diff --git "a/dev/dev/bnc_spoken.dev" "b/dev/dev/bnc_spoken.dev" new file mode 100644--- /dev/null +++ "b/dev/dev/bnc_spoken.dev" @@ -0,0 +1,130000 @@ +Doctor 's obviously a more frugal character than me because he had this room and the radiator was turned off. +I have turned it on and it is doing its little best but our guests from the south are obviously +I'll, I'll +sequins, it sounds like Come Dancing . +Oh I don't know I'm sure say anything rude. +No honest. +Do they? +some voices aren't allowed to er appear. +Are you still in here? +It it's okay carry on it's alright I'm, I +Right. +Okay I'm sorry I haven't had level three supervision groups before so this is a whole new experience for me +Well we're very high powered you know +Chris has given me my instructions so +Oh no +I'm supposed to first say is th are you finding the course okay and to ask you about your projects. +So course okay so far? +supervisor. +So Mike have you got your project sorted out? +Well it's more or less in hand, yeah. +What what you're doing? +Yeah +With Stewart? +yeah. +So is it just a continuation of what you've done anyway? +Well more or less but he weren't amused at any of the results so +Oh I see right. +I've got to start again . +That's rotten. +So are y are you just do +No it's quite fair actually. +are you just doing are you just doing one er sorry j er are you just doing one project a t a two term project? +Yeah. +Right so you're s you're sorted out. +Charles what are you doing? +Er I'm doing something on wild salmon. +Oh right. +Who, who are you er with? +Er with Gordon. +? +Yeah. +Oh right, so what are you, tell us about it, what are you going to do? +Erm well Alex and I are both doing it but Alex has got his own rivers so he's doing it on his own sort of thing +Alex +and er I'm I'm, think I'm doing mine more sort of related to er the eggs. +Right. +So where +Well sort of looking in that, that s er on the Tyne. +Oh right. +So I mean is this eggs that are put in by the, I mean I +Er yeah I think it will have something to do with that, yeah. +I've sort of er I've +So are you just doing a lit is it, is it a two term project as well? +Yeah. +And you're just starting a research? +Yeah. +Right. +I've started that, I've gotta, just gotta I went and played on the computers yesterday. +You went what? +And played on the computers yesterday +Oh right, oh right. +Have you all, by the way have you all tried this C D rom thing +Mm +in the library? +It's quite fun. +It's quite fun, have you tried that? +Yeah that's what I tried yesterday. +Has anyone got anything useful out of it yet? +No it's +Yeah I know but they're not exactly over run with them are they? +in the library or down here we have to do +Have you got to be more specific with your requests? +I haven't tried it. +Well probably but it do it s I mean it, you either put in I, I mean I most, most +You're doing +most of the things that I've done have been on Atlantic salmon and you put in Atlantic salmon and you get seven thousand eight hundred +Yeah. +and forty abstracts out +Right +forget that. +And you narrow it down and you get zero. +Oh right, right. +Right, so you've got to play about with the system a bit more? +I think so I think so. +Right. +ASFA I think it's more helpful I think than C D rom isn't it? +What's the difference between ASFA and C D rom? +It's spelt different. +No but ASFA is just on the scientific end + +Oh. +You can ask him if it's alright to keep you in your tablets. +I'm going to start . +I tell you when I was in here it was just keeping calm. +And I'd no been to bloody. +Aye well Nothing Doctor can do, +I know but he . +He would need to go up and see . +Doctor +Ah. +What's up with young John today? +Oh my Strathclyde Hospital on Wednesday, +Aha. +and they er sort of X-rayed me, took a urine sample, took a blood sample, er Doctor +Aha. +He examined me. +Erm he f he found, know how they were wrong about a slight murmur on my heart? +Mhm. +He couldn't find it. +He says it could have been anxiety +Mhm. +or +hospital +Aye just +So there was nothing really +nothing to worry about. +Good. +I'm delighted to hear that. +But he did say that er it'll take three weeks before he can get back to me about sending me to the Law +Mhm. +He says that, see the biopsy and the other? +Yeah. +He says that I might not need to get it right? +Because he, he'll be able to tell off my blood. +Mhm. +So he, he's still to decide about that. +Yeah. +Right. +Aye, and he also agreed with you about the lump in my back. +Mhm. +Right? +Yeah. +And he s he said the same as you, that er +If it's not bothering you, leave it alone. +Aye. +Said the exact same as you. +Oh aye. +Och aye. +It's not, not sensible. +Now then. +Here you are young John. +Honestly, I'm gutted with this cold the noo, could you give me +Mhm. +Yeah, +something for it? +sure. +How're you doing with the, the drink? +Oh. +I have my good days and bad days. +How many good ones and how bad ones? +during the day. +Too many bad ones. +I just cannae seem to get off it at all. +Well, keep it down as low as you can because the lower you keep it, the less chance there is of getting this biopsy done. +I thought they were just going to X-ray me back, but they X-rayed everything. +Oh they would do. +They done the lot, +Yeah. +front, back, side. +Yeah. +Oh aye. +There you are John, And +Right. +that'll get you rid of that. +Doctor +Aye, we're really worried about him now. +He's getting worse. +Aye. +I mean see last night, we went to bed last night, he came in at noon didn't he? +I'm moving out. +I'm moving out, I'm going to go stay at me granny's. +I cannae stick my dad. +I'm just, I'm just moving out and er I just cannae cope any more. +They're +Mhm. +everybody's talking about me. +Mhm. +I mean I, see the tablets you gave him? +Mhm. +I've got them. +Mhm. +I'm actually scared. +He's threatened, just a couple of times to take an overdose. +I'm scared to too +Mhm. +Right. +too many at the one you know what I mean? +He's seeing Doctor and +I was wondering if you'd heard anything from Doctor ? +Doctor what, if that happens Doctor says that the next time he wants to see us along with him. +Mhm. +Yeah yeah. +Because he's worrying us. +Yeah. +See I don't know if it's just part real or if he's just trying to frighten me. +Mhm. +It could be. +This i this is the thing, with youngsters like that, you never know. +I mean he doesn't want for nothing, he gets as much as I can give him. +It's nothing it's nothing to do +He's got, he's got everything he could want. +Aye, it's nothing to do with wanting. +I mean see my see my next door neighbours, they're good +Mhm. +neighbours aren't they? +We don't even take any money off him for keep +Aye. +or anything like that. +And he came in +let him keep everything. +he's sitting he's sitting in the living room on Sunday night. +Now these new wheely-bins, you take a turn each. +Mhm. +I'll just take the two, and Billy'll take them out the next week. +Mhm. +But on Sunday night we weren't in, and Billy looked in the kitchen. +We were at a night out. +He must have looked in the kitchen window. +Just to see +Mhm. +whether to take the bins out or not. +But our John was sitting reading the paper. +He's got a, they're all talking about me, he says they're listening at the walls or standing in the clossies +Mhm. +I mean the things he's coming away with aren't real. +Aye. +Why is he seeing Doctor ? +He's . +He's gonna see him again, don't get me wrong, Doctor said he'll send for the both of us, right? +Mhm. +But he's getting to the point where I'm ready for saying to him away you go down to your granny's right, but my mam cannae live with him either. +No no. +Cos she's the same way. +She's phoning me. +She +I think Doctor only sits once a month, and +Oh no. +No. +No. +Every week. +Is it every week? +Is it? +Mhm. +I thought it was only once a month. +No. +See when he's thing, you see when he's er down at his granny's, my mummy and my daddy are actually talking round about him trying to kid on that they're, they're ignoring him. +They they try to ignore him. +Know what I mean? +Mm. +Right. +I'll get on to him and we'll soon get this . +See I cannae walk by a bus stop. +There're two people at a bus stop, they two people's talking about him. +Yeah. +The night that they brought him up here. +A man walked in and he says hello to John and that and how's it going and that, he came into see you and I sat, I mean I came in +Mhm. +out of the road, what's that man saying about me? +Aye I heard him saying how do you put up with an arsehole like that? +Thinks, he's paranoid. +He thinks everybody's talking about him. +Aye. +You know what I mean? +But this has just come on. +Mhm. +Oh aye. +This is how it comes. +This is how it comes, just +And I mean I'm not wanting to make up any . +Ah but Doctor , it's plain to you, John's +It may be the best thing for him. +John has been put under psychologist because he was slow at school right? +Aha. +Aye. +And this is the start. +This is what's in his head. +He's no equal with anybody else. +Yet +Ah. +he is cos we paid dear. +Yes yes yes. +But this is the thing, if he doesn't go there, if he needs to go there and he doesn't go there, he's going to get worse. +Aye. +Aye. +I mean he's going to get worse and worse and worse. +See, the way I feel I've, it's not a case +She even thinks +I know there was +see because he w he was slow, he had trouble with learning +Mhm. +at school, right? +Mhm. +See he +S he thinks that all the ones that were at school with him are s talking +about him. +Mhm. +That's right +Still yet. +that's what he said, the first night he came in. +Aye. +The f the thing is if he needs to go in for treatment, he's only going to get worse if he doesn't get it. +But he'll say to me +I said that and all. +But as I, like you know John when he talks about it. +If they found out +I'm up there like I'm just going to stay up there, I'm never mind to come back here. +Do you know, she went to the bingo yesterday her mother, right? +For that day out at the bingo with her mam. +And er he roa er he ranted for three hours too. +Mhm. +Kept repeating himself and, right? +Yeah. +And I'm sitting watching the telly trying to watch a film. +Tell him what happened with the police +the police a fortnight ago. +I had to send for the police. +Mm. +Because he didn't +I thought he was I thought he was going to do something to himself. +Or smash up the house or something. +See he smashed up the house on Christmas day. +Aha. +But he never +For no reason at all, +Aye. +right. +Er then he, he, I sent for the police because he walked out the door and he, he threatened to kill himself. +I had to get the police to get him back. +See and I don't know whether he's tormenting us, or whether he's +Oh, you never know. +You cannae take the chance. +And I've got every tablet. +Even his. +Mhm. +I've got of them all. +You can't, I mean there's, there's no way you can take a chance on it, Flora. +I mean if he's just +I mean he's, he's the only kid we've got, and he's been +Aye. +spoilt, you know what I mean? +It's no as if we've +Doesn't, doesn't matter who it is. +Doesn't matter what age they are. +I mean, we've had them doing this at eight year old. +Aye. +And I've seen them doing this right up till they're in their eighties. +Do you think if I, do you think if I gave him a fright,s see the, time he says he's going off to his granny's and I say away you go, and my mam says she's not taking him. +Would you would you like to take the chance? +No. +I wouldn't either. +I know he's starting all these things, see his computers and that? +S maybe if I says to him away you go to your granny's and then and you're not taking anything with you. +No? +No. +It's not worth the risk Flora. +If he did anything +Well that night he walked out I was wasn't I? +Mhm. +And he must have been, I've a feeling he was standing somewhere bloody well +Watching you. +Aye. +watching me. +Yeah. +Oh aye. +I mean,i if he, if you said something like that to him and he went away and he didn't turn up for two or three days, you would never live with yourself. +Maybe that +Exactly. +Oh no. +No no. +Ju hold on. +Leave it with me. +I'll get in touch with Doctor . +Hope we'll get it organized as quick as we can. +Right, thanks Doctor . +Okay? +Right. +Right, thanks Doctor. +Okay, right Flora. +Right. +Don't do anything +I wouldn't. +Aye. +o okay. +Right then. +Right. +Right, cheerio now. + +Right can you have a look at those Just have at the answers to this. +Did you find any difficulties at all? +N no I don't . +It looks all right from here. +Yeah. +Keep the tracing paper if you need it. +That's all right. +yes that's okay that's fine. +Hang on. +Oh yes alright from there. +How did you come to that conclusion? +What ? +the petrol station the petrol station, isn't it? +Mm. +Mm five minutes. +It's five minutes and fifteen. +I misread the . +That's okay. +in the first fifteen minutes of the journey Yeah er What's fifteen minutes as part of an hour? +Quarter of a hour. +Quarter of an hour. +That's point two five. +Mm. +You can't +Mm. +You can't have time as a decimal, time is not a decimal. +Mm. +Okay? +I can't remember what it's called it's in sixties whatever that is. +Mhm. +Yeah. +S Time is not a decimal so you can't operate time as a decimal. +Nobody ever used to make that mistake at one time you know why? +No. +Because everything worked was wasn't in decimal. +Mm. +All the distances were in twelves +Mm. +and for and weights were in fourteens so +Aha. +nobody ever thought about anything being a decimal. +Mhm. +So nobody had any problems with that. +No of course that everything's de- you know everything's decimal time +Yeah. +becomes quite an awkward calculation. +It didn't used to be. +It didn't. not been interrupted. +same constant speed. +So you work the same the constant speed. +. +Yeah w shouldn't matter , +yeah. +that's fine. +Aha. +Doesn't make any difference at all that doesn't. +Erm so you would have done er yeah then you've got You've got your speed of distance over time correctly. +Mm. +Or time is distance over speed. +It's all right, but you've then gone that's not nought point two five minutes the speed's per hour. +Isn't it? +Mm. +The speed is per hour isn't it? +So that would have been point two five which should have been fifteen minutes. +Yes that's sixtieth of an hour +Which is point two five of an hour. +Be very careful with your +Mm. +units. +Yeah. +That's +Mm. +The calculation's fine what you've done's fine just mucked +Put the wrong +the units up. +Yeah. +Right? +So that's How many minutes earlier? +Now you've not done that you've actually done his journey time . +Mm. +Mm? +So careful read the question. +You must read the question! +Alright, how're you getting on with them? +Or have I stopped you? +Didn't know what I'm supposed to be doing with that . +Your supposed to be doing them rotate them through Do this one first. +How do you mean them? +Hundred and eighty degree rotation around C. +doing it Do you mean drawing it on Using this drawing it? +Yeah. +You've done rotations and reflections and so forth haven't you? +Mm. +Mhm. +that rotated a hundred and eighty degrees about that. +Mm. +brought it by isn't it? +But I know what to do I don't know what you want me to do. +I want it I want it shown as a hundred and eighty degree rotation. +There's an exam question Rotate that +Yeah. +about that point the hu Through a hundred and eighty degrees . +Mm. +four. +What your not so Fine. +Yeah. +Okay yes good. +That's alright. +Use the patterns to write down the A three. +A Three is that that that that that. +A four Lets have a look. +Is it done? +No I haven't done anything yet I'm on . +Look +I can't do it! +I can't . +You haven't done rotations have you? +Yeah I have but I don't how to do them like this I've not seen it been d drawn out like that. +Right draw something from the centre of rotation to the the figure. +Mm. +Rotate that bit through a hundred and eighty degrees where's it go? +Over here. +Over there. +There's a hundred +Yes. +and eighty innit? +Trace the original. +Yes. +Mm. +Round the centre of rotation it to the spoke while she's up the other spoke. +Dum. +Mm. +Mm? +Right? +Yeah. +Yeah. +it's as simple as that. +Isn't it? +. +Go on then. +as if you've drawn. +Have you got a pencil? +No I was looking at the other one. +No I want it actually done I want you +to physically do 'em . +Right erm +So they go into your brain +Mm. +via your eyes and and +finger ends and so forth. +Mhm. +Okay? +Mhm. +I suppose I should put Nyah Right okay simultaneous equations. +Yeah. +With some degree of er success I trust this time. +I think I messed number one up. +Ah dear. +Yes you did. +You know why? +No. +You made the classic mistake the only mistake there is here you multiply everything by two +Mm. +So that's twenty six. +Mm. +That's the only I mean that's th that's the real problem with this thing It's one the the difficulties you end up with You see you must remember to multiply everything that's there by the number you want to multiply, not just half of it. +And that's all the problem is. +I think I've done the others right. +Yes that looks alright. +Yeah. +Well you can always tell can't you? +How do you tell? +St st st just stick +Go back and check it +the numbers back in. +Just put the numbers back in. +Yeah it's alright. +Yeah it's alright. +You see you managed to plough through these quite r readily did you? +Sort of. +Ah. +What on earth's that question? +Two A plus +Oh it's an A is it? +Oh I beg your pardon sorry +I changed it to . +That's al that's alright that's alright I'm with that. +I understand what you're doing it's a substitution. +It's a little like As and Bs. +Er it doesn't make any difference does it? +No but I'm used to Xs and Ys. +Yes but A Yeah that's alright erm except for examples we where do up to? +Ten. +Up to ten. +Yes. +Have a go at fourteen and sixteen. +Whilst I sit here and admire your expertise and +Ha. +general facility at this subject. +Mm. +And say to yourself +Nine seven nine C plus +Yep. +Or four Y minus minus nine. +Yeah. +Which is probably as good. +Thirteen. +Thirteen is right. +twenty six +That's okay. +Y equals +Y equals What're you gonna do? +Divide it. +Yeah, whoa. +Right it's two isn't it? +Mm. +Okay. +Substitute that back in . +Yes that's right. +Yes. +Do number seventeen. +But I haven't done sixteen. +Just do number seventeen I fancy seventeen better than number sixteen. +Mhm, you would. +I know. +I have this great in-built desire to make people suffer. +There's an easier way of doing it isn't there? +What get rid of the Ys? +Yes. +Mm. +Suppose so. +Yeah there is is There's an awful lot of suppose so about that you only gonna do one set of calculations rather than two aren't you? +Yeah. +You must look at this from the minimum of Point of view of the minimum amount of labour. +Yeah. +Equals twenty six. +No it doesn't. +I beg your pardon yes it does.. +Mm. +Yes it does. +You're right. +That's right. +and X equals +Thirty three. +Yeah. +Alright we need to bother a I know you I know you can do substitution. +Yeah thing about it is though when you're looking at this, you wanna be looking as to which is the Produces the smallest numbers. +mm. +And which produces the minimum amount of manipulation and that was that the second one wasn't it? +Yeah. +You had much less to do than anything else. +Mm. +Right that's unfortunate. +That I l I've forgotten to bring the other work. +However. +Can I Can I just interrupt and say I've forgotten . +I'm sorry is that enough? +Yes. +thank you. +Eye's funny. +Yeah. +Now look it asks you for a certain number of things It says As The average doesn't it? +How +Yes. +Do you work t an average? +Average is all the tests added together +Yeah, +divide by the number of tests he had. +That's right. +So what's the total for all his test? +Hundred and twenty six. +Hundred and twenty six how many tests had he had? +X. +X. +So the average is going to be? +Hundred and twenty five divide by x. +Hundred an Is it a hundred and twenty five? +twenty six. +Hundred and twenty six divided by X is that. +Yeah. +So what's difficult about that? +Nothing. +So. +Now there's another two tests. +Yeah. +So what's the total now? +Hundred and twenty eight divide by +Where's a hundred and twenty eight come from? +What's the total marks for the next two tests? +Oh. +You're told what the marks are for the next two tests aren +Oh nine and eight. +Nine and eight aren't they? +Yeah. +So what's the total marks for the Now for the the tests? +How many marks you got all together? +Hundred and twenty thirty forty forty two . +Mm. +What's a hundred and twenty six plus nine? +No! +What's a hundred and twenty six plus nine? +Come on what's nine add six ? +Hundred and thirty six. +O What's nine add six? +Eleven. +Nine add six? +Oh Fourteen. +And another one. +Six +fifteen yeah? +Yes. +Six and nine it's always one less when innit when you're adding nine? +So it's fifteen do it's a hundred and twenty six plus nine is? +hundred and thirty forty. +I want a hundred and twenty six plus nine! +Oh a hundred and twenty a hundred and thirty five. +Hundred and thirty five. +What's five and eight? +Not +Thirteen. +Thirteen so the answer's gonna be a hundred and? +Forty three. +Hundred and forty three. +You know what the a en end number's gonna be every time i Don't you? +Yeah. +Mm. +Hundred and forty three. +That's right so the total's a hundred and forty three. +So what's the what's the average gonna be or even the mean? +Hundred and forty three divide by +By +X plus two. +Splendid. +Can we have it written down like real mathematicians? +Ah wonderful. +Wonderful. +hundred and forty five. +Yes No I said a hundred and forty +Forty three +three yes. +Over +Divide by X plus two . +plus two that's right. +Now what's the next part of the question say? +If if a If his average for the first X test was one greater than his average for +X plus two tests . +plus two tests . +Use results of one and two +To form the equation and find the value of X. +Now what it just said think of another way of saying that. +Work out what X is. +No you can't work out what X is you haven't got a c hope of working out wh +Form an equation. +Form an equation. +But what's one side of the equation going to be? +Hundred and twenty six divide by X. +Plus? +Hundred and fort +No no +plus two +No no read what it says. +If his average for the first X tests is one greater than the average Sorry beg your pardon I've got it round me round me neck. +If his average for the first X t is one greater than his average for the X plus two tests So a hundred and twenty six over X is gonna equal? +What he got in the first +O in the second lot isn't it? +Plus one. +Mm. +Yes. +So right it down. +Yeah come on! +Just write it down! +Hundred and twen +What? +What I've just told you hundred and twenty six over X is equal? +Hundred and forty three +Three +divide by X plus two +Yeah. +Plus one. +Yes. +Plus one. +Why is it plus one there? +Cos it's says it's This is one more than that isn't it? +This is one more than that. +So shouldn't that be plus one? +How do you make them equal? +Oh yeah. +Yes think about it carefully. +How do you make them equal. +Mm. +That's right so. +Now what are you going to do? +Find the value of X. +I'm an extremely patient soul as you well know,but if you say Find the value of X to me again How are you gonna find the value of X? +What do you intend to do? +Get rid of the denominators. +Get rid of the denominators, good. +Well done. +Go on then. +Is that right? +No. +What're you doing? +What're you doing? +Timesing it by X. +Alright then times it by X. +Go on then if that's what you're doing go on. +Keep going! +Hold on a minute you've still got a this on the bottom haven't you? +To start with come on. +Cos your multiplying by X go on you haven't cancelled it yet go on. +Carry on. +Eh? +What are you doing? +You can't do that! +Why? +Multiply everything by X go on. +Ju just do every term you've got multiply it by X. +Go on. +I don't know how to do it though. +Course you do! +Just carry on multiplying things by X instead of trying to jump to conclusions. +Where's the two X come from? +Times it by +But you've got that over th on the bottom haven't you? +It's X plus two there, isn't it? +It's got nothing to do when multiplying You're multiplying the top by X go on. +That's better. +That's right perfect. +Go on then, get some stuff cancelled out. +That's right. +No. +There's no way you can do that. +But I've got an X on the top. +Aye but you've got an X plus two on the bottom. +So if I put X minus two on the top? +No it will not cancel. +Why not? +You've got a hundred and forty three X over X plus two, haven't you? +Hundred and forty three minus two. +Hundred and forty does not work. +There's no way that works at all. +Just do what you've got there. +Write a hundred and twenty six. +Write a hundred and twenty six. +That's right, equals. +Hundred and forty three X over X plus two. +That's right. +Plus X. +That's perfect now what are you going to do? +Can I move across That across to this side? +You can multiply everything through by X plus two, yes. +Go on. +Bracket, X plus two never mind about this s Mm. +Equals that plus Come on you're multiplying by X plus two. +No you're multiplying by X plus two. +You've missed a You've now dropped a plus sign out haven't you? +And you've dropped an X out. +Why? +You're multiplying this term by X plus two aren't you? +You're +Mm. +gonna multiply everything by X plus X plus two. +It just so happens that if multiply this term by X plus two you get rid of the X plus two at the bottom don't you? +Mm. +But everything there It's the same thing as when you were doing this. +The simultaneous equations wasn't it? +Why was it? +You had to me s make sure that you multiply every term out, haven't you? +Yeah. +So here you've got to multiply every term out. +Do not forget that that is a term on its own it's got n connected to this yet. +No. +You're a very very careful about that so start getting it tidied up then. +Expand the brackets I think is probably the best thing. +Hundred and twenty six X +S X that's right. +Plus two hundred and fifty two. +Equals +Hundred and forty three X +X +Plus +X squared +X squared plus two X. +That's right. +Right now things are getting a bit better aren't they? +Come on! +What're you gonna do now? +Do all the Xs on one side. +Well I'd collect the things together that were the same for a start I think. +What d'you mean? +Well you've got some Xs to collect together haven't you? +Oh. +Mm? +That's better. +That's simplified it. +Yeah. +Now s You can start you've still gotta get the every I would get everything over to one side of the equals sign. +Why? +What's this ? +Then use your quadratic . +This is a quadratic isn't it? +Yes good. +Does it matter which way you put it? +Well I always like to read it from left to right but it doesn't matter really. +Yeah but I mean +you can do that if you want to. +I would have put all the the er +Hundred and forty five X minus hundred and twenty six X . +Yes. +Plus x squared minus two five two +Minus two five two. +Equals nothing. +Yes. +So that's going to be +Don't look at me like that! +Nineteen X. +Mhm. +Plus X squared. +Yeah. +Minus two five two . +minus two five two Equals nothing . +Equals nothing that's right. +Now if you're gonna do this you really want it in the form of X squared first don't you?really to make it To make the thing easy to work, aren't you? +Well that's gonna be your A. +Yeah it is. +B and that's gonna be C . +It's much be It's much better to see it as A square As X squared plus te nineteen X plus minus two two five, really. +Two five two equals nothing. +Right. +Formula. +I don't know. +You're gonna have some tremendously large numbers if you work the formula aren't you? +Yes. +I mean B squared's nineteen squares you know just under four hundred isn't it? +That's twenty times twenty. +You imagine four times that. +A lot. +It's a lot isn't it? +But they're only numbers. +that's true. +But perhaps it's easier I wonder what are other factors of two hundred and fifty two? +One. +One and two hundred and fifty two, yes very good yes. +Two. +Yes good. +We want a difference of nineteen somewhere don't we? +That's easy. +We drop the calculator everywhere. +Well you can drop the calculator if you want it would be better if you pick 'em up and stick the numbers in. +How're you gonna do? +Two hundred and fifty two divide by nineteen. +What you got? +Thirteen point two six three one five +Yes. +seven nine eight. +Yes. +I don't think that's right. +Try the square root of two five two. +Fifteen point eight seven four five +Yes yes ,a difference. +Don't know does sixteen go into it just try sixteen into two five two. +Fifteen point seven five. +So we want something like erm Seven and sixteen, well that doesn't work Sorry seven and twenty six. +Is that right? +No. +How about +No, gives a difference of nineteen. +Use the formula then, we're just sitting here wasting time. +Minus nineteen or minus B plus or minus the square root of B +Minus B +Plus or minus +plus or minus the square root of +the square root of B squared +plus +No. +Minus +Minus two B C +Minus four A C +Four A C +All over +Two A. +Two A is right. +So what's A? +It's an X! +Must be true. +Yes. +I am delighted you agree. +Yeah. +Minus nineteen +Yes. +plus or minus +The square root of nineteen squared minus four times +nineteen squared minus four times +one +one +times +times two +No It's not times two five minus two five two . +times minus two five two +Lovely. +All over +Over two +Two times one. +Yep. +X squared. +X equals not X squared. +Minus nineteen plus or minus +plus or minus Can I do that +Root +all in one? +Yeah! +I can do it on here, oops! +Hope so. +Square root of nineteen squared minus four times times minus +Minus +two five two. +Answer. +Nineteen squared's three hundred and ninety ninety one I think. +Mm. +Three hundred and sixty one. +Really? +Three sixty one times eight thousand There's summat wrong. +Nineteen squared minus four times one +No it's minus It's plus It's nineteen squared plus eight nought one nought nought eight. +Mm. +Four time two five two. +Two hundred and fifty times four is a thousand Two hundred and fift +It's minus! +It's minus times a minus Isn't it? +Four +four times two th two five two is one thousand and eight isn't it? +Yes. +Two fifty times four is a thousand. +So two five two times four is t one thousand and eight, plus three hundred and chunkety chunk Three hundred and sixty one. +Mm. +Which is one three six nine. +That's more like it. +Yeah but what about mm. +above answer. +Mm. +What about that? +Where do get that from? +Because what you did was you did er nineteen squared +Yes. +minus four. +I don't know why I don't how that works +Would that be in brackets? +Of course it is. +I didn't put a brackets there. +Well you would have to although I would have though it might have worked algebraically that's certainly wrong though. +What did we say? +One three six nine . +Nine. +One three six nine, yes. +All over +Er you want the square root of that. +that's it all over two. +Two. +Yep, so it's minus nineteen plus or minus +Plus or minus +root one three six nine. +Square root +One three six nine. +That's interesting. +Ah! +Yes go on. +Yeah it is isn't it? +Yes. +Go on then. +You'll remember that. +I will. +Thirty seven. +So the f One answer is f fourteen +Don't! +Just don't! +It's not actually. +One answer's nine innit? +Minus nought point five? +Yeah. +And the other answer is? +Can you tell me how managed to produce nought point five, how you managed to produce that? +Don't know. +Minus nineteen plus thirty seven without the aid of a calculator must be about eighteen mustn't it? +Mm. +The difference between thirty seven and nineteen's about eighteen innit? +Approximately? +Divide that by two, answer? +Nine. +Nine. +Mm. +Engage brain Th You must regard a calculator +with the greatest and gravest of suspicion. +Cos it's not actually working algebraic that calculator at the present moment I don't know what you've got it programmed in What you've got it at but it's not working algebraic. +Now it might work. +No unless we have to Minus nineteen minus thirty seven divide by two minus twenty eight? +Yeah that's better. +I wonder if minus. +Wait you've got minus fifty six haven't you here? this is minus fifty six if you use your brain. +And divided by two is minus twenty eight. +Yeah. +Yes minus twenty eight. +Now if you You take the difference between nineteen and thirty seven you get the answer eighteen don't you? +Yes. +You divide that by two you get the answer nine . +Nine. +Mm. +But why isn't my calculator working? +Because you haven't got it in the correct mode it's not working algebraic. +Which is in what function? +Who knows what your calculator and that's a such a wonderful piece of work that. +Yeah but +Scie Scientific or You want it in scientific mode if it says scientific +Yeah it does. +In that case use it in scientific and then it will work that way. +Will it? +Yeah well it should do. +Anyway. +. +Okay. +Let's read the second part of this question cos it's taken us er quite some time to do it but excellent question. +Hasn't it +Right +Right let's read the second part of this. +It has an average of thirteen point five marks for the first X plus one tests. +His mark on the last test gave him a final average of fourteen marks for X plus two tests. +What was his marks for the last test. +How do you work out his total marks for his X plus one tests. +Thirteen point five divided by X plus one. +That's his No no you've got his average as thirteen point five haven't you? +How do you work out his total marks which is what we're really looking for? +Times X plus +Yes, it's thirteen point five times X plus one. +And how do you work out his total marks for his X plus two tests? +Fourteen times thirteen plus two. +No no no. +Why? +Fourteen times what? +Times X plus two. +Yeah. +That's what I said! +Was it? +I'm sorry I misheard you. +So what it's alright. +Mm. +I misheard you okay? +Mm. +So, it might be a good idea to write that down and work it out. +Thirteen point five +Yes +times +Will you stop doing that! +What? +That! +What's wrong with it? +How do you write a multiplication in algebra? +You're gonna multiply that by X plus one aren't you? +Mm. +How do you write that? +Hundred and thirty five X plus one. +Bracket. +X plus one. +X plus one. +Ha? +Suppose so. +That's how you write it. +Minus fourteen +Never mind about this silliness, that +you've been allowed to get away with. +Right go and work them out then. +Thirteen point five times one is? +Thirteen point five innit? +Yeah. +Mm. +That's right. +Okay. +So what's your total marks? +Sorry what's the difference? +Fourteen point five. +You know what he total mark for his X plus one test was don't you? +Mm. +And you know the total mark was X plus two tests. +It actually asks you for the mark he obtained for his final tests doesn't it? +Yeah. +So if you take two away, one from the other, you'll have the mark +Nought point five. +for his test won't you? +So you'll have nought point five X plus? +Plus +Point about it is y you can't see it, can you unless you've got it written down so write it down. +it's thirteen well it's fourteen X isn't it? +Mm. +Plus twenty eight minus thirteen point five X minus thirteen point five isn't it? +Or minus thirteen X plus thirteen point five isn't it? +Why is it? +Well you're taking the difference between the two aren't you? +So don't you just minus them? +Yeah. +So that's fourteen X plus twenty eight minus thirteen point five X minus thirteen point five isn't it? +Yes? +Mm. +So that's nought point five X, now what? +Plus +Plus what's the difference here? +Hundred and thir Hundred +What's twenty eight minus thirteen point five? +Oh it's point five! +Yes. +What's twenty eight minus thirteen poin +Fourteen point five. +Fourteen point five. +Okay. +So wouldn't +That's +you times it by two? +Another student has his average as thirteen point five marks for the first blah blah blah, right. +Which marks for the last test give a final average of fourteen marks for So the one test is gonna give him that isn't it? +That's right you agree isn't it? +That's his total marks for X plus one tests, is there. +Total marks for S plus plus two tests is there. +The actual mark is that. +That's for his nought nought point five X. +So to get those two up to one X +up to one X you should times by two which is twenty nine. +Which I don't believe. +Well do you times it by four? +No give but his mark on his last test gave him the final average of fourteen marks for X plus two tests. +So that's his total there and his total there. +Yes it's gonna be doubled hasn't it to give you that? +Oh! +Oh dear! +How daft can you get? +What's the value of X? +W we worked that out somewhere didn't we? +We did didn't we? +Oh! +Oh! +Nearly as bad as . +Dear oh dear! +Eh? +Oh. +Innit? +I'm very tired . +So what do you do? +Times thirteen point five X by +Well you do thirteen point five times ten if you want. +Yes. +And fourteen times eleven. +Why eleven? +Well nine plus two is eleven isn't it? +Yes. +Hundred and fifty four. +Now who is being dormant? +And you've got it haven't you? +Then you find the difference? +Yes. +That makes sense. +actually work here hasn't it? +Does that give you the same answer? +Yes it should do. +Let's just check it go on. +You had thirteen point five times ten which I think is a hundred and thirty five in normal circumstances. +Yes. +And a hundred and f fourteen times eleven. +Go on it's a hundred and fifty four. +Minus nineteen. +No minus a hundred and thirty five. +One fifty four minus hundred and thirty five. +Nineteen. +Nineteen. +Which is wh what we would have done if we'd done +If we'd done +that better. +Yeah but it we it's a spurious argument because you've got nought point five X haven't you? +Yeah. +Nought point five X i Nought point five of X i is four point five isn't it/ +Yeah. +Four point five plus fourteen point five Answer? +Nineteen. +Nineteen. +We actually got it right both ways. +But it would have been simpler to have done it that way I think. +And quicker. +And quicker. +But not as entertaining. +Yes. +Not as entertaining. +Mm. +If you like. +Yes. +They have a tendency to ask questions not quite as comp Not quite as abstract as that. +Intricate. +Not even intric Not quite as abstract cos th the the tendency is to ask the question The average weight of nine people is whatever it is, you know somebody else has added +Yeah questions. +Yeah yeah. +Rather than quite as abstract as that But you can cope with abstract as that you can do A level. +Yeah. +You have to cope +You have to You have to be as abstract as that. +Which will not do you any harm. +Good. +A man bought three box of Dutch cigars. +Good lord how appalling in this day and age! +Three boxes! +At X pence per box, and two boxes of Havana cigars at Y pence per box. +Calculate terms of X and Y +Cost of the five boxes. +So what's the cost of the Dutch ones? +How many boxes? +Three X. +Splendid. +What's the cost of the Havanas? +Two Y. +So what's the total cost? +Five X two Y. +Eh? +Five X plus two Y. +Five X plus two Y not just five x two Y. +Plus two Y. +Five X plus two Y. +Wonderful. +Go on +the average cost per box in terms of X and Y. +So what's the average b cost per box gonna be?five X plus two Y you better write that down before our brains refuse to accept any more information. +Two Y is the total cost, how do you find the average? +How do you find an average? +Add them together and divide by the number you've got. +How many have you got. +Five. +No you haven't. +We've got five boxes. +No you haven't got five boxes. +Why? +Read it again. +Three boxes of Dutch +Whoops! +That's supposed to be three X . +That's a three. +Yes that's better. +So you haven't got +. +F Divide that by five. +Divide that by five. +Yes. +The whole of it? +Yeah. +Cos that's the total price isn't? +Total cost. +Total of boxes you mean. +Total cost. +Five's the total number of boxes but that the top one's the total cost isn't it? +Yea. +That's right. +Yep. +Yes. +Oh.. +At a profit of thirty three percent of their costs . +How do +Thir +work that out? +Thirty three and a third percent is a third. +Yes. +So I want a third of their their costs. +So what did he sell the Dutch box +Which is the Dutch which is that half. +Well,later he sold his three boxes of Dutch cigars at a profit of thirty three of their cost. +Mm? +So +So that's three X divided by +No it's not three X divided by five, it's says of their cost. +Thy cost three X didn't they? +Yes. +And the sold them for a third profit so what did he sell them for? +X plus a third. +If he sold the things for +Four +thirt Aye. +Four thirds. +No. +I if +If he's got +he bought them for three quid? +Yes. +Yeah/ Which is highly improbable but he bought them for three pounds +Yes. +In the days when a gold sovereign meant something when you went abroad +Yes. +And he sold them that was his cost was three pounds. +And he h He sold them at a profit of thirty three and a third percent which is a third. +What did he sell them for? +Four pounds. +Four quid. +So if he +four X. +No if he cost him three X, what's he gonna sell them for? +Four X. +Yes. +So he sells his Dutch s cigars for four x. +When he only bought them for three X? +That's right. +So he sold them for four X. +Yeah. +Then what did he do with his havanas? +HE gave away the other two boxes as presents. +Strange man. +A strange fellow. +Well no it probably a little bit of sweetener for a business deal later one perhaps? +Mm. +Yes. +I used to get bottles of whisky at Christmas and so forth. +And we stole it . +Yes you now what it m Yes you know all about that? +Yes. +Yes. +So it's a box of h s Havana cigars. +So how much profit did he make on that? +He didn't did he? +He made +absolutely no profit at all, in fact he made a loss of? +Two X. +Two Y. +Yes two Y. +Yeah. +Calculate the amount he received for the sale of the cigars. + +Come in. +Hello. +Hello what can we +do for you sir? +It's this shoulder stuffed up again. +Having trouble again? +Aye. +headaches +Mhm. +you know they're getting worse and worse and worse. +I think it's the . +Wasn't it or something you gave me? +Yes. +Oh. +That was January. +Oh aye. +Right . +But now it's actually spread you know th the pain seems to be spread all right up here. +? +Aye. +Ah. +Well that's right enough what I thought. +It's been a neural neuralgia right enough. +Mm. +It's when I go to lie down at night you know that's it. +and then the headaches just start. +You know? +When, when you were taking the was it better? +No. +No change at all? +No. +No change. +No. +No change at all. +Right. +I don't want to give you anything that's gonna knock you silly or +Mm. +dopey with it or anything like that. +Mm . +I want to get the right sort of thing for you. +You know I'm going around lightheaded with it y you know and dizzy with it you know? +Yeah. +Tt er +been reading too much in this Sunday Post. +She's got me this and that and all the rest of it you know? +Mm. +But I don't know what you've got without waiting for any I +couldn't tell you. +I couldn't tell you. +It's er +I'm still trying to give up the cigarettes you know? +I got those patches. +So Mm. +Do these patches seem alright though? +Have you seen ? +Yes. +Aye and they're +Oh. +Patches are fine. +Are they? +Aye. +There's nothing wrong with them. +It's very difficult to do er two things at the same time. +Mm. +Very difficult if you've got, and you know giving up is fine +Mm. +if you haven't got a broken ankle or a sore, sore +Mhm. +shoulder or +No. +headaches or, fine. +Mm. +do it. +No. +But when you've got something else that's hard. +Mm. +That's hard. +Mm. +Even with the patches. +I went onto er you know rolling my cigarettes up myself so I wouldn't be +Mhm. +smoking as much. +I started blaming that for the headaches. +They just seem to come on you know? +Mhm. +Well don't, don't do anything. +Just get rid of one thing before you start +before you start doing anything else. +Mm . +Here we are now. +That's that. +Actually travel this . +Ah. +Yes it'll, it'll travel right down to the tips +Ah. +of your fingers. +Aye. +If you feel that there's +Are you tonight? +No. +I'm on er I signed off +Oh right. +too right. +Okay. +Fine. +Mm. +You get started on that and we'll see +you in about four weeks +Right. +and see how it's doing. +Okay then. +Right. +Okay. +Thank you very much then Doctor . +Okay. +Cheerio then. + +Next patient Dr . +Come in, come in. +Morning Doctor. +Good morning. +Now what can I do for this lady? +My daughter's Doctor. +I didn't really want had a mastectomy. another lump there. +Another lump? +It might only be breast tissue, I don't know that. +Mhm. +Let's have a wee look. +And she called him in on Sunday night, I mean I wouldn't have. +No. +Right. +It's hard. +But i it's like where the stitches are you know. +Where where the stitches were, right. +Well, partly where they are. +Right, er +I just happened to feel it because the wounds haven't been healing Doctor, +Has it not? +using that erm what's the name of the cream? +That steroid cream? +Eumobate +Aha. +Right. +Well, I've been to see Mr , and then I was off again to see him, and he said I was right. +But he didn't say whether I, I just continued with the cream, but it was the other night I just felt wee . +Could be a bit of breast tissue, I don't know. +But it is quite a hard lump. +Aye, he was quite happy. +He couldn't feel anything +No he +to worry about? +Mhm. +That's what he said. +Yes. +Here I felt a lump. +Yes, +In a different +aye, it's a different bit. +It's higher. +It's up he didn't actually examine that part where I think there's a lump. +See after a breast operation does it take a long long time with stitches? +Oh yes. +Oh aye. +Aye cos I tried the prosthesis and I tried the, but it just catches, and then er . +And it's +Keeps, keeps rubbing against this, this is +so sore. +Aye. +That's the worst bit. +That's the worst bit. +But +In here. +but that's no where the lump is. +Let's have a wee look at this lump and see what +Stupid, you're into a state, isn't it? +No, not. +Cos +in that bit. +See what's going on here. +Oh right you know what I . +That it? +Oh +I think that's your rib. +My rib? +I think that's your rib. +No +Aha, that's right. +Oh yeah. +That my rib? +That feels like a rib. +Oh Jesus. +Is it? +Aye. +That's your other one, that's the one on top, there's the one underneath. +And then there's, the other one's just underneath that, so there. +Oh it's a rib then. +See that, that's your rib. +Aha. +It's hard? +Aye, oh it's hard. +Very very hard. +Because so was the last lump, hard and then it was like you know? +That's right. +That's hard, yeah. +Right. +That's, that's, that's +er the edge of your rib. +I don't think, I don't feel anything else there, Katrina. +Now when are you going back to see Mr ? +I go back +Right. +I'll drop +him a wee note, and tell him that you, that you, you know, you can feel this er I'll tell him I've had a look at it, and think it's the rib that's showing through. +I'll see what he says. +I've had a lot of bother with a wee bit of red blisters +Aye up the top. +That's, that's, that's the stitches. +you know it's a bit of a and it's really sore like. +And then as the day goes on, I've got to go and tear this off, cos it gets, these bits get red, +Red red raw. +oh really sore Doctor , you cannae +Right. +Then it comes in like a tingling feeling. +Like a, a ne a nettle stinging you you +Right. +know. +And it's just +Sounds +the clothes that are doing that. +Aye, it sounds like the stitches right enough. +And does that take a long time? +I mean +Yes. +I thought, I didn't think that it takes as long as that. +I mean he did say they were stitches that come out er what +That there, you get, there are +some stitches that c +They stay in but he says that +That's right. +in the body. +But they don't come out with your , you know your bath. +That's right. +They're they're too +They just integrate in the body . +They're too deep underneath the skin. +Aye, he said that. +The way the way +Cos I heard it takes as long. +That's why they take so long. +there's now +Just keep on with that cream? +U use this stuff instead of that er Eumobate It's +Aha. +slightly stronger. +Aha. +And that might do that, I'll drop Mr a wee note, tell him that you've been in, +Aha. +so that when he sees you the next time, he'll double check that. +Aye. +Aha. +But I don't think there's anything +Er +to worry about Katrina. +I hope not. +No. +No. +I just, I just felt that it was the cream the other night, and then I just felt oh, you +Mhm. +know b what I've been getting on Friday and Saturday night was an awfully big +Yes. +in my shoulder. +Up, up over the top here. +On the shoulder, more +Yes, that's right. +I've always been getting a shooting pain there that kind of happened and I just +That's right. +thought it was the stitches. +That's, aye, it's, it's everything's beginning to get tight. +Tight now, aye. +This is, this is you starting to feel the sore bits. +But er +I'll, I'll drop him a wee note anyway. +Aye. +Okay. +Right Katrina. +else I feel Doctor I've, +Aye. +got angina, and I've got the like the heart failure. +Mhm. +And I didn't want any breast off, naturally. +No no. +I mean but see the tremendous strain that it's putting on me? +Ah. +You know, I feel that is left, left angina,because I've got to rip the brassiere off at a certain time of the day +Aha. +extra weight. +The extra weight, +you know? +I didn't want any off, I think I'd have . +Right Katrina . +Cheerio. +Right, okay, cheerio now. + +Doctor , do you want to see Thomas again? +There is, they're all +Mm. +of . +Erm +Thomas. +Thomas . +Some of them er +Oh, yes. +Right. +there's a few times so I'll give you that four. +Is that? +D do you want to see him again? +Aye. +That's fine. +Right. +Okay. +Yeah. + +shortage was twenty five K Gs of . +You hadn't got the bags printed, the bags being printed today and Tony will make it today. +Currently Alan is having extreme difficulty in getting hold of any dried blood. +Apparently we're not killing as many cows as we used to. +So there's a tremendous shortage, he's trying Germany, he's trying all over. +But the consequence is, until he gets it, we can't make any fish, blood and bone. +And that applies to twenty fives and obviously pre-packs. +Er before I went off, we were talking about packaging, have we decided to bring any in yet? +There's another few weeks have drifted and sooner or later we'll have to start making . +Yeah Alan and I are gonna go through the details . +I've got a I've got a lot of things to talk about so +you know before we do . +The next thing I'm not very happy about the supply of printed bags coming in from er the workshop. +Talking to Eric yesterday, how many should she be able to do an hour, five hundred erm approximately. +I said to Celia how many she thinks she can do a day, she thinks about two thousand, depending on what she's doing. +And when she worked here, she had her daughter working with her and they were a team and they went like a bomb. +Up there she's got no disrespect, somebody who's not quite as bright as they might be er and she's not working overtime as they would do here if they got behind, they're working half eight to half four is it Ray? +Yeah. +And in consequence you know, there's an accumulation. +Erm Simon had a list Well we'd come and see him the thirty first of January, Tony came to me to work on it today, and that's not . +All I'm saying is at the moment, she can't apparently cope with the demand on her for bags. +According to Tony we're going out of at the end of the month. +Well s well erm Pete said originally, at the end of the month but it looks like, with this problem, it's gonna be phasi If we can get some off-site at the end of the month. +It doesn't matter though does it if we overflow? +No because all we have to do is switch it on switch it off like that. +We don't give them any notice at all. +But I do believe that we should seriously look at getting say, internal usage bags for nutrients er bags for lime, anything that we have printed, we ought to look at the and say to Mike or get 'em printed or something. +Okay. +Alright. +Lynne at a meeting yesterday, Tom said to ask you please, no more to be ordered. +That is Ian, I'll give Ian a ring cos Ian r rings direct. +Okay. +Erm Ray can you arrange please to send one hundred thousand J E B bags up to? +Okay. +A complaint from George er in the pre-packs this morning, reference er going through the U V A. Apparently, I don't understand this but he says it's wearing out erm belts at a cost of a hundred and forty a pair every fortnight. +And last night he was out back here at work at nine o'clock. +And as a result of this, through the night, er Angela working in U V A produced two hundred and ninety seven. +Eig the three K G line when the machine and everything was running properly, you'd be getting six eighty. +Er I mean obviously be due to +Right in the back. +Angela's er lack of experience yeah . +George inexperience. +And he says it's I think he was gonna talk to you about it . +Yeah yeah. +he has done this morning, and he's talked to us about the film. +I think +Yeah. +the machine side of it. +Yeah yeah. +We know there's a problem and we've all gone back in and . +Er Tom has also asked for twenty tonne of anutrients to go up to. +Er this week's production sheet er and I wonder of Ian could bear in mind that he should try and keep an extra ten tonne when he's looking at his reserves here just in case +and we don't get stuck in the middle of an export . +He'd already he'd seen the bags going up and he'd already got that in his head. +But you see he knows he's gotta keep something back. +If he can +Yeah. +keep up a reserve here so that +Yeah +send them five or ten tonne. +Yeah. +Er one thing Stewart, erm any word for from John about the state of the ? +No no . +Right, on the thing, just finally, there's a hundred and thirty thousand growbags here next week. +And currently we've got a hundred and thirty four thousand cos we've got four days production to build up the surplus. +But we've got eighteen thousand three hundred and thirty . +My count at the moment, I reckon we've got scattered round the countryside, ten thousand. +Which would cover us for Friday and Monday's loadings. +Phil said if you wish he'll his men on Saturday and Sunday. +Right well don't have any papers on those but I thought we'd got more than that. +I thought we'd got I thought we could satisfy . +Friday, Monday and Tuesday. +Well, Friday, Monday, Tuesday, you're talking about nearly twelve thousand. +We're almost there +Yes. +But that's wh that's your position at the moment isn't it? +That's how I take it. +We've got that on the computer, that came in yesterday, that came in wherever +Yeah. +and that came in this morning. +Yeah. +That's the total we've got in at the moment. +We've got one thousand eight hundred and ninety at and Eric checked and we've got nine hundred at the other place. +And they did another h eleven hundred and forty yesterday didn't they? +Well that's what he says they've got in stock at the moment. +Perhaps they've got more in transit Eric do you think? +Lorries on the road. +I don't know I don't know mate. +No. +I don't know. +I've got a bit on that, if you want I could bring it up now while you're talking about it, I will. +Okay. +Pete while you're talking about I've got I've I've got a quickie to bring up on that. +I've been on to this morning,asked me to and they have got thirty palettes there at the moment. +And they and they're working away. +What they say is they're getting no liaison at all when there's any lorries going in to pick any product up. +It would be lovely he said if somebody could give him a ring . +No Let me just tell what is actually happening. +who are the main people +Yes. +Actually had a program of what is going through. +Yes. +So does Tim . +Yes. +I think it's a lack of communication +Ah so it's their end, not our end. +yeah. +They have got a program of what's being pulled out as far as the trucks are concerned. +Yeah. +Dick got one, 's have got one. +The people at have got one. +Everybody's got the schedule of what they pull out so . +Yesterday what actually happened was Yeah hang on a minute +So it's only the poor bloke on-site who doesn't know? +What happened yesterday was, they had a breakdown again. +Yeah. +Right. +And they had three wagons turn up. +Yes. +And they couldn't load three wagons. +Yes. +They loaded I think one and two thirds. +Yeah. +And they had to send one wagon, because they couldn't load it, over to to pick up some more +Yes I see. +It's more +So it it's yon end . +I think it's just Tim and and the other guy, +Okay. +cos he he does do a hundred and one jobs. +He's on . +Okay. +The breakdown was only for an hour and a half the lorries turned up and the breakdown was happening . +But the information is there, just that +said I've got a guy that's been stood here for an hour, don't know what to do with him.. +What was this production here last night? +Yeah cos it was +They didn't do anything really did they . +What happened was the the stuff didn't come in till quarter past four, the dust extraction didn't get done till after five, so we said, Right, from six this morning till they finish it, give me bags per hour and the run. +I've just timed +Hello. +Er instantaneous timing per bag fifteen seconds so that's about you know, it's two hundred odd an hour . +Do you want to . +Just a sec, hang on. +. +And I know they got to palletize them, wrap 'em and shift 'em and everything but er as our lot more than . +Mm. +You know if they did . +But it's Brian I would like to see. +The calculation it's not just the bagging, it's the bagging and the stacking . +Well what I'm saying though Ray is really everything downstream of +the baggers should be able to cope shouldn't it. +You can get it through the sealers quickly and under the flattener. +Providing you can get it palletized and it's chucking men at it. +I wanna go out I'll go out there with Bryn and Eric anyway as soon as we've finished cos it wants . +As soon as it's finished I'll ring Joseph and get one . +Well ring him now then, see if he's got any . +The and then we'll let him know when . +There's always er Mr if you want to drag him . +Well I could take him off line. +No. +Where is he? +I mean John. +Oh. +Oh. +I says to him I says, we're flexible here, you might find . +Erm the only other thing is, we've still got a spare man out on the haven't we, covering the breaks. +We take him off and don't cover the breaks while you want him. +Right? +Well let's we'll go and have a look. +Yeah. +Me and Bryn and Eric . +. +There's not really much . +We had a breakdown yesterday it was an hour and a half. +Apparently it was caused by dust getting in. +Dust got into one of the circuit breakers on the machine and apparently shorted it out. +electrician in . +Yeah that that was solved very quickly. +The problem with the truck you know about now. +The plan is today to i is still three loads, and we've got three loads planned for the rest of this week. +If they are double shifting it'll be on Monday. +Just whilst +They've got through eleven hours today have they? +Yes that that +We've definitely gone to eleven hours ? +Yes that's what he told me, he said we were going on to for the rest of the week, eleven hours and then start double shifting Monday. +Who's responsible for shipping it from and into here. +Who's the trigger, what's the trigger? +To bring it in. +Cos it doesn't It's not gonna +I don't like the way you're looking at me. +We're the trigger we've got to try and schedule three pickups three baggings a day . +Three pickups a day. +Three a day. +Based on we can do they were doing sixty five palette loads a day. +three trucks would equate to sixty six approximately. +And is that to Phil to get his lot over is it? +I've asked Phil to bring his as he produces it, bring it over. +There's one in this morning I saw. +Has he. +Yeah. +Well it's just a question of him arranging the transport to get rid of it. +It's best if he arranges the transport cos he knows what's there. +Yeah. +Well I'll tell Phil then and no Saturdays but also get it on a daily basis. +What's erm what are we gonna work here assuming this goes? +If it goes we're gonna bring the lads that finish at lines three and four so it'll be what six six till, whenever you want, ten hours? +Twelve hours? +Well that'll be from Monday Lynne won't it? +From Monday yeah. +Yeah. +If you want +I think that's alright for Monday. +Er no cos we're what we're gonna use the product that we've got in and you need some don't you? +Definitely. +So what we're gonna do was do what Peter wanted and have from Monday, if you do want us to do it. +Cos again no decision, it's just yes we can do it. +We're just running out the material that we've got here. +I dunno Steve said yesterday he thought it was cheaper at . +They seem to be able to cope with it far better than anybody in this group at the moment don't they. +They're producing more than +or well +It's not a sort of a long term thing. +I mean what's the position with ? +Well you've got the contract finite number of bags. +I think if we went in again and tried to do another . +They want the work I'll tell you that. +They want the work. +They want the work. +They're keen to do it a and if you want to make any more it can be done but I think +They was hoping three months work then. +Yeah I don't think they're doing a great er I don't think they're making a great deal of money out of it themselves. +They're not. +Well he keeps telling me that he keeps saying . +. +Well can we not buy it see where stocks lie. +Do we have to make a decision. +Now? +Well you've only got actually you've got +Well no only that +You've got five thousand bags here anyway. +The rest are out at and and you've got one load at run that load through. +Oh yeah it makes sense to run that load through but whether What I'm saying is whether we go on next week to a continuous . +Well I think you have a look at what they're doing, the only thing is if if we say they need another bloke, if you're gonna do that next week, then you've gotta plan for that before next week . +That's the main problem What it is I'm ho we're holding fire +the temps. +The temps we're holding fire on them to know what to do with it. +If you want them on a coach , they'll be I think there's six up there is there? +Six +Six so that means five five on a shift down here, we'll find something to do with them. +If not we're gonna double the shift back with the mixers. +We don't want to lose the men so we've got them here. +Yeah. +And we're saying, Yes you've got next week but we don't know where you are. +. +Yeah, that's why they're here and really I would like to know by Friday m tennish. +Let's make a decision on Friday management meeting. +depending on what we've got out of by then. +What 's done . +Yeah. +What the breakdown situation is . +We need to look at Bryn and Eric and just tidy up the bits but see what they get off this then. +Yeah. +Today. +Yeah. +Get an idea of what +Well let's leave that let's leave +Yeah. +to Friday morning then. +So Friday +So just flogging it to death +Yeah. +at the minute, we're waiting for some bits for this should be in today. +Yeah yeah +Yeah but we're that that would enable a double shift to be done decide not to run a double shift +Only because it would have meant stopping the pre-pack. +No it doesn't no no no that's what we've been +Prior to getting the +Yeah yeah. +But that was why as I understood it, that was why I wanted the sealer. +Yeah. +Well Arthur wants the sealer anyway because if you're not doing over there, you'll have double shift working on pre-packs. +So it still wants +I still want to get it going but I don't want to put a double shift onto unless I have to. +. +pre-packs. +Mm. +The message I got was that the last few days it didn't matter a bugger what it cost but we were in desperate straights to get in stock. +What we're saying now really, that's not quite. +Well I'm saying I still don't know, the figures that I'm being given suggest that by Friday, erm or by Monday, we'll have sufficient to meet the orders of . +The fifteen . +It's on there Steve, and the amount that +The eighteen the allocation is eighteen thousand. +By Friday night we'll have sixteen thousand of those right. +Now that's the worst scenario given that you get five hundred a day out of +Yeah. +and you get fourteen hundred a day out of. +Mm. +Now that would be the worst scenario . +they should do two thousand plus. +Then then okay, two thousand plus. +And then you've got however many you're gonna get off the line here between now and +Well you're gonna get whatever +And did seven hundred in el in eleven hours on Monday. +So they've upped slightly. +Seven hundred. +But they did four hundred last night breakdown. +But we know are going on to double shift on Monday +Yes it's eleven hours this week. +The problem is . +They should do +You'll get two thousand on Monday. +Yes. +and that's without going onto a double shift +That's right. +at . +That's right. +That's why I'm saying let's wait while +I think so. +Friday and make a decision on Friday without panicking into a decision . +If things change in the meantime we could always +We could always ch we could always +Well we've got the o we've got the +You've got the option. +the people +Yeah. +and we've got the people here. +Why look for spending extra money when you don't need to? +Alright let's review at but let's make a decision on Friday about what we do on the shift pattern on Monday. +Okay just before we go off Peter's erm the first comment you made Peter was about ten K Gs of +Yes. +the computer says there was some and there isn't any . +Yes. +I think this is erm it it's an extremely worrying fact as far as I'm concerned, I got a phone call from Chris just before this meeting. +He wants er to to get together with Ian and myself Ian and myself straight after this meeting. +Because he's saying that the January stock take is quite is al is impossible to reconcile. +Bloody Hell. +He says he just can't backtrack. +He says there's so many differences . +Quite honestly Steve . +It's very difficult at this moment to say we're not talking about finished stock you know, you're gonna get fluctuations on product, but what worries me, I don't know at this stage how many tonnes of bone meal we've got stashed away somewhere or how many tonnes of compost maker we've got stacked anywhere for use in the pre-pack. +Because that information is not in the computer at the moment. +Can I just I think it's fairly important that if we'd have actually done the reconciliation, last week, we'd have had the opportunity to recheck them. +Which wasn't possible because Chris was saying it wasn't possible to do. +We might not be in this situation now. +But I thought that er with coming off that, Malcolm was going on to that. +Malcolm was doing part of it. +Sorry I'm not laying any criticism anywhere +I know you're not Steve but all I'm saying is that we had a discussion about this earlier in the week. +Chris refuses to do something I'm afraid when somebody's already done three quarters of the work, you can't put somebody on to do the last quarter. +Mm. +And Chris was already inputting all of the data. +And when he was offered help he said, No, I will do it myself. +And we've been waiting and waiting and waiting now for a week to get this reconciliation at least together so that we could go out and re-count whatever was required. +Eric and myself went out and did a physical re-count last week of wha a whole bay of because numbers weren't adding up. +Mm. +We went and did that ourselves it needed that concerted effort. +And I'm not being funny but when Malcolm did it, we would do that almost two or three days after the stock taking if there were odd counts. +That's the question I asked this morning, Why wasn't it you know, why weren't we doing it? +And I think I think the reconciliation what he's actually saying is he hasn't got time to recheck those reconciliations before this weekend's deadline that's what it appears to be . +And that's that's not good enough. +No it's not, agreed. +And and Chris has just put his head in his hands and said I can't do it. +Mm. +It's not a matter of they're not reconcilable, I think there has to be a strong point that's made. +And I think Peter's been saying this for almost well since he's come back anyway that, I can't work because the stock figures have not been updated. +Monday's production's not in. +Tuesday's production's not in. +And I said to Chris, you know, I said to Chris yesterday, Are you putting in the production or have you put I can't do two jobs at once, I can't do two jobs at once and that was it. +So at five o'clock last night when I called down,I didn't respond. +I just ignored it. +At five o'clock I said to Chris I said, How about if I ask Cindy if she can help. +It's bugger all to do with me but my interest is getting the in. +No! +No! +Now Cindy's saying to me, I can put it in. +Mm. +So if you if you're having words with Chris if you can say +Well I am. +If you you know +Well I think we we should reaction was happening with Malcolm last week. +How Malcolm was asking how he could help +And you can't unfortunately take it away on block like I said, and give it to someone and say, finish it off. +and the other is, why should I clear up the mess that this guy's made. +Yeah. +I don't think it was a lousy stock take. +I think the the count etcetera went alright. +I think it's the reconciliation based on perhaps some of the problems that we had at the lost last stock take which are accelerated You know probably the odd miscount here and there this time. +Mm. +I mean I looked through it this time. +Mm. +I mean I looked through it yesterday and th there are a few reconciliations which wouldn't take much sorting out. +Small ones. +There appear to be a lot jotted throughout, but they don't amount to a vast amount of money. +I d I don't know the problems at the moment. +I think it's worth looking at. +Yeah. +First actually. +Yeah perhaps that's yeah alright I'll retract that. +I don't know whether it was a lousy stock take or not. +The the reconciliations suggesting that it wasn't a good stock take. +Yeah. +When I was speaking t very very briefly erm to Ian before before I came down he said, well I'm really not surprised, the the the continuing problem and difficulty in establishing what's on the palette, as to whether it's lawn feed and weed, lawn feed and , for example. +And erm +Why should that be. +I think prob problems of identification haven't really been right this time and we made a point a clear point this time with a note to people, if they weren't sure, to make comments on the books. +I think if you look through the books, there are comments in there where they weren't sure, with question marks and they were to be rechecked. +The problem is it's not got to that stage yet. +Yeah. +I mean th that is that's crazy. +Absolutely yeah, I mean I and I I'll reiterate it and I'm not siding with Malcolm but two days after the stock taking they did prior to this one, we were out there rechecking. +Mm. +out rechecking with Malcolm in cahoots to say, well show me where you counted these and let's do it again. +Yeah. +That's not happened, there's been absolutely zero coordination either on a daily basis here. +But Malcolm Chris, have you got the numbers yet, have you got them crunched? +Oh well, I'll got to enter another few . +I I feel a bit sorry for for some of the counters because they can see certain on one palette for instance, I found there were three sorts of bags. +Just on one palette. +And if you didn't have the expertise to know Ah well I know what's in there, then what the hell does that person count they've got to go and chase somebody to to find out +These were from erm from . +There was there was ten ten ten bags, there was eleven five five , +Ah right. +there was Spring and Summer and you thought well, what's what like you know we +But as Ray said, all they got to do is query it haven't they. +Yeah but everything was queried You look at +Oh the Yeah. +books and they were all queried. +I'm partly agreed with you the fact that the stock take at the end of the day we got it right, but all I'm saying it was very difficult +Difficult to count yeah. +And we could make it better by making sure that the bags came in more correct like what Simon's doing now with those printed labels. +Every bags gonna have a printed label on. +So +Steve you were here on the day. +Mm. +We were supposed to start at six o'clock. +I mean some of us were in at six. +No no no it wasn't supposed to start at six, it was supposed to start at seven thirty. +No Chris should have been in at six, that's when the first team started counting. +Most of the teams that we'd organized that we sent notes round to start at seven thirty. +Yeah. +When you got in there at seven thirty, Chris wasn't there and the books weren't there and people were waiting around ready to get off. +It it wasn't organized well from that point of view. +I I'd asked Chris to organize it and it wasn't. +Okay. +I think the fact that the books were filled out correctly and I think you should give the people that did the stock take, congratulations because the books were filled out reasonably well considering some of their ex inexperience in it. +I think they did a good job on the day and they stayed until the counts were done. +In fact I do believe one team was here till about two thirty doing it +Yeah. +I know Chris was here doing doing his own calculations on books but after that I mean the I think on the Sunday I he came in and did some work . +And then the stock stock take was dropped then for four or five days. +And we got Malcolm in to enter some of the input, we got Joe to enter some of the input. +But the final reconciliation has taken so long. +Mm. +Even after I mean, as I say, we went out on the Wednesday and he said, all I need is for you to do this book again for me. +for God's sake. +I mean we did that on the Wednesday, and he said that's all I need now. +Monday it was. +And it's now +Straight after . +Middle of the following week and we got the first reconciliation yesterday. +Okay. +I I don't have anything further to bring up, there are no packaging issues . +. +Yeah erm just to clarify one thing, chutes and blockage up in chutes and s when the screen blocks up. +Who's job is it to dig it out or clean it out? +That's what I'd like to know cos there's a lot of confusion going on out there. +In terms of what Ray . +Well a lot of people out there think it's a fitter's job to clean chutes out and unblock screens. +I in my personal opinion I I don't think it is. +. +If you need tools to do it, then a fitter initially and then if the help comes from the people that are stuck because it's not working anyway, to help clean out. +Mm. +Well there's a prime example at the moment down the sedge hopper. +Which we call the sedge hopper on the line. +Now I've looked at that this morning, we are getting spillage because the chute is that blocked up, there's that much polythene round the flail which we had a fire on before, down there and the stuff is piled right up, you can't even see the bottom tail drum. +And the conveyor that takes the stuff away. +Now you know, it's alright, we can't stop spillage, we never will stop spillage. +But I think we with the wet stuff we've had going through, the chute is blocking up. +And not getting cleaned out. +Pete got some cleaning up done last Saturday which is you know, round the er screen, that area's all been cleaned up but obviously he ain't got enough blokes to to get the lot done. +clean them. +Well apparently so yeah. +Yeah. +. +Yeah, basically it's always been but it hasn't been enforced for quite some time, that the clean up rate is four pounds and hour which equates to six pound an hour on a Saturday. +Yeah, cos it's time and a half ? +Mm. +Now erm when Paul came in he unfortunately come in and clean up come in and clean up and they were put on their own rate which they should never have been. +right l I'd said to Paul now have you told them it's . +Oh no I haven't. +So they got paid their own rate. +So they've been used to their own rate and I said each time, if you're gonna get you must tell them it's the cleanup rate. +So probably three months went by where they got their own rate. +So I says to Pete, right, start as we mean to go on, I refuse to pay any more than the cleanup rate. +So he goes out there and they all turn round and say, stuff you, I'm not coming in to clean up for four pound and hour which again equates to six pound an hour. +So we got Mark I think was the only erm full timer off the compost plant that agreed to come in. +Mm. +And two or three temps and the rest were a couple of temps from the mixing plant. +Now Pete has said he's not gonna give in. +It's four pound an hour and it stands. +When Dick's lads are down to seven and a half hours which they are in the erm summertime, I mean we s the lads'll come in I mean we can't pull them off now, but those lads'll come in and clean up. +Permanent lads will come in and clean up. +But no they're just being damn awkward I'm sorry. +So Pete said, right, they're not gonna beat me, it's four pound an hour and that's it. +So they turn round and say, I'm not coming in. +But they'll come in if we want cutting out and cos they get their own rate. +Well if they're going onto eight hour regular they'll probably they'll probably still change their mind . +You see As I said, they might have just actually cut off their nose to spite their face . +Well they I think Yes I think they +really got to play them at their own game really. +and I'm sorry. +Mm. +It's been hard work for us but we're not giving in in here and that's it . +Oh it is, I mean I that responsibility. +They they would come in mate if it was on their own rate but as soon as you. +There's a erm if there's a need for 'em to clean this Saturday, say they need to clean round that sedge +Well I I think there's a necessary to clean up this +I I'll try and get a gang +Well no, what you want to do, ask that same gang that came in last week, +I will. +and bugger the rest. +Yeah. +Ask those same blokes specifically +I mean, I've had an offer from who said I'll come in any Saturday but I can't take him off Dick cos Dick needs him there. +But when it comes to the +you know, when all our temps are gone, then the first people that'll get asked are Dick's lads who've said, yes we'll do it, providing Dick doesn't want us. +I wouldn't I wouldn't give them the option, I would go and ask those same ones you had in last week. +As long as you've got somebody here that can +Underneath the screen up in the pie in the sky I mean that I mean I've known that when you've only got about that much where you should have that. +and it's maybe narrowed down to that. +Which the fitters'll take the side off for 'em, +Yeah. +but to get in to clean it out +What I might actually do it see if Ian's not doing anything if he not come in for the full time that they're cleaning up, but come in for those sort of things. +Well as long as the chutes get cleaned out +you see that we're getting a lot behind that sleeper wall in between the packing line and the sleeper wall again. +I mean, an incident happened last week er the fitter went up They asked the fitter if they could track the belt up on the top. +So the lad went up and tracked it. +He come back to me he says, it's spilling over the top because the chutes are blocked up he says I'll tell the track driver, the track driver says, Oh well get the to clean that up. +I said, like hell you will. +Like hell you will. +I've had bloody platforms put up there to make it a lot easier for people to get up there. +I mean I could understand when we had to climb up the belt which was damn dangerous, but now we've altered all that. +But they keep thinking I mean I've got like forty days holiday my staff to get in in fif in fifty days left. +You know it's it's a problem. +Will you will you for Saturday though do that, see Ian and make sure he knows what wants do what you think wants doing. +And make sure that he isolates the plant. +Ian did come in one Saturday +for me last year and he and he did Yeah I will see him +Yeah we'll see if he'll come in and do something like that again. +Yeah. +You will see him before +and have a word with him because he he knows what chutes is blocked up and what wants cleaning out. +But as I say, we can take the plates off the screen underneath here but I mean I think you still ought to have another bloke +Well get together with Ian and sort of +up there with him to clean it out because I say, you can isolate things but you're up in the air. +Yeah. +And that and that's what +Well as long as he knows what wants doing, as long as they're safe. +Well . +Erm I've been out as on the er line three this morning and I think there's another little bit we ought to buy but we'll discuss that as we're going on eh ? +Mm. +Erm the U V A machine, the problem we've got on there which Ray's explained or Peter raised this morning, there is in between the the drive belts that take the film down the former and which They've put a new set on which is a hundred and forty pound a pi They're in between the two drive wheels, there is a plastic adjuster. +And what it does really is keep the belt firm so when it goes on the former it keeps it firm . +That is worn. +And one's been on er apparently I didn't know this but George showed me this morning. +Brian made on and put on. +Well it ain't lasted. +I think it's only lasted about eight or ten weeks. +And it's worn. +So what I'm doing now I've got one of the lads down at er Plastics +Mm. +Yes they have got some stuff, yes he's gonna get a price to make some on this hard plastic that we've got on the . +Mm. +Erm which I think that's gonna solve one of the problems. +It's gonna be cheaper doing it that way than going through U V A . +U V A yeah. +Erm as I say but but that is on there. +Now the mix-up we had yesterday, er on a lot of aggro when I got about this dust extract system one line three. +I don't know whether people think they can move a dust extract in an hour or two hours. +Er we're limited with people and while Brian was in the verge of moving it which the electrics all had to be took out and rerun, he got called away, down to the pre-packs to a breakdown so obviously it didn't get done, the job stopped cos there's nobody else. +When I come back in, things was all up in the air because while he was moving the first position of the dust extractor, there's a radio there. +And we'd squared it up once before because there was wires hanging all over from the sp not from the radio, from the speakers. +And we asked them to tie it up, the lads made a bloody job I think they tied it up for coming round. +Which they did do, but yesterday when Brian went to move the dust extractor that the radio was at the side of, there was wires hanging again like bloody clothes line again. +So straight away he said, that's it I I'll condemn it. +And that's when he lost cooperation with the workers out there. +They buggered him about apparently. +Went and signed the forklift off and signed the keys out and generally +Well he was moving with the forklift, their forklift and he come back and he says +Pete was out there and I know a lot of tempers got frayed. +Yeah +said I walked away. +Yes quite right . +It was it was personalities +Yeah. +more than anything. +And I said to Brian you know he's +Out there wasn't it yesterday. +you know I did say to Brian +Yeah well at the end of the day I mean I I wasn't there but a the facts at the end of the day were that they'd been buggering about with that radio system which they shouldn't do. +No. +So I said to Brian, right leave it. +I think the best thing there would be to leave it for a week, +Yeah. +let 'em have it back +Yeah. +on condition that they don't do anything silly with it. +That way Brian's had his they've got their +It's yeah yeah +radio back and everything should be status quo. +Yeah. +But they shouldn't do that. +They're not they aren't allowed they aren't qualified to bugger about with +Well that have actually been told that if anything comes in providing This is what I can't get through We've said to them you can bring your radios in but give to Brian first. +To check. +Let Brian check them +It's not the radio though it's not +They they've put some speakers on it haven't they. +They bloody speakers all over the place. +I mean the mixer's just as bad but really we've got on to them Brian did and they made a good job, they squared it up. +But I mean I mean we still walk round there's wires hanging and connectors . +Mm. +Now . +Well it shouldn't be done anyway. +It shouldn't be done +End of story as far as I'm concerned. +But I think I think it was the way maybe the way Brian approached them you know, I think there's a little bit on both sides +But it was a bit of Yeah. +To come back in and get bloody aggro like that and it's you know and it +Brian'd be under stress anyway having to move that er dust extractor quickly and he's +Well he got called away. +had to go to a breakdown, the poor bloke didn't know whether he was coming or going so one of these situations that stress stress arrives. +Yeah but as I say I just want to make it clear to people that it's er it's a bit of both and I think a bit of bit of heated argument was +This morning they're different again down there cos I've been down there and I've looked at the situation erm and I've had a word with the lads there and I will try and alter it a little bit more. +Which I'm g +Give them a week then and give them their radio back then. +I gave them some er jackets and trousers that I got in stock down there that's that's that's it then yeah . +I see. +er us I went to yesterday the the the borehole is now fully covered in secure er and the water system is working well. +I as well but he's still a load of water on the top. +A lot of water. +Did you get the . +Took it home last night . +He took it home last night I w I got it going I got the time on it but I +He couldn't find an eleven year old kid to do it. +Because it's like an M F I. +Y all you need is an eleven year old kid, you can't do it can you. +take it home and sort it out. +Well apparently Paul his his erm his mate up there he's done works on the B T so he'll set it for him. +Nobody works for B T. +Only the buggers that send the bills out. +While I was there we had the council man there. +And he he wasn't he said they can only stand the water problem so long so what they can do with it I don't know. +I keep saying I said to Dennis, well it's on our property. +There will be a report coming through because the chap from the council believe it or not, said, Oh this should be undercover. +and it's true it's right. +Dennis said, I've got asthma, you're not putting this under cover. +But I mean when I went going towards they were screening it you know, seeing it. +It was . +water on then. +Yeah. +Well you see you you don't put water on when you put screening system +No. +it's when it comes through isn't it. +the stuff that they're using now is crap it's nothing like +it once was it's just so it's just absolute dust. +Sawdust isn't it. +Well when Tom +It's wo it's p It's not actually sawdust it's wood flour. +It is yeah. +Absolutely crap Yeah it's nothing like it was I mean +why you know what I don't know what's changed in the meantime or whether we're paying different rates or whatever, but if you take the material that we were getting in two three years ago when first time I was involved, it's just absolutely nothing like. +And there's no wonder it's blowing away cos it's just lighter than air. +I mean in terms of stock +Well it is you're right. +in stock out +I shudder to think. +I mean yesterday was yesterday really was there wasn't a deal of wind at all but bloody sandstorm +If it dries up for three or four days it's st dries up for three or four days and Dennis has to stop the minute he picks it up it's just blown away. +That's right, you get so much in the hopper you get seventy five percent +Yeah and it's blown away. +in the hopper whup and then the rest is in the field. +Well that's the first first I've heard about the change to it. +Do you want to samples bringing d Pete's going up on +Tomorrow. +Yeah Pete's going up tomorrow do you want some +Who's responsible who's responsible +Who buys the timber? +who buys the D I Y. +Well it's bought in it was an original contract that was but we buy it through here. +We set the contract up. +Technology. +Technology. +Mm. +It's been going ongoing for eighteen months two years change it +Do you want some samples bringing down +Tom Tom Tom knows what it's like cos last time I was up there yesterday Tom was and Chris Turner was up there and we went past an heap and it and we said is that a lorry-load and Dennis said, well it was at this morning. +I've got some original samples down here +what's changed is that they in in the early days we used to get the offcuts and they they were ideally they used to put those through a hogger which is a thing that breaks it down and it's these it's worktops +Yeah. +Yeah. +that they break down. +So you end up with a particle if you look at that it's particles about two or three mills square. +And then what they used to put with that on each of the machines that have dust extract system. +So if they were where the machine was planing or moulding or whatever, the material'd be sucked away like ours is into bins and then that used to go with the material we used to get. +And that would be finer. +The way it looks now as if somebody else is getting the material that was the lumps maybe that's going to er what's his name Technology and we're getting the crap, we're getting dust. +Was there a specification set at the beginning do you know on this +Hardly there's hardly anything There's hardly anything written down at all about this. +Sorry. +I've got a deal in writing this. +As far as the specification's concerned I mean obviously I think it says something very simple like D I Y wood waste +Yeah I d I think there's hardly anything in writing. +I did in December but it was not relative to any of the specifications it was simply to try and ascertain how long the contract was was still live, to find out get this guy +Well according to Barry of Technology it doesn't finish it's ongoing . +Arthur erm Arthur actually met with him as well on that particular day. +Mm. +But there was no talk at the time about . +I think what you and I ought to do is sit down we ought to list the pros and cons and problems of and look at them afresh and then maybe talk to Tom anyway. +What vis a vis +Well Well if you take the site as a whole I mean there are numerous problems. +They've got a problem at the minute where the electrics aren't very good . +Yeah. +You've got the fact that you we're paying Dennis but we don't employ Dennis you know he's he's so there there's the extra cost there what you wouldn't have anywhere else. +Hello? +The things that they +Yes. +The implications that are onto that and we've got . +I'm just in a meeting at the minute. +And really +coming over at dinner. +I mean tea break. +You've just got back. +I'll give you a ring when I've finished then. +Alright . +What's the difference between I jotted down this morning. +We've got According to the information I've been given we've got seven thousand cubic metres of which is useful +no this is processed D I Y. +Well according to Dennis he thinks it's eight thousand. +Alright, seven to eight thousand. +Yeah. +We've got nine thousand of raw material not processed. +Yeah. +The takes it to twel it's a twelve week cycle isn't it? +Yeah. +So we have four, five six, seven, eight, nine we haven't even got enough to see us through the next twelve months. +But +Twelve weeks. +But out of this out of that seven thousand some are s weeks plus. +Some already been down four weeks, five weeks six weeks . +What of the eight thousand cubic metres. +Yeah now +I'm assuming that's twelve weeks is it? +Is that +Yeah. +Th the the eight the processed one are twelve weeks ready to go out the door. +That's twelve weeks. +Now I have I've asked Dennis and Chris 's insisted that he deals with it so Chris has taken it over, and Dennis is getting back to Chris with the stockpiles of how much is ten weeks old, eleven you know so so you +Right so the the nine thousand raw material not processed, in fact some of it's processed in various stages of +Some wh is ready Yeah some is is on the road to being processed. +I had a word with Tom yesterday, it was me who brought this up. +I was concerned, Dennis has never been given any schedule since he last spoke to erm Arthur which was get as much down as you can boy. +I mean it was like that. +He works like that. +Now I was concerned that nobody although they were looking at the water, they were looking at the borehole, they were looking at the electric, nobody was actually looking at production up there. +And where we stood. +So I said, Tom, like I says to Tom. +He then said, right you ring Dennis, get the stockpiles and wha Cos apparently Paul used to flag them. +Yes. +He started a system of flags didn't he. +Mm Yeah. +He puts the date that it's laid down and then he knows how many weeks you know, this is ready in three weeks time. +So then Tom had a word with Chris and Chris insisted that he did it. +Because he's got a plan of the site so he wants to know with his little squares, what's what. +And Dennis is now going straight back to Chris and he's going to give him +So he's probably got it now. +it's D I Y really not a function I don't think. +Not in terms of controlling what's down there and what's mulching. +They they all that we can do is to +That needs to be more production yes. +specification if we know what it's meant to +Which is since we had him here last time but we just ain't had time to get it do by . +And also he's dropping in with unnecessary and you know, when I'm short staffed. +I think the think is though if you're not careful . +Well it is and I'm going concerned I mean it's I mean it's like now I mean th we've got leaking taps and plugs missing, I've got toilet rolls +What you wanna do is I've just done a seven day report on the er on hazard spotting etcetera etcetera etcetera and all the different surveys we've had on the site over the past month. +Mm. +Plus risk management meetings, works committee meetings, work from. +I think we can keep 'em going another week anyway. +You've got another you've got another report coming from . +Well I mean I yeah. +I think what you want to do now , write down a list of what you want him to do and let Steve do that for tomorrow if you can and then let's see if we can make him stick to that list cos otherwise he'll be here in +another fortnight saying can I give another fortnight. +When we get this list typed up that Joanne's doing at the moment, +Yeah. +then you probably have to take it from that and I think you'll find there's a weeks work on there. +I'll . +And now we're doing down the pre-packs on the Saturday, apparently that's coming off my budget. +The hours are being . +Yeah. +George's hours are in the pre-pack. +Yeah because they they +They are not in your maintenance budget. +They're not on my budget. +No. +I left his hours in the pre-pack +I think this is quite interesting +The only one that's gone down to yours is Bill last week for those four and a half hours doing that interceptor. +That's the only thing I've charged to you. +All the rest has been kept by myself . +So I've got something spare now. +piece of metal put up over the entrance to the compost plant please. +It's gonna be like Omen two one day. +bloody decapitated. +What do you mean, shut them big doors and lock 'em? +No just the piece of corrugated iron that's just about to drop off +No it's not dropping off. +Now be be sure that it's all in the pre-packs, it's been taken by the pre-pack department +Yeah. +Yeah. +and it's not gone to yours. +Anyway who who do you think's gonna stand my pay while I'm ? +Yeah. +Eh you've got . +You've got it all now. +Er now that is another thing Peter about that hanging sheet. +But have you seen the state of the doorway what somebody's clobbered. +Can't blame me +Have you seen it? +That bay three doorway. +No the big doors? +And they've clouted it from the outside going in. +Could that be a lorry reversing in to tip sand and grits in it? +Don't know. +sand and grit bay's this way not that way. +But er that I mean and then there's that's another thing we ought to look round, there's the state of the shed outside +on the r main road. +Yes yeah it's not very good. +It's not +It wasn't very good in nineteen eighty four. +Well somebody else has clobbered it now ain't they further down. +Have they? +Yeah. +But anyway that's all my moans and groans this morning. +you know there was something wrong I was sitting listening I mean I'm not been involved when you were talking about the stock take somewhere along the line a few things have slipped because when you go back, in the days when I used to be morning stock takes, we used to before the event, you would nearly always have the counts done. +I'm thinking now, the areas I used to do, the prepacks. +I used to really go down there and all I did was sort of tick off what the lads had already done. +Cos used to tell 'em when it was gonna be and they would have time before the event to get it all tidied up, it was all ready, he would in and say, there's such and such on that one, such and such on this one +A four letter word Dick, time. +And he would you would really only have to verify because at the end of the day what you said about You you mentioned somewhere along there Ray about given the fact that they were inexperienced. +And that's a problem because you really want the blokes counting who are used to counting +Precisely. +because otherwise you or I can only take your best estimate. +Oh aye +If if if you have the people doing it who know what they're doing you've really only got to look at what they're counting. +in fairness, the people what did it +Well yeah I mean bear in mind bear in mind you've got a week's notice to put one together. +Mm. +The most people that we could get together in a weeks notice, we have to put the actual amalgamation of the team +Yeah I'm not I'm not +over to someone else anyway. +And Malcolm sorted that out as you know. +Yeah I'm not criticizing that. +What I'm saying is +We did the best we could +that maybe it shouldn't have been a we a weeks notice then. +Yeah. +Correct but even The one prior to that which was apparently wrong which I think a lot of things were reconciled +Well we don't know whether it was wrong or not do we? +No exactly but I think prior to that, we did do what you're suggesting, we did go round all the areas, Dick, myself and Malcolm and Chris, walked round all the areas, told told the people what needed tidying up to go in the it was before we had the racking up by the way so it was more messy +Yeah yeah +down there. +And we tidied those areas up and we went round and said right, the people with the problem areas, take 'em round and show them. +We designated the areas, we chalked 'em off, we did as much as we could pre-prep. +This time there wasn't time to go round and do that. +Mm. +Malcolm, myself and Chris went round I think it was two days before, looked for the well it's a lot tidier that it was the previous time because of the new racking. +Mm. +It is easier to count, there's not so much in the aisles as there were. +The problem area's going to be the yard because we didn't have enough people to count the yard. +We wanted to split it into three, +Mm. +we had to split it into two. +I volunteered then to do one of the yards because you know, you're asking other people to do it, it was gonna be a nightmare. +And you did have the odd team of people like Don and Tina who o obviously hadn't done things before. +But most of the teams +That was hardly +Sorry. +They scribes, but even then if you've got somebody climbing up the top of a palette, shouting +The people were They was only scribes people I mean +what's on a palette. +Yeah but we spent three hours, Lynne, Malcolm, myself sorting that list out and everybody what was on the stock take +Who was +worked in that area. +I mean it +It we we actually got the expertise and the people. +We we had problems because there wasn't an awful lot we had the good old ones back again. +We had Loretta and Wendy and Terry , they'll come and do it. +A lot of 'em you know where's Mr . +But I mean you know, we didn't have much. +I've got a lot in reserve, you've got a +I honestly had to bully Eric to get a list. +I r You had a word with him didn't you? +Mm. +So I rang him a bit later, Now look, we've got a weeks notice, we know it's gonna take some time. +So I rang him up I said, Eric I haven't had time to ask anybody, I thought, well I'll bloody come down and ask you then. +We got that much cooperation from up there didn't we. +I mean Tina said,I I haven't done it before but if you need a scribe, I'll come in. +And we had people coming back after they'd actually done their run out there saying, Do you want any help with I mean that's what we asked them for +Yeah we had a lot of people offering help. +and they gave it. +So I mean a as a team it wasn't really a problem at the end of the day. +We ran short of numbers to do it if you like, from seven thirty to to twelve initially, in terms of the original count and the original people when they'd finished their count. +But if that that was only I was gonna say the other thing, when you're talking about damage you know, at one time I would suggest that a good many years, you wouldn't see any damage out there. +No no. +And something's changed in the intervening time, I mean I know there's aggravation and times are hard, I know we've cut back on the hours and the rest, but there's a lot of things that aren't good . +There's a lot more going out the gate for a start Stu. +Oh yeah yeah. +There's a lot hell of a lot more going out the gate +Yeah. +and it ain't coming in the gate. +Yeah but we've had we've had times before Peter when there's been huge pressure. +Thanks Bryn I think you've proved the point really by the the length of these meetings. +O normally a meeting of this type should take twenty minutes. +Mm. +Because because there's so many there's so many things that are going on at the moment that it it does take time. +Primarily because it's that time of the year when things will start going bad. +We're just at the beginning of it and this is going to go on till the end of April or May now, it'll be like this. +Chaos. +Cos it's that sort of business. +Well no +Well I don't think it needs to be. +That I know we're flogging a dead horse, but that half past ten, a phenomenal amount of time, it should never ever have taken a fraction of that if it had been done properly. +Well how many weeks Stuart have we been talking in here about bre You wouldn't know because you haven't been in here. +But we've been talking about it for three four months . +Every day. +There's water on the site, bloody, there's a borehole problem. +Mm. +He's gotta get a generator. +And it goes round and around and around and around. +Well it's true . +And the same things are spoken about every day. +Mm. +Yeah but you may spend that bloody standing at end of a bloody airfield here thinking nothing's been done . +No no no Bryn I'm just saying you know, the reason the meetings are going on +But there is I mean I've assured him that things are being done. +But it takes time. +bring the same things up. +all these massive problems that end result . +Yeah. +Oh yeah. +Yeah yeah. +But as I say +I mean I I accept what they say that you +That's right I mean the the I mean +It's part of isn't it that's . +Hello. +Okay. +But I mean +finish +this idea pettiness you know, but you're just waiting while they get their load done, to come up with some suggestion. +I mean that might be er a solution to our water problem. +I've spoken to him yesterday +You did? +Yeah, I've spoken to Tom, he wants me to get an outline price which I'll do today. +. +Okay Bryn let's get on. +Yeah that's alright. +Eric. +. +And that's about I think that's about w vaguely covered everything. +Apart from one thing, the the lads out at taking this . +Apparently when they're not on the lines, there's . +And they're doing a pretty good out there for us and Ray went out there +Cos they're restacking all the other stuff. +Re-palleting about ten thousand bales +Re-palletizing it all. +So when it actually comes it's gonna be a lot cheaper cos we're not gonna send the lads up. +You you do. +It is bless 'em. +I mean you know how much it costs don't you, for me to send those lads up there, we worked it out Steve. +Now hopefully, Dick said they're palletizing while they're waiting for the containers they're also palletizing the rest of that stuff. +So can we give 'em some bonus for their work up there. +Can we have some bonus. +How are you gonna work that out? +. +I might as well be +It's what we used to do if we took them off a line and got them cleaning up, it's a token tow pound ten a day. +Yeah. +Ten pound fifty the week. +Yeah. +Please. +Mm. +Thank you. +Is everything still alright up there Eric? +Yeah it's going fine sir, yeah. +Going fine. +And is there a chance we'll give a little bit extra for the hour to cos he's organized it, he's taken +Yeah +he's not the charge hand, he's taken charge, he's taken responsibility. +Something like the line leader rate. +Which is about ten pence an hour extra. +Is he gonna on Friday have have fax both to er and to erm s s s to fetch the elevator and the generator the generator away . +Yeah yeah. +I'll I'll ask Mark to stay there while while they're collecting it. +Yeah. +Yeah? +Yeah that's okay. +He should be that lot three anyway. +Yeah. +Well I could always ring and ask them to get the container up here earlier on Friday you see so +Well whatever time you say. +if I say if I say three +Well you can make it three if you want. +We'll be finished with it at three. +Right then I'll tell them three. +Cos I mean, the generator's not a problem anyway. +Re Oh it is for the +Yeah I was thinking of the lights and them we hardly use the lights. +Saturday because Mark Mark +Three of us +What about bringing your own lights +make sure everything is safe for the containers to come in. +So that's already gone through.. +Yeah well that what about your elevator sort that out next week or is it +Are you leaving the elevator up here? +Well no it doesn't container we don't want +the other one back you see. +Yeah. +We shan't nee the other one +Well so that one's got to go back to back to Cambridge then hasn't it. +Yeah I've arranged that but i if the lights if erm +Well caravan weren't we. +three months time. +Well you won't get 'em in in er +So three o'clock Friday then we ought to be the lights before I suppose. +Yeah. +Can't we? +Oh yeah you can fetch the lights. +You can fetch the lights Friday morning, seven o'clock Friday morning . +How many more consignments are like that Steve? +Eh? +How many more lots like that? +How many more lots have come in? +Equivalent to what we've had. +Erm we've had +It'd be about. +What have we had, we've had twenty twenty footers in. +Yeah. +Twenty. +that's twenty five, twenty, fifty five. +Erm equivalent of fifty five twenty footers. +So two and a half times as much again. +It was about twenty five more +Yeah two and half two and half time. +So about another er two two and a half weeks then, maybe a bit less. +Maybe doing two weeks. +Well I think Yeah we could put it up to three a day we'll got cos there isn't quite so much messing about you know. +We could certainly go for three . +When you say you want ,will it do a forty footer? +No it'll go twenty foot. +. +Yeah but i yeah but I mean. +seven people here doing it . +No. +It'll go about fifteen foot into the . +It's just whether it's worth having the hire for that one doing forty foot. +Well I think the one we've got is actually longer than the one you've got. +I've never seen it fully extended actually so I +forty foot. +Yeah well it probably will be cos but it I mean they've never had to go to that extension have they? +You see, with it being twenty foot, so so I've never seen it fully extended. +Okay yeah. +Yeah I've just got When +this by the way when you've finished. +Right, a few problems yesterday, a forklift and trailer keys not being signed in and I had taking them home. +Yeah. +Pete says nobody's pointed a finger, can we get big fobs on like hotel keys so they don't take the damn things home or leave them in their pockets. +Or if you +Yeah you're right I mean +Can we have big fobs on them or something so as they don't put the bloody things in their pockets? +. +Can you put that on his list for next week? +Yeah er yeah it is a good idea. +Right, Ian concerned that are hauling in grain into brig then loading six five thirty five. +Apparently according to we are supposed to grain free t certificates. +Yes. +we haven't seen one yet. +Yeah but it's in hand. +That's alright. +'s slinging a bit of shit. +That's alright. +Just for a change. +Bless him. +Right, there's one for you. +got that sorted he was speaking to Guy yesterday and apparently if after two days we don't have certificates then I +Hello? +Yeah. +Yeah. +Yeah it'll be about five minutes and then he'll be down. +Alright . +Check with him communicated that with Ian +Some problem I think on line three. +Can you go down when we've finished. +Right we're going down in a minute, yeah. +Stu Ste erm Pete said the erm hopper nineteen, have any answers, anything been thought on that one? +Well he's supposed to be testing it. +left it with er +Well he's put it on here give me an answer on what steps we should carry out on hopper nineteen. +Which is now empty or is it a sloop bed problem? +So you want them to do +No I'll see him . +Will you? +I thought they'd done it because Ray I asked a question the other morning in the Tardis, cos it was on the board. +You know they set out what +Yeah. +And I says to Ray, aren't we using hopper nineteen? +He says, Yeah I've just used it, worked perfectly. +Apparently he did use it but with a different he didn't put nutrients in it did he. +I don't know I don't know +No apparently there's no problem at all. +test with it It was all arranged I thought, testing to see what weight they got +Can you just please. +And oh probably after this meeting, not now, apparently Peter came and see me about samples procedure, I E marketing. +So you, me, Dick cos we're the ones that it's it's gonna be somebody they're gonna pull off aren't they, to do these samples. +Maybe Brian but what they want is initial contact point for somebody. +Samples for what? +Marketing samples. +Well they haven't got anybody marketing have they? +They pull on +Well that's debatable I think they've got plenty of people up here to do it it's just that they don't want to do it . +What about the young girl they got up here?young girl's here. +Isn't she there one day a week? +I've no idea. +Probably what what they'll be calling for is empty packaging, erm you know what it's like, pristine condition, samples for sales that go out you know, to customers. +I mean, the answer is that somebody's got to have a bit of experience to do it. +It's not . +What's that got to do with Peter then? +Well it's go apparently there's got to be a procedure . +It to be five seven five O. +Hello? +Sorry Phil? +It's only ten past ten. +Okay thanks. +So again after this meeting cos I want to tie it up. +It's gonna +Yeah sometime. +Peter's whingeing that he wants +Peter? +. + +Right, any comments, then on on this +No, I thought it was alright. +Thank you. +Yeah, that's fine. +Yes, works quite well. +I thought it was quite funny as well. +Er, do you think the language is actually the language that would use. +Yeah. +I I've used, in my script I've used a very loose language, like er, very, er, well, non-standard English then, because they now,erm, you know,especially after having it banned. +my experience. +So do you think this is loose enough, though. +Yeah, this is fine. +you know, I think there's erm room for like, people being able to make up bits as well. +Yeah. +Not like,you're not, it's not the way they s , like, phrase it,put a sentence together. +No. +As the way they're saying +To be quite honest man, I've never really, never really did see a problem. +If they're gonna be that type of band, they're not gonna be, thinking as how they pronounce a sentence. +Is that +How they've portrayed a excellent +It's like in in in in in interviews as well, like you don't,som some people do but, if somebody asks you a question, you just try and answer it, you don't really think about, erm, the way you construct everything. +No. +Isn't this +No. +A lot of these people English. +Yeah but. +Isn't this isn't this language a bit stereotypical of the band? +It doesn't really matter who that is. +I feel like +It's true but +If they, if they can't speak properly, they haven't got much chance of writing a song. +I mean some lyrics are pretty inane, aren't they. +Yeah. +It's +I think they're clever. +Well, they're clever in one respect, but they're not necessarily clever with words. +Yeah, well some of, some people can't really er, communicate, can't converse with er, people in normal conversation, but, er, when it comes to writing stuff down, you know, they can be very good. +Or they can converse in a sense that they can get a chord progression or a melody together that actually works, and says something, irregardless of the words. +Exactly. +The words are often the last thing that, or sometimes the last thing that people actually write. +And this, I mean, this isn't meant to be a good band anyway, is it? +Is that +The fact that they can't communicate, or they don't speak, or whatever, is something to do with. +I suppose +Yeah, but just because they're a rubbish band, doesn't mean that they can't communicate, and that's sort of the image that we're portraying here. +Or isn't that bit s s stereotypical. +So, so what. +What's the matter with words +I don't know, I just think, I just think +What's the problem. +No, there's no problem, I'm just like, saying that, they sound really thick, they're rubbish at being in a band, and it's just all so down-hill for them from the beginning, really, they didn't really have a chance, did they. +Exactly. +Exactly. +gotta have high hopes to start with. +Yeah. +But they don't that. +have high hopes. +Yeah, but they they just are are, they're just rubbish. +You know, they just, they they just not fated to be in a band, at all. +No. +Have you seen the Graham Taylor documentary? +He had to bring football into it didn't he? +Well, it's it's not exactly football it's just like a tragic downful slide, isn't it. +Er, I just think that th the the language is a bit too, sort of, proper, and that, you know, they have, you know. +He couldn't play the drums, he was too loud, that sounds too formal you know, say, he was crap at the drums, couldn't they, +Yeah. +or, +what would they say these days about you know the drum. +I mean, in in, sort of colloquial language,wh what would they say. +I think, you'd be surprised here, I do, with how the bands speak at like, especially on a rockumentary on T V. +Yeah. +you wouldn't think that they were a band like, you can tell they were on drugs, some of them. +Yeah. +The way they speak, you wouldn't. +So their language isn't basic. +No, it just terrible, no. +You know, there's ever hardly ever any swearing +They're probably not allowed to show it, are they. +Exactly, they're not, they wan they're being interviewed for television, they can't be probably their normal selves, can they. +Well, that's what this is, isn't it. +Exactly, same as +All ages. +Yeah well of course. +Famous people, you'd be surprised, people just erm, switch into a different like, mode, when they're being erm, filmed for, you know, cameras and everything. +Or recorded. +Exactly. +So the they got to erm, watch everything they say. +Do you reckon that er, word at the top there,incon incompatibility +Is that is that the kind of word that you would use about er +That would be used by the interviewer. +Would there be an official reason. +What. +Are there usually official reasons +Well, I heard a lot of peoples +Got bored with being together. +Sorry. +They become bored with being together. +They just,if they, +if they don't get on, +give up +Exactly, they're incompatible. +Mm. +Yeah. +This is, whether it's the word they'd use, or whether +Yeah, but they wouldn't use it, their manager or something like that, would say +Their agent. +Their agent, yeah. +Not that they'd have one but +Yeah, well they might have one +So, so possibly that ough ought to say,the their agent described it as +Yeah. +the reason as being incompatibility. +That, you know,th that puts it more in the context, doesn't it. +Mm. +It's what we mean by the official reason, it it's the P R person. +Yeah, yeah, it's the reason we give to the paper, or whatever. +Yeah. +The local paper. +It was in the press release, you know. +That kind of thing. +Probably wouldn't have really mattered why they split up if they were that rubbish to start with. +Yeah, well they're making a big deal out of it aren't they? +if their first gig was +Hopeless, or rubbish as to put it, yeah. +Who would really, who would really mind. +Well, if you're doing a erm, a rockumentary about them, somebody must mind, mustn't they. +Yeah, you've got to have a reason for that. +But if you, if we're doing a rockumentary about the whole got to cover for whole, whole scene. +We've got to do, how they started, whatever. +You can't just leave it open at the end. +Some somebody must be interested, otherwise we wouldn't be doing this theoretically. +I mean, sometimes a band can be so bad, but they're really interesting, cos they're so bad. +Does that make +Yeah. +I mean, you look at the Sex Pistols, for example. +I mean they were pretty awful weren't they in any sort of, musical sense, but they were so outrageous outrageously bad in some respects as well. +a good guitar player though in the Sex Pistols. +Ah. +I know when he played, he used to play it with his fists, but erm, +Nice day. +It is a nice day, actually. +quite fresh. +Yeah. +So let's, let's just talk about, we've had a look at this one, basically we're we're sort of happy enough with this, aren't we. +Yeah. +Gonna see how,per haps perhaps fits in with the other erm bits, so who's starting off, you're starting off aren't you? +I'm starting off, yes. +So tell us, tell us what happens. +Well. +Just have a quick, sort of chat about where we're going, whether it's you know, whether +Well, in the beginning, erm, this is an interview before they start rehearsing one evening, or like, what they each other play, and they're just talking about how they met and everything, cos they, the vocalist and the guitarist met in a chip shop, and knocked all the chips everywhere, and then he er, the guitarist talks about, erm, he met, I mean, he knows a drummer that's free and it turns out that it's the vo vocalist's vocalist's brother. +Although she didn't know he played the drums at all, +No. +she just like thought he was, being a carpenter or something, and this brother, erm, her brother didn't know that she sung at all, so it all turns out to be a big surprise. +Loads of coincidences. +Yes. +I think that's, that's pretty consistent, probably with how bands are formed, actually, isn't it, its friends of friends, and somebody knows somebody else, and somebody's looking round for a drummer, just happens that somebody mentions it to somebody else. +Tends to happen that way, doesn't it. +Yeah. +They just grabbed this bloke who's standing outside the music area, thinking he might be a musician and he isn't, but it doesn't matter. +Yeah. +That's it really, and they just tell them how they meet and everything. +And which character's that. +Or are they just a crowd. +Oh, that's the bassist +So is that, er, I mean, in the in the characterisation we've got, is is there particular personalities coming through here, because I think that's one of the other things we need to make sure in the script, that we've got a consistent view of certain personalities. +The thing is because, yeah, but because we're all doing different scripts +That's right. +We're portra , we're doing our own personalities for +Yeah. +each character, so +I know. +they're bound to differ. +But they've got to have to be consistent, +Yeah. +cos that's how, that's why we've got to ultimately look at all the scripts, and sort of, +Yes. +change them, to make them all consistent. +Tie them all in. +Yeah, I mean, Joe's starting it off, so, have you got a particular personalities for the characters. +Who's the sort of ringleader here? +I mean, +Yeah yeah well I think er,th the vocalist is one of, one of the main people, she's very su sure, you know, of her ability, you know, despite, you know, actual, or reality anyway +Yeah. +Erm, the gui the guitarist is very erm erm, how can I put it, erm +Arrogant? +Arrogant, yes, yes. +Did you just say +Has got to be, like, the leader? +Yeah. +Well in this I've got her as the, dim twit. +Oh, no, that's, that's the drummer, that's the drummer. +Actual of the band. +I've got her as. +Well, the drummer's pretty erm, +Yeah. +stupid really. +The drummer's th the very stupid one, and the bassist basically can't be bothered at all, you know . +As long as that's like, is the bassist James or +Yes. +Ken, Ken's the guitarist. +Ken's the cocky one. +Yeah. +The bassist just can't be bothered. +And the drummer takes everything personally, he's very er, but takes like fits and can't really see what's going on. +Well, this , would he take it all personally? +Erm, he well he +He doesn't really understand, that's why +He he doesn't understand, it's all going over his head. +Doesn't really care. +Okay, so that's the first scene, and then we move to to +Number three. +three. +I think. +Demo isn't it. +No, it's the Rock Gala, isn't it. +Yeah, recording demo's number two. +Yeah, recording demo +Recording demo. +Okay, let's see what, see what +Right, we've got they go over to the studios and start recording. +Three of the group members turn up, but one was late. +Okay, and that one happens to be Ethel Bethel. +That's yeah, that's consistent, I think, vocalists is are are always late. +Every every time. +Right, so she gets a phone call. +She wanders off to the studio,erm, a room in a house, her mum and dad's house, to answer the phone. +Yeah, cos she she could say she's doing her hair, she did coming, I mean, she's doing her hair, or something like that, or is that terribly sexist? +But it is erm, erm, if anybody wants, one of the other band members could be doing their hair. +Yeah, well that's true. +Yeah. +Yeah, anyway, she she's told to get a move on. +She gets moving, gets there she arrives fifteen minutes late. +It's time, they get to start recording, but they're missing the lyrics, so she can't sing. +That's because Ken forgot to photo photocopy the lyrics and they're at his house, with some other stuff and they discussed what happened on T V last night, but Ethel starts to get really annoyed, seeing as she was the one turning up late,and like, she was on about, we're paying a lot of money for this studio, let's use it. +Yeah, that's true. +But she turned up late to start off with. +Yeah, then they'll all have a go at her. +What do you mean, you turned up fifteen minutes late. +Yeah, then have a big argument, then. +Stand up +fall ou fall out, not getting anything done at all. +Well, that's basically it, there. +So are they all gonna fall out, at the end, and not get anything done. +No, it's it's going to the end of the interview. +can't we have some violence +See the thing is, Ethel, she's gonna, get romantically involved with Ken +with +Oh no. +I think, I think that's not the necessary one. +It's not the drummer +Bit of a twist in the story line, isn't it. +Big, yes, a big twist. +Okay, so they've just done their demo, but then are they gonna take demo to +Yeah,organising the rock gala. +To you, to you. +Rock gala, to me, yeah. +Which is a bloody good thing, really that I started off with the tape,hands +Cos I was originally gonna let them do an audition for you, but I thought, na. +No, I think tape, tape sounds like a good idea. +Erm, erm, they go to see, they, first of all it starts with them looking at a notice board with the notice on it. +Then they continue, they hand you the tape, you ask them a few questions, like what the band's called, how long you've been working together, and bla bla bla, and then erm, I think I I'm actually doing it with Kent and James and they're not thick. +No, oh, no, they're not +But, they're not, I don't have them down as thick, but they +No, no. +is +Yeah. +Mm, right, okay, that's alright then. +And then erm, erm, I've lost my thread now +Yeah James and +Kent +Yeah. +Yeah, right, and then erm, Kent or one of them is talking to you giving them your address,an no, giving them their address. +Yeah. +And so that you could send them the information about it all, and then James is just talking into the camera, saying, oh I'm really glad that this is happening, the band's gonna be really happy, finally we're on our way, bla bla,and then it ends. +Yeah, but I was thinking of +Oh no, then it goes to the rehearsals, that's the bit of the script I haven't done. +Yeah. +It shows a few rehearsals as well. +That's quite good. +Yes, yeah. +I think you'd have a er er scene of, you know, Jonathan listening to the demo in his office and +That's an idea actually, yeah. +Yeah. +So that's afterwards, yeah, +That's afterwards, yeah +So so wouldn't one normally, if they were that bad, refuse them. +No. +No, you can just look into the camera and say, erm, +Yeah. +Give 'em a chance. +That's not fair, that's not fair. +Mm. +No names mentioned. +No, it's not so, so, how do I get everything out then, if nothing is +Aw, it's like you said only got two other bands. +it's exactly what you need, though +They can go on first sort of warm up band and that'll put everybody else in context. +Exactly, make everybody else look good. +Right, so the then we got the the gig. +Yeah, which John was doing. +Yeah. +Yeah, he's talking about, he's doing a rockumentary type thing with clips of the gig, that sort of thing. +Should be interesting. +Erm in fact we, can we have a rock gala this term, perhaps we can fill them, fill them with imaginary er, gig. +And who, who are these characters gonna be, anyway. +I mean, what have we, what have we done so far, and then think about actually creating this group. +Well, I'll be the drummer. +I'm gonna be the drummer, and +Right. +I'll be the director. +okay +We did say, that that if possible we shouldn't be, actually in it. +But for the sake, I think we have to make an exception, perhaps in Joe's case, because he actually is a musician as well. +Was there any scenes with all all the characters in, because that, I mean, you're isn't it. +Mm. +really, the other three people can be filming it. +Exactly. +I mean, it would make it easier from the point of rehearsing. +Yeah, I mean +Yeah well I know but it's nice. +Mm. +Yeah, but if we're in it, who's gonna film it? +Exactly. +it it does need +I could have drummed in from outside. +Right, to play +Well, I dunno he could be erm, +Bass guitar. +He could be either the bass guitar, or the +Cos he plays a bit of guitar, +Yeah. +so we really want him not to play, case, of being not familiar with +Well, exactly. +That would be quite good. +Yeah. +And then we need a guitarist. +Well,could be the guitarist +John would look good as the guitarist. +Mm? +John would look good as a guitarist, wouldn't he. +Yeah, he does play a little bit. +Yeah, that'll do, yeah, that'll be alright, then. +And then we need, erm, +Ethel. +Ethel Bethel. +Yeah,can be it. +Yeah, but George can sing. +No I can't. +Yeah, but not this sort of stuff. +So, how's that gonna work then, if if we need people to film and things, cos I'm not gonna film it for you. +Well, I I I've well +Well, not in every scene is there, all the characters anyway. +sort of take turns in doing it. +Exactly, apart from, apart from the play, the actual play. +What the actual +And then we've got and +Do we have +Exactly. +recording +ask the questions? +Like on our, on our scenes. +Yeah. +But I'll be sitting there asking +Yeah, of course, yeah probably. +whatever questions I'm gonna ask. +interviewer +eventually get to be +So what did you do +Yeah. +try and get somebody else to ask, then we fill their own you know, scenes, cos then we get what we want. +But is there, is there a situation where there's one, where where you're all in it? +All. +On only in like the the rehearsals and, like the actual gig and +But even then, I mean, if he wants to be the interviewer. +can't just like, putting people off. +yeah, have to have the whole group there. +No, not really. +They've all got to be sat down, but +No well +chair over there +I was thinking, erm, in like +got to have the whole group there, otherwise it's +one line in my, in my interviews, in my interview +always said, but they don't necessarily. +No, no, no, in my interviews, erm, I done, erm, two two people, and they just, that way they can talk about each other without erm, having a fight or anything. +Yeah. +I mean, all th this script +Mind you, it's the, +one person and the interviewer, all of it. +Yeah,mi mind you, though, if Pete does it with everyone, then it's a change to what's been going on usually, it would be nice for a change. +Yeah. +If you see what I mean, to have that, sort of, contrast. +Yeah. +While everyone's there. +So I mean, I'm not gonna point the questions at anyone in particular, I'm just like have them answered,but I might just say to is this normal for her to be late. +Now one of them will pipe up, yeah, she bloody always late. +Yeah, well, whereas in that, if they they when the recording the demo they have to be together, don't they. +Yeah. +Ethel's not there anyway. +Not for hers to boot, +So if if, but if you're interviewing, that only leaves +Yeah, but you know, he can +Yeah +hold the cameras as well +Yeah. +Sorry? +He can hold the camera as well. +What and interview +But, wait, but the thing is yeah, there's only a few scenes where everyone's in it, right, and where people, everyone is in it, then obviously I'm gonna have help from you or from Andy aren't I? +Well, +I think we can do it. +I know you're not convinced, +No, I'm not convinced because +You're not convinced, but I think we can do it. +The idea is not that you're actors on this course, but that you're learning how to film +objection aside, I don't want to be in this at all. +Not interviewer, nothing. +Is that all of us. +So I mean, we could, we could recruit people in to do it, but the problem there is they've got to be free at the times when this course runs. +See, the thing is, everyone's gonna get the chance to be behind the camera or do some directing, because it's not. +Yeah, well if that's, if that's, I mean, that's all I am concerned about, that everybody does +Yeah, +that directing, +Yeah. +everybody does a bit of camera work and sound and things and everybody experiences those different roles that you have so far covered, you know, across the documentary, but not in every act. +Mm. +Yeah well yeah everybody'll get the chance, because erm +Definitely. +Yeah, but why . +So so we're saying, we perhaps need an interviewer, +Yeah. +and we need a we need +Yeah,discuss this really. +So, can we also think who this interviewer would be, wouldn't it be, sort of a really trendy sort of person, with, you know, I don't know yellow hair, or, you know, sort of +Oh, I don't know. +documentary. +two people, you know. +Yeah. +Where they're quite, sort of, trendy looking, aren't they. +I think they'd just be normal. +Just be I think they'd just be normal. +It's alright I was thinking about you've seen +But they aren't normal, are they, I mean, you look at N M E and you look at the language they use, I mean, that's not normal. +No, I wa I was, er er I I was thinking anyway, that it wasn't exactly like that, it's more like a Forty Minutes type thing. +Oh. +B B C. +Yeah, very over normal, +Mm. +extremely normal, because erm, I don't think N M E interviewers would bother to do something like this. +So you want some something out of cutting a complete contrast between the sort of person who's being interviewed, sort of +Yeah, I think that would probably +Yeah. +work better. +And er, laid back, perhaps +How how many actual scenes are there. +Erm, five, well five +Five. +Acts. +Five acts, and the people that took +Sections. +But have you got the +scenes. +No, no, no. +But +Have you got, have you got a +First one. +First last. +Yeah. +Yeah. +First one. +Second erm +Yeah. +So we can have like commercial breaks sticking adverts in between. +Oh, oh. +good idea. +Oh. +break coming up, you say, right +like zang, have little cliff-hangers. +Break it up a bit. +Little cliff-hangers in between. +You can have your adverts in there. +It's a shame that they're all about a drink but anyway. +This is like some getting done with the ads. +Yeah, but +, and everyone else in the group. +Oh yeah. +Cos I've been trying to organise it. +So why don't we do this other one, your your static +Yeah. +I'm actually, no I'm seriously considering doing it. +Right. +But I I really like to work with that lot, because the advert would be so funny. +Yeah, the exact, the set that would wait forever, wouldn't it. +That's true. +So perhaps we ought to realise the fact that we've never actually gonna get that one down. +True. +Unless I could do, two. +Yeah, well perhaps, well we'll need one down there +Oh yeah. +do the one that you can do. +Okay, well. +What what we need to do, is make sure these scripts are done before half term really, don't we. +When's half term? +Next week, I think. +Next week +We really ought to be rehearsing this stuff, well finalising the scripts after half term. +Yeah, and adapting and the modifying +I think what we need to do. +need to be rehearsing pretty much straight away. +Yeah. +Once we've got all the scripts done, I think we should erm, allocate roles to certain people behind the scene, so we know exactly what we're doing. +In each in each section +Yeah do +Who's doing what, yes, okay. +Right, okay. +So is, I mean, you're nearly finished with your script, +Yeah. +is there a chance that you could work on this before Friday, and have a script. +I think so, yeah. +What about you ? +Definitely, I've got three quarters of it done, already. +Right, so, so hopefully we'll have a look at all the scripts, then, on Friday. +We've got time though, don't we. +Yeah, but somebody else set +You know, I mean, they'll be some changes. +It's not essential, is it. +No. +There'll be some changes. +There's a couple of people who haven't got the essay titles from from last Friday, erm, have you got your copy of it handy , and that they could +No,I didn't copy it down +You didn't copy it down either, have you no intention of doing it, or something. +I did,at the back. +Well, I've got it written down here, and at the end of the lesson you can get it. +Is there anybody not want spare scrap paper. +Got loads, yeah, got tons at home, mum +No, because we're doing something else now. +Okay, we don't want the entire lesson held up while you did what you were supposed to have done on Friday, right. +Now, we're working on language, now, but because a question turns up every year on paper one, to do with education, we're going to be considering education, and we're going to consider education in the broadest possible way, and that is, how do we know things. +Or more specifically, start considering how you learn things. +Now you should all have a spare scrap of paper that's blank on one side, out of my recycled paper box, okay. +At the top of this I want you to write, either a skill or an area of knowledge that you have, that you possess, okay, that you're pretty proud of. +That you know, that if anybody asks you to do this, or asks you a question connected with this, you can do it. +Right. +It could be, when you go to Quasar you win every time. +It, +I wouldn't bet on it. +it could be that you're the world's expert on Michael Jackson's greatest hits, I don't care, okay, it can be anything, if you were in the scouts, maybe you can light a fire with two matches. +I don't know, whatever. +Or half a can of paraffin, if you're anything like most of the scouts I've met. +But you see what I mean. +It could just be that you're the person in your family who knows what's on all those video tapes that nobody's labelled up. +Oh, that's me. +You're not, okay. +Whatever, I want you to think about, your skill, what you're an expert at, and write it at the top of the bit of paper. +Just one? +Well, one'll do, okay.. +Where did you get it from. +haven't done anything. +Well, you're the leader. +Yeah, but I can't exactly write that down, can I? +Like like telling people I take after somebody important. +What are you good at. +I don't know. +I know, I can cut a loaf of bread on a machine. +Yeah, so can I. +I can work a till. +medium slice. +Medium or thick slice, par bake, yeah, we can do thick slice too. +Oh, okay. +Yeah. +We know. +Oh, that's bad, that is. +I know. +I've experience of cooking sixty to seventy sausage rolls, every Saturday. +. +I can work a till. +fifty pounds, it's a real bugger. +spend any money. +spend fifty pounds worth of bread, do you? +No true. +I can work a till? +Oh, right. +Yeah, and I know what to do with cheques and credit cards. +I'm a professional pick-pocket. +I'm a professional stamp collector. +I don't know, I still can't write anything down. +spend money really well. +I can work a till and I know what to do with cheques and credit cards. +Yeah. +I think I'll put that as well Mind you like everybody else put that down, but +Well it's a skill I have. +I have, I did have experience with cheques and credit cards, but that was when I was working at the chemist, but now we don't take cheques. +Right. +Don't take cheques. +Where do you work? +I'm putting that to. +Have we all got something, sh, sh, sh, have we all got something. +Yeah. +Right, now, and here's the tricky bit. +I've looked over the shoulder at a few of these and they are obviously not the sort of thing, that you came sliding out of your mother's womb knowing how to do. +Okay. +Er, so some how or another you've learned them, right. +Right, could you manage to remember how you got that skill, or that knowledge, okay. +Er, you might also want to consider, er any gains that you have got from having this skill or knowledge. +Gains? +Gains. +Gains. +Gains. +does it just make you feel good, or, has it helped you to do something else that you wanted to do. +. +If somebody's written it about somebody else's biography, okay,it's auto if it's, you know. +Okay, now, what you should have in front of you, is a recipe for successful learning, because what you've got at the top, right, what you've got at the top is something that you've learnt, and you think you're pretty good at it, and what you've got in the middle is, how you got to be good at it, and what you've got at the end, is what you gain from having it. +Really, if we can make every single one your A levels follow that pattern, for you, we'd have excellent results at the end of the day, okay. +But, let's just see, if there is a pattern, or if everybody's different. +Okay, so what we'll do, is we'll combine. +First of all, perhaps if you could all let everybody else know what we're talking about, what your particular skill is. +Do we start over here with Martin. +And go round. +It's not exactly a skill, but, I've got good erm, at work I've got a good memory, like a knowledge of all the different items an the counter. +so yours is work related. +Yeah. +Good memory, for all the items on the counter, you have learned and classified a variety of material. +Cheeses and things like that, you know. +Cheeses, okay. +Right, okay, Jo? +Good at making quiche. +Quiche. +Good at making quiche. +Fine, er a number of skills involved there. +Right. +Oh, yes. +I mean, perhaps sometime after the lesson, you can tell me how you stop the pastry on the bottom going soggy. +Okay, Vicky. +Good at making scones. +Scones. +That's mine, yes. +That's the one I always use for this exercise is scones, great. +Lynn. +Playing the clarinet. +Playing the clarinet. +We've got a diversity here, haven't we. +What about the next table. +Knowing what's on T V every night. +Knowing what's on T V every night. +Knowing what's on television every night. +Okay, so the portable Radio Times. +Okay. +Star signs and that. +Yes, you're good on astrology, is it? +Astrology? +Yes. +Okay. +Really cool. +Darren? +Erm, eighties music. +Eighties music. +Right, well again, classification of a wide l lot of material well all three of those, yeah. +David? +I like sport . +Sport. +Yeah. +Any one in particular? +Boxing, football, athletics. +Boxing, football, athletics. +Okay, in boxing, have you got a particular move, a particular tactic, a particular punch, that they've +Yeah. +Which is. +No, just go mad, no. +It's all tactics. +So it's, you're good on the tactics. +Suppose so. +Okay, right. +Assa? +cricket. +Cricket? +Mm. +Yes. +Fine. +Knowledge of, or skill at playing or +Skill and knowledge. +Skill and knowledge. +phworgh. +okay. +Hannah? +Erm, I can remember or orders and prices at work that I have to do. +Again, it's memory and classification of material. +, +yes? +I can work a till and I know what to do with cheques and credit cards when people pay. +Right. +S so th th there's a variety of different skills involved in there, the the mechanical the till and the knowing what to do with cheques, credit cards, er, have you got a sense of when you've got to check up on a card, or something like that. +Yeah, I've caught two bad ones. +There you are you see, that is a very definite skill, which she, you're using an awful lot of that one, it would be interesting to know how you developed that that skill. +Stephen? +Ozzy Osborn +Ozzy Osborn Again, material, classification, memory. +Red Dwarf. +Red Dwarf, again, the same, the material, the knowledge. +Erm, working on a till knowing what to do at work. +Right, another work related one. +The same as well. +And the same with you. +Okay, isn't it interesting, isn't depressing, that absolutely none of these things was taught you at school, except possibly the sport? +No. +I mean, I knew what was going to happen when I started the exercise, but if you contemplate it from a teacher's point of view, if I go out and commit suicide or break down you'll know why, won't you. +None of you have said, my deep and abiding love of Shakespeare, my knowledge of relevant quotations in Hamlet, have you, er, +No. +You know. +Tony Morrison and American slavery, that's my area, that's none of you, okay. +So, +let's think about what this means for education, let's er, work out how you learn , okay. +Now I might forget some of them but, er, what about er, you, seeing as how your skill is one that I haven't been able to acquire yet, Jo how did you get to make the perfect quiche. +Just trial and error. +Trial and error, I don't know, I think I've done enough of that. +Never mind , okay. +How many of the rest of you would say that you got where you are today, in your area of expertise, with trial and error. +David definitely. +My scone maker here. +Anybody else? +When you first started work, didn't you make any mistakes, Rowena? +Yeah. +But they're horrible about it so you don't do it again. +right. +Maybe I could learn how to be really horrible. +Okay, so trial and error and involved with trial and error is something that I'm almost certain that Assa and David are going to er, +come up with, and that's practice. +Yeah, a lot of practising. +Yeah. +Yeah, because you can't have trial and error without a lot of practice. +Erm, you too, Lynn. +Mm. +Yeah, there you go. +Trial and error, and practice, lots and lots of practice, okay. +Anything else, er, er, Lynn did your clarinet teacher ever play the clarinet and let you see her playing it well. +No. +No. +Don't get taught like that, no. +You don't get taugh do it like that. +Did you ever see anybody else makes scones before you started. +Erm, my mum. +Erm, right, precisely the same way I learnt the same skill, watching somebody else do it right. +Did you ever watch people at work before you've gone into it. +Yeah. +Yeah. +Yeah. +Sport, erm, I remember when I learned badminton, that the teacher would show us the high smash shot down, until we saw it being done properly, if he told us the theory of it without showing us what it looked like when it was done properly, we wouldn't have known what we were aiming at. +Does this ring a bell in any of the rest of you, that learned a skill. +Yeah. +You saw it done properly, okay. +Now, there are lots of you, have got skills involving just memorising or learning of, doing research on a particular subject, whether, obviously, your Red Dwarf, how to you go about it. +Well I bought lots of videos and then watch them a lot. +Aha. +Well, again, it's time, the commitment here Okay. +Is it the same with you with Ozzy Osborn ? +Yeah. +And you spent a lot of time reading, a lot of time finding out. +Erm, do you get together with other people who share +Sometimes. +Sometimes. +What about and the Red Dwarf. +kind of. +Kind of. +Right, so also this, the commitment is shared, we'll talk about it, okay. +And I expect that same thing happens with the work related one, that because you're never at work on your own, or hardly ever at work on your own, and the same thing when you started, you weren't ever on your own, you could say to people, am I doing it right. +What's the best way to do this, okay. +So you're learning from other people as well. +Right, okay. +Now the question is why, well it's pretty obvious with some, it's pretty obvious why Rachel wants to know everything on television in her life, I suppose. +Planning a time yeah? right? +Er, it's fairly obvious why you want to bake a quiche or a a flan, it's fairly obvious, is it, why you want to play the clarinet? +Why? +For pleasure +For pleasure. +And the work one, there's a definite incentive of work. +Now why are you doing A Level English?might want to talk that through. +biology. +And an answer has come up, with no, because they wouldn't let me do biology, you see. +You could tell each other about this, you don't have to tell me. +I'm pretty aware of it. +I was under the impression that we could choose our books. +. +Okay, have you had long enough to +Eh? +So you've got an idea +Yeah. +about why erm, +The reasons will vary. +Some of you, I'm quite sure chose to do A Level English, because you were good at it at G C S E, +Mm. +and you thought you would carry on being good at it at A level. +What? +Erm, some of you chose to do it because you like reading, you like reading books, and you thought, it would be a chance to get an A Level doing something that you enjoy doing. +A lot of you are doing it because you want to go onto further or higher education, and you needed a third A Level to add to your other two. +Right. +Now, could we just consider this, because you're all about seventeen which means that you'll be starting taking driving lessons some of you, quite shortly. +Have you ever met anybody who took driving lessons, without wanting to drive a car at the end of it. +Yeah. +Yes. +No. +Have you? +People have said, I'm taking driving lessons, but I never ever want to drive a car again in my life, afterwards. +Yeah. +It's just in case they ever needed to. +They +Well, in case. +But they didn't say they didn't ever want to ever drive a car again. +They didn't want to drive, but they did, they learnt to drive, but they they said they never really wanted to do it, but only if they really really had to do it. +Had to. +A kind of a safety thing. +Yeah. +Most of you, when you take driving lessons, what end are you gonna have in view? +Bus driver. +Right, yeah. +yes, you are taking, going to take driving lessons in order that you can drive. +But you're taking English lessons so as you can go and get a degree in sociology or physiotherapy +doing A Levels, okay. +Er, it's it's you don't have to be frightened of letting me know this, because, it it stands to reason, that it's going to happen, okay. +Now, so we haven't got the reason for you gaining this skill that you had in the case of making scones, playing the clarinet. +You learnt to play the clarinet, so she can play the clarinet. +So orchestra. +You don't learn to play the clarinet so that you can erm, be a physiotherapist. +Okay? +and fair enough, but you can be doing A Level English because you want to be a physiotherapist, and you need that other A Level, is that not true? +Yeah, er, I mean, I'm not picking, I'm I'm, I mean Rachel's in my tutor group, so I know that there is another A Level subject that she's really very good at. +And er, gets more excited about than she does English, you see. +So erm, +This is, you know, this is how it happens. +When we're in the class full of people, and we don't have the incentive, that we don't want to do A Level English for it's own sake, but for another goal which is one further removed. +What can we do about learning it. +Do you think there are some of the skills that we got from here Now there's one rather important, that I didn't put up. +It was involved with your trial and error and practice, but it was certainly involved with Vicky and that is watching, or learning from okay. +Now, can we get some of these into our English, the trial and error, yes. +If you avoid writing because you make mistakes, then when you are forced to write an exam, you'll still make the mistakes. +If you write a fair amount, and read your work critically and let other people criticise it, you will get better. +Think about people who learn really really important skills, how did they learn them? +Teachers learn in part, by sitting in classrooms, watching other teachers teach. +Did you know that? +Er, how do surgeons learn to do complicated operations. +Yeah, yeah, they learn their basic moves on corpses, so it doesn't do any harm. +Just as you learn you learn your basic modes of essay writing in essays that I'm not going mark for A Level exams, okay, erm, but there is another way. +They have to attend enormous numbers of operations and watch experts doing it. +Alright. +Sorry. +So there you go. +How can we relate this to learning English. +Trial and error, yeah, do every bit of work that's set. +Practise writing even although you think you're rotten at it. +Yes. +It's sometimes not obvious what mistakes you've made in English, it's pretty obvious to Vicky and myself when we make duff scones. +How can we tell? +Tastes horrible +Yeah. +Erm, and you know when you've gone wrong in the clarinet. +Right. +Do you know when you've gone wrong in the clarinet, and you know when you've gone wrong with the till. +And, if you remember the layout of the cheese counter you find out pretty quickly that the, +I didn't find out +Sorry, +any of the counters. +Er, any of the counters. +Yeah? +Okay. +Well what happens if you go to the wrong place? +If they ask for some cheese, you won't get it on the meat counter will you? +Yeah, quite. +So you find out right away. +Okay, and this is difficult when you hand essays in, isn't it. +Very difficult. +Time commitment. +Do we have to talk about that word, really. +I mean, how much time do you put into the Red Dwarf? +More than you put into an A Level subject? +Full time. +Yeah, probably. +Yeah!and not only that, not only that, but Dan talks about it to other fans, right. +Now +sharing it. +Well, we have talking English lessons, and we hope that you don't stray off the topic too much. +Sharing okay. +How often do you talk about what you've done in English with somebody else? +Think about it. +I won't listen, honest, you can just discuss that with yourselves. +Are you good at origami? +Origami? +Yeah. +You should have put that down. +I'm gonna, I can make you a paper star, if you'd like. +Yes go on. +Only if you make me an isosceles triangle, first. +Isosceles triangle. +I mean, no no, an equilateral triangle, please. +An equilateral triangle. +Okay? +Now. +Now, one of the ways that you will get better, is talking about it to people, okay. +Now, you may be a little embarrassed to discuss how you work with people other than in this classroom, although, as the course goes on, you'll find more and more people doing Hamlet in other classes, and you might find, especially when you're in the upper sixth, when someone in the lower sixth comes to you and says, what does this mean that you can talk about it with them, okay. +Er, but, you can talk about other aspects of English very, very easily with other people and that is what you read in newspapers, okay. +I read this very interesting article on corruption in government. +What was in it somebody asks you. +Could you tell them? +Probably if you thought that, okay, I read this fascinating article about, what's his name Richard th th you know one, the one who plays Spock. +Nimoy +Nimoy, that, Nimoy, right, I think +I read this fascinating article about him, now you can see how interested I am in Star Trek, can't you. +Not at all. +Yes, but, Dan if Dan has read an extremely interesting article about this actor who plays in Star Trek, and he meets his friend who is also a Star Trek fan. +He'd tell him what was in the article, probably won't ya. +Mm, yeah, probably. +Probably, yeah, yes, you will. +Er, certainly I'm sure Rachel shares her information, even if it's only to say, you can't watch that because something else is on Channel Four at the same time. +Right? +Mm. +You share the information you got, but you talk about it, and you hear what other people have got to say. +Right, and you can do this with newspaper articles. +Erm, you are going to be practising at least one A Level skill when you do that, and that's precis. +Because when they say, what did the article say, and you tell them, you're summarising it, right? +So you can all do a summary, every single one of you, okay. +So keep practising that summary. +The other thing you can learn is style. +What is an appropriate style for an appropriate situation, because you all read outside English lessons, and you all know that, well, what about this one, what sort of style is that in. +Mm. +What would that be useful for, what's the audience? +Language +college. +What do you think that style is. +How does it get its information across. +By writing +A list, a very simple statement. +And you've worked out the audience. +What about this one. +Do the same for this one. +Yeah, it's good isn't it, yeah. +And then for these. +You recognise these styles, that's what you're supposed to do. +You recognise this style? +Well, alright, then, yeah. +And this one. +Now have you all read examples of those styles, before? +Have you? +Have you read the, have you read articles or any pieces of writing that were like that before? +You read examples of styles like that before? +Yes. +Have you read examples in styles like that before? +Yeah. +That's an encyclopedia, yes. +And you've read bookmarks giving information. +Right. +You've all read these styles before, is that true? +You might not have read those actual pages before, but you can recognise the style, where it comes from. +You could recognise the style of a weather report, an Agony Aunt all sorts of different types of writing, er, you could probably, if your reading is as wide as it ought to be, recognise the style of a leader from er, pretty heavy newspaper, Guardian, Independent, Observer, that sort of thing, could you? +Could you tell the difference between that and the leading article from the Sun? +Yeah. +Yeah, mhm, you could, you wouldn't get those two muddled up. +Er, you could tell the difference between er, newspaper on crime and the chief constable's report. +Right? +Or, er, an article in the Times about crime prevention, or problems with youth, you could tell the difference, couldn't you. +You don't seem so sure about that, could you? +Yes, of course you could, and not just because there's pretty coloured pictures in one and not in the other although that's part of it, that's part of the presentation. +Now, if I asked you, right, to present information about this A Level, cos it's something you all know about, okay. +In the form of a very brief list of what we want to know about A Level, could you do it? +Could you make a book mark out of it. +Ju just no, +a book mark of the information you need to know about English A Levels. +Probably, yeah. +Could you write an article for somebody in the top year of your last school, about English A Level, and what they should be able to, what they should expect? +Yes +Yes, definitely. +Yeah, you could do that. +Would they look the same? +Don't know. +Don't know. +Could you write an encyclopedia entry on Beloved? +No. +No? +No. +Depends how well you know the book. +Sorry? +Depends how well you know the book. +Well, you ought to know it well enough to write five or six lines about it, which is all you need for a book. +Right and you would know what style to use, wouldn't you, or would you? +Oh, no. +What's the difference between the encyclopedia style and the other styles, then. +Can you work that out. +It just comes straight to the point +Yes, it's concise, so is the book mark, it's informative, it comes straight, but, it it's very factual, isn't it. +It doesn't say, some people think A Levels are a good thing and some people think A Levels are a bad thing, it wouldn't say something like that, it wouldn't be vague like that, it would say, A Levels are the qualification issued in most sixth forms in England and Wales, right, erm they generally need a two year course of study. +They are recognised by all British Universities. +It'd say something like that, wouldn't it. +Mm. +The facts about A Levels. +Right. +Next stage up from G C S E, the stage before er, a degree. +You're happy about that. +Now, we're going to work on summary skills this week, and you have summary skills already. +If I said to you I missed Neighbours on Friday, what happened, a lot of you could tell me, couldn't you? +Right. +Yeah, I, yes, but a lot of people could tell me, right. +Er, and if I said it about any television programme you had watched. +If I sa said to you, tell me, could you describe to me briefly the layout of where is it you work? +Safeway. +Safeway. +You could do it, couldn't you. +Easily. +Easily, yeah. +Right, if I say could you summarise the plot of Revenge of Khan could you do it? +Who. +Shows you how stupid I am about, now which is the Revenge of Khan then? +Star Trek. +Yeah, okay. +Yes, I bet, sorry? +There you are, you see. +There you are and again you get the problem, you see, that I'm just not interested, so I don't learn these things. +Erm, and it's probably the problem that a lot of you have with Hamlet, you see. +Okay, Red Dwarf, oh dear, character study of whatever the Liverpudlian's called I've forgotten yes. +You can do that, yeah, of course you could. +Right. +Could I just have your attention, it's just the end, for practice, for summary, you need to be very aware of why certain pieces of writing are written the way they are. +Mm. +Which audience demands which style, okay, we're going to be practising that over the next week, and the other skills to do with summary. +for the benefit of those who've forgotten. +You were going to look at ways of classifying the short stories you've been looking at, when y , sort of, to look at similarities between short stories, like which ones deal with husband and wife relationships, which ones are about loneliness, I mean, use your paper, it's it's only there for scrap paper, you haven't got to produce something that's gonna be pinned up on the wall. +Erm, and there is some more paper over on the the easel over there, if you want another sheet. +But just use it first to brain-storm some ideas about, you know, what sort of things are the stories about, what ideas, what themes are they dealing with, and which stories deal with those themes. +Alright, and I'll talk about, well, the lesson finishes at twelve, so if you have about a quarter of an hour, twenty minutes on that, then what I want each group to have someone who will report back on what the group's been talking about in the next twenty minutes or so. +Alright. +Any questions on that? +That's fine,things that you haven't thought of, that's coming from what they've done, okay? +So erm, spokesperson for this group. +Shall I hold it up for you, and erm, or somebody'll hold it up for you. +If you'd like to turn round, turn round and address the attentive multitude. +You might not be able to see all of this somebody will talk you through it. +Go for it. +Right, we sub-divided the whole book into four main areas, we divided into, husband and wife, male and female, loneliness and death. +Most of the stories into categories,one or two. +For a husband and wife list we've got , the Black Madonna,the Stone Trees, and the Weekend. +And for male and female, we've got all of the ones above and , Summer Picnic, The Different Nights, A Love Match, Miss Love Letters, The Man . +For loneliness we've got Miss Love Letters, Annie, No Survivor Stone Trees, Mannequin,The Visitor,The Picnic, Summer Picnic, Different Nights, Love Match, and New People. +For death, we've got Passages of The Different Nights, No Survivor and The Visitor. +Yes, any questions. +Any comments. +It's better than ours. +Better than yours. +Yeah. +Okay. +Well that's a good lead into yours, then. +Would you like to talk about yours, thank you. +this was Isabel's idea of +Shut up! +No. +Erm. +Isabel's going to work paper. +Do you want again, talk about this one, first, or gonna +No, no, no. +as you can see. +Well, what we were going to sort of do, is similar to what you lot did, but it kinda came out wrong. +Yeah. +In the sense that, we wanted to categorise them, under things like, sex, race, religion whatever, and colour code. +we're gonna be thinking about it beforehand, so, we can scrap that. +Right,decided to do away with that, because what's happening here, is what I don't want you to do really, cos we've been, we've been through the stories, separately, +Yeah. +Right, so I I actually don't want it, don't want you to do that again, we've looked at each story to see what it's about, so it's actually better to take the idea and erm, get get the stories and to write the idea. +Now actually, they do themselves down, because this is where they started, you see, can you talk about this one? +Erm, we started off with was that, erm, we would just write down any word that came up to our head, in terms of relating it to the story i.e. we thought about memories, and memories Erm, this is gonna match up with your isn't it. +Yeah. +tell us what some of the ideas of, could you just quickly go through the areas that you identified. +The areas? +Well people might like to write them down, if they haven't thought of them. +Well, sex seem to +quite large +sex written three times up there. +Erm, we've got sex and memories, women versus loneliness,, erm race, class, relationships, religion erm +couples, motherhood, incest, marriage, sadness, relations, grief that's what we think covers quite a few of the stories, don't we. +Yes, well, they haven't got round to it. +Let's, what you, Oh +Classified. +under those headings, +Yeah. +Okay. +We did try. +Yeah, we did try, I think that's quite pretty. +Okay. +Having failed, just try again, you know, the spider syndrome. +Right. +Have I got so many sheets of paper then, I need about six hundred people to erm, +Yeah, we went through these stories, and tried to link all different things they go under, got attitudes, weight, sex, exploitation, memories, mother and child relationships, old fashioned settings, aspirations, working women, ageism, husband and wife, loneliness, change, working in middle upper classes, racism and grief, and then, we started again, through the stories giving numbers, and putting them under the headings we thought they came under, but the thing is, we've got a lot of them under all, well not all the headings, but a couple of the headings. +A couple of the themes. +Yeah, we haven't got rea like they've done, you know, just four. +Mm. +But we're probably beginning to make ours smaller now. +Mm. +Yeah, erm, I mean, I think, what you've, what you've actually done is identified quite a lot more areas than they, they had four, which which they did in in some detail, and they got the stories classified, erm, what you've actually thought of, is is far more areas, which I think's good, erm, and maybe other areas to consider as well. +Erm, what would be more useful if you could identify the stories, that are to to do with memories. +A count-down. +They aren't chapters though, are they. +Erm, +It's Miss Letters is the best one, erm, The New People, Summer Picnic. +How did you get to work though, did you just like. +We had to +We all did it as part of an English lesson. +But +Erm, what else have we got The Man Who Kept Bus Station, and The Lone Survivor memories. +Alright. +What have we got then as a mother, mother and child. +July Ghost erm, Summer Picnic. +You know, sandwiches or whatever she just have, like, but it was kind of +She did have a mother. +Oh shit. +And then to, right, let's start doing that one. +Yes. +Fall from grace. +This erm, old fashioned whatever it was, is is quite an interesting area I thought, erm, whether, it sounded old fashioned to start with, an old fashioned what. +Whether it was attitudes or setting or relevance to modern life, you know, to what extent are some of the stories relevant to their time and place, and not to our time and place, so that might be an interesting area to explore. +Erm, and to look at the stories which are of a different time but are still relevant to our time and place, they have a, have a message for us, even though they were set a hundred years ago, they've still got something to say us, so I think that's an area we need to to explore. +I certainly think that this is good in terms of, it gives you a a lot of areas, even if they don't necessarily identify the stories, so, if you're, sort of taking notes about which areas. +Yeah, +that's the abbreviation obviously, but if you're looking at the areas, I mean there is, er, +I think you've identified a lot, obviously the husband and wife relationship, and obviously the men women which is, one you looked at. +Change, is an im er, as an important one, how, how different writers present change. +So, if you've got, sort of, three or four stories that you know, that you could deal with, the type of question you might get is, discuss how erm, different writers deal with the subject of change, with reference to probably about three stories. +Er, loneliness, I mean, a lot, so many of them deal with loneliness, you'd think that was a preoccupation of women short story writers, I think. +I can't see what's here, working oh, class, the class thing comes out. +Grief. +I suppose grief, loneliness, loss they're all interconnected, aren't they, so any one of those could come into it. +Morals, attitudes, again, there's a bit of a cross over there. +Sex, exploitation. +I think between you, I should think you've covered quite a lot of erm, of the areas there. +I mean, some and some of the issues are, perhaps not the main issue of the story, but er, are sort of peripheral, if I can use that word, on the, on the edge, like identified weight as a problem, which a lot of middle aged women seem to encounter and get obsessed by it, but actually, the weight thing there, but the central thing is the relationship between the husband and wife, and the weight issue is sort of, I don't know, tied up with it, but it it wasn't the main issue. +Right, so that's a brief gallop the the various issues in the short stories, does anyone want to er, speak now, or for a long time, hold your peace. +Does anyone want to say anything on the subject. +Not gonna say anything for the microphone. +Okay, then, erm, can I collect the pens up then, and erm, Wednesday, you're all going to write your assigned essay don't forget. +Julie? +Have you got time to somebody. +Essay on Wednesday? +Right, the apostrophe. +Are you ready? +The apostrophe. +Right, the examiners at A Level expect, an A Level student to be able to use the apostrophe reliably and correctly, so let's just erm, go back to basics, with the apostrophe, as it seems to cause more confusion than, practically anything else. +When an apostrophe comes just before an s at the end of a word, it shows that something belongs to that word. +So you write the car's windscreen, The Sue's bike, and the King's head, it's it's an owner, plus possession, and the owner has the apostrophe of the thing that comes immediately afterwards. +Alright? +So if a word, the word, the cars, occur at the end of a sentence as in erm, I went to the showroom and saw the cars full stop. +There would be absolutely no u need to use an apostrophe because there's no possession to follow it, it's always got to be in that pattern of owner and possession, and if it's one, then it's before the s and if it's more than one, it's after the s. +So that covers the next point about plurals. +You don't add another s obviously, cats' cradles, rabbits' feets, divers' suits, are examples. +The exception, because there's always an exception to every rule. +If the plural word doesn't end in an s, you use the apostrophe and then you add an s, and these, I think, are the only, there are three, er, is men, women and children, because the singular form is man, changes to men, so is apostrophe s, the women the same, the children the same. +So that's the only place, I think, where you're going to find, where the word is a plural, the apostrophe comes before the s, is where the plural didn't end in an s. +Write the apostrophe and then the s and that's the only reason for putting an apostrophe before an s, or after an s at the, at the end of a word. +Now that's not every word, this is what happens when you start doing the apostrophe, that, there'll then be a spate of whenever you see a word ending in s, ah, word ending in s, use an apostrophe, regardless of whether you should use one or not, now you are a lovely think about it. +If it's not in the owner possession pattern, then you don't use an apostrophe. +There are lots of words that end in s, and you don't need to use an apostrophe on them unless it's an owner. +Which, as a straightforward plural, is a straightforward plural and the cardinal sin is putting an apostrophe on a word which is a verb, which shows really you're not thinking about it. +You know, she sits by the window. +Well, what logic is gonna put an apostrophe on sits. +It's it's a verb. +You're only ever going to get an apostrophe on a noun. +You can't possibly have it on a verb, and that's another little rule you might like to think of, that you're only going to get the apostrophe on a noun, and you will never get an apostrophe on a pronoun. +So that why it's possessive. +Never has an apostrophe, it's only on a noun that you're going to do it, so, you could pick up sort of, just little, clues there as to , how to remember what you're doing. +Right, a little exercise for you. +Exercise one, put in apostrophes where they are needed in these sentences. +Okay,sentences. +Think about it, though, don't just blindly put them on any word that ends in s, make sure you know why you're putting it there. +Okay. +One minute We're welcome to collaborate with the person next to you, you don't have to do it in splendid isolation. +How are you doing, have you finished +No. +No. +the first group of four. +No +The sheep's intestines are causing people a lot of difficulty. +in number one, what have you erm put the apostrophe on. +Erm, on athletes. +Where? +Between the e and the s at the end. +Correct. +And in between the t and the s on assistants. +And that's the verdict of you all, is it? +No. +No. +Should be an apostrophe over umpires as well. +There should be an apostrophe on umpires as well. +So there should be one on assistants too. +Yes. +Yeah. +Because it's the umpire's assistant, +and it's the assistant's chair. +and the assistant's chair. +So it's the umpire's, +assistant's chair. +So I should think both of them were apostrophe before the so you got +Three. +How many of you got the three right in that one? +Is that all? +Right, erm, Martin, number two. +Erm, well I just put one on friends, between the d and the s. +You put one between the d and the s of friends. +Yeah. +Father's +It's father's as well. +Certainly I think fathers, as in my father's friend, yeah, and my father's friend's aunts, yes, so one, r and s of father's, in between the d and the s of friend's. +And councils. +And councils. +And you'd like one on, yes. +Where would you put in on councils. +Between l and s. +Between the l and the s. +Tell me, has anyone got an apostrophe on aunts? +No. +No. +Shoot yourself. +I have. +Shoot yourself. +Between the t and the s. +On aunts? +Come on get your brain going, +After the s. +what what's the possession that comes after aunts. +After the s. +? +There ain't one aunt, is there? +No, there ain't one aunt. +There ain't one +I know there ain't. +Right. +Okay, so it's on father's friend's, and council's and on nothing else in that sentence. +I'm not doing well. +Erm, Ella. +Number three. +Erm, I put the apostrophes between n and s in stations. +Yeah, between the n and the s of stations. +Mm, I put one after s in laboratorys. +You put one af after the s of laboratorys? +Mm. +No. +Between the y and the s. +Because if it was laboratories, it would be I E S. +I E S, yes. +If laboratories is plural, it would be I E S and you would have the apostrophe after the s then, but it's obviously singular, cos it ends in y so you put it after the y and the s. +And erm, Charlie! +The sausage skins +Oh yeah. +I put one between +Pardon? +I haven't done that one. +You haven't done that one. +No. +Well, would you like to have a go? +No. +Put one between p and s on sheeps. +You'd like one between the p and the s of sheeps, yes, I would agree with you there. +Erm erm, the n and the s on skins. +No. +No. +No. +Skin's what? +No. +Skin's what, what's the word that follows it Charlie? +Are, +Skins are +It's not you can't have it on skins. +Mallards, then. +Yes, we'll have one on mallards, between the d and the s. +Don't have to, though. +Pardon. +It looks like, it could be a name, because Mallards could be the name of a company. +like. +Well +No, it's not. +I mean, if the company was Mallard, then +In a Mallard , but Mallards, you don't know, though, you start +At the end. +I think you should like, forget that one for a while, because that +But you can't Mr Mallards, can you? +Well, I did, I don't know,I've crossed mine out, so I wasn't you see, +Oh, right. +and you can see the crossing out there. +We should have an enquiry, whether it's Mallard +I don't think we need to type an enquiry, I think that the people who realise that, the fact that you had got there is meant to indicate to you that name of the firm was Mallard, and therefore by using by using Mallards, sausage skins, they're expecting you to use apostrophe s. +Yeah. +Erm, and so that's all you need, +Between the d and the s of Mallards, and the p and the s of sheeps. +Did anyone put, did anyone put apostrophe after the s of sheeps. +No. +Cos it's one of these words where the plural doesn't end in an s. +Sh. +Right, put your hands up if you got all of those right +Okay. +I would have got them all right except for +Fine, right. +Now try the next s set of four then, and erm, see if you can er, improve your score. +I like the second one, next one. +That's right . +It's they, if it's the same +Would you, would you like to do a group collaboration on this one, because erm, can you come up with a version that your group agrees on? +Yeah, that's true, Wendy + +Erm, +It's Culture Beat and Cherry Lips, which is our out-tro music +Erm, +but unfortunately, something's wrong with the equipment, or something +Oh, I see +so it jumped to this different track, with different timing, and it came up, I like you, so I thought, oh, let it roll. +Is that an early Christmas present, that sweater? +Do you know how old this sweater is? +No +What do you think, what do you think? +Pam Dixon's here, the bearded wonder has taken himself off for the weekend +Yes, er +I thought you were calling me the bearded wonder then. +Dominic's changed dramatically, +I know, I know +Dominic you do look strange since +Yes, I know +And this is +The nicest looking edition of Dominic I've ever seen +A much better Dominic, you've improved dramatically +Thank you very much +Yes +This is, you're not gonna believe this +no go on tell, tell me +Right, like it, it is about fourteen years old +Is it really? +It looks, it looks as good as +Is it nice? +Yes Christmas red you see +And still, still still fits you, you haven't put a weig you haven't put any weight on at all. +Anyway +It's running up the stairs that does it. +Pam's rather impatient to get on +Is she? +Oh why? +Yes, she absolutely is so, we'll have to erm, find out from you what they've been talking about. +Well, we had our Friday debate +Mhm. +and the Friday debate was, Christmas has lost its meaning because of commercialization, it was er the old chestnut, you know. +Well, ninety percent, nine O percent agreed. +Erm +Ten percent disagreed, and I was not surprised. +it starts a lot earlier, doesn't it, ever earlier. +It does, end of November, we've got another two weeks to go, oh it's, Christmas should be Christmas shouldn't it? +You know, one of the effects are a little bit tranquil but anyway, the other thing which erm, everyone really enjoyed, er, cos I know you would remember this er, Dougie, is your first kiss +Oh, I don't think I can, it's so long ago. +Oh come on Douglas, come on +No, no it's so long ago, no, no, no, no. +Can I ask you, when was your first kiss, Pam? +It was erm, I shouldn't think, I shouldn't say this on the air, it was f on a cellar steps, at a teenage party. +Disgraceful, that! +I had to go and look at somebody's chandelier, that was hanging in the cellar +Really +erm +Oh dear, Dougie's getting a bit, I see Dougie's getting a bit er, yeah, erm +A bit hot under the collar. +Anyway, one lady said, +Go on, +one lady said she was put off for life after her first kiss, and never kissed another man. +She's now in her seventies. +Yes, it's the effect you have on women +Someone had a kiss in a broom cupboard. +I don't know what that was like +a broom cupboard +lovely, +a kiss after Postman's Knock, +yes. +and one lady was told by someone who kissed her first, first kiss, said to her, she was just a natural +Right +I thought , so I'll leave it at that +as the song says, a kiss on the hand is quite, continental, diamonds are a girl's best friend. +Right, and on that happy note, we'll start with the news, Dave thank you very much indeed. +Well er there's some happy news. +Three British hostages are on their way home from Iraq, after being freed from a jail in Baghdad. +The release of Paul , Michael and Simon follows a mercy mission by former Prime Minister, Sir Edward Heath. +Iraq is denying that the move is a bid to have sanctions lifted. +Well it's one of the talking points this morning, if you'd like to give me a call. +Has a deal been struck do you think, what's in it for Saddam, what's in it for Britain? +I'll be talking to our diplomatic correspondent, David Spannier, later in the programme. +In fact, after the seven o'clock news, but if you'd like to get ahead with er one of your comments, then it's . +Labour has broken off parliamentary relations with the government, the move which will end the system of pairing for Commons' votes, is in protest of plans to rush controversial legislation through the Commons. +And, health and safety watchdogs say they're not convinced the Channel Tunnel has sufficient safety measures in place to protect passengers. +The tunnel is due to open next May, but the Health and Safety Executive say procedures still haven't been tested. +On that talking point perhaps, would you go through the Channel Tunnel, knowing what you know about it at the moment? +Anyway, Pam Dixon has sat very, very patiently through all this claptrap with laddie, now here's the sport. +and Michael and Stefan Edberg meet in the semi-finals of the Grand Slam Cup in Munich. +The winner is set to be some half a million pounds better off. +And you might be better off if you put a tipple on the old racing today. +It's at Doncaster and Cheltenham. +Well, Derek had another winner, he's had a very good week Pam, by his standards. +He's had three winners in four days, and he had at Fakenham yesterday, at fifteen to eight, so not too bad a day for again yesterday. +Fingers crossed. +Right, see you in the six o'clock news er spot. +Okay. +Okay, right, time to check on the first travel report of the morning. +Rob morning Twenty one minutes to six the time, if you'd like to give me an early ring, then it's . +Well, quite a few talking points this morning. +First of all, the main story in our news at five thirty, and I think unless anything more dramatic happens, it will be the main story right through the news bulletins of this programme. +Three British hostages on their way home from Iraq after being freed from jail in Baghdad, Paul , Michael and Simon . +They're released, and all this follows a mercy mission by Sir Edward Heath. +Well, I wonder if you feel that er, there's something more to this than meets the eye. +Saddam has never been known for doing something for the benefit of others. +It's obviously for the benefit of Saddam, and I wonder what you think that benefit might be? +Do you think some deal has been struck? +Saddam certainly has done his best to milk the whole occasion. +I think it was er fairly evident that he had given permission for the three British hostages to be released after Sir Edward Heath's meeting with Tariq . +But er no, Sir Edward had to go through the full rigmarole of a meeting with the great man, I put that in inverted commas, but er I suppose he thinks he is, the great man himself, Saddam Hussein. +So, I wonder if you feel there is a deal. +I wonder if you feel that even if there was a deal, the British government, the Foreign Office, represented as they were, so admirably really, by Sir Edward Heath, he seems to have done a very good job, I wonder if he had to work very hard, or do you think perhaps, anybody could carry that out? +Sir Edward, of course, has had experience in getting hostages freed before. +So er, perhaps he was the man for the job. +There's a lot to discuss here, and er I just wonder if you'd like to throw in your two penn'orth before I talk to our diplomatic correspondent, David Spannier on this subject, after the seven o'clock news. +is the number to ring. +Now, another story that is er an interesting one this morning, and I'd like to hear your view on, families with two television sets could soon be paying twenty pounds extra for their licence, to lessen the burden on hard-up viewers. +Well, a lot of people might think that is very fair, the new charge would mainly hit households where the children are allowed their own sets. +But of course, a lot of er family homes now have er more than one set, perhaps more than two. +There's generally one in the main parents' bedroom, perhaps there's one in one in er one of the youngsters' bedrooms, there could even be one in the kitchen these days. +So er, I just wonder if you feel it is fair that er you should pay twenty pounds extra for another set. +I wonder if you should pay twenty pounds more again if you have a third set and again if you have a fourth set. +Give me your views on this. +Other changes, this is the Commons' Heritage Committee of MPs who er were sitting yesterday, under their er leader Gerald Kaufman, the former Labour politician, well he still is a Labour politician, but er he's not so high profile now in politics, but he seems to be creating a bit of a stir here. +Other changes include high, higher charges for hotels, a new fee for car radios, and an increase in specialist programmes, funded by subscription. +But I think the twenty pounds extra for another telly is the one that er you might like to comment on this morning. +. Health and safety watchdogs say they're not convinced the Channel Tunnel has sufficient safety measures in place to protect passengers, and after that incident a few weeks ago, which was er certainly played down by the authorities, I wonder just how safe the Tunnel is. +Well, it doesn't open till May, but the Health and Safety Executive say that safety procedures still haven't been tested, and even if they had, would you go through the Tunnel? +I was at a dinner other night, er where er French Railways were the hosts, and of course they were doing their best to er tell everybody to travel through the Tunnel naturally enough, because that's what their trains will be doing come May, and er one or two people, it must be said, were just a touch sceptical. +I wonder, if you'd been at that dinner, would you have joined them in their scepticism. +. Now, at around twenty five minutes to seven, I'll be talking about a fascinating report in She magazine, and it's entitled How to Survive House Guests from Hell, and it's a seasonal item, and of course we all know that er we, a lot of people er go to stay with friends and relatives over the Christmas period. +Frequently they stay for some days. +And it will be some days this time, because Christmas day is on Saturday, so it's a very long, long weekend and holiday period. +So if you have house guests for the festive period it could be that they might be staying four or five days. +I wonder if you're looking forward to it, perhaps many of you are? +I wonder how many of you are dreading it, it's the duty visits, it's the duty receiving isn't it really? +There's a Danish proverb, you know, that states that fish and guests smell after three days and er we all know the visits which have begun so successfully from friends and relatives, it needn't be Christmas, it could be at any time of the year, which are often ruined by people lingering on well past their sell-by date. +So, we'll be looking at er, some of the categories of people who come to stay. +And we'll be looking, more importantly, at how you can perhaps get rid of them when you want, or even better, er put them off altogether. +That's er a little bit of fun in that, but er we might have a little bit of advice for you if you are preparing to receive guests you'd rather not see over Christmas. +If er you've had dreadful experiences with er guests staying at your place, give me a ring on and share your horrid experiences with me. +And of course the tragic death, far too early really, for Danny Blanchflower cut down by disease, and er one of the greatest footballers, I suppose, not only of his generation, but of anyone's generation and er, how sad it is, that we should lose two of our greatest footballers in this one year. +Both the old style wing-halves, I suppose they'd call them mid-field players now, Bobby Moore and now Danny Blanchflower. +Danny graced the Spurs team of course, er completed the double with them, when he was captain, and I know a lot of Spurs supporters will remember those days. +Perhaps you'd like to reminisce and say was he one of the greatest players ever to put on a Spurs jersey. +I suspect he was, or come to that a Northern Ireland jersey. +It's fourteen minutes to six. +A quick reminder, many people will know, but a quick reminder and er, if you've perhaps just come back from holiday yourself, or you're one of our new listeners, you may not know so I'll tell you, Douglas Cameron's Breakfast Call, this very programme, will be breaking new ground at the end of next month. +We'll be travelling down under to Australia, and coming live to you for a whole week from Sydney. +And, this is the exciting bit as far as you're concerned. +You could be travelling with me. +We're looking for two couples to make the trip with the programme. +It'll be a working holiday, but my goodness it'll be the experience of a lifetime and to find out how you can join us stay tuned for the Dougie Down Under competition thanks to QUANTAS, Australia's national airline. +Eleven minutes to six is the time, and if you'd like to give me a ring on any of the subjects I've mentioned, then it's . +People are joining us all the time, so I'm very briefly er just in a word or two, going to go over the subjects, and then if you want to give me a ring, please do so. +. The main story of the morning as far as our news bulletins are concerned. +The three British hostages, released from jail in Baghdad, now on their way home from Iraq. +Sir Edward Heath has done an admirable job, do you think that the die was cast anyway? +That er any er public figure worth his salt could have achieved what Sir Edward has done, or do you think he's brought something special to the negotiations, and why has Saddam done it? +Not for the benefit of others, he never does anything for the benefit of others, one can only feel that he sees some advantage in releasing these British people. +What is it? +Has a deal been struck? and if a deal has been struck, what do you feel it might be? and do you really mind, as long as these people have been released? +And let's not forget there are one or two more in there as well. +They may not be British, but er there are more hostages in there, because hostages really are what they are. +Twenty pounds more for any extra television set that you may have in your house. +Do you feel that's fair? +Another twenty quid if you have a second television set on your licence, I wonder? +And, how to survive house guests over Christmas. +If you've had a horrifying experience with some visitors that you've invited, then let me know. +. Nine minutes to six, the time. +Frances has joined me from Harrow. +Good morning. +Good morning. +I would just going to talk about the television licences. +Please do +Erm, well if we have to pay twenty pounds extra for erm, an extra television, what about the shops that sell them? +Mhm. +Will they have to pay twenty pounds for each television that they have? +Because I assume they pay er, just for one licence now? +Do you feel it's a good idea? +No, I don't. +I mean, some people erm, are elderly and they're confined to their homes, they may have one downstairs, and one in their bedrooms. +Mhm +I mean, I only have one er, I would like two, but my husband doesn't want another one, but +Is, is that because you can't afford it? +Oh no, well erm, I assume we could afford it, he just doesn't like one in the bedroom so we have one downstairs. +Fair enough. +Mhm. +But other people erm, I, I think it's a lot of money. +It's enough that you have to pay for the licence, which is erm, what is it eighty pounds +Er over eighty quid isn't it? +Yes, that's right +Eighty three pounds I think. +Well, it's erm, every other station on, on erm, has erm, advertising, why can't the B B C now have advertising? +Ah, well now that's a different erm barrel of worms isn't it really? +Well, if that's going to help them with the money, then they won't charge for extra televisions. +Right, so you reckon that er they shouldn't charge twenty quid more for another television set, they should take some advertising? +That's right +What on B B C One? +On all of them, why not I mean, erm, on B B C One and B B C Two. +Every other station has, you even have advertising on radio, why can't you have it now on B B C One and Two and cut down the eighty pounds ? +Well yes you don't have advertising on B B C radio of course do you? +I mean the B B C er television and radio is er still what we call er, state controlled, isn't it really? +Not, not a commercial sector at all. +Yes, but if erm, they want to put their licences, er they're the only ones that have the revenue from the television anyway, +Mm. +why can't they now decrease that, and er start doing advertising? +Okay Frances, well, er, we'll get some comment on that after the six o'clock news, I'll be bound. +Never mind paying twenty pounds extra for a second television set, and another twenty pounds if you have a third set in your house. +Why don't the B B C, both radio and television, take advertising, and then we not only would not need to pay an extra twenty quid, we probably wouldn't need to pay the eighty odd pounds that we're paying already for a colour television licence. +And now throw something else in. +How about a special purchase tax on televisions, what do you feel about that? +Ring me, and we'll take your calls after the six o'clock news. +The number, as ever,. +It's six and a half minutes to six. +Judy Flowers here to have a look at our stars. +Good morning. +Good morning, Doug +Well, it's a bit of a sandwich this weekend, isn't it really? +It is . +We t we sometimes talk about sandwich days don't we, sort of you know the morning, the evening and the middle of the day? +Yes, we do, we do. +Well, this is very much a sandwich three days, because we've got today and Sunday looking quite good, but a rather difficult and tense Saturday sort of tucked in between. +B er, both today and Sunday look very good for socializing and generally enjoying life, but on Saturday I think it's going to be very important to keep things in perspective. +Why is that, why has Saturday got in there? +Among the bad ones? +Well, we've got, er, we've got a difficult aspect, a rather tense aspect. +It's got nice flowing aspects today and Sunday, and these rather tense ones coming up on Saturday, so that's why it is. +Mm. +And, this is particularly so, this er keeping things in perspective, for you Sagittarians tomorrow. +Well, I'll tell you one thing, Monday's not gonna be wonderful for me, I've got to go into hospital for a little operation er b but seriously, I'll be out on Tuesday, but I'll, I'll be away for the week er, because the Doc said don't come back to, to work till a week on Monday, so I'll, I'll try and listen if I can, but what have you got for us? +The aspects on Monday are very good, Douglas, so don't worry. +Are they? +Good, good. +Yes, there's a new moon and a lovely aspect between Mars and Saturn, which is all about disciplined and constructive action. +Have a very good weekend everyone, Douglas, have a, like I said, a good week, get well soon, come back and see us soon. +I'll be back with Jeff Clark on Monday. +Yes, indeed, Jeff here on Monday. +I'll be back, er, hopefully a week on Monday. +Hope so anyway. +Right, erm, the travel before the six o'clock news. +Thought we'd play a little er different version this morning, just to er change things round a bit, but the message is the same. +At the end of January, Douglas Cameron's Breakfast Call will be broadcasting live from Sydney, and in the next few minutes, I'll be telling you how you can win the chance to travel with me, all expenses paid. +Stay tuned for the Dougie Down Under competition, thanks to QUANTAS, Australia's national airline. +Nine minutes past six, and it's the morning of Friday, December the tenth, if you've just joined us, as many people do after the six o'clock news, or even before the six o'clock news, welcome along to the programme. +Now some of the main talking points this morning, certainly the big story as far as the bulletin is concerned this morning, or one of them anyway, one of the top two. +The three British hostages, who are on their way home from Iraq, after being freed from jail in Baghdad. +The release of Paul , Michael , and Simon , follows a mercy mission by Sir Edward Heath. +Iraq is denying the move in a bid to have the sanctions lifted, but er I just wonder. +Er, we heard yesterday from some of your phone calls, and indeed we heard, and some of us may have seen on the television news on Wednesday evening, the desperate plight that many Iraqi civilians are now in. +The sanctions really are beginning to bite and I wonder if Saddam feels that er he may be able to ask a favour or two from the West, in return for the release of these three British men. +He never does things er for the good of er the people concerned. +It's generally for the good of himself, and I wonder what's at the back of his mind with the release of Paul , Michael and Simon . +Do you feel some deal has been struck with the British government? +If it has, do you worry about what deal it is, as long as these three men are released, or do you say we shouldn't do deals with people like Saddam? +Did it send a feeling of revulsion down you er when you saw Sir Edward Heath shaking hands with Saddam Hussein yesterday? +Or did you feel, well, he's done an admirable job. +Do you feel that anybody could have done that job? +Or did it have to be somebody like Sir Edward? +A lot of things to answer, and er I'd like your replies please on on that particular story. +Now, already we've had calls on the next story. +Families with two television sets. +How do you fancy paying twenty pounds extra for the second set? +Well I know you don't fancy it, but do you think it's fair? +Well, this has been suggested by MPs on the Commons' Heritage Committee, and this is part of their proposals to spread the burden of the B B C's one point six billion pound costs. +It would, they say, lessen the burden on hard-up viewers who can't afford the eighty odd pounds, I think it's eighty three pounds isn't it for a television li a colour television licence now? +Anyway let's call it that, it's around that. +Eighty three pounds. +It would er reduce the burden on those who can't pay. +So I wonder what you feel? +And I wonder if you feel that er if you have three television sets, then you should pay twenty pounds for the second and another twenty pounds for the third. +Now, er some people are ringing up this morning saying well why, why the devil should we pay. +Why if the B B C want to make more money, first of all, can't they get after the licence dodgers? +Well, I think they are making great inroads now into catching a lot of people who er simply refuse to pay er their television licence, but of course there are a lot more who er are still escaping the net. +But er, if they got a few more of those it might help. +But the main thrust of your argument this morning, is that the B B C, both television and radio, should take advertising. +Well, I wonder if you feel that's a good idea. +I know people who will say it's not a good idea, and that's the people in commercial television and commercial radio, who, if the B B C started to take advertising, would see their slice of the cake get just a touch less. +So, er we here may not think that the B B C should take advertising, but er let's hear your views on . +The Channel Tunnel in the news again this morning. +Health and safety watchdogs say they're not convinced that it has sufficient safety measures in place to protect passengers. +The Tunnel is due to open next May, not very long really you know, but the Health and Safety Executive, say safety procedures still haven't been tested. +Well, we had that incident didn't we, several weeks ago in the tunnel, which the authorities er tried their best to play down? +I wonder, bearing in mind that incident, however serious, or minor it was, would you be one of the first to go through the Channel Tunnel? +Er, would you be perhaps, er, willing to see how it went, and then maybe go through it next summer or next winter, or would you never, ever go through it ever? +. At twenty five to seven, just after the six thirty news sequence, we're gonna be talking about a report in the latest issue of She magazine. +Everyone, I think, is vulnerable to the guest, or guests that descend upon you from time to time. +Generally relatives from Scotland in my case, and decide to stay, having invited themselves, and you can't really turn them away, er, decide to stay for two or three days. +Well, some of them you greet with more affection than others, it must be said. +And er, a lot of people of course, will be looking forward, or perhaps dreading Christmas, and the guests that are coming to stay at their house. +If er, you've got guests coming, are you looking forward to it, or are you not, and er I'd love to hear some horror stories of er past Christmases, when you've had er perhaps unwelcome guests, or guests who've overstayed their welcome. +Well, we may have a few helpful hints. +I'll be talking er, to the writer of the article in She magazine in about twenty minutes' time, and er we'll discuss with her, how you make the best of these unwelcome guests. +They fall into some categories don't they, like the lazy slob, who never does anything, never washes a dish or ne never helps at all around the house, so even though they stay there for about a week. +So, er, I'm sure we all know them, how to stop them coming, or get rid of them as soon as possible. +That's what we'll be attempting to find out in twenty minutes' time. +And Spurs fans especially, but football fans in general, I'd like to hear your tribute please, to Danny Blanchflower who died so tragically at the age of sixty seven yesterday, from Alzheimer's Disease. +I suppose er, he must be in the top ten of all-time great British footballers, wouldn't you say? +One of the greatest players ever to put on a Spurs' jersey I would think. +A man who led Spurs to the League and Cup double, some thirty or so years ago. +You must have some memories of Danny Blanchflower, playing for Spurs and Northern Ireland, if you'd like to share them with me, it's . +It's sixteen minutes past six. +Seventeen minutes past six is the time, and we still have some trouble on the travel front because we've got delays on the Northern Line of the underground. +When I say we've got some trouble, we do, but it's not like the trouble we had half an hour ago, when in fact there were three lines, sections of which there were no trains on at all. +But, er, that's been resolved fortunately, we've still got some delays on the Northern Line, and er, obviously do allow yourself a little extra time if you're a Northern Line traveller. +If you're one of that unhappy breed. +Maybe I'm doing them a dis-service, but I don't think so. +Right the cancellations on British Rail. +Right, we'll take some calls after this, starting with Humphrey from Kew, David from Pinner and Bob from Edgeware. +And that by now familiar music to many of you means that in five minutes it will be the Dougie Down Under competition thanks to QUANTAS, Australia's national airline. +As many of you will know, we are going at the end of January, with the programme, to Australia, to be broadcasting live from Sydney for a whole week to mark Australia Day. +And we're looking for two couples, er it needn't be husband and wife particularly, although it'll be er very nice if it is, but it can be mother and daughter, father and son, any combination you like really. +Two couples to come to Australia with us, and to act as roving reporters, travelling round the country, reporting on what they see to me, on the telephone, live on the programme, all expenses paid, thought I'd just er let you know that er very important fact. +And of course, the fact that you are going to be roving reporters will mean that you will have to, if you become a finalist, be able to do an audition live on air. +You must of course, have a valid passport, and you must be free to travel in the last two weeks of January. +So, in five minutes, I'll be asking you the fifth and final question, which could result in you're going out next month with Dougie Down Under, thanks to QUANTAS, Australia's national airline. +Twenty and a half minutes past six is the time. +Humphrey has rung me from Kew. +Good morning. +Good morning Douglas. +Erm, I want to talk to you about erm, em,hosp hospitality over Christmas. +Right. +Erm, to, to, as, as, this,part of it, part of each other,Th Th Thursday, one horrific er erm, guest that my mother had in, in our house down in Gloucestershire, erm, she has a lot of clients, er erm, she's an artist, erm, erm, this woman, erm, er,w er, went up to her bedroom, and erm, and was standing b b by the electric fire and fire, and erm, very nearly scorched her nightdress. +In er incredible, and erm, she asked to come away, and erm, erm, she, my mother was, was up, up half the night with it. +What +Oh, That's all you need isn't it, really? +Yes. +Yes, absolutely, set the house on fire +Oh, my goodness me, Humphrey that's a horrifying experience. +Yes, yes. +And I wonder if anybody can match that, I don't mean match that, when she nearly set off her nightdress on fire +Quite but I no +it's a Freudian slip isn't it really? +But, er what a horrifying experience. +Of course, these things can happen really, er especially if er, one of two of the guests, I'm not suggesting your mother's guests er over-imbibed, but one or two of the guests do have a few jars over Christmas and they get up to all sorts of things in the house don't they? +Douglas, I've got two very, very, very, quick, quick, quick very funny stories, +Yes +erm,f from the erm, erm, former Bishop of Gloucester, erm, what is erm, and what is your erm,def definition of hospitality? +What is my definition of hospitality? +I don't know Humphrey, what is your definition of hospitality? +Making people feel at home when you really wish they were. +And another one, +Yes? +erm, what is your definition of happiness? +Definition of happiness, what is it? +Eating with nice people,drinking with nice people, and sleeping with a clear conscience. +Humphrey, thank you for that. +Twenty two minutes past six is the time. +David has rung me from Pinner. +David good morning. +Er, good morning Douglas. +I'd like to well, number one I'm an Arsenal fan, but I'd like to speak up on er on the tragic loss yesterday. +Of Danny Blanchflower? +Because to me Danny Blanchflower, we lost England's number one, now we've lost Ireland's number one, and it looks like we could even lose John , before long, of a similar type of er illness. +Yes, I, I was actually just saying to my wife last night, erm, who would have ever thought that in the same year, we could have lost two of the greatest wing-halves, as they were in those days, but I suppose mid-field players they'd be known as today, who'd +Yes. +have ever thought in the same year, we'd have lost two of the greatest players that this country has ever seen. +Yes, but er, the other thing, Douglas, the sad thing about it was, Danny Blanchflower was great er, on and off the field, and it was the old heavy ball, and the longer you played with it, the heavier it got, and then you had that lace in the centre, difficult to er, head a ball, then you had the studs, well, as you know yourself, it's nails. +Half of them were badly worn, everybody was open to erm, serious leg injuries +Yes. +and erm, that finished er, er, Derek er, er of Sheffield Wednesday. +Derek +Derek , sorry. +Derek . +That's right, yes. +But er, finally about er, our great er Tottenham er player. +I don't think the guy was ever booked. +No, I shouldn't think he probably was, David, thank you very much indeed. +Anyhow, I hope all goes well for you next week. +Don't worry, it's not too bad Douglas. +Bye. +Oh, you've had one have you? +Yes, they're referring to the fact I'm just going for a, it's a hernia operation actually, so er everybody says, oh you, no problem at all. +Hope they're all right. +Bob from Edgeware. +Good morning Bob. +Good morning. +I haven't recovered from Humphrey yet. +Erm, +He's a card, isn't he? +erm, right, Julie erm . +I'm glad her husband and all the others are coming home. +Yes. +But I'm very annoyed with er, the incessant canting about the John Major government. +Does she really think that Edward Heath would have got the connivance of the Foreign Office or the government, without it being sorted out beforehand? +All it needed was for the envelope to be stuck down. +You, you don't think then, that Sir Edward Heath did anything special to get the release of these men? +Not really, and to use your words, was there anything about any revulsion of watching them shake hands with Sa that animal, Saddam Hussein. +Well, I wonder. +You see, see. +I, I, I, I just wonder how many people would say oh, that's awful. +I never thought I'd see the day when a British politician shook hands with Saddam Hussein. +W w what was your own particular feeling Bob, on that? +Well, I don't, I'll be fair. +I don't like Edward Heath at any time, so I'm slightly prejudiced. +He went there, he shook hands, he'd shake hands with a vulture if he thought he could get him up the pedestal, but that's neither here, something was done. +A deal was done. +I don't think there was a promise, you will get. +The promise was probably vague, we'll see it, we may use our good offices to the United Nations to some sort of embargoes or, that's all ca they're likely to be promised because we're not in a position to promise anything. +Okay Bob, well Bob thinks that a deal was perhaps done. +We'll be talking about this to our diplomatic correspondent, David Spannier after the seven o'clock news. +It's now six twenty six. +Right time for the Dougie Down Under competition, thanks to QUANTAS, Australia's national airline. +Two couples must win an all expenses paid trip to Australia with me, when the Breakfast Call comes live from Sydney at the end of January. +We've had four questions already this week, if you missed any of them, we will be repeating them next week, but now here is the final question. +What is a baby kangaroo called? +What's a baby kangaroo called? +Now, as soon as you have the five answers, and do remember that if you er, didn't hear any of the other ones, they will be repeated next week, so you'll have a chance to write all the five answers down. +I want you to send them in to me, and here's where er it becomes a little bit different from other competitions, I want you to send them in to me on a Christmas card please. +We want to get really festive about this, so answers on a Christmas card only please, to the following address. +. Answers, the five of them, on a Christmas card, to and your cards to be in please, by first post, next Friday, the seventeenth. +Six twenty seven. +Right, after the six thirty news sequence which is coming up directly, we'll be talking about a fascinating report in the January edition of She magazine, about house guests who may well be coming to you for Christmas, and who may well outstay their welcome. +We've all had them, haven't we? +in the January edition of She magazine, but although it's the January edition, it er does pertain to Christmas, because it's all about the guests you invite to your home over the festive period, some of whom you could well do without. +Well Christmas coming on apace, it's twenty two minutes to seven by the way, and it's coming far too fast for er many people I know. +It's er gonna be with us a fortnight tomorrow isn't it really, and I wonder if you've got people coming to stay over the festive season, and I wonder if you're looking forward to it? +Undoubtedly, some of you will be, but there must be one or two people who are actually dreading Christmas er bearing in mind that they've had to ask somebody whom they don't really want in their house, or perhaps that person or people have asked themselves, and it's very difficult to know how to refuse isn't it really? +Especially when they come from a long way, away. +Well, how to deal with such guests, and er what sort of categories do they fall into. +There's a fascinating article in the January edition of She magazine, it was written by Madeline Rice and she's on the line to me now. +Madeline a very good morning to you. +Good morning to you. +Right the problem is of course, that a lot of these visits start off quite well, but they wear a bit thin after the er third or fourth day, don't they? +Yes, there's a er favourite proverb of mine, a Danish proverb, that says er fish and guests smell after three days, and I think +I think that's probably quite true. +I think after three days they've er worn out their welcome. +They, they've seen all the sights, and they've eaten the best of the food and er, erm, it's time to go really, before you know they get, they outstay their welcome, and go past their sell-by date. +Nice way of putting it . +Some people never quite know when to go, don't they? +Oh, some people just, you know, I've a, a friend who's erm, who was with someone at college and he er, said he was gonna stay for a week, and you know, months later, he was still there. +I mean, so that guest, that is absolute peril. +Yes,an and one never likes, er, the minute they're in the door, to say, when are you actually going? +It sounds so discourteous +but of course, er three or four days later, you're very sorry you didn't pose that question the minute they er put their foot on er +Yes +your hall carpet. +Erm, there must several categories. +In fact, I know there are, because I've had a look at your most amusing, and relevant article. +There are certain categories that these guests fall into, aren't there? +Yes, erm, the, the most archetypal one is, is the miser of course, who, who turns up with a stale box of chocolates and an ingratiating smile, and proceeds to eat you out of house and home, and then when you're at the supermarket, disappears mysteriously at the checkout, and returns when you've paid with a, a bumper bag a crisps that he keeps in his bedroom when, in case he gets peckish at night. +You know, he may take you for a meal after he's stayed a, a fortnight, and it'll, he might lose his wallet, or, take you to the sausage and chips place round the corner, so he, he's a nightmare. +And then there's the, the over-amorous couple who er, +it's always nice to know your friends are in love, but erm, +Yes. +it's a little bit disconcerting when they forget you're there, and erm +Especially if you've got thin walls. +Yes, so you have to, if, you know, with your weekends, where you know there's a lot of banging of spoons, animated chat, to, to cover up what is so audibly going on upstairs. +I can well remember, I can well remember when our children, when our children were quite young, and er we had such a couple staying with us. +And er, without putting too fine a point on it, er there, there were quite a few moans coming from the bedroom, from the lady, and er, my son said, er, er, I don't think she's very well daddy. +I think she's, she's ill, don't you think you should go in and see what's happening, I said, no, I, I don't think so, I think, I think her husband will take care of that. +Anyway, the over-amorous couple, yes, they're a bit of an embarrassment, aren't they? +Anybody else? +Well erm, children, people with children who don't know how to behave, or, or at least use your house as a sort of running ground, erm, not living in London, er, er, I have lots of guests that come from London, sort of using it as, as much as one would exercise dogs, and, and let their children r run,like round the house, and then er, I'm sort of saying things like, oh you're, you're very, very sensible not to have decorated until after your son's older. +You know, so that, that's a bit of a nightmare and they erm, sort of never tell their children off, so you know, you're s some ghastly little child can be floating your CDs in the bath +Yes. +or scrawling on your tiles +We're all laughing, but, I mean, it, it, it's absolutely er, enraging, isn't it? +If it happens to you, yeah. +Oh, absolutely +And the c couple that, that never, never stop arguing. +They, they probably come in a foul mood, and er, they, they keep up that er bickering over the whole of their stay. +That's right, they've probably had a row half way there or something, and it just carries on, you know. +Yes. +And then they try and enlist your support. +They get you in individually, and sort of reveal embarrassing personal stories, and there's, I mean it just becomes a battleground, your house for, for the weekend. +Madeline, is there anything that can be done? +I think you have to sort of, lay your ground rules, I mean state your case, quite early on and it, I mean, you know, if, if you're not good first thing in the morning, you know, you could tell someone you need three cups of coffee before you're safe to approach or if erm, there's a lazy slob who sort of lies on the sofa all day, you could throw the dishcloth at him, or erm, and also, I mean if it, if there are sort of badly behaved pets and, and children, erm, you know, just, just don't invite them, and if that means your guest list is, is somewhat shorter then all to the good. +I mean you could always go away on holiday, if you'd like. +I mean that's, at this time of year, when it's coming to the time when people coming round with bargain barrels of biscuits +It is difficult, isn't it, not only at Christmas, and, and we suffer from this, probably you do as well, friends from London. +Er, we originally, my wife and I, come from Scotland, and when you get people ringing up from er Scotland saying, well we're just passing through en route to Paris, or Amsterdam, or somewhere, can we stay with you for a couple of days, it's very difficult not to say, er, well, I'm busy isn't it really, and you, you've got to accept them really? +Yes. +You have to, because, how can you be busy for that entire period of time? +It's too hard to think on, you know, on the hop, you know, it's not a, it's impossible. +They have to, they have to come. +Yes, yeah. +Well, Madeline, thank you very much indeed. +There's a lot in this er, article. +Thanks +It's very amusing, and you've explained it amusingly to us, but er, there's a lot of truth, I think in er, what you say and er how can we, er make the best of these unwelcome guests who insist on turning up at the most inopportune times, when we're trying to enjoy ourselves. +Anyway, I'm sure you'll have horror stories, of guests who've invited themselves. +Guests whom you've had to invite, although you really dread it. +Er, perhaps, er, something like that is gonna happen to you in a fortnight's time, this Christmas. +I'm sure that over the years, you'll have er, gone through some of the experiences that Madeline and I have been talking about over the last five minutes. +I'd love to hear your horror stories please, with guests in your home. +Not necessarily at Christmas, any time really. +is the number. +Five, no it's not, quarter to seven is the time. +And, er after the break, it'll be Anne from Hither Green, getting us off on our section of phone calls. +Most people, I think know by now, certainly regular listeners will know, that at the end of next month, the end of January, this programme, Douglas Cameron's Breakfast Call, will be coming to you live, from Sydney, Australia, to mark Australia Day. +And we're looking for two couples, four people, two couples, to travel with us, and to find out er, how you will be able to travel, and what you have to do when you get there, stay tuned for the Dougie Down Under Competition, thanks to QUANTAS, Australia's national airline. +I can tell you it's all expenses paid, it's a fabulous trip, and er, we'll tell you how perhaps, you can be on that plane to Sydney with us, later in the programme. +Anne from Hither Green. +Good morning Anne. +Good morning Douglas, nice to speak to you again. +Thank you. +Erm, you brought back memories you know, when you were talking about unwanted Christmas guests. +Yes. +When we were children, about two days before Christmas, my mother used to face us all defiantly, and say your Aunty May's coming for Christmas, and we all used to scream no, no, not Aunty May please. +Yes, she has nowhere to go, she was like a damp sponge. +Yes. +She used to enter the house, squelching misery behind her +Oh dear! +face us all, and the whole Christmas used to be, we used to tease my brother cos he was the young one, you know, and she'd say, no, no, don't tease the little , oh, no don't say that, and the whole of Christmas, was Aunty May sitting on a sofa, being fed brown ale in never ending glasses, not adding one single thing to the whole of Christmas at all. +was not a word she knew. +Did she come and stay with your family every Christmas? +Yes, and every week she'd appear just like the weather. +Oh, she was, she was fairly local was she? +Yes, and in the end it taught me tolerance and love, because I really learned to love her. +I loved her, even though she was miserable, because she was kind, +Yes. +underneath that exterior, and it made me realize, that you know, you don't have to like your relatives, I'm afraid, you have to put up with them, and love them. +That's right, you can pick your friends, but you can never pick your relatives unfortunately. +Anne, what a lovely story, although it wasn't very lovely, was it, when Aunty May came round for Christmas, and inflicted herself upon the whole family, with her own particular brand of misery? +But, er, I wonder how many Aunty Mays there are coming to your house this Christmas? +Peggy of Surbiton, good morning. +Morning, Douglas. +I've got a very funny story. +Erm, a few, a very few years ago, I met a, a daughter of a friend on, on a bus, er going into London. +I hadn't seen this, this, I call a child, which she was,excuse me, for about erm, twenty five years. +Anyhow, she's living on her own in London, she's not married, so my husband said, oh ask her over, perhaps she'd like to come for Christmas. +So we go up and pick her up in Kensington, bring her back, she unpacks her bag and plonks herself down, she eats everything that's put in front of her, and second helpings, +you can laugh, she never lifted a fork or a plate off the table. +No. +We waited on her hand and foot +Yes +and do you know, she had the most enormous Christmas er lunch, about six o'clock she said, could I have a bowl of soup? +Oh no. +Yes, and Boxing night, she came up with the, er, the same e enormous breakfast, enormous lunch, do you think I might have two lightly boiled eggs wi with er soldiers? +Oh, lovely +Yes, forty five years of age. +We packed her off the, the following day. +How did you manage it? +Well, my husband just, just, just said that we were going out, we got to go out, and we couldn't, that was it. +Oh. +So he took her back, to make certain she kn she was there +Yes. +but, er, it never st we waited on hand, she never even made her bed +Yes, well this is, this is one of the er, categories that we've been talking about. +I think she would fall into the lazy slob category, Peggy? +I called her a slut. +Well yes, er +Bit, bit, bit more vicious, because, I think it's dreadful. +We waited on her +Some people are like that, Peggy, some people are like that. +They expect to be waited on hand and foot, they've got no consideration for others. +Oh, yes, there's a lot of them about you know. +Terry from Camberwell, good morning Terry. +Morning, Douglas. +Er, you know, Ken, Kenneth Clarke is absolutely right to er protest about the hundred billion for a job creation scheme in Europe. +He knows that most of that money will come from just three member states, Britain, France and Germany. +All the others will get a handout from any funds set up for whatever reason, Douglas. +Mhm. +Each British tax payer at the moment, is paying about eight pounds a week for the E E C, and most of those tacp tax payers were dragged by the hair, screaming into Europe, erm, I don't think there's any doubt about that. +This government is actually cutting back on everything here just so that the French farmers and the mafia can live in the manner to which they've become accustomed, Douglas. +Terry, thank you very much indeed. +Er, we're getting quite a few calls on that subject now, John from Erith, good morning to you John. +Morning, Douglas, I think that's totally unjustified, myself, yes, I, I think +You do? +Aha, right what is your view of things? +Well, erm, we were worrying about erm, the government being weak in representation in Europe over the two pin plugs, +Yes we were, +well you can guarantee they're gonna fight tooth and nail over this job creation scheme, to stop it. +Mhm. +Why do they do it, Douglas? +When it's really important, biggest evil in this country, is the unemployment. +About five million, million unemployed, when you take the true figures into account. +Well, do you think it's as high as that? +I do, yeah, personally, yeah, well, you know it's a lot higher than it actually is with the erm, anomalies +Yes, yes. +that are em, accidentally cut off the erm, figures, +Yes. +by this government, but er, this is so important to them, it's gonna actually cost them some money, this government, er, they don't invest in anything that's important, it's the biggest drain on us erm, budget deficit. +Or it's the biggest cause of the budget deficit erm, in this country, is unemployment and social security etcetera, and we get a, a brilliant plan for erm, job creation, and what do they do? +Black it. +Well, indeed, that is what they're gonna do. +John, thank you very much indeed, two contrasting views there. +And indeed, at the summit today in Brussels, John Major is going to fight plans by the European Commission for a one hundred billion pound job creation programme across the Community. +As I say, contrasting views on that story, and er if you'd like to give me a ring with your view, then it's very, very welcome. +We'll take calls on that and indeed any other subject in the news after the seven o'clock news. +It's now six minutes to seven. +The time now, on the Breakfast Call, with me Douglas Cameron, is three minutes to seven. +Let's move on to the birthdays and the anniversaries. +We'll do today, tomorrow, and Sunday. +Those are the birthdays and anniversaries. +If you'd a dedication mentioned on the day, and it's er, very important isn't it really? +If you er, send one in, to get it mentioned on the day, well we certainly do our best, er, sometimes, er, the er, anniversaries and the birthdays, not very often, are crowded out by er, any news stories that we may have to bring you, became first and foremost this is a news programme, er reflecting the stories of the day, but generally speaking we manage to get a full list of your dedications in. +Can you let us have a birthday or an anniversary message in writing please, a week before the actual date, don't forget to tell us who it's for, who it's from, and the date. +Commonsense you may think, but it's amazing how many people leave out one or more of those essential details. +So we'll do our best to get your dedication in on the day, if you will do the rest. +The seven o'clock news coming now, right here. +Well, that by now familiar music will tell you that at the end of January, Douglas Cameron's Breakfast Call will be broadcasting live from Sydney, and in the next few minutes, I'll be telling you how you can join us down under, for the Dougie Down Under Competition, stay tuned for that, thanks to QUANTAS, Australia's national airline. +The time now is nine and a half minutes past seven. +I want to concentrate, er for the next five minutes or so, on one of the main stories of the morning. +As you may have heard in the seven o'clock news, three British hostages are now on their way home from Iraq, after being freed from jail in Baghdad. +The release of Paul , Michael , and Simon , follows the mercy mission by former prime minister, Sir Edward Heath. +On the line to me now, is our diplomatic correspondent, David Spannier. +David, a very good morning to you. +Good morning, Douglas. +Why at this point in time, has Saddam Hussein decided to release these three men? +Let's say first of all that Ted has done jolly well in getting them out, and everyone deserves er, er you know, he deserves a tremendous vote of thanks from everyone. +But Saddam's motives are not at all altruistic, as er, everyone, everyone can guess. +It's simply that he wants to create a better atmosphere, and show that after all he's a reasonable man, and we shouldn't be too hard on him in these days. +And he gets a lot of publicity out of this by er, being photographed with Ted Heath, by announcing that he's showing clemency to people who are convicted by the Iraqi courts, and that really people shouldn't hold too much against him. +Well, he's certainly made a lot of it, didn't he? +Milked the occasion for all it was worth. +I would have thought, that after Sir Edward's meeting, or Ted, I kno I don't like to call him Ted, I know you know him intimately, David, so you can call him Ted, I'll call him Sir Edward, but after Sir Edward's meeting with Tariq Aziz, surely that was enough, wasn't it? +But Saddam had to just play the whole game, and er, he must have got a lot of propaganda out of this, mustn't he? +The, the old handshake, with er, Sir Edward? +Well, he does, and he doesn't, Douglas. +I mean, if we take this as a game, as you rightly describe it, he only takes these people from th in the first place, to have hostages that he can use as bargaining chips later. +I mean, these three men, may or may not have strayed across the border, but they certainly did nothing wrong, +Erm +and they're just jailed for long periods of time, because he wants to assert, Saddam wants to assert, er his authority and show how erm, tough he is. +But really these people, and there're about thirty other nationalities, by the way, being held, he just wants to show how tough he is, and it's useful in the future, as now, when he wants to make a gesture. +The publicity is fairly short-lived, of course it has tremendous effect on the British media, and we're all very, very happy for the families of these people +Yes. +but it doesn't actually change British policy, or alter the fact that sanctions are going to be maintained against Saddam. +But for his part, er, it looks good, er he gets lots of promotion in the erm, Iraqi press, which he controls anyway, and Iraqi television, and he comes across as a kind of, er, father of the people, who can on one hand show great severity with executions and so forth, on the other hand, dispense er justice and human feelings, and show that he really loves people in general . +But David, he's not proving a very good father is he, because er, I'm sure many, many people will have seen pictures on television on Wednesday night, of how these sanctions are really hurting the Iraqi people. +The ordinary people in the street. +Yes, and that is Saddam's dilemma, I mean,yo the point about him is this, one mustn't think of him as being a rational er politician who does sensible things, for sensible reasons. +That is the wrong way to look at Saddam. +He's a very, very emotional, unstable dictator, who's just been determined somehow to exploit his position geographically, in the Middle East, to try and emerge as a sort of mini superpower, and to that end, he's done a lot of terrible things, of which the invasion of Kuwait was really only one. +But in the course of that, he's so angered the international community that sanctions as we know, economic sanctions have been levelled against Iraq, and they have bit, and they have hurt the Iraqi people, but in general, Saddam is not responsive to that kind of pressure. +After all, even if his people as a whole are suffering privations and losses, and can't buy all the things they want, it doesn't affect him and his ruling clique. +He has the perfectly healthy, happy life. +Have you seen pictures of him? +Yes. +See how sleek he looks, and how dark and well and such,yes, he does, he does +He looks very healthy, doesn't he, very, very fit? +Erm +er, but there is a point at which, you know, he's always trying to evade sanctions, and usually, and it's a genuine case, he asks that er, essential supplies, like medicines and such, should be allowed through, and er, in the general, the United Nations have responded by saying, Okay, we'll give you that, but you've still got to observe the rules of the international law, which I'm afraid, again and again, he flouts. +So, there's no real sign on his part, of a change of heart. +No, I mean, there's nothing to stop him arresting more British people, or er, any nationality, come to that, and saying well, they did stray into our territory, I'm sorry about this, but er, we can't have that sort of thing, you'll have to er, come and see if I want to release them in a few months. +Nothing to stop him er, doing the whole all over again, is there? +Well, he's doing it now, as I say, there're about thirty other nationalities held in Iraqi prisons. +But this isn't the worst of Saddam, I mean, this is er, a human tragedy for all the families involved and it concerns individual lives, and for that we're always very upset. +But er, he does much, much worse things to his own people, and in particular, the people in the south, called the Marsh Arabs, or, or the Shea Arabs. +He's continually er, persecuting them, and there's many, many indications that he uses er, poisoned gas, or chemical weapons, and er lays waste their whole villages, and he's seeking to do this because he wants to dominate his own country, and not allow any minorities a chance to look after themselves, and the same applies of course to the Kurds in the north, whom we have a direct responsibility, the international community, to protect. +Now this action against whole groups of people is so awful Douglas +Erm +that I fear, that sooner or later, we'll probably have to go to war with Saddam again +You, you, do you really feel that? +I do feel it. +I'll tell you why. +I mean, there are many, many cases of injustice around the world and, the West, the British government, can't be responsible for all of them, but there's, there's one particular case of Iraq, where we've already gone to war, to, in the cause of democracy and freedom, and I don't believe that when Saddam offends again as he does day by day, we can turn a blind eye. +We can turn a blind eye to some of it, but the point is always reached when he goes too far, and intervention is required, usually only in the form of American attacks by aircraft on his offences in the em, areas where he's not supposed to penetrate. +Yes, would it be a possibility, perhaps, that Sir Edward Heath, might try to get the other European hostages out? +His success rate with er, British hostages is outstanding isn't it? +Well Ted is a very, er, experienced operator. +He's always had his heart in, in diplomacy and he's got the kind of authority you need for this. +That is, he's an ex-prime minister, who can face er, Saddam across the table, you know, on equal terms. +At the same time he has no political authority, er, representing as it were the British government, he's just an individual of stature, and he's got the time and the energy to do it. +I don't think that he could look after other countries, although the same sort of precedent could no doubt apply for example, the former French prime minister, there's probably quite a few of them around, could be found to go to +Yes +Iraq, and do the same kind of negotiation. +The danger is that er, Saddam exploits this er, more and more, and seeks to try and get sanctions overturned. +Well, that won't happen. +But I think that from, er, Sir Edward's point of view, he has done jolly well, and er, the families have already expressed their great gratitude to him. +Well if I may, er, coin one of your phrases, well done Ted. +Thank you David, very much indeed. +David Spannier, our diplomatic correspondent, giving us an expert's eye view of the whys and wherefores of the release of the three British hostages, who happily will be home very, very shortly. +Seventeen minutes past seven. +I thought for a minute, he said down to Mr Blobby didn't you? +Well, he keeps calling me Mr Robbie, because, for some reason, he thinks I resemble this silly character. +Yes I can't understand why. +You are, you are, perhaps you are, you, you're a little, two or three pounds over your fighting weight for a man of your height, but still, +I know, I should be eight foot six, but, I'm working on it +We had enough of Blobby yesterday, without any mention of him on the programme again. +Right, it's twenty minutes past seven. +We can't afford modern technology now, we've got one of these old wind-up gramophones. +Right, nevertheless, not withstanding, etcetera. +In five minutes, it'll be the Dougie Down Under competition, thanks to QUANTAS, Australia's national airline. +I'm sure most people know by know, that er this show will be coming to you live from Sydney, Australia, for a whole week to mark Australia Day at the end of January, and er the interesting thing from your point of view, is that we are looking for two couples, can be a husband and wife, er mother and daughter, father and son, any combination really, just a couple of friends. +We're looking for two couples to come to Australia with us and to act as roving reporters. +What you do, is er, travel around the country, to selected spots, phone into me, on the programme live, and tell me what you've been doing, what you've been seeing. +All expenses paid, I need hardly add, and of course, this will mean that should you er, get through to the final, you will need to do an audition, live on air, in the day or two before Christmas. +More of that later, you must also have a valid passport, and you must be free to travel in the last two weeks of January. +Okay. +So in five minutes, I'll ask you a question, and that could result in you're going next month with Dougie Down Under, thanks to QUANTAS, Australia's national airline. +Seven twenty two. +Leslie of Finsbury. +Good morning Leslie. +Er, Good morning, Douglas. +Em, much earlier you was on about this erm, erm, television licences, er, be it,an another extra twenty pound being added to any, another set over the top of what you've got. +Yes I just want to explain very quickly for people who don't know what we're talking about, Leslie, because a lot of people join us by the minute, er, MPs on the Commons' Heritage Committee, have said, they think it's a very good idea, that if you have more than one telly, you should pay twenty pounds for the second one, and who knows, twenty pounds for the third, and twenty pounds extra for the fourth. +What do you feel? +Well, this is what I'm, what I'm on about, this proposal. +I, I assume it's just a proposal at the moment? +But,i is it +Yes, it is +gonna a be across the board? +Or er, just affecting households or is there a special dispensation for hotels, hospitals, commercials, er, commercial establishments, Crown property, Buckingham Palace, and any of the Royal homes, go right through, you can go right through the card? +Well, I think the idea is, that certainly large hotels could afford to pay a bigger collective bill than they're paying at the moment. +And er, er a lot of people I think, would agree with that. +Wouldn't you? +Well, they appear to have, er, er I mean they have televisions in every room, and, and, and they, and they, and they put their prices up accordingly, er en suite, and all this business, but er with the television, +Erm +I mean, they're, they're, actually, they're creaming it off at the moment. +Yeah, I mean, have you got more than one telly? +Sorry? +Have you got more than one? +No, I live on my own, I got, I've got one little television in my own sort of bedsitter. +So, er, would you think it's a good idea maybe to er, to, to charge people twenty pounds extra for each telly? +Well, er, it's all according to whether they can afford it in the first instance, secondly, is it gonna be across the board? +Yes. +I mean, you can't just hammer households, and leave them, I mean, even, even, even like er ju ju the judiciary, the courts, they've all got televisions in their pl I mean surely, and that's Crown property, by the way. +I understand that they don't pay any television licences at all. +Okay Leslie, thank you, a lot of calls coming through on this one. +Inge, from Wembley. +Good morning Inge. +Morning, Dougie. +Er, first of all, good luck for next week +Oh, thank you. +and er, do you know, I've got so many things to say, erm, first of all to do with er, erm, guests at Christmas. +You know, one must remember there are so many lonely people, and Christmas is the worst time of the year. +Yes. +The other thing is television licence. +Now, I must say that I see there is a point of charging for every television set, erm, I don't have any er, er objection to that, but one rider, that senior citizens should be helped. +Yes, I think this is probably the idea behind the thinking, really. +That those who are not really able to pay, who are genuinely hit very hard by the current eighty three pounds, isn't it for a colour television licence, I think? +Er, they would be helped, I think, by this and er, I think if that were to be the case, then I'd be wholeheartedly behind it. +Yes, I think that, I think that would be fair, but er for instance, hotels, establishments, they should of course , pay much more. +Inge, thank you very much indeed. +A lot of calls coming through on this. +We'll take as many as we can er, during the programme. +It's now seven twenty six. +Well here go, with the Dougie Down Under competition, thanks to QUANTAS, Australia's national airline. +Two couples must win the all expenses paid trip to Australia with me, when the Breakfast Call comes live from Sydney, at the end of January. +Now, we've had four questions already this week, if you missed any of them, we will be repeating them next week, so you won't miss out. +But now, here's the final question + +Does anybody else want a biscuit? +Yes please. +might as well. +Anyway can we after, they, they wanted a few predictions. +What was the next thing they also want? +They want a spread of expenditure for the contract works So what we agreed with them is that we will forthwith start sending them client reports and I've asked them if they will report back to us whether the client reports are in the form they want them. +Because we feel that the client repor Some within the management team feel that the client reports, as we are proposing to issue them are heavy. +In other words there's too much information in them. +So they've agreed to cooperate with us in er putting together a client report or, or, or, or devising client reports which have a minimum of information but the information that they require. +Not the information that we think they require. +An and I'd like that team briefing as well. +Cos it's quite disappointing that we actually er agreed that we'd start issuing client reports about two months, and as far as I'm aware nobody started issuing them. +Leeds North Wes +gonna have to wait for the erm +No. +That's done. +That's all done? +A a apart from Chris and Bill, I've sat down with all the M S fours an and been through the changes to the appointment contract, and how they now erm form the basis of the er interim client report. +Th the, the, the interim client report is ready I mean you could use it today. +Erm if that's what people . +Er if you like when I go through it with Chris and Bill, I'll you know invite you in and we'll we'll, we'll, we'll . +you say. +Well so in other words you haven't done the bridge office? +That's right. +Yeah. +Because they weren't available when +Yeah. +when I did everybody else and erm I, I +Oh yeah. +I'd like to be in on that. +Yeah. +Er but but the report, er the database has now been rationalized in accordance with the paper I've put to you. +Yeah. +The appointment contracts and variations have been changed in accordance with the paper I've put to you. +The sort of Toytown Railway example is now up and running. +The interim client report which I showed as, again as an example which I provided you a copy with, is now available. +So effectively you've had that information all you've actually got to do is to make sure that the text within the general notes of the +Mm. +database is relevant and then on all open projects your clerks can produce these reports for your project coordinators to sign off. +The only problem is that the first time you do it for each project if it's a ne if it's a an old project, then we are going to have to put something in the field which summarizes the total remit for the whole of the group to date. +Er a and that's a one off exercise +I, I think we should let old projects run the, run the course frankly. +Well you can't do that with bridge projects Jim. +Y you can in +Well no. +No. +your office but you can't do it +We'll put in large ones but I mean I've got a you know +No. +No. +No. +No. +a hundred projects that will disappear in three months. +That's right. +A a and we just let those disappear and evaporate. +Yeah. +Yes. +I, I'm not for a minute suggesting that er th that for the small projects that we do that. +But most of Roger's projects +w would need tha that remit. +A and really the remit is nothing other than something like undertake erm er survey work, design, detailed drawings or the reconstruction or repairs to blah blah blah blah including pre-imposed contract work. +End of story. +Unless we vary and it i i i we just need to put that in. +A and I can get er Ken and my clerks to ferret through the old contracts, and all the variations that we've had to date, and come up with a suggested erm latest remit for the project coordinator to approve. +If that's what it wants. +I mean er that's a service I'm quite happy to offer. +Erm so really you tell me which jobs you're gonna send reports out on,a and erm that you would like that particular field sorting out, and I will get Ken and Amanda and Kerry to er t to get something in there, so that when you pull it off erm you're happy with it or we can then edit it. +It then g sets the thing right for the next variation as well, cos you use that variation er use that er latest remit within the subsequent variations to the appointment contract. +I've just looked through my notes o of the meeting. +They wanted from us an assurance that we would continue to provide the level of service that we have done in the past. +Because they were concerned about rumours they'd heard of staff shortages within the C E D G. +Perhaps we should be a bit more careful about whingeing about losing staff to Regional Railways and +other people. +Er a and just get on and bite the bullet and do something about it. +And get on and, that's right. +And get work done. +But they're pinching them. +ridiculous it's their department that's +taking them all . +Yes. +But if we don't +But Terry they're the client +There's a fact of life isn't it? +the client. +Well you didn't have to, yeah. +But we didn't have to, what I mean the point is that we didn't have to tell, have to tell them, they already knew. +They knew that Ian had taken er or was about to take some and they knew that er +Yeah. +But you've got, you haven't got a problem with +that old Brian 's gone. +but I, I, as I understand it you haven't got a problem with workload. +In fac I, from what I understand is that you've got a problem with shortage of workload. +Yeah. +Well I can't stop their perception of the fact that the staff that are disappearing out of the office come from the P T section. +Yeah. +But . +You can't stop it but you can influence it. +I mean if, if our, if, if we're going around whingeing that a +But we're not. +shortage of staff, but that was their perception Terry. +Their perception was that we, we had a desperate shortage of staff +Yeah. +and we weren't gonna provide them with the level of service that +They got the +They got the feeling that we were on the ropes and I, I mean if +even if we are we should we should be managing that internally. +No. +No. +What I,w w what we've done is we've assured them that we will provide the level of service that they've had previously and if need be +we will buy staff in, +Yeah. +agency staff or whatever, +Yeah. +to continue to provide them with that service. +Yeah. +Okay? +Yeah. +Aye actually you do need +That's an assurance that we've given them. +Yes. +A actually that rumour though hasn't come from us so the comment about whingeing was wrong. +I'm not bothered about where it comes from. +No. +But it wasn't but you see it's the fact that Ian 's gone. +R Bob 's gone. +Brian 's gone. +Robert 's gone. +All within the past about eighteen months and they were all from P T fro from Regional Railways P T type jobs. +Tha that's what's happened. +Fine. +They've picked up their own vibes. +Don't take it negatively. +Mm. +The, the, the positive message is that +Yeah. +we've given them assurance that we will provide the level of service +. +Good. +and we need to do it. +Mm. +The second thing is that erm with regard to future pro projects, Regional Railways have decreed, that we will only get work through competitive tender. +No. +Regional Railways North East Investment have decreed that we will only get work +Yeah. +on competitive tender. +Okay. +I understood it was Regional Railways +It was those +Headquarters who'd decreed that we would only get work by +Yeah. +I can't see +It's it's +I +I +Right. +Okay. +I I I'll I'll check that +Can you? +with Richard then and see +Yeah. +whether or not we're gonna be in the same situation on erm +on maintenance jobs. +Yeah. +I see this as a positive element because here for once the client's gonna have to sit down and produce a specification +Put down remit. +and a remit. +Right. +I don't think they've realized +And then we will go into bat on a fixed price and we'll charge him that, whatever. +And if there's a variation order we will issue a variation order +And we will become +variation. +we will become more professional +Correct. +on those jobs. +And it will cost him more money administrating. +Er that +doesn't matter i it, it, it, it will +be a good exercise for us t to take advantage over this er +I've warned them .? +Yeah. +I I, what I would say cos we will be competing against Birmingham and Glasgow. +Right? +We retain the work that we've already got with them. +Okay? +And th then we've got a lot of work at the moment which we'll retain. +The future projects we're gonna have to obtain competitively. +So we're te we're team briefing that as well? +Yes. +Yes. +Are we team briefing it North East, or the whole of Regional Railways? +Let's say that we have been, we've been +Stick with North East +advised by the New Works Manager of Regional Railways North East that work from him +Mm. +Will be +w will be o only obtained via competitive +We'll have to compete for . +tender. +Now the relevant point about briefing this is a you've mentioned Glasgow and Birmingham that I already knew about, that we're tendering against. +But there is was some intimation that it would go externally as well. +Right . +Right. +I, I can't comment on that Terry that is not something +Well +that Keith's +right. +Okay. +But he certainly didn't suggest that. +No. +A a a and that's gonna cause him all sorts of admin type er +Specification problems. +Yes. +well specification and training I mean what's he gonna do about getting people +P P T S +on the track? +That, that's not my understanding +I don't think that's +at the moment. +No. +Okay. +Now I think as a management team we need to think about what our strategy, our tactics are gonna be with regard to this. +Erm because if we look at our experiences with Crossrail, if you d w what do we do? +Do we go in low? +No. +And then, and then, then try and get money on the +If I was tender if, if +go in? +But . +No. +But if, if our fee bids, that have been going in so far, are there or thereabouts and having monitored reports for quite a while, tendencies and yes some are under and some are a bit over but in general they're not th they're not that far out. +Then we've gotta, we've gotta continue to tender on that same footing. +We can't buy every job. +But a w a word +a word of er caution +here is it's, it's er, er +a bad scene that it's only gonna be on certain jobs. +If I can just quote our experience er on this, erm +we, I was able to compare our costs for design at Hounslow just er in the, just er south of Rug Rugby. +Mhm. +Birmingham quoted six thousand. +We actually did the job for just under five. +Er that wasn't er on competition though,th that was er an Intercity job which Birmingham said they could do it for that figure. +Mm. +Where we've been doing comparable work on er the Kings Cross Project, we wer we told by the old project team that we were very much cheaper than Birmingham. +And better but that was another story. +When we actually went to competitive tender, which was for a route improvement down near Leicester, they undercut us. +The w we put in what we thought was a completely fair er, er quotation for what we were doing. +Bearing in mind we have the more difficult travelling but they undercut us. +And my suspicion is they put in a selectively low bid on that particular job. +Erm we also lost out on permanent way standard drawings against the Glasgow office who were desperate for work. +Mm. +They put in th er a cheap price. +They got the entire work. +They ran out of money, and they've had to be supplemented since to get the job finished. +S so they were +That's why it's precisely +they were +. +Thank you for that . +But on that Leic th th the Leicester job that you l erm +The line? +Yeah. +You'd adopted the same philosophy of pricing that. +You ha because you suddenly realized you were +price sensibly. +in competitive tender you didn't change your philosophy? +Yeah. +I think you've got to price sensibly. +I, I, I did not. +Er, er w we costed out the +job how we were going to do it our normal procedure. +Yeah. +Yeah. +Mm. +The only thing I didn't have control of w were the rates we're charging. +I mean +Mm. +purely departmentally I +Mm. +could have t have knocked about twenty percent off my rates and still got them even. +Which incidentally would have been enough to get the job. +Yeah. +Er +Yeah. +but erm beware. +It it's a bad scene when it's i if, if it's universal, if they, if they're put in bids eventually they'll bankrupt themselves. +But when it's selective +and they've got a whole market to go +Mm. +back on, erm +They're in a . +my experience is they, they, they put in artificially low bids. +Be because they're owned by Regional Railways and Re i if they lose money Regional Railways will . +But why aren't Intercity asking Birmingham to tender against us for Intercity jobs? +Don't even think about it. +L let, let it +Yeah. +We don't want to work hard. +th that I've thought about very seriously but, but Terry, think about this. +What proportion of their work is Intercity? +Compared with what proportion of our work is Regional Railways? +Tt I wouldn't know. +Anyway that looks like the only tribute problem for this financial year isn't it? +Because next financial +Mm. +year if we're still within B R we certainly won't +be part of erm +Intercity? +Intercity or Regional Railways. +That's right. +So Birmingham won't be part of Regional Railways. +I mean we'll be back to the scenario that we were fighting for three years ago. +That's right. +Mm. +So that we can perhaps get +Well perhaps +some method of +Mm. +cooperation within +Mm. +the other . +Aye. +Yeah. +I +The last thing we want to do is to start infighting on the S A Us +Fighting them on the . +because +Mm. +we'll +Ee +just do what the, what the industry outside has done and spiral down into producing lower and lower quality of services +Yeah. +Yeah. +Hear hear. +and not +Yeah. +serving anybody. +Well I've not +We did make we did make this point to Keith actually very very clearly, +Yeah. +that we w that we are concerned that what will happen is that everybody will start putting silly low +prices in and t a and one of two things will happen. +Either th the quality of service will go down, or he will have all the hassle of er not knowing, not knowing what his design +Sorting out what he shouldn't be sorting out +costs are gonna be. +Well I just thi +Because he'll be getting clobbered with claims all the time. +Yeah. +Yeah. +So they're difficult times. +I think our strategy should be that we pare our prices down, to the absolute minimum that we think we can do the work for, take a little bit more off that and hope to get some money back on variations. +Because if you don't get a job you don't even have the chance of doing the work. +Mm. +I don't, mm I I'm not too happy with that +Yeah. +Well +philosophy +well +Well I'm not happy with it +th th that +but I, I just think it's a matter of +I'll, I'll go along with that Rog er Hugh, provided that we +Forty five percent of our work is taking a bit off when we don't money gonna make any +money. +Perhaps i i it'll encourage us to look for a shorter route through to the, the, the solution. +But th the problem is all the shortcuts are g gonna reduce the quality of service we give to the client. +Like at the moment if there's anything goes wrong with possessions, it really ought to be the project manager sorting it out. +Yes. +Exactly. +Quite. +But we don't do that. +We sort that out for him. +Well +Well +perhaps we shouldn't +it shouldn't +Yeah. +Yeah but that +perhaps, perhaps that'll fall +Right. +to +Right. +But, but you see the point I'm getting at? +It's the same with Lookouts as well. +If there's a problem with Lookouts we do it and we +for him we also +Mm. +look after all his safety issues. +The, the problem is if it it's alright to out-price and then reducing your service, but that soon switches the client off. +Yes it does. +I'll go along +But Terry one +A and that's just as dangerous +once he's +as overpricing it. +once he starts to +Isn't it? +If he starts getting, go on. +once he starts to specify in a contract document, what we are pricing for, then we've got an immediate, okay, we've done this for you and this is +Yeah. +we've done this on a +time rate and it's, it's extra. +But the, the vibes are bad. +But please pay us. +The vibes are bad +No because +it would be +because a all consultants are gonna do that. +The vibes are bad. +. +Who sorted out the problems with all the possessions and supervision for Leeds North West? +Yeah. +Me and Roger. +Not the bloody project manager. +Terry the vibes are wrong +all the way round. +Yeah. +Whatever we do it is +a risky situation. +Well I +Yeah. +Yeah. +Let us +I'm happy to pare the job down Hugh but I'm not happy +to start taking money off. +No. +There's a big difference between us and consultants isn't there? +Because if you +Yeah. +Yeah. +were outside, and you were running jobs really tight, flexitime +Yeah. +would go out of the window, staff would be working what hours, whatever hours were necessary to +get it inside +the job. +Yeah. +Not only that staff +be silly expense claims and all this +staff salaries staff salaries wou let's be fair. +Outside +Go out the window. +staff salaries have gone down over the last eighteen months +Too . +I was speaking to a lad who left my office +to go to a consultant. +And he's been there now about three years and they're just surviving, and he's says, I'm earning roughly what I was here but I'm working literally twice the hours. +And he says, and if I don't, I don't have a job. +That's the reality of the situation. +Correct. +And I, I, I think we've, we've +. +He has to get the job done for a price. +We've got to be very careful we're not tying our hands behind our backs. +No. +We can't play that game. +. +Yes we can. +B but Terry let us look at the +Oh yes we can. +other thing. +If, if we don't +We haven't decided that. +if we don't work on the strategy that I've been suggesting +putting it on the table If you don't do that, I can guarantee that Bill , Bill is gonna play silly buggers. +That I am certain of and Bill is gonna put in silly prices. +But it won't do any good though will it? +But it won't do us any good either cos we won't have any work to do. +It depends who gets in first doesn't it? +Really? +What do you mean? +What? +Mm? +What do you mean by get in first? +Well in first +is getting the bloody job. +Well no. +If we have a if we have a +There's no w what are you? +Let's, let's +done in that way to +Yeah. +start with and let him . +But you've already said forty five percent of our business +Is with +is with Regional Railways if we're +I know. +gonna take forty five percent of our business at less than the cost to do the job, that don't make good business sense. +No. +No. +No. +What we're saying is that, that we're gonna have we we're gonna put a bid in +put a bid in at a certain price. +and then we're gonna, we're gonna work down +We're gonna w +to that price. +Or +Or recover it. +Or recover it. +Or recover it. +By identifying gaps in their documentation in the same way as . +But then you get back to what Terry said about,bloody York +you'll really switch off him. +you know. +They look for everything. +Yeah. +Right +Erm +Roger. +Yeah. +you don't get the work. +You don't get the work but then you +But what do you want? +No. +But you +you don't need to work for anything do you? +want the hassle of getting the money? +No. +or do you? +No. +I think that +o o or that I would want the hassle and not get the work. +I think I think what we ought to do is we ought to point out +these problems at a +Oh we've covered that. +We've covered that. +We've pointed that out, to Keith. +It's, I mean what you've gotta be is, is realistic. +Keith's +A and realize that K Keith, it's not Keith's decision. +It's not in Keith's +if Keith had the, the decision to make he would continue working with us. +There's no doubt about it. +It's outside of Keith, I think it's outside of David . +And I believe it's with Richard +Yeah. +Well +. +going to miss us a great opportunity to learn how to do it right +it's a great opportunity. +Yeah. +it is. +It's an opportunity we're gonna have now which in two years time +Yeah. +But, but don't +we will not have +Can we just put it +because . +Absolutely. +put it in perspective though? +But don't knock any money off. +All I say is, if we're gonna pare it down, let's pare it down before we start the job and put in the price it will cost. +Right. +Can I, can I, can I, can I re +Including knocking off photographs if they say they're gonna want photographs. +Right? +Correct. +So they don't get them. +So they don't get them. +Don't the cost +. +No. +You see what this, I'll tell you what this says +the staff costs it's the staff costs you've got to control +Yes. +If the staff can't to +do it at within the cost, outside, +Mm. +then staff simply work for nothing. +It's as simple as that. +They have to work for nothing to get the job done. +Yeah. +Mm. +That's a reality, and I don't see why this office should not consider the fact that they may have to get involved in that. +We may very well +Well +have to do that. +but until he shows national agreements to them you'll never get that agreed will ? +Well some of them +? +are not national agreements. +What, what erm makes you think +they are and you can't +Bill +People work overtime and they get paid for it. +by what he's done so far in . +Full stop. +more payment. +Yeah. +Right. +Bill Bill has +Standard conditions. +Bill has worked very hard to preserve Glasgow's position +Mm. +in terms of, I mean Bill was the one who drafted up the +th the rules of er distribution of work between +Mhm. +organizations. +It was his idea. +He got it written er if you remember the rules of the game are that all Regional Railways work will go to a Regional Railways office and they will decide if it goes out. +If it goes out. +Yeah. +Yeah. +Ditto for Intercity erm intentionally I've played a very low profile game on this. +And if you like ignored those because we had more to lose. +Yeah. +But that's the only reason why. +If I'd been in Bill's position I, or if we'd had been in Bill's position, we'd have done the same as well. +And said, bloody hell. +Glasgow are doing all this Intercity work. +If they were. +We should be doing that. +So erm t they're fighting to survive, we're fighting to survive. +And, and they're not gonna, they're not gonna behave as er real gentlemen Roger. +I can promise you. +They're gon gonna be interested in that +Oh n no. +work. +You can commit suicide as well if you're daft can't you? +Yeah. +Erm +J just to put it in perspective +you know. +erm Hugh said that er it doesn't apply to jobs that we've already got. +And +At the moment we've got ninety five percent of jobs that Keith knows about. +a b we've got That's right +Mm. +Keith doesn't know many jobs that we don't +That's . +know about a and therefore it's only things that start to creep in this year. +So th the chances are we might only be looking +on investment jobs a a at a handful of projects that we might need to start competitively +Mm. +tendering them. +And Jim's point about you know gettin using this as an opportunity to er s +Er spot on. +t to get it, is just right because i i in twelve months time we might have to tender for every job. +And it doesn't matter whether we give him bad vibes. +If that's the marketplace that we're in then we we've got two choices. +Right. +Either w w we start to er +Yeah. +learn the, the, the street credibility that you need to er +We have no option but t to learn it. +We've gotta +to survive o or y you, you +become streetwise and we've gotta become streetwise +Mm. +bloody quickly. +or you move into procurement. +O or something else. +Or you retire. +That's right. +I, I mean +There aren't many other +I if you can't stand the heat, you get out the kitchen. +And if that's what we what it is then we have to do it. +But er I, I don't want get out the kitchen, I want to keep cooking boys . +Y you, you, you're,I I'm, mm. +Yeah. +The problem +is what you're raising a lot more issues here the undertow is unbelievable. +And, and we're gonna finish them at Scarborough aren't we? +They ain't gonna go away. +The undertow is unbelievable +We are. +like +We're talking round it now Hugh. +like you know +Yes. +you can take all the graduates away. +I don't want any +No. +Mm? +Yeah. +Oh yeah. +I don't +If you want if we do what I to do +I'll tell you what +It's the reality of the +It's the reality of the world you don't want any +my office. +You don't want anybody +Right. +who's learning +Roger what's your biggest problem at the moment? +you know. +Staff? +Right. +Mm. +Get rid of the graduates. +What's your problem tomorrow? +Then the year after? +The year after that? +The year after that? +Not necessarily. +No. +Cos +get qualified staff who would actually be able +Yeah. +to produce +I hear what you're saying. +Yeah. +No. +If we're +gonna take serious, serious action +That's the problem +and get to grips with the real world, then th er as well as what Jim said about the fact that we pay staff lieu time, and we pay them overtime, and +Mm. +and we let them, allow them to do flexitime, +Yeah. +we've got to look very seriou seriously about the productivity of the work that's churned out. +And many of our jobs +Yeah. +are churned out poorly and take extra time +Yeah. +because we take on t very junior staff T Os and we have a +Hear hear. +commitment to sending them to college, so we lose one day a week for a start. +Yeah. +Erm we have the graduates who we're training up and they're not very good and drop us in the mire sometimes. +And they've got a vast learning queue. +We don't specialize people who are graduates and say, you work in the works office or the bridge office. +We say well pick up a bit of experience here +and a bit of experience +there. +Yes. +And that costs us money. +problem. +Quite right. +Yeah I mean +I, I was amazed when I wrote to you and suggested that er we didn't need thirteen weeks in bridge assessment perhaps +perhaps less than that. +You came back and said you wanted them to have thirteen weeks. +Thirteen weeks when we're paying their bloody salaries and +they're earning nothing for us and really +Consultant wouldn't bother with that. +a consultant wouldn't send them +Certainly wouldn't. +on an area for +six months and pay their salary. +He wouldn't send them +Yeah and to be fair +It's this trying to have our foot in every camp and trying +We're actually paying we're actually having to pay overtime +Yeah. +Mm. +when they're doing site supervision work on areas . +The problem is we don't know what type of animal we are. +No. +That's the problem +Yeah. +at the moment. +We're a hybrid. +change again in April. +We are. +An absolute . +To be fair if, if we, if we were on our own we, I would agree with you, we would not be doing that. +No. +We couldn't afford to. +No. +We couldn't. +You can undercut jobs providing staff are r a a a you know all pulling hundred and twenty five +percent of the time. +Mm. +But you can't if they're not. +we're digressing again. +You've gotta, you've gotta be hardworking. +Am I, am I not right in saying +That's right. +that all new graduates ? +No. +No. +You're bloody not. +? +All the graduates go on our books. +We get a consideration from the business unit for some of the graduates that they have selected for us. +So you're gonna put other people on the th that have not been brought through +Through. +central selection, we will end up having to +Yeah. +Yeah. +to pay their . +Or we just get credited, you're charging +that, if you've got a, an H Q graduate if you call him that on a job he's still charged that job. +Mm. +Oh yes. +I mean it's just that the +S A U profits go up a bit because you get a credit from er +That's right. +Yeah. +But the job doesn't benef that job doesn't benefit. +B but you know we do a lot of things +No that job doesn't benefit so it, if, if he's +we do a lot of things don't get paid. +Yes. +Still. +You keep sending me comments er things like, will you pass comments on this standard platform design? +Yes. +Got sod all to do with me as a S A U. +Fair comment. +I went yesterday, to tell everybody about access requirements and spent all day +And you get nothing for it. +plus expenses and we get nothing for it. +The only thing you do get and this is what the consultant +We build up expertise. +But +No. +No. +. You make contacts. +Oh yeah. +Yeah. +You make contacts you impress people +That's right. +on, on, on your expertise. +And that's a market +Or not. +Or, or, or not. +Or not. +Yeah.. +The op no but the opportunity is there. +For you +It is. +to impress people. +It is. +Let them know what expertise you have and there's when they have a problem, they come, is that the one by Mr ? +Yeah. +It's lovely. +It's very good. +Mm. +And Roger? +Mm. +You read that. +What it says about training and graduate training and so on. +Yeah. +He doesn't do it. +No. +It does n't. +Th that, that message is entirely opposite from what you would +But you see +Ah! +. +Yeah. +Yeah. +I know but you see +We digress. +We do +Mm. +digress, but I think i i it's important that I, I'm, I'm, I'm beginning to wonder now what our real stance is. +Cos we've gone through a whole sort of full circle about taking a stance that's very aggressive in terms of saying if we i i if we tender for something we're gonna hit the client with V Os and this that and the other. +And yet in the past +Not really. +if I'd had said I wanna, I wanna claim this from client you would have said come on, that's a bad marketing exercise. +Back off. +Yes. +Do it for free. +Now we +can't have both. +You can't have your cake and eat it. +You can't. +You couldn't. +But, but Terry what you've gotta rec +So which are we, which are we going for? +What you've gotta recognize, well you may go for both. +What you've gotta recognize is that the circumstances have changed. +Yeah. +Well I, I'm aware of that. +We +Mm. +we started off m o o o or part of this conversation, Trevor and I said, Keith wants to continue working with us. +Yeah. +How do we make sure of that +Right. +is what we +Our clients, +But +the clients who deal with us, like the way we work. +Yeah. +Yeah. +Right? +But +That is because of the way we've behaved over the last two years. +Yeah. +Now circumstance +cultivated that. +the cir that's right. +Mm. +But, but let's take the, take the +finance bit. +You said w we pare things down to a minimum price. +Yeah. +And then if they come along and change anything we hit, we hit them for the, the extras. +Not in an aggressive way. +Right. +But I'm talking, I +In a professional way. +but when I spoke about safety and getting the money back from the safety training that they now want that they didn't want in the first place you said, no, we should do that +That's right. +in-house. +Well it +Yeah. +seems to me you've got, you, you've got er two different approaches there completely. +Yes. +I have. +One's saying we do it for free and another one's saying it is n't. +A and I +I'm not, not really quite sure what we're trying to a get. +Well +I think we need to d we need to discuss that at Scarborough possibly. +Yeah. +Scarborough's the place for it. +I mean our ob my objective is quite +Yeah. +straightforward and that is to stay in business. +But mine's jus +It's about it's about +mine isn't just that. +Mine's to actually +make some sort of profit. +W we we've drifted now onto +all the issues that we'll +Yeah. +be talking at Scarborough in a non-structured +way without Jane's help. +I, I honestly believe that we should back off and, and get on +Right. +with the . +Back off. +Next thing is safety training for project engineers was covered and we've discussed that previously. +Safety validation of contractors was another item th that they give you a briefing of the meeting +Sorry. +Right. +Beg your pardon. +Right. +Okay? +They raised the question of safety validation of contractors erm but I don't think there's anything that we need to involve ourselves +in that. +We talked about +terms and conditions of engagement and as I said previously they are looking for us to provide them with spreads of expenditure of fees and, and Trevor's looking into that. +Just before you go over there was one point on the safety of contractors. +Regional Railways have requested that they see copies of our contractors' performance reports. +Ones we do internally. +Right. +Perhaps we should send them to the client on all +Yeah. +er all clients on all jobs. +If we do them. +Yeah. +Perhaps the clients should vet them himself. +I don't see how he can. +Again CONDAM regulations once again here. +I know I keep harking on it but the CON +What is this condom? +the CONDAM regulations actually say the client must ensure that he employs a safety conscious contractor. +A a a and he can delegate that +responsibility t to us. +Gentlemen what are we? +What are we in business for? +We're in business to +Provide the client +provide these people with a service. +Yeah. +Yeah. +That's what I see I mean +He's doing that by employing us. +all the . +If the better service and more comprehensive service we can provide,th the better chance we have of getting repeat orders. +Okay? +But the more it costs us. +And the more it costs us. +Yeah. +And therefore the less +And meanwhile +competitive we become. +Not necessarily. +W n no. +But these +I don't think it's as simple as that Terry I think +It isn't as simple as that. +You're quite right. +you have to, you have to be able to bend and flex as, as the organization +Mm. +Move on. +requires. +Liabilities we've talked about. +And that's it. +Good. +But I, I thought it was a very useful meeting with er with, with Keith . +It flagged up certain erm items for concern, better that we know than not, not know them. +Management procedures project coordinator. +I'd like, this is one I think that Jim raised. +There's a letter from Jim. +I would like with your agreement Jim t to take that off the agenda and for you Dennis and I to discuss that out of this meeting +Yeah. +I've got a time in your diary for that. +Good. +And then if need be we'll raise it at the next meeting. +Right. +Okay. +I think there's value in us talking about it quietly. +Yes. +Can I substitute one in there very briefly? +Sure. +Er it is another procedure o or set of procedures. +I'm having a devil of a job with the correspondence system that the management procedures demand. +Being that management procedures are supposed to be best practice, +Mhm. +I would put it on record that B E S has never managed this correspondence system, in the way that the management procedures now dictate. +If you look through it, if my adding up is correct, it requires us to keep something in the order of sixteen separate files on one project. +Bloody hell. +It's a lot. +If you look if you look through it I think you'll get +Yeah. +It's a lot. +sixteen separate files on one project +Ridiculous. +Mm. +and quite frankly, we talk about being competitive and what have you. +It's a farce. +My clerk just cannot keep control of this. +And the engineers are saying, this is absolutely ludicrous. +For the vast majority of our schemes which are very small. +Why can't we just have them in a loose-leaf binder with dividers in, and let the engineer decide how to hold documentation together? +Now I can tell you that Swindon are B S five seven five O certificated. +They have a filing system, and the procedure for it which is about two pages is highly efficient, and the engineers think it's the best thing since sliced bread. +And I have +that I've been down to see it. +Mm. +Plus everything's in one file just divided? +Ours +Mm. +to be honest +You can never find what you want. +wrong file +I asked I asked my clerk t to get me file something and he says, +Which one? +Which bit do you want? +I know that's +Mm. +what I keep getting. +I said just give me the file on it. +Which bit? +The green folder? +The red one? +The pink one? +. +Yellow one. +Oh I said +Blue one. +I can't do with all this. +Mm. +Right. +Now I raised that because I think it is a very very serious threat to our efficiency, in project engineering. +Jim y you know the philosophy. +If we can improve let's hom let's home in on it and let's improve it. +Well perhaps it's worthy of discussion with Dennis when we're talking about project +What project at the same meeting. +coordinators. +Yes. +I support that a hundred percent. +Good. +Thanks Jim. +Right. +That was it. +Any other business? +Could I raise two items of any other business? +One is the visit from the I the Irish Railways +certainly made a profit for Intercity out of it with +We don't want to mention it on here. +Do we? +Mm? +Well Trainload Freight haven't got any facilities to fill depots +have they? +No. +They buy in ? +So why? +So why shouldn't they +Its batteries have fallen out, Nola. +Its batteries. +No. +Those are spare batteries. +Oh right. +It's still going. +What are you talking about? +I've just started it again. +It was finished in the middle +Oh well. +of the tape. +Well I don't care. +Mm. +Right. +That is it from me. +Are we on to any other business? +That was my, they were my any other businesses. +Oh right. +Finance nice report you want there. +Well I thought we were going to any other business first. +Mm. +Oh. +I thought we were running out of time. +Well +Yeah. +We are +Why was Monday cancelled? +The dinner? +Oh. +Oh. +Because David was ill. +Because David is ill. +Oh. +Sorry about that. +I forgot to +Didn't you tell them? +No. +We were just told it was cancelled. +I told Amanda +Oh Miss . +why. +I think said she didn't know. +Tt. +Right. +Well you know what women are like. +Now you know. +Okay. +probably. +Right. +I've got two or three small items under any other business if +Well yes. +Right. +Er delegated authorities. +Got Hugh's delegated authorities. +Are you happy for the whole of your group to? +Yes. +I am indeed. +Open this on trust. +Erm +Open this on trust . +Let it be. +Is this the right? +Can I have a copy? +I is this the right way to disseminate this information? +Yeah. +Why not. +within the procedure. +Ah! +Well every time I send something out writes to me on bloody DOPACS saying this is not the way to disseminate this information. +always have a +document. +Yes. +He should. +. Right. +Oh. +Good. +Anyway +We won't read through now +I don't think we need to go through it. +I think if, if there are any +No. +it it doesn't ev I mean the, the, the one main item is th th that shocked us all is that is only Chris can approve the use of consultants, in any shape or form. +More fool that that that. +Excluding I now understand training +Technical. +consultants. +I didn't think it applied to technical consultants. +Oh yes. +Is it? +So if we're going to employ a consultant +Yes. +t er to do a check on a bridge +Yes. +Yes. +Chris . +It has to go to Chris ? +Yeah. +Absolutely. +Even +Yeah. +even though you put that on your form A and the Board have signed it. +But Chris doesn't see the form A. +No. +The Board do. +He's the managing director of it. +Is he? +Well l that's what it says and, and really it should +only be erm a a a rubber stamping exercise. +I mean I cannot believe that the guy +. +Sorry. +wants to sort of maintain that sort of level on, on +Mm. +all lev all expenditure. +Anyway. +So that's that one. +Anyway just summarize that would you? +Chris is the only person who can approve what? +It's the use of consultants. +Er the use of consultants. +Excluding for training purposes. +Now what if it's Re we're doing a job for Regional Railways? +You need to +Can we say to Regional Railways you know? +Ah! +W w we will kn with a bit of luck procurement of consultants, we will get the, we will make a recommendation to the, to the client that, that these consultants are engaged on his behalf. +Right. +And we will certify payments to these consultants when they've done the work. +But the actual letter appointing the consultant and the actual payment of the fee will be just like any other contractor. +And we can do it that way. +That's the, the sensible way to do it. +So +it's only really Intercity jobs that need go to Chris ? +Er yes. +Providing that the, providing that the client's agent is +prepared to stand up +Yeah. +and, and own the job. +Yeah. +Yeah. +Yes. +We don't have +We just treat them like a con a another contractor. +Right. +Erm I, I will look through that and I will see if there's anything within those delegated authorities that I can actually delegate downwards to your good selves. +Would you note on the front sheet, +The date. +th th that I have stamped the date that I received it, +Mm. +and I have put a question er a ring and a question mark +round the fact that I hope that the auditor isn't gonna try and isn pretend that we had that for all last year. +Mm. +Cos the +Mm. +auditor is due to come in actually very soon. +Absolutely. +So I mean I I've stamped that in, in a very positive way so that it's er +Good. +Thank you for that Trev. +you know? +Yeah. +Right. +It is is my intention to have a look through that and see if I can delegate any of those down to your good selves. +Right? +Okay? +It's in that stuff they +Erm +tied up in those blue books. +Yes. +Can I claim my +control. +my disturbance allowance please? +Micromail. +Micromail. +From today we are +w better equipped to get out onto B R's mainframe computer systems,a and the problems that we've had in the past with regards to Micromail ha should disappear. +If it's decided, any of us or all of us o or our reports, are gonna use Micromail can you let me know? +And we will set up mailboxes for you as individuals. +What so we're leaving it to people to decide whether they want to use it? +No. +No. +No. +No. +No. +No. +saying? +. +I'm saying erm, if I give you all a mailbox number immediately and then you never actually log in to your computers to see whether or not you've got any mail that's arrived, then there's absolutely no point in doing that is there? +But if you don't give them a mailbox, you won't encourage other people to send them mail +I quite agree. +thereby, thereby compelling people to use the . +But i if our clients say, oh I want to send Roger something so what's his mailbox number? +Whacks it in, and sends it off, erm a a and Rog never logs in as himself, +He'll never get his mail. +he'll never know th th th th that one of his clients has sent him something. +So if if Roger's +letters on a morning, you don't know what's inside. +That's right. +So it's a, it's a, it's a point of principle +are we gonna be, are we gonna use electronic mail? +I think there should be focal points. +Yeah. +Yeah. +Yeah your clients +You see in fact +Mm. +er yeah this is the beauty of a fax you know, whether you're there or not it gets to you. +Yeah. +And somebody deals with it if you're not there. +But Micromail and you can only access it yourself +Mm. +I can't see +much more flexible than that. +Much more flexible than that. +Yeah. +I mean the beautiful thing about Micromail is y you can get a a a a message up, you can immediately copy it to three other people, or thirty other people if you wish, erm and you can reply to it instantly without having to, you know y you just type a message in and press the button, and it's gone. +It's replied. +It's very very efficient. +Oh I used it +Yes. +It is. +for years. +Very +Yeah. +very efficient system. +But you've got to actually have a wish +Needs to be . +to use it you see. +The only reason most people don't use it is cos they don't like to get on a keyboard of a computer. +That's the one thing that stops them using it. +It's very very efficient. +Well I, I, I have no comment I mean I just don't underst I, I don't know enough about it to, even to be +Right. +W +able to comment on how it should be operated. +Would we like a teach, would we like er +a teaching arranging, for this meeting? +I think it's absolutely +essential that +Mhm. +the staff are advised what this +Right. +facility provides them with. +Right. +Cos it's used nationally all our +Okay. +clients are, are tapped into it, and we should be able to communicate with them at the press of a button. +Absolutely. +Right. +Let let's have, let's have a . +Yes please. +Yes. +At the next meeting a, a twenty minutes, yes. +Client reports and things like that you know you, I mean it's +Oh yes. +We can send them we can s we can send any file we want via Micromail. +We could we could send all +the clients' reports via Micromail, once the project coordinator has agreed that he's happy with what's on there. +Good. +Right. +Agreed. +We'll be briefed at the next meeting. +Isn't it a brave new world? +Sorry. +Erm overtime. +I've had er an informal erm er package through from Paul , er just citing two of erm our staff on the recent erm thirteen week management overtime erm +I bet I can guess the names. +guess one. +Have a guess. +? +Yes. +Yeah. +? +Oh what a hero he is. +Well mis +Who? +Alwyn , Alwyn has shoved +Eric . +has shoved Mr into second place. +In thirteen weeks Alwyn has earned seven thousand one hundred pounds worth of overtime. +Eh? +How does he do ? +W what he do? +Well I mean even Mr in his heyday has never quite +Right. +Now. +Come on. +achieved that. +Yeah. +So what have we got to do about it? +Th th th well i it's not, it's not whether or not +Is it justified? +i i it gotta be justified because Roger and Terry have signed it all off. +I mean I can understand that +In f in fact +I, I know, I know what Terry's problems have been over the past +Yeah. +But the the point +ten weeks +the point that's, that, that er Paul's making is +but we need to get a grip on it. +he says,in the case of Ian the number of occasions where Ian has worked two hours on a Friday morning and then he's worked Friday Saturday as overtime. +And Alwyn has been paid to stay at home on Friday +Probably +and then he's worked Friday Saturday . +Er +Oh. +Yeah. +Yeah. +Just say that again. +Alwyn has what? +He's, he's been paid to stay at home on a Friday +Rest day. +Yeah. +Rest day. +Yeah. +And then he's worked Friday Saturday as overtime. +Yeah. +To keep within the rules. +Yeah. +Yeah. +Yeah. +I right. +He then says,if there's a continuous agr er commitment for weekend working, should we apply the er extra weekend duty payment rather than excess overtime? +Question mark . +Yeah. +That is a good question for Ian actually. +And for our, for our R E set up. +Our proposed R E set up. +I mean we shouldn't be looking at +now we should be looking forward at our new organization. +Yes. +And we are. +Yeah. +And tha +that's all this is +Yeah. +I think that's a very good idea. +just a, are we happy to see massive, it's surprising once people are on E D P one weekend in three or whatever or equivalent, their overtime a a a and their you know they actually +Yeah. +decide whether or not they really need to be on that site for fourteen hours or can they do what they need to do in four? +Aye but working every weekend can i w i if, if it is every weekend is a lot of money, on E D P. +Is it? +Mhm. +Oh yes. +I it's about +one weekend in three's about seven percent isn't it? +Yeah. +So if it's every weekend it'll be about twenty twenty +Every weekend it's about twenty percent. +odd percent. +It's a lot of money. +Mind you not everybody has to work every weekend do they? +Yeah. +Ian does. +No he does n't. +H h he won't when he's working for Terry. +No. +It is fair to s it is fa +Really? +More every day? +it is fair to say that in the case of er in the case of Alwyn, erm because of the special circumstances where we didn't actually use a clerk of works ever on that job +Yeah. +Terry I, I, I know the situation. +so we staffed it but wi but we, but having said that we've gone to Adwick +and we've set off, almost on the same rules. +And, and my, that act those forms stayed on my desk for maybe two weeks whilst I were plotting and thinking what the hell I could do about +Mm. +changing. +But of course you can't it's after the event. +The record +Yeah. +. +But +Y y you don't do any overtime +until somebody's signed it off and authorized it. +Well it's all, it's all signed off and authorized. +Ah. +But on Adwick we have decided, and I've told John or he's been informed, that because we've got a supervisor there I don't want him starting at six in the morning. +Good. +He'll finish at six +at night. +Brilliant. +He's gonna work a standard day. +So it does need managing you're quite right, and I'm, I was gobsmacked at how many hours were on . +Right. +Right. +Well +Th the decision you were putting to us though Trevor, was whether we put somebody on extra duty payment? +That was just a, an option that Paul had suggested might +from York? +avoid some of these large amounts of overtime. +Yeah. +It's up to Terry and Rog are to decide how he's got to safely man the job. +Well Terry, Terry's got more, more +experience of, of this than anybody else around this table. +And it'll be Terry's responsibility in future. +So +So really that's +wh what do you feel about E D P? +Is, is the question +I'd have to talk about wi I could talk to Roger about it and see what +Yeah. +er the scenario is. +As far as one off +Terry you can't go rushing back till we've got the new +Yeah. +erm the new R E outside parties +Set up +leg set up. +And then +Think about when we +But, but really we, I mean we shouldn't be running up massive bills like this +We shouldn't. +cos that sort of overtime i th this +You've gotta be +w if it's on weekends, there is virtually no contribution towards the overheads at all +Okay. +But if, if +from any of that +if Ian isn't +What you've also gotta +doing it, somebody else will have +Yeah. +to. +What, what you've also to bear in mind is +You know erm +If, if that's the case Roger that's fine. +That's right. +Provided that it +If it's genuine overtime I mean there is +Well +erm +Don't worry, we go through Ian's bloody time,tha that time sheet was a week being gone through, being checked. +Mm. +Yeah. +Because the DOPAC +Right. +I got a DOPACS report saying he'd worked thirteen shifts out of fourteen. +It turned out not be right er because he was +Yeah. +booking it in as book twice stage you see. +And that DOPACS for some reason was er +Clocking that up +as a work day. +Right. +Mm. +I think the only danger of looking at E D P , is that if we're doing for the guys in the office, then what do we do with the supervisors? +Yeah. +Our supervisors +It may be that they should be cos they are the ones that work more weekends than anybody. +Yeah. +W +we've just highlighted two technical +staff there, but what if we included supervisors? +What would the picture +Mm. +be? +Ah yeah. +You know our work +But +is at weekends isn't it? +I agree. +I, I don +I think the only action that comes out of that is +Yeah. +that Terry and +Needs controlling. +have a look at that and +keep it within . +We do control it but it is +There isn't an alternative to the supervisors. +There isn't an E D P equivalent unless you start +Mm. +making supervisors +Management staff. +a different grade +Management staff. +That's right. +Okay. +Anyway. +So I'm, I'm gonna leave it to between +Shall I just throw these away then or do you want them to have a second look at or, yeah, I'll bin them. +Right. +Simon? +That's that. +I'll leave it between Roger +Er +and Terry to sort . +Right. +Th the good housekeeping i is the only other +Consultation. +thing. +Consultation date has been picked for three weeks on Tuesday. +And that'll be just as powerful a tool as the Scarborough conference. +Right. +Cos that's what's brassed people off. +We've been mentioning this good housekeeping +Yes. +Yes. +Yes. +Yes. +What's the date? +It's, it's the Tuesday we +get back from +Put it in your diary down. +erm Scarborough. +Tuesday after. +Yes. +That one's team brief in . +Twenty fifth of May. +Yeah. +Twenty fifth. +Yeah. +Er the document will be with the staff reps and I will circulate yourselves, and your staff, erm by the end of the next week. +Hopefully I'll get you an early copy, not with the J Ds and everything but certainly with the left hand side, and the right hand side of the document and the final version of the document with charts +What date was it? +erm +Twenty fifth of May. +mid next week and then give you a day or so to look at it. +And I will be sending it out by next Friday. +So the staff reps will have it for at least a fortnight. +Good. +Okay? +The job descriptions have all finally been evaluated. +and as he's quality only run on perhaps another nine months or a year or whatever, and then revert to the same job description as John +John +. +So perhaps +you would like to break that to Dennis. +Before it becomes common knowledge on, on the documentation. +Who who's representing management at this consultation? +The management staff reps. +Which are +? +No. +The management +team. +Oh. +There's er Trevor and I. +Right. +Unless you wish to +No. +I just +I mean most of it +wanna know what, what involvement there was. +Yeah. +M most of it is just formalizing what we're doing and formalizing the changes in the establishment +Yeah. +that was brought about by, er +the early retirement +Th there'll be a personnel +How is it? +person there to take minutes? +Oh yes. +Ho ? +The figures that went forward for, for Dennis' job presumably the same as last time? +No. +Because if you remember +last time Dennis had three subsections working for him and he's got the equivalent of two now +Oh right. +yeah. +Right. +. Okay. +and the quality team was an M S two and an M S one, and it's now only an +And it's now, yeah. +M S two. +Fine. +So there's been shrinking. +Terry I've +Good. +I've already primed, I've already told Dennis quietly. +Yeah. +Right. +Okay. +And there's no problem +There's no problems as far as he's concerned. +I mean i it'll be a, if Dennis was serious about wanting to go, he'll be er he'll be able to say, look, I'm redundant. +Yeah. +I'm displaced. +Yeah. +Buggers us up promotion-wise in future again but +Well i it was never on that +he was gonna keep the quality leg after he'd gone. +No. +Well once he'd lost that he would have lost the +No. +No. +Yeah. +grade anyhow. +Like the other people lost the grade. +So er that really means that i +a all being well we've sorted that. +What I would like to try and get personnel's agreement to, if a if at all possible, is that we don't do this nonsense of having to close list our staff to jobs that we know we're gonna put them into. +I would like to try and sort that out on the day apart from the +That's sloppy . +I think there's only one post, and it's in Jim's office, where there are too many M S twos existing for the future M S two posts that, that, that we've got on the document. +Apart from that scenario where those people will have to apply for their jobs, and the T Os across the board +Mm. +where Roger's getting rid of more T O posts than we've actually got sitting +Right. +tenants in them. +I think that the rest of the situation should be more or less a straight across thing, and I'm gonna see if we can get Paul +Just slot, slot them in +Well +a and not have to posts. +Well we can identify the P M T posts anyway so there'll be +Right. +no problem there. +It's the management staff +Yeah. +posts. +We would want to put the people across into what er are actually their existing jobs. +I would go along with that. +Er that is not as simple as you say though +No. +Trevor +No. +I have Colin as an M S three. +Of course y but, but he is an M S three +So what? +and under the close listing jobs, Roger +He'll be at M S three. +he will be at an M S three. +M S three. +And he will be post. +He will be close listed into an M S three post. +But we said, ah. +but there is not, he cannot occupy an M S three design post with +Roger +the new +He's doing it now. +he's carrying he is in the post at the moment +do with outside parties. +No. +No. +He isn't. +He isn't. +He is doing a job in your office as an assistant section engineer at the moment. +Dealing with outside party work. +No. +No. +No. +No. +He's +Well that's what he's doing cos that's all he can do. +His job description, his job description . +Right. +His job description is the same as everybody else's. +If at the +Well let's not play on words. +Well okay then. +No. +No. +If at the end of the day once we have gone through the goo the good housekeena keeping exercise and he has been put into an M S three post that you think he is not capable of, then you've got two options. +You have got to train that person which you could have been doing for years and +for years. +haven't. +You +Now come off it. +Come off +I think Roger's Roger has, we might not like it but Roger may well have a point cos he doesn't ha +Yeah I, I +he doesn't have to put Colin in an M S three just because you've got a vacancy. +Hang on. +I'm c look let me just give him the two options. +The two options are, one you train somebody so +that you give them additional training so they +Yeah. +can do the job. +Or two you take the +erm the managerial action which is available for you,t to take him out of there and put him into a different post, because he's not capable of doing . +Or the yes. +A managerial action could be that he transfers with the outside party services. +You can't cos . +You can't because they haven't got another job. +There isn't a job in there. +There is no three in there. +There is no three in there. +There is no three in there. +No but there you have, you'll have three vacancies won't you? +No. +You've, you've no M S three +As what? +vacancies? +I mean what you're basically saying +As what? +is that I don't want him so +You've got two M S sh +so I'll hand over to, to . +No. +I'm saying he might be more +With the R E the R E +doing that job +set up +Mm? +The R E set up. +It is a problem +You're gonna have to put Ian +It's a big problem. +you're gonna have to put +but I +Ian in one of those two jobs. +One of those three jobs aren't you? +The R E set up. +The R E set up. +The R E's outside +Am I? +party job. +Yeah. +And then you're gonna be faced with, with two people at the moment, erm that do the running around on the outside party +Nick and Steve . +Yeah. +I, I think what we +But I'm not +I think the process we should go through is a . +You wanna be careful there because I'm not tak I'm not necessarily taking those. +Mm. +The process we will go through +Well that +we will slot, we'll +Yeah. +That will +slot people in and we've, we I I mean i if we look at the Colin situation. +Colin is, is currently occupying an M S three job within your office. +And, and within the rules of the game we can do nothing other than +Put him into that +put him into that post. +Now acknowledging what you say Rog, if you consider he can't do that work, then as the next phase what we're gonna have to do, you and I, is to see what action we can take. +Me with an overview of the organization, to see if there is anywhere else we can put him, and off, off the top I can't think of anywhere. +Erm but then we, we w we need to start thinking about how we get the best out of Colin. +Cos that's what it's all about isn't it? +well we've been trying to think how we could get the best out of Colin for the past four bloody years. +Remember Colin was put into that job er because he was displaced, he didn't want to go into the job. +Erm we know where there is a very good place +Absolutely. +that Colin could go and do a good job +Send him there. +and he would maybe be a damn sight happier than he will be if he stays behind. +Yeah. +And it's still an Intercity +Have done. +post. +What did he say? +spoken to him. +What did he say? +Tt. +He said they'd been through the a the er interview process and they've chosen who they want. +But it's still at your, if it was going to another sector I could understand that attitude, but when it is being, it's still within Intercity, I just cannot understand that that is the attitude we take. +Terry er sorry Roger if, if I were interviewing for posts, I would appoint, and you know full well I would, the people that I thought were best for that job. +And I would make that judgement and I would appoint it. +That is precisely what Kim and Kevin have done. +I have tried to er persuade him that, that Colin would be good for that job. +End of story as I see it. +Mm. +And he is now our responsibility, and we're gonna have to er determine what the right management action is. +He's a chartered engineer. +I mean he's no nugget he's er +And he will be carrying out the dut +he will be carrying out the duties +Well +not of a subsection leader Roger but +of a project, senior project engineer. +Senior project engineer. +Yeah. +Well y +Which means he might have to do some design. +Yes. +Yeah. +Yes. +And wh why not? +We send him on a B S five four double O course. +That's right. +We can train him and +And I, I personally believe that, I personally believe that Colin has got ability if we exploit it. +It's very easy to say that +Yes. +It is. +and we we have tried and tried but you cannot light the spark. +. +Can I suggest we er +Perhaps he might he better off in the works office? +Yeah well he comes to work +from nine till five +I suggest you turn the tape recorder off. +and that's it. +Ca can we move on? +Terry +Because w we're actually stuck on one person +Yeah. +Yeah. +We we are. +We're getting +The principle I would like to put forward is that if we are gonna place +is that Trevor on behalf of you comes round and talks to each of us to make sure that what yo what you're gonna propose +Yeah. +fits with our feelings. +Splendid idea. +Yeah. +I mean we we're gonna have to, we're gonna have to be very careful +with the M S twos anyway, because of these two twos down in the +Mm. +works office. +Perhaps +Well yeah. +No good thinking he's sending +of in fact +No. +I I'm sure that the twos we're gonna have to close list +I think you will. +Anyway +erm +talk it through with us. +Okay. +We, we can make an assumption that we're gonna get the consultation through as, as we've +as we've intended. +and the others. +Yeah. +If there are any changes they will be very marginal. +I mean there will +Right. +be on grades for a start because +our jobs evaluated. +Mm. +And I'm not sure where any changes would be. +Well you've got some flexibility on the +Well let's go through the philosophy. +P and T grades but that's all. +Yeah. +You can, you can, you can shadow list or whatever it's called +But that's, that's about all. +So we can make an assumption and I think we should do that before twenty fifth of May. +Yeah. +We should go through a process o of this group of slotting, in accordance with the rules, and get that +Yeah. +slotting done so we have a template there that we can deal with on the twenty fifth. +Right. +When we've got the left and right hand side of the document which Joan's well on with at the moment, we can pencil in very lightly the jobs +Pencil yeah +that we see going straight across +We'll we'll agree them with you and then we'll, we'll +Yeah. +use that as a template. +Right. +I'll come round each of you and, and do that. +Okay. +Good. +Cos yours is gonna be complicated . +Right. +Any, any more any other businesses? +Because I would like deal with the erm +Erm I've I have a question. +Is, is i I thought we were +Okay. +doing erm for some unknown reason +rule reviewing. +Oh. +That's this afternoon. +Not on the agenda. +Not on the +Well I had to do that agenda when Hugh wasn't here, so +I'll go and get Andrew and I'll just check with Steve that erm +He's gonna rule review us. +he is rule reviewing +Good. +us this afternoon. +But I've already been done so +Any other business? +Good. +Thanks . +That was quite a useful move. +The main thing is that th the financial commentary. +What I would like to do with the financi financial commentary, is because it is, is an historic document, I would like to pull out a few plums which we can team brief. +And +What about us finding out what the is like? +It is. +We're only doing it for and . +may well be. +We'll put half a mind on it. +I, I'm yeah. +I haven't seen it. +Alright? +Haven't you seen it? +Until just now. +passed down +Yes. +this morning? +Er bu late last night. +I mean +I think we sho we could have done with some time to look at it really. +unless Andrew's dropped some enormous goolies, I can't see that the plums that I've picked out should be +We +all that significant. +I ca sorry. +I can see something in here you've got +that disappoints me having spoken to Andrew about it. +Er and that's that he's pulled out here the income generated by various departments. +And for once thank goodness he's split works and bridges by taking the +Yeah. +supervision out which is what I asked him to do. +But what I did say, and he said he could do it, was to divide up, to compare us, that he could divide up the profitability and I'm not sure that, you know i in terms of +how many staff did Rog have? +How many staff did I have? +And what does that equate to? +In terms of income? +Cos that's the relevant part is how much each individual is, is erm +It's got a profitability on, on page three. +Page three. +Let me have a look. +As I say I've only just started +Mm. +flicking through it. +Erm there's the profit and loss. +Return I don't quite unders can somebody tell me what each indiv I mean basically I would have expected to see the money earned divided by the, the number of staff telling me how much +Right. +You're talking about contribution to the fee earning then? +Rather than +Yes. +That's been dropped. +So what did? +What's, what's number three of profitability mean? +Number three. +You've got a return on expenditure for your function of eight point nine percent. +In other words tha that is +your profit. +Eight point nine percent and that's er that's +No. +That's that's my contribution towards the total of the group isn't it? +No. +It's a return on expenditure. +If your +If I've read it right. +if your overall costs, which are on the sheet before that Terry +Right. +I'm with you. +Yeah. +are one million and ninety nine pounds, it costs to run your organization. +Divided by the staff. +Ah. +So that is it then. +Alright? +That's it. +Good. +So he's got it there and then what he's done then, is he's deducted the non fee earning element of the organization. +Pro-rata'd that through the +Mm. +functions and come up with a revised profit and loss. +Okay? +I don't see how the supervisor can make a loss. +Do you? +Yeah. +Well it's, it's, it's Trevor's organization isn't it that's being +I'm non long long time you know. +charged off against each other 's . +But all their time's chargeable. +that time. +All their time's chargeable for +No. +No. +No. +They they'll have to take a share +Well don't ask me. +of the overheads +Yeah. +They charge to overheads if they weren't doing a job. +But they don't,co could be Roger. +Yeah. +But, or you have the tendency +It could be +to put two people on a job when +one would have done. +Well yeah. +It co +You know. +er it could be that either we're not recovering costs on, on that basis or +costs on the bill like +perhaps +Ah. +that the er charge that we're charging the client isn't high enough +don't we? +Well it isn't. +Mm. +Yeah. +hours +To cover the overheads in that er appointment. +Yeah. +That's the problem. +I mean that's, that's the way I read it. +So w we're not charging out for them at a high enough rate. +Marginally . +Mm. +For who sorry? +supervisors. +The problem with work supervisors is I think we hinted before, if you think about it, is the fact that our plans and what have you all go forward assuming it's so many hours. +It doesn't take in the fact that you're actually paying them double time for overtime. +Right. +And, and one and a half times. +Yeah. +And they're +Mm. +working overtime +So the more overtime you work as I've said before the less efficient we become. +In terms of profitability. +What's happened here? +Right. +There was a co +Cockup? +cockup with the one of the formulas. +Thank you. +Tt ruins. +Ruins. +So which bit's the ? +So whi which are these replacing Andrew? +Er they're page three +Page four +Page three. +a second. +Mm. +Rip that off there +Which part of page three +Mm. +has been changed then? +All of page +All of it. +So w so completely new. +Oh. +Hang on. +No it isn't. +It's . +Oh God. +Ah. +different? +What's different? +Or shall I just put on the? +There's only the bottom +It's only +There's only the bottom. +There's only the bottom. +The table +table +table at the bottom. +It's just the table. +So +So it's that, it's, it's only that table there? +And as far as I'm concerned it doesn't make any significant difference +gone down. +to my analysis. +So is that there on page three? +. +Option erm sorry, point three. +On page three yeah. +Right. +It's just those numbers then isn't it? +It's just those numbers. +Yeah. +So those two pages +Again. +Erm +want replacing. +I'm happy about that. +Yeah. +Yeah. +Yeah. +And then in the +I'm not +Here's an extra sheet. +These are extra sheets. +Right. +Good. +That one there. +Yeah. +I know. +be +I can't be dealing with all +Oh good. +these bloody changes. +Pro capita fee earning bids. +Yes . +Al 's staff. +Hugh 's staff. +Right. +So there's an extra sheet three B. +Mm. +First of all can I say, it's a good report, +Yeah. +and thank you Andrew. +Well done. +Erm the next question I ask is, how do we make staff aware of the content? +Well we discussed that early on, we're gonna actually issue this as part of our annual report. +And it's cos I think it's important that +Mm. +staff do understand er I, I mean I wonder how many of our staff understand how much detail we look at and have available? +Probably very few. +Yeah. +And I think it's important that they, they should know the, the amount of information that is available, and how I think, how well we do monitor er our financial performance. +Cos i it is important. +Yeah. +It's also +Good. +important our staff are educated in their effect on this. +Yes. +Cos I don't think, well I've got to speak for B E S. +I have a number of staff who just do not see, that all of this is generated by them. +Yes cos it all comes out of DOPACS without DOPACS you haven't got any of this. +Every single thing on here comes out of that +Mm. +report they make on the +Yeah. +income side. +So if they balls it up we get false +Yeah. +figures . +If the turn around documents are wrong +Yeah. +But how do we get that across? +Well I think that has to be said. +I think that ought to be said to staff. +Right. +I mean I'm gonna suggest +When when this is . +that t th that that w we team brief certain aspects of this today. +Mm. +Erm +Yeah. +and I'm gonna suggest that you take that along with you and you say, look, this is what you get, er whenever we want it. +This is the end of year report. +Erm the first thing I'm,I I would like t t to draw out is that at the end of the year we made a profit of a hundred sixty thousand pounds. +A hundred and ninety. +Where does it say that? +? +A hundred and ninety. +A hundred and ninety thousand +Where does it say that? +? +That is, it was in er +It's at the bottom of page . +Bottom of page three it is. +Bottom of page t new page three? +Yeah. +A hundred and ninety thousand pounds. +Thank you for that er Andrew. +Okay? +So well done lads. +That's pretty good in a, in a year that has been fairly tough. +That's the good news. +The next point I would raise, and this is er by looking at item three on page one, is the income split by business and profit +centre +The forty five for +Regional Railways +which, yeah. +Mm. +And I would like to draw out of there the fact that eighteen percent of our work is for Intercity, forty five percent is for Regional Railways +Sorry Jim. +and sixteen percent for Network South East. +If you add those two up they come to about sixty one percent nearly sixty two percent. +Those two areas of work, two thirds of our work, I see as being areas of risk. +Because Croydon are anxious to maintain, or to take all the work, for Network +Mm. +South East. +Glasgow and Birmingham are anxious to take all the work for Regional Railways. +The way that we continue, our clients, the ones that we contract with, are anxious to continue working with us. +That is because we've given them good service over the past three years. +And it's important for our staff to be aware of that, and to realize that we have gotta continue to give, those two clients I believe in particular, the best possible service we can provide. +We're going down the Swanee if we don't. +Mm. +So that, that was message number two. +We did get some rates from Glasgow didn't we? +Mm. +Yeah +Yes. +we got, theirs were higher than ours. +Theirs were higher than ours. +Yeah? +Yeah. +Good. +Erm in item four I didn't understand item four. +Mm. +This is money that we've lost. +These are the balls-ups. +Right. +These are the jobs that we've transferred money or given money back. +Okay. +Yeah. +I, I don't intend to spend any time on that at all we went through it last time +No it's just, it's just an opportunity +Oh. +Green Bottom being debited to bridge? +Come on. +It's joint. +Fair enough. +Roger what does it matter? +does it matter? +As a group I mean the other thing that surprised me a bit, I, I spoke to Ken yesterday and said, how did you receive? +How was the fifty thousand pound credit +received for Green Bottom? +And he said, oh yes, he said, Roger told me about that, he said, I didn't even know we were getting that. +surprised me. +He's a project coordinator. +Right. +Fine. +I mean Ro R Roger advised the client's agent in the normal way I mean +If somebody's accepted the, the fifty thousand that we passed +Good. +back +It wou anyway thank you for that. +I would. +It was just that i it was almost in passing he said, well yeah Roger told me about that. +And it wasn't just a sort of formal thing or anything, that was the impression I got. +I may be wrong. +Mm. +I told him about it. +Yes. +Formally? +But er, mm? +Formally? +Only in conversa only verbally, I haven't written to him and told him. +Oh. +Because I asked you and remember I rang you up about a week, a week ago and said, what, which number have you +credited? +And you said you didn't know yet. +That's right. +But er I, I erm Andrew sent off er through I B I S because we were +Yeah. +quite close to the, the, the sort of er gates coming down on us, fifty thousand pounds. +And I told y I said to y er before he did that I said, would it cause a client a problem if we gave them back some money? +Right. +And you said, no +No. +they'll be delighted. +And I said, would you clear that with him then and tell him that it's coming? +Erm a as you're the project coordinator and I'll, I'll get it into the system? +Right. +Our objective , the objective of giving a fifty thousand pounds refund on Green Bottom, was twofold. +One was to erm reimburse them for er errors that we feel that er, we could have avoided. +But the second one was to actually make it a bit of bloody exercise in marketing. +Erm and I think that a well I don't think, it's essential that we send Regional Railways a letter, which says that we have decided to refund this, erm to assist them in er financially.? +Yeah. +This will be, don't you see I'm in the process of answering a letter to Regional Railways, on the whole finances of er Leeds North Western, and I needed to know which number you'd actually +Mm. +credited. +Mm. +Right. +Because there are various er numbers that I know +well John'll +Rog +and their letter if you do that will be done. +for me? +Good. +Good lad. +Fine. +No problem. +Erm i in actual fact the,th the decision to do that, inadvertently, is, is an absolute masterstroke, because I know that er Ken is in real problems with fees for the electrification people. +And he's gon they are overspending by something like one point one million. +So any contributions from +Oh we'll have it back then. +any contribution from us +Drop in the ocean . +er is, is very handsomely received. +So it was a good move that. +Erm good. +Next thing I got on was erm +There's two on that page by the way, two B is the item I mentioned about graduates isn't it? +Full cost of the graduate trainees +Yeah. +increases has increased the in expenditure +Yes because previous to this year, erm the R C E has been picking up a proportion of their costs. +So the next message that I was going to or the next thing I was concerned about really, was on page +three, +Yeah. +item two, profitability. +Er I think tha that we need to look at why there is such a significant difference in profitability, between the bridge and P Way, who are making what would appear to be a reasonable amount, er and the other four sections. +And all, all I'm looking for there are the reasons for those figures being so much different from bridge and P Way. +And +Some of it by clever accounting on the part of Andrew +Mm. +by carrying some of the profit forward from last year to this year. +Yes I mean th that's a point tha that's erm put on there. +If we, if we put the profit carried forward er that we'd earned this year on erm the Upminster Signal thing, +two hundred and forty nine thousand wasn't it? +Yes. +Which is another three percent isn't it? +Which took it +Mm. +up to nearly seven point nine +Mm. +for B E S. +We can look at the +Co ? +What, what I'm looking for i i are two things really. +One is the reasons why there's such a difference,a and two is do we need to take any action? +And really Andrew what I want you and Trevor, what I want you and Andrew to do is, is to give me answers to that. +Most of this I would think, could be +I I don't want thinks I want facts. +No. +Oh yeah. +Right? +I want to know what the difference is, and I want to know whether we need to take action or what? +Yeah. +Okay? +So if you could do that for the next meeting I'd be grateful. +Do you want an analysis of the, of the +Yeah. +profit ? +Why there's a difference. +That's right. +Now the next thing erm, on the same page was, having taken away the,th th the non fee earning elements it actually pushed, and I'm looking at your revised sheet now +Yes. +it pushed B E S work supervisors and P Q S into a, a loss making situation, admittedly only marginally. +Erm and, and that wants to be part of that exercise, really, of, of looking at the reasons a a and telling us whether we need to take any action. +Well she's picked it up +Five thousand loss +on a works supervisor. +And +. +Yes. +It means the rates are wrong for works supervisors doesn't it? +No. +It means the rates are virtually right doesn't it? +What we've charged, what we've charged the supervisors off with, is the full time C O three plus er pager, self-owned transport +Mm. +me and er +Well you got one +Well the question then is do we need to be charging work supervisors +and +out a to our clients at a higher rate in future? +That's what I'm saying. +Yes. +Well +Because of the overtime scenario. +Make some money. +It's a part that even +Roger's been complaining to me +Ah +that the supervisor rate is far too high a a and that's one of the reasons +But we're losing money on it. +Losing money on it. +Yeah. +How can it be too high? +Well we are losing we're breaking even on it. +We're not +It says we're losing money there. +The group as a whole +You co you could turn round and say, alright they didn't have a full time C O three they had +But supervisor +Right. +rate is,i i is that salary +Doesn't matter. +divided by sixteen hundred times two point six? +No. +No. +No. +It's been reduced. +Because of you. +Yeah. +Right. +I I'll buy that. +One thousand pounds on, what's the total expenditure? +No. +Five thousand pounds. +Five thousand. +Five thousand pounds on five hundred +Thousand. +thousand +Is it? +One percent. +B E S has more or +less broken even as well as you see. +Th this +Yeah. +But really why? +I mean we, we should be +But I mean we all are. +targeting at making a modest profit. +Yeah. +We're targeted at making a modest +Yeah. +profit for the group. +Group. +Right? +The modest +That's right. +profit for the group is a hundred and ninety thousand pounds. +Which is superb. +Jus just about +Right. +right. +Okay. +If we, if we had targeted making a profit of say five hundred and sixty five thousand pounds just for instance +Right. +everybody would have made +A sound argument. +a reasonable profit but some would have made more than others. +When you're looking at an,a a a an average profit for the group erm you +I'll tell you what it's a sound argument for the time being but it's not a sound argument if we're involved in a management buy out. +Aye but you've gotta +Ah yes. +you've gotta look at +Ah y y +alternatives. +You gotta decide whether or not one service allows +Yeah. +you to provide another one or not. +embarrassing in future. +You've gotta look at your rates there's a lot of things you've gotta +You see if you'd tagged, if you'd added the work supervisor costs into Roger's cost centre there would have been no worries. +You wouldn't have even noticed that they were making +th they were only just breaking even. +And also the works supervisor, they've added nearly twenty eight thousand pounds to the organization. +They've made a contribution towards +the costs, and if, if we hadn't got the supervisors then you would have all made a proportion +Mm +less of that profit, because that twenty eight thousand pounds would have had to have been +found by somebody else. +I, I must be er +? +Yeah but the net isn b the net cost is five less, five thousand lost not twenty eight +in. +No. +No. +No. +No. +You're five out. +If you took the work supervisors out +out the group all together +Yes. +you would be twenty eight thousand pounds less. +because you still have the same +organization. +You'd still have the quality manager the safety engineer +and Hugh and Nola to pay. +twenty one percent +And i they are making a positive contribution of twenty eight thousand pounds towards those overheads +Right. +Gents I, I don't think it's worth spending that much time on that. +I, I mean I, I wanted to raise that. +I'm reasonably convinced +Mm. +well I am convinced by Andrew's explanation erm I would like to say in terms of when we look at the staff costs against budget, and we came in at only eleven thousand pounds less, er I think that is a erm that we, we, we can congratulate our business manager, on the good control that's been exercised over the past year. +Is that reasonable? +There was a th +Jiggery-pokery? +. +More luck than good +I think so because I don't know where we got +what with the amount of to-ing and fro-ing with agency staff and vacancies er that we've got erm +And the graduates initially were only putting in about a hundred and thirty three thousand and they came out as four and a half. +Right. +Oh well I take back what I said then. +Please take it back. +Because that is bound to be a volatile part of the business. +Can I? +I'm, I'm not an accountant or an economist +No. +or anything like that . +But by God, you've got a lot of money. +Yeah. +But, bloody wish we had. +But one thing that is very relevant which, which you've gotta think about is that, we all thought Operation Quickspend was great news didn't we? +Yes. +It's bad news isn't it? +We did. +It's absolutely the worst type of business we ought to be +Hear hear. +doing. +I'll buy that. +Because it +involves staff in overtime +Yeah. +Which +to get the job done which we cannot recover. +And it meant that jobs you'd already got planned +So that's +were thrown into chaos +Yeah. +anyway +But +But +think it's good business when it's +really bad news. +Yeah. +I bad news Terry but it's work. +It's bad news, it's bad news on a time basis. +Yeah. +It's good news if we do it on a fixed fee and say, we have had to enhance some of our rates +Correct. +Mm. +to cover certain bits and +Yeah. +pieces. +Correct. +But we Yeah. +But it's a good marketing exercise the fact that you do it. +It is and in terms of +Yeah. +profitability +You can turn round and say +Get lost. +it's destroyed the figures. +no use going to York they can't . +Yeah but the the funny thing was that if we hadn't +of done Quickspend, you'd have been looking at figures that showed a lot more profitability. +Yeah. +Oh . +Yes. +Er? +You would. +No. +I think +It would because the overtime +the same profit. +If you're charging off er an M S two on a twenty four pound an hour +It's the supervisors that are the problem. +The supervisors when they work double time +Yeah. +contribute something like about fifty P an hour towards the overheads. +That's all. +It is a positive contribution though +a and, and their standard their standard year,the their standard year +But their expenses you . +does ah ri yes. +There's the expenses. +There's all their expenses . +But their standard year does erm make the normal +Yeah. +contribution +Anyway +towards the overheads. +It's not quite the bonanza we think it +Do we need? +is when you're doing a Quickspend. +You think +No. +great! +You know loads of work. +money in but in actual fact it's, it's going out faster than it's coming in. +No i +Thanks for pointing that out Terry +No. +I i i it's not. +But i it's +But +Well you have raised a point +and that is that +No. +the over the next years +We just spent seven thousand quid on Alwyn that's non-recoverable because of Quickspend. +Te the important message that you're, you've raised and it is a very important one, is that over the next years, I mean we, we will have to change the way that we charge for +Yeah. +that service. +Yeah. +I mean at the moment we can't. +There's no benefit to us. +All we would +do is end up making a bigger profit +Mm. +which, which we would just have +Do you think? +to put into limbo. +Sorry. +Andrew didn't think I was right there. +He's not. +You, you +No. +you, you sh you shook you head when I said Alwyn had made a loss. +No. +Yes. +He would have earned more income on the seven thousand pounds. +He would because some of it is only time and a third +No. +That seven thousand was only the overtime payment. +Yes. +He was getting paid standard time anyway and the hours going forward on DOPACS +seven thousand +for site supervision would only be straightforward hours. +Yes. +But if, if, if Alwyn makes his normal contribution during his thirty six and a half hour week +Two point six. +then if we're charging him out at roughly two point one, which I think we are something like that with our discount +He's already covered his overheads. +he's covered his overheads. +If we pay him at time and three quarters which is the most we can pay him, we're still making point six of a er on top of that. +The contribution that he actually earns is . +I can't believe you're telling me the truth because that would mean if everybody worked overtime on that basis, we'd all still making a profit. +Yes. +much though. +Can't work. +You don't make very much but you make a bit. +It can't be true cos +As a percentage +Have a look +It's close. +it ca I mean that just can't be true. +Alright. +Right. +Next thing. +Can I raise one final point +on this? +And that is I think the costs +Mm. +the on-costs er to B E S, and it's pro-rata to the others, of fifty six thousand pounds for services largely at the business planning manager. +I would like to know what I get for that. +Right. +Well +That's equivalent to two members of staff. +I w I was coming, I was coming almost to that Jim. +Do you mind if I just +No. +raise a, a very fundamental point? +And this is i if I take it t to sheet ten, which is the staff numbers statement. +Is this with Irish? +No? +No. +Staff numbers statement erm and, and we look at the right hand column, you will find that we have a hundred and thirty nine fee earning people, and fifty eight support. +Which works out as a percentage, that twenty nine percent of our staff the moment are support staff. +I believe that is too high. +So do I. +Some are trainees actually do maybe I've classed the fee earning staff which are on the areas, actually maybe some aren't actually non fee earners. +The twenty three trainees. +Right. +Can I? +Cos what I w I mean it's jus t I don't +Oh yes. +You've got the you've got all the twenty three in there a and +They'll be +three quarters of those are fee earning at any one time. +Right. +Whi ? +Well I would like those numbers t to be adjusted. +I'll tell you what I was gonna do er I was gonna point out two things. +One is that twenty nine percent is too high and you've explained that isn't, that is an artificial figure. +And if it's an artificial figure then we should readjust the figures to +Mm. +to show the realism of the situation. +I was gonna compare that with the er th th the, the numbers under your heading of actual, where we have an establishment of two hundred and forty eight. +Right? +No. +Cos if +Yes. +Ah yeah. +Two hundred and forty eight. +Mhm. +Now twenty nine as a proportion of two hundred and forty eight, works out as er somewhere around about ten percent. +Right? +Mhm. +That's twenty nine percent +Oh shit! +Sorry. +Fifty eight of two hundred and forty eight. +If it's still, it's twenty five percent isn't it? +Yeah. +It's still high. +Right. +There is . +Yes. +Right. +That's always the case. +Yeah. +Yeah. +Okay. +So we've come the premise. +Erm twenty nine percent is too high. +What is the actual percentage of support compared to fee earning? +That is the next question. +And then the final question is, what is what should our target percentage be? +And then the next question is, what do we prep +How do we? +What do we do about it? +what services that we incur at the moment, are we prepared to give up? +What do we do about it? +That's right. +Because I take it that that support, those non, those support non fee earning staff are, me and Nola,er the clerical staff in P Way, works, B E S +bridges +almost the whole of erm +The whole of my organization. +of, of, of Trevor's organization, +Q +And, and, and +And Q +And Quality and erm +Yeah. +the clerical staff in the Quantity Surveyors. +Over to you Jim. +Sorry. +I just I wanted to bring that out because I do feel that twenty nine percent is, is too high. +Er an and I +No. +I have noted what Andrew's said about the graduates, and that we are actually getting some fee earning +Mm. +from them. +Well look at, look at, look at that my organization bought for twenty six, twenty seven staff, fifty four thousand pounds. +Mm. +Now two thousand pounds per member of staff I, I feel that it's a very very high figure. +Considering we're paying for personnel on top of it and, and all the other things like telephones and accommodation. +I asked the question, what am I getting for two thousand pounds a head? +Does that two? +Is that two thousand pounds s purely from business planning management? +Well well the majority of, of it is. +Yes. +I mean +Or is it from your own clerical section? +No. +No. +No. +Over and above the fact that he has three clerks, +Right. +he h is to, having to pick up on a per capita basis of fee earners, which is how Andrew has distributed these costs. +Mm. +He's having to pick up the equivalent of +two thousand pounds per fee earner. +To enjoy +having you and Nola, Trudy and +Dennis. +No and Peter. +Peter and my organization. +Now Jim's arguing +perhaps +That it's too high. +that it's too high. +Well it's equivalent, it's equivalent +I don't disagree. +to two to three staff. +It's almost I could take on board another two to three clerks, and I could say, could I do what +that overhead currently does for me? +Right. +With an extra two to three people? +Now tha that's just very crude putting it . +But you couldn't. +You couldn't do the DOPACS could you? +You co you co +Cos the I Ts support er +I think what is more interesting +Why couldn't I do the DOPACS? +Safety. +Why can't I do appointment contracts? +I've argued this for long enough. +Yes I can. +Not, not, not, not . +Yes I want to or +Can I make the point +Yeah. +gotta emphasize Jim's +Yeah. +I don't know the answers but I'm gonna emphasize the point now. +Jim did say if I looked at mine, and I only have just looked at it er if I've read the fig if I've read the figures right and I +you pay a lot more than . +haven't got many more staff only about +twenty four. +Mm. +Yeah. +Would you pay? +I pay seventy seven thousand pounds. +Mm. +Which is an hell of a lot of money compared to your +Gents I +lot. +I, I, I think +Pardon? +staff. +Yeah. +And thirty two staff when I'm paying seventy +Well Rog Roger +seven thousand quid. +Well all the same proportions aren't they? +We're +Yes. +paying the same for it. +Again. +Can I suggest that what we need to do +about this +Yeah. +is we've i highlighted +a problem, and I think it is a genuine problem, probably the biggest problem that we have to address at the moment. +Erm and I +Mm. +I think +we should, we should set a target, an initial target, that we wish to hi to hit. +And a as a crude thing I was gonna suggest erm two course of action. +One is Andrew goes away now and readjusts these figures,t to put the graduates, some of the graduates into the fee earning er column. +Come up with a revised percentage. +That's not gonna affect the point that Jim Jim's talking about +It is. +poun no he's not. +Jim's talking about pounds. +Jim's talking about the fact th th th the salaries of the graduates don't come into that. +The gr the, the salaries of the graduates have been shared out among the people who have earned fees from them while they've been there. +Individually. +I made a thirty four thousand pound profit at the end of March, and then Trevor gave me a bill for fifty six thousand +Which demolished the whole lot and more. +for his services. +Now the +point is, another point to note is I had +Mm. +no idea that charge was coming on board. +Well that's not good enough. +Way through +Ah. +the financial year. +I didn't +Now +Well that's not good enough. +Wait a minute. +Wait a minute. +That's not fair. +I did n't. +We when we have, when we have done, I mean tha that's isn't a a charge to you. +You won't actually have to pay it out. +All we've actually done is to say, right +if we've got these overheads, I mean it was always shown as another lump of money in the bottom. +Business and planning manager, minus so much or in brackets or whatever. +What we decided to do, because I thought that's what you'd been pressing for, was to show that as the equivalent affect of, okay, you think you're making these profits but you're actually enjoying services that you're not paying for. +About period ten and correct me if I'm wrong Andrew I was told it would be about a thousand, roughly a thousand pounds per fee earning employee. +It's over two thousand pounds per fee earning employee. +Well then Andrew gave you +Now what +the wrong figure. +Well what I'm saying is, yeah and I mean we're all learning by this. +If you're gonna run a business, you need to know what charges are coming on board you so you can adjust your rates so you +Mm. +can go for +more work +But, but we +and this sort of thing. +But, but we are adjusting our rates and going for more work on the basis of a group, +Yes. +and not on the basis of individual offices. +Right. +But I think what's , what +Oh no, no, no, no. +Hey +may be of relevance +wait a minute. +If I'm +accountable +Yeah. +for the performance of B E S which I am +group. +Yeah. +rightly so +I've gotta have authority to run it. +And that means I've gotta have the information upon which to run it. +You could. +That could be +If I've got a gap in the workload I can go and +Mm. +fill a gap. +But I think I, I think what I'd like to +You know. +know Hugh, to try to help the point +I'd like to know what the staff do in Trevor's organization. +If that isn't a rude question. +not on. +This is, I, I'm not looking for a +. +You see I have some +Oh why not? +It's er +No. +No. +Trevor. +No. +Wh wh when we're looking at +Alright then. +when we're looking at cost, cost and what have you. +You know what can be done elsewhere and how we can best utilize existing staff, it may well be as somebody has said, that I mean we've got Rachel there, just to pick on one post, where you're, cos it's one I happen to know what's she, what's she supposed to be doing. +Or some of what she's supposed to be doing +Mm. +is to be honest she's of little benefit to my organization. +She organizes training +Mhm. +but Jeremy could do that. +One of my other clerks could actually do that. +Or we could take the work off Jeremy +Or, or, yes, I mean wh what +you could ac what you, what you, you've gotta be careful what you're +We could centralize training again. +actually saying is that perhaps you don't need +Well I don't know what the, I don't know what the +three clerks +Absolutely. +in each of the design functions. +Yes. +And two clerks is, which is what +Quite. +Norman manages with, might more be the order of the day. +Wh what I would like to +I agree. +suggest we do,beca because it is a very valid point +I've only got two supervisors. +and, and it's one that I think is, it is a priority one for addressing, I think we should ask Trevor er and An and Andrew,t to draw up if you like details of the whole of the costs of the overheads within this organization. +I mean we know wha we know what Trevor's is a Trevor's is transparent. +It's three hundred and twenty two thousand pounds a year. +Mm. +Er what I +Yeah but what? +What are we actually getting for that? +Right. +Wh what I was gonna su +fifty thousand +I seriously think Hugh coming back to my point, I seriously don't know what +those staff do. +Yeah. +I +I know what some of them do +Let me finish. +I can't assess +I was I was gonna suggest that Trevor an an and Andrew draw up +Do you know what yours do? +Yes. +Shh. +Yes. +Trevor and Andrew draw up a comprehensive list of +what the overall overhead is for this organization, in terms of people +and expenses and so on. +That we then analyze that, that, that, that report indicates what people do, and we analyze, if you like, where we can investigate possible reductions. +Alternative ways of doing it. +Because I mean if we add all these together gents, I mean I pi I homed in on the number, on, on the people, because if you look at our budgets, staff costs are something like ninety percent of our budget +Mm. +make up. +Yeah. +Which means that, that twenty nine percent isn't far off representing the overhead charge on this organization. +I know. +And I, and I said my premise was, if that's the case, it's too bloody high. +And my initial target then would be to say, look, what would we have to do to reduce that twenty nine percent to twenty percent? +Would it be get rid of one of Roger's clerks? +Get rid of Rachel? +Get rid of me? +Get rid of Nola? +But you know what, what would we want to do +You have to ask the questions +to bring that down? +don't you? +If you don't ask the question the charges will +Now that +just go up. +that is what I employ a business manager to do. +I mean maybe the money, a lot of, is it, is anything to do with the, not the staff costs, but in actual fact the C A D equipment we've bought? +No it's additional . +No it's not. +No. +This is pure staff. +It's got nothing to do with that. +This is +Yeah. +this is purely staff costs. +Purely staff costs. +Because there's er +So c +Well +I would suggest that is the action that we take. +Thank you for raising it but I think we should now get Trevor to er draw up er a report on, on, on what the make-up of the overheads on this organization is. +Erm what we get for the money, and erm where there are possibilities for us to consider reducing that overhead. +Mm. +And we might not like what we see. +But we might on the other hand. +And it might be like . +And be pretty sure we're not as efficient as we sh as we should be and I'm not just talking about +I mean apart from costs +our own offices. +the administration +I think the drive next year there ought to be a theme. +Sorry ca can we just let this ? +Part of the cost cos we divide the charge of the into our organization on a staff number basis for admin charges, typing services, +Mhm. +we get a share of the typing services, or the, the print unit . +Mhm. +Our organization doesn't actually use it. +Don't use it. +Yeah. +So what we're doing is we then send them this, why don't we pass it out to the other piece of the group? +Mhm. +This is really their share back again. +But that admin charge it would ge get charged from Intercity East Coast. +If we weren't there, the plan print room would still cost the same amount of money. +It wouldn't +I see. +cost us because +Yeah. +So effectively we're paying, whilst we never use the typing pool or the plan print room, we're paying a proportion of those costs on a per capita basis +That's it. +and then passing those back to you. +And the typists. +Yes. +Well look. +Let us, let us see what it is +I could manage that +Mm. +l let's get it transparent. +Let's get it on +Put it on the table. +Yeah. +the table, and see what the build up of th of the ov +overall overhead on this organization is, and whether there are areas that we could er th that we could change. +I mean we could rejig things and charge sort of sixty or seventy percent of Rachel's time against the graduates and then charge that back off +It doesn't . +against the people that use the graduates. +But, but you're not reducing the overhead on the organization. +No you're not you're ju you're +just moving it around a a and just makes it more acceptable +And that's not the object of the exercise. +to Jim and less acceptable +Yeah. +to Roger and Terry. +I've had to turn half of one of my clerks over to fee earning work. +But I did it deliberately because the +Mm. +I didn't have enough work for three clerks. +Absolutely. +I +But I don't, but I can't manage +Mm. +with just two. +That's the problem. +When you've small numbers you get into difficulties +of + +and they said it was going on and they were pleased with it +Right well what is the, I'm not quite actually clear what're they doing for us? +So you didn't all have a stroll out there and have a look at it then? +No, unfortunately I missed part of the evening and I don't know whether they had done that previously but when I was there they didn't do it, no. +The only one I would mention Chairman is not strictly accurate, we all did, lots of us anyway, the, the British Legion service on Sunday at the church and I just wondered if we could agree to send a letter to the president cos once again a lot of effort and time and organization went into it and I thought it was an excellent occasion and I think he might appreciate +Fine +he should be thanked for organizing it on behalf of the Council. +Well, he will be sending us a bill, I can pop it in when we get the bill +I can assure you that I did and I can assure you that I have already thanked him on behalf of the Council, shook his hand and said how well he done it, but if you'd like a letter to go to say how well he done it, then I'll send a letter telling him how well he done it. +He always sends us a bill +Well, I think he should have a letter anyway, definitely thanking him cos I mean he did like +I suggest after we get the bill else it'll it went up last year +Right, I just thought the Chair would like to thank Councillor for the immense amount of work I know that he's been putting in over certain things that have been going on lately and I now take councillors' questions if any of you got any for me. +Thank you . +Erm, I would like to close by saying that erm I just thought it would be just a nice idea that I would invite any of you members of the Council and wives who haven't got anything else to do on Christmas morning, if you fancy popping up to my house for a glass of sherry or whatever, just on a casual basis as a little thank you for what you've done over the erm over the last twelve months, I extend that invitation to you all and District Councillors if they wish to come and I would like to say, on behalf of the Council, that I hope you all have a, this is the last full meeting, and to everybody here I hope you have a very nice happy peaceful Christmas and I hope we all go into the new year with renewed vigour. +Chairman I do have a couple of questions, I do have a couple of questions if I may. +Oh, sorry. +I thought you'd done that. +Very quickly, audit report, audit report, do we have anything on that yet? +Not yet. +Erm, well we it's been accepted and I was, I was something over and the lady was horrified. +I'm awfully sorry about it +That's good. +And the other one, I wonder if the Council would consider, over sixties club, I ought to declare an interest I suppose, erm have two hundred members and they are distributing this Christmas, as they al always do, a three pound voucher to each of those members in office you know and I just wondered whether the Council would consider a small contribution towards that expenditure. +We do obviously make grants to youth clubs and organizations. +We've never made a contribution to this club. +I w +Perhaps you'd like to talk to somebody a before the branch meeting. +If that comes in I don't think I could take it in +Oh no, no I'd +Could it be referred to the grant first? +Could we get something from them? +Well it's up, you know, all I was asking +I was just querying you said you, you when you said is they're issuing three pound to each member? +Three pound voucher, er well not voucher no, erm box of groceries +Yes, that's right +Do you get one? +You don't get one do you? +My wife was embarrassed today yes +You what +Someone called her up yeah +I'll make a note of that one +Well well +Well, it's nice to end the year in such good humour. +Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for all for your attendance. +I'm sorry about that Mr Chairman but er I don't know if that's correct. +Well just have a look and see if you think it alright +Yeah, fine +Could you phone in the morning +Yes +as well as? +Yes +says it would be we could get his opinion on why the +Yeah, I know him quite well +It appears to be that it's off the rails +Finances, I think they're well up on that sort of thing +Oh yes, they're very well up financially +that our total spending is still nought nought nought +Nought nought nought +It was indeed +Could we just ask +I'll fill it in +Oh oh I'm not +Eighty eight +Yes, it's on the set you've got, it's there +Well I'll, I'll read it out to you and then you can amend them. +On the official ones it was resolved totalling four one two five and sixty pence for October and six hundred and seventy one twenty five for the T I C. +Can I just explain why that was? +The books were at the auditors and I didn't want to hold up the minutes and, as you'd all mostly seen them anyway, I felt that perhaps I could let them go. +It does help with our twelve month projection if we haven't spent anything +It makes you much closer to budget +Thank you for bringing that up. +With that erm with that exception can I sign the minutes? +Agreed. +Thank you +Move on then to matters arising, item four, number one,one three four, uses for the old hospital. +Erm, you will remember that after the last meeting we were going to have a meeting with Mr which we, which we subsequently did have and we put forward several erm possible uses for the old hospital, including re-siting of the library, relocation of the council offices, police station, day centre for the elderly, day services for the physically disabled, for young mothers and children centre and for a mental health services centre and he was delighted that we had the meeting because he has to meet with his superiors late in December, early January, when he has been asked to put forward ideas. +They are considering now short-term leases rather than sell on the market as it is at the present, and they are including the clinic in the buildings for which they are looking for alternative uses. +So I think we er await further developments on that. +Erm, item two one three four an update from Councillor . +It's been overtaken by events in that you have apparently had an application in and that's being studied, when, next Monday? +Yes, it'll come up on Monday next erm, no Monday fortnight, yes, twentieth. +There is a planning application in for thirty four flats, that will include converting into flats as well. +Right, there's not a lot more we can say until that +At this stage we can't, but it will come before the Council on the twentieth. +Let's make certain this time, nevertheless, Chairman, that this Council does spell out very thoroughly reasons for objection, if they wish to object, and not missing anything out +I think we always have actually. +This is a new a +I take your point and that will be looked at, thank you. +Right, item three one three four footpaths. +It was my pleasure to chair a meeting between all interested parties at village hall. +Erm, having been told that the County Council were running the meeting, I did find it a little difficult to chair, but I do think that we've come out of it with some constructive ideas. +Erm, perhaps the Town Clerk would like to comment further as a er developments as you see them. +Well it was a very successful meeting. +I mean, considering there are only about five hundred people in there were just on forty people present in the room which is quite a good average or percentage of them and er a lot of the questions were quite positive and the Chairman sort of took them, there were one or two people there who obviously erm wanted to have everything either exactly as it was or whatever, but it looked very much from the conversation that I had with the ramblers afterwards that in large part this scheme could be accepted. +Erm, the only area that I found that er there was a particular wish to keep was the road le was the path leading down from down to itself. +They really don't seem to want to have that part closed off but that part along by the river and that seemed to be almost entirely er satisfactory to everybody and er Chairman fenced off one or two other people quite well. +One of the warmer meetings I've done but th I think that we did come out in the end with all bar four people in the room, I believe that's right Councillor is it? +Four was it? +Er, the vast majority seemed to be generally in favour of the package and it was a small number that did seem to me. +I think that puts it fairly well in er perspective and hopefully now the County Council will come up with the er d . +Erm, it shouldn't, it should be noted that the er land owners are prepared to pay for a fairly expensive footbridge on their land to cure the problem and er I hope that this Council's initiatives follow through and a twenty five year old problem gets cured. +Thank you Chairman and Town Clerk and Councillors for attending that meeting because this has been a problem here for so long that I think all of us would be delighted to see it resolved to the er satisfaction of the local residents. +Right, item four, folio eighty five, one three five working party. +I agree with the Town Clerk. +He feels it's time we actually set up a working party. +Well unfortunately we were scheduled to have a meeting erm something like ten days ago and then two or three of the key people had to drop out so I cancelled the meeting because obviously we want the people there who were going to actually get the thing up and running so that we can formulate a first public meeting and I would like erm, you know, now, to establish a working party but again a number of the people who one would expect to be on it are not here and it's slightly awkward. +I know Councillor is quite happy to be on it, I would hope that Councillor is. +Yeah +How many do you want on it? +I want at least five and I just wanted to erm establish that with one or two other people who er presently attend the tourism meetings are invited as required, rather than to every meeting. +Er, how can we take this forward? +Er, I presume we, we actually know that and are on it. +will be on it automatically. +Erm, you were thinking +Ya +two others? +Ya +And then coopt as they +As we need +Correct +ya +Wh anybody with a bursting ambition and desire to be on the working party? +Or will it be another one that I have to join in with? +Oh well and a volunteer +will volunteer if they're not keeping anyone else away from things. +Wonderful, there we are. +I'll establish a first meeting as soon as I can. +The odd name there with a familiar ring to it I fancy. +However, we move on. +Item five folio eighty six one three five public seats, an update. +Well, I've circulated the letter that I got from . +I don't agree with it because there are certainly seats there which are their responsibility which are not on this list, particularly around this memorial outside and places like that and erm quite categorically they're theirs. +What I would like is for all the Councillors to look at this, to advise me which other seats they think are indeed the responsibility of and then I'll go back and go to battle but er I'd like everybody's views on which ones they believe they are so that I can do it firmly. +Erm, has had chance to cast his eye over that list? +No. +Well if we could send that with the amenities and perhaps if they've got any, we can't say that er, I view this as very much, we've, we've got a platform here. +They've accepted the responsibility for a number of seats. +If we can get a few more accepted under their responsibility so be it. +There's the old seat up that they seem to discard but that's the last old seat of Council, the old fashioned seat. +You couldn't find that one , could you? +Yes, it's there +It's responsibility +Councillor , good evening. +Chairman, good evening gentlemen. +There is a seat by our place which Council have always maintained. +It's not on this list. +Right well we'll include that one then. +If you could let me have these in writing it would make life easier +How do you know they haven't maintained it? +Could you just drop a note in to the Town Clerk as to where that is? +I appreciate what you say but we wanna +It's over the road just beyond our +Well I'll leave you to liaison with that +Right +Fine, thank you for that. +That's progress. +Eighty six one three five level crossing gates. +I'd just like to say a doesn't it look wonderful, the one gate we've done a I saw a I saw a train coming last week +However, the problem is that Mr is not keen, I think it's been a labour of love doing the one, he's not keen to do the other one. +He says he doesn't feel that he can do it, does he ? +I wrote and thanked him on behalf of the Council for what he'd done but it's now a question of finding somebody who can match it. +So at least now we've got a specification to go to,w we know what it looks like and er we've had one or two quotes in the past week and for firmed those up now and chosen exactly what we want them to do. +I mean before it was a little bit difficult to describe exactly what we wanted. +He's certainly done a, a very good job on that one, it's very +Mhm, I'm delighted we've done that +We'd really like the other one done by the tourist season because it's the sort of thing to send people to look at +Is it? +Well, compared to some of the other things that are supposed to be tourist attractions +come and look at the gates sub- contract planning committee which has already had a look at that +That's right yes +You agree that the contract sub-committee looks at that d rather than the Council? +All agreed? +Thank you. +Right number seven folio eighty eight one four six policing update. +Successful I think, the phone's going in downstairs today, is that right +It's er, the box is there, it's just gotta be the actual phone unit's gotta be put in +Right +It's all wired up in the back as well. +And I will, although he's here, thank him in front of him, moving mountains to make sure we get an increased police presence in . +I'm delighted to say that we're gonna have w what, a unit based in here, isn't it? +Section. +A section. +The best thing I can do, with your permission, Council, is invite Inspector to talk about what we're gonna do for er er a police section in . +Have I got your permission? +Yes of course +Yes. +Agree with that? +Yes +Seconded? +Alright, thank you,. +Two points that I wish to update the Council on. +The Chairman's already er done the first which is the box outside. +I know that wishes to take a photograph of the Chairman and myself on Wednesday +You won't both get in it together. +standing in front of the box +It won't be picture, will it? +But of course it is important that the box is er in operational use before such a photograph is taken, so I will endeavour tomorrow to er to resolve the situation of actually putting the phones in the box so that er by the time Wednesday comes, and our photograph, then it is up and running as they say. +The other thing that I wish to update the Council on is my deliberations in respect of establishing a section here at . +Now, as a background to that, I actually had one of my officers at undertake research of the in to establish what the demands were made upon us from th the section which includes at the present time. +Erm, she actually traced back calls on the station log and it was done from the first of October nineteen ninety two to the thirtieth of September nineteen ninety three and during that time we had over five thousand three hundred and thirty calls, of which one thousand one hundred and sixty six originated from , so that is erm twenty point three percent of the calls received at police station and were held on came from , which is quite a lot. +True true +I therefore worked on the premise that if, if a fifth of our work comes from then it must be right to have approximately a fifth of our staff based in +Hear hear +At the present time I have in a total of fourteen patrol constables and two community constables and, as you are aware, I have two community constables here in , and . +My proposal, and er notice I have in my hand a final draft which will be submitted later this week for approval by headquarters. +My proposal is that we establish a section of four constables here in . +Now that I propose will be achieved by the use of the two existing community constables and transferring two officers from to . +The review that we undertook of the calls shows that the peak demands in are between eight A M and twelve midnight, so the four officers will work a sixteen hour duty scheme er of eight till four, four til midnight, and then the cover between midnight and A M will come fr eight A M will come from as it does at present. +By having four officers here it means that they will be able to man the police car for those shifts seven days a week and in addition there will be one spare constable on every day except for Sunday either to cover deficiencies in that crewing or carry out er foot patrol or enquiries within the town. +Now, my proposal is that this section is established on the seventeenth of January nineteen ninety four. +Certainly Superintendent , who is my immediate senior officer, is very supportive of this proposition. +I am aware that the Chief Superintendent in , Superintendent , Chief Superintendent is also supportive of the idea. +So I would anticipate that my proposals will receive favourable consideration from headquarters. +So hopefully by the erm, I should be in a position by the next Council meeting, to report that we should be in a position to be up and running on the seventeenth of January. +The problems er that face me accommodation have been overcome with the assistance of the Chairman and the Town Clerk ah and we have been offered additional accommodation here in the Council offices, which is most welcome. +Erm, there is one slight technical problem which I have to overcome in relation to a computer terminal but I'll erm face that problem at if and when that situation develops. +Hopefully then er on that date, as I say, we should have a fully fledged section here in . +The other thing which I feel is important is that the section is supervised. +There are two ways that it can be done, either by a sergeant at being totally er dedicated to the policing of . +The disadvantage is that he would be based at and he would still be working a twenty four hour shift system at . +The preferable proposal is that a sergeant is redeployed from from another town in and er I won't mention where I have my beady eye +I could get myself into trouble with a colleague of yours in another town but er I am hopeful, so as I say, er on the seventeenth of January then we could be returning to the situation and I understand in nineteen seventy four when there was a sergeant and six constables here in until the demise of the Urban District Council when they were all moved to . +Twenty years later my plan is to move most of them back again. +Well done. +Thank you ever so much for that. +I've moved back into and er I'd just like to say I'm sure on behalf of all of you and the people of that we see this as a tremendous move and thank you for the work you've put in. +Er, I've been fortunate enough to share in some of that work with you and I know how much work's been involved. +At the annual meeting, the annual meeting last year in the institute, it was obvious to me that one of the major concerns of people in this town was policing and police presence and I think the joint effort that we've put forward, and I must mention as well since he's, we've worked very well together, the police liaison office has been running extremely well I feel, the number of calls have gone up since we started. +I would just like to say that I see this as an absolute benefit to and look forward to us working together in the future . +Thanks very much. +Hear hear +Chairman, I would just like to add that er you and the Town Clerk are to be congratulated on this achievement +Yes, yes +and it should be recorded. +Thank you. +Thank you Councillor , that's very nice of you. +Right, well +Can I just make one point? +Yes +I think the fax would still be a highly useful element between us. +I mean, that door is always open for you so there's no reason why we can't continue. +I pumped one through today on something lost and it does give you an immediate link to , a written link. +I would see no change to the exiting +No +police liaison arrangement. +good, okay. +I would just say that what we've done, we looked at the hospital, we looked at the youth building and at the moment we've come up with the idea of the s the back room, the second room across the corridor, erm where we actually store some of the T I C books and pamphlets. +It is gonna be the second room for the police and by moving one door we can put their two rooms together and you've got access to the toilets, cloakrooms and all the necessary things, so without very much expenditure at all on anybody's back, we've actually created the section within this building. +And so we've got our public part, our telephone, our fax machine, all through to the police, and now we're basing the car here. +And so we've, now, you know, in these times when you get tied up in red tape and bureaucratic mess everywhere the speed at which has achieved this is admirable and I do really thank you for that. +Hear hear +? +Right, now we've reached item eight under matters arising. +Thank you I know you've and I'm gonna vacate the chair now and let deal with . +Right? +Erm, no. +That one. +I'll let you know +Right, ladies and gentlemen, fellow Councillors. +Erm, we now move on to item eight appendix two and it's in matters arising regarding the estate. +update the Chairman, I believe that the man who's major in this is Councillor who's now, as I understand, got a dispensation from the D O E. +Is that correct Councillors? +That indeed is correct +Would you like to, to give us an update on that please? +Thank you very much. +Erm, I've written it out here if I may read it. +It's the first occasion in fact on which I've been permitted to speak at any meeting dealing with this application. +The D O E has authorized me to do so, but not to vote. +I need hardly say I have found it difficult to hold my tongue on so important a matter over the last eighteen months. +The latest situation is County Highways have recommended refusal. +The Town Council, of which you are very aware, in a very detailed submission written by the Town Clerk, recommended refusal. +All four District Councillors have written in and recommended refusal. +County Councillor, Councillor on my right, I think is to be congratulated on the work he has done with County Highways on our behalf, and has written to District Council recommending refusal. +The public have written thirty letters, representing about a thousand people, living in all corners of have written and recommended refusal. +There have been no letters of support. +The applicant has consistently, in three applications,t to develop this site, omitted to include a link road from the site into Lane, a road required by a policy statement in the statutory town plan. +A policy that quite clearly states, in plain English,without a link road there shall be no development of this site . +In nineteen seventy, if I take you back to twenty three years ago, County recorded in the outline development plan the following and I quote growth in the town not accompanied by measures to alleviate the traffic problems in the existing road network would merely add to the deterioration in the quality of the environment in the town and without such measures no further expansion is environmentally acceptable unquote. +In the past twenty years the population of this town has almost doubled and the number of cars using the roads has trebled, making that quote much much more topical. +A further quote, if I may, from the same document in association with the construction in a link road between the site and Lane shall be provided and the Lane Road junction closed unquote. +That is a comment twenty years ago regarding the most dangerous crossroads in , Hill. +The amount of traffic using Hill and Street is destroying, in my opinion, and polluting the town. +The elderly are terrified to cross the road in what is the main shopping centre. +An elderly lady, this weekend actually,i it sounds funny but it's rather serious what she said actually. +We are now buying ourselves white sticks that we don't really need to help us cross the road. +What a sad thing to have to say. +And this development if allowed, without a link road, will generate an additional estimated four hundred cars daily into the town centre. +There are other quotes but I will save these for my submission to District Council if needed on the fourth of January. +I'd heard it said that th the development of this site has been in the development plan for twenty years +Absolutely correct. +but I sh I, my opinion is the test we should apply when determining this application surely is, if we were today, nineteen ninety three, preparing a development plan for would we include in the plan this site for development? +The answer is an emphatic no, of course we wouldn't. +As you know, the application has been withdrawn from the agenda of the coastal planning committee twice in recent weeks. +I ask myself, is this delay in any way connected with the decision of the t the developer to appeal to the D O E against the previous refusal of this application? +You may wish to draw your own conclusions. +Especially when the applicant recently suggested, and I quote, we should not indulge in further procrastination in reaching an early decision on this application. +I ask that this impudent remark can only be far from being dilatory, we are being diligent in safeguarding the environment of and the quality of life of the people, and we are not merely interested in financial gain. +The fact remains, if this ev development is allowed, it will have an irreversible detrimental effect on the fiscal environment of the town centre and the amenities of the people for generations to come. +is being choked and polluted by the motor car, coming specially from large housing estates built on the wrong side of +Hear hear +requiring travel through the town centre, the town centre that was designed and built for horse-drawn traffic. +The development of this site in nineteen ninety three is unacceptable and must be not be approved. +We who live in know best and must be heard. +Now I can tell you a little, one final remark, I at five thirty this afternoon met Mr , Mr , Councillor , Councillor , Councillor at five thirty to discuss the delay in dealing with this application. +The delay was with the approval of District Council at the request of the developer, who asked for time to consider if Hill could be improved. +They agreed it will go before the District Council without change on the fourth of January, whatever the decision on County on the improvements, if there are any, to Hill. +And they've also agreed that any alteration of the plan will be referred back to this Council for their consideration. +Thank you . +Thank you Councillor . +Councillor ? +The Town Clerk's just pointed out that their tape recorder's run out and wondered if you would go back to the start and work through all that again. +It's a joke +But this is a very serious matter and difficult to follow Councillor because he's gone through nearly every point. +Er, there is just one crucial one I think that I'd like to refer to briefly. +What concerns me in particular is how District Council is handling this and I'll come back to that in a moment. +The only thing that didn't say was a letter from , Headmaster of the County Primary School. +He wrote to , Chief Engineering and Planning Officer. +I read with some concern that a housing development planned for the Valley is to disgorge its traffic on to the Road near the Hill Lane Lane crossroads. +Any increase in traffic at that already dangerous crossroads will, I feel, place my pupils at risk. +During the twelve years that I've been head teacher at this school I have waited for promised improvements at the crossroads, and in particular the Lane junction. +My P T A have re regularly voiced their concerns. +Now it appears that no improvements are in the pipeline but increased traffic is. +Surely this is prejudicial to all who regularly use the crossroads . +I think touches on er the thing that concerns me most about this +this before +Yes, we have. +Wh what I'd like to suggest, without going through it all again, is that perhaps we could agree to ask the Town Clerk to write to Planning Department and voice our concern at the way this matter is being handled. +I didn't want to go through the arguments for and against. +I think they've been discussed previously and I think the arguments for refusal are very clear cut. +As said, all the District Councillors are opposed to it, I'm opposed to it, and there's very clear cut Highways Authority reasons for refusing, but in spite of that District Council seems to be going out of its way to bend over backwards and, and help the, the applicants for some reason or another, presumably to get this thing through. +And a that surprises me and concerns me because when this went to District Council's Environment and Planning Committee first of all speed was of the essence. +I mean I, I enquired why it went to the District Council Environment and Planning Committee rather than the Coastal Planning Committee and the one reason I was told was speed, they could get the thing brought up there that much more quickly. +A couple of months ago they were pushing it through as quickly as possible. +It was shrouded in secrecy at that time. +It was held in with the present public excluded but now we seem to have a completely different situation. +The one thing that seems to be doing now is to string it out as long as possible. +The one thing they seem to be trying to do now is obfuscation and delay er and I think we ought to voice our concern and I hope the Council will agree to ask the Town Clerk to express concern at the way it's being handled. +Thank you Councillor . +I, I think you've gone through it now. +I see no reason for us actually to go through the whole pros and cons. +We've made our view quite clear. +I think the things that have come out of this for me er from Councillor actually is that it would be unlikely that we, we or would be allocating that plan today and I think the amount of traffic has increased through the town centre would make it foolish and one does wonder at the wisdom if all the development went along which had to be serviced then through er Street and through the town centre in to the main areas of employment that happened years ago. +Erm, the other point that I think we should be clear and we should remember, that this Council has still not wavered. +We have never gone away from the fact that the town plan and the policy statement in there that if the road was provided the land is in the town plan and this Council would have approved it. +I think it is important to remember that if they complied with the properly doc adopted and formulated town plan then the permission would have been granted, obviously subject to details and . +That has been our major worry and I think for us now to go away and just allow it to go ahead, twenty years on, without any improvements, without the link road and without improvements to Hill I think is an abdication of our duties and I really do think that. +Right, it's been suggested by Councillor that we write a letter to . +I think we should express our concern in the way that it's being handled and I think there are grounds for concern and I think must be aware that this Council is watching what they're doing. +I mean, we, it was very nearly went through had a meeting which had the press and public excluded and I think it was not handled well at that time from and we should make it quite clear that we are watching and hopefully we do understand the situation. +Now, how does anyone else feel about the situation? +Chairman, you, you may wish to, with the Council's approval, and your approval,Councillor wishes to make a short statement on this. +It might be useful. +Someone who again. +This is an unusual evening isn't it? +Twice in one evening. +, yes, agreed? +Just briefly, I have been correspondence right back erm it's difficult to see why that land was designated for land except that it's agricultural land and erm my point is that the gradient on a lot of the site, especially on the northern erm banks is one in five and one in seven and to build on that would erm well even said that the building would be imponderous so I mean i it just isn't a suitable site, apart from the link road, for, for housing either because the gradient there would, would be very erm difficult from a landscape point of view a there's nothing they could do to improve the till you know the turn of the century and they are and through all the planning papers from nineteen eighty five it is said that that Hill can't be improved so I mean unless they do something erm dramatic, I can't see what they can do, I mean it just isn't a suitable site for development. +Right, right. +Move back into Council? +I take it +Yes er no, I'm not taking the planning minutes. +I've got to take item, in a minute, item nine I believe. +Yes +Erm, is it your wish that we would write expressing our concern and would it be possible for us to erm delegate this to Councillor and the Town Clerk, with the Chairman of Planning obviously innit? +Would that be in order? +I think we should you know make it clear how we stand. +Okay? +Are we all agreed? +Okay?? +a personal statement or a Council statement +Absolutely yes yes. +This is a Council view. +So that's Councillor , Councillor , Town Clerk and the Chairman of Planning. +Okay? +Anyone against? +Okay. +Thank you very much. +Right, with that I'm gonna take you on if you're all agreed, and I think you've already agreed, some of you, most of you, that we go on to item nine. +I have to say to you I'd no idea I was doing this this evening so I'm gonna do everything and backup. +Right, we're d discussing District Council area wide plan. +Erm, many of you will realize that East Devon have been requested er by the Government to prepare these area wide plans rather than just a town plan so they take in and encompass the whole of the area and there was quite a lengthy and substantial document with the, with all the different policy statements on I believe Councillor ? +Thank you Chairman. +Eh eh well the district +Excuse me just one moment. +I beg your pardon. +I wonder could you agree that I signed appendix two? +I didn't do this at I didn't know +Yes, of course. +I'm sorry about that but I did it while was out. +Thank you. +Okay. +The district wide erm development plan will take the place of the individual town development plans. +Here is the first draft, a hundred and forty three pages of it. +It's a draft document that will be in fact circulated to Town Councils for their opinion and also will have dis on display to the public in the near future. +is in section page one one one. +It was discussed in detail in a five hour meeting at District Council and after, as I say, remember, it's only a consultation document this time that will be put to you for your decision. +I asked that in section fifteen should include, which it doesn't at the moment, the following matters. +I asked that the link road from to Lane, which had been omitted, should be included in the town plan and Councillor has written on that matter to District Council and they agreed that it should be. +It has not yet been taken out in the statutory town development plan. +My goodness +I note that County are preparing a town centre enhancement scheme which they are doing where there's a conflict clearly between the traffic and the pedestrian. +That enhancement scheme is being prepared now and reference should be made to it in this document in respect of. +The need for an open space, public open space east of the town. +That is not included. +Policy statements in respect of are fine, Hill, and the prime shopping centre and Lane should be r repeated in the new plan. +They've been omitted. +There should be reference to the social housing and the cross subsidy housing and the hospital at in the new plan. +The plan will be operative from nineteen ninety four to the year two thousand and one. +That's what we're talking about. +between now and two thousand and one, so we've gotta get these things in. +The need for a pedestrian link between school and the . +I asked that these, all these matters should be put in and it was agreed. +So when it comes before the Council I will let the Town Clerk have this and then it's important that, if the Council agrees, they should be included. +Development of a public amenity area in a vicinity and including the formed when the flood alleviation scheme is constructed. +This could be delightful. +Development of a route to and to dev develop that site as an important town amenity. +Continued development and improvement of picnic site should be included. +Implementation of the approved resolution on the Coastal Planning Committee, this is an interesting one that they've totally forgotten, implementation of the approved resolution of a Coastal Planning Committee district on the twenty seventh of January that the highway implications which affect the development of the area marked W in the inset plan in fact is . +It shall be reassessed as part of the district wide local plan. +Would you believe it? +And that was approved on the twenty seventh of January ninety three and nothing has happened about it since. +The removal of all . +Inclusion of lev eleven acres of land at school in the district wide development plan if we, as we hope, is taken out. +All of those matters have been omitted. +I asked that all of them should be put in. +We'll wait and see when the second draft comes to this Council, when the Council will discuss my points and agree or disagree that they should be included or not. +Thank you gentlemen. +Well I would think the Council would be delighted to have those details in front of it for us to have a full discussion and to make it known but thank you Councillor for all those details. +It just shows, I think, how vigilant Councillors need to be when you get all these documents, and you do get many of them if you're a District County Councillor, and how necessary it is for you to read them and study them and to remember because these things are very very important when they're put in when it goes to higher authority at that time. +Right, is there anyone else would like to ask anything on the district wide plan to Councillor at this stage? +No. +So we just ask that these come forward so that the Council can fully discuss this and make our replies to before they're formally adopted? +Right. +Well, with that, I thank you for my very short er stay in the Chair and er with your agreement we'll ask the Chairman to return. +Okay, thank you very much +Both together please +Have you got any traffic lights? +Did you find the draft? +Move on to item five on the agenda of the preceding minutes, the planning committee meetings are on Monday the eighth of November and the twenty ninth of November. +I presume we've all got a second now, have you? +I would like to present them in the absence of both the Chairman and the Vice Chairman of planning so is it your wish that I sign both sets as a true and correct record? +Chairman, there's just one little point that I did speak to the Town Clerk and I think the Council should be aware of it. +On er folio ninety er regarding Mr agricultural dwelling at . +On the first one, folio ninety? +Folio ninety. +Erm I did say at the time if the Council agreed it was we would approve the new application it would only be if the original was rescinded and I did speak to the Town Clerk so there's no need, I'm not making a big issue, but I think the Council should be aware and the Town Clerk I believe has notified because again this is one of those things that could happen at a later date and as we all know if we haven't made these things perfectly clear. +With that amendment, is everybody happy that the minutes are signed? +Yes, I've got some questions after though. +Okay, that's ninety, ninety one and ninety two, ninety three. +Okay, let's take the er, I'll do my best to answer 'em cos I'm not right, let's take the meeting on the eighth of November. +Any questions on that meeting? +Any matters arising from that meeting? +Yes Chairman. +You might have to leave the room again . +No, I'm erm, I'm quite happy +Correspondence folio ninety, land at school. +Oh. +Right. +Erm +your prerogative. +Er, yeah, I'm just gonna be safe. +I'm gonna, you can chair it from there but I'm gonna do it just to be safe. +That's the only one. +The remainder doesn't matter. +Okay, thanks +Thank you very much . +Erm, folio ninety, land at School. +Correspondence, if you'd all refer to that at the moment actually. +In the last sentence erm my view is that we should not wait for an application to build on this site. +If it is not included in the district wide local plan for development there can be no development of this site before the year two thousand and one. +And I would recommend in fact that action on that should be we ought to visit the site, there's a splendid map I think you've all had, you had in a letter, you had in a letter from a developer to have a look at this map and, and the sites they're talking about actually. +Consider the points made in the letter and if the Council agree in principle it's, it's a suitable site for development, advise District Council now that it should be considered for inclusion in the district wide plan now being drawn up. +That was one of my points just now actually. +It is level, it's available, the developer may provide a, an amenity area, it says so in the letter anyway, for the town, and a route across the river to . +We've gotta plan ahead and give District Council our views and not wait. +It will be too late. +It's gotta go in there. +Yes, thank you, I thank Councillor , thank you for that valid . +You will recall, and it is in the the client was asked to obtain clarification on their proposals for an improved . +There was an offer in the letter if my memory's correct but it didn't actually specify what their offer was and really I think what the Council want to do is exactly what they are offering because we have to be minded all the time that the that er applicant does not own all the land and, and certainly it is, is, is the wish I think of this Council, I believe unanimously, and, and I think a lot of the residents, that we do somehow acquire a pedestrian link. +It would be something that would vastly improve I think the, the link of the new hospital to the medical centre without going around over Bridge. +It really is something that I would like to see us achieve in the future and if this can be brought forward by meeting the developer down there, then I would be, certainly be in favour of that and I would certainly like, and this is what we said at this meeting, to find out a little more detail of exactly what they were offering but we have to be minded all the time, as I said again, is how we're going to acquire permission to go over one or two different land owners' lands. +That's the, that's the point yes +That will be the difficulty +That will be the difficulty +Has the developer responded to that letter by the way? +It went off only a couple of days after the meeting. +Well we may need a, a, a further letter now. +Whether the Council I, I personally would be quite keen to go down there and see A, and we'd need permission of the land owners, to do this, to see where the link could go across, you know, the best position, so that we, and I believe this is what Councillor is saying, so that we can actually come forward and maybe this ought to be a meeting with the Amenities Committee, maybe the Ramblers and bear in mind as I say again I hate to do these things and the land owner think we're steamrollering 'em into something without their knowledge. +I think if you get their backs up before you've even started, it's not a helpful situation is it ? +But I would very much, with the land owners, like to go down there and see and, and then try and negotiate a possibility for right of way across +Yes, I, I think could be approached at this stage. +I mean feelings on the matter. +If we help the developer, it's wrong to put a path if the other fella's not gonna cooperate. +Absolutely +We do want it in there Chairman. +Would it be a situation if we asked the Town Clerk and er maybe with the Chairman, it's a little bit difficult, I think the Town Clerk at this stage, to speak to and then if it seems possible we could bring it up at the Planning Committee meeting and arrange a date to go down and have a look, when we've actually approached the land owners. +I would hate to do it the other way. +Do we have a lot of time? +Does it say +Ya +Do you think it might be an idea to speak to the er to first and get their resp so I've got their response I think you +Well it's and +So that they really mean they're going to do that and then to +Mhm +I think it would be nice, and then we could actually discuss it at the next planning meeting which I presume, which is the twentieth +Twentieth yes +Ah ah ah the twentieth fairly big date. +I mean, it would be grand for wouldn't +Okay. +Alright. +So we're definitely agreed that we ask the Town Clerk to make those two contacts and to put it on the agenda for the Planning Committee? +Would it prudent for me to consider both sets of minutes rather than us get into difficulty? +Can I, yeah, can I go on to the application if I may Chairman? +I mean it's obvious that +I, I was not present, I was not present but the committee itself, and regrettably the Chairman's not here either, of the Planning Committee erm itself got into some difficulty by accepting and voting on a proposal to approve the application subject to the provision of a suitable link road. +You cannot, and I, I, I know Councillor and Alderman erm have said this many times, you cannot vote on something not before you. +No +You can, you can only vote on the application before you. +In this case, you can vote on the application without a link road. +The Chairman in fact should have a point of procedural rule not to accept the resolution er before you. +Erm eventually you've got refusing it but you I imagine you've got yourself in some difficulty f one further point on this I note you had a section on these minutes. +I note you've got a site inspection on the hockey club room but not for the eighty seven houses that may affect for generations, I E . +I am a little surprised that the Planning Committee decided to go to look at the hockey club but not eighty seven houses in . +Thank you . +Yes well I think to answer bo both of yo your concerns, first of all we have to accept that the Planning Committee has, actually has power to make its decisions not to come back to this Council so I'm afraid it is a decision of the Planning Committee. +The Chairman at that time decided t to take the motion and proposition and it was against my advice. +I actually advised him at the meeting that he should not and couldn't take that motion, and I was by Alderman in that situation, but he still deemed to go ahead and that's p his prerogative. +He is, after all, the Chairman of that committee but certainly I advised him against that and I thought it was totally wrong er to do it in the way he did and I, I think it was a shame for this Council that he, that he did go ahead, but there you are. +That's to answer that situation. +I believe that er we didn't er consider going to look at the development because it was quite clearly in the minds of a large percentage of us that it was contrary to the town plan and so we did not think it was necessary to do that. +We did, however, feel it was necessary to go and look at the because we are very aware of, of, of the lighting that affects those properties who've been very patient with the amount of development that's gone on there. +I thought that it was very polite that we should go there in the evening and assess for ourselves exactly the harm th the possible harm that it could do to their gardens at the back and and that's why we did that. +Thank you Chairman. +And indeed Chairman in taking account of those concerns, we did add er a couple of conditions +Yes we did. +we, we recommended approval subject to conditions and one of those was +extra +to alleviate the problem of the lighting to nearby properties +I think +Right. +Erm, are there any other matters? +And I think we we should do all the planning, don't you? +On, then we're gonna need to accept that folios ninety two and ninety three are a correct record? +Is that all agreed? +Yes +Anyone against? +No? +Are there any matters arising from the minutes of November the twenty ninth? +No? +And with that I think that covers the planning meetings. +Thank you very much +This is a funny meeting, isn't it? +Thank you very much +I didn't realize it would be quite as tricky as this +If it had have been, if we'd have known we'd have pulled the tables further, pulled the tables further across that way. +Right . +You'll have to tell me if I cover anything that you've already done. +I think that's very wise. +Item six County Council and County Council's reports. +I'd like to thank and, I'd like it minuted that I'd like to thank, our Councillors and County Council Councillors because they are getting the reports in now. +We are able to circulate these reports and I think that's working extremely well. +Has anybody got any questions of the reports from our Councillors? +I think Councillor , County Councillor , should refer to the jet out the culvert, there's not a culvert, that's two pipes that takes the water, overflow water across the . +The road gets flooded when there's heavy rain and I er I clean it out. +I don't want to give the impression that's a road that'll never be flooded again. +Quiet people, thank you. +Did everybody hear what said? +No, afraid not. +Right, let's try and talk one at a time now. +Can you just say it again please? +I just, Councillor says about cleaning out the culvert. +It's not a culvert it's two pipes that takes the water in ordinary times, ordinary river level, across the road but if there is heavy rain the ford, you'll find that the ford will be always flooded so er it won't be alleviating th the flooding of the, of that part of the road. +I'm sure Councillor will take that on board. +Yes okay. +I've got one comment. +I'm extremely sad to see that the price for glass has gone down by five pounds a ton which results in the er the income from the recycling of glass being halved. +It shows what we've been saying for a long time, how fragile the markets in this recycling are, and I still stick to what I've thought all along, that marketing comes first and making the product comes second. +Clearly that hasn't been the case. +I hope that this gets back on the road because clearly people are starting to put things in the proper places for recycling. +Can we just mention there that we did have a problem at the weekend with the paper banks again. +I meant to say that to you. +There was paper all over the car park again. +Okay, anybody got anything of any other reports? +Chairman, I, I've got one here actually. +I wonder if you would take up this idea of the family tree for generations +It is an item a bit further down +Oh, is it? +Yeah +I can tell you I've seen the video. +It really is appalling to see and thank goodness it's in black and white, it's not in colour but +I'll share that view yes. +I'm actually, I am actually, I've been party, they've been circulating me with the correspondence of the residents' association and I am very worried about this but don't feel, until invited by the residents' association, that we should do any more. +Oh no, no, it's District +Clearly, clearly, the survey couldn't be carried on in very many parts of the sewer because the pipes are in such bad condition. +So, we await developments on that. +Well I've now, er I've now arranged a further meeting with Environment Health District Council and the residents' association. +Thank you for that . +Thank you. +Right, any other questions on the Councillors' reports? +I think it's proof that they're and well written. +Thank you for that. + +probably are aware of in any event is that there is a facility for sandwiches laid on and I I think you've all been told about it. +Er if you want to take er use of that facility then if you haven't done so you'd better do so fairly quickly. +Now I today we are going to look at er I five and I twelve which deal with employment land allocations +office space and services. +The matters for discussion are s spelt out but just so that you're under no illusions to what we are aiming to talk about, first issue, first matter is is the proposed provision and distribution of employment land for district councils and Greater York, the reason bearing in mind the need to provide sufficient land for employment in appropriate locations and the second matter is what effect if any will the proposed scale on provision have on adjoining areas in West Yorkshire. +But we'll start quite logically with the first matter. +I would ask Mr Williamson, I presume you you're leading for the County Council today to er take us through I five and I twelve. +Mr Williamson. +Thank you Chair. +Could I just say before I start, I apologize in advance while I'm on the air if there there are any inadvertent s coughs and little bit of a cold don't want to deafen anybody while er the volume was up. +Gentlemen, er Ken Williamson, North Yorkshire County Council. +In establishing its parameters for employment land provision of county in its eight constituent districts, the County Council's intention has been to sustain and improve the economic wellbeing of the county by ensuring that continuous supply and a wide choice of sites can be made available. +The aim has been to ensure as far as possible employment opportunities are not lost or unduly constrained simply because there is a shortage of suitable sites. +Such an approach is in the County Council's view, entirely consistent with government policy +as set out in Planning Policy Guidance Notes, particularly in P P Gs four and twelve. +Forecasting employment land requirements over a period of fifteen years is of course a difficult exercise at any time. +The current exercise has been no exception and the task has not been made any easier by the current level of economic uncertainty and its implications for the future size and structure of employment and unemployment at the end of the plan period. +In the circumstances, the County Council has sought to provide district councils with as much flexibility as possible in allocating sufficient land and to ensure that local plan preparation is not unduly constrained by an unrealistically low . +Formulating these proposals, the County Council's avoided placing undue reliance on a purely technical approach to forecasting future land requirements. +Such an approach is considered to be increasingly unreliable and subject to significant variations depending upon the assumptions made. +The County Council's has op has opted instead to base its proposals on a wider ranging assessment which, while not discounting economic activity based projections, gives greater weight to levels and rates of land take-up, as well as knowledge of the structure and strengths and weaknesses of the local economy. +The County Council believes this approach represents the most appropriate way forward in assessing long term employment land requirements. +It provides district councils with a generous allocation , but not so generous in the County Council's view as to prejudice the counc the county's interests and by sterilizing land which is unlikely to be taken up or by promoting without due regard to the consequences for housing and services. +Nor does the County Council believe that it will have any noticeable effect on the objectives of the adjoining authority in West Yorkshire. +has the full support of six of the eight North Yorkshire district councils. +Five districts Craven, Hambleton, Ryedale, Scarborough and York, the approach is sections of the local community including significantly the industrial and commercial organizations in these areas. +Certainly representations have been made er which express any disagreement with the proposals in in those areas. +In Richmondshire there are differences between the County Council and the District Council on the appropriate scale of employment provision amounting to about ten hectares. +In Harrogate District two opposing views have been expressed, Harrogate Civic Society seeking a reduction in the allocation by at least we think of er something in the order of ten hectares, David Lock and Associates expressing the view that at least a hundred, a hundred plus a hectares should be allocated. +The County Council does not however believe there is a justifiable case for moving towards any of the different positions sought by these objectors. +As far as the Greater York area is concerned, objections have been lodged by Leeds City Council and by Montague Evans on behalf of a group of parish councils in Selby District adjoining York. +Both consider the proposed scale of allocations to be excessive. +The County Council not unexpectedly er does not agree with either submission. +The allocation to Greater York has in fact been derived by extensive joint working between the County Council and the five Greater York districts. +The Greater York authorities are satisfied that a hundred and forty five hectares represents an appropriate overall land allocation for the area in the context of its sub- regional importance as an employment centre, a need for greater flexibility in terms of providing land for new industrial and commercial uses, the relocation requirements of existing firms, the amount of land already committed and the opportunities for employment related development identified through the Greater York study. +In respect of the proposals for Selby District, the County Council recognizes that the district has a particularly narrow economic base. +It is very heavily dependent on jobs in the primary sectors, agriculture, coal mining and power generation, all of which are currently undergoing significant and extensive structural changes and rationalization. +This has undoubtedly experienced si significant rise in unemployment. +Nevertheless, the County Council believes it has gone as far as its possibly can to recognize and respond to the district's problems, and that it cannot justify moving any closer in reducing the gap between the recommended allocation of a hundred and thirty two hectares and the two hundred to two hundred and fifty hectares which are requested the District Council. +Other objectors to the County Council's proposals, namely Leeds Council, Montague Evans and J C Cunnane, believe that they already represent a bridge and indeed several bridges too far. +At this juncture Chairman er it is I think worth reemphasizing that the County Council is progressing a further selective alteration to the structure plan, not a fundamental review of the strategic approach or indeed the policies which give effect to it. +I think it's necessary to stress this since a number of representations have referred specifically to the constraints which the locational strategy embodied in policy I five on the ability to deliver the proposed structure plan on employment land allocation. +It shows to some extent the City was tied up with the erm issue of whether or not the structure plan should include a major exception to or indeed a strategic exception to policy. +This of course is er scheduled to be discussed in the context of policy two erm the proposed open countryside policy tomorrow. +It is however I think relevant to the debate on policies I five and I twelve, to the extent that the County Council adjustments to the wording of policy I five which would provide for the distributional strategy and its emphasis on directing development to locations in and adjacent to main urban areas, main towns and small towns, to be modified so as to pe permit major employment allocations to be made elsewhere and indeed on a scale which effectively improved distributional strategy. +So to conclude these opening remarks, the County Council believes the level of employment land provision it proposes is necessary to meet the existing and projected employment needs +and to ensure the local economy is not constrained by a lack of land for employment purposes. +Whilst it is accepted that the total provision for the County, erm five hundred and sixteen hectares about twenty five he per cent above the approved plan provision, the County Council considers this is justified on the basis that it provides the most generous level which can be justified on the information which is available and at a time when changes in the distribution of business use are to say at the least unpredictable. +The County Council therefore Chairman recommends its employment land proposal to the panel. +Can I say Chairman that erm my colleague erm Mr Potter i is our technical resident technical expert and er I'm sure he'll be happy to er to take on board any of the particular queries on the methodology that's been adopted . +Mr Williamson, were you proposing to briefly outline the methodology or w shall we take it as read? +Well er I wasn't Chairman, er Mr Potter I think is +Yes. +quite prepared to do that, erm . +to be raised in in by various participants during the course of the discussion. +The other point I have is N Y ten, can you tell me what erm we make of that one? +I presume everybody's got this N Y ten. +Yes, yes. +The er +Introduce yourself. +Sorry er David Potter, North Yorkshire County Council. +The original calculations which are outlined in er N Y six are based on assumptions which were available at the time which were based on the eighty one census essentially, those calculations form the basis of the consultation plan and the deposit plan. +At the time the committee considered representations of the deposit plan, we had available to us revised projections based on the ninety one census, also information available from the ninety nine planning census of employment and based on a number of er representations made to me formally and informally, I revised the assumptions to er incorporate ninety one census data and to in fact stretch the assumptions er in terms of their general . +The indications of that er in terms of the figures affect only one district, significantly Selby. +Mhm. +And so that, the charts you have in front of you represent the justification of all the changes to Selby's figures. +Erm if I can add at this time there is in fact an error on the final table on that er +Table +Table nine. +Table nine. +Where the Greater York splits is incorrect. +Yes. +It w the purpose of table nine is to try and determine the rest of district allocation. +That rest of district allocation's correct. +The Greater York element unfortunately is not. +The formula in table eight was not carried forward into table nine. +I have a revised version which will cancel . +Well can you give us the figures now? +Certainly +information. +Is that the only correction to be made to table nine? +That is the only correction I wish to submit to table nine yes . +Yes. +Then I think er it may come up later, Mr Cunnane has identified er an error in the Selby figure, erm but I I don't wish to change that because that was the the figure that was considered as one . +Can you tell us what the revisions would be? +The revisions +it was correct. +I understand +Yeah. +that this +Yes. +Yes. +Yes. +Right,bear with me a moment. +The terms of the table nine you have before you er as far as Harrogate is concerned, instead of one point zero three, it should be two point one seven. +The Ryedale figure should be amended from twelve point zero four to sixteen point three two. +The Selby figure should be amended from thirteen point three to fourteen point two six and the York figure from sixty one point six to ninety six point eight eight and the Greater York figure from eighty seven point three to one two seven point six two. +changes on the other t table which has er worked out at thirty four per hectare. +Yes. +is amended from one point three for Harrogate to two point seven four. +From fifteen point two three to twenty point six three +That's for Ryedale. +Sorry yes for for Ryedale. +Could you repeat the figure again? +From Ryedale it's from fifteen point two three to twenty point six three. +From Selby from fifteen point eight six to sixteen point nine one. +And from York, it's from seventy seven point nine one to a hundred and twenty two point five three. +One two two point nine three ? +Sorry a hundred sorry a hundred and sixty one point, from from York it's from seventy seven point nine one to a hundred and twenty two point five three. +Fine. +And from Greater York it's from a hundred and ten point four one to a hundred and sixty one point four one. +They don't affect the policies because the +split was never carried forward into the policy we simply +adopted the Greater York study findings. +Can you tell +very briefly please why the Ryedale figures don't change in the same as, and the Selby figures, don't change in the same sort of way as the figures for other districts? +Erm clarify ? +For example, in the first column, Greater York figure is more or less doubled. +Yeah. +Harrogate figure has more or less doubled, Selby is slightly increased, Ryedale is slightly increased. +It's to do with the way the er the totals are calculated in table eight, erm the split is divided in totals of the proportion of Greater York and the rest of the district. +In different proportions . +Do you just want to touch on I twelve as well Mr Williamson, before we in a general discussion? +Thank you Chairman er Ken Williamson, County Council. +Erm I think er we are er as happy with I twelve provisions having +in that policy as we are with I five. +Erm again I think the general feeling is that taken together +can can you move the microphone +Thank you nice to hear what he says, thank you th that would help. +I think you need to . +Yeah. +Thank you Chairman I I think er as far as I twelve's concerned the County Council's er reasonably happy with that er er policy as it stands, and I think most people erm not all but but certainly the majority of people who er commented on that, commented in a sort of an affirmative way, erm again the provisions of the policy as they are hopefully reworded will er promote the same sort of flexibility and generosity that erm policy I five . +Do you regard provision in accord with point one as being part of the provision provided for N I five? +No Chairman, we we don't. +So it is addition. +It will be a separate er wh whatever. +I mean the the policy as proposed er doesn't have any any particular figures er specific parameters in it. +they are +No I appreciate that but +they are additional to the provisions of I five. +Is that the interpretation that district councils have put upon I five I twelve I wonder? +I can't hear a knock. +Who's going to speak for the districts? +Mr Curtis. +David Curtis, York City Council. +Yes the districts have been working on the basis that I twelve is an additional provision to I five. +Thank you. +Thank you. +Thank you for that Mr Williamson. +Well ladies gentlemen, the floor is yours. +Who would like to start? +Mr Curtis are you +Yes thank you. +you left your plug out. +My mistake sir. +David Curtis, York City Council. +should I make a speech? +Very briefly I would just like to make a statement that er clearly as you'll see from our representations er er on the on the plan submission, the City Council does support the County Council's er approach to employment land provision both for the City of York and for Greater York. +Particularly we do accept the the calculations that the County have used, they way in which they've used both economic activity projections and also land-take. +And also we think they sensibly looked at the actual provision of sites in areas which have proved popular for employment and which do not compromise environmental objectives. +It's very important to recognize that York although a historic city as I mentioned er in the previous discussion, erm is a er is an industrial city with a significant number of employment problems, in particular in the rail engineering industry where we see a rapid er contraction of er what was Brown which is now A B B, clearly continuing problems in the rail industry with the er problems most certainly caused by privatization and also major job reductions in er firms such as Rowntrees and Terrys in the confectionery industry. +The work that we've done on er the economy of the city, based on economic analysis which has been submitted as part of my findings, erm shows quite clearly a continued shift away from manufacturing towards service employment and a continuing need to promote new planned opportunities in locations well suited to the needs of the market. +Our estimate is that the city itself needs something in the order of five thousand jobs over the period of the structure plan to er really just to stay still, to run to run to stand still. +Therefore the analysis that we've done, which is an economic analysis, actually supports the level of er calculation the County Council have produced for land requirements for the city. +Unfortunately as we saw earlier with the housing discussions, we are very much a pint pot as the analogy was used and that a quart just can't be fitted into it. +Therefore we accept that the actual provision within the city er will have to be considerably less than the calculated requirement for the city. +The only issue that I think we have some er difficulty with in the policy as it stands at the moment, is the uncertainty that arises between the figure provided in policy I five of forty six hectares for the city, and actually our agreed calculation which I think the County Council accept, that site availability in the city is limited to something in the order of thirty three hectares if we exclude er one site which is subject to a dispute between parties er in relation to the greenbelt. +But it is included in the deposit plan of the greenbelt by the County Council, that's greenbelt land, so I think bearing in mind what the the panel said the other day, I can accept this discussion that for the time being we assume that is in the greenbelt. +And if we exclude that site, the maximum capacity of the city is in the order of thirty three hectares. +Clearly the policy does allow for additional provision to be made outside the city in the remainder of Greater York, and that is the basis upon which the the City Council has accepted the a hundred and forty five hectare figure for Greater York. +And as you will see from the County Council evidence, the er sites for them have actually been agreed during the Greater York study. +So the only point on I five that I would er ask for clarification on really is that the policy be amended to clarify that the actual provision in the city be thre be thirty three hectares +as I've indicated that is the physical capacity as far as we're concerned. +Turning quickly into I twelve. +Erm we agree entirely with the County Council's proposal to delete erm job targets or targets from the policy. +This does s seem to be in line with with practice nationally at the present time. +We will be making provision within our local plan for a number of erm office sites,office sites in and around the City Centre, we have identified those sites erm, I don't wish to go into those but if the panel wish to further information on those I could. +But basically they will be something in the order of eighty thousand square metres worth of commercial sites in and around the city centre, on sites which we have agreed are suitable for office use. +They tend to be mainly on sites being recycled from existing industrial activities er which are no longer appropriate in the city centre, things like motor traders and that kind of ac activity. +So conclude briefly there in that the City Council does support the the broad thrust of the County's two policies here but we would ask for clarification on I five on the actual level of provision we should be providing on our local plan. +Thank you Mr Curtis. +Now just to clarify in my mind about, here I'm looking at the summary of your submission, you actually refer to the fact that sixty three hectares are required to meet the needs of the city, whereas I take it you say this morning that you're happy with the forty six, er but in reality you can only get thirty three ac thirty three hectares within the city. +Now which which figure are we to talk about? +Is it forty six s or sixty three? +David Curtis, York City. +Ye Yes in fact obviously with the revised information Mr Potter has , the sixty three seems to have changed anyway now. +But erm the forty six is an artificial figure, it represents neither the capacity of the city nor the calculated needs, so I would not wish to er have this figure of forty six in our York plan because it doesn't actually relate to either. +The calculated need figure being what? +The calculated need figure as submitted by the County Council was sixty three hectares +Yes. +which I was saying I was happy to accept. +I note that the approved structure plan contains a similar sort of approach to York, I E its need is greater than its capacity and the policy in the approved plan recognizes that some of the provision will not be in York itself. +Has that formed a satisfactory basis for planning? +Mr Curtis. +David Curtis, York City Council. +It is difficult to actually say that it has formed a satisfactory basis because in in effect, the amount of land that has come forward in the city has been below the the figure that was allocated in the original structure plan. +You'll see from the tables submitted by Mr Potter on past land-take that we've actually provided less than the twenty six hectares even, that's because the opportunities did not arise. +Clearly as we discussed earlier in the week, erm the opportunities in the city will be on recycled land. +The reason why we're having to go to a higher figure now is there are two major areas of land, er one is the land behind the railway station, the British Rail land, and the other is the land at a a location called St Nicholas Field, a former household waste site, both of which we are taking steps to bring forward for development. +Therefore we believe that during the plan period, those sites are likely to come forward and make a improved contribution to meeting our share of the Greater York employment needs. +I would have to say that erm in broad terms, that the existing policy has been acceptable erm in er terms of a planning basis for the city. +There is a si a significant difference between the two policies though, in that the wording of the revised policy is much more specific about saying part of our need will be found elsewhere, whereas I five as in the approved structure plan merely makes reference to the fact that all of our requirement will be found in Greater York. +You may find that just a subtle difference but I think that in terms of the way erm make allocation in our local plan, that it does cause some confusion. +Yes. +Erm my reference was in part to the Secretary of State's notice of approval of the last alteration of the structure plan, where he said he accepted that some of the provision York provision would have to made outside the ci city boundaries. +I'm still left wondering whether this sort of statement in policy is in accord with the advice now contained +in P P G twelve about the guidance the structure plan should provide to a local planner, and put my cards on the table, wonder whether it wouldn't actually be more to say if York can only provide thirty three hectares, that should be the provision first in York? +So as to remove the uncertainty about erm what in effect is a sort of black box floating around perhaps attached to a hot air balloon somewhere over York. +David Curtis, York City Council. +Erm yes, well I I think that's a perfectly sensible way forward. +I'm perfectly happy to accept a figure for York of thirty three hectares. +Clearly reference can be made in the to the fact that that is not all of York's requirements but the balance is being found elsewhere within Greater York, and I would be perfectly happy with that. +I wonder if Mr Saunders has a view. +Les Saunders, D O E. +I'm afraid you've stolen all my thunder, erm you've said everything that I wanted to say . +Erm +We both read P P Gs. +I am aware that the the Secretary for the erm er Secretary of State's approval letter to the area alteration does make reference to erm +an element of York's provision erm being found outside the district's boundaries. +That was the best, at least I understand that was the best the Secretary of State could do at the time. +Erm, matters have moved on from than then in terms of the er additional P P G guidance which I think makes it quite clear, as as you've already s said that erm we should be as transparent as possible in our allocations and levels for provision for employment development. +Erm so that it would be in our view desirable that the level of provision for York was that which was realistic to er to accommodate, in this case it appears to be thirty three hectares and that the er the a additional element should be located in in or between the other districts in the Greater York area. +Erm the this C I P and the panel's consideration en enables them to actually reach a view on that and and hopefully come forward with recommendations. +If does, perhaps I should ask, does the County Council accept that a t more transparent position would be a logical conclusion? +Mr Chairman, Ken Williamson, County Council. +Erm I think if we could get there, obviously our our aim er would be to provide er as clearer level of guidance in the policy possible to do. +Erm it's interesting,Mr Saunders er when he said it it was the best the Secretary of State could do last time round, erm, I wonder why er if he couldn't do it then, it would be really possible er in any way to do it now. +Erm we have available erm a a distribution obviously which is based on on sites, er and one could look at that er as a as a way forward erm +Do you contest what Mr Curtis is saying +about the capacity of York City to accommodate additional employment land? +No Chairman I don't think we do. +Erm we're quite happy with with what Mr Curtis says about that, er we acknowledge that er while the need will be er probably much greater than the it's a physical fact of life in York that there isn't a great deal of er available land. +And it would have to be found er if we were to move to to the er position that Mr Curtis has said about the total need, it would have to be found somewhere else. +Thank you. +That leaves us then with or would leave us with a substantial provision in Greater York. +The Greater York figure doesn't I think change as a consequence of what Mr Curtis has said. +But we're looking for something well in excess of a hundred hectares outside the city boundaries and essentially in the greenbelt. +Is my conclusion correct? +not correct. +Erm we are looking and we have found in a sense erm land which er is available erm to meet the provisions, the a hundred and forty five hectares that the Greater York study suggested. +Erm those sites are not actually er affected by greenbelt designations. +They are inset in the greenbelt. +They are within the yes, within the inner boundary of the greenbelt. +Between the York City boundary and the inner boundary of the greenbelt ? +The implication of what you're saying is that these hundred hectares plus can be found between the York City boundary and the inner boundary of the greenbelt? +Substantially that that's correct. +Erm there's also of course the issue of the within the resettlement wherever that would be, that would be er if it's accepted it would be outside Greater York, so there would be an effect in a sense on the erm the Greater York figure in the policy of a hundred and forty five hectares would be minus whatever was allocated to the resettlement. +Is it a sensible planning strategy to take all this land between the city boundary and the inner boundary of the greenbelt, in what is the current structure plan period, I wonder? +Where would you go after two thousand and six? +Well I think we will be er in a sense looking erm you know at the options that are available and all the options that are available after two thousand six, er we haven't looked at those in gr in any great detail,what the options were at that time. +But those options will will be rather constrained will they not, erm +Have you +a greenbelt which is intended to be permanent, a capac a city which has +limited capacity +for additional land as opposed to recycling the existing land. +Well er +Will your proposed take-up of this the the white land between the city boundary and the inner boundary of the greenbelt in fact take the whole lot, or is there some reserve? +Erm,Chairman there isn't er reserve available, what we will be faced with is looking at erm for post two thousand and six, all options bar essential development around around the urban area. +true. +If the greenbelt is to mean anything. +Well there would be options other than the ability to to make further provision around the the periphery of the city, between the urban area and the greenbelt. +Essentially, aren't you saying that post two thousand and six, the options will be two. +Either to find additional land by recycling it in York, or beyond the greenbelt? +That's correct Chairman I think erm, we will be looking obviously to see what the prospects were within er the urban area and er sites do and surprisingly do continue to to to arrive and come up and we some other uses, erm they would make some contribution obviously erm, the other options would as you say be to to look beyond beyond the greenbelt at the opportunities that are available there. +Can we just clarify one point. +Erm the provision in policy I five does not include recycling land in in existing +industrial or commercial or business use. +It is effectively in planning terms a change of use from whatever to industry or business that I find is providing for. +Yes Chairman the the main provisions of I five are to to make new land provisions. +I think er the circumstances of Greater York are so complex and difficult administration that erm the the additional erm possibilities that in a sense would be making a contribution. +Now now the point +But what I +I was trying to clarify they don't make a contribution to the I five provision. +They make a contribution to employment by virtue of an increase in employment density or or not, depending on whether that increase actually takes place but they do not contribute to the I five provision by virtue of not being a change of use. +Yes I understand that point. +So effectively I five is a new land for employment uses? +Yes. +Can I just confirm with Mr Curtis that when he was talking about the thirty three hectares, he was talking about thirty three hectares in terms of in terms of a change of use +from whatever, be it agriculture, +David Curtis, York +housing to industry. +David Curtis, York City Council. +I would answer that we are talking about a change of use but I have to add the reminder that the largest area inside the city is currently British Rail land. +It's not in industrial use if one takes the definition that it's railway land. +Yes, yes. +I appreciate that. +Well it's certainly not in industrial use at the moment is it? +Yes. +Can I just clarify one other point with the County Council and for the benefit of those who've not been here for the last however many days. +We were talking about the new settlement. +To clarify that we established yesterday that the new settlement will not necessarily be within the Greater York area, as it is defined on the plan on the board. +The Greater York area coincides with that black circle roughly er on that on that map, and as you will see the Greater York area also coincides virtually with the whole of the greenbelt. +Apart from the City of York and any other inset within it. +Perhaps I should also say that the panel has not made up it's mind yet about whether there should or should not be a new settlement of course. +We also talked about the new settlement being self-contained and integrated, but came I think to a consensus around the table that the level of employment provision in the new settlement should be related to the level of employment supply in the new settlement as opposed to a level of employment which would satisfy employment needs +in inverted commas for the Greater York area. +In other words, it's not an employment location, it is primarily a residential new settlement development which has some employment in it to satisfy employment needs of those who live there. +Professor Lock is now looking very confused. +My question was simply at the moment Professor Lock er am I clear, are you clear about that? +You're very clear in what you're saying +Good point that yeah. +but erm, sorry the reason I'm raising my eyebrows is that the people who would come to live in the new settlement if it was to happen, are people who would otherwise have to live somewhere else in in the county +Yes indeed. +and so it seems to me that the erm really from the county's point of view, er to their advantage as it were, the employment land requirement stays the same. +What you're just talking about is different patterns of its distribution that may occur. +Mm right. +Has is that is that fair too? +Thank you. +Yes it is. +On that basis, Mr Williamson, and on the basis that you propose and acknowledge others do not accept that this new settlement should at least in this plan period be for about fourteen hundred dwellings, what level of employment land provision can be taken out of the Greater York figure and assumed to be in the new settlement? +can I ask Mr Potter . +Er David Potter, North Yorkshire County Council. +Can you just s use the microphone and speak up Mr Potter please. +People at the back can't hear. +David Potter, North Yorkshire County Council. +Er the distribution within Greater York is based essentially on the Greater York study, which identified the number of sites in and around Greater York and allocated those to the appropriate districts. +There is a residue of unidentified land of some thirteen hectares, based on our revised assessment based on nineteen ninety one. +Erm that is considered to be er an element which make a contribution towards the new settlement. +Was that one three or three zero? +One three . +One three. +Thank you. +Mr Curtis. +Sorry Mr Curtis before you come in can I just come back to you, er I just want to get this clear. +Erm in realistic terms you can accommodate thirty three hectares of industrial land in the City of York. +Now does your er assessed requirement, or your assessment of needs, still remain at sixty three hectares, and if it does if it does, is that all taken care off within the one hundred and forty five hectares for the Greater York figure? +Or are we looking at possibly a larger figure now for Greater York? +David Curtis, York City Council. +No sir I I do accept first of all that the capacity of the city should remain at thirty three. +Right. +I accept that the fall within the hundred and forty five hectares. +Yeah. +Okay, thank you. +Sir. +What I would like to just er point out to the panel in terms of the earlier discussion the Senior Inspector was having about the sites around Greater York is that virtually without exception, well the two exceptions being the two hospital sites, I think all the other sites are actually our planning commitments so erm your comment about erm the longevity of the the greenbelt as it were, that virtually all those sites are actually committed in in one form or another, the only two sites which are not er committed really are the Naburn and Clifton hospital sites which are both inset within the greenbelt, well one is inset and one is subject to the normal P P G two er requirements for redevelopment of hospitals. +These sites are inside the city boundary or not? +No they are, they lie they lie within the urban settlement of York but outside our boundary. +Thank you. +Thank you. +Miss Firth. +Fiona Firth, Montague Evans. +It's our view Chairman that the figure of a hundred and forty five hectares for the Greater York area is too high, erm the basis for that is the government guidance P P G twelve, paragraph five point one three, which says that the structure plan should provide a strategic framework for local plans development control and it should also indicate broad areas of restraint on development. +Within Greater York the general philosophy embodied in both the Greater York study and the structure plan has been one of restraint. +Erm the County Council's calculations identify the industrial B one land requirements to be on an economic activity base requirement, a hundred and two hectares and on a land-take basis a hundred and thirteen hectares, yet they're allocating a hundred and forty five hectares in the structure plan. +Given the policy of restraint we believe that they should provide enough land to meet requirements, they shouldn't base their figure on past overtake. +So therefore our contention that the figure should be reduced to a hundred and two hectares. +If if they don't reduce that figure we feel that the oversupply will lead to green field sites being used where they shouldn't be. +It also erm quite wrongly fuels justification for a new settlement proposal, because as they're saying there's a shortfall in allocations. +Bearing in mind the advice in P P G four in particular, about providing a range and a choice of employment opportunities, the fact that the last decade this part of the country's probably seen two recessions and the need for flexibility, +Mhm. +do you think your recommended a hundred and two hectares would cater for all those things? +Well yes I do. +There is a range of sites, there's a list of the different sites in the Greater York study, erm I've looked at most of those sites and they there there is a big range of sites both in size and location. +Erm that period has also had a period of growth within it, and I feel that's a reasonable basis to go forward on. +Do you care to comment, Mr Williamson? +Thank you Chairman. +Er Ken Williamson, County Council. +Erm owing to the extent Chairman and I think erm we we have established er we were happy that the the level of development er rightly or wrongly as a as a commitment is already in excess of the hundred and two hectares being spoken about. +I'd also just comment briefly on erm th the comments being made about restraint. +Er it's never been the County Council's er objective or intention to restrain what are the genuine er employment needs of its local residents, erm and we feel that this level of allocation is suited to to the needs of the residents. +After two thousand and six? +Mr Girt? +Dave Girt, Leeds City. +I wonder if I could bring Mr Williamson back to the basic methodology of calculation of the overall requirement share. +It seems to me two of the elements are lend themselves to some sort of arithmetical assessment an and the County's gone through at. +Mr Williamson's pointed to other factors which have been taken into account, the local requirements as a as a advised to him by the district councils, but he hasn't mentioned the Secretary of State's advice in R P G two that North Yorkshire should take account of the strategic guidance for West Yorkshire in that calculation. +I wonder if he could describe to us what influence that has been brought to bear on the the overall calculation? +I think it might be helpful Mr Girt if you could be a little more explicit about what in particular +Yes. +you're getting at. +Well if I refer you, Dave Girt, Leeds City, if I refer you madam to the first paragraph of R P G 2 which is strategic planning guidance for West Yorkshire. +You have the benefit of us both I think up here, can you t +Well,per could I read the sentence which +Thank you. +I'm to quote then. +It says the guidance has some implications for adjoining areas and neighbouring county and metropolitan district councils are asked to have to regard to it when reviewing and altering their statutory development plans . +What do you interpret those implications as being? +Well I, I'm having some difficulty in keeping my remarks addressed to question A and not drifting into question B because obviously Leeds City Council and perhaps speaking for the rest of West Yorkshire's concerned about regeneration effects. +Is that as far as you can take us on your interpretation of what those implications are? +I don't want to l , Dave Girt, Leeds City, I don't want to make a meal of it, I mean the the theme of R P G two is about revitalizing +Yeah. +Yeah. +West Yorkshire,i it's the central core of that strategy. +Right but isn't +S +isn't there a risk that if we don't keep a reasonable balance between employment and employment demand and employment supply in North Yorkshire, we shall finish up for different reasons with a need to regenerate the economy of Yorkshire, North Yorkshire? +Dave Girt, Leeds City. +Yes I think Leeds would be very happy to accept arguments erm based in part on the arithmetic, in part on the needs of the area. +All I'm saying is, what account has been taken of that other ingredient, which is the strategic guidance for West Yorkshire? +Mr Williamson didn't mention it in his description of the way he'd arrived, the County Council had arrived at their five hundred and odd hectares and er so far as West Yorkshire's aware, it's been ignored or so f as far as we're aware so far, it's been ignored. +Now we're not arguing that the calculation should go beyond past land take-up and er counting the heads of those who would be employed, we w we would follow a similar process and we recognize that there are needs beyond that. +But you've argued previously in this hall that North Yorkshire should provide for residential development at a level which would cater for a continuation of the past levels of migration. +Mm. +In the interests not least of Great of the Leeds Metropolitan Area? +I'm still having a bit of difficulty reconciling those what you're saying with those sorts of lines put to us previously. +Dave Girt, Leeds City. +Let me just clarify the line I've been arguing previously, and with Bradford. +We both argued that the levels of er housing development in Craven, Harrogate and to a lesser extent perhaps Amblet Hambleton should not be constrained, so as to reduce erm the the steady trickle if I can describe it as that of migration from the West Yorkshire conurbation to those areas, in perhaps er l looking at the different proposal for the new settlement which might be located in the Leeds York corridor. +We've argued that that would stimulate migration as opposed simply to accommodate past trends, so we've argued that, but the the problem for West Yorkshire well for Leeds in particular is that the brown field sites we have, the regeneration that we need is not of sites which would readily accommodate housing, they're not sites which lend themselves as nice places to live. +They're almost always surrounded by existing long term industry, they're not the sorts of places we want Leeds residents to have to live in the future. +And it's it's on the economic front that regeneration has the highest priority in Leeds and not on the housing front, as I as I've previously described. +For housing purposes we've taken large chunks out of our greenbelt, signalling that in terms of regeneration, we don't have regeneration housing sites. +If you were County Planning Officer for North Yorkshire as well as for Leeds, how would you want the North Yorkshire structure plan changed? +Well I'd like, Dave Girt, Leeds City, I'd like s some recognition of West Yorkshire's problems to be evident in er the deliberations, which er at the moment it's it's absent, it may it may have been taken into account but it's absent in the exposition, and I I'd also like some erm indication that competing development would not be massed on the boundaries of Leeds,that the scales of er the the distribution of the employment land seems to be to be biased towards those districts which which border Leeds. +Sorry to press this but would you regard the provision of thirty three or forty six hectares in York and a hundred and five hectares in Greater York as being prejudicial to your interests in Leeds? +I'd, Dave Girt, Leeds City, I'd be er pleased to hear from Mr Williamson that the hundred and forty five hectares for Greater York is actually to be contained within the York greenbelt, I I think Leeds has misunderstood that point, perhaps misled by the way each one was worded and we've in previous days clarified that point so +Right. +My understanding is that with the exception of the thirteen hectares which +Yes. +Mm. +er Mr Williamson has indicated would be the +the right sort of order of magnitude of allocation to the new settlement, the remainder of the hundred and forty five hectares would be within that ring on that plan. +Are you happy? +Yes I a I think , Dave Girt, Leeds City. +I think erm previously we misunderstood that point, we thought the hundred and forty five hectares was footloose in the same area of search for the settlement and +No. +I'm I'm pleased that that's been clarified and er we understand that better now. +Well that's not our understanding anyway, you know that it's footloose. +I mean +Right, right. +Yes we're clear. +Right. +I I'm still a little bit puzzled about the thirteen hectares, is that footloose depending on where the settlement is placed if it's placed within Greater York? +The settlement er in all probability as we established yesterday morning, could not go within those few fields which are in the Greater York area and not in the greenbelt . +Mm. +Mm. +There are two small patches to the north of the city and looking at the plan again this morning there's one small patch +Mm, mm. +to the south. +We have certainly not confined the area of search for the new settlement +to that +to those areas. +As you know, if you heard the discussion yesterday which I believe you did, in accord with the County Council's criterion that it the new settlement should be within ten miles, we've widened the area of search to that ten mile radius. +Dave Girt, Leeds City. +Th thank you for that madam, I I understand that better now. +Still I think there are concerns for Leeds about the scale of employment land proposed in Selby for example, which seems to us significantly more than could be supported by the arithmetic calculation plus some kind of a sensible allowance, it seems to f to be excessively generous. +Yeah. +Er obviously Mr Girt, +I think yes I think we've +we've concentrated on York and Greater York for the moment +Mm. +Erm +We shall move the scene elsewhere. +You'll get your chance again no doubt. +Mr Cunnane, +Is it about York? +Is it about York, or Tadcaster? +N neither. +Selby. +And it's a lot, I have a lot to say so it might be better to wait. +Until after the break, I don't know. +It's up to you. +You want to shift the scene now to Selby District? +Erm +Is well is there anything the other districts want to say +Yeah. +about Greater York? +Mr Smith. +Ian Smith, Ryedale District. +It's erm coming back to a point which Mr Curtis made about the amount of land identified in the Greater York study area, which is allocated but doesn't have a planning permission. +Erm within Ryedale we've got thirty odd hectares of land which we've allocated for development in the period up to two thousand and six +In the Greater York area? +In the Greater York area which doesn't have a current planning permission, and that's not including a redundant hospital site of another ten hectares. +So you re you regard that as providing some flexibility? +Well in er in terms of Ryedale yes. +And as I say there i there is land there which is is er aimed to provide a range of sites up until the end of the structure plan period, within that part of the Greater York area. +Thank you. +Michael Jewitt, Hambleton District Council. +Erm as we're on Greater York I feel I ought to say something having a s small part of the Greater York area within Hambleton. +Erm we don't expect to be making any meaningful contribution towards erm employment provision around Greater York, I'd refer you to er statements we made erm on erm the p on policy H one. +Erm only three settlements in the area, very small, and it's unlikely that they're gonna meet meet an make any meaningful contribution to employment needs in Greater York. +Thank you. +Mr Mr Allenby, I I know you've made a submission but can we just clarify what provision is being made in Harrogate District which can be seen quite rightly as forming pa a contribution towards the Greater York? +Thank you Chairman, yes. +The the total provision for Harrogate District is ninety hectares of which thirty hectares is allocated to Greater York and we support that allocation because it properly reflects the provision of a site which is already committed for industrial development. +So it's a single site of thirty hectares which is committed by way of planning permission. +Mr Heselton. +Er Terry Heselton, Selby District. +Er just for the record Chairman to confirm that Selby District has no argument with the County Council on the Greater York . +How much can you provide in the Greater York area? +There's I think it's approximately twenty six hectares identified, erm most of which is committed in one way or another. +And that figure also coincides with the the estimated requirement figure that we've come up with independently for the Greater York area, within Selby District anyway. +And that if my arithmetic is correct which it often isn't, takes us to +hundred and nineteen +hundred and nineteen +hectares in Greater York. +That will +I'll just repeat that. +Thirty hectares for Ryedale, thirty for Harrogate, twenty six Selby and thirty three York City. +Mr Potter. +David Potter, David Potter North Yorkshire County Council. +Erm we have been monitoring land availability since about nineteen eighty nine, nineteen ninety and our records for Ryedale show that there are approximately fifty hectares available. +Some small sites within existing industrial areas are still available. +Some small sites within existing industrial areas at Clifton and at er Pigeoncote particularly are available and undeveloped. +Well if they're within existing industrial areas, then they're not included in the I five provision are they? +They they are vacant sites, serviced and ready for development. +They must make a contribution. +Never been developed. +They've never been developed. +They're vacant land. +They're the the residue of partially developed sites . +Right. +I understand, thank you. +Mr Smith. +Yeah I just er want to reaffirm that. +The figure I gave was on erm sites which were allocated +allocated +but had no planning permission, that wasn't including er I think twenty three hectares we've calculated which have erm outstanding planning permissions. +So adding this extra twenty hectares identified within Ryedale, that takes us to a hundred and thirty nine hectares for Greater York. +Yeah, yeah. +I think it might be useful to break there so we can have coffee. +Reconvene at eleven thirty then we'll I think we, unless somebody else wants to raise points on Greater York, Mr Curtis? +David Curtis, York City Council. +Sir I would just, I think it would help the panel if you will refer to table seventeen of erm N Y six which actually sets out these sites. +Right. +Erm, will help help you obviously totalling all the proportions up. +Thank you. +So reconvene at eleven thirty please. +And let's turn our attention to Selby. +Mr Cunnane, you indicated you wish to speak on that? +Yes. +Yes please Chairman erm J Cunnane, J C Cunnane Associates. +Erm I have a number of points to make but what I intend to do is to er very briefly outline them and then see where we go from there if that's acceptable. +Er I would like to say at the outset that erm we we support the deposit version of the er the deposit version allocations of the alteration. +We think they are about right, they would provide for an appropriate level of development. +Erm I I should also say that for the for the record that erm we accept the Greater York figures and regard them as also acceptable. +Er turning now to er land allocation with particular reference to Selby. +Erm it is our position that we would support and regard as as the best approach one based on past land take-up. +Erm and there is an important planning principle which er I would like to draw attention to in in this in in in the approach that we adopt and where we differ from Selby. +The Selby approach seems to me to be er look at the land that is allocated which amounts to approximately a hundred hectares in the district and discount a great deal of it because it's constrained in some way or another, and I'll come back to those constraints later. +But I simply want to make the the point of planning principle that you don't as a matter of approach walk away from constrained sites and say, ah well we don't like that because there's some constraint, we'll go and we'll reallocate an another piece of land somewhere else, and er that'll come forward more easily. +If you adopt that approach it is inevitable that there's going to result dereliction and sterilization of land. +And that approach er to in er in that sense is is totally unacceptable. +However, it is the approach that Selby appeared to adopt. +Turning now to the question of allocating land on the basis of need. +It is appears to be accepted in principle by Selby in paragraph two point eight of their submission, that they do actually accept this approach. +However, they they say that it i b it is unacceptable because it er pays insufficient regard to loss of jobs and the future role of manufacturing and service industry. +As I understand the way need has been calculated, and the County will correct me if I'm wrong on this, er the method does actually take account of unemployment, and it sets an eventual employment level of three percent as a goal. +And erm for that reason, er I wouldn't accept that the that that approach is is er inappropriate on that basis. +The second point I would make on the criticism that Selby make of the need erm assessment is they say that it doesn't erm take adequate cognizance of manufacturing and service employment. +As I understand the allocations, they don't seek to differentiate between different types of employment within the business use class, erm and for that reason equally I would regard that submission that it's an unacceptable approach as as invalid. +Er Mr Potter this morning very fairly said to this erm t to the panel that if you do his need assessment which i if you got to the the exercise and stretch every parameter to its very limits, be as generous as you can on every possible criterion, you can get to an allocation for Selby of a hundred and twenty two hectares. +Selby are looking for an allocation of twice that, and if you a if you accept that the County are correct and I can see no reason to to erm to vary from that, in fact our submissions er set out very clearly why we think every parameter is stretched to its limits,i if you st i if you accept that then at the very least I think its incumbent upon Selby to put forward a cogent argument for doubling that figure. +The reason for that is that it is we are operating in a in an environment of planning policy restraint. +We are not a West Yorkshire or a South Yorkshire er polic in a in a West Yorkshire or a South Yorkshire policy regime. +And for that reason, need, local need, should be catered for, unemployment sh obviously should be catered for but a growth strategy which seeks to double the allocation without any justification is inevitably going to lead to one of two things, it is going to draw in in economic activity from outside, and it is likely that that will be from areas of regeneration, or it will lead to commuting. +Either of those two approaches are unacceptable in principle in policy terms. +However, turning turning to Selby's demand led approach which I would call it, and I think that is erm how they themselves in fact describe it, they have set a level of two hundred and two hundred to two hundred a fifty hectares based on demand, and as I understand it there is no assessment of job need or job demand to back that requirement. +There is no cognizance taken of the advice in P P G twelve, paragraph five point four four, which says that it is right to have a flexible approach er with a range of sites available to business to be provided in plans, and authorities will want to ensure that in allocating sites there is a reasonable expectation of development proceeding . +Well I would have thought that if there was to be some assessment of a reasonable expectation of development proceeding, then there ought to be some assessment of demand, and I haven't seen that yet. +It is suggested also in Selby's submissions that demand has been frustrated in their paragraphs three point two one to three point two five, but again no evidence has been submitted of that, that I have seen. +Selby enjoy partially part part of their area enjoys assisted area status, part of it enjoys objective two status, it is an area where land is cheap, it is an area where there is a plentiful supply of labour, and yet the past allocation in the structure plan has not been taken up. +The submission that Selby make on the basis of constraints, of which I've referred to earlier, +Are you +to my mind they're no different to the constraints that one would experience in any other planning area. +Erm, I'm not sure whether it would be appropriate for me to go through the the table now and look at the constraints, or whether it might be better to leave that until after I've finished my overall remarks. +Yes okay. +Er my next point is that it has t this panel has to consider the implications of the Selby go for growth approach which I would call it, and I don't think Selby differ from that, I think Selby are embarked on a a a a policy of growth, that the implications of that policy have to be con taken into consideration in relation to housing in particular, erm and it is apparent that if the allocation is doubled then there is unquestionably going to be a housing implication arising from that, and whether that would fit in with policies H one and H two. +Hous yes I think that deals with erm my main points other than to say,t to repeat er very very briefly because Mr Curtis made the point already, that there is an implication er for this in in this growth strategy for er effect on regeneration in West Yorkshire in particular. +Er now I do have as I say some detailed points on constraints and things but perhaps I'll leave those for the moment. +Mr Cunnane I think it may be helpful, bearing in mind that you do not support the proposed level for housing provision in Selby to try to as isolate that element from our discussion. +To what extent if if you accept the County Council's proposed housing provision for Selby, and I appreciate that's hypothetical but I er I think it would help me to get this element isolated from our discussion, otherwise we may go round in ever decreasing circles. +What level of employment land provision would you support in Selby? +I would assume that the County Council's assessment of need at a hundred and twenty two hectares does take cognizance of the s the anticipated growth in housing. +And I'll obviously be corrected on that if I'm er I'm getting an an affirmative nod from Mr Potter. +So erm on on the basis on the assumption on the assumption that you've put to me, then I would be prepared to accept that a hundred and twenty two hectares would be a reasonable level. +Thank you. +Thank you that's helpful. +Mr Heselton. +Well I wondered er Terry Heselton, Selby District. +I wondered if it would er be appropriate for me to respond at this juncture? +Yes. +As er set out in in my written submission, Selby District clearly doesn't support either of the er alternative methods of of calculating em employment land. +I'll I'll deal with them both first. +In respect of past land-take. +I feel this is completely unrealistic, because basically er demand has been thwarted by existing land shortages. +In a nutshell the approved structure plan seriously underestimated the employment needs of the district, and it allocated only forty six hectare for a fifteen year period. +What this means in essence when when you look at the geography of of the district is that it imposes severe restrictions on where you can distribute reasonable sized employment allocations around the district. +And the other thing you have to bear in mind is that at the time the original structure plan was drawn up, they weren't talking about the er the structural employment problems that we are at the moment. +In fact I think it's true to say that when the forty six hectare figure wa was agreed, it was known that the coal field was coming and er I think time has shown hasn't brought anything like the number of jobs or economic + +Well one of the things we did do immediately after the er youth consultation is that we erm, we erected a paid for a skate board ramp at erm one of the youth centres in, in Harlow, so you know, we we creating that facility, but erm, what, you, so you your question was more directed at providing more of those kind of facilities . +Well, providing , mainly because you see a lot of the youngsters with their skate boards, but they're skating through the town, all over the place. +I mean, a lot, I can say with on the youths, I think were doing, were, were, were walking with young people at the local levels of various places in the town you know, we've got, we haven't got as many resources as we want yet, but were still trying to do that, well I actually feel, on youth we're doing quite a good job you know, expensive job you know, that we are, and, and all that concerns you raise, were certainly aware of. +The problem is solving all the problems, providing all the facilities in, in the situation where it's diminishing resources, I mean we wouldn't be actually be carrying out this review, in the way that were gonna do it, if we didn't have the problem with the money we've got, you know. +Right, time marches on we've got five minutes before this meeting closes, so if you've got another question, I'll take one more question for Chris and then she's off the hook. +Any more questions? +I could tell you something about the, if you've got the +Gordon bennett . +Norman, that erm, one of the at the moment. +Yes. +Was going to have a facility for young people, if you remember, it was suggested that the restaurant was used for young people. +With still not loosing site of the idea of having a cafe, bar, coffee for people, one of the things that were, that gonna look through and explore explore actually is er setting up some kind of coffee bar facilities at Kingsmoor, the play barn, there next to them. +Erm, but that's really . +I know it's one area.. +One would think , one of the things that young people decide was that they wanted facilities in their area. +In their area. +Area you see. +That's is what I . +Could I come in here Chris? +Yeah. +At the, at the last search, at the last highway committee, although were not having, having, having the, the full service at the envisage in the first instance, a lot is going to be done, is going to be some more erm shelters directed there and one or two other facilities and somebody has even suggested that we put a toilet there which is a very good idea.. +Which is a very good idea, but, what they, what the er, what the Council have done is. +Can I, can I madam please, if I may. +What is, what is happening at the moment is although they can't afford the money for the full, for the full treatment they are making an allocation of money to improve matters round, round that area, which will be er, cos I, I told them that some of the pensioners were,w walking round by the bankment, it's pouring of rain, which is perfectly true and that er the engineer should go round and see for himself and plus the fact how many of these people ever travel by bus, or do they always go by car, no, and also I brought up about bus shelters and all those sort of things, but any way, there will be some improvements for the bus station in the future. +Right, am I let off the hook now? +Yeah, your off the hook. +Thank you very much, thank you Chris.. +I'm sure the, I'm sure they'll all go away very when you, before you came. +. +They . +Thanks a lot. +Well now, now you know that when I disappear with a placard sign, I don't just appear with a placard, we are doing things behind the scenes. +That's right, thanks a lot Chris. +Okay . +That's great, thanks very much. +Right, were now on other reports. +Any body got any thing else to report, with got a few minutes left? +Yes, no, any other business, you can all go, your all off the hook.. +They'll start arguing now. +Come on a Wednesday, but I think I'll come on Thursday and Friday . +I'll shall be there Friday, Pauline, I, I can't make it Thursday. +Are there any people who can come Thursday? +Thursday?. +Anybody Thursday? +At the market. +At the market, yeah, yeah. +You've got one or two there, look, that come along.. +You alright in there .. +Don't go over doing it. +What about you, could you? +No good. + +Apologies for absence +Councillor Peter , Mrs Pat , Sir John , Mr Peter and Mrs and David apologize, they will be attending but they'll be a few minutes late. +Alright. +Minutes of the meeting held on the seventeenth November. +Right, er matters arising from the minutes. +Nothing on page one , page two, page three, page four, page five, page six, page seven. +Yeah page seven er er I think that speaking from memory we did want that made clear that that er was the recognition of the achievements of the groundsman handyman, particularly in relation to the high standards of upkeep in the park. +That's right. +I think it's important that that should er be madam chairman. +We also agreed that erm performance assessment reports in the future would be provided by the chair and finance after considering the recommendations of the chairman of the recreation ground committee and the clerk. +Don't these minutes +No no +no I didn't query them +Sorry. +because, but I just felt that er those particular aspects were important for future year, because of the er discussions that took place. +Erm we are dealing with public funds and er and those that particular minute I think relate to detailed discussions that took place before approval was given. +I wrote to both and the handyman and said that is was for a performance related bonus and er +Yeah that's fine. +An anything else from the minutes? +Can we go on to the minutes of the committee meeting of sixth December then. +Anything arising from them page one page two page three +Right, we we're not doing the minutes for the tenth of January because you've only just got the copies this evening so that's being erm, we'll go through those at the next meeting. +Financial statement, bills for payment. +queries +Has anyone got any queries about them ? +Erm can I just mention then about the car park and the total cost of it now. +Okay. +Erm just to go over the payments for the car park which has come up actually under community industries and the plants, the total being now for plants it was four hundred and forty four pounds er +and the gravel, right gravel and plants and what was the other bit? +And there was some wood for planking +Wood for planking. +Erm and then the actual, the labour charges from the er what are they called +Community +Community community industries, labour charges for car park were eight hundred and twenty two fifty but that's got to have the VAT deducted from it. +Erm so it's a total of approximately one thousand +Skip hire. +Skip hire. +Oh skip hire as , four hundred pounds. +That makes it a total of about one thousand five hundred. +From that we have six hundred and fifty allowed for the car park from last year for paper bank money, four hundred and five recycle money just come in, +Yes. +from the paper bank and four hundred pounds worth of grant, two hundred from the county council and two hundred from the district council, so added up car park . +Mm. +Okay? +Yes. +Yes. +I I mean I think I think in retrospect the erm this isn't intended as a criticism erm of past work, but I do think we need to look at getting as much volunteer help in the town towards volun volunt environmental achievements as possible because one of our one of our claims is that we're cost effective and can galvanize voluntary effort, and if we erm put all of our work out to tender including relatively small works, we're actually going to negate that particular claim and we're gonna look as as as er cost cost wasteful as the district council and the county council in their use of professional help all the time, even though there may be people in the community who are prepared to help. +I think we need to plan our projects so that we can galvanize voluntary efforts as much as possible, particularly in small projects er when they come up in future. +I think that's an important part of our claim. +Erm we criticize the county council because it's always using professional professional work rather than voluntary help, er because that's the way they choose to do it, er if we continue this line . +I think can I just say one thing we did actually h it wasn't community industry erm the people that did it I don't know +They they trained that's the +to be honest because erm it's and that I won't say that there's a criticism of this particular project which I supported at the time but I think that in future we do need to plan our projects and and there are people in the in the town that are prepared to work, perhaps need a bit of organizing, we need to think about how that might happen, but we mustn't first reaction go to professional or semiprofessional help. +Any more +erm it may be erm a a good idea to use it as a erm as a first scheme perhaps to erm to try and er car park and if you look at that at the beginning and just keep it on a on a rolling programme then all that doesn't get so enormous er it doesn't get such a a large task so maybe if er, but it does need coordinating perhaps we should think about it. +Yes. +Right. +Any any other comments on the financial statements? +Can you tell me what a planting of a quick is? +When the men installed the new er fence on the nature reserve, +Mm. +that so it doesn't look like a new fence we planted quick. +And plants are they? +Yes quick plants. +I'm sorry. +Right well +I haven't been to one of the meetings so I can't remember who the, but how are all these contained within the budget, all these costs, and have they all been approved and agreed? +What +The the bills for payment. +I haven't actually done the tally backwards and forwards. +I think so. +Is there anything that to comment on that? +Well er the bills during the month of December and early January erm hire of waste paper skip erm if you if query, the reason we hired the chain saws to save ourselves spending thousands of pounds on doing tree works. +We've now got a trained erm chain saw operator working for us. +That's saved us about nine hundred and forty pounds . +The three hour the recreation chairman asked that we er , standard bills for garage for petrol and Centre for the standard items,. +Er I'd like to mention the contribution to the market square refurbishment. +Erm Jim asked me if we could pay up er as soon as the job had been done to help them with their cash flow situation district council. +Erm I I've allowed Don to have a jacket as he was getting soaked . +Erm +Out of interest madam chairman,does that mean we've paid the total amount that we we said that we would contribute? +Yes. +So on the second stage of the refurbishment they're going to pay for the lot? +Yes. +Er the account of contribution towards cost of the installation of two new footpath lights, this is on the footpath that runs between the School, Church Street side and the minster. +Er there was a lady fell over about two months ago on that footpath just at the beginning of the winter, and the cathedral council offered to pay for the installation of a light and what we did we contributed seventy seven pounds which is sixty including V A T to enable a second light to be installed because of the two steps on that footpath, one at each end, erm +Did that, I can't remember that coming to the council, did that come to the council? +No, no the chairman erm agreed that one out of committee. +The reason for that is they wanted to go ahead and produce the two lights. +Erm, what happened was the cathedral council one light in at a cost of four hundred and fifty pounds but they couldn't afford the second light, so we got some money from erm the residents who contributed some money, we got some money from the school and there was a shortfall of sixty six pounds thirty one pence for the total bill, so the chairman er . +Er we do actually have money in the budget for the actual erm +So it may just +so it could actually come out of that couldn't it? +There is +Chairman chairman there seem to be when I looked at it there seem to a number of headings here that I couldn't account for and I've asked the chair of the finance committee, she couldn't account for them either, and I think it's, whilst I understand the reasons for going and I'm sure we would have approved them, I think it's actually quite important that all these small sums,wh when you add them up over this erm over this month and you look at them, are quite large over the budget that we have have already adopted and the things that we wanted to do, and it concerns me that some of these things which are maybe very sensible, actually reduce our effectiveness of doing things that the council's agreed that they are going to do this year and next year, the seventy six pounds here, the thirty pounds later on, fifty four pounds for large thorn plants et cetera, et cetera , and a hundred and fifty pounds over the budget on the Christmas lights. +All of those extra sums, if you total them up, we're talking about quite a lot of money over the budget and that's why I'm getting concerned because there seems to be some between what the budget said we were going to do and what a chairman here and a chairman there has agreed, and I I'd like to get it back onto position. +Yes I I would agree with that but I wondered, I think perhaps it should be the finance committee, I mean cos I understood that most of these these items are contained within the existing budget, because I mean the individual committees do have have the power to the monies within their own, and I it has it I would agree with Peter that if we have gone over and above the that the committee were working to but I understood that that was not the case, so I . +Would you like to comment on that . +Yes. +There are a number of areas erm John expression was and yet it is possible to find the monies. +The the problem we had is because if in December, when we put the Christmas lights up for example, to use that as prime example, we put one erm harness I think it's called on the tree, it was absolutely pathetic. +Erm so the Chairman erm erm agreed to this additional purchase. +There was no meeting in in erm +December. +in December so it wasn't actually possible to to sort out these these queries. +And I accept there are a number here of items, I mean there's er another one that Peter mentions which was the er large thorn plants to discourage the children from climbing the newly erected fence at the nature reserve. +The problem there was the children climbing the fence and with just having spent five hundred and eighty pounds putting a fence up, spent another fifty four pounds although it's not in the budget, I accept that, er was er a necessary expenditure which I took a decision on straight away because I didn't want to see our five hundred pound fence being knocked down within a week of being put up. +So I I accept there are a number of items here which I discussed with the chairman and he agreed to. +But, I I agree. +any more comments on the financial statement and the bills for payment now? +correspondence. +Right that's +Two items. +Two items. +one of the quotes a new mower from +Having received three quotes from three different companies, I wanted the company chosen to agree that they wouldn't exceed a certain price and they have confirmed that the mower we've chosen will not exceed eighteen thousand six hundred and sixty eight pounds and this is for everything, this is the mower including the new cab erm and all the fittings that we wanted included on mower. +Right items correspond +actually agreeing to that quotation, I wanted to be sure what the other figures were. +That was done at a previous meeting, it was +Yes +I don't +You're not agreeing to it are you? +No we are. +are we ? +It's already been ordered. +Oh it's been ordered? +There there was a a to Madam Chairman where we thought that erm three quotations should be retained, +Mm. +erm I can't recall erm any quotations having been put for approval but neither can I find anything +No. +the last council meeting erm so I'm a bit confused as to where we discussed it. +We'll find, while he's just finding that look there's just one more item that's erm a Christmas card from so I'll pass that round so you can have a while we're just trying to find . +Perhaps it was the October meeting, I can't remember. +No. +I don't think it was. +But I don't know +Madam Chairman I recall giving three quotes, twenty one thousand something, nineteen thousand +something and eighteen +Oh well +to confirm that I I've heard it somewhere I mean +I'm sure it was one of the meetings . +It was. +Mm. +But wh well what are you looking for now, to see if we actually made a decision on it? +Yes. +No I asked you for formally for permission to go ahead and go ahead with the . +I've looked er erm +I think it was when we actually settled the erm the budget er for the various . +You know if everybody's happy that we've accepted the lowest quote then fine. +Right that that was just a letter for reference anyway +Yeah. +wasn't it? +Ca can you repeat that figure again please? +Yes sixteen sorry eighteen thousand six hundred and sixty eight pounds. +Thank you. +Plus V A T. +Plus V A T. +Right move onto corres oh no no sorry, representatives' reports. +Does anyone have any reports on any of the committees? +Just as a matter of interest I was gonna bring up onto the er planning minutes for the tenth of January but as I wasn't allowed er The I had a phone call from the electricity board following the erm erm discussions that we had about the power supply on Road, they'd received a follow up enquiry from the press, if you recall we expressed concern that we thought that secured following the harsh winter three years ago . +Sorry just what item is this under, is it are you +It's representatives' reports. +I'm representing you as the consultative . +The reason I'm I'm bringing this up is that the gentleman in question wants to come to the parish council and put on a a short video of the electricity board's er er activities in this area. +He's aware of concern expressed by Parish Council and he's going to see them and he will be very happy to come and er speak to us and answer any questions that we wish him to, so I advised him to contact the clerk to make arrangements. +I thought this would sort of save Steve having to write a letter as as he'd been er instructed to do. +I didn't know where else to get it in. +Erm Mr . +Er yes chairman. +The I'm your representative for the minster governors and I'll be slipping out later on this evening if I may of the installation of the new headteacher,that will be seven minutes time so if you'll excuse me . +Alright . +appointments which . +So perhaps we might need to do might want to until I return, which I shouldn't think will take too long. +So you won't be very long then? +No. +Right. +Er Christine. +Having said nothing about the er the charity erm erm the meeting on erm the meetings four times a year and we're quite but there are some available for erm people erm and particularly to erm we agreed a list of people who wished to give them Christmas gifts, cash but I'm sure they would help and and erm the names of people who who might need help er are always welcome so if I could just erm erm ask people to let me know if they know of anyone financial help . +Thank you, erm anyone else? +Well I don't know what this comes under but last or er last Saturday week I had several complaints about the old market square, you know where er and shop is. +It was an absolute disgrace, it really was a disgrace, and so as we'd been informed by somebody at , now don't ask me who cos I don't know, but from one of the public meetings we held, er they said you can phone up any time and you y the rubbish would be collected. +So I took them at their word and phoned them up. +Well the man nearly went through the roof and er, this was a Saturday morning, of course he didn't come, and in the meantime I had another replai re complaint about the path outside the W I hall, again which was a disgrace, not one person but several people. +And erm, and then on the Sunday morning, it was the local tradespeople erm who were taking down the Christmas trees and things, they had to clear up, they didn't have to but they did clear up the mess, it was a disgrace. +When the man came from I wouldn't know, but I just felt as a op coopted parish councillor that I should make my voice heard on behalf of all the people that complain to me. +Right. +That's all. +Right +I mean perhaps Saturday morning isn't the right time to phone but it was +probably erm the clerk could perhaps deal with that then. +Mm. +If they do query it, cos I mean erm it really was a disgrace and I I'm pretty tolerant. +I think madam chairman you'll find that there's in the administration that er an officer, he's left and I think replaced. +That's probably why she got the response she did . +mm. +Thank you, we can follow up that up anyway, erm +Only because so many people complain, I mean I just had to do something. +I did phone the hot line earlier in the week, er because the bin outside School hadn't been emptied for since before Christmas er cos I put a hub cap in there myself +which was in the middle of the road, but I phoned them and to be fair to them they responded very politely, very pleasantly, and dealt with it straight away, so erm +Mm. +apart from the fact by the wayside they did respond immediately . +I I've I've only got one report that I went to erm a meeting of the youth club erm in December I think it was, we just had sort of general discussions, nothing really to report erm back on that. +We discussed erm erm other places for people to meet et cetera has actually been closed down,some some problem with the isn't it, erm but they can't use it for the public so erm that was , it was just left that we'll have another meeting in March and looking around for alternative places to meet , but that's all to report on that. +erm can I suggest then that we questions from from the public. +Anyone oh one member of the public here, did you want to +No, no. +Right then . +We can't do item eight because Peter +is going to talk about it and he's gone. +Could we defer it erm and do the other items first? +Is that okay?number eight at the end . +Now we can do the reports on the car park. +Er Roger, could you do that one please? +Er yes. +W we have looked into er the question of car parking in Southwell and the possibility of charging for long term parking. +Erm the views of the er of the subcommittee are that that this does appear to be er perhaps a practical solution er and at the moment, er we are looking to erm make some of the spaces, certainly in the Church Street car park erm short term, I E two hours, certainly so the people who are who are making shopping visits, or visits to the banks et cetera would get the lower car park and the the people who are staying for a longer time would be at the top. +Er in relation to King Street er car park, there are there are complications in relation to er the usage of the car parking spaces erm and the health centre and on street car parking erm and we are going to do er further work in surveying the usage of those spaces and how we could perhaps better allocate them to ensure that there are erm spaces available for people who need to get to the surgery and the subcommittee will be reporting back to the council. +Erm the cost of capital costs of of signing er will also be looked at and then a further report from the subcommittee to the council . +Does anyone have any comments? +Could I ask through you chair er how this system is going to be policed? +That is the problem erm in so far as initially er we felt that it that that the onus would be on the individual, I E if it's a short term stay car park they would not use it. +Erm and one would have to see the the effectiveness of that. +What one doesn't want to do er is is by having to police the situation cause a charge to be erm brought up against the council. +Erm so it's a question of how one can best do it, but initially it would be er the onus would go on the individual to use the the spaces not designated as short stay. +I think the regrettable thing about the parking in in the town is the way that some of the disabled slots at the surgery are taken by the cars of people who are perfectly able to walk from the car park, and I think the great problem we're going to have is we're going to rely on the public spiritedness of our fellow townspeople and there does seem to be a fair group of people who are extremely selfish when it comes to come to parking. +Well shall I tell you that a certain member of the er medical staff, you know they've got bollards where the staff can put their cars in a certain place, and one member of the staff came out and said, please remove your car it's in the staff parking part, the person said, yes I even had to move the bollard. +Well I mean how do you win +I'm not sure. +I think we have quite a task of public education . +I don't know what happened but I think . +The problem in the doctors' surgery, I mean you've got people taking ill sick children round there with high temperatures and , and they do tend want to park close to the surgery, er and if they see a space they will obviously use it. +I think it's a difficult situation, I mean I know in er in Nottingham now, if the car parks are full, you actually get directed by the attendant to use a disabled space. +Erm so it does mean that as parking becomes more and more congested, it the subject does become more and more topical. +But I agree with Stuart, I think what we've got be careful is that if we're gonna introduce something, it is actually erm capable of being enforced and it's very difficult to see us an enforcing agent. +If I recall er when that er the King Street car park was given to the town by the benefactors we did want entrance er at the top end of the car park for the people who shopped which saved a lot of people coming round that dangerous corner where you know we've had one fatal accident there, and I just wondered whether we should take this under the umbrella while er we're actually discussing it. +Well that's interesting because yes we have we have discussed that and I don't know whether the er the clerk wants to comment further but I think that is absolutely right and and if that could be taken further it would be of very positive benefit to you know the car parking problem for those people who want to shop on King Street and have difficulties in find a car parking space . +The district council actually commented to me that they'd like to see that entrance opened where that er derelict building is at the top end of Church Street car park, which would be an ideal entrance. +We did nearly get it through once didn't we, years ago? +No, no. +I can't remember what snag, I think the person or something, I can't remember details but we nearly had an entrance at that end of the car park which in my opinion was you know, a lot of the people +There is an entrance at the moment. +The top of the top of Church Street car park through +top of Church Street car park +to King Street. +Well how +There needs to be an entrance there then? +No, no. +For pedestrians you're suggesting, not +Pedestrians. +Oh yes oh yes pedestrians. +Oh yes, sorry . +Well can I say that er we'll we'll take that on board rather more positively, +Mm. +er at the subcommittee and report back. +And and can the clerk look into the details when this, I think . +Yes. +You know, there should be some document somewhere. +Erm I'd hate it to er we get charging away and +We aren't intending to charge. +No, well income from that? +No we're not, no we're not er +Anyone else anything to add on that? +No? +Purchase of play equipment for Gardens playing field and the recreation ground. +. We have actually erm got a number of leaflets and brochures on play equipment but erm as was mentioned at the last meeting I was going to get together with David and the clerk to discuss future plans for play equipment but we haven't actually had a meeting yet cos we're still getting information from various reps and playground equipment companies and erm we'll leave that item for now. +Erm item sorry +Wh while you're on that madam chairman, I've had two persons er contact me as regarding, you know playing field and er it's a no go for dogs isn't it, and th and we therefore the people have mentioned they had to go down the side of the playing field onto the onto the old , and er have we an obligation to er to pave not pave it but er make it, it's a very steep bank, a very steep old ladies daren't go down, and they know they're breaking the law by taking the dog in the in the er recreation ground, and I just wondered whether we had an obligation to er . +Those people with dogs in that sort of situation are very welcome to walk through the playing field and then out the other side and away, I wouldn't stop them going over from that entrance to the to the top entrance . +Well +and er I was just wondering we we ought to do something, I mean these poor old dears have adhered to what we have said and facilities for them to get down onto to the er the . +I would accept that bank is very steep, +Yes it is, it is very steep. +Erm erm it's not a very . +greasy you know,terrible, the poor old dears daren't go. +They're they're tongue in cheek going across the recreation ground, thinking that we're going to pounce on them because they're not allowed in there. +So you know, it's a for them. +I would say I think that's a very good point chairman now can we ask perhaps either our groundsman or or or whatever to look at it to see if something to make it safer for these these people to er get access to . +I was going to suggest something similar but erm, can we say is is it public footpath er +Yes well it +sort of track are contacting the people who done a very good job on the on the public footpath erm and that was actually going through our land, and they done some steps with erm you know erm wooden erm supports in them, er maybe in in conjunction with, was it ? +Was it the ramblers? +Er the ramblers they +The ramblers did it, the Newark ramblers, they did they did the one at the bottom of Lane. +Now this is the one on Road. +Oh. +If you could find out who who did that and +Was it , and possibly give us some help but erm +Can I just make one point er all the footpaths need rain so it might just be +but conditions at the moment are just very bad I think generally anyway. +Mm. +Any more on on that subject of the erm playground, no? +Shall we put in item eight now as Peter is back. +back to item eight then. +If you'd er allow me to go back to item seven briefly. +Erm this news is until twelve noon please tomorrow. +Er the appoi the governors have just made an appointment of erm to the headship of who's the current deputy head, senior deputy at ,he'll be taking up his appointment er at Easter. +did you say, not Flintstone? +mm. +I apologize. +Erm find some empty chairs. +. We still haven't got a name for this er facility, been dragging on for some time. +Mm. +We er actually do need to decide what the name ought to be. +Er we have got one suggestion here from Madeleine and that's sports park, anyone else? +What about the er centenary sports ground? +Well that would certainly be my favourite, we we'll be coming up to our hundredth anniversary aren't we fairly soon? +Erm really this has been to a large extent I think a parish council initiative and I'm sure all the members of this council are enthusiastic supporters of grassroots democracy in the role of parish councils. +a few years er beyond er our why not celebrate our own centenary? +high profile +I think centenary park has quite a ring to it. +No centenary park not centenary sports ground then? +That's a bit of a mouthful. +Centenary park. +Do was there any other suggestions? +Cos we ought to decide tonight +because it's been going on a long time . +Centenary,a centenary in our parish last year wasn't it? +The centenary's this this year +Eighteen ninety four, the local government act. +It had a stormy passage through parliament. +It created parish councils. +It's an ideal name. +Does anyone have any suggest any more suggestions? +Yes madam chairman. +Er centenary seems and I know we are round this table +and I was thinking of the benefactor who actually offered this er +facility for for us to take it up, and er I would like to see may be er some something incorporated, there was one suggestion of a Bramley park or something of that nature wasn't there in those suggestions we had, have we still got that one, could you could you just er inform me what it really said? +Erm I don't know, we didn't er did we formally +If we decide on the first then we can decide whether it's a park or a sports ground or or what shall we do? +Shall we shall we put them to the vote, how shall we do this? +Well I I'm I think that er I'm less worried about dating it cos I think it actually quite important to date it, like the war memorial ground and actually fairly closely although it's not actually dated to the end of the war, I mean it was nineteen fifty two when it was established. +But it ties it in to a date and I think in a similar way, erm centenary which is the only thing we're going to do offic I think that it could be the only thing we do to celebrate our hundred years of existence apart from a small exhibition in . +Can I make one more suggestion one, to combine two of these to call it Southwell Centenary Park, would that make it any better? +Well it's just another idea. +There were comments last time about trying to give it a name so people realized where it was. +That it was in . +Or you could call it Brinkley Centenary +But is it just the centenary of the parish council, that's why I thought of the Southwell bit but what do y , what about that +Can I ask madam chairman, is it is it for anything else except football? +I don't know. +Well facilities for anything else, other than football? +I think the answer is yes. +Mm. +But it's football initially cos they've shown an interest and I think that the pitch is there for anybody . +and the summer uses . +Given our advancing years John croquet. +Well what, shall I read what we've got so far then? +Excuse me,do won't the schoolchildren asked at one stage +Yes, yes. +didn't they come up with anything? +Nothing. +I phoned them last week and said you know have you got any suggestions, and they said they'd come back to me and they haven't. +They're too busy on the national curriculum. +The I mean there's not a huge choice here is there, we've got two or three words , you've got Southwell Sports Park, Centenary Park, Bramley Park, Brinkley Park, erm what do you think, shall we have a vote on it, how shall we do this? +Can I propose that we vote either to go for Southwell Centenary cos I think they are the fav either or, and then we also have another vote for Bramley or Brinkley and then we have a vote between the winners of either of those two, +because then that gives us a chance of voting for a for a third option. +Is this is this matter madam chairman +is this matter urgent or important or is it urgent and important? +Well I think that it's gone on a long time and it's not +It has. +it's not that hard to decide a name, I think we ought to +Well I think that what you're in danger of coming up with is a camel. +Erm no seriously I think it really shouldn't take long, you're quite right to sort this matter out but I think three people really should go away and come back with a suggestion or a couple of suggestions. +Yes. +Because you're going to get into a situation where you're taking amendments to the amendment and you well with great respect I think you would be better to duck out at this stage. +But we did mention this at the last meeting didn't we? +Mm. +Mm. +And we did put forward ideas then as well. +Well as I say, I think three people would make a better of it and come back with their recommendations.. +Let's let's let's ask who would like to vote on it now then. +Who thinks we should decide it now? +Chairman, we have something on the agenda. +We're going to name the sports ground, I think we should stick to the agenda. +We should name it . +Can I ask you a que Erm it seems silly to me to call it anything other than by the name of the place where it is. +I mean it seems stupid to call it Bramley . +Brinkley, everybody knows where Brinkley is. +Or if they ask for Brinkley, people can be guided there. +It's er sort of like calling a place in Easthorpe Westhorpe . +I think the fact is that er we are in a situation where up and down the country parish councils have been er doing things and organizing events and er providing facilities to mark one hundred years of er er of parish local services +and this particular project, a lot of hard work has gone into it by members of the parish council and er I think it's perfectly appropriate, and the ground was bought, it wasn't donated, er it's come of the er erm the funds that parish council receives from er residents and I think that it's perfectly appropriate that it should mark one hundred years of parish local government. +We have the county council and the district councils telling us what a good job they do at the present time, spending a lot of money in doing it, we have provided this largely out of our own efforts, we've got grants from er other bodies, I think it's something that we should properly erm hallmark as an initiative of this parish council to celebrate one hundred years of parish government, and I would propose centenary field. +Centenary field. +the reason I stated that is there's plenty of football grounds that are known as fields. +Erm a park tends to give the impression of being like a memorial park, erm equally it's not just earmarked for football, which is it could be er seen as just that, the idea was that it would provide facilities for all types of sports and interests throughout the er throughout the area, particularly er girls, I know girls play football but there's a lot of interest in er sport particularly hockey, and I personally wouldn't like to see it just dominated by football. +Erm so the term field I think is perfectly acceptable to mean all things to all people. +Erm +a ground +Well +Southwell, I mean Centenary Sports Ground. +Well le , shall we take a vote on the first word and then decide whether it's a park, a sports field or a a sports park or whatever? +Chairman before before we do that could I just make an observation on +Yes. +what er Councillor said. +I think er he has a a very valid point but I think whatever we call it, it doesn't include the location. +The location's going to be appended. +Mm. +So if we call it Centenary Sports Ground, the next thing that will be added to it is Brinkley, the Centenary Sports Ground, Brinkley, which is fine. +And I think erm that the issue of location is going to be resolved anyway whether we add it to the name or not. +Yes quite right. +I mean clubs that are arranging fixtures will be responsible for telling, they'll know where it is, and they'll be responsible for telling people who are coming there where it is. +We don't need to go into +address, I used to play for Caythorpe Cricket Club, half the clubs used to go to Caythorpe in Lincolnshire before they found us . +If we eliminate the name of the place as being the first word, we're down to Centenary or Bramley then. +You wouldn't? +No. +Well can somebody suggest on this thing cos I'm so confused now. +Well could we have centenary title +Right yes. +I will hold with that. +Right who who thinks that the word centenary should be in the title then? +Okay. +Seven. +Do again? +No. +Well you should really. +centenary being in the title . +So centenary's got to be in the title then, yes? +Next word, is it going to be a sports park, a field +or a sports ground? +Weren't you going to ask weren't you going to suggest that three people choose this? +What about Centenary Field Brinkley then? +Well we know it's at Brinkley don't we? +But that will be added, we don't need to discuss that . +Right the next word then, should it be field or a sports park? +Or sports . +Or sports ground. +Ground, right then. +Doesn't it continue erm dribbling down the field now we've got the ball rolling, could I propose sports ground? +Right. +And I'll second that. +Now who who who's in favour of sports ground then, being the next word? +right, and who's against that? +So we now have Centenary Sports Ground then. +but why is it necessary to, why isn't the Centenary Sports Ground and it's at Road. +You know why is Brinkley so important? +Brinkley is where it is . +Is it Brinkley? +Do we have to ? +go down the road it's got Brinkley up. +You've got to have a correct address David. +Centenary Sports Ground on the notice board, you know that it's Brinkley. +Oh yes. +you've got a road sign. +Thank you gentlemen. +Erm +Mr carry on. +voted on Centenary Sports Ground +Yeah. +Well the +Centenary Sports Ground. +No, we don't need to vote on on it any more. +Erm if you recall in our managements' erm in our discussions when I presented the last the last minutes of the er s the subcommittee which has purchased the ground, we agreed to erm co er co-work with two other two of the clubs sports clubs to establish a management committee, which we would then hope would take over management of the ground from the parish council. +At the moment, Centenary Sports Ground is owned and managed entirely by the parish council, on the parish council rates and as you know it's been planted and it's coming up well. +We need to move this into the next stage which is to get it managed for a sports field, sports ground properly. +And the management committee will do that. +The two clubs are I think are in the process of electing er members and have asked us to put forward two parish councillors to be their nominees. +So we're looking for two additional representatives on this parish council to be our nominees on the management committee, and the management committee will present us with proposals to buy the ground in due course. +Could I erm nominate erm Roger . +Would you like to +I I'm happy to serve as long as it isn't you know, I mean I I can't give a lot of time because er my time's so committed . +Anybo anyone else who wants +How about you David? +No I'm s no I'm sorry I couldn't er . +David I'd like to propose, but as you proposed him. +I'm quite happy to do it . +Perhaps +Alright do we do we need to vote on that? +Before you move on madam chairman may I make a suggestion general approval, presumably we will be erecting a notice board er at the ground er and I would think it would be appropriate having selected the name that we make er erm some statement on the notice board saying the facility was originally provided by Southwell Parish Council. +Similar to erm the accreditation that is er up at , with the help they've had from er er interested er people there. +I think that the parish council's involvement should be by by reference on the board. +I think chairman within our within our original budgets erm we're still awaiting +the provision of electricity and water to the site, but within the original budget and with the estimates and quotations we've had, there will be some money available for the erection of a small sign, so perhaps er I propose that we do that within the budget that we've already established for the purchase of the ground,wh which is within budget at the moment, so if there's any spare after the provision of electricity and water to the site,suggested. +But I think that er this er Centenary Sports Ground gonna be large enough for the public to see and this and wants to be on a smaller metal er edition that's there for er ever and a day. +Right. +You see my point, it's it's not a like a M and S or railway sign one small sign you know at the bottom or wherever. +Yes +in an appropriate position +this glorious name and just +I mean I'm not, don't get me wrong, I'm not one of these formal you know want's to everything but the idea of this is that we go we get it off the ground and then the management committee take over and run it, it will hopefully have two parish representatives, won't be overcommitted by being you know constantly hectored and badgered by people saying this is your ground. +Erm but I just thought that it is appropriate in the circumstances because we have basically provided this facility, that there should be erm +on the part of the public that this was a facility provided by the parish council, it's not just a sports club facility as will develop over the years, which is what we intended, but it doesn't belong to those clubs,facility was originally provided by us. +Is that it then? +It is. +Oh I'm sorry . +I have one other, can I reserve one matter to the end of the meeting because I wish to make a proposal which er would be erm I think ought to be taken erm in closed session because of the nature and confidentiality of the business and personal interests, so perhaps I can propose the closure of the meeting to the press and public at the end of the meeting and defer the final item an item relating to this matter at that time. +Item eleven then,. +I think all they want to do is kn is the existing one needs pulling down, am I right? +And then they want to build a new one where the old one is at the moment. +Right. +They've actually drawn a very detailed plan for it, shows us where the war memorial recreation ground +Where it was. +and, yes where it is, er and it says,please find enclosed plan for mower store, present wooden hut is inadequate for our requirements . +Erm they're going to pay for everything, they're going to build it, they're going to submit planning application, they're gonna do everything. +So all they're asking really as you're the landlords, do you have any objection to them building a new er mower store? +How big is it ? +How big is it chairman in relation to the existing shed? +Be the same size? +It'll be slightly larger. +When you say slightly larger will it be more visible or, I mean the present one is partially hidden in actual fact . +The measurements are eight foot by nine foot. +It's on the same site and everything, to be honest I've never measured the old one. +Green felt covered concrete roof, red bricks to er local authority local authority +erm doesn't given any more details than that, but it's red brick to local authority approval, so they're going to submit it to them for them to agree that it fits in . +I think one of the problems is they had a break in and had quite a lot of gear stolen, and that's why they want a concrete roof, so they can't er get in through the roof. +I can understand that . +it'll come up again at the planning meeting anyway? +This is just asking us for permission for them to apply for planning permission. +Right, we'll move on now to item twelve, Southwell Tennis Club, permission for floodlighting. +I believe we've had a letter +asking if we will contribute towards floodlighting, is that it? +What they're actually asking for is that whether we would be able to help them by arranging for a loan on their behalf, they would service the debt at this time, so I might suggest chairman that we revert it to the finance committee for +Yes can we put that to the finance committee. +As a matter of urgency I think chairman,be because if we're going to apply, we need to apply for the first of April +credit approvals now get taken up so quickly because the government doesn't let much money borrow erm much money to be borrowed parish councils unfortunately so we need to do it fairly urgently if we're going to get it on the list, I think the list is already about ten parish councils long. +When is the next finance ? +We were hoping to erm organize, arrange one quite soon. +So this . +Right, okay then. +Erm, maintenance of rights of ways in Southwell, item thirteen. +It's just a letter from the county council about footpaths, erm shall we +This department has been running an experimental scheme called project. +This project was set up by the county council and Countryside Commission to experiment with new approaches to path maintenance. +Due to the pilot nature of the scheme it is only operating in a few selected areas initially, which is why your parish has not been contacted. +This project has already demonstrated the positive benefits of working with both parish councils and the farming community. +The work is due to finish in May nineteen ninety four and the results assessed. +After this time the rights of way team have every intention of working more closely with parishes and farmers throughout the county Am I right in saying that people talk to us about this? +I think it's do with us taking over the foot the footpaths isn't it? +Can can you say more on that . +What will basically happen is we would organize the clearance of footpaths within Southwell boundary, and so they would give us an amount of money each year and then we would er take on , we would nominate which footpaths are to be cleared, we have got far more ideas than they have in Nottingham need attention. +But they were quite happy to come along and discuss it with the parish council erm and . +Am I right in saying Women's Institute, don't they go round and checking up on sorry erm footpaths? +And what happens about re repairing of stiles and all that sort of business? +A at the moment what happens is individual people report back to the clerk, +Mm. +the county council's responsible for footpaths. +I know they refer to don't they? +ramblers +Mm. +I think they're erm +But house er erm what is that that's the footpath people isn't it, they always come and repair things if they're told, at least they sh , but obviously they have to work in collaboration with the farmers, er concerned . +controlled by the county council +Mm. +erm and they've got the responsibility of all the footpaths in the area. +I think what they're trying to say is if it was more localized it would be easier . +Yes, but they've still got to keep in touch with the farmer concerned or farmers +Yes. +they can't just say we're going to repair the footpath. +Then it will be the parish council instead of the county council. +But you've still got to liaise with the farmer or something. +Yes, yes. +But I would do it rather than +Oh I see yes. +Mm, mm. +a splendid initiative and it's similar to the way in which the district council is now devolving responsibility for public toilets, and I'm delighted that local government reorganization has been given a bit of stir that districts and county councils to get their acts together. +I'd actually go a bit further and say yes we'd like to do this, can we also look after road maintenance as well, because the road maintenance is sent out to contractors, contractors are so busy, they can't actually do half this work, they've got a list as long as your arm, so pit pitfalls in in the pavements as well as as some of the motorways aren't being done because the contract's been placed, but they've placed it with the wrong people. +We know where the problems are, we can actually solve those problems, and I think that's where parish council actually far closer in touch with the people, because we're on the ground and there are fifteen of us +in the village and one of you know that's than than the county council which is over the river in house. +But I think I'd actually like to support that idea, I think we ought to er er write back to them and say it's a splendid idea, erm let's have more of it and and thank you to the local government commission for s er seeing to this after a hundred years. +Don't we want write and in fact get him to come to the next meeting then +yes? +Madam chairman, er just as it happens er I've I've been in conversation with Mr assistant +and ha and Southwell parish is a very big parish and I think I'm right is saying there are sixty seven footpaths in Southwell sorry +More than that. +and I don't want to, I don't want to get involved with a lot of money that we'd have to outlay for upkeep until we've gone into it thoroughly. +Mm. +Because at the moment, er I mean they spend a lot of money on various footpaths that I know of which are a tremendous er price so let's be a bit cautious you know, because er +I don't want to be saddled with a a great bill just for footpaths. +I think you we can ask him all these questions then can't we. +Will you let us know please when and maybe some of the footpath people, local footpath secretary or chairman +When when shall I get him to come to one our meetings. +Yes perhaps you'll let let me know . +Alright, now there's one +item on the agenda right at the end late edition, which is the byelaw on control of dogs, which I think is something we discussed years ago +but I can hardly remember what we decided but it seems that we've now got to +that we did agree that we would we would we would go along with so erm +ninety two +Yeah the minutes of the meeting of the nineteenth of February nineteen ninety two, that's an awful long time ago erm, and it is proposed to bring into force byelaws for district and parish council-owned land upon or as soon as possible after the first of April nineteen ninety two. +The byelaws as proposed would be for a dog ban at the toddlers' play area of the War Memorial Recreation Ground and for the Memorial Recreation Ground excluding the tennis courts and bowling green, the play area at gardens. +It was agreed that the byelaws for dog ban at the toddlers play area be endorsed and clarification be sought for the possibility of dog ban in other areas, which is included in the document. +There's there's quite a lot of information in on this proposal . +Right, so what what you're asking to do is to sign it and send it back? +agreeing that we should and send it back? +Mm. +Mm. +Who's this letter from then? +County council? +District. +Erm district. +Because I mean they're being e I've lived here twenty three years, this comes up every three or four years this dog business. +I mean I've written countless letters and nothing's been done. +I apologize for the urgency on this, but to get it through to the Department of the Environment it has to be lodged at the beginning of February and then up to then by by March. +What are they going to do about it? +This this this is because the the Department of the Environment lost the paperwork for a year erm because apparently the Home Office are un incapable of reading documents unless they're in order, and they take them in order and it takes them a year to read them. +And I I've got a letter from the Department of the Environment and the Home Office saying that, er and th and because of that it's taking them this long to actually get these byelaws effected. +There's no apology or anything, they just that's the statement . +I think Madeleine what enforceable by the district council law. +that needed the consent of the is it the D O E or +Yes Secretary of State. +and that has been a long time coming but it now appears to be +It's been twenty three years since I +Could I enquire madam chairman er is the same areas on that specific document the same one as we agreed in nineteen ninety two? +Mm I think so. +If they are fair enough. +Yes +Perhaps the clerk will check. +check through but I think it's exactly the same as what we agreed +Thank you. +Just before you close the meeting hold on +No well any way before we go onto that +Right. +can I just ask did the chairman respond to +The clerk and chairman +Right, could I ask + +Testing, testing, testing. +Alright okay. +What did, what did anybody do? +Did you do the migration? +No +I think the mi yes, no one did the migration one apart from the Dean, he did a famine, er essay. +Well I think what we'll have a look at is this er,mi migration essay. +Erm, what I'll also do, we'll only sort of talk for about twenty five minutes, about the essay, and then we'll look at sh writing short answers er, for the exam, +Erm, sorry, when are we having a tutorial next term? +Erm, I don't think we will be. +We won't. +I think this is our last tutorial for this semester +Right. +for development or integrational trade. +You may well have an ex erm, +One with another one. +a tutorial with you know, somebody else for health or banking or you know, whatever. +Yes, cos if you think about it, we've had two banking, we've had two everything. +Two, we haven't had two banking have we? +We've got two of everything or we've got two of everything to come. +We've got two management. +So that means that, okay, supposing we have a tutorial, does that mean we haven't got anything next term until the exams start? +Mhm. +Some lecturers, perhaps have some lectures, you know for +You may, you may have lec the lectures are supposed to finish at the end of this term, but if, you know, a lecturer has been ill or hasn't managed to get through the stuff erm, you may have some lectures next term, but er +They said that at, someone from third year last year er, she said that Professor is having an extra lecture you know, telling what's on the exam those things. +Well, if he tells you, he's er, he's in the min minority . +Er, he may, he may be, you'll have to, to ask him, but generally speaking he does have er +Yes, yes. +You'd think he'd er, target to finish early this term. +Yes, well, we'll just ask you to lecture us +Yes, yes, that's right, I mean he should, you know, the lecturer should say this is the last lecture of term. +The last lecture of the semester. +Now, what they try and do is finish at the end of this term, so you've got from now on until, mid- January to, to revise erm, but you may have +Or if you do +you may, you may, you may have the er, er, you may have some lectures, and possibly some tutorials next term, although I doubt it. +It just depends on how behind people are. +Okay. +Erm, so the title of er, this migration essay, is something I, what are the factors, erm, so in your opinion, no, not the right one, +I've got it here +Can somebody, can someone +what factors influence rural urb urban migration decisions in L D Cs, and how can they effect the level of unemployment? +Ah, right, okay, so what factors influence rural urban migration, er, in L D Cs and how can these affect the level of urban unemployment? +Okay. +So, what factors do influence migration in developing countries? +We took, categorize into economic and non-economic? +It does seem a sensible way to approach things, possibly. +What er, what sort of factors are important? +, differences of income. +Differences of income. +Okay, income differentials, yes, so presumably the larger the differential between urban and rural wages, the er, the more, or the greater the incentive. +Education. +Why, why education, I mean +Because, erm, the greater the education, er, supposedly increases your chance of getting a job, opens up more opportunities up for you, so erm, you know, if there's only a certain number of jobs, the one with the most education is more likely to get it. +Okay. +Erm, and all +Wait, wait a second, can we leave education. +What about you know, if, if someone is relatively well educated, and they come from an urban, urban rural area, why don't they get a job in the rural area using those qualifications? +Cos there isn't any. +Right okay, that's the er, that's the er long and short of it, by and large, there, there isn't erm, employment, er, there are very few erm, administrative type, type jobs. +Also to add to that is that erm, we know that a great of, basically agriculture's sort of under-employed, there's a lot of under-employment in agriculture. +And erm, so, the, there's more opportunity to actually improve your situation by being in an urban area, erm, by migrating even internationally to improve your situation. +Basically people are maximizing their situations in agriculture. +They're born into maximum situations. +Right so they're +In the majority of cases, I would say there's probably a few there. +okay, so the, there, what you're saying is that the, the rural wage is a sub a subsistence wage, which is im by definition, sort the minimum wage you require to live on and er, there are possibilities of much higher incomes else elsewhere, so the,the subsistence wage itself may well act as quite er, strong sort of push factor out of the rural areas, let alone erm, high wages in er, er, the urban areas. +Cost of migration. +Okay, what's, what do you mean by that? +Well, erm, there is a cost involved in moving from, physically moving from one to the other, and also when you have to weigh up er, costs of moving your family or the risks involved and things like that, so that's all involved in that. +Erm, and for some people, well for the whole of the rural economy, it's harder to, or they're in a, a lesser income situation, and it's also availability of credit, or access to funds is much, you know, people have less savings, and so forth, because they don't save. +They employ it, and put it back into the land, if they do make anything. +Okay. +So, so, you know, for a lot of, I wouldn't say a lot, but there is a, a group in the population that are basically concerned with just surviving in agriculture, and wouldn't even consider, even if they are, say have got a high IQ or something, they just physically can't migrate because of the cost. +Okay, yes, that's fine. +True. +Did, anything else? +Do they automatically get jobs if they move? +Nope. +Okay, so the probability of getting a job is going to be quite important. +Erm, the amount of information available determines, on the probability of thereby you can reverse it round, and say the amount of unemployment. +So like we know, we can, we see on television, the rates of unemployment say in France and Germany, and so forth, so that influences our decision to up say to Liverpool or Edinburgh somewhere, and influences our decision to migrate. +Now, it's a bit different, because normally we apply to a job in Glasgow, we might get it or we might not, but, you look at, we've got more of, of information, but, in less developed countries, that information is, even if it were collected, sometimes it's not even collected, erm, it's not widely available, so people's perceptions or hearsay from people who've gone before, is the information, and that's often erm, wrong. +And even if it was close to being right, say the unemployment is say, twenty percent, it doesn't account for like under-employment in the, in the informal sector and things like that +So is, is lack of information, or lack of relevant information, is that why we get this apparent paradox of erm, people migrating from rural to urban areas, despite there is in actual fact, twenty or thirty percent unemployment in the urban areas, and the migrants have very little chance of ever getting a job? +Is that is that a reason? +Yes. +Yes, does that carry much weight do you think? +Don't know. +Well there's one school of thought, says yes, that is why we get this apparent paradox of people migrating, right, when we actually have very high unemployment. +You know, what are you migrating for? +Well it's to get a job, to improve your living standards. +Alright, and perhaps the reason why people are migrating when there is very high unemployment is because they don't realize that there is such high unemployment. +But that sort of view has been, has been challenged in more, in more recent years with empirical studies saying erm, er, sort of rural labour forces is quite likely to migrate, or some parts of the rural labour force are quite likely to migrate right, and it is rational to migrate, even in the presence of very high unemployment. +But, the, what are they measuring? +How is unemployment measured, they're measuring it in the formal sector, and you can actually live by being employed in the informal sector, which is often not recorded. +Okay. +So, so, I believe it's alright to say well people will migrate in the presence of, it's rational for a person to migrate in the presence of, of high unemployment if high unemployment only refers to the formal sector, but it's not rational if it implies that it refers to informal and formal. +Well could it be, well, it still could be? +Can I just ask a question? +Mm. +Right, you said that the reason is, there's lack of information so, that's why people migrate, because they don't realize they're not going to get a job. +And the counter-arguments to this is that there isn't lack of information, people know they're not going to get a job, but they're still better off to move, so that's a rubbish theory. +Is that what you're saying? +Mm, that's right, I mean that's what, sort of people like Harrison sort of were saying, is that, it, it's still rational to move, even in the presence of very high, very high unemployment. +Okay. +Why? +Why, why is that the case, well, tell me, why might people, why might you move to a, if you were a rural labourer, why might you move to erm, to an urban area where you knew there were some jobs? +Because they're most likely to get social support if anybody's going get anything. +How, how do you mean Nadine? +Well if, if they start introducing measures to help the people out who are, if you're in an urban area like in a slum, they're more likely to help those people first. +Be it +I don't, I don't know +be it, the expected +interesting theory. +is about the expected wage, and he says that people erm, base their decision, a rational mind would base his decision on erm, probability of getting a job times the erm, urban wage rate, equals the expected rate, wage rate, and he's saying that, because urban wage rates are so much higher, erm, that unemployment rate can also be quite high, and the expected gains can still be positive. +Mm, that's right, because what's, what are Harrison's doing? +They're summing expected income over all future periods +They're, yes, they're, they're making a present value of +Mm, so they're, you're doing a present value expression. +So although erm, current rates of unemployment are very high, you may be prepared to erm, to, to accept unemployment in the short term, you know, because a year down the line, you may well be able to get employment. +You know, if, particularly so, if you're only on a subsistence wage in the first place. +You know, if not, you know, if you're very, very poor in a, in a rural area, you may think, well look, there's, there's this chance, no matter how, how slim of me getting a, sort of proper job in the urban area, thus you may well take that chance. +You could, you may, what you may feel confident in er, your employment prospects, you know, if you're the, the most able in the village or, you know, in your little sort of, social environment +Tribe. +Tribe, or whatever . +You know, you may, you may be the best, and therefore think, think you have a, or have a high opinion of yourself, and therefore try your luck, you know, if somebody must be getting those jobs it could be me. +Erm, rather than, so people may, may make rational decisions and this is what Harrison were taking about is that, erm, it still may be rational to move, even though there's very high unemployment, alright, simply because people may accept a period of erm, of unemployment if it means that they, in the long run, obtain a, a relatively high paid job. +Erm, we can do a little design round here. +Time on this axis, and wages rates, rural wage or against urban wages. +Now this is saying that that's the wage rate in er in a rural centre. +So if we just add up over sort of the time horizon of this person, this person's life, right, his expected wage in agriculture, right, it's going to be this, this, this area here. +Alright,if erm, if we now so this is going to be his sort of, his opportunity cost right, his wage rate in the rural sense is going to, to opportunity cost, and the sum of the opportunity cost over time right, is going to be the present, you know if we discount that by some er, if we turn it into a present, a present value, right, the present value of that sum there, right, will determine life times income in agriculture. +Right if we oh, ah right, let's not discount it, right, now let's just explain this again. +This is the wage rate in agriculture, right, now if we discount, sorry I've made a cock-up of this, that's erm, that's not discounted, right, if we discounted, it's going to look +Why just discount it and then? +Yeah with erm with the colours though that's what I was going to say, the thing to bear in mind is it's like choosing erm paint or wallpaper. +Mm. +You see a small sample there you think, oh yeah that that's quite good. +But when it's +When it's a big +when it's a lot bigger it's the the the shade +Mm. +Mm. +tends to be t to seem a lot darker. +All the colouring, a lot more bold. +You know, the larger the area. +sit down. +It's ages since I've been able to sit on the windowsill. +Is it? +Mm. +Oh the radiator +radiator is turned up. +Mm. +Mm. +have another go. +Right, the one you fancied was Spice was it? +Yes it was. +Right. +Mhm. +Having trouble with both these pens today, I left them in the car last night, I think they must have got a bit cold. +I've got borrow this borrow this blue one if you like. +It was working . +Do you want to sit down? +Yeah thanks. +Right. +well I can push this back against the +space again. +Right you you said you'd prefer a white head rail didn't you? +Yes. +Yes. +Yeah. +Erm there are two two other erm factors I've got to look at +Mhm. +to work the price out. +Erm I mentioned earlier chains on the bottom of the louvres. +Mhm. +Which they're er a little chains which which +Yeah. +Mhm. +interlink the louvres. +The idea behind them is that erm the louvres +Yeah they hang a bit more erm evenly. +Erm just difference they would make to the price. +These back ones, the so called concept ones are all machine washable. +Mm. +So it said. +Oh well. +Yeah I think th there are some there that aren't actually. +Oh. +That book's not quite correct. +Erm these are these are definitely. +Yeah. +Erm We've just the they've just been altered actually +Mm. +since Christmas. +I think yeah, the information that you see on here is incorrect I'm afraid,it's just +Yeah, it's just those. +Yeah. +They should have some stickers on saying machine wash washable. +Yeah. +I don't know. +But I'm fairly certain it's just those. +Yeah. +It'll be alright as long as as long as you keep them +Yeah, I could see your mother going +the idea behind this machine washable bit it's +Yeah. +for it's er places like erm pubs or +Where you've got smokers or you've got an open fire +canteens +or something Yes +Yeah. +Yeah. +More of a commercial thing. +Mm. +And erm we've just actually we've just erm I've not got a sample of it, we've just got another louvre called a which is erm a P V C it's more sort of similar to erm erm you know the the slats on a venetian blind +Mm. +similar to one of those. +Mm. +But actually in the vertical. +Mm. +Totally different. +But they can just be wiped anyway. +Yes. +Mm. +That was a job I always hated, wiping the venetian blind. +spend all day and still not get it out. +I thought the idea was to keep them dusted al if you can keep them dusted regularly then +Mm. +Feather duster's a good idea . +A tremendous range of choice though haven't they? +Mm. +You can colour coordinate almost anything. +The one in the in the you know the erm machine washable ones is an almost exact match to this. +I think it would I think the colour would fade +Yeah probably. +You'd have the same problem with the blinds you're trying to avoid with er +And I know white discolours as well but then I think . +No I'm not keen. +I assume you didn't want to think about the kitchen? +No. +. +Yeah. +that's one place you would need it to be washable. +We've got a blind anyway +Given the Yes. +Mm. +which you just pull down to wherever you need it in the Summer. +Erm yes, one other thing. +Erm it's affects the price. +Yeah. +and that's the erm width of the louvre. +Mhm. +The ones that you see in the book they're three and a half inches. +Erm the other one is a five inch +Mm. +which is kind of width. +Yeah. +Mhm. +Erm it's entirely yo don't to your own personal choice which one you go for. +However, the three and a half inch works out more expensive. +Because you've got more of them . +Because you've got more of them. +Yeah. +Yeah. +About fifteen percent er ro roughly fifteen percent extra . +What width has your mum got then? +There's plenty of width there. +on a large window like this you'd you'd get away with the five inch one. +Mm. +look out of place. +It's only on the sort of very small windows that it would look +Mm. +Yeah. +too big. +Yeah all right +It's because it'll be that reduces then the number of pieces of machinery and the number of +Mm. +It also means that they'll draw back to a a narrower profile doesn't it. +Is that rotten dog snoring again? +She seems to spend all day asleep, I don't know what she does at night? +Does she sleep at night as well? +Yeah I think erm actually my there's probably nothing wrong with my pens, I'm trying to write on the back of this paper it's paper +Yes it's not Yes. +Mm . +Right the price erm f for erm that Spice, that comes out at one hundred and seventeen pounds +Mhm. +eighty pence. +Erm if that's sounds too much,th the way we could make it cheaper it erm not to have erm the interlinking chains. +The the cost of those on a blind this size is sixteen pounds. +Mm. +Yeah. +Erm if if you didn't have those erm what would happen instead is the erm, the louvres are a are still weighted at the bottom but it's a slightly smaller weight. +It's actually and it's actually sewn in into the louvre as opposed to the er the larger weights. +They just slot through and then the chains clip on. +So that one would come out then at erm just over a hundred pounds. +Mm. +It's up to you, do you want the chains on the bottom or? +Well I think so yes yeah. +You know you know what's gonna happen i if they aren't. +Well they would tend to swing around a bit more . +Well what tends to happen is erm when when the blinds erm the only time it's a bit noticeable is when the blinds completely closed. +Mm. +Mm. +Because what you n notice is there's about sort of erm getting on towards half an inch overlap between the louvres. +And that's the noticeable part because +Yeah. +Mm. +it erm it's you're doubling the material thickness and so you tend to you get dark +You'll see lines +dark strips. +And so you might see of them. +That's right some which m could possibly a bit wider than +Yeah +others. +Yeah yeah it'll look like stripes that are on uneven. +Yeah, the chains are more important the the higher the window is. +Yeah. +On a small window really not +That's quite a e erm a high window really isn't it cos it's +Yeah. +the windowsill is low. +You're sort of halfway betwe yeah between the an average size window and a patio. +And a patio yeah. +Yeah. +Go with the chains +I I would think it would actually hang better. +Yeah. +Mm. +Yeah yeah. +you that that price is okay then is it? +I would think so yes. +Mm mm. +Some people are quite shocked when they find out it's more than +Oh. +than than they were quoted over the phone but +Having having erm been into various things like this I think we're almost unshockable by now. +Er what we are gonna do and obviously we're in the process of, you're the first at the moment, is to have two or three quotations from different people . +Yeah sure. +To do it so erm if if you can let us have a copy in writing of your +Yeah I'll I'll erm I'll give you a full quote +And then erm if erm if you get somebody else in +Yeah. +who's erm who's offering offering you an equivalent system +Yeah. +to the one that I've come up with erm I E the white headrail and +Yeah. +which operates in the same way +Yeah. +and with a very similar fabric, then I'll try and my best to to beat their quote. +Understood. +You know, we don't like to be beaten. +Well no. +Although I've no doubt you know better than we do what the opposition are +Well +are offering or not. +I think we're all pretty much the same actually. +Yes. +Yeah yeah. +Yeah well +My blinds are in my house erm none of them are blinds +Mm. +because I bought them all before t I started +Right. +started this job and er I I've got erm +No I haven't approached them, I've contacted Blinds haven't I. +I don't know who you've +I've got a list upstairs of various people I've got one person +You've only got one Yes you've got somebody coming +I got my I got my vertical from the one at Newark and the venetian blind centre. +Yeah. +And erm I don't think there's a lot to to choose from actually . +Yes we were gonna go in and see them weren't we? +I d I don't know. +Yeah. +You did the phoning I haven't got a clue . +. +Yeah they've got books very similar and I think they're pricing structure's pretty similar as well. +Yeah. +Mm. +roughly the same, I expect we shall go with you. +Well be more essentially the the material +The only thing that I've just thought about actually is window wh in the me on the measurement side rather than anything else is that I haven't Because we've just had those windows replaced, I haven't finished decorating around the top. +This wood- chip paper does It's fairly thick isn't it as a paper, will that make a lot of difference to your actually measurement that you make. +I know it's about about that much isn't it. +Yeah erm w what I've done, I've measured I've taken an exact measurement, +Yeah. +from the lintel to the +And obviously it's go it's gotta be +And the blind is then made approximately er twenty millimetres shorter +So that it'll allow for +So we're talking about three quarters of an inch. +Yeah. +So th +Cause o the the frame at the bottom is gonna +Yeah it's guaranteed to to clear the sill +Yeah just ab I just thought I'd mention it just in case. +Yeah. +And also when I took the measurement, I took actually took it +You took +from the smallest and also +Yeah. +That lintel, there's quite a big slope on it as well, +There is isn't there. +And it slopes towards the window so I've actually taken the measurement nearest the erm windows itself to be on the safe side. +In fact I bit silly because this was the only room I didn't bother to finish round the windows and round the doorway. +And I didn't make any mess whatsoever, I mean you wouldn't know replaced the window. +Yeah. +So I wished I'd done it all in the first place, now I've got to do it. +That was your mother. +Had had +Oh she wanted to know about the door. +we heard anything about the door. +I said no. +They were only gonna ring us if there was anything wrong and I had this horrible feeling at that point that that was the vet ringing up to say things had gone wrong. +It's number fifteen isn't it ? +It's fifteen yeah. +Yes you're actually e sitting outside the original house, as it was built cos we had a room put on for the the back here originally. +Oh I see. +That was the end of the house. +It's all a bit confusing now cos we've I've just finished altering the whole of the middle of it but this It was a twenty four foot long main lounge. +Yeah. +Just straight through to the front of the house. +With a fireplace in the middle, but they've now put dividing walls in, taken the old frame out from the back and this was originally built as an additional room on the back. +yeah. +But we've now moved the music things that we had out here, into the little room at the front. +Right. +Is is that er , +Turned this into a lou +that wall there er an original wall? +The one on the left is, the one on the right isn't. +I've only just finished building the one on the right. +on that side. +That was the cupboard under the stairs, it's now a cloakroom. +Yeah. +Yeah m my father in law lives on Place +Yeah. +and er I'm just trying to work out if it's the same style as this. +This is a four-bedroomed one. +They're very similar. +They're very similar . +Yes the ones round there are they're they're the same yeah . +They're the same pattern +The three and four bedroom . +People who knew us before and haven't been here since get terribly confused when they walk in and rather wonder everything has gone to. +Did that get too much heat when I was gone? +No. +They don't l they want more light. +Yeah. +Well they're not gonna get it are they. +No. +It's alright it wasn't the vet it was your grandmother. +I would assume by now that erm you know that they've finished operating and it's alright. +Cos they normally do them after they've done their morning surgery don't they, some time about half ten or eleven. +Yeah. +I think. +lampshade . +Well the other thing I was thinking of was if we if we felt we needed to put a new roller blind at the window +Mm. +I mean plain white ones whatever +No . +. +Although that's never a problem is it with large +I don't think it needs No I I don't think it really needs one but if we did . +Sorry where were you thinking of doing a roller? +Well I was just wo wondering about that window but I pr I think I prefer just a curtain and I don't think I could put both there because the roller. +I was gonna say y could probably do a roller in the same fabric as +Yeah +Mm. +It's just that I've I mean I want a curtain there as well because otherwise it all looks a bit heavy but I don't think I could put a blind down there because of the way +I don't think you'd get +We wouldn't No I wo +Apart from anything else, the door won't open. +No that's the other problem isn't it. +Yeah. +It's bad enough with a curtain rail on there. +the only other alternative would to actually put it itself. +Oh we've got the curtain is on the door itself. +Oh the curtain is on the door. +Yes otherwise the door won't open properly will it. +But the er the the cle +the clearance when the door is open to the the piece of wall there is only that much. +Oh I see. +That's a I I had to do a little bit of er adaption work on the on the curtain rail put that on. +Right. +There's your quote then. +Get me glasses get me glasses. +Alright so that was the colour wasn't it +Yes. +the Spice White? +Erm +. +So I've quoted you there for the chains. +Five inch width. +Five inch yeah. +The three and a half inch is as I said it's approximately +Yeah. +fifteen percent extra. +Mhm. +But the five inch would be okay on there. +Yeah. +This is just this bunch and control . +I you decide to order it, which side split or whatever and where you want the controls +Aha I see. +Yeah. +Well we we we'd want the controls on the left and we want them to be split . +We don't need to worry about that . +Mhm. +But that do that doesn't matter yet. +Right and a white headrail as well. +Yeah. +Mhm. +A hundred and seventeen eighty. +That is that is a complete price including VAT and that includes includes +Includes fitting. +fitting on them as well. +Mhm. +Who comes and does the fitting? +You? +Me. +Right. +Same person. +O odd occasion we'll come across people you know who yes he seems to be the right person and then somebody else turns up to do + +Yes your is cancelled about er twenty thirty stop. +yeah, outbound +In or outbound? +In or out? +Well, in that case we'll forget it. +I've got the inbound one over there +Yeah unless they're referring to tomorrow's?there's a crossed line somewhere +He's coming from Moscow tomorrow +Mm +he's changed his tomorrow to Moscow +I'll go get the er, programme, get that er, for tomorrow, Okay, such as it is. +Right, done that, check the kettle +two four now, the wind is ten knots,one zero kilometers,three thousand, temperature eight. +one zero two zero +currently on the heading of one zero, one eight maintaining +Yes,you turn right to the two one zero, clear two thousand feet altitude, to one eight twin zero, two zero. +No, no just keep going +Hello +Hello, seven miles,strong there, two four, Victor, Delta, Michael +Continue approach,radar, when it picks bursts cue position in get transferred radio beeps that keep jam , to land, and two obstructions, +Will they ring us with that tomorrow morning? +If you know where to look you'll see it +Victor, Delta, Michael, +is established +Okay,one zero, two zero,, two four eight feet +Oh, God, I've lost half my +one zero, one zero +lost one circuit of the runway line +It looks all there to me. +Yeah, they are now, but they're on ten percent +Ah,I've never heard of you +I was actually reading off it +six over +to Romeo, Delta, Mike mark final +Victor, Delta, Mike, getting on runway two four, the wind's two one zero degrees at twelve knots +Victor, Delta Mike, thanks +The British National Corpus, sounds like forensic doesn't it detail? +Are these for tomorrow, Keith, are they these strips already done? +Yeah +Where's the air traffic pen gone? +Oh, I've got two, I'm greedy +particular green one, like that +G B Fan, till he was scrubbed, that was supposed an outbound, wasn't it? +Mm +What do I hear a please, but don't come again +Two one zero eight, ten knots, +Thank you +Hello, Sharon. +Tomorrow's programme. +G B Fan, we've got it coming in from Stuttgart at eight twenty. +Where's, where is the aeroplane at the moment, do you know? +Well that's what I felt, but then we had that outbound planned, which was cancelled +In a minute, if you've got a minute, er, twenty from Munich +Yes, so that if he's coming at twenty hundred tonight, he can't be +Victor, Delta, Mike, locate left at the end. +Proceed to open +So G B Fan inbound from Munich tonight is scrubbed? +Yeah, maybe, maybe they got the, the, the oh, eight twenties, and the twenty twenties er confused there yes, if, have you +Let's just have a look +Yes, that's okay, it's just that originally you see, we had an outbound tonight as well mhm, yes okay I think we can pick up the pieces from there. +It seems to make a fair amount of sense. +I'll just get these things to you. +Okay well I won't be keeping the programme, so I'll probably give it back to you in a couple of minutes. +Okay bye. +Yes, eight twenty, it was eight twenty tomorrow, not tonight, so +Next one should be in ten minutes. +Whereabouts have you been to on your travels, to take recordings, what sort of places have you been to? +photography, I personally talking to people about jobs +Mhm +quite a lot of other ones,er, other people have done, people making speeches, +Mhm +tape recordings, recordings of the whole union's A G M. +Very interesting, thank you. +And they just send tapes to you, you know, they don't? +Oh, they do, yeah. +No, I ju I just, I was just thinking, a lot of these things if you, if you are actually recording interviews you're gonna get a very stilted, +Yeah, well +Yeah +pass the message? +something just approaching from the south two thousand feet one zero one niner, and now turning eastbound er, via to pick up the M twenty five clockwise. +And er services. +used rates as well +Zero, zero, one niner +These are obviously the ones that don't fly anyway +Hello seven three one eight, no Roger's off duty at the moment it's Chris here erm, he should be, hang on I'll just have to look at the watch roster and check up on precisely what his movements are, erm just look through tomorrow and I can find the right page in the roster here, er, two thir yeah, he'll be on tower, so he'll be in first thing tomorrow from about seven, seven o'clock onwards. +Okay then? +Well, we, we just sort of muddle along from day to day week to week, nobody tells us anything, we just have a guess and usually the guesses are wrong. +Don't know well, I mean, yeah, the basically factory's closed. +Erm, they've demolished all the north side, you know what used to be the dynamics and that's all gone, it's gonna become, you know, it's not very, that's becoming a, well, in the process of becoming a business park, but I mean, mean well, I mean, it, it, it's all executive erm, and you know business stuff and on the surface, you know, we're still reasonably busy with, with that sort of thing, but erm, no that, they have, the only one four six we see now is just on the company shuttle just you know until they complete the close down of the factory, they shuttle them up to Woodford, er, er, and back every day. +But that really won't last long much after the erm, well we don't know, I er, nobody really knows, I mean, British Aerospace has fragmented into all of these property groups and Rover and everybody's got fingers in the pie and we're not, we're sort of caught half way between short-term aims to make a quick profit from trying to get Shell in you know and that sort of thing, but I mean, we just need to talk about, nobody really knows what the long-term policy of the main British Aerospace Board is. +Whether to you know sort of try and pick up the guys who are getting thrown out of Heathrow and make a long-term go of it or whether in the long term, em, they want to flog it off for gravel and you know mining it for gravel and sending it for houses and you know, that sort of thing. +Erm, we get fed all sorts of information from various levels in and rumours from outside, not just the milkman, you know +Golf, Romeo, Alpha, Alpha, Romeo +Alpha Romeo +about er, ten minutes to land if possible +Yeah, yeah what time do you want to go? +He won't know any more either +Er, if we can make it one six nine O, with just er, +No problem,starting, temperature is plus eight,one zero, one nine +one zero, one nine +want to speak to Roger was that control, +They said er, he is +Who's he? +He's the chief, whatever they call it, the C A title is for +changing to one three two seven +I thought that was erm another chap's name +It may be, but you know, they've got several levels of management, one's the manager of air traffic services another one's the chief executive officer +Hello +Hello, London, er, Golf, Romeo, double Alpha Romeo, on a Hendon departure, please, +Okay hold the line right which was the one? +Golf, Romeo, double Alpha, Romeo, on a Hendon departure +five, four, one, one,seven six,frequency for that erm, one, one, nine, seven, seven +Heading five, five, four, one, one, one, one, nine, seven, seven, through loop, thank you. +Thank you, bye, bye +What's Dublin these days, is it Delta, Whisky? +Dublin is the I D +Yeah, course. +They're er, obviously gathering information for a big push then +Yeah, +There's a lot of gaps on this tape to edit +Whoever's got to do the transcription +Hello,, ah, I bet it's something I've just written down, isn't it? +Yeah, come on then yes, yeah, I've just that bit, +from Luton, +What's the signal? +the weather +Right +to the wind is er, two three zero degrees at ten knots, visibility is greater than one zero kilometers,three thousand feet, temperature eight, D L H, one zero, one niner +Okay +Thank you,altitude two thousand feet, +signal +You can go and have a look at the radar if you want? +Could +Do you know if Maria's down there, excuse me? +This plane, hello +radar, ten miles, most eight zero, six one +Continue approach +Roger +Yeah, bottom of the stairs, straight through that open sliding door, straight ahead of you, well,ju just, to your right +Chris, I might take the down +Oh, you're gonna take that +Oh, well not now, yes + +proportionately because when the cuts come it's the special need support that many of these groups need that was the first to go. +It was the help with literacy and numeracy, it was the help with English as a second language, it was the initial training that helped to boost an individual's confidence. +These policies have ruined the opportunities and dreams of thousands of people throughout this district and have been carried out with no regard to the drastic effects they have had on people's lives. +But wait, on the political horizon there comes a general election. +Panic in Tory Party central office. +What can we do to make it look like we care about the unemployed? +What can we do to make it look like we actually care about training? +The first thing you do is announce half way through a year that they're gonna put back some, but not all, of the money they cut from the budget. +There is no guarantee that this money will be available next year so training providers are now scrabbling around trying to work out ways of providing training up to the required standard in six months instead of the full year. +This from the party of so sound finance and forward planning. +What else do the Tories do? +They try and hide some of the total mess they have made. +They take some of the money they have cut from the training budget and use it to fund employment action. +One of the most blatant and invidious pieces of political skulduggery we have seen for some time. +Employment Action is a scheme that will take people off the dole queue and put them into full time work for benefit plus ten pounds. +With the best will in the world, no-one could refer to it as a training scheme. +A confidential Department of Employment memo states, the scheme will have only a minimal training element. +Even the Tech, which has trumpeted the fact that it has pushed hard for a greater training element, has only been enabl able to include such elements as health and safety, job search, an enhancement of skills relevant to the job that is being done. +One of the biggest farces of the whole idea is that the Tech proposals talk about using Employment Action in skill shortage areas. +This is totally illogical. +If you have a skill that's in short supply, you go and work for the proper rate for the job. +If you don't have the skill, Employment Action will never give you those skills. +Eligibility for the scheme is defined in such a way as to exclude the very people who've been worst hit by the cuts and to maximise the infl influence on the unemployment figures. +Women returners and those people on disability benefits are excluded from taking part in the scheme, even if they wanted to. +The timing of the launch means that ther if there is any sort of take up, it will have the greatest effect on unemployment figures between March and July. +It's no coincidence that this is the likely period of the next general election. +The Scheme is funded for eighteen months only and this means that the numbers will start to drop in October 1993 and that is the only good thing about this Scheme, because it'll make it easier for the next Labour Government to abolish it. +Employment Action has no stated aim except to provide the long term unemployed with an up to date reference. +Unlike the Government Training Schemes, funding is not reliant upon people finding jobs or gaining qualifications. +There is nothing in it for the participants except the opportunity to work for low or no wages. +The effect on those who are employed in the areas of work that Employment Action will concentrate on will be to increase unemployment and force down wages. +Participants will not have the same protection as employees and trainees as far as the Health and Safety at Work Act is concerned. +They will not be covered by the Race Relations and Sex Discrimination Act. +They will not have the right to go to Industrial Tribunal for legal redress. +Do the Tories really expect a responsible Council to take part in such a scheme? +Where are these participants gonna come from? +Who in this room would be willing to work full time for the equivalent of benefit plus ten pounds? +The Government have painted a picture of willing participants lining up to take part in this scheme. +This is pa at least in part due to the glossy advertising that they've launched at a cost of a quarter of a million pounds a week. +But, if as I believe is the case, the scheme fails to attract anybody, then what are the Government's alternatives? +They can either admit they've made a mistake, or they can make it compulsory. +They had to get rid of a leader before they could bring themselves to admit that the poll tax was a mistake and I can't see John Major going before he loses the next election. +So it's more likely that they'll make it compulsory. +Work by another name. +We've already seen it happen with the youth training. +We're seeing it happening with adult training and this is all from the Party that talks about choice. +In this district there are hundreds, if not thousands, of unemployed pe people doing the socially useful work, as the Tories like to describe it. +They are running our tenants and residents associations. +They are working in the voluntary sector and they're supporting charities. +The problem that the Tories have with this is that they still appear on the unemployment figures. +Employment Action was not designed to help the unemployed. +It was designed as a desperate attempt by a desperate Government to dig itself out of a mess of its own making. +It is trying to hide the fact that it's policies have bought pain, misery, the pain, misery and hardship of unemployment to thousands of people in the district and millions throughout the country. +We, as a Council, are not willing to take part in this shoddy scheme but we'll we will continue to work to provide high q quality real training to the people of the district and to work with business and industry to develop real jobs. +Norman Lamont said, unemployment is a price worth paying. +Come the next general he'll be able to judge the value of that crass statement himself as he and the rest of his cabinet are replaced by a Party that has policies to develop real training and employment opportunities for the people of and for the country, and that will be a Labour cabinet and a Labour Government. +Thank you. +Councillor +Nothing that this Council will debate today will show the despicable face of the Labour Party more than this one. +Sitting across on the opposite benches it is the Labour Party who shed crocodile tears for the unemployed. +If the truth be known, the majority of Labour Councillors, just like their Socialist friends at Westminster, show more allegiance to the Trade Unions than to the unemployed. +Labour like to talk about unemployment but, while the Conservative Government works to bring unemployment down, the Labour Party are busily embracing policies to put the unemployment rate up. +And how they dare to care about the unemployed when they would price people out of work, strike people out of work and tax people out of work? +hear hear +How can a group be taken seriously, or be considered concerned, when it openly rejects co-operation with this two hundred and thirty million pound scheme which will very substantially increase the number of opportunities for the unemployed in Britain as a whole and in in particular. +To suggest that Employment Action is merely to massage the unemployment figures is a feeble excuse for the Labour Group to it's conscience. +A great deal of emotive talk exists around the subject of unemployment and, just as there are many different reasons for someone becoming employed, there are equally many r different needs that the unemployed have. +Regrettably, many younger people have no experience of the work ethic within their homes. +Labour turning on its back on Employment Action will in no way help them gain the necessary experience to be employable, or to be equipped for further training for more advanced skills. +Why deny them the benefit of self respect and a sense of purpose, which training on such a scheme would create. +We all know the real reason for Labour Group's rejection of Employment Action. +It has nothing to do with the plight of the unemployed and everything to do with the power and desire for further power of the Trade Union Movement. +Our Labour Councillors don't represent their electorate, they represent the T U C and the vested interests of their own Unions. +Only the A E U have the courage to stand up against big brother, the T U C, warning against denying the unemployed a glimmer of hope. +To decry d decry Unemployment Action, claiming it to be work is, and at the same time supporting the Labour Party policy which would make it acceptable to receive benefit without training, but illegal to have a job without training, is a strange morality. +What is wrong with providing tr training through environmentally useful schemes? +It has much to commend it. +Even th your chief supporter, the T N A, on September the nineteenth agreed that it was far better, it was far better to use the untapped human resource than to load the ca th the cost on to the community charge payer. +The Labour benches had several new members and, dare I suggest, green Councillor , with no memory of the disastrous economic policies of the last Labour Government, or the ensuing distress that it's huge army of unemployed. +The party you support created such chaos that unemployment rose by a hundred and thirty one percent. +Yes, two thousand three hundred people per week is correct but that was week on every week for five and a half years that Labour held office. +Two thousand three hundred per week for five and a half years. +Rampant inflation, excessive public expenditure, lack of private investment because of ex excessive tax burdens, and to top it all, an industrial relations policy that brought this country to its knees, making it the subject of derision throughout the world. +They were the Labour's disastrous policies for this country. +In 1979 the Conservative Government was elected with a clear mandate to tackle the problem of excessive Union powers which was destroying the employment and the livelihood of thousands of people every week. +Conservative Governments have honoured that commitment in full and, as a result, continuous strikes, the British disease as they are known, have been eliminated. +The elements of success which have turned our economy round are quite clear. +The top priority to re reduce inflation, removal of Labour imposed barriers to employment such as Wage Councils, increased and improved training. +The Conservative Government since 1983 has created three hundred million, sorry three million, extra jobs. +Of course, you will never hear a word about success and achievement from the benches opposite. +About the fact that, under Conservative, our productivity has grown faster than Japans'. +That our strike record is the best in fifty years. +Our standard of living has grown faster than Italy, Sweden and Switzerland. +Our exports since 1983 have increased faster than France, Germany and America. +Isn't that the way forward to help the unemployed? +This Government has spent more money on training than any other Government si in our history, two and a half times as much in real terms as when Labour were in office. +Fifty new training places for every one under Labour. +Now let's hear something of the policies that Labour would support. +Remember, of course, that Labour and the Unions are as thick as thieves, so the gr Labour Group, just like its parliamentary counterpart, is incapable of making a single decision without the Union pulling the strings. +More than half Labour's M P's are Union sponsored, a hundred and forty, being the highest since 1935, and eighteen out of the twenty in the shadow cabinet are also Union sponsored and their paymasters will expect plenty in return. +Labour would repeal all sensible Union legislation. +What about Labour's training commitment? +Well, we've had three documents in eighteen months but none with a viable pound sign. +Labour only pledge, of course, to er to spend money on pensions and child benefit, so the shadow treasury tell us. +Unless, of course, you believe John Smith, whose alternative budget said, nothing for pensions but a two hundred and eighty five million for training. +Who do we believe? +Labour constantly block help to the unemployed. +They have passionately and consistently opposed the first guaranteed yo two year training programme for unemployed school leavers and thirteen Labour controlled Councils pulled out of employment training. +even forced it's skill centre to close. +Some commitment to the unemployed. +An utter disgrace. +Where to Labour stand on Training and Enterprise Councils? tries to stress how much they are in favour of them, but Mister is telling people to ease up. +Well, I'm happy to tell the Labour Group that tee the T E C's are alive and well and producing results. +Labour's half baked Skills UK Scheme would be a national organisation to direct national training. +Bureaucrats at every level instead of local TEC's dealing with local training needs. +Labour's o Labour's open hostility to employers will do little for business confidence and job creation. +Mister would impose sanctions on employers who did not follow Labour's wishes. +The proposed jobs tax would be a contribution by all companies to pay for centralised training funds. +Back to the bad old days when employers were so busy employing people to push bits of people round and see to inspectors that they didn't have anything to do with training an produced not one single job. +Remember, Labour Party, that no legislative approach has been devised that relates training to business needs. +Compulsion was mentioned by Councillor but he's too young to remember that compulsion was tried in 1960 +Councillor , compulsion was tried in the 1960's and 1970's. +It failed miserably. +It led to a climate when employers were forced into inappropriate training by m by numbers and mindless forms to avoid . +The most disastrous of all Labour's proposed strategy is the National Statutory Minimum Wage and at a modest assumption this proposal would lose seven hundred and fifty thousand jobs. +Such a policy would undermine the skill differentials which essential to maintain the incentive for individuals to train. +A minimum age would be the death knell of hopes for incru improving the skills of the British people. +Labour proved itself incapable of creating a sound economy when in Government. +When in opposition it has proved it's policies of a minimum wage, a jobs tax, social charter, support and and s er strikers charter that they would never learn. +As far as this Council is concerned, if you are unemployed you will get no constructive help from Labour. +Instead they insist that their ideas are simple. +If it involves training, boycott it. +If it curbs strikes, fight it and if it creates jobs spurn it. +Fantastic +Councillor +On nineteenth June 1991 the Secretary of State for Employment, Michael Howard, announced a new package supposedly to help unemployed people. +All this was happening and now this com here comes a Tory record. +All this was happening at a time of deep recession worsening by the day with unemployment rising to two and a half million, redundancies up by forty percent in the first four months of ninety one. +Bankruptcies, including voluntary and er company liquidations, up by seventy five percent in the first six months of this year. +Property repossessions in the Nord Northern region up by forty seven percent in the first first six months. +To exacerbate the situation, eighty thousand places were cut from employment training. +Whilst our competitors in Europe and elsewhere continued to push their training objectives forward, Britain remains the only modern Western European country which has neither national objectives for training nor a statutory work force and, as yet, no unified or progressive system of national qualifications. +The failure of Government to give a real to training arises from it's obsession with market forces and passion for privatisation. +The Government is depriving the country of much needed vocational skills and training necessary to revive the industrial decadence caused by the twelve years of Tory control, leaving the potential work force not only unemployed but unemployable. +Lord Mayor, Employment Action has been thoroughly debated at the previous Council Committee meetings, with all it's injustices brought to light. +It is a no wage work scheme designed cynical to the employment figures in the wake of pending general election. +We, on this side, are concerned about the plight of unemployed and are currently running training schemes to help them back into labour market. +In E I D, for instance, we run pre-vocational and initial training. +Both are customised to help the trainees progress to adult training. +Employment Action is by far from being impeccable. +It lacks the necessary ingredients of programme with a training element in it. +Even the TEC's have spotted this deficiency, many of them deciding to shun it altogether. +Some scare-mongering tactics have been adopted by the Tories to compel us into participating the emp in employment action. +All of a sudden they have become sympathetic to a work force, the very people who have been threatened with Government's legislation on competitive tendering. +Lord Mayor, I therefore support our motion. +Thank you. +Councillor +M my Lord Mayor +Thank you my Lord Mayor +Mayor, three months ago the E I D sub-committee Labour members rejected the Employment Action Scheme. +A month ago the committee Labour members rejected this Scheme and I still have an enormous sense of amazement and anger that the local, and I express local, because it's not a national policy, that the local Labour group could act in such a callous and spiteful way, putting political dogma, party political dogma, before the needs of the unemployed in the district. +And I doubt whether Councillor has read the papers. +I mean, I've read em very thoroughly and I've read the reports of the officers. +In these three months there has been nothing but support for this scheme, some of it qualified, but nevertheless support, that it should go ahead. +Even the T U C, only the T U C and the Labour Party have been completely negative and rejected it out of hand. +Our Council officers, and I refer to their report, recommended that we applied to run the Scheme. +They fully considered that there was merit, great merit, in running it as far as the Council was concerned. +And if you read the report, you can do nothing but agree. +Councillor has referred to the editorial of the Telegraph and Argos. +Can I just enlarge upon that because, and quote from it, by boycotting employment action the CoUncil's controlling group seem to have made a bad decision, prompted by a desire to score political points in the debating chamber. +hear hear +It is a shame that the local Labour Party, these are the editor's words, not mine, it is a shame that the local Labour Party has set its face against the scheme. +The Telegraph and Argos, I quote. +Well done the T and A +, bless , president of the A V W Engineering Union, gave a warning to the T U C against denying the unemployed the opportunity to join the Scheme. +And even , the Labour national spokesman, said to the T U C, it is unwise to reject the Scheme, it is not a good idea to say you will not co-operate with it. +The local TEC board, on which I think the leader of the Council serves +Yes indeed +Good. +Decided to bid to operate the Scheme providing there was a stronger training element and moves have been made in that direction. +TEC plans to use Employment Action as a pre-adult training phase, and Councillor , it intends to use it for those trainees who need extra help and resource, those that you referred to, those requiring language training, those requiring literacy and numeracy training, Councillor the very group that you referred to. +And Council officers say that this is particularly attractive in the situation and I agree. +One year unemployment action plus one year adult training would achieve the long term objective for those unemployed, with special needs. +You referred to those Councillor . +TEC has also indicated that appropriate project work for Employment Action would fall into such categories as child care, you agree with child care presumably, energy conservation, you agree with energy conservation, environmental issues, security, tourism. +Our officers say that this fits in perfectly with our plans for existing and new projects and I believe the officers. +So why oh why do the Labour Party reject the Scheme when it will cater for those unemployed they profess to care about, when it will cater for those projects of benefit to the community the Labour party profess to care about. +I've listened very carefully to Councillor and I haven't learnt a thing about the answer to various questions which were raised at E I D and and I ask it again, why do you really reject the Scheme? +All I hear by way of reply are vague comments about massaging the unemployment figures. +I think we even heard the cry, we want a minimum, we want a minimum wage, and everyone knows what that would do to the unemployment figures. +Seven hundred and fifty thousand to a million more on unemployment. +Is that massaging the figures? +My Lord Mayor, my Lord Mayor, I started by saying how angry and dismayed I was on the twenty fourth of July. +Three months on I er I'm even mor angry, appalled and disgusted at the hypocrisy of the members opposite because, if they really care about the unemployed, why don't they support this Scheme? +If you really care about the unemployed with special needs, if you really care about special projects for which they work upon, you should support the Scheme. +Quite frankly, you have time to change your minds because if you don't change your minds, those unemployed in with special needs will never forgive you and I certainly won't. +Councillor bring your remarks to a conclusion please +Councillor is on his feet +My Lord Mayor, I move under standing order A fifteen B that the vote now be put. +Thank you. +sec +those in favour? +that is carried, forty nine votes to thirty. +Those in favour of amendment B moved by Councillor please show. +Those against? +yes +That is lost, thirty to forty nine. +Those in favour of the substantive motion incorporating amendment A please show +Please show +Those against? +Some of them +That is carried, forty nine to thirty two. +In this Authority that one proposition stands to lose some fifty teachers to schools and it's ah worse in many other districts. +What's it's essentially about is getting rid of the most experienced teachers in the district. +Can that be good for education? +It can't surely, but it's what the Government want to do with L M S. Of course, they have a real agenda behind Local Management which is more to do with market led economy education, competition,, elitiveness, the end of the Local Authority. +And they're using the principle of devolution and delegation, of participation and decision making as a vehicle for bringing us about. +Councillor is on record, in fact not long after taking his job, that he doesn't care much for state education, he prefers , grant maintained schools,the assisted places scheme, which I'm pleased to say, Lord Mayor, we don't operate in this district and neither did the Tories when they were in power and I applaud them for that +hear hear +This attack is yet another divisive scheme +But Councillor , his first public statement was to support all those gimmicks and to say that he wanted an end to the three tier system in , turned his back on all our middle schools. +His only interest was bringing back grammar schools, that's really what he wanted to do. +Well, Lord Mayor, that's on no-one's agenda over here. +I'm working hard, with colleagues, to provide a fair education system throughout the district and I'm pleased to say, Lord Mayor, when the Tories talk of petty interference, it's interpreted by our head teachers and schools as co-operation, consultation, our listening ear, yes, Councillor and Councillor , they'll listen and if they've got the money they'll assist our schools. +Lord Mayor, I support the Labour Group's er recommendations. +I think we have salvaged the L M S Scheme in and when we get a national Labour Government we'll be able to make sure that it protects, it protects, those children with special needs, those children from socially deprived backgrounds in this city and protects our most experienced teachers. +Lord Mayor, clearly that is what the Tories do not want to happen in . +Thank you Lord Mayor +Well done +Councillor +My Lord Mayor, I move understanding order A fifteen B that the vote now be put. +Thank you. +Seconded, my Lord Mayor. +Those in favour? +Those against? +That is carried, forty nine votes to thirty +Those in favour of amendment C moved by Councillor please show +Those against? +We'll now vote on those in favour of an amendment standing in the name of ex-Councillor . +Those in favour please show +Those against? +twenty eight +Mhm? +twenty eight +Two and twenty eight. +That is lost to four to twenty against. +We'll now move on to an amendment standing in the name of Councillor . +Will those in favour please show? +Those against? +it's forty nine, fifty one +That is lost, thirty votes to fifty one +now deal with an amendment standing in the name of Councillor +Those in favour please show +Those against? +the two liberals +Mhm? +thirty two +Thirty two +That is carried, forty nine for, thirty two against, which brings us now to voting on the substantive motion. +Those in favour please show. +Those against? +That is carried, forty nine for, thirty two against. +Which now brings us on to er item eleven on the agenda which are notices of motion, the first one being houses housing land for speculators. +Call upon Councillor to move the motion together with amendment D standing in his name. +Moved Lord Mayor +Seconded Lord Mayor +In accordance with standing order A thirteen little C this motion will stand referred to the Housing and Environmental Protection Committee for consideration and report unless the Council decide to deal with it at this meeting. +What are the Council's wishes? +My l Lord Mayor, I move, that the item be referred to the Housing and Environmental Protection Committee under standing order A twenty three for consideration and a decision and that the right to defer the matter back to Council be removed. +seconded +Seconded? +Those in favour please show get up get up. +It's gonna be a short evening Mhm? +Those against thirty two . +That is carried, forty nine for, thirty two against. +The next white paper motion is on road safety and traffic calming measures. +Call upon Councillor to move a motion, together with amendment F standing in his name. +Seconded? +Seconded my Lord Mayor +I call upon Councillor to hem amendment G standing in his name. +I move Lord Mayor +Is there a seconder? +Seconded my Lord Mayor +In accordance with standing order A thirteen little C this motion will stand referred to the Community and Environment Services Committee for consideration and report unless the Council decide to deal with it at this meeting. +What are the Council's wishes? +I move that the item be referred to the Transportation and Highways Engineering Sub-Committee under standing order A twenty three for consideration and the decision and that the right to defer the matter back to Committee or and Council be removed. +Those in favour? +Those against?thirty two +that's carried, forty nine thirty two +That is carried, forty nine for, thirty two against. +We've come to er the third white paper motion, the Childrens Act. +Call upon Mrs to move the motion. +Is there a seconder? +Call upon Councillor to move amendment H standing in his name. +Move it, Lord Mayor +Is there a seconder? +Seconded Lord Mayor +I call upon Councillor to move amendment I standing in his name +I move Lord Mayor +Is there a seconder? +Lord Mayor +In accordance with standing order A thirteen little C, this motion will stand referred to the Social Services Committee for consideration and report unless the Council decide to deal with it at this meeting. +What are the Council's wishes? +Lord Mayor, I D that the item be debated at this meeting, without first it receiving report from Social Services Committee on the grounds that the matter is urgent in the meaning of the section three one of the Local Authority and Social Services Act of 1970. +I so move Lord Mayor. +Seconded my Lord Mayor. +Those in favour? +Mhm? +Mhm +There's nobody appears to be against it, so it'll c +My Lord Mayor, members of Council. +I welcome the new Children Act which became law earlier this month. +It is a new legal framework for child care and came about as a result of lessons learnt from Lord enquiry into child abuse in Cleveland in 1987. +It is a credit to Social Services officers that many of the new policies for children had already been adopted, and you can be proud of the work being done in this area. +However, there is always room for improvement and I think the public has little idea of the enormous problems that confront us, all of us, as the parents of these children in care. +The emphasis of the new Act, and already a policy of this Council, is to keep children with their natural parents whenever possible. +The prime responsibility for bringing up children rests with parents. +This means providing help and support in the home, the provision of day centres and family centres, and all this we do. +On the other hand the needs and welfare of the child must be paramount and if a child is deemed to be in danger, or at any particular risk, the child must be removed. +In the new Act parents can appeal against the child's removal after seventy two hours. +Previously they had to wait twenty eight days before doing so. +Children who do come in to care are placed with other families where possible and again is fortunate in having an experienced network of foster parents and link carers and we can't thank them enough. +In the new Act the positive role of relatives and friends is also recognised, but it must be obvious to everyone that some children are just so difficult, often having been very badly abused, and with severe behaviour problems, that they cannot be contained in a family and these children are placed in residential homes. +Let me say at once what a very difficult job the residential staff have, often in poor accommodation and with very poor wages, and with the most difficult and damaged children. +I welcome the Labour Party's proposals to refurbish some of these homes. +I just hope it's done quickly. +We in the childrens services have known for two years that something more must be done and we must pay our staff more. +We have s training schemes with support money from the Government. +The trouble is that with more training some of the staff quite naturally move to more lucrative jobs. +In the new Act children are then to have a say in what they want and in the plans made for them. +Given this, they m may be more co-operative and, even if living away from home, they have a strength and right of contact with their family. +This all seems to make sense to me and I welcome the fact that this Act recognises children also have their rights. +If all this leads the controlling group to scream for more money from the Government, and it will inevitably, I suggest they start using the money they have more sensibly and not waste it on their more extravagant schemes. +hear hear +For instance, festival, trips abroad, more and more committees with more and more meddlers, hence more paper, more secretarial work, all these neighbourhood forums, liaison groups and area panels, all costing a lot, talking a lot and doing very little +hear hear +All the new traffic islands in this city. +Just a fraction of this, just a fraction of this money directed towards our children and their services would help enormously +Help our children to grow into good citizens for . +Ensure a brighter f future for us as well as them. +Thank you my Lord Mayor +Councillor +Thank you Lord Mayor. +Mrs er has er actually said that we should be getting some more money and then she spoilt it by saying we should be using the money we haven't got more er better use it and er maybe knocking the traffic li er islands out will save us a problem cos we'll get a few kids knocked down and we won't have to bother with em. +That's the only thing I can say cos I can't understand how anybody can talk about traffic islands for er children in need +And what I'd like to do is, we do welcome this Act cos y'know we're not dog in a manger, when there's a good Act well, we'll welcome it and we'll say so. +But, as usual, the Conservative Government have spoiled it. +They've undermined it by not allocating resources. +Just to highli I'd just like to highlight a few of the principles before I comment on this dishonesty of this Government in, on the one hand enacting a major piece of legislation and on the other hand doing it in such a way that Councils'll settle for failure because resources have not been allocated. +Th what Labour would do would be ring fence the money, that's what Labour would do and I'll come on to that later if you give me a chance. +Th the, one of the main principles is a comprehensive clarification and rationalisation of child care law, probably the biggest we're gonna get this century, and basic principles, as Councillor is that parental responsibility cannot be lost through the process of law. +Regardless of who's caring for the child, both parents are still responsible and should still be involved in any decision making. +It requires the Local Authority to seek alternatives in order to keep the child in the family, rather than legal routes for admitting children to care. +It str strengthens the responsibility of Authorities to take into account racial and cultural needs when making plans for children. +It recognises the children as the major actors in any decision making and ensures that their rights and involvements in decision making are enhanced. +It requires Local Authorities and other agencies to co-operate with Social Services in responding to children in need. +All these principles the Labour Group champion and support. +But what about resources? +The first resource I wanna talk about is not the resources, the Local Authority resources, the resources of the family. +The family who has to care for children whether they've got disabilities or not and the whole intention of this Act is that children are best cared for by parents and any alternative is second best. +Yet the basic requirements for a family to do this, a decent home, a decent job, good education services, good health services for children with disabilities, recreational facilities and support systems in the community. +Every one of these requirements have been consistently attacked over twelve years by the Conservative Government. +It's fine to pass Acts but even a good Act are no good if their parents are expected to care for the child without resources. +Who considers our housing stock adequate and f that it provides a satisfactory environment to give facilities to parents? +Who considers there are sufficient play and other activities to keep young people out of trouble? +I'll give you two examples of the other side of Tories doing an Act. +Under the 1989 Housing and Local Government Act a man, living in a thirty thousand pound house with a mortgage. +He has three children. +He's got six hundred pound a month clear. +The middle child is severely disabled and necessary d adaptations would cost him three thousand seven hundred, that's what he's gotta find, and he cannot afford it, he can't afford to borrow that. +That's one of the Acts that works against children in need. +And also, when handicapped children are placed in foster homes, the foster parent is assis assessed as a contributor, which of course the Local Authority has to pay. +We've a case where it cost ten thousand pounds. +That ain't helping to do things for children. +All these things are what the Childrens Act is about, but it's not presumably what the Conservative Government is about. +The resources of the Social Services are purposely put last because really we don't wanna be involved. +We want the parents to be able to cope. +We want the spirit of the Act, that the parents should be in position to cope, to come through, but they're certainly not gonna be. +At this point I'd just like to comment on Virginia Bottomley's contention that she'd give twenty four percent to Social Services extra in S S A to the ac for the Act. +It were twenty four percent of virtually the same amount so the age old problem of the Conservatives robbing Peter to pay Paul. +If you wanna take the money out of education, housing, and sweeping and cleaning the streets, then we could have it in Social Services. +That's what it means. +No, we didn't get it. +That's w that's what it means. +It's it's lies. +That's what she's saying. +She said she'd give twenty four percent +darn lies +then it's lies +darn lies +As a Council, as Councillor says, we've done everything we can to prepare for the Act. +We've worked hard to develop inter-directory and inter-agency working, we've trained a high proportion of the staff and we are recognising that re- organising the directorate to provide specialist children's service. +They've undertaken pilot schemes in three key areas of the Childrens Act. +Definitions of children in need, emergency protection orders and accommodation agreements. +We've tried to fulfil our responsibilities as good parents. +But as a Labour Group, we welcome this motion because it demonstrates the dishonesty of the Conservative Government in passing one of the most enlightened pieces of legislation without any of the resources to implement it. +Lord Mayor, I move. +Well done +Councillor +made a speech in the Council Chamber and I've tur +No, hold on, and I've turned up with the wrong one. +I too could give you a very good speech on traffic island but I'll save that for the Transportation Highways and Engineering Sub- Committee. +On the Childrens Act, I just want to say one thing briefly. +There's been very little said about the actual content of the Childrens Act and I think it actually gets all Party's support, which is, which is excellent. +What I want to say is one thing about the public's perception of the political scene at the moment. +They are absolutely fed up with political point scoring. +Er, wrong party. +And I think er and I think we're gonna get a lot more political point scoring t er further on this evening. +We've got a lot more to look forward to. +We've tried to frame our motion as carefully as we could t so we could actually get support from everybody. +There is concern about funding for the Childrens Act and it's too important to start scoring political points, whether there's a general election or not t and I must admit I was off, I was off ill, off work during the week of the Tory Party Conference. +It was actually something that happened before the Tory Party Conference but it didn't, it didn't actually help me recover +and nearly every day, nearly every speaker actually attacked Local Government in some way. +What the Children Act does at least recognise in the Conservative Government passing the Childrens Act is the importance of Local Government. +These are very important services and they are placed, just like care in the community will be, when it eventually is put into practice. +They will actually responsibility of Local Government and er we've tried to put in here something that even Conservative Councillors could support, even though it's attacking Conservative Ministers, cos they must actually believe in Local Government to actually serve on Local Government, one would think, but er, but th the problems of under-funding are th could be very serious. +During the summer we had serious problems report on childrens homes which erm which y'know which pointed out a few things y'know that hadn't been doing well, mainly, mainly in defence of erm because they did put in a lot of effort + +Er okay. +Firstly er what is the area covered by the police district? +Well geographically it starts from the roundabout at the bottom of Road, where Road meets Boulevard. +And then along Road, turn left onto Road, and go right past the city hospital, turn left onto Road, through to Lane, Road to the junction with the . +Turn right to the roundabout. +Then it covers the whole of Estate, Estate. +If you go left along Road to the crossroads, near wh where the Flats. +Er turn left onto Road, to the railway line, and it cuts back along the railway line er which eventually comes out on the ring road. +And again continue along the ring road to the Lane roundabout. +Turn right onto Lane, to the bottom near the pub, Turn right again on Road onto er Road. +Then onto Road and then turn left onto Road. +Along there to the Recreation Ground, turn left onto Street down to Boulevard, turn right along Boulevard, back to Road. +And that is the geographical boundary. +Yeah. +Are these split into subdivisions? +Yeah that is the or the Road police subdivision. +That is further subdivided into beats what they call beats. +Which is eight separate areas. +Which comprise in name,,,,,,, and . +Mhm. +Er do you feel that the the area that is covered, there is enough er staff to cover that area? +Yeah erm the amount of police necessary for each area is based on all sorts of statistics, and for the statis statistics that we have for this area, we have or the chief constable's decided that he'll allocate a hundred and two police officers to police this area, which we find adequate. +There are times of course when we get very busy, there are times when we get slack. +But overall the allocation is about correct. +Er how did the national policing policy affect ? +After nineteen eighty one, to the present day? +Well as you know, in nineteen eighty one, there were there were troubles all over the country, which seemed to start from problems in Brixton. +And that er went across to sort of, Moss Side in Manchester, Toxteth, Handsworth and eventually to . +Er as a result of that, Lord Scarman was appointed by the the government to look into the problems. +And to report on it. +Er and one of his findings was that there was not really enough liaison between erm groups of people in the community. +Er he found that there was a big a big rift between the police and certain groups. +So he said. +Look get into the community and find out what the problems are. +So consequently after eighty one, or after the troubles in eighty one, erm there was an extra allocation of police officers in , and they were told to police mainly the area of the Flats Complex, which was perhaps where the troubles where in . +Mm. +Er what er what special problems did the the flats complex pres present to +Geographically speaking again, if you put a lot of people in a small area, er you'll get problems because, square yard for square yard, you've go more people. +The design of the flats was tailor-made for crime, if you look at it now. +I'm sure that's wa wasn't in the planners minds of course. +But if you look at the flats now, erm it was tailor-made for crime. +Erm and with the housing people putting the type of people they put in there, it did lead to a lot of problems. +Erm a lot of blues parties were held. +Er these are sort of parties that start at midnightish and go on through the night. +Erm attended predominantly by West Indian people. +Erm and that caused a lot of noise. +And that was probably the main complaint overall was the noise in the small hours. +So people would phone up and complain that noise throughout the night was mainly concent er mainly down to the blues parties? +We we we did get a lot of phone calls complaining about erm loud reggae type music from that area. +Er a lot of calls. +Mm. +Well th +Yeah part part of the problems was say Going back to what Sergeant said about er the people in the from the housing, being mixed. +Er the impression I got when I talked to the locals who lived here was that it wasn't gonna be that mixed. +There wasn't gonna be single parent families with three children, er living above an old age pensioner who'd been in there from the word go. +Er that problem always raised and of course visitors and things like that, car parking, it all came to a head. +You kn about that time. +The er the special problems the complex presents at the moment, are very minimal compared to what er other police officers I've spoke to who've worked the flats in the past, have told me about. +Er there was problems with dogs. +Dog mess, dogs running wild. +Er they weren't built for dogs, yet people brought dogs with them or adopted, let's say, dogs what came there. +So they started running round. +Er lads who were interested in motorbikes. +You get a sixteen seventeen year old who'd interested in motorbike, he wants to take his motorbike to th where he lives. +So therefore you got motorbikes going up the ramps, which weren't designed for that. +Lot of complaints like that. +Er litter was one that raised its head very much. +Not just chip papers and er newspaper type litter what we normally see, it's if you're living on the top flat and you have a new settee, how what do you do with that settee? +And unfortunately settees appeared at the bottom of the you know, just been pushed over the sides and appeared and then they were left. +Er +And what what sort of powers do they people have er when problems like that arise? +Well the the powers, I mean we've got the powers of there is an offence of depositing litter. +But does that stop the problem if if we report someone for depositing litter I E a settee, I mean they don't want to really deposit it there, is it quality of life that's forced them to do it. +What we did do, is we contacted the D D T S. +Or the the officers at the time did. +And there there was a project done with those to get the rubbish moved, and any rubbish that was seen, was contacted. +I mean er I've been told circumstances where there's been a pensioners who can't move very well. +And they've got to get to the chutes to dispositer the rubbish. +Well will they do it? +Or does it get left outside, and then somebody comes along and kicks it, and then it's open and therefore the rubbish is all over. +It were just that quality of life. +And policemen don't like to see it. +But what do they do? +So they had to start contacting the er What's the terminology we use at the moment? +The inter agency? +Inter-agency liaison is it? +Inter-agence liaison. +The police instead of ignoring it, decided to try and amongst with other agencies, you know the cleaning service and that, to try and er do a project. +And it worked. +I think people . +Yeah. +Erm +In the future, I can't see E the only one I can see is, What do they do with the flats when they empty. +I cannot see the flats becoming empty on a Friday, and the bulldozers moving in on the Sunday or the Monday. +I can see a period where the flats will just stand. +And whether that will then attract children and damage. +Or whether they'll be fenced off, I just don't know. +Yeah. +So you can the there might be a problem with say the flats being left empty, that trouble may may occur. +Erm so people getting over the fences in in the flats while +Mm. +they're fenced off. +They're being tinned up very securely. +I've yet to hear of a report where somebody's empti Is that Have you heard of anywhere? +They've emptied the flats. +They are s very securely. +The problem is I think it's the I mean there is a private security firm in there at the moment, perhaps they'll remain till eventually it's all done. +But children are children aren't they. +And er they are attracted to them type of building. +Unfortunately it's right in the centre and it er does attract them. +Yeah. +Erm do you have liaison with local community groups at all? +Er +Yes. +In our role as principal beat officers, er we do. +More than the fully operational constables and sergeants do, yeah. +W er I first li worked . +Visit the neighbourhood centre at , and there I'm in contact with residents associations, Asian groups, er all types of groups, and if I'm invited to them I go. +Er to sit at the meeting. +If it's full attend them anyway. +Er we also got the Asian community centre on Street, and we we go there and there's a cross exchange of er ideas. +There's a community centre on near the Centre. +It is a lot +Could could you explain what a principal beat officer is? +I'm sure sergeant will be able to.. +Again, going back to the Scarman report in eighty one, the area is divided up into eight beats. +And rather than have police officers coming on duty, and saying, Okay, you take this beat, you take that. +They decided to appoint eight constables and give each area, one constable, or devote one constable to each area. +And he would only ever work that area. +And he generally worked it during the hours of daylight, when he could be seen and people could liaise with him. +er I mean, hoe successful has it been? +Well without sort of, saying because I work in that department, it's good, erm I sincerely believe that it is very good. +I mean, twenty years ago when the volume of work wasn't so high as it now, then erm every police officer was doing that, but because time has marched on and problems have become more an more, erm we we tend to have left the traditional way of policing behind. +And I'm sure you've seen where the chief constable says he wants more bobbies on the beat, well perhaps this is a way to a to achieving that. +Mm. +Erm +The community does relate to one police officer. +They know he's not gonna be there for for ever, I E you know, he'll want to move on or they perhaps will move on. +But the fact that they see the same pl face See not everybody wants to talk to a policeman to report crime do they? +A lot of them want to just talk, to feel secure that they've seen a policeman. +Or just pass time of day. +Cos that's what they remember from their childhood. +It's perhaps fair to say as well that if if er er a member of the public knows that P C Smith or P C Jones is his local policeman, he would prefer to see P C Smith or P C Jones. +And if he can't or doesn't then he will sometimes keep the problem to himself. +Rather than report it to anybody. +And I think the the local touch if you like of the principal beat officer, er shows itself on occasions like that. +D d er do the people get to know police officers name? +I mean is that sort of friendship built up or +Oh yeah. +relationship whatever +Yeah bear i I mean both of us sitting here, we've been to social functions on this areas +Yeah the the the amount of phone calls we get asking for P C , for P C , for P C , for P C , er for P C is quite incredible. +People do know who their local policeman is. +And they won't they won't be satisfied if the get somebody else, they'll say +No. +That's right. +Yeah. +The er Course we you know l l like at the naval centre, I'm in the handbook, along with the er other services to . +So they do you know relate to that, Er I haven't got a magic wand. +They know I haven't got a magic wand. +Brut a lot of the time, they don't want to report that their child is riding without lights, but they accept that if you have a quiet word, he may not do it. +Yeah it's enjoyable work. +And it's not that enjoyable to put people in prison, it's not that enjoyable to put people in court. +If you can see a result If I talk to John Smith and tell him that I know he keeps riding on the pavement at you know, with no lights, it sounds minor, but the old age pensioner who keeps nearly getting missed, it's very you know upsetting. +And if he does and then I see him and that he isn't doing it any more, at least I've got job satisfaction in that he hasn't. +A lot of the time, the fact that they know that you're doing it, stops them. +Well the parents seem to appreciate that as well. +That's how they were dealt with. +Erm moving on a bit now, er er I mean, which crimes do you figure do you think figure most prominently around the fl in and around the flats? +At the present time, there's very not that much crime at all. +There is one perhaps two of what we call the blues parties, still running. +But er compared to what there was. +I say you know, we do talk to each other as police officers and talking to the lads who work the flats, from when they were busy to you know, now it's on the you know, I think what, there's about three hundred people is there? +Or three hundred if that, left in the flats. +It's not that many. +Er there was a lot of thefts from cars. +Because the cars are obviously parked in an area away from the er where the people lived. +They were left on the car park, so people knew they were parked there for the night. +There's a lot of thefts from cars. +Theft of cars. +Cars being abandoned there because of the chances of them being er found. +Er damage, graffiti. +Then because of the reputation the area got for the blues or for the so called red light area, you get people coming in from out of town, which then brought it's own problems with it. +There was thefts from persons you know, people, three o'clock in the morning, making their way home from a blues were robbed. +Erm there was drug dealing going on. +Er the blues theirselves were a crime. +If you think about it they're selling drink there without licences. +You know that's all now going if you're just talking about the flats area. +Mm. +Well li what what happens, does the the the crime just vanish or does it move somewhere else, do do do do the problems move around? +It Not so much move around, er some people, the age group you're talking about going to the blues, because don't just think that it's it is prominently West Indians or blacks, that go, but there's white people go as well. +Which you know,the as they get older There seems to be an age group for blues. +You don't see that many forty, fifty years olds at blues. +And whether they tend to get older and move on, or like you say I totally agree, Have they took off somewhere else? +You know perhaps in another area of Nottingham where they all tend to go now. +Erm. +I'm just wondering th I mean how how how do you regard the erm the the problems of prostitution and the related crimes to that in the area? +I think by tradition every city had a red light district. +And again looking back through history, Nottingham's red light district is . +Why I don't know, whether it's because street lighting is less, or geographically lends itself. +But yes if you live er in an area where prostitutes frequent,i it is a problem to you. +Erm we get complaints from you know good people who get pestered by them. +Men who get pestered by them. +Erm we used to get complaints about kerb crawlers, but as you know, we had a a new law that was allegedly attributed to Nottingham, which made it an offence to, in certain circumstances to kerb crawl, looking for prostitutes. +But erm generally,s what we say, keeping the lid on the problem. +You won't stamp it out. +Again by tradition, it's the oldest profession, it's always been with us, possibly always will. +Erm some people put forward a very strong argument for legalizing it. +Instead of saying, don't make it against the law, make it lawful. +And you know create special premises for it. +There's an argument for that. +But at the moment it's not really a great problem, because the lads here go and see the prostitutes, report them for summons, and we do Well in my time here certainly,i it's been reduced considerably to what it was. +I'm not connected with that. +But it's certainly gone down a he er quite a bit. +Noticeably. +Erm I mean a are there rela what what what would you say are the related crimes to prostitution? +Well I think you're moving on now to a sphere where perhaps C I D could you know help you on that. +Erm you must have heard of the phrases of poncing, where somebody is operating a prostitute and if they don't get a required amount of money a week or er er an amount of money where they consider it sufficient, they'll probably go and beat them up or something like that. +Then we do get odd cases of that, but again the m the majority of them are never reported. +And it's kept you know, within that sort that sort of er area. +It doesn't come to our notice much. +Yeah I get I mean I get the impression if you're thinking about you know, the thefts from the people, I mean a lot of the time is the guy who's visiting the prostitute, doesn't report to us if his wallet's been stolen, for the simple fact he was visiting a prostitute. +He thinks we'll look at it in a different light. +Er so obviously there is a lot of undetected crime that we wouldn't know about. +You know, the guy won't tell his wife or his girlfriend or whatever, that he's lost his wallet. +You know, sooner than do that. +I know that does happen. +Do you get many complaints from women who've been bothered by blokes? +Er who've just been walking along the road. +Bearing in mind like er Sergeant told you before, the area that we cover, yeah the the girls or prostitute do stand Street. +A lot of them also stand on the part that covered by Street And I know Street has got a tenant's action group against prostitutes. +B because of that one complaint, you know . +Er not so much on Street because they tend to stand near the flats. +Entrances on the roads where the houses aren't. +And the the women and that who live in that area, tend I've noticed to walk on the other side of the road anyway. +I personally I've had yet to deal with one where the complaint. +And I cover that part of er Street. +Er it does happen. +Right. +Yeah I get you. +Erm do you have cases where the where the girls or same faces keep popping up or do you do you feel that once they've been pulled in they it puts them off? +Well we tend not to what you've just said, pull them in. +At one time, the officers if they saw the girls soliciting, used to arrest them, bring them to a police station, they're finger print, photographed and dealt with. +Now some of the girls And they're released you know, some of the girls were arrested what two or three times a night. +Mm. +So it was looked at tying up police time. +And what was decided was We know what's known as report for summons. +We know the girls, we check them out, whether they're wanted or not. +We know the details and the w they're told the facts when we report it and then they're given a summons. +To go to court. +So there's been a a difference there. +We're not pulling them in. +Yeah I mean some very nice girls don't take that wrong I mean, they n they don't hit you on the head and start fighting every time you talk to them. +But how can you stop them going back? +Yeah. +Erm I think the only deterrent is increased fines. +Erm and again they work quite simply mathematically. +If they can make a hundred pound a week, and they're only getting fined twenty, they ain't doing too bad. +Yeah. +Erm with wi with the big national AIDS campaign, do you have you er with the prostitution, have you had anything to do with if if you ever speak to them do you say, you know,yo Look there's AIDS, can you do something? +You know. +Yeah well, the girls theirselves made an approach. +I mean there was er on the television and etcetera only the two weeks ago, we had two of the girls from here had made an approach about AIDS. +Vice squad, or anti-vice should I say, are er involved in that. +Mm. +Erm Let's go on to the next question now about erm Just wondering what what on what cir under what circumstances, the police get involved in domestic disturbances on the flats? +Well every domestic I go to, I look at as a potential murder. +You have to. +They normally come to the attention of the police by neighbours, ringing up, There's an argument or there's a lot of noise from next door. +And we go. +We obviously don't go, knock on the door and say, Mrs Brown next door is complaining about you. +We knock on the door, and whoever comes we say, you know, We've had a complaint, is everything all right. +If it's man and wife arguing, or man, female arguing, and they're the only two in this place, and I'm satisfied that it's gonna be quiet, and there's no injuries to each other and it's not gonna flare up, then that's a domestic, that you can be quite happy with. +There's then the domestics where it's gonna keep going. +Or has been going in the past, and violence obviously can result in serious injury or at least death. +Cos the tension runs high. +So it's normally brought to us either by, the neighbours ringing in or somebody passing by saying they can hear screaming. +Or one of the persons, man or woman, ringing in saying, I've got trouble at me own, I want me clothes back. +So there's different sorts of domestic. +There is the power of breach of the peace. +Or if they +Has it been much of a problem on the flats? +No they tended to s without s sounding wrong, tended to sort theirselves out. +Th everybody Yeah there was noise and that but er when we got there it had normally quietened down. +Perhaps going back again to the quality of life, was it a a release valve for the frustration of the places? +I don't know. +Erm erm go on to the next one then. +Erm erm do you d do you think that drugs and alcohol are a major problem on the flats? +Or were a major problem? +Yeah. +There was drugs dealing in the flats. +I don't think anybody'll deny that. +So therefore the problem was there. +If that's what you're looking for, Yeah well that's obviously going with the flats going. +There was the drugs problem where Trying to put me er social hat on, of people there on valium e and other drugs which were floating ground and kids were getting hold of these drugs from their parents. +Leaving them around s you know quite a few drugs. +So that was a problem. +Er the alcohol? +No. +I don't think so except for the relation to domestics. +If the if the old man had been out and spent the wages and on ale and then that resulting. +I was just thinking about er when the pubs turn out and things like that. +I mean,d did you get problems around that time of the evening ? +No they tended to go home. +It's very er +It was very strange +Pub fights and that never seem to appear here do they? +No very strange. +My old inspector who's now been and gone, came from Newark, and he said that there was far more trouble within the public houses in Newark, er than ever there was here and he came here, imagining the problem to be a lot worse. +And I don't think he ever went to problem you know, a pub fight at all. +They just don't seem to happen. +Yeah and I say the obviously is in nigh on in the +Mm. +flats complex and No. +You know, they're very I mean the w they way how it was put to me is to d same with all your questions, it was the er, was it the tail wagging the dog. +Was ninety percent of the people there very law abiding and just got on with own lives, and ten percent that caused the problems it kept re kept sh showing its head because of these. +I mean there's some palaces in them flats. +You've been in obviously yourself and er others are not so nice. +So But as far as the drink er No. +Er about drugs and going back to the drugs, you mentioned about valium and problems +Mm. +like that. +Erm what what about other drugs erm harder drugs. +I mean have have they been found on the in the flats?is there is dealing does de dealing go on? +W majority of the dealing in there was marijuana. +I would wouldn't like to say about cocaine and heroine because obviously the drug squads could have deals in there what I'm not aware of. +But er I've had one arrest in there and that was a girl. +And that was for er marijuana. +Which er which she stated was freely available in the flats. +Erm well just go to the final question now I mean Erm when th now the flats are emptying out and they're coming down, erm and what what do you see is gonna be the problem? +While they're standing e problems while they're standing empty and +Mm. +afterwards when they're they're demolished, what problems do you see? +Well I I think the number the population will decrease obviously. +Erm there was what six hundred and eighty flats in all. +So if you multiply that by two, you're talking thirteen fourteen hundred, perhaps even more, so that amount of people are gonna go. +But I don't think the method of policing will change, because again going back to eighty one and Scarman, and he said, Get in among them, liaise, talk. +Er and this is exactly what we are doing, so I can't see the policy er of policing of changing at all. +It's just that you know I mean if you want to talk numbers, there'll be less people +Yeah. +to police. +I think a lot depends on what they build there. +Mm. +If they build traditional what they call traditional terrace type housing, I think the community in itself will er just adjust to that. +If you then start talking of building supermarkets whatever, then we're obviously looking at thefts from supermarkets . +I mean I just know what they're gonna build there, I don't think a lot anybody knows as yet. +There's obviously policies being took with the community. +Er I think a lot will depend. +I mean w like I said early on, we're gonna get problems while they're empty. +You're going to get people who want to sleep in there. +You're gonna get kids who are missing from home who'll climb in there. +That could be anywhere, that could or here. +That's not down to the area. +Er a lot depends on what they build there. +If they build traditional houses, we're then talking about the same amount. +Of people coming back, families. +But I don't think the problems will come to traditional housing, what came to the flats, I E the walkways, the litter, the abuse, the facts of the parties. +I think it'll be a fresh start for the area and a good start. +About the changes that have been made to . +Erm do yo do you know anything about those? +I know they're going on to security entrance isn't it, where the er they're going to have their own key or own method of getting in on an intercom. +Which apparently has worked quite well at er. +. But 'll stay as it is. +Mm. +So you do you think that'll be an improvement for do you think? +Well it's got to be for the people there theirselves hasn't it? +Mm. +You know. +As long as they don't abuse it. +I mean it's no good having a your own identity number and then telling everybody what it is, because that'll just never raised its head anyway that much did it? +In the flats? +No was the posh part of the flats if you like. +Right then er well thank very much anyway. +I think that's + +I think we'll, got another minute or so. +I think I'll start. +Well welcome everybody and welcome to some Pearson results that er ar maybe rather better than some of you were expecting. +Er taking part in our presentation this morning is Frank , the Chief Executive of, of Pearson, er James , our Finance Director and David who is er our resident as Pearson Executive Director resident in the U S and he is also Chairman of our Oil Services Division. +Profits are lower and earnings are lower than last year, but cash generation which we've been working particularly hard on er for the past couple of years er and which we will be talking about further in a minute has come through extremely well er and we produced higher levels of cash this year than at any time in the company's history. +With this in mind we are er recommending a small increase in the net dividend. +A number of things have changed since er, we reported rather gloomily six months ago. +One of the major changes is that the trading environment in which U K companies operate has been improved by lower interest rates and the lower value of the pound which is also helpful to the translation of our overseas profits and to our exports. +Particularly as we are a company whose sales as you know is split roughly a third a third a third er that is a third in the U K, a third in North America and a third in the rest of the world. +The media and entertainment business brought in excellent results collectively up twenty five percent and as you can see the book businesses performed particularly strongly even better now. +Erm investment banking and fine china in the market circumstances er performed well, erm although they're down on the previous year. +Er the disappointment obviously is oil services, so to begin I'm gonna ask David , who as I said is Chairman of our Oil Services Division Camco to address this straight away. +Just better ah, that's fine. +Thank you Michael for that introduction which er could be likened to a poisoned chalice I suppose. +Erm you probably all know Murphy's law that what can go wrong will go wrong, when I looked at the Oil Service Industry in last year, I rather think that Murphy was a bit of an optimist myself. +Er, obviously on a more serious note, er it was very disappointing that we had such a severe er downturn in profitability last year after several years of steadily rising profits, and so what I want to do this morning was tell you a little bit about what happened in the last part of the year, since we met at the time of the interim results presentation last September, tell you the actions that have been taken and give you a little bit of insight as to where we stand at the present time. +You may remember that we were talking last autumn about gas prices hopefully continuing to rise natural gas by to rise during the rest of the year and in fact that did take place and it did have some impact on the domestic rig count in the United States which went up quite strongly in the last part of the year. +Although I should warn you that about two hundred of those nine hundred rigs were probably actor active as a result of special tax breaks, which were ended at the end of nineteen ninety two and won't be repeated. +The biggest problem and disappointment was that the international rig count continued downwards and that was where we had been hoping for increased sales and increased market share looking into this year and into the last part of last year. +As a result, overall our sales were down, roughly in line with our competitors in the oil service industry, but there was continuing pressure on margins and profitability and there had obviously been some build-up on the international side in anticipation of higher sales. +With an uncertain outlook for nineteen ninety three from our point of view it's absolutely crucial to get costs in line we had obviously done cost-cutting during the previous two years, but we really needed to be sure that if revenues were not going to increase, we shouldn't wait for a recovery to bail us out. +This led to restructuring costs, including redundancies and closures and other one-time charges totalling approximately twenty million dollars, of which approximately eighteen million dollars came in the second half and a very large portion of that in the last quarter of the year. +The areas where we put in most effort were Reed Tool the drill bit company where there were redundancies earlier in the year and in particular the U S operations of Redder and also the U S operations of Camco Products where in fact in the U S part of it, there are now thirty eight percent less people employed than there were a year ago. +In doing all of this, we were in good or maybe bad company depending upon how you view it, for example Halla Burton had special charges last year of a hundred and eighty seven million dollars which compared with a hundred and eighty two million dollars of special charges the previous year and Baker Hughes similarly had charges of eighty million dollars and sixty million dollars. +At the same time, we reduced capital expenditure from forty two million dollars to twenty four million dollars, but we did keep up our R and D efforts and had several rather successful new product introductions during the year. +As a result with good control of working capital, our cash flow overall was virtually the same as in the previous year in spite of the significant profit collapse and although there may be some further redundancies this year, I don't expect them to be in any way on the same scale as during nineteen ninety two and the important thing is that we now have costs in line with the lower level of revenue as we look into nineteen ninety three. +To take a quick look now at the current conditions and in fact you'll see the extension of gas prices, rig counts etcetera into this year on the charts that you'll be given with a pack after this meeting. +Gas prices in the first quarter of this year have continued firm. +The U S rig count is down, both because of those rigs I told you about for tax reasons and also because there's always a seasonal downturn in the first quarter of this year. +There is some indication that the seasonal downturn may be flattening out a little bit earlier this year than usual. +The Canadian market has been very strong, which is important for Reed Tool which has a big market share up there for its drill bits. +The international market however does still remain weak. +There may have been some weather impact in the last two months, but basically, it looks like the major U S oil companies that were going overseas are still spending money on buying leases and building up infrastructure. +The national companies such as Mexico and Venezuela are still re-organizing themselves and obviously a lot of time, effort and nervous energy is being spent by people on figuring out what to do in the C I S, where there are obviously great opportunities, but great risks as well. +So the trading environment still remains er somewhat weak, but the better news is that the medicine we've applied does seem to be working. +The newly-appointed C E O, Gary who took over at the end of the year when Gill retired has been very involved in these restructuring efforts and has been working very effectively and is on top of the situation, and although three swallows may not make a summer, I can at least tell you that Camco has traded profitably in each of the first three months of nineteen ninety three and now I'd like to hand you over to Frank , who will talk about the rest of our business. +Thank you David. +Good morning everyone. +Last year in the er Annual Report er Michael and wrote we will continue to concentrate our efforts on cash generation and so obviously this is the er this has been the most important of our management actions. +We've continued to focus on cash. +We've concentrated on market share, we've been exercising cost reductions and we've been continuing with investment. +Now how did we focus on cash? +Well we er have programmes designed to encourage chief executives to er concentrate on cash generation. +We've er added extra staff in, in er credit control departments where it's been necessary and by a process of education, at every Pearson seminar we rang home the message of the importance of cash and James provides examples of different methods of operating and the effect it has on cash and what happened to market share? +Well we've er we've gained in, in many areas and held in all. +Cost reductions there are many, many actions we've taken and so lots of the cost reduction is the accumulation of er of rather smaller ones, but the main ones are redundancy, sadly, more redundancy and we'll give you the numbers in a second er we've asked our suppliers for greater discounts or better discounts and been successful here. +We control the pay round, the pay round increase in Pearson was less than three percent a a and we've continued with capital expenditure designed to reduce costs. +Good example would be Penguin U S A er where we've er er put up a new building er in which to house a press to be by Donnelly which will allow much shorter print runs of our trade books and this should reduce the number of and as you know, that's one of the biggest problems facing the trade book industry . +Another example would be the Talbot System and the Financial Times, which will provide full page make-up and is already yielding benefits and will continue to do so in ninety three and ninety four. +But we've continued with investment to develop our business as well er and so we acquired Ventura which publishes the er Spot er books. +We really in Paris and we invested th five point seven million in the toy ride at Alton Towers, er one point six million in the roller-coaster, we've authorized three point six five million to be used at er Warwick Castle to develop the King Maker Exhibition and we spent ten million on a new ride underground at Madame Tussauds in Marylebone Road, the Spirit of London. +We've launched the series of six Beatrix Potter videos, the first two have been very successful, the first one sold three hundred and fifty thousand copies and is er I think it's number three in the best seller list and we'll give you one of these to take home and er and, and watch to your leisure. +er we er launched the Medical Daily in Spain with our Spanish associates and we've introduced interactive videos that our er Natural Sciences Division have Addison Wesley and elsewhere. +We move to redundancies, well there you will see that er er newspapers that is to say Westminster Press and Camco have borne the brunt er and I will say no more other than that the reduction in payroll year-on-year will be thirty million pounds. +Moving to fine china, there was a very considerable overseas sales decline, particularly in Canada where there were lots of major retailers going bankrupt, but despite that, sales were over two hundred million for the fourth year in succession and we had a record December. +This was achieved by altering the mix and concentrating more on the lower-priced er china such as erm chain stores and hotel and airline ware. +In the U S we continued with our expansion by opening sixteen shops and our bridal wear in America was a market leader. +Newspapers. +Well there you'll see a summary. +The F T Newspaper which includes magazines, electronic publishing and was up a bit. +The F T Associates which is er includes the Economist in Spain was up a lot and Westminster Press was er was down, but of course Westminster Press took a major redundancy charge, they were also bringing on a new plant at Brighton and therefore running two plants simultaneously which is very costly er and they launched on Sunday. +Again they charged against revenue but er I can assure you that er Westminster Press will increase its cash generation during this year. +The Financial Times itself, the er trading profit was up ten percent, despite having to cope with an advertisement volume which is now higher than during the er seventy four recession. +Cost cutting went on and as I say will continue in ninety three and ninety four. +Circulation just about held its own in U K, but was up six point three percent in Europe and is now one hundred and thirteen thousand five hundred and the electronic publishing was up eighty one percent. +There's Echo There's Echo goes from strength to strength to the extent that one of its competitors, the main competitor,Tribune del Expansione was obliged to merge with Lacoude Francais I mentioned earlier that Ensure was re-launched and er it achieved a circulation of a hundred and five thousand. +In circulation of Les Ecca was up four percent year on year. +The Economist circulation is now five hundred and twenty five thousand each week, and although their er year is out of sync with ours, I expect the profits for the year to be at or near record levels once again. +Recollettas our Spanish investment paid off handsomely, profits more than doubled and Marker is er, the seven day a week sports paper, is now the er second biggest paper in Spain and has a higher readership than the first paper. +Expansione the financial daily excuse me also increased its circulation once again and its profits. +Moving to books and of course the books division er was the star this year I am pleased to stay. +Starting off with Penguin. +With record sales, record profit and record cash generation, they managed to reduce their inventory by thirty percent during the year and had the most ever number of best sellers on the New York Times best seller list, and that's continued into ninety three in January, we had eight on the New York Times best seller list. +At Longman, here again, best ever sales profits and cash generation. +In Spain, we took Hal Hambra from a loss to a profit and the award of the Albanta Prize by the Spanish government and this is an award given to the best new text book in, in the Spanish educational system each year. +In Japan our small but beautiful medical information business increased its profits by forty five percent and Ladybird er we had a swing from a loss to a profit margin of ten percent. +Addison Wesley er had a, yet again another year of progress. +I am pleased to say we've taken the trading margin there from five percent to fourteen point two percent in the last four years. +This was achieved with a higher erm educational higher education perform the industry in the year say and that was a major contributor and our Natural Sciences Division had its best ever sales. +Entertainment and Media er the Tussaud Group had the highest ever attendances at Alton Towers, at Warwick Castle er and at Rock Circus. +Scenerama in Holland performed above budget. +Alton Towers in fact was a record turnover and profit and I think it justifies our marketing of goods I mentioned the two investments on new rides earlier and that was designed to move the audience from the white socks brigade to family unions, it seems to be working very well +Peskibe continues to thrive, operational profits there are now well over a million a week and I think it's worth remembering that one subscriber may have three subscriptions say to two movie channels and one sports channels and if you count these individually, it means that we now have four point nine million subscriptions achieved during the second worst recession, recession this century. +The churn rate is now down to eleven percent, the result of positive action that we've taken there and we expect to add a million homes during this year and the cable audience I am pleased to say is growing still very very slowly er but that should help as well. +Now lastly er just to er just to indicate that virtue has its own reward, there's the record operating cash generation for you to see and on that note I'll pass you over to James . +James. +Thank you Frank. +I don't know whether I'm virtue or the reward, but never mind! +Er, back to the profit and analysis er remind you so far there's three which er you're all very I'm sure already familiar with but we have to explain to some of our less sophisticated audiences. +Six sectors down ten percent, that of course included investment banking which we haven't touched on, but er the Lazard Houses profits were down a little less than ten percent which is rather good going, given their erm heavy specialist skills in M and A which were a little bit in short supply last year. +Er looking at the rest of the P and L, you will see that we have split out a profit on sale of fixed assets which is our Lakeside erm Capelat and the Capco shares er which is why the corporate expenses for this other income has turned a way round, it's gonna be negative nowadays, so we thought it'd look a little silly saying other income less expenses. +Erm operating profit therefore down eleven percent, that's er the ongoing businesses plus of course the impact of the erm er the sale of er Elsevere are holding in the first erm up to ten weeks of ninety one. +Therefore although the interest charge is well down, profit before tax was down sixteen percent, it's down sixteen percent er because of course the old extraordinaries, the extraordinaries we had below the line in ninety one the eight million you see net profit on disposals are back above the line in under F R S Three, that's the Elsevere profit less the Smith Var losses very broadly speaking. +Continuing down the and P and L account the erm tax charge, you've seen a note in the erm preliminary results present erm handout is not in fact up as a percentage if you look at the operating er if you look at it in operating terms, there was a tax credit in in extraordinaries last year this therefore had reduced the nineteen ninety one tax charge comparatively, strip it out and tax chargee share was around twenty nine percent. +Primary earnings under F R S Three including everything down twenty one percent, but taking out the non-operating items, that's the erm fixed assets, er profit sales on the one hand and the old extraordinaries on the other, and you have I think a more meaningful guide to our performance a reduction in any nine percent. +There were some significant erm factors that im impinged on profits i in nineteen ninety two and we've listed here the most important ones. +To an extent tha they er offset each other as you can see, since the erm underlying operating performance, although less than the total in operating profit er was, was, was quite varied. +The I, I'll run through them rather quickly. +On the negatives there was the er resumption of a S S A P twenty four charge for U K pensions, a little less than we expected, we had a strong revaluation in mid-year, the incremental redundancy costs that Frank has already touched upon and er the er dis er the discontinued profits not in ninety two. +Offsetting that with the Smith Mark, losses and the one-time provision for the Penguin U S Leases, that was all taken care of in nineteen ninety one and the benefit from our fully benefit from our ninety one acquisitions and little bit in ninety two. +If I turn from the P and L Account to the operating cash flow, er you've got the F R S One cash flow in your er in your pack in the preliminary announcement obviously, but we er don't find it terribly helpful, it's not the way we manage the business so I thought you erm would forgive us if we present it in the way we think it's a little easier to follow. +Now this slide really takes the behind, takes us behind the first figure on the on the consolidated F R S One cash flow table and it really traces hard despite the reduction in profits, the very strong performance in working capital that Frank eluded to earlier means that er we actually end up with a net cash flow for operating activities more than thirty five million pounds higher. +I'd just like to elude to the er positive string on exchange, we take our profits in during the year at an average rate, but the cash benefit obviously er year on year is, is better than that er to the extent that the erm dollar has strengthened throughout the year or by the year end against the pound and we get the full benefit of that in our cash flow. +Reduction in capital expenditure er broadly offset the reduced erm income from partnerships and associates which is basically our Lazard income, that's so the very good er contribution we got in ninety one reflected the nineteen ninety er profits they were earning. +Operating cash flow as we look on it, well up. +The reduction in interest broadly matched the increase in tax paid between the two years, so the net movement of funds from operations are a critical parameter for whether we're really generating cash for new initiatives, significantly better at forty five point six million and this this excludes the proceeds of fixed asset disposals, so all in all we had pretty nearly sixty million cash free and clear. +Not a lot was spent on acquisitions er and not really any material disposals other than the ones already referred to. +The change in net debt, er worth referring worth mentioning minus three point three million that much worse would have been significantly lower thirty five million or so lower if we'd had the same year end exchange rate as we did in nineteen ninety one. +I turn from this rather convoluted erm aspect of cash flow back to the balance sheet. +Balance sheets really haven't changed either er formally the way we publish them to you or the way we look at it, them ourselves. +Er really no great change here, small improvement in capital and small increase in capital employed and of course with little change in net debt and the shareholders' funds have gone up. +If you look at the net debt in greater detail it is still the difference between erm substantial gross debt and substantial amounts of cash, each of which have gone up somewhat during the year. +The significant change I think is in the balance of debt between fixed and variable rate, where we took a conscious decision and been working it through to take more advantage of the prospective and er decline, it was prospective earlier in the year er in selling interest rates and the continued low er short-term rates in the United States. +The upshot of the erm the year of course has been rather a healthy lot of financial ratios. +We've er we're showing the dividend cover in a variety of ways because it's I think not clear that any one measure is, is only er the way of calculating it. +Under F R S Three which is the erm everything above the line earnings a a covers down, earnings down from two one to one six, not much change on the adjusted earnings which we think is perhaps more meaningful and if you look at the cash generation the test of whether you can pay it a very significant improvement from one two to one point seven times. +Interest cover er has improved accordingly, you saw the interest charge was, was usefully down and erm the ratio is low and has remained low. +So on that healthy note I'd like to hand you back to Michael to summarize. +I'm optimistic about nineteen ninety three. +I can't of course foretell er what's gonna happen in Eastern Europe, but looking externally er at the lower interest rates and the er more competitive value of the pound and internally at the improved cash flow and the actions that we've been taking over for the past couple of years and I can say that there's now generally a more optimistic feeling in the air amongst our group companies. +As you've heard we've been cutting costs pretty significantly over the last couple of years erm what we're talking about is three thousand people having been er made redundant over the two and a half years and as we were saying earlier substantial redundancy costs have had to be borne. +Nineteen ninety three is gonna be the first year in which the full benefits of this cost cutting are gonna come through and whilst it's always a continuing process and there will be some further redundancies, I am glad to say that we believe that the bulk of the redundancies are now behind us. +We've re-aligned our cost space which makes us more profitable at the existing levels of demand and potentially very profitable indeed er er when you consider that we have the capacity to respond to any upturn in demand without increasing our costs. +The underlying point I'd just like to give an example er of how the F T would benefit er if a recovery takes place. +For every extra hundred fee of advertising revenue we add seventy five P to operate in profit. +Any upturn in demand also produces a substantial improvement in profit in several other of our businesses, for instance Westminster Press,Les Echo Lazards Tussaud and I'd like to remind people that we're a very second half oriented company and that in the first half of nineteen ninety two we had some major one-off contributions to profits which very much helped the figures, but nonetheless, we're pleased at the way the trading profits of the operating companies are moving. +It's early days er to make predictions, but we're off to a positive start for the year. +Thank you very much and we'd like now to answer any questions that you may have. +Yes? +We have microphones. +Do you want to say who we are? +Sorry? +Do you want to say who we are? +No, I, I think we know. +Okay. +Erm the Financial Times you showed er I think including the F T Group and Les Echo er in, in the profit analysis, but you did say that their operating profit was up ten percent th the F T Group which I take it to mean they made fourteen point three, leaving I think four point two to Les Echo You did also say that Les Echo had gone from strength to strength but f from my figures I think it's a third successive decline in their profit. +Would you like to, to explain what from strength to strength means or whether I've got my figures wrong erm a and, and perhaps give an idea of what from strength to strength will mean in coming years? +Er I think in this context strength to strength is talking about market share, erm Frank er was saying how we've made considerable gains in relation to the opposition and er such an extent that in fact er it had to join up with the er er er with the other financial newspaper, but Frank would you, would you like to add? +Yes. +The circulation is erm is has grown every year we've had it and that's very important because erm a lot of the subscrip a lot of the circulation of Les Echo is in fact a subscription in advance such it's cash generating qualities are high even when the profits are down. +Now the profits are down erm mainly because of the er the recession in France which started later than U K, and secondly because we've er we've er re-launched Bonjour and so we have the re-lau re-launch cost there. +Er James would you like to +Well I think Robert's, er I mean Robert's always a good guide on these matters I mean the F +The F T +The F T itself as it were profits were up erm about up to about fourteen million and erm Les Echo was just over four. +Yes? +I'm er +Sorry +I'm curious about the oil services. +The profit was down thirty million or so and if we look at the geographic breakdown of profit, er the U S A was up er and yet if er Addison Wesley was about the same Penguin was up ten so where did this thirty million drop in profits at oil services arise, was it in the U K and Singapore as opposed to the U S or, or was there something different about Penguin U S compared with Penguin U K? +David, would you like to? +Well I think if I could ask James to help on the geographic spread of the profits overall and then I could perhaps supplement that afterwards on the oil services. +The erm, yes Camco's profits were down in the U S, but Penguin North America was substantially up, erm and Addison Wesley of course was up in erm dollar terms. +Th this er the, the small increase in sterling of er Addison Wesley in fact under er I mean it didn't do them justice in dollar terms they were up fourteen percent. +Erm th that's the main er so overall you had a net gain in fact to erm U S profits er Camco erm I think less than that erm Camco's profits to were spread fairly broadly geographically er as you do know it does operate as you do rightly point out erm pretty much everywhere else and it's erm featured both in South America and Asia's decline and Africa, but not in Europe. +It was up in Europe but down in the U K. +Yes? +Erm can I just clarify that the thirty million of erm savings, was that actual redundancy costs which took place in ninety two or was that redundancy costs plus the sav commensurate savings which will then benefit ninety three er or was it just the savings? +Frank, would you? +Erm, I think what I said was that as a result of these actions, the payroll would be thirty million less in ninety three than ninety two. +That's what I was meaning. +So that doesn't include any redundancy costs? +Well the redundancy costs erm er taken in ninety two so +But does the thirty million include the redundancy costs or is that just the savings? +The redundancy costs are part of the savings. +No the +no listen the redundancy cost is taken in, in ninety two an and therefore the payroll is better is less by thirty million in ninety three, so that's that's the benefit there. +Costs are in ninety two and therefore there was a cha there was a charge there was a net charge in ninety two and in ninety three the payroll will be thirty million less than it would have been. +In ninety two there were redundancy costs to some extent offset by some er savings in payroll, there'll by no redundancy cost relating to those previous redundancies in ninety three, but there will be the full saving on the payroll. +So anyway +Yes we can. +thirteen million +Is that thirteen or thirty million? +Thirteen, one figures one three. +That's the gross cost actual cost of redundancies. +Obviously there's some depending when they, depending on what time of the year you will get some of the savings. +Michael can I add something? +Yes. +I'd just like to add that included in the numbers that I gave you for Camco were not just redundancy costs, but costs of closures of sales offices, distribution networks and some other special one-time charges, so it's not pure redundancy when you look at the numbers that I gave you earlier on. +Sorry, we had a question. +Over here Go on. +The erm on the cash flow numbers exchange and other erm can, can you split out what the er what the figures actually were, how much they and +James. +Erm yes I mean they're I'm groping for my briefing papers a complicated one this. +Er it's mainly er the change in, in foreign currency debt erm and erm the year end debt er er erm the point is we had rather more dollars at the beginning of the year than at the end of the year erm and erm which, which complicates matters, but if you look at our year end debt in dollar terms th erm there was a thirty nine million pound erm adverse movement year on year as a result of that. +The rest of provision the rest of the, of the movement are things like provisions which increased during the year much smaller number. +That, that brings you up to the +Yes? +Erm over the last three years . +Is that right? +Sorry, the? +profits. +Oh yes. +They will not occur in ninety three. +I thought you said Camco from Capco sorry, yeah. +Other way round. +Yes. +Big difference. +Big difference. +Involved, in, in that conglomeration. +Well th the profits of the sale fixed assets that the shares and would be if there were any the sale profits on the sale of any other pieces of land at Lakeside or indeed elsewhere in the group and we sold a site not in ninety two, it was ninety one at Frinton I think you'll remember that so small profits. +Correct. +Therefore what is now called corporate this other income is the erm basically head office cost, there's things like profits on from our captive insurance er dividends which we didn't have it in fact last year we did the year before from Blackpool land, small profits from the sale of some shares at Fair and other odds and ends which I erm really don't make up a great deal. +Yeah any other current assets sales. +That's basically it, current asset and investment sales. +Okay Ken. +twelve months ago you sorry twelve months ago you possibility that the falling out of the capital and accounts profits might be replaced by er taking some credit for the obvious major turnaround of B-Sky-B and I wonder whether you could elucidate on the prospects of that? +Mm. +Well I would, I would, I would just comment that there er in profits have er have it doesn't mean to say that we won't have some profits from our estate at Thurrock because there are other areas of land involved, but they won't be so substantial and for B-Sky-B I would turn to Frank. +Er well erm Pearson is always er er rather cautious of these things, but I think have, are, are very cautious and might take the view if things progress as they are er in the second half of this year that we will er take some credit. +James. +We've got erm yes we've got quite a lot of land stock interest we might have accrued er and haven't, erm thirty million pounds in fact, but erm it hasn't been accrued because in our view it's some years off for being paid, but we think er or so I'm informed by the Chairman of B-Sky-B er that things are going quite well +and erm therefore this year er there is a case for saying we shall start to accrue some of the backlog er to the extent, but only to the extent we will expected to be paid shortly thereafterwards. +We don't want to accrue er interest even if it's being expenses by B-Sky-B if it's not going to actually be paid for many years, but to the extent that it's er likely to turn into cash in the relatively near future, then I think we would erm think it's now time to start addressing that issue and the result would be that we should probably erm accrue some reasonable and not very substantial amount of back-interest er in the current financial year. +We have two questions, Robert would you like to address? +Yes +First of all the interest er it ranks higher up the hierarchy. +to this year's figures when reported next year? +Don't think so. +No. +No, no it would just bring it up to date, the stuff we haven't accrued. +of the accrued guarantee +Yes, if you'll give me a moment to find them. +And while we're waiting? +Yes. +Frank? +I, I'm not sure what you mean by the costs. +excluded the double running of er redundancy costs and the other items we just mentioned. +Erm I think that would, that would add about erm say about f four, four and a half million to the profit and the second part of the question Ken? +Well we told Westminster Press to introduce a budget on the basis that even if there was no revenue increase, er we would achieve a, a respectable trading margin erm and so that will happen. +Now that the only thing to offset th that this year will be the continuing development losses of on Sunday. +Current trading is erm current trading is improving and I would say that er that the last three weeks have been the strongest weeks this year. +It's improving as the year goes on. +Er I think there's er one problem of course is that regional newspapers do depend on situations vacant quite a bit and the situations vacant market isn't improving dramatically. +Can I just answer the question I, I dodged? +Eleven million erm, but they're some way down the track, they're not at the top of the hierarchy +Erm the cash as and when it does start coming through from er from B-Sky-B and the fact that you've actually er promised some of that to read in lieu of the increased er erm equity stake indirect equity stake. +How can you actually account for that because either you could er increase your profits by the accrued amounts and then somewhere else balance sheet and should pay for your acquisition +Yes well we haven't promised that amount, we've promised an amount equivalent to what we were gonna get carefully. +I E we're not er we're not the erm the interest and dividend we will be making cash amounts cash payments to read equal to the amounts we actually get from B-Sky-B as and when we get them, but we will therefore accrue them as income and the payments we've made will be payments that will be part of the cost of the investment. +Okay and you said you'd start accruing the er erm the interest as and when the er time you were gonna receive the cash became er reasonably clear +Thank you. +So that the incremental, only the incremental erm in respect of the incremental er er er percentage. +You're quite right. +Yes. +At the erm at the meeting recently they, they made it clear that er the deal has not yet been finalized. +Can you, can you give us any idea when it'll close? +This week. +Friday +Sorry. +David and I. +Yes. +Do you wanna, do you wanna start? +I'll let you start +You want me to start. +I, I, well let me start first of all like most companies this has been erm er concentrated wonderfully in er reconsidering the plans and this means that quite seriously that erm er the cost cannot be precisely in the accounts because there's a redesign . +It's a bit of oh my God, I didn't realize we let ourselves in for that much and I, I don't think that's quite fair of us, although I think we, we had a but some operating companies were, have certainly realized that they had erm material potential liabilities down the track led to redesign. +Erm the I think er two comments for David is close to this and the one that we don't expect the P and L charge starting in ninety three and going onwards to be quotes material I E it's getting quite modest, it's not sort of mega bucks. +It is relating obviously not entirely, but overwhelmingly to U S employers. +Secondly there would be a one-time hit for Pryers and that would buy a Pryer adjustment, er we're not gonna spread it forward. +Did everybody hear the question? +Yes. +Well,i i if I, the,on one of the comments I'd make is that it's the only time I've ever known the accounting profession to do businessmen a favour by forcing them to face up to what the costs of the consequences of their actions are and this has as James said led to looking quite carefully and I think it's difficult to quantify the cost at the moment for a variety of reasons. +We have overhauled the plans in some of the companies, we've considered changes that should be done to erm make them more, actually more cost effective for the employee, there's an element of shifting the cost to the employee while still providing them with coverage and I think the other thing is that erm given the the redundancies that have gone on in Camco and other parts of the group and cost cutting generally, it's very difficult at this stage to predict you have all sorts of things like actuarial assumptions erm cost inflation of medical costs. +I mean I don't wanna make it sound like it's,i i i it's, it's an impossible thing, but it's very difficult at this stage to forecast, but James' basic assertion that it isn't a very material number is correct. +Yes Charles? +Er sorry. +A question on the er oil service operations. +I think at one point that the cash flow figure of fourteen point three million appeared. +Can you say how much was taken out of working capital at the er oil services operations last year and a supplementary point assuming that about seventy percent of oil service revenues were international, international last year, er how significant would the North Sea be within that international figure and t to what degree have the budget changes impacted there or will impact there, because we're already starting to hear some er fairly nasty noises aren't we from ? +Perhaps David might like to deal with North Sea first and then James. +With the the financial question? +Yeah I think on the North Sea, it obviously would have erm an effect on parts of our business, some parts more than others erm it's very early to say exactly what, what effect it obviously in fact to the extent that it encourages the further development of existing fields that clearly benefits parts, parts of our business that are to do with completion equipment and development equipment. +Er the worst side obviously will be the drill bit side where Retool is not very significant in the North Sea Hycal on the other hand has a very strong market presence here er and Reler being submersible pumps and base based in enhanced recovery I would say the effect would be relatively neutral, though they do a lot of business with companies like B P who are said to be one of the beneficiaries. +I mean I think the, I, I think it can effect this, but not that materially erm there are many as you know different provinces round the world and what happens in the C I S is, is obviously very important for the Middle East and so erm it will have an impact. +Perhaps a erm perhaps a lesser impact than on the economy of Great Britain in the long run as to, as to whether those resources are developed effectively. +Working capital reduction of by Camco +Yes. +the six million erm U K pension cost isn't ongoing level and just going back to that er post-retirement medical benefits it wouldn't be material I mean definition material can be er something less than five percent of profits. +Are we talking about a figure that could be approaching that sort of level, or substantially lower? +Er one question less than five percent it will not be but I don't want to go and indeed I, for reasons that er David outlined, I can't go, can't be precise, but er it's not something to get scared about. +Er, do you wanna add? +I was only gonna say we're, we will probably have a much clearer idea by the time we get to the results. +The, the U K pension charge will er er er go up to the extent that pensionable salaries go up, there's a standard surplus being amortized au fait gently rising pension, I mean there's obviously there's an X percent of pensionable salaries is what the will tell you will have to provide and er er not much more at the moment er therefore the charge will go up a little bit but not, not gradually and it's not much. +There's two questions though. +Erm, I'm sorry to come back to the central overheads er again, but erm it, considering that the other income largely related to ninety one, I'm a little unclear why the central costs went down, I can't believe there's been any salary cuts at +No we're not that. +Er no we had some larger other income erm I'm turning up the detail as we speak. +There were the sale of er the shares of erm Cedar Fair, our current, which is one of our current assets and investments. +We sold one percent, one percent David? +Yes. +Erm towards the end of the year and the erm and Spear erm Spear had rather a good year, so that's our capital insurance company in Bermuda erm no claims. +So that had rather er I mean that made er made it's not big potatoes, but it made more than a year ago and there were small movements on provision adjustments. +That's all, so the the income was up, costs were costs were marginally down costs were down. +reduction of the costs appears in ink. +Mr must have been very austere with his colleagues or +On the oil services division are there likely to be any further technology transfers this year and er secondly could David give some idea of the impact of the proposed B T U Tax in the United States? +On the technology transfer er I don't think that there will be any income this year, if there is it will be quite modest, we're talking about three to four million dollars and it's related to follow-up payments for training. +In fact given the, what's happened politically in what was Czechoslovakia and is now the Czech Lands and Slovakia, erm and the financial pressures in Slovakia it's not certain to me that the whole arrangement will go forward. +There's no problem from our point of view if that happens, but we're looking you know quite closely at it and we'll wait and see what happens. +So far as the B T U Tax is concerned, erm it's really a political issue as to where the administration or the Congress in the end decide to place the tax, I mean in very simple terms the nearer you place it to the consumer, the more effective it is, but the less politically palatable it is which because consumers vote and oil companies don't an and so er I think it will be political pressure to push it nearer to the well head which will be less good for the oil and gas producers. +I suspect a classic Washington compromise in the end. +adverse variance fee this year? +No I don't think so, but I mean I think on the whole that the pop the admin the erm Clinton Administrations Policy is to try and encourage the development of nat the use of natural gas, it's environmentally er more acceptable and so I don't see any particular erm direct threat this year. +Yes? +what average rate did you pay on it and what average rate are you paying this year? +Erm average net debt was down. +I haven't got er I have to give you the figure afterwards erm no I have got it, I have got it. +Erm it was about a hundred and fifty million, but I haven't got it for nineteen ninety one erm Lorna, sorry you had some more questions parts B, C and D +Average rate. +Er accrued rate accrued rate was about erm on the, on the, on the interest charge was eight nine, but erm er there are a lot of adjustments in there which we've looked at. +I mean let's take one er because of the hyper- inflation in Venezuela you pay fifty percent on debt there. +Er we have some credit. +Well that's two million pounds interestingly erm there are costs er er er we had some of our U S interest rates and we er that actually was an outgoing erm there, there are lots of other pluses and minuses and we, you can kid yourself the rate being eight point nine accrued and five and a half adjusted er if you want to think you know if you th think the treasury job was a good one, but erm the truth lies somewhere in between I suspect. +what do you think the average ? +The average interest rate? +Erm I, I'll come back to you on that one. +Yes. +Can you tell us a little about the prospects of fine china in ninety three? +Well I think er what I'll do because Stuart who's the C E O rather happens to be with us er I think I'll ask Stuart if he would like to make a few remarks. +Stuart? +It's really too early to say. +The first three months of this year we've had an increase in sales, but those have really been attributable to improved er t to stronger U S and Canadian currency rates. +Erm volumes are about level with last year and the improvement in profits is related to currency changes. +So I, I wouldn't to be drawn on that Royal Doulton was late into this cycle and it's a little later than the publishing companies coming out. +Yes? +ninety two, ninety three and ninety four. +Yes. +Who would like to do that? +Erm +There wasn't much from our point of view from Addison Wesleys in ninety two. +Bills up in ninety three and ninety four. +The revise is every year. +Th there's a revision each year, but there's no major reduction er programmes this, in the current year. +In fact this is a year when we're spending for the next adoptions. +Yes? +prospects there? +Well, er I think that and I get it James and I go to Friday Lazard meetings, I think there is er a erm better feeling and we would look for progress in ninety three. +Is, is there +Er in Lazard Brothers in particular? +Yes. +Erm +With +Yes I think th that, that er it did give, it did, it did give opportunities, but I mean it's not a, it's not an enormously major erm part of our overall Lazard business. +Er James would you like to add? +Yeah I mean I er er er clearly like m m most banks,th th th they found some useful opportunities in September, but I mean I don't say they're not huge players they don't have enormous capital they're not strict punters in, in, in any of the markets. +Yes? +Sorry, would you like +Has there been any major change in the distribution of debt and cash erm of nineteen ninety two er compared to nineteen ninety one? +No other than the er er er the currencies pretty much the same er as I said of the important changes i is a much heavier emphasis on variable rates . +Yes +A are you still intending to favour internal spending vis-a-vis acquisition opportunities on the basis that acquisitions are just too overpriced or with the eleven percent gearing do you think you will be er jumping at the bit a bit fairly soon? +Er I think, I think that er our organic growth tends to be erm er er continuous and er as you know each year we're spending erm substantial amounts er on that er we prefer organic growth to acquisitions because we avoid er premiums in the long run er frequently er organic growth is, is actually more profitable er but we are quite likely to make some acquisitions er if erm the right er strategic opportunities er are created. +We o er as, as you know we always review er er er er our businesses as subject to a continual view, I have nothing er active to report on that front. +Yes? +erm shareholding in the current year? +It's stayed around about the eight just over eight percent, there hasn't, there hasn't been much movement. +Just on the export front increased optimism er can you just verify what export sales were last year and whether or not you managed to er er hold er local county prices overseas in respect of those exports? +And what +Y +sort of kick-offs if any there was on in transactional terms last year Royal Doulton month erm sorry eighteen month type basis? +Yes. +James? +Erm well you've Stuart who erm had it at his fingertips equally, but er they have substantial, I, I'll let him talk about oh, over fifty percent export are you not Stuart? +Your turn er and they have erm they do hedge this is I mean our policy is broadly to hedge er o on a twelve month rolling forecast forward er to what extent and what timing is a function of judgment and it is true that the erm er Doulton receivables for ninety three are seventy percent hedged already at a little above the current spot rate. +Erm but er er I think will provide still very good factory profit for them and there is also of course er this, there's still more to come. +Th they're our largest exporter er there's inter-company sales which would gen can generate quite useful profits since they get sold on both of er Penguin companies er and Longman of course has a high content of erm er of er non-U K sales and Addison Wesley also er I mean Camco was the most international, but it's erm not er it's not an exporter in sterling denominated terms. +Er but I think also the lower value of the pound er affects Madame Tussaud and the number of visitors here and Michael C O Madame Tussaud, would you Michael like to comment on tourist numbers? +Er obviously the erm better for overseas visitors pound will help tourism in this country, particularly in London erm the Chairman says Madame Tussauds in fact gets about sixty percent visitors over from overseas,Rock Circus at the moment is about fifty percent and it's still rising, which partially explains why it had a very good year last year. +Warwick Castle gets about forty percent of visitors from overseas with whom a large proportion are Americans, and er I suggest that the increase in Americans this year will be quite good compared with figures for last year, so we do benefit er I might even mention that in Holland er over half the visitors Exhibition in Amsterdam are not Dutch, many of them are Germans, but there are also Americans and of course other overseas visitors there. +So erm foreign earnings is important for us. +Our parks, Alton Towers and Chessington get a very insignificant amount of overseas visitors which is normal for such places in this country and many other places in the world. +But erm, we're reasonably optimistic about visitor numbers. +The concern in London particularly of course is the incidents of terrorist in of terrorist incidents, and that undoubtedly affected er visitation in London, not just at our places, but in most tourist attractions, particularly towards the end of last year. +On the other hand it has to be said that the er publicity for that does not seem to have penetrated very far amongst foreign visitors and there isn't very much evidence that foreign visitors have been put off coming here in spite of the considerable number of incidents that there have been in this country, particularly in London of course in the last year or so. +It's affected mainly the U K visitors. +So we try not to mention them. +We try not to mention David. +Did you +did you consider er an accelerated second interim dividend? +I'm glad you asked that erm yes we did, we did give it consideration er er we decided against it, because it would have meant er to declaring the dividend on Friday for technical reasons and announcing our results erm today and this could have been in danger of misleading er the market er because this lower results and we have an increased dividend and that was erm probably the main reason why we decided that we wouldn't do it er the slight increase in net dividend in fact should compensate erm and this is coincidence er er f fo for the increased A C T on the +Yes? +Could you give us some indi give us some indication as to how erm supportable the excellent performance in Penguin is likely to be through nineteen ninety three looking forward, you obviously have a particularly high level of best sellers? +Well it was a particularly er high level of best sellers to erm er er Stephen King's erm and what I'm glad to say is that this is continuing into ninety three and I think we've got eight er eight best sellers on the, on the New York Times best seller list, so er you know prospects for ninety three also look, look, look good. +Yeah I believe recently have indicated they will start B-Sky-B will you and if so, when? +James? +Well they said maybe they will, maybe they won't according to the press releases that turn up. +Erm I think we're er er we're quite clear at the moment that the correct erm interpretation of it from our point of view is as a fixed asset investment and unless something changes in the er constitution of the company, erm although it may be erm the guiding thing become profitable I think one's got to play by the rules and the rules at the moment say it isn't one. +Which doesn't mean to say we won't have substantial erm P and L er contribution fro from B-Sky-B. +Any more questions er? +Well thank you very much indeed for coming and er then if anybody wants to ask any further questions privately, they're welcome. + +No the +Okay. +Hello. +Hiya. +Well is this the day you've to have your head cut off? +Your mum? +Me? +Your mum to get her head cut off? +Has she? +Mhm. +You sure? +Mm . +You'd have a headless mum. +Mm. +Mm? +Do you want the doctor ? +Na. +Na +Na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na. +Now then what what'll we do to your mum? +Can I have a signing off form for the insurance please? +Well would you te +pulse +I'm gonna get in a minute as well, she's just gonna . +Just be quiet Stacey, please. +Ob no. +Are you sure you don't want your head cut off? +Na. +Go on. +Na. +Na. +Na na, na,na. +Eh so whe what day do you want to be signed off for then for this? +Just today. +Today right. +Stacey will you show him . +Can I have my +I don't +water tablets please Doctor? +Hold on to that for your mum. +And sleeping pills. +Sleeping +Just but I've got a sore back as well. +Sore back. +It's just cos they +Okay? +She says that to half the town. +mummy . +I think maybe we'll put you in the bin. +Mm +Give you mum some peace and quiet. +Not me. +Mm +Does she know him? +I'm going to this . +Have go out and play. +go out and play this +Mm? +time,there's nobody else out playing . +Everybody in the block was still sleeping when we +Yeah. +left this morning. +Mm. +I know they quite right They can get a long lie. +They're not getting a long lie. +There's wrong with having a bit +All the day all the day's wasted isn't it? +Mhm. +Give that to your mum. +That's a girl. +The next time you come can I cut your head off? +Bye bye. +Can I cut your head off the next time? +Can I? +Maybe +Can I cut your head off the next time? +Cheerio. +Cheerio. +Cheerio now. + +You told me that when you went to work for was the first time you came across abortion really in . +Yes it was yes . +What was your experience there? +Er well whe er when I first went to I'd already lost two children and er the girls knew that I worked with the t last two children. +And I became pregnant again and they were falling over themselves to do an abortion for me. +I mean there were several people but m the surprising was the person in charge of of the work girls you see. +She offered to do one and I I was shocked because we wer we wanted a baby you see, we wanted the baby. +They couldn't understand that. +Most of the husbands were in the Forces and mine was at home and er any way er before I left two two different women had had babies and had abortions and died. +One was er she'd be about thirty six the first one, and er she didn't come to work one day and er the girl, in the afternoon the girl c , her daughter, she was fifteen, er she came to speak to me and she said er, Oh, I said, Hello,how's your mum , is she poorly? +She said, She's dead. +And she'd had an abortion the night before and she'd died that day on the Monday. +She'd had an abortion on the Sunday and she'd died on the Monday. +Course I di I didn't get to know much else but it was obvious you see, she'd been going out with a young man, her husband was in the Forces and er she'd tried to get rid of it. +She died. +And er the same thing happened about another one. +Er this was very surprising as well. +This person had got one son about twelve, and her husband was in the Forces as well. +And er she was missing, and one day I saw her sister-in-law and I said, Where, how is she? +Wh Is she ill or what? +She says, I'm afraid she's dead. +She died through an a backstreet abortion you see. +See you couldn't go and have an a an a illegal a legal abortion in those days, it was all backstreet abortions. +And the thing that was said a lot was a Slippery Elm stick, well I still don't really know what it was but er it was a kind of a s , bark of the Slippery Elms, a Slippery Elm bark or something and they sharpened it to a point and inserted that into the womb you see and it was done, and then of course I heard a lot about gin, sitting in a hot bath with gin. +I mean really I er it shook me because I was extremely naive, I'd had two children but I was very very naive in those days. +And er people was of often off for day or two, I mean really nice people, they weren't they weren't bad people, they were really nice people but they it was nature you see. +Their husbands were away and they didn't know if they'd come back or not and er, one girl er th this wasn't at the , near where I used to live at . +She became pregnant, it was at the ending of the War, when the War was ending you know. +And er she'd tried to get rid of it and she couldn't, so she found out her husband was coming home, he was actually in the boat coming back and she didn't know what to do. +In the end she sent him a telegram to explain you know that she was pregnant with a another man. +About three days after she had er the abortion started to work and she lost the baby. +He came back but he forgave her. +He was ver , you know he was really nice about it. +He said, Well er, you know, it's just that, I mean with nature being what it is you see. +She wasn't a bad wife or anything like that, it was just that she'd met this man at work, where she worked, they both worked at a dry cleaning place. +And er but of course she did lose the baby. +She'd been trying to get rid of it and then suddenly it worked and she lost the baby. +So most of the people who were having abortions were people who were having a child by some other man? +Oh yeah. +Yes. +I wonder I was wondering whether some people were having abortion because they perhaps already had too many children? +Well I I di I didn't kno I never met anybody i in in that category. +Er er you see it was all, with me it was when I, at the time I went to work and er I had to leave work to have my baby you see. +And it and this, the one, the last one was just after I left so I didn't know her, I knew her to look at but I didn't know her personally. +And er th they were all people whose husbands were in the Forces fighting +Mm. +you know it was terr terrible times +Mhm. +really. +And as you said it seemed to be erm the norm that people assumed that if you were pregnant that you didn't want to be and therefore +Yeah, yeah, yes. +you would be looking for an abortion so people , +Yeah. +it doesn't sound as if people had much inhibitions about coming up to you and asking you . +N no , well see what happened to me, I mean this person came and she said er, Er if you like I'll do it for you. +I said, Do what? +She said, I I'll abort your baby for you. +She said, I've done lots, she said. +Er you'll be alright, you'll be safe. +Couldn't believe it, you just couldn't believe what you was hearing, you know. +Cos I so, we so desperately wanted a baby. +I mean losing two, our last one a mo a month old and one at er two month old. +And losing two like that, I still wanted a baby. +And er of course I was lucky the next time see. +But I just couldn't believe that people would be willing to do do that kind of thing, you know. +Was there just one lady who used to do the abortions at er or lots of different people ? +Oh no, oh I think there was quite a few. +I mean she was just in our department you see. +Er you see you sort of lived in one li small environment where, er with us it was er a certain room. +We examined these magazines for shells, we examined them to see if they were perfect. +But there was big, it was a huge place, you know , and there were a lot of women that did really heavy men's work, we weren't doing men's work. +We were doing what women could could do anytime, you know. +But in the er in the big shops where women did really heavy work and and really mixed with the men. +There was quite a lot of it went on. +You used to hear about it you know. +I I could never I never knew anybody personally because er you know you just used to go work and then go home and that was it. +I was away from work. +Er you know you didn't sort of erm, you didn't mix a lot, you know really. +Everybody had their own problems and I had mine with losing two the two babies, I had mine wondering if I'd lose another you see and that that was my particular worry at the time. +And tell me about the lady who did abortions, erm, did you know very much about what sort of people they were? +Erm +The one in particular in your department . +The one in our department. +Erm well she was quite a very well spoken presentable person, you know. +But she'd got this little bit of oh I don't know, a little bit of coarseness about her. +You know. +Er just that little bit th that you felt, that I wasn't, er you could imagine her doing it, you know. +I mean to me the boss of of our bench, there was probably twenty people on the bench, to me the boss of that it wasn't what you call a particularly good job but she'd always worked at the and of course when when went on War work er th those that were still there they got the better jobs you see, to organize us that hadn't been, worked there before. +And I wouldn't I I heard of a s very sleazy woman er near where I used to live, er I never met her, but it was all hearsay how many abortions she did. +You know she's er she lived in a very tiny house at at . +I never met her and it was just talk in the shops, the corner shops were in those days were the gossip places, you know. +And it w not like today the supermarket, every corner shop had it's own particular news of the world you know and my mother-in-law used to go down and she used to come up and tell me all these things about the things that were going on. +She was the first to get to get to know about the lady whose husband was coming back from the Forces. +She was the first to get to know about that you see and she'd come round and tell me. +Because she lived against this woman. +Do you think that the ladies who did abortions did it mainly for money, or wer was it sort of concern for ? +Er maybe some, I think quite a few did it for money because money was short in, really. +But I think a lot of them were genuinely concerned, as in my case I think this person was genuinely worried about me because I'd had, it was my third child and I I do think she was er worried about me because er you know you don't want to keep having babies and losing them but I wasn't worried about, I was worried about myself, to say I wasn't worried that's stupid, but er we just hoped and hoped and kept hoping. +No I think sh I think she was genuinely concerned. +She'd she certainly didn't want the money cos she'd got, her husband was a er you know she had er money from her husband and she had good wages at the you see with her being in charge er she had quite good wages. +But I you know +how much they charged for abortions, you've no idea ? +No , no I haven't any idea at all about that. +I never I never got too familiar to that extent you know. +Probably a lot of people could tell you, you know. +I I couldn't tell you that. +But she she said, You'll be alright, you'll be alright, I'll do it. +You know. +Quite erm +And how did she go about abortions, do you know? +Well the only thing I've heard that she did was this, sounds stupid, Slippery Elm stick. +I mean it it sounds stupid, but a person I knew, she was about as stupid as i was as naive as I was, because er she was pregnant, her husband wasn't away but she'd got how many, five, four children, she'd lost three children and she'd got, then she had four, and then she found herself pregnant again. +And er half heatedly she decided she ought, she couldn't have any more children you know she'd, I don't think it was money so much that she thought she'd got enough and somebody told her about this Slippery Elm, well you could get a Slippery Elm drink, you know you know these milky foods if you've got a poor tummy, that that can, er she bought a tin of this Slippery Elm drink, and she drunk gallons of it and it was doing her good and she thought er she thought it wouldn't, she'd gone wrong you see . +It was the Slippery Elm bark I think that's what it was called. +And the people used to sharpen it to a point, why the Slippery Elm I don't know, I've often wondered about it really, but his person I'm telling you about she she was delivered of a good healthy boy and everything was alright. +Yes she's somebody I knew very very well indeed. +And er every time he was, the boy was ill after she said, That's through me taking that Slippery Elm that, that, I've done it. +She was very, she didn't really want to get rid of the baby, not really, I think I think perhaps somebody had put the idea into her head you've got enough children you shouldn't have any more. +But I think she was like me she didn't really want to get rid of her baby. +But er he did the boy did suffer with a bit of stomach trouble in later life and she always blamed herself. +But I've never really known about the Slippery Elm stick,wh , er didn't get to the bottom of it, you know, what it was. +How did the other women feel about women who had abortions at the, at ? +Well there were one or two that was a bit, got on their high horse, you know and say, It's disgusting and that, but er I never did because er in cases like that I think there but for the grace of God, you know I I wouldn't condemn people, in those, we were living in very abnormal times you see. +I mean people were dying, men were dying, my brother died, he got killed in the War,pe every day you went to work and somebody would tell you, So and so's died, you remember so and so, he's died. +And we were living in very a abnormal times, and women were snatching at a little bit of happiness they could get, you know this is what it was. +But they were condemned by some people, there al there's always condemners, aren't there really. +Mm. +But I I wouldn't er if I hear of a girl getting pregnant er you know now now it's a very common thing I know, but sometimes I feel really sorry for the girls because it's tying yourself fifteen, sixteen tying yourself down to children. +And I so desperately wanted children. +But er there there were there were some pe our, our, on the bench that we we had a really, cross section on the bench that I worked on, there were very, women, one woman she'd never been to work in her life. +And she liked the idea of going to work you see, she'd she'd got a family, she'd be about oh she was about ten years older than I was and erm she looked out of place you know. +I I became a great friend of hers actually, er she looked out of place on the bench. +She spoke very nicely and she was a very nice person but she was a little bit er you know, It's disgusting, she used to say. +It isn't right you know, it's disgusting . +But she'd got no problems, her husband was at home and er her little world was okay you see. +But I mean people lived in those days you know I mean , you know where the is don't you? +Well a lot of those people lived round there and they were hovels. +Th they were really hovels, I mean,you know when I hear people talking about the good comradeship and that. +There was to a certain extent but some of the homes were hovels. +Back to back. +I mean you you, I went to one one person's house, and er you went in the door in the terrace there there was a room. +Erm that was the one room. +There was a tap in the room, there was just one room, then one room there and one room there. +Mm. +Er where would with er would've been a front room that was another house. +You see they were back to back. +Yes. +And it it was, I mean I was brought up in the country and it, I found it really shocking that people had to live like that, you know. +I mean we weren't er,m my dad was a miner. +We we we lived but we had a comfortable home, and I er I thought it was a lovely home actually. +Somebody once said we were, erm, These are slums. +Oh I was furious, I was very proud of my home, you know, I thought it, my home was lovely. +I I've always been that way inclined, I mean my dad was er he he was a miner, he was a lovely dad, he was lovely man. +My mum my mum was the best mum ever. +My daughter said I'm partisan. +My my middle daughter she said, Very partisan mum. +No, I said, I'm not, but I've never been ashamed of er of er of my parents and my background. +I think you can always learn a lot from your background and your parents. +Ca can you tell me another thing about the abortions, do you know erm if, of course abortion was illegal then, do you +Oh yes. +know if the police ever took any action, particularly about these ladies who died, did you hear +Erm. +anything? +No, no actually I don't. +I don't know. +And I was never one really to ask questions, I I daren't ask questions, I used, people told me things, that was it. +But I think the the where we lived er er there was this woman that was well known for doing, and she lived in a very tiny house. +Er I think she was in trouble with the police. +Er I can remember the the news going around that er the police had been to visit, it was actually it was the next street to where I lived. +And er she was in trouble but I didn't know the outcome, er you know. +I think I was a little bit airy-fairy really, I used to live in a world of me own,I didn't, I wasn't terribly interested you know. +If people told me that was all well and good but if they didn't, but I did hear about this erm er she did the operation on the girl who er who couldn't get rid of her baby, and then it, she lo she sent she sent a telegram to her husband or a letter er it took a long while to come from the Far East, he was in the Far East. +And it took a long while for the letters to get there but he knew while he was on the boat that his wife was pregnant and er when he got here, she'd it'd been aborted. +It was a late abortion it didn't work straight away, it m probably the baby died but it didn't come away from her you see and er, it was a shame, but she oh she was called a very bad woman you know because her husband was fighting for his country and and er you know. +But er he he came back and they had er they had two more children actually. +Cos they they didn't live far from me, I did know her by sight. +Can you tell me then another side of this problem of abortion during the War is erm the problem of contraception then, erm I wonder do you think that people weren't aware of facilities for contraception then during the War? +Well +Or wh what was happening? +Well I think a lot of it was erm ignorance. +I mean I there was a thing I don't know if anybody's told Pessaries, Doctor Pessaries, that you could use. +I used them and they worked for me. +I I was very keen er when I had my daughter erm I was quite happy about it and I I I used them, then after three years I didn't use them. +But they worked for me. +But you see you've got to know what you're doing, you've got to really look after yourself. +I mean I, it's no good me husbands to look af , I I this is my second husband but er with my first husband er I I sort of erm if it's been left to him, God bless him, he's dead now but if it'd been left to him I'd have had a houseful of children you know. +So I had to look after myself so I I had one and then I had the other one, just stop at two. +Er but I used to tell people and they you know people near me that had a lot of children and er they'd moan and groan about it, I heard one woman say erm, she'd had quite a few children and I I'd been in hospital and I said er, er a certain person that'd had a baby had lost it. +She said, Ooh she's one of the lucky ones, she said, I couldn't get rid of mine. +And now that was the attitude that that that they they had that er a lot of them, not not everybody of course that just and she had this attitude, erm anybody that had lost their baby were lucky, you see. +And she'd I think she had about eight, over over a period of years you know. +And think this woman that had lost her baby she said, she's one of the lucky so and so's you know she lost hers, I couldn't get rid of mine. +She'd tried and she she didn't, her husband was at home he wasn't in the Forces but th this was the attitude. +Would people go to their doctors to ask for contraceptive advice ? +Oh don't think so, don't think they'd dare. +I daren't have done if I hadn't er oh oh I know once my my doctor came to see me about something and there was erm a lot of people used to use er some pills oh what were they called, little round pills, when at the monthly periods they used to use them, oh Doctor Johnson's, Doctor somebody's pills, now they would have the effect of er your period you would see more than you usually did. +But I remember I'd got a box on my mantlepiece erm not only was I using the pessaries but I was also taking these when the period was due. +And erm I mean they were quite they wouldn't they wouldn't get rid of a baby, but a lot of people thought they would. +I mean my doctor saw them, he said, What you taking these for? +I said, Well I take them cos I have a lot, I used to have an awful lot of pain every month, I did, and it i this used to prevent the pain. +And er he said, You can ask me for anything, cos he was a strong Catholic you see and he wouldn't he didn't believe in anything to do with birth control. +Erm i if you want anything to stop the pain I'll give it you. +Er so I said, Alright I'll stop taking them which I didn't anyway, but a lot of people used to took them but some used to take er when it when the periods were due they'd take about half a box, I mean instead of taking two, er two one day and two the next they'd take about half a box. +Well I think you know they could've killed themselves taking all that now, I forget forget what they were called. +They were black round like little tiny erm cashews you know, little black thing, just can't remember the name of them now. +They were very well known. +You used to buy them from the chemist. +Yes so you, was there any difficulty or embarrassment about getting these things for the pessaries and the pills from the chemist? +Well I I was never embarrassed at getting the pessaries, I used to and ask for them. +And I never found any embarrassment there because there was I always saw the wom woman, you could always see a woman chemist. +I always saw the woman and there was, she knew me and er there was no problem. +Also the er the erm these Doctor something pills er she advised me to take them because of these pains I had and er but a lot of people thought they wold work wonders you know. +That, if there's any baby there it'll get rid of it but I don't think it ever would. +I don't think it was strong enough for anything like that. +Mm. +I hear that there was a er family planning clinic in in the +Mm. +thirties erm but I don't know a lot about it. +I wondered if you ever heard of such a thing? +Well not in the thirties of course but after the War there was one because I er, ah well this, no, this was much later, much much much, because I married my second husband and erm I had two children fairly quick. +Er we were married three years, no children and I began to get desperate again and an anyway along came the first then came the second. +And that was enough, we decided that was enough. +So I went to the birth control clinic on, either Street or Street it was, I can't remember which. +Do you know which it was? +Well I know it was at Street at one time. +Yes. +Yes that'd be it. +Yes that would be it. +And it was a Doctor , er she was in charge , +That's the name, yes. +she was lovely. +She was my doctor at the time, she was she was oh she was a grand person was Doctor . +And er very kind, very gentle. +And I I went but it was so embarrassing it made me ill. +It was very very embarrassing this, what you went through you know and all this performance. +You know. +And I I er anyway it did make me ill,its it made me bleed. +Er +With internal examinations and +Yes. +things like that? +Yes, when I got home at night I I was er I had to I was sent to the hospital I was bleeding. +And erm you know it was pretty bad. +And so I wouldn't use it, I wouldn't use the so we er my husband just had to take precautions and that was it. +Yes, so they had did have a variety of different things you you could er be +Oh yes. +fitted with then ? +Yes I heard of a lot of things, the coil, er my my sister had the coil and erm and of course the cap which which it what I had. +And different creams and that kind of thing, but er oh it was you know not very nice. +I was messy and I've always said that +severe looking nurses you know and you felt a bit embarrassed. +Yes. +Was it a busy place when you went there? +Oh when I went yes, there was a lot there, quite a lot there. +This would have been what in the late forties or fifties, would this be? +Th yes well my, oh no, it was in f the early fifties actually. +Ah yes. +Yes. +My two, these two my last two girls were born in the fifties yes. +Yes in, when when the youngest one, cos I had a very bad confinement over the youngest one, and er Doctor sa said, he said, he asked, You don't want any more,my doctor that was then, not Doctor because I was I wasn't under Doctor then. +And she said, You don't want to have any more do you? +Er I said, No, and she gave me a letter to take down there you see. +Erm. +You told me that you had an abortion in the nineteen thirties. +That's right. +Can you tell me how this all came about? +Well my husband was out o on strike and I'd erm got two babies, a year and ten months, and I felt that I had to go and get a job and I was desperate so I'd heard people talking about these things as they did so I thought well I've got to do something. +And er what I did I got everything, you know the , I don't think it was , and some warm water and I saw that my hands was well clean and I'd got some very nice little silver spoons, only small ones. +And er I er penetrated, it took two or three days in the womb with this spoon, and the heard something go pop. +And of course not long after that erm I was took ill and er I er had to have the doctor and they sent me to hospital. +I can mention Mister , Doctor, he's Sir , John . +Er he attended to me and I shouldn't have done but I looked at my notes at th bottom of the bed one day and it said, Interference denied. +And of course I had denied cos nobody, I think he said, Has someone interfered with you? +Nobody had, I'd done it myself, you see and I didn't want to know and er I didn't want anybody to know you see but er, he was marvellous I know and I know there was something else tiny came away it'd only be about six or eight weeks but it was, I think anyway what was lost was found and I was in hospital for about fourteen days. +And er that's how I performed the, but I kept it to myself all these years you know and never told anybody what I'd done because I think it was terrible. +Cos I +How did you know how to go about it? +Well when you're a waitress and you mix you know with all sorts and you hear different people talking and what they did and what they didn't do you now and some had Doctor pills at that time in the nineteen thirties and some used the Indian bark. +Er what was there? +Some pink pills or something but there was all sorts you know hat they used to say put your feet in hot in water, mustard and er fall down the stairs or go on a bus, they used to tell you all sorts of things you know to, and er anyway that's what happened to me. +But thank goodness it didn't do me no permanent harm. +B +Er I did have a child for in nineteen forty eight. +I did have c a hysterectomy but er because there was a l malignant growth, so whether in you know I'd done anything all those years and yet it didn't affect, you know it makes you wonder doesn't it? +Well it makes you wonder but I should think +And ten when you lose a lovely girl you wonder still, you know why you, if that was punishment. +I didn't lose her till she was over twenty but So but I think it was desperation because if I'd had money I should've had a house full of children because I loved them, you see, I've always loved children. +So +Do you know if this was something that was happening to a lot of people, at that sort of time in nineteen thirties ? +Oh yes, yes, yes but erm on the radio prog programme I heard someone say there was every street corner these women but they weren't, I don't think there was, I think it was you know, there were a lot of women that used to do it illegal. +And er they used to get them to take these pills they said and they used to drink a bottle of gin, keep drinking gin. +Oh dear I couldn't of that . +No. +Did you think of going to anybody like that before you decided to do it yourself +No I wouldn't let anybody else touch me person. +I was a bit oh dear, no, no I would never have gone to anybody, no. +Did you tell anybody else that you were pregnant, any of your friends or anyone ? +No, no I didn't tell anybody when I you know I when I was doing me upmost, of course they knew afterwards that er because of me going in the hospital you see. +Where did you get from in those days? +Pardon? +Did you get from a chemist? +Oh yes, oh yes, you got it from the chemist. +It was what, I used today, they used it in all hospitals. +Oh yes. +Mm so it wasn't as if there was any query when you went to ask for it cos it +Oh no but you see that was for cleanliness. +You see that was to see that you know there wasn't any, yes. +And when they, I don't think there was any queries, not with er the pills or the or erm Indian bark, have I said that? +Indian bark. +Erm mustard, gin, oh the things that they you know they used to do. +And I and I as I say a lot was done because the poverty. +I mean they haven' they they don't know today really you know well I think it's wonderful. +I don't grumble about me pension, I could do with more, but I don't. +No. +What money did you have coming in at that time in fact? +Oh I don't think we di we'd hardly anything. +They wouldn't, the miners hardly got anything and there used to be soup kitchens for us and er when it first started in nineteen twenty six and er I was pregnant with my second one and I used to walk right down to Pit with a lace, great big lace basket, they wouldn't let the men fetch the coal and we had to push the coal from there right to the, oh they've no idea love, no idea. +You see there'd been the nineteen fourteen eighteen War, then there'd there was the strike, and er I started to work and I had to go to work. +And I've had to work, I worked till I was seventy. +So when you were working as a waitress was that the only money that was coming into the house then? +Yes, yes. +Because your husband was on strike at the time? +Yes, yes, yes and I wouldn't pay my rent because er ooh and I can tell you really the exact date when I er was pregnant because I know I quickened at the when it was first opened and er I was a waitress in the Room I think it was. +But it was beautiful then. +And I quickened then, of course you daren't go to work those days when once they knew you was pregnant it was a case of out. +And also er there was the Picture House then, there's not any people remember it, next to. +And er the woman there she wouldn't sign the paper because ny husband was a miner for me to get a drop of milk for him. +That's how much assistance the miners had then. +You know they didn't get the, you know, they've gone too far now. +Everything is a, was a good thing that the unions but they're going too far. +They're just taking a bit too much on. +Well that's my idea and I mean as a , then we got the other War. +So we haven't had er, we'd no chance really to save. +So when you were pregnant did your husband know you were pregnant ? +Yes er but I don't think he knew what I did, I think he thought I used to take the boiling water upstairs you see int he bedroom and er I think he just thought I was sitting on it to open the womb. +No. +He didn't er make any suggestion +No. +that he knew what you were goin was going on at all? +Oh no, no. +I wouldn't let him know that. +No. +No, he wouldn't have agreed with it you know but +You didn't talk about it at all then? +No, not what I'd actually done, cos he was very frightened when I went in the hospital. +I was ill, but he didn't know actually that I had used that method. +Yes. +Can I just ask one thing, a another thing about the time you were living in, erm did you as a woman know anything about contraception? +There was the what they tern the French letter. +But they couldn't afford them. +And it's true, I've seen my husband get water and wash it out well and er put powder and that because, and yet you shouldn't, you see they weren't safe really but they was that poor love they had to. +Mm. +I mean it's unbelievable. +So was there anything that you could do apart from leaving it to your husband? +Was there anything you could do via means of contraception, rather than just leaving it to your husband? +I didn't know anything. +I think some people they used to put a, I think some used a little sponge and put something on but I didn't. +I didn't, until that actually happened you know, I didn't believe in anything like that. +And you didn't know about anything else? +No, no, no, only the medicines and different pills and different things, you know, that these women used to do to their selves. +Oh what sort of medicines an pills were those? +Oh I think, wasn't there Pills, pink pills and ooh I forget what else. +I know they used to put bark in their inside,,, that's right. +And then I said they used to have the mustard baths. +Oh yes. +And they used to take the gin and these pills and you know. +Yes. +Gin er was that er Alderman , the old gentleman, the older alderman, you know he's been dead years now from , and erm they were very good. +They used to er send a lot of er in erm Street is it, up at the er, you know what I, that that jus , in Street was it, in Street? +Street. +Er there used ti be a place there but er, no I can never remember knowing or else I should think I should've gone. +Only I didn't, daren't mention it to the doctors you know. +You didn't +Was it not something people talked about with their doctors then? +No, no, no, no. +No. +Why was that? +Were they er a bit er frightening the doctors then or? +Well did I don't know things are so open and you know, these days. +But I still maintain to encourage them at twelve years of age to be ab oh I think it's all wrong. +Mm, mm. +Now you had three children within two and a half years. +Yes, two years and four months. +Mm. +Yes I did i well I did hear of several things to stop having them but over the first actually. +And er the pills, all different sorts of pills,, Doctor pills, er there was all kinds of pills in those days that you could take to you know, to stop you from having them you see. +This was after you became pregnant you mean? +Yes that's right, oh yes. +Mm. +Mind you if you didn't er lose it up to three months, there wasn't much chance after. +If you kept it up to three months there's cat in hell's chance you'll lose it after that. +But erm if you took these pills religiously, some of them you would probably lose it. +That all depended on how strong you was internal you see. +If you were very strong internal well you wouldn't lose it. +But er +And where did people get these pill from? +Chemist mostly, erm erm chemist and er er not health stores, there's one on Road, used to be one, not Road, one on Road now. +Er +herbalists you mean ? +That's it. +And there was one in ,, he's packed up cos they've these houses. +They +Were they sold openly? +Well yes, yes they was. +Mm. +Er only th back counter effort was er Slippery Elm, that was a back of the counter sort of thing, Slippery Elm, because it was dangerous practice. +Slippery Elm you see you had to tape it down to a fine point and then insert it you see, and if you didn't get the right place well it'd kill you. +Well everything's dangerous practice really where speaking pills and all the lot. +I still I still think they are today, and er, there was the Slippery Elm and then of course there was these backstreet effort. +Yes there was one in . +She went to prison for seven years when she was caught. +Now she used to used a crochet hook, yeah. +But the whole point was, my mother-in-law told me this, when I was very young. +You see, the the erm wait a minute the womb is like two knuckles together like that,wh when you conceive they close like two bones you see they close, and they if you want to get rid you've got to open it which is which is damned hard work and of course terrible pain attached to it. +You couldn't open it less with force, an it's great force. +Anyway then as I say they used to have these this back street effort and if you do it yourself you could do it with erm the enema syringe. +Could do it with the enema syringe in the bath. +That was another way of doing it. +And when did you first know about these kinds of methods of abortion? +Well I got to know about them when I first got married, when I was in the back street, you know in the terraces. +You get to know from there. +Then of course at I mean you, at you could all sorts of things from there. +In factories you hear a lot, in factories. +Everybody talking, everybody's giving each other the gen of what to do and where to go and what have you. +Bit I learnt quite a lot in, from the back you know, in the terraced. +They knew everything bar the kitchen sink, what to do and what not to do. +Everything was a dangerous practice though by the same rule. +You were damn lucky if you survived the ordeal. +But you can well imagine. +So if you wanted to end a pregnancy it wouldn't er be a problem finding out about it? +Oh no, no there was too many things to be had then. +Too ma mind you it's easy today with that p , I don't think that pill's reliable. +It's not, anybody with blood trouble +they couldn't take it. +No. +No they couldn't but in our days, in the younger days, to keep off it was the French letters. +That was the only thing, was it? +That was actually the only thing and then the sponges after that. +The, I tell you that place that they had in Street used to ins insert the sponges. +The clinic, we're talking about ? +Yes that's right yes. +They inserted the sponge. +That's what you went there for then. +Then of course failing that, if you didn't want that doing you'd er try the French letters and they were supposed to be er you know supposed to be intact and supposed to be the thing. +Unless they of course there were different sorts of that you know even. +And er it had been known for them to split. +Mm. +And the sponges had been known to move and not be right and even today they've when they've had this er what is it, this er operation for it they've conceived after haven't they? +Yes they have. +What was the view amongst men and women in those times, was preventing having children regarded as a as a woman's job? +Or was it something men took responsibility for? +Well, well I don't know, I think, well the men u of course we didn't use the French letters did we? +So I mean if the man was going to take it on himself I mean er he used the French letter then when that clinic started up as I would say, the women would go there you see stop that lark because they didn't even they didn't even let, er take very kindly to the French letters some of them didn't you know, the men. +But er I should say myself that er it all depended on the man really you know in a way didn't it, either one way or th other. +It all depended on the man. +And then a lot depended on the women as well hand on till death well you what do you expect to be pregnant next morning. +Don't you? +Mm. +You see that's the trouble you see every individual is different in the make up of life they are, so some'd get pregnant by oh you might as well say looking at one another and another one they might perhaps go years and not get pregnant. +In my case you get pregnant at every verse end, cos I came of a big family you see, mm. +So after you'd had your three children did you get pregnant again? +Ooh crikey aye, yeah didn't get, didn't have any did as well my word. +Wha yes I did several times but I didn't carry on with them no . +No what did you do to stop them? +Got the pills, yeah +Did they always work? +Well most of the time yes Doctor pills were very very good in those days and then of course gin and loads of Epsom Salts brought you down to last leg, no wonder I've got arthritis. +Erm it was a load of Epsom Salts and er and a lot of gin and hot baths, that brought it on sometimes. +And then again I tell you you could use the enema, and that er but er mostly it would you know you would get right again, but it took some doing, not easy. +Was there ever a time when you had to go in for more drastic measures? +Well the enema's a drastic measure. +I never went to anybody. +No. +Never. +I could never allow anybody to do anything for me, can't now. +I'm so self reliant that I if I was going o do anything it'd have to be me that would do it, for the simple reason I couldn't trust anybody else, not in that particular thing anyway. +But was this very common amongst people you were living with, were they, was it very common to to stop pregnancies like this ? +Oh yes it was. +Oh yes when we were younger, it was common. +In all these with what you know they'd have children by the galore in these er terraced houses. +All taking stuff, first one then another. +Yeah. +Then factories as well when the War was on. +That's when the War was on you see, things got worse, they were all in the family way, all them as could be in it. +Mm, believe me all trying to get rid. +Was. +I'd got two pals that tried to get rid, they did get rid eventually, yeah. +Do you know anything about erm people who did abortions in back streets? +Did I know? +Did you know any +I didn't know the person but I knew of her and I knew a friend of mine went to her, this is the one that did seven years. +Mhm. +She was in the back streets. +Yes she did seven years. +So +And you told me that she used to use a crochet hook. +Ah yeah they used crochet hook they did. +Mm. +Fine instruments weren't they, blimey. +What sort of person would she have been, I'm I'm wondering whether she would be doing this for money or was she be doing it because she really cared about people . +Oh yes, money. +Oh you had to pay her, obviously, mm, yeah, did it for money. +They all do, don't do these things for love, do they? +No. +Was it always women, +It was a woman that it was a woman that did it. +That was a woman. +Oh I didn't know of any other, only knew the one. +But she was well known, whe was well known all over . +Yes she was. +My friend went to her, she didn't get rid. +No she went and had the abortion but she had the child eventually. +Mm. +He took her back when he come from the War . +Oh dear, it makes you laugh don't it. +The family was against it but still he stuck to her. +No I bet the lass must be getting on now. +Mm. +Tried ever so hard to get rid but she couldn't, she didn't get rid of it, the other two did. +Mm. +They did yes. +But you was with it all the War, even before the War, and then when the War came, and of course you've got a fair amount when the War came on you see. +Mm. +Yes you've got knowledge all the time with living with people around you. +It was, the back streets were where a lot of this business was. +People had got no money you see having a load of kids and they keep always being in the family way, naturally trying to get rid of them you see because they didn't want them obviously. +I wouldn't say that's because of money today would you? +No. +No, no, it's not money today actually is it? +Not so bad as it was then in those days. +It was bad cos there was no money, no money about at all, nineteen twenty six strike and what have you and no there was no money at all so people didn't want their babies did they? +No. +Mm. +Erm was this something that you talked about with your husband when you found you you were pregnant, erm did you discuss it with him at all? +He didn't use to like ti, never, he was always terrified at what I wouldn't do next. +Mm. +Yes +Mm. +No he was always terrified at what I'm going to do next. +I remember him being in a pub a while back and a woman saying to him, What's your wife going to do? +He said, Madam, I never know what my wife's going to do she's so unpredictable. +I was +Would he rather you had the children then? +Well I think he would've, he was very fond of children you know. +Yes he didn't like me to make, he liked, he didn't like me to anything that was going to upset me. +At all, any drastic measures what so ever. +He'd he never liked it. +No, never. +No. +I was wondering whether it was common for women when they were found they were pregnant to talk amongst their women friends and really leave the men out of it as it were. +Oh ah we used to get together and we used to discuss each other you know what we could take and what we couldn't take. +We didn't used to talk to the men about ti obvious. +Never talked to the men about it. +doing it at the back of their, at the back. +Without them knowing, most of the time. +I can only really remember one occasion when my husband knew that I was I was taking Pills at the time, I think I took about twenty eight in one night. +pills, that's the only time he ever knew. +And he was furious. +He didn't he didn't approve of it, so you, we didn't talk to your husband about it. +No you go together with the women, same in factories, they're all talking about different things of what you're doing and what you can do. +As I say sometimes it was it was er it worked and sometimes it didn't. +If it didn't work well you just made yourself ill for nothing. +And it makes you wonder as well if it didn't revolve back onto he children you know. +Yes. +You've got to watch that you see, did it revolve back on the children. +It's up to thee months, I say after three months no good taking anything at all because you'd never lose it, not after three months. +At three months it is the weakest of the womb, that is li that is for everyone, if anybody's got a weak inside well they's lose it, they's be liable to lose it more than anybody else with out taking anything. +I tell you one that's got a strong inside, you manage up to three month but you're no good after three months. +It's a waste of time. +What about doctors in those days, did they give anybody advice about erm +Just tell you not to do it. +The doctors were very keen you know very keen, and if actually if they had to go anywhere when there was trouble you know say you'd got haemorrhage or anything like that they were supposed to report it you know. +Mhm. +Obviously did do a thing. +Yes the er the doctors were very very keen in those days they'd repo , I remember Doctor telling me about a case on . +And I was very young, somebody'd used Slippery Elm, and she'd died. +Mhm, mhm. +Yeah. +And what would happen when somebody was reported, would it then become a police case? +Well I should say yes they would, I should say there was trouble for them obviously when it was reported. +Yes I think they was had up, if they were alive t , excuse me, to tell the tale. +Ooh yes, they'd be had up. +O on the other end did did erm doctors give any advice about contraception, such contraception as there was at that time? +I can't remember him telling me much at all, not . +No I can't. +Well perhaps you might have more contact with the nurse erm the district nurse. +They didn't tell you anything. +Didn't know much theirselves, any more than these do today. +Mm. +They tell me I know more than them. +But you said you you when I asked you about the clinic on Street you thou you thought had heard of it. +I did, I felt sure er I probably went there once. +I cou I fel felt I could m when you said the name it struck me very forcibly. +I felt sure that I went there but I don't think, I don't know what happened but I don't think they were ever so successful really. +I don't think the men minded really you know, having these things inserted, it saved them a lot of trouble. +Mm. +It did but er it's a two way switch this business you know, you've got to er you've got to be together on the job haven't you really two sw two way switch. +Mm. +It's what I always think about it. + +sustainability, viability, as in a conceptual sense, and I would also like to suggest that in pushing this discussion forward we ought to bear in mind the, how shall I say it, the principles as espoused by the Department of the Environment in their planning policy guidance note three, er and in particular those spelt out in paragraph thirty three. +And those if you would, for those who have not got them available, erm, we can have them copied and obtain them for you, but I suspect all of all of you sitting round the table will have P P G with you. +. +Anyone short of a copy of P P G three, paragraph thirty three particularly? +It's the one prepared for the submission . +For those tha who are not to familiar with, the initials P P G, it stands for planning policy guidance, and there are a whole series of these guidance notes produced by the Department of the Environment for the er advice guidance of, well not only the local planning authorities but anyone else who is interested in the development business, and they are expressions of, I suppose government policy, er and their attitudes towards various aspects, whether it's countryside, housing,trans or transport, and they do pro provide a useful backcloth, in fact an extremely valuable backcloth to the way in which er this matter should be considered, erm I know from the submission which North Yorkshire County Council have used they would say that the fact they haven't had regard to all this er, but I would like to carry on the discussion against that background, and could you direct your thinking at this stage about the need for a new settlement in the light of the principles spelt out in P P G three and particularly paragraph thirty three. +Now then, can we proceed to Mr Brighton. +Sorry, Mr Donson first? +Yes, thank you. +Roy Donson, House Builders' Federation. +I think I'd like to start by making a few general points, er and then er it will be a matter for for others to to be somewhat more specific, I I I think I can say that the issue of a new settlement of a new settlement in Greater York is is a fairly unique situation, because we have agreement between the development industry and the County Council, and that's something of a rarity, but also we have mild support from the Department of the Environment, and as Mr Davis has already said, that is backed by public support. +I think it should be remembered that that public support actually was against a requirement of one thousand nine hundred dwellings, which is not quite the proposal being put forward by the County at the moment, but it is clear that there seems to me n not to be any public or great strength of public objection to the sort of proposals that are now before you in this enquiry, and it also seems to me that the reasons behind erm that that public support are essentially because it meets the first requirement of paragraph P P G thirty three, that the alternative expansion of existing towns or villages will represent a less satisfactory method of providing land for new housing that is needed, I think that is the essence of the public support, and so first of I think you can say that that's that means that first criteria, and certainly it seems to meet the second automatically because it an expression of public preference. +From the Federation's point of view, er I have substantially difficult, a difficulty, in guiding you as to where the new settlement ought to be, because in effect I would be choosing between members, and that is a certain route to my unemployment, if I were to do that, and I don't wish to be unemployed. +Therefore I am not able to suggest to you, and haven't been able to in my evidence which district even a new settlement er ought to go in, but I have to say that if it were part of your deliberations that you should choose a particular district, er then it is not part of my submission that you should not choose a particular district, but my bottom line is that the policy wording should at least ensure that there is commitment to a new settlement and it is inescapable on behalf of the district planning authorities, the last thing that we would want is the possibility of going round the districts, and the last one to produce a district wide plan is the one that has to get the new settlement, that seems to be a gen , fairly unsatisfactory way of proceeding, and each one should have to consider that as part of their certification process. +If I can then turn to er some of the issues that were w w w were were raised this morning, York and others, and other other others in their submission laid great store on P P G thirteen. +Can I remind you that it is a draft, and it is a consultation draft, it is not Government policy. +And ministerial statements have actually indicated that it's not likely to appear, as a final version, until next year at the earliest, and so it would seem to me that there's a great deal of thought to be gone into the precise wording of that P P G yet, and to rely on quotes from it wou is, is, is at best er, misleading, and I think we ought to bear in mind something that Mr Curtis mentioned this morning, that in fact the change that happened between draft P P G three and the final version, it is quite possible that the final version of P P G thirteen could be substantially different from the +Can I, can I interrupt at that stage +. +and say, do you find nothing of P P G draft revision in P P G twelve? +Yes I do find that there's a general thread,an an an and and one would expect that, what I'm what I'm guarding against is taking too much notice of precise quotes from from from P P G thirteen. +I think also we ought to be guarded about too much detailed discussion of travel distances, we are talking here at most of travel distances of between six and ten miles, in keeping with the policy, erm it seems to me that erm if we we spend too much time on trying to determine whether six or ten miles distant, is is there any great significance in terms of the global environment it would be at least an unproved case, one way or the other, but also there seems to me to be a clear conflict in those who are trying to say that the new settlement proposal falls because not large enough of a site is being proposed, one way and another. +It would seem to me that if you've got to prove a case that there that it is the place of last resort, and that place of last resort has got to be at least five thousand dwellings, you are in a place where there is absolute massive growth of demand, and improbably no one has been able to meet a five year supply of housing land, if you are to meet it in the term, if y if those are the criteria to meeting the terms of th of this sort of plan, and in fact what I would submit is that a new settlement solution is very much a part and parcel of a long term solution, and that's where essentially the County strategy is quite right in proposing a new settlement in the context of the greenbelt, because also greenbelt is a long term solution. +We've got to look at it in those terms, and so it is not necessary in my submission for anyone to prove at the moment there is at least five thousand dwellings short, erm that that is something which ought to be considered over a much longer time period. +I think that what we have to decide today, or one of the things that needs to be decided is, is the new settlement in the longer term a sensible answer given that all the all the various considerations, and that erm arguing about residual numbers, here or there has to be taken in the much longer context, I think that's what all I would like the to say at the moment on on new settlement erm because of the situation I am in of not being able to er say too much in detail about it, I shan't be making very many contributions to to this particular debate. +Can I come back Mr Donson, or will that, and I take it, alright, I understand the point you are making about the long term solution and size, but if the panel were to be persuaded that to be a viable solution the settlement had, in the end, and I'm not going to define where the end is, almost certainly beyond two thousand and six, that the settlement would need to be of the order of five thousand dwellings. +Do you consider it important that we take that into account now, not least because of the, although it's well beyond the plan in its entirety, where the new settlement might go, and its its acceptability in environmental terms, depends in part on how big it is, there may be some places which could easily take fifteen hundred dwellings, but could not take five thousand? +That seems to me to be a consideration which may be able to address in general terms by yourselves, but depends very much on the individual proposals, and and erm is is a matter of detail of the individual proposals, I'm sure that you don't want presented here the the fine detail of of individual proposals +Indeed not. +but it, but it maybe, it it would seem to me if that is a consideration of yours, that might be something that you reflect upon in y in your report, but it is it is not a necessary er requirement that, er that be part and parcel of this particular E I P. +Thank you. +Mr Brighton. +Paul Brighton, Barton Willmore Planning Partnership. +Can I say first of all that er I support the general approach which has been adopted by Yorkshire County Council and the the other local authorities in the Greater York area, on the way in which they've formulated their proposals for the York greenbelt after a fairly long erm and exhausting process, the question to which I want to address my comments first of all is whether the new settlement is an appropriate and justified planning response, and what I would like to do if I may is look at some of the reasons that have been raised erm in objection to the new settlement as a strategy, erm these issues have been raised by Hambledon District, York City Council, the C P R E, Montague Evans, in their written submissions to the examination of the . +First of all, erm, if we c could, erm, the question of need. +The first element of need is erm the various estimates of commitments of potential land, erm and the argument is, erm, that the additional requirement can actually be met within the inner area, now we covered that at some length this morning, and refer to what we've had said on that in a bit, I don't propose to repeat it. +Likewise, part of the argument also revolves around possibility that in additional land within the inner greenbelt boundary, and again you've heard our argument on that this morning, and I don't propose to to repeat that. +A new point that I would make, however, in many of those arguments which relate to the impossible, or alleged availability of additional windfall sites, and land on the inner greenbelt boundary, but I think the analysis which is er carried out is a simplistic one, because it solely relates to residential land requirements, there is no erm attempt to erm bring into the equation whether there is land available for the related employment necessary for that additional residential development, whether there is land available for schools, shops, and Mr Davis's recreation uses, and so on, and all those will very considerably increase the amount of land required to be released to support residential development, wherever it is located, and that is something which I believe has not been properly taken into account. +The second major issue which I believe had been used against the new settlement as a an appropriate Greater York area, is that it's inconsistent with erm current recent central government planning advice, and basically the argument is that the proposals for the new settlement are contrary to er planning policy guidance notes three and twelve, and draft er P P G thirteen, if I can deal with P P G thirteen first of all, and the observation of Mr Curtis that the new settlement is a last resort, erm now I could find no reference to that at all erm in P P G three, or even a sentiment that at planning policy er that a new settlement should be regarded erm as a policy of last resort. +My believe is what P P G is inviting local authorities to do is be cautious in proposing them, they should not be regarded as a first option, or an easy option, they should be cautious in proposing them. +Special circumstances are required to justify the er proposing the new settlement through the local plan structure planning process, and I believe that is exactly what has occurred over the last five years, and if I could just quickly run through paragraph thirty three of P P G three, and the your invitation for us to comment on the criteria set out there, first of all the first element, the ex the alternative must be erm seen to be a less satisfactory method of providing land for the new housing that is needed, that is the essence of what has occurred in the process which the County Council has undertaken over the last couple of years, all of the policy options available have been examined in great detail, have been subject to public consultation, public participation,d I believe clear view was that there were erm constraints operating on York which meant that not all of that additional development accommodated in the adjacent to the existing er York city villages surrounding York. +The second requirement is that it should be a clear expression of local preference afforded by the local planning authorities, my I think the fact that it has been promoted by the Greater York authorities, albeit some of them have erm taken a slightly different view of late, I think that is clear expression that the local, that the new settlement proposal does have a substantial local support. +The third element and the fourth element erm I I think relate more to location questions to do with the new settlement, and I propose to deal with those under the legal heading of two C, the next item is that the proposal can be considered alongside policies of restraint, and that is exactly how the proposal for the new settlement has emerged, it is a response to the er proposed greenbelt around York city, and obviously we can put in the greenbelt that there is severe erm policies of restraint operating at er on on the terms of new development. +Finally, the last consideration, again I believe that to be a location question which I propose to deal with under the heading two C. +So the new settlement is one element of a comprehensive approach to development employments in Greater York. +I would make the point that it has taken thirty five years for us to reach this point where we have comprehensive strategy for York, we have battled with er various greenbelt boundaries in the past, I think there has never been erm a total review development plan requirements for the Greater York area, no more of its implications on possible greenbelt boundaries, we now have that and the greenbelt local plan, Southern Ryedale local plans are being progressed on the basis of that strategy, and there are other plans in the pipeline. +And I think the special character and position of the York as one of this country's most important historic, historic towns fully justifies the exceptional step of new settlement. +The second planning policy guidance note which erm the new settlement tracked as was the policy guidance note number twelve, and I wonder if I can grapple for a moment with the S word, sustainable. +It's a word which everyone is using and it's almost like confetti. +I I'm not sure that we've had a very helpful description of what sustainable means, erm I suspect people use it in different ways and ther there is no er er common usage established of what it means here, there is no dictionary definition. +I've scoured the the technical professional press to find out if there is some general statement which sums up what sustainability means, and the one which I've seen most commonly referred to, I think, and the government has used it in this way, is a requirement to ensure the needs of the present generation are met in a way which does not prejudice future generations, now I do not believe that a properly conceived and located new settlement is any less sustainable in the long term that other forms of urban growth, and by properly conceived I've got to say I believe that to mean properly balanced er form of development for the new settlement, and I think I would say that new settlements have usually been proposed because continued infilling, like the the normal forms of accommodating further development requirements, infill, and peripheral development, have been determined in York context not to be sustainable, the sorts of issues which arise as a result erm of additional development in or on the edge of York and the surrounding villages, problems of additional congestion, loss of green space in towns, loss of employment opportunities and so on. +And finally I can just look at erm draft planning policy guidance thirteen, it is very easy to lift one or two sentences out of either the draft planning policy note, or indeed the Ecotech report which underpins it, erm, I think if a full reading is made of that, what comes across strongly in the research is that there is a very complex relationship between urban forms and transport patterns, and indeed erm I think the advice in P P G, er draft P P G thirteen is prefaced with a note that erm, transport issues are, will be erm, there are very few general principles, if any, and local er considerations will influence the er the importance of this iss issue very considerably, what I think draft P P G thirteen does invite us to do is to more overtly look the transportation implications of alternative settlement patterns, and that's all. +And at the end of the day transport matters are only one consideration which need to be taken into account in considering alternative er locations, and it may not be the most important. +And finally, if we can look at erm, I think the C P R E have raised this, that erm the new settlement i er would would be inconsistent with erm regional sub-regional planning strategy. +First of all if one looks at the draft advice on the erm regional plan guidance prepared by the Yorkshire and Humberside local planning authorities, they in fact advocate new settlement as an appropriate circumstances, there is not a policy which says that they are not appropriate or are inconsistent with other policy objectives, and I note in that respect that the D O E as Mr Donson said, are mildly supportive of the new settlement in the Greater York area. +There is some comment has been made that a new settlement to the South or the South West of York would in some way undermine the urban regeneration erm of Leeds City Council, now I find this a surprising comment given that though people who are making that comment are also at the same time advocating much increased development allocations to, for example, Harrogate district, the main centre for which is erm, nearer than most conceivable new settlement locations to the South and South West of York. +In addition I think there's some inconsistency, because within Selby district, for example, a lot of development which has been advocated in the past and is likely to be allocated in the future is in places like Selby or Sherburn in Elmet, which again are much nearer to Leeds erm than potential new settlement sites to the South and South, South West of York, and yet objection has been raised to er that particular erm element in the planning strategy for Selby, and I I can't see the reason why a new settlement should be treated in any different way to any other form of development in that sense. +Now you've also invited comments on er the question of whether one settlement is appropriate, and the size of the settlement do you want, would you like to take my comment +Well I was trying to stick with the size as an expression of whether the concept is one that should be pursued, and whether that influences the pursuing of the concept, can we can we leave the, the number of settlements till, till later on? +Right. +I think erm there is some dispute as to erm what size the new settlement must be to become what's termed an integrated and balanced community, and given the importance of this issue, and it has been with us for the last three years, ever since the new settlement was first proposed, erm I find it very surprising that North Yorkshire County Council have not undertaken any work of their own on this subject area, and have relied instead on a a residual approach to to find the new settlement size, and I must say I find that very unsatisfactory, what North Yorkshire County Council are inviting you, erm, to accept is whatever size the residual for Greater York is, you know, has been in the past I should say, proposals from the public, from the private sector have come forward,an and the County Council have used those proposals as confirmation that the new settlement of that particular size was viable, it's a sort of self fulfilling prophecy, now I think that's unacceptable, what they haven't done is the second part of the technical exercise, which is to to look at the thresholds of the various services and facilities required in the new settlement. +Now I am able to say that Barton Willmore has done this work, and it has submitted as part of our submission to the E I P, and in summary what I would say is that I believe that that work demonstrates that the new settlement has to be in the order of two thousand to two thousand five hundred dwellings, to begin to achieve the environmental objectives set for the new settlement, and also social objectives which would also be important to the residents of that new settlement. +Now North Yorkshire County Council er I think in their statement look to erm to existing market towns to provide what little evidence they can up to justify fourteen hundred dwellings, er I think that's again a simplistic approach because by definition the market now can seal them up wider catchment area, many of them are some distance from York, and the settlements concerned provide a service base for a number of surrounding villages, and therefore the actual specialities and services found within that particular settlement are greater than one would achieve if it did not have a large catchment area. +But finally, I would like to make one comment about the er the residual approach used to define the new settlement size. +I think there is a tendency erm for local authority planners to to have horizons set by the end date of the current plan period, and work, try and work in that, sort of around the real world I think, where nothing happens, or nothing is conceivable, beyond that time period, erm, this particular approach, er does not work in the case of new settlements, there is no need when having established your design size for a new settlement that it necessarily all has to be built within current plan period, and I think this sort of approach is recognized in Cambridgeshire where, in case of the A forty five new settlement, a view was taken at an early stage that a new settlement of three thousand dwellings was needed to meet long term development needs in Cambridgeshire, an area where the planning issues and problems where very similar to those of York, and the approved structure plan in policy proposed that new settlement to be designated as three thousand, of which two thousand portion would be built within the current plan period, so it seems to me that the the question of size need not be an impediment to erm designation of a new settlement if the existing requirement and need are adjudged not to require the sort of new settlement size that we are creating. +Thank you. +Thank you very much. +Mr Brighton, erm before I turn to another speaker, your comment about the location of a new settlement, and the likely effect it would have on the West Yorkshire conurbation, er I presume from what you've said is that effectively the new settlement, if you have one, its location should be such as to serve the needs of York and Greater York, and therefore the further it is away from the West Yorkshire conurbation, or the West side of North Yorkshire, the more likely it is to fulfil that function. +I think that the new settlement erm should be as close to York erm city as can be achieved, the erm question of the detailed location er I think is a matter for erm discussion on the basis of the other planning policy guidance erm criteria which I haven't explored terms of the locational criteria, what I was seeking to do in my comments was erm to counter a point which has been made er by the C P R E which refers to new settlements as an engine of growth, now that's not the purpose of this new settlement, it is a response to the needs of meeting Greater York, and I don't see any reason why that's less likely to be achieved if it's South South West of York, than anywhere else around the circumference of York. +Given that planning cannot dictate that people live near to where they work, I'm not sure I've yet grasped why it is that the need to Greater York need to be met near to York,the these needs to rise from a complex pattern of people moving in and people moving out, individual decisions as to where people live in relation to where they work, what's the magic of having the new settlement near to York? +And perhaps this is this goes to a wider point of what's the magic of the definition of Greater York area? +That not just a question to yourself Mr Brighton, others may wish to comment later. +May I answer first? +Paul Paul Brighton, Barton Willmore. +I think it is erm Greater York that has been seen as an area with special problems because of its er historic character, erm which we spent many hours debating at the York greenbelt local plan inquiry, and I think most participants there accepted that the er what was being protected was not just the historic core, but also the setting of York and its surrounding ring of villages, and the way which it is proposed to protect that setting and character is by a greenbelt, now it follows that if you are imposing extremely severe restrictions on new development in an area around a settlement, then you have to meet the legitimate development needs for that settlement in another location, the further away that new settlement or other policy response is located it seems to me the less likely it is to meet the er needs of that settlement, and that will give rise to erm, you know, additional pressures on the settlement you are proposing to protect and maybe those pressures could not be resisted, and I think that's why there is this requirement that erm the development which might otherwise be built on the edge of York, but which is not proposed to be so built because of the greenbelt needs to be located close, as close to York as is consistent with the original environmental objectives greenbelt objectives for the greenbelt. +Can I carry on throwing pebbles into the pool? +Thank you. +Planning theory about the right size for towns is not good. +Isn't there an argument which says if you're trying to protect York and its setting that the further you actually move the development away from it the greater the protection you afford it? +I think erm there is a erm a size issue that enters into that particular consideration, erm clearly erm if you build a small new settlement very close to an existing large settlement, then the prospects for that being reasonably self contained are much reduced to that of a larger new settlement in the same location, and I would agree that the further in in general the further you move away from an existing centre then the likelihood is that that settlement will become more self contained. +Can we,ca +But, sorry. +Go on. +There is an additional aspect that erm we we must look also, I think, at the viability of the services and facilities, er, within the new settlement, if the new settlement is, for the sake of argument five hundred houses then my submission is that that really offers no long term viability for any facility or service, erm, clearly you might get a primary school if the new settlement size was of the order of eight hundred to a thousand dwellings, but you would not get any sizable retail element, and so however far that settlement was located from the main centre they would still become dependant on that centre, and that's why I think it's important to recognize that if you are to achieve the erm if you like the balance of requirements, of achieving erm a reasonable degree of self containment within the new settlement, but also meet the needs of York, it has to be a reasonable size, but located as close to York as possible +Thank you Mr Brighton, I'll leave my point until later. +Mr Timothy, and then Mr Brook. +Paragraph thirty three +Can you introduce yourself Mr Timothy, please ? +Yes. +This is for the sake of record, the record. +Right, this is Chr , Christopher Timothy from Wood Frampton. +Starting off with paragraph thirty three of P P G three,, erm you'll see in my statement that I've actually in seeking to address point A dealt with each of the conditions that P P G three er refers to, for which a new settlement should be contemplated, and you will see that I've reached a conclusion that having regarded the unique circumstances of York, the Greater York new settlement does represent an appropriate and justified policy response, you'll se also see my statement, I've taken some comfort from the fact that the good practice guide that has been published by the department of the environment, has endorsed the approach that North Yorkshire County Council has taken towards the special circumstances of the Greater York area. +I don't know if this means that the North Yorkshire structure plan now has the equivalent of an Egon Ronay recommendation. +The the particular point that that I wish to pick up on though was from M Mr Curtis and his reference to erm the draft P P G thirteen, and whilst I'd say that the point of the H B F that it's only a draft publication at this stage, there's in my view been too mu much over reliance on the reference in there to self containment, you see if we look at that particular paragraph, two point one two, it actually says avoid the development of small new settlements which are not to, sorry, I'll start that again, avoid the development of small new settlements which are not be likely to be well served by public transport, or which will not be largely self contained. +It's not an and situation, it's an ei it's an either or situation. +So by implication if you c if the new settlement is capable of being well served by public transports, then that is se a a satisfactory situation. +I take in my opinion the size, scale of settlement that is being pursued by erm North Yorkshire is of sufficient size, erm my experience erm are twelve fifty to fifteen hundred new settlement is sort of of a size that can sustain a reasonable balance of community facilities, I think in looking at the new village and in the context of P P G thirteen its highway implications, we see from table one of er Mr Curtis's supplementary statement that public transport, I E bus and train, in terms of journeys to work to the Greater York area amounts to about eight percent of all journeys made, now I think if we were to follow Mr Curtis's view through and put all development on the periphery of York, if we put two hundred to the North, two hundred to the East, two hundred to the South and so on and so forth, the contribution that those, that new housing can make to improving the public transport system, will be very small, if you concentrate your developments in a new settlement, or or maybe two new settlements which is another point, erm you have a better opportunity to provide a public transport system which would not only serve that new village, but also settlements in the surroundings, and I think you will find that the percentage of people in the new village who are reliant on public transport as a means of getting to work is greater that what you find in the Greater York area at the present time. +Aha. +Any other comment? +The only other comment I had in terms of the scale of settlement, which I think is just touching upon the next point, is that, I mean depending on the conclusions you reach as to the the amount of housing to be provided for in a new settlement, I take the point that Mr Brighton made that you've got to have a longer term perspective I think that he f that in the ten year period ninety six to two thousand and six that the new settlements to be brought forward during, erm I think it's really unrealistic to achieve more than twelve fifty, fourteen hundred houses in that period, if you say reach a conclusion there should be two thousand houses in that period in a new settlement, there might be some benefit in having two settlements, each of a capacity of say twelve fifty,f for erm twelve fifty to fifteen hundred that can have capacity for the next plan period, and in other words to assist in meeting the constraints that exist on York that are likely to exist into the future. +Mhm. +Thank you. +Mr Brook, and then Mr Sexton. +Thank you sir. +Clive Brook, Clive Brook associates. +I think it would be appropriate to very briefly sir preface erm not by name obviously, who I represent, the interests I represent, because otherwise my comments may be misconstrued erm by certain parties who know me well, I represent certain peripheral land owner and developer interests around York, I also represent a developer who is proposing a n new village circa fifteen hundred dwellings in the Leeds metropolitan district er to the East of Wetherby, that is relevant when I come to the location and a migration aspects, er I would preface the rest of my comments by saying I consider it is vitally important, sir, that this enquiry takes a sub-regional view, this is why my colleague from Leeds City Council I'm sure's been invited, it's why the Department of the Environment Regional Office are here, very important indeed. +In terms of Greater York and its th the York greenbelt I think it's true to say that er some time ago when David Kaiserman of Manchester did research on greenbelts he came to the view, or he came up with the conclusions from his questionnaires that he sent round, and that study was done, must be ten, fifteen years ago or more, that greenbelts should endure unchanged for at least twenty years, and probably in excess of thirty, and those were the responses of county planning and other major planning authorities at that time, that view if anything has hardened, the public view would be way beyond thirty years. +For a city the nature of York it is vital, in my view, that public confidence in the greenbelt it's got to endure for beyond thirty years, that is the case I would share the views to some extent of the York City in that, and which I I certainly read into ma'am, your, two of your questions, what happens beyond two thousand and six? +The responses I heard to that question were most unsatisfactory, the County Council's response was, ah, well we'll have to get together again with the group of authorities, now if you look back over how long it has taken to produce this particular strategy that's exceedingly worrying, that means they'll have to get together again, even if it takes half the time or a third of the time, they'll have to get together again towards nineteen ninety seven ninety eight to be considering the strategy post two thousand and six. +I put it to you that this proposal has to be considered, any new settlement proposal has to be considered within the light of a post two thousand and six strategy, in that light this new settlement proposal will not, at around fourteen hundred, satisfy the situation. +If you then say, ah well it might expand to double that number or to five thousand, as was postulated, that then begs an even larger question, because in my submission you would then go back and revisit the alternatives of, for example, should you expand Tadcaster, which has not the best facilities in its town centre, er to quote but one example of er viability and sustainability of towns. +You would look at Tadcaster versus a settlement of four five thousand in the Greater York area. +It is a so it's a complex set of interrelationships we're looking at er on a sub-regional basis, I do believe that there is capacity, some capacity around the inner area of York, and to what extent the greenbelt enquiry er inspector will retain what I and others and certainly York City Council would believe is sufficient capacity remains to be seen, and though similar pleas were made at that enquiry I think they have to be restated here. +So my answer to the question A is, I am not against a new settlement, of the right scale in the right location, but it is not a panacea, it is not an answer to all the questions, now it's being offered in terms of a balanced strategy, I say that balanced strategy as put forward does not work, certainly beyond two thousand and six, and may grind to a halt well before two thousand and six if rates of development proceed er as they have done in certain years in the past, so it's very important to look at that, can we just revisit the public acceptance of the new settlement, of course the public have accepted it and welcomed it, it has certain attractions, I support those attractions, however it's easy for the public to accept that when measured against certain sites specific proposals that were put to them when they did not know where the new settlement would be, and still do not know, when new settlement locations are put forward it will be quite a different scenario. +The question of er P P G thirteen and transportation I think is vitally important, York will come into the position that Chester er where I was just at a transportation enquiry recently, it's a very similar sort of city, it's not quite the same as Cambridge, where Cambridge is leaping ahead on quite, some would say draconian transportation measures, York in the forceable future will have to look at specialist transportation measures, that's important in terms of the planning policy guidance that is out, it's also in the white paper, it may be in draft P P G thirteen, it's also in I think it's P P G twenty two, renewable energy, that we should now be looking at developments which is closer to work, that links then to the question of sustainability and viability of a new settlement, I am not aware, and and I put it guardedly in those terms, of any significant employment existing or proposed in any of the new settlement proposals. +I believe it is very important to judge a new settlement in terms of viability and sustainability on the availability of some significant element of jobs, of course it will never be self contained, erm but that is a very important factor, I don't see that in the list of criteria. +So I'm not opposed to a new settlement, but let's have a very sensible approach to the question of sustainability and viability, journeys to work, er okay six to ten miles is not too much, but we can do better than that. +I think I'll reserve my other comments, sir, when we get on to some of the later points. +Thank you very much. +Mr Sexton. +Tony Sexton, Connell. +Er my start point is P P G twelve, which in er paragraph six point four sets out the reconciliation of the er development, er economic, social, and environmental er priorities in preceding two strategies for a structure plan. +These development strategies should seek to preserve an acceptable balance of the various priorities, now in my position statement I set out the role and general advantages of new settlements as part of a development strategy in satisfying housing and employment needs of an area. +In particular I think that the new settlement strategy proposed in the structure plan is of particular relevance er to the needs of Greater York, focused as it is on the historic city. +Given the lack of a capacity within the city and in the settlements surrounding to absorb significant elements of major development it seems to me that it is inevitable that green fields er will have to be taken to satisfy the future development needs. +The choice therefore arises between peripheral development of the urban area and the villages surrounding or alternatively the new settlement itself, the effect of peripheral development on the city has already been discussed, and I support those who consider that it would be harmful to the character and indeed to the setting of York. +Equally to, I consider that significant peripheral development of the villages would be harmful to their character as well. +It therefore follows that in my view, that it is consonant with the requirements of P P G three, particularly paragraph thirty three, that a new settlement should be part of the housing and employment strategy of the Greater York area, that it does not conflict, in my view, with the consultation draft of P P G thirteen which really embodies much of what has already been said in P P G three and twelve with regard to travel issues. +Dealing with one or two specific points that have been raised, particularly with regard to size, in my view the balanced community which can be envisaged within a new settlement will provide for housing, employment, community services, and recreational opportunities, it will not simply be a peripheral housing estate transferred to the open countryside, in my submission I have already stated that I do believe a new settlement of up to fourteen hundred dwellings should indeed be viable, and commercially attractive to the development industry. +I think a settlement of this size would be compatible with the general pattern of village development that exists in the York area, if a new settlement were significantly larger than this pattern I think there would be a high degree of risk of coalescence with the existing er communities, and would certainly threaten their identity. +The other point I would make is the further that the new settlement is from York itself, then the greater would be the dependency upon the motor car, this has been born out by the paper that has been submitted by York City Council in table one where one can see that within the urban area within the O R R the travel to work by car is forty six point four percent, travel to work in the Greater York area at the moment is sixty seven point five percent, further than that I do believe it would be even greater. +As there is indeed a need to reduce car dependency it therefore follows that the nearer to York that the new settlement is then the greater the benefits could result, equally to, the further that the new settlement is from York then I think the less it will have an effect in reducing the pressures for development upon York. +I think those pressures will still be there and that another solution will have to be found, albeit in the middle term to reduce the further demands, continuing demands for peripheral expansion of the city. +Thank you, Sir. +Thank you. +Mr Jewitt. +Sorry. +Sorry. +Sorry. +A couple of questions if I may please Mr Sexton. +First of all you started off with a reference to P P G twelve, and I fear my pen wasn't fast enough to note down the paragraph number, perhaps you could remind me? +Er, certainly, Senior Inspector, erm paragraphs six point four, and continuing into six point five. +Thank you. +Second point, erm, you argue that a settlement of more than, say, fifteen hundred dwellings would increase the risk of coalescence with existing settlements, but surely that depends on where it is, doesn't it? +Yes, I readily accept that, er my general proposition is in er connection with the settlement pattern of York, and it is necessary clearly to have er careful regard to that existing settlement pattern, erm if I may refer to the helpful plan that has in fact been produced, I believe by the County Council, it is in fact an appendix to B two zero zero four, er this plan does actually indicate the general extent of the settlements outside the outer ring road of York. +Clearly the settlement pattern at the moment does vary, many of the settlements are linear in form, many others are nucleate. +But they are fairly thickly spread, fairly closely to each other, it is my view that, quite frankly, the existing settlements should be protected to the extent of no new settlement being within w one mile of the vi existing village centre. +If one took that as a parameter, and applied that to the existing settlement pattern, there is indeed a high degree of risk of coalescence if in fact a new settlement were of a significant significantly larger than fourteen hundred dwellings. +I understand, thank you. +Michael Jewitt. +Michael Jewitt, Hambledon District Council. +I think at the outset I need to erm clarify Hambledon's position, erm Hambledon's position is that it objects erm to the new settlement on the basis that it's not needed and cannot be justified, and I wouldn't wish erm for the er Council's position to be interpreted as anything less than that. +Turning to erm the reasons erm for the Council's erm objection with particular reference to er paragraph erm thirty three of P P G three, erm I think it's first of all, and it should be abundantly obvious to all present now that since the County Council emba and the Greater York authorities, embarked upon this strategy government guidance has changed, we believe erm government guidance now casts serious doubts erm on the erm new settlement strategy for Greater York. +It's certainly true that government guidance is far more guarded erm in its support for new settlements erm the guidance has has of course been touched on but I would adem emphasize the dates of this guidance, er P P G three, housing, March nineteen ninety two, P P G twelve, development plans and regional planning guidance, February nineteen ninety two, and draft P P G thirteen, May nineteen ninety three, just looking briefly at P P G three, erm P P G, and I think it's fair to say that P P G three takes up far less welcoming stance than did the previous erm P P G erm it recognizes that new settlements are controversial, and that the scope is likely to be limited. +Hambledon District Council believes that insufficient regard has been payed erm to to these issues erm in the structure plan alteration, in paragraph thirty three the P P G sets down a list of criteria erm to which local authorities er should refer erm, I'll erm refer specifically to er to three of them and I and and comeback to them as I go through erm erm what I want to say, erm the first one I draw that I would draw the panel's attention to is erm that the alternative of the expansion of existing towns or villages should represent a less satisfactory method at providing the land for housing that is needed, and it's a rhetorical question really here, erm and w we would ask that erm if there hasn't been a comparative appraisal erm of the two options, and how could there be, there's no erm district or areas been identified, how can we be certain that one option is better than another under the terms of that er criterion, erm the oth second point we would draw the panel's attention is that the proposal is a clear expression of local preference supported by the local planning authorities, and again I would emphasize there that Hambledon District Council objects, and the third one is the option of a new settlement in preference to the alternative would result in positive environmental improvements, and I'll return to that erm briefly in relation to er to Hambledon, P P G twelve erm paragraph six one four that's been referred to it, includes a check list of issues against which areas in for new development in general er need to be er considered, with particular reference for reducing the need for travel, erm amongst these issues that the P P G asked the Councils to take into account erm are that development should make full and effective use of land within existing urban areas, that developments er should consider development patterns that are closely related to public transport net networks, and in relation to housing, and that housing is located in such a way as to minimize car use for journeys to work, school, and other local facilities, P P G thirteen, and I would expect erm I would agree with what Mr Donson has said here, is that it it's draft and obviously one has to put the appropriate weight on it, but erm this reinforces and expands upon erm established government policy, reducing the need for travel, erm I don't think it's necessary for me to go into er the quotes in detail, I think that those have been er been touched on, erm, however, I would say erm that Hambledon District Council believes that the advice in draft P P G thirteen is much less supportive of new settlements, it suggests that greater weight must be given to the environmental implications of the additional traffic generated by new settlements erm this is, erm we believe, particularly important in view of the fact that a new settlement for York is unlikely to be self contained, and by its nature many of the residents will still look to York for essential services, social links, and employment, turning to the residual requirement, erm we have a concern over this, erm clearly a new settlement is intended to mop up any residual requirement which the er policy sets at fourteen hundred dwellings, we've heard evidence from York today that er the city can accommodate erm more erm houses than was originally envisaged, which brings the residual requirement to erm about the minimum size specified by the County Council as being erm about the right level erm to make a s a new settlement self supporting, however, we would point out that there is still the possibility of erm further peripheral development around York, the greenbelt local plan and Southern Ryedale local plan er have not yet been statutory adopted, the inspector hasn't reported on those, we don't know what he's going to say about sites er which were at issue, or on the need for flexibility between the inner erm boundary of the greenbelt and the city, irrespective of course of what the inspector says, erm being not yet statutory adopted the County and Ryedale will still have the opportunity to consider, reconsider there policies there, but putting that aside for the present, erm even if it is established that er the requirement for nine thousand seven hundred houses erm can't a occupied by er can be accommodated by er peripheral development, erm this doesn't it doesn't necessarily follow that the answer has to be a new settlement, we heard yesterday in erm great detail that erm environmental considerations have justified a reduction in the rate of development in other districts, erm in the county, I would point out that a relatively modest reduction erm in the inward migration to Ryedale, Selby, and York, could mop up the residual requirement, if one looks at erm the reasons for the greenbelt it is perhaps surprising that given the importance attached to maintaining its historic form and character that this is not an issue erm that's been considered. +Looking specifically at our concerns with regard to erm Hambledon, erm in Hambledon the area search would erm extend to about eighty two kilometres, that's square kilometres, erm and contain six, this contains six villages, er with populations ranging from a hundred and fourteen to nine hundred and seventy one, erm proposed new settlement of fourteen hundred hou erm dwellings, er would be four times erm greater than the largest settlement in this area, Easingwold is the nearest small town, that's about the equivalent erm equivalent size in terms of number of dwellings, erm we believe that it would er dominate the existing settlement pattern in the area, and would introduce erm a dislocation erm into er a settlement pattern. +And we think that it would be an excessive size er for that particular locality, and it wouldn't really fit in erm with er the path of the settlement pattern. +We also have concerns about how it could erm fit in to er the countryside erm of the area er with particular reference to erm paragraph thirty three of P P G three which states that erm the net effect of any new settlement will be to enhance the environmental cause only modest environmental impact, the area in Hambledon, as Mr Wincup outlined yesterday erm is occupied essentially by the vale of York, it's an essentially flat and rolling landscape, er the intensification of agriculture's produced a very open landscape erm in that area erm there are few erm landscape elements to reduce into visibility, erm there are no significant areas of derelict land which could be, which would be reclaimed or enhanced erm by a new settlement, erm and the Council believes that it would be very difficult to assimilate a new settlement into this landscape, and it would be er visible over extensive areas, to touch on erm the point raised by erm the panel about self sufficiency and self containment erm I think it's recognized in the explanatory memorandum, erm to policy H two that a new settlement will need to maintain social and economic links with a city, erm perhaps from some, this statement is explicit that erm York will continue to exert considerable influence in terms of employment, social, and community links, erm and it's unlikely that facilities which have provided a new settlement will divert much, if an , if er any, erm of this er demand for travel. +We think that the er residents of a new settlement will still look to York as the natural centre for employment, for er provision of most employment, retailing and entertainment, and if you compare it with something like er Easingwold, erm which is of a similar size, erm this has achieved a degree a degree of self containment and balance, but this has occurred through erm a long period of development and a gradual growth of erm social linkages and economic linkages, however, even with such erm a gradual growth erm it's not got a high degree of self containment, erm recent developments in er transport and changes in lifestyle have reduced this even further, and it's difficult to believe that er a proposal, such as a new settlement er which is explicitly intended to cater for the development needs of York, located only ten miles from York can achieve the same level of self containment. +That's all I have to say. +Thank you. +Er y your use of the phrase self containment leads me to ask the question, which is that, well in my book it doesn't necessarily mean the same thing as an integrated and balanced community, but I'll put Mr Davis on notice to define what is meant by those adjectives. +Er, Mr Girt, can we have erm a Leeds view? +Yes, I'd like to come back er to Mr Brighton on the question of regeneration in West Yorkshire, and er settlement South West of York, some people here today would not have heard the views of Leeds and Bradford on the H one discussions yet, about er why we are objecting to the restraints in three North Yorkshire districts, Harrogate, Craven, and er to less extent perhaps, Hambledon, on migration levels, erm we we argued there +Sorry. +we argued there that erm scale of migration was not necessary to to be contained within Leeds and Bradford, to promote regeneration because we're s we're now, we have now exhausted all our brown field sites to the extent that we've had to take land out of our greenbelt, but there we were looking at something in the order of four thousand dwellings in three dris districts, spread over fifteen years, and we might reasonably assume that they'd come forward in a dispersed manner on a site by site basis er and be relatively small scale, certainly we would be looking at the local plans which flow from this alteration to make sure that will be the case, now a new settlement's a completely different animal, you would have to come forward quickly otherwise it would not be regarded as a success, it would it would need wide publicity, perhaps across the whole region, maybe even beyond, it would be a a major attraction to anybody thinking of moving house er from Leeds to a a location which would be accessible to them to retain their employment in Leeds, so I think we were talking about two different things entirely, more than that Mr Brighton's su suggested that fifteen hundred would not be an adequate scale, it would have to be, I think two thousand five hundred was his figure, er Mr Timothy's suggested th the same sort of thinking, and Mr Brook to, that the the settlement would have to get bigger, erm which only compounds our problem, any any settlement which grew larger and larger and inevitably would contain more employment as well as housing would become more of a threat to the regeneration of Leeds and, perhaps to a lesser extent Bradford, and it's on +Thank you. +I'm conscious of the time, and we may like to have a break for tea, but there are also three people who wish to contribute to the discussion. +Would you like to have a break for tea now? +I mean, I I ask that in the the sense that ha are your contributions going to fairly lengthy? +And mine. +Right, can we take Mr Cunnane and then Mr Thomas, and we'll do you after tea. +Joe Cunnane, er there are five points which I want to make. +First one, er relates to the point made by the Barton Willmore representative, that no account has been taken of additional land that would be needed er for the settlement, for shops, er community facilities, and other infrastructure, er and of course that land is not available, well in fact the opposite is the case if the new settlement is not provided, because the infrastructure is available within York city, and the York city document er A eight double O nine, paragraph six, makes it very clear that the city is capable of accommodating the needs within its city boundaries where that fr infrastructure is available, er to that extent there is a further argument against the settlement, and that is that the settlement would be duplicating the provision of resources outside of the city, where those resources can actually accommodate it within the city. +Second point is that Barton Willmore say again a settlement of two and a half thousand is needed in order to be viable, well a settlement of two and a half thousand cannot possibly be justified under the statistics that we have heard to date, and it is ni it is noteworthy that Barton Willmore representative did not actually promote a need argument, therefore the settlement at two and a half thousand is n well the settlement at two and a half thousand is not necessary, and anything less than that is unsustainable, so therefore in my in my view that is a a further reason why it should not be contemplated as a solution. +My third point is coming back to Chairman your point about the paragraph, the criterion paragraph of thirty three of P P G three, and the settlement in my view fails the first the first test, since the very city which it is supposed to relieve says that the need can be met, and I quote, within and on the edge of the urban area and villages. +My fourth point is that again dealing with paragraph thirty three, it fails the second test where it should be a clear, and I would like to underline clear, expression of local preference supported by the local planning authorities, now Mr Jewitt has already made the point so I'll be very se very brief about this, but I my clients, Simon Smith's brewery in Tadcaster, two off fifty seven +Thank you. +Mr Thomas. +Yes, Richard Thomas, Montague Evans. +Er most of my points have actually dried up now, sir, in view of what Mr Cunnane has said, and also Mr Jewitt, erm I do actually, I would try to emphasize a point that the people who are proposing new settlements in this location have judiciously avoided the question of need this afternoon, well I think we we almost came to the point this morning that the shortfall was nine hundred and reducing almost on a month by month basis, er one or two quick points I would like to pick up, er in view of the erm small nature or the shortfall in housing supply that we see over the next fifteen years, I cannot accept that to avoid the new settlement option would be prejudicial to greenbelt objectives, erm the housing land supply allocations are almost there, there are plans to run through which will un almost inevitably allocate additional sites inside the inner edge of the greenbelt boundary and outside the outer edge of the greenbelt boundary, but both within Greater York, which are bound to assist in making up the shortfall of provision, and probably, if I suspect rightly, would actually exceed it, erm erm I agree with Mr Cunnane on the question of the alternative expansion of existing towns or settlements, the same point really, we're almost there anyway, the op that option is already there, it's not that it might be there, it is it is there at the moment, er it's not a clear expression of local preference, and I would also point out the option of the environmental improvements under the P P G criteria you asked us to look at, erm whether it's a thousand houses, two thousand, two and a half thousand, whether it has a bowling alley, or a ten pin bowling alley, and a B and Q, and a, probably a Tesco as well, this form of development will not sit comfortably in open countryside, almost, wherever it's put within the Greater York area, I defy anyone to produce a site where one can satisfactorily put er such a massive form of urban development and suggest it's a positive environmental improvement. +Another point which hasn't been taken up, despite us being invited to is why is the Greater York area the size that it is, and this is a point that the Senior Inspector raised, er in other towns and cities, I'm thinking particularly of Exeter for example, the districts have looked at supplying their city based land supply problems on a journey to work area, now that area would be significantly greater than we're looking at here, and it seems to me in this location er where we see a potential abundance of supply beyond the strict confines of the Greater York area is a very apposite question to ask, why is the Greater York area the area that it is? +Why are we relying so heavily on this arbitrary boundary? +Because the result of what we're trying to achieve, particularly if one goes for the new settle settlement option, is to squeeze, as we said this morning, a gallon into a pint pot, and it it would be interesting to hear from the County why the Greater York boundary is what it is. +Thank you. +Thank you very much. +Well, Mr Davis can mull over that while he's having his cup of tea, and then we'll come straight to Mr Sedgewick and Mr Donson after tea. +Can we reconvene at twenty to four, please? +Yes, could I erm, I just want to take up some points raised by the panel. +Erm, indeed the first one was why should, why should the new settlement be located close to Greater York, I think the main main ans the answer to that is of course that York is the main centre in population, and employment in the county, by far. +It's it's also the main area of housing demand, it's also the main area where employers want to locate around around North Yorkshire, and I think most importantly, if its development needs are not met, these can won't be satisfactorily diverted elsewhere, they will continue unresolved which would be continual pressure on the edge of the urban area, and on on the greenbelt, and if that holds the effect would of course be that the tight greenbelt would mean that economic growth in the county would be frustrated, because York is the main centre where employment growth is concentrated, and I would think, I would consider that that solution of a tight greenbelt plus not making sufficient provision for development needs elsewhere in York would be contrary to P P G three paragraph three, which I'm sure you're aware of. +Well if I could just read read that, a well planned strategy for hou for land, for hous , sorry a well planned strategy for land for housing which ensures that housing is available in the areas where jobs are being being created can make a valuable contri contribution to national prosperity and economic growth, so I say I don't think we would have that erm valuable contribution if the new settlement were located away from Greater York. +Now in terms of the cr the need for development, I'm sure the panel will have read all the evidence which has been put in about the long history of the varying impact studies o on development on around Greater York, and those date back of course to the February eighty nine report which I I think you'll have seen copies of. +Now my my conclusion from that, and I think is a conclusion which has been supported by the public on con during the consultation exercise on the Greater York study, was that peripheral development around Greater York would have an undue impact on the historic character of the city, and that of course is the fundamental, the protection of which is of course a fundamental aim of planning around Greater York. +And I think that the alternative of the new settlement is by far the best solution, provided it is mixed with some peripheral development, one can't go into a position where there is all peripheral development or all new settlement, it has to be in perfect balance, because some needs cannot of course be met by the new settlement. +In terms of closeness to York, I take the general review view and I support the County Council that it is generally better if the new settlement is located closer, close to York, because that under proviso that it is well located for public and private transport. +If further away the new settlement would be from York, the less likely it would be to meet the needs of Greater York, more likely to meet the needs of other areas, such as Leeds. +I think the worst of all locations would be a, would be one where the new settlement would be catering for the needs of Leeds, if it were were located along the A sixty four corridor, South South South of York. +In terms of sustainability, we we have done underdone undertaken the same exercise which Barton Willmore have done, and looked at all the various sources, I mean from there you should be including those published by the rural development corporation, commission I should say. +We come to the different conclusion, and we we think that a settlement between, from those sources, that a new settlement between fifteen hundred to two thousand could support a reasonable range of services, and we when we look at Barton Willmore's evidence we don't see the support for their conclusion, if one reads each individual service, one fi comes to the view that a new settlement between fifteen hundred two thousand would support a reasonable range of services. +Now in terms of whether it should be five thousand plus, that of course is a matter of whether there is demand, now my my conclusion, from my fairly extensive knowledge of Greater York, is that you just could not fit a new settlement that size satisfactorily into the settlement and landscape pattern of Greater York, or its immediate surrounds, I just cannot identify a location where that could be where where the roads, the public transport, the landscape, or indeed the agricultural land quality, from now onto five an area, suitably large for that type of what would be a a new town. +And could I just say that I think that the issue of sustainability does also touch upon the need for the new settlement to be be located on a public transport corridor, preferably an existing public transport corridor, and I think again that argument for for s for somewhere where a rail link, preferably, could be provided, and that of course would tend to support all those factors tend to support a location on the Northern side of York rather than the Southern side of York. +That's it. +Can I pursue one point you've made, Mr Courcier, you say there is nowhere in the York area where a settlement of say, five thousand +Five thousand dwellings. +dwellings could be accommodated, given that the world is not going to stop in two thousand and six. +And an assumption, and it is only an assumption at this stage, that York has a tight greenbelt, by that time statutory. +Isn't it a bit short sighted to th to plan to come up against what if you're right would be a brick wall. +It won't be us at the next E I P, but aren't you inventing the same problem +Well I +for the next panel? +I think there are two points there, firstly I think that the York greenbelt should not be drawn overly tightly, it should allow for some provision for peripheral post two thousand and six, because there will be inevitably demands arising in that period, which cannot be met in the new settlement, and I disagree with the County Council on their approach on that matter. +would would also be wise for any new settlement which you chief specify, that any new settlement you may recommend should also include some provision for expansion land, and my point I think is that you could not divide a settlement as big as five thousand, I think it would be reasonable to say a new settlement make with a an eventual capacity of say three and a half thousand, that might be appropriate around Greater York. +You couldn't +find that could you? +I think one could find something of that order. +I think five thousand is just too large and if if there were a need post two thousand and six for a larger, for a for further development, and Tadcaster, two of the 7 +So are you saying then effectively that looking towards the post two thousand and six scenario, and bearing in mind that that review will not be let, will, is likely to take place at the most within the next five years? +Yes. +Erm, then it may well be for the benefit of Greater York that you might be looking at more than one settlement? +Well certainly I don't think at this point there is a need for more than one settlement. +No. +Mm, there may be a need post two thousand and six for a further settlement, we won't know until we see, we don't know the strategic policy context in which that decision will be taken, nor nor of course exactly what sort of demographic requirements may be arising in that period. +Mhm. +Most certainly at this point I don't see any need for a second new settlement. +No. +Thank you. +Mr Brighton. +I just wanted er, Paul Brighton, Barton Willmore Planning Partnership. +I just wanted to erm pick up on a couple of points that er people have made in the course of a and responses I think to my er opening statement. +I'm sorry, people can't hear you at the back. +I'm sorry, I just wanted to make a couple of points in response to erm things that people have said in relation to my opening statement, erm Mr Brook er mentioned the fact that er none of the employe none of the new settlement proposals of which he was aware, erm included an employment element, erm I just wanted to to place on record the fact that our suggested reworking of policy H two does provide for an explicit land er amount of land for employment purposes, erm as part of the new settlement location, I wanted to say that because I, I'm not invited to appear on your employment day, and I do feel that this is an important component of the the H two strategy, and clearly that employment component will be drawn from the Greater York allocation, the second point, Mr Sexton erm I believe said that in his view you could not find a site for a larger new settlement er within the or outside the Greater York er greenbelt, erm which would not result in physical coalescence with the existing villages in the area, now I'm not sure whether he was referring to any particular size of larger new settlement, but I invite you to look at the er land range at one to fifty thousand er map of the area, and you will see that the area outside the greenbelt is characterized by erm a very rural area with sporadic villages, and my believe is that there are erm sites available within that area which could accommodate a larger new settlement, the planning point is of course the larger the new settlement becomes, I think the less that that the reduced number of sites you will have available to accommodate erm that proposal, because of its scale, and the third aspect I want to comment on Mr Cunnane and Mr Thomas erm said that Barton Willmore had not made a need argument for the new settlement, well if I'm not mistaken that's what we spent most of this morning discussing under policy H one, and I don't erm I don't wish, and I don't suppose that I'd be invited to repeat the comments made by Mr Grigson this morning, I don't think there's any need for that, but that establishes in our mind very clearly there is a need for a new settlement in the range of two thousand to two thousand five hundred dwellings, erm in the period up to two thousand and six, and I won't say anything more on that. +Thank you. +Yes, I mean I I took your need figure to be on the basis of the suggested figure of twelve thousand seven hundred for the Greater York area. +Thank you, correct. +Mr Whip. +I'm not, I don't think you're a resident of one of these sporadic villages, but can we have, Flexton is it? +Flaxton. +No, Flaxton Parish Council, George Whip. +The views of Flaxton Parish Council are supported by Flaxton Village Trust. +Most of my comment will be related to the methodology of selection of the site of any new settlement, and not to the question of need which we're now addressing ourselves to. +But I don't think reference has been made to a document that is referred to in P P G one, namely the doc the white paper, This Common Inheritance, er D O E document, and in that there's a clear indication that this question of a new settlement erm should be considered, paragraph six point four eight reads, however well urban land is used, there will continue to be a need for building on greenfield sites, it is important that new housing on such sites is carefully placed to preserve the open countryside, and respects the quality of the landscape. +Here again there are local choices to be made, one option is the creation of new villages or larger settlements which could offer opportunities for high quality design, and also relieve pressures on existing towns and villages. +The government believes that this is an option which should be considered by planning authorities and local communities in the preparation of their plans. +In my opinion that supports the line taken in the revised version of P P G three which I don't think dims the enthusiasm of central government for a new settlement consideration as compared with its predecessor, P P G three. +The view of Flaxton is that the greenbelt should be kept tight round the urban area of York city, and it is because of that view that we think whether there is a need for a new settlement depends basically on the numbers game into which we cannot go. +Mhm. +Could we have a copy of that er quote from Common Inheritance? +If you'd arrange with the er erm secretary later. +Thank you. +Er, Mr Wincup. +Ken Wincup, D O E. +I'm sure sir you're you're not expecting me to make a a major contribution to this particular debate, but I felt that your the, various comments have been made around the table which would make it exactly clear where the Department stands on this issue. +As we say in our our paper, we use the phrase wildly supportive of the concept. +those words were carefully chosen as as I'm sure sure you'd expect them to be. +Our involvements st with this project started way back in nineteen eighty nine, went into a series of meetings which most recent I attended at the Greater York authorities, we learnt the full scale and extent of the housing land problems in the Greater York area, we of course have no part in the decisions which have been made by the Greater York authorities, nor in the plans they subsequently made for the York greenbelt, but clearly we remain closely interested in the outcome. +We heard what Mr er Davis had to say this morning, and at at one point was very very important, we are expecting to be in possession of reports on the greenbelt local enquiry and your report er round about the same time, and indeed since they they are in control of proceedings thereafter they are in a position to make sure that they don't have to reach decisions on one until they are in possession of the other. +In relation to the concept of a new settlement the Department very firmly has an open mind at a time, we've heard many statements drawing on the various P P G s, and from some of them you might have been excused for thinking that the Department had indeed turned it turned its back on the idea of a n new settlements, knowing that sort of situation we felt it appropriate before the start of this examination to sound out the residents of two Marscham Street +which we did, and I'm pleased to say that they endorsed that that general position, in other words their not going to come to a conclusion whether or not they should take any part in the proceedings, whether they should intervene or seek to stop the project until much later in the day. +We see we see this forum as very much the right sort of forum for either making or breaking the case for a new settlement, the one thing I do have to say, however, is that the Department wants to see this particular issue settled in the context of the alteration, and full significance of that isn't immediately apparent, it, what we don't want to see is what was envisaged in the H B F statement, where they thought that we might end up with a decision to have a new settlement in principle and then leave it open to the local plans, all four of them around the city, to then explore the possible alternative locations. +That's not how we see it, sir, we see the the issue of the location of the new settlement as very much a strategic issue which should be settled in the structure plan context, and not left to local plans to decide. +The words are there in in the bi in the relevant P P G but I'm sure you're you're familiar with them, er this is very much an issue which falls to be decided at the strategic level. +That does of course pose one or two problems, as far as the locational aspects of the new settlement are concerned, as I understand it neither the County Council nor the relevant District Councils have mandated on the question of location, they've not yet embarked on the detailed exercise which will be necessary to identify a preferred location. +But in our eyes that exercise needs to be conducted before the plan reaches its final approval. +Just how that's going to be accomplished we don't know, we're not party to the discussions, we understand that the Greater York authorities do plan to meet shortly after the end of this examination, but just what further work is necessary before they then get onto the location aspects we don't know about that, all I would say is that we would expect final plan to have the general location of a new settlement embodied in in that plan before it is approved. +It's obviously too early for me to judge whether in the absence of such a definition the Department seek to intervene, but in the word, in the light of what is said in the current P P G I think that must be a possibility, but for the moment, sir, we have very much have an open mind, and we obviously, like everyone else, are looking forward to your conclusions on this issue. +Thank you. +Thank you for putting the ball in my court. +You'd better take it back again. +I'm not sure whether to bat it back to you, but no I won't . +Mr Grantham. +Er John Grantham, C P R E, erm just coming back to the to the general questions you you asked earlier about about erm consistency with guidance and and P P G three in particular, erm in in the written evidence we we've addressed that, and I don't wish to go over that ground short of saying that that I feel the contribution from er Mr Jewitt, which was Hambledon's particularly helpful in that regard in in I think explaining erm how government guidance is different now to when to to to how it was er at the earlier deliberations of the Greater York authorities, and I feel that that's very important consideration erm, I'd I'd like to restrict my my comments just to two points, and they they both really refer to to things that were introduced by the representative from from Barton Willmore. +Erm, Mr Brighton was was critical of the County Council in just using the residual method to determine the size of the new settlement, er and then in in backing up that justification erm referred to to work that is included in in Barton Willmore's proof, I've I have read this survey work quite carefully, and my understanding of it is is that erm by un undertaking a survey of settlements in the county, they have established, albeit f f f for information purposes only, a population threshold for a particular type of service, erm, in in the North Yorkshire context, erm the implication I I understand from that is is that that is being used to justify a fourteen hundred figure or or whatever it is to to achieve the level of services that would would be required for a a balanced integrated community to to use the words for the guidance. +I think the the the B W the Barton Willmore analysis appears to overlook the fact, and again Mr Jewitt referred to this when he referred to Easingwold, that settlement evolves over time, and and nobody seems to be addressing the point that that fourteen hundred, fifteen hundred, two thousand houses, however many it is, won't appear over night, erm er th it would take some time for that to be to be realized erm and as part of that there's no clear view as to when the services will come along that are that are necessary to give that community the balance it it said it requires, erm, Mr Timothy from Wood Fram Frampton referred I think to a figure of twelve fifty dwellings for a viable new settlement, and there were plenty ex of of examples, quote, erm that one could look at to to see that was the case, erm I I'd be interested to know where those examples are an and what there make up erm is. +Just as an aside,thi this is an issue that's currently being grappled with by Litchfield City Council, where the circumstances are erm albeit on a slightly smaller scale similar with with the historic city, and they are commissioning research on this very subject of of service pro provision in in new settlements. +My second point, and it refers to again er something that Barton Willmore referred to and that's the question er an engine of growth, and it seems to to me that that that such a settlement would become an en engine of growth in in the countryside, not least because of of the it would become self fulfilling, er and it would be the obvious sort of sink hole, as Mr Thomas said, for for subsequent land allocations, I think, erm this this point has been touched upon by both the representatives from Leeds City Councils and from Cleveland, Leeds City Council appear not to want it in the Leeds York corridor for just that reason, the representative from Cleveland, who unfortunately isn't here today erm doesn't want it in the North of the county for for what I understand to be to be that same reason, erm and the Inspector at the Stone Basset erm enquiry in Oxfordshire, and I I do refer th to this in my evidence, he he drew a very similar conclusion about this when he said, and I quote, once destep once established the new town would generate a momentum of growth that would be difficult to contain, such growth, if allowed, could further harm the rural character of the countryside and the villages in this part of Oxfordshire, I think that conclusion can be applied to North Yorkshire, and I certainly haven't heard anything that would convince me that that such growth once it started could could be controlled, and indeed the the record of controlling growth against erm projected requirements in the structure plan to date has has not been good, witness earlier comments on the structure plan overshoot. +I think just to conclude the the engine of growth argument, erm, has obviously been raised in relation to other new settlements, notably Cambridge and and this has been referred to already, erm the situation in Cambridge is different to York in in that the level of growth that's that's anticipated for that city is is is significantly higher, and the new settlement erm proposals there have been considered in in that regard and and just for the record C P R E have supported the the new settlement in that particular location, but it does seem to me that the returning to your basic point, that that erm if one applies those circumstances in Nor North Yorkshire it does fly in the face of of established policy in the structure plan, and the overriding er policy is is one of restraint in what is is considered to be one of the country's most sensitive environmental areas, thank you. +Thank you. +Er Mr Brook, and then Mr Curtis. +Clive Brook, Clive Brook Associates. +Er I'd just like to come back on three fairly brief points that er one of which was mentioned by Michael Courcier, two of which er relate to that, and were helpfully stimulated in discussion during the tea break, erm Michael Courcier, I think if I got him right, said, he did say we can't produce demographic forecasts for post two thousand and six but I think he was fairly guarded in saying it it wouldn't be wise or or whatever, erm I would suggest in this context, and in the context of, and I use the word emerging and I look for advice as to when emerging regional planning guidance, and when will be the end date of that regional planning guidance, I say we should be looking beyond two thousand and six, I say we can look beyond two thousand and six, and I would suggest we do it in the way of arrange, which would be highly appropriate way of doing it, not too dissimilar to road traffic forecasts, low medium and high growth, and if, to put the point simplistically, if we have arrived at a requirement figure of nine seven for Greater York for a specific period, if we were to either project that forward by five or ten years, obviously we couldn't just simply go rata, but if you took a low figure and you halved it on the basis of the make up, the demographic make up, of how the nine seven had been arrived at it would be possible to produce a range, that then relates to the question of a new settlement, and the alternatives during the period to two thousand and six, and beyond, of that new settlement, and I go back again to the greenbelt, it is vitally important to do that in the terms of a long term defined greenbelt, therefore again in that context, I would say it is highly desirable, if not necessary, to revisit the periphery of York, it has not been examined in a local plan, it has not been examined in terms of environmental impact, with all due respect to the Greater York working party their, the level of analysis of those peripheral blocks of land was fairly cursory, on a limited number of planning criteria, if a new settlement is to be assessed alongside expansion of Greater York we have to revisit it in much much greater detail. +The final point is in terms of deliverability, when could any new settlement actually produce housing? +A number of criteria would relate to that and we we simply, it isn't appropriate I know, sir, to go into the detail of that, but I I postulate briefly certain questions. +Assuming a fair wind on major infrastructure, access, and drainage, it is unlikely that a new settlement would be producing a significant group of housings until somewhere around, at the very best, end ninety six into the of ninety seven period, in that context, what is happening in that short intervening period, assuming certain planning guidance comes forward to help that intervening period, and will that new settlement actually be built out prior to two prior to two thousand and six, will the fourteen hundred dwellings be built in that period, question mark, probably not, it will lap over, therefore in that context of a gap at the beginning, and a potential overlap at the end, it is very important again to revisit the peripheral land issue. +I'll point those latter questions in the direction of Mr Davis to pick up in his concluding remarks on this discussion. +As to R P G er and its birth, mid December Mr Wincup? +Wincup, D O E. +Perhaps. +And the end date is two thousand and six, as I remember it? +That's the idea, sir. +Yes, thank you. +There's two points in answer for you Mr Brook. +Er, Mr Timothy, and then Mr Brighton. +There's Mr Curtis . +Sorry, sorry Mr Curtis, I'll forget. +Thank you, Chair. +David Curtis, York City Council. +Erm, two er three points would I like, erm, picking up a couple of comments earlier, and coming back to a, I think if we use a cricketing analogy, a long hop I'd like to bowl at you Chair, and you may hit it in Mr Wincup's direction. +Comment was made this morning, er earlier on by Mr Timothy about the fact that the new settlement would be likely to generate a higher usage of transport than is the norm for Greater York, if I understood him correctly, erm, knowing the public transport system in Greater York, erm, I fail to see how he could possibly come to that conclusion, because bus services in the rural part of Greater York are very poor, clearly that's partly because of the distribution of the rural population, and I fail to see that a settlement of the size being suggested would actually generate a level of usage of public transport any higher than that which ex already exists in the York in flat, and certainly no higher than exists within the exis existing urban area. +The second point i is this issue about self containment, er Mr Davis accused me this morning of using some somewhat outlandish words, I think, erm, I did obviously refer to the er my vision of what a new settlement of this size proposed would be, and I I didn't in that mean to imply that I didn't in that mean to imply that I didn't expect that with the right planning that it couldn't have clearly local facilities, local school, library, etcetera, but it seemed to me quite clear that the scale proposed it would not have the higher order functions which as we've heard earlier, Greater York has been defined based on York's planning assumptions, clearly the major shopping, educational, and social facilities will continue to be provided in the city, and it will produce what is in effect dormitory settlement. +The point made by Mr Bishop about employment, shopping and other land I also wish to respond to, I think one of the other participants did mention the issue of existing provision, it's been quite clear from the work of the Greater York authorities that certainly shopping terms there is an oversupply of shopping companies in and around the edge of the urban area at the present time, we have a number of major outstanding consents which have not yet been taken up. +There is actually more than enough land already available to within the main urban area to provide the types of facilities that Mr Bishop was saying were not currently available. +And the long hop as it were, sir, it maybe er not an appropriate time to ask about, but I think it's important to understand, certainly I would like to understand, that if this panel, this enquiry doesn't establish the location for the new settlement, Mr Wincup is implying that that should be agreed before the plan is adopted by the County Council. +At what point after this panel finishes sitting then will the issue be discussed in a public forum of this type, or is Mr Wincup saying the County Council can of itself determine that issue without further public examination. +Thank you. +That's not a long hop, that's a googly. +I think what what Mr Wincup was saying at the end of the day, is that the Inspector's report and the conclusions on the greenbelt local plan will go back to the parent authority, the originating authority, which is North Yorkshire, equally my rec report, out recommendations on this alteration go back to North Yorkshire, they have to take regard to whatever we recommend, ultimately they will take a decision on that, erm depending on the decision other things may flow from it, and I can't really speculate on what those are at the moment, but effectively the final decision as to what they accept or reject will rest with North Yorkshire. +Can I suggest though that there is, using the cricket metaphor again, a long stop role fielded by the secretary of state. +Alright? +Mr Timothy. +Jus just three brief points. +Firstly responding to Mr Grantham and his reference to Litchfield, a city where I work and live, erm +the situa , perhaps it's worth outlining how Litchfield came to look at the new settlement option, because it has some relevance to to York +C can I just stop you there and say is it relevant? +It's absolutely relevant . +To, to anything we're going to consider about a new settlement around York ? +Absolutely because in York, in sorry, in Litchfield you have a confirmed greenbelt right up to the boundary, they were pursuing a local plan for the Li the city of Litchfield in isolation from the rest of the district, and there they were promoting seven hundred and fifty houses to be taken out of the greenbelt. +The Inspector who reported on that Litchfield city local plan said, go away, leave your Litchfield city plan and look at the options beyond the greenbelt, including erm the possibility of a new village, and I think that's that's the point here, instead of rolling back the greenbelt you should be looking beyond, you know, what is the general extent of the greenbelt to see what options are available, just coming on then to the size point, again that Mr Grantham raised, I have through erm experience both in the Cambridge situation which I referred to extensively erm in my statement, and in East Staffordshire where we are promoting a plan, er a site for a new village which is included in the deposited plan, we've looked in both the Cambridge and the er East Staffordshire situation,bo at service provision, both from speaking to the providers of those services and whether or not they need a specific facility in the settlement, and from the developers point of view, that if you've got a pot of money what can you afford to erm provide within a settlement of that size, and the conclusions we are rai er sort of reaching are a du a settlement of the order of twelve fifty dwellings can support your primary school, community centre, erm a range of shops, and so on and so forth, so what I'm saying in my submission that the an appropriate size is in the thousand fifteen hundred mark, is that were you can get a reasonable co balance of community facilities and provide the relevant infrastructure in terms of services. +And it's going back to the point that Mr Curtis I think misunderstood me, that's basically that if you concentrate new growth in one location you have the ability to plan to serve that development by public transport, whereas if you spread it out to all the points of the compass, you know, two hundred houses in one direction of York, two hundred in the opposite direction would become very mor more difficult to serve than would a concentrated er chunk of development, and that's as simple as that. +Not so simple, but never mind. +Yes. +Mr Brighton. +Paul Brighton, Barton Willmore, Paul Brighton, Barton Willmore Planning Partnership. +You asked, sir, a little earlier for a definition of integrated and balanced community, and erm I'm disappointed that er you didn't recall my paragraph three fifteen of my submission to you were I set out erm I thought erm +My senses are dimming, having read all this material. +erm, where I set out my interpretation of what that means, and I don't think it's very helpful to read that out to you, but I think you will find that it's er erm a very broad er description of what the new settlement should be seeking to achieve, now Mr erm I think has misunderstood our position on this question of erm the appropriate size for the new settlement, and I think if I'm correct he suggested that we were promoting a a size of fourteen hundred, the point I think I would make is that the larger the new settlement erm the greater the range and the quality of services and facilities that can be provided, and I think you have to distinguish between what developers say they are prepared to provide, on the one hand in a new settlement, whatever the size, the quality of the retail or recreational social facility that occupies that physical provision, and also its long term viability, and I would suggest that a larger new settlement of the size that we are suggesting, is much more likely to er attract a range of quality providers of services and facilities than a smaller new settlement, and also Mr Grantham er raised the issue of the question of the development program, and what might be expected in terms of services and erm during the development program, and of course I think that would be a matter for any specific proposal, or a ma a matter of discussion between the local planning authority concerned and the developer, and I would expect it to be something erm that was included within a section one O six agreement. +Finally, erm various terms have been erm thrown around about new settlements being an engine of growth and a sinkhole for future growth, erm the only point I want to make there is that any future growth beyond the present structure plan period of two thousand and six would of course be subject to the planning system, there is no automatic erm growth erm of any new settlement that is proposed or may be proposed beyond two thousand and six, and Mr Davis has indicated that at that time a new study will be carried out on the relative merits of the alternative options that were seen at that time. +Thank you. +Thank you. +It's alright, thank you. +Er yes, Chairman, thank you. +Terry Heselton, Selby District. +Erm won't take up much time Chairman, because I think most of the points I want to cover have already been covered by previous speakers. +Erm simply to remind you of the position of of Selby District in in that our interest in a new settlement emerged out of concern for the quality of life in existing villages in in Selby district, and concerns for the impact of future peripheral development in those villages, and not just peripheral development on the edge of York, although of course we acknowledge that as an important consideration and it is for that reason that we fully supported the County Council's proposals in relation to greenbelt, erm you asked the question earlier in relation to the P P G advice and and the six criteria, erm in fact I've already rehearsed that argument in my submission so I won't repeat it now, erm the fact that you chose to phrase the question that way I'll take as a good omen as to the way I presented my submission, but it it it's there for you to read again, the the the main point that I want to address is something that was raised by Mr Wincup yesterday, and that was the difference or not as between Selby district and Hambledon district, er M Mr Jewitt's made reference earlier to his opposition to the new settlement, and in doing so he he he mentioned the settlement pattern in Hambledon district, he'll correct me if I'm wrong, but one of small dispersed villages, well in Selby district we do have villages of that nature, but the Northern part of of Selby district is significantly deferent to Hambledon, it's characterized by much larger villages, and in fact the establishment of a new settlement wouldn't conflict with with the settlement pattern at all. +I can well understand M M Mr Jewitt's concerns, erm I think the simple fact of the matter is that not a great deal of Greater York new housing demand is likely to be generated in Hambledon district, whereas in Selby district a significant amount of er demand is likely to be generated, so really by way of conclusion I I would like through you to ask Mr Mr Jewitt if his opposition to the new settlement is as a matter of principle, or whether he's really stating the case for Hambledon district, in other words, would he object to a new settlement in Selby district? +I leave Mr Jewitt to answer that question. +Mr Jewitt. +Michael Jewitt, Hambledon District Council. +Erm, I think I answered this question this morning in response to erm Miss Whitaker's erm er question to me, erm Hambledon's objection to the principle of a new settlement is based upon, erm, our interpretation of P P G three, we feel that, as I said, it would be disingenuous of us to support the principle at this stage knowing that we were unwilling to accept a new settlement in Hambledon. +Erm, we wouldn't want the policy to progress so far erm as to get to the stage of looking for a specific site and for us to pull the rug underneath the County, and for other authorities to pull the rug from underneath the County at that stage, erm to answer to Mr Heselton's specific question, of course we wouldn't object to a new settlement er in Selby, but erm it doesn't erm it doesn't detract from our objection to erm the principle of the policy, the way the policy's expressed. +So, putting it another way, you don't agree with the principle of a new settlement, but if it happened to be found elsewhere, other than Hambledon, you'd let it ride? +That's correct, Chairman. +Thank you. +Satisfied, Mr Heselton? +Erm, to a degree. +That's the most you can hope for. +Thank you very much. +Erm, pursuing now, I'm going to ask whether there are any more comments on this particular part of this issue? +Because I would like to move on, but I have got, I have got some outstanding questions to ask, er mainly directed at the Districts, and the County, of course. +But does anyone else want to make a contribution? +Or do you think we've covered enough ground? +Can I, can I then come back to P P G three? +There. +Which one? +Here. +Yes, it's alright. +expansion of existing towns and +Why not? +Well that's in the +Yes. +for the County. +relevant to everybody else +Aha. +it's not specifically for the County. +Mhm. +We come back to in fact it's the first par , again it's the first part of thirty three, that you have looked at the question, or the possibility of expanding existing towns and villages, and as I read it, you have rejected that, er and therefore you see the only satisfactory method of providing land to meet the figures for the Greater York would be by a new settlement, this is the outstanding balance. +Why? +Why have you done that? +Are you satisfied that you've done enough examination of your existing towns and villages to come to that conclusion? +Mr Jewitt? +Erm, thank you Chairman. +Er Michael Jewitt, Hambledon District. +Erm I cannot speak for other districts, and they are a far +No, I only want you to speak for yourself. +Yes. +Okay. +And they have a far greater proportion of the Greater York area than we do, erm as I outlined we just have three relatively modest villages, erm our, we do have a concern erm, on this, in that we don't ac , given there's a a district and an area have not be identified, we don't feel that there has been a comparative assessment of the two options, we don't dispute that they may well be harm er from peripheral development around other distric , around settlements in other districts, we acknowledged other other District Council's concerns, and indeed, these are arguments we have used ourselves on the scale of development in Hambledon, er but we don't feel that there has been a properly balanced assessment of the two options. +It occurs to me, for example, that given that all we've heard this afternoon about the fact that a new settlement and again I'm playing devil's advocate, that if it were possible to build onto an existing settlement the quality of life of those who lived in the new settlement might in fact be better than if they were, to put it crudely, finding themselves in the middle of a field. +What I'm really searching for is a bit more evidence from the C , all participants as to why the principle of expanding an exis existing settlement has been rejected, I well appreciate that those who lived in the settlement that was chosen would not like it, but that's not the point I'm getting at, is there nothing in this principle of building on what's there? +Mr Courcier. +Mr Courcier. +Michael Courcier. +I think that's a very good question, I think though that that has been looked at very very thoroughly by the County Council, and certainly there are only a very limited number of options available around York which would actually meet the needs of York. +And one looks at the two most likely existing settlements on which you could do that to are, of course, Easingwold, to the Nor to the Northwest, and Tadcaster to the South. +In terms of Easingwold, I have a client who owns about forty acres who would be delighted with that solution but erm, I don't think that Easingwold could support that level of development, if we're talking a around about two thousand dwellings, without very very substantial harm to its character and setting. +This is a historic town, I I disagree with Mr Jewitt upon the emphasis he gives to that, but I do agree with him that a limit the type, the scale of growth which that solution would imply would be hurtful, would be very, extremely harmful to the town. +It also must be remembered er that the transport links to Easingwold would not be good enough to support that level of development, it does not have a rail station and it does it, and the A nineteen is only a single carriageway road, and would need ld need isagree with Mr Jewitt upon re 1 +Now, wouldn't necessarily suggesting that the existing settlement would have to sustain all of the addition given only what it's got at the moment. +I'm sorry +It could have it could have some more shopping, it could have another primary school, it could have a rail link, or some other public transport link. +Michael Courcier. +I fully I fully accept that, er you would obviously build in the facilities which are necessary, but the most of the settlements are limited by existing physical and other constraints, and those cannot be overcome, you cannot duel the A nineteen as far as Easingwold without very substantial harm, for example to the open countryside, even if it were physically possible and economically possible, to expand Easingwold, sorry, to expand Tadcaster to the required size, we'd need to roll back greenbelt boundaries, again contrary to P P G two. +It er it, we, certainly the expansion of Tadcaster has been looked at quite thoroughly, though not only by the local authorities, but by the private sector, and the, and I think the the agreement has been that it it is not possible at the scale which is required to meet the needs of Greater York. +Thank you. +Would Mr Cunnane, and the District Planning Officer for the Tadcaster area, that's Selby, concur with the views expressed by Mr Courcier? +Do you want to add anything to it, Mr Cunnane? +I do wish to add one point. +Yes. +Er, Joe Cunnane, er, actually, sorry, two points, erm +I represent, ha, that's not I hope that's cheating. +I represent erm the the er the brewery which is located in Tadcaster, and erm I can I can er say without hesitation to this panel that erm the brewery object most strongly, or would object most strongly, to any suggestion that a level of population growth suggested woul should be accommodated. +Tadcaster is a populat has a population of around six thousand at the moment, and if the s the level of increase that is proposed were su were imposed upon Tadcaster you would be talking about a fifty percent increase in the size of the town. +That would be impossible to accommodate without major adverse effect up what is a historic town, almost entirely er located within a conservation area, and as Mr Curtis said, erm constrained by the greenbelt, the final point is er it is located within the A sixty four corridor and it is inevitable that it would serve the needs of Leeds rather than the needs of York if it were expanded in that way. +Okay. +Terry Heselton, Selby District. +This is perhaps one of those rare occasions where I almost agree with Mr Cunnane. +Perhaps not quite to the level of the the development that may be appropriate, but but yes, of of the three market towns in in Selby district it's acknowledged that Tadcaster would have a a less significant role than the other two market towns, if I can put it that way, and yes, there are a number of constraints in Tadcaster, not not the least of which i is an ownership constraint. +Thank you. +Mr Jewitt, while we pose the question about Easingwold. +Michael Jewitt, Hambledon District Council. +Erm, I find myself agreeing with what Mr Courcier said, er, about Hambledon, I don't think it realistic to expect existing settleme , villages within the area of search to form a nucleus for a new settlement, they're simply too small and would be swamped by any development, and also the er I stand by the statements made yesterday about the environmental quality of the settlements, about there form, settings, and characters, and I really don't think that they could form the nucleus of a new settlement. +With regard to Easingwold, well of course Easingwold is at present outside the area of search, erm but again I do agree with what Mr Courcier has said, it would be a doubling the size of Easingwold, Easingwold is a small market town of high environmental quality, the existing form and pattern of development within Easingwold, erm exercise constraints over the scale of future development, the central area is of a certain size, of a certain quality, it's got a certain amount of capacity to accept further development, and I don't believe that a a erm grafting a fur further fourteen hundred houses could be fitted in to that existing infrastructure without serious harm . +Thank you, very much, yes, thank you. +Mr Curtis. +David Curtis, York City Council. +I thank you Chair, I mean, clearly I have to ask for a little bit of license on this one, in that I have to comment on things outside of my own district, erm but you will not be surprised to hear, given my evidence earlier that the City Council's view is quite clearly that there is sufficient land with, on the edge of York, the main urban area, which could accommodate this type of level of development and obviate the need for a new settlement in the structure plan period, I accept, however, of course that that is dependant upon the definition of the inner boundary of the greenbelt, if the City Council's view on that is er acceptable then Inspector, I believe there will be sufficient sites to obviate the the need for a new settlement, clearly if the Inspector takes a tighter view on the greenbelt, then there will be little land opportunity within the main urban area for this. +Well I, I mean, you know, just forget your admin boundary at the moment, I mean would you concur with the views expressed about Tadcaster and Easingwold? +I +Just as a planner, never mind where you're working. +I I would be surprised if either of those settlements could accommodate the level of development being suggested in a satisfactory way. +Thank you very much. +Now, Mr Smith, Ryedale. +Ian Smith, Ryedale. +Erm on the question of whether or not we're satisfied that we've done enough examination to reach our conclusion, we've examined our greenbelt boundaries on two occasions, firstly as part of the Greater York study, and secondly as part of the work on the Southern Ryedale local plan. +The District Council has accommodated the highest proportion of Greater York growth of all the districts surrounding York over the last ten years, and therefore I think it likely that it would expected to accommodate the largest proportion of the fourteen hundred dwellings that would be accommodated in the new settlement, erm I do not think that any of the settlements or that there is sufficient land within the Southern Ryedale area to accommodate that level of development without adversely affecting character of the settlements, or compromising greenbelt objectives, as I mentioned this morning, and also I question whether or not erm whether th most of the settlements in the Southern Ryedale area have only a minimal s minimal service base anyway on which to tack any large housing growths, and I don't necessarily foresee any subsequent rise in the service base of those settlements as a result of the housing being added on to them. +And thinking about your district, I mean places like Pickering and Malton are too far away to be satisfactorily considered, are they? +Ian Smith, Ryedale District. +Yes they're erm I mean there erm Malton's what thirty minutes drive from York, Pickering's probably forty five, up to an hour. +Yes, yes. +Thank you. +Yes. +But he hasn't said whether he accepts the settlement. +He doesn't. +Alright, okay. +Come back to that one. +Okay. +Mr Frost. +Lindsay Frost, er Harrogate Borough Council. +Just to complete the picture on the districts around York, erm and in answer to the issue raised by er Miss Whitaker, I think the villages in erm the Harrogate sector of Greater York are all far too small to erm act as a nucleus for the size of development we're talking about here, er the largest of them, Upper Poppleton, probably has about seven hundred to eight hundred houses, and that I think would be swamped and lose its character and also possibly suffer from coalescence with the nearby York urban area, if er large amounts of additional development were tacked onto it. +Er I'm also concerned that the services in er even a village that size would be erm overwhelmed by the demands of erm large scale development, but that's the largest, there are a range of other settlements which are mostly much smaller and even much less able to accommodate, or act as a nucleus for large scale development. +I would like to emphasize that erm the Greater York authorities haven't lightly arrived at erm the strategy for a new settlement, er we have been driven to it by a very careful examination of the development possibilities, firstly around the edge of York, and secondly around the various villages, we know these areas erm intimately from our day to day planning work, and on two occasions, once in connection with the Greater York study, and secondly in connection with drawing detailed greenbelt boundaries we have tramped around the edges of all these settlements and looked very carefully at the possibilities for development, erm the possibilities have been taken up in the development equation, which the County Council has put in front of you, which does still include er some development around villages and around the edge of the city without harming greenbelt, but we don't really think we can go much further, and that's what has driven us to the conclusion that er a new settlement must play a part in the longer term development equation for Greater York. +Thank you. +Thank you. +Mr Cunnane. +Joe Cunnane, I'm sorry, but er Chairman, but I did actually miss probably the most important point I should have made about Tadcaster +and that is that it is +It's never too late. +never, no, and that is that it is constrained by a very tight village envelope which has actually just been defined and statutorily approved as an alteration to the rural areas local plan erm, and th the effect of that village envelope is to limit the possible amount of development to I would say no more than three or four hundred house. +Thank you. +Chairman. +Er Terry Heselton,Sel Selby District. +Just er for clarification that that is indeed the case as Mr Cunnane says, but the erm the village envelopes were brought forward by way of an alteration to the adopted rural areas local plan which will take us up to nineteen ninety six, erm we will possibly have to look and review some of those envelopes in connection with the emerging local plan. +Thank you very much. +Sorry to sound a little perverse on that issue, but I, we really wanted to have a clear indication of what you felt as District Planning Officers, er an and indeed we'll hear what the County feel and in fact have pursued through this alteration, but can I again, just for clarification, and in fact it's a sort of final head count, er and again I raise this in the context of P P G three paragraph thirty three, and that is the degree of acceptability, or otherwise, by the local planning authorities, erm and I only need a nod from you, or otherwise, for the record. +York, I take it, are not in favour of a new settlement? +You don't have to go over the arguments, I've heard that. +Ha Selby are in favour. +Correct. +Ryedale are in favour, in principle. +Hambledon, not in favour. +Either in principle, or in detailed allocation, but wouldn't object if it went somewhere else. +I'm not not being rude. +And Harrogate in favour. +Thank you. +Mr Cunnane is that up for some reason, that flag of yours? +No. +Now unle now unless there are any participants that want, really burning to make a comment, er I feel that we have settled, well we've had enough discussion on little A, I've got enough, well I've got enough from you in terms of your views about size of settlement, and Mr Brighton has pointed me again in the direction of his submission about er the definition of an integrated and balanced community, I would like to know, er from Mr Davis whether he concurs with that sort of interpretation, and I have a feeling that we have also had an expression, generally, that at the moment one settlement is probably appropriate, if you have to have a new settlement. +Fair? +Is that a fair conclusion? +I did add that rider, just. +Mr Davis, can you, would you like to sum up, and pick up these points, and before, I'm going to bowl you a googly here, erm you have talked about fourteen hundred, as the size for the new settlement, erm, is that the top figure, or is that a figure to which you might aim by the year two thousand and six, but may have potential for growth beyond it. +Can I add that to my list? +Er Peter +Yes. +Davis, er North Yorkshire. +I want at the end erm, Chairman to give you my views of what is meant by er, an integrated and balanced community because I think that's that's quite important, but before I do that, I'd like to mop up one or two er points right at the end in response to some of the contributions that have been made, and I'll deal with them, Wincup, Curtis, Brook, er and Thomas, if that's acceptable er to you, and really as far as Mr Wincup is concerned, he's quite properly raised the issue of procedural issues about how the Greater York authorities is going to address moving towards er an agreed location, and quite clearly I've got to reaffirm again that the County Council will want to look at both the greenbelt local plan report and your panel report before er it moves erm er forward or looks at any conclusions it may be moving to in the light of those er in the light of those reports, and quite clearly, as we all know, there are a number of options. +Er and I, as Mr Curtis has suggested, if Mr Shepherd who conducted the greenbelt local plan enquiry decided on massive relaxation or substantial relaxation on the inner boundary, er of the greenbelt, er and the implication being that er some of that land could be made available for housing, then yes, as a matter of principal that would cast doubt on the new settlement er strategy in terms of the in terms of the numbers, conversely, if you look at another option, if you, for example, confirmed the new settlement strategy but thought that the development requirement for Greater York really was er needed to be larger than nine thousand seven hundred dwellings, twelve thousand, thirteen thousand, and I hope not, then the County Council would need to have a look at the issue of one as opposed to two new settlements, and again we will do that, and we will not take any decisions on the basis of having one report, er but not another, and I hope er that that is helpful, I can confirm that er at the end of this month the Greater York authorities will be meeting, erm and er they will be urgently looking towards erm progress erm on this issue. +So that's really a a very important underlining of what I said earlier. +Moving on to to Mr Curtis, I don't want to dwell and re re er restate the the difference I had with Mr Curtis this morning, but again he did start a little bit of a red herring running by talking about the major commitment for retailing facilities, er there is a major commitment for retailing facilities in Greater York, er a degree of all provision. +But the level of all provision of course is in terms of comparison goods, and in terms of large shopping malls. +Erm now I I don't think anybody's suggesting that in er the Greater York new settlement we would be likely to achieve a large shopping mall anchored at both ends, one by Marks and Spencers er and the other by Fenwicks, or or or any o or bins or any other department store, so he must really understand the process and really what we talking about er er in North Yorkshire. +Moving onto er to Mr Brook, erm and really this leads into Mr Thomas, Mr Brook er erm er advised us, advised you that there was a very cursory look at er er at sites during this five year exercise. +Well I can tell you, sir, that is incorrect, there has not been a cursory look at sites as Mr Frost has already underlined. +Er, the forty, fifty sites in and around the urban area, and in villages were looked at in detail, as Mr Frost said, by tramping around in terms of of of I think er twelve criterium, although the part of er York City Council's erm er evidence. +As for long term projections er er another issue raised by erm er Mr Brook, er I think if we were to go beyond two thousand and six the debate we've had erm yesterday, er what day is Thursday, er Tuesday +and Wednesday, erm and to small degree today would pale into insignificance and really er er it might boggling to to think about it, to try and erm er to draw some sense out of er demographic data for the post two thousand and six er er scenario, the uncertainty would be so great that erm that er we certainly wouldn't er er advice it. +Er and then finally on Mr Thomas, er Mr Thomas erm, a number of occasions has er has referred to these sites in and around the er er urban area, if Mr Thomas would like us to show us a list of those sites, er we will look at them, we've been through it on a number of occasions, square inch almost by square inch, but I'd be very interested for Mr Thomas's list of sites in and around the urban area. +Now that does bring me on to another important issue, and this is the definition of integrated er and balanced community. +What does the County Council mean by an integrated er and balanced community? +I wouldn't define integrated and balanced individually, I'd link them together, because to me they appear to be er a concept, that you move towards, and the concept to me is shall we say to provide a balanced population structure, which isn't biased to any one sector shall we say, it's not an elderly, it's not a retirement village there like perhaps you have in er certain parts of er er North America, and the second element of the concept is that it should provide a range of services compatible with its size, but I qualify that by saying, but not all the services that the people in that settlement require, and this brings me back to my discussion, debate with Mr Curtis. +If the issue today in some people's eyes is the need for this community in Greater York to be one hundred percent self sufficient then perhaps we really ought to go pack up and er go home, er because there's no way that er a settlement that one could envisage in Greater York or perhaps anywhere else can be a hundred percent self sufficiency, self sufficient, you're not going to get a shopping mall, you'd be unlikely to get a a major touring theatre, so you cannot aim for a hundred percent self sufficiency, you aim for what is appropriate for the size of the community and particularly its relationship to existing settlements er in the general area. +You aim for a reasonable provision of jobs, bearing in mind the job requirement, er within that settlement, and you aim for an appropriate range of social, recreation, and education uses, erm er within the village, so that on the basis of our proposal, as we say in N Y five, you will expect to have a primary school. +Now I cannot say whether you will have a secondary school, and the reason I cannot say that er is because the education authority will, quite properly, and quite reasonably, look at the existing pattern of secondary education er in the area, and will bear in mind that secondary school children, not unreasonably, as they do now, can be expected, erm to travel, er some distance, er to a school facility, that is the real world, you cannot expect a local education authority to spend vast amounts of money erm on er a high range of facilities, which are not justified by the size, er, of the community, and all these social, recreation, er an an and education facilities appropriate to the size erm of the community, need to be expressed in a pattern of land use which is well integrated, and well designed, in other words, it's a good design concept er, and how do you do that? +Well we think you do it through negotiation with developers on an agreed location, and you do it through a brief. +Now that is the accepted way of doing it, and I cannot see any reason why that cannot be done, erm in Greater York, once the location for the new settlement is erm er is identified, erm so that's my definition of erm integrated and balanced community, it's a concept, you can't define, I don't think, integrated and balanced separately, you need to bind them together er into into some erm er or all er erm concept, erm now the erm the question you did pose me, sir, which er I did take a note of, but I wonder if you'd be kind enough to repeat it so I've I've a I've a got it quite clear before I respond. +Well it the question was, do you see the fourteen hundred dwellings for the new settlement as being the maximum size, maximum desirable size, or do you see that being possibly continued beyond two thousand and six? +I don't have any view erm er on that, if I understand your question, because I think it realistic to assume that post two thousand and six one of the options that we could be reasonably expected to consider, together with the District Council, is the possibility of a further, shall we say, how addition to, a a further phase er onto the new settlement, erm so that the new settlement erm would evolve, if that was the chosen option, and as it evolved it may well be that more of Mr David Curtis's higher level facilities er would be added. +But it is an option that I certainly wouldn't want to discount at this particular er stage erm because it depends on so many er factors, it depends for example whether er the site that er has been identified for up to two thousand and six, and which is developed up to two thousand and six, has the physical capacity to expand beyond two thousand and six, and I think that that ought to be one of the considerations perhaps that we ought to look at as we move towards the identification erm er of the new settlement, conversely, it could well be that ought to be looking at a second new settlement in a different location, erm I can't give an answer, a definitive answer, what I can say is, coming back again er to Mr Brook, this sort of issue er will not be picked up in nineteen eighty eight or nineteen eighty nine, er if we are all alive and kicking in North Yorkshire and the District Councils we will be looking at it regularly, we'll be looking at it in two years time, one years time, erm erm that's the way we work in Greater York, and it's basically worked very successfully. +Thank you, Chairman. +There was the outstanding question about the Greater York area. +Yes. +Do you want to pick that one up now? +Yes indeed, that +Good. +I think was er er erm Mr Thomas, and I think perhaps hinted on by the Senior Inspector as well, er what is, what is Greater York?to do with Sylvia, erm +Indeed. +erm I I think if you look back, and again we could put a another paper in on this, N Y one, which was erm sort of a background to the history of planning in Greater York, which er er we we did, which I think Malcolm Spittle wrote for the for the greenbelt, enquiry, erm and that showed that in the, well before nineteen seventy four of course, there there were four authorities involved in Greater York. +They were the North Riding Authority, er the East Riding Authority, the West Riding Authority, all of which converged on the on the city of York, and as you read through the files, er you will see that even then the D O E were trying to get erm those er those predecessor authorities in the late fifties, early sixties er to come to some view about what ought to be better for Greater York, so for many years the idea of Greater York ha has been current er in one guise or another. +What I see as being Greater York is an area outside the city, it's the city and an area outside the city, which is socially and economically linked erm with the main urban area, which is primarily, in terms of employment er and other services, the city, now as Mr Thomas quite reasonably suggested erm things change. +We defined the Greater York area erm erm initially in the in the late seventies, erm when we first ran a Greater York exercise, we redefined the area marginally in the middle, late eighties, erm erm and the definition that we have used for the Greater York study since then er is the one that we are talking about now. +Now, could argue that Greater York could be bigger or smaller, the local government commission, erm er there report is a very interesting read, I mean a number of the options that they've looked at would be a gra er a city of York going out to the ring road, erm that might be one option, there's a there there idea of of Greater York, they did harden, they did see some merit in in a Greater York unitary authority based on the Greater York planning study I think, erm whether that is going to come to pass only Mr Gummer presumably er knows, so my idea of Greater York is that it's an area which is tied socially and economically to the city, you could argue as mobility increases, as the A ni nineteen is improved up through the County that really Northallerton now is perhaps more within the sphere of influence of York than it was ten years ago, erm e it was probably to a degree influenced by York even twenty years ago, erm I don't think er there is much to be gained by debating where Greater York ought to be, the Secretary of State previously hasn't been bothered about er amending it er it seems to us to be the reasonable area, and it's a combination of five districts, erm erm erm who who who hopefully should be working together towards sorting out the er other problems of Greater York. +I understood its historical evolution, what I was looking for I think, and not an answer tonight, tomorrow may be a better day, was how does the area which you have defined, for example, now relate to journey to work patterns. +Hmm. +Erm, what other rational is there behind this definition, the reason this matters is th you will remember the Chairman's opening remarks when we started on matter two, that it seemed from the debate we had yesterday there was room within the county for the County Council's proposed level of housing provision +Mm. +and therefore the question of the new settlement is inextricably bound up with where that provision is in relation to you br definition of Greater York. +Mm. +Erm I +I don't want to press for an answer tonight +yes. +that may be something you want to think about, can I also remind, particularly the District Councils, those who request this morning for a different version of the H B F commitments statement. +I think we'll get together, Peter Davis, with with the Districts on that particular point, as far as the previous point erm madam, erm then you can rest assured that er the County Surveyor will be rousted out of his dinner tonight er erm when I get back, with a view to er providing the information that you require. +Not necessary, Tuesday will do if it's that serious. +Yes, don't spoil the County Surveyors dinner, please, he might stop gritting. +Thank you Mr Davis. +Mr Brighton. +Paul Brighton, Barton Willmore. +Erm Mr Davis referred to N Y one erm in his er statement there, in the interests of saving paper I just wanted to er to state that it is included as appendix one +Yes. +this morning in our statement. +I read that as well. +Well unless there are any other issues that people want to rai any other items people want to raise on this issue, I propose we close now, resume at ten o'clock in the morning, and we will go straight into matters, well matter two C, to look at the di criteria. +Thank you. +Can I remind you we will not be sitting after lunch tomorrow, but what I would hope is we could probably deal with C and E in the morning,b by one o'clock. +We have got a flexibility factor on Tuesday morning, but if I can avoid that I would like to do it, and I'm sure some some others would as well. +See you tomorrow. + +Looks like black dresses are going out slightly more. +. +It's a bit further down I think. +. +They said they might be able to get before us though, didn't they? +Penny went shopping with Rowan, into one of those very expensive boutiques shops, yeah, and between them they bought this dress, and when they got it home, Rowan's mother wouldn't let her have it because it was too revealing and so Penny was stuck with it and then her mother wouldn't let her have it either, but the shop wouldn't refund, it would only give them credit so she's got all this money to spend in the shop . +This is quite nice, an anorak isn't it? +Yes. +With a hood, yes that's nice +I like it +I don't know. +No +Oh yes, that's the one I think. +Sandy, that's what it was , it's a twelve. +Yes, that's it, mm . +They got it yesterday, oh it's gone up, no it's not the same one, they haven't got that one after all . +That's . +That's a different one isn't it? +That's the one. +I think I tried on a ten didn't I? +It was a bit too small wasn't it? +Was it? mm. +A hundred and forty nine, that was the one, that was the one that she had. +Try some more on let me have a look at them. +Just erm, does it look daft?. +she didn't want a long one. +No, wanna try that do you? +Yeah, but she has tried it before. +Yeah, it was awful. +She's, it was just erm, can we have the twelve, try the twelve that's only a ten, does it, does . +We, do we try that one as well? +We tried one like that didn't we?. +Yes, that would , yes we did. +What's that one, was that . +That's right , yes, zip the hood that'll go over +Let me see it on you. +Wanted to wear . +Go on, try them on. +. +The trouble with when you see one and like the sizes there are suppose to get it, because they go so quickly. +Yeah, that's right. +This time of the year and that . +You don't know that . +. +Why, why don't you take it off? +I'll try, will I . +. +I've got three quarters length underneath so they'll go up any way. +Just too small look the ten. +Yes, yes it is. +Yeah it is. +Yeah, there's no doubt about that, erm, well that was, that was the one that your stile that you liked wasn't it? +Let's try . +Yeah. +Ah, that's the only one we have left in that +There's one in the window I'm just gonna have a look, cos I never had noticed when I came in this morning +What was in the window. +Okay, that's quite nice, yeah that is quite nice, I like that. +I think that's a bit more mod really, thing is this is more the sort you had isn't it? +I quite like that one at the end as well. +The reddy one. +The gi , that one hanging up. +Yes, that's short you see, isn't it again? +That's the same as the +Yeah, but that's very short that is. +Yeah I'm +. +don't say much. +You'd like the duffel coat won't you, no, oh well,if you don't like it. +Don't particularly like the red either, +Well I mean, yes I think that +. +Two hundred and ninety nine, that one there . +Do you like that one . +That's longer +. +Is a twelve in that? +You have one, yes that's nice nice colours. +Is it real? +Yeah, I tell you what looks . +. +It looks nice in a ten but that's all +. +Just want to try on . +It is just because of your hair. +And of course it's a practical length, but there you are you've got to like it. +Yeah,. +I like this better than that duffel coat one . +The other one . +The thing about it is, is a classic style . +That's beautiful on you, that's the one to have . +It's not going to date. +It's not a fashion jacket, +No. +whereas, erm, the shorter ones tend to be +Beautiful +fashionable. +These are things that will, will have for years. +Rachel I think that's the +Can I ask if +Do you like it better than +Yeah, that's beautiful on you, isn't it? +How much is it? +Two hundred and ninety nine. +It is, yeah. +. +and I'll put the rest, yeah, I'll give you that'll keep her warm and , that's beautiful. +. +That's lovely, absolutely +You see it's . +Don't worry about that, I'll pay a bit more for you. +If you like it love, that's the most important thing +Yeah. +I, I, I don't want you to have anything you don't like. +. +She likes it? +Yeah. +Yes. +That's, that's, bonny and beautiful isn't it? +And they it gives it warm. +Yeah, yeah. +It's the most skin and there's so, there this so . +It's beautiful. +It's, it's like the one aunty Lynne had and I, I bought for aunty Lynne, years ago, that I still got in the cupboard you know. +I wore it, all it was lovely,. +What's that, the other one was it? +That's the other ten. +You can try the other ten if you want to be absolutely sure about it, cos it's, you know, look at the length of that one as well, I mean +She's going to Russia for a week in February of all times and we want to have something really warm . +So you won't to have something really warm . +Beautiful buttons. +Well . +You can do that right up, right, you can turn the neck up, now this one here +Do this one . +it'll only be shorter, it won't keep you warm down the bottom, yeah and here on the neck it's, alright you can tell me the colour of, but it, it is quite +. +. +. +Okay . +You sure? +Oh it's lovely. +It's, it's, nice. +I know. +And I think this, this with a white fur begins to look a big grubby after a while, but this colouring it, it doesn't show and . +Beautiful, yeah, you convinced yourself. +Yeah. +I'm sure she has, she couldn't hesitate about that. +. +The colouring to the hair, I mean I've got it in another colour , but I, I think it +, oh that's the colour +colour wise, I mean +The darker one . +No this is the colour of your hair. +No, for your hair I mean. +. +pay it's alright money wise? +Thank you. +, or you can have it right now . +. +That's right. +Oh how embarrassing . +That's it. +It's gorgeous, there going to Moscow and St. Petersburg so, it should be lovely. +Right . +Yeah . +Okay then. +Actually I think I like this better now . +Of course you do, I, I no my, I wouldn't say Rachel if I didn't think it was alright. +Right. +And you've got some nice warm trousers with it, you'll be well away, you'll, there, there keep you warm stockings and the thick socks, yeah. +I'll give you a leaflet and everything on it, thank you very much indeed. +Okay . +Wait a minute you'll want this. +Yeah +You have it on? +Yes, it's been on ages. +That's fine. +Erm, I don't suppose that you +. +Don't worry about it now, you +You don't want the money . +No, no, and I'll promise I will give you that . +I'll hold the bag again for you got the gloves here too look. +Yeah, yeah, I've got a pair of in that colour you could have . +You, you put the date on it or your statement on it say . +Ah?, yes. +Will you use this, it's a suede guard, it's a suede and leather guard it's a rather good +I think actually got one at home, but we . +It's advisable to put it on before you wear the coat, what +Right , +you do is hang it over on the clothes line, stand back a few inches, just give it an even spray , +yeah , +you only do it the once unless you have the coat cleaned +right +and you know +It's like a scotch guard for furniture really. +yeah, it, it stops stains penetrating the skin +Right. +that's what it is +Ah, yes. +and the that we show you here tells you all about it, how to look after it and everything +Yeah. +now we give you those, but this is one pound, ten pence, it's well worth having, but if you get a mark on, once you've got that guard on +Oh that's right. +that'll just wipe it off +Wipe it off, yeah . +it tells you all about it in the book and also here. +Thanks. +Okay. +You gonna take that as well? +, enjoy your trip then. +Thank you, yeah. +Lovely lovely, your really lucky. +Love to see them just to see what it's like, okay. +Okay, thank you very much. +Bye, bye. +Bye yes I , they let me do it on that if you authorise them. +Would you like to do it straight away on . +I'll do it straight on that, I needn't go and authorise the cheque, have to get it on that +No, that's fine , if that's all right with you? +It'll come straight out. +Yeah. +Okay. +Fine. +Yeah, that's okay, thank you. +Save you walking down the . +That's right, thank you. +Well say, I suppose the . +Well yes, that's right, yeah. +Did you apprec appreciate the . +Then er +No it's nice, I like it. +Oh you +. +everybody else can . +Probably and the teacher's, yeah. +is it? +Yes. +Let's see +. +I say, thank you very much for . +Bye, bye. +Bye. +Can you take all this back to the car, while you go into, if you go into A & N, I'll take all this back to the car while you go into A & N +You sure?. +up the ramp for you. +No it's alright, +Jenny. +It's alright now,. +I'll put the hind seat I'll bring the bag back . +Bring the bag back . +Ok. +Sure. +You go back up to A & N, I'll meet you in there, no where, you wanted tights +Yeah. +and what else do you want? +I want some tights, I want some Berkshire there very good Jenny. +I know, I've had Berkshire,. +There very nice,. +I'll meet you at the tights department , but you can go and have a look at the, anything else first if you want to and then come back to the tights, I'll shall be a minute or two. +Alright, be careful Jenny don't fall.. +. +I know, yeah. +lovely person, she's always been since a little girl. +Mrs Noel, she's ever so impressed with her. +Who? +Mrs Noel, you know, the psychologist. +Oh I don't know . +Well you knew I was seeing her. +Yeah, why?. +I, but, you haven't met her . +I got muddled because I thought that teacher, it's just a psychology. +No. +Well, why do I get to think that? +Well how did you come to get in a psychologist. +Well you knew about it, because erm when you use to stay with . +, oh yes, that's right, just er, I couldn't . +She was helping me with the french. +Yeah, and she's a, yeah I . +Yeah. +What did she say about it then? +Oh she said what a lovely loving mother I had and, she was ever so interested with her cos she said some of the people she sees, you know, are not very strict with their children and that all sorts of things and er, get's very cross with them +Yeah , yeah. +but erm, she let +When your older +she let mum +you realise how important it is, that a, you've got to learn self control in life, and that's what Jenny learnt, she, she, never had to learn it, she had it from naturally from a, a little child. +Tights are in the bag. +Jen , Lynda's learnt it, but she hasn't got it, like your mother had, and she, she did dreadful things when she was little +. +it was in my training, she but she hadn't but your mother who never had before I could rely on her from a little child, I said stay there, when I came back, if I came back half an hour later, she'd still of been there Linda would of been +. +doing her own thing. +But Mrs Noel's let her into the house you see, normally she doesn't let the mother's come in if she's trying to help a child with difficulties +Yeah. +but erm, she let mum come in cos she liked her. +Yeah, yeah, I'm sure she did, you'll, and as you get older you'll need .. +Oh alright then. +And compared to me she's a much better person than I've ever been, she is, she's wonderful, in, but granddad's got a nice nature,granddad and that's, that's probably where she get's it from, I'm not . +Yeah , I know One pair of those tights were seven ninety nine, it's no wonder I thought they were nice when I looked at them. +Oh my god . +I wanted er . +They right them on +. +just the sort I have I think, I or, or the lycra ones they do sometimes. +You could ask the girl . +I also I don't like Pretty Polly at all. +It's got a 'B' on it. +There are A's at the end there and J's, huh. +I was going to add it up a bit. +Oh, no, no, no, no. +. +It maybe . +I don't like the idea +What do you want? +. +What do you want? +Erm, I'm just looking for some with lycra because I like to be able to afford a bit more . +I bought some pyjamas for your mum . +Did you, oh she'll be pleased with that . +It'll probably be for Christmas , there's not many I thought perhaps +No. +had an awful job to get them because there awful this, a horrible flannelette stuff. +Mm. +what's coming into fashion now are long woollen panties to wear underneath your trousers. +, haven't seen those. +I have, I'd get you a pair if you thought you'd wear them. +Mm, you know. +Yes. +Why don't ankles. +These are the one's I was looking at look, seven ninety nine, yeah,. +I don't know where are the ones I normally have . +Well, what sort did you want?. +They've, there with lycra but, there kind of more cheap you know let me get these. +Are they strong then? +Well, they give, I, I don't know, it's the way they feel when you put them on, they sort of hold themselves up a bit better and +Oh , and in my size, I'll try them and I'm a large and there's. +There's some over there, but lot's of them have lycra ones. +. +Forty seven for +Just be over here alright? +though that's pretty good, you . +. +Oh these they have four, there not with lycra though are they? +They didn't stock nannies make, but she's bought me mine. +Oh right, well I pay my how much are they? +First one seventeen. +You sure? +Right, now, well they don't do, but they do them at , now what do you want, do you want to have a look at the erm, green +I want to have a look at the . +Not as much as the ones I'll with you . +This, is she wanted one, she wanted one for erm yourself didn't you? +Eighteen pounds. +No wonder I like things I was looking at these tights, yeah, it's just one pair, and they were about eight pounds +That's like the . +Oh you alright there? +Golden Black. +No, where is she? +Mum says there are some round there in Golden Black if you want to come and see them. +Where is that . +There's one in blue as well look, behind it and with white and gold. +Can I have a look at that one? +That's right you like the gold did you? +Mm. +Got a square one as well. +Yeah, I thought you liked the green. +Yes, but there're a bit more unusual. +that's nice. +Cor, nice price too. +. +Me too. +. +Sixty two. +Bags are always expensive in here. +Is it? +Well yes . +Some more over there, do you want to have a quick look? +Trying to think what Penny would like, but I can't. +You, you said you was gonna get her some underwear. +Yes, I think I will, I think that's quite a good idea, Joe's getting her jewellery, so. +Yes , yeah, well there's always there's Marks & Spencers, no, no, we want to do what with got to do here first, now what have we got to do here +Well we'll go +Yes . +you want to go and have a look . +Yes, right up the stairs then. +The escalator. +The escalator's the other direction +. +Ok +No, I don't believe he's going to use that. +That's nice isn't it?, that's quite nice though isn't it? +Oh yeah, I +There's a short one. +Yeah, there's a pendanty one, yeah +Go up then? +Yes +Mine the step can't see any red tights I like, you know, from that shop +. +With a , erm, that shop in Woking, erm what's it called? +Robinson's. +did you say Robinson's? +Yeah up +I want to . +Sorry. +I want to . +Oh yeah. +. +Are they . +. +They might have them upstairs. +Yeah. +it might be this store one, that I don't know. +I would of thought it was more likely to be on this floor +Materials there Yes, this is place, is this where they , very nice +any more? +And they've got the to match. +Yes, it's not the right one. +Wrong colour. +Mm. +They could probably get them though, couldn't they, if they've got +Well I know we might get them when erm, in er Debenham's might'n we? +Mm +Anything else just here. +If I just take the serviettes I could ask her if they were obtainable . +yeah, they have those serviettes +Yeah, probably change those,. +No, I should think so, I should think it's just, that there probably sold those ones, they've only had certain colours of the range in. +Mm, look at those flannels? +. +Mm, quite useful to have isn't it though bit that's quite nice . +More one's as well . +There's a green one there. +That's a short one. +They, that is a longer one +There's a green one here. +. +one . +Oh yes, that's nice. +Five ninety nine. +From eighteen ninety nine down to five ninety nine . +It's got a nice edge hasn't it look? +Yeah,for a change. +I got, I got . +Have you? +If you wanted something just say. +Just say, that would be alright, and he wears this green, this green stuff doesn't he? +Who? +John . +It stopped so that they didn't miss the conversation. +Can we get this in . +Let me hold this for you. +Let's come away from the top of the stairs cos it's Right +Go down the other end I expect . +. +Yes, except for like the . +Pretty. +Isn't it? +Mm. +What for the wrapping paper +Wrapping paper . +Yeah. +Beautiful. +I just go and see if I can go and find some of these things then. +Saw them at the same time, change of address . +Change of address , there's invitations. +It's quite nice, just plain. +Yeah +Different. +Don't do that one because that's . +Please come for +Yeah, +It's nice, I suppose please come for please I don't like that. +No, no there not as nice as those pretty erm +No. +but it might be better to find a . +That's quite nice. +Yes, bit old, but how many do you want? +Oh, about eight, you see this is the right number there so expensive here. +Here's the children's, but that's a, that's a +These I'll be alright. +They haven't got any pads with them, writing pad, but that's . +There quite pretty too. +Little place cards, look. +. +Invitation, wedding do you want to look any where else or you have those cos cos you think these will be alright. +No, these will be alright. +You got some of those there. +Mm, don't think there as nice as those ones we bought in that +Oh, didn't . +. +. +Oh really. +Oh, all the other you know. +I thought there pretty yeah. +Yeah , mm +No it doesn't look if there is anything else, but if you think these will be alright +These will be fine , yeah. +. +Mm, you getting those? +Yeah. +Those, those little boxes you've got . +Yeah , well I thought cos I've got those two little rings . +Oh yeah +for the boys. +Yeah, those swirly ones are nice. +Big boy. +. +No, no . +The ones . +Four twenty five please +. +. +Yeah, so that. +Five seventy five please. +Thank you very much, can we just go and have a look at the pens then +. +Those are sweet, look at those little ones. +That's a pad, paper and . +Think these are lovely. +A hundred pounds. +. +, I expect one of those will be alright, were they stripy ones we saw the other day? +Where, where did you see those? +That in that shop, we got the serviettes from ah, look at those elephants mum. +Well I don't mind about, up to about ten . +We saw some white Christmas . +. +Yeah. +Yeah, we saw some attractive ones with a shop in that pub didn't we Rachel? +Yeah. +Erm that's a biro is it? +No it's a pencil. +That's average looking isn't it? +Eleven ninety nine +That's a some here, nine ninety nine. +. +Roller ball one, pencil that is. +Mm, erm, this is a pen. +I've got one like that, there very good +Yeah. +isn't it? +Yeah. +I did have the roller ball don't you? +, it is good value, yeah. +Nine, ninety nine. +Well that's a roller ball yes. +I did, I didn't erm, I didn't know whether you use it or not,. +. +What is that one, there both biro's. +No, this one's a pen,that's a ball pen . +He mightn't use pen nowadays, might he? +No, I don't think, but he's quite old fashioned, he might. +Difficult to know isn't it what . +. +What's that one there,. +It's a ball point +That's nine fifty, that's quite nice +is that the same? +The nine fifty. +Ah is it a nine fifty is it? +That'll be, that'll be alright, let's just have a look at the +Shall I stop this for a while because of the noise? +Yes. +Well while you're just having look there for a minute I'm gonna nip to the basement and straight back up again ok , I won't be a minute. +Ok , mm +That's nice. +That's the sort granddad wears. +He wouldn't wear that collar though would he? +Ah, that's extra large +What's that? +. +. +That's a large, yeah. +There's a stripy one, but he wouldn't wear strips would he, like that? +No, I don't think, but if it's pyjamas he . +. +.. +That white one's quite nice. +Yeah. +It's extra large. +Oh I think . +No, oh . +Let's see, what colour do you want? +I'd like green, but I don't want a stripy one. +Oh I see, erm. +. +That's the other, the other, they do seven, that's the other type, that's that one, I haven't got many of those left, that's a +Oh, yes, that's the one, that's what I'm looking for, bet you haven't got , well he want's a large. +that's a medium that one, erm +Mm. +I think that's a large one that I've got . +that's what I wanted that would of been alright. +That's a medium, that would be about forty. +Mm. +It wouldn't really fit forty . +No, it wouldn't be right for him, he's an older man, you know, and it, would, you know, he's, it would, he would take it up more +summer, I suppose it's not meant for summer cos it's got long sleeves. +Yes it's, yes it's a, it's a, it's a winter one not, I don't think he'd like it that's a shame, they did it in red . +Sorry. +I don't think that's quite right for granddad is it? +Got red, got navy blue there as well. +Yeah, yeah, I did want . +Sorry, thank you. +what he wants. +It's all money to spend you see. +Yeah. +Twenty two pounds,twenty per cent off. +Was it? +Ten per cent off, ten per cent off. +I said ten, isn't it, right, +Yeah. +it's only two, two pound fifty in it, I mean. +Thanks very much. +Were getting a bit low actually +I all there. +No I don't need a . +, oh good. +I thought I had less than I actually had. +Right +So taken it down to the tills at the front, cos they move quicker +Thank you No they don't,change, no, I've just give them what I had. +I just got, well I get Where's the oh.. +Shall I go onto Mark's or +Yes you can go onto Mark's, I'll come to Mark's +Where is it that I find. +The the young lady. +Down isn't it? +Yeah, it's on it's . +I'll just go and look at the underwear. +Yes I +Nanny these soap and things down on the right here, in front of you +What one . +, there like what I got mum, got mum a little basket . +She showed it to me , she went up and fetch it, with the handles at the side. +Yeah. +I know she's thrilled to pieces with it. +Oh good +It's any that I can talk over it. +Alright. +I went to Chichester with Joe a couple of weekends ago. +And you . +Yeah. +It was, he said, it's so wasn't it? +Mm. +Four for a pound the gent's handkerchief coloured or white. +Chichester's a nice town isn't it? +Yes, that's where I was at college . +Got a battle cross in the middle of it. +That's right. +Do it, what's the battle cross for do you know? +No one seems to know why it's called the battle cross. +. +Somebody asked me years after I'd been to college if it was still there. +Oh it's still there now. +Yes, I know it's still there now, but I mean er,. +It's been there a very long time, cos that man was old who asked me, you, you know it was an old man he said that, and I was quite young, he said er, er is that cross still there in, in Chichester, I said yes, it's still there . +Funny isn't it , funny building. +Yes, and er there is a when we were there cos a good town, and I +Now I'm looking for something for Penny, which isn't very expensive but nice, you know. +Yeah. +She gave me a lovely book on musical composer's last year which must have cost her a bomb. +Yeah. +Can't quite rise to that . +Which is Penny . +With red hair, bit more strawberry blonde than mine. +I always think of underwear as very useful. +Something like this would be alright, probably. +Do you know her size? +Well probably about my size, she's a bit, little bit bigger than me but not very much. +How much do you want to pay then Rachel, you've got to say that. +Well, don't know really They got some here look. +It's a wired bra you wouldn't . +No,. +They're wired. +Or something, you know, just ordinary +Well this is,. +.. +That's quite pretty. +Yeah. +It's though . +It's expensive though isn't it?something like, we got for Emma you know, a bit, but not quite so expensive maybe. +What did we buy gran, oh the +Mm. +They seemed to be about four ninety instead of little plan ones, if you're gonna have a top as well it'll be a bit more expensive, these it? +Yeah. +Four ninety nine +Yeah. +and pants to match, what about that, that's quite pretty look. +And they've got spots on. +Yeah +What are these over here,. +Yeah, that sort of thing. +That's four ninety nine look +And the pants are three? +Twelve to fourteen and there's a, that would be alright for her I should think, would it? +Yes, she's about my size so. +Yeah. +She's a big bigger than me actually. +Yeah she's a bit bigger than you I would think, twelve to fourteen would be alright I would think wouldn't you? +There's +Yeah , +white or there's cream or there's black. +Cream's lovely. +cream, yeah. +Yeah, that's very nice. +She'll like the cream. +Twelve to fourteen. +Her colour hair. +Erm definitely, twelve to fourteen in the . +How about that?. +That'll be fine , mm. +Ok. +Yeah. +Right, here you are then, put it in. +They've got some little boxes, gift boxes over there. +Have they?. +. +I think there might be something at home nan. +. +Well actually we wouldn't need a very big one would we? +No, you'd need a small one. +Medium, ninety nine P. +It's just that, these are the medium . +These are the medium . +Make up like that, look. +That's plenty big enough though isn't it? +Yeah. +I expect we've got something at home smaller . +Let's leave it , you might get one in the village any way if you want one. +Oh look this is . +If you go upstairs in there. +Yes. +One little box. +They've only got medium and large so . +No, they're a bit big , thank you . +Bye, bye. +I thought she was gonna, trying to get by Thank you. +You not . +Yes. +I mean I, it's not I'll give you some money when I get home alright Quite difficult now, I try and think of something I haven't given her before. +. +Yeah. +I've been trying to get some indoor fireworks and I can't get any, I thought it'll be just some. +One of these? +The one that's got the handle that goes inside, you know, it changes round, are they on there? +There definitely here, you've seen them, you've seen them. +I saw them here last time when I looked at them. +sold out of them. +. +What colour is it mum? +White it was white and red +They vary , they vary +What are they? +That's yours, that type. +I've looked every where. +No. +No, no, it's like a roller . +. +Were out of stock at the moment I'm afraid, when we do have them in, there twelve pounds, twenty five. +Good grief. +A lot of money . +Will be having them in again? +We will be having ok. +How strange they doesn't have them, that was only a week or two . +I what, I do know a bit about them that was the grapefruit scoop. +Erm. +That's it, isn't it? +yeah but they might have a little one here,. +They might have a little one +That's it, it's a melon balls, that sort of thing. +Melon, yeah. +Ask the girl I can't see it. +Do you have any of the peeler's, they have a peeler one end and a knife the other, interchanging by the handle, I've seen them here before. +A grater/peeler one end and a, and an ordinary knife the other,, I mean if, if it have to candle over the top, you had them +Erm +No I haven't heard of that one, I'll go and see about that one. +These are quite nice. +Yes, aren't they sweet? +I like that pop one. +. +Ah. +I like that, with colours on it like. +Oh they wouldn't be any good for us but it might +That sort I'll be alright . +Yeah, quite nice. +Like the shoe. +Aren't they lovely, aren't they unusual? +What are they for? +Back door mat. +No smoking beyond this bush. +I see, yeah. +Nice little perfume in it? +Yeah, +Do you want to put that in here? +Yes, I think that's a good idea. +A glass +Didn't know you wanted one. +You want a drink of hot milk? +I'll have water please +No, no thanks, I'll have . +Wow. +There's some more I think you've got mum's . +Any one know where Richards gone? +He's gone football or something you know. +Where was he this morning? +He'd gone to get those tickets. +What tickets? +Oh, photo's, he should of gone to get photo's should of think. +I don't know +I think this morning. +Who's that? +, take some photographs of car parks, should of been there weeks ago and she and you have to be ready for, she should have been in this week how he's going to get them to do that, there's a train, there's a er few hours service or what, it's gonna cost a bomb And he'll probably end up paying for it cos he I don't know whether he's doing it or not, it's what he should of been doing. +Well be seems to have understood a little bit more about life, by, it's slipping away from him. +How hard it is yeah. +Is he still . +I saw that film . +girl or something. +He's no he's been back at work,off now, he's what +. +Mm, I think he's erm, they went to Canada or South America for there summer holidays about October. +Had a wonderful time. +Yeah. +. +Yeah. +You can't hear a thing, deaf as the, deaf as a post, and doesn't wear any thing, I feel it's very one side conversation because he, he says all the talking and they can't muck in almost unbearable, cos she likes to talk a lot to and she couldn't get a word in because +. +couldn't hear a word . +And how many mum +I'd much . +smoke . +We've didn't we +Only one. +or is this . +there wasn't much hassle +Is it only one . +Do you want a bit more? +Alan a bit more? +No thanks +Got . +not doing to badly at all today digged it up well Wonder what Lynn's doing, getting up. +might be. +. +. +There're all be tired . +It's . +it's about er seven, six o'clock in the morning. +In the morning. +I enjoyed that . +Mm. +. +Yes, cos it's, it's . +in the middle of the morning our Jack never and erm, say, all they , it was awful he going on between us between us it was awful +Everything all right? +It's nice. +Do you want any more?. +, that oh dear, you have to take this stuff with water it says, it is a horror one so I bought us some chocolate eclairs, have you got them? +Sure go and get one for you? +It's alright. +Reg will go. +Thank you,chocolate eclair. +No idea there,a cake somewhere. +Hovering in the ladies bag. +I bought Jane that flower. +That's pretty isn't it? +Isn't that pretty? +Yeah. +That's got . +Yeah, sure is. +Sure is, wouldn't you take them? +Lovely colour, rich isn't it? +Colour, yeah. +Yeah, rich colour I was having this year very well. +No need to put out in the, in the garden there, oh we've had to . +I'll have to bring that . +Thank you. +It's alright. +Put them there, but forgot to do a with them, so instead of re-potting them and +Do you have to do +I put a . +Are you sure your wrist all right? +She bleeds easily. +Mm. +Bit of a . +Not like aunt Bea is she? +Mm, not like aunt Bea? +No, quite in fact with glasses and false teeth and hearing aid and and crutches +And that +no glasses, no hearing aid, no +. +. +False teeth . +And a hundred. +yeah. +I wonder, I must be looking at on her +Or being chased by Red Indians . +Yeah, shot in the behind by an arrow. +Did she get for her Indians. +Yeah +Yeah, one shot. +Shut in the box. +Shut in the box. +Barry didn't believe me,the scars. +So she lifted up her skirt . +What got me is, when we went out to this, this shopping mall, where we were, when we go to have this brunch, she was in . +. +I said what. +When she got there she asked the manager and she said I want a table where all these people can sit . +All my relations can sit,. +There from England, I want the best for them . +And I'll pay. +is a laugh. +There was about twelve or thirteen of us there. +Oh dear. +There's everybody, er, er Kathy was in an up roar. +. +Getting enough tables there together for us all to all sit together, you can imagine can't you? +Mm. +It had to be done and it was done too. +They all sat in one table. +They were I suppose. +Oh yes, they knew her, cos it somewhere quite near her. +Yeah. +Her apartment was, she would pop in, pop in every morning. +They'd half shift themselves . +They . +I can't remember what we had thought, I can't. +I can't remember, not a clue, all the people in the apartment has been invite . +and she's so coherent. +Yes. +. +. +I've never heard of her being ill, have you? +No. +But she likes everybody weight on her though finger. +Yeah. +And she'd worn herself out,. +marry a rich husband, captain went for his niece, his nephew, she was . +. +Does it . +Oh we know she was. +Dad couldn't bear her .. +Where they? +Yes +Did you know much about her then? +It's a shame . +Why, I, I, saw her once, I, I got one picture out there, you had us coming down the stairs, +. +quarters, that's where I can remember her in. +Where is, yeah she was there, did she come over then? +That point in time, she had gone to the, the States and then she come back. +Oh yeah she come back . +She was on a, on a, on trip, oh and then she called on you. +She called on us +Yeah. +and she was with the, +Er she had left her husband and was with this +her nephew, oh I can imagine her . +, yes, in those days it was absolutely taboo, you know to have any , I have been there you know. +Dreadful yeah. +. +Yes. +. +No, from what I said this morning I meant not being there, without realising that +What's that? +The . +I'll explain it to you later . +. +I'll explain it to you later. +But, er, don't , I'd rather not know why. +Oh dear get rid of all this. +What are you doing? +Oh no, no. +No, no we can't hear it till the end. +You'll hear when it's finished. +Yeah. +But, mum will you like some and some . +back to the car and I said no, Rachel take it back and she said oh you'll make it, go on in,. +Go and get some tights. +Some tights then. +And I saw your mother and I was going on saying all your virtues and how she's been a good girl, how does that, how er, how erm self discipline she was and all this is on the tape +Don't worry. +Oh again now +Reference there, who is, mm Where is Richard? +I don't know, I think mum said he's out. +Who was the lady you were talking to who you knew? +She lives in Bigerry Lane, behind us behind us. +Oh. +And she's got two boys there . +Oh. +And erm, I didn't know they came to orchestra, perhaps they've only just joined. +Didn't know her at all. +I do, she's a child mind. +Oh is she? +And I often see her walking past with the children on the way to pick up others from the school. +With the bike? +No not with the bike +Oh. +She's usually got a pushchair if I remember. +Oh no, I don't, I don't think I remember. +Alright. +She reminds me of . +Yes, a little +How long you are you both . +Yes, it's erm, they came on stage, I think it would be good for and then they when coming to New Zealand yeah,the whole . +Where were they . +It was, no were staying with mum. +Yeah. +Gonna stay over night with her, Tuesday night. +How long is it since you've seen . +Three and a half years, three, four years . +. +Longer. +. +Three and a half years. +Oh she met +Yeah. +she likes it down there. +Yes they love it,. +. +. +Well they've . +You see. +Yes. +Something like that, yeah, I mean they do . +Yeah, they have to, they have to stay there three years to get citizenship, now they've got duel citizenship, and he won't go he back . +Ready to go back. +Mm, should think they were, they love it. +Totally different +Yeah,. +. +No, were, were staying put, because I think that while mum won't . +. +Yeah. +We should go down I think Rachel and I as before, and +. +she finishes on the +Thirty. +thirty. +. +Oh that's why I . +. +Richard was supposed to remind me. +. +So we might go down that weekend for Rachel and then after Christmas +. +we've both got a week off, and we thought we'd all can go just for a couple of days +Erm. +but, erm, we shan't be there +And how long do you . +Oh, somewhere between four and six weeks . +Do you New Zealand think they have already . +. +Yeah. +Well that's right cos they were thinking of erm, mind you they've stop, they've already parted and they stopped two days in and then +Oh . +there flying . +Just like our . +And then coming to us and then +. +when they go back +. +Stop in Tokyo for three or four days, so erm, before they go on home, so it really is a +Got a . +Yes, two boys and a growing +. +Oh lovely. +What . +I think they'd always sort of wanted to go and explore, yes, and it seemed the ideal time, the boys were just about school age, erm, sort of you could well . +I have . +I was just looking to see if I could see those two boys, see what there names, because +Paul and Richard. +yes, that's right clarinet's, and string clarinet. +Mm. +Murphy, that's it and , Richard Murphy, that's right, her names Murphy. +Don't know whether Sally still goes she's, I think she's gone to university now. +Yes, if she . +No the other one might though. +, she's flute wasn't she? +Yeah, she's not there . +No, she's not there , no,not often . +What about erm what's her name, the other one from my school plays the oboe +Did she?. +oh no, the clarinet lady,. +Yeah +No, that's not the oboe here she is there, +now which one is she? +Where are they? +In the centre, at the back. +No, it's not one of those it's not all of them though, look there's a whole be more than that won't there? +There are three one on there, and that boys playing one, no he hasn't got one I shouldn't think, unless the boys are . +There's four, there she is. +Always smells funny in here just the colour we need isn't it? +somebody farts in assembly. +No I think they did so dull and boring I think I've gotta fart! +was you! +Hi +Hi +Hi +Hi +today. +Oh right! +It'll be +Sorry! +It's alright everybody does it. +That's a bad thing +You've got to have a dream if you don't have a dream how you gonna have a dream come true do da da da +You're mad you two! +What else can we sing er +erm I don't know. +Er let's see er Aga doo doo doo +No I'm not! +push pineapple, drink coffee +I'll come back in a minute okay but don't go in without me. +It's cannelloni today and er +What you saying? +It's Italian pasta dish. +Oh that's healthy! +What you having? +Hello +I'll have broccoli with it but +I thought it had it in it +broccoli in it? +Yeah I that green stuff inside. +That's spinach. +Wh w oh that's ginger bread these are I think so. +Urgh ! +I like that it's nice. +for later. +Hey so what's the matter with it? +I don't know +Alright that's pretty much +Yeah. +How exciting! +! +stripes. +Don't like the look, never mind! +broken a chair +Is it? +Oh well! +Don't you +Perhaps she's got another hospital appointment or something. +No she didn't have +The English thing is separate. +Yeah ginger bread mm. +is separate innit? +No quite big bits in it too he's a funny man, that man isn't he? +He said you can get them in France. +Alright yeah. +Let's send to them. +mean, big brown eyes. +No he hasn't. +Where's he gone? +Oh! +like somebody I could mention Where is everyone today, there's so few people aren't there? +Yeah. +They're what? +They're so few people. +Yeah. +Don't suppose we know where they are. +They sit oh there's Andrew and Beeper Oh got a smelly, grotty ! +Thank you I think we all should make a pact. +an I tell you +hold this then +Okay,an look look! +Hold that one +What you gonna say? +Erm I think we ought to make a pact not to blame each other if we copy the answers on th kind of thing +What are you talking about? +In biology if we copy each others answers and not to blame o each other when we get them wrong. +Yeah okay. +Okay, hereby make a pact. +! +Here. +Might as well. +We're making a pact now, okay? +Alright, how do you do that? +There I hereby make a pact that I will not blame Joe for anything I copy off her in biology. +Right then I'll do that one. +ha . +Why aren't you saying your bit? +Okay, okay yeah I won't blame any of my friends same here. +In biology. +Here, here. +How do you do that? +What? +Don't worry. +Better that I don't that I don't be proud better live in harmony. +Have you got down the back? +String bow you mean? +Yeah. +Don't go anywhere without my violin. +Yeah. +Yes. +You're not playing in the carol concert are you? +No If you want salad instead of Christmas lunch you have to sign comme e sta +Sorry? +Comme e sta +I don't know. +Have you been to that fifty one +Sorry? +the concert . +. +No Jane. +What's the boy doing? +Christmas lunch on Thursday or Monday. +Oh quite fancy that actually. +Oh you're not having Christmas lunch. +Christmas lunch is . +Some of it +I just thought +and you make but not all of it. +Think they are but it might not be we could ask they'll probably be the vegetarian Christmas lunch as well won't there? +I . +Okay? +Yeah. +Erm a bit weird! +Mm? +How many people are you getting to do this thing? +How many people am I am I what? +Are they in this thing? +I don't know oh cos I don't know, I think so a lot noisier than usual in here. +No so many people +Sorry? +first. +If you see it hanging down, tell me. +there you go. +Want to see if I can spot Miss and Victor. +Oh yeah eighty and she's sort of sixty three, no that's a bit early isn't it? +Seventy one. +No if she's about forty now she's fifty Yeah. +yeah so she'd have been twenty +and she'd have been +in nineteen seventy. +That's Mrs ? +Yeah she's was +She'd have been +She was quite to us. +How old twenty +Mrs ! +Oh yeah +Mrs Mrs +When she was about twenty. +Mrs ! +Oh gosh she looked really different! +Mrs about +I didn't recognise her. +I did. +My mum had her hair like that. +So did my mum ha ha! +Wow this is look at this look ! +What? +No she looks the same. +Still +Who else? +Er +Working out how old +there +she would have been +if she was twenty then +To be forty she'd have had to have been born in the nineteen seventies +About twenty nine +so you're looking for them be eighty fives +Don't think +aren't you? +sixty five we're looking for +Why? +Because that's when she'd have been fifteen. +Oh yeah I mean she would have been born in the forties wouldn't she not seventies! +I was born in the seventies she might be in this one. +Then she's always late, isn't she, so she probably wouldn't. +Yeah probably about sixty five expect there some where there in tra and she said she was in the fourth year, didn't she? +Yeah ar yeah. +These must be the sixth formers in the dresses. +Yeah probably. +Their hairs th the hairstyles are really funny! +Yeah. +Look at these hairstyles! +Look at that one! +Yeah look at that one !maybe we've miscalculated. +That might be later might'n it? +Might be earlier ! +There's a sixty one. +What staff have left and +They must be the ones in the white blouses then. +Yeah mm mm. +It's funny isn't it, you don't imagine people with hair like that! +It's fifty four. +She was a bit of a tart, weren't she? +Yeah. +and this is only +there's the bandstand, Miss . +Oh yeah, while she was a teacher then,I say ! +I say! +Green oh Mrs . +Oh she might be in an eighty one. +Eighty one as a pupil? +Mm in the sixth form. +Eighty one? +Or in eighty. +No way! +No way ! +Oh yeah well maybe a bit before that these are the eighties. +Where was Do you reckon Miss then? +Mm? +Do you reckon polio then? +Probably. +I thought she knew, she had when she was a child. +Did she? +I don't know then. +Mm mm Miss ! +No it must have been before nineteen eighty. +I reckon it was seventy five to seventy nine. +I reckon seventy one then. +I dunno know. +Too strenuous for me! +Denise . +Sorry? +They're very early aren't they? +Twe twenty seven. +Fifty seven. +Sorry? +Fifty seven, if she was born in forty seven, she'd be forty seven she'd be forty forty four now +Yeah. +and if she was +about sixty something. +No cos she'd have been twenty then wouldn't she almost +No no not in sixty +No. +one. +Oh yeah sixty one. +There was sixty one. +How old would she have been in sixty one? +Forty forty two, forty one, twenty nine three seventeen six +Me, I was fine thank you! +What have you +It's a bit. +don't look like it . +Should I not ask? +If you want . +Right +Here we are. +Mm. +Mm. +we've finished the last, we've finished the last one. +. +Yeah. +Was it nice?. +Mm, ok those peculiar people. +Who is? +Those wondering round in a daze and being peculiar. +Oh, sorry +Who was that too. +I'm sorry. +. +that's . +What? +. +Ooh very motional . +Erm, I believe that the toilet roll off, that's what I usually do. +. +Yeah, it shows up more. +What you talking about? +. +. +Solved the problem, don't worry. +You get if you use the toilet roll? +Sorry? +. +Why do you want it to glow, it'll show more if it glowed. +It's fashionable. +It is fashionable . +Well you . +Mm, no. +Well . +It's French next. +I haven't got French next. +I hate French. +Why? +Cos I have to speak to her. +about a conversation then? +What about it, that's worse isn't it? +Yeah, well it's the same thing. +I mean you don't . +But not to her. +No,. +Er not recently no. +No. +You come back in here or not? +Yeah. +Yeah. +Well now,. +Yeah. +Yeah.. +Er, what is it? +. +Where is she?. +It's at erm, Wembley isn't it? +I can't remember . +Who's go is it? +What you go . +Er . +I need that one as well. +Mm. +I need that one as well. +And that one? +Hold on, hold on +I picked up what she put down. +No, that's right. +That is right. +I put a card down . +Sure. +Yeah. +Oh. +No, I did pick it up. +I believe you. +I thought Louise was being very obliging. +I know, I thought I was a bit. +I put two on Rachel's +Oh Rachel, she's won every game so far. +We've only played one. +No,. +. +It wasn't yesterday, it was ages ago. +Was it? +Mm. +I . +. +No, it wasn't this week. +I have to give you a . +You sure?. +. +. +a cab . +. +quite easily . +There all . +So, show me yours otherwise I might not put something down. +. +No, don't. +that's, that's +Oh no . +don't need that. +How'd you know, it's your go isn't it? +Your go. +It's my go, oh. + +which is trying to accumulate a record of how the English language is used in everyday context, like lectures, like in broadcasts, like in people's homes and so forth. +Now I must ask you, I hope you don't mind me recording this thing. +Does anybody not, does anybody object to me recording the lecture? +Informed Consent and all that kind of thing. +Erm now it says it says about Informed Consent forms. +Now because there are too many of you to fit on the form, is it okay if like one person signs it on behalf of a group an and that's okay cos they want informed con who who who wan who wants to sign a form and be part of the British National Corpus? +Okay go on, let's let's give it to yeah. +Mhm, right, now that's that's that bit over with. +It's interesting actually that it says on all the outsides of all the tapes Aston Business School so I'd just like to say for the benefit of the tape recorder and the British National Corpus, this is where the Business School ends and this is where Psychology takes over. +We are a University within a University. +Now, on the handout is says child sex abuse and that's what we g we're going to be dealing with today. +Erm just to introduce the subject. +First of all I suspect most of you are familiar with Freud and the infantile seduction theory and the way in which, pardon? +Nev never heard of it, alright. +Well, very briefly, the ideas was Freud in his early practice was getting stories from his patients that they had somehow been sexually interfered with or abused or something of the kind when they were very young, often by an older male friend of the family, a relative, or even their father and initially Freud thought these reminiscences were literally true. +Subsequently he changed his mind, possibly in relation to pressure from outside, possibly in an attempt to make psychoanalysis more acceptable, possibly because he couldn't come to terms with the fact himself and he then came round to the point of view that these were fantasised seductions as he called them. +He called them seductions, interestingly enough, rather than child sex abuse, as we would perhaps now call it. +So erm seduction's one of these words that implies more consensual type activity, implies that it's sort of y'know kind of candle light and soft music and firelight and all that kind of thing but which it probably wasn't in most cases. +Now erm I suppose more recently coming up the present, coming away from nineteenth century Vienna into erm I suppose really I suppose the nineteen seventies, nineteen eighties, people became much more interested in the issue of child sex abuse again and this wasn't really because of any great developments in clinical psychology or psychiatry. +It the impetus came I think largely from feminism and it was perhaps a way of of y'know kind of erm because there was a great deal of interest, particularly in the seventies, in cataloguing and understanding the various ways in which women were oppressed and this is one of the things came to light and often through things like consciousness raising groups. +It came to light that er a great many of the members, a great many of the people who talked about their early experiences reported some sort of abusive experience, either y'know er quite a short one that went on over many many years you know that er if it was some relative or friend of the family they were likely to have been abused for quite a long time in some cases. +So that's mainly where the impetus came from and this gradually fed through into more academic forms of research, virtually fed through into popular consciousness so that erm you end up with, particularly in the late eighties early nineties, erm a great deal of interest in the media, a great deal of interest among professionals in s child sex abuse and child abuse generally. +Maybe erm maybe our culture has particular metaphors, particular ways of understanding ways of human distress and it seems that very often when people have a rather non-specific distress these days, I mean it's very common to find that erm counsellors, professionals, will be looking in into people's backgrounds, looking into people's backgrounds for evidence of child sex abuse. +People didn't use to do that twenty thirty forty years ago so erm child sex abuse is very much on the agenda, both of professionals and also on the agenda of people suffering from sort of distress for which they are receiving professional help because um that's one of the things which um I think more nowadays than before you find people encouraged to look for. +Going back, we're jumping back and forth in history, this is all sort of fairly mickey mouse history really, it's just erm isolated observations and bits of information. +Going back in history, however, gives us some idea of the often contentious and problematic relationships between childhood and sexuality. +If you go back erm or let's go back to the second half of the seventeenth century, that's always a good time to go to erm when erm well it was just after the English revolution, just after the English civil war, the Charles the First had been executed. +Around about a bit later they er Charles the Second was er came down out of his oak tree and climbed on to the throne and round about that time you found the childhood of erm childhood of Robert Walpole who was a famous politician in well first half of the eighteenth century. +It was said that um when he was a baby his nurse used to masturbate him in the cradle t to calm him to stop him crying and er apparently this was at that time, so it was believed, quite a common way of of keeping infants quiet. +Erm you sort of ah if you were in charge of infu infants you you played with their genitals. +In the nineteenth century this all changed because opiates became much more widely and cheaply available so er babies were dosed with paregoric to stop them crying erm er and subsequently in the twentieth century that stopped and we do other things now. +But um also in the eighteen century, the eighteenth century is quite interesting because of the way in which sexuality was conceptualised then. +In the eighteenth century in France you have people writing like the Marquis de Sade er in this country people like John Wit Wilmotold of Rochester. +Erm we have a we have erm a vision of sexuality which is often quite frankly abusive. +Erm, it's quite frankly about abusing women and it's often the case that in the eighteenth century one's sexuality was considered to begin much earlier than we do now. +That is, people writing in the eighteenth century that th you know um it was appropriate for kids to be introduced to sex when they were around y'know sort of seven or eight or something in some cases. +Um, usually these kinds of writings were written by y'know kind of upper class white heterosexual men erm so er you can see where that kind of prospective was coming from, but er nevertheless these kinds of views were being expressed around about that time. +That's why, at the beginning of the nineteenth century, quite a fundamental shift in how we conceptualise masculinity and femininity seemed to take place. +At the beginning of the nineteenth century you get people like Jane Austen writing, writing about heroines with minds of their own, women who can actually think and talk and do all sorts of things that very often in literature women hadn't been conceptualised as doing before. +Again, if you go back before about eighteen hundred, if you look at er if you look at art, you find that painters paint things entitled The Rape of Europa, The Rape of , The Rape of whoever it is and if you look at these pictures it's just people lounging around with not very many clothes on. +There's no sense in that that er it's a crime of violence going on. +It's really I suppose only in the y'know nineteenth century that the perspective starts to shift, the perspective starts to shift towards understanding rape as a crime of violence. +So that erm perhaps puts erm some of sexuality in a little bit of a historical context erm and um I suppose coming into the nineteenth century though, nineteenth century, particularly the second half of the nineteenth century, in large cities it was notorious for child prostitution for um a whole rate of exploitative sexual practices that underlay Victorian respectability so erm all these um peculiar kinds of things seemed to be going on. +So let's see. +Erm, just to erm veer back on to the on to the handout for the moment. +Erm on the first bit of the handout I've stuck a couple of definitions of child sex abuse on, just to um give you a little bit of context an and er give you some idea of the sorts of things that people have the sorts of ways in which people are defining this phenomenon nowadays. +Now um I suppose in that context um one of the things that makes this perhaps rather difficult to understand is the way in which y'know kind of when you look at children playing, when you talk to children, they'll often express a good deal of curiosity about sexuality um both to each-other and to to adults. +Er they'll ask questions about sex, they'll ask questions about parts of the body er sometimes kids aren't exactly au fait with the social niceties and taboos so they'll say totally inappropriate things in front of in front of elderly relatives who are deeply shocked and um all that kind of thing. +Um nevertheless er there's a fundamental distinction made by most authors that to include children, to include apparently emotionally immature people, in sexual relationships as you would with adults is is fundamentally abusive. +Erm, that is kids may express curiosity, kids may even be doing things that imply they're getting some sort of pleasure out of their bodies y'know they may be, as we used to call it when I was a child, playing with themselves, um they may be erm doing various things that er that give them some sort of bodily pleasure. +Nevertheless, there's a fundamental distinction made by most authors that um y'know kind of up to a certain age involving kids in sexual relations with adults is abusive because of the discrepancy in power, because of the discrepancy in physical size, because of a whole range of social discrepancies. +That is um kids are generally speaking encouraged to obey adults. +Kids are generally speaking um encouraged not to refuse what adults are doing to them. +Er this can work er to everybody's advantage when you're talking about medical procedures, when you're talking about giving people injections a encouraging people to eat their greens and er take cod liver oil and all these things which adults believe are are quite good and useful things. +So it's very very easy in that context for adults to exploit children's compliance and er it's easy for kids to be able to not refuse adults' advances and I suppose that's why there's this business about erm y'know it's it's not possible for kids to give informed consent to sex. +That's why er many authors insist on that aspect of child sex abuse, that erm apparent consent or even y'know when it seems that the child is expressing some curiosity about that these activities, nevertheless it's abusive. +That's the um general er consensus in most of the things I've read in trying to find out stuff for this lecture. +Erm another thing comes in. +How do we conceptualise children's sensual activity? +There are some people erm it was Liz Hall and Siobahn Lloyd who wrote a book called Surviving Child Sex Abuse and er they reckon that the construct of sexuality is something that's invented by adults. +It's not something that kids are really privy to. +If kids do things with their body that give them physical pleasure, that's more sensuality rather than sexuality. +Sexuality is something that adults do. +If you say, as sometimes judges in Court cases do, sometimes child abusers do, oh she led me on, she was eager and willing, oh she erm, well judges don't actually say it in the first person, do they, usually? +Not in public anyway. +Erm but er those those kinds of things mean that, according to Hall and Lloyd, adults are projecting their notions of sexuality on the children. +Now, another thing that erm one should bear in mind I suppose in talking about child sex abuse, is the way a great many of terms are contentious. +If somebody's been abused erm typically in the past they were referred to as victims. +More recently, of course, there's been a lot of controversy about the term victim. +Does it imply passivity, does it imply helplessness, so sometimes people talk about survivors. +Now erm on the other hand, the experience of being abused may not give one a very strong sense of one's own survival. +Er somebody said to me about her childhood experiences, well I didn't really survive them, I'm just here still because I didn't die. +Y'know so she didn't necessarily have a strong sense of y'know coping and surviving and er using strategies which helped her get through it. +She was just there because she hadn't er hadn't passed away. +Erm so erm I suppose the business of victims as survivors is a conflict, a controversy, which you might see in reading about this topic, and some people don't use the term victims for that reason. +Um how do we find out how on earth, how much, how much this kind of activity goes on? +Well of course it's very difficult. +It's difficult for various reasons. +First of all because we're dealing with a socially taboo thing. +Second of all because we're dealing with a topic which people may not want to talk about, may not erm er want to answer questions on to a market researcher, for obvious reasons. +Erm for another reasons, which we shall get on to a bit later, there may be a great deal of confusion, er memories may not be clear or well formed, um people, according to some theories and ideas, people may be under-reporting because um y'know it helps them maintain their eq equilibrium a bit better. +It's helps them cope with the experience if they if they if they don't define it as abusive. +So, for all these reasons, and more, which I'm sure you can think of, it's very difficult to define exactly how much it goes on and er and what exactly er the abuse involves. +Nevertheless, as I've detailed on the handout, there are some pieces of survey evidence available as to what the extent of various practices are, apparently. +Again, according to self reports from people who've actually been abused in this way. +For example there was a survey by West which was published in eighty five. +There was um a survey in San Francisco by Russell which was published in 1983. +There was some stuff by Baker and Duncan in eighty five and in a book by Olive Stephenson called Child Sex Abuse. +Um she looked for um she looked at er a survey of two thousand odd adults that had been conducted in this country. +That survey was quite methodologically sound in that the sampling procedure was er designed so as to make it as representative as possible of the U K population. +Um and erm well anyway the frequencies and er various kind of frequencies of various kinds of activity are mentioned on the handout so you can er you can see that for yourself. +It's not much point me just sort of reciting the percentages. +Um now, okay, so there are some problems in getting a handle on exactly how much of these kinds of activities go on and whom they affect. +There are also some problems in understanding the effects on people. +Now um I've stuck in some data from the West study about um what sorts of feelings people reported themselves as having. +Pity amusement seventy one percent, anger sixty nine percent etcetera etcetera. +Now um these percentages don't add up to a hundred. +I mean individuals erm participating in this study could well indicate several responses. +It's also the case that erm these, don't forget, are self-reports so what people were actually suffering um may be rather different possibly. +It's also the case that, as I was saying earlier, people may be erm may be may be attributing. +It's an ex exercise in their atr attribution y'know if you feel angry now and you attribute it to some abusive incident which you may remember from your childhood um that's er that's an accomplishment. +It er it's difficult to tell y'know whether people are under attributing or over attributing. +Now, some of the more radical theorists on child abuse would say that generally speaking people people under remember people under report people under attribute. +That is, people tend to forget either in a motivated way, or accidentally, people will tend to minimise or trivialise the abuse to which they've been subject in some cases because maybe saying that you've been sexually abused as a child and that is why you're so screwed up at the moment um that's not necessarily a very self-benefiting thing to say. +It's much easier to say something along the lines of, oh he was only a pathetic old flasher, or something like that. +It kind of makes the problem more copable with apparently um. +Ah equally um, just to go off at a tangent a bit, um there're a number of more radical theorists, in particular the um in the Bonnie Burstow book Radical Feminist Therapy, would say that um rather like with other forms of sexual crime, the people who've been victimised, people who've survived, are often inclined to say something along the lines of mm y'know did i did I bring it on myself kind of kind of feeling. +That is um in Burstow's clinical practice she reckons that um sometimes people say something along the lines of well well um perhaps it was my fault, I was flirting with him, and things like that it and these are people who maybe have been about five or six when the abuse has happened and so y'know do five or six year olds flirt? +I suspect not but erm y'know sometimes it is conceptualised, even by the people who've been victimised as a sort of two way process as as though they are partly responsible. +Um, now may be, according to Burstow, this is a sort of self-serving thing as well because it's a way of saying, if you just say that that say your father sexually abused you for no good reason, that's a very frightening thing to say. +It calls his integrity into question in a really big way, it also by implication calls into question the integrity of a lot of other men you might come across. +So um it's much I suppose it makes the world a slightly safer place if you can say it was to do with something that you did because it brings the world slightly back under your control, maybe. +It means that the world is a slightly is a slightly safer place because if you don't do this, if you don't flirt, then it won't happen. +Well, that's not necessarily er an accurate way of understanding sex abuse but nevertheless it can it can perhaps help people restore their equilibrium a bit. +So this business of of understanding how it happened from the, in inverted commas, victim's point of view um this business of understanding the subsequent effects, this business of understanding the extent, ah are all enormously problematic and um it's one of these things I wouldn't particularly like to have to design a survey of because it's absolutely fraught with difficulty but nevertheless some some attempts have been made um as I have indicated. +Erm now erm as regards when it happens to people erm, again going back to this B B C Childwatch Survey um of girls sixty percent reported that the first incident happened when they were ten, forty percent of boys reported the first incident occurred when they were under ten so it seems, if you look at the sort of average, averages are quite deceptive in this area but nevertheless if you look at the average um it seems to happen slightly earlier for girls than for boys. +Now erm I suppose also um it's worth bearing in mind that sex abuse can occur right across the right across the lifespan. +Usually with people, when people get to about sixteen or eighteen, it's it's not called child sex abuse any more. +It's called rape, it's called indecent assault, it's it's um er understood in the same way that sex crimes against adults are understood and erm if you look at um y'know kind of er very young kinds um according to some people called Daley and Wilson, I can't remember whether I've mentioned these on the handout but I've I've got some notes here. +The first year of life is enormously dangerous in countries where the statistics are being collected. +It seems that in the first year of life you're more likely than at any other time in your life to die at the hands of somebody else. +Um, if you look at erm who's bringing people up, again according to Daley and Wilson, I think this is where the information originated, in Canada where they've looked at um looked at some statistics on this, if you're being brought up by step-parents you're seventy times more at risk than if you're being brought up by your as it were biological parents. +So all those myths about the wicked step- father, the wicked step-mother and so forth seem almost to be true in this respect. +So um again this is um looking at er y'know people when they're very young y'know sort of one year old, two years old or so. +So it's looking at the very beginning bit of childhood. +Now, what else have we got? +Um I've got some stuff on the handout about some of the stuff that's been done about what's what happens and how long it goes on for. +Now again this is one of the things we don't really know um very much about. +Er I suppose as I've indicated, according to one study in 1978, twenty five percent of abuse ind involved one incident erm however some abuse was very much more long term, if you can imagine twenty five percent involved one incident but the average duration of abuse was three years. +You're talking about some forms of abuse which went on for a very very long time indeed to pull the average up like that. +So again it's very difficult to describe an average case er so y'know it's one of these things that er seems to vary enormously in different circumstances. +Um interestingly enough, in the studies I'm mentioning here, erm it seems that um in many cases the abusers were quite effective in manipulating the situation so as to be able to get away with it, at least at the time. +That is um I suppose um you could er successfully if you were an abuser successfully deceive children. +Um one of the things that you sometimes find is that the abuse is characterised is something special, something secret, something that you shouldn't tell anybody else about because it's our secret and you know what happens to people who tell secrets? +Yes, of course, um er their heads fall off or something like y'know in much the same way as chil people frighten children with with with bogies and with unlikely punishments in the same way as compliance is often enforced on children. +One of the reasons I think why abuse is very easily erm got away with by people is that um they're able to bring into play a lot of these a lot of these discourses with which we talk to children to make them behave, to make them er compliant. +It's also the case I suppose that erm from the point of view of a child, thinking back to my own childhood, a lot of contact with grown-ups was was enormously traumatic and yet was considered by the grown-ups to be entirely legitimate. +Getting taken to the doctors and getting needles stuck in you erm things like um being fed cod liver oil, things like being hit for doing things which I thought were quite legitimate like pruning my mother's geraniums and stuff like that. +Um y'know all these things were not very pleasant and yet you're used as a child, you're used as a child to have grown-ups um be able to inflict things on you. +I'm glad I'm grown-up now actually because er y'know it's one of my great pleasures in life to wake up in the mornings and think great I'm grown-up, I don't have to go to school and er and I don't have to live with my parents and er things are much better now than they were say sort of y'know twenty years ago or so, er giving away my age there. +Erm so erm maybe because of the continuity between some forms of abusive sexual practice and erm what we expect of kids, what we train kids to do anyway um it means that abuse is easier to get away with. +Now, thinking about um the people who do the abusing for a minute. +Um I know er at the in the clinic and all that kind of thing, I mean goes on about these people quite a bit. +Um it's interesting that when you look at people who have abused children they often will say things not only about the willingness of their victims, in inverted commas, but also about the fact oh she never said no, erm as the title of this magazine article I've got here is. +Um y'know er there are ways in which ch abusers will characterise their activity as sort of fundamentally loving and gentle. +Um that is here's somebody who says I was always very gentle with Clare, just caressing and stroking. +When I started to touch her in a sexual way I asked her if she liked it. +She never said no. +Physically I could tell she was experiencing pleasure. +I did it because I loved her too much . +So um sometimes the way in which abusers operate, they characterise as being somehow continuous with somehow s almost the same sort of things as as y'know kind of adult affection and love. +Um sometimes they attribute pleasure to the people they're abusing. +Sometimes they say, oh you can tell she's enjoying it. +Um now of course when they're talking about things like physiological responses, when they're talking about things like having orgasms and the like, erm this is on the part of the victims, it's not too difficult to detach these physiological responses from pleasure. +I mean they're just things that the human body does. +It's sometimes the case when you look at adult survivors of child sex abuse that erm some of these physiological responses are detached from pleasure and experienced in a very ah traumatic and very de-humanising way so that y'know kind of having orgasms isn't pleasurable sometimes for people who've been abused as children. +Erm it's also the case that, particularly when abuse is of this sort of y'know like I was just describing y'know stroking, caressing, all that kind of things um it a lot of erm in some cases very confused feelings on the part of the people who've been abused. +It means that um particularly in therapy it can be very difficult later on because things that we would ordinarily consider to be supportive like being kind, like erm y'know kind of putting a comforting arm round somebody's shoulders, like erm y'know ways in which people express support and affection for each-other ah are very very difficult for the survivor to accept because they're sort of the part of the way in which she, and it usually is a she, has been abused in the past. +So um it also means that a lot of activities which we would regard as pleasurable as adults y'know sort of intimacy, affection, sexuality. +Erm again er can be understood by the sex abuse survivor as being unpleasant, disgusting, anger-provoking, fear-provoking and so forth. +So um I suppose in that way some of these forms of abuse, particularly when they they use the they use the gestures, they use the language of affection um they're perhaps rather different from forms of abuse which are er er most obviously violent. +Erm that is, it's usual to understand hurt and pain and such like things as being consequent upon violence. +If somebody beats you up and you feel hurt and upset and it's enormously painful then you need to go to casualty afterwards erm that sort of fits the scripts y'know that's w that's that's understandable. +If somebody keeps on going abo on about how much they love you, if somebody keeps on going on about they care for you and how much they'd like you to enjoy yourself and er all that kind of thing and you subsequently feel hurt, upset, abused and need to go to casualty, that's probably a lot more difficult to understand because it doesn't fit the script. +Erm and that may be one of the way is which apparently affectionate abuse, if you can call it that, erm may be er in some ways more difficult to deal with than er than more frankly violent abuse. +So er just because it looks like seduction doesn't mean it's not abuse, I suppose that's what I'm saying in the in the in a nutshell. +Erm now erm a number of people erm, getting on t back on to the handout for a moment, er a number of people who've reported being b abused as children also report that they do try and tell people, either at the time or shortly afterwards, and this business of not being believed is quite a common report from survivors, not being believed at first. +Um, it's one of these things that erm y'know for some reason er the person they tell is apt to minimise the problem, is apt to say that the accusations are malicious, is apt to say that you must have imagined it and so on and so forth. +Erm sometimes erm it seems, at least according to the study, that um and possibly also the the Russell study, that often the abuse stops when something's done by the, in inverted commas, the victim. +That is em if nothing happens, if the survivor, if the person being abused doesn't do anything, then the abuse carries on and the abuser y'know continues to regularly perform this these acts of abuse, whatever they might be, and erm stopping it is something that er usually involves the, in inverted commas, victim, taking control of the situ well no no well not exactly taking control but trying to do something about it er making more fuss about it to other people, moving out of the house, as sometimes happens when people are adolescents. +Erm y'know those kinds of things er tend to be tend to be effective. +Erm, usually um action is prompted by well it's prompted by various things. +One is as people get older, like when they get up to about fourteen or fifteen, they start um feeling perhaps a bit more self-confident, a bit more able to do something about it. +Also, by that time you're erm often well into adolescence so I suppose the as it were the dangers of pregnancy become much more much more to the fore. +Um also by that time er perhaps with a bit more experience of the world you've got a bit more to compare it with and you've got a strong sense that this is unjust, unreasonable and that other people don't have to suffer from it. +So erm in that sense ah perhaps it's a bit easier to to take some sort of action. +Um now um getting on to the next bit of the handout erm I'll just do this next couple of paragraphs and then and then it'll be time for a break for ten minutes or so. +What erm the trauma of of er child sex abuse is concep being conceptualised very differently, even within our own century. +That is if you go back to the Kinsey sort of stuff about sexuality um you find that well I've I've stuck a quote from Kinsey et al there um that back in the 1950's there was er y'know with with ah academics like Kinsey attempting to study sexuality erm I suppose there was often er a. +I'll tell you a quick story, a quick anecdote about Kinsey. +Kinsey spent most of his early life studying the activities of the wasp. +He wasn't really a student of human behaviour until er he was his career was well developed. +Erm interestingly enough there's a report that Kinsey as a young man at college erm was approached by a friend who had this this terrible personal problem and er confessed to Kinsey that he kept feeling tempted to masturbate and he was very disturbed by this er so Kinsey and he prayed together that they would er together have the strength to give up masturbation. +Erm twenty or thirty years later Kinsey was studying human sexuality and saying things like I've stuck on the handout so erm y'know in some ways perhaps Kinsey's attitude to these things er changed. +But Kinsey's were I suppose is part of a general optimism about sexuality which was felt in academic circles through the 1950's and 1960's. +Ah the sort of things, the sort of optimism that culminated in that y'know all those Alex Comfort books, Alex Comfort Industries plc, the Joy of Sex, More Joy of Sex, Yet More Joy of Sex y'know kind of er erm y'know kind of er erm y'know kind of so much joy of sex I'm thrilled to death y'know this kind of kind of er all these things, Joy of S Joy of Safer Sex as it is now, trying to leap on the bandwagon. +Er er all this kind of thing. +This sort of optimism about sexuality that seemed to have inside it this implicit model that sexuality was a good thing, that that by erm experiencing more sexuality, more sexual pleasure, we could all be happier, nicer people, that there wasn't anything inherently wrong with sex. +That sex was inherently pleasurable and mutualistic and all that kind of stuff. +So um this attitude on the part of Kinsey er sort of fits into that ideology quite well. +It's interesting that sexuality has been problematised in the seventies and eighties and nineties most effectively by the scholarship emerging from the Women's Movement erm who've said that y'know perhaps things aren't quite as equitable as these people have supposed, er perhaps sexuality can be abusive, look at all these instances of rape, of child sex abuse etcetera, sexual harassment and all these kinds of things. +Nevertheless this sort of y'know white middle class male strand of of scholarship on sex, y'know the Kinseys, the erm alright Masters and Johnson, it was Virginia Johnson that er, nevertheless they seem to be very well in that mould, the Alex Comforts and all that kind of stuff. +Um all y'know sort of very optimistic. +We can all enjoy it eventually if we try hard enough sort of thing. +Erm but er I suppose more recently um this business of understanding sex in relation to power, in relation to the powers of the participants, has has has effectively er knocked Kinsey's notions off the agenda in the last sort of y'know fifteen years, ten years, five years, so that people are much more erm inclined to say well physical size, disparities, erm disparities in the credibility if you like of the of the perpetrator and survivor erm and all those kinds of things make er make a big difference so it's not it's not gonna be mutualistic. +It may well be inherently traumatic. +Erm now I've stuck some next things on the handout about erm some of the things I've already I've already mentioned about er abuse of children in history. +Erm then we get down to coming into the twentieth century. +Erm there's um ah the origins of the myth that you can catch V D off toilet seats I suppose you could call it. +Um around the middle years of the twentieth century there was ah a good deal of well people were spotting signs which would nowadays be taken as evidence of child sex abuse but they were giving other explanations for them. +That is um when sexually transmitted diseases turned up in children, well it must be towels, it must be toilets, it must be clothes, bed linen erm, this is where the infection's come from apparently. +This was what was said by professionals. +Um it's also the case that um particularly round about that time there was an an idea that children were not competent enough to know what had happened to them, not competent enough to know their own minds. +Possibly if they did tell you something then it was likely to be made up because children didn't know it was wrong to lie. +All those kind of things were were seemed to be ideas that were were floating around round about that time. +These are catalogued in um well I've referenced it to Bartman 1990 but you'll see more about this erm in, let me see, there's Dennis Howitt's book concerning psychology which has a chapter about erm child sex abuse in it and there's also a book that the library's got called Child Abuse Errors by Dennis Howitt as well erm which has go deals with some of these these issues and arguments too. +Um and erm that might be that's one of th some of the few things that the library's got but erm er anyway. +That's erm moving along a little bit erm there's also this business of of what I suppose in other contexts has been called blaming the victim, this business of children somehow inviting the the, if they have actually been abused, it must be because they've invited it so erm that's erm. +Now as it approaches the witching hour of um the witching hour of ten to ten I suggest we all go and run about a little bit for for ten minutes and I'll do something about some of the emotional effects and some of the therapies in the next hour for all those who're interested hello tape recorder, there'll be another hour in a minute. +Oh hello +Erm I haven't seen him yet this morning er so I'm not quite sure um he might be. +Er ah I think he was intending to come in. +I know he was off he was off sick on Tuesday er but it's I know he was hoping to come in today I know so it's worth a look +Oh right erm yeah oh right so you're doing +should there be more handouts ? +Um er excuse me,are there any more handouts in the room ? +I've got one +You got one spare? +Oh right yeah good +Er I'm afraid not no I'm sorry +D'you know if has? +Er you might try he's often fairly B P S'ish yeah erm and em if you managed to find he's always got loads of bumf about jobs in psychology and stuff like that. +Er he gets the the American Psychological Association Monitor as well which as got like jobs in the States too. +Okay then +Not that you well you may not be interested in that but y'know it's there's plenty of variety as it were yeah +only have them from about last November +Ah yeah so they're well out of date by then presumably. +yeah yeah yeah +just thought I'd ask . +Okay yeah I'll try thank you, erm my name's +Ah right yes so let me see, you were the one who said that you were getting to the S P S S stage or something were you ? +Yeah yeah well I've done it and I just want to check with you that what we've done is right and then I can er +yeah yeah and fine now I think somebody's coming to see me at eleven and then I'm teaching from twelve til two, somebody's coming to see me at two but a bit later on this afternoon or on Monday morning I can do +er Monday morning probably +Well come and find me Monday morning then +Right what do I some time at about eleven o'clock +Erm that's when it starts to get busy because there's like the there's like the eleven til three kind of kind of kind of busy time er +I've got a lecture before that +er mhm alright +Can I come at three? +Yeah because I'm doing second year abnormal from two til three so you might be able to catch me at three +So if I come, I'll come at three +Yeah yeah and sort of bring your bring your questionnaire +bring my disk +and bring your disk and we'll see what it looks like +Okay +right, okay, right +Thanks very much +Oh hello. +Yes I saw your notes yesterday um now projects and stuff like that. +I mean what what's happening? +Mhm oh right. +So let's see, you had a questionnaire last time last time +yeah +we spoke I mean how's that +right okay em are you free a bit later on this afternoon, probably around about threeish possibly? +No erm any any time any other time later on today? +No? +What about earlyish on Monday. +I'm free earlyish on Monday. +What about, is it a big hassle you getting in for nine? +No +No okay because it's as I was saying usually between sort of round about the middle of the day there's people knocking on the door all the time so if you can sort of get sort of earlier or later it's we're likely to have a y'know half an hour when I can show you to do S P S S on it. +Right +So if you bring a questionnaire and erm er we'll go through it and I'll show you sort of how to define the variable list and and y'know kind of how to enter the date and stuff, show you a give you a copy of the data file that I've got that actually works so if you just sort of follow the syntax it'll yeah so erm so that's okay. +Now are you still still interested in humour and such like things? +Yes right. +Interestingly enough I've got a book er back in my office about things like T V comedy and situation comedy and stuff like that and also y'know kind of variety sort of comedy with sketches and s y'know Two Ronnies, Monty Pythons and stuff erm would that be of any use to you if you were to borrow it? +Yeah? +So erm have you any further thoughts yourself or y'know any further things you've done or mhm +Mhm right erm so I mean what does it look like it's gonna be turning into? +Is it gonna be turning into something that looks a bit like a survey do you think? +Or is it gonna be turning into something that looks like analysis of oh right so it's like listen to yep fair enough listen to er a joke and er well I'll tell you what, can you speak up a bit so we can actually get the conversation on here because the I'm sure the British National Corpus would be interested. +Erm er so erm yeah I mean that's that's er a fair way to proceed I think y'know if if you have video tapes or tape recordings of stuff +Yeah so erm yeah so if you get that sort of thing and then you can in some way either get people to discuss or get them to fill in a questionnaire about it or something of the sort I mean that's er the format that y'know kind of er seems to work quite well for final year projects anyway er generally speaking with other stuff so er yeah that's that's do-able. +Um so it's a matter of um do you know yet really what sort of material you'll be erm you'll be using er +Well +Yeah mhm yeah I mean you may want to select some stuff that's y'know that represents different kinds of things because as I remember our conversations earlier, you were interested in er y'know sort of ideological soundness, political correctness and y'know were some things funny but sort of off-colour for other reasons erm er I'm paraphrasing it badly but er y'know I think that th s so you might want to get some stuff that's sort of ideologically sound and humorous and er some stuff that's a bit off-colour and humorous and some stuff that's erm sort of I don't know some stuff that's main stream but has got a lot of y'know if you look at something like say The Two Ronnies or something, there's a lot of there's a lot of racism and sexism in there but it's because it's sort of main stream because it's family viewing and stuff like that people tend not to think of it as problematic. +Erm y'know erm it's also erm perhaps interesting the way things have er have shifted you know in the last decade or so, like that thing that erm used to be on in the seventies, It Ain't Half Hot Mum, with um a number of people pretending to be Indians and and exhibiting all the stereotypes y'know it ain't half racist mum is probably more erm er in fact there was a book called It Ain't Half Racist Mum that er Leicester University library had er y'know going on about exactly that you know the sort of y'know racism of comedy. +Erm and er so er y'know there's all sorts of well depends on what you can find and what you think's suitable. +Um generally speaking you know if you you might want to use sort of fairly y'know sort of fairly brief extracts y'know sort of five or ten minutes or something like that maybe and get people to y'know respond to it and so on. +Um and er so yeah if you sort of do something along those lines um so y'know sort of find some extracts and think of some questions I would've thought. +Um and also it may be possible to y'know you may want to start out by showing people some stuff and trying to get them to talk about it so you you understand the sort of language concepts, repertoires, or whatever you want to call them, that people are actually using to try try and work out some more formal questions from that and move on to a questionnaire type thing y'know I mean that's a possibility. +Or you may want to do discussions sessions and and er try and content analyse or discourse analyse the discussions. +I mean that's a possibility. +Erm it helps of course if you can find some some sort of linkage with some some y'know things that've been written about I don't know humour and something +Oh was that George Payton and various other people? +Yeah erm so er yeah right that's er because I mean what's nice to see in these things is if you're able to tell some sort of coherent little story from er y'know kind of these er people's ideas, themes, speculations, evidence from previous studies and all that kind of thing and this is this is the data that we've got that tells us something about those and says how misconceived they all are or how it may confirm them or whatever and then y'know a couple of bits sort of so it's like a nice narrative but sort of fairly y'know sort of continuous argument going through which is nice to see and so er yeah. +So if you find some yeah find some yeah it's a matter of y'know getting some stuff erm getting some stuff together. +Erm so er is there anything else we need to worry about at this stage do you think? +Erm I can't really do very much until I've got +Mhm yeah yeah but er well anyway if you get some stuff together and we'll see we'll see how it goes but er yeah so I think you'll probably find you'll have to work quite briskly erm +yeah right well have you succeeded in getting other stuff out of the way? +Oh good oh right so er so you can you can do project for a few weeks fairly solidly before the end of term course when deadlines start looming. +Yeah great yeah so that's erm that's good right good okay yeah. +Well, best of luck to you and er right I'll see you on Monday +Right +Right okay cheers oh hello +child sex abuse you know where the children abuse other children +Yeah well we're talking about sort of. +Erm if it's um well generally speaking I think, thinking about what the sort of consensus would be among people who who study this sort of thing, they're usually looking for some sort of of discrepancy in ages or powers or something. +Erm I mean kids can do, of a similar age, can do enormously abusive things to each-other in which case it's often thought of as things like bulling or erm or or something like that y'know I mean for example I know somebody who attende was educated at Rugby and you know he was he was buggered silly by the other boys who also wired him up to the mains and stuck billiard cues up his bum and all sort of things. +Er so I suppose y'know in a sense that's true, there is the sort of sexual element to some of that bullying that goes on. +Um I think um where I've seen things that er discussed under the heading of child sex abuse erm er it's often the case that um y'know maybe in some families you find the situation where there's a daughter who's being abused by the father and then when the brother gets old enough to take an interest in sexuality, he joins in as well sort of thing and it's er y'know it's like there's two blokes abusing the girl. +Um so I mean that can sometimes occur. +Er when there's already an abusive sort of dynamic going on erm y'know other people who are more similar in age can can can get can start participating in that. +Um I'm not quite sure wheth whether you'd call it bullying, whether you'd call it child sex abuse, whether you'd whatever you call it I think depends on the ages of the participants and depends on on the perspective of the person who's describing it as well +I suppose it depends on exactly what's occurring and +Yeah mhm. +Oh hello there . +Oh right yeah. +Erm, oh not too bad thanks. +Now erm I've still got some stuff to do about child sex abuse for the next hour or so. +Were you intending to? +just called to say hello +got the video +Oh right yes. +Erm ah some people were looking for you earlier. +Did they come and see you? +Yeah right yes yeah right yes good. +Yes I'm I'm microphoned up. +It's the British National Corpus, they're trying to record languages that is used in the U K +Oh excellent excellent +today sort of thing and erm er we're recording the lecture. +Sorry, were you trying to say something? +Oh you're after alright yeah +That's an interesting sweatshirt there +Yeah +Mhm well I tell you what, do you want to record something?record some language in the tape recorder? +This is five Anglo Saxon +Bollocks +Mhm dear +There's a Scottish haggis faced bastard here +It's still going, it's a very long tape in here +language I remember you saying in the first year when you first came to Birmingham +yeah yeah +and I thought it was hysterical,it was the fact that you noticed when you first came here about if somebody liked you they always greeted you by swearing at you +Oh right +it's like oh alright +I must I must have been I must have been on good form that day +You you were +and I thought I thought that's true that's true because I do that +I don't remember that +phone them up and they say, alright you fat old bastard how're you doing? +Oh yes good yeah. +I know I did a thing on the phone with somebody once where erm er let's see what it was, oh I was going round to his house to cut some ends of bricks of a wall with er with a big angle grinder and I phoned up and said, hello this Leicester Brick Decapitation Services, I gather you've got some bricks who's heads need cutting off, and it was the wrong person +So er I said oh I do beg your pardon, is there? +Er no, said this person after a distinct pause +and erm er I said, I'm terribly sorry I've got the wrong number. +That's interesting, there's a little there's a little thing in either end of this microphone er I wonder which erm perhaps it's supposed to be on the directional? +It'd be interesting to play this back and see what er see what's +listen all your ahs and your ums and your ers +Oh yes well yes I mean it would be nice of we could sort of clean those out of the the soundtrack and all the stumbles over words an +Erm yes it is yes it is because language language languages if you actually write down real language that people say it's gibberish. +Erm yeah if you try and transcribe stuff, as I discovered doing my P HD you know, I didn't realise how much gibberish was talked and often things the meaning's clear in the conversation but if you listen to the words or l w read the words later y'know you haven't a clue what they're on about and yet you're fairly sure +Er I don't think so. +I think I'm doing it +Oh right oh right +about the way we treat children. +I remember when I was a child that occasionally my parents would have visitors to the house, people that I'd never set +yeah +eyes on before and when it was time for me to go to bed I would be encouraged not made +to kiss them to kiss them +kiss these people goodnight +Oh God I remember things like that. +Oh no +Well is that isn't that absolutely tragic +Oh God I can st I can still remember Auntie Edie and her mouth full of rotten teeth, oh dear, whom I'd never met before +it was a stranger +and we were well it was somebody who was a stranger to me but allegedly she was related to the family or something +Cos all adults are called auntie and uncle aren't they as well because +yes it sort of familiarises them and makes them seem like they're relatives and stuff yeah +I can remember being made to kiss these strangers, even when I was say about nine, eight or nine, I can remember feeling quite embarrassed about having to do it +Yeah well I I remember it was more a it was more or less like a feeling of physical revulsion er I felt erm on occasions like that, partly because of the person but partly because it was a bit of an imposition on on my on my intimacy as it were y'know erm so er +try to understand children. +I can remember as a child being very nearly +it's my body and nobody else should be touching it. +Yeah yeah +I didn't like it I mean er as you say +Yeah and erm yeah I mean that's one of the things that tends to to happen to kids and it's almost like when you're a kid your body isn't your own +That's right +Erm and that's I suppose was the point I was trying to make earlier that al that's why abusers sometimes find it very easy because they're able to tap into a lot of the ways in which we treat children um y'know so er +like if you ever work in a children's ward you can always tell the children that've been hospitalised for a great length of time cos you can do anything with them +So they're like fairly +totally passive +So they're used to have thermometers stuck in them an and have the have the bed pan slipped underneath them yeah mhm +and and presumably even if they're not floppy as a result of their illness they'll they'll sort of go floppy after er a period of institutionalisation yeah mhm yeah yeah mhm so er. +Well that's interesting well I'll er d do you mind if I mention that when we start the lecture again because that's a good example erm yeah. +Sorry were you about to say something? +what about what about the parents who let it go on? +Erm +gonna talk a little bit about family dynamics and stuff like that in a in a short while, hopefully, if I get time erm so anyway I think it's almost enough people back in to er +Do you have a handout for me please? +Erm not any more I don't I've given them all away hello, are there any spare handouts in the room? +Anywhere at the back or anything? +Erm no, well have a look up at the back and see if you can see anything. +Mhm yeah mhm yeah +get ready +Oh right erm yeah erm well I dunno I'm I'm almost tempted to want to start again now er so er mhm yeah mhm . +oh good, hello people, mhm mhm +It's a bunch of people, Universities, Publishers, erm some funding from Central Government, some from er research councils of various kinds are trying to make a sort of record of current usage of the English language and I think Longmans are intr interested in it for example f from the point of view of dictionaries and stuff like that. +Erm I've got er ah just a minute oh it's got them on here. +Look, British Library Chambers I beg your pardon. +I beg your pardon I've actually committed myself to tape and made a big faux pas. +It's Oxford University Press and Chambers. +It's n er I can't see Longmans. +Erm there's Lancaster University, there's Oxford University +oh right +Erm and +Is it about is it about discourse then erm or +Erm I +language in general? +I think, I'm not quite sure how they're gonna attempt to analyse it. +Erm whether it's to do just with the words, like for dictionaries usage y'know or whether it's to do with erm how language is strung together, functional use of grammar or whether it's to do with units and repertoires and bigger units or whether it's to do even with ideologies or yeah +Oh right +Mhm so I mean well it it's gonna be an archive and maybe people can who want to to analyse everyday language can get tape recordings from it and er y'know perhaps it can be used in scholarship, perhaps it can be used in socio-linguistics or whatever. +Em I dunno quite erm +So it's not +Not, well this one specifically this but er I mean there's tapes being taken all over the place. +Erm and all manner of people have been invited to participate and Aston was and I think got this initially but he's passed it on to me er so er yeah anyway let's let's see if I can get the thing rolling again. +Mhm yeah mhm +Erm there was but, have a look on the top of that slide projector, I think there's some on there. +Erm sorry I gave them all away I'm afraid mhm yeah so er I'm tempted to start rolling again in a moment so would you like to make an announcement yeah? +Er hello everybody. +Can I just make an announcement about the videos. +Erm I've got this the er the erm Carl Rogers video which er is in principle an awful awful copy, you can't hear it, it's a terribly recording er but er you may w oh gosh I can speak into that, how exciting. +Erm so so you er may want to stop at eleven o'clock, or ten to eleven or whatever and watch the video. +I think what I'll do, you've got about forty minutes of it today, you'll get Carl Rogers working with a client called er and then we'll stop there and then next week you'll see the er the next behaviourist called er called erm Arnold Lazarus, okay, who you might wan he's got a book called Multi Modal Therapy which was a big hit about ten years ago and there's about five copies in the library. +Who was I talking to about books? +Yes, have a look at Arnold Lazarus and Multi Modal Therapy. +Erm so what you get is you get Rogers this week working with client and then you get Arnold Lazarus the following week and then after that you then get er you then get then you then get the client saying what she thought of it all which is quite interesting as well, so erm what I'll do is I'll put it on to about when finished really +Yeah okay well I'll I'll try and give you five minutes before eleven o'clock so er so you can nip over to the video room or wherever it's being played. +Oh it's in here? +Right okay yeah. +And er, the other people, was it was it eleven o'clock on Monday people ? +Eleven o'clock Monday is that right, yeah? +So what I'll do is I'll have the video tape in er with on Monday. +I won't be in on Monday so people will have to come in on Monday somebody will have to come in on Monday, go to the room specified which I haven't agreed yet and then put it on and then bring it back again to so people who can't make it today, that that's the alternative arrangement but I'll tell you more when I come back at eleven o'clock, okay? +Right mhm and no problem. +Okay right now erm let's continue with, I beg your pardon, let's continue with chi sorry are y oh never mind, okay right cheers right. +Erm okay let's let's keep rolling along with erm with child abuse. +Interestingly enough in the interval there's a couple of interesting observations been made by by various of you which I'd like to mention before we actually get back on to the handout as it were. +Erm, first of all, what if the abuser and the abused are around about the same age? +Would it still be considered child sex abuse? +Well erm there's a lot of there's a lot of abuse that goes on between kids of similar ages, often in schools, and we call it things like bullying. +Usually to be defined as child sex abuse I think w for most authors there'd need to be some kind of discrepancy in the ages in some way, that is y'know if somebody was about thirteen and the other person was about eighteen it might be ah starting to get er a big enough discrepancy to be outside the realm of of y'know kind of normal y'know sort of boyfriend and girlfriend to use those saccarinous terms erm relationships and maybe might be considered to be er to be something like child abuse. +Erm maybe also erm if you look at things that happen, particularly in closed institutions in closed environments. +Erm like erm for example I knew somebody who was educated at Rugby and during his time there he was abused enormously by the other kids. +Erm he was buggered silly to put it er very crudely erm and not only that but they used to wire each-other up to the mains and and stick er snooker cues up each-other's backsides and a whole range of activities used to go on. +Erm all the s all the all the rumours you hear about public schools seem to be true. +Erm and this can leave people obviously with a number of traumas and a number of difficulties to deal with later on in life. +Um so er but nevertheless those sort of things aren't often considered to be child sex abuse. +Erm indeed there are many within in the education system, particularly older men seem to have this attitude in my experience, that y'know it's just it's just boys messing about and having a good time. +Erm, I don't know. +Erm y'know it's one of these things that er that's often been rather condoned,o particularly if you're looking at the education system. +There, in this country, more so than any other country in Europe, there's a tradition of adults abusing children quite legitimately as well in the form of beating them and erm indeed headmasters of Eton back in the eighteenth and nineteenth century were often selected, not because of their scholarly ability, but because of their size and strength. +Erm there's the legendary Doctor Keat of Eton who er was was erm legendary precisely because he beat the boys so often and so vigorously. +Um if you go back to the eighteenth century, early nineteenth century, you find that um I think it was at er Winchester possibly, er some some of you may have heard of this in in History or something, er there was an uprising at Winchester school and the Army had to be called in to quell the rioting pupils because they were rebelling against the harsh conditions. +Anyway erm so erm you sometimes also find with family situations, let's suppose in some situations you have some you have a daughter in the household who's being abused by say the father or step-father, maybe if there's a brother once he gets old enough to start becoming interested in sex, in some cases, although he's round about the same age as his sister, can be um as it were inducted into the into the cycle of abuse erm can actually start participating when the dynamic's already there. +Erm another thing is, going back to the point about erm er when you're a child grown-ups often do rather unpleasant things to you and expect you to comply. +Erm er just made an observation about er experience in hospital with children and apparently when kids have been in hospital for a length of time they don't object so much when you go along and stick a the +Um often this is one of these things that's er a vicious circle +I've mentioned briefly there is um er, let me see, it's , women who've been abused show more need for power than a comparable group of unabused women. +Need for power is is one of things, it's rather like erm need for achievement or something like that. +Erm I suppose the theory is that um somehow the experience of disempowerment, the experience of abuse, is is something er that prompts this greater need in later life. +Er perhaps it er perhaps it also prompts a greater fear of not being in control, a greater fear of of er not being in in some way in command of the situation because then somebody might do something to you. +Now erm how have we got er I've next thing on the handout is something I've stuck on about the way in which erm er well it's what I've just covered about the the way in which some sorts of therapies for people who've been abused as children tend to embody rather heterosexist assumptions which has been stated by Jenny Kissinger for example. +Erm er also um I've stuck in a note about the difficulty in interpreting the consequences of abuse erm because of the way in which um you may find, as did, looking at people who've been abused as children er versus people who haven't. +If you look at the way they report they remember what their family environment was like, what their home environment was like as as kids erm you find that they generally have much less positive recollections than people who weren't abused as children. +So maybe it's difficult to separate out the consequences of abuse per se from the consequences of erm lousy emotional environment, from the consequences of neglect and deprivation, from the consequences of a whole range of non-sexual abuses which you may find in the kinds of environment where child sex abuse is more likely. +Now I'm not saying in this that child sex abuse is specific to one particular class or group of people in society. +It seems to cut across most social divisions. +Erm y'know you can't say, oh it's more common in this particular group of people because they live in Manchester or something like that. +Y'know it's it's one of these things that isn't confined to a particular region, isn't confined to a particular class or ethnic group or anything like that. +Erm however, you do find some indications from some studies that people report rather more negative things about their er about their early home environment. +Now, erm on the subject of of the family, it's worth mentioning another erm sort of debate that goes on within the subject of child sex abuse, the business of I suppose you might call it the business of responsibility. +Now if you fi go back to sort of in the 1970's and the nineteen possibly into the 1980's erm there was er a certain amount of emphasis on disrupted family dynamics, there's something wrong with the families where this kind of thing occurs. +There is something wrong with the relationships, there is as well as somebody doing the abuse, there are other people who are somehow complicit in the abuse because they're allowing it to go on, they must have known, surely they must have known, why didn't they do something? +In the typical scenario erm you have the parents as villains of the peace, you have the children or the child as being abused, you have ah typically in the er as it were the stereotypical scenario, you have the father doing the abuse, you have a certain amount of responsibility pointed at the mother. +Why didn't you do something about it? +Why didn't you stop him? +Why didn't you throw him out? +Why didn't you report him? +Etcetera etcetera. +Now I suppose that kind of model of what goes on in families has been disrupted a bit in the last few years because increasingly people have drawn attention to the way in which um often the person doing the abuse is the most powerful person within that family situation. +Erm often it's the father, often the abuse is going on in connection with a whole range of processes whereby that person dominates the climate in that household. +Nobody in particular, and I s I use the word him, nobody particularly wants to question him, nobody particularly wants to get him in a bad mood. +Erm often you find that that particular person is the one who's in whose name the mortgage is, or in whose name the bills are, the one who's bringing the wages home and that kind of thing and this erm power, this domination, has been suggested as one of the reasons why some people, some other members of the family, like like wives, like mothers, aren't always able effectively to do something about it. +This sort of economic and social domination that goes on across the whole family. +Um so um the business of family dynamics again is one of these contentious areas in er understanding child abuse. +Erm there have been erm, I should have written it down actually because I've I've just gone a complete blank, there was that erm that famous case in the States ah and there were two people who'd erm I think the main impetus for the abuse of their child came from the came from the man came from the husband and there was a great deal of er debate as to why the woman hadn't successfully protected the child or successfully done something about it er and I've forgotten the names of the people and I've forgotten when it was. +I should have written it down, sorry about that, that was a completely useless digression. +Erm er anyway, never mind, um so um also erm particularly from a feminist perspective this idea of of so-called faulty family dynamics has been called into question by people like for example Hall and Lloyd who were saying that um, something along the lines of if you if you blame the family as a whole then this draws attention away from the fact that it's not the families who do the abusing, it's often, from their point of view, it was often the men that do. +So erm y'know there's a sense in which some people feel rather suspicious of this sort o y'know the family dynamics type theories because it draws attention away from the responsibility of the people who actually do the abuse. +Erm anyway right that's er a quick observation on the as it were the dynamics of of abuse. +Now, remembering being abused as a child. +Again this is another contentious area. +Sometimes people have vivid and compelling memories of being abused. +Sometimes people have um a whole variety of symptoms in later life and perhaps as a consequence of some sort of therapy, some sort of consciousness raising exercise, something like that erm they are not necessarily aware at the start that they've been abused but sometimes they feel y'know a very compelling sense of memories flooding back. +Y'know that somehow um, perhaps rather like the psychoanalytic notion of repression, something like that, somehow um er they've been unable to remember for a number of years, possibly even decades, and er something triggers it. +Erm I've mentioned a couple of things on the handout, one from this paper by Sigmund, another from I think this is in the British Journal of Psychiatry, I think they were writing. +Um and erm y'know maybe there's particular events, sometimes it's therapy, sometimes it's something else um which prompts the memories of of being abused. +Um now the process of remembering abuse again is another area of contemporary debate. +Erm often accusing people of abusing you when you were a child is quite, in some ways, quite a risky thing to do because they, understandably perhaps, get rather huffy about it. +Er they get rather sulky and offended to say the least, they get er, often they recruit academics and lawyers to say that the memories of abuse are fabricated, the memories of abuse they couldn't really have happened because the people concerned were out of the country at the time and were on holiday anyway and er didn't even meet the family until the kid was eleven years old after it was sup and so on and so forth. +There's an in er a strong tendency to call the the testimony of people who've been abused into question in this way. +Um in particular there's this constructive false memory syndrome that erm people are in some ways quite keen on. +That is, according to false memory syndrome theorists, somehow the process of therapy, the process of disclosure, the process of interviewing people to find out the details of the abuse, somehow that constructs the abuse itself, somehow that's erm the thing that's that's causing the memories. +Um somehow it's not really to do with whether they were abused or not as children, somehow it's the it's the therapist. +Particularly if there's any suggestion that anything a bit like hypnosis has been used um this er business of of well it must be the therapist making them up or putting them up to it in some way becomes a particular argument that's raised quite often. +Um so erm I did have some I did have some references on this which erm unfortunately I I put to one side and I've succeeded in losing so erm I didn't get the chance to put them on the handout but erm I'm just alerting you to that area of debate and that area of enquiry. +Um interestingly enough, when you think about the way in which memory is conceptualised and understood in cognitive psychology, um memory increasingly these days seems to be being understood as a sort of active constructive process anyway. +Um it's almost as if the debate about false memory syndrome is embedded in an older notion of memory, embedded in a notion of memory as if it were either literally true or literally false, embedded in a notion of memory which sees memories as things like larders or cupboards or filing cabinets and um y'know people pick the memories out and get them out and and display them to other people. +Um, as we know from studies of re story telling, as we know from studies of memories for story structure and recall, memories for everyday events mm there's er a substantial way in which memories are scripted, which memories um seem to fit a schemer, which memories ah aren't stored as a literal description of something but they're something that we re-construct as we tell them. +Er there's a sense also in which memories may not be an individual phenomenon but may be a collective phenomena and if you listen to families reminiscing about things or people who've know each-other for a long time reminiscing about things, different people supply different details, they contradict one-another, they erm fill things in, they say no it can't have been then because um because that was the Christmas when Uncle Sydney had his kidney stones and um y'know stuff like that. +Um and then people say, oh yes I remember now and then they tell a slightly different story. +Um so er y'know um in that context calling a particular set of memories false is is sort of rather misses the point um y'know in a sense all the memories we have are fabrications. +Erm that um anyway er that's a slight aside so erm when you hear people going on about false memory syndrome it tends to pre-suppose that there are certain memories which are true by contrast um which isn't necessarily always going to be the case. +Um anyway um so erm there are things, there are sometimes things that er that trigger memories. +Um I've got an example from the Ronnie Burstow book er let's see. +Erm oh I don't know. +Here's here's an example of a bit of erm I think slightly cleaned up therapeutic conversation. +Erm,client, I'm really scared, I don't have any control over the bulimia. +You know I throw up food without even wanting to. +Councillor, I know and it must be really upsetting. +Let me ask you something, does this happen more often with any particular type of food? +Client, it could happen with anything. +Well actually it's more with things that're runny you know like drippy egg whites. +Councillor, the texture bothers you. +Client, it's so messy, disgusting really. +Councillor, that's an interesting word that you've used there. +You often describe things as disgusting and when you do your mouth wrinkles up like you really can't stand the taste. +When you used that word in our session last week you were talking of the taste of semen. +Client, yeah. +Councillor, you're looking disgusted now, are you okay? +Client, you know there's something I'd forgotten all about. +When I first had oral sex I was like totally out and I started retching. +There's something else too. +The taste was familiar. +I knew that taste from childhood . +So maybe m y'know kind of the process of of of reconstructing memories, the process of remembering um is prompted by other things. +It's prompted by therapy sessions, it's prompted by other kinds of tastes and feelings and ideas. +Erm hello. +Erm and erm it's something that we're not necessarily consciously aware of all the time but y'know kind of for some reason they're called back to mind. +Now erm as it approaches the witching hour of twenty to eleven, I'll try and finish off erm reasonably briskly. +Erm what I've mentioned then on the handout is some stuff about um er the business of traumagenic dynamics and the possibility that some of the consequences of child sex abuse cold be thought of as as er post-traumatic stress disorder. +There's a somebody called Finklehall who's quite interested in understanding the the dynamics of abuse which I've quoted from here. +Um now I think maybe um again there's this there's this notion of of people developing distorted beliefs, distorted perceptions and so forth. +Um and I think there's some acknowledgement in these quotes I've got under end results, classifications and syndromes which um I suppose there's some acknowledgement that maybe these things were adaptive at the time but maybe once people are grown up they're not quite so adaptive. +Erm that somehow coping strategies which people developed at the time are counter-productive when they when they're a bit older, so that's the general erm er kind of of impetus behind that. +Um now er just to finish off um I've mentioned very briefly on the handout some different kinds of of er approaches to therapy um that people have used. +Um just going through them, obviously there's some benefit in having a good therapeutic relationship. +Erm sometimes er I haven't mentioned much about the gender of the therapist but sometimes it can help a great deal if the therapist's the same gender as the same person who's undergoing therapy and it also helps if it's er sometimes you can't very easily with some therapists, y'know it sometimes erm helps if it's somebody you can trust and confide in and stuff like that and obviously, having met various psychiatrists and clinical psychologists, er quite a number of them are not people I'd particularly like to talk about about being abused as a child. +Erm I think one of the one of the exceptions is actually. +I could I could really er enjoy being counselled or or having some sort of therapeutic relationship with him er strangely enough but er y'know. +Erm but not everybody's quite so erm y'know not everybody gets on with everybody and um this kind of what you might call personal chemistry, to lapse for a moment into pharmacological determinism er maybe helps um maybe helps a bit. +Erm there's also a feeling, this business of c almost like catharsis that re-telling re- telling the events, re-telling the experience ah is somehow is somehow curative, is somehow therapeutic. +Ah this is a thing which um maybe is quite difficult to do, particularly as we have a culture of stiff upper lips and erm er a culture of of not making a fuss about things and a culture of particularly telling children not to make a fuss about things, a culture of trying to ensure that children can't legitimately make a fuss about things. +Like when my mother was a kid in the 1930's they didn't used to use anaesthesia for taking out your first set of teeth if they were to take them out, up in the round Newcastle. +They thought well kids just make a fuss anyway and they haven't got any proper routes so what're they making all that fuss about y'know, shut up, um and er that kind of things was going on. +So er sometimes it's it's very erm difficult to re-live these particular experiences. +Um going back to this business of people who've been abused at er as part of, well not exactly abused, people who've been severely bullied in in sc in the school system, erm particularly when you're talking about all boys schools, I mean this is one of the problems that they have to contend with. +There are some sort of public schools survivors groups which have been set up recently and um it's interesting that this business of being strong and silent um is a kind of is a kind of nineteenth century hangover and I think it affects men and I think it affects women too to some extent. +Erm, have I told you about Thomas Carlisle very much before? +Thomas Carlisle was er one of the writers in the nineteenth century who was very keen on this business of being strong and silent and a productive worker and a and a competent breadwinner and he advocated this as the best way of being a man. +Erm, of self-discipline, of self-control and all that kind of thing. +Thomas Carlisle himself wasn't very much like that. +He was he was a hypochondriac, he detailed his er what he ate and his bowel movements in almost obsessive detail. +Um Thomas Carlisle um wen was very much impressed by the work of people like Wordsworth and Coleridge because they were just a bit before him and he actually went and met Coleridge. +Thomas Carlisle as a young man was absolutely disgusted by Coleridge because Coleridge was all sort of fat and flabby and had ha frilly cravats and and was a was a was a dopehead and a heroin addict and er sat around all day in a darkened room and took drugs and drank and stuff like that, which um disillusioned Carlisle very much. +What a terrible thing it is for our literary establishment to be peopled by degenerates like this, he felt. +So erm nevertheless we have er the spirit of Thomas Carlisle walks abroad amongst us even now so er sometimes this business of going through traumatic experiences, particularly in front of another person, can be very very difficult for us to do. +Yeah erm there's some um most of that stuff is fairly self-explanatory. +Um maybe um maybe maybe maybe maybe ah as it's about ten to I shan't elaborate on many of those points too much. +Erm now what I want to say at the very very end is a quick observation by Beatrix Campbell who wrote a book about the Cleveland er child sex abuse scandal which took place in the late 1980's. +In Cleveland um there were a number of cases of child sex abused diagnosed, I think somewhere somewhere in the region of between one and two hundred altogether, by a controversial process called the anal dilation reflex. +That is um if you erm if you make children er sort of lie down on their fronts with their bums in their air and you and bums in their air and you touch anuses apparently the anus dilates, or it can do, erm allegedly in children who've been sexually abused in that way, in children who've been who've been penetrated anally. +Now this procedure was used to, in inverted commas, diagnose a number of children in the Cleveland area as having been sexually abused. +Erm there was a big scandal about it and there was a report by um Butler Schloss which recommended, among other things, a whole range of safeguards and checks and balances of procedures so that this sort of, oh my God, this tragedy mustn't happen in future. +So um that kind of thing b according to Campbell may be one of the reasons why the Cleveland scandal was so scandalous was because it intersected with a number of cultural fears we have about the relationship between sexuality and the anus for some reason. +Um maybe it was particularly controversial because it seemed to be accusing er people, men in the family, particularly fathers, of having abused their children anally with all this sort of y'know homosexual connotations of that which activated the number of, as well as a number of fears about about child sex abuse and being a child abuser, it activated a number of rather more homophobic fears, both among the people so accused and in c our culture generally and er that perhaps explains why this er particular incident was so was so compelling and attracted so much com er publicity, according to Campbell anyway. +So erm right now I think we might as well erm allow things to draw naturally to a close there so um let's see erm this gives you a few minutes to catch your breath in time for video, for those of you who're erm intending to watch it. +Um so er well thanks very much for your attention +Erm yeah certainly if you if you so desire +Um yep yeah I don't think er I don't think I'll need it. +I'll bung you on my list now +have you had chance to look at the +Erm yeah I've had a bit of a look at it but my eyes glazed over at about one thirty. +Er are you intending to, do you want to come and see me now, or do you wanna watch video? +Erm because you can come and see me and we'll we we can talk about it a bit because I actually have got some thoughts. +Er +Em I think I'll talk to you now +Okay fine yeah I'll just pick up my papers. +Hello +Erm would I be able to come and see you to er any time this afternoon about my project? +Yes please do erm +questionnaire's entirely changed from the one I +Ah right yeah +I think it's more to the point cos what I was doing at Christmas wasn't really exploring the attitudes as I wanted to +Yeah erm +but it's very long and I don't know +Mhm +Er right okay well I'll tell you what, I think erm people are coming to see me until about two or three or so but erm if you come a bit after three you'll probably catch me on my own +Okay +Okay right cheers mhm +Thank you +Hello +Hello there, oh not too bad y'know erm let's see, just done child sex abuse, or rather been talking about it +an unpleasant subject +Yeah +Yeah right okay off we go. +Okay see you soon oh sorry. +I just wish they'd stagger lecture finishing times because the corridors just get so totally packed +Yeah mhm. +Yes it's great, I mean in the first year lecture on Tuesday erm in the break I gave them in the middle of it the the corridor was like thick with tobacco smoke y'know you could hardly +got this really bad cough +Oh is that that slightly slightly older woman who's sort of middle aged? +out in the corridor having a smoke +yeah +stand it you know +yeah well um I don't know, maybe she grew up when there were y'know smoking was surrounded by rather different attitudes. +Like my father, when he was, when my mother first started going with him he used to smoke cigarettes quite hea heavily erm and er when he had a cold or something like that he'd say, oh I must have a fag it helps me bring the phlegm up so erm in some ways they're almost perceived as having a like a cur curative er +Hello? oh right. +Now then mhm erm sorry see see the difference of what? +mhm right okay. +So we're still erm we're still we're still live from the point of view of the British National Corpus I think. +I dunno quite how erm er much er of other people's conversation it's picking up but it's probably picking me up er +Can you record that all day? +Well I don't know. +I think there's some instructions somewhere. +Erm it says something along the lines of um, it doesn't say on there. +I think there's some in I think I saw some instructions that ideally they were looking for about something like about four hours of lectures and about four hours of y'know kind of more tutorial like interactions. +So erm y'know kind of I'll just er +come and see me now +Well no I wasn't I wasn't thinking about that. +I was just thinking about erm er y'know while it's while it's reasonably fresh in my mind. +Um now one thing er I notice you're you've gone for quite heavily is using kind of declarative directional statements. +That is, you know kind of where presumably the scale would be agree to disagree. +Um and erm I was just wondering y'know kind of erm often when I write questionnaires I like to go for a sort of more kind of rather less declarative statements. +Sort of, how do you feel about du du du du du du du y'know sort of yes definitely to no not all or y'know kind of doesn't bother me to very angry or something like that but given that you've done it this way, I think it works reasonably well. +Now um +Can you give me an example of of an alternative +Erm er I don't know, I mean maybe it would be like it would be like you give a fairly sort of neutral statement and you have the adjectives at the end of the scale give indicate the responses like y'know something like how do you feel about homosexuality and you could have sort of y'know erm natural to unnatural or something like that erm +Oh yeah +yeah, as a possibility but given th give that you you've gone for it in this direction y'know kind of if you're happy I'm happy sort of thing. +Um I was just thinking about y'know +um yeah erm yeah it may be um given that you've er kind of er divided it up into into sections erm I think er maybe you could you could adopt a slightly different format for a different section or something like that so people y'know kind of get into section two and it's a wee bit different, it's a wee bit more er y'know +y'know +I think I think it is a good idea though to erm oh right er to y'know kind of break it up a bit er particularly if at an early stage you're intending to y'know kind of go through erm and get people to go through quite a lot of questions erm as a by way of er y'know kind of the first stages in in er developing this thing. +Um I think that um y'know it's often quite intimidating to be confronted with y'know sort of say eighty odd questions, if you were to use that many, erm so if you if you kind of break it up a bit in some way and have different headed sections with slightly different format questions it might y'know kind of help people through it as it were. +Do you think there's too many there? +Erm I think um, given what you were saying yesterday, erm it's sometimes a good idea to start with quite a lot and then narrow it down a bit. +Erm now I mean there's various things you can end up doing. +One is erm like you were saying something like factor analysis, something like erm y'know kind of seeing how they cluster together. +Erm on the basis of that you, and the other thing that er is probably worth thinking about is is looking at items which erm er sort of seem to distinguish strongly between people. +If everybody fills a particular item in round about the middle or if everybody agrees with it or everybody disagrees with it, it's not telling you very much as it were, according to the usual of attitude scale construction anyway. +I think sometimes they do tell you a lot but er y'know generally speaking they're like looking for items that strongly distinguish. +The other thing is um, and you can spot this from correlation, matrixes and and factor analyses, erm if there's a lot of items that correlate quite highly together you can boot some of them out because they're not telling you anything that the other items don't already tell you sort of thing. +So, you know, if you get one factor on which a lot of them load erm like the business about, you may find there're strong correlations between the attitudes to abnormality and, where's the one on mental illness and stuff like that? +Erm so erm you may find that you can address that issue just as well with one erm and that's s well from what you were saying yesterday, that seems to be the y'know the kind of sort of approach to to design that you're taking. +So maybe maybe keep it fairly big first of all and then then s on the basis of how people respond, narrow it down and maybe boot some out of that. +Erm just thinking about +If I do correlations I mean is that gonna be absolute massive job? +Erm it's a pretty it's a pretty big S P S S job actually erm if you've got that many. +Erm you may have to um, thinking about the capabilities of that computer there, you may have to um er split it up into er into say two sets of questions. +Erm because I think you can you can do a correlation matrix with say if you specify like forty odd variables. +Erm it sometimes gets a bit, runs out of memory, if if you put very many more than that in. +But the one on the in the public access machines over th in the main building they'll be able to do more because it's a more powerful computer it's based in. +So erm so give it a go anyway and see what happens erm and it's no great hardship to have to y'know kind of do it in two or more sets I wouldn't have thought y'know it'll it'll probably still work. +Erm so erm yeah as regards the selection of er of items I I didn't feel um er well for example generally speaking er I don't have any y'know sort of see any big problems with the wordings. +They seem mostly fairly fairly direct and to relate fairly closely to everyday language so er y'know it's not gonna mhm yeah yeah yeah yeah +Erm I was just thinking erm er there's quite a few field here. +Erm it may be erm er worth, in that, in that context, saying something about erm to get a contrast effect between y'know sort of how people would feel if they saw a man and a woman kissing in public and they may be perfectly alright about that but they may er feel particularly disgusted when it's sort of two men or two women. +I think these'd probably be better if I did them on the one you suggested for +yeah yeah maybe so yeah . +Erm er what about the wor possibly a word like indifferent but it's not a very common word in the English language, possibly wouldn't be bothered or something like that. +You can put a little phrase at the end of the scale or whatever scale you're intending to use +Yeah. +I think those'd probably be better with that kind of response rather than the previous one +Fair enough yeah because it just struck me that there's a lot of er a lot of disgusteds all at once there. +Now did I think er anything when I've read these. +Erm enjoy attending or offending? +Attending? +Attending, oh right okay yeah. +I could be offending I suppose. +Erm yeah now these things these things could translate into sort of um +comfortable uncomfortable +Yeah, comfortable uncomfortable um happy unhappy y'know kind of er +Erm with some of these it may even be possible to y'know there's a number of different adjectives that you could try with with some of these things like erm y'know how would you feel about knowing that you're attractive to your own sex? +Y'know sort of comfortable uncomfortable y'know kind of erm I don't know pleased displeased, angry, what's the opposite of angry? +Erm y'know I mean because people have a whole variety of reactions to to these things which you may want to investigate more specifically. +Er and it's one of these things where thinking about y your average heterosexual bloke they may respond angrily but there's a suspicion that maybe it's because they're feeling rather threatened underneath sort of thing. +Erm y'know that that sort of thing when they when they y'know when they might be, when they feel when they feel that some some other bloke's making an approach to them, when they feel that er y'know erm somebody finds them attractive, when they think that some other bloke has made a pass at them or something like that y'know they sort of react in a hostile way but y'know there's that suspicion that mm er y'know kind of er it's because they're insecure about their masculinity, it's because they feel threatened or something like that. +So there's a number of different dimensions to to these things which you may want to attack. +Erm erm so er yeah. +Well I suppose you're erm er addressing some of those different aspects as it is but again y'know in a sense I'm happy if you're happy but I'm just thinking of different ways of doing it +I mean that idea about comfortable uncomfortable +Mhm yeah yeah so erm yeah there's a number of erm yeah. +I wonder erm. +One of the things that does strike me about er particularly heterosexual men and their attitudes to homosexual and y'know homo erotic activities, there's y'know a lot of different aspects where y'know I don't know rugby players all get in the shower together and smack each-other on the backside in the name of horse play and y'know it's not considered threatening or erm or outrageous and yet sometimes these are the very people who are the most homophobic. +Erm there's a sense in which y'know kind of when I go to concerts erm there's y'know kind of there's loads of blokes who take their shirts off and er wrestle around together and build human pyramids and do all that kind of, lots of body contact, lots of grasping one-another and all that kind of thing and yet erm y'know presumably to them, on the assumption that they're heterosexual, as I assume probably they are, it's it's one of these things that erm y'know is kind of again maybe it even occurs at the same time as they're quite homophobic in some cases. +Y'know that some kinds of activity are considered sort of acceptable and others aren't y'know. +As soon as there's a a the merest hint of there's some sort of erotic intent then it's +Mhm yeah and erm that kind of thing comes into it so that I was wondering if there's any way of er kind of y'know and what y'know where's that something about changing changing changing changing rooms somewhere? +Here's one about the changing room +Yeah mm yeah so erm I was wondering if there's any way of er incorporating that. +I think er, having said that, I mean you've got quite a decent coverage of attitudes and situations in here already. +I'm just y'know just thinking about some of the things that occur to me. +Erm so er yeah erm again y'know I don't have any particular c quarrels with the wordings or the the content of the items. +Ah I think it's just erm y'know kind of erm type them out neatly and give them a go really erm +What kind of people d'you think I the first year psychology students they've been given some sexual orientation? +Not yet not yet +Not yet? +Not yet, that comes a bit later in the term. +I've got t I'm gonna do socialisation and er different approaches and +use those then +Yeah I mean if you get erm, I'll tell you what actually, because it's a two hour slot I can in one slot get them to y'know and th we're not in a great hurry cos there's usually a few spaces left over at the end of the term. +Erm y'know even if it takes them quite a while to fill out y'know go through all eighty items y'know which could be erm y'know kind of, well depending how quickly they work y'know, sort of half an hour or something but if you if you get some er er a sort of type-written draft run off um I dunno, next Tuesday's quite a quite a short deadline but maybe the Tuesday after that er we can try them on the first years if you like? +Yeah that'd be great +Erm +Now I've got er a little thing I wanted to ask as well about erm how people tend to label people as gay +Yeah +I mean I tried it out at work I show you the this is what they used at work. +It's probably too vague +Yeah +in that um it was inspired by a comment that somebody made. +They said about someone at work they said, he's we think he's gay +Mhm mhm +but the trouble is, he doesn't know it yet +Oh right +and when I gave them a questionnaire saying how would you label someone as gay they said, we never make those kind of assumptions. +And I was thinking lying bastards +mhm yeah +so I'm thinking information out of somebody +mhm yeah erm mhm yeah well I think I think it's one of these things like a lot of er mhm yeah yeah . +Yeah erm yeah +Yeah erm. +I think there's all sorts of er there's all sorts of things that people do and they work at different levels. +I mean it's almost like as as part of y'know kind of the general the general gossip of everyday life. +Oh I think he's a bit camp isn't he? +Y'know kind of kind of comments or playful thoughts you might pass about somebody but you you try not to do it seriously as it were, you try not to let it affect your behaviour towards them, you try to not be surprised if they disclose they're gay or heterosexual or whatever so er +I suppose what I did there was put them on the spot so how could I word that so that it doesn't put people on the defensive so much? +mhm yeah yeah yeah mhm +I don't know. +I think it's more erm if it's it's difficult to know exactly because people shift into different repertoires. +The sort of stuff that you get in in y'know sort of everyday gossip between friends about y'know when people talk about each- other, oh I think he's a bit er I think he's a bit camp, or I think he probably is but erm yeah yeah all that kind of thing yeah erm is is like the the informal repertoire, the informal repertoire that you do between friends erm, between people to whom it sort of y'know it's not very important if you give them the wrong impression sort of thing. +Erm whereas kind of in in a situation like this, people lapse into the formal repertoire. +Let's not make assumptions, let's y'know it's up to them and y'know kind of er we shouldn't intrude into their private lives, that's their personal decision and er shouldn't make assumptions about other people's sexuality and all that kind of thing comes out. +Erm so I think I think that's a very difficult thing to access. +Erm, particularly erm if you if you if you're working with people who've got the as it were the politically correct repertoire er that that yeah alright mhm yeah mhm yeah yeah mhm yeah yeah mhm I know but mhm yeah yeah +See some of them have them with that. +I mean some people were quite willing to answer it and they were quite willing to say what stereotypes they usually employ and others j er just clam up and said, oh I never judge people, and I thought yeah liar doing all the time?biggest gossips in the office and she's never got a good word to say about anyone, she's always digging the dirt but when I presented her with it, I never try to judge people. +I'm thinking I can't believe you're saying this but I wanted to photocopy it and show it everyone you see +Mhm well perhaps she doesn't perceive what she does as as judging people y'know perhaps she just + +A blur of lights as a quick thinking cameraman locks on to the first Patriot missile fired in war. +The patriot had already locked itself on to an Iraqi scud aimed at a Saudi airbase. +The scud never made it. +An American air crew saw it happen as they prepared to take off. +I say the erm missile go up, snake up, and then explode and hit the other missile, and I kind of had a good idea right away that, you know, it was a patriot launch, because it was erm very impressive, and erm my confidence in the patriot is extremely high. +Even so, raids that hunt down and destroy scud missiles sites were stepped up today. +At least eight Iraqi mobile launchers were wiped out, although the allies admit it's hard to track them all. +The weather didn't help either, high clouds over enemy territory obscured some targets. +Several air missions returning with their bombs still in place, much to the frustration of the pilots. +Because it is ground offensive in sand, you want to be able to see that if you're being shot, we couldn't we couldn't do that, and it became questionable whether we were actually going to be able to see the ground or not, so we called it aboard . +As waves of combat mission flew out by night and day, the commander of this R A F tornado squadron warned that despite early successes, the task was never going to be easy. +There was a deal of euphoria after the first night, the success of the missions, a certain element of surprise, but I did say at that time that we'd be foolish to lower our guard, because erm there was still a lot of work to do, and that is exactly what it's turning out to be, and we're going for his military installations, and he's got a lot of them, and it's a wearing down process. +The tornados highly effective runway-busting bombs carry a personal message to Saddam Hussein from the R A F. +To keep the planes aloft, the ground crews work round the clock. +They are all pumped up at the moment. +There's a lot of adrenalin flowing, and erm they realise that there are pink bodies on the line, and they take a great deal of care in preparing the outfit before they go. +Tragically, not all their aircrews have come home. +Two R A F tornados have already been lost. +We were pretty hacked off, but we've got to move on, we've got a job to do. +Quickly put it out of your minds and carry on with the task in hand. +For the ground crews there is barely time to think as they bomb up the tornados for yet another sortie. +Out in the gulf a tommahawk missile drills up into the ink-black sky fired from the U S battle ship Wisconsin. +Deep down in a blue half light of the control room, American sailors huddle over their radar screens, plotting its progress towards Iraq. +The screen show the scale of the Gulf battle fleet, ringed on the right, H M S Gloucester, part of the Royal Navy contingent. +Another launch pod is raised for action. +The crews missile arm is dispatched. +Eight, seven, six, five, four, three, two, one, one. +It's all away. +Yes sir. +Over a hundred tommahawks have been fired from warships, pre-programmed with detailed pictures of their targets. +This multi-national airforce is now running two thousand missions a day. +Among the crews, Royal Saudi pilots determined to protect their country, as another night began with warnings of possible Iraqi air attacks. +The Royal prince at the controls +the machine. +Noone knows just how much damage has been inflicted on the Iraqi airforce. +In an effort to ensure there will be no counterstrike the Royal Saudi pilots forsook the Muslim holy day today to fly their missions, a reminder that religious and political loyalties could be severely tested if Israel was to join the allied force. +Jeremy Thompson, News at Ten, in Eastern Saudi Arabia. +The German chancellor beset with the economic burdens of absorbing the old East Germany is delighted to have found an ally, John Major. +Both believe it would be a good idea to slow the momentum towards economic and political union in Europe. +But both men are saying that quietly, while trumpeting their credentials as good Europeans, almost a mirror-image of Mrs Thatcher's approach to Europe. +With the Gulf War over, the German leader's anxious to dispel doubts that his country can be counted on in a crisis, and there are moves underway to change the German constitution, at least to allow German soldiers to join United Nations military peace-keeping operations. +The world has no reason to doubt that this entente is based on a genuine personal chemistry, significant differences remain, on areas as critical as the role of a European central bank. +However, none of that is in evidence today, as the two leaders addressing each other as John and Helmut, and payed homage to the European ideal. +I am sure myself that Europe is stronger when Britain, France and Germany are working together, and Britain is paying a full part at the very centre of the European community. +As for Mrs Thatcher's weekend warning about a federal Europe dominated by Germany +Well, we were discussing my comments today on the on the erm relationship between the two countries, and I think you have just heard what they were. +In his speech at the headquarters of the German conservative party, he developed that theme: co-operation in Europe, not confrontation. +My aims for Britain in the community can be simply stated. +I want us to be where we belong, at the very heart of Europe. +But he made it clear Britain would fight its corner. +Britain will relish the debate and the argument. +That is the essence of doing business in today's community, and we want to arrive at solutions which will enable us to move forward more united and not less. +That is why we think it better the change in the community should be of an evolutionary rather than of a revolutionary kind. +Gone is the strong language of Mrs Thatcher's eighty-eight speech in Bruges, when she berated European rhetoric which didn't address the practical problems of European unity. +We have not successfully rolled back the frontiers of the state in Britain, only to see them reimposed at a European level, with a European superstate exercising a new dominance from Brussels. +Now, Mr Major wants his Bonn speech to set the tone of future relations with Europe. +While that won't please some of his backbenchers, others will breath a sigh of relief that at least Britain will no longer seem to be standing alone against the rest of the community. +Mark Webster, News at Ten, Bonn. +Helicopters in heavily armed formation brought the allied commanders to their meeting with Iraqi generals, the rendezvous, an Iraqi airbase occupied by coalition forces. +Desert Storm commander, General Norman Schwarzkopf described it as an historic day: a day to make it clear who was in charge. +I'm not here to give them anything, I'm here to tell them exactly what we expect them to do. +The Iraqi military leaders were arriving out of sight of cameras, under allied escort, and stripped of their weapons. +Now I don't want to embarrass them in any way. +No sir. +There I don't want them to know anything . +The rival generals faced each other across a wooden table in a green desert tent, General Schwarzkopf sitting with Saudi commander general, Prince Karla pin Sultan. +Among the allied delegation, British commander, General de la Billiere. +Opposite, grim faced, the Iraqi chief of operations, and the commander of Iraq's third army core, generals who'd seen forty-one of their divisions destroyed or captured. +There were no smiles, no ritual handshakes. +They left after less than two hours of talks to report back to Saddam Hussein on the face of it having agreed to all allied demands. +The most important point that we discussed was the immediate release of all prisoners of war. +The details of this release must be worked out by the international Red Cross. +We have also made it very clear that upon the signing of a cease fire, but not before, all coalition forces will be drawn back from Iraqi territory that we currently occupy. +Allied commanders seemed delighted at the outcome. +They said the Iraqi leaders had already given details of P O Ws. +They gave us a consolidated figure of various numbers of P W's that are held, and of the numbers of erm dead that are held. +And I don't want to give those figures at the present time. +But do you accept + +And don't talk stupid because it's for a it's for a special project. +What? +That they're collecting all different types of speech together. +Oh right. +So I'm allowed to record you. +Okay? +Yes. +Good. +Look you're cleaning this with erm +That box. +This. +With this. +And this. +And this. +And this. +And this. +Whoops! +Bugger! +All those. +Let's have a look. +Now this one, if yo , you can work out how it works, cos I can't work out how to get that antiperspirant to go on your body. +It's a bit stupid. +Like that. +What did you do? +Just push it up the bum. +Well I couldn't work out how to do that! +Oh oh. +What have you done now? +I pushed it right out. +Push it, when you want it, just push it up there +Yeah. +so it comes out. +And I was trying like, I was going like that for ages. +Push it like that. +Oh don't, oh don't waste it. +Look at the state of your hands! +What's wrong with them? +Beautiful! +They're beautiful! +They are beautiful! +You could do nail varnish commercials with hands like that, you really could. +I really need to don't I? +Anna works on a farm and in her spare time paints her nails! +A shocking red colour. +What's this then, bubble bath? +Well read the bottle and it'll tell you? +It doesn't say. +Oh it's shower gel that one. +It fell off when I was in the pool. +This is shower +Ooh! +gel. +This is shower gel. +Oh no, they're both shower gels. +That came with the last lot that I got. +And that one came with this +It smells nice. +one. +But when when erm when I unwrapped it, cos it had a bottle a , that big bottle with it as well, that little bot , where's the little bottle? +Had a what bottle with it? +It had a big bottle of Georgio with it. +Oh right. +And that little bottle was still half empty, and all the tissue paper inside really smelt heavily of perfume like it had leaked already. +Oh oh. +Well maybe it had gone +. +Oh dear. +You never know. +So you never know really. +Oh. +I was gonna get you a blow up Mr Blobby for Christmas +Were you? +as a joke. +Yeah. +Oh I'd like that. +Tt. +I'd find so many uses for it. +Don't be stupid! +I would have done. +Yeah alright then. +Ha ha ha! +Will Mark want Christmas from me? +No. +A bit early to be thinking about Christmas isn't it? +No it's not , it's only about eight weeks away. +Yeah, but eight weeks is a long time. +No it's not. +Not the way my +Yeah , I don't think yo , you don't have to go round and buy everybody's present out of that catalogue. +I'm not. +No, they're the only two things I'm getting out of there. +Is it? +Yeah. +I'm not getting anything else. +It's all kiddies stuff other than those. +Oh. +So I don't know what else to get. +Erm I dunno, let me have a think. +Yeah, well if you know +There's probably +if you know of a tape he wants or anything, then +Yeah. +I hope +you can get it and I'll +Right. +give you the money for it. +Okay then. +And then you can borrow money out the bank again. +Yeah. +Well yeah. +Yeah. +Good one. +It's a bit dubious voting for people that you +No I can't. +could be anyone. +Clare's done my back +with Clearasil. +No. +Is it itchy? +Yeah. +Well look at it. +. +You can't see anything from there Mark, you've got the +Er Carole, can you sign this loan application, there's a blank +application form here. +Mm, it is bad lately. +You wanna put some erm +You wanna make sure you wash it properly. +Some +A loofah! +I've got you a lo , +You've got a back cleaner here. +Yeah , I've got you loofah. +Just do it Carole. +Is that to take out? +Oh! +There's your keys. +Oh great! +Find a, oh. +Hello. +Oh yes, I meant to ring you last night, but things +Sorry you're a bit late. +overtook me really. +Nigel and Doug. +Broken his arm. +Oh right. +Yes,. +I bet you were planning on your twenty . +No I'm not . +You won't frighten me with telling me +Yeah cos, my mates were telling me the other day what's Gilly said? +Who? +Marcus . +Marcus? +Yeah. +I know he's +I'll sort him out! +my little +Course he won't! +Very +He'll bore them rigid! +very , very new. +Yeah, but he'll +he'll bore them to death. +He'll actually bore them for me. +Hundred million crap jokes ! +Yeah, I'll give him a try. +Can he stay there? +And once you make the joke, and I always tell jokes that make them laugh. +Where's the delivery? +See, that's a joke . +Oh oh. +I presume David's there next week. +Who's that? +He goes here there and everywhere. +Marvellous! +Oh well David's not like that, he's well Mark's just had a bit of luck he's just . +That's three thousand pounds for a +I know. +new suite to be cleaned. +Just er, I shall spend it. +Mm. +You'll do what? +No I've given up on him. +You must get, you must hear that new song it's really good. +He's not had a chance yet. +No. +David Jensen's playing like it's going out of fashion ! +Does David want ? +What's the matter? +Nothing. +Oh. +No that's fine. +What? +No, no, he's, he's alright. +They got . +Is the tape running? +Yeah. +Sorry? +Doesn't go very far though does it? +Oh I hope so . +No. +I'm fed up with it. +Sorry? +What colour? +It's a mixture of colours. +Erm it's sort of like lines, you have a bit like paint, you know that sort of erm it's like paint brush stripes. +You know, and there's just short little, like brush marks. +Do you know +Mm mm. +you have wallpaper like it sometimes. +Oh well, very trendy? +It's a bit like, it's the same sort of idea as that sleeping bag you've got, you know, little short dashes of paint +Mm. +of colour. +Oh I see. +And erm it's +We don't have to whisper, they're not listening . +But it's a bit erm +Was it expensive? +About er,ne , nearer two thousand than, than a thousand. +Well these garish things always are. +I mean, for that I could have, do a lovely one for under, a reasonable price, and they're going straight for the cord. +Yeah. +Comes with matching pouffe and things like that. +Never mind. +Mm. +They'll never know. +Mm. +Have to be careful when you're talking about that cos +Mm mm. +cos you might say to Mark, oh have a listen to my recording +I'll tell him! +I'll tell him to his face I think his parent's sofa's not very nice. +. +Well they're not gonna hear. +? +I doubt it. +I don't lie to him especially as we've got a obviously. +Who's this? +Peter Sissons, that's it. +I knew it was something along those lines. +Ooh! +Can I ask you, could you do some photocopying for me tomorrow? +Yeah. +I need these log sheets cos they didn't leave us any log sheets. +Mm. +Erm +And Sarah sounds like a ship doesn't it? +And we're sailing on, we're sailing on the Sarah Bell. +Alright? +Okay? +So erm just mention obviously our connection +Okay. +you know. +You can have that back now. +Right. +Thank you. +Er erm +Er erm, what have you used +Did you get the piece on ? +as well? +I wouldn't bother with that one. +Right. +These three just be +Okay? +really off. +I'll erm +Okay. +Just do that one. +And yeah, do that one +Oh right. +and also +Mm. +I think they were out all day today actually. +Yeah. +Who's it for? +Yeah. +This guy, Oliver .? +He's er +Oh yeah , he's the one we sent a list to the other day. +Yeah. +And erm, he's very, he's got a house with, er somewhere with Lords but he doesn't really wanna take it's a little bit complicated +Where? +he's got his deposit tied up with Lords at the moment +Mm. +and they've got all the rest of it sorted out so it's quite easy to +I have already, I, I , obviously as you know, I've got the new towns. +move in quickly if we can agre , agree with Lords +Mm mm mm +Shall I have that one? +Possibly. +See if they're there? +Yep. +Erm +Yeah. +No, no, no, no, I don't think it she's a bit of shrewd old pigeon isn't she? +I think we're gonna have to watch her? +I'm gonna, I'm gonna phone them now anyway and see if they can at least come into you. +Okay? +Cos I mean, I've got a couple of people who wanna view it already. +You got anybody else round? +Okay. +I'll, I'll give her a bell anyway and when this geezer's coming into you. +Yeah. +The money yesterday, it's alright rub it in! +Go on! +It's my, it's my birthday Monday and I'm just, my wife's taking me really? +Was it? +Oh thanks for telling us! +Yeah I'd rather do it Monday. +Perhaps you'd have let me know we could have gone for a beer. +So +Yeah. +I mean, well +Well we didn't get any better +Yes we are. +Yes. +be in over the weekend. +Alright. +Okay . +I'll speak to you soon. +Right. +Bye +But is it a similar design to this one Catherine? +No, they're two totally different properties. +Have you, got, not got written details? +One of , the things that +Yeah. +that I've done. +Right. +Hello Mr ? +Hello from Alberford. +Hello to you. +Erm, any luck with those keys yet? +Were you, sure. +Right okay. +If you mind that anyway, cos I may have a couple of people er that may want a few of them to, spoken to Dav , David , he's got one or two as well. +Hello is that Cyndy ? +Alright well yo , okay. +If that's okay with you? +That's fine. +We'll leave it like that. +Hi, it's Clare from Prudential. +Alright. +Hello. +Erm I've had a gentleman on the phone this morning we have on our listings, I'm quite interested for him to have a look at the +Er, yes possible. +I mean out of the three that he saw and prefer, I must admit he did prefer forty four. +Erm +property sometime today. +he's going away to think about it. +I mean, obviously,whe whether or not he was absolutely +Er, I wondered if that was possible. +one hundred and ten percent serious. +Erm yeah. +Really? +Oh that is great! +Yeah but certainly the three he saw +I mean I know he's going to be out sometime this afternoon, so I think any time after about six o'clock +erm, he saw two before forty four and preferred forty four for the size of the . +would be suitable for +Right? +him. +I'll let you know as soon as I know. +Alright Mr ? +Thanks. +Bye . +Okay. +Hello. +Right. +So if we said erm sort of seven o'clock? +Would that be okay? +Yep. +Okay. +His name is Oliver . +Okay? +And I'll send him along at seven then? +That's lovely. +Thank you. +Bye-bye . +David, +Hello +Gary. +Hello. +Would it be possible to speak to Oliver ? +Right I've just spoken . +Erm it's not +It's Clare from the Prudential. +Thank you. +Oh. +Well I know. +Just thought I'd call you. +Alright? +So you could, yeah, you've got his telephone number anyway, so you can also phone him at the same time. +I just said, look, you know, silly really, cos I mean, he knew I had a couple of people, erm, you know, Monday and Tuesday, before Monday and Tuesday and er you know, you got erm you need a couple of people as well, so if you don't mind coming over from , it's entirely up to you. +Hello. +Yeah, erm, if you could ask him to give me a call +Yeah, fair enough. +I mean it's the best way to do it anyway, anyway, we shouldn't have. +Alright? +Cheers. +Bye . +on ? +I've managed to make him an appointment for one of the properties we were discussing earlier. +Er er +Yeah. +And my name's Clare. +Okay, thank you. +Bye- bye . +I went to see Sleepless in Seattle last night. +It was lovely! +Oh oh! +Cath wants to take me to see it? +What was it like? +Well, it depends whether you li , it's a bit of a sort of old-fashioned weepy but it was really good. +In other words Cath wants to see me crying. +It was ,it was really sweet. +Ah? +Mm mm. +Mm. +That's that +Good morning Prudential can I help you? +Certainly. +Who's calling? +Yeah. +Right, hold on a moment please Sarah for you. +For me? +Yes. +Good morning, Gary speaking, can I help you? +Oh right. +Right. +Thank you for telling us. +So, your property's still available? +Right. +Right. +Okay. +You both seem with the situation in hand . +So is Adam just off for a week or is it a fortnight? +No, just off for a week. +Oh +He wasn't gonna take any. +I said to him, you need it, you know just go. +It's, it's okay I mean when he's away things go, actually things go a lot smoother. +Sorry? +Things go a lot smoother when he's not here. +Mm mm. +It's a shame, what yo , I think you could really do with is somebody sort of part-time who is kind of flexible on, on when they're part-time so they could fit in with the with the sort of fluctuation +that the, the busyness goes in. +Well I was hoping, yeah exactly. +I mean, you obviously know what I want here, but I mean I was hoping that Yvonne would come across and work maybe two stroke three days a week for me even when +Yeah. +I needed to. +But, her husband's just sta , or the boyfriend, the boyfriend's just started up a new company +Mm. +and that erm, that ain't gonna be possible unfortunately. +Oh dear. +Was erm is it Lorraine doing some work, is she doing some work for you? +Is it Lorraine? +Julie? +I forget which, yeah, whichever one of Graham's sister's has got all those children . +Oh Julie, yeah. +You know, cracks in the walls. +Erm, yeah she is, but she's doing, you know these calls I've been receiving. +She's been doing the canvass one, canvass two, and canvass three. +Oh right. +Erm I got, I mean, er er, she's, she's like part-time canvassing for me at the moment. +You know, everything I've got in my bottom drawer she does anyway. +Yeah. +Or all the ones that need sold, you know, got nice photographs of all the sold boards, and what I want her to do now is go and literally go and traipse the streets +Mm mm. +whereby we've sold a sold a property in those roads and erm deliver leaflets either side +Yeah. +and six doors up, six doors down from the one we've sold and get a coloured photograph so that's the next campaign going out. +Yeah. +She works for me in that side. +Erm erm, she's not really, not really a typist. +No. +Er er so it's difficult. +I mean, when, when Yvonne comes in, blimey! +I mean,sh , talk about work her socks off! +Erm, she's in at ten o'clock and she just does not stop until four o'clock. +Mm mm. +She did she did nine nine instructions for me last week. +The week before that it must have been eleven, twelve. +Have you seen the top drawer? +No. +God! +Twenty thousand pounds worth of sales in the bottom drawer now. +Oh that's brilliant! +And there's six thousand pounds worth of financial services. +That's excellent! +So just over half way in a year. +No, I love it to bits, but I just wish there was some assistance in the office. +Yeah. +It's difficult, cos I know Adam doesn't like the idea of employing secretaries he likes the idea to sort of to, to maximize by having somebody that does both. +But I think there is a case for +Well it's blatantly taking the piss, let's be honest, I mean, I can't muck around, I mean it's blatantly taking the piss isn't it? +Yeah. +I mean +You know +I think there is a case, especially, and not so much with the letters because there is a minimal amount of, of secretarial work, but with something like that I think you would really do with somebody who's just there basically to type and +Mm. +answer the phone +Mm. +Mm. +and not have to keep stopping and starting and +That's right. +But I mean, it's getting to the stage now where it's gonna become counter-productive, well, for me cos it's got to such a point now where I've got exchanges going through, I've got erm sales going through, details to be typed, canvassing going out, instructions, appointments to make, the outcomes +Yeah. +a therefore, like Catherine's in a situation herself and she'll obviously vouch for it, I cannot get my applicants. +No. +If I could get my applicant, you see if, let's say we pay somebody, I dunno fifty, sixty quid a week, fifty quid a week to come and for, two mornings, three mornings, or whatever that'll then give me enough time to contact the applicants and then ma , maybe maybe two stroke three sales extra per month. +Mm. +Half a sale would pay +Yeah. +the annual salary for this so-called +Yeah. +part-timer. +But I've got to the stage now where I, I cannot erm I cannot do any more. +No. +I was even, you know, obviously you can worry about sending the stuff, this canvass three out purely because the the amount of instructions I had to do last week. +Mm mm. +I'm, I'm glad they're coming on, we seem to be taking on more than hopefully the old, the old wages at the moment, which is encouraging. +It's the erm . +Right. +Now it's actually at the midla down in Yule, which is the far side of erm Tulworth. +Yep. +Mhm. +Is that gonna be suitable for you really? +Okay then. +Well not to worry, I'll cancel that one. +Erm I'm afraid that property's now gone. +Yeah. +Tt. +I don't have anything else that I could show you at the moment I'm afraid. +That's about it. +Mhm. +What's your upper price limit? +Eight hundred. +Eight fifty. +Mhm. +Okay then. +Well if anything comes up I'll call you. +Yup. +Yeah. +I would be very surprised if a property on at nine fifty would be dropped much below nine hundred because, obviously they have a, they have a certain that they need to get and I I'd be surprised if they'd go sort of much below fifty pounds less a month than they've advertised it for. +And if anybody wants a drink or anything er er, there's Coke behind, if anybody wants a coffee or you know, just shout. +Mm. +I'll get the slave outside to do that one. +I can say that now +cos she can't hear. +Lucky. +What's this then? +Right. +Are we gonna make a move then? +I mean +Erm , yeah. +I'm frightened to +Yeah. +without, without +The tape is on. +It's going. +It's on? +Yes, yes. +Oh so we've already been had. +What yes. +That is one month's +Alright. +Yes, yes. +Yeah. +But before the +meeting can I just +I'd like to give something to Chris actually. +Oh dear! +And I have an apology to make. +This is the reason for this is it? +That is right ! +Nearly a year too late. +I found them in my room. +I must say that. +Ah ah ah, that's it. +And if you have with Carole +So it was you all the time. +it's surprising he's found them this +He will but +it could have been three years time before that surfaced. +You're a right plonker Mark! +Agree with that. +Alright. +Thank you. +Yes, you go in by +Yeah . +You can say to the secretary. +Right. +Better make a start then. +Apologies for absence for Sir who is in Fiji. +Erm +urgh urgh urgh! +But not yet +he's not. +Wurgh urgh urgh! +Well he's on his way to Fiji via Melbourne +He's nearly there. +and er, Auckland is he? +Au , +Why? +Oh that's when I was there. +Er, it's the only way you can get there apparently. +So you fly to the +This, this +No, but why's he going? +Erm +To visit his brother. +because his brother who likes listening to erm, erm air traf , sounds +Oh part of the air waves , yes. +erm finds that the Fiji air controls are the most fascinating in the world. +And his brother's out there at the moment listening to the erm you know, the aircraft co +Oh that's very nice. +No he's on a round the world ticket, it's cost him eleven pound. +And fly into New Zealand I would have thought on the +Yeah. +Was that the bloke who played soft ball with us last year? +Er er +Yes it was. +yeah. +Yeah. +Oh yeah. +He came to watch Wimbledon Y S A once +How much is that costing him, a round the world ticket? +Well it's only costing Eddie's brother a hundred erm one thousand one hundred pounds. +Only! +But it's costing Eddie about nine hundred pound, and the only way he can get there is this kind of ticket which goes with, like I say Hong Kong +We , we'll +erm +Very nice too! +How long for? +How long is that? +He's only , he's only going for a couple of weeks +Mm. +and then he's back, he's back. +Erm +Oh well. +No he's going for over two weeks. +Yeah? +He'll be knackered by the time he, when he gets back. +I thought he was going for three weeks. +Oh. +Oh he might be away for thre , cos I know he had golf at the Belfry this week, and then when he comes back he's being picked up by a car to take him to the Belfry again, cos we're entertaining there for a weekend's golf. +But you can't, you can't play golf. +Yeah. +Tough life! +It is. +It is innit? +Eh? +I dunno whether, how he's gonna get on. +At the back +Yeah. +whole +hardly +Yeah. +still usable though. +Yeah. +Better have, have two +We are gonna get new ones? +Well, I dunno, can't afford it. +You can fill that in can't ya? +Yeah. +Let's face it, don't want get to the table anyway. +The head was in the way anyway. +I think he'll select his course +But he won't +It probably, probably cracking now. +So, make a start then. +Right. +First to obviously confirm that the A G M is for the er eleventh of er November. +You've paid the money haven't you Mark? +Yes. +Yes I have. +Cos every time you pay the money. +Yeah. +Right. +Erm so it'll be upstairs in the Green +Green Man is +The deposit for the Green Man I paid it. +A very +Right. +nice young lady behind the bar. +Erm +Sorry Claire. +Erm, first thing I ne +Oh, oh yeah ! +fir , first thing I need to know is I have +Cor ! +I've not booked up erm Cricket next, yet erm because I wanted to come to the meeting and ask erm you know what night, and also what period? +I mean, last year we went back to Wednesday nights and we booked up erm I think it was five er weeks er th , the five Wednesdays of March. +Did we have two nets on? +We had two nets +Yeah. +er, we had five weeks. +Yeah. +Erm as Eddie's sent this thing here, this minus seventy pound nett, that is the nett difference that is the cost erm of what it cost us to actually hire the nets less the one pound fifty er per person, er per session that was paid, so that is the nett difference because we come there. +So it's a case of asking what nights. +The reason say that is that I mean, Wednesday erm nights is, if you like, football nights. +I know it wasn't too bad last year erm I think it's either at a Wednesday or Thursday. +I know Steve asked if we could go back to Thursdays cos he can't make a Wednesday night. +And er, and that's the main thing isn't it ? +That's right, you +Yeah. +know. +Well it's, it's not that I mean I'm just trying to see +I see, you know. +Well +Cos I was thinking +What? +I'm thinking of you guys like with your Palace, I mean, you're gonna have some Wednesday nights coming up for promotion. +Mm mm. +Erm +No, we'd have +and jus +already got it by then. +Well, then you'd probably wanna go and see if they can +you know +No, actually Palace, to be fair Palace very rarely play on a Wednesday. +They usually play +Don't they? +on a Tuesday. +Yeah. +For the time being. +Right. +Yeah. +Yeah. +Tomorrow night, I know. +Yeah, I'm working this week. +Oh. +Yeah. +Anyway, so that's the first thing, what erm you know, which, what do you wanna keep it Wednesdays and do the same as +Yeah. +last year or do you wanna go to Thursdays or +Keep it to Wednesday. +I think Thursdays is fine. +Get Steve +Can't be Wednesdays +Are they +Well +Get Steve down there and +Does it matter? +Do you wanna fight about it? +Jus th , the it didn't seem to alter too much the, the people +No. +who attended last year. +Apart from Steve , I don't think there appeared to be anyone who turned round and said look they couldn't do it. +So therefore, if we go back to Thursdays Steve +Mm. +can come down. +And to be fair to Steve, he was absolutely crap cricketer +and er is now +Still is. +now got a bit better. +His batting +For not getting it in the nets. +Cos he didn't go to that's why! +Well I think old Steve, he thoroughly enjoys himself +Oh yeah. +er , and he, he's +He's on an abseiling weekend though. +absolutely useless in the field and we want to, oh well +Mm. +bring him out of +Well that's why I delayed it cos I mean he is actually keen to come, and he was very disappointed last year but obviously he pu +Mm mm. +puts the band before us, but er so I'll go to Thursdays then on, on er +I would think so, yeah. +and keep five, five erm, well, you know the Thursdays of March and two nets? +Yep. +Okay. +We could even le +We certainly need more than one net. +Yeah, I don't know how well they'd get offended if we +Yeah it was alright. +There were quite, there were quite of times +I like nets, I think nets is excellent. +I think +Yeah. +we could have more, the more nets the better. +It's, it's no extra +We could go about having a quarter of an hour batting +Carrying it out +if you can have a quarter of an hour's batting each +We can bowl from the side. +We need them high up. +Mm. +But we, there were too many people for two nets last year to have +Yeah. +quarter of an hour. +Well yes. +Sometimes we were struggling to get ten minutes each. +Though the nets were well attended. +Yeah. +Yeah. +Cos even John and George was sort of coming from end to another. +Well yeah, that's right. +Yeah. +Tony came round to bat for us didn't he? +And Andrew 'll come this year. +Yeah, I mean, obviously erm , I think we originally moved back from Thursdays to Wednesdays because on Thursdays I think erm +EastEnders. +there was a lot of people who couldn't make it. +I think Steve was going to a first aider or something, and there was quite a few different people. +On that subject, obviously next year, er bearing in mind that we've agreed as a committee to go for twelve matches on Sundays +Aha. +erm, we gotta bear in mind that a lot of these er younger players are now gonna be away at erm college, university whatever. +Erm and that +Yeah , that's true up to a point, but you've gotta remember though that that only affects the first half, or first bit of season. +Cos they're all still here until the end of the season cos they don't go back . +Yeah. +Yeah, that's true. +But obviously with twelve matches I'm not gonna be able to spread it like I did last year. +Well no , you've got more at the end as opposed to the +Yeah. +beginning. +But then er +But then they're back for it. +but then it clashes with +Yes they are aren't they? +that clashes with the erm with the football which we're trying to avoid. +Well, we +erm +could can't we? +There's not too much on the football front +I don't think it does really. +on Sundays in Septembers. +No. +Yeah. +I'm gonna have to spread them out anyway and erm it could be a problem. +I don't think there's many of them that go to football anyway is there? +Well it's not +I mean +it's not necessarily going +It's not is it? +And it's not so much +And i if you got +people it's actually using the pitches. +some of the taking exams as we had this year, they, they +Oh, I see what you mean. +the fact +Well that's +they couldn't play. +Yeah. +That's right. +It was half of +That was in. +the season because apparently +Exams. +they do it more and more this year. +Yeah. +And we're gonna have, obviously have to avoid the two Sundays from the tour. +Mm. +And it does, with twelve you are and obviously I'm depending upon another team to +Are we +come play us this year. +decided who we're gonna play with the twelve fixtures against you? +Mm. +Erm well +gonna play them all against Sutton Partisans. +That's right, yeah ! +Erm +They out-rank us. +Yeah, I I do +Well I see nothing wrong with that at all. +I got a rough idea of who erm we're kind of er playing contact. +Course. +Cos the the bloke from the B B C doesn't want to play us now cos we're too good, I mean +Well I mean, I don't +Really? +Is that right? +want a ga +Is that right? +Yeah. +Mm. +I was gonna go +This was the same youngsters that were playing two years ago. +So you're gonna go one with them? +Yeah. +I was only gonna +go one with them anyway. +If erm +I think you might be able to swing one. +Mm. +Yeah, I mean I was gonna go, one Sutton Partisans, one for the +B B C +Oh I think Sutton Partisans we could go two. +Yeah, but a cracking place to go and play for +Yeah. +Yeah. +only one. +that, that that +We're looking four. +This is the thing. +Yeah. +But they're a really nice bunch +of blokes. +I know but +Yeah. +really it +er we erm +and they'll probably get two pitches or something . +Pay your money for it . +Mm. +Yeah. +The er Wi Witham second eleven I'm still gonna, gonna keep that one in. +Erm got a fixture just off the press +Cos we played them twice Witham didn't we? +Yeah, not if not if we're going to that pub. +No. +They +th , that could be decided, but Walton Heath Sports. +What is wrong with the Robin Hood? +Walton Heath Sports? +Yeah, we played them once before. +Who's that then? +I dunno. +Erm, in fact that's where Andy got his top score +You've not been there before. +against, Andy's top score's against Walton Heath Sports. +But that's erm, that's be an away match, that's at Walton Heath near where the golf course is there. +That's the guy who I work with. +Erm, that is very much medium er er week, and probably more medium that medium week. +Erm obviously keep the score figure,fig , figure if we can. +That's alright, bring them on. +Bring them up. +I ke , I was keeping the two with Strenewe cos that's a nice venue +Yeah. +and erm +That we , about the best. +Well yeah, about the best +I like playing Strenewe. +games we play actually on a Sunday. +Yeah. +We want erm Tony wanted to play us, the Sunday side twice erm +The Shamrocks. +Yeah. +Great. +which is again, er I dun , one of the guys at work, another guy at work come which is quite a, well it's near Guildford, Primchet, which is quite a good quite a good +side. +But he knows actually what we're trying to do on a Sunday, and they either like to play us, er er once or twice and they got a reasonable ground. +And I was trying to, gonna move the was gonna discuss with you first, but Croydon see, so they're actually not Croydon Rank, they're Croydon, but anyway +Mm mm. +you know what I mean, erm to play them on a Sunday which +Mm mm. +I know, I'm saying we're trying to improve the strength but we still have +Mm. +the Partisans who may be a little bit weaker, and certainly Croydon Rank is on a Sunday erm rather than Saturday. +Cos +Maybe they want to come here. +the Saturday +Yeah, we want somebody, you gotta remember, it's the only side that is ever so slightly weaker than the Saturday side. +Yeah, I mean +Er +it was a waste of time on a Saturday really, I mean, I think the, I mean Andy said we could have +That was alright. +we could have had it all over by three o'clock. +Well we're that's +They're further. +but it's all, it was all down to the captain +It was on the other side. +though really, I thought, that day. +Definitely. +Mm. +Definitely. +The captain was superb that day. +Go cra , er the er +What the captain? +No. +The ca +the captain on the day was batting and batting and batting himself until he got to seventy +Yeah I know ! +and then he declared. +Tell me all about it. +Yeah. +Oh yeah. +Like the balls +It was raining at the time. +so erm +Did we win though? +Cos I mean our, did we win? +Say no,ju , if th if this is +right this will improve the er improve the strength. +Now see I'm looking at this here, right, just for fitting in twelve games I mean, I'm gonna have to start the first of May. +Erm so that'll include September the fourth which is my last Sunday one, September the fourth. +Er, because also yo you really don't wanna play like three consecutive Sundays, but on some of you these yo we may even have to. +It is difficult. +Hang on, the play I was gonna +May I, can I ask you a question Brian? +Yeah. +Why do you write on such small pieces of paper? +Er, this is not +I mean, just wondered really. +I haven't got the things yet, I mean I have to +First of May , if we get rid of the youngsters, first of May might be a bit of problem cos there's +Mm. +probably a cup final and they're still playing football on the first of May. +Mm mm. +It's the week after that that they really start playing. +Yeah I know, I've got that pencilled in for something. +I mean that, that early fixture we struggle on a Saturday sometimes don't we? +Down at erm +Yes. +Yeah. +erm where are they? +Kinsbury. +Kingsbury. +Is that the erm, bank holiday? +It will be. +It will be. +Er +It will be weren't it? +It's always the first Monday of the er +Yeah. +I've got a feeling that bank holiday won't, probably not the world's greatest +Mm mm. +time to start. +I don't see any reason this year why you shouldn't go get another fixture on th , the Sunday in September. +Yeah, mid-September. +Yeah. +Either the eleventh or the eight, eighteenth. +After the fourth, you've got the eleventh. +On the eleventh. +And if , only if we're guided by football, they're playing in the morning, they'll finish, they'll, they don't play in the, in the +Yeah. +afternoon. +Okay. +Well we'll, I'll put that in. +And ah +See I haven't got the games around there. +I think Andy's , what time, when do your lot play? +I think they start on the eighteenth +dunnit? +Yeah. +usually. +Er, if you did the eleventh, the fourth or the eleventh +Yeah, it might be. +should be alright. +Mm. +And take away the one at the beginning of May +I would have thought. +Yeah. +What time is it? +Oh well, I just say, I mean a lot depends on when other teams can play us. +Cos I wanna get +Yeah. +we wanna get decent away matches and not to er have to have too many home games. +Er right, okay. +I might let out tonight actually. +Yeah. +That's right. +Anyway, the poi , the other thing is erm then obviously this re , concerns really you know, you two at the moment, but, players for next year, I mean bearing in mind we are gonna lose a few. +Erm +George for example, erm +Mm. +certainly is going. +Mhm mm. +Erm, and what I said about the erm +We had a player who Ha? +what I said about the er +George didn't play a lot really. +He didn't play an awful lot this year, no. +No he didn't. +Erm, but on the other hand we had early season, you know, from Stuart and he seemed to interest in away but I don't know why he didn't play much at the end of the season. +Oh he was er, playing fa football for Eagle Star. +Fa football? +And five-a- side stuff. +Mm mm. +Well erm +And he got the hots for a girl as well which didn't help. +Oh well. +Ah well, yeah, okay. +Well what I was thinking is, I mean +That'll +I don't know if you Wallington Cottages are gonna +That's what we're talking about now I think . +if Wallington Cottages are gonna break up. +But if they're not gonna break up, I mean, there are some pretty disillusioned players there. +I think they +Erm +will stay together. +Cos I was talking to Brian +Yeah. +We'll grab them! +cos I think he's gonna be Captain next year. +Is he? +Yeah. +Oh, well I se +We'll miss their pitch for sure. +He's erm, he's after the +It's a damn nice pitch that! +he's after, he's been after trying to Captain the side +Oh. +next year. +Shocker! +Oh that's shame cos I what about, I mean I was thinking of erm, John sa , John , you know Andrew's brother? +Cos he's a really you know nice guy and +Yes, as long as you keep the ball. +He's in the side. +Yeah I was gonna say +No I think you ought to take him because then I don't have to place a man . +He can't +er I mean he can't +What is it? +do anything else other than keep wicket. +Mm. +Yeah. +And talk the hind legs off a donkey. +Er well no we've got a ni , there's no need Brian. +Eh? +He talks the hind legs off a donkey. +Yeah. +But he's boring +But he's go , he's +as well dead boring. +but he's a good +Well yeah. +Like Marcus is in +He, he's, he's a, he's, he's +Yeah. +He's a +No, no, no. +He's worse than Marcus. +Marcus is, you can have a bit of a laugh with Marcus, but I mean er +John is a bit more serious isn't he? +John's serious, you can't he is dead serious all the time and it is a +sometimes a great effort to get away from him ! +I thought he might be good also from the erm, you know, trying to get a decent pitch and things like that. +You know, I mean I know he said that the best thing, decision we ever made was not to go to erm Raynes Park because the wicket really has deteriorated on that, but he has a lot of contacts and things. +And I didn't think he was that happy with Cottages, and in fact, I thought he was gonna leave anyway. +He has left, really. +He has left +Yeah. +now yeah. +After that game. +He is left. +Yeah. +Cos he came round the next week and talked to me, he had a quick chat with me for about three hours! +I mean, apart from keep wicket, I mean does he bat? +I mean er +No. +In fact he doesn't does he? +I got him out first ball. +I, I just thought +Well er +I'd add that in. +depends on how they're playing I guess. +Be , I used to bloody give them not-out by the umpire. +Oh! +Was that you? +Yeah. +But he walked. +But he walked. +And he said hello to you. +That's what I mean, he's a nice gu +I mean there's that many . +No, no there's no room. +I mean, do we want these kind of people in our team? +Well I du , I mean I dunno but I just +I mean Brian I know yo , you know you but, I just feel that we might +Next question please? +struggle next year. +I know I say this every year but I, I, I just thought we might +You just wanna be a pessimist Brian, you know. +Yes well +well I do feel we might struggle for players. +But bearing in mind we're playing +I mean it might +more matches. +yeah, it might affect us if we're gonna play that mu more matches on a Sunday as well because I don't know how many people will be prepared to turn out on both days. +That's true. +If we need some of the youngsters for Saturday, then are +Mm mm. +they gonna wanna turn out Sunday you know, or vice versa? +Well the youngsters are much more +flexible and much more willing to turn out both days than older folk. +I'm not saying they're not willing, but they've got other drags on them. +If they're at school and they're studying for exams they may not be a la , you know, possible for them to play both days. +That's a fair comment. +I mean Nick +We'll send the boys round and nobble them. +Saturdays innit? +Mm mm. +Mm. +But erm I dunno. +Let's go for a recruitment drive. +I mean who have lost at the +Yeah. +moment? +Talking about George +Yeah , how many +is there anybody else? +How many did I say we were actually talking about Brian? +How many, well, I mean, and i if you like, I mean we've lot, I mean we've lost, I mean he didn't play at all last year, but as Chris said +Mm. +one of the reasons which we lacked last year was er, was a, was a fast, you know, opening bowler. +We lost on er, what's his name? +Mm. +John . +Oh yeah. +Erm +Well +Well he didn't do very much. +we hired him so many times +Yeah. +Yeah. +He didn't really play a match when we played +Yeah. +it. +Erm I doubt, you know he'll come +It's Steve what's his name as well, he never played. +Well he must have once. +Steve ? +. +Yeah I mean he's, he's given up +He's given up now. +he's given up er +He works anyway I think +Mm. +so I mean +Mm. +He's basically kind of given up erm cricket. +I dunno what the situation with Andrew is, cos I mean I heard the rumours that he was gonna for Cheam. +. +. +Oh! +plays for Spurs. +. +Spurs, yeah. +Erm +, +Was he erm +Whatever his name is! +Whatever his name is. +He plays football . +I mean the rumours were that he was gonna go to Cheam, he was supposed to be Saturdays for Cheam. +And how he can afford match fees or anything, cos he's never paid us a penny, I dunno, but +No don't want +Er +him back . +Yes I mean, isn't he still at school? +He's gonna play snooker in a minute. +He is still at school. +No he's at college, no he's at college +Oh no he's at college that's right. +He's, he's at Epsom Art College. +That's right, he is at +Oh right. +art college. +Yes he is. +So I mean I don't know if they +He's at art college football . +I dunno if they've got a cricket team or whatever. +Blimey! +So I'm saying that, you know, it's gotta be a doubt. +Er Dominic who, you know again is the ideal person +But it's not convenient. +if he was a , always available but see you got a lot of, you got a players like Dominic +Stuart, Andrew who is everyone was available we wouldn't have a problem, but +No. +at the end of their they're only gonna +It's always right innit? +if they play half the matches. +I mean, Dominic played eleven. +Well, Dominic would have played more but he couldn't get in the blooming team! +Which was surprising. +Cos some games, he ge , he did get dropped. +Well +I don't think he was available was he? +Brian +No. +says. +Cos he's not available regularly +He was not available. +is he? +No, I can only think, I think there was one game where he was available, but, he was a sort of a late availability and by that time we already had +Oh yeah. +eleven people. +Mm. +But there was only, there was two or three times in all the time. +Well I got it from when he had the +Yeah, he, he, he +Ca , Cameron's, Cameron's gone to to, to University now. +Aha. +Erm Mike, Mike didn't play a lot. +Well he did, Michael's left the game. +He didn't play. +And he's, you know +Erm, anyway, I mean that's a +Where's Paul ? +it's just a +Paul will be +Paul . +Yeah, yeah I mean there's another +great cricketer who only played a couple of times last season, was Dave . +Okay. +Fair enough. +But you've not , you've not had people yet, why can't you er +Dave ? +you could encourage, what's his name? +Neil . +Neil, and Gary. +And Jason. +Do they play cricket do they? +There was Jason, are you gonna try and +Jason? +encourage these guys? +? +Jason . +And Jason , we've gotta try and encourage him. +I, I mean he got bags of possibility there. +I could get the whole of to play with us. +After playing at Colman's Hatch I think. +Now,. +Yeah, see I mean +Oh yeah. +I think Jas +Yeah. +Jason's always been a winner and +Er , er er +Yeah. +I don't think he'd, he'd +And you saying my team of losers Brian? +It's not that. +I ain't playing after that at all. +Nah , but he, he do , what I mean is some people enjoy +Yeah. +it even when we're +That's right. +yeah, but I always get the impression with Jason that he wouldn't enjoy anything unless he +No. +He won it. +unless he won it. +That's right. +No. +Well, that's only my opinion but +No I agree with you. +er erm +Well he had a good start didn't he? +Yeah ! +And er Colman's Hatch is +Did indeed, yeah. +slightly different. +Yeah. +Yeah. +Anyway, just things to bear in mind, right, is that we're having more fixtures next year against a higher standard of opposition, overall erm +Really? +and er, and we've probably got less players. +Er, I just +No , er, it's a fair comment. +Perhaps we should advertise again in the paper. +That's, d'ya remember we got Andy last time we did. +Yeah. +Fat bowlers, d'ya remember that? +An inspired piece of +Remember +that was. +You can actually spell game. +I put on there what he's,do , what he done his er bowling. +Yeah he,bo ,bowl over for twenty seven last +Yeah. +time I think. +Twenty eight. +Yeah. +First ever game. +First ever game. +Yeah. +Some of the things +What in the game? +to come I thought. +Yeah. +The , then he bo bowled +Well that's right. +against +Yeah. +What was that over he +Actually he +bowled against? +B B C. +B B C? +God! +Strewth! +But he hadn't bowled them though +He did bowl quite few actually there. +Talk about under , underground +Yeah. +bowling. +Yeah ! +pathetic! +It was an all-rounder that first year wasn't he? +Yeah. +Mm mm. +Terrible! +God, we had a bad team! +Mm mm. +Shocking! +Hello! +Oh don't worry about that. +Right anyway ,th er next, next thing +That's Andy. +in my notes is that, as I said, the A G M is on the eleventh of er, of November. +Now one of the criticisms that I've had er from the people who prefer to be nameless but always come to me afterwards and say oh it was a waste of time coming. +The committee meetings are the la , er,, committee meetings! +The A G M, the last two years people have said well there's not a great deal of point in coming along other than for a drink because er the committee's got it all sorted out, you know, beforehand as regards who's doing what. +Quite right too. +Erm and er, they say, you know, therefore they don't feel that they've got a voice. +Erm cos +They can disagree if they like. +Well er +If this is the case, how come they go on so blooming long! +Yeah! +Eh? +I find that extremely difficult +I soon find that +Goodness me! +hard to believe . +Yeah. +Everybody, everybody, has their say +Yeah. +and then we do what we want. +Well, to be fair, the A G M's I've been to, they do influence some of +Yeah. +decisions +They have +not all of them +Yeah. +Yeah. +but they +Mm. +er they do influence some of them. +So I'd like to think that er whoever said that is er I think they're wrong. +No it wasn't mine it was, it was er dunno how to say +So what really are they asking? +Admitting it. +Admitting it! +Now come on, look +Admitting it! +mention no name names! +Well admittedly the fierce, the most fierce cricketer of all +Paul +who er +Who's that? +who didn't +Oops! +speak to me for er, for a day afterwards, at least one day, and just said +Nobody. +oh it was a complete waste +of time, er was Alan . +Oh. +And what a great night that was! +Just have to get over it. +But he said the whole thing +That's right. +was a complete, you know +Yeah but why though? +Well I think that +That's right. +probably er +But why? +Yeah. +it su it summarizes the particular, by the bloke. +That's right. +Aha. +Yeah. +Yeah. +Who else? +Come on! +Still we know he's know your mate Brian so we won't say anything nasty +about him. +No I haven't said anything nasty. +No it doesn't matter +So what do they +I don't, I don't work with him any more. +you know +Erm +I don't know who they are. +But I ju , I +So what is it, what is it +I'd just like to know. +what is it they actually want then? +Well I think they would like to feel that, you know, when we say right erm +So they want, nominations for category , +we all, eh,no no nominate Captain, Secretary whatever, that +Yeah. +erm +Like on those +they'd like, like them to come from the floor and not from another from a committee member says, yeah I sponsor Billy , and another committee member says I +Yeah, but the thing is, yeah okay, yeah +but yeah, but the thing is you're gonna get someone saying Mickey, Mickey Mouse or whoever it is,so , you know someone who doesn't wanna stand someone who hasn't been asked. +And we've got this +I don't see a +embarrassment +I mean +of having a vote and so and so gets no +first of all we decided to do this +and they think well blimey +Well put them in the the black box. +nobody likes me, no votes for Captain. +There's nothing to stop them. +Our Jeff goes around and says any more nominations +Yeah. +there's nothing to stop them putting +No, you still have +No course there isn't +anybody in there. +to do that anyway don't you? +Yeah. +Course there is. +Yeah. +But I +You know +think th ,yo , I mean they said, they they feel that it's no point anyway, it's already been decided. +Well, I think they're wrong really. +To a degree they're probably right. +Well I think they are, yeah. +To a degree I mean, I think they're right. +I think they're wrong. +But and th , and the committee has to guide th , otherwise you'd still be there! +If, if there was no guidance coming through from the committee. +Well they vote the committee to er help vote run, to run and make the decisions of the club don't they? +And if they don't want the committee making +No it's not just that. +the decisions of the club do they get another committee? +Well they can cha change it. +What are the club rules? +Well that's what they're saying , they're not, that the committee they say, is basically is voting ourselves back in. +And +What? +I mean, we obviously we +No. +No. +obviously we've got to have someone like in, in erm, with regards administration, we've gotta have someone like, for example +Ooh ooh! +I'm se , I'll be secretary if no one else wants to do it. +I'm just wondering whether we should say, you know +Mm. +nominations for secretary or whatever, and see if other people are willing to do it. +Yeah well the committee members doesn't carry +I thought that's what we did. +any more vote than anybody else. +No, they're not, they're not. +No. +Mm. +It's got one vote, the same as anybody else on the floor. +That's right. +Yeah. +What's our er +Yeah. +club rules say about all this? +I haven't got a copy of club rules. +Nor have I. +Oh! +You know I have. +Yeah, no it's +Why, why didn't you tell me this? +Yeah, Jeff. +I've, I'll have a look anyway. +Oh is this the flaky's gonna produce it is he? +Mr married man's getting Mr flaky now. +If it's the club rules +Don't do it. +you know +Cos he stands up in public. +Er, er, ah , he's got a ca , copy of the club rules. +You should have handed them out. +That's why I was late. +The policy Dave +I just wondered what it said. +I haven't got a clue even when it's here . +Is it about A G M's and things does it? +What does it say? +The off , all officers of the club should be elected at the A G M, which would be held on a . +Yeah. +What does it say about erm pe , erm, mm mm mm mm mm mm mm, er er +It's one man, one vote. +Or one person, one +The persons at A G M should members of the committee at the A G M. +This is a question of +Officers, yeah? +All officers of the club should be elected at the A G M. +Should be held no later than thirtieth of November each year . +When's the er, sorry, when's the A G M this ye , year Dave? +. +Er the eleventh. +One vote for each officer playing a member . +Cos there's nothing in our rules +Is that the book? +about when the nominations have to be in. +No. +So they're aren't any nominations. +There's nothing like there's nothing in there to say that the committee resign en-bloc and shall be allowed to so +Well +all it is, is is if this +unless you get out in a huff. +That's too easy to do. +Nominations on that. +The whole of the, the whole of the A G M has a say there because it's all up for grabs. +Yeah. +No I mean +Mm mm. +There's no way shouldn't +Oh no, they could have a sho , er they have, they agree they've got a say but they just feel that everything is decided so what is the point? +Mm mm. +Erm, you know,the , it's mainly our younger players. +I mean, they, they're saying that you know they,i what's the point? +I mean they, and also a lot of people are shy to once as erm, someone's put up someone else and it's been seconded by two people on the committee they feel there's no point in +I think it's a false argument. +Mm, mm mm. +Mm mm. +So do I somehow. +I really do. +Alright. +Just put a on +Well it'll be , I think it'll be very interesting then this year that when asked for nominations for captain we say nothing and just see what happens. +And just see what happens. +Just sit there and say nothing , and just see what happens. +Yeah that's right. +Yeah. +Yeah. +Yes! +I'll be, I'll be out the room . +This could be +Yeah . +this could be the person who's moaning about the +Well it could well be, yeah. +That's right. +Well it wasn't me. +Yeah . +Erm, I know +There was nothing in there though so +Mm. +there's no way that the, the, the committee can influence the club like that. +Oh no, no. +Can we, can we do it on something else other than the captain though? +Vice-captain. +Committee secretary. +Yes. +Mm. +No, really +Well +cos all the things they've said before . +No we could, we could do it for all jobs cos +No because we wouldn't do that anyway. +we could do it for all jobs, and see, that's what I saying, I mean, we've got +we've got, we'll have somebody i , in,mi , but it's up to, you know, the commi , er to the members anyway who gets all these jobs, so +Anyway , can, onto the next bit. +Who wants to do what next year? +Well that's, that's the next thing, I mean who +who's, who's +Well it's go , you've got to go to A G M like that. +We have. +Otherwise +You've got to. +otherwise you could sit there, you'd have no +Mm. +er captain, no secretar , nothing. +And not only that you've only gotta +You've gotta have people +if you haven't got something organized beforehand. +Even if +Yeah. +you don't actually mention it. +If you, erm, and you as president or whoever's the chairman of the night +Mm mm. +has got to turn round, has got to know that the, the, the positions are gonna filled. +That's right. +Yes. +You only go in with +And jus just because +a fair idea. +just because we've got a fair idea of you mi , + +If any of you happen to be professional philosophers, you will certainly have had this experience in your, in society, you're asked what you do, and if you make that admission, a slightly lunatic thing happens. +That you're greeted in the first place with erm either silence or some vague and not singularly hopeful mutter, but more importantly with a curious facial expression mingled between erm dread and contempt, sort of thing you'd expect as if you'd said you were a sorcerer. +I find myself the only thing is to change the subject. +This erm reaction to the disclosure I think's exaggerated but on the other hand there's something in it. +Because although the problems in which philosophers begin are fairly easy to state and quite straightforward, erm certainly when they begin they end up in some rather strange regions. +Philosophy always has begun from Athens on from a recognition of the extraordinary facts of the diversity of human belief and attitude, on moral questions, on questions of social organization, on questions as to the ultimate nature of the universe, the destiny of man, and all such things, the most astonishing diversity of belief and attitude has prevailed and still does prevail amongst people. +That, however, together with the fact that each and all of us, I think, individually, entertain fairly strong confidence about the rationality, about the rightness of our own position. +It's this combination of diversity and conviction which presents such a peculiar problem. +If we all agreed and erm shared, then erm the fact that we were confident wouldn't perhaps matter too much. +Or if we all disagreed, but we treated it all, to use Russell's favourite example, like disagreements about the taste of oysters, it wouldn't matter very much either. +But what's so striking is that this great diversity of belief is accompanied by strong convictions of rationality and rectitude. +And the effect of this, over the last two thousand years odd, upon the intelligent observer, has been to produce a mood, or even a philosophy, of scepticism. +Because if, on matters seemingly of great importance for mankind, different people can entertain with great conviction radically conflicting beliefs, it strongly suggests that nobody really knows what they are talking about, and that the confidence of all of them is misplaced, and perhaps that nobody knows upon what general principles one ought to settle questions of these kinds. +Scepticism in these circumstances is a very tempting position in which to rest. +But when you think of it, it's not really a possible position in which to rest. +Because the sceptic is in the nature of things, if he's really consistent and systematic, committed to tolerating, well, all these other opinions, to tolerating all sorts of preposterous absurdities and monstrous attitudes. +The sceptic is I suppose really the arch-conservative. +Whatever is, is. +And he signs himself off from systematic criticism. +And so you find yourself forced, not merely to note the diversity of belief and the strength of individual confidence, and to be a bit sceptical, but to search around for principles of adjudication, for ways of trying to sort out what beliefs are reasonable and acceptable, and what not. +The pain of, the fault of that, the penalty is, that you will find yourself tolerating every absurdity of superstition and the like. +So the philosopher begins his search for some conceivable agreed ways of adjudicating these tangled controversial issues. +Russell once said, ‘It is not by delusion that mankind can prosper, but only by unswerving courage in the pursuit of truth.’ +In that remark, several of his convictions are already present. +He recognizes, and indeed one is forced to recognize, from the mere fact that so many strong beliefs are contradictory, that very much in human belief is delusion. +Present also, in that statement, is his conviction, which is suggested by the word ‘unswerving courage’, that the pursuit of truth may be difficult, that it may lead one to call in question things that one doesn't want to give up and which it is painful to surrender. +But he argues that this is the fundamental thing to go by. +There is truth, it is possible at least to advance towards it, we mustn't sit down in what Hume called ‘a forlorn scepticism’, erm it will require great courage to pursue it, but only by pursuing it shall mankind prosper. +The phases of Russell's pursuit of truth are roughly these: as a boy, as a youth, he had an intense battle over traditional religious belief. +That occupied the eighties. +In the nineties, when he was at Cambridge, he had another struggle with German idealism, embodied as it then was in the English universities. +In the nineteen hundreds, he was concerned with the foundations of mathematics, and then for the remainder of his life, roughly between nineteen-ten and nineteen-fifty, or indeed to the very end of his life, he was concerned with two sets of knowledge, erm problems in the theory of knowledge, and problems about social organization and personal conduct. +So I'll take things in that order. +Russell was born of liberal, free-thinking parents, who died when he was an infant, and thereafter he was brought up by his grandmother, Lady Russell, the wife, though shortly the widow, of Lord John Russell, who was erm a Presbyterian who gradually moved over to Unitarianism and who, as Russell put it later, preached quote ‘virtue at the expense of intellect, health, happiness and every mundane good.’ +In fact he was subjected to a very stiff, puritanical and doctrinal regime, only mitigated by the fact that he was educated by a long sequence of tutors, and seemed to have access to a lot of books. +Even as a child, Russell describes himself as having found this intellectual, religious background as intolerable, and he says that he spent endless hours meditating on the supposed rational grounds for Christianity. +And between the ages of fourteen and eighteen came gradually the disbelief, first in free will, then in immortality, and finally in God. +In the first chapter of his autobiography, we have an interesting record of this struggle, which he wrote down in English words but in Greek characters, in order that his thoughts erm shouldn't be accessible to his family. +What roughly he says is that he is committed to the following scientific arguments, arguments based upon scientific principles, regardless of any pain that may be caused to him or to others by so doing. +And he then tries to show in detail how this caused him, first of all, to disbelieve in free will on account of a commitment to universal determinism, then in immortality, and finally in God. +And although much of this was, by the record that he gives, painful, at the very end of it he says, quote, ‘I found to my surprise that I was quite glad to be done with the whole subject’. +erm And he obviously thought at least that he had shaken off religion for good. +But the interesting thing is that, although he was certainly done with Christianity, erm and done with doctrinal religion, done with theism, done with all normally erm accepted Christian beliefs, he certainly wasn't done with religion itself. +There was throughout his life a long conflict between what may one may call a sort of scientific naturalism in his attitude to the world, and the impulse to hypostatize his ideals, to create out of his ideals erm ideal beings of some kind, and so to worship. +The great bulk of his writing about religion, however, is strongly negative. +He didn't claim to be an atheist. +He took the view that erm religious beliefs are highly improbable if not demonstrably false, as judged from the scientific standpoint. +If you approach God's existence as you would approach any scientific hypothesis, you're forced to recognize, he says, that it's highly improbable. +He didn't take a positivistic line and argue that the sentence ‘God exists’ is literally meaningless, but he did at least think that it was, expressed a proposition which no reasonable person would accept. +And if you abandon scientific evidence, it's no good looking to feeling. +You can't make any inferences from how you feel about the world or any emotional experiences that you may have, to what is there in reality. +And if you look at what religions, organized religions exhibit, you will find, and very numerous essays and chapters in his books hammer away at these themes, that organized religions are inhuman, they are obscurantist, they are reactionary, they are based on fear and hatred of other people, ignorance of the way the world works, and conceit. +Conceit, because they tend to attribute to human beings a position in the world to which, a position of importance in the world, to which they're not entitled. +Nothing, in other words, could be sharper than Russell's condemnation of traditional Christianity. +Not, however, that there's anything original in it. +All those things had been said time and again erm by various thinkers in the eighteenth century and before and after. +It wasn't original, but what it was, as always with Russell, was something expressed with uncommon verve and humour and a persistent, sinister, undermining irony, in which he excelled. +But although he took this very stiff line about theism and organized religion, it's not true that Russell himself was void of religious feelings and interests. +He repeatedly expresses himself as awestruck by nature and by the contemplation of truth, and as having a, a desire to worship something outside himself. +He found humanism, which posits no values outside human beings, very hard to swallow, although he could see no case against it. +And more positively, he found in mysticism, besides metaphysical delusions, which he is the first to castigate, yet an affirmation of the possibility of universal love and joy which is the apex of human achievement. +This is a side of Russell which people perhaps don't know about, erm so well as the others, so if I may, I'll read some passages and paraphrase it. +About mysticism he says, ‘While its theories seem to me to be mistaken, I yet believe that by sufficient restraint, there is an element of wisdom to be learned from the mystical way of feeling, which does not seem to be attainable in any other manner. +If this is the truth, mysticism is to be commended as an attitude towards life, not as a creed about the world. +The metaphysical creed, I shall maintain, is a mistaken outcome of the emotion, although this emotion, as colouring and informing all other thoughts and feelings, is the inspirer of whatever is best in man. +Even the cautious and patient investigation of truth by science, which seems to be the very antithesis of the mystic's swift certainty, may be fostered and nourished by that very spirit of reverence in which mysticism lives and moves. +What is, in all cases, ethically characteristic of mysticism, is absence of indignation or protest, acceptance with joy, disbelief in the ultimate truth of the division into two hostile camps, the good and the bad. +This attitude is a direct outcome of the nature of the mystical experience, with its sense of unity is associated a feeling of infinite peace. +Indeed, it may be suspected that the feeling of peace produces, as feelings do in dreams, the whole system of associated beliefs which make up the body of mystic doctrine.’ +Again, ‘The possibility of this universal love and joy in all that exists is of supreme importance for the conduct and happiness of life, and gives inestimable value to the mystic emotion, apart from any creeds which may be built upon it. +But if we are not to be led into false beliefs, it is necessary to realize exactly what the mystic emotion reveals. +It reveals a possibility of human nature, a possibility of a nobler, freer, happier life than could otherwise be achieved. +But it does not reveal anything about the non-human or about the nature of the universe in general. +Good and bad, and even the higher good that mysticism finds everywhere, are the reflections of our own emotions on other things, not part of the substance of things as they are in themselves.’ +For the rest of Russell's life there was a constant tug of war between the very real religious sentiments which he expresses in passages like those and his sceptical attitude towards established religions. +I think I shall be able to show you that this religious attitude underlay some of the most striking aspects of Russell's life: his pacifism, and his deep concern with human misfortune and misery. +The second big battle that Russell had in his unswerving pursuit of truth was with German idealism, mainly Hegelian idealism, which by a very curious aberration from the standard empiricism of the British people, took root in Oxford and Cambridge in the last half of the last century, and was almost for a time unchallenged. +Russell first read mathematics at Cambridge and then, in the second half of his tripos, philosophy, and he then came strongly under this influence. +I must say I've been seriously wondering, during this lecture, whether I was going to have the courage or not, to attempt to give you a thumbnail exposition of Hegelian metaphysics. +To tell the honest truth I'm still dithering. +In the days when I used to drink alcohol I'd have said it was possible to do it only on the basis of several glasses of sherry. +Now that I'm a teetotaller it's become even harder. +But broadly speaking, however, and this will do, I think, the principle as far as Russell's concerned is this: that according to this way, this way of thinking is monistic. +It believes that everything in the world is related to everything else in such an intimate way that only the whole is, can be said to be real, and only by seeing everything in its associated network of the whole to which it belongs, of the complete whole to which it belongs, can it be understood. +Piecemeal understanding of the world, bit by bit, is not on. +Therefore all understanding, in any way worthy the name, has to begin from the whole of reality as such, and proceed outwards from there to the details of the world as we know it. +That's one. +Two is that there, in some sense, some perhaps rather extended and difficult sense, this totality of everything which we have to take by storm directly if any detail of the world is every to be understood, can be said to be mental. +erm At least it can be more nearly said to be mental than anything else. +In a real sense, our mind or at least, our mind as it truly is, our mind as it would be if it were purged of all individuality, partiality, incompleteness, confusion, emotion and what not, is identical with the total absolute which the business of philosophy is to study. +And thirdly, in order to unravel the totality of things that are and see how it is inwardly articulated and how it emanates into the diversity of the world as we experience in the ordinary way, your thought has to follow a special kind of logic, dialectical logic, which exhibits the process of thought and simultaneously the process of reality as one that proceeds by things being or things being said, and these giving rise to their opposites, to contradictions, and these contradictory moments or items being taken up in a greater, synthesizing whole. +If one thinks dialectically, so Hegel believed, it was possible, for the it was possible, he had done it, it's set out in the Encyclopedia, his Encyclopedia,to see the whole system of reality as one articulated, logical system in which everything has its orderly and appointed place. +Russell was taken up in this for a time, he even wrote wonderful piece on the foundations of geometry couched in erm a sort of vaguely dialectical form, which in later life he erm pronounced as being complete rubbish. +He says of himself that he was, that there was a curious pleasure in making oneself believe that time and space are unreal, that matter is an illusion, and that the world really exists, consists of nothing but mind. +And he certainly did enter into it with erm vigour for a short period. +But only very for a very short period. +And then, under the influence of G. +E. +Moore, he rocketed off to the very opposite of metaphysical extremes. +He came, towards the end of the nineties, to believe that there are erm there must be things which are in the strictest possible sense non-mental, and which would be what they were, even if there had never been any minds that were conscious of them. +Moreover, erm the world can be broken down into elements, into simples, which you can perceive or grasp conceptually as what they are quite independently of the system as a whole to which they belong. +Hence philosophical analysis can and must proceed by erm philosophical thinking must proceed by analysis, by breaking down complex wholes into their simple parts and building them up by construction out of these simple parts, a conviction to which Russell remained true for the rest of his life. +Thenceforward, Russell was consistently what I called earlier a scientific naturalist. +He allowed himself, or claimed to allow himself, no beliefs about the world which couldn't be justified if, if, even if only in a very loose sense, by scientific canons of procedure. +Nature is an reality independent of mind, man is in fact only a small cog in the machine. +‘I see nothing,’ he says, ‘nothing impossible, in a universe devoid of experience.’ +And looking back on his emergence from absolute idealism, he says of himself that he came to hate the stuffiness of supposing that space and time were only in the mind. +And I fancy that erm a large part of his animus against latterday Oxford philosophy was that he suspected it of covert idealism, erm a preoccupation simply with the knowing mind, insufficient attention to the facts of the world as presented by science. +And yet, although he was a scientific naturalist and although in frequent essays he reminds us of the insignificance and unimportance of man in the whole scheme of things, it's plain that, from the beginning, and as I hope I shall be able to show you, right down to the end, he found something emotionally hard to bear, I was going to say, in fact, intolerable, in this situation. +You will see what I mean if you read a very strange piece called ‘A Free Man's Worship’, which he wrote in nineteen-hundred and three. +Strange because it is, as he later admitted and I'm sure he was later very embarrassed by it, erm histrionic and emotional in the most extreme way. +erm He apparently is adopting the position of a scientific naturalist, and yet all the ways in which he talks about nature are ways which personify it. +Nature is grinding down man, or will grind down man, has no regard to him, is cruel, all this kind of language is used of nature, and he depicts the only posture of the rational man as a kind of, if such a thing is possible, a rather emotional Stoicism. +But if you read that rather strange, moving document, you will see very well what I mean, when I refer to Russell's emotional difficulty in accepting what commended itself so strongly to his intellect, a purely naturalistic, scientific account of what things are. +In the year nineteen hundred, nineteen hundred and one, Russell then underwent a double revolution, a moral revolution and an intellectual one. +The moral revolution, which is very strikingly described in his autobiography, arose out of a visit that he and his wife paid to the Whitehead family, which were then undergoing a family tribulation of some kind, and Russell was deeply moved by their plight. +And, as he describes it in a very striking page, suddenly had what he calls a, a very acute sense of unendurable individual loneliness of man, the acute, an acute sense of the pathos of the situation of the human individual, somehow inherently lonely, shut up within himself, undefended,against the blows of fate. +This led him to see that, that only one thing which can begin to come to the rescue of human beings in this situation, and that is universal love, and on that basis he saw, almost instantaneously, that war, that violence, that coldness in personal relations even, are morally intolerable. +‘At the end of those five minutes, he said, I had become a completely different person.’ +As he describes himself he had been, during the nineties at Cambridge and afterwards, a rather worldly, flippant creature, erm but after this experience something changed within him, and he says, and I suppose, I think we must believe that it is true, that it was on account of this sort of moral mystical experience that his whole attitude to the world was changed, and he was provided with the peculiar moral strength to fight the battles, as he later did fight, against war and other such things. +But — and it's this sort of complication that makes him I think such a remarkable man — although that did happen then, for the next ten, twelve years, he was entirely preoccupied, almost entirely preoccupied with something else, and this something else erm originates from the other revolution that he underwent at this time, a revolution that occurred after a visit to an international mathematical congress in Paris, where he met the Italian mathematician Peano. +To try and explain this one is almost as bad as to try and explain Hegel erm my ignorance is even more crying in this case than in the other. +But the broad gist of the point I think is this. +Like very many other people, and this theme runs right through the length of European intellectual life, Russell was, he was delighted with mathematics when he first encountered it, erm immensely impressed by the certainty of its propositions, as so many other people had been, erm troubled a bit by the logical inadequacy of much of the mathematics that he was presented with, especially at Cambridge, and investing mathematics with a kind of Platonic aura. +His immense desire to have something outside himself that he could look up to and worship expressed itself not merely in that idealistic phase that he'd just gone through, but in his attitude towards mathematical truth. +With Russell at this stage, as with Plato, mathematics assumed a semi-religious aspect. +As he said, ‘I wanted certainty in the kind of way in which most people want religious faith. +I thought that certainty is more likely to be found in mathematics than elsewhere. +I set out with a more or less religious belief in a Platonic, eternal world, in which mathematics shares with a beauty, shines, I'm sorry, with a beauty of that of the last cantos of the Paradiso.’ +What Peano and then the German mathematicians with whom he had previously not been acquainted did for him, was to suggest an astonishing idea. +A mathematical system is distinguished by the fact that it seeks to derive a large number of very complex conclusions from a small number of primitive propositions, employing a small number of primitive ideas. +What Peano had suggested was that it might be possible, not to take the simple ideas with which people had hitherto operated in mathematics as ultimate, but to derive them from something simpler still. +You might think that you could hardly have anything much simpler than the idea of zero or unity, or even perhaps the notion of number,erm sorry, but what, zero or unity, what Peano was proposing to do was to define these basic arithmetical ideas in terms of ideas simpler still. +And Russell thought that this could be generalized even further. +He thought that he could defined the, the simplest concepts to which Peano claimed to reduce arithmetical ideas, to classes and relations between classes, and even perhaps in terms of something still simpler, quite purely in logical conceptions like that of implication. +What he would achieve if he could do this was twofold. +He would show that mathematics could be reduced to something even more simple, more general, more basic than had hitherto been supposed, to logical concepts, and, moreover, at the same time, he would be able to exhibit the internal logical structure of mathematics in a much more rigorous way. +In this way erm starting from logical indefinables of maximum simplicity, and by rigorous logical construction of the rest of its contents on that basis, he'd be able to exhibit the whole of mathematics as a perfectly systematic and unquestionable structure. +The very paradigm of knowledge. +This immensely ambitious programme was what he started out on in the early nineteen hundreds and it was this which, with the assistance of A. +N. +Whitehead, eventually emerged in his great treatise Principia Mathematica. +This work eventually encountered various great technical difficulties which, it seems, could only be resolved by what most people have regarded as unsatisfactory expedients, and so that the, the system in many ways that he evolved as an answer to this programme has not been commonly held to be entirely satisfactory. +But yet there's no doubt at all that despite the technical shortcomings of his work in subsequent judgement, erm Russell by this work became, I suppose, the main founder of modern logic, the main founder of this kind of logic which by the much more sophisticated symbolic apparatus erm is able to panelize a much wider range of logical phenomena, and hence to reveal the structure in a way which had not been possible before. +Of this Russell was the principle founder, and this I think is his greatest claim to intellectual fame. +But as the work progressed, one thing at least went by the board, and that was his original Platonic outlook. +Partly for technical reasons, partly for temperamental reasons, Russell came to very different conclusions to the Platonic ones with which he began. +He came to the conclusion, as he puts it, ‘that the eternal world is trivial, and that mathematics is only the art of saying the same thing in different words.’ +Not thereby an unimportant art, but not an art which yields something which could be a proper object of worship. +There's one other aspect, I think, of this period, this immensely important and fertile period in Russell's life, which is worth emphasis. +He says little about it, but I don't think that there is very much doubt that intellectually he did exhaust himself. +He describes this period of work as one of, of terrible strain, it was also a period in which he was personally very unhappy, and I get the impression that he really did use the best of his mind on this problem, and that for the rest of his life he found it difficult to press his thinking home with the kind of ruthlessness that many of the problems that he then assumed required. +And in my opinion, and in that of many other people, is the philosophical analysis to which he then proceeded, often bears the mark of a certain superficiality. +He tends not to formulate and face the difficulties that he encounters sufficiently rigorously, and erm to on the whole get away with difficulties by the skilful way in which he writes about them and by his wit. +He, in the, in the early nineteen-fifties he once came to, he came to Oxford, and there was a meeting at which erm all my colleagues threw at him very sophisticated objections to his philosophical position. +Listening to this I on the whole thought that in a real sense he never really quite answered them, on the other hand he made every single person look silly. +He had a way of dealing with objections which, even if he didn't face them, made it appear absolutely ridiculous to maintain the opposite position. +It's basically a literary more than a philosophical gift, but it was fantastically effective. +And it seems to me that in his written work likewise, he tends to rely rather heavily upon this remarkable dexterity. +What however he did seek to do, starting from about nineteen-hundred erm and ten, or nineteen-twelve, was to apply the same methodological procedures which he'd applied in mathematics, to a range of philosophical problems. +I go on much too long. +I shall have to think about that as I proceed, shan't I? +The problem is basically this, that he then faced: We're all perfectly well aware that the world consists of a lot of different things, files, bottles of water and the like, but we're also aware of, that there are more radical differences between the kinds of things that compose the world. +For example, that the images that I now call up in my mind as I look at the front door of my house, this is something quite real, but it's real in a much more radically different, in a radically different sense, there's a, somehow a radically difference in the kind of reality which that image enjoys, to the reality that that bottle enjoys. +And, likewise, if I conceive the very, the minute particles of which, according to physics, the bottle is ultimately composed, and I start thinking about electrons, then it begins to become plain that these also are real in some much more radically different sense than that in which the bottle and the glass are different from one another. +And the problem which Russell faced is, supposing now we do concede that there are these radical differences of the, of the kinds of things of which the world is filled, how can we examine their relations? +What relationship is there between our beliefs about the sense experiences and the images that we have, our beliefs in ordinary material things like jugs and bottles, our belief in the theoretical objects of physics? +And his programme was to try to show that really ultimately the only things that can be accepted are our own sense experiences, and to try to exhibit everything else, ordinary material objects, and then of course, physical objects in turn, as constructions, as logical constructions out of these. +So that, erm just as you can construct a house out of bricks and mortar, and really, although the house looks very different from just bricks and mortar, it is just bricks and mortar arranged in a certain way, so the glass, the bottle, erm although it looks a very different thing from a sense experience, is really nothing more than a very complicated pattern of actual and possible sense experiences. +He formulated a new version of Occam's razor in the words, ‘Whenever possible, substitute constructions out of known entities, for inferences to unknown entities.’ +And he wanted to do this because he thought that if it were possible, if we could start just from our own sense experiences, then a great simplification would have been achieved. +With Descartes he felt that our own sense experiences are the one things about which we can be absolutely certain. +That at a given moment I seem to be seeing a brown patch — this I cannot conceivably doubt. +You can be sceptical about everything else, but not about one's immediate sense experiences. +And so if we could start from these unquestionable little bits of reality, and build everything out of this by pure logical construction, we would have shown that the world is coherent and logical, and we would have shown that ordinary beliefs erm were not open to doubt, were rational and certain. +I don't know what I think in view of what you say, Mary, go into to great detail as to what went wrong with this, erm because I can cut that short because the fact is that Russell eventually admitted that this programme simply wasn't viable. +At the time he reached his last book, Human Knowledge, he had abandoned the claim that you could show that the world could be logically constructed out of sense experiences, and adopted a much more Kantian outlook, in which, while he erm said that all our inferences about the world must begin from sense experiences, all that the philosopher can do, is to make explicit the premises that are required in order to infer from the transitory data of my own experiences to the enduring existence of material things and the much more sophisticated kinds of existence which their minute constituents have. +I think it's therefore fair to say that perhaps even in Russell's own eyes, his original epistemological programme, which occupied a great deal of his time and writing, between erm nineteen-twelve and erm the thirties, in fact broke down. +And I think it partly broke down because he was insufficiently ruthless in examining the question that he had asked. +All the same, what's attractive about Russell is his readiness to admit failures, and to try and suggest new solutions. +He was marvellously undogmatic, very open-minded, prepared always to have another go, if it became obvious that something wouldn't work. +erm This is a quality I think which philosophers have all too seldom, and which he had in a very high degree. +And I think there is a deeper sense in which erm one mustn't conceive the breakdown of a philosophical enterprise, like this one of Russell's, as being a failure. +It is something I, I think inherent in the nature of philosophical questions, that probably the very best a philosopher can do is to test some way of seeking to formulate the nature of human knowledge and the relation of the thinking man to the world, erm test some way in which one seeks to render that explicit and self-conscious, to destruction. +I rather suspect that it's inherent in the very human situation that it's impossible to give a final and satisfactory account of the relation between the individuality of the individual's experience and the world. +Perhaps because it is of the very essence of human beings that they transcend any situation into which they come or bring about. +It's the very essence of human beings to call in question every form of life, every form of thought, and to raise the possibility of thinking and living in some other way, and perhaps just for this very reason, some final and definitive formulation of the, of human nature, of human knowledge, of human conduct, is in principle unobtainable, and that the best that the philosopher can ever hope to do, is to show that this formulation, that formulation or the other won't work. +Because by showing that it won't work, it liberates people for some other and perhaps more comprehensive and satisfactory possibility. +So, although it's one of the most standard reproaches against philosophy, that it's inconclusive, I think this probably springs from a misconception of what human beings are, and what the possibilities of human intellectual self-consciousness can really be. +After he had finished with his mathematical work and he was embarking upon that epistemological work, Russell, partly through his, the internal evolution of his character, and partly through the onset of the First World War, became much more deeply engaged in practical affairs. +He had been on the fringes of politics in the nineteen-hundreds, he had sought erm to get adopted as a parliamentary candidate, he had erm taken part in the movement for female emancipation, erm on one occasion the police were only prevailed upon to save him from being mobbed by an angry crowd by being told that he was the brother of an Earl erm But it was with the First World War that his practical activities really began. +From the beginning and maintained this position rigorously to the end despite very heavy pressures. +The war, in his view, was entirely irrational. +erm That's to say, nothing in the programmes of any of the powers could possibly warrant or justify the measure that they were adopting. +And it was also at this time, erm partly under the influence of war, partly no doubt under the influence of Freud, he began to become very much more conscious of the ugly, destructive patterns of unconscious motivation, which underlie the decorous surface of civilized life. +He became eventually a conscientious objector. +He lost or failed to be finally appointed to a position in Trinity. +He was sent to prison and, like every other conscientious objector in that war, was brought under very, very heavy moral pressure. +One of the most endearing of Russell's characteristics was his courage. +erm He drew from the Bible at least one maxim, I think his grandmother was also in favour of it but he certainly was,‘Do not, or is it, Never follow a multitude to do evil.’ +erm This was one of his strongest principles, and few people I think have lived up to it so consistently. +And from this point on, erm he, having given away a substantial erm amount of his private fortune, I think that T. +S. +Eliot was one of the beneficiaries, erm he supported himself almost entirely by the advocacy of various kinds of reform in all aspects of human affairs. +Before looking at some of the erm details of those practical programmes I would like to tell you something about the principles upon which his mind worked in approaching practical affairs. +Because of course it may seem, and very many people objected to him, that, if you adopt his sort of subjectivist views, erm you are perhaps deprived of any rational basis upon which you can criticize and condemn the actual way in which human beings conduct their affairs and organize their society. +erm He says, ‘Just as what we think good, what we should like, has no bearing on whatever on what is, so it is for us to determine the good life. +Not for Nature, not even for Nature personified as God. +Outside human desires, there is no moral standard.’ +Again, ‘Insistence on belief in an external realization of the good is a form of self-assertion which, while it cannot secure the external good which it desires, can seriously the impair the inward good which lies within our power, and destroy that reverence towards fact which constitutes both what is valuable in humility and what is fruitful in the scientific temper.’ +Parenthetically, erm he says somewhere in his autobiography that the one thing that consoled him in the nineteen-hundreds when he was so miserable with his wife and his mathematics, was the devising of, was the devising of prose rhythms. +And he did indeed, did he not, develop a beautiful ear. +That was one sentence which I read, and it is perfect. +So what he's got to do, erm if he rejects theism, if, on the basis of the diversity of human moral opinion, he has no faith in conscience or any form of moral intuition or any form of religious revelation, he's got to find some way of arguing that there can be another rational basis for the criticism of moral and social systems. +And it's no good saying, ‘It is for us to determine the good life. +erm Outside human desires there is no moral standard.’ +It's no good saying that and no more, because of course, human desires are very diverse, and we, Heaven knows, just don't agree. +He's got to do better than that. +So what does he do? +What he does is to appeal to what he believed to be certain facts of human nature. +And in all this he follows very closely Hume and Mill. +There's nothing original in this, but it is all the same, it seems to me, important and interesting. +In the first place he draws our attention to the fact that not all our desires are for our own future states of affairs, desires can be impersonal. +And moreover that there is latent in every human being this desire, a desire for the welfare of others. +It's latent in every human being and can be called to the fore. +And he talks of the, and plainly in that erm sort of mystical experience that he had with the Whiteheads, he did in, as it were, come to realize for the first time that there was in himself this desire to lead a life erm inspired by love and guided by knowledge, and to see others leading it. +And he thought that this is a motive which is operative in every human being, and can be called out. +It's there in people, but it can, it is only there potentially. +And therefore the very first task of the philosopher is to try to awaken this deeper desire. +Only if you can do so, only if you can waken a deep concern with other human beings, is there any possible basis for moral argument. +And this is the sort of thing that he says, and he says this kind of thing very frequently. +‘The world in which we find ourselves is one where great hopes and appalling fears are equally justified by the possibilities. +The fears are very generally felt, and are tending to produce a world of listless gloom. +The hopes, since they involve imagination and courage, are less vivid in most men's minds. +It's only because they are not vivid that they seem utopian. +Only a kind of mental laziness stands in the way. +If this can be overcome, mankind has a new happiness within his grasp.’ +Or again: ‘If you try to make yourself content with the happiness of the pig, your suppressed potentialities will make you miserable. +True happiness for human beings is possible only to those who develop their godlike potentialities to the utmost.’ +This then is his first task and erm he devotes many pages to that theme of awakening people to the potentialities inside them, which, if they deny them, will make only themselves miserable and other people too. +But, even supposing we do begin to awaken these sentiments in ourselves and other people, erm major problems are still ahead. +Because human development is, in one of the many senses, dialectical. +That's to say that men embody themselves in partial versions of themselves, and then, in order to realize themselves more fully, they have to overcome by many kinds of struggle this previous realization. +For example, in order to realize their inward potentialities, men project upon the world a belief in God, a belief in divine commands, and at a certain point in history no doubt this was progressive, this was a way in which people could see what Russell calls their potentialities. +But, once it exists, it can become a shackle rather than an inspiration, and when it does do so, one has to seek to destroy it, and thence the animus of Russell's attacks on organized religion. +And so Russell, looking round the world, inspired by that feeling and conscious of the way in which old human artefacts can hem in the expansion of human power of love and knowledge, he seeks to identify what in the world of his time are the main obstacles. +Economic weakness, the relative poverty and inefficiency of our societies, but still more importantly, the inequality of power. +Ignorance and obscurantism. +Mere unthinking conservatism. +Rationalization. +Self-centred, unbounded, destructive desires. +Faulty education. +So what the philosopher has to do is to look at these, all these various factors and begin to try and make people conscious of the inadequacies of the way in which they live, and of the new possibilities which are open to them, if they will only project their minds outside the established bounds. +And he traversed the whole spectrum really of practical life. +Some of his best writings are about socialism in the nineteen-eighteen, nineteen-twenty. +In many ways one of his best books is one difficult to obtain, The Practice and Theory of Bolshevism, based on a visit to Russia in nineteen-twenty in which he had, amongst other things, a conversation with Lenin. +It's a very striking book because while on the one hand he admires the Bolsheviks very greatly for the hope that they have given to man, for the feeling that they have given to the world that new potentialities are there to be realized if only we had enough courage, yet on the other hand, even at that point, he was acutely conscious that the Bolsheviks' attitude towards the equality of power was leading them in a fatal direction, and long before Stalinism began to take shape, he described in advance what he expected to come. +Acting on that basis, the kind of socialism that he advocated was then, was guild socialism, or more popularly nowadays, workers' control, and what he would have hoped to see was something which, most mysteriously, doesn't yet even now seem to be coming to the fore, the use of industrial power by the workers not merely for economic advantage but for political ends. +This is what he hoped for, and one the many things that tended to dispirit him was the fact that it was so little forthcoming. +He tackled marriage. +Here again he sees all sorts of factors dating from the distant past as limiting and distorting potentialities. +New things had happened, the spread of the scientific temper, erm reasonably effective and cheap methods of contraception, the emancipation of women due to the development of industry, the decay of Christianity, all these various factors made the old conception of marriage out of date, and so he takes it in hand, he pillories it, and he suggests new possibilities, of which one seems to be nowadays obtaining favour, that's trial marriage, i.e. that people should experiment with living together erm so long as they don't intend at that stage to have children, before they finally decide to marry and settle down. +erm The other expedient which he suggested, so far as I know, although I don't believe there's been any sociological research into this, is that people should become more tolerant of adultery, and that occasional adventures should be able to be reconciled with monogamous marriage. +This seems to have encountered erm deeper objections, to judge at least by my friends and acquaintances. +Education. +One of this best books was written on this. +erm To take just one point out of it, much influenced by Freud, he emphasizes the enormous importance to transcend the morality of repression and self-control which leads to cruelty and obsession, and fear in the name of virtue, and to cultivate instead a much more open-minded self-knowledge. +Again, he tackles, in The Conquest of Happiness, the roots of human unhappiness, and sees them in an excessive introversion, in an excessive concern with the mechanisms of one's own mind, and proposes various ways in which people can seek to extract themselves from this introverted obsession with their own mechanisms. +But the most important, I suppose, in all our minds, the most important illustration of Russell's practical battles, was with war. +In politics just as in morals there can be obsessions with old forms of life which are now out of date. +War may once upon a time have been a reasonably satisfactory, or at least not utterly unsatisfactory way of securing certain kinds of social change. +Now it's completely out of date. +He says erm addressing the statesmen of the world and ordinary citizens too, that his arguments have nothing whatever to do with merits or demerits of Communism or democracy. +They are concerned solely with the welfare of the human species as a whole. +What he's trying to do is always to get outside ideological systems, and to present arguments which are simply in terms of what we must all desire. +He compares war in modern circumstances with a plague, and tries to make us see that we have exactly the same universal common interest in transcending military conflict that we have in getting plague under control, and that it's necessary to use all our intelligence and imagination to break the millennial connection of intersocial change with war, and then he goes on to make practical proposals. +It's easy, it's easy when one looks at what has happened, since the days of CND, to treat this step, whole agitation as a failure. +Once again he went to prison for a short time. +But I don't think that he himself would see it as a failure at all. +What he thought himself to be doing, he, was simply to focus public attention on this matter. +He didn't believe that he could start a movement which would lead directly to the abolition of British erm armaments, the rejection of the atomic bomb or anything of that kind. +What he wanted to do was to publicize erm the whole issue, and it was for this purpose that he joined in these campaigns. +I think he realized that what he might call the party of reason, that's to say the party of those who don't see things in terms of ideological shibboleths, but in terms of the long-run interests of humanity, can't become a party of action. +What he hoped to build up, to activate, was a climate of opinion throughout the world in which the armaments of the powers, based upon ideological arguments, would appear to be absurd. +And it was a, a fabulous tribute to his personality, and the, the sharpness of his mind, that he was able to get, at one time, Dulles on the one hand and Khrushchev on the other, to answer him with open letters in a debate upon this issue. +It is remarkable, when you think of what most of us philosophers are like, that he should have had the sheer ability and integrity to elicit such a response from people of such political eminence. +Looking back on all this, is one to judge him as having been a success or a failure? +Obviously it's terribly difficult, in a matter of such controversiality as philosophy, to find any criteria by which success or failure can be assessed. +As far as his moral and social criticism are concerned, one can at least say, that in very many points to do with education and marriage and the like, his side has won. +There are no means that I know of, perhaps some social scientists present could suggest some, by means of which you could actually assess just what sort of a contribution he made. +One rough index, however, is the success of his books. +All of them, as you can say, reprinted a very large number of times, even when they seemed to be dated, over the last three decades. +His epistemology, I have suggested, was even in his own terms a failure, but I've suggested also that failure isn't to be judged there in a naive way. +There's no doubt that by revivifying the programme of Descartes and Hume in an extremely forceful and effective way, and arming it with new logical weapons, he did make a very substantial contribution to the theory of knowledge and activated the thinking of a lot of other people. +I don't think he introduced any really new ideas, and what he did suggest hasn't lasted, but still, in its way, it was effective. +In mathematics and logic, as I have suggested, his work was one of real and permanent originality, which nobody can question. +How then, finally, about his work on religion and morality? +Of all things, I suppose this is the most difficult to assess, just because the standards for measuring are so controversial. +One can ask at least, did he succeed by his own standards? +And I suppose that means, did he manage to live his ideas out? +And, at least as far as morality is concerned, I think, yes. +erm He had just the qualities that he advocated. +He was extraordinarily courageous and zestful, extremely generous, ready to pursue his convictions to the limit, even at great cost to himself. +erm A loyal friend, as well as an extremely amusing one, he seems to me to have lived remarkably well up to the standards that he set himself. +But finally, erm how about his erm religious history? +In a remarkable letter which he wrote in nineteen-eighteen, he said, ‘I must, before I die, find some way to say the essential thing that is in me, that I have never said yet, a thing that is not love, or hate, or pity, or scorn, but the very breath of life, fierce and coming from far away, bringing into human life the vastness and the fearful passionless force of non-human things.’ +Well, did he ever find a way of doing that? +You will notice that there is, in the wording of that letter, something curious. +‘The breath of life, fierce and coming from far away, bringing into human life the vastness and the fearful passionless force of non-human things.’ +‘Fearful’, ‘fierce’. +And frequently, at the end of his life as much as in A Free Man's Worship, you find him talking about nature in these highly personalized terms. +Did he ever transcend this somewhat romanticized attitude towards the universe, which did conflict with his own avowed scientific naturalism? +Did he ever come not merely to see as a possibility but actually to possess a conviction of what can be called the benign indifference of the universe? +Personally, I don't think that he ever did. +And I think that in this sense his life was a failure, that he was never able to live up to his scientific naturalism, that he was never able to integrate his romantic nature with his view of the nature of the universe. +In a conversation with the wife of his biographer, Alan Wood, erm who had drawn his attention to some injustice in the world, he said, ‘But the universe is unjust.’ +There he is, saying the universe is unjust. +What can that mean, if you really believe in scientific naturalism? +‘The secret of happiness is to face the fact that the world is horrible, horrible, horrible. +You must feel it deeply and not brush it aside, you must feel it right here, and then you can start being happy again.’ +He is still personalizing the universe. +And if I think you were to read the first two pages of his autobiography, there's a dedicatory verse on another page, I can't help feeling that you will agree with me that, in a, there's something embarrassing about them. +It seems extraordinary to say, but it's as if his emotions were still erm sort of adolescent, as if there was something in him which was never able to reconcile with his intellectual attitudes. +Now, of course, here is Russell personalizing this impersonal universe. +What are we to say? +Is that success or failure? +Plainly, your attitude will depend on who you are and what you believe. +If you're a theist, you will say, ‘Well, here is Russell's deeper conviction of the true nature of things bursting through the false, restrictive, scientific intellectualism into which he endeavoured to confine it, and so what we have here, when he calls the world unjust, or fearful, or whatever it may be, are his true, his ultimate convictions peeping through.’ +That would be the theist's view. +But, supposing we look at the same material from the standpoint of, say the authors of the Upanishads, with whom as a matter of fact I happen to agree. +On this point. +Now, from their standpoint the thing would look quite otherwise. +They believe that it is possible for man, and that it is indeed his highest intellectual and emotional task, to survey his own being, to call into the forefront of his mind every attitude and habit of mind, of emotion, of passion and feeling, to penetrate down beneath these superficial layers, to deeper and deeper and ever more tranquil, untroubled generalized forms of the self, until eventually you come within sight of some inner absolutely undisturbed pool which every person has within himself, and which if he finds it removes him finally from the distracting passions of ordinary life, and with this rider, that in proportion as you get there and find this thing, this true self within yourself, you find that it isn't just something subjective and peculiar to you, it is something identical with the world, so that in solving your own problems in one sense, you do it by transcending your ordinary nature. +If you take that kind of view, then of course Russell's persistent emotionality and his characterization of the world in these personal terms is a failure, erm something that he was never able to overcome, something for all his passionate moral convictions prevented him from really seeing himself at one with other people. +And one of the things which always disturbs me most about Russell is his emphasis upon pity, what moves him so is the emotion of pity for other people. +if I were in real distress, and I was told, Mary, that you pitied me, it wouldn't cheer me up at all. +There's something terribly patronizing about pity erm and from this it seems to me Russell never quite freed himself. +And so, judged from my standpoint, erm which is that of other ancient and distinguished editions, I would say that in this respect he did ultimately fail, but failed in the most lovable, eloquent and memorable manner. +erm Three concluding remarks. +I don't understand Russell's philosophy of mathematics, erm my treatment of his religious attitudes is still in the state of hypothesis. +I would need to read the whole of that alarming corpus over again before I was quite sure of it, and I apologize for this extra quarter of an hour. + +Good evening. +Are we ready? +Can I say two minutes for what I think might happen and where we've derived some of the authority from. +Then maybe we could introduce ourselves seeing as there's some folk here who haven't met everybody before. +And after that er we shall be taking the running order which is then a sketch next,which is not cast yet +because we didn't know who was coming and who wasn't. +But I'm sure we'll man we'll manage that okay. +The there's five organizations which Justice and Peace comes across quite a lot. +These are CAFOD, Christian Aid, Oxfam, Traidcraft and World Development Movement. +Comes a comes across some others as well, but it comes across these five very frequently. +And at the moment, all five of them have joined together on a single campaign, which is about trade. +This concerted action is pretty unusual. +So I was wanting to to mention why it looks like it's happened just now. +An erm I'm looking at a Christian Aid produced brochure called Trade for Change, which is the name of Christian Aid's campaign. +E each of the organizations has got th s slightly different version o of the same campaign. +The front cover says,how would you feel if you were working just as hard today as ten years ago, but earning a third less ? +And it says that's what's happening to the poorest communities, the poorest countries in the Third World. +And wh why that's happening is really what we're going to be spending the evening on, and it's related to international trade. +Historically, poor countries were introduced to international trade by rich ones like ours,because they were introduced as colonies. +Their role was to pro to provide raw materials to countries like Britain and France, classically. +And they were also markets for manufactured goods. +Goods we cou which were manufactured in our countries. +Now the colonial era has gone, at least in name,but things haven't changed. +The poorest countries still produce the raw materials. +But the rich countries, ourselves, do the rest. +They provide the shipping, the processing and the selling. +The processing is done over here by and large, which is where the profit is and in the selling. +And sometimes it's all done by the same company. +And when we get onto coffee, that's will come alive. +Anyway, this is all heavy stuff. +So we were going to have a sketch. +What about then? +Oh I'm sorry dear. +Cos I've put it up. +Yes. +I know. +But we haven't introduced each other have we? +No. +The pleasure's been +So I I'll move back a bit. +Having said we would introduce ourselves, perhaps we should. +If I start with me. +I'm called Charlie. +I'm married to Moira over there. +And we're two of the people in York erm who work for Traidcraft. +There are o others as well. +We're involved in some other organizations as well would you mind s going next? +Yes. +Erm my name is Richard, Richard . +Margaret's husband. +Margaret. +Are we really supposed to say something about ourselves as well is it ? +If you wish. +Well, I'm Rachel.. +I'm Sheila , and I'm . +I'm Theresa , but I'm not any relation to Sheila . +I'm Aidan . +And I'm Bernadette. +missionary. +and . +I'm Raymond, and I attend the Friends' Meeting here. +Only just moved to York, so I haven't erm kind of got affiliation with anything. +I'm Denise, and I come here occasionally. +I'm Mary, and I usually come to the meetings. +Erm my name's Derek, and I'm taping the meeting as most of you know so far. +Erm +I'm Nancy , and this is the first time I've come to one of these meetings. +I'm living and working in Derbyshire and just back in York for the school holidays. +Anne. +Erm I'm part of the Justice and Peace group. +Margaret. +Sister. +I'm David. +David . +I'm history . +I'm Moira and I'm a friend of David's. +I'm a friend of a friend. +Right we're going to have a sketch now. +Which hopefully will work out okay. +There is a script, but erm we haven't cast the players except Anne, who's going to play Doreen. +Anne said she worked in a factory at one time. +I was a student. +Popcorn factory? +So the it says it's a short story. +It's called, Just links in a Chain. +It's produced by Christian Aid and it's part of its Christian Aid week's activity. +It's about the experiences of a, a cocoa worker in north east of Brazil,and a chocolate factory worker in Birmingham. +These roles, two people, the cocoa worker's called Maria,the chocolate factory worker is Doreen. +It says they're based on actual interviews with the women involved and that some additional parts have been written to show how they are in fact involved in a global chain. +Producing chocolate. +Now some people have already been passed these by me while they were still getting ourselves together. +If they had time to have had a look er, if someone could, could take the part of Maria. +Would that be helpful? +And after that we have a man called Heg who I presume is a man anyway, it looks like a man's name. +Would that be okay for you David? +Yeah. +Then there's a, a man called Joe. +Richard? +And probably a man called Balakrishnan. +If that's a man's name. +And would anyone who's got a paper already, like to take the part of Zoe? +Denise? +And Carol.. +Yes,i if everyone has read the the final paragraph who's involved before we begin. +The final paragraph on +Erm i erm on the first page, I'm sorry. +Thank you. +Is that yesterday's now? +Hello, I'm Maria. +It's eleven A M here in the cocoa plantations of Bahia in north east Brazil, and it's already ninety degrees in the shade . +Oh. +What am I supposed to do? +Yeah. +I see right. +I'm sorry . +What are we supposed to do? +I should go back into the chair . +I'm Doreen. +It's two P M here, and I'm in the Bourneville chocolate factory in Birmingham, concentrating on the next batch of Cadbury's Flake. +It's freezing cold, about ninety degrees in the open, but I'm glad of the rain for the garden . +My job is to slice open the tough cocoa pods with a sharp knife, and scoop out the beans. +I need my four oldest children to help. +We squat on the ground, eating our lunch as we go, and work as fast as we can for eleven hours every day. +The beans are dried and exported all over the world we don't know where. +We are just links in a chain . +I've worked here in the factory for twenty three years. +My father worked here, and my brothers work here now. +As a result of my union work, I've come to understand how I am linked to a chain too . +Even when we all work, it is difficult to earn even the minimum wage for one, which is about nine pounds a month. +It's not enough to feed the family. +What's more, my husband is ill, and I can't afford to buy his medicine. +I'm angry. +I need a living wage . +A few years ago, members of our union who were unloading cocoa beans when they arrived in the U K, began getting sick. +We had no idea why, and took the matter up. +We were angry as well. +Around that time, we heard about a network, which could link us up to other cocoa workers around the world. +We became a link, and joined the chain . +I'm Heg, a member of the network. +It's called the Transnational Information Exchange, or T I E for short. +Our office is in Holland. +We told Doreen about Maria and her friends in Brazil, because we were links and had joined the chocolate chain . +When Heg told us about TIE's contacts in Brazil, we wrote to them . +Doreen's letter told us about the mysterious sickness. +We discovered that it was because of the pills put between the cocoa bean sacs to kill insects. +The pills were highly poisonous. +We protested . +We protested . +When we heard about the problem from Heg, we protested. +I'm Joe, a member of the cocoa workers' union in Ghana. +We were worried about the poisonous pills too. +We became the we became a link, and joined the chain . +I'm Balakrishnan, a cocoa worker in Malaysia. +When we learned of the mysterious sickness, we protested, became a link, and joined the chain . +As a result, the cocoa exporters cut down the use of the toxic pills . +In nineteen eighty nine, two hundred cocoa workers in Bahia were threatened with the sack. +Some said it was because we had harvested too many beans, but it was because our union was getting stronger. +We protested . +We protested . +We protested . +We protested . +And we protested, writing letters to everyone we could think of. +To the company, the union, even the president . +Our employers took notice of the letters. +They learnt of the links who had But they learnt of the links who had joined the chain. +They backed down. +Our jobs were saved. +Then the next year, we heard from England that one of our friends at the chocolate factory was facing dismissal. +We protested . +We protested . +We protested . +We protested . +And we protested. +When we heard about, when we heard about the faxes that had come in from all around the world. +The company was inundated. +They learned of the links that had joined the chain. +I was reinstated . +Now we are all links in a stronger chain. +When we hear of problems facing chocolate workers anywhere, we take action, remembering how links in the chain have helped us . +All this talk of chocolate is making me feel hungry, and chocolate is my special passion. +I'll be a link and join the chain . +This week is Christian Aid week, and we must ensure that people earn a fair return for their labour. +I'll be a link and join the chain too . +For us, life before death means +Sufficient food for my children . +A living wage . +Healthy working conditions . +Medicine for my husband . +The freedom to join a union . +Enjoying a bar of chocolate without expl exploiting others . +Secure jobs for all . +The chance to work together in search of a fair deal for all. +Why not join us? +Become a link and join the chain . +Thank you everyone. +This is from a Christian Aid Week publication called God of the Fair Measure which is obtainable from Christian Aid if people want. +There's an order form on the back of this photocopy. +And that's free. +Right. +Next bit, information and figures wh erm we erm it's a bit of a background as to what world trade is and how big it is. +Erm I'd like to start by saying we are all links in a chain, we are all consumers. +We're all part of the world trade system. +We all eat and drink things every day that have come from overseas, Third World countries. +Unless we're extremely green, I suppose there's some people who don't. +Er I think probably all of us here today have eaten something or drunk something that's wasn't grown in this country. +Erm I was looking through some of the books for some of the startling figures and things that happen in world trade. +One of the things that came across was that the average sixteen year old leaving school this year in the U K will spend a million pounds in their lifetime. +They will all have enormous consumer power. +And how they choose to spend it can affect things that happen in the world. +There's a couple of enlarged pages from Christian Aid book, Raw Deal, Trade and the World's Poor, which came out last year? +I think as the first part of their trade campaign. +Erm this one here is about how very large companies control an enormous part of the world trade. +Cereals which is wheat, rice corn. +Five companies control seventy seven percent of the trade. +Bananas, three companies control eighty percent of world trade. +Cocoa another three companies control eighty three percent of the world trade. +Tea is eighty five percent by three companies. +And tobacco is eighty seven percent by four companies. +And some of these companies are in such as er Nestle appear in cocoa, and they also appear as very big players in other commodities. +Nestle are the biggest commodity traders in the world trade for cocoa, milk and coffee. +And after oil, coffee is the biggest commodity single product in world trade. +And Nestle control eleven percent of that that world trade. +They're the biggest single company. +And er a couple of quotes from Nestle. +They had a report in nineteen seventy six called Nestle in developing countries where they said,The volume of our purchases of cocoa and coffee is so vast that it influences the market of those commodities . +They actually said then that they contr that they had an influence on how on the cost and where they bought it from. +But when New Consumer was writing this book Global Consumer, a couple of years ago,they sent a questionnaire to Nestle. +And erm the reply was,is the New Consumer seriously suggesting that Nestle pay in excess of market prices ? +So they er they agree that they have an influence on market prices, but they, they won't, are not prepared to pay any more than they have to. +Allied Lyons who is also a major part of the British coffee trade, replied to the Global Consumer, that the fairness of trading was the responsibility of governments and GATT, it'd got nothing to do with them. +They only buy things, they're only part of the trading system, but how fair that is has nothing to do with them. +Can i do you want figures on commodities I think quite a lot of us are aware that coffee prices have gone down in the last ten years. +Certainly as far as we're concerned at Traidcraft, when we started eight years ago a packet of coffee was two pound twenty five. +It's now one pound sixty. +And Traidcraft have tried to keep the price up to people. +The world price has gone down below that. +In Brazil there are all sorts of commodities whose price has gone down over the last ten years. +A kilo of in Brazil now brings in a fifth of what it did in eighty, nineteen eighty three. +And in Nicaragua, one pound of coffee beans is actually a quarter of what it was in nineteen seventy seven. +And g to go back to Brazil and the coffee workers there, the mo minimum statutory monthly wage for a cocoa plantation worker in Brazil is nine pounds for the month. +Many people don't earn that anyway. +And it cost sixty pence in this country to buy, buy a small bar of chocolate. +But the workers have only been paid nine pounds for the month. +United Kingdom confectionery trade is worth two point six billion pounds, billion,and two years ago a figure that really astonished me when I saw it was that the total of all money that was given to development charities in the United Kingdom, including CAFOD, Christian Aid and Oxfam was equal to what Britain spent on one product made in York and that's KitKat. +Pound for pound it's the same. +Money given by who to? +Everyone to Oxfam,Christ the total income of Oxfam, Christian Aid, Save the Children, CAFOD, was the same as what we spent on one product. +Do you know what the product was? +KitKat. +Which really brought it home, that it was you know. +Another thing I found out today was do we know where our m main supplier of our coffee is? +Any guesses? +Which country? +Mm. +Which country is er the biggest single supplier of coffee to this country. +Kenya. +Yemen. +Brazil. +It's Uganda. +Uganda. +It relies on its coffee for ninety seven percent of its exports. +Terribly dependent on coffee. +Another thing that surprised me more than anything was, our main supplier of tea, which we get over half our tea from now, is Kenya. +And the amount of it we get from India and Sri Lanka ha has gone down quite a lot. +Do they send to somebody else, or is their total production down? +Part of it as far as I could see was in India that i India India's actually got it's quite a success story for development in a lot of ways. +And as people in India have got wealthier, they're just drinking more tea. +There's a huge domestic market for tea in India. +Sri Lanka part of the trouble is the civil war. +But also there's a the Soviet Union used to grow a lot of its own tea, but it grew it round Chernobyl and it had to start importing a lot of tea. +The Soviet Union's a big oh ex-Soviet Union now, was a big drinker of tea, so you . +I thought Georgia was their main tea area? +There's a, apparently a lot of it has been affected by Georgia's not that far away is it? +Well, it's a fair distance, yes. +Th that's what th the books are saying, that it's that production of tea in the Soviet Union has gone down. +Would it have been affected by fallout from Chernobyl? +I have no idea how i it went around a up in the northern hemisphere, over Scandinavia, and Georgia's in the south, so you'd have think it'd have been weak by the time it got down I'm not a scientist, I have no idea what +Maybe they're more cauti cautious than we have been in this country about the effect of Chernobyl. +Erm Of the total of goods that are sold in industrialized countries, such as, that have been manufactured, only three percent of them are made in developing countries. +Which comes on really to the second thing. +We in the north, and in the E E C in particular, have a policy of encouraging, or discouraging, Third World countries from from doing anything to the, the commodities at all , apart from exporting them raw as far as possible. +And we do that by tariffs. +Into the E E C, raw coffee has an import tariff of nine percent. +But if it's an extract or instant coffee made into instant coffee, the tariff is double, it's eighteen percent on it. +For cocoa beans, it's three per cent for cocoa beans that we were talking about in the in the sketch. +By the time it's become cocoa powder or chocolate, it's sixteen percent tariff on it. +And dried fruit, tropical fruit, eight percent when it's fresh or dry, but if people, if Third World countries prepare it into fruit juices, then it's twenty three percent tariff that they put on it. +Ninety s percent of the coffee that er is drunk in the U K is instant coffee. +Which is the most processed form of coffee you can get. +And erm forty percent of that is one coffee. +Or Nescafe's blend. +And another sixteen percent is the other Ne Nestle coffee erm Blend Thirty Seven which I used to drink a long time ago and others and twenty two percent is er +Maxwell. +Maxwell House, which has become the other local brand now seeing as how Maxwell House is owned by Kraft, and Kraft now own Terry's. +When you start looking at fair trade,we always say that Traidcraft is a fair trade company. +When people ask us in the street what it is. +And normally the short cut to tell people fair trade company and it tries to give, pay people a fair price for what they've made. +But fair trade as we saw from that sketch, involves a lot more than just fair wages. +And for the next part we're going to divide hopefully into groups and what I'd like you to consider is when you're thinking about buying a product, what questions you ask. +That you know if it's been traded fairly. +I think we've all got used to, with some products at least, asking questions about how green it is, whether it's recycled paper, whether it's going to destroy the ozone layer, as well as asking questions like what price is it, but if we're going to decide whether one jar of coffee is fair-traded as opposed to another one, what questions do we need to kn know the answers to, to decide that. +So if we could get into groups of maybe about four. +And perhaps come up with four or five answers four or five questions not answers +that erm you think you might need to, to ask to find out. +How long have we got to ? +Erm about ten minutes? +Piece of paper. +Yes, but that wouldn't tell us, would it? +Would it tell us? +Would it . +What questions do you think we need to know? +And you want to know whether it would be more expensive. +Mhm. +Yes ah. +No, it's, the questions are, what questions do you need to know the answer to when finding if something was fairly traded? +not when you were buying it? +Well it might if it was more expensive but I mean it might just be more expensive anyway. +I say, has it got the fair-trade mark on it? +The fair-trade mark like erm a kite mark. +I didn't even know there was one. +I think there's going to be, I don't know whether there is so I sh I should ask fair-trade mark. +where the money goes . +I mean, don't know wh how to word that. +I mean, I've always been . +I never bought things from South Africa for many years, because of what was happening in South Africa. +Er +There's so many people in between I . +I'm putting your question down , is it a lot more expensive than it would be in the, in the producer country, which is what you said really, isn't it? +If we know the answer to it. +Er +I'd want to know how much the people who are working on it at all stages are paid, if they're paid a living wage. +Mm. +And I would want to know what the health effects were on them of the conditions in which they had to work. +There was something happened to Nestle with regarding erm the mothers and the milk in Africa I'm not quite sure what it was. +I think Nestle have had to change their policy, because they were selling it and advertising it, and it was obviously doing harm to the children. +I mean, Nestle had to abandon that. +Mhm. +Yes. +Yes, that's not quite the same thing as fairly traded though. +Well, it is in a way because it affects, involves the person's health, so it's important. +But those, that was the consumer wasn't it? +It was I think because the powder was er pushed by the, the er company in Third World hospitals, and when the mothers went out they hadn't got safe water to mix it with. +It's not quite what Moira's asking . +No so therefore I don't want to buy Nestle because of that. +Yeah, but I think that's something different isn't it to fair trading? +Er I think, you know +What is, what concerns fair trade you know you've got to think +Denise said she wouldn't buy erm the Nescafe because of the baby milk you see, so I thought that was slightly a different topic t er to the one we were asking about fair trade. +Well, yes, I suppose one of the questions you could ask is, is there a boycott against the company? +Right. +But yeah, I think that'll do because because the boycott is because of their unfair trading. +I mean I would never buy it, but I would try not to buy anything . +And they went and bought it in Brazil instead imported from Brazil where people are working for nothing. +I mean, I am not that involved with this, but I've been following that . +It's difficult to know which country the cocoa comes from because you don't know where they buy it. +They buy it from one country one time another country another time. +They used to buy from Ghana a lot and er at one time they stopped it and this very nearly brought down Ghana's economy right down. +That was about twenty years ago almost twenty years ago, so where they buy it now I don't know. +One just doesn't know. +What was that last question? +Where, where do they buy their cocoa? +So shall I put, where is the r where, where is the raw material from? +Cos it's not just cocoa is it, all sorts of things erm +They change from one country to another and that that lets some countries down on their economy. +They've been doing that for a they take it from and they put it in cheap cheap labour. +The whole thing is, is it's +They moved the Hoover factory from France to +Yes. +Britain because they get cheaper labour. +Britain's become a Third World country. +Well it is almost a Third World country actually. +In some respects . +Only for some. +Are they still enough? +No, we've done very well. +I know. +We've done very well cos there's four we've got five questions and we were only asked for four. +So we've got a spare one. +So I'll just read them out. +Has it got a fair-trade mark? +Is it a lot more expensive than it would be in the producer country? +I put in brackets middle men. +And what do they do with the money as well I'd like to know. +Do they buy arms and things like this er +Erm what are the health risks to producers or processors? +Is there a boycott against the product? +Er where do the raw materials for the product come from. +Ch cheap labour in certain countries. +interesting to hear about India, about tea, because er my daughter is working in India quite a lot and it is very high poverty for people. +So, you know some of the tea some of the workers population is working in India. +I mean the poverty is greater than in Africa or anywhere ah in the world. +you know. +Well it's er the same idea as Thatcherism that some of the people are going to become very wealthy. +And the others are going to be the same rather less. +Any more ideas? +Did you put down ? +I'd go along with most of those. +It's really a question of finding out where the material is coming from and knowing what the conditions are like there. +Mm. +It's really a question of knowing where the raw materials are coming from, where the product comes from and what the conditions are like there, but, of course it's all very well saying it's a question of what but er how many people involved are going to know that? +If you go into a shop, there aren't very many shops besides somewhere like Traidcraft who will know so +O only for fruit really. +Fruit's about the only thing you can ask which country. +Some things they're obliged to tell you where those come from aren't they? +Yes. +Yes at the moment another time I wasn't going to buy anything from Chile, and er I was asking the young man who was is this from Chile, oh I don't want them. +He said I don't buy them either. +tell management. +But the Green Consumer Gui Guide, I have two daughters buying them for Christmas presents for friends, when they came out, so that people should be very aware of what . +I have thought of a question. +Good. +Erm because as Moira said that Kraft is erm now what was she saying, what was she saying Kraft is the same as +Craft? +Traidcraft? +No. +Maxwell. +Maxwell House. +Maxwell House is Kraft +Oh yes, they're owned by Kraft yes, yes. +which is Terry's isn't it. +So erm is the company erm part of er a bigger company? +Part of a multinational. +Under these new European trade regulations, they seem not to tell where the things originate. +now got to trying to decide is that made in England, or was it made in Germany or . +Put in brackets Terry's equals er Maxwell House or Kraft. +Oh well, we've got six so that's quite How have you come to join us tonight? +What how did you? +I saw Charlie at church on Good Friday. +Oh. +How did you come to know about the group? +It was er advertised in the er it's advertised in the paper, and when I saw it there well, I er recordings from as many places as possible and it's an ideal opportunity +Could we come back into the group now? +I'm an ex-student. +Right, can we +We came upon the idea of asking this question as the result of going to a for Change conference. +The reason I went last year it was Birmingham, May. +And one of the workshops I went to was by someone called Richard . +And he's involved in launching the fair-trade mark of which a little bit more later. +He wrote this book, he started Traidcraft off, he was the person who was i his brainchild, he was the driving force behind it for a long time. +Then he went on to the Global the New Consumer, looking at ways and how consumer power could be used for ethical purposes. +Er and the Global Consumer was, was one of the fruits of that. +His others are Shopping for a Better World and a few other books that were produced. +Is it Richard +Not Richard who wrote Watership Down. +Watership Down no, no. +altogether. +. +That was his brother. +He's probably coming up to about forty six now but he, he was quite young when he started off with Traidcraft and everything. +And he asked us to er at that time in May they were looking at what criteria they were going to judge products to award a fair-trade mark to them. +And he asked us in a group to to suggest some things that we might think of as being important. +And he had a list which I've, I've got there and er I think he got two things suggested that were on his list from the group of people who were supposed to be aware and er about twenty things which he thought maybe they should have thought about, and hadn't . +Our first question is has it got the fair-trade mark? +Mm. +Right, I'll put that up. +And the answer'll be no, cos nothing has at the moment. +Now we know why we haven't seen it. +Mm yeah. +Yes. +Could something be done about fair trade? +What's the name of the company? +And with that goes, who, who owns the company as well I think. +Mm. +Mm. +For instance, we buy Batchelors, and that's owned by Nestle. +Really?who owns things. +Chambourcy as well. +Nestle have actually started putting their labels on the pro the company on quite a lot and the logo on. +But not everything has it. +We discovered Perrier water last week. +We don't buy Nestle now at all. +Perrier? +Yes. +Erm we'd want to know erm how the crop was produced. +Erm whether it was you know produced on a plantation? +Or +small farmers and, what producing it would represent? +Er grown as a cash crop or er or erm +We were thinking about coffee at the time in particular, and quite a few of the people wanted to know that. +. +You want to write? +Eh? +You want to write? +No. +Er er oh erm oh right oh. +Er well right back here again I think er +Yeah. +erm how many middle persons it might have passed through. +Mary? +Erm is there a boycott against the product in force? +Such as the one against erm erm n now, now Nestle then erm baby milk thing. +Erm what is the price? +Is it being charged enough for it, you mean? +the opposite. +So it's fair trade +You wouldn't have got want it honest thing . +If it is an important consideration of the price tells whether people buy it fairly or not, but you know if the price is very high then . +Even though we know that comparatively we're all millionaires. +Mhm. +Yeah. +. +Erm we would like to know whether the food's been produced cleanly, say organically. +Erm or at least cleanly without noxious chemicals. +For example I can remember erm hearing that erm Spanish some Spanish oran orange growers who grow their oranges under tunnels, er were getting very depressed because of the erm chemicals they were spraying on them had a harmful effect on their nervous systems. +Er this is sort of thing we, you know, might want to know. +Erm the amount of packaging. +Very topical I would imagine with the . +Mm. +Yes. +The packaging they use is illegal. +You know, that could be linked to how clean it's been grown. +Environmental. +Mm. +. +Why have there been . +We've er we've got two th already put together. +Erm what's the obvious appearance of the product?and i and what's the contents of the product, like additives and things. +We particularly mentioned monosodium glutamate. +Mm. +Do the workers have any erm powers of negotiation over the price paid and what they're going to be paid. +Wages. +What were you saying about packaging,? +Well, yeah, well it's just very wasteful +It's just so wasteful, right, +whether it's unnecessary packaging. +You would think it'd be more hygienic. +I could see that would be more green, but I just didn't know how it was more fair. +Well, it just sort of +It would indicate more middle people, for one thing. +Yeah there'd be . +Yeah. +Likely that. +More processed. +You know. +Part of the price of the packaging would be taken off the wages. +Somebody might be paid then to do packaging. +One packaging, is important . +Mm. +We were influenced by media coverage. +Have there had been any stories in the media or er television programmes. +For example er,. +What were the sausages ? +There was a lot of erm protests after a World in Act was it a World in Action on tea estates in India and Sri Lanka? +And er that was quite a few years ago, about the conditions and on tea estates, and er er that was partly why we switched mostly to Kenyan tea I think after that. +There must have been something. +I can't remember exactly what it was but there was I've got a very strong memory of +There was a, there was a big campaign against Brooke Bond because of their conditions and . +And they're supposed to have improved a lot through pressure. +Someone? +Yeah. +Jean? +Erm well we'd, we'd got something on trying to ascertain if things had been produced by a multinational, which I suppose ties in with probably with, with three down. +Yeah. +Why would you say something wouldn't be fairly traded? +Well, if I could see that +. +The European Association of Fair Trade Companies they're getting towards it. +Mm. +Well . +We also thought perhaps erm looking at things like workers' cooperatives as well. +Workers' right to negotiate in cooperatives, mm? +Any more? +I also think, on er sort of workers' rights, I mean if you know the person that's made it, like a local butcher, I would trust more to make I would trust more than . +Mhm. +You're in a better position to ask the questions if you know who's actually made the aren't you? +Yeah. +Yeah. +Mm. +So there's no question +they can better. +Ah. +That would identify the producer or the manufacturer. +Right. +Erm there's a couple of examples from two statements of fair trade. +One is Traidcraft's purchasing policy, which is slightly different to how it decides whether it's going to buy from a particular group, people who're producing something. +This is some of the questions it asks them. +When somebody approaches Traidcraft to sell their products for them, they get a, a detailed, four-page I think, questionnaire to fill in about the company, and how they run and what they do. +And the five main points that are covered is whether it's organized for the benefit of its members,which partly comes into that, but it goes a bit beyond that I think. +The workers' rights. +Not just the right to negotiate, but to but the organization should actually be organized to benefit the people who are part of it. +Are they concerned for the personal welfare of individual producers? +Which I suppose is in . +Does it pay wages and provide working conditions which are or above the average of its locality? +I think we haven't got here that, fair wages . +Whether people have actually been paid a fair wage for what they've made. +Mhm. +Yeah. +Well, record of country of origin, I think that definitely +Mhm. +And workers' rights. +I mean, it's practically impossible to know that +Yes, but we definitely talked about that. +just by looking at the product. +Yes. +But that is part of the question that they need to know the answers. +I mean what is the wage policy for that country? +I know India has got a wage minimum for the tea workers now. +And tea estates in India have now got to be owned by Indians or by the Indian government. +It's for making products which are now or are potentially viable commercially. +That is something to do with Traidcraft that they erm they quite often work with groups who have been set up by carriages from Europe. +So they've actually got to be making something that's that can be sold or can be sold in the near future if they . +And it must pay no more than a reasonable service fee to agents. +Middle persons. +Oh yes. +If they are involved at all. +And sometimes it's quite difficult I think to get away from middle persons because that is it's part of the structure of the c the country you're dealing with and so to cut down on exploitation from the mi but as to how far you can actually impose your, your culture as well. +There's a fair-trade mark. +This was set up by the Fair Trade Foundation which you were asking about,. +And it was set up by CAFOD, Christian Aid, the New Consumer, Oxfam, Traidcraft Exchange, which is the charity side of Traidcraft and the World Development Movement. +And it was to look at basic supermarket products really that are sourced from the Third World, and to try and have a standard that you could say, yes, that's been traded fairly. +And the idea is that points will be awarded th for which they will pay a, a licence fee . +And they will actually be looked at quite closely will individual products. +And it won't be for the whole of a c of a company's range, it'll just be for one specific product at a time. +So I know when, when the ne the negotiations were originally going on was with Lyons' coffee, for one of their coffees which came from a particular known estate not for the whole range of Lyons' coffees. +And er they set out this basic charter of the things that they thought erm were important to fair trade. +And part of that is them buying from responsible producers or suppliers,which is looking at the record of the company. +Whether there's a boycott against them? +Have we had that ? +Yes. +Oh . +Erm whether there's fair wages are paid as part of the and the conditions of employment, including the right to organize. +That's something that erm a great many of the multinationals will er try to get round very er and the other, other thing they'll have to pay fair price which reflects the cost of production and the quality of the product, plus a margin for investment and development. +Er this was partly because some products multi er go through from plant to supermarket shelf with one company such as bananas, quite often, are produced on a company's plantation. +And they grow the bananas, export them, and wholesale them in this country. +Other products are bought on the commodity exchanges, like to a large extent tea cocoa and a few other things like Rowntrees buying cocoa from Ghana but now they seem to buy it anywhere that they can get it cheaply. +And erm so if they're buying it on the, on the market,th the company should pay a fair price for, for what they've bought. +There's also providing financial credit, where necessary, to protect the producer against production uncertainties, and financial exploitation. +If you plant a crop, it's quite a long time before it +it comes to fruition. +If you plant coffee it's about five years before you can harvest any coffee. +And erm for a small coffee grower,i it's quite vital that they have some financial credit. +And to be a fair traded product, the charter says that erm the company who are selling the products should have an input at that level . +There's another one that we haven't got as well. +Which equal rewards for men and women. +Mm. +Encouraging them. +One of the things we didn't mention, deliberately, which I, I know Richard said they had a long debate about was child labour. +And they deliberately haven't said that it shouldn't be produced by child labour. +Which is recognizing that children play a vital r role in a lot of coun in a lot of families. +And perhaps only at certain times of the year, especially in agricultural communities. +But erm they haven't put a prohibition on about them. +The other one, identifying and encouraging environmentally sust sus sustainable production, which is how it's being ? +How's it been grown? +What were the farming methods? +And establishing stable trading relationships on the basis of quality, continuity, mutual support. +For what, for anyone who is a small producer or even a medium-sized basic produced commodity, having a stable market is extremely important. +To know that there's someone going to buy your crop over a long period of time, or part of your crop, ideally, over a long period of time, does help people to plan ahead. +And that's everything really. +Just there'll now be a short reflection. +Is that what time is it, please? +Quarter to nine. +Expecting there would be lots of talk about economics, I was wanting to talk about morality,which are nearer to the gospel. +Traidcraft itself describes its activities as bringing love and justice into international trade. +I think that's the words Traidcraft uses. +Which is recognizing that it's not there to start with. +Er the first letter of John, chapter four. +My dear friends, let us love one another. +All love comes from God . +If love is the character of God,laid down through the gospel. +It's older translation, it's translated as charity, in the prayer book which gives the idea of giving immediate assistance to me not a theoretical future when we're talking about trade, but an immediate . +And charity does seem to be relevant, when we're hearing that people now, in our own time are really in a an awful state in parts of the world. +But if the the reason this has occurred is because of a poverty amongst rich countries rich people which is causing poverty amongst poor people which is material. +Maybe this rich people's poverty is, is a moral poverty. +When we think of love, when we try to do something about it, the word that comes into mind then, is justice. +That takes on from charity. +But it's not really us in Britain who are saying this,people in Britain are saying this anyway. +in Brazil the archbishop now in his late eighties I should think was renowned everywhere said that there's a quote here from him on the Traidcraft leaflet. +If the affluent countries, East and West, Europe and the U S are willing to pay fair prices to the developing countries for their natural resources, they can keep their aid and relief plans . +So whereas aid at present is vital, cos there's people starving to actually put the situation right i it's not a question of aid at all, not a question of relief. +It's because the situation is. +A person called Jose , who was another man from another part of the world, a man from Brazil, along with and who are two sisters two nuns I mean have, have toured the world promoting base Christian communities. +When I heard him speak, he had a lot to say about this. +A lot to say about idols. +We don't talk about idolatry very much in Britain. +He's saying that the material of the West is an idol. +And we cause the hunger and poverty, we, as the West, not necessarily as individuals because we insist on a lifestyle that acquires things and in doing that, er we've subverted God. +There's another book here, which is th the book we've had the most difficulty in selling. +I don't think we've ever sold a copy of this one. +It's called The Road to Damascus,Chiros and Conversion and it's a document signed by Christians from all sorts of countries, they all agree with the contents of this. +Clause forty nine, Idolatry. +Idolatry is a sin of worshipping, or being subservient to someone, or something, which is not God. +Treating some created thing as if it were God . +It seems people in other countries can see ourselves much better than we are. +And it's more than that, mainly because the people in Africa, and Asia and Latin America particularly,a are being sacrificed to the idol. +Generation after generation really, but the, the pace is quickening. +With the fall of the world commodity prices really. +I've only wok woken up to this in the later part of my life, but even then, it's difficult to to put it all together but er these three of them had it more succinctly than I could. +About a fortnight ago, the, the a Brazilian bishop, another person from Brazil, came to speak in York. +He was secretary of the Brazilian bishops' conference, so he had clearly been in a position, like Jose , this bloke, to test the feeling of people in a wide area. +himself travelled throughout his country. +I this was bishop 's, that was the man's name, second visit to Britain. +In discussion, he said he'd been here once before, and he'd gone to visit the government. +And the minister asked him, what is the Church's attitude towards Third World debts? +Bishop said, It's a moral, it's a moral problem, problem. +The minister said, no it isn't, it's an economic problem. +He was very insistent about that th there was no more to be said really. +As ou our Western societies morality is an individual one. +There's a Traidcraft leaflet here which is a bible study, and has some discussion mo morality. +Our individual morality is particularly a section on morality, and that's what concerns us. +We don't think of the collective morality, the collective responsibility, in our society, for other people's distress. +And that's all the heavy stuff. +In the words of the Easter gospel according to John,when that other disci disciple went into the tomb, after Peter, he saw and believed . +And it's the same for us also. +I think we can overcome it, in the immediate sense. +That fair trading will make an immediate impact in a small way because of the reasons we're discussing. +And i its, its actual, direct consequence, it's not a theoretical thing. +That we're really talking about the re the reign of God, and how in fact God's plan is not in operation with people starving and people having not a future they c they can anticipate. +Th I think the fair trading idea is, is in two ways. +In the immediate, it's actually a sign of it, a symptom of the kingdom of God breaking out. +And at the same time, it's the achievement of it, it's how i how it will come everywhere. +Because it's an idea of solidarity. +Lastly, I'd like to go back to Jose again. +The team, when I met met them, had some banners made by base Christian communities in all parts of the world. +This is an appeal for solidarity. +They had one from northern Bolivia. +Bolivia's probably the poorest country in Latin America. +I it's not a it's not something that anyone should look for, that sort of comparison. +And on, on this banner i it had what the country produced. +I'm afraid I forgot to write it down, except th there was minerals, that was part of its wealth, there's o obviously some other parts of its wealth as well. +But what the people who had made the banner were aware of, was that they were exploited, the wealth didn't go to them. +And also on the banner was w were some scissors. +Jose explained that the scissors weren't for pruning the tree, cos that would just make it stronger. +They were to cut at the roots. +And it was a belief that to cut at the roots with small scissors would make a difference, because it would have a cumulative effect and that's why I think we can do it in our own society. +That er this group wanted to work with other groups which hadn't come to an understanding. +And Jose in fact talked er in terms of the poor evangelizing the rich. +That was how he put it in his theological terms. +And that was probably why I think he showed us that banner. +The next stage of what we're doing is trying to take things a stage further on to what action can you take for fair trade? +I in Britain we're saying. +Yeah. +Wh What things could happen now in nineteen ninety three which would make fair trade better. +Yeah. +M More likely. +Yeah. +But at an individual le level as well if you want, but no not kind of just it's not a commitment to have to go away and do something next week . +So if we go back, just for, for five minutes. +which, which quite often it's what people want. +Because that, that's going to give us something. +But if they actually put that, the ca they do +Indicative of things back in the eighteen . +We seem to be gathering all sorts of things we don't need. +Mm. +Microwaves +Try to buy more from Traidcraft. +That's very important. +More regularly, not just +We need more Traidcraft outlets. +Yes, we do yes. +If every supermarket had Traidcraft outlets, people wouldn't be forced to buy it, but at least it would be there. +Yes, and I think the prices should be in par. +You know so that they don't make other produce cheaper so that. +But the prices have got to be more haven't they, if our aim is +Yes. +to give the money where it's +Yes, but they don't put their price . +If they have Traidcraft, they don't have something which is cheaper beside it. +No, it would have to be a se a separate Traidcraft stall, I think, not the Traidcraft coffee next to the Nestle coffee. +Yes. +And even so, I think it's a thing. +Actually, it probably would be erm comparative. +Moira said it'd dropped down, two twenty five to one sixty a packet. +So I think it is quite competitive now. +Mm. +I it is competitive because people are not kind of getting the money that we pay. +They are getting less than we are paying. +No, I'm saying Traidcraft is more competitive now, +Yes, but it is different don't you see, because we are not paying import . +Well, I would have thought Traidcraft would be paying people wouldn't you? +Well, they are, but it's overall. +Things overall in the world are cheaper. +You can buy more for your money than ten years ago. +Ah, but is this only because people are suffering at the other end? +Exactly. +If we could all be persuaded to have a little less tea, coffee, chocolate, and spend and pay more for it. +And it's the same with clothing erm +I don't think the problem is quite so great with clothing is it? +Th it's been pinpointed for us that all these lovely tea, coffee, and chocolate which we all adore, is, is one of the things which is causing the greatest distress and unfairness in the world. +I think it's also . +I mean, cotton and things like this come from the Third World, doesn't it. +Some of the clothes, I mean, are definitely cheaper than they were fifteen years ago so I +Some of the things that come from China er +And also Indian cotton. +Which are in fact manufactured by Indians who sell them here very cheaply. +I, I mean I used to go to London to buy things erm and you have oh they are even in England. +Not to the extent they are in India, they are. +So, we've got one question so far. +Ask supermarkets to stock fair-traded products. +Of course if there's some section on coffee, how are you going to get them to look at Traidcraft? +I think it has to be alongside the other. +In other words, you won't make a separate section. +You'll mix it all up. +Mm. +Mm. +So any other actions suggested? +Make sure that you ask those questions before you buy any of the products. +If you don't like the answers that you get, don't buy the products. +in the market. +You go to the market, and I've been to the market, and I've said, where do your grapes come from? +And sometimes they said, I don't know. +And, well you can keep them. +In France they have to say +They can't tell me where it comes, pardon? +in France they have to say where they've come from. +Well, whether they have to in France or not, but I want to know, as a person, whether I am French, English or whatever, I want to know that kind of . +As I said boycott. +Right. +We've got, ask supermarkets to stock the products, ask the questions before buying the products anywhere. +Lobby our MPs to get this fair-trade mark legislation through. +Yes. +That's very important. +Pressure on the on the MP is . +Pressure on the MP to actually get the fair-trade mark +Well, I should think it's more perhaps the erm civil servants than one's own individual M P. +the government. +Moira was saying the minister was saying oh the it's an economic question, not a moral question. +How does one put pressure on civil servants? +They're all so anonymous? +I mean it's, it's, it's all a isn't it? +The government. +Erm yes er Denise right. +The government. +Lobby the government yes. +If it's the erm it's the ministers isn't it, not the civil servants. +It's very difficult, sometimes I can get butter from Denmark, or Holland or Ireland, and I don't know which one to get, so I just don't know how to go about it. +I've no idea. +I mean the conditions of labour, are they better in Denmark than in Holland, or +Mm. +it sounded very . +They want a few more minutes. +I just don't know. +At the end of the explanation, will we be getting coffee ? +Yes. +Coffee and cocoa. +Where do you have to put the cocoa on, there isn't an oven down there? +There's no cooker. +The microwave. +Don't do it in the microwave. +It's a fair trade . +Don't you er know how to work them, Moira? +No. +I don't. +No, I, I +I always thought there was, always thought of y you know, there was nothing that you couldn't work. +I've only got a metal jug as well, and that's no use for a microwave. +. +to talk about . +Whether it's on the subject I don't know. +Erm something they tell you throughout the , it takes quite a long time. +But erm if we could sort of shout out a few of the brilliant ideas. +Share them with people. +Would you like to start? +Erm well we decided that we would have to erm try and live more simply erm that was the only way that er erm this would work. +I if the producing countries are going to get more for their products, we're going to have to take less. +We're going to have to eat less. +Erm we'll have to consider our own lifestyles, and erm try and set a good example. +And er be willing to share what we feel about that with other people. +Er . +I'd like to erm agree with that but we . +Er to ask more questions of people, and not . +Erm and try and become better informed about what we are buying . +And talk to our friends about our purchasing techniques and explain to christian people about why we purchase certain things or don't purchase certain things. +Well I think it's absolutely necessary to do this in supermarkets but erm you know that maybe fair trading in our country supermarkets erm are not the only way to shop. +And are not a desirable way to shop in the long run. +For anybody, I don't think. +And erm I've found out in, in our area in South Bank, the local hardware shop has just shut down. +And the bloke told me that twenty five corner shops have closed down in South Bank, which is a tiny area, in ten years. +And when we're all finally forced to go to you know Tescos for our shopping, I don't think us or Third World countries are going to get much benefit from it. +Can I say so from a similar point of view, I knew somebody who used to be a butcher. +And erm there are now only twenty five percent of butchers that there were ten years ago as well. +Mhm. +And we and people don't go to butchers any more. +They buy things from the packet prepackaged stuff . +Mhm. +I it really frightens +Th there are no fishmongers at all. +I can't remember whose daughter reminded me,market used to be fishmongers all over the place. +And we've seen, as well,detrimental impact on the community . +Could I make, make a suggestion? +Which is that if we take these cards, instead of dropping in one at here there and everywhere and I doubt if anyone will take much notice of one, maybe I'm a bit personally interested in, if I say could we all drop them in at Prestos in Rougier Street? +Well I don't mean all, but you know, those who w would do that. +I think it would have more impact, don't you? +Mhm. +And, and it is th one of the few shops in town where you can buy food, where people who haven't got cars, don't go out to Clifton Moor or somewhere, and it, so just a suggestion please that +It strikes me if we were to use these cards I forget what the wording is on Patterns, but er if we, dear supermarket manager, we would like you +Dear store manager. +Sorry? +Dear store manager. +Right. +Mhm. +Mhm. +Very good. +Yes. +Er please consider stocking fair-traded products. +If it says something like that. +I mean it would be possible to specify. +It seems far too vague to me does that +Yes. +Yeah. +But like, by saying fair-traded products like +Mhm. +Well, whatever we want to say. +Yeah. +I, I think we'd have more effect if, if we'd erm gave them in at the shop where we're known by sight. +I mean, I think I'm kno known quite well at b by sight at Sainsburys. +I mean I I know various people by sight in the you know who are always lurking around, when you go to sometimes for an exchange or a something, or say you've lost your glasses and haven't found them. +You know, I should think somewhere where you are +Yeah yeah, where you are story. +They say oh we've seen that woman before, you know, in the last five years. +And I'm afraid I do shop at Sainsburys, I'm very fond of Sainsburys and I always find them very good and very obliging and very fair and all the rest of that. +It's not like . +We're combining these two ideas in fact, this would make a very good campaign for a local church wouldn't it, where people would then be doing both all directing at one supermarket . +Yeah. +Mm. +You know, perhaps there's another way of evangelizing it. +Just er write an article for a local newspaper. +On the back of a postcard it says, you know, write for further information from your, does it give any indication as to what fair trading means? +I think it's a pity +Erm +Mhm. +because there are going to be some people who won't take any further steps and erm +Er it says, to the customer, if you support fair trading and would like to see Third World farmers having decent wages and working conditions, please sign this coupon. +Give it to the manager or assistant or the person on the checkout. +Mhm. +Well, I think we should add a line , because otherwise we're going to be left with . +I know quite a few people who would do that. +Just you know . +Yeah. +There's something else that +D did you ask a question? +I don't know, were you er motioning at me or Richard? +You. +There's something else erm +Well, we w were just erm w wondering we were puzzling over was h how the poor in this country erm could help. +Because it seems that erm it's a luxury for the middle class really to be able to afford Traidcraft erm prices. +Erm the poor are only too glad to go to Sainsburys or Tescos where erm tea is half the price. +And +No but the poor can't go to Tesco stores. +Yes, exactly, Tescos is not cheap +. +You have to have cars. +Also, it's not cheap. +A few things are cheaper. +They d it's They're not cheap, it's an illusion. +Well er coffee is but nothing else is. +It makes me wonder if one of the things we're +Traidcraft is s is quite a lot more. +It is, yeah. +But you see, neither are corner shop, I mean, we've got a lovely corner shop at the roundabout but the prices packing small cos they're for the elderly and single people and that, and the prices just rocket you know so high. +I, I go because I, I feel I must support the shop, but I couldn't possibly do my family shopping there. +sort of. +You know, you only . +In Kwik Save, Nescafe is dearer than Traidcraft coffee. +Oh. +Really? +Well, Traidcraft coffee's very cheap at the moment. +And I know that the Tetleys and P G Tips tea bags are dearer as well. +Yes, I don't think anything could be cheaper than Traidcraft coffee, no. +I it seems that somebody who's keen maybe could do a bit of price comparison. +M me and Moira n never have done. +Kwik Save sort of dropped out of the sky. +Cos it landed on our corner shop. +Right. +My impression is that the cocoa from Traidcraft is very much the same price, as when I last bought it from the supermarket when you first started stocking +Mhm. +it up. +Sorry, cocoa. +Cocoa. +Yeah, that's good +In the market +So why are things so cheap in the supermarkets? +very reasonable as well. +Things, why are things cheaper in the supermarket, in comparison to Traidcraft? +It's because the multinationals are buying so much er quantity. +And that is +Well there's quantity +really what the crunch is, the price should be, they shouldn't be able to be cheaper. +And that's really what is needed for the concept of size you know. +They wouldn't be able to, to buy things so cheaply. +Yes. +When they can't buy cheaply here, they +Yes. +they go somewhere else where it is cheaper. +Yes. +I mean they've been doing that for half a century or more, only now it's getting more and they can't . +So even when we buy Traidcraft, unless it is cheaper than it was ten years ago, it shouldn't really be, should it? +No, it shouldn't. +It means that people are given less money than ever. +That's true. +You said Traidcraft was trying to keep its prices up. +Do you mean what it paid the coffee grower? +Mm. +Mhm. +I mean +Because we're definitely paying less, I'm paying thirty five P less for a packet of instant than I was even eighteen months ago. +Well, in theory up to an extent you are the answer which means that we have to buy less things, eat less, and , because we are you know that, I mean, I mean n I don't want to, I mean I'm not talking to anyone in particular, but we have a lot of very very big people and . +I was about to say seventy percent of women and forty six percent of men are overweight. +Yes. +Er we are eating much more than we need. +I mean what about apparently we eat more chocolate than any other country. +Mhm. +Do we need this chocolate? +And if, if we are not spending that money on all this er extra, we could buy the food at the price we should be buying it. +T to some extent I'm sure that's true. +That is where the complicity erm it applies to clothes, it applies to all sorts. +We are all so throwaway society you know. +Mm. +Yes that . +So you know, in time of crisis, I mean if it goes any cheaper, they'll get less and less money. +Erm +D does does this take us to Cafe Direct? +Mhm. +You were saying that the, the reason why the multinationals sell coffee very cheaply is that they buy in bulk. +And Cafe Direct, which is this one,which is the great hope of lots of people +It's a very nice coffee. +Very good coffee. +Mhm. +Very good. +er er is an attempt to follow some of the same processes, bulk buying, and erm to reduce the costs,wh which are there no matter who gets paid for what,the there are some costs. +And it's considered th that they would be able to put in larger orders by buying in bulk. +And the, the excess then wou would, would go to the producers so's it wouldn't be a another multinational. +So how do you deal with the middle people with fair trading, and with the Third World goods? +Erm why I am saying this because I have erm I know young people work with Guatemalans. +And er so she goes to Guatemala, and she goes for my er one of my daughters a wedding present, and she er a lovely dress, and she bought it in Guatemala for thirty pounds, she . +Er if you go to Liberty's in London, the very same thing is ninety pounds ninety five. +So who is getting all that extra money in between? +So what happens in, in the profit stage? +W with Cafe Direct,i it goes, the direct contact with the producers, which are in fact groups of cooperatives, erm I think that's right isn't it? +Yes. +And, and that's part of the direct in the Cafe Direct. +Th the there are, there are of people. +Ah. +So it's producer to Traidcraft? +Mhm. +Well, it's not only Traidcraft. +Cafe Direct is a consortium of four different organizations, one of which is Traidcraft, another is Oxfam, and th there're two other fair-trading organizations as well, called Equal Exchange and Twin Trading. +Mhm. +And so i i it's the four organizations together,a and they have in fact come together in order to, to be able to put larger orders, and to pay in advance, so that people are able to budget. +Which is completely different to how the multinationals carry on. +Mm. +Er a at present, the, the coffee is all Latin American, or Central American but i i it's intended and it's all ground coffee at present it's intended it will include African coffee as well . +Mhm. +And it's also intended it will become instant maybe at the year end and then be decaffeinated but that that is more in the distance because of the unit cost in, in the process. +Er it costs so much, nobody's got enough money to, to put the money up for it to erm be at a price which would be affordable, unfortunately. +I think that's what it amounts to. +But th there's a s a strong campaign to have Cafe Direct taken by supermarkets and there's a lot of people putting a lot of energy into this and, and at present it's, it's, it's showing those results. +If you don't like supermarkets, maybe the results aren't so wealthy. +A a and I don't. +But leaving that aside i i it started off with the, the Co-op in Scotland, and also Safeways. +Now it's been extended to Waitrose, which are a large chain in the south of England. +Now Asda are taking it. +Safeways, I think, are taking it in other parts of the country. +I'm not sure it's got to the York area yet. +They were making a decision at the end of March. +But +And th there's a lot of, for Sainsburys the, the feeling being that if Sainsburys also agreed to take it, that lots of other, if there are any others, would follow suit cos everybody seems to look at Sainsburys and see what they're doing. +As far as I know, Sainsburys haven't yet taken that decision they've they've hung on the brink for more than six months now. +Nine months. +Oh well, all the more reason for the postcards . +Mhm. +because they, they've shown they are susceptible to, to encouragement. +With Waitrose down south and Sainsburys round the corner they have to. +Well,Wa Waitrose have taken it, like all the supermarkets, they've taken it on trial. +And, and if they think they aren't going to get anything out of it,th this is their morality, it's the morality of economics +Absolutely. +Absolutely. +and, and they'll ditch it. +Is there any point taking it to a local Sainsburys? +Don't they all have to follow national policy? +I think so. +Then would it be better to send it to some central +Well, I, I think the local manager would would pass it on if he or she got lots . +Well, they do sell, for instance they sell organic stuff, depending on the area and they +Mhm. +get, they get it from er +Yes, that's true. +Some things are sold that aren't called . +Charlie, is it roasted and packed in South America? +That's a bit of a hard question. +Is it +Roast? +No, but the, the instant coffee will be. +They're looking to have freeze-dried from . +Er Traidcraft's other coffee, which we haven't got any of here, it's ground coffee, is processed in Germany wh which isn't anything to write home about. +There's only about one percent of coffee i is roasted in its country of origin. +Mhm. +But I know you said there was a big erm tariff against it, but on the other hand they do get a lot of more benefits from it, like er well, the erm the price that's paid for a lot more, and, and it gives a lot more employment. +Mhm. +I it's part of the reason,i is that the processing just doesn't exist in, in countries. +That i i it exists in the western world. +Mm. +So the instant coffee, the only two fair-traded instant coffees, I haven't put them out tonight, I say, here. +The these are the only two, I think, processing +Nicaragua. +companies,wh wh which are not of the western world, that we've ever come across. +Th th this is +Tanzania. +Tanzania. +T Tanika, which is a good cause,and, and Encafe is, is produced in Nicaragua, although th er whether th whether it's still being produced, I'm not absolutely certain +Yes +because er some of this quite old. +It is still. +It is? +Nicaragua still produces its own coffee. +And the reason why there aren't any others is because I don't think there's, there's any other processing equipment. +I don't know what Oxfam does for Africa. +The there . +There is erm so there is processing equipment . +It tends to be to be for local production rather than for export. +Mhm. +Or it goes into the very cheap coffees here and erm and no er what do you call it, Kwik Save sell some coffee and chicory mixture, which is forty four pence for a jar . +And that must have some extremely dubious coffee in it . +W we forgot the notices at the beginning. +H have we got a any other business then? +Yes. +So if there's any other business then we could, it's going to have to be fairly quick. +Before that . +Next er a fortnight from now, Dave and talking about +Ah. +Yes. +Erm they are two Americans who've, who are involved with working in, in urban er aging and provision for aging, geriatricians. +And they both work, in their own part of the world, I've forgotten exactly where in the United States they, they work, erm a fair bit with support groups within America and they, they're coming to talk . +Er two weeks tonight. +Peter and Gayle . +. +Right okay, so th that's a fortnight. +I do we haven't got a programme out, because I haven't yet. +Erm, I tried to ring this lady. +Were you going to contact ? +Er y no, I'm not saying you did +Erm erm +But did you say you would? +I don't remember saying I would, but I will do if you like. +Erm yeah. +Erm +She wouldn't be there next no, not next week. +It's the week after. +. +And you said that on twenty first of June, Stanley , was +Yeah, erm I haven't had a reply from Stan yet, +he's probably been away over Easter. +Oh, I see. +I, I thought we'd, you know +And his particular thing would be erm things especially like bananas and the erm barriers to trade when the E C becomes united. +You know Single European Act or whatever. +He, he he's going to talk about Jamaica you say? +Well, about the Caribbean, er but with particular reference to what the new European unity law will, what effect it'll have on trade in that part of the world. +So that means until we've heard from ,one of them, we can't sort of ascertain finally the, the, the programme for the next few weeks. +But best to remind you that on the tenth of May, we've got Jerry coming. +I've written to him, I've not heard from him yet suggesting you know er say that we'd like to have a seminar afternoon. +But what I would like to know is, any of you know for certain that you want to come to either of the parts of those that day, in the evening or the afternoon? +I'd be glad if you'd let me know, because we, we want to know yet the numbers, and how many we're going to get. + +Perhaps I'll record this as well as play it. +Al, that's a good deal. +Look at this one. +erm to do both of those and then it works. +Does a light go on? +Yes. +Does it say record? +It's flicking away. +Oh yeah. +Now it's totally happy about doing it. +Okay. +I mean part of it is what I think and part of it is that I think that I like it because it works, that these things — I basically am unconvinced much of the modern tradition. +I like certain things ragged right for example, or fairly simple pages, but erm you can look back at the sixteenth century and find extremely simple pages, you know it's not a modern idea and the thing is that most of the eddies and currents of popular graphic design are little stylistic exclusions that never go anywhere. +They're just fun, and I like them. +I mean Neville Brody's work, I think maybe goes just a little deeper than just a, you know, flourish, but I am not sure where he's going with it. +I'm not sure it has enough erm logic behind it to lead him inevitably onward. +Yeah, I mean his work seems to be, his work seems to be a lettering artist's work, rather than a typographer's work. +I mean erm he's going off in almost that sort of, almost a calligraphic way of putting pages together +It's true, it's an illustration. +It's erm — and another thing, I was delighted when John Dreyfus in the Type ninety lecture used these terms of Charles Peignot called typo lecture and typo visuel, which I mis-spelt on my closing slide! +Was it typo vision, did somebody say it was? +I don't know what it was. +I thought it was visuel, but I don't know if is visual, visuel, vision or what it is, but my French is non-existent. +Whatever those words are, the definition is clear. +Neville is the typo visual type movement, which someone like April Grieman Type ninety is also in, and I admire this and I think that what Neville Brody did in the early issues of the Face you know just blew me away; it was the most exciting thing that anyone had done in years. +What people like April Grieman did in the United States ten years ago — fifteen years ago — was also very interesting, very exciting, but I think that both of those people attracted an enormous number of followers and Brody now essentially occupies rock star status, witness the groupies at Type ninety. +Yes, yes, and witness the ‘I don't want to give a lecture’ as well.. +Exactly, I mean, give us a break . +But in any case, you wonder what they're going to do next. +I know, I went through a period of a very much milder popularity in the United States in the seventies, nothing like what Neville has enjoyed or has been squashed by , which maybe is lucky for me, but the idea was that erm Rolling Stone, when I was doing it, became very heavily innovative and there was like countless magazines, you know weekly newspapers in different cities, sections of dailies, everything, that started looking like Rolling Stone there for a while. +And my Rolling Stone was completely based on the previous era at Rolling Stone. +I mean, I don't think anyone was aware when I arrived there, or when I departed, you know, actually, but there was something in the air at Rolling Stone, and it was really based on British typography and stolen from them . +I mean at one time it was the Times Literary Supplement or something with an Oxford box around it. +I do remember that. +When I was at college I did a pastiche of the student magazine, doing the fold, and it was called Shell, so we renamed it for that one issue Rolling Shell, and I ever so carefully did the lettering for both the title boxes, then I got really disappointed when it came to set the type for the front page article underneath the big photograph which we printed as duo tone, because I could do it on the I B M — I could actually do it in Times and I thought it was going to be really, you know, I'd have to really struggle and find +It was really simple? +some, some problem American typeface, and it was in fact it was great, it was straightforward. +You should have brought it, but I erm, a friend of mine — he's a publisher in San Jose, California, and erm I designed his latest newspaper over the telephone. +He was in a fix — he had bought two papers and merged them together, and I wasn't around, I was in New York, and I did the logo for him in a hurry, but I didn't have time to design a newspaper, nor was it the kind of thing for which he could pay a big design fee, so he described it on the phone and then he faxed me some pages of the existing papers, and I said well what you have to do is look at the old London Times and do that. +So he got Times Roman headlines in, very simple layout, and he did some caps bold, and then he said to me he had done all the headlines ragged and I said you just missed one thing — centre the heads. +He did that and it is very clean, but nowadays a very suburban tabloid, but it's fresh, it's pleasant as a result, and that when I quit Rolling Stone. +Rolling Stone was originally a reaction to the underground newspaper look and bit by bit it got art direction and, you know, good illustration, good photography,for this and all that, and then I got in there and pushed the type stuff. +We set everything in monotype, and all these display headline faces copied out of old type books and then I left and it was almost like people were saying ‘now what’, erm ‘what are you going to do after that?’ and I said ‘what do you mean?’. +This is particularly true, and actually is what I'm leading to in this story is that three years later, when Robert Priest hit Esquire two years later, the Rolling Stone look was supplanted by the Esquire look in terms of popular design and imagination, and I remember people said to me ‘well Roger what are you going to do, your style is out of date’ and my reaction to this was ‘well, hold on a second, it's not my style for one, and number two this is just traditional style, this was never intended to be a trend’, and fortunately it's sort of gone — right now it's back — so Rolling Stone even picked up the format that, you know, the Morris–Jenson typeface that we did for headline and stuff, and it's back in there. +Everyone says its totally hip and it wins awards again. +It's like what's going on. +That's moving too quickly for revivals . +But do you feel somebody wanted you to do that or has somebody just been watching the clock on the revivals and the clock's ticked round to a point in time now? +Well, clearly the revival thing has moved up so that we're about to have Eighties revivals very soon. +Well, I mean Brody may be able to survive by not actually only having a few months between doing it and being revived I think. +Well, he's also actually very smart, so I think that he will do something, but I don't think that that kind of deco constructivist inspired pastiche of styles, all reactionary, adds much, but of course they probably think that just doing, you know, just being content with typefaces available in nineteen twenty-five ads , but I don't know. +The other side of your comment was that you seemed to like these certain basic typefaces. +Mhm. +These ones. +Well these aren't really my choices. +These are Berlow's. +No, I know, but there's, I mean, do they represent more him than you? +I don't know. +Actually the presentation is very much what I like. +The A T F nineteen twenty-three book +Mhm, yes. +Or the nineteen thirties book is like one of the things that really inspired me because it showed me that you can do type that looks as though, I mean it can be composed as though in metal and not be boring — can not be, manufactured, you know hum drum, by varying the weights and by massing it, and also one of the things they do, that you see in those books that you didn't see in printing, was this size of type. +Mhm, yes. +You know, large text, because they couldn't afford it. +There was nobody buying. +You had to buy too many fonts, and it was too expensive, and people didn't want to by linotype matrices of that size. +It's interesting. +The best Centaur, I think, is the Bible Centaur that we've got, which okay it's Bruce Rogers — it's eighteen D on twenty-two, I think — it's Bruce Rogers, but it's also the monotype drawing office taking Centaur and doing things to it to make it work as a composition face at that size, beefing it up just enough so it actually holds, and that's what his Bible's in. +And the figures in his Bible aren't Centaur figures, they are Monotype Plantin figures resized to fit with it and work with it. +Well, this get's back to that, that typo-lecture, typo-visuel thing, the difference between reading type and illustration type, that if you're actually designing pages that people are going to read, then you have to start with the text. +And you know one of the big tricks is to force the editors of magazines to write the headlines before you write the pages — that's something they hate to do , but in Rolling Stone that was one of the rules that we had. +We wouldn't start the layout until the headlines were in. +Then they could write any headline they want, but if the text is going to change dummying the design become +Yes, yes. +Without the massing of type and without the large text range, which is like free in the phototype era, as long as you're happy and content with the original drawing, or a version of that size, then you can do so much. +It allows people to get into the story — to read, to read. +Do you know that page of yours from upper and lower cases on display in the Design Museum, that looks very well there — apart from the fact that you can read it from across the room. +Sadly, they didn't let me — you don't have to put this in here — but they didn't let me finish correcting the proofs, cos one of those things, four times is enough . +But I was rewriting that to try to get the lines to work and all of those things, and they mess it up a little bit, which annoyed me. +Another funny story, also off the record is that that lay in a drawer for two years because they thought it was controversial, they thought it was which I find hilarious . +I mean it's interesting what you say about not having the text to work with. +I mean that's our — we design books, and we design journals, and we set up and we take on new journals and can we ever extract any copy from the editorial board — we know it's going to be about Plant Sciences, but no idea what length of headline and how much technical gump is going to go into it, or we take something on +Hey, what's the important stuff, you know. +Are you going to be able to write a little precis, or is there some kind of list of data that should be up there. +Exactly, yes, yes. +Well, ‘there might be’ is the usual answer, you know. +‘Well probably’ +Yeah, we'll do that. +The worst one was when we were doing one on Women's Studies and I said look, let's have your title and let's have some kind of format. +We'll set larger, we'll set in eighteen point, I mean you can say something about — not an abstract, because they didn't want to be academic. +All that's great, fine, yes, lovely, and I said well can you write a few then, please, and we'll put some in. +That was the crunch point, the writing and the doing of it — that didn't happen, so it hasn't got them, so it looks a bit blander than it should have been. +But, go back here, it's interesting that you point out something I hadn't really thought about, which is why I tend to use typefaces that are sort of garden variety — printer's types, as opposed to the sweller Berthold revivals or whatever. +And it is true that, I mean, well, you know, I've spent a lot of time reviving typefaces that are not around, I mean, you know, propping them up, creating a waxed edition , sort of Madam Tussauds version of Lucien or something, but it's very interesting — there is not, in type development terms, there isn't a whole lot that has happened after the Second World War that really turns me on. +I don't know why that is. +None of the, you know, certainly none of the Univers Helvetica stuff is remotely interesting — the Grotesque are all better than that. +Did you see our grotesque that we did? +They're fun, huh? +They're really Stephenson Blake, with a twist. +Yes, yes. +We're actually thinking of doing a real Stephenson Blake. +These were done for a particular customer that wanted them buffed. +So we may want to do an, you know, an accurate revival. +We talked to them also about maybe doing an accurate size for size Caslon. +A real Caslon. +Faith full to the original. +And +Yes, yes. +Weird. +Even though its +That would shock a lot of people who would say this isn't , because they know five hundred and forty, or they know +Well, that's the problem with doing revivals. +You get into this thing where you're suddenly influenced by Helvetica, or Univers, even though you don't think you are when you're redrawing . +When Adobe did Caslon I know that they had certain things in their minds they couldn't get out of and thus it's not real Caslon. +It's an interesting typeface thought. +The weighting just a bit too erm +Anaemic +Well, it's just not quite thin enough. +It's a bit too even. +Well, it's almost like Imprint or something. +Yes, yes, yes. +In the smaller sizes it's fine. +That's almost what Caslon looks like. +But without the letterpress push it looks sad. +I mean what it needs it that random pixel degradation across the page to give you back the letterpress look. +One set of typefaces that I like there are on the slightly goofy side are the Goudys erm and it took me a long time of, your know, hearing purists try to explain to me why before I understood the distinction. +I mean he's really on the Ed Beugmot side of the fence and his typefaces are on the . +It's too brilliant, you can't read it, but as advertising it's fine because it attracts your attention and you say ‘what is this?’. +It's type and it's shimmering in appearance, in a slightly violent way, but I still like those things. +I mean I want to do Village back up. +Yes, that would be nice. +There is a Deepdene now somebody told me. +There's a Berthold Deepdene now, isn't there as well, which looks a bit +Oh that's what I was thinking about. +Is it. +Yeah. +That's a little bit buffed. +It looks a bit, yes, sort of polished to perfection. +That's the way they do everything. +I'm, I don't like that +This is the Berthold specimen book and it worries me, because everything looks as if it's supposed to sit in a line of eighteen point display, you know, sort of specimen setting, saying this is +But it's sad you that can't do you know what I mean, they all start lumping together. +So what I think, that's another thing about this, I have erm, there's something about the plainness of design that I like if it's erm the things that have been done that are erm like Adobe typefaces or Bertol typefaces, that are really beautifully, you know, sandpapered and finished to me are boring and when you get into, if you take a look at the schedule that A T F produce typefaces in it's not unlike it, I mean the modern equivalent is the Font Bureau do 'em and try to sell 'em. +As a result there's some lumpy things in it and actually erm and the old foundries are the same way in the commercial . +And the old foundries cut a face and a size for a specific use. +Yes, that's also true, if they had an order. +erm they never ran their sequence of sizes by starting with a five point through to seventy-two. +The did Times Roman in what five and a half, seven and a half and nine and that was it. +I don't think they even thought they would need to do any other sizes and they didn't proportion them so that you could interpolate. +I hope it's still running. +It seems to be. +Yeah it's still running. +I wonder if it's really +Why don't you try the earphones? +No, I've got them, but I left them back there. +Yeah, looks like it is. +I'm convinced it's playing. +Why don't you stop it and start again. +Hello, the mike's on and its whirring. +It's running . +We'll turn it over in a bit and then we'll have a problem. +So, also there's something to be said for, I mean, a basic technical thing about the type is that you want to be able to tell the letter apart. +Yes, yes. +You know, the simple notion has eluded the Neue-Helvetica crowd at Stempel Linotype. +The original Helvetica was actually easier to read, I believe, than the Neue-Helvetica. +Yes, yes. +And this wasn't that easy to read . +And there are places which have been, I mean, Neue-Caledonia is not a patch on Caledonia, because, you can't, it's so difficult to track it down. +You do blow-ups and you put the two characters side by side and you can't see the difference. +You set a blurb or something in proper Caledonia and then in Neue-Caledonia and it hits you that the Neue-Caledonia has gone all sort of thin and sharp and it's the perfection of that shape there and the old one sort of boings about a bit and looks happy on the page. +It's a very good point. +The only good things you can say about some of these new series, like Matthew Carter's Cochin in fact that he did for Linotype are these other weights. +On the whole I would prefer to have that Lanston Monotype's Cochin than Matthews, but when you get up to, I mean, you have to do that cochin black that's fantastic in display sizes. +Yes, yes. +Huge display size. +Wonderful. +And that's one of the things that you came out right at the time, I needed something really swanky for a caption for Rolling Stone. +I tried Cloister Italic and the Swash, Goudy italic and it was terrible. +person and then that was too swell. +Then I tried it Cloister and it was too boring, and then I saw that they had Lanston Cochin at Mackenzie and Harris in San Francisco, so we used that and when we moved to phototype I didn't really go with the whole Jenson thing at all. +When we went to phototype Matthews came out right at the right moment, to the week!. +Yes, yes. +It was there. +We started using it and interestingly enough that typeface is really popular now, you see it in the United States everywhere, it's all over the place. +So that's one of the survivals for that. +Yeah but I, part of this comes from my first real, my only training at all and my first real experience in printing was working for this guy called Robert Dothard. +Dothard was a printer in Vermont, originally from Philadelphia. +He had been doing Limited Edition Club books from the beginning. +mhm, mhm. +He took over his own printing company called E L Hildreth in the forties and in the fifties sometime sold that out and set up a design shop to produce books and magazines, near Brattleboro, Vermont, and the prep school that I went to had retained him for many years as their printing adviser and, you know, he did the catalogues. +I had a project as a student. +They had a catalogue that had to be printed. +There was an art exhibition and because the school was spending money to print it he had to get involved. +It was like they didn't want anything that looked un-Derefield. +He brought me this type book. +It was all Monotype. +mhm, mhm. +He asked me which typeface I would like to set it in. +He was like just being an adviser, he wasn't like trying to design it, and I looked at it all for a long time and I said Bembo, which I had never heard of. +That was the right answer. +. +So then at the end of that year he offered me a summer job, a kind of an apprentice job and that was it. +And it worked for him and we set type by hand and pulled proofs. +Everything was metal type and most things were printed off, but at least I got to learn, you know, what it is to lock up a page. +Yes, yes. +And why. +And what it takes to fits word together, to fit letters together. +And then why the regiment of this recti linear world works, why it feels good, you know, there's a structural, architectural thing about when it's in three dimensions. +It occurred to me later that there's something almost, that there's a cultural imprint, not to make a pun, of this letterpress image of a page in the structural necessities of locking a page and having even gutters and relatively rectilinear forms that creates a feeling of reliability, security and permanence. +mhm. +And if you do pages that could be done in metal, they are more convincing than pages that cannot be done in metal. +That's what I meant about the meta-metal, if you took it back to metal you couldn't make up a page like your upper and lower case with a big R, unless you spent three years chiselling and fitting the thing, but somehow it looks as if it ought to have been possible to have done it in metal because that's where it took its springboard from. +So the thing is that the erm, at Rolling Stone we actually called the paste-up people. +We had to explain to them what a three-dimensional, you know, lock-up page was and why, you know, gutters were a certain width and if you had column rules and gutters, you know, why they were centered and why you couldn't, if you had a wide margin below three columns of text why you didn't move the gutter beyond where the text wasn't so white, or why you didn't move it down and have it join a rule here because it would have been a real pain in the arse to have to do that in metal, so you just sit and do it. +And somehow it looks right when you don't do it. +Yeah. +Better. +And then I got into this whole thing about what I call the invisible descender theory, which is a joke in my studio but it's been going on for, you know, nearly twenty years so it's become a law. +Tell me about the law, then. +Well the theory is that you don't, in metal type if you have a line of caps you can't just jamb another line right under the baseline because there has to be room for the ascenders, descenders. +That in fact you exaggerate that space a little bit, you add a little bit more space to help out that line and that's why if you have a headline you put a little extra space . +It's sort of descender protection. +And you can mass type, erm mass headlines, and we do negative type leading and all the rest, but you have to add up that extra descender space and put it at the bottom of the headline. +So there has to be — and we always exaggerate that space a bit. +Yes, yes. +It's like — take a look at this bag!. +Yes. +The space under the the ‘ninety’ when David Plain remade that for the stickers that went out he took it out, he took half of it out, and that really infuriated me. +It's not really enough the way it is, it wouldn't fit on the bag if I made it any more!. +Instead of letting the G there overprint the red rule, which +Up there too, at the top, there's space. +And that's more space than a lot of people would like. +A lot of designers would say no that should be floated, it should be visual centre, which is maybe just above centre. +I'd say visual centre plus. +So that's just a little design style, very simple, to get people to understand. +Once they've got it, they can do my layout and I don't have to be there . +That's what I was going to ask you on those things. +When do you do a newspaper — I've just written down here — you provide a dress and provide a grammar. +And erm and I think these are the two things we are talking about, the typo visual is the dress and the typo, what is it, logic, typo lecture is the grammar. +The options that they've got for actually saying things, what they can say. +At least that's why it's so important to know the sorts of things they are going to say before you can specify for that. +But it seems that, I mean, redressing a paper that you know what it says is one thing erm so something like Hillman's Guardian, he knows what words they are going to use in those headlines and he provides them with a new look for saying those words in, but in many ways his redesign of that paper was erm it was an undynamic one in the sense that he was still providing them with elements which they could bolt together to make a page in a classic broadsheet newspaper way. +There was gradings of headings and gradings of weights, but it seems to me that you're more interested in sort of through reading and doing, I mean, particularly on the tabloid size newspapers, doing different things. +Did you get an El Sol. +I should have brought some of these things. +No, I've seen one, but I haven't actually +I'll mail you one. +That'll be great. +From the hotel. +It'll get there. +Yes, yes. +It works beautiful over here. +That mailing thing in the United States. +You look at a mail box in the United States and it looks like it's been abandoned, just barely bolted to the ground any more. +I thought, actually, what you were going to ask is how you then get people to follow that style. +That is the follow up, yes. +Because that's, that's really the trick, and if you have, if you have a style that is fairly simple, then it's easier to explain. +I mean I don't think that many people can do convincing Neville Brody pages, presumably he has three of them — the three- or ten, or however many he has, to be able to turn them out with him being around, but as soon as he walks away it's not as good. +And the real test if you're designing what we call formats in the United States — sometimes in Europe format means just shape and size — but the underlying design of a newspaper or magazine. +The trick is if you go away it doesn't look like you have, and erm the same thing happens in a design studio, or if you're the art director of a publication or of a book publisher, that everybody works together so it looks like it's not all the same person doing everything. +I mean it's a team of people who get along and it's very, very hard to do. +A lot of his personality, you know you have to like jolly people into liking and sublimating what their own inclination would be to some kind of group style. +It's the same job as an editor of a publication has to get writers to go along without it all sounding like he wrote it or she wrote it, and the, but a good editor can figure out how to do that and a good writer likes it because it means erm they'll go together or work better and readers will like it, understand it. +So, I would say that the design, the actual literal design, the graphics part of the projects I work on, is twenty percent of the work and the rest is all trying to explain and get it understood. +We've started it in our studio, bringing their people into the city or setting up a kind of branch over there where people can work together and so you don't get the political problems of ownerships, of people saying well that's your idea, you know, it's the old thing of as soon as the client thinks that it's his idea then he wants it , and it's very hard. +It's a difficult thing to do. +Within the Rolling Stone thing, I mean, part of it has you as the chief designer and you have to accept the notion that two heads are better than one, which means designers cannot +Yes, yes. +The plates are over scale! +In Rolling Stone we used to, you know I've never been one of the designers who erm sketches little thumbnails and makes people, makes assistants follow them through. +Basically what I like to do is have a conversation about the project and then get the designer to come up with an answer. +A good deal of the time he or she can get it the first time. +You know, if you work together a little bit. +Sometimes if it's completely wrong you start over, or you have to get in and actually wade into the paper and do some design work on it, but the other thing is allowing a certain sense of experimentation. +Then you say okay, let's try this. +Being able to print the experiments, or at least get them out there somehow, is really important because they get the thrill of the designer and your colleague really gets the thrill of working out without a rope, without a net. +And then that's where the Mac comes in so importantly, because it gives you that straightaway. +Right. +And it think that — I mean I like to have, if you go back and look at a Rolling Stone when I was doing it, there are pages in there, I would say one third of all the pages in there, you would not even want to print today. +I mean, within the context of the publication the quality range is so wide that it's shocking. +Everything else — the floor has been raised, so all publications at the consumer level are slick and there is no bad, just bad layout. +There may be badly thought out things, but there is not just clumsy stuff, but there is also isn't any wild card. +The Brody image really was much wilder in the beginning, I mean it had +Oh that's why it had so much impact, because it really was different on that. +By allowing the experiments you get to the next stage. +In a group effort, like a publication or a magazine, you know, you don't have to hold people back, they'll go all the way. +There's this guy I'm hoping to see in Paris this week is Vincent Winter who is the designer of Rolling Stone and we worked the best of everybody here off of each other. +He really liked my style, but he wanted to push, he wanted to go beyond that. +He didn't think it was enough. +He thought is was too flat, too dated for nineteen seventy, or whatever year it was . +And so he's the one who started doing this — I don't know if you remember Rolling Stone during that period he started getting slight, not really new wave, but we used some of the constructivist thing of breaking pages somewhat and pushing things on angles or erm My favourite was his Bob Dylan spread which actually I did, but it was based on what he was trying to get me to do, where everything read left to right and everything was, you know, point sizes lined up and everything was on a column grid, but it was, when you looked at it you had to, you know, like focus on it. +It was more of a slap in the face and then you started to look at it, rather than, you know, a traditional page. +And it was really fun that way. +I think that's what Priest, I mean I don't know, Priest probably has a whole history of how he got is Esquire style, but Vincent went over there and had something to do with it, and I really think that taking the old style stuff and giving it a new spin helped, and the difference between what we're doing and what the California crowd was doing — and this was also the time of punk rock — was that we were using traditional typefaces and they were +Yes, yes. +Univers or something. +I mean the constructivist would never Univers +They'd have used Venus. +They'd have used anything. +Or actually no they wouldn't, they were bold Egyptians, they'd have used all manner of things that they could +Some damn printing shop or some job shop that hadn't bought a new type since nineteen fifty or eighteen ninety. +Yes, I think, I mean I think that's partly why the English reaction was against you on all manner of grounds. +But no doubt just sheer distaste of the actual typefaces used, which were the winkle-bag was the description they used to be given. +I'm going to see if this thing is still erm Yep, we've still got some on that side, so that's okay. +Anyway, so that gets back to the thing over policy. +If you're really rocking and rolling in the art department and you're allowing some of the experiments to see their way into print, even if they're not so, they don't have that slick veneer that people seem to want in the marketing department, progress results and the rawness helps and the thing that makes Jack Stoffagers pages so wonderful is that they are unfiltered, you have the feeling that it's the printer talking to you, determining something that he's read, you know, he wants you to read. +And that communication is the more direct for that. +It hasn't been turned into a +T V commercial. +And it goes back to what we were saying about why some of these founders types which are somewhat slapdash are more readable and more interesting and get your attention. +Yes, every now and then the temptation to do something sort of very cool and very sort of ten point Univers and you do it for a bit, and you've done it and then you use some proper faces instead. +The English advertising agencies started getting into a very interesting style about three years ago and then they kind of blew it away, they forgot which started letter-spacing upper and lower case. +That was when they started sliding downhill again. +Yes, the whole, I mean, that seems to have stopped I hope, but it was a real problem area that, I mean +When Perpetua came back it was really bad news. +Yah, letter space, lower case and bold italic. +I don't know, I felt that was, I mean, erm it's so easy to be snobbish, but if the problems of experimentation that comes out of accident because you want to achieve an accident and you want to achieve the fall of things on the page, and the accident that occurs because, as you say, nobody's ever told you that you're not supposed to do that, so the accident isn't a case of reacting against a rule to test it, to see whether it would stand up to being broken, the one that's just happened I think, I +There aren't very many, I mean, it gets back to the other thing which is underlining my thinking about this stuff because erm you're dealing with cultural form. +Some of the communication work is done for you. +The problem with The Guardian is that it doesn't look like a newspaper any more. +mhm, mhm. +And thus the reader has to go more than the usual way he goes to understand what he's looking at. +It may be a reader of The Guardian today after two years of seeing it now gets it. +Yes, yes. +But it's not good for new readers. +I'm, I think, I think I've got a different criticism which is that much of it is still too much like a newspaper erm that it's, as I say, that the modular structure of the news pages is too relentlessly like, almost like, the Times of eighteen twelve, I mean too relentlessly little blocks that sort of sit there and although there's Helvetica bold in the headlines, it's, somehow the relationship and flow of stories in many ways doesn't seem to have changed, it's the presentation +Well, I think, erm +I also don't like to text face. +I mean I love Nimrod +It looks like there is some kind of compromise going on between really nineteen sixties modern and a traditional newspaper. +I mean it didn't really break +The compromise, I think, was really on the format because he really wanted to go tabloid erm and +Did you see the Minneapolis Tribune like the early sixties? +Mhm, yes. +I mean that was really a breakthrough. +Yes, yes. +Maybe not a good one, but it was +That's what I meant about +He went all the way through. +That was the equivalent of Matthew's point about the design being locked to the technology. +It was easy to cast a slug that was of the body size, therefore your paragraphs were separated by a slug that was the body size, you didn't put a three point which is what you'd have probably wanted. +If you'd wanted to separate off your paras, you'd put in a full size slug because it was easy to make up and the whole thing was absolutely modular erm but perhaps it would have looked better if it had been A four, or you know, Swiss in some way. +Yeah, it would have. +I mean it was taking that whole Swiss thing and saying that okay these are the new rules, whereas The Guardian accepts some of the old rules. +Yes, yes. +I mean I think +I think there's something really dated about it too. +It's funny. +This +It's very funnily printerly about it in its odd way. +I mean the textface, which is Nimrod, is a drawing office typeface and a printer's typeface, and it's there because, I don't know, it +If somebody said they wanted Ionic number five slightly different +Why is it still there I kept asking? +And eventually they said well the stereotype is basically sort of like the equivalent in litho plate making really said that this was, no of course it is metal, sorry it's not metal, it is letterpress The Guardian and it is, they make these Nyclopone plates or something and they really wanted to keep it for that reason. +It's great. +I think that's still doing. +Yes, yes. +Let's go back to +Do you have a problem erm you've dropped out of the Sunday Correspondent have you? +No, I'm going there on Friday . +Are you doing the tabloiding? +I don't think so. +It's possible. +I was going to do the tabloiding then they fired Peter Cole . +And he was the connection with you. +But they've done a tabloid internally and they've asked me to come to take a look at it. +I couldn't understand the type choices on that newspaper. +It started off all in Melior, with the text — the text I think was in Melior or Melior tells me that the text was originally in Melior with ordinary Melior headings, then when it appeared it was Nimrod with Melior bold. +Was it Nimrod or something else? +Oh, it's the other one, is it Clarion? +Clarion. +That's the one with the curly R, as opposed to the Nimrod which is straight. +Yes, not much different, same idea. +Ionic number five sort of redone. +Then you erm had them put in Modern number seven. +That wasn't me. +That wasn't you? +That was Fiona, Fiona Hill, who was there at the . +She couldn't stand the Melior and they said well give us something. +She said it isn't English and they said okay let's have something English, and so she used this Modern number seven. +It's thin or it's boring, take your choice. +But it's exactly what those aint. +It wasn't customised. +It would have been great to have done. +I mean we've got a font called Dryden, which is Scotch-Roman as Monotype call it and it would do it. +That done to Scotch would have been great. +When a first digitise something like +You show them that it doesn't work. +And then we're going to do a new Dow text and a new Scotch-Roman for their headlines and I've always wanted to do that. +I love Scotch. +I like Monticello do you know that. +Yes, yes. +Have you ever seen that used in display. +It's amazing. +Yes, yes. +That's what +I even had to hand letter it to get it to get it to look like itself. +There's something really interesting in doing that Bell-Scotch look, but erm well I also like to just plain Miller and Richard old style. +They could have done worse at the Correspondent, but they couldn't get it. +And I, yah, it doesn't work very well as a headline face. +I think that will go. +All I did was to tell them to get rid of the Helvetica but . +I said and they said . +Yeah. +I think at the moment it, The Correspondent, looks like a rather bad advertisement for monotype typefaces. +And I always feel it's a reverse situation, you know, about Stanley Morrison saying he would prefer to pay Monotype not to put an ad in, erm to pay The Times not to put an ad for Monotype. +It's almost as if Rene Kerfante were to say that he ought to tell The Correspondent not to use his typefaces, but they need to get something, I don't know, more coherent though. +What they need is life. +The whole thing is just — it looks like a motion picture art director's. +Someone said well we'll just have a generic British paper because, you know, we're going to do a story about a newspaper office and we need something like a newspaper but isn't actually one. +Oh, desert time, are you having any desert? +Mmm. +Where am I looking? +Right at the bottom here. +Do you want to split it? +I think that's a good idea, actually, two plates and two spoons and in we go. +So, the, erm yah, I'd like to do, I mean, the notion of having a tabloid here that's, you know, like a hip tabloid, like mid . +In Britain I don't think the time is right for it. +No. +I'm not sure that The Correspondent came first, no I'm not sure that anybody came first. +I think if you're +Yes, yes. +and colour and had a real youth kick to it. +Yes. +That was sort of like forties and under. +Yes, yes. +Baby boom and below. +And you'd covered the acid house and you'd covered AIDS and you'd covered all the social issues, 'cos that's was missing from the British press — it's all like conventional politics as usual, or you get the +Or it's, or it's +Just sex and scandal. +Yes on top. +I think that you could do something in between here, but I don't know the country well enough to say exactly that mix would be. +It's funny 'cos, I mean, the T V news actually provides that function in this country, I think, of the middle ground, whereas it seems to me on a very limited sort of reading that the T V news erm provides a different sort of service in the States. +It seems to provide, I don't know, the erm almost the opposite way round, it provides you with really heavy stuff or with the sort of daytime chat shows, just the sort of tabloid equivalent. +And the newspapers are a operation. +I'm not sure you could take a tabloid in this direction I'm about to propose that would also appeal to some popular customers, but it's like, last night everyone was reminiscing about Type ninety and the high points and one of the things that came out in conversation was that there was enormous amount of sex going on which I suppose there is at all conferences, you know, but this one seemed to be, you know, the randiest conference in recent memory. +And why is that? +I mean everyone was really charged up, there were a lot of — nobody got some sleep. +Mhm. +Completely zonkered. +The speakers, you know, certain unnamed speakers were like on the prowl and the mild mannered Georgiana Greenwood, the calligrapher, was having orgies in her rooms at Christ Church every night. +At three o'clock in the morning you could look up and their windows were blazing with light. +And, you know, lots of thumping in the hallways and stuff. +It's like, you know, a lot of people who were at the conference were completely unaware of all this because they were working so hard. +. But, okay, so everyone is interested in that, you know, and particularly if it's sex in high places. +They love it, it's perfect, so then you get to, you know, pop culture in general and the British press does a better job of covering rock and roll and, you know, social life than the American press does. +I mean all the good papers have several pages every Sunday in the Times and the Telegraph. +The Independent do some incredible in the dailies. +The following stuff, you know, like the pirate radio station goes legit, they do a page on. +In America we'd get like a column, and erm, but I think you could even do more, that the real life, the people, you know, is in the high street and the shopping malls and, you know, there's a lot of kind of horoscope and gossip and stuff that could go into a paper that could be fun. +And things like Time Out and so on, and City Limits, tried on the listings in the culture front seem to be seduced by, on the one hand, the need to simply provide information in terms of the listings, or then they felt some kind of twinge of conscience and had to be counter-balanced by radical politics on the other side, which produced a completely split, a paper that you could tear in half and read it as two sort of separate things, and erm and they always erm and something like that always felt +That's definitely a fuel, I mean that's conversation for things missing in and those listings. +Mhm. +We don't have a Time Out in New York because +It's all in there in the Times. +But, anyway, I think there is room for that and I think basically what I would propose is forget the tabloids and do an A four newspaper. +It's big enough to do anything on? +Yeah, do a daily magazine. +Mhm. +All colour and make it really easy for people to read , like A B C, abz as they say in Madrid. +sorry that was +It's hideous, except for the logo which they've almost destroyed. +There's a little tiny so you can imagine what it might have looked like in the old paper. +They used to have a every day, eight pages round the outside. +It had in the front all news pictures, in the back all gossip and pictures. +And the inside had no pictures at all, still doesn't, drawings like, you now, Le Monde, or . +Anyways it kept sort of almost conventional and now it's essentially A four. +Crickey. +And erm it's wonderful. +You don't have to like, make any room for it at all, and you can start doing paint layup and but you can do magazine pages. +Yes, yes. +text,picture, and it's still smaller than the pictures that run every day in these oversize English papers. +It's interesting, the English sort of +Staple of. +That's important. +I mean erm the, I mean, erm the closest I ever get to sort of news design is redesigning the Oxford University Press Gazette, and one of the first things when they said it's got to go A four was well in that case you've got to staple it, because you can't have thirty-two, sixty-four pages A four sort of doing that. +out. +Float out. +It's, it's erm enough of a shock changing it to A four without stapling it, you know. +People like to pull out the job supplement in the middle and, you know, they've got to be able to do that easily 'cos they throw the rest away, you know, and read the job supplement and they well. +Why don't they just print the job supplement ? +It's going to be . +You're wasting your money. +That was +Did you see this thing that they printed at Type ninety in letraset. +Oooh that gets d.t.p. +a bad name. +Letraset? +I know we got a mention in it for the museum and that was, oh did you get your keepsake? +Did somebody collect it for you? +No. +I don't think so. +'Cos there was an envelope there for you with your name on and it had been ransacked. +Ah. +Too bad. +Gone. +If you want it I'll send it to you. +I'd like to have it. +erm I erm +I did get — did you take a good look at the, yes, wasn't that beautifully done? +Yes, yes, yes. +I thought it was lovely. +It was just so nice. +What impressed me was the design was great, but the objects, the books as things. +They really did it well. +Yes, yes. +And the one thing that's so difficult +Have you ever been to his home? +No, no, no. +I was just there for Type ninety, and he has a wall of books in his living room that — the shells are some kind of Danish wall system from nineteen fifty-five and it seemed, you know, that the shelves were slightly saggy, a few nicks and scrapes, so it's not new looking at all. +Great fifties design. +And books were stacked, you just can't believe it. +I don't know where he puts the bad ones . +Everybody has some books that they want to hang on to that . +Yes, yes. +Every single book is beautiful. +Amazing things. +And then he has a study that has a similar wall of reference set of shelves and then I guess that maybe his bedroom has of this, but it's erm and such a nice guy, a pleasant kind of man. +His life is, somehow he's managed to bring it all around so that everything is perfect. +Did you meet his daughters? +Two daughters were there. +No, no, I didn't. +Angela erm. +Let's see, take this, go easy on the strawberry. +A bit of colour coding on that. +No, I mean, I wrote down here what tone of voice — English obsession with newspaper class, which is what I was talking about format which you covered, and I said that I felt that in the States that seems to an outsider only the New York Times, but even that sort of, as you say, covers a whole range of non-quality, from a British point of view non-quality, press. +We have an anti-tabloid bias too. +It's very hard to get away with doing a tabloid in the U S. +It's not, I mean, we don't have the class potential you guys have. +Mhm. +I know. +You see this is the thing that worries me because, you know, when I stand up and say I like what John Dreyfus did and I think his looks very good and I maintain the traditions of the Oxford University Press, I can suddenly feel that I'm being typecast as being in the English tradition of typography as a revered art and the Morrisonian thing and the whole thing separate from, you know, a culture within a culture and a separate thing. +And, I don't know, it seems that actually you've got a very good sense of using all those traditions to inform things that happen, things that you do and erm you're not locked in being regarded as in that sort of tradition and the pressures that result from that. +Yeah, well, I don't like that either. +There was Morrison phrase that was quoted in the play — did you go to the play? +Prissy private press. +Yes, yes. +Or private pressiness, something like that. +Yes, that was interesting, I mean several of the people who came to see the +I mean that Updike, of all people, was the worst . +Mhm, mhm. +There is that kind of, sort of long-necked attenuated of that style it's very boring. +Updike was really a two-dimensional typographer. +He had, he knew his stuff obviously, but he — I mean the fact, the way looked on Goudy and that whole thing, he just couldn't take himself beyond that certain . +Of course Morrison is not unlike him, but, I don't know, it's interesting, I mean Bruce Rogers I think is my hero in terms of designers, but at the same time, I mean, the nineteenth century stuff, I like even this ornamented stuff that they're doing. +That's a great turn up. +I mean there is grotesque — Bruce Rogers was doing grotesque when I was only two feet tall Did he ever use a grotesque any time in his life? +Sorry, did +Did Rogers even use a sans serif? +I doubt it. +Dwiggins did. +We're doing some new Metros. +Design, yes a Metro, I've always wanted to like Metro, but never quite managed to. +I was put off it from an early age because it used to be used in the by-lines in the Daily Telegraph and it sort of and it looked a bit wrong. +It always looks as if I've gone along with a sort of scalpel at the bottom of the letters as well, a sort of shaved off +But also, I did, I did something that +There's something very sort of loose. +Yes, yes. +never still together and then fit together . +The shapes are correct. +Yes, they sort of +Bong off together like beads that have gotten loose of the string so, but Parkinson — did you meet him?— he was, Parkinson was the guy who did the Rolling Stone typeface and he was here. +He has a new . +Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes, I did, sorry. +He had the first near violent encounter at Type ninety — did you hear about this, the fist fight with Benguiat. +No, no. +The first day Benguiat accused him — Parkinson printed up this sheet as a handout with which the finished examples had the logos that he was exploring in the lectures and one of them was the New York Times magazine, and of course Benguiat had done the original job for the New York Times and the magazine, the other magazine, so he thought that what Parkinson was showing was an example of a redesign, relettering of an existing logo, and perhaps he shouldn't of said that, you know. +, but Benguiat took it as like a threat to and went after him in the lobby of hall and they had to be prised apart. +Parkinson didn't enjoy it, but the story is not over. +I got to , Benguiat's girlfriend and told her the whole story and told her to explain to Benguiat and calm him down and he had like threatened to come to Parkinson's speech and disrupt it and scream liar and things like that at him. +She stayed on at the hotel and distracted him and then the next day other people got to him and explained that Parkinson was really a nice guy and that it was like painting and . +The real story is that the logo was originally designed, was drawn, but Lou Silverstein. +He took a piece of tracing paper over the old one though and Germanicised it and took it away from what we call Old English. +Yes, yes, yes. +And made it more black letter. +Mhm, mhm. +And it up and Benguiat did the final. +And then another part of the story is he made a whole alphabet without telling the Times and they . +Anyone can set his newspaper in the New York Times lettering style without paying the Times a nickle . +In fact at times the Moonie, the Reverend Moon newspaper, did so . +Their lawyers are not, but they had a promotion out. +And the Times stepped on them? +The New York Tribune set exactly like the Times. +Anyway, Benguiat made up to him and gave him a big kiss and then the next day things got bad again because Parkinson was going to in room number two above this floor to sort out his slides and Benguiat had been in there and evidently he had just decided to tuck his shirt in and loosen his trousers and while he was tucking his shirt in Parkinson came in and says aha, caught you with your pants down, and Benguiat storms out of the room . +I mean none of these people are like, you know, like wallflowers. +People would imagine that a type conference would be an extremely dull affair, but in fact it was like , barely able to control himself at any one time. +Did you hear about the Apple party? +Yah I've heard various references to this . +I didn't make it over there because I was at another party, but after the dinner, the night before last, they all went over to the Apple Playroom and started drinking, ordering from room service and making more . +They all got totally zonkers and were like running from machine to machine making and Benguiat the, not Benguiat,Brillo , was yelling it should be like this all the time . +Everybody like — so Brody was over there making erm what was he trying to do — I can't remember, some character , three hours, he wasn't . +I went over and looked at some of the characters. +Did you go in that room? +Yes, yes. +Some of the characters that people produce from this and they did them like Parkinson did, a Rolling Stone ball J, but outlined in drop shadow. +In fact we made rubber stamps for people in the office — the departments to go in , the bureau, and the stamp was the J because they were all photostated to that made this stamp just loved it. +It was already long anyway, so that's where he got that I think, but there were others, you know, beautiful. +Cleo Huggins made a tree that had another little notch on top, so it had this kind of Arabic feel. +With a . +Very beautiful. +Everybody +Are they going to appear? +They say they are going to ship them with every System seven, you get this . +So I went in there and I thought oh God, I mean I could, if you gave me, if I did a nice sketch and worked on it, if I spent a day a might +Yes, yes, yes, yes. +But against these guys. +Yes. +So hopeless. +So what I did was I used Illustrator and did a, used a free hand tool and drew a really sloppy dollar sign which looked kind of dangly dinosaurish, only with the inside with a nice curve, so they could see that I wasn't a complete +You tried at that point. +Then I put a little like a slobber drip mark, with a little window +A petro dollar. +Yah, like an ailing petro dollar . +They didn't, the Apple didn't like it , they didn't want to put it in the font. +Yah, it was a fun conference, quite nuts, glad it's over . +Let's see what's going on here. +I think we've covered all this. +Closed systems, black boxes, text formats, oh what's this, oh yes, this was talking about the people you put in. +Oh yes, I thought, I had thoughts about the tabloid format and requiring more creative day to day input if you're running stories across page and setting up sequences. +Yah. +More of an art department. +And it's more of an art department. +Then it should be a magazine. +I think that erm what I'd like to do is an A four daily that's all colour, all digital, so that you get picture syndrome moments before you go to press you can get them to print. +The San Francisco Examiner, which is a paper I did, I started using digital photography for local news coverage. +They had Nelson Mandela giving a rally at two in the afternoon on the steps of City Hall or wherever it was, and at three they had a colour photograph of him out on the streets. +The edition was out on the +Yah, in colour. +Now that's, that's a very interesting for a homeward bound commuter, you know, getting into the tube and you grab one of these papers and you read it and in fifteen minutes you get to Oakland fifty minutes, why turn on the news? +You have it. +It's particularly easy in California where we have a great time advantage. +Three hours +Yes, yes, 'cos you're catching all +Nine hours in Europe. +So the whole day is done by the time you get started, so you can close out the foreign and even the U S domestic edition, domestic news, before you +And leave your city news on the front and put that in as the +That's only live stuff, really live, the night crew can do the rest, just about. +So then you're up to date, but three in the afternoon you've got the C B S evening news, 'cos they're also three hours earlier. +Most of their stuff is pretty dated. +And it's in print form. +What, what time erm although I've been to San Franciso, I've never worked out what time the evening news is there. +Is it delayed? +Everything's changed. +Oh, you mean how does the national news work? +How does the national T V news work. +They have erm in breaking new situations, if there is something big going on, you know, or during the democratic convention or whatever it is, or this Iraq thing, the anchors stay around the studio and then maybe do a replay, so to speak. +It's actually a whole new edition. +For each time zone, or for +They do it a half hour later or an hour later and if that holds, erm I think they usually, you know, it's always at least an hour +So if it holds they'll replay it and if it breaks +But if it doesn't hold, at the very end what they'll do is break in on it ‘and now the special report from Dan Rather in Baghdad, and then you see Dan Rather and when he's done there's a commercial and then it goes back to whatever they were doing on tape. +Yes, yes. +But it's confusing now because they put the news on and you can watch the evening news on the first feed at five o'clock in the afternoon now in San Francisco. +Oh, 'cos they're taking it from the East Coast feed. +Yah, they're taking it off the satellite and it used to be there was always the seven o'clock news, except in central side when it was always the six o'clock news, but now it's on at like any old time, five thirty, six thirty, seven. +I get totally confused because I end up watching C N N anyway, so it's +C N N is good. +C N N are particularly good at the Iraq thing, they're the only ones to watch. +They were there. +But I think you could do, see the whole great thing about what's happening in this electronic change in print is that broadcasting's advantage has been almost completely wiped out. +They are crippled by the number of people it takes to get something on the air, whereas in print, I mean it's still a lot of people if you're doing a daily paper, but one reporter can write a story and get it on the air, or get it in print. +So the relative cheapness of having correspondence in string with just a fax machine dotted around the place instead of having machines and cameras and sound crews. +Yah. +Well yes you see, yah, or they use electronic mail to bring it in. +Type it in and it's captured, done, and they use digital photography or remote scanners. +It's amazing what could happen. +So you do that and then you do it, you art direct it like a magazine. +You have certain formatted sections that are the news, straight stuff, or running tabular matter or whatever, but then somebody weighs in on each section, at El Sol we have a graphics person on each desk, but they're divided into work groups so different work groups do different pages. +So everybody, it's sort of like miniature, it's like desk top publishing. +Right. +It's like twenty desk top publishing teams brought together. +Mhm. +And so, you know, on the business desk you might have three teams and the first team is only doing the first page and the opinion and the second team is doing a large amount of financial news and the third team is doing the company news, and then the erm there's a graphics person who's working on charts and stuff. +The data comes in almost without intervention, fills in the pages, and someone just checks it to make sure it fits and erm that's a great system. +So you could actually, if you've got, if you then put, if those graphics people were fairly high powered art directors and they didn't, they didn't, they weren't like, didn't have to show all their stuff, that they had enough news sense to not make any more mistakes than most layout people do on newspapers, which are sometimes colossal, like burying the lead or putting the big story on page thirty-eight, you know. +Then you could like start attracting, I think, younger people to read newspapers again. +Mhm. +I don't, I mean, we're still a relatively literary society. +There's no reason why you couldn't appeal to people and erm for reading, you know, I mean it's like well don't make it in T V, put text in there, but also make it visual. +Yes, yes. +Visual information and not just, you know, kids and or whatever the popular press thinks you are. +I think that's, I mean I think that's why the, the two interesting ends of the U K press are the tabloid end, because it looks, it looks as if it's sort of forged in the heat of hot metal and steaminess and erm the top end and things like the Express and The Mail seem to be entirely flabby in the middle. +Yah. +They're floating around in a very, I mean Today was the worst. +When it first appeared it was absolutely parochial. +It looked like the Oxford Mail on a bad day. +Again it was how not to use the monotype library. +Again it was Nimrod. +It was Nimrod, it was Nimrod with Univers, it was, except occasionally there'd be Grot nine, not because you felt they wanted to use Grot nine, but because they'd said well what's this one that hasn't got serifs. +I mean it had that sort of look to it. +Yeah, it probably was. +They seem to drift about in the middle and good grey columns or rudeness at the other end of the market. +I wish the London Times got better. +Yah, it is sad. +It did, just a few years ago, it was a good . +I mean I think shrinking the broadsheet width has spoilt it a lot. +But there's something very pro forma about it and also the fonts are, they're not display fonts, they're using fonts. +No, again it's not quite Times, which is the pity, because it was the last repository of hand-set monotype, I mean individually cast monotype display headlines erm and Fi ligatures. +What so they now just use Times Bold for a headstyle? +And it's just the text. +I mean they did have it redrawn from the +You see if I would go back, if I were doing it, to Times Heavy Titling or one of those do it all caps forget that. +The titling is absolutely lovely, I mean just wonderful. +The worst thing they ever did was on the leader page, the last one they got rid of the Extended Titling on. +And I remember the day it went from Extended Titling to three three four and it was just three three four, it didn't look as if it had ever been intended to set these lines. +That was a great, those were great, those were great faces. +Well the other thing is they could use, I mean, Monotype should bring out the whole . +Where is Times book, Times Wide? +And Times Light Caps, which is even better. +There you go. +Let's go over there and beat the shit out of them . +They did bring out Times Small Ads and I did try and do a Bible in it but it didn't work. +Oh you gave up on that? +I gave up. +Why? +I used Swift instead. +What made you give up? +They didn't erm the Monotype, bless them, stayed too true original drawings and didn't put any thickening on thins. +I mean there was no ink squash. +Oh, so it was anaemic? +It's, it's, it's, I mean it's like your Modern Number One again, I mean although the character shapes are lovely, I mean although your G looks like that, is exactly the shape you want it to be, these thins here are real hairlines and that's exactly what you don't want it to be in six point, so I stretched the Swift by ten percent. +You extended it, or? +Extended it. +Interesting. +I hadn't counted that idea, possibility, you talked about condensing it. +Yes. +I rang Gerard up and said I think I'm going to condense your typeface and he said yes, yes, condense it by seven percent, I don't mind, which I thought +Yah. +He says that publicly. +erm but then I sort of thought, no, well let's expand this one. +To add weight, is that why you did it? +It adds weight, I mean it's just to make the letters bigger. +It's simply to make the letters bigger and try and get some sense of flow +He did it as a very narrow face. +Yes, yes. +It's not quite but it's more of +Expanding you can always do, it's condensing that's tricky. +I mean I remember when I was at the New York Times and I wanted to use Cheltenham wide for a headline, Cheltenham bold well sort of bold wide, but it's just called Cheltenham wide in the book, and because Cheltenham was always part of the New York Times library, whatever you call it, in the composing room. +And when I took over the magazine I said let's just use the typefaces that they use in the newspaper and supplement them for some headlines, but try to make it belong in the New York Times. +So I expanded to thirty percent on the, they had a Metroset in those days, and I said, you know, this is not likely to work so I'm sending it out getting handset phototype, so I did. +It came back and it was exactly the same. +I mean it was unbelievable, it was uncanny, because all they had done at A T F was, you know, gear it on the pantograph and there was no redrawing or adjustment whatsoever . +I mean usually that just doesn't work because I mean the Guardian, they used to be more bold expanded in the Guardian except for and it was gross. +It was a . +When they tried to set it by setting and him out +It was horrible. +Because it was that point that erm David Berlow made about howthe Condensed Century was done, where he took the Torino serifs and put them on . +It was exactly that problem. +The original had, although it was a very broad face, actually had very finely tuned serifs, and that was, they just got crude when you pulled . +Jim Parker +If it was it wouldn't matter because he's got such a on it anyway. +It's a horrible typeface. +I still like it . +Jim Parkinson did a logo for a magazine called Ocean, where he took Times Bold, widened it slightly and then thinned the serifs and thinned the horizontals way down, and it was wonderful. +You know as a big word ‘Ocean’ it looked fantastic. +It made Times just look super elegant, you know, and yah I, that's what's wrong with all the foundries now, they forgot where they came from. +They've lost sight of there — oh, I've got to get going, what's your schedule. +What did you do to your finger? +You ran into something? +I ran into a earlier on and it's just opened again. +My exciting schedule this afternoon is the knobs and knockers meeting at four o'clock. +The what? +Where we decide what colour the formica in the lavatories in the new building is going to be. +You're kidding? +I'm not kidding. +Why are you on that committee? +Because of your exquisite taste, right? +My exquisite taste in lavatory fittings . +It seems to me to a be a great joke — do they call it the knobs and knockers committee? +You do, you call it that? +The members of the committee call it the knobs and knockers committee. +They do that's wonderful. +Christ Church are slamming us because we haven't got the stuff out of there fast enough. +They're not a very pleasant lot to deal with. +We had to change the lock on their door, and the bloody lock cost thirty seven quid and each key cost five quid to cut, so we're giving them fifty seven quids worth of security for nothing and they complain because I'm not out by twelve o'clock. +They were not happy with the Type ninety group. +Georgiana Greenwood may have been partly to blame, but it had to do with the fact that we really weren't running the conference out of the college. +They like it everyone is sort of their trundling around, the library is showing up for lunch. +There are wild variations where one lunch was scheduled during ATyp — can we have our checks and bills please — one lunch was estimated at seventy people, seventy-eight people and one hundred and fifty came . +And then another lunch was estimated at two hundred and eighty and forty-five came , and it kept swinging like that all week and they never knew what the hell was going to happen so they got really aggravated and then we had, you know, some of the kids, the Ban-the-Bezier group were wandering around with their face masks and their Type ninety bags over their heads and were saying crude things over a megaphone in Tom Quad, right and then these bowler hatted policemen, whoever they are, were patiently explaining to a number of girls who were sunbathing on the lawn that this wasn't done quite that way here . +There was a lot of that . +You're exactly right. +You can imagine two hundred . +Another punt to the left you know. +I think they quite enjoyed it. +Michael Gough, my editor, works for me in New York and he said he went to get a key to get back in after they had closed and they said why and he said because I think that I will be back later than your gate is locked. +What are you going to do. +And he said it's none of your business . +They were like — this was not a convincing argument. +They said there's nothing to do after eleven in Oxford . +And he said something which even annoyed them more, which is something like there is nothing going on in Oxford before eleven that I'm interested in doing . +The one thing that was going on in Christ Church was good — did you see the exhibition, the exhibition +The what? +The exhibition at the Picture gAllery. +What was going on there? +There was a little exhibition called The Nude and basically they've got a nice little Picture Gallery there with sort of various things in, but they also had some lovely anatomy books beside it and so on, some amazing engravings, you know, entire body structures, skeletal man, muscular man,. +I was quite interested 'cos we're actually doing a book on the history of anatomy at the moment, but there was, it was, again that was a nice little theme in the middle of everything else. +It's called the Picture Gallery. +Yes, yes. +Proper Renaissance, proper Baroque pictures +Yes, they have them here at Oxford. +It's wonderful. +They drag them back from Italy at various times. +Yes, yes. +What your A Y things that you are drawing there? +Oh that was when you were talking about your imaginary descenders. +Ah. +I need to see some papers though. +Some newspapers? +Do you have a card on you? +Or where do I — can I write down an address on a piece of paper and I will try to mail them from the hotel. +I've got to get back there and start arranging my erm Well I wasn't very scintillating, I'm sort of tired. +Hope you've got enough. +Thank you. +That's okay. +Yah, all those Grots which were done for El Sol. +Yes, yes, is seen the outline +No that's +It's the PostScript generated outline? +Yah. +It's not a custom outline, or maybe that is +It's not a font. +If he says it is, maybe he made a font. +Well maybe he did tweak it. +The one I've seen was that one on the front page. +Yah, I didn't know, that, I mean, maybe this is a font. +How could it work though? +No, it's knocking itself out. +No you can do white faces of it. +How would it knock out though? +Well you could do an outline and then you could shadow it. +Yah, but see it's overlapping, like there. +How can you make that happen as a font. +I think he fakes this, just because they had them in the books . +Maybe erm oh not they're not just butting are they? +That would work with the T H U R +I'll have to find out what he's done. +But it wouldn't work with the +See in my +Yes, yes, I know what you mean, yes, yes, in there and certainly +What I keep trying to tell him is that if you do something like this, this space underneath has to be at least as much between the top of the S as the and the baseline and they sell them . +Young designers don't get that. +May be the lot does . +Well, thanks for having put up with this thing. +Oh, my pleasure, I forgot it. +I think it's probably worth it. +But call me up if you don't have enough. +Yep, yep. +Great. +Thank you for lunch. +I'll get everything together. +You've got to take your card back. +They want to do something with it maybe. +No, you just have to sign it and take your receipt. +They did it. +They did it? +It's a nice little place. +It is, it is, it's re-opened about a week ago, having been shut for re-doing. + +I hate Vegemite, it's too salty. +Yeah but Marmite's too +Yuk +Tom what have we got first, +Er B then M. +B then M? +Yeah. +Oh erm well you don't seem in a very good mood. +Will you wait for me, what time are you leaving here, about three two? +Why er why I, those are my problems cos I can't go. +She just left a message on the phone. +I can't do it, Ginny has to do it. +I can't do it either. +Why can't you do it? +arrange a, to arrange er for you to have a facial done then. +Yeah. +as well? +Yes +I do. +I know but skin +Yeah but you don't actually have any acne. +But I have serious blackheads. +I have no but I have acne. +Serious blackheads. +It's a problem, it's a problem. +No you haven't. +One spot is acne to me . +That's really nice. +Shall we watch T V? +Yeah. +We might as well there's nothing else to do, apart from my, apart from my UCCA form. +Why don't you +Alright friends? +Alright. +Please don't crowd me at once, you know +it's alright it's not a problem. +I don't mind having no friends. +Are you tape recording? +Yeah. +Don't you just love Claire she's such a nice girl. +She's so fucking easy as well. +I know, rough bit. +That's the worst insult Claire can give. +What? +Oh I'm sorry but they are so , oh what, well actually we live in Majorca you know? +Her house is disgusting. +Is it? +Is it really really rough? +It's like you know those houses +Her mum is fucking Sharon +Has it got all those little little crystally ornaments? +you know how you get those rows that are literally on a row? +All it is is like this +What? +like a big rectangle. +What? +Their house. +I thought it was some massive mansion. +What is it, have they have they got little things like little +Duck +crystal ornaments everywhere? +And gold carriage clocks and all the brass carriage clocks shit. +Well they +Are you saying there's something wrong with brass carri +really trendy. +A really antique one +Yeah +Yeah that really old one. +Always tells the weather as well. +No ours is very small. +Ours is about that big and +I think it must have been really fashionable at one point. +Yeah. +We've got the most hideous plates in the drawers +Now you get them free from Esso and stuff +if you send away fifty tokens. +just pop in, fill up in my imaginary car, yeah. +Yeah! +Fill up eh! +Er +Yeah another burn out! +You're recording aren't you? +Yeah +Yeah while the other one's playing. +And tonight I'm having two of my very favourite friends over and I'm gonna be eating my and I'm gonna go sucking them up, urgh I can hardly wait. +Where's this from? +It's one of your pornos isn't it? +Who? +Urgh what's she doing back? +Who let her out the zoo? +Why don't you? +You waiting for someone? +Oh God yeah I'm just waiting for to come in now. +Come on +Yeah. +Is Laura still at home? +Mm. +What's fucking wrong with her anyway? +I never realized she wasn't, wasn't here. +I never realized she was, she was wasn't here until about yesterday. +No until she just told me now. +Has she shagged ? +No. +No. +Sorry? +She's contemplating the emotional +No no no, apparently +Yeah but come on okay, apparently erm after chapel +apparently +once, okay, she did everything but shag Harry in his study. +Yeah I heard that. +No but erm apparently they, they were +She's a +at Max and Jamie's party they were getting off with each other +Oh yeah, and she +and she was arched over like this, yeah, and they were getting off and she went for his belt yeah and she was gonna undo his belt and Jules went Laura Laura not now, you know, just don't undo my belt. +She's such a rough bird. +Bird . +Bird . +recording again. +No I'm not. +Yes she is. +Tomorrow. +Yeah but how much have you done already? +I'm er I'll show you. +Cos I've done absolute cack. +I've done the bit where like on, is it D? +Like and all that lot? +Apart from that that's it. +erm just, just so fucked with this. +Erm +Have you actually like translated it and stuff? +No way. +Not a word. +There's so much to do and something about money, that's about as much as I know. +It's about money, look, that's how much I've done. +Oh good. +Good. +I can't do that first bit, I copied that off this bit's not too bad +No that's pretty easy. +I'm just pretending we're not doing C again. +We don't do C. +Don't we anyway? +How's this? +Well that's what you told me. +Oh is this bit okay erm you do that and then you just put like +That's what I'm gonna put. +Have you done this? +No. +I'm gonna get fucked over this stuff. +It's not a problem,it's not a problem . +Yeah but Carolyn goes to fucking . +What's happened with Jenny? +Jenny who? +. +Don't know. +They don't know yet. +Why what's supposed to happen then? +Well she was Dave in lesson time apparently. +Yeah I know. +Isn't she gonna get a shite on? +Oh! +Oh gossip! +Gossip! +George have just had a cuss outside. +Yeah I know. +It's obscene. +How fucking disgusting. +It is rough, I'm sorry it really makes me sick. +How desperate is he? +How desperate is he? +Very, he must be desperate because she is such a rough tart. +What is his problem? +I don't know. +God has he got no taste? +No he hasn't at all. +God. +God. +God. +God again. +God look at the size of this fucking hole I've got to live in. +How long are you all staying here for? +Fucking ages, I don't know. +Oh well. +It's so infuriating and have you seen the Cambridge photos? +No. +Oh my how drunk were you? +Why have you got oh you know a grapefruit between your legs +A melon I was giving birth to it. +That's nice. +Mm. +Yeah well shall we go and socialize? +Yeah. +Shall we go and socialize? +Come on then love. +You'll just have to make sure you clean your sheets after that been jizzling all over it. +No I took the sheets off, I made him put his own sheets on. +Yeah? +Took my pillows, took my duvet. +Oh that's alright, it's not a problem. +Thing is there's no way Gemma and and that are gonna be allowed to stay upstairs when they've got boys downstairs. +Why, do you think they'll a paedophile or something ? +No but I mean I just can't see that. +Why not? +It's like not moral. +Not moral? +Cos that's why they had to move out of this house in the first +Place. +Oh well. +No but who do you want to snog? +Don't know! +No well there must be a list of people or something. +Oh yeah yeah I just keep a list of people who +No no write another fucking list every single time. +I don't know, I just want to snog. +Josh? +Josh, Phil. +I told Phil I fancied him I went Phil, you're my man. +What'd he say ? +He goes oh oh Kath thanks +we followed him over to Albans and I walked in and he goes, he goes oh it's my disciples +you just follow me everywhere don't you? +Oh God we just fancy him so much! +I went yeah Phil we all love you. +Stupid. +Dick . +I want to know why Si hasn't come up tonight. +He went home. +He was feeling rough. +He looked it baby. +Shut up. +You love it. +I don't love it. +I just wanna snog the boy again. +Oh God this whole school revolves around snogging people, going out with people, shagging people. +It's just a nightmare. +It's just like a real system isn't it? +Mm. +My last school wasn't like this at all, probably cos it was a day school +Yeah that was that was a convent. +break it. +It's not a problem. +No that's probably cos it was a girls school? +A day school +Mm. +and a convent. +That would explain it I suppose. +Yeah exactly. +Oh I've got a really sore neck. +I need some strong man to massage me. +Oh you're such a whore. +I'm not a whore. +Yes you are. +Fuck off. +Fuck off fuck off +No I really am getting annoyed now. +Why? +Because I dunno because it was you know if you get off with someone on a Saturday night yeah? +Mm. +Then and then you get off, if you get off with them again on the Sunday +Mm. +and you assume something's gonna happen and just cos, I mean I was too embarrassed to speak to him on like Monday and Tuesday +Mm. +it's now ended up like nothing's happening. +But it's really obvious that we're gonna get off with this weekend cos we both keep making endu innuendos about it. +baby things like that. +Urgh urgh. +Exactly. +Some of the dreams I've had are just really odd, sorry but dreaming about a white hearse is just +That's so +head fuck, completely. +I had an odd dream last night actually +What? +I dreamt I went I think I went to France, I think I was, I went on a day trip to France +Well at least you didn't dream about shoving a blue towel up your trouser leg, well done. +Yeah we went to France and then the thing about the bath came back and we all had a bath but we were all wearing clothes +Weird. +nothing sexual about it. +Oh no nothing sexual about it, no +What you and me with our clothes on? +Oh God I thought you were +Urgh. +I thought we were talking about Si, I'm really really confused. +No no no no. +Queer bastard. +Who's a que me? +Mm. +I'm not queer! +Oh mm. +We're gonna spend the day in London, go shopping +Guess what my dad told me today? +What? +He says erm he said he might er might be able to get me a car for the Christmas holidays +Ah! +You bitch. +just for the Christmas holidays. +I haven't even passed my bloody test yet for fuck's sake. +Wow! +I couldn't believe my, I found out my friend had passed, I was so shocked. +Mm. +What were you erm what were you s how come you were waiting for Jim tonight? +Outside. +Ah cos I was just lusting after, no no no no no no, no, no +You thought I'd got off with him for fuck's sake! +Oh did Lizzie tell you? +Mm. +No no I, I don't know, I sort of thought something might've happened. +Oh yeah well you know, oh yeah +No well we th what you, what were you +No well I was, I was just telling him something and I said I'm not telling you till er ten thirty just to keep him in suspense. +I can't believe +I know he's such a dick. +Why didn't he go and bust them? +Maybe he was bored with busting people. +What happened? +Okay erm Jim and Si were over by the trees having a fag and walked +So you could see Jim. +right past them with his dog and he didn't do a thing. +Well like he walked up towards like facing the direction where they were standing +Yeah, exactly. +and you could see Jim's like, his body shape +Yeah you could tell +cos you know like he wasn't close enough to the trees +No. +there was like the light between them, and they were like +so obvious there's a person over there, and he was, he looked and then he, he just walked, walked off towards his house. +That nice. +Yeah but they pegged it back afterwards. +I know. +They were cacking themselves, it was really funny. +I cannot get busted. +If I ever got busted I'd be in such fucking shit. +You smoke don't you? +Yeah er no I +, didn't even congratulate me when I walked in tonight for my wonderful singing . +Did you solo? +No, don't be stupid, I can't sing +great yeah she's so +Who, who? +Has she got a really good voice? +She has, oh it's incredible. +She's on a full sch music scholarship you know. +Really? +Mm. +Yeah they pay for everything. +Shit! +I wish they'd pay for me. +Just like me, ha ha ha. +Pay for me to doss yeah. +Yeah right. +Right +My plane ticket's even paid for I don't pay a cent to be here. +Really? +Yeah. +You're not paying like school fees or anything? +No. +I mean I have to pay for my books at the end of the year but that's all. +Jesus Christ! +Er prep was a nightmare my middles +no, no +Oh you took prep? +I had to take prep, yeah, and my middles were being really really disgusting. +They were going +They're such terrors +I'm gonna have to take my brother for prep. +Can you believe that? +the girls take the removes instead of the +Miss +instead of the middles like we used to +Yeah. +I'm gonna lose my voice, I think I wanna be ill actually so I can go home and don't, don't come back. +No you don't wanna be ill. +I don't wanna come back. +You don't wanna be ill cos when I was admitted to the san I nearly died, I tried everything to get out the san and she just wouldn't +I know, mm I think I'll just stay at home. +let me. +I think I'll just go home on Sunday and stay at home, go home and s tell my, pretend to my mum I'm dying like spend all day asleep. +I'm going to the pub this weekend. +Hello! +Can I come and complain to you about please? +Yes. +Come on. +What's he done. +Fucking dick! +Fucking hate him, fucking hate the fucking school. +I went down to see Will at ten o'clock after +Yeah? +Yeah? +my parents had gone +Yeah? +went down to see him and he was in his study because he, he, as you know I was with my parents +Yeah? +and he went straight back to his study and I thought I'd go and see him because my parents had gone +Yeah? +so I tap on the window, had just gone past and I was just about to go in his room, you know, cos he's standing there and I just tapped on the window come outside Nick had just walked by and Rick and were talking you know it's not like the dead of night and everything's quiet +Yeah. +he said to me it's a bit late to go knocking on windows isn't it, and I was like I didn't say anything I just thought well +No. +Yeah. +But you can't really say that. +and he said erm come on this is the boys' area or something like that erm and I just stood there, I was so amazed because he's wrong, you're allowed to go +I know that's the visiting times you're allowed to be down there +Yeah. +till what, ten fifteen? +Yeah. +I wasn't in his study. +Yeah. +Oh what an arsehole. +Did Will come out? +Yeah, well no cos he just, he pulled the curtain +I was knocking and then and then he said and er I just stood there he said like you know you're not allowed to be here it's too late, it's the boys' area erm come on, sort out, you know, come on sort it out you know like he says that +He's anal retentive, that's what it is. +He's what? +Anal retentive . +Anal retentive anal +What else did he say? +Did he tell you to go? +Yeah. +He said come on +sort it out and I walked off and like I just walked away and Achil and thingy were laughing at, you know, cos not at me at how crap +Yeah. +had been and how I had to go away +Yeah. +Oh hello party +Oh hello. +This is a shock, no one ever comes down here. +Bet it's all cos Nick isn't down there or something, no you've just been with Nick . +Sorry. +So I walked off so I said to +Oh that's alright, +fucking, fucking crap and as I was saying that my voice broke and I walked off and I started crying +so pissed off, it just makes me feel such a girl. +You're not allowed here, this is the boys' +Yeah +He's such an arsehole. +part you're not part of this school, we're meant to be part of the school. +Yeah. +It's cos he's a fucking sexist isn't he? +He's so sexist. +biased. +What did he say? +He just, I went down to visit Will and I w would have got there like four minutes past ten or something and I n n knocked on his window and about +Mm. +just about to go in his room erm Will's study you know he said, you know, bit late to go knocking on the window, this is the boys' area er er you know, you shouldn't be here at this time of night, this is the boys' area. +He's such a bastard. +Yeah but visiting time is till ten fifteen. +Yeah. +Yeah. +We invite boys into our common room, you know +Yeah. +Mm. +erm you know +And that's even closer to the girls +Dick. +Oh no, why didn't you say to him look I thought I was allowed to see er like +Well I was going to, I was just gonna say, I didn't know exactly, yeah I didn't know exactly what to say but I felt really silly saying it's visiting times at the moment, or I'm allowed to see him now, I don't know I +Yeah. +Yeah well then you don't know whether he's gonna bite your head off, mm. +I suddenly wondered if I was allowed +Yeah +He's such an arsehole. +But I can't believe when he s called you a slut +What! +Oh my God at swimming! +Called you a slut? +She was chewing, okay, and +I wasn't chewing gum though, I was eating sweets +no you were like eating or something mm +yeah. +and he goes God you're such a slut or something, got really aggressive. +He goes don't you know it's rude to eat in public. +You girls lower the school down, you look like a slut, yeah? +And I was standing there going +Oh God, I would've crawled into a hole for the rest of my life . +I, I was standing next to her, I was going Jesus Christ! +I know, everyone was just going then erm I told my m my er parents and my parents said to me go and tell your house master so I told +What a shit. +told his wife and his wife went and had a go at him +I would, yeah. +and then, and then came up to me and said erm +He didn't +if you if you go and see this afternoon erm he would like to speak to you and I was like he should come and speak to me +Yeah! +Yeah. +and erm +So you went and saw him? +so I went and saw him and he goes I didn't mean it as a slut as, as in a promiscuous woman +so he goes, no he goes I, I mean it as a slovenly woman, like you're +so much better! +He goes I didn't mean to insult you, oh no sir, right, yeah! +slovenly from time to time, yeah. +And then he goes, he goes erm it's, it gets erm it really gets to me when I think people are chewing around school, I don't know what to do to stop people and I wasn't chewing, yes well it looked like chewing, but I wasn't chewing! +Oh God it was so pathetic. +But just to call anyone a slut is just so rude. +It's just so rude, I know. +I know you don't, especially an adult in this school calling someone +I know. +They're not adults in this school, don't worry. +Oh yeah, +My dad, do you know what my dad said? +My dad was, my dad walked straight, just past him, was like where you are and my dad was where my feet are +Yeah? +and he goes that's that fucking arsehole that called you a slut isn't it? +And I was like +can you say it any louder dad +as well like er he sounds so funny . +Yeah he speaks and he goes you alright Kath and I went +What! +yeah hi +My dad said hello to you? +Yeah! +How the hell did he know who you are? +I don't know. +Oh blimey . +He just went hello Kath, I went right, yeah, yeah cos I do actually know who you are +I just remember the time he came into erm and he had a fag and he set the alarm off. +Are you recording that? +Did he? +Mr +Have you recorded me complaining about ? +Oh probably, it doesn't matter. +Wait, Mr smokes +Does he? +Does he? +Oh I thought you said he had a fag and he set off the alarm. +No no no no no her dad had one +Oh. +My dad . +and he set the alarm off +Did he? +When? +Yeah. +He came to see you, he came in with a fag, wafting it around the place +Did he? +and the, the er alarm started beeping inside the machine, we were going +I didn't know this. +oh my God, my God problem, problem. +I didn't know this. +dad walked up here, yeah, +It was so funny. +We used to do that all the time +chain smoker. +Should I do anything though? +Because he was wrong and he just made me feel really crap. +Mm right. +Go and tell . +Just go +I was gonna but I, I thought, I thought if sees me when I come in, cos I had make up all down my face cos I'd been so upset, I got so angry with the whole thing +Mm. +Yeah. +it just makes you wanna +Yeah. +and I've got so much work you just think oh fuck it it's Mr 's such a dick, I hate that man, he really +Yeah I hate it when he, he makes you feel like God +he makes you feel so crap. +I really wish I wasn't here. +That's what I was saying to Will and +Did Will come out then ? +Yeah he came out afterwards but I don't think he realized because he didn't come out +Yeah. +I thought if M if Dr looked at me and oh are you alright, I was that angry to actually say something cos I wondered if, you know, shall I, if I shut up +Mm +I never I never knew whether to say anything +it's probably safest to shut up about things like that though +to until erm until when I came back after I'd spoken to my parents that weekend. +Yeah. +Well you'd definitely got something but I +I know. +I haven't, mine's not quite as bad as that but er he was wrong I think. +I know. +Just say to erm I am er I mean Mr told me +But the point is +yeah. +er we all hate the school and if we all hate the school, no wonder no girls are coming. +Mm. +If you hate the school, you're not going to say to someone hey come to Haileybury. +Right. +Right. +purple skirt. +Which one? +How many purple skirts you got Siobhan? +Two. +She's got two. +sexually frustrated. +Sounds right. +Oh you're sexually frustrated as well, that's good, at least I'm not the only one. +I'll wear a skirt tomorrow. +I'm probably the sexually frustratedest person in this school. +Kath. +Kath I'm gonna wear a skirt +Yeah, why? +Cos! +I went for a MacDonalds after +Really? +Because I cannot find a fucking man. +There aren't any nice men here. +I know, they're boys. +They're prepubescent dicks basically +Yes no they don't have dicks, they have little knobs. +so stupid. +they're not used to girls being round till they're +Yeah. +in the sixth form. +Yeah and also it's like if you a personality here then you're doomed. +I mean when I got, when I got here okay er when I was in the lower sixth and I like sort of got in and then like it was so weird being, I mean I'd never been to a blokes' school before I came here +Oh really? +Really? +so I'd never had blokes in my class, it was really really weird +Yeah, I'm sure. +and they were such a load of dicks when we first met, you know, and they're just like trying to impress all the time and now I mean you've been here for, what, a year and, year and a bit and +And you know them and you see them when they look like shit in the morning and you see their +Yeah exactly . +I mean I went to a boarding school before I came here that was just like that but, but it was more like, I don't know, the guys there, I had more friends that were boys than friends with the girls, yeah +Mm. +because like I don't know, but it seems like they're, they're they don't, they're not interested in being friends with you er it's just like I wanna fuck you I don't wanna I don't really wanna talk to you +Yeah. +urgh! +Who's a student here? +I'll do whatever I feel like when I'm +I was thinking when I've left the school if anything else happens I'll just feel really pissed off and I'm gonna write a letter and say, you know, now I've left the school +I feel quite +Yeah and I'll say, I mean +you are the reason why I left the school, you know, none of the girls are happy by their upper sixth, in the lower sixth you might think it's alright but by the time +Yeah but in the lower sixth the fucking rules +this time last year that +I know, it depends how much you've been caught for. +Oh my God the time I nearly got busted! +did you +For fuck's sake, when I was going, when I +Well have you ever have you ever been busted for smoking? +No. +When I was going out with Tom +Oh yeah. +erm +you got busted in the lane didn't you? +Easter term, Easter term, down the lane okay suddenly like torches it was ,, and +They were supposed to be at a play weren't they? +Yeah +Yeah. +and they got cacked on and I was going oh no no no, I don't smoke, don't smoke, don't smoke erm I was just down here with my boyfriend you know having a sly snog, you know +Ooh ooh a snog having a slog, you know, behind the tree Mr +yeah and I was being sly about it, going down the lane not standing right outside his house, right. +Oh I just remember cacking myself it was just so, so scary. +What did the boys get ? +They got four I D Ts. +Tom didn't get anything though cos I said he didn't smoke . +Who's he? +Do I, is he still here? +He's going out with Lucy +Oh yeah. +but I can't, I can't, I don't know what anyone actually sees in her. +She, I think she's fucking ugly. +I she's fucking +Yeah. +and she's quite ugly and her shoes +She's so +make her feet swing along +oh I love their platform shoes, I mean they're fucking rub they can't even walk in them. +Mm. +No I just don't, I mean I don't understand what's like if you see who's going out with people it's always the boringest people, I've never seen any of them smile, laugh, talk, they just, they just seem like to be shells of people +Mm. +Like +People going out with people? +Like me? +like, like with no no no no no no no I'm talking about +Yeah you're very boring did you know that? +Yeah, yeah, we don't like you. +like, like, like Lucy, I've never heard a word come out of her mouth. +That's cos it's a +She's quiet like that anyway. +no but they go around with, she goes around with Katrina and Zoey and it's like a little clique +Oh. +I mean I like them, I like most of them +Katrina's quite nice she has nice +Katrina's really nice she's +I like Katrina, I'm not sa I can't say anything cos I don't know them +but it's just it seems to me like, like the boys must be intimidated by girls who actually +What house are you in? +Mm. +Who have you got in your house? +Oh you've got big schlong er Mark +Oh does he have a big schlong +Yeah, a very large one. +Really? +How do you know? +I don't know, it's just +Oh I've heard about that, who to someone told me. +apparently he's got a +It's Ally in who's got a really big one. +Trina knows that he's got a big schlong. +Alistair , the deaf bloke, yeah. +I've seen it . +Have you? +When? +I was lifeguarding at the swimming pool, I turned around and the silly shit was getting out of +his school uniform, strip naked, was standing at the other end of the pool didn't say anything,Al Alistair , deaf guy +Oh yeah. +pulls on his trunks then he swims for a while, gets out, takes off his trunks, puts his towel round himself, rubs himself, walks round the pool a couple of times and rubs himself +takes the towel off and puts his uniform back on and I was like +Did you see it completely? +yeah, well, you know +Has he got a massive dick? +I don't know I didn't stare that long . +Cor! +Oh my God it was so funny. +House swimming when they're all standing up and sort of going oh no no, God cover up, you know +I'm not swimming this year. +No nor am I, +But I'm gonna have to there are only two girls in the lower sixth. +I'm not, I refuse to, I refuse to swim, point blank. +Yeah but you've got, at least you've got, you've got four, Thompson's got most girls. +Has it? +Yeah. +It did have last year. +It has this year as well I think. +Li there are four +Yeah there's two +She's a dick. +Who is she going out with? +Ed . +Who's Ed ? +Ed 's a dick as well. +He is, I've seen him but I've ne I don't, I've never, like I've never spoken to him +Heard of him. +Why's he a dickish? +What's wrong with him? +Oh God +Dunno he's just a dick apparently apparently. +Apparently. +Oh apparently! +Can't believe it, my mum brought food for my brother up today +for you. +And you didn't br she didn't bring +she didn't bring me any, she didn't even think to bring me my washing. +My mummy brought me a bit and we're going out on Saturday anyway. +I can't wait +I'm going to the pub on Saturday! +Where are you going? +I'm going to London +Duncan Arms. +I might, I mean you don't mind if I +No oh well actually we do, me and Ros want to have a quiet drink on our own, you know! +Our pub. +A quiet, a quiet Diet Coke, you know! +cos there's no alcohol +We're not drinking alcoholically on Saturday at all. +Okay then. +We're, we're on the water, we're on the water. +Right, that's why you're going out for the whole evening, for the water eh? +Yeah. +It's better in the Duncan Arms than it is here right? +Yeah, I mean, you know, I've run out of Diet Coke here so you know I'll have to go and have some at the pub, yeah. +Yeah, right. +Have you told +Shit the last time yeah, the last time I was there I was so fucked, I had what a pint of cider, we did Tequila shots +Let's start there +Pale +Very pale, very cold and clammy +Cold and clammy +okay, don't say blue, because otherwise you'll get it mixed up with asphyxia +Put +very pale, if you saw somebody in a hospital bed who'd just suffered shock, they'd be the same colour as the sheet they're lying on their face is absolutely white, okay, very, very pale, very cold and very clammy, now supposing the doctor asks you why are they cold and clammy? +Why are they cold? +Because they've lost blood +No blood near the skin, no blood near the skin, okay, why no blood near the skin? +mm? +Guarding er the vital organs +Right, because the body is acting in order to protect its vital organs and it's drawing the blood vessels near the skin, shut down, you're not needed there, you're needed here, in the core of the body, because your blood is what warms your skin up, it's taken away from the skin, then the skin feels cold and clammy, yeah, clammy because of course if there's no heat, we sweat all the time and especially if somebody's had an accident or is seriously ill they will be sweating, yes, then there's nothing to dry the sweat off okay, what happens when we sweat excessively in the summer time? +Dehydrate +You get wet, sweaty, but there's nothing to dry the sweat off, not sweating and drying off, so they feel clammy, okay, so we've looked at their colour and we've felt their skin and we've felt that it's horrible and clammy and cold, what about their pulse, we've gone down to the pulse now +It becomes rapid +Fast +Faster +Fast, anything else about it? +Weak +Weak, so why is it fast? +The arteries are pumping harder +The heart is having to pump harder, why? +Try to get more air into the arteries +Is trying to get more blood round the system +It's trying to do the same work with the smaller amount of blood as it did with the full amount, ten pints perhaps reduced down to seven, got to keep pump, pump, pump, pump, pump, pump, pump, because that little bit of blood has got to get round and do a lot more work now, okay, so the blood's rushing round and the heart is pushing faster because it's having to, because it's not enough of the, not so much pressure there, that's why it feels weak, weak and fast, okay? +We haven't got much blood now, it's working away like mad, so now what are you lacking? +Oxygen +So when you hear people who are in shock, they'll be okay and that's how they are, they're panting, breath, right, very fast and very shallow, they're not calm, they're panting for breath all the time, okay, so that's how you see them. +What are they going to tell you? +How will they feel? +Want a drink +Bloody awful, in an awful, in a word, now qualified, how they bloody awful tell me? +Sick +Sick, could feel sick +Could have a headache +Stress +Cold +Light headed +Faint +Cold +Faint +Restless to talk to +Restless, disorientated +Mm +Okay, all of those things, what are you going to do for them? +Lay them down +You've stood and looked at them you've listened to what they've told you, now what can you do? +Lay them down and raise their legs +If it's humanly possible, lay them down, raise the legs, how about if they're shivering? +Maintain their body heat +Supposing they start sweating? +Remove +Take some off +Okay, you want the body temperature kept at an even level, don't have it too high, don't have it too low, cos if you shiver you make use of muscles and then the muscles will call on oxygen and then you'll shiver, you don't want them there you want the blood in here, if you make them sweat you'll bring the blood to the surface of the skin again to lose heat, and that's again precisely where you don't need, you want it in the core of the body so you maintain an even body temperature. +Shall we give them a nice sweet, hot cup of coffee? +No +Nothing by mouth at all, no brandy? +No +Nothing by mouth what else can you do for them? +Reassure them +Reassure them, time's going by +Check +Get help +Ambulance +Ambulance, thank goodness someone's remembered, patting this person's hand, and putting blankets on and reassuring them, telling them everything's alright, and blood all over the floor, thank god someone's gone to get the ambulance +Stem the bleeding +Right, and stem the bleeding if you can see where it's coming from attempt to stem the bleeding, bung the hole up, okay? +Right, so now we've got round to what we can do for the casualty, let's have a look and see what the body's trying to do here and then we'll say how you'll help them a bit more. +If the person's bleeding, not just a little tiny cut now, not like the graze this morning, this is real, this is serious bleeding okay? +First of all you've got the blood pressure falls, the body does that automatically for itself mm, mm, the body does that for itself how can we help it? +Falls partly because it's shutting down the ends of the arteries, the arteries themselves can actually contract because they're muscular walled, yes, the arteries can contract and that tends to shut down and reduce the pressure slightly in that area, right and also the body itself is gonna divert that blood isn't it to the core of the body taking it away from other areas, damaged areas, so how can we help to reduce the pressure any more? +Supposing I've got a cut right across my wrist here, or someone has +Direct pressure +Elevate it +Hold it up, now you're reducing the pressure to the area because the heart's got to pump harder to get it up there okay, so we hold the hand or the limb higher than the heart and that will reduce the pressure still further, the ends of the blood vessels contract so how can we help them to contract even more? +Direct pressure +Direct pressure over the wound, not your hand but the casualty's if they're still conscious blood clots yes, what's helping it to clot is a special process in the blood +Plasma +Not plasma +Platelet +Platelet, right, it's the platelet that help clot okay, so how can we help it to clot even more? +Fibrous +A better, put a fibrous pad over it, so a pad, pressure directly over the wound initially, that's the first treatment done, see to casualty put pressure immediately over the wound and raise the limb higher than the heart, then the first aid equipment that you'll need is a fibrous pad to bind over it, to keep the pressure on. +Pad, pressure and elevation in most instances will stem severe external bleeding, pad, pressure and elevate, okay, let's just reinforce that for you pad, pressure and elevate, right and that should control a severe external bleeding. +How will you know if the blood is coming from er an artery that's cut? +pumping, yes, if I, somebody had slit me here okay, blood from my +artery, it's probably quite easy, the television set, then after that it'll drop off obviously because the body is pulling the pressure down all the time, it does, okay, but if it was a vein? +Blue, blueish +and it'll flow out, okay, now we know that's the difference in colour and I've already told you that the arteries have got muscles in their walls, what's the difference in between the wall of the muscle, muscular wall, let's put my teeth back in, the muscular wall of the artery and the wall of the vein? +the vein has got the valve to it, but only the veins in these parts, the extremities, you see, the lower abdomen and legs, arms, you don't find those veins everywhere +Is that because of the distance they have to travel? +with the vein's with the valves in everywhere , yes, it's because they've got to somehow or other, you've got to somehow or other get the blood back up to the heart again, it's not under pressure is it any more, cos it's lost a lot of its pressure and the way it gets back to the heart of course that is it's lying alongside the bones and the arteries and as you're walking around, okay, the arteries are still having the pressure working, the muscles are still working and the vein lies next to it and the blood is able to be milked up, it's milked back up to a non return valve, that shuts off and it can't drop back down any further and the next bit does the next bit up, okay, and then that shuts off and eventually it gets back to the heart and the capillaries what will that look like when it's bleeding? +Their bleeding capillaries +Bright red +Oozing +Oozing, not bright red, but mixed, it's mixed bleeding really you've got from capillary and very often in any injury you'll get mixed bleeding, but are you going to be too concerned and analyze too carefully whether it's blood from a vein or blood from an artery if it's pouring out? +No +It's blood that's being lost at a high rate, it's dangerous whatever ver vessel it's coming from, so you will stop it by pad, pressure and elevation, you will attempt to reduce the loss of blood and assist the formation of a clot, once you've assisted in the formation of a clot, by putting the pad on it, would it be sensible to have a little peak to see how it's doing? +No, no +It would not would it, so leave it in position and if you need to put another pad over the top, then do that, more pressure and a bigger pad, never take the original one off, okay, leave it on otherwise you'll open up the wound again and you'll have all that problem over again, so pad, pressure and elevate, what if it don't work? +Why don't you put say another pad on top, more pressure, it's still not working and you've tried it again and it's still not working +Pressure point +then you can go to indirect pressure and try to control the flow of bleeding by using indeed direct pressure, away from the wound, but where an artery, okay, is running near a bone, so you can compress the artery against the bone squash it hard, and for the arm you'd use this one under here called the breaking now press, move your biceps muscle away and press underneath there, you can perhaps try to feel it for yourself, did you do that this morning or not? +Or yesterday? +I did do it yes +Mm, okay +Feel the pulse +so you felt that and that pulse point there if you press on it hard enough you can actually stop the one in the wrist and of course that is controlling the flow of blood to the rest of the arm and you leave a pressure point closed off like that for no more than ten minutes, because if you left it on for too long that it means not sufficient blood's getting to the rest of the, the limbs and the limb must have its blood supply, so you leave the pressure on for ten minutes and then release it, say for ten seconds just so say that the hand comes back pinkish again and if it's not slowing down, back on with the pressure again for another ten minutes and that's how you use it, tap off, ten minutes at the most, tap on for a little while, if it's leaked again reapply, ten minutes at the most, tap on again, okay and that's how you'll control it, so if you do have a sit a situation where the bleeding was bad cos you've got a, a limb severed, you couldn't perhaps put sufficient direct pressure over that limb, this done, right, to control the bleeding then you could use indirect pressure, here, breaking or here, right in the, no playing now please, no trying to find this one right now, do this one tonight, in bed and the old lady said now what are you doing to me, never you mind, go to sleep +find time +Say they just going for a walk, yeah, and you come across this, say this young kid has been climbing up the trees and hurt his leg, you're the only person around, so you, you've got to get help yeah, cos he's losing a lot of blood, but you've got to stop his blood same time as you've got to get help, yeah, so what's the priority, you just stay +Stop the blood +you just stay with him? +mm, eventually, hopefully somebody will come along or hopefully the blood will, the blood will slow down enough +To slow it off +will clot +Yeah that's what I mean, could you put a tourniquet on just for ten minutes to try and get help? +You don't put the tourniquet on at all, don't mention tourniquet in, in first aid work, it's a no no area +Say if it's in such a secluded place you know if you're gonna be there for twenty, er for days, there's no help +Well if he was there and you came along well that's two people, so it's not that secluded, okay, so we have to look on the positive side, if at the end of the day you're going to get to a situation where, okay, you can see that the ordinary erm true blue course of events is just not gonna work, then it's down to you, you have then got to make up your own mind what you're going to do for the casualty and your own safety, okay, if somebody had been bleeding that long and you couldn't of got help for them, what would your priority now probably be? +What do you think they'd be like by now? +Dead +They'd probably be unconscious and they may of stopped breathing, okay, so you know, your priority changes as your time scale changes and you have to be aware of what to do and what is possible to do next okay? +If you decide at the end of the day the thing to do is to pick up this kid and run like hell for somewhere you can gain, wave for help, or put him in the car and drive like mad to the hospital, then you might just do that, even though it breaks all the golden rules of first aid +That's what I mean, because if, I guarantee if someone was put in a situation with blood everywhere and that, with being the first aider they've got to stay calm, but I, I'd say fifty per cent of all people would pick that kid up and run like hell +Right, they probably would especially if you could +it's just a natural reaction, you know +but I mean how about little Mel, wouldn't pick him up +It'd break him +Start digging +You'll be needing a burial won't you? +Seeing as you didn't buy me a pint today +Yeah, you might just do that, as I say all we can do is tell you what is possible, okay, there are going to be in +your own instinct about what is the sensible thing to do and the right thing to do in that incident and take charge, and you will just get on and do the very, very best that you can, you know what you need to do, you need to stop the bleeding, you know what the person needs, he needs medical aid quickly okay? +But if you're in a situation where that's not possible then you'll do the very best you can, but you're always going to be on the look out for the priorities as they change, cos once the person stops breathing they become unconscious, they stop breathing, their heart stops, then everything else has to wait and you have to try and get on with that, okay? +Yeah +So indirect pressure, that one then is the feneral and that's the breaking, they're the only two we worry about, okay, the feneral and if they ask where it is don't sort of put two hands over and hang on to your crutch like mad because that isn't really where the feneral artery is +okay, it is where the trouser crease meets the line of the groin and it's skin deep, okay, so you'll pushing onto it you'd probably have to put your two fingers and a pad and your knuckles right in there, alright and you'll feel it yourself best when you're lying down and your knee just up like that, that's when you can feel it best because you can push in harder then, cos you've relaxed your stomach and that's another tip for putting pressure on it when you've got somebody who needs that, you need to relax the stomach muscle, but you manage to put pressure up there okay? +Righto the abdomen muscles not the stomach muscles +right, everyone okay so far then? +Alright, so we've done all that lot and you've got your external bleeding under control you've used indirect pressure and direct pressure, now's another topping, there's always is isn't there? +You can see the person is in shock, there's no sign of any blood +Internal bleeding +internal bleeding, right so the internal bleeding sometimes shows itself externally, for example if I had damage to my lungs or severe damage to the inside of my lungs I'd cough up blood and that's in, what do you think? +What colour? +Frothy red +Very red and frothy, frothy colour blood, okay, supposing I had er damaged the lining of the stomach, or perhaps I've had an ulcer that I've perforated, and I was coughing up blood from the stomach what colour might that be? +Mm, the fluid's gran granuled +Grained, granuley, browney, coffee +Coffee +colour, browney, that's from the stomach okay? +Supposing that the damage to the intestines was further down in, in gut area here okay, and there was bleeding in the gut +Motions +Motions, right, black and smelly, okay, and according to how the different colour of the motion be there, or the different colour of the grains were there would give an indication of how long this'd been going on or how far up the gut it was, and the damage was okay? +Supposing then that there was water with bloodstain in it, when somebody went to the toilet, urine, pass their urine, where, where would the damage be then do you think? +Bladder +Bladder or the +Kidneys +kidneys, so it'd come out in there, okay, so those are the areas where damage int internal organs, but yet you still have some sign eventually of blood loss, but there are still some organs in the body where there is no sn nowhere at all an outlet, the liver and the spleen particularly, round here, and the liver and spleen have no outlet in, outside +if they're damaged and they bleed internally, you will see the person as you say going into shock, okay, and there may be eventually, not immediately, bruising and swelling and tenderness round the area, bruising is only internal bleeding showing itself, yes, so what can you do with that person? +Hospital +Before they get to hospital +yes all the treatment for shock, nil by mouth, all the treatment for shock and urgent need of aid, how else might you suspect that there was internal damage and possible bleeding going on? +High blood pressure +Well I'm thinking more of +The patient might tell you +The patient might tell you what if, if the casualty was still able to talk, they might be able to give you the history of how they became like they were, received a blow, got kicked, fell onto something hard, okay and so on and so on, they might be able to tell you themselves, give some indication, right, you would remove and loosen off all tight clothing, okay, loosen off the clothing for them and then treat them for shock and then refer them to urgent medical attention, nil by mouth on any account, okay? +Any questions? +Just one point, you said er passing water through the ur er blood through the urine is two things er +It could be the bladder +it could be the bladder or what? +It could be the kidneys okay are there any questions there, is there anything that you want to ask? +No don't forget again all the things that you recognize from somebody who was suffering from shock right don't forget how we treat them okay and we'll run a film for you now erm, no perhaps we won't we'll deal with the severe bleeding on the palm of the hand and get that out of the way +Yes, okay +we'll show you now how to put on a pressure bandage for severe bleeding and then we'll put the film on and you can see the whole lot again, okay, so just be in the room if you just push and push and push on the window and er the hand has gone through the window, right, and there's no glass imbedded but it's cut right across the palm and the reason that we show you this one is because the artery that feeds all these fingers comes and the thumb comes up in an arch like that okay, so the artery comes down, up in an arch across the palm of the hand, so the fingers and thumb all get a blood supply, so when you cut the palm of your hand there is a lot of blood pumping out, okay, so what's the first thing I'd tell her to do? +Elevate +Yeah, what else could she do? +Put her hand on top +Pressure on +Have I touched her blood at all? +No +And I have not, and I wouldn't want to unless she was in such a condition, can you manage to sit there like that for a moment while I'll manage to go and get a pad? +You okay at the moment? +So then I'll need to go and get my pads and my bandages so that I can put this right, you'll need two of these for this bandage, the first one, you open out so that the pad is going to go into the palm of her hand and that over the top and she is going to grab hold of the other one like that, okay, now we've got the wad in there and she's hanging on to it, but it was the sterile part of the bandage as I undid it that went on to the wound, there is no time for dressing here is there? +No, okay so now we're going to actually put this bandage, sorry have I got that round the right way? +No think it goes round the bottom +No, haven't, sorry +thank you, now we're going to bind this up, you take the long edge, sorry that goes down the long edge comes first of all over the two fingers and round the base of the thumb +Excuse me, we can't see +Can I, can we ask you to, can I move you forward, forward, that way or would you like to stand up, stand up and come round +Perhaps if you would like to go round the +come round yeah +Stand at the back or something +yeah, come round and have a look if you want to, come and stand up here close if you want to +okay, round the base of your thumb, basically what we want to do is we want to clamp these fingers in so they can't come un unstuck, we want to push them together because she can't keep them shut like that, but the next thing is that you come round to the back where the little finger is, the next time you come round here, you're gonna come round to about the first thumb joint okay and then you're gonna go over the top okay and if you come round again the little thumb, by, by the little finger, you come round again to the thumb joint okay, come over the top again, round, we're just making really like the figure of eight, but all the time we're keeping off of this wrist here and I'm keeping her fingers in, are you alright still? +Yes +Yes, okay and we're still coming round yet again and the last one cos she's got quite a large fist, I'll take it over the top, round the back and this one now I can tie, tie it off, sorry tie it off on the back of her hand now, I don't want to tie it off on the front cos in a minute I want to put this into a sling not too tight? +How are your fingers? +Alright +I've left one thing showing, this if you, you'd got, you tuck it in at the top there if you've got some room, right, I've left her thumb out, so that if this is too tight I can check the circulation, if the pink comes back it's okay, can you get your fingers out? +No they're all tucked well in, now she needs it still to be up here, right, so what's the best thing that we can do to make sure it stays up in the high position? +High sling +A high sling, now we can put on a high sling for her, okay, that goes up there and now, are you still alright? +Still okay? +We're just gonna put a sling on for you, and if the blood comes pumping through that what will I do? +Put another one on +A bigger pad over the top, there's the sling and towards your casualty and place it on the body down the straight and the elbow and the point at the same side, tuck this hand under and tuck all this underneath the arm and bring the rest of it round the back, tie it up as close to the fingers as you can and try to remember how to do a reef knot, at least always make sure it's firm, is that alright for you? +Comfortable and firm? +Once you've done the knot put the ends out of the way, straight away and then last of all just finish off this corner here, if you've got too much material okay, tuck it out of the way, you don't want it dangling there out the way and how does this one go? + +Come in. +Hello. +Oh. +Now then. +What's the trouble today? +Oh. +The whole family I'm afraid but er +Out of the way. +Out of the way. +Sit over there by the . +That stomach of hers is causing her er diarrhoea and sickness +right. +and erm she's had it for a couple of days but we thought she was getting over it this morning. +Basically she's been giving her Diarralite +And now she's I mean she's +She can't even keep water down Doctor so she's certainly not gonna keep that down. +Right. +Cos she's had it since Wednesday. +What the Doctor. +Hello. +hello? +the Doctor. +Has your dad not been +She's +well either? +No. +But I recover quickly that's all. +I've had it bad. +I've got out me bed to come up here. +Mm. +Right. +Let's have a look at your tummy to see what you've poor +old tummy. +She's very erm +fractious. +I think she's . +You're alright darling. +When er just before she's sick +It's pains in her stomach. +She's I mean obviously er erm I mean she's com complaining of a sore tummy. +She's able to but +But she's not had the diarrhoea and I have. +Oh no. +Thank goodness. +Well I didn't get diarrhoea with it I just got sickness. +She's gonna get the diarrhoea. +Really? +Yeah. +She's sore round here. +She screams when she's sick. +Mm. +I know the feeling. +Mm. +She's . +yeah but she's, she's going to, she's gonna have diarrhoea because you can feel +Mm. +I think that's what wrong. +She's not been. +and nothing, nothing coming through. +Right. +Oh. +Er she can't keep the Diarralite down? +She's not keeping anything down. +Right. +Mm. +She's what a year and a half now? +She's just under two Doctor. +She's just t coming up two . +How long's this gonna last? +This? +Not much longer. +Now do you have any er ice lollies? +No. +Any ice-cream? +Yeah we have. +Yeah. +Yeah. +Right. +Teaspoonful of ice-cream and just p have you any, anything that y you can dip it in? +Yeah. +And just dip it in and let her suck it. +Don't let her take any great amount of it. +Just a little with her tongue. +Mhm. +Just to give her stomach something to work on +Mhm. +Yeah. +without overloading it cos +Mm. +if you overload it, you'll get it all back. +Mm. +Yeah. +A small amount table jelly ice-cream, ice lolly. +Anything like that . +Anything like that. +Mhm. +Yeah. +Anything you can break up, and just give +Aye. +her a very small amount. +Same with yourself. +Just a very very small amount. +Just take it just let it melt in your mouth. +You don't, don't need to take i enough to have a mouthful or anything. +Mhm. +Just a, don't go buying Lucozade, don't go buying +Mm. +anything like that. +Mm. +Cos it won't make any difference. +There's nothing +in there that there isn't in straight lemonade. +Yeah. +Mhm. +Right. +Er every now and again a wee sugar cube. +Open her mouth and just let her suck it. +Give her a bit of energy. +Yeah. +Build up her strength. +Build up her strength. +But just anything cold anything goes down very easily. +Aha. +Just take it they don't have any problem with it. +Yeah. +a small teaspoonful of this stuff +Yeah. +just in the corner of her mouth. +Don't force it down, just in the corner of her mouth. +She'll swallow that down nice and gently and it'll coat her tummy and it will gradually work its way through into the bowel and quieten them down as well. +Is this the medicine you're giving her? +Yes. +Yes. +Ju as long as you don't overload her. +This is +Aha. +this is the one thing that +her system can't stand. +It's when they retch er +That's right. +They try to empty what it is in their stomach and it +Right. +just comes out. +That's what I was doing last night. +Yeah. +Well just out to the shop and get some ice-cream or make a table jelly when you go home. +Mhm. +And just have a little of it every half hour? +Every hour? +If you feel like it. +Aha. +It doesn't matter what the flavour is whether it's strawberry, orange anything. +Okay. +Er quite a good thing is this er sorbet stuff. +Yeah. +Mhm. +It's nice is that. +It has a tang, so that youngsters particularly, quite, quite like the taste of it because they don't taste anything all their taste buds +Mm. +if you look at her tongue. +Pure white. +Mm. +Her taste buds are all covered. +Can't taste anything. +Yeah. +But if you can get them with just a, an orange or a lemon sorbet. +Just a wee drop of that instead of the ice-cream +Mhm. +they can taste it. +Mhm. +Yeah. +She hasn't been eating and that's unusual +No. +for her. +No. +Aye. +No. +They they +they don't . +this, this, this bug we've got it's causing the pains? +Yes. +Oh aye. +Gives, gives her the cramps all the way across here. +Yeah. +All the way across here. +That's it. +Yeah. +Mhm. +that's why there's two or three minutes and then sick. +Aye. +That's what I had last +Or we have diarrhoea. +night. +Yeah. +Yeah. +Aye. +We either have, we either have sickness or we have diarrhoea or . +I had both. +Yeah.. +Well I'm, I'm the only one actually. +I've had both. +Yeah. +Aye. +We maybe jus just haven't got it severe cos you've just had that operation . +I've just come out of hospital. +What have you been doing? +I had a prolapse bad. +So the retching was worrying me a bit. +Well +Cos I've still got stitches. +You get started on, on the ice-cream and the +I was just coming up to Scotland for a holiday . +I'm not coming here any more. +What with the weather and this I'm going home +again. +I'll tell you the weather down south is just as bad. +I know. +We left it didn't we? +Right. +And +I was listening to the radio when I was out in the car this morning and it's coming down +Same over it's just coming across the country isn't it? +It is. +If she gets any worse Doctor? +No she won't. +No. +No problem. +You think it's this bug? +No problem. +Yeah. +Aye. +And if you give her, just stick her to small amounts for the next couple of days +Yeah. +and +Okay. +Yeah. +Don't, don't force her that's the big secret +Yeah. +because if you force them at all,it doesn't work . +Thanks very much Doctor. +There's that. +Right. +Thank you very much. +You'd best carry her then Pete. +No problem. +Thank you. +Bye bye. +Bye bye. +Bye bye. +she's +Bye. +Thanks a lot. +Okay. +Bye. +Bye now. + +Scottish women have spent a great deal of time discussing the pros and cons of being an older women, but what's it like being young in Scotland in nineteen ninety two? +Everyone here was born after nineteen sixty eight, the year of revolution according to someone. +The sixties were in full swing and we all lived, whether we like it or not, in a permissive society. +So here we are, the children of the revolution, what do they think of the world, of the Scotland that they live in? +That's what we'll discover tonight, and let's start with a question, a pretty straightforward one. +Are you enjoying life at the moment? +Button one for yes, and button two for no. +And, the majority, eighty three say yes! +Why? +Who said yes, and what are enjoying about it? +Yes? +That fact that in,a two years time I can go on to do the subjects that I want to do at the University in Scotland of my choice. +I will be able to do what and, law which is what I want, and I'll be able to practice it in Scotland erm, which is something that I think's really, really good! +Okay. +Any more yes's? +Why? +Why are you enjoying life? +Or are they all private reasons? +Yes? +No, I've got another couple of years and then I'll be able to do what I like, when I like, with no parents on my back! +Do you know, what about the no's? +Who said no? +Why aren't you enjoying life? +Yep? +I still don't think there's enough sexual equality because erm, a couple of years ago I studied mechanics, and when I left college I found it very, very difficult to get on a mechanics course so I'm back again doing computing to try and get a job. +Would you prefer to be a mechanic? +Yeah, I would have in the first place, but it was just impossible! +You know, nobody wants to take on a girl! +Seriously? +Yeah, honestly! +What about the computing? +I mean, is that gonna be easier? +Oh I like ,yeah, I like ma , you know computing but I would, I preferred mechanics. +Yeah. +What about th er, gender equality? +I mean, er er has anybody else had a similar experience? +I think it's actually got better. +I'm a second year civil engineering student +Mhm. +at the moment, and I think I would be some people would not have let me do that, I think, in the past +Mhm. +but at the moment most of the people I know are saying, go for it! +Mm. +But do you think you'll get a job as a civil engineer at the end of it? +Yeah! +Yeah. +Yes? +I was doing veterinary for two years and I wrote away to companies but they just weren't all that keen to ge give girls a chance. +Is that a common experience? +Yes? +I'm actually a journalist, erm +Mm. +I work in a newspaper that used to be male dominated and now I would say three quarters of the wo , three quarters of the people on the news desk are now women. +Erm, doors are opening, slowly , +Mm. +but they are opening for women now. +What difference do you think it makes that three quarters of the news desk are women? +Well it makes, it makes a difference in the content, it makes a difference in the topics that we cover, that we're interested in. +Erm, women don't just want to write about knitting, erm +baking which +Yeah. +one journalist, one famous Scottish journalist told me when I wo , when I, when I had ambitions to be a journalists, oh don't go into journalism because you're a women and all you'll get to write about is fashion! +Mm. +But that is not the case, it's not the case. +Do you think readers notice the difference? +Yes. +Aha, I do. +We +Why? +I mean we get enough letters about the, the, the pieces that our women write. +Yeah. +Up there. +Well I'm doing a one year course for drama and media performance and +Yeah. +like years gone past it's always been male dominated but this year, there's actually more girls taking it up. +None of these males and, I found like, the tutor, he's a male, and he is really bad about females being actors! +He, he picks on us to say how determined we are to actually go into the profession because he knows that er, although there are more parts for females there it's harder for somebody to stand out. +Mm. +Mm. +So although th th the equality of opportunity may be there the attitudes maybe haven't changed that much, or have they? +What do you think? +Yes? +Well I think if you look at the main jobs in Britain, all the managers are male, and I think it's, it's gonna change when we do have females and males in all these erm, these jobs that are managing the main N H S, social work +Mm. +all things like that. +Yes? +Erm sorry, just to come back, er I work for an amateur theatre company +Yep. +and really, I mean you know, you can talk about male, female bias as much as you like but there's an awful of actresses, and not, you know, a lot fewer actors and a lot better parts for men. +And it's something which is difficult to cope with, but I work in a kind of environment where it just is sexually biased, that's the way it goes! +It's not something that can be changed, like maybe management but erm it's it's just that, you know, to be careful, that if you're doing these things, there's some things which, I think women can do, and a lot of things that women should be doing, maybe there's other things which just aren't there for them just now. +The thing we've all got to concentrate on, is the opportunity should be there, and they should be there for us +Mm. +to do it, and it starts a lot earlier, it starts when you're at school and the fact that that women are told that you can do, like home economics an , and sewing and all that, and then they're not encouraged to go into engineering courses. +And if that's gonna happen then how are women gonna be able to get on into higher education +Mm. +and how are they gonna be able to get the jobs? +The equality of opportunity and equal pay for work of equal value and all those things are are are are issues which er have been fought over for the last twenty years. +Now can I ask a self-indulgent question, I mean, how well do you think the women, ten, and twenty, and thirty years older than you have done in, in achieving a better deal for women your age? +Up there? +Well I was given a really big chance a while ago, it was by a single parent who was an editor of the community newspaper, I'm now the business and production manager, I'm a single parent, my wee boy's three. +She lets me take time off, I mean she's really understanding. +Yeah. +I think that's what we need is more understanding bosses. +But it was a women helping you? +Mhm. +That's a now I've had that experience. +May I ask you a, a voting question actually on that? +I wonder what you think? +Do you think at the moment women have equal opportunities in Scotland? +Do women have equal opportunities in Scotland? +Button one for yes, and button two for no. +And you'd be interested to know that eighty one of you say no! +The nineteen who said yes, where are you and why did you vote yes, there? +Who said yes? +Yes? +I don't think I've ever come up against sexism, except from in the classroom when the teacher to, the economics teacher tries to wind us up by saying women would should be chained to the kitchen sink! +But otherwise +I've had all the opportunities I would want. +Okay. +Any other yes's? +Or do you think she's got something to to find out later on? +Yes? +I think there's always exceptions, but I think you've got to believe in yourself and go and do what you want to do and if you're saying there's opposition, there's gonna be more opposition, if +Mm. +you've seen it there. +Mhm. +I know there is exceptions. +So it's not that you couldn't fe it's, it was it was actually you who weren't able to find the thing, rather than the thing wasn't available for you, that's the suggestion? +No because , I applied for a lot of jobs +Yep. +and I was better qualified than a lot of guys in my class and yet they left college and got a job right away! +And, I applied for loads of jobs and nothing ever came back. +Okay. +Let me ask you another question, or looking, looking towards the future. +Do you know what you're going to be doing in five years time? +Button one for yes, and button two for no. +And thirty five of you say yes, sixty five no. +The sixty five who said no does it worry you that you don't know or is that quite exciting that you don't know what you're going to be doing? +Yes? +I think, as a student I don't know what I'm gonna do and with the present erm grant system and bursary system it's it's even more frightening because es especially towards women, it does discriminate against women and that's why less women are going into higher education +Mm. +or further education. +And with the whole child care side of things as well, it is frightening! +As a, as a student are you managing to cope with er, very limited finances or +Well, I'm the women's officer in my college and I +Right. +this is what I'm fighting for, I'm fighting for equal rights, and I'm fighting to get more women into further education cos I think it's it's a very basic that we all need to go into and it's hard, and the openings aren't there women to go into, you've got to fight for it, yeah! +Yeah. +Erm, my mother calls me the eternal student because I tell her that there's absolutely no way I'm gonna look for full time employment! +But, now that, I mean I'm in the second year of being a student, and I took on the position of women's officer for the we , for the west of Scotland area +Mhm. +and I just don't want to move out of being a student because I find that, that more and more problems are, you know I'm coming up with because, like Melanie saying there is problems with child care, there is erm positive discrimination against women, and we are always discriminated on the sexual harassment in the college is unbelievable and we have to campaign against this and that's what's gonna keep me being a student. +Might be useful to find out how many here actually do have children. +Do you have children? +Button one for yes, and button two for no. +And, of this hundred fourteen of you have children. +Now, you may vote in fo on this question as well, do you have or want children? +Button one for yes, er and button two for no. +So if you've got children vote yes on that one, if you want children. +And, of this hundred three don't knows, that seems reasonable. +Seventy six say yes! +That's something to be sure of, I don't think I was sure. +Twenty one say no and that's something to be sure of as well. +How do you know that you don't you twenty one who said no? +Yes? +I don't like children! +I don't get on with them! +I just don't get on with them. +I can't talk to them or anything so +You. +I don't want to be tied, I want to leave my options free so that I can do whatever I want, I don't need the extra responsibility, I mean I'd like them but I just, I want my career first. +Mhm. +Of the yes's, and that's majority, the seventy six when? +When do you fancy doing it? +Yes? +Er, the next seven years or after that probably . +Not, so not till you're what? +Thirty odd? +Well, I'm only nineteen just now ! +Ah but +About twenty five, twenty six I think I'll +Yeah. +sort of think about it then. +Yep? +Na , I mean answered a yes to that question, but I don't think it's a matter of do you want or do you no , cos I don't think the choice is there. +I think we have to be freed up to have the choice to bring children into a society where that we can go to work, that we can do , you know fulfilling +Mhm. +experiences and daycare and you know, even in er child care and so on. +I think, while I say that I want children, and do I have a child, that i , it's not made particularly easy. +Mm. +You have a job and you do the things that kin a er, inspire you to go on, you know, you know with er any other opportunity. +Up there. +I have got two children and I'm hoping to go to college when my youngest daughter is three cos I can't get her, can't go until she is three cos the creche won't take them until they're out of nappies and three year old. +Yeah. +But I'm desperate to go to college, I mean I love my kids and my kids get everything they need, but I can't go, it's holding me back, I can't get my two into the creche. +Do you think young men think at all about looking after children or or or child care? +I mean i in your experience is it something that you talk about at all with with with men? +Yes? +When I done a Y T S course +Yep. +like most of the the child care was done by the girls, but there was actually a few of the boys that decided they wanted to work in the nurseries and o eh the five that done, there's actually two that we know of a are actually doing child care as a career. +Really? +Yes. +Now, that is a change! +And I +Yeah. +no man of my age who er, who who are doing child care or anything similar. +Any other er any other views on this? +Yes? +My boyfriend said he would stay at home and be the househusband and look after the children and do co co , the cleaning and cooking if I stayed at work. +Does that appeal to you? +No. +I'd be quite happy to go to work if erm if I had a good job and my boyfriend stayed at home, that'd suit me fine! +If I could go out to work and leave the child and and do what I wanted to do, I'd be quite happy with that. +Is anybody living in that situation at the moment? +Are there are any er, there any, yes? +No, I just started a part-time job and my boyfriend's , come and watch them and he's helping me cleaning the house and everything's clean when I come home. +We just started last week on this like that. +What one week in? +Well, it's every night but it's just a couple of hours a night. +Yeah, but I mean you're one week into the regime? +Yeah. +Yeah. +How's he doing? +Good ! +Good, which Yep? +Yep? +Er, I'm a first year primary school stu +Mm. +student and I've actually come across books now, that erm don't say the mother cleans the house, it's always a father. +There is lots of books that I've got, either the father or the brother cleaning, and it's not just the mother and the daughter. +Yeah I I what I'm a bit worried about is whether it's come to the stage where girls are now scared to put their name down to take home economics at school. +Because? +Because there's like th , the male dominated, like a male dominated in the class +it might never come to that stage. +Up there. +The thing is er, you can end up feeling like a bit of a, a failure, almost like a traitor to womankind if you do take courses that are traditionally female. +Mm. +Well I can remember whe when I was at school, physics and maths were clever subjects, they were male subjects. +When er, the headmaster when he was reading out the the subjects that people were taking for highers, and one girl was doing physics, maths and further maths, he said oh, one of our cleverer girls! +So the rest of us who were doing arts or humanities or whatever, weren't as clever because she was doing +Mm. +the male subject. +Mm. +And I just think that that's the real danger. +Can I sa , I'll ask another question tha , since we're talking about erm er, advances er which at one time came under the general heading, feminism, would you call yourself a feminist? +Button one for yes, and button two for no. +And four aren't sure forty of you say yes, but the majority, fifty six say no! +Now, that's interesting! +Of the forty who said yes, what do you mean by that when you say you're a feminist? +Yes? +I think there's still a need for feminism today, there we +How? +there were moves made in the sixties but I'm sure that the process is ongoing and we still +Mm. +need we still need feminists today. +Mm. +Yes? +Now some , somebody famous once said erm, I'm called a feminist because I say things that is, to distinguish myself from a doormat. +And I think +and the a the idea of of erm the butch woman in dungarees, as being the feminist, erm and the women that burnt her bra or whatever was a feminist of the seventies, but it doesn't mean to say that the ideas aren't still there, and I still want to be treated as an equal, but I do , I don't see that I should change the way that I dress or the way that that I want to act +Mhm. +because of that it's my ideals. +Mm. +Audrey? +I think it's possible that a lot of the women here are saying no because of the stigma that's attached to the word feminist feminism. +The words the , I mean it has always been stigmatized by men, lesbians,and, you know everything +Mhm. +else, and I think that people have to got sort of clarify what feminism is, and what sort of what aspects of it they want to take on. +There. +Erm, I'd like to say Sheena that I, I think it was a difficult question that you asked, are you a feminist? +Cos it's it's puts it do , I know you were saying about it's difficult to answer yes or no to a question but i in this case it's really true because I answered no but I've I've got erm I mean I've I've got a degree in politics and I studied er, I did a a course women in politics +Mm. +and I've re I have quite a high awareness about women's position in society, but because of that I feel that I've now come to reject the term feminism because erm I think it's also harming the people who, you know, it's harming the women that are holding on to that er, label because it is label and that is erm because it's, because it's a label it then it's blocking er forms progress for women. +And er I think, I I agree, I agree with a lot of the demands that feminist women have made but, to kind of congregate it in that way, it's bu , I mean a lot of wha er, white feminists have been attacked for excluding black women, and that's one of the examples where you know, to be, to say that you're a feminist, it's not just men that you're alienating, you're also alienating other way. +How interesting! +Yes? +I think feminism was something that was very necessary from, from the last generation and we're now standing on the +Mm. +shoulders of the last generation +Mhm. +but we need to make a lot of changes with this concept of feminism. +And, and really erm, develop something new, something that's going to be more equal, something that won't discriminate against men and something that er, that isn't associated with with some more ridiculous aspects of +Mhm. +of the things that have been associated with feminism. +So is it, is it as much the word as the philosophy? +I mean, you suggested the philosophy, you suggested that the term has become devalued because of unfortunate associations which may have been imposed by, by men. +I think it is as much that the word is a philosophy, but I don't think we should throw it out of the window altogether, like I say, it's a foundation, it's our our foundation stone. +History. +Yes? +I have a certain degree of sympathy for men because I think you have to take into consideration that men aren't given enough opportunity to feel se , er sympathetic, maybe again is the wrong word +Mhm. +but to feel sorry for women and put their view forward because, I mean, you still the situation of a Friday when men go down to the pub and you know they're all Jack the Lad! +Men are frightened to put forward their opinion. +I mean, if a man cries he's considered a wimp! +It's erm, even back to school, I mean boys wear blue, girls wear pink, if you see a boy with pink i , you know he's classed as cissy, er, cissy or wimp things like that. +I don't think men are given enough room to express their emotions and feelings about things. +Up there. +I think it's men that use feminism, or feminist in a derogatory term +Mm. +and it shouldn't be. +It's something I'm very proud to say that I am, cos I believe in equal rights and that's what feminism is, is believing in equal rights for women. +I mean, I think every women sho , here should be proud to say they're a feminist if they believe in equal rights for theirself , and it's only men that use in the derogatory way. +Mhm. +Yes? +Erm what I wanted to say is, erm, in response to the lady in the red, was that a lot of feminists have a lot to answer for because, in the sense, men erm can be discriminat , well not discriminated but we can say things about men which are generalizations, whereas if a, one man says one generalized thing about a woman, then he's just, you know chauvinists is everything, and he's got a really bad name to him, so I think it's got to be looked at from both sides. +I mean, I'm definitely a feminist, but I'm not a man hater, but I mean I think everyone's looking for the new term and +Mm. +exactly as Alice said, the new term is womenist, not feminist. +And,a a I mean I think we have, you know, to be feminists because we don't want to be better than men, we just want to be equal. +Mhm. +Wanna be a person then! +I I think erm +this is a good word because it well it's not because of the associations but it stresses the femininity and that's what a lot of the sixties feminists lost, I think was their own femininity because they saw it as man's imposition +Mm. +of femininity onto them. +I think it's far too early to give up the term feminist. +I think, we've still got so much to do, to to get to equality it's too early to give it up. +And I know it's important to be equal in careers and to have equal opportunities and I'm not arguing against that, but I also think that perhaps, in doing so some women also lose the pride in being a woman, and e equality isn't being a man, which I think some feminists take that view, that they're not equal to a man unless they're earning money. +But that staying at home and looking after the children, or whatever and bringing up a family is just as valuable as a job, or a career. +Mhm. +Erm, I don't think equality is being a man, I have no desire to be a man. +Erm, but we've talked a lot about erm labels being +Mm. +negative and excluding people, but I also think that labels can be very, very positive and very, very important and that's, I think that's why erm, people thought up the word feminism and yeah, okay we have to think about the word and we have to think about what it means for us so yeah, a lot of pe , er people don't want to call themselves feminists because the label has such negative connotations, but it does also mean very positive things, it's a way of bringing people together, it's a way of supporting each other, it's, you know it's, brings solidarity to the movement and people need labels. +I thi , because the society does want to categorise people so easily and so quickly erm, it's it's a very, erm easy, quick way of erm, knowing where stand. +Yeah, I think it's important like in the nineties that we're facing, not like the the legal inequalities that we're, the, faced, the generation, the sixties but we're facing attitudes that are not +Mm. +changing. +We've now got sexual equality in theory, and pay, and jobs and status and stuff, but we're facing attitudes which are much more harder to change. +We've talked quite a bit about the, I suppose th th th the women's side of er, of this programme's title, what about the Scottish side? +Right at the beginning someone said they were enjoying life at the moment because they were able to do what they wanted to do in Scotland. +Now, I wonder how many of you, er are expecting to stay in Scotland? +Let me ask you that question. +Do you hope to stay in Scotland? +I mean, with forays abroad, I dare say, but would you expect the rest of life to be spent in Scotland, or based in Scotland? +And those same three people keep abstaining, it's amazing! +Sixty two say yes, thirty five no. +Of the no's, would you like to say why you voted no? +Yes? +Basically because the weather's terrible here and I'd like to move abroad ! +So you're gonna be heading for the sun? +Yeah. +Spain ! +Yeah. +Okay, any other? +Er, yes? +I have a strong interest in languages, and although now we are trying to teach more languages in school, even in primary schooling, I don't feel that within er my, I'm only eighteen at the moment, by the time I'm twenty five things still won't have came far enough along for me to utilize this skill. +I would probably end working in Europe as well +Mhm. +because there's no job opportunities over here, it's a lovely country but it's simply because of the work factor. +So you'll be a civil engineer abroad? +Yeah ! +Right. +Well of course there's a great tradition of Scots leaving Scotland and and maybe there's nothing wrong with that, I mean, there's there's no shame in leaving is there? +I mean, of those of you who want to stay, the sixty fi , the sixty two er wha , why do you want to stay? +I love Scotland and I wouldn't leave. +Par partly because I'd get homesick, and I just love the whole of Scotland! +I mean, I could go from anywhere,Lowerick down to the borders and I'd I'd be, I'd feel at home, but I wouldn't feel I mean, I went down to England for something like four days, and like from Berwick,ma , about it must be about ten miles from Berwick to the Scottish, the Scotland thing and I was a craning my head out the bus window to see it! +I was, I just love Scotland so much! +Yes? +I feel a sense of loyalty, that after erm the education department has paid four years for me to +Mhm. +learn my trade that I ought to stay here and put something back into the industry again. +What's your trade? +Erm, I'm in government manufacturing. +Right. +And, I'd like to stay up here and sort of keep the industry going. +Yes? +That's a very important point! +It's sad to see that so many people feel that they have to move away. +And job situation maybe is that, but I think we should stay here and fight, and demand that we have the industries up here so that people from Scotland can stay and better, better theirselves here rather than move away. +Mhm. +So far I've really enjoyed my life well no major complaints anyway, and so I'd like to bring my children up here enjoying their life as well. +Mhm. +Stu , I mean I live in Glasgow, the chances of me leaving Glasgow are pro ,pre pretty slim but yeah, I certainly don't want to stay in Scotland because of any loyalty, that I don't think it's given me very much other than a lot of experience, a lot of struggle, a lot of opportunities to stand alongside working class people and fight against, you know, the injustices. +But I think I'll stay here but I see myself as a internationalist as well. +I think that the money that is actually getting put into Scotland in tourism, I mean I come from Sterling and +Aha. +it's, Sterling is gonna be quite, really good in the future for jobs and for everything. +Erm, I just love Sco Scotland, I think it's got a lot to offer, it's beautiful place! +I don't think I would leave Scotland within the the near future because I love Iron Bru too much, and I wouldn't get in some other places or +Yes? +Well, I know there are like, problems for women, they're discriminated against, but I think if you've got the drive and the motivation I think you can overcome these problems. +Mm. +Ah, hands always go up when I'm about to finish the programme and you've been so +I'll give you a er, just a couple. +Yes? +It's actually women of our age group that has gotta take the responsibility for to make changes, so that women in the next generation have got that opportunity that we did nah have till now and that's the whole point of it. +Aha. +I was just gonna say, we've been talking about equality a lot tonight +Mm. +and although things may not be brilliant for, in the workplace at the moment, but we're we're making a move, we're getting a, a foot in there. +In years to come they're gonna be the managers so hopefully we can make it better for someone else. +A great positive note on which to end, and so we must I'm afraid. +Thank you very much indeed! +Thank you for joining us. +Goodbye. + +with Mr but what I thought I'd do today is see how much you've remembered of one or two of the basic topics. +So topic I want to start off today with is iron and steel. +Who can remember what four things which four things go into a blast furnace? +Let's have one of them from somebody. +Copper. +Copper. +We're trying to make iron and steel Edwin. +Oh. +Oh right yes, I knew that. +You knew that. +Good. +Okay. +So what four things? +There's four things that go into a blast furnace. +Come on you've done this. +Zinc. +N not zinc if we're trying to make iron . +Iron. +Should be iron or steel. +Iron what? +Ore. +Iron ore. +Right. +Ha hallelujah, we're getting somewhere. +Right iron ore. +most of the iron ore is used ir in the form of iron what? +Somebody said it actually. +Oxide. +Oxide, right. +And they're iron oxides. +Right there are two iron oxides commonly used in the blast furnace, one of which is named because of its colour Excuse me a moment. +Er right as I was saying there's two iron oxides one named because of its colour and the other one named because of its properties. +Anybody remember what they are? +Simon. +. +No I think invoking the deity is not going to help you here. +I'll give you a further clue. +One of them is because of its blood red colour. +. +What's Yes. +What's the name of the department in a hospital that deals with blood? +The blood bank. +The blood bank. +No. +No. +. +. +That's where they store it not where they er play about with it. +Transfusions +Begins with H. +H. +Hospital. +Hospital blood bank . +. +H A E. +Hae +Mm. +A E A A E +. +A E +. +Haematology. +Haematite. +Haematite. +Haematology is the department that deals with blood and the red colouring in the blood is haemoglobin. +Edwin. +Sir is it erm are they the people who tell you what erm group your blood is? +Yes, basically. +And the way they do that is they take a sample of your blood and mix it with er agents taking taken from the blood of other people. +Ugh. +So for example when I've given a pint of blood instead of giving it into a plastic bag with sodium citrate to stop it clotting I've actually given into a plain glass bottle and when I asked what this for the erm transfusion nurse said that they're going to let the red cells all clot together at the bottom and use the serum that was left for blood grouping purposes which of course is very important. +So when they're actually blood grouping they're using human blood serum to er test which group you belong to. +So haematology because of haemoglobin the red colouring of the erm red cells that carry the oxygen around the body and haemoglobin contains iron which is why when people are short of iron they suffer from anaemia because they've got en not enough of this red colouring in their blood cells to carry the oxygen around the body. +Haematite is F E 2 0 3. +Iron three oxide. +iron three oxide. +The other one I n said named because of its property is called magnetite. +Okay? +So what's the property of magnetite that makes it interesting? +It's magnetic. +Right. +. +And it's believed that magnetite in its er one of its forms lodestone was er the earliest form of compass. +You had this lump of rock that you dangled from a thread and people discovered that it always pointed in the same direction, so if you were on board, a ship for the first time people were able to travel in a ship without having to hug a coast all the way across or navigate to where they could see. +Er the I know this is basically not iron and steel but if you take the Mediterranean er very loosely +. +That's Italy and er the home of the Mafia, there's Greece and Turkey and so on and you come back round again, there's the Straits of Gibraltar. +In the early days of er navigation within the Mediterranean people used to actually have to navigate by going all the way round the coast. +. +So if you wanted to go from there to there you went all round that way. +The reason being that you had to navigate where you could see. +And in the Bible it's recorded that for example there are some cases where there was a big storm and they lost sight of land and all the sailors er promptly panicked because once they'd lost sight of land they hadn't got a clue where they were. +But with a lodestone compass which was er magnetic iron oxide hung up on the ship, you could actually then work out that you go straight across from there to there no problems. +And it then made possible going by the shortest route. +So magnetite is a very important iron oxide. +Where do we get our iron ore from these days? +. +Well you're telling me other countries. +In other words we import it. +Why do we import it? +Cheaper. +It's cheaper, yes. +And why is it cheaper? +What's happened to the iron ore in Britain? +. +It's gone rusty . +Finished. +It's gone rusty. +No. +Er it's +Yeah. +finished. +It's finished. +Yes +. +It's run out. +Right. +The two main areas that I'm thinking of are in Northamptonshire where the iron ore works there have been completely exhausted and the other is Consett in County Durham. +And if you go to Consett from Nottingham,you +? +Consett. +C erm C O N S E double T I think it is. +. +If you go to Consett in County Durham you come along the road and there's the town and what was left of the old steel works because the steel works was built there because of its easy access to the iron ore deposits. +And you come over this hill and suddenly there's nothing on the other side except a huge hole in the ground, and the road goes along almost a cliff edge the side of this erm hole which is this worked out iron ore quarry. +It completely all the iron ore deposits there er have gone. +So we import our iron ore from other countries. +For example Australia produces quite a lot, Sweden produces a lot, and it's imported into this country in bulk ore carriers. +So we've got iron ore obviously from which we get the iron. +Three other things to go into the blast furnace? +Me? +Anybody. +Iron ore is one. +What's the fuel? +Erm . +Right, begins with that letter, yes. +. +coal? +coke. +No it's con +Coke? +Coke. +Right. +Obviously +. +coal is converted into coke. +. +. +No it's not cocaine. +Oh. +All right then. +You're confusing the slang for cocaine with coke. +Coke in the terms in which we're talking about it is Er it's not that soft drink either. +It's actually a black porous substance made by heating coal in the absence of air, and consists of virtually pure carbon. +The er coke is produced from the coal and the coal gas that's driven off is then used for heating and powering things elsewhere in the steel works. +So we have two things, we've got iron ore, coke. +Now for that coke to burn in this furnace what must we add? +Heat? +. +Heat, yes. +I'll give you a clue. +It's the sort of thing you might collect from the House of Commons particularly during a er big debate. +Producing lots of +. +. +Possibly but er that's +. +not quite what I'm thinking of. +Politicians are renowned for producing? +Hot air. +Hot air, right. +. +. +Hot air. +Air obviously makes it burn. +Hot air means that it's burned better. +And the hot air is injected near the bottom of the furnace where the temperature is about fifteen hundred degrees celsius, +Whoa! +which is just a little bit warm. +If you injected cold air you'd actually chill the furnace down a bit. +The reason that you use hot air is to keep that combustion going at a good temperature. +And finally coming from Derbyshire from up the road in Buxton, the biggest quarry and the purest in Europe. +Spring water. +No. +. +Yeah but there is +There is Derbyshire spring water from Buxton yes. +. +. +O +Er excuse me,we got the answer right? +Spring water in a blast furnace? +Anyway carry on. +. +Yes, right. +So what is mined in large quantities in Derbyshire? +You saw a video about it. +Limestone. +Limestone, thank you. +Now limestone has a very important function in the blast furnace. +What is that? +What does it make? +Erm lime water? +. +. +. +Four-letter word, +. +used in a er derogatory sense of certain people. +Limestone is used to make? +Come on, think. +Burn. +Burn. +Burn. +Make it burn? +Slag! +Slag! +. +Thank you. +Anybody would think you haven't done this. +Come on. +. +Right. +. +So +. +. +The impurity in iron ore is about one third sand,which is silicon oxide. +Now if you have silicon in your steel it becomes very brittle and useless. +For example if you think of the Vauxhall Cavalier advert where they're crashing these Cavaliers all over the place, if you had a silicone er a silicon-based steel instead of crumpling nicely the steel would actually crack and break. +So basically you have to remove this silicon which was in this impurity. +To do that you need to add limestone which then converts into er calcium oxide in the heat of the blast furnace and then reacts with the sand to form slag. +The equations are as follows. +What's the formula for er limestone? +Simon. +Come on. +. +I don't feel special no more. +. +don't feel special any more Edwin, let's at least +Oh. +get English right. +Even if chewing in class is not allowed in a science lab. +Calcium oxide heated in the blast furnace turns very rapidly to calcium oxide plus carbon dioxide. +. +Which makes erm +Now +C O three. +It's easy. +. +Calcium silicate. +Now calcium silicate is the slag. +What happens in the blast furnace is that the slag is lighter than the molten iron and it collects on top of the molten iron and by some means that I s +scoop off. +But they don't actually scoop it out off from the blast furnace, they drill a hole in the side where they've plugged it with a lump of clay. +Cos they have to keep the blast furnace going don't they. +That's right. +Yeah. +I'm coming to that, good, but that is a very important point. +The tapping from the furnace is done by means of tap holes in the side of the furnace and these are plugged with clay and what happens is one of the workers has a lump of clay on the end of a long metal rod. +He then pushes this clay into the hole and the heat of the furnace means that the clay bakes almost instantaneously blocks the hole and then the furnace can go o carry on working. +And the slag is normally tapped off first. +They then run it into pits, break it up, and use it for road stone or alternatively, the molten slag is run over water-cooled rollers where it forms little tiny pellets with a high air content which are used for making insulation blocks. +But the slag making is an important part of the process. +By the way interestingly enough this is a sort of acid plus base type reaction, where you've got calcium oxide which is a basic oxide,silicon dioxide which is an acidic oxide, and the salt that it makes is calcium silicate. +Let's have a look at the reactions. +The most common ore used in the blast furnace is haematite,so I'm going to restrict my equations to dealing with haematite. +Because that's the one you may be asked in your exam. +F E two O three. +Haematite . +Haem Haematite. +Blood-red colour. +If you rub it in your fingers, you'll find that your fingers are actually stained red by the haematite dust, and it looks just as if you've cut yourself. +Now there are two ways in which iron oxide can be reduced to iron and they depend exactly where you are in the blast furnace. +The first one is by reacting directly with carbon. +When you get iron and carbon monoxide. +That is a high-temperature reaction and tends to happen near the bottom of the furnace. +Nearer the t higher up our reducing agent is carbon monoxide which is formed by partial burning of the coke, and that forms iron again and carbon dioxide. +Now the carbon dioxide formed can react with more carbon to form car more carbon monoxide. +So there's a whole a series of complicated equations that take place at different layers in the furnace and different temperatures, but the end product of of all of these is basically to produce the iron, slag and carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide and nitrogen. +So coming off the top of the furnace we have a mixture of nitrogen, quite a lot of that, carbon monoxide and a bit of carbon dioxide. +Now what do you know about carbon monoxide? +What happens if you react carbon monoxide with oxygen and ignite it? +. +It burns. +Yes. +Have you ever looked at a coke fire?the coke fire has been banked up with only a limited supply of air. +What colour are the flames? +. +Blue. +Yes. +You've seen it, good. +They're blue flames. +Now the blue flames are What's happening is this, there's two reactions taking place in that coke fire. +Down in the heart of the coke the limited supply of air is reacting with the carbon to form carbon monoxide. +You shut the damper doors on the bottom of fire. +This carbon monoxide comes up through the coke and then comes in contact with air at the top of the fire and then burns to give you carbon dioxide. +The carbon monoxide burns with a blue flame. +So there is a fuel. +It's called blast furnace gas. +Blast furnace gas. +Which is harmful. +It is. +Would be if you discharged it into the environment, because of course, carbon monoxide is what? +Poisonous. +Yeah. +Come on to the poisonous nature of carbon monoxide in a minute. +So carbon monoxide is poisonous. +So they don't discharge it, and since it's a fuel anyway they don't want to waste fuel, they use the heat generated from burning this fuel to heat the incoming blast of air. +They do that in brick s stoves called er Cooper stoves. +They've got effectively three of those. +Two of those are being heated by burning blast furnace gas and the third one has the cold air blown through it and the brickwork inside gives up the heat to the er cold air, warms the air and then that's blown into the blast furnace. +Blast furnace gas is what is called a low-grade fuel. +Why is it a low-grade fuel? +Compared with so many things. +Simon? +Er +You looked like you were going to try and answer. +I w Well actually I wasn't but I'll have a go. +Cos it cos it's cheap to make? +No. +No. +Low-grade fuel . +use it? +No. +What are we after when we burn a fuel? +Lots and lots of? +Heat. +Heat. +So a high-grade fuel will give us +Er plenty of heat. +Right. +And a low-grade fuel? +. +Why doesn't that give us a lot of heat? +It doesn't react very well. +Right. +What doesn't react very well out of that lot? +Er carbon . +Carbon. +Well look. +Oxygen. +You've got three things in blast furnace gas. +Nitrogen, carbon monoxide and carbon dioxide. +Which one burns? +Nitrogen. +Carbon monoxide. +The carbon monoxide. +What about the nitrogen and the carbon dioxide? +Do they burn? +No. +No. +So th most of that doesn't burn. +So out of a large quantity of fuel this blast furnace gas, only a little bit will actually burn to give you heat. +But there's still enough to make it worth their while doing it. +Talking about carbon monoxide. +Carbon monoxide poisoning. +How can you deliberately give yourself carbon monoxide poisoning to a mild degree? +Get in a car and put . +. +That that tends to be a little bit permanent. +I was thinking of a slightly less permanent way and one which the Chancellor's made slightly more expensive. +Erm +Cigarettes. +Cigarettes. +Cigarettes. +That's right. +Oh yes of course. +Okay Ashley. +Cigarettes. +The average smoker at any one time has approximately ten percent of their blood out of action with carbon monoxide poisoning. +. +That's why a blood donor if they've given a pint of blood they're told not to smoke afterwards if they're a smoker. +The reason being that having given up ten percent of their blood roughly, er in the blood donation if they then continue to erm smoke afterwards, they they'll knock another ten percent of what's left out. +They may be dropping their oxygen carrying capacity of their blood to a level at which they pass out. +So er that's how people deliberately give themselves carbon monoxide poisoning although perhaps without realizing it. +Simon. +Sir right, you know if you go for a blood transfusion and you're a smoker, how do you know that when you have the transfusion you won't get the ten percent of the blood that's not working properly? +What it is, is that it would be averaged out over the blood as a whole. +And just bear in mind that if you're having a blood transfusion, you could actually be having having the blood of a smoker. +Other things are if the erm person giving +Yeah but wouldn't that get you hooked on smoking? +It wouldn't be enough to get you hooked, no. +But bear in mind that if the person +What if there were plenty of smokers? +If there were? +Plenty of smokers. +It still wouldn't be enough er nicotine to get you addicted to cigarettes. +The addiction takes quite a time to develop. +The erm other side of the coin is if the blood donor has had a liquid lunch And what do I mean by liquid +Boozing . +lunch Fiona ? +. +Boozing. +Right. +If they've been boozing, you could end up with erm enough blood to +. +make you quite er high. +Ooh. +Yeah you you . +. +If you go for a pint at dinnertime you'd Yeah you're driving and you Can't you get done for drink driving? +Yeah. +. +If you needed a blood transfusion er you're not likely to be driving a car straight afterwards. +. +You tend to be rather poorly which is why they've given you the blood transfusion. +But they are extremely careful. +The only things that they don't seem to worry too much about your having taken beforehand are alcohol and smoking, cigarettes. +If you've got carbon monoxide poisoning one of the problems is that your blood can't carry the oxygen because the red blood cells are being put out of action by the carbon monoxide. +You form carbonyl haemoglobin which er doesn't carry oxygen. +How do you treat somebody who's er had carbon monoxide poisoning? +Give them plenty of oxygen. +Right. +Now the problem is with this that the blood as is it won't normally take it up. +So what can be done if you live near er a naval town or North sea support town to actually get that oxygen into the bloodstream? +Oh erm ask them if you can sit in one of those er machines that erm get you out of the bends. +Right. +Absolutely right. +Yes. +Er the h it's called hyperbaric oxygen. +Basically what they do is they stick you in one of these divers' decompression chambers, +Oh yeah . +flood it with oxygen, and you're putting so much oxygen in that the normal mechanism of the oxygen combining with the haemoglobin in the red blood cells is bypassed and the oxygen under high pressure will actually dissolve straight into the bloodstream. +That's how you get the bends because the oxygen nitrogen have dissolved directly into the blood. +So that it's actually the blood itself carrying the oxygen round in solution. +And you keep the person in that condition long enough for the damaged red cells to be replaced. +The only problem is if you don't happen to live near a port which has one of these hyperbaric er diving chambers then you've problems that erm just putting a mask over the person and giving them oxygen that way is normally isn't enough. +It may actually paralyse the person and put them on erm a life-support machine. +footballers sort of when footballers get injuries they go in them to get fit quicker.. +You're right Duncan. +Do you know why? +No. +Well,instead of just saying no, how about taking it through and working it out? +When you're growing new muscle or replacing tissue what is needed? +Apart from the food to supply the proteins to make that muscle, what else? +What do you need all the time? +Oxygen. +Oxygen, right. +Some of that oxygen's used in the processes, together with the proteins to repair damages tissue. +So if you increase the amount of oxygen present, what happens then? +The tissue will heal quicker. +The tissue will heal up quicker. +And that's the way it works. +Another advantage is, and this is another case for being put in one of these hyperbaric oxygen chambers, if you've got erm an anaerobic infection. +Now, anaerobic Excuse me. +. +Think of Jane Fonda and aerobics and I'll come back to you. +Can you be quiet please? +I can't hear on the phone. +Thank you. +.Right folks. +Sorry about that. +Happened yet again. +Erm that was er Steve from the Youth Centre because we've just er told him how much it's going to cost him to use the school premises next year, and he's thrown a dickey fit. +Who? +Good. +The youth leader. +Oh. +Erm because the problem is the school's s now supposed to be making economic charges er which involves caretaker's fees plus heating costs and everything. +Erm and it comes to quite a high figure and he's not happy. +. +Sir school trips? +. +Yeah. +At the moment at the moment I don't know because er I had er one or two problems with organizing that. +But I will leave that with me and I'll come back to you. +Sir could you do something because ages ago you promised to do a chip-pan fire for us. +Yeah! +Yeah Sir I +And you still haven't done one . +Every time you've done +I haven't forgotten the chip-pan fire. +Every time you've done the chip-pan fire I've always missed out. +. +Yeah. +Yes. +I will er demonstrate it again. +That is the the effects on the ceiling are the effects of the last one. +I'm going to be doing one or two more over the next erm few weeks or so. +I will do it for you. +Because then when it's been er finished I'm going to repaint the ceiling to cover up the +. +Well, I'm s sure if you wanted to I could give you the paint and you can do it for me. +. +You'll notice it doesn't. +It doesn't. +. +If you notice the smoke and flames reached somewhere nearly to Duncan's head. +Last time. +. +Which was quite effective. +Back to the blast furnace . +. +We've got our four elements going in, four main components. +We've got coke, iron ore, limestone and hot air. +Hot air is blown in to the furnace. +We've got the blast furnace gas and dust coming off the top, and the dust's removed and the blast furnace gas is used as a fuel. +Coming out at the bottom, comes out what? +At the bottom? +Ash, Sir. +No. +Iron? +Iron. +Right. +Molten iron. +Which is very hot indeed. +Yeah. +Which is why in the iron and steelmaking trade they refer to the molten iron as hot metal. +If you were to let that iron cool, what form of iron would you actually have? +Is it steel? +No. +It's not steel yet, we've got to convert it into steel. +What's that iron +. +Solid iron. +Begins with C. +. +Four-letter word. +Cast iron. +Cast iron. +. +Good, right. +Okay. +says it's cast iron. +Now cast iron, if you are in the metal workshops and you are hitting something with a hammer and you hit the vice instead, Mr will throw a scranny at you. +Why? +snap and break. +Because it will snap and break, yes. +Cast iron is very brittle. +Which is one of the reasons, by the way, why another thing you will get murdered for in the er workshops is taking two hammers and hitting the heads against each other, because they're hardened and y they may well shatter quite explosively if you do that. +Why would you wanna do that? +Pupils do all sorts of peculiar things. +. +So cast iron is brittle. +So what is cast iron used for? +Making vices? +Yes. +Because +. +Well not d er it's a special form of steel for hammers. +But in a vice, what are you putting that cast iron under? +Are you stretching it or squashing it? +Squashing. +Squashing. +So cast iron is extremely good under compression. +If you stretch it it cracks very easily. +So cast iron res resists crushing better than steel does. +Cast iron is an alloy. +That's a mixture of two elements. +Normally alloys are mixtures of two metals. +But in this case, for cast iron, it's a metal and a non-metal. +Which is the metal, first of all? +For cast iron, pretty obvious. +. +Iron. +Right. +And what have we put lots of in the blast furnace, all that black stuff? +Slag. +Coke. +Coke. +The +Coke. +Right. +Which is carbon. +So cast iron is approximately four percent carbon. +It's an alloy of iron and carbon. +That makes It's the carbon that makes it brittle. +And during the steelmaking process the excess carbon is burnt off by injecting what gas into the molten iron? +Carbon monoxide. +Much more reactive than carbon monoxide. +Carbon er er er . +Not carbon anything. +Take the last bit. +Oxide. +. +Oxygen. +Yes. +So beside a steel works you will have an oxygen-making plant because they actually use oxygen by the ton. +Simon said something interesting earlier about the s the iron works. +You said it runs all the time. +Yes. +Yeah. +. +David said then. +Iron runs a iron works run all the time. +It's a continuous process. +How does that compare with steelmaking? +. +Yeah. +Steelmaking is a batch process a bit like making a cake, where you put all the ingredients in together bake the cake, then put another batch of ingredients, bake another cake. +With steelmaking they work in er two hundred and fifty tonnes roughly at a time, pour it in the basic oxygen steelmaking furnace, blow oxygen into the steel which takes about twenty minutes, then the steel with one or two other processes is basically ready to be used. +But it's a batch process, whereas ironmaking's continuous. +Now, cast iron contains four percent carbon. +When I had a lock that was sticking what did I blow What powder I did I blow into the lock to make it work better? +Baking powder. +No. +Yeast? +Got to tie up with the cast iron. +It's black powder +Coke. +Also Well, coke is +Carbon. +Carbon. +In what form? +Beginning with G. +Yeah. +Yeah. +Er diamond is one form. +What's the other form? +. +Oh, gold? +Graphite. +. +Used in pencils. +Graphite. +Graphite. +Good. +So graphite is the black form of carbon. +Diamond is the other form. +And graphite, cos I blew this graphite powder into the lock it acts as a what? +Oh a lubricant. +Lubricant. +Lubricant. +Lubricant. +So graphite is a dry lubricant. +Now why don't you put oil in a conventional lock? +It would clog it up. +Right. +Because the oil would attract dust and the d oil dries up and the leaves the dust deposits sort of caked inside the lock, and it will clog it up. +Graphite is a dry lubricant. +Cast iron contains a lot of graphite, proportionately. +Right? +So can you give me a use of cast iron which ha one of the effects of it is that it relies on the occasional lubricating properties of the graphite in the iron? +Er ice? +. +Er clue, it helped me to come to school this morning. +Car. +Right. +Moped. +So so what do you make the cylinder block out of? +. +Cast iron. +Why cast iron? +Because cast iron's hard. +What do you make the piston out of? +Cast iron. +Oh steel. +Steel. +No. +You want to be light and a good conductor of heat. +. +A light metal. +Aluminium. +Aluminium. +Right. +Your pistons are aluminium because you want a light weight because it going up and down, and if it's very heavy when th the connecting rod wants to pull it back down again it will want to carry on straight out through the top of the cylinder head. +So you want a light weight and a good conductor of heat. +And you have a hard metal sliding against a soft metal, because that actually produces less wear than two hard metals rubbing together. +. +Now normally your cylinder is lubricated by what? +Oil. +Oil. +If the oil film breaks down momentarily for a very short period of time that little bit of carbon that four percent carbon in the cast iron will actually stop the aluminium sticking to the cylinder. +So the graphite it actually helps to make it self-lubricating. +To a certain extent. +Now obviously nobody would be daft enough to try running a car without oil,although some of the garages doing their P D I 's, pre-delivery inspections, can cause that sort of problem. +The one I was thinking of in fact was a poor lady who bought a Ford Escort from er what was then Garage, it's now in Daybrook. +Oh yeah. +Oh yeah yeah, I know. +Right. +Opposite builders merchant . +Near the train station. +Yeah. +. +Near the what? +Well er you can see the train station from there. +Think you mean railway station. +Where? +Hang on a second. +Wait. +Let me just finish this off. +It was delivered from Ford on a transporter to in Daybrook,run off the transporter, they did the P D I, she went to collect her brand new car and got as far as Kwik-Save in Sherwood. +. +That's when the engine seized solid because there was no oil in the engine. +They forgot to check the oil. +. +Right, see you sir. + +So you've been robbed, raped and swindled, the question is were you asking for it? and what are you going to do about it now? +Crime they say doesn't pay, well you may have your own views on that but certainly across the breadth of variety of criminal activity we might agree that crime almost always hurt someone, more or less, we have a system designed to cope with the effects of crime and to deter future criminals, but it doesn't seem to be making crime a thing of the past, so how good are we at dealing with crime, tonight's hundred women have a broad range of experience as victims, law women, perpetrators, police and others, we'll be hearing their views on the system and how it might be changed and asking why are we all so fascinated by fictional crime from Cell Block H to Agatha Christie. +Lots to cover so lets start and let starts with er, having it done to you, would you say that you've ever been a victim of crime?, button one for yes, button two for no, have you been a victim of crime? +Er now this is interesting because this is not a representative cross section of er, of women in Scotland, but its an average gathering together, not chosen for any reason other than some are interested er, some come from er no particular background, but sixty two of this hundred have said yes, they have been a victim of crime, those of you had said yes, what, what, what experiences have you had that made you say yes? +Er, I've been robbed and swindled, er I was burgled two months ago, my house was wrecked all my jewellery every thing taken simply because I had left my windows open slightly, now I've got to sleep at night with all my windows closed and I don't get a good nights sleep apart from feeling insecure any way and er the swindle er I trusted people and now I can't trust any body and that leaves you feeling very insecure. +right, who else said yes, yes +Right, I was subject to a, an assault that was quite frightening erm in that I was working in a shop on my own and er someone came into the shop and locked the door behind me and tried er to pull me down towards the back of the shop and er apart from being very frightened I find it difficult to accept that I was just an innocent victim, I kept making excuses that this person who did it to me didn't mean to frighten me he, only couldn't communicate that he, he, he said it eventually when I managed to fight him off he said, I just wanted to give you a kiss and er I find it very difficult and I had to be forced to go to the police erm to tell them about this because I thought you know its just a misunderstanding and, but it was terrifying +mm +it really was terrifying. +so robbery, assault, who else?what, yes +Very minor on the scale of things but I've had a car stolen, erm great inconvenience, can't believe its going to happen to you, didn't do any thing to have caused this, locked up and took all the precautions, and yet it still happened and some one, some where out there has my car. +when was that? +mm, nine weeks ago. +so your still, yeah +so I'm still struggling with four children and no car +yeah +and I'm not happy about it really +what else?, up there +Can I just comment on the lady saying a minor crime, I don't think any crime is minor when it happens to you +mm +if your the victim, its major, it has effected her life, maybe not to dramatically but she has been greatly inconvenienced by not having a car +mm +so the term a minor crime I, I don't think is a very good one to be using. +mm, yes +I was actually mugged on holiday er then years ago and I was held up with a gun and it was the most horrendous feeling +where was that? +in Barbados and er some young chaps had saw me lying on the beach and er they stole my bag and they stuck a gun in my face and freeze lady, you don't do any thing, you just let them take what they want and its a horrible feeling when your there, we were there for three weeks and it just totally spoiled the holiday but the ramifications of it don't just stop once you got on the plane home, it was very frightening +well your talking about it now and, and with a degree of emotion, do you still feel it? +oh, it was feel , it was so terrifying, you just, you regard every one with suspicion after that. +mm, mm +I actually feel, there was a time I used to think it wouldn't happen to me because if I was in that situation I would do this, I would do the next thing and when it did actually happen to me it took me ages to get over +mm +the trauma because your so helpless and +what was, what was the it can I ask that happened? +mm +I mean if you don't want to say its alright +no, I don't particularly want to say +yeah +but you, you've, you build up the strength in yourself and believe that your, your in vulnerable and then to find out that you are vulnerable, it really scary +yeah I think that's a very good point that, that the fact that you've lost control whether its of your, your own personal safety +yeah +or, or your, or your property or, or the people you care for, yes +I was actually flashed at er in the library and what I thought of I would of done was completely different to what I actually did, erm, I thought I would of been quite calm about it, but in fact I ran out the library and I ran straight back to my flat erm, I was at that point I think about twenty one +mm +and I'd just finished training as a nurse and I thought I was really cool and calm and I would of reported it, but I didn't +you didn't? +no +why was that? +I think I was about twenty one several years ago now +oh, I see +well its interesting that you've remembered it, I mean do you wish you had reported it? +yes, yes +yeah +and its lasted the memory of it and I do wish I had reported it or at least gone to the library staff. +there +I am a victim support counsellor and why is it that criminals get all the help you know when they don't give help to the, the victims of crime? +is that your feeling that, that criminals get more help than victims? +well they get lawyers and all the supports +what's, what's , what's the general view on that? +to because we've got the Legal Aid system, but I mean my son was also a repeated robbed in his car and what shocked me was the, the police they said to me you shouldn't have a pretty car any way, he had a brand new X R three +you shouldn't have a pretty car, I mean that is nonsense +mm, yes +so he's got an old banger now, you know, they don't break into it. +As a police officer, any woman who do decide to report a crime to us they are offered quite a lot of advise +mm, mm +we refer victims onto victim support groups, if its a case of rape then their passed on to the rape counsellor's and also +survivor's, we will be with er a victim all the way through the enquiry and if at the end of that enquiry they will also be given details of the criminal injury's compensation board. +In your experience is there er, er a distinct failure on the part of people, I don't know whether you'd say men or women to report a lot of crime, I mean I don't, I don't know whether you can assess what proportion of crime's aren't reported? +I think there's always a fear to come forward and bring the details of a crime out into the open +mm +er, it can be a very terrifying experience for a woman, but I think part of the mental experience would be coming forward to the police and they had dealt with now in a far more caring and understanding manner, that that can actually help in a process of getting over it eventually. +yeah, now your saying that, is that, in your time working with the police that the, previously people weren't dealt with with such sympathy? +Well I would say that there has been a lot of changes since the new Home Office guide lines were issued in nineteen eighty five +yeah +before hand there were the same designated police officer of the same specialized suites, things have changed and they have changed for the better. +I wonder if that's everyone's experience?, would, would any one agree or, or disagree with that?, +Monica I think I might ask you erm I think your involved with the changed project is that right? +yeah +so, you, what does, what does that do exactly? +Well we actually take men who have been convicted of offences involving domestic violence +mm, mm +and put them through an educational programme as a conditional of a probation order. +I think what were dealing within a programme like this is very much the tip of the iceberg +mm +because I think women have traditionally been very reluctant both to report domestic violence and hearing echo's of what women are saying here, in terms of women looking into their own behaviours, to why it is happening rather than er having it labelled as a crime and I think one of the, the, the main thrust of the project, the women involved in is to raise the profile of domestic violence into being a criminal act. +I think if your, in, in a relationship with the person that commits the crime against you, as victims of domestic violence +then there's a tendency to look for the reason you were assaulted within yourself +mm +I think its very significant, here we are and lots of people have admitted to being a victim of crime but statistics show that twenty five per cent of women will be assaulted within a relationship and yet no women here has said that and that's probably because the women who have been so assaulted feels somehow it is their own fault, its somehow shameful. +possibly also they might not want to go on national television +and say that, which, which I would sympathize with entirely I mean you know, why, why bring it on yourself, yes +Erm, I work for ?in Edinburgh and erm, er all too often er we see er female relations er of male offenders, er this lady struck a chord er especially when it comes to serious crime +mm +where women examine themselves erm, if its the mother or the granny er did I bring him up wrongly, erm the girl friends or wife's er is it something that I didn't understand and at the same time it er really changes their lives +mm +er to visit prison's year after year after year er with children to prison's er all over the country +mm +and erm I just think that women are so strong and, and another thing that I find er that is very important, is perhaps there's women here we should look at why there's only one female prison in Scotland and about fourteen male lot and including young offenders institutions and er, I mean what is it we are as agenda er just less criminally minded, more controlled, more clever, what, you know we should be teaching men. +but it is the case that twenty two per cent of crimes are committed by women, erm and I think that the situation with women committing crime is quite complex and complicated one, erm that really needs quite er, a great detail of discussion, and one of the, the points I was going to make was this question of feeling guilty +mm +erm, when we are victims of crime, and personally I think that there are two main reasons for that, one reason certainly is that when women erm are victims of crime that there is of a sexual nature or domestic violence, part of the way that we have been brought up and part of the way that those crimes have been portrayed, is to portray them as our fault +yeah +er and some of the solutions that are offered to reduce those crimes involve women restricting, their movements and their freedoms, but I think one of the other reasons why generally people who are victims of crime be they men or women feel guilty is because one of the implicit elements in tradition crime prevention strategies is for us to reduce the opportunity for crime +mm, mm. +not to leave our handbags er in the car, not to leave the windows open and so on and I think that really dodges the issue of why people commit criminal acts. +You were just saying, you know, that we should just walk in the streets and things like, but I would just not walk out in the streets at night, I've got to be in the car with the doors locked and, and I just wouldn't walk out in the streets at night, not because any thing has happened to me, but its just through what I've heard, I'm just terrified. +So your willing to restrict your movement +Yes I am , I am afraid aha. +Socially and psychologically women are brought up to care for relationships, to care for people, they want to do it well, where it goes wrong they tend to blame themselves, but equally we have eminent members of the judiciary who in the past have commented in some of the cases of severe assaults on women, the kind of er quote that you were making +mm, mm +she asked for, she shouldn't of been walking along the street at twelve o'clock and when we have those attitudes at the top of our legal and judicial system its no wonder women blame themselves and indeed maybe blamed. +well perhaps, but women get very angry as well, but nothing seems to change, I mean what the heck do you do about it when some estimable er gentleman and it almost invariably must be a gentleman since their by far the huge proportion of er presiding judge's and magistrate's comes out with that kind of comment about er a woman's victim reputation or behaviour as he sees it, I mean what is, what is the answer there? +If every one who was offended wrote a letter, that would be a start. +So once again its, its, its your responsibility to complain about the ill that has been done to you, yes. +I think your treated completely differently if your assaulted in the street than you are if your assaulted in your home +mm, mm +I was treated abominably by the police when I was assaulted in the home +er, when you say you were treated abominably what do you mean? +over a number of years I was subjected to domestic violence, erm, the last time I left I didn't report it right away, morally it was my son, I didn't want to drag him through the court, but when I did I was told no, your too late, you will just be seen as a woman scorned, your trying to get revenge, and that's it, no, I'm not taking a statement. +So what's your general feeling at the end of that particular experience? +Furious +And er, and, presumably your attitude to the police is not a sympathetic one +no +is that, is that general? +as far as domestic violence is concerned, yes. +Yeah, I worked with a voluntary group for a while and I remember helping one lady go through, she was raped, and go through the courts, and all her past life was brought up, I mean I was so upset for her and yet the fact that he had actually raped twice before wasn't brought up, but her past life was brought up and the man actually got off in the end because she just could not cope with being on the stand and dealing with it all and it was just so terrible that, that, that the, the ina , +mm +the differences should be male and female like this was so terrible +So your describing a system which you feel double victimizes someone who is, who's +I think it can do, I mean it was a long time ago and I'm, I'm +yeah +told that it has changed, but at that time, and I know my feeling was left that if I was raped I wouldn't never go to the police. +well a number of things have come up so let's just take a couple of votes as er, from hearing from a few people and of which people haven't managed to speak so, first of all, er, er people talked about fear being larger than the incidence of assault, are you afraid to go out in the dark?, button one for yes and button two for no do you find that your afraid to go out in the dark, and then this hundred and that's a very, I mean that's, that's a very significant figure fifty seven out of this hundred women say yes that their afraid to go out in the dark from time to time, I mean that, that is not as it should be, let me ask you are you ever afraid in your own home?, button one for yes and button two for no and that two is a very worrying figure, twenty nine of of this hundred say yes their afraid in their home, let me ask you this have you trained in self defence?, button one for yes and button two for no, I mean its something that comes up from time to time and I don't know what your view and whether or not its a good idea, well twelve of the hundred here have er, eighty eight say no, of those twelve would you recommend it?, did it make you feel better?, yes +At the time it did, but I think I've forgotten every thing I learned. +Yeah I, I er thought about self defence but I keep thinking about things like that's fine but if someone has a knife or a gun, the one might of self defence that I have been trained on or taught in can possibly help and I can't really see it as being very very helpful because +mm, mm +very seldom is er one to one situation where the perpetrator does not have a gun or a weapon of some description so I don't see it as being very helpful. +do you think in this country that's the case?, people have a weapon now certainly if they +I think so +were doing this programme in the United States that'll be, but then of course you living in the States you'll probably all have guns +I mean I don't, I wonder, do, do any of you have a gun?, let me ask you that +do you, do, do you have a gun?, button one for yes and button two for no well I'm not going to ask you to identify yourselves the three of you +who have, well in fact, I must ask you this would you, would you like to have a gun?, button one for yes, button two for no, I'll tell you my own view on this after you've voted and nine of you say yes you would, what, what, would any body liked to say why they'd like to have a gun?, yes +Well I erm, I was, I was burgled about a year ago and I'm am ex er, I'm a retired criminal lawyer, and, but I, I felt that if I lived in the States and trained in the States and I carried a gun then and I felt very vulnerable in not having a gun because he, I was in my own home and he fist me with a knife +mm, mm +you, er, it had happened because I had been, I had had a lot of training and a lot of swindles and thing, I was able to talked to him and I talked to him for an hour and a half er, I was curious for one thing to find out why he was, he, he was breaking into people's houses, so that the fact that he was doing it for, to, to get money for drugs +mm, mm +and I, I told him I wasn't stupid enough to keep money in the house as an ex er as an ex lawyer and erm, where, er it so happened as I say that I talked to he, he didn't take any thing in fact at the end he apologise for having chosen the wrong house and he +went to put the, he, he went away again, but I, I did mention to the police, who I might say were very helpful were ninety per cent of burglars don't get cleared up so of course it wasn't important and I never expected it would be, but I did mention to the police at the time that I would like an future occasion because I've been trying to use guns in America er to have a gun in the house but they er, but they wouldn't erm agree to it at all +mm, mm +I asked if I could have a fire arm, she said oh no, no, no, they +mm +but, but I think that we'll get into that stage in Britain +do you? +but erm , er at a stage that they are in and been for a long time in the States as we will have to er get armed, well I'm sorry to say this but it seems like it +well no its your view, although ninety one of the women here said no and er, if I had a vote I'd, I'd probably say no because I'm absolutely convinced I would use it if I had it +and er, and well, well, one can be abrupt at times and the that could lead +to other things, we've kind of veered of the, one of the subjects that we were er, we did get onto which was how the police and the courts er handle er well victims and indeed criminals, I wonder if I might conflate erm both those groups into one question, its a very broad question, but I wonder if you think by and large the police do a good job, erm button one for yes and button two for no, erm and the majority here say yes, seventy seventy people say yes the, the police do a good job and since we've talked about the courts do you think the courts do a good job by and large?, we've been talking specifically about erm some of the more bizarre erm statements that have come from the bench, particularly in with reference to crimes erm, that have treated against women, well now, seventy nine say no, so the police comes thumbs up, but the courts are way down, now not surprisingly there aren't many representatives from the courts er amongst this hundred +because er there weren't all that many er available, what, what do you think of, twenty one of you said yes, of the twenty one who said yes are you surprised that the great majority of this hundred women are so unimpressed by, by the courts system, who said yes and would you like to defend your answer?, yes +Er, I must declare an, an interest because I am a, a court lawyer, but I think that a lot of people say no because of the media pres , presentation, you only hear bad stories, they don't hear the good, good stories about the attempts to make the courts more efficient and I think that on the whole and with the circumstances that the courts have to deal with they do a very good job. +so its my fault again +the media any, any, yes, up there. +You've got to mention in Scotland the one thing that we've got to be proud of is the children's panel system because +mm +we, its one of the only countries in the world where children can go and in a non judged mental way, a panel can work out what the best thing is to do with them, its unique. +We've hardly managed to touch on prisons at all, or though, although, I know that we have amongst us hundred people who er, who are, are responsible for and er and have dedicated much time to working in prisons and I don't know whether there is sufficient people here qualified to comment or not whether the prisons do a good job, so I'll ask some one who's bound to be a slightly partial Audrey , there's only one women's prison as some one said earlier, now your an ex-governor, now is that right? +I'm a governor at present er working in prison service headquarters in Edinburgh, but I previously worked in Pentonville, erm I think it depends on what you mean by do by prisons do a good job, I think that's a terribly vague and wide ranging question +well I, well that's why I'm not putting it to the vote +I think in terms of our our first duty to protect the public by keeping offenders locked up securely, yes by and large we do a good job and that, by keeping good order in prisons we do a good job generally speaking incidence are very few and far between after the mid eighties, things have settled down considerably. +In terms of offering prisoners a range of opportunities to address their offending behaviour and to take up erm an interest or activity which will channel them into other activities, I think at the moment we do less of a good job than we will two years down the line, I think the emphasis now is very much on opportunity and responsibility +mm, mm +encouraging offenders to except responsibility for what they have done, but also to take the opportunity to do something positive about that and in that were delivering a service to the public and to the offender, so I think things are improving +that we should keep a watching brief +yes +would any one like to comment on that?, +Jackie +I've just spent six months in Cottonvale and I mean its degrading, I mean cos your locked up in a cell from eight o'clock at night till six o'clock in the morning and your not got any toilet facilities you've got to use a potty if you want to go to the toilet and it is degrading, I mean there's people in there, well I was a first offender the first time I was in, but I mean there's people in there seventeen year old that haven't a clue about life in general and it is degrading for them. +So the claims that are made for the good of prison does your not, your not impressed by, well we have to give right of reply to Patricia as you work at Cottonvale. +I would say that if a person is locked up from that time at night, there's circumstances, their perhaps observation for their own safety, erm any body else that can be trusted at night sanitation are not locked in, they have the facilities to go to the toilet during the night, I mean this person that's just said must of obviously been ob observation or was locked up for a reason. +Were getting into an area which I think is a whole different programme and before this programme started I might tell you we were having a little er discussion amongst ourselves whether or not er zoo's were good for animals and I suppose there is a discussion about whether prisons are inevitably going to be degrading because of, because of what er, what, what a prison represents which is a curtailment of freedom, but we don't have time in this programme, so that's another one for next year, can I ask you, we've, we've touched a lot of basis and it must be frustrating that we can't pursue er to the end some of the things we've er, we've picked on, but can I ask you a couple of final questions, as far as you know have you committed a crime?, button one for yes and button two for no, as far as you know, I mean we haven't got time to go into what they might be so your perfectly free to be very honest and honestly reveals that three people aren't quite sur , oh yes there they are +well there are fifty one law abiding citizens and there are forty nine potential felons if only they had been +found out, my final question tonight is do you enjoy crime fiction? and that includes television, after all the station that this programme goes out on, wins a lot of revenue for making a very popular er detective fictional thing called Taggart, I don't know whether you watch that, or what you read but seventy eight of you enjoy crime fiction, now there's an interesting paradox that we will discuss, why you can discuss at home, we'll discuss it now, good night. + +not in any way in competition with ni with er apostle's creed or anything else. +It's a quite different er er er er animal. +It's er the, the apostle's creed ha has erm er er er is erm out of a different background and that er compiled in a different context altogether, it's polemic law so often, this is doxological. +These are, we are saying here things that we rejoice to say and which we give glory to God. +It just has that particular slant, that particular emphasis. +So I would prefer to let you be the judge of it as it stands today. +Any discussion, if we enter into any discussion, we start tinkering with it and er we don't know where we'd end. +I leave it as it stands. +May I ask the clerk to kindly read the addendum since we don't have it in print. +It is in the erm statement of faith to substitute for the phrase by his death on the cross the words he died on the cross for the sins of the world. +Those who vote for that addendum would you please stand. +Those who vote for. +Would you please sit. +Thank you. +Those who vote against would you please stand. +I declare it has been carried against. +Any other contributions on deliverance number four? +Ian number three two six. +A, a, a brief amendment Moderator er to the deliverance, not to the text of the statement. +I have sympathy for the view of the convenor that it has been er revised er enough. +Er it reads er to add to, an addendum to section four further instruct the panel when addressing concern for a modern confession of faith, to give consideration to the difficulties involved in common confession of faith today. +Er I think the panel have er admirably completed a difficult task in drawing together the, the statement of faith they have presented. +Er I'm impressed that they are willing to er potentially consider a, a further difficult task in drawing up a confession of faith. +Er perhaps we have not, up until this point, considered just how difficult that task is. +I think there are aspects of the world in which we live and, and er, in which the church lives which make common confession of faith particularly difficult er today. +We tend to conceive er generally of faith very much in personal terms, we see it as personal faith. +Er we think of the mission of the church very largely in terms of personal evangelism. +Er I think in an age of such individualism er the whole natu nature and possibility of common confession of faith becomes difficult er and I'd simply ask that, if it's going to go ahead and consider possibly a confession of faith, that the panel er might give consideration to the difficulties gen gen generally involved in er the, the question of common confession of faith today. +I move the amendment. +He now informs me that he's willing to accept that addendum. +Is it the will of the assembly to accept that addendum? +Thank you. +D Dr +Number sixty, G F . +Moderator this is a, a new er for a new five. +haven't approved of number four yet. +Oh I'm sorry +We've still to, we've still to come to +I'm sorry +the gap between four and five. +Thank you. +Any more addendums and Are you making an amendment or an addendum? +I just want to make a very brief comment first of all. +Yes certainly. +Thank you. +Number eleven, the name is Margaret . +I should like to congratulate the panel on doctrine on the very difficult job they did in handling all these responses from kirk session. +Our kirk session was one which objected very strenuously to the use seven times of the male pronoun in the section on the holy spirit. +I think what they have done reads beautifully as English is very profound theologically and it uses language that is not gender specific. +I congratulate them on that and hope that in the future they will carry on that practice. +Thank you. +Now I'm going to come now, I think, it will be the mind of the assembly to take the vote on, for deliverance number four and Mr 's counter motion. +And as I've indicated, I'm now going to ask the convenor to sum up. +You have the right of reply to Mr 's counter motion. +Well Mr took a terrific swipe at us and I think I couldn't possibly enter into the detail of controversy involved there. +I th stick to my former line I think that we've all had a look at this, er we, I believe it's a useful, serviceable instrument and I rest my case. +Thank you. +Now could we just hear Mr 's counter motion again please Mr . +Then I'll call a vote for the deliverance or against the counter motion. +Moderator the counter motion is in section four as it stands to stop in the second line after the word commentary. +Delete all the words after commentary. +Thank you. +Now we have the deliverance number four before us in print as the motion. +Could I ask those who wish to vote for the motion, deliverance number four as in print on page one eight five, to stand please. +Thank you. +Those wishing to vote now for the counter motion in the name of Mr to please stand. +Thank you. +I declare that the motion has been carried, that is the deliverance as in print, number four on page one eight five. +Now we've quite a we, we have first of all, in the light green papers notice of motion from Mr Ainsley of moving a new five. +I've also heard Dr wishing to move a new five, Dr I think yours will be five B, and I call first of all on Mr . +Moderator +Mr six four eight. +This brilliant piece of oratory which I have in my hand here, in addition to many other valuable insights, contains three alternative definitions of faith, two gentle digs at Professor , and one definitive statement of when the third millennium begins. +However I am not so enamoured of the sound of my own voice that, bearing in mind what er Dr has said about the amount of business, I would insist on inflicting it upon it if someone would be prepared to second it and the convenor and the assembly be prepared to accept it. +Accordingly I formally move it, but if the a that acceptance is not forthcoming, then I would have to deliver my speech. +Mr I really should say Ainsley, it's just like being back in Trinity College with you. +Could I have a comment from the convenor. +Simply to indicate what your mind is. +Not just +I think we'd be er prepared to accept this at, what's asked for is a feasibility study, no more than that in the first instance and I think we'd be prepared to accept. +Is it the mind of the assembly that we accept this? +Thank you Mr for arranging your argument that way. +Dr +Dr you've a new number five. +Sixty, +So you've a new number six now +This very brief motion I've discussed with the convenor who will accept it and also with the general secretary of worl of the board of the world mission who was ready also to co-operate with it. +The my proposal is simply this consider the feasibility of a theological examination of anti-semitism. +Just like that, without any, any restriction. +Now I do this sir, because last week in the council of Christian and Jews in Edinburgh we had one of the profoundest meetings I've been at, in which very distinguished people, Jews and er er Christians were concerned with the fact that anti-semitism, at the very bottom, is anti-God, it opposed to revelation. +And behind all the ethnic and sociological and other religious elements, there is something very deep, and this struck a deep chord with me. +When I was a student in Germany and encountering fierce anti-semitism and a fierce anti-Jewish relations I, I soon realised that at the back of this was a direct attack upon the concrete revelation of God in history through Israel and the church, which called in question German nationalism, German blood and soil. +Now I believe that the time has come for us to think again about the theological side, the theological er and I make this proposal consider the feasibility of a theological examination anti- semitism and the convenor is ready to accept it Thank you sir. +Thank you. +Dr do you accept? +Yes, may I just say a word here +Yes you may. +Moderator we, we do accept this but maybe I could er say just a word to the assembly about the workload as it were of this panel on doctrine. +If you look at er the erm the er papers, what's the book called, the order of proceedings, you'll discover that we are quite a small body of four a convenor, vice convenor four ministers four elders four others and one representative from each of the four faculties erm of divinity.. from those members of the faculty who are members of the Church of Scotland. +Now that number is small and decreasing it seems to me. +Er furthermore er so the number upon whom we can draw is, is really minimal, and we do depend heavily on the help of the professional theologians, though we're all theologians you know I, I subscribe to the idea that we're all theologians, I won't listen to these people who say I'm no theologian. +We're all theologians, but we do obviously depend heavily on the help of the professionals. +Er that help is, there are fewer to draw from,i it's also far more difficult for them to spare the time, the pressures on the academics are considerable nowadays. +So er as I say we do accept this but we have to er be careful just how much we undertake, and mercifully on this case there is no time limit,a and also I think we have the assurance from the board of world mission and unity, that they and any others who are, have something to offer, will help us. +So on that understanding I accept. +Is it the will of the general assembly so to accept and approve? +Do you wish to speak against? +I wish to suggest an addendum. +To Dr 's thank you. +four four two. +Moderator I declare my interest as a member of the panel on doctrine but I wanted to enquire whether Professor would be willing to include not only the problem of anti-semitism but what seems to me to be the opposite problem which also exists today, which is the problem of Zionism. +And I wonder if we do not need to enquire into the theological basis of both. +Dr , would you include that within your statement? +No this would, this would be mixing up two very different things. +that's right. +Like oil and water. +S so +has to be done, I wouldn't agree with it. +I'm just asking Professor for my own clarification at this stage, and it is that he does not agree to accept Mr 's addendum. +And so therefore I have to ask now is there anybody willing to second Mr 's addendum? +It is being seconded. +Any discussion? +Then we have a vote as to whether to accept or not to accept Mr 's addendum. +Could I ask the clerk to read it please or to recall oh sorry, the convenor, yes indeed. +I tend, Moderator, to Professor 's view that this complicates the issue and we'd be better to deal with anti-semitism by itself first of all. +Shall we, shall we still, we w w we still have the, the, the issue of voting now for or against Mr 's addendum. +And I wonder if one of the clerks could just put it before us please. +The this amendment Moderator is simply to add to what we've already agreed the er feasibility of a theological examination, not only on anti-semitism but also Zionism. +Those voting for Mr 's addendum on Zionism would you please stand. +Thank you. +Those voting against. +It is carried against, and so I come back to the new erm section being proposed by Professor on anti-semitism and concurred by the convenor, Dr , and put it to the assembly. +Is that approved by the assembly that that is then given to the panel as a new responsibility? +Now we come in the er blue papers page sixty five to the notice of two new sections six and seven in the name of Mr , and I'd ask Mr to speak to these please. +David one six three. +Moderator I'm going to ask the general assembly to turn their mind to quite a different subject now. +We've had baptism, we've had statement of faith, we've had anti-semitism we're going to think now about intercommunion all under the umbrella of the panel of doctrine. +Moderator I refer commissions t commissioners to appendix two on page one hundred and ninety one of the blue book. +There we read in line seven of the desirability of retaining a bilateral contact between our two churches on matters of doctrine a desire express, I'm glad to note, by our Roman Catholic friends and that's good. +Then in the last two lines of the appendix I read the panel on doctrine seeks permission for the joint commission to meet twice yearly as necessary to study documents of doctrinal interest. +I don't think that's quite so good and why because of its evident ab absence of the note of urgency and its lack of specifics. +Moderator all the main line churches have recognized a divine call to unity throughout this century. +But the century is fast running out. +While there are glimmers of light the establishment of ACT two years ago increasing ecumenical activities at grass roots level, some referred to by Bishop this morning I believe that the times require a note of urgency in our response to God's call. +And God's world in its great need requires a visible sign that we are all truly united and no longer divided in our allegiance to Christ as lord. +Growing together is a step by step process. +I say real progress has been made but today I am asking you to think about the next step a step that I am sure we all feel is at the heart of the matter a transforming step perhaps the critical step that will guarantee ultimate success in fulfilling god's loving will for his church. +The next breakthrough to my mind centres around the lord's table. +Our Roman Catholic friends already recognize our common baptism into Christ. +They recognize also that we are together the body of Christ in the world, I hear them saying so now. +So it would seem logical that the invitation to the lord's table should be reciprocal, and why is it not? +An Archbishop in the hierarchy has said to me recently oh I feel the pain but Rome does not permit it. +You've all heard that and I've heard it for about thirty years now. +Now that reason without large expansion cannot satisfy fellow Christians. +And is that really the case? +Vatican two, in the decree on ecumenism number eight, certainly says that sharing in the sacrament should not be indiscriminate. +I quote further it should only be used to signify the unity of the church and it should provide a sharing in the means of grace. +The gaining of a needed grace sometimes commends it. +Now all that from Vatican two and its decree. +Now with that statement as guide, discretion is left to the local bishop. +It is happening now not just occasionally but increasingly on the continent, but not yet here in Scotland. +There is also the oft repeated argument that we should not sit down together at the table until after unity is accomplished. +But I repeat if we are united in a common baptism united together as the body of Christ in the world the primary union in Christ is acknowledged. +Unity of organization which by its nature will be a very longterm matter and unity in doctrines not of the substance of the faith, and we all know of significant divisions there, do not affect the central doctrine. +And here I come to the crux of what I want to say. +What really matters is whether or not we all believe certain essentials about the sacraments. +That the Lord Jesus is always the host at his table present in our midst as we do as he commanded. +That in and under the bread and wine, as Calvin put it, set apart from common use to this holy use to represent his body and blood, he feeds us with his very life I in you and you in me, I the vine and you the branches. +No chemical change takes place in the bread and the wine, nor in ourselves. +Now that is accepted by all and I've discussed it recently I say with one of the Roman Catholic hierarchy. +Transubstantiation now listen carefully I have discovered this in conversation to be a matter of semantics of words. +I've said to my brother Roman Catholic if what you are saying is that the substance of the godhead is in a mystery transferred into our substance that is to say that we are recipitents recipients in the sacrament of the divine life then we go out in faith together believing the same essential. +If that is so, and it does seem to be so, is it not time that we rejoice together while we are being nourished together at his table. +I am asking today that our commissioners ask the Scottish bishops, in accordance with the permission granted in Vatican two's decree, to allow an open table on ecumenical occasions. +Now note I'm not asking at this point in time for a general opening. +Our own reform in the matter needs clearer definition and our people need a lot of teaching and the panel could help us there. +My fi five minutes are now just about up so I finish moderator by affirming that +I'm allowed one more minute after the bell. +I finish Moderator affirming that if we are in communion with Jesus Christ we are necessarily in communion with one other. +All other doctrines are very secondary to that, and the question is are we to express that reality or must we continue to obscure it. +We must express it for the world to see and to believe. +I plead with our commissioners and their counterparts in the Roman Catholic side to concentrate on this issue and not to dally for this I believe is the golden key to that greater, completer, richer and more effective church that is surely coming under God. +Is this seconded? +Thank you. +Could I ask the convenor just to make a statement. +It's not, it's not his summing up, it's just a point of clarification to indicate whether he may or may not accept this. +Moderator I think I'm wholly in sympathy with this. +One thing er pu puzzles me a little and gives me a little difficulty, that is erm the addendum refers to an invitation to all baptised members. +I imagine communicant members would make this a little easier. +Mr any comment? +I'd be happy about that. +You'll be happy with that, thank you. +And so we +Moderator +Yes? +Of course you can, you're a delegate and entitled to speak Bishop at any time. +one two eight nine I think. +Er +Twelve eighty nine sounds more historical. +Twelve eighty nine. +I'm sure there's some awful battle where we got er knocked about but still +I hope that's not a presage of what's gonna happen now. +I'm rather unprepared for this one admittedly, but it seemed to me that if you're quoting a member of the absent hierarchy, you might as well hear er from, from a present member. +Erm certainly I will carry back to my fellow bishops what is expressed here, concern about the question of sacramental intercommunion. +I would like to say one or two things which might help in understanding. +One is that it isn't all just a question of the Scottish hierarchy being thralled to Rome in such a way that it cannot do what it wants. +Nor is it a question of our seeking a dispensation from the holy see to accede to some request locally. +The question that we are looking at is a question, not simply of discipline, but a matter that depends on our understanding, not just of the eucharist, but of the nature of the church. +And so we're talking not just about sacramental communion, but ecclesial communion. +And these are matters that we are, and will be for the future the immediate future and perhaps for the more distant future thoroughly engaged upon because there are very deep questions here and the sacramental one hinges upon the ecclesial one. +Now as regards the actual well perhaps I should add to that, that there are two principles if you like in the theological field which govern the practice of the church. +One is the principle that given ecclesial communion, that ecclesial communion is represented, is signified, is sacramentalized, is celebrated in, at the lord's table. +Now that is not to deny that it is in effect surely of bringing Christians together, but there are certain questions. +At what point do you, in all honesty and sincerity er celebrate a sacrament which is a sacrament of giving unity as well as bringing unity forward. +The other principle is the principle of particular need. +In other words,sacramenta procta hominas the sacraments are for the good of men and woman, of course the hominas in Latin includes both, it's inclusive language for the sake of er well of certain persons who will be picking me up +And that is why there are occasions, particularly on the continent, when Christians from other denominations are positively welcomed at the table. +Because the local church recognizes in the person of its priest or bishop their need for the sacrament, and the unavailability of the sacrament within their own communion. +And those two principles are the governing principles at present in the practice of the Catholic Church with regard to admission to the sacrament. +Let me finish in a very positive note in saying that I'm as concerned as the speaker to which I reply that that day will be reached and reached soon, please God, when we can sit down together and share fully in the sacrament of the lord's supper. +Thank you. +Any other any other discussion? +Mr +Moderator, thirteen forty two and convenor of the Board of World Mission and Unity. +To remind the assembly that this is a matter which was raised I think by Mr a couple of years ago and when a very similar motion was accepted by the Board er asking us to raise this matter with the the Roman Catholic hierarchy in Scotland, which we did er we know that there has been attention paid to this by the, the hierarchy. +About six months ago, our deputy general secretary wrote to Monseigneur , the general secretary of the bishops conference, and er told him that we hoped progress was being made, referred in particular to the degree of consensus that had been a arrived at in the baptism eucharist and ministry document and er also to the difference that had been made by the coming into being of ACTS and its commission on unity faith and order and we had a reply to that er a letter from Monseigneur assuring as that the hierarchy were taking this seriously, that they were discussing it er amongst themselves in Scotland and were also in discussion with Rome on the subject as well. +Er and as would have been noted in the in our report to this general assembly on page four hundred and nine, we say at the end of er the paragraph in the middle of the the page in which we are referring to ACTS and its commissions, in this connection it should be noted that the church's approach to the Roman Catholic bishops conference of Scotland on the question of intercommunion is under discussion in that conference and in the ACTS commission on unity faith and order. +So although there is not as yet any definitive question, any definitive answer to this same question which was raised by Mr a couple of years ago, it is under consideration and we would hope that the sort of answer which he is hoping for might be forthcoming from that source. +If the convenor is willing to accept this and I'm aware of the time, if anybody wishes to strongly speak to a new point or a new angle on this matter, I'd really prefer to call on the convenor to sum up. +Would that be the will of the assembly? +Thank you. +Moderator it's a great joy to hear Bishop speaking in this particular context on this subject. +He and I enjoy very happy ecumenical relations and personal friendship and we've argued this out in our respective cathedrals before now. +Erm I, he has these two principles and we respect them. +I think there are other two principles though which I hope you would feel we er should respect. +One is that erm in this matter, especially the matter sacramental, we are always anticipating when every time we celebrate the lord's supper we anticipate the marriage feast of the lamb. +We don't wait till the kingdom comes before we celebrate, we celebrate now in joyful anticipation. +Our lord taught us to pray er er give us this day our daily bread but we all know when we've read our commentaries that the word epusios means of tomorrow, give us today the bread of tomorrow. +And therefore I think this principle of anticipation i is also an equally valid er er principle that we, we should er er look forward in faith to the day when we celebrate, and on occasions we should be able to anticipate that unity. +Furthermore, we believe that the very celebrating of the sacrament does bring us more speedily on the way to that longed for unity. +I think it's quite proper for us to be importunate and hammer on the door and say it again as, as the deliverance would have us say, and I'm sure our Roman friends will understand our importunity. +Now to the assembly these new sections six and seven, is it the mind of the assembly to accept these? +Thank you. +Is it the mind of the assembly to accept the deliverance as amended as a whole now? +Thank you. +Dr before we pass to other business, I would like to thank you very much indeed for all the work that the very small size panel on doctrine has carried out for the good of the assembly and the work of the church. +Thank you. +A call for the report on the Board of Social R Responsibility. +Moderator four hundred and seventy five. +Moderator I reported to the general assembly last year that the Board of Social Responsibility had planned a deficit on its operation of thirty eight eventide homes amounting to a little over two million pounds. +At that time I explained that although the Board's weekly rate on these homes was low, due to our policy of not charging any element for capital in the rate we calculate, the Department of Social Security made available to elderly people in residential care in the community an allowance in that year of forty pounds and in this present year of fifty five pounds per week below the cost of such care in any of our homes where the cost is already artificially depressed. +The Board's policy of completely absorbing all capital costs and charging nothing for income on capital amounts on average to a subsidy of ninety six pounds per resident per week. +And the Board thinks there's a reasonable subsidy to offer to its elderly residents. +It is with considerable regret that I now have to tell the general assembly that although other parts of the Board's work, and the Board's investicl invested capital have performed well from a financial point of view, the anticipated deficit on thirty eight eventide homes has been sustained. +Representations have been made and are being made to her majesty's government. +We see this underfunding of eventide care as limiting the choice available to people who have come to that point in their lives when they're making decisions about the sort of care that they will next require. +It is our hope that the Department of Social Security will move in keeping with the findings of the all party parliamentary select committee on social security to correct this underfunding before the responsibility for meeting the cost of residential care in the community is transferred from the D S S to local authorities a year from now. +In the meantime, the Board is looking for ways to fund the deficit should it continue, but has decided not to charge the deficit as an additional burden upon those residents who are able to pay their own way from their own resources, and not to move from its established principle of offering care to those most in need towards a degenerate policy of offering care only to those who are most able to pay. +Needless to say, needless to say this deficit has not involved any additional call whatsoever upon the mission and aid fund of the church from which the Board receives an annual contribution of around four hundred thousand pounds towards its overall budget of twenty million pounds. +Moderator that works out at a contribution of seventy five pence per minute towards the actual cost of our operation of forty pounds and twenty three pence per minute. +The Board has met the deficit entirely from its own resources and has had to budget, as I've said, a continuing deficit into the current financial year. +All other parts of the Board's work have been budgeted within acceptable limits. +And I should say to the general assembly that the Board's four homes for people with senile dementia are differently funded and any deficits there are made up by grants from health boards and social work departments which are prohibited from making up the deficit in eventide care. +During nineteen ninety one the Board has been delighted to open new areas of work in Inverness where our first designated place and associated hostel was opened on a most happened happy day by Sir Russell . +In Elderslie near Paisley where Lady the wife of last year's Lord High Commissioner opened our fourth senile dementia unit. +In Haddington in, in East Lothian where Tyne Park House now offers a mental health service within that county. +But while new projects were opening, the Board was forced to depart from its Shetland Islands project which had been undertaken at the invitation of the Shetland Islands Council and the Island Council Charitable Trust. +This work was undertaken on the assurance from the Council and Charitable Trust that those bodies would resp would, would respect the Board's employment policy. +In the event, although both Charitable Trust and Council had given assent to the first advert on the policy agreed, they baulked at the second wave of recruiting, and sought to change the basis of our agreement. +Even going to the length of alleging in the public press that it was the Board which was in breach of its contract. +As we indicate to the general assembly in the printed report, the Board could have insisted on its rights under contract made with those bodies and the Board was confident that it would have won any action in the courts. +But to pursue this matter would have delayed for some years the opening of much needed services. +It is nonetheless a matter of deep regret that the Board has had to depart from this project and that the first of these care centres on Whalsay, which would have been opened in November nineteen ninety one had the agreement been left unaltered, was still not open at the beginning of this month. +Nonetheless, we take some satisfaction from the knowledge that the involvement of the Board did break the logjam at the earlier stage of this project, and we're able to report that the Shetland Island Council Charitable Trust has recognized the work of the done by the Board in its final settlement of its account with us. +Last year the general assembly decided nem con without demur on the advice of the assembly council that the Board of Social Responsibility should move away from the church's office in George Street. +And we now report that the arrangements towards this move are well on track for execution this year, some time ahead of the timescale that we indicated last year. +This will liberate much needed space in one two one, and enable the Board to bring together its central administration in one place for the first time ever. +In this time of new opportunity, as the Board is making arrangements to move to its new home and looking to developments in every area of service, we've also recognized that opportunities abound for local parish initiatives to attract funding from a variety of places. +For this reason, the Board has sought to liaise with such local initiatives and to ensure that wherever possible, the expertise and experience of the Board will be made available to them. +One area in which local initiatives within the church have proved invaluable has been in the delivery of service to people with H I V or AIDS and to their families, and to their loved ones. +Last year the general assembly gave to the Board of Social Responsibility a task of coordinating the work of the church in this field and we are proud now to be able to report to the general assembly that the work done by the assembly's various Boards and by numerous local initiatives make the Church of Scotland the nation's leading provider of services to the victims of H I V and to their families delivering both the most extensive and the most comprehensive service to these people within Scotland. +Although the church has traditionally been reluctant to expose those to whom it delivers this service to public attention, the general assembly ought to know of the scale of the kirk's response. +And I pay tribute now to all those parish and local church initiatives, to all the work done by the major Boards of the church and of course, to those who deliver the service on behalf and in the name of the Board of Social Responsibility. +In the field of addiction to alcohol and other drugs, the Board has been glad to see the wholly responsible position taken by the National Union of Students in its response to the pressures on young people to drink. +The Board has been delighted to congratulate her majesty's government er in its insistence that factors such as public order should be taken into account in the fixing of a Europe wide alcohol pricing policy. +And in response to the growing number of women presenting with problems associated with alcohol dependence, the Board in its report this year makes some moderate and practical proposals about the way in which alcohol might responsibly be marketed. +It is in its work on health and healing, the Board of Social Responsibility has for some years now been concerned with the provision of training conferences for ministers and others involved in this aspect of the church's commission. +When this particular work was added to the Board's remit, it was our intention to offer the church advice under our social interest section and important reports were prepared and submitted to the general assembly and accepted. +But the Board now asks the general assembly to look again at this part of our remit and to form a judgment about where this work should be most effectively done in future. +We ask the general assembly to remit to the assembly council to give attention to the placing of health and healing within the overall work of the church and to report to next year's general assembly on where they think this remit should most effectively be discharged. +In nineteen ninety the general assembly instructed the panel on doctrine to consider anew the question of the Christian doctrine of marriage, and to undertake this work in consultation amongst others with the Board of Social Responsibility. +This consultation has been effected through the Board's own study group on family matters, whose work the Board reports to this general assembly. +The Board is happy to commend this work to the church and directs the church's attention to the contemporary statement of the Christian ideal of the family contained within that report. +In making these statements the church is not standing aloof from the unconverted instructing them on how they ought to live their lives rather the church is speaking to itself, holding before all its members the id the ideal of what we believe God has taught in his word about the way in which people ought to live. +In that sense, our failure to measure up to that ideal can be seen, can be measured, can be understood, and the strength of the holy spirit can be sought as we all strive in his power not to fail in future. +And in saying this sort of thing to its own members, the church also invites the rest of the community to find for itself, people within the community to find for themselves, the positive benefits of living in obedience to the word of God. +In addition to this major report on the Christian family, which is the Board's contribution to the twin track work with the panel on doctrine, the Board also offers an interim report on young people in the media, and its final report presaged at last year's general assembly on ritual abuse. +Moderator in commending these reports to the general assembly and in particular, in presenting its work on ritual abuse, the Board is conscious of its deep indebtedness to those who have looked on its behalf at the mixture of evidence and conjecture on this most disturbing area of modern human depravity. +Moderator it's hard within the space of these few minutes to give a sense of the breadth of the Board's work. +And in focusing on some problem areas it's possible to fail to give an impression of the enormous privilege it is to serve the church and her lord in social responsibility. +But I would not be true to myself if I did not record my own thanks to all who serve on the Board for their hard and devoted work and at this time, to take a moment to thank the retiring vice convenor Bill for his work, his prayers, his support, his wisdom and his fellowship over the many years that he and I have served together. +Moderator I submit the report and I move the deliverance. +Is it seconded? +Seconded. +Questions to the convenor? +Yes? +nine hundred and forty. +My question concerns the Shetland Island project and the question is this how much has the withdrawal of the Board of Social Responsibility from the Shetland Islands project got to do with the Board's policy on social responsibility appointed staff being sympathetic to the Christian faith, and how much has it got to do with the fact that the Shetland Islands Council no longer need the Board of Social Responsibility to be able to spend charitable trust money, in other words oil money, without jeopardizing community charge support grant? +I was six and a half years the, the minister of Whalsay and Skerries where the first er centre h ha has been built and there was rejoicing in that community that the that social responsibility had been invited by the council to join in this work. +And er at that time when it was being mooted the, the council could not spend this charitable trust money without putting into jeopardy vast sums of money from revenue grant +speaker that you've put your questions and I think they're sufficiently clear for the convenor to reply. +Yes Moderator Mr is known to the Board and his support was greatly appreciated erm when these projects were being mooted. +Erm I don't know the answer to his question but I think he's put his finger upon a point. +Further questions? +Thank you. +seven three two. +I have a brief question and one comment. +I look with pleasure to see that the asse +Please may I ask you sir to limit yourself to your question. +Yes well the, the question is that I notice in the assets that investments at cost were twenty five million, the present market value is twenty eight million, indeed since that's been written it may even be more and when I looked down to the other side of the accounts, I noticed interest on capital of twelve hundred and four pounds and I wonder where the interest from the twenty eight million has gone to. +Erm I s suspect that it's er the one million two hundred and forty two thousand transfer from general operating reserve is that figure but may I make one comment +your question only +That's the question +Convenor will reply. +Yes Moderator the commissioner is mistaken, the investments at cost were seventeen million nine hundred and ninety seven pounds two hundred and ten. +Erm the market value he's right to say is now twenty eight million two hundred and twenty four pounds er two hundred and twenty four thousand six hundred and twenty four pounds erm and that's what's happened to the interest. +It's, it's, it's marched with the capital and that's why erm the capital value of our investments is so much higher than the cost. +Thank you. +one comment +No questions only at the moment. +There are a great many deliverances in due course to consider. +Five four eight . +Er Moderator you'll probably not let me speak either +but this is a quite serious problem and er I don't, I don't apologise for it because this is what's known as a donor card. +Now this assembly can I get a couple of minutes please? +Can you put your question. +Yeah I, but I mean I've but I've got to give you a small area of background. +Well it's a very important subject. +Let er me hear the question and I shall know if a background is required. +You won't understand the question without a +Moderator Mod Moderator +a wee +Moderator questions are asked for clarification of points in the report at this stage, they're not asked, it's not general questions that we're into. +I, I mean I can understand all this but I'm, I'm just asking +I'm, I'm asking, I've been here since Saturday +now I've sat here +I've sat here patiently, and I've lifti I've listened to all the briefly's and I think I'm due a brief word to the assembly +on this particular item which to me is very important. +There are people on waiting lists, and I just want the chance to say something on this subject which will take two minutes. +You you're chance will come in due course sir when we're making comments but at the moment it's just +But I'm just now Moderator. +I mean +If I don't g +I +I just +I think having I think having waited so patiently for so long that you can wait a little lo further. +I must as ask +What +you to retain your seat meantime sir. +Could, could you give me a shout when I'm due? +I I er +This is really this is really just in case I fall asleep. +I couldn't possibly forget you. +Thank you. +Further questions. +Yes +three one four. +I'd I'd like to know the, the, the Board's +I'd like to know the Board's position on fostering. +I ask this question purely and simply because of all the children's homes that are being closed, and these children need a caring and a happy home life and could the Board encourage church members to become foster parents? +An answer will come, yes? +Yes Moderator. +Erm it's now some years since the Board departed from most of its work with erm in children's homes, I think we have only one children's home now operating in Stonehaven. +Erm at that time erm we did erm report at some length on the question of fostering and exactly what the commissioner's asked for was the burden of the advice that we gave. +Moderator +Yes? +Er eighty seven. +Er this is a, this is a question concerning something which is not mentioned here, which I think should have been. +Erm the complete absence of any emphasis er in the deliverances on erm child abuse er child sexual abuse which is a most horrible sin. +This was er reported on a couple of years ago but we've heard nothing since, is there any action? +The convenor will answer, yes? +Yes moderator, erm last year, two year's ago the general assembly a very major report from the Board of Social Responsibility on the question of child abuse. +Erm we have produced a study pack which has been extremely well used within the church erm and is still being extremely well used. +It also contained erm guidelines erm er from Lord the then procurator now Lord Penrose erm on the way in which ministers ought to respond in cases of child abuse. +Erm having produced that report and having erm er done the follow up on it, it doesn't seem to me that it would be reasonable for the general assembly to expect that the Board would come back year after year with repetitions of what we've already said, and that's why the commissioner notices that erm we don't report this year on child abuse. +Thank you. +Someone here I think? +Yes please +twelve thirty three, and if you look you'll see I'm from Orkney. +I, I'm a general practitioner and I would like to back up initially what the convenor has said about the study pack that has come on child abuse but I have a question. +Could you put the question first please. +The question is why is there no mention in the paper on ritual abuse er of the use of general practitioners to assist ministers in areas of difficulty? +Thank you. +Yes Moderator I'm grateful to the commissioner for the, for the question. +Erm again this is something on which we've already advised ministers and in the context of the, the report on ritual abuse, specifically refers to the as,a as, as the context in which it's offered, to the c erm report on, on child abuse. +Any further questions? +Yes? +Please Er I'll call you next, yes? +one O six O. +Moderator could the convenor tell us why the Board wishes to be discharged its remit on health and healing when it's been so successful in bringing this to the notice of the whole church? +grateful to Mr for his very erm generous en endorsement of the work that the Board has done on health and healing. +As I said in pre presenting the Board's report, when this matter was first given to us, we were invited to advise the general assembly on matters relating to health and healing, and that we did. +At that time the general assembly didn't remove the remit from us and so we were emboldened by being allowed to continue erm to run some training conferences for ministers and others in the church who were involved in sharing this ministry of healing within the nation. +However th th the fit of that training work for ministers and others within the church has sat less and less easily with the Board's commission to advise the church, and that's our social interests commission, to advise the church erm on matters of social, ethical or moral importance within its remit. +And so because of that sense of ill ease of fit, we decided that perhaps it would be appropriate for the assembly council to look at where this work ought to most comfortably go. +If the assembly council decides to report to next year's general assembly that the Board of Social Responsibility is the best of all possible places for this work in training and advising ministers and others on health and healing, then we'll happily accept that. +But I don't think that will be the finding of the assembly council. +Thank you. +Yes? +Please +er eleven ninety. +Could I ask a couple of questions about the section on family matters Moderator? +Erm I'd like to thank the er the Board for this er helpful part of the report. +First of all I'm looking at page three hundred and fifty in the blue book. +At the end of paragraph four three two. +Er where the report has been pointing out the cost, not just in financial terms, but in terms of, of hurt and unhappiness of a home breaking up, a family breaking up. +I'd like to ask the convenor erm how would he have er replied to a young woman who came to me fairly recently whose husband had just left home by mutual agreement, and for the sake of their children and er she said to me after he had gone er that the home was a much happier place now that there was, they had been freed from the tension that they had been going through in a very difficult time. +The children are no longer worried about dad coming home drunk or arguments between er husband and wife. +Erm I appreciate the point that the Board's making about the hurt caused by broken families but how pastorally would one respond to this case? +Thank you. +Yes reply. +Moderator nine eight O, the convenor of the study group on family matters. +Erm naturally that is a problem that er exists and er people presumably divorce because of the pressures and problems that are there. +If I could lead you from that paragraph on page three fifty over to page three six four page three six four, one two three, four paragraphs from the top it's ab it's the second of two paragraphs that begins the Board affirms the church's th that Christ teaches that marriage is special and divorce is not the way he would wish for his people and then this sentence no-one would wish to condens condemn someone to stay in a marriage which is beyond redeeming. +We are not trying to say that divorce is never the answer. +What we are trying to argue for is to try to prevent the cost, the pain, the hurt that is experienced after a divorce by alerting people to the fact that a divorce won't solve all their problems, it will transfer one set of problems for another and our great concern in this report is to go back one step, not just to speak to people who are experiencing hurt, but in the hope that we can say something before it reaches the stage that it had reached when they came to you. +Thank you. +on the se separate part of the report please Moderator. +Erm looking now at page three hundred and fifty seven er paragraph seven three two oh seven three one and seven three two, page three hundred and fifty seven where the report makes the point that er when legal proceedings are entered into they tend to create further barriers and make it m less and less likely that th there can be conciliation between estranged partners erm and paragraph seven three two points out a growing need fo or speaks of a growing need for conciliation. +Erm what place erm does the convenor see being made in the legal processes to make available to estranged couples the opportunity for erm voluntary conciliation between the parties? +Erm i is there opportunity in our legal system at the moment or are there movements that way? +Moderator I think er Mr wants us to go back to the words reconciliation. +Conciliation is used in this technical sense when the couple have reached the stage where they've agreed there is no possibility of reconciliation and they are now seeking to make arrangements, for example, about er the children and about money. +Er and so you you're question is a good one, what about reconciliation? +And our great concern is that people in Scotland should know that the possibility of reconciliation exists. +They don't about that when they're in the middle of a dramatic crisis and they've fallen out and perhaps the only thing they know about is how to go about getting a divorce and you see a lawyer and so on. +Well we want to say there is hope. +As Christians we've discovered about reconciliation in our own lives and we know the need of it in lots of areas in human relationships. +Erm in terms of er forcing people to have it, well you can't er somebody has to want to, to look at the possibility so that we would er er let people be aware there are, there are secular organizations like er er in England it's Re er er it's Relate, er marriage guidance, Scotland, still called that in Scotland. +The there are parish ministers who are willing to listen and long before it reaches the stage of lawyers and divorce. +Does that answer the question? +Thank you. +Thank you very much. +Yes? +Eric one one O two. +I would like to ask the convenor, with relation to one three on page three hundred and forty concerning the Christian ideal of marriage why not mention is menti is made there of the importance of the family worshipping and praying together. +Erm if I knew the pages in the report as well as I try to know my bible I could point you to another place Moderator where er + +Come in. +Oh something that Dr did you not want to speak to the team about John ? +Yes I did. +They're on line one.. + +This is old history project tape number two of Mr of Ipswich, in Suffolk. +My name is the date is the second of March nineteen eighty seven. +This is interview number five of Ipswich Docks. +Do you remember anything happening during the war down the docks? +Yes we had er ships wh we, they call erm these liberty ships come in from America loaded with bombs and when they moved them up there, well they call them down here they call them liberty ships and er the bombs were loaded, so they used to erm put all timber between each layer of bombs and they had proper carpenters who would fix all these and when the dockers went down, they put these bombs out, cos they weren't detonated,the detonators were in the fore end of the ship, right down the lower hull and erm the bombs were loaded into open trucks loaded into, well the dockers they thought it was dangerous, cos we had the Fire Brigade, that's the fire service down there and standing by with the fire engines and dockers they wanted the, they want a shilling, I think it was a shilling a day extra, well a shilling extra something like that and there they got it the shilling or extra pound , cos us crane drivers we weren't on the same par as them, so we asked for a shilling. +Oh no, no, no, we couldn't. up in the crane, the dockers on the ground, they wouldn't give it to us, right we say we ain't gonna take any more out, they, we got the shilling. +You got it? +Yeah, we got it and another time you see, when we wer when we used to be crane drivers, when we first started crane driving, the job for a crane driver was to do anything, you were a crane driver but if your crane wanted painting you would paint it yourself, chip to paint it. +If a docker, you got to help the dockers down the hold, if you ain't got the crane driving to do, you had to go in the warehouse if there ain't nothing to do. +But course now the present day they don't do none of that, they drive the crane and only the crane, they don't even clean the crane. +And you actually had to maintain your own +And we had to maintain our own crane. +crane paint it? +Paint it, yeah, chip and paint off the top of the jib. +What ? +Chip and paint up the top of the jib. +Chip it? +Yeah, chip all the rust off. +Oh, I see. +And red lead it and then used to be off the top of the jib. +Well you, you got on the cranes down there, you go up fifty feet and then you had to go up another fifty feet to your top of your jib. +So you can say you're about one hundred and five feet up in the air. +Needed a head for heights. +And you never had no, no, no safety belts or nothing, just stand there and paint and stand on a piece of angle , if you only want the laugh out of it, cos the cranes down there are the swan lift cranes. +Yeah and y +What do you mean by swan lift cranes? +Well the cr the jib went up and then it came down like that, well that swan neck on the cr that used to be what they call level oven, cos as y as you lift your crane out, so this part would come up. +The end? +The end would come up and, and keep your load level on the ground you see, otherwise if you were a straight jib, they'd come down and further you come down the further, the lower your load get. +Oh that, that was a lovely crane. +Otherwise what they got some of the latest cranes out down there,you had to come off the barrel, go up the jib , come down again, then up again. +Why was that? +Well, cos that's to keep the level oven, you see, what they call a level oven crane, but the swan neck crane, that was one wire right from the barrel, right over to your load. +So the jib was disjointed? +That's right yes, yeah that bit that was just like what they call a swan neck, just like the swan and that was like that and so it kept me at load level, they were built by and some of the best cranes I've ever known on the dock . +What were they used mainly for? +They were , they were for grabbing stuff out for and stone cold general cargo, anything. +What sort of cargoes came in though? +Oh we used to have phosphate and sulphur , potash, coal, granite you name it anything, general cargo we've had, loaded everything, even dead bodies, we sent, there was one young, one young person, he got drowned up the coast there and they and he had to go back to Holland and they brought that from out the warehouse and put it on the stern of our ship, his coffin, they sent that back and they erm export er pigs to Poland, all live pigs, pedigree pigs. +How were they loaded? +Into these, just a crate, and they used to get the old pigs and they used to shove 'em in there, shove the trap down, and they used to load them on the ships, they went back to Poland. +Did anybody travel with them to look after them? +Oh yes, they were all fed properly, looked after alright, but they all, they told me they were all pedigrees but I doubt cos I don't know whether that's the truth, but they reckon in Poland when things were bad, when they unload them, they'd make some excuse that one of these pigs got out and run away and course they used to catch it er, somewhere they used to catch it and that was their fee then. +For food? +Yeah, they would, let the bake it we used to Danish foods and cos we used to have a Danish er, we used to have erm Polish ship come in one week and an English ship come in the next week and the, the bacon was just pigs were all killed, wrapped in sacking and tied with string,and they used to be laid in the hold like that. +Well after you discharged the ship cos all the blood was there and erm they used to have to wash them holds all out then and this bacon was put on open lorries and taken to London, put in the refrigerator. +Now today, cos they all, and all come over in container, refrigerated containers. +How did they keep it cool on the boat? +Pardon? +How did they keep it cool on the boat? +Well they refrig like refrigerate the hold, the hold was refrigerated, but after handling the smell was re terrible. +Was it? +Yeah. +Did you ever have any of the bacon? +No, I didn't, no. +Never could fancy it, never could fancy it. +I know some people did but no. +See during the war we had, we had a lot of er minesweepers down here and they were all in these trawlers, fishing trawlers that's all they were and they used to go minesweeping off the coast, from here to Yarmouth and then, and Yarmouth and Lowestoft they had theirs, they used to like meet and cos they used to be out four days minesweeping and in four days. +Cos they they used to come in here for water and bunkers you see. +Water and? +Bunkers, coal, they all coal furnace you see,and we er they'd come in and we used to fill them up with coal, whatever they wanted lot of that went over the side coal, beautiful coal that was. +How did it go over the side? +Well when you had your grab, you used to lower it on the deck of the, deck of the erm trawler and when you open your grab, that much, a lot of it hold up in the grab you see, you couldn't get so of course when you did take your grab up, lot of it went over the side. +Did they get charged for that? +Oh, no ch that was government money weren't it? +Government? +All government money and when my father was, after the, after the war he had a little old dredger, little grab dredger and they went along the quay dredging it all up and er, course they took so much out the hole, scrubbed it, all good coal again. +What they done, ooh they had one or two bags of that. +Yeah. +What other cargoes would you have to unload as a crane driver? +Crane driver, television tubes, light bulbs, do you know these bulbs er, they used to come er, we used t they used to be made here, they used to be sent over to Holland and the brass bit used to be put in and the element inside and they used to go over there in cardboard boxes all loose and there used to be hundreds of them broken, they didn't, they didn't worry about it, as long as they, they reckon that as long as they get twenty five percent a hold they were satisfied and they were just in ordinary boxes, no paper in or nothing, just all loose. +And they went over just to be fitted with the +Just fitted with the brass, that was that was. +All stuff, cos then we, they imported a lot of er razors and erm all different television stuff and we had a lot of beer come in from erm Germany, lot of beer come the that stuff, that's a Dutch beer . +I can't think of the name of the other German beer but the roll-on roll-off'll be out in the dock, cos we had a roll-on roll- off in the dock at all +When did that come into use? +Well I would say er about ten year ago, cos I was stevedoring then stevedore and erm I used to go up there, and I was very friendly with the old skipper there. +I was going to ask you about your crane driving, how long were you a crane driver? +Well I was a crane driver from nineteen thirty two till I went stevedoring, what time would that be, oh about nineteen fifty five I reckon. +Now stevedore, what did you have to do as a stevedore? +Well I used to do, what you're doing see, you're in charge of loading the ship, see but they did, first of all they, they, we had er, we had a foreman stevedore, then we had, and then erm we had the stevedores and the dockers they went away on these courses, down to ones, they used to go to Southampton and some went to Hull, but when they came back, they called theirselves stevedores, so course our harbourmaster, he say that's not right, they're stevedores, well you gotta be all called foremen stevedores, so Captain come to me, he said, what are we gonna call you ? +I decided we better call you chief foreman stevedore, and that's what they call me, chief foreman, so that's what they call 'em today,chief foreman stevedore. +And what did that involve? +involve me I used to get out in the morning, get up in the morning and be down there at six, see how many ships and see how many what I want, so many dockers on each ship, sometimes they'd want say six, sometimes eight. +There might be another house foreman want a man who would stand on the house and and they want a checker, so I'd go all these men for these different ships, that was my job, being chief foreman stevedore. +Where would you draw these men from? +From the, from the pool, see there used to be a, there used to be a pool, near lock gates, that's where they used to be. +One time that used to be further in the dock and I used to be let the erm, the manager know, the pool manager, cos at one time before the war, dockers were erm casual and when the war started, then they thought theirself, right we're gonna make er dockers more or less permanent, so they all come under the Ipswich Dock Commission then. +Instead of having they had to come through the Dock Commission all of the men, they wanted so and so men for that boat, they used to come through to me. +Before that though, and had their own men +Had their own men +unload the boats? +unload the boats, yes. +They +They were employed directly by +That's right but they all came +? +They used to work say one week and have about a month off or go on the dole for a month. +So then what happened was, did the Dock Commission say you can't have your own men any more? +That's right they had to go on a rota. +Run by the Dock Commission? +Run by the Dock Commission. +See the dockers then all got together and they said right so many men for that job, so many for that job and that didn't matter who they were, they had to their job, all the way round the dock. +Whether they wanted to go on that job or not? +Whether they want to go or not, they take their turn and the employer had to pay a percentage into the pool what those men earned, so when those men hadn't work at all they drew their money from the National Dock Labour Board. +Is this where the National Dock Labour Board came into existence? +That's how how they come into existence, yes he was a man what introduced that. +When was this? +Oh that's er, I would say about nineteen forty roughly I'd say about nineteen forty that came in, might have been before that. +Before that then if they were ill +They get nothing. +Could they not get any welfare benefit? +No. +No they get nothing, they'd get, all they went on the dole, well they used to get, they used to get erm, say yeah well you would get welfare benefit what we call the club, you go on the club and you see used t I, my, apparently had a private club, you could have both you see you had the private club and you got so much from the government, the National Health. +The dockers even today, see they're still got the, still got the erm National Dock Labour Board but now the employers wanna do away with it. +Do they? +They wanna do away with that now making these men redundant. +Now they're not doing so much that many thousands of pounds, that lot 'em took it some didn't. +But they'll still need men won't they? +They'll still need men, yes. +They can't do away with them altogether? +They won't do away with them, no but cos they, they're trying to do away with the National Dock Labour Board and come back to the old system. +What just the having casuals again? +Casuals or employing their own men,what they want I suppose +Why did the work, why was the work so casual, was it because boats +Well you could never, you could never rely on shipment, cos one time you'd get a lot of shipment and the next time you might be six weeks and get no shipment, so who's gonna pay them their money? +Mm +That's the reason they brought in this here, decasualized the docks. +But, why did the Dock Commission decide to make it compulsory for the men to be employed by them and not by the firm? +Well no, this was, this was a government thing. +That was the government +It was a government thing it wasn't the Dock Commission. +See they said righto, the employer has gotta be the Dock Commission. +They, they haven't gotta be or or . +No of the port is the Dock Commission. +And what was the reaction to the Dock Authority over this? +Oh, they didn't mind. +They didn't mind? +Oh, they didn't mind they were getting their money they, they were getting paid for when they were going home. +See they used to get the, they used t what they call they used to report for work at say quarter past seven in the morning and then they be at work at half past seven, but now of course they don't now, they, I think they start about eight o'clock now. +If there's no work for 'em they can go home for the day. +And they get paid? +And they get paid, they say about used to, used to be seven and six pence , something like that, but er course today that's different altogether. +So really that was an improvement for the dockers, wasn't it? +Oh, goodness, yes. +Dock paying for them. +That was, yes. +Big improvement. +So when you say you used to go up to the pool. +The pool is where everyone used to collect? +That's right, yeah. +What would you do then? +I'd, I would go through to the pool man and say right, I want so many men for the Rotterdam, I want six men for purpose. +Cliff Quay, I want four men South West Quay on the coal boat for boat. +I want eight men on a coal boat at Quay. +He'd send them then, he every dock was numbered from one to hundred and thirty and he'd say righto, number one so and so, number five so and so and of course when they come back to the pool, they'd go on the end of the rota. +See so after men finished they would, there'd be a steady turnround all the time. +So they all have to be quite adaptable +Yeah, they can do anything. +Carrying timber, making timber, carrying bags or today. +None of it. +Did any of them ever resent having to do particular jobs? +Some, yeah some did. +Oh yes I know one man there now, well he's so dumb he'd rather go down the hold, than he would do marking the pencil and paper. +Course he can't do pencil and paper. +He's so thick, you know he'll say right I'll go down the hold, I'll do the humping, what they call humping, he'll do that, loading these slings or bags, rather than him standing there and say well ten bags in that sling, put ten down, he couldn't do that, so he'd rather go down the hold that's happened. +Did you prefer, prefer being a stevedore to driving the crane? +Oh, yes I did, oh yes, it was more of a job, it was,. +In what way? +I had more responsibility. +you u u use your brain a bit more, see now if er they used to come to me, my brother was one, he'd come to me and he'd say, right I've got a heavy lift, so will you come up here and sling it for me but we had to put the slings round the heavy lift, say, I say right I'll come up and another time we had a railway carriage come down like that'll be shipped abroad, old railway carriage. +Well we had er, we took out all the gear for that, so I knew a lot, being a crane driver I'd know what gear I wanted but a lot of these stevedores what are on there now, they were lorry drivers and they ain't got a clue what they do, so there part of my job meant I'd go round and give advice. +Oh, I see, now you would draw the men you need productively and go off and get the job done? +That's right, yes. +See like erm l l l lorries and all like that, caravans, I mean I, caravans, we used to load the small ones and er we used to have two bars go underneath with a bit of wood on top and we used to have one hand on one end while they cos that was a damn nuisance. +So I thought, in my wisdom I thought, there was easier way than that,wh at one bar and I had one rope come under the draw bar with a tow bar, so I said right one bit of rope, one bar, so all the docker gotta do now is take the bar out, take the rope off, that was alright and you could stow 'em on the, on the deck . +They were all happy about that. +And the Dock Commission didn't mind you changing the +more I did I never got anything for but that was easy for the dockers and easy for me. +Mm mm. +I mean, one time,for gear, then they don't, we don't make slice ropes at one time. +They don't slice 'em now. +And you had to that yourself? +We had to do that, the stevedores had to do that, my first of stevedoring. +Make rope strops. +We used to get a collar of rope, manilla rope, put it on to a truck and used to stretch it out first and then cut off the lengths. +We always stretched the rope first, before you spliced it. +And what was that used for? +Well for slings, getting bags out of the hold see the whole job was so interesting, when you were doing these jobs that was interesting all the time. +Did that take you on to different boats from +Pardon? +Did that take you on to different boats from +Oh, goodness yes +different parts of the world? +I used to, no I only went away on er, we only went to Rotterdam once, that's all. +I had to go over there just to see how dockers worked over there, to see if I could improve it here, well I couldn't because dockers wouldn't do what they, they were doing in Holland. +Why was that? +Well they had one man in the hold and they used to have a fork lift in the hold, in Holland, with one man and he could do that job and they sent one man ashore, well over here we had four men in the hold and two men ashore. +Well the dockers wouldn't have it here. +No, had to keep this four men instead of two. +Why wouldn't they? +They wouldn't do it, no. +Why? +Oh, well er doing away with four men weren't it? +Mm +You see well they were employing two over in Holland, we were employing six. +Have things changed these days? +Oh they changed on account of all containers you see. +Yes. +So eventually the they had to give in in the end. +Oh they do yes, well because nowadays, because they got more men on each job now than they really want. +I mean that there's half of them go down the dock now, they don't do anything. +Don't they? +No, but they, they get the money for it. +In the early days, back to the early days, what sort of boats would come into Ipswich Docks? +Would they be sailing or steam? +Er +Going back to +sails +your early days down the docks. +Sails, well we had one or two sailing ships in my early days come up but the majority are steam. +What sort of sailing ships were they? +Well three masts, four masts, ships +but we didn't have many of them, we only had about two or three come up and they came from Australia +Did they? +for a week, and th that in the holds then they were all, that was, we was hauling sacks, what they used to call erm and they used to bring 'em out, out of the hold on a, on a winch, and put them on the scale and weigh 'em and that's what they used to call catch weights. +Catch weights? +Catch weights, so don't matters what it was but that man who was weighing them he got no brains, if one was overweight and go down, the next one gotta be underweight and he'd take that off that and put it on that, he was so quick,wh that's what he, he was a good checker, they were good men then +did you say? +job they ever done. +That was the only thing he ever did? +That's the only thing he ever done to go and catch weight on all wire. +Catch or ketch? +Catch, catch, catch weights. +K E +No I think you'd call it a C +catch +catch yes +C A T C H +Yeah +catch weight +Catch weights +And it was up to him to adjust the weight +Adjust the weight from one to the other, one sack to the other. +Would they be unloaded quickly? +Well, pretty fair, because then they used to go down Botterman's Bay and where they used to er, the dock was in the hold, that was all loose grain and they used to put four bushels to the , so they used a bushel skip like that,wh which was a wooden one with a handle each side and they'd go into the wheat +Was that about two foot four? +That's right and they'd do into the wheat and they'd on they'd smoothed off, one man'd had a big sack there, they hold her in, they had this one they build one in, he'd go one in, he'd go one and he'd go one, four, four bushels of the corn and they used to tow it up, heave it out on the scale and they used to have a little old hand basin like that, with a handle on, take a little out or put a little in,and then them men down the hold, them ones, then he'd do so many on the left and they'd change over, he'd do that way. +They never kept the same place twice. +Why d why did they change over? +Well that was a lot easier I mean you'd get used to doing one way and that man, so that's the reason they changed over, so it was more equal. +Mm stop the shoulders aching I would think. +Well it used to be carried on the back and . +They'd carry the sack on their back? +On the back, the bushel, yes +The bushel? +The corn. +Do you know what the equivalent of is today? +Not now I don't no. +No, I don't perhaps the children +I don't. +much the same now erm, what do you call it now,in that big all the rest of it now well. +I mean looking at a book and see the distance between, in there they give you the distance between Leeds, Ipswich, Leicester and Scotland and then you come to kilometres and +That's right. +that's hard job to find out what to do it is for me any rate +Mm +I'm too, getting too old for that. +The grain that came in was that heading for the mills? +That all, that's all for the grain and then of course we used to import a lot at locust. +Locust, locust beans they'd be about that length, they used to be just like a brown bean, they were dry. +Who imported those? +Er they used to import that. +Do you know what they used them for? +Locust beans they used to be animal feed I think. +Mm mm. +And there's children going to school yeah,that be lovely, used to eat this locust. +Was it sweet? +Well it was in a sense. +You take this erm, that's like that's like er corn flakes. +I've known when they used to deal with the flake, what they call the Flake Mill, that's er down at erm Eagle Mill down near the lock gates when they were making this here which were like corn flakes for the, for the animals and and they were dropped like this, be nice and warm and +You were allowed in the dock with children? +Yeah, well that, that was all open you see that was all open +It still is today isn't it? +It is still open today it ain't in some docks. +No. +No, but it is in the fish dock. +Oh dear oh dear. +No the experience has been very good you know, going through life all that time. +What sort of changes are you aware of in the dock? +Changes? +Over the years? +Oh dear, well I could say er work has got a lot easier for a start, a lot easier and they ain't as, they ain't as, there ain't so much night work as there used to be. +I mean er scrap iron, I mean I've done that erm where we've loaded scrap iron ships but they don't do none of that now and when you load scrap iron put so much in on the floor and then dockers would pull it apart and then there'd then,mean you gotta go and pull a lot of that scrap iron out, load that off, well that the stevedore would say. +Do you want a couple of hours overtime tonight? +So we'd go and work a couple of hours overtime or all night the scrap iron. +It all depends on the scrap merchant, like they used to send a lot of scrap iron erm from Ipswich to Germany just before the war, well they used to send they reckon they send to Danzig +Mm +and then try and ship again into Germany. +That's what they reckon they used to do but he, I mean he was an old Jew, he was but he was, he was to the Germans. +Did that stop then during the war? +Pardon? +That stopped obviously during the war? +That stopped, oh yes and the last, the last erm scrap iron we loaded was er I think the, the Japanese they bought the ships, these old tr old tramps, they bought them. +Tramps? +Tramps, yeah, yeah old car +Why did you call them the tramp ship? +Well they was an old cargo boat, that weren't like a naval boat, they don't call it now, they don't call a naval boat a tramp, well the other ones cos they're faster and th th the old tramp, tramps it was like an old tramp on the road and erm because we used to go very slow, well th the Japanese after the war, they bought these old ships up, we loaded them with scrap iron and they took the whole lot over to Japan, and cut the whole ship up scrap iron. +Do you know we had bales of, bales of til tins all pressed together as big as that machine, yeah and they'd dump into the ship and they used to have magnets, put 'em into a net and these er bales of tins, any old tins, they used to find, used to go in there, we used to tip 'em, we used to tip them into the hold they cut the ship right up and that that's what we're getting back in motor cars now. +Shouldn't be a bit surprised, and the amount of er stuff that used to come from er these ordnance places in the army. +Cor, there was boxes of brand new tools come down there, spanners, and they used to be the, like these, like a big chopper, well they used to have couple of all with erm breezed up with erm like greaseproof paper over 'em, bag 'em up into the holds, guns, there was guns, what done with the guns they hit the er, just near the barrel or the trigger,th they used to flatten them out so they couldn't use 'em but they all went in the ships bombs, or little shells they used to find in there, all scrap iron. +And this was all being shipped out of the dock? +Shipped out out of to Japan. +They went to +Mm mm. +and I reckon we now getting them back into motor cars +Motor cars +shouldn't be a bit surprised. +When you were talking earlier on about the bombs and the detonator coming in, where were they stored, at the docks or were they +No they right away. +They went straight off? +Yes, straight off, yeah, +Where would they go to? +I don't know where they went, to these aerodromes or not, I should think so +Mm +Cos I mean they were, they were, they had so many you know, that was a lot +Were there are lot +Oh oh cos I mean they use today they haven't got these what they call are common users on the railway now. +A common user was er, just an open truck with two doors one each side and they used to put a tarpaulin over the top. +And then was, is the general way of transport +Oh yes on the railway oh yes it was. +Was the railway used a lot for that? +Eh? +Was the railway used a lot for that? +Oh it was then, yes, now it ain't that's not used once a week now, cos you got all these containers, see it's still the railway and Felixstowe cos you got these here big freight trailer go on now. +The the engines that pulled the trucks, were they steam? +Yes, steam then they got over to diesel. +Mm, so it sounded quite a dangerous place to be with cranes moving about and trains all over the place. +Yes. +Oh yeah I mean you take now the erm, you could say nineteen twenty six bloke, I remember an old union bloke, he was on the railway and er, when they cleaned the fire out , cos he used to get all the out, and er these here firemen on cool it with a that's when they first started to nationalize the docks and he said well, they er, he said waste that he said when nationalization come in, well there was a lot more wasted then after that. +Was there? +Yes. +So when was it nationalized? +Oh I don't know, just wouldn't know, just after the war, or during the war, yeah during the war, nationalize the railways. +Mm +Yes, now it's al all back the same way again now. +Now the boatmen they used to erm the name, the family of a name of , and the old man, the grandfather his name was and then they had three sons who were boatmen, one was called Arthur John, one had a nickname of Snowball, the other one's name was George and they used to er, some of them at times used to row from the lock gates out to the Cork Lightship together to get a boat, so they made sure of roping that boat in at, at er in the dock or at Cliff Quay and course they used to get the captain of the ship to sign er a bill and they used to take that to the, to the shipping agent and then he'd pay 'em the money. +Course they got away with income tax out of that because they weren't, they weren't much erm to do with income tax that time, I mean my tax at that time of the year was about, at that time was about four pound a year when I was erm, when I was working and you only paid income tax once a year. +It weren't, it weren't pay as you earn then. +How did they collect it once a year? +Well they used to send you,th they used to get the returns from your employer and then they'd send you the demand note in, so then +put that to one side did you? +so you had to put that to one side. +Do you think anybody ever spent too much +That's in the oh a lot of people did, oh yes, lot of people spent the money but I was one of the fortunate ones I had a little bit left because I mean I was, er I was very lucky myself, I mean I had a decent job at that time from time I left school and when I was on the dredging plant, I mean you take er in nineteen twenty five when er a schoolboy left school, his money was about ten shillings a week as an errand boy but I was one of the fortunate being a cabin boy on the dredger, I was getting thirty five shillings a week which was a lot of money and then after a few months they, I, they wanted another deck hand, so of course I went on there on four pound a week and then I was well off. +That was, that was what the crew were getting four pound a week and course my father that time he done away with a cabin boy so I had to do more or less two jobs, see if I weren't working on deck I'd go down and clean the cabins and that's how, that's how we kept the money going course then after a few years when they got to the finish about nineteen thirty one then the harbourmaster turned round and he ruc reduced our wages five shillings a week, so we were getting three pound fifteen a week. +That was three pound fifteen shillings wasn't it? +Three pound fifteen shillings yeah and that's how, that's how the work went at that time but as I say these boatmen erm they used t they used to sit down on lock gates day in and day out and didn't have a ship to come in but I've kno kno known them to row down the river at high tide or it's before high tide and there'd be another erm, there'd be other boatmen there, one was called , he went down, he used to go down and get 'em going, there used to be a race between these two families or the and the first one got the boat, the first one roped it in you see, or wh what we call roping in,moor mooring the ship up, that was +Did they actually have to bring it up the estuary? +What they, yes, what they done, they used to have a large long pull with a hook on and attached to a rope and as the ship was coming up to the river, they would throw this here pole on to a ship with a hook and then pay the rope out and then get towed up to the quay, the ship wouldn't stop for them to pick them up, pick that boat +the boat would tow them? +Yes, the st the er cargo boat would tow the small boat cos the small boat was only about twelve foot long, twelve to sixteen feet, all different sizes rowing boats then. +But the boatman's job was to moor the the +To moor the ship up into th th the quay. +ship? +So they used to know how to get there before +That's right, yes +The only people what did have a motor in that, at that particular time was the harbourmaster of Pinn Mill cos they always used to call er er er one bloke down there who used to moor the ships up at Bottoman's Bay and er th th th he used to get a retainer from the Ipswich Dock Commission and all he w all he had to do was make sure that was clear of, for shipping, if there was a yacht in the way he'd go and tell them to move and he was what the we used to call him Pinn Mill Harbourmaster. +His name was er his name. +Then after him they had an, a fella come from I think he finished up as Pinn Mill Harbourmaster, whether they got one now I don't know. +And he would organize the boats in, just in Bottoman's Bay and ? +He would he'd moored ships up in Bottoman's Bay and that's when, yeah he had a motor boat then to do that job. +Who would pay him? +Well the agent, that be either or any agent who, who the ship belonged to, see they'd, they'd get through, no doubt they'd get through to the merchants and er they'd find out who the agent is and once they knew the agents well it was plain sailing wasn't it? +Mm so they were all +So tha tha at that time, I mean they might get as much as three pound for mooring one ship up. +Really? +But that had to be shared between the number of men +Exactly oh yes that was shared between the men what erm, there used to be two men so they'd get er share the three pound between them or five pound whatever it was. +And did they, they must have had lean times if they sat around and waited for a boat, one didn't come in some days may be. +They didn't get anything at all. +But they all sat down there waiting? +All sat down there waiting for a for a ship to come in. +I knew men old he was a chain smoker, he always used to smoke Woodbines and as one went out he'd light the other one er ou on it, he wouldn't use matches, no he'd, he'd light one cigarette off the other. +Would have been cheaper to have used matches. +It would have done but he, he used to be what we called a proper chain smoker, oh he must have smoked hundreds of Woodbines in a week, must have been hundreds, that was his life. +And did they have any other form of income other than +No,they might be on the dole or what they used to call the Board of Guardians something like that. +So they looked forward to a boat coming in? +They looked, they looked forward to a boat coming in. +I mean I know in my time when I was a crane driver if they, if one of them didn't turn up dow down at Cliff Quay they'd come along to a crane driver and they'd say, take a rope for us will you. +Cos they used t what they used to do in the small boat, they used to coil so much in the then they'd row to the quay and then the they'd run ashore hid past the line and pull a river and put the bollard for 'em and then cos they'd turn round they might give us a quid for a drink you see +Oh I see +so then they'd be about three pound or four pound in pocket and that's how they, that's how we used to help one another but once they get one rope ashore they could do it, the job see but of course there's no boatmen today now, they call theirself boatmen but there ain't one of the buggers going in a boat, I don't suppose they could row a boat now. +They still, they still moor them though do they? +They s moor them but they're employed by the Ipswich Port Authority, the boatmen, these other men weren't. +So they had to,the they were purely working for themselves? +I mean the man, the man what introduced that I think er was Captain the deputy harbourmaster I think, he introduced that. +When was that approximately? +Oh that was approximately about erm, well I'm talking about now in my time it must be over twenty year ago, when he introduced that and the simple reason was there was an argument between the deputy harbourmaster and the boatmen which are the cos they used t it all happened over a ship called used to be a collier, used to run here regular and that used to discharge so much coal at Cliff Quay, then it used to go into the dock at Tolwells Quay and finish unloading because it used to bring two or three different lots of coal, it was a four hold ship, she had four holds, and there'd be one hold for the chemical works and perhaps there'd be three holds for and that se +Wh what happened over that one then, you said th +Well cos I letting the ships go and they, that was a night time and course I don't know what happened over, over the argument but anyhow these boatmen they lost their job, they n never been happened since cos the then the Dock Commission took over the erm roping the ships in, come under Ipswich Dock Commission. +Were they paid just for tying the boats up or for bringing them up the estuary as well? +No just for tying the boats up, that's all +tying them up but when they went out to the end of the estuary that was just a case of get there first to get the job? +Oh yes, I mean if they were going out to let go of the ropes. +Oh would they, they'd have to +Yes, they'd, they'd get paid twice, oh for letting 'em go and roping 'em in, I mean when a ship was swinging there's somebody, I mean when a ship was swinging at Cliff Quay, there's somebody gotta let go of the erm, the spring what they're swinging on. +The +When the ship was swinging round, they'd go down the river,th that here rope was still on the bollard so to throw it off +Oh I see +when the ship was swinging round and that's what they do tod still do that today. +If the ship was leaving the port the boatmen have gotta be there to let go of the ropes. +But they're now employed by the I P A? +They're employed now by the I P A, now, so they're on a regular basis,th th th boatmen today what they call boatmen today, as I say they're not boatmen, they're just ropemen I call it. +Did, did the boatmen more or less live with their boats? +Oh no, no, no, no the boatmen they used to g they used to be go home one stay there the other lot, others go home, they knew within reason when the ship was due. +Oh I see but th they live in the dock area? +Well as I say dock area, they might live about half a mile away that was all. +so they could hear a boat coming in +They'd hear it th th they wouldn't erm they'd know through the agent, when the ships were coming they used to make it their business to go and find out you see but today th they even got telephones on the houses now so they can call 'em out. +So just go down there as and when they're needed? +There was, there was no telephones then, I mean t +Must have been a bit haphazard for you +Oh it was yes, I mean y when you take now erm er a boatman, I mean, and he, he like today well they ring up, I mean today I know the Ipswich Port Authority they lay the phone on the houses and they pay for it for 'em +Do they? +see so if th if they get time off and they want extra men, they phone 'em up or somebody with a boat got bloke in the erm radio tower, cos you got a radio tower on the dock now which every ship that come into port or leave the port have to go through the radio tower and that man's employed twenty four hours a day, seven days a week. +I think it's about, I don't know whether it's three or four, these men in the radio tower which at that day cos you'd never had a, a radio tower. +How did they used to get the messages in then that they were coming in? +Pardon? +How did they get the message down to the port here that a boat would be coming in? +What years ago? +Mm +Well because they used to know through the agent and of course them, them would have to hang, row down the river and hang about +and would hang about for two or thr I mean when I was on the dredger them men would st they would come aboard the dredger and wait there, do nothing until the boat came up the river. +And they'd come on your dredger and wait with you? +And they'd come up and wait them but I'd make them a cup of coffee or a cup of cocoa or something like that, there weren't coffee then cos we couldn't afford coffee we used to have cocoa or make them a mug of tea. +It's the other way round now cocoa's more expensive than coffee +Yeah it is yeah that's right, that's what used to happen, yeah. +Were the agents based at the dock? +Oh no they were based in the town, at buildings, used to be at the buildings. +Then they +Mm buildings, where's that? +Well that's at the top of , +Oh I know it yes +and +yes +their office used to be there, now they got a place on the dock +near the lock gates. +Were they the only agent or were there other agents? +No there's they were, they were called but they were agents for their own ships. +Mm, were they on the dock? +And they were on the dock. +These ones up in the town, did the boatmen used to have to go up the town to find +Oh yes yeah the skippers, the skippers would go up the town cos every time a ship used to come in they got, they got to take the their papers up to the agent, what the papers were I don't really know might be a manifest or something like that, what they used to do I mean then you had erm and you had different agents now there's more agents than ever now. +There's so many different things changed today as well, it's impossible really to erm keep up with it now today I would think. +Would you say it's better? +Well I would say it's, yes, better, cos mean with th with th these erm containers you see now I mean, we had about say ten years ago we had a man here he used to deal with the all general cargo, all loose cargo from Beirut and all the Mediterranean ports but course now you got the trouble there now that's a, that's a cargo that's, what's fell away. +Going back to the agents up in the town, the boatmen to get information about a ship coming in they would have to go up to the town +They would have to go up to the town, yes +and find out? +and find out, yes. +So was there very often a race up to the town to get there first? +No I think they'd got to a point where, you know, if you, if you were about erm, they made sure they were the first ones there like the and they, I think they more or less recognized by the merchants they, they were the boatmen. +Yeah, in the know. +In the, in the know in my time and right. +Were there any other rival boatmen, people trying to get in on the scene? +Oh yes, they, I say there was one man and the , they used to try and get in if they could. +Was there any erm aggression between them? +No, never, no. +They just +I mean at that time say perhaps go in the pub the or the or the , I mean there used to be so many pubs round the er, the dock area then, I mean you take the , and erm then there used to be the erm there was all them pubs round the dock then,noth one or two more but I can't re oh the was another one. +And they were situated on the dock? +They were all situated on the dock and the is now what they call the +? +They call it now they just er they just made into er erm another pub, a posh pub. +Oh yes I saw that in the paper. +yeah. +In the Evening Star +Well it used to be, that's where the , that's where the used to be. +And the used a little further past the and then there was another one further up near Cranfield well I can't remember the name of that. +I can't cos they used to use that a lot. +I mean men at the dockers that day they used to drink and drink heavy. +Did they? +They did, I mean the docker at that time of day he'd take a gallon o beer into work with him. +In a in the old stone jar. +They were allowed to drink at work? +Oh yes, there weren't no argument about that, if they didn't they won't do the bloody work. +They wouldn't, I mean they were old men +Bet it was thirsty work anyway wasn't it? +Yeah that was I mean them, men, men were working like we was talking about a little while ago about head bags +Oh yes, what's a head bag? +see but we had a head bag where they used to fold a sack in half or put one part through the other and put over the head. +A lot o lot of these here dockers used to erm have 'em made out of calico. +And why did they do that? +And tha when they were carrying er sacks of er fertiliser, corn, anything like that. +For a bit of padding or protection? +No it used to be just the sacks stop the dust and go down the back and I've known the time what er, when they needed a regular gang of dockers, if they went to work on er, on er Monday morning with a dirty head bag on made of calico, they'd have to buy the beer cos they had, if they ain't got a clean head bag on or a cl clean skullcap, there used to be a little old calico skullcap they used to put on just to keep the dust out the hair and all like that. +Did they make these themselves? +They made them themselves or the wives did. +Yeah, and it was their tradition was it that if one turned up with a dirty +If, if one turned up with a dirty one they have to buy the beer that's how they used to be. +Then, course then they used to hav when the man stood in green, I knew a fella named which we was talking about a little while ago and he had a pair of lady's stockings which he used to put over his shoes to stop the grain going in and some of these people in the and , they used to have erm, like er string soles with like calico boots and they used to tie them on tight. +String soles? +String soles. +Wh wh +Well they used to be like er, used t as you used to braid your hair, they'd braid a bit o rope and they'd, they'd make a sole out of that. +Why, why did they make soles of it? +Well the they'd, then they'd sew it on to the calico or the firm would do it for 'em. +Well why did they do it? +Well they were a lot easier, pliable. +That's what they used to have f for, for grain. +for walking in the grain? +Walking in the grain, yes. +I mean once you get er in the, say you get on in grain and you got leather shoes on, well you'd roll but th when you got, when you got rope, these rope soles, cos they used to grip on the grain, they wouldn't slip about. +And they made them themselves? +And well they, some of them made them themselves, some of them, they were supplied by the merchant. +Mm +Lot o think a lot of them were made, supplied by the merchant and they were made properly by the erm, you can say sh you can say er er any shoemaker perhaps or they'd be a factory what made so many pairs like. +When they, when they stopped using them do you think anybody kept them as +Oh goodness I don't think, I think they stopped using them during the war and I cr see that used to be like the gasworks, the gasworks you always used to have clogs, they used to have wooden soles, did the gasworks and then they used to have erm like a steel bar underneath or round the sole +Why was that? +and that, well th well that was cos there used to be all hot cinders you know like coke, red hot coke and they always had clogs then with leather tops. +To protect the feet? +Yes an I mean and I mean in winter time a wooden sole and a clog they wer they were nice and warm cos I mean you only used to polish 'em you used to put oil on them. +Did you? +I mean I bought one or two pair of clogs when I was on the dredger and we'd take the iro iron piece off underneath, that's just like a, a shoe what a horse have, like go round the +Oh yeah. +They use t they used to put th the band round the bottom of the wooden shoe +What on the front or the back ? +No unde right under on the sole. +On the sole? +Yeah, right on the sole and cos we used to take them off the iron and put a bit of leather on and grease the uppers with neat's-foot oil and they were really lovely and warm in the winter. +Did many people wear clogs? +Oh yeah a lot of people, lot of people wore clogs then. +Working on the dock? +Working on the dock yeah. +I mean the they're a lot better than other shoes. +What sort of people wore them? +Anybody, anybody pair of clogs from the gasworks. +Mm. +Cos they use t they used to supply them. +They supplied them? +They supplied them t to their employees cos if they got an old pair they want to wear, they'd flog another one for about five bob. +Oh I see they'd put in for a new pair and sell the old pair? +They would, yes. +That's what used to happen. +But where did the gasworks get them from, do you know? +No I don't know, they were made by some factory. +They weren't made locally? +Oh I sh I suppose they might have been but where they were made I, cos I mean you get like they used to b they used to deal in all shoes, no doubt they got them from them. +I believe they still do trade don't they? +I mean yeah somebody just retired, cos is down on the now, that's where is. +Were they trading round the dock area? +No I don't know, no co cos they ha they had a shop in I mean that's not far from the docks. +Did the did the port supply you with any protective clothing at all? +The port they didn't supply you with anything, my father was captain of the dredger Dredging Plant and they didn't even supply him with a hat. +Now they get everything . +That's the truth that is. +So you had to buy your own stuff then? +You had to buy your own stuff, I bought a pair of thigh boots and they were all made with leather and he and I used to put neat's-foot oil on them and I could roll them down just like a b just like a boot. +they were so s the leather was so soft and they didn't put nails in the soles, they put wooden pegs. +To hold the soles on? +Wooden pegs in your sole, they used to drill 'em and they used to put wooden, and them wooden pegs would n they'd never come out, cos if you put nails in, the nails would rust. +What was this because you were standing in water a lot? +That's right yes and th the Corporation had to sewage out four ways to s supply 'em. +I think that's where they got the idea and they used to be all leather, thigh boots. +Was that the salt water +Salt water +rust them? +and was taken out o the they don't do, they don't do the work now they used to do and years gone by. +I mean I've seen men work underneath the sewage and now of course that's all manica mechanical. +Where was the sewer outfall? +Sewer outfall was down at erm Earth Point near the Power Station is now and th and the +Yeah and the sewage is still down there. +And that still comes out the same place? +That's, that's still down there just so that was all mech mechanical me +further down the river then? +No sewage outfall is just the other side of the Power Station, that's where it is. +In the olden days, what did they used to have to do down there? +there, I mean in the older days they used to have a li little railway and they used t used more or less take all the sewage on to his land and there used to be couple little trucks where you tip over and they'd be one down and one up, on and he, old he used to, used to be his, put on his land. +What fertiliser? +Fertiliser. +They weren't such thing as, as er fertilizer what there is today, liquid fertiliser none like that there was all human fertiliser. +He used to u used to use tons and tons of that at the sewer outfall. +was on the foreshore. +Was it? +No is near the where the is now. +Mm +Where the is that's where used to be. +What they had a railway run down from there? +And they used t they used to have a little, they used to have a railway from the sewer outfall, a little one, narrow one, there used to be, as I say used to have a machine up the top of the hill and they used to pull one down and one up. +To the farm? +Farm yes, that's how they used to do it. +Were they the only people that used to use it like that? +That's about the only people that I know of and then, cos later years I would say that they used to cart so much into the erm, into the other farms round here. +I mean I've known lorries to go down and get out the human manure +Did they? +from there and now course they got shipped out and then they used to be a ship as well, used to take it to sea called the +Did they? +Go from Ipswich? +Used to go from Ipswich, they used to be the number one and they had the number two and the number two, she got blown up in Harwich Harbour. +What during the war? +During the War, Second World War number two. +Was she carrying anything at the time? +Yeah she was. +Yeah I know, I don't know whether she was going out or coming in but they got one there now and I think they th the one they got there now I don't know whether the Corporation, that's theirs or whether that's put out to contract and I think that's put out to contract now. +What th they still take it do they? +Oh yes, they, oh yes, yeah it's all pumped in and pumped out now. +Mm. +How was it put in in the olden days? +Well that was p that's was through the tube I suppose. +I know what when we were dredging down there, we used to have er what we call our safe chains and when we were first dredging down there you'd put your chain in, hands were all purple. +Purple? +All purple. +Why? +That was the mud, cos they used to put so much sewage into the river +W why did it make it purple? +And course that used t that used to go down on the bed and when you pulled that be there so many years, your hands all went purple and that'd be days before that went off. +Days +Did you eat your sandwiches? +Yeah, true, yeah +Yes yo your hands used to be purple an and the brass work on the dredger cos we had, we had a little bit of brass work they all used to turn green and to clean it, used to turn green. +They used to say the brass is on the other side of the river used t +Well yeah th well that used to turn green, tell you that now. +And it was all to do with the sewage? +All to do with the s I mean th the Dock Commission they claimed a lot of money off the Corporation I think over that cos they +Did they? +they came down with a lot o little bottles and they filled all them bottles up with the mud and they took 'em away and anal analyzed 'em and proved that it was erm human manure you see. +Contaminated? +Sewage. +Wasn't that how ? +Well I suppose it was then but course at that time of day well what we used to suffer with, you suffer with diphtheria and scarlet fever and yo you don't hear that today do you? +No that's all gone now. +You don't hear scarlet fever, diphtheria like that. +That's all gone, done away with. +I suppose in that way it's an improvement isn't it? +Oh it is an improvement, oh yes. +Definite, I mean there's not the sewage go in the river now, I don't think anyway. +Cos that was about, that must have been about erm er I'd say time about, yes I should say about nineteen, nineteen thirty four and they built a pipeline out from the sewer outfall and they put two dolphins out there, and they reckon that the water, when it's purified just to go into the river was really clean water. +When you say dolphins, what do you mean by that? +Well they like little, they were like little concrete stages, they was two and the they were in the river off, off this side, they were this side of the Hall Bridge. +And what did they do? +But they, they wanted to protect this here erm, the pipeline what went into the channel. +Oh to stop the ships from +That's right yes. +going over to it, I see. +When you were talking about your dredging earlier on, you used to take th the soil that you dredged up in the mud, in your dredger out t employ the hoppers out to sea. +How did you dispose of it +Well the point was you see, we had a dumb hopper, the dumb hopper was towed by an old tug, they had to tow that dumb hopper to sea, what was called dumb cos they ain't got no engines and so that was towed to sea and then course the er the dumb hopper ha had four winches, hand winches and then they, cos they had the chains on the but the steam hopper +What are the ? +The are on the side of the hold. +Now the sides of the hold and the, the chains used go down, they didn't have wires they had chains go down and with a big ring on the top and then when you'd the door out, knock the pin out and the door would drop down the mud and cos the ship would come up because she got two side tanks on er a tank each side to bring the ship out of the water. +Now +What with water from the tank? +just air, air was in the tanks the hot water in sea weren't it? +Mm true. +So if y if you if you er what did happen. +I mean if you fill a, fill a tank with water that's gonna sink and now the steam hopper had a strong back on +A strong back? +a, a, a strong back which was er er say a, a what we call a back in the centre of the ship and course the d n th the steam hopper could heave their own doors up by the steam winch. +They could put the hook in there and they could lower doors away so there's no need for the, cos many a time in the dumb hopper when you knock that pin out, they go down with the force and it'd break and it'd break the er the chain, the chain link. +Then we had to then fiddle about and get the chain up with a big pole and heave that up and we always knew that if a dumb hopper come back and they'd what we used to call they'd lost a door, one of the doors used to break, used to be about I would say erm eight doors in the hold, separate doors and if one of them broke they'd fiddle about with a big, what we would call a pole with a hook on trying to get hold of the chain and we'd see that there pole sticking up out of the hold, we knew they lost a door so what they used to do they used to leave with the dredger and we'd finish that off before we load it, had to. +What you had to fix the door? +We had to fix the door then then of course the with the big tow on the other dumb hopper to sea. +Crikey! +Could you fix the door from inside or fr or did you have to do it from outside? +No you have to, you'd, you'd, you'd do it in the middle in the hold, not in the middle of the hold on the side of the hold, where your, where your air tank was. +Once you've got that you could fiddle around with that and we used to lower a station down, tie the end, we'd do the best we could to do it. +We'd always get one, we never lost one yet. +And course they were on hinges, the doors, on er the hinges on in the centre hole under the water and course you always knew where then to, where to fit what we used to call fish for th fish for the chain. +So with the pole? +With the pole and a big hook on. +And how did +And when we got and once we got that then +I don't know +we'd, we'd tie, we'd tie a wire round the pole and heave that up you see so far but you couldn't pull the chain up. +So you, you heaved it up by winch? +We heaved it up on hand winch, yes. +That's how the work used to be. +Cos we used to swear like hell if they'd lost a door +Made a lot of work for you. +That made work for us. +And you say these doors were in the water? +The, the d doors were in the water right low, they were, they were low say you wouldn't have had say about three foot of water in the hold. +Because once the ship come up that's still a certain amount of water in the hold which that must be, cos then once you heave your door up then of course you load your ship again and then cos your ship was going down the more mud you put in, course mud is heavier than water +Yes +that's why I reckon we, we got a river bed because erm they say mud is heavier than water. +Mm. +Was there a lot of mud on the river bed? +Pardon? +Was there a lot of mud on the river bed? +Oh goodness yes there's mud, there was like Cliff Quay you had, you had your mud and when you come to chalk and further down the river you come to ballast near, near Al near the Albridge and further down you come to peat, then you come to green clay, then you come to Cattoes you c you start to dredge ballast again, Pinn Mill you'd dredge ballast and then right away down to the sea you'd dredge ballast. +Where was the peat? +Peat was Al Alfreston +Did they use it for anything? +and when we and when we were dredging that up, that used to be all like er er trunks of trees and you could, I mean you could see it when they come up it was very light. +I mean you could never load er, you could never load a hopper down to its plimsoll mark with peat, that was so light and cos you couldn't put any more in so you used to have to take it to sea perhaps we we well you would call it half loaded. +Yeah. +Bu but your hopper was full. +But with only half the weight on there? +And only half the weight. +So when you had peat on, were your doors in the water then? +Oh yes +The hopper door? +Yes they were in the water. +Cos they we yeah +They were right on the bottom of the boat +They were on the bottom of the boat, you see. +We when you say on the bottom, sort of was the bottom put on the side slightly? +No no, cos e on the bottom of the ship used to have your, a, your keel of your boat so that is in the centre of the ship +Yes. +so therefore then your doors were connected by hinges to the keel and from the keel to the cones, that's where your door was, so that'd swing on the keel and then your chains were fixed to the other end of the door and you hauled that up on your cones. +Mm +Then put the pin in, then you could load your hopper. +Yes. +wonder who designed it? +Pardon? +I wonder who designed it? +Well I don't know that must have been some clever fella to do it didn't he? +Like there is today, I mean things are altered when you get a ship now, when you get the dredger what was in the East Anglia Daily Times er yesterday, where a ship open in half, so th they load it with a grab and that go to sea and ship open in half, drop it down so there's no doors. +There again you see they can still muster out the air tanks, keep it afloat. +To keep it clear of the water when they empty it now? +Yeah. +Yes +Moving on from the, the dredger back to when you were a stevedore you used to sort out the different work for the, for the men, where did you used to congregate first thing in the morning? +Well I used to have me own office down at Cliff Quay. +Whereabouts was that? +That was at er was near factory. +And would all the men come to your office? +No they'd go to the Pool Manager. +And where was the ? +The Pool Manager what lo he at the finish, where he is now, he's at the lock gates. +Do they still meet there today? +And they still meet there today and they get er +Is it a covered building or do they just meet outside? +Er no there's a covered building and he reallocate the men right away, quarter past seven in the morning. +In your days did they have the building then? +Oh yes they, that was further in t that was further in the dock +Whereabouts was that? +and that, that Pool Manager wasn't employed, there's a Pool Manager now but he only give the information to the National Dock Labour Board. +Mm. +But the man what was Pool Manager is employed by the I P A now. +Mm. +Whe where did, in your day where was the, the pool? +The pool was just bel just beside the harbourmaster's office just a little further where it is now, cos what we had, what we call the yard, that's where the engineers' workshops was, the carpenters' shop, which is still there and then little further up th up the Newcut East there was the pool place for the National Dock Labour Board. +Oh The National Dock Labour Board is still there isn't it? +That's still there, yes +Oh I know where you mean, +That he'd do that in the morning as a little part time job for 'em, and all he'd do is erm, the Pool Manager, which is at Lock Gates, he know what ships come in the day before and he really know the man and then in the morning they'd say well so and so ship has arrived but perhaps he might know it, then he'd send, he'd know what men to send and this, cos I, I used to get the latest information, they didn't worry him, they worried me about lates latest information and of course we knew what ships was due for the next day so we knew what allocation we wanted. +Did you ever have not enough work for the number of men you had? +Oh goodness yes, they have today. +Today I mean they, I mean when you take, years and years ago when there used to be man handling everything same as timber, I mean we had about three hundred dockers then. +Good many then? +Yeah, three hundred, now today you only got hundred and thirty because they the manual work. +That's all mechanical you see. +When you had too many men for the jobs that needed doing, did the men get paid? +They get paid through the National Dock Labour Board. +What they call stand-by money. +Stand-by? +What they call stand-by mo they do today, they still guarantee a day's, it ain't much mind you but they still get guaranteed so much a day. +On flat rate? +Flat rate. +And then they got more if they worked +If they, they got they got piecework or they got th th the, they get either piecework or they get so much for the job so much, an hourly rate for the job. +Was there a time when they didn't get paid if there was no work? +Well, before the National Dock Labour Board. +Mm mm. +See he was the man what brought in decasualization during the war. +Mm. +That's when you had a coalition government and erm then course he, they denationalized the docks then and course now ther one or two docks the they're putting 'em, making 'em redundant because I said there's not the manual work today, that's like London, Liverpool. +See dockers are only protected, when they say they go on strike, they're only protecting their own jobs in my opinion. +They're protecting their own jobs. +Why should we have bloody machines doing work when human beings should be doing it? +I mean a machine,d well they do, they do carry timber but you gotta have the men there haven't you? +That's true, yes. +I mean y when th I mean a gang on a timber boat, they'd be ten men and one hatch man and that's eleven men. +Hatch man. +Ha er a man on the hatch,t to tell the crane driver what to do or where to go, well you w you would have four men in the hold making up slings of timber. +Then you would have six men ashore that carry it away and stack it but course now today they don't do that. +That's come already in lengths, already slung so all the dock you got, you ain't got so many dockers there. +So you just need your crane driver really to un to unload the ? +That's all you want the crane driver and about three or four dockers, that's what you want, instead of eleven dockers. +When you said they used to carry it away, to stack it, on dock. +They used to stack it on the quay. +On the quay? +Yeah. +And then course that used to be different, er used to be different size timber two by sixes, four by twos, inch by one, er inch by ou I mean inch +inch by two and you had to tell these dockers what size it was and they'd take it out of that particular stack. +Mm and then what happened +And then after that when the ship was finished, then they used to sort that all out, the timber, different sizes, then y and then or were there, their own people to stack the timber and when they stacked it, they stacked it and they used to put splines between each layer of timber and that was to season the timber. +Oh what to let the air through? +Let the air through. +Mm. +But now they don't even do that. +What happens to it now? +That's all bundled up and that's why half the bloody stuff is rotten +before you get it. +Didn't last very long. +Well tha that is so today. +Was everything that was unloaded off the boats stacked on the quay? +Not everything. +I mean we import but we imported once erm, like lemon peel and orange peel +What is that? +in, in barrels. +Now that was er, it was er or they were oranges what had been cut in half and they had the centre taken out so it was just the orange peel and that was pressed into these barrels, filled with water and that was then brought up on to the quay, left on the quay and that used to go to . +Every so often they'd come down and they'd take the bung out and put more water in. +Why did they do that? +That was your candy peel. +Candy peel? +Candy peel what you eat. +Cakes, you we that's lemon peel and that's how all these oranges were cut in halves, scooped out the orange and then all put in, one bit in the other. +Why did they keep adding water? +Well to keep, keep it all, keep this candy peel moist, well keep the peel moist. +I mean once or twice when we unload it the beer barrel break and when they, be surprised you'd never get it back together again. +Never. +Cos they s cos that's compressed in, these barrels, and that was all done abroad and once these barrels broke, well you couldn't do nothing about it but we never, they never, there was none of that wasted, never. +They always used to cart it away I suppose to wash it and use it. +Did they? +That was candy peel. +We had, I think we had about two ships of that, that's all. +Yeah. +Did you ever get any cargoes that split or broken? +Oh goodness yes. +Yeah, I mean they, even wool, we had begin th f beginning the war. +Wool? +Wool we had big bales of wool come in and once wool was packed together and banded, that was heavy. +Did it ever break open? +some of it did, yes. +The bands'd break, cos they never used to worry about it. +What happened to it then? +I don't know they used to cart it away. +I mean er down the dock now they got a, one big warehouse there now. +In my time they erm, the sugar beet, sugar beet pulp. +We exported that, now you don't see so much sugar beet pulp now. +I think that's animal feed. +Yes it is. +Sugar beet pulp. +Well y it always used to be stowed down at, come from er Sprawton and stowed on the dock, +From the sugar beet factory? +From the sugar beet factory. +Cos I mean sugar beet pulp was very light +Mm it was dried wasn't it? +Yeah dried, that's just like little pallets. +Yeah. +That's what it used to be. +And who did they used to export that for? +Well we loaded one ship for America and we put so much in +But when stuff came down the dock to people off, on to a boat, would that be stored in a warehouse first and then go on to the boat or would it be +No they come with the lorries and we'd load it direct. +Direct? +Direct, the same as erm fertiliser coming in, a lot of lorries would come down there and get the fertiliser, different say merchants, different farmers, they used to go through the agent and they'd buy so much off the agent, this different fertiliser if couldn't supply it, what they wanted. +So the men had to be there at the right time you had t ? +Oh well, you you'd be waiting. +So it all had to be organized really didn't it? +Oh it did, yes. +To make it work. +Yes. +You had different, different companies do the, do the job so you used to get say I mean th you get a receiver for that cargo, well it, perhaps he got so much for receiving that cargo, then that was his job then to allocate it to different people but he, cos that was another job for him which you don't do now. +There ain't receivers now. +How do they work it now? +How they work I don't know. +How they work it now. +I don't know. +Things have altered so much now. +So i years ago then there was a lot of smaller jobs for a lot more people really? +Oh yes. +See I me so many agents, you got a lot of agents today now so + +How did you get on last week? +Er we won two games and lost the other two. +Smashing. +Right. +Well, well not smashing that you lost two, right. +Can we just get the prayer out and start by saying the prayer together please. +You haven't got it . +Use use . +Right okay. +Pour out your spirit upon your people and grant us a new vision of your glory, a new experience of your power, a new faithfulness to your word, a new consecration to your service, that your love may grow among us and your kingdom come. +Through Christ, Our Lord. +Amen. +Right. +Now last week and on Sunday we talked about again about the seven gifts of the Holy Spirit. +Can you remember any of them? +Did you do the work on Saint Stephen by the way? +Er +The first martyr? +No I don't think s no. +Have you got it from last wee the week before? +Yeah, I think so. +You were supposed to read through it and have a look. +If you want to It's at the very back, I can see it . +Oh no. +No I haven't done that. +Right. +Well i that was to sort of try and make you focus on the gifts of the Holy Spirit that we're going to receive, that we receive through or that you have strengthened through Confirmation, rather than receiving because they're already there. +They have to be already there or it doesn't er really work. +Right erm Can you think can you remember any of the gifts that we talked about? +Er +I know it's a week and a half ago but . +See what you can try. +Is it like an anoint an erm anointing ? +No the gifts that you receive or +Erm No. +Do you want to get out the sheet then with the gifts on that we lo you looked at. +I keep saying we looked at cos I looked at it on Sunday and +This one? +Yes, that's +Yeah. +right. +Right they're the sort of they're the go they're good titles. +Wisdom, understanding, right judgement, courage, knowledge, awe and wonder and reverence. +They're sort of things to focus on points of focus within when you're receiving Confirmation of the ways in which through Confirmation you can enhance the gifts which you already have and focus in on the power of the Holy Spirit through those gifts. +Right. +Erm if you have a look at the the Stephen, we'll go over I think the Stephen first martyr because without that really I think that'd be quite a good focus of of er for the talking about the gifts. +Right. +Have you read the story? +Do you know the story of Stephen? +Erm I'm not sure. +Mm. +Do you want to just quickly read it through? +There's no point in me reading it out is there? +Just want to read it Don't bother writing it, we'll just read +Mm. +it and talk about it and you can write it in some other time. +Mm. +Read it? +Yeah. +Read it? +Right. +Now that says Stephen was a man filled with the Holy Spirit. +His death an life and death showed the power of the Holy Spirit working in him. +He showed the gifts of the Holy Spirit. +He sto showed the gift of what when he spoke out fearlessly? +Erm +What would you say? +Look at the +Courage. +That's right. +Or that's a good. +The Stephen They're not all I mean I'm saying that's right but that some of them there are more than one answer to. +But erm sometimes That that was pretty obv that's an obvious one I should say. +She Stephen showed the gift of something when he preached the truth about God and the message of Jesus. +What would you say? +Right judgement. +Right judgement? +Yeah. +Right and the next one then. +Stephen, faced the difficult choice between life and the love of God, showed the gift of +Reverence. +Mm. +Yeah it is reverent, to be reverence, yes. +Power to love God and each other as we should. +Yeah. +But +Right. +It it's a difficult choice between life and love of God. +Had to choose. +What would you do if you're choosing? +Don't you think that's more right judgement? +Yeah. +Because that's you know he's he's making the right choice making the right judgemen judgement. +Yeah. +Right. +Stephen showed the gift of what when he forgave his executioners? +Even then he still loved them. +It might not be there, there are other ones. +They're just useful headings, but if you can think of something else What would you say? +Con you think of anything else? +Understanding. +Understanding yeah. +Mercy really isn't it? +He showed mercy I mean he +Yeah. +showed mercy on them even though they did not show mercy on him. +Right the rest of them I don't really want to go through it too much because that's that was just to show you an example. +Can you think of any more modern day people that you think could inspire you and can show the gifts of the Holy Spirit in their lives? +I mean Stephen is a heck of a long time ago, he's the very first martyr, and we although we celebrate his feast day still on December the twenty sixth because he is the first martyr, he's quite a long way away. +Although a lot of his story is still relevant to us cos you can see it in today's life when people stand up for themselves or stand up for their faith or what they believe in and you look around you, you can see violence and being done to them. +But can you think of anybody for yourself who you could think of who over the recently or over the in the past few centuries or closer to home have shown the gifts of the Holy Spirit in their lives? +Well the Prime Minister right right judgement and wisdom . +Most of the time. +. +No I mean er yeah okay, fair enough. +But can you think of anyone who stands out as being somebody who really does their bit and yet does it possibly with humility or erm I'm thinking of rather than saying sort of a general terminology of sort of Prime Ministers or what have you, erm I'm thinking if you can think of a a particular person? +Father Chris. +Oh I'm sure +he'd be very pleased to hear that. +Yeah. +Smashing. +Anybody a bit more famous? +I'm sure Father Chris would be pleased to hear that and would be very flattered to hear that as well but erm he's erm I'm sure he does try to live by those rules because er obviously that's one of the bases of his life but erm I was thinking more in terms of somebody who stood up for themse stood up for what they believe in in a situation where it was difficult. +Cos with the best will in the world Father Chris really doesn't face an awful lot of opposition does he? +Yeah. +You know where he lives in England we're very quite a generally quite a tolerant or comparatively quite a tolerant society. +Or somebody has stood up and done their best for their particular community or somebody's stood up and done their best to Or has moved to somewhere. +Any ideas? +Any suggestions? +No? +Mother Theresa? +Yeah. +Mm. +Yeah? +Yeah. +You know about Mother Theresa do you? +Yeah. +Right. +Her whole point in life is that people criticize her because she does erm she can only actually look after a very small percentage of the people in Calcutta who need help and they all sort of say, Well she does that bit but what about the rest of them? +And she says that she does what she can in her own way, she tries her best to do what she can to help. +Right. +Erm obviously it's not just those who are famous who show the power of the Spirit in their lives, you know everybody does. +There are different ways of doing it with different people erm who do share it. +There's a few examples here, Mother Theresa was one that sprung sprang to my mind when I was thinking it through. +Erm Can you show can you tell me any ways in which you I presume you know about Mother Theresa you know quite a bit about her life do you? +I just like know she helps people in Calcutta and helps the poor in +Yeah. +She does she goes out and she also goes round and she fund raises for her own for her own er work as well. +Not so much now because of ill health but she used to. +She speaks out, she lets people know what's happening. +So can you tell me looking at those seven could you tell me which you would say immediately comes to mind with Mother Theresa? +Understanding. +Yeah. +Mm. +Definitely why? +How? +Cos she understands that she's got to help God I mean people around her that are suffering. +Yeah. +Any others? +Courage to stand up for er erm what she believes in. +Yeah. +Any others? +Right judgement. +How? +Well she's erm j erm She's made a right judgement about erm to help people and not just to sit there watching telly or something. +Yeah. +So she's doing something Er it is in a difficult situation and she knows what to do. +Yeah. +Any others any other gifts that you think she's shown that aren't on there? +Love for the people around her. +That's right. +And through her love also she shows great respect because the people that she's dealing with are considered in Indian society to be the dregs of humanity. +Indian er in India still has a very class-ridden society and er you know from the the top caste do not even associate with the lower castes and there is a terrific there's still a terrific sense of that. +I was talking to a friend of mine actually on Monday who is erm parti partially Indian and come from India and from Calcutta and she is high caste but she's a Catholic as well so she's her attitude's different she's lived in England most of her life but she can't get over the attitude of some of her relatives in India to the poor because they're lower caste. +It's still there. +Right. +I want to just have a look at this. +It's a two-part thing. +Erm it's erm this is people or stories but a based again I'm sure when y as you read through you'll probably find quite a lot of the erm little things that they're giving you here you could relate to in your own life, either for yourself or for other people that you know. +Erm if you have a look through them and then have a quick write down of what gifts you think the different ones that are mentioned in this are using. +Okay?. +Should I write down ? +Yeah, write on it and see what you think . +Mm. +Sorry you can't work in pairs which is what they did on Sunday . +I suppose you could you could work with me but er I don't think that's quite the idea. +Unless you want to just discuss it and mark it down as we're going through. +Try to think not just of those, although they can u you can use those as guidelines. +Try and think of any others that er +re be respect? +Cos er +Yes. +That's a good one. +Anything else? +Understanding cos +Mm. +she understands +Any others? +Not on there really. +Friendship. +Yeah. +Courage to like +Mm. +Yeah I agree with you because it is sometimes quite difficult for somebody who's handicapped to find the courage to go out. +Mm. +If they go into town together, yeah. +That's a good one. +Actually I don't think that one cropped up last week on Sunday. +I don't think anybody said courage for her. +I think they said friendship and respect and understanding but I don't think anybody said courage. +What else is Kirsty using there? +Friendship +Friendship yeah obviously yeah. +It's a shame actually they don't say how with cerebral palsy it can be a mild handicap or a major handicap. +I mean it can be aware you can be aware of somebody with cerebral palsy having cerebral palsy and you can also be totally unaware that they have it. +Yeah I agree with you. +Right the second one, do you want to have a look at the second one? +Right judgement +Yeah I would s I would guess so or I would think so as well. +I'm not really doing that right because I mean I shouldn't agree I What you say is right whether I agree with it or not . +I said, Oh yes that's right yeah, but it's not right . +. +It is right but it's not that's not the whole point of this exercise. +The point is for you to think decide what you think . +Right. +Did their form teacher use any gifts? +How could the form teacher have approached this? +could have said No it'll cost a lot of money or something. +Yeah. +What did he actually do? +Did she did did something about it and +So what did the form teacher do? +They came up with the idea, what did the form teacher do? +Put it into action. +I don't think he actually d or she whichever it is the form teacher actually did that did they? +It was the two boys who s who set up put it into action. +So what did the form teacher actually do? +Gave them permission to erm +So Yeah? +I mean he didn't really give He was only you know just like erm just used his authority just to say Yeah . +So what's Yeah but he could have turned round and said No, so what's he actually done? +Understand =standing +Understanding and? +Erm +Encouragement isn't it. +I mean he's actually encouraged them, he's said, Yes okay fine, go ahead, let's sort it out, let's do something about it. +Joined possibly joined in with them although it doesn't actually say. +Mm. +It says They talked to their form teacher about this and have formed a tree planting group in school . +I presume it means John and Andy have formed a tree planting group in school not the teacher. +But he did use the gift of encouragement didn't he? +Yeah. +And knowl er what did you say? +Er +one you said? +Understanding, mm. +Understanding, yeah. +What about the rest of the class? +Did they did they join the tree +Well presumably if they started a tr a group haven't they . +So what were they doing? +Erm helping. +That's right. +Helping. +They were encouraging again, +Mm. +weren't they, and erm supporting helping them and supporting them weren't they? +Because they could have turned round Er they wouldn't have got as much done if there'd just been the two boys together. +Yeah? +Mm. +Any others? +Right okay. +read it through. +What would you say what gifts is Mr Richardson Richards using +Courage to +Courage yeah +to +Yeah yeah that's a good one that I don't think that one came up either last time. +That's really good so courage yeah what else? +He's telling stories probably about the past what is he showing? +And what will she be should we be ready to see in older people? +What about wisdom? +What do you think? +That's one that struck me. +Yeah. +Yeah do you agree with me or not. +If you don't agree with me please say I won't be offended at all if you disagree. +Because often I mean wisdom to help us to judge no not really judging is he? +He is using wisdom and er his wisdom of life or knowledge of like perhaps rather than wisdom. +I meant wisdom in the other meaning. +Knowledge of life cos he's talking to his grandson. +Telling stories. +Erm +Right if you don't agree don't er do say please do say because if you don't agree I'd rather hear your views +Yeah? +Okay. +Right what gifts is Mike using? +Love +Yeah. +because so he can just like pop in every day +Mm. +. +Good. +Anything else? +Understanding. +Yeah I think that's very important that one because he understands he sees the loneliness that his grandfather's feeling. +He's sufficiently aware to know that er he can't get out much, he's on his own, he's lonely especially if he's not in very good health. +So he can't do ou he can't go out and about. +anything else? +Right judgement cos +Mm. +What else they usually have a good laugh. +Friendship. +Mm yeah. +They're friends aren't they. +Mm. +They usually have a good laugh sense of humour any of those. +Right don't need to write all those down let's have a look at the next one then. +Right gifts is using? +Understanding she understands . +What else do she do? +How would you feel about standing up in front of a group of people and telling them something about I mean in her situation telling her class or even the whole what you were doing. +I think scared. +So what's she showing there if she's +Courage. +Yeah I think so. +And +Some people some people it wouldn't bother but erm as she's not trained to be a speaker, she's a voluntary worker. +I mean we don't whether she sort of it doesn't say whether she volunteered to go and talk to the people in the school, but even so it's quite it takes quite a lot of doing to stand up in front of a group of people you don't know and talk about the work. +What gifts is the young man using?. +Determination to do erm +Good yeah +that's a smashing one that didn't come up on Sunday either determination yeah. +What else? +Anything else? +What about hope? +Mm. +Yeah? +Yeah. +There's one thing that struck me right. +What gifts are Maria and Peter doing ? +Mummy +Using? +No, go away, I'm teaching, go away. +? +No. +Go on then yes, be back for seven o'clock. +What gifts are Maria and Peter using? +Helping +Helping yeah, great, helping others. +And supporting. +Supporting him yeah, great. +What gifts are their friends using? +Helping again. +Yeah. +Understanding and +Yeah. +they understand that erm he needs somebody to +Yeah, yeah. +And they see the purpose for what Maria and Peter's doing aren't they and they're +Mm. +helping. +Yeah. +Smashing. +Right and we'll leave the other sheet for now so's you can have a look at that yourself if you would at some stage and just erm go through it. +And at this poi point on Sunday we did a break and refreshment but you can forget about that cos I'm gonna carry straight on . +Okay, is that alright? +Yeah. +Right okay. +Now erm all the gifts that you give at Confirmation the whole idea of Confirmation in well one of the main ideas of Confirmation is taking on board for yourself what your parents promised for you in baptism. +Yeah? +And erm the we are given or they h one of the reasons or the purposes behind Confirmation is to give us the strength to use the gifts which God's al has already given us. +And it's like the story of the erm I think it was the servant parable of the servant with the talents. +Do you know the story I mean the parable I mean? +No. +Well the servants three servants are given one talent and their master tells them to erm do with it what they could in a certain space of time and he would reward them. +And one of the servants takes his one talent and he uses it and he works very hard with it and he buys erm raw goods and he makes things and he he a makes his one talent up into ten. +And the second servant doesn't do quite as well,he erm but he manages to make five talents out of his one talent. +And the third servant says Well no if I if I go out and buy something something might go wrong and I'll lose the talent, and so he hides it away in the drawer. +So when the master comes back and says to then What have you done with your talents? one the first servant shouts, Here, here are ten for your one, Here are five for your one, and he's very cross with the third servant because he said, What's the purpose of giving me giving you this money if all you're going to do is hide it in the drawer? +And it's the same idea in Confirmation that the gifts which you are given are not given just for yourself, they're given to be used, and there's no point in keeping them to yourself, you know. +They are to be used and shared with other people, and that's how one of the ways in which we live a Christian life. +We might do it amongst our family, we can do it er by you know helping within the family, you can do it by helping in the community, all sorts of different ways. +You might be called to do it some other way as you get older. +That's up to depends on what happens really. +Right Confirmation is a call from God. +Right? +You understand that idea. +We call that a vocation. +That word is called a vocation. +I'm sure you've heard or have you heard about priests when say a priest has a vocation, a call from God? +When they renew their erm mm. +Erm no. +Er what what's it what's it called when they renew their erm their promise to God being a priest? +Well that's just no that's I think that's just a renewal of vows. +Mm. +But a vocation is a call from God. +Erm that's what the word means the word means a call from God. +And erm the work that you're asked to do the prop the word for it I mean we use wh wh really what I'm t teaching you now is the vocabulary that is used and which will actually be used during the service. +The call from God is a vocation and the the work that you're asked to do is your mission. +Erm in actual fact I don't w I work in a non-catholic school. +And one of the things that erm they're talking about at the moment is making their mission statement. +And that's the equivalent of our R E syllabus in a catholic school . +But er it's a mission statement, it's the mission is the work that you're asked to do. +And there's a bit of fun for you. +So if we just go through these and then you can find them in the word search if you like. +A call from God is a? +Vocation. +Vocation. +God's call is a call to? +Mission, yeah. +mission? +mission . +It doesn't make sense that does it. +Yeah it's called to a miss er to mission. +That's the wor that's wor that's what the word is. +The work we're asked to do. +Right so the word is mission for there. +Right. +receive God's call Come on go through these first and then we'll do them af I'll let you do the word search. +We call it the sacrament +Bap +of Baptism. +Yeah. +Yeah. +? +Yeah. +And Holy and Spirit are two separate words in the word search. +. +How many? +Seven. +Right. +Only it's not written like that in there +Yeah. +it's written in You can do the word search Yeah I don't do you want to do the word search now? +No I'll do it +Okay right. +Fine. +Erm now Kay actually had a big er you know the stand she usually does +Mm. +and erm I meant to er well she said she'd bring it back to me and then I said Well no don't bother I'll sort something out myself and then I forgot all about it. +So what I'll I'll explain to you what was on there. +There were pictures of Bosnia, Ireland erm there was a picture of a little girl crying with er a friend stood next to her. +There was a picture of some people being crushed in a lorry in Bosnia. +And there was a picture who had fallen off one of the lorries in Bosnia erm one of the refugee lorries and was running along trying to catch up with her parents. +Erm there was a picture of a starving person in Ethiopia and on top of all those there were superimposed the opposite words love, joy, peace, forgiveness, happiness. +have a look at the prayer of Saint Francis now do you know the prayer of Saint Francis?pob probably do. +You might not think you do but you do. +Right. +Can you uh just read it through. +I'll read it aloud because it does make it I think it makes it stick in your mind more. +Lord make me an instrument of your peace. +Where there is hatred let me sow love. +Where there is injury let me sow pardon. +Where there is doubt let me sow faith. +Where there is despair let me give hope. +Where there is darkness let me give light and where there is sadness let me give joy. +And obviously each word there each negative word was counteracted by a positive the opposite right. +So can you choose one of those lines now, think about it for a minute and then have a look on at this. +Erm and see if you can actually fill in the the ideas which are on there. +Or the answer the questions which are on there . +Don't worry about it. +presentation yeah but we're not doing that. +Sorry I've your stopped your train of thought the haven't I. +Right. +Fair enough, right. +Which line did you look at? +Erm Where there's despair let me give hope . +Right and the negative word is? +Despair. +Yeah. +You couldn't think of anything ? +Fair enough. +That's nice actually. +I mean it is nice that you don't know anybody who you feel might be despairing. +Yeah? +Mm. +So you never felt I mean presumably you never felt that yourself and therefore and also perhaps if you've never come across Fair enough. +Right what about in our country? +The people sleeping rough in the streets. +Yeah. +Good one. +And in the world going abroad ? +Erm Ethiopia starving. +Yeah. +Right. +Positive word is? +Hope. +Yep. +And how can you bring this positive word into the examples you gave as answers to question three? +How could you bring hope in? +Hoping that they'll have a home . +Mm. +And giving aid to the people in Ethiopia. +Yeah. +True. +So how? +How would which one? +Both of them. +By helping . +How? +How can you actually how could you help people who are homeless, you? +could speak to them and say erm give them some encouragement to go and have a look and see if there's any hostels or something. +Mm. +Giving information, yeah, that's a good one. +I mean you yourself if you found out if you found some homeless people you could possibly find out where they could go. +Mm. +So +Erm I could erm ask the school to collect some money for them. +Mm. +That could be for both really +Yeah. +couldn't it going doing taking an active part in charity work within the school or within the community. +Yeah great that's smashing. +Right. +Now this last one here is called Living the Prayer and it's like the other quite a few of the others, erm but it's for you, it's not for not for us it's not to be shared. +But it is just to try and ask you to think ways in which you could help in this particular way in whichever way there is. +So Today I brought and there's an example here Today I brought joy where there was sadness by cheering up a friend who was fed up. +Very simple thing to do and something you possibly would do without even thinking about it. +And now we're asking you to focus in on ways in which you could live the prayer of Saint Francis. +Right? +For a week. +Now if y I mean if you do it you do it and that's it's up to you, but because nobody else will look at it. +But to be honest it is a good way of focusing in on what you what we've been talking about tonight and if you can I think it would be worthwhile doing as part of your preparation to help you to think. +Cos it i it shouldn't just be your preparation should not just be a one-off hour hour and a half what have you on the Sundays when you come along. +Because if you if you if that's all it is then you're just going through the motions, you're not actually going ahead and receiving the Sacrament of Confirmation. +I don't feel that it is with any of you. +But erm you know that's up to you er you're the only person who knows that. +Right, can we actually have a look now the last bit is sort of more the nitty gritty before we go on to this . +Next Sunday is the at the ten thirty mass is the Celebration of Election. +Right. +Between now and Sunday it's down to you to decide that you definitely want to go ahead and be confirmed. +At the Celebration of Enrolment you said Right yes, well I'm prepared to take part in the preparation programme. +Now this next Sunday you're preparing and saying Yes I definitely want to go ahead and be confirmed. +And it it should be your decision. +Erm I know it's easier said than done sometimes but er it has to be your decision because even if you went ahead and were confirmed, we were tal talking about the idea of sometimes parents bring pressure on them on you to go ahead and do it and be confirmed, erm when perhaps you're not don't feel ready for it and it takes a lot of courage to stand up and say No I'm not ready. +But if you feel ready, fine, if you don't feel ready, then even if you go ahead it won't be valid. +It won't be worth anything because it won't have meant anything to you. +Unless it means something to you it's not really much point. +Erm that's the negative side. +The positive side is obviously if you go ahead with the Celebration of Election, smashing. +What happens in the Celebration is of Election is that the erm it happens at the end of mass I think or round the end of mass. +I think it's after Communion. +The priest asks the catechists or one of the catechists to represent the four of us erm to decide whether we feel you're ready for Confirmation, which we all have no hesitation in saying yes to with all this particular group. +Erm then he asks the candidates er Do you sincerely want to receive the Sacrament of Confirmation? and you stand when he calls out your name, hell call out you names, yeah? +Kay did this bit on Sunday and I'm not too sure about it, yeah. +The catechist will read out in the same way as we did for the Celebration of Enrolment, erm whichever catechist is doing will say I present to you and call out a name, and you stand up in your seat with your parents. +Now are you are you erm on the altar on Sunday? +No I was going to stay down. +Right. +Well you just stand up in your row by your parents and you don't go don't come out onto the front or anything, just stand up when your name's called, and then he addresses you and says,Do you sincerely want to receive the Sacrament of Confirmation?and you say,I do. +Do you understand that through this sacrament God is calling you to become witnesses to Christ? +I do. +Difficult aren't they. +Do you want to follow Lord Jesus by living lives of loving service to God and to all God's people?and you say,I do. +And the he says,Let us bless the Lord. +and you answer,Thanks be to God. +Then he asks the community, because although they might not all have seemed to have been involved there's been a lot of people praying for you and +Mm. +you are part of the community. +And then he will address you again. +But knowing Father er Chris and then apart from the We everybody says the answers there it's all thanks be to God and amen amen amen amen, I think we're actually gonna have some copies, I don't know,ready for you. +So that's next Sunday. +Erm you've got your letter about the following Sunday didn't you ? +Yeah. +Right. +Any queries questions or what have you about that? +Erm do you kn how much erm contribut erm +Well that's up to you and your parents . +Mm mm. +That's really up to your parents. +Erm If it's if you want some kind of a guideline I think last year I can't remember but I think we I think last year we actually had to ask because the parish couldn't support it totally. +Erm this year the parish has said they'll pay for it and any contributions will be gratefully received and I think it was three pound last year. +But I can't remember. +Mm. +So that just gives you some idea and it's up to your parents if they want to. +But don't feel pressured to contribute you know cos it's something Right er don't think there's anything else. +You've got the letter, you've got all that. +Right so next Sunday is the ten thirty mass for everybody. +Yeah. +Okay? +Okay. +Right can we just we'll finish off with a prayer. +Do you want to say the prayer of Saint Francis? +Okay. +When we get round to it. +I'll tell you when. + +I want you to think about it during the in cos it does help if you think about this before . +So some time, you know, during the interval or at the end if you could er give them to Heather and then she'll hand them on to me afterwards. +Erm, the social, I've got tickets for the social. +So if you see erm +Right. +during the interval. +The dinner. +Er, if anybody hasn't booked would they please see Elaine either this week or next. +Erm I think that brings us to the end of the announcements. +Which brings us to tonight's big competition number two. +And I have pleasure in introducing our judge, Mark from Chelmsford. +Would you please welcome Mark . +Good evening. +I've been to your lovely new really smashing! +Really nice. +Erm you know, I mean er all the other places are alright, but this is er I don't know +the only one I know of that's with +Well +with a carpet on the floor. +Can, can we have can we have some light on? +If someone could crawl under the +No th +Underneath. +fo underneath the you've gotta clo crawl underneath the cupboard. +Oh! +You found it. +Right. +Thank you. +Okay? +The . +Right. +This one +this one is called Ancient Greek. +Ancient Greek? +Ancient Greek. +Yeah, well there's no doubt about that is there? +Certainly er, the er in fact, some of them have got titles at the front so +Yeah. +you know. +Anyway, Ancient Greek. +It's a a sort of a a candid portrait I suppose. +And the reason I call it a candid portrait is because I don't think that the he may have seen somebody there with a camera, but he certainly wasn't posing for the camera. +He's appears to be erm not looking at the the cameraman, photographer. +So maybe he didn't know he was going to be photographed. +But certainly, his er location is correct for the costume. +He's got this er I guess he's could he be a priest? +I don't know, I'm not familiar with that. +But it looks as if he could be an Orthodox er Jewish Orthodox priest. +With the long beard and the sort of box hat. +Erm the, as I sa already said, the location is correct. +Got nice sort of archway here to give a sort of a bit of interest to the erm the bri the stonework behind him. +Erm doorway there, always a doorways always add interest to a picture. +Erm, they're sort of a little bit intriguing, you wonder what's going on there, what sort of place it is, and so on. +And there's nobody else in the picture so we're totally concentrating on him. +It does lack a little bit of sharpness this one. +Yes. +It's not quite as crisp as it ought to be. +It's er but the actual tones in it are, are ideal. +Beautiful! +Nothing wrong with that at all. +You've got er, all the tones it should have but, the overall crispness, sharpness I'm afraid, is lost. +But I'm not quite sure why. +It doesn't look like camera shake. +It just appears to be just a fraction out of focus maybe, I don't know. +Maybe er could be a camera shake . +I it,i it does lack that crispness we feel ought to have there. +Have marks out of ten so erm +I like the subject, and I like the composition and so on, but it just loses a bit because of the lack of sharpness so a five for that. +This +Steps. +Step. +Yeah, right. +Slowly got that. +Certainly a very simple picture and I believe often that simple pictures are successful pictures. +Erm not always, but I think a lot of pictures or photographs erm suffer because people have got too much in them. +You know, and, and I I prefer something to be kept as simple as possible and not to try and erm make it too busy. +Certainly, the quality of the printing in this one is excellent. +Lovely light on the the wall here. +The texture's right everywhere through that photograph, it's got nice texture. +Cos even in the the shadow area you see there's still nice textures shown on the fronts of the steps here and on this wall here which is in shadow, it's still got th the texture showing through. +And, the way those steps go round the corner, up behind the er erm the wall here, I think again, it has a sort of an intriguing effect, you wonder erm where they're leading to and so on. +And they're very steep steps. +I mean, er you know er, a little bit dodgy. +I would think som someone a little unsteady coming down those steps they could be a bit dodgy. +But, certainly, I like the shapes, I like the diamond shape of this wall here, the, and I like the tree at the back. +Yes, I, I like that one. +I think that's an an excellent simple study. +It's the sort of picture which people who are not interested in photography wouldn't even bother with, probably, but see what they're missing? +So they've done it, I think someone er who's walking along the road, see you standing there taking that picture and say, what on earth are they taking a picture of that for? +But I, you know, the end result erm is worth it. +Erm I've had a quick look through so I'm trying to remember er what we've got coming. +Mm. +I'm gonna give that one a ten cos I like it. +That was Elaine . +Skyscape, Loch Linnhe. +I like this one too. +I know erm it's got loads of punch. +It's got er, impact, it's, it appeared relatively small so you know,to erm it's a fact of life that small prints have a, a lot more to do to keep up with big ones, they have to more impact. +I mean, they can er be lost a bit if they're a bit small. +But, I, I'm not, you know, because thi but compared with the one that we've just looked at this is small, but it's still got plenty of impact. +Now,yo you can imagine what this would be like if it was twenty by sixteen. +Just a, to, just trying to illustrate the point that size does matter sometimes. +I like the erm lighting throughout this, although it's fairly dark there's nowhere excuse me, on the, on the land which is in bright light, although the sun is still fairly high, so it could be artificially dark, but, nevertheless, you can see detail everywhere. +On the water, the ripples on the water are throughout the picture and even on this sort of headland here, something like that, there's even some detail there. +So even though the whole thing is in fairly dark tones, there's still plenty of detail. +And lovely light on clouds and the water. +So, I'm gonna give that one an eight. +Eight? +Heather . +Next one is Fascination. +Fascination of watching somebody doing something which you're not familiar with. +Probably that's it. +Er, that's where the title comes in. +Now with people who are at work, who are erm, working with their hobby, or a job, it's always important that it's clear what's going on. +I've seen lots of pictures where people are obviously doing something that you just don't know what's going on and that, that is a pity because er er the idea of a photograph is to illustrate what's happening. +Now I think er it's clear what's going on here, there's er weaving going on, I'm not quite sure what the material is er but there's certainly a loom with some kind of er, weaving being demonstrated. +And it, er, er, cos I say demonstrated because we've got these two people here, er this man and the little girl there who are obviously, erm on a visit to this mill watching what's going on. +So i it's a, it's a a straightforward demonstration. +And er I think that's er, the actual composition with the three people in it is quite good. +It is a little bit weak and it lacks a bit of punch. +You know, it's a bit sort of er washed out. +I think a bit more contrast added to it would help it does lack a little bit of contrast. +Erm I just wonder whether it might not have been better to move round a little bit to the left so we could have seen the lady's hand and sa as well er er and as well as her face, you know, we've gotta get we can see what she's doing, know what she's doing but it'd been nice if you could have included her hands. +And er yes i also, I would think, it's a little unfortunate this chap happened to have his hand up on that er post there,yo you know, it's a little bit er ungainly, it's not sort of a very elegant sort of po I'm not su suggesting he should pose for you, but I think, maybe had you waited until perhaps he moved his hand out of the way, it might have been a better erm composition. +Erm a five for that. +And so +Kathle Sorry. +Sorry. +Kathleen. +As opposed to the candid portrait, we've now got a a formal portrait, obviously taken er in a studio or erm with light, well I don't know +about pho photographic studio, but certainly lights and a background erm of some nature being used to produce this photograph. +Now with photographs of young ladies you need a soft light cast shadows. +I'm sure a lot of cliches, you hear cliches from judges er but you know, some facts erm are bound to be repeated with na and with being a photographer you,yo normal female photography you do need er soft lighting, you don't want harsh lights and shadows. +The they, there are always exceptions to the rule. +This one's, certainly, got very soft lighting. +Erm, no harsh shadows anywhere on her face. +Nice flaunting of the er the erm the face, her cheeks there. +Nice lighting on the hair. +And I like the inclusion too, of just a little bit of jewellery, not too much. +This earring here, this pendant earring just lifts that area up just a little bit, not too much, not too obtrusive, but just enough for sort of a a highlight catching the pendant earring just to lift it up a little. +And particularly I like the background too. +I think the erm breaking up of the background with his sort of mottled tones,, or whatever it is, whether it's the background, you know th the background paper or lights, there's lots of ways you can achieve that. +And it is important that the background has got some interest, but no so much interest that you've forgotten about the subject. +That's a nine for that one. +Howard . +Western Isles, Scotland. +Erm the use of the letter box format here, this long, narrow format is ideal for this type of landscape. +Well for most landscapes to be honest. +Er, I think fit into the horizontal format le within the vertical, but, when you've got long, sort of, gentle slopes like this, and expanses of water I think if you can narrow it down, as you've done here, that helps too. +So I like the the narrow er letterbox format. +The other good thing about this is the recession through it. +The, the way the hills get lighter as you go through until we get right to the back and you finish up with a little bit of erm very light cloud beyond the hills in the distance. +It's not a great exciting er, picture. +It's not, the light over the water is perhaps a little bit disappointing. +Erm i it doesn't it's got plenty of ripple on it. +I'm surprised that we're not picking up a bit more a few more highlights, it's a bit. +It hasn't got any sparkle to it. +But I think, it looks a, a bit like a ploughed field, you know, but when you, it's obviously, water but it, it doesn't look wet like water should do. +Now the boat there with, with the wash, yeah that's fine. +But,the light, I think, is perhaps, the thing which lets it down, just a little. +It's a pity really because the hills and so on beyond are, I think, fine cos the, I like the way it's presented and very, very nicely mounted. +Just lacks a little bit of er quality lighting. +So a seven for that one. +Sunshine and Sunshine and Shadow. +Sunshine and Shadow. +Yeah well certainly er it's got the, the title which explains erm, what the photographer was trying to portray. +These er on when they look to be the cloisters of a cathedral, although, when you look through they seem to open out into street, so I'm not quite sure exactly what sort of building it is. +It seems to turn into a street when you get beyond you know, those archways. +Erm again, it's not quite as sharp as I would like to see it, it's a little bit er unsharp . +Erm, another thing too it's a, just a pity that that chap there, well both of them actually are standing whe pity they couldn't be persuaded to move over a little bit because they are, you see this chap in a dark suit, he's right against that very dark archway there. +The only real reason you get to know that there's somebody there because you can see the legs and the sort of, sort of head, but yo it does tend to get a bit lost against the background. +So you're not standing in quite the right place. +I like the idea of the sort of archways looking out to the right letting light sort of fall in and it, and make a nice pool of light ideal for somebody who's standing, but he's not standing in quite the right place. +He's not picking up the, the light. +Which is a shame. +Nice archways there. +Very interesting shapes in the roof. +But it does lack a bit of erm quality. +A five for that. +The Closed Door. +Another door. +Another very simple you can er another simple picture. +Very similar to the steps that we saw +Mm. +erm earlier on. +This one, I think, is nice. +I don't think it's quite as nice as the, the previous one. +It's er erm a little bit more straightforward a we're looking straight onto this wall, looking straight onto the steps, and we're looking straight onto the door, so everything is looking, sort of erm full-faced as it were and I think that makes for a less interesting composition than the previous one. +Being sort of at an angle to it and, but i it first of all it allows you to see textures in the wall and things rather better, erm and it makes for generally speaking, a more interesting composition. +You see, these steps here tend to look as if it's a pile of beams or something with a door standing on top, but you quite clearly see those steps, but you don't get the depth of the steps so everything is a bit flat. +The whole thing tends to get flat. +Certainly, it's a very interesting door, and it's got nice er positioning of the of the er and so on. +And I'm sure that there is a the thing is, it's quite a nice photograph but I'm not too happy with the actual view. +I think it would be better, in my own experience, move over to that er the left a little bit just to go for a slightly more interesting composition. +A seven for that one. +Eileen . +That's er +Mm. +the name of the place is it? +It's a co is that the one with the castle? +It's a castle. +Yeah. +Yeah. +That's is Eileen's then. +Oh! +Right. +Oh sorry, I've got, I've got written here. +No. +I'm sorry. +Print number eight. +It's got +Oh yes. +Yes. +Yeah. +Mm. +Yes it is. +Erm, now this a a castle which I'm sure has been photographed thousands and thousands of times. +Erm, I can never remember the name of it and I, I, and I forget it by the time I get home, but , the name of the castle that is. +But it's erm often photographed a I've don't recall seeing it photographed from this actual point. +Er, er it I think the whole place is sort of over the other side there's a, sort of a bridge there and possibly, I mean, I'm sure that I've seen a photograph from the other side . +Erm with this sort of landscape I always credit the type of lens which is being used, and I think a wide angle lens has been used here, because we could see there's been a lot of interest created in the foreground, and this is what a a wide angle lens will do for you in, in, in a landscape. +It will create interest in the foreground which I think is important and often, especially looking across water an expanse of water if you haven't got any interesting detail in the foreground yo you have to go a long way into the picture before it begins to get interesting. +So, don't forget the foreground, and the best way to emphasize the foreground is with a a wi wide angle lens. +Something wider than a standard lens. +A thirty five millimetre or something that'll be quite erm yeah, I think the er cloud and sky is nice and the foreground is nice. +It's just a pity that the castle itself is a little bit indistinct I mean, when you stand away from it you can't er you can hardly see the castle there and er, it is an attractive castle, photographed many times but I would just like to see that shown up a little more in the picture. +And I think possibly you could er, with a little bit of erm er slightly more contrasting in the back maybe. +Er, and I think perhaps that castle could be persuaded to show up just a little more than it does. +It does tend to get lost in the boundaries. +Erm another seven for that one there. +Fingers Crossed. +Yeah. +Fingers crossed for luck. +Yeah it's a I would guess that this er we you know, when they come down and the strips and they go back up again, it looks as if perhaps that's what's happened here because the the rope has sort of got this twist in it and one imagines that when they jump down it's not quite er er right and so perhaps he's on his way back up again. +But er, nevertheless, I think er it's a, obviously a spectac a spectacular thing to watch. +To stand down here and see this idiot who's gonna leap off +there. +Erm er it's quite a spectacular thing to watch, I imagine if you're there. +As a photographic subject, but yeah, I, it's simple and it's, it's a bit sort of small, the actual, I don't know how you could make it any bigger but I do don't know what you could do. +Really, the, the real point of interest is the chap who's doing the person rather, who's the doing the jump. +Erm I suppose having this great exten extended crane there does give a good impression of height, but, the action is here and i it's a little small in the frame and, but although I'm sure, you know, there's quite a fe I imagine there's a lot of people standing around watching and so on, but as a photograph at the end of the day I'm not sure it has quite enough impact to be erm terribly interesting. +It's a an interesting thing to do, I'm sure, er but erm maybe you should have the jump taken the photograph on the way down. +But er yeah, it's, it's I find it loses er, a little bit of interest fairly quickly erm because it's, the main subject, the chap jumping down, I think the road was nicely shown, but perhaps if you could have just had a, a longer lens just to make it a bit more important in the picture. +Er, five for that one. +Leica Three C, manufactured nineteen forty nine to nineteen fifty. +Well +Well this to, to photograph anything, this just happens to be a camera and I suppose that would appeal to a lot of camera collectors to people that I er er who I work with, people I know, friends and that, they know I'm interested in photography and they always ask me about cameras +and I hate it! +I +and I say well, you know, I'm not really interested in cameras. +Oh! +Alright. +No, I'm interested in photographs but not so much in cameras. +I, I'm interested in the cameras which I use and that's it. +So, I really know nothing about Leica cameras, I've never used one, I don't particularly know anything about them. +Cos this happens to be a camera but it could just as well be er an electric toaster, or any, any inanimate object taken er, in this fashion, and the thing you've got to do if you take a photograph of an inanimate object er, like this, is to light it correctly, er it's got to show all the erm, detail finely, and it's got to have good quality in the printing. +And I think this one does. +I think the lighting on it is excellent. +When you look at the erm the, all the engraving around the various controls and the nerving on the knobs here, all very nicely lit. +And even, although you can't read it all, it's very hard because it's sort of at a an oblique angle. +Even the engraving and writing on the top on, on, on the top of the viewfinder here is nicely lit, you can see that it's er er, the light is catching all the various edges of the engraving on the top. +So, very nicely lit. +Erm where it has lost a little bit of the quality of the lighting is round the base. +You see, especially here, that sort of erm white metal bit, the er brushed chrome sort of finish on that tends to get a little bit lost in this white background. +It doesn't here, that's fine, it's great here, but, at the bottom because it, it's not being lit quite so well as the top you're tending to lose a little bit of quality, especially there. +Not so much there, little bit better there, but that bit so, okay, it's er, you've set yourself a task to do a sort of a lighting exercise to photograph this camera er so,yo you you know, you must really control the lights and the do the best you can. +But I think you've done very well, with just one little weak area round that but but it's not easy to do, you've got a very light background and you've got a very dar presumably black body of the camera +so you you've got a very contrasting to start with. +So, to get the exposure right and get the the whole thing right throughout is, is not an easy task to do. +And this has almost worked, just a slight there. +So, a seven for that one. +Seven. +Yes. +Sarah. +Very nice er nicely presented er print. +Lovely mounting and very clean and crisp. +And I often say that young ladies who are looking over their shoulder like this, you've gotta be careful of the neck because when they turn round and look over their shoulder you get creases in the neck, and there is a slight crease in the neck there but most of it has been disguised by covering it with her hair, so look out for that when you have a young lady, or anybody, looking over their shoulder, particularly with young ladies, when they look over their shoulder like that it does cause creases in the side of the neck which can be unsightly. +Erm I think you've been conscious of that and have made sure the hair has covered the creases up. +Erm the light on her hair is excellent. +Very nice lighting on her hair. +Again, that sort of mottled background, I don't know whether it's the same background, but it's very similar to the one +we had earlier. +This time we've er included her hand and because she's got nail varnish on er, you've got the sort of highlights coming from the nails which tend to accen accentuate her fingers. +However, they're not too obtrusive, they do sort of when you're looking at her shoulder here and her hand wasn't there I could well imagine that you'd get a bright highlight off her shoulder, so maybe putting hands there it has helped in er, er to, to eliminate that. +So, yeah, I quite er like the use of the hand in that one. +Sometimes hands can be a bit of a problem, but I don't think it is there. +Erm I think it's just a little too much looking over their shoulder because sh to, to, in order to look at the camera she's having to keep her eyes over really,yo you know really over to her er right, and erm it tends to be a little bit erm uncomfortable. +I think perhaps not quite so much, you know, bending of the head might have been slightly more comfortable. +Nevertheless, I think that's good. +Eight, for that one. +Gordon . +Green Bottles. +Green Bottles ha? +I'll take your word for that. +Hanging on the wall. +Yes they look like erm yeah I thought they were gourds when I first saw them. +I thought they're good gourds. +Good gourd ! +And by, Gordon. +Yeah. +Yeah, they are gourds. +Are they? +Anyway yeah, there's three of them which is good er number to have. +Any subject er three seems to suit, all odd numbers, funny enough, seem to better than o even numbers, I dunno why, but erm maybe I've been told that by so many judges I begin to believe it. +Erm, but, yeah, I think three is a good number. +The third one up here, the small one, is a little bit sort of lost because it's against er, this sort of cavity light here so that one tends to get a little bit lost. +These two are quite erm clear. +Erm the actual shape of them is er quite quite interesting and fairly unusual shapes so that's er, an interesting feature. +I don't find the the the overall thing terribly interesting. +I don't think it's a er maybe it's because the background, I think, I'm just trying to make up my mind why it loses a bit of interest, and I think what happens is, that the background being, having all this foliage which is lots of light pouring on er, all this sort of twiggery round here is er picking up lots of highlights and that tends to detract from the fairly plain shapes and smooth surfaces of the gourds. +So, so, I think the background, I think, as I said earlier on that keep the photograph simple and I think this one, perhaps, has got too much background. +It's one of those where the background tends to overpower the subject. +Certainly that one is totally overpowered by the background and these ones are tending to be just a little bit. +I think it would have been perhaps better if you, somehow er, maybe er I dunno, you could erm, nothing to do with you so you ri you're not in a position to be able to move them erm but if it was possible to put them in a, a different situation I think would have made a more interesting picture. +Er, six for that one. +The Porch Way. +This is a, you know, this is the third one which is er was similar to others we've had, the steps and we had the other door and a few steps down, and then, this is all similar types of photographs and all taken from different sort of angles. +Erm, one, the first one, nice angle to the stairs and the other one looking straight on, and this sort of half and ha half. +It falls between the two. +I think the composition again is simple, which is, nice light, the simplicity of it. +Er I particularly like the land that it's on there, that adds a bit of interest to it, it's another view, another sort of point to attract your eye. +But I think perhaps, that in a way that becomes the main point is that, although it's called The Porch Way, I mean, you know that's fair enough because you can see it is a porch, it's not clearly defined we we've got this sort of two pillars here, and a little bit of green, so they're losing a bit of shape of the porch er and this becomes the sort of erm main er point of the picture. +I it it's, I think the porch itself again is we're not showing the shape of the porch and the details of the porch in sufficient detail and it's a pity really because I think that there is a, a nice photograph to be had there. +Er again, it's all down to where you're going to stand to take the photograph, and I'm not so sure that you I think you've gone a little,no you know, I, I criticized the other one a bit, from the same person I think it possibly is because it's the same style, the same sort of mounting. +Erm but I think it's gone a bit too far the other way this time unfortunately. +But, it's nice quality, very good printing, erm another seven for that. +Ha. +Ne next one is no title. +Well you couldn't really get much more simple than that. +Just this post on a pebbly beach somewhere, er with some very nice clouds in the in the sky. +And I think er the quality of the printing is again very good. +The clouds are nicely shown, the pebbles are nicely shown. +And, as this post here, with, whatever it is, it looks as if it's got some paddings on the ground, maybe a, a boat sometimes gets moored up to it and that's just to stop the boat er banging up agai maybe the tide comes in that far, I don't know. +Erm the actual post I liked, I'm glad it's standing up above the horizon because at least that way, you know,i it does it's given some dominance in the picture. +But once you get down below the horizon you get to look round this area here where there's some rope tangled round, some kind of padding, it does tend to get a little bit lost amongst all the pebbles. +So maybe, it would have been better if you could have even got down a bit lower and to, to, to get more of it from the horizon. +I think the idea of using this in the foreground er, as I was saying, with landscapes, and the same thing applies to seascapes as well, it's nice to have a bit of detail lower down, but I don't think that the the background, the sort of, main part of the photograph is terribly strong. +I think it really needs to be the whole photograph needs to be given more strength on making more of this post here. +I think the bit that stands up above the horizon is fine, I mean I think that gives you a good idea of what it would have been like had you been able to get the whole, or not perhaps the whole of it, but a lot more of the post up above the horizon simply by getting down lower. +So six and a half for that one. +Six and a half? +Yes. +Thank you. +Next one is The Shrimper. +I think this is a chap +Yep. +wading out there with a shrimp net. +Erm well perhaps . +And again, we've got three boats. +Er three, a nice number to have of any subject. +And they're nicely separated. +But often boats moored up on the river tend to blend into one another, but these three boats are completely separate, separated, they don't overlap each other at all . +Erm although we can, if you look closely you can see that this chap has got a shrimp net in his hand, er so you get a fair idea of what's going on. +There's a someone here with a couple of dogs. +Erm but,he's a bit sort of lost in it, he's, he doesn't have any dominance really. +I think he's overpowered by the three white blobs of the boats. +It tends to it tends to be a bit lost in the earthiness of the mud and the water. +Er, you can see that this is a I don't know whether, it appears to be darker at the centre than it is round the edges, I don't know whether you tried to burn it in just a little bit in the middle, holding back the edges, but it's, it's got sort of a darkish patch i in the centre. +Erm yeah I, I, it's the idea's there but I think it does lack a little bit of impact. +Th the boats are fine but the the main human interest in it does tend to be, in fact, the personally, the two dogs has has more prominence in the picture than this chap, which is a pity. +I think possibly a long lens, just the having sort of, the two boats, again, that might have been better. +And a five for that one. +Dusk on Derwentwater. +Yeah. +Nice lighting on the hills beyond +this is a very good example of er putting interesting detail in the foreground in the way that tall bit of wood there is really making quite a a, an interesting subject in itself in the foreground. +Also, the fence which runs out into the the lake er just breaks up the the distance between the the piece of wood and the bank. +Because the water in itself er, I'm sure that when you're there it's erm it's a beautiful place to be, but the water in itself in this photograph has not got the best of light on it. +You don't get the good, really good light until you get across the water and out onto these hills and that's where the the good light is in that erm top i third of the picture I think is where the real quality is. +Erm, the bottom of the picture, perhaps not quite such good quality, but certainly it's got er, interesting detail. +Lovely clouds. +That, sort of, it's got the, it's one of those sort of days I think when you've got lots of cloud about broken clouds, so every now and again the sun will come through and light up different areas of the picture. +Er, and that's, that's the sort of light you do need for landscapes, and that's happening over here. +Just not quite such lowish light on that er, foreground, but certainly interesting detail there. +An eight for that one. +Mm. +No title for the last one. +You see this post standing up here now we've got down a lot lower this time, in fact, I think, it's the same post. +Yeah. +The erm much, given much more dominance in the picture by making it stand right up above the horizon. +And I think this one is better for several reasons, I think you can quite clearly see now once you've had a chance to look at this, the other one we saw, we, we eliminated this boat, we eliminate that post and this boat, or rather we just have this post and the sea beyond. +Now, same sky +It's the same. +but I think now you've included this little foreground it really brings the whole picture to life. +And a very good example, if you put these two together just to see what you can do by moving round to a different viewpoint. +Er, don't always take the first one and that you take loads of picture around, if you see an interesting subject, make sure you move around and take loads of pictures, and then select the one for printing. +And I think this is a very good erm er illustration of that fact. +All you had to do here was to move back a few steps and you've made it much more interesting in the foreground. +So a much more satisfying picture erm yeah I think that one works much better. +So, and eight and a half for that one. +Gordon . +Okay, so we start judging? +Well yo yes you can do Mark. +Let's get three of copies and if you do three of the colour you'll be half way. +Yeah. +We should be. +Alright. +Right. +Okay er +That's called It's My Teddy. +Yeah, and I think the way she's cuddling the teddy bear and that expression on her face seems to, to, to suit the title. +And also, the use of the yellow background, I don't know, erm whether it was deliberately chosen or whether she just happened to be standing there, but the yellow background makes it stand out. +Erm, you know, it's the sort of picture which captures your eye, and this is one thing you should try and do with your photography is to capture the onlooker's eye or eye, and having the yellow background, it does. +I like the er, you know, the nice little grin on her face, and the way she's cuddling the teddy, erm teddy that happens to be a rabbit, it leaves us +the teddy is a rabbit you could say. +Mm mm. +Er yeah, I think that one's quite a nice family album er portrait. +It's not a great competition-winning portrait, but er certainly, it's fine, sort of family album stuff and the sort of thing which'll be in the family for many, many years to come. +When she's sort of, twenty five or thirty, someone will drag this out and say, oh no! +Not that again. +But er nevertheless, it would be kept er for many, many years and quite deservedly so. +Erm a seven for that. +Seven. +Now +Dusk at Finchingfield Mill. +I think the er one of the things which helps this one, is the way it's been mounted. +I think this large mount, tends, somehow tends to accentuate the er the windmill certainly the colour, the sort of creamy colour of the mount, and the creamy colour of the windmill go nicely together, as do the sort of more subtle colours in the sky. +And er, it's difficult to know quite how to photograph windmills. +Er, you know, do you include all the four sails? +Or do you move around and just erm concentrate on one or more of them? +Do you have them going right to the edge ? +You've gotta make up your mind how you're going to photograph them. +And I think this one is reasonably successful. +I often think that perhaps putting the hub of the sails in, more or less in the centre of the picture perhaps, not the best place, but I think because in this case, we've got a lot of trees down to the bottom here. +Although the, the hub of the sails is more or less in the centre of this photograph it's not in sent not in the sense of, of the area of vision because you've got a lot of dark area here so that tends to move the centre of vision so it becomes this bit, if you like, and so that's not in the centre there. +So, it doesn't really matter so much in this particular case. +A seven for that picture. +This one is called Nonnie. +Nonnie, Nonnie, Nonnie. +Nonnie, Nonnie. +Erm the idea of, sort of, close cropping as you've done here and, you know, that's quite a an acceptable and well-known method of showing facial portraits. +And I think it does work nicely because it,th most of the frame is filled with the girl's hair and she's got nice blonde hair, nicely lit, that erm is a good way of showing off her head. +The light on the hair is fine. +Where it's not quite so good I feel is on her face. +You got this, sort of shiny nose and quite vast shadow there and then quite bright highlight on her bottom lip. +So the light on her face is just a little bit too harsh. +I don't know whether a reflector or a, an umbrella was used, but it does need something, er, some form of lighting which is a little less harsh. +I find that there's, you know a lot of shade on her face er which is a shame. +I like the use of the pe the pearls have made, I think that's good. +And the earring does a very nice job there. +Tt. +Just a, I find that she almost looks as if she's been out in the sun and that it sort of looks like very strong sunlight on her face which is a shame really. +Needs to be softer, needs to be softer and that can be done by using a a diffuser over the light, using an umbrella, any way that you can soften, like using a reflector, all kinds of things to do. +Erm yeah it's a pity really. +Er, a seven er for that one. +Next one, Two's a Pair. +And although these are obviously er at some kind of show because if you look beyond the horses you can see there are marquees and so on in the background. +So it's presumably er a competition or a or er demonstrating the old fashioned agricultural machinery. +It's obviously a show, and I mean you could well imagine that in the old days you need horses were really used to do a full day's work, they didn't have quite such er nice clean tack a as these ones . +Certainly they are magnificent animals. +And they are, and they're magnificently photographed. +The two erm handlers here, I don't know whether there's one who's handling and the other one's just sort of having a chat with him about but, you know, they they're important in the picture but they're not er you know, the horses completely dominate the, the two people in the picture. +And it's nice, I think, to include this plough, if that's what it is. +No it's, yeah it is a plough. +Er, this is a harrow plough. +Er, so it's a nice to include that lovely bit of old machinery as well. +Very handsome pair of horses, nicely photographed. +It's not got the creative thing, which, I mean, competition, to get a a ten, or a nine, you've gotta really have some creative element in it, this hasn't quite got that, but it is a very strong picture and, and very nicely photographed so I'll give this one, eight. +Eight. +Nigel . +I don't know if I saw, or that one. +Yeah. +If you'd like to do this one Mark then you can have a break +Yeah. +and tha you're, you're +Okay. +just over half way. +Alright. +Erm well he's certainly you know, he would go ideally with the horses, I don't know whether this one is +at the same show er +Ha. +show or whatever, I, +Mm. +I could well, could well be the same event as that because he certainly looks to be the right sort of character. +Got a lovely erm weather-beaten face and the way he's wearing his hat. +I dunno, I dunno whether he's erm he really could be, I mean he could be the thing is he could be compared to a hobo. +But erm certainly with this style of hat was commonly worn I suppose to his and by the people who work on the land, certainly in this part of the world. +But he has got the continental grammar sort of Italians, you know what they're like. +Erm, but certainly erm but er he's certainly got an interesting face. +And it's nicely lit. +Er we, we this time we don't mind that we've got fairly harsh lighting because he's a, someone who's used to being out in the erm all weathers whether it's cold or sunny, I have a feeling mostly sunny. +Erm so that's fine, to have a harsher lighting on his face is fine cos it does tend to show up the er the wrinkles in his forehead, under his eyes and his whiskers which is fine because when erm my old portraits of this nature, that's the sort of thing you're trying to emphasize. +And I like, I like the way he's got his hat on. +Erm if he was local, if he was from Chelmsford we would say he was wearing his hat in the Hollywood fashion, I don't know whether +whether that means anything to people who live in Bishop's Stortford but I've always lived in Chelmsford and people who wore their hat sort of at a flaunty angle on the back of their heads were always seem to wearing their hats in the Hollywood fashion. +Erm +but er then I suppose it doesn't matter where they come from because it's er yeah, very nice. +I like that. +Right a nine for that one. +Gerald . +Right. +Okay. +Yes. +But er this is a sort of a you know, jigsaw puzzle, chocolate box that type of thing. +Erm, nothing derogatory meant er by that because the reason photographs are used for chocolate boxes and biscuits and things and jigsaw puzzles is cos they're good photographs and they, they're subjects which people like. +This is a very nicely lit cottage. +You can see that the er erm the texture in the plasterwork, certainly on the front here is nicely shown. +And er, I like the fact that we've got similar cottages down here, we've got this one here, but similar ones there so there's nothing in the picture which sort of erm detracts from that er very pretty, that little cottage. +Nice sky. +And just a hint of sea in the background. +Now we, we, the title tells us that's in Cornwall, it doesn't really matter where it is but erm just a hint of the sea, a, a super place to live I should think there. +Erm, you know, there's a very nice cottage and just a short walk down the road you're at the se at the sea. +And, also I think it's very fortunate that er the two cars that are in the picture have been very nicely disguised by the sort of containers, these brick erm this, this appears to be sort of a stone or a brick wall there with sort of flowers growing in them, which has very nicely dis disguised those two cars that are parked there. +So, that's good. +There's nothing in the picture I don't, there's not even a television aerial or +Mm. +anything, there's nothing in there which does, just a few er telephone lines er, going across the skyline there but they're very faint, you can hardly see them, you've gotta look very closely to see them. +Yeah, I, I kinda like that one. +It sort of grows on you and it, it's er very good quality, er nice colours. +A nine for that one. +Gordon . +Breaking Waves. +Yeah. +I thought he said er breaking +Now, +waves . +remember I said earlier on in one of the black and white ones that we haven't, we've got some water there which hasn't got nice lines on, well this, this water certainly has. +Look at the way those,tha beyond the waves there, that piece of water, a lovely light on it. +All the ripples in the waves nicely shown. +A very simple picture, again, it's er you couldn't have anything much more simple than this, just two waves coming in onto the shingle beach and er you can almost hear the the the waves rushing u running across the shingle. +Erm I think the, the thing about it, which I th the good points about it th are the light on it, the light on the water here, the light on the waves here, and even on this one and also, I think, the choice of mount is very good, that you know, to choose the blue, it may be a bit obvious but I mean I, you'd be surprised what some people do with their mounts. +Erm you can, something like this on a red mount or something, you can imagine it would be absolutely hopeless. +But to, to, to make it all a very nice gentle sort of colours throughout, including the mount is the right sort of thing to do. +I think possibly it needs something just to break up this, sort of, the lines, you just got those bands of waves going across there. +Er, would have been nice if there'd been a rock or something for one of them to break over. +It's just a little bit sort of er the waves themselves are nice but I think they do need something else in it just to erm break up the linearity of the er er, of the composition. +A seven and a half. +Tied up. +I think. +Yes. +Yep. +Well I'll be nice little er, a very small boat there but because it's, of the colour it has a lot of impact. +It's only a tiny little dinghy, two people in there is about as much as you could manage. +Erm but it's got impact because of the colour even the the trolley that it's standing on erm, has got er red wheels, and this yellow sort of er towing bar there. +No, beg your pardon! +It's not a towing bar it's another boat. +I thought it was a towing bar for that, but it's another boat sort of down in the in the se se harbour. +And that's the colour of the boat. +Erm so it's got a, erm a little bit of impact because of the colouring to start with. +Erm yeah, it's reasonable quality. +It's er good colours on the this stone bollard here. +Quite nice colours the lichen and what have you that's growing on there. +Erm maybe the the composition, having the boat sort of, the bow of the boat just hidden behind there is perhaps er not be better. +Yeah I know if you'd have moved round to the other side that would have been in the shadow so you wouldn't have got those nice bright colours. +Er bit of a problem with the contrast too, I think the fact that the boat is white on the inside and the rest of it er fairly dark, I mean +this, this is obviously where the brightest area is and that is becoming a bit burned out because erm if it was an automatic camera that was used it's exposed for this consequently over-exposing on the inside of the boat. +Especially painted white and it is reflecting an awful lot of light. +A seven for that one. +In Pastures Green. +Mm. +Couple of very nice horses. +It's er good composition having the two separated like that. +You know, often horses do stand close together and they, sometimes you get them overlapping and that is not the best thing to do, it's nice to have them separated if you possibly can. +So when you see a pair of horses move round and so that you do get them separated as they are, or any animal, not just horses, any animals really, get them separated, er or any, any object really, it's better to have a little bit of separation. +Erm +yeah, I think it's a very pleasant picture. +It's not it doesn't, it's not got a lot of er excitement about it, it's very pleasant, you can't criticize it for erm exposure, colours are good. +So I'm very, it's not a picture which unless you are sort of mad keen on horses that i it's perhaps not a picture which erm will hold your interest for too long. +You know, nothing a very pleasant picture er o of a couple of horses, very attractive horses, but if you're not a a horse enthusiast perhaps it hasn't got quite the same impact, er, as it otherwise would have. +The er pleasant background, nice light on the horses, but I find the, the subject matter, you know, okay, it's okay but it's not a great competition winning er, picture. +A six for that one. +Here's somebody having a go at something a little creative. +Altered States. +Altered State. +Yeah, certainly is an altered state. +Erm, er you know, I don't, I wouldn't even begin to suggest how this particular effect was achieved. +I mean, it er portrait really is the right sort of subject to, to try out this kind of technique because er, it doesn't have impact, and here because the green and the erm er, this,th for want of a better colour, it's really red, it's a sort of purply colour, they're very dark and th the, the actual head doesn't really stand out very much from the from the background, I think the background +colour and th they're, they're too much they're too dark and er they need to be, have more contrast. +And I'm not so sure that portrait is the best possible erm medium to use, or the best possible photograph to use for this type of er trick. +I think that erm modern structure and that sort of thing, this type of treatment +tends to work better, I'm not so sure portrait is the right thing to do. +Erm er a it's, it's almost an abstract, it's a, you know, if, if one would accept that as an abstract and forget that it's a portrait then it's perhaps works a little better. +The two colours don't go too badly together but er I'm not so sure that I would really want that hanging on the wall, I, it doesn't really appeal to me very much. +Sorry about that. +But another judge will come along and give it a fine mark, but +I'm gonna give it a five. +The Dordogne. +The Dordogne. +Mhm. +Yeah, I guessed it was certainly vineyards, I'm you know, quick like that, you know. +Erm yes, well the high viewpoint obviously is er er a thing which I think makes the picture. +It now whether you're taking a portrait or anything at all it's always more interesting I think, if you can take a a slightly different viewpoint, a di whether it's up high or down below, or whatever er i that always adds interest to it. +We're looking down here, obviously standing on a hill because here we've got some plants which are on the hillside and there's a river here so we're on sort of a fairly steep slope, I would imagine, down to the river, looking over across these vineyards. +Erm nice lighting very good sort of er gentle lighting across the countryside there, nothing very dramatic. +Erm, not much drama in the sky. +It's a very pleasant picture. +Not a great competition-winning shot but er, at the same time it's a, it's a nice enough shot of this particular area. +A very beautiful part of France. +Erm being that I, one of the bits which I think catches your eye is this little house here, although there's lots of them about, because this one tends to be in a slightly darker area, and for some reason that, the light on there is sort of picking that one out rather more than all the others, and I think that's quite a nice little feature. +A seven for that one. +That +Le Tower D'Eiffel. +Ooh! +Yeah. +Oh! +Dear oh dear! +I like your French accent. +He didn't know he's +Yes. +Well yeah, as I say very recognizable subject isn't it? +I +Mhm. +I +I haven't been to Paris since er ooh a long time a whe last time I went there I was on honeymoon so that's a few years ago. +Erm +Did you see the Eiffel Tower ? +and er so there's a landmark now, I don't think tha that was there when I was there. +My wife's been a couple of times si since then but not me. +Erm yeah it's a, again, a very straightforward shot of a very well internationally known landmark erm but I think to stand sort of at an angle to this bridge, sort of, so you're, the bridge leads you up to the archway underneath the tower is a nice viewpoint. +So you obviously thought about where you were going to stand. +It might, you might be tempted to walk along the embankment a little further and, and look along the bridge, and er, sort of straight at the tower. +And I don't think that would be anywhere nearly so effective. +Much more effective to to get the very attractive bridge in as well. +And the the boat going underneath just er at the right sort of time. +Yeah, I think that's good. +It's not a erm you know, it's, it's, it's not a a sort of print which is going to be exhibited on exhibition walls er er to that extent, but it's a very pleasant erm shot. +It's a very competent shot. +Not a, pity there's not a, one or two clouds in the sky. +An eight for that one. +Nigel . +Seljuk Peasant Turkey. +I do wondered how you were gonna say that George, that, you know that +Yeah, I like this one. +I think it's a super erm +portrait and erm you can see that she's knitting. +Er, lovely light on her hands and on her face, and er this lovely quality, nice colours and I think that is a super portrait. +Erm the background, can't, having the tree in the background just to fill up the erm the bare sky is ideal. +She almost has a three D effect, I er, you know her face really stands out from that background. +I, I get a very strong three D impression from her head. +She's stan really sa of stands out from the the background. +I like that one. +Erm be careful with your titles cos it's not easy to title them. +That title is perhaps a not quite as straight as it might be, it's got a little bit of a kink in it. +Though, using Letraset to title them is not easy to do, you know it's very difficult to keep them on a straight line. +Mm mm. +Erm but nevertheless I do think that is a a super portrait. +I can't really criticize it all really. +I'm gonna give that one a ten. +Gerald . +Over the stile. +I think the strong point of this is the light. +I mean the lovely golden light on the the grass very late afternoon light I would suggest and it's got this lovely warm colour on the grass. +And on this hillside over here. +And having someone just climbing over the stile is a good idea with the signpost pointing. +It doesn't really matter which way it's going. +And er yo you get the impression that it's late in the day, the sky's a bit stormy and maybe it's time to be thinking about er getting home and er I get the impression that that person climbing over the stile is sort of on his way home after having a super day out walking in the the Yorkshire Dales or somewhere like that. +And er, the pubs are open. +Yeah, well it could be . +Yeah, that's very, very nice. +Lovely colours and er a very nice light in the, in the sky and on the grass here. +Perhaps again, it lacks just a little bit of sharpness which you've lost. +The colours, the quality and the colours are fine. +The actual quality in the, in the er print the sharpness, er that sort of thing, is perhaps not quite as good as it should be but I still, an eight for that one. +Eight? +Gordon . +Knossos, Crete. +Knossos. +Knossos. +Ka nossos. +Ka nossos. +Yes, it's a a typical sort of Mediterranean er lighting, or Aegean I suppose is it? +Erm if you wanna be really accurate. +Er, it's got a very lo strong clear sunlight which er is quite attractive for the type of scene. +Not attractive for every subject but for the where you get these old erm broken walls or summat like that, it's ideal for showing up er textures and so on, this type of lighting. +This is often why it works, I think, in er, in the Mediterranean er and places in that area. +Er just a little bit of cloud in the sky which is good. +I suppose +you've got to have the tourist there, it's a I find, tourists, they always wear the wrong sort of clothes. +I feel a little guilty, but they've always got shorts and T-shirts, which, really, often, to my mind, +spoil photographs of places such as this. +Erm +you know, we would li I don't mind people being in it, but I'd rather, you know, can you imagine that er the Greek priest we had in the very first print +I mean he would fit into this er in a, in, in a superb way. +Erm so we just have to accept that tourists don't dress in those sort of clothes. +Yeah, I think that's a got nice lighting, nice quality in it. +Er +a seven and a half for that. +Brooding Skyline. +Yeah I think the, the drama in the sky is the thing which makes this, and the little lighthouse right on the edge of the cliff there showing up quite nicely. +You can imagine that er on some occasions with a li just a little more sunlight that er lighthouse would really stand out. +Yeah, it stands out reasonably well in this one, but I can imagine it standing out even more under other conditions. +Erm the darkening of the edges, I suppose that's been done to create a little more atmosphere in the picture, and I think it possibly does. +And there are some people actually on the beach as well, which I think is important because we've got a lot of empty area here, fairly featureless area, but it's nice to have these two or three people er dotted around on the beach. +Very nice light on these cliffs over here. +Yeah, I think that one works quite well. +An eight for that one. +Heather . +Another studio portrait. +Nadine. +Nadine. +Nadine. +She really looks like Sandy Shaw. +But er +she's got her shoes on there. +Shows your age if you can remember. +Some of you might do as well. +Erm I suppose to most of us here Sandy, Sandy Shaw was . +Yeah it's +Ha. +erm the thing about this title portrait which I always er like to emphasize and is that when you're using props like these stools or any other props at all in this sort of glamour photography then they must be in absolutely pristine condition, and they are here. +I just mentioned that so that when you, if you do this type of photography always remember that your props, whatever they might be, must be absolutely in pristine condition. +We don't want any chipped paint, or rusty legs on the stools or anything like that. +They've gotta be really good er good things. +Otherwise it tends to make the whole picture, like, I went to er er one club once and there was a very nice portrait, not unlike this, there was a girl sitting on a stool, rather less clothes on than this girl has got and it was very nicely done except she was sitting on a painted stool and all the paint was chipped and that to me looked really tacky! +And I thought ah, you know +they're, went to all that trouble to produce a good photograph, and absolutely ruined it with the stool. +So, make sure that everything is in good nick. +Yes. +Erm yeah, I think the pose is quite nice. +I think, possibly erm having the two different stools is a little bit er unfortunate. +Erm I don't know I don't yo I, I think possibly having that foot up on the stool was perhaps a mistake. +Mm. +I think perhaps if you could have arranged her so that er this foot somehow was resting down here, well it might have been better. +It looks a little uncomfortable er like that. +And it looks a little bit sort of set up having that totally different stool brought into the picture. +Erm +I just wonder whether erm I think that stool there might have been better to have her sitting on that one, not quite so high up and she could have adopted a more comfortable pose and she wouldn't have needed another prop for her foot. +So I think perhaps, that's where the picture is not quite right in the, the composition, and also the fact that this stool is sort of +being er chopped off along the side as well as the leg. +So, I think possibly a little more thought in the actual, I think the actual shape of the girl there, the way she's actually sitting is fine, but er it, it looks as if she's been propped up with, you know, you better put this stool under your foot to hold that up and put this crutch under your arm to hold that up and +and so on. +It looks as if she's had these things put there to support her rather than actually casually sitting on them. +But certainly the lighting's quite nice and I think, very pretty girl and could be better with the better composition. +Erm, six and a half for that one. +Feeding Quietly. +Feeding? +Feeding. +Ya. +Eating. +Feeding. +It would be, yeah. +Well it +Quite, quite . +I think erm, often when judges, I don't know whether George or any other judges that might be here tonight, one of the things which I as a judge often dread is photographs of babies coming up in competition. +Not that I've got anything against babies. +But, it's often difficult because quite often they come up and to be absolutely honest they're not that good. +So, you start to criticize them and you think oh my God! +This is someone's baby in the audience that we're, we're having a go at. +But that's not the problem here because I think this one is excellent. +I think the light on er the baby's face, I, I dunno whether it's a little boy or a little girl, but it doesn't matter, the light on the baby's face +is super. +And I certainly love the way that both eyes are catching those lovely highlights! +Great big brown eyes. +very appealing. +Nice light on that sort of, the curls over the forehead. +So we've got lovely soft lighting throughout. +Erm brighter on the side which is furthest away from us, and the fact that he's er, he or she, is eating a, you know a piece of fruit or something is quite appealing. +I like that one. +Not quite a ten because I think it's er you know, this hand here perhaps a little bit er obtrusive but certainly I think that one's worth a nine. +Elaine . +Restored to former Glory. +Yeah I can remember when I was about er seven or eight years old I had a a Hornby train which is almost identical, except it was red, I go I think some other people had one as well. +Hornby loco we had those things you used to pull out of the cabs and they could go +forwards and backwards. +Oh lovely! +Erm and it was almost identical to that. +Very nice quality print. +Er lovely I mean,re re restored in absolute pristine condition. +Magnificently restored locomotive. +And it's standing in the right sort of location in this old station. +Erm a little bit of steam around so you do get an impression that it's erm you know, it's alive and working obviously not doing a day's work, but certainly being restored back to working condition. +And for anybody who's a, a rail enthusiast would be er, very pleased with this shot. +And I think possibly that maybe the little bit of a problem with it, it's a little bit too specialized. +It's very good quality, erm yeah, I think it's, it's it's, the quality of it is good enough to put it up for,i in the sort of higher echelon of marks. +So I shall er I give that one an eight for the quality. +Peter . +Blaze +What +Away. +Ah! +That's an apt title. +Blazing the gun away, Blaze Away. +Yeah. +A little bit of +er thought given to the title of that. +I was quite surprised, er during the summer I went to my grandson's school fete and they had a hot air balloon demonstration there and this er, this car turned up with a trailer on the back with, I dunno, probably some name, hot air balloon name on the trailer, I thought oh yes he's gonna show us how to inflate it and i I was quite amazed from the time he unpacked the balloon to the time it actually took off was only ten minutes. +I was really quite impressed! +I didn't realize that they could be got ready in such a short space of time. +But anyway, very dramatic shot looking up into the mouth of the balloon with this huge flame going up. +I guess th that you must have be actually been in the basket. +We don't get the impression erm of whether you were airborne at that stage. +I would think if you weren't, you must have been very nearly. +Perhaps yeah I think you must have been airborne at that stage to be er, had such a enormous flame going up into the balloon. +Very, sort of, eye-catching because of the nature of it. +And I think it's quite nicely exposed er to show the detail in the erm the burner. +You can see the gas burner here th quite a lot of detail, a hand rail or something around it there, and all the, the details in that burner are quite nicely shown. +But most of all obviously the, the great roar y you know, the tremendous noise that they make. +Or I believe they have got some quieter ones now. +Erm a seven for that one. +Seven. +Ferry Zy de Zi +That's nice . +Looks like a mini Battersea Power Station. +, I dunno . +Erm +yeah I think those three chimneys there are from a, I dunno, is it, looks as if it could be a kiln or something, you know. +Er, it could be, be a pottery, I don't know. +It, they, they certainly look as if they are sort of intended er to heat things up. +That's obviously a furnace +Kiln. +at the bottom of each one of those. +But nice light on the chimneys and on the sky, and throughout the picture really. +I think that's quite intere find a, a nice composition. +And the thing which really makes it are the three chimneys, without those, I think the rest of it would be okay, but not terribly exciting. +I think the three chimneys are vital to the er the strength of the picture. +Quite nice natural colours. +Yeah I think that is er it's not a great competition- winning shot, but I still think a seven and a half for that one. +Seven and a half. +The next one is no title. +Well it doesn't really need a title, it's a er it could be anywhere it's, it, it, sort of got that hint of west country, but it doesn't really matter it's, we're not interested in where it is, we're interested in the the final image. +And er I think the that's quite good. +Although there's some, but these sort of pictures they always look darker than they actually are because you can see the sun is still pretty high up, so, I imagine that the surrounding scene was still in quite sunlight, but, looking straight into the sun, as we are here, albeit behind the clouds +it does have the effect of darkening everything down. +Th the strong highlight on the reflection on the water obviously is a thing which makes the picture as, and also the, the sort of rays of sun coming down through the cloud. +Just enough light around to make out the that tree there, and a little bit of detail in the in the foreshore and obviously the headland. +But erm yeah, it's, it's er good for what it is, but I think this has been done many times before and er I sh would think that everybody's seen some just slightly better than this, but it's quite a nice er sunset. +A nice reflection on the water. +Er, a six for that one. +Olive Trees. +Ah! +A pity there, I was gonna sort of le air my knowledge and say a and say look at these olive trees. +Yes, well, obviously I think, you know they, quite obvious what they are. +Erm +I think again, the choice of the mount is good bu you know we tend to associate olive trees growing in hot erm erm fairly dry areas, and I think the choice of the mount colour accentuates that. +Erm I think possibly just the trees themselves are we you know,th okay they're olive trees, so they're a little bit unusual, we don't get too many olive trees growing in this country, but I'm not so sure that they're as er that attractive to make a, a photograph solely out of the olive trees. +I think, er you know, they're just a, you know, if, if they were erm elm trees or something like that, or you know blackthorn trees here and you'd taken them in this country, you'd say, oh there's a couple of blackthorn trees! +And here we've got a couple that happen to be olive trees, and I, I'm not so sure that just the fact that they're olive trees really is that important. +And I think perhaps it's it lacks a bit of importance, you know, it hasn't got the strength erm to stand up on its own. +It really needs something else. +We need a donkey in it or something like that, you know just to +erm be in keeping with the situation, a donkey there would be, would be nice. +But the trees on their own, it's like a scene waiting for something happen. +It, it's a bit empty. +So a six for that one please. +Deserted +Well +Shore. +The last one. +well guess what? +Deserted Shore. +That's right. +I think you said that. +Someone sent the boat over ! +You know the +You couldn't move around a lot. +Move around a bit more +a bit more +Tip the boat over. +the camera. +And you've got a third photograph. +Yeah, I, I think again, this er deserves a good, it's a good exercise to do this sort of thing, taking colour and black and white because you can then decide whe whether one medium has got an advantage over the other or not. +And you can, you know you can argue about it, it's a good talking point, good discussion point, and I think you you will get different opinions er to, whoever you speak to. +But certainly the fact that this is being in colour, you know, that boat which is lying there becomes much more important. +The red sort of er erm bit round the top of the boat +is er becomes important, as does the colour in the sky. +So it, this has some things in the picture gain importance, although I still the black and white ones. +Er, now you've chosen this time to eliminate the other boat, we know there's another boat around about here somewhere, and we know there's another post here, so erm but if this was shown in isolation we wouldn't have known that. +And I think this one stands up quite nicely on its own. +Very nice quality. +Lovely sky. +I, I particularly like the sky in that one. +Erm, I think possibly again, if you'd got down a bit lower this sort of little rise in the ground there, that er that's a, it's erm what do you call it? +A breakwater would have just risen up above the horizon and come, become slightly more important. +But still, I still think that's quite good. +I'll give that one an eight as well. +Heather . +I must er +Thank you Mark. +That was the last one. +Could we have the lights please. +While George is er doing the marks, I might call on Gerald please to give the vote of thanks. +Evening everybody. +Can you hear, hear me over there? +Yes. +Yes. +Thank you. +Yeah? +Once again, Mr has done us proud. +I've heard hundreds of judges in the last few years and Mr is one of the very few who, in, in every picture delivers a very picture. +He comes up with a little piece of advice on how to make that picture, or the colouring, or the mounting better. +And you don't often see the every picture he tells something, something nice about it. +And compared with mine as well you see. +About this time last year I think it was the same week he came there were five judges that he picked every year for fifteen years. +Oh! +And despite , you know, managed, he somehow he'd get them through and get . +But we've had a very good evening and we must thank Mr for it. +So, in our usual way, a vote of thanks. +Thanks very much Mark, you've given me the hardest part. +Anyway, erm on the night monochrome prints Elaine and Alf tied with twenty four. +Gordon had twenty three and a half. +Heather had twenty one and a half. +And Gloria had sixteen. +So aggregation then with number one, we have Gordon leading the way with fifty and a half. +But Alfie was second with forty nine and a half. +Oh! +So there's not a lot, lot in that. +Heather is forty six, she's third. +Elaine is fourth with forty four. +And technicolour, on the night er top of the shop tonight was Gerald who gave the vote of thanks, who got twenty six and a half. +And but, we have Nigel , Gordon , and Heather +Tt! +all with twenty three. +Vince has twenty two. +Bill and Elaine have twenty one each. +Erm aggregating again with number one Gerald is leading the way with fifty two and a half. +And then we have erm Nigel with forty nine. +And then, Gordon and Heather both with forty six. +Elaine with forty five is fourth. +And Peter forty four and a half is fifth. +Thank you George. +Well done George. +Thanks. +Right, well next week is the auction. +Er we have got some, one or two expensive items so bring your +money bags along. +Er, if anybody's got any items that they haven't told me about tonight and they go before perhaps you'd be kind enough to give me a phone call. +And if you could get here by half past seven those of you who have got items, it'll be much appreciated cos it takes quite a time to to set them out. +Er, the coffee next week is going to made by Jane and Peter . +Er, next week will be the last week for selling tickets for the social so if you'd like to come tickets next week. +And if you haven't made arrangements about your dinner after Christmas, would you please do that now. +I'll leave you to say goodnight, thank you for coming . + +vote against it because the future of our union and the interests of our members is at risk. +Let's take it and prevent a constructive relationship with the T & G developing into an unworkable alliance. +I was gonna say unholy but I took it out, I thought it was a bit strong. +Let's stop wasting our time and effort on going down this road to ruin. +We don't need immediate reaction to UNISON or anyone else. +What we should do is show that we're the best union by effectively representing our members, and if others want to join us, then they can, but on our terms. +I move rejection of the statement. +Southern Region? +, Southern Region. +President, Congress. +The General Secretary has told us that the documen the special document on cooperation with the T & g was carefully written. +It was so carefully written that I've read it three times and I don't think it says anything. +This union has got a long history of, this union's got a long history of amalgamations, some conducted more successfully than others. +This is not an amalgamation we're considering, it's not a merger, it's an enormous undertaking. +But it's something we cannot afford not to be involved in. +We cannot afford to pussyfoot around with it, we cannot afford the time not to be on the move, on the move because that's the only way our members are gonna dictate what they want. +There will be a price to be paid, but it's not to be undertaken at any price. +There are many sacred cows with within this organization that must be preserved, principally our regional structure, our regional financial structure, er is one of the main things that we have to preserve. +My own personal opinion, regardless of what other people think about sectionalization, is that our sectional structure is something which was wi er built up, at times with difficulty and prices have been high and pay has been high. +But it's something that we need to preserve strongly. +The two organizations are s er so large that you can't join 'em together with two pieces of sticking plaster and three tin tacks. +There must be created a new and vibrant organization to meet the challenge of the twenty first century and beyond. +To our colleague from London, let me say I happen to be a boilermaker, not because I'm a dinosaur with me head in the past, but because that happens to be the occupation that I follow and that's what I am. +But let me say that in saying that I'm a boilermaker, I have always been, I am now, and I will always be proud to say that I'm a boilermaker. +But at the same time I'm proud to say that I'm a member of the T an er of the G M B +a member of the G M B. I'm proud to say that I'm a trade unionist, and I'm proud to say that I'm a Socialist, and if I'm gonna remain that, and if we're gonna carry that message forward, we've gotta be on the move, we've gotta do it, we've gotta carry it forward, we can't afford to muddle our way through. +We've gotta have a direction, and it's not about who gets the best jobs and who gets the best power positions, it's about dictating an agenda by the members for the members in the interests of our members, the T & g 's members and all trade unionists in this country. +I support the paper. +Northern Region? +President, Congress,, Northern Region, supporting the special motion. +And we will try to be sensible in this debate. +Mr President, since nineteen twenty four and the great amalgamation which formed the G M W, it has been the ambition of many within the G M W and the T & g to complete the task and bring together the tru two great general unions to form one super union. +Over the years many obstacles have arisen to halt these dreams, yet still for many the ultimate objective remains. +In recent years those ambitions of merging the T & g and the G M B have received fresh support. +The decline in membership, the economic recession, has damaged all the trade unions and has forced us all to examine all prejudices, to look above the sectional interests and wherever possible do all we can to protect our movement. +Congress, for all these reasons, the Northern Region support a Special Report. +However, at our pre-congress meeting, many reservations were expressed, the most important of which was concerned at the timing of any merger and about how the new union would be controlled. +Many asked, is it the right time for the G M B to even consider merging with the T & g , particularly given the fact that over the past thirteen years the T & g has lost over fifty percent of their membership and now stands in great financial crisis. +These issues are far- reaching and fundamental to our union. +They require urgent attention by the C E C and must be addressed before any talks are conducted with the T & g . +By supporting this Report the Northern Region does not support a merger at this time. +Instead, we are asking for a frank and open debate within our own union and on that basis, and on that basis alone, will the Northern Region support the Report. +South Western Region? +, South Western Region, speaking in support of the Special Statement. +In supporting this document I believe that we have to look realistically to the future and recognize that one general union would benefit trade union members in the U K far better than continuing to be in competition. +In recent years, cooperation, not competition, has proved that the G M B and T G W U can work together for the advantage of all our members. +We know that throughout the region there has been closer contact between our two unions, hosting joint conferences and campaigns with distinct advantages for all. +Conference, with unemployment on the increase and trade union membership on the decline, trade unions must move forward with wider appeal, with a new concept of unionism for the future. +But colleagues, although my region supports the document, with such an important issue, caution must be our by-word as some regions have had more success than others. +On this basis, the South Western Region supports the C E C Statement. +Lancashire? +Conference,, Lancashire Region. +President, Conference, Lancashire Region supports the document, but with reservations. +I'll talk about the reservations in a few minutes, but the Lancashire Region supports any amalgamation initiatives with any union which is here in the country. +Indeed, that's already our policy. +But, and it's but, supporting the document today does not give the C E C the green light to rush into any amalgamation with the Transport and General Union and carve up the G M B. +Now colleagues, I've been a member of the G M B for twenty five years. +I've been an activist for over twenty years in this organization. +I've been coming to conference for the last fifteen years to help build the grand union which we've got today and I'm not gonna sit back and watch this carved up, for nobody, for nobody. +A lot of talks, a lot of talks, a lot of consultation is the order of the day. +We don't want any hidden agendas. +The cards have gotta be firmly put on the table. +Everybody's gotta be kept informed of the developments as the merger and the talks start to unfold. +I'm gonna come back to the reservations, because if this amalgamation with the Transport and General Workers goes through, there's gonna be the inevitable casualties. +Yes, casualties within this organization, and nobody in this hall today can escape the possibility of the knife. +Long time officials, lay officials, staff at the organization, you might as well face up to the fact colleagues, a lot of you will have to go. +There's gonna be mass redundancies within the organization, mass redundances, from the shop stewards through to the general sect. +Regional +regional offices, regional offices is gonna close. +There's only gonna be the need for one hea one one head office. +We're gonna have a surplus of national officers. +Some people say we've got them now. +No no, just behave yourself. +We're gonna have a surplus of organizers and, dare I say it, one of the General Secretaries is gonna be made redundant. +Unless we take the cuts on board, it's gonna be a waste of time discussing the possibilities of the amalgamations in the first place. +Cuts are gonna have to be made. +And I want to remind you of the history of when amalgamations take place, because a number of people have touched on that very point this morning. +The larger union swallows up the smaller union, and let's get it straight, the T & g are not taking the G M B over. +We're talking about an amalgamation. +Yes, look at a possible amalgamation, recognize the many difficulties which lie ahead, but remember also that the members and the activists within the G M B need to be kept fully informed of what the C E C are doing. +I don't want to listen to any more of the media speculation telling me what's happening to our union. +We have got to get involved. +To finalize, colleagues, you've read the book, now you can see the vision. +The invasion of the body-snatchers. +The D an the T & g and the G M B. +Yorkshire Region? +President, Congress, colleagues. +Thanks , the bugger's pinched part of me speech. +This Report highlights some of the changes that trade unions have already experienced over the recent years in attempts to explore a new style of trade unionism that is in tune with the needs of working people. +A new style that will allow us to reach the year two thousand with a structure that is suitable for th a new century. +The document details recent experiences of closer contact with the T & g . +It refers to exploring the scope for reducing, or eliminating, duplication of efforts and resources. +This exploration of methods aimed at reducing expenditure, while at the same time improving our service, must be continued. +And if these explorations conclusively point to an amalgamation with the T & g or any other union, then so be it. +But, before we consider any amalgamation with the T & g , we must ensure that our own house is in order. +We must ensure that we know in which direction we are going. +We must decide how the G M B will cope with dramatic changes that will have, and will take place, in the workplaces that we represent. +We must examine in fine detail our own structure. +How we re serve our members, communicate with our members and ask ourselves the question, do we give them what they want? +Have we coped with the very different needs demanded in small groupings of workers based in small shops, or residential homes, or private sports centres, small offices or even individuals working on their own? +Our traditional recruitment base, large factories, are becoming a thing of the past. +Fourteen years of Tory rule has seen to that. +They have butchered our manufacturing base. +To attract this new category of workers to the G M B our own of servin servicing, will have to change. +Quite possibly, many of these people will not be represented at their workplace by a shop steward or lay representative. +They will need advice direct from the nearest G M B office. +The advice that they need will in all probability be a different nature to the normal required in large workplaces. +To make the G M B relevant advice is going to have to be available over the telephone. +With the advances in information technology, answers to many questions could be delivered in minutes, not just on industrial issues, like how cold does it have to be before we stop work, or how heavy a load should I lift, but other questions not related to work that we have not always answered in the past. +Questions related to more social issues, income tax, social security etcetera, could be answered using this system. +G M B employees would need training enabling them to become experts in this field. +Perhaps eventually small drop-in offices would be open in large towns or cities, offering instant face to face access. +Of course, these activities would run parallel to our existing system of servicing our more traditional workforce. +I note that the C E C proposes to report back in nineteen ninety four G M B Congress with an indication of what form the new union resulting from any such amalgamation might take. +The Report will hopefully address many of these issues that I have raised. +Proposed changes to the way in which we have traditionally served our members. +Adapting to new times, releasing new concepts. +This enables the G M B to say without fear of contradiction to any new partner, our house is in order, our structures are in place. +This is the way forward. +Colleagues, I look forward to the Report to Congress in nineteen ninety four. +Thank you. +Birmingham Region? +Colleagues,, Birmingham and West Midland Region. +The Birmingham Region fully supports the C E C document and the amalgamation with the T & g , or any other trade union that will fit in and complement our organization. +It would be difficult indeed to argue against the T & g being allowed to merge into the G M B. This organization represents peoples who work in the same type of companies, very often within the same workplaces that we work. +The saving in officer time, shop steward time, and the fact that we fight one another for the same people to join our organization, would be savings great indeed. +The members who've joined the G M B over the past, joined the G M B because in their opinion this was the best trade union in the U K and we are very very proud of our heritage. +And what we wanna say to the General Secretary and the C E C that during the talks that there is one thing which must be maintained, and that is the structure of the G M B. The T & g comes to join us on our terms. +And if you thought you had a fight last year over bi-annual congresses, you wait until you try and do anything that will affect our structure in the future. +I'll keep this brief. +I think I've made the relevant points that others may have missed. +Most of what I wanted to say has already been said. +The Birmingham Region supports. +Ask the General Secretary to respond, C=conference +, General Secretary, responding on behalf of the C E C. Er, perhaps just the two motions first. +Two five five, the reason why the Executive asked for withdrawal was because it's moving us a bit too fast along this track, and it's moving us in a particular direction before we've had the time to think about whether that's the right direction to go. +It may be that a federated structure is either the best long-term, or the best short-term, structure. +But we haven't got there yet, and to give the answer before we've really considered the question is probably the wrong way round. +We're not diving into anything, in fact all we're asking really is inviting you to agree that the C E C might go for a collective paddle with the T & g to see the temperature of the water. +So I hope, in my remarks, and I hope in the general tone of the debate, there's enough to reassure London Region that we need to move forward at a careful pace. +We'll certainly ensure that the prospect and possibility of a federated structure is one the matters which is considered by the C E C during the next few months, and will form part of the Report that comes back to Congress next year. +Er, the other motion is of course pointing to so many of the changes that are taking place in our industrial society which prompt us into building a new union. +I hope that two two eight can be referred so that that discussion can be taken into account in determining the needs of members in the new world, and therefore the design of the new union. +Now, on the Report itself, and just a few quick points. +The idea of course the vision is to create a better union, not one that is exactly like us because er, difficult for me to say so, but we have got the occasional fault here and there. +Not one which is exactly like the T & g . +I won't even comment on their faults because er it might be reported, but something which is better than either. +So how do we do it? +Well, if we're going to move forward to that sort of union, there are really only three unions in this country that can be used as the base for that new structure, that new organization. +G M B is one, T & g 's another and there's a third which I'm not going to name, but most of you can probably guess. +If they want to join us in this enterprise, so much the better. +It would make a better spread across the number of industries and services and if, if they join us, it would help us all considerably. +Several delegates have talked about care. +That's absolutely right and that's why the caution is there in the statement. +The danger with all mergers is that two and two ends up by equalling three. +The new union is less than the sum of the other two. +Our task is to try and make sure that two and two come out at five and the members get a better deal from the new union than they got from either of the amalgamating unions. +Timescale. +Well, there've been some silly things said about this in the Press, and one or two by our colleagues elsewhere. +This is not an enterprise that can be completed in a few months. +If we were just gonna bolt together the two unions then that may be able to be done in a couple of years or so, but if we're trying to build something better, then we're talking about a project that takes place over several years. +And that's why it's important that there needs to be an open debate, both within the union, and there needs to be a proper flow of information from the Executive in these discussions to the branches and to the members to tell them what's going on. +But of course then we get to an almost impossible task. +I wish I had a pound for every time I have denied holding a meeting with the T & g . +Those meetings haven't taken place but of course no-one believes it because mis-information is much more exciting than the truth. +We will send regular reports. +We hope the branches and members w w will believe those reports because they will be the truth, and not some of the more highly coloured statements which I'm sure will be put around from time to time. +We're only suggesting a start on this project but the attitude of mind, our mind, in taking that particular step is important. +Several people have been er kind enough to remind me as General Secretary, and other people, that we're all expendable. +And so we are. +We've really gotta start this project by thinking what is in the interests of the members. +What is the best way forward for them. +trade unionism has been failing in this country for the last fourteen years. +There's no point in wrapping it up. +We've gotta change that failure round into success. +So the starting point is what is best for the members. +We'll come to the personalities and the positions later on along the track, but first of all it's got to be the members. +And there will be changes. +There must be changes. +But they will have to be the subject of consultation and debate and I guess that some of the debates will be really quite lively. +So the beginning an important project. +I hope that on the basis of the assurances given, two five five can be withdrawn. +I hope two two eight can be referred so that the content and discussion and the Report it asks for can be part of these discussions. +Support the Report and let's see if we can succeed in what must be the greatest enterprise in the trade union Movement since the nineteen twenties. +Thank you. +Thank you very much indeed . +Could London agree to the withdrawal of the two five five? +, London Region. +Listen carefully to what the delegates have said on the Report. +I note most have got gr some reservations, quite a lot of reservations o on the issue. +All I can say is when you read that document carefully it's an open cheque for the C E C. They can go and come back next year and give you a date for a merger. +says no, we're not gonna do that. +But still if you read that carefully it doesn't say he ca that they can't do it, the C E C. So I urge you to vote for the motion two five five. +C E C position is therefore asking Congress to oppose two five five. +All those in favour? +Against? +Two five five is lost. +Motion two two eight. +C E C are asking for reference. +Midland Region accept reference? +Thank you very much. +Does Conference accept reference? +Thank you. +Special Report. +All those in favour? +Against? +That's carried. +Thanks very much indeed colleagues. +We now turn to a number of motions on G M B services. +Motion two two seven, Shop Stewards. +Lancashire Region to move. +G M B Services, Northern Region to move. +Two three one Publicity, Liverpool Region to move. +Shop Stewards, Lancashire Region, motion two two seven +, Lancashire Region, moving motion two two seven. +, hang on a sec. +Colleagues, if you are moving out, move out very quietly please +Congress, if I asked the question, is there a shop steward in the house, I would've been confident to say yes, but they all seem to be leaving. +But I can safely say it today. +But if I was to ask the same question throughout industry today the answer would be very different. +A recent survey carried out by Labour Research shows that out of two thousand workplaces studied, there was a marked decline in unionization. +During the eighties the proportion of employees in union membership was down to forty eight percent in nineteen ninety, from fifty eight percent in nineteen ni eighty four. +This gloomy story is reflected in the disappearance of union representatives. +Our decline is widespread, affecting workplaces of all types. +What're we gonna do about it? +Well, brothers and sisters, I haven't got the answer. +But if this motion is successful and a working party is established, one of the conclusions that we might reach is that General Secretaries should keep their sticky fingers off shops steward's commissions. +I move. +The seconder? +, Lancashire Region, seconding motion two two seven. +Colleagues, I agree with everything just said. +But talk about incentives. +I believe the opposite is happening. +There is an attack on the benefits and commissions. +If some of this year's proposals are passed our members will receive less next year than they get now. +Three weeks ago I was invited down to a meeting of water workers. +They were just dropped out of a union, it just happens the one we're quite friendly with at the moment. +They were dissatisfied with the service and the benefits provided. +I was asked, if we join your union, what will we get? +I went on that morning to sell this union the benefits we provide. +I recruited twenty one members that morning, a few more to come I hope. +I tell you, colleagues, am I glad that meeting was before this Congress. +Now, now, if I can hold on to these members depends on benefits being maintained, not decreased, that's not an incentive. +Commissions, Jesus, colleagues, can you imagine two branch secretaries eh? +One on ten percent, one on five, I think I know who's gonna be happy. +Eh, I don't know who comes up with these ideas, I don't honest. +But if that's an incentive they're not living in the real world. +I often wonder if the people who come up with these proposals have any experience in recruitment. +I doubt it, eh? +I tell you what might be the answer, colleagues, a fortnight's compulsory re recruitment campaign for these people. +Half five in a morning, with the rain going down the back of your bleeding neck, the police set upon you by the owner and the manager, eh, that'd liven 'em up. +Eh? +Colleagues, they wouldn't be too keen on cutting commissions then. +Eh, I don't doubt. +Now, now sorry, I've gotta laugh at that one myself. +Now, now, I know they're trying to save, I know they're trying to save money. +Yeah, we know that. +Problem is, we're trying to save this union. +That's the difference. +And I think they should have a vested interest in that. +I really do. +Because if we, we, the rank and file don't succeed, we're all gonna go down the tube together. +Support motion two two seven. +Thanks . +Motion two two nine, G M B Services, Northern Region to move +President, Congress,, Northern Region, moving motion two two nine. +I think our union has changed dramatically over the last few years, not to the point that our great history has been lost, but we have adapted to the world in which we live. +Our education department has undergone a review which in return has produced quality materials and in turn quality stewards which meet the needs of all members. +The health and safety department now known as the health and safety and environment department, is envied by other unions, and has clearly responded to its own review. +Now Congress, I believe that we must adapt the considerable changes which have taken place in the last few years of Tory terrorism. +Our organization is crying out for high quality information to fulfil the demands made upon both full- time and lay officials. +This information is increasingly becoming of local nature, C C T and L M S make it difficult for our national research department to deal with local issues. +At this point, Congress, I should add that this motion is not an attack on our research department. +More cries for devolution. +N H S, Local Authorities, multi-nationals, are all going down the road local bargaining. +And what happens from district to district, region to region, is sometimes as far apart as John Major and the British people. +We know the reason local bargaining is being encouraged, it's to lower wages and conditions and give rich financial benefits to the few. +There is a rule for a central research point but again colleagues, more is needed in the regions. +Our union has been, without doubt, the shining light in terms of what we offer to members. +And we must continue to improve and better the information that is provided. +The easiest way is to channel resources into the regions. +A review by the C E C, in my opinion, would show that the agenda for the future will be local. +Bargaining will be local, and research, whatever nature or subject, will have to be local to support our activists and officials. +We can boast that changes not made were not necessary but without looking ahead and of course responding, we will leave our organization floundering and will lose out locally to others. +Please support this motion. +Seconder for two two nine? +President, Congress,, Northern Region, seconding motion two two nine. +Colleagues, the service sub-committee of the C E C has already initiated reviews of departments which offer support to national, regional and lay officials. +The outcome of the reviews have certainly taken into account the needs of the membership which of course means a better organization. +I feel the time is now right to respond to local bargaining initiatives, C C T and L M S, with a review of how the research department could best provide their services to the people at the sharp end. +There is a need, more than ever, with many changes that are taking place, for information to be provided quickly and effectively, delivering to the point and value to our members. +Congress, I therefore ask the C E C to immediately instigate a comprehensive review of the research department which, with doubt, without doubt has supplied excellent information in the past, but I feel should be given the opportunity to fulfil and identify local needs of regions. +Our union, more than ever, needs a quick response service and hopefully this will be on the line if the review begins. +Please support this motion. +I move. +Motion two three one, Publicity, Liverpool Region? +President, Congress,, Liverpool, North Wales and Irish Region. +Colleagues, in moving this motion I am seeking the C E C to give this union the credit it deserves when achieving victory for its members throughout with a wider publicity campaign through the media, although if is on the television again tonight I think he's gonna have a higher rating than Coronation Street this week. +Under the section that I am a member of, is the public sector, the largest section of the union. +We need bold headline posters in colour to identify what sections they represent so that we can give our members activist up to date information in advance of other comp competition and other unions. +Because of the competition we face from the new union, UNISON, we need application forms geared up to the particular industries that we require. +I move. +Two three one, seconded? +Seconded, two three one? +Did somebody say formally? +Thanks very much. +Colleagues, the C E C wish to put a speaker in in respect of motion two two nine, we're seeking reference, I call +I hope that wasn't an omen. +, Midland and East Coast Region speaking on behalf of the C E C. Congress, the C E C is asking you to support motions two two seven and two three one but refer motion two two nine. +On pages one 0 six and one 0 seven of the General Secretary's Report, reference is made to the C E C organization sub-committee reviewing the work of the research department. +This was done last year. +The research department has followed the lines set by that review. +It has shifted resources from routine servicing to policy development. +Investment has been made in online financial information services. +This has speeded up the flow of information on companies to the regions. +A great deal of progress has been made on equal rights. +Negotiators guides on disability and harassment have also been produced, as well as model agreements and other support services for officers. +These have become key areas of the department's work. +The department has directed much effort to European issues. +The G M B's European officer has contributed a lot here and at the cutting edge in Brussels. +It has been recognized that the European Directives are increasingly affecting what happens in the workplace. +Examples of this are these. +Acquired Rights Directive, the health and safety and the forty eight hour week. +Back on the home front, bargaining is shifting rapidly from the national arena to local level. +It is recognized that G M B's resources need to reflect this. +This especially applies to research services because they supply the raw material with which we work, the information needed by the union to enable it to respond to the challenges which arise day by day. +We must be constantly vigil and keep a sharp look out for new issues which need to be put on our agenda, so that we can keep pace with the changes that affect our members and organization. +The research department is the resource that is well placed to do this, as demonstrated by the examples of equal rights and training. +Similarly,ex the excellent output of the research department is essential to formulate effective responses to the ever more sophisticated management who constantly employ new techniques in human resource management and attacks on our members' pay and conditions. +Examples of this are of performance related pay +could you wind up please? +Yes, which has sometimes been a pre-cursor to de- recognition. +Therefore, the C E C is asking you to support motion two two seven, refer motion two two nine and support motion two three one. +Thank you. +Thanks very much. +Propose to take the vote colleagues, motion two two seven as being accepted. +All those in favour? +Against? +That's carried. +Reference is being sought on two two nine, Northern Region prepared to refer. +Agreed? +Conference accept that? +Thanks very much. +Motion two three one, Liverpool Region, the C E C are asking you to accept it. +All those in favour? +Against? +That's carried. +I now call motion forty six, rule twenty seven, Legal Assistance. +This is a C E C motion to be moved by +Morning Congress, er , er speaking on er Mm moving motion forty six on behalf of the Executive. +Under er rule twenty seven, the er Central Executive Council authorizes regional secretaries to provide legal assistance. +Er, this usually consists of asking law firms who specialize in personal injury claims to represent our members in claiming compensation for occupational accidents and diseases. +As the General Secretary's Report indicates, last year members obtained about forty million pounds in compensation, almost all of it through our regional solicitors. +With the support of regional legal officers and a set of guidelines and codes of practice, we ask the solicitors to abide by regional secretaries ensuring that cases are pursued as forcefully as possible with the members interests uppermost at all stages. +However, regional secretaries, despite our many wonderful skills, cannot be litigation experts and run the cases. +We rely on the good advice of our solicitors who advise us on the appropriate action to take. +So, when a solicitor recommends that a writ is issued, we usually, almost invariably, authorize that step, provided it falls within the guidelines. +The same goes for medical reports and engineers' reports and so on. +And the same also applies when our solicitors report that, having done th bes very best they can, they cannot recommend that the union continues to finance the claim. +Try as we might, we cannot win every case. +With the best will in the world many cases have to be withdrawn or discontinued each year. +The question posed by motion forty six is this. +When a regional secretary, acting on the advice of the solicitor, indicates that a case cannot be won, and terminates legal assistance under rule twenty seven, should the member be able to appeal against that decision? +The C E C thinks not. +Decisions to terminate legal assistance under rule twenty seven are different from other decisions made within the union, because they are invariably made on the express written recommendation of a specialist in law. +Appeals against termination of legal assistance are unfair to regional committees, to the appeals committee of the C E C, and to the appeals tribunal. +None of these bodies, any more than a regional secretary, is an expert in personal injury litigation. +Yet, the appeal by definition, asks them to second guess +, could you wind up please? +the advice of a barrister. +They cannot do so and should not be asked to try. +And what is the regional committee being asked to do? +To refer the case back to the same solicitor who has reported that the case cannot now be won, or refer it to a different lawyer? +What happens if the new solicitor also recommends closure of the case? +Currently the member is able to appeal afresh. +This is not sensible. +President, Congress, the C E C does not lightly bring forward a motion which limits the right of appeal, but in these very special circumstances we feel it is both justified and necessary. +I move motion forty six. +Thanks very much . +Is the motion seconded? +Formally seconded. +Could you formally pen it? +Thank you. +Formally seconded. +The C E C are obviously asking you to support this colleagues. +All those in favour? +Against? +That's carried. +Colleagues, I'd now like to extend a welcome to . +is Director General of the Engineering Employers Federation. +Colleague, any more interruption you can go through that door. +Now, I'm telling you. +Except for a three year secondment to the Ministry of Defence, most of his career has been spent in the motor industry. +has been Managing Director of world-wide sales for Land Rover and Director of European group, he was also a main Board Director with Rover. +joined the E E F in July nineteen ninety two, since when he had led the call for an industrial policy in Britain. +Invite to address Conference. +President, ladies and gentlemen. +President, thank you for that welcome. +I must confess I was surprised, curious and highly delighted when er you invited me to speak to you here today and er I'm very and sincerely pleased that you did. +I am glad to be here. +Nevertheless, I do feel a bit like Zsa Zsa Gabor's fifth, or was it sixth, husband on their wedding night. +I'm er I'm pretty clear what's expected of me but not so certain that I know how to make it sufficiently interesting to achieve your undivided attention. +Now, no doubt your predecessors, and certainly mine, would be astonished to know how we can meet in this way, but I wonder whether they'd approve? +My guess is that they might not. +Indeed, I'm not er sure that there aren't still members of both our organizations who believe that right now each of us is supping with the devil. +I don't see it that way at all but if they're right er I'd defend your invitation and my acceptance by quoting the old idiom, better the devil you know. +You must be the judges of whether or not I'm the devil or at least his representative, but I hope you don't see me that way. +If you do, let me strike a deal with you straight away. +I won't judge you by your past if you don't judge me by mine. +It's time to take off the dinosaur suits and start talking real business. +I'm here because I believe that we share many objectives and because I know that there's more that unites us than divides us. +I'm sure that when you adopted your working together slogan you were not thinking that it included employers. +But why shouldn't it? +Surely we all want to achieve the same objectives, an end to recession, low unemployment, a prosperous and fair economy, good education, training and health care. +In short, a stable and caring society in which everyone can live in reasonable comfort and security and to which everyone contributes according to their means. +Now I'm not so stupid to believe that we'll always necessarily agree on how those objectives should be met. +But we should see where the common ground lies and, having identified it, we should build there, and if we fail to do this, we'll be failing both our groups of members. +Failing future generations and failing U K P L C. And I'm sure you don't want to leave that legacy any more than I do. +In this short talk, I propose to concentrate just on two things. +I'd like to talk about the needs for and the potential benefits of an industrial strategy and then I'd like to tell you how the employers view trades unions today. +First, industrial strategy. +This is a topic which the E E F has been promoting hard since last October. +We've been doing so because we believe that without an industrial strategy U K living standards and status will sink quite quickly to those of a Third World economy. +We don't want that and I'm sure you don't want it either. +For U K P L C to succeed in the years ahead, we simply have to agree objectives, navigate by the same map, and aim at the same goals. +Now, it's mot going to be easy, not least because it will require the politicians to be more cooperative and less combative. +It's simply not good enough for them to say, as they have for the last forty five years, elect us, we'll change everything and then things will be alright. +We need long- term industrial policies that survive general elections and changes of government. +How else will we ever have sustainable strategies for energy, for transport, or telecommunications. +Had we defined a robust industrial strategy for the U K in the nineteen seventies, would we be looking back now on twenty years of consistent industrial decline? +Had we a powerful industrial policy in the nineteen eighties, would we be looking back now at a crisis of industrial investment in the nineteen nineties? +If the U K is to be globally competitive in the future, we simply cannot afford to perpetuate such mistakes. +Now the chief purpose of an industrial strategy is to develop strategic thinking about our national industrial affairs and provide a common background against which the key decisions determining that future can be made. +Without the basic information and understanding, market forces cannot be expected to function as they were intended. +Now we at the E E F define an industrial policy as the development of a common understanding about the role of industry and the economy, between industry, government, finance and education and about the direction of technological and industrial progress. +And by government I mean, not just the government of the day, but the opposition parties too. +And it's this common understanding that many of our competitor countries possess and which we so sadly lack. +Without it, the future of U K industry and of the economy as a whole, will be in danger. +Let's take a brutally honest look at our current position. +Our manufacturing base is in long-term decline, accelerated by the current recession. +Despite our success in improving productivity in the eighties, there's an urgent need to rebuild belief and confidence in U K industry. +We have a chronic trade deficit, high unemployment, and our productive capacity in manufacturing is simply too low. +Now, our pivotal problem is that our appetite to consume is about to exceed our total capacity to produce. +Despite the surge of investment in the late nineteen eighties, the long-term trend is towards investing an ever smaller proportion of what we earn. +Our statistics show that we consume all that we're capable of producing, yet we're investing less and less in new capacity to produce. +In nineteen seventy two our manufacturing sector accounted for thirty two percent of gross domestic product. +By nineteen ninety two, it had fallen to just about twenty percent. +And that matters because our existing capacity cannot maintain our national living standards and our balance of payments. +And for too long we've been misled into believing that manufacturing and industry had become unimportant. +In truth, our future competitiveness and prosperity depend more than ever before on technology and industry. +The potential for future economic growth depends partly on innovations in production technology, to reduce costs and, crucially, on innovative products which create new markets in themselves. +Innovative products are an essential part of the process of economic growth, providing new employment and not just in manufacturing. +We must not forget that most economic growth, even in service industries, originates from technological innovation in the manufacturing sector. +Service industries are rarely able to improve their productivity, service quality, or competitiveness by their own efforts alone. +They usually need new and improved or more affordable equipment and the future growth of service industries such as travel, broadcasting and entertainment, and increasingly in education and health care activities and environmental protection, will depend upon continued technical innovation. +Now many people seem to think that technology means machines and equipment, but machines and equipment and the software that run them are only the products of technology. +Technology is about the ability to produce goods and services competitively. +It's therefore about people, their skills, their knowledge and their organization for cooperative activity. +It takes time for industry to accumulate expertise, to build teams, and to establish a strong market position. +To achieve industrial competitiveness normally requires decades of persistent activity, not just a few years, but it can be thrown away very quickly and very easily. +Strategic vision and consistency of policies by firms, by their financial investors, and by government, are crucial, and this cannot be achieved without a coherent sustained industrial strategy. +The problem is the long-term industrial strategy for prosperity is not a glamorous thing. +A long-term industrial strategy does not produce profits tomorrow. +It will not win votes tomorrow. +At least that's what the politicians used to think. +Now I believe things are starting to change. +The bad news, on which I expect you'll agree with me, is that across all parties, the professional politicians have been letting us down for decades. +They really don't know much about industry. +They don't really care enough about industry, and they certainly don't understand that our timescales are quite different from theirs. +Industry certainly needs to be high on the political agenda but like Northern Ireland policy, the main parties must agree a mutual policy. +Industry is simply too important, with too many people's jobs depending on it, to be a party political punchball. +Let's build on the good news, that Heseltine and Cook understand the need for a national industrial strategy. +Let's get industry out of party politics and make it a truly national priority. +Wouldn't that really benefit your members and mine? +Wouldn't that begin to ensure that the U K will be th in the premier league in the twenty first century? +Now my second topic, how do employers view the trade unions today? +Surprisingly you may find, perhaps not so very differently from yourselves. +We've both had to cope with two recessions and undergo immense change in that process. +But it's because we accepted the challenge of change, even though we may not have liked everything that went with it, that we're here today. +Leaner, yes, but probably fitter too, and more competitive. +Now, trade unions have changed dramatically over the past ten years. +You've down-sized, restructured, looked at amalgamations and generally sought a new role, just like the E E F, just like industry. +A bonanza in fact for management consultants and accountants. +Er, speaking of accountants, I must tell you that one of the perks of my job is to be able to get out and about in the real world, to real companies, meeting real people. +And a couple of weeks ago I was at a chemical engineering company where the managing director told me that they were now using accountants for their safety experiments instead of rats. +Erm, you mi you might share my surprise when I heard that. +So I asked him whey on earth they were doing it and he said, well there are three very simple reasons. +First of all, there are far more accountants around now than there are rats and er we were having great difficulty in getting hold of the rats and I thought, well that sounds logical. +The second er reason which he gave me, of course I should have thought for myself, he said, but the accountants more accurately represented the human form than did the rats, so that was a clear one to him, but it was the third one that really floored me, when he told me that their staff had been getting really attached to the rats. +Now, er, now back to the main theme, which is that you've become more business-like, in every sense of the word. +You collaborate much more readily with industry. +We only have to look at some of the long-term deals, the single union deals and changed working practices to see that. +They haven't all, I accept, been greeted with standing ovations, and some unions have moved more quickly to accept change than others. +It's the same too with some employers. +But those changes were not met with the politicized and combative attitudes of the past. +That's because there's a new realism. +Unions have turned professional, serving their members' interests in the way that members, or perhaps I should call them customers, demand. +You now offer a lot more than just negotiations on pay. +You provide a wide range of personal services and you take a keen and active interest in important issues such as health and safety, child care, training, and the environment. +And we agree with you on many of them. +Many of the changes, sad but true, came about through recession, particularly the first one. +We lost a third of the workforce in my industry, mainly in unskilled and semi-skilled posts, many companies went bust and others were cut down in size dramatically. +But that recession also brought about the improvements in industrial relations which we see today. +The companies and the workforces that came out of it we were far leaner, more committed, and more aware of the need for change than their predecessors had ever been. +Managements took steps in a variety of forms to improve communications with employees. +And unions became less sensitive about companies communicating directly with employees. +Unions also started to accept the kind of deals that are commonplace today. +In short, we started to work together. +Now, the recession that we're emerging from right now, hopefully, has been quite different. +It hit sectors and people who largely escaped before, the skilled, the clerical workers, the managers and the professionals who've been badly mauled this time, and where last time around er the service sector was expanding to mop up some of those who'd lost their jobs in manufacturing, this time the service sector too has been in deep trouble. +Now, it always takes a crisis to bring people here talking to you today, and I'm very glad to be able to do so our people, and more so the craftsmen within that particular indu our people, and more so the craftsmen within that particular ind at their request. +And we're taking a lot more time talking to the Labour Party, and not only at their request again. +The big issue is rebuilding and expanding our manufacturing base to ensure that we remain a prosperous industrialized country. +But there's another big issue, one that unions and employers have got to tackle to clear the ground for greater cooperation between us, and that's the still passive acceptance of the them and us syndrome. +And yes, it's still there in places. +I'm not sure why, because without realizing it, we've something else very much in common. +We're all employees. +I'm an employee of the E E F in the same way that is an employee of G M B, in the same way that managers and staff are all employees of the companies they work for, in the same way that your rank and file members are all employees, in the same way that your full time officials are all employees. +When we come to think about it there are very few owner-occupiers around these days. +Now, if we can work together on solving this one, we'll find it much easier to work on some of the others. +And where we've got to work together right now is to ensure that the U K stays competitive. +Now, I know our views on this will differ somewhat, but even the European Commission has publicly expressed its concern just recently over the levels of unemployment across Europe and about the international competitiveness of European industry compared with the rest of the world. +And that's why the E E F, not alone, but together with our colleagues in engineering employers' organizations throughout Europe, German, the French, the Belgians, the Dutch, argued against the working time directive in its original form. +That draft er approved by the Social Affairs Council a week ago does not allow the flexibility for companies and their employees to determine working time arrangements at local plant level, but we do question the E E C's involvement in this area. +Working time, including overtime, should be decided by local voluntary agreement and I do emphasize the word voluntary. +President, one final point. +Remaining competitive in this world, particularly when so many countries are also in recession, means keeping a tight rein on costs. +I know that many of you and your colleagues have been under great pressure during our own recession to restrain wage claims and to accept deferred or even zero settlements. +But my message today is straightforward. +We've got to continue that restraint even as things start to get better, and that means restraints from the top to the bottom, from board room to shop floor. +The prize of long-term success is too precious to throw away for transient short-term benefit. +Mr President, at the beginning of my address I said that we would see where the common ground lies. +Let's find it and, better still, let's build on it. +Thank you for your attention and for the warmth of your welcome today. +thank you very much indeed for that er address. +Colleagues, can we now turn to recruitment, a number of motions, motion two three six, Recruitment, Birmingham Region to move, motion two three seven, Lancashire Region to move, composite four Recruitment for the Unemployed, Midland Region to move, motion two four two, Accrued Membership Rewards, Liverpool to move, motion two four three, Recruitment Procedure, Liverpool. +I call Birmingham Region to move two three six and again colleagues, if supporting speakers could come down to the front it will assist. +, Birmingham and West Midland Region, moving motion two three six on recruitment. +During the seventies unions were reporting record membership. +Indeed, our own region, Birmingham West Midland, had a membership in excess of one hundred thousand members. +In the seventies life was rosy for all trade unions and everyone within the organization felt secure. +Every cloud had a silver lining. +Nothing could go wrong and all unions, especially the G M B, had the Midas touch. +But in nineteen seventy nine things did go wrong. +Thatcherism was born and during the last decade there has been record redundancies and bankruptcies within the U K as a whole. +Unfortunately many were trade union members who lost their jobs and have not retained their union membership so have been lost to our organization. +We now find G M B offering nineteen seventy style benefits to a nineteen ninety style membership. +The effect on us that every year our General Secretary during the finance debate, asks Congress to approve increases in contributions. +This is a situation that cannot and must not continue. +It is a recipe for disaster. +So what can be done to redress the balance? +Two things. +One, retain the membership we have. +Two, recruit new members. +If the G M B could reg retain the unemployed and redundant, it would give a solid base on which to work. +It is no good signing up a new member and then losing two others. +That's one step forward, two steps back. +The result of that is crumbling foundations. +The way forward then is to recruit, and the importance of new members was never more critical than it is at this time. +Too many people still see union membership as belonging to a militant organization. +Old images die hard. +People still see unions as wage negotiators and nothing else. +So, how does the G M B best get over the message to the mem non- members because unions have progressed a long way since our founder, Will Thorne, collected subs in a bucket. +The need to sell our organization and the services and expertise that can be offered, such as legal advice and representation, advice on social security benefits, education. +We have our own colleges and run courses on all kinds of subjects. +Health and safety, where information on this wide ranging subject is available, our own department skilled in occupational pensions, advice on personal pensions through our own bank, Unity Trust. +In fact, expertise in a whole range of subjects too numerous to mention. +President, in this motion I have tried to outline things that could be important and useful in recruiting drive. +But it mustn't just be left to the activists to recruit. +Our national office must help by better media coverage, bringing to non- members attention what we have to offer and how useful it is to belong to a trade union. +If the right approach is used in a positive way, success will follow. +President, colleagues, I move. +Is there a seconder? +Formally seconded, thanks very much. +Motion two three seven, Lancashire Region +President, Colleagues,, Lancashire Region, moving motion two three seven. +The subject of proper union organization in the taxi trade is very important to our branch and, as I'm sure you will appreciate, recruitment is difficult when little G M B recruitment literature appertains to the taxi trade. +Existing recruitment literature deals with employed persons within the workplace and the values of union organization when negotiating with the employer for proper wages, workers' rights and benefits. +None of the above appertain to the taxi trade as the trade is predominantly self-employed. +There are three hundred and sixty seven local authorities in England and Wales who are authorized to licence and administer the taxi trade in their respective areas. +Although these authorities work within the framework of central government legislation, their interpretation of this legislation is not always correct and is often reckless and to the detriment of the trade, its members' income and working conditions. +The treatment that is received from councils by the trade is shoddy and inconsiderate and often disrespectful and contemptuous. +The taxi trade is desperately in need of organization in order to improve conditions for the workers employed therein, and therefore national recruitment is necessary in order to begin that organization. +Recruitment literature needs to convince the taxi trade that proper organization can, and will, improve their working conditions, and that by being members of a recognized trade union who have expertise in dealing with local authorities, the trade will benefit. +Recruitment will ideally contain enough information to convince the taxi trade of the benefits of strong membership when dealing with representation at local level, and long-term advantages of being a member of the G M B when dealing with national issues. +Working conditions of the taxi driver are extremely poor and could be likened to Victorian times, hours worked are ra rarely less than sixty per week, there is no holiday pay, no pension rights, no sick pay, and no say in which way the trade is administered by local authorities. +How many in the G M B are working under similar conditions? +I guess not many that are sat in this room. +So you can see the need for proper organization and the need for increased support from the union? +We must get the trade organized and on the way to improved working conditions. +However, before these aims can be achieved, we first of all have to recruit and this, as I said before, cannot be done without literature required. +If passed, this move will be the first step on the way to mass recruitment and organization within the trade. +As we have heard earlier on this week in the General Secretary's Report on the financial position of the union, the money generated by this recruitment in the taxi trade will, I am sure, be greatly received. +I urge Conference to support this motion. +Thank you very much. +Thanks . +Is there a seconder? +Formally seconded, thanks very much. +Composite four, Recruitment of the Unemployed, Midland Region to sec er move and second. +Is it gonna be formally seconded? +President, Congress,, Midlands and East Coast Region, moving composite motion four. +Colleagues, it is with a mixture of sadness, disappointment and disbelief that this motion is required to be brought before Congress today. +The wrong that unemployed people are not allowed to join this great union is a wrong that must be righted today. +There can be fewer more devastating experiences in life than to be thrust from a situation of regular employment with all the stature that this entails, to becoming an enforced member of society's underclass, the unemployed the situation with a total lack of dignity, ask anyone who tries to claim benefits, the situation with a loss of social standing and frustration at unachievable ambitions. +We hope that sooner or later the philosophy that classes people as mere units of labour will be consigned to the dustbin of history which it deserves. +Unfettered competition of dog eat dog policies must surely give way to positive employment policies and achieve what desired, a society set free from idleness. +But what of today? +Where can a person turn to for advice, support and encouragement? +To its shame, not certainly at the moment, to the G M B. We don't want you. +No job, no membership. +That is the message. +Politically we cannot allow this situation to exist any longer. +Imagine the situation on the floor of the House of Commons. +The Labour Party, in a rare attack on unemployment through John Smith, is confronted by the usual stereotype smart arse Tory Minister. +His reply, but Mr Smith, even your own union does not even allow the unemployed to join. +Where is the compassion? +Where is the concern? +What embarrassment. +I understand that the C E C are asking for reference of this composite. +I hope that they reach a decision sooner than later, a decision to allow the most needy members of our society to join us. +Finally, you will note that the motion provides that membership at the reduced rate will not be a fiscal drag on the union. +I move. +Whilst the seconder is coming to the rostrum colleagues, perhaps I could advise Conference of what the position is at the moment concerning the programme. +We're certainly going to overrun again at lunchtime today because I do want to get Section Secretary's Report in, and the, certainly the special motion on Swan Hunter Ship Building Limited, so I will take the remainder of the recruitment motions, Report and certainly the special motion. +President, Congress,, Midlands and East Region, seconding composite motion four. +I recognize that it represents a major change in policy to even consider the idea of recruiting the unemployed, but I understand the C E C for looking for referral and we will be happy with that this year. +What prompted the submission of thi the motion is the growing feeling of disaffection and desertion among the unemployed, particularly the union unemployed in this country, who many never have had a job. +Once the labour movement offered hope and support to these people. +They now have no ch no voice, there is only one way to counter this. +We, the G M B, have got to offer them that support. +The long-term consequences of the current do-nothing policy are easy to predict. +We'll have ha we will have been an irrel irrelevant to them for so long that when they do find another job or even a first job, then we will have a major task to convince them of the value of trade union membership. +It is in our own interests to create a profile amongst the unemployed. +Think about it. +An unemployed member now could be a full member in the near future, possibly in firms where we have previously had no members. +There is another dimension to this motion that needs to be considered. +If we continue to ignore these people, especially the young, we may be fighting them in the near fu future as they are actively being targeted by the far right British National Party and other fascist organizations that are using this sense of desertion. +We will have to offer an alternative to the crap that they are peddling. +We have to offer support and, above all, we have to offer hope. +Fascism does not begin with the concentrations camps, that's where it ends. +It begins in social conditions exactly like those in Britain now. +Let's ha let's offer the unemployed an alternative. +Please consider the implications of not acting on the motion very carefully. +Thank you. +Motion two four two Liverpool Region. +Formally moved. +Is it formally seconded? +Formally referred? +Motion two four three Liverpool Region? +, Liverpool, North Wales and Irish Region. +President, Congress, the ex er we believe the Executive are accepting motion two four three, but we believe it should be aired at Congress today. +Surely it is better that new members feel that they are members of an organization which deals with them in a more personal basis and are not just another number. +Each member of our union is an individual and deserves the recognition of their status as an equal partner in our great union, both for their own self-esteem and as means of demonstrating our respect and encouragement for that person to play their role in the affairs of the union. +With the establishing of sections, it is vital that the members no the member knows what avenues are open to them and what facilities and rights they have, and how to utilize them and contribute to the running of the union. +With the facility of computers it is possible, as shown by other unions as well as forward-looking branches of our own, to communicate with members on a personal basis. +This approach is never more important than when a person first joins any organization. +You only have to have w you only have one opportunity to make a first impression er make a first impression. +So why not do it then? +Given that the member will be sent their membership card, it would seem a small step away to actually send them a letter addressed to them personally welcoming them to the union and advise them at the very least on the basic facilities and benefits, plus other important information, and signed by the Regional Secretary, if not by the General Secretary. +To inform them of who to contact if they have a problem plus benefits, discounts etcet etcetera, with particular emphasis on accrual benefits that may be lost if membership lapses, and the possible mention of loyalty benefits that may assist them in helping to recruit and retain other members. +With the system correctly set up, the whole process can be completely, completed automatically by the use of technology and it could be set up speedily upon receipt of a membership application. +Surely a massive aid to recruitment and retention. +My region asks you to support motion two four three. +Thanks very much . +Is two four three seconded? +Formally seconded. +Thanks very much. +The C E C wish to put a speaker into the debate. +I call +President, Congress,, Lancashire Region, speaking on behalf of the C E C. Congress, the C E C are asking you to support motion two three six, support motion two three seven, seek a referral of composite four, referral of motion two four two, and ask you to support two four three. +Colleagues, motion two three seven calls for the union to recruit within the licensed taxi trade. +But whilst there's clearly a high degree of non-unionized labour in the trade, the union needs to assess the potential benefits of committing resources in this area, given the transient, often temporary nature, of the workforce. +The C E C are to seek a referral of composite four. +We already reviewed our position on the recruitment of unemployed people as outlined in a new concept of trade unionism, prepared and, specially prepared, for this Congress. +We do not wish to pre- judge this review and therefore ask for the composite to be referred. +We also ask that motion two four two be referred. +The motion contains several interesting ideas which the C E C would wish to examine in its review. +Therefore, to summarize Congress, the C E C are asking you to support motions two three six and two three seven, seek referral of composite four and motion two four two for the reasons outlined. +And finally ask you to support motion two four three. +Thank you . +Thanks very much . +Propose to take the vote Conference of motion two three six. +As has indicated, we are seeking acceptance. +All those in favour? +Against? +That's carried. +Two three seven is accepted with a statement. +All those in favour? +Against? +That's carried. +Composite motion four er reference is being sought. +Does the Midland Region agree? +Agreed. +Conference accept that? +Thanks very much. +Motion two four two. +Reference is being sought. +Does the Liverpool Region agree? +Agreed. +Thanks very much lads. +Conference accept that? +Motion two four three. +You're being recommended to accept. +All those in favour? +Against? +That's carried + +Your eagle eyes will have noticed that there is someone sitting in this room with a tape recorder, and erm, it's it's, should be quite interesting for you to know what he is doing. +His name's Jim. +And he's +Hello Jim. +Alright. +being friendly. +and he is, he is recording you, erm, +He's recording you because there is a project under way which is known as the British National Corpus. +Which may say, seem to you, something to do with dead bodies, but it's not. +Erm, but it is a body, it's corpus as in body and and what the British National Corpus is doing, is putting together a massive amount of spoken English, erm, from all sorts of different contexts, and one of the contexts which they want spoken English from is an educational context, and so they are having to record you people, as they've been recording some other people erm, in other educational institutions around the country and so on. +The idea is, is not to make any judgements about you people, for instance, the whole thing is totally anonymous but it's to hear the state of the language as it is, I I assume, at the moment, and what's going to happen is, they're collecting a massive quantity of erm, of words. +They are transcribing it all, it runs into millions, but I can never remember how many millions. +They're transcribing it all, there are people going to transcribe all of this, write it all out, attach grammatical tags to us, and this body of work is going to be,t available to students of language, and so on. +So erm, you are not to be, in any way, I mean, I'm going to talk at you anyway, most of the afternoon unfortunately, but I do want you to respond. +But don't be inhibited by, and don't perform for, the microphone that's there, because that's that's not +so just forget it's there. +What it's about. +What? +Just totally forget it's there, right? +Yes. +Yes. +But that doesn't mean turn on a display of the kind of language that you wouldn't normally use +Mm. +when you're, forgetting it's there. +Yes. +Right, what I want to work on today, is and 's reminded me, that incidentally that that essay which you're due to write in class on the Monday we come back after half term, there isn't a Monday we come back after half term. +Brilliant. +Students aren't in on that Monday. +So it will have to be in for Thursday of that week, so you've got another couple of days in that first week back. +Right, I want to pick up on I've started looking at your tests, the history of language ones and I've actually marked only the section where you actually re-wrote the er, early modern English extract, and I want to pick up on that instantly, and talk about that and the ways you you, the way you can go around, no I'm not gonna give you that. +The way you can treat this task. +The editorial task, I might tell you, is half of one of your exam papers. +That is it's worth half the marks on one of your three papers. +So it is worth one sixth of your overall mark for this subject. +Is the way you go about a task exactly the same as that one I gave you the other day. +But it won't necessarily be, erm,an a some language taken from a historical period. +There have been other examples used, though not many that aren't historical, but there have been, for instance, there was an account of a road accident, I'll give most of these to you as exercises. +An account of a road accident written by someone who's learning English, and had a very limited vocabulary on it. +Erm, so the editorial task each each time is exactly the same, you had to rewrite the extract in modern standard English, and then comment on any differences, and explain why those differences occurred, but they are quite often, erm, eighteenth or nineteenth century extracts from books, descriptions of things, erm, dialect, descriptions of of events, and things like that, and last year's one, on, the one of last year's paper was er, a middle English one. +It was a letter written by er erm, a sixteenth century woman to her husband, and again it had commenting on the language used. +So it's it's vital that you get this exercise right and it, and you mustn't just think of it as part of the study of History of Language, it's not, it's, it's a er a definite part of your course. +Which will be coming up whatever form of language is used. +I will give you this to look at. +Now the major problem that came up the other day was that, I thought I had given you a very easy extract to translate into modern English, and it turned out not to be such an easy extract, obviously. +Erm, it wasn't +the first sentence didn't give you any problems whatsoever, er, well, very few people, but the problems came after that. +You will need some paper. +At the bottom of the page I had suggested how you should go about this exercise throw paper around the floor, that's all the paper there is here, so. +okay, don't take too much, and that is to first make a literal translation and then, to try and put it into idiomatic English. +Now if you don't know these terms, I'm sure you have come across them really +Literal. +What, well, well you define for me, what's a literal translation? +Word for word. +Word for word. +Yes. +Why might that not work as a, as a idiomatic translation. +What does idiomatic mean? +Making sense +Ideally +Making sense in sentence +Idiomatic means more than just making sense in English. +Correct word order. +grammatic use of +Mm, grammatic yes. +It also means using the kinds of erm, vocabulary and phraseology which are normally used. +It in in in every day usage. +Right so, a literal translation might turn out to be very stiff and stilted, and not the way most people would use language. +So, the there there is a distinction in terms there, you've got to do a literal translation first. +Because if you don't, if don't do a word by word translation, as some of you did, you, you may miss the meaning of certain words, and that might totally alter your perception of what's being said, and then what you should,wh when you've done a literal translation, you will have a very stiff erm,u unusual version of it, written in modern English vocabulary but you'll find that word ordering and things like that won't be appropriate, and sometimes the vocabulary aren't the kind of words that would normally be used now. +Therefore you will need to to rewrite that in a way which mean something to modern erm, readers. +So, can we just look at the extract that was given, what language would it have been translated from, incidentally? +Old English. +Middle English. +Early modern. +Use your brain, look at, look at what the extract is drawn from. +Something called De Proprietibus Rerum Bartolomeus Anglicus. +Latin. +From Latin, yes. +Erm, so it's it's in itself is translation into English of some earlier writing. +But the important thing as far as we were concerned, as is that the translation was done by John de Trevisa in thirteen ninety-eight, and some of you like Sam, were able to quote the middle English period and place thirteen ninety-eight towards the end of the middle English period, it's really on the verge of early modern English. +Other people, for who, anything which isn't modern, is old English, claimed that it was old English. +No, nobody in this room did. +Okay, word for word. +Give me modern words through the first line, please, Darren. +Among all flowers er, of the world, the flower of the rose is erm +Try and say it. +Which one. +Say that next word. +Finish the sentence. +The flower of the rose is +Right. +And +And what? +Beareth. +Beareth, yeah. +Ye prize. +Ye prize. +Yes, so any words here that that look unpronounceable, turn out when you say them, to be modern, to be exactly the same as modern words, except that of course, you don't have an f ending, as you know. +Th What's happened is that this spelling,th this reversal of spelling has occurred in English, as some of you obviously don't seem to know and your modern English versions you speak used it. +Erm, and beareth, there, what does beareth mean? +Amelia? +To bear something, it beareth the prize. +The rose beareth the prize. +Who knows that to bear means? +Shows. +Mm. +Shows. +No, that's that's bare as in B A R E I suppose. +exhibitionism. +Oh, it has. +No, it hasn't. +Holds +Mm, yeah al almost holds so it's obviously a word which has now become erm, obsolete for you people. +To bear something, means to to carry it. +Yeah, did you? +Well you didn't say it very loudly I don't know, interesting. +Okay, the next sentence, erm, Tanya translate. +Erm, I just read it or +Yeah,, try try and erm, put it into literal translation, to modern English. +Erm,. +Erm, through its virtues and sweet smell. +No, no, sorry. +Do it word for word. +We'll do that later. +Oh, erm, because of virtues and sweet smelling savour. +Right, and by cause I think, by cause is is is literally what's said there, but of course, yes that that we now read that as because. +Virtues, and sweet, sweeter savour. +Now again, is the word savour lost? +What's savour refer to? +To +If something's savoury, what sense are you, are you using it. +taste. +Taste, yeah. +Savour literally means taste. +Biscuits are savoury. +So are crisps. +Indeed, yes. +So it literally means taste in this case. +Virtues, I mean you know what virtues are, although again people try to smell it, smell it, spell it that way. +It's actually is spelt in modern English with an i, and virtue in this sense, in what what sense would it mean. +It's the cause, ah, sorry, it's the cause, it's the rose has virtues. +What sense of the word virtue are we er using this, we're not saying it's virtuous and it behaves well. +What are we saying? +That it's good +Good, goodness, yeah, beneficial, qualities. +Savour erm, the problem, why, why, I don't think any of you grasped the fact that we're talking there about savour, is that erm, you probably don't realise that historically, the rose was much eaten. +Ro rose petals erm, were eaten, in fact, there was a thriving erm, industry near Paris for drying rose petals which were used in medicine, and also were used erm, to crystallise and to they were put in cakes and things like that. +And in fact, have you ever eaten Turkish Delight? +Mm. +Yes. +That the the flavour in Turkish Delight is rose water, that's that's actual essence of rose petals. +And rose water, and rose was used a lot in cooking er, until, until quite recently, and it can still be. +Right the next sentence, erm Zakhia? +Yes. +Do a literal +A literal? +Yeah. +Full by fairness, they feed the sight and place the smell by odour the touch by soft handling. +Okay, go back on that. +Place is the interesting one there. +Say the word. +Placeth. +Plaseth, plaseth, by fairness they feed the sight and plaseth the smell. +Plaseth the smell. +Plaseth. +Place this place. +You're obviously not going to get it, are you, it's another vowel change. +Erm +It's, it's a yeah, it's a vowel, it's a vowel change and it's simply please, pleaseth. +They please, I thought in context you would have got that. +A fairness they feed the sight, and pleaseth the smell by odour. +Mm. +Like their odour pleases the the sense of smell. +No? +The touch by soft handling. +Then I, I think that the next sentence is actually the hardest one in literal terms, but, word for word is easy enough. +Erm, Sam, could you try that, the last sentence. +What do I have to do, just say it +Say it in in modern English, word for word. +And, would be it's supposed to withstand. +Withstand, yeah. +And, +and remember I gave you this word, that was suc succours +Succours. +Succours. +virtues against many illnesses fr and evils. +Right. +Against many, yes said illnesses and evils. +So in literal terms you have, you've given me, among all flowers of the world, the flower of the rose is chief and beareth the prize, or and bears the prize, because obviously the erm, suffix for the third person singular is going to be, you're going to use the modern version. +And by cause of virtues or, and, because of virtues and sweet smell and savour. +For by fairness they feed the sight and pleaseth the smell by odour, the touch of soft handling, and withstandeth +succoureth by virtue, and and, sorry, withstands and succours by virtue against many sicknesses and evils. +The problems that that you raise, now some of you ob obviously, didn't recognise some of those words, like please, pleases, I don't think anyone recognised, and full meaning of things like savour, but what the the problem was the changes in word order. +Look at the second sentence, no, the third sentence. +For by fairness they feed the sight and pleaseth the smell by odour, the touch by soft handling. +What's it actually saying? +Paul, you looked up at the times. +No, don't look at that, Elliott. +Look at the, at the thing at the top. +What's fairness. +What's +sweet smells +Yeah, well that's just, that's just two words th it's actually saying three different things. +What does fairness mean in this case? +Oh, we've caught another one, haven't we? +Beauty. +What's this. +Beauty, yes. +Beauty, fair, fair to be fairness to look at. +For by, for by beauty they feed the sight and pleaseth the smell by odour, the touch by soft handling. +See if you can paraphrase that, into, into modern standard English. +runs down to these versions underneath. +and so on. +I shouldn't have given it to you. +Yeah. +That's why I wasn't going to hand this out right at the beginning, because I wanted to make you work at it a bit more, er, then you can, when you've got those two versions written underneath. +It's it's actually a very simple statement that's been made in that sentence. +But, by their beauty they feed the sight, yeah. +They please, they please the smell by odour, so their odour pleases the sense of smell. +Now the thing is we, we can refer to sight and touch and hearing, but we don't refer to the sense of smell just as smell, in modern English. +They don't, you don't say er, this this pleases my smell, because my smell actually has a totally different meaning. +Erm, but that's the meaning in which it it's meant here, so by fairness they feed the sight, by their odour they please the sense of smell, and the softness of them, the the softness to touch, pleases the touch, pleases the sense of touch. +You What some you were erm, erm, put off by there, was the fact that these senses, I referred to just by their noun, like smell and touch, and you didn't recognise there, was reference to to the whole sense. +The last sentence is is the most difficult one, because of this word withstand, which of course is is very rarely used in this sense now. +But you can have the sense of withstand as something, you know, people, people withstanding an onslaught. +In fact, it's used by all commentators, who often use very erm, old fashioned erm, vocabulary,, withstanding the onslaught of the opposing team, and things like that. +Well, you wouldn't actually use the that kind of vocabulary in every day life. +Erm, and it means to, standing up against, erm, rejecting, oh no, I don't think rejecting is is +But, but I mean I suppose if we take sense of standing up against, it's saying, and it stands up against, and it withstands against many sicknesses and evils and inserted into the middle of that, and succoureth it by virtue, so it helps by its goodness to withstand sicknesses and evils. +So the process that you have to carry out, then is to find a way of transferring your literal translation once you've worked out word for word what is being said, into terms which mean something to a modern reader or, listener. +But the other important element is that you have to reflect the style of the original, look at the notes I've made at the bottom of the page, please. +So, you're, you're trying to find something which is in the language of the modern speaker. +But also which reflects the style of the original, and that means the for instance in the second sentence, no, third sentence, for by fairness they feed the sight and pleaseth the smell by odour and touch by self han , by soft handling. +You actually have a sense of style, there are three different sections to that description and you have, and there is actually some repetition involved erm, by by starting each, by by this reference to the sight, the smell, the touch, and you have to, and and that's the kind of sty stylistic element that you have to incorporate into your version and I put a note at the bottom too, that there are times when you can't totally update this kind of work. +For instance then, the very last point being made up in that rose thing, is, it says that it protects against sicknesses and evils. +Now obviously you can translate the idea of something being a preventative about illness or sickness, but it's very difficult to suggest in idiomatic modern English that roses can be a protection against evils, because you really, we really don't have that kind of concept, normally now, although there are many uses of erm, groups of people who might retain such a concept, and if something like that arises, you obviously can't make it idiomatic, because there's just no way it's going to work idiomatically in English. +Okay, look underneath, the, oh sorry, in between, underneath, underneath the box at the top. +The first version there, is one that I did before I even looked at your, at at any of the homeworks, and I got myself into some awkwardness of trying to translate virtues, and ended up with beneficial properties, erm, which is hardly perhaps very idiomatic and the one underneath that is Jemma's and the absent writer not that she could be embarrassed because she's not here, erm, and she's actually simplified more than I have, by half a line, you'll understand. +Have a look at that, I mean, it would have been better if Jemma was here, because I don't want to criticise, I mean, I used Jemma's because it was actually probably the best one that was done by anyone in the group. +Are there any ways in which you think that it does or does not work particularly well, looking at hers, mine's, mine's more boring, hers, she actually departs from the, from the text more. +Compare the the text at the beginning with hers, the the the Middle English text with hers, and tell me, is there anything which she has caught well, or anything which she has missed out, or look at the first sentence, is she right there? +She missed out the beareth the prize +Right , so there's, there's there's one actual reference gone. +She doesn't repeat flowers. +No, and I didn't do that until I read someone Niall's and he had repeated flowers and I thought why has he repeated flowers and realised that in fact that it is necessary. +Yeah, because the point that's being made is that it's only the flower of the rose which has all these properties, it's not the whole bush itself, presumably. +What about this second sentence? +Are you happy with that? +Ben? +Why? +No. +Why, you mean, you mean you're not happy with it, why? +I don't know +clue. +I was, I wasn't +Oh, right. +It doesn't in the middle English bit, it's doesn't say that it's a strong smell. +Right, that's true. +Yeah, it doesn't say it was a strong smell, no. +Well, else doesn't,wh wh what else does it say in that sentence. +Look are you, are you looking second sentence, Jemma's second sentence: This is due to a strong and sweet smell, in middle English it says, by cause of virtues and sweet smell and savour. +It says something about taste. +So it's the taste thing, and and also the virtues element is, has gone, hasn't it. +It actually, that actually wasn't the sentence I made, I can't count, it was actually the next sentence I wanted you to look at. +Because this is the one I want you to to be particularly be conscious of. +What about her version of the third sentence: It's beautiful to look at, wonderful to smell, as well as being extremely soft to touch. +Anthony? +What? +I thought that was pretty good. +It's pretty good, it's pretty good in conveying, the meaning. +In what way that, isn't it pretty good? +Tanya? +You're happy with it. +He really loves it, it's +Elliot. +The third sentence it's beautiful to look at etc comment on Jemma's version. +Well it's good, cos er, in the old English one. +It's +It's not old English. +Sorry, the middle English one. +It's er,three sections, it's er, that's sentences as well, it's got like, you know, using commas and er. +The same sentence structures. +Yeah, that's it. +Er, right, so stylistically she has erm, she's picked up, and she's actually picked up the patterning as well of that, whereas in the middle English one, it was,th the sight, the odour, the touch, no, it was the smell, the touch, she has used an infini an infinitive of a verb, which gets away from the problem, that we don't use nouns for these things. +To look at, to smell, to touch, so that she's, she's erm, actually found a way of getting the same patterning. +Erm, but in fact, she's she's missed the third sentence and, where she said that the rose has withstood many sicknesses and evils, erm, whereas in fact, what it says is it withstands and succours against sicknesses and evils, which is a totally different element. +We can't put. +Right, can you put that away somewhere, that sheet. +No this +Put that away. +No. +Yes, I'm being indecisive. +Yes, you don't need it for what we're going to do now +Oh, this is actually from varieties, this extract and erm, I'm giving it to you, cos varieties here, but because the other element which we haven't considered is the actual appearance on the page of erm, middle English well this is actually early modern English. +But it's still right on that, on that turning point, it's a hundred and fifty years after the John Trevisa theme that we just looked at. +But the language is very similar, erm, although it's into the early modern English period. +Have a quick erm, read through it, please, out loud, everybody, just quietly to yourselves, but read it out loud, because it makes much more sense, as they sound. +Okay, okay, you've got struck once you get yourself round all the letter forms and so on. +Does anybody know roman numerals? +Yeah. +Yes? +Yes. +So what chapter is it at the top? +Ten. +Ten. +Oh, no, eight. +Eight. +Eight, right. +Erm, line line four and five, how many days. +Six. +This is a nice mixture. +A hundred and +Something +Fifty. +Fifty. +Fifty. +A hundred and fifty days. +Erm, what about line, oh I see, it's not line a hundred, the lines are numbered in an odd way. +Four, erm, the, on this line marked five, How +The something, the date. +The seventeenth. +Seventeenth day of the +Seventh month. +Seventh month. +until the tenth month and after the end of? +Fifty. +Sixty days. +It's forty. +Sixty. +Forty, forty, yeah. +Cos the x is before the okay. +Forty days. +So does everybo , does everybody know their roman numerals? +Yeah. +Yeah. +Good. +In that case, erm, Niall would you read out the first er paragraph there. +God remembered Noah and all is that an f +No. +Can anyone tell him? +Beasts +Beasts. +Beasts. +Right yes. +cattle were with him in the Ark, and God made the wind blow, is it upon, upon the earth and waters and the fountains the windows of heavens were opened. +No, it doesn't say opened. +It's that same letter form all the time. +The one that looks like an f. +No. +And the of heaven was within and the waters returned to the earth and abated after the end of a hundred and fifty days. +A hundred and fifty days. +Okay. +Erm, let's just read to the end, erm,can I pounce on, erm, Matthew will you read to the end. +With the Ark rested upon the mountains of Ararat, the seventeenth day of the seventh month and the waters went away and decreased until the tenth month and the first day of the tenth month, the tops of the mountains appeared, and after the end of forty days, Noah opened the window of the Ark, which he had made and sent forth a raven which went out, ever going and coming again until the waters were dried up upon the earth. +Right they dried up upon the earth. +Right, they're are obviously some unusual letter forms there. +Such as what, +Erm, unusual spellings, sorry? +The f t for +The f, yeah the f s well I'll come back to that. +What else. +Sorry, the u v interchange you've got that one yes. +The y and i, +The y and i, I'm sure that is, yes, y and i interchange. +Anything else. +e suffix. +What suffix? +The e suffix. +The e suffix is used indeed it is, you'll an example +Sorry, I can't hear you, what? +Listen. +I am listening, but you mutter. +Like, it's got upon, but it hasn't got the n on the end. +Right. +But what has it got. +A little thing above +Yeah, it's got a little mark above the, above the vowel sound. +What else in their performance are unusual, +They've got double p's everywhere, where where in, today, we've put +That's the spelling isn't it, that's the spelling thing rather than actual letter forms. +So you've done, you got that f and and f the the the these f's and s's, you've done the u v's where the letters are actually changed. +The i y one is is more a spelling convention than actual letter forms. +You've got the use of things like upon and, there was something or other else. +Heaven, heaven, spelt like that, and so on, so the final n sound is missing. +What else have you said, I've forgotten +E suffix +What? +E suffix. +E suffix, yes. +Again, that's to some extent, it's a grammatical convention, rather than a er a letter form convention, but it is extra letters. +There are other things. +Where it's got the, it's y +Yeah, right. +It's got the is spelt, as a y with e a tiny e, written above it. +So +Some of the +Ampersand is used for and, which is not used in modern printing and, and you've got roman, roman numerals. +So if you were commenting on such a section as this, you would have a great deal of things to say on, just on the letter forms as they appear on the page. +Tell me what the rule is, for the usage of the s's. +Look at all the words with s in, and s t's, and you should be able to draw from that, a rule, which is being observed by this printer In which position is the s printed as an f? +Before a t. +Before a t. +Before a t, and there's another one, too. +e, e. +Before an e. +Before an e. +After. +After an l. +After an l. +I forgot +At the beginning of a sentence, at the beginning of a word. +It's. +In the middle of the word. +Yeah, it's actually, actually, having said that, it erm, it varies, doesn't it. +Because in fact, it's in the middle of some words, erm, but as, it's at the beginning of a word, which I now can't find. +Just say it. +Where? +Yes, sorry, you could say it again, is sent on line seven, or whatever is numbered seven. +Apart from that, it's only used in the beginnings of words, and the, the one clear rule is that s followed by a t is printed in this way. +In fact, there, that that, that's that printing of s, that shape of s, followed by a t, was still used by some printers right up until the twentieth century, because it's actually, you know that when when prints, print was put together by hand, by picking up each letter erm, and as assembling it separately, there was actually always a stop letter, a stop erm, I can't remember what it's called, although I did some printing years ago, erm, lump a die thing with s t already printed together, because because s t is used so much in combination, the erm, printer didn't always have to set up s followed by a t, but had a rack of s t's already prepared and they were often, virtually joined together in this way, and erm, I got, I got an edition of I think it's the novels of Jane Austen printed in the nineteen twenties which still use that shape of s t but used as the small s for any other forms. +You'll sometimes find that, there's a distinction made between the s and the, and the f, because the s doesn't have either, either has a tail on it, or doesn't have as big a bar across as the f one. +But, in this case, the printer is using exactly the same font obviously, for s and f. +The erm, what's the rule that you observe with this dash above a vowel. +Before an +Sorry? +Before an n. +It's not, it's not just before it, it's it actually indicates an n, +Yeah. +doesn't it, yeah. +It shows that in fact, the following letter is an n. +Erm, I don't have any idea, not knowing very much about this, why that was done. +They've done it differently. +in one, in one heaven, they've done er, they've just put the n in one, in one heaven, they put the little thing on the e. +Yeah. +They, it could be something to do with space, erm, I don't really know. +Erm, but but, you can easily see what the rule is, can't you, I mean, it's enough, it's enough to be able to recognise that there is a pattern to that usage. +This, this word here, this this again, it's a, it's a printer's device. +The, is one of the most common words in English and, to set up, the, all the time, would be very time consuming, and so this symbol was obviously available to the printer and obviously what it spells out is ye, which you now know from pubs that are called things like Ye Olde erm, Hen, and and that sort of thing. +So it's, it is a, it's a survival in that m , in in that respect, and ye is t , is merely, erm, an archaic version of the, and and would have been pronounced ye. +Erm,ampersand is is quite interesting, you all know that symbol, because it's used in handwriting, although nowadays, it, nowadays you would tend to use something like that I don't know, what, do you, do you, do you sort of if you want to write and quickly. +Erm, but people who learned copperplate writing used to do this, for their and, +Like that. +Yes . +like that. +Like that? +Yeah, that's it. +Right, and that, that's obviously a,an and if you look at it, it's it's got a few less squiggles than that one, but it's a, it's a version of. +Erm, what why is it unusual to see that there? +Because it's a shortening. +It's a shortener, yes. +Carry on. +What? +It's a shortener and +It's formal writing. +You don't use that +You don't normally see it in print, do you. +No, it's it's used it's used in situations where an abbreviation can be made, or er, er, erm, an abstract symbol can be made, but again, this this was used normally in print, even in printing of novels and sermons and erm, and important documents, right up,u you know, up and well into the nineteenth century, before it was considered that that was not formal enough, and that the word and had to be written out formally Are there any words in this section which you can't find a modern English version of easily? +There aren't really, are there? +In that case, take the first paragraph erm take this first paragraph, you lot over here. +The second paragraph, you you three, the third paragraph, you three, and do me an idiomatic version in five minutes. +Erm. +Now you want to, if you want to sub-divide that first paragraph, if one of you took it to: and the waters ceased, and the other half took it from: and the fountains of the deep. +So that, can you could give me two, please, give me a literal translation and then an idiomatic one, as if you're doing a modern bible. +And you've got five minutes to do both. +So one person write, and the other one just say what they're writing. +Right, you should have finished this, have you? +Yeah. +Yeah. +Have you three over there? +Okay right, stop, stop, stop please, you're out of your heads if you haven't got it on to paper. +Now, first section, that's you two, isn't it. +No, we're in the second bit. +Oh, these two. +Right give me this idiomatic first version, please, and any anything which is, which you consider to be not idiomatic. +Right +I'd like to know +So, can you listen to this please , erm, you have to finish in your heads now. +Listen to this first one. +Now, when you're trying to distinguish whether it's idiomatic or not, don't, you know it's very difficult to find the fine line between something which is formal, and still idiomatic, and something which is idiomatic through being too colloquially informal. +I'll try and explain what I mean. +Idiomatic means, in,wi with a sort of, with phrasing, with word ordering, with a choice of vocabulary which is immediately recognised what as modern English, but if this thing is written in a formal style then, it is fair enough, that the modern idiomatic version will also be very formal. +Idiomatic doesn't mean colloquial. +It doesn't have to be in every day speech patterns. +If it's a fairly formal written thing, but there, it has got to use word ordering, grammar, punctuation, vocabulary which are those, which are presently used. +So are you ready er, to give us a version now, Tanya or Amelia or someone. +Come on, Amelia. +Are you all working on the same one incidentally or have you got separate ones? +No. +cos he's done the last bit, +And God remembered Noah, the beasts and all the cattle that were with him in the Ark. +God made the wind blow upon earth and stop the water. +Okay. +Everyone listening this time, let's have this once more. +To comment on, if the if there's anything there that doesn't read to you as being totally idiomatic. +Go again. +God remembered Noah, the beasts and all the cattle that were with him in the Ark. +God made the wind blow upon the earth and stop the water. +You wouldn't say beasts. +Say animals wouldn't you. +You'd say animals. +Right. +Okay. +Hairy creatures. +I used these +Yes, but you probably use it in a slightly different context, don't you. +You might be using it as an, as an insult. +Erm. +And you actually did, God remembered Noah and the beasts, didn't you, +Yeah, +Why did you cut all, at that point? +I don't know it was his idea. +Erm, cos cos three, stating three things, aren't there, and I thought it would be easy to +Sorry, you were stating +Well, he was stating God remembered Noah, the beasts and the cattle. +He was stating three things. +Just God remembered Noah and all the animals. +So instead of saying and all the time +What are cattle +No, no, no, no. +That's what I thought +Yes, yes, I mean, I think it was, I don't think that removing all actually did anything , but Shh, and only if you're, if you're adding to this, please. +So when you got what did you do then. +She well, I, read your one +Alright Tanya read your one. +Erm, God made the wind blow upon the earth and stopped the water. +That's right. +Right, all I was going to ask was, have you, have you started a new sentence there, or have you got that as part of the original sentence? +Started a new sentence. +Should you have? +Should I have started a new sentence then. +If we're in modern standard English. +Yeah. +So you're going to start a new sen start a new sentence with and. +No, I didn't, we didn't. +. +What did you start it with? +It started with +Ah, so you cut and. +Yes. +Yeah. +Right. +Right. +Because another way to have done it, would have been, if you're going to do it all, no, you didn't do it all in one sentence, that's right. +If you were going to, you could do it all in one sentence, that that's the other point I was going to make. +But you, in modern standard English you wouldn't begin a second sentence with and. +No. +Because, as you'll remember, it is frowned upon to begin a sentence with and, and I always cross it out in your essays, don't I. +Okay, the second section, please. +The fountains of the deep and the windows of heaven were stopped and the rain of heaven was forbidden. +The waters returned to the earth and after erm, and were calm after a hundred and fifty days. +Okay, I think we'd better take this slowly. +Alright. +First phrase. +The fountains of the deep and the +Okay fountains of the deep. +Idiomatic? +No. +What, what would have, what would the reference be to, that one could, could possibly use. +The sea. +I think that's probably just a bit bald, isn't it. +Fountains how could you convey the sense of waters,swirl , surging up out of the deep or something. +Waves. +The raging +Currents +Currents. +The raging currents. +The raging currents. +Certainly, did you say the fountains of the deep. +Certainly the deep, I think, we would very rarely use the deep to talk about the sea now. +I don't think we would. +I just write down what she says. +No! +You turned round and said, do it in that one, so I'm doing it in that one, then you changed to to doing it in that one. +It weren't my fault. +Right. +For whatever reason, what,ca can you come up with another version of the fountains of the deep. +The raging waves. +The what waves. +The raging waves. +The raging waves of the oceans. +The raging waves. +Yes. +That's pretty, that's pretty dramatic isn't it. +Well, it's certainly it's idiomatic. +The swirling currents. +The deep sea spray. +No, I don't know about a spray, I don't know although the fountain the fountain idea, doesn't it. +so they could have a shower +Shh, people. +What you're working towards here, is obviously to say that they were stopped and that this was the end of the flood, so it's got to be something, something very major, and something like swirling currents Current, currents or raging waves does do that, I suppose. +What about the windows of heaven. +Wha what does the image mean? +What's +Clouds. +Well yeah, what whatever whatever it is that the rain comes through from heaven, something that opens, opens in heaven and lets the rain come through. +So if you're doing a a +a purely modern translation, what could you use for windows of heaven, and Niall is suggesting clouds, the clouds were stopped, the an and stopped in this sense means closed, the windows of heaven were closed. +Possibly well no, cos they, because it then goes on to the rain in heaven, I was going to say, maybe send the rain +Clouds cleared. +The clouds, the clouds cleared, or were cleared, because it's God doing all of this. +Fountains of the deep and windows of heaven were stopped, +angry storm +The waves of the deep, and the er, clouds were +Cloud +Cleared, were dispersed, and what have you got next, anyway after that, that that's obviously a very problematic thing, because it's using poetic images which are very difficult to to move into modern standard English, but what have we got for the rain of heaven please ? +And the rain +And the rain does what? +Was forbidden, was stopped. +Okay, well yeah, you're changing it as you go now. +Yeah. +The rain of heaven. +We always use that kind of phrase +the heavens are falling down. +The acid rains, bring it up to date. +The rain of heaven. +Could you give me another version of that please,. +The rain of heaven, in idiomatic standard English. +the weather forecast. +No. +Yes it does. +And it, +just say the rain. +The falling rain. +Falling rain, even the rain from the heaven,heav no you can't use heaven's rain in this case, can you. +The rain from the sky. +Yeah, it's not the heaven I'm objecting to, it's, it's saying the rain of heaven, we we don't use that kind of structure now. +We would say the rain from heaven, or erm, heaven's rain. +Heavenly rain. +Heavenly rain, yes, something like that. +Rain which God sent. +Erm, was forbidden, and quickly changed that, to was stopped, or was prevented, or was refus was not refused. +So carry on, rest of the sentence, please. +The waters returned to the earth. +from, that's not what it says, though, is it. +What? +It says, and the waters returned from off the earth. +So what's it saying? +The waters returned from off the earth. +So what's, what, where did they return. +To the heaven. +To no. +Sorry, sorry. +They evaporated. +They came from the earth, and that's where they returned. +Subsided. +They subsided, yes. +There were waters on the earth, but when the rain stopped, the waters went from off the earth, they went back to the seas, didn't they. +Did they still think the Earth was flat in those days? +Even, well, almost even at the time when this last translation was doing, but certainly the time the bible was written. +What's that got to do with it? +Because obviously I'm not very, no it's all right. +Why did they think the Earth was flat for? +What is it +Just popped into my head. +Sorry. +Why did they think it was flat? +Well, you can't actually see a curve can you, when you look around. +No, but it's +Sorry? +like that. +Did they actually, they thought then it just ended like drop off . +Literally. +The fear, the fear when when voyages of exploration were going out right up to the renaissance, was that the boats would actually run off the end of the earth, and fall into a void. +Who is it that went over, first? +Went over? +You mean over the edge? +No, I mean +Where? +Oh, I know what I'm talking about. +Are you talking about Columbus? +Yeah. +In fourteen ninety-two. +Yes. +But that's beside the point. +So, shh please, Tanya, the waters returned from off the earth, so y , it's saying the waters erm, ran off the earth, subsided from +Waters subsided. +Drained off. +That's what he had really. +Carry on. +And were calm after a hundred and fort fifty days, after +Yeah, okay. +I think we'll, we'll just about move on to the next paragraph please, is that you lot Paul. +The Ark rested on top of the Ararat mountains, on the seventeenth of July. +The water +There was a lovely there was a lovely slow reaction there. +As everybody thought, July? +seventeenth day of the seventh month +I mean, depends where your counting the months from, and I don't know biblically, did they start in January? +Didn't, didn't they mean that as in a period of time they'd been stuck in the Ark. +Yeah do that. +Well, I don't know. +Alright. +Paul carry on. +The water continued to evaporate until October. +Carry on. +And on the first, on the first of October, the tops of the mountains appeared. +Okay. +You always know +That's what I'd say anyway. +What. +You always know when Paul does a version, it's going to be his own version. +But you do have to, you do have to be aware of being too clever for your own good,because they only want a translation. +Erm, to do a complete re-writ vers re-written version is often what you are, what you are allowed to do, but I think you will al , also need to show them a fairly literal translation, first. +So anyway, you did rested upon Ararat mountains and Elliot was arguing with that one, saying the mountains of Ararat. +I mean, the mountain is usually referred to as Mount Ararat, isn't it, I didn't know,several of them, erm, is Ararat the place where the mountains were, or is it actually the name of the mountains. +The name of the mountains. +No. +It's the place where the mountains were. +A mountain range. +No, it says Mount Ararat. +Yeah. +So what? +So yeah, I'm not sure whether it, whether whether one should translate it as the mountains of Ararat, or the Ararat mountains. +Certainly modern usage would suggest the name going before the mountains wouldn't it, and that's what you've opted for, and the the July one, I really don't know about. +Erm, +But. +The waters went away and decreased. +I think in relation to the fact that we were talk , that the earliest earlier thinkers about the water running off the earth. +I don't think you could assume that they evaporated. +They must of, how else, what else . +I would, I would say subsided . +No, ran down, you know, ran off into the ocean, ran into the rivers and off into the ocean, that way. +I think all you need to say is they +Subsided. +subsided, decreased. +Got less. +Died down. +died down. +The assumption that they evaporated, is not there. +I thought that, though. +Sorry? +Nothing. +You have, you have taken the word evaporated out of the air, and it's it's an assumption, you must cross that out. +Well, it's a valid assumption, cos where, waters'll go evaporate +It it gets evaporated eventually. +If you er, if the people of West Sussex a couple of weeks ago, when there was flooding around Chichester, they're actually going to wait for the waters to evaporate. +Not in the middle of winter. +It'd be gone within a few hours. +That's because it soaks into the earth. +drains. +Drains. +Yeah. +Evaporates like +I think you need to tidy up a bit. +puddles on concrete. +It's not going to sink into the concrete, is it? +Unless they're on concrete it's very shallow, and and evaporation is possible, when your talking about floods on land, yes, it's going to seep into the earth, it's gonna run down +run down the drain, then. +I remember when I was +Yeah. +Okay. +Apart from that, I think we can accept a erm, that this th th the that that's a fairly reasonable meaning. +What about the last one, please, whose gonna read that. +Darren loudly. +Listen, please. +Shh. +At the end of forty days Noah opened the window of the Ark, that he had made and sent out a raven which came and went until the waters upon the earth had dried up. +Yeah well, did everyone hear that? +No. +could we have it again with a bigger voice? +At the end of forty days Noah opened the window of the Ark +Shh, shh, no, please, listen. +He had made and sent out a raven which came and went until the waters upon the earth had dried up. +And sent out a raven, what? +Which came and went until the waters upon the earth had dried up. +Right, I see. +Which came and went is there, in some way I think you've lost a bit of meaning there. +In came and went, because it's got, which went out ever going and coming again, the ever, aspect has gone, so how could you get that. +Or came and went continually, or something like that. +Constantly. +Went back. +And the last, shh, please the last part of the sentence I +Erm, upon the earth, hang on, and went until the waters upon the earth had drained. +well, okay, right what I would like you to do, on your bit of paper +On your, on the sheet of paper that you've got, could you now, that, that sheet, could you, write down, please, different letter form differences, and put a sub-heading that says, something like: letter forms,the other one of these was that +with the y with the little t's above it. +That one and that, so you've got, one, two, three, four, five, six different sorts of letter form changes to comment on. +Could you, +I I suggest you do it on the same sheet that's got the th the I can't see a copy, +Sorry. +actually do it on this sheet, somewhere on there, so you'll have a revision of +Make a list of the wheth of the letter form changes, +Right. +Then make a list of some of the obvious spelling changes, which I'm going to ask you about in a moment. +What just do what we've really just said? +Yeah. +Just summarise. +On the sheet. +On this sheet, cos then you've got it for revision. +Yeah. +Oh, on this sheet. +On that sheet. +Okay. +And what you need to do is, obviously indicate what the modern version is, next to that +shut up, alright. +Paul. +I was going to +Elliot. +Just do it. +Can you just do that. +Ah. +Don't do the i y, e one, because we'll take that as a spelling and grammatical change. +Was it, was the s t one because of printing. +Well, yeah, because it was a traditional grouping, but, the use of the, of the, of the long round shape for an s, was an early form, anyway, and you see, it's used, it's not used just for s t, there are several cases where it's used, as purely as an s. +Even though exactly the same letter form is used, same type form is used as for the f Good. +Hello. + +On kiss. +On kiss. +and they come in tubes and there's four in a tube of them. +you can have loads of those. +I'll give you ten for that. +Are you gonna come back tomorrow? +Am I allowed? +Well yes. +Oh alright then. +yeah you can carry on till somebody knocks you off your perch. +Yeah +And let's just hope it's soon. +I'll talk to you tomorrow. +Oh thanks. +Tarrah. +Bye. +Bye bye, Loot at Lunchtime tomorrow then, ten to one, er quarter to oneish just after the Action Line bulletin, listen in then and we'll give you the qualifying question. +Sixteen minutes to two now this is erm Vanity Fair and it's early in the morning. +No it's not. +Vanity Fair and er it's early in the morning. +It's er middle of the afternoon, it's er Radio Nottingham, thirteen minutes to two now. +On the trains no problems, East Midlands Airport say everything's running to time, in the city centre no huge delays anywhere, on the motorways they're all okay as well, on the A One there's major work just started on the roundabout, that's the er five lanes end roundabout affecting southbound traffic, there are long delays there in peak times, that's at er five lane ends, the work there on the A One just started, that's the Roundabout, southbound traffic is being affected, there are long delays there. +Road in the A Six Double O Five there's roadworks on the junction of Lane causing some delays. +Newark town centre, Hill er area of the town, part of is closed so diversions are signed there. +On the A Six O Nine there's resurfacing on Road between Drive and Drive and erm further up the M One junction eighteen, it's down to one lane on the southbound carriageway that is causing delays and there is a contraflow on the M One between junctions twenty one and twenty two in operation there in both directions. +No problems there at the moment but if you're heading there later on watch it. +Updates on the travel for you throughout the afternoon and a full service at teatime with John on Radio Nottingham from er half four till seven. +F M one O three point eight and ninety five point five, Nottinghamshire's favourite station. +And the weather forecast for this afternoon and this evening from John from off you go. +Yes er rain reaching most parts of the region th this afternoon, tonight will be cloudy with further rain, becoming drier in the morning. +The outlook for Wednesday, dry but isolated showers may occur or develop. +Yeah. +Thursday. +Early mist and frost clearing leaving sunny spells, less than twenty five per cent chance of rain. +That's good isn't eh? +Twenty five per cent. +Yeah I dunno how they work that one out. +Well I don't know, it's er big of string isn't it or something like +Ah that's it, string and a plumb bob. +Hold their finger up and see which way the wind's blowing. +That's it. +Bye John. +Okay, cheers Geoff. +Tarrah. +Take care. +Let me just do this from er Road police station. +They want twelve volunteers for an I D parade. +It's at seven o'clock tonight, it's at Road police station, they're looking for white males aged about fortyish, five foot five to six foot approximately tall, of slim build, need to be clean shaven, shoulder length dark brown hair. +If you'll stand in the I D parade for them tonight at seven o'clock they'll give you ten pounds. +Can you call and ask for Inspector , he'll tell you more. +That's they'll give you a tenner, you need to be white male, fortyish, five foot five to six foot, slim build, clean shaven. +They'll give you ten pounds, to call for an I D parade tonight. +They need a dozen people, ask for Inspector when you ring. +Lee Marvin and er wandering star. +It's Radio Nottingham and it's eight minutes to two. +We'll do Kids' County these have been the clues for today's one. +It's got loads of mud loads of mud. +loads of loads of egg loads of eggs hatched. +It's got a greenhouse next to it. +It's got people I mean it's got someone's mums on it. +It's got a lot of plants in it. +People come and visit it and +Now we know it not a chicken factory, it's not the Farm, it's not Farm, it's not Park or Pond, or the arboretum or Hill. +Elizabeth is on at work in town. +Hello. +Hello. +Where are you at work in town? +At . +What? +. +Where's that? +It's on . +On where? +Oh . +yes. +Ah, who was the erm who, who is it who makes th the curtains and blinds? +And she has her picture on all the adverts? +Oh I don't +And she's she's up there somewhere and underneath it it says, +it says, I am the lady I make them. +Oh yes well I don't know who that one i +Don't you know who it is? +No. +It's always in the Post. +Yes. +It's always in there, and er and I can remember walking around there and seeing the place where they make them, and her photograph's outside and underneath it says, I am the lady I make them. +me +It's not you is it? +I don't think so. +It's not you? +No +Are you busy today? +Yes we're always busy. +Are you? +What d do you make them or sell them or what? +Yes we do make them and sell them. +So have you got big machines there? +Yes. +Have you? +Yes. +Well d do you actually sort of make the lace fr from scratch or? +Yes that's right yes. +Do you? +Mhm. +Funny cos there aren't many places left that do that now are there? +Oh no we don't make it from scratch, we just do the you know the m main machining +Oh I see you just run 'em up? +Yes, that's right make +the curtain yes. +I get it. +Look there's Kids' County Elizabeth where are we after? +Where did I say? +I've forgotten now. +I dunno know where you said. +I'm sorry darling Park. +Park ? +Yes +No it's not . +just gave me the hint you see. +It's not but it's a lovely thought. +Oh +Yeah, have you been on before? +Well I do ring up now and again yes. +Do ya? +But I've never been talking to you before. +Oh haven't you? +No. +So do you want a a Radio Virgin thing then? +Oh alright then. +Well you can have one of those for being your first time on. +Hang on the line we'll sort you out with one of them, alright? +Oh my god it's not my +Tarrah. +Hello. +Bye bye. +Bye bye +Hang on the line we'll sort you o , she's getting all confused. +Er Jerry's on from , hello Jerry. +Hello . +How are ya? +Oh er not too bad you know. +It's turned out nasty I know that . +It has hasn't it? +Turned out drippy again. +It's a good job I took the dog out this morning cos it ain't fit to take a dog out. +It's not now,to get a brolly for your dog. +Get one of those ones that you strap on its back. +Er n Kids' County, where they talking about? +Er er . +? +No it's not. +It's not, never mind, tarrah. +Tarrah. +Bye bye. +Who's on next? +Lillian from , hello Lillian. +Hello. +How are you? +Fine thank you. +and tell me about you, what do you do? +Well I'm a housewife and I've been painting most of the morning. +Oh have you? +What room is it? +Well I've been doing the landing you know, paint w white paintwork. +Er busy doing that. +This afternoon ironing so +A oh +so +oh now you've got all the jobs done haven't you today? +That's it. +What a time of it you've got. +How many kids have you got? +Two but they're grown up. +You know th twenty two and ninete er nineteen so mine aren't really small children. +I see you've got shut of them already you see? +Well I've got one at home but +Oh have you? +Yes. +Yeah. +Anyway look Kids' County, where do you think we need Lillian? +Well I think it's the School in the complex. +erm +The greenhouse. +Yes go on then you can have it. +You can have it, they're talking about the farm that they've got at the School +Yes that's yeah. +I know they've got a farm +Yes,th +they sell plants. +s so that's it. +So erm now I've talked you for so long that I've not got time to play this bit about the werewolves at Retford you see +Really? +so I'll blame you for it entirely Lillian +Yes okay. +and er if the werewolves come out then er we'll send them round to your house. +Oh thank you. +Do your kids go up to School then is that where they went? +No no they didn't used to go there but we lived in . +No they used to go to the . +Oh did they? +Yeah. +Oh I see. +I see. +What bit of W +I can remember being built. +Can you? +Cos I used to go to Trent Bridge in er then, you know in the early fifties. +Yeah. +And I can remember that being built. +Ah right I see. +School then. +It was called the School. +Ah yeah for Kids' County, you can have er a video called the Battle of the Atlantic, one of those, er a child's reading book, you can have loads of nuts and sweets er a T shirt and some recipes and things too, alright? +Oh yeah lovely thank you. +Hang on the line we'll lob it all off to you, well done it was the farm at School. +Alright, tarrah. +bye bye. +Bye bye there. +Lillian getting that right. +Er last one from me today will be this from everything but the girl. +everything but the girl. +And er love is strange. +Dennis is next with afternoon special, it's Tuesday so it's where are you now ? +And then John at teatime, the football from seven and then John from ten till midnight, on the county's favourite radio station, it's B B C Radio Nottingham at two o'clock. +Radio Nottingham News with Andy . +Within the past hour has announced that a review is being launched into the future of three pits in Yorkshire with the intention of closing them all down. +The mines involved are and near Doncaster and near Pontefract. +The company says the prospects for all three are bleak. +Richard reports. +'s northern director told a meeting of union officials that prospects for the three pits are bleak. +More coal is being produced that can be sold, even the coal burn at power stations this year is likely to be seven million tons less than expected. +Half that amount comes from Yorkshire pits. +says two of the collieries, and are operating at a loss. +The third is producing coal cheaply but most of it is being stockpiled because no one wants to buy it. +A spokesman for the National Union of Mineworkers says it's what was expected. +The country will soon be without a viable coal industry, he said, and will have to rely increasingly on imported energy supplies. +Contempt writs have been served against the Home Secretary and his predecessor Kenneth Clarke. +It's understood the proceedings arise from their decision to deport the legal guardian of six Nottingham children who were prohibited from leaving the country. +has been looking after her younger brothers and sisters since they were made wards of court when their parents were sent back to India. +This report from Jeremy . +The family came to Britain from Assam when their home was burnt down during Hindu Sikh riots nine years ago. +But after losing a protracted fight for asylum both parents were deported. +Now their eldest daughter has been told to leave too, but her supporters believe the decision is a clear breach of the children's wardship order. +Lawyers are expected to argue that Michael Howard and Mr Clarke are both in contempt of the court's decision by pursuing her deportation. +If found guilty they could be fined and ordered to pay court costs. +It'd also allow Miss 's lawyers to seek an injunction preventing the deportation which would set a legal precedent. +Her supporters believe it would force the government to reexamine their deportation procedures. +The jury in the James murder trial at Preston Crown Court has been read a statement by a train driver who described how two days after James's disappearance, he saw human remains on the railway line at Walton. +Two eleven year old boys deny the abduction and murder of James and the attempted abduction of another boy. +Adam reports. +The prosecution showed the jury at Preston Crown Court several bags of stones, bricks and masonry found on the railway embankment where James's body was discovered. +Some of the stones were said to be stained with blood. +They were also shown an iron bar. +The judge Mr Justice described it as heavy and as it was handed to members of the jury he warned them not to drop it. +A quantity of clothing was also shown to the court. +The courtroom fell silent as the exhibits were passed round. +Earlier there was evidence from a train driver who said he had seen human remains lying by the track at Walton. +The trial continues. +Solicitors acting for the Princess of Wales have demanded that secret photographs of her working out in a gym should be handed over and that she should be given details of how much money was made from them. +This morning writs were issued in the High Court against the editors of the and and against the gym and its owner. +Police in Jersey searching for the bodies of Nicholas and Elizabeth who were killed six years ago have found what appear to be human remains. +Their two sons Mark and Roderick have been charged with their murders. +This morning Mark appeared in court on the island and again denied the charge. +He was remanded in custody for a week. +A school near Eastwood's been closed today after staff complained that fumes in the building were causing chest and throat problems. +Health officials and experts from are trying to trace the cause of the gases at Junior School. +People began to feel ill yesterday afternoon and today the head Jean has told all two hundred and forty four pupils to stay at home. +She says experts think the fumes are coming from the drains. +People are experiencing a smell which is not particularly distressing. +But it seems to be getting into the the the throat and and the chest. +Adults have noticed throat and chest difficulties there. +We've more or less pinned it down to coming from the the drainage systems. +And police on Merseyside have arrested thirteen people today in connection with the sale of the drug crack. +More than two hundred officers took part in the operation which centred on the Toxteth area of the city. +And the weather, overcast with rain soon reaching all parts today, becoming heavy at times, the maximum temperatures up to ten celsius fifty fahrenheit, it's going to be drier and brighter tomorrow. +B B C Radio Nottingham News, it's five minutes past two.. +Hello and welcome to Afternoon Special this Tuesday afternoon, linking the East Midlands. +And with it being Tuesday it means that we've our missing persons feature, where are you now, round about three thirty today, so if you've lost touch with a friend, relative or neighbour we could find them for you if they're still in the East Midlands. +Call us on if you'd like to be included in where are you now, the feature at three thirty. +On the hour the news and weather and we'd like to hear from you this afternoon. +If you'd like to have a chat on the air call us on . +You have to dial the code O six O two if you're ringing from outside the Nottingham area. +Got music throughout the programme and a musical competition to start. +It's our music quiz, a question is asked about the record, you answer the question, win a prize. +And the question about last week's postal competition was, what's Christmassy about this? +Last week's postal competition, what's Christmassy about that? +Well the answer was holly, because it was Buddy Holly. +So what's Christmassy about that? +Holly. +Now some winners coming up. +Holly, holly. +Er Mr and Mrs , Road, Evington, you're a winner. +Er Mrs Joan of Street, Belper, a winner. +Peter , Cottage,sp at er near Buxton. +And one more coming up, let's take it from the bottom of the pile, literally, and it turns out to be Mrs Diane , Street, Market Harborough. +There y are. +Those are the winners. +All said, holly. +That was what was Christmassy about that record. +Now the question about this record is, tell me another singer with the same name. +Don't normally get two singers with the same name but tell me another singer with the same name. +I don't want to know the name of this singer, I want to know the name of the other singer with the same name. +C all will be revealed very shortly. +Call us on please. +Now this one's a bit strange. +I do not want the name of that singer, but I want the name of a singer with the same name. +If you got the answer right you'll know what I mean. +John of Saxilby. +Hello Dennis. +What's the name of the singer with the same name but not the name of that singer? +Donovan? +That's it. +Say no more than that and that wins you a prize. +Can you call anywhere? +Er Lincoln. +Great, thanks a lot John. +Okay. +Bye. +Bye. +Donovan. +Yes. +Robert of . +What were you gonna say? +Donovan. +Why? +Dunno just said it. +Well what was the name of that singer? +Pardon? +What was the name of th s of that singer? +What, Jason Donovan? +Jason Donovan that's right. +That'll win you a prize. +Oh thanks . +Can you call anywhere? +Pardon? +Can you call anywhere? +Derby. +Derby. +Right we'll have it ready for you. +Oh thanks. +Bye. +Tarrah. +Yes Jason Donovan, the name of the same singer, it was Donovan but er if you'd have said Jason Donovan yo of course you'd have been incorrect. +Anyway right that's how we play it, that's how we play it. +Bit weird. +What sort of erm what yeah what pet is involved here? +What pet is involved here? +Call us on ple Just want the name of the pet involved in that record, that's all I want the name of the pet involved in that record. +And now on the line from Lutterworth, Pauline . +Hello Pauline. +Hello. +name of the pet. +Dog. +That's it. +Erm +a prize for you. +Can you call anywhere? +Er no. +we'll we'll send it you. +We've +Erm +got your address have we? +Erm yes thanks Dennis. +Okay. +Erm Dennis +What love? +Er my sister won erm whatever you're sending, last week. +Oh yeah? +Erm and she ain't received it yet. +Yeah. +Eh? +She's not received +No er we've been told that Radio Leicester, our colleagues here at Radio Leicester tell us that there's a bit of a delay in sending out C Ds. +Oh right. +Only a bit of a delay so +Oh okay. +But but well they've got all the names and everything and they'll be with you shortly. +Right. +Okay love ? +Good of ya. +Okay. +Thanks a lot Dennis. +Bye. +Bye. +Now Raymond of Derby. +Hello. +What we you gonna say? +I thought it was a dragon. +Why did you think it was a dragon? +It was just the way the music was. +Oh no. +Oh so you don't know why it was dog? +I don't, no. +Because it was the do Bonzo Dog Doodah Band. +Yeah. +Never mind. +Raymond thanks for trying. +Okay. +Bye. +Bye. +Now ooh it's the postal isn't it already? +Yes the postal. +What sort of brass is involved here? +What sort of brass is involved here? +Answers on a postcard to the music quiz and whichever town is nearest you, Derby, Leicester, Lincoln or Nottingham. +That's where you send the postcard to be here by Tuesday of next week and the question is, what sort of brass is involved here? +Now the question is, what sort of brass is involved in that record? +Postcards to the music quiz Derby, Leicester, Lincoln or Nottingham, whichever is closest to you. +Postcards to be here by Tuesday of next week. +Now let's take some calls and don't forget our feature at three thirty, our all important feature, I think it's the most important of the week don't you? +Where are you now, the missing persons feature. +Finding long lost friends, relatives and neighbours throughout the East Midlands. +I think that's pretty important actually. +Erm seems to be. +Anyway, give us a ring on if you want to go on where are you now, if you've lost touch with someone we'll try and find 'em, especially if they're in the East Midlands. +And you can give us a ring on that number if you'd like to have a chat on the air this afternoon about anything at all. +Now we don't do wanted items or giveaways or anything like that, you know we don't do that on the programme, that's for other programmes. +So wanted a port er wanted a portable manual typewriter wanted in the Grantham area, lady is willing to pay, phone . +Wanted portable manual typewriter, wanted in Grantham, willing to pay, phone ,. +If you don't get these numbers you can always ring us on which is our administration number. +That sound posher than saying it's the phone-in number. +Here's a giveaway, er or no wait a minute, it isn't a giveaway cos they want a donation for children in need. +It's a voucher with a three day mini-cruise for two people sharing from Harwich to Hamburg or Harwich to Esbjerg to be used weekdays, valid until the twentieth of December and it's worth a hundred and sixty quid. +Meals not included. +Anyway if you wanna give a donation to children in need for that, dial . +I'll read it again cos it's quite complex innit? +It's got me puzzled anyway. +Erm a donation for children in need asked. +This is a voucher worth a hundred and sixty pounds with for a three day mini-cruise for two people sharing from Harwich to Hamburg or Harwich to Esbjerg to be used weekdays, until the twentieth of December. +If you're interested, meals are not included, but if you're interested dial . +Now we won't do any more of those. +. At School in Lane Derby, there is cable-laying going on in Street, Lane and Street. +This is causing traffic buildup and warning to parents when picking up children, be very careful. +So if you're picking up children from the Primary School in Lane Derby, there's cable-laying going on in Street, Lane and Street. +This is causing traffic buildup so it's a warning, be careful. +Erm I've had a lovely letter from from George. +And George is erm the district governor for Rotary, for the Alfreton area. +And the thing is they're doing a huge charity dance, the Rotary Club of Alfreton, on Friday this week, the twelfth. +Eight P M till midnight, food available, late bar er there's the big band sound of the Alfreton dance orchestra and special guest is Phil , the resident organist a the Tower Ballroom Blackpool. +Now the tickets are four quid each, you can get 'em on the door, but if you'd like two tickets, phone us on , we'll send 'em by first class post, we need your postcode, give us a ring now, if you'd like two tickets for the grand charity dance, modern, old-time and sequence featuring Phil , resident organist at the Tower Ballroom Blackpool. +And the big band sound of the Alfreton dance orchestra, it's all happening at the Leisure Centre Alfreton this Friday, eight till twelve, tickets are four quid, you can get 'em on the door, all organized by Rotary. +But call us if you'd like two tickets. +. Una of Mansfield. +H hello. +Hello. +Hello. +Hello. +Is that Dennis? +Yes hello. +Hello Dennis, my name's Una . +Yes. +Now I work as a care assistant in a nursing home at Bilsthorpe, nursing home. +Th Bilsthorpe near Mansfield? +Yes. +Yes. +And we are desperate to have a piano. +Why? +Well we do lots of activities with our residents and they love sing- alongs but unfortunately we haven't our own piano. +Have you never had one? +No. +Well yo they sa you kn what they say? +What you've never had you'll never miss. +But we are missing it. +Are you? +We've got a nurse, er a trained nurse, er she does play the piano and she's quite willing to play for us if only we can get a piano donated. +Well I mean you see +Erm +lo I've got this big problem really about people like you coming on asking for pianos. +Very often +What's the matter? +Why? +Who's tickling you? +Nobody. +Oh. +It sounds like you wish they were. +Mm. +No I've got this big problem you see because very often pianos are at the centre of orgies. +Now if you have an orgy there I could get the blame for this. +Oh. +Do you have many orgies there? +Well +Don't put it to the customers, don't put it to your clients cos they'll say we want one. +Well th they might well do. +Yes. +But you know I mean our oldest resident is a hundred and two. +Makes no difference love. +You know so he h +Never, never +might well enjoy a good rubdown and a massage. +I beg your pardon? +But I d I'm not quite sure if orgy . +Oh hang on hang on. +Oh oh my hair's standing up at the back of my neck. +I only y well you see the Romans did have a word you know they had a phrase, have you heard about that Roman phrase? +No I've not +You're never +I'm sure you'll tell me. +You're never too old for an orgy. +Now +Oh. +They had that as a phrase, that was a phrase in Roman times. +Mm. +And they should know. +Oh. +So I'm a bit worried ab cos pianos can you know i th they sort of, it's the it's the constant beat of the piano. +Right. +It can +it can sort of engender orgies. +Yeah. +Ah but you don't want an orgy there do you? +Oh I don't know +Oh +I could ask. +think of the local, think of the and what it would say if you had an orgy. +Oh +Well I I bet we'd make front page wouldn't we? +You would make front page of the . +Yeah we would. +You would indeed. +Yeah yeah. +I don't mean +orgy love, are you sure you want a piano? +Yes we definitely ne need a piano. +Now the all important thing about a piano is, apart from the fact that it t can be at the centre of an orgy, the important thing is that are you able to collect it? +Well yes we could. +Cos you know it takes t at least eighteen strong men or twenty four weak women? +You know that ? +Erm well I think you'd have to make do with twenty four strong care assistants. +Okay alright then. +Well we'll try eh? +Oh that would lovely because +And you +our party's we've arranged our Christmas party for our residents for the nineteenth of +This is before you've got the +December. +this is before you've got the piano. +Well we're still having a party anyway, but a piano would be a a big help. +If someone, some nice kind person would donate one for us. +Alright. +It would be great. +From anywhere? +From anywhere. +From anywhere alright +Anywhere. +we'll see if we can get you a piano and if +Okay. +anybody calls we'll give you a ring. +Yeah. +Alright love? +Okay then . +. +Thank you very much. +Eh listen you said your oldest is er a hundred and two? +Yes Mr our Albert. +How lovely. +Yes he's a hundred and two and he's lovely. +What about your youngest? +Our youngest? +Well I think our youngest ooh well into their sixties. +Are they? +Yeah. +And we we do try to keep them busy and we have monthly parties and erm +Parties? +occupa oh yes +I told ya. +oh yes +You're halfway there alre you're halfway there already. +Yes +You're halfway there. +Ooh. +Do you want to buy some raffle tickets Dennis? +What for the next orgy? +No. +yes if you like. +Ooh dear, I knew we shouldn't have done this. +Pound for five. +Pound for five? +Yeah we'll let you have ten pounds' worth. +. +Yeah. +That's very generous. +Very generous, I haven't had such a good offer for a long time. +How long have you been there at the nursing home? +I've been there six months now. +Have you? +Yeah. +Enjoy it? +I love it. +What did you do before? +Well I've done a bit of all sorts rea Mainly I looked after my dad while he was ill. +Yeah. +Erm but then I lost my dad so +Yeah +I went to do what I thought I could do the best. +Yeah. +Which was look after everybody else. +And you enjoy it? +I love it yes. +So who's gonna to look after you? +Me? +Yeah. +Well I've got two strong daughters so I suppose they'll hold me up when I'm when I'm you know sort of decrepit and ready. +Oh you're gonna be decrepit and ready are you ? +some days I feel it now Dennis . +Probably, probably +before probably at the Christmas party. +Ye well yes we'll be pretty tired because it's a full day. +Mm. +It's two thirty till six, everything going on +So listen +for the children that come and everything. +what's what's happening at the nursing home on Christmas Day, do you know yet? +Well we're not quite sure yet. +We we've sort of planned things for every day, for the week leading up to Christmas +Yeah. +erm it's just +It sounds like everybody's gonna be exhausted at your place. +Well it's good fun, you'll have to join us, you'll have to come through and have a look. +I see whereabouts of Hilda , last heard of in nineteen sixty nine, used to keep used to keep erm newsagent's shop in Ravenshead. +A gentleman in Birmingham would like to make contact with an ex-member of the R A F who he served with, his name is Dennis , and it was known that he lived in West Bridgeford Nottingham. +So whatever happened to Dennis of West Bridgeford Nottingham? +Ex R A F. Call us on please. +A listener would like to hear from any ex-pupils of School Worksop who were in the fifth year between nineteen sixty seven and nineteen sixty eight, to join in a celebration marking the success of one its pupils. +Alright? +Any ex-pupils of School Worksop, who were in the fifth year between nineteen sixty seven and nineteen sixty eight, to join in a celebration marking the success of one its pupils. +I wonder what they've done? +And we'd like to find Paddy who served in the R A F police unit at R A F Hunnington in Suffolk during nineteen fifty eight to nineteen sixty. +Paddy , he's of Irish descent, he lives in the Newark area and if it's h found, if he's found it's hoped that Paddy can be included in a reunion. +Paddy who lived in the Newark area. +We're looking for Sandra who lived in the village of Headon near Retford. +She used to work in a wool shop in Retford called Wool Shop. +Sandra had a brother called Rodney and a sister named Sharon . +It's believed that Sandra moved to either Newark or Leicester. +Anybody know Sandra ? +Came from Headon near Retford, worked in a wool shop in Retford called Wool Shop and Sandra had a brother called Rodney and a sister named Sharon . +Sandra could have moved to either Newark or Leicester. +Call us if you know her,. +Now we're looking for Debbie and Tony. +Dominic would like to get in touch with a couple he met on holiday in August at Innerlaken in Switzerland, who come from Derby. +They're Debbie and Tony of Derby. +Debbie and Tony. +But unfortunately their surname cannot be remembered. +Debbie who's blond, thirty eight years old, has two children a boy and a girl, works with the deaf in Derby. +Tony er his mother lives with them. +The couple Debbie and Tony o drove a blue Sierra and during the holiday it was their anniversary and Debbie's birthday. +So anybody know of the whereabouts of Debbie and Tony who live we think where was it? +In the Derby area? +In the Derby area. +Call us please. +Now let's go to the phones. +On the line from Calverton we've got Grenville . +Who're you looking for Grenville? +Hello Dennis. +Er I'll try and take my time, I stammer a bit Dennis a you know. +Er I'm l +That's okay. +I'm look looki looking for Hi Hilda . +Hilda ? +Is that is that her maiden name? +That's her maiden name, well it's abo f about forty nine fifty years ago since I've seen her. +And where did she live? +Well she li liv on Estate, er on Estate,. +Nottingham? +Avenue I think it was . +Yeah. +Wha what work did she do? +Well she worked at Brewery I think she did labelling you know in in department . +Do you know if she got married? +N no I don er it's quite a long st we it's quite a long story . +Well she go Hilda got a baby boy about eighteen month old when I knew her like you know, and er she lived by I think it was I think it was you know and er what happened to her I be I think she had to go in a home or er you see and er baby boy was adopted like, the baby boy that's about all I know about her that's about all. +alright, let's try for Hilda . +And Hilda was her maiden name, last seen forty nine years ago, she lived on Estate,, Nottingham and she worked as a labeller in the bottle department of Brewery. +Hilda . +That's right. +We'll try and find her. +If we do Granville, we'll give you a call. +thanks very much Dennis. +Thank you. +Okay Dennis thank you +Bye bye. +Thank you very much. +if you know the whereabouts of Hilda . +We have found, one of the letters. +We've found Sandra er wh who was in Retford at the Wool Shop, we've found Sandra . +Angela of Mapperley. +Who're you looking for? +Hello. +Angela . +Angela of Mapperley. +Hello Angela . +No Angela ? +No? +Right go onto the next customer. +Roy of . +Roy . +Roy . +Hello Roy . +No Roy . +Oh dear. +I wonder if anything's happened to our telephones? +Er nobody on at all. +Mm Kathleen Kathleen from Bath. +Kathleen. +Yes. +Who are you looking for? +I'm looking for my cousin. +Tell me her name. +Her name is Joyce, her christian name, and her maiden name was . +Do you know did she get married? +Well I presume she did. +How long is it since you saw her? +Oh it must be fifty years since I've seen her. +And where did she live? +She lived in Ward End in Birmingham. +But she is now in the Leicester area. +Erm some ab eight weeks ago she was in Cheltenham where I used to live, trying to find me. +And the person she contacted didn't know my address. +So we're sort of both playing two sides against the middle. +Er i she was in the Cheltenh Do you know what she does for a living? +I have a feeling, well I should think she's probably retired. +I should think she was born about nineteen thirty. +Erm I think she was a teacher, she's got a brother Jim who was a housemaster at School in Suffolk, last I heard of him, I saw him mm probably in the nineteen f fifties I should think. +So it's Joyce , that's her maiden name, last seen fifty years ago, used to live in Birmingham but now lives in Leicester +Yes. +and she was a teacher. +I think . +Joyce and she's got a brother Jim . +Yeah. +Alright. +Anybody calls we'll ring you. +Okay lovely. +Thank you Kathleen. +Okay bye . +Bye. +i you know the whereabouts of Joyce . +That's her maiden name, she may have got married and changed that name of course, she was a teacher, lived in the Leicester area. +Now I think we can try, is it Angela ? +Or Roy ? +Ida of Mansfield. +Mark +Mark Markfield sorry. +Ida. +Yes. +Who're you looking for? +I'm looking for a school friend, her name is Mary . +Is that her maiden name? +Yes. +Er did she get married? +I don't know. +Last seen when? +I've never seen her since we left school about nineteen forty eight. +Where did she live? +She lived in er Road, Oadby. +Er what does she do for a living? +I don't know. +Can't tell ya. +Went to School together. +You know like school friends +Mm. +but I haven't seen her since we left school in nineteen forty eight. +Can you give us any more information? +Well I did hear, I don't know if it w if it's true, that she was er what you call a lollipop lady. +Whereabouts? +In Oadby. +That a that's all I know. +recently? +Yes I think so. +So Mary but that's her maiden name, +Yes. +it's nineteen forty eight, so she may well have married and changed her name. +That's right. +Lived on Road, Oadby +and may have been a lady a lollipop lady in the Oadby area. +Yes,she used to live with her mum and dad and she ha I know she had a sister but I don't know if her sister name was Betty. +But where she used to live the houses have been pulled down ooh a few years ago and it's all shops now. +Alright, we'll try and find Mary for you and if we do we'll give you a call Ida. +Yes thank you very much . +Thanks love bye. +Bye bye. +, the number to ring if you know the whereabouts of Mi Mary , her maiden name, last seen in nineteen forty eight, she may have married and changed her name. +May have been a lollipop lady in Oadby. +Call us if you know anything, please. +Sybil of Northampton. +Yes. +Who're you looking for? +I'm looking for my two cousins. +Names? +Names, Margaret and Joan, their si single name was but +Do you know +I don't know their married names. +And did they both get married? +Yes they both got married. +Er last seen how long ago? +Oh about fifty years ago. +Living where? +In South Wigston Leicestershire. +Do you know what jobs Margaret and Joan had? +No. +Margaret was in the Air Force for some years but I couldn't say what they did for work. +So you've no idea where they could be now? +No idea. +Er they've always lived in South Wigston, all their life. +So Margaret and Joan +That's their +cousins and that's their maiden names , +that's their maiden name. +last seen fifty years ago, lived in South Wigston +Yes. +and Margaret was in the R A F during the war, +Yes. +and Margaret and Joan are both married so they've both changed their names. +Yes. +Did they have any brothers? +No. +Alright. +We'll try and find Margaret and Joan , if we do we'll give you a ring. +Thank you very much indeed. +Thanks bye . +Thank you, bye . +Bye Sybil. +the number to ring there. +Reg of Newark, who are you looking +Dennis +who are you looking for? +Er the descendants of John and Jane . +They lived er at the turn of the century or just before in the Blankley Bath area which is round Methringham. +The family w was made up of sons John, Thomas, William and Joseph and the girls were Mary and Harriet. +Harriet married a William who was a gamekeeper. +we're talking about around the turn of the century ? +Century yes. +Er John actually of the John and Jane, he died in nineteen O three aged seventy six, he was buried at . +Erm, mm. +So y descendants of John and Jane ? +Yes. +Who lived at Blankley Bath near Methringham? +That's right. +They had how many children? +They had four boys, John, Thomas, William and Joseph and two girls, Mary and Harriet. +Harriet married er William who was a gamekeeper. +Are you in touch with any of them? +Er not from that side of the family, no. +Alright, well we'll try and get you some information and if we do we'll give you a ring. +Well that's very kind of you. +Thank you . +Thank you Reg. +Goodbye. +So descendants of John and Jane , er John Wilson died in nineteen hundred and three, at age seventy six, so we're talking about the turn of the century. +They lived at Blankley Bath near Methringham and they had six children, John, Thomas, William, Joseph, Mary and Harriet . +Harriet married William a gamekeeper. +And there the information ends, can you help fill in some details with John and Jane who lived at Blankley Bath near Methringham, turn of the century? +Give us a call please. +Christine of . +Hello. +Who are you looking for? +I'm looking for a work friend. +Erm her name was Freddy, so I presume her name was Frederica and we +worked in the lace market in nineteen sixty five +mhm +at a place called . +Where did Freddy live? +I think maybe erm Carlton way. +I'm not sure. +Did was she married? +No she was we were just teenagers, we were seventeen then. +You don't know if Freddy got married? +No. +But she had long red hair and she was just a work friend. +So Freddy +Yeah. +er she was last seen nineteen sixty five working in the lace market in Nottingham at +Yeah. +and she had long red hair. +Yes and she she had er a tartan skirt and she swapped it with me for a an Indian blue dress. +Alright we'll try and find Freddy for you. +It's a bit er you know +Yeah +bit sparse in information but we'll try +Yes. +But my name was Christine then. +Christine . +Yeah. +Alright we'll try and find Freddy. +Okay. +Thank you. +Bye. +So we're looking for ah we've found Mary , last seen in nineteen forty eight at Oadby. +We've found Mary . +Now there is a difficult one. +We're looking for Freddy, and that's all we've got. +Freddy, young lady, last seen nineteen sixty five working in the lace market in Nottingham at , think she lived nearby at Carlton, Nottingham and had long red hair did Freddy. +Where are you now? the number to ring. +Betty of Evington. +Who are you looking for? +Hello. +I'm looking for a friend of mine Hazel was her maiden name. +You know her er married name? +And she married er a man named , Mr , I c don't know his christian name, and he was a warder at the Leicester prison. +And then he was called up er in the Air Force in nineteen forty. +She had a baby we she was expecting a baby and we called it P J,anyw and she said it was going to be Peter John and th anyway when it arrived it was a Pamela Jane . +Now I know she lives in the Nottingham area now although she's been widowed quite a few years. +And I would like to get in touch with her again. +So Mrs Hazel last seen when ? +Mrs Hazel yes. +Last seen when? +Er in nineteen forty. +And where did she actually live then? +She lived on Road South. +Leicester? +Leicester. +Mhm. +And you think she's in Nottingham now? +Yes I heard she'd gone to the Nottingham area. +Where did she li work? +Pardon? +Where did she work? +She worked at on the North Bridge in Leicester . +In in Leicester. +Do you know how many children she's got? +Well I understood she had two. +Mm. +And one of one them +I know she had one. +One of 'em is Pamela Jane. +Well sh yes. +er . +Okay, we're looking for Mrs Hazel . +Yes. +Last seen in the last war, nineteen forty, she lived on the Road South in +South +Leicester. +Yes. +And her husband was a warder at Leicester prison but he's died. +Yes. +And Hazel worked at on +Yes. +the North Bridge +Yes. +and she's got some children including Pamela Jane. +Yes. +Pa Mrs Hazel ? +Yes. +We'll try and find her and we'll ring you if +Thank you very much. +we do. +Thank you. +Thank you Betty. +Bye bye. +Mrs Hazel . +Er was at Leicester, might now live in Nottingham. +Call us please if you know her whereabouts. +Hazel of South. +Hello. +B Boston. +Hello. +Hazel who are you looking for? +Er Ken . +Ken , last seen when? +Nineteen eighty two. +And where did he live then? +In the Sleaford area. +What did he work for a living? +Er senior nursing officer at Hospital Holbeach which of course is now closed. +Was Kenneth married? +Er he was but er his wife is deceased erm but I understand he has remarried recently. +And has he any children? +Er yes, one son Ian Mark and Ian will be about twenty. +Er you think Kenneth will now be retired? +Yes he has retired. +So Kenneth , last seen nineteen eighty two, lived at the Sleaford area, a retired nursing senior officer at Hospital Holbeach, he's married he's remarried er and he's got a son Ian Mark . +Yes. +We'll try and find him, if we do, give you a ring. +Thank you very much. +Thanks Hazel. +Thank you, bye. +N the number to ring if you can help Hazel out. +Hazel of er Boston looking for Kenneth . +Kenneth , last seen nineteen eighty two, lived in the Sleaford area, a retired senior nursing officer at Hospital Holbeach, er m may have married for a second time, Kenneth he's got a son Ian Mark . +Give us a call if you know him, please. +Malcolm of Mansfield Woodhouse. +Hello Dennis. +Who are you looking for? +Well I'm looking for a very good friend of mine er who I served in the army with called Tony . +Last seen when? +Well it would be round nineteen seventy three seventy four. +And where did he live at that time? +Er he was from Gedling but we lived together in the army barracks at that particular time. +What mob were you in? +Er the King's Troop, Royal Horse Artillery. +Oh them? +Yes. +Ah. +What rank were you? +Sorry? +I was a gunner, I'd only been in er +Oh I see. +a couple of years +Wha er Tony er did he have any brothers or sisters? +Well to be quite honest I can't honestly remember. +I was the best man at his wedding. +Ah he got married? +Yes he did and it was in Gedling I believe. +I what was his wife's name? +Jean. +But I can't remember the second name. +Do you know if they had any children? +Not at that time, they didn't no. +Do you know if er what er Tony er civilian occupation was? +No I haven't a clue. +I don't know if he left the King's Troop and went into the First er Regiment Royal Artillery, but erm I went to Germany and of course we just lost contact. +So it's Tony , last +Tony +last seen nineteen seventy three seventy four, lived in Gedling Nottingham got +Yeah. +married to Jean, Jean , +Yeah. +er and he was in the King's Troop Royal Horse Artillery +Yeah +he could've er got out of that, but he lived in Gedling Nottingham. +Yes he did yeah. +Now one of the names which would come straight to his head was my nickname which was Schultz. +Yes. +But Tony isn't listening. +No that's right . +He he's not listening at the moment. +But a friend of his is. +And that's why we need as much information about Tony so that his friend will recognize him, ring through and then you'll be in touch him. +Yeah. +But Tony isn't listening to this programme at this moment. +Right. +Okay? +But er we'll try and get him Malcolm and if we do, we'll give you a call. +How long is it since you were called Schultz? +Er well when I left in nineteen seventy six. +It finished? +Sorry? +It finished then that nickname? +Yes. +Yeah always does. +Alright Malc we'll we'll give you a ring if we find Tony . +Lovely. +Bye. +Thank you very much, bye. +Tony . +A Oh , are you there, Malcolm? +Come back to me Malcolm. +Come back to me Malcolm. +Hello. +We've found him. +You haven't. +We have. +As quick as that? +Yeah. +He's gonna ring you back straight away. +Lovely. +Put your phone down and he's gonna ring you back. +Thanks very much. +Bye. +That's a good 'un innit? +Found him, straight away, Tony . +Er last seen in the King's Troop Royal Artillery, Royal Horse Artillery, came from Gedling Nottingham. +Fred of . +Hello Dennis. +Who are you looking for? +I'm looking for my cousin, a Dolly . +She used to live at Swindon, er sorry Swinford. +Swinford Leicester? +Leicestershire yes. +Yeah. +Now +Was she is that her maiden name? +Er yes, she was only a young girl when I first kne when I +How mu how long is it how long is it? +Er just before the war when I saw her last. +So nineteen thirties? +Er thirty nine, thirty eight thirty nine. +Nineteen thirty nine, right . +Dolly , er was Dolly her real name? +Er I'm not certain, Dorothy I think it was but she +Oh +always used to be known as Dolly. +Dolly +Yeah. +and that was her maiden name? +Do you know if she got married? +I've no ideas. +Wh where did she live? +She us +Swinford Leicester. +Swinford in Leicestershire, yes. +Do you know what she did for a living? +No she was still at school. +Oh. +Did +Er +she have any brothers or sisters? +Er no. +No er er her dad used to work at at Rugby, and I er saw him ooh nineteen forty seven I think. +Just after the war. +Yeah. +Er he used to work at at Ru at er Rugby. +So Dolly +Yeah. +that's her maiden name, Dolly +Yeah. +lived at Swinford Leicester, +Yes. +her father worked at er at Rugby. +Yes. +And I've got an idea, er something keeps on cropping up in my mind whether she moved there or not I don't know, but er those t two villages keep on recurring in my +Alright alright. +Well we'll try and find Dolly for you. +Yes right. +Okay Fred. +Okay Dennis. +Bye. +Bye. +the number to ring if you know the whereabouts of Dolly , that's her maiden name, last seen nineteen thirty nine, lived at Swinford Leicester, maybe in a village n in Leicester near Swinsford now. +Dolly , that's her maiden name, she may have married and changed her mind. +Would Mrs Joan of Drive, Alveston Derby replace your receiver from your daughter, please. +Mrs Jo Mrs Jan . +Mrs Jan , Drive, Alveston Derby please replace your receiver from your daughter. +Now who've we got? +We got Angela of Mapperley. +Angela. +Hello. +Who are you looking for? +Erm Kitty . +Kitty . +Last seen when? +Erm nineteen eighty four. +Where did she live then? +Er Court Green, Nottingham. +Yeah. +What did Kitty do for a living? +I don't know. +Er was she married? +No. +Not married? +No. +Any children? +Yes. +Er and Kitty . +Can you give us any more information at all? +No that's all I know. +No. +Kitty 's her maiden name? +Yes. +Kitty , last seen nineteen eighty four and Kitty lived at Court,Green, Nottingham. +Yes. +How old will she be roughly? +Er late fifties. +Late fifties. +Yes. +Kitty in her late fifties, Kitty who lived at Court,Green, Nottingham. +And that's all we got innit? +Yes it is. +Alright. +Okay? +Anybody calls we'll ring you Angela +Thank you. +Bye love. +Bye. +Kitty . +Where are you now? the number to ring. +Roy of Old Clipston. +Who are you looking for? +Hello Dennis, hey I you got through er last time, few minutes ago cut me off. +Well no I +the wrong button? +I didn't. +No what happened then? +Anyway come on we haven't got much time. +Aye. +Er Ernest . +Ernest . +He and I we we worked together on the electrical staff at colliery. +Nineteen or late thirties +Is that when you last saw him? +No the early thirties. +You saw him in the early thirties? +Yes that was the last time. +Right and where did +Ernest live? +He used to live er Road area at Mansfield. +Yeah. +Somewhere up Road. +Was he married? +I don't know. +He had a motorcycle, a lovely . +But you don't know if he was married? +I don't know, I would imagine he would be. +Er you never met his wife? +Has he got +No. +any children? +No you don't know. +I don't know, don't know Dennis. +Any brothers or sisters? +Couldn't tell you. +I don't think he had but I'm not certain about that, I don't think so +So it's er +he never spoke of them. +Ernest +Ernest +who worked at +er he worked at Colliery? +Yes ha he and I were both on the electrical staff, late twenties, early thirties. +And that's all the information? +That's all I've got. +Can I give my telephone number? +Mm, yes a bit thin on information though Roy. +Pardon? +A bit thin on information . +I know it is. +We you see we were both single at that time. +Alright. +So Ernest +Yes. +who lived in Road, Mansfield, +In that area. +nineteen thirty nine, he worked at Colliery and he had a motorcycle. +Yes. +What's your phone number? +Ring you on , thank you Roy. +Ah thanks a lot Dennis. +Bye. +Bye. +Nottingham er the number to ring, but there if you know the whereabouts of Ernest who was at Road, Mansfield, nineteen thirty nine, give a ring on . +We've found Margaret and John from fifty years ago, who lived in Wigston. +The cous cousins Margaret and Joan have been found and I told you we found Tony while we were still on with Malcolm who was looking for him. +We that's where are you now, the number to ring if you know the whereabouts of anyone we were looking for. +We go to the news with the Munich Philharmonic Orchestra Pop Section and money, money, money. +You're listening to the county's favourite radio station, B B C Radio Nottingham, it's four o'clock. +Radio Nottingham News with Andy . +Three coal mines in Yorkshire which employ fifteen hundred people between them are to have their futures reviewed with the intention of closing them down. +says a fall in coal consumption at power stations means their future is very bleak. +Two of the mines, and are operating at a loss. +The third produces coal cheaply but most of its output is being stockpiled. +The National Union of Mineworkers says it had expected the news but Trevor of the pit deputies' union NACODS had this message for miners. +It does not matter what says here today, you have a job at this moment in time, I'm asking them to stay in the pits and fight for the right to work those pits. +They're profitable pits and they're well worth keeping open. +A Nottingham police inspector has been telling an inquest about the last time he saw his teenage daughter alive. +The body of nineteen year old secretary Helen was found in the grounds of a derelict house on Road in Sherwood last Wednesday. +She'd died from multiple stab wounds to the chest. +Rob reports. +Police inspector Alex from Mapperley said he last saw Helen at bedtime on the second of November. +When she failed to return from work the next day he called the police. +And colleagues told him a body matching his daughter's description had already been found. +The Nottinghamshire coroner Dr Nigel adjourned the inquest pending the outcome of criminal proceedings. +Twenty eight year old Sean from Arnold has appeared before Nottingham magistrates charged with murder, and has been remanded in custody. +The jury at the James murder trial has heard evidence from a Home Office pathologist about the injuries that led to James's death. +Two eleven year old boys deny abduction and murder. +Adam reports. +The Home Office pathologist, Dr Alan spoke of forty two injuries to James's body. +He said they were consistent with a series of heavy blows by heavy objects and kicks. +Earlier the court had been shown a quantity of bricks and stones some of which were said to be bloodstained, and a heavy iron bar. +All had been found at the scene of the crime. +The courtroom fell silent as Dr gave his evidence. +It was shocking testimony and the jury, people in the public gallery and reporters were clearly shaken. +The case continues. +Rescue workers who helped in the Bilsthorpe disaster have been presented with a plaque bought by the widow of one of the men who died. +Peter was crushed in the rockfall at the colliery on August the eighteenth. +Around five hundred pounds was given to his wife Pam at his funeral. +She's used some of that money to buy plaques for the three mine rescue teams who helped in the operation. +Superintendent Jim from Mansfield mines rescue service says it's a touching gesture. +It's what the job's all about er and they are professionals and this is the work they're trained for. +But little things like this mean a an awful lot to them. +Erm it's what it's all about basically. +Cos presumably they don't expect anything like this, they're just doing their work. +They don't. +And that's what makes it even nicer because er it's recognition from outside of of , the people that pay their wages, of the job they're doing and er they're very grateful for it. +The editor of the who published photographs of the Princess of Wales exercising at a gym has described himself and the man who took the photographs as ratbags. +David was speaking to an Australian radio station shortly before lawyers acting for the Princess issued writs against and the gym owner. +I think it was a particularly sneaky trick frankly. +Er an and the the bloke who did it erm has got to go down as one of the ratbags of the year. +I don't exclude myself from myself, but I I I'd give him a nine and I I'd come in at a seven I think. +Workers at one of main car plants, Ellesmere Port in Cheshire, have voted narrowly in favour of an all out strike over pay. +A union spokesman said a two and a half per cent pay offer failed to reflect the record profits made by and the huge improvements in productivity at the plant. +Contempt writs have been served against the Home Secretary and his predecessor Kenneth Clarke for trying to deport the legal guardian of six Nottingham children who were prohibited from leaving the country. +has been looking after her younger brothers and sisters since they were made wards of court when their parents were sent back to India. +And police in Jersey are examining what they believe may be the remains of Nicholas and Elizabeth who are believed to have been murdered on the island six years ago. +The couple's sons, Roderick and Mark have been accused of their murders. +Yesterday Roderick, a former army officer who was flown back to Jersey at the weekend after fighting extradition from Gibraltar, went with police to an area where it's thought the bodies had been buried. +And the weather, tonight starting cloudy, becoming drier later on tomorrow. +Radio Nottingham news, it's five past four. +Great Shirley Bassey and Kiss Me Honey Honey Kiss Me. +Did you know that she started her career in ? +At the Olympia, she appeared at the Olympia. +In er in variety. +Many many years ago did Shirley Bassey. +Told me about it once she did. +Never been on the programme though. +We carry on through till four thirty with the calls and if you'd like to take part in our phone-in, the number to ring is . +At four thirty John's here. +Oh yes my old beauty, it's all getting back to normal now. +About as normal as could be with me. +My name's John and I'm here with the teatime show this afternoon, just after Dennis, at half past four. +And Paul is gonna be on. +No relation and it's not the fella who's been to Memphis Tennessee to see Graceland either. +He's the chief executive of the one of the biggest advertising agencies in the country, he's coming in to talk about the thirty something phenomena here in the nineties now. +And also joining us poet Michael with a bit of poetry as well. +It's all to come on the teatime show this afternoon. +Cor he's in the mood int he. +John with teatime. +Invitation you can't refuse there. +That's at four thirty on. +Calls through till then if you'd like to have a chat. +Martin of Carlton. +Hello. +Hello. +Yes Martin. +Yeah. +Er what is right erm it's er like a special word like for erm your okay? +Er what it is, I'm a music writer right? +Yeah. +Okay and erm when Dennis was on okay about a week ago +Mm. +right erm he mentioned something about erm my friend Paul, okay he had a conversation about when my dog goes in my garden an and he does a doggy-do. +Yeah. +Okay. +Now apparently what happened is I went up to him and said look I might have to do something with it. +So I did actually, I t actually turned it into a ro er song you see. +You've turned +I turn the doggy-do song about the dog +Yeah. +Into a song. +You've turned doggy-do into a song? +That's right, I've actually erm what it is, I write music okay? +Using the Amiga Five Hundred okay, er stripped it down, I sampled it and I actually made a song, a complete song, and it's finished okay? +Also I done a a twelve inch version +Based on the call that we had onto the programme? +Yes, about the doggy-do. +Remember, my dog goes in your garden. +Yeah. +I did a a complete song and it's finished, right and I was thinking of actually erm seeing my mate in London who'd get it cut on vinyl record. +And make a commercial record? +Yeah. +So I do I get a percentage? +Of course. +If you er give me your permission. +We Well can you sing it to us? +Er well I can't really sing it to you, cos it's on tape at the moment. +But it's erm the only way to do it is erm to bring the tape in to your erm into Nottingham station itself, you know the er radio station . +We well can't you sort of give us an idea of what it's about, the words and things you know and +It's erm it's about well you could +There's no rude words in it are there? +Oh no no no. +No there's no rude words in it at all. +I mean do you think it'll be a top ten hit? +I dunno it might be. +It's er it's funny. +It's very very funny because I actually laughed about it when I listened to it on tape first of all and I felt well maybe +And have you, who's sung it, you? +No it's er see see the thing it's the song right. +It's like talking. +You're talking and Paul's talking and I actually did something with it, I actually turned it into a song. +With my erm instrument playing at the background. +Really? +Yes, its a bit like rapping yeah. +We whose voice is it? +Well there's Dennis's voice and Paul's voice. +Is it? +Yes. +And ha you got a recording of it there? +No. +Can we not hear a little bit of it now? +Well no because what I did I actually gave a copy to er to Paul okay, this is er ja erm . +Yeah. +Okay, now it's got two versions, it's got the first version which is a short version okay? +Yeah. +It's er the title song is er and the second version which is a remix version which I've done, which I was working on last night. +Now the song took five hours to do +Yeah. +Okay a and erm +Bu but I mean if you use if you use the voices that you heard,i it wasn't in rhyme or anything. +I know but it's the way I did it. +And y y you will understand as soon as you hear it. +It's it's it's really unbelievable. +Is it? +Yeah, incredible cos a lot of people said already, like they've heard it and they think it's amazing. +You know. +And no only that it's you've got w one or the Twelve Hundred , it's four o'clock. +theWh Wh what's the Amiga Five Hundred? +It's the erm oh what it is right it's a computer. +P C +personal computer yeah. +A musical computer. +Well it's not just a music computer it's, everyone uses a +So what's what's your occupation Martin, are you a songwriter? +Erm well not as such as a songwriter, I mean I do that yes but I'm my occupation I'm a self-employed window cleaner. +but Martin you can't do a song about doggy-dos. +Can you? +Course you can. +I've done one. +so can I hear it? +You can hear it yeah, but the only way to hear it +Yeah. +is for me to bring it in. +Have you got it on a reel to reel tape? +Yes. +I'd like to hear it. +Yeah. +Now listen you got erm a have ya? +I don't know wha but I'm not technically minded, I don't know what we've got here . +Well erm a Walkman what people carry around? +I don't think we've got one of them. +Or or erm what they call those music things you know like erm it's got a cassette, tape cassette and a radio and you know people +What, hi-fi thing? +Yeah that's right and you put a tape in don't you? +Well I think yes I think we can play cassettes I think. +That's good because I'll bring you a copy in +Yes. +Okay now if you think it's good, funny +Mm, yeah. +okay, I'll contact my mate in London +Yeah. +okay and they'll get it cut onto vinyl. +And we could make a number one. +Yeah, who knows? +Because +Yeah. +its a and partly right it was done before. +But not the same thing what I'm doing you see. +Erm two guys it was in the Amiga format, two guys right +Yeah. +actually made it in the charts using two Amigas but I'm only using the one m one Amiga. +Mm. +Well this is all you know I I don't understand anything about computers and things. +And normally if I get near a computer it goes wrong. +Computers hate me. +Well sometimes they hate me too, you get a virus on it you know and it crashes doesn't it? +Does it? +I don't know, I don't know. +And I don't know anything technical at all I mean just, I just turn a knob here and open the microphone and that's it you know. +Yeah. +Alright well I'll like to hear it. +When you gonna bri when can you bring it in? +Well I can bring it in erm er let's see. +I can bring i in today if you wish. +Or that's too late +Well no I'm here till till five +Five o'clock? +Yeah. +Half past four to five you can bring it in. +I'd like to hear it. +Yeah alright. +I'll tell y what I'll I'll bring i about five o'clock. +Yeah okay. +And what I need to do I'll I'll catch a taxi at my place and I'd do a copy and then bring it in. +Er well I don't want you to go to any expense Martin, I mean +No I'm not going to expense, I can afford it I assure you. +Can you? +Yes. +Are you wealthy? +Wealthy, I wish I was. +Er I mean one maybe one day I will if if it makes a hit eh +That's right yeah and we could both be wealthy couldn't we? +Yeah be good that. +Alright Martin I'll see you later. +I'll see you later anyway. +I'll +Okay yeah +I'll ask the, when I go there I'll just say who I am and then +Yes. +we'll sort it out okay? +Okay . +Cheers. +Bye. +Could be interesting. +See me now in the top ten. +Iris of Stapleford. +Hello Dennis. +Yes Iris. +You've been talking about doggy-dos I'm gonna talk to you about my dog. +Oh yes. +Do you remember Christmas time. +Er I was t I told you about Victoria who was in the pantomime? +Oh is she the one that was with the er magician? +Yes. +It was erm er er was it an old English sheepdog ? +Old English sheepdog. +And he was with the magician and he made her disappear. +Yes that's right. +No he made her appear. +That's right. +Yes I remember. +Well she's just been in er Longeaton Operatic Society playing the dog in Annie for a week . +Really? +Yes +So she's star struck int she? +Yes she's fantastic. +Cos, how did the magician work out at the Theatre Royal in Nottingham in the pantomime last year? +How you mean how did it work out? +Well did it how many how many performances did you do? +She did thirty two. +Did she? +Yeah. +Never put a foot wrong? +No she was very good. +Have you been in touch with that magician since? +No we haven't actually, no. +I wonder what I wonder what's happened cos he's er he's from Leicester wasn't he? +Yeah, we kno I've forgotten now where he was playing as er we know where his summer season was but I can't just can't remember . +Er he was very good. +He was good. +Very good . +Ever so good. +Oh so you +Yeah. +what's your sheepdog called? +Victoria. +Victoria of course yes Victoria. +So she's just +Yeah, yeah +done Annie? +Annie for +the Longeaton er Operatic Society. +And was she good again? +Yeah. +Never put a foot wrong? +Well you know wha when I knew what she had to do, I thought well erm she had to walk on by herself to Annie. +That's right, it was an acting part wasn't it ? +Yes because er they'd found these stray dogs and she says I'll look after her and then she sang a song t to my dog. +Mm. +Then the policeman come on and said, is that your dog? +You know er or is it a stray? +And then later on the script she ha to say he had to say to her well, call her, you leave her and if she doesn't come to you that's not your dog and take her to the pound and have her put down. +Mm. +But of course we were you know crossing our fingers and she went to her every time. +Did she? +But actually I had her for half an hour to the commands and everything. +Yeah. +Cos she's obedience trained. +So when's your next starring role? +Well she's resting between +Oh resting. +Has she got an agent? +Wish she had. +Really do. +Yeah. +Is she is she a real Dulux old English sheepdog ? +She's a real Dulux she's beautiful +She really is? +Yes. +Is she? +Long coat and everything? +Long coat she looks lovely. +You don't take the coat off? +No. +I do think it's a pity when +No. +people take the coat off +No. +of an old English sheepdog. +Yes. +I hate to see that I must say . +Yeah. +Then she had to run across the stage on her own. +Did she? +Yeah. +And she did that, how many performances were you there? +Erm we did every night and twice on Saturday. +Did you? +Yeah. +And never put a foot wrong. +It was lovely absolutely marvellous . +Gotta be good. +How old is she now? +She's two. +Is she? +Two years of age. +Oh +But I belong to the Derby dog training club and also Sheila I go to training. +Oh yeah. +And we go to agility with her. +So she's really well behaved anyway ? +Oh she's yes she's lovely. +And it's all done by kindness you know. +Mm. +It's all done by . +And did they do good business at the er Longeaton +Yeah +Annie? +Yeah it was lovely. +Ah. +It was really nice . +Alright well tell us when she's next on. +Yes I will. +Alright love. +Right. +Bye. +Bye. +Hey Victoria really is a star int she? +Erm now we've got a oh a message, is anyone going to Albania or Bosnia or Rumania? +There's a a big bag of blankets and warm clothing needs to be taken from Nottingham. +Phone if you can help. +Anyone going to Albania or Bosnia or Rumania? +A big bag of blankets and warm clothing needs to be taken from Nottingham. +Phone if you can help. +. Robert of Mansfield Robert Hello Robert +Yes. +Yes there you are. +Er I've organized a children's Christmas party, it's called Christmas party. +Er is . +Mm. +Er tickets are a pound each. +It's on Sunday the fifth of December at Mansfield Leisure Centre. +And er we we're in need of er raffle prizes and things like that and if anyone wishes tickets they can er reach me on . +Now all the proceeds are going to Fiona appeal. +Yeah. +So it's a Christmas party +Yes. +on the fifth of December, Sunday the fifth of December at the Mansfield Leisure Centre, +Yeah. +pound to get in. +Yeah. +It's Christmas party, it's for children? +Yes. +Pound a ticket +Er and adults er adults er cos we're holding a Christmas raffle and + +Morning. +Morning. +There are some licensing applications Your Worships. +Application that, listed as number fifty three please Your Worships. +Mr of the Cross Keys. +At Ribchester Your Worships. +Mr at all? +Licensee of the Cross Keys Ribchester. +And you're making applications for an occasion licence for Saturday the twenty ninth of October to run a bar at Norbury village hall on behalf of the the village hall committee, is that right? +That's right Your Worships, yes. +And the hours you're asking for are seven thirty P M to eleven forty five P M? +That's right. +I think you did send this in intending it to be a postal application Mr ? +I did yes. +But er Your Worships the matter was adjourned by your colleagues until today because er Mr did indicate on the application form that er he would not be in fact operating the bar himself but that it would be somebody else. +So I think your colleagues wanted more information about that so +Yes. +Who will be operating the bar Mr ? +Well I erm er er Mr Roger . +Actually I'll be operating between the village hall and the Cross Keys and Mr Roger has the pub for the last sixteen years or so. +Well our concern is does this gentleman understand the licensing laws? +Oh yes. +Definitely. +I'll, I'll be going to the village hall but I might have to go back to the Cross Keys, that's why I put Roger , perhaps I put the wrong thing on you see? +I'll be in charge of the bar actually. +So physically you will be exercising some degree of supervision during the evening will you? +Oh yes, yes. +Will you be there er when it's time to close Mr ? +I will yes. +Oh yes definitely, that's right Your Worship yeah. +Then this application be granted. +Ah thank you very much. +Right thank you. +Thank you very much. +The application that's before Your Worships is a a temporary authority in respect of Kwiksave Supermarket. +Jacqueline is the applicant Your Worship. +Are you represented by a solicitor? +Alright so Could you take the oath please. +Hold the bible up in your right hand and read the words from that card. +I swear to almighty god that the evidence I shall give in this court shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth . +Yeah. +And tell the magistrates your full name and address could you? +Jacqueline +And what is your date of birth +Thirteenth of +sixty four. +And you're making the application for temporary authority to operate the licence in respect of premises known as Kwiksave Supermarket? +That's right. +At er is that right? +That's right yes. +Is the outgoing licensee present? +Pardon? +Is the outgoing licensee present? +No. +Why? +I don't know. +You don't know? +Well somebody's handed these documents +today. +Yeah. +And the present licence holder is Susan . +That's right. +But sir there is a letter simply saying er she consents to the er application but there's no indication as to why she's not here. +Is that lady down there from Kwiksave? +Yes. +She doesn't work for the company at all? +What's your role in Kwiksave? +Supervisor. +In this depot in Clitheroe? +That's right. +Are you there permanently? +All +Yeah. +day +Yes. +premises are opening? +Yes. +What er experience have you got in er the sale of intoxicating liquors Miss ? +Well I've worked for the past two year really +Where? +I used to work at and then +And how long have you been in these particular premises? +Er about a month. +Mr +Sir? +Well no, it's just that she said +And er Miss do you intend to apply for the transfer of this licence? +Yeah. +Has an application been submitted for that purpose? +Yes. +transfer +Oh +Well I'm not so sure this applicant knows very much about what's going on here anyway Your Worships. +It would appear to be most of this is Kwiksave Supermarket. +? +For all practical purposes at this stage sir she may appear to you to be a fit and proper person I've no doubt the Licensing Committee will want to know a lot more about the situation sir. +If I recall rightly I think that it's not that long ago that the licence was transferred to the present holder. +You are aware Miss that any persons working in that department have got to be of age? +Yes. +And you undertake that that will apply? +Yes. +And you are aware of the restrictions on drink for young people? +Yeah +And the sort of concern about that aspect? +Yes. +Well we're going to grant this protection order which is temporary permission to keep your premises open, but I must tell you that there will be a lot more investigation before the order is granted permanently and the transfer stands. +And we're ordering that the other person if possible attends +If she's not in the district that will be difficult but if it is possible if she's in the district we order that she attends at transfer sessions the outgoing licensee. +Have you got the licence for Miss ? +No +Well that it will not be effective until er you produce that licence to this court. +Erm I assume if that this er if the licensee has left those premises w she's physically left has she now? +Yeah. +Er when did she go? +She left the company then? +Mm. +I see. +Well I would have expected those premises not to be selling intoxicating liquors you've obviously not had a licence for a month. +That will also be er considered by the licensing committee at the next hearing. +You must produce that licence, otherwise it's not effective er Miss . +See as the licensee you have responsibilities. +It's all very well the company telling you as employee what to do, but you, you're the one who's going to be in difficulties if you don't comply with the licensing laws. +The whole application's not been very satisfactory +and the fact that the licence is not here puts you in, in, in difficulty. +We are aware now that you're operating without a licence and it's up to you to get that licence here as quickly as possible. +Er, she can go for now. +To deal with application listed number forty four Your Worships, please. +It's in respect of a temporary authority for the Edisford Bridge Inn Your Worships. +Your Worships please I'd like to make application on behalf of Mr James Henry for a protection order in respect of the Edisford Bridge Hotel. +Er Mr, Mr , Mr . +your full name is James Henry ? +Yes sir. +And you have resided for the last six months at the Railway Hotel and at er ? +Yes. +And are you this morning applying for the protection order in respect of the Edisford Bridge Hotel? +Yes. +Er would you, would you tell the Your Worships what experience you've had in the licence trade? +Er yes current position er at the moment I'm the licence training manager for brewery and I've held that position for five and a half years. +Er previous to that I held the licence at The Three Fishes at er for three years. +Er previous to that I held the licence for The Mason's Arms at for three years previous to that and before that I've been connected with the catering and licence trade from being fifteen. +And you're therefore quali qualified to have a justices licence length of time? +I +And are you applying to , are you proposing to apply for the permanent transfer of this licence? +Yes sir. +Thank you. +Er Mrs please. +Mrs , your full name is Margaret ? +Yes. +And are you the current licensee? +I am yes. +And do you support and consent to this application this morning? +I do yes. +That is the application Your Worships. +protection order be granted? +Worships please. +Excuse me a moment Your Worships while I write the out. +Case fifty seven please Your Worships, Robert James . +He is in the cells Your Worships take an order for him to be brought up. +There are apparently further charges to be put to him Your Worships. +A charge of theft and a charge of handling stolen property. +He's only charged with one offence of criminal deception at the moment. +Mr ? +Fifty five sir. +Fifty six. +Are you Robert James ? +Yes sir. +And what is your home address Mr ? +Is your date of birth ? +That's correct. +Are you represented by a solicitor today? +Should be. +Is it Mr ? +I haven't a clue. +You have all the documents in front of you. +Well I think Mr represented you on a previous occasion, that's why I'm asking you now. +I don't know sir. +My solicitor's in Birmingham +Mr was duty solicitor on that day. +Ah. +I think he's represented you on more than one occasion in fact hasn't he? +But don't you know whether a solicitor's going to be here for the committal proceedings today? +I haven't a clue what's happening. +I don't know, I've no +If, you're the defendant, one would have thought +as, as far as I know I have a committal today. +That's right. +And I would have thought that your solicitor was to be here to represent you. +As far as I'm aware my solicitor has been in contact with prosecution to have the case transferred to Birmingham Crown Court. +Well it hasn't even been committed for trial yet. +Do you know anything about this Miss ? +I'm afraid to say that I have no knowledge. +I haven't certainly myself spoken to anybody with regard to that. +I would have thought the normal procedure would be for him to be committed to Preston Crown Court and for the Crown Courts thereafter to sort out the final venue. +I certainly have no knowledge of any contact with regard to the ultimate venue and nothing has been marked on my file. +Your Worships legal aid was granted er on the thirteenth of September to a firm called of Birmingham. +Looks as if they're not here Your Worships. +All I can suggest sir is the case is adjourned just have to arrange for a solicitor to be here. +Do you have anything to say about that Mr ? +I wish the committee to go along please sir. +I've been stuck up in this part +In that case put it back to later in the day sir because the statements have to be read out in court. +If he doesn't want to be represented, is that what you're saying ? +What I'm saying sir is to save any inconvenience to the court is that if I can have my committal cos I don't wanna be stuck up in this part of the country. +I have a Crown Court appearance in Birmingham and as far as I'm aware my solicitors have been in contact with the prosecution in this part of the country to explain the procedure and as far as I'm aware the committal this morning was to be committed to Birmingham Crown Court with other offences. +Well you've heard the senior prosecutor say that she knows +Well I +She knows nothing about that. +I don't sir. +Yeah +Well in that case sir can I take my my committal to Preston Crown Court and when I go to Birmingham +If you're committed for trial from this court you will be committed to Preston. +Well I'll take it now then sir. +If if it is to be arranged +at another court +Crown Court that arranged that +Well in that case sir can you give the committee the funds. +As of now. +As I say sir we need to put this matter back to later in the day. +The defendant would not appear to be represented, therefore the committal will have to be dealt with by the way of reading out all the statements . +It can't be done +Therefore we'll put this case back till later in the day. +Do you see that Mr ? +Because you're not represented +Well I don't know what the situation is +Well I'm telling, that's what I'm trying to tell you. +That because you're not represented the statements will have to be read out which will then take quite some time . +And they will if you to court which is something you were concerned about. +I don't know if you can help that man or not. +I'll have a word with him Terry +Because Mr had represented him. +Mr said before that he, he thought it was as duty solicitor. +He, he has represented him at some stage as duty solicitor. +But he is represented under a legal aid order, this defendant, by a firm of solicitors in Birmingham and he's anxious to be committed for trial today. +If you would represent him we could it section six two. +Otherwise +solicitor present today? +Not a clue, but he doesn't know either. +Oh I see. +He's given certain information to the court which isn't correct anyway. +It might help everybody concerned if you could help him. +I'll have a word with him sir. +Yes. +Would you deal with cases fifty five and fifty six Your Worships, Sean David . +Mr will represent him. +Are you Sean David ? +Yes. +What's your date of birth Mr ? +What is your address, Mr ? +You are charged with two offences, the first of which is that at Clitheroe on the twenty sixth of August nineteen eighty eight without lawful excuse you damaged two stained glass windows, a picture frame glass and twelve drinking glasses of varying descriptions belonging to breweries, intending to damage that property, for being reckless as to whether that property would be damaged contrary to section one of the Criminal Damage Act of nineteen seventy one. +I understand Miss the value has been mentioned on a previous occasion of being three hundred and ninety five pounds. +Indeed sir yes. +Right. +To that charge Sean David do you plead guilty or not guilty? +Worships if I may interrupt that though, there's some dispute about the damage which was allegedly caused. +I have mentioned it to Miss this morning and she has undertaken to make further enquiries. +Er briefly the situation is that it's alleged that he broke two stained glass door panels and Mr denies that he broke the second of the two. +The one at the front door he says was broken at some time earlier than the evening on which he was involved. +Unfortunately Miss hasn't been able to conclude her enquiries er to apportion the damage and to take instructions as to the veracity of what I have just said. +It is suggested er by both myself and er my colleague that the matter should be adjourned for one week. +Well it was adjourned last week but er instructions Your Worships. +Yes we agree to adjourn this case for one week enquiries can be made. +Sir he does answer on conditional bail today. +Well bail will be extended for one week. +So you know what that means Mr , you were told this last week. +You're surrender yourself to bail next Tuesday at ten o'clock. +Hopefully the matter will proceed next week. +Can he go Your Worships? +Yes he can leave the court +Case number one Your Worships please. +Peter John . +Are you Peter John ? +That's right. +What's your date of birth? +What's your home address Mr ? +You are charged with an offence which is contrary to section six of the Road Traffic Act of nineteen seventy two that you at Worley on the ninth of September drove a motor vehicle on the A six seven one Worley by- pass having consumed alcohol in such a quantity that the proportion of it in your breath exceeded the prescribed limit. +Do you understand? +Do you plead guilty or not guilty? +Guilty. +Have you got your driving licence with your Mr ? +I haven't got it +Why? +Because, well I told the police at the time that er I've misplaced it and er +What have you done about getting a, a replacement? +Well I haven't done anything at the moment because I didn't I didn't think it was worth it actually. +Well it says on the bottom of er your copy of the charge sheet production of driving licence you must produce it. +Failure to produce it will mean that it is automatically suspended and it also means you've committed yet another offence by not having a driving licence here to produce Mr . +Well I wa I wasn't sure whether to whether it would come through in time for the case That's why I didn't +send off for it. +I wasn't sure what the situation was +Unless the prosecutor is in the fortunate position of having a computer printout of your driving er record and your licence record the case won't be able to proceed today anyway. +regrettably there isn't a printout of the driving licence. +Well the case can't go ahead today without your driving licence. +Sorry, the case can't go ahead without your driving licence. +How many weeks do you want er Miss ? +Your Worships I would anticipate that it normally takes at least three weeks for a printout from a computer to be obtained. +This case is adjourned for three weeks in order get a printout can be obtained. +Do that mean I don't have to apply for another licence? +No, what er y er I suggest you don't apply for another licence now, now you've left it so late. +But er I would urge you to try to find your driving licence because +Oh I, I don't think I will be able to but I'll have a look. +Right well you know you're going to be disqualified eventually for this offence if you're convicted? +Yeah. +What the offence er the drink driving offence? +Yes. +Yeah. +I realize that. +You pleaded guilty to the charge anyway Mr . +The point is that when you are disqualified you're not just disqualified from driving, you are disqualified from holding or obtaining any driving licence. +So if you've got one at home, you're committing an offence by being in possession of it. +Do you understand? +Do you understand that? +Yeah. +Right, from now on you mean? +Yeah. +When you're disqualified. +Don't apply for a driving licence in the meantime. +But er you'll be in a far safer position if you actually produce your licence on the twenty fifth of October. +Can I go sir? +Yes you can leave the court now. +Right Mrs ? +Er number twenty one sir. +John Graham +Twenty, twenty one? +Yes sir. +Could you deal with that matter Your Worships? +John Graham please. +Twenty one Now are you John Graham ? +John Geoffrey . +John? +Geoffrey . +Geo with a G? +Yes. +What's your date of birth Mr ? +And what's your home address? +You're summoned for a number of offences the first of which is that on the twenty first of June nineteen eighty eight you, on the public road namely Acrington Road Worley, used a mechanically propelled vehicle when there was no excise licence in force. +That's an offence under the Vehicles Excise Act of nineteen seventy one. +Do you understand? +Yes. +Do you plead guilty or not guilty? +Guilty. +Also that you being the driver of the motor car, having been required to produce your driving licence for examination to a police officer, failed to do so. +To that do you plead guilty or not guilty? +Guilty. +Also that you used the vehicle without insurance being in force in respect of third party risks in contravention of section a hundred and forty three of the Road Traffic Act. +To that are you guilty or not guilty? +Not guilty. +Also that on the twenty first of June you used a motor vehicle at Worley on Acrington Road when there was no test certificate in force. +Are you guilty or not guilty? +Not guilty. +Also that you failed to produce an insurance certificate on being required to do so. +Are you guilty or not guilty? +Guilty. +And finally that you failed to produce a test certificate. +Are you guilty or not guilty? +Guilty. +Has he produced these documents to you Miss ? +No sir. +Have you got the insurance with you? +Yes. +And test certificate with you? +I've given solicitor +What? +I've given them to that solicitor that +Well who's your solicitor? +It was duty solicitor sir. +Oh. +Could you tell Mr that he's wanted please, wherever he is. +I certainly have. +Would you like me to show them to the prosecuting solicitor? +Well if that will save time. +Nine present offences. +please Your Worships I am satisfied that those documents do cover the defendant for the date in question and I would therefore offer no evidence in relation to the no insurance and no test certificate offences those. +Right. +Did you hear that sir? +Mr those three charges driving a motor car without insurance and a test certificate, those two charges are dismissed. +Er now let's have the prosecution, have the facts for the other offences then Miss . +may please Your Worships it was the twenty first of June in the morning when the police officer was on duty on the A six eight, the Acrington road to Worley. +He had occasion to stop the vehicle which was being driven by Mr and he noted that the excise licence which was being displayed had in fact expired at the end of March. +Mr was unable to produce his documents in relation to the vehicle which he indicated was his own, and he was therefore given an H R T one to produce his documents. +But you will appreciate that in the matters that he has pleaded, pleaded guilty to this morning, he in fact failed to produce his insurance, driving licence and test certificate within the required period. +Your Worships those are the brief facts. +I would ask you to consider back duty of eight pounds thirty three pence, that being for the month of May. +This says June on here. +I beg your pardon. +it is in fact for the month of June. +Right. +I'd also ask you to consider costs of ten pounds. +You're able to help him now are you ? +Yes Your Worships in fact I wonder if I may +Just a minute before we start but er why are you the back duty for June when his licence finished at the end of March? +Sir I apologize. +I was going by a brief statement made by the officer which indicated that it expired on the thirty first of March. +I think in fact that is a an error on the officer's part. +It would appear from the licensing authorities in fact it expired at the end of May. +Your Worships er these offences arise out of er what was initially a road traffic accident which occurred on the twenty first of June er when er Mr 's vehicle came into collision with er a vehicle that was erm stationary in the centre of the road waiting to turn right. +No er allegations of erm concerning the correctness of his driving er are made by the pr prosecution er as a result of the incident but er as a result of the officer's enquiries er it came to light that Mr was er in breach of some of the er other regulations regarding road users and er so the summonses which you are to deal with this morning have er have been issued against him. +Erm and you will be aware that, er two of three of the er summonses that are now left for you to de deal with, that's three of the four er do in fact relate to failure to produce documents. +Er failure to produce his driving licence, failure to produce a test certificate for the vehicle and failure to produce his insurance document. +And what Mr says in respect of er those three offences is that erm the officer, he accepts, did tell him that he was obliged to produce the documents to a police station but he says that he was suffering some shock as a result of the road accident and er he didn't appreciate what the officer was saying to him at the time and, never having had to produce his documents at the police station before, er he had never er known that that was a procedure that had to be followed. +And in the circumstances, he didn't pay any attention to the print on the er H R T er one form that was issued to him and he didn't produce the documents. +It was completely ignorance on his part in that respect. +Er Your Worships the one remaining summons is the one relating to the fact that his vehicle er wasn't taxed at the time of the accident, and I think er you, you will be aware, his tax did run out at the end of May and this accident happened on the twenty first of June. +I've asked him about that and what he said is that er he was saving up and he was going to tax the vehicle as soon as he was able to do so, but he didn't have the funds er to do so at, at that time. +Erm he is obviously aware that er by not having the vehicle taxed, it's going to cost him considerably more than if he had er taxed the vehicle at the right, correct and proper time. +Your Worships Mr works for in Worley and he works for them as an engineer. +His vehicle was erm something that he did use for work but unfortunately as a result of the accident his has been written off and he hasn't yet been able to er replace it and so he's having to be erm er chauffeured by the company to do his er his work. +Erm he was using at that time an R registered Ford Escort er which was er only insured third party fire and theft. +He receives for his employment a take home pay of seventy three pounds per week. +He lives with his parents and pays board of twenty pounds per week. +He's fortunate in that his employer takes him to work in the mornings but he has to catch the bus home in the evening and a at lunchtime on Saturdays which costs him seven pounds forty. +He hasn't any other commitments and he would ask that erm he'd be allowed to pay the fine at a rate of twenty pounds per week. +Your Worships those are the circumstances, I would ask you to bear in mind that this man ha has four summonses against him purely as a result of really ignorance as far as production of documents is concerned. +They were in order and erm he would have produced them had he realized what the officer was saying to him and er that he would have er realized had he not been suffering the shock that he was actually shuff suffering at the er at the time of the accident. +I don't think +Now Mr er you pleaded guilty to these offences and we've listened to what the solicitor has said on your behalf. +The main offence of having no excise licence you'll be fined seventy five pounds. +You'll be ordered to pay eight pounds thirty three back duty and ten pounds costs. +the offences of failing to produce you've been fined ten pounds for each of those three offences. +We will order the fines and costs to be paid at the rate of twenty pounds a week. +So I make that a hundred and thirteen a hundred and twenty three pounds with the costs sir thirty three pence. +No a hundred and twenty six thirty three. +Sorry, you're right. +One two three +eight. +One two three three three sir. +Under do you understand that er Mr ? +Yes. +You'll pay that at twenty pounds a week. +The officer of the court is agreed the address will be given to you by the court official before you leave. +It is your responsibility to make sure that money is paid each and every week. +The first payment is due by next Tuesday. +Erm I'm off sick at the moment from work so +So what? +So I won't be able to pay the first payment cos you know I ain't got no money. +Don't you get any sick pay at all? +Well erm I've just come off holiday and so I won't be entitled to none for the first four days. +I see. +And when are you likely to be earning again? +Erm perhaps the middle of next week. +give fourteen days for the first payment sir? +Yes. +You'll have fourteen days for the first payment and twenty pounds a week thereafter. +So by a fortnight today there's gotta be a payment in +Yes. +Mr . +Right? +Thank you. +Miss apparently you represent Mr I I notice from the documents from the er summons it was adjourned because erm their solicitor wrote to say that he would be pleading not guilty? +Yeah. +Is that the case? +Yeah Your Worships I understand that the er the prosecution have erm an application . +I don't know if you wish to deal with this +So who's it for? +Is, if it's not going to be a trial +Well Your Worship +I'll do it now but if it +I wonder if I can assist. +It is an a matter where Miss has spoken to me about this particular case and it +Forty five. +Case forty five Your Worship. +It's the view of the prosecution that this is a matter that could be dealt with quite satisfactorily by the way of bind over if the court were minded to do that, if the court would accept that course of action. +I understand Mr would be willing to be bound over. +Yes I confirm that that's correct. +Yes. +Well obviously Miss the magistrates will need to be satisfied there are grounds why they should bind him over. +They will also need to be satisfied that there is a fear for the future otherwise they will not bind him over. +I appreciate that sir. +You may feel at the end of the day that you need to hear from the officer of the case and he is still present obviously in case the court wishes to +I see. +Well in that case I, I will leave it till, I'll deal with this a little bit later on. +Obviously it could take +possibly half an hour or so, so who else is present Mrs ? +Er number forty one sir, Sylvia . +Could you deal with that Your Worships please? +Yes. +Forty one. +Are you Sylvia ? +Yes. +What is your date of birth please? +Pardon? +What is your date of birth please? +Er +And what is your home address? +Thank you. +Your summoned that at Worley on the twenty fifth of July nineteen eighty eight, you being the driver or a motor car on King Street and an accident occurred where injury was caused to you failed to stop in accordance with section twenty five of the Road Traffic Act of nineteen seventy two. +Do you understand that? +Yes. +Do you plead guilty or not guilty? +Well I did stop because I tried to avoid him. +Well I'm sorry are you Miss or Mrs ? +Pardon? +Are you Miss or Mrs ? +Mrs. +Mrs the court cannot enquire into the circumstances at this stage. +All the court wants to know is are you pleading guilty or not guilty. +Mr has handed me your driving licence. +Mr as duty solicitor have you seen this lady? +Yes I have seen her sir. +Have you been able to advise her? +Well I, I have advised her that erm er implications of the erm er of the offence. +Possibly I could just have another word with her +Right it, it might help her. +Now I'll ask you again Mrs , to that offence of failing to stop in accordance with the requirements of the Road Traffic Act do you plead guilty or not + +Well we'll begin the Parish Council er er with apologies. +We have apologies from m John Holmes . +And apologies from Mrs Armstrong, the other District Councillor. +Have you got the minutes of the previous meeting? +Are you happy that I sign these er Mr +Yes. +Good. +Thank you. +And have you any matters arising, from these minutes? +Er I should say that er we will be discussing Four Lane, er and any planning appli erm, things. +I attended the last charity meeting on the thirtieth of November. +Thank you. +Erm. +The thirtieth of November? +Yeah. +I have here a copy of the committee which was formed that night, and also a copy of the minutes, I'll give each Councillor one, and then they can read it at their leisure, instead of me taking up the whole meeting. +Thank you. +Okay? +Do you want to give them now or do it at the end? +Give them now if you like. +Can I just say that in getting them, I think erm the er Lands Charity trustees are not actually obliged to report to us, and Kevin's doing this as a matter of sort of courtesy really, because we appointed him, erm but erm erm I think it's a subject that could well be called on for one of these sort of regular, little, important at the A G M, erm +It could be one of those. +erm to look over the year, and . +any are those? +No, just one, one of each. +One for each. +There's a free sheet. +Two sheets. +Thank you. +And I gather there will be another meeting shortly. +The first of February. +Good evening. +Dale Ross of Land Development. +Ah, good evening, come in, we've er, we've only just started on the Parish Council, so er +I can't +Well er,yo as a member of the public you will be invited to speak, you know where I ask you to come in, thank you. +Erm, can we have the Clerk's report? +Could I just mention before it goes by +No. +the quiz is on the second of February, Wednesday, if anyone here is interested in coming they only had about two people attend from this village. +The second of February? +I didn't hear what. +Last time we had it, and two from Haylands, so er, tea and biscuits will be provided, we're playing it may be the best +Quiz. +Quiz. +and this time we hope it'll be different, so erm +Where is it happening? +It's here. +Erm, here . +Here? +Eight O'clock, second of February, +In the chapel there? +Yes, I think we may be using the, because the opposing team always bring a lot of people and we never have any supporters, somehow, so erm, er we're very pleased if people who sort of spread that about a bit. +Erm, after the last meeting, erm I wrote to Mr Dicks of Newton Sherwood about the er electoral role they er draft one with one or two amendments, I also wrote back to the Nottinghamshire valuation tribunal, who asked us for er maps and centres of our population which we couldn't supply, also wrote to the services, erm which will supply er Smiths erm bungalow on Poor Lane, informing them of our interest off Poor Lane, erm, and also to erm footpaths off this to Mr Jones about the same thing, because Poor Lane is public footpath, erm subsequently I spoke to him on the telephone and erm he advised us that erm they have an interest in it, erm, have received from Notts County Council a little booklet, which +I think everybody's had that. +You've all had one? +Right. +you've had one? +I don't think so. +Parish Council Conference, so, which some people attended, on the eighth of November I received the minutes yesterday, erm, I don't know if anybody's interested, are you John? +Yes, I was up there at that time. +One minute. +Er, had a press release, er about the temporary closure of Graves Lane, which actually is just about, I think, finished now. +Yes, it's done. +Yeah, that's right, erm, there is to be a public transport conference and at Edwinstowe on Wednesday the ninth of November, and there's erm +February? +Sorry. +You never get to them on time. +Ninth of February I'm not, a governors meeting. +You've got a governors meeting, yeah. +I'll pass round the agenda, and then you can pass it round when we've had a look, er County Link, just information from Notts County Council, erm who'd like to see? +Highways Department, with it's usual highways briefing, that comes every month, erm a pamphlet or a booklet about highways in winter, we ought to put around. +Also had further letter from Notts County Council about Nottinghamshire Minerals local plan, asking us again if we have any representations to make, I think it was decided at a previous meeting that we did not, erm Colin Williamson, production of development and planning at Newton and Sherwood District Council, it's proposal to run seminars for Parish Councils on planning policies, law and procedures, and we would like to know erm whether erm we would be interested in attending, and how many people would wish, he he has earmarked temporarily twenty eighth of March, which is a Monday, as a possible date at town hall, so if er if you think that would be something that you would be erm interested in going to, the topics erm are really I think things that came up at the Parish Council's conference, the questions about planning, about the rules, and the policies, and the procedures etcetera, the erm, and visitors were talking last thing for sixth of December for five minutes, and the discussion for half an hour to three quarters, commencing at half past seven, so er if anyone's interested in attending that? +Are you interested John? +This guy wants some numbers, some ideas. +Well, yes, probably, because I had the job of proposing that at the +Oh, right. +I wouldn't mind going. +Would you like to go Anne, yeah, what about you Arnold? +I'd have thought those two would be enough. +Well, anybody can go, I mean it's just, you know, I'll say two then +I'd be interested, yes, yes. +Mm. +Put those two then . +Right, okay. +That's a Monday, is it? +That's a Monday at the moment, Monday the twenty eighth, that's Anne and John. +Just as many people, they can manage with that in . +Is it at Kelham Hall, Eileen? +Yeah, seven thirty, thought it would be. +What's it called? +Erm, well it's just a seminar about planning at the moment, I shall get further information about it on nearer the time, erm, a change in who would pay our, or get our VAT repayment claim from, doesn't change an address basically, and er a request from Sam Stewart, whose erm a Counc , er a County Councillor, er something which I really can't actually erm help him with, he wants to know the whole of our Parish Council meetings date for nineteen ninety four, but I mean this is something we fix as we go along, so I really don't think that I can help him by that, and I'm sending him that, erm +Can I ask if they, if he says er why he wants to know this, people intend to come, or? +I don't know. +Could I help please Chairman, Sam Stewart is the County Councillor that covers the South ward that +Yes. +I do, but for the County Council +Mm. +and if you've got any problems with highways at, I mean, a lot of the things you discuss are County Council matters +Yes, they +In fact I've, I've +highways and that sort of thing, and he does go to Farnsfield, and he does go to Oxford and back, and really all you need do is just send him, you needn't send him the minutes here, you just send him the notice of the meeting +Mm. +his address,i i you've got his address presumably ? +Oh yes, but he wants them for the whole of the year you see, which is impossible . +Yeah, well tell him you'll put him in his diary, I I would have thought if you'd just sent him the notes to each meeting he would come if he would, if he could, and if he can't, he can't. +Well I think that's a good idea if we have something with that nature. +Well, are are you happy that he circulized over time, I mean, we can easily do that. +I'm not particularly, because I'm not +Well no, I'm asking you if +what, would you like us to let the County Council know when our meetings our? +Well, it would be +I think it's said it, if there's anything on pertaining to the County Council, like highway matters, then it could be useful, but I mean if it just, there's no point in him sitting here to discuss planning applications, because that enquiry's +there's the District Council as well. +I I I do differ with that in some respects, in that er until we've arranged the agenda we're not always sure whether there will be specifically highway matters, er and er I must confess, although not on the agenda very often, highway matters are things that that that that do get commented on, er but er none the less, it's just the principle, I mean er it's a bit difficult to start saying, well do we send it because we have particular things, er or or +What's the problem with sending one in each time? +Well this is what I'm asking, I mean do you want one sent over Arnold? +Well he is as entitled to come as anybody else +Yes. +provided he knows when it is, I mean, and those who aren't going to get a County Council for much longer may as well er +Well, having said that there is a notice board that he can look at, you know? +Well, I mean I take the view that if we are going to erm have something on the agenda, I can telephone his secretary, I can write to him, anytime, which I'm quite willing to do, I cannot see the point in sending things through the post at twenty five P a time when we shall never see the man, and if he comes here +But surely this is just one sheet with the agenda on. +Mm. +It wouldn't warrant, you know, send it second class weight. +Well I mean I agree, it still costs twenty five P +Not if you send it second class. +You won't see much of him, because +No, that's right. +he doesn't have very much time . +He's a very busy man. +As Mr Watt says, the County Council are on their way out. +Peter, are you sure ? +Wo would you like to try it for the next year, or few meetings ? +Well, can I propose we try it for the next three meetings, and +Three meetings, okay . +see if something that could be useful, or it could not, you never know. +Are you happy with that? +Yes, yes. +Okay then. +Has the fella said when he left the note, +I can't see why not. +closing time, if everyone don't want them, if you want them you can't get them. +That's right, thought so. +Ian , er have we decided whose going to this er +To the erm meeting +The meeting on +yes, this one . +transport. +transport. +Anybody? +It's on the erm the ninth of February. +What day is that? +That's a whole day one isn't it? +Er, Wednesday. +That's a whole day. +Yeah, it is actually, that's the drawback, it's the whole day, and most people are working, aren't they? +Can I think about that one? +Yeah, okay. +On the what date? +Well look, I'll leave you with this, and if you, if you want to go post that. +Sign it in, that okay. +Does anyone else want to? +No. +Er, well, you +On my own? +You keep looking +Think I might know about it do you? +Well, I, I, I mean I've been to one, to a meeting, they had in Manchester a few years ago, Irene's been to some. +I've been to . +Mm. +Yeah. +That's right. +But er, all day, I agree is a rather a +Big commitment. +Well, we'll have a look at it. +Especially if nobodies with me . +Well, I'll see what I can help you out, I'll try. +A circular letter, erm the landscaping company asking if we have any works that we need doing, I don't think we do erm hedging and lawn cutting and everything. +C c , are they a private company +Yeah. +or are they part of the +Yes. +County Council department. +No just private people trying to get work. +Erm Newark and Sherwood District Council, er er instigating a customer comments procedure, erm whereby you can write or ring or anything at all that you think would improve their services, or anything suitable or anything like that, and there are details about it there, er with erm a flow chart, erm what the action that will be taken if their clients have a look at that, one of them's just to receive public comments about their performance, I suppose it's to do with er +can you comment on that, Phil? +Anything from you Mr Curtis? +Well not really Mr Chairman +planning applications and er er items relating to Poor Lane, er and also the traffic on Station Road later on, er I think it's rather complicated to talk about all of these at at one go, because I know er different members of the public have come for different reasons and perhaps, for the moment, I'll not ask for any comments about Mr Smith's proposals on Poor Lane, er nor er comments about Station Road, er but I will ask you if you want to refer to planning applications, er we have three planning applications, one is to extend the car park behind the pub, one is for a change of plan to one of the houses on the development adjacent to us, er and the third one is er er the plans submitted by Grant Development at Thorney, erm, I suspect most comments will be about the last, er perhaps I should ask first if anybody wants to make any comments about proposals behind the reindeer in, or at Chapel cottage site, does anybody, er in the public want to mention those erm, well we will go on to the one at Thorney then, and you're Mr Walker? +I'm Derek Walker, Michael Diffin. +And? +Michael Diffin. +Michael? +Diffin. +D I F F I N . +Diffin? +Erm, have come from Grant Development erm, I think the views er of people who live in the village will be pretty forcefully er put, and and I believe, can I ask with the exception of Mr Bust, and possibly Mr Pool, have you er three gentleman seen the plans to which we are referring? +I have. +Are you Mr . +They've both seen . +Yes, but I mean I know you've er lived in the area, er so erm, perhaps I should invite Mr Walker or Mr Diffin to to make a if you look, wish to bear in mind that we have seen the plans +Yeah. +er we can clear the table if you wish to point anything out to us, erm, or if you prefer to er er to wait and hear what +Can I er take the opportunity to clear up some technical sort of er technical points to do with the plans, however, probably inadvertent, the first one, erm in the er letter copy of the letter that you sent to the er Planning Authority, erm and you mentioned one plan being erm handed, it doesn't say, actually it didn't specify which house or which is the proper way it should be handled, but in the small plan showing the site, and the position of the houses, the attached er garage on the house on plot number two, that's the one erm you notice the bridge, this end one, is shown on the right, but in the detailed plan of the house it's shown on the left, now +Now it's . +It should be on the left. +Hang on. +We assume it's the one on the right, there . +It's to be on the right, the layout plan Mr Bradford is correct, the house type is just purely the elevation the +Yes. +whole thing will be handed single storey garage is alongside each individual house . +Yes, yes, well that well that's is that is that what other people have understood? +So the garage, at, whoever the front the garage will be on the right, yes. +Yes. +Yeah. +Adjacent to the existing terraced house. +Yes, so in fact the the plan that of the house is a kind of a like a mirror image, in fact what +True. +a er, yeah. +And then there's into the open plan as well.. +And there will be in fact a right into the . +Oh is it? +I believe when we +You just actually give him the distance. +There's at least a metre. +At least a metre yes. +The footpath round the garage. +Yeah. +And the other thing I was going to ask was you that you've appealed on the planning application. +Yes. +Erm +Which often takes some time. +If you're successful on this er current application, you won't , but erm supposing this application were to be turned down by the planning authority, er that you were successful upon the appeal on the first one you would actually proceed according to the plan that was submitted at the first one. +At the moment. +Yes. +Yes. +Right is there anything er er or would you like to just listen to what people have got +Well y yes, by all means yes, sounds appropriate. +Yes. +Chairman can ask through you whether +Yes, Mr . +are departments will be given an opportunity of explaining precisely what their development does for the village? +Er they may not be able to answer that precisely, Mr Bradford . +Well I +but er we can go and ask them, yes. +I mean, okay, what have they +If you feel that er, do you feel it's an asset to the village? +What you're +I personally feel it's better than what's there now at the moment, it's also positioned on a a site which is now zoned for housing anyway in the district plan, erm it is providing true good quality houses in the area, we we personally feel that it's better than what's being proposed alongside here. +We feel it would be better for the village. +You can't see what you, what's there now though, but you will see the new ones. +No, I think he's referring to Chapel, you're referring +Yes. +to these three here? +These three along here . +Oh, these three here, I know, mm. +I mean if anybody wan wants to see the quality, I would er plo plots one and two are plots two and one at er Fiskerton, er Ben Lochan, the same . +You have got some at Morton? +Yes. +Yes, and er you have to hurry to see plot two because if people move in late on Tuesday, but erm we can see that monitor development, it er we are we are a quality builder, we're not a clown . +They'll, they'll be easier to find in Morton if we +Yes. +went down . +Straight opposite the pub, yeah. +Be alright, wouldn't it ? +Thornton inn. +Is there anything else Mr Bradford, about er +Well, they, they may be quality builders, Mr Chairman, but I'm not sure that it happen, has any relevance to this discussion, we're talking about a planning application. +Oh yes, yes, but you just asked what benefit they thought they brought to the village. +The only benefits that seem to have been suggested is that their proposals are better than what's there at the moment, er Grant Developments must be aware that there is a, an approval, a current planning approval for the development of that site, which is a development to retain the existing bungalow and develop the existing bungalow, and to build a house in the rear. +I, I think to be er, I think it is more correct to say that there was an outline planning application for an additional dwelling on that site, er in addition to the bungalow that is there, and I I think that is the situation, and all subsequent planning applications have been refused. +Yes. +Er, that that is slightly different in that an outline planning consent er is not is is precisely what it says, it is not a detail of the type of dwelling that is going on it, but it, you're quite correct in that the planning precedent has been put, that that site is adequate for two dwellings, and and I don't think anybodies disputing that, er at least not so far. +Is there anybody else er wants +What I want to dispute, Mr Chairman, is the the type and the nature of dwellings which are being developed on the site . +Er, no, er, oh yes, exactly, yes, yes. +Erm, I mean I think if we're wishing to analyse the application, I I think we must consider what it doesn't do for the village, and I think there are a number of aspects that have to be considered, erm, first of all as a village, and I've heard in this very Parish Council that the reputed view made that there is a need for small village accommodation, this development certainly does not provide that, we've also expressed a view that it would be nice to retain the existing bungalow, because that is small village accommodation, and although it only has a very limited history, again it would be nice to retain it as an integral part of the village. +The application does nothing to retain the existing trees on the site, it was a, it is, a mature garden with some mature trees, and all those trees are to be removed, it certainly doesn't do anything to retain the rural character of the na of the village, and certainly doesn't enhance the character of the adjoining small er rural cottages,i in fact it would be, it could be argued that it damages the rural environment, because the development is such that it is more suited for an urban development, almost a city centre, because the comment has been made that there is only about a metre between the dwellings and indeed there is only a metre between the dwellings and the adjoining boundaries, surely there is a need for screening, it is in a in a very very prominent position, it can be seen clearly as you enter the village from the Farnsfield area, the present proposal doesn't provide sufficient room for screening, and and like the screen which is adjacent to this building, which are set well back from the road, and provide an opportunity for screening the single access to the site and the fact that the frontage to these two properties is completely taken up with garaging and with vehicle access doesn't even provide an opportunity to screen. +I can't say that er their intention, and I think Mr Grant, Mr Diffin will er confirm, that t to retain or probably replant the existing external hedge to the property +Well, no we we intend intend all of this . +Er and er yes, in in as far as where the excess, access isn't +Yes +needed. +that's right. +There'll only be a small section of the hedge that would come down, just +Yes. +to give access in . +Yes. +Is it the same access point? +Yes. +The access they are accessing +Is that an +between Braw Lane and Mr Lingard's. +Exactly the same place. +That's right, yes. +Chairman if you are, if you +Goes out that one? +Yes. +are at all familiar with that end of the village you will recognize that there are three points of access, one of which is Mr Lingard's, and as you quite rightly point out is the the bridle track among them. +Er, er excuse me, there is no access from the bridle track, er and Mr Lingard's +Onto the road? +Onto the road. +er Mr Lingard's access was er given er by personal consent from Mr Lingard, so their access is directly onto the road. +Yes, there will be three points of access onto the road, one from Mr Lingard's property, one from the development by Grant Construction, and another one from the bridle track. +There will but +These are all +Yes, yes, thank you, yes +the external on the road +Yes, I, I, I +a very dangerous corner, +I take your point +respect in order to ensure that there is adequate visibility from a single point of access from this dual property, it will be necessary to remove a considerable amount of existing hedge to the front of that property, it's almost inevitable that it will have to come down, because it's necessary from the visib visibility display point of view, now that will mean that the whole of these properties are clearly visible from the road, and a major part of the present hedging will have to come down, in short this proposal doesn't do a great deal for the village, in fact as far as the residents of that end of the village are concerned it does a great deal of damage to the village, I +Right. +would suggest that the only reason for this application is one of profit, there has been no attempt to recognize or implement the views of the village in terms of the type of accommodation which is required, I would suspect that it's Grant Development's intention to develop this site and then walk away, and leave the villagers to suffer the consequences. +Well thank you Mr Bradford. +I was going to Grant Development have come here er because they are interested in our views, er I think as far as the access goes I take your point that visibility is required, but I would imagine that that the highways department will have stipulated what is required, as they have indeed for the development next door, er where the hedge, the present hedge is going to be er set back, erm I I can't tell you whether, what stipulation has been made, perhaps these two gentlemen +I think, I think, I think on the er planning report when we went to the last planning committee when the refusal was made highways said the access was okay. +Yes +As it is? +As it is. +I believe it is, yes. +Because in fact with the road being on the bend, cos, actual visibility +It's on the other side of the bend. +is is seen but er +Well they're expecting at least two cars . +It, it's, it's right that that this should be brought up anyway, Mr . +I can confirm Chairman that the District Council of course consult the County Council on access to all applications +Yes, good. +and the County Council didn't raise no objection. +Good. +That may be so Chairman, but with these two four bedroom houses there could be another six to eight cars coming out of that entrance, +Mm. +onto that bend +Mm. +I was there forty years, right, I've seen every accident on that bend, I've had my house as a first aid post a dozen times, until we did something in this committee to sort that corner out +Yes. +and now we get more traffic on it +Well it +I I don't agree with another half a dozen or eight cars coming out of that . +Well there won't be that many cars off two houses, but I would also like to add +Well you're having double garages included. +Yeah. +There's al , already one at Poplington +Not a in building. +There's already one at Poplington actually, just let me finish and you can make your point +Yeah, go on. +you're talking also about extending the car park at the pub, just down the road, so you're going to be increasing traffic into that pub. +Cars coming round that corner could hit a stationary vehicle. +Excuse me, we're on another subject, but I will put you in the clear +I can get you an appointment on that. +I will put you in the clear on the car park at the pub, it's was originally it's going back to as as it originally was, it was the car park, and all they're doing now is reverting back to what it was ten years ago. +Er, can I make a point? +If the planning application, as the gentleman in in the rear says er went through with a cottage, and a house, he'd have exactly the same +It did. +er er traffic. +No. +No. +What you haven't +Not with two houses, one cottage doesn't make the same amount. +Well +If +you're you're going, instead of six cars you're going to have four or five. +Yes, I mean we're well +I mean there's not going to be that much much different. +If they were smaller properties it is possible there would be some less traffic . +It wouldn't be there, the house and the garage would get a four bedroomed house anyway . +I mean they're family houses, aren't they? +Yes, yes. +So the point Mr Walker's making is there's two two families in already +At the cottage? +in the bungalow. +Yes. +There's another house +If that one remained and then another house built alongside, there would be still two houses . +I don't see the, what I'm saying +Yes. +is I don't see that the the excess er access problem has a problem holding up with the highways authority, as far as this enquiry's concerned. +Yes. +I mean I I I +It is if you live in the village. +I I I can see +Sorry? +It is if you live in the village. +Yes. +I I live in a village as well and I mean they, I've got the same +Well I, excuse me, I would ask you to come on that corner at five O'clock at night, and at half past eight, between half past eight and nine in the morning, and see what speed they all come round, alright? +But, er er this this is a highways erm matter +No it's alright, it's alright to put these houses up and down +Ca , can I just do that then, with, with, yes, excuse me Kevin, I think we we voiced that one, we can see there's, there a lot, will obviously be increased er er traffic, er from the site, er and it it's clear that that the bigger the houses the more likely there is we'd have increased traffic. +Now whether this is significant, er obviously it's significant to people who live here er and who witness it, erm, er whether from a legal or highway point of view we aren't able to judge probably, er, does Mr Lingard or Mr Nun wish to show them +Yes, I'd just like to emphasize the point of the last er refusal, which, I've got a copy here, would be over bearing, out of scale with the adjacent residential property, detrimental to the amenity of adjacent occupiers, and I see no, I know we're not talking about an appeal at this stage, we're talking about another application, I personally see no change whatsoever to the circumstances in which the last application was refused, these properties, totally out of proportion, and totally overpowering and overbearing for that entrance to the village +Yes. +er, we have in the East end of the village, including the pub, the farm, and various other properties, a certain type of properties that elevation, a certain sympathetic er amenity, and these buildings, I I heard the word mentioned earlier, I live in the country, I could live in the town, it doesn't matter where I live, but these are not the sort of properties, in my opinion, that should be put on this particular site, er and they're they're totally, all our own elevations and plans of height, and they are totally and utterly out of proportion and out of scale with the present day entrance to the village, and whilst we're not talking totally and utterly about looks, if you come down into the village they are going to be totally over powering, particularly in the, in the actual, in this situation of no hedges and that kind of thing, +Yes. +and they'd be a blot on the landscape to put it mildly, +Yes, that's it yes . +and what I concern myself with now is that this sort of thing is becoming too obvious in the area, this kind of development, this kind of an infringement in villages, looking for , somebody's got to make a stand against it, er and I hope that we shall in this Parish Council +Thank you, yes . +for the defeatist, totally out of keeping. +Can I make a comment on that and that the these houses are and oh ev er we have been been into consultation with Newton Sherwood District Council, since we er since the the first application +Yes. +most of the changes that have been made to those houses have been er erm at the request of Newton Sherwood District Council, they the the they lifted the room pitch, we had a lower one, they wanted a higher one, erm, and you know, erm, all all basically erm the the although they counted it as a change since application +Yeah +and we have done everything that, everything they've requested. +Er, I mean, am I correct to +that's the request of the planning officers +Yes. +Not the members +Yes. +because the members had not yet seen the site +I'm sorry, the planning officer. +Yes the planning officer +Perhaps that +make a statement Mr Chairman, the planning officers last night would actually, I believe approve the application +They recommended approval. +unfortunately the planning committee in considering it turned it down +Yes. +and I'm sorry, I have very little confidence in them and the opinion of the planning officers at at Newark District Council +I believe it's a different planning officer dealing with this application than from the last one, but er +Well, all right, I haven't got tremendous amount of confidence in their opinions, but that's all +But er, I mean I believe er perhaps these gentlemen can put me right, that in fact the pla the present plans that have been put in are very similar to the original plans, before they were amended er in consultation with the +Er, er, er, the first, yes. +with the officers. +Yes. +Erm, and er I don't know who was responsible for this, whether it was Mr Bradford, or whether it was +It was. +er, and whether these were the original, or were these the original ones, Mr Bradford? +I can't see Chairman what drawing you're showing . +that that Kevin's provided it have you? +It, it was off your drawing, yes. +And I've just photostatted it, then it's +Er, which of course does show the relative height of the new houses, against +I want to make the fact that these are in fact the wrong way round. +We know. +Yeah, we know . +Well, well, I'm just +You just need some of the worst +I'm just referring to the to the +if you think that's unreasonable, now, now, that that single storey is there +Yes. +Yes. +move it that way. +But, but you see, this is what er I think, er +It's too high. +that, that, that, that, people are objecting to, it's the height . +They're objecting to the height. +You see. +Er, er, er I hate, hate to argue +Now if you go for something reasonable, say a bungalow and a house, you'd have no problems. +Is Mr Walker saying, Chairman, that the District Council planning officers are asking for this higher roof, but +Yes. +Chairman, this is not unusual, the planners approach is that traditionally erm buildings in this area have erm pantile roofs, which require a steep pitch +Mm. +that that can be seen from er the bungalow almost directly opposite, and er it's almost a traditional requirement that they ask for steep pitches. +Mm. +I, I accept that there is a mixture of houses at this end of the village . +The whole point is, Chairman, the planning officers, both at the site inspection and when it was discussed er er er they were under no misapprehension that it was the height of the building which had been objected to actually . +Yes, that's right, yes. +I mean that was made abundantly clear by Mr Topham, who represented the Parish Council at the site meeting,whe when er one of the senior planning officers was present, so it's an absolute nonsense if they've gone and encouraged the developers to go for an even higher roof line. +Well, I, I, I, only have er comments . +Can I just mention that the reason why some of the older properties in this village has steeper pitched roofs is not because they're pantiled now, because originally they were erm, thatched, and the thatch needs a very steep pitch and particularly when there's a erm a gable end higher than the pantiles, it's where there was a thatched roof originally, but most of the older properties in this village are only one room wide, so you can't get a very big roof on, no matter how steep it is, the proposed houses here are in fact virtually sort of two rooms wide aren't they, so that means they are wide at the eves , I I would personally have thought that erm they could have been pitched a bit less. +Er, Mr Lingard, do you want to say anything? +I, I always have mildly +you know, below the shadow of both the next two properties, we shall, we shall, you know, just have a brick wall, and if they they just shifted the garage to one end and as far as I'm concerned it's an excuse for them to put up the power, that is, +Yes. +you know, the houses that have just got one wall and a little, or a garage which is higher than just about as high as I think +Yes, yes. +Can I just +Well of course they are behind the line of your house, I mean but even so it's sort of, erm +Can I ask the applicants, please, is a, if the the location, the actual siting of the present houses, is any further erm away from the road and the originally proposed +Well have you got a copy of the plan then? +Yeah we have, yes. +If you +look at the plan a minute and I'll show you on the plan . +I, I can't remember the original plan. +Where are they going to put the drains in? +There's a sewer. +Where? +In the road. +What, between the houses? +I had the impression +a little bit. +Isn't that going to come out and join that one from Micklethorpe Lane? +Oh no, no no, no no, no no. +From the plans that I've seen there's no change from what they originally planned +You're correct. +You're actually right Mr Lingard +you know +you then have the terraced cottage on the site there, +Yes. +you then have a hedge and there's a metre or a metre and a half that way, then you've got the single trees +I mean I've stood on our our bridge and looked down. +Yes. +Er, this I I should get. +They'd be very domineering about it, wouldn't they, really? +Exactly, we got used to them haven't we . +It's the angle of the road, isn't it? +That's it. +Yes you do, you look right at it. +But surely the size of that house, you've probably got people with at least two, if not three cars probably. +Well it it's true isn't it? +You've got a small Renault,. +And has that changed at all? +That one's the same. +That one's the same. +Yes. +So it's this one that you've changed? +Yes. +It's this one . +Thank you. +Erm, er I'll I'll close it at two, but perhaps I could ask the the applicants erm, I mean I appreciate that obviously erm it er it economy in in in obviously in what you're doing, but I think it it it would be fairly obviously to, I mean it's been stated that that that that residents nearby would prefer either two bungalows or a house and a bungalow, and I think er that certainly erm new developments adjacent to where you are proposing these are in fact all bungalows, er with the exception of the mill, which of course has been there a long time, er all those on that side of the road, both those two built and those two proposed are a bungalow or a semi bungalow, er and so erm you can see that obviously it is that the height of these buildings, it is erm causing the offence, largely, erm I I think, I mean obviously you will want to to to to main you know, optimize your er development, but whether er a scheme with two bungalows that they wouldn't be four bedroomed bungalows, because there wouldn't be room for two of the four two four bedroomed bungalows, erm +Quite what, I mean at the there's one following behind the site of the other +Yes. +that we've got,i i is that a four bedroomed detached house? +No. +The one that's planned? +Yes. +It's a bungalow. +That one? +Yes, er it could be a four bedroomed bungalow, I'm not sure, I can't remember now. +But that is right behind it, the stream and and +That is behind your plot, yes. +will not be in any way shape or form detrimental to +It is of course a lot lower. +this is a . +Yes, yes. +It's a bungalow, it's going to be screened and it's going to be right at the back, there's going to be no no er +I'm er +problem at all. +But whatever whatever is put there there is going to be a a four bedroomed house in the garden of the of the cottage, which is erm going to be very much the same as the plot one there anyway, isn't it? +I think basically what people are trying to say that two huge houses is negatively very overbearing erm it would be a lot easier to accept one larger dwelling and the smaller property, you know one +I can understand that, yes. +Can you understand what I'm trying to get at. +Yes, obviously yes. +I mean Mr Chairman it may just say honestly, I mean this is among ourselves from the commercial point of view there's no doubt about it, I'm in the grocery trade, the more you get on a lorry when you deliver you get every single +Yes, well I mean, I think, I think it's fairly clear that we can appreciate. +but er this is obviously the answer for profit +Yes, yes. +and I don't dispute that at all, but we're not here, I hope, making planning decisions +Yes. +based upon a profit bottom line for Grant Development, we're here looking at the planning application and all the implications. +No, I mean I know that is is not exactly pertinent to the application that is er in, erm I my personal view is that that that bungalows are are practical, we have had it stated by one resident that a house and a bungalow would be acceptable, erm not that I am er anticipating any other planning develop er applications by these applicants but er would a house of a similar nature to one of these that they have proposed, plus a bungalow er, would we have as much opposition to this, to that as as the present ones, or you would prefer to defer until you saw it? +You're talking about a house on plot one and a bungalow, or chalet bungalow on plot two ? +Possibly, possibly, yes, I'm not too +Chairman, if I may add this add this to the outline application, indicating that that's to the rear of the site, the Mayor +Yes. +site, that deals with a lot of the concerns, a lot of the criticisms that we have +Yes. +it's set far enough back from the road, +Yes. +there is an opportunity of being able to screen it from the Farnsfield direction. +This development here, as you approach from Farnsfield, if you look at the angle of the position on site, will be clearly visible and it will create the impression that it is it is one single house, because they are so close together they will stick out like a sore thumb. +So, Mr Mr Bradford in fact if plot one was a house as as proposed to us +But we are not talking terms of plot one and plot two we're simply saying +No but I mean in the ones that they have, yes. +that the original outline application retain the bungalow and built a house towards the rear of the site. +I mean I I think it's fairly clear, unless somebody was a dedicated er +fix a roof on it it could be made into a very attractive rural type property, it it's typical of the kind of property which in a village we're dying for +we want small, small family properties +Thank you Mr +small starter homes for younger people +Well that's what +but there we are, we've got something of that nature, and it's going to be demolished +Yes, yes. +it's going to be flattened, and we're going to end up with two +Small starter homes, they would like to put about four smaller starter homes on that site, I suppose, and then that +That's always a concern at the villages, because I live in a town, I live in a small town near here, erm I've had a lot of dealings in villages, and people who live in villages always want to have starter homes, but as soon as you put an application in for starter homes, there's even more opposition to it, as happened down in Bleasby, Council threw that one out. +You approved three four bedroomed houses behind here, er wasn't any opposition then, was anybody then saying +Can I just +we should have starter homes on there. +Yes. +Can I just make a point here, the Parish Council as a body of Parish Councils did not approve the the +Bilbany idea +Yes it did. +not originally Eric, no. +It was approved +Well there wasn't six now going down to four. +Yeah, we whittled the numbers down but +We were, we were not in full agreement and happy with the development. +I would think that distance +houses there was very much the same as it the distance between the houses here . +I would think if you were felt the area of the houses on that side, the area of the houses on the Thorny side you would think that one's +Yes, but you're looking +relatively good +Yes, but the difference is that I've never seen those houses but I have, I can see those . +We're looking at extremes with a with a situation here +I thought you can't see them at all can you +you're not looking at it in the same way at all. +at that one wrongly, I shall come in from Farnsfield, you see, and you wouldn't see the house this is on, there's a twenty foot high hedge all the way along. +Yes, but do you agree your houses are going to be somewhat above that? +They're going to be +it's not as, it's not as, it's not as if they're right in that corner as you come in from, from er Farnsfield,a a a as Mike said there's a twenty foot fe hedge there, which is going to be kept. +Yes, yes. +I mean the drawings you showed Derek of this, this proposed street thing which is the wrong way round isn't misleading because you won't see all that. +No. +Might I ask you through the Chair? +Originally you were going to retain some of the trees, and build among the trees? +Well we will retain as many trees as we can. +Yeah, but it's impossible to retain them with two four bedroomed houses, now isn't it? +You'll have to uproot the lot, surely? +Well you see originally, I mean that plan, that one there, doesn't, which has let the bulk of the trees all round there and round this area, there's a couple in the backyard as well. +That does not happen if this one be put in. +What, you're going to get two four bedroomed houses and two double garages up and retain some trees in that bit? +Depending on what kind of , yeah. +Well, I I find that totally impossible, I mean I know that, I've been in that plot thousand of times. +The experience Mr Chairman I have of these situations is that trees happen to fall down, and hedges happen to get pushed by bulldozers, and at the end of the day, because I've seen it in my own village where I was born, I'm afraid with all respect to what happens, what is actually passed by the planners doesn't actually come to pass because there is always a reason why it can't. +So I think that what if they care were listening to nominal words about retaining trees and hedges, because trees and hedges have a very clear habit of falling down by accident, +Yes. +and we want to be very very careful +The District Council of course do have their policies on conservation matters, er and er I I accept your point er erm +Can I just mention that time is getting on and the Parish Council still hasn't discussed this +Yes it is, yes. +We have other subjects, yes. +This is not the discussion that we +No, erm if there is no more comment from, Mr Poole, we don't wish to talk about this? +No, no. +So will that do? +Well, I will resume, if er in is a Parish Council, we will deal with the the orders of planning as they are on the agenda, which is a car park and the Reindeer. +Would you like us to leave now? +It's up to you, if you wish to stay you can, and if not, you can leave. +Well, thanks thanks very much. +Yes, thank you. +Thank you. +Thank you. +Thank you. +The Reindeer. +Mhm. +Okay. +The Reindeer is to push the car park back, half way across the grass, er which is er am I correct in saying that it's putting it back where it was? +Or it's er +Yes you are, Chair. +Yes. +It used to be, it used to be tar tarmacked +It goes behind +and they grassed it over for a children's pre pre playground, now they want to turn it back, and extend the car park. +Can I just say at this point that erm John will happ had a word with the landlady and the landlord of the Reindeer, with regards to this application, and what the landlady told John was that she and her husband would dearly like to do away with the breeze block garage that is there, that is totally out of character, and extend the car park way back to the garages, but the brewery are insisting that they do what is planned here and do away with some of the +Grass, yes. +and the little trees and that +Mm. +which they would like to retain. +They would dearly like to do away with the garage, and I think the landlady said she would just like to mention that, as their comment on the application. +Well down here we've got the landlady doesn't really want it to go through. +Well no, I don't think she's saying that, but what she's saying is their thoughts are, ideally it would be better to demolish the +Come up with +breeze block garage that is there. +Well, if that's the Parish Council's view then the +See here? +obvious thing +Is grass. +is to recommend refusal . +Is grass. +Yes. +And then we would have to have another think +And here is grass. +wouldn't we. +So all this lot is converted, it all just +You can't tell them what they're doing, you can only determine the application you have before you. +Is the part behind Reindeer Cottage, do people go on that now, or is that part of their garden? +May I? +Have you seen this Kevin? +No. +Chairman, am I am I eligible to make a comment from the floor? + +Ladies and gentlemen, we just before we get on with the second part of the meeting when erm, meeting erm I think I ought to tell you that erm one of our committee members died a very short while back. +I don't know how many of you knew him. +And that was Arthur Platon who died, died very suddenly. +And the erm committee was represented at the funeral. +And he'd been on our committee for I think it was about about three years was that right? +And erm he'd er contributed quite a lot and so we were very s , it's a very sad loss. +And erm, anyway, I'm, I'm sorry to have to tell you that but erm now we'll get on with the second half of the meeting. +So Brenda. +Thank you. +Well some of you have brought some erm interesting items along. +Haven't had time to look at them all. +erm I'm not going to keep you very long because I've nearly finished talking so erm when I've finished perhaps you would like to bring some of your things up and put them on the table and we can all have a look at them. +And let's make do and mend. +Knitters unpicked old jumpers, washed or seamed the unravelled wool and reknitted it. +The tops of knitted socks with warm toes and heels were unpicked and reknitted with stripes of contrasting wool. +The wool saved was used to knit new toes and heels. +The seams of badly fitting or misshapen woollens were unpicked and the garment washed and reblocked. +Sleeves wearing thin at the elbows were shortened. +Any spare balls of wool were pooled to make children's clothes or squares for patchwork blankets. +Best way patterns produced some interesting variations on the knitted square . +erm I found recently found a Bestway pattern book and this is one of the pa the war time patterns they produced which is sort of shell shaped squares for patchwork and it really looks very effective. +I've I've got a knitting machine and I worked out how to do it on my knitting machine and made a cot blanket for my newest grandchild and it does really look very effective. +So if anybody does patchwork knitting or makes blankets or anything for charity and they'd like to give me a ring any time, I could give you the pattern. +Woollens that were too worn or felted to be unpicked were cut up to make hats, body warmers and bed socks to wear in the shelter. +Patterns also appeared for snoods snoods, turbans, and berets. +Anyone who could hold a pair of knitting needles was expected to knit socks, balaclava helmets and scarves for the fighting men . +And here we have some of the erm patterns that appeared, patterns for women in the services, patterns for men and women, there's the balaclava helmet. +And this is a child's and bonnet to make out of an old felted woolly. +I think it looks rather revolting. +Sort of thing my mum used to make me and I hated. +At the age of nine we, the whole class, knitted gloves for themselves. +And I can still remember the pattern. +I know how to do the same pattern. +I remember a little boy, I've got on a picture with me he was a very very poor child and he made the best gloves in the class and it was a real sort of accolade for him. +Well we, we, I remember about your age and having to knit sea boot stockings with very very thick, white wool. +And knitting needles that to my little fingers were like rolling pins you know and they were long and they got under my arms and I always used to have a tummy ache on knitting day cos I didn't want to go to school. +So that that was make do and mend knitting. +The winter of nineteen forty was extremely bad, in fact most people say that it was the worst winter of the war. +People sleeping in shelters and cellars found them damp, dark and cold. +Blitz tips in a December issue of Woman's Own suggested lighting a candle inside an inverted flower pot and standing an enamel jug mug of water on the top. +This would take the chill off the shelter and provide hot water for a cup of tea in the morning. +Other suggestions included using hot bricks as feet warmers and sewing newspaper inside your corsets. +Between September nineteen forty one and June nineteen forty two, nearly two and a half million homes had been damaged or destroyed. +Sixty percent of the population of London alone were made homeless and during the war there were sixty million changes of address. +At the height of the B one and B two attacks in nineteen forty four, more than two hundred thousand homes per day were made unfit for habitation . +erm this little map here shows a very small area of West Ham where I lived. +And all these little spots denote some kind of bomb or landmine. +And that is only within about two miles you know an area of about two miles square. +So if you multiply that by the area of London plus all the other big cities that were damaged and the coastline. +They still find them quite frequently don't they? +Mm. +building si building developers and they sort of stop because they've found another unexploded bomb. +Yes. +I went to my old school in West Ham recently to talk to the children there and er the master to me that they've got a bomb trail. +And that's part of the geography +Oh. +their course. +They walk round from the school and they've got a map of the places where the bombs dropped so +Wh which school was that? +This was Home Road School now Cumberland School. +But it's been demolished this year. +That's in Plaistow. +And er erm they saw me on the you know television programme and they asked me to go go to the school and +Oh yes. +talk to them about er pre-war period there and er I very much enjoyed it. +I got a lot of letters from the children there and which was very gratifying. +The only difference they were very well written but they were signed you know Mohammed and which were names I used to go there. +I started nineteen eighteen +Yes it's the s same school in West Ham that I went to too +I don't know whether other other places have have erm kept that as a part of the I don't know if it's in the national curriculum. +Yes. +. Any, well you'll be interested in there I've got my own personal bombs on there. +The one that damaged the house in which we lived. +between erm oh by the end of the war one in every three dwellings had been demolished. +Millions of people throughout the country lived in buildings which were either due for demolition because they were unsafe, or had received only emergency repairs. +Heating then was difficult owing to fuel rationing and erratic supplies of gas, electricity and water. +Washing and cleaning also caused major problems as soap was rationed, scouring powder in short supply, and dusters, dishcloths and tablecloths were no longer being manufactured. +Crushed eggshells were mixed with scouring agents to make them go further and pot scour scourers were made from old silk stockings crocheted into squares. +A mixture of stale tea leaves and vinegar was used for washing floors and paintwork. +Scraps of soap were saved, grated, moistened with a little oil and water and pressed into a block . +And I had a catalogue the other day from a, an environmental erm agency it wasn't Greenpeace it was something like that that were ac actually now offering these soap savers that we used to have in the war to press your bits of soap into Magazines were full of tips for saving fuel. +Lightbulbs would give out more light if they were washed every week in soapy water. +Water tanks and pipes should be lagged with whatever material was available. +Coal dust should be collected up into strong brown bags, dampened down and used as coal. +Tin cans filled with a mixture of old tea leaves and coal dust gave a lovely glow and plenty of heat. +Further economies could be made by using as few rooms as possible. +Single people or couples living alone were encouraged to join a cookery pool, saving fuel by pooling rations and take it in turns to cook meals for other people in the group. +Only five inches of water was allowed for baths. +In nineteen forty two The Lady proudly announced that the president of the Board of Trade had cut his large bath towels in half and he hoped his sacrifice would be repeated all over the country . +Wasn't much fun either. +What about the British restaurant Brenda? +Yes that was, that was right erm there was a limit to how much you could spend as well wasn't there? +Five shillings wasn't it that you could, no meals allowed if you ate out, you weren't allowed to spend more than five shillings. +And the British restaurant was one, one and six wasn't it? +You could have a complete meal for one and sixpence. +And that wasn't on rations was it? +No, no. +You had to have what they gave you and it was pretty revolting from what I remember. +Do you remember Tommy Hanley's though, er comment. +He goes into a restaurant and he says oh the waiter erm let me see the menu and he looks at the menu and said right, he said. +The waiter said no all off oh send me the usual toast. +Which is what often happened. +All you could get would be toast +Well I, I remember once going into er a British restaurant because it was my birthday and there was trifle on the menu and trifle was some sort of weird jelly thing that was thi instead of sponge it was stale bread and I think it was sort of stewed apple and mock cream but the fact that it it was my birthday and it was trifle you know I just sort of sat there like a queen but I think I'm sure that it tasted quite revolting. +It looked horrible. +And there used to be sort of a mush made from haricot beans too that people said were baked beans and they weren't it was just sort of white mushy erm white haricot beans with a sort of red colouring poured over the top. +But I think you could you could have whatever you could eat for one and sixpence in the, in the British restaurant. +Excuse me I've got not exactly hay-fever but I think I'm going to be sneezing for a few minutes. +Going back to the, the blitz when we were bombed out we erm had to during the day we lived in my aunt's house mother and father and me. +So we had the dining room and a lounge. +And at night our bedroom was the grandstand of Walthamstow dogs st stadium. +Underneath the grandstand. +Oh. +So I've often wondered how safe that was! +I I don't think it was full. +But it felt good. +I mean there was a lot of concrete in it. +Oh we went I remember +So we all walked down the corner there we all had our beds round there everything was laid out. +Buildings. +People used the underground and of course there were the, there were the erm Morrison shelters weren't there that you you had indoors. +Well if anybody wants to see one I've still got my my Morrison shelter. +Well it's got all the basic structure and half the top so if anyone's interested in seeing shelter I've got +Where've you got that? +In my garage . +It's it's a marvellous work bench cos it's very +Oh is that what you use it for? +We have used it in anger oh yes. +It was used in anger because we were living near Sevenoaks when the V one was over the doodlebugs and er they positioned er one of these barrage balloons just near our house you see. +And er one or two got caught up occasionally now and then so we did erm have to go underneath because I was earning too much to get a free one it cost me seven pounds ten and I've got the receipt for it. +It is really my own it wasn't given by the government I paid for it. +So I justify that one. +I think +Britain directed more of her resources towards the war effort than any other nation including Germany. +Recycling of waste was essential and it was the housewives' job another job for her to salvage from her home such things as paper, bones, tin cans, old gramophone records, photographs and negatives, jam jars, rubber and rags. +Each category had to be put in a different container and taken to a collection centre . +And here we've got the pig club and the pig bin with its pig food. +Have you heard of the Tottenham pudding? +Tottenham pudding. +There was a campaign after the war to bring back Tottenham puddings they had somebody in Harlow who was +Well what was, what, what was Tottenham pudding then. +Tottenham pudding was a er a mixture, to, for feeding animals +Oh. +which was collected and +pigs particularly wasn't it? +Pigs, yes. +And er the it was a sort of for, I remember erm only a few years ago in Harlow we had a discussion group there was somebody there and I I think I've still got the piece about that. +They erm wanted to bring it back cos they thought that this was excellent all this erm purpose erm nowadays +Yes, well l think, I think so too +That's how Biss Brothers started out wasn't it? +They used to collect the Tottenham pudding. +Well they my parents used to have it you see cos they kept pigs +That's it. +and it was Bisses who used to bring round Tottenham pudding. +Used to get deliveries of it for the pigs that's how they started up. +They used to bring it round in metal things +bring back Tottenham puddings +and my dad had you know the stuff he used to find in it cutlery all the tea towels and plates and everything else. +It was, it was used used to be stuff from these restaurants and they weren't particular what they threw in it was all these knives and things +But we used to have these, these bins at the end of each road and we used to have to put any scrap or unwanted food in. +And then we had this pig woman who, who erm who wore men's clothes and a big cap and she had a horse and cart. +And she used to come round at night and collect this stuff. +And it used to smell revolting. +I think probably that was probably London but in the north I lived on the north east coast in a very small town and some of I mean my memories are quite different in a way. +I mean I remember the waste paper which was organized by the girl guides and the boy scouts in the town. +erm very much that was the whole Sunday +Yeah. +Yeah well as I say I I lived in the east end of London and that that's how it was done there but I dare say that other places organized it +It probably wasn't economic in the very small town you know probably you know I don't, I don't remember people keeping pigs but if it was collected it probably was collected by the bin at the back door. +Yeah. +Well it was understood that Bisses got most of theirs from restaurants, and all restaurants I think had to sort of hand over all their waste for the war or something. +That's what my, I say my father bred er pigs and supplied the Ministry of Food and I can remember that he had a contract to collect all the erm waste from schools in the area. +But erm they say that he had used to go and collect it and that was what was fed to the pigs. +So as regards waste material fifteen tons of scrap metal would make one medium sized tank or two bombers. +From nineteen forty a compulsory campaign deprived public parks, gardens and squares of their ornamental railings and private homes of their front gates and fences. +All aluminium saucepans including those from Buckingham Palace here collected in July nineteen forty but unfortunately it was not of the right grade and so housewives then suffered for the rest of the war and having to cook with inferior pans. +After Japan's entry into the war all imports of rubber from the far east were suspended. +Woman's Own produced a rubber rhyme which sounds rather vulgar to encourage its readers to part with their old rubber corsets . +I don't know if any of you are old enough to remember the sort of rubber corsets that were worn in those days. +erm those of you who had mothers who were young in the twenties will probably recall seeing them because they were rather tubular almost like a rubber tube, with small holes punched in for circulation. +And they were the sort of corsets that gave you the the straight boyish look that was necessary for the clothes of the twenties and the early thirties which were cut on the cross. +And so a lot of women continued to wear these erm rubber garments. +In fact on erm on one of the erm sheets that I've brought up there's a notice of how to repair them with bits of cycle inner tube. +.So the erm Woman's Own rubber rhyme erm begins Aahs for the runs and I modestly blush, aahs for the runs in your girdle. +May I suggest if the thing is worn out it will help us to jump the last hurdle. +Paper was collected in every form. +It was desperately needed. +In the first months of the war Herbert Morrison had requisitioned thousands of papier mache coffins for emergency use in bombing raids on London alone. +One hundred tons of paper was needed in the planning and construction of a battle ship. +Magazines and newspapers reduced the size and number of their pages, cinema, theatre, bus, tram and train tickets became small and flimsy. +Used envelopes were recycled using stick on economy labels. +Bank statements, cheque book stubs and private receipts could be returned to banks for shredding. +And interesting but only interesting novels could be taken to the post office for distribution to the armed forces. +Non fiction books and sheet music went for salvage. +Very little wrapping paper or other packaging was allowed and paper bags and clean newspapers were carefully saved for shopping trips. +Newspapers were also cut into squares and used for toilet paper. +Butter and margarine papers were kept for greasing and lining cake tins etcetera and I still do it. +And I still fold up my paper bags. +Rags were more difficult to collect as housewives were putting scrap material to so many other uses. +We're wearing them, one housewife remarked . +This comment was not entirely facetious and this brings us back to the remarks I made earlier about erm the use of Tampax and the government trying to persuade women to erm use internal sanitary protection. +Because of the shortage of raw materials the government was running a propaganda campaign to persuade women to wear tampons during menstruation. +Tampax advertised a trial offer of two tampons in a box with an explanatory leaflet . +Now the reason that erm they, they were trying to promote the use of tampons was that one couldn't get cotton to make cotton wool and so it wasn't possible any, any erm er erm sanitary garments that were made of cotton were commandeered and used for people in essential war work or the armed forces. +And so there was this campaign to persuade women to change. +Women who preferred who preferred traditional methods of sanitary protection either had to stand in long queues in order to buy just one or two towels you couldn't even buy a packet, you could just buy one or two or make do with other methods. +One of the most common particularly in low socio-economic groups was squares of cle an rag which could be soaked, boiled and re-used. +But when the make do and mend clubs were told that even worn out soft collars and shirt cuffs would make maps for tank commanders, they responded well and over a thousand tons of rag was collected between nineteen forty two and nineteen forty three. +Bones were used for making explosives, glue and paint for aeroplane mark markings, and proved the most difficult of all to collect. +The Ministry of Supply asked for any kind of bone except the backbone of a kipper. +Housewives were told to hand them in after they had been used in the stock pot and fed to the dog, after, after which the bones were to be washed and dried in the oven after the gas and electricity had been turned off. +Then they were to be put in a tin or other suitable container. +In November nineteen thirty nine, the national savings campaign was set up. +It was estimated that in August nineteen forty the war was costing between six and seven million pounds a day and that a great proportion of it must come from the savings of the people. +Savings groups were formed all over the country and children ran their own campaigns in schools. +There were also special savings weeks. +By nineteen forty three individuals were putting aside almost one quarter of their disposable incomes. +But it was always tempting to indulge in whatever small luxuries were available and people were constantly warned to be aware of the squanderbug . +There he is up there, wanted for sabotage. +He was a horrid little rat like creature and he had a big swastika on his stomach. +And he was always persuading people to spend more money. +You see there there he is telling this lady don't listen to her she runs a savings group, the squander bug works for Hitler. +The squanderbug alias Hitler's pal, known to be at large in certain parts of the kingdom . +So you had to be careful of him. +So world war two ended with the surrender of Japan on the twelfth of December nineteen forty five. +On the home front it was time to make new plans fo r the future. +But for some people the austerity period which followed brought it even more years of deprivation and hardship than those of the war. +They were bitterly cold winters, resulting in fuel restrictions and cuts in gas and electricity supplies. +Some new foods were introduced including snook, a fish product from South South Africa, and whale meat. +But in nineteen forty nine there was less meat available than in nineteen forty four. +Bread was rationed in nineteen forty six and food and clothes rationing continued like make do and mend until well into the nineteen fifties . +I conclude +went through all the, all the motions of bread rationing but the last time er they, they cancelled it. +Did they? +So bread wasn't rationed although everybody er was allocated a bread ration +There was an allocation, yes. +According where you although it didn't actually come into practice. +You didn't have coupons? +No, no. +Unless anybody else can confirm that. +It got right near it, but erm +Finally there's just the there's the famous dig for victory poster and er is your journey really necessary. +And erm watch it all the things that one had to do to one's car if one was able to use a car in the blackout. +Well thank you very much.. +I was in the army and you were thinking of a different country. +Cos I was in the army we had good food and were away from all the bombing. +Uhuh. +And we went to Frinton of all places and you could go to the chippie and get fish and chips and everything. +It was a different war from, from what you're talking about. +Yes. +Several people were called up er they were, they were given a white feather were given a white feather for exactly the reason that you mentioned +so they were going to have an easy time. +. +If you were in London erm you were called up give gave you gave you a white feather cos you were going in the army.. +I missed most of the first war with him actually. +We didn't know it but we were together +Lancaster. +I was up at Lancaster when Liverpool got it. +I was at Liverpool in nineteen er forty one May. +Er at Wood er Lord Wood, Wood Lord Wood you know the pie p person +Walton? +Yes Lord Walton, his home er when Liverpool got bombed and and the ship went up. +And all we got was we slept through that. +And then we came down to Frinton and Felixstowe when London so. +You know when people talk about the war we feel dreadful! +Well there was one sad part wasn't it that when I was on my in training during the and the rockets and so in classrooms and had a lecturer talking to us and erm this lad come in with a message from the teleprint and erm give it to the instructor, and he'd call a name and the chap would go out. +Pretty horrible. +Yes. +Somebody from London that'd lost their family +Yes but it was, it was just like that when one went to school. +And you went to school in the morning but never knew whether your house was going to be there when you got home for dinner or whether you'd still have a mum and dad and +I got er two letters actually. +I got a letter to say dad was in hospital and we had a buzz bomb and it wasn't too bad and er don't worry. +And I god so I dashed round, got a long weekend it turned out to be marvellous. +Came home and she said well what have you come home for? +Says well dad's in hospital. +Yes he had tummy trouble. +And the first letter told me that he'd got stomach upset. +The second letter told me so I thought they'd been bombed out. +Er one of my worst experiences actually was going to school and found that when we walk when I went into the classroom there was only me and two other children. +And the rest of the children had been killed in the night. +They they all lived in in a small area that had been completely bombed. +They were just three of us. +No no no that was in erm near the docks erm in West Ham, Stratford way, yes. +Yes. +The Hawsfield Road is er is er three hundred and fifty people. +Yes. +Children, erm. +You might like to look at the erm the West Ham bombing map. +Well I'm afraid ladies and gentlemen we're going to have to stop now, rather reluctantly. +Thank you very much really interesting. +Thank you. +and it's very interesting reminiscences from people in the audience. +Thank you very much indeed. +And I'll see you again . + +Okay +questioning technique. +Er okay it's a little bit about questions we should ask so in summary then what sort of questions should we ask the group? +Okay What type of questions? +Just testing you. +Remember? +Over questions? +Which one shall we avoid then? +If we should use what sort of to vary the style of questioning? +If you ask a question to the group who's intending who can tend to ask for it? +You just throw out a question . +Well let's see er what did you do last night? +No one answers +Either no one answers or, or what? +The person you're looking at. +The person you're looking at. +So don't forget you can use by, it doesn't work with you lot, but it +You know I save a lot of time preparing that one okay. +Now what d'ya think the answer to that is? +And this husky voice from the other side +which is another thing you have to look out for in training if you're asking . +There's one or two things that are naturally more forthcoming aren't there? +Yeah? +The more readily answered questions, nothing wrong with it, it's great but again er you fall into patterns don't you I'm sure you on training courses we know that er one or two people are content to have the answer, so what will the rest of us do? +There's nothing wrong, you know, but again it seems the nomination of people. +Okay so ah the next question the remarks anyone looking across at him we put a bit of pressure on them and they take interest. +So nomination of the person. +Post is the way of nomination and also direct nomination. +A little tip for you I mean one of the things I do when I'm writing a training manual or something like that, I will actually write my open questions in really bold letters on the script. +You know I, I, I mean I haven't written this one and it makes it quite difficult for me to see some of the questions, but I actually write I think that's the most important thing in training is asking questions er and I'll perhaps bring down some examples to show you. +Exactly the easy things to forget about especially when time's against you if you get to answer questions don't ask the questions, what's gonna happen? +Don't understand. +Don't be frightened of asking testing questions. +Don't be frightened of what else? +Performance of silence, give them a chance. +What's the other side of questions, we talked very briefly about questions to the group, what's the other thing we should be looking at? +Yeah. +The swine's asked you questions now. +What should you do with questions from the group? +You genius, you should be here. +Why do that? +It's another way of +Right. +Yeah? +Or d or else, what else? +because again as adults we realize that if every we ask a question to the trainer you're asking questions to him and they keep answering them, what does it mean we can do as trainees? +Switch off?sitting there with a row of people. +What would happen then if that happened?you know fifteen minute monologue. +We all knew the answer,. +So good idea for questions from the group reflective at the group. +So ask me a question. +how to train +How could you use a +Mm +I dunno. +How often do you think we should use training session? +needs. +Yeah. +What would you use it on? +It depends on the situation +Probably you're right yeah, I suspect. +What would you do? +It's all about technical stuff I mean a lot of you do technical training. +Erm you know people know the answers questions or they've got an idea material of your own experience you know a lot more than they do, but it's good technique to throw it back to the group. +Alright when you get a question. +Very useful technique for handling er people are trying to catch you out. +You get you do that to people yourself training the easiest way to do it is group and if they don't know the answer you don't look such a pratt do you? +Behind you it is something that people don't know you don't know. +I think you're honest it's the people respect you more if you say I'm sorry, I don't know the answer, I'll find out for you and then you say tell you what John, can you write that up on that issues form pad or you know another bit of flipchart paper, we'll come back to that. +Yeah? +What you gotta do though? +At some stage or other. +another group. +The group, yeah, alright? +Okay. +Now I suspect that when you do your role in place there won't be many questions for the group alright? +You'll be sitting there saying to me . +Er certainly not today anyway, but tomorrow you might find that erm +We'll ask you questions purely because you know that you know yeah you know it's good to see how you get on with it etcetera yeah. +Do you tell people when you questions like +Well what do you think we should do +What? +I know that. +Another use you see of defective deflecting the question. +I'm sorry that was very unfair. +Do you forgive me? +Yes. +Good question. +Well what do the others think, I mean yeah it's a sort of when should you let trainees answer your questions? +It depends on the question right to the end relevant as you go along. +I know it's early in the morning still. +Like Wonderwoman now in her get up. +Don't worry that bridge has fallen down . +Okay, erm it depends on the session. +Think about training though, if somebody's got a question to ask what will about sort of something very early on and they don't get the opportunity to answer you what might happen +Yeah. +Does that make sense? +So really it would be I suspect the answer to your question you don't want to keep saying any questions but perhaps what's the answer. +questions. +What . +That's right. +So where might you say Okay look er what I'd like to do is ask questions. +If you've got a question, shout, shout out to start you on and that start up encourages cos it so often happens yeah bop bop bop bop bop and somebody is still basically looking for their rucksack while all the rest are up the, half way up the mountain. +danger of sort of like if you've gotta time like yeah sort of thing somebody else questions ten minutes. +Brilliant. +Completely lost it haven't you. +Yeah, brilliant, that's a, that's a good technique to take on bribe one of your colleagues to answer the questions +at least ten minutes er +Totally unrelated, yeah. +Now there's another thing questions what I'm saying is that's something to take away with you, or perhaps you won't get the chance er try now er . +Certainly you should encourage people to answer questions. +Most people think that they're being stupid if they have to ask a question they think that everyone else isn't probably thinking the same thing. +Chances are they are I think you owe it to your trainer to let them know. +So building new introductions ask questions by definition build in. +I would suggest that you build in a few nice easy open questions at the beginning of the session. +You know like you might be doing some technical training, they say what's er anyone know what motor insurance is? +Yeah. +If you're running a training session on motor insurance, what might be a nice easy question to begin to encourage people to participate? +Right. +okay let's expand that, yeah think about the beginning of the training session where you want to involve them. +Are we all drivers here? +Or how many of you are drivers? +Two of you. +Hello ! +Earth calling moon base one to eight . +How many of you are drivers? +Hurrah! +What's our next question? +Have you got motor insurance? +car . +What er what could we ask then? +Apart from have you got no, no, no, no, no cos that might under pressure. +Hey? +Yeah, well that training session now +what sort of cover have you got? +What sort of, what sort of cover have you got? +What does that tell you as a trainer? +what sort of cover available. +Yeah, so give you some knowledge about the level of your group wouldn't it and what does it give chance to do? +Yeah, it gives you something nice and easy to tell you about, cos we've all got we all roughly know what sort of cover we've got. +We can build up from there some of the er some of the er exclusions or something yeah something like that you can develop it from that +yeah? +See what I'm saying is ask a nice open question an easy one at the beginning that you know most people are bound to understand you get a lot of participation and then start building it up . +We will develop questioning techniques as we go through your training sessions. +I think it's more when we actually see people doing it, but it's all, it's a nice idea to give you a little bit of basic just to think about, and again we won't be expecting this to be demonstrated to the on this afternoon's role page, you done all your preparations for that haven't you. +Perhaps tomorrow. +So you'd like to take one and pass it on to me Margaret. +So we've looked at asking question visuals We've got involving trainees which, with which we talking about involving trainees think about this side of it erm I suppose this is one of the best ways to show Training should be chunky The idea is that you put in your input yeah you talked around a subject and give you some guidelines, then we get a chance to practise the participation. +So if you go back to the sort of where we gave it five or six headings yeah or three to six headings you should be aiming say well I'll input a bit of information on that side of it and at the end of that little section I'll build in some practice in participation and the participation can be any of those ones you've put in there on that list you gave us early on er practical allocations +brainstorming, testing, role playing and you get exercises, whatever. +It's simply to test cos if this side of the graph, if that one there is knowledge this one here is time. +If you went from there to there without any practice or participation, since we've already said you might have left half your audience here and in actual fact so your practice and participation needs to be built in. +You do a little bit of input well I say a little bit, you do some input, practice and participation then build on that, okay? +Let's move on to our next section. +Bit more practice and participation, input, practice and participation. +We use visuals give you something to focus on you can see everything's come out no wonder you . +Look. +I can't really +This is my favourite slide of the whole course. +Some concentration . +What do you reckon the concentration span of most adults is? +nine +Nine? +Much less aha ! +It varies from person to person obviously now know that Laura is talk to her ask a question after nine minutes erm absorbed to knowledge. +This is for a straight lecture, you know sometimes people stand up to give you a lecture. +just talk at you training and they reckon that after ten minutes look at that tern! +So after about thirty five minutes what are you actually taking in? +Absolutely zilch. +So why do we do lectures? +Doesn't make any sense at all does it? +In training though you can still have the same problem erm you know perhaps towards the end of the session you've probably seen it as and I, I'm guilty of it myself cos we're trying to rap on through it as quickly as possible so we get in ya way by six o'clock or that so we break all the rules late in the day +You sort of +And you as well. +Right erm all the rules people are tired etcetera so their rates of and knowledge is probably downhill anyway and then we talk about thirty five minutes just to speed up make sure we train them, we've given them all the input. +What happens? +You test it out the next morning isn't it interesting you remembered as proof of the pudding. +What did you remember?the training side, it's pretty well the objectives. +What about the last we did yesterday actually designers and training, it's quite a, it's quite a struggle that had a long day, been sitting here for a couple of hours I dunno it seems longer and there you are and you're actually struggling +You got the notes that's part of training as well, you can refer back to that, you struggle. +So they reckon that after about ten minutes if people haven't been involved we haven't thrown out a question or something like that people start thinking about other things and there's been actually a bit of er analytical research on this that shows that people think about three things after about ten minutes they just switch off. +Any ideas what this might mean? +Yeah, the environment, yeah. +Could be, very +they're hungry. +Food, yeah. +. +That's quite a frightening thought really when I'm up front here. +I'll leave you with that thought. +I should have turned the tape recorder off for that shouldn't I! +Tell you your mind does wander doesn't it, yeah? +I mean mine does, but mine +mine does and I'm training, so you know what chance have you got. +Alright, so there's a couple of ideas for you, including er getting the participation going, but don't give too much of the verbal. +What are the other techniques you do, if you've do a bit of I mean as a sales trainer, I tend to walk around quite a lot and talks about what? +Yeah, but what does it do? +What do you do? +You have to focus +You follow me round don't you, people you know you see them he's gonna ask me a question. +Also, that's what that's the training staff we know from experience that our moving targets are . +Think about . +So another thing we said on our list or your list what you put up here was visuals. +Visuals are very important in terms of information recall I modelled for this a couple of years ago. +What does that tell us? +Yeah. +They reckon that of the information our senses receive, seventy five percent of it is received visually. +Reading, yeah you look round at people and then somebody comes rushing in through the door and you've never seen then before, what do you do? +You just weigh up and take so much information in through your eyes don't you, perhaps this person's in a panic or they look angry, yeah, this sort of stuff, do it very, very naturally. +Seventy five percent is taken in through the eyes of which we're gonna recall about fifty percent, so fifty percent of that seventy five percent yeah? +Through the years though more erm through the years we actually only receive thirty percent of our input I suppose one of the examples are and then we only remember twenty percent of that thirteen percent again the danger of you know every remembers this +Well you've seen this before you remember it straight away. +Erm th the, the thing I think about is do you remember the Green Cross Code? +Tufty Club? +Yeah, things like that. +What was, what is the Bre Green Cross Code? +No you've gotta be a bit more precise though. +Stop, look and listen yeah. +Good, good. +So you remember what you're supposed to do. +What was, what was the actual little rhyme? +Something like that yeah. +Can you remember I mean what they sa what the actual steps as it were when the, you know, when the kids stop look and listen when you do your look left again. +concentrate +yeah and also kids tend to listen. +Most accidents happen as kids run out in the road without looking, alright. +Because most kids nowadays are brought up with constant noise of traffic and so covering ears doesn't mean anything does it?because they're gonna get the information and absorb much more information none of it, none of any use but so don't get much information from . +This is a very informative handout. +You know that sort of thing you can +Right. +a little bit else about making it interesting don't worry about yawning in my courses, at least it shows you're still alive. +Can you share with Margaret please. +Little again we'll develop these as practices more, they're more dynamic to develop when we actually watch and see your role plays. +Presentation techniques, a few things here that might help you in terms of making it interesting as it were and the actual delivery of your training your posture, keep your posture erect, but relaxed I don't really know what that means but er er stand up. +What's the da what would show if you're standing up, what would demonstrate that you're not relaxed? +Like this. +No I know what you're doing that means you're relaxed when you're actually training. +What else then? +I +Right. +Movement. +Simply nervous trainers tend to stand in one spot,feeted feet rooted like a tree to the ground. +Move around,engaging the groups are more involved. +Again it's true though isn't it? +People will stand there and they will clutch something, you see their knuckles are white you know and these sort of things erm or they'll have their notes you know here, and let's be honest about it yeah I can remember when I started training I think you know you used to cling to your notes a three feet flipchart, you know what can't you see? +Can't let go of this. +Anyway, and all this sort of stuff, so it's all about getting yourself prepared and knowing what you're gonna say etcetera etcetera. +Does th anyone worry about using notes, it doesn't make you feel as though the trainers know what they're doing does it? +If you see the trainers looking at their notes . +What might make a difference though in terms of posture? +Okay so erm I think it's also very important that we look at gestures. +Important gestures cannot be able too often and this restricts communication. +We use gestures for emphasise normal conversation about what with our hands. +gesture in front of a group exactly as if you were having an animated conversation with a friend nothing more, nothing less. +Do you understand that? +What would that demonstrate, posture, terrible isn't it? +If you're talking about a subject that means gestures what should you be doing? +Yes, course you should shouldn't you. +So what's, what sort of gestures should we use when we're up front? +Don't be rude! +gestures, big ones, enough to you know you don't want to take off but open gestures, get your hands moving, doesn't matter does it. +Er again it's a sort of you know like that form that format don't worry about it if you do it, it's just that sometimes people will say it's the change of gesture. +Get some movement out there we had a young, a young lady who er she name and she's up front in the cabinet you know every opportunity she had she was looking for round the room, but not sort of in the round the outside all the time and it's just that she wanted to be with a group of people all the time. +It was great, it was you know so, so when training rooms are set up we used to sit here behind this barrier as it were, there's you, there's me. +. So usually use gestures then it's got some things here, it's got some little matchstick men on the next page. +the first one. +Keeping your hands in your pockets What's the danger of your hands in your pockets? +I've never heard it described that way before but there you go er +You jingle your change, dead right. +Er again after you do that very same thing erm you know jingle your change and one of them he said that I reckon you got three pound eighty. +He reckons he's got six pounds you know and it's just so distracting. +Keep your hands out of your pocket handcuffed behind your back +Yeah and what, what, what do we think she means that you know what do you stuffy, yeah? +Pompous. +Pompous, yeah does that ? +Might do because it's not close gestures differ. +What are the others keeping your arm or keeping your arms crossed, or in a fig leaf position. +If you would like to demonstrate a fig leaf position. +Andy, well stand up +demonstrate a fig leaf position. +I don't know a fig leaf +Cos I've no idea what it looks like +I'm sure it's like this or is it like that? +No, no no that doesn't look a fig leaf, does that look like a fig leaf position to you? +Yeah +Yeah it must be, yeah. +Quite interesting really. +It's just that exaggeration because you know basically . +Right or wringing your hands nervously. +Eye contact, eye contact. +What's it mean by eye contact? +What's good eye contact? +It's good though isn't it? +Eye contact. +definitely trying to avoid my eyes now there's a few eyes round here that look more like route maps of the M twenty five! +Erm,eye contact if people avoid eye contact what's it mean? +They lack confidence. +They lack confidence, simple as that and one of the things is that as a group you come in and you probably look at people when you and you look at the trainers and the idea is that early on people can do, can keep some eye contact gonna stare you out but just keeping your eyes and don't flit away and also when you're under pressure at this stage his eyes challenge you or something like that, then your eyes go down. +So again it's just thinking about the eyes the eye the beginning . +It's says rule of thumb that eye contact is one to three seconds per person +Ah that's you look. +Marty Feldman does anyone remember Marty Feldman when one eye went this way and one eye went the other?that you know watching this happen . +Using your voice your voice I'm not gonna be too worried about this erm monotone monotone yeah. +I'm not too worried about it because erm a, a lot of people natural accents, regional accents and that so others come over as quite monotone don't they sort of thing. +It's a big problem, it's just that fluctuations you do, if you are aware you've got some . +Some trainers go down . +What else have we got talking too fast. +Now suspect that this is something that most people fall into on their first few training sessions which is all to be about this er er er have you got any questions and most people I was gonna say good morning, but you got a paragraph down now and it's all about slowing down and you can speed up as you go through but it's certainly the opening slowing down. +Slow down, slow yourself down in training sessions. +Yeah. +We had we had a training session for ourselves like you know +Right erm right what was I saying yeah erm slow down, what's the other way have a drink of water yeah. +Breathing, it does help you know sort of you know morning everyone . +Big gulps of it much easier. +answer the question nice and easy question slow it down. +Problems with volume on the last page erm I don't that affect most of you erm you won't be, you won't be talking to cavernous places will you? +If, if you do any of your training it will tend to be rooms about this size. +. So before I talk through some of those, cos I think that some of those er if we just gave you the handout you've gotta read it training group seems to be far more aware of things like your body language . +Is that yours? +Er yeah. +getting fed up Okay just to finish up now, because we're gonna be moving on in a minute. +There's a couple of handouts here which I'm not gonna go into, but there again somebody might think about when you're running group training and there's some, there's some I dunno er points with a few heading samples, so I'm gonna take one and pass them on take one pass them on which I really no, no and there's one over there So you've got involving trainees we've done humour we've touched upon, brainstorming we've done before. +Testing role plays I've sent you a handout on that exercises and there's a handout on that . +Practical applications a thought about practical applications we need to build in practical applications don't we? +Actually give people chance to try what we've been talking about. +Any thoughts about that? +What should we be doing with practical applications? +Past experience. +Yeah,past experience to find out the level they're at at the moment. +Anything else? +Oh no, it's incredible. +Again on this very course a while back it was only three people in the group in the week that I was watching and the guy who was running the session had, had worked the equation wrongly on the rating or whatever and the other two, never seen him before in their lives were saying that's wrong and he started getting really annoyed. +it was really funny group after it was so funny er +with his permission he thought it was funny he saw the funny side of it as well, but they had this big argument for five minutes cos he thought what he'd done was right and he said Jesus, I've been using this for three years for the training in the branch er it makes you wonder doesn't it erm but if you're gonna do practical applications you've gotta give people relevant examples perhaps you start off basics with an example that is correct and then you start building on that don't you then you start giving them the deviations and all this sort of stuff. +Don't deal with deviations first cos they'll never learn but build in lots of applications either by questions or by actual exercise. +Last thing just briefing cos this is designing the training session is your notes. +What sort of notes what sort of things are you gonna do within your running of training sessions for a group training session or it could be one-to-one doesn't really matter. +What are the sort of things you need to think about when you're putting in notes together script or . +Right, that's a good idea bullet points in large print. +Cos you know all the content don't you? +A lot of the training you do you probably only need to write bullet points. +What might you write under your bullet point? +It's just the yeah you've got your main point and there might be one two three four things a bit more information, yeah. +So that you don't deviate or forget things. +What other things might you do in your notes? +Think of some questions to ask. +Yeah, that's good, good. +So you actually write down questions so much going on you can't be expected to remember everything and if you've got just you know sort of questions written down the page like what is your name, it's simple as that it gets you to do, what? +Involves the trainee. +What else might you do? +Bullet points, questions. +Okay, so er what have we got there erm use supports use of support yeah material another thing you might think about is time. +Time Basically that's it, how you do it is up to you, the danger of a, a script of a basic script is what? +Right, yeah you're stuck to it aren't you and if you move away from it, where are you, if you gotta go back to it, you might have done this for t for today, don't worry but you know, but it's not, we're not gonna mark you down or anything like that, the danger of is what? +It's very and you're gonna just sat down reading it. +And some of the other things what about you know erm . +Chances are you're not gonna use it or or not use it. +You write all this screed down and then you never look at it. +I'll give you examples perhaps of none, none of these I must admit I, I don't, I don't think, they're not my style I much more my page my training tend to have just two or three points on it rubber stamps on the side flipchart all this sort of stuff big question . +Er it's just a thought to say well if I, if, if this training is so important I will use it over and over again, it makes sense to save the preparation time four or five months down the line by having a script and now only you can up with your examples. +I'll just check what samples there is this would be more of er this one that's coming over now is entirely the session keep it flowing, there's your content and your method of the syndicate O H P, flipchart. +So you're restricting yourself . +That might be having and again we're not looking for you to do these or follow these patterns for tomorrow, you do whatever you feel comfortable, yeah. +There's a blank page it's okay I might be able to use that er as a structure for more for when you've gotta run training courses at a lot of the time and sample three is just another side that's erm that one of sample two is landscape goes across the page this is. +What? +This example. +I've been filling time wherever I am. +Haven't I team? +Yeah. +What have we been talking about football last night er just an example of erm some of the scripts that we use down here. +You see look here's a script all typed out. +You know a lot probably to do this. +You see there's not much on the page you know just some bullet points. +That wasn't it +What +They're being rude, they're being really rude. +Are they? +no chance +out of all that stuff there what's the most important things? +I know if I say that Notes are really important Alright. +In summary while we're waiting for our to come back, if she is coming back we don't know do we. +Designing training we started yesterday we are finishing the session now so in your opinion what are the most important things we should do first when designing training? +Right measuring, understanding. +Yeah. +You've thought of another element there which I'm gonna write down, feedback. +When do we want feedback? +Stages. +So we want stages don't we? +How should we design our training in terms of stages? +Come and draw it, come and draw up and show us. +Draw it? +Yeah. +Come and show us how you do it I'll give you a red pen Do you remember that earlier we said participation +The +That'll do for me. +You, oh no, yeah, it's alright yeah alright +Thank you. +Not so bad is it? +So input and then what? +Participation, participation. +repeat the process stages. +Anything else we should think about designing training? +. +summary at the end of the session. +Alright, let's we've looked at design of training as the first step you know identifying training needs and then design. +On the areas that we might like to think about design and also delivering training is the different ways people learn and to do that go through learning styles . +laugh. +much done. +Do we need that questionnaire cos erm +Yes +cos certain members tend +Oh would you like to go and get your questionnaire those that haven't got them. +That's me. +Well I've got +Has anyone had an actual break or ? +Have you scored scored more +Yeah. +Yeah, great. +Yeah. +Have you, have you done it? +Yeah I've done it, but I didn't bring it. +Oh right. +You've all got yours questionnaires yet. +You didn't last time did you?do something this week lunch today Have you got it? +I just, I just honest to God I hadn't realized at all the guy was sort of and says er oh it's probably I said no I'm sure I was really cheesed . +It was awful he said go and get it it'll be in there and I just went er and I could see it all. +A nightmare and we had to actually ring the emergency number and in an emergency ring this number +Yeah +she rang it and this bell started going +Oh no. +Have you all scored your questionnaires? +Yep. +and you've +Oh yeah, we've got the analysis we've got the questionnaires Okay what we're gonna look at now is we gonna look at the work of Honey and Munnford and what Honey and Munnford spent a lot of time researching was people's learning sides and they spent a lot of research and what they found out is that there are four different learning sides and we all learn in different ways. +So far Martin's taken you through how to put together a logical and effective training session. +What we also need to think about is we learn in one way, but our delegates may actually learn in a slightly different way. +in a minute so what we're gonna have a look at is we're gonna have a look your identified preferred learning side and the questionnaire will actually help you do that. +I'll tell you what Honey and Munnford actually found and what their findings were, we'll also think about some more practical applications that if people learn in different ways, what impact does this have on the trainers. +It does have some impact I'm sure that you've been the training session and you thought it's really good, really got a lot out of it and you're quite surprised to see someone sitting next to you didn't like that much at all, you thought hmm wonder why that is because I found the content really interesting and it could have been the content matter didn't really sort of do anything for the people, it could have been the way it was put together, put over and the way it was actually structured. +I'm sure you've also experienced sessions you thought something somebody's delivered in one session and found it really interesting you've got a lot from it, and yet somebody else comes into the same subject matter and you think that you know wasn't very interesting didn't, you know, didn't, I didn't really wanting to learn. +The key reasons before that is that they've actually put the across in the way that's not totally compatible with learning side. +What I'd like to do to start with is I'd like to actually put the scores up, put your scores up on the charts and then we'll look at what, what exactly they mean, what does A stand for but what does it all mean. +So if you put the scores up first then we'll do some, have some discussion about what they mean. +So Margaret if we start with you. +Eight fourteen six six. +Eight fourteen six six. +Thank you. +Mark? +Fifteen sixteen nine sixteen. +Okay, John? +Twelve sixteen thirteen seventeen +Andy? +Five sixteen thirteen thirteen. +Marie? +Nine fifteen twelve thirteen. +Nora? +Five fourteen nine twelve. +Sixteen two three +Two three and nine? +Yeah +Two nineteen ten and thirteen +We've got quite a variety here haven't we? +Right what I'll do now is I'll introduce what means and then we'll go back and think abut the impact that they have on training. +So, and I've got a handout on this . +If we go to the first style of A this is an activist and some of you have got high scores here we've got sixteen fifteen and twelve these are, these are hard activist . +What Honey and Munnford found is that people learn in basically four ways, the first of which is is the activist. +Now what they're saying is that, what they said is activist action learn best when they get the opportunity to experience new sort of problems, situations, opportunities when they're doing something quite new when they're sort of involved in very much you know here and now activities when they're sort of like business games, exercises, role plays, team tasks that they can sort of get you know really get involved with themselves then there's lots of action and they're quite short and sharp, so can move on to something else. +Activists also like being thrown in the deep end they quite like the challenge of being thrown in and sink or swim and learn from the experience, rather than actually talking about too much and then a little bit of action later. +Activists like things which involve other people as well so they like team work, they like team activities, they like discussion groups they enjoy the sort of bouncing ideas off other people. +Activists also like they love the opportunity in training to have a go but they do like getting involved, they like a action. +They also like this sort of excitement and you know when things chop and change and there's sort of erm almost like a crisis situation and lots of excitement, lots of activity, activists actually thrive on that, they like that sort of challenge that stimulates their learning. +They also like things which are quite so if the activity involving chairing a meeting, doing a role play, doing a presentation although they may be nervous they actually enjoy that, they find they gain a lot from that and they also like activities where to an extent there's a freedom from constraints, policy structures, they don't like to feel bound because if you think about it a lot of are actually exploring deep end situations trying new things out, they don't like to feel that constrained. +So that's the activist. +A couple of you have got high marks John and you've got high activist, you're higher than the others, how do you feel about that? +Yeah it's pretty +Yeah. +I'm not so sure about liking the presentations though. +Oh. +Well like you say you feel nervous about it at first but once you do it, you've got . +So there are th that side of learning there are people who like to have a go who want action. +You quite like erm learning from, from experience. +When I was working at British Airways we used to do a lot of technical training and erm it was sort of on er airline regulation, stuff like that and you could always tell the activists cos they didn't really want to all they wanted to do was to get on the computers and actually trying out things out themselves, they piece of furniture the activists don't want to read the instructions, they want to start putting it together and then they'd learn from actually putting it together rather than them reading the instructions and regulation training you could always tell the activist cos they sort of always like chopping every bit, they just want to they just want to get on the computers and start inputting numbers and they'll actually learn, they, they prefer to do that and then somebody can come round and help them out when they get into trouble rather than some of the other which perhaps like to more up front and that's the activist. +Now we move on to the reflector and Irene in particular has got a very high a lot of the others . +Quite high. +So what's the reflector all about? +Well as a the reflector is they actually learn from situations where they get the opportunity to sit back to watch to think about what's being said so they digest in information for themselves. +situation they sort of they sit back they think about and assimilate it. +They also like activities as well reflectors, where they can stand back and watch and listen to others as well and sometimes within a group activity they actually like to pull back and listen to what others are saying. +It doesn't mean to say they don't like participating, but they'd like to you know see what the group view is before they put in their own views so they're analyzing, thinking. +A lot of people with high reflector scores like to think before they act. +They assimilate, they analyze, they consider and then they make a decision or act on things. +It's similarly with similar to the situation for training while the activist would like to get straight into a role of play, the reflector wants to stand back think about it, think about how they're going to, what they're going to do etcetera before they actually participate or get involved. +Activists actually enjoy activities within training while they can carry out some research where they can analyze and investigate situations. +The things like a case study where you have to gather lots of information and analyze it, I mean that's just what the reflectors like, cos they want to feel that there's you know they th working is not just it's actually working on some fact. +They also enjoy reviewing experiences so when you've done a role play, the reflector will actually get a lot out of doing feedback, standing back and analyzing what did I do well, what did I do less well and they actually learn a lot from that as well the role play. +They love things which involve producing reports analysis reflectors also like exchanging views with others, they like to think, analyze, formulate an opinion and then have the opportunity to discuss with others. +Reflectors like reaching decisions in their own time and on training courses they actually like to feel that they consider the situation and they don't want feel sort of too rushed before they act. +What I'd like say with these guys there's no right or wrong style, there's no good or bad, we're all different erm and we f we're all a combination of each as well. +Reflector Irene, you've got the highest there what are your views on that? +And you can always tell reflectors in training, cos sometimes you'll think what's happening, nobody else wants participation, reflectors will actually stand back and think well what did they ask for, what do I talk about then and it's always like a delayed response you get a lot of reflectors and we had one course once and we had all high reflector scores and that actually told us a lot about participation cos people weren't disguising any they were thinking about it coming in had time to consider an opinion so that's a reflector. +The next one is the theorist and the highest that we've got here are John and Andy and thirteen. +Marie, you, you're popular on highest scores on reflector as well that I mean you what did you think about that? +The er reflector and the activist actually . +So the theorist so the theorists actually best from activities where something can actually give them a system, a model or a theory or a concept so we've got Andy and John and it was quite interesting Andy when you were saying well whose work is this because you not really behind so you, you actually scored thirteen on that one. +If you can sort of say well that has been proven, this is the research, this is the system, this is the model, theorists actually enjoy that because they think well this isn't just somebody's gut reaction, this is something that somebody spends a long time actually thinking about it considering. +They actually like well argued a sort of elegant prototype concept so if you're gonna present a model theory, they like it sort of well thought through, rather than a half-baked airy-fairy model. +Theorists are very stimulated by sort of quite interesting and new ideas of concept because ultimately a lot of theorists like sort of to be intellectually challenged they like things that they need to really sort of stretch their minds. +Theorists love sort of debating concepts and arguments they don't want to, to, won't accept them at face value, they'll actually challenge them and enjoy the rationale, enjoy discussing them. +They will question. +We have some people on training courses who could tell that they're quite theorists cos question of challenge if you actually put forward some ideas they'll, they'll question them, not in a negative way, but they just want to know well where have these come from and why and why is this and on your training courses what theorists will do is if you're actually putting together forward and processing procedures that C U follow, they'll question why they won't just accept it, they'll actually question it, not in the negative way but they'll want to understand it. +As we said they like being stretched intellectually so if you can put forward some concept theories they, they actually enjoy that. +They like a clear structure, they're logical, they're analytical and they want things to be delivered in such a way. +They like analyzing and they like sort of practising or getting involved with complex things sort of complex piece of work very, they're really happy in the training session to get involved whereas some people if you put something very hard, they'll actually back away from it won't they cos they think well this is new, I don't really understand this, whereas theorists will ac they actually enjoy they enjoy the stretch they enjoy the challenge. +Those two John and Andy you were the highest on that John what are your views on that? +Yeah. +Andy? +Yeah. +I'm actually, I'm quite high on as theorist as well and I like to write everything out in full and I clear structures and if I go to training sessions and they're all over the place, it's such a in about five minutes and I have to say hang on a minute it might not be structured in the way that you like it but you can actually learn from it. +And the last one is the pragmatist erm we've got Mark, John and Marie who have come out quite high on the on the The pragmatist th the title that you suggest what the situations you actually learn best from and pragmatists like training its practical +job if there's gonna be an exercise or a they like it to be a real-life practical situation, almost like a simulation of the job rather than something that's er for example if you were to do a case study, pragmatists would like it be in an insurance-related case study and it could be related to their job very . +If you were going to say a travel industry case study and insurance industry prefer it to be quite practical. +They like training which they can actually apply, that has practical applications so say if you're thinking of something like erm motivation styles or something like that, if you were gonna introduce Lounslow I dunno at the motivation there are loads of them one's Lounslow one's Hertzberg if you were introducing our training to a pragmatist what would be essential is you could actually show the practical application of it, if you just put forward C V and no practical application the pragmatist would say well this is all very well in theory, but how can I apply it to my job and if they can't they think well what's the value of this. +They actually involve like participating in training that they can actually try out the techniques and they and they can try out the techniques in the training and on the job as well. +They like things satisfy the pragmatist if you can give them something that they can put in practice straight away o on the job in their job . +If you said well you can't apply this time, you may be able to in three years time but pragmatists they like something that they can take away and then put into practice straight away and they can try out. +They like training that's practical and they're dealing with real problems. +Real problems, problems that they're currently facing or issues that the company's facing, they like real problems activate things. +Although some people are quite happy to just because it's training i it they're quite happy if it's a hypothetical situation cos they think well I can actually learn from this, I can, I know what the concept structure is, I can learn from it. +The pragmatist wants it to be they want the structure they also want it to apply you know to real-life stuff, they're not into hypothetical made-up situations. +There are valuation forms they usually show the all very well much more to erm give away of, of er their learning styles. +Right so those are the four styles. +What what we mustn't do with Honey and Munnford is just take things at face value because what Honey and Munnford did is they actually carried out interviews with a thousand people and what they decided that I mean they carried out interviews with er lots of people thousand and they had a general study where they carried out interviews with a thousand people and what they said was that in particular with the reflector a l some, some scores are naturally higher than others and that what we can't do is just sort of look at these and say well this is the highest score, therefore I'm much more of a, of a reflector than I have of, I am of the other three, all we actually need to do is compare our scores against the general norms. +If I show you the general norms it makes a lot more sense. +For example if you've got between thirteen and twenty for an activist that's a very strong preference, however for a reflector a very strong preference is eighteen to twenty, because by nature most of us tend, you know most of us tend to stand back and think so what we actually need, what we wh what we can see is that when we compare our scores against the general norms it's a much more accurate picture of our learning style. +So what we can see for the activist nought to three is a very low preference so Irene has come out as a, a very low preference on that, four to six is a low preference so that's seven to ten is the sort of average so that one's the average, that one +eleven to twelve is a strong preference so John's come out as strong and thirteen to twenty is a very strong preference, so that's Mark and Lou, you've actually come out as very strong . +The reflectors, the mean here is at thirteen the average is thirteen they're all slightly higher, so eighteen to twenty would be a very strong whereas the others have just come out fifteen to seventeen which is strong, you've actually come out fairly strong there, because the highest score for anything is twenty. +That, that, that is high, but then again is very high the activist we don't, on the courses, we don't see many activists coming out as high as fifteen or sixteen, they are . +The theorist is quite in line really with the reflector the average there is about twelve and a half. +So sixteen to twenty would be the very strong on that, no one 's actually, no one 's actually got this. +Fourteen to fifteen is strong no one 's got that. +Eleven to twelve, so you're really sort of moderate preference, it's not a, it's not a strong preference a moderate preference and then the pragmatist again that's quite high very strong preference is seventeen to twenty and again John edge of that. +What, what we need to do we've got a handout for you on this so you can spend more time looking at yourself, or what you need to do is you need to compare your scores against those rather than just take the highest one. +Right for the pragmatists in the group, we want to do something practical learn from that. +Erm so what does that tell us about training, from the training when we're training others? +And what's the sort of plus or the dangers on that? +Yeah. +So what do you need to do? +And that's why this is very interesting for you because you now know what your preference is and what you need to think about is that I may be a very high reflector, but I can see there's, there's Lou in particular was a very strong activist and when I put them together training, I need to ensure that it's not the way I like to learn, it is a balanced approach others can also gain, I need to ensure that others gain from this. +What else is it that it tells ya? +How can we achieve a balance What's the ideal balance +Yeah. +Yeah. +Yeah. +We need to get a combination of all four. +So how could we get a combination of all four? +Using a practical example. +Yeah. +Yeah. +Yeah. +Yeah. +There's one other +To get the ideal session, that's what we need, we need a we need an exercise, we need participation and Martin was saying that earlier, that essential anyway cos people learn best by doing well we need activity and we need to make it practical to satisfy the pragmatist to real-life issues, problems, things that on the job. +We need the theory concept behind the method and we need to build in that people can think, digest, analyze, because as we've seen by nature most of us have higher reflector scores than we do the pragmatist and the reflector are higher than the theorists and the activists all have a tendency . +Right just one last thing that we need to think about is that as I said with the with the learning styles, there's no right or wrong +you know it doesn't mean to say that you're wrong because you like to have a go or jump in and you're not wrong if you like to have time to spend, there are no right or wrong styles and also what we can't associate the styles with, which people try to do sometimes is they try and identify the introverts and extroverts. +I mean you can't do that there is no correlation between you can't say that all the activists are extroverts cos are actually quite about the way they but they do like to have a go and it doesn't say all the reflectors cos they're sitting back and thinking and they're actually quiet reflectors. +Right, so that's all we want to look at with regards learning styles I think the key thing to remember is that we mustn't fall into the trap, because it's our learning style if we actually put together our training which reflects our style. +So as you said the danger is that it's not balanced for our delegates and the ideal is that we want the combination of all four. +So if you think back now at times when you've done a training session and you thought I can't understand why that didn't work, you know I worked really hard this may actually reveal something to you you did work really hard at it and you put it together just the way that you would like to receive it, but it's not it just the way the delegates would actually have liked to have seen it done. +and that's why when we experience different people's training you get different sort of views and feelings from it because their learning style is actually pushing through sometimes sometimes it suits us and sometimes it doesn't. +So if you can get the balance and you can get all four also what's interesting as well is if you've got a very low score at something, it may be they think well perhaps I need to develop that, if I don't apparently learn a lot from getting and having a go, perhaps I'd actually learn more if I can develop that more enjoyment from that and I can see the benefit from it. +Is it possible to develop ? +No no, there are natural, we always have a strong preference for something but we can actually develop them, just like management style we have a strong preference for, for one style but it is something that we can learn can get more and try and rationale sort of like theoretical we can try and rationalize what's perhaps happening is that in situations when we're not gaining a lot and it could be that it's because it's had a lot of activity and we can actually gain more from it we can rationalize it and analyze it. +Because if we can enjoy, if we can become more balanced actually balance our training doesn't it? +I know when I first came into training I was really high on er +Drugs! +Drugs, yeah! +Would of made the job a lot easier might have been high on drugs. +I was actually quite low on the activists and higher on these three but I managed to wonder sometimes where I worked ever so hard on a session I can't really can't understand you know why it's not going very well and I thought well when I then watched other people do something that had a lot of action I thought well why did they like that more and I never I didn't know but I've actually learnt that you have to put activities in, cos you, you know you do get people with a very strong activist preference. +Do you find people +Erm you may think that. +There will be some who have a strong preference th they, they like activity erm and what you can actually do if you're very interested in looking, what Honey and Munnford have done is they've actually taken + +Say all the right things and. +Thanks Richard erm +a copy of the C V plus the form filled in where +Okay +appropriate. +Obviously +. +That's +Yeah. +great. +Yeah saves a bit of writing and er and you'll always get a bit more detail on it can't you? +Yes. +Er while I'm having a look through this er Richard er over there we have erm a selection of the product selection of the product which erm we discussed briefly on the phone. +All right. +So erm er if you wanna look through that I'm no doubt. +There's a signature coming up is there? erm certainly the average cost of an ad if you took the most expensive and the least expensive across all of those products would come out somewhere in the region of six hundred pounds. +Per ad? +Per ad. +But what size ad? +I suppose that depends on what it goes in . +Well once again if you look at the er er if you look at the full page which costs nine hundred pound on a on a golf club score card and you look at the full page in the A five booklet +Mhm. +which will cost a thousand pound and there's only black and while. +If you look at a full page when they happen, they don't happen all that often on a schools portfolio which costs two thousand two hundred pounds, you'll see there's there's already three different prices +Yeah. +er across three different products. +Because they're all different sizes and they're all erm +The artwork costs and set up costs and so on. +Right. +So what we say is that if you took all of our products all our ads they would be somewhere in the region of six hundred pounds. +Now if you took a medical practice booklet they range from three hundred and ninety up to twelve hundred. +So the least, if fact I I'm fairly safe in saying, that the least commission you can earn on an ad, providing it's in our you know you're taking it from our price system not discounted it, +Mhm. +would be somewhere in the region of a hundred and fifteen pounds. +So you will go in you will never come out of a an advertiser with less commission than that. +Right. +Unless you have discounted it and you give two or three pounds away when you do that. +Right. +But in the main we are looking for er somewhere in the region of er hundred and eighty pounds per per per deal and we're looking for one of those a day average. +Mhm. +Our top people earn top money because A they're not satisfied with one deal a day. +Mhm. +Er we say that a an assignment should take two to three weeks for instance. +An assignment being one complete +One complete product yes. +We're er I was asked a question earlier on today erm how many assignments will I be looking after in any one time and I just said one. +And he only, you start one finished it and then go onto another one. +There's no overlap you have to complete one? +Well if you yeah. +There are one or two instances where you can go back. +If there's erm For instance I've had a situation where on a medical practice booklet because we er hand back a hundred pound for every full page that we we gain in the medical practice booklet, er it's an encouragement for if we're just a quarter of a half page short, er for the practice to say you know we'll get for another hundred quid we'd all we need to do is make a couple of phone calls and threaten erm one or two of our patients . +And that happened with me. +I set up a solicitor two months after I'd finished the the assignment. +Because they phone me up and said, Look we needed another half a page in this for us to get another hundred pound. +I said yes. +And they said, Well I've got a solicitor who's interested now. +New pa new relation +Oh I see the doctor right I'm with you now +The doctor did a bit erm arm twisting. +The doctor the doctor's patient is a solicitor n whose obviously he can now advertise anyway. +That's right they can now. +That's made a lot of difference. +I can imagine yeah. +And so I went back two months after. +In fact I'd come off the road. +I was already doing this job and so I went back because there they were going there there's a solicitor going to earn me erm er somewhere in the region of a hundred and seventy pound commission. +So I +Mm. +I went back. +It wasn't very much to go back. +So you can do that but in the main we try not to have any loose ends on er an assignment. +But that's really in the hands of the individuals that er are selling the advertising. +Mm. +Erm er and it's the way that we do it that's made it made it very comfortable to go into something, like most of the people that come to see us and work with us, they've never sold never been involved in advertising let alone sold it because erm +I've been on the other end I've had people come sell it for to me . +Sure. +And so have I. +I mean if I look back over my career with American corporates where I've bought advertising it actually runs into millions of pounds. +Where I've been involved with the marketing groups to to bring advertising. +You see +Well I've done I I've sold advertising I suppose but by blackmail. +That's it. +What in your buying and selling guide? +When I yeah when I was commercial manager for er one of the things that I was given the job to do was to sort out the company's buying. +Because when I joined them they had eight branches +Right. +and when we parted company they had forty. +But they had gone up to forty eight through acquisitions. +Er my biggest downfall was that the guy that employed me who was the eldest brother of the two that owned the company got killed in a bloody erm riding accident +Oh right yeah. +and his younger brother had always hated me because Tom had always ranted down his throat, Why can't you sell and organize things like Richard does? +Oh dear me. +It's all very well when he's alive. +It doesn't it's not good for building up relationships. +No. +So erm but of course we had er a buying and selling guide if you like. +Mm. +Now the selling guide er was an innovation to Tom bring some, all right carry on +Hello All right I wonder if you could ask him if he'd like a coffee or tea and erm er er just wait for me. +Thanks Oh Mike okay yeah. +Oh wonderful that's good news thanks very much good bye. +And one of the things we set out to do was to bring some stability to the industry because everyone was trying to carve prices up. +All right. +And to be honest the cheapest price doesn't necessarily win +No. +er business anyway. +So because we were the largest we took we in conjunction with people like Redland Roof Tiles and er +Sure. +the majors +Another my clients as well. +We said look we'll bring out a price guide +Mm. +but we ain't gonna pay for it. +Oh no no. +So you guys +Get it sponsored by the +Yeah. +You guys are gonna sponsor this but it will bring the the trade buying price, not the retail because that's there isn't there's no such thing in in as a retail price for that sort of industry. +Erm up then you can turn round when the smaller people come and say are carving up the price, you can turn round and say, Oh no they're not that's the price and that's the price. +Yeah right okay. +And that you know so er but it's only well blackmail. +Yes er I think we've all er sold something er in advertising er er remotely related to selling er at some time or other in our careers. +So let's er let's er er get er the proceedings on a on a not formal footing but laid out what we're trying to do today. +Erm I suppose you could say almost fifty percent of the erm er discussions took place on the phone. +Because if if we er if we don't hear a bit in the background and we don't hear the style in the individual er on the phone then we won't invite them to to come and have discussions with us. +The reason for that is that we do all our selling on the phone. +In in +Of course. +that respect. +Er I I emphasize that very quickly because a lot of people have been involved in all sorts of sales environments and market places erm still have their traditional habits. +And that is you don't mention the price or anything else until the last possible minute. +Here we tell them absolutely everything on on the phone. +Because if you leave anything to chance they'll blow you out when you get face to face. +And you can chase your tail an awful lot +Oh people are very wary of advertising +Sure. +selling so they wanna know exactly what they're letting themselves in for . +So well no yeah, is it worth seeing this guy? +Is the product you know even a description of the product that we're that they're going into er will be suffice on the telephone, they don't have to see these these these er items if they're described in in er in enough detail. +Er so I get that out of the way er fairly early on. +But what we're trying to do today here Richard is three er er three things. +First of all you and I have to agree that is the sort of company that er er you could be involved with er and the other way around. +Er seco and once that sort of I suppose the biggest hurdle's out of the way once that the other two become fairly simple. +Erm that is er we agree on which company we might feel er you're going to be happiest in environmentally terms. +Because whatever er product area you work in then you're doing the same thing as everybody else is. +Mm. +Er the sl the pitch is slightly different because you're describing a different product and what the benefits are. +But in essence we're selling advertising to all of those products. +And we now have somewhere in the region of abo about a hundred and seventy five to a hundred eighty sales consultants throughout the U K. +All doing the same thing with all with the same earning potential. +And the after that er second decision's made is when. +And as far as we're concerned we're happy to er for people to start immediately they think they are available. +And that's the sort of decision we make er here. +I don't hide behind a regret letter. +Nobody walks out of there without me saying, Yes it's good for you and er here's a date erm you know for where where the training course starts. +Okay? +Mhm. +So erm first of all for for we've had a cha chat for about ten minutes erm I have no problem in thinking you can do this job. +Because we do send people erm er sorry send, we ask people to come on to a training course which we fully expense. +Mhm. +Which +So +is held where? +At . +Right. +Whichever depending on which company you go in sometimes there are a couple of days out in the field plus three days in head office. +Some are just three days in head office and straight into assignments because they feel that er we have selected individuals for the right environment. +Er and but others just feel they want to do it that way, other companies. +But all have a fully expensed training course. +Some are held every other week and some are held every week depending on the size of the company. +So er I I have no problem with that. +Erm having er decided that, let me ask you if you of what you've seen so far, and I haven't gone into er whichever product er do you thing this is do you think you could erm get into the habit of selling advertising and earning fairly substantial commission. +Because in our field we're we're by far the biggest and the best in in terms of support and finance. +I'd have to ask one well I'd like to ask one question first. +I I feel +Well ask +I can do +Okay. +like. +Where so far have you got to in, not recruiting at this time, but actually attempting to sell advertising in this particular area. +And the reason I ask that obviously I don't want to go knocking on doors where somebody's already tried +Oh +er without having prior knowledge of the fact that somebody's +We've +failed. +yeah we've bri er Howard when he started this company gradually expanded from Blackpool. +He he or I should say. +Er what he didn't do which is which is very sensible and what has failed for other companies is that he didn't decide this is a good idea I'll have somebody in Newcastle and somebody in Edinburgh and I'll have somebody, in other words he gradually built the whole of the business out until he reached London by which time he he'd a hell of exp er a lot of experience and knowledge about this thing's going. +We've been selling in this area fairly consistently across estate agents +Mhm. +cos that's the only the only companies that we dealt with er up to four years ago. +Er and there're certain categories that'll always go into estate agents won't go in medical practices won't go go on golf courses and won't go in schools. +Yeah. +So they all have their own niche of advertisers. +Some legitimately if they wanted to could gain business from going in all of them. +There are cert certain categories of business that we've built up over the year. +A builder could go in all of those. +Possibly a solicitor now they're allowed to advertise. +And a solicitor. +Erm er accountants can all legitimately go in all of those products. +So there are certain categories we know. +And this area is a gold mine for us. +We got we've got I could have twenty five sales execs sitting er in the Newca Tyne and Wear area put it that way on on across those products and they wouldn't even bump into each other. +Because they all have if you like every location business location will have their own favourites who they're going to recommend that we approach. +The golf course is very selective. +I mean there's only five ads can go on on er each of their products. +Fourteen ads in estates er same for schools about average of fourteen in medical practices. +So we're only looking for fourteen businesses on each assignment. +Somewhere in that region. +Less on on er less unless unless we split full pages and go into halves and that brings in the same sort of revenue thereabouts but just happens to spread +and +so to answer your question I would there's no problem +Right. +of how many people +and and and the second part to that then is +Yes. +in each of those categories how often does it get repeated? +Er the product is resold every two years. +Right. +So you go into the guy you sell it to him and then you've lost you've got for two years you can do nothing with that person . +Oh in fact you're not even you could never have to go back to that same place but depends on where what you're doing at the time that assignment comes up for reselling. +If you're if you're available erm then coincidentally you would go into that, er but no. +The relationships you build up with our clients and the advertisers, with the clients you're working in their own er their offices for three weeks so you get to know people. +Mhm. +With the advertiser you meet him once never see him again. +Because literally you're only going in to get his contract his money and his copy and off you go. +Thanks very much I've just earned my commission. +It's the relationship between the client and the advertiser which goes on for the next two years. +Yeah. +When he says +But for the sales +bloody waste of time this was I didn't get any business out of it or er I did well out of this +No er well well if he's got any sense I I always tell the advertiser I said now the adv I said you as the advertiser have got to keep worrying you may have to chivvy them up. +What am I gonna get out of this. +But in essence what we're doing is putting your business card in front of somebody for two years. +Mm. +But I'm I'm not here to teach you how to to do the pitch . +The training course would certainly do that. +Right. +Erm I mean if you're if you feel that I don't I don't think you'd have any problem doing this it's your it's your it's the +No I just thought +where you come from as well. +Pardon? +Where you come from can sell just about anything in the home counties. +If you're a home counties man you can sell anywhere in the country. +Oh I see yeah. +If you get my if you get my drift . +Funnily enough we always say erm that within the structure of when I was a regional manager and there were four of us erm Andrew who lives in Manchester +Mm. +Scanners here. +No. +But you can take on off the T V there. +Just watch this . +Lemy they're behind you! +No they're not. +Look! +You're out of the war zone now. +Fire. +You haven't even changed my weapon right! +Well I had two of them. +That's them done. +That's them done. +That's them done. +I'm not. +I'm using it. +That's them done. +I'd forgotten all about them. +And er som I seen some going out. +You can't. +You can. +You want +Why? +Go on! +Just in case you crash. +Let go. +One one more time. +What did you pull?! +Eject!. +No, I mean these. +Hear the aircraft. +Renew your aircraft. +Coming down. +Can you hear them? +You were left mission field. +You ejected. +Co I've come to see +wants to know why were ejecting. +Why did you eject? +I'm being . +Hey! +You're a baby. +Well you've used anything. +I don't know that cupboard. +I just want to take and then blow up the tower. +No! +You don't take off then blow up the tower. +You blow up the tower first. +No you don't. +You blow up the . +Right. +You've got Alpha, Bogey, Fox Strike, and Lizard and Charlie. +I can't read these. +Launch a deep strike attack against the enemy and on our three separate and remain always calm. +No, I just remembered +And parading a minimum of six trucks and four tanks. +Yeah. +What do I ? +Any how you +No , it's my go. +It's my go. +I'm gonna destroy the road. +Hardly any . +Made su +You've had too many goes, look. +Destroyed the radar trackings . +Two MIGs sighted in centre six F, closing on the place which I'd have to get on the border of five A. +If you don't get off, it's my go. +It's not fair. +It is fair. +Ah! +But you've had loads of goes and I haven't. +He'll come up to me. +I'm safe. +Bogey trying to prevent me except for two H. +Oh this is boring! +So this should be boring ! +What? +Shum some +Shh! +Don't talk now . +Oh say say . +Ah! +Oh cor! +Charlie . +I don't have to be. +Ah! +Er or I'm saying erm my weaponry. +I don't want any. +Clear! +Clear! +Hey! +Clear! +Why? +Clear! +They're now C S Ws. +Seize them. +Yeah. +Right. +Down. +Further. +And they're C S Ws. +It's Tomahawk cruise missile. +Well I'll clear it. +It, go on. +Up. +Take it up there again. +What? +No, up. +Yeah. +Up. +Up. +Up. +Up. +Up. +There. +Where? +Get them back missiles. +Right. +I see. +Oh! +I hit the wrong mission. +We don't want any mission do we? +I hit the wrong mission. +Fox Strike. +Fox Strike. +Who me? +Fox Strike? +Fox Strike. +Wanna destroy the rope bridge? +Mhm. +No. +No, I'll tell you wanna destroy. +What? +You wanna destroy er Operation Lizard. +No. +And enemy armoured call. +Mm? +Right. +You want Lizard. +A. +Do you wanna select your weapons again? +Yeah. +I ought to go round this side. +No way!missiles again!! +Okay. +That's all set in +I think you ought to go I'll get you going real quick. +No it's not. +Well that one two two two each. +That's it. +Oh! +Mm. +I've got too many missiles! +Look at this. +These shoot up. +I would have shot those from the side again. +No! +No! +No! +I don't want them! +They're a cruise missile. +I don't want them. +They're good. +You know. +And they're quite +Are you okay? +They go up there six hundred and fifty miles per hour Lemy. +Don't want them. +So it can't come up here while I'm up there. +Well who cares! +Or there. +I'm not up again this time. +Erm oh! +Erm +There's one more . +Can't come up. +No. +No I won't! +Just . +Nothing like that. +Are they in? +Yes. +No! +They're our missiles Lemy. +Yes. +Are they gonna go for some ground fire? +We'll hit the ground. +Semi-professional stand off. +Or do you wanna lose the ground missiles again or they're actually they don't go very fast they've got warheads on them. +It's just like me and you with war heads. +Brr urgh! +Ooh! +Ooh! +I'd hate to be wearing it!. +Er I don't +I was longing I was longing to beat you. +No. +Ordinary . +Er +Look at my feet! +Margaret. +Look at these!! +They're erm my cruise missile. +Give me a cruise missile will you? +Don't be so stingy! +God! +Put it back. +start off weapon. +Oh no they're not. +Can you get them? +Oh that's great! +Yeah, I'll need the submarine you got over there. +And I was one short from this end. +There, or the the big one is thirty miles no twenty five miles. +This here one. +I've only got one left. +Or that. +Don't lose this one. +Why? +No hang on to it. +You want the and wo one over there, one out there. +You want one there right? +That's your Parkwell cruise missile. +Guess erm how long it'll go? +Seven hundred miles up to three point five or four point five Mach +I don't even know what Mach means? +Who? +Me. +I do. +That'll be too many erm C S Ws. +Five missiles over there. +Erm no we can't play with that. +I'll show you. +You I don't know how many. +What's he up to? +Why? +Why? +What are you up to? +You ready? +What? +You are clear to go. +You are er you are on a mission . +So you don't I wanna see your mission . +Ah! +No! +Not in the desert. +Don't touch! +I need to reverse. +You don't wanna kill anyone, you can kill . +I want the camel. +I want the camel. +Right. +Can I take it towards the wrong one? +Or the so far +Well I'm not telling you. +a thing over there. +A hill. +What? +You can shoot it. +Turn left when I tell you, right? +Aargh! +You never bothered! +Don't. +That's off. +That bag's not very important. +If it rains now it . +Wow! +Er +Do you wanna ? +They've crossed their border! +Our border! +Stay back! +Where's the tanks? +Where? +You gotta ! +Come on! +Bring you out. +Supposed to go that way. +No! +I won't +I put you in the war zone. +I get the end of the war zone. +Lemar. +Well it's just there. +I think they'll go. +You're on stealth mode. +Paul, they're using our la lawn mower to cut our grass! +Yeah! +Let me see. +Climb on the big horse. +Can't see. +Ha? +Can you? +Let's get the missiles off. +Back to your horse. +Mhm. +It's no me! +What am I doing? +It has ! +So I can blow it! +We'll be we'll be in bed. +Give me a channel. +Come on ! +I'm not going up there! +Eh? +I'm using all my firing ammo Right. +So that one's going to attack me. +Has gone. +Aha. +Nothing left. +Ah! +And now I'm going down to granny. +Do you wanna spin? +Couldn't get these earphones working. +Bringing the +I'm trying. +on it. +I was trying! +I bet you don't have a +No. +No! +Yu +You'd want them! +Here it goes. +So? +You take that! +Get it at least course not! +Isn't it? +It i +Give was two goes. +I ejected you! +I tried to eject you, you didn't +That's not true ! +One more! +No! +You get off or I'll box you! +Get off them! +You, you have more than three goes, so you did! +You had more two goes at erm, the last time ! +Leave me alone! +Chicken! +Let go! +Ah! +You ah ah! +Ah! +Ow! +Ah, ah ah! +Let go! +Well that's . +I'll been looking up these things. +And you're not allowed to touch me! +See I'm allowed to touch you. +No. +Then it's er . +Shh! +. Er hit cancel will you? +Erm certainly the biggie and the blackie. +It's lent me the black one now. +Ooh! +Maybe this carpet will ruin this. +Then do this. +Which order does it ah! +Everything.. +Ah yeah! +No for that. +I know it takes so long. +I'm getting ahead of the +Right. +Go for that. +Who first? +This is the , so I am I'm on one only. +Oh! +The lorry is se se se se just then. +Ah ah ah ah ah! +That's not fair! +Have you thought mine being fair? +Let's try it. +What did you hit, me? +Mm mm. +Shit! +All the big ones up the top. +All? +Mm. +Right. +That one. +Down to no! +Up! +Up! +Up! +Ah, now these watched this trick before. +I know what these are. +Don't touch it! +It'll go up! +It couldn't blow up. +It could. +Wouldn't! +Cut this pin in half. +Got a +Ah ah ah ah ah! +Gotta go careful. +One. +Off! +I just want one of them ones. +Eh? +Go careful. +He's fucked in the corner . +I can't fight them off. +turn round. +After I A R N, one, two, three. +A I R. +That's wrong? +I A N? +Up! +Up! +Up! +Up! +Up! +Up! +Up! +Up! +One. +Up! +Up! +One. +Down. +Down. +Down. +Down. +One. +Up! +Okay. +Up! +Do ten up. +Or I keep getting up. +Oh! +Mm mm. +A hit. +Up. +Up. +Down. +Down. +Hit it. +Er there, except the bottom. +You gotta take these ones. +Yes! +It's a draw! +Thank God! +In the . +The nice clear win You'll be on +Alright. +I'll start it. +on the wrong way between the H Q . +Yeah. +Has that mission gone? +Mhm. +Sure it's the right mission? +Do I +Mhm. +get too near? +Mm, I think that that's a different mission. +Yeah, I'm coming. +Start . +You want a bet they won't? +They're coming fast overhead. +Behind you. +Can they? +Can't reach. +I saw them! +Ah! +There's one. +It was a funny day now was it? +Hey. +Hey. +Hey! +That one. +You are traitors. +Great. +Amm ! +And one more behind you. +Would you do a structured damage? +A, make a structured damage on the building. +Ho ha +Dunno. +She'll think it's a fight. +Pull them all up. +I don't know for sure, now. +.Hit you again. +No. +No. +No. +They're wearing on the back. +See the fire in the cable. +What about Foxtrot ? +Nothing. +It's trying, they're rak you know that they they erm A A A A A A I, A A I. +Watch the T V. +Possibly go on this road. +Already there. +Don't be afraid if you can't. +Urgh! +It's gone round there. +Will I'll get your wee . +Now shoot. +Who's behind them? +Yeah! +I've pulverized them. +Ha! +Ha! +It was hard . +Don't die when you've taken a turn. +What about there? +You landed okay, alright? +There. +Oh God! +Oh what! +You've taken in that +What? +weekend. +Oh I know first weekend. +First weekend is Saturday. +I don't like this. +That's what Kevin 's are like. +Exactly! +Rescue another . +What do we do? +Aye. +Francey? +Yeah? +It happens to be one more. +What? +I've a . +Do you know that? +Mhm. +Ha! +Well +Then go for it +How you doing Francey? +Okay. +How you doing? +? +No. +I said so. +If you're wondering she's she's +Yeah. +there. +Give us a look. +Did you? +Remember this? +Over there. +You should let your arm +Please! +I can never do it! +I mean, and you're far back. +Right. +Yes? +Wait, waiting for my pyjamas. +Oh ! +This is stupid! +Don't blow any more up! +He'll I'm on stealth. +Direct your one. +Somebody's threatened me. +Enemy threat you behind you! +Go F two behind you. +Get off! +There's the enemy. +Bombers. +Won't go up. +Are you on bomber mission? +no they're bombers. +Quickly! +Quickly! +Blow them? +Mhm. +That's trouble. +Exactly! +Good God! +Kill them! +Ooh! +The bridge! +Fire! +I can't see to go round there. +Ah! +Wo oh! +There's the bridge! +Fire! +Ah! +You you've blown it. +Incoming missile. +Right behind you. +Did you see that? +Oh it's got the head blown off for it. +Why am I firing at it? +At this end systems all so all out. +A, P C M A. +They're erm crankonizers +It's crankonizers +There she is again. +Blow out the bridge. +You can't bomb the bridge. +What for? +I'll check their bridge. +Let me check it. +Fuck! +Look at that! +They'll have to take out the men again, no? +I know that. +Aye, look! +I must have destroyed a bomber! +And I got one out the fridge. +Well it's daren't cos mum . +Tonight. +You're dead you know, sort of thing. +Has that tape stopped? +No. +It has, it's stopped. +What? +Has that tape stopped? +No. +I think so. +Right, I'm gonna play it . +Aye, just don't hit either +Not if I shoot them. +We'll play this weekend. +Wait and see. +You know our mission. +Oh and again. +And another one. +Do you know what you're going up against? +Whose bombers are these? +And I don't know why you're grabbing all them. +What are you choosing? +I'll choose this. +What did you choose? +I choose one to destroy the . +You wait! +Go for bombs then. +You're naughty! +Just laugh if it was one, you falling down from the sky. +Can you control it? +See this big . +Mhm. +Go past it. +Oh! +Maybe it isn't on. +It's not right. +Er ni ni ni, there! +Oh look! +It's knocked out my food. +What? +you can't fire! +See you're not very good! +Oh! +Oh! +Oh! +Oh! +Oh! +Oh! +Oh oh oh! +Here she is. +He'll see them off. +I didn't destroy it. +Knock off part of them, they're set apart aren't they? +No. +I can't. +For me to dodge them. +No, don't fire will you!there. +Yeah, I can also see Well I didn't lose a pile of them. +It's the only thing I got. +Hee oh! +Didn't do it. +Yeah but Shall we blast that? +You have to get Ah ah! +You can get a ! +He's a kamikaze! +Kamikaze driver! +You crashed! +I crashed! +He crashed into me! +You crashed into him. +Over there! +Recount! +Recount! +Recount! +Cha cha cha ! +Recount! +Recount! +I want a recount . +Your will laugh and they'll make you change. +This time, don't let them knock out your hood. +I'll get them before then. +And take a small fighter. +Then they'll it's harder to hit. +Say, I'm gonna have game on this anyway. +Okay. +on. +There's nothing on it. +Then you want eight er charge up missions. +Why? +Commander, rank commander. +And while he is +Commander! +The scums +This is you. +are gonna die now! +Er you don't have your weaponry. +Everything is up north. +Watch. +I will . +Well you have your record camel. +Wish I had that camel over there. +Go get changed. +We leave on Friday the third. +Go and bring them back to . +Doubt if I can. +You're away in half time. +You owe half anyway. +Anything . +engagement off. +No, they're retreating. +Can start coming out. +When I'm ready. +One more flight path. +They're both flying together. +No they weren't. +Didn't blow any of them. +Must have been clear. +Prove they did . +This one, no. +You hit it. +Soon find out. +It crossed you. +Well, let me see. +You crossed him and he never even left it . +No, they must have,I caught a dog fight or shoot the windscreen ! +The right point on the thing here. +Oh cos you're gonna die. +That's what he said. +Cho choose that small one. +I'd like the big'un. +That one. +The F twenty twos are all out. +The F twenty two is shit! +It's like a +It's oh don't wa don't wanna die! +All the beasts are up there. +I don't think you should have too much. +I say I'm gonna . +Ah! +Right there. +Now leave it there. +Go and sort them out . +Mm. +Yeah. +Little wee suckers! +Knock up the team up. +Not in your book! +You chose ? +That one. +Came up. +United Kingdom. +Oh! +Try the counter measures. +See if anyone's +listening. +Well is that gonna stick to your head? +I want stealth, what am I doing, I'm on stealth. +Come on! +Yes! +Come on! +or +Better not! +Gonna knock your head for six! +Right. +I wanna turn round. +You're not ! +I can if I want! +Oh! +Ah! +Ah! +It was in the aircraft! +I never wo . +What happened to you? +Got all my missiles following me. +They're following me. +You killed me again! +Ha!! +This time I'm gonna beat him up! +Come on! +You won't . +You blew, you blew your man's engines up! +What's this for? +That's the part. +Some? +Thank you. +Stop giving me dirty looks! +And make peace with me. +Give me that. +I'll soon get something done. +Move it! +How many Weetabix did you have this morning? +Two. +Two. +Francey eat three ! +Not like that Tony who ate three boxes! +I'll tell him. +Right. +Don't you even tell him. +He'll get over it. +Once you are +Look at that! +Their dad told me twenty million boxes! +No, well twenty million boxes. +He's half . +! +They've gone forever. +Excuse me! +He's supposed to be doing his homework. +He's got +He attacked me first. +Put the brick in the mouth, he's doing his homework. +Okay. +Where am I gonna do this then? +Eh? +Who's, who made the beds? +What have I gotta do then? +Who made the beds? +Why? +You did, oh! +The dog did it ! +That's right. +Well I'll maybe give the dog . +I'll do it now. +Who's that being a smart arse? +Lemar! +Sit! +But he's attacking me! +Shut up! +I'll attack you! +I think I'll sit over here! +They're moving further away than ever. +Do you want me to come over? +in the end, I'll sort it out. +Paul psycho! +You're doing the rest of the +Oh! +I'll play a game. +Get out your book and come in here. +You get to ask for shells and in my wee toilet and I don't +Take out them all! +and +You alright love? +The cupboard's +Yeah. +destroyed. +What? +Get in here! +Pick +Why? +it up! +Come in here! +The cupboard's like isn't it? +Aha. +So? +Not me. +Get the fucking mister! +Look fella, you're gonna have to go and learn that how that's done by here. +It's in the breach you know, so th +Beg your pardon! +My family always said your family +No! +Pardon me! +It's lopsided! +Yeah ! +Looks lovely . +Ah! +I'm going. +And especially +when this is lopsided. +It's all . +And movement. +And your eyes, ni ni! +Don't pull my work down! +Oh! +I didn't do nothing . +Oh! +Oh! +Wah! +Wah! +Hit that door? +And I'll tell you later one wrong and you're hit on the head! +Get your homework done? +I didn't have any. +Erm, no. +Give me a couple. +Ha? +Okay. +Right. +Er +Give me your sock . +No don't! +The actual plan . +You're not gonna take it off! +I, I know who +Can I have one? +Well er +That'll be lovely. +Er er, er er Ha! +I like those jeans. +Do you? +I wanna go super. +Gonna go and see . +Weeow! +Weeow! +Weeow! +Ooh, da da da! +Ah? +July twenty eighth? +Yes. +Where? +He might appear on this. +Oh! +He might appear and extending this. +It's like Roseanne eh? +Yes. +Do you want beans Paul? +They walk past the +Any good is it? +No, you'll be able to see. +I'll soon pick it up. +Nothing really at all? +These. +What's with the ? +Pass it over. +Mm. +It has. +Mhm. +What? +What? +Well there's nobody who's prepared to say anything. +There's matches on! +No, number seven. +What is it? +What is what? +Them. +They're not gonna let him go to that. +Oh! +Who said so? +Is Kelly going out there? +Mhm. +No. +Still going when I leave there. +Maybe it costs more. +You know we already ha it's the second, would you like +It's the second part. +Well it's been quick. +It's only the second one . +? +No I haven't. +Oh! +Only once. +What? +What do you quit Thursday Nora? +Yeah. +Well Francis, did you find out? +No. +What? +I'm afraid not. +So you don't get all the things then? +I said it's not Rufus. +You are, when do you finish? +Thursday. +But, you don't know what time? +all or not? +That's lovely! +No! +When? +Wednesday. +Don't you remember? +Aye. +That was Raymond. +Well then, what about them? +I haven't seen, what I saw that? +Yeah. +Haven't you? +I can't remember them now. +Where's all the trifle? +Then what about, do you want a bit now? +Well if you tell him he'd worry more. +Let him find out for himself. +No, I tell you see. +And then he says well I'm not on Thursday and that was that. +No more hassles. +Mm. +Course he's got Robert. +He got the paper that says says nothing about computers at twenty percent off whole stock Good grief! +Er, what's that? +It's your pasta. +I know. +Mm? +Do you want some more homework when you've had this? +Depends what's on. +Why? +Ah? +Why? +Yeah, I . +Ah? +Alright. +What is she drinking? +Orange juice. +No, I don't think she's drinking wine. +And mineral water, meant a glass of lemonade. +You don't have to hide it. +Aha. +What? +What's all those? +All that up. +God bless any one person I'll come . +I know my ga come-uppance cos it'll take me . +Ah,mo move that. +This. +Yeah. +Oh I I had two on there. +I forced them out of the screen. +You're diagonal. +Shoot, over there and then whole-batch. +Once it comes on the screen generally good. +Who they can go further than one back. +Once I've got this wee grog player thing. +And hours later it disappeared. +It sure did. +And it never reappeared. +Oh. +Oh! +I've just seen a big crane. +Big thing for lifting cars in a dock yard. +You know what I mean? +Shh! +Move that off without getting killed. +To check that they've gone home. +And check +No. +and make a like, just walk right through. +Alright then. +Let, there's your way. +I'm watching her thirty at the big big fire wall one. +Don't use the fire, and fighting fire. +There's a wall wall, although we . +It's about the cop, it's about +Go up and do your homework Francis and we'll see. +I'm going to bed. +Aye. +May as well. +I suppose I'll have to give her a ring. +I know. +He's only waiting to do that because . +Phone our neighbour. +What love? +Let them know we're alright Paul. +Paul! +On here you've got . +Who's on that one? +Hold the cards. +What? +Whoop! +Hold the cards. +Have you gone? +Are you going? +What mum? +Oh! +Where is he? +Ah? +Aren't you gonna watch? +Mhm. +All except yours. +I'll watch it. +Get up there! +No, it's just the way I feel. +No,we we had a free kick there. +Behind. +What, and now going for a head, hit the bar. +I would have understand if he'd dived and got out their way and the wind just blew it the other end. +Aha? +the cover. +Well, my friend brought out a frisbee right? +He, I thought it and Martin goes, look! +Look! +It's bound to hit the wall. +Paul, the frisbee is bound to hit the wall. +And +Yeah. +it goes diagonal up one end. +And then he he get his dad was passing, he's put out put out his arm to go like that there and when he caught stuck up like from there. +He went urgh! +Aha! +I was just what does mean? +Ah? +I mean, I haven't a bloody clue! +It's it's not it's not , you move yourself up. +It's not, be careful! +Someone's going to give me . +That's what it is. +Mm. +Hey this one's starting at seven. +In te ten minutes. +Yes. +What? +Maybe we should go down there later on. +I dunno. +Yo! +Dude! +Gone, it is . +Tt. +Oh Peter . +Oh look! +He's only got one eye! +What? +Where? +Well I don't know . +Where? +Why? +Ah? +In your bank book. +Nothing. +Mum ! +What? +Here! +Francis, what do you want? +Who wants +Ah! +who wants me? +What do you want me for? +Did you give him the milk? +Can I go to ? +We just went to it. +Remember? +Your P E kit went for a walk on his . +No, I'm not talking about the lost things . +Where are they then? +What? +I would, you know. +You would not! +I would so! +That's . +Look at this. +No, don't want to till you move this! +Alright. +I will find this with you. +Oh God! +You didn't turn them on until the second part. +I know. +Well I know. +That's not fair is it? +You can go up. +I'm not sure if they are there. +I +They're brown nearly. +Who? +Said brown nearly. +No, they're probably still brown ! +I'll go and get them out. +No! +No. +Be even better. +See you! +Are you sure! +Are you sure! +I'll to have your ! +Hey? +I know. +I'm not accusing you. +Yes you are. +I'm not! +You are! +Francis. +You are! +Paul!your son out here! +Look at my arm! +Mum! +What? +It's his fault. +Lemar! +What? +It is on!is it on? +Look. +Anything good on the Movie Channel? +Yeah? +No. +No? +We'll get a result there. +No we didn't. +Listen you know what I me mean goes in extra time and after that, penalties. +Nil, nil this is the second half. +Yes. +But I know +Yes. +Don't score a goal this time. +Yeah, but if you score a goal it will still go into extra time. +Yes. +They both score a goal now. +Both. +Who's wo +Aye +or who's got the best of the play? +Best of the play? +I'd say Liverpool. +Should have seen Barnes! +Look! +Switch! +Switch! +Switch! +What? +Whee! +What did +Zip! +Zip! +What . +Look! +Look! +Look! +We'll play by your and go in his way. +Know what he done? +He just straight through them. +Give him the card and then any how. +What? +Who's recording? +Well who? +Yous already, the button pressed haven't you? +Well +When? +Are you still recording? +What? +I did it just now. +Sure that tape wasn't finished? +It wasn't finished just now. +Was it Lemar? +Yeah. +It was nay. +Well . +Don't pick up the . +Ha? +Yes. +What are you doing? +The mike's . +One, pa! +One, pa! +One, pa!. +Daddy you bought these. +Did I? +Aye. +Oh up against them. +Yeah. +Go and get the papers over, can't see the result. +Got one in your bedroom. +Mm. +Well, how they doing? +Ah! +Ah? +Nearly finished. +Ah! +Here. +What's the score? +Nil, nil. +Nil, nil. +And there is not results today. +Is there? +Mhm. +Aye guess who's winning the free kick. +Who? +Well Liverpool +Who? +have only got aye Tottenham is winning the free kick. +Er, ten free kicks. +Aha. +And Liverpool have only got four free kicks. +Well I'm . +I'll go for . +Lemar says Liverpool has had good play? +Yeah. +They've been running up and down the place doing all the good play. +played well too +and +and they may have +th +vicious or anything. +He was pushed right down! +Okay. +He was pushed down onto here. +He, one that got hurt. +One of the Portsmouth players Paul. +He's +What do you think of the +No +play now? +Paul's sitting there. +I can't hear him te give me a . +It's the, it's the phone. +There's a phone call for you young man. +How do you get home? +What? +Walk home. +Right. +My mummy. +What? +What? +Mummy wants to go with you. +Oh no! +No, no, you don't have to walk us home. +What? +Here's daddy. +Whe when I get there +Sit down Lemar. +I'm going +But +to walk you all the way. +they throw down their and stuff. +I said sit down! +Come on then. +Everybody was shouting for a penalty. +And never give them. +fifty two. +What? +Has the water come up? +Looks like there's no water! +Look. +Who lifted it up? +I saw them all on a rail. +Erm Jeffrey's granddad. +Oh well! +Normally the keeper +It's better than Francey. +actually they move a lot. +Eh? +They work out who got the most shots in +How many shots? +at the net. +Mm? +Back to the shots. +What did you say about ? +I reckon Robert de Ni Robert de Niro just then. +Who? +Oh! +They should be red on it. +Mm. +They should be er both of them could have put that all in black. +What? +This should be red on it. +It's not it's sitting down to Robert de Niro. +He is trying to find here. +Ee! +Ah! +Fuck the ! +Both you of you +Yeah. +What? +P F +these, these are for , got hit and +That's a smaller version of that. +If I have the ammunition for this war and take out you now. +The civilization. +The both of you. +The civilization, okay! +Oh! +Do you still want erm Rushmere mere? +So you did. +Who's that ? +No? +I, wouldn't I know? +Tell Francey to walk home +They're mine. +. +Mm? +Let him walk home can't you mum? +No. +Take that one there. +But why? +What time you going? +What time is it? +Half past nine. +Then I'll go . +Mhm. +She's normally in bed now. +Is she? +Not at all. +I'll just leave it.. +Yeah. +Well no, it's gonna be a bit tricky, come the back way here. +Cos there's effort then.. +Call one now. +No , I'll do it. +What? +You not gotta . +He , I don't reckon. +If everyone . +Aye, he said there was a I checked and went and +asked. +Leave it alone. +Well I'll phone. +They've fucking given half the game up! +Zip! +Zip! +Zip! +Zip! +Zip! +Zip! +Zip! +Zip! +Zip! +Zip! +Zip! +Zip! +Who's Portsmouth playing? +I dunno. +Is this aspirin you give me? +I don't know . +Aye. +Aye. +Yes we did. +Portsmouth. +Highbury. +It is the even ground. +It said at the start +Is this Highbury? +it's all at Highbury. +Is this Highbury? +Look at that ground, look! +It's all at Highbury. +Don't do that, no don't let +It's +And +him play. +at the . +And the last match was at Highbury. +And guess what something? +Guess who score, he near the end, score from John Barnes' free kick? +Whelan. +No, he did not! +And he's playing this match. +Oh! +You can almost tell just from the first time they're doing their marking . +That lad +Mm. +over there. +Why does another team go out? +I never saw them there. +Neither did I. +Well where did you get that? +Dad told me. +Goal! +They're all missing a good shot. +What? +No they didn't. +it was +It was +Sunday! +Was it? +Lemar sa says +Started at eight o'clock. +There were many other men. +Over the don't own that, over a way were +Couldn't see them +three hundred people I'd say! +I was gonna, I hope nothing personal ! +Perhaps they thought they were. +No way it's complicating shouting at them. +Whatever works. +Let me hear now. +Yeah. +Och! +He should have been on the end of that. +. +He's trying for a shot there again. +Whoever it is who had the marker out. +Aye. +I've no, I I hardly think that they're commentating about twenty miles away. +Watching T V. +And giving names and all. +This is sound I, I hear more. +I hate the sound of it! +Oh! +People +I never mind his voice. +Well +He +I know. +What? +Guess what, all in red, number three. +He's . +He's number three. +Well I Yan Molby's number eight. +Number eleven! +No he's not. +Now keep things down. +Ooh! +That's not Ben. +No, I'm gonna kiss you in any way. +Barnes has got it! +Oh he's gonna score! +Go on get it out! +Get it ! +I'm looking more and more, you may wanna +Da na na ! +Er er er! +Er er! +I wanna go I want dad to get one of the . +Ha! +You're doing the laces on your own. +Okay. +In the car. +It resulted in a +Where's his cheese? +Maybe he didn't like it. +See eleven. +Eleven. +Did anybody try the +Eleven thousand. +? +Francey really +Yeah. +likes it. +It's gorgeous! +What's it like? +Mm. +Mm. +It's nice. +Is it like Dairylea? +Yeah. +Especially the . +It's very like Dairylea. +I try to leave it one day,a believe me, it's no more than you'd die, like. +It is. +Well I'll eat it. +It tastes +Take a tiny bit. +it tastes like butter. +No it doesn't. +Butter and cheese. +But, never you get that again. +What? +Never get that again. +Why? +Bu just don't get it! +You know I don't like butter. +Tastes like butter and cheese mixed together. +I didn't get it for you! +Shit! +Butter ! +Got it for me. +Well you don't have to try it Paul! +Have you just finished! +Francis is eating it so that's alright. +What's cheese and like? +Are you gonna eat the lot before you go to bed? +What? +Oh! +Mm. +Something like shot. +Oh that +Well if , well if you you were supposed have overtime set up, right? +Maybe you could have separate accounts for the whole these and these +Yeah, separate accounts. +Yeah, we got hundreds of these, and these . +Who are you getting two separate accounts? +Go out and get two. +Why just me? +Who wants who wants some of Lemar's spread? +Where's the Daily Mirror? +There's no . +Erm, I wonder, that's at the table. +Anything +No. +else I do for you? +Come on! +Cor! +It's in. +What? +It's in +We haven't +September nineteen seventy seven. +with Florence. +Look! +There again. +Aha. +Well you're one way past . +I just wanna cry! +What? +All my friends just cry. +What? +All my friends +I know. +just cry. +You sure? +No, I won't cry before. +Yeah! +I would just +Only if my fucking mouth hurt or something! +No. +No. +Well where did that one go? +What do you want? +You never play football! +It's way out of o +Ooh! +Watch this one. +Looks really good. +He'll be a good player. +It went past . +They've +Yeah. +opened the . +Oh! +That big goal path cleared all the ball. +He wasn't he going out for it. +Or or +Ooh! +anything else. +The only thing is they want to be and that. +Mm. +Don't talk while we're watching . +That there is er England +Me ee ee ee! +colours. +Whereabouts? +That there. +That's clever isn't it?! +Mm mm mm. +I never even heard the question . +Why are we doing ? +No! +Ah? +What? +They'll lose th the, the, the, the match. +They probably will. +Mum! +And they're gonna put a header! +One darker than the other one. +Mm?. +Let's walk all over them! +Look! +Floored them! +Look all that! +There are Portsmouth fans and la Liverpool fans all down in Highbury. +There's more! +There's more! +And +What? +they're gonna turn +Lemar it yo it's your turn to take off. +It's not. +I never . +Oh he's a good player, that! +You what? +Oh just play it for him look. +What? +Yeah, when +You know +erm and when he wins this they're sure gonna sign him. +Arsenal ball. +Go on! +your match the Liverpool supporters +The one that they're trying to watch now? +Yeah. +That match? +Yeah. +Oh right. +Liverpool supporters ru +The one where somebody hits you in the , now that match? +No . +Go to the north. +just to watch this game. +Who took my card out? +You don't need the card in this. +But you need the decoder in. +Aye. +Oh! +Do you need it. +Should have made it with that. +Mm. +What? +Give him the card . +Will you take all of the ones? +No. +All the way. +Oh! +What will it be? +Nobody calling it Och! +.Go on man! +Different coloured blue +See if they got have the yeah, the linesman he's an arsehole, the linesman! +I know. +Some of them . +An Argentine. +I think he's wrong. +Hand ball! +Well that walked all over him! +Och! +What'she doing ? +Zup! +Zup! +Zup! +Zup! +Well I guess he is Zup! +Zup! +Zup! +Zup! +Mm. +That's the first time he ever waved his arms! +I honestly thought the ref should them in hand really. +Come on somebody! +Send him off! +He got sent off on Sunday didn't he? +Get off big nose ! +It's somebody else ! +He pulled him down from behind ! +Just to make it, aha. +Do you need the earphones yet? +Find out what your mum wants give your mum a call today. +With all this . +See if she wants to er, you know, coming down on Sunday. +Aha. +Erm she wouldn't go. +She, I think she said she wants to go like, you know,for erm wherever she wants to go and it would do her chores themself. +And there'll be less fuss. +She can't wait to see . +She's got to go and see Heather +Mm. +and Rosie and erm, what was I saying?and Kelly. +And flipping, twenty five pounds it cost them to get into the . +Twenty five pound for adults and fifteen pounds for children. +And that was for them going just for the day. +Well that's, they reckon for doing your . +Mm. +Well I love planes don't I? +Aye, even if I share that didn't get you anything +I didn't know it was on the , it was on the T V today, said it was very good. +Aye. +We won't stay there. +But we can get a day thing. +They said it +Yeah get +really worked for families if you're going for a day or maybe two days. +They say they're very large. +Compared with the, the, the day one +They were over at Arsenal today ,. +is the space like he, he says they've been woken by . +It's a lot better than what he thought it would have been. +Put it that way. +He's through! +Penalty! +That's Yan Molby. +Oh! +We'll see. +The only thing he doesn't like about it is the part where you go to Eurodisney. +Is that right Paul? +It's the wrong time. +He paid for a film. +It's prone to er there. +It's never really fun place. +He said it doesn't matter who does it on down the second time. +Ah! +He saves it. +Isn't it ? +No , it's not. +I've gotta clean them all up the same. +Paul that's Mhm? +Alright. +Just say to your mum . +I mean, a lot of the ri rides are all under cover there. +You know , you know but you're not listening. +Well I'll listen to two o'clock in the morning when yous are all in bed. +Doesn't matter. +It does! +Cos I'll be . +By the time you get all this and counting all the years,by the time you'll be able to afford it ! +No mum! +You're not going to EuroDisney! +Sure +That'll mean peace and quiet then you're going! +The P G A or something. +Ah! +The P G A or something in Scotland. +Shh! +Pull out the now. +Mhm. +Go there a lot. +At least with three thousand screaming fans beside you, you still hear it. +Mm! +Don't do that! +What? +Here, just now. +What did +You ooh +you say they were? +Yeah. +Every time he does that there you call out ! +No. +You're saying I like it. +Ah shut up! +It's not your fault. +Move over there! +Which is the youngest one? +a nineteen year old. +Er I dunno. +Twenty something. +I want both of my cups. +Aha. +And she bought that bowl. +And she bought me the glass bowl. +Aha. +And know what she done? +She broke one of them +glass bowls! +Last night. +! +I didn't break one of them glass bowls! +I lifted it up +You broke it! +to go and get the +Sit down! +glass bowl out of the thing to get the big fruit bowl there and one of them broke. +Yes. +That's because you dropped one of them. +I didn't drop it! +Yes you did! +You see! +This is his big one, look! +It just broke . +No. +What did you say? +That one was broke. +Yeah, and his books erm falling down the way, not up the way. +Mhm. +That's the . +That's why they couldn't get +So they said oh dear! +Sorry! +Oh dear! +I wasn't meant to do that. +Instead of oh dear! +I was nay meant to do that. +Oh dear! +I wasn't meant to do it.. +Go away! +Now! +And I hit you back! +Yeah. +He's waiting up this end. +He'll have to go on instead, yeah?. +They're coming to have a look tt just because . +Mm mm. +Not much of them telling . +Yeah, the best footballer in the world. +I know! +It was one of the best goals in the world you told me! +I know that! +No, it's . +Mhm. +If you asked them to he would do it. +They're going We still haven't , can't we do some more? +Thanks Paul. +I like these. +Get your +I like them. +shit out of the jar! +Okay! +And it's the first time since you're . +Three gotta be done tomorrow night. +Just wanna drop them, then go. +Off side there! +It's obvious! +Tt. +Ooh lovely! +Watch him insult the +There it is! +referee! +No, it was the middle player. +Send +Aye. +him off! +And Portsmouth found it. +Yeah. +The , the ref. +The ref's gonna jus , er banned them all until after the match. +And his erm, +That's another good header! +I'm fairly sure he did. +Who's doing that list? +Nobody. +Oh! +I've left the water running. +Have you all seen that? +It's good innit? +Give me the other one. +What? +That in there. +Something under there? +No. +Ah? +Nothing there. +There's a big bicycle. +Did you see the, them, the nightclub? +Some . +Oh my God! +What? +See the grass they're playing on Paul? +Paul? +Mhm. +Look at that grass in Highbury! +Doesn't look like a perfect pitch? +Mm? +That grass. +Bet it takes a lot cutting. +the grass. +Looks perfect doesn't it? +The work probably is. +Whatever is I +Mm. +suppose. +Well that's it. +Something like Aston Villa's +pitch. +How many you got to +Once. +Only once. +Aston Villa. +One. +That's probably got sand on it. +I know what's happening to our +Except that place looks like a looks like a . +This one's +Is that all it is. +Is that all is it . +Four of the footballers +Well +belong to national game. +It's erm, the heart of the cos er, everybody went there to the pitch went down like that at your ankles cos the water and . +What? +Every winter, right? +Right. +Lo er not very good for Joanne, she's heavy. +You know that the . +Thi , that there Paul the ground you muck up the grass. +The seats are way down. +So they put sand over. +Look! +You can see it's sunk. +I know,a mixed in with muck. +They don't have the old do they? +It'll be worse and worse. +It's all rubbish. +I'm just wondering . +Mm. +What's that? +Er, I'm sorry! +I didn't know. +That. +It's a lot of work playing for a concert. +A load of work. +and got the cup last year. +What? +From what they said didn't win the cup last year. +Can I have one of them? +Mhm. +She's got more . +I wonder if er, they'll be going back to New York. +But what for? +Er, probably i +No. +Er, they aren't. +I don't know. +I hope they're coconut. +Do you want, do you want one of these, er Paul? +It's just the water. +Really, in there is water. +I'm feeling shattered. +Mhm. +Oh well played! +Ooh take it! +Tt! +They could have come in and that could have cost you the ball. +I could play for them. +Mm. +And he was standing there and he scored. +Ooh! +He's there ! +I dunno. +Sometimes . +Ah? +Are you coming? +Aye. +Zup! +Zup! +Zup! +Zup! +Zup! +He should do it. +It's done. +Then he should do it and he goes +Ooh er But then . +Is this the first half? +Aha. +Oh that's a bit better. +At least they've been shouting out. +They . +Well thanks. +Oh. +Gonna answer me? +What's up? +Okay. +Okay. +Do you love me? +Oh si say that shit! +Okay. +Since you're both . +Go on! +Get them out the hall. +You and Lemar just remember . +After all, he got +No, no, no! +After this game. +Mm? +No, I'm not playing with you. +Oh no. +Oh well, well done! +That's not too fair! +Said you and me . +Ah? +Post! +Ooh! +Well why did you go, +Should have went in! +Did you see that shot! +Ah! +They're really getting rough with us. +That was out. +Hey! +That should have gone in. +Yeah, what about that! +They weren't putting, that they weren't playing they didn't have + +to look across at a group wh who would know a cynical opportunity if it hit them in the face. +But then again, maybe I'm wrong, for is this not the same Labour Group which now proclaims to be our cultural guardians, who, my Lord Mayor, only last year, sought, in that most bohemian of ways, to dispose of all of civic treasures in one giant car boot sale. +I would say that that is a prime example of cynical opportunism at its most cynical and most opportune. +What utter and unbelievable nonsense it is for the Labour Group to claim that the Conservative Group have sought to exploit the needs of people with disabilities in order to gain political advantage. +Let me remind the cynics opposite that yours is the only Group on this Council which has voted against our proposals on disability. +It says a great deal about our attitude to the role of the opposition that you regard everything that they do as being a little more than attempt to seek a political advantage. +Both ourselves and the Liberals share a concern for the people with disabilities. +We want to see employers, whether it be the Council or private companies, taking an active interest in helping solve the practical difficulties associated with disability. +That is why we, with the support of the Liberals, put forward our own adaptation of the perfect Percent for Art policy. +There is nothing ins intrinsically long with the concept of Percent for Art, but we saw an opportunity to extend that concept to make sure that the real need of real people in real communities were properly reflected in any scheme. +What is the point of having Van Goch hanging in a public building if people with disabilities are not provided with proper access facilities. +hear hear +Do the Labour Group want to promote that kind of cultural apartheid? +No, I am afraid, Lord Mayor, that the Conservative Group would not stoop so low as to exploit disability for mere political advantage. +Let me remind the members opposite of a Conservative Group policy document on disability that was produced in 1987. +That document clearly stated our concern about the need for vigilance in respect of the physical environment in order to ensure necessary access facilities for buildings, transport, leisure and other facilities. +Far from seeking to gain political advantage, all that my Group have tried to do is to continue with a long-held policy on disability. +It is time that members opposite stopped this petty vindictiveness and sought to join with both ourselves and the Liberals in seeking to press for real progress in recognising the specific requirement of people with disabilities. +And all too often in the past disability as an issue has been neglected, while the Council pursued other parts of its Equal Opportunities policy. +Today we have lost a marvellous opportunity put that right. +Councillor +Lord Mayor. +I've never heard so much rubbish in my life and what I'm gonna try and do is speak to the policy of Percent for Art. +There're just one or two minor announcements. +The Percent for Art policy originated from people. +It was presented to Parliament by a Secretary of State for Environment, Trade and Industry, Health, Education and Science etcetera, in September 1990. +So the Government supports Percent for Art and I would have hoped that it would have at least done a little bit of er work little bit of homework and I would have hoped that those members that went to the Percent for Art seminar would have stood up and said something positive about what it's about. +Councillor Community Environmental Services Committee are responsible for the large number of partnerships, social partnerships, with big business that the Labour Group are bringing to and the reason the Percent for Art was on that Committee was to link in to that er those those partnerships' proposals. +It was the Tories that hijacked Percent for Art and brought the issue of disability about. +hear hear +and what they did, and you were there, and you must've been listening, what they did, percent for people, they moved it up to Policy and Resources, Policy and Resources percent for people came around, Councillor spoke. +He'd forgotten about the booklet that he put forward on building regulations, the forward that he'd put forward, so what he was asking to do was already Council policy that he initiated but forgot about. +I think it's typical on the things that Councillor does. +He p he pretends to forget about things that he's done in the past, but the people of don't forget what you've done in the past. +hear hear +our Lord Mayor. +The real truth, not elitist. +You're not a philistine. +Cynical opportunities is far more appropriate. +Think about it. +Percent for Art. +You know has culture no therapeutic value, no medical value? +Can we imagine living in a world without music. +And some are saying that that's already happening. +But would it be so absurd for those who sought refuge in tranquilisers or pep pills to try instead a course of Beethoven, Mozart or Chopin? +Is it so fantastic to imagine a future in which doctors w doctors will prescribe a visit to the art gallery for people for people with depression? +Today it's fashionable to be green. +Parties compete for the greenest mantle. +No Party is so red or so blue they would not be green. +Conferences solemnly debate the environment but the environment is not just about the North Pole or the ozone layer. +It's about what's happening in our everyday lives, down the street, round the corner, including, and especially including civic art and architecture which, above all, could relate to the real lives of the community. +Cities have to have green belts but they should also have green hearts. +Percentage for Art and the people behind it believe it's time th the time has come for art to go on the offensive. +Art is green. +It's irr relevance relevance to everyday people must be shown in people's surroundings, combining the convenience of the new with the conservation of the best of the old. +Good old fashioned Local Authority planning. +Accessible, accountable and aesthetically desirable. +Culture, we believe,art is an important ingredient in the quality of life. +And a Percent for Art policy is only a small step towards that. +And we're only seeking up to one percent of development costs. +So let's have none of the crocodile tears about big business. +The problems of big business are not about Percent for Art, they're about your Government's interest rate policies, about unemployment, so don't come crying crocodile tears for big business. +Because they actually welcome Percent for Art. +At the seminar we had a business who wanted to set up a fund to provide the artistic and cultural er facilities for these developments. +So, Percent for Art is about people. +It's been adopted by a large number of Authorities, of which is gonna be one of them I hope. +It's a true partnership, a true partnership between the private and public sector which we know about and you could never achieve. +East district is rich in culture because of the mult multi-cultural population that we've got. +We've got the cultural attractions already, the Museum and other artistic attractions. +We believe Percent for Art will be successful with th with the people of . +It's not worthy, Councillor to try and link trivial trivial politics to score points, to score points, to score points, to score points to score points at the attacks on people with disabilities, in the trivial way that you did because you couldn't remember the policy. +Percent for Art is a part of our long term promotion to make a city of culture, which we will do with the support of people. +So stop playing politics cos you don't know how to do it. +Councillor +My Lord Mayor, under standing order A fifteen B, I move the vote now be put. +everybody to understand that we're actually voting on this procedure of motions, not er not that the er question be now put so so +The Lord Mayor +No +Councillor ? +Yes +Councillor ? +Yes +Councillor ? +Yes +Councillor ? +Yes +Councillor ? +No +Councillor ? +Yes +Councillor ? +Yes +Councillor ? +No +Councillor ? +Yes +Councillor ? +Yes +Councillor ? +No +Councillor ? +No +Councillor ? +Yes +Councillor ? +Yes +Councillor ? +No +Councillor ? +Councillor ? +No +Councillor ? +No +Councillor ? +Yes +Councillor ? +Yes +Councillor ? +Yes +Councillor ? +No +Councillor ? +Yes +Councillor ? +No +Councillor ? +Councillor ? +Councillor ? +No +Councillor ? +Yes +Councillor ? +Yes +Councillor ? +No +Councillor ? +No +Councillor ? +Yes +Councillor ? +Yes +Councillor ? +No +Councillor ? +Councillor ? +Yes +Councillor ? +Yes +Councillor ? +No +Councillor ? +Yes +Councillor ? +No +Councillor ? +Yes +Councillor ? +No +Councillor ? +No +Councillor ? +Yes +Councillor ? +Yes +Councillor ? +Yes +Councillor ? +Councillor er ? +No +Councillor ? +Yes +Councillor ? +No +Councillor ? +Yes +Councillor ? +Yes +Councillor ? +Yes +Councillor ? +Yes +Councillor ? +No +Councillor ? +No +Councillor ? +No +Councillor ? +No +Councillor Mrs ? +No +Councillor ? +No +Councillor ? +Yes +Councillor ? +Yes +Councillor ? +Yes +Councillor ? +Yes +Councillor ? +Yes +Councillor ? +No +Councillor ? +Yes +Councillor ? +No +Councillor ? +Councillor ? +Yes +Councillor ? +Yes +Councillor ? +No +Councillor ? +No +Councillor ? +No +Councillor ? +Councillor ? +Yes +Councillor ? +Yes +Councillor ? +Yes +Councillor ? +Yes +Councillor ? +Yes +Councillor Mrs ? +No +Councillor ? +No +Councillor ? +Yes +Councillor ? +No +Councillor er ? +No +Councillor ? +Yes +Councillor ? +Yes +Councillor ? +No +Councillor ? +Yes +Councillor ? +Yes +Two +That is clearly carried. +Fifty one votes for, thirty six against. +We will, I'm now going to vote on the two er items that've been discussed but before so doing, before so doing, may I bi be permitted to congratulate those new members of Council who have made, I think, excellent +Now to item eleven, the Percentage for Art policy. +Those in favour of amendment D moved by Councillor ? +Thank you. +Oh +Time wasting +pure time wasting is this +The Lord Mayor +No +Councillor ? +No +Councillor ? +No +Councillor ? +No +Councillor ? +No +Councillor ? +Yes +Councillor ? +No +Councillor ? +Councillor ? +Yes +Councillor ? +No +Councillor ? +No +Councillor ? +Yes +Councillor ? +Yes +Councillor ? +No +Councillor +Councillor ? +No +Councillor ? +Yes +Councillor ? +No +Councillor ? +No +Councillor ? +Yes +Councillor ? +No +Councillor ? +Councillor ? +No +Councillor Mrs ? +Yes +Councillor ? +No +Councillor ? +Yes +Councillor ? +No +Councillor ? +Councillor ? +Yes +Councillor ? +No +Councillor ? +No +Councillor ? +Yes +Councillor ? +Yes +Councillor ? +Yes +Councillor ? +No +Councillor ? +Yes +Councillor ? +No +Councillor ? +No +Councillor ? +No +Councillor ? +Yes +Councillor ? +Yes +Councillor +Co +Councillor ? +Councillor ? +Councillor ? +Yes +Councillor ? +Yes +Right +Councillor ? +No +Councillor ? +Yes +Councillor ? +Yes +Councillor ? +No +Councillor ? +No +Councillor ? +No +Councillor er ? +Councillor Mrs ? +Yes +Councillor ? +No +Councillor ? +Yes +Councillor ? +No +Councillor ? +No +Councillor ? +No +Councillor ? +No +Councillor ? +Yes +Councillor Mrs ? +Yes +Councillor ? +Yes +Councillor ? +Yes +Councillor Mrs ? +Councillor ? +Yes +Councillor ? +No +Councillor ? +No +Councillor ? +No +Councillor ? +No +Councillor ? +Yes +Councillor ? +No +Councillor ? +Councillor ? +No +Councillor ? +No +Councillor ? +No +Councillor ? +Yes +Councillor ? +Yes +Councillor ? +Yes +Councillor ? +No +Councillor ? +No +Councillor ? +No +Councillor ? +No +Councillor ? +No +Councillor ? +No +Councillor Mrs ? +Yes +Councillor ? +Yes +Councillor ? +No +Councillor ? +Yes +Councillor er ? +Yes +Councillor ? +No +Councillor ? +No +Councillor ? +Yes +Councillor ? +No +Councillor ? +No +two four six eight ten +The amendment was lost +Hurray +Ah, shame +Fifty one against, thirty six for. +Will tho we'll then move on to those in favour of the substantive motion please show +fifty one thirty six +fifty one in favour +Fi that is carried, fifty one in favour +count the votes against +You want to vote, do you? +Right oh. +Those against. +You're just wasting time. +Go on. +Fifty one, and the vote's dropped to thirty four now. +Item si +Item sixteen, people with disabilities. +Those in favour of the substantive motion please show +yes +Go on, it's fifty one, go on. +Fifty one. +Fifty one Lord Mayor. +Th those who re really want to vote against +That's carried, fifty one thirty six. +Well, it's carried, fifty one, it's gone up to thirty six now. +The next i +The next item is er item twelve, social partnership. +Call upon Councillor to move the recommendation of the Community Environment Services Committee, together with amendment E standing in his name. +I move Lord Mayor +Seconder? +Seconded Lord Mayor +Call upon Councillor to move amendment F standing in her name +I so move Lord Mayor +Seconded? +Seconded Lord Mayor +Ok +My Lord Mayor under standing order A fifteen B I move the vote now be put +Those in favour that the vote be now put? +can't can't do it because +Those against? +That is carried, fifty one thirty six against. +Move on to item thirteen. +I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry to rush the thing, I'm trying to rush the thing. +Those in favour of the amendment moved by Councillor ? +thirty six +Twenty six? +thirty six +Those against? +fifty one thirty six +That that's lost, fifty one to thirty six. +Now will those in favour of the s substantive motion please show? +Which which I remember incorporates the amendment moved by +By Councillor +Those against? +Thirty six +That is carried, fifty one thirty four. +Item thirteen car parking. +In accordance with standing order A twelve C enforced at the time, Councillor m notice of motion on car parking was referred to the Cou by the Council on the twenty third of April 1991 to the Community and Environment Services Committee. +The report of the Committee is set out in committee document B referred to on the agenda. +At the same time Cou at the same Council meeting two amendments to the motion were formally moved by ex Councillor and Councillor respectively, and seconded and we were also submitted to the Committee. +Call upon Councillor to move amendment G standing in his name. +I move Lord Mayor +Is there a seconder? +Seconded Lord Mayor +I call upon Councillor to move amendment H standing in his name +I move Lord Mayor +Is there a seconder +Seconded Lord Mayor +Mhm mhm +Councillor . +My Lord Mayor, under standing order A fifteen B I move the vote now be put. +All those in favour the vote be now put? +Fifty +Those against? +undermined by those who see them as an alternative channel for immigration, the many spoiling it for the few yet again. +Lord Mayor it is clear that this country cannot sustain the present numbers of applicants seeking asylum. +We simply cannot allow immigration control to become optional. +Nor must we let the institution of asylum be undermined by abuse. +Thank you Lord Mayor +Lord Mayor under standing orders A fifteen B I move the vote now be put. +Seconded My Lord. +Those in favour? +forty seven +Mhm? +Eh? +Is there forty seven? just walking back +forty eight +Against +carried forty eight to thirty two +That's carried, forty eight to thirty two. +So we move to those in favour of amendment M moved by Councillor please show? +Those against +Mhm? +that's thirty two fifty +That is lost, thirty two to fifty. +Those in favour of the substantive motion please show +fifty one +Those against? +carried fifty one to thirty +That's carried, fifty one to thirty +Mhm? +Now, now then, there's still some business to be transacted. +I don't think we're going to be able to get it through. +Now it's entirely in your hands. +We can continue and try and finish the business before we have tea or we can decided to have tea. +Those in favour of breaking for tea now, please show +Those against +We well it's a democratic decision, is that. +I find it rather a surprising one but good. +The next one, the next item is the City Challenge Initiative. +Call upon Councillor to move the motion together with amendment O standing in his name. +So moved Lord Mayor +Is there a seconder? +Call upon Councillor or Councillor then to move the amendment N standing in his name. +Lord Mayor +Is there a seconder? +In accordance with standing order A thirteen C this motion will stand referred to the Policy and Resources Committee for consideration and report unless the Council decide to deal with it at this meeting. +What are the Council's wishes +S those in favour that we m that we deal with it at this meeting? +Yes, that's clearly carried, so we'll +My Lord Mayor, under standing order A fifteen B I move the the vote now be put. +Seconded my Lord Mayor +Those in favour? +Those against? +forty seven thirty two +That's carried, forty seven to thirty two. +Those in favour of the amendment moved by Councillor ? +Those against? +That is carried, forty seven thirty one and becomes a substantive motion. +Those in favour of the substantive motion please show +Those against? +forty nine thirty one +Carried, forty nine thirty one. +Next item is the Lord Mayor's civic car. +I call upon Councillor to move the vote. +Moved Lord Mayor +Seconded? +Seconded Lord Mayor +Call upon Councillor to move amendment F, no P, sorry. +Seconder? +Seconded Lord Mayor +In accordance with standing orders A thirteen C, this motion will stand referred to Policy and Resources Committee for consideration and report unless the Council decide to deal with it at this meeting. +What are the Council's wishes? +All those in favour? +My Lord Mayor under standing order A fifteen B, I move the vote now be put. +Seconded Lord Mayor +Those in favour? +Those against? +lost, sorry, that's carried, forty nine thirty two +Carried, forty nine thirty two. +So, those in favour of amendment P moved by Councillor ? +Those against? +That's lost, thirty two to forty eight. +So w Mhm? +So, those in favour of the substantive motion please show +That's Councillor motion +It's Councillor it's Councillor motion. +I think vote for that +vote against +Those those against? +lost thirty two to fifty +That's lost, thirty two to fifty +The financial provision of the Council. +Call upon Councillor to move the motion +I move Lord Mayor +Seconded? +Call upon Councillor er to move amendment Q. +I move Lord Mayor +Seconded? +In accordance, er, call upon Councillor to move amendment R standing in her name. +Is there, is there a seconder? +In accordance with standing order a thirteen C this motion will stand referred to the Policy and Resources Committee for consideration and report unless the Council decide to deal with it at this meeting. +What are the Council's wishes? +Lord Mayor +Those in favour? +Clearly carried. +Councillor +to keep to keep the the members of Council from their collective tea at this time of the evening, but my group feels it is necessary to put forward the people of the acute financial situation of this Council, a situation which is deteriorating rapidly, and began to deteriorate in May last year, May 1990. +In the final accounts to p to Policy and Resources for 1990 ninety one, there is a massive two point four million pounds overspent in the education budget. +We had previously only be warned to expect an overspend of one and a half million. +Is this why, we ask ourselves, the Local Education Authority, out of one hundred and thirty teachers it promised extra to employ during this current financial year, there are only sixty three visible new teachers, and sixty seven of them are alas imaginary? +And will the six percent, which the Director of Education has been instructed to save across all central budgets, be enough to cover this years' education overspend? +And will the Chairman of Education awake from his beauty sleep to understand either of those questions? +Now what is the explanation for the discrepancy in the budgetary machinery? +Is it, perhaps, that he controlling group always knew that they would not be able to achieve the original levels of spend but, like true socialists, did not much care? +In referring to the non-collection rates of community charge a few weeks ago, Councillor said, the outstanding debt will cripple essential services and I dread to think what effect it will have on our schools, social services and the state of the streets. +Sadly, the own reaction, his own reaction then was to make a speech to threaten to put more people on to the streets. +This mounting crisis is due to ignoring the illegal actions of residents who will happily use Council services but refuse to pay for their Council services. +That is, refusing to pay their community charge. +A massive twelve point four million pounds is now owed by the non-payer to the law abiding citizens of Bradford. +Indeed, perhaps the most sensible thing that that model of of consistency,Ki Neil Kinnock, has said this year was, law makers must not must not be law breakers. +And he said this, interestingly enough, when referring to the M P,, who's currently enjoying Her Majesty's hospitality. +And what of those, my Lord Mayor, who, although not so full of principle as to refuse payment themselves, actually encourage others to break the law? +And what of Mister and Mister ? +And what indeed Councillor is missing of members of the Labour Group? +When is Councillor going to condemn their actions? +And is Councillor k does Councillor intend to pay his debts this year? +Lord Mayor, I'll tell you a small story. +At one of our constituency surgeries, a retired widow came in to see us concerning the seventeen pounds extra which she would have to pay extra er to cover the other non-payments. +She announced her intention to deduct this er this amount from the total and to send the balance. +She was told that it was the law to pay the full amount and she must pay it in full, and her answer was that it was the law last year that everyone should pay their own bills, and what happened to them? +Nothing happened to them, and that is the way institutions and local democracy will be de-valued. +It's clear, Lord Mayor, that the Labour Group have their own priorities. +One of the priorities is a million pounds that's been spent on community consultation structure and about a quarter of a million on a marketing and public relations unit. +I guess that the people of will realise at the end of this year that the consultation and communication and public relations of this Authority are impeccable, that the quality of messages sent and received is superb and that the volume of such messages is vast. +But will all of it empty a single bin? +Will it feed a pensioner? +Will it comfort a single child? +We're very concerned Lord Mayor about the City Hall pay awards. +We're concerned that the that the Local Authorities of this land, including should have received a demand of twelve a twelve percent minimum for A P T and C, and a minimum wage of nine thousand three hundred and thirty, a level much higher than the Labour Party's own national minimum wage, and indeed higher than the T U C's definition. +National minimum wage, of which has said, the employment consequences would be little short of disastrous and the society backs estimates that up to eight hundred thousand jobs could be destroyed by the minimum wage and of the A E U described the minimum wage as nonsense and said he was flatly opposed to it's introduction in the private sector. +The result, the result of such claims will be a rush to restore differentials and a general inflation in Local Authorities, with no increase in value of services for the community and I ask that the Labour Party should distance itself from this very mis-guided proposal for national wage proposals, minimum national wage proposals. +If this Council means what it says about devolution and customer er customer contracts, it must begin to see that the over-riding need for local divisional pay determination and sub-divisional pay determination that relates reward to the volume, value and standard of service delivered. +And, I say to the Chief Officers of this Authority, that their that their proposed that their proposed claim of fourteen percent is nothing short of disgraceful. +As, as Councillor would have said, and I would remind members of Council that I believe that the Chief Officers of this Council still have pay related to their performance and I am sure that all members, not least the controlling group, will take will take note of that. +And we do hope that the Chief Officers of this Authority will show the commendable st restraint they normally have. +A very small proportion, my Lord Mayor, of of what affects the City's financial position, is your own car, Sir, which I am delighted to see has been plugged into the controlling group's revenue expenditure this year. +It's a relatively modest amount, nine thousand pounds a year. +We are delighted to endorse the decision, delighted to endorse the decision for your car to be er to be provided in proper state and proper style. +We are delighted that the Council wishes wishes you wishes you to drive around in black. +We would we would like to see the controlling group showing equal commitment to keeping all of us in the black. +hear hear +In conclusion, my Lord Member, we all remember we all remember the windfall, the supposed windfall, that Councillor said had been produced by the good housekeeping of the joint bodies of . +It was, of course, nothing of the sort. +It was, that distribution was to prevent a certain Labour Authority in being charge capped. +It was not money that the joint bodies did not require or need. +It was money that the five leaders withdrew and the results have been cuts that threaten the closure of household waste sites in and in . +Is , my Lord Mayor, going to have to find extra money to fi to to fi to fund those sites independently. +If not, and if they close, will boast at least three things. +It will have three priceless reminders of . +It will have Councillor , it will have an overspent and out of control revenue budget and it will have streets and parks strewn with abandoned, rotting,hou household rubbish +Councillor +Thank you my Lord Mayor. +It is interesting, isn't it, that er I knew the road to Damascus was long, but I didn't realise it were that long cos on the second of July the Tories moved an amendment at P and R criticising us for spending money on the Lord Mayor's car, but I'm glad to see that you've come back to the fold. +I think what is interesting, though, is that if you look at the two amendments which are on the audit paper, one deals with speculation er proposed by the Tories. +What I intend to deal with is the record as it stands because anybody who's going to argue a case against the decline of of any kind of system has to put the facts as they are, not as they would wish them to be, and I would argue that the legacy, before we can do that, the legacy which we inherited as a controlling group back in 1990, is now a matter of record I would accept. +But because of the nature, because of the nature of our amendment, we do need to remind the opposition that er prior to that date was facing major social economic problems as vital services in the local economy fell victim to the consequences of planning thirty million out of the budget in order to bring in a low poll tax. +That's where we began. +At that particular time, er, quite right, faced with the failing national economy, and it's got worse than it was then, and an increase in poverty in , this controlling group produced its plan for 1990 ninety one and in it's redirection packages which are now part of our agenda on Council we d we made to pledges, one was to change the nature of Council and the other was to redirect sources on the process of need and we put four point three million on redirection in the first year, four point seven the second year. +We had no new monies during last year and consequently we have no growth. +Now, what's important is the philosophical advice on which those packages came from. +Ours were led on a policy led planning process which was driven by the needs of , which are clearly identified in the an anti poverty strategy which is designed to protect the services, the jobs, to regenerate the local economy and make a better place to live and for children to grow up in. +Area panels which have been so bitterly criticised, and neighbourhood forums, have since confirmed the wisdom of that process and the rejection of a Tory budget process, driven not by the needs of the community but the need to deliver the firm Thatcherite message which is still there, set a poll tax as low as possible and then work your priorities backwards irrespective of the consequences. +I submit, my Lord Mayor, that any decline in the Council's finances, is due primarily to the Tories originally looking for electoral success. +The electorate rejected them and they put that before the quality services and the social responsibility that we have as Councillors, not just to ourselves and our wards, but to the whole district and the community as Councillor continually reminds us. +There are two other documents you have to consider in the monetary and evaluation exercise to see how successful we were in 1990 ninety one, one is called a partnership for quality and the other is called fairer shares, a programme towards an anti strategy. +Both these documents came before this Council in July 1990. +What they were based on, and I I have to say it though, that since poverty in all its forms has proved an intractable enemy to us, and given the limited Council resources that were available, plus the Government, which has consistently attacked Local Authorities and made financial constraints upon us almost impossible to operate, we have we recognise that to analyse the job in hand, first of all we needed an accurate picture of need, we needed to share the commitment with the workforce of Council and all those in partnership of consultation. +We needed imagination, flair and courage and, above all, we needed a political will to be shared by the controlling group. +Now, if you use any financial monitor that we have, and bearing in mind the size of the task, any critical analysis will reveal that this Council, under Labour, can definitely say that it's met the challenge and it's certainly started to make the change. +However, I wouldn't want to simply sit back on our achievement, because there's no room for complacency. +Some of the facts that's been put forward today, I would remind that you that the financial rumblings of the D E at the moment about poll tax levels for this year, standing spending assessments, the increased capping powers that Mister Heseltine will bring forward will make it extremely difficult in this year. +But the asinine policies that were brought through in the th er in the Thatcher era they still are here with us, no matter how they try to get shut of them, the poll tax which has been referred to by Councillor is confusion at its best. +It's the worst thing that's ever come from any political Party and all associated problems live on, and all we have at the moment is one statement after the other from the Ministers which blame the very people that it attacks. +It blames the poor, it blames the unemployed, it blames industry and it blames commerce for the mess that we're in and never says anything about itself. +I want to just scotch the myth that has been put forward by Councillor about the poll tax cos did this at P and R and I will reiterate what the leader said then and I and and quite clearly and soundly, that the Labour Party, both nationally and locally, and this Labour Group do not condone a policy of non-payment either as a principle or as a tactic. +Is that clear? +Have you got that? +Thank you. +Now then, and I think that it's important, well let me let me just deal with the minor diversion that in s those people who choose not to pay, that is a personal choice, and they will take the consequences of their actions. +However, what the poll tax has revealed unequivocally is that there are poverty traps in this city entirely due to that particular tax and those people who are in financial difficulty we do understand the problem they have and we will continue to help. +Now, the evidence is very clear. +I'll produce the evidence for you. +That's not a worry. +Now if you really wanted to help, and you were concerned about that. +But let me give you two + +We people who must vote for the Party if we are ever to win power again. +So, adopt this report, give the thumbs down to those who want to break the links and support a wider form of democracy where the trade union is paying the levy is not only a valuable member of the Party but is valued as well. +We've heard the voice of the Party professionals, we've heard the voice of the Labour leadership, now let's all speak on behalf of the ordinary trade unionists and say with all the force that is necessary on behalf of those millions, men and women, young and old, we support the Party, we pay for the Party, we have a right to democracy in the Party because never forget it is our Party too, I move. +Hear, hear. +Prue , Southwestern region speaking on behalf of the C E C. +President, Congress, I am very pleased to second this C E C statement on how we can strengthen and modernize the links between the Labour Party and trade unions. +Some people in the Labour Party seem to believe that Labour will be better off without the unions. +They don't seem to feel that the democratic organizations of working people are relevant to the new model Labour Party. +The truth is that union members are the backbone of the Labour Party. +We provide the Party with its broad base, we keep it on its feet and when necessary we keep those feet firmly on the ground. +Labour needs members more than ever to help form policies relevant to ordinary people and to get those policies across. +Most Labour supporters in unions played an active part in the last general election and county elections. +We put up posters, we persuaded work colleagues to vote Labour and we made financial contributions. +Instead of closing the door o to its union supporters, Labour should be opening up new ways in. +It's not good enough to say that union members can only participate if they become full members of the Party. +I'm a Labour Party member and I would urge as many people as possible to join in, but I also recognize that many people feel membership demands the time and commitment that they haven't got. +They fear endless meetings and worry that they don't know enough to join in. +These barriers are especially strong for women and younger people. +But the same union members who don't want full membership are particularly keen on other forms of involvement, like voting for Labour's leaders and helping to select Parliamentary candidates. +We should listen to how people actually want to make a contribution and base our structures on their views, instead of rather male structures which demand substantial commitment. +The proposals in this statement do just that. +They will ensure that we all continue to have a say in Labour's decisions and I urge you to support them. +Thanks very much indeed, Prue. +Composite twenty nine, Labour Party trade union and links, Midland Region to move, London Region to second. +President, Congress. +Les , Midlands and East Coast Region, moving composite twenty nine. +One member, one vote sounds very democratic, doesn't it? +Why is it that some general secretaries of certain unions are pushing us down the path of severing our links? +Maybe it is because they don't want to fulfil their financial commitments. +Well, if that's the reason they should at least be honest about it. +At a recent meeting with members of the Shadow Cabinet and trade union leaders, one high profile Shadow Cabinet member argued for, one member, one vote. +When asked how he would fund the Labour Party he said, oh, we would still expect you to pay. +It seems to me that the trade unions are welcomed with open arms whenever money is needed and yet some don't want us to participate. +Comrades, instead of severing our links, we should be strengthening them. +Remember why the Labour Party was formed. +Don't let us do the Tory's work for them by tearing ourselves apart. +I'll tell you what comrades, I'm sick to death of some people in the party shying away from association with us. +They seem to be ashamed of their roots. +Don't they realize we're a part of the same movement? +Let me tell you, I don't want anyone making excuses for me, I'm proud to be a trade unionist and I'm proud to be a Socialist. +You know comrades, it's time we stopped pretending to be something we're not. +This is what we believe in and we are proud of it and maybe, just maybe, we would start winning elections instead of losing them. +We are going through a crucial period. +What this Tory government intends to do is see total destruction of the trade union movements. +We have to make sure in this trade union and labour movement that because there will be struggles ahead, this has to be one that is foremost in our minds. +This conference has to give a message to Jo John Smith to maintain union links, to strengthen them, not destroy them. +Our party is about morolity morality, morality and justice and truth and it's about representing our class, That's what we have got to get back to to win the next election. +Congress, I move. +Morning, Dave , London Region, second in the composite twenty nine. +They say a week in politics is a long time and I now know what they mean. +I came to Congress with my contribution to this debate firmly fixed in my own mind, but unsure of the view of the leadership of our union, given the views quoted to them in the press as their own. +My own view is that the fate of working people, the trade unions and the Labour Party are one and the same and that any attempt to weaken links between us condemns us all to the same failure. +The trade unions depend on effectively representing working people in industrial field for their survival and the Labour Party has to represent the trade unions for their survival in the political field. +I do not feel therefore, there is any crime for the trade union role in, in the constitutional procedure of the Party, whether it be selecting candidates or voting at conference, indeed I feel it is the strength of the movement. +Which do the so called modernizers of the Party prefer, a party of two hundred thousand rift with division and on minority issues or a stable party with the input of four million working people? +You tell me which is more democratic. +Like many I have supported this union's policy my C L P, but also like many I have been hurt and angered by the attempts of some of the Party, both nationally and locally to deride and belittle the unions as a thing of the past and not relevant to the Party's new media image and that working class issues were not worth presenting at elections because they are unpopular with the tabloids. +The modernizers have had their chance. +This union has been more than tolerant with them. +We offered them on the basis of them creating a mass membership party. +This they have plainly not been able to do and yet they still try and bounce us along the same old route through their friends in the media. +For many of us, even the options of support registers and levy plus, are schemes whether they are dubious starters. +We feel it is now right and proper that the debate is to be had and that our roots, our heritage and our future are defended on our terms and in our forums and not in the editorials of Sunday newspapers, and as for les people's letters to the newspapers, and Kinnock and co saying to people, individual members, why should the Labour Party not trust you with the choice of your candidate, it is you who do the work to get them elected, who are they kidding? +What did we do at the election, did we sit on our arses? +No, it was our members out there, and this letter is typical of the contempt with which they seem to hold our members. +We are not just here to be leaflet and voting fodder for professional politicians, we are here to take a part in our party, and we will defend that right. +I second the composite. +Well said that. +Motion three nine six, Lancashire Region, G M B, Parliamentary Panel. +Duncan , Lancashire Region, moving motion three nine six. +Congress, the erm, nineteen eighty three, the gang of four, ten years on, nineteen ninety three. +Perhaps what we're seeing is the emergence of a gang of five. +We saved the party in nineteen eighty three, the G M B saved the party in that er,a crisis time th with the formation of the S D P and today the Tory government on its knees, staggering along and we have some people in the leadership of the Party and including, we can name them now, somebody's written,writte written to all the constituencies, Neil Kinnock, who have given up the ghost of Labour ever winning again, and that's what's the base and the root of what's going on, that's why they want these proposals going through, they want to separate the trade unions from the Party so they can do a deal with the Liberals because they've given up. +Tha that's the reality of the situation, as I see it and people in my constituency +Dun Duncan you are on three nine six by the way are ya? +Yep. +Oh. +You told me three, nine, six. +Yes, no I was just wondering, that's all. +Yep, I'm gonna get there +Ti the clock is running very fast Duncan. +Right, okay, so the situation we're in today is that we're actually got to defend our Party, the Party is the whole labour movement, from that political direction in which the leadership or ex-leadership and some people in the Parliamentary Party seem to want to take us. +I'm very active in the Party in Manchester and er would support the union and the region er, as a constituency er constituency member and I, you know, spend hours every week trying to ke keep this, keep the Party in Manchester going and I think that what we've actually got, what we're seeing inside the Parliamentary Party, are a number of people who seem to have forgotten who they're supposed to be representing. +I think what we actually want is more people who are more in tune with working people and their hopes, and their dreams and their aspirations, and tha in, in parliament, in the House of Commons than we've got at the moment and so the motion I'm putting forward which is to propose that we actually look at the Parliamentary Panel and make sure we get a few decent shop stewards in the House of Commons, a few people who got experience of actually being on the shop floor, a few people who got experience in the last fourteen years, that the last four Conservative governments have actually tried and defend and fight for the interests of working people right down the grass root, those are the people that we actually need in the House of Commons and we shall be looking at our Parliamentary Panel and we shall be looking at it very seriously to ensure that we get those sort of people onto that Parliamentary Panel and those sort of people into the House of Commons, that's the best way to represent working people in Britain today and that's the sort of contribution the G M B should be making. +I move. +I'm here again, Dick. +Dave , Lancashire Region. +Last time today. +We're talking about three nine six G M B Parliamentary Panel Dick and I'll just have to follow Duncan, he had his little rhetoric on the Labour Party that he's he believes in so much. +Well, I also believe, as I said earlier, that we should have p MPs who represent the G M B about MPs who represent theirselves, for what they can get out of it, what kudos they can get out of it, but leave the activists to do all the work for 'em, to do all the work. +Therefore if we have activists who are put on the panel alib fi safe seats, marginals or unwinnable seats and we've been in some areas where it's been unwinnable, haven't we Dick, we've still canvassed, we've got the votes up,p places like Macclesfield where they got Nicholas Winterton, where they got that racist Churchill. +We've still been there. +But eventually we're gonna get people in, if the C E C take up our recommendations from Manchester's one one five branch, that we're gonna get people who represent the members of the G M B, the working class, the people that we want to be represented. +With the Parliamentary Panel now, as it says on the motion, there's a lot up for retirement. +There'll be a lot of people vying for those places as well. +I also have seen in Oldham near where I live, where an MP was imposed on that was held by Lamont for twenty two years, lived in Aberdeen I think it was, came to Oldham once a week to do his surgery and they put somebody in from the T N G. +Don't know how it happened, but he got there and he lives in London now. +Oldham about must be the only place where the l MPs have never seen the town. +Why not get people that is activists and Oldham might well the branch for Oldham you've got Dave from Stockport they've got a MP retiring, they're getting on now, you've had, we've had your time now, for God's sake go you've been there long enough, let's get the activists in, let's get G M B members and let's get this parliament back to what it should be and not the Tories. +Thank you. +Right colleagues, I now propose to go round the regions and invite regional speakers on the Labour Party trade union links er document, Liverpool, do you wish to put a speaker in? +And if it is the intention of regions to put speakers on, especially those regions that are situated at back of Congress, if the speakers could come to the front it would save a great deal of time. +Alan , Liverpool, North Wales and Irish Region. +President, Congress. +Liverpool and North Wales support this document. +Unfortunately colleagues, colleagues from London, from Northern Ireland sorry, have no say. +Sorry about that lads. +Mind you there's a lot of Northern Ireland lads in London anyway, erm we think that when our members voted to return the political levy they also voted to continue to have a say in the running of the Labour Party. +The Labour Party was set up by the trade unions and is still funded by the trade unions. +The Labour Party front bench must realize that the ordinary trade union members voted, as I said before, for a say in the Party. +We'll need to go back to them again shortly. +Will they vote in the same way if their right to have a say is taken away from them? +As I said before, two thirds of our regions support the document. +Midland Region. +Peggy , Midland, East Coast Region, speaking to the C E C statement. +The Labour Party was founded in the nineteen hundreds. +After a decision of the Trade Union Congress which brought together trade unions and socialist societies. +The financial strength that the trade union link has brought to the Labour Part Party is vital. +To the functions of the Party itself, therefore trade unions provide the Labour Party with resources in money and organizational support. +Britain is virtually the only country in western Europe where there is not now substantial state finance for our pol a polit political parties. +The trade unions are directly linked to more than eight million people. +The union membership leads to a ten percent h h higher like likelihood of voting Labour. +The misleading public image of the unions and the role within the Labour Party is encouraged by the Tories and the Liberal Deb Democrats and their friends, the mass media. +There can be no justification for the comments we have heard from certain leaders of right wing er trade unions, who wish to take away the very principle of what we're talking about, the block vote, especially one, when one of 'em, allegedly, who haven't even bothered to pay their contributions to the General Election Fund. +And I'm certainly not prepared to take any advice from them, when they can't even pay their way in the Labour Party. +So why should we pander to the media and the right-wingers of the Party? +The Labour Party cannot and will not survive without the affiliation of the trade union movement. +What the right-wingers are saying is that we will have the trade unions' money but we will not give 'em the right to vote. +Well I say to them, they can go to hell. +I'm a Socialist,i but it's a swear word now, well I am proud to be a Socialist so I will stand up and be counted. +We support the views arrived at by the C E C, we should be proud of our title the Labour Party and shout from the hi highest rooftops where we live and work. +The media campaign mentioned yesterday should be put in into operation immediately. +Diluting our principles will not get us elected to power. +Midland and East Coast Regions support the document. +Congress, we ask you to do likewise. +Thank you. +Whilst the, the London Region speakers come into the rostra I'll just make the point, Peggy in fact is only the third women that's spoken this morning. +I know that we've a long way today er to go today but would you just bear that in mind colleagues. +Right Ed. +Congress, President. +Ed , Westminster trade union Political Staffs Branch, London Region. +Speaking against one member, one vote but also speaking against the half-hearted document that has been put out by the C E C. +Before starting comrades I think it's time that we nailed a couple of lies that are being put about, about this union and other trade unions. +The first is that we're two disparate organizations, the Labour Party and the G M B. +Well I'm gonna prove that's not the case. +Could all Labour Party members in the audience, in the delegations, put their hands in the air please. +Labour Party members. +There you go comrades, every, nearly every single delegate is a Labour Party member. +We are the Labour Party. +Eh, that was clever. +That was very clever. +The spin doctors around the lad Labour leadership have claimed that the links need to be changed. +Well, like most of you I spent four weeks during the general election out on the doorstep. +I was in Mitchenham more than a marginal, which sadly the Tories retained and my own seat in Wantage, which also is a safe Tory seat. +Not once was it mentioned, not once the links between Labour and the unions, nobody was interested. +They were though interested in some of our policies which they weren't very happy with, but that seems to be ignored at the moment. +What I would like to see colleagues is a slight change. +Stop listening to people, such as Mr Kinnock, who has now written out to C L Ps telling them that they should be changing the way that the unions are linked to this Labour Party, not at all. +It's time that they looked at themselves. +They've lost four times and they should be asking themselves why. +It's not the union movement that's lost the elections. +What I would like to see now is a turn, sorry turning to the document what I would like to see is actually a change of direction. +What we are looking to do here is to water down what we have at the moment. +I don't think that's necessary. +The register of supporters wouldn't work. +Can you imagine it comrades, you would have a position in which we attempt to put into place a bureaucratic list of people who are meant to be Labour supporters, they aren't Labour members. +I can see the problems now, people come up to you and whisper in your ear, how comes he's on the list, I saw him going into the Liberal club or the Tory club the other day, he's not a Labour supporter. +No, it's not a good idea at all, we should stick with what we have at the moment, the representation of people who opt to pay the political levy. +That is the sensible way forward. +Moving on, another suggestion is that we should ballot our members about who we vote for as M for MPs and also for the leader of the Party. +Well that's fine, but why should it be down to thirty percent? +We represent over four million levy paying members, the trade unions that is, and it's only right that they should have a proper say in the election of the Lad Labour leader, not just the thirty percent as is being suggested here. +Comrades, it's time that this union, along with other trade unions, made it absolutely clear to the Labour leadership, we are the Labour Party, it is us that gives resources, our time, our money, everything to try and get them elected and it's time they stopped kicking us in the teeth at times such as this. +I move that we reject this report and that we have proper links with the Labour Party. +Thank you. +G M B Scotland +President, Comrades. +Ian , G M B Scotland. +If what Gerald said in his address to Congress yesterday that he knows of no Labour MP who wants to break the links between the Party and the unions were absolutely true then there would be no need for this debate today. +But the harsh reality is that that is not the case. +For the last fourteen years the trade union movement has shouldered the blame for the Labour Party's dismal showing in the general elections. +The press blamed us for Labour's defeat, the Tories blamed us for Labour's defeat and now it looks as thought the Labour Party is blaming us for Labour's defeat. +What an appalling state of affairs. +The Labour Party and the trade union movement are bonded together because we share the same objectives. +We both fight for social justice, we both strive for a better quality of life for our people and most importantly we both demand equality. +The trade union movement can't succeed on its own, the Labour Party would most definitely fail without us. +President, the movement has taken a luckily approach in the political er arena for a number of years now. +We've been made to feel ashamed of our actions, of the past. +We've been accused of screwing employers into the ground by our demands. +Shameful, I'll tell ya what's shameful. +The actions of Hoover and its attempts to undermine the wages and conditions of union members. +The disgraceful way ordinary, moderate men and women have been sacked at Timex and the way this government cheapened the working man and woman in this country by rejecting the Social Charter and by portraying Britain as a low wage economy. +That's what's shameful in our society and it's only the Labour Party in unison with our movement that can right the wrongs of the past fourteen years. +Comrades, what we are asking of the Party is quite simple, the extension of democracy. +What everybody must realize is this, the trade union movement is the meat on the Labour Party's bones and without us the Party would be a skeleton, lost in a political wilderness. +President, I'd like to finish with a mo much publicized phrase, from a political skeleton and the Labour Party should take heed, we are, we are thick, we are well, we are here and we are staying. +I support. +Hear, hear. +Southwestern Region. +Twenty years ago I joined the Labour Party when I was eighteen years old which gives an idea of how old I am now. +That was before I was working, before I was a trade union member. +For eight years I was a county councillor having won a seat from the Conservative Party. +Throughout that period I've canvassed for the Labour Party, I've campaigned for the Labour Party, I've argued for the Labour Party and one of the items that made me join the Labour Party and one of the items I got other people to join the Labour Party was that Labour was a mass Party, because it consisted of hundreds of thousands of individual members and it consisted of millions of trade unionists. +That was the pe appeal to me, that it represented the labour movement, it represented the working class at large. +I've argued that for twenty years, now suddenly overnight it's become unfashionable and let's make it clear why it's become unfashionable. +It's become unfashionable because the media is now looking at an alternative scapegoat for the problems the Conservative Party, that's why it's a reason and what is arising from the Labour leadership at the moment is purely an attempt to placate the media. +Congress, I joined the Labour Party and I became a Socialist, I remain a member of the Labour Party, I remain a Socialist, I'm a trade unionist, I won't give up my Labour Party membership and I won't give up my involvement to my trade union and my linkage between the trade union movement and the Labour Party without a fight. +I support this ma er motion. +Southern Region. +Southern Region, wanna put a speaker in? +Okay. +Mickey Southern Region. +President, Congress. +Supporting in the C E C statement and Labour Party trade union links. +What is there to say er what's not been said already yesterday, today, last year's meetings and in the last ten years. +We are here pash passing motions, not to tell the TUs or the employers what went wrong, what's wrong. +No, we're telling the government, we're telling them they've got it wrong excuse me. +Every working person, every unemployed person, every pensioner knows only too well they've got it wrong. +It's not the fat cats we gotta take notice of, who steal the cream and leave us with the sil sour milk even. +President, we don't need on our door. +Let's tell the world they've got it wrong. +Don't they know that. +Poverty, low pay,repossessions, crimes, hardships. +You're staying in Portsmouth, spending a lot of cash, or generally we do. +How much of that goes back into Tory funds, through the businesses, shops, the places you're staying? +They don't ask your permission, if you wish that money to go into Tory funds. +They want to stop our political levy and only half of the Tory funds is answerable for, from where they get it. +If I can go onto the local theme a little, chair. +Crime, in the first six months of Portsmouth in the residential areas on the outskirts, not in the town centre, five hundred and eighty break-ins into houses, eighty seven break-ins into houses. +A hundred and thirty one of those were people who were out to work or unoccupied. +Thirty seven of those were through doors what were left open or windows what were left open. +Openg opportunity to just get a few bob. +Car crime, nine hundred and sixty cars so far this year have been broke into in the Portsmouth, bearing in mind yours are around the town. +Three hundred and seven of 'em are stolen, ninety one still not been repossessed. +Twenty percent, twenty five percent of the crime committed em nationally, is by people under the age of sixteen. +Twenty five percent, again, of sixteen to twenty five years old. +Not much hope of a job, not much chance of a million young people who are trying to find cash or work, a waste of skills, a whole generation. +Nearly one out of three sixteen year olds are without work, not much for the Tory law and order. +Now you hear more cuts in the D S S, medical prescriptions, V A T on heating, light, more crime for cash. +Our national income per head is lower than the French, it's falling below that on Hong Kong. +Every month twenty thousand manufacturing jobs go. +John, to get to the point, we've had a bus in Portsmouth plastered with G M B slo slogans, a talking point of Portsmouth for the last fortnight. +What a good talking point, people didn't know what the G M B was, didn't know what they actually truly stood for with all the publicity what we do, all the good work we do lately, locally. +Let's get the message over, let's go without one congress and I know that's near to John's heart and request the other unions, A E U, U C A T, T N G, request the T N, T U C to do the same and then plaster over every bus in Britain, the G M B's policy. +Let's get Labour in, let's get our motion starting to work, let's keep the Labour Party trade union link, it's our only friend we've got in Parliament. +For better conditions, less crime, a better Britain and the way ahead, Southern support. +Northern Region. +Here's Billy. +Alright Billy. +Billy Northern Region. +President, colleagues. +I have over the years many times come to the rostrum but for the first time it gives me no pleasure at all in saying what has to be said. +Not so long ago the Labour was singing the praises of the trade union movement, especially the G M B, yet, only last night on T V a Shadow Minister, David said the G M B were wrong in what they were doing, they should be behind John Smith. +I thought only Tories done U-turns. +Because we have all heard John Smith in the past say, I would rather lose an arm than lose the support of the G M B. +Colleagues, in the words of Chief Sitting Bull man with pale face speaks with forked tongue. +Remember colleagues, it was our union under the leadership of Will Thorn that pushed for and formed the Labour Party. +We should not allow John Smith and his hitmen to take it from us. +For fourteen years we have been bashed by the Tories, we have been led by a pound of poof T U C and as now it's time to stand up and be counted. +If the Labour Party, if the Labour Party want our money then we want some influence and we don't, and we, and if they don't want to represent the views of our members they can do without our money. +The link with Labour has got to be more than just signing a cheque. +You might ask what does it cost the G M B, with affiliation fees, etcetera etcetera etcetera, around three million a year. +Over the last fourteen years forty two million pounds and if they go on the way their going on and the way they're talking it's all gonna be for nicks nowt . +Just think, colleagues, what we could have done with forty two million pounds, we could have had a conference twice a year not the biannual conference they're on about. +Our, our minimum demand colleagues must be one, a reformed if electoral college for a selection of leader and for candidates, to a continual role for trade unions at conference. +It makes me wonder colleagues, why this issue has been promoted lately. +Do some politicians deliberately wish to provoke conflict amongst us and it's not just about money, many G M B members volunteer. +We've had the speakers up here saying that they're going out, they're knocking on doors, so you know, it's not just about money, but I tell you what if they go on in the way they're going on there's no way Joe Bloggs is going out quite tonight on a vote night saying come out and give us your vote. +That's all gonna be finished an'all, man. +And there'll be plenty like me. +This morning, this morning you know, I'm right up with the news isn't I? +This morning John Smith says he is saddened by John 's remarks, he thinks it will give some material to John Major, I've got news for him, many times I've been saddened when he's said nowt to John Major when all the clangers he's dropped. +So, they don't want us to have a say in the Labour Party. +There's nobody,nobody can tell me that the big national companies who pour money into the Tory fund, that they don't have a say in their policy. +Who do they think they're kidding ? +I'll tell you another thing, whatever the Spitting Images say about John he pays his money, he doesn't grab his bermuda shorts and a wristwatch and fly off to the sunny islands. +Colleagues, colleagues, let me remind you once more, they need us more than we need them. +G M B members should be always full members, no influence, no penance for our members, no way. +It's our Party and we should not give up without a fight. +Thank you. +Well done, Billy. +Er. +Lancashire. +Follow that, Duncan. +Yeah, I can't +I'm not going to attempt to. +Duncan , Lancashire Region, supporting the er t the C E C statement. +I mean it's quite clear isn't it what we wa we want a party of Labour, we're organized, we're organized mass organization that speaks for almost a million people in this union, I don't but er, almost a million people. +We're speaking for working people in this country and we are a reliable indicator of the feelings, the dreams, the hopes of working people right across the country and any party that attempts to divorce itself from an organization such as ours, that attempts to speak for working people will lose its way. +At the same time,d the Tories are on their knees, some people, as I said earlier, I think it's just as relevant in this debate, seem to have lost their way and when you took, look at what they're proposing in terms of say, the er the fifty percent, the, the er M Ps, fifty percent of the votes for er the Parliamentary leader which of course is very consistent with , right, fifty percent of the vote, you take that along with proportional representation and what I believe you're seeing is the number of people who have given up the ghost and are preparing to restructure the Party around coalition politics, and that's where they're heading, and they're heading completely in the wrong direction because we're more in tune with what's going on in this country, the po opinion polls are saying fifty nine percent of the people actually I think, believe that er the Labour government is possible and will be voting for a Labour government, the alternative road is to oblivion and it's not about modernizing, the people who're proposing this coalition politics aren't modernizers, they're Victorian politics, that's what they're about, they're about taking us back, back before we created the Party, before we learnt the lesson that we needed to represent ourselves politically, they're going back to, let's skil see what we get out of the Liberals, the free trade Liberals, in the nineteenth century, that's where they're going back, that's not about modernization, real modernization is about making sure that the Labour Party speaks for the working people up and down this country and that's our contribution to make to that Party and therefore we should have a role in decision making and influencing the Party that enables us as an organization to express that feeling, and that understanding of what people actually want in this country, and that's why we're supporting the C E C proposals. +Now, there's an, there's an alternative being put forward as a compromise, but a a compromise isn't a compromise, the compromise as it looks er involving us, and we're all Party members, as already indicated, as individuals and saying top up, let's top up, we're already paying aren't we, the political levy, let's pay a bit more, right, is actually one that reduces our input as an organization. +Now I supported Prescott, I must say I voted for him for the er for deputy leader, right, but I think he's wrong, right, on this particular issue, this compromise that he's floating and I think it should be dropped. +I think we should be going with the C E C proposals and we should maintain our influence and our role in the Party as a collective organization, a mass organization, of over eight hundred thousand members and will be steadily rising in the foreseeable future. +I support on behalf of Lancashire Region. +Thanks Duncan. +Yorkshire Region +President, Congress. +Dave , Yorkshire and North Derbyshire Region speaking in support of the C E C sta statement. +Colleagues, one hundred years ago in Bradford trade unionists and Socialists got together to form the Independent Labour Party which was the forerunner of the Labour Party as we know it today. +In those days although there were some independent groups of radicals and others of no elite, allegiance the two main parties in Parliament were the Whigs and the Tories. +Very few MPs were interested in the wor working people's demand. +Trade unionists knew that they could only achieve a limited level of their ambitions through industrial means and they realized that they needed working class MPs to support them in parliament. +They knew that they needed to form a political party that have three main aims, the need for working class M Ps, the need for an independent party to represent working people, the need for a to propagate new Socialist ideals. +The Party was formed for those reasons. +Since then, by working together we have achieved many of our aims. +Unfortunately, most of them bo achievements are now under threat. +Old age pensions, compensation for accidents and injuries at work, free education for all children, the National Health Service, legislation regarding unfair dismissal and the nationwide public transport. +After fourteen years of Tory rule all these and many other achievements are seriously threatened. +We have already experienced the abolition of free eye and dental checks, we are suffering from the creeping privatization of the Health Service, the selling off of our water, our crumbling schools, and yet we have to concentrate on the issue of trade union, Labour Party links. +Trade unionists did not lose Labour the last election. +Quite the opposite. +Once again the trade unions working individually and through the trade unions for Labour pulled out all the stops to try and secure a Labour victory. +I am not convinced that this issue should be on the political agenda at all, not at this time, not at any time, in fact I am pretty convinced that this is a Tory agenda, a media agenda, why they do they not want to talk about crooks and spivs that support them, that donate thousands of pounds into their coffers? +They want to set our agenda. +They want to create a division in our ranks. +It is the oldest trick in the book, divide and conquer. +We accept modernization, we understand that the card or the block vote is one of the most misunderstood aspects of Labour Party procedure. +It is criticized by the Tories and the media and of course they never explain how it works, so it is not surprising that the general public is suspicious of it. +The G M B is a progressive union, we can support constructive change but we cannot support any changes that will disenfranchise ourselves from our Party. +Remember, the Labour Party was formed for working people because we had an unsympathetic Tory government. +All the top jobs were taken by people from privileged backgrounds. +There was an enormous gap between the rich and the poor, nothing has changed. +Interestingly enough Larry Witty, the General Secretary of the Labour Party, said at last year's Labour Party Conference that if it had not been for the steadily, steady influence of the unions during the eighties, when the Party was tearing itself in two, we would not have a Labour Party today. +A recent G M B poll showed that sixty nine percent of people thought the unions should support Labour to balance big biglifs big business and what a major balancing act that is. +The shipping and construction group P & O gave a hundred thousand pounds to the Tory election fund. +Public relations Company Shanwick gave the same. +Defence contractors Rolls Royce gave sixty thousand pounds, while United Newspapers, owners of the Express and the Star upped their donation last year. +These people have the audacity to question our links, our legitimate links with our Party. +Colleagues, we must ensure that the links are strengthened and not weakened. +Too many people, the old, the young and the unemployed, working people in all occupations do not maintain our bond. +Remember why the Labour Party was formed, remember who formed it, nothing has changed. +Thank you. +Birmingham Region +President, Congress. +Rose , Birmingham Region and I make it very clear on the onset that our Region is having a free vote on this because we haven't had the opportunity to discuss the document and therefore what I'm saying is purely my own views. +The statement before us on the Labour Party and the trade union links sets aside various recommendations on how we are going to cast our block vote at this year's Labour Party Conference on this issue the options open to us are listed in this paper and I'd like to make the following observations. +We as a trade union have been in the forefront of campaigning and supporting the Labour Party, not just as, in its election battle, but in attempting to modernize the Party's thinking, the Party administration, be it on the issue of quotas for women, on policy making, on finances and on the block vote. +The G M B should be proud of this role, however politics and negotiations are all about compromise and not about head-on collisions and we try and avoid these as much as possible. +Therefore I believe we can still arrive at a compromise on the options in the statement. +Let's look at the recommendation of the C E C on the selection of parliamentary candidates. +They suggest we support a reformed electoral college for the next round of selection, every transition towards the use of the register of Labour supporters for subsequent selection. +I think we should say here and now that we support option one B, registered supporters as a compromise. +I say this because I believe that those constitutional issues have to be decided once and for all at this year's Party Conference. +We shouldn't adopt stands that we try this now and try something else next time round, which I believe is what the C E C is recommending. +Turning now to the C E C recommendation on the election of the Labour Party leader and deputy leader. +I support the recommendation of five B but the vote by trade unions and Socialist societies should be a ballot of registered Labour supporters. +President, Congress, the introduction in the C E C statement is a laudable one and part of it states, and I quote, the G M B and others have asserted that reform means democratizing and strengthening the links by giving direct votes to individual union members. +We as activists hold very special the important role trade unions have played in the Labour Party and feel that we have a continued role to play. +However, in the need to arrive at a compromise and not to have full blown confrontation, a register of Labour supporters is the answer. +At least that way I shall feel more confident that it's Labour Party members and supporters who are selecting candidates and electing the leader and deputy leader of the Labour Party and not a Liberal or Tory trade unionist who happens to be paying the political levy. +Thanks very much indeed Rose. +I am now gonna call the General Secretary to respond briefly to the debate, colleagues. +Well colleagues, there are couple of points that were raised that I think need a response. +The last was Rose's comment about the register. +Yeah, well the trouble with the register was that er, when it was put forward, and it was put forward by Tom Burlison and Tom Sawyer of , er and they worked very, very hard, no one harder than Tom Burlison, to try to establish this possibility as a compromise to avoid the sort of conflicts that we're talking about at the moment. +It wasn't our best position, but the supporters of O M O V wouldn't listen, wouldn't consider and you've heard Tom's record of those sad events, and of course then we were told that the Party leader says it would be administratively impossible to put the register in place this year in any event. +So, that's why we went back to the reformed electoral college. +Ed , I think argued a very strong case for a greater level of influence of trade unionists in the Party than is suggested in this reform and I can see the force of those remarks but the C E C adopted the position that we did not want to take a position of dominance to the Party Conference. +We wanted levy payers to have a say but a say within the broad sweep of Labour Party opinions. +We deliberately went for a position of responsibility and moderation in this argument, where if I may say so, some other people haven't put the same constraints on themselves. +Two further points, Dave expressed it best, I think. +The supporters of O M O V have put their arguments in what can only be said to be a ham-fisted and insulting way. +They may have been intending to talk about reform of the Labour Party constitution, but what ordinary trade unionists heard was senior members of the Party talking as if they were ashamed of the trade union connection. +That was what came through and that's what we all deplore. +People are gonna have to work very hard to repair that damage. +Secondly, and a slightly personal comment, one front- bencher was asked, er, about my comments in opposition to O M O V and in favour of trade union participation and he said John Edmunds is expressing his views, they are not the views of G M B members. +Well, are you listening Gordon, now you know. +So colleagues, support the report, support composite twenty nine, support the motion, because never forget, it's our Party too. +Thank you colleagues. +Colleagues, we'll take the vote now. +All the in favour of the C E C statement would you please indicate? +Against? +That's carried. +All those in favour of composite twenty nine? +Against? +That's carried. +All those in favour of motion three nine six? +Against? +That's carried. +Thanks very much indeed colleagues, and can I congratulate Congress for that particular debate. +There is no other organization within the movement that could provide such a level of debate on this particular matter. +Thank you very much and congratulations colleagues. +We now turn to four motions in respect of the Labour Party motion three nine four, three nine nine, motion four O two and motion four O three. +So n can I now call motion three nine four, representation at Labour and T U C conferences, G M B Scotland to move. +Would the other speakers please come down to the front. +President, Comrades, er Ian , G M B Scotland, moving motion three nine four. +Er, President I'm going to say the time factor and I'll try to be as brief as possible. +When apologize +Colleague, just one second, I do apologize for, for cutting in, but colleagues if you're, if it's your intention to leave Congress for a few moments please do it as quietly as possible. +Colleague. +Er, thanks President. +Er, let me apologize if the motion appears a little vague. +What is being asked is this. +When elected delegate for region to the T, T U C in the Labour Party conferences is not enough. +The representation at Labour and T U C conferences does not reflect a lay representative organization which we are supposed to be. +I was a constituency delegate till last year's Labour Party conference and I was absolutely astonished to see so many people from Head Office floating around the conference floor. +National Officers, National Secretaries, Research Officers, other personnel from Head Office were a large part of the delegation not always around when important votes were being taken. +President, having bums in seats has never been more important, well attended conferences. +To ensure a wider democratic representation at conferences urge the C E C to look seriously at the situation and report back next year. +I move. +Motion three nine four seconded. +Is it seconded, formally seconded? +Thanks very much. +Motion three nine nine. +Labour Local Authorities, London Region to move. +John , London Region, moving motion three nine nine, Labour Local Authorities. +The debate we've just had on Labour Party links raises questions, er, we believe about our attitude, our attitude, the union's attitude to the Party, the Labour Party when it does hold power, which of course it does, er locally in some areas of this country. +This motion is about Labour Party accountability to our own union members and not about our accountability to a handful of M Ps, so whatever the result of the er particular, er Labour Party links debate we've just had, it's still important to consider the practical er effects of the link we have with the Labour Party locally. +I'm happy to see that the attitude of the C E C and of the General Secretary has changed radically, I would say, since last year, when it and they opposed the Liverpool motion, which also called for accountability of Labour councillors and M Ps. +And it's now, the C E C is now, and the General Secretary is now, rightly so, calling loudly for proper accountability from all levels, er of the Party organization. +Whether we get it or not's another matter. +This motion seeks at least to, to obtain some of that accountability. +Liverpool City Council last year sacked hundreds of G M B members. +Industrial tribunals as we heard yesterday from Ian have decided they were wrongly dismissed and that indicates the standard of the union locally but poses the question of why it was impossible for our officials, from the General Secretary downwards, to effect any influence whatsoever on the attitude of Liverpool City Council. +The same question, that lack of influence on Labour authorities who are behaving like the worst Tory employers, has to be posed in relation to a number of situations throughout the country. +For example, and the General Secretary was giving examples yesterday so I'm entitled to do one as well , for example , Islington Council, where a direct Labour organization that had successfully survived and grown through the worst of the Thatcher years and the worst of the Thatcher attack on public services has now fallen victim to a combination of a weak and corrupt Labour Council and an incompetent senior management. +Hundreds of workers have been sacked, the convener and deputy convener victimized, while millions of pounds went out to private contractors. +Now, there's nothing new for people who work for Labour Authorities and Local Authorities in general in that story, new at all. +What's different about it is that we possess, the G M B London Region, possess sworn statements from managers and ex Chief Officers that conclusively demonstrate that what the trade union has been saying all along, what the G M B's been saying all along, about victimization, financial mismanagement and corruption, have in ta in fact taken place. +That's what those sworn statements say. +Even with this kind of evidence, even with that kind of evidence, almost uniquely good evidence in my experience, the Council leadership, which is in, has been in possession of it for the best part of a month has made no move to suspend any Chief Officer on charges of gross misconduct, which of course if it had been any of our members accused of something like that, they'd have been down the road instantly, nor has it reinstated any worker wrongly sacked. +So, it'll be another Liverpool. +Industrial Tribunals may make that decision but the Islington Council certainly isn't going to. +Furthermore Jack , Larry , Terry , the Secretary of the Greater London Labour Party, have also been in possession of this evidence, and before and after receiving that evidence have apparently completely failed over a period of eight months to get Islington Labour Council to behave in a responsible fashion, just like Liverpool, and I'm sure, just like a number of other Labour Councils. +The question for us, whatever the situation about Labour Party links, is how long we can continue to argue for our members to support the Labour Party locally and nationally, to pay the political levy to a Party that treats this union and treats union members with utter and absolute contempt. +Whatever the form of the link that is chosen at Labour Party Conference, that ought to be top of our agenda. +What is the Party gonna do for us, not what are we gonna do for the Party. +I move. +Seconder for three nine nine? +Thanks very much. +Call the mover of motion four O two. +Labour Party Subscription Contributions. +Midland Region. +, Midland East Coast Region. +President, Congress. +Labour Party contribution subscriptions. +Congress, as a strong Labour Party supporter and member for many years, and my father before me, I've always believed it to be the working man's Party, created and born from the sweat and blood of our predecessors, and throughout many years supported and financed by the unions with our subscriptions and the political levy and I see it's supported by the trade unions. +That does not mean that the Labour Party are run or ruled by the trade unions. +We do have and will maintain the links and influence within the Labour Party, or it would not even survive without us. +Us meaning we, meaning our members, who voted to pay the political levy. +Us meaning we, our members paying the eighteen pound to join the Labour Party. +Us meaning we, our member attending a local Party, C L Ps, Labour groups, etcetera. +Us, our members campaigning to secure councillors, MPs getting elected. +Without any of us there would be no Labour Party. +A party without influence, a party with opposition to even talk about. +We must not let them forget where the Party came from. +To encourage recruitment is not to price out existing members, not to prevent a possible mass membership, and although we encourage our members to join, we encourage family and friends also. +When we're given the price tag, eighteen pounds, that's a different matter. +So this Congress must pursue on our behalf, a serious approach to the Labour Party to reduce the price tag. +How do we encourage membership when you openly deny them the right to vote? +How can you survive without the political levy? +How you can survive without those trade union subscriptions? +The Labour Party is a party of the working class people. +Who are the people who do the campaigning, the leafleting in every election, in every national election? +We the union are the back-up system as been said by previous speakers. +I say to John Smith, Neil Kinnock, Gordon Brown and the rest, the ones who put signature to paper on one member, one vote, remember all the elections in the past, remember Sheffield. +Where does it come from, all the costs of those campaigns? +Whom does it come from? +You want my money, you want my support, you want me to campaign for the future, you want me to recruit, then to get all of this reduce the cost of the subscriptions thus encouraging mass trade union membership. +Do not encourage people to stop paying the political levy, that is damaging itself. +Do not, by taking away their right to vote or participate in their policies and selections, you need the back-up teams of the trade unions in all its elections. +You need the finances of the affiliations and the subscriptions. +To survive, price it right, re-look at the priorities. +You are damaging the Labour Party, you are jeopardizing any opposition to this, this present Government, you're jeopardizing the future survival of the Labour Party. +I have pleasure in moving motion four O two. +John , Midland and East Coast Region. +President, Congress. +Increasing the contribution rate is not the answer to gaining mass membership to the Party. +With party membership on the decline could one of the reasons for this be because of the cost? +I haven't the answer to what an acceptable level of membership fee is but I'm certain an ever increasing rate will never generate a party of mass membership. +The Party is dependent upon its activists, no more so than at elections. +Can we afford for the activists to be priced out of the Party? +We all are aware that funds have to be generated but it, it causes a lot of membership. +That other means of raising revenue will have to be looked for, I second. +Motion four O three, Midland to move. +John , Midland and East Coast Region. +President, Congress. +Does the Labour Party recognize its members of longstanding? +The answer is no. +There is no automatic award given to its . +A comrade in my local Labour Party branch joined the Party more than sixty two years ago. +We wanted to give him a gift to mark his membership. +It was agreed that the Secretary of the Party would ask the Party to inform us of any awards, plaques etcetera, that could be presented to recognize his length of membership. +Now it's started to get confused. +A letter that relating to awards was received from the Party. +It stated, there is no reason why your long serving member should not be nominated for a merit award. +Unfortunately, we do not have any reason merit awards as such. +With a reply like that it would have been a waste of time and effort to pursue the issue. +We had to change direction. +John Prescott, MP for Hull East was approached. +John did the business for us. +At a ceremony he presented a signed certificate recognizing the contribution and support to the Party the member had given. +I don't believe that anyone joins the Party thinking that one day they will receive some token or award. +Most of us would be happy with a membership card. +I move. +Ken , Midland and East Coast Region. +President, Congress. +Seconding motion four O three. +Congress, this simply calls for the Labour Party, like the G M B and its experience yesterday in awarding like the gold badge to show and acknowledge long serving members with award of some sort of recognition. +You can imagine the response a member would feel, actually receiving such a gesture. +Ask Peggy, Peggy , ask Eric , we saw it, we heard it. +How they felt yesterday receiving the gold, the gold badge. +The length of service is on record at Walworth Road and it would not be of a great cost if you look at retaining membership who are real stalwarts of the Party. +I don't like it when people take monies from people and forget or pretend that we are the faceless people. +Just a thank you or the bill for next year's contribution. +Many of us put hours of our spare time attending Labour Party meetings, AGMs City Party, Labour Groups and many more fringe meetings, all outside our normal days of work. +Those of us who are fortunate to be in work. +So, in recognition of loyal service and commitment an award would not come amiss. +I second motion. +Thank you. +Colleagues, the C E C are recommending acceptance and er, certainly in respect of several and reference on one motion and I call Robert to put their view. +Thanks President. +Robert , G M B Scotland, speaking on behalf of the C, C E C replying to motions three nine four, three nine nine and four O two and four O three. +On three nine four er, the C E C is seeking reference back er, three nine four deals with G M B delegations to Labour Party and T U C. +As the speaker indicated er, the C E C will not declare exactly what the intentions of the motions were but it's now, er now it's clear from the remarks of the speaker. +The motion seeks to limit the number of full-time officials, in favour of the members. +The proportion of full-time officials er, is already ro already low, for example, at last year's Labour Party Conference, of seventy four delegates, sixty three were either C E C delegates or lay members elected from the Regions. +The remaining er, eleven erm, on the delegation were made up of General Secretary, Deputy General Secretary, elected national officers and a few senior staff. +These people were needed to give advice on policy and industrial matters. +The C E C has no difficulty with the principle to restrict numbers of full-time officials er, that are required, however erm, I think we also want to take into account er, the developments that are referred to in the motion with respect of the Labour Party and if these developments take place we will obviously have to examine that before we come to any decision on the matter. +Er, motion three nine nine. +The C E C support with er this qualification. +Er, accountability of local representatives is obviously supported but we should not limit that demand only to G M B er councillors or councillors who have G M B connections. +It is the view of the C E C that all Labour councillors and all Labour Councils should be demanded to consult on reorganization, redundancy and redeployment and improving of services and I know that the national section secretary, +Mick is already compiling a list of G M B councillors which will no doubt help in trying to er, ensure that that particular motion meets its objectives in the coming year. +Motion four O two, the C E C accepts the basic aim of four O two, that is of increasing Labour Party membership. +Er, I would ask delegates to bear in mind that trade union members can already join er, on the youth rates er, obviously an extension of that scheme would be welcome and is welcomed by the C E C. +However, and it is a view of the C E C that although the current level of contributions,contributions is high, it is not the only barrier to mass membership, I don't intend to go into a list of other reasons why some people choose not to join the Labour Party but I'm quite sure that many delegates here can give some examples at a local level. +Also some political levy paying members may not join as individuals, although they remain ardent supporters of Labour and come out and work and vote for Labour at both national and local elections. +It's already been said this morning they are entitled to a voice and therefore we need to retain er, a separate trade union membership. +On motion four O three the C E C supports, obviously supports awards for long serving Labour Party members. +These already exist as, as obviously the speakers to the motion is, are aware, they already exist at a national level, erm if we support this motion obviously what we're talking about here is introducing er awards at local or regional level. +To summarize er delegates the C E C therefore is asking referral on motion three nine four, support with qua with the qualifications already mentioned for motions three nine nine, four O two and four O three. +Thank you very much. +Thanks very much Robert. +Colleagues, motion three nine four, reference is being sought with the G M B Scotland agree, thanks very much. +Conference agree, thanks very much. +Motion three nine nine is being accepted, all those in favour? +Against? +That's carried. +Motion four O two, we're asking for your support, all those in favour? +Against? +That's carried. +Mo motion four O three being recommended to accept, all those in favour? +Against? +That's carried. +Colleagues, it's about by my watch, which is probably wrong anyway, but however it's the one we're working to, about twenty six minutes past twelve. +Now, what I'd like to do, I mean it's only sun shining out there so you'd only be wasting your time anyway, I'd like to consult you about moving on and getting in the next four motions on union organization. +I think with your assistance we could probably get through it in about fifteen, twenty minutes. +It would help us, er in terms of the end of the week. +Would you agree to that? +Thanks very much indeed colleagues. +So, there's motions one seven five, one seven six, one seven seven and one seven eight in this particular section. +Frank will be asked to respond on behalf of the C E C because there are various different stances the C E C are taking on these particular motions. +So, I now call motion one seven five, Southern Region to move, again colleagues, it would be helpful if movers and seconders would come down to the, the front. +Pauline , Securicor Apex five, Southern Region. +Members, the retention of membership is a very thorny problem. +When you're recruiting it's a bit like courting. +When you first have eye to eye contact everything is new, splendid, you want to do the very best for each other, you want to look your best, you want to tell them all the good things and eventually you get married. +And once you're married a little bit of complacency settles in and your membership is not quite so well served, but what you've got to remember is that whilst you're busy losing interest, somebody else is always interested in your partner or your member, so when, I'll rephrase that I'll rephrase that. +Your party, your other, never mind, and when that happens you get poaching and I've always said, if you treat your membership properly they'll stay with you, but you've also got to remember that the union is in dire financial straits, or so it tells us. +But if you pare your officers to the bone, if you cut them any longer, you will not get a decent service from them, you will just have people in boxes with lids firmly placed on them and then where will the union be? +If you don't give a man or a woman time to do a single job properly, then it's not worth doing. +It's no use doing a little bit of this and a little bit of that and getting absolutely nowhere, because you'll get the two finger job. +Go away, we'll go somewhere else where we can be looked after properly. +So all the while you're retaining members, it's great, don't get complacent. +John, don't screw your officers down into a box, because you're stretching them further and further. +I know you've got financial problems, who hasn't, just remember, you've got to speculate to accumulate. +I move. +Ann , Southern Region, seconding motion one seven five. +President, Congress. +The retention of members should be high on our priority list. +It is obviously important to get people to join the G M B and it's just as important to keep them as members once they have joined. +In the Southern Region we have introduced a retention system which is producing positive results as you will see in our regional report. +With the way jobs are going it's harder to keep members as they move from job to job. +Our members need to know that the services and benefits that the union provide are available to them regardless of where they work. +The members are the lifeblood of this union and we cannot afford to lose any more. +By making our benefits and services as attractive as possible it will encourage our members to stay with the G M B regardless of where they work. +Also we could recruit new members in other workplaces who will be aware of what the G M B provides. +Colleagues, we must not forget the low paid and the part-time workers, the majority of whom are women. +To these people, we not only have to offer an attractive package but to be more visible, especially during these troubled times. +President, Congress, once again working people face another political attack. +It is more important than ever to develop methods and policies to retain members. +Congress, I urge you to support this motion. +Ken , Midlands and East Coast Region, moving motion one seven six, Branch Administration Officers. +Conference, we are all well aware of the terrific financial burden that this union has been under over the last few years. +With that burden around us we have seen a reduction in the number of full-time officers being appointed by the union and which in turn has without any doubt had a detrimental effect upon the members who we serve. +It is for that very reason that I am moving this motion today as it gives us the opportunity to implement the rules of the union and at the same time would enable us to put into position, people who would be able to do all those things that are necessary to achieve what we require, recruitment, organization, paperwork, back-up service to full-time officials. +That back-up service would also allow our full-time officers to concentrate on the recruitment and servicing of our members, which must and must only be and remain our highest priority. +As time goes on, our membership and our finances will decide when we can take on full-time officials. +This motion also creates an opportunity for the union, our union, the members' union, to encourage young members,members and branch activists to take on the role of branch administration officers within the regions we represent here today and gain experience in an area of trade union work that they thought might never have, have existed. +Conference, I believe that this existing rule nineteen, gives the G M B an opportunity to expand into branch administration officers across all the regions and use them to do any job that is needed and expected by the members. +Conference, I believe that we can succeed if you are prepared to support this motion and I will leave you with this point. +The only way forward for this great union is for all of us to recruit new members, so all of us must take this responsibility seriously. +Branch administration officers are as I, I've already said, we'll be able to recruit and support full-time officials. +Conference, I want to help that, and solve that position. +I hope we all want to help together as a team and support our already stretched full-time officials. +Rule nineteen gives us that opportunity. +So congress, please don't let's waste the opportunity before us today. +I therefore ask for your support. +Thank you, I move. +Linda , Midland and East Coast Region, seconding motion one seven six, Branch Administration Officers. +President, Congress. +The mover has covered the motion extensively, but I'd like to add a couple of more points. +We are not plucking this position out of the air, it's already there. +In these difficult times it makes sense to look again at this post. +It's self financing. +We could promote computer training for the D A Os enabling a move to computer as branch records, making branch administration efficient and streamlined. +Very importantly, just maybe, these prospective, highly motivated, branch admin officers would inject new life into non-active branches and from a personal point of view, I would see this as an opportunity to gain experience, which would encourage them to apply for regional organizer's jobs when they come available and don't we need more women officers? +Please support. +Motion one seven seven, London. +President. +President, Congress. +Keith , London Region, moving motion one seven seven. +Congress, I understand the C E C are accepting this resolution for the qualifications so I will be brief. +Past practice will to use such private , although they should have now, by now, all but disappeared. +If we are to retain a level of even-handedness when dealing with employers ourselves we should at least make sure our own house is in order. +If jobs or vacancies exist, our people, G M B people, should fill those vacancies. +We have enough unemployed activists, who with a little training could cover those vacancies. +Congress, I move. +Would the seconder for one seven seven, formally seconded, thank you very much. +One seven eight, Liverpool Region to move. +Formally moved, is it formally seconded? +Is it formally carried? +Oh, we can't, we referred in it. +Oh sorry about that Frank. +I do everything possible to help Regional Secretaries. +Thank you President. +Frank replying on behalf of the C E C to one seven five, one seven six, one seven seven and one seven eight. +Congress, the C E C is asking you to support one seven five. +We seek withdrawal of motion one seven six in favour of one seven eight, we ask you to accept motion one seven seven where the certain qualifications and we seek referral of motion one seven eight. +Colleagues, motion one seven five is in line with the union's general approach therefore the C E C has accepted this motion. +The C E C seeks withdrawal of one seven six. +In nineteen eighty four the C E C and this Congress favoured moving away from full-time officers to labour and secretaries and indeed we have implemented that policy. +Even you, at later conferences, have protected those people when we have adjusted branch commission and we feel it would be a retrograde step to try and go back and turn those years away. +Bearing those points in mind one seven eight offers a better way forward to use the skills and experience of our lay officials and members. +Motion one seven seven, of course we accept in principle, that where we have vacancies, permanent vacancies, we should employ direct staff and if possible our members, which we do try to do. +However, we do have some occasional vacancies, maternity leave, building maintenance work, long term sick, where we have to make sure our labour force is protected, where we do involve temporary labour and even on those occasions we attempt to employ people direct as some regions know. +So, on that basis, we then accept that motion with those reservations. +The contents of motion one seven eight appear to be sound, conference, we have been tried and we have been tried by some regions in a very limited way with some success. +However, the C, C E C feels it needs to consult with regions, it needs more closely to examine the point in question and we would ask for reference of that resolution. +I move. +Thanks Frank. +Thank you, President. +Er, Congress. +I hear what the C E C are saying and yes, I'm concerned about the union's finances. +But the rulebook provision identifies branch administration officers, which I called for in the motion. +Why do we continue to identify positions in our union rules if we're not gonna use them, and another point, is the, if rule nineteen was part of an employer's agreement, we would be first to challenge that agreement and ask why it was not implemented. +I've been trained on union education courses, the same as you people have out there today, this union spends a tremin tremendous amount of money on training shop stewards to challenge such agreements. +So Congress, I wish to challenge it. +Thank you. +Okay Ken, thank you. +Colleagues, motion one seven five is being accepted, I put it to the vote, all those in favour? +Against? +That's carried. +And you've heard from Ken in respect of one seven six, he's not prepared to withdraw, so therefore the C E C are recommending opposition. +All those in favour of the motion? +Against? +That's lost. +Motion one seven seven is being accepted, all those in favour? +Against? +That's carried. +Motion one seven eight, reference is being sought and I understand that Liverpool have agreed. +Conference agree, thanks very much indeed. +Colleagues, just before we adjourn for lunch, could I ask you to try and take the opportunity to visit the Labour Party and Trade Unions for Labour stand where there is a live link to the national membership system. +Thanks very much indeed. +Congress stands adjourned until two P M, thank you. + +The question that most of today's youngsters seem to ask is What was life like in Orkney when you were my age? +Well looking back on it now it seems almost a life time away but it's amazing just how well you can remember those far off days. +I don't think that I shall every forget the day when sugar came off the ration and at last we could make toffee. +Prior to that the only way that you could get sweets was if you had the necessary ration coupons. +And to this day I shall never be able to understand why so many of my generation, by the time they were in their teens, had a mouthful of dentures because it was not due to eating sweets. +And despite the wartime rationing the general health of the country by the end of World War two had never been better. +However the one dark shadow on our lives in those days was the alarming growth of the number of people with tuberculosis which affected the lungs. +The hospitals were crammed full of the flower of Orkney's youth and many coughed and spluttered their way to an early death. +However, the arrival on the scene of wonder drugs developed in Britain and America at long last conquered this disease which for decades had struck down young and old. +One of the main carriers of the disease was found to be in milk and that's why today tuberculin tested dairy provide us with our daily pinta. +By the nineteen fifties Kirkwall had a new power station at the P D C and already the distribution lines were radiating out from Kirkwall to bring mains electricity to the outlying areas of the mainland. +But for many parts of Orkney this new service would be years away in reaching them and so the familiar thump thump thump of that diesel statomatic generator filled the air. +Hundreds of these lighting plants were bought to light homes and farmsteadings in the mainland and in the islands. +Agriculture was beginning to change dramatically as well and after two hurricanes which almost wiped out the flourishing egg industry many farms built more substantial hen houses out of concrete blocks and the poultry were kept inside all the time in what was known as deep litter houses. +It was also discovered that egg production could be boosted by leaving lights on in the houses all night to fool the hens into thinking that it was still daylight. +The biggest breakthrough in the farm came with the arrival on the scene of a small grey tractor called a Fergie and it seemed as though almost everybody had at least one and it became the jack of all trades on the farm and implements which had previously been pulled by horses had their shafts removed and couplings were made to fit them behind the tractor. +And when it wasn't working on the farm a transport on the back and a bag of straw to sit on and it became the family's personal transport. +A new motor car was for many a luxury that would have to wait for another day. +Because already there was great interest in a new method of growing food for the farm cattle. +It eliminated the need to grow acres of turnips or grain to feed the animals during the long winter months. +Apparently this new method had been tried out down south and it seemed ideal for the temperamental Orkney climate because you harvested when it was green and then you put it in a pit and packed it with a tractor and then you left it until it turned black and rotted and then you cut it up in chunks and fed it to the cattle. +It was called silage and to the careful Orkney farmer it seemed all too good to be true. +However a few were experimenting with this newest innovation and looking around the Orkney countryside today well there's hardly a farm that doesn't have a covered silage pit or a grain silo and today the fields are full of barley and oilseed rape and a field of turnips is something of a rare sight these days. +The only horrible memory of the nineteen fifties that even today makes me wince was that teaspoonful of cod liver oil followed by the concentrated orange juice that was spooned on us before leaving for the school in the morning and off you went with your flask of tea and your sandwiches in your school bag. +School meals were only to begin some four years later. +At break time we would all troop down to the village shop for a bottle of Garden's lemonade of a bag of what was all the rage in those days, potato crisps. +None of your exotic flavours in those days and the salt I remember came in a small piece of blue paper in the bag. +By the mid-nineteen fifties many Orcadians had begun the task of modernizing their homes by building new ones a process which over the past three decades seems to have gone on with ever increasing frenzy. +In those days a new house was usually constructed out of wooden hut sections of which there was a plentiful supply as most of the troops stationed here in the war lived in wooden prefabricated buildings and when they left Orkney the buildings were dismantled and then sold. +And even today hut sections can still be bought and despite the fact that they're forty years old the quality of the wood in them is often better than what you can buy today. +Once the new house had been built is was often blocked in with a single course of concrete blocks and curiously enough today thirty five years later the modern method of building houses is to construct them all of wood and then surround them with a single course of concrete blocks. +So were we in fact years ahead of our time in house building I wonder. +By the end of the nineteen fifties life in Orkney had come full circle and like everyone else we had acquired a taste for the material things in life. +And then on the twenty second of December nineteen fifty eight twentieth century technology arrived with the opening of the B B C television transmitter at Nether Burton in Ham and this electronic window in the world was to influence and change our lives beyond our wildest dreams. +It's quite a while now since I've bored you with a few observations about our friends the dumb animals who share their lives with us on the planet and the more you observe them the more convinced you become that they're anything but dumb. +I recently had an interesting encounter with the honeybee and it only served to point out that regardless of size the degree of intelligence is quite extraordinary. +One bright sunny morning recently I set about painting the front of the house with its yearly coat of white paint to smarten it up. +And I decided to paint one part of the wall which had not been painted before. +Unknown to me a honeybee had made a hive in this part of the wall and not long afterwards I became aware of an angry bee searching frantically for the entrance to its hive. +The sudden change of colour on the wall had upset its sense of direction and it buzzed about angrily and eventually it came into the porch where I was sitting and it stayed there for a few minutes and then went outside searching the wall again for the entrance. +And after failing to find it once again it came into the porch and complained loudly and so I went outside and with a paint brush I marked the entrance to the hive with three blobs of paint of a different colour and then with a piece of cardboard I guided the tiny winged creature towards the marks on the wall and it went inside. +A few minutes later it emerged and flew off and then when it returned it looked at the wall and saw the marks and went inside. +Ample proof indeed that it had recognized them and it realized that it was the entrance to its home. +Another day I observed the antics of a sea bird who had found a small crab in one of those rock pools on the beach below the house. +And after several attempts to break the shell open by picking it up and dropping it onto the rocks, well that didn't work, so the bird picked it up and then from a about a height of twenty feet it dropped it onto the rocks below. +Well it must have been a tough old crab because this didn't work either. +And eventually in exasperation the bird flew a short way down the beach and picked up a small stone in its beak and then it returned and it bashed the shell repeatedly until it cracked it open and it was able to get at the contents inside. +So you see human beings are not the only animals capable of using tools to get at their food. +Now sheep are animals that we tend to regard as being pretty stupid and most of the time they're timid creatures who will run away at the slightest sound or sight of something strange in their midst. +But at lambing time they take on a total change of character and they can sometimes become very aggressive. +A mother ewe with two lambs in the field behind the house one morning demonstrated her strong maternal instincts when she successful saw off a two year old steer with a series of savage head butts. +Eventually this great shambling hulk of a beast turned tailed and fled. +Human beings it seems are not the only animals who go in for worshipping idols. +The farm cattle have their gods too and anyone who leaves a car or a tractor and trailer parked in a field of cattle can observe that when such a vehicle appears it produces the most unusual reactions amongst the herd. +And that old theory that animals can't see colours is just not true because any vehicle which is black or red in colour appears to get more attention that any other. +At first it will be surrounded and sniffed and if it appears friendly then a good licking follows and if this is accepted by the stranger then it's usually used for a good old scratch. +And that's why you can expect to find the car in the morning with the windows all covered in saliva and the wing mirrors all bent and the chrome strips on the doors are often with tufts of cow hair. +And if the stranger has pleased the local cattle they will show their gratitude by plastering the sides of the vehicle with a generous dolloping of fresh dung before they depart. +A field of cattle are normally quiet docile creatures and most of the time it's fairly safe to walk through their midst and they will observe your passing with that quiet curiosity. +However the one thing that you must never do is to go between a cow and her calf and I made this mistake one morning and I had to take to my heals and run. +And this started a stampede amongst the rest of the herd and as I advanced down the field with them all in close pursuit I somehow managed to clear a four stranded barbed wire fence like an Olympic champion. +So be warned. +Like human families the animal and the bird life have a order of seniority or what they call the pecking order and usually the more dominant member of the clan is the oldest. +And at Mucklehouse we have Brigadier Sydney the gander and everybody else is kept firmly in place. +But like most families while father appears to be the boss more often than not it's mother who usually has the last word. +This morning I observed all of them returning home in single file after their dawn patrol around the valley and as usual mother was leading the way with father in the middle keeping the unruly youngsters in hand. +When they reached their favourite bathing spot in the burn below the house they began the slow decent of the steep bank. +However one of the youngsters at the back in his enthusiasm to reach the water tripped and fell over the one in front and this started a chain reaction in the column and the entire orderly procession landed at the bottom in a tangle of webbed feet and flapping wings. +This undignified arrival at the bathing spot started off the most dreadful family squabble and several minutes were to elapse before order was restored. +The more you observe the bird and the animal life you begin to realize that they're not so dump after all and if anything they begin to look and behave more like human beings every day. + +Come in, hello. +Hello. +Well what can I do for this lady today? +No, it's just me this time. +Yourself? +It's just my womb Doctor. +actually going into now on, in July. +Oh they've got you organized. +Aha. +Right. +But not to do with my back. +What what this, what they gonna do to you ? +To get a, to get a laparoscopy and a D and C. +Oh right,right . +Who is this? +It'll be Dr . +Dr , Dr . +Aha. +There you are Jean, that'll keep you right . +Keep you out of mischief for a wee while again. +Anyway, right thanks now . +Right, okay,che cheerio now. + +So direct proportionality. +And inverse. +Not too too much trouble with that. +Okay if erm so one of the questions that comes up a lot is speed and distance and time. +And that's a good example of both types there. +So let's say we keep the erm You've got to get from here to Birmingham. +If you go faster, erm what happens to the time it takes? +Less time. +Right. +So if I go twice as fast, does that mean it's gonna take me twice as long to get there? +No. +No. +So it's inversely proportional . +Yeah. +If I go twice as fast, it'll take me one over two, so that's a half as long. +Okay right. +If I go ten times as fast, I get there in one tenth of the time. +And that's all it is. +That's all the inverse proportionality. +Direct proportionality, if I'm driving at a steady sixty miles an hour, how far would I go in erm one hour? +Sixty miles. +How far would I go in ten hours, if I'm going at a steady sixty miles an hour? +How far would I go? +Doing sixty miles every hour, and I keep going for ten hours. +So +Six hundred, +So so I do six hundred miles. +Erm If I've got sixty miles to do, and I do it at erm do it at sixty miles an hour, it takes me one hour. +If I do it at half the speed, just do it at thirty miles an hour, how long will that take? +Two hours. +If I do it at half the speed. +Trying to cover a a distance. +Trying to cover sixty miles, okay, Trying to cover sixty miles so I do it again at sixty miles an hour. +Takes one hour. +Now if I do it at half that speed, if I do if I drive at thirty miles an hour, how long will it take me to do the sixty miles? +Two hours. +Right. +Two hours. +So this is the speed and distance and time thing gets very confusing, because some of it is direct proportional, right so the faster you go, the more distance you could travel in a fixed in an hour say. +Obviously sixty miles an hours means if you keep going for an hour, you do sixty miles. +Thirty miles an hour, keep going for an hour you'll only do thirty. +So how far you go is directly proportional to how fast. +Yeah. +If you say, How far would you go in an hour, keep the time fixed so we're not changing all three things, cos then it's really confusing. +So keep one of them fixed. +Change another one. +So it's keep the first one fixed, change the second one, and see how the third one changes. +And most of it If you try and do it with sort of the squiggles on the paper. +equations this one go on the top or the bottom of the fraction or what? +But if you just back off bit. +And you think, Well hang on let's just do it a bit of common sense. +And apply it to say driving along at steady speeds, then you can work a lot of it out for yourself. +And erm you'll get should get happier with that. +So let's try a few examples. +Erm for you to do. +When I say let's try, I mean you can try some. +So if we've got let's say sixty miles an hour. +A fixed speed of sixty miles an hour. +And we want to travel a hundred a hundred and twenty miles. +How long will that take? +Two hours. +That will take two hours. +And suppose I go twice as fast. +Right double the speed, if I drive at a hundred and twenty. +Now how long w will it take me. +One hour. +That's only half the time it took me last time. +So that's a half of two, which is one hour. +Okay so here. +Twice the speed. +Erm what would happen if I drive at a tenth of the speed? +One tenth of the speed. +I drive at six miles an hour. +Hey?it's the original time, which was two hours, is times it's times a tenth. +No +No is that right? +What's going on here? +If I drive at a tenth of the speed, is it gonna take me longer or is it gonna take me is it gonna be quicker? +Longer. +It's gonna be longer, so it can't be a tenth of it. +No. +Right, here we went at twice the speed, and it finished up half the time. +Now we're driving a tenth of the speed, so it's going to be one over one tenth. +Which is ten times. +So it would take me twenty hours of I drive at six miles an hour. +Yeah, +Right. +And that ties up When you get it like this a tenth of the speed. +What we've got now is, it's directly proportional, but they've got a fraction in. +So it's making it look like inverse proportion and the first thought is, Oh it l er er oh. +Well it'll take a tenth of the time wouldn't it. +No it takes ten times as much. +half the speed, it'll take you twice as long. +Erm that's thinking of a steady speed. +That's a fixed speed. +I'm just sort of rushing through this a bit, and I'm trying to show where the where most people get it wrong. +Erm and so you can watch out for those the traps. +Now if it's a fixed distance, fixed distance, let's say we're going to go, a hundred and twenty miles. +Right, and we're not gonna change the distance now, we're keeping that fixed. +If we drive at sixty miles an hour. +Erm we've done the time there. +Right. +Er Right. +What are we do Hang on, let's just check what we're doing with this. +Fix First one we did was fixed speed, sixty miles an hour, we go double the speed, so what happens to the time? +Er that should have been a fixed a fixed distance there . +Fixed distance. +A fixed distance er sixty miles say. +Er say a fixed distance of a hundred and twenty miles. +That's more like it. +Okay. +And it we drive it at sixty miles an hour, for two hours. +Now if we keep the distance er let's see that was the fixed distance. +If we keep the speed fixed now we have Do the one I should have done first. +Fixed speed of sixty miles an hour. +Okay. +And we'll try How long would we go in how far in one hour? +Sixty miles. +Right. +Okay. +How far in erm three and a half hours? +A hundred and fifty miles an +That was very good. +That was brilliant yeah. +Yeah exactly. +How did you work that out? +Well it's double that hang on +it's close. +Mm. +How far would we go in three hours? +At a steady sixty miles an hour. +How far would we go ? +A hundred and eighty. +Right. +So we'll go a hundred and eighty in the first three hours. +And how long would we go in the last half hour? +Thirty. +And we'd do another thirty miles. +Yeah. +Okay. +So two hundred and +Two hundred and ten. +Two hundred and ten miles we do. +Now you can do that straight off. +Instead of doing it a bit at a time, we can just multiply it. +And say three and a half times sixty. +Just do it that way which is what you'd normally do, on your calculator, you'd just do sixty times three point five. +Now that's that's a very quick look. +Erm don't worry if you don't understand it all. +Now hove you got the problem that you had? +Yeah I've got it here. +Well look through that and I wa what I want now is if you, can try and work your way through it. +Without Okay. +Go on. +You haven't seen it yet. +Well er if it's a messy one, the first thing to do with it, is to split it up into little bits. +I noticed . +This one. +A and B are okay. +I can get that. +Ah. +It's C and D. +Right. +Six swallows ate three hundred flies in five hours. +Complete the following. +Six swallows eat sixty flies in how many hours? +Right. +And how many swallows would eat six thousand flies in five hours? +Right erm Okay talk about it. +You said A and B were okay. +How did you do A? +Yeah. +Well you had six eating three hundred, so yo I divided three hundred by six. +And timesed it by thirty. +And that gave me how many flies were gonna be eaten. +Okay and why why did you divide it that way round? +Cos the number of flies into swallows. +Okay. +So this is a bit like the speed and the distance and the time and things isn't it. +All combined . +Yeah. +Erm so we need really equations for all of these. +Cos they're like if you like. +So let's have a look at it could you could you find out from the the question here, six swallows ate three hundred flies in five hours. +Can you find out how many flies, one swallow would eat in one hour? +Or could you find out how many flies one swallow would eat in five hours? +Yeah. +Yeah? +How would you do that? +So we've got six swallows eat three hundred flies in five hours. +Okay. +How many would one eat in five hours? +Okay? +Fifty. +Right. +So one swallow would eat fifty in five hours. +How much would one swallow eat in one hour then? +Ten. +Okay so you you you've got it now, that one swallow eats one fly erm sorry eats ten flies +Ten flies in one hour. +In an hour. +I'll write that down. +Okay so write that and then we'll check it. +Right. +Now let's check it. +Let's see if it gets back to what they said there. +Six swallows erm would they How many would six swallows eat in one hour? +Sixty. +Okay. +So we that'll just we multiply that by six. +or how much six swallows would eat. +And you get sixty. +Right and how much would they so if they if these six swallows are eating sixty +Three hundred. +in one hour. +Erm. +That's it. +Er in five hours. +Right so if we're looking at what what are they they asking for here? +How long will they take and how many swallows, and on this one how many flies. +Right. +So which which ones are proportional to what? +If you've got more swallows, do more flies get eaten? +Yeah. +And if you've got more time, for them to eat, do more flies get eaten? +Yeah. +So they're both directly proportional. +Okay. +Now just talk about C. +Now that you've worked out how many one swallow eats in one hour. +Swallows. +Er +How many would they eat in How many would six swallows east in one hour? +Sixty. +Okay. +It says here six swallows eat sixty flies in +Six hours. +how many hours? +Six hours. +Well we've got here, we've got one swallow eats ten flies in one hour. +Okay. +We have six times as many swallows, if we have six swallows. +Just write down how many six swallows will eat in one hour. +So just write it as six times ten or ten times six. +Okay. +Are you happy with that? +Yeah. +One of them will eat ten flies every hour, so if we got six of them it'll be ten times six. +In one hour. +And that comes to sixty, and the question here is six swallows eat sixty flies in how many hours? +So what's the answer to that one? +One hour. +Just one hour. +Okay. +So you've done C. +Yeah. +Now D. +How many swallows would eat six thousand flies in five hours? +Well six of them eat three hundred right. +If they going to get through six thousand, are you going to need more swallows or less swallows? +More swallows. +Okay. +So have a guess at what you multiply or divide by there. +Just to, not sort of working out just what what you see it it probably is. +Six thousand divide by three hundred. +That's it. +Six thousand divided by three hundred. +Erm and what about the six, that's where that comes in and starts confusing things isn't it? +Yeah. +So if you just did, six thousand divided by three hundred. +It wouldn't tell you how many swallows, it would tell you how many lots of six swallows would east that. +Then you multiply it by six. +Then you have to you've got what your your answer Let let's say, we keep our swallows in cages. +Right six swallows in each cage. +And we sort of go and feed them three hundred flies, every five hours. +And then somebody comes along and says, Oh we've got a some big order on, we're got to feed them six thousand flies, in five hours. +So you first thing you says, Well how many cages are there then? +One cage one cage of swallows get through three hundred in five hours, so six thousand divided by three hundred. +That would be the number of cages of +Cages. +swallows. +That +Yeah. +you'd need to get through the six thousand flies. +And then you say, Now how many how many swallows in a cage? +And you said multiply by didn't you. +Yeah. +Sorry that's right. +Yeah, multiply by. +So six thousand Yeah it's alright problem. +Six thousand by divided by +Three. +three hundred, tells you how many cages you need. +And there's six swallows in every cage, so when you get that answer, you just multiply it by six. +So you want to work that one out? +What that'll come to? +And er just sort of work it out on here cos a lot'll cancel. +We'll start from, six swallows eat three hundred. +Yeah. +Are you are you are you happy with this, or am I confusing you. +I think I'm confusing +Yeah. +you actually. +No I get I get the idea there. +Yeah. +Six thousand divide by that. +Yeah I get that. +Mm. +That. +I don't know what you mean by cancelling down though. +Ah. +You know I I I've cancelled down before but you know in this like. +In +Right. +down like this. +Never cancelled d I've cancelled down like equations and things . +Right If you're cancelling down . +You were doing erm six thousand divided by three hundred, that tells you how many cages and there's six swallows in every cage, times six. +Okay. +Now this was flies that the old ones ate flies the new ones ate. +There's going to be eating more flies, so you need more swallows, so that looks the right way up. +And we weren't thinking about how many one ate, we were thinking about how many six ate. +So it'll take more of them. +So we can cancel that. +Divide three by a hundred. +Sorry divide three hundred by a hundred. +What do we get? +Three. +And divide this by a hundred, what do we get? +Sixty. +Okay and then divide that by three? +One. +And that by three. +Three. +No no. +How many threes in six? +Two. +Okay. +So it just comes to? +A hundred and twenty. +A hundred and twenty. +Erm don't bother about that about the cancelling. +Erm, no. +Do it do it on your calculator, just put the figures in and do it. +But then think about it when you got your answer, if it seems okay. +Er this is this is the one that you get a lot. +About cars doing journeys. +And this is the other big one that you get about erm food. +That's the other one too. +Four men do a job in twelve hours. +How many men would it take to do the job in two hours? +Right. +This sort of thing. +Twelve men build a wall in eight hours. +How long would it take four men to do it? +So let's just talk about that without doing erm a particular example. +Er Twelve men take So they're building a wall or something. +Twelve men take eight hours. +Okay? +Erm how many men would we need if we wanted it built in four hours. +Just to just to guess at it without sort of working it out. +What would you say? +S Twenty four men. +Right. +If you want it done in half the time, you've got to have twice as many people. +Yeah. +Yeah. +Erm that's inverse proportion, that's the hard one, and I think you understand what you're doing. +Yeah. +Very well actually in there. +Erm you'll see a lot of them like this. +Four men. +Try try nine. +Completely on your own then. +Four men do a job in twelve hours. +How many to do the job in two hours? +Forty eight men? +Now how did you work it out? +Well it takes fo four men, twelve hours to do the job. +So in two hours, you've got to have twelve times as many men as you've already got. +Oh. +where do you get your twelve from? +Here. +Let's let's make it a slightly different problem. +Lets' say, erm four men take twelve hours. +Okay. +How many men would you need to do the job in six hours? +Eight men. +Right. +You only spend half the time, you have twice as many men. +How long how many how many men would you need if you want it done in a quarter of the time? +If you wanted it done in three hours? +Twelve men. +Twelve men. +Let's let's forget about the numbers. +Let's say we don't know how many men there's erm just one gang of men. +So we dunno how many men in a gang. +And it takes them twelve hours to do this job. +And the foreman comes up and says, Oh want this job in half the time. +So we need two gangs to do it. +If he comes up and he says, Well we want this job done in a quarter of the time. +Four times. +Four times as many. +He says, We want this job done in a tenth of the time. +Ten times. +Yeah. +Ten times as many. +If he says, Oh well, this isn't a rush job, we want this job to take twice as long as usual. +Shorten the half the +That's it. +Just have half the number of men working on it and then it'll take twice as long. +Okay. +Now in this case, four of them will take twelve hours. +Let's say four men is one gang. +So forget about you know, like think of a cage of swallows. +That's one gang. +So one gang of men take twelve hours. +What we want is only two hours. +So how many gangs are we going to need. +Are we going to need more men or less more gangs or less gangs? +To get it done in +More gangs. +We're going to do more. +Going to need more. +So we want to do this is in a sixth of the time, right? +We want it done two twelfths of the time. +That's how many gangs erm that's two twelfths of the time, so it's one sixth. +This is one sixth of the time. +Now we want this job in one sixth of the time. +That is takes on gang to do. +Six more gangs. +So we'll need six gangs all together. +Okay? +Cos that comes to one sixth. +We need six gangs. +One sixth of the time. +So six gangs. +Okay. +And then you can think of I mean this is this is just sort it can be there to confuse you while you're sorting out the time. +And when you're sorted it out, they want six gangs, so that's six times four. +So we need twenty four men +Twent +on that one. +there's four men in in that gang. +Now going back to it. +So that was four men do it in twelve hours, how many in two. +Erm let's see if . +Oh that's that's nasty that, because they've got six in both of them. +Six women do a job in eight hours. +How many women will it take to do the job in six hours? +Two. +Think about that one. +Are you going to need more, more women or less women? +More women. +Gonna need more. +So which way up is the fraction going to go? +The first thing to do is forget about the six for a minute. +Right It's not six women, it's one gang. +Right one gang take eight hours. +So how many gangs are you going to need, to get this job done in six hours? +Well two gangs are gonna get it done in four hours. +Right two gangs in four hours, so we don't need two whole gangs. +Yeah. +So that'd be too many. +So one gang takes eight hours. +How many gangs would take six hours? +This is where it's the inverse proportion. +It's going to take eight over six. +Right? +Eight over six which comes to? +One and one and a bit gangs. +That seems to that looks sensible it seems to . +So it's eight over six gangs. +And how many in a gang? +Six. +Six. +So the number of women that we'll want, is eight over six, times six. +That'll just cancel that. +And we finish up with eight women. +Well that's interesting, because six women do the job in eight hours, and it would take eight women to do it in six hours. +So if we had something like that page . +Have you ever heard of the term, man hours? +Yeah. +It takes so many man hours. +Erm like to decorate a house well no let's say in in a factory, there's erm they've a rush order, they want to get some stuff out and they're going to need another hundred and twenty man hours. +to get this job done. +Now man hours, is just men times hours. +And if you look at this, I mean this is actually women hours, but if you look at that. +See what happened with this one that we worked out. +Four men do the job in twelve hours. +How many man hours do we need altogether? +How many man hours does this job take? +Four times twelve. +That's it four times twelve. +So number nine, the job takes, four men times twelve hours equals four times twelve man hours. +Okay. +Now if I wanted this job done in six hours, how many men would I need? +Er +Four men take twelve hours. +I want the job done in six hours. +Eight men. +I'd make I'd take eight, be twice as much. +Now if I said, how long would three men take to do it? +It's a bit awkward isn't it. +Yeah. +But one way of looking at it is, Well the job takes forty eight man hours. +Forty eight man hours. +So how long, how many hours would three men have to work, before they'd made up forty eight man hours? +Forty eight divided by three. +Right. +So three men times X if you like, X hours, equals forty eight man hours. +And you can all of these, all of the ones where they say, so many men or women take so long to do a job, how many. +You can do them all, just be looking at that. +You see multiply what they give you. +Right. +The men times the hours. +And that's fixed. +That's how many man hours, that job takes. +And then if they say, Well so three men would take forty eight divided by three hours. +Yeah? +Yeah. +Okay e divided each side by three, X equals forty eight over three. +Erm It takes forty eight man hours. +If I said, I want this job done in two hours. +How would you work it out? +The job takes forty eight man hours, and I want it done in two hours. +So how many men would we need? +Forty eight hours. +Well that's three men. +Yes when when there were three men Right when there were three men, that's how many hours it took. +Now a different problem, erm it still takes forty eight man hours, but this time how many men to do the job in two hours? +Is it going to take more men or less men to get this job done? +More men. +Mm. +So you can work it that way, you can think of that as a check. +But the easy way, as I say, is to just concentrate on the man hours. +This job, whatever it is, it takes forty eight man hours. +So if you multiply the number of men, by the h number of hours they work, it's going to always come to forty eight. +So if you'd like er we don't know how many men. +Let's say it's X. +X times two hours has got to be equal to +Forty man hours. +Right that's got to be And that's X men times fo times two hours equals forty eight man hours. +That's man hours. +Okay. +Divide each side of your equation by two hours. +X men is equal to forty eight man hours. +Over two hours. +Yeah. +Right. +I see that. +The hours go Oh lovely. +Thanks very much . +Do you want that window shut? +I'm fine as long it's not too noisy for you . +Are you sure? +If No I'm thinking of you you know erm +Great fine okay. +if you want to shut it anyway just get up okay . +Thanks. +Yeah. +No I like the fresh air. +Okay so the hours would cancel off there. +How many twos in that? +Twenty four. +So you take twent twenty four men to do the job in two hours . +In two hours. +Now how many man hours would we use up, if we had twenty four men working for two hours? +We'd have twenty four +Forty eight. +That's it. +Twenty four times two, man hours. +So any of th this is a very common problem that you get. +So many men digging a ditch, building a wall, digging a hole, whatever it is. +And you just, they always tell you, so many men take so long to do it. +Well how many man hours. +So try one completely on your own. +I won't say a word this time. +I ant you to do the lot. +And I'll turn that over so you can't see that. +Okay? +Erm and I want you to tell me what you're thinking and how you're going through it and So let's see if I can find one of those. +Er here we are, the first one here. +Fifteen men can build a wall in six hours. +Oh it's too easy this cos you can do it in your head. +Erm right this is better. +Four men can build a shed in nine hours. +Okay? +How long would it take six men? +Keep going. +Alright. +Nine hours. +Erm Four divide by nine, multiplied by six. +Okay. +Now that's that's just sort of coming out with the answer. +I'm not saying whether it's right or wrong, but how did you get to it? +Because, I want to find out how many men it'd take you to do the job in one hour. +It's not that. +Yes. +Yeah. +That's one way of looking at it. +How many men would you take to do the job in one hour sort of thing is you're working out how many man hours th are there in this job. +Okay, you just multiply the number of men, times the number of hours, and that gives you the man hours. +And that doesn't change. +That's always fixed. +You always need so many man hours to do it. +So wh wh how many man hours are there in that job? +Four times nine. +Right. +Four times nine man hours to do the job. +So how many hours So that comes to? +Thirty six. +Yeah. +Thirty six man hours in this job. +Okay. +And how many hours would six men have to work for before they worked thirty six man hours? +If six men worked for one hour, they's work six man hours wouldn't they. +If they worked for if six men worked for two hours they'd work +Six hours. +for Right. +Six hours. +So if mix six men work for six hours, they'll produce thirty six man hours. +Which is what we want. +Okay. +So the way the way of doing it. +The men times the hours gives you the man hours. +And then you divide that. +So same problem now. +Six men take nine hours to do it. +Ah this is no good, I want this job done erm in four hours. +How many men are you going to need? +Thirty six and divide that by four +Yeah. +and that'd give you the number of men. +Right that's it. +And then what will that come to? +Nine men. +Yeah. +The men times the hours when whenever you whenever you get your answer, you can check that your men times the hours must still still be the same as it was when you when they gave you the question. +So if four men take nine hours, nine men will take four hours. +Yeah. +And they sometimes put it that way round. +There was one in erm here where they'd done that. +Erm and they did that with the women. +Six women take eight hours. +How many wonem women would you need to do it in six hours? +Well the women times the hours, it takes six times eight women hours to do this. +Man hours if you like. +It's still gonna take six times eight, but this time the six is the hours so the eight will be women. +And doing it on man hours is er an easy way. +Erm you probably need to practise a bit. +To think of it that way. +So that you're not think, Oh You're first thought cos I know the way you you were working, you're thinking Oh if I just double that, half it or take a third of it or something like that. +And it doesn't always work out. +Sometimes if you get an easy one, fine, you could do it that way. +But erm the easi easiest way of the lot is, Well, how much work does this job take? +It takes either three men working at ten hours. +That gives yo thirty man hours. +Or ten men working for three hours, that still gives you thirty men hours. +Or fifteen men working for two hours, two men working for fifteen hours. +As long as the men time I mean, perhaps it would take sixty men working for half an hour. +As long as it comes to the same man hours, then that's it. +Cos that's how you measure jobs when you in erm When you're sort of managing projects or something or so many man hours to build this and then so many man hours to do this and then so many man hours to do that. +And they always talk about man hours. +Erm Do you want to try another one? +This time, absolutely no no help at all. +I'll just look out the window. +But you t say what you're doing. +Don't just go for the figures. +Come sort of some of the words describe why you're doing what you're doing. +Cos it'll help you to erm say what you're doing, and probably to write it down, some of it as well. +Rather than just go don't forget if you write it down and you've got the right method. +If you get the answer wrong, you can still get some marks. +But if you don't write anything down apart from just the answer. +If you just put the figures in the calculator and write it down and it's wrong or this one times that one . +Erm did we do that one? +Yeah. +We did that one. +Okay. +A farmer employs twelve men So number number seven. +Twelve men will take ten days, how long would five men take? +Twelve men Twelve men times ten days. +A hundred and twenty +Man days. +man days. +That's it +erm How long would it have taken five men? +A hundred and twenty divided by the five men. +That's it. +So a hundred and twenty over five men. +Right. +Will take five days. +Yeah. +Sorry will take +No. +Yeah any +Yeah will take five days. +when you multiply that one by that one, it's got to come to a hundred and twenty man days again. +Yeah. +Cos that never changes the does it. +Erm have a go at this one. +Erm eight men Is this one you've done? +No er well I +Okay try try it this way with the man hours anyway. +Erm or the man days in this case. +Eight men take six days. +how long would twelve Right. +Go on. +Good. +That's excellent. +You don't go on to the next bit till you've worked that one out. +Erm and a lot of the time you don't need to multiply it out. +It's it's better for the working if you just you know show what you're going to do there. +That's it. +Eight times six man days. +Now even if you put that in your calculator and you get it wrong, and you get fifty or something. +Then you're going to get a lot of the marks for it, because they can show +Yeah. +that's what you mean. +So +Right. +So long would it take twelve men. +eight six Twelve men. +Okay. +Now you've got your you've got your twelve +Now I'm stuck here. +Right okay. +It's now now we've switched round differently. +There we were sort of trying to find out how many men. +But here we know how many men take how many days? +And it's this this thing here. +But it's that's how many days they took. +Because how many man days will it be now? +It'll be twelve men times +Yeah. +that many days. +And the twelves'll cancel and you'll finish up with eight by six again. +eight times six. + +Good morning ladies and gentlemen. +I think it's slightly after the witching hour, so that I think we should begin. +May I first welcome you all here. +It's very good to see you, and er, I hope the day will be fruitful for all of us. +Can I begin by making er er couple of apologies. +Our Chairman. +Geoffrey is recuperating from er er an operation on his back, and Barbara , although not here this morning, hopefully may well be here this afternoon, but she's been incapacitated by a fall which er, broke her leg. +And I'm sure that er, you would wish me, er, hope they both get well very soon, as I say, Barbara hopefully will be here er, this afternoon. +Erm, it's been an important year for us, and I think that, you may recall that last year we talked a bit about the Nathan report, and er, if you look at the Directors er, report, you will see that quite a lot of the work that we talked about and was in the Nathan report, is now under way, and I think it's very important. +Er, our importance has er, frankly now been recognised by the Prime Minister, who talked about the voluntary organisations not very long ago and referred to us as cement, which holds society together, and I think if that's right, and hopefully, the government may take a bit more notice of us. +Erm, because of the Nathan reports, I mentioned to you last year, we're going to have to raise more money than we thought sometime ago. +And, I'd like to say that er, Diana er er, has been extremely helpful, and I've given her a bit of he aid, in trying to raise that kind of money. +As you know our er Director left er, in the middle of the year. +Usha, and er I'd like, on your behalf, to thank you for all she did, and to wish her well in whatever else she decides to do. +Er, we have in her place, Judy, whose sitting here and I know that every official, and I hope yourselves, will give her all the support that she will need in this job and to say to her, your very welcome, and I know we're going to enjoy having you with us. +Erm, may I just say, that you may recall, that at the nineteen eighty-eight A G M, we agreed that they'd be no smoking here, er, and I hope that er er, can be adhered to, er, and finally er, I have a fairly full agenda, and the officials have have sort of er, measured it to the nearest minute. +Why allowed three minutes for, but I might extend that to three and a quarter, I think, if the time goes well. +Well now, you've had the Minutes of the last A G M meeting, that blue copy, and may I take it that er you accept those, and we can agree that they are accepted. +Thank you very much, that's very helpful to me. +Thank you. +Now we come to resolution one, which is the Annual Report, the Accounts, and the Auditors, and although Geoffrey is not here, er, we've done a video of him, which is now about to be shown, who will introduce er this, and I just like to say, that this has been sponsor the cost of it has been sponsored by the Shell International Petroleum Company, to whom we are very grateful if my head pops up and obscures some of the shout down, will you +may I add my own very warm welcome to +The absence of one ordinary officer at the Annual General Meeting may appear a misfortune, of two carelessness, but may I assure you, that we are with you in spirit, that the loss is ours alone, and that the proceedings will be conducted with their usual expedition and efficiency, despite, and I hope no one said before our absence from. +The year has been one of change, of achievement, and of challenge. +We have seen most notably in left us to be succeeded by . +For the clarity of in dealing with the a particular contribution has laid in developing the relationship between the sector and Government +And as for the ensuing year, and that they be paid for the services, a sum to be determined by the N C V O Executive Committee. +Thank you. +Thank you very much indeed. +I can now ask er Geoffrey to second the motion, please. +Good morning, erm, do I need to switch something on, oh, it's working now. +Good morning, I must say, I I stand before you today somewhat nervous, because erm, this is, this is my first to you as Treasurer, but this will be a slightly different speech from one's that I have given in previous years. +Treasurers suffer the erm, the occupational hazard that they always, to some extent, have to cry wolf. +They have to advise caution in the use of finance. +They have to judge quite carefully the extent to which they should er, advise the caution, because if they advise too much caution, then erm, er people will er, restrain themselves and then perhaps if things aren't really bad, no longer believe the Treasurer. +If they too much caution, then erm, if they advise too little caution, then then things can run away with themselves. +So in the past few years, I have given a speech which has has drawn attention to the the deficit on our General Fund and our need for continued care, to reduce the deficit. +Erm, some years ago, the Executive Committee set us the target of reducing our deficit to nil, and reducing the deficit to nil by the year ninety-one, ninety-two. +I have to say, that the the year wo I that I'm reporting on now, nineteen ninety, ninety-one was actually better than we had originally planned and expected, and in fact, that we did eliminate the deficit in that year. +If you look at the accounts, you will see that they record a deficit on the general fund of a hundred and twenty-three thousand, but if you deal, if you delve more carefully in the accounts, more closely, you will find, in fact, that the the money we raised on the appeal fund was greater than that deficit shown on the general fund, and so in fact, our income during the year, was greater than our expenditure, and we have achieved a small surplus. +It was achieved, erm, through reorganisation, it was achieved through careful planning of expenditure, but there was also an element of of luck in that erm, the staff vacancy level that we had pending the reorganisation, was was higher than we had had planned for. +But nevertheless, I think it is a substantial achievement, er and it reflects well on on our former Director and it reflects well on our staff, that it has been made. +Th there are also now, prospects for a modest surplus in the current financial year, and our projections show that zero deficit is achievable in the the future years, with a continued drive for care in expenditure and for the rising of income. +But I I would slip back to my normal gloomy cautious self, and say that we do need to balance the years of deficit we have had, with years of surplus, we need to look at N C V O's finances over a longer term, than simply one year. +We need to take the deficit years, with the surplus years, and so, simply because we have a surplus, it doesn't mean to say we can go out and start spending. +We do need to continue to control our expenditure and to be careful about raising income and where appropriate charging for services. +One area where the accounts do show some growth, though, is in special projects. +There there was a very substantial increase in ninet ninety ninety-one, and I'm happy to say that, all but two of those projects have been fully funded by sponsors, and in fact, our policy now, and this is operated from the the first of April this year, is that all projects shall be fully funded by sponsors, and that includes a contribution to the overheads that erm, the projects incur. +The market value of our investments rose to er, two point one million. +There have been drawings on those investments, though, mainly, the the the main two have been to fund the redundancies associated with the reorganisation, and to grant a dowry to N A C V S, on its independence from the Council. +Our investments now, all match er, the ethical investment policy which has been agreed by the Investment Panel. +I would, by the way, like to thank the members of, of the Investment Panel, for the help and support they've given me, and also, in fact, to point out that erm, although s er, your your Chairman has spoken of Sir Ray severing his formal links with the Council, I have to say that we still do have one or two claws still attached to him, in that he remains on, as a very valued member of the Investment Panel, and will continue to provide his wisdom and advice, for which we are all very grateful. +The progress towards our erm, compliance with our ethical investment policy though, has been achieved while considering the need to secure the best returns possible on our investment, and we have done it through a series of progressive sales of investments at the appropriate times according to the market conditions, and so I'm happy to say that we have been able to achieve both our responsibilities as trustees, our responsibility both to secure the best return on investment and, to to consider wider policy implications of our investment policy. +I think I should point out, though, that erm, in the future, there will, we are planning some substantial drawings on our funds. +Erm, firstly for office automation, to improve the effectiveness with which our staff can operate, and secondly, for the office accommodation itself. +I think members will probably by now, be aware that a decision has been taken to leave the offices in Bedford Square where we have been for so many years. +I don't think anyone will dispute that those are not offices suited to us in the nineties. +There not offices best calculated to enable us to perform effectively. +We have identified a new property which we can move to, and it is available to us, either to rent or to buy. +Two years ago, when the prospect of moving was first raised, erm, I was very firmly of the opinion that we should continue to rent our offices, because I didn't believe that erm, we were a property speculation company. +I believe that we are the National Council for Voluntary Organisations, in a very different business. +I have to say though, that market conditions have changed very substantially in the last couple of years, and we now have an opportunity before us, which is one which is unlikely to recur again. +We need to move, at the same time that the property market is in a substantial slump, and th are therefore offices available to us at a very very competitive price. +And in fact, if we are able to negotiate a loan, to buy the new premises, we should be able to do so on terms which would enable our repayment of the loan to be comparable with what we are currently paying,an and would expect to pay in rent. +So I hope, very much, that erm, at the end of the current financial year, I shall be able to give a even more optimistic erm, report, that not only have we brought the current account deficit under control, but that in fact, the organisation is in a much healthier financial position for the long term. +And er, I think, I wo I would wish to extend my thanks to all the finance staff, er, particularly Ann in helping us to arrive at this position. +So, in summing up then, I I feel slightly nervous that it is a different speech from the one I normally give, but I am confident, that we are now able to go forward, much more optimistically, based on a much stronger financial position. +And I therefore second the the resolution one, for the adoption of the accounts. +Well, thank you very much er, Geoffrey, erm that was a very full, and I think er, and as he says, cautious account of what's been happening, and he does remind me of all the finance officers that I've ever known, in this thing, I've never really seen, or rarely seen them smile. +Er, which is probably a good thing. +The ones that smile, incidentally, usually go the bankruptcy court, so I think we're in good shape here. +Now, as I say, it's been a fairly full account, but just before I put er, er, the motion to you, are there any points, or questions you'd like to raise No, well, thank you very much. +Er, we've read the resolution out to you, er, er, it's been appropriately proposed and seconded. +May I ask, all those in favour, please, to show their hands those against. +The resolution is carried. +Thank you very much. +Now we now come to resolution two, which is in effect the appointment of the, er Honorary Officers. +I think you've all seen who they are, and, I don't propose to read those,un unless you think I should, but they're there, I think, on the er, papers that you've er received. +So, may I ask, erm, er, where are we, I keep forgetting +Andrea +Oh yes, Andrea that's right. +May I ask Andrea to er proposed the motion, please. +Thank you,I shall do nothing further than read out erm, a list of all the officers who erm, President Vice President, the Right Honourable Dr Leslie Mr Peter , the Honourable Kenneth and Vice President Alan . +Chairman,Vice Chair Honorary Treasurer I'm sure all of us, who are involved in the Executive Council of N C V O will recognised that +Thank you very much Andrea. +Er, now may I ask Mr Graham to second that motion, please. +It would probably to appropriate for me to er second the motion in Welsh er, but as you're and neither the English Welsh I would just like to say a few things, one, to express the appreciation of my council for the and secondly, to +Well, thank you very much. +Er, well the names have been read out to you. +And the motion is in effect to elect or to re-elect them. +May I have all those in favour, please to show their hands. +Thank you. +Those against. +The motion is carried. +Now, we now come to er, the resolution, to er, +Three. +it's resolution er three, and it is to er er, in effect to er, er appoint the the Executive Committee, and I don't propose to read through all those, er er, but perhaps Tony can help me. +Erm, all I need to say about these, I think, is that, where the statement er to be announced is, we'll give you the names. +The only thing we can't do, is under Community Organisation Eight, to give you the name of the representative of organisation development. +We haven't yet got that, but we will give it to you in due course. +Er, we've got, well, +The two under N A C V S, erm, Chair, are Christine and . +Unfortunately we also now that Tim can't erm, fulfil the responsibilities in the planning and environment electoral college and Robert will take his place. +Thank you very much. +Er, can I ask now, er Mr Leslie to propose the resolution, please. +Sorry, Chairman, I +I er, I do beg your pardon. +Mr Chairman, in his er, video to us, er drew attention to the, both the external and internal challenges which face us at the present time. +It is essential that we should maintain both our sensitivity and our effectiveness, if we are to protect and watch over the interests of the people we work for and provide the kind of services they need. +I think, therefore we are extremely fortunate, that so many people of distinction and talent are willing to give up time to serve on the Executive of the N C V O to work with the honourary officers and the Director and her team, to ensure that N C V O maintain such a central role in watching over our interests and in promoting the concerns of the people of this country, that we are all so active about. +I would just like to say, record our thanks to those who are retiring, and to welcome most warmly those who have come forward to serve and to propose the list, er, last, but certainly not least, our warmest thanks to Bronwyn and her colleagues in the voluntary services unit, for their ongoing and invaluable support to N C V O er, throughout the years. +Er, I have pleasure in proposing resolution three, I think you have absolved me, Chairman, from reading out all the names. +Of course, thank you very much. +Er, I must apologise again for what, er the way I addressed you, but of course with all these women equality er, movements going on, I never know whether its Mr, Mrs, or Ms. Erm, now I may call on Doctor Manchago to second the motion, please. +We thought he might not quite make it in time. +May I have a seconder, please, from the, er, audience for this. +Now don't be shy. +Thank you. +What is, give us your name, please. +Thank you. +Thank you very much, indeed. +Well, you've got the list of names and er, I think Mrs was quite right in asking not to read them all out. +But er, we'd we obviously like your agreement to er to this very important er resolution. +May I have a show of hands, from all those in favour, please. +Thank you, anyone against. +Well, thank you very much indeed, er, the resolution is er, carried. +Erm, we're coming as it were to the end of the first part of the proceedings, er, but, I'd like to give a brief thanks to the er, C R group, that's the Charities Recruitment Group, for the part sponsorship of this A G M Conference. +They gave us a thousand pound, that is really very important, I think, and we're most grateful. +Erm, and that really is the end of, as it were, I beg your pardon, yes. +Before you end,a few minutes, er, Mr President, I wonder if I can just say, er, that you may remember, this really is a matter arising, but you may remember that, at the last meeting, of, of, the Annual General Meeting of N C V O, er, my organisation, the National Federation of Community Organisations was was bold enough to propose a resolution other than, than those required, and it is in your Minutes, if you have them. +I really just wanted to to record our appreciation erm, and I think those of others too. +Er, for, for, what N C V O has done in the year. +I'm not saying necessarily in response to that resolution, but at least in the direction that we were hoping. +the resolution was about encouraging N C V O to give er,ad adequate and appropriate support and weight to the needs of small organisations, as well as the needs of larger charities and voluntary organisations. +And it is our experience in a number of ways, that N C V O has over this last year, done that very thing, and I wanted just to record that, and I'm thinking particularly, but there are other examples, of the work on the charities bill, er, and the work that N C V O's doing in relation to the Windsor Group. +Erm, and also er, the involv the work involving the training trustees working party. +I'm sure there are other other examples, but I just really wanted to record that appreciation. +Well thank you very much indeed, we er, appreciate that, and I'm sure the staff will appreciate it, thank you. +Well, as I say, er the this part of the meeting is now formally ended, and I'm going to hand over to er Kay who will Chair the next session, er er which involves of course, as you've seen, presentations by the N C V O senior staff. +Ca can I just say one thing, though, if you me nip out, it's not that I don't want to listen to this, er, it's in connection with the property er worries that er, Geoffrey said, I've got to sign a lot of er, arm twisting letters, which I, they want me to sign today, so if I can take five minutes out to sign those, I hope you will not feel I'm trying to er skive off, as it were. +Sue +Thank you, +Thank you. +You may now begin. +I may now begin, good. +My sex is determined. +Well, good morning again, and welcome ladies and gentlemen, members of Council, colleagues and friends. +We now come to the second part of our programme, according to our agenda, which has the broad heading,Achiev N C V O Achievements and Intentions, and it's obviously a natural follow-on from the I er, A G M which we have just completed, at which council received the annual report of N C V O's work for the past year, and its use of the resources which are available to it to carry out that work. +We now, I think er, going to hear from members of the Management Team, more detailed information on working progress and priority issues. +Judy our new Director will lead her team, of Simon , Richard and To and er Tony and I think it seems particularly er, appropriate and important that Judy at her first appearance here as Director, although many of us present, I know, would remember her wearing other hats, should have this opportunity of speaking the Councillor members and giving us some idea of how the Management Team see the future before us in the years to come. +Judy, you lead. +Thank you very much. +This is an exceedingly exciting time to be joining N C V O. I took over from at the beginning of September, nineteen ninety-one, with the reorganisation, thankfully fully, in place, and a clear strategic plan to fulfil our role as the voice of the voluntary sector. +That's quite a daunting task. +My job is to implement our mission, to promote a thriving and effective voluntary sector. +By providing leadership, representation and support. +In a nutshell, I see N C V O as something like, perhaps, the C B I of the voluntary sector. +Well, we're here in this building, perhaps we have some differences, of course, we can't quite match the C B Is resources, but who knows. +Through our membership we represent an enormous range of voluntary sector interests, and as you can see, from our electoral college headings, such as Education and Training, Employment and Leisure, Ethnic Minorities, Health and Disability, Income Maintenance and Poverty, Personal Family Services, Planning an Environment, women, you, professional learners society, public bodies trusts and foundations, my goodness what a list. +What a diversity. +It is gratifying to see the newly independent off-shoots of N C V O join the ranks of members, such as the national association, the council for voluntary services, the organisation development unit, and the black environment network. +And also our most recent émigré, the WasteWatch, who are about to do so this year. +N C V O has a proud record over the years, of developing and promoting new initiatives, to meet new needs, and to fill gaps in voluntary sector initiatives. +Many of those which we have helped into independence are now household names, such as, Age Concern, National Association of Citizens' Advice Bureaux. +However, the ranks are much more numerous as you can see. +All are playing important parts in the voluntary sector. +As I now personally from one of my previous lives in nineteen eighty-two, when I became the first Director of the newly independent National Federation of Community Organisations. +Erm, but I didn't prime the previous speaker who spoke so nicely er, about N C V O even though we do seem to be in a mutual admiration society. +N C V O will carry on with this vital role, and enriching and enlarging the dynamics of the voluntary sector. +N C V O works in partnership with many other organisations. +In the voluntary, commercial and statutory sectors. +To achieve our goals, and of course, we work closely with our sister councils in Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales, and we put domestic issues in the wider European and International scene as well . +Over the coming years, I want to see us widen and extend our membership and our networking incorporation with other charities even further. +We need to improve the ways in which you are involved in N C V O's work, thus giving legitimacy to voice, and empowering N C V O and our members in the causes that we all care about. +We care about the voluntary sectors independence, its innovation, its flexibility and its responsiveness to the needs of those without financial power. +The manifesto which N C V O produced recently, articulate many of our concerns, and presses the Government and other political practi other political parties to make improvements to respond to your concerns. +I have found an excellent team of people who are highly committed and motivated and who work for N C V O as honorary officers, of staff, as members of all the various committees and working groups, task forces, er, and think tanks, and any other name that we can think up to involve you. +I am very proud to have this opportunity to work with all of you, to promote the uniqueness of the voluntary sector. +Some areas of our work will be discussed in much greater detail in the seminars this afternoon. +On charity and politics, on Europe, on communications, and on trustee training. +These represent some of the major issues currently on our agenda. +We believe that N C V O has a key role to play in involving the voluntary sector in representing your concerns. +Some of the work we do supporting the voluntary sector and providing services will also be reflected in the stores and displays that we're making available over the lunch period. +They cover our oral work, our advice services, our membership and affiliation services, and our publications. +Now I am delighted to be able to hand over the spot-light to my three management colleagues on the management team. +Tony in charge of services and communication, Simon in charge of policy and development, Richard in charge of resource development, and although it's not on the script and she said I mustn't to the script, I ought to mention also Samantha who has joined us as head of communications on whom, you may thank for all the sort of visuals that we're having, and the bright idea of videoing er, our Chairman. +So I I look forward to her input as well to our image and our presentation. +Thank you very much. +Thank you very much Judy. +We'll go straight through the presentations, and then there is an opportunity, obviously for you to ask questions or, and to join in generally discussion. +So if I go straight over and invite Simon to address us next, please. +It's great. +Super. +Morning. +It is clear that er, one of N C V O principle functions is to act as the voice of the voluntary sector. +Representing the interests and reflecting the concerns of voluntary organisations and charities throughout England. +Of course, this does not mean that we're the only voice speaking up on behalf of the voluntary sector. +Many voluntary organisations including numbers of our members, many present here today, will be speaking forcefully in the interests of particular groups within society with which they work. +But it undoubtedly does fall to N C V O and rightly so, to take the responsibility of representing the interests of the sector on a range of general issues. +If N C V O is to be able to fulfil this purpose effectively, we must be working closely with our members, and we must have their confidence and respect, and such confidence, of course, is a two way process. +N C V O needs to be sharing its knowledge, its information and general resources with its members, and also needs to ensure that its work is firmly grounded in the experience and knowledge of the plethora of voluntary organisations and charities, with which contact is maintained on a regular basis. +Now it seems to me, that er, the watch-word for our policy development work over the next few years, must be effective co-ordination with our members and the wider voluntary sector. +Our principle function within the policy development department within N C V O must be to work with, and not simply for our member and the wider sector. +Other constituencies, of course, are important. +Central Government, local authorities, the academic communities and so on, they are undoubtedly important, but they are subsidiary to the interest of the sector itself. +N C V O must therefore, draw together voluntary organisations effectively and be seen to be responsive and creative. +There are many issues where a N C V O should be exercising leadership, sometimes a rather difficult concept, and there is no need to apologise for that, for using leadership at the right time, but it has to be a leadership by consent, rather than claimed without authority, and it is in this context that the policy development department in N C V O exists, to help channel voluntary sector concerns to opinion formers, and policy makers, regardless of party politics, regardless of political commitment. +And following N C V O recent reorganisation, the policy development department broadly consists of the following. +I thought it was useful to repeat this for other peoples information. +Firstly we have an economic policy team. +Concentrating its attention on central and local government funding, of the voluntary sector itself. +The implications of the efficiency scrutiny review, training and employment, and fiscal issues. +Secondly, we have now a grandiosely named, social and public policy team, which is valiantly covering charity law, local government structural changes, the right of duty of voluntary organisations to campaign, work with the new national forum on the environment and health and community care issues. +Thirdly, our policy analysis and research team, takes responsibility for looking further ahead, and doing a lot of the initial thinking about both the challenges and the opportunities that will affect the sector domestically and internationally over the next few years. +Additionally, the department covers parliamentary lobbying work, our European and international responsibilities. +It supports the national self-help support centre and the waste-watch project. +We all know that we have yet again a busy and exciting year in front of us. +The new year sees the publication of changing Europe. +This book will help readers to understand the single European market, not an easy thing in itself, and how it may affect voluntary organisations and users. +Undoubtedly, N C V O existing work relating to the European Community and the voluntary sector has become ever more important, year by year. +Already much work has been done on the impact of the single market on voluntary organisations. +The implications of the moves towards greater E C integration for the sector, encouraging the development of effective networks, of voluntary organisations across the community as a whole, and building relationships with all the institutions, of the European Community to ensure that the interests of the voluntary sector in the United Kingdom are both maintained and arguable enhanced. +We often claim for instance, that this country has a particularly unique and distinctive voluntary sector which is not matched elsewhere. +If this is so, we need to be positive and confident about our experiences, and we should try to export our best attributes to others in the community. +We will no doubt find, and again rightly so, that we have as much to learn from others, as to give. +The Prime Minister's recent speech at the Charities Aid Foundation Conference, indicates that the Government is going to make the encouragement of voluntary sector across the er, community and in encouragement of voluntary activity, a principle focus of the U K Presidency of the community from July next year. +That will give us many important opportunities which we must not let drop. +N C V O has taken the initiative in putting up a number of ideas to the Prime Minister's and the Home Office, to make this commitment a meaningful one, and a constructive one for voluntary organisations in this country. +We are also embarking on vitally important work on the new charity law legislation which has been referred to already, on local government legislation, in relation to both the structure of local government and the new council tax system. +And only yesterday, at N C V O's annual lobby conference on the implications of the Queen's speech, we were talking with a number of our members about legislative priorities for the period, up to the forthcoming General Election, whenever that is. +Finally, I can't finish without mentioning health and community care. +The publication of the Government's Green Paper, health of the nation and all the work going on around the country, on the implementation programme for the community care reforms, means that N C V O must attempt to rebuild its own capacity, to undertake effective policy development work in these areas. +We continue to support and chair the community care alliance of voluntary organisations, a very important development, in the last few years. +Our director serves on one of the official Department of Health's steering groups, dealing with health of the nation and its implementation. +We're also very hopeful that we will have some extra support and assistance in this field at N C V O within the near future. +Now these, of course, are just a few of the areas that the N C V O's policy development work is intending to cover and will be concentrating on, in the year ahead. +If we're to do this work effectively, er, then it has to be in conjunction with you. +Therefore I come back to where I started. +Working in conjunction effectively with you, our members, and it has to meet your needs and interests as well as our own, and I'm therefore looking forward to the possibility, in fact, the certainty of us having a year of achievement us for the interests of the voluntary sector. +Thank you. +Thank you very much, Simon. +I now ask Richard to address, please. +Thank you . +Good morning. +As well as addressing some of the major policy issues affecting the sector, N C V O also has an important role in helping voluntary organisations to do their job better. +Voluntary organisations need practical advise on fund-raising, legal issues, accountancy, and many other aspects of their work. +They also need to be able to manage their affairs effectively, and learn to develop constructive partnerships. +It's the role of the resource development department, to ensure that they get the advise and help they need to do this, either from N C V O or from others. +The department also has a specific interest in ensuring N C V O is sensitive to the needs of rural areas, and rural voluntary organisations. +To help us develop a strategic approach to advise provision, we've embarked on a mapping exercise. +This will involve a national survey early next year, funding by Thames Telethon and others, to establish where voluntary organisations currently get their advice from. +What they think of current provision and what the main gaps are, both now and in the future, and the outcome will be a five year advice development strategy, which will be publishing to guide both N C V O and other providers and funders. +One of the fastest growing interests in the voluntary sector is the environment. +Yet most environmental groups are not currently plugged into existing sources of advice and do not have a tradition of working together. +We therefore established a new three year environmental support project funded by the D O E and B P to address these concerns. +Other important activities in our advice development team, include fund raising advice, increasing access to national vocational qualifications and running a short course programme which is the largest programme of its kind in the country. +Advance in good management is the main theme of our management development team, as well as being the title of a new three year project we launched last year. +Seven regional initiatives are now being funded with the help of the V S U, the Department of Trade and Industry, and a number of private sector funders, including British Telecom, Save and Prosper, B P and I B M. The lessons from these projects and others will be widely promoted. +Earlier this year, we also established a joint working party with the charity commission on trustee training. +With Winifred as Chair, and Diane as Vice Chair, the working party has received evidence from over fifty people, as well as conducting its own survey of trustees and management committees, with a tighter framework of regulation resulting from the charity bill, it will be more important than ever, that trustees are aware of their very considerable responsibilities, and well equipped to take them on. +The working party will be publishing its report next April. +Voluntary organisations need to work more and more in partnership with others. +For their part, other sectors like local government, health authorities, civil servants, private companies and other agencies, also need advice on how to work with the voluntary sector. +We already run the N C V O corporate affiliation scheme, which next year we plan to expand and develop, and we've just launched L A Link, a new subscription service for local authorities, providing advice and information on the development of partnership, and there's an exhibition about this in the concourse. +Contracting is a particular form of relationship between the public and voluntary sectors, which is causing considerable concern amongst voluntary organisations. +Recognising the importance of this issue, we've been able to develop a three year project, to provide training, advice, and information to voluntary groups, about how best to respond to the contract culture. +This has been generously supported by the Department of Health, the Nuffield Foundation, Bearing Trust, Allied Dunbar and will be launching that early next year. +Finally, the rural team in the Resource Development Department plays a vital role in ensuring all N C V O's work takes on board the rural dimension. +Through promoting rural voluntary action and developing community care in rural areas, the rural team never let us forget that over twenty per cent of the population live in rural areas. +This will be my last N C V O, A G M as a member of staff since I'm leaving at the end of January, to become Chief Executive of Arthritis Care. +However, I'm very much looking forward to being a member of N C V O as well as being a consumer of its excellent services, and while I've got the the platform, I'd like to take this opportunity to wish Judy every success as Director of N C V O. I think she's got off to a marvellous start, and I'm sure that N C V O's gonna flourish under her leadership. +Thank you. +Thank you very much Richard. +I shall resist the temptation to say all sorts of nice things about you at this point, because there would be other opportunities obviously. +I'll ask Tony now to address us, please. +take my watch madam Chairman, +Oh, yes. +Thank you, Kay. +Good morning, everyone. +It's perhaps fitting that the Services and Communication Department should bring up the rear in this group of presentations, because one of its key priorities is to provide a coherent professional support service to the organisation as a whole. +This is reflected in in that of N C V O's three strategic objectives, which relates to improving its own operational effectiveness, and enhancing recognition of its role. +Making sure N C V O's operation is fit for this task is a team of people who specialisms include, personnel, training, information and technology, communications, fund raising, finance, office management, and of course, the law. +In looking back at the department's achievements, one has to accept that reorganisation which Judy and Simon have already referred to, has because of its sheer scale and impact on N C V O been something of an abiding preoccupation over the past twelve to eighteen months. +The main work-load on programming, the implementation of change and steering through the necessary mass of procedures and consultation to successful conclusion has fallen to my department's team leaders, and in particular to Ruth in Personnel and training. +In parallel with this, Ann has overseen the establishment of entirely new team budgeting processes, and Tracy has made sure that staff affected by chance have appropriate space and office facilities to do their jobs. +It will be wrong however, to conclude that the department's role is entirely directed inwards towards N C V O effectiveness, vital though that is. +Many members will be aware that the professional advice on which N C V O depends is also available to them, and other organisations, particularly in the areas of legal work, personnel, finance and office technology, we find there is a high demand for advice which we intend to continue to satisfy in the years ahead. +As Richard has said earlier, this is an area on which strategic work will be undertaken in the next couple of years or so. +A Business As Usual approach has also been maintained by N C V O Information and Technology team, under Joan . +Despite the challenge a reshaping information services to meet the needs of the new teams, and outside users as well as developing a strategy for the completely overhaul of our office technology requirements. +The implementation programme for which has now begun. +I suppose one of the most fundamental changes brought about by reorganisation, though, was the creation of a team, which for the first time, consolidated into one management structure. +All functions relating to enquiries, publicity, press, media, production, publishing and fund raising. +Considerable work has been initiated through the medium of a communication strategy, and we're delighted that the loss of Amanda er, many of of you will know Amanda and will know where she's gone to. +This, she left at a critical time. +That's now been placed in proper context by the arrival of Samantha as Head of Communications, as Judy said earlier on, we're already beginning to enjoy the fruits of her skills, in the presentation surely you're seeing today. +Looking more to the future now, again as Judy and other colleagues have implied, N C V O places high priority on increasing membership, supported by effective communications. +Service development, and policy involvement. +The Services and Communication Department looks forward to playing an important part in this, perhaps starting with the communications seminar this afternoon. +Given alternative attractions this afternoon, though, we shall make sure this is not the only opportunity for members to contribute to the debate. +Finally, you'll want to know the significance of the photograph behind me. +The avid readers of the N C V O News will have spotted reference to the fact that we shall be moving offices from next June, and of course, the Treasurer had a fair bit to say about this earlier on. +What you're looking at is a representation of a purpose built office of some twenty one thousand square feet, near King's Cross. +It's currently nearing completion. +I'm delighted now, to be able to inform members that terms have been agreed and the property's formally under offer and off the market. +As many of you will know, from first hand experience, there are few things which have a greater impact on morale and productivity, than the working environment and associated facilities. +We now have the challenge of a marvellous opportunity for the physical re-establishment of N C V O for years to come, in premises which will fully meet the needs both of its staff, and the wide range of visitors it attracts. +One could quite probably say on this occasion. +Watch this space. +Thank you. +Thank you very much, Tony. +What a marvellously exciting point at which to leave us, as it were. +We've now had, I think this very ex exciting very interesting wonderfully co-ordinated erm, overview, of the issues of the work done in the different areas. +It's now over to you, this is your opportunity. +Ask questions, make comments to enter into the discussion. +If you would very kindly state your name and your organisation just for the record. +Whose going to be the first. +Is this a, is this a good feature to include on this day, while you're thinking about it. +Is this a good idea, to have this kind of er, presentation to bring you up to date. +Good. +Well t well let's have. +I'm gi I'm giving them time to think, you see. +There's someone there. +Ar, please. +I just been in loads of workshops +Leslie. +this afternoon, but we won't all be in that workshop, sorry, just to have, perhaps Samantha, if you'd just say what of the new communications strategy, I think members ourselves, but in a sense it would be very useful to know what the others, perhaps we could take some of it back with us. +Erm, thank you, Leslie. +Erm, I understand that Samantha is actually outside at the moment waiting to meet Sir Leonard So er would +I was only telling Tony +Er, could we just er wait,sh he should be arriving in just five minutes, if we could come back to that a a later, could we? +Perhaps I can say, that what I'd like to see is N C V O be much more corporate in the way it approaches things, erm, many of you will have seen many of our publications, but, you may not always realise they come from N C V O, sometimes it's not always easy to see that, you have to search through and, not always find it, and we've got many different images, so I think it's important we er get a whole corporate image across. +But it's also important that we get our message across more effectively, and in that, that we're reflecting your views more effectively. +So I think the communications department wanted to pull together all of these issues, and make sure that we hear your voice effectively, we represent it effectively and that, the sense in which N C V O comes over as an organisation is more appropriately presented and projected in all the many different spheres in which we're currently operating. +I don't know if that meets, meets your point. +Th erm, there's at at the back, please. +Er, Mick +counselling er, and it follows directly from what was said, erm, Judy has referred in her talk about the importance of communications with members, and I'm delighted to note, that erm, the Health and Disability Group, is to have a meeting in January to look at a variety of issues including the health work of N C V O. This is the first meeting for I think, two years, and if it new era in communications, I for one am delighted. +Thank you, perhaps I can comment on that. +I'm keen to see a real dialogue with our members, er, how we achieve that I don't know, we've got the most enormous diversity of membership as I mentioned in my speech, but the more that we can get a a good dialogue going, and certainly I used to be a member of Health and erm, Disability Group, and remember that it was a very useful meeting point, er, as well as a good arena for developing policy initiatives. +So I hope that we will find ways of creatingl , creatively involving all of you, and perhaps that would be a good start, I hope so, anyway. +Thank you very much Judy, er Simon or does any other member of the team. +Do you wish to add to +no, no. +Per perhaps I can just say one point. +Sometimes we're concerned as to whether N C V O is competing with its membership about what we do, and I know that a point has been raised on that, er, by somebody who I think is present today. +We don't see ourselves. +I want to see N C V O as co-operating. +If you, as our members are doing something well, our role is to support you. +If you're doing something well, but there are other areas that need to be filled in, our role is to compliment you. +If many of you are doing something well, but you need to be brought together, our role is to co-ordinate you, and if you're not doing something and it needs doing, then our role is to initiate it. +But all the time it is working with you, and not in competition with you. +Thank you very much, erm, at the back, please. +erm, I would certainly stand up and and and er share everyone's congratulations of what N C V O's done over the la past year, and certainly we've had an enormous amount of help, particularly from the rural. +But, I have been a little concerned th th the the term, equal opportunities hasn't been mentioned once today, and I would like a reassurance that it's not because it's year's or the last decade's issue. +I would like to know what N C V O currently is doing in a number of ways, about equal opportunities. +Thank you. +Right,may maybe I'll, I'll just start, and my colleagues can can add in, I'm hogging the platform as usual. +Can I say that, when I was interviewed for the job of er, Director, or I was asked along with other applicants, to put forward a er paper presenting my issues and concerns, and I can say to you, equal opportunities was a key one there. +So I hope there will be other developments going on. +But certainly, equal opportunities as as a part of the integral working of N C V O and we do regularly review, how we, as an organisation, are meeting our equal opportunities requirements across the board, that's race, sex, disability, er,in involving the the staff who are at lower levels and so on. +I do that there are some wider responsibilities, we need to keep reviewing what we're up to. +Er, the organisation development unit was highly involved with the er, abilities and management development of er, black organisations. +Now that they gone independent, we've got to again look and see what are our roles there. +So it's a continually renewing effort, I believe, er, but I like to have the contribution of some of my colleagues, as to what they feel th the roles are. +I think one of the reason why you haven't heard it mentioned specifically is because it is integral to a lot of the bits of work that we're doing. +Just to to site some of the bits of work that I was talking about, erm, the Trustee Training Working Party, for example, er, in,ha has got on it, a representative from the black voluntary sector. +We've looked particularly at some of the kinds of er, issues, that black and ethnic minority groups experience in that area. +The mapping we are particularly targeting certain kinds of disadvantaged. +The groups in our survey worked to make sure that we look at the needs, advice needs that they have, and that's brought out. +The advancing good management project again, has prioritised certain kinds of disadvantage organisations, to ensure that they're getting funded, and that's also reflected in the representation on the Committee. +So I think you can be assured that it's not something that's been put to one side, it's something that we're trying to build in to all the work we do, in whatever ways appropriate, but er, I accept that the the implications for your comment, that we've got to be continually, er watching ourselves, to make sure that we do that. +Thank you, Richard. +Simon +Yes, I was going to to to add to that slightly, and to what Judy said, in in the sense that the implication, the question I think, is a correct one, that every organisation, and N C V O wouldn't be immune er, than from any other, have got to actually ensure that they keep this at the front of their agenda all the time. +It's, it's quite right that it should be integrated in all our work programmes, rather than, it seems as necessarily a separatist erm, element or thing. +But of course, the danger on the other side of the coin, if you simply rely on that, is that you actually begin to loose focus, or you begin to ignore it without meaning to, inadvertently. +And I think it's both important for N C V O itself, to ensure that it's working on issues, equal opportunities issues that affect itself, and that it's helping the sector as a whole to do that, and and we're very conscious of that, and er, certainly just in the last few weeks, have been looking at how we can upgrade what we're doing in that sphere. +Thank you. +Can can I add to that, erm, Kay, by saying that, our concentration with within my department +Mm. +and personnel particularly, is on ensuring that N C V Os as an organisation is upholding the highest standards around equal opportunities, erm, our employment records are subject to regular monitoring, and we discuss, I mean, in a brain-storming way various issues that emerge from the figures that we get. +So as an organisation we we're very much have an awareness of the need to be exemplary in that respect. +Thank you. +Angela and I was head of the International Department from nineteen forty-eight to nineteen seventy-two. +Hello. +I have be very interested to hear about the recent developments and most impressed at what's taken place, but er, I would like to ask about the international work, which I understand has been reduced. +I feel, personally this is a pity now we're coming into Europe and er trying to be international, but I'm sure there was a very good reason for it, and I sh , I should like to know what it was. +I'm sure they'll hasten to say, not reduced, just done in a different way, but shall I ask +Yes. +Thank you very much for that question, I think it is an important one, because we looked at our international work, as we did at all our work, over the period that we were considering reorganisation. +And I genuinely would say, that I actually think the amount of international and European work going on within the organisation as a whole, is now greater than it was before. +Erm, it's certainly true that we reduced the total size of a particular team or unit dealing with international affairs, but only on the grounds that we actually felt that it was very important that all the teams should be working on international and European dimensions of their work, rather than seeing it as compartmentalised in one area. +Therefore, if I just looked at some of those policy teams that I referred to in my presentation, I would expect, and it's happening, that we would be taking on board, in each of those policy teams, the policy development work that's applicable to Europe. +If we take just one example, the social and public policy team, has therefore policy responsibility for all the work, erm, from a policy point of view, er, about the legal structure that might exist in future, er, European associations that might be created, because it matches very clearly our work on charity law, domestically. +So we're trying to unite the two things together. +I think I can assure you, we've got a, an international European officer, who has the main responsibility for opening the doors for us in a lobbying way within Europe, and in addition to that, and the maintenance of the networks, we are spreading international and European responsibilities around the organisation, so it's seen again to be integral to our work, rather than compartmentalised, and I'm confident that the organisation as a whole, will therefore be doing more. +Thank you, Simon,anybod any additions to that. +No. +Erm, I'd just like to reassure the conference, that there is actually a representative erm, from a environmental organisation, here today after Richard erm, comments, Head of Communications at Friends of the Earth, erm, and also to ask him, on what basis, erm, he made the comment that environmental organisation have a tradition of not working together. +Erm, within Friends of the Earth, staff in the organisation, commonly liaise with their counter parts in other environment and development N G Os. +Erm, we do work together, where we share a common agenda, and we find that we share common policy positions, and there are a lot discussions that go on about policy questions between environmental N G Os, erm, and also like any N G O that's pressed for time and money, we work together where actually it can be justified by the results. +Erm, so really that's an enquiry, and also further explanation of the project that is being jointly funded by the D O E and B P. +Thank you, Richard. +Yes, I think my my comments, particularly directed at the regional and local level, where I think for quite understandable reasons, namely the very rapid development of new environmental organisations, er, in a lot of areas, er, we have found that the environmental groups have not er, initially been working together. +I think that's changing very much. +We've seen in a number of areas, the development of regional net environmental networks, which we have been directly involved in helping develop. +And one part of the environmental project, is to try and ensure regional environmental networks develop in all parts of the country, rather just in those where they currently exist. +The other part of the work is based on the experience, particularly of councils for voluntary service and other bodies like that, who at a local level are providing advice and support to voluntary groups. +They found that their links with environmental groups are not very good, and also that environmental groups are often not very aware of the kinds of services that a council for voluntary service can provide them. +So, the object of that part of the project is to try and address that issue, to try and make sure that N V Ss build up their links with environmental groups. +That the services they provide are relevant to environmental groups, and in that way to to help environmental groups plug in to the kinds of advice on fund raising and er, management and all sorts of other aspects of running a voluntary organisation, which, at the moment, of, er a lot of, er social service organisations plug into, but so many environmental groups. +So I I just thinks it's a, it's a feature of the rapid development of the environmental sector, that, for, as I say, for quite understandable reasons, some of those links, and networks, haven't been fully established, and our project which we see as a, as a short term one, essentially a three year bit of work, is going to address that, and it's been widely supported by er, a number of environmental groups. +Thank you Richard. +At the back, please. +I'm Nigel I'm Chief Executive of the National Charity Community of Transport which is based in Manchester, and it's that last point which is really significant behind my question, and it concerns your new premises and, I'm one it's a question as to what your planning to do, and secondly, a request if you're not, er, that you could provide within that some working space for people from out of town, to use when we're in London, complete with things like, you know, coin operated fax machines, because I find I spend quite a lot of time in London, you have meetings on successive days, you have time to kill, and there's no where sort of, comfortable to go and sit down and get on with some things. +Thank you. +Tony would you comment +I'm delighted to comment, though, subject to contract and everything else, I wouldn't give any any assurances. +May I say, right at the start of the planning processes, and we'll we'll start with N C V O's immediate needs, but we're very aware of services that other organisation need from time to time, and it's very interesting to hear that as a, as a new example. +Er, I will be fitting that in our own planning process. +There is, erm, within London, in the next fours years or so, a major initiative that's being operated under under the erm, A C E N V O, Association of Chief Executives and National Voluntary Organisations which some of you will know about. +A major er, development, somewhere around eighty to a hundred thousand square feet of resource space for organisations, and they will also, I think, be looking the sort of provision that you suggested. +There's no harm, however, in us looking at that as an option within our own space. +Thank you very much Tony. +Possibly also worth mentioning er, B P's charity base, which I think, has been a very er good recent initiative, whereby there is office sharing accommodation available, er, and all those sort of services that you talked about, so er, there is already initiative, and I think that seems to be very successful. +Thank you, the last question, I'm afraid now. +At the back, please. +My name's Alan from the Edinburgh Council Social Service to change its name in April, to the Council of Voluntary Organisations. +I'd like first of all, bring greetings north of the border. +I think I'm the only representative here, and apologies from the Director and the Chair of the Scottish Council of Voluntary Organisations. +We had our annual meeting last week, and er, very successful it was too. +I've operated er, various positions on the Celtic fringe, and I could've replied briefly to my colleague from Wales in +Not +in my haltering Welsh, I don't have any Gaelic I'm afraid. +The point I would like to make is that while we're thinking of international relations, that we do bear in mind that United Kingdom is still a United Kingdom. +We need to communicate with each other on a regularly basis over all the issues that have been raised. +I think this is extremely important. +I know it goes on. +Some of us though, working at the ground, grass roots ma may not know that it goes on, and er, I would just like to take this opportunity of stressing how important it is to, that we communicate within the United Kingdom, and er, support Nigel's er, suggestion that it would be useful to have a base down here. +He and I were at a lobby at the House of Commons yesterday, in er, celebration of the mobility allowance, which campaigned very successfully, and we, in the Community Transport field, have very close working relationships and communication. +So there's an example of where it's happening and I hope it will happen over the whole field. +Thank you. +Th thank you very much, and I'm sure we send greetings equally north of the border. +Sadly I think that our time has run out for this particular session, but I would remind you that the seminars this afternoon, erm, are, offer other opportunities to explore both some of the issues that have been raised er, through your questions now, and also others that you may wish to raise, er, with the members of staff, the leaders of the groups. +I would, before passing on the next part of our programme, I would like to warmly thank Judy and Simon and Richard and Tony, not only for their presentations, their carefully thought out presentations to give us as broad a span as possible of how they see the priorities, what is happening at this time, but for everything else they do in leading their teams and initiating so many of the exchanges that take place, which adds so much, as has been said by, both by Judy and by other speakers, to carry N C V O forward. +We are enormously fortunate as our Chairman said in his video presentation, erm, to have such devoted, loyal and committed staff, and I think you can see that in the quality of the work which comes out of N C V O and the way in which it it moves forward, always, sort of, going towards er er taking with it the members. +So thank you very much indeed, and we now move on to, briefly to Earlier on our progr in our programme we received that Tony could not be with us today, but we are delighted to welcome in his place Sir Leonard I B M's Director of Personnel and Corporate Services. +Sir Leonard has had a distinguished with I B M which included being seconded by I B M to the National Health Service Management Board, first as Director of Personnel and then as Chairman of the Board. +He holds a number of directorships, is a member of learned institutes, an author, is a recipient of many awards and honours and hold many offices, including some as chairman in a wide range of organisations, including some in the voluntary sector and many concerned with education and training. +The title of his address to us today, Voluntary Organisations and the Private Sector, is a subject of enormous interest to this audience, and it seems particularly appropriate with the wide and distinguished experience of our speaker. +Sir Leonard. +Well, thank you very much, Chair, for that splendid introduction, I'm sure my mother would recognise me from er, what you said. +Good morning, ladies and gentlemen, can I just give you er, Tony apologies, er, unfortunately he has to be in Paris today, I know he'd prefer to be with you, but he has to be in Paris today, and since he's good at delegation, he's actually asked me to come along and and to talk to you. +Erm, I suppose I have one advantage, which is I know one or two people in the audience and I think I know a little bit about the nature of the audience, er, and you gathered why from er, the Chair's introduction. +But er, that's a great advantage when compared with the newly appointed British Ambassador in Washington, who having just arrived in Washington, er picked up the telephone and heard a voice at the other end, say, what do you want for Christmas, it was just before Christmas, what do you want for Christmas, and he thought hastily and, didn't want to be impolite or too greedy, so he said a small box of crystallised fruit, and put the telephone down, and a few momen a few moments later he put on the radio, and the announcer said, we've just conducted our normal review of the Ambassadors' wishes for Christmas, er, the the Ambassadors in Washington. +And the German Ambassador wants peace on earth and good will to all men, +and the French Ambassador wants the release of remaining hostages in Lebanon, and the British Ambassador wants a small box wants a small box of crystallised fruit. +So I have that advantage, that er, I do know a little bit about you. +Erm, and I also understand that this is the first time you've actually had someone from the private sector, er, whose been invited to er, address your A G M so, I'd like to thank you for the privilege, and for also for the opportunity to speak on a subject which I personally er, find of of great interest. +A politician once said. +Er, ask a fellow to speak on something that interests him, and you're sure to get a more interesting speech. +And, I'm about to test that. +As the role of er, business in the community is well at the top of personal agenda, in my job as I B M Personnel Director and Director of Corporate Affairs, the Corporate Affairs bit, er, is the piece I'm going to be talking about. +Erm, well I er, I hope that er, I can prove that politician right today. +Let me straight away, er, that it might be folly of me to assume that er, you know a great deal about I B M. By the way I B M stands for International Business Machines, not as, some people used to think, International Ballistic Missiles. +Erm, and I B M is is of course, very well known in the computer field. +I B M, U K, which celebrates its fortieth anniversary this year, has some sixteen thousand employees based in some fifty two locations throughout the United Kingdom, and they're working on all aspects of information technology, er, from software to silicon, from telecommunications to personal systems, and of course we form part of a very large company, I B M Corporation, which employs around three hundred and seventy thousand people across the world. +Now some of you here today might wonder, what a computer company has to do with the community. +Er, you may, quite understandably, regard businessmen like myself, with some suspicion. +How can people whose daily life involves this relentless pursuit of profit, possibly understand the motives of organisations like your own. +Organisations dedicated to providing support, to minority groups, to the disabled, to the under privileged, to the under achievers, or people who simply don't have the means to get the advice and support which they need. +Let me assure you straight away then, I see absolutely no conflict between having moral values and running a profit making business. +Ethics do have a place in the boardroom, and our employees, er employees in I B M, would expect them to have that place. +Companies are made up of hundred of individual citizens who may depend on the support services of the voluntary sector. +For instance, in the case of marriage guidance, bereavement counselling, advice on debt and so on . +They therefore expect the companies they work for to support the providers of those services, in some way, and they want to play their part too, in delivering those services, and I have quite a lot to say about that, later on. +But today I want to address three themes, that revolve around relationships. +First the relationship between public, private and voluntary sectors, which I do believe need to work more closely together. +Secondly, the relationships between the private sector and the voluntary sector, and lastly how we measure the success of these special relationships. +Well my view, and it's a view shared by many business leaders, is that for business to continue to be the wealth creator in our society, a healthy balanced community in which to operate is essential. +The private sector therefore, need the support of an educated, employed and motivated community as much as the community needs the support of industry and commerce, and when I'm asked whether, in these harsh economic times, business can still afford to support the community. +My reply is that we cannot afford not to do so. +Increasin increasing, it's not just a question of support, it's a committed partnership, and as the boundaries between public, private and voluntary sectors, become less rigid, these partnerships will continue to grow. +And I'm sure you need no reminding that during the past ten years, a new order has emerged and is emerging, which is changing the roles traditionally per performed by the three sectors. +For example, with the creation of hospital trusts, with the opting out of schools, with the contracting out of local government services. +I would certainly advocate the existence of more fora where the three sectors can come together to achieve mutual understanding and where c we can debate this new order, and make joint decisions about its future. +What about the relationships, specifically between the private and the voluntary sectors. +The U K's voluntary sector is large, its turnover is estimated at about seventeen billion. +Which incidentally makes it larger than agriculture. +The voluntary sector, therefore, has an enormous role to play, in all our lives, and investing in it, is essential for the long term future of commerce and industry, for without it, the cement would not, would not set, and cracks would appear throughout our society. +An investment, I repeat, investment, is the key word here. +As I said last year at the Whitbread and Company conference on employee volunteering. +We regard expenditure in the community as being in a par with expenditure in any other sphere of business activity, and subject to the same management disciplines. +It is investment like any other business investment, and it should be clear what it is intended to achieve, and how this is to be measured. +This is a view shared by about three hundred leading companies, including I B M, who belong to the per cent club. +Members of that club see private sector involvement in the community as an integral part of corporate life, which can improve both business itself and the relationship between business sector and the community as a whole. +Qualifications for the per cent club, which was launched by the Prince of Wales in nineteen eighty six, is the contribution of no less than half a per cent of pre-tax, U K profits, or one per cent of dividends to the community. +The aims of the per cent club were described by the Archbishop of Canterbury, at the clubs, at the clubs annual general meeting last week, as clear and refreshing. +He said, impressed by the growing co-operation between so many businesses and their local communities. +It is the wealth creators, he said, who open up the great possibilities for improvement in our society. +Community investment which without modesty, er, I can say is a phrase coined by I B M, is seen to be of strategic importance to many leading companies. +A major plank of our community investment strategy is to work in partnership with the voluntary sector, at both national and local levels, and forgive me if I use I B M to instrumental in setting up the north-east environmental initiative in partnership with the ground-work trust, business in the community and Gateshead Borough Council. +The initiative's aim is to encourage children in schools, to think about the environment, and involve producing an environmental teaching pack, running an environmental course for teachers, and developing a green software application for us on personal computer in schools. +Now let me talk a little bit about policies. +I B M, U K has long established policies for managing its corporate social responsibility, and as I said earlier, applies the same principles to this as to any other business activity. +Thus we've never considered it right to hand out cheques on a mere whim, deciding to sponsor a project, or support a charity because it happened to be the flavour of the month, or because a director had some some particular keen interest in it. +Last year we gave four point four million, either in kind, or in people's time, not including er, that that's secondees, or erm, in in money, er, and er, it sounds a lot of money, but you can easily get rid of that sum, when you're receiving so many requests. +So it's im particularly important to target it, and to make sure that there is some impact, as a result of that expenditure. +So our support has been subject to redefined guidelines, as you'd expect from any efficient organisation. +Recently, we've come to think er, even more strategically about the projects, and organisations we've chosen to support for of course, two reasons. +First, this more systematic approach, has left rather less room for doubt when making decisions about contributions, when one gets so many applications, and second, the recession has forced us to look more carefully at how potential new investments might meet company objectives as well as the needs of the community. +Notice it's not altruism, I'm arguing very clearly, as as self interest in in the activity. +I'm sure this strategic approach is appreciated and understood by organisations such as yourselves, who prefer the closer working relationship which follows this kind of of support. +What do we bring to this partnership for the voluntary sector. +Our most obvious support is through cash donations, but often it's much more than that. +We bring the time of our people, resources in kind, and skills and expertise. +Employment, impartment of the voluntary sector is one of the fo one of the four er, basic areas which we define for support er, against their background of er, of targeting. +Now by impartment, we mean, we mean, enabling, we mean helping the voluntary sector to be more ef effective and efficient in the use of its scarce resources. +So that is a very clear objective that we have, as one of our contributions. +We do this in several ways, including for example, our creative management skills course, which won a a national training award in nineteen eighty-eight, and which we make available, of course , to managers within the voluntary sector. +And in addition the I B M fund for com community computing, which was launched by John , the Minister of State at the Home Office earlier this year. +We've been running the management skills courses since nineteen eighty-six, and since then, more than seven hundred and fifty people, from groups such as yours, have taken a part, and we're about to launch a phase two in the next er, year or so. +It offers practical advice on team work, time and task management, leadership and delegation, the motivation of others and many other topics. +There can be no doubt that this course has heightened the management skills of some of those working in the voluntary sector, but an extra benefit is that it had widened the links between I B M and you, and widened the understanding between both of us. +The fund for community, computing I mentioned earlier, is aimed at helping voluntary and community organisations to use information technology more efficiently. +Many organisations, as I'm sure you are aware, buy computer or receive them as gifts, but they don't make full use of them because of the lack of money for the necessary training and consultancy. +The fund will provide grants for up to a thousand pounds for these organisations to spend on such training. +Another way in which we is by encouraging and facilitating employee volunteering. +I B M is just one of many companies, who now feel that lending employees rather than giving money, is a better way to work with a voluntary sector. +One of the main facilitators for community involvement is what has become known in I B M as the ten per cent scheme. +This enables our employees to use the equivalent of one afternoon a week during working hours, for approved community activities, always of course, subject to workload. +And many of employees are involved in voluntary groups, education and training, the arts and charities, in of course, their own spare time. +In fact our office in Edinburgh, last week, won a major U K award for employee volunteering. +The award was presented by the Prince of Wales at the Annual Meeting of the per cent club, which I've already mentioned, and it was during nineteen ninety, and it won the private sector small to medium size company, or companies subsidiary sector category. +Incidentally, much of its work was done in support of the Citizens' Advice Bureaux, erm, in which it helped develop er, computer applications, and also it had the courage to organise a major AIDS conference. +You will, I'm sure, some of you will be familiar with the drugs AIDS problem, which exists in Edinburgh. +By the way, the overall winner, so I don't make it too I B M, was of course, Body Shop International. +One of the reasons, I B M's Edinburgh office won the award, was the enthusiasm of the employees. +And this was also why L E A T,L E A T our Local Environment Action Teams, initiative, proved to be so outstanding. +L E A T was designed to encourage employees and their families to undertake voluntary work to improve the environment. +Employees were awarded sums of money between a hundred pounds and fifteen thousand pounds to tackle projects in partnership with national or local voluntary organisations. +When the scheme was announced the need for individual as well as corporate action was underlined by Tony . +In this area, and others we support, it's the individuals which a company's role in the community so well received. +Individual co + +Okay then, welcome to everyone, and er hopefully a few minutes but if it does +Yes, I realise +God of power and love, be with us during our meeting. +Look kindly on the tasks we have begun and assist us in our further undertakings. +Give us the wisdom, through the help of the Holy Spirit, to realize our aims as a pastoral council, to understand what is needed, to find a means of achieving our end, and to do so with sens sensitivity for the feelings and opinions of our fellow parishioners. +Guide us oh God with your love as we await the coming of your son and give us all grace to welcome him into our hearts as his mother welcomed him in Bethlehem, and we ask her help as we pray. +Hail Mary +Jesus, Holy Mary Mother of God, pray for us sinners . +Amen . +Thanks ever so much. +Is that anything important? +Well, it was somebody who wanted to know if her treasurer man was here? +And it was a young fellow who lives up Lane so I felt quite comfortable in saying I didn't think they had any young fellas who lived in Lane. +I haven't received any apologies. +I know is due to come. +She said to me earlier today she was coming. +Who else is missing then?? +And , yes. +The minutes of the last meeting, the twentieth, the nineteenth of October, which is quite a long time ago, did anyone have any particular comments? +There's no comments on the minutes? +. Fine, next item. +Just to get you into the mood perhaps, is it possible to have a report back on the visit to ? +Those who were down there. +haven't come prepared with, with any notes. +I did, you'll have to forgive me, I mean I think for the sake of those who were not at the meeting erm what we should really say is that actually said that he wanted to hear what kind of a parish we are so that he could attempt to match the, the incoming priest with you know the need of the parish. +That was actually what he said, and he did then go on to say that you know he is one of a group of people who I think they call themselves the appointments committee and that their job, where appointments are concerned, is crisis management. +So, I mean having said, you know, that he was interested to hear what kind of parish, I mean it was, it was obvious that it would also depend on who was available. +That was the general feeling but he did, he gave us about an hour and a half. +You know, we had a long time really just to kind of toss out . +Erm, we'd had a meeting prior to going so we had a fair idea of you know, we kind of got together and shared some thoughts before we, before we went. +I don't know if anyone wants to put anything into the pool of things that, points that we raised and er or a general feeling that they had after that meeting. +Did he have any questions about our parish, or did he just listen to what information was being given? +Yes, he certainly did ask questions about our parish. +He did ask questions yes +What? +Can you remember anything ? +What was important in his mind, that's the thing. +Mass attendance, erm, mentioned the hospital, he asked me what the hospital was like you know, whether it was acute or, or whatever erm +He noted there were the two schools? +Yes, he asked about the schools in the parish as well, and about the situation in and . +And how it really fitted together, if they fitted together. +But he did say there was a possibility that and could in time be made into a parish of their own. +Did he have any comments on our erm constitution, having seen it ? +He did, he just can you just go through it with a fine toothcomb if you wanted it proved . +He asked about parish organizations as well, didn't he? +Yes, erm +I think, well,that many questions. +I mean we, we did most of the talking I think really +Well he, he was +Sounds like you +He wanted we had to tell him you know basically. +And what he did was he wrote down quite a number of things. +Oh yes? +I mean, he had to once or twice correct the emphasis of what he was saying. +But erm, what +He did say that with the mass attendance at around about nine hundred that we would only get one priest +One priest, yes. +Ideally we would have two but, nine hundred practising, one priest. +But he said he was going to ask for two. +Yes. +The other thing we were tussling over was the erm the exact wording of collaborative ministry and the things +Whether it was on banding it down and he said we would be happy about that +Down yes and we said no, we wouldn't +that would be incorrect +we wouldn't be happy I think was what we +Did you ask him what the point of that was, was it a technicality ? +He said it was to prevent the priest being mixed up, it was an opportunity to a new priest to come in and sort of if it had become he could establish groups. +Not all parish councils are. +I was told that the last thing a parish priest coming in would want would be to take place before he +It would, he did say, any sensible priest wouldn't want them to stand out, I think those were the words he used, immediately anyway. +But in some parishes it er had been useful for them to stand out because the parish council was made up of people who had grown old with parish priests and er it was a chance to make a new start. +Particularly +I mean you do get parishes where the parish priest has been there for the last thirty years or something like that. +He's had +feels like it +I think what he really wanted was an outline of the parish. +What we were expecting and erm he wanted to know, to a large extent, how we felt about all the erm things that are going on in the parish. +I think as much as anything he was testing our mood on whether or not, whether we were going to be helpful or . +Really, I mean I think i cos he'd obviously done no preparation at all really for the meeting. +I doubt if he'd, I mean if he'd looked at the constitution it was only a constitution, it was oh yes, that's their constitution. +I mean he hadn't a clue what it, what was written in it. +No, I mean he didn't know we were an elected body, did he? +That's pretty basic, isn't it? +And he kept saying things like well, you will make them welcome, won't you? +He did actually, he made a comment about receiving the parish magazine and that th you know his awareness that the parish had been kept fully aware of the, the erm situation with the +you know, he was, he was kind of very conscious of that, that erm, you that the parish were aware and that we all understood the situation and he commented on the generosity of the , which he said not all religious orders have been so generous in the past. +Erm, but he also thought it was quite nice that they were, and good that they were, as generous, or have been as generous as they have. +Can I make some comment about the meeting because something arise from that meeting which was in er important information for me, namely that the diocese are anticipating that will remain to look after , I gather. +I mean, I think that came through the meeting. +I think they're probably grateful +Could I just raise one quick issue which I was going to mention under any other business but I'd like to get it out of the way, and that is er the departure. +Er, if staying, I'm trying to make arrangements for to stay locally and most likely will be leaving round about Easter, so when it comes to the departure it will be myself . +I would be very grateful if the departure could be as low key +I actually, I actually would request that at this stage, very early on, and quite seriously. +But I think, I think, most parishioners and certainly th everyone on the parish council are very aware of both my feelings and the and er clearly it will be important to mark it and I'm sure we would wish to work together in doing so. +Well, we thought a nice service of thanksgiving actually. +Thank you. +Very low key, very low key +Erm, but I think you, I mean I do actually seriously +Yes, alright +Yes, Father +put that forward and to get it out of the way . +Is there anything else we need to say about the ? +One thing that he did make very clear at the end was that if we thought of other things that he should know about, or it would be helpful for him to know about, we should contact him, so he's left it very open for us to have an ongoing contact which I thought . +I felt on the whole it was quite positive. +I mean obviously on the whole he can't guarantee what sort of priest we're going to get, but the whole meeting was quite positive. +Do you feel it will be appropriate for, to do a bit of a write up, about that,wh what can be said +Yes +Yes +Yes +as a follow up to the statement that was made on the evening, on the Sunday evening when you gave your explanation when made the point about the visit for a weekend away, or a day away, and to involve the parishioners. +And the announcement that we were having that visit. +Actually actually did go in the newsletter so the parish were aware that +in the newsletter +We did ask him about you know what arrangements were normal in his diocese for er handover . +He said that it is er a matter between the incoming and outgoing priests, so +He also interestingly asked us if we'd have any objections to another religious order. +quite what he wrote down at the end +Because he said, he wrote down something like you would be quite happy, happy to, to have another religious order here, which is not at all what had been said. +What had been said was we would be open to the poss I can't remember now the exact words he used, but +We wouldn't object. +we wouldn't object yes, it was very you know, the emphasis was very different and just as the you know the emphasis on, on the handover erm, he wrote down that we would be happy to stand down and in fact what we said was we +We would be prepared to. +we would like to continue and be prepared to serve and help the new parish priest. +However, we recognized you know that stand down. +Well, we didn't quite say that, but we don't really want to. +in order of to help him out +Mhm, he did actually say that he thought it was highly unlikely +Unlikely yes +but of course when religious orders come in they usually want to be in the inner city and, and wouldn't exactly qualify +We will serve the diocese and man in power as much as possible can if possible +Is, who would er who would write that, was it you yourself would you be happy to try and draft something? +It might be quite a difficult thing to draft. +It is. +Er, because clearly there are some points you wouldn't want to be too specific about. +Don't know if we could hold them to, to it. +On the other hand the point, for example, that one priest is, is a very distinct possibility, is something which could be expressed in some way I would have thought. +What about ? +I think it's quite er a possibility, or probability, that he will stay. +Erm, actually that was mentioned at the open meeting, wasn't it? +This will go in the parish magazine, will it? +Yes. +And the Bishop sees the parish magazine? +Yes. +So therefore it will give you the opportunity of destroying the +Well, if I draft something and then let look at it cos she made notes? +Yes, yes +Yes it was, we did stress that +I'm trying to think of a or two you see +Mhm +Or more +Can we then turn to the er reflection item with feedback on day. +I didn't see this as being primarily er a, a reflection on the day as such, although they haven't actually had the opportunity to sort of mull it over. +And I think such an opportunity might be helpful, to actually mull it over. +But I have a feeling it might be easier to mull it over at the next meeting. +Don't know whether people might be in agreement with that. +It's not a very mulling it over evening, is it, with this? +But the longer we leave it, the harder it will be to +Erm, can we not just toss some thoughts +Yes +around about it, like whether we liked it or not, whether he was, it was a good thing to have had it, we should have been better not to have had it with the situation at the time, you know, that kind of mulling over might be +I think it helped us to get to know her, apart from anything else. +I think it helped us to get to know one another better. +I know a lot of us have done terms for a long term, but to be together closely and observe each other reacting and doing things it gives a better idea of how people think, being in this together. +Yes. +Yes, I have to say I enjoyed it far more than I expected. +I actually enjoyed it. +I found it er inspiring in a way . +The only thing that I did find was that the, getting to grips with the issues er th was certainly as difficult, possibly more difficult, than I realized. +Erm, I felt very much that er without 's very skilful erm chairing of the last session that it would have been, it could have been, yes, very, I mean, a very inconclusive day. +I actually do think what we've got down in the third session is an enormous help from the point of view of our future review. +But er that was, that was very much er clutching at things that might have been at the last moment. +I certainly enjoyed it. +And so did I. +There was certainly a lot of pressure during the day +Yes. +Well we had to discuss on the way home in the car that it would be better to have parish council meetings during the day rather than the evening. +Because we were so much more awake and alert, I certainly was. +You all seem to be very alert in the evening +I don't know, not always +It helped not having the accompaniment. +I think it's louder, do you agree? +but not a lot +Well, they've soundproofed the room, we can turn it up now +jukebox in the hallway? +Take the fuse out so we can't hear it +Absolutely +Does anyone, would anyone offer a more critical appraisal of the day? +I think we were a bit woolly really +I think th the difficulty with that kind of day is that unless you've decided what the outcome's going to be before you start, you're not actually going together are you? +You know, so, I mean, in a way, it's more for a new parish council coming together erm you know, perhaps one of the, the most important things we have to learn is that it's, it is difficult to be very specific because you know we're not an action committee. +We are, we are about trying,u understanding each other, trying to understand the parish, understand what the parish is, is looking for. +Erm, and if we decide that we're going to just kind of, as a result of a day like that, do three things or something like that, you know, erm I'm not sure that that's helpful but +No, I think maybe +We should maybe have concentrated on getting to know each other and another time try to focus on things perhaps, I don't know, I just +I think the whole field is, is quite complex when you ponder on it. +I think there's a danger, if we keep surveying a wide range over a long term, you end up by not moving forward very quickly in a particular direction. +Now, I know it is sometimes bad to be very narrow in your outlook but I think it was a good idea to focus on , we consider as a pretty high priority and make as much progress as we can, without forgetting other things and try and teach ourselves to do something within a fairly short space of time. +Is that not a ? +Because when you do that then that encourages you to, oh yes, well we can, you know, that went quite well but we ought to have done that and that and then you immediately, you, you're eager to do other things and people get used to splitting up and tackling things in a focused way. +You were making a good point there. +That is what happens in sub-committees, isn't it? +We get down to the nitty-gritty there really. +Well, that's, yes and to some extent I think even the general meeting has to be fairly focused. +I mean I personally think that we've, that with that third session, looking at things, certain topics have come out +Yes +that we need to focus on, so we've highlighted what to move forward on those those issues. +Yes. +some of them are already actioned there +Like, like which +Well, we've also already had a report to the magazine. +Yes +Is this an appropriate time to erm ? +It might be, yes +Yes, okay. +Because I, I've received a letter erm from a parishioner, if I can find it, er which I have photocopied for everyone, which I think was a direct response to the fact that there was something in the magazine and perhaps a direct response to other meetings and to a general feeling as well. +Erm, because it might, it might be helpful you know to see how. +Sorry? +That's not our parish +That's +Is this the only response we've had to that article? +It's the only response I know of, yes, I don't know, had anybody heard? +Has anybody had a +There are general sort of comments that they don't really know what the parish council does and they're not very sure, erm, sort of it, it was mainly through the children's card thing, perhaps a little bit of money that their child, you know didn't me meet any recognition but wouldn't it have been nice to know exactly what the picture had been for, and sort of the nitty- gritty doesn't necessarily get filtered through. +You know, we're not direct enough in what we say is actually happening with parish council money. +Again, this is, it depends on the sort of person, doesn't it? +The sort of person who's ready to pick nits or the sort of person who's, what +I think erm it does tie in erm er what you've just said with one of the points that made at the P P C day, that the P P C now has no representatives' organizations or parish organizations. +I mean, there are parish organizations represented here but not a very large number +But not official +but they're not the representatives, and this does have some bearing I think on er remark with regard to erm where does the parish council P P C actually fit in? +One of the areas erm that I think we specifically try to fasten on are, is, is actually in the gaps. +We've said well let's not look at the parish organizations, specifically, because those are covering areas that we don't need to look at. +We're trying to look to the gaps, and I wonder if we are, as you suggest in the comments that you've received perhaps losing, we're not perhaps sufficiently direct in addressing the parish organizations which are after all the core of a parish. +I mean, those, if the members of the parish organizations are going to read what's in the parish magazine with the greatest interest +The, the point of the change in our constitution was actually to er move strictly away from all parish organizations having a right to representative here, and just a small number have elected . +I mean, we consciously have moved the constitution away from. +Basically, because it's felt that the parish council shouldn't be interfering with those organizations, that is, their operation +Yes +erm, and the direction of the parish council should be more in terms of defining strategy and so on. +I'm a bit worried at some of what is saying here erm, which seems to me like wanting to er create bureaucratic structure within a parish that, charts, positioning of everyone and they should know therefore, I just don't think is, that's my personal view, I don't think it's the right approach at all to a parish. +Yes, you've got to have a certain degree of structure in it and that happens I think through the parish council in a number of the key areas, but you have got to retain a degree of flexibility, otherwise you will just stifle initiative, you'll stifle growing issues that happen. +I mean, in the parish over the erm what five to ten years, the things that have grown are in their own , the , various other support groups and so on. +Now I'm not necessarily thinking that that would've happened if the parish council said, we will set up a group. +Yes +to do it don't necessarily think that that type of event happens +Yes, I, I, I, I'd agree. +I wonder if we should have that poster on sort of permanent display there to show the links that P P C have with different organizations, and also the sub-committees that people have brought in, because actually the C W L congress is a bit odd, as is actually on the sub-committee And I, on the P P C day you know actually said that the people at the had asked you what goes on at +They did ask me if they but erm I can im I can't imagine that hasn't told th the of the C W L , has she? +No? +Well, it doesn't sort of impinge on the Sunday School or isn't likely to +Cos she's very much involved in it and er it is a good system. +I used it in Germany. +Does it matter if they're not erm, if they don't know of each other 's existence? +Presumably if, if people can't get to Sunday School, you would hear about it and do something about it +No, to be honest, I wouldn't, I wouldn't say there was +No, I didn't mean there was +I think to be quite honest, if they're not interested enough to try to get to classes +I think +Yes well I, I certainly in this parish, I cannot see how people couldn't manage to get to classes +If they really wanted to +if they wanted to, yes. +And the s frankly er I think the same as er er the comment on where our talents lie. +If anybody has a talent, then they should offer it. +You can't go around pushing people to do things that they don't want to do. +If they offer then that's fine. +I'm afraid you'll find that a volunteer force is much better than a pressed one. +I think each group works on their own behalf, don't they, to encourage others to join their group? +Do you +Yes +think that person would, would be or not? +I'd be much more impressed by some positive suggestions of what we might do cos I th you know, months ago I was browbeaten outside church over a lot of similar issues and I said then, you know +I think the comment about the is quite extraordinary actually. +But nothing ever positive, nothing ever positive, is ever said. +It's always destructive and critical. +Couple of points though about this erm, how the parish council is recognized within the organization because it's important and that did our day as well and, I suppose in a way it's the one, one or so positive things out of this that we kind of latch on to, that the communication part is important and erm there may be others that feel the same way that we're not actually communicating what it is that we're doing, so, so maybe +And what they're meant to do for us. +we can look at involvement with the organizations. +I mean, you can do that in various ways, by inviting them all to come along, you know, have a Saturday down at , invite them to come along as representatives of the organizations and talk with the parish council +suggest a surgery +Whatever it might be. +When I first asked wh how many replies we'd had er I was quite pleased that we haven't had many because it, it shows that people read it, or may not have read it +those, those read it thought yes, this is, this is, I've got nothing to object to, nothing to er to write and complain about, or nothing to take issue with, so anyway I, I find that encouraging. +Do you think we ought to make our mission more erm, we ought to have a mission the parish council +Like why we're here? +Well, there's something similar to that on the poster, isn't there, that we do +Yes, but I think there is something to be said for communicating this in a different way. +I don't think, I mean, it's probably to say as we are ourselves struggling, for example with the issue of general welcoming. +I mean th I, I, I feel that's actually quite crucial +I actually think we shouldn't take too much notice of the letter. +I don't +No, no but I mean,th there're so many issues that we are trying to get to grips with we have to actually communicate it to people and say well this is +But it's how to do it that's the problem. +Yes +Yeah +Yeah +But I don't think we ought to be too dismayed about one letter like this. +I'd agree +Yeah, but I do think there are some +Yes, there are some issues there, yes +I think a point that comes over very much is the one about the structure and when I talk to people and listen to what they say, they're still in the very traditional +which I must say I certainly in that a parish council is it, and everybody else is linked in at lower levels. +Now this is people's traditional expectation and they still have it, whereas we're of the mind that instead of this er you've very cleverly got in this circle and the last day that I suddenly realized that we're all equal and moving around in a reasonably organized manner but still we're rather loose, whereas the traditional view is a parish councillor says it and everybody does the rest, with a few er renegades and revolutionaries at varying parts in your parish. +Now, we have to get over to people this changed idea, and it hasn't been got over because nobody that I've listened to, or talked to, knows, in fact people say, what does the parish council do? +I never hear anything about them. +So, first of all, the method of dealing with things in such a changed manner has to be put over to people and I think the links, which were traditional, which no longer apply, have to be and it must be a link going out in directions like this. +Now, you can have it by the written word and the spoken word, but I think the links we must continually have all the time are personal links, talking to people. +It's no good us saying oh well, nobody writes about that article, because a vast majority of people, that's all they know about it, if they've read that article at all, and not everybody reads the parish magazine. +You stand a better chance if you put something with the Sunday and even then that might not be completely enough to reach down to the crevices, but I think some method, and that's why I suggested surgeries actually, was that we have to talk regularly to people face to face and once you're in a room with people then it goes, doesn't it? +And we can find out all sorts of things. +We can find out far easier what is really required, and they can begin to realize that we're not just a set of photographs at back of church with names underneath, that we're actually person who are thinking of speaking . +The links are, to my mind, not close enough, and they're not the right type of thing for this changed situation which we've got. +That's the feelings I get. +Cos if people won't read the parish magazine, then I don't think they'll come along to the +Well, I I wouldn't subscribe to that. +I think because people are n sorry, sorry, people are notoriously hesitant at coming forward. +We're the exceptions. +I say that without hesitation. +We're willing to come forward and talk and try and do things. +The vast majority of people, if you've run any organization of any type, you will know very well people need leading, er and it's not a matter of brainwashing, it's explaining what is available, what are the possible goals. +Now people will listen to you and they'll have had, had their own personal goals but they feel not worthy of expressing it anyway because they think, well I've had this idea, I'm probably up the creek, and they never say anything. +But then they suddenly listen to what you say and they think, well that's funny, I was thinking about that when I was saying my prayers the other day. +I thought that too. +So I'm always reaching down to people, and I don't mean down as being inferior, reaching out to people is a better phrase, and I, I never give up about people wanting to partake. +If you're in an organization and you're leader, you, you have to encourage them. +With certain organizations you've got to get a whip out occasionally, but this is not that type of situation. +But i you have, I'm sure to go to people and not be at all surprised if some people you can never raise the enthusiasm, because that's human nature, and you accept human nature as it is, but if you're positive and encourage and lead without being coercive to a high degree, I think you get more responses. +I'm glad you've made reference actually to that picture of the circles because I, I erm I came up with that after we'd had the parish day and i you know, observing who was there on the parish day and then trying to see how, how we reach people and, and, and who were missing and how important was it that everybody should be there on parish day, and wasn't it that people who are involved should be there on parish day because that's a point at which erm you know parish council can meet those very people. +Erm, I would be happy, I mean, I purposely, I put some lines in just because I was thinking that way at the time, but I'd be very happy if other people would scribble it out, change it, throw it back at me, you know, I would like to see I suppose, just to see if we can erm, if that, because, because I have to say that although you know part of reading 's letter, erm, I feel it's, it, it feels destructive and it feels very critical. +That's right. +And it feel like it's telling us we're not, we're not doing anything right. +At the same time I think others, or the points she raises, erm, you know are good points and I don't think that we should just my personal feeling is that we shouldn't just shelve it. +I'm sure she's not the only person who feels like this. +I think I feel like it myself in fact. +A lot of the points she raises I would raise myself, I would see as areas that we, we can be tackling, but how we tackle them, you know, I, I, again, I would endorse what said erm, we'll go back to and say right, now, you've highlighted some issues, now, how do we do it in practice? +And we actually tackle it. +But I'm not sure that that is the right response. +I think that is one of the problems. +We are still feeling our way ourselves and +I think that's very important and I think it's, there's er actually, I have to say er I detect in 's letter because I am quite sure that a year ago she would have questioned the parish council's existence, and indeed she's being, erm, to my perception, highly critical of er the fact that the parish council has even dared to sort of taste the oxygen outside their own homes. +And, and I think what is actually happening at the moment in, in the parish is that there is some perception, there is a perception, that something is, that things are changing and that the parish council is of importance. +Did you say starting, you did say starting? +I did, but possibly too strong a word, but certainly I think erm, I think the struggle in the last couple of years with regard to the parish council, has been to, to actually introduce it to people's perception as of anything but importance. +And I, I actually tend to subscribe to the view, you know, that if we did have a surgery in it would be a non-event. +And certainly it would have been, it would have been in the past. +I think it would only become an event if parish councils do something which people took exception to and say that it's +But I mean +There're always people that'll criticize though, aren't there? +But there are ve but +Yes. +there are very few people that will actually come along and say, well done. +Yes. +But you don't expect that. +Well, no, no you don't expect it but that's a fact of life. +It's a fact of life, yes +One of the, one of the things that I mean the is cards. +Now these are, cards are typed right going on to the sub-committee. +Now if the parish council had said look, we're going to use these, people would actually say why should we, and I think that's a debate. +You know, it is something very specific. +But I do actually, I do actually think it's fair enough to say that the parish council can be, and should be, more clear, more direct in telling people what it's doing. +And I think it can afford to be now, because I don't, I don't agree with you . +The parish council has not been here as long as the parish. +It's not been +It's not been as far as the parish is concerned +Not ours, no. +But this is a traditional thing which is happening +Well, I traditionally in most Catholic parishes, the only person who's it, is the priest. +The priest yes +But where they've gone on to have parish councils, you've had the typical triangular structure and when I talk to people and listen to what they say, they, they don't express it to me as such, but the felling you get over is that's the sort of structure they're used to, because the structure of the church is built in anyway, and the whole structure of the church +This is only a reflection of larger areas of the church above, that's if I may use that phrase, which is happening. +Not necessarily the but certainly from below the top it's happening all over the world, it's, it's er upsetting everybody, they don't know whether they're coming or going. +It's certainly down to our level. +What of course you're saying here, it comes out here in 's letter, er, the structure, because er you said earlier that you realize now that we're looking, we're filling in the, in the gaps if you like of the local organizations. +Well, you see, here's a typical example here of the way is thinking she says, could there have been er could there not be more contact and cooperation er, if I am in a group providing music, which she is, there's every chance that the readers will have no knowledge of our intentions prior to our arriving in church, but why don't the music people tell ? +That was one of my thoughts, where's the cooperation in that? +Well, who's going to say that? +Where's the communication? +Well, somebody did say it +I thought it would be, you know it would only +Either, either, either, either the parish council can say it in any form that they wish, or they can instruct me to say it. +Well, +I think the point is +And if it's for the parish council, I'm very happy to do so. +Yeah, that's right. +But the point is that if, if musicians go to service, they know there's enough readers and if the musicians decide to take on part of that reading one service, surely it's only courtesy for the musicians to say to the readers, whose lists are published months in advance, terribly sorry but we're gonna do this this time, and do you mind stepping down? +I mean that's, that's only courtesy. +It's commonsense +Yeah +but I must admit it's up to each person that organizes it to say that, great, we don't need the collectors. +And somebody said to me at the last children's mass, thank you, you're the only one that tells us we're not needed. +This is the regular men who do the collecting. +So, yes, I think it sounds commonsense but +No, no +But it's not our job to people, is it? +No, I'm not +The men collect it and know that of the children doing it, you would think that they'd have noticed over the years, that at the end of each month it says, on the readers' list it says children and I think that +Some things are taken as read and they're not actually said. +I think it +I must say when I read that in 's letter, I didn't read that specific erm comment, I read something, something much much wider really, that, that really I felt that what she was saying was you know that when, when there is a group, then readers er musicians, everybody else reflect together and come together before they actually, you know, they don't all operate the same but they come together and they reflect together on what the, the theme is, or you know, what was the main point of the readings. +Erm I, I somehow felt that that's what she was feeling that there was something like that lacking. +Erm +Well, we recognized that two three years ago but it hasn't been filled yet +So we're aware that there is a gap, yes +Is it not something that erm the literature group coming out of the erm the course have begun to tackle, you know, the idea that there should be some kind of coordinating personal body or something that erm +er has agreed, as a result of those new meetings, to coordinate music, and that means again filling gaps. +Oh, I see. +Erm +But she's not a committee on her own is she? +She's not, no. +She's one person. +Yes, yes, but I mean one person can very often do things +Better than, yes +better than others +Anyway, we're going to talk about coordinating readers and musicians so they can double do it if they wish. +You know, as not +I see +It may well be that they're doing it, with er other ways of doing it and er that's, that's discussion, but I do actually think that there is sometimes something to be said, and I think a group can say it more easily than individual, is if you want something done, do it, but don't come along and complain. +You know, and I feel, I do feel very angry, I mean th th the family that she's referring to who can't, who have difficulty hav getting transport for Sunday morning, they're not parishioners, but are actually in the parish, and they know perfectly well that if they ask they will get transport, and indeed in the past they have asked, and they have got transport. +You know, I mean people play funny buggers here, and excuse my language +and I, I mean, we could all go along and say what we want and what our needs are but that's not what we're talking about. +That's not what parish councils about either, is it? +That's what a parish is about. +There are times when people are in need, and that's fine, but the problem in this parish is not the people in need not being supplied, the problem is that people are, are simply receiving what they wish to receive and not actually making very much contribution. +Now, we may well argue, we're supposed to encourage them, we've actually got to make them, create the conditions in which people are encouraged to come forward and take part. +how to get on to the parish council the other day so I thought was quite formative step yes +Yes +People are recognizing us +you did touch earlier on about welcoming which is at the forefront of my mind all the time. +Er, I mustn't be guilty of commercials but in the last council meeting of the night, again the subject came up of how we could welcome people coming to mass and this is nothing to do with a request council at all and er we ended up, and I think it's fair to say what we decided er here, that people would individually they didn't know approach them. +Er, I thought personally that was a bit too but I'm forever trying to organize +Well, no, it is a start. +did it a year ago +Yes +and it lasted about a week +I know not everybody thinks this is the, what welcoming is about, but be aware that somebody in the parish knows also of the problem and they themselves are trying to feel their way forward to er some s partial solution. +It's, it's just a thing I thought I'd mention here. +You know, this is what I would expect every group in the parish to do, to tackle areas where +I think it could be organized easily +Yes +And this may well be something which we should be saying to the priest +Yes, yes +to the parish, organization you know you are +You know, +I think it's very interesting th that you know that has raised this point that you know why couldn't the parish council come to us? +You know, because I think we as parish council would have thought that we were interfering if we suggested that we should go to observe somebody's group meeting. +You know, that's, that's something that we've been very careful about. +We've been very careful not to be seen to be interfering or for anybody to think that we were going to tell groups how they would run their groups, because the groups are fairly autonomous and they pre-existed parish councils er, but a you know this is almost a direct invitation and we could actually respond to this in terms of an invitation and ask other groups if they would be interested in our respon in our going to, to visit them, rather than a surgery where maybe we'd sit here and nobody would turn up. +Erm, you know, that we, that we've been invited to reach out and why not respond? +Yes, that that's a good way of doing it. +I think that's an excellent suggestion. +It is, yes. +And to er voice our own concerns which obviously coincide with parish organizations +So how do we, how do we tackle that? +Is that something that the logistics of it is worked out in and then but, but everybody takes part in it, the whole parish council somehow takes part in it? +Would anybody have er an objection to taking part in an activity? +I think , if we do, we would need to properly structure how we what our objective was, are we just explaining what parish council is about, offering to listen + +function engineer is responsible for issuing to the client. +That's, yeah. +Replaces urgent work. +Yeah. +That's er procedure D two stop three. +And that's the simplification is it? +Yeah. +Yeah. +Yeah. +Two two +It is. +It's, it's sort of following the demise of part of er Trevor's empire. +Thus making it even cheaper. +For to a smaller an empire. +I should use that word, that was used very loosely that word cheap. +What? +Cheap? +I mean I'm briefed +on that. +Mm. +Okay. +So the urgent work procedure has now been removed to make life easier. +D two +And to let the client know where the job lies within our organization. +Good. +Given a point of +Straight into a function and that function head will then s write to the client saying, I've got it. +My project coordinator is Mr X, and then we've got the point of contact established straight away. +There are quite a few fairly minor changes to the appointment contract procedure but I haven't, I don't pretend, intend briefing those because I think most people can read. +Right. +So they should be aware there, there are some. +Yeah. +Right? +Er J two stop zero. +Trainees training report file. +Yes. +Erm there is a requirement that all trainees and new starters within the group, who are having training reviews undertaken, will maintain a training file. +So they know where to find and we know where to find all their bits of reports and the like. +Their performance reports, training r reviews, schedule of objectives etcetera. +And that's J two stop zero. +E five stop one. +Contract documents and specifications for works and bridges. +E five stop one. +Sorry. +There is an X on it. +Works bridges and Q and Q S. +Erm there is now a standard pro forma for identifying liquidated damages. +The project engineer to agree with the client what the liquidem liquidated damages ought to be. +And there's a pro forma that goes through to the quantity surveyor's section. +P on it either. +Mhm. +Eh? +yours +Erm +got P on. +No. +Con H five stop two. +Contract variation orders. +Erm contract variation orders are to be signed by the project engineer, irrespective of value. +Er subject to him of course having the nec necessary financial authority from the project manager or the client. +There are +Mm. +arrangements in here that if it's in the middle of a possession and the project engineer cannot be contacted, then obviously the resident engineer can sign it. +Erm but obviously there's er a, a need, the need to advise the project engineer, and the project manager, erm following the possession. +Can I, can I raise a small point on that? +That is +Mm. +a number of my staff have repeatedly asked me the question, what is a project engineer? +And I've told them what a B E S one is and they said, why? +Why are works ones different then? +Why couldn't +They aren't. +M S ones be project engineers? +In works? +And yet in B E S they're only twos and threes? +Could be anybody. +Well. +Project engineers are +You've lost me. +T T O and S T O level. +Surely not. +But you would erm you would allow an S T O, to sign a V O of any value? +The only people who sign +Point, good point. +V Os are those who are delegated within the contract to do +Mm. +so. +Yes. +That's what it says though don't it? +. +And that's what it says. +The value of authority from the client. +Yeah. +So it will be in your letter of delegation +Yeah. +which brings up the main point and that is we have got to make sure that those people who are nominated or delegated within the terms of the contract, are people who have the knowledge and experience +Mhm. +Yeah. +to discharge +Mhm. +that duty. +Mhm. +Then there's, I, I, I'm the only person. +quite a long time now I begin to understand there are M S twos and threes are project engineers, and I +Not necessarily. +No. +Er +They can be. +That was certainly my understanding and certainly +No. +if that is not the case then I'm gonna have to change the consultation documents because +No. +It's terminology isn't it? +No. +Because, because the consultation +We've +documents clearly set out to the staff, what I thought was our collective understanding of the section engineer oblique project engineer relationship +Right. +that section engineers at M S four level er acted as project coordinators or looked after their own element of the +Yeah. +work, negotiated the er +The fee +the fees +Yeah. +and the remit with the client, and then delegated to, the work to a project engineer. +And the project engineers were M S twos on medium jobs, small jobs, and M S threes on larger jobs. +And they were supported by a pool of engineers and technicians at +Mm. +M S one and P N T created . +Yeah. +But why can't the engineer at M S one level be project engineer +Because his responsibilities are different. +in, in terms of +Well. +That's fine +your using a name. +Oh no. +He's responsible. +No. +Because within, within our, within our procedures and our quality systems, the word project engineer crops up quite a lot. +Project team +Yeah. +But it's, it's not defined as er an M S two or an M S three. +I mean take the example that Hugh is always using, is that if I wanted to knock a wall through, a hole through that wall and put a door in there with a link in it surely to goodness we +Right. +don't need an M S two. +If that's +Mm. +the case then can I suggest that we define within our quality systems, that project engineers will be M S twos or above, for check categories of zero or above, and that for jobs with a category of double zero +Oh no. +they can't be beneath +Very, making it very rigid. +Yes. +You see what our policy is M S two except b except by exception. +For instance erm we would give certainly the better M S ones the smaller jobs to project manage, but that has to be very carefully thought about. +Project engineer. +Project engineer. +That's right. +What happens if everybody wants to +panel view this +Now I would imagine if we had suggested +In broad terms +I would imagine that if we'd suggested that project engineering duties would beco +Could be done at M S one +At M M S one and S T O +Thank you. +We wouldn't have, we +levels the then +wouldn't have no M S threes. +then none of our M S threes +would have come back at M S three. +What concerns me is the project engineers are in close liaison with the client, and have a lot of procedures to go through that er S T Os and M S ones at design engineering level do not have to go through. +They do have a much greater responsibility. +And particularly I mean just signing the V Os, because if it's cocked up, the question's been asked of me. +You know. +If you have an S T O, in a sense if you don't define what the project engineer is, what grade he is, he can sign off unlimited amounts of money. +. +It doesn't seem right does it? +I it seems, well +No. +But the point t that Hughie makes is that y you allocate er y you, you make the project engineer someone who have trained, and, and that you know is capable of doing that job. +Yeah. +Well I can think of one M S one in our er office who I'd be quite erm quite happy with him doing all the project eng engineering duties except finance. +Because he, he just has you know a very slap happy er attitude towards finance, but from an engineering point of view you can trust him +Mm. +so this means you daren't give him anything now. +Well in that case I wouldn't put him on er on a job that was made out on site but I would keep him in the +T as far as the allocation of, of erm the project engineering responsibilities, that forms part of the quality plan. +That, that, that he is given a note as part of the quality plan saying, here you are son, you are now project engineer. +These are your duties. +You are responsible for that job and you are identified on the project quality plan check list as to what you will be doing and what other members of the team will be doing. +He couldn't live, live by it. +You know it d the first thought bloody hell. +If you don't want to use it don't use it. +S T O with unlimited signing power. +There's an anom anomaly here. +But if you don't want to use it don't +And anyway he can't, he can't actually spend, spend this money unless he's got +Oh yeah. +Oh yeah. +auth authority from the project manager. +But there may be, there may be +I think we're discussing two issues here. +Can we, can we bottom the V O +Yeah. +one as a start . +I don't see there's a problem with the V O one, because +It's +nobody nobody can issue V Os unless they're delegated to do so, in, in the letter that's signed by me. +I rely on you gentlemen +And, and they have got the permission of the project manager to spend that money. +Yeah. +Correct. +Yeah. +I rely on you gentlemen to make sure +Too right. +that the people who are delegated, are competent to discharge those duties. +Yeah. +An and I must admit that I wouldn't, I would not expect to see anybody delegated within the contract at less than M S one level. +Because I just don't think they i they're competent to do the duties of the engineer's representative, because you need a knowledge of the contract. +Tt. +Well. +There are some jobs that, that we get involved with are very very small +We've had John on +Yeah. +John 's been on jobs and he's er +Well. +He's been as the R E, which is reasonable to be fair. +Yeah. +So's Steve +We +as R E. +We +Delegated to issue site instructions? +Yes. +But not V Os? +Not V Os. +Well. +No. +Th the, the letter of delegation +Pardon? +is very specific because +Yes. +the contractor is very specific. +Yes. +But we need +The contract sorry is very specific. +I'm not being funny but we're nitpicking now at the difference between +Yeah. +site instructions and V Os. +No. +No. +Well. +No. +No. +We're not. +No. +We're not. +Site +Yeah. +instruction does not involve any er any a a an +Financial . +any financial commitment. +And it doesn't change the contract. +So I mean +B t t +The reason why, no, the reason why these, these +but they do. +procedures were written is because in the past we had that foggy situation +Mm. +Mm. +and I wanted to clarify that, and make sure that our procedures actually were back to back with contract procedure. +So I think in terms o of this particular erm procedure, we're okay. +Mm. +Where, where we're not okay is in the point that Jim has raised, the general point and that is, what do we mean, what do we d define as a project engineer? +So junior junior R Es then will not issue V Os. +Unless they're delegated t to do so within the contract and I rely on you to make sure that whoever is delegated to issue +What if they're,wh what if they're below M S two level? +No no. +No R E will issue a V O. +They might do if they're M S two I mean the project engineer +If it's the project engineer. +Yes. +Yeah. +Fine. +specifications here Trevor? +With regards to? +On one two or +Yeah. +three?does it use the word th the term +No. +project engineer? +Definitely +not in the erm er in the M S ones. +I it involves +Does in the two and threes. +about erm +Does in the two and threes. +Does in the two and threes. +Yes. +Cos senior in a lot +I mean th that's the title. +Senior project engineer and project engineer. +Yeah. +Cos that's, that's where my understanding was. +Oh. +So it's a different issue now. +That's the second issue that you've brought up. +It is. +Well. +I wanted to bottom that one because I think it's a fairly easy one to do. +Then, then go on to Jim's point of, come on lads. +What do you mean +by a project engineer? +Mm. +So that's okay. +And that's the, so let's put that to one side and let's, let's +debate +Yeah. +We'll start that with questioning +Jim's point. +my office. +Mm. +Mm. +Yeah. +There isn't a definition then within the procedures of what a project engineer's duties are? +Yeah. +The first book on the left there Dave by the big fat volume that's called +To, to the left of your, your omnibus. +That's it. +Ta. +Where? +Wha what do we want a project engineer to do? +I want him to do an M S two or three . +What do we want him to do? +Come on. +. +Manage that project. +Through from conception to completion. +Un unfortunately it raises the question of the project coordinator whose role +Mm. +Mm. +talk to you about you know ne next week +Mm. +because it's all rolled into the same thing. +Right. +I say it's +Shall we leave it till then? +responsibility. +Right. +Let, let us leave it till then because I mean otherwise we're gonna get bogged down in this and whe when we really are briefing procedures. +Yeah. +But you've raised a very valid point and it's one that we need to see through to the end. +I can s I can see +The role o of +I can see what you're driving at. +the role of a project engineer is defined in Q S P six. +Which Roger hasn't seen yet +Yeah the role +but he but it is the day to day d detailed development +of a project to meet the cost specification and timescale defined in the client's remit. +Undertake the requirements of the project quality plan. +Undertaking all design construction, installation to meet all necessary current standards, statutory requirements,a and the civil engineering design manual er safety manual. +In a broad sense. +Mhm. +Which seems alright. +Yeah. +L let us then debate, I mean you actually have a load of projects which are maybe two or three thousand pounds apiece +Mm. +where I presume you would just wanna hand that out to some guy and say get on with it. +And that guy may be an M S one. +The problem is a lot of those are not being managed properly by the M S ones, M S twos. +Right. +We will +Yeah. +Okay. +Let's debate that then when we get together. +Thanks for raising it Jim. +Fair point. +Have you read what +It's, it's important that we nail it down very very quickly because the clients' reports depend very much upon the input of the project engineer. +Project engineer. +The only, the, there is only the project engineer can get into the databases to put anything in, or, or their clerical support, to get anything into the general notes about that particular +Yeah. +project. +I think we're meeting early next week isn +Yeah. +Tuesday isn't it? +Tuesday +So we'll bottom that Tuesday. +Okay. +Could I briefly go back to liquidated damages, because there's nothing in the procedure, I think, that says what happens when you send that form to the client, he says, I haven't a clue. +What do you think? +Cos that's exactly what's gonna happen. +Because I've seen +Oh dear. +that form before and they will not know what to put on it or what they +You may be l well be right there. +Maybe to tell them what liquidated damages +They need leading by the hand gentlemen. +Can't we just put a clause +We need, we need, no. +They don't. +Organize everyone by us. +Perhaps we should set the course up. +Course up and . +Eh? +Absolutely I like that. +Yeah. +No. +It's very frustrating because I've never never known a client who knew what his losses were. +We'll run a course for project managers. +As Hugh, Hugh is indicating that th that we have got a degree of expertise and we should be offering that expertise to clients. +Well we can tell him how much we'd be charging them to . +No. +No. +No. +What we've got to do is say, look, within the terms of the contract +This is what . +this is what you have to do. +You have to make a genuine pre-estimate of your +losses +Mm. +so can we talk about what your losses are? +We w suggest that you have losses under the heading of er +Mm. +disruption to traffic, loss of revenue, so on and so forth +Mm. +and I think we have er a a part to play in that. +Mm. +What about my extra costs? +And your extra supervision costs. +No. +I was thinking about the client's extra costs. +Oh. +Then the gain +actually. +overrun by three weeks +the fact that we've still got our supervision +Yeah. +But, but we put that in. +Yeah. +But during +Not only that +Yeah. +But we, we should be prompting them. +course that we know about it. +Well there's the fact that he might have borrowed the money for a ten million pound project, and he can't have a use of it because it's named and he's paying interest +on that ten million pounds. +Extended plus services for diverted traffic and so on. +be discussed. +Yeah. +Yeah. +So what +Good. +it needs is it needs us to have an input with their project manager to evaluate them. +That's right. +A and the forms as it stands picks up most of the points that we've just raised. +Does it have a box for us to put our costs in? +Oh yeah. +It starts off with that. +Thank god for that +Th they're, they're, they're not our costs Terry. +They're his costs. +Yeah. +Mm. +I mean we charge him. +Correct. +He's the one that +No. +But +Correct. +Why? +And we can tell him how, how much we're gonna charge him but it's up to him or whatever. +I mean quite clearly with something like this, when we start using it, it's gonna throw up all sorts of +Yeah. +problems. +Mm. +We have, we have had that form kicking around for quite a long time and it's never really been +Right. +It's easier for +Well now is the time for everyone to be aware of it. +That's right. +We're now proceeding +Brendan and Joyce did a twenty five page memo. +Mm. +What on liquidated damages? +Next. +Shut up . +S safe, okay. +Procedure K zero stop one, safety related admin. +I'm making the point that man management procedures erm, sorry, safety instructions and information and safety information will not be issued via management procedures. +Management procedures w will relate, will only contain procedures relating to the admin of safety matters. +Yes. +Good. +Excellent +Go back to the clerical section +You, you'll, you were instrumental about +I've been fighting this b +that my friend. +I've been fighting this battle for four years and we've eventually got there. +Mm. +Good. +Good. +Next. +It was +Erm maintenance and use of portable electrical apparatus K nineteen stop one. +The safety one. +Er it talks about erm +Safety admin one. +Safety admin one. +The functions clerical section, section maintaining registers. +Business and planning manager will ensure a contract's in place for routine inspection. +Business, and business manager will ensure that inspection reports are forwarded to the function heads after inspections. +And there's talking about labelling of defective equipment and what have you. +Good. +And I've been ordered to . +Right. +Mhm. +By plant well will be by plant . +Right. +Erm M for mother four stop one, payment application by contractors. +Erm there are quite a few in, in this series which follow the same sort of thing is that er, all projects all jobs on site er will have a quantity surveyor from Dave 's section. +Erm and will +Eh? +Nominated. +to do all the post-contract measure work. +Nominated. +Come on. +Let's, what you're doing is you're winding them up Den. +I'm not. +I can't believe Dennis would be mischievous enough to wind anybody up on p on a subject that he's so disinterested in. +That's, that isn't +Yes. +Go on. +I've been told to change these procedures to. +just taken the knife out of your back. +Right. +The project Q S is responsible for agreeing all site measurements, normally attaining these personally. +However when specifically requested by the project Q S, the resident engineer or the project engineer may obtain this information. +A project Q S is responsible for agreeing all valuations and for processing all invoices for payment for physical work, and passing these to the client for payment. +So what's the change? +Because on many jobs certainly smaller jobs, er the resident engineer or the project engineer would +be doing the +And normally normally they will do that and in, in the future +Well +Yes it will. +they can say, yeah,th the project Q S is just gonna say, measure me all +That's right. +I haven't time to go and do that. +What I'm looking for, this is part of +I know +Sorry. +this is part of the +the spirit. +The reason this came about Dennis, is because some people were, were playing ducks and drakes. +And the spirit of the exercise is that we will work as a team, and the most cost-effective procedure will exist. +And in m in many cases the most cost-effective procedure will be for the lad on site, the R E or the assistant R E to measure, and provide the measure to the Q Ss who will put that forward and process that in the way they do now and send out a certificate. +And I don't see anything contentious about that. +Can I take it that if +I don't, I don't like how it is worded then, because I don't think you said that. +Sorry to +No. +It, it was worded that way because there are +It says the project Q S is responsible for agreeing all site measurements . +That's what it says. +Yes. +He is responsible for that. +He is. +And he may delegate that +He may delegate to +I agree with you but +and in many cases will delegate that. +He is also responsible for the valuation +He has raised it with the contractor. +It doesn't say that here. +It does. +But there's no . +The letter of delegation normally says that +It says, normally it says, normally obtaining them personally +The letter of delegation has always said that Q S will measure +Yeah. +Yeah. +Measure the works +re +In, in, in, in the past +words. +the resident engineer has been doing the measure and also agreeing the valuations. +Well I don't think +Now +what Hughie's saying is that that will be done +Th that responsibility +mutually +valuations because we've got this +Mm. +Perhaps you do. +which, which +Personally I don't think really there's a need for a great deal of site measurement. +I think, I think it should all be, you know, basically it should be done from +The offices. +because they've dug a big hole doesn't mean you measure the big hole. +It's all part of the measuring anyway. +You're paying for the hole they should have dug provided it was at least as big as they +In accordance with the and the er the +what do you call it? +Yeah well. +The +Preamble. +preamble. +Can I take it then, that these items will be clearly defined when the project coordinator discusses with the team quantity surveyor at the +Who does what. +Yes. +Who does what because +Yes. +I don't want any more s in instances where the quantity surveyor thinks he's got a certain fee that he's working to, only to find out later +Hear hear. +on that somebody's knocked it down by half and not told him. +Because that causes all sorts of problems on the report and, and bad blood all round. +Course it did +It's not what team work's +I mean I, no. +I would reiterate that my objective is a very simple one, and that is to give the client the most cost-effective service we can. +Er with this instruction, it will get picked up on the quality +Co in accordance +er check list. +Good. +Good. +Could I could I, could I ask that B E S be taken off the distribution codes. +We do not use quantity surveyors for that purpose and indeed the quantity surveyor is not geared up to do any measurement for us. +So you want that +The answer to that is +rewriting then? +No. +Because I think that there should be no reason why the Q S shouldn't provide you with that service in the same way as he provides anybody else Jim. +Unless there's +But he's, but he's not geared up to do it. +But you've got erm a Q S then. +We have. +I'm not too sure that means . +Well I think, I think bloody robots +we all were. +in there like. +electrical away isn't it? +Mis yeah. +Mister Metal. +That's wound the buggers up. +Metal Mickey. +really +Metal Mickey. +Well that's +really a bright spark. +You know. +Yeah. +What I'm +But erm +what I suggest is these procedures are, we briefly mentioned this this morning, are supposed to reflect the best practice of what we do now. +Yeah. +That is not what we do now. +That is actually saying to the Q S, you've now got authority to come in to B E S and effectively do what you do on the civil side. +And what I'm saying is he's certainly not geared up to undertake that task. +And that certainly hasn't +Jim? +been debated. +On, on, in many cases +Mm. +Go on. +I mean if I took your line, your, your logic and maybe I'm misinterpreting it, er we would not have changed anything when B E S came into, to our organization. +And one of the most significant changes I wanted to make, and I think we have made was that the, the letting of contracts and the vetting of contracts and so on would be done by our Q Ss, in the same way as it is for the civil work +Indeed. +for a very simple purpose and that is that it, it improves our internal control. +Yeah. +It puts an in a a almost er an independent view in there, of the costs and valuation of variations and so on. +Now I, I think perhaps you're worrying unduly, Jim in so far as, your, your men will continue to administer contracts in the way they do now. +The they still issue the certificate to the client, which is signed off price correct. +Yes. +For them to sign off price correct, they have got to have had a look at the measure. +Haven't they? +Well they don't. +That's just it. +If we're to be, if we end up being audited on that, then we will fail the audit because we do not do that. +That's what I'm saying. +That is supposed to say what we do and what I'm saying is +Yeah. +we don't do that. +I'm not saying we shouldn't do it I'm saying we don't do it. +Well I'll leave that for you to manage. +And, and procedures procedures should not say what we don't do. +I, I agree with you. +They should say what we do do. +Or . +Or what we ought to do. +Yes. +Oh no. +No. +No. +Ah! +If if we're not complying with the procedures that's a different +Well it, I mean if we go down that +a different ball game. +path er Jim then we're gonna have er five or six set different volumes of procedures. +Yes. +Because we all do things slightly different at present. +If that is necessary then that is of course what happened and indeed in many cases that is exactly what happened. +There is nothing wrong +You have a dif +with that. +But, but, but +you have a different quality system for different offices. +But Hughie is +Well you, you have to do in some cases . +Yes. +But Hughie is saying as far the works office is concerned, he wants to regularize the system with this procedure. +And as I understood you +Yeah. +again, you wanted the, the, to regularize the system with within the B E S office. +We well I do, unless that doesn't make sense. +Now I can't see why it doesn't make sense, but if Jim came to me and said, look Hugh, that's bloody silly. +I mean our objective is to give the, the client a good efficient cost-effective service, that doesn't meet those +objectives. +But D Dave, Dave, Dave could not handle, in B E S, what he handles on the civil side. +In what respect? +H he is not staffed up to do what +could quite easily ask you to do all the erm +Running around +the actual measure the site measurements, but the agreeing, the valuations, and the processing of the invoices, he does himself. +And that is w well within what this procedure says. +I mean he does the invoices now doesn't he? +Well I understood so. +Or the, the certification to the client. +Yes he does he does the certificate. +Yeah. +So really all it, all the, this would +involve them +doing would be to say, would you project engineers er or, or engineers collect the in information on site, provide it to the quantity surveyors so they can check it against the spirit of the contract, and make sure that er what's proposed to be certified they're happy with. +Well it doesn't say that though. +Yes. +It +Sorry. +It's +Let's +What I'm, what I'm saying is if, if you want to really stir people up, bring in a procedure within telling them what you're doing, and then imple implement it at a later date and people will say, this is not quality. +Hey Jim +You will +the reason why we're the reason why we're doing this now is is to +Right. +try and achieve that objective. +Mm. +Not t to drop it straight on them but to say. +look, this is one we're introducing this is the way we in in intend to use it. +Mm. +I mean there might be the odd situation, the big job, where the Q S would need to go and +Right. +get involved in the measures on some of your work. +Well he doesn't. +That's what I'm saying. +He hasn't done yet. +You can't have that, he doesn't. +Have a word with Dave and ask him himself +Dave Dave was a party to this s +D Dave, Dave wrote this +procedure. +did the change. +Well you may be certain he didn't consult with me. +Yeah. +And that's the point I'm making. +Mm. +These procedures should be manag you know part of management consultation, not part of the Dave writes it, if he like says, well that's what we'll do for B E S, and then, and then I'm told, oh, that's what we do for B E S, I tell staff, and that causes a great deal of unrest in staff. +Hey Jim why? +Why +back on him? +Jim. +Cos I haven't had an opportunity to do it to +Why should B E S be a different, a different situation from bridges or works? +Well in, in theory certainly probably there is no reason for it, but in practice, it hasn't happened yet this is the point. +It hasn't actually happened. +Yes. +You're, you're implementing a procedure here that doesn't exist, is what Jim's saying. +You're implementing a procedure +Within B E S. +which says you're gonna do this +Right? +Sorry. +Sorry. +No. +It doesn't say that. +This procedure should say you do this. +That's what we're doing at the moment. +Right. +he's quite right in saying +book is an instruction. +Yeah. +And Jim's +quite right in saying, it does not happen. +But it's not the first time that a procedure's +Finished. +come out early. +So you've implemented a procedure for wh which you haven't set up you haven't even looked at the resource information +but can be briefed +We are introducing a procedure. +Yes. +And in order to c come in and say +like that? +No. +why don't you do this? +And I could say well I, I've never done this. +I can't do this, and Q S is not geared up to do it. +What ? +And straight away we say, well this procedure, doesn't work. +Yeah. +But it's +Right. +Yeah. +come out, it's come out early. +Damn it all. +We had a procedure erm about senior project engineers, er about two years before we +We've gotta keep repeating that. +Er +does it? +put that into the bridge office in +Mhm. +intended . +Right. +The thing with this , the thing that puzzles me a bit er +Just because you booked that +on this, and I'll reiterate this, is the process that we go through as I understand it for introducing procedures, is that we take a diagonal slice through the organization er in other words there's a draft procedure produced. +That is sent round to people who will have been involved. +They have the opportunity to input, it is amended er taking account of, of the comments +Taking account of some of the comments. +It can never take account of all the comments. +Of course it can't. +It will always be compromise. +But by a very virtue of the draft going round and being commented on people are aware then +We don't see +. +Mm. +all the drafts +No. +Wh what wh where +going on. +that falls down Hugh, is that people assume because they've commented that, that when it comes out in its final version it'll reflect their particular comment. +They never get a feedback saying, thanks for those comments but I've those because, because I thought somebody else's +comments were more +a lot more slice . +No. +No. +Not not, not +It's just a modification from +Yeah. +the slices +L lots of the revisions are not sliced and certainly in, in cases like this where +Mm. +it is a er er a specific +Direct. +request or a direct request that something is changed, then it +is given to in this particular case the Dave s of the world or other function heads and told +I would still like to issue +that. +Er a and I think we issue it and then t in Jim's situation, erm I think what you tell your staff is that this, this has been issued, and we are gonna find a way of erm working it in your organization. +Or if it is impossible to do so then we will have to have a look. +Well surely it, it just means that in in Jim's organization +I, I don't see the problem. +that when specifically requested w will apply in +in ninety nine percent of the cases. +That will be reflected in the quality plan anyway. +So +Yeah. +where's +Yes. +the problem? +Mm. +Yeah. +I, I don't see a problem . +but when your project +coordinators talk to +In concept there should not be a problem +the erm +You might not have a problem +Q S +in four weeks time. +with Dave but at the moment if we're audited tomorrow +Well as I understand it, this is what's happening at +Well I still don't +present. +I don't, I still don't +No. +But +accept that. +at present effectively that +He agrees valuations. +Mm. +Mhm. +And he can delegate the site measurement to your staff. +And in most cases will do. +As long as it's a you do your +And he processes the paper. +And once you do a quality plan for that, that delegation . +anything to your section at the moment does he? +No. +It's the other way round. +Yes. +Yeah that's true. +For long enough I've said budget engineers run the job. +Yeah. +Where I mean our, invariably our in involvement is much greater than the Q S. +Naturally. +And many of my staff in s in not just but one or two others, see this as the tail wagging the dog if you like where somebody says, you will do so and so, or you know, I'm telling you you'll do this. +Now it's how you read that into that procedure. +That's the problem with it. +There's no problem I +I understand that. +mean that, you know, why? +Why should the Q S estimate all our work? +Mm. +The there is no real good reason +Why he shouldn't. +why he shouldn't other than the fact that keeping +In fact there's a +up to date. +There's a very good reason why he +Could he do that? +should. +Perhaps. +Is he doing that now? +No. +No. +No. +Not yet. +No. +But he does, he does +all yours. +I thought we had a +Yeah. +procedure that said they did it. +Aha. +We do. +Yeah. +B E S? +Well you told me +I mean come on it's the same ball game. +Yeah. +I mean I +It is the same ball game and, and as far as I, as far as I'm concerned it makes more sense +So why aren't the Q S +for +B E S work now? +And P Way work? +And P Way work cos that's what you've said it does and you, you're +We are doing. +I'm afraid I'm not helped much +We are doing. +I'm, I'm gonna call a halt to this here because without David here who +Right. +knows the detail we, all we're gonna do is enjoy the sound of our own voices. +I think. +So what I'm, what I propose, is that this goes out because I don't think it changes anything significantly. +Erm Jim you, you, you need to present it in a certain way to your staff, and er after you've considered that, if you don't feel it's workable then I think you need to talk to David and I. +Yeah. +Well I've already, for a number, a number of cases, spoken to Dave about it. +And he knows this can't be worked. +That's why +Well I +I'm rather surprised that it's, we're +Will it work? +still perpetuating this +Well alright then. +The other option +a and, and, and the S on the M as it were. +Yes. +Right. +The oth the other, the other option is for us to hold that. +because it was supposed to be briefed last +Mm. +month. +Well in that, in that case +when +I've seen, I've seen all this +Mm. +in that case when +It is ours. +Well we can't +We've got a +Right. +In that case Jim you say to your staff that you're gonna have a dialogue with Dave and myself, with a view to confirming how it will be implemented as far as your organization is concerned. +But surely +we can still issue it, we can still brief +This issue +that issue? +Of course you can. +Yes. +Well. +It is +work +It's been issued Roger. +I think, I, I personally, I think everyone's got to work to it until they find it doesn't work. +Ca can't you just, can't Jim just brief his staff, but er as far as that's concerned w he takes it that the Q S has asked him to do all the site measurement er and that they will then produce the certification +Mm. +based on that? +Yeah. +The +I +only re yes by all means +our project quality plan check list reflects that. +. +Naturally your +Mm. +your way out is to get +D Dave to write a letter, saying for all projects I wish him to do +Y no. +No. +No. +Terry, Terry there's no point. +All all that, all that +That is stupid. +All that Jim's trying to do +the reason why +Is to change +I, I don't mean that in a disrespectful way. +No. +No. +I know but +It, it, it, it is stupid in, in so far as the more sens if we were gonna do that, all you'd do is you'd write +the procedures in a different way. +Yeah. +The procedures +were written in this way, because erm there was a move from a certain part of the organization to exclude the Q Ss from elements of work on an unreasonable to an unreasonable extent. +Now if we work as a team and we work very sensibly and reasonably, it may wo may well be that the most sensible way of working is for the project engineer to decide who's gonna do the site measure. +But at the end of the day these guys sign off price correct. +These guys therefore must have a facility of ensuring that the price is correct, from an internal control point of view I want them to be involved in certifying that the price is correct. +That is how we came to the conclusion that they should be +I, I, I I certainly think there's a great deal of sense in it all. +But we don't even measure yet . +I, I've yet, I've got a, a major job on my hands to reeducate people and bring in systems for much more accurate measurement of our work. +It's a very difficult job to measure is M and E. +Mm. +Well a lot of them are just +because +lump sums aren't they? +Well I mean a lot of it can't be measured you know? +Mm. +Mm. +Hundreds of miles of, of cables +Cables +on a site +Trunking +for example. +Yeah. +You know we we are not geared +S s +up to measure yet properly. +And we need to be. +Right. +So I'm saying we're wa way off what the procedures are currently saying. +A and all I'm saying is that and I rest my case +Mm. +is that +If we came to be audited +procedures should be what is happening, not what our aspirations are. +No. +I'm sorry. +Particularly when they're long way . +No. +But, but when you're measuring something +I don't want otherwise you finish up with five separate er management procedures . +But also is it necessary. +Jim +So we can make +let's issue that. +Because +You, David and I need to sort out what we need to do to implement it +Yeah. +and we will then implement it. +For you. +We've also gotta recognize clearly Dennis that civils and M and E cannot be stereotyped they are very very different engineering . +I'm s not suggesting they could. +And some management procedures cannot work very well in M and E as they can in civils. +Not because +Mm. +you know we don't want to in, in, in the civils team or what have you. +Indeed it works very well. +But in some cases some procedures cannot be worked on M and E +Yeah. +engineering. +They've got totally different algorithms. +Well it is supposed to be talking about managing the system and not d not taking people's e professional expertise away from them. +I mean but if +Yes. +if we are gonna have +It is a problem. +procedures which are, don't quite fit you, then I think what we ought to be looking for is a certain amount of common ground between your procedure and our procedure, so there is not something, you're doing something completely different to the way the rest of us are doing it. +No. +I totally agree with you. +It's gotta be married together. +Totally agree with you. +cannot stereotype every function, under a management procedure. +It just cannot work every time. +Right. +The on the, the, the, the procedures should be flexible er written in such a flexible way +Yeah. +that those idiosyncrasies of the different sections can be accommodated. +Th they should reflect the best practice shouldn't they? +Yes. +The best practice in, sometimes in M and E is, is quite different from the best practice in the +Mm. +civils. +Right. +Le okay. +We can talk genera generalities till the, the cows come home. +I believe that, that that procedure could apply to you the same as it can to Roger and Terry +Yeah. +and Dennis and Alan. +Er and if, if y if there is a resource problem then you David and I need to address that +Mm. +erm and find a solution. +If when we address it we find that th the procedure is inappropriate, then we should change the procedure. +I agree with you . +Mm? +Yeah. +Okay? +Er D two stop three, receipt of appointment contracts. +Erm what we're trying to do here is to get the clerical sections more involved in the projects, and in passing the paper backwards and forwards. +Er and we're identifying that the clerical sections are required to do a certain number of things when the project arrives, like erm recording the project in the index book, creating a correspondence file, creating project admin wallets, and the like. +So it's sort of er three things we're trying to do there. +What, what was the reference of the urgent work one? +I, I've got that down as D two point three +Was it three point two? +Mm. +I've got that down as tw D D two point three as well. +Yeah. +Very good. +Mm. +Mm. +I wouldn't have spotted that. +Aren't you observant. +You're absolutely bloody right aren't you? +Got two D two point threes? +Mm. +Yeah. +But we seem to have, right, I'll, I'll take that point back. +Okay. +I'm sorry I shall have to fill in the noncompliance or a quick-fix +report Dennis. +If you if you would please Trevor. +Yes. +That's the system. +Mm. +You fell for that Trevor. +I'm sorry I haven't got one with me. +Right. +Right. +Well +And +I'll just plug that up that. +We'll expect one from +you then? +I'll tell Trudy's +So it's not D is it D two point three or not? +I'll, I'll have to check with her another time. +Right. +Okay. +Yes. +Apparently we've got a mistake on the back of that form, that it referred to a noncompliance report, on the back, which is referring to the front but the front was called a quick-fix report +you see? +So I said, should I fill in a quick-fix report or a noncompliance report, to say that the quick-fix form, or is it a noncompliance report is wrong. +Right. +We'll get there. +Erm +He said I could leave it with him and he'd sort it out. +there have er +first mistake . +there have been some fairly er minor alterations to the procedures concerning contract admin wallets er and the various client reports, er but Hugh did ask me to raise them at this meeting, er to remind people of the need to er complete client reports. +Correct. +And I've rai I raised it this morning. +Right. +And erm in the context of Regional Railways +Fine. +wanting them from us. +Yeah. +But I must say that we're using these client reports and managers within each section +I know you are. +the only one who is. +are finding them extremely useful +Mm. +in keeping an idea of where the jobs are, +Yeah. +and the comments I'm getting back from the er the clients are very very favourable. +Right. +They do find them extremely helpful. +Have you run off +C +any interim report from t the computer yet? +No cos I wasn't too sure if it was available you telling me it is available. +A as I said this morning t to the management team it is available. +The only problem is as a one-off exercise on +er existing jobs. +We will have to put in er a summary of the existing remit. +Including +Right. +all the variations and what not. +And that's something that Mike and Ken will help dig the historical contracts out and, and suggest er a remit. +Erm b cos, cos he, it prints a remit back out out the client . +But it, it, it's ready +When, when are we likely to, to have the contract reports available? +The Q S +the physical works +The physical works. +Yeah. +We're gonna start specifying that now and Brian will, will er +Right. +will start to, to, to work that up. +But of course that can become quite a complex thing depending on how much we want to sort of use it to produce certificates and things like that. +Right. +So that's gonna incorporate the Q S cost report as well as the physical works is it? +Yes. +Mm. +Yes. +A and that's, that's gonna be quite a complex erm +Right. +thing to specify. +As it's a p it's a pound to a penny +Mm. +that, what we're doing at the moment, we won't want to b put it all in this system +Fine. +because it will be very complex. +If you want to, if you start building a system that's gonna record every variation that's issued to the client and +Make it simple. +print it all back again. +M see if we can make it +Yeah. +fairly simple. +Could I just say at this point, this, this is one area where I would envisage us looking critically at what we're doing and, and, and, and altering things quite significantly over the next six months. +Keep it simple and build up on it +Beca +if we need to rather +Yeah. +than go the other way. +Mainly because we're doing, we're trying to read the client's mind at the moment. +And w we we're putting together what we think the client wants. +What I'm looking for is feedback from the clients which say, yeah, these reports are alright as far as they go but really I don't want all that information or I want this information. +Or +And I would hope that we, we we enter into that with th that spirit and +Mm. +we're prepared to look at the the client reports and change them so that they become as good as we, we can get them. +Yeah. +Is there anything within these +It is the first step. +for the prediction of fees? +I mean we've just +Yes. +got something back from Intercity on the P S work where they're wa wishing us to predict to certain date what we're gonna be spending over the next six months. +Nine months. +the football ? +Yeah. +Yeah. +Well +Regional railways have asked for that as well. +Have they? +Yes. +Erm that that +Well Dennis er Roger's been doing for it for Leeds North West haven't you? +He has. +Yeah. +But he's been doing it manually haven't you Rog? +Yeah. +Yeah. +Be be because I don't think you can trust the forecast reports from DOPACS. +I think y yo you could blip from month to month er, er as a priority slipped in or changed, or a person slipped out or, or somebody forgot to zero something or y +It's too fragile isn't it? +It's far too fragile. +Mm. +It it's there for us to, to use as a, as a sore thumb exercise to ask questions but, but to actually do anything er, er as critical as saying, we're gonna spend twelve thousand pounds next period and eleven thousand pound the period after and fourteen thousand the period after, er I don't think that's +computer system's tying your hands behind your back. +Yes. +Yeah. +Yes. +So, so really +we're gonna have to have a manual involvement or override there by the project coordinator to, to, to +Well if, if you remember we, we agreed with Keith he would have a think that and a talk to +Yeah. +Roy er Roy +You'd remind him about it Hugh. +Yeah. +But what I'm gonna suggest is that again we go back to the client, and say basically, this is what we think we can provide is that good enough? +Mm. +This is what you want. +If we give you that we can give you it in a certain way, but it is not necessarily meaningful. +Mhm. +If we do this it will be a lot more meaningful. +Is that acceptable? +Yeah. +One point +Fine. +that occurred to me where we could +perhaps give them some flexibility, is that we could say, if that's not acceptable to you, we will delay invoicing. +Cos now we don't have to pay interest on our fees,i if, if, if a jam's spread over six months a a a and it might risk and slip to nine months, we might do better to offer to jam spread it over nine months and only invoice for part of the money. +Mm. +Don't like the sound of that. +Er +the project engineer sits down and manually, let's be honest. +No. +Cos he's gonna just divide it by the number and it's it's +It's it's a very minor part of the operation. +Mm. +I think you've got a little bit careful with lots of our jobs which have got +very very small fees attached to them. +Yeah. +Yes. +which +It's, it's hardly worth doing. +at the present time we're saying to on the monthly report we're saying to the client, we've spent three thousand out of five thousand, and their anticipated final cost is going to be five thousand. +Yeah. +And i he knows when we're actually gonna finish the job and therefore +Mm. +he can almost do that sum himself. +Yes. +I agree. +Er er I think on a bigger job i it it's perhaps a different story. +The trouble is Dennis a lot of our +little jobs. +a lot of our clients +But on a bigger job you can, you can put the resource in can't you? +Yeah. +But a lot of our client's finance sections, don't see the difference between a big and a little job they see some pigeon holes in their spreadsheet and they want to put something in there. +Anything. +And th they, they've got this sort of +But this is where we need to talk to the client +Yes. +Of course they are. +isn't it? +J j just agree with client he might, might be prepared to accept on a quarterly basis +Yeah. +you know? +I mean we don't necessarily have to give him it every month. +One could argue +Yeah. +if we're not careful we'll be causing him work. +Oh. +know what they want half of them anyway when they're +Ah. +Let us halt it there. +the customers. +Yeah. +As er I said before. +Let us sit down, Trev, and see what is sensible +for us to provide them with. +Go and talk to them and say look, this is what we can provide to you. +It will be meaningful. +Is that good enough? +And the chances are they'll say, bloody hell, that's marvellous. +Because what they're getting now is nothing. +Mm. +Well +And I'll tell you what, what they're getting from us is infinitely better than they're getting from anybody else. +You see even from Leeds North West the outside party job and the P T pay monthly, so it's important that the client knows what he's gonna be facing. +But what we do is we estimate three months +Mm. +and divide by three. +Yeah. +Then you get an average, +Not bad. +you know, and that's, that's the way +What's that mean? +Mm? +No. +I think's it's quite generous +Don't be mean . +actually. +Next one Den. +Well. +There aren't any more. +Ther there have been quite a few that have come out recently which I haven't briefed. +Some of them are fairly minor and it's to read them. +Others which are perhaps a little bit of er a change from what we've been used to doing, +Mm. +are currently being revised yet again. +So I'll pick them up at the next brief. +Right. +I think an hour of this is about enough isn't it? +Den that was great. +I mean I know there's been a lot of debate and I know that er you may feel it's been a bit of a waste of time +but the fact that there's been so much debate +If, if, if you say, Mary had a little lamb +Mary had a +it will go down in the Oxford Dictionary or something. +Right. +We've got that out the way. +Accidents on site. +Bridge office report. +Fifteen four ninety three. +Yeah. +Right. +You've got it? +Yeah. +We should all have received a report from Roger about one or two accidents that have occurred on sites. +One, both were dumpers I think weren't they? +I haven't seen that. +Haven't you? +Team brief items here we are. +There we are. +Haven't you? +Tt, tt, tt, tt, tt, tt +They were sent down on time I think weren't they? +You did. +It was a very good report. +Oh. +Well. +Just cos they came down doesn't make the bit of +Here we are. +It was dated the fifteenth of April nineteen ninety three. +Erm and erm one was at Norfolk Park viaduct. +A mobile access platform tipped over, and a steel erector was injured during its recovery. +We briefly mentioned that one last time if you remember. +He had his head jammed or something +Yeah. +Mm. +I it shot up in the air +Yeah. +You mentioned +The man basket +Yeah. +shot upwards and a man's head smashed on the steel girder. +The helmet saved his life. +So. +I think that's worth briefing. +Erm +Briefed it last time. +Yeah. +Right? +Okay. +We don't need to do it this time. +We didn't have the facts you see last time. +Written down. +It was al it was all facts +verbally. +Yeah. +Next one is erm on Bridge three O six eight A, Reford. +A dumper driver collided with a, a rapid metal development soldier and that's some p part of the temporary works. +Striking +Jumbo scaffolding. +strike, that's right, Jumbo scaffolding,dr striking the driver on the leg. +Okay? +The other one on the same site was a driver, a dumper driver, a different one I hasten to add +collided with the existing structure, crushing his chest against the steering wel wheel. +And I'm +Why? +not sure +Makes you wonder doesn't it? +I will say that. +It, it, perhaps there's something wrong with the dumper. +Was it +Doesn't it say whether it's the same dumper? +Was it the same dumper? +Yeah. +No. +It isn't. +what are the recommendations? +What are the report, what, what's in clauses what used to be thirty seven and thirty eight? +Recommended course of action and stuff like that. +We're not +That's a good question Terry. +Were these dumper drivers certificated? +Why it happened? +I mean +I've of watching brief jobs for which we are not responsible. +Oh. +It's nowt to do with us then isn't it? +Well. +I'm I mean +I'm not being facetious but what is the bloody point +No. +It's s +in telling us +I don't know why you're clogging our meetings up with somebody else's accidents. +Because I'm supposed to report all accidents +Yeah. +to here. +Yes. +He is. +It's it's my +Mm. +fault. +I should +Because +not have put them on here without considering +what you said there Mr . +Yes. +Thank you. +Erm quite a valid point. +The, unless we want to brief to our staff the potential hazards in er +Mm. +Well. +the use of dumpers on er sites. +I think we should. +There are two points that I, you would be looking at normally if you were investigating it. +One would be +Crippled him. +were the, were th were the dumpers in good working order and had +Yeah. +they been serviced properly? +Which is something which happens which is done through R Es. +And the other one is did the d what sort of certification did the drivers have? +Yeah. +Even if it was only a car driver's license. +Mm. +And did we er +A a and +subject them to a drugs and alcohol test +Mm. +afterwards. +Oh ho +A and was the er was their method of operating the dumper in accordance with the site safety plan? +Or was he driving it backwards? +Yes. +or whatever. +Yeah. +I've seen dumpers driven over +Upside-down maybe. +two bits of sheet piling laid over a ditch and things. +Right. +Good. +Thank you for those all the same Roger despite what was said. +D do you want a little one from me then? +Yes. +That that near miss thing at erm Dewsbury. +Oh. +Yes. +Please. +This is where there wasn't an accident, thank God, but we did find +out er we had nobody on site at the time. +Work had been planned to be carried out during the possession on a Saturday night to carry out some pointing +Ha we've had this one. +only +We haven't briefed it. +We haven't briefed it. +Did we not brief it last month? +No. +We haven't briefed +No. +We discussed it. +We did it at the safety meeting. +One which +Yeah. +Erm work was organized during to Saturday night during the possession which included people standing in the four-foot i in the tracks. +And for one reason or another the subcontractor bowled up on site on the Saturday afternoon and decided to do it then. +And he set up his own system of work using wal er er lookouts etcetera using er walkie-talkie radios and +staff exposed themselves to danger by standing in the four-foot. +His staff? +his staff. +Yeah. +There was nobody else's staff around at the time. +It's likely we will ban the contractor for three months from, at least three months, from doing the work +Mm. +although h he took a very professional erm attitude in dealing with the inquiry afterwards. +And didn't hide behind erm didn't try to make any excuses. +He said that it had been done wrong. +He's actually sacked his own foreman, the main contractor cos the main, the foreman turned up on site and this I think is one of the lessons to be learnt, is that foreman turned up on site and saw what was happening +and didn't stop it. +Mm. +And so condoned what was going on. +Mm. +And it's the major contractor. +Er may as well tell you i it's +So possession had already been arranged? +For the night. +The April the ninth. +For the night. +Yeah. +Yeah. +But they did it. +Mm. +Yeah. +That's the only reason we found out, is our supervisor turned up to take possession, and the contractor's guy said, there's no point, we've done it. +So. +we've actually found it. +Could have been an inquiry into a death. +Quite easily. +Er yeah. +Thank you for that Terry +It was at Dewsbury? +Dewsbury station. +Yeah. +I think the message is there that er we took a dim view of it and we have now +Yeah. +removed them from our approved list for a, a period. +Erm to show how serious we consider +Mm. +And the subbie by the way who did the work +the incident to be. +we're banning him for further and I'm gonna +Whatever. +saying, ban him for life. +again. +Yeah. +Good. +. +What was his name? +I'll let you know. +In fact I'll let you have a copy of what I've got this +Yeah. +P Pa Pete I think. +That's that's where we're likely to drop the clanger. +Pete . +Yeah. +. +Cos he might +Ah. +But Pete might just come out in his wife's name next week +Mm. +and start trading. +You've got no idea. +This subcontractor has worked for for a number of years. +So. +It's not a fly by night firm. +No. +Yes. +Cos they'd be in . +Well. +He'd just +Good. +Job done. +go to the wedding but +Yeah. +That's what's probable. +Oh my God +Alright. +Okay let's have a look. +Right? +Next one. +I'm gonna go into the erm the Irish route improvements thing we talked about this morning. +Which Norm that. +Yeah. +I know about that. +Okay. +Right. +Potential work. +Erm Chris 's visit on the eleventh of June, I think we briefed last time? +Yeah. +Yeah. +Er I think it's just worth mentioning again that it's still on and er I, I think er it is really more important than ever now for us to impress on Chris what good work we do because er of the changing situation within the industry. +And the more people that know what good work we do the better. +Provision of photographic services. +Over to you my friend. +Oh. +Provision of photographic services? +Right. +Erm just to say that, just to confirm the note sent round that erm we will only pay for any photographic services by Intercity East Coast if it has been procured using a task request form in accordance with the same way we procure any other internal B R er service. +Now. +Surely if all we want is prints off existing things all you need do is a request with a DOPACS number? +Yeah. +Surely not you know fill in a task form in for print off a couple of negs. +Is this the external +Yes. +request request for external +Mm? +services? +Well. +B b w w why? +Why can't you just use a task request form that says. +Please p +Well. +I mean +please provide +Prints off the following negative numbers +four number eight by eight prints off these t off, off negative numbers so and so. +Splendid. +Are you gonna write +And put the DOPACS number on. +You're gonna on something. +Yeah. +Copy it to Andrew and then Andrew knows when the I B I S invoice comes forward that it's something to be +Then he'll sign it off. +paid for. +Because we've got thousands of I B I S invoices that come to us that are not for us. +And, and unless we've actually got an i er a request to back it +up +Okay. +Good. +Good. +You're pointing +a and it's come from Peter +Oh. +Will you stop being . +You've got to do something wrong +It's come from Peter +Mm. +they will not, they, they want to be erm procured in a structured way, such that they know they're gonna get paid. +Mm. +Right. +That's it. +I have, unfortunately have some view forms and it doesn't look as though we've got a an overhead projector. +What a shame. +We have. +It's in the Permanent Way office's secure room. +No. +I mean in here. +You . +But you never told me to bring it down. +No. +But we could send for it. +If +Oh. +No. +No. +No. +Let's not bother. +Alright. +I'll, I'll quickly run through. +What it is it's the Intercity core brief +Oh! +That's why I +I've seen it. +We've had it, a copy of it +Have you got a copy of this? +Yeah. +Yeah. +Good. +Good, good, good, good, good. +Have we? +Yeah. +What's it about? +Does it tell us who's gonna own this +It gives us feedback +this line? +on the core nine brief +Aargh. +It gives us an update on privatization reorganization most of which has appeared +Anything? +in Railnews. +Right. +And it gives us a er tt details of the current Intercity marketing strategy which is again +Not interested in that either. +Yeah. +We, we have +Good. +That's right. +And get a green ticket . +So. +They're encouraging people to drive their bloody cars +Yeah. +Burn more fuel and just travel on a train. +Extra fuel +Environmental . +Yeah. +It is. +Next time any other business +Right. +So. +Hello Den. +I've I've just come back on that D two stop three. +No. +Sorry. +Yes. +Please do Den. +Right. +The, the D two stop three the work of an +Ah. +urgent nature +Yeah. +erm that was actually issued some time ago but wasn't briefed. +But it was quite a significant change that we were +Oh. +So we d we +D seven was er er work on emergent nature +Yeah. +Indeed. +No. +It's been put through as the procedures. +Yes. +Cos people +D seven was the acknowledgement +So. +So that was to say that we'd w +Yeah. +withdrawn D two point three. +Yeah. +And now you've reused it somewhere else? +And erm and subsequently we've actually withdrawn +Withdrawn +this particular D two stroke three. +So if you look in your manual you've now onl only got one D two stroke +Yeah. +three +Rather than two D one, right. +A a a and the, and the, and the D seven bit is, is in a different section? +Is covered by part D two stroke one. +Right. +Thank you Dennis. +You're a +good lad. +Right. +Could I just quickly look through here? +I, I did have a go through this core brief to see if there were any things that I should have picked out. +There there is a good section, there's a good section on pensions +by the way because our staff will be concerned about pension proposals after privatization. +Is it? +It's section one point five. +If you view files three to five. +The main message I would give is that +the Board has responded to the government with regard to the pensions issue, and suggested a number of improvements to the government's proposals. +Yeah. +The scheme +The Board's +did that didn't it? +Yeah. +the Board considers the B R employe employees who transfer involuntary involuntarily to the private sector should return an indefensible right to remain as members of the joint industry +scheme . +We've seen all that. +But that, that's only a suggestion. +It's not been +Yes. +Yeah. +I mean wasn't this, wasn't this +Well. +They're not +one of these things where they +Let's, let's pick out something positive. +they actually put forward some proposals, whereby what do you call him withdrew the clause and wrote another one which negated anything that was said before? +Pardon? +That sounds a wonderful idea when does it +Who's what's her name? +. +Pass. +What do you call the secretary of state? +Freeman. +McGregor? +Oh. +Freeman. +Roger Freeman Secretary for +Yeah. +No. +McGregor's Secretary of State. +Roger Freeman's Transport +Well. +Transport Minister then. +I, I +thought that the Board had complained and put forward some suggestions. +It said in the +Mm. +T S S A circular +Whereby +Freeman withdrew the clause, wrote another one which meant that you had to go back to stage one again. +It wasn't very helpful. +And that was in your T S S A circular +Mm. +about +Right. +a fortnight +ago. +I sus well, I, I found that quite interesting the bit on pensions. +Th +Yeah. +th the bit that I found most interesting was at least the Board are trying to look after our interests in that respect. +Er and I think it's, watch that space. +Isn't it? +Yes. +Does that seem reasonable? +Without wading through it all and things are moving on +Yeah. +fairly quickly. +There's +still nothing black and white. +No. +Gripping stuff isn't it this? +Yeah. +Right. +N Nothing more there? +If anyone wants to borrow the core brief, they're welcome to do so. +Ken would like to read it. +Ha we got, have we got a copy upstairs? +Norman has a copy. +That's fine. +Well Nor Norman can brief them. +Yeah. +If he thinks so. +If you think so. +May I? +Yeah. +Erm and that's it. +Good. +Thank you very much. +No rule review? +Rule review. +Have we finished +Rule review and team brief. +Shall I get? +We've finished the +rule review today at four. +Can I, can I just ask one thing if we've finished +I'm +and any other business? +Right. +Plan printing. +We're again +Plan printing +We're having problems with getting the +drawings back from plan plinters +I'm astounded. +Are we +I think we, we complained to you and you complained +Er I +Did I, I, I, I've I've had +and +a letter back this week from him. +Forty eight hour turnaround? +s saying saying that er he's had lots of erm glowing testimonials from our +Complimentary letters would you believe? +staff er and he assumes that er everything's back to normal and hunky- dory. +Well. +It isn't. +I mean we we're saying we had things down there in excess of three days. +And we're not getting them back, short +Anybody else? +Had those problems? +It was just brought to my attention just before I came down. +When we want urgent work done we've really got to turn the screws tight. +It's hard work is it? +Yes. +It is. +Yes. +It is. +There's no official mechanism to do it. +Yeah. +It's er +You go down there on your hands and knees and you report it's not meet and then you +Yeah. +Is it? +I, I'm only +The er +It's not a quality service Trevor. +It, he has erm diluted the erm quality of service a d erm the performance specification he, he undertook to provide me with +Mm. +over the phone, because he said he was gonna be a two hour urgent work +Mm. +a and er by telephone arrangement if you want it quicker than that. +And now it's suddenly two days +yeah. +but urgent by special arrangements. +That's that's, you, you don't have to +Do you work his own printer? +Er that doesn't surprise me. +Mm. +Well. +I mean +Yeah. +But he's only buying his own +Ye +printer so that when he's hived off he's got some +Well. +We might wish to consider using him if you've got problems with +Mm. +Plan Printing. +Let Offices Services Manager know that. +No. +Because we're paying +for the staff down there and the paper +and +Well. +What the hell are we supposed to do? +Well. +As ask him for a refund on that much we haven't received from +Yeah. +them. +What I was gonna suggest, what I was gonna suggest was that anything that we +didn't get +I mean if we're not getting the service why +Anything that we didn't get to a timescale +Don't we refuse to ? +we should just go out to Prontaprint and invoice him for +B b +the +But what? +A lot, plenty of firms out there'll do it you know. +We don't, we don't +What happened whilst you were on holiday after that first few days off, the guy rang me up and said, hey some of your staff have been down er say saying we've got an urgent service that you can have in two hours. +That's right. +And he said , Who told you that? +Mm. +And I said, well, why we've just agreed that with Jilly . +And he said +Certainly did. +he said, I'll fucking see about that. +bet that's not in the Oxford Dictionary. +L +Ca can I +suggest +Can I rewind? +that, that er that you respond to that letter from him Trevor and say +that the information that we have from our staff does not correspond +Yeah. +with what he's put in there. +We w +And that we now propose +We need a two hour se +We need a two hour service. +If he can't provide it, then we intend to obtain prints from er an external source and get the invoices sent to him. +There's no point in telling him that, because he'll just refuse to pay them. +We will just, let's, let's threaten him that, that might be a course of action that we're gonna have to re we will have, we will have +gonna upset the staff . +to er +We'll obtain prices from outside for the work. +And don't accept the bill for two staff. +Right. +Splendid. +Well. +We can always stop +paying for the bloody machine that er +Yeah. +Mm. +I mean we're paying +I mean +forty five percent +There's no way we'll sit back and let him continue in this way. +So we've got to tell him what the options are. +Somebody has suggested that we train some of our staff up to use their machine. +And I think it came out of the print room. +What a good idea. +No. +It's not a good idea. +There are all sorts of health and safety implications to messing about with erm erm +Oh. +Well. +We'll get a core erm what do you call it? +Er assessment? +Yeah. +And make sure that we provide our staff with the appropriate +Fresh air, fans +protection. +breathing masks. +I don't see that as an +W w w what if +He's won then hasn't he? +Yeah. +if he gets rid of his staff +He's got rid of two of his he's got rid of two of his staff and we've had to go in and fill that breach. +Trevor, if we're in business on our own and we want prints +If we're in business in our own +and we want prints we would decide on what the most economic way of getting them is. +We would. +Well. +Let us now start investigating that. +At the moment I'm happy with the service down there by the way. +There's only Alan so far says he's got a problem. +Anybody else got a problem? +W w w we want to try and +I think before we take any urgent action we ought to Alan ought to monitor the situation. +Oh. +Well. +This is what we've been doing. +I mean wh what I've +After the last time we got a problem, +Cos we don't normally act. +we, we've, we've had prints down in there excess of three days. +Now all I'm saying is that he undertook to give us those in forty eight hours. +But all I'm asking is if there is an urgent work system, and if that urgent work system is being abused whereby everybody is putting down +Yes. +urgent work, +They shouldn't be doing. +which is pushing back his normal service +Mm. +Mm. +surely the urgent work procedure's gotta be pr reviewed as well. +It needs controlling. +And it needs controlling. +Which either means that somebody at my level or an M S three level or somebody, has gotta sign for the urgent work. +Yeah. +Where I'm +Because all it means is that anybody's signing it urgent +Yeah. +work , do me one now. +Yeah. +Right. +I'll +It needs sorting out. +I'll talk to . +It it's very +But where I'm puzzled a little bit by Terry, is about five minutes ago Terry said, people have got to go and beg and +They have a urgent work +get on their knees +scenario. +Yes. +Yes. +And then he said he was satisfied with the service. +The normal work. +The normal work service. +Yes. +It's the ur er Yeah. +Right. +It's the urgent ones +Yeah. +that cause the problem. +But i it depends Terry with everybody's going down on the urgent work ones which is putting the normal service +back isn't it? +Well. +Yeah. +I haven't suffered on the normal service so far. +The service is always difficult, like Roger said. +Mm. +Or somebody said. +Can we put a handle on this? +Can we +Erm I'm in correspondence with him. +I'm, I'm talking to him about the planned s filing system as well, which is +Well. +That's more than some people +What, what filing system? +would print +That is +of course. +But, but that is a function of this York Accommodation +Mm. +Consortium which is +I mean standard drawings out of there. +Yeah. +What is the York Accommodation +So in terms of action +Oh it's some, some +some high whizzing w one top guy from each erm business, get together and talk about Hudson House West Office's erm main H Q. +Who represents us? +Some guy from er S and T I think +No hoping they represent us. +cos they're part of the business unit. +So I said I didn't want to deal through somebody who wasn't really gonna be fighting in our corner, and I'd rather put a paper to their committee an and tell them where the problems were, and ask how they were gonna get round them. +They've got problems with erm staffing because they got rid of all their staff +Well. +Yeah. +But now now they've realized that they need more than one receptionist to cover the early hours and later hours. +But what they were thinking of doing is taking on another person who could file plans away in the plan room once the, once sort of the midmorning rush of visitors had been cleared in, in Hudson House reception. +But that sounds about as positive as his suggestion that he would train up +er the reprographic staff to cover peaks in er sorry the troughs in, in the staffing in the plan printing. +Mm. +I it sounds very well in principle, but in practice I haven't, doubt very much whether or not we will avoid having a, a dint in, in the service that we need. +But the plan, the ownership of the plan print room, and the way that the plans are not stored safely and they're not treated like proper documents, just amazes me when you compare it with some of the plan rooms in, in +Astounding . +B R. +What you want to do is ring up the Sunday Times and get a reporter round and he'll get a scandal story and they'll do something +Yes. +All we could suggest +all we could suggest that they did w w +sabotage in certain cases. +Well +was +not sabotage but +tootle in and find the security fencing drawings an and the underground ducts at the York Signal Box in the plan room and wouldn't they have a +a little wow? +Yeah. +Right. +What is our proposed action? +It will all be in there. +Well. +I will, I am writing to +To say that +Y A C +we we're still having some problems? +an a and saying that we are +Good. +far from happy with the plan print room with the er er o o o and suggest that the businesses ought to be concerned about the way that their records are stored in their plan room. +And that er +I would erm suggest that they go at Swindon to see how it's done. +Well. +I would suggest that we use this as a lead in to say, Isn't it time you paid to microfilm all the old drawings? +Can we be of any assistance? +The +Mm. +Well. +Another, this is, two things they've got enabled Swindon to get where they were. +One was a sort of leak to the Sunday Times +But we're not gonna go down that path. +Right. +Next? +Yeah but I imagine. +Not Sunday Times. +Can't I finish? +Well. +Go on. +Ye yeah. +Go on. +And the second w was the criticism they got at Glenrig. +They got you know quite a bit of stick for not being able to produce drawings that they said they had. +You know, they said they'd got drawings and then, well, where are they? +They couldn't produce them. +And they got some stick for that. +But those two things together were what enabled them to get their plan room into what it is now. +An absolute work of art. +Good. +Mm. +Right. +What we've gotta decide is what we want for the, the C E D G I thing. +Well. +I mean I was meaning I want to, to get your standard drawings out of there. +Jim knows what he wants and +gonna take our standard drawings out +what he wants to do. +I'm fully supportive of the P Way office getting the standard drawings there. +Er and I think Roger what you and Terry have to decide is what you want of your parts of the organization. +And then we can organize +Mm. +ourselves. +The problem is a lot of the drawings down there are historical drawings +Yeah. +Which we don't need. +Which are storing information which we don't need now but it +That's s +would grate to +Well. +D d it, it +Yeah. +It's the cost effect of not having that information, that's going be a cost on the client if he comes and wants to +Yeah. +do something to those +Yeah. +But it would be anyway. +Of course he will. +It's not a cost effect on us. +Well. +We shouldn't be picking up the tab. +No. +No. +No. +I, far from it but I think here we should be encouraging him or, or highlighting the, the problem that he's got that he ought to be looking at. +What what we should be doing is make s making sure that we have er the negatives of all those drawings that we've produced over the last ten or fifteen years, that we may need to use again. +Mm. +But ye but yeah. +That does need staff to search through them +It does. +Yeah. +It also needs somewhere to store them. +Mm. +Yeah. +Well. +We've got that now. +But you've got a plan room down there. +Which until recently functioned quite well. +Yeah but it doesn't any longer and I can't er quite honestly in, in the climate that's er +Rail Track. +Th th that is that is e existing +Yeah. +now. +Hopefully Rail Track will take it on board. +I mean that's the way it should go Rog. +Well. +Infrastructure's theirs isn't it? +Erm but I think we have a duty to our organization to determine what we want to do. +management buy-out, do you regret not having +Certainly. +Yeah. +So. +We really +short-sighted to see +But they wouldn't allow us to have +belong to them. +Yes. +They are. +Well. +They ma they maybe do belong to them but bloody hell they the information on it. +Mm. +Yes. +I think that +Right. +We'd have copyright on them wouldn't we +We +Yeah. +we should encourage them to microfilm them and then we should then encourage them to give us a a, a +Mm. +What? +set of +Mm. +Do you know that Trainload Freight went through +I in the absence +that print room and removing drawings of their depots +Is it? +We've got is it worth considering +And there's not a blind thing you can do to stop them taking +Yeah. +To them on their own terms? +them out of there now. +I, I +well. +I wou I would pre +Of course they are. +to the er the +But you're losing +Who's got copyright?? +a valuable s +Yeah. +source of information for any future projects. +My, my honest is we should get, we +The British Railways Board has copyright. +should get the photo the er microfilming facility. +Jim's gonna do this and I, I think Jim's +Jim's +exercise will be a good for us. +And if we find it's a, it's, it's er an effective system I think we should then do it for bridges +Mm. +and works +Although the cost +And P Way. +It was fairly it was fairly cheap when I looked into it +Yeah. +with P B D. +Forty five, forty five pence? +About five years ago. +Yeah. +I mean it, it's +Not only that it's they come and collect them take them away +Yeah. +and bring them back isn't it? +Yes. +Yeah. +All-in price? +What a hundred and sixty quid for five hundred drawings? +Is that for +Yeah. +A one or A nought or +. +So. +I mean +regardless of what they want to do, the rest of the organization, I think that we as an organization should do something like that. +With a view to er recording all the drawings that we've produced over the last fifteen years. +It would take quite a, an exercise to actually find them and +Well. +That's the w +Yeah. +would be. +Not the microfilming I think that's a good idea. +It's, it's finding out which ones are really any good. +Because they're not stored in, in +Yes. +a drawing number sequence. +So. +I +No. +suppose we could find them easy enough if they were. +They're actually stored in bloody line reference and +Are they really? +bridge number and +Mm. +What are? +I thought the bridge ones were in +No they're rolled up in +The Y V er +pigeonholes and things. +All we'd of done was taken pigeonholes and go to them and say don't want +that. +Don't want that. +Want that. +Want that. +Want that. +Record the number. +Mm. +Bundle them up them off send them off and the rest . +I mean a lot a lot of the plans in the plan rooms +were actually rationalized by +Joe and +Joe and er +Joe and +Bernard +Fortunate them. +About three or four +years ago. +So. +Most of the +rubbish should have gone and it was only the +Do you honestly think that they did all? +No. +They did they did an awful lot of it. +Yes. +I thought they just pratted about +And scratched the surface. +No. +They, they, they +they made a considerable impact certainly on the earlier years' ones. +But there's bags of drawings over +Yes. +Fine. +Petree. +And some bridge drawings among them. +And nobody quite knows what's there. +They never got to sorting those out. +Right. +Who's Petree? +The +Yeah. +But they're ancient +ones. +As far as I'm concerned they belong to er Rail Track or, or the businesses. +What I'm concerned about is those drawings that we've produced with our resources over the last fifteen years. +What since n say beginning of Selby? +Yeah. +Go back to there. +Yeah. +About nineteen eighty. +Cos before before that Rog the, the codes were changed anyway weren't they? +Yeah. +About nineteen eighty. +If we went back to nineteen seventy eight, we'd pick up all the Selby drawings wouldn't we? +Yes. +And +And all your s current standards. +a and, yeah. +I, I would have thought that would be good enough for us. +Well. +S . +Well. +Shall we, what, what are we talking then? +Are we talking about microfilming them or duplicate negativing them? +I would microfilm them. +Right. +it might turn out to be cheaper +Yeah. +number of drawings we're dealing with. +But we could get somebody who knows something about to come and advise. +Mm. +Certainly sounds as if P Way wouldn't want anything +Get, why not get +before about after nineteen seventy. +Or before nineteen seventy. +the plan room to come and advise? +On microfilming or on, or on w +well. +On, on microfilming, versus duplicate negatives, versus what else they've got. +but I've been down there? +We'd need a report order. +Yeah. +If Jim's gonna, if Jim's gonna micro +all the information on it +If Jim's gonna microfilm his stuff, then I think we should microfilm the civils drawings produced since +Nineteen seventy eight. +s b since since +Well. +Nineteen eighty. +Well. +I think we should make sure we sweep up the Selby drawings because they do include some fairly good stuff. +more costly +I, I realize that. +So. +Another case of finding the bloody things. +We'd want to go back a bit before that. +It's basically since you've got onto your er your vertical S and C, which goes back to about nineteen seventy. +Right. +And may just +Not that long +make the decision here because I think +I think actually somebody needs to sit down and think +Yeah. +There's +think +Yeah. +what, what they do want. +Yeah. +Because it may be that you th you, you look back and say, Christ, we've been using those standards since nineteen seventy. +Yeah. +So it may be that your standard drawings, you say, oh, goodness me. +Let's just have the standard drawings +Yeah. +No. +We, we normally use those +and be unaware you may not be interested in them. +for er for scheming and any alterations. +As a as a +Right. +as a quick means of doing +A anyway we can +The action is each function head +Yeah. +is really needs to think about how far back w we should go +Yeah. +er with a view to us erm considering +Oops +whether we should erm microfilm drawings for each function. +Cos we've got +And I think we should erm +we've got records of all the drawings haven't we Rog? +That you know our drawing number books once when it's been issued. +Presumably Terry's got the same. +Yeah. +We have upstairs. +Yeah. +So we can quickly +scan what we need and then budget for +microfilming them, oh within the next two years. +How much do we p pay incidentally for the print room facility? +For the print room? +Er the plan room. +Sorry. +Nothing. +Because it's not our plan room. +No. +But we +They're not our drawings. +So. +They, they belong to the client. +The person who owns the asset. +Well. +Somebody must be footing the bill. +Yes. +E E E East Coast Regional Railways and presumably Freight at one time. +So. +We don't contribute to it? +No. +It's a bloody massive er that I would +Right. +Good. +Any other business? +No. +Finished? +Good. +Thank you. +Rule review. +I'm not doing that +Ah. +Please can we leave it. +No. +I mean +I can't get my team brief done before everybody goes home now then. +What? +Right. +Right. +I'll be brief +A a to be fair Steve Steve has been on standby hasn't he? +To rule review us +Yes. +You're lucky to get Steve I mean +Yeah. +he's only here one day a week. +Er eh? +Well it means I won't be able +What time's your t what time's your team brief? +When? +Half past three. +Four o'clock it maybe could be. +But people go home early on Friday. +Friday they do. +Why can't it wait? +There's no reason why it shouldn't. +Am I out does everybody else want to wait? +Yeah. +I could wait. +It's been a long day. +It's not a subject that fascinates me. +Right. +It's been a long day. +Right. +We'll do it next week some time. +Alright Trev? +No problem for me boss. +I was rule reviewed by John . +Oh. +You can do us. +Oh. +No. +I talking back myself. +Would you, would you apologize to Steve on our behalf? +I will. +He followed me over the . +Has Steve gotta do all staff? +No. +No. +He was gonna do us and then we we, we +Cascade it down. +Cascade it down. +I thought we'd agreed that it would be much better if we +Right. +Thank you gentl + +Can we, can we start? +Hope we haven't spoilt your you haven't spoilt lunch by doing the statistical check. +No. +No, thank you. +Erm first of all can I put the county on notice to er respond later on this afternoon to the thesis expanded by Professor Lock that er it might be tenable to start calculating employment land requirements based on numbers of employed or numbers in employment or desired ai or employment levels to be aimed at, er and coupled with that, is there anything in the figures which they have produced in either their submission or and and its appendices which actually might form a basis for that sort of calculation? +It's a view, I'm not necessarily asking you to do any further statistical work but I would like a view on it, whether it's tenable or not. +And then we go back to the point which Mr Cunnane wanted to raise and they've had their lunchtime discussions, see whether you've come to a some form of agreement or resolution on that. +We have. +You have? +Right, would you like to start on that then? +Right. +Whil whilst whilst you're thinking about it I would also suggest that er well ask for any other comments anybody may wish to raise on Selby itself. +Erm anything else that needs to be added? +Er and if not we would move to discuss Harrogate. +Professor Lock. +Er David Lock sir. +One matter rose over erm in discussion over lunch which if we could get a clarification on it might help the remainder of the day. +Erm it's about the relationship between policy I five erm on industry and the policy I fifteen for erm central area offices and so on. +It was erm said this morning early on in an exchange in the discussion that erm +these two things were separate. +I twelve you mean? +I'm sorry +I twelve yes . +I beg your pardon I beg your pardon twelve, these two things were separate you know one could be added to the other in looking an as it were at the total employment requirement. +Th that was what was said. +Going through it at lunchtime we wondered if that really is what was meant, it's terribly important one way or the other. +Would it be possible to +Well you'd you'd like clarification on that from the county? +Yeah. +That was not my understanding Professor Lock. +My understanding was that any provision made in accordance with I twelve did not count towards I five +I five +provision. +Did not count. +Is that different to what I've just asked, sorry? +I think so. +Right. +Let's, can we find out. +Well can I say I, my interpretation of it, we're not quite looking at the same sort of horse. +Right. +But, Mr Williamson would you care to comment on the difference between I five and I, well what is the purpose of I twelve compared with the purpose of I five ? +Mr Potter. +David Potter, North Yorkshire County Council. +The essential difference i between I twelve and I five is that I twelve in the past has dealt with central area office developments +Mhm. +erm and some service development. +Now because of the changes to the use classes order and the B one office category, it's not always clear what is central area offices, what is B one offices on industrial estates, so what we've tried to do in terms of I five, I five has always essentially been there to deal with industrial development, +Yeah. +we've tried to incorporate an element of B one office within that provision but we feel it's not feasible to monitor effectively erm I twelve type office development within central areas. +The old I twelve which you have proposed altering and this is for Professor Lock's benefit, actually had specific er floor-space figures set against York, Scarborough and Harrogate did it not? +It did yes . +Yes. +Yeah. +And those have now been are proposed to be deleted from this +They are. +modification or this change to the policy. +But anything done I twelve does not take up any part of I five, as I understand it. +That's correct. +Yes. +Does that clarify ? +So +Does that clarify? +That is what I heard sir, yes . +So there is no limit on B one use in central areas, +in or adjacent to town centres to use the definition use in I twelve. +There is however some provision un-quantified for B one use in I five . +I five. +The sorry David Lock again. +So the the that is what I heard this morning erm +very grateful erm erm for your patience. +It it does, it is a terribly material +Mhm. +erm clarification because for people like me that are interested in the total provision of employment land in the district, erm what I'm hearing for example in the case of Harrogate is that there is an allocation of employment land of of sixty hectares plus the Greater York allocation. +It means that any office development or commercial of this kind in this I twelve policy that was to occur in Harrogate would not be counted off the sixty hectares of em erm of I five allocation, it would be in addition to it, and that may be a very important breakthrough for us . +Well yes. +No doubt you'll want to return to that. +Thank you very much. +I'm most grateful sir . +Yes. +But the critical thing with I twelve as the policy's currently drafted is that it is location specific. +It is not other than in town centres, market towns and local commercial centres. +Mm. +There is no such restriction on any I five provision. +It would mean then erm that a district council could take its allocation under I five in its local plan, distribute it everywhere except in the town centre +Not necessarily. +right. +It could put some in the town centre or it could or it need not. +Mm. +Mhm. +That could be determined against the local plan. +If it chose to put it all outside the town centre, what then subsequently occurred in the town centre under I twelve would not be damaging its allocation against the structure plan policy outside the town centre. +I it looks like there's a lot of freedom in there at the local level which is of interest. +Yes. +You are you are getting affirmative +I'm getting nods aren't I sir, and I'm very grateful for that . +Yes, yes, yes, yes. +Mr Cunnane? +Joe Cunnane, J C Cunnane Associates. +Yes the point that I wanted to raise on the table we have resolved. +It was, I didn't erm believe that the picture of constraint that was painted in appendix two was quite as bad as it looked. +And we have discussed the matter with erm Selby officers and the following is the result of those discussions. +What we've done is we've taken out of the table what is unlikely to happen, no not unlikely, er I'll rephrase that, what is agreed will not come forward in in the structure plan period, the roll forward +Mhm. +period. +And they are as follows, Selby Road Barlby, one point three hectares, it's about erm seventh from the top of the list, +Yes I've got it. +yeah, and the next one Olympia Mills Barlby. +Then moving down the table to outstanding planning consents, Whelan Road, Eggborough, three point three hectares. +And at the very bottom of the table Naburn hospital, twenty point eight nine hectares. +So that's about forty hectares in total is it? +It's thir thirty two point six hectares in total +Sorry. +of im of I five land. +Did you say thirty? +I'll tell you, I I have a, if I finish the sentence it +may explain. +In the Naburn hospital allocation it's, there is eleven H A for I five land and then there's a remaining allocation for retail +Yeah, yes. +So if you count only the I five land, you get a figure of thirty two point six hectares +Mhm. +which needs to be deducted from the hundred and ten point two seven which gives you a re a possible alloca a possible amount of land to come forward in the structure plan period of seventy seven point six seven, off which to make the figures round properly you need to take another ten, for the retail element if that became I five land which could theoretically give you a figure of sixty seven point six seven. +Does that make sense? +It might it would be helpful actually if this could be written down for us. +Quite happy to have it in manuscript. +Mm. +Right. +Yeah we'll do that. +Thank you. +Mr +Mr Heselton. +Thank you sir, Terry Heselton, Selby District. +I'm I'm not wishing to er to dispute what er Mr Cunnane's just said er, I hope you won't think I'm necessarily splitting hairs but +er we we've we've agreed the table on on the base basis of erm information best information available a at the moment but but equally I wouldn't wish it to be seen th that I am in any way attempting to prejudge the outcome of er local plan studies, erm so the information that I've agreed with with Mr C Cunnane is basically an attempt to clarify the tabulation fo er in +Yeah. +terms of what is most likely to happen on the basis of the information available. +I mean i what what we're looking for is is the overall figure of this revised assessment of land availability for I five uses in the plan period, and your residue figure would be the one which would not likely to be made available before the year two thousand and six. +Are you happy with that? +Yes sir. +Thank you. +Now anyone else want to make a contribution on Selby and then we can move to Harrogate? +Sorry, yes. +Come on it's alright. +Final contr final contribution on Selby if I may please. +I just need to draw attention to the fact that the erm Selby have given us a a very clear explanation of their unemployment problems and the difficulties they're facing and erm their th th their solution being er the allocations that they're suggesting which obviously I don't agree with. +But I just I simply need to point out that these I five allocations are targeted at twenty eight percent of the workforce. +Mhm. +Erm the remaining seventy two percent are entirely separate from this and obviously that's a a very important point to bear in mind when you consider the level of allocation that's been made first of all, and secondly the likelihood that if that is successful, first of all if it's approved, if it's recommended by the panel and eventually taken on by the county, and secondly if happens, then it is likely that it will result in skewing of the workforce even more towards the manufacturing sector of the economy and would in our view be contrary to the aim of diversification of the economic base. +I don't understand that Mr Cunnane Can you first of all explain please why you say it's targeted towards twenty eight percent of the workforce? +Be because the I five policy is aimed at a specific area of the workforce, it's not it's not across the full spectrum. +For example it omits retail services +Mm. +erm all other types of employment other than I five type employment. +But I five includes business use, class B one. +It includes an element of business use which is likely to end up in er industrial estates which is not the full spectrum of business use, back to the point I twelve er is the main generator of business use employment as I understand it. +It could include any B one use? +Yes. +But the +I don't understand therefore how you can ex say that it's targeted to primarily to manufacturing. +Because the B one use that's that is planned for within that allocation is a type of B one which is likely to locate on an industrial estate er to use the the term. +It's not the full spectrum of B one use. +The reason that that B one insertion has been made is to cope with the use classes order change. +I don't think I can accept that it's targeted towards industrial estates, it does not preclude office style campus development being included within it. +Yes I I would accept that. +But the general point remains that it is to it is targeted towards a particular sector of the workforce. +it omits town centre office, it omits retail, it omits leisure, all the other types of employment generation that can take place. +I think we can agree it omits leisure, shopping, +Education. +Lo local +government administration +No it does not o omit local government administration. +Mm. +It'd be perfectly proper if there were new local government offices to be built for them to be located on an I five site. +I can cite you a perfectly good example of that. +Well that's specifically excluded from the er calculation. +If you look into the calculations you'll find they are specifically excluded. +The I wasn't talking about what were included in the calculations, what I was talking about and we may be at cross purposes for that reason is what the policy provides for. +It's it's probably easier to say what it doesn't provide for. +Erm, it as I say it doesn't provide for the the uses we've just discussed and in my, I don't want to get too entangled in the statistics of it, the main point I want to make is that +Mm. +it is targeted at a s at a at a sector of the workforce, it is not the whole workforce of Selby by any means. +Mm. +It is +But that applies to any of the districts? +Yes. +Doesn't it? +Yeah. +I accept that, but none of the other districts are g are are making the point that's Selby's making, that the level of unemployment that they are encountering across the economy, not necessarily just in this sector of the economy, justifies the doubling of the of the of the allocation put forward. +But part of their argument as I see it is that they are trying to seek to minimize the impact er in terms of unemployment levels by shifting the structure er and trying to well possibly counter the effects of a fallout in the primary sector. +Yes I accept that. +Mm. +But it doesn't it doesn't take from the point that I made that it is i i the allocation they're seeking is aimed at a very specific sector of the employment base . +Yeah, well yeah. +That the Senior Inspector doesn't accept that. +No I cannot accept that. +It includes all types of industry and business use as d the latter is defined by class B one +I'll I'll accept that . +which includes light industry. +Yeah. +It is not therefore targeted towards manufacturing. +Any more than it is targeted towards high-tech, R and D, office headquarters +or any other type of office development except that which is and as I said in response to the point Professor Lock was making, it does not include town centre type +Mm. +uses. +There is nothing in it which precludes town centre type uses. +Well i if it assists, I'll omit the use of any kinds of labels of manufacturing or offices +Mm. +or anything like that and I will make the point that it is targeted at a sector of the economy and the workforce, it is not the whole economy and not the whole workforce. +I think the point you were trying to make is it it's a relative sorry no I shouldn't say relatively small, but it's a proportion of the workforce which is somewhat less than fifty percent. +Yes. +I can't accept that . +But are you +It's difficult it's difficult +No. +It's difficult +to put figures on that you see, you can't do it. +I accept that it precludes class A development. +It does not in my view exclude any B class development . +Mm. +I accept that. +Yeah. +Then it is not targeted towards any sector of the workforce. +Is it? +Well i by definition it must be if it excludes all A classes for example. +It inc excludes retail development. +Yes. +Leisure development, +Yes. +As the chairman said education, transport +Yes. +Yes. +I d I d +Not except it does not i preclude exclude B eight uses. +No. +Warehousing. +No I I well I've accepted it includes +Mm. +all B uses. +But as I say I don't necessarily want to get involved in too much of the detail of the statistics of it, I simply want to make the overall point that we've been told that there are three thousand unemployed. +It's an emotional phrase okay. +There are three thousand unemployed in Selby. +Selby has has a particular problem, its its economy is narrowly focused, it suffers high unemployment. +The point I make is that the the allocations that we are making are not going to solve the problem across the full spectrum of the economy, they are targeted. +I think we might well we could be in a cul-de-sac here or a discussion which er could cease to bear any fruit very rapidly. +Could we er +Are you s can we j ask Mr Cunnane is he suggesting that I five definition the second line of the policy should be widened? +No I'm not. +Thank you. +Thank you. +Mr Heselton. +Er thank you sir, Terry Heselton Selby District. +Erm . +In in view in the light of what you've just said I'm not sure whether I wanna get er too involved. +certainly not in the er in the statistical element. +C can I just clarify erm, what I think Mr Cunnane w was saying then through through you i if you like. +The the twenty +What do you mean if I like? +eight percent erm the two hundred and fifty hectare er two hundred and fifty hectares is needed for twenty eight percent of +I was +the of the workforce. +I was trying to get away from percentages and I was trying not to pursue the thing any further. +Well I'll go along with that, sir. +Thank you. +Do you want to pursue it any further? +Only to the extent of saying +given that those that are employed today cannot be guaranteed to be em to be employed tomorrow and that the three thousand in essence comprises of a constantly changing group of people, I don't see how anyone can argue that future employment provision is geared towards anybody. +It's geared towards us all surely. +Even inspector work. +But you don't m I won't say it. +Can we move to Harrogate? +Mr Allenby can I ask you to pick up your submission then follow on with er Professor Lock. +Thank you chairman. +Er David Allenby, Harrogate Borough Council. +I'll be very brief +it's all set down in my statement. +Er basically Harrogate's position is that it supports the level of employment land proposed in policy I five, and that's er a total allocation of ninety hectares. +Erm however we would wish to see that policy complemented by the inclusion of the strategic exceptions policy erm and we know that I know that's to be discussed tomorrow but I will mention now that I think it would have been much more useful to the discussion if we'd have been able to discuss the strategic sites issue as part of this debate. +We were we were not looking for an exception to policy E two we were looking for a policy which complements erm I five. +Anyway I'll I'll not say any more about that. +The total allocation of ninety hectares fo for Harrogate comprises er two thirty hectares Greater York, sixty hectares for the rest of the district. +I've already said this morning that the thirty hectares for Greater York really reflects the availability of the site which is already committed. +The sixty hectares provision for the rest of the district closely erm relates both to both methods erm of the forecasting erm that the County Council have done and the the forecast on on the basis of past rates and economic activity, and it's our view that erm the the level of sixty hectares is reasonable in relation to both those methodologies. +Anything less than sixty hectares would be unrealistic and it certainly won't allow us any flexibility at all to allocate erm sufficient land as we see it to meet the needs of the resident population, and there would in fact be a shortfall er of employment land provision in our view towards the end of the plan period. +Er perhaps more importantly,i it wouldn't meet the advice of P P G four that provision should be realistic er a realistic reflection of the needs of business er and that there should be a range in choice of sites to meet +the varying needs of business and to facilitate competition. +Having said that, we're not seeking an higher allocation under I five either er because in general terms, we we don't feel it's necessary to make further provision in and around main settlements. +Erm having said that, I I will mention briefly again the strategic sites issue and we do feel that there should be additional flexibility through that sort of policy to allow for er the possibility of different types of developments to come forward. +Er we do hold the view that the sixty hectares is sufficient on the on the basis that there is a degree of flexibility within the structure plan provision, er and that er flexibility should allow us erm in special circumstances for example to compensate for the loss of existing major employment erm sites, erm to make additional provision over and above that. +We already have confirmation from the County Council that there is an element of flexibility within er I five. +I note in circumstances where th there was to be the loss of a major employment site to other uses, then er additional provision could be made. +I don't really want to make any more +Mhm. +Can I interpret what you've just said as erm representing in effect an aim on the part of the County Council to secure in Harrogate the nineteen ninety one area of employment land plus ninety hectares in two thousand and six? +Yes tha that's right yes. +In general terms. +So if you lost something the ninety would increase accordingly? +Yes er the er David Allenby, Harrogate Borough Council. +Yes I think that would apply where there was a a major or significant loss of employment land. +We're not talking about small sites which go from employment use +to another use, we're talking about something much more significant than that. +That's not been defined erm and it will be a matter of judgement. +There are sites in Harrogate that erm could be lost to employment use and that we'd want to make compensating provision for those sites over and above the ninety hectares. +Thank you. +Professor Lock and then Mr Laycock. +David Lock sir excuse me. +David Lock. +I think I could be a lot lot shorter than it might have been thought was necessary because things have been made, a lot of furniture has be has been moved today er already. +Erm we sir had objected to the erm er allocation proposed for of employment land under I five er to Harrogate, er believing that it should have been even more than +the erm er raised figure of sixty hectares outside Greater York er that is in currently before you before us all. +Erm the reasons that we were er anxious about this allocation to Harrogate erm stemmed from the point that I think somebody should make on this occasion and that is that it does seem there are two local authorities within North Yorkshire that have particularly distinguished er issues to deal with on employment. +One is Selby which we've just spent the morning discussing and for very very different reasons the other is Harrogate. +Erm Harrogate er is a borough that's enjoyed an enormous er growth in prosperity and economic activity during the erm exciting er yuppie years of Mrs Thatcher the mid eighties and erm er was indeed one of the I think one of the most wealthy boroughs, one of the highest economic activity rate levels, the Civic Society tell us in their papers it was paying the highest rates and all these sort of indicators, but with as so much of that period it turned out to be er a bubble and a chimera and er the borough has experienced some very severe erm er closures in recent years. +And so whilst the popular perception of Harrogate will remain of it as being a very prosperous and pretty borough er with everything going for it, in fact there's a very serious unemployment problem of structural er magnitude and we felt that the county structure plan had not acknowledged this erm special difficulty that Harrogate was facing, and had merely applied as we heard this morning the standard formula as it were to Harrogate, as it had to all the other local authority areas in the county. +And this application of standard formula upset Selby for reasons we heard this morning, and it upsel =set us because it didn't seem to be taking the real situation into account. +In particular erm we were worried that the county just had not acknowledged that one of the phenomena of the nineteen eighties had been that much of the industrial land in the borough of Harrogate converted to B one office use. +Erm very extensive business park development took place, land values on these industrial areas rose accordingly and all manufacturing uses were either er destabilized because their land values now became greater than the businesses that were on them, or new manufacturing plant simply could not acquire the land at affordable prices because there were always people willing to buy it for B one. +This was a very strong phenomenon in Harrogate and we felt the erm the county had not er understood that matter seriously enough. +Secondly we were erm concerned that the county had not erm thought properly about employment densities, erm they have backed away from using employment density today as a significant calculator, but I hope you've noticed sir that the erm the county's mind set on employment densities is that whereas in the last structure plan they were working off a density, average density of thirty four workers for hectare. +Erm in this round they are er working off a higher figure of forty three. +Happens to be a reversion of the two numbers which is neat. +Whereas all the trends erm I would submit, sir in in economic activity, are suggesting that employ average employment levels and densities are falling, partly because of improved working conditions that workers require and also because of er modern processes and site layouts er have lower densities, all of which suggests that depression on the number of workers per hectare rather than an increase which is where the county's head is at. +Thirdly we felt the county had not understood enough of the pattern of erm impending relocations within Harrogate Borough Council. +Erm the economic development unit of the borough, Mr Allenby, should know more about it than me, but they have done studies of the firms in Harrogate that can be expected to seek relocation within the borough as they sort themselves out over the next five years, and erm their own calculations for the next five years is more than the county's whole calculation for the next fifteen years, which suggested to us again that there was a problem about the understanding that the county had on the matter of relocations within Harrogate compared with what was going on locally. +And erm, the other aspect, the last aspect that gave us er anxiety was something I touched on this morning when I joined in at the end of the Selby discussion. +And that is the erm absence of understanding it seems to us from the County Planning Department of the way the actual market works, and of the need for a local authority area erm in seeking to obtain employment for its people, the need for that area to be able to offer a variety of er employment land both in quality, size and location. +This is an important point sir because there is a drift of much government policy towards the reuse of derelict urban land and the lady on my right here was making this point this morning to you. +Erm as desirable as that objective is, the fact of the matter is that inward investors, given the choice of the derelict industrial site in a town centre in North Yorkshire or an out of town motorway junction site to exaggerate the difference, in another part of the country is as likely as not to choose the other place. +Now this means that erm putting it in its simplest way that for any of the districts in North Yorkshire and for Harrogate and if I may presume to say so in Selby in particular where the need is greatest, the local authorities must have the ability to designate what is provocatively called green field land, if they so wish in their local plan,proper consultations and strategic policies, they must have that freedom to do that if they are to be able to offer in their district land which will prove attractive to erm employment generating uses. +Now those were the issues that were leading us sir had left us to make an objection to this structure plan that we thought erm the detailed papers on it were sent to the county in our in our objections, they led us to by a series of calculations to come to the view that around about a hundred hectares would be more appropriate for Harrogate, this is in addition to its Greater York supplement, erm than what is now settled upon which is sixty hectares. +However, having heard today sir that two things. +Erm firstly that if an existing employment use falls to another land use, this is what Mr Allenby was just saying, the subsequent release of employment land onto the market does not come out of the sixty hectares the structure plan's asking for, that's what that's what Mr Allenby just said, I hope he won't come back on it, major point. +Having heard that, and secondly due to your patience er through your patience getting clarification that it the borough could if it wished allocate its sixty hectares under this structure plan policy outside the town centres and that things that then took place in town centres would be extra, it's not something they have to do but it's a freedom they would have in their local plan, having heard those two things, the concern I've got that even at sixty hectares, Harrogate's allocation was too small erm really recedes very quickly sir, and would completely disappear and here Mr Allenby and I are at one, +if the way this discussion had worked out had got the strategic site policy on the table today as a discussion item, and if we were able to get clear that such a strategic site policy if it existed was in addition to the +allocations under I five, I would be wholly happy sir and would be able formally withdraw our objections absolutely. +So in summary there are three, three little erm weights in the balance here as far as er as far as I'm concerned, and all three weights in the balance would shut me up completely. +The first one we've had satisfaction on today, erm that new employ sorry existing employment land falling vacant and being redeveloped doesn't count against the sixty hecst hectares, secondly that the borough if it wished, subject to the local plan process and er county structure plan policies could choose to put its sixt sixty hectares outside the city centres or in part, and then the third weight sir which much hover in the air I guess till tomorrow would be er the arrival of the strategic site policy which would be in addition . +Those three things would kill it sir altogether and two already are looking very optimistic. +The last could be the icing on the cake couldn't it? +Yes it could . +Couldn't put it better myself. +Would you like then an interpretation of what is meant by I five and I twelve in the context of your comments? +That would really +By both the county and Mr Allenby? +That would really help sir, thank you sir. +Who who is going to that one? +Mr Potter first? +Er David Potter, North Yorkshire County Council. +Erm taking up Professor Lock's points of the way the figures were calculated. +The B one development take-up is er I think a result of the the market in terms of B one is an attractive position for speculators, a great deal of that land has not yet been developed. +I believe there is speculative developments appreciate that it is not likely to be developed for B one, it will become available for other uses. +With regard to the thirty four workers forty three workers per hectare, the approved structure plan is based on forty three workers per hectare as a result of the Secretary of State's intervention in terms of, he agreed forty three workers per hectare, we simply carry that forward. +The relocations issue, on relocations the County Council uses past land take-up, there will be an element of relocations included within that land take-up figure in so far as land which is vacated on small sites and falls to another use that is that is not counted. +In terms of the economic activity projections, as a result of representations made to me by one of Professor Lock's colleagues, that was one of the main reasons I increased the assumptions on the eco economic activity based projection, to increase B one office relocations to a a far higher degree percentage than previously. +So in fact I believe we have taken on all all of those issues. +With regard to an absence of market demand, the economic development strategy produced by the County Council refers to inward investment, it refers to this as being a small portion of the portion of er job growth, the county is not necessarily best placed to attract inward investment in terms of the the type of economy that we have based on small firms and the availability of labour. +The inward investment is will continue to be a source of new jobs and it is encouraged as a as making a contribution to new jobs, but is never going to be a major contributor to new job growth. +So we have in fact taken on board what we consider to be the market demand issue. +In terms of the land which is lost and will it be counted, er I would agree with David Allenby, in so in so far as where small sites are lost, they are in fact largely taken up in past land-take trends, but when a major site is lost, that at the moment forms part of the ninety one base of employment, and it it is something that we wouldn't have anticipated, therefore I think in terms of when we look at land availability figures and availability of supply erm we would have to look very carefully at land which is lost or significant land which is lost, or a significant number of jobs, it wouldn't necessary be added onto the structure plan requirement, but it could be deducted from the land availa land availability figures as land lost. +Do you have a threshold for that? +In terms of size or +I think it depends very much on the circumstances. +We would have to deal with that as and when it arose. +Right. +Mr Allenby? +Thank you chairman. +David Allenby, Harrogate Borough Council. +Just a a couple of points. +Er on density we have ourselves done some er survey work to show that a density of about forty three persons per hectare is about right. +I think our survey showed it could be as high as fifty per hectare in fact, er but we didn't have a full response to the survey and er there's nothing er in the results that would lead us to a conclusion that it should be lower or higher, so we're quite happy to accept that assumption. +Erm on the use of existing employment sites, I'd hate you to go away with the impression that er we were actively seeking to reallocate sites as they came forward, and that certainly isn't the case. +We have a policy within our local plan and the council are committed to a policy in the district-wide plan to retain employment sites in employment use wherever we can. +However there will be circumstances where sites are not suitable for continued employment use, er perhaps because of their impact on neighbouring residential areas, er and in those circumstances we would want to make compensating +Can I take up this point about the forty three forty three, the chairman is telling me thirty four. +Erm +forty three thirty four +As I understand it the structure plan is based on an average density employment density of forty three. +That's correct yes. +Got the numbers in the right order. +And I as I understand the County Council's justification, it is that this was what the Secretary of State changed it to in nineteen eighty seven. +That's correct. +I have been puzzling to establish and I have failed, whether on the fourteenth of January nineteen eighty seven when the Secretary of State wrote the notice of approval, which in confirms his view that forty three per hectare is right, whether the use classes order had then been amended. +It seems to me, racking my memory that the use classes order post dates and therefore the introduction of class B one which was the main thing in the new use classes order, the chairman tells me it was nineteen eighty eight. +In that sense, if my logic is okay so far, and it is the amendment to the use classes order which has significantly shifted how we regard employment development for planning, I wondered if the justification for the forty three per hectare, on the grounds that the Secretary of State imposed it, actually holds water, these days? +Sorry that was a long and complicated version to your question. +But was the question clear Mr Potter? +The the question was clear yes and er I in fact I agonized over that very question myself when I was trying to put these figures together. +The er the figure of for the the density assumption used in the structure plan was originally thirty four workers per hectare and was corrected to forty three workers per hectare. +Mhm. +Erm that was based, the thirty four workers per hectare was based on a a survey of er employment site ac sites across the county. +I try to update that wherever I can, and it is very difficult, we have to use the annual census of employment and historic records. +On the information that I have, densities range quite considerably, from as low as ten workers per hectare up to a hundred workers per hectare, but on average somewhere around thirty four, forty three could be taken if one wished to choose an average. +And as I was forced to do, adopting this approach, then that is the average I took. +With regard to B one development, er I wrote around those areas where which to other county councils, structure plan societies which monitored B one development and where B one development had taken place, which was largely in the southeast. +Again the densities that I was getting back from them varied considerably, from a hundred workers per hectare on some +B one developments again to much lower figures. +Erm and given the wide range of densities, the only conclusion I came to was I should accept forty three workers per hectare. +How would you answer the allegation that that is unduly restrictive, bearing in mind the sort of factors which Professor Lock referred to like us all needing and liking more space? +And attractive surroundings and things like erm leisure facilities, save your heart exercise machines and all of that in our workplaces? +Tennis court,I think you've got the message. +Yes erm modern business parks, erm they come in various shapes and sizes, some in extensive landscape settings with a lot of space around them, er and some at er Clifton Moor in York which er are more compact. +And erm we have er multistorey units. +I the densities will vary, you know the multistorey units, two or three floors office building could have a degree of er more more space around it. +It it is very difficult to determine exactly what er space requirements are. +I think forty three workers per hectare is a reasonable +The highest building I think I've seen is the Minster. +Do we +want to encourage multistorey development? +No but er I think +recognize that er +yet again +there are one or two around yes. +Thank you. +I'm just trying, looking through your submission to see whether in fact you have produced a table which showed the possible land provision based on thirty four workers to the hectare. +Have you have you got have you done that +Yes the er that's a separate submission I've corrected today show's that . +Yeah, yeah. +Right. +So in the context of thirty four workers per hectare as against forty three, +Mhm. +doing a rough rule of thumb, and that could increase for example for example the Harrogate provision by a third couldn't it? +Erm +Cos there's about a twenty five percent in workers per hectare, which actually would lead to about a third a third increase in the provision. +The the Harrogate +the Harrogate provision would rise from er the rest of the district outside Greater York, would rise from fifty two hectares to sixty six hectares. +Yeah. +A significant percentage increase. +Yeah. +It's about twenty five percent. +Sorry you said fifty two hectares for the rest of the district? +Rest of the district, yes. +Yes, yes, yes tabulation yeah, yeah. +Fifty two to sixty +To sixty five. +What if +Sixty six. +Yes, yes. +Mr Allenby? +David Allenby, Harrogate Borough Council. +It it helps chairman er I could refer to the survey that we did erm of I think it was six erm industrial estates or employment er estates around the district, and they vary from modern business parks which are mainly office type developments through to some traditional and trading type estates. +Erm at Hornbeam Park at er at Harrogate which is very recent office park, er had a density of forty two workers per hectare, whereas erm Lane Industrial Estate at Ripon which is a traditional sort of market town trading estate had a density of only thirteen +Mhm. +7 to the hectare, and th the range as David Potter said and very you know very significantly erm up to sixty or seventy per hectare down to thirteen which was the lowest. +I beg your pardon +It's alright. +Professor Lock . +Just want to see whether Professor Lock was wanted any more er clarification on the responses he's had. +Yes sir David Lock. +I'm acutely aware of the Civic Society on my left desperate to get in. +But erm the county didn't answer the er give us the clarification on the relationship between I twelve and I five erm that er we were asking for. +Erm I've I particularly important because the districts here will need to feel very clear about what it is County Hall would not sorry would or would or would not jump on their necks for you see . +This is terribly important. +Er so any clarification you can give about er er Mr er with Mr Potter's comment that we would have to wait and see each one on its circumstances when we talking earlier about the industrial change of use makes me twitch, because it's lack of precision which all of us are trying to eliminate as much as we can in this process. +So erm any er any clarification on the way the districts can use I twi er I twelve and I five as not being necessarily mutually exclusive wou would help. +David Potter, North Yorkshire County Council. +Er policy I five is primarily intended to deal with traditional industrial development, but it also recognizes that an element of B one development will take place on there, and as such development within the the business class be acceptable. +Policy I twelve seeks to cater for the needs of central area office development. +Traditionally the two things have been very separate. +Erm i the definition is less clear now. +The with regard to the control of I twelve it is a matter for the district council to determine in their local plans to where a central area is put erm whether a central area development should take place. +I hope this is the last round sir. +It begins to sound from this description that it's I twelve which is a bit of a dinosaur, a a dodo, that this is a county trying to carry on a thing which has probably passed its sell by date, that er it isn't fair to say that I five is primarily for industry, erm that isn't what the law says it is. +You know whatever your intentions might be, a structure plan with that policy in it as was being discussed earlier, would admit all kinds of employment development within the relevant use classes order. +Erm the er desire that I twelve conveys to encourage district councils to make special provision in their you know to emphasize high density employment in their city centres is understood, no quarrel with that, but if you can't, if you feel unable er at county level to be absolutely explicit, that a district would be free if it so chose, it might not choose to do so, if it so chose to make I twelve decisions that didn't come out of its I five, er they wouldn't have to come out of its I five allocations, unless you can be clear that they're free to do that, erm it suggests to me sir that may be it's I twelve that's that's getting in the way, erm and w that might well be something we can do without. +David Potter? +Yeah David Potter North Yorkshire County Council. +I I think I'm quite able to confirm that it is within the district power to to determine that erm the I five allocation should be separate from the I twelve. +You are able . +You you're happy with that? +Very happy. +Delirious. +Mr Cunnane. +Mr Cunnane believes his point has been answered yes? +We got out of the cul-de-sac? +Yes. +I thought the score was fifty . +Mr Allen Allenby. +Dave Allenby, Harrogate Borough Council. +Can I just say on this sir that we we see policy I five as our interp sorry I twelve, it's our interpretation that it's really a recognition that office development is appropriate in or adjacent to er town centres and that we won't be seeking to er identify offices in or adjacent to town centres and take that element off the I five provision. +It will of course include other +types of B one use +Mm. +in addition to office development. +It would include as the policy is drafted light industry in town centres. +Does Mr Potter accept it and he has no option use classes order? +Er David Potter, North Yorkshire County Council. +I think yes er we have to accept that er the use classes order would allow that erm, but what we would anticipate is that in terms of I five, the local planning authority would be would allocate specific sites related to I five . +Yeah, yeah, yes. +Yeah thanks. +Mr Laycock. +Thank you Mr chairman. +One thing I've learnt in the last half hour is the speed at which the rules of debate seem to be changing and it will not surprise you to hear that as Mr Allenby and Harrogate District Council have moved towards Professor Lock's point of view, they have moved away from the Civic Society's point of view. +Now I'd like to bring you back to Mr Williamson's opening remarks in which he described the allocations of land for industry and all these other things that are tied in with industry now as generous, making generous allocations, and the Civic Society would like to see those allocations rather less generous, we are like trying to develop a climate of restraint when on the expansion of Harrogate and the rate at which people are encouraged or wish to come into the town. +Now we are of course talking principally on this sixty hectare allocation for the district outside the Greater York area because I think it is well understood this enquiry can have comparatively little impact on how much development takes place within the surroundings of Greater York, because I understand the site that's being discussed is already committed and it is in any case part of the York pool rather than the Harrogate pool. +So we're talking about the sixty acre sixty hectares that are allocated for the rest of the Harrogate district and er I should like formal confirmation from Mr Allenby privately already that there is no question of any part of the York, Greater York area allocation being transferred into the rest of the district should it fall through for any purpose. +Should I deal +Yes. +Should I deal with that right now chairman ? +Yes please. +Yes +Yes David Allenby, Harrogate Borough Council. +Yes is that, that is my impression of the situation, the erm the basis of provision in the Greater York area is is that there is a site that is available and committed for er employment use. +Erm if that site doesn't come forward, we won't be looking to transfer that allocation to the rest of the district. +It'll have to be found somewhere else in Greater York . +Thank you that clarifies the issue and concentrates our minds on this figure of sixty hectares. +Now we in the Harrogate Civic Society would like to see the rest of the district allocation reduced at least to fifty hectares which has something to do with the forecast requirement on the grounds of past take-up, and I believe it is nearer the original figure for the rest of the district floated by the county in the initial consultations before amendment was made to the allocation between Greater York and the rest of the district. +Ideally the Civic Society would like to see far more drastic policy change, possibly thinking in terms of forty hectares but we realize the minimum possible would be the thirty point five hectares which is hanging over from the first phase of the structure plan, and so that must of course be regarded as committed. +Now we have consistently been somewhat sceptical about the genuineness of demand for land for industrial purposes. +There has been reference in the Selby area for the likelihood that land initially allocated for industry will in fact be taken up for a supermarket. +In Harrogate all too often it is car showrooms. +There's a site to which this Society objected on Wetherby Road in Harrogate which we thought didn't need developing at all, but in practice the District Council decided they wanted it for industry because it considered the need for industry to be so great and we have along this frontage of Wetherby Road a row of three car showrooms and a token spot of industry behind it. +Now we see that happening in an existing allocation and our scepticism towards further allocations is increased. +Erm there are other cases where there is addit er existing land in office or industrial use owned by National Power where the owner is now asking for the land to be con taken out of industrial use and er transferred to housing. +Now the District Council is thinking in terms of this as a reason why perhaps sixty ac sixty hectares may not be entirely enough and we should seek to compensate for transfers out of industrial land. +The Civic Society takes the view that if land is being transferred out of industrial land and the District Council is going to allow this to happen, this casts doubt about how genuine the need is to find additional industrial land when land already allocated to industry is being lost. +Now the point has already been raised and partly answered in the question in the case of Selby District Council as to whether it matters whether there is an over-provision of land for industry and other employment. +Well one detrimental consequence of allocating more land for industry and employment is the a greater unpredictability of take-up. +If you're going to have to find a much larger area you have to spread your net wider to find more and more sites for development which you might otherwise have been able to save from development, and there will an environmental cost, a cost to the quality of life of people living nearby because sites you might not wish to have developed must be included to find the target figure of industrial development. +And if in fact this large area of industrial development is not taken up, you cannot be sure that the bits that are not taken up will be the least environmentally sensitive. +It may be the ones that are environmentally sensitive will be taken up and other sites which are less environmentally sensitive will not be taken up, and er so we are anxious that we do not over-provide because we are anxious to save many attractive sites around Harrogate from development. +And er I've already referred to a byproduct of over-provision that sites are then moved on to sh car showrooms and erm supermarkets which are needs which or demands which would probably not have justified the allocation of the land for industry in the first place but once the land is allocated to industry it seems to be thought that no harm would be done by allocating those to something else. +Over-provision has a sort of knock-on effect that er whatever we provide this time, we shall be asked to provide at the next revision of the structure plan and so if we can keep some land back this time, then that might be what we offer next time, we have to roll forward the structure plan. +And that is another reason why we are very keen to cut the allocations to land to the absolute minimum. +Now there's been a lot of talk about the need to revive employment in Harrogate, and erm the possible future regeneration of the North Yorkshire economy as compared with the existing concern of Leeds and other authorities to regenerate the West Yorkshire authority. +I would hate to feel that we were taking jobs away from Leeds in the sense that er people from Leeds felt compelled to move to Harrogate to do those jobs and I would cannot help feeling that elsewhere in Yorkshire, and I'm thinking particularly of South and West Yorkshire, there are many derelict industrial sites which re need to be recycled before we +go too far along the line of er taking green field sites for new developments. +Now a question of what are the industrial and employment needs of the Harrogate District? +There's been a lot of concern over the past few months of the rate of increase in unemployment within the Harrogate District and how as a percentage unemployment has increased in the Harrogate District rather than other districts. +Now I would say to sa say that that is almost a bit like the story of the boy crying that he didn't have many holidays because he didn't go to school and that because Harrogate's er unemployment is so low or has been historically so low compared with other areas, a relatively small increase in the number of unemployment has an enormous increase as compared with what it's been in the past and so the same number of people living in Harrogate who lose their jobs has an impact on the unemployment figures as perceived locally greater than a similar number of people losing their jobs in Leeds or Selby or somewhere else, and so I think to some extent this the rhetoric has outrun the reality on that point. +I should also like to say that we are concerned about the question of how much industry should be in Harrogate and there's talk about avoiding the need for compu commuting. +Now commuting is a consequence of human nature to a large extent, people choose to live away from their place of work and if they do choose to live away from their place of work then we'll need a much more authoritarian government than we are likely to see in the next ten or twenty years to stop people from living away from their place of work. +And erm if we attract industry to the town, we'll attract people to the town to do the jobs and we'll have the commuting as well. +And so I would like to discount all this talk about the need to cut down on commuting. +I see this point of view from my own position as a third generation commuter between Harrogate and Leeds, and as a third generation commuter I don't feel that it is a commentary on any absence of jobs in Harrogate or any shortage of jobs in Harrogate that I work in Leeds and live in Harrogate, it's just something I've grown up to think of as natural. +And many other people will choose to live in Harrogate even though they may have employment or L in Leeds or Selby District or Bradford District, and this will continue to happen. +I do not think that the jobs that people in Harrogate will want to find will be jobs in the industrial area and they will tend to be office jobs, and to +some extent they will be found in existing sites. +Now I think the regeneration of the economy of North Yorkshire in general and Harrogate in particular will be a part of the regeneration of the national economy, when things turn right for the nation as a whole, they will turn right for North Yorkshire as a whole and for Harrogate in particular. +Erm any strategy for taking jobs away from other parts of the country towards Harrogate will not solve the nation's problems and it will not in the long term solve North Yorkshire's problems. +I think as jobs come back, jobs will be found as the economy as a whole picks up. +Jobs will be found in Harrogate as elsewhere, and if we're thinking of lumping in the B one office use and the other B uses in with the manufacturing, I think it's fair to say that office uses are going to be far denser in terms of number of jobs per hectare than manufacturing, and therefore the allocations may not seem to be as great as otherwise might have been demanded. +I'll take a pause now +and then reply to any points that are made by anybody else . +Thank you Mr Laycock. +C could I just have your bottom line figure again then for I five. +Fifty three? +Well we'd like to see at lea at least down to fifty but we'd really like to probe and push towards forty if we could. +Thank you. +Mr Allenby do you want to respond to any of those points which Mr Laycock has raised? +Yes please chairman. +Er David Allenby, Harrogate Borough Council. +I've got a number of points I'd like to come back on. +Erm the first relates to car showrooms. +Erm I won't take up the point in relation to the particular site er Mr La Laycock was referring to but in general terms, car showrooms and people who work in car sho showrooms are taken into account in the calculation of employment needs, +Mm. +industrial and commercial employment needs of the area and therefore it is right that car showrooms can be provided on sites allocated under I five. +Er in relation to existing employment sites er and Mr Laycock referred to National Power, erm there we have an example of the attitude that the the council is taking towards the the re-use of employment sites. +In fact we've just refused er the application er to change the use of that site to housing, or some of that site to housing, er for the very reason that we want to keep it in employment use and at the same meeting we also refused another site, another major employment site, erm and we want to keep that in employment use as well. +So we we're taking a consistent line on existing employment sites, we do want to reuse them but we do recognize that there may be circumstances where that er that isn't the case. +On migration, erm I really just wanted to make the point that erm the structure plan and er as supported by the local council is really seeking to meet the needs of the resident population. +Erm the resident population will of course er include a significant proportion of people who are migrating into the district er as we saw last week. +Erm the calculations that we have at the moment take on board the twenty five percent back in migration as proposed in the housing figures. +If migration er increases to a hundred percent of past trends then the employment provision will have to increase also. +Mm. +Er the council's primary concern through all of this is that at the moment there are four thousand unemployed people in Harrogate District. +Er the unemployment rate while still relatively in relation to national and even er regional levels, has increased very rapidly over the last few years and in fact over the last two or three years we've had something like three thousand jobs lost i in Harrogate. +Er the fact that we've had low unemployment rates is due er mainly to the fact that provision was made for employment er in past years, and we want to make provision now to ensure that unemployment is as low as possible in the future. +Erm as to the assertion that Harrogate wants office jobs and not industrial jobs, and I think the main point there is that we we're simply trying to achieve jobs to meet the needs of our resident workforce. +Erm if the if office jobs are appropriate then they'll be provided or we'll seek to provide them, erm some jobs will be industrial jobs and no doubt that there will be office jobs. +It's not for the planning authority +to say what sort of jobs should be provided, but simply to ensure that the jobs that are provided do not have adverse environmental consequences that are are unacceptable. +Er and finally to say that the strategy th that we have is not to take jobs from other areas, it is simply to meet the needs of the resident workforce. +We are not seeking to attract people in er from Leeds or Bradford or anywhere else. +We're simply simply looking to meet the needs of people who will be living in our district. +Thank you. +Mr Laycock? +Yes I should like to come back on one or two of those points. +The Civic Society was naturally very pleased t that we the council turned down the application on the National Power site. +It is our feeling that the council needs to be encouraged to take that attitude because if we have a change of policy as the District Council are asking, so that the number of sites released from industrial use is compensated by new green field sites being allocated, then it seems a little bit like a blank cheque to us and we should like to see a firmer control on the amount of land that is lost to development and in seeing that firmer control we'd like to put pressure on the District Council by not offering them compensation +if they allow industrial sites to become something else. +I do feel on the question of whether we are bringing people into the Harrogate area or catering for the needs of the residential population. +The District Council's argument is in danger of going round in a circle. +Catering for the resident population appears to be include catering for the population that will come into the town in order to do the new work that will be brought to the town by their policies. +The he s Mr Allenby said, the resident populating includ including inward migrants. +Inward migrants will include people who come into the district in order to do the jobs that are provided and there are many examples of employers coming to the town and bringing their own people into the town to do the jobs that are brought into the town. +And there's concern about losing de Ministry of Defence jobs in Harrogate now. +Well the Ministry of Defence came into Harrogate just over fifty years ago and the jobs were done to some e to a large extent by people who might never have come to Harrogate if the Ministry of Defence had not er brought them in. +And to some extent if you do bring jobs into the town which bring new people into the town, when the particular employer that has brought these people into the town or the area closes down, then we have more jobs to find in the area. +But the central argument on the industrial front is that if you bring a large number of extra jobs into an area where the unemployment is much below the national average, and much below the regional average, then you are going to bring people from the surrounding area in and many of those people we believe would far prefer to have found jobs nearer their existing homes. +Thank you. +Mr Lock, sorry Professor Lock? +No? +Can I conclude on Harrogate then and we adjourn for tea until three thirty. +Thank you. +Erm because he would like to make a comment on the exceptions policy, he hasn't been invited to participate tomorrow, er I have exercised some latitude and said yes I will be happy to hear what he has to say, erm there is a prescribed time limit of which he is aware. +The rest of us will take note of what he has to say and we'll bear it in mind tomorrow. +So I'm not looking for a response to what he says at this stage. +Mr Laycock. +Thank you very much Mr chairman. +This follows on for from our concern about industrial development in the Harrogate District and that is that we are very pleased that the Harr that the North Yorkshire County Council has not embarked upon a strategic exceptions policy. +I fear that a strategic exceptions policy can be all too easily a euphemism for giving big companies more favourable treatment than small companies. +Erm so one suspects that if something of truly national importance really came, that it might any planning control might be overridden in the merits in the urgency of the case. +The having adoption of a strategic exceptions policy is an invitation for many possible major developments to be to ride on the back of the strategic in exceptions policies and to argue that they come within in. +And I fear that er it could be a a recipe for bypassing +environmental constraints if the organization is big enough to qualify as strategic, and I am really concerned about the planning er application in which I know that Da Professor Lock is interested that I think developments of that scale have nothing to do with the employment needs of the district, that they would in fact involve bringing in large numbers of people from other areas who as I have said before, might appreciate jobs nearer their present places of employment, and it would also unbalance the Harrogate housing market and put on pressure for more land to be taken in and around Harrogate for housing for the people who'd come to that development. +So I I'm extremely pleased that the County Council have not gone for a strategic exceptions policy . +Thank you very much. +It is a theme which will be returned to tomorrow without doubt. +Professor Lock is nodding his head. +Can we now move to the other erm what I would describe as er item of contention, which is the amount of provision proposed for Richmondshire. +Mr Steel. +Mr chairman, erm, all my comments er er relate to I five, not er to I twelve. +Erm in moving from Selby and er these other matters to er Richmondshire, we're moving fr from the er macro to the micro. +Er I almost said su sublime to the ridiculous but I thought that might be misinterpreted. +I would never describe Richmondshire as ridiculous. +Thank you chairman. +If only everybody agreed with you. +Erm we've been given an allocation er in this er in these alterations of twenty five hectares. +We feel this er this will hamper economic development in the district, it'll prevent us er achieving the proposals set out in er in our local plan and we're asking for thirty five hectares, an increase of ten hectares only. +You've er got a copy of my written statement and I'll try to avoid repeating anything from that document, but it leans heavily on this which is the Richmondshire local plan interim statement. +Erm it runs through the strategy that we're pursuing,i it er highlights the problems that er erm th that exist in the district, it stresses the need for flexibility and it concludes with an appendix which sets out the actual sites that we would like to see developed erm er over the next er ten years which is the length of the erm covered by the Richmondshire local plan. +Having read through the er N Y N Y six and N Y seven, I've got to acknowledge that it's er far from easy to draw up a unified strategy for employment land in North Yorkshire and I can sympathize with the County Council er in their difficulties with the methodology and I think that they've adopted a very fair minded approach to this, they've er highlighted weaknesses wherever they occur, erm and I think that will be very obvious. +That leads me to conclude that the only way to erm resolve matters is through consensus and I'm sure that that's essentially what we're about today. +In fact erm, when I looked in detail at the written submission by the County Council, I found that er they ha th they said that they were placing emphasis on er on local factors. +Now these local factors are not going to be strategic in nature er but they are important and er the er the County Council er concede this point. +Erm in relation to Craven, the local view was taken into account, it says quite clearly in paragraph five of er N Y seven. +Er in Hambleton's case, it's recognized that the allocation may be an over-provision but because of local plan proposals er an increase is merited, paragraph fifty one of N Y seven. +Harrogate's figure er was increased after after representations by the er Borough Council, that's paragraph fifty six of N Y seven. +Scarborough, adequate flexibility of land supply, that's a quote, it was referred to as a reason for greatly increasing the allocation above that which emerged from the er statistical work, paragraph seventy six of N Y seven and erm in Selby's case erm, land potentially available is recognized to be an important consideration, paragraph seventy eight of N Y seven. +Er Mr Curtis opened er the session today er mentioning the the same sort of consideration had been given in York. +Now when I was preparing this evidence, I got to this point and I thought to myself, why on earth has this not happened in Richmondshire? +And I can only really regret with er with hindsight that er we as a District Council didn't pursue our point er more vigorously, erm as our general approach to these matters is er to cooperate as far as we possibly can rather than enter into conflict, and I think that perhaps we hadn't given as much emphasis to er the er our views as we ought to have done. +Having said that, erm we we discussed these matters er in early nine nineteen ninety one at officer level, we set out a out a long letter setting out our concerns er in December nineteen ninety one. +In relation to the consultation draft erm we er in April nineteen ninety two, we explained that we we believed that er erm the figure of twenty five hectares was not so far er adrift from our local plan proposals to merit an objection or merit treatment as a departure. +Er that didn't draw any response from the County Council, so in er December nineteen ninety two when er when the deposit draft came through er we sought a clear understanding of the County Council position. +We chased that letter in er March nineteen ninety three and er finally we wrote in July nineteen ninety three the letter which I've copied round er. +Now you'll see in the final paragraph, er no in the second paragraph of that letter that er we're still looking for a er an amicable solution to erm to this whole thing. +But we haven't had a response from the County Council. +Now I'm I find it particularly strange that paragraph sixty one of N Y seven doesn't give any hint erm that the District Council was concerned about I I five figures until we were +Mm. +small sites. +The sort of sites you'd expect to see allocated in a local plan. +Now I think that er the County Council have reworked their figures and are probably pretty close to us now on on these matters. +Erm perhaps no more than two hectares adrift, so if I could just emphasize that that land availability figure is round about thirty five hectares. +Erm the the County Council have er highlighted open countryside as as a consideration that concerns them and er that's in paragraph ninety seven of er N Y seven. +And I think it's of particular concern in Richmondshire. +That paragraph refers to high quality of environment and agricultural land quality as factors which would have a bearing on the distribution of er erm employment land, and I just want to er assure the panel that I don't think any of the allocations that we've made er on the strength of the erm er consultations that we've entered into would cause problems er for either qual high quality environment or high quality agricultural land. +I regard them as quite firm and realistic er allocations. +Erm I'd like to pitch another figure into the debate, er because I don't agree with the County Council on this either. +Erm I've circulated a map which shows the nineteen eighty one figures for commuting. +Erm the the erm figure for the whole of the district which is taken from the nineteen eighty one census is fifteen percent of the workforce working outside Richmondshire. +Tha that's a pretty simple sort of basis for assessment, but as you'll see from the map it's not by no means a consis consistent level and in the areas where we're erm where where the sites for the most part occur, er the c the level of commuti commuting is much greater than it is er outside those areas. +The er the only figure that I I can find for commuting erm supplied by the County Council is in er table five of N Y six I think it is, N Y six, where the County Council give er at the bottom of that erm on the bottom line of that table, a figure for Richmondshire of er three point five percent. +I'm I'm really mentioning th this for the record because I don't think it er it goes to the heart of the issue since erm the the erm Richmondshire allocation does not depend on these figures, but I do want to emphasize that er doing something about the commuting problem is an issue in Richmondshire. +Mhm. +And just for the record there's an there's an error, a typographical error in the middle of that er table, there's a zero and there should another figure. +Erm, having looked at all that, I think what the issue really boils down to essentially is the willingness of the County Council and I suppose the panel, having heard what er the debate, to accept what I think is really a modest level of flexibility er er requested by the District Council. +That flexibility is needed for the following reasons. +It er it meets the er the terms of government advice, it enables us to provide the sort of range of er sites that er we we feel we need to erm attack the problem of er economic development. +It provides for alternative sites to be available in the knowledge that not all sites are gonna become available by the very nature of the exercise, that is what happens. +It also has regard to the fact that er some land will be lost to development which is taking place under the terms of policy I four. +Er nobody's mentioned this policy before, but I four relates to the expansion and relocation of existing firms. +It's a c makes a considerable contribution +Mm. +to erm the the pattern of development going on in Richmondshire and I suspect in other districts as well, having read through their their evidence. +Erm it's also acknowledged in paragraph thirteen of N Y six, but this this factor means that some of the development which takes place on the on a land allocated for I five won't actually go towards meeting the I five target, it'll be lost in terms of I four. +The these are all reasons why there needs to be flexibility. +Erm I noticed er with interest that in the Greater York context the County Council seem happy to offer this flexibility, that there they call it a bias towards opportunities for development which I'm quite happy to accept that term if er if it er improves our position . +Erm I've looked at the question of whether there's a down side to er what we're talking about, I've nearly finished chairman. +It's alright. +Erm, because the County Council +they've talked about the problems of oversupply in two er two respects, sterilization of land. +This is not er a realistic scenario in the Richmondshire context. +Land er which is allocated for development through this plan will either remain in agriculture or er will be developed. +I don't think there's a remote possibility that it's going to hang about in a kind of semi-derelict state er, because erm somebody's invested in infrastructure, altered its character but there are no takers for erm for the the development which follows from that. +That's not a realistic position. +Now the the second point raised by the County Council is the their concern that residential development will be unsynchronized with employment development. +And I I noticed with interest er I'm really going shifting right back to er last week here, er the Housebuilders' Federation er were all sort of putting the reverse argument forward. +They they erm er in their document identified er the fact that Richmondshire is getting six point one percent of the housing allocation and five point one percent of the employment allocation. +I'm mentioning this simply to er highlight the fact that if there is a bit of an upward movement in er the employment allocation, it'll simply re-synchronize it with the housing allocation. +Now I know those are pretty crude figures but it's an item of evidence. +Erm the District Council isn't being arbitrary in er in this respect. +We er we've tried to er to meet the the the County Council's requirements, we've scaled down our original er provision of erm employment land to take account of the emerging structure plan thinking. +We er went as far as we could without er erm finding that we would have to delete allocations that we were making or produce unrealistic er development sites erm the the figure of er twenty five hectares simply means that we're ratcheting the the whole thing down to a point at which it can't be sustained. +Erm I I know with certainty that the thirty five hectare that we're ask hectares that we're asking for can be achieved, because we know the sites that er that where development will take place. +Erm the final point is that er the the er the County Council have suggested in paragraph five of N Y seven that certain matters could be held over to complete review of the er er structure plan. +I would not want this er this issue to be treated in that way and I'm sure the panel won't do that. +And a absolutely finally, all my comments have been related to the area of Richmondshire outside the Yorkshire Dales National Park. +You answered one of the questions I was going to pose to you. +Erm in effect what you're s what you're asking for is the level of provision to return to something equivalent to what it is in the approved structure plan er and also would reflect fairly careful analysis of what you've done as to what would be reasonable allocations. +Absolutely chairman. +Thank you. +Mr Potter. +David Potter, North Yorkshire County Council. +Er taking some of the points that have been raised by Mr Steel. +Erm Mr Steel's quite correct, in determining the appropriate level of provision for Richmondshire and other districts, we I essentially followed the the course of action which you've outlined in the background papers. +Following the publication of er draft figures, I discussed these with the districts, and where it was felt appropriate to take on board s er suggestions made by the districts, this was done. +A number of meetings have been held with District Councils over the period of the preparation of the plan. +The amendments that Mr Steel refers to specifically, relating to other districts, were all made as a direct consequence of those districts making formal representations to the consultation draft. +The formal representations made by Richmondshire suggested that there was no conflict with the proposed provision in the consultation draft and their local plan strategy. +At the deposit plan stage, again no clear formal objection was made by the district as to the inappropriateness of this particular level of provision. +The discussions between the County Council and the District Council go back some considerable time, over the proposed level of provision in the district statement erm the core strategy for employment, and there is a particular issue between us over the distribution of this land within the district, in terms of its compatibility with the structure plan strategy. +The figures that er Mr Steel referred to on commuting flows neglect to refer to the inflow of commuters, the figures that I've used are a net is a net figure which reflects outflow and inflow. +Work would be a crude er a crude assessment er between nineteen ei nineteen ninety one census of employment data and nineteen ninety one census data would indicate that there is a greater inflow of commuters now than in nineteen eighty one, although I accept that that is crude and I wouldn't like to +Mm. +rely on that particularly. +With regard to the Greater York bias, the Greater York bias he refers to is simply a bias towards where the opportunities for development exist in Greater York, it is not a bias in any other sense than in terms of its distribution. +We had to look at where the opportunities were for development in Greater York as a whole rather than looking at individual district elements, and in terms of land available, erm Mr Steel appears to have included some sites which we classify as land held in reserve, which we don't normally count towards the land availability targets, although we do acknowledge that it is there. +That is t to er that is land which is held for expansion purposes, clearly identified by firms as meeting their expansion needs. +We note it but we don't include it within the land availability figures in relation to erm policy I four. +And with ret with er land availability erm with regard to the land availability figures, Mr Steel also includes a s a site of some ten hectares which the County Council has formally objected to in terms of a planning application lodged and in terms of the distributional strategy of the local plan. +If that is excluded, then we come back down towards the twenty five hectares. +Mr Steel? +Paul Steel, er chairman, Richmondshire. +Erm just a correction er really chairman. +I er I've discussed these availability figures and I think it's important in Richmondshire's case er to get the answer right. +Erm, talked about them to County Council staff only today. +The there is a core of them which is land available in terms of this document. +That is something like twenty five twenty seven hectares. +The land held in reserve in Richmondshire's case is not just land held in reserve for existing firms to expand on, but also includes three sites which are identified in this document as being reserved for development after two thousand and one, between two thousand and one and two thousand and six. +Those three sites amount to eleven plus hectares. +That's where I get my erm total of thirty s thirty five +Mhm. +give or take. +The second point I can't just er +Is the question or the point that Mr Potter raised about the ten hectare site to which the County Council objects? +Yeah. +Is that is that part of your thirty six hectares? +It's part of the thirty six hectares chairman but it's only a seven hectare site. +Seven hectare site. +We're straying into what I think are probably local plan issues here really , +Mm, yes, yes. +er arguing about the merits of individual sites. +Er I could go on at great length about it if you wish me to but I'm sure you don't. +No, no. +Mr Potter, can I come back to you. +Bearing in mind that Mr Steel probably on his own admission has said he's been a bit late out of the starting blocks in order to make his bid for a review of the allocations, er I mean how do you feel in response to that? +Would you be minded to move move the Richmondshire figure back to where it is in the at least in the +approved structure plan? +David Potter, North Yorkshire County Council. +Erm the approach we've adopted is to try and be as flexible as possible in terms of the using both the land-take and the economic activity rates. +Er and in the lack of any specific response or request from the District Council on the flexibility issue, we I feel that those that allocation of twenty five hectares +is broadly appropriate, but I would add that within the letter to the District Council objecting to the particular site, I do acknowledge that there is no suitable site available in the district for the the park. +Mhm. +I think the question which is critical to us is how would an additional ten hectares in Richmondshire harm the strategic objectives of the County Council? +I think it depends where it is. +Are you saying it is impossible for Richmondshire to find an additional ten hectares? +No. +Would doing that which would be acceptable to you, +Yes, if it provided the additional flexibility +would doing that harm the County Council's objectives? +I think looking at it in terms of an overall position, I think that . +I beg your pardon? +The answer is no. +I think the answer is no in local terms. +Thank you. +Now er the other districts have sat patiently and quietly through this discussion. +I've taken the view that since you all appear to be happy with the provision made for you in I five, you don't wish to make any comment? +Or do you want to have a chance to say something in the light of the way the discussion's progressed during the day? +Right, now then can I pose a question to you, Mrs, well it's a collective question really for all the districts. +If the density of workers to the hectare was changed from forty three to thirty four with a consequent increase in the allocation of provision, could you cope with that? +Would it, are there any districts where that would raise serious problems? +Yes it would be equivalent actually Mr Steel to the, well yes. +Mr Curtis cannot get another +I'm not gonna stop you from talking Mr Curtis but I +Mr Curtis. +Thank you chair, David Curtis, York City Council. +Erm my only comment really would obviously be in relation to the Greater York situation. +Yeah. +Erm if I understand it correctly from from Mr Potter's er table nine, the implication would be that the the Greater York figure would go up to a hundred and sixty one hectares based on thirty four to the acr hectare, that is correct? +That's correct yes. +Clearly that would require a further erm sixteen hectares to be found compared to the hundred and forty five because the hundred and forty five did include an allowance for flexibility in the first place? +Yes, yes. +Erm, there are no agreed sites at the present time. +There are other sites which my authority might note on that basis but which are not agreed with the County Council so I would be quite content with an increase in the Greater York figure on that basis. +But clearly the County Council may not agree with me. +Yes, yes. +I won't ask you Mr Heselton, +Two hundred to two hundred and fifty is very flexible. +Mr Williamson. +Er yes chairman erm I don't think erm Ray Williamson, Scarborough Council. +Erm I don't think we have any real difficulty with dealing with an extra erm as I calculate it around about fifty acres. +Yes hectares, not acres. +Well no I don't +Alright. +think we we're talking about hectares in this case, we'll be talking around about twenty twenty hectares. +Yeah. +And I do I don't think we'd have any particular difficulty in coping with that increase. +Erm thank you. +Mr Steel. +Paul Steel, Richmondshire, chairman. +Er the County Council did not use the erm calculation of need which would be affected by the proposition you've just put forward based on land-take, past land-take. +Past land-take is an absolute thing which doesn't depend on density +Yeah, yeah, yeah. +so I'm ducking out of. +You are right, okay. +How about Craven? +Er Sharon Watson, er Craven District. +Erm I think based on table nine erm the increase er by thirty four workers per hectare would cause Craven some problems. +Mhm. +Er in environmental terms +erm we're already to release green field site which has been fairly environmentally sensitive +er we'd have to insist upon a extensive landscaping compensations, erm er to in order for it to be to go ahead, er so I think the increase we would be looking at environmentally sensitive site. +Yes, yes. +I mean s sorry, just just to press you erm you wouldn't be unhappy if you stayed at twenty five hectares would you? +No. +No we'd be happy with twenty five hectares. +Right, thank you. +Mr Smith Mr Smith. +Ian Smith, Ryedale. +I'm not quite sure what how much the figure for Ryedale within Greater York would actually go up, erm placed on thirty four workers per hectare. +Mr Potter you +Er David David Potter, North Yorkshire County Council. +Erm the figure for Ryedale +would increase overall by about five hectares or so. +In the Greater York area? +Erm no outside Greater York. +Outside Greater York yes. +I th I think outside Greater York we could probably cope with that. +Yes. +The figures we were given this morning indicate that in within the Greater York area, the increase would be from sixteen point three to twenty point six. +Mhm. +I mean, Ian Smith, Ryedale. +We're already accommodating erm +Yeah. +forty three hectares of land in Greater York anyway, erm I'm not sure +how we would accommodate much more with a very tight greenbelt on the erm the sites that we've actually allocated on our side of Ryedale and take account of greenbelt so . +Mr Allenby? +Chairman, David Allenby, Harrogate Borough Council. +No I don't think it would cause us er any real problems, we're talking about er an increase of about five hectares, my understanding, er I think that could be accommodated er in line with what we already intend to do erm in the local plan anyway. +My arithm my arithmetic makes it about nearly fourteen hectares. +I think that's a +Am I interpreting these columns wrongly Mr Potter? +Fifty one point nine nine to sixty five point seven five? +Yeah, sixty five point seven five er the rest of the district. +Yeah, yeah . +If if you add on the Greater York requirement of thirty hectares it goes up to about ninety five hectares. +Yeah, yeah. +So overall it's only about five hectares. +Five thank you. +Yeah it's five. +Okay, yeah. +Mr Jewitt. +Michael Jewitt, Hambleton District Council. +Er well chairman it doesn't really affect the Hambleton figure. +Erm the worker density figure really relates to the job gap calculation erm which for Hambleton showed substantially less than the seventy hectares provided for in er the proposed policy, it showed thirty one hectares. +Er if the council didn't have any confidence erm in this figure but if erm you apply the er revised worker dens density to the thirty one hectares, you get thirty nine hectares, which reduces the gap +Yeah. +between the job gap +Yeah. +calculation and the land-take calculation so it wouldn't present us with any erm particular +No, no. +problems. +In fact you're happy with your seventy hectares? +Er absolutely. +Thank you. +Mr Laycock? +Yes I think you can guess what the Harrogate Civic Society is +Yes I can. +but er if er we would oppose the recalculation on the basis of the lower density +Yes, yes. +most of the jobs that are likely to be needed in the s in the Harrogate area would be office or administrative jobs where a higher density would survive. +Yeah. +Thank you. +Now erm yeah, Craven? +Sharon Watson, Craven District. +Can I just er clarify a point? +Erm the table nine that er the county produce this morning erm has erm a reassessed requirement for Craven based on erm economic activity monitor data,plus relocation allowances. +Now we would be happy with the thirty three hectares for Craven, twenty five hectares +Yes. +support. +You've made that clear yeah . +Yeah . +I just wondered whether that point . +Er well there are still, come back to the county, can we now round off on the question of keep losing my crib sheet here the effect what effect if any will the proposed scale of provision have on adjoining areas in West Yorkshire. +Mr Girt, you have er your chance, to kick off on this one. +Thank you chair, Dave +I take it I take it you're representing Leeds or are you speaking also on behalf of your colleague from Bradford? +I'm speaking on behalf of Leeds City Council. +Right thank you. +Erm you'll recall the City Council's objection was both to the level and the distribution of employment land in North Yorkshire, er in particular as far as it relates to the likely effects on regeneration in West Yorkshire and in Leeds in particular. +You've heard before that Leeds works within the rules of the framework set down by regional planning guidance, and that makes very and the main stream of that guidance is the revitalization of our inner areas. +Regeneration's still a major problem in Leeds, if I could just give you some some rough and ready figures chairman. +A quick calculation suggests there are over a hundred and sixty brown field sites of an industrial type and they amount to something like three hundred and sixty hectares. +So we got a very substantial problem still to overcome in Leeds. +I haven't heard yet from anybody that regeneration's properly been taken into account in the calculations within local level or county level. +It simply hasn't been demonstrated that any cognizance has been made of R P G two, therefore that these concerns still remain on the table. +Can I have, can I have a county response to that point? +David Potter, North Yorkshire County Council. +Erm perhaps I can turn the the question on its head and and I think the way the County Council's looked at it, what would be the implications of not providing for the needs of North Yorkshire, and that's I think the approach that we have taken in the first instance, is to try and determine what the needs of North Yorkshire are and to borrow a phrase from Professor Lock, in strategic terms to look at er try to achieve full employment in North Yorkshire. +That has been a primary objective. +Are you arguing Mr Girt that the level of provision of employment land proposed by North Yorkshire County Council is excessive, bearing in mind your request that the County Council should at the same time cater for one hundred percent of past migration trends, including that coming from the Leeds Metropolitan Area? +Or are you saying that the level of provision the County Council propose for employment is excessive bearing in mind that they do not propose to cater for one hundred percent migration? +Erm, Dave Girt, Leeds City Council. +make it look simpler than that. +We're simply saying that it's not been demonstrated that regeneration of West Yorkshire's been taken into account. +We're not saying the figure's necessarily excessive, we're simply looking to see how regeneration of West Yorkshire's been taken into account, if at all. +And then we can be in a position to to judge. +And how, how +Erm +figure er to some extent is plucked from the air, it's a figure in excess of the two basic ingredients of the job gap and the +take-up trend er ingredients +to the formulation of the figure. +Other +Other aspects necessarily need to be taken into account. +And Leeds acknowledges that one of the things the other things that needs to be taken into account by North Yorkshire if if R P G two is to be conformed with, is the need to revitalize West Yorkshire. +But I'm sorry, I think it's necessary for me to pursue the point I was making. +If the panel is satisfied and indeed you are satisfied that the level of provision in North Yorkshire is necessary to provide employment for those persons who will be resident in North Yorkshire, what is the problem? +Well, if the panel's satisfied, Madam, chair erm there's no problem. +At the end of the day +each district, Metropolitan District and County District will want some freedom to determine its figures. +We're simply saying it's government policy that North Yorkshire takes account of the regeneration needs of West Yorkshire. +At the moment there's no indication that they've done anything, it's almost as though that particular prescription was . +I sense that you are suggesting the County Council should have done more than write a paragraph or two +in the explanatory memorandum of alteration number three, which say we have had regard to the regeneration needs of West Yorkshire? +Nevertheless we have arrived at the same figures. +Dave Girt, Leeds City Council. +Yes it wasn't more than a token reference. +We need to see that they have taken it into account. +What +so far as they have made some er adjustment, we will be able to judge whether the scale of adjustment they've made was a was a reasonable thing. +I'm sorry. +Can you be more explicit about what it is you want to see in the North Yorkshire structure plan? +I'm not,City Council, I'm not sure that I can be more specific about we need to see some reference and some +indication of some adjustment to a calculation of er employment land allocation. +In other words what +I take +I mean what you're looking for is a reduction or what you would have liked to have seen a reduction in the land allocation for employment needs, and yet in the other breath you are saying to North Yorkshire, you should really cater for one hundred percent migration. +Now you can't have it both ways, surely? +Dave Girt, Leeds City Council. +We're not asking R P G two has to have it both ways if if that idea is er is there at all. +Mr Williamson. +Yes thank you chairman. +Take us out of this maze. +I'm not sure I can take you take you out of it . +Ken Williamson North Yorkshire County Council. +Er all I can say chairman is that the County Council is is working within the approved structure plan strategy which is based on restraint, based primarily on housing restraint but I think that's what the County Council has done in its er employment land proposals is to set certain parameters which appear to us to really reasonably meet requirements of this authority's resident population. +Erm we are not going any further than that erm we the debate this morning erm we were looking at the differences between ourselves and then for example Selby District of what what they would like to see which was er certainly more than growth oriented the County Council's proposals are. +Erm we've feel we've gone as far as it's practical to go to to meet erm what are after all the genuine needs of genuine needs of our own population. +Now if we don't do that of course we er we're going to change lots of patterns, we're going to potentially increase er commuting out of the area into Leeds, that's not something which we feel is consistent with er planning policy guidance in the realm erm, I don't think there's anything as far as I know in R P G two which er says that adjoining authorities around West Yorkshire shouldn't er seek to make provision reasonable provision for their own er residents' needs. +Dave Girt, Leeds City Council. +No there is . +Dave Girt, Leeds City Council. +No there isn't a specific statement in er R P G two. +There is a statement that asks and directs the County Council to take account of the need to r revitalize West Yorkshire and as far as we can see that hasn't been done. +Now I I don't want to tell the County Council how to do it, I mean I think that's that's up to the County Council +But I'm begging you to tell the panel how to do it please. +Well it's not my job. +As I understand it a and please correct me if I've got it wrong, in the interests of the Leeds Metropolitan Area, you have argued that North Yorkshire should make greater provision for residential . +Is that correct? +Yes . +You have also argued that any generation of increased commuting +should be avoided. +Is that correct? +Madam, chair, we would certainly wish to commuting as far as that's possible. +D does is not follow from that that you would argue that North Yorkshire to av to achieve those two ends needs to make adequate provision for the employment of the people it will house? +Dave Girt, Leeds City Council. +I think it's a question of degree. +Commuting will continue, the the boundaries of local government areas bear no relation to social geography. +Leeds City Council does not expect within its plan period nor does it expect within the period of the North Yorkshire alterations, commuting will disappear. +It will continue, but the kinds of jobs which are available in Leeds city centre, er in in some ways are unlikely ever to be provided in particularly in rural districts, precisely because Leeds is the regional capital. +Some of those +Yes. +jobs are not jobs you would expect to find in villages or large towns +Can I just +so commuting will always continue. +Yes. +Can I put it another way to you, that if houses are provided for people who have migrated from West Yorkshire to North Yorkshire, that the failure to provide for employment of an equivalent level, because I well appreciate we are not going to stop Mr Laycock driving or commute I beg your pardon commuting each day from Harrogate to Leeds, that failure failure to provide an adequate level of employment for those new residents would be contrary to the advice in P P G twelve and P P G 14 about reducing the need to travel? +I accept, Dave Girt, Leeds City Council, yes I accept that that would be consistent with the government's advice in those particular P P Gs. +Now could I could I just er enlighten that? +Yes of course. +Erm you you bring me onto the second dimension of Leeds' objection which is to do with the distribution of those jobs. +Leeds has asked that migration continue to be accommodated in Craven, Harrogate and er Hambleton but we've objected to the idea of a new settlement in Selby and our main concern is with major employment focused in the Leeds York corridor, and that's the substance of our objection. +The scale of employment suggested in Selby seems not to be er reflecting the restraint policy suggested in R P G two. +Now to some extent our concerns have been diffused, it seems that we misunderstood the distribution, er we now know, thanks to this morning that the hundred and forty five hectares for Greater York is on the inside edge of the York greenbelt and not footloose in the Leeds York corridor. +Yeah. +Erm to that extent Leeds concerns are much diminished. +I'm I'm a little unclear exactly how much footloose allocation remains in Selby, I I er think I understand it to be quite small, taking account of , but I would simply say to the panel Leeds' concern is that we should not be a counter focus in that corridor, which er most most greatly bear on our attempts to regenerate our inner areas and use our our many brown field sites. +Yeah that's okay. +Mr Cunnane, and then Mr Heselton and then Mr Williams. +Er Joe Cunnane, J C Cunnane Associates. +Erm the point I would like to make is is is in part made by Mr Girt, and that is that er with particular reference to Selby. +Er Selby have as I und as I can see it today, failed to establish any need for the bid for two hundred two hundred and fifty hectares which they've put forward. +The figure which has been put forward by the county of a hundred and twenty two hectares for Selby deals with three elements. +It deals with local need, it deals with planned migration and it deals with unemployment. +And therefore it must by definition be the case that anything over and above the one hundred and twenty two which I know Selby have not challenged on on on the basis of the assessment, er anything over and above that hundred and twenty two must siphon investment and economic activity from somewhere else because it's not local, it's not it's not unemployed, it's not local needs and it's not migration. +And our concern is that if that figure is appro is is agreed or recommended by the panel or it's gonna to be taken by the county that there is something in the order of a hundred and thirty hectares of employment land which is going to take investment from somewhere. +It may not be from West Yorkshire but it's very likely that it will be. +It could be from South Yorkshire. +Mr Heselton? +Er thank you sir. +Erm Terry Heselton, Selby District. +Erm in response first to Mr Mr Cunnane's point. +Erm cos I I think Mr Mr Potter and others have already referred to the fact that it there's no evidence as yet that er demand is being siphoned off from from West Yorkshire to Selby. +Erm coming back to Mr Mr Girt's points +erm if we can't satisfy him in terms of what we've already submitted to the panel satisfy him in in terms of our actions. +Er for the panel's information, Selby District er at any rate has not objected to Leeds City's proposals in in their U D P for development in within their administrative area which as I mentioned this morning are very substantial. +Er approximately eight hundred hectares I think, and I suppose the cynical amongst us might might say what has the allocation of of nearly a hundred hectares of land adjacent to the A one, some of which is in in greenbelt, what has that got anything to do with the er vitality of of Leeds commercial centre or urban regeneration, but we accept that's a that's a matter for Leeds, we not objecting to their proposals. +But by by the same token, as as I've already set out in in my submission, we we believe there is an urgent need and a justifiable demand in Selby District and that's partly related to the need to have a distribution of available employment opportunities throughout the district. +Er much reference has already been made to this er golden corridor between Leeds a and York and I I really fail to see th that it is going to pose the the threat that some people think it will and and the analysis that we've carried carried out has has thrown up two two figures, one in the region of twenty er a need of twenty to twenty five hectares in what describe as a northern centre based on on Tadcaster and I think we acknowledge that er we may struggle to achieve those twenty to twenty five hectares in and around Tadcaster, partly because of greenbelt constraint and and partly because of other constraints. +And coming back to the twenty to twenty five hectare requirement within Greater York, as I've already mentioned most of that is is in fact al already committed so I I really don't see the problem in in the Leeds York corridor. +Thank you. +Before before Mr Williamson sums up, we've one or two questions. +In relation to policy I five if I may. +And in posing these questions I well appreciate that the terms in which I five is presented are exactly those in the approved structure plan, with the exception of the deletion of the specific references to certain town centres and provision. +Nevertheless +Sorry are you talking about I twelve? +I beg your pardon, I twelve. +Nevertheless undaunted, since things have moved on a bit since nineteen eighty seven, I suppose what I'm looking for is some guidance as to the way in which policy I twelve has operated in practice. +And if I can identify some of the thoughts which occurred to me and they are relatively minor points about the wording of I five in relation to the first two criteria. +Would significantly improve the scale and range of local job opportunities. +Have there been any difficulties in the interpretation and application of that policy in relation to the scale of what is really there on the ground? +I think for example of the sensitivity of some of the small market towns, the point for example that was made to us last week about the sensitivity one settlement with which I've come increasingly familiar over the last fortnight and that is town centre. +Is that a problem, or is it not a problem? +The second thought is in relation to the second criteria, in view of the move of government policy in particular P P G 4 would it be helpful sensible to include the word under-used in terms would increase the use of vacant under- used or derelict premises and sites? +And my final point is in effect a question. +Do do these criteria operate independently or do they all have to be met to be acceptable? +And a final thought, did I say the last one, that one +Yes. +was the final thought? +This is this is the final final thought. +No it isn't, it's gone. +Professor Lock would erm have something to say if I raised the final one so I shan't do that. +Mr Potter. +David Potter, North Yorkshire County Council. +Erm I think I ought to be brief on this. +One of the problems with I twelve and the numerical content of I twelve is that it's very difficult to differentiate between offices and services, it's proved impossible to monitor. +We have no information on the way in fact the way in which I twelve worked. +Er when it comes down to application at the local sense then at the local level, I think my colleagues might be able to er give more enlightenment on that. +In, with regard to the change of wording, erm I think that would probably add to the policy rather than detract from it and I I think the conclusion I would come to is that the criteria are independent they're not and or or. +Er I think that's all I can say on it. +Thank you for that. +Do any of the District Planning Officers want to comment? +Mr Curtis. +David Curtis, York City Council. +Erm clearly in York we are dealing with a different scale of of urban centre than the one the Senior Inspector was referring to. +All I would say that er notwithstanding the conservation constraints within the city centre, we have not found this policy erm unhelpful as it were, we have been able to conform with the terms of this policy and allow appropriate levels of er commercial development within the city centre. +And I would also support Mr Potters in the addition of the under-used term would I think be beneficial to the policy. +Thank you. +Mr Jewitt? +Thank you chairman. +Er Michael Jewitt, Hambleton District Council. +Erm with reference to er Easingwold. +Erm the si the iss er the point raised by the Senior Inspector. +I I would say it's not been an issue, erm in the small market towns and i the er criterion erm I therefore has not presented problems er to Hambleton. +I would say though erm that erm if we were faced with er significant erm office er proposals that generated er generated a significant number of jobs then er the environmental issues would be weighed by the policies in the plan and er they would need to be weighed against the job creation. +Erm I don't think er on balance I don't think that that criterion causes any problems. +Thank you. +Er policy I twelve I don't think has caused us any particular problems in Skipton which is where the main office developments have been er taking place, I think I would reiterate some of the comments +Yeah. +that Mr Jewitt made. +Erm the inclusion of under-used land in er criterion number two I think would be helpful. +Can I say don't feel obliged to answer if if I take it that your silence means acquiescence then I'm quite happy. +Mr Allenby? +David Allenby, Harrogate Borough Council. +I just wanted I was trying to rack my brain to see when er we've had real regard to this policy +It must be a good +Do you do you want to rephrase that? +Yes erm when this policy has been a significant issue in dealing with either the local plan or er +planning applications, erm the sort of locational aspects are important, the the existing policy in the structure plan did have some sort of control over the the number of jobs, but it's as as David Potter has said, it's been very difficult to monitor er the level of jobs being provided, and in practice it's been really impossible to implement that aspect of of the policy. +Erm I don't think that the poli ha policy has caused us any problems in the past and I don't think the policy as proposed now will cause us any problems either. +Yeah. +Can I put it another way, has it got more benefits than dis- 5 Erm, D +Yes. +Thank you. +Mr Williamson or Mr, sorry Mr Laycock did you want to say something? +thanks Mr chairman an or between one and two and an and between two and three please. +You want an or between one and two +Yes. +and an and between two and three. +Comments please. +That's making it er or well it's or and isn't it? +Mr chairman that it should comply with three and one of the other two. +Yeah, yes, yes, yes. +Mm. +I I took Mr Jewitt's contribution or comment really on that to to almost confirm the way in which you suggested the additional wording, but I paused. +I'm sorry chair Michael Jewitt, Hambleton. +I'm sorry chairman, you've lost me there I +Well you said that er as I recall, that if you had a major proposal say for example within the centre of Easingwold, +Yes, yes of course. +then you would take account of environmental issues. +What Mr Laycock is suggesting is that a proposal will significantly improve or +Yeah. +so you've the flexibility there. +Yeah well I I would suggest that criterion three is perhaps implicit in the other policies of the plan and may not be +Yeah. +needed +Yeah. +in any event. +Mm. +Yeah. +Alright. +Mr chairman if we do leave out number three it would be suggests that one and two are exceptions to the rest of the policies. +Mm. +Yes. +Yeah. +We we take the point. +Mr I think we can sorry Professor Lock. +David Lock sir, it's like a game of poker this, I wasn't sure how long to sit there with my face straight. +Erm the fact of the matter is sir as you'll have detected from today's earlier discussions it rather suits me policy I twelve because it gives a local authority the ability to plan for employment development in addition to their I five allocation. +Erm however erm it it does sound as though it's one of these policies where as I suspected and said earlier today that it really doesn't have any effect on anything and it's probably something that could be erm crossed out and nobody would even notice it had gone. +However as the you've heard so much needed +Mm. +provision for employment land made under policy I five. +And that would put into that policy the flexibility that we have been given orally today and which Selby and myself and I think Richmondshire I'm not sure, were were erm seeking for a local plan level determination. +Thank you. +Mr Curtis. +Mr Curtis? +Thank you chairman, David Curtis, York City Council. +Just just a little bit concerned about the suggestion that I twelve might actually be dropped in that it is my understanding and Mr Potter hopefully will confirm this, that in calculating the land requirements of I five, he has specifically excluded +Yes. +activities that would be covered by I twelve, therefore if you removed I twelve you would require recalculation of the +Yeah. +areas under I five. +I think if I was about say Professor Lock that if I twelve was dispensed with you might notice a difference in terms of the application of I five. +Yes. +Thank you. +Can we move now to summing up by North Yorkshire? +Yes, alright. +And there was the er question which we posed at two o'clock, which was your reaction, reflections on +the method of calculation of land provision that Professor Lock floated this morning. +Er David Potter, North Yorkshire County Council. +I was rather hoping you'd forgotten that one. +As as I see it er it's and I I may be corrected on this, Professor Lock's hypothesis is that we over-provide land and then limit release once an +Yes. +agreed level of jobs is achieved. +Erm having considered this, I think that what we've tried to do in the economic activity projections is to try and estimate job need and to try and balance that with an appropriate level of provision to meet that need. +If we were to deliberately over-provide, then I think it would be difficult to put a brake on this once a certain level of jobs had been reached, once the land is committed, there is a certain certainty attached to that commitment and I wonder how that would sit with the er guidance on development plans. +Mm. +Mm. +Er secondly, land could be allocated to meet a range of needs in a variety of locations and after monitoring, if we had met a certain level of job targets, those jobs may be on a limited number of sites. +We may be in the position where the jobs are not necessarily all in the right place. +All the sites that are left are those which are better related to the urban areas or where the needs are. +Erm market demand will take the easier site to develop first. +Er and thirdly I think I've covered that already, it's it perhaps fails to provide the certainty which we the development plan system is supposed now to to . +I think it might tax the policy writers' ingenuity to write it. +I think the the problem that we've already tried to address today is how to calculate the need. +Mm. +Thank you. +Now do you want to round up. +Thank you chairman. +Ken Williamson, North Yorkshire County Council. +Chairman, I don't really want to say very much er by way of rounding up I think that we've had a very significant er debate here today, there's been a lot of discussion on very important issues, erm I think throughout that we we've managed to get er a certain number of of issues really er in my view at least anyway sorted out. +Erm what I would ask the panel to to look at first of all is the fact that the erm the proposals for I five and I twelve appear to be largely acceptable over quite a large area of the the county. +We've heard erm quite a lot of support from most of the Districts er and there's been no er particular sort of opposition to to what we've been proposing er in those particular areas from any other source. +Now Greater York chairman, er we've had an interesting discussion this morning, the, what I would say there is the allocation of a hundred and forty five hectares to Greater York is in fact the product of several years of of quite detailed study by the Greater York authorities on on a joint basis. +Er a lot of effort's been put into it, er we believe that it is erm certainly feasible, it's consistent with the local strategy of restraint within this alteration is is placed and again the figure is is supported by all the the Greater York authorities. +Er I think it's also worth noting again chairman here that er in fact most of the hundred and forty five hectares that we've been talking about er is in fact already committed +Mm. +in in some way or other. +Perhaps I could just inject here the the one of the more recent elements of the discussion which was the er issue of er changing worker densities er to calculate land requirements. +Erm in in the context of Greater York, should you wish to to base your recommendations on er such a change, erm I don't believe that would cause the County Council any problems, and you heard from round the table that I think the the districts are quite happy on on that score as well. +On the issue of Selby which er took quite a lot of time er I think it was an important area er bearing in mind the different views that have been expressed. +I think really I can only repeat the County Council's position here chairman that we we do have sympathy with er the District Council's position and the particular problems that the District Council have to face. +Nevertheless having said that, er I would say that the County Council's moved as far as it believes it possibly can do to to meeting some of the requests of the the district in providing what we consider a generous, and what other people might consider a overly generous allocation of land. +We don't feel we could really realistically go any further within the context of the strategy again with the alterations it is placed within. +Chairman I think it is important in setting the level of provision, erm that there is in fact a need to balance the requirement for flexibility against the the risk of over-provision and the consequences of that. +Erm the County Council believes that its position is i is more or less correct in terms of the balances that +Mhm. +need to be achieved there. +I was pretty happy actually this morning to hear er Mr Cunnane almost agreeing with us on our figure. +Erm I I know it was in the context of a a question you posed to him that er if he had in fact er accepted the County Council's housing figures er that would have been an appropriate hundred and twenty two hectares would have been appropriate er on the employment side. +On Harrogate, erm I think the discussions have clarified a lot of the the sort of outstanding issues that that er were between perhaps the County Council and erm Professor Lock, er not so much between ourselves and Harrogate, although we have the the issue, and I think if I read it right, this could well be er the only issue that is between us in the Harrogate area, the issue of the strategic sites. +Er we appear sort of miraculously to have got round all the other ones, er to +fair bit of er Mr Potter's involvement on our part. +Richmondshire, chairman I I think we er dealt with that fairly fairly readily, erm I th , a change if you were to recommend that er to meet the district's case, erm I don't think that would be likely to cause any any harm to the County Council's strategy and er that's exactly what Mr Potter er did say not too long ago. +I don't really want to to comment on the last issue really, I think we've probably said enough on that, er the the issue of the effect on West Yorkshire. +We certainly don't believe that that will will be the case erm, I suspect personally that er their own policies and proposals probably have more harm in in the issue on the issues of urban regeneration of perhaps North Yorkshire as well. +Thank you chairman. +Thank you very much. +Er thank you very much for your contribution today I, we've found it extremely useful. +Erm for those who we shall not see tomorrow, may I thank you for your presence, your contributions, that's Mr Cunnane, Mr Laycock and Mr Girt. +Thank you very much. +The rest of you I'll see you in the morning at ten o'clock. + +Okay if I could say good evening and welcome to the theatre this evening the reason the meeting has been convened this evening quite clearly is part of the process and art structure for Harlow having undertaken by the Council, the Playhouse is keen as it says quite clearly on the leaflet is to to get the publics view on how best to plan this programme and it's, and facilities for the future. +It has been some debate er on the board and the management committee about the direction the theatre should be going into the nineteenth century twentieth century and I think and I and I think it's important that this meeting hopefully will be very constructive in the sense that is important that the theatre actually gets the views of people use the building, and people actually come along and support the of the theatre. +So I hope hopefully this evening will be a very constructive meeting and we'll certainly welcome your views about what you feel should be happening to the theatre or should be taken or should be taken place at the theatre, what should be on at the theatre, and er things that you feel that aren't happening at the moment. +We did if I can give some background we did actually target er twelve thousand, five hundred mailer shots for this meeting this evening I'm not sure what the people here are representing percentage for that and we also targeted over about a hundred organisations with mailing shots telling people the meetings on this evening. +In my concern as Chairman of the Board was that er if very few people turned up then perhaps people might say that we didn't go around go about advertising it in the correct way what I think we actually did I'm not sure how many people are here this evening, but I should think it's somewhere in the region of about hundred and, hundred and fifty, so I hope that the meeting this evening sort of cross representation people actually use facilities which the playhouse offers. +Can I just introduce people on the platform to you this evening. +My na mes Tom and I'm chairman of the trust, have Roy who is chairman of the management committee, Ron is vice who who who's vice chair of the board, Gordon I'm sure everyone knows is the general manager and John who is the company's secretary. +There have been some hand outs as you come in hopefully you've actually picked them up, on part of that hand out is a questionnaire towards the end which I hope everybody will find the time to fill in. +There's no need to put your name and address if you er choose not to do but I think we will actually value your your views on that questionnaire and certainly use those views in the coming months. +So if I can open the meeting by saying that we obviously welcome questions this evening and points of view and I would like to open the meeting by asking quite clearly about how you er see best plan for the theat theatre in future and how it's programme of facilities for the future should be programmed and planned. +Er Mr Chairman just a a point for clarification the about the . +When the previous meeting took place with the consultants. +Yes. +I rather got the impression that they would take him er, er, continue interest in what would happen, I've got the impression they have a representative here to give their view of how it was er +This, I think the Counc the Council commissioned the partnership report and I +right yes +think the Council had a time meeting to actually discuss that report with, with +yeah right yeah +the public. +I think from that report there was a there was a requirement or request that perhaps the theatre should actually have a public meeting to talk about which way the theatre was going what things were going on at the theatre and that's what the meeting is for this evening. +Yeah but I thought they. +The meeting sorry the meeting this evening is quite clearly is to talk about get your views on how best to plan the programmes for the facilities for the future. +Yes but if there is I thought if one of their representatives was gonna be here just to answer questions about their views +no no no +Don't you think that'd be useful +Sorry. +Don't you think that'd be useful +No I think this is board meeting and as a board I think were interested to get your points of view what isn't taken place that you'd liked to take place and what you'd like to see in the future well and that's why the meetings been convened. +Yes you do have four other colleagues on the side. +Because their also board members. +Oh I see Okay. +Okay. +Thank you. +. Can I just ask the other question perhaps which is relevant when people do make a contribution if they actually identify themselves so that may be useful if actually know who people are representing themselves or representing an organisation. +Chair my name's Pete from Partnership's I'm here as a member of the public I'm not here to speak on behalf of the theatre at all. +I might have something to say later on in the meeting but I thought that people should be aware that there is a continuing interest from Partnership's in the abundance of an art structure within Harlow and I I am here taking notes of people's comments thank you. +Thank you. +Okay. +Can we get into the meeting? +Sorry go on sorry go on. +I'd like to start off by saying I I . +Could I have your name please? +Sorry. +Yes Kenneth er er I've just finished managing Relate. +I think I I just represent myself. +I I've been coming here for forty years so far and and provocative statement I think in your programme this Autumn is the best that you've had for years it's a very good combination of classical and and modern plays and I really congratulate you on this programme and I would like to see that standard maintained. +Well thank you for that that's a very good start to the evening. +. Thank you. +Jan erm I've just recently started a job as a drama teacher and I must say there isn't actually anything in the programme that's actually on my A level syllabus for drama and I think it might be something er it a help to schools if maybe there was a play put on specifically schools to come and see I think to comment on.. +I just say that I'm sorry go on don't want to be dejective this evening but I mean minutes will be taken notes will be taken points have been raised I think that's a very valuable point that you've actually have raised. +Can we can we can we find out from the teacher whether in fact the school actually gets a a our information leaflet. +Ehm is a it isn't actually a a erm a new school it's Birchwood High School it used to be Margaret Dane which has been established a few years but Birchwood just been started for a year erm it has is some information but obviously there haven't been any feedback from the school so I starts there. +Chair can you ask people to speak up. +A lot of people have very soft voices. +You haven't Bill +John . +I wanna put this er question of what this playhouse is about a back to to to a stage to to the platform because I think that's where it belongs er were here to criticize but not to initiate. +Er many of us remember Gordon in the sixties working with a small group to get this place built thirty years on does he feel the playhouse is doing what he then hoped for and if not what are the things that have changed it? +None but it's thirty years on. +. +I'm one of the original directors of the theatre and er Mr Chairman what worries me is this. +I think we have to face facts, first fact is the the priority of the board must at this time be survival. +Financial survival. +Er if you couple that with the action of Eastern Arts who I understand have cut the subsidy er for this er theatre I think that's correct, erm, as I understand on the grounds that a not enough they mean imaginative or progressive which to me means weird play to put on . +Er couple the two together they don't really make sense because this type of experimental theatre never pays, can't pay. +Er in my opinion at this particular time we must bear in mind the financial constraints that we work under and er would the board agree with me that erm survival comes first yes but it's obvious that the programme that we've er had put forward is a good compromise between preferred in the arts, maintaining the theatre as a viable proposition and er entertaining the people of this particular part of the world because as I understand it this theatre was not just the artist also an entertainment centre and it's in this area that er it's quite obvious when you look into the figures on this area the popular area that the majority income comes so you'll have to make a compromise and I will congratulate the board on what I think is pretty reasonable compromise so it's quite obvious in the programme. +at the back I can't. +Tom I'm just a punter represent nobody. +I come to theatre regularly I agree with my friend over there I think you have a very good programme quite mixed not all my taste but it's it's representative of the tastes of the people who want to come. +Unfortunately with got to get some of those people who don't want to come and it's all about bums on seats it's the old old saying bums on seats we've got to get an answer how we don't get to these here at the moment in the audience whether they are people who want to get bums on seats or how they know how to do it perhaps they should have a meeting like this every month I've never seen so many of . +.. I'll give you my fee later. +Seriously though we've got to get people into this theatre on a more regular basis. +A few years ago I saw a couple of Eastenders stars come in erm and Ross whatever his name forget his name there were two young girls standing in front of me scraping pennies out of their purse to get in though we loved that character they wanted to come that night we've got to get girls like that youngsters like that interested to come on other nights and then come again that's what needs doing.. +Keith . +Erm representing myself. +I think I agree with the gentleman over there I think the youth of this particular town who on average spends somewhere in the region of fifteen and twenty pounds a week going to Highwire and going to pubs erm you need the attraction to the theatre. +How that's done I don't know how do we reach these people there's a broad sheet that goes to the school's am I right Jan? +I wouldn't know actually Keith at the moment. +I'm sure there is though. +Yes there is to all of them. +Erm can I ask how that's funded first of all is that funded through is that funded through the council. +It's currently funded chair by er B P and we're very grateful for them. +Okay is that do we know if that funding is going to continue?. +Perhaps we sort through this original question we can pick up on that. +Okay. +about how many copies where they've actually gone that that is some that is sent out to all school's and quite considerable numbers are sent out. +What's the actual figures on that Gordon +Published three times a year and a thousand copies and distributed to all school's within a very wide area through the Education Authority. +Do we get a feedback from school's at all? +Yes, We do quite considerably through the . +And and that I presume that the feedback is analyzed and decided from maybe as to the content of what goes on in studio and also on the main stage. +sort of a sort of er points Jan made. +Really it would be nice of we to have A level plays so A level student could come and see. +But that has been in the past and that was a thing that we had for several years had A level plays actually on the stage am I correct? +I think I am. +I'm sorry I can't erm. +As far as the as far as A level as far as A level plays are concerned I think with had them on the stage before now over the last five ten years as far as I'm concerned. +One of the problems is of course is finding the product available. +Do you not got to the school's for suggestions? +Well yes of course. +You do? +We know what we know what plays . +Mike just a point of information I have been teaching in Harlow for twenty years and I've never been asked by anybody at the playhouse what play's who's like to see in my school. +My name is Pamela . +We used to come to the theatre once a week but since the demise of the money saver two for the price of one scheme with only come really twice a season. +I think it's great shame that were not able to come more often now but I don't think that the replacement scheme is really a replacement cos it relies on you getting the most expensive seats I would rather see lots of things cheaply rather than just one or two things more expensively it also doesn't include studio theatre many of the productions I think are excellent and there's no advantage there. +Here here .. +Paul erm involved in a number of erm in a number of amateur companies apparently working as a casual member of staff. +I have one question which relates to the article double page article in this weeks Harlow Star. +Er that is that at least three of the articles are talking to quoting different organisations er suggested that the playhouse theatre trust had been recommended to do something about their marketing er a at least two years ago if not longer ago erm certainly it's my knowledge er they have not employed specialists to that they have not employed a specialist to that indeed since the last er appointed publicity officer left, that person that post has not been er refilled er could I ask the theatre trust why they have chosen not taken that recommendation seriously? +I think as far as market is concerned we have sort of taken certain steps as far as the marketing is I mean the computerisation of ticket system gives us a much greater insight on marketing now cos you can actually see what people come to see and we can by the ticket that's actually sold and we can actually target people direct. +And I think that the last year has actually improved the attendance at the theatre because do that. +As far as employment of the ma marketing consultant or marketing persons concerned the actual costing of that has worked out something like between six sixteen and twenty thousand pounds now we've gone through a very difficult financial stage like many other organisations and many other theatres. +At particular market in time whilst we agree as the board that we should employ someone and we intend to employ someone we just think at this particular moment in time it is very difficult for us to actually raise that sort of money on a regular basis. +As soon as our financial situation has eased we'll certainly employ someone. +But it isn't true to say I'd certainly say it isn't true to say that making the recommendations of our market have been slightly up recommendation in takings. +The one that hasn't been in fact to employ somebody particularly perhaps to go out the market theatre but this particular mark in time it's been very difficult for a theatre to actually find twenty thousand this financial year in fact we had to find seventy thousand pound cuts, that was a very difficult exercise so the answer to your question is we accept that recommendation and as soon as the finance is available we intend to employ somebody to take on that task. +Is now . +Well if it's a question yeah yeah. +Yeah erm, the reason I want to follow it up is because would you not agree er with a number of major companies in this country and in a time of recession rather than cutting back on your marketing and advertising you should in fact be increasing it in fact when the marketing +But when +manager should be be a major priority. +Well that's what Breeze am keep telling me when I got to work in the morning it's about the time of recession people should advertise more not less that maybe but the hard financial situation of the theatre finds itself in is to find that sort of money is very difficult at the moment. +We're not saying we can't we we we're against proposal we've had to take on the market person but until that finance situation is eased it's extremely difficult. +Surely the point when you have no money to employ a marketing manager you won't need to employ one. +I think there is a need for a marketing person.. +Question directly relating to that point though is it not true that the Eastern Arts withdrawal of the ten thousand pound grant last year was directly related to criticisms made in both in the nineteen eighty six appraisal and subsequently and repeated both to The Star recently what with was that the marketing of the playhouse was drastically inadequate. +No. +Had you not improved your marketing is another sporting chance you've got your ten thousand pounds grant. +No. +Do you know why you lost the Eastern Arts drama? +No. +How is it then I put it this way . +I'm sorry look I. +How is it that you don't know and in your letter to me you said this trust did not know where that money had been withdrawn at the same time Andrew director of Eastern Arts was quite happy to write to me to tell me why he was quite happy to tell the press over the phone why how is it the trust didn't know? +Well it would be very nice if Andrew actually wrote to the trust to tell them why in same details as he apparently told the press. +Can I ask therefore why the Eastern Arts of appraisal report of nineteen eighty-six a major appraisal costing a huge amount of Eastern Arts money was not considered and and presented across. +The Eastern Arts report of nineteen eighty six was never completed what the Eastern Arts did in actual fact was to produce a draft report and promised that the final report would be complete and circulate it as to date which is nineteen ninety-one we have not received the final report of the Eastern Arts appraisal. +That isn't their story. +Question question. +Well it may not be their story but that's the fact. +can I can I ask the funding of the playhouse. +Certainly. +Can I ask over the last six seven years what local companies have funded the playhouse and to what level? and how many of actually withdrawn and the reasons why they actually withdrawn? +I don't think the theatre's ever been endowed with a great deal of fundings but one or two companies in the town that have been prepared to fund obviously the one that strikes me is Gilbey's cos the Gilbey bar I mean that was funded and like they've been over the years they have given money even fact as a sad note cos Gilbey's have actually demised now erm General Portfolio have actually taken on the role in Harlow of funding many things if you actually look all most things that have sponsored until recently have been sponsored by General Portfolio so they've been to the fore in er fundering funding. +The the trust has actually approached several Council's in the area not just Harlow Council obviously but many many other Councils and I think there was only one other Council that provided some funding and that was something like two hundred and fifty pounds was offered at one time I think that's ceased now so there is no other Council although although it'd be interesting tonight although fifty per cent of the people who actually use this facility actually come from outside the town but there's no funding directly or indirectly from any other Council so my knowledge would be if you exclude B P exclude General Portfolio perhaps I'm doing other companies a disservice I can't think of any other major company in town that's actually provided but Gordon can you think of. +Lloyds Bank. +Lloyds. +General Portfolio B P Pitney Bowes over the years have from time to time provided us with funding +Is it simply been financial restraint by all those companies that that there isn't . +Yeah their their funding tends to be they'll they'll fund something like a production or they'll say at you know if you put our name up were give you so much or General Portfolio perhaps will will fund a particular show or a series of show's or say were prepared to put a thousand pounds could you name six shows and we'll put our name on those show's when they're advertised but no company or other Council's actually prepared to come along and say were prepared to put money on a regular basis. +Have you approached these companies? +Yes we've approached on a regular basis we've we approach +Yeah I mean me I it may be inappropriate at this moment in time to say we will do it now because of obvious reasons but prior to the recession it was an ongoing thing that the the board were in through the general manager were actually writing to many companies. +I mean Cossor's er actually have provided funding in the past. +Hm hm. +Eh and perhaps were one of the major funders in the past I say General Portfolio until recently were the major funders er in the in the ninety ninety one but there's been no company that's been funding the theatre on a regular basis. +Ehm what facilities would you actually give er on a broad spectrum so these companies that might want to fund the playhouse apart from the normal free tickets? +Could you could you could you foresee the General Portfolio Portfolio bar? +I not the Gilbey bar? +We got the Gilbey bar but I no the answer to that question would be if any company or org organisation was prepared or wished to talk about funding the theatre in any way and I think were'd be more than welcome to sit down with and talk them and say well how would you perceive that which way would you like to go about it how can we assist that and I think we're be open to suggestions from them how they see it I mean you know it could be seats it could be programmes it could be any any arrange of things that we'd certainly welcome who approach us from companies but we I think we are pro-active in sense that we don't wait for that to happen we actually go out but was said early I think given the recession it has been difficult lately to actually go out to companies and say I mean sure companies like the Harlow Council find it extremely finance the finances extremely difficult on them and with the recession it's really difficult for them to actually find funding and I know lot's of companies who actually cutting back on it certain areas I think funding of oth outside organisations will be one of the areas they'll be cutting back on. +So Mr Chairman sorry to bring it up again but er I think it's in line what this gentleman said er bearing in mind I think it is a fact that this is a reasonable theatre enjoyed by people from a very large catchment area could you please tell us what support the the er playhouse has had from the local authorities adjacent to Harlow. +In my opinion they're they're pitiful. +Nothing well we've no . +Twenty five pounds from Braughing District council in nineteen seventy two.. +I'm sorry I put a nought I thought it was two hundred and fifty but I'm advised it was twenty five . +I I I hope I hope er Mr Chairman these facts are brought to the attention of the general public bearing in mind the general public over a large catchment area enjoy the facilities here. +I principally in Harlow who the generous generosity of forsightness of the Council etc I hope these facts are publicised and perhaps shame these people supporting er you know this theatre . +I think it's also entertainment the excellent wage of services placed on by Harlow Council. +Yeah. +And one of one of the things that I've got on a regular basis is the many of the things Harlow Council put on like pop concerts country and western have actually been used by people who who perhaps live outside of Harlow so the Council are now looking at a charging policy but also we should also gonna introduce into the theatre is the leisure card which actually includes that the people actually live in the town local and the reproductional sort of show if they can do so they should buy. +And I think what the Council's got to do and I think what the what the what the theatre perhaps has to do is only make that leisure card more easily acceptable and available and also look upon the reductions that we give but that perhaps is a way of actually rewarding the people in Harlow to use the theatre and the contribution in actually paying for it at the expense of the people coming in from outside who perhaps don't pay anything towards the expense of the theatre. +So a leisure card's been introduced now and will be I hopefully will be expand and give that sort of financial reward to people who live in the town. +Thank you. +I I think there's another way of looking at that. +Yeah. +I actually live in Sawbridgeworth. +Yeah. +And I come down here very regularly but my view is we don't get any discount if you like we don't get a leisure card. +Right. +And yet it's the people around Harlow were not supporting it what the hell are you going to do then ? +Fifty per cent of them . +I mean I know an awful lot of people outside Harlow who who come here but Harlow people could be said to be apathetic or not being marketed rightly. +. +I think I mean it was interesting cos someone said earlier about people coming in I mean once you get them in I mean I always feel it's like the pantomime each year which is an amateur pantomime yet the actual people coming in to see that I mean it's well in the ninety per cent 's and you talk to people when they come to see the pantomime and ver invariably the the mum's or dad's say no I don't normally come to theatre but I come to the pantomime and they enjoy it very much and when you talk to them they can say well what you think of it? +Oh it's terrific you know it's a great building I like it I like what's going on and you say will you come back again? +And they say yeah I will but but presumably that tapers off and they don't but it's an interesting thing that on particular when you're targeting certain things like pantomime do get people in I think there's lot's of people said this evening say actually build on that perhaps get those people to come back again so yes I did like it I I did like what I saw there I did like the way that I was treated I did like the whole ambience of the place like I'll definitely come back again will they be viable to do that? +I would hope . +There's a there's a perfectly example of marketing . +Marketing . +You've got a captive audience there why the hell don't you do it a sheet why don't you give them a programme for the next three months exactly what is happening. +That way they won't drift off they will come back. +We had erm no we we actually had done that we have given questionnaires out as programmes we actually asked people to I mean it'll be interest to see how many people fill it in this evening but there is a built in resistance by some people to actually fill in any sort of questionnaire er and in the past when we've actually done that I think the response's hasn't been that that brilliant. +I'm I'm not not saying it's reasonable . +So were talking about Harlow people just being apathetic. +Well I'm not sure I mean it's interest I mean the the Council erm with another the Council looked upon attendances of the things Council do and many people who use the facilities in Harlow will argue we don't get anything like this where we live and we always find it like that you know it's that sort of mentality where people in Harlow may or may not say well course you get it in Harlow we expect it it's just there it just saves we know it's getting them people to use it but I talk to people I'm sure people who live in Harlow or the Council to people and Harlow people tend to think well yes yes it's all with always it's always there. +So I mean it's winning people over because . +There . +I think it's fair to say that with this new computer erm the box office that we've got a lot of information can be stored on that and in future we'll be using a much more erm sophisticated in a scientific way for instance if you came here and book that seat that your sitting in tonight we would know on that computer what type of show that your discouraging coming to erm we can say to you we can send you out a leaflet saying the kind of er things that you'd like to see are on at the playhouse on such and such a date and we could even say to you would you like the seat that you normally sit in. +And I think that that is is is. +Well that's through marketing . +And were doing it? +Were doing it were doing it. +Were doing it when? +Now doing it now. +Yes. +Can I just say something else as well? +I'm sorry erm as far as the schools are concerned you had presumably a lot of contact I mean as part of the national curriculum is if if you like is to build contact with the community and the schools. +Could you not use the drama teachers in those schools to carry out the kind some of this kind of marketing as well. +There's projects with the kids you know get the kids to to work on what they want what they want to see get them to work on their parents and find out you could find out then whether there is or not in Harlow. +Certainly we er have extensive contacts with almost all the drama teachers in schools in the surrounding area through the amateurs in contact with them all the time. +And that that shows that it that is true of working . +And we're getting through that through the through the schools newsletter. +But it I mean is it is it. +One of the one of the difficulties is that that that theatres up and down the country have faced over the last two years of the new target that were brought in with the eighty eight education act where schools were not allowed to make a charge it could only be a voluntary contribution now the council of Great Britain have looked at this it's a problem cos of this decimated schools audiences. +For many years we had a well known er. +School . +T R E company Molecule theatre which came originally from the Mermaid in They came here two or three times a year for seven or eight years and we use to pack 'em out. +At the moment there isn't even a charging regulations came in the schools immediately cut back because it was a very definite barrier that was put up to prevent schools that prevented schools from from taking up that sort of er offer that they had done in the past and it's a major problem. +Why therefore have you virtually abandon your students standby scheme. +Sorry sorry if you sorry if you wish to speak. +Sorry why therefore have you virtually abandon your students standby scheme? +It's now available for only seven shows out of twenty seven in the next programme and only on the first night of each show and only at a cost of two pounds and these are the audience of tomorrow as I wrote to you Mr you neglect these people at your peril why've you changed the scheme? +Are you saying you'd like to see that re-introduced? +What's it why've you change it? +No is that a question are you saying you'd like to see introduced ? +Well yes please why'd you change it? +Right right right well we we'll we'll look at that quite clearly. +One I mean one of the reason's that we've actually changed these round and and don't think it's right is because the has a there's been a cut cut cost cutting exercise within the building. +The theatre like most other organisations have actually looked for savings and this this trust has had to look for seventy thousand pounds savings. +I mean when you're looking for seventy thousand pounds savings you can only do two things. +You can either look at people's jobs because that's the bulk of the money goes or you look at the charging policy or you look how the building's run. +Now we've actually found seventy thousand pounds worth of savings we haven't made anybody redundant and we've actually quite clearly taken in that seventy thousand pounds within our overall budget past decisions has had to be taken and they've been taken as I said earlier hopefully when the financial climate gets better we perhaps we'll be able to other things all or were revert back to things that we we do wish to do because the the financial restraints on us. +If you're raising a particular point and the reason that we're here this evening is to look at things that people are raising we'll look at that report we'll look at the point your raising and er we'll we'll see if it validity to it. +Sorry. +My name's Derek in any profit-making org organisation the results shown by the playhouse would have automatically brought about a change of management or does the Chairman of the Harlow theatre trust still consider that it is running the business very smoothly? +Your asking me as chairman of the board and I think I can speak to the board I think that the theatre has actually managed very well. +Why the meeting then? +Sorry. +Why why is the meeting then? +Why what? +Running well? +Cos I think it's important that er the the the theatre actually talks to the people who actually use the why are you saying we shouldn't be talking to people then? +No I think I think it's it's it's a valid point to say that the trust should be talking to the people that actually use the building. +Hm hm. +Who've actually come in to see the shows to get there point of view to say what they like and what they dislike. +To say whether they feel the things that that they like to see and that we're not doing. +And has been said by several people who are here. +There's things that we are doing like I've been told by a couple of people this evening the autumn programme they think it's very good very progressive very enjoyable I thi that that to me that reinforces the autumn programme by several people so people who here are people here this evening feel they we say something about what isn't on the agenda or what is on the agenda but I think that's what the meetings for but I don't think it's a bad exercise to talk to the people who actually pay come in the building I mean I think that's a valid exercise. +I think it's a wonderful exercise why doesn't it happen more often? +Well. +It 's happen this evening. +Cos of the marketing policy. +Perhaps if it's so successful if it can successfully this evening perhaps we will do it more often. +You will? +. +Sorry yes. +I'm I'm really going to erm I afraid I have experience of +Who are you sorry? +Brenda +Oh right. +And you know me very well Tom. +Yes... +No . +You don't look the same from this side of the light Brenda. +That's right that's right. +Is it a question for us ? +The thing is I I me I've taken all my up here today. +Yes. +I have used this building from the very beginning. +I have always turned up when people have asked me to put children in their shows. +I came in to this building last year I've got people sitting here who've realised it wasn't a happy place to be I found it quite difficult. +I have staff who's morale was very under. +Sorry Brenda I don't I don't wanna cut in could you ask the question please? +Well I'm asking. +Sorry I'd like the +the thing is +question. +There is not well alright then my question is . +Say what you want. +I I I. +Why don't you shut up. +You know the thing is I feel that when I was tried to get the theatre board and I have contacted various people on the board I have never been listened to. +I feel I'm just regarded as a neurotic woman I've been told that by Mr I've found that is was very yes I have don't deny it. +No you've not. +I have tried every way I wrote let a letter hoping somebody would actually come and ask me what was wrong. +I wanted to put a a morning on when I realised there was problems here just a morning an open morning which would of brought probably nine hundred thousand pounds into this building, in July I came in to try to see the Director of the playhouse I couldn't go through the written way because I was waiting for exam date to come through. +I've tried three times to see Mr he wasn't available. +I then gave a message to his secretary personal assistant and was told no the letter I receive was that I shouldn't go through something third hand you don't see what the other side is. +I've got a big school we fill this place in when I come in here. +I'm asking is there a way that the board would actually listen. +You know if I if I don't if I've offended Mr in any way then that is one thing but I do put on bottoms on seats and I bring money into this building. +I'm one of the people who've actually got the guts now to stand up and say that I .. +Sorry I'm not sure yeah I'm not sure what decide but I'll be very clear what they would do. +I think thing is. +in there mind. +People are frightened Ron there is a fear thing going on in this place. +Yes. +Which might sound terribly dramatic people are frightened that if you offend you will not use this building again. +Here here. +Here here. +Here here. +The staff here maybe I should be I shouldn't be saying this the staff are finding it very difficult I mean what I'm trying to say is for goodness sake eyes should be opened. +We applauded because of the your new brochure +And you are sorry. +I'm Jean from the Harlow Symphony Orchestra. +In your new brochure here that you've put on the table erm it says a meeting it doesn't actually say a meeting actually it says we need your ideas come along and tell us that's why we applauded.. +Keith once again. +I'm sorry not Keith once again we've got other speakers that haven't spoke once sorry.. +Jim er as a private individual. +er Mr Chairman your care to require question so here's a question. +Is this a public consultation meeting? +The meeting this evening is to get the public's views and how best to plan it's progress +Why does a view have to be expressed as a question? +Sorry? +Why does a view have to be expressed as a question? +Hm hm.. +Chair Ian . +following on from that er that the point that I think is being made is that a contribution does not have to be put forward in a shape of a question to be er a useful contribution to the debate and and your erm pressure upon er the lady who spoke er a while ago was er insisting that she she +that's right +addressed you in the in the form of a question that is not necessarily the the only way to conduct a debate and I think that's the point that's being made . +Well I think it's sorry I don't think it will serve any purpose people actually get up and make character assassinations of other people and when were talk in terms of I said You said and He said I don't think that's a productive way to conduct the evening's business.. +Quite clearly the reason that people have been asked to come along this evening and have come along this evening is to put there points of view about how the see the theatre in the future what is programme facilities are the things that aren't happening here they feel should be happening here that's what it's for not here to serve any purpose for individuals to get up and make personal cuts on people or say what happen on a Saturday morning or a Thursday afternoon cos I +Anybody wishing if anybody wishes to ring me anyone I'm not I'm not you see I don't see that serves any purpose I'm sorry I do not think that serves any purpose if you wish to ring me outside this meeting +I have rung you I have rung you. +The reason I'm standing up here cos your not get things done in this town I'm sorry it is the only way of saying something . +I'm available to listen and hear what they've got to say. +They are not. +And discuss it with them. +They are not . +That's quite clear I'm prepared to do that . +I don't think people interrupting and shouting this evening will solve anything quite clearly . +It is the only opportunity . +Chair. +Can I just say just say one thing Paul and for myself erm I don't think that Brenda just two things I'm a very against character assassination erm I don't think that Brenda was character assassinizing +No +no +What she was doing is she was talking as a person who's got a genuine love of the theatre as we all have that's what were doing here looking for solutions now can I'm I'm as I said I'm not assassinating your character now but you're being very intimidating in the way that your talking to people.. +Why is that? +Because I don't. +Sorry that's a question +. +What I'm trying to do is chair a meeting and to prevent what happening what's just happened when people start jumping up and shouting I don't think that's productive ways to chair any meeting or allow that to happen. +No your not. +The second thing productive I don't think it's productive for people to interrupt start shouting at me and chairing at me or shout shout at the platform cos I think all that's gonna happen there is the meetings gonna disintegrate and nothing will be as right. +I've. +The reason this playhouse the reason. +I mean that sort of thing doesn't help it right. +I agree with that I agree with him. +The same person the same person all I'm saying the reason that the meeting was convened this evening and the reason that Paul wants the meeting this evening was to get the views from the public about what they felt was going on at the playhouse and what they would like to see that isn't taken place I think that was the thing behind the meeting and that's what we'd like to see right okay... +If you generally want the views of the public it is no good trying to false those views through a straight jacket of your own to make it what you think there views should be unless of course they go right over the top in which they I don't think that's happened so far.. +Chair can I try er to to wrap this up so that we can get back onto debate by delivering a question to you as chair? +Yes. +The point's that I think is trying to be made is that there are a lot of people here tonight who do wish to express an opinion and that opinion is not necessarily formulated in question form. +Will you allow people to address the panel as a a comment and not just a question yes or no if you say no fine we all understand and we have to er formulate our our ideas as a question and we'll carry on that case is quite simple and straight forward like that. +You are an experienced chair you're good at your job and if people get out of hand you know how to shut them up. +I'm prepared for people who actually prepare to make comments yes I think you've got to limit the time and make comments not particularly what people get up and speak for ten minutes I don't think it's fair on the people this evening who've come along and put a question about why aren't you doing certain things I think that's and I don't want those people to actually come to a solution. +I'm not prepared I'm not prepared for individuals to get up but if your not if you don't want to listen to what I've got to say that's okay but I don't I'm not prepared for people to perhaps to start making personal points about people actual work within the I certainly wouldn't do it I don't think it's it's a question of . +Right you've made a point now . +I think it's . +I think you've spoken more than a few minutes. +I'll continue to speak if you keep interrupting. +I quite clear to do that okay thank you. +Yes. +. +Where? +I think there's a lady over there with her hand up +When I say I can't see people I think it's the lighting but there is a sort of a I can't recognise people by face. +Someone at the back yes . +Mr chairman Derek I've lived in the town for something like thirty five years and seems to me that the problem here is a lot of mistrust between people who use the theatre and the board somewhere people are not getting answers. +Would it not help if the board gave a written assurance to the people who've been complaining here that they will meet them on any occasion to discuss the problem in writing please because from Brenda it appears that it just does not happen. +That's right. +If we could have it in writing and we could publicise it I'm sure they would where to go and how to do it. +If anybody has any absolutely yes I'll be quite happy I mean to me chairman of the trust or with management committee to meet anybody if they feel that they've got some concern they wish to discuss I'm quite happy to do that all I can say is that nobody has actually wro wro wrote to me or rang me to say they'd like to meet to discuss that and I'm quite happy to do that. +You've had letters +But I think it may be more appropriate if I actually met with say the management committee as opposed to myself yes I'm quite happy to do that to meet any individual or group who feel they have some concerns they wish to discuss and I give that I give that assurance this evening. +Seems to be somewhere along the road or otherwise your gonna get nowhere nobody. +Yeah I'm quite happy to do that. +Sorry someone here yes. +I'm Mrs and er the point I wanna make is that I understood when Jimmy Jones came here had two lovely full houses but I heard through the building through the grapevine that the members of the trust or council objected to him because he was racist his jokes and sexist. +Now if you're talking about filling the seats it's obvious that the people in Harlow like that type of thing so why don't we have more of it.. +The answer to that question would be that the Council's actually the Councillors adopt an equal opportunity policy and that policy now has been adopted by the theatre trust and the theatre trust wouldn't put anything on if they feel sexist or racist or ageist. +That makes you like censors then +No well that's that's a debateable that's a debateable point but I think that would that is the policy of the board . +Talking about bums on seats here. +Well we could I mean there are many ways there are many ways that we could actually fill this building apart from putting Jimmy Jones on there's lot's of things perhaps we could really put on which we would . +. +And then if we would find totally unacceptable we certainly wouldn't be prepared to do that +. +I didn't I didn't see him myself personally I don't like him but it's a matter of choice. +Does anybody who hasn't asked a question or wishes to make a comment who who would like to? +Yes I in relation to the above +sorry +Aha for the studio theatre to be dark t during the autumn and I I do regard the studio theatre as the frenzied heart of a theatre and I have enjoyed many of the performances very much and I just hope very much we can just get some more money from somewhere carry on I +In the studio. +One of the reasons why to save money is because the studio theatre has a limited capacity. +And the sort of er money that won't have to pay a reputable alternative theatre it was such that one couldn't hope to break even on that capacity with the sort of seat prices that were that we're charging. +So sadly that was one of those things that we had to cut. +I know there are people here +I know there are people here in the audience that use used to come to classical music concerts, horrendously expensive even with the Eastern orchestral board's subsidy. +For example if you had the London Mozart players here as we frequently did and frequently played to full houses, then even with a hundred percent house there was a subsidy required of something like seven or eight pounds per seat, in order to meet the cost of presenting that particular concert and we've done it for years but sadly when we had to make cuts that was one of things the board decided they had to cut up they had to save money somehow. +May I make a relevant point please? +You'll ask a question. +Yeah surely.. +In the current programme the studio is in use for seventeen days out of a possible a hundred and forty seven. +In the next ten months starting in September ninety one it's in use for sixty four days out of a possible three hundred. +That is economic lunacy, not saving money it's lunacy it should be in operation making money bringing people in. +Question Mr Chair. +Yeah. +My names Christopher with reference to that representing myself. +Reference to that point is that management or mismanagement.. +could you answer the question please +Yeah the board in it's wisdom looking at the financial situation decided to take on a policy which actually prohibited the use of the studio theatre by professional companies and I think that's reduced the actual use of that facility. +Can I ask erm what's happening to the Harlow Playhouse based Youth theatre cos obviously that has left a big gap in performances cos there's nothing in this programme. +Yes one of the er sad things about Harlow youth theatre which many of you will remember er was sole run so successfully by Roger over a number of years. +Sadly when Roger left in nineteen eighty-six it took the education of who provided Roger's er salary until point successor. +During that time of course nobody there to run it the youth theatre sadly er ran down. +Subsequent of that of course to meet the need we had Stage Directions come into being very vibrant thrusting young people theatre's company and really what's happen is that Stage Directions in part anyway has taken over the mantle of the old Harlow youth theatre. +Harlow youth theatre now with our developing links with Harlow College and it's performing arts division er is now based in the College with tutor's from staff of the college who's job is one way er that that we could we could push it forward. +I'd just like. +Yes. +Like to ask in relation to er previous comments made before . +Why then are there not more amateur productions in the new season erm in in the studio erm not just from the companies that actually use the studio at the moment. +Because I'm sure they don't cost as much to put on up there as do professional productions? +Well certainly there there are in the coming season there's a many people sitting here tonight will know. +Large number of er amateur production in fact there's an amateur show in the studio theatre one er once every three weeks. +Yeah but what about . +And cos the the studio is also used regularly for rehearsals for example or as you know if er local amateur company is putting on a show in the studio they're given the use of the studio a week before the week of the show. +Yeah but . +Cos that is an advantage of it. +Okay but you've +Your point sorry yes . +Got local advantage to them but that never used to happen okay so why is it happening now? +They I mean in a time when it's sort of been difficult to make money erm why is that one got not gone by the board and more amateur production put in there? +I'm sure the people who's actually used the studio theatre would willingly give up that week before it never used to happen. +What you're saying is you'd like to see more amateur productions? +Yeah. +Fine. +erm. +Sorry the lady . +Yes . +Mr Chairman erm I would like personally take up a suggestion that was in The Star about the possibility of a regional company being based at the playhouse in other words for a few months I would see it as people getting to know this company and rather like a repertory theatre of old then people would want to come and see these people in different roles and I think that would add to the you know repetitive. +Right. +Coming to see these shows. +Right. +I'd like the board to consider that. +Okay that sounds +erm talking about the sorry David the Playhouse being an entertainment centre, perhaps you should utilise the space a little bit more I'm sure if we go down stairs now into the foyer bar it's probably empty as it is erm many nights of the week. +I'm sure if you go to the stage door club tonight erm. +it's closed +Right I mean these are area's in in this entertainments centre as it was called earlier on the entertainment being theatre and the gallery erm that may be utilised more i.e. jazz bands in the downstairs bar erm any other ideas I mean get people into the building then you'll sell tickets to keep the place running. +I mean I I certainly accept that I mean I think there a lot of problems on the in the stage door club several nights of the years. +And why the problems there is that any sort of loud music was actually buried under the auditorial I mean that was the problem that occurred and we had to sort of tone it down a bit. +And I think in the past there there actually been music in in foyer bar erm yeah I mean I'd certainly look at that I mean . +. +Were open I mean there's been lots of things done like that I mean you maybe aware of this sort of jazz in the Gilbey bar on Saturday lunch time and that's been running some time then it'll cease to come back again you know if you'll actually counting on the people actually coming cos of the jazz there I think as your looking at it it was slightly up it wasn't a wasn't great influx because there was jazz available so yeah we'll certainly look introducing things into different areas of the theatre but from past experience it doesn't automatically follow that if you can do that then you know it's gonna happen. +Just a reply to that though if for instance the foyer bar became a jazz club and it was it was a the jazz club all the time then it would get a name of it's own and it would get a reasonable quality. +I was in Bristol recently and I went to a bar there which is packed every night people pay to go into a club to go in there . +Sorry. +Mr Chairman what's the erm chance of the Petticoat restaurant coming back under the playhouse umbrella. +No. +That I believe now it's run by the ladies that took over some while ago. +Sure. +The chances that I think are nil. +In fact the pet petticoat restaurant is is run as a and because the theatre trust for whatever reason could make profit out of the petticoat restaurant and people that actually work there for the trust that actually took it over and the trust actually get's a percent of the takings percent of profit and er. +So really it's. +And er as and as and as that . +Making . +Were actually are making a profit we said at the beginning we do get a payment from petticoats so I don't see that arrangement actually changing but it suits the trust were not very good at running restaurant's.. +As much as the Council are it's very difficult.. +. +Your be leaving yourself open . +It's a special it's a special licence actually running restaurants. +Yeah but it's. +Ehm. +It's sad not to have a restaurant that size in the playhouse so that people come to the theatre. +Well. +I think the stage door club is fine but it's so tiny and rather you know . +That that was so was originally was available for the ticket you could actually have some supper before you went in or perhaps supper when you came out and that was the sort of thing that was available. +Unfortunately over the years there was such a deficit for whatever reason lot's of things were tried it was then decided that it was two options one was closing lose so much money or actually put it out to franchise fortunately enough that people were at all the money and we didn't get an income from it. +I accept the point your raising on this if it was open in the evenings that would be an added hance to the building unfortunately it isn't yes I think your absolutely right. +But can't couldn't you perhaps develop then the the er stage door club could do more perhaps more meals and maybe erm have tickets that take in the cost of a meal so you actually. +Sorry. +I've done that I mean one of the sad things about the stage door club is due to the design of the building you've really got to be looking to go there. +Yeah. +It's not sort of passing trade. +Oh. +I mean it's got if you've got a disability for instance you wouldn't be able to get in there. +So that's that's a problem. +Oh. +So if your if you're an elder it'll be very difficult to get up those very steep steps etcetera so it's got disadvantages now it's been run all sorts of ways it's was run you know it was run as a as a wine wine bar it was run as a restaurant it's been run as a bar it's been run as a stage door club but all this all these ways have been run by private individuals it's not always been the trust that's run it it's been run as franchise all these people have great problems actually making profit out of it and making it suitable. +And it's also got limited facilities about what you can and what you can't do there so there are problems there. +I mean it's empty at the moment if anybody's got any suggestions or thoughts about what we can do with it it's certainly er we I I would like to hear those. +If perhaps not this evening then if ring me or contact me. +. +I'd certainly raise that at any any thoughts about how it could be used it is facility at the moment isn't used should be used. +Here's a simply suggestion why don't you move the facilities from the stage door club down to the foyer bar so that a load of people can go in there you'd change the general denouement of the foyer bar. +Yeah. +Simple. +Yeah. +ambience +I think there's nothing Chairman that a hundred and fifty thousand pounds wouldn't do. +Well why not why not go outside for funding? +So marketing exercise once again. +Ehm just to get back about the point the studio being dark erm it's just as a suggestion has anybody thought of actually running say a week's worth of drama courses with er an artist in residence or something like that coming in to do work shops. +I know that stage directions will come along and youth theatre'd come down I'm sure a lot of people with theatre company come and do them. +Surely that'll bring people back into the theatre it would obviously pay the artist it would also bring money into the theatre if the theatre could actually charged for them to do them . +Well going back to the boards point about take over theatre as we did on making a loss. +Sorry the restaurant you mean. +The restaurant yes petticoat restaurant. +erm one did take up on public individuals if they made a profit have the board not considered perhaps teaming public individuals to run the theatre?. +Sorry.. +We are yes.. +Yeah we are has that does that answer the question we actually are considering it +You are . +We are that. +Going back again to Dave 's point about the foyer bar. +Yes. +I think I probably speak for er quite a few people in the audience at the moment but I myself who intimidated going in there cos of the clientele that seems to be attracted to it. +I don't know if I know I understand obviously monies not around at the moment but if they made some way of creating some kind of jazz pub closing it down making it part of the theatre again it's it's just a like a pub and I I don't ever feel comfortable going in there and buying drinks on rehearse .. +Mr Chairman too. +Hang on hang on. +. +Hang on +It's just that we didn't know that I didn't hear what she said. +Before you give the answer. +Sorry. +I'd like to know what the question was. +She felt sorry. +I just make . +She felt intimidated by going into the foyer bar. +Yeah it doesn't actually seem . +Can I just say two things on that first of all I think you're right. +Secondly I think the sad thing is is that at one time the idea of the foyer bar was the fact that er mother's and children go in for a coffee facility or tea facility now I'm I'm one of one of the problems about criticism is is perhaps they don't know all the facts and one of the facts which I think astounded me was the actual local police stopped that and said that that wasn't permissible for if you were selling alcohol then it didn't it wasn't right that that children under age and young children were allowed in the same area and that was that was changed then we got a new a new police superintendent and he said it was permissible and then we got another super he went they don't stay very long in Harlow and we got somebody else came along and he said no that isn't permissible so we got very schizophrenic about what you could do with the foyer bar one minute you could have and the idea of about telling people and there young mothers going shopping come here for coffee, cakes for the children etc stop that we've now got a new superintendent in Harlow and I think with applied going back to him and saying well please advice us can we or can't we? +The last superintendent said we can't and I think the point you've raised is very valid since they actually stopped that facility said that they're not allowed in there it has I think gone into a situation where it isn't a very quite place erm and there problems about what goes on there etc and I think need to look at it. +But I personally feel that it needs complete refurbishment and that costs money I think that the points been raised earlier about having some sort of jazz pub here or some pub here is very bad and I think we could investigate that. +Can you think if we have something meal facilities which has also been raised if then maybe the stage door club area could be used for something like light rehearsal space which is always in demand. +Yeah. +Or another kind of committee room +Right. +Actually utilise our space not necessarily for the public which obviously is difficult to get to the disabled people etc but using it for something like that. +When we say when we say that that we stage door club is closed it closed in the place it's not open every evening but we do actually let it out we let it out to companies and whatever conference or companies who want a facility or meeting place something we do actually market that and we do actually ask people if they want to use it and in fact it has been taken up there. +But I've I think it is a valid facility but it depends what the facilities for. +Yeah. +I think the problem about having it as a a a perhaps a wine bar or something is that is that it's very difficult to get to and I think it don't does create problems for people but I think there is a solution there we just need to actually target the right use for it. +here. +Alan speaking for myself. +It's apparent from the meeting here that a number of people feel they have a grievance about the theatre and the way it's run, would it not be an idea for the board on a regular basis to invite users of the theatre to attend. +To approach them tell them how they feel about things rather than having to ring you up and make an appointment if only once a year or once every six months use a group . +Right you have to come I think the basis of this evening was to get people to come along and put there points of view and to say what's happening and what isn't happening and I think we can take that take that away and considerate it yes I mean I I think the board or the management committee will be happy to meet with people to discuss the use of the theatre er what it's used for what might what the unhappiness is if there is unhappiness and the positive and the positive as well as the negative points yes. +It would prevent there being a build up +Certainly we'll do that. +Yeah. +chap . +erm when I first started working in Harlow eighteen years ago one evening I came up just to see what the playhouse was all about. +I was shown round the building although there was a performance on by a very pleasant elderly doorman who's not here any more I've been coming ever since. +er is not a possibility of having more open days so that general public can come in to see what's happening and not only advertise in Harlow but advertise I live in Bishop's Stortford now in the surrounding districts erm time gets although you said you get fifty per cent of people coming from outside of Harlow it doesn't matter where the people come from as long as they come so more open days free erm to get people to come in and er particularly er outside people also I would suggest that the er chairman's of the local district council's who are not contributing be invited to the open day to see what er the playhouse is doing for the people who live in there er council area's to see whether we can get some more supports er as a Stortford resident I'd be quite happy to add a bit on my community charge to go to the playhouse.. +Perhaps er school children could be brought in when the theatre start's during the day who actually see how the theatre runs see what theatre's all about and they might be interested in the theatre.. +We have er demand for tours of the theatre schools in the area which were not able to meet. +It seems an ideal . +And it is you know it seems to take up quite a bit of time for members of staff and we do as many as we can but sometimes we have to say sorry we we can't do any more this week. +Peter from . +Chair can I make a suggestion quite clearly a large number of people have made some very good and valid recommendations or suggestions to you and the board this evening and you've said on many occasions this evening the board will obviously go away discuss those and take a view on the particular ideas. +Now might it not be also a very good idea then to report back to another public meeting with the results of those suggestions possibly done in a written form which could be freely available before the meeting so that people can discuss these in a structured way because I think this evening one of the problems about this evening is that points are being missed because issues are being jumped from one to another in no structured way and I think that it might be worth while for another meeting where it is structured but certainly to produce the results of your discussions internally to many of the ideas that you've heard this evening. +Here here. +Could I just make one suggestion that it's made within the next six months as well. +Here here. +With time permitting yes. +You've got six months for God's sake +Mr Chairman could I ask a question because one of the things that I've found missing this evening is specific things that people would like to see in this playhouse or perhaps specific things that we used to do and that find are missing and the last I haven't heard the word gallery mentioned from there much at all what do we think about the gallery? +Can I think. +.. +Well I'd like to speak about the gallery I like to speak for myself and er just the visual arts and er the gallery when it first started was a gallery very much appreciated by appreciated by the Eastern Region er they saw it as potential a very significant gallery in the whole region which would have been a marvellous thing for Harlow to have. +That has now changed Eastern arts no longer support the gallery now one obvious reason for that is the gallery started so well because of the enthusiasm from a number of professional people who came along and gave their advice and much of their time and such a body of people has not been called upon for a number of years now and once again a request to discuss this with Mr was refused. +We have the gallery still running reasonably well but it is one man ten hours a week his experience is badly limited this marvellous free resource is no longer being called for.. +. +You asked what people would like to see in the playhouse. +Is that being recorded? +Yes. +Yes. +Yes. +Yes. +That's a very valid point. +What I would like to see in the playhouse is an open system of government very much like our council professes to follow. +I would like to see agenda's for these meetings public available I'd like to see some commercial experience by a vote of general manager and their trustee's. +I'd like to see not cutting cutting costs raise in income and finally I'd can only see these things coming coming about with the resignation of the five people on the stage tonight.. +Janet erm Mr want's some practical suggestions I have one for goodness sake any show that's suitable for children charge those children half price that way you'll get . +. In ten years time if you just give them a derisory thirty pence off people leave their children at home make it easier for them to bring them with them.. +Yes. +Steve represent the association of Natural Body Builders. +Sir could you tell me why why the playhouse operates a policy whereby promoters cannot hire the venue outright. +Other theatres operate this system quite successfully with little or no financial risk at all. +Sorry can you just explain that when you say . +I wrote to Mr in February of last year. +Yeah. +Asking to erm promote a natural body building competition here erm the letter received back was we didn't feel it was suitable. +On trying to contact Mr by phone I have on many occasions I was put off to say he wasn't available I have also come to the foyer at the bottom asked to see Mr after twenty minutes wait and nobody turned up I decided to retire. +I again last month wrote to Mr to try a promote a drug free competition for a Sunday giving various dates of nineteen ninety two and have yet to hear. +I would like to know why this policy is that er that you didn't consider this a venue of body building to be suitable if it's not erm it's gonna put bums on seats and generate income to towards the trust why not?. +Sorry. +Someone . +Can you answer the question please +I I I was certainly with that question has been recorded and I I can't answer immediately but obviously you you what you've said we'll take that up with the management committee and come back to you straight away. +. +Okay. +Can I also point out that erm the association of natural body builders stipulate that a contest must be held in a seated theatre such as this. +Right. +Supplying cafeteria and bar facilities and there's no one else in Harlow to seat four hundred plus people and that's like regulars and if the Harlow playhouse turn around and say no we're not interested where else are we to go? +In in this instance the Harlow Sports Centre been very kind in doing everything they can to host this venue and hopefully in the near future the Harlow playhouse will open their arms also thank you.. +Yes yes. +Sarah . +I have been using the playhouse for about ten years now and going back to the point that someone made earlier about sex well about erm racism sexism is doesn't that count as censorship. +The same as the way that this gentleman has found it's somebody else making a decision to what people can see and I don't consider some a show like Pro's and Con's which had female nudity and two hundred and fifty people walk out in one night to mean something which I think is enhancing to the playhouse.. +I'd like to take up a couple of points if I may about getting some erm we were talking before mentioned children coming in on a regular basis er it's called living. +What about getting those children as they go out a voucher that their parents can bring them along to see a show at a reduced rate. +We've got there interest they come they've seen they've seen how the theatre works let them come to see the theatre working. +Then there's a lady over here who comes or used to come on a regular basis a couple of times a month she comes now a couple of times a year. +Encourage her to come back more often you'll not only sell the seats you'll sell the drinks you'll sell the ice cream you make good profit from those and every theatre and every promotional help is done. +Drinks and ice creams are profits right. +Then we talk about the lady from Sawbridgeworth who said she get's no incentive I get my incentive use by using my leisure card that lady gets no incentive to come back. +What about some sort of sticker that she gets that can use the use of her period of time another idea to around. +Right is there any body that hasn't asked a question who would like to ask one? +Yeah. +Sorry. +You asked about the gallery. +Yes. +Eh personally I think it's . +Your sorry your name?. +Peter from Harlow Society of Art. +I personally think the gallery's grossly under used you have a large number of exhibitions that seem to extend over six to eight weeks. +Personally I think it should be restricted to about four weeks and get more exhibitions in there for wider variety and also there's a number of er travelling exhibitions around the country that come down North er from up North down to the South to show around here that you can book these any time you want er I talked to somebody organised an exhibition in London and they are quite willing to come to Harlow you book us and we have nothing like this at all. +And all that's repetition going around. +. +All we seemed to get is abstract art which people in Harlow means so few appreciate which I quite understand... +Ehm Ron . +There's been some concern about the complete show of publicity particularly for studio theatre show's the amateur ones. +Sometimes there's a good write up beforehand sometimes there's nothing. +Is any body pacifically in charge of publicity or is it a committee meeting eh committee do more can you tell me er who's in charge? +We produce a press release every week in advance send it out in forty three publications. +It's funny er even even though there's about five free paper's er sometimes there isn't a write up at all I'm not talking about your your panel. +No. +A lit little write up through through pub this would surely bring more people in if they knew what was . +We are constantly talking to the press try and persuade them to give us more coverage. +Some newspapers do The Star... +. +I I I dislike the concern about the communication level between the general manager and the board. +erm I'd we we have a number of suggestions er a gentleman over there about the er body building was that reported back to you for a start and did you discuss this? erm you know I I really thought it sort of modern management techniques if there applied here like team working net working it's it this way you could actually begin to perform as the committee at the moment your the shadowy figures in the background. +The only person that I know about at the playhouse is Gordon. +erm so I'm aware I'm I just like to know if Gordon is actually aware of the terms like team working net working erm . +Has he been on any recent training courses to discuss this?. +You missed a couple off that proactive I think is the buzz word it's called seem less production so . +If you want . +I'm not into buzz words +I would suggest you to ask that question in fact you'll ask Gordon afterwards. +Okay. +Is there anybody hasn't asked a question who would like to ask one. +My name is Buzz stage art technical art.. +I've come in this theatre in nineteen seventy five. +I came here as a company stage manager from Oxford playhouse company. +Listening to all this tonight reading that article in The Star which I personally disliked intensely +Here here +I want to say the thing that's happening at the moment in my difficult life that I'd hold onto like a drowning man with a log. +One thing that works at this time forget today and yesterday and all the week it's the number of children that come into this playhouse now we have us we have a thing called work experience where they come from the school's and the poor little bugger's have gotta work with me.. +If they go away and say I'll be back Buzz I'll be back. +And they come back and see me what they taken from here and seen in other papers is a privilege for me if I've set them off in my biased Welsh way.. +But they do come back loads of them and we send them off everywhere into dance into acting into trade shows we've got a terrific act on here all you people who strive and slave towards making this playhouse work we're a bloody miracle. +But don't lets knock it to death don't lets kick it this place saved my life I almost killed myself trying to fulfil those that we've been talking about. +I've done over fifty of them I'm still standing up just about. +Fifty that's a hell of a lot of show's and a lot of Mrs and a lot of Mr and a lot of Janet I love you you know. +.a bit of all of you lot so come on people you're not doing yourself justice. +Can I sort out . +Chairman I haven't got a question my name is Harold er I come from Bishop's Stortford, er I work in Harlow and I don't think that you should necessarily forget that some of the people are not residents in Harlow do in fact work in Harlow . +Your absolutely right . +Yes. +Erm I I've done a lot of listening this evening er and I'm sure you have too from from the way in which the the rest of the board have been responding er with there eyes and ears even if they haven't always been open. +erm I'd like to be a little bit positive about certain things this evening too because I too believe that you've got a very good programme. +I think you maintain an excellent record in that but it does still come back to getting people into the theatre. +And one of the things that I'm not sure we have addressed adequately now and perhaps won't this evening is how to get people into the theatre and I really thing that it would be worthwhile trying to find out stops people coming in. +erm marketing is certainly one one and possibly does needs some more er attention but there were one or two things that that struck me as as er you went by and you asked to comment and and maybe give a small one that there will pick up on. +erm we actually find it quite hard to book our seats. +If you pick up the phone and ring to get seats here you will very often find that you can't get through. +There must be a way round that. +Because I can't believe if you come in the off peak periods there really aren't that many people here erm I can't believe that the phone is so busy that that we're actually being stopped in making from reservations. +I've listened to a lot of interest to to the people who've been commenting about the future and the schools and the young children coming in. +erm just just as something totally off the top of my head erm I very much regretted the demise of the proper programme erm and in fact I I actually object to the paying twenty pence for something that er really doesn't represent value for money. +But just as a thought for you since the school's are involved and since children are involved in a number of these things perhaps it has been tried I don't know erm you might actually be able to get a more regular input not only from the children and their but also from their par ents by perhaps involving or asking the schools to become involved in the production of the programme. +erm that would maintain a regular interest from the schools and also from the children involved. +Right your absolutely right about the programme. +Yeah and I'll certainly and I we think are actually in process in looking at that lot as a rule that's a very valid point . +People are getting fidgety people are leaving can I just. +Can we just. +Can I sorry could I could I take obviously take some question people wish to ask a question because I think it's important that before people start drifting away we actually bring the meeting to some conclusion and determine where we're gonna go with the meeting once it's actually passed. +So can I take people who actually haven't spoken already I think that's the fairest way. +There's a lady here. +Ehm er chair er Sheila from Harlow secretary of the film society which has operated here since the playhouse opened moved from the town hall er we do get people past the door we have been doing in years erm and I personally I'm also here as an individual I've been an arts lover for forty five years of my life in Harlow. +erm and I'd just got one comment that I like to make and er then the question. +The comment is about publicity in Harlow itself and and just around it erm the environment. +When I came to Harlow I was stuck by what a lovely neat town it was then erm but there were er absolutely no posters anywhere in Harlow. +It's a tiny little things you know er in glass cases now there are a few at bus stops but a lot of people don't use bus stops any more you know they drive erm I know that posters great hoardings that we some of us probably grew up with when everybody knew what was on and the great big posters everywhere. +Posters also teach young people how to develop a sense of erm they also make life much more fun more interesting and erm this is great contrast with Harlow and an urban area like Greater London area where as the report by erm in er the report the report on observation in London you know didn't mention the fact that publicity is of course is much more much greater than the London area erm and erm er one thing I see is missing could er er the reason is we found er the film society we can't advertise our events very well because of the restrictive bylaws on advertising poster advertising in Harlow I wonder if something could be done about this? +Cos that's one reason a lot of Harlow people don't know what's on don't erm you know they they don't really have contact with erm they don't always use Harvey. +So. +Er erm I'm sorry it is the question now that I'm going to come to was going back to organisation how often does the board meet? and who does it regard as ? +Sorry . +John Company Secretary. +erm in the first place there are no bylaws restricting the display of posters in Harlow erm there are however town planning er restraints on and indeed there are a recognised number of sites which can be used for that purpose. +erm on the question of the board all is answerable to the general meeting of the er company it's held in the Autumn of each year. +Right is there anybody that hasn't asked a question . +It's not so much a question it's a comment. +Yes erm listening to the punters I mean I know loads of people come up here and there's one thing which all of them tend to say and that this place is threatening. +They come in and they're worried about the place they they feel it unfriendly. +What the auditorium or the whole ? +Ev the whole building. +The whole building. +It's tacky it's erm well as soon as they come in the door they wanna walk out and that that's an overall opinion that's not just me or a couple of mates that's everybody. +And what I'd like to know is is the board. +That's your opinion not mine not everybody. +I didn't say it was mine I said it was the people I've spoken to. +Eh er don't sorry. +Right so can I have my opinion or or can I speak with these other people's opinion +Yes please do +or shall we listen to you? +please do +Right I am saying it's people that I've spoken to. +Right okay. +Is that clear it's people that've spoken to. +Yeah. +Thank you. +Right has the board consider giving this place I mean I I understand the the trouble with money etc but looking at making this place more inviting, at all? +Yeah I mean have they just sort of said okay right as it is that'll do or are they seriously looking at making this place an inviting place to come to? +Yeah I mean two things. +First of all the as you I think you touched on the board's got to work on a budget. +That's right yeah. +Money is tight so we need to be quite clear on I mean for instance I mean the seats have been recovered you know people smoking in the seats when they shouldn't be smoking and putting they're putting their cigarette's out on the floor I don't know +Oh yeah but were not talking about. +No I'm not so I mean things like that there's wear and tear I mean the seats have to be recovered the carpet's have to be replaced the place has to be redecorated yes we do that. +I mean the foyer when you come in to the building when the place was refurbished that was that we got the consultant's to look at the into the foyer and what you see as you come into the building is the recommendations of those consultants were talking about having a red foyer making it inviting and friendly that was their recommendation which was adopted. +The whole carpeting of the building which has been done was that the consultants come in look at colour schemes and say this is what to do. +So yes the answer to the question is yes there is a budget there is a budget and we need to do things now one of the problems could be the budget isn't sufficient to cover all that needs doing so I think you'll find that the building been built at a certain time there a comes a time you've got plan a maintenance programme which we have things need to be done. +I think we need I accept I think we need to look at certain areas we need to look at the entrance I mean if we were doing the entrance again we would have electric doors on what like they've got on the Harvey Centre so you don't have to fight your way in I'm thinking of doors like this we'll do that. +The colour the what the lay out of the foyer we would look at again to make it more inviting more friendly we'll do that. +And I think when we talk in terms in getting around to spending the money we have got then we need to look quite clearly about how you make a place more inviting and it's also about when people come into the building how they're met what the receptionists like, when they ring up can they get through and I mean I'm I'm surprised that's said about the tickets that I think that our reception ticket areas an excellent area the people working there are first class are very friendly very helpful so it's trying to get that sort of concept through the building I thin k we work on that I think the building's kept very clean people who clean the building are very good but I hear what you're saying and I thinks it's been said earlier by the lady here by the foyer downstairs she feels threatened when she goes into that bar because I think the whole decor and the way it is is a threatening place I think we need to look at those so that was an old and . +But this this is spilling out onto the steps of the place. +You've got you've got rubbish everywhere for a start . +Well that is +Is that is that the Council or is that the playhouse. +That's people. +Well first of all that's people. +If you actually you actually look at the front of the building there's a great deal of money been spent there's been new flower er boxes put out there. +Yes. +It's all been replanted and apart the fact that people pull them out is . +So why is there not somebody responsible security say why why don't they go out there and stop it? +I mean I've I've chased more people off +Here here +I've chased more people off than the security has. +. +Now have they got a directive to look after the front now or not? +I really I really do wish it was that simple and I wish that when I pick up The Star on a Thursday or one of the other local papers that I didn't read in it the twenty cars that's broken into and and all the other problems and I say to myself now why did that happen. +All I do know is that we're very conscious a great deal of money's been spent by the Council and by the Trust to try and make the place outside more inviting those tubs been put there er they been planted etc there's a lot of litter there we've put litter bins there there's taxi rank there there's lot's of things been put there I think the problem is it isn't the people who do that I mean it's the people who actually do the litter and it's quite clear that we do go out we do tidy up but it happens and it's a case of balance of what we can do and what you can't do but we do work at it I can assure you. +Surely Tom one of the main criteria should be placing seats in the studio theatre for something with a bit more comfortable that way perhaps the punter's will come back more often it's easier to make a punter come back than it is getting in there in the first place.. +Are you anybody Dor I've got erm Doris here is is there anybody hasn't asked I wanna sort of brig to some conclusion because people are getting restless Doris. +Tom mine is a comment and a request. +erm as many people here know and like them I have worked in a voluntary capacity and one way or another in this theatre for many years and we can't do without it we don't want to see it close or any of those drastic things. +Were all very concerned to keep it open and keep it flourishing. +Here here +And with this in mind and I'm I'm you will notice that I haven't spoken at all and that is quite deliberate on my part but then I can also say the same for many people sitting round here who know quite well that they haven't spoken either. +Is it possible for some of us and perhaps representative's of organisations or a group of us and I know I can talk to the board but I'm not necessarily speaking for anybody else if I natter to you other than myself. +And I think it's very important that people can come and talk to you and some representative's of the board because there is unrest Tom and I'm not prepared to stick my neck out and say in what quarter this lies but it can be got over it can be ironed out because running a theatre is to do with team spirit and that team spirit get's conveyed to the public. +A happy theatre a happy ship if you like a corny phrase to use is very very apparent and I'm sure my colleagues and friends around here would appreciate because they do believe they can't get at the management committee and they would like to so please Tom will that be possible at some time in the near future? +I assume so yes but erm also well yeah well yeah fine +Thank you + +Interviews on Wednesday twenty sixth of January. +Good discussions with Trevor . +Right Trevor have you got your application form for me ? +I have yes. +I have it there somewhere. +While I'm erm a look at that, I've got some brief notes here from Norman er you were with financial services for some time yeah? +Yes a few years. +Twenty six? +Few years. +Yeah. +Wow what a what a survivor. +. +But erm I understand that er is it or ? +Have +Yes. +made it very difficult for people. +Well it's I got the option to er I got the option to erm take a golden handshake so +Oh right redundancy offered yeah. +Well not redundancy it was er what you call severance. +Oh right okay. +It was cos it was change of contract. +You'll see it in there +Okay right. +and er and the the comments of me of me erm of me manager and me assistant manager +Right. +they didn't want me to go naturally. +Mm you're you've made the decision have you? +Er I've made the decision I've gone I've gone. +Oh you've +Finished finished. +All right. +So now I'm look for another erm job you see . +Opportunity and er there aren't too many around unfortunately in the in the bracket of the fifties. +No I know . +Which I'm in as well. +Erm while I'm having a look at this although it wouldn't seem to me to be taking too long to look at this Trevor, what you see on the table over there +Yes. +is a a selection of product representing all six companies +Right. +that we have. +Where we have erm er advertising consultants. +Yes. +If you'd like to have a a quick look through those while I'm er, please ask any questions while you're looking through, and I'll ask any questions that I'll need to here . +Right okay okay. +Although in this case er since nineteen sixty eight +it erm not very much to ask you about is there? +Not really. +Mm. +You've given a couple of reference here +Yes. +and er you know I I read them fairly straightforward +Yes. +er and you've put them under business references, are they businesses these? +Er no they're they're my mana who I used to who my boss. +Ah right okay. +Okay. +My my er just a minute now this one +They're not on letter headings and so I just thought they might be +No no erm they're private okay. +You know they're private really statements cos they don't want the you know they they +Company used +they they're not allowed to say for the company. +I mean you can still get a reference off me old company which er you know the London +Yeah. +Er there's also a solicitor there as well. +Okay. +Some give some don't. +Yes that's right. +But it was from the but they wouldn't they're not allowed see they're not allowed now see there's another LAUTRO yeah yeah +Oh yes I know . +They're not to write it on letter heading cos it means it says it's coming from the London. +Yes okay. +London er er in fact the insurance companies are fairly erm rigid on this now. +Some won't just won't +Yes yes +give them now. +Well the London is very rigid. +You know what I mean. +Er +Right. +I mean the fact that you've got them here er +They were they were rigid before the even the LAUTRO came in. +D'ya know what I mean? +Yes. +They were you know +Now you're not from this part of the country by the sound of it ? +No. +No I've been I've been here a long time like +You down in the Smo from the Smoke somewhere? +Er no no. +I'm er Edmonton London. +Oh that's what I meant. +Edmonton oh yes Smoke is it +Smoke the Smoke is +I thought you meant the Midlands or something. +No no no. +The Smoke is another name for London. +Yeah. +Or was in my young young days anyway. +I see here you er say you've done door to door canvassing +Yes. +Er in what aspect in the financial services? +Yes. +When did you er where did you do that up here? +Yes. +Up here yeah. +We had an ongoing er thing you know what I mean that erm er now and again they used to have pushes and we used to out and do a little bit door +Or what we what we call a blitz in some companies . +Yes that's right yeah yeah. +All right. +That entailed door to door canvassing then? +Yes. +How did you feel about that? +Oh I don't mind it I don't mind it . +I mean there aren't many companies now that would er probably ask you +No no no. +to do that. +No. +We we er we used to do it like just for door openers really. +Oh okay. +Door openers really cos there's that you know yeah yeah. +I don't mind it. +How do you think erm you're gonna face the er, you gonna get withdrawal symptoms from the financial services? +Not really no no. +No I don't think so no. +Looking forward to a change are you? +Well just yeah +Mm mm. +yeah. +I thought it was ch you know as a challenge so I thought I would go. +Okay. +Erm you received our corporate brochure and you got a certain amount of information from er from Norman on the phone. +Erm what have you gleaned from the er the brochure? +Well that erm that what it is it's selling erm like to estate agents and that er printing material is that right? +Well exactly what you see there on the. +Well it's not no we don't sell the printed material +Yeah oh I see. +we sell the advertising on the printed material . +Material. +Or we supply the whole of that er those documents you see there. +So you're like a erm like a booklet or something like that that they want to present er for say the clients are you with me? +If they're selling +Well if you +a house or +Er yes yes if you take er what you the products you see +Yep. +down this end here on that table +Yep. +you will see at the top the A four marketing folder +Yeah. +all right? +Hope did you have a look in one of those? +Yes I did yeah. +Okay inside you will see er a number of advertising spaces +Yep that's right. +all right. +Now our advertising consultants sell that space. +Oh I see. +The folder itself is the free gift if you like er to the estate +Yes oh I see +agent which we provide. +I see. +But the only way we can do that of course is to erm have some form of funding. +Yeah. +Now Norman would have er hopefully explained most that on the phone. +Yeah. +The important thing for me to emphasize to you er Trevor is that we don't make appointments to go and see people to talk about advertising. +Right. +Certainly erm I don't know what Norman says, but I would say on the phone to you, Let's make it absolutely clear that this is er in the main a telesales operation. +Right. +But it's not like the local newspaper and it's not like having a group of young people on a bank of telephones phoning every +Right. +individual er business in sight +Yeah. +Is that is that how it came across to you er through the brochure ? +No no I thought it would be I thought it would be er out there meeting you know companies or whatever +Mhm. +and er trying to market the their their the advertising in the brochure. +Well it certainly is the advertising. +But one of the things that we have discovered over twenty year is the only way you will get people to come into that brochure is to make absolutely certain before you go and see them is to +Right. +tell them everything. +Right. +Now in financial services that's why I'm homing in er it'll be a dramatic change for you erm what whatever you go to let alone advertising. +Erm er we close on the phone. +Right I see. +In other words er unlike financial services where you have to go and talk to people about their financial +Yeah. +state +Yeah. +financial health check I think one company calls it. +Erm and then may be go away and calculate what er sort of deal they need +Yes. +that it not the case here. +We tell them the price because we know the price almost immediately. +I see. +So erm that certainly is how +I'm used to er I'm not like the London's a little bit different that other er financial services +In in what respect? +Well that mostly you most people have this impression like that you do the er come away and then go back again. +Right? +I know I know lap stops exists now of course. +Yes that's right. +Well what I mean we we don't do lap tops actually. +Don't do +What whichever. +But erm never mind. +Er we do the sales sometimes on the first on most cases now on the first er interview. +But that's still face to face you mean? +Yes face to face yeah. +Erm most other companies I know do it on two interviews. +Right yeah. +You know what I mean? +Two interviews you know. +So we we're used +So you do the close +We're used to doing it up there and then you know. +All right. +There and then. +In fact er double glazing and kitchen people try to close on that first meeting but they +Yes. +still have to do measurements they can't do it on the phone you see. +That's right yeah. +So whereas most financial services people er that come to us erm would have put down here er as you have, er in answer to our question, Have you qualified sales by telephone? +You've answered yes. +Yes. +What you've done is qualified appointments by telephone. +Whereas we +Not always no not always . +Okay well tell me no tell me please do because +Yeah. +our impression is and that's this is er people like yourself sitting there, is that er you will have qual you know you won't go and see people er unless +I have to qualify erm you see. +Er you have to keep your costs down +Right yes. +Okay you have to keep your cost down. +Oh they're alright. +I had a damn good clear up here. +With Damian? +Yes. +Ha! +I'll love it if he's here today. +Today. +Ah little Damian! +Matthew. +Matthew. +Tarquin. +Why d'ya say Damian? +Cos he's evil. +He looks like, you know, have you seen it +Yeah. +Have you seen it erm +Hello! +What is wrong with you two? +You're so dumb! +I hate him. +Your Mum loves him. +Come and give Aunty Barbara a big cuddle! +He gets on your nerves though. +Oh that little one +No! +that was there today? +He was cute! +What? +Yeah. +Doo doo, doo doo . +. +Ah you're joking! +Want two or three? +Well I did. +What happened? +She's meant go to the bun shop. +But ah ah! +Ah man's gonna starve +Are you going down there? +Go upstairs and get some +Me. +I'll walk down there with you. +I mean buns. +I dunno where the bun shop is. +The bun shop. +I know where it is. +Where? +Do you wanna take my +Just down there. +car Craig. +Yeah I'll take your car. +Well you know what I'm so hungry! +Ah yeah, we'll leave it and we all just, we miss it out. +. +And no one 's going there? +It's alright I'm not hungry. +No, Claire was going but she had, didn't have time on the way back +Mm. +Cor I really ache! +Get a quarter pounder large fries +Ah! +I don't like any burgers in there but I love it! +Yeah, get MacDonalds. +I was being bossy last night just couldn't hack it. +What d'ya think? +What? +Yeah well Matthew's alright. +He's not like +Thomas ain't in a good mood is he? +Tom ain't in a good mood . +Why? +Dunno . +He was alright with me. +He goes +Right, you finished +where's your +those nearly? +Yeah, they've bought us them out and they were dirty a minute ago so I'm putting them back. +I went to him alright Tom? +He goes, shut up! +Do you want us to put them back in now the customers have started rolling in? +Pardon? +Do you want us to put them back in? +Are there customers yet? +Ah so you've nearly finished those lot? +You look tired. +I feel it. +I had about Friday night I finished work here at twelve and then up again at and I got about two hours sleep then and I started to . +I worked till to, last night in the end. +Did you? +Cos I said to , I said I know Sally can't work, I said but she wasn't supposed to be working anyway. +But I thought you were asked to. +Yeah, no, I was supposed +That's right. +to do every other +Yeah with me. +so, then I told him that I'm not doing it any more . +Well I don't like to do that one. +Ain't you doing no more? +I can't do it next week, I can't do it next week. +What you doing next week? +Erm Emma's boyfriend is having a party at Village Hall. +Mm. +I've got a party at Morecambe Village Hall. +Mm +Are you going? +Twentieth party. +Twenty first birthday. +Should be a good laugh actually, all the boys +When are they having a party? +Claire? +Ah? +When are they having a party? +Shoes in a plastic bag. +Who? +Emma and Simon. +Next week. +Next week? +Can I come? +Am I too late to Craig do you wanna do something? +Yeah alright. +dry those. +alright I'll dry them. +Cos I've gotta get er Craig, you can come if you drive home. +Pardon? +You can come if you drive home. +No. +I'm gonna get out of me head I see him putting them over here. +Oi! +Mm +Now. +Did you say milky? +Looks like pure hot milk. +Did someone write one +I don't feel like you're under pressure to do things do you? +It's nice that top. +You're joking ? +Nah. +I think it's alright. +Cor! +Well no one else thinks it is. +. +Who? +Yeah, oh I don't like her . +She's got a moustache. +Well Vicky has, but she can't help it. +No Vicky's got a beard. +No I've got a beard. +! +Oh. +Teaspoon. +If you dry up and put them there now cos it's nearly . +I got nice baggy arse here. +Are they riding jodhpurs aren't they? +Yeah, well, such a shame. +Can I have the erm grey thing here? +You gotta wear that now? +Oh don't take no notice, notice love. +No, no, it's quite short. +It's horrible! +Jo, is yours starting at half past? +Yeah you gotta wear your sunglasses. +Wow! +I'm gonna copy you. +Well don't she +Of course. +Nice one! +Stay with me, don't move +We'll ask her later. +Ask the same person and I'll catch it on tape. +Go on. +Matthew! +Can someone help me? +When Billy's clear . +Ah? +Shh! +You alright? +Cheers man. +Cheers. +I ain't doing no more. +Forget it. +Don't do any more then! +Alright then . +For God's sake, no point wasting it. +Alright. +See ya later. +Get back in there! +What? +Get back in the kitchen! +right, Craig's just about to beat up Jane man, and he's hitting her because she's meant to have taped over something and I'm taping over even more of it now! +That boy is fucking shit! +Shut up ! +Right, they're having a row, now Vicki storms in and they're all rowing. +Vicki's trying to protect Jane cos Jane's such a little bitch of a shit hole she can't defend herself. +She got curly hair right, and rubbery lips but she's alright. +She's got a jean jacket on, a flowery shirt, a pair of jeans and pair of them boots, black boots, they look alright. +And she's got a crappy Just Seventeen choker around her neck, it is so shit! +Can you please say this on the mike. +Bollocks! +That was Jane. +What was fucking shit! +Where's Rob? +Where's Rob? +We just got a little boy here called Wayne and he don't know what he's fucking talking about. +Bollocks! +Nah, cos right we're just gonna say as much as can on this tape. +Have you got something say? +What? +Got something to say? +No, why? +What? +Oh she's just a bit shy. +It's okay. +Just swear. +Bollocks! +Bollocks ! +How much do you get an hour? +Two fifty. +Two fifty? +I thought you got three quid. +Claire gets more than you then. +Oh please let me sit down. +Claire? +Mm. +How much do you get an hour? +Three quid. +How much do you get? +Ah no! +He's been working his time man. +Ah! +That's out of order. +Ah nah! +Ah ha ah ! +Three pound is right. +That's the , yeah but that's the rate I said to Nicola, I wasn't working less than that. +Ooh you're getting . +How much is he earning? +What? +How much? +Two fifty. +He's er, he's been working all that time and he's been getting two fifty. +Ain't even bothered to ask to go up. +Oh shit! +Well he ought to talk to Nicola about that. +Pardon? +That's out of order that is, the girls go mental over that. +I wanna look at the animals. +Pardon? +What are they? +Groovers! +Martina's having the same thing done. +Martina's having the B and B. +He said watch it when you go to leave +I thought +that was your drink Paul. +No I never drink the stuff Gill. +Yes you do! +Never drink it love. +By the bucketful! +Never drink the stuff. +There's a load of crap! +Yeah. +Hurry up. +Yes. +I ain't going back to school. +Not going back +What's that? +till tomorrow. +What? +Have you been taping everything on it? +Can I listen to it? +I ain't got no headphones. +How long you been taping it for? +This is my second tape. +I've done a tape already. +What of. +People talking. +I've gotta do it, it's my homework for school. +Hideous stuff! +Hideous stuff! +You know them, like, little sledgehammers, like little hammers about that big about ten kids jumped him, yeah? +Yeah! +Sixteen year old, yeah? +He was on his bike six kids jumped him and said give us your bike they, they took his bike off him gave him a hammering right on the nose, broke his nose. +Three years ago that happened and his nose it's still like that. +Mashed up. +John, he went up to John's house, John come and picked up and they back to John's and John come back to the Phoenix and he had, you know the umbrella things? +Yeah. +His has got like, it's like a a stake, like a +Yeah. +a really pointed thing, he brought that down with him. +But they'd gone. +They'd buggered off. +Bastards! +Mates of theirs if there's a fight they come back with blades and that and like baseball bats, hammers, they get ready for a fight, but they're all gone. +What's up? +Keep practising Craig. +Did you sort it out? +What did they say? +Yep. +What did they say? +Er er pay me some more money. +How much er pay rise? +How long's Michael gone away for? +Don't know. +How much you getting a pay rise for? +It's about ten , fifty P. +I, no, the reason I got that is cos I said to Nicola I'm not working less than three pound, cos I'm gonna over four pounds there. +I, I I only get three pound in the office. +Yeah I'm only I'm not working for two pound fifty. +And how long have you been working here? +Well you're best to go hourly than shifts, than erm +Six months, and you'll be,three fifty, and she's only just started getting three quid. +It's only cos I said +Yeah. +otherwise I would have been on two fifty. +If you do didn't you say anything before? +It's not exactly hard work here though is it? +I mean I could work at the for three pound an hour. +It is if I work Saturday night. +But you're not doing Saturdays? +Are you? +Was Claire doing down here last Saturday night? +It was a good atmosphere in the restaurant last night. +Thank you. +Where's your little erm have you got a blind thing you know? +What,up there ? +No, a little erm Oh! +Stop it! +You know what I mean a +a chain thing. +Right, any more? +Any more? +That's it. +Yeah Dad, can I have a Coke please? +Don't call him Dad behind, behind the bar. +Alright. +John. +Here John! +Got a couple of shiners ain't he? +Bet he's +Yeah. +been in a fight. +Cor! +He ain't even seen a fight though has he? +Who? +That bloke, he's got two massive . +John, you didn't do that to that gentleman behind the bar did you, smashed his eyes? +Who? +With the black eyes ? +Has somebody been playing with these taps? +No. +Oh don't say that! +Are you going back to nan's this afternoon? +No, I doubt it. +Are you gonna go home? +I bet your Mum might be pleased to see you. +Yes. +Who was that this morning? +Was that your Dad? +Got a new car? +It's nice innit? +What is it, one ninety or three hundred? +Dunno. +He's not interested in cars are you Martin? +Nah. +Now you would know +He just , he just drives them,he don't care what they are, he just drives them . +You gotta get that roof off that erm jeep though. +Cor! +Yeah! +It's gotta be done. +All the girls'll be chasing you down the road. +Ee ee ee ee! +Is it soft top? +It like, it comes off. +So he's actually taken it off? +Yeah. +It takes about an hour to take it off. +Well +It's not the sort of thing you can take with you. +If it's pouring like with rain and go out +No it doesn't fold up. +You just take it off. +Well, you wouldn't need to have it . +Yeah. +I want one like what Lisa's got. +I've never seen that one before. +The only thing with the folded ones +What? +I know they roll over though. +The only thing +I've never seen it before that one. +John, the only thing with the folded ones +It takes ages. +About six months. +is people break into them and they er, only need a knife don't they? +Yes Craig they +Break it open. +do don't they? +Yeah. +How do you know that Craig ? +Cos I do. +Right? +With a soft top, yeah the easiest thing to do is just get a knife, stick it in and slit it and you've got a little hole to get in. +That's the only thing with soft tops. +Oh yeah, they're easier to break into. +Yeah. +I want a Golf convertible. +That's my dream. +Cor! +Yeah! +G C I. +Sod all the B M W's and that. +May , when I'm older have one of them. +I wanna get a little Fiesta. +A white one +Ford Fiesta. +with purple stripes on the side. +Oh no. +I had one Fiesta. +It's just , that's the Ghia. +What? +I'm really pissed off. +They're, I reckon they're taking piss, forty minutes late last night! +Out of work, didn't get out of work until twenty to seven on a Saturday night. +Hello! +Woo ooh! +Alright? +Can I have two halves of shandy please. +That's, it's horrible to see that in the family. +He only got a from a customer . +Oh, oh right. +And he said and he brought it up about three years later. +You owe me,he said. +What? +What are you talking about ? +You wouldn't have known whe who they are. +Yeah . +You get this sort of thing, especially if, you go +I wasn't the best man , I was in the right place at the right time. +Yeah I know. +Well, well tha that doesn't matter. +Yeah . +Well he didn't know where to go or what happened. +Oh yeah . +Are you gonna take this ball up regular then Craig? +Yeah. +Eh? +Yeah. +That's what I said I, if I'm down like Sunday he says that I can play. +Yeah. +Yeah. +That's the stuff. +Yeah. +But you're not around every Wednesday night to represent the team? +No. +It, in the holidays I am, but +Yeah. +last year in the holidays I was around all the time but +Well that's right. +Yeah. +Yeah. +That's right. +When we used to go, we used to go to Nicks together? +Yeah. +Ha. +Do you want a pint? +Yeah. +! +Yeah. +No Lisa actually went. +Yeah but he'll get one. +Yeah . +Get out of here! +Nah. +I've crushed it with one of them balls. +That's why it bounced awkwardly. +Are you gonna take your roof down Martin? +It's such a nice day. +Yep. +Yeah . +He'll take the whole thing apart! +Get your tin opener out. +hee hee Only cost fifty P. +Aren't you gonna stay in at home and working all day? +Thing is I'm not working. +I don't use reverse. +Just +Apart from me.. +Yeah. +Phone! +No it's not. +No one 's listening . +Weren't really busy was it today? +Oh is that Don? +Yeah I know. +Go and crawl up his arse. +Bloody school tomorrow!! +Going back tonight or tomorrow morning? +Tomorrow morning. +What early? +I'm gonna have to get up at four. +Get home by seven. +Have you hurt your eyes? +Yeah. +Rubbing it, where you +Yeah. +Got eyelash in my eye. +I get a funny twitch in it. +The nerve goes, phew +It's horrible when it +A bit dodgy ! +Yeah. +You, lee ee ee ee ee ee. +Was the club busy last night? +Er, yeah it was ja , it was really packed, it was a nightmare. +It was a good night actually. +Where do you park? +Outside. +Outside? +I thought you should be in all the roads'll be blocked off. +We found a space with nothing in just outside. +Where did all the lads go last night? +Dunno. +Didn't ask them. +John was in a funny mood. +Don't they usually come up here on a Saturday night? +Sometimes. +Depending where they wanna go. +No point in coming here all the time, it's boring. +Yeah. +Like, Friday night all the boys came up and then they picked me up and we didn't come back. +If we'd have stayed here there would have been no trouble. +The Phoenix used to be such a good pub. +there was always the, that big blokes who live down there started all the trouble. +I left right, right, I ran off I jumped out the car because I heard them driving round the corner +Yeah. +and I didn't really wanna be there when they found them, and erm yeah I ran back to the pub and the police were there. +You ready then Jill? +You finished? +Yeah. +Did it rain heavy last night? +Er, yeah +Craig! +We know you're in there. +And listen to this you fucking bastard! +Fuck you arsehole! +Fuck you arsehole ! +aargh ! +Right. +Right. +Right Craig, can I ask you a personal question about Craig? +Er, depends +Do you think, do you think he's really nice looking? +Like, really, really gorgeous? +I suppose he's alright. +Yeah. +Do you think he's really, really bogus do you? +Course man. +He's wha , d'ya, what do you reckon Jay? +He's got nice eyes. +Yeah, he's got nice eyes. +And nice eyelashes. +Nice arse. +But he's still a bastard ! +Cunt ! +Take the mic out and hold, hold the mic. +Cunt ! +I'll pick it up and hold it. +You bastard ! +Right now, listen to a little story we've got to tell you right, okay? +When you get home we want you to listen to this good. +And then tomorrow you know where to meet me. +Yeah. +Right. +We want you to come round at what time Fay would be best? +I don't care. +Er er at half past six right? +Behind Raymond, near the estate office where the raili , black railings are and you'll see Fay there and you'll know what to do. +With her mouth open. +And Fay will give you the instructions from there . +Okay then? +See you later. +Pip. +Bye Pip. +Fay, what you got to say to him? +Go ! +And then Fay will fuck you! +Fuck you too arsehole! +That's from me ! +Bye! +Don't you want to say about shit and things like that? +Your Mum can't afford toilet paper, she has to slide down the banisters. +And listen! +And your Mum can't afford toilet paper for her pussy, so when she slides down the banister and says like blurgh, la blah la blah loo! +Your Dad uses a plastic bag for a condom. +At least my Dad can afford plastic bags, that's all I'm saying. +My Dad uses Durex's . +Yeah, but your Dad's Durex's have got holes in the top so that's a sly way of getting babies. +new bubble gum flavour. +New bubble gum flavour ! +I can't, trust Jay . +Who wi what his Dad wears bubbles gums on his cock. +A bit sticky innit? +It gets lost inside. +He has to stick his head up and go where the fuck has it gone ? +Yeah at my Mum enjoys it. +Yeah, your Mum's got dreadlocks under her arms and round her cunt. +dread, dread, er dreadlocks on her eyebrows. +How can my Mum have dreadlocks on her eyebrows? +They must be very small. +Cos she don't pluck them. +She don't pluck them? +Your Mum fucks them! +How can you fuck eyebrows? +Well you pull them out and stick them up there don't ya? +No! +Your Mum's been bald all her life. +She has to cut hairs off of your dolls and stick it on with Sellotape! +But when your Mum's not feeling well your Dad fucks her earhole instead. +Yeah. +Her earhole ain't big enough for fucking! +Yes yes it is. +No, I don't think so. +If you knows like how my big cock, my Dad's cock's like this. +And up her arse give her a shot. +Now that's against the law so I don't think so. +Probably get his tongue stuck and all! +What? +Come on then. +I'm not doing no more. +No it's your cuts , it's your cuts. +Oh what is it? +Oh hurry up I ain't got all night! +Your Mum's got so many hairs on her fanny Tarzan don't know which one to swing on! +I've he , I've heard that one before, but like it's just like this one innit? +Your Mum's fucking fanny is so wrinkly the crabs have got walking sticks. +? +How have I got ? +You have. +D'ya know what your got? +What? +You've got a fucking peanut with fucking chocolate around the top but that's shit, but listen +got this +Funny! +Your Mum ain't got no arms but she still wants to wear gloves. +Come on! +Hurry up ! +I ain't telling you no more cos I don't know none. +I don't know . +Come on them, let's get to slag at all you lot. +What's all that shit? +Your Mum does out of her fanny. +Your Dad throws fireballs out of his cock! +Then it burns! +Yeah, that's alright. +That's alright. +He has er er +That's why you're in don't he? +When he boom, they da , they have ha arms you ain't got no arms to wear that Arsenal top with so Your Mum and Dad that's why they massage it. +Yeah man, my Dad gets on a hard'un. +Your Dad can't get on a hard'un. +Your Dad stays like that. +Yeah, my Mum does a really hard smack. +Yeah come, tell your Mum to come here and lay back like this and let her touch my cock. +Phworgh! +Hey! +Tell your Mum to come here and I'll lay back and all. +Yeah, but my Mum wouldn't nowhere near you. +You're a little cunt though int ya? +Your +Say you got a maggot. +Nor would mine. +Yeah but she would because I just said it and you said nothing. +Go tell your Mum to to , stop changing her lipstick cos she's making my cock look like a rainbow. +Yeah, tell your Mum to give me the twelve pence, er, er the two P cos erm it wasn't, it wasn't worth last night. +Tell your Mum to give my money back, she ne , has your Mum fall pregnant yet? +Nah. +Tell your Mum to give her money +Er Wayne +back then. +What? +You must have touched her up the wrong way. +Yeah, I must have done mustn't I? +Up, what? +What did you say? +I say yeah I must have done mustn't I? +Yeah you did. +Yeah but Mum, you're being circumcised. +You've been circumcised and a maggot! +You've been circumcised! +That Jade thinks she a right horny bitch don't she? +Yeah. +Your Mum? +Like her Mum did you just say? +Yeah. +She'll slap me when she hears this. +She won't cos she's a old slag. +Ah ah! +Jade when listen to this you best beat him up bad. +I'll knock you out. +Tell her your , tell her your name. +My name's Jay and you're a slag! +Ah! +Jade, man. +How about Vicki? +Do you like Vicki? +Yeah. +Do you think she's horny. +Nah. +She's got a nice pair of legs ain't she? +Yeah. +Beautiful int they? +Yeah. +How about Fay, Craig's bird? +She's nice int she? +Yeah. +Do you think she's an horny girl? +Yeah. +Would you fuck her? +Yeah. +Would you Frenchie her? +Nah. +Why not? +Cos I don't wanna. +Cos she's got smelly breath. +Ah! +Fay, wait till you hear this, you best slap him as well. +She's nice though int she? +Nah. +Yeah we're gonna get all the birds and fuck them! +Yeah. +That narf nice. +Yeah man. +Fucking get the cocks out! +It'll be a good night tonight weren't it? +Yeah, man! +But you're not coming there so shut up! +No we're going Clacton, proper Clacton. +Yeah. +Gonna get all the girls, go swimming, fuck them in pool and the lot man! +Go under the water. +Yeah, there's three beds, three beds there. +So you think, what can we do with three beds? +You on one. +Yeah. +Craig on the other. +Yeah. +Me on the other one . +But you're too young to go for girls. +We're drinking beer, getting pissed +No I'm not. +out of our nut. +But you don't even know Craig properly so you're not coming man. +I do. +You fucking don't! +Piss off! +Bollocks! +Your Mum. +Your Dad. +Like you want a new head. +Ah! +You've your Dad, your auntie Jackie, your Mum's got Aids and you're a paki! +Your Mum's a bun round. +Fuck her and they slap her and she still comes back for more. +Your Mum's a baboon like you've just called mine but she's got big hairy tits. +And your Dad's got hairy ball bags! +At least my Dad ain't got a bald head. +Your Dad's got a bald head with black eyes mate! +Your Dad's Popeye. +No he ain't. +Yes he is. +No he ain't. +Bollocks! +He is. +Right. +I don't wanna cuss you I'll end up getting you vexed and you'll go home crying to your Mum. +But if you want a cussing match later on. +Yeah. +I'll give you one. +I'll give you a cussing match. +Right, now coming back to the girls. +Right that Vicki, d'ya think she's nice? +Yeah. +You'd get off with her wouldn't ya? +Yeah. +I wouldn't. +Mucking about. +I wouldn't because she'd slap me, but +You like all the slapping business don't ya? +Yeah. +How about Fay? +Do you fancy her? +Don't know her. +Yeah, man, you know the one with blonde hair, she's really nice? +Oh yeah. +You'd go with her wouldn't ya? +Yeah. +She's got a bit of smelly breath though int she? +Nah. +You just said that she has though. +Yeah, yeah. +Got hairy breathe int she? +Yeah. +How can she have hairy breathe ? +Oi Rob. +You know you wanted to go with er thingie, what's her name? +Cora. +Yeah. +D'ya still wanna go with her cos she told me that she wants to go with ya? +Why? +Yeah man, you gonna go with her? +Probably, yeah. +What you gonna do to her? +Just slap her salami or +Yeah. +Slap her salami. +D'ya know what slapping salami is? +Nah. +It means fucking her. +Are you gonna fuck her? +Yeah. +Why? +Are you gonna fuck her? +Yeah. +I don't think so somehow. +Nah. +It's against the, I wouldn't do it any, I'm too young to fuck ain't I? +You're damn right. +Craig you know Robert? +Yeah. +He said +you know on first day when I was here +Yeah. +when it was slippery +You were a fucking wanker weren't ya? +No. +When I was down +You was bollocks weren't ya? +Nah. +First time, but I kept when I kept going I kept slipping. +Yes. +No, you're a wanker on this int ya? +Bollocks! +Your Mum. +Your Dad. +Your aunty Jackie bollocks to this! +And your Dad's a paki! +You said that +Arseholes! +one. +Don't fucking ! +Ah ah! +Your Mum's a , and they fuck her and they slap her and she comes back for more. +Yeah, your mum keeps changing her lipstick, makes my cock look like a rainbow. +His Mum's got fucking kick start on her vibrator . +She normally does it with washing machines. +Your Mum kick starts her fucking hoover! +Your mum fetches that . +What? +That's old bollocks! +You're not involved in this. +I am. +Come on, keep cussing me. +Keep cussing me. +Oh bloody cuss him! +Mucking around. +Right. +No it ain't mucking around. +I'm serious with him. +You know your Mum +Well I'm not. +you know your Mum, she's got a kick start on her video recorder. +You know your Mum, she has to keep riding her bike to make fucking laundry drip dry. +my cousin. +Nah. +Don't even know you +I say, I make you, you know I'm mucking about +Have you seen Fay? +don't ya? +Yeah. +Yeah. +And you know where the sex, sex you need to go to the , yeah? +It's only mucking around. +Alright. +Alright. +Alright. +Just give me one of them. +No I'm having this. +Ha ha! +Er +Yeah you know your Mum? +She's got a tattoo on her fanny int she? +Nah. +She has. +She has . +Your Mum's got a big fucking tattoo of a snake on her fanny. +Nah. +She has! +She showed me last night when I was fucking her salami! +And you see that truck what just went by +Yeah. +your mum's got her fanny stuck up the exhaust of it. +Beat that one mother-fucker! +Don't be funny. +Your Mum's got a kick-start on an electric wheelchair. +Your Mum kick-start her . +Your Mum's got a kick-start on your Dad's cock so he goes rub it up babe! aargh! aargh! aargh! aargh! aargh! aargh! +Your Dad's cock smells. +My Dad's cock smells? +Yeah. +It smells a lot cleaner that what your Dad's cock does. +Your Dad's got cheese under it ! +My your Mum's had more pricks than a secondhand dart board. +Your Mum kick-starts the hoover. +Time over. +Nah. +You know your Mum? +Yeah. +She's got a sign on her arse saying no entry. +And she's got a sign +Your Mum's +No. +Your Mum +Yes it is. +yeah, your Mum's got a sign on her fanny saying, if small you'll get lost. +I like big ones better though. +She's got that on her fanny so I've had your Mum so many +Oh shut up! +times, I forget the first time I had her. +Oi! +Is your Mum pregnant yet? +No. +Well tell her to give me my fucking money back then! +Your Mum sucks your Dad cock. +Yeah I know she does. +So what about that? +I suck your Mum's +fanny. +I eat her farts. +Your Mum's teeth are clitorises so I just touch them and she gets +Look that's +You eat my Mum's farts! +Oh God! +My Mum likes baked beans, yeah. +Yeah. +Yeah, tell your Mum, if she ain't pregnant to give me my money back. +But it was only ten P so get down mate. +You know when you was born I was sucking your Mum's fanny and then your head popped into my mouth. +Look, you when you was born? +Yeah. +You fell out your Mum's arse. +How could I be, there ain't no fertility cords holding on to the fanny. +And there ain't no and there ain't no +Yeah, but you know when we , you know when you was coming out your Mum's fanny +Yeah. +Right? +My head got stuck up there so I lifted her up in the hair and started swinging her around in my head. +And the nurses goes Ooh! +Put that lady down. +She will get vibes . +Your Mum. +My Mum? +What about my Mum? +She smells? +She smells of what ? +I don't think so. +Your Dad's got cheese under his cock. +Your Mum fucks a broom. +Your Mum smells like prawns as well. +She fucking smells! +Your Dad smells of your Dad's got crabs and they go in his eyeballs in the,. +They eat your fucking Dad's brains! +Know that? +Here, you see this lorry coming along? +See that big lorry? +That's what I fucked your mum in. +Fucked your mum in the back of that lorry. +Funny! +I can remember that. +Yeah, very funny innit? +See those skates you've got on? +Yeah. +I paid for them. +See your skates? +Yeah. +I bought fucking . +What hundred and twelve pound? +Yeah. +Yeah, I thought so. +Yeah. +Course. +He's so scared! +Bowler turbo with Simms wheels and N N B bearings, I don't think so! +Shall I tell you what? +What's that? +You know your Mum? +You know your Mum? +She stands down Whitechapel with her legs open saying,come on over to my place. +Yeah, yeah, yeah ! +And your Mum stands on top of an ice-cream stan , van saying ten P a lick! +Ten P a lick! +No he never. +Your Mum's like a carrier bag, ten P a lick, twenty P the lot. +Your Mum's a snow-blower, so's your Dad. +And do you know what you are? +Your Mum's a a slapper +Your Mum's +and they fuck her and . +Yeah, funny! +Now I know why sad. +You know this bowl? +That's one of my bollocks, it fell off though. +I kept fucking your Mum so much my bollock fell off. +And I can tell your Mum +But then I got another one sewed it backed on sewed it back on and now I've got two balls full of sperm ready to come up your Mum tonight. +And if she don't get pregnant tell her I want my money back. +And tell her, I've got her knickers at my house if she wants to come round and get them. +And tell your Mum that bondage whip as left marks on me. +You know your Mum? +She's got kick start on her lawn mower. +And then goes wurgh aargh aargh! +Wurgh! +No, we gotta go. +Mum sucks, your Mum sucks a black knob. +A black knob? +Yeah. +Your Mum sucks Chinky knobs. +Your Mum's got a fanny with a split the wrong way. +You know your Mu +Yours sucks her own boobs. +My Mum's boobs are too Mum oh ah ah! +You saying my Mum sucks her own boobs? +Yeah. +Yeah, you know your Mum? +She gets a vibrator and puts in between her boobs. +I suck on your Mum's boobs every night so she can have a baby. +Nah. +I used to suck in my Mum's boobs when I was a baby but not now, I don't think so. +So shut up! +Bye! +Sucks her cunt! +How can my Mum suck my Dad's cunt? +My Dad ain't got a +Yeah. +He sucks cocks and put it in. +Yeah. +That ain't a cunt though is it? +You know your Dad? +Yeah. +He sticks his dick up another man's arse. +So shut up! +Your Dad is a fucking lesy. +How can my Dad be a lesy? +Your Mum's a lesy. +And your Dad's gay. +So shut up! +That's the end. +That's the end. +Right. +Bye. +suck King Kong for a packet of Chewits. +Your Mum sucks your Dad every night so she can have another baby. +Ah! +Your Mum's a , and I fuck her and I slap her and I and she still comes back for more. +I really think so, your Mum's . +Your Mum's got a face . +Your Mum sucks your Dad's knob every night, and then fuck her. +And no Jay, no. +What? +you know +Your Mum's fanny smells of fish. +Well my, right Mum's +Your Dad's cunt smells of you. +Ah ah! +Your Mum's King Kong. +Oh no! +Then . +Your Dad's Jack the Ripper. +Ah ah ah ah! +Your Dad's a stupid bastard and he sucks your Mum every night +Ah ah! +Your Mum's a slut. +Ah! +Your Mum's a slut. +Your Mum's a prostitute. +Ah, your Mum's a prostitute. +Your Mum's a snail. +Ah! +Your Mum's a snail! + +Hello. +Learning difficulties are often associated with behavioural or emotional problems, but how are they linked and why? +Today on Ideas on Action, Polytechnic lecturers Bob Brooks and Rod Smart will help us answer those questions. +I visited Bob Brooks at home, to ask why learning difficulties can create emotional problems. +You have to look at the way in which children learn, and the principle vehicle through which children learn is associated with visual symbols, and later with the written word. +Now if children are unable to interpret the visual symbols and the written word, in order to make sense of them, there's bound to be some reaction which will show itself in a sort of behavioural response which appears to be different from the responses we would receive from children who are able to interpret these words and symbols. +Could you give me an example? +Let's suppose you show a child a picture of a cow, and you indicate to the child that that animal is known as a cow. +Now if the child cannot interpret and relate the symbols to the animal, then he's left wondering what the symbols mean, he can't relate the symbols to understanding that a cow is spelt verbally as C O W, and he's left quite mystified, and he doesn't know what we're talking about. +In turn, we press our point and say, ‘But it's a cow, and this is a very simple word, and you ought to be able to understand it.’ +So we begin to put pressure on the child, and the child reacts because he can't appreciate what we're trying to get across to him, and so we get a sort of stalemate situation, where the teacher, be it a professional teacher or a parent, is pressurizing the child to understand something which appears quite simplistic, and the child is responding quite deadly, because he cannot focus, he cannot conceptualize, what is to us a very simple concept. +How would this manifest itself in behavioural terms? +Well when we say anything to a child, we look for a response. +When we offer a child a symbol, we expect a response. +Now if the child doesn't understand the symbol, their behaviour can react in one of two directions. +One it can go towards the withdrawal end of the spectrum, so that the child shuts up, withdraws, isolates himself and puts the lid on. +Or at the other end, we get a reaction which is entirely aggressive, because the child is trying to grapple with something he doesn't understand, he doesn't get a sense of caring feeling from the person trying to teach him, so he reacts aggressively. +And of course you can get the whole admixture in between total withdrawal and total aggression. +How do teachers learn to distinguish between behaviour problems associated with learning difficulties and behaviour problems linked to a different set of disorders? +Well, teachers can use school facilities to eliminate the possibility that a child has sight or hearing defects, or other physical or mental problems. +Then, says Bob Brooks, teachers must observe the quality of the child's classroom response. +The teacher in the first school classroom particularly has got to look out, they've got to be aware, does the child give any overt sign of recognition? +If I can give you an example. +We're all as teachers and parents familiar with a child gaining some new piece of information and all of a sudden their face lights up, their eyes become bright and they say, ‘Ah! +I see.’ +And we know they've learnt something, they've understood it and they've got it for life. +Now when that sort of‘I see’ response is missing from the child, then I think we've got to think in terms of ‘Is this child able to understand the verbal and visual symbols we're offering?’ +Sorting learning difficulties from behaviour problems can seem difficult for teachers and parents, but education specialist Rod Smart says the two may really be inseparable. +I've worked with children in various settings, mainly in secondary school, and in recent years I've worked with students, so when I try to make that sort of categorization I find it very difficult. +It's the classic chicken and the egg problem, that if you try and identify something starting one area, and using that as a sort of causal factor for another area of behaviour, I'm not sure whether, in the majority of cases, you can satisfactorily identify one as being the cause and the other being the result of that causal factor. +And in many ways I don't think it's important, and I, I think that in the majority of our children with those kinds of difficulties you find the two in association, and you can't work on one without working on the other. +I mean both in the experience of, that I've had and research that I've looked at, there seems to be in terms of positive results, kind of strategy that are being used are strategies that, that both improve learning performance and improve emotional conditions for the child. +So I, I would be very reticent to suggest any programme that is specifically in one direction or the other. +When you look at any remedial teacher, whatever their inclinations might be, when you actually observe work it's quite clear they're, they're always working on both an emotional level and on a learning level. +Distinguishing between behaviour problems and learning difficulties is finally a matter of emphasis. +Rod Smart. +I think you might find a situation quite clearly where you would find a child behaving in such a way in the classroom that it was being disruptive to himself, disruptive to teachers, disruptive to, to his classmates, and therefore the, the first move must be in a direction of rearranging that behaviour so that there could develop a situation in which you might do something about the learning difficulty. +On the other side of the coin you might find a child who is experiencing such difficulties in his learning that the first line of attack must be in, in terms of perhaps producing just an improvement of his base level of learning, so that the next step can be taken. +So I think it, it is a question of emphasis. +But I think before very long you are in fact working in both directions. +To make the task of parents and teachers even harder, adolescents can aggravate the problem of detecting and solving behaviour problems associated with learning difficulties. +Rod Smart reports. +Identification of what might be called a transient problem, compared with, with a deep-seated long-term problem, is perhaps not always apparent. +Undoubtedly adolescence is the one which raises numerous transient problems in terms of puberty particularly, in terms of physical change, where adolescents become very worried about their, their body image, about the changes that are happening to them physically. +And in the majority of those cases, that is a transient problem, and teacher assistance needs to be at a level of, of general support to get them over that period. +The longer term help is something that I don't think teachers can do on their own, I don't think even somebody like a, a specialist school counsellor can do on their own, which is the time at which the availability of agency help needs to be, become apparent. +And I think, I mean the kind of situations I would think of as in that would be, just to take it from my own experience, of children who become quite experienced. +Very often, puberty for example, that depression will become more enhanced, so it might present itself as a problem that seems to be rising out of puberty, but as time goes on and through school help that doesn't seem to be resolving that problem, I think that's the point at which the specialist within the school, the teacher within the school, must think about, ‘This doesn't seem to be resolving itself. +I need to look elsewhere,’ and the referral processes that go on would be through the G P or, or through the school psychological services where longer term help might be necessary. +And, just quickly, I can think of two or three examples of children who in fact became very suicidal through their depression. +And they certainly needed more help than the school could give. +But it's very difficult for parents in those situations perhaps to accept the, the deep-seated nature of their children's problems, especially if it's, it's somewhere connected with the kind of defective relationships they're having within their own homes. +Parents and teachers can always turn for help with learning and behaviour problems to their school psychologist, or to the East Sussex Dyslexia Association. +But Bob Brooks has another suggestion for parents. +I think the only response you can make to any child who's facing a challenge is that you care, that you will be patient, that you will go on and on and on. +So often teachers and parents set limits. +If nothing happens by such and such a time, then we shall have to do something else. +They very often don't know what the something else is going to be, but we tend to put time limits on what children should do and when they should do it. +With any disturbed child, we have to be patient and we have to learn to wait. +And I think there's one important strategy which many teachers are apprehensive of using. +This is what I call the strategy of non-decision, the decision that we will do nothing, that we won't harass the child, that we will give the child time to relax and move at his own pace, rather than determining the pace that we feel the child ought to be following. +And based on his own experience, Rod Smart thinks that parent-teacher cooperation plays a vital part in solving behaviour problems. +I worked for three years as a school counsellor in South Brompton, and the majority of the children who came my way were children who had some degree of behavioural difficulty or emotional disturbance. +And although my initial work was with the individual child, I found that in a large number of cases, the parental interest was of a high order and, and the children's willingness to involve parents in their behavioural difficulties was also of a high order, so I found myself working not just within the school, not just with the child, but in a parent-child situation. +And there it didn't materialize as much as an advice service as a way of working together to solve the child's problems. +I'd rather take that approach, and what I would suggest is that, wherever possible, teachers should think about involving parents in the kinds of difficulties that the child is having in school, and thereby becomes a team effort rather than parents working one direction and perhaps teachers working in another. +What else can parents do? +Well, Bob Brooks says that patient support is one of the best helps that parents can offer to children with learning difficulties. +In this society of ours, many children are led to confusion by the complexity of the life in which they're placed. +And I think for the dyslexic child, for the disturbed child generally, we need to offer an atmosphere which is calm. +I think the thing that I would say to parents: ‘You may be anxious, you may be concerned. +Try not to convey your anxiety and concern to the children. +If you can care for them, show them that you love them. +Very often these things will at least ease, if not heal.’ +Many thanks to Bob Brooks and Rod Smart. +Next week on Ideas in Action, we'll start Christmas early, with a new two-part series on Yuletide tales. +Until then, good-bye. +Hello. +This is the first of a series of programmes in which we're going to look at the computer and its impact on our lives. +In this programme I'm going to sketch in a bit of the background, by way of introduction, and in later weeks, various colleagues of mine, concerned with all aspects of the computing world, will be helping me build up the over-all picture. +Details of individual programmes are given as usual in the Radio Times. +I suppose that we each of us are born with our own primitive computers: two hands and ten fingers. +Which of us do not find it convenient on occasions to count on our fingers? +Walk into a room where there's a group of people, and ask, which want tea, and which want coffee. +The natural and, and instinctive way of arriving at the totals, is to use the fingers to count. +On one hand for tea, and on the other hand for coffee. +The difficulty arises, of course, when you run out of fingers, or try to take milk and sugar into account. +This is a primitive but thoroughly respectable bit of computing. +Of course when we think and talk about computers, we generally have in mind something much more formal and more scientific than our own hands. +A box with knobs and buttons to press, which does a lot of calculations rather quickly. +But at a fundamental level there's really little difference between you and I struggling to count on our fingers, and the most modern and sophisticated piece of computing wizardry. +In both cases there's a facility for storing data, for performing operations according to some sort of program, and for telling the operator the results. +The difference lies in the capacity for providing or performing all these functions. +So if computers are really that ordinary and familiar, what's so special about them? +Well I think it's really three things. +First of all they have enormous and very efficient and reliable memories for retaining simple bits of information. +And since complicated situations or statements can very easily be broken down into a set of simple statements, this in effect means that computers can store complex pieces of information too. +Secondly, computers can do sums and manipulations with this information very rapidly. +Here again, only very simple operations are possible. +But since more complicated instructions can always be broken down into a collection of simple steps, this doesn't matter either. +Millions of bits of information can be processed at a rate of millions of steps per second. +In a recent B B C 2 programme on computing, the presenter commented on the huge capacity of computers such as those used by the Meteorological Office to predict the weather. +The one used in London can handle fifty million pieces of information in one second, and it still takes minutes to produce a forecast for a few days ahead. +As a comparison, he pointed out that if the entire population of China were set the same task, it would take them more than four hours to complete it. +Of course, this is not even really a realistic option, because you'd still have the impossible communication problem of getting the information out to the individuals involved in the first place, and then getting the answers back again and coordinating them to make some sort of over-all sense. +The third feature of the modern computer is that it is now much more accessible to the layman. +Whereas historically it was expensive, rare, and available only to the privileged few, mainly mathematicians and scientists, now anyone can own and use one. +Look at any newspaper or magazine, and you'll see advertisements for personal computers. +There are now over a hundred makes of micro-computer for sale in the United Kingdom, and several thriving magazines entirely devoted to these devices. +What cost hundreds of thousands of pounds in the nineteen-fifties, and occupied a large building, now only costs a hundred or two, and is not much larger than a typewriter. +Even the methods of getting information in and out of a computer have changed beyond recognition. +The reels of punch-paper tape and the boxes of cards are often replaced by ordinary cassette tapes. +The language that the layman has to learn is not the original machine code or even the more modern FORTRAN or PASCAL, which is used by scientists, but is generally BASIC, which, as its name denotes, is a very straightforward set of instructions in simple English. +When you want the computer to list what instructions it has received, you type LIST on the keyboard. +And the instructions are displayed on a monitor, rather like on a television set. +Let's have a look more closely at some of the changes that have taken place in the past few decades. +When talking about computers, we use the word ‘hardware’ to describe the actual machine and its accessories, and ‘software’to describe the actual programs that are written and devised to operate using the hardware. +When computers, as we understand them in a modern sense, first came into use in the early nineteen-fifties, they were huge, expensive and unreliable. +The basic circuits used electronic valves, and the heat generated was itself a great problem. +The electrical power consumed and the heat that had to be dissipated by elaborate cooling systems made them expensive and inconvenient to run. +Parts were always going wrong, and half the time computers were out of action as technicians laboriously tried to find and remedy faults. +Quite apart from all this, computers took up an awful lot of space. +They needed their own buildings. +All computers operate on a very simple and fundamental principle. +Basically they can add or subtract, and anything more complicated than this has to be achieved by breaking down the more elaborate procedures down to a sometimes large number of successive steps. +For example multiplication can be reduced to an appropriate number of additions, and so on. +In principle this may appear to be a very cumbersome activity, but in practice it's not. +Because you can use a particular sort of algebra, based on the so-called binary system, which greatly shortens and simplifies problems, which might at first sight seem terribly long and complicated. +The early computer programmer and user had to learn to speak the language of the computer, machine code, and had to learn how to put these simple instructions, often in very tedious forms, into the computer. +The language had to be learnt and used with great accuracy, because there was very little tolerance for error. +If a mistake was made, the program didn't work. +And probably very little information was fed back to the operator as to the cause of the error. +I went on a computer training course in the mid-nineteen-fifties. +After a week in the classroom, those of us who were regarded as having mastered the principles were allowed to run a very simple and short program on the London University computer, provided it was passed by one of our instructors. +So what has happened in the three decades that have passed? +Electronic valves gave way to transistors, and these have been replaced by the silicon chip, literally a thin slice of silicon, on which miniature electrical circuits can be created. +Whole circuits are reduced to small slivers of material, measuring a few millimetres across, and the number of components and whole circuits that can be put on each chip is increasing each year. +In the early nineteen-sixties, each chip consisted of about ten electrical components, and was equivalent to one logic circuit. +By nineteen-seventy, a thousand components were being squeezed onto a single chip. +In nineteen-seventy-five, a hundred thousand. +And now it's possible to put the equivalent of a million components on one single chip. +And progress hasn't stopped even yet. +It's estimated that by nineteen-ninety, there will be something like a hundred million components on a single chip. +And the chip will still only be the size of a centimetre or two. +And all this has happened with costs going down rather than up. +The reason for this is quite straightforward. +As techniques improve, the number of components that can be put onto each prototype chip increases. +The first chip can represent hundreds of thousands, if not millions of pounds, of investment and effort. +But having got one working chip, the next thousand or even million, can be reproduced very cheaply indeed. +Not only have the basic building blocks of the computer become smaller and cheaper, and hence more readily available to a greater number of people, the language of the computer has become much more accessible to the lay person. +First of all, new languages were developed for the scientist and engineer who did not want to learn basic code. +FORTRAN, PASCAL, ALGOL are examples that I've already mentioned, and will be familiar to science students. +These were used by the computer operator to write programs for his or her particular purpose. +As a preliminary, the computer memory was fed with a large set of instructions for translating the program into machine code. +A bit like getting the computer to swallow a dictionary and a book of grammar, before you started speaking to it. +As more and more uses were found for computers in business and commerce, as well as in science and engineering, even easier languages were developed for lay use. +And as I've mentioned already, the most common now used is the BASIC language, which sound like a rather halting English. +And it won't be long before even more colloquial and everyday languages will be the norm rather than the exception. +The effort, and to a great extent, the cost, has moved from producing hardware to developing software. +Programs for use by accountants, shopkeepers, doctors and even housewives. +In nineteen-fifty-five, about eighty percent of the capital cost of a computer lay in its hardware, with the other twenty percent being invested in software programs to perform particular tasks. +Now the reverse is true. +A company might spend ten thousand pounds on a computer, but they would then spend sixty thousand pounds on the associated software to make it work. +At the moment computers are increasing in speed by an average factor of ten per annum, and the number of computers in use in the Western world is increasing by about twenty-five percent per year. +If we assume that the number of professional programmers, these are people who are competent to use and develop software, is roughly proportional to the number of commercial computers in operation, this means that if the trend continues, in ten years time, there will be a need for roughly a hundred times as many computer programmers than we've got as present. +I'm not quite sure how many we've got in Britain. +But if we take a guess that there are thirty thousand, this means that in nineteen-ninety, three million people, or something like a tenth of the entire working population, will be engaged in writing materials for computers. +Of course this calculation has to be taken with a pinch of salt. +There will only be that number of computers if the range of applications and uses increases a hundredfold too. +But even if my estimate is significantly wrong, computing remains a growth area, and one in which, notwithstanding economic recessions, the outlook looks bright. +Don't put your daughter on the stage, Mrs Worthington, send her to be trained as a computer programmer. +Well, that's all that we have time for today. +In the next few weeks, I shall be looking at all aspects of the computer world. +Until next week, good-bye. +Hello. +Computers are used increasingly for commercial purposes. +Not just by large companies, but also by quite small organizations. +Delia Venables runs the Micro-computer Advisory Service based in Lewes. +Delia, have we reached a stage where not just big organizations but also quite small firms ought to each have their own computer? +Well not the very small firm yet, I would say. +If it only takes you an hour or two a week to run your administration, then you don't yet need a computer. +But probably at the stage where somebody is spending two or three hours a day erm processing invoices, trying to get cash in, erm looking at the stock control, then that's the point where they could very well consider a small computer now. +And what sort of price are we talking about when people say they ought to have a computer? +Hundreds of thousands, or, or much less these days? +Well you've probably seen in erm the newspapers you can now buy small computers for one hundred or two hundred pounds, but they're not really what we're talking about, because the very smallest computers of this sort, like the Sinclair and the B B C computer, don't have any sort of storage for the data. +Or, at most, they allow you to plug in your own cassette tape-recorder, but that's a very slow and not very erm professional way of looking after for example your customer records. +So in order to have something that enables you to keep records of two or three hundred customers, and then of course to be able to print out some sort of lists or invoices at the end of it, you would need to pay, probably even now, a couple of thousand pounds, and very often of course more. +So your rule of thumb, for starting, is that if somebody's spending more than two or three hours a day, perhaps, on accounts or stock-taking or whatever, then it might be worth checking out the possibility of using a computer. +Yes indeed. +Because once you've got a computer running for your main application then you can always find other things to do with it which may help you to improve your business. +What you need are different programs. +And you can buy the programs as off-the-shelf, packaged programs for relatively little money, perhaps a hundred or two hundred pounds a packaged program, so you might pay perhaps two or three hundred pounds for a stock control program, two or three hundred pounds for an invoicing or sales ledger program. +This obviously adds on to the cost of your basic computer but if you are a small business it isn't an enormous amount. +The sort of computer we're talking about would have two floppy disc units. +And so, depending on what you want to do on nine o'clock on Monday morning, you would take out the required floppy disc, put it in your computer, take out your data disc, which you would also have kept, put that in the second floppy disc unit, and you'd be ready to run that particular application. +And how much experience is, do operators need to work one of these things? +An ordinary little firm that has operated perfectly cheerfully with a clerk and a few assistants over the years, is it actually a practical proposition to install the computer and perhaps train one or two of the workers to use it? +Very much a practical proposition, but I think you do have to be fairly keen and interested. +erm What you can't do is take somebody who really the very idea of computers, and turn them into a successful computer operator, because they will make mistakes, and having made mistakes they will be terrified and won't want to do it again. +But somebody that likes experimenting and that, is aware of all the possibilities that are opening with computers, will in fact learn very quickly. +erm Anybody that's well-organized, good at clerical operations, preferably can type a little bit even though, if only perhaps with a few fingers, erm would make a perfectly computer operator for a small firm. +And we've talked about the packages and the software. +You said they each cost a few hundred pounds. +Have you any idea, and as an estimate perhaps, what the total amount of a typical collection of software packages would be, compared with the actual cost of the computer? +Well, if you're talking about the smallest sort of business, and you've spent maybe two thousand pounds on your actual computer, complete with a printer and the floppy discs I've been talking about, then you might expect to spend another five hundred to a thousand pounds on a basic set of software. +If you buy slightly larger computers with more storage erm and more facilities, then you will tend to pay more for the software. +For example if you spent four thousand pounds on the hardware, then you could well spend fifteen hundred or two thousand pounds on the software. +And so on. +Let's have a look at some of the applications. +You mentioned accounts. +What are the advantages of actually using a computer to keep accounts as opposed to a gentleman sitting on a tall stool with a quill pen? +Well I think gentlemen on tall stools with quill pens are becoming increasingly hard to find, and to pay a living wage to. +erm And a lot of the time this gentleman would have been sorting through the data, finding out who owed how much money, writing them polite letters, and this is the sort of thing you can do very quickly with a computer. +You still have to put the data in once, you have to enter the invoice, but once it's entered, it will be there to be accessed in all sorts of different ways, and at the end of the month, a business would very often want to send out statements. +Well it might just take a couple of hours to print out a complete set of statements for two hundred customers. +And it can be done on the morning after the end of the previous month, whereas manually our gentleman on the tall stool might have spent at least a week preparing it, and getting them out, and that's a week that you haven't got your money in. +What about erm order processing and so on? +Does that have an advantage to put on computer? +Well, this is a slightly more complicated application, where you're not just selling for example straight from stock, but you take orders from customers, and then you would have to manufacture, perhaps to buy in, to assemble, some sort of goods for sending out. +And so the systems become a little more complicated in that you have to keep records of your customers, of your orders, of your stock, and to some extent, of how your own production, or your assembly, is getting along. +I think for a very small company this perhaps might be more complicated in computing terms than would be worthwhile, but as soon as you're getting to the point of many orders in a week, then it can be exceedingly useful to be able to ask the computer to tell you for example what are all the outstanding orders, what are all the overdue orders, what is the stock position bearing in mind that some stock is committed for certain orders, what orders have we got with suppliers to us which are still outstanding, and questions of this sort, can make your business much more efficient. +And we talked a little bit earlier about word-processing. +Presumably the great advantage of word-processing, if, if you have the sort of decent printer that you mentioned, is that you could send what appear to be rather personal letters to a whole lot of people rather rapidly erm putting in, for example, at a very elementary level, their individual name, but also coupling together relevant paragraphs erm which would be appropriate to them. +Yes. +This is the sort of thing Reader's Digest have done for years, of course, on great enormous computers. +They would have lists of all the people that had bought books from them or might have bought books from them in the past, categorized by where they live, the age of the person, the sex, the special interests, the past purchases, and then they would send out special books erm special letters, if they had a new doggie book coming out they might select all the ladies over fifty-five who had bought doggie books in the past. +What Reader's Digest with its enormous great computers have been doing for at least ten years, now people with small computers and a word-processing package can do for themselves, and certainly they would be selecting from their customer lists particular people to send particular advertising to and special letters. +And we've talked mainly about small companies, small firms of one kind and another. +Presumably all this applies equally well to, to shops because I suppose you could link up the cash registers to some sort of stock control, so that you could almost keep a running total of what you, you have in stock as you erm punch the appropriate numbers up on the, on the till? +Yes, this is what big shops, particularly in America, have now been doing for a few years, in that the till that takes your order as it were is also a computer terminal on line to large computers somewhere else, and every time your tin of baked bins is checked out by the girl on the till, it is adjusting the stocks on its large computer and saying, ‘Hey, we're going to run out of baked beans at approximately ten o'clock tomorrow morning. +We must put in an order tonight.’ +That sort of application hasn't yet reached the small shops where really the proprietor of the shop himself is only too well aware of when the baked beans is running out. +But it is coming, and certainly some of the medium-sized shops, perhaps with a couple of two or three outlets but under the same management, where it's not quite so easy to see when you're running out of baked beans, are already beginning to take advantage of some of these retailing computers. +Delia, you yourself run an advisory service. +What sort of general advice would you offer people who wanted to check out the possibility of using a computer in their own operation? +Well you have to have some idea of what you want to do with it. +And that really means which operations, in your own business, are taking quite a lot of time, and therefore costing you money. +And the sort of operations of course that are capable of being put on a computer. +So that first of all we would have to look at how much time people spend preparing invoices, sending out statements, producing age debtors lists and that sort of thing. +Quite often people don't need a computer, what they need is a slightly different manual system, and I tell them that quite often, they're very, very pleased, they think they've saved themselves two or three thousand pounds at least. +But if you do find an area where you could save a key person several hours a day, then that is real money saved where he could be using his special expertise in his business to get more business, and then one would have to look more closely at erm the particular application, particular jobs that he's doing and that could be put on the computer. +This might be things we've talked about, stock control, sales ledger and so forth. +Having decided on that general application, then it's a question of shopping around amongst all the different computers that are on the market, and there are hundreds, to find the ones where the ready-made programs most nearly match the needs of that particular business. +It really isn't these days just the hardware, the, the box of electronic magic tricks that matter. +It is the programs that have been written, and these packaged programs have got to be fairly close to your business in order not to be very frustrating and more bother than they are worth. +The software is the key to finding the right computer these days. +And do you normally buy the software from the same person that sells you the computer? +Well that's extremely advisable, because if you have a problem in the middle of your morning's run of sending out invoices, you may not know whether it's a software problem in the programs, or a hardware, hardware problem in the actual electronics. +It's much better to be able to have one telephone number of somebody to ring up and say, ‘Hey, the screen's gone blank and I don't know what to do next,’ and have somebody, initially over the telephone, giving you advice, helping you to get round the problem, or, if necessary, sending round a service engineer quite smartly. +But what you don't want is a series of conversations with two or three different people all of whom really want you to go away and are just trying to pass the buck to someone else. +And it's quite possible to arrange for demonstrations of suitable equipment to be given to you, is it? +Oh yes. +Any company that's trying to sell computers is only too pleased to give demonstrations, and either you would go to their showroom, where they've got it all set up, erm or they would bring the, the equipment in to you. +In fact there's advantages both ways round. +If you go to their showroom, you can get a feel for how they, the supplier, run their business and whether they're efficient and whether they've got erm good people in their organization. +Of course if they come to you then you get a feel of how the equipment is going to feel in your office, and that can be useful too. +And what about maintenance? +Is that ever a problem? +Yes, it can be a problem. +You certainly don't want your computer grinding to a halt in the middle of your important statement run. +And you have to have a maintenance contract. +If you're a serious user you simply can't do without it, and this can be expensive. +It's likely to be several hundred pounds a year even for the cheapest computers, at least ten percent of the cost of the computer a year, and it starts straight away. +I don't really understand how computer suppliers seem to get away with this, because with most things you have a year's guarantee, and then you start your maintenance contract. +But it's almost universal, with small computers, that you start your maintenance contract within days, or weeks, at most, of getting it installed. +And so you can really consider that your first year's cost is not just the cost of the computer but it's also this extra few hundred pounds for your maintenance contract. +And lastly, Delia, do you see the movement towards more and more computerization continuing in the future? +Yes, but I think there's no need to buy computers just to be clever or to be well ahead of your neighbours or your other business friends. +Computers can also get in the way, and if they're not running properly they can be frustrating. +So I think caution is erm very important in buying a computer, and if you wait a couple of months erm you won't have done any harm, because something newer and more beautiful is always on the way. +So don't rush at it. +Well thank you very much, Delia. +That's all that we have time for today. +Next week, Erin Sloman will be back again, talking about ways of teaching people computing. +Partly in the questioner's mind, erm could be answered by reference to language problems, I mean, a technical or professional qualifications may be equivalent, and may be awfully good, but if one expert and qualified person can't talk the language of the country he wants to work in, that's going to be a barrier on its own, and I reckon that is often the bigger barrier between the easy movement of qualified people from one of our countries to another, than the lack of qualifications, or disagreement about qualifications themselves. +erm I think that must often be the case. +The next question comes from Mr Len Reed, of The Crescent, Morescombe, who asks: ‘Do the British take sport less seriously than other European countries, and is the idea of the amateur sportsman, or artist, for that matter, essentially English?’ +Geoffrey. +Well thank you, I, I'll leave to Norbert the handling of the artist's side of this, but as to the amateur sportsman, I know this is a very familiar and accepted notion among us, that the British don't take sport seriously enough, but I wonder if it's not one of the many self-delusions that we suffer from. +erm After all, sport, sport in every country was amateur until some time about the middle of this century. +If you look at the people who went in for the Olympic Games, right up to the Second World War, erm you would call them amateurs. +I suppose that in a few countries like Nazi Germany in nineteen-thirty-six the erm the nation's amateur champions were given a special backing because of the force of nationalism erm national focus of attention on them at that date, but it, it still was, they were amateurs still meeting on equal ground. +It's only since the Second World War I think that a few nations, especially the, the, the highly socialist ones with a strong erm directed policy of sports, in sports and education, have begun to put an amount of effort into sports training which the less socialistic and less state concentrated countries like our own have found a, a bit offensive. +Now, whose fault is that but our own? +It's, I, recur here to something I said in the broadcast I did earlier in this series, that a British national characteristic which distinguishes us very much from every Continental country, is our erm phobia about committing money and means to the state to spend for our common good. +Now the complaint about sports is simply that other countries put more central and local government money into sport and into facilities, into training, into stadia and so on that we do. +We could do exactly the same with sport, like we could do it with art and theatre and music and, and a hell of a lot of other things, but it's unfortunately a part of our national political tradition that a large number of us feel some reluctance about doing this. +Do other countries have the same distinction between amateur and professional that we do? +Yes I think so. +And, and, and lets remember that the first big shock that British sportsmen got, the first shaking of the earth which intimated that we weren't so hot at these things as we used to be was in professional sport, it was in football, it was when the Hungarians beat England in nineteen-fifty-six, and the Hungarian army officer Elista Pushkas became erm a world figure because he'd led the team that had humbled British football might. +Well, they were professionals as far as I know, it wasn't a matter there of professionals beating amateurs. erm As for the distinction between the amateur and the professional, no, I think, I think that we've got stuck with this amateur business, partly because it's related to the idea of the English gentleman, which is only slowly fading. +erm I don't think he exists as much as he used Norbert wants something. +Well I, I absolutely agree with that. +I, I think in fact there's still an assumption that the real sportsman, the real artist, the real human being is the amateur of each sort, and not the professional. +There's a kind of shyness about trusting the professional in this country. +erm If you can call somebody an expert, that means you're being rude to him. +erm erm Brian calls us experts at the beginning of the programme erm everyone listening knows we can't all be experts of course on all these things, we're just sort of amateurishly trying to be sensible on these questions. +erm I think the problem about sport and art in this country very often is that the amateur is over-regarded and the professional's under-regarded, and as Geoffrey rightly said, erm underfinanced on a national level. +erm There's a kind of assumption that if something, if somebody does something on a Sunday afternoon, for lack of better, something better to do or because it's raining and golf is therefore, therefore off, that he therefore does it in a truer, sincerer way than a man who might be doing it as his career, for his income, to keep his family alive and so on. +I honestly think that it's time the English got off this notion, which after all has nothing to do with the original meaning of the word ‘amateur’, which means having a passion for something, erm got off this notion that the amateur, the gentleman, as Geoffrey said, is necessarily more truly engaged with the activity than somebody else. +Of course we're very wedded to this notion. +It goes right across into politics and administration, doesn't it? +Yes, to a certain extent. +Certainly we rely on erm unsalaried voluntary justices of the peace. +Very few erm Continental countries would consider entrusting the administration of justice erm to erm people who took an afternoon or a day off work every week or so and went in to sit on the Bench. +But it does seem to be = another example of the way in which we look to the amateur, to somebody who depends, for example, on the, very often on the legal briefing of the Clerk of the Court, erm to counterbalance that with his common sense. +We do put a very high premium on common sense, I think, and that certainly is a national characteristic. +mhm It just occurred to me that our Civil Service, in its higher reaches, is also notoriously recruited very largely from the ranks of people who studied Latin and Greek at universities. +That is still to some extent, erm though less true, I daresay, than it once was, but the mystique, I think, survives, does it not, Anne will tell us, in Whitehall, that these people bring erm who, who are essentially amateurs in matters of political science, sociology, international relations and diplomacy, bring a gentleman amateur's omnicompetent wisdom. +Certainly there's a very strong feeling that common sense is not something erm that can be trained by a training in political science and that it's valuable. +I think we have to be a little bit careful about this because, of course, erm the feeling is not that once they've been in the job for a little while that they are still amateurs, it's merely that we don't require them to know a great deal about what they're going to do before they start. +But I think most people would recognize the very considerable professionalism that they acquire on the job. +Where we have a different point of view is the point of view that says that a general education which will train the mind erm and expand capacity for judgement and so on, erm is perhaps more important than an exact knowledge of erm some particular political science theory. +mhm What sort of a general education is A level in this country, do you think? +It's obviously more specialized than some of the education erm at comparable level in other countries, both in France and in Germany erm they take erm as their eighteen-plus exam erm an exam which covers a rather wider field, erm so in that sense, oddly, we specialize early, which is an interesting comparison. +Well we do seem to be still wedded to some form of British amateurism, I think, the panel would agree with me there. +Mrs Connie Bunker of Hassex Road,Herspear Point wants to know, ‘Are the health and social service provisions in different countries similar to those in Britain, and is there a move towards uniformity between the countries in the E E C?’ +Gosh. +I think there's a great deal of disparity between the countries of Western Europe erm in the way in which health and social security provisions are organized and erm provided. +erm There seems on the whole to be general agreement throughout Western Europe about the kinds of things that ought to be covered by health and social security system _ industrial accidents, sickness, provision for old age and so on— and all the countries of the European Community, for example , have some kind of system that provide these sorts of benefits. +And in all Western European countries the state is increasingly involved in trying to ensure that the system works, proper standards are met, that facilities are reasonably equally spread over the country and so on. +But it is very difficult to make comparisons. +We can for example say that in West Germany erm a worker who's paid contributions for forty-five years gets an old-age pension that amounts to about seventy-five percent of what he was taking home in take-home pay before he retired, and obviously this looks a much better deal than the British old age pensioner gets. +But we need to know a lot more about for example his housing costs, his rent and rate rebates that he may be entitled to and so on, before we can really say erm that we can make a proper comparison erm and different countries have different priorities. +In France there's long been a high priority on keeping the birth rate up, so there are very high maternity grants and family allowances, especially if you've got three or more children. +But some of the comparisons we can do produce quite interesting facts. +erm The proportion of the total economic activity of the country, the G D P that is spent on social security and health care, is much higher in West Germany and in France than in Britain. +erm On social security and health together it's about ten percentage points higher in West Germany erm and about six percentage points higher in France than in the U K And I must say I do wonder why in West Germany erm you've got half as many again doctors per hundred thousand of the population of the U K and only about two-thirds as many nurses, which does suggest, you know, differences in national approaches to things like health care. +And of course you get differences in organization as well. +erm In some countries they're run through the state and in others through insurance associations or insurance groups, so that you get this kind of difference. +And I can't see any moves towards uniformity, I'm really not aware that there are any pressures in Europe towards a common system. +I, I wonder why the questioner was interested in the uniformity business. +Is it that she, she's, she's, she's wondering what will happen to her family or children if they go abroad, or is she thinking that each country in the Community, perhaps having some special erm excellence of its own, ought to be shedding this example among the others so that we all raise ourselves to a common, higher level? +If that's what she's thinking of, then I guess that we all very much wish it could happen. +That if our health service and social security system has got any special advantages erm left, which it may still have, erm then perhaps erm our friends in the Community could learn a bit from them. +It sounds as if we could learn a great deal from Germany and Holland about, in the health service, erm because their systems by now by all statistical tests of mortality and illness and so on, seem to be doing a better job than ours. +Although in terms of expense they are of course more expensive, and therefore this also erm is something one, one has to consider. +It is a question of priorities and what people, you think it's worth paying for. +And the Germans for example are at the moment very concerned, and indeed the French too, very concerned to try and keep costs down, because they have been erm going too fast. +National food, drink, sport and erm other habits must also be relevant to the understanding of this problem. +I think that's true. +And in so far as it, as the question arises erm of what kind of, of provisions erm are you going to find if you go abroad, erm then I think we can say that within the European Community, erm citizens of one member state are entitled to what the citizens of the member state in which they happen to be staying are entitled to. +erm So that if you erm visit France, for example, erm you will find yourself being reimbursed for the same amount of your medical cost as a French citizen would have had reimbursed to him. +erm In some cases this can cause difficulty and some self-employed people who have erm tried to erm get the necessary documentations to claim this, have found that they're not covered in some countries of the European Community erm because the general national erm insurance schemes there don't erm apply to self-employed people. +So that erm although you're entitled to what a native of that country would get, so long as you're in the European Community, even that can vary. +Thank you. +We talked earlier about amateur British people and we talked about amateur British magistrates and I'm a, an amateur British magistrate, but the question that I'm going to put next was put by a colleague of mine, who has preferred to remain anonymous, and that is, it's proposed to fine motorists on the spot for minor offencmes in this country in the near future, and the question is, ‘Does this system apply in other European countries, and is it a good system?’ +Norbert, you look as if you've got views on this. +Well, I know it applies in some European countries. +erm I can't roll them off and I don't know if it applies in all of them, but it happened to me in Italy that erm I was fined on the spot. +The offence was grievous and innocent, I drove the wrong way round a roundabout, which sounds appalling but there was not a single other car in sight to, in a sense to steer by so to speak, erm but there was one policeman, and he stopped me, and he fined me, and I had to search for my purse, which I had well hidden, this being Italy, erm underneath all the bedding and the tents and the cooking pots, found it in due course, presented him very shakily with these thousand lire or whatever it was he wanted, and, and this is really the point, drove off very shakily too. +A, that I was upset, I don't like being fined, but it's also I don't like being told off by anybody, you know, it's a sort of basic child reaction. +erm And I think this is a serious point. +erm I think in a way to, as many a parent knows, to act instantly, cause some pain, and then let the matter drop, is a very good system in some senses, but is it, is it a good thing to have happening in the middle of traffic? erm I suggest that on the whole something might be gained if this was tried here. +erm We park appallingly carelessly, some of us do it intentionally very often, some of us do it innocently or probably ignorantly, and perhaps to be fined on the spot would be a way of saving an awful lot of paperwork, an awful lot of time, and perhaps reminding people that they shouldn't be doing these things although I'm always slightly worried, this is in a sense another problem, I'm slightly worried by, by the inequity that six pounds or whatever it is will mean a lot to one person and hardly anything at all to another, and you do see some cars mis-parking again and again, and I'm not sure that erm the instant penalty would make much difference there. +erm How does one in any case fine a motorist who isn't standing by his car or sitting in it? erm I would, if the question is shall we try it, if that is implied, I would say it's worth trying in a very moderate way, it may require the police and the police representatives so to speak, the wardens if they're going to be empowered to do this kind of thing, I think it's going to force them to become very, very diplomatic and civilized in the way they handle it, but we of course too will have to learn to respond in a civilized manner. +It isn't only Italy in which it applies. +My husband got fined in Germany erm for crossing a road on foot erm when the green man erm to enable, that said that the pedestrian crossing was clear wasn't showing. +There was a red light up, and he was stopped by a policeman as he reached the opposite pavement and duly asked for the appropriate number of marks. +erm I sometimes feel erm that erm in fact = it would be a good idea when I see people doing things which I regard as immediately dangerous, but I think it might make considerable difficulties for the relationship between the police and the motoring public which erm are already at times very strained, and I'm not sure, for some of the reasons erm that Norbert has suggested, that it's erm necessarily a very erm happy system. +On the other hand I suspect that you as a magistrate have, have views about the amount of time that it takes up erm in your court, dealing with what must seem to you erm fairly erm minor offenses, and I wonder what you feel about it. +Oh well that's really turning it round, isn't it? erm My feeling is that it would work very well provided there was a, a safeguard, and that is that if you wanted to argue you could. +And that you, if you wanted to go through appropriate court procedures and disagree with the official then that was up to you. +In other words you essentially had the choice on the spot of saying, ‘Yes, I certainly did it, and here's my fiver or whatever it is,’ or ‘No I don't agree with you and I would like to go through the proper judicial procedures.’ +Well there is a kind of motoring offence and it's really a parking offence which we're all familiar with, about which there is no doubt whatever, and it's when one is parked on a double yellow line. +Now, that is a bloody nuisance to everybody erm who is trying to go along the street, which is of such a narrowness or difficulty, that it has been marked with double yellow lines in order to, to facilitate the flow of traffic. +And all kinds of reasons are conventionally winked at by our good-natured policemen and traffic wardens. +erm One pretends that one's wife is going into the shop just for ten, you know for just three minutes, or that there is a baker's van delivering stuff at nine, nine o'clock in the morning. +But in, in the United States I've noticed, the laws about the yellow lines are much better observed and the traffic circulates better. +I can see that erm to introduce into this country on-the-spot fining, such as is known in some Continental countries, erm might sour relations in an unfortunate way between the executors of the law and the victims. +What would be more satisfactory would be the introduction of the American towaway system, in which great lorries with grabs and hooks come round, and without any ado whatever, whoosh the car away from where it is illegally and improperly parked. +That's a great satisfaction to everybody, it goes to a car pound, and then you have to go there and pay your sixty dollars or whatever it is to get it out. +There's no souring of relations because there's no argument possible. +erm The penalty is fixed, it's redeeming your car from the pound, and the traffic is enabled to go through the street in the way that the planners of the traffic system had intended. +I, I absolutely agree with Geoffrey on this. +I, I think we perhaps as amateur drivers and amateur policemen and amateur +wardens and whatever, we don't take the double yellow lines half seriously enough, erm and I think parking generally is, is something we're very bad at and I'm an occasional sinner in this respect too, but it, it did strike me the other day, erm paying a fifteen pound fine for parking on a single yellow line on a Sunday afternoon but I hadn't noticed a sign that said I shouldn't, erm paying that fifteen pound fine in other words not having paid the six pound instant fine, I remember thinking that, really there's, there was no way of talking back, and I had in fact attempted an explanation as to why I'd done it, and explained the reasons why I thought this really was very overlookable on the side of the law, erm I don't suppose they paid much attention to it, I don't imagine giving it a moment's thought at all. +At any rate the effect was the same as if I hadn't written at all. +So in a sense there was a kind of instant, automatic, mechanical, ‘I'm the big man, you're the offending person in this respect’ feeling about it, it was a one-way system anyway. +And as I say, if it was done in a very civilized way by people who'd perhaps learnt to smile or somehow turn this, what must be a minor offence, into a minor occasion, erm I think it, it might actually ease relationships. +Thank you. +Another question is more in connection with the Common Market. +Mrs Judy Robinson, from Fermor , wants to know ‘Will the change in the French Presidency alter the balance of power in the E E C?’ +Geoffrey. +Boy. +erm I'm not sure that Anne, erm with her special knowledge of French politics, wouldn't be better at this than me, but these thoughts come through a historian's head. +First, that the change in the government of a particular country erm can never work that much change that quickly in its policies and relations with its neighbours because they are determined by its economy, by its history, by its geography and so on. +erm An awful lot of elements in the equation are fixed already. +And, and, erm just as the changing headmastership of, of a, a big school never alters the character of the school for years and years because it's like a ship which has got momentum going through the water, you can't suddenly change a thing with so many passengers, erm so many tonnes and so on. +Secondly, erm we have a change from erm a so-called conservative president to a, a so-called socialist one. +erm He's limited in lots of ways. +First of all, he's got a general election coming up and we don't know what its result's going to be and it may disappoint him, he may find that the Parliament he has to work with is not going to be of the same cast of mind as himself. +Secondly, erm think of the world of ‘Yes, Minister’, it must be so, or even more so in France perhaps, erm there's this huge French administration which has done things in much the same way through the decades and I suppose won't easily be changed from doing them. +Thirdly, there are some settled lines of foreign policy which he has already said he's no intention of changing. +erm I've been a little bit appalled by the levity with which some of our extreme, extremist politicians recently have spoken about abrogating this or that international obligation entered by the country if a general election returns them to power, as if a, a self-respecting state can do that in a state system. +Well Monsieur Mitterrand has already made it clear that in some important respects I think particularly of defence, erm that, that's he not going to rush into any changes. +So I, if there are going to be changes in French erm France's relations with its neighbours within the E E C, erm I don't see that they can be very quick, and I don't see that they can ultimately be all that large. +I agree absolutely with what Geoffrey has said. +I think one can point to another fact which is that Monsieur Mitterand comes from a political party erm which resembles that of his predecessor in being pro-European. +Neither the erm of the two other major parties are, but both the Socialists and erm President erm ex-President Giscard's party erm were committed to the idea of European integration. +So that in that sense the fundamental orientation is likely to change even less erm than one, than might have been the case if there'd been a more radical change. +Obviously personal relationships erm enter into erm balances of power. +erm Monsieur Mitterand's relationship with erm Chancellor Schmidt for example is certainly not yet anything like as close erm as Chancellor Schmidt's relationship with ex-President Giscard was, but they are both socialists, erm they do have a certain amount in common, and I see no reason why they shouldn't quite quickly build another erm relationship erm that would be quite similar to what happened before. +On certain specific issues there may be changes of emphasis. +Monsieur Mitterand has already said that he's going to seek to drive a harder bargain with Britain over fishing limits even than President Giscard was trying to do, and I think our negotiators must expect a rather tough time as far as fisheries are concerned. +But those are very minor matters, and in the long term, I think, as Geoffrey has said, erm the changes will not be very large or very important. +Why do we always argue about fishing rights and seem to have very little argument about oil? +This is partly because fishing rights erm were written in erm to the, to the European Community system erm as part of in a sense the agricultural policy, erm because they were regarded as part of food policy, and it was thought that you must have, if you're going to have a common agricultural policy, and that was one of the important points erm of the negotiations for setting up the European Community, then a common fisheries policy went alongside with that. +Whereas there isn't erm such clear provisions for a common energy policy erm and there aren't the same arrangements written into the agreement erm about for example sharing energy resources. +At the time when the agreements were written, I don't think anybody foresaw the extent to, of North Sea oil. +In so far as they did see a coming energy source they thought it would be atomic energy, and they wrote the treaty that's called the Euratom Treaty to cover this, but it didn't cover oil, and that is perhaps why it's been a much less contentious subject. +It's been dealt with in a different way and not erm with an attempt to arrive at a common policy about it. +Well thank you very much, Anne, Geoffrey and Norbert. +Unfortunately, that's all that we've got time for today. +If we've not answered your question in this programme, I shall be writing to you directly during the next few days. +This is the end of our current series from the University. +Hopefully we shall be back in the autumn with more news and views to share with you. +But until then, good-bye. +Hello. +In our programmes in the current series about computers, we've talked about all sorts of applications, in business, in science and in industry. +We've recognized that the computer revolution is truly with us and is here to stay. +But what about using how to use them? +Is it easy? +Is it possible for the ordinary man in the street to become confident and competent in handling a computer system, whether it be in his office or in his home? +Erin Sloman is Reader in Artificial Intelligence in the University, and has already contributed a programme earlier in this series. +Erin, how easy is it for the ordinary person to learn how to compute? +I think that at the moment it is not easy for ordinary people to learn to compute on most of the existing computing systems. +There are several different reasons for this. +But let me say that I think it's not in principle difficult. +It is possible now to design computing systems which have much better languages than the ones that are readily available, and much more helpful programs on them, which enable the user to have a kind of dialogue in the way that you would with a person that you're trying to communicate with, whereas, at the moment, you can't have that sort of dialogue. +You've got to be very precise, very clear, you've got to stick rigidly to rules, and these rules are quite unfamiliar to most people, and therefore it's not easy. +erm Let me refer to an advertisement which erm some listeners may have seen in the Radio Times in the last couple of weeks. +This advertises a new home computer and makes a claim which I regard as quite outrageous. +It effectively says that these computers understand English. +Now, that's just not true. +The language that most of the home computers are used with is BASIC, and although there are a few words in that language which look like English words, like ‘If’ and ‘Let’and ‘Go to’and perhaps some others depending on the dialect of BASIC that you have, these words do not work in the way that ordinary English speakers are used to. +Let me give one little example. +If a mother says to a child, as he's going out, ‘If it rains, put your coat on,’ she doesn't mean, ‘Test now whether it is raining, and if it is, then put your coat on, if not, don't bother, and then forget about that instruction.’ +What she means is that this instruction should be borne in mind if at any time it starts raining. +Now, you can't say that kind of thing using ‘If’ in most computer languages, even though they do have an ‘If’. +When that instruction is obeyed in a computing system, it usually means ‘Test right now.’ +And this is one of many ways in which ordinary communication between people depends on our having a very powerful memory, having the ability to look out for situations that we've been warned about, and to take action in accordance with instructions that we've been given previously and have stored up. +Whereas you can't do that sort of thing with erm most computer systems. +There are all sorts of other ways in which it is hard to learn to use existing languages. +Many features of these languages which derive from the historical accident that computers were first used mainly for manipulating numbers. +So the languages have been derived for convenience of mathematical calculations and most people are not very good at mathematics, and they find the kind of symbolism used unnatural and unfriendly. +There is no reason why computers shouldn't be natural and friendly, it's just that it takes a lot more memory in the computer to have all the complex rules of an ordinary language, and also it's much harder to write the programs that tell the computer how to understand a natural language. +On the whole, people use language in a, in a rather sloppy form, it's ambiguous, they, they know what they mean, other people know what they mean but they put in all sorts of inferences by the way in which it's phrased or erm the way in which the words string together or past experience of the person. +Now, to what extent could one move in that direction using a computer, which is a rather precise and definite sort of object that wants to know exactly what it has to do and how it has to do it? +What you've called the sloppiness of English is actually part of its power. +It means that, depending on the context, I can communicate something subtly different from what I intended before without us first having to go through the rigmarole of defining new terminology to extend the language. +And this depends on our having very powerful and general rules in our minds for relating what is said to the broader context. +Now, if we can do it, and it's not magic, then there must be some reasons we can do it, some rules we're following, and those rules can in principle be put into computers. +There are in fact people trying to do this sort of thing. +Last time we talked I mentioned work in artificial intelligence, and this is one of the areas in which work is being done. +And right now there are computing systems in which, with which you can have a conversation, and you can use relatively sloppy English, and, like a person, if the computer doesn't know exactly what you mean, because your words are ambiguous, it will offer you several alternative interpretations erm if it has formed some, and then have a dialogue with you about which one you meant. +Alternatively it'll ask you to rephrase it in some other way. +Now, designing systems like that requires computers with big memories, much, much bigger than the ones that you can buy in your shop round the corner at the moment, and the programs are quite complicated, it's quite difficult to do this sort of thing, but in principle there's no reason why it shouldn't happen, and that would make computers much easier to learn to use. +You talked a lot about computers being more friendly in the future than in the past. +What did you have in mind particularly? +Well, there are a variety of different aspects of friendliness. +One I've already mentioned, namely, if you type something that the computer doesn't understand, it shouldn't just say, ‘I don't understand, Error number three hundred and twenty-two’, or something like that. +It should make some effort to understand. +It should try to work out what sort of thing you were trying to say, and maybe be able to work out in, in a general way what you mean, but just need one extra piece of information to disambiguate what you'd said. +That would be a kind of friendliness. +But there are other kinds of friendliness too. +For instance, another very common language that people use is PASCAL, there's a growing, almost a cult in favour of it. +Now, in some ways it is much better than BASIC. +It is a more powerful language. +It's easier to express complex ideas in PASCAL. +But it is very unfriendly in a way which erm has to do with the type of interaction you've got to have. +In BASIC you can type in an instruction and it gets obeyed immediately. +With PASCAL, you have to prepare a whole program, and then you have to tell the computer to digest it, that's called ‘compiling it’, and then possibly it has to link in with other programs, and then you can run the program. +And this is quite a lengthy procedure, and you might have made mistakes at all sorts of different point. +A friendly system is one where as you talk you are being understood, and you can get some sort of response. +There are other kinds of friendliness too. +For instance, at Sussex University we have developed a system called Pop Eleven, which, like BASIC, is fully interactive, like PASCAL, has structures which enable you to do complex things. +But it also has built in a Help facility, teaching aids, so that if at some point in the middle of developing your program you forget something, you can ask the system erm to tell you for instance how to use one of its facilities, and you can get onto the screen some information about that, and then carry on where you were, and you can switch easily between different modes. +We've attempted to design a system which is friendly in that it takes account of the different needs that a person will have at different times while trying to communicate with a computer. +Well these are just some of the ways in which computers can be made more friendly. +Of course at the moment they're very unfriendly in that you have to learn to type. +erm In principle it should be possible to be able to speak into a microphone, or to write on a pad, with a pencil, and the computer would be connected to the microphone or the pad and would take in and interpret what you've done, without having to learn this rather clumsy method of putting things in one letter at a time. +At the moment, you can get adaptors for computers to cope with some form of speech or at least a limited range of verbal instructions erm and in fact Apple computers and others have little packages which allow about thirty well-defined verbal instructions to, to go in. +Presumably that's just the tip of the iceberg. +Yes. +In principle, though I think it's very difficult, as I understand it right now, you've got to go through a rather unfriendly session of training the computer to respond to your voice, and if you say something in a slightly different way later on it may not recognize it as the word that you had previously trained it on. +But, as you say, this is the tip of the iceberg. +Things are moving and I'm hopeful that these problems will be solved. +I've just been up to the Wembley exhibition of word processor, and one of the things I noticed there was the increasing number of processors and packages which I think you would describe as friendly or at least semi-friendly to, to help people. +Packages which checked your spelling, for example, in something you've put on and very politely suggested that you may or may not have got a word quite correctly spelt that you had intended perhaps spelt one way, it came out as another way, and there must be an awful lot of work going on in this area. +Yes, that is an important aspect of friendliness. +People often, in communicating with one another, say something slightly different from what they intended to say, and the other person will make allowances, using the context. +And there are these spelling-corrector programs, which will in many cases know what you meant, even though you have erm made a mistake. +They have to have a lot of rules built in. +For instance erm if you're communicating via a typewriter, there are various common mistakes which can arise out of the fact that two keys are close together, and so you've hit one key when you meant the other, and knowing that can help the computer to work out what you intended. +And that illustrates what I meant by saying that you need quite complex systems. +There are many such little rules that are needed in order to have a good spelling corrector, that will not make some correction that is not the one you intended. +At the moment, as far as I know, there is on the market no computer that really can have a large memory and is also within the price range for the ordinary primary school or home, but if these new falling prices of memory do come as quickly as some people are predicting, then that could make a huge difference. +What I'm worried about at the moment is that large numbers of people are buying computers, especially some of the cheaper ones, and my prediction is that after a few weeks, they get put into cupboards, and aren't used, because they are so unfriendly, so hard to use, whereas in principle computers could be very powerful and useful devices in the home. +The new packages you mentioned will certainly help. +And are you confident that the friendly brand of computer is coming fairly soon, or is there resistance to it amongst the professionals? +There is some professional resistance, in the sense that people who've done a lot of work on programming get used to certain sorts of languages, and if you make proposals about teaching some new way of dealing with computers, they throw up their hands in horror, and object that this is going to be inefficient, or it's not going to prepare people adequately for what goes on in industry, or whatever. +Now, it may well be, that these objections will just be overridden by the market. +If the new, friendlier systems do come onto the market, and if they're bought as presents and so on, and they get into the homes and they get into the schools, then people will just learn to use them, and it's the existing professionals who may have to change their habits to accommodate. +But that's optimistic. +I think there, there is a lot of inertia in the system, a lot of resistance, especially if people have learnt something complex and put a lot of effort into it, and have written lots of programs using the existing languages. +They're very reluctant to change. +I've experienced that myself, so I have some sympathy for that reaction. +Thank you very much, Erin. +That's all that we have time for today. +Next week the series finishes with a panel discussion about the ways in which society of the future will be affected by the computer revolution. +Incidentally, those listeners who are involved in management, and who are wondering whether microprocessors could contribute to their business, might like to know that there's a one-day seminar going to be run at the University on June the twenty-ninth on this subject. +The seminar is called ‘Product Enhancement Using New Technology’, and as I understand it, the aim of the seminar is to give technical and non-technical managers a clearer understanding of what microprocessors can and can't do. +If you would like further details, contact Sandra Jones, in Engineering and Applied Sciences at the University, or get in touch with me, and I will pass on your enquiry. +Until next week then, good-bye. +Good evening from the University of Sussex. +Tonight we're going to take a look at two aspects of education and I have with me Stephen Ball, who's been carrying out research into the different between streamed and mixed ability classes in comprehensive schools, and Sandy Grassy, who co-ordinates the many links between the science side of the university and schools. +Stephen, let's start with you. +Tell me about your findings. +Well what this has involved me in has been a long study of a single school. +I spent two and a half years working with a single comprehensive school looking at the change in that school from a system of streamed teaching to a system of mixed ability teaching. +Because of the way that erm the school changed over from having a system of streaming in its first three years, to a system where mixed ability was introduced year by year from the first to the third year, I was able to follow two groups of pupils through the school — one lot of pupils in their streamed classes, and then another lot following them on in their mixed ability classes — and try and discover something about the differences in their experience of school in the two different modes, in the streamed and in the mixed ability classes. +What were your general conclusions? +I think the general point would be really a favourable impression of mixed ability teaching. +There's a lot of worry, I know, among parents and also advisers, Local Authority people, about mixed ability teaching, about its impact on standards. +I think the one clear thing to come out from my study is that erm with very careful preparation and with adequate thought about teaching methods that a school can successfully go over to mixed ability teaching without any necessary impact on the standards of performance of the pupils, and this has really been justified recently in the O level results of pupils who have now been through the mixed ability system and finished their O levels in the school. +And they've performed well — in some areas better than the streamed pupils did previously. +What about the brighter children? +Don't they suffer? +Again, this is certainly a worry that is often talked about in terms of mixed ability teaching. +The school was aware of this and specifically created a post of responsibility for the brighter child and gave this to a senior member of the staff, and that member of the staff was responsible for looking at the effects of mixed ability teaching on specifically identified brighter pupils, and I don't think the school would say that erm they totally solve the problem of what to do with the brighter children, but I think it's a problem which exists even in streamed classes because the sort of pupil we're talking about are pupils who are exceptional in their own right. +We're not talking about whole groups of pupils who previously have been in top streams, we're talking about half a dozen, ten individuals in any one year group and they are equally as difficult to deal with in the streamed situation. +And in some ways mixed ability, with its orientation towards individual approaches to learning, provides the possibility of focusing more on those children more than even was possible in the streamed situation. +So I think the school is in the position of wanting to think more about the problem of the brighter child, but they certainly were not unaware of it and were attempting to deal with it. +Isn't your conclusion based on rather a small sample just being two classes from one single school? +That's right, although the examination results were taken for each cohort. +I looked at one, well in fact two classes in each year group in detail, because I really wanted to focus very closely on how the pupils experience the school in the different modes of erm grouping. +What has happened previously in a lot of educational research is that large samples have been taken. +We know something numerically about different systems, but we know little about them experientially, we know little about what it feels like, what the impact is upon individuals in the two different systems, and I really wanted to swing to the other type of research and look in more detail at how different pupils would respond to the streamed situation, not simply in terms of their performance measured in tests, but in terms of their attitudes to school, their attitudes to their life outside of school, their involvement in erm sub-cultural groups or in youth clubs, this kind of thing. +So it really necessitated small samples of pupils who I got to know fairly well, rather than a large sample. +Did the children know that they were being studied, and did the teachers know that they were taking part in such an experiment? +Yes, they knew my role in the school, both the teachers and the pupils. +I think obviously the younger pupils didn't grasp it very clearly. +I normally explain to them that I was writing a book about the school and they certainly understood that. +The teachers were in on my research from the beginning, erm I originally gained the co-operation of the headmaster — he allowed me to come into the school — and then I found the teachers enormously co-operative, in fact, far more cooperative than I had a really had a right to expect. +They would ask me into their classes to watch them teach; they gave me time for interviews; they allowed me into staff meetings and departmental meetings and I at various points in my research I erm attempted to feed back to them some of the material that I was coming up with, and we would have meetings to discuss this and I would erm use those meetings then to refine my ideas. +From the viewpoint of this being and objective experiment, I would be a little bit worried about everyone knowing the nature of the experiment you had in mind, because, as you probably know, in industrial studies there's a well-known effect, I think it's called the Hawthorn effect, which merely by studying a group of people you change their behaviour and their output, simply because they know that you're taking an interest in them and they've got some idea of your expectations. +Are you sure this didn't happen in your study? +Well I was certainly aware of this. +I think it is adequately dealt with as problem because of the really the length and the depth of my involvement with the school. +I was there, as I said, for two and a half years, so it would have been difficult for the teachers to respond to my presence in an artificial way because I was there for such a long time. +Really I think I am able to demonstrate in the written account of the research that I am presenting a very real account of their teaching and their problems, as well as their successes. +erm sometimes I was able to observe lessons that went wrong and were very difficult for the teachers, as well as the lessons that were successful, so I don't really think it emerged as problem at the end. +So you're really in favour of mixed ability teaching in comprehensive schools? +I would be, yes. +I think the advantages outweigh the disadvantages. +I mean perhaps the point I haven't brought out, which was another enormous effect from the mixed ability teaching, or the mixed ability grouping, was the improvement in the pupils erm behaviour. +One of the problems with the streamed situation was that those pupils who found themselves in the bottom streams, who found that they were perhaps not regarded so highly, or so positively by their teachers, tended to respond with misbehaviour in their classes with occasionally vandalism around the school and a generally a negative attitude towards the school and their teachers in general. +And the immediate effect of the mixed ability grouping was to eradicate behavioural problems of that kind almost entirely. +There were no longer groups of pupils in any one class who were against the school and were erm wanting to disrupt the teaching of their erm of their teachers, and really problems were reduced to individuals in teach class, one or two pupils, which erm didn't present the same massive problem to teachers as the bottom streamed groups had done previously. +So this was a very positive outcome which the teachers, not unexpectedly, were very pleased about, this improvement in the behaviour of pupils. +Does it require a special sort of teacher, one with particular gifts, to do this satisfactorily? +I think it makes a lot of demands upon the teacher. +It's not something that is done easily or lightly. +Some of the newly qualified teachers, perhaps, found some difficulties initially in coping with the wide range of abilities the mixed ability classes presented them with, and in some ways the school was not well provided with in-service support for mixed ability teaching and had to do a lot of their own work in terms of the appropriate methods to choose, the appropriate resources, the appropriate materials to develop. +So not every teacher was one hundred per cent successful with mixed ability teaching, but I don't think one can ever expect that with a new method and I think now that the system has been running for a number of years in the school that it's possible for each department to support new members of staff and introduce them to the appropriate methods and approaches to mixed ability classes. +What proportion of comprehensive schools now have mixed ability teaching? +Well it's a difficult question to ask in a answer in a way because, because the pattern of grouping differs enormously from school to school. +There are still very few schools that have mixed ability groups in all of their first three years, but more and more school are introducing some mixed ability group in their first three years, and about thirty per cent have mixed ability grouping in their first year now. +Something around fifteen per cent have mixed ability in the first three years. +Beyond that there are very few. +When the C S Es/O Levels arrive at the beginning of the fourth year most schools decide to separate out their pupils into different groups, although in the school I was studying in and in one or two other schools, it's possible to parallel C S E examinations with the existing O Level examinations and therefore to continue to teach the pupils in mixed ability groups, and that happened in English in the school I was studying, and in other schools it has happened in other subjects. +Presumably the case for streaming gets stronger as you go higher up in a school? +Certainly the constraints of examinations make it more and more difficult to cope with the range of abilities in the mixed ability class. +I think this hits different subjects in different ways. +It happens perhaps sooner in the languages and in science than it does, say, in History or English or geography, and certainly language teachers find much more difficulty in teaching mixed ability classes. +And one tends to find that languages — French/German — are the first to abandon mixed ability, usually in the second year, sometimes the third year of a comprehensive school. +Is it government policy to move in the direction of mixed ability classes? +I don't think one could say policy, no. +erm I think the move in this direction is a drift really. +There's been no guidance from the government, but they don't certainly they certainly don't seem to be against mixed ability teaching. +There's been a recent H M Is report, which has asked some questions about mixed ability teaching and expressed some worries about those teachers who perhaps don't have the adequate support and preparation for mixed ability teaching, but they're certainly not against it, or the H M Is are certainly not against mixed ability teaching. +What research in this area needs to be done now? +Well I think really what one must look for now is more detailed research on what actually goes on in mixed ability classrooms. +Really we know still know very little about what teachers actually do in the classroom, and it's all very well standing back in university and saying teachers should do this and should do that, but in order to be able to offer guidance I think we really need to do more research in mixed ability classrooms to discover how teachers are at the moment dealing with the situation and where we might offer them more support, and that's the direction I'd like to see research go in, rather than more erm of the grandiose large-scale quantitative studies, which collect lots of figures and statistics — I'd like to see a lot more studies in actual classrooms looking at actual teachers teaching. +erm looking at what they do and how we can improve that. +Do you have any plans yourself for more research in this area? +Well I hope to look more at mixed ability teaching. +Really it's a problem of erm time and resources. +The difficulties are that one has to spend a lot of time sitting in the classroom working with the teacher, or observing the teacher, and it's difficult to find that time when one is teaching at university. +So often the push is in the opposite direction to doing research which doesn't involve one in long-term contact with the schools, and this of course is one of the reasons why this type of research isn't so often done, but I hope to do some more work in classrooms, yes. +One last question. +How does being in a mixed ability class affect the social development of children? +Well that was of the interesting things to come out of the study, erm something which was totally unexpected as far as I was concerned, and that was it seemed that the pupils in the mixed ability classes developed more slowly socially than the pupils in the streamed classes. +This was manifested in a number of ways, particularly in that pupils still in their second year in the mixed ability classes would be talking about playing with their friends and generally their attitudes towards the teenage culture of pop music and magazines and fashions and discotheques didn't seem to develop so quickly as it had in the streamed situation, and I think really this comes from the problem of those pupils in the streamed situation — in the bottom streams in particular— who found that they wanted alternatives to school when they were in an inferior position in the school. +They were devalued, if you like, by finding themselves in the bottom streams and so they tended to look for out of school things, alternatives to school, from which to gain their satisfactions, and they would look to the pop media, to fashion, to football, to these kinds of things. +And in the mixed ability situation this certainly did not happen in the same way. +So the children, in a sense, remained children longer in the mixed ability situation, and again this was something that the teachers found very pleasing in that the pupils were remaining erm involved in the school much more and much longer in the mixed ability situation. +Sandy, you have the rather impressive title of Coordinator of Educational Activities for the Science Area. +What sort of activities are these? +Could you give me an example? +Well as example of the kind of thing that we've just finished doing is we've run a course for local school teachers from East and West Sussex on using electronics in schools. +We wanted very much erm to help teachers to work from circuit diagrams and to build the electronics, and then, as we said, at least to worry about why it didn't work and try several tests before giving up completely. +We ran this kind of course by asking the teachers at the beginning of the course to select some device they'd like to make, that they'd seen the circuit of in a in a school magazine school science review magazine, and then build that. +We would teach the electronics necessary to devise the tests and how it worked and things like that, and sure enough by the end of the time some of them had built devices, well all sorts of devices. +Yes. +Is this done during the evenings, or during holidays, or weekends? +This is done on Saturdays and Wednesday evenings — all day Saturday and a Wednesday evening, on a fortnightly basis. +And it's open to any teacher, any science teacher, to apply to come on this course? +Any science teacher to apply to come on the course. +That sounds a very good scheme. +What about erm the chemistry area, the School of Molecular Sciences, do they do similar things? +The way that they get involved is that they try to back up some of the school teaching in the sixth form chemistry. +They take groups of school children in to look at experiments and techniques that are far too complicated perhaps, expensive perhaps, or even dangerous, to run in a school — like X-ray crystallography and infra-red spectrometry. +A group of children will come in from a school, with their sixth form science teacher, and go round the chemistry laboratories for an afternoon looking at techniques like this. +Yes. +Are they actually allowed to operate the machinery, or +No, this is they can not get their hands on it. +They +But they see it working? +They see it working and often they are given a print out of the results at the end of a spectrum or something like that that they can take back to the school with them and analyze. +Yes. +This is for sixth formers and teachers. +Do you do anything for children lower down in the school? +Yes, we do. +We offer lecture service erm for children at a lower level in the school. +This is quite important because when a child in the third form the kids are making up their mind whether to do science or not. +They know about science from television and from their school teacher, and any other source of information to them is really beneficial to let them make a sensible decision. +For instance, we offer topics like ‘How small a thing can you see?’ or ‘Exploring the solar system’, or ‘How small can you make things?’. +These are lectures that are pitched directly at their level erm with the knowledge that they have round about the third year in schools, so that they can see some of the problems that physics tackles. +We have, for instance, one lecture on how you tell how Napoleon died. +There's a technique in nuclear physics, called neutron activation, which allows you to measure quantities of trace very small quantities of particular elements in materials and it's been applied to looking at the concentration of arsenic in Napoleon's hair, and you find that there are particular periods in his life when he got dosed with arsenic_ one's not quite sure how — and at those particular times he was erm very ill; it correlates very well with the historical evidence. +Of course all of this took place on St Helena, when one cynically feels that the British would rather get rid of Napoleon. +This kind of erm usage of nuclear physics is often of a lot of interest and understandable to a child in the third form. +Supposing a school wanted a talk on a particular topic, could they just write in and erm contact you and ask you whether you could provide a lecturer on that subject? +Oh yes. +We certainly feel that this is a possibility. +In fact, we would rather do it that way. +To start the exchange we have to suggest a list of possible topics, but we also feel confident that we could should be able to lecture on any topic, any scientific topic, to, for instance, third form children certainly. +Tell me about the one day schools for school teachers that you run. +The one day schools that we run for school teachers in the South East of England, a larger catchment area than the East and West Sussex — in fact it goes up towards London and it includes London — it goes out towards Kent and Portsmouth. +These are lectures lecture courses which happen on one day and which are really designed to cover something of interest to sixth form science teachers, usually sixth form physics teachers. +For instance, plasma physics, space research, superconductivity, astronomy, topics like that. +erm the format for these is one of four lectures, in which we revise in the first lecture ideas that are round about sixth form level and then in two lectures following that we take the teacher through, very quickly, the kind of coverage that we give to the topic in the university. +And then at the end we will run a single lecture, a kind of gee whizz lecture, something that shows the applications of the ideas we've been working on during the day to some particularly unusual branch of physics. +You haven't actually mentioned biologists or applied scientists. +Are they involved in these schemes at all? +The biologists and applied scientists are involved in the schemes in that they also are part of the resource that one would consider in the university to give talks to school children. +The biologists and the applied scientists have done this, have offered lectures to school children, mostly in response to requests that have come in to them for specific lectures. +They don't offer erm a list of lectures at the moment. +Thank you. +And the activities you describe are separate from those laid on, for example, by the British Association for Young Scientists, which also hold meetings +Oh yes. +They are definitely separate. +Those are large one day meetings for school children at fourth form level or so. +These are completely separate from them. +And I believe there are also courses laid on erm in the educational development building for teachers by the educational area? +Yes, these are for the in-service B Ed. and various other courses like that, yes, and some of them have a scientific aspect to them and we're involved in those as well. +Thank you Sandy and Stephen. +Next week is the last programme in this series. +We shall be taking a look at the Media Services Unit at the university that has provided the technical services for producing these programmes, and also we shall be talking about the response to the programmes themselves. +Until next week, then. +Goodnight. +Hello. +This is the second in two programmes in which I talk to Professor Nuttall about Shakespeare and his plays. +I find it amazing that Shakespeare's still as popular as ever, and I started by asking Tony why this was the case. +Why, after all these years, people still seem to be able to find something new to say about him. +Speaking as an old university hack who's been teaching courses in this place since nineteen sixty two, the Shakespeare course is the one thing which is utterly and deeply different every time I teach it. +Trying to stop short of bardolotry, but it really is astonishing. +I get the feeling that I begin to know my way around, to know at least most of the chess moves of it. +With Shakespeare almost every time that I read more than forty lines, I see something I'd never seen before, which is demonstrably there. +erm he does seem to me to be me the best — I mean all this common opinion is true — he is a writer of indefinite richness and it is amazing, but the case. +I've nothing to add really . +One does, quite genuinely find more all the time. +Do you think it was the case that when Shakespeare was actually writing these plays he had any real concept of the richness of his producing, or was this all superstructure which has been put there by various university professors since? +Well I think it's not a superstructure that's been put there because, I mean, for example when you get a particular idea there are often other questions you can ask to check whether it's really present, to see whether the thing is alluded to at the appropriate point later in the plot and that sort of thing. +And erm again and again you find that it is, that the thing you half suspected is mentioned by a character later, and when I find that I'm strongly inclined to suppose that Shakespeare has put it there. +The question whether he was conscious of all these layers when writing seems to me unanswerable. +I have no doubt that he was very, very intelligent in the ordinary meaning of the word. +For example I think he probably had a very high I Q for what that's worth. +Ever since Ben Jonson people have thought of him piping native woodnotes wild and not being terribly educated. +Education isn't the same thing as intelligence. +He had lot of intelligence and not all that much education. +I think he was conscious of a great deal probably, but at the same time many writers will tell you that they find when they've finished a poem or a play things in it, demonstrably in it, systematically and intelligently present with real relations, which they don't remember writing. +This is why you often get writers saying ‘Don't ask me, look again at the poem’ or ‘Trust the tale, not the teller’. +And the marvellous thing in Plato of Socrates, when he'd been told by the Delphic Oracle that he was the wisest of men, he started off like a sort of good poperian scientist trying to falsify this and he went round finding people wiser than himself and he went to various people and they weren't any wiser, and then he thought ‘Oh, the poets, they're marvellous people, they know so much’, and he went to them and he found that the hadn't a clue what they'd written. +And he concluded, quite soberly, that they must have been visited by muse. +It seems to me a very reasonable conclusion. +I mean you can re-dress it up in Freudian terms and say their unconscious did it, which is really a very similar thing to say. +I mean the unconscious becomes a sort of god in that case. +erm so what I'm saying is my guess is, and it's no more than that, that Shakespeare was probably conscious of a lot of it, but there's also probably an area that came from a very rich and active unconscious. +But all that's just guessing, I mean we've no way of testing it. +To what extent do you think that the creation of all these, as it were, structures on Shakespeare is a useful exercise, or do you think it's a little bit like sort of medieval philosophy and taking a little a long, long way? +Well it's like medieval philosophy in that it's not utilitarian. +To me the justification really depends on the fact that I view Shakespeare as a terminal good. +That is to say I think that a world without Shakespeare in it would be a world substantially impoverished. +I think Shakespeare is a good complex thing in the universe. +That I take as a sort of axiom, as given to start with, in this argument. +Then it follows from that that understanding Shakespeare and keeping the understanding of Shakespeare alive is also a good because if, for example, this great, rich and wonderful thing were simply there in the world and no-one could see him and no-one could understand him, and no-one was any longer thinking or talking about him, that also would be a secondary impoverishment. +And erm I don't feel any shame, therefore, about going on with it. +Really what I was saying is I think probably came over, but I will rephrase it. +I'm sorry . +There's a sense to which, to put it in current terms +Yes. +when I say ‘I am cold’ I may just mean I am cold and it may not be a statement about my view of myself with regard to society and my particular stage of middle age crisis and so on and so forth, although, you know, given a certain number of intelligent people they could no doubt build an enormous emphasis on +Yes, well +the simple straightforward statement ‘I am cold’ and I just wondered whether, you know, extrapolating backwards whether we're doing the same disservice to Shakespeare. +You're talking to the wrong man on this. +I'm not in sympathy with you, you see. +You're putting the point about over-reading Shakespeare. +You'd find lots of academics erm at the Shakespeare Conference in Stratford who would agree with you that there is far too much over-reading of Shakespeare. +I tend to think it's rather hard to over-read Shakespeare, simply because of the experience of finding that my reading fell short on many occasions. +It is very easy to read him wrong and to make mistakes, and there are, of course, occasions when he does offer a brutal simplicity, which it would be ridiculous to try and develop. +I myself, for example, tend to be an old-fashioned Coleridge and psychologistic critic, you know, I look for motives in Shakespearean characters, in ways which Elsie Knights told us we shouldn't do, and I do this because I think Shakespeare encourages us to make inferences and to think about them in that way. +However, if you take characters like Lysander and Demetrius in A Midsummer-Night's Dream, it's obvious , even to me, that it would be ridiculous to try and look for complex psychology and motivation in them, you know. +There are cases where you can over-read, sure, but by and large over-reading is not the main vice of Shakespearean criticism. +If anything, we went the other way after erm how many children had Lady Macbeth, and we under-read. +We decided that Shakespeare's plays were mere patterns of imagery, without human beings in them, and by a strange act of critical abnegation, deliberately blinded ourselves to all sorts of psychological insights, which the Victorians had been able to see and are now being seen again. +One of your major interests has been that of the relationship of allegory to +Yes. +Shakespearean plays of one kind and another. +Could you tell me a little bit about that? +Well, my interest in allegory really began at quite a different point. +I was initially troubled by a philosophical problem. +Can I explain that, or try to ? +Yes. +I was struck by the fact that in one of the dialogues of Plato, Plato gets very worried about the notion of beauty, because he thinks beauty is something which is beautiful. +He also thinks beauty is that in virtue of which we call beautiful things beautiful. +Now if the beautiful things are beautiful, and if beauty itself is beautiful, what of the beauty in respect of which both beauty and the beautiful things are beautiful? +Is that also beautiful? +Sorry, this is pretty mind-blowing, but he has got himself into difficulties because he things that beauty is not, so to speak, a logical construction that allows us to talk about particular objects in the world, he thinks it is itself a sort of spiritual thing. +He thinks it is itself something beautiful that sort of swims down into our world and is incarnated in particular objects, and then he wonders about that because his own way of forming universals means that he'd have to do it all again and again and again in an infinite regress, so he has a problem, basically, about calling beauty itself beautiful. +Now meanwhile — not meanwhile, but quite a lot later — in early medieval allegory, you find that the allegorical poet has a quite ordinary technical problem when he's writing about things like mercy and cruelty. +He wants to show the relation of mercy and cruelty and of course they conflict, so he writes a poem in which there's a battle and there's a character called Cruelty, who comes and fights against a character called Mercy. +Now Cruelty is going to be called as cruel because that's the way allegorical poetry works. +Mercy is going to be shown as merciful, so as soon as they start to fight Mercy starts trying to forgive Cruelty and Cruelty easily wins. +Mercy wants to say, of course, that Cruelty in this god-governed universe is going to be defeated by Mercy, so he's got a technical problem. +His technical problem again arises basically from the fact that he calls Cruelty cruel. +Most modern philosophers would say it was nonsense to say that Cruelty was cruel and only call people cruel or particular things. +So there they both are, Plato with a metaphysical problem, the poet with a technical problem. +Because of their habit of referring to universals with adjectives derived from the universal, calling Beauty beautiful, calling Cruelty cruel. +When I looked at all this stuff, it came to me that it was very interesting that they thought of Beauty as beautiful and Cruelty as cruel. +It meant, in fact, that they were thinking of abstractions in quite a different way from the way we think of them. +erm the technical word for this is that for them universals are self-predicating — that sounds very and intelligible. +It means in effect that they had a quasi-sensuous way of seeing abstractions. +They saw abstractions as in some warm and coloured, and the sort of things to which you could appropriately apply quite vivid adjectives. +Now that in turns means that the poetry of the period, and the allegorical poetry of the period especially, is not as F R Levis would probably have assumed, to be divided into cold intellectual abstractions and warm sensuous particulars, there is a sense in which the very abstractions have a sensuous property, perhaps through a philosophical mistake, but nevertheless it was the way their minds were build. +You can see their minds were build that way because of the problems they get into both philosophically and technically. +Therefore, I decided that I had the clue to something that had long baffled me, that whereas Levis's strict division of the world into sensuous particulars and more intellectual abstractions — I hope I'm being fair to him, I'm caricaturing and shortening _ whereas this was applicable to the modern period, it probably wasn't to the period I decided, I think, roughly before the eighteenth century, and with this in mind I then turned to the mysterious last plays of Shakespeare that we've been talking about earlier and tried to see whether the sense one gets in those plays of love, for example, not as simply a logical construction for talking about the way people behave in relation to each other , but as some kind of spiritual entity existing prior to the human subjects in the play, whether that sense could be in some degree confirmed and explained by an investigation of the general use of universals in the period and earlier. +This approach could be explored with other sorts of literature. +Yes, indeed. +The bible, for example, I would have thought was a +Yes, it could. +One thing that I had to say, frankly, at the beginning of my book on allegory was that The Tempest was not the necessary base of that book. +It was, in fact, just a peculiarly rich and extended example, and the kind of thing I was doing was in principle applicable to great numbers of texts. +That was why, when you first asked me about this, I turned the whole question round and said ‘You have to begin from the philosophical problem’, but indeed it could be applied in many places. +Let me pick up a few points which occur to me arising out of what you've just been saying. +First of all beauty, which is a word which is used by all sorts of philosophers. +I remember erm wasn't it Eyre that made great mileage of saying that just because there's a word for beauty doesn't mean to say that there's such a thing as beauty. +Yes, well Eyre there stands as a sort of a paradigmatic modern philosopher, and when I was saying earlier that it was just a logical construction to help you to talk about particular things, and I think Eyre would go along with that. +He is in fact opposing himself to the view that I was trying to get out of the older writers, namely that beauty is the name of some sort of spiritual being. +As a non-philosopher I always used to find that slightly depressing statement that of Eyre's about beauty, and it seemed to me that one could immediately follow that by saying just because there's a word for it maybe you have it because you like it and you want to use it and isn't that self-validating in a sense . +Well, erm it may not be quite as depressing as you think. +Someone who says there is not actual entity separate from the world called beauty could still be a chap who believed that the word beautiful had a vivid and important use. +He would simply say it refers to all those aspects of things which make them beautiful considered in some, and that, if you think of that as a sort of mental object for a moment, is a very rich one. +erm it doesn't, for example, necessarily imply that statements about beauty are merely subjective, or are delusory or are soft headed, or maybe that Eyre would want to say that on another occasion . +I mean Eyre can be very depressing, you know, I'd go along with that all the way. +That's all that we have time for today. +Until next week then, goodbye. +Good evening from the University of Sussex. +Tonight we're going to take a look at the work of the Institute of Development Studies, which is based at the university. +This is a national centre concerned with Third World development and with the relationships between rich and poor countries. +To tell us about their work I have with me the Director, Richard Jolly, two of the permanent fellows of the Institute, Dudley Sears and Carlos Fortin, and a visiting fellow Beana Aguwa. +Beana let me start by asking you what is the Institute of Development Studies. +The Institute is a national institute concerned with research and teaching in the area of the development studies. +We were founded in nineteen sixty six. +We grew very rapidly until the last five years or so, since when we've levelled off in size, but erm the range of our activities in various countries abroad and indeed in Britain, has continued to grow. +What do you actually mean by development? +Well if you asked me that ten or fifteen years ago I think I could have given a rather easy answer erm namely that development studies was concerned with the problems of countries in Africa, Asia and Latin America, and how they could erm accelerate their economic, social and political development to provide better living standards for all their population. +So do you deal only with under-developed countries? +Well that's why I said ten or fifteen years ago it would have been easy to give an answer. +Increasingly, as we've been studying the problems of developing countries, two major changes have been occurring; one in our own thinking that in many ways problems of developing countries are linked in extricably with things that are going on in Britain or Europe or other parts of the so-called industrial world, and secondly that as we've been studying developing countries, we've been finding that more and more problems in Britain and other industrial countries begin to look like some of the same problems that we've been used to in developing countries. +Indeed, people begin to talk about under-developed Britain, or under-developing Britain, so that we now don't see this sharp division between British problems as a developed country, and developing countries' problems in Zambia, or Chile, or wherever, or India. +Rather we see they are related sets of problems, needing in part national solutions and in part international changes. +Do you do most of your work by travelling overseas, or is it done at Sussex? +There's a great range really. +We have some erm members of staff who are permanently working in different countries at any one time — probably five/six people from the Institute. +During any year most staff members of the Institute will spend a few weeks, if not two or three months, in erm some developing country, or perhaps several, and of course we're also heavily involved in international agencies. +But we ourselves see a close link between this operational experience and involvement and the research work which, for the most part, does take place erm here in Sussex. +Carlos, you're in charge of the Study Programme. +What does that involved? +Well the Institute has a large teaching study and training programme, which is essentially centered around what we call a study seminar. +We have about seven or eight of those every year. +They bring together some twenty to twenty-five people, mostly from Third World countries, but including some aid administrators from Britain and other developed countries, and they stay together for between four and six weeks, working together in a wide range of different topics and with various objectives. +We have some that are very specific, in the sense that they are intended to provide certain particular skills or techniques. +For instance at the moment we are running one on statistical techniques for Third World officials. +Other are much broader. +The one before this one, co-incidentally, was a very broad one, which was an attempt at assessing the results of Five, which of course took place in Manila in May/June, and right after that, with the participation of some of the people who had been, in Five we tried to assess what impact, if any, their conference is going to make for the future of the world economic system. +So we have a wide range of them. +The purpose is not to is not to train in the sense of imparting knowledge to people who don't have it, but rather to put whatever experience they have into context, on which we can have something to contribute. +Are these study programmes open to people from any country? +That's right. +So individuals, say, from Russia or Communist Block countries could come if they wished to? +They certainly could. +The study programme is essentially erm addressed towards erm Third World countries, and it is supported by British technical assistance, and therefore a number of the participants, a large number, are funded by technical assistance funds. +Those of course would have to qualify according to the rules of technical assistance and British aid, but in principle the study seminars are certainly open and we normally have people from countries other than the Third World ones. +Do you run programmes similar to that overseas,Beana , or just at Sussex? +Well we're the study seminars can take place either at Sussex or overseas, and in fact our present policy is to try and increase the number that actually take place in the Third World, because we feel that that has a number of advantages. +How do you know whether they are successful or not? +That's a very big question, and in fact we're trying now to with the co-operation of the British Counsel, who act as a recruiting agent for our purposes, erm to conduct a survey, a sort of customer survey, of the kind of acceptance our problem has had. +We've just conducted a very primary review, and we found that the interest and the demand for these seminars has been pretty constant since at least the early seventies, therefore we feel that we are we seem to be fulfilling a need of Third World governments and agencies. +Not only governmental, but private and voluntary agencies too. +In addition, a number of people who have gone through our study seminars keep in touch with us and tell us that they are using some of the things they've learned here to be exposed here for their own work, but it's very difficult to tell. +I mean we hope we're doing the right thing, and as I say the response we're getting seems to indicate that, but we have not erm followed through each of we have a large number of participants every year, you see, in the order of about erm a hundred and fifty each year, so very difficult for you to try and follow through the fate of each of them. +Thank you. +Dudley, you've been involved with the Institute right from the beginning, since it was founded, and you're very heavily involved in its research programme. +I wonder if you could give us some idea of the sort of topics that people are engaged in? +There's a very wide range of erm topics. +Most of the are concerned with what helps or does not help development overseas in the way of local policies. +For example in the health field there's been quite a lot of research at the Institute and, of course in the field, on the effects of different kinds of health policies. +Should a government, which doesn't have much in the way of financial resources and technical resources, should it go for erm a big teaching hospital in the capital, for example, or should it put its priorities rather on the rural area, on smaller scale, more preventive medicine? +That sort of choice is erm open to governments and erm research can throw some light on the implications of one route or another. +Other fields that we've been working on particularly are the educational field and the content and scale of education, it's link with the unemployment problem and it would take too long really to list the whole range. +I could perhaps mention titles only: technology, choice of technology and the link with the again the unemployment problem; fields like rural development planning and erm the associated questions of rural industrialization of the balance between town and country, of migration from the country to the town and it's implications for both country and town. +And of course another erm field is the effect of erm British and other rich country policies in aid and trade on countries overseas and what sort of policies are helpful to development — in a broad sense, not just to economic growth, but to social, political, as well as economic development of erm of overseas countries. +I know you've just recently come back from Uganda. +Are the economic prospects for Uganda quite bright? +Well that is a very difficult one for anybody who erm has to try and sort out the ideological, tribal, personal rivalries in Uganda and to answer the question of whether these are going to get in the way of some sort of erm coherent government policy and political stability. +Perhaps I should just say a word about that that operation since you've raised it, because it is one type of job that we do, that is taking part in a rather large group, in this case sponsored by the Commonwealth Secretariat at the request of the government of Uganda after the fall of erm of Amin, to assess the rehabilitation needs of the country and to suggest what policies should be priority policies for their point of view and what contribution could be made by other countries through aid and erm other ways of technical assistance and fellowships for training and so forth, to help in this rehabilitation. +Do you think that the prospects of of erm economic erm future for Uganda are bright? +Is it a rich country in resources? +They have, yes, they have potentially erm they have potentially the natural resources for quite erm a lot of development. +erm potentially, in a rich soil, in a wide range of erm crops, of course, coffee, cotton, tea, especially have been export earners in the past, but also they produce sugar and erm basic foodstuffs. +And in addition to that, of course, they have copper, and coming up on the future horizon cobalt, and erm the possibilities of developing tourism on quite a big scale, as they were beginning to do in the nineteen sixties before Amin Amin took over. +Beana, you're a visiting research fellow. +Where do you come from? +India. +From India. +And I understand that your special interest is the role of women. +Yes, that's right. +Just in India, or in the world as a whole? +I'm interested in the role of women all over the world, particularly in terms of what effect development strategies have had on women's position, not merely in India but in other parts of the world as well, because I feel that there are a lot of common experiences which impinge on the problem as it relates to India. +mhm. +Could you give me some idea of what you've found out, or what you feel on the subject. +Well one of the aspects that I have been looking at is erm the impact of technical change on women's position in the rural areas, and particularly as it concerns women who belong to landless households, or women who belong to small peasant cultivator households. +And in looking at the experience not merely of Asia, but also of Africa, what becomes increasingly apparent is that most development strategies have tended _ particularly when we look at technical change — erm have tended to bypass women, or in many cases one also notes that the impact of technical change has been detrimental to poor women, and examples of this can be found, for instance, in terms of adoption of certain kinds of technique, like mechanisation of rice processing in parts of Asia, where one finds that there has been a large scale displacement of landless women. +Similarly, one can find examples where in the African context, women are the primary producers in agriculture and this non-recognition of this fact has often led to the incongruous situation where strategies erm for change modernisation programmes have erm been directed to me and this erm has meant often the kind of bias in extension services, in training services, has meant that the target group, that is the women towards whom you should really be aiming those programmes, has not have not benefited, and this obviously has detrimental effects on your potential for increasing a casual output and for solving problems of increasing erm productivity and income for these women. +The whole idea behind the I D S sounds perhaps at first as if its a little bit like an old missionary organization which has been set up to help the natives. +erm is that element there? +Aren't people like yourselves being a little bit presumptuous and perhaps even arrogant in feeling that you can help people solve their problems in the rest of the world. +I would hope not. +Not in the sense that the practical outcome of research on problems in developing countries would not, we hope, be positive. +We hope very much it will be useful, but as I tried to stress at the beginning, we very much see the problems of developing countries, which we in the Institute are working on, as part of the problems of what's going wrong in the world at the moment, in which we in Britain very much have a stake too. +Now I personally believe that most erm policy makers in Britain, and indeed in most other industrial countries, don't really believe the Third World matters to them at all. +You see our most recent budget was largely constructed even neglecting what was happening in other industrial countries. +It certainly gave virtually no attention to the impact of erm issues from developing countries, and yet within a matter of weeks we've had the energy problem bringing home directly to the reality of policy in Britain the need to understand and to establish new forms of economic relationships with developing countries. +Its why I say because of this that we have a stake in terms of our own enlightened self-interest in understanding better developing countries. +I might just say one other thing, though, that I think it's a great mistake to see the I D S, which as I said is a national institute at Sussex, as somehow just a British institution on its own looking at these problems. +We have links with other with the university of Sussex, but with other institutions in Britain. +Equally, and in some respects more important, we have a lot of links with other institutions, equivalent institutions, in other countries, other rich countries and particularly other developing countries. +So I would see it as something of a network, internationally, to try and provide research and study related to how all countries can move better to take account of the never greater level of inter-dependence within the world economy. +And we have a stake in that. +We also have a sort of partnership with other institutions in understanding better our stake in it and other people's stake in it. +But isn't there a sense in which people in other countries really have to help themselves, at least in the first instance? +I remember visiting a year or two ago a project in Mexico, where an American organization had moved in and made a careful study, decided that the ideal thing for the local people to do would be to raise chickens, so they put fences up, supplied them with goodness knows how many hundred thousand chickens; within a year they'd killed the chickens, pulled the fences down and used them to cook the chickens and they were back exactly where they were. +Now isn't this a the sort of problem that you run into if you try and impose aid from outside? +Of course, and if you go back to the answer Beana was giving, even within a country if you try if we try and solve other people's problems, one is very likely, if not always, to end up with those sorts of difficulties. +People have got to be involved in solving themselves the problems themselves. +But if it's a world problem, if there are international dimensions to our problems in Britain, or to Kenya's problems in Kenya, or to Mexico's Mexican problems in Mexico, then somehow we've got to have international groups looking at the international aspects of those problems. +That's particularly what the I D S is now concerned with. +Is there a danger in actually introducing too much western technology into countries? +I remember, again a few years ago, visiting India and buying one or two beautifully carved tables, which had obviously been carved by an individual spending quite a lot of time doing it, and I was impressed at that stage, rather naively perhaps, that if in fact I'd bought a plain table, an uncarved one, it would have cost me about ten times as much, for the simple reason that that would require a milling machine which was not normally available, and such was the erm economy that it was cheaper for people to do this. +Now in a sense erm the question I'm asking is by introducing lots of modern machinery, you could perhaps kill a particular trade or craftsmanship in a whole group of people which may, in fact, be their key for erm future survival +mhm. +Yes. +economically. +This may be the thing that the world as a whole would want to buy from them at economic rates. +But erm I'm sure you should not look on the Institute as a sort of vehicle for introducing western technology. +On the contrary, it draws attention to the dangers of introducing western technology outside, and even in the west it's a good illustration this of the extent to which or work in countries overseas has relevance for Britain, because we have done a great deal of work on the implications for the unemployment problem of having technology which requires too much capital, which has a very ratio of capital to labour. +Well that also is a problem in this country as well. +We clearly need to look very carefully at the implications of many new technologies for jobs in this country. +The context is different, especially for an exporter of manufactures like Britain, but there's a basic common question which arises at the root of the problems of erm technology choice in Africa, in Asia, Latin America and in a European country like Britain. +Basically everything we all agree at the Institute the question of improving the lot of the Third World is the responsibility of Third Worlders, and in fact a number of us would add that in very many cases, certainly not in all, it would not be achieved through slow incremental technical change, but would require in some cases very major social structural changes that in some cases erm will only be brought about very major social upheaval erm and there all we can do is add to perhaps the element of increasing consciousness and awareness of the problems, which furthermore is a two way street, I mean when we have this study activities we learn as much from the people who attend the seminars as we tell them. +Now the one thing that I think is important is that one cannot look at the problems of any given society in the world in isolation from the rest of the world as a whole, and in particular, in the case of underdeveloped countries, their problems are very much linked to the situations that take place in the developed countries. +I was co-ordinating operational activities in the Institute, an international project on commodities last year, and I had to visit a number of research institutes in Asia, erm in Africa and in the Americas, where they were conducting studies on the commodities they produced. +Now I was I wouldn't say surprised because the matter is already well know, but I found an additional piece of evidence for the proposition that while they knew a lot about what happened to their commodities in their countries — how it was produced, how it was distributed internally and how it was sold internationally — they generally didn't have very much information as to what happened afterwards. +In other words, they didn't know. +They didn't have any control, certainly, and not even very much knowledge as to how the commodity — and I'm talking about cotton, rubber, tea, copper, bauxite, coco, sugar, coffee and so on— what happened to it when it enters the market of a developed country. +Now that's the kind of information that is absolutely vital for them to understand, in fact for us — I mean I myself am from the Third World — to understand what the problems are, but which can only be achieved with centres in the developed countries that are prepared to make this into a working programme erm for the benefit of both, because in very many cases improving erm the lot of the Third World on the question of revenue from commodities will also improve their position, or the British or the American, or the European consumer, by eliminating intermediaries and so on and so forth. +So that's a good case in which I think an Institute of this kind can perform a very useful role which doesn't have any paternalistic undertones at all, because it will learn as much as it will teach, so to speak. +We read lot in recent days and weeks about refugees, mainly Vietnamese refugees. +Although it's a problem which has existed for a long, long time, do you do any work in connection with refugees? +Yes, we are erm particularly interested in academic refugees from the Third World. +The case of the Vietnamese refugees has highlighted a very broad problem, but within it, of course, there are number of differences and have been particularly involved in the question of people from universities and institutes in the Third World are uprooted and whose work is interrupted by political upheaval. +We've held two conferences on on erm Third World refugees of an academic kind and made proposals, some of which have had very concrete results in the form of aid from the British government to some of these groups. +We've also held a conference of a more general kind on the situation of refugees in the United Kingdom, in which a report was produced, that particularly highlighted the legal situation of the refugees, that had quite an impact among international organizations like United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, which has served as basis for a number of proposals to change the present legal regime of refugees in the UK. +There are many groups in the area who are committed to development. +Do you do anything that's relevant to them. +I think we do a lot that's relevant to local groups and, as a local boy born in Hove if I may say so, I hope erm I bear in mind local groups. +I think a lot of our research writing, directly and indirectly, provides very much the material which these groups are using — U N groups, church groups erm the Friend Centre, other local groups that are either studying development or promoting better attitudes in Britain and policies towards it. +I think I should mention we have perhaps the best library collection in Britain on developing country material, and if there is someone with a specialist need, they would be welcome to use our library. +And then our own facilities, as Carlos has already mentioned, have been used for conferences of Third World First and other development groups occasionally have met in the Institute, and of course erm our own staff and students, and indeed sometimes Third Worlders spending a period at the Institute have given local talks and participated in local meetings. +Perhaps I might just take the chance to say that if there is a local group that would like to hospitality to people from developing countries that are at the Institute, we always welcome that sort of opportunity and invitation. +Thank you very much. +Next week we shall be taking another look at education, and in particular comprehensive schools. +I shall be talking to Stephen Ball and others about their studies of the effectiveness of this approach to education. +Until next week, goodnight. +Hello. +One of the benefits of being at a university is the range of lectures that are put on each week on topics ranging from Chinese ceramics to nuclear power stations. +One lecture I recently attended and very much enjoyed was given by Doctor Norman Vance on the subject of ‘Moralistic Females and Victorian Discontents’. +Norman, how did you get interested in this as a theme? +I suspect that it started when I would read my grandmother's Sunday School prizes and my father's Sunday School prizes as a small boy. +A lot of these were books written by moralistic females; books which erm reflected various kinds of Victorian ideas, and much later on when I did some research in Oxford on Victorian literature I found a way of putting these two sorts of things together. +Who are the moralistic females you have in mind? +The moralistic female I was particularly thinking of was George Eliot, because Nietzsche, the German writer, actually complained that she was a particularly moralistic female, but I was also thinking of people like Mrs Henry Wood and Amy Le Fevre and a few others like that. +Why would a lady choose a nom de plume such as George Eliot? +Well, she was actually called Marian Evans and was looking for a masculine name to writer under. +Why exactly she chose George Eliot I can't actually think, but it's as good name as any I suppose. +Was it a symbol of her discontent as a Victorian lady? +I suppose there was an element of that in it. +I think also there was the sense that the sorts of books that a lady was expected to write were perhaps rather different from the sorts of books that a gentleman is required to write, and George Eliot had already made a name for herself as a writer of erm considerable independence of mind who, I think, wanted to be regarded as a writer, rather than as a lady novelist. +Some lady novelists were rather silly, and she herself had written a rather scathing article about silly lady novelists. +So how would George Eliot compare with, say, a lady novelist like Jane Austen? +I think that she had a broader ranger of interest than Jane Austen. +Jane Austen rather prides herself on writing on things with a fairly restricted area of interest, whereas George Eliot, on the other hand, I think is interested to write about all sorts of things. +She ranges historically as far back as the Florence of Savonarola's time in Romola, and geographically she actually encompasses themes such as Judaism in her last novel Daniel Deronda, and that, I think, you know, takes her both chronologically and geographically well beyond Jane Austen's range of interest. +In what sense is George Eliot is moralistic? +Well I'm not really sure that she is. +This was an unkind remark made about her by somebody who disliked her attitude. +She is certainly very concerned with moral themes, but I don't think that she's moralistic in the sense of hectoringly preaching at erm at an audience to do such a and not to do other certain other kinds of things. +I think that the adjective moralistic is really an unkind way of protesting at the fact that she seems to continue to be interested in moral themes which are often associated with Christianity, even if she has got rid of actual orthodox commitment to Christianity itself. +In other words, you are saying that the morality to be found in George Eliot's novels is quite different from the more conventional Christian morality that's found in other novels of that period. +I don't think that's quite what I was trying to suggest. +I was trying to suggest that instead of actually definitely writing novels with a very straightforward moral theme, the theme of the novel being that you must do this or terrible things will happen, instead of doing that erm she is anxious to write novels which show you moral possibilities, that somebody or other may actually get into difficulty because they fail to understand something about somebody else and I think that these novels are intended to tell people more about themselves that erm they might otherwise realize. +So to that extent they certainly explore moral issues; I think in a way that is not inconsistent with traditional Christian morality, but there is not attempt, I think, to thrust specific moral propositions erm, you know, down the throat of the reader erm in a way that more moralistic novels perhaps might do. +The other half of your title is ‘Victorian Discontents’. +In what sense were these female writers discontents? +Well, I think George Eliot in particular was discontented with the traditional frames of belief that she encountered in her time. +She wrote an article about evangelical Christianity, in which she complained bitterly about a particular writer, a Doctor Cumming, who she said was not merely intellectually dishonest in attempting, by slipper means, to reconcile traditional Christian belief with certain new kinds of discovery in archaeology and so on, but he was also lacking in charity and the way which he hammered everybody who didn't subscribe to his particular form of religious believe didn't seem to her to be anything to do with the true spirit of Christianity, so she was discontented with that form of Victorian religion. +Do you think that the novels that George Eliot wrote stand in their own right today? +I think so. +erm it seems to me that they are among the most important, most serious, novels that have ever been written anywhere. +Which ones would you recommend to somebody who'd never read any before? +Well, erm I think the first novel of George Eliot that I read was Adam Bede, and I think that that's actually quite a good starting point. +It's her first full-scale novel, and I think there's a lot to be said for it. +It's a simple story about village life, which nevertheless erm makes a lot of serious moral points. +A much longer, but I think much more rewarding novel in the end, is Middlemarch. +It is a very long novel; on the other hand it seems to be one of the best novels ever written, and I would strongly recommend somebody who has perhaps read a little George Eliot to go on to that. +Do you think that women write different books from men? +I think that they probably do. +erm it's difficult to erm be sure of this. +It's the sort of question that a man and a woman might very well give different answers to, but it seems to me that there are different sorts of things that erm some women tend to notice, different sorts of ideas that tend to assume prominence in the imaginations of some women, and erm to that extent I think that George Eliot's sympathy for other people, including people that she doesn't actually agree with, is perhaps a characteristic that one might tend to find more in a women novelist than in a male novelist, although I'm not sure that one can be absolutely dogmatic and say that one would never find a male novelist who could write the way that George Eliot does. +You say that these books stand in their own right, and are important perhaps in the historical context of the development of the novel, but do they constitute what I'd call a good read? +Yes, I think so. +erm there are times, perhaps, when one feels this is a little bit dull and wants to skip on for a page or two, but I suspect that that is the case with most novels that one would want to read nowadays. +erm I think that, you know, some bits of the book are actually funny; some bits of it erm are touching; some bits are exciting, and these are the elements, I would have thought, of a good read in any age. +Could you give me an example of any nice passage in Adam Bede or Middlemarch to whet our appetites? +I think my one of my favourite passages in Adam Bede might be the description near the beginning of the novel of the methodist preacher, Diner, addressing a meeting of villagers and instead of giving you the entire speech, word for word, George Eliot gives you a little bit of what she said and then describes the manner in which she said it, and the manner in which it was actually received. +That seems to me to be a very moving description of somebody who is preaching to people, not from any sense of superiority, but rather from a sense of human concern and caring about the people that she is addressing, and this makes the way in which George Eliot writes about her very different from the way in which other methodist preachers have been described either as ranters, erm or as people who are so caught up in what they are saying themselves that the fail to make any pay any attention to the people that they are addressing. +So that, I think, is one of my favourite moments in Adam Bede. +How does the treatment of women in her books compare with the treatment of women, say, in books by Hardy. +Is she more sympathetic to the woman's position in society? +Difficult to say. +erm in many ways I think she is. +One strange thing about her books is that they nearly all tend to be set a little bit back in the past, so that the position of the women that she is describing and the society in which she is describing them isn't quite what's actually going on a the time she's writing. +erm she is, on the whole, very sympathetic to most of the people that she writes about. +I think one of my difficulties with Adam Bede is that she begins to lose interest a little bit in the figure of the beautiful, but not actually very bright, village girl, whose seduction is an important part of the story, and by the end of the book we feel that she's actually bored with Hettie, isn't really concerned any longer to explore Hettie's own sufferings as the other woman who has been badly treated by the rascally gentleman. +So, she can, I think, have certain failures of sympathy for female characters. +On the other hand, I think she is much less inclined to make her women examples of some particular sociological or historical development, which I think is Hardy's temptation all the time. +So many of Hardy's girls are people who've had a little bit of education, and who are somehow or other caught between traditional ways and modern ways, and I think one has the feeling that Hardy is more interested in the sociologically transitional status of the people he's writing about than he is interested in them as people. +I don't think George Eliot tends to make that sort of mistake. +Switching, if I may, from Victorian novelists to more contemporary novelists, who do you think are good novelists of today? +I think erm my two, or perhaps three, favourite novelists for today would be William Golding, Graham Greene and Iris Murdoch, and it seems to me that at least part of their importance is that they are really concerned with moral themes, as George Eliot was, even though, like George Eliot, they are shy about forcing a particular moral down the throat of a reader. +Would The Spire by William Golding be a good example of what you had in mind? +Yes, I would I would think so. +erm The Spire is erm a symbol that has a lot of meanings attached to it, and it's finally a book not about the building of a spire, but about a particular obsession in an individual human being, about the ideas that a man might have about ways of doing great things, which might actually be ideas that are rooted in some sort of self-deception. +This, it seems to me, is a them that is of abiding significance, because we all of us do things for the wrong reasons, and yet it's all rather magnificently tied up with the attempt to build a glorious spire to a medieval cathedral. +My last question is simply this. +Supposing that I were to ask you to recommend a good, modern book to read, and I don't mean good in the sense of morally uplifting, but perhaps more in the sense of exciting or interesting reading. +What would you suggest? +I think a book that I have recently read and greatly enjoyed was, in fact, Graham Greene's The Honorary Consul, which is now available in paperback. +That seemed to me to be a very good read, a serious book. +It's got spies in it, so that it's got certain contemporary interest, but erm that did seem to me to be a very fine and very moving novel, which I'd strongly recommend. +Thank you very much, Norman. +Next week I shall be talking to Professor Max Clews all about computers and the human mind. +Are we about to be taken over by the machine? +Until next week, goodbye. +Hello. +This is another programme in our series from the university, in which we share with you news and views concerning activities that are going on here. +In these programmes we're talking with people in the community who have particular contacts with us, and Graham Mayhew, who is my guest today, is a particularly good example of somebody who has contact with us at all sorts of different levels. +Graham, I want to start by asking you about you being mayor. +You look far too young to be a mayor, but you've just finished being Mayor of Lewes. +Yes, I was the youngest ever Mayor of Lewes by a clear ten years. +I'm the only one who's ever been mayor in his twenties, and I think that came about probably because the family had been in the town since the beginning of the century erm and I'd been involved in local politics since about eight or nine, taking numbers on polling stations and so on, and so when I got elected to the Council I think one or two people at any rate felt that it was quite natural that I should have the opportunity fairly soon. +And so you were the youngest ever Mayor of Lewes? +Yes. +The previous youngest was thirty eight when he took over, and I was twenty eight. +Well that's, as you say, a record by ten years. +Did you actually enjoy being Mayor? +Oh yes, I mean it's tremendous fun, actually, because it's one of those jobs which you can make more or less whatever you want out of. +And providing you're sort of enthusiastic enough and you actually put the time in and the effort, then people respond. +What are the things that you introduced that were different from previous mayors? +Last year was the centenary of the Borough Charters, so on the one hand I was trying to restore the traditions of the thing — erm we tried to reintroduce some of the pomp and ceremonial — and then on the other hand I felt that the mayoralty often didn't seem terribly relevant to people of my generation, and so I tried to involve a lot of young people in various activities and the offshoot of that has been a Youth Advisory Committee which I've set up, which at the moment is in the process of trying to negotiate with the County Council for some premises to try and increase the sort of Youth Club type evening provision in the town. +Well my son, Andrew, was involved with some of these discussions, so what I didn't learn first hand myself I learned second hand from him. +I think that's an absolutely excellent idea to involve younger people. +Do you regard your efforts in that direction as being successful? +Well, it's really too early to say. +I think it's been successful in trying to break down barriers a bit. +I think at least some of the representatives — the head boy and girl and deputy head boy of Priory School, and some of the people from Ringmer School and so on— at least have contact now on a fairly regular basis with local councillors, local council officials and so on . +I think it enables the young people that have been coming to those meetings to find out too the problems that Councillors and Local Authorities have in actually trying to carry out the sort of things they want. +For example on the building that we're talking about shifting, first of all we've got to find a site for the thing, then we've got to get planning permission, then we've got to get the actual permission of the owner of the land, then we've got to make sure that erm electricity's laid on, that there's water laid on, that there's some sort of toilet or other facilities and so on, and when you add all that up it's quite a complicated sort of series of bureaucratic procedures you've got to go through and it's not a question of, you know, of people saying to us as Councillors well, you know, do this for us and we can magic it out in six months out of thin air _ there's an awful lot of paperwork that's got to be gone through and an awful lot of people to see and an awful lot of red tape, really, to get through first — I mean just to make sure that the thing's safe and complies with health and safety standards — and that's something which you have to get across to young people and if they're involved in the actual discussions on this and involved in the organisation, they begin to see the complexities and they're less inclined, I think, to automatically assume that erm people aren't on their side and don't want to listen. +And of course Lewes is a small enough town that it's possible for ordinary people to be involved in central activities like Council activities and so on. +Yes, I think it's a small enough town for people to get to know who their representatives are, to get to know each other, to get to know who runs which societies and organizations in the town, and that creates a sort of area of communal feeling that you don't get in a place that's, say, five or six times as big. +You know, Lewes is about the right sort of size for that, people don't get too much on top of each other, but at least they can find their way around. +I know that you're an historian by profession. +Did this allow you to reintroduce, rediscover old traditions in Lewes that had been lost? +Yes, I mean I run a series for one of the local newspapers on past Lewes mayors and the amount of work that I had to do for that meant that I picked up all sorts of pieces of information about what other mayors had tried in the past, and things that had been successful and things that had been disasters, and as it was the centenary I went to a lot of trouble to look up exactly what had happened a hundred years ago and to try and recreate the ceremonial connected with that, and then when we elected erm two people honourary freeman of the town I got in all of the other mayors from Sussex, asked them to come along with their robes and mace bearers and so on, and we had this very sort of grand ceremonial procession in the Assembly Hall, which was sort of packed out with about four hundred people. +My only regret on that particular occasion now is that I didn't organise properly getting it videotaped, because it would have been a nice thing to keep, but as far as I could I kept to the traditions of mayoral ceremonial on those sorts of occasions. +Lewes has only had a mayor or two for a hundred years, and so its ceremonial is somewhat new, but one was able to draw on the traditions in places like Rye, where it goes back to the thirteenth/fourteenth centuries, and erm I used some of the phraseologies out of sixteenth century Rye documents and so on in my Lewes mayoralty on these sorts of ceremonial occasions, and introduced some of the ceremonial which I knew was authentic to mayoralties elsewhere in Sussex. +And I think it sort of paid off in making people feel in the town during the year that they had a mayor, that the ceremonial actually meant something and related to them, and certainly I still find tremendous numbers of people who sort of come along and invite you to things — people who before would have probably said ‘Oh it's a waste of money’, and I think we did quite a lot to change that attitude. +Why is it that mayors only existed in Lewes for a hundred years seeing it's such an old town? +Primarily because the town's basically of Saxon foundation. +It's sort of grid iron pattern streets on the south side of the High Street; on the north side that's all disrupted by the castle and, as far as one can tell, when the town and the area around it, the Rape of Lewes, was ceded to William De Warren, most of the local powers of the Town Council such as it was were taken away and subverted and the town became a minorial borough and although it sent Members of Parliament to Westminster from the end of the thirteenth century, it only had a very sort of ramshackle corporation, because the lords of the manor of Lewes kept control fairly tightly on what the town was actually allowed to do and on its internal freedoms. +Although there was a sort of medieval corporation, it didn't have a Royal Charter and so in the end of the seventeenth century it was somewhat subverted, and really there was no proper town government to speak of until the beginning of the nineteenth century with the Borough Commissioners and then later on with the Mayor and Corporation which was set up in eighteen eighty one. +Well you've obviously studied your local history very closely, and I believe you actually run local history classes, don't you? +Yes, I've got four going at the moment, actually . +It's rather ludicrous really. +I've got one in Battle on Tudor Battle, all about the dissolution of Battle Abbey and erm what happened to the town afterwards; one on Elizabethan Rye, which is erm was notable because it was the largest place in Sussex at the time, a very important port, a lot of trade for London went through Rye, and there's a lot of stuff relating to piracy and erm warfare. +For example, in fifteen fifty seven/eight, when Queen Mary lost Calais to the French, the income of the town corporation doubled in that year from three hundred pounds to six hundred, and that's entirely because they pulled in awful lot of French boats and then charged them all a lot of ransom money before they sent them back to France. +So that sort of thing's quite fun. +erm I've got courses in Eastbourne and erm a course in Brighton, on medieval stained glass in fact. +I've always enjoyed teaching _ it's something which I feel is very important for someone who's an historian. +I don't like just doing research without communicating it, and I think if you've got an interest and you can communicate it well to people, then it stimulates their enjoyment and of course in a time when there's going to have to be more and more leisure I think that's very important. +And you're doing these courses under the gist of the Centre for Continuing Education at the university? +Yes, that's right. +I mean the second main paymaster of myself, you know, is the university, in fact, and erm without them I don't suppose I could have sort of financed the extra side of sort of clothing and everything else for my mayoralty. +And do I understand that there's a day school planned in the near future? +Yes, I've got a day school on December the fourth. +It's a Saturday. +It's all day from ten o'clock to about five. +We're going to be looking at Lewes in the period during the late middle ages, early modern period, when it had an unchartered corporation, how the town was governed and so on. +We're going to be looking at the contrast between that and places like Rye, which did have a chartered corporation, and we're going to be looking at sort of trade, at the effects of epidemics on the town, erm and so on. +I think it should be great fun. +And you don't have to have a history degree to come along to one of these things? +No, we don't expect any background knowledge at all. +And details can be got from the Centre for Continuing Education at the university. +I'm sure if anyone wrote in they would be sent an appropriate form. +That's right, yes. +How much does it cost? +I think it's six pounds fifty for the erm for the day. +They have to buy their own lunch in the university refectory, but that's an experience in itself, so anybody who wants to come and play student for the day, it's great fun. +Well that's sounds something to recommend for that December Saturday. +Looking at other aspects of your life and work, you're official history activities are with the East Sussex Record Office at Pelham House. +That's right, yes. +I run the search room there, which means that erm people come into Pelham House, they usually meet me at a desk and the end of a telephone, and I put them onto the documents that they want to look at and I make sure that they're ordered up from where they're kept in one of the various repositories and strong rooms that we've got. +Then I produce them for them and erm if they need any help reading them and so on I give them that. +And are most of the documents in Sussex now kept in the East Sussex Record Office? +Well the two Record Offices for Sussex — there's the East Sussex one, under the East Sussex County Council in Lewes, and the West Sussex Record Office at Chichester. +An increasing number of official documents are being kept at Record Offices. +All of the Parish Registers for the various East Sussex parishes are now held, with one exception, at Lewes. +erm all of the Local Authority records, as far as we've been able to get them in, are held there. +We're trying at the moment to get in non-conformist church records, or at least to get copies of them if the churches don't want to let us have them, because they're quite important for the nineteenth century history of East Sussex, and erm really any help that we can get from the general public who've got old documents relating to their properties, minutes of any organisation that they've been involved in, or that used to exist and that's now collapsed, anything like that that can add to the history of the county we're always very grateful to receive. +And again, the Record Office is something that lay folk can just come in an look up books and ask questions if they wish to? +Yes, it's open Mondays to Fridays, from quarter to nine through to quarter to five, and anyone can just walk in and we'll do our best to help them produce whatever it is they want to see, providing we've got it and we can find it. +Well I've actually spent some hours in the Record Office, I don't think while you've been there, erm doing a bit of ancestor hunting, so I am familiar with your work and activities. +Yes, well anybody can come in and trace their family, so long as they know that they came from Sussex at some point and they've got something to work on, they've got some idea of which town or which village they came from, then usually the Parish Registers and things like the Census Returns over the last hundred years are usually able to help them. +One other contact that I think you have with us is that you sing in the Meeting House Choir. +Well, yes. +I haven't actually managed to make it yet this term because of all the teaching preparation I've been doing, but erm I've done that for the last two years and erm it's been quite an important activity because it enabled me, after I came back down to Lewes, to help to get to know a few people in the university and to sort of expand my contacts, and the Meeting House is one of those places which is open to the general public on Sundays for religious worship. +There's a Catholic service at half past ten and an inter-denominational one at half past eleven. +There is a choir which produces things — various medieval and erm renaissance and eighteenth century anthems and so on, and they do a Christmas carol service and so on — and it's really quite I find it quite nice to come to, because it doesn't have the sort of narrow denominationalism that many of the local churches have. +You've got experience of being at two other universities. +You did your undergraduate work at York and then you did a doctorate at Oxford. +How do you find Sussex compares with those two? +Well, it's difficult really. +erm architecturally I suppose it doesn't compare with a medieval university. +I liked York very much, because it was set round a lake and it was the first one I went to, but I must say of the other modern universities that I know I would say that Sussex was erm was the other best one that I've been to and the one that I felt most comfortable and happy. +Thank you very much, Graham. +Next week we shall have another member of the local community as our guest. +Until next week, then, goodbye. +Hello. +This is another in our series from the university, in which I shall be discovering from people in the wider community what they know about us and what the points of contact are between the university and them. +This week I have with me Meg Braga, a friend, and a lady of many interests and talents who is thoroughly involved in the local community. +Meg, I think the first time I met you was when you brought a party of visitors from the British Council here, is that right? +Yes, that was some time ago when I was working as a hostess with the British Council and used to collect meet VIPs at the station and bring them here to the university. +And that was when the university was very much on the British Council circuit. +Do you think that still happens? +I imagine it must do, yes. +It's an absolutely fascinating thing to do, because they always have so much to offer — the people who are visiting from abroad — you learn an awful lot about them. +Another point of contact that I know that you have, actually, is through the Brighton Festival Chorus. +mhm. +The Brighton Festival Chorus rehearses here, doesn't it, at the university? +Yes, we have done since the beginning, about erm twelve/thirteen years ago. +And Lazlo Heltai , who used to be the Director of Music at the university, still is the Director of the Brighton Festival Chorus. +Yes, he's our conductor. +Absolutely marvellous person. +We're very, very fortunate, I think, in being able to use the university facilities here because they really are ideal. +We've been to most of the lecture theatres. +At the moment we're in the biology lecture theatre and it's tremendous fun to be able to come all together like this. +It's an ideal place too for those who come from Brighton and Lewes and the surrounding areas. +Tell me about the Brighton Festival Chorus itself. +I'm not sure that people know very much about it. +How long has it been going +I think it was sixty nine that we started. +I think Lazlo introduced this, to us, very refreshing sort of sound that he wanted to achieve and we were able at the beginning to quite take people by surprise with this what was described as a young, fresh sound, and we did quite a number of recordings. +Then, fortunately, the middle of the seventies, we were able to link up with the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra, and now, in fact, most of our concerts are done in London with the Royal Phil. +at the Royal Festival Hall. +It grew originally out of the actual Brighton Festival. +That's right, yes, and we still do one, perhaps two, concerts a year in Brighton at the Festival, but then we were able to develop from there, which has been a tremendous erm thrill for everybody. +And it's certainly been marvellous to come and listen to it, as I have been one of your loyal supporters over many years. +Yes, I know, mhm. +And it's been marvellous to keep going. +You've been abroad quite a lot, haven't you, with the chorus. +Is it have you got any great trips lined up now — Athens? +. +Well our lovely trip was to Athens last year, yes, erm when we did the Britten's War Requiem beneath the Acropolis in the old amphitheatre there and that was an experience that we'll all remember, and then previously we went to Lisbon, which was very exciting — it was a completely different sort of experience. +Of course at the university you do your rehearsals, but the contact is greater than that. +There must be quite a number of members from the university who are in the chorus. +Oh yes, that's right. +I mean there's a strong Music Department here and we have a number of music students who come into the chorus for the while that they're in the university — they often sing in the university choir, I think, as well and play in the orchestra, or perhaps the Meeting House Choir, and a number of members of faculty, I think, as well sing with us. +Is it possible for students to sing with you, or are they here for too short a time? +No, I'm sure that they that so long as they pass the audition they are always welcome. +We're very glad of them. +Another point of contact is the New Sussex Opera Group. +You are now one of the committee member and the certainly put on productions in Lewes, but also at the Gardner Centre. +Here again, there must be a fair number of university people that are involved in one way and another? +Yes, I think that's inevitable to some extent. +The academic, intellectual types also have a cultural background and are interested in aspects of the arts, and erm we are very fortunate, I think, also in that people are able to give more time than perhaps business people, and so a number of the members of the committee are university people and we are able to use the Gardner Arts Centre, which has become quite an exciting area, in that it's open to experimental production, so therefore we attract a lot of the London critics. +What's the next production that you have lined up for? +Well that's quite soon. +That's the Threepenny Opera, Bertolt Brecht. +And when's that going to be on? +That's the last week in November, the twentieth, that week. +And that's not really opera, it's theatre, musical theatre, and we're experimenting quite considerably with the theatre in that case and doing it almost in the round. +Oh, that's very interesting. +So there'll be a change round of the the staging and seating and so on. +Yes, yes, yes. +It's interesting how, although the Gardner Centre was built as a theatre that was very flexible in terms of seating, it's not used all that often, is it? +No, no, but I think that the present producer has seen it's potential and is going to explore it much more fully. +mhm. +Who is the producer of the ? +Peter Reynolds this time. +Yes. +mhm. +We employ a number of professional producers and this time Peter — he's a very experienced drama teacher — and he is working with Julian Elloway, who is a local musician. +Oh Julian, of course, was at Sussex. +That's right. +Again and again we find this link. +Yes. +And what are you actually doing? +I know you've got some responsibility with this opera. +Well I'm not on stage this time, I'm going to have a go with the costumes. +Oh, well something to look forward to. +Another point of contact I know that you have is erm through the Town Gown Club. +This is an organization that listeners may not realize, which meets probably a couple of times a term, and which members of the university and people outside community meet, have some supper together, perhaps, and actually hear some talks, either from people inside the university or outside, about topics of current interest. +We've got one coming up this term given by John Maynard-Smith about whether Darwin is still true in this day and age or not. +You've come to a number of those I guess? +Yes, I have over the years. +I think it's a very useful point of contact, because there are areas in which there are obviously differences, different styles of life, different ways of life, different erm time commitments, and it's very good that this something that tries to bridge the gap. +It's very helpful for both sides of the community, I'm sure, to have contact like this and I think that the programme is usually very well devised in that you do have something either of mutual interest or one area and then the other area so that we can be informed about erm what's going on in the other section of the community. +I know you're also very much involved with social work generally. +What are you actually doing at the moment? +Well, I help in general areas in Lewes within the community. +The thing that's really helped enormously recently has been the Phoenix Centre and the development of the Phoenix Centre, and there's room there for a lot of volunteers to work in various capacities. +Also the project that has hit the news quite a bit recently is the talking newspaper for the blind. +Our present mayoress of Lewes, Mavis Askew, who's done a sterling work as secretary of this new association, and that's a very worthwhile project, and I believe she works in the library here. +Do you find any of my colleagues involved in that? +I'm sorry to say I don't, no, but I very rarely find anybody from the university, with one exception — Homeless in Sussex, I think there are two or three people there. +But I don't know quite why it is — maybe that's one area where I do find there's a bit of segregation, or maybe it's just that people don't have the time available, but it's a different sector of the community who are working with the basic things like helping the old and the infirm more, just being able to give cups of coffee to people, or chatting to them, or visiting them, or whatever. +Well that's an awful shame that we're not involved in that. +I may be completely wrong. +I mean this is just the areas that I've touched on, and again it's in many cases it's only fringe. +When we were talking just now before the programme started I think you said that you weren't sure that you'd had a great deal of contact with the university one way or another, but surely you've been surrounded by university people? +mhm. +You've lived in Brighton and you've lived in Kingston, and now you live in Lewes. +All these areas are absolutely fully of university types and you can scarcely help but bump into them all the time. +mhm. +How do you think they're fitted in generally? +My personal observations I can make a comment on, for example, the cultural area. +I think that what happens in a place like erm Kingston, or a place like Lewes from my observation is that the general aspirations, the pretensions, change. +Lewes and Kingston area are very different from Brighton where everything is very commercially based and rather materialistic. +I think perhaps it's the influence of the university that makes a town like Lewes perhaps erm the aspirations may be more intellectual or cultural. +You notice more book shops. +Generally the whole level changes. +Can you see any disadvantages of the university being here? +I don't have enough contact to be able to say the disadvantages. +I think in a community one does come across practical snags, like for example the differences become very marked between the businessman who goes off at eight in the morning and comes back at six, week in week out, year in year out, with perhaps sort of three or four weeks holiday, and the university men who appear to be around an awful lot of the time and appear to have a lot of holiday. +Probably both sides are not well enough informed about what's going on on the other side. +One doesn't realize that there's a lot of research to be done or ruminating time, or whatever, and so that can be an area of misunderstanding or it can build up unfortunate prejudices. +I think, actually, from the university point of view it's a job which is very ill-defined in terms of time. +It's very difficult to reduce it. +Some people reduce it to a sort of nine to five or a nine to six type job, but I think many of us feel it's so totally open-ended we're never quite sure when we ought to start and we're never quite sure when we ought to finish. +And of course we only spend a minority of our time actually teaching. +The rest of the time we are supposed to be thinking these big thoughts +mhm. +and doing the research +mhm. +and so on, so I'm not surprised that people have these ideas about us. +erm yes, to some extent. +It's easier for someone who has a timetable laid out for them very clearly during the day. +They don't have to make those initial decisions of how to plan their time and their work. +As a university member, I think the thing I would most like to have happen is to be accepted as an ordinary person in the place I live and the people I meet with. +Do you think there are features associated with university types of the kind that I'm worried about? +They do tend to be labelled, yes. +I mean I'm speaking of someone whose work is of a different kind, and they do tend to be labelled probably because they seem to be around a lot, and obviously have some political influence on the area. +I don't know how far people can be integrated, because to the businessman it appears that the businessman is dealing with the nitty gritty of life and the responsibilities of every day life and the university man is someone who is detached from them, maybe the ivory tower sort of pictures still holds true. +I think that probably is true to some extent. +Do you have any sort of tangible suggestions as to ways in which university people could actually become more part of the community? +Well is there any point in anybody trying to be what they're not? +I think you've just got to live the way of life as you find it. +I'm not suggesting for a moment that university people aren't as integrated as anyone else. +I think one of the fallacies erm that you touched on is this question of political bias. +I am sure that the wider world think of us as all being terribly left wing, whereas in fact we're awfully liberal and conservative and with a spectrum distribution of political allegiances which I suspect are very little different from the community as a whole. +Yes, I'm sure what you say is true and, knowing as many people as we are privileged and glad to know, I agree with you that there is a wide spectrum, but it's always the case that the vociferous ones are the ones that set the tone, and often in wrong light. +Thank you very much, Meg, for talking to me. +Perhaps I should say a little bit more about the Phoenix Centre for the benefit of those of you who are unfamiliar with Lewes. +It's actually a multi-purpose building, located in the centre of town, and used for all sorts of purposes, for all sections of the community. +It's run by the Social Services Department, but it also relies heavily on contributions and voluntary help from local people. +Next week I shall be talking with Graham Mayhew, who has recently completed a period in office as Mayor of Lewes. +Well, that's all that we have time for today. +Until next week, then, goodbye. +Hello. +Today I have with me two ladies who have embarked on a career in science. +Pam Murphy has recently enrolled as a postgraduate student in experimental physics, and Carol Wallis, having got a degree and a postgraduate degree at Cambridge, and taught in various places, is now working as a Research Fellow in biochemistry at the university. +It does seem to me that there are still relatively few women who become professional scientists, and today I hope that you two ladies will help me explore perhaps some of the reasons why this is the case. +But first, Pam, how did you get into physics in the first place? +My father's a physicist and my mum's a science teacher, and although at school I was interested in all things, most subjects, erm I think maths and physics came particularly easily to me. +Since I was becoming a scientist they encouraged me +Yes. +to do that. +And, Carol, did you have the advantage of that sort of background too? +My mother, too, was a science teacher and I was good at science, and I always continued with that line because partly of the family background and partly of my own interests. +So what came first, your own interests or your family's encouragement to go into science I wonder? +Very difficult to decide. +I think the two go along together. +Did you find this difficult to do at school? +Did you go to the sort of school where it was made easy to go into science, or did you go to the sort of school where nice girls did the arts or something quite different? +No, in my school it was very easy to go into science. +I went to a co-educational school and I was not aware of any pressure for girls to go into arts and boys into science. +I found it very easy to go into the science sixth and nobody suggested that it wasn't a ladylike thing to do. +And how about you, Pam, were you fortunate at school too? +Oh yes, erm I went to a comprehensive co-educational school and found exactly the same thing. +Let's move on a little bit to university, perhaps. +Did you find that at Oxford, Pam, there were many other girls doing physics? +No, there I started to notice that there were a lot more men than women in the lectures erm +And did that make it harder for you to do physics? +Not at all, no. +By that time I'd really stopped noticing whether people are male or female and just got on with the physics. +mhm. +How about at Cambridge? +Did you have a feeling that you were alone? +There are rather more women, I think, that go into chemistry on the whole, aren't there, than perhaps physics, and certainly engineering. +Yes, and of course biology. +I was doing zoology and botany as well as biochemistry and chemistry. +Oh yes. +And there were a fair number, though of course the numbers of women at Cambridge are, or at that time were, very low. +I mean now there are more mixed colleges. +mhm. +The proportions are different, but I think when I was there there was one woman to every eleven men, so that even in the arts subjects there were a lot more men than women. +But it certainly never bothered me, or didn't make any difference to one's work. +Certainly statistically, then, many more men on science. +mhm. +Do you think there are any disadvantages? +The apparatus is built for people over six foot tall . +I can't reach most of it . +That's pretty fair, yes. +I haven't come across any disadvantages yet. +So you don't think you're going to have any problems in your career by having sort of the men getting the juicier jobs or dominating you in any sense? +I hope not. +I don't think so. +Well you, of course, Carol, are a little bit further down the line. +You've got rather more experience than Pam and you have taught at — it was Queen Elizabeth College you taught at? +Yes, that's right. +And in the States as well? +erm no, I was doing research in the States. +You did research in the States. +mhm. +You've done some teaching at Sussex. +How do you feel about your career as a chemist or biochemist, as a woman as well? +Well I don't think that it's primarily being a woman that affected my career. +What affected my career was having children, which immediately means that you can't devote the amount of time to your career as you can if you don't have other responsibilities, and the reason that I'm now a Research Fellow here, and I work part-time — only eighty per cent of the time — is because of trying to tie in one's responsibilities as a mother with those as a scientist, and this has obvious effects. +At the present time jobs are not easy to come by, and if you're on permanent, or rather short-term contracts renewed all the time this makes a difference to where you can get to compared with a man with the equivalent training. +But I think that being a woman never affected what I was doing, it was having children which did that. +And that's an obvious erm fact of life, if you like, that you really can't get round in any practical way. +No, I think that all women in all jobs, and particularly in professional jobs, have this problem that at a time when you should be doing your perhaps your most original work, building up your reputation, then you're also tied up with problems of looking after children. +But unless you hand them over to somebody else completely, which most people don't feel is a very satisfactory arrangement, you're left with that problem. +There's no way round it. +I have been able to continue doing research, which I enjoy very much, and I think it's worked out very well. +And presumably there are rewards in having children anyway, as a women, quite apart from +Oh yes. +the other effects. +Yes, I mean it would be nice if it was possible, you know, after having taken time out, or some time out, over a period to be able to get back into a more permanent career structure, but maybe in the future this'll come. +Yes. +At the moment there are difficulties for everybody. +Do you think you say there are difficulties for everyone, are you aware of any way in which erm men make it difficult for you, as a women, in a career sense? +Not really, no. +I've always found the men that I've worked with either it has made no difference that I was a woman so far as I was aware, or else they've been very helpful. +I mean I've certainly been very much helped in the time at Sussex when I've been working part time by the men that I've worked with +mhm. +in making it possible for me to do part-time research. +What sort of physics are you actually going to do. +What sort of research project are you going to do, Pam? +I'm going to look at what happens to helium at low temperatures, and in particular I'm going to see what it does when it's stuck onto carbon, which it will do very readily. +So it's really something at very low temperatures, and it's a bit of fundamental physics research. +Are there theories which describe what might happen? +Yes, there are theories at to what happens at well the temperature's in fact just about as low as you can get. +What, just a fraction of a degree above absolute zero? +Yes, yes, that sort of thing. +And we have a very large low temperature group in physics at the university, don't we? +It's one of the major places of low temperature research in the country. +Yes, that's why I came here . +And that's why you came here, indeed. +How about your particular research interests, Carol? +Well at the moment I'm working on the mechanism action of vitamin B twelve dependent enzymes. +In fact the enzyme that I work with is a bacterial enzyme. +It's simpler to obtain large amounts of it and one hopes that if one finds out something of the mechanism through this enzyme one would be able to apply it to other enzymes dependent upon the same coenzyme. +This will have an application ultimately, perhaps, to treatment of anaemia in people, although I know you're working large on bacteria? +Not not directly. +The treatment of anaemia is more concerned with the uptake of the co-ential vitamin than what it does when it gets to it's site of action. +Let's talk about what you ladies to when you're not actually being scientists. +I've labelled you very strongly a scientist. +Pam, you used to do a lot of rowing, didn't you, at Oxford? +Yes, coxing. +Did you, where did you cox? +Well in my second year I coxed one of the women's university boats against well underneath the famous Sue Brown. +That took up an awful lot of time in my second year, although it was good fun. +We raced against Cambridge at Henley. +Did you? +Yes. +Did you win? +No, we lost. +Oh well, never mind. +. +But it was worth it. +And I also know that you spent a summer on rather a long walk. +In fact, you walked from Lands End to John O'Groats. +Now why did you do that? +Well, I went with a friend from university and we both enjoyed walking and in particular we enjoyed walking from one place to another place, and last summer was the only last long break either of us would ever really have and erm +How long did it take you? +we spent it walking. +Ten weeks. +Ten weeks. +And where did you stay? +We carried a tent, which we used mostly. +We stayed in a few bed and breakfasts when we thought we needed a wash, and a few youth hostels. +Did you find it very difficult? +Did you find you feet were covered with blisters? +erm not blisters, no. +My feet just got battered. +They I think they got about twenty per cent bigger . +Did you discover a lot of Britain you didn't think existed? +Oh, yes. +Scotland in particular was beautiful. +We saw herds of stags and although we never actually walked for a day when we didn't see anyone else, there was a week of walking when we only saw one other person for every day. +You just got the feeling of such complete isolation and wilderness. +It's beautiful. +mhm. +And, Carol, I suppose your spare time activities are largely taken up with your family these days? +Yes, yes, they are. +I'm hoping to get them walking. +How old are your children now? +Well the elder is thirteen at the end of the week, and the younger one is ten. +And erm are they going to become are they boys or girls? +They're both girls. +Now are they going to be chemists? +Well I think they both have a scientific sort of mind. +The elder one is particularly interested in science and I shouldn't be at all surprised if they don't become scientists +mhm. +although I wouldn't push them into it. +I think this is something which everybody has to work out for themselves. +I'd encourage them. +mhm. +Well I think you two ladies are very fortunate, and you obviously have come from homes that have encouraged you very much, and have come from schools that have encouraged you very much. +erm but I would say, on the whole, my guess is that there are many girls that perhaps could go into science and could make contributions to science but don't do so simply because their families don't understand it and the schools don't support them. +Do you think that's fair? +It's so hard to say when all along the line I've been encouraged. +mhm. +Of course I can only say from my own experience. +Yes and one can imagine that it might be like that, but of course the women that we meet at university are those who have become scientists very often. +I think it's true to say that, certainly at my school, about the age of fourteen of fifteen the girls suddenly decide that they can't do maths and there's no way that they could understand anything scientific, but that, I think, is a lot deeper than just encouragement at school anyway. +Maths is absolutely the fundamental stumbling block, isn't it, in a sense? +If you can do maths you can probably do most of the rest +Yes. +I feel and people get very emotional about maths. +They suddenly, whether they're boys or girls, they suddenly decide sometime in their teens perhaps they can't do it. +It's not because it's the tool of, well, physics anyway and engineering, it's because you have to think in a way that is probably entirely foreign to you. +It's not like reading a story, which you have been doing because you're a child and you read children's stories in which you have people and things, it's about entirely abstract ideas and +And it's whole new language which is unfamiliar, perhaps? +Yes, and a whole new way of thinking about doing abstract things with abstract ideas, which probably at that age you suddenly realize it is abstract and, help, you suddenly can't do it any more. +And so far as I can tell, you know, from looking at my children's schooling, the girls seem to be good at maths in the early stages. +On the whole the girls are ahead of the boys, so this is a change that occurs in the teens. +Well maybe they will follow their mother into chemistry or biochemistry too. +Thank you very much erm Pamela and Carol. +That's all that we have time for on this subject today. +Next week we're going to start a new twelve part series on opportunities in education, in which we shall be looking at various aspects of schools today. +Do we have too much education? +Are we teaching the right subjects in the right way at the right time? +Could parents do more to help their children in school? +These are some of the issues that we shall be exploring. +For details of the series look in the Radio Times or get a list of the programmes, either from Radio Brighton or by writing to me, Doctor Brian Smith at the Physics Building in the university. +I hope that you'll join us next week. +Goodbye. +university this term, at least so far as the community is concerned, is our Open Day on Saturday June the fourteenth. +On that day, everyone and anyone is invited to visit the campus to see what we do here. +One of the features of the day will be a series of mini-lectures on just about every conceivable subject, and during the next few Ideas in Action programmes, I shall be talking to some of the lecturers about their topics and, hopefully, whetting your appetites sufficiently to want to join us on June the fourteenth to hear more. +I have with me today Ian Miles, who's a Senior Fellow in the Science Policy Research Unit and an expert in unemployment, that is to say you're not unemployed yourself, but you study people who are. +I have done, yes. +Welcome, Ian. +First of all, is high unemployment here to stay do you think? +This is a topic which, of course, generates considerable argument and passion. +My own belief is that we have had a sea change in the nature of employment in Britain and in other western societies. +Certainly, some unemployment now is a result of depressed demand. +erm there are a lot of social needs that remain unmet, and meeting those needs would generate more employment, but in many areas of the economy I don't think there's so much need for work as there has been in the past, especially as we're applying new technologies that increase productivity dramatically. +We can be producing the same quantity of electronics goods, of many household appliances and so on, with many fewer workers than have been used in past. +So I think there's a change in the amount of work that's going to be required in our society. +Whether this means high unemployment depends partly on how this work is distributed; whether we keep the same working hours that we've had in the past, for example, whether we work for as many years. +If we do keep up our past patterns then I think that inevitably means high unemployment is here to stay. +We tend to talk about unemployment in terms of purely economic factors; +mhm. +what it does to our economy, whether people can afford this that and the other, but surely it has quite a considerable social impact on people's lives being unemployed? +Yes. +This is, in fact, exactly the topic that I'm going to be addressing in my lecture on the Open Day. +I've been doing research that's been inspired by the work of Marie Hoader, who's Emeritus Professor at the university, a social psychologist, and she had researched unemployment back in the nineteen thirties; she studied an Austrian village called Mariental , where practically everybody was unemployed, and late in the nineteen seventies as our group began raising questions about the future of work, she engaged in a review of the research between the thirties and the seventies to see if things had changed. +Now the economic circumstances of unemployed people we know have changed a lot. +erm we have a welfare state, which erm ensures that very few people are living at absolute poverty — you do have shoes to wear, you do have some sort of food to eat — which wasn't necessarily the case in the nineteen thirties — and people have had different education and training, their lives are very different. +So you'd expect there to be a big change in the social impacts of unemployment. +In fact, she found in her review that there seemed to be a great of continuity, that again and again over these forty years researchers were reporting similar sorts of social and psychological impacts of unemployment. +It was having the same sorts of mainly damaging effects on people's personal lives and on their family lives and so on, and in research that I carried out in Brighton erm over the past three or four years we were looking at these effects — how they were affecting unemployed people in Brighton — and trying to explain them. +If it isn't just the money problems of unemployment, what is it? +Let's have a look at some of the features that are associated with being unemployed. +First of all, presumably, you lose your normal time structure of having to go off and do something on a regular basis. +Yes, that's right. +That's a very important feature of being unemployed. +erm employed people have a regular activity erm on a daily basis, and that activity is carried out with a time structure, so that the hours of the day are different from each other, the days of the week are marked out as being different from each other , the weeks are marked out by being different from each other as well , and also you're situated in time in a different way — you're on some sort of career, you can see some way in which your life is progressing. +erm and this tends to disappear when you're unemployed. +Although people sometimes think of unemployment as having lots of leisure, in fact leisure only has its real meaning when it's set against work. +For unemployed people the free time becomes rather like an empty desert with very, very few oases, and one of the results of our research was to find that, well first of all that unemployed people tend to describe their time in very negative ways, as being empty, as having nothing to do, little activity and so on in it. +Those people that had found ways of structuring their time, of organising themselves round routines, or having particular sorts of appointments to make _ and this could take many forms, like, for example, just getting up early in the morning to play a sport game, for example , or arranging to meet other people at particular times _ those people that had got some sort of time structure in their lives and some sorts of regular activities to carry out in their lives erm tended to be a lot less severely affected by unemployment than those people that didn't have these sorts of activities, this sort of time structure. +Presumably another effect is that when people work, assuming they enjoy what they're doing, they're doing something which they regard as being reasonably important. +Yes. +Good work, that is to say, is work that you do because you actually see the point of it and you actually get some pleasure and personal benefit by doing it. +Yes. +erm I think that's another important thing. +In fact, Marie Hoader tried to account for the negative consequences of unemployment in terms of five things that employment provides in our society, five sorts of experience that more and more, as we are industrialized and as more and more people are involved in working in employment, erm have come to be important and provided via employment, and we talked of two of those earlier — one's activity and one was time structure — and you've just raised the issue of feeling that you're contributing to society in some way, that you're part of a collective purpose, that you're not just drawing things out, you're also doing something useful with your time. +And the other two things I could mention at this point is that erm this activity, this useful time-structured activity, brings you into contact with other people. +It takes you out of your home, out of your immediate family environment and brings you into contact with a much broader range of people, and it provides you with a sort of status. +And although we often hear about different jobs being of different sorts of status, they're on a ladder of status, its for unemployed people the situation is very often as if you've actually been kicked off this ladder and this is what people say when they describe being unemployed as being on the scrap heap and so on, it's as if you've been expelled from this particular world where erm people respect you for having a job and know that you're contributing. +And we found that all five of these sorts of experiences were expressed much more by the employed people we interviewed than by the unemployed people. +We asked people ‘Do you meet a broad range of other people in your daily life?’ erm ‘Do you feel that your time is structured, that you have erm things to do at different times of the day?’and so on. +For each of these five areas, employed people would always say ‘Yes, I have a lot of this’ and unemployed people would usually say ‘No, I have very little of this’. +The lack of status issue, I think, is very important. +Many unemployed people are actually quite invisible in the sense of one of the things that happens when you're unemployed is that you're not actually being taken out of your home environment so much, and unemployed people spend a lot more of their time at home than erm do employed people. +There's another piece of research looking at unemployed people around the whole country, which was titled ‘Out of sight and at home’. +We asked people to keep a diary of what they were doing and to fill in this diary every half an hour, saying where they were, who they were with and what they were doing, and we were able to see erm first of all that the range of people that you meet decreases when you're unemployed, that you're actually spending more time alone, less time with friends and other people. +I think at any particular moment in the day we found that half or more of the unemployed people that we were able to interview were at home at that point in the day erm which is much, much more spent indoors and +mhm. +out of sight than for employed people. +And a lot of the contacts, the social contacts, that were being made by unemployed people weren't very positive ones. +They were the sorts of contacts that you have when you're signing on at the Employment Benefits Office, when you're going to a job interview erm and often these are very negative because the experience of signing on isn't a very pleasant experience at all; most job interviews, unfortunately, end with a rejection erm so a lot of these non-routine contacts were quite negatives ones for people. +And it's hard, very often, for unemployed people to erm maintain their previous range of social contacts. +You feel that you're a bit of burden on your friends, perhaps, because you can't go to the pub and buy a round of drinks, because you're bit of a drag on a lot of activities which involve spending some sort of money. +I realize I'm sort of giving a very, very negative impression, and I don't want to give the suggestion either that being unemployed has to be always bad, that all unemployed people are having a totally horrible time all of the time and are feeling very depressed all of the time — that's not the case — but I'm afraid that is more like the average erm situation, the typical situation, than otherwise. +People who are erm bright and optimistic about unemployment are really talking about exceptional cases. +Ian, I wish we could go on talking endlessly about this because I find the subject quite fascinating and we haven't really talked about the details of your research. +I wonder if we could just finish with a very brief comment from you in a positive sense as to what would be your advice to somebody that's unemployed? +Speaking as someone with a job I've got to be very careful about giving advice to people who are in a much worse situation than myself, but from the research we did erm it is clear that it's very important erm not just to sink in and dwell on your problems, not just to erm stay at home, not meeting other people, not engaging in activities. +In fact, the one thing that erm showed a very high relationship with being depressed was actually sitting watching more television. +The more television you watch the more depressed you seem to be . +It's important to erm find activities that can bring you into contact with other people and give you a time structure and a sense of status and erm self-esteem. +From the research it's clear that there isn't one golden road to these sorts of things. +We found all sorts of different ways that different people were achieving these experiences. +For some people it would be sports, especially team sports activities. +For some people it would be cultural activities. +Quite a lot of the young people that were coping erm better with being unemployed were involved in things like erm playing in rock groups, or being involved in erm theatre groups and things like that. +People who were involved in voluntary work, or community work, or with the unemployed workers' centre, were also sort of being taken out of themselves more, and these things are important in and of themselves. +I think they're also important in terms of not losing your links with the wider society. +If you do lose those links then you're much less likely to be able to find a job in the future because still most jobs are actually found through personal contacts of one sort or another. +erm but you're also going to know that you're contributing to the society erm and that even if some people in the newspapers and some politicians are dismissing unemployed people and saying that they're scroungers, that that isn't the case for you, that you are erm making a positive input into society, probably a much more positive input than a lot of those people that are critical of erm unemployed people. +Ian, thank you very much indeed. +We look forward to hearing more from you on the fourteenth of June erm but next week my subject will be based on another lecture topic, quite a different one. +John Farrant will be talking about the development of Brighton over the past three hundred years and how patterns of trade and commerce have tended to repeat themselves. +Maybe we've got some thing to learn here for the nineteen eighties. +Join us next Sunday for another Ideas in Action programme. +Until then, goodbye. +Earlier this week I received a letter from the headmaster of the Cardinal Newman School in Hove. +Commenting on our current series on education, he said ‘I think that the series is an excellent idea’, but he then went on to say ‘It does seem to me rather odd that such a series should have such a heavy university representation and so little input from the teachers’. +Well Mr. Feeley, now's your chance. +How do you think schools ought to be? +Well I think that schools ought to be open. +I think that we should have access to the schools for everyone who is interested in education, and I think that includes teachers, so that is why I was very grateful to receive your invitation today, and I think the series is good, but I think that why we want an open society within our schools is because everyone has got a tremendous interest in education until people begin to surround it with jargon or to build walls and barriers which create a closed society. +I think that what we're really looking for is a stimulating, exciting involvement of parents, of students, of teachers, of everyone who has an interest in the success of a school, and I think for some years at Cardinal Newman we have been trying to create this open society, which gives access at all levels to all the children and to their parents, and we don't want to close the society in any shape or form. +And that is why I think this sort of discussion, this sort of involvement of a wide range of people can create an excellent school and I think that it is the input of the wisdom and the care that we're seeking. +Well that, of course, is an excellent advert for Cardinal Newman School. +erm Juliette Hunting is a teacher and also a governor of the school. +Is it such as a good school as that? +Are you such an open society. +I mean do you, for example, gives girls a fair chance in your school? +Yes, I think we actually positively discriminate to encourage girls to take advantage of this open school. +We have almost as many girls as boys in the first year in the sixth form, for instance, which I think is a measure of this success. +And are you actually training girls to be girls, or are you training them to be people. +We're training girls to be people , as we're training boys to be people. +. +But don't you find that it's an uphill struggle. +Don't you have all sorts of cultural traditions you've got to fight against. +I mean girls, their places are in the home aren't they, really? +I think that the schools have to fight this image, but I would say that the girls themselves more recently are also changing their ideas of themselves and we are making progress. +Ann English is the head of the English Department at the school. +This school is an open school, Ann, but is it open after hours? +I mean don't you shut your doors and four o'clock and keep people out? +. +Sometimes I wish we did, but our school, in fact, is open five/six days a week and very often there are activities going on well into the evening. +For example, study. +Pupils who have had perhaps difficulty in studying at home can stay in our school library until quarter to six. +The advance learning unit is open for them to stay on after school and study there as well, and it's also open for all sorts of activities every night of the week. +There's are club, creative writing club, a literary club, a book club, as well as two drama workshops — one producing smaller plays with a small group of sixth formers and others concerned in the major school production. +As well as being open for activity with the pupils, we're also open for visitors. +We like having people into the school, both during hours and after hours. +Recently we've had Danny Apsey, the poet, come to talk to a group and next week we're having Ted Hughes, who's going to come and read his poems to us. +Nan Ron from the erm London Centre for Dance, he's been and given master classes, and all that kind of activity is going on, which I think makes a very lively and exhilarating school. +I'm not a parent of children at your school. +However, if I actually wanted to come along and learn some English — I did ‘O’ level English, I enjoyed it immensely, but then I did science in the sixth for and went on to a science career — can I come and study English at your school? +Yes, I'd be delighted if you would. +I think that we have been, for some considerable time, very interested in having open access to courses for parents and for people who are not of the considered normal age group, and I think that is one aspect of the closed society, and I think we should break free from it. +I think we should encourage more people of mature years, may I suggest that, to join the school in a learning capacity and join it during the day if we can. +If I may broaden it away from erm the Cardinal Newman School and think probably of a lot of East Sussex Comprehensive Schools, I think we have all been, in the schools, in the last few years, working hard to establish this openness, and I think that the closed concept of the school, the school that locks children out at break or locks children out at dinner time, which only allows parents to come in for a phoney Open Day when there are a few children there, they are things largely, I think, of the past and they are the closed society. +I think the closed society is also one in which you have the Grammar School, the Independent School set up, and really they are based upon fear, that if you have an open society academic standards will fall. +Over-emphasis on differences leads to the segregation of wealthy children in private schools. +It was a philosophy that I think led to the eleven plus. +It's the cause of the divisive broad band streaming which I think some comprehensives have been persuaded to use, and I'm forced to say how can a child really value himself or herself if they are placed in the bottom band of such a school throughout the time when they are at that comprehensive? +On the other hand, I think there's arguments the opposite way. +If you have a completely loose system, if you have complete mixed ability, you're merely going to cause confusion and I would think there's also a likelihood that you will be unfair to your gifted or your talented children. +So in a way, what my teachers here and what we are arguing about is that we want a school which cares for individual children, which rejects both extremes that I've mentioned. +I think it argues for open access to individual programmes of learning. +These can perhaps be achieved by setting in individual subjects. +It's a plea which we suggest should make the timetable serve the child and not the reverse, and so what we're doing is we're saying to children erm ‘Yes, you are of the same worth, you are of equal value, you should have the same care, love attention and the same resources’. +I think the inadequate yardstick of ‘O’ level is often applied to us to see whether schools that practice this sort of establishment are in fact succeeding, and they are succeeding again and again and again by getting better results than the Grammar Schools did, but by much more important criteria, by the criteria of teaching skills and values. +I think they really excel. +But are we being realistic? +It's all very well in theory, but in practice does it work? +Surely children do have different abilities. +They are at very different stages. +They have very different capacities for study and for education. +Surely in a sense you're unfair, for example, to the gifted children by putting them through this mode. +If I could just come in here, there are many opportunities for them to express their individual talents. +For example, we have withdrawal groups for music, not that their ordinary subjects are disrupted in this way, but it can be so organized on the timetable that they are withdrawn at a different period each week, and getting together, for example , to play in the school orchestra erm is of terrific value. +Similarly, children who are gifted perhaps in dance are taken out for a master class and so on. +And then with writing, too, they have the opportunity to develop those talents, perhaps in addition to their own erm school writing. +They can write at home, they can write after school, they can read it to each other and I think this is tremendous benefit where they're open with each other too and can discuss round the table and evaluate their own work. +I think that's a good step towards excellence. +Juliette, it seems to me that openness must be represented not just in the way a school carries out its activities, but also the way it's run, the way it's governed. +Do you have openness in your governors? +Yes, we have a parent governor, a teacher governor and a student governor and I think it's worth saying that our student governor was elected by thirteen hundred out of our sixteen hundred children this year. +And I'd also like to come back on this of closed schools in that if we look only at chronological age, which puts a limit on ‘O’ levels, we are shutting doors, because many students — and I see this in the sixth form — are not ready for these examinations at the prescribed age. +There's a difference between chronological age and developmental age and we at Cardinal Newman, and many other schools, have this open access sixth form where the children can mix or the students can take courses, not only ‘O’ levels, but there is a wide range of subjects. +I would like to ask you a slightly different question. +For many years I was a governor of Port Slade School and Comprehensive College and I thought that was a very impressive school, as I am sure you would agree. +What I found, though, was that what appeared to be a very good erm system from an ideal point of view was actually terribly hard to cope with so far as the teachers were concerned. +It's a very demanding thing. +I mean teaching is a demanding job, isn't it. +Now how can you cope as teachers with a school in which you are almost on call to all the population twenty four hours of the day, which is, it seems to me, what you're saying? +With difficulty, but I think it is fair to say as well it has got great compensations, because if you build walls, if you're hiding, if you're pretending, if you're always subscribing parents and stopping them from coming in you make problems; parents worry and suspect that there are problems behind those closed doors, and I think this is why we have established fifteen different parent teacher groups which meet regularly in different parts of Sussex, from Seaford to Shoreham, to Hove, to Brighton, and in small groups of ten/fifteen/twenty they'll sit down with a teacher and they don't just do fund raising they thrash out the different aspects of their children's education and then they come in and meet in a main committee and I think it is this involvement that enables the parents and the teachers to work very closely together. +I think, too, if you know your students, if you meet them outside the classroom in activities, then it makes life in the classroom as well. +There is a tremendous spin-off from one to the other. +You see them much more as people, you know their interests much more than if they are just there listening to the lesson and so in a way this open access to the teacher, I think, although at times it does give extra pressure in the long run I think it's tremendously beneficial. +This series is really about schools, but I think I ought to close by giving you and opportunity of saying something about universities if you want to. +. +What do you want to say? +I think I would say about universities that they are in this country offering a uniquely good service to our children. +What a tragedy it is that so many of our talented sixth formers, who really would do well in your universities, who are dying to get there, who queue, fight, struggle, work hard to get there, who have tremendous talents, are denied access, not because of lack of ability but perhaps because people don't realize what a great wealth of talent there is. +If I can give one example: everyone knows there is a shortage of doctors. +In the last decade at Cardinal Newman School, and I am sure any comprehensive school head could give a similar figure, we must have had six or seven very talented youngsters who got grade As/Bs at ‘A’ level have tried to get into medicine and only a small number have got in. +I think they would have made excellent doctors, now they are not doctors. +In the same way, we can point to every single course _there have been people who are highly qualified, excellent youngsters — and that is where I fear that the universities are not always given the opportunity to get these talented children in the numbers that I think they deserve. +Well thank you very much ladies and gentlemen. +That's all that we have time for this week. +Next week we're going to take this discussion a bit further. +Professor Ron Dore will be talking about the boundaries of education — do we teach the right subjects to the right people at the right time? +And of course at the end of this series we have a listeners' forum, and you will have an opportunity of putting your questions to a panel of speakers from the university and from outside the university. +Until next week, then, goodnight. +Thank you very much indeed. +Thank you. +Hello. +As I promised you last week, this is going to be a second look at that very British of institutions, the Magistrates' Court. +I recently found myself speaking to Geoffrey Norman, the Secretary of the Magistrates' Association, about court procedures. +As you probably know, about ninety eight per cent of all criminal cases are dealt with by magistrates' court, which is a truly remarkable figure, and I think you have to think about it twice when it's first said. +I think the other feature of the system is — and I think people generally don't realize what a remarkable it is — we're just about the only country in the world that has this system, and we are remarkably successful in involving ordinary members of the community in the administration of justice, both in our lay magistrates system and in our jury system. +And erm I think generally people don't realize how quite unique that is. erm one thing, of course, which is also not erm very readily understood, is the involvement of the legal person, the Clerk to the Justices, in the system, so that with the three Justices you'll having sitting you'll have sitting below them the legally qualified Clerk, and I suppose it's this particular feature of the system which is difficult for people abroad to comprehend _ how a legally qualified person can be sitting there without dominating the proceedings. +I think these days, with Magistrates properly trained, that the position is that the Clerk is not seen to dominate the proceedings. +erm people who were in court, say, twenty/thirty/forty years ago perhaps did see scenes where the Clerk was over involved and appeared to be running things, but you don't see that these days. +The Chairman will take control on behalf of this two colleagues, and the Court will be seen to be run by the Magistrates, and the Clerk will be there as their legal adviser on procedure and any legal points that arise. +So a Court would consist of three Magistrates, one of whom sits in the centre and acts as Chairman +That's right. +a Court Clerk, who is legally trained and can advise Magistrates about matters of law, but who doesn't take part in the actual decision of the Magistrates? +No. +The decision, both as to the facts and the law, is for the Justices alone, so it's unlike a judge and jury trial where the judge deals with the law and the jury deal with the facts. +In the Magistrates' Court the decision as to verdict and sentence is entirely for the Justices acting on the advice of their Clerk, and of course it is erm true to say that generally speaking Justices will follow the advice of their Clerk, but they don't have to. +The decision finally is theirs and they take full responsibility for that decision, and may erm in exceptional circumstances not follow the advice of their Clerk. +We seem to have two layers, two levels. +There's the Magistrates' Court and then above it there's the Crown Court. +Is there any contact between the two? +How can there be consistency, perhaps, between Judge and Jury and the magistrate system? +Again, it's a very interesting feature of our system and not widely understood I don't think that magistrates are also judges of the Crown Court under the legislation setting up the Crown Court and magistrates do sit in the Crown Court, but these days there's considerable contact between the magistracy and the Crown Court. +There will be a liaison judge in the Crown Court who will see it as part of his function to liaise with the lay magistrate and to meet them and to discuss erm such matters as erm sentencing principles with them. +And erm oh for many years now there's been a great interest in consistency in sentencing. +For example, the Magistrates' Association produce suggestions for these many road traffic cases you've spoken about, which list about fifty odd of the common road traffic offences and make suggestions as to the penalties that might be adopted throughout England and Wales. +Now that's an effort in consistency. +It doesn't lay down rigid guidelines to be followed, it just suggests erm penalties for average offences committed by first offenders of average means, and it provides a starting point for magistrates to think about. +And then of course they exercise their discretion on the actual facts of the case when fixing the sentence. +Let's get back to courts just for a moment. +What percentage of people actually plead guilty to charges against them? +I don't know the actual percentage erm but it's pretty high. +I'm afraid you'd have to look up that figure. +It is available, of course, in the statistics. +It's probably something like eighty or ninety per cent perhaps. +I would suggest that it's probably in that region, yes. +What happens if somebody wants to plead not guilty? +Does it cost them at lot more money? +Not at all. +It needn't cost them erm any more at all. +erm they can conduct the case themselves +They don't have to have a solicitor to represent them? +No, indeed, and in many cases people erm if the case is relatively straightforward, an ordinary moating case, they do perfectly well doing it themselves because the Court would assist them with the procedure, the Clerk of the Court would assist them with the procedure, and every effort would be made to assist an unrepresented defendant with the procedure as it goes along. +If he can't afford a Solicitor and he feels he ought to be represented by a Solicitor, he may apply for Legal Aid, and of course it's public money concerned so I suppose in an ideal society everybody would be legally assisted who wanted to be, but obviously we can't afford that as a country, so that erm generally erm his application would be judged according to certain criteria erm which would suggest perhaps he needed to be represented. +Certainly if a legal if a custodian sentence was likely you'd get legal aid. +A person who had difficulty with the English language would get legal aid. +If there were difficult legal points to be resolved he would get legal aid. +So there are two tests basically; one the means test — can he afford it or not, and two the interest of justice test — is it in the interest of justice that this person should be legally aided, and any doubt on that is resolved in the defendant's favour. +I think some people rather suspect that magistrates take the side of the police in cases. +Is there any basis for that do you imagine? +Well of course erm the basis used to be that many courts erm had written above them ‘Police Court’ and I think some of the older courts where this was sort of carved in stone may still have this above them, but Magistrates have gone to great lengths erm in recent times to emphasise this is not a police court, this is a magistrates' court. +The police appear before the court as witnesses, of course, in many cases, but their status before the court is just like any other erm witness and they have no greater standing before the court, and their evidence is judged by Magistrates on the same basis as that of any other witness. +How do Magistrates decide what penalty to impose? +You say they've got some sort of guidance, perhaps through the Magistrates' Association, or maybe through some local starting point tariff if I could put it that way. +How do they actually decide in the end what penalty to impose, assuming a person's found guilty of course? +Yes. +The first consideration, I think, is how serious the offence is and there will be some offences which are so serious that custody may be the only proper sentence. +In that type of case erm perhaps the Court will not pay too much regard to the defendant's personal circumstances because they're not going to make that much difference, but if it's not that serious a case the other main consideration that comes into play is the defendant's own personal circumstance. +So the first choice really is between erm a sentence which is not an individualized one and one which can be individualized in justice and all the circumstance of the case. +And of course what very often happens these days, with such a high level of unemployment, is if it's a fine that's decided upon — and I think something like in three-quarters of the cases dealt with by Magistrates do end up with a fine — that it has to be scaled down because of the erm poor circumstance, poor financial circumstance in which the defendant is. +So you may start off by saying well two hundred pounds fits this case according to it's seriousness, but you find that the defendant couldn't possibly afford to pay that and realistically, say, only a fifty pound fine can be imposed. +Sometimes that's not quite understood by the public. +They just look at the report in the paper and say how on earth was this man fined fifty pounds for this offence. +So in those circumstances it is very often wise for a court to explain — look, normally, you'd have got erm two hundred pounds for this offence, but because of your poor financial circumstances erm we're imposing a fine of fifty pounds in your case. +We're always reading that prisons are far too overcrowded these days. +Do you think magistrates send too many people to prison? +No, that is a complete myth, actually. +I haven't met the type of Magistrate who enjoys sending anybody to prison. +erm Magistrates only send people to prison because they feel the circumstances of the case justify it and erm I think in the public mind erm the criticism is more often the reverse, that Magistrates are too soft, and I've heard Lord Hailsham say more than once that if we do pay a price for the lay magistrate system it is leniency because what happens, and the difference between the lay magistrate system and the stipendiary system or the Crown Court system is that Magistrates do sit in threes, and what that tends to do is lead to compromises in sentence because discussion between three people irons out extreme views and you do tend to end up with a very well considered compromise view, which probably does tend to be more lenient than a sentence imposed by any one person who might himself take a very serious view of the circumstances. +Over the years some penalties have been done away with and others have been introduced. +Would you like to see any new type of penalty introduced? +I think yes. +I think the one type of penalty we lack is something between full custody and non-custody. +We have far too great a gap between these two states which I think all magistrates are very conscious of and which all defendants are very conscious of, and particularly from the public point of view again erm the present alternatives to custody are seen by members of the public as soft options, are seen as a let off. +I think we do have room in our system for some semi-custodial measure. +Sort of weekend prisons? +The Magistrates' Association put forward day imprisonment. +The All Party Penal Affairs Group of the House of Commons and others have put forward weekend imprisonment. +Something like that. +I mean perhaps it could take the form of Adult Attendance Centres, but erm we need something which is seen to be punitive but which falls sort of full deprivation of erm liberty. +You are Secretary of the Magistrates Association and you have something like twenty five thousand members out of a total of something like twenty seven thousand Magistrates. +That's correct. +And you obviously believe in the system? +Oh, indeed, yes. +I think that erm it's a very healthy system. +I think erm I think it's a very desirable object to involve members of the community in the erm administration of justice. +I think our discussion here has come a full circle really. +I believe that we achieve this very successfully, and when you bear in mind the pressure under which the Magistracy have been in recent times, with erm industrial action, demonstrations, which have brought them to the forefront of the attention, I think it's a remarkably achievement that the Magistrates have come through this with the public in general terms satisfied with the performance of Magistrates in the discharge of these very onerous functions. +And you believe that it will survive into the future? +Well I certainly hope so, yes. +Thank you very much Mr. Norman. +Thank you. +Well that concludes our look at Magistrates' Courts. +Next Sunday we shall be bringing you the last Ideas in Action programme before Christmas. +It'll have a special winter flavour and feature Amos Chatfield as he talks about Christmases past and his boyhood encounter with the ghost of Stanmer Woods. +Join us next week. +Until then, goodbye. + +Hello. +Computers are used in all walks of life, although so far in our series of programmes we've largely been looking at scientific applications. +Today, however, we're going to examine quite a different area — how computers can help librarians to make better use of their stock. +Peter Stone is a librarian at the university. +Peter, how useful have you found the computer in our library? +Well first of all I suppose one should say that we don't just use one computer, we, like lots of other libraries, have got access to a large number of computers, and indeed you'll find these computers being used elsewhere for the same sort of way. +Probably most people have seen displays of Prestel, even in television rental shops, which is a system running through the Post Office network accessing large amounts of mainly factual information — things like telephone directories, like timetables, like oh a lot of business information. +That's very effective if you're dealing with factual information which is changing fairly rapidly, and I think we'll see quite a growth of that in the next few years, but libraries aren't just stores of factual information; they store a large number of books and articles and they need access to that too, and probably the most typical external use of a computer in libraries and in a university library, academic library, these days is to access the huge stores of information on scientific publishing. +There's one gigantic computer in California, which has got access to a hundred databases there called the stores of information, compiled mainly by the publishers of journals. +It's got thirty million articles in it, when you can find information, pull out articles relevant to your needs, by looking for authors, looking for words in the text and you can look at the summary of the article very quickly. +In both Prestel and those sorts of things as you use the system you pay, and you pay for the telecommunications costs, you pay for the computer costs, and you pay for the information that you receive. +And that sort of worldwide sharing of information, I am sure, is going to grow. +However, my own interest, perhaps, is more in what a library, a typical library not just a university library, can do with its own computer, and most of our most of our readers, most of the people who use libraries expect to find books in those libraries and expect to find them when they want them, and our interests have been angled very much towards improving that sort of service. +So there's a sense in which you use a computer for all sorts of different purposes. +You use the computer when books are issued, for example? +Yes, I'm sure most people by now are quite familiar with the use of computers in this way. +In fact, in about 1971 there was a sudden spate of development in this area, and both the University Library and what was then Brighton Public Library and West Sussex all were innovators in those days, using computer-based lending systems, which used little cards with lots of little holes in them and — I am sure they are familiar to lots of people — in the last few years you'll have seen those holes replaced by sort of zebra stripes erm what are called bar codes in the trade, and those bar codes you'll also see on your groceries all over the place. +That's an interesting problem, the way we communicate erm a computer is not the way we necessarily think of it. +You can only distinguish your library card from that of a book by the difference in the thickness of one line. +It's just a thick line for humans and a thin line for books, possibly, but it works and we haven't had any problems. +So when you actually are checking out a book, the librarian runs a little light pen, is it, over the code, so that it +That's it. +Well, there again, there's a compromise. +We all know how to use pens — we were taught how to use a pen in primary school — but the computer can't read our writing yet, so we use something which looks like a pen, but it's reading something which doesn't look like letter of the alphabet and words, but which it can understand and understand very quickly and very accurately indeed. +And presumably the advantage of using a computer for that is much greater than the mere saving of time in a library and taking out a card and putting it in a wallet or erm a card folder or something like that, because you can retain in your computer a lot of information about what books are in the library and what books are out with lenders and so on. +Right. +That information is only part of the very large store of information that we need to retain in our own local computer, which contains records about erm it's about a hundred and fifty thousand of our four hundred and fifty thousand different books at this moment. +Going back on what I said earlier on, East Sussex County Library, for example, keep their records of books, their catalogue, on a system which is run from the British Library and the Polytechnic draws that sort of information from a co-operative, which was originally based in Birmingham. +We've chosen to go it alone, but the net result is the same, that the computer store of information includes information on the authors and the titles of the books and, of course, now includes information on the books that are being borrowed, who's got them, when they're coming back, how many other copies we've got, whether we've got copies on order and all of that, all in one central store of information, a central store which can be shared by everyone using the library. +mhm And I suppose in the old days if you actually wanted to know which books were popular and which books were not used at all, you had to a library and to painstakingly look through the shelves, perhaps, and look at the date stamps or something like that, whereas now presumably it's just a question of pressing a few buttons and the information comes. +Well, right. +In the old days we simply couldn't afford to do that. +We're not dealing with a thousand items, we're dealing with four hundred and fifty thousand items, and for anyone to go and collect that information on a larger scale, even sampling it would have been almost unthinkable. +Now the computer can collect this sort of information as people borrow the books, as a sort of by-product, if you like. +The book is lent, it needs to be know when it's gone out, when it's due back, but the computer clock up one — that bit of information adds to other bits of information, all within the central store. +We know what the price of the book was. +We had to pay for it, so we had to send off a bill and therefore it knows what the price is. +We have to put a shelf mark on the books so that we can shelve the book, but that tells us quite a lot about the subject, and if you start putting those three things together the librarian, as manager of his library, can start to put all this information together — in fact, the computer digests it for him — to give him an overview of how effective his operation is, when he should be buying extra copies, when perhaps he should be thinking of not buying quite so much, or being a little more selective. +But the reader gains as well, because he sees it from a different angle. +Most of our users come into the library looking for a very specific book. +About eighty per cent of the users are students and they've normally been told to read this, or read that, or read the other, and if they now use one of our computer terminals, which has got a little video screen on the top and a little keyboard, they can look up the books, they can look them up by title, by the title of the book as well as by the traditional author approach, and when they've found it the computer tells them how many copies are in the library, or whether they're all on loan. +It's all drawing information from this same central store of information erm it's a way of sharing information amongst a lot of different people for a lot of different reasons, information which previously would have been separated and almost impossible to put together without a great deal of effort. +Let's harp back to what you were saying earlier about information storage on a very large scale. +You mentioned the explosion of information, particularly in the science area where there are thousands, literally thousands, of publications and scientists producing more information, more data, every day and pumping into these things. +Do you think it's going to ultimately change the whole notion of publishing. +Do you think that perhaps in due course publishing will move into an area in which you wouldn't actually ever print anything, you would actually put it into a machine? +Well, yes, it's very interesting, but I'm not sure it's working in the same direction as almost implied by your question of implying that there was almost too much. +One of the more fascinating changes has been the introduction of word processing equipment, whereby someone who types his article can just send off something like a floppy disk to his publisher, and without much intervention it appears as the printed article. +The publisher, traditionally, needs to sell at least a thousand copies of that to be worth even advertising it, but this means that you can print an extra copy whenever you want and this then implies perhaps and even larger and larger growth and more and more specialised information, which only computers can manage, and one hesitates to work out where the end of all this is. +The human race is producing so much information — it isn't factual information, we're not just looking at price movements of stocks and shares, but in the scientific community it's very much to do with ideas and how that person can get across his ideas, his concepts to people to half a world away. +That's a very complicated question. +And you mentioned, then, how a floppy disk — that's a sort of disk storage device — can be used to get a book printed, is this being used at all in practice, or is it just a daydream? +Oh, yes, indeed, a close friend of mine has been working on the history of a very large British company and he's just seen the proofs produced from the printers from the typescript which was typed in his own office, and apart from the fact that their computers can change the typefaces and improve the whole thing, the work has not had to be re-keyboarded, as they would say, re-typed in at all. +It does save things very considerably. +It's part of the this way in which the computer can turn information over and over again for a different need. +I saw in publishing a very nice example of that, not the word processing, but at John Wylies, who are a very big scientific publishers in Chichester, where they had a computer system which the editors — he's the person who deals with the author, puts the book together — set about ordering the book; the orders and that information went into the computer, when the thing was printed it went into the warehouse and the computer then organised the storage of all of these things in the warehouse. +Orders came in, and that helped the warehouse people unpack the boxes and despatch them; the information got fed back to the editor to tell him what the sales were, and it was a continuous process and all of the people tended to see the computer as working very much for them, rather than for the other department next door. +And presumably if you wanted to revise a book at all, and you had the book on your floppy disk or in your computer in some for, you could again use your word processor to bring it up to date in a revised version. +Well that's that is I think everyone who's ever worked on computers, editing or word processors, has been very fascinated by the change of attitude that they've had, that somehow it isn't finished. +It's never finished. +Previously you could ask someone to type up first draft, second draft, maybe a third draft, but how far can you drive your secretary, and now they can be wholly in charge of this — they can change the layout of it as much as the words within it; they can ask colleagues to come in and comment and even add a little bit. +Could you revised paragraph ten, Fred? +That sort of thing goes on continuously. +The thing is moulded under your eyes. +And a recent book which has been very popular in the university, Goedel Esher Bach, which is on some of the aspects of artificial intelligence and ideas, has in its preface got a quite a long article on how the author actually organized all of the processes, right through to the final printing of that book, and indeed even wrote the programs for formatting the text, and it had obviously been very stimulating for him. +He could organize the final output of everything that he had thought, right from the beginning through to end. +Well, thank you very much, Peter, that's most interesting. +That's all that we have time for today. +Next week I shall be talking to Delia Venables. +Hello. +This is another programme in our series from the university, in which we share with you news and views concerning activities that are going on here. +During the coming weeks, as I told you in our last programme, we are going to talk with people from outside the university who have contacts with us. +I recently spoke to Chris Cooper, who's director of the South East Arts Association. +I asked him when he first became aware of the university. +Well I became aware of the University of Sussex when the Gardener Centre first opened I think, because at that time I was working at the Arts Council of Great Britain and it was erm an innovative scheme which attracted a great deal of national interest, and we were naturally invited down to have a look at it, both the design and the programme that was being planned for the opening season at that time. +I therefore became very clearly aware of the potential that the university held for the whole of the East Sussex area. +The Gardener Centre was in fact the first Arts Centre associated with the university? +Well I'm not sure that it was exactly the first, but it was one of the early ones, that's true. +And you're now Director of South East Arts, having left the Arts Council. +How long have you been the new director? +I've been down here six months now. +What area does the region actually cover? +We cover the whole of Kent, the whole of East Sussex, and the whole of Surrey. +And so what happens to the other part of Sussex, does that belong to a different region? +West Sussex belongs to Southern Arts Association, who operate erm to the west of us, right the way through to Dorset. +How about Brighton? +Is that a hot area so far as the arts are concerned? +Yes, very hot. +I mean it's an enormous resource in terms of talented people, facilities, interesting ideas that we use as a bank to fuel other parts of the region which are less active. +There's far more interesting activity taking place in Brighton than there is in any other single borough area of the whole of the South East region, and that's reflected in the amount of money which we give to activities in the Brighton area. +You, of course, have your headquarters in Tunbridge Wells, isn't that rather a long way to have much contact with Brighton? +It's equidistant between the excitements of Brighton and the challenges of Gillingham, Chatham and the Medway towns, so strategically it's well suited to us. +You say that Brighton could in fact contribute to the other parts of the region. +In what way could this be possible? +Well it's certainly clear that some of the companies, for instance Cliffhanger, which have grown in Brighton and developed Brighton as a base, are not just immensely popular within Brighton, but also very popular when we take them out on tour, or when they offer their services to other venues in other parts of East Sussex or Kent, and this is equally true of some of the community orientated groups, some of the musicians and artists who live and work primarily in Brighton erm their talent is readily appreciable throughout the region and therefore it's part of our tactics to talk to artists who are operating in the Brighton area and see whether they're willing or interested in taking some of their work out to other parts of the region. +You say you have contact with many of the people in the region, do you have any contact with Radio Brighton just out of interest? +Yes, yes. +I think the association had in the early a very close working relationship with Radio Brighton and we certainly keep contact with Radio Medway, Radio Brighton and all the other television and radio companies which are active within the region. +I don't think our contact is halfway strong enough, but the proposal to handle that is something that we we're working on a the moment. +Bob Gunnell, of course, is an was and has been for some time a very supportive member of South East Arts and active in many of its committees. +Yes, he's always jumping on me to tell me to do more for local radio and get South East Arts and South East Arts clients more regularly in contact with local radio, and I must admit on the latter case I do think that many of our clients do spend a great deal of time and erm want to be active with local radio. +In fact, at the Gardener Centre a few months after I took after we did a workshop which Radio Brighton took part in and came up and gave a class in terms of how to make the most out of your local radio station, and that kind of thing we really need to develop even further. +How do you see the Gardener Centre fitting into the South East Arts region? +What can it offer the region? +Well it's a very important resource. +It's very difficult, and I think that people involved in the Gardener Centre have, ever since its inception, found it quite difficult to work how quite how it fits into the overall Brighton scene, and I find it fascinating to look at the nature of facilities which exist in central Brighton and try and work out in one's own mind how best he facility of the Gardener fits in with that. +It's complicated by its geographical positioning. +There may, indeed, be positive aspects to the slight detachment of the Gardener Centre from the central hubbub, which we've yet to work out how fully to utilize. +I know that the Arts Centre, which I was very much involved with in erm Berkshire in Southfield Park, it, too, was situated slightly out of the centre of the town, with large ground area around it and it was a problem trying to work out how to capitalize on that considerable asset. +It turned out to be erm used more fully as a family centre, where families would come and spend half a day, than it did the casual pop-in arts centre, which the old arts laboratories or the more conventional arts centre perhaps were directed towards. +And it may be that the Gardener Centre has a broader community function than previously realized, in that it might be a marvellous place for families and kids and mums and dads, as they did on the recent Gardener Open Day, to come up and spend some time in casual appreciation of the arts instead of what, traditionally, a university campus is supposed to do, which is a serious and intensive look at experimental and avant garde work. +The siting of the Gardener may not be appropriate to that. +We made a very definite decision some years ago to make the Gardener Centre look towards the community as a whole, rather than just make it a university toy, or part of the formal academic programme. +I think it's worked on the whole, although sometimes we have reservations. +Certainly, it's the strongest point of contact between town and gown. +That becomes very clear in any survey we've ever done. +mhm +I'm interested about your comments erm that it could be used to do more in terms of families. +Do you have any further thoughts on that? +Well, we've talked ourselves about the consequences about of that role on the catering operation which is available. +The families we who've used our arts centres in other parts of the country have been influenced erm not just by the quality of art work on display, but also by the fact they can get decent beer and erm good, cheap food erm and the children and the other parts of the family have got plenty of other activities to to to take an interest in and I think it would need the university to think seriously about developing the social side of the Gardener Centre in those terms, and that's why it was deeply disappointing to find the university pulling back on their subsidy for the Gardener Centre as that really can't help anybody find the most appropriate role for the building. +It's marvellous that the Brighton Corporation came in, but nevertheless the building to perform a function which is going to be useful for the community as a whole has got to be properly funded. +I think many of us would sympathise with that view. +erm I would have to say in the university's defence, as you would imagine I would say +Yes, I can see the Vice Chancellor banging on the wall as I speak. +. +But there you are. +that it comes in the context of massive university cuts, but I don't think it's worth pursuing that very much further. +No, but the point is that to in all our cases to provide a community resource which is going to be of genuine use to artists and the general public, erm one has to take care that the standards of work and the standards of community facilities are as high as they possibly can be if you want to attract maximum usage, and what we will be trying to do in circumstances like this encourage as many people to come up to the Gardener at weekends during the summer and have as enjoyable a time as possible. +I take your point. +Do you think there are other ways in which perhaps the Gardener Centre could fit more into the Brighton community? +No, I think probably over the years every avenue, other than perhaps this one, has been exploited to the full. +I mean in the periods that I've been coming down and coming over, and it's been a fairly regular basis, I should imagine every manager and director or university employee has put forward every conceivable way in which that particular building could be used. +I would have thought that most things have been tried by now and I would not imagine that there are many other avenues to be followed. +The fact is that the building, whilst it claims to be flexible, is fairly inflexible. +I think I've sat is those auditorium seats in the same format for quite a few years now. +They haven't been moved for quite a long time, and it's funny how buildings which claim to have extraordinary flexibility sometimes turn out to be really quite rigid. +And the fact is that with the money available erm the Gardener Centre I should think it's not possible to use it in the kind of flexible way in which it was planned in the first years. +We've talked a lot about the Gardener Centre, but of course the university is a much bigger place than just the Gardener Centre. +What sort of contact do you have with other members of the university or other departments in the university? +Well as an association, we naturally get ourselves involved with many other aspects of the university activities in that erm both the students are applicants of ours and come and talk to us about projects which they may like to see emerge, and other departments of the university, the music department etc., sometimes find that our knowledge of the area, or certain aspects of some of the schemes that we're operating, coincide with what they're trying to do and it turns out to be that campuses like this are often useful places for residencies and artists will come and take up residency in a university for a period of time, and that's often been exploited by the Association. +And of course I suppose there are many members of the university who serve on your panels and committees and activities? +Yes, there's always been a genuine interest in the Arts Association as a point where the university, those people involved in the university, can hear about what's taking place in the arts and also participate in some aspects of the advisory panels. +That's always been very useful to us. +There are, of course, other universities in the region. +There's the University of Kent and the University of Surrey. +Do you have similar contacts with them? +Yes, each of them is well represented in terms of erm members of the University showing an interest in the arts work in their area, and several of them have members erm who serve on our advisory panel, as indeed Sussex does. +They don't all have the same erm facilities as Sussex, nor indeed the same tradition of town and gown relationships, but nevertheless within the university there are several groups of people wanting to develop ideas of literature festivals or performance arts events, which we try and encourage because erm we have very little money within the Arts Association and have to maximise whatever facilities and people that we can lay our hands on. +My last question is more of a personal one. +How are you enjoying being director of this Association? +Well I'm enjoying it myself very much indeed. +I like the region a great deal and erm am enjoying the stimulating atmosphere which I've come into. +I'm very well aware that the director before me built a very stable platform on which we can operate, and that we're lucky to have a region that's so rich in talent, erm in artistic talent, and in enthusiasm. +erm I'm very much aware that the challenges are ahead of us, both in terms of erm dealing with a difficult financial situation, which has been the pattern now for three or four years, but also in entering certain fields and approaches to arts activity that perhaps require more of the central staff than previously. +If we're going to go in and make a positive impact in certain parts of the region, erm then both my staff and myself and our colleagues who are working in the arts in the region have got to pull even harder together to make sure that we can make the partnership between us bureaucrats and the artist really be as effective as possible for the broadest range of the community. +Well, thank you very much, Chris. +Next week we shall be talking to another member of the outside community about their view of the university and +Hello. +Continuing our series on computing, this week we move from the more technical aspects of their working to consider ways in which they affect our routine and everyday lives. +A couple of years ago I had a fascinating conversation with Professor Max Clues on just this subject. +Max was Professor of Artificial Intelligence in the university, but sadly, since the recording was made, has died. +However, what he had to say is still thoroughly relevant today. +When I was talking to him I asked him what changes he saw taking place in the computing world. +Well, I think we all know the answer to that — it's called micros — chips with everything. +And we're seeing a situation in which computers are now moving out of the sort of Delphic Oracle there where they were behind glass doors and you could go and look at them and there were huge whirring wheels and whatnot. +They are moving out onto people's desks and almost into Woolworths. +I think Currys are now into the micro marketing game and that, I think, says a lot about availability. +What that means is that there's a whole new way of thinking about what sorts of tasks can people actually use computers to do so the offices of the future may well have no typewriters, but just micro computers tied into an information system, and that presents, I think, great problems for people. +Yes, I think people think of computers as being devices that calculate things essentially. +You're saying that this is not necessarily the case. +Certainly not, and I think that that's one of the things that causes people to be to switch off when you mention computers and think ‘oh, I can't understand that’ because their experience at school perhaps was that they couldn't understand mathematics anyway. +The important thing to recognize, really, is that anyone can program a computer, and I do mean program it. +erm we have developed over in the university, in the arts area especially, for arts undergraduates who don't have mathematical or scientific training, ways of giving them erm training in computer programming, and they come out really both full of fun about it and with a lot more confidence than they could possibly have imagined they would have when they began. +So you don't need a degree in mathematics to run a computer? +No, I think it's well known, actually, amongst the computing fraternity, that the best programmers are actually housewives, because basically it's a question of housekeeping. +Well that's very impressive and encouraging obviously to any housewives who may be listening. +But it seems to me this is an absolute revolution. +I mean you're talking about having computers in the offices and perhaps in the home, now this must have great impact on the future education needs of people who are going to use these devices, surely? +Yes, that's quite right. +erm I saw in the newspaper, as I am sure you probably did, last week that the government has just devoted, I think, nine million pounds over the next few years to develop curricula and methods of training teachers in schools, and I think it's tremendously important that that doesn't become merely a bit more science of one form or another. +One of the things that we need to be clear about is that erm computers are not unlike us. +In many ways they have processes that are like us. +For example, the basic idea, one might say, is that computers follow procedures. +Now in an office, or in doing some work in a school, you follow a procedure. +The teacher tells you what to do, or the manager tells you what he wants done, and it's logical and it involves manipulating information, bringing files together, bringing tax together, working it all out, and it's not calculation _ you're manipulating information. +Now, if you can be reasonably precise, erm careful, about what the procedure to be followed is, you've just written a program. +Now in fact what that means for me is that actually we're all programmers — we always have been — but we haven't been used to explaining it in quite the way that computers need us to explain it, and of course that goes back to this question of understanding English that we were talking about last time. +So it's really a question of improving English as a language, rather than mathematics or algebra. +Yes, I think that the crucial thing that's emerging, especially from the area of artificial intelligence, is that we're beginning to understand that what the name of the game is getting people to express their intentions, and for a long time we've been, as it were, stuck in languages that don't really help you to do that and we're really beginning to understand now that erm what people are doing when they program indeed, I mean as it were the ace programmers, are expressing their intention for whatever's to be done in the task the computer's to perform clearly. +And we all know people who are actually very good at telling you how to do something. +They are just very good at communicating their intentions. +And if we look at it from that standpoint I think we can begin to see, perhaps, that actually we're all programmers, some of us less clear about it than others. +One of the exciting things about the erm introduction of this into schools is that we might actually begin to get, from a very early age, erm children clear about that the need to communicate their intentions, and that that's what actually that's what mathematics and similar formal systems has always been about. +Even I mean the the English teacher will know that, that what he's trying to do is to get a student to write his intentions clearly, to make his points clearly, to have a goal in writing his essay, what is it he's trying to say. +All those things are absolutely clear to us. +We haven't, I think, hitherto seen that they're really a part of programming. +I see. +Do you think that there will be a great development in perhaps new subjects in schools? +I know that they do have computer science courses at both O level and A level, do you think these will be the basis of the future courses, or are we looking for an entirely new development, something quite new and quite different, that stands as a subject in his own right? +I think so. +I remember a colleague of mine, who actually wasn't erm terribly enamoured of computers, who had a book called ‘Thinking Goes to School’ I think. +Now in his case he was erm thinking mostly of toys and puzzles and problems to be done in the classroom. +I think that the computer presents exactly that challenge and amongst the sorts of things I'm thinking of is that erm it's one thing to play with a computer toy, a game of some sort — we've all seen them in the bar and elsewhere — it's another thing entirely to devise your own game, to program your own rules in and then to bring your friend along and have them challenge it. +Now in order to do that, you've really got to understand what a game is erm how you organise, for example, looking at the board, if it is a board game; how you're going to represent that in a program. +Now these are very challenging ideas. +They are not actually all that difficult, as we've been finding in the teaching that we've been doing where indeed we have students who take a ten week course, sort of once a week, and by about week six they're already beginning to do that, they're beginning to work out their own problems erm puzzles and games and little language understanding programs and that's commonplace, actually. +That was done as long ago as ten years ago in America. +Twelve year olds were doing that kind of task on a computer. +What's happened is, of course, that as the costs have fallen and the micros have come in through the door so they're very much smaller, erm it all becomes possible for the whole of society and not for a tiny elite. +I think that the use of the word ‘language’ can be a little bit confusing to some people that have never actually done any computing. +erm perhaps you could expand on this a little bit. +We think of the spoken language, the written language, what in practice do you mean by ‘language’, is it an instruction you type on a keyboard, or what in terms of a computer? +Well at the moment that's true. +At the moment erm the way that we use computers is, of course, to use a keyboard, but I was talking to some people today who've now developed and you can buy it, erm a system on which you can write on what you want to say, so that as long as you print fairly clearly you don't have to learn any new typing skills. +The question that's behind that, however, of course, is what is the language itself, what are the words; are they English words, or are they some other kind of words? +Well increasingly, of course, they are English words and that's because, increasingly, we are getting closer and closer to erm expressing intention, and the thing about language, you see, is that it was designed by nature to be a vehicle for intention, and that's what we all secretly know, but in fact we've never been helped to think about it. +One of the things I again would like to see in schools is that sort of approach, which brings out what language is really about, and I think that that's an exciting and possibly quite unexpected outcome of bringing computers into schools, but it will require that we don't simply think of it as being ‘oh, let's have a micro in the science lab’; it is going to be as the government seems to recognise, a step involving curriculum design, involving helping teachers _ really, really helping them in a strongly supportive way — to do something which is, I would say, revolutionary. +So, if it is a revolution, and I have no doubt it is, how do we stand in this country compared with the United States, Europe, Japan, perhaps Russia. +Are we do we stand any chance of being in the forefront of this revolution? +Oh, that's a difficult one to answer, isn't it? erm I think that we're unique in this country, possibly, especially Sussex and one or two other places, in having erm a mixture of artificial intelligence, psychology, erm microelectronics. +I'm thinking actually of here in the university itself, we've got three different groups in those areas that are now collaborating, and I think we've got a good chance of _ especially in the area of schools curricula — but also in the area, I think, of helping business people, and I'm thinking now of senior management, who might be your and my age, Brian, for whom computers didn't exist when we went through university or college, erm who've probably more or less given up any hope of understanding it and understanding the computer boffins who have taken over — almost taken over the company at times, one suspects. +What I'd like to do is to help them to see that they don't need to give up on the computer, that they can actually be the master of it, although of course I don't I'm not suggesting that they become programmers — that would be to abdicate their function in another way — but certainly they can understand it, and I think of course it keeps coming back to this issue over and over again, an issue about education. +What we've got is a tremendous gap in what people need to know in society, in all areas of society, to handle this computer revolution. +So a big issue about whether how well we're placed with regard to America and Japan and so on is how well placed are we to bring about this educational step, and I think we're probably about as well placed as anybody else, certainly we haven't made some of the mistakes that other people have made, we haven't had a very big investment in what's often called computer assisted instruction, which I think is rather limited. +I think it's much more important that we instruct the computer and not have the computer instruct us. +If we can learn to be programmers _ indeed we already are — but if we can learn to instruct the computer, then we'll retain our dignity and our responsibility in matters rather than really abdicating it in ways that I don't myself favour. +So what you're really saying is that the computers of the kind you're describing are for the ordinary person. +They're for the child in school; they're for the housewife; they're for the businessman of the future, and an ordinary competent businessman has the capability and the possibility of actually learning how these devices work and using them, rather than just leaving it to the boffin, the scientist, the computer expert. +That's right, and until he does that, until he does, as it were, grasp the mettle and begin to express his purposes, his procedures, directly to the computer, he will always be at the risk that what gets expressed is not what he quite wanted, just a little bit different, he and he alone, is the person who knows what the company purposes are. +I mean otherwise he shouldn't be the Managing Director, he shouldn't be the Chairman of the Board. +So it gets back to a question of confidence again? +That's right, and I think that erm, yes, there's a notion that I find useful in talking to students that we all have a comfort zone, there are all things that we know about, that we know how to do and if anything comes up — I mean in business it might be accountancy, we don't all know how to handle figures, and so that's an area that we've hived off in that area and we all know that when we do that we are, as it were, giving up a bit; we're saying ‘well, I can't manage I just don't have I can't do that, it's not for me’. +Now confidence is, I think the key to success. +Everyone knows that, it goes back a long way. +erm what we don't know, perhaps, is how to create confidence is what is obviously a technological revolution, an expanding area, something entirely new. +At the university here we have got two or three groups in which we do know how to do that and especially the work that I'm associated with, again the arts undergraduates, we have developed over a period now of something like six years, ways of giving them confidence, and it's amazing to see what happens. +When you give them confidence they suddenly take off. +I mean I am constantly being confronted with students who do things that I don't actually understand, and they're my own students, and actually that's quite nice, I like that. +And this confidence is available for everyone and hopefully will be in the future — the housewife, the businessman and so forth? +Yes, and we at the university are, I think, really I say ‘I think’, my own purpose here at the university is to export what we've got as quickly as we can to the local community, and indeed nationally too. +Thank you very much, Max. +That's all that we have time for today. +Next week I shall be talking with Peter Stone about how computers are +Hello. +Do you have young children? +I was recently talking to the mother of a four year old boy about his progress at learning his letters, when I realized just how responsible and vulnerable she felt about his lack of progress, and that started me thinking about the educational process and the pressures that we put on ourselves and our children to succeed. +Should children be encouraged to learn before they go to school? +What role can parents play once their children are in class? +And do we take ourselves and our responsibilities so seriously that our worries are transmitted to our offspring? +I recently put some of these questions to Joanna Turner, who's a psychologist who's special interest is the development of young children. +I started by asking her what stage she thought formal education should commence. +As you know, at the moment it starts at five, but perhaps, ideally, it could start younger, but obviously there are financial considerations as well. +Perhaps development of nursery education on a much greater scale, bigger scale than has hitherto been the case +Well, be careful what you're committing me to saying. +I mean you asked me about formal education, and immediately we're talking about nursery education. +Now I don't want, necessarily, to equate the two of them. +I do think some formal education could start sooner, but I wouldn't want you or the listeners to think that nursery education and formal education are one and the same. +What is the difference, basically? +Well I think one of the advantages of a nursery schooling is certainly a considerable amount of social interaction for the children, which very often they won't be obtaining, either if they're living in high rise flats, or at the other end of the social spectrum if they're parents are living in large houses with large gardens and no other children within the vicinity. +So I think it has a social function, as well as a formal educational function. +Do you think that the social function comes before the formal function, or do you think they both go together? +I think it would depend on the child. +For some children they are more socially deprived, and yet they may be getting considerable ‘education’ in inverted commas within their home environment. +For other children they probably are getting enough social interaction, there may be plenty of children around, but educationally, in terms of the sort of basics for education they may be extremely deprived. +I think there are many functions that it serves. +Do children develop at roughly the same rate? +Can you say that all three year olds are roughly the same? +You can say that three year olds are more like other three year olds than, say, thirty year olds would be like other thirty year olds, and the younger the child the more true that is, so that would be much more true at age a year, assuming that there aren't any physical defects or mental defects, than say at three. +So by three, yes, there is some variation, but they are certainly there is less variation than you would get at the end of the secondary school or university. +And are there quite specific stages that one can recognise perhaps as a developmental psychologist which take place at roughly particular times in a child's development? +Very broadly. +Could you give me some idea of what these might be in the very early years perhaps? +Perhaps I could, but whether I should is a different point. +I feel that once parents begin to become too aware of norms, they worry, and therefore unless a child is grossly out of sync, if you like, with their peers, I wouldn't say it would matter, but yes, one would expect a three year old to be talking at one extreme. +If there is no speech by three, indeed if there is no speech earlier than that, it might be very important to check that the child is not deaf. +I think also you would expect children who are really quite young, well before the first year, to be showing social interest in other adults around, and if they're not it might be worth checking that there isn't some problem with the child. +But generally speaking I'm not very happy about norms. +Oh well we won't press you on that particular point then. +There's been a lot of publicity recently about parents teaching their own children, rather formal things. +There have been one or two stories about youngsters who've become reached a very high level in mathematics, for example. +Are you in favour of parents teaching their own children? +Well can I come to that in a minute, because you said something I'd like to pick up. +You said the child may not be developing in the way the parent expects the child to develop, and I think that it's very important for parents to check out their expectations. +If they are expecting something that they haven't got, it may well be that their expectation is wrong. +What is important is the child that they have in front of them, and to learn to understand that child. +It's not it's brother or sister, or their brother or sister, it is unique, and it's pattern of development, although of course it will be broadly similar to other children, exactly like no other child, and in a sense I would feel that the parental job is to judge very carefully the needs and the developmental cycle of their own child, and then stimulate to the extent that that child needs. +Now having said that, of course, I've almost answered the other question, that I just do not believe there are any rules. +I mean maybe you're thinking of the sort of publicized cases of a nine year old, I believe it was, who's got A levels in mathematics. +I would not want to say that I could criticise that parent, because I don't know the background of it. +I would very much hope that other parents would not feel that they ought to be doing to the same thing, unless their circumstances were very similar. +If you have a child who appears to show a talent at one thing, then of course it's natural to let the child do what it enjoys doing, but that might be the very moment for saying well what is this child not talented at and ensuring that this child gets some experience of the kind of world that it not part of its own talents, so I would feel, from my own point of view and as a psychologist, that if you have a child who is very talented in mathematics, then fine, it's going to be quite good at mathematics one would assume, now's the time to say well is it as equally talented in music? +Are there other things that could develop? +Has it got erm a wide social relationship with other children? +So that at the end of the day one has a much more rounded individual with of course specific talents. +I'm not for holding back children. +I think parental anxieties are something with which one must have great sympathy because very often the anxiety is not so much an anxiety about the child, it's an anxiety about the parent. +If they have had difficulty in school they will worry that their child is having difficulty in school. +Now of course it may be that the child has caught a worry about schooling from the parent, but I think that's the first thing to sort out — is this really a problem in the child, or is it a problem in the parent's mind? +And secondly, I mean obviously parents are more worried if they feel that their child is not doing as well as somebody else's child, and we're back to this question of expectation again — where did they get the expectation that this other child is, as it were, some sort of norm that they ought to be living up to , and parents should talk to teachers and to other people who know their child and have got experience of their child as against other children to find out really whether their worries are truly grounded, or whether they are just groundless. +I think to come back to an earlier question of what should you teach them, and what is normal, is that ideally a child wants to grow up in an environment where his or her parents enjoy here, where the relationship is enjoyable on both sides and not shot through with anxiety about how well this child is developing, providing the development is within the normal range. +If the child has a special skill or the parent has a special interest and they enjoy together exchanging this skill or interest, like teaching a child to swim very young, teaching it to play or listen to music, or play very simple rhythmic sounds, then as long as it is done within a relationship that is, above all, a loving relationship, great. +But if it's done as a way of accelerating the child's development, in order, as it were, to give it the edge over its peers, that doesn't seem to me to suggest a relationship in which parent and child are enjoying each other ; it is much more a relationship in which the child is being prepared for competition with its peers and this, I feel, probably is going to turn out badly, because almost inevitably the child will not reach the levels that the parent has build up in fantasy in its own mind. +How do you feel about parents teaching children how to read? +I think it comes to the same thing. +If the parent feels they know a system that they have heard or read is successful, and if they try it out on the child and the child obviously enjoys it, if it becomes part of a game, then I can't see any harm in it, but I think the parent has to be scrupulously honest as to whether the child is enjoying it. +If there's any hint that the child isn't enjoying it then I don't think it should happen. +If parents really want to help their children, with reading specifically, I feel that Margaret Donaldson, who is and educational psychologist in Edinburgh, is correct when she points out that one of the greatest difficulties children have when they go to school is that many of them don't understand what kind of activity reading is. +For instance, they don't understand, as she quotes in her book, what somebody is doing when they're reading a newspaper, or what it means when the postman looks at a envelope. +Now if parents, through playing games with their children that are based on words, could alert the child to the fact that print is a convention and that we can translate print into reality, obviously not as abstract as that, but just get the child used to knowing what print is, knowing what reading is, so that perhaps when they go to school they may well know this is a skill that they don't have, like they don't know, perhaps, how to ride a bike, they may not know how to swim, they certainly don't know how to drive a car, but they do know what sort of a thing driving a car is. +In that way, I think they'd be much more prepared for learning the skill than if they go completely unprepared and see children looking at books and saying things and it makes no sense to them. +My last question is is really again about making children do things, as opposed to encouraging or helping them to do things. +You say that so far as you're concerned, it's all right for children to learn if in fact they're enjoying it and if in fact they want to and they're not being coerced. +Surely that makes the transition between home and school a rather traumatic one? +Having worked and been around the Brighton first schools for many years, I would very much hope that the transition is not traumatic. +Certainly, the most of the infant teachers I know take great pains to make sure that it is not traumatic and that the move from home to school is as easy as possible. +Now having said that, often the trauma, which goes back to my original remark, is the sheer number of children, the sort of social impact that a reception class can have. +Now if a parent can have introduced the child via nursery school to that amount of other children, then I think there should be very little trauma, but that isn't to say that as the child gets older they don't have to do things. +But if a child has to do something because they can understand the end a which they're aiming, in the way that a footballer has to train, or a boxer has to train, then it becomes easier to do the equivalent of training. +One of the difficulties is that the end state is so far removed from the average child that it is very difficult for them to see why they have to learn to read, but if they can realize that if they learn to read in those houses where they have it they'll be able to read the Radio Times and know what the television programmes are, that at least is motivating. +I mean reading as to be put in a context and a context that is, in fact, enjoyable to the child, not something that just happens at school that they have to do, hence one they go to school the value of parents hearing the children read, because then the parent is also involved and one doesn't get this split between home and school. +Well thank you very much, Jo. +Next week we're going to look at another facet of education — should girls be treated in school any differently from boys? +Dorothy Jerome and Carol Dyhouse will be providing some of the answers. +Hello. +This is the second programme in a short series in which we're taking a look at trends in science and engineering, particularly in the way that subjects are taught and opportunities for subsequent employment. +Today it's the turn of chemistry, and I have with me Ken Sedden, who's a lecturer in chemistry at the university. +Ken, the chemistry I did at school was full of test tubes and horrid smells, has it changed very much? +Not in the slightest. +The song may have changed, but the smell remains the same . +And do children really do the same chemistry that I did twenty years ago? +No, I think we understand the subject a little better now and therefore the theory has changed, but some of the practical remains very similar. +The way we interpret it changes with time. +It always used to be the case that one never did chemistry until the secondary school level. +Has it gone further back into the primary schools? +Not that I know of. +Chemistry is very much an advanced subject. +You need to have certain groundings in physics before you can even begin to appreciate chemistry. +Now I'm interested in you saying that chemistry is really physics. +Is that really the case? +Now, I didn't say that at all. +That's sounds like a physicist's interpretation of what a chemist is saying . +Physics, on the contrary, depends very much on chemistry, as chemistry depends on physics. +As you well know, there are certain basic rules which govern both subjects. +To understand chemistry at all you've got to have some idea of optics, for example, because you're actually looking at the reactions happening and you've got to appreciate what you see. +In the chemistry I did you seem to me to be terribly empirical, you had an inorganic substance and you had to learn absolute by heart what it did if you put it in water and you heated it and you did this that and the other. +Is that the same, or is there more in underlying, understanding and theory this time. +There is underlying, understanding and theory to this, but of course if you want to read French literature, you've got to learn the vocabulary; if you want to do chemistry you've got to know the elements and what order they come in, and there's always a certain amount of learning with any subject. +If you do physics I'm sure you've got to learn the laws of Newton. +And are there any more elements that have been discovered, for example? +There are some being found, but not stable ones erm we know all the elements which are going to be stable on the planet earth as we know it. +The ones that are being found are the very, very heavy ones which have very short lifetimes? +Extremely short. +I mean so short that it would be difficult to conceive of. +We're not used to thinking in those terms. +Now you, I understand, are an inorganic chemist. +That's right. +Now what can possibly be new in inorganic chemistry? +. +I mean surely that is a subject that's been around for a hundred years? +It has certainly been around for a hundred years, and it is probably the most vital of aspect of life as we know it today. +Almost anything that is going to be done in the future concerned with energy storage, energy conversion erm any new technology, is based on inorganic chemistry. +The whole of the microchip industry for making computers is based on the chemistry of silicon. +It's difficult to imagine a more modern field of endeavour than the microtechnology involved with microcomputers, yet that is based upon inorganic chemistry. +Now you mentioned the importance of inorganic chemistry in energy conversion. +Could you give me an example of that? +Yes, well the whole of the nuclear power industry, for example, is based on uranium, plutonium. +Inorganic chemistry, as you know, is a study of the chemistry of all the elements except carbon. +The whole of our modern energy industry is based, therefore, round inorganic chemistry, and there's a lot of new inorganic chemistry to be discovered. +There's another example, I believe, and that is that there are schemes whereby water can be split up into its components, hydrogen and oxygen, and hydrogen actually used as a fuel in various ways. +Absolutely. +Of course this is something for the future, the whole concept of hydrogen economy is well developed. +When the economics become right, when the petrol dries up, then the possibly of moving over from a gas based, petrol based, economy to hydrogen economy is a very real one, and of course again this is an exciting branch of inorganic chemistry which many people are looking at. +Where would you get the energy to actually split the water into hydrogen and oxygen? +From the sunlight, and that's where the inorganic chemistry comes in. +Inorganic compounds are used to absorb the sunlight and then pass it on to water. +They act as a sort of relay system. +What a sort of catalyst? +Exactly, exactly. +What would you do with the hydrogen when you've got it? +Hydrogen you can think of very much as a fuel in the manner of north sea gas and it's got a high calorific value, it burns well and, despite rumours, it's actually a very safe fuel as well. +And could you use hydrogen to run cars, for example? +Absolutely. +There are prototype cars running off hydrogen, as well prototype aeroplanes. +And would, in fact, hydrogen have any advantages over conventional hydrocarbons as a fuel? +The advantage of changing to hydrogen would be an economic advantage. +Once you've got a system based on a particular form of fuel, such as petrol or gas, there has to be strong incentive to change it if it works well. +The incentive would be purely economic. +Once the change has been made, then many advantages, of course, would be found for hydrogen economy. +And how far are we off such a possibility? +With the price of oil falling, then probably a long way. +As soon as the price of oil starts to go up again, then I'm sure that it would be looked at in a far more serious manner. +Well, perhaps so much for inorganic chemistry erm there's a whole subject of organic chemistry. +Absolutely. +Now, what's happening in organic chemistry at the moment? +Well, you're sitting looking very smart here in a suit, which I suspect is made out of organic fibres and the tie, which I suspect is made out or artificial organic fibres, and the shirt looks remarkably artificial too. +In other words, most people are now walking around wearing organic chemicals. +A lot of the food they eat isn't natural food, but in fact is synthetic organic food. +The whole medical profession is based on drugs, and the drugs are all made artificially. +All this is organic chemistry again. +So, again, organic chemistry is a booming industry, of which many, many people are being employed. +And have there been any specific breakthroughs in organic chemistry you can put your fingers on in recent years? +There are no outstanding flashes in organic chemistry, things move step by step, and the way they've moved over the past thirty or forty years is quite apparent if anybody looks round their home. +The number of pollums , plastics, medicines,has just been quite fantastic, but not the sudden flash of light, but the slow progress of a lot of people working together. +You mentioned just now about artificial foods, if I can put it that way. +Right. +There's a lot of people who are very concerned about this. +They're part of a back-to-nature campaign, and I suppose nature is equally organic in a way +Absolutely. +except it's as you find it, rather than being produced artificially. +Right. +Do you have any thoughts as to whether it's a good or a bad thing that food is produced artificially, as it were? +If we look to the future, then it's going to be absolutely essential that food be produced artificially, because the planet isn't going to be able to support the population which it's going to have on it. +There are good points and bad points about artificial food production, but then there's good points and bad points about natural food production too. +Used sensibly and carefully then I'm all in favour of artificial food production. +And are you in favour of, for example , using artificial fertilizers on to grow crops? +Absolutely. +I mean there's no question that that is the best way to do it. +Do you think there is not a danger in going too far too fast in developing these chemical compounds? +People are often worried about spraying crops, for example. +And quite rightly so too, but remember there's a natural compound that's simply been synthesised in nature. +All we would like to do in the lab is make that same compound in a different way, and many of the compounds which are used are the same as those found in nature, the only difference is they've been prepared in a test tube instead of being prepared in a plant. +But isn't nature a very delicate balance between various forces and various processes, and by people, not like yourself, but perhaps more industrially based people producing vast quantities of a given compound and spreading it almost indiscriminately, couldn't that erm seriously upset the balance of nature in a particular resource? +Absolutely, and that's whey we've got international agencies looking at exactly these things. +But how do you actually know, without a great deal of investigation and a great deal of control? +Aren't there enormous commercial pressures to use these compounds? +There will be, certainly, and it's necessary that there be pressures to keep things under control. +But a great deal of research and money needs to be invested when a new product and a completely new chemical comes on the market, and there's been many examples in the past of things being released. +I mean the famous case of the Thalidomide erm is obviously in everybody's mind. +Yes, of course, that's a very startling example of a drug which wasn't properly checked through before it was used on a mass basis. +Do you see any future in more careful controls on drugs, particularly drugs used to cure human ailments? +There has to always be a control and that control will necessarily involve experiments on animals and the animal pressure groups are doing more harm than they can ever conceivably imagine by trying to control experiments on animals, because if they don't experiment on animals a human somewhere is going to die. +What about experiments on humans? +Do you think these are allowable, as it were, from a moral point of view? +There always, with a new product, has to be the first experiment on a human, otherwise a new drug wouldn't come on the market. +If people are made aware of the risks and volunteer, then that's seems to be their own free choice, and if that is what they wish to do, then that it seen to be a perfectly fair about going of course it would be completely immoral to test a drug on somebody who wasn't aware of what was going on. +mhm +Where do you see the frontiers of chemistry at the moment? +What's happening? +The frontiers of chemistry lie in many directions erm the frontiers of chemistry, of course, meet the frontiers of physics and the frontiers of biology. +The energy crisis which we're in at the moment, and which will, although it's temporarily abating if we judge the prices on the oil market, will not go away, is one of the most important areas in which chemistry can contribute. +At the moment our whole economy is based on natural found hydrocarbons — oil, petrol — as these begin to run out, then we've got to find a way of making these or substitutes for them, and this is what chemistry is all about, making new compounds or making old compounds in new ways. +So the whole of the planet's energy existence depends upon research chemistry. +There are advances, as we've already talked about, in the microelectronics industry, because as computers become smaller and smaller, then they approach molecular dimensions and gain the realm of molecular reactions is the realm of chemistry, so physics and chemistry there intertwine absolutely inescapably. +In bio-chemistry drug design, using enzymes to produce, for example, methanol or efanol — huge advances again going on here. +But chemistry, remember, is the science of everything around you and you can't stop, therefore, advances in that field. +It's so fundamentally important. +Do you see chemistry as being almost the centre of science? +Well I, naturally, being a chemist , would say it's the centre of science, but quite seriously it is an extremely important area. +Chemistry and physics together are an unbeatable combination. +As a chemist, is there anything that you would really like to know, something you'd really like to discover, something that if you knew you could feel you could do a whole lot more chemistry? +There's no end to the number of things which any chemist would like to know. +I think from my own personal preference I would very much like to have an understanding of what happens at the interface between solids and liquids, because this affects so many different branches of chemistry and physics _ the understanding of what happens at interfaces will govern the understanding of what makes things stick together, what makes catalysis occur, the nature of rocks even. +It all boils down to interfaces, and I think that it is one of the more difficult areas of chemistry to work in and there's a lot of room for advancement there. +Lastly, is chemistry a good subject for a school child to think of going into? +It, in the nineteen eighties and nineteen nineties, must be one of the best subjects they could ever conceive of going into because the whole of the future of modern civilization depends on chemistry. +So you think there'll actually be jobs for chemists in the future. +Absolutely. +No question. +And what's the best training for a chemist? +The best training for a chemist is at school to take maths, physics and chemistry. +If his leaning is towards the physical side, or his leaning towards to biological side, to take chemistry, biology and physics, to take those subjects in the sixth form at A level, and then come straight to university and develop his inclinations in the way that he is here to do. +Well thank you very much, Ken. +That's all that we have time for today. +Next week I shall be talking about physics, and I shall be asking similar questions to Professor Ken Smith. +Until next week then. +Hello. +A few years ago Flanders and Swan wrote a patriotic song for this country. +It went ‘the English, the English, the English are best, I don't give you tuppence for all of the rest’. +In a few short verses not only did that celebrated pair dispose of our continental neighbours, but they also made it clear that the Irish, the Scots and the Welsh were suspect too. +That, of course, is not playing the game. +In fact it's quite positively going too far. +I have with me Professor Geoffrey Best, who I hope will help me do the decent thing by our partners. +Geoffrey, discussions about the Common Market, for example, tend to be carried out using rational arguments based on economics and legal principles, but don't you think that at the deepest level international relations depend on national characteristics? +Of course they do, and no treaty between two countries, or between one country and a group of others can hold together, unless in those countries there's a general disposition to maintain the treaty and play fair by it. +Take us and Europe now, isn't it odd that, after two world wars, in which our men who died, our nations sacrificed themselves in fighting what was thought to be the great German danger, we now find ourselves at least as much hostile to our allies in both of those wars — the French — as we do to the Germans, and if one could measure this sort of thing it might well be that in the British public at large you would find more sympathy towards the Germans than the French. +Now I offer that as a little illustration of the difficulties of saying that there are deep national dispositions between one nation and another, which exist inside in some sort of permanent, rock-like way. +And presumably the reasons for these suspicions and degrees of mistrust lie in history? +I mean, for example, the French, my impression is that we actually offended De Gaulle quite considerably during the war in terms of his pride as a Frenchman +Oh yes. +and in a sense he remembered this post-war and, being very instrumental in post-war political affairs, erm regarded the English with some degree of suspicion. +Is that right? +Certainly, but then De Gaulle was only the most recent of a line of French national leaders, going back at least as far as Joan of Arc, who have seen in the English, through most of the centuries, their main enemy, whereas of course we didn't come across Germany internationally at all until within the last ninety years. +I believe that they certainly exist because history has given to each contemporary people a cast of mind, a set of habits and attitudes in their conduct of their own affairs, in the state of their minds, in their attitudes towards others, which make them individual and peculiar. +I think history has done this, and by history I mean everything which has worked through history to produce that result — geography, climate, agriculture, economics. +I bundle all that together under history. +When national characteristics were talked about a hundred years ago, in the great days of Darwinism and eugenics and so on, it was a pseudo-scientific talk erm implying that there was some blood or racial characteristics which marked one people off from another, and this lay at the bottom of all that talk about Anglo-Saxon racial superiority, which erm led plenty of people in this country to suppose that erm the white peoples of Northern Europe and North America had some characteristics which made them superior to coloured people, and all kind of bogus scientific arguments followed from that. +Well by now it's perfectly clear that the suggestion that these characteristics rest in the blood and in race is wrong, but there remains this enormous field of characteristic garnered from a long historical process. +The British have been alone on their island for over a thousand years, without successful invasion. +That fact, and the fact of being in the island, separated from the land wars which every other country in Europe has had to cope with, have produced in the British by now a different state of mind about politics, about the state, about the military, and about foreigners. +In what way to they differ? +Well, if you're a Frenchman or a German, a Swede, an Italian, anyone in the Balkans, your culture has been created over centuries of invasions or struggles to resist invasion, it's as simple as that. +World War two was only a recent example of what had been an historical constant. +Every other nation on the continent got overrun by the axis powers in World War two, as nations had been overrun, or partly overrun, in wars for centuries past. +Once again, the British were not. +In Britain the defence of the country has been left for centuries to a Navy which did its work out of sight. +The most that the British knew about armies was that intermittently over four or five centuries they got together in a sort of militia or Home Guard in case the enemy arrived, and the necessity of a state to run the affairs of the country for the country's salvation, was never so present to the British mind as it always has been to the minds of most continental people. +So that's the difference perhaps at the political and miliary level, what are the differences perhaps at a more social level? +Ah well, when one thinks one sees these differences, and I believe that they are real. +Let's take Germany for a start. +After World War two, a lot of people hoped that the we'll call them the less agreeable characteristics of the German mind, would be changed by the traumatic experiences of the second total defeat in twenty years, physical destruction, national humiliation, embarrassment at having been made the collaborators of nazism and so on. +If anything should have shaken up a national psyche for the Germans it was World War two and what it did to them. +Have those things changed? +I used to think they had done. +When I heard reports of the changing physical shape of German women, that they were becoming a different breed of women we'd been told from the old, rather heavy, erm motherly plain sort of woman who characterised Germany womanhood before the Second World War, well now we read that their shape and their weight and so on corresponds much more to French or British and American norms. +German young people recently have shown a more revolutionary and radical sort of behaviour than one would have dreamt possible in the old Germany, but in this morning's paper I read of the results of erm a public opinion poll recently conducted by the German government about neo-nazism in Germany, showing what seems to be a rather alarming quantity of surviving interest in sympathy for old nazism. +I often hear from friends in the military business, because that's near my own sort of work, that the German part of NATO is the only really big and solid part of NATO, as if that military tradition has revived, found itself again. +I cannot venture to say whether the shake-up which we thought World War two might have given to Germany has done it. +The Continental idea of the Briton, which had a lot of truth in it, was that he was a phlegmatic, rather unemotional, certainly undemonstrative erm creature of a northern climate. +The French elaborated a lot of wonderful nonsense in the nineteenth century about the climate pauses of the British character, they said that because we all lived in the fog we were incapable of clear and distinct ideas, a sort of bogus science that you as a scientist would see through more quickly than people like me. +Well, Britain is the country which ought to have had the proletarian revolution before any other. +Marx thought it ought to. +I mean it was the firs industrial country. +It never had it. +There is something in the British political culture, and I call this a national characteristic once it gets deep into a culture, which has made British politics consistently less violent than others. +It's not because there isn't class war in Britain, there's obviously a very great deal of class war, but it's a kind of cold class war which doesn't erupt into the violences which have characterised French, Italian, Russian, Balkan, Spanish politics. +That links to a question I'd very much like to put to you, Geoffrey, and that is the British concept of doing the decent thing — I have the impression that that is almost the uniquely British concept. +If you meet people from other countries, they understand what you mean if you say to do the legal thing, or the just thing, or the right thing, in certain ways, but it seems to me to be a slightly soggy, but nevertheless very important, British concept of doing the decent thing, which may be just, may be legal, may not be either of those two, but the British man has a very clear sense of what it entails. +That's very important and very true. +It's directly connected with the speculations I was just making about possible changes in the British character . +I very much hope I'm wrong. +Orwell, you remember, that great Englishman who knew so much about our national character and wrote about it, some of his best essays characterised decency as a British peculiarity. +It's a rather vague term, as you say. +It meant something like to do with fair play and here one sees the sport fixation of the British, perhaps, mixed up in its roots. +It's something to do with gentlemanliness and the idea of the English gentleman, which has become a very influential one, not just in Britain, but it's been admired and copied in many other countries and this is an historical product. +It's something to do with an extraordinary oddity in British history, compared to world history generally. +Our production of an incorrupt public service. +There are few indications that that marvellous high level of incorruptibility has been cracking a little bit, aren't there? +But still I have no doubt at all it remains erm at the top of the international league and is much admired elsewhere. +Only in a few countries in Northern Europe, ours among them, is an incorrupt public service normal. +Are the British as bad and the French as good at sex as they claim to be? +. +I don't know. +Now you're getting into national characteristics of a most particular and private kind. +Certainly, the British attitude towards sex has excited a great deal of continental mirth for a long time, especially Latin mirth, I think. +Think of all those comedies which run for years in London with titles like ‘No Sex Please, We're British’ and all that. +There is some difference here. +Is it not a British peculiarity, this combination of public prudery with extreme puriance, extreme interest in sex and devious at that, and which fills the newspapers whenever public events give them an opportunity. +If we get into sexual behaviour, you'll have to ask Kinsey and his followers, not G. +Best. +And lastly, Geoffrey, is it fair to lump the English, the Scots, the Irish and the Welsh together in one compartment and call them British? +I remember that song that you mentioned that you quoted at the beginning of the programme ‘Look into the Irish, the Welsh and the Scot, you'll find he's a stinker as likely as not’ is how it went on . +It has been legitimate. +The British Empire and Commonwealth — it meant British, because it was run jointly by people from each of those countries, and they all got something out of it. +The Scots, in particular, got a hell of a lot out the Empire, proportionately the Scots had many more positions of influence and profit in the Empire than we did, and I think Scottish nationalism had it's economic roots in the last twenty/thirty years from a realization that the Empire's over, and that great outlet for Scottish energy, education and ambition was closed, therefore the Scots are shut up in the island as they used not to be. +I was in Scotland for twelve years and was once congratulating myself and my friends a the University of Edinburgh on being, as I thought, so cosmopolitan. +Here we were, Englishmen in Edinburgh, marvellous. +People from all over the world in this great eighteenth century city, very cosmopolitan. +‘No it's not’, said a Scots Nationalist friend one day — very rude to me —‘it's not cosmopolitan, it's colonial’, and he had been looking at me and thinking ‘here's one of those damned Englishmen sponging on the Scots, making a good thing out of them’. +The Scots and the Welsh and the Irish have clearly retained very strong national cultural characteristics, which have made it necessary for the student who wants to make accurate distinctions to say ‘British does mean something, and it's something to do with the Briton overseas’. +In proportion as we have lost that overseas extension of our power, I think the national differences within the British Isles are bound to show more, because they've lost the great common ground of shared activity they used to have. +Thank you very much, Geoffrey. +Next week I shall be talking with Tony Nuttall about Shakespeare and the reasons why he's still regarded by many people as the greatest playwright of all time. +Until next week, then, goodbye. +Hello. +In just under a month's time, Saturday June the fourteenth to be precise, the university will be holding its Silver Jubilee Open Day. +On that occasion we hope that as many people as possible will take the opportunity to visit us. +One of the features of that day will be a series of mini- lecturers on just about every conceivable subject, and during the next few Ideas In Action programmes I shall be talking to some of the lecturers about their topics, hopefully whetting your appetites sufficiently to want to join us on that day to hear more. +John Hag is a lecturer in mathematics and a statistician. +On the lighter side of his subject, he's made a study of gambling habits from a statistical view point, and during the Open Day he'll be giving a lecture entitled ‘Horse and Football Pools — Why you should Expect to Lose’. +John, it sounds like a mugs' game to me. +Why should people gamble if they're bound to lose? +Well people are not bound to lose, because some people do finish up ahead, but most people should expect to lose for the simple reason that bookies have got to make a living somehow, and therefore the odds that they offer to entice people to go in are such as to expect the bookie to make a profit, but that doesn't mean to say that I am against the idea of people going in for gambling. +I know that a very large number of people get a great deal of pleasure and fun out of gambling. +Some people make a living out of it — I don't — and I've absolutely nothing against that. +Let's have a look at the statistics of the matter. +Maybe football pools would be a good starter here. +Well football pools are a splendid started because recently somebody has won just over nine hundred thousand pounds, and it's interesting to note that he did this without exercising too much skill, as I'm sure he'd be the first to admit, because he enters the same numbers every week. +I heard him talking on the radio, in which he said he'd tried several methods of winning on the football pools and in the end decided that the easiest thing to do was to put in the same numbers each week and so he was not exercising any skill in deciding whether one pair of teams were likely to enter into a score draw than another pair, but he just trusted that, say, number thirty seven would turn up as a score draw this week. +mhm Does it make any sense to put in the same numbers _ does it add to the attraction from a statistical point of view, the likelihood to win? +That's a very interesting questions, very difficult to answer shortly. +Let me say why. +There are fifty five different numbers at the moment on the football pools, and if people made an investigation of the frequency with which certain matches were selected, then they'd find that certain numbers were selected far more frequently and others selected far less frequently than other numbers. +Now if you knew which numbers were selected less frequently than others, and you kept that information to yourself and you bet on those numbers that were selected less frequently, then unless there's any special reason why those numbers should produce fewer score draws than other numbers, you're giving yourself an advantage because on the weeks in which those numbers produce score draws there are fewer people who'll have them down as their numbers, and so there's more money around for those few people who have them down, including you, and so if you win, then you'd expect to win more money. +So you are essentially assuming that there's no skill in football pools, that it's essentially a random process and sometimes some teams win and sometimes they don't, but there's no overall skill in it. +It's a question of just choosing and what you are saying is that you can increase you payback, if I could put it that way, by choosing numbers which are for whatever reason less popular with some people, simply because the payback is larger on those days. +Broadly that. +I wouldn't go so far as to say there's no skill, because if you do have skill in identifying draws, then you'll increase your chances of winning by using your skill in identifying those draws, but how much you win depends very heavily on how many draws there are and how many other people choose those same draws. +So if there's one draw, for example, or one match which looks as though it stands out as an absolutely surefire score draw, and everybody puts it down, and it comes up as a score draw, then nobody gains anything. +You'd gain if you avoided putting that down as a score draw, especially of course if it didn't turn out to be a score draw. +Is there any point in paying out a lot of money each week. +I mean do you do better if you put in on a large stake as opposed to a small stake? +The more money you invest, the greater your chances of wining, but when you enter football pools you should be quite aware that the total amount of stake money that's returned to you in prizes is rather small. +Of every hundred pounds that's invested, round about forty pounds goes straight to the government in betting duty, round about thirty pounds goes to the football pools in expenses, commissions and profits, leaving round about thirty pounds to be returned in prizes, and so you can see that your rate of return on football pools is extremely small, but on the other hand a very large number of people do enter the football pools, and when they win they can win considerable sums of money and it can make absolute rational economic sense to go in for football pools because you are giving yourself a chance, no matter how small, of winning a sum of money that you wouldn't expect to come across in any other way of your life. +And the sort of payback, as it were, if you are lucky, is rather larger than the payback, say, in horse racing? +Ah, well. +I mean given that you've got a, oh I don't know, a pound you're going to spend a week in gambling entertainment, if I could put it that way, you'd do better to go in for the pools, because if you did have a win you might have a big one, than to put it on a horse — am I right? +Well, for a pound you have a much better chance of a big win on the football pools than on horses, but that's purely because of the odds offered. +As I have said, if you invest a pound, then on sheer rational expectations you should expect on average to get back thirty pence. +If you invested a pound on a horse, then the amount of money you'd expect to get back would depend on the odds that that horse was offered at, but if you confined yourself to horses that had a reasonable chance of winning, say, the sort of horses that tend to be offered at odds of, say, six or seven to one or better, then your average rate of return might be nearer ninety per cent than thirty per cent, so putting it one way betting a pound a week on the horses is a slower way of losing your money than betting a pound a week on football pools, but football pools gives you a much greater chance of winning an absolutely astonishing sum of money. +Let's talk about horse racing, but before we do so, one last question about football pools and that is that some people have systems — they come up with a whole range of numbers and combinations of things — does that make any sense at all? +It makes sense in what I said earlier about if you can identify numbers that are very seldom chosen, because when those numbers do come up then you're one of a small minority of winners and therefore your stake is larger. +The system ought to be to attempt to guess, or find out by other means, the numbers that other people are less likely to put down. +But of course this is self-defeating. +If a large number of people start doing this and start second at each other, you don't know what land your in. +Indeed . +Right, horse racing. +Now the rather depressing side of football pools as you only get twenty eight pounds in the hundred pounds back in an overall figure. +Is that similarly true for horse racing, or does more money come back to the punter? +It depends on your tactics in horse racing. +If you decided that you're really only interested in long priced horses because you wanted win a large sum of money, so you only started looking at horses that were offered at fifty to one or longer odds than that, then if you look at the statistics then you'll find that the rate of return on such bets is even lower than the rate of return that we've quoted on football pools, but on the other hand if you look at horses which are offered, say, at odds-on or at very low odds, evens, two to one and things like that, then the rate of return is pretty close to a hundred per cent of your money. +You're never going to get extremely rich by betting on horses at very low odds, unless you bet very large stakes, but on the other hand if you do bet frequently at horses that are two to one or two to one on, or something like that, then the statistics demonstrate that you can, over a season, just about break even, or you tend to just about break even. +That's very interesting. +What you're saying, essentially, is that if you just automatically put a bet on every outsider with long odds, say twenty to one or something, through an entire season, you're going to end up by losing money overall. +You'll perhaps only say if you put out a thousand pounds, you'll possibly get what three hundred pounds back or something like that? +Well, I don't have up-to-date figures because I haven't had the time to compile them, but I do know — I know it's twelve years ago, but — in nineteen seventy three if you look at horses that were offered at precisely fifty to one, then you'd find that there were five hundred and thirty horses offered at those odds during the whole of that season. +Four of them won. +Now you can work out for yourselves that if you'd been betting a pound on each of those horses you'd have finished up substantially down. +On the other hand, if you went to the other end of the scale and in that same season you looked at all horses that were offered at precisely two to one on, then you'll find that there were twenty two horses which were offered at those odds and fifteen of them won. +Now twenty two is not a large number, certainly not large enough for any statistical reliability to be placed on the result, but the fact remains that if you had bet on every single horse in that season at two to one on, and had bet the same amount, then you'd have finished ahead. +So, your advice for the gambler that actually wants to make money is to go for horses which have very low odds against them? +I wouldn't care to offer advice to gamblers, because I'm sure that people who bet on horses do things other than purely look at the odds the horse if offered at. +What people are doing when they're gambling on horses is placing their assessment of the horse's chance of winning against the odds offered by the bookie. +If the bookie appears to be offering unfavourable odds, then a gambler will tend not to bet, whereas if the bookie appears to have made a mistake by offering, say, odds of five to one on a horse that you think is a sure thing, then you'll place your money there. +So you will exercise some skill. +I'm taking here about pure, blind betting of someone who is not attempting to exercise any skill but is just looking at the odds offered by the bookies, and pointing out — and I'll have a table to demonstrate this in the talk I give at the Open Day — the way in which the rate of return on bets made in this way decreases steadily the longer the odds are offered. +If horses are offered at very short odds, odds-on, then the statistics demonstrate that overall you could do quite well by betting on them. +If they're offered at very long odds, the statistics demonstrate even more clearly although the odds are long they're not long enough to make the be fair. +I mean those horses offered at fifty to one could have been offered at a hundred to one and still the bookies would have finished up ahead, but of course those people those few people who'd at fifty to one would have one twice as much. +Finally, John, does it make a difference how popular a horse race is and how many horses there are in a race as to the odds against winning or the odds in favour of winning? +Yes it does. +Horses on which large sums of money are bet, such as the Grand National or the Derby, they are horses that the bookies pay a great deal of attention to and the overround that they calculate — they offer odds in such a way that you can't, by judiciously placing your bets, guarantee to win, and the overround is erm a thing that you can calculate which expresses, if you like, the average percentage in favour of the bookie on that race. +Now this overround tends to be larger in fields with a large number of runners, and also tends to be larger in these popular races, so that at times when there's lots of money around the bookies, of course, and we expect them to do this, are very careful to make sure that the odds are well in their favour, because on these races where there's lots of money staked their risk is higher. +John, I look forward to learning more about where to place my small bets on June the fourteenth. +Thank you very much. +Thank you. +Next week we shall be taking a look at quite a different subject. +Margaret Ducar will be talking about sexism in language and we'll be talking about how words used to refer to women and men reflect the inner quality between them, and also how the use of language by men and women in their everyday lives is related to the power differences between them. +Join us next Sunday. +Until then, goodbye. +Hello. +Continuing our serious on disasters, today we're going to talk about immunology — one of the ways in which the body defends itself against disease. +I recently spoke to Professor John Newsome-Davis about this complex but interesting subject. +I started by asking him ‘What is immunology?’? +The body has a defence system that protects it against outside invaders. +When a bacteria or a virus gets into us we have blood cells that attack the foreigner. +These blood cells can release antibodies, which are specific for the target, home onto it like a guided missile, and kill it. +And the immune system normally functions to protect us in this way, and is regulated in such a manner that it does not attack bits of oneself, but only legitimate foreign targets, and thereby is our ally. +And what goes wrong? +Well, perhaps all body systems occasionally go wrong, and this is true also of the immune system. +There seems to be in some patients a failure of recognition of self, and as a consequence the immune system turns inwards and begins to attack selected targets within the body, and when this happens disease may arise. +You gave examples in your talk about something called miocenia gravis, or M G as you call it. +What is this? +Miocenia gravis is a disease that has interested doctors, and laymen for that matter, for a very long time. +It's a disease that's characterised by fatiguable muscle weakness. +At the beginning of exercise strength is often good, and then it steadily declines with increasing effort and, in severe cases, patients are weak all the time; they can't see properly; they see double; their eyelids droop; they can't hold their heads up; they can't chew; they can't swallow; their arms and legs are weak; they can't peg out the clothes on the washing line; they can't walk upstairs, and in really severe cases they can't even breathe — unless they're supported on life support machines they would die. +So at its worst it is a seriously and life-threatening paralysing disease, but in its minor forms not really a great deal of trouble, although upsetting enough for the patients who have it. +Is this a new disease, something we've discovered recently, or has it been around for a long time? +It's, I am sure, been around for a very long time. +Indeed, there's an excellent description in the seventeenth century by the physician Thomas Willis of an honest and prudent woman, as he describes her, who erm, after much hasty speaking will become mute as a fish, and one might even fancifully look further back and wonder whether this fatiguable weakness wasn't something that erm that the Old Testament character, Samson, had. +You may remember that Samson was a man of enormous strength and then, following a liaison with Delila and her cutting off his hair, he was reported to have become as weak as a child — and yet there was an occasion, which led to his death, when he brought the whole temple down by pulling the pillars against which he was propped. +Now that kind of burst of strength would just be feasible for a miocenic. +You might then wonder what the cutting of the hair had to do with it — well, one of the features of auto-immune diseases is that they cluster within individuals and sometimes within an individual's family, and the reasons for that are that the immune responses that we have we inherit with our genes. +Now one of the auto-immune diseases that has been recognised is erm unusual baldness — it's called alopecia. +It isn't the ordinary baldness that we're all familiar with and see around us, but this is a different kind. +It may affect very young people and they may lose all their hair, and I have at least two patients with miocencia who are bald in this way, and this type of baldness is believed to be auto-immune, so I think that one could, perhaps, jokingly suggest that Samson may also have had alopecia and it wasn't Delila who cut off his hair, but his auto-antibodies that destroyed the hair making process, and all that makes poor Delila something of a victim of history and perhaps we should be springing to her defence. +It's something that goes wrong at the nerve muscle junctions? +In miocenia gravis that's true. +The problem is at the junction between nerve and muscle. +When we want to make a muscle contract the brain sends a nerve impulse through the spinal chord, into the peripheral nerves and out along those nerves to the muscle and each individual muscle fibre has a single junction, a nerve muscle junction, where the nerve makes contact with the muscle, and that is the site at which the stimulus leads to muscle contraction. +The process of transmitting the signal from the nerve to the muscle can be described quite simply. +There is, in fact, a narrow separation between the two and the way in which that separating bridge, if you like, is crossed is that the nerve terminal secrets a chemical. +When a nerve impulse gets there this chemical is released by the nerve terminal, crosses the narrow cleft and reacts with special receptors on the muscle side of the junction, which, when they're stimulated by this chemical, lead to muscle contraction. +Is the paralysis the same sort of paralysis you might get if you were bitten by a snake, for example? +Well that's an interesting erm parallel really. +There is, indeed, a snake — the Formosan banded krait — that gives you a type of instant miocencia, and the discovery that the venom of this animal contains a toxin that can do this has, indirectly, led to the elucidation of the mechanism behind miocenia gravis. +It turns out that the component in the venom of this snake that has such an effect binds to the muscle receptor on human muscle and other animals' muscles, and it binds there much more tightly than the natural chemical transmitter, which is called estialcodine , thereby preventing the transmission of the nerve impulse to the muscle and gives the victim instant miocenia and presumably a nice meal for the snake in due time. +Now the important thing about the toxin is not so much that it can paralyse its victim, but that biologists can use it, and they can use it because it's possible to label the toxin radioactively and then employ this to look at the distribution of receptors in patients with miocenia and characterise the receptors in other ways. +So do you actually allow snakes to bite human beings to +No, I'm glad to say that we don't do that. +What erm happens is that we obtain the toxin from erm from the from a serpentarium. +The people who care for these snakes are very clever at milking them and getting the venom from the animal safely, and this is then purified biochemically and erm sent to us as a dried product in a stoppered bottle and the snakes are a thousand miles away, I'm glad to say. +Oh that that doesn't make it quite so exciting. +Miocenia gravis, presumably, is not a very common disease in its own right — is it linked to other more common diseases, cancer, anything like that? +Miocenia gravis is not so very common. +The incidence is probably around six per hundred thousand in the population and erm that would mean that there are several thousand cases in the United Kingdom at any one time. +It does, interestingly, erm, as I think I mentioned earlier, it does associate with other auto-immune diseases and thus one can have somebody with miocenia gravis who may themselves have over active thyroid, which is an auto-immune disease, or may have other members of the family with the same disorder. +So, they can miocenia gravis can association erm with other diseases, but as far as cancer is concerned it doesn't in the ordinary sense associate with cancer. +It's erm true that a gland in the chest, called the thymus glad, that we know is very important controlling immune development in young people, is abnormal in miocenia. +In young miocenics the glad may be very over active when it should have become atrophied, and in some patients, not very many, there may be a benign tumour of the gland and erm but we don't think that that tumour does itself provoke the immune response, but there is a distant and rare cousin of miocenia gravis, the lampodetonmiocenic syndrome, where cancer does play a bigger part. +How about multiple sclerosis? +One of the reasons for studying miocenia gravis, where the disease processes are beginning to be understood more clearly, is the hope that this might elucidate diseases that are presently more obscure, like multiple sclerosis. +Yet the advances in multiple sclerosis in the last few years have been very encouraging. +It's now become clear that immunological factors are certainly involved. +We know that the immune system in that disease produces immunoglobulins (which are antibodies, in the spinal fluid, which is the fluid surrounding the brain and spinal chord)product antibodies there in the way that normal people do not, and there's evidence too that around the areas of damaged insulation in the central nervous system, which is the characteristic abnormality or lesion in this condition, there are cells that are known to be committed to making antibody, or to aiding the production of antibody. +So there is evidence that the immune system is caught up in the pathological process, but whether it's truly an auto-immune disease is not so clear. +There is quite good evidence that some external agent, possibly a virus, but that's certainly not proven, but some external factor is important in precipitating the disease. +And maybe the external factor interacts with the immune system and the immune system acting, over zealously as it were, not only responds to the invader, but leads to a bystander damage of the nervous system in the process. +It's possible that the increased understanding that we now have of miocenia gravis will help us to understand more about diseases such as multiple sclerosis which are, unhappily, much more common than miocenia gravis. +You've been kind enough to answer my rather specific questions. +I wonder if I could just take a step back in conclusion and ask you a couple of rather broader questions, more general questions. +The first is immunology — how has it really changed in the last, perhaps, decade or so? +Has it changed radically as a subject and as an activity? +I think the change in immunology and the advances in the last decade have been truly remarkable. +I think science has always been characterised by periods when particular subjects have had an enormous outburst of activity, and we're seeing that with erm immunology at the present time. +It's led to our understanding a number of diseases about which we were quite unclear in the past. +I've talked about miocenia gravis; there is it's rarer cousin, the syndrome, which sometimes associates with carcinoma of the lung, and we have shown that this too is an auto-immune disease in which the lung cancer seems to precipitate the immune system into making an antibody against it, the tumour, and the because the tumour has on its surface the same thing as the nerve terminal, the antibody also binds to the nerve terminal and causes trouble there. +It's beginning to help us to understand multiple sclerosis, and there are a number of hormonal or endocrine diseases, such as thyrotoxicosis, underactive thyroid disease, juvenile onset diabetes, rheumatoid arthritis, which are all immunological disorders and erm in which the advances of immunology have contributed to understanding. +Because the treatments are so specific does that mean to say the possibility of side effects are smaller. +One of the concerns that people have these days is the side effects of treatments — you cure the particular disease, but you create other problems which then go on and on. +Yes. +That that that is a just criticism and it has been made of immunological treatment. +I think that perhaps perhaps it's not all together just. +It's certainly true that the methods of treatment that we use in miocenia gravis at the moment are not specific. +In other words, although they suppress the aberrant antibody, they suppress other antibody production too and also the production of blood cells, yet they seem to have a greater effect on the abnormal antibody than they do on normal ones and in quite large numbers of patients that have been treated in this way the side effects are really relatively slight. +But occasional misfortunes do occur and that's unavoidable, although one must keep in mind that patients with severe forms of this disease who are untreated used to died, now they do not. +The treatment that we have available controls the illness and that means that the outlook in miocenia gravis and similar disorders is very much better than it used to be. +But, yes, we should be looking ahead. +We should be looking at ways of being more selective about treatment, and I think one of the reasons for wishing to study miocenia gravis in such detail is to be able to get so inside the mechanism of production of the disease that we can in fact simply turn off the miocenia disease process and leave the rest of the immune system just as it was. +Thank you very much, John. +That's all that we have time for today. +Because of the Sussex Charity Auction Appeal, there will not be a +Hello. +This programme is all about poetry. +Professor Laurence Learner is an English scholar at the university, but he's also well known for his verse, and it's about his verse I want to talk to him today. +Larry, how long have you been writing poetry? +Well I suppose more or less all my life. +I think if you asked that question to any poet he'd probably give that answer. +It so happens that I can remember the firsts serious poem that I wrote and published, which was actually when I was in my mid-twenties. +That still makes a good thirty years. +How do you decide about a subject. +Does it just come over you — I must write a poem about this? +Well that is the traditional idea of inspiration, isn't it? +In fact, no, I don't think that is so. +I think it's almost like asking somebody the question how do you decide what you're interested in, or how do you decide what's worrying you or upsetting you, or pleasing you. +I mean these things are niggling and if you write poems you would write a poem about it. +But in fact I do have very mechanical ways. +I mean I do happen to belong to a group of poets and we set one another subjects regularly. +We don't always write on them; sometimes you find that if somebody tells you to write a poem about windows you end up writing a poem about aeroplanes or whatever, and I actually like being told to do something from the outside because you'll discover almost immediately whether that's really something you want to write about or not. +The other possible way of answering your question is to think in terms of having a large project in which you would write a whole series of poems that would add up into a book, which as it happens I have just done, since I have just published a book of poems which are all retellings of bible stories, and there the subjects quite clearly came from the outside, though I mean unless they latch onto something inside you they won't make poems. +How do you set about it? +Do you sit down with a blank sheet of paper and think ‘I'm going to write a poem on the subject of windows, or bible stories’? +There is of course a famous poem by Mallarme on exactly that subject about how awful this white, virgin sheet of paper is. +I don't think I really know the answer to that question. +Although I would have kept all the notes and drafts and I could, therefore, reconstruct how a poem is written, it's my experience that once it's been written it's very hard for me to imagine back to the time when it wasn't written. +I spend a lot of time gloomily thinking I couldn't possibly write about that, and then eventually I do it. +Do you go through many different versions? +Less than I used to. +I used to fill pages and pages to produce a very short poem. +I think I now know sooner if it's not going to be any good, you know. +I'm speaking personally; every other person would answer differently. +It is necessary to have a lot of different stages, so that you're coming to it fresh each time, and I used to find when I was younger that that would mean putting it aside for several days. +Now I find if you put it aside for an hour or two and do something else you can already come to it fresh. +But you can actually sit down and write several poems to order? +Well, it depends what you mean to order. +I mean I could sit down and write a piece of doggerel about what we're doing now that rhymed and was comic and so on. +I could do that to order; that wouldn't be something I would dream of publishing. +It would be highly unlikely that it would turn out to be very interesting. +I mean when I wrote this book of bible poems in fact it took me a very long time and I started all sorts of subjects which I didn't finish, so, no, you have to be obedient to whether the poem intends to get written or not. +Are there any rules for writing poetry in the sense that does it have to rhyme, does it have to have a rhythm, does it have to have a particular for to be recognised and accepted as a piece of poetry as opposed, perhaps, to a piece of prose? +Well I mean you can't have rules without a police force, can you, and since there's no poets' union from which you could be expelled, clearly whether there are any rules depends entirely on the poets themselves and their readers, and everybody knows that until about the end of the nineteenth century almost all poetry was written in regular metre and regular patterns and, except for blank verse, in regular rhyme, and that this is no longer so and now you would either be deliberately old fashioned or you would have some special purpose, I think, if you wrote your poems in traditional rhyming schemes. +You could almost say there's a kind of rule that says you ought to write in fairly free verse nowadays and that you're making a kind of statement if you don't. +I mean in fact I write in reasonably free verse, but there are all sorts of purposes, especially satiric purposes, for which rhyme is still very important. +Am I right in supposing that one essential quality of poetry is that it is meant to be read aloud? +Well, yes, I believe that. +I mean there are a lot of people who will say that no longer applies to modern poetry because it is so complex and difficult and needs brooding on very carefully. +It is actually my experience that even the most difficult and complex modern poem, especially if you have read it beforehand, comes to life quite magically when it's read alone. +Larry, that is a cue, perhaps, for you to read us one of your poems. +Yes, right oh. +I'll start by reading a very simple poem, which is called ‘To Sarah Burge’. +Sarah Burge was a Barnardo child, who was photographed in eighteen eighty three — in fact we've just passed the centenary, I realize, of this occasion — at eight years old, and I've seen the photograph and it was, of course, used for fund raising purposes, but I wrote a poem to this obviously long dead girl. +‘You are wondering why the man has disappeared under a black hood. +What will he do to my face you're asking? +Will he tear out my eyes; will he lock up my lips; will he tangle my hair; what will he squirt at me; why was I chosen? +You were asking it then, you look out at us asking it now. +Well, I will tell you. +When you're lips tighten with growing he will plump them out; when you're eyes go hard and adult he will keep them dewy; when you're hair turns grey he will paint it black; he will wipe off rouge and years; push your teeth back in; erase your wrinkles. +Sixty years from now you will bless him. +He dead, and you dying, he gave you the kiss of life.’ +Thank you very much. +Can you remember how you chose that subject? +Oh well that's easy, because I saw the photograph. +You saw the photograph? +I saw it I actually saw it at an exhibition of Victorian photographs +Yes. +and I was very moved by the photograph and I ended up writing a poem to this little girl, and indeed one thing I can say, perhaps with some pride, is that Doctor Barnardos know about this poem, and somehow who was writing a history Barnardo children actually asked to use it in her book. +It's absolutely delightful. +So it's re-inserted itself into the real world, you could say. +That's very satisfying. +Have you got another one you can read to us? +Well I thought I might accompany it with another equally short poem, which is also about a child. +The difference being that this time the child is inside and not outside, and the poet is remembering his own childhood. +The poem is called ‘Implications’. +‘The implications of sunlight are everywhere. +Scarlet petals; the brushed grey of the rocks; all those greens, quietly rioting. +The hot streets where a child walks and I follow, forty years behind. +He notices nothing. +Turns past the familiar names. +The mountain, the sea in its lap, the sun on the stark rock, hibiscus, poinsettia, tear fibres that ache with disuse. +I long for his unwashed eyes. +I look up. +The same air, the same scarlet announcements, the huge sea flecked with sunlight, the same insistent mountain, the same child climbing slowly, the years like rocks above him in the ubiquitous sun.’ +Perhaps I should have said at the beginning, although I hope it's obvious, that the speaker of this poem is, of course, coming back to the town where he was born. +Can you remember the circumstances under which you wrote this poem? +Well that's another easy one — in fact, though, this wasn't in my mind. +We picked two poems on which it's very easy for me to answer that kind of question because of course I did go back to the town where I was born , and erm wrote actually quite a lot of poems — well a lot, a lot for me would be four or five in that situation — of which this is probably the most successful and this one I've put in a book. +Is there a therapeutic element about your poetry? +You mean therapeutic for me or for the reader? +No, for you. +Well that would imply that I was in a pretty bad way and normally wouldn't do +No, I don't think so, not necessarily, not in the more general sense of the word therapeutic. +Well. +I just wondered whether it was important for you to get it out; apart from any artistic creation, it did something important for yourself? +That's actually very difficult. +I mean I don't write for therapeutic purposes in the sense that you might imagine, you know, someone in a mental hospital would paint or do pottery or conceivably write in order to relieve the inner tensions. +I mean I guess I've got as many inner tensions as most of us, but I don't think of it in that way. +I mean I've been doing it for such a long time now it's important to me to go on doing it, but then that might be rather like it's important for you to go on doing physics, isn't it? +That you would feel that something had gone wrong if you were no longer able to do any physics. +But whether it's therapeutic for the reader is not for me to say. +I would hope, obviously, that I wrote poems that could sometimes speak to the reader's condition, and it would be too grandiose to say helped him to sort out his own feelings, but at least helped him to get a feeling of recognition and, if the poem is successful, you know, some kind of satisfaction that the feeling has been turned into that permanent form. +I suppose there's a sense in which poetry can only be shared with other people if there is some common experience, maybe at a deeper level some collective unconscious, otherwise I wouldn't be able to respond to your poetry? +Well you don't necessarily have to bring the collective unconscious, do you? +I mean most people's poems are on widespread human experiences. +We've all — take these two poems, we've all been children; most people have been in love; we're all we all think about our death; we all think about our parents; we all like stories and we all like stories that seem, you know, to deal with some primal central human experience, so I don't think you have to say anything more than what we all know already, that we all have a great deal in common with one another. +Do you have a feeling that poetry is taken more seriously these days than it was, perhaps, erm twenty or thirty years ago? +Are the great members of the public more likely to respond to poetry and recognise it as a serious endeavour? +I mean there are so many ways to take you question, isn't it — one way is to simply look at the sales of poetry books; well I have no idea, but my guess is that those perhaps haven't changed very much. +Well what, of course, has happened in the last generation or two is the growth of poetry readings. +That is to say there's hardly a well known poet in England now who doesn't go round reading his work on various public occasions. +The only ones who don't are those who don't want to like Philip Larkin, and there is a sense in which poems have — probably since I started writing — have been lifted off the page much more in the absolutely literal sense, that people are used to hearing them and can read them afterwards. +Larry, thank you very much indeed. +I would love to talk to you over a much longer period, but I'm afraid that's all that we have time for today. +Next week is the last programme in our current series and Peter Townsend will be talking about thermo-luminescence, which is a new technique in physics for dating pottery. +Until next Sunday, then, goodbye. +Hello. +A couple of months ago, an economist, Professor Ken Balding of the University of Colorado, gave a talk at the university on the subject ‘How do things go from bad to better?’ +It seemed to me that this would be an interesting and upbeat note on which to finish our current serious on the theme of disasters, so I asked him what he meant by human betterment. +What do we mean by things getting better rather than worse? +Then, if we ever find out what we mean by it, how do we do it? +That's a hundred year project. +And what we mean by it is a little vague, but that's really important. +That's is the erm the real world often is very vague, and it's a great mistake to be clear about it, but on the other hand it means something. +All human beings make evaluations all the time. +It occupies a good deal of our conversation, you know, ‘How are you?’, +‘What did you think of the play last night?’, +‘Are you having a good meeting?’, you know, and then of course all decisions involve human evaluations because a decision is a choice among alternative images of the future really and we evaluate these and pick out what we think is the best, obviously. +What economists call the theory of maximising behaviour, which is just flossy way of saying it. +We are making these evaluations all the time about ourselves, our own health, our economic status and of our families, our community, our county and the world as a whole — we make evaluations about this — and these aren't all the same, of course. +One of the problems is that erm different human beings make different evaluations. +The man who's just won an election usually thinks things have gone from to better and the man who's lost it thinks they have gone from bad to worse. +On the other hand, though, we do in society have erm all sorts of erm apparatuses and institutions, not necessarily for reconciling different evaluations, but for co-ordinating them I would say. +And then the other thing is I sometimes call preachments, such as the moral order essentially. +There's every erm every one of us lives in culture or sub-culture which criticises our own evaluations and, as I said, if you belong to a motor cycle gang and you don't like motor cycles you won't last very long . +Either you get out or you'd be pushed out. +And if you're a professor, well you have to like studying and you have to like reading and you have to like teaching and all these other things. +If you don't, you'll soon be out on your ear, so that they are all subjects of these persuasions, these moral persuasions, and then the overall society tends to criticize the values of the different sub-cultures within it, you see, and the Russians are rather nasty to the Baptists and we're rather nasty to the Communists. +And then these overall evaluations change too, so you have a long evolutionary process here, you see, the working out of human evaluations, and while you won't get you won't get total agreement that the you will erm some sort of co-ordination and the particularly I argue that while there's an area sort of in the middle, as it were, where you can get away with all sorts of things, you see, there are cliffs . +You will find some sort of agreement that erm well a nuclear war will take us very much to the worse, there's no question about it — war nearly always does. +And that erm a depression, the great depression was really everybody would agree it was a movement from bad to worse. +What you say is very plausible, but how do you actually decide that one state of the system is better than another state? +Well +I mean what is your criterion? +We are doing this all the time. +Yes. +And if somebody says ‘Well, are you feeling better today than you did yesterday?’ you'll give them some sort of answer. +If you're ill and somebody says are you getting better, you say ‘Well, no, I feel worse today’. +Supposing — let me stop you here — supposing you have a hundred people +Yes sir. +and you want to say now are they in a better state today than they were yesterday. +That's right. +How do you actually decide that in some reasonable way? +Do you say ‘Hands up all those that feel that they are better today than they were yesterday, or do you apply some perhaps more objective criteria of describing that? +Well, you see what you're talking about is subjective reality. +This is a very large part of it. +If you have a hundred people, as you say, well you can do all sorts of things; you can take a vote, or you can argue it out,until you come to some kind of consensus. +I spent some time in Japan. +I've always been fascinated working in Japan, because you don't take any parts, that erm they would just argue it out until somebody says well this is what we should do and everyone says ‘Yes, that's right, that's what we should do’ you see, so that erm there are all sorts of ways of doing this. +That's to solve a problem. +How do you actually decide whether a state of a system, or a group of people is better than one stage than another. +I mean do you sort of maximise the good of all, or do you use a criterion of everyone thinking that they themselves are happy, or is it some other means? +Well, there is a kind of waiting process here, that is in political life particularly, some people are more important than others in their political views and opinions and certainly depending on the nature of the society. +You may have erm an absolute dictatorship, in which the values of the dictator are that and nobody asks anybody else anything about it. +He or she just makes the evaluations and makes the decisions and that's that. +This is rather unstable, and it usually comes to an end in a funeral. +Funerals are very valuable politically, and then you usually get a kind of a shake down, you get some kind of group — in the Communist countries it's the polit bureau . +They make the basic decisions. +On the other hand, you can have something like the gang of four in China that creates such tensions and anxieties in the society and so many people get to feel that things have gone from bad to worse, that you get a shake up and change in the regime. +It's hard for any government to persist unless there are considerable numbers of people who regard it as legitimate, but legitimacy changes also, and if you make erm drastic mistakes you won't be re-elected like President Hoover . +So you're saying essentially that the only ultimate way of deciding that state a. +is better than state b. +is the people themselves vote that this is the has in some appropriate way, or not the case. +Or persuade or influence, or as I say even vote with their pocket books. +Ford Motor Company produced an Edsul years ago, and nobody liked it and so nobody bought it and so it soon went out of production. +You haven't got to think of this in terms of finding the answer for all time, because the answer changes all the time, but what you have is a continued process of approximate answers, but it isn't chaos. +It's meaningful and you may not, as I say, come out with any single and simple answer, in fact my own view really is that there's large area over which it doesn't matter very much. +One of the things I'm arguing really is what you might call the ultimate goodness, you see the thing goodness I just define as what goes up when you decide things are getting better and what goes down when things are getting worse . +This is related to all sorts of secondary goods, what I call the virtues and vices really. +Things like, well, riches and justice and freedom and large things like peace and large things like that you see, or just erm personal characteristics and subordinate good is something which when it goes up things get better and bad or an evil or a vice is something when it goes up things get worse. +You certainly all agree if there's an increase in crime, or cheating, or violence in the society, that these things are bad and as these things increase things change for the worse. +Another very important principle also is that these erm the relationship between the ultimate good — G I call it — and these subordinate ones is non-linear as a mathematician would say, that is that nearly every virtue becomes a vice if you have too much of it, you see. +One you can be thrifty, which is certainly a virtue, but to be a skinflint is a vice and this is true even of riches, even of economic development. +You can get too rich and beyond rich, you know, you're worse off getting richer. +Most people thinks that's a very long way off, but in the case of something like health then erm we certainly agree health is good for a very long way. +mhm +On the other hand we got into a discussion yesterday as to whether the medical profession isn't devoting too much of its energy just to keeping people alive who really ought to be dead. +So I mean perhaps they'd be better off dead, just keeping them alive in a state of sickness or in coma or something of this sort — there was a great discussion about this and that erm you see not even life is the ultimate good in a sense, you see, at some point death is better. +Death is a very good idea, otherwise you wouldn't have any babies. +I mean death is the price we pay for life, and at some point or other it's very desirable to depart from this world certainly. +What you're really saying is that a society which is perhaps stable, certainly better, is one in which there's a fair degree of moderation and a fair degree of evenness in terms of +Well +spread of erm assets and +Well it depends a little on it depends a little on the level, particularly with the impact of erm science on production in society, you see. +We've also been able to have a great deal more equality. +The level of equality in society is very closely related to it's level of productivity. +I was in China a few years ago and was fascinated to discover there was one bicycle for every thirty Chinese, and you see they're not going to be distributed very equally are they? +You can't have a thirtieth of a bicycle . +You might be able to have half a bicycle if you share it with somebody else, but there is not way of having a thirtieth of a bicycles. +So that bicycles in China are distributed very unequally. +I mean the people in the city the people in Peking have them, and the people out in the country don't. +Even more striking with automobiles — there was, I don't know, just a few thousand automobiles in China, and only the very very rich, who are the bureaucrats and the you see have them. +They drive around with chauffeurs erm most people from Peking drive bicycles and most people in the country walk. +So, on the whole, although you're not a physicist, clearly by your remarks you think that technology and progress in that sense is a good thing, rather than a bad thing. +Yes. +More bicycles for more people. +Up to a point you see. +Well when I come back to England today, as I do nearly every summer, it seems a fantastically rich and happier country than the one I grew up in. +I grew up in Liverpool, you see, back in the twenties, and the filth and the smoke and the poverty, I mean the grinding poverty, especially among the Irish in Liverpool, you don't see that today. +I mean the health of the country is enormously improved; the health of children is enormously improved. +I do think it is scandalous thing neglecting your educational system and you're going to pay for this for a hundred years, because riches just come by learning, that's all. +That's all it comes by is human learning, and you're neglecting that, you say, that is you aren't developing a learning society and you're going to pay for this and pay for this and pay for this, you see, and your children will pay for it, your grandchildren will pay for it, you see, just what you're doing to the educational system, what you're doing to the universities and you're so far behind from what erm most other modern countries are. +I mean it is you're even below Turkey, you know. +Below Turkey ? +Yes, and a proportion of people don't have education. +Yet learning is the only way that things get better. +This is my view, you see. +It is that you have to learn how to get rich and how to get peaceful and how to be, you know, how to have a good life +How to be happy? +How to be happy — you have to learn how to do it. +And, lastly, how do things go from bad to better? +Well, really by human learning. +Yes. +And by learning of erm mature values. +Learning how to love — you see a lot of it depends on benevolence, as I say, there's caring for other people, you see, developing a sense of community, you see, it is avoiding the sort of things we get into in Northern Ireland, erm Cyprus, Lebanon, where you get these absolutely nightmarish cultures of violence that just go on generation after generation and are utterly useless. +I mean they don't they just make everybody worse off. +How do you develop what we call positive sum games, in theory, things which make everybody better off. +I remember the corcus race in Alice in Wonderland, where Alice says everybody is one so everybody must have prizes. +That's what you look for, you see, you look for corcus races really and while conflict is perfectly real, and no question of that, but it tremendously easily becomes pathological and gets out of hand and a good deal of social organization consists really and how do you erm in a sense how do you keep people and societies from falling over these cliffs? +Partly is the developing realistic images of the future, a realistic image of the world and erm cultivating the right quantities of the right virtues. +That's about what it is. +Life is a corcus race, with prizes for all. +That's right. +Thank you very much, Professor Balding . +That's all that we have time for today. +The next programme will be on Sunday afternoon +Hello. +Continuing our short series on what is happening in education, today we're going to take a look at the impact microcomputers are making on the classroom. +Dudley Ward is a mathematician at the university, and someone who is particularly interested in the teaching of maths at school level. +Dudley, tell us about the revolution in school teaching caused by microcomputers. +Well I think the revolution is still coming. +I think teachers are naturally suspicious of new ideas, and rightly so. +They've seen lots of fashions come and go, so they're suspicious of microcomputers in many ways and the changes are happening so fast, I think many are sort of waiting to see what's going to happen before they commit themselves. +Talking about it as a revolution in the wider world, and how it impacts on classrooms, there has, of course, been a tremendously increased interest in using micros in schools in the last three years. +In East Sussex two or three years ago there was probably only one or two primary schools, say, with a microcomputer, and most secondary schools probably had one Commodore Pet computer. +Now I would be surprised if there were more than one or two primary schools which haven't got a microcomputer and of the secondary schools they've probably got seven or eight of varying sorts. +I can understand using microcomputers in secondary schools, that makes a certain amount of sense, but is there any sense in using computers in primary schools? +I think there's a lot of sense. +Firstly, when one thinks about using computers in schools, one tends to think of technology, and you think of people with white coats and dials and sort of science and technology and so forth, whereas I think in schools the big interest is in using a microcomputer as a teaching aid and as a support to other services and other ways of doing things, so it is just as relevant in a primary school as a secondary school. +Also, primary schools are more adaptable erm they haven't got the constraints; they haven't got the syllabuses to get through; they haven't got exams at the end of the year; they haven't got to the sort of subject departmentalization that you get in a secondary school. +So that if you say to a primary teacher ‘Here's a new toy, here's a new idea, why not try it?’ then they've got the opportunity to do so without sort of dramatically changing things. +You put a microcomputer into a primary classroom and it seems to fit. +The normal activity you'll find in a primary classroom is groups of children all doing different things scattered round the room. +There'll be a group making pots out of clay or out of plasticine; there'll be a group doing sums; there'll be a group working with the microcomputer, and that can be incorporated in to the group work pattern, and it can also be incorporated into the sort of topic and project work that a primary school does. +They're not quite so committed to doing maths in the morning and English in the afternoon, whereas in a secondary school it is quite difficult to bring in something as that's going to have such a dramatic effect as a micro without sort of the ripples actually perturbing things to a destructive degree. +Can I just say from a practical point of view, primary classes are fairly static sort of places, you've got the teacher in the class all day, and if they say well let's have a micro in our classroom today that can be done, whereas a secondary teacher tends to wander round the school with a load of books under one arm and a bag of equipment under the other arm, and they've also got to carry a micro round or move a micro from one classroom to another — it's physically difficult, so in practice the primary teachers seem to find it easier to fit in with micros. +But do you find that children really understand what they're doing at all in any sensible way? +Well they understand what they're doing in the same way as they understand what they're doing when they're watching a video. +They're using a machine to do something. +When they switch the television on they don't understand what's happening, and the same is true with a micro. +You see I think there's a confusion between teaching computer science and computer studies and learning about computers and using micros in education. +Teaching about computers is important, both technically and from the role they're going to have in the children's lives, but as I have said before the main interest, from an educational point of view, is using it as one would use a video tape or an overhead projector or a blackboard and a piece of chalk. +So it's not so much a device to study in its own right, it's a teaching aid in other words, a classroom aid. +Yes, that's right, and I think the software, that is the programs and material that's being produced to use with these machines, are becoming more sophisticated from the point of view of being made and more technically satisfactory, and therefore they're simpler to use. +So all the technical stuff's going on inside the machine, and the user is spared the problems of knowing how to work it. +Perhaps only three or four keys on the typewriter keyboard that the computer will have need to be pressed at all, and if a child presses the wrong one it doesn't all stop and funny, you know, impersonal messages come up on the screen saying he's done something wrong, it just ignores them and waits for one of the correct responses. +One of the difficulties, it seems to me, that exists in schools today is that the teacher has to cope with a fairly large class, and one possible advantage of having a fair number of microcomputers +mhm +available is that kids would be able to progress and their own level and independent of each other, and take the pressure of the teacher slightly. +Is that right? +Yes. +I think it can work that way, but I think many of us have a horror of a future picture of thirty kids sitting at thirty terminals, you know, pressing keys without any personal interaction with the teacher or with each other. +So, providing you say yes there will be occasions when the machine can take over some sort of part of the teacher's role, then fair enough, yes, but I think one of the interesting ways in which computers are used at the present time, particularly again in the primary school, is as orchestrators of group work. +You have three or four children sitting round the computer discussing, arguing, planning, working with the machine, and the machine is, as I say, co-ordinating their activities. +Maybe recording what they're doing, leading them, and the teacher can come in at appropriate moments to help it along. +So, yes, it can help the teacher, like a potter's wheel can help the teacher, or like a blackboard and a piece of chalk can help the teacher. +And certainly at the level of or two machines per school we're not quite in the league of having each child it it's own cell yet. +No, no, thank God. +I don't think it'll come. +What I would like to see, perhaps, is for every department in a secondary school to have a machine — every class, of course, to have a machine — and that's happening. +Your history department or geography department may say well if we had a micro we'd be able to do such and such and they'll think about that in competition with other needs — textbooks or whatever _ so you'll see departments using them, as I say, in the same way that we'd use other sophisticated aids. +One criticism that was levelled at calculators when they were widely available was that kids would start using them and really wouldn't understand basic arithmetic. +Could one make a similar accusation of microcomputers? +Well you could certainly say they could use them without understanding electronics, but that's probably a good thing. +I think a lot of people are put off computing by the thought that it's very technical and very difficult to get into, and I think in some ways it still is and there's a sort of group of experts who rather jealously guard their knowledge, so in that sense, yes, they could short cut and remove skills that perhaps people should have. +My son, who's in his teens, can't do long division, simply because he wasn't paying attention, presumably, at school, and he's always used a calculator since. +Yes. +Well I I think that's fair enough. +I don't expect he could use a slide rule either, and you and I might think that using a slide rule would be one of the marks of an educated man, but I think things move on. +Long division's pretty boring; I think what I would like every child to know is the fact that long division is just repeated subtraction and all the methods long division do is to formalize that repeated subtracted. +Well they know that, and if there's a machine that'll do the job, and if, when they've pressed the right buttons they can look at the answer and say ‘Yes, three point four's about right’ and so on, then that's good enough for me. +I mean can you solve square roots by hand? +Not without my acabus — does he mean abacus +Yes, well you see I remember learning how to solve square roots by the long division method, and I don't know whether there was a method for cube roots, but I suspect there was, but I never got on to that. +I suspect the teachers are not quite so enthusiastic some of them. +That's right, and they resist the revolution, as it were, and I think rightly so. +They've seen teaching machines come and go. +They've seen language labs, which are great, more or less mould away for lack of resources to keep them in working order, and they see micros coming in at a time when everything else is being cut. +They want new apparatus for their labs; they want new textbooks and new books in the library, and they find they're having to compete with bits for microcomputers and they say well what about a good book, isn't that better? +So I think they're right to be suspicious, and it's right for those people who feel they have a role it's up to them to make it appear interesting and to show them the relevance. +It's not the answer to all education's problems, of course. +But there's a sense in which the teachers themselves are going to have to learn new skills, both in terms of the sheer mechanics of handling these devices, but also in sort of learning how to use them best in their actual teaching. +Yes, and I think that second bit is the important part. +Honestly, I don't think it matters knowing how to program, or knowing how to make the machines actually work. +I think some teachers will do that for interest's sake, and good because probably teachers are probably the best people to design the software and the programs that the machines use. +No, it's knowing how to get the most out of it, the sort of simulation programs, the programs which lead children to think and to plan and to use these well is another skill. +But teachers are very enthusiastic. +They flock along to in-service courses. +They give up their weekends and their evenings and so on. +This university, for example, runs courses for teachers to learn how to handle the micro? +Indeed, we've been running courses for several years now, both for primary and secondary level, to help those teachers who are particularly enthusiastic, and also to form a sort of resource for them. +One of the things we've been doing this year is to actually have a club once a week, a sort of club night, when teachers can come it — this is particularly primary teachers — and use our machinery, look at our programs, go through our library and meet each other, so that the people who have got some expertise can then go back to the school and sort of spread their information and their enthusiasm in their schools. +That's the sort of role that we are trying to perform. +And that club could be joined by any teacher? +This year we've restricted it to primary, partly because we felt that's where the enthusiasm was, and partly, if people won't mind me saying so, to keep out the computer science specialists — we felt that, you know, we didn't want a club for boffins or for the experts, we wanted a club and we felt that if we started at the primary end, where there wasn't a lot of expertise, we would probably be of more use. +We're thinking of extending it next year to cover secondary. +Many schools in East and West Sussex belong and erm we get a regular attendance each Monday night. +So if there's any teacher who's listening to this programme who would like details of it, by writing in to you, Dudley Ward, at the university? +Oh yes, we'd send them an application form and tell them what we do. +Well I'm sure there'll be one or two respondents to that. +Lastly, Dudley, what's going to be the future? +More microcomputers, more use of them? +Can you see the future at all? +No, I mean two years ago I think we would have made wrong predictions about what's happening now. +I could make a few inspired guesses that the machinery will get, not so much cheaper, although it is getting a bit cheaper, but you'll get more for the same money — rather like calculators _ they haven't actually got very much cheaper in the last two or three years, but you get more for your fiver. +More memory. +More memory and more functions and more ability to store more information and so on, yes. +So I see that. +I see bigger screens. +It's quite a problem in a classroom — to have even a twenty six inch colour screen is not good enough. +Big, flat, colour screens, that would be nice. +Easy connections between machinery, so that you can just plug into a socket. +So there's going to be a shift towards easier to handle equipment, more friendly to the user. +That sounds a good point at which to finish. +User friendliness. +Thank you very much, Dudley. +That's all that we have time for today. +Next week + +Bring the letter here. +Oh! +You can give me one of those. +Mm. +Come here a second. +Come and sit down. +Is it a ? +It's from the Marc Angelo Food Bar which is the flying pizza delivery service. +What did you do at school today? +Wrote in my name book. +What's your name book? +You do your name in it. +Aha. +Sit down. +Well, tell dad what you told me about you're +And I got a star. +You got a star? +Well, tremendous! +Tremendous! +And it wasn't a sticker. +Well +Don't want any +Is it writing your name? +Mhm. +It wasn't a sticker star . +It wasn't a sticker star? +Mhm. +Which was it? +A drawn star? +A marking handwritten or +That's great! +Daddy, they've run out of gold ones. +Have you? +Mm. +Are they going to get some more? +Yes. +Good. +What's this then? +Good. +Er, son, you're looking at the menu. +Erm, it says it's a lamb curry. +Which is quite funny for a place that's supposed to be a pizza, flying pizza service and they curry. +Interesting! +Mhm. +Looks good. +What about erm what about tea? +What are you having? +Chosen that fish that . +Mhm. +Could do. +Get it cooked. +Daddy! +Mummy! +herself. +Mummy! +Mummy! +I made a new song up! +Did you? +What's that? +Elly Belly Bee. +Elly Belly Bee? +Elly Belly and Elly Bee when they grow up they'll both be . +Very good! +Mm. +Did you have that at singing today? +Mhm. +That's great. +Where's your brother? +There. +What have you got? +We don't want that on! +Come here a second. +No thank you! +No. +Come here a second. +Come and tell me about nursery. +She had to buy fifty pounds' worth. +How d'ya get on at nursery? +Cash. +Fifty pounds. +Of what? +Fish. +She bought fifty pound! +Who did? +Jenny. +Oh! +She's daft. +She said, did you get the fish stand? +The guy from Newcas +The guy from +the guy from Newcastle? +And I said, yes, I said, and I said we bought we bought a pack of each. +She said erm, she said oh oh! +She said, well we had to bu we,ma made it out that we had to buy erm the whole, the whole box, it cost them fifty pounds! +Fifty! +And you would of sold us that too if we hadn't asked them specifically what was in +Well +that. +I couldn't find freezer space that's why I +didn't push that. +Michael! +Yeah? +What did you do at nursery? +Er I played. +If you want to play with that Jonathan +What about +go upstairs. +what about glueings? +Okay. +What about glueings? +No glueings? +No glueings. +Can I go upstairs? +In a minute! +In a minute! +I just want to find out what you've all been doing today. +Daddy's +Oh. +interested. +So put that down for a second will we? +Play with it later. +We can do. +No glueings? +No gotten +Forgotten? +Forgot. +Thank you. +That's better. +Painting? +Yep! +Forgotten again. +Forgot. +Got. +How can you forget? +Did you tell your ma daddy that Mrs was off sick today? +Who? +Mrs . +Yeah she is. +But she's not your teacher is she? +No. +Poor Mrs got two lots of children and they were driving her up the wall! +Did she? +Did she have everybody? +Yes. +And they were all mischievous, including you know who. +Er, I got a seat this time! +And you got a seat this time . +Good! +That's terrific! +I got one of those square seats. +A square seat? +Were they square? +Were you +did you play? +Er +What did you play? +Daddy, I was making +making the keys. +Making what? +Keys? +. +Mm. +Making keys on the play board on the piano. +Those are keys look daddy! +Those are er sharp and flat notes. +What keys are these? +They change the erm +What? +the tone, they change the tone. +But that's it. +That's it. +What did you have for lunch? +Er I had eggs +Daddy. +sausage. +Eggs and sausage ? +Mhm. +Daddy! +Daddy! +And what else? +Daddy. +Nothing. +Look! +I can +Egg and sausage? +What kind +I will +of egg? +Yes, I've been, I've been looking at this and see what I can play. +See what you can play? +Mm. +Mm. +Daddy's burnt the toast! +Toast! +Oh! +My toast. +Silly me! +Fire! +That wasn't very clever was it? +Burning the toast like that. +No. +Egg and sausage? +What kind of egg? +Mm? +Don't know. +Was it a whole egg with th the yolk in the middle? +Mm. +Or was it scrambled egg? +Mm. +Scrambled egg? +All mashed up? +Yes. +That's good. +Daddy! +Daddy! +Dad I want to play +That's good, that's good for you. +the piano you just had there. +No potatoes? +No. +No? +Why not? +Only a pudding and some juice. +Oh really! +What kind of juice? +Orange. +When did they stop doing potatoes? +Haven't had chips for a while. +But it's something like a health week or something. +Mm, the twenty fourth of February. +You can't get chips? +That is. +No. +They said +No chips at all? +said all this week this week I think. +How miserable life's going to be for you. +No chips!! +Dear! +Dear! +I think they'll come back. +Michael! +But Jonathan you are supposed to have +Are you hungry? +something else in place of chips. +You're supposed to have mashed potato or boiled potatoes. +I mean, just because you don't have chips doesn't mean to say you can stop taking potatoes . +He's just fallen down the stairs! +I fell! +He went +You fell? +How far did you fall? +That far. +I think. +That far . +Right down to the bottom. +This, this high? +Right down to the bottom. +Yeah, it was only about four steps. +You big clot! +Mummy! +You're a great clot +Why are you working on that on the stairs and anyway I went right down to the bottom! +Did you? +Did you hurt yourself? +That's because there are coats on the stairs that you fell over! +Well you know where the coats should be. +Put your coats in Mi in Michael's bedroom. +It went up to there and slipped down again. +Wasn't funny! +I didn't say it was funny, but you look funny. +No,I don't . +Yes you do. +Yes +No. +you do. +Come on. +Let's sort things out. +Yeah. +Yeah. +That's great. +Richard phoned. +Seeing what I'm doing. +He's playing golf tomorrow. +I said er couldn't because of Johnny's er appointment. +Well if it's too much I'm planning, I'm getting tomorrow, you can just get a check over, just wanted his blood test. +It's the discussing it that I want too. +I see. +, but the consultant might do. +Yes but she can give advice. +Yeah. +She's quite attractive actually. +Erm +I think Michael . +I'm not sure. +I'll see. +But it's far too early for me but I'm just interested +Well very. +in what they've found. +But what did he say he had? +Egg and sausage! +Yeah, I'll tell you what got more sausage. +Boys! +Come down a sec. +I don't want to go to +Come on. +tonight. +Where did you put that mince? +seen them. +I didn't put the mince anywhere! +You said there was mince in the freezer. +I can. +On the top. +Where's that ? +Mum! +At this rate actually I might try this Marc Angelo Food Bar and see what it's like. +We've got ham with eggs on and I'm gonna +That +take one. +Can I do one? +We'll see. +Me? +You won't do it again? +Alright. +Give me that. +Go and tell daddy what you did at nursery. +Jonathan, never mind go and tell daddy! +You come and tell daddy. +Oh! +God! +What did you say? +What did I say? +I thought you might be +What did I say? +I am reading a menu. +Well I've got it now. +Now don't bring it down and play it here because +I know. +you make a dreadful noise! +And I want you to come and we'll sort things out. +D'ya know what's on the T V tonight? +What? +One of your favourites. +And this time it's the one programme that you can watch. +I want a . +What? +The Crystal Maze. +Yeah! +I've got it! +You like that don't you? +Aha. +What? +I can mend it. +The Crystal Maze is on tonight. +Daddy I can look. +Cos I looked it up in the paper! +Daddy, I may not see that one. +Stew +Two, three, four +Well they can have stew and +five +what have you. +six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve +That's +thirteen +They're not bothered. +fourteen, fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, eighteen, nineteen +I'll sort out later what, what I'm gonna have. +Nineteen! +We'll see. +And +That's daddy's machine, don't touch it. +Don't touch it I said! +Leave it! +I can't hear any music. +It's not for music it one of those, his machine for work. +What does it do? +It doesn't do anything Jonathan! +I want to know what it +He uses it for taping i at work. +But er, why's the I can't hear it. +It's not working just now, mummy's just recharging it. +Just leave it just now. +Leave it. +Recharge it. +Recharging +What's +it yes. +Er er er, er er er er. +Mummy, can I have some more juice? +Sit down there. +Erm +Sit down. +Do you want me to play some games or something? +Yeah! +Good! +I don't wanna play my +Ah! +Snakes and Ladders! +Do Snakes and Ladders, will you promise not to cheat? +Ha! +Okay. +That one. +That one eh? +Go and sit down then, so I'll do it. +I want that one. +Ah? +I want that one. +Oh. +Michael . +Right okay. +Let's play the game! +We are, we're +Ah! +here. +Play it! +Play +Hey! +That is how mess gets made chucking that around like that. +Right. +This is easy. +Is it? +Do you want your milk? +Phew! +Right. +What are you going for mum? +I'm going for a red. +You just, the two of you play. +No, I don't wanna play. +Yeah. +I'm just tidying up Jonathan I've been cleaning it. +But +You start, you play this game, I'll join in the next game, okay? +Okay. +Watch the . +You just put that down. +Which way are you +I'm going over here. +Are you yellow Michael? +Ah. +Whe I'm here. +Mummy, we've got Mum, you get up slide and then we don't go to there. +Well, I'll help you, I'll be round, I'll be here helping but I must I want to get on with some work. +Okay? +Alright. +Right. +Yeah, but I'll make it +Pick a colour. +What? +Pick a colour. +Yeah. +I'm black. +And Michael's got red and yellow. +They've only got up to these ones, we don't know which numbers they are. +Erm well I'll help you. +Jonathan should know the numbers. +I don't know that one. +No you +He does nay not know that one. +I'll help you. +But I won't be sitting playing I'm gonna just pop backwards and forwards. +If you come to problems I'll come to your help. +Pick a colour. +But, mum +Pick a colour. +my, my, I, I, I aren't you gonna ? +I thought any colour, it's you who is playing. +Mummy +What +mummy! +I've got a good idea mummy! +We could do your go for you. +Yes you could do. +That will get complicated, you'll get muddled up. +Yeah. +Yeah. +Your a +Mummy I'll go for blue. +Right you're blue then. +I'm gonna, I'm gonna be that colour +You're the yellow. +I'm the red. +No, mummy's got +I've got +to go first. +I'm the red! +I'm the red! +I'm the red! +The top one. +Here. +I'm red or +I'm gotta get +Alright. +my trousers +Well +back on. +Aye do. +Michael, I'm starting first. +So give the dice to me. +Do you not realize +how cold it was out there? +Mm? +No. +Not till I get this side, ah! +Ah, you're standing on them here! +Oh sorry . +No, no you didn't know my feet was there. +No I didn't. +I didn't see it. +No. +Not . +I'm starting first ! +Here. +Don't whine will you Jonathan! +I'm starting +Jonathan! +first . +Stop whining! +Jonathan, I'm, I'm +If you're not gonna play it nicely I'll put it away. +When I get trousers on I'll . +Right. +I'm nearly there. +There. +Okay. +That's good. +Unless you go outside in shorts in this weather. +Middle of January! +One, two, three four, five, six +Move this lot. +seven, eight, nine, ten! +Right. +What have you got? +Five. +What have you got to get to to +One +One, two, three, four, five. +Oh well we'll forget about the six to start with it takes too long. +Five is here. +Right. +And can you move yours five Jonathan. +Okay. +What colour are you? +Red. +I'm, I'm this colour. +Ooh! +One, two +What colour's that Michael? +three +Green +four +No. +Yellow. +Yes. +There. +I should be on five. +Aha. +There. +Fifty five! +Oh yeah. +Oh! +Sorry. +I'm just going onto there. +Er, behind the ladders isn't it? +You can either go right across in front of it, you'll have to go to a number. +Right Michael. +But can you play with cos I get +I'll help you get started, mummy's gotta get on darling I've got tons to do! +Well I don't know which number mine is. +Right which colour did you have? +Give him the dice. +Oh! +Boom! +Jonathan, stop that! +There. +What number's that? +One. +One. +Right, get onto one. +You're yellow. +You're yellow. +Yeah, that's right. +Here. +Or that one. +I'm not red though mum. +Here. +Yeah. +Well put it on there. +Oi! +You go up. +Don't you? +You go up . +So you do Jonathan, I missed that, well done. +Yeah. +Ooh! +You're at thirty eight already. +Er, mummy I +I +so that means I've gotta go up. +No, you don't go up. +Cos you had five. +One, one, two, three, four, five. +Right. +Throw your dice again. +I've just . +You wanna . +If you get five do you throw the dice again cos you get five. +No, you don't. +Six,you throw the dice again. +Six, you get two goes at it. +Did I get a five? +He didn't take it. +you got on. +That's it. +So +Well don't throw it miles away, just throw it into, onto the board. +Three. +Right. +Which way did you, one is yours? +One +One, two +two, three! +Great. +Ooh! +I've best got to get one of tho with this ladder on. +Right. +Oh! +And I onto Michael. +Hope for a one eh? +Come on. +There. +That +Well +was there. +well you've got to throw it. +This is a ! +Oh! +Ah! +And you've got the one. +Right, which way are you going? +You're going that way Michael, put yours up that way one. +So is that ? +Yes. +One, two, three. +One. +Move it one. +Yes. +Right. +We're lucky this is big. +Phew! +Right Jonathan. +Phew! +That's it. +Now if there's any messing around it's being ri put away. +Ooh! +Six. +Six! +Oh great! +I'm going I get to go I get another go ! +Right. +Four. +Where's yours? +Move yours. +Right. +I get +One, two +another go, yeah ! +I, who's helping +Three. +me? +Four, five, six. +Six, right. +Have another go for the +Michael! +You're scrunching the board. +Get off! +But, I'm . +No, you had help the last +Six again ! +Yeah. +You can go and take another go. +So this +Have another go. +move your six. +I'm getting higher. +Mum! +He's kicking me! +Oh! +He didn't mean to. +Concentrate. +Phew! +Move it that way Jonathan, six. +One, two, three, four, five six. +Right. +Go again. +If it's another six I think +Two. +it's a fix. +Up up one, two. +Two. +Right. +Now your turn. +There's a one. +Mummy! +When you top at, stop at there you go down one six. +Look! +I didn't do a six. +Mum, look. +Look. +You didn't do a six. +Do you think that'll make a difference do you? +Go on then, have another shot. +Oh no. +Two. +Er +One. +no, one. +Right. +That way. +Into the, onto the . +One. +Mummy, you're left behind! +I'm not playing, you're playing. +I'll play +Oh. +next time if there's if there's still time. +Right Jonathan, your turn. +One. +go! +Two. +One two. +I'm next to Michael! +Two. +Right. +Michael. +Want a go? +I've got a six! +Oh! +Six! +Six. +Six! +I take it you'll want another go? +Right. +Go and pick your dice up. +I'll get it. +Cos you'll need another go won't you? +Yes. +Yeah +So +I'll get Michael's when I bring my thing up. +, one +No. +No, bring it up the way, up the way +No I'm just I want +Oh! +Let him do it.. +Oh golly! +Look at this! +Let me ! +Oh stop it Michael! +I'll put it away if you don't sta behave like that! +No . +Right. +Yellow one up to the green. +Ah! +Er er er! +I'll do it for him. +Er! +Er! +Let him do it else there'll be there'll be eruptions. +One. +Come on Michael, hurry up if you want to do it. +This one +No, I've gotta throw the dice. +No! +You gotta move your thing first. +No I'll do it +You've +Right. +got to +Mummy do it for you. +Mm mm. +One, two, three, four, five, six. +Thirty six you're on, okay? +Wow! +Right, throw your dice again. +Where's the dice? +Let's hope you get another six, eh? +Yeah, and then you'll get horrible. +Oh! +Wow! +Is that six? +I've got +Yeah! +Yeah! +Yeah! +Yeah ! +That's great. +Come and have +There. +another shot. +Are you +Ho . +are you gonna move it this time? +Right, move it this way. +Here. +Move it. +No,. +Move it to me. +One +two, three, four, five, six, you're on the red one now okay? +Yeah. +My turn! +Oh another turn. +He's got another turn to go. +Oh! +Go on. +Four. +Ah! +Oh! +Oh! +Oh! +Oh! +Four is good. +Four's just as good. +Move it four places. +Move it one, two, three +Four! +Oh oh! +Four. +Mm. +You've gone down. +Ah oh! +You don't go down, you go back. +Go down zzzzooooo! +Down the snake. +Look. +Never mind. +Never mind. +Oh oh. +You've had three, three goes instead of +you've had lots of goes. +whee whoo! +Now I'm away. +Oh oh . +I'm not playing that, that +Oh well done Jonathan! +I'm not +Look! +Michael get off the board! +Oh! +Great! +There. +Was it there? +There. +It's not there. +Right. +Jo Michael! +Do that again and the game is put away! +Mummy, I got a six! +Oh great! +I'm the +What? +winner! +Run all over the board like that. +I sa +A six. +Move, just up to the green, that way. +One, two, three, four, five, six. +Right. +Aye, get off the board though. +And try not to scrunch up the board if you do it +Mm. +Five! +Five. +Right. +Up +One, two, three, four +Alright. +five. +I go up the ladder! +You go up a ladder! +Wo woo! +Mm. +Put +Mi Michael can we have two goes? +I go +Yeah. +up a ladder ! +You've had two goes. +Your turn now Michael. +Ah ah, ah ah . +Give Michael the thingybob. +Two dice. +Two +The dice. +I got a six ! +And I've not got any shoes on. +Away from that from the board. +Now sit down and throw your dice. +I got oh ! +Definitely a six. +What an awful lot of sixes today. +a six! +Right. +That means erm somebody's using funny dices. +Which one's you? +This one's yours. +Have you done a six? +Erm +The red six? +one, two, three, four, five, six. +Go again. +Five. +One, two, three, four, five. +And you've missed a snake +One +so you're okay. +one, two, three, four, five. +It was lucky. +Right. +Come on Johnny. +Okay! +One, a two. +Whee! +It's just a five, eh? +Down! +Right, so can you move to the side? +Ah! +What num highest number's you're on s s sixty seven, you've got sixty six that side, and sixty eight that side, which way should you go? +That way. +That's right. +Well done. +One, two, three +Four. +four, five +Stop! +Five. +six. +Five is what you got. +Oh. +If I remember rightly. +Okay. +Mummy, when do you stop at the hedge to go down? +You do excuse you! +What do you say? +Pardon me. +Here. +That's good. +Watch. +Now I'm don't do a six. +Look just there +What? +behind you. +Come on then.. +What? +Right. +So +Och. +Yeah, a six. +Was that a proper er throw was it? +Was more like a drop and come out your hand. +Okay. +Yours is the yellow one. +Here we are. +One, two, three, four, five, six. +Go again. +Ah! +Four. +One ! +One! +One! +One! +Okay. +Jonathan. +This time I hope six! +Six again! +Look! +How many times do I have to tell you don't run over the board! +You move all the +Six! +counters off it we don't know where you are. +Want me to do it cos I'm closer? +Yeah. +One, two, three, four, five six. +You're at the wrong end of the snake, you're okay. +Go again. +One. +One! +One. +Erm I could, I could go there. +Wasn't there Jonathan. +What number was it on? +It was on seventy. +Gee! +Cos you really drive your mummy to a limit. +One. +Okay. +Give it to Michael to throw. +I got two! +Michael got two. +Erm +Er, I got a one, there's a one. +Well mummy's jus just going to, cos look what happens when you go in one. +Whoo! +Right +Great! +up to there. +Golly! +Right. +Right. +Your turn Johnny. +Okay. +Well, try and do it without standing all over the board. +That's a boy! +One. +One. +Now wo is one gonna be good for you? +I think it just might be. +You've got seventy eight that way, and you've got eighty that way and you're on seventy nine, which way should you go? +Well done. +I climb up up the ladder! +Climb up again. +I win! +Oh no! +Jonathan's won! +You've won! +Yes! +Right up to the hundred. +Ha! +Ye now it's Michael's +Now you've gotta get one to get off the board is that right? +Is that +What? +how daddy plays it? +What? +Gotta get one to go off gotta go off the board, you've gotta go and pick, one to get off. +Okay. +Here Jonathan. +Right, do you want to see if you can catch up? +Look at this he's got the +Two. +right round +Two! +Two! +Two. +Oh dear! +Look! +Oh dear! +Oh dear! +One +One Two! +two. +He got a snake ! +Whee ooh! +Never mind when you get back to other ladder you might get back up again. +Right Jonathan see if you can get one to get off. +Okay. +One. +I just need one to get +Right. +If you go, get more than one you have to go back. +Or for or forward. +Right, throw it, I'll show you what I mean. +Throw the dice. +Right. +Go back. +I know! +Throw the dice. +You want as low a one as possible. +You are after a one. +Three. +So this is what happens if you get three. +One, two three. +Oh! +Oh! +Okay? +And if you get to there you're back down here again. +No ! +Okay? +Oh no ! +Right. +Come on Johnny. +Michael. +I've got to get there. +Ah! +Ah! +Right. +It's your go, four. +One, two, three, four, five, six. +Okay. +Throw again. +And the same. +colour, look! +Yes. +So it is. +Three. +I'll get it. +Er, er +Right, right, your throw Jonathan. +Pick it up. +Right, you're getting the left +It's your turn. +of me. +I got one ! +A two. +Ooh! +Jonathan. +One +One +two ooh ooh ooh! +Two. +Well done! +Well done. +Well done, you're the winner. +But it was a very good second. +Very good second was Michael. +Okay. +Can you help with, this, I got a second . +Do you want to have a go by yourselves? +What's that, a different game? +Put this one away, can you put it away Jonathan? +Yeah, I'll put it away. +Come on boys, show me how clever you are at tidying up. +Mm. +Can you let me do it, yeah I'll do it. +I'll do it! +Are you bored? +No. +Let's make this . +Let's shut that door cos it's . +I'll do it. +Me ee! +Mummy. +Mummy when we take it out and can we play that other game? +Yes. +But you could +I'm tidying, I'm tidying these things away. +Well you put we one away first before you get another one out. +You know the rules. +No. +I know the rules. +Do you? +Look at the mess of this house! +Mummy, what's, what's a make? +I don't know. +Well it makes a big ? +Like I've got one. +What does r red and yellow make? +Orange. +You should know that. +I know. +You got that book. +Do you know ? +And what does what will green and red make? +Er er, green. +Ah ah, er yellow. +Orange. +No. +Brown. +That's re red and blue. +There. +There. +No green and +Dunno! +yellow. +Dunno. +Right okay, it's numbers as well. +Can you manage that Michael? +Do you want use the ones that make the, use dominoes with pictures on it? +Mm? +Duck dominoes? +Duck? +You stay there, I'll go and get them for you? +What's the duck? +Duck dominoes, it's got pictures of ducks, do you remember? +Yeah. +Alright. +Sit down and I'll bring it through. +Erm +Okay. +Duck! +I, mm, I know that game. +Ducks. +With . +Watch. +Mum, I want that other one, duck game. +Well that's well let him play otherwise he'll have that funny turn. +One, two, three, four! +Da da da . +No ! +Mummy, we don't need these instructions we know what to do. +Do you? +Oh good. +Do you want a two or a one? +I'm taking this one out with the ducks. +Mummy I'm taking these out. +Michael, you've gotta get the last one there. +Got the ducks. +Mummy! +I've gone and got them! +I've got them! +Look. +Yes. +Is it okay? +Yeah. +Okay. +Great! +And, and remember how many erm those. +Yeah, got to have some of each. +What? +Are you gonna use the duck side or are you gonna use the picture sides? +The duck side. +I know. +Can you use the duck side? +Choose the duck side? +This one. +You're starting the +This side? +This side. +Yes? +Yes? +Decided? +No. +Yes or no? +No. +You want to use the picture side or the duck side? +Duck side. +I'm using the duck side. +Well you've both got to do the same if you're playing the same game Jonathan. +Alright. +We'll do the duck side. +Oh great! +Now we've got to get this one. +I said, oh great. +Then I'll have to do that one. +I'll have to do this one. +Right, well play hi his way for this, this time okay? +Okay. +And then he'll have a go if you're still interested. +Oh and you +Have you, what's that? +Right, d'ya got, you know what you've got to do? +Match up the pictures. +If you put a pussycat down and a bear, say that was down there you've got to match up with that duck. +Okay? +A want to give them a shuffle for speed. +Ours doesn't need a shuffle. +Look at these +Then you'll have to you have to do that lot there. +Do you know how to shuffle? +I know. +I'll show mummy I want to +Right shuffle. +I'll shuffle them. +Shuffle. +Shuffle. +It's hard. +Shuffle them then . +Not er +I'll shuffle them all up. +Give you some more to shuffle. +That's facing the wrong way. +Get off! +You take one off oh! +That's a good way to shuffle! +Right. +Shuffle them on the ground. +Yeah. +You +Right. +go all over. +Okay. +I think that was gonna say that was well shuffled. +Right show the faces. +I had them well shuffled mummy. +Right. +Can you count out, can you count Jonathan's enough to dish dish them out to him? +Look at that . +Deal them out. +Deal them out. +You can be the dealer. +You've got to give the same numbers +You've got two bears. +got to give the same number to Jonathan as you give to yourself. +Alright? +You've got two bears. +Ten? +Give the same number to Jonathan to Michael as you give to yourself. +Mummy I got two bears. +Er, I'm five, I'm five so I've got to do five, okay? +Jonathan. +Not quite . +Deal them out till you've finished, one to you, one to Michael, one to you, one to Michael, one to you, one to Michael and then you get +Okay, I'll deal mummy. +Okay. +I'll show you how. +One to you +One to me +to Mi +I know. +one to +One to +you. +th one to me. +But can you help me? +one to mummy +No, just Michael. +You've got to help us. +One to you one to Michael, one to you +Mm. +That's it. +Okay. +Then when you've done that if you've got a spare one put it down on the, on the ground. +My, my duck haven't got to say this, that, that and that? +Got to say that. +Mm. +Cos it's gotta be the same picture, you're gonna match it aren't you? +I've got two of them! +Yes, well that's the idea. +Three. +Pick it up Jonathan. +You go again. +And you've gotta count how many you got each. +No, no, no, you just pushed yourself out. +Now, count how many you got. +We'll, we'll count ours Michael. +One. +To yourself. +Two. +You can count ours Jonathan. +One, two, three, four, five, six oh itchy! +Seven, eight, nine +Look. +ten, eleven +Eleven. +twelve, thirteen, fourteen. +It's nine +What's that, fourteen? +Shh! +ten eleven +Eleven +twelve thirteen fourteen. +we both got fourteen, so there's no spare ones so we'll just have to er, right Jonathan, you put you put one down. +Okay. +Oh! +Let's put that one +Ducks. +down. +We'll put that one down will we? +Yeah. +Right you're to match it with a bear. +Well mummy I've got to have two of them. +Well that's cos it's going down. +Okay? +You have a look see if you've got a bear. +Looked in your pile? +Yeah. +Got a bear down there. +No. +Just a bear on its own, not a bear and a welly. +Shall we start er that again?. +Mm. +Ya. +Okay? +Alright? +Don't Jonathan! +No, that was yo I'll put this down. +Have a look. +Just goes, like that. +Right. +Makes a difference does it, on the other side? +It's a double bear Michael . +Doesn't matter which side you look. +Okay Jonathan. +Righto. +Right. +I've got a dog. +I trust you not to cheat okay? +A, a car! +Right, you've got to look for a car, or a bear. +If you've got the car you got to put it so you can +Car. +join it up with the way you got, that way. +Make interesting shapes won't you? +Mummy. +Look, I got one of them now +That, I'll show it to daddy when he comes in tonight. +Right. +Michael, your turn. +What you looking for? +Er +What you looking for? +A dog, or a bear. +A dog or the bear. +A dog or a bear. +Oh yeah, I think you got just keep away from the from the centre. +Doggy! +Doggy! +Yes. +I got +That's a good idea. +If you got two of the same you should try and get rid of those. +There. +Ma +Right. +mummy can you help me cos I don't know what I'm doing. +You're doing fine. +Carry on the way you've been doing. +A mummy I've got, I've got a car or a welly boot with a teddy in it. +Well it's not either of those you're looking for. +Have a look through your pile of cards see what you've got. +Looking for +Dog! +Dog! +Dog and a bear. +Well, decide which end you're gonna put that one on. +Er, I'll go for a dog. +Now you're looking for a bear. +Mummy, you're looking for +I'll go for the bear. +Mummy, you're looking a bear! +A dog or a dog ! +Okay! +Don't shout, I'm not +A dog +deaf. +or a dog. +Dog or a dog. +Michael's looking for that Michael look for a dog or a dog. +Erm ah +Look for a dog. +I can't! +Er find a dog! +It's up there! +Is that a dog there mummy ? +a dog. +I I got a dog. +Put it around the dog. +Or +Dog. +Do I have to do this mummy? +Oh no, that's a . +Try that door mummy. +Oh yes. +Mummy! +The wheelbarrow or a dog ? +Er it's a wheelbarrow and a dog. +Look. +A wheelbarrow or a dog? +Right. +Okay. +I'm going for +Who's turn is it? +I'm going for a wheelbarrow. +Right. +It's Jonathan's turn. +Where does that have to go, on top of the +No! +You can ju that doesn't if you want to! +Mummy's +See? +dropped a drawing pin in the kitchen so keep your eyes open for it. +Tee-hee! +Cos you'll get a se se se sharp pain in the foot if you stand on that. +Somewhere around. +I'm good. +Oh Michael! +You're not anyway. +You're not anyway! +I, I yeah, I've got a dog. +I've got a dog! +It's a car, or a dog ! +No, it's a I can't see cos Michael +It's a car or a car mummy ? +It's a car or a car. +Don't shou I'm not deaf, don't shout! +Er, I'll go have I got a car? +I've found a car ! +Mummy, I've got a car. +I'll go th +It's a scooter. +My turn. +It's not a car Jonathan +No it's not yours. +it's a scooter. +I know, because +Scooter! +No, here's a bear. +That's a bear's scooter. +The bear's on a scooter. +Right. +Whose turn is it? +Whose turn is it? +It's Michael's turn now. +Well look for a bear or a scooter. +Bear or +Urgh! +Yuk! +I just trod on your creature. +Urgh! +My creature . +He didn't, he thought you +No bears. +I've got a bike, I've got a I don't like +No, that won't do, but it was one of those there. +I'll do it. +Look. +Mummy. +Mummy ! +It's a scooter or a sa bear again look. +Right. +I'll go for the have I scooter or a bear? +This house is like a Jonathan! +A scooter or a bike then. +You'll have to start being a lot tidier. +Mummy! +I've found a scooter. +I found one of those scooters. +What's that? +I just dunno where to start! +But if you get one of them +it looks bell to me. +Mummy if you get one for me. +No. +But that's right. +We could go down and then, that way, and then we'll all go to this way, and then join it up again. +That's Snap you're thinking of Michael. +Snap when you ! +And er +I want to play Snap! +Well play this first. +Keep one +We're finished innit? +And after doing that +Yeah I +and after that then we'll +it, it's a, tied up cat or a bear. +Tied up cat or a bear. +Yeah. +Mummy. +I'll go for a tied up cat. +If I've got one. +I think I've got one. +Let's see. +I didn't do, you've got a bear. +Look at that bear! +Yes, you're right . +No. +I'll put +You can +it anywhere you want mate. +Anywhere you want. +Okay. +So, so I think that, and that goes on here. +Yeah. +Three rows. +Shall we do that? +Doo doo da doo doo! +Er! +Er! +Stop! +You have to stop. +Mummy! +I'm going for now it's Michael's turn and he's not going for anything. +I'm a tied up cat. +A tied up can you do it for Michael. +Mummy! +That's the one I've been looking for! +It's my one now cos I've got that. +Now it's a car or a be +Mummy, it's a car or a it's a +Alright! +welly with a teddy in it. +Alright! +Just, just do it, don't need to keep telling me. +Your go. +It's yours. +Okay. +Right. +Michael's turn now. +No it's a scooter! +Oh no! +And a car. +A scooter and a car. +A scooter and a car! +No it isn't a scooter and a car! +Cos I've got e mummy! +It, mummy, it's a scooter and . +Well just do it Jonathan. +Just do it! +Now it's your turn Michael. +Ah! +Is there any in there? +Yeah. +Give me it! +I've got a daddy! +Oh no! +I've got a wheelbarrow. +I've got +Mm mm. +I've got I've got that. +Mummy, I've got that. +I've got a tied up cat. +Ah! +No! +No! +Ah! +A welly! +A welly! +A welly! +Good. +A welly! +I don't want a +Tied up cat. +Aha! +Mum, look. +I've got a tied up cat here. +Oh. +Where's the you've got a chance to go of course. +Oh yeah. +Picture. +Ah mama ma ma, mama mama ma ma ma ! +Oh! +You're messing them up. +Oh! +Shoo! +A . +These are sure good. +Here. +Look at this. +I've got a oh! +I need a doggy or a scooter. +I need a I need a doggy. +Good. +Oh no! +Mummy, I can't go! +Mummy, I can't go! +I can't go, mummy! +Look . +Jonathan stop +I want both a doggy +whingeing! +or a scooter. +Right! +Michael have another go. +You don't need to whine about it! +I, I, yeah, I'll give you this dog. +Well look here +Oh thank you. +Thank you Michael. +Let's have a look, come on you got all these +Michael gave me a dog. +Well that isn't the idea . +Well you usually miss a go you go that Michael has a go. +If you can't go you miss your turn. +Just the same as you with the other game. +Right then, that's Michael's. +Right. +That's +No. +Michael's. +Now can you go? +Mummy I can't +No. +Well let's, let's see yours. +I can't see. +Er, Michael's +No! +turn to go. +And, and you, do you want +Well you +I can't go. +Can't go? +So you miss another turn. +Wait till Michael, have another go. +Oh! +Michael! +You're clumsy aren't you? +Yes, he's a clumsy boy all the time. +Yeah, I'm clumsy. +See +Ah, ah ah! +You're standing all over them! +I know! +Dear, oh dear! +Dear dear! +I've got to fix the ! +Ah! +You can't see them properly I'm sure you +Right. +see me. +There, there. +Right. +It's your turn again. +Okay. +So, have a look for a scooter +I'm not +or +er +wellies. +or some wellies. +Right you've got double wellies there look. +Ah yeah! +You put double wellies +I've got wellies as well have I? +If you put wellies down you're blocking him for another turn aren't you? +Tactics. +Put it over there. +Oh! +Without standing all over the +Now he'll have to wait again! +Yes. +You see, well this is what you call game tactics. +You've gotta try and pu you +Is this your go? +Right +Ooh, ooh ooh ooh! +that means you haven't got, got one spot +I'm +so that you, so you can +I've got the ! +There's nobody here that's winning, come on. +Your turn again because he can't go. +Jonathan can't go. +Welly. +Right, get rid of your welly. +Put your welly down. +We that's this time you can +I got a wheelbarrow! +Oh good! +I've got a double wheelbarrow! +Right, see if you can go. +Woo! +Ooh! +Me er this just get rid +Eh! +of it. +So Michael +Throw it. +Oh no! +Michael can go. +Never mind Michael, let's just play, finish this game off. +Ah! +Oh! +Oh! +A whe wheelbarrow. +I've got a double cat! +Be careful if your +It's a, look! +Michael! +Look there! +I've got a Michael has to, Michael has to +Jump. +Mummy, look, Michael hasn't got double cat. +Mummy! +Michael hasn't got +No +a double +but he's got a scooter. +And a ball. +A cat. +And I was, and a wee wa wee car. +I know, Michael you've got a scooter! +Mm. +Put it down then. +I've got a scooter. +Well a scooter's a scooter and that's it. +You can't +Right. +do that! +Michael! +It's a bear or a car. +Good boy for putting your hand up your mouth. +That's great. +No. +We're all getting in the act here. +Car! +That's mine there. +The creature jumped very high. +Anyway, I think it's a draw cos Mi Jonathan, Michael had two shots . +Oh! +Eh, oh! +A draw, I don't know how we managed that. +No! +I've the bear! +Woo! +Yeah. +Woo! +That was a close one wasn't it? +Right, start that le no now we have we're gonna play with this runway it goes three, two +It won't, it won't go up. +Oh Mi well you've just broken it! +No I haven't. +No watch. +Choo! +Cos you don't play. +What did yo +Hello! +It's Wendy. +Oh hello! +Hello. +Hello Wendy! +How you doing? +Oh I'm just sitting here having had a long, well erm I I've just had a, a chat with Gillian who erm rang me up and we were on the phone for about half an hour I suppose, she's some lucky girl! +She's just been er, come for erm,Stobo Castle for two or three days. +Oh! +Erm, it's an arm and a leg but I think she feels that she ritually deserves it er you know. +Aha. +I mean it costs about a hundred and twenty three pounds a day +basic without the extras! +Good grief! +And she went on a party of three, no, no, she went with a party of four friends I think, there were five of them altogether and er she stayed for well er, three nights, four days, or four days, three nights I can't remember no, it must have been four days, four nights, three days. +Anyway, and it was all such a, a resounding success so I, I was regaled with all the details of what she, and in what she had indulged and er, she said she went in more for the pi er she didn't go in for erm aromatherapy and the reflexology and the facials and the manicures and things, she went in for loads of bicycling and exercising and er and steam baths and things . +Ah. +Sounds wonderful! +It sounded more like, she says to me I think you should save up Norma and +Mm! +you know, really go and do th have a pamper to the, and I said, oh yes Gillian I will, but the she said and go with Marion because you get a twenty five percent reduction if you share a room. +I thought, well Mari would be the very last place that Marion and I would want to go to! +And, and in fact, the very thought of spending nigh on five hundred pounds for erm er for +Phworgh! +you know, for a few days like that, I mean th it, it,I al almost shudder at the thought because there's so much else I would, you know, prefer to do with five hundred pounds. +Mm. +I know. +Anyway, er so I thought for a , I've had a large of the press today which is, it's a very tense case indeed. +Mm. +Yes. +Erm +Mm. +he arrived and had a spot of haggis, bought one left over. +And, and, and +You mean he, mean he scrounged lunch out of you too did he? +Well I, we'd finished lunch and erm he, he, er I just said to him, what would you like? +Would you like a pie or there's some haggis, neeps and potato left? +And he said, ah! +That sounds good. +And erm course +and he was , you know, even in the micro it went and +Mm. +there was really quite a lot left over. +He, he said oh, you know, you, he really enjoyed it. +Er, and I was glad he did +You'd think I +because +you'd think I'd never fed him! +Well, you wo certainly would have thought so today I must admit but erm he er, no he, he in fact did a couple of good works when he was here. +Oh did he? +Just, yeah well he, he put two springs into the top oven of my cooker and which erm, he, even he admits really hasn't made one +Mhm. +much difference to the door, but at least it doesn't flop down now and I don't have to stick a bit of cardboard in. +But, you know, at least +Mhm. +it stays up, erm, but it's a bit dodgy. +And the other thing is that it's erm er, er Jeremy had er er, inadvertently really, er I, I know that I could have crowned him when he did it, but he was getting er, taking the lamp from the bookcase erm, which is at the end of the bookcase through to his own room to use temporarily because in trying to get the shade off his, the old one there, he, he snapped the fitting, and why, when he did that, erm, he er, disconnected the phone and of course, wiped out all the memory you know, the numbers that that you put in! +Ah no! +Ya! +Ya. +And of course, er Chris was astonished when I told him, and he said but why, you know, mum it shouldn't do that, it should re be retained, you know +Mhm. +the entries so he said. +That's right, it should. +So anyway, I said, well it hasn't happened Chris because I, I tried to ring you, you know +Mhm. +er by pressing enter and one cos you're number one on the, on the, on the list. +So +Ooh! +We're honoured ! +Yes. +Top of the list. +And er +Mhm. +I said, I'm afraid erm, you know, that so he, he had to take some time, er, we ha we took some time to find the book of the words which +Mhm. +the erm eventually found the bookcase. +I thought I'd put it there, looked through and couldn't find it, we were in every drawer in the blooming house! +Anyway, I went back to the bookcase and Chris, in fact, also came and we looked for them, he said, here it is! +Anyway, you know, I'd been er, it has been staring me in the face for so often. +Er, so often +That's always the case. +Mm. +Did you erm, get the phone fixed by the erm, G P O? +Ma erm Chris said you were having problems. +Yes. +Yes. +And did they have to come in and +Erm +sort the line? +Was it the line? +But that was erm, over a fortnight ago and they came and they er, rewired er, rewired the house, in fact Doctor +Really? +was here, right +Mm. +through the blooming utility room! +And do you know when they came? +No. +They came a fortnight past Saturday afternoon when the match was on! +Oh no! +Ya. +Ya. +Well you could have left them to it. +I know. +But that was service, of course, you know. +Mm mm. +But I was showing Chris my erm, you know, telephone bill which I was so horrified to discover was something like a hundred and nine pounds! +Wow! +And, he said I don't how you do this, you know,yo I really don't know how you manage to run up a bill like that. +And I said, well I don't know either, I think I ought to get some, er my, my bill, you know, detailed +Mhm. +er because I said I, I only phone Marion once a month and phone mum probably about once a fortnight, I don't like to leave it any longer and erm and I said I know I made a few extra calls over Christmas, but I said I really don't know. +And I never phone unless I can erm, well you know if I can possibly avoid it I never phone at the most expensive time of day, I avoid mornings like the plague if I can possibly manage +Mhm. +so and erm, and still my total number of calls come to seventy odd pounds but then, over above that is rental and then VAT +Mhm. +and it comes to a hundred and nine pounds. +Did you, with the new phone did you get rid of the, the other? +I did, and they, oh Chris erm happened to notice that they have charged for a new phone that I haven't got. +Ah! +Ya. +So it's just as well I let Chris have a look at that bill. +Aha. +Yeah. +But it's +Well it's +only, I mean, it's, er they've +What a cheek! +said, they've said, removed one Statesman of a telephone and then provided one Statesman telephone which of course they +Ha! +haven't done. +So, I'm going to phone up erm the billing place, as they call it, it's an O eight +hundred number to +Mhm. +it's a free number, I shall phone them tomorrow and erm or Monday,th I mean, it's only a rental is,th th the rental itself is three eighty a quarter, it's not as if it's +Mhm. +an exorbitant or extortionate amount, but erm +But,th +anyway +they'll probably charge you for putting it in as well. +Erm, well I don't know Wendy, I'll have to go into that when I, I don't think they have, I don't know that they have charged me for, well they've certainly charged me for the new wiring. +Well I think, I think you do have to pay for that, I know +Really? +mum, mum wanted one of these new, new sockets to put th erm th one that you can sort of clip out clip in +Yes. +and they sa said that they were they would charge for putting all the new wiring in, although you're still paying for th you know the +Yes. +That's right. +having the, the blooming thing in the house and +Yes. +for the rental +Yes. +they st they'll, they charge you for that. +Ya. +I know. +They're +Mm. +going charge eighty pound something a quarter, but that, that's the line which Chris said I +Mhm. +I didn't order, they always say +Yeah. +oh we'll charge you for that. +Mm. +Anyway I hear that you had little Jonathan John said. +Yes, erm +And he's going to be started now . +Yes, they're just putting, well th th most erm useful erm conversation we had was with the, the ophthalmologist, she was, she was superb erm and advised us to get it done as soon as possible. +I think so. +Mm. +I, I, I share that feeling +Mhm. +because I think that the the normally he, he has it done are greater. +Of course, if they are usually, er, er you know, when I say they are usually they th the success rate is absolutely phenomenal! +Mhm. +It, it really is absolutely phenomenal! +I was speaking +There was a young girl had this done to greater success. +Mhm. +That's what he said, he's, had to be done before twelve, before the age of twelve. +Yes. +And I was speaking to Elaine today erm, over at Queensway, who, who I used to work with and erm, her erm nephew,ne niece +Mm. +she had the same thing done erm last year +Mm. +with a great success ra erm very successful. +And I was tel telling, I didn't realize that erm not getting a fa erm a squint patched was erm as dangerous as it is, as, I was told by the ophthalamagist that she could, he could lose his eyesight if he hadn't erm didn't get his eye patched because they will stop using the eye, and the eyesight would go. +And she said that erm Gordon, her husband erm he has no sight in one eye due to due to exactly the same thing not patching erm, an eye at the, the right age. +Oh! +Well. +Erm, leaving it too long, and now he's as I say, last couple of years he's been to se to see why it is he's getting headaches and they say there's no sight in that eye at all. +Aha. +And, purely due to a slight squint +Oh! +as a, as a boy erm una un erm treated +. +and, causing problems now. +Well you know, well you know the, the when I was a little girl, of course, I was totally prepared +Yes. +for this and I certainly +You had the patch, you had the, glasses didn't you, with the, the patch over it? +not that I perceived any longer if the hadn't gone. +Mhm. +Well that did the trick. +That was all it needed. +Erm, they do keep an eye +Yes. +just to make sure it doesn't go +That's right. +back. +You see, I have very poor vision in my left eye, I mean, absolutely appalling +Mm. +vision so +Well maybe that's been the cause. +Yes. +Exactly. +And I mean really, really dreadful vision, and erm, er er of course, erm er er er, I just have compensated, you know, I really ought to wear specs all the time, and just, and just know that I just take specs off and on, off my nose as, as I, you know, need to er, as I require them. +But erm, er, did yo did you, did you ever know that Alan also had an operation for a little +No. +squint there? +No, so it must must run, er run in +I would +the family then. +I di I did remind Chris and he just said, oh yes! +I do remember now in the distant past. +Mhm. +I says, well your cousin Alistaire when he was a little boy before , he went back +Mhm. +Holland +That doesn't surp +but he +surprise me but he's got erm, he ha he wears glasses doesn't he? +And said +And he, he doesn't at all now. +No? +No. +He wore glasses until he was into his teens and then er, he took them off and he's er, he doesn't wear them at all, and his sight is absolutely perfect. +Oh, well there you are. +He has no problems at all now +Mhm. +Wendy, and, but he's certainly had an operation for the correction of a squint when he was about six. +Mm. +Can you hold on a second a Jonathan's got up . +Do you wanna have a wee word with granny? +Mm. +Now, two seconds and you go to bed! +I'm very angry with you getting back up again! +Right, say hello. +Hello granny. +Hello my darling! +Oh Jonathan, granny has missed you so much! +I haven't +Mhm. +seen you for ages have I? +No. +We haven't seen each other for such a long time. +You must +No. +come and see me soon. +Aha. +I'm just aching to see you! +I'm longing +Granny. +Yes darling. +Have you got a new television? +I have, yes. +Yes I have. +It's a super new television! +You must come and see me and see the television. +Mm mm. +You +Aha. +wanted to come today didn't you ? +No, it really is, er it's brilliant Jonathan! +Aha. +It's wonderful! +Erm, so, erm, so I'll see you soon, and you're going up to bed now I hear aren't you? +Yeah. +Yes. +And erm, you're, you're, you're keeping well are you? +Aha. +You're much, much better? +Aha. +And Michael too? +Well, I'll see you soon darling. +Yes right. +Will you come and see me soon? +Yes. +Yes. +You must come and stay with me again some night, one night. +Yes. +That would +Alright? +be nice wouldn't it? +So +Yeah. +get off to bed then. +Aha. +Ni-night my darling. +Off to bed. +Say goodnight granny. +Night-night granny . +Ni-night. +Ni-night my sweetie. +Right, up the stairs now. +I'm just watching +Go on. +these. +Two seconds. +Up the stairs now! +Now, there's none of this nonsense! +Go on, back to bed please. +Shut the door. +Mm mm, no. +He can't bear to think he's missing out on anything . +Yeah, but he probably heard you phone me. +Yes. +He, they were late to bed I'd had them erm round at the shops and then er er Queensway, then the shopping centre to pick up a card for for Chris. +Hadn't got a card for him . +Erm, and then Marie's, to pick up, she gets me milk erm er fo sick of running out of milk and she goes every, twice a week to, to get er, main shopping and just milk on Friday, and she said oh I can get you milk so +Oh good. +she gets me one of these big six ca erm pinters. +Yes. +Six er, litres. +Yes. +And that, and that keeps me going all week so I had to go and pick that up and of course we we went in, then we were late. +Yeah. +Yeah. +Erm, it, it fits into the, the fridge door, no problem. +Oh it does? +Mhm. +Oh right. +Ya. +They're, they're designed to you know, fit in the door. +Yes. +Yes. +Oh that's good. +Cos they are splendid! +You know, I've had one or, or two of those from time to time. +They're, they're great. +Every, we go through so much milk now with erm, having breakfast cereals and +Yes. +and all sorts, erm and I would it's lovely having the milk I hate ma running out. +Oh I hate running out of milk! +I'd rather run out of anything than milk +That's right you ca +that I know. +you feel you can +Yes. +you can cook up anything if you've got milk o +That's right. +with milk, but +Yes. +erm +Oh isn't that good! +That's marvellous that, that +So +arrangement. +Erm, Wendy, erm +Mhm. +er are you going erm, are you going out tomorrow night? +We're haven't decided where, but erm Chris wants to go to the cinema. +Yes, and he did say when he phoned me a night or two ago that you might +Mhm. +thought you might go to the +He was hoping Star Trek erm Six would be on, but erm so far i we've it hasn't been advertised erm, and er, it's been on and premiered in erm in London, and he hoped it would come out here erm this week, but erm +Well what about J F K, I mean, that looks +Well we wanted to see that but erm, it's three and half hours, three plus hours which erm we wanted to +we wanted to go for a wee meal erm afterwards and it meant er made an awfully late night with the, having the baby-sitter, got Christine next door coming in to baby-sit. +Oh yes. +Erm, and it's quite an early start so it's, it just makes it such a late night to for eating by the time you've come out the cinema it's erm +Well, yes it +so late. +does dear. +Yes it does, it certainly does. +By the time you get out and +Mhm. +I mean, even if you go for a, a Chinky or an Indian it's +Yeah. +still very late. +I think we've decided we, we will, we will go to the cinema and probably see J F K, er and just have a snack in er, and go save the meal up and have er, that later in the month. +Yes. +And enjoy +Yes. +it. +Chris is desperate to go back to the Hargate, but erm +Is he? +Yes. +His passion for the Hargate. +He's,yo I was saying you went there and you weren't impressed last time. +No I wasn't. +It's changed hands. +No I wasn't, no I wasn't in the least bit impressed with it. +I wouldn't, I wouldn't go back. +Erm +Really? +As bad as that? +No. +And erm, they were all complaining. +Mm. +Erm, I er no I, I was desperately disappointed when I +Oh. +was last there which was erm with +What? +Dorothy. +Haven't been er, well it's over a year ago now when we were there. +Mm. +I'd, remember you saying that and +Yeah. +it could have been just because it's, just had just newly changed hands and it might have +Well obviously it might have been +improved. +but I mean er ghastly. +I mean, really, really ghastly! +It's erm +Mm. +the worst meal I think, er, I went with Dorothy , it was the worst meal out, we both said that, that either of us had ever had ever had anywhere +Really? +Oh! +it was such a terrible +Is it, it's the same style, it's still open sandwiches +Yes. +Yes. +and er +And erm you know the erm er, I, I don't know whether it had any adjustment changes or what, but +Mhm. +but everything about it was just shocking! +Mm. +That would be awful to go cos he's, he's so passionate about it. +Ha the Hargate +Yes. +to, to go in and be erm +Well that's it. +Well he, he'd +Yes. +you know. +Yes. +Alistaire, Alistaire's favourite place +Mm. +and I don't think well +It's a shame to spoil it and go and have a rotten meal there. +Yes. +Yes. +Mm. +Yes. +Especially you +That's what made +pay for it. +me feel so bad about it Wendy, because I thought, everything that ever meant anything to me +Mhm. +seems to be disintegrated round about me, even to the blooming Hargate! +You know, that I +Mm. +thought I could always depend on. +But er, and also, you know the association with Alistaire's, the things that Alistaire liked, that was +Mhm. +I think the thing that erm that er, made me feel so, so utterly and profoundly miserable about that evening. +Ah! +However, erm there it is. +And I wouldn't say, I thought your phone might have been Graham because er +I was just going to ask +Not a wo +any word? +Not a word +No? +Wendy! +Not a word. +Not a cheep. +And I, it's now ten days, they're onto some scam, and erm, I've, I had a letter from Marion erm, course, well to say they were no wiser and er she sent me some of the +Mhm. +photographs, she sent me three lovely photographs taken in erm i in St Helens Road the day of her party on the Sunday before Christmas and they were so good I've ha I've, I've got, rushed out and got little frames for them. +Oh good. +Yes. +Oh, the th the three, there's my three brothers and their spouses and erm one of erm of the nephew and nieces, erm, Robert and Rachel at the end, and Carolyn and Andy +Aha. +in another one. +So +Good. +there we are. +Erm,wha are you erm erm er any further news from Australia? +Erm no, none +Yes. +none erm, recently, just saying tha exact same that erm George is s s still very very weak. +Yes. +Erm not up to visitors,ma erm,sh she has limited the times she's visited because she's got the children, and he's just really not able to stand the children +No. +around him. +Oh yes. +His tolerances level is is erm non existent. +Oh! +You know the erm +Just a matter of time. +I know. +This is it +Mm. +you can't stand any noise +Noise and the +at all. +or the,th especially when the they're children. +So erm mum and dad has been writing and erm I think they phoned +Yes. +erm but ea she wouldn't bring him over to the phone, she said oh he's too weak to come to the phone. +Erm which I think was, disappointed dad because erm I think he would like to have had a word with him. +Yes. +I'm sure. +But erm +Yes, I'm sure. +but they've, they've written anyway and so it's very difficult to, to think of things to say and erm +You don't know what to say +No. +when do you when they are . +You're at a loss totally. +One is at a total loss for words to express adequately how one really feels inside, you know. +It is erm, +Well +so awful! +Anyway, won't get morbid about it, there's erm +No. +How did you get on at erm at Cramond? +You were going down to Jean and Ronald's? +Erm oh no I didn't go to Cramond darling! +Erm +O +I went with Jean to the theatre. +Oh! +That's right. +I di and then of course, the previous erm, er Monday I erm, I was at oh, the seventieth birthday party, but I think I told you about that didn't I? +Erm yes. +Over at Gillian's. +That's right. +Yes. +Well it was Gillian and, and erm and Ronald's sister. +Erm and +Oh. +then er a week ago last night erm Jean and I went to the Lyceum together to see Arsenic and Old Lace. +How did that go? +It was lovely! +I enjoyed it enormously! +Jean did. +And I love, I love that film and they, they show it quite regularly on the T V. +Yes. +It's a +Yes but Alistaire saw the +super film. +film, it was great. +Mm. +Yes, it was a it was a fun evening, it +Di +really was. +I +Did it compare to the, the film? +Yes. +Oh yes. +It was a ve the the Lyceum Theatre Company and it was splendidly cast! +It was, it was really refreshing and su I love live theatre, of course, I really ought to go more often. +Mm. +You should. +So erm, in fact, I would have loved to have taken Jonathan to the pantomime erm, it's on until er +Is it still on? +the +Is it still on? +Yes. +Mm! +Good grief. +It's on till the end of the month. +Erm the +What, what's on this year? +I'd heard nothing +Aladdin. +about it at all. +Er, it's Aladdin. +Aladdin. +Yes. +And who's in that? +Oh! +Erm, erm er, what do you call erm, Jack and erm and er, what do you call, erm er who's the woman? +And erm, Russell 's new wife. +Anyway, it's a superb cast! +Apparently +Mhm. +it's really brilliant! +Absolutely brilliant! +And, but i i he, next year when they're both a year older, you know +Mm. +I think they may appreciate it more erm +I think it would erm I don't think their concentration span +No. +would, would last out +Yes, well +for +apparently +especially not Michael's. +I think they would +Mm. +er, but little erm, I think by next year, you see, Jonathan er will be six, and, and, and Michael will be +Mhm. +coming up +I think +to five so +I think definitely next year. +Yes. +Definitely. +We should +But I +all, all go. +but I did feel, certainly +Mm. +yes, we'll all go. +Make his a make it an outing. +That's right. +Oh yes. +And it's,i it doesn't erm seems strange going a sa so wa far away from Christmas, and er think of panto as, seems +Yes. +weird. +Well it finishes at the end of this month. +Gosh! +I didn't realize it went into February. +Yes. +Oh yes, it does. +It goes, they, they, er it has +Mhm. +I think it has about another fortnight to run Wendy. +Gosh! +Ya. +I think so. +Erm so, there we are. +Erm, you're, so you're not working this weekend, it's the next weekend you're working? +No, I swapped erm, I should be working this weekend but +Yes. +erm, I swapped with erm Bernie. +Ah! +Erm and it's worked out marvellously. +Aha. +Er,unin unintentionally er, because I have my days off Thursday, Friday next week +Yes. +which are the sa same days as the school's off for their +Oh! +erm, half term. +Oh good! +And I've got this weekend off, not having to work when erm it's Chris's birthday so +Yes. +it's +Yes. +it's worked ou out well for both of us. +She took erm stupidly erm, she says herself she booked erm the Friday and erm, the Monday off +Aha. +to make it a long weeke because of the schools being off +Yes. +erm to make the most of the holiday , and then found she was working in the sh in the middle. +Ah! +So erm it doesn't bother wi the weekend's better for me cos Chris is here to cover and then I'll have +Yes. +That's right. +er, the boys off. +So, er so you work tomorrow day, so you worked Wednesday and Thursday when you didn't expect to be, but you're off now? +Yes. +I see. +Yes. +Yes. +That's right. +It's funny how your system, I, I was it got to Thursday, I thought and my system sort of er was telling me, oh I shouldn't be here, I'm getting fed +Yes. +up wi fed up with this! +Yes. +Erm +Yes. +That's right. +So, so used to your sort of third week having a day off in the week. +Yes. +But when it got to lunchtime today it's been quite . +Yes. +It's been very busy, got a lot of people off sick with erm, flu. +Lot of flu going around erm it's quite short- staffed so busy, busy! +And are, you're all very much better now aren't you? +Touch wood +Yes. +we are on the mend. +It's er well it's a relief to feel well just erm +. +They've both got runny, runny noses but +Yes. +erm that's the time of the year, yeah. +I don't think they'll be free of that until until the summer. +How about your tooth, did you get erm +Oh that's a lot er better +sorted out? +thank you. +Yes, that's much better. +I have to go back to the dentist next week but er erm er, in fact, it's not this coming it's the week after, it's a week on Monday I have to go, that's right. +Erm, so erm erm and that is the day that erm er both mum and Marion are due to fly off to Oz. +Mhm. +I take it she won't be a she won't get anything done before she goes now? +Well she couldn't could she? +No, there's no time. +I er, I know, I, well I wrote to Marion and said er, I really think that erm if they do find something slightly amiss now erm the a is out of the question. +I said +Mhm. +he's got to take consi into consideration the amount of recovery time that is required, and especially when they're you know, interfering with the waterworks of somebody +Mhm. +that age! +That's right. +And embarking on such a long trip. +So, I think they'll probably say, oh just go and enjoy your holiday +See you when you come back. +and we'll deal with you +Mm. +when er when we come back. +Because she, you know hi she took that intensive course antibiotics i which was obviously contributing er to her being so unwell +and, and had discomfort too, she's been a lot better. +Well maybe it's just been a deep, a deep-rooted infection. +Yes, and she's, she's definitely had +Chronic infection. +she's definitely had a chronic urinary infection. +There's no doubt whatsoever about that. +But I don't think it's the whole story Wendy. +I, I, think that there is you know, something er ba er mechanically amiss as well, but er you see, you know, she, she says that she's, she's certainly been able to visit, which is mum's favourite expression, a lot better +Mhm. +and also, erm, she says I've, I haven't got this awful sort of very sore, blown-out feeling, you know, and, and, and that has left her, so you see, it,i I mean God knows how long she's had this chronic infection! +. +Well I'm gla glad she's getting something done about it now cos you and she'd just been left,sh er, hadn't been persuaded she'd have just let it go on and on and on wouldn't +If the +she? +if arrangements hadn't been made for her to go to Australia might be, she hasn't been may have you know, she still hadn't been to the doctors +Mhm. +and because, it's only this, it's only me, it's only me that, me that tricked her. +Was it? +. +Oh yes. +I thought you'd managed to talk her into it. +Oh no, no, no. +She's already +Mhm. +you're coming along to the doctors. +I doubt if she'd been, er would be have been there yet. +Anyway +Oh well +erm +and she's getting something done now. +I won't keep you, I +Mhm. +er, I, er I thought you might be watching Love Hurts, you're not following it? +Erm, I +Do you? +I, I have actually, erm no I'd forgotten it was on. +Yes, it's very good isn't +I +it? +well I, I'm not watching it but Gillian said, well I must go now +Mhm. +because I'm going to watch Love Hurts. +But it was also about erm er trying to get some . +Mhm. +So we've arranged to meet, we're going to meet in +Oh! +in , in February. +She wanted me to come er, to meet her next week but really, what with my Chris has come and then, and then +Mhm. +Anne is probably coming to us still on +Is she? +day, erm, you +Great. +know +and er +Wonderful! +we a we are going, we are going out for a meal on Saturday night i er, in, with or without, we're going out, I've er we want to go to the when we went with . +Oh! +Erm, er the trouble is +Mhm. +at the expense of the company they said you know, he, he says that er he says Martin had said to him, you know, you should take your sister out from time to time, there's no reason why, you know, we we couldn't +Mhm. +put it down to expenses and we'll cover it. +Quite right too! +And so er +This, and you put him up every time he comes up. +That's right. +And they're not +Oh yes. +forking out for any +That's right. +expenditure. +This is it. +So er, so er Alan is +Good I'm glad. +hi er he's got to go, he's got his annual medical, it's a very high-powered erm thing in Dundee on Tuesday, so Anne said that she would like to come up with him, potter about Dundee while he's having his medical then they will come here on Tuesday evening, or late Tuesday afternoon, and we go out for a meal, and then of course, she'll be with me all day on Thursday because he goes back up to Dundee to his managers' meeting, you see. +Aha. +That's the way it's worked out. +Oh well, you go down town or something with her? +So er +Well, I probably, I probably will. +But it just means that he comes up with my car. +Oh! +Just ge go anywhere sh I'm sure she'd entertain herself at the shops, she'd be quite happy to +Oh yes, but +wander round the shops and +if, now he's gone +potter. +I have to you know, and, and besides, when I come out of there I look like as if I've been . +So, anyway +So what! +So what! +I think I'll just, no, no, no, no, no, I have to concentrate on her, it's not that I see all that much of her. +Er if she comes, that's right +Mhm. +I mean she might suddenly find that she can't get the time off the hotel, or she changes her mind, I don't know. +Mhm. +Erm so, so, there it is. +And erm then a I, Gillian couldn't see me on Thursday, and then Friday William is coming up for half term, so er +Actually, he must be getting on ja William, he must, how old is he now? +William he was born in seventy ee ee ee ee ee six yes. +He will be erm erm yes he was born the year before I had my hysterectomy he was bor yes, but do you know he'll +Yes. +be he'll be sixteen this year. +Good grief! +Six he'll be sixteen in September. +And I mm. +fifteen, he's fifteen past this September. +God! +Now I do feel old. +I have +I know. +I remember him +I know. +three years old, two and a half, three, in the su in the pool paddling, in the +Yes. +pool at erm +I know. +Portugal. +Yes, that's right. +Little +So, the 's +little mite. +are back in this country, but Louisa has gone off and is erm, got a job with C B S, she's driving at the Olympic Games. +Is she? +And Sebby's gone off skiing somewhere and er Jamey's in London and er +What's Jamey doing? +Well he was at, he's at Liverpool University! +Is he? +Or he was. +Yes. +Whether, erm, I suppose he's still there. +And William is erm at erm Glenarmanton. +Ah. +Is he getting on any better at school? +Erm, he was having wasn't he? +Well I don't, oh yeah, I didn't ask you know. +Mm. +Just in case. +Knowing William I should think there are innumerable problems. +Mm. +Erm, yes. +But er, like you, I could hardly believe he's in his sixteenth +Mm mm. +year. +Very, very +Amazing isn't it? +Yes. +It certainly, it's certainly do you know that erm, er Rachel is thirty two on er +Yeah? +on Tuesday? +Good grief! +Yeah. +She's exactly two +Well that's a +years older than er er younger than +Younger than +than +than Chris, that's right. +There's days between them isn't there? +Yeah. +That's +Erm +right. +two years, and days. +The eleventh she is. +Mm. +So erm +What's Gillian doing now then? +Oh she's erm, she's not doing anything at the moment because erm +Is the tourist, the business erm +Er +totally out the window? +Yeah, but she's not working at the moment. +Er, she says that she's er, there's absolutely nothing doing just at the moment, erm, but she says that she never knows the time when she will be called upon to you know, be asked to do a trip, but +Mhm. +really right in the middle of winter and there's really nothing much doing. +So, she is resting, albeit +Resting. +unwillingly at the moment. +Mm. +Has she still got that boyfriend. +Yo oh yes. +Yes. +Yes. +Chub chubby. +Yes, that's right. +Yes, that's right. +And, have you heard from the erm cousins and er +Erm, they're going off they're, it's, probably away this, this weekend, erm Sheila's but they're all going erm +Right. +oh was it this when is it they're going? +It's the Eas erm the half term break +Aha. +I think. +Erm, they're going down to Bicknoller erm, to stay with her mum. +Where? +They're staying +Erm +where? +They're going down to Somerset +Yes. +to stay with erm Sheila's mum. +Yes. +And, to let, basically, to let nanny see erm +Alex. +Alex because she hasn't wa ma although mother's been up erm, nanny always gets shot off to the erm the home and she hasn't actually seen her. +Well now I can tell you, erm, I actually wanted to erm and, and, and, and really as, as, as erm perhaps a bit of an old softy but +Mhm. +I really thought that I would have asked Chris if he is pay for his erm Society here in . +Mm mm. +And er for his birthday. +That would be lovely! +So I had no idea how much it was but I thought +Mhm. +well I'm not gonna ask Chris cos I'll just write a cheque to Society. +Aha. +So I thought well there's only,th th the, the easiest way of finding out is to ring Keith. +Mhm. +They're away. +No. +No answer. +No, no. +So I rang, I rang him last night and, they're not away and they've erm he was able to tell me that it was exactly a hundred pounds. +Gosh! +That's gone up then. +It's gone up, yeah. +So,th the poor, poor Keith has been terribly, terribly poorly all week! +He's been +Has he? +off work. +Yeah. +Oh! +And, he said +That's sudden. +erm, I think really that he's finding erm, er the, the pressure of, of erm, of, of the , I mean, bloody kids are almost unendurable! +And, you know, he's been very wheezy and pro and, and, and er, and has a, er,ha has been suffering some sort fluey cold. +And Karen last weekend, after you were sitting for them suddenly took ill on the Saturday I think, and Sheila wasn't in any great shape, so he went back home er, from the office an over his lunch hour to see if he could just go and lend a hand,ge generally help out over his lunch hour. +Mhm. +And he said he was alright over you know, that period and he said he got back to office, then two hours later he said he was in, in such great pain! +Oh! +And he said, I suddenly felt so ill, you know, and I was shaking, and, and, and, and, and obviously started running a temperature and, and my, my, er and, and shivering and whatever. +Mhm. +And he said, it's most unlike me, as you probably know, but he said I couldn't tell you the last time I had time off work, but he said, I haven't been into the office since th cos I've been feeling really bad! +Yeah. +That's jus that's the classic one that's going around +Aha. +sort of fluey, fluey-like symptoms +That's right. +And guess, and guess who erm has been helping out? +Oh. +Evelyn of course. +Yes! +And guess, who +Mhm. +in actual fact, because they thought she'd be better out of the way, had the baby last night? +That doesn't surprise me in the slightest. +But when he said, we thought it would be a good idea, we took a Ali erm, erm mum took Alex over to Craigmiller Park, and we thought it would be a good idea if she just stayed there overnight because if she wa if she's escaped it by, you know, tomorrow then she should really you know, be safe and, and +Mhm. +a voice came er, from the, the back of beyond and Keith said, oh he said Sheila has just reminded me to tell you that it was my idea. +In other words, in other words, she wasn't going to do th have Norma think that er +Aha. +that she had th but erm, they, I don't know wha I really, honestly don't know er what they would do about, she would do about Evelyn. +Ah,oh . +I don't know either. +Se they fall back on her so, so often +Yes. +She caved in, in, she caved in she can't face up to er, to anything very much really. +No. +She's always been like that though. +Ya. +Yeah. +And, gonna, she's gonna carry on being like that while, while Evelyn's there to +Yeah. +pick up +That's right. +as she drops +That's right. +everything her, coming +That's right. +behind and pick it all up +That's right. +and cope. +That's right. +So, I thought I would let you know, I didn't tell Chris this +Mm mm. +because obviously and this time, because Chris turned up unexpectedly and, I had his card, and everything +Oh! +all ready, and stamped +Oh! +and when I heard er th from him that he's going to er pick up somebody somewhere, and pick up somebody somewhere else and go to the to a +Mhm. +football match tomorrow I thought, well I'm not posting his blooming cards, I'm, I'll just hand them to him and if at sometime you're stuck for a +I'll ste steam them off ! +Yes. +Too right to. +I'll make use of them. +Yes ! +So I just kept them, but I thought +Good for you. +imagine! +And I'd only done them ten minutes before +Oh! +he appeared. +Oh! +So you could steam them off and slap them out again. +No, no, no. +I'm not really good at that. +Leave that to me. +I er, I, you can do that, I, I, I'm, I, I thought, I thought of that, well really, you know, erm well isn't it, isn't it just me? +So erm +It is. +anyway, listen my darling +Mm mm. +we've gone on talking so long +Yes. +and I'll see you +Must go. +soon I hope. +Yes, erm I th are you doing anything Sunday? +No. +Might pop in on Sunday with the, with the boys if +Yes. +if that suits you? +Yes. +Yes. +Cos erm they were asking today if they could come and see granny's new T V and +Yes. +Yes, er well +a can we go and see granny? +you know +But it was so late on. +Yes. +Well you know Wendy erm, you could come and, and er have a spot of lunch if you'd like? +I mean, you're always so welcome to come and have anything. +Er, you only just have to say, well you know, would it suit you for me to come in +Mhm. +and, you know +Well we will. +you know, perfectly well the answer's going to be be yes more times than it's going to be no I'm not going to be around. +Erm +It's Jonathan beckowing . +Erm, well we'll come in, in the af after lunch. +Erm +Right. +pop in after lunch er th with the +Alright. +boys because they haven't se they haven't seen you for ages. +Yes. +And erm +Oh I would love +they're as they're asking +Yes I know, I would +so +love that! +And I'm I'm when I wrote to Marion I said, er I'm ge I am getting the most terrible withdrawal symptoms! +I haven't seen two sweeties for er, well I haven't seen Jonathan since the the third of Ja erm January is it, or the second of January or whatever and er +Is it? +As long as that? +Yeah. +And er, well I haven't seen you ooh +That's right. +Well I have been I've been in bed half the time with +Oh have you? +with erm +Yes. +I know. +When I say +stupid bugs! +when I say that, of course, I mean +Mm mm. +I mean, I don't mean, you know +Mm. +I know how, I know how you have been erm +Frus frustration with one, one thing after the other. +Yes. +Yes. +I know. +But, touch wood, I think that's all out the way. +But +Yes. +erm +well erm, I know +and the last thing I wanted to do was give, give erm give you anything because +Well, er, yes. +And also, Wendy, erm er, the other thing is that I really wasn't a hundred percent in health. +No you weren't were you? +on er er, er and had erm I was on an antibiotic for a, week or so. +However, I look forward to seeing you +You survived. +so, very +Mhm. +very, very, very much on er +Right, we'll pop +Sunday! +in, we'll pop in on Sunday. +Yes. +Erm, in the afternoon. +Ooh! +In the afternoon with erm the wee ones. +Yes. +Erm +And erm cos I know you've got this drag of er, of a, of a duty on Sunday night but +Yes. +Yes. +Still, still got that . +Yes. +So you won't want to be er er too late in getting er, away, erm, because er you have to get back and er get organized for that, erm anyway +Yes. +The se the se +the psych up, or the wind up, or the wind down whichever . +That's right. +Whichever. +Erm, well we won't talk about that now, we won't talk about Sunday night, but I, you come, you come and see me on Sunday and +Right +er +will do. +I'll, I'll really look forward to that so much. +We might, if i if it's a nice day we might possibly have a little walk out somewhere or run out somewhere, or something +Good idea. +Yes. +you see, and then boys can have +Mhm. +tea erm before they go home. +Yes. +We'll think of somewhere to to ga spend the afternoon. +Yes, well, I think +Hopefully, hopefully a nice day. +er, we'll, we'll play it by ear, it'll +Mhm. +all depend on the day, you know, because the weather's been superb hasn't it really? +It's been glo glorious one day, and then, and then sort of a bit +cold really +dodgy the next. +But erm +Yes. +Yes. +hopefully, hopefully it'll be, it'll be a nice sunny day. +Yes. +Well, erm, I know the forecast isn't quite so brilliant as it has been, I think but +Oh. +er anyway +Whee! +Yeah. +regardless of the weather, it doesn't matter, we'll see you +Mm mm. +on, on, on Sunday and erm and er er, enjoy tomorrow with Chris, er, what when you see him. +Eventually when I see him, when I, catch up with him! +Yes. +Yes. +Alright dear. +There we are. +Will do. +Thank you for ringing. +Okay my love. +Erm +Take care. +Yes. +I'll see you +Yes. +see you on Sunday. +Yes. +Bye-bye now. +Okay. +Go and have an early night. +Oh well if I could! +I got loads to do. +Loads! +Have you? +Mhm. +What ? +Ah tidy up this house, it's an absolute +Is it a tip? +tip, absolute tip. +Really? +Yeah. +A bomb hit us in the night, d'ya not know that? +That's what it looks like! +Oh can't you +So +can't you leave some of it until tomorrow morning? +Or is it better when you having a quiet +It's best, I can't do anything with this pair around. +No. +They're +I know. +I know. +They're erm,hope hopeless! +Well I mustn't keep you talking because the more I, the more I keep you talking the less time you have to do it. +Okay. +Righto! +Bye-bye! +Sleep tight. +All my love. +Bye-bye. +Bye. +Bye-bye . +Right. +Bed! +Come on. +I can't sleep. +Well you can't try to sleep when you're not in bed can you? +Well, I was trying to sleep when I was in bed bed. +Do you know what time it is Jonathan? +Do you know what time it is? +No. +You've never been up this late I don't think. +Come on. +Except when we travel overnight, even then you were sleeping. +On holiday. +Come on! +Under the covers. +You are shattered! +Aren't you? +Hate to think you're missing out on anything. +Get your legs down. +Slither down or did you? +That was funny. +Unlike that here. +Say ni-night. +Night-night mummy. +Shut your eyes. +Mummy, can you put that there. +Aha. +Shh shh shh. +There. +Some stickiness in here. +What's that? +I dunno. +Put it away. +Ow! +Okay. +Right. +Can't sleep? +Can't, I can't sleep. +So the cat was trapped in here. +What? +The cat was in here. +Mm mm. +Pussycat. +D'ya have a good good da +Didn't you see him? +Did you have a good day at school. +Mhm. +Mhm. +What did you do today? +I did a painting. +Just a painting. +Did you? +Yes. +Eh! +Don't scratch the furniture. +How d'ya get on at the dentist? +Fine. +Mm. +You were a big brave boy weren't you? +Mm. +And I got a badge. +You got a +Er +badge did you? +Mummy wa +Is that for being good or is that for for having good clean teeth? +Cos I was good. +Cos you were good. +And you sat a in the, the big chair. +Yes. +What happened in the big chair? +We the lady took the one of the things off. +Did she? +Did it go back? +Yes. +Did it go up and down? +No? +Just back? +Back. +The, the pillow went back. +Mhm. +And , and so did the feet go back. +When went up, they would go up wouldn't they? +The top would go back. +Er, and I slided a wee bit. +Slid. +Slid. +Mm. +Did she look in your mouth? +Aha. +What did she say? +With the torch up there. +Mm mm. +What did she say? +She said, I want to keep those teeth. +Did she? +And you can have mine. +And hers come out did they? +Were +Yeah. +they in a jar? +Were they the ones you can put in a jar? +Like granddad's. +What? +Well, did her teeth come out? +Like granddad's. +Yeah. +Nah. +I think she'll be too young for that. +Is it a young lady or an old lady? +A young lady. +Oops! +I hang on a second whilst I get the phone. +This +Er that, that one! +, George died yesterday afternoon. +Ah! +So +Oh I'm sorry to hear that. +Aha. +So Morag when she came down, came down for the whole week. +Ah! +So +Aha. +so she was there. +Oh well it's it's been +So yeah. +quite quick then just, towards the end? +Well I think for him he was very, very . +Mm. +Er, you know but I, she, when I was last week at Sheila's she said he he her, you know, sign of +Mum! +taking it much further you +Mum! +see because of the +there, I suppose the food with the, some of it you know the tumour was stopping the food getting down, so I suppose you just live on what you've got in your body and +Mhm. +which is only about a fortnight isn't it? +Yeah, food, food-wise. +As long as the fluids are going in but erm +Well that's right, yeah. +And once the, once the +Yeah. +cancer takes over it's it's you know, it's it's usually quite quick. +Yeah. +So anyway, it's gonna be +Ah! +a relief for him. +Mm. +And for Gillian +It's +too. +Yeah, I know, she's had a hell of a well for the last two or three years. +Mm. +But er we said, oh you've done very well Gillian and she said to, to your father, she said oh it's been a pleasure to do it. +Aha. +Well ! +Shame. +So, anyway erm I phoned +What +Sheila up +Mhm. +and then, and got the baby-sitter ! +Ah no! +And so erm I mean, she knows but, I was just wanting to, to start flowers but +Yeah. +Gillian said she didn't want flowers, she didn't want to, to, they thought they were a waste of money and er she said, needed, she'd wanted to send any, if you wanted to send any just to send it to, to nursing. +Aha. +Donation to the nursing +something like that, but she's you know, dead against she didn't like funerals anyway. +He only wants the family there. +Aha. +He doesn't want the fuss the golf club and everybody there sort of thing, very, very, quiet. +She hadn't de decided yet to what day, because it's a weekend. +Oh! +But er, I think , Gillian's brother knows a a friend who's, works in the crematorium , down at er Mornington, so I suppose they'll be +Mm mm. +getting in touch with him, but nothing mu much they can do, you know at a weekend. +Mhm. +So, anyway that's a happy relief, but sad but +Wait till, wait till Monday. +there we are, at least we can see him when he sort of reads his will. +That's right. +That's the same +I mean +sort of +Just as, er just as well you didn't go out because erm you could have been half way out there in the plane or whate when erm +Yes. +Yes. +when he'd, he'd popped popped +Yeah. +away. +But, anyway +And be better remember him the way he was, I think. +Yes. +Er, I suppose +Anyway, are you all fixed up +is dad, dad upset? +for tonight? +Erm sort of! +Sort of. +I've got the baby-sitter coming in erm coming in quite early erm quarter to seven and then +Aha. +we're going to either go for a me meal first or go for the ci the cinema and then for meal. +Aha. +But we're just gonna decide tonight +Aha. +where we're gonna go. +Aha. +So +So +enjoy yourself. +Mm. +Had Norma on the phone, she was asking after George yesterday. +Oh! +Erm +She got her waterworks done? +Yo you mean granny or the, or the gas ? +We well how's granny? +Erm +She must be getting ready to go. +She's heard nothing from the, the hospital they after the tests. +She's had +Done? +she's had nothing so she hasn't had anything done. +Good God! +So she's gonna be going off to, to Australia erm, as before with no +Yeah. +no erm you know, improvement on her waterworks. +So it's not long now as you say. +It's next week +No. +isn't it? +Sixteenth isn't it? +Aha. +That's right. +So she I think she's erm, she wouldn't want it done just a few days before anyway she'd have to +Oh yes. +she'd have to recover +I thought at the time sh er she was leaving it pretty late. +Mhm. +Very late. +Well I did, I did wonder, especially with erm you know, waiting lists and they don't get in that quickly. +And Norma, of all people, should know that. +That erm +Well, well, it's, erm +Even i even if your priority was erm, you know, when you've like dad with his prostate that erm +Well he was a +blocked off, he had to +he was, couldn't pass anything and then, I mean, he was just mo more or less slipped in, but I think +Mhm. +you know, if if he'd been left to to probably some other doctor he probably would have said, oh you know, you can just have a catheter or something. +Cos I mean, I remember saying that, they, he knew somebody that had a catheter for two years! +That's right. +That's right. +It's just luck if you can get, get erm +Yeah. +a, a gap on the +Louis has had just had his call for his hernia, but he's gotta ring up on Tuesday to see if there's a bed available. +So, he's having the hernia. +Who's that, Louis? +Yeah. +Oh! +So +No +you see, he, he he can he cancelled cos his name came up and then he cancelled and he never heard anything and went a bit er we told him about Doreen, he said, oh I better go down and see what's happened er he went down and then about three minutes later he got this erm card yes er, this week to say that come in, but, before you come in ring to see if there's a bed. +Mhm. +So he's erm +Especially of the winter they wha they have what they have erm, they call yellow alert +Yes. +and red alert where there's, if there's lots of people with erm pneumonia, and +Yeah. +bronchitis and medical problems +Yeah I know. +Ya. +they, they block off the surgical beds, they get erm priority +I, I know +and they +they've had when I went in +take them into the surgical wards, the medical patients +if you remember when I went in +and they start cancelling. +like all kind of +That's right. +You got cancelled. +They said they said oh there's no beds left at all, there's probably about ten and the there was a bed, then I had to wait till about half past three in the afternoon to get into it. +And that was er nineteen eighty five. +That's right. +So anyway won't bother you. +How's Norma? +Mm mm. +She got a +Hmm. +or whatever it was? +Ah ha? +Yes. +Erm +What was it a fuse? +No, no, it was the radiators, er problem with the radiators. +Radiators. +And, they had to pull everything up and she wasn't very pleased about it. +They're pulling, then she had the, the erm you know she got a phone for Christmas, we gave, we gave her a +Yes. +phone for Christmas so Chris plugged it in and then +Yes. +and then she had a complica problem with her line and she was blaming the, blaming the phone. +Erm, and Chris had a look at it and said it's not the phone it's your line, so she had to have the, the G P O people in. +Erm and then of course they had to haul up the floorboards and re re-lay a line for the phone +Aha. +for the phone she's got. +They've got a blooming cheek! +The, the Post Office, the erm erm telephone people have charged her for the erm a new phone when it's, and it's her o her own phone! +Ha! +What a cheek! +But she's not paying it is she? +No, no, she'll she'll erm she'll query it, but just as well she noticed otherwise she'd have been merrily paying it and Norm Norma doesn't +I know. +It's very naughty of them. +no Norma doesn't look into these things she just pays them. +It was erm +Well that's +la i she'd given it to +to check +Well that's a +and he spotted it. +Yeah. +Well that's the thing with our, I mean we can't have one of these erm +No. +actually plugs in because we we got the old fashioned sort of wiring. +Well yo you could, but you'd have to have erm +Pay about thirty +the wiring replaced and a new socket put in. +Yes. +Which would cost you but then th you see a if you just get a plain ordinary phone they're not erm they're not that expensive, I mean you can get them for ten pound! +Yes I know, it's, yeah it's just having it all up, it's all round the doors and you know and they suppose they +Mhm. +pull it up, well they might leave it and just co disconnect it but they they'd have to bring it in, I don't it'd be better I think if we had ours in the back because the, the telephone thing comes in from the back be better than having it in the, in the passage really. +Well +You, you'd be handy for one upstairs. +Yeah, but it's, yeah +I'd, I'd like you to have one upstairs. +Yeah. +So erm save you running down the sta stairs if there's a phone +Yeah. +call in the, in the night. +If anybody breaks +Plus +in. +Well er, exactly. +It's, plus it's gonna save, plus +And for safety, +plus for safety. +at night. +Well er mm I was gonna say it wouldn't, maybe that wouldn't happen if you had a hand one, you know one of these hand ones, but er it's an expensive but erm it's for safety even if you, there was a you, you thought you heard intruders or +That's right. +you, you were, became unwell in the night. +Yeah. +You know +Yes. +it's, it's, it's much safer to have one upsa mind you, we don't have one but, +upstairs . +You'll have to get into bed. +Yes. +How are the boys? +Yeah. +Oh! +Erm, fine, fine, they're boisterous as ever. +I can hear them screeching around in the background. +Oh they're, believe it or not they're outside, you can hear them from outside! +Oh! +They were here initially, but they've gone outside, they're out the front. +So there's +How's your tooth? +Erm oh, touch wood, fine. +Aha. +I can't believe it dear! +If I'm, did aunty tell you I'd, I'd changed my dentist? +Yeah, you can't just go? +Going, I'm cha erm, cancelled yesterday cos I wasn't off anyway erm but I've managed, I've used that as a opportunity to go onto the other doctor the other dentist. +Which one's that? +Miss . +Oh yes. +Changed to her. +I think you can have anybody anyway. +You can, yes. +It's just, er the only problem is I'm half way through treatment and I don't think +Oh I know. +I don't think they like you changing half way through treatment. +Yeah. +But erm there's only one day that erm, he does that I can go anyway. +Yeah. +And there's, er, two days I can go when, when she's on. +Yeah I know, you've got an +So +appointment the same day as me, but cos the thing is she said well I, I still want the tooth out but then, I'm supposed to have a a, a, an appointment for the, the , I thought God that's, I might have a, she might extract the tooth and then I won't wouldn't wanna go with a bloody mouth to the hygienist. +Mhm. +But I don't suppose they would +Oh well. +give me another for that. +She'd,sh she'd cancel and give you another appointment. +Mm mm. +Er, she said, you know, make it one to sort of so you don't have to come back. +Mind you it wasn't all that long ago I was, went +Mhm. +to the hygienist anyway. +No, you've I haven't, it's me that hasn't been, I'm terrible for ah ha +Anyway, better go. +not going to her. +Better go. +Right. +Erm so er, he hasn't opened his cards, he's he's not back so he, he's +Oh he's away is he? +He stayed at Norma's last night. +Oh did he? +Well erm Fiona his boss erm she's leaving, so it was her leaving do last night +Oh! +and then it went on to his birthday so they made the excuse that they'd have a a double celebration. +Oh! +Erm, and they went out last night. +He'll have a sore head then? +Yeah. +He'll be hung over. +Erm, so he sta +Ha! +stayed at Norma's, and, he's coming back briefly, because he's got the football, this afternoon's a big match on. +Has, er who's taking over from him then? +Er, no +Nob +the woman? +Oh! +I, I thought you meant from the football. +Erm but it's go it's gonna be open to erm, applicants but he's already made enquiries as to his erm chances of getting it,th and there's, there's so many people wi already being given promotion but haven't got a erm a post +No. +who are sitting waiting for posts, erm, it's most likely be one of those that will get it. +But erm he's certainly, he's made enquiries. +There's a lot of changes in afoot, we're erm I shall discuss it let you know all about it one, one day if anything comes of it. +But erm,a unless you do something yourself there's no promotion i in +No. +in the civil service at the moment at all. +That's him been in this post for twelve years? +Yeah. +Erm which is unheard of! +Yes. +Unheard of in the civil service. +Usually, couple of years and you get, you get erm a promotion, but there's nothing, and the, the jobs that are coming up they're erm they're already sort of la allocated to people been given promotion. +Mm. +And pass boards and erm you know, are just sitting waiting. +Some people waited three years to get a post for a promotion they had you know, three beers, years back. +So it erm he's thinking, I don't know, ah he wo probably won't like it but erm it won't affect me, it'll affect Chris erm he might be going down to down to Leeds. +Why? +He maybe,th there's lots and lots of posts down in Leeds coming back e every weekend. +Mhm. +Just erm, having digs down there. +Erm, taking promotion that way. +It's, what they've done is they've closed er er, erm branch, an office massive office in London and they've moved them all over to Leeds because they can't get the people to take jobs in London so they've transferred it all to Leeds, and erm there's a chance of erm getting promotion, well, a very good chance of getting promotion down there. +But if, if I stay here it means that we've, we've a, a ho a home in the, the base, and he'll get a transfer back guaranteed transfer back within two or three years, so it means just travelling for for erm you know, that length of time. +Puts it all onto you though doesn't it? +To get the children to school and all the rest of it. +Well erm just have to get on with it and and and cope, there's plenty of single parents who have to do it themselves all the time. +And got lots of good friends and Le Lesley's always super erm to fall back on. +But +Alright. +There's no +no other solution for it. +It's o onl only a thought anyway, we just, as I say we're just erm we're mulling it over and it hasn't the jobs haven't even come up yet, but erm it's, it's it's a means to a +Where's Fiona +an end. +that's gone, the ga the woman ? +She's going to Leeds too? +Oh! +She's going to +Mm. +Leeds. +She's erm but she's from down that way +Mhm. +not from Leeds, but she's not far away from Le from Leeds so erm it's it won't be so strange to her. +But he seems quite keen, Chris. +Erm it would be beneficial so +Aha. +I've given you a I've given you a warning if I and it won't be such a shock to your sa system if it erm if we come out with a the news. +Right you are dear. +Take care dear. +Right. +I'll see you sa see you soon. +Erm we're coming in on Sunday to see Norma so I might pop in pop in on Sunday afternoon. +How is Norma ? +Fine. +Fine. +She seemed quite bright when erm I phoned her yesterday cos erm +Mhm. +She li she's very busy. +Is she? +Mhm. +She's got Bill and erm Bill and Anne coming up. +And they, they won a holiday to erm oh,Di Disney, Disney, EuroDisney. +They've won a holiday? +They won a holiday. +Yes. +Good! +And Norma was trying to persuade, because, it was for two adults and two children, she was trying to persuade them to take the boys with them. +But erm it landed on deaf ears. +So I don't know when they've, when they go but erm they've won that, it's obviously through one of their +Yeah. +things erm in the cash and carry promotions. +So she's got them coming up. +Erm, and Anne as well, so she's not too chuffed about having to +Isn't she? +entertain Anne. +Mhm. +Er,no knowing her, her, her liking for Anne. +Erm this this week coming. +Oh. +Next weekend. +Okay then. +So +I'll let you go then. +Okay. +Bye-bye. +We'll see you soon. +Yep. +Bye. +Hello! +Aha. +We might +Yeah. +we might we might be going over to see Mary on Sunday +Aha. +so you might not find us in. +Oh right. +Oh well,we I'll just leave Sunday then. +Erm but Sunday afternoon we said we'd +Mm. +possibly I'm ta talking about George and then she said, oh when are you coming to see me? +So I thought well +Mm. +we'll get it over with somehow, said oh Sunday afternoon probably. +Mhm. +I mean +Och, well we'll +we'll be back by +No we'll do we'll just, we'll just, I'll just erm so come ano another day when, let you is dad o dad okay? +Dad awf awfully +Yep. +upset? +Yep. +Erm +No? +well expected anyway. +Mhm. +It's sad but I mean I think miles away you sort of not quite so bad, traumatic. +Mhm. +Yeah well +And I think erm nan's er,we can't get her in yet, she doesn't seem to be in . +Does she not know? +Well er +Did erm +I think, you know they +Gillian not phone her? +er, never at home sort of thing and +Aha. +she seems to be out, I suppose they'll be playing bowls or something. +Because it's about the afternoon there you see, it's not such as many hours ahead as er Austra Au Australia, I mean, they're eleven hours ahead. +Mhm. +Have you to phone for, for Gillian? +Er, no Gillian phoned us. +So Gillian told us just to,i if she could phone nan. +Mhm. +And, yeah, it was better coming from him. +Oh right, so you you offered to phone up. +It gets a bi it gives her one less to, er it's quite traumatic having to give out the news. +I remember that for, for erm Chris for Alistaire. +Yeah. +Must go! +There's someone coming to the door. +Bye. +Okay. +See you. +Bye ! +Hi! +Some time we think we're nearer peace and then we find we're it's not, it's some, broken out somewhere else. +So that's, that's er the way it is. +What we do is we just leave the two for forty P if you think you'd like to have a read, read of them. +Mhm. +I'll just, I'll give you the forty P I've with er let you keep the the magazines. +Och! +No! +You, you'll have to take them. +Because we don't actually do that . +Maybe some of your family would, would really like er, they're not, old enough for +No. +for that +No. +kind of thing? +I suppose maybe not. +So +Got a cold? +A frog in my throat. +Yeah, yeah +Plenty of them this year. +there's plenty of colds going round at the moment. +Are they forty each? +Forty, the two, for two. +For two. +Oh right. +Forty's for the two, yes. +There you go then. +Do take them. +Okay. +I'm sure you'll find some interesting, I know maybe you've, you've er feel like you have your own church or something like that, but so many of the articles are in the general interest, you know, to everybody. +Erm, er, I mean, we would like peace wouldn't we? +You're +Certainly would. +by the way. +Okay, thanks very much. +Thank you very much. +Bye-bye dear. +Bye bye. +Are you waiting for somebody coming? +I was looking to see where the cha children were? +Oh I see. +Oh! +There they are. +There they are. +for safety +Aha. +Aha. +Well I've gotta keep an eye them though these days. +You do. +They might get it whether they want it or not. +Right. +! +No. +No time. +Oh ! +Hi. +Hung over? +Where were you? +Pardon? +Where were you? +I was talking to John and Marjorie on the front grass. +And she's saying John's waiting for a phone call and she says, oh that's your phone, there's your phone call. +And I said, I, didn't hear the phone ringing. +She says, oh no,it's yours ! +So I come belting in. +So you're fit? +Wouldn't say that. +Hung over? +God! +Shut this door it's freezing! +Mm. +Is it nice to waste time? +Er in, in general but very disappointed with the come out. +Really? +Yeah. +Well, just as well we're not gonna go there then? +Er no I think it wa I think it was our, our mistake er, there was there were sixteen of us there and seven of us had sort of clubbed together looked at the menu and it's it's fifteen ninety five, to, the rich main course banquet +Mummy, I want Postman Pat . +thinking, you know, this'll be it's gotta be something special but it really wasn't. +Mm mm. +It wasn't we were right against the window, cold backs, I mean we were I was freezing! +Obviously don't use it very often. +Don't bother +Yeah. +heating it. +I, I had, I had to finish, no curry I had finished my, my veal with my jacket on. +Oh! +And that's unlike you too, you don't usually feel the cold. +I mean,, but I'd really, seriously wished I had said to the waiter, but obviously we're having a good time . +Er I seriously wish I'd said to them you know, I'm, I'm phoning it a fortnight in advance because I want to stick to the arrangements. +Cos they can easily seat sixteen up there. +Mhm. +You know if you, if you give them the notice. +What's this for? +Sorry? +What's this for? +What's what for? +For sitting in the the main restaurant? +Well I was sa I'm saying that's what I did with it last year for my birthday. +Oh I see! +Right. +And they put me in the banqueting room, erm but we couldn't, d'ya know . +That's right, cos you wanted the atmosphere didn't you? +That's right, I remember now. +I'm with you. +On the same wavelength. +Right, so I went I went . +Mhm. +Well it was really very good. +Very, very good. +Mm. +Late night was it? +Fairly yes. +About two. +See? +Mhm. +Kept on getting thrown out of clubs. +You know this is a, a great club . +I think, I've heard about it erm one of the new clubs that's, they'd opened up in Edinburgh. +Well it's over twenty fives +Mhm. +That's right. +I heard +and so er +I heard a report about it. +so the riff-raff, they can't get in, no jeans or something like that. +And, then we'd be up, usually up and down +Mhm. +er, and the, all the people +Oh! +er no he enjoyed himself thoroughly! +It's not, I mean, it's music, and it's pop music but it's not . +Aha. +So, he played at, played at a level +Well that would suit me cos I can't stand these places where you can't hear yourself speak! +Well he played at a level, I mean er, I mean he but it's played at a level where it's loud enough er to have a good boogie on down to +Mhm. +and it's also at the level just like a round the corner and hold a conversation. +Mhm. +Well this been there you know. +Er, the girl that the girl that . +Right. +So what time you coming back? +Well I've just got to . +Oh! +Aye, this phone is wonderful isn't it? +Yeah,. +Yeah. +Have to get out to phone. +Yep. +And erm +Oh! +You can te erm pass on some sad news to erm, your mum. +George, yeah. +Er, mum's just phoned erm he's died, died erm Yeah. +Just +Who Gillian? +Yeah. +This morning. +Died this morn erm phoned this morning +Well +Er so er er Gillian seems to be taking it very well actually, I think it's erm, quite a relief, relief erm +Oh I mean that's it love, yeah. +it +And again it's yeah +Mm. +she'll be, she'll be . +Yeah. +And and they've been waiting since for it to happen. +So erm the funeral, with it being the weekend it won't be till next, next week the funeral. +And he's not wanting flowers and he's not wanting this, not wanting that, it's really wanting to keep it a very, quiet small affair. +George wasn't into all that. +So +Yeah, so er . +Mhm. +Pardon? +Can I come in? +Yeah. +Yeah. +That's true. +Mm. +Can I, come in? +I shall be coming with the boys. +Yeah. +Cos they haven't, they, they've been asking for +Well how, how many did you do? +ages erm +Mm? +to to see granny and +Well I suppose they +Yeah. +I don't know, you don't have to go. +Yo I can +Well yeah, that's great. +But erm, they, they're desperate. +Oh great. +Oh! +They're desperate to see, and they want to her new T V and all +all this. +Mm. +So, I mean, they was trying to come up one day so I could watch the telly and I really needed to . +Mm. +Mhm. +That'll, that'll be a new deal then. +Oh yeah. +That'll suit you wa right down to the ground! +You're a wee sa +that was obviously what I was gonna say . +Aha. +Just because it's your birthday I'll let you get away with it. +Right. +So er you get a pressie from your mum? +Aha. +And a card. +Mhm. +Er sh er er right time am I coming back then? +I did, aha. +Er, probably for about let's see half past five I would think, half past five, quarter to six. +Can you not come back between, before then? +Now? +Not at lunchtime? +No, cos I'm +Oh. +going to football. +So you're going straight on to the football are you? +Well, I might as well because +Yeah. +you believe it or not I came here, mum +Oh! +I'm having an entertainment here. +Oh dear! +Where did you get the scone from? +Says he baked +I was +it. +He did, yeah. +I'm most impressed. +Nursery, but you're not supposed to help yourself you know from the fridge. +Mm. +That was mine! +Mm. +They're a lively pair. +Most friendly. +Oh yeah. +I have +Yeah. +been shown all sorts of things. +How to +? +Well no, that's alright love, I'm not here to arrange +Oh! +I see you've got all the clobber here. +Oh! +Excuse me! +That +Th one person did it very well apparently but she was a person who er an older person who wasn't working. +It's quite difficult for +Mhm. +people working and with children. +It's a lot more complicated than, than I thought. +And, a lot of the time +this week's been, the worst possible week it could have been +No it isn't! +cos we've been out a lot. +Yeah. +And if my husband's out I'm sitting in the house +That's right. +well, I can't get away cos the children are in bed. +Yes. +Can't even go round and see friends and +No. +you know, see . +Mum! +Watch me! +Oh right. +Erm +Er i that's, that's been, that's been erm quite difficult, and as I said +Mum! +Watch me! +I work. +But you can't take it to work. +I've got erm +Watch me mummy! +Shush! +Ethical problems +with, you know, there's some super patients I'd love to take it to, and I don't think they probably would have minded if having having thought about it if I'd asked. +You don't need +Ah! +Get off +to explain it. +It's not fair. +No, er no. +I don't think that's fair. +No. +I don't think it's fair really +to, not to somebody house +Mm. +What? +I don't think it's fair. +Well the +Well not that thing after +I do I mean, I think a as you say there are marvellous conversations but that's +just too bad, I don't think that, I really don't think that's fair. + +No, no listen right,fir first +Is it on? +first of all yeah, we can erm, of course it's on, we can go to my house +yeah, my house +drop my bag and tell my mum where we're going then +or +no listen, listen, listen, then we can, well first we go, go to your house yeah +yeah +cos it's closer, yeah, then we go to my house +I'm coming now +then we can go to Kate's house and see if she's in +yeah +if she isn't in, no, we can go to your house and then go back to Kate's house +yeah +cos she might be in then, yeah +cos she has and, oh yeah +and then we can go to the tube station and go up to Kilburn +yeah,and then we can switch off and afterwards again, when I've finished and, you know +there's late buses running from +Johnny +go this way +after, afterwards, after I've phoned my darling Wakey and you lot speak to him, yeah +yeah +oh I wish we were going up to +ask, I'll speak to Johnny +eh +er, I'll speak to Wakey and Johnny +no, suppose I go to this fella, hi, hi, I love you and for Wakey I just go oh hi fee, fee I never two time you and everything +in it?, but you lied +hold on, I, erm, I never two time you, I lied, a +oh my god, I don't want you and Daniel going mad +what? +you and Daniel +what about it? +ooh kissing you know +oh do you hear +no +in, in, er before T P, not T P what am I talking about, before registration when we were all in the class, she started shouting at him +is it?, why? +she's going, erm because he, he doesn't do anything, yeah, and she's going oh I suppose any other girl would dump you ages ago, you don't know how lucky you are, she just so nice, blah, blah, blah, blah, and he, I say it was so funny and she start shouting at him, that's why he was trying to go oh shut up +I heard voices oh I heard voices +oh god +but what can I do, he doesn't +I know +he's too shy +boys +hey, say +yeah I know +and I said to her well don't she doesn't, she doesn't too shy +why, what did he say? +he goes oh I think, I've already changed my mind +does she still fancy him? +Daniel +that's nice, yes I get +yeah, wait, slow down just walk, walk Kilburn okay whoops have you seen they're gonna come up in a minute +oh no +oh Sarah get off +what time is it?, what, what, what time is thing? +I dunno +oh +I wish we didn't go in there, I don't like going in there +well would you walk round +oh it's funny, you just get the laser guns to you and you have to shoot everybody +yes, but I don't like going in there +it isn't, it isn't, it isn't where the arcades are, don't, that's just, that's just the waiting room, where you wait, erm, to have your go, what is it, do you play against each other or is there two groups of people? +two teams +do you get to choose your teams?have you been before? +no +neither have I +really itchy +oh shut up don't, right +I reckon I am +yeah, everytime you say that I start scratching, she's +no +oh my good +I know cos that's what Lucas said to you in it? +yeah +but he lied though, do you know why? +no +watch it +okay me, mum, I know, yeah, do you know how to cross the road? +where +I'm sure there's a bus strike +where's the thing?, yes it is a bus strike it said on the, on the +and yet we walked to school and we didn't see one +yeah, but that one was going the other way +yeah +what time did you catch a bus? +really, really, really, really late +well we, we, we never saw it +I know +unless we were just kind of indulge in a conversation and we didn't see it +that means we'll have to walk there if we go to +yeah +unless, unless you wanna go to your house, and then you come to my house +no +and then come to my house when you +you're coming to my house you know +yeah, alright, alright +at first, are we taking the tube alright?, you walk up and have a look +and then you, us go to your house and look and then and then us go to my house okay and then +yeah, but that's gonna take ages, it's, we're not gonna be able to get up to Kilburn on time +why'd you have to go home?, just to get some money, how much is it a pointer? +if you two take the +yeah, go to my house it's much quicker +and phone your parents at your house +yeah you can phone your mum, just say you're going up to Kilburn +no way +to buy, to buy some pens or something for school, cos I need to get a pen anyway, so it won't be, you know +catch a train now? +no quick increase your pace, increase your pace +aha, ah? +increase your pace, increase your pace, only joke, er, normally I'm made Amy's coming over this summer +is she? +yeah +stay at your house? +no +I'm not having them stay at my house, it's not big enough anyway +Sarah tonight I'm gonna stay at your house +not in my bedroom +I think so +no, no +hey, guess what?, and we'll buy some chips with vinegar +are you?, wow, just come to my house, don't go home +yeah can I phone from your house? +cos it's gonna take way too long, erm, yeah +of course +sorry I didn't take it in, yeah +of course, what you have to pay +what are you, you're given you're given her permission to phone +yes +from my house +yeah, yeah +do you pay the phone bill? +no, you do though +well no I don't, I +who pays your phone bill? +well my nan pays a third, no, a third of it my dad pays a third and my mum pays a third +oh +well, like, my mums and dads are all in one really so they pay +so they just get it out +two thirds, yeah +yeah +so you know a bit like that +so your mum doesn't charge you anything for using the phone +no +that's good +does your mum? +no +but, she prefers for me not to stay on the phone for very long she does +yeah +cos the phone bill +she doesn't like me doing +I don't listen, I mean sorry, I've got a frog in my throat, erm like, she tells me not to stay on the phone too long, but sometimes I have to, okay, not, not necessarily just as a conversation, but, homework and stuff +why you walking? +because the +there's a bus coming about every hour or something, it's quicker to walk +er, that'll teach her, see she's, teacher's name Sarah now and my names +yeah +yeah +erm train station +yeah +are you walking all the way down Kilburn high street? +yeah +I'd like to walk with top of station +where'd you where'd you live then? +I have to take the train down there +are the trains running alright? +yeah, I think so, they were this morning, where'd you live? +oh can we catch the train to Kilburn park? +yeah +eh? +I'll have to tell everyone that I don't fancy him any more +why?, don't you? +no +or are you just gonna say that +Daniel always keep going +oh look, I think he's quite flattered, you know +no +yeah, he is +er he maybe flattered, but no he must be humiliated +I don't think I don't think he's, er, he's not angry or anything he's alright about it +yeah, but, say someone fancied you +yeah, but, you're not ugly are you?, are you? +yeah, to his eyes I am +how do you know? +cos I know +he might be secretly +in my dreams, in my dreams in my dreams we kiss right +in my dreams +did you? +yeah +when?, what in France or when we got back or what?, or before?, how long have you fancied him for? +eh, I dunno, when I met him he was quite +a quick kiss then +cos I didn't really know him before +holiday romance +no +did you? +about +what about them? +what she gonna do? +Mr +yeah, he's gonna go bonkers +bye +see ya +bye she fancies +yeah +yeah +yeah have you done your English? +English? +yeah +what? +as in Mr English +what did I have to do? +extra scenes to that, to that play thing +ah +I dunno what to do, I mean +no, don't be bad +you see ? +yeah +yeah what time is it open?, kind of, if you, if we went now +yeah +what time would they let us in? +now +but isn't it every half an hour, every hour or something? +no, every twenty minutes +oh right +what's happened to your voice? +I dunno +oh bitch, er which one of you in here is called bitch?, what about the other person called bitch? +no +where's the one called bitch? +I dunno +walked under that bridge in it? +kind of like here +where's little map? +having a big map +ow, you suppose to +I don't know, he's gone home in it?, station +Roosevelt take it this way +no, been to big Macs house +Roosevelt +what? +what? +I've forgotten now, never mind +don't tell lies +no she likes somebody else actually +no, no, not the alarm clock +how does he know all of this?, do, do you talk to him?, do you tell him +your darkest secrets? +like, yeah +I know something that you don't know, I know +so +I know something that you don't know like, I know that you don't know +but I know +but I know +have you lot +I know something that you know something, she doesn't know, she knows like, she knows that, she knows that, she knows that, I don't know that, that she know +that you know +what I don't know I don't even know what I'm talking about +like this +she looks like +only because she one of them +I know, I don't suppose that he doesn't know I know, that he told me, not, no he actually didn't tell me, but +yeah +are you sure? +but you don't know what I know +and I know something that she told me about you that I know that she don't, she don't know that I, I know that, you don't know that, I know +oh can you +yes I do know +I know +Roosevelt? +no +yes come on, you've started it now you can't finish it? +no I'll finish it tomorrow morning +oh you better not say, something like +Bank Holiday next Monday +I know +no school, what shall we do? +we've got a +we have to go out +we've got an extra day , we've got an extra week +huh, yeah +yeah, you lot, you lot can speak to where you want +extra week for English +eh? +extra week for English as well, with Miss +oh god Sarah what's wrong with me?, must do all this walking like this +yeah +oh yeah, is it? +who? +go into the Burger King, put them into the Burger King, I've got to go and get out +it's not open yet though, open soon, look +you forgot it? +yeah, I'm gonna buy a big juicy burger +Christine +do you have an English name? +er, what's your Chinese name then? +oh yeah she lives round, er where them two live, one is my boyfriend +I know, but she's a bit fat though +yeah like you +no really, listen, I know a girl called +no +so do I +she's fat and ugly +here, you're talking tongue twisted +have you seen my very recent +oh, see it, some, I can't remember who it was, somebody thought she was dead +why, I don't want to see a cos everytime when I see her again it reminds me of Roosevelt +reminds me of Roosevelt +you're gonna say that, in it +but, she never used to have short hair did she? +who? +oh, did I look nice with long hair +no you look ugly, you look ugly now +urgh, look at that dress +ooh, you gonna wear that? +no I said er look at that dress +oh I thought you liked it +no +er there, er there alright +I go, do you like my red dress?, she said +yeah, yeah, yeah +she said oh I wish there was a big breeze blow my, up my +and everybody goes wow +Roosevelt I need to ask you some questions +you're not a virgin are you? +what? +are you a virgin? +what's it to you? +oh go on please tell me +no +no, you're not a virgin +no, I'm not gonna tell ya +no, why? +maybe she's ugly +people say that you went out with is that true? +no +yeah, yeah, yeah +alright then, so, yeah, I'll get you +Sarah, I'm not coming with you +why? +cos, turn that off for a minute +and I keep on saying, yeah it's true +cos what? +because erm, I don't, I don't want to +oh go on come +no, no I'm only going into Woolworths +yeah, I'm going into Woolworths, you have to go to as well +I'm going home because I don't really +alright +yeah +okay +no, it's personal only joke +you know for my to school and I like to say something about you know who oh it's true +where did you get that from? +that? +aha +this?this? +yeah +from people at university +it's yours yeah? +until they collect it, it's not, it's not mine to keep, have to give it back +but you're not, you're not doing the tape on and let anyone listen, yeah +no +good +why? +better not you know +you can listen if you want, only joking, no, I don't think I can do that, I'm allowed to listen to it, I have to record it at home you know as well +it'll be funny Mr knows about it, he might let me record the lessons that'll be quite good +there won't be much to discuss +doing it again +eh? +there won't be much to discuss +what in the lessons?, yeah, because you get to hear everybody speaking and everything erm +I wonder where Kate got to? +do you wanna go Woolworths now then? +yeah, I'm not going +coming back up, yeah we have to, well I'm gonna go then okay, cos we have to come back +yeah +after, we'll be wasting our time +yeah +bye +bye +otherwise we won't know what to do then because +yeah +like we pop home and that early because there might not be +shall we go my house first? +yeah +then to your house +so, I we're taking the train or walking? +hello we're going, well I'm gonna go home and then I'm gonna come up +yeah +oh I'm just +alright, I might see you in a minute then +okay love, bye +bye, bye +bye, she's walking there? +she didn't come with us, she, er, we lost her then, we lost her I don't know where she's going +are you walking or taking the train? +what back? +now +now +now +or coming back up to Kilburn? +yeah, erm now, shall we walk? +we might as well walk if we're here +yeah, otherwise you'll have to walk all the way down the hill +oh look at the pigeon, urgh +so we'll go to your house, go to my house, write a note +yeah +and then we, get my money, I've er over a hundred pound, then, go out, play a round whatever and then later I'll phone up Roddy, tell him to meet me on Saturday and he +tell him to meet you on Sunday, aha +no, no, no, just +where does Roosevelt live? +er +why's he coming down here? +because usually it's a knock away team, game er +don't or do? +do, I will say, I will tell him about, I always talk about him, right, he's yeah, +oh you want, you really want me to speak to him? +yeah, why?, what?,did,goes +what did she say? +she goes, she says like he's, erm, you know, he's always in erm high +she writes for all over her in her books +she say that, and she say that and she's always writing your name over the books and everything, okay, oh yeah, you must ask him if he fancies me and love him and ask him why he don't he phone me that often, ask him that, you must say, right yeah, but don't tell him that I told you to ask him, yeah +I'll just say do you phone her? +yeah, okay, phone her oh and he goes yes, yes +cos it's important to phone pe +he goes, he go you phone her very often, okay, okay +yeah +very often, okay and he didn't realize, he goes, and if he goes no, just, it's important phoning her you know, she feels happy everytime when she, you know, spoken to you +speaks to you yeah +and erm, if he goes yeah, really, well you know, you know that phoning peo your girl friends or whatever right,you know try to make him phone me +Daniel never phones me +and ask him how many letters, how many letters he does though, you +letters, what? +do what? +you can ask to speak to him and then you pass it over to me after you've spoken, yeah +yeah, of course +of course, you know, I mean,fo ,fo you know it's Sarah +picture him secretly without me knowing +urgh how old is then, fourteen? +yeah, he's gonna be fifteen this year, he's one year and a half older than me, so, and he goes, I told him okay and he goes you're young, and I goes I know +what? +what's a matter with you Roosevelt? +Sarah +yeah +what would you say yes on to that you're going out erm Henry? +who said that? +no one, nobody said +if, if somebody said Sarah's going out with Henry? +yeah +I'd say I wasn't going out with Henry +yeah, but if you keep on saying that and the other person keep on saying no you're lying +what, what is it right? +what would you say? +huh? +what would you say? +don't +what's this little bitch over here 's doing?, +I said you, I said I don't go out with and he's saying, she's saying that I do +let go +why you say I'm going out with +that's what I heard +yeah, but who said? +just ignore , I'd, I'd ignore the person, what, so if somebody came up to me and said you go out with Henry in it? +yeah +and kept on and on saying it +yeah +and I'd say +you say +no man, go +go away get a life +exactly, said to that, that person over there +shut up +you'd get a +pardon? +you'd get not a new one +I said let go man +what if they'd get a new +yes +why? +because she wants +so we're going to my house first, yeah +yeah +so it, your, your house, your, it's not too far to your house is it? +no, it's only going to take five minutes to get there +yeah +from your house +alright what number is it? +four and I'll get all the cash out first +I'll have to take my ba my building society book of and get a bit of money out, cos I'm short have to get, have, I've got some money to get just seventeen and like I've got two pounds extra right, and, I'm gonna need some money for the weekend. +What shall we do in the weekend?, are you gonna be able to make it this time if we do something? +Saturday? +yeah, can't do much on Sunday +erm +can't you go to Chinese school on Sunday +I'll have to remember +oh yeah, if he says yes +he will because it helps me out, so I don't say nothing, he says he can't wait +oh look my bags open, tt, I hate this bag it always comes open +by next Monday, you know Monday +Bank Holiday, yeah +we should go out with, with everybody, us and the boys +oh my god Daniel especially +oh course, aha, no, it's, it's not that bad going out with them they act a bit different, not much different, when they're on their own yeah, cos Chris came to the cinema by himself with us, with me and Kate +yeah +yeah +he was alright still a bit stupid, but he wasn't as bad as he is in class +like when er, when they're only, you know +find him civil +they're are okay, I mean, right +but with their friends they've gotta show off +yeah +and everything, so there so stupid +can't be +yeah +be cool and everything +yeah +I know +er, maybe it's my turn to +yeah it's nice, nice of you to phone her +yeah +you phoned him? +no +yeah sometimes, I've phoned him more times than he's phoned me, put it that way +me to man, I've been waiting about, nearly like three times +I phoned +a week and he hasn't phoned me once a year +don't phone him that often, Daniel's phoned me twice and once to ask me out +yeah +and second time was, was returning one of my phone calls +oh, oh, the thing is okay, did it, did erm, did, Daniel just suddenly like asked you out or did someone got you together? +no, he, it was, it was after the party, after the Christmas party and everybody was going oh Sarah fancies Daniel and Daniel fancies Sarah and then, but he was too shy to ask me, yeah +oh yeah, yeah +so, so then Anita goes, no I go tell him to put it in a letter then, yeah, and he was gonna put it in a letter and then he changed his mind and he said he was gonna ask me after school, but then he didn't ask me after school and Kate gave him my phone number and then he phoned me +yeah +and then he asked me then and erm, he didn't know whether to ask me or not, well he knew, he knew more or less I'd say yes anyway, cos I more, I'd already said yes, but not to his face, so but he didn't know whether to because Henry fancied me +when you ask someone out, I'm scared in case they might say no +I know +that's why I'm so excited +what about erm Wakey and erm Johnny and , are they gonna go to or not +should we or not? +eh? +eh? +should we? +up to you really +do you want to? +I don't mind +it's best to do it at weekend +yeah, more time in it? +yeah, do it on the bank holiday +yeah +if, if, it's open should we? +okay +come on then, you come into my house yeah? +yeah, not for long though +no, oh no Roosevelt's gonna see where I live +yeah +quick go slowly, let him overtake us, aha, no point +yeah man +it's your house okay +he won't really come up to your house I wouldn't think +Lucas knows where I live +Lucas? +yeah +round my area, that er, you don't have to take one minute, but it +where is he? +I dunno +ooh quick +does that he even noticed +he, that you, he, he, he walks in a, in his sleep, I saw him, he's in a daze okay then, I'll just tell my mum put my coat up hello, hi ya +hello +Hi darling +erm here, erm can we just go up to Kilburn?, to get some pens and stuff and I need to get some money out of my +why didn't you do it on the way home? +cos I need to get some money out to get +oh okay where's darling? +upstairs +was she alright on Saturday? +yeah no, what happen was the alarm went off in their block or something and they all had to go into a room, I don't know +she's +don't know, anyway I'll, I'll be back for dinner, yeah +how many sixes in fifty four? +oh, three, six +nine +yeah, nine, erm fifty four yeah, exact, nine exactly, okay then +alright darling, please don't be long will you? +no, what time shall I be back by? +tea won't be any longer than an hour, an hour and a half, shops shut at five, five thirty +okay, I'll go straight to my account and then go to Woolworths or something, saw nanny in Kilburn +oh good, is she on her way home then? +she's coming down +what you laughing at me? +I'm not +how many calories mum +seventy nine, so you had a roll tomato and cheese +okay then, bye, bye +bye +bye,you got black +bye +bye, I just have to get my bank book okay +why, to get some money out? +yeah, do you wanna leave your bag here?, oh no you're going to er +how comes you can get your own money out and I can't?, +I need my mum's signature +because this is, this is mine, mine in my own na , this is my own building society, this is for children to do +oh, right +cos usually you have to, it is my parents, I've got one in my parents name as well but it's just +so when you put your money in you get it out anytime +yeah, look, I'll show you, right it's right to save, yeah, Nationwide that +wow see man +that's, that's just, just what, that's what I put in and take out do you get me, hi you see, you know +er how much are you taking out? +I don't know how much to take, I might take ten pounds worth or something, I don't need that much why, I need some money for Saturday as well don't I?, shouldn't need that much though +I'll, I'll call it my dictionary of slang +Let's go into Woolworths , your dictionary of slang +I need to get a pen oh look I can buy a bed sheet , bed linen anyway, what? +who? +I always look at food, er +I know you're food man, mad, man , yeah, erm +where's the Easter eggs? +I don't know do they, have they still got Easter eggs, just +you like those Easter eggs, over there, what? +here we go got to get this +do they still have Easter eggs in here?, +I haven't been in here you know since +yeah there, idiot +I haven't been in here since I've come back from Devon +oh, this your +half price, ah +how much? +forty nine P +forty nine? +yeah, cos it's half, half that price, forty nine, fifty +is that nice though?, jelly in those +I like these ones how much are they?, +I like these to, shall I get one? +I put, get that and I go urgh in your mouth you know +I've already had some of these, we had this, whoops +put it in your mouth and it's awful +we had some of them at home, shall I get one of these? +are they nice? +yeah have you tasted the caramel ones? +yeah, you like it? +yeah +do you wanna get, shall we, do you wanna get one? +my friend bought seven for my kids, for her kids okay, they didn't like it, gave it all +yes +nice look +have you tasted this? +are they nice? +I don't know I haven't tasted it? +shall I taste, shall we get one as well? +it's only money +have you tried these before? +yeah +are they nice? +bit, it, it's +this ones much nicer +it's, it's, it's yuck +is it? +you're, don't you see erm Chris, what's his face on the coach when we went to France, this is what we was going to get +I know +Kate gob stopper look they've got what we were gonna get +do you like this or not? +that one? +yeah do you like? +love that +yeah +is it for you? +mm +ooh Kate +look Kate +ah +yeah +gob stopper +I'm gonna get some as well you know because I've only got one and it's brown, it's disgusting in it? +get a basket and we, I'm gonna get a lot of sweets, get a basket and put everything inside and I'm looking at +alright +put your things inside +wow, you can carry it +yeah +oh I love these +me to you know, how much are they?, fifty four have you tried these before? milk chocolate +I like these bar, you put, I always chewed them really fast +yeah +I like these put it this way I like sweets, oh look they've changed the bow +me to +they've changed the bow, oh it's a different make isn't it? +oh yes +it's Woolworths make,you getting some? +how much are they? +what one you gonna get? +what's it called? +you like that? +what were you gonna buy then if you've got a basket eh? +eh? +what are you gonna buy?, oh Kate look how cheap this is two ninety nine +oh I might get it +how much are they? +what about this one? +hold it Sarah , hold it +yeah, that's, that's a nice one +hold it while I'll try it +what does it look like here? +what do you think?, er +how much are they? +I don't know, how much are they? +one pound something +what colours that? +not even two pounds, do you think that's nice? +this is one ninety nine +that's not for, that's not a t for a test Sarah by the way +do you like this one? +so +erm, cos this is this one +yeah that +shall I get it?why?, +I'm getting shall I? +take two +you getting one?that's, that's rubbish oh look oh they're only two ninety nine +no that, that set of it, that game, it's all plastic in, look +it's so sweet +you're buying one now , there's no Easter eggs left, are there? +one time they had this big trolley of all smashed up Easter eggs and me and my mum kept running up to it and nicking bits of chocolate +I like all this stuff +yeah +eh? +nice in it?, +I like the hat, huh +ooh Sarah +ahem +I wanna +Do you like these mint choc biscuits Sarah? +Yes viscount +yes +yes +oh the first time I've had one +I don't like the orange +oh is there orange as ? +you can buy orange, but we don't have any here +I'm gonna pay the telephone bill tomorrow a hundred and thirteen pound, fifty nine P +Chloe says to me does the post office pay you? +I've got your black +she said who do you pay the bill to?, to I says the post office, well don't they pay you for having their telephone +ah, did she?, and what did you say? +all that +I said no, I wished they did but it's +yeah, does she use it a lot? +I dunno she don't +her and her pictures +when she makes her pictures went to doctor today +mum +did you? +went to doctor about me neck, you know +yeah +and she said it could of been +well +is it? +oh this awful pain coming I can't, move my arm and right side which is the side it hurts, and it goes all up here and it really hurt me to wash my hair, to bend over and wash my hair this morning cos she said +oh you went over then? +I said to her I had it in +and she said that, er +you're gonna have to come out cos I'm gonna hoover up in a minute +what did I do?, and I said I think I could of got it when I was in the car with uncle Reg and he, you know how mad he goes along the lanes +yeah +and he pulled off quick +oh, was that what it was and it jerked your head? +and it jerked me, but she said it's a muscle been pulled and it's, it keeps spasm so she said er, could of been nasty, said I daren't tell him, cos I says if I tell him it was his fault, I says he'll never give me another ride, it's again Thursday night coming back, and his car, you know the car kept, bump, bump, bump, bump, bump +yeah +and then Friday morning I was off with +rightio +but she's given me some deep cream, she says these spasms she +not +no she, he doesn't smell +oh +erm, she made me bend my head and I could only bend it a little way and she could see the spasms +oh +what are spasms? +like twinges of pain +she said you don't have to bend my head +not too bad,collar I am +yeah, but for you not to be able to bend your head +oh yeah +that far down and your head to be able to clear +some days I can bend alright, it don't hurt and other times I can't +I've got to put this cream on twice a day +er what can I do for my hand writing project nan? +and she says it can be +I've done like who'd like, Mary had a little lamb, Jack and Jill went up the hill +Hey diddle diddle, the cat and the fiddle, Hickory Dickory dock the mouse ran up the clock, one, two, three, four, five, once I caught a fish alive, just those,three times +is this your homework? +hand writing +you don't have to do it though +but that the, the, these are some things I've got, you don't have to answer them my name is Emily what is your name?, how are you?, +I'm fine, I like swimming, what do you like?, +I have two sisters, two big sisters, I have no brothers, do you have any brothers?, and +talk, talk slowly +I am ten years old, how +there, is, oh, how many years old are you?, +I live with my mum dad, nan and my sisters, who do you live with?, and the class have what class are you in?, +I've got the best teacher in the world, do you have a nice teacher?, +I am a girl, are you a girl or a boy? +correction , I've got the best teacher in the world +eh, eh +why, what's your teachers name? +I've got lots of good teachers +erm, poems, this +I never thought she'd settle down in school like she did, did you? +poem it called +she has +song with poem huh +what did +poem with song +pardon +didn't you thing I'd set +On Thursday, no, on Thursday we get the last period off, then we come home, home early on Thursday, Monday's Bank holiday so we don't have the school any school and erm, one day in May you're back with +Spill your drink all over my work +No I'm not +Well Monday is in May +yeah, but not that day, another day +another Bank holiday near the end of May +is there?, but we might get a day off in May any way +I really don't know Emily because I've never even heard of the work and I suggest you look at it in the dictionary +oh Sarah +yeah +what is? +accostic +accost, A, C +Sarah, why are you coming home early tomorrow? +A C , A C O S T I R X +why you coming home early tomorrow? +we're not, it's not tomorrow it's Wednesday, we get period one and two off so we only have half day +yeah why's that? +cos of English exams, I bet it, it won't +oh +could be that one I got you from er Brentcross +that's the Teterous +you mean a Sorous +yeah not a Teterous it's a Sorous +no, she might not cos she's in a different year to us +Sarah, it's er Mary's son plays it +mummy, we're gonna have an English exam at the end of year eight and we're gonna +well that's alright +no it isn't +we're gonna have, I mean, we're gonna have, as we go off we're gonna start giving talks and everything +there's a careers then +that's part that's part of our erm exam as well, oral presentations +that's alright +you'll enjoy that Sarah +oh I don't like doing all the speeches though +pardon? +I'm shy +when do you have to do the first? +we, that means I've got ex , it's because we don't have period one and two on Wednesday, yeah, that means we've got extra time for our French test, I think it was on Wednesday, extra time to practice +so what time are you going to school Wednesday?, you're home early Wednesday anyway, is it really worth you going? +or is it Wednesday morning you have off? +oh that's true, we only have erm, what, what do we have? +oh you're hurting me will you keep still +Sarah, is it Wednesday morning you have off? +yeah Wednesday morning one period, unless we go in after lunch, for +well then you'll only be there fore +no we don't we go in after break +what do we have on Wednesday for +if it's raining tomorrow yeah +what, what'd ya, what'd ya have, you've got +French, English, so we have maths and T V and that's it +have you been into the library +yeah +do you like it? +no +it's pretty +why, what have they done? +did you like it? +yeah +it still smells of paint +I'll call for you, +Quarter past, +Right down,then? +My dad, yes, when she's already gone. +So +We're well early today. +I've brought him, I've brought him at half five, because I was at the bus stop, leaning on the lamp-post and it was about twenty five past, and then he didn't come along to the next stop by and it got to twenty five to +Did you, you went to the one that we usually go to? +yes, not the one. +yes, but I mean, you see when you walked up from your house, you didn't Kate's one? +The one that Kate goes to sometimes. +Alright. +Michael +Is this, does this shirt look stupid? +No, it's . +I have to wear it too. +Would it be better like that? +No +No, +Thank you. +Kate was probably late again. +Walk to school with Ella. +Anna? +Ella,we've got next week for our +I know, he might still come in and collect it on Wednesday, but you can just say that you left it home because we don't have English that day now. +Have you done it anyway? +No +Oh, let me see your history please. +Windbag +I need to put some more stuff on on course this term. +What did you, did you do like a meal like chicken with potatoes and blaa, blaa, blaa, or did you just miss the foods. +I just missed the foods. +That's what I did. +Kate didn't. +But it's, it's the way you interpret it, as she says it, I suppose. +What you're really do. +Did you do any salads. +Yes, kind of. +Well +Kind of +I've done it but, I want to do it again. +I'm going to put some more stuff down for those. +Which ? +Put all +I'll show you what I did if you want. +It isn't much but er, +I'll show you what I did, did you have the list in your book, of the foods? +Yes, but, not +Yes +Because like the ones down there, they've got like, +Your history mark's at the back. +I did it like that. +Ah, that's good. +Oh, you've been +yes, I did it because it, it's too, I put that there's too much , what did you put for starters? +I put apples and bread +All the breads , did you put anything else? +Erm, I just put vegetables. +I put olives, oysters, smoked cheese, eggs and +What about, what about your main meal? +wild pig. +Why? +Because +Didn't you copy it out? +Tr ,sh , put some more down. +I've got some up there. +Have you, have you got potatoes anywhere? +No +I've got potatoes in the main meal, like chicken and potatoes or something. +All my has been the way it should. +Science, what one? +My history. +History? +yes, I was going to say art +I er, I can't, I don't know if I can use it or not. +Why? +Because, because it's like +What? +Because it's not on T P S, and, and it was given, it was given to a great-aunt or something, and she hocked it off him. +No, we're not going to put everything. +Well we said a new, an old +she, she either used a painting or decorating +I'm not ripping mine up. +You're not ripping mine up. +Main meal, what would a ? +Don't read all of it, I'm here. +It's alright, it's not as good as , goodbye . +What's another main meal? +I put main +Main what? +Main , I was supposed to put would be better than +Erm, you could put chicken with potatoes. +I'm going to have my sandwich now. +Chicken with potatoes? +Yes What else was there? +There was +I can go and look at their one. +No, no, no, no, wait, what other meat was there? +A fishy thing +yes, fish with wasn't it? +Why not put grilled fish. +What? +Grilled fish fish with whatever that was. +Miquaman +How do you spell it? +M I Q U A M A N They're my breakfast by the way. +That's it. +Are you supposed to put the price? +I haven't, no I didn't, I, I don't know what the prices would be anyway. +I know. +What do they use? +What are the roman coins called? +Shall we go and have a look then? +they've got some good things haven't they now? +Do they miss their food, or do they do meals? +No they, they done like just like +Did everybody do it like that? +I don't know. +Where's your badges? +Where is it? +It's there. +I like this one. +What does Jenny wish for it? +The ostrich, +We never did that. +And er they X-rayed me, and took a urine sample, took a blood sample. +Er, the doctor +Chorlton? +Chorlton, mhm, he examined me, erm, he, he said now they were on about a slide on my heart. +Mhm, he couldn't find it. +He said it could be anxiety or whatever at Hospital, just, so, it's not going to be any, +Nothing to worry about. +Good I'm delighted to hear that. +But he did say that, er, it'll take three weeks before he could and send along. +You know, he sees it, he can see the biopsy and all that. +yes +He says that I might not need to get it, right, because, if, he can only tell half my blood. +Mhm +So he says, he stopped right at the side of it right, yes. +Right, er, he also agreed with you about the lung and black, right, and he s , and he said the same as you that, erm, if it's got blood on you leave it alone. +Aye +He told me that same as you. +Oh aye, to take it out, it's not, it's not sensible. +Ah. +There we are young John. +I got it with a , because Hughie sold the +Sure, how are you doing with the, the drink. +Och, I have my good days and my bad days. +How many good ones, and how many bad ones? +today +Too many bad ones, I'm just glad to see you get off that top. +No, keep it down as low as you can because, the lower you keep it the less chance of there is of getting this biopsy done. +Half of them going to X-ray my back, and the X-ray doesn't. +Oh, the two? +They've done the lot, +Yes, +Front, back, side, +Yes, oh, aye. +There you are John, I'll get you +I was really worried about having this +He's getting worse, I mean, see last night, we went to bed last night,have done it, I'm losing it, I'm losing it, I'll get i +Mummy +Well it'll have to be school dinners Friday, is that what you've? +Yes, where's the hairbrush Emily, where did you put it? +Table +Why the hell do you have to spill it everywhere? +In this dish, Well I moved this. +Did, did you put it on there to measure it out? +You bozo. +What have I done now? +You're supposed to put it in there, because if it's up to there it's balancing. +Who's helping Kate darling, and if as she was moving the box, she +Oh yes she did and I went like this, +Oh yours it too easy, it's silly. +Amy it looked down. +What she had it here all the time? +No, she had it on there. +Exactly that's stupid having it up there. +You should put it there first and then taken them out. +Then you should move any obstacles before. +We're going. +Oh, stop making fun of me. +We'd better empty the whole kitchen then hadn't we? +Oh shut up you. +There you go. +Where would you put my +How much is there? +I weighed you two ounces. +I don't want two ounces. +Well put some back. +I won't, I'll just eat them. +Two ounces is a lot to have of cereal. +Is it? +For me, it is because I only have half of that. +How many, how many are you supposed to have? +Well there , there's no set rule is there, it's like saying +Two, eight, eight cal , +How tall is everybody supposed to be at the age of ten, that's stupid, that's really upset mum. +Just have what you want. +Well go, I think she's going to be shattered, I'd better wake up Jo. +Oh, Mummy. + +Oh just how are you? +Alright now. +Feeling better now? +Yeah +About the time I started me tape +What's it for? +Dictionary or thing, some come yesterday, anybody disagrees with being taped like I turn it off. +I get twenty five pound for it +No +Who've you had on it then? +Nobody +first one I've had, I hope it's recording tape that, it is, well what you got to tell us then? +Nothing +Nowt? +Oh, haven't seen you for weeks and you've got nowt +I've been bad for two weeks +Wendy, housewife, age fifty er how d'ya stop it? +Er +I get a twenty five pound voucher when she comes back next Friday. +For what? +Well just a voucher for twenty five pound to spend +Where you gonna spend it? +I dunno, dunno what it's for? +Just twenty five pound voucher, so which town, village city did you record +How's Paul? +Well he's alright like, but er phoned us yesterday, I wrote it down what he told us in the book, in there, cos it's confidential between him and the Co-op, but +so I'll turn this off +He collapsed at Debbie's on Wednesday night, well he fell, bumped his head sort of fall down so the doctor come yesterday, tt, and he had to stop in bed two or three days and go at the doctor's for ten minute appointment and he bloody test and to see why he's lost so much weight cos his legs are like that. +I said to well he was never bloody fat to start with it,dizzy so +Mm +he says his daughter's here from South Africa with her little'un, she's married to a Paki, but the marriage is like that. +No, what you buying with +Mm, mm, I don't know, I think one of me tablets, me, for me heart, they give me a different tablet like, it was a same like Heinz Beans or Cross and Blackwell Beans +Aye. +and I think that's upset me stomach +Oh. +I've had sickness, no I haven't had sickness, I'm telling lies, I've had diarrhoea and then I've been constipated and then violent pains and terrible +Mm. +it's bound to be going into spasm or something +Mm. +so I don't know whether it is that tablet, it's eased off now +Mm. +but it's all in me back +It's not that flu I don't think, Sam, Sammy Jo started with it, I mean she had the doctor out a week on Saturday, I mean she was ill and Sharon started her Sunday dinner, a week on Sunday, she never had her dinner, Sammy Jo never, er why me and Elliott left some, then on Monday she was really bad and Elliott was +Mm. +and I knew started me on me chest, so I had the doctor Tuesday all of us, but they went in before me +I know, when I was in the Sammy Jo were alright +Was it +Oh erm +last Tuesday? +yeah +Well where were you? +I was in the doctor's +I never see ya, I was sat +No it was early, Sammy Jo wasn't there, and I don't know whether they said Grant or Elliott , it was about oh twelveish +No, all went in together we, ten past five our appointment was for all of us +Yeah I asked Sammy Jo, she said something about the Sunday +Oh, five to er +Sharon had altered it or something cos you all went in at five to five or something +No made appointment +Yeah +Sharon hadn't altered it +What they'd already made an appointment for Sammy Jo well that's what +Oh, oh oh that was for her ears +Mm. +yeah, but when come, come on Saturday she looked in her ears cos Sharon said she had to go back with her, she says I wait don't go ears are cleared +Mm. +er and Sharon never alt er cancelled that, well they come out and they said they'd had Chinese flu so when I went into and had me chest done, I says I've got the flu like, she says yeah she said I says I, I know, I said they've got that Chinese flu she's be +I says have I? +She says no, I says have I bronchitis? +She says no you've just got a very infect on your chest, but, I did have a cold that night, yeah sneeze +No I haven't had a cold or anything on me chest +what with them being sick you see Sharon and the babe +Mm. +I dunno if Elliott were, but he was off work about a week so +I have to go back again Tuesday +Yeah, folk here just never been out since New Year, then she had to work at the hospital Tuesday, well Bradley said if you don't feel fit enough phone up and we'll send a nurse to you I said you're bloody mental, you ask for everything you get, I said instead of phoning the nurse in, ah but I think Alison told me they both need a good, good bloody feed they do +Did she? +Ooh I, I mean being in a right mess +Mm. +and I went with her last week, then she had to go again on Monday, but she went Saturday as well, then she had to go back up Monday the last, so she hasn't been haven't seen her since I've been gonna go up all week but the weather +Mm. +well I hadn't been out from Monday till yesterday Sharon's at the hospital now with the babe +mm did you have a nice birthday then? +Ah yes and no +Oh. +yeah it was alright, I think it was me that was being a bit, got a bit het up in case anybody had too much and started you know +Aye +but it was alright +I thought that was why you hadn't been round cos I never come +No +went to Stella's er mine last Friday you know? +Oh was it? +Mm +Oh happy birthday for last Friday Sheila +Fifty two, aye er one date last Friday +Ours came across with a card +Aye, ours did. +and I was busy in the kitchen when she come, oh are you having a party? +Yeah, oh dear +I don't know about +well there you go +and ours is thirty two pound a year Wendy +Thirty two pound a year? +I said I don't know how you dare sit there and say you haven't paid that Alice, she's paid a fiver I says I'd be ashamed, I said I wish mine was only that, so she phoned up to make arrangements to pay it a pound a week thirty two pound, that's all hers is Wendy, for the year +And sounds also she's getting that cold weather payment +She is, yeah are ya? +Can't have it. +Why? +Cos I can't, only people +Why? +with children under five or on Income Support or +Disabled. +disabled, yeah +Why, you're classed as disabled +No I'm not cos I only receive Invalidity +Does Phil not class as dis +No +Well Kay says it's not on Income Support, it's children under five, over sixty and er disabled +Yeah, Income Support with an underlying something or other +Yeah +she said +as, that's the way it is, I said now Joyce is over sixty, she doesn't get it our Kate and Sandra don't get it cos they haven't got a bairn under five like you know, Beverley gets it, Alex +Mm I can't I don't know +Kay +yeah I know +Kate did last time when they got it +I said well it's funny how a friend of mine gets it, she says well she must be on Income Support with an underlying something like an, a different pension on top of her Income Support, which she is isn't she? +Cos she got that fifteen percent disabled I think +Yeah disabled yeah +that's why she gets it +yeah but she's on Invalidity though +Mm I know +still +how I don't know, we can't have any rebate +No I know, it's all wrong Wendy +Mm, mm +it is all wrong, cos I says to Stuart we had, we were at him Monday, I says why is it this year I says I get a, a thing to go to court on Monday, I says and yet last year I says I didn't pay mine till end of February she says oh well they're getting stricter this year she says, oh you've got a court thing fifteen pound and I says yeah and she says paying that, I said no I'm not paying that cos I pay what I owe, I said but I'm not paying the fifteen pound court cost +Mm. +well Kay said you should go and tell 'em I said I'm bloody not, I mean the rates isn't finished until the next month Wendy the fifth +No no, so everybody should be given it up till then to pay anyway shouldn't they? +but she said if you haven't paid your first half, they demand the lot, which I know that +Mm. +well I'd only paid me first month you see twenty two thirty +Mm, not paid any more +so how much is yours? +A hundred and thirty eight +A hundred and thirty eight er +each +yeah I know, yeah but theirs is forty something +and Steven's is a hundred and thirty eight +Oh is he working then? +Aye oh well he should get another forty for it +Yeah he did +Oh +and it's now a hundred and seventy seven I think +Mm well her was only thirty two Wendy, I don't know so she's only +Well they just tell lies Sheila that's all +she was on about it, I mean John hasn't got er, a bill and Tony hasn't like, well he's not down, but David's got a bill and he should be up court on Monday +Mm, why ain't John got one? +They haven't sent him one Wendy they haven't sent him one, yet he had one the the time before +Year before +which I don't think he paid like, so I don't know +I don't know, I mean even her father's got his bill in the army Wendy +Mm +so, but she said on the day when she come over and she getting a letter off the Social about what interest we pay on the house she's got, she says they don't pay any, she's, for last two or three years, they haven't paid any, she had to fill his side in and send all his side to Halifax or whatever, she's er +Have they? +and she says she's still as bad off now as when she went in to get the house, you know the five thousand odd, she's would, she's, she's, I had a bit last, I, I wished you had it all, I said don't lie, I said don't tell me you haven't had it I says cos you have, she says yeah, I says what you done with it? +I says you've just wasted it, er tried to say she hadn't had it like, yeah I I'm not in turn it off you been hospital? +Eh? +It's a survey I'm doing, record people that come in on conversation and who's talking and +That's why I've been quiet for two hours +Nana what it said +Ah, ah, don't touch, it's +What is it? +You have to sing into that, can you sing? +Yes we've been to the hospital mum and they said er he is at er okay +Oh are they? +No not really +Why? +The right one's okay but the left one's still got a bit of infection so they don't really know +Have they +so she's got to go back in a few weeks' time +Oh +to get it checked again, what you not talking for Wendy? +Don't you like being on tape? +Have you had a drink yet? +Not very good cafe this is it? +you're not a housewife are you? +Or are ya? +Houseperson +I'm amazed, er what you got to fill in ma? +Just who it is and age, Yorkshire and what they are, friend, daughter or if you're English or not or +Oh have you got to go +Nana can I have biscuit? +no I take the +take the shops just I put on my thing and +When have you got it like? +Next Friday, twenty tapes left, batteries +it's alright for twenty five pounds +Hello can you just talk to me +talk into me chest +She left 'em yesterday, nobody's been, just Wendy +Free to talk here +I don't think she's on here, we only had +just say hello Wendy +I had it pinned on the curtain, I thought well anybody will be able to er record into that will they? +Has Glen been? +No +Nana can I have some pop? +Yeah, have +That's a nice +Coke +Get up +You been hospital? +Look in your ears? +And what did they say? +Her ears,drawn a picture didn't they? +Did they? +When they sang, when that bird sang in your ear, it went +Bird sang in your ear? +Get off me +Mum I want some pop +Just wait a minute then +Got ya, got ya coat, mum pass me your coat +Watch me tape +Oh what's that for? +right see ya bye Wendy +Enjoy your taping +Shout bye +Bye Sheila +Bye, see you later +Will ya? +Say bye Wendy go on say something +Did they come round with the mike? +Yes she come yesterday afternoon I sat and I says I'll have a go, I says then I had flu didn't I? +I says you gonna talk? +He says +Aye +he wouldn't talk I says no names mentioned, well it is I have to put there and there like, but Aye twenty tapes, you don't have to use all the tapes, like you know, just,for different languages +Different what? +Different languages like dictionary you know and puts here whether you're Geordie or Irish and, that's why you have to put what accent they've got, see what different words you use so you've +never been to school again have ya? +Eh? +Eh? +Aye you wanna say hello? +She said to me you can go and get it out, honestly, you know the other day he could hardly s well y you could see but not nearly as good as this +Er +when was it Wednesday? +er +Really thick +Yeah +so I said erm cos I've been in so I says to her cos you want some fags +Mm. +well I'll get the car and you can go out, I says you're not getting the car out and I'll not go I said you can go +Mm. +anyway he walked, he was only away about twenty minutes you know he wanted to get the car and for me to drive I thought well er +Not in this weather. +I mean er, it wasn't necessary +No. +I mean today I'm not gonna open me shopping on the bus but I mean it's not nearly as bad as it has been +No it's not +I mean +going in and coming out +It's, it's bad enough but +Yeah +you can drive you can see it anyway +Yeah +but Wednesday you could hardly, I said I'm not +No +I said you can go +cos I washed er Wednesday, cos Tuesday I was going out, go out to see the mother then drop off at your house, but +Oh we couldn't +cos Kenneth come up early on, he says it's like this night he says I'm not properly, ah right, I says I might I says were that like, I says, I says what time? +I says oh I dunno, I said oh Sharon'll fetch dad over, so we sat waiting for her and then they come +Well it doesn't start till nine anyway, so you could er if, I mean if he wasn't here by +I thought you wanna be there +quarter nine +you, you weren't there were you? +No +No +not +I thought you wouldn't be +I can't afford it to, apart from that I mean and it was +Yeah +still on edge +Yeah +but I mean +Yeah +so I dunno, if I want to go out in it, he's gonna have to go and get somebody else, I've got time off, I mean I've gotta go out tonight, I'm on me raffle, monthly raffle +Yeah +tonight and then I'm on me raffle next week, but after next, I mean I can stop in the next, I mean I was, I've never been out since a week on Tuesday cos I wasn't on the raffle Friday +No +I never went out Sunday, I haven't been out Tuesday I just thought you know good still find the money for it still it's amazing how you do +No +Did Sharon finish that cardigan that she was knitting? +Aye +Did she +tried it on +was that Jackie? +Yeah +Right +Aye she, just, she got some more pink wool Monday when we went to town, er like like an +Do you +yeah like angora stuff +no +Cos Harry wasn't in again on Sunday +Yeah he was yeah Harry was erm +probably fell out with me +She got this pink wool like angora twenty five pence a ball, so she started that, then she come on er, no Tuesday, with that she bought some needles cos if she'd of had some more needles I could of done this one for er, now she's got the back and er sleeve done I think, half a sleeve done I think +So she's right +It's green, it's alright, the only thing is the band where you know you leave your loops on then, where it's joined at the back +Oh +where that one I haven't put on I just do the bands +Oh yeah +just the same oh she bought a new pattern, but she says you can have that, it's only plain so +Ah is the band not joined on? +Yeah, yeah it is +Is it? +but I'm not doing it that way, cos you have to join it at the back +No, is the band not knitted on? +On there +Yeah +Why aren't you doing it that way then? +Well you have to join 'em at the back +Where? +What's +You'll still have to join it at the back +how's that? +I'll just make a full band, stitch it on +Join it in +stitch it on through the bottom round +Ah, well you'll have to take it up there then, you'd be better off joining it at the back if you're gonna join it +Well you can see where it's stitched up the back, you can on Sharon's +Er not if you stitch it properly, get it through the loops, don't, just cast off slack and stitch them together, you not, you not be able to tell +Ah just er how I used to do years ago +I like it when the band's joined on +Yeah but you only knit on the welt, then you put the needles on it spare pin, on a pin +No +You do +I'm talking about the ones, the ones what I like knitting er where you knit the band on all the time +Oh no they're not +Ah, that's what I'm saying +Oh I've never had one of them +them, baby cardigans I used to knit +Oh +you used to just, it was just knit +Aye, aye +er like not rib, a band where it's just +just lines aye +Aye +where you knit all the time +Aye +no they're you put your needles off your welt, you iron on er, er +Is this for Sammy Jo or not? +Yeah, aye +Well I showed,Sandra thought she couldn't knit didn't she? +Yeah +Look what she's knitting, do +Aye she's put, she's knitted a jacket for herself +Oh has she? +and knit a jumper for Michael an'all, when Michael's in she knits him a jumper, the jumper +Best that way then you don't get sick +Eh? +It'll be better that way if you, like you're knitting with two different colours +Aye +won't it? +Yeah +Then you won't get so sick +Yeah yeah so ha +Oh dear, dear, I've just felt +Aye, I've not been outside, so, Alison didn't go last night +Did you go over last night though? +Yes +Tony's bad so I, she stopped in, oh well, he would stop in if she were bad wouldn't he? +Eh? +Oh yeah, are you recording this ? +When he come, when his first one on, said she bet nobody, why Alice come last night at six o'clock but I didn't put them on, I was only at the, I take to the shops you know you do, you have to put the name who you're talking to on +What's it for then? +It's all about languages for dictionary you know like +Oh you'll get some language off us, good job it's +difference like Yorkshire, Geordie, Welsh or owt like that +Could of been using me French +and I says I have one not to swear, so it gets rubbed out if it's too bad, you know she comes back, she comes back next Friday, she left twenty tapes and batteries +Twenty +I needn't use 'em I mean +they're all marked and er +No he went out last night +I thought you wouldn't +Er you get twenty five pound voucher +What to do with it oh getting +I went where yest was it yesterday? +No the day before, a parcel come, I thought oh good what was it? +It was Timmy's shoes and on, on the thing it's got, items so and so out of stock +I ordered some things yesterday, they sent us another catalogue then, two skirts and two blouses +You can't wear what you've got +Aye well the blouses last, round buttons, down so I +Like that +skirts is elasticated, yes +that erm really colourful one I got with elastic +Aye, a purpley and +I'm never comfortable cos it comes up here +Aye well one of mine is +I +that bluey one is, right, +half of them I think, I think it's a bit tight the elastic, it don't sit on your hips, aye it too +and it twists, my blue one and that +Oh it doesn't twist, but it +No that one doesn't +don't, uncomfortable +Yeah +If I didn't have a tummy it'll be alright, you know they're +Aye +of course it would, but it's not long enough to bag +Yeah, aye. +Oh I wish I hadn't to go out tonight +So I ordered them sixty odd quid I ordered a green, a jade skirt +So it's nine o'clock +half elastic and it's like pleats at the back and er blue, nearly blue pleating and these two blouses, er I try, if they're not any good I'll send the buggers back +Oh aye +I went to change me poll tax and er I says to her, I says, I should be court to Monday oh she says you've got a fifteen pound court thing, I says aye, she says oh well that's fifteen pound, I says it's not cos I'm not paying it I says I'm not paying the fifteen pound to the court, I says, I says how come last year I didn't pay right round to February last year I said and yet I, your last payment's next month, you know, she said oh well they're stricter this year she says, she, if you'd pay the half year you'd of been alright +Mhm +you know, if you don't pay half year they come and demand the lot which I can't make that +Yeah +it's all I said no it's not I said I paid me first er payment I said wrote it down on one of those papers +no +it was a hundred and seventy eight pound odd +That'll be for the issue of the summons that, fifteen pound +They're not getting that well +You're gonna have to sit talking cos I've taped that +Oh I'm gonna talk to myself +Oh +Is that John's van there out the front? +Aye that white thing is years old +I thought, cos there's a car up road with it, must of been stood there like all the bad weather +Oh +ee and you want to see the colour of it +Sorry about that +Has he? +Pa phoned yesterday +Still in bother? +No he's, he's being moved to troop fifteen +To where? +Troop fifteen +Oh +it's still a but it's a different camp, but I wrote this time because what he tells us I forget, I don't know if you'll be able to read it or not so +I said, well the, the kids we love it with George cos he's got a smashing sense of humour +Oh aye, yeah +he's a great kid and he's madly in love now +Oh is he? +Oh lovely lass, Erica really nice, been married before, but she had a terrible life +Mm +no offence like, which was, they our George I think +Mm +but er he's really happy +Oh well +I says do you think you'll be setting up home together next, he said I don't know, maybe, it's a big step isn't it? +Like to lay a few pounds like +Mm +you know, cos I mean he is +Yeah +lad +Yeah +our George +Mm +I said well don't go out till you're ready, as simple as that, if you don't think you're ready stop the way you are +Mm +that's important +Aye +but he loves what he's doing, absolutely loves it cos there's nowt for them here is there? +No +And that nothing at all for them no +er forty nine +Not yet +No +forty nine +A Geordie +A Wearsider +Oh +I'm not a Geordie +Well you're down as a Geordie +Did you see her on Take A Break the snooker game she was from Sunderland +He says are you called a Geordie she says no I'm a Mackem he says what's a Mackem ? +She says Mackem and Tackem I dunno but that's what people say +Oh +I forgot where she lived red light murders +Aye, outside the Blue Monkey Nightclub in the town centre +Oh +twenty three, somebody was it he's stabbed +Aye +there were a lad on here today from Dunscroft, oh you'd have the telly on +I'd have the telly on, +er some competition +sitting in from Dunscri Dunscroft, he was on he won summat +Oh +last week +Oh +had the key +Oh +was as drunk as the lord last night +Yeah +this lad was, now he was, coming in the bar, he sat just as you come in the door and then he moved to that long thing where we sit, well I go at the bar and Jackie was sat there Jackie, I said time to be social, no I cos I laugh, I were laughing me head off me and he's jabbering away move like that, his arms moving you know, then he sets off to sing, well,la, la and Johnny said shut up I know Johnny put his glass of beer on the next table to ours and sets off to see Mickey, then he stands up this lad sit down you,must have thought for his beer, I think he was like, I says to Jack I says er you want to put his trousers is all undone, you know sat and his trousers what and his jumper, so our Johnny went he said get that covered up and, but he pulled it down like that, and now he took 'em out he walked through the door and his trousers were falling down but +What is he very old? +No, only about I'd say late twenties Ed, you know, do know what it was though, he never had a drink he just sat there talking to himself, having a good chat to somebody , aye +How is the mother have you head? +Oh er Sandra went to see see Jason or anybody +Jane uses the car then on Friday didn't she when she's been hairdressers? +Yeah, unless I dunno if she's gone up home she's getting a lift off erm thingummy +Doris +Doris and somebody weren't one of her lads getting engaged, I dunno if it was +Oh +like this weekend or, or what or what +Er little Ronnie's had a baby girl +Ah has she? +three pound something +Ah bloody hell +calling her Rachel +Oh +oh she's got her lass ain't she? +Aye, I'd love to of had a lass +Aye +Aye, but +three pound odd +bloody hell +Aye, I don't know how many ounces it was, three pound something she was, yeah +I dunno if it's tape's finished or what +Well stop it and open it +Right don't everybody stop talking now cos I've put it on +Michael, Michael give us a song, sing, sing a song, sing +do you want one? +Yeah, I've got these +What you got there? +See five P, ten P +There's no more left these plastic +What's the other one look, there's a black beard on in there +That's Sammy Jo's +You can spend that you know +What? +That's real money, old one, you try and spend others or, five P, now watch that ashtray +Whose tickets, whose , whose class is it Nicola, yours or Michael's? +What me mam's got +Here are then, can have that one, don't lose that it's worth a lot of money +Don't take that to school +She can take it Princess Diana +Oh +there's one for you same as Nicky I've got, here are, there's another one, different one to that, there's Nicola's, leave 'em there I haven't got a Diana, the Queen Mother and the Queen left talking about my girl, my girl +Oh what's this? +Sing, Michael sing +No +baa, baa black sheep have you any +no, no +sing, sing +No +that's er +Brown +Kenneth +he can't, cats and dogs +Oh look a number one +Two R, what's two R? +A number one +That must be foreign +it's a number one +That's our penny, yeah there's two R I dunno what it is but it's full +Take me freezer bags +Give us a song Nicola +no +I close my eyes +I think she must've gone to town +drew back the curtains ah, ah +I've done the back, sleeve half a side +to see for certain +Sharon's done hers, she's done the green one, she's on to the pink one +Professional microphones innit? +Stick on the collar +I found a pattern of hers, jacket in white in that bag what for a cardigan I wanted to do for school +No it's five pence +No I know, well +have, what you doing? +Don't lose them, no you don't need them +What? +You don't need them +Well I do +you need them, you don't need none of them, don't lose them two big ones cos I'll be after ya +No you won't put this in, in that +I close my eyes +Oh no, these are big ones +No leave those big ones, they're mine +I put my +Quick tip them all out, tip them all out +Nana where did you get that? +Er a lady fetched it er for us to do and she comes back next week for it, just to put it on when anybody's in, just a conversation, for new words for a dictionary or something +Oh +I just have to put it on when we're talking and it goes on the tape you see +Then you can put it back, it will go any time won't it cos my mummy's got one but hers has got a radio +I have to turn it on +Oh he knows twinkle, twinkle you don't know twinkle +Yes I do +twinkle twinkle little star how I wonder +twinkle, twinkle little star how I, star +twinkle, twinkle little star how I wonder +twenty nine +Mm, yeah, +Accent, Yorkshire Yorkshire, Yorkshire +Talking about my girl +Your mum's a Geordie +A Geordie what am I a Yorkshire? +Mm, mm +And Paul is +that's right +you wanna play wrestling +grandson +wrestling submit +Who is that, that lady? +submit, submit yeah +give in +what whoever's gonna speak +Mm +submit +no +ah, you +ow +sub submit +No +When you doing the shop like, next week? +I don't know, when we get some more money, loads of money and some things for 'em, I, I forgot what you call, newsagent +bull fighters +something like that what we make it into er +Er +where you get brochures and things to go on holiday, what? +don't know what you mean oh like er, like where you go to book your holidays? +Yeah, like on a trip to Marks and Spencers +Er pil give up +when we went to Marks and Spencers on our trip we went there an'all +Did ya? +er what they call them places where you go and book your holiday? +Travel agents +Travel agents +Yeah +right +You're a loser you are +I know I am trying to think +I want it, it's my biscuit +Oh +Aye, if there's any +did you shop yesterday mam? +No I went tomorrow +When did pa come back? +Last night +Mm +Have them +I suppose so mm +Shall I put this back +Give us that cracker thing I put this, where's this, where your dad put the screws? +I don't know +On top of the thing there, look +Where? +I mean the +true +Insy Winsy Spider go on +No insy winsy spider climbing up the spout, in +down came the rain drops and washed the spider out +No +sing Miss Polly +Miss Polly had a dolly who was sick, sick, so he phoned for the doctor, quick, quick, quick you sing it +Miss Polly had a dolly that was sick, sick, sick +No he don't +so they phoned for the doctor very quick, quick, quick +Quick, quick, quick +Said Miss Polly send her straight to bed +and he wrote on the label for a pill +he says I'll be back in the morning +with my bill, bill, bill he knocked at the door with a rat a tat +with a rat a tat, tat what else you know? +insy winsy spider climbing up the spout again +What else, what else do you know? +insy winsy spider climbing up the spout +no one, two, three, four, five, once I caught a fish alive, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, then I let him go again +again +why did you let it go because I caught my fingers so +That one +which finger did it bite, this little finger on my right +Right +You sing it sing it +Miss Polly had a dolly who was sick, sick? +Yeah, that one +Singed it +Sing it again +Na +Na sing one +Miss Polly had a dolly who was sick, so he phoned for the doctor be quick, quick +What else?said Miss Polly to the doctor +No +What is it then? +Miss Polly had a dolly who was sick, sick so he phoned for the doctor to be quick, quick, he phoned for the doctor to be quick +he knocked on the door with a +with a rat a tat, he phoned for the doctor +Yeah, then what happens? +he knocked on the +he knocked on the door with a rat a tat tat +he knocked on the door with a rat a tat tat +said Miss Polly put her straight to bed +to bed he wrote on a paper a bill, bill, bill +I'll be back in the morning with my +in the morning with my pill, pill, he knocked on the door with a rat a tat tat +What's that other one? +Insy spider +climbing up the spout +We do it like that +Come on, you do it +Insy winsy spider climbing up spout, came the rain and +Is that right? +Insy winsy spider climbing up the spout, down +That's enough +What's the other one? +fish like? +Five little ducks went swimming one day +Yeah five little ducks went swimming one day +one day over the +hills and far away +far, far away mother duck says quack, quack +four little ducks came swimming back +came back +four little ducks went swimming one day over the hills and far away +over the hills and far away +then the little duck said quack, quack +quack, quack +What you saying here, what is it? +three little ducks came swimming back three little ducks went swimming one you sing it one day over the hills +over the hills and far away that's enough +one little duck went +one +said quack, quack +four +no one little duck said quack, quack, two little ducks came swimming back +I've got a race +two little ducks went swimming one day over the hills and far away +went swimming one day over the hills and far away +one little duck went +tickle your ear +quack, quack +the one little duck said quack, quack, quack and all the little ducks came swimming back +I'm not on that one yet +That's what it is +That's last one +Yeah I know +I'm on number two quack, quack, one little duck came swimming back, one little duck went swimming one day over the hills and far away one duck said quack +far away one duck said +quack, quack, quack, quack all the ducks came swimming back +I got it +So you make a better door than a window? +No +caught a fish like +why +Why did you let it go? +because it bite my finger so +my finger so +which +which +finger +oh I, I can't hear ya +this little finger on my right +What they gonna do to him then ? +right +They gonna kill him? +Watch it +Watch it +I hope they kill him, say I've never seen +ah it's boring innit? +I think he should slice his face up very small +What other one? +Miss Polly had a dolly who was sick, sick again +Miss Polly had a dolly that was sick, sick, sick +Miss Polly had a dolly who was sick, sick, sick so he phoned for the doctor to be quick, quick, quick +phoned for the doctor to be quick, quick, quick +he said Miss Polly put her straight to bed, he knocked on the door with a rat a tat tat you do it like that +Oh do you? sing then +not like that you do it like that +Like that? +Yeah +Okay, sing it then +Miss Polly had a dolly who was sick +Now you sing it loud +no +Do it like that +Like what? +ah, will you do it properly? +Yes I said +Have a job staying here +you've gotta go with daddy in a minute +No no +Why? +on me own +On your own +Stay there +that milk and I'll get you another one +I wanna do all of them on me own so he phoned for the doctor to be quick, quick, quick, said Miss Polly put her straight to bed he wrote on a paper for a pill, pill, pill +I'll be back in the morning with my bill, bill, bill +morning with my bill, bill sing +I don't know it +Miss Polly had a dolly who was sick +no +sick +There was an owl whose names was Blanche perch bravely on a narrow branch when she asked if she could fly, the others said into the sky high, high, high, so one fine day they came out and stood on a branch all big and stout, she jumped, she thought that she could fly +Ow animal is a bit a finger +Just leave it there +It don't go there +It does +It don't +What is it? +What is it? +Well +Nana what is it? +What is it? +What is it? +Microphone +It's nana's lipstick, put some lipstick on +you put some lipstick on, you've got to sing when you, when you put it on though, sing a song and put some lipstick on +No +I close my eyes, drew back you sing, you put some on +No +Oh, put it back like that then +Is that, is the lipstick at back? +Yeah, but you've got to sing when you put it on +What did he do to him? +Try it on then +put it on you? +No, turn it on +It's on look, it's that colour lipstick +Turn that on what's in there +What? +that owt in there +No leave it switched off +It's not off? +It is switched off +Where? +That thing +Yes leave it off +It's not off +It is off +It int like that +It is +It int look at it, not like your face +Boom +Boom boom do it boom, boom I break your neck off +Er +I'll break your neck off +Ow +I'll break your finger off +ow, oh, ow, ow, ow +do it again +No it hurts +Done, it didn't hurt me didn't hurt me, did it hurt you? +Ow, ow, ow, ow +Tell Becky to wear them break your fin your little finger +No I break your finger off +no, no it hurts I've turned thing round, I put it there +No leave it on top +I can put on it +it's too hot +it's too hot you, it's too hot, it's too hot +Right say ta, ta, say goodbye, say goodbye +Goodbye +Louder +No +Now say goodbye to it +No +Say goodbye +No +Goodbye +No +Quick +No +Say goodbye +No +My palace if I were a king it's more than a palace it's my everything. +As a Queen waiting there with the silvery hair. +In a shanty, in old Shanty Town. +a king it's more than a palace it's my everything. +As a Queen waiting there with the silvery hair. +In a shanty, in old Shanty Town. +Yes sir! +It's alright, it's a survey I'm doing. +Aye. +Got to get all these voices on it. +Just for languages for the dictionary. +Oh dear. +But not swearing. +They want some fresh language. +Fresh new words for the dictionary. +You can talk Charlie. +Just talk normally, you know it doesn't +Aye, I know, I +matter if there's any swearing on +they'll cut it out. +Oh they, oh well +He'll cut it out, yeah, yeah +Aye, aye. +Aye, put a bleeper on it. +Aye. +I just have to have all your names down and your ages and what +Aye. +Yorkshire. +Are you Yorkshire? +Lincolnshire are you? +Where are we? +Just, just I'm Yorkshire +You are borders, aren't you? +But er +Yorkshire. +well, yeah +Yeah, but your accent +Humberside, isn't it like. +is Yorkshire. +Used to be Lincolnshire. +Well I, I thought we were all in the Yorkshire region. +Aye, I always thought it was to with Yorkshire. +Yeah. +Cos, aren't they, they're on about again, you know. +Aye, they are. +it's, it's Nottinghamshire. +Aye, up there. +I used to go in Taylor's, Taylor's you can be in three different counties in his yard. +Three different counties +Cos South Yorkshire comes so far do down Doncaster Road, don't it? +Aye, it does, then it says welcome to Humberside. +New, the new one is it? +You can tell it gets very rough. +Aye. +Aye, the forgotten land +Steady down. +innit? +Steady down. +Aye +Well, you know, if, if they come like the bloody clappers there! +Oh. +Int there er, int there a gravestone or summat on that side +Aye, with a pony and trap run away . +Many years ago he were coming home +Oh yeah. +What, with an horse and cart like? +Yeah, that's where he got, he got struck by lightning. +He what? +Got struck by lightning. +Did he? +Yeah. +I thought pony run away. +I heard +Into that big dyke. +Into the stone or something? +Yes, it's still there! +I remember it when I were a lad. +Still there. +Still some people go and stop and have a look at it like. +Oh aye, it's still there. +Is it, is the writing and that on it? +Yes! +I mean years ago you didn't have barriers up. +I mean +It must've laid down +No it's still stuck up. +Is it? +Yeah. +I've got some cyclists up at Haystock but years ago I mean when they coming up there, it's a long road from Doncaster Market an an an deep old ditches +Well you used to have some good effective carts there. +They was six, they was six or seven foot high when you were sat in them, weren't they? +Oh aye. +Come on Tom. +Didn't there used to be a cottage on that roadside where them big tanks is, didn't there used to be some cottages. +Used be a barn there. +Weren't some erm farm cottages there as well. +Aye, well, they, they, were only, they, they, they, were put up later them. +Like prefab things? +Aye. +Aye. +Crossroads and then you keep going +Yeah. +and then it's all flat +Aye. +Them on Doncaster road's been knocked down, haven't they? +All knocked down and then, and then you go to Jackson's place, don't you. +That were a poultry farm. +That's right, aye, aye, I've seen his +and the sells +That's right, yeah, yeah. +How are you feeling +Not very well. +No, look at the weather. +to get up here, I'll tell you. +Oh dear. +Bloody headwind and and all that bloody air about and I can't get any. +You need a gas mask. +Aye. +He suffers from what you've got, you know in Doncaster infirmary again with oxygen and he always carries one of them things, you know, +Aye. +but he's been in again. +You want one of them and you want to use it just when you've got to use it. +Don't use, don't make a habit on it. +I used to, I used to be like that you know terrible. +I've an idea what they're idea what they're going through. +There's a fellow he was a deputy at and he, and he died of that. +Are you on tablets for Angina. +Yeah. +Aye. +I'm on tablets, yeah, yeah. +When you can't breathe right, that's putting a strain on it, on your +Our mother-in-law +Get a bit of pain +You want to get some of them you give two or three squirts +I ain't been to no doctor's, well I'm lying I had to go again, I had to like because I've been getting these here bloody , I must've had them ten or fifteen year or more and, cos I'm on these here tablets now for the old stomach like, and that like. +come and see me before you get any more tablets. +I've had two or three of them buggers but I think I'd better go this time as I can't get no more. +Is that why you drink brown ale? +Aye, I'm gonna drink bloody brown ale, yeah oh aye, oh I couldn't drink that bugger. +I couldn't at one time. +Although since I've been on these tablets I can eat +A lot of acid in them +onion, owt like and apple pie owt like, I never had none for living memory? +I used to drink mild once, that Warwick was marvellous years ago. +It used to be best, it used to be best bloody ale, weren't it? +It were +Mild. +Warwick, years ago. +Mild and bitter. +I was thinking it was +What? +Bloody mild! +Mild and bitter +you'd never mix that you'd be, you'd be sick first! +I was usually sick and all like, well that was your stomach. +I'd put on me +Not us, Doug! +bog there then! +It was only last week were my birthday, Charlie, last Friday. +I know, I, I had that promise on. +Oh ho! +take her to the club +Bye!bloody filthy!. +Bye! +beard? +Aye, you know, er, you know, er if I go through there I feel bloody filthy I do! +if you're on a ship but that's different. +Oh aye, aye, aye, aye, aye, +You know, it's bloody rocking about and you're on a ship and +Yeah. +Well I should say sea, sea air an all +I've, I've got to get a shave every day +I have an all +I am, it's cos I've been in the drinking. +Aye. +I had in last night. +In where? +Ah +well he must've wanted to +I said to her, I asked her cos she went down. +Aye. +She thought she'd bailed him out but she hadn't and er she said she went down she said aye like, you know, +Soon after we left? +Yeah. +Well Julie's man's in there now. +You what, love? +You with Julie's husband. +Oh +Been fighting, falling out +I always said can you go back? +Yeah. +I did, I always said he would go back in time. +I've still got same razor +Lathered up, started to shave when I come to clean it there weren't a bloody blade in the bastards had pinched it. +Pinched bloody razor blade? +You know old +Aye, aye aye. +Jimmy used to be a pal of mine, used to go in there regular and he'd got one of these new electric razors +Aye. +and he's going like this he says they're no bloody good these. +I says you haven't +and he er and he had all his bloody civvies pinched. +He says, he says I went, he says I had to go out there stuck in me bloody army stuff. +He said I went up to the pub he says, here's this bloody mate of mine playing piano, he says he's got all my gear on! +Aye. +pinching it. +I was home on leave one weekend and er I went up to er Scarborough a fellow a car, it weren't my car I was home on leave. +And I took wife with me and there was er old fellow I took him and all. +So we're going to Scarborough in this big yank's car and the fellow said if we don't, if want it I'll give you a fiver, for petrol like and that it was quite a bit of money then. +So, got there, didn't want bloody car. +Coming back and a hell of a storm, coming onto York, York road, Flax, Flaxton +Aye, yes. +road it were, always remember and all lights went out so we pulled into this the guest house but couldn't get in and next door was a pub so cos an Army camp near some soldiers come in and says in morning I says aye,he said what time are you going, I said +Hey, love, there's a bob down here! +half-past six or seven o'clock +I reckon there's a shilling down there, I don't know! +So when I got up in the morning this bloody landlord was here, full side of beef, oh, I said, I don't want that bugger going home in that and getting stopped Full side of beef! +I, I daren't have it. +Bloody full side, half of +Well how much was that gonna cost you? +Oh it wouldn't have cost nothing, it would cost me something if I got caught in them days bloody ration. +Pick it up then, Les, she's not gonna pick it up. +Can't hear. +No. +Going to the loo. +Your next door neighbour were in last night. +Yes, er Charlie said so. +Thought he might come tonight. +I'll have to go to the loo. +there Charlie. +What? +just leave it there cos I'm going to the loo. +No! +It's only battery. +No swearing! +I don't bloody gimmick! +Let's get on about +Whistle Charlie. +Whistle, I can't bloody whistle now! +Can't even hear now, Charlie, can you? +I can't, I bloody can't! +Be bloody careful cos you don't know what the hell's going on this bloody,this bloody wheel's still going round, Doug. +used to have them in the pub and then to play it back and people didn't realise it was there voice you know. +Didn't realise it was there voice. +Oh dear. +There's many a time wished I'd had one of them buggers when I've gone to these meetings, union meetings and that. +Aye, aye. +That's right, yeah. +I'll tell you what two years since I were working at collieries. +he said be very careful what you say have you down in evidence then. +Yeah, yeah. +Some bugger's, a young got away with that money, hadn't? +Eh? +He's been crafty. +Wh wh what bloody police doing? +Well he's +Well why didn't they get a mile away from where they put that money they could've, they could've been planned it away, a mile away all +There were a thousand men out, Charlie! +Eh? +There was a thousand men on that! +Ah, ere get on this bugger and +Ah, but he went up a railway track, didn't he? +Yeah, but if they'd have, if they'd have said look, we're onto erm a job now which would've been a big job and it looks like it finishing up in Yorkshire, finishing up in Lancashire, be ready if we give a call out. +Yeah. +You know, right you, we're in Yorkshire. +surround them +Well that's what I said why didn't they surround it a mile away. +They didn't want to surround him just there and then where he could see them. +Get, get well away and he, and he had to go back +But he's, he's had all the answers, hasn't he, he's +He's known the area. +Yeah. +Eh? +He must know the area. +Got all the answers. +Oh, aye! +Well he got up that railway track, I mean, bloody hell, they might've thought well that's one way he's gonna go. +It's only a mile away where that er red bloody pickle thing was. +Aye it is, it is, yeah, yeah. +I reckon somebody who knew the area very well. +Yeah, he does. +Nice big plan that +Lassies today, they're getting them,th they're asking them to do too much. +I mean going round selling stuff and that sort of thing, they're asking them, they're doing a man's job +They shouldn't around by themselves. +No, they shouldn't. +They were warned when that Susan Lamplaugh or whatever +Ah, there was, there was +went missing. +was there? +No. +No. +They were warned then not to let the woman go theirselves. +Yeah. +Bloody ridiculous. +Yeah. +Same as that er, what do they call him, Panther, wasn't he +Aye weren't he? +Mm. +Hear no more about him, do you? +He got, what, were it five, five life sentences? +Summat like that +But why +int it? +Yeah. +Why +Why look at that bloody Sutcliffe how many did he do? +More than thirteen, him. +Aye, thirteen, weren't it that bugger. +Is that Sutcliffe? +Aye, thirteen. +he gets sixty-three years, you know, I mean what's the use of keeping a bugger like that for sixty-three years, it's bloody ridiculous, innit? +Oh, bloody hell! +I mean some of those old age pensioners bloody +Oh, Muirlins, that's Muirlins, Muirlins, Lindorm's er different. +Well Bernie oh maybe twelve months, maybe six months, I don't know, and er he, he made that big football pitch +I know, you told me, aye +for them and he said there ain't a bugger in England that's good! +He said we daren't do dead level with spirit level, bloody turf! +I don't know how much turf they to put on this here for a pris for a prisoner to kick a ruddy football on. +You know it's not right this +Well it's, I mean it's letting them know what's going off at other prisons. +There's half, half these people come out of jail and they, and they've come out and they're back in! +Yeah. +Cos they know the +Yeah. +Yeah. +Get grub for nothing. +Three square meals a day, ain't there? +That jury lad that come here, +well that jury lad that come here telling us, he said, do you know, they've a better bloody than what I had! +Their own room, television, bed the bloody lot he said. +They're in for punishment not nourishment. +What they should've done, instead of having all them machines on that moors they should've had damn bugger stripped to waist digging it out. +Yeah, yeah, yeah, they should like they do in America, give them some work. +That's it and let them, let them get on with it in the middle of bloody summer with a pint of water and say, look, that pint of water has to last you the day. +Yeah. +Their bloody tongues they'd have been, they'd have been as thick as these tables by end of day. +They would. +Oh yeah, aye. +Oh aye, yeah. +Now he's gonna get long sentence or summat +He's gonna get a longer sentence? +Aye, he's gonna get a longer sentence +But I like to wear a little jewellery. +Yes and the children like to see it. +I mean a little elephant brooch or something. +Have you still got that other elephant belt that tan one? +Cream one, you mean? +Cream one, yes. +Happy with it all? +I don't know but to be truthful I am not hundred percent sold on any of it. +Oh I'm sorry about that. +Because I like them all. +That's correct. +May I look at that please? +With the pads in I feel square on the top. +If I could take them out. +Just a moment, may I? +They don't look harsh. +To me they are too wide. +Alright to me they don't look harsh. +You know they don't sort of poke up in the air like shoulders sometimes do. +Was it exciting in the shop today? +I had a chip incidentally fallen off your plate. +They're rather good weren't they? +Yeah they were nice. +Mm What you going to do with Sam tonight? +What do you expect to happen in the Tigers tonight? +Nothing. +Ah! +What you and Sam thought you were going to be doing. +Some of his friends coming as well. +Are they? +Supposed to have a chat you know. +Yes. +I haven't seen any of them for ages. +I haven't even seen Bret since I was a bit drunk +Well don't get too drunk tonight please. +All right +Whose eighteenth birthday is this? +Debbie's? +So you still haven't sent the invitations out eh? +don't worry about it. +Take them with you, won't you? +Yes. +Has Mum told you that we're going out for a Chinese? +Mmm. +To 's. +Fancy coming? +Bring me back some prawn balls. +You don't get prawn balls in 's my dear +What? +You do not get prawn balls in 's. +You get much superior Good heavens! +I thought it was prawn +What's that? +Who? +Good. +Right we shall be off very shortly. +Alright. +Sorry darling +Its all right +she's been trying to get something for the mother of the bride. +What a gift? +No +Oh! +I see yes yes and she is the mother of the bride. +I take your point. +Your blue one. +My blue one? +No I won't wear my blue one, it's +Dad your colour combination is amazing. +Thank you I appreciate that. +It's alright. +We don't mind if you can't match your colours properly, but you +When does this finish? +Tonight. +I might carry on a bit tomorrow. +Depending on how many few tapes whatever I've done. +How many +I don't think they've said that. +They've given me twenty or twenty four +twenty tapes. +I've done just over fifty percent of them so far. +No. +I've done about fifty percent I think. +I've just put in tape ten so we're nearly half way there. +There's no obligation to fill all the tapes. +No and anyway it depends where you are dinner party talking to you. +It will be difficult +Yes. +It's very strange approaching Petswood from this side isn't it? +You either turn left to go to one side of Petswood or right to go to the other side of Petswood. +It's a the railway provides quite a split. +It's a full car in front. +Mmm. +Teenagers probably. +Looking awfully big being rather young. +Nice green view. +Good. +I asked Suzannah what prompted her to go up to town tonight. +But she hasn't gone up there for ages. +She's very low. +She was going to Spain for a holiday she and her friend Tracy +Erm +and Tracy has cried off. +Oh dear! +So she's had summer holiday plans fallen through. +She's feeling a bit +David is looking for somewhere to put his croquet club. +What do you mean by that? +Well he's got a croquet club without a ground. +Oh you mean a club? +A number of people not a club stick? +It's not called like a golf club that you hit the ball with? +Ah! +Correct. +He's looking for ground land. +Not looking much of a hurry +What's that thing out there hydrants or something? +On which to play croquet? +Yes. +He occasionally he gets by the club. +Uncomfortable next to the Tigers. +Excuse me. +Erm. +Yes he was he is the Secretary of Eden Park Croquet Club which was an offshoot of Eden Park Cricket Club. +Where is Eden Park? +It's between Beckenham and Croydon. +And +They don't have anywhere to play? +at the moment they don't have anywhere to play. +What do you need for a croquet club? +Well you need ideally some space for about four or five tennis courts to run +Quite a lot +Well that would run you three lawns +How big is a lawn? +which would be ideal. +As big as a tennis court? +I believe it's twenty four by sixteen ideally. +Is that bigger than a tennis court? +It's about the size of a double tennis court apparently. +Double tennis court? +Mhm. +Gosh! +With the surrounds. +Presumably you can't use it for anything else because it needs to be very smooth and perfect. +Is there cold air blowing in this car? +It's hot air blowing in. +I know any air but something's blowing. +You can erm you can't use it for anything else but croquet? +No. +But then it's not a very big area. +You know as you can't use a tennis court for anything else or bowling green for anything else. +No. +But it does sound quite a big area to me if you haven't got the land in the first place. +It would mean somebody's got to give up something. +You could fit it on a bowling green. +But then who wants to give up a bowling green? +Well I'm talking of space. +The area you need. +You've got the area. +That's fine but you haven't got any land at all. +Mm. +It's quite a lot of land to find. +Absolutely true. +It's not like somebody's back garden. +Yep. +So where were they playing today? +They went to Dulwich. +Is there a croquet club there? +Yes. +Burbidge Road. +Which is where Carlos used to live. +How many croquet clubs are there around here? +Very few. +Sydenham is possible. +ran an evening class affair. +Not one in Bromley? +No. +There's nothing in Bromley. +Apparently the Mayor last year or the Mayoress er was rather keen and organized a match between the Dulwich Club and her team nominally which turned out to be made up of masters from Dulwich College . +Well apparently they have a lawn and they play it. +Well yes people who play. +Oh you need people who know the game anyway. +Then +Oh no. +You need to know how to play. +Oh indeed you do. +Mighty complicated it is too. +Well I was reading that article in the Sunday Times with you and the chap who's the champion said he liked it because it's like chess and bridge. +Mm. +Mm. +A game of strategy. +Or I mean David was saying you can do this you can do that you can do the other you can do this. +I I my mind was absolutely blown by the end. +It it was almost impossible to erm +If you were +latch on to everything. +starting out out. +Doing it from scratch. +If somebody was used to teaching croquet they wouldn't tell you everything all at once. +And you can gradually build up. +Well he was coaching me and he was very good. +Oh good. +Very good. +I can understand why he has been invited to coach. +Very good. +In Petts Wood I found a little space like that to park in. +There was a great queue behind and I went in absolutely perfectly. +Right into the space and I was pleased with myself. +You know how +Good. +I know. +I haven't done it easily but I've done it and I'm pleased. +I'm not clever as you like you are. +Well done! +I wasn't +Yes you have to do that I believe these days too. +I can't read Chinese +I don't think it said Chinese on there dear. +Good evening sir. +Good evening ma'am. +For two. +Yes, I rang on the telephone yesterday. +Your name sir? +You booked for two, yes? +I booked indeed yes. +How about this one? +Will be okay? +Thank you. +The one over here? +Are you going to sit here? +If this is the one you meant. +This one, or this one I think this one is nice. +This is fine. +Yes this is just fine. +Thank you very much indeed yes. +Alright? +Yes thank you. +What do you fancy drinking? +I'm for a lager I think a lager +Yes yes I agree. +I prefer it. +Lemon chicken +Lemon chicken stuffed mushrooms. +Singapore noodles we enjoyed. +Yes I'm sure they were Singapore noodles. +We'll have noodles not rice certainly. +Where are these stuffed mushrooms? +I can't see them. +Can't remember what they were stuffed with can you? +And bean bean sprouts we had too. +and stuffed mushrooms +Oh yes. +Don't let's have bean sprouts. +Alright we won't have bean sprouts. +How about we have Chinese mushrooms with bamboo shoots? +Seasonal Chinese vegetable with prawns. +How about that? +prawns with stuffed mushrooms. +Would you like something first? +Not first but what will you'll have a lager? +I'll have a lager. +May we have two lagers please? +So we shall have lemon chicken, stuffed mushrooms, we had something else didn't we last time? +We may have had bean sprouts with noodles. +We had bean sprouts last time yes. +Yes but I don't like bean sprouts. +Right. +But you enjoyed the noodles. +Yes. +But there was something else that we had. +What we had something more than just the bean sprouts? +We had we certainly had lemon chicken stuffed mushrooms, +And noodles. +and noodles. +We had something like bean sprouts last time +Yes I think we did but we also had something else. +Yes we did. +What would you like to have start with? +What do you want? +Wan Ton soup. +What with vegetables, I suppose. +Oh we won't have either of them then. +Have some Wan Ton soup . +What is Wan Ton soup? +All sorts of bits in it. +What do you mean by that? +Or do you fancy I can't remember. +It's a long long time since I had it. +We'd have mixed appetites if you'd given it any thought. +How about having +Are we thinking about how romantic +Or why not a Dim Sum? +Which is a classic Chinese. +But we've never had that here. +You had that let's start with Dim Sum. +Now over here we are short of one +Or have some vegetables. +Alright. +Alright. +No. +I was thinking of the seasons Chinese vegetables were born. +They were not born in the mushrooms. +Mushrooms right. +Right. +We weren't going to put mushrooms with prawns. +Yes we are. +I think we are. +We'll both have Dim Sum, lemon chicken erm Chinese vegetables with prawns. +Stuffed mushrooms. +And some noodles. +Special noodles? +Singapore noodles. +What is the difference between Singapore noodles and special noodles? +Singapore noodles have hot spices. +But the others +Is not? +Special noodles are not so spicy? +No. +We'll have special noodles. +I see this restaurant allows smoking. +What sorry? +This restaurant allows smoking. +Restaurants local restaurants can't afford not to dear. +I think if you're talking about a very exclusive one up in town they might well say no smoking. +Oh we have to share a finger bowl. +isn't it? +Golly it'd be interesting to know what they'd make of this tape for the next couple of hours. +Yes indeed. +Was it at work +Where it works? +David find it being there? +No. +No he said he forgot about it quite quickly. +Are you going to play it back or listen to it? +I beg your pardon? +Are you going to play it back or listen to it? +Which one? +The tapes. +All of them? +I haven't got a player for two full days in which to do it. +No. +I must tape number ten no it takes an hour and a half on tape number ten. +That's fifteen hours. +Play it at work. +Well you can if you'd like to but I'm not going to. +I remember +Thank you. +May we have the bill? +They're busy little bees in here +The restaurant's nice. +It is indeed. +When you've had a day in the open air you have a sort of +Glow. +glow. +it really was chilly by the time I +Well I mean you can relax on that score because you had a very good half hour run with me. +She wasn't in frantic form but she was zipping hither and dither. +She insisted on coming +Galloped around the outside. +I was absolutely steaming by the time I got back to the car. +It was very hot. +And the very erm she was very anxious to come with me when I went out into the park. +To get me into the car so I let her come. +Good. +To get the what? +Oh yes. +And she had to come in the car while I +There's a take away here. +a bag for somebody. +A doggy bag. +No. +A great big carrier bag you can't see it it's just outside. +It all seems rather a shame really you know to do a take away . +I mean that rather a nice Chinese restaurant in the high street does take away. +We had one last week. +but if you're going to pay a lot of money for your take away +I wonder if they charge the same prices for their take away as for sitting at the table. +I think they really must. +My mother +I know I know in the past I have er ten percent or something. +But I may be going back far too long for the evening. +Well you'd think they could because you are not paying for the service are you? +That's right. +Yes I think I could become really absorbed in croquet. +I don't know if I'd become good at it but I think +Why not? +but I think it'd be a game that one could become absorbed in. +It's not physically demanding other than in stamina concentration terms. +It's hardly physically demanding is it? +And the course that David went on before he was asked to coach on it was for advanced people anyway . +And he said ah er I misunderstood this and er and I said well you know when is it? +Who knows may be I could baah aah aah. +And he said, er er. +Just possible that you standard because he obviously seemed to think that I was that I had some great possible qualities but +But? +Well I would I, he would say you know you know you don't croquet that and it's a short bom bom and it's +It's the first time you've done it. +Oh!what does he mean by that? +And so on and so forth. +But he must be quite good unusual to start by playing a whole game? +Well I mean he showed me how er er he showed me how the mallet is operated. +There's no standard grip you +Alright? +I have mine. +Thank you. +I notice that you do takeaways here? +Yes we do. +Do you charge the same prices as in the restaurant? +Oh no. +It's cheaper than the restaurant. +Yes yes +Ah! +I'm I'm pleased to hear that. +That's interesting we were +One moment. +I give you our menu you know. +Yes thank you. +I would be interested. +except V A T. +Yes. +You can charge more +Well they're not receiving excuse me the service and the pleasure of the table and the atmosphere. +You see when you want to get home I charge more. +The people why they want here they can have cheaper right here. +Yes. +Yes. +Yes. +I give you one menu, okay? +Thank you. +And it always smells good here doesn't it? +It always smells super. +Who is the tall thin chap sitting next to Diane? +I don't know darling. +Probably their family or something I don't know. +Do you remember being here with ? +Yes I do. +We sat there. +Ham and Eve +Ham and Eve! +And they enjoyed it didn't they? +Yes. +Unfortunately you chose the ginger beetle, the toffee beetle or something of the sort it had a gingery look to it. +Oh is that what it's called? +Yes. +It was very feathery. +Not gingery feathery. +Did you notice in the front of the back so you must remember to take back. +Somebody has started a boat on the river. +The article on the front page. +I haven't seen it no. +The cook from the Spread Eagle. +Oh yeah. +Chef who is no longer there? +Chefette yes? +He has acquired a boat. +or somewhere. +Yes. +Yes. +Yes. +Which he uses for parties rather than as a restaurant. +And you can hire it out. +Somebody had a super birthday party for their husband. +And the cheapest menu was thirteen pounds. +Yes. +Based on O'Hagen sausage. +Yes. +Yes. +Yes I thought that was rather good. +Sounded rather fun. +Yes it did. +Quite pricey actually +Yes well it was pricey. +But then you're paying for the use of the boat as well aren't you? +Yes but then when I came here with you. +The meal was thirteen pounds ten +Right. +plus the wine. +But that was, a year ago two years ago. +A year and half ago anyway. +Nearly two years ago. +Erm she said six months ahead. +Oh really? +She said when you came and I rang to confirm it all she said you're very lucky because he agreed thirteen pounds and we don't do it for under fifteen pounds now. +Really? +And I said oh dear! +I hope you're not going to be feeling mean about it you know because +Yes. +because they weren't, were they? +No. +No. +No they were not. +They were not they were honest. +They were honest and straightforward and jolly good stuff. +It was really thanks to Linda and Graham because I never would have done it otherwise. +No. +You learn about these things in different ways don't you? it's all very +I think Linda and Graham were the only people there who had been before have any other common +Quite probably. +The only local people in Essex probably. +Is that our Dim Sum. +Goody goody. +Yes please. +Thank you. +Thank you. +What's inside that? +Little dumplings. +Little dumplings such as you've never come across other than in a Chinese Restaurant. +Her birthday's the fourteenth. +Do you know which day of the week that is? +I know the first is a Monday. +So the fifteenth will be a Monday. +So the fourteenth will be a Sunday. +How long have you been working on that? +Saturday. +She finishes in August did you say? +Right. +Thank you. +Thank you. +When do you finish school? +Twelfth is my last day of . +Good. +Thank you. +Very tasty. +Can't, fifteenth is a Monday. +The Wednesday the tenth. +Erm this is the first of the month +My birthday's on Monday obviously at this rate. +There's a one eight fifteen on Mondays which means that Wednesday the ten +I must finish on the tenth +Wednesday. +Wednesday. +I should need to go in on the eleventh to clear up I expect. +Yes. +But I could just about fit in going. +I mean I should be finished in time for that weekend. +Yes good. +We can go down and come back specifically on the Monday . +No no. +There's only Snoopy but she'd have finished college by then. +Yes. +Only if she gets her thing and finishes. +That Monday will be okay. +For presentations +That's the Monday before you finish? +Will you be under huge pressures or will you be winding down a bit by then? +Well hopefully I'll be winding down. +You'll probably be rehearsing a part for a silly end of year staff entertainment or something. +I haven't heard anything about that. +I don't think we do that in the summer term. +Oh really. +That's what you had in mind wasn't it? +No that's what you suggested. +Or what had you in mind? +Nothing +No. +Certainly don't want your pretty rotten +Mm. +Sure. +Mm. +Can you smell that? +Whatever it is. +Wonderful! +Slightly slightly burned. +Yes but caramelly burned, isn't it? +Quality burned. +Do you think Christine and Colin would enjoy a meal here? +Sure. +stuffed mushrooms. +Lovely. +Thank you. +Splendid. +It's probably what smelled. +Sizzling and sizzling. +Yes. +Wonderful. +When he comes from erm +Yes? +I'd like a glass of water. +Good. +There's no hurry. +Madam! +Madam! +May we have two glasses of water please? +Thank you. +Thank you. +Is that the mixed vegetables and stuff? +special noodles or Chinese vegetables. +No we had mushrooms and noodles. +Didn't we ask for mushrooms and noodles before? +Can't remember. +Doesn't look like that to me. +dreadful. +Well we didn't ask for that. +mushrooms and . +Oh no you said mixed Chinese vegetables in beef I don't know +Oh I'm sorry I've got beef. +anyway. +Tell me what we've got here will you? +Okay yes sir. +Stuffed mushrooms. +Yes. +Special noodles. +Ah! +Special noodles. +Special noodles. +Yes +Lemon chicken and +Lovely! +Thank you. +Thank you. +We didn't recognise that. +It's very special. +Very special. +It not noodles . +Thank you very much. +Thank you. +Right. +Careful the spoons on the plates are hot. +More sauce? +Very special. +Prawns in it and all sorts. +I don't think it is the same ones we had the last time. +I think we probably did have Singapore noodles last time. +Super! +Thank you. +your noodles. +I think for the moment I'll just enjoy these two dishes if that's okay. +Mm. +I'm glad you don't use chopsticks either. +I don't suppose we'll need to, fiddle around dear. +So difficult to pick up. +Mm. +Absolutely. +We got here in the nick of time or we would have had the rotten table otherwise. +Mm. +It's a bit nearer nine now. +Mm. +Where did those prawns come from? +From that dish or from that dish? +The noodle dish. +Well. +Well. +Special noodles have everything. +Yes lovely. +You didn't get in any of vegetables. +No. +Well they're very similar looking dishes aren't they? +Lovely crunchy vegetables aren't they? +Super. +Alright? +Lovely. +Thank you. +Thank you very much. +Did you ever hear what the Palmer children girls had for for their twenty first birthday celebration? +Were they not the ones who had the fancy dress party the Victorian dress party at the hotel? +It wasn't Victorian is was the twentieth +Right. +Am I right though? +Yes. +That's right. +I thought that was a lovely idea. +Yes. +Absolutely super. +I'm awfully sorry we weren't involved. +We don't really know them well enough do we? +That's right. +I can't say +Towering temples and things. +Look at the beast they've got over there on that table. +Do you see him? +With his ears? +Such a +Or something like that. +No I don't think so. +I think it's a dish you choose. +Where's Snoopy getting the money from to go to the Tiger's Head tonight? +credit cards in use. +She can go where she likes. +I only gave her fifteen. +So I said I was tired of waiting for the money for my things and she can collect it from the students and have it when it came. +Well done. +That was a fiver was it? +Yes. +Presumably they've all got their films. +So they should jolly well be stumping up. +If she's not bothered to collect them +Yep yep suffer. +Yep. +No no don't push any more on me! +Sorry. +Thank you. +Hang on hang on. +It's alright. +Move it up to the edge of your tray. +Oh bad luck. +Do you want some more chicken? +Thank you. +Yes. +I was holding it in such an awkward way that fingers eventually protested. +What did you get to put in the middle of the erm lobelia in that other pot? +Erm geraniums and er petunias, busy lizzy. +Okay? +Ya. +Where did you get them in the end? +All different places. +Oh right. +Were they better value than previously or +Well +similar or what? +Thomsons' geraniums on the whole were very good value. +One twenty five one ninety. +Goodness! +Extraordinary! +There were some cheaper geraniums around but they were the trailing kind. +To have in hanging baskets. +They're having it earlier this afternoon +Oh yes. +If your marriage is consummated before never consummated after the marriage service is that an annulment? +Oddly I would have thought. +It's false. +Really? +quickly. +Because presumably what you do before the marriage,of marriage. +It wasn't mm. +Yes. +Well. +Interesting idea. +One side said yes the other side says no. +Ha? +That's what they said. +Yeah. +I heard somewhere that John's living in now. +He is a long way away. +Who told you that? +I've no idea. +Absolutely no idea. +But he was a sailing man. +I always might have known that. +Christine? +I've no idea. +Probably not. +Probably not. +You did say in her that you heard from Sally I didn't get my usual Christmas letter. +I told her Sally hadn't +Good. +Really there's nothing to stop me from giving Sally a ring is there this week end? +Hopefully it's not terribly expensive. +Do you think the world will ever get get the balance right feeding the starving? +No never. +One apple and one banana, toffee apple if you've got no banana. +One of each please +Yes. +Yes. +You want coffee afterwards? +Yes please. +Two coffees +Strange little creature. +Well it's always been an awful lot worse than it is now. +Why is it +No it is communication that tells us that it is so awful now. +I don't think it's any worse now, it's just that we've written no about it. +Well, I don't know if that's true or not. +But it's nonsense flying in food to Ethiopia Bangladesh and all the rest of it +Isn't it better to do nothing? +Let them die. +Why why is that better? +Because that is the way of the world, they're living in very very marginal areas that do not sustain life. +You will never ever stop sending food to areas like that. +They're areas that people should not be living. +Is that a bad thing? +I mean if if presumably people go on being born there surely we should leave them. +It doesn't really matter to human beings as long as they have nourishment. +If you worked in this country and for some reason and were starving you wouldn't care if they fed you. +The individual of course wants feeding needs feeding but should all resources of this area that area be rife to that particular point, every two to three years? +Well why should they not? +Because that's what happened to Bangladesh. +Why should they not? +Because they don't have any genuine effect. +It happens over and over and over again. +Nobody ever learns anything +Maybe we should be when your budget for all nations have plenty of food and plenty of resources should automatically make this sort of money and food available to nations without it. +Maybe that's the answer. +Maybe it is. +Maybe it should be an emergency aid those that have given and those that have not. +I mean if that's the only way that people were kept in reasonable health. +the money comes from +I don't think we are talking about kept in reasonable health dear I think it is a question of living in an environment which does not genuinely support over any sensible period of time normal human life. +Have you order? +We have thank you yes. +Have you order coffee as well? +As well. +Yes. +You like coffee now or later? +Later please. +You want coffee now? +No later later. +Yes they've always been like that and they always will be like that. +They're the same, let them die. +That's not normal. +Because there'll just be more people. +Otherwise they would have died out long ago. +Well I mean may be there's there's there's an argument on teaching contraception measures. +I'm sure there is as well. +That never the full answer because pushing people into that is one thing they should have. +Yes. +I mean six to one is you know that. +Sure. +People with no money and no home always seem to end up having children. +Whereas if you and I didn't have a roof over our head +Mm +I mean the last thing we'd think about is excluding children. +But they do. +Yes. +How right you are. +It would be a good idea if you do teach them the ways of contraception available it's never going to stop people having babies. +I mean in China they families and what have they got? +They've not denied the situation at all have they? +No. +No. +Or families where they kill a child +for being the wrong sex. +Yes. +Only children growing up in the lap of luxury +Yes. +And mothers are supposed to sink all their hopes ambitions in the one child. +Watching their education. +Mm. +Strange thing they'll have two and three. +They're a nation of super brats. +Whereas mothers at home aren't their usual selves because they've their children to look after. +I mean but interesting but not the ideal answer. +Does that mean that Anna has actually slept in that too? +She had a good long night with no disturbance. +Good. +I noticed on your card she called him Daniel David and then behold he's going to be just Daniel. +Well David is his second name. +I know +what his second name was. +Oh really. +Lena is Lena Rachael. +Ha? +Real Toffee isn't it? +Mm. +By Gosh! +Hot stuff. +Presumably they're awfully +Yes. +Hubbling bubbling oil. +Whenever we come here we see somebody we know don't we? +Do we? +Mm. +Who did we see the last time we were here? +We saw Gill ? +Did we? +Who's she? +She used to live in Close. +Their younger daughter was the same age as Suzannah and went to and went to the same national school. +Oh really? +Their elder daughter was in my guides. +They went to Bromley High. +Catherine was actually a year lower than Suzannah. +They moved into Petts Wood into Birchwood Avenue. +Then her husband left her. +Oh gosh! +They were divorced. +We saw her here. +is still working in Sainsbury's. +Does she? +Saturday job. +She works in the bakery. +Oh. +As opposed to an accountant. +Where did she do her study or work or whatever? +I think she did it in Orpington Tech. +Aha. +I bet Lynda's in for a lark for the next year. +She's round the corner when Raymond . +And then she'll come home some days and discover the place chockablock with students or three birds in bed with him or something. +That's unlikely. +I agree they are +Sorry? +school again already. +Erm +Why did you go on a choir outing? +There are caves which seem to We went into the caverns and erm saw the petrified caves where they, the water drip on objects and however many years they build up a stone coating. +Do they have stalagmites? +And stalactites. +What are they called where they meet in the middle? +Columns I suppose or pillars. +Don't know. +I'd be intrigued to know what those other two couples who were not informed about the cancelled christening feels. +Yes +Or not unless they join in wholeheartedly with the other lot. +Perhaps they turned up outside, looked in and saw nobody they knew and went away again. +I can ask Mary when I see +Mhm. +Has it been said that they hope to repeat the experience or ? +I think they're more concerned that the baby has an operation now. +What what is the situation there? +Some time in June. +I expect they are waiting to called. +You like some more coffee? +Yes please. +The young lady is talking as if she's a member of the family because she's paying so much over there. +The boy sitting next to her +Saying little. +Oh really? +Because he looks so like . +They're celebrating +Is she John's daughter or the other guy's? +I don't know for sure really. +I think he must be because of sounds like it. +The mother the blond or the midway? +I only saw Robin +Did you? +Mm. +I er +Sorry? +It's fine. +He said his children are busy at school. +Ella's about to do work experience. +Residential primary school +Sounds if the girl plans to become a teacher. +work experience if you remember. +Didn't know what hit him did he? +No I don't think he's planning to become a teacher. +He certainly had himself a good varied he and his pal a good varied work experience, didn't he? +What in our school? +Mhm. +and tennis coaching and don't know what else he did do. +things on the wall on the ceiling for . +down off the table. +He must have been shattered. +All I'm supposed to be his friends cut up all morning And Maureen asked him to cut them out I E to go round the edge. +Yes. +Then he cut out cut them all up +Fatty like? +Maureen +Good grief! +She put them all back together again? +Yes. +One doesn't want to overwhelm her +Sure. +not really never see her except when she's with school +Well you did speak to her again and make the suggestion. +I did. +More coffee? +Yes please I think I will ask her or suggest we meet or something. +Yeah, by all means by all means. +I just wonder if she and Cathy might like to come because she did say to me, how is Cathy and I said she was +She knows about Cathy's problem? +Yes , she so do you think Cathy would mind if I rang her and I said no I'm sure she wouldn't. +At the end she left I said do ring Cathy if you feel like it because I'm sure she won't mind well it would be nice for us to find out who's been through the same thing recently. +Mm. +My grandmoth granny used to have these during the war. +Did she really? +I wonder where she got them from. +Oh they were ho hoarded. +Were they? +She had them in a big glass jar and if you were very good and special occasions. +Good. +Only hers were all colours. +These usually come in bigger chunks than that. +Well they've got that girl over there 's got soup. +What kind of soup has she got? +It's got dumplings in it. +That might be won ton soup. +With dumplings in? +I didn't see that. +Ah. +It looks as if over there stuck on the wall they've got a rechargeable for hoover for taking crumbs off the tables. +Well as it's used in other muckier places I tend not to use it over cleaning table white cloths aah +I'm very well fed. +I'm very well fed too, I think I shall ask them for the bill +Yes I did. +to clobber in Black Heath village I notice it didn't say that the premises are now called the age centre. +No today you see a lot of people wearing large earrings don't you? +Yes. +Is that why you wear such small ones? +As so claims that was a rather naff comment actually, I can't imagine that, well I can imagine other people wearing big earrings because they're super confident. +Then you obviously had a you did say such a lot of in the Radio Times somewhere I was reading today about er colours you wear. +Oh yes. +And how people who wear red go in in business situations go in to assert power you know I mean +You do mean women in red suits presumably not men in red ties! +No, men in red ties as well. +Oh really? +Yes When I put on red one day, I mean I don't think I have anything in red do I, but when I put on my clothes in the morning +Would you like some more coffee? +No thank yo would you like some more coffee? +No thank you. +Could we have the bill please? +Yes. +Erm I'm influenced by all kinds of things but I'm sure I'm not influenced by wishing for certain power or not. +You don't need to. +No, but I mean there are other such reasons I mean there may be initially choosing clothes or something like that, but when I put them on in the morning I usually put them on to suit the weather and what's clean and what I've got tights to match. +Yes. +Which shoes are comfortable today. +Mhm. +Or clean today. +Yes. +Whether I've got painting on them. +Yes. +Erm what I wore yesterday and the day before and also practical things like that. +Yep. +I think you need a lot of room for +Very true. +Whether its going to influence me or not +Does that say forty pounds? +Thirty nine pounds seventy it says. +Actually that was very good I enjoyed it all. +Yes. +I don't mind, bills like that when it's all so nice. +No, quite. +I wonder if we were to look down our wedding invitation list, nearly twenty five years ago we could have a gathering when we're fifty five of all the people who were at our wedding if they're around today. +Yeah. +There would have to be some people w we wouldn't invite as well as the people who are no longer here. +Yeah. +I mean we'd invite Helen and some friends like, I don't know . +Yes, the old folk. +Mrs , Hilda and people like that but erm +Do you still have the list? +Yes it's there +Thank you sir. +along with mm a list of all the wedding people who received day +Mm historical references aye. +and cards, and telegrams. +Wonderful, where do you keep them? +In a box on top of the shelf. +Most impressive! +We'll have to get them out and have a look at them. +Mm +washing. +Yes, when I spoke to Jack I said how's progress on fixing it? +And he said it wa I reckon if they don't fix this weekend it's going to be next year, early next year. +Early next year would be +I made no comment. +Yes, so there's nothing we can say we're not we don't want want to make them feel awkward about it I mean they have planned what they can plan. +No good making them feel awkward, they just do what they're going to do and that's it. +Yes quite well that's fair enough isn't it? +They can't consider everybody or they could never make a decision. +Thank you, right So you enjoy your ? +We always do when we come here, thank you. +Yes. +It's always very nice I wish we could come more often. +Yeah well maybe you're missing the Chinese food. +That's right. +Yeah thank you. +Many thanks. +Bye. +Bye. +A lovely treat, thank you darling. +I enjoyed it glad you did. +You chose very well, I used to get really nervous when I came to Chinese restaurants, I never knew what to choose. +Really? +But gradually over the years you get the hang of it. +Some people get the hang of these things more quickly than I do. +We didn't go often enough dear, that's the other thing. +Right, shall we make tracks? +Yes. +Yes,Po Petts Wood was eh an inbetween the wars, trendy suburban development wasn't it? +Well it's still +Commuter land. +it's still commuter land. +Mm. +It's not unpleasant at all, these I mean +No I'm not saying it's unpleasant I'm saying it was trendy in those days. +Trendy, yeah. +But there is an awful lot of sameyness about it unfortunately. +Well, especially in a long road like this. +Mm. +Some of the other roads have more individual houses in don't they? +Well they have bigger detached houses I'm not sure how individual they actually are. +But even these aren't all the same. +Are they not? +No they are all semi-detached but er there are two or three different styles and they are alternated. +Have you had the accounts from John? +From the office. +No not yet, it was started on Tuesday this week they have the books for ten days or something before they started on them. +How long do they take to do them? +Oh well I've had certain queries already and +so they're working on them? +and the basis, basics would have been by the end of next week but certain, assuming that they are not interrupted and sort of dragged onto something more lucrative the bad news will have been quantified by then. +Well we can't have a bad year presumably it means you don't pay tax. +Mhm that's right. +Which can't be a bad thing. +Sure. +Or are you paying for a year in a in arrears? +Oh you, in in in essence you do but even so it's a you +As long as you're pa not paying in your bad for your good year. +Oh that, oh that happens too. +Is that likely to happen this year then paying for last year? +That's right. +And the year before so you will have to pay tax. +Something like that yes. +Or or for bad year. +That's right yes. +But do you offset it, I mean can you? +You what s normally happens is that the following year when you make profit you say ah but last year I made er you know I made a loss of ten thousand pound set that off against the profit of ten thousand pound I made this year so that tax pay losses can be carried forward there are other more complex ways of doing it too but that's the standard sort of way, I think. +But it's the year that you haven't, but yo the year before that you haven't yet paid for you have to pay for it in the year that it you don't make any profit. +Yes you normally pay for it in the following year. +Yeah, so that's a bit of a disadvantage. +Because yet pulled together the figures for last year. +Sure. +Sure, I I had fork out corporation tax a few months ago for the previous good year. +Yes. +John got a bit shirty about the ten pound or something, he reckoned his wife had didn't he? +to pay his bill, no doubt. +I don't think she'll be very pleased would she? +That's not the point! +She's enjoying herself, we met her at John's house I felt nervous this morning for sleeping home late although in fact I have been awake quite a lot in between, but +Mm +it was only ten to eight and I got up because I thought I was getting late for work and I'd better get moving. +Was she walking in? +No, they went on the bus this morning. +Ah. +She caught the twenty to nine bus. +She might just about made it then because she certainly seemed to be a bit late on the move. +She was alright, I made her something to eat. +Mm, +she said she wanted her jeans ironed and I er pressed them and then when I she came downstairs in her black trousers and +Ah the ramblers must do a roaring trade. +Yes we've never done anything about inviting +I've been trying to get hold of him +Really? +to organize meat for the barbecue. +When is the barbecue, the twentieth? +Something of June +Thirtieth. +A Sunday. +Sunday. +Mm. +Why? +Becau Because I forgot That was the day I was thinking of having a proper lunch party but I won't do it if you're going out. +Try the twenty-third. +No, I haven't I won't have finished my reports then. +Aha. +two weekends away I shall be up my to ears in it mustn't plan anything for that weekend . +Blowing awfully quickly, that's the second out of the sixth that you bought yesterday. +Yes I bought them in Sainsbury's they are Sainsbury's bulbs aren't they? +Philip's bulbs. +I mean that was a new bulb, well that's the second one you've used. +Second one I've used. +No, not yet What's on television? +Well there's only look like two that are anything discussing that film about the lambs whatever it's called with Jodie Foster, the rest didn't look very interesting but you may feel differently. +Yes, a bit forgettable isn't it? +I put my specs outside. +They're in +Oh here they are +That's a very funny business isn't it? +Effective exercise. +Pardon? +This bit about obesity. +How about this No Smoking Please stickers have been sent out to London cabbies but unfortunately they will not arrive before next week. +Mm. +Marvellous skull of a Viking here. +Really, what was that then? +This eight hundred year old skull of a Viking found off the northern coast of Scotland +Oh. +and old other bones and possessions including shield,comb, brooch last weekend it was found. +Mhm. +The two people who found it are expected to receive the value of the brooch but it's a very well preserved skull, I suppose it was all in mud an +I didn't know the Ethiopians had an imperial family, I suppose it was Haile Selassie's relatives is it? +Mhm that's right yes some of the women were locked up for fifteen years. +Really do to you. +Some kind of brain. +Not enough of it is the conclusion there. + +The Queen visits Cyprus and walks into a row over executions thirty years ago. +And the motorist who changed a wheel in the fast lane of the M Six. +Amid growing speculation that the treasury wants another billion pounds cut from Britain's defence budget, ministers get a stark warning against inflicting grave damage on the effectiveness and morale of the armed forces. +The warning came from the all party, defence select committee, whose Conservative chairman said the country's defence capability had already been pared to the bone. +The fears were repeated by Conservative back benchers in the Commons this afternoon when the defence secretary announced a number of measures, including the scrapping of a new nuclear missile for the R A F, the selling of of Rosyth and Devonport dockyards and a new role for the reserve forces. +Mr Rifkind was opening a two day defence debate which Labour said was being rushed through before cuts in next months budget. +Labour's defence spokesman David Clark said, any reductions should be justified on defence criteria, not on a passing whim of the treasury. +Defence workers turned out in force at Westminster, a reminder to the government that if its determination to curb spending means cutting the defence budget, jobs as well as the armed forces will suffer. +These royal ordnance workers know that much depends on an ammunition order currently frozen by the treasury. +Inside the Commons, the defence secretary Malcolm Rifkind wouldn't be drawn on his battle with the treasury. +Only making this coded appeal for the armed forces not to be left too stretched over too many tasks. +The white paper that was published some months ago indicates I think, very clearly, the kind of commitments that we have and the way in which we are meeting those commitments. +Clearly any deliberation of future policy has to look and look very responsibly and comprehensively er both at the question of the commitments that our armed forces have er and the best way in which we can carry out those commitments. +These are matters on which it is quite proper that there should be an ongoing er debate. +But the opposition accused Mr Rifkind of rushing today's defence debate because everything hinged on the public spending settlement to be announced next month. +The truth is they're rushing through the debate because they know that in the budget the next month, the chancellor will announce further defence cuts. +And I emphasize, it'll be the chancellor, it will be the chancellor making the announcements and not the defence secretary. +In his battle with the treasury, Mr Rifkind won valuable backing. +A report on the Royal Navy by the Commons defence committee gave a dire warning of the impact of the cuts already under way, let alone those that my be in prospect. +The MP said the fleet is too small to defend Britain's sea lanes in war. +A potentially fatal threat to the country's long term security. +Even as they gathered their evidence the defence committee members knew they had no power, only the hope of influence. +So their intention is to warn fellow MPs and the public of the dangers of cutting the armed forces too far. +I hope that people will sit up and take notice of it. +Defence isn't always at the top of the political agenda and in periods of long time peace as we have now enjoyed, people tend to forget the dangers are still genuine and still there. +And what message do you hope to carry to the treasury by this report? +Hands off our defences. +Mr Rifkind, seen here in Bosnia, needs that support to resist a treasury threat to cut another billion pounds off the defence budget. +In each of the next three years. +Defence committee members believe the government must decide on a foreign policy first. +Our investigation reveals that we're continuing to ask the armed forces to meet a series of commitments and all the time we're reducing the resources available to them to meet these commitments. +I don't think that makes any kind of sense. +We must get a balance between commitments and resources, and we'll only get that when we have a full scale review of Britain's defence obligations, both present and future. +One decision was clear today, the R A F will not now be buying a new nuclear missile. +This French system was one contender for a weapon that would have cost two billion pounds. +A rare defence decision not to be controversial. +David Shukman, B B C News, Westminster. +Announcing the plan to sell off the Rosyth and Devonport dockyards, Mr Rifkind said that privatization would benefit the Navy, the taxpayers and the yards themselves. +But union officials say they're worried that the sell off will lead to more job losses. +The decision to sell off the yards come nearly four months after Devonport won a contract to refit Trident submarines against competition from Rosyth. +For two years, Rosyth and Devonport dockyards fought a bitter battle to land a five billion pound contract to refit Britain's Trident submarines. +Devonport won but Rosyth was promised surface ship refitment contracts as a consolation. +Since then, both yards which are run by private firms under contract, have announced hundreds of redundancies. +Devonport workers thought today's announcement is bound to add to the uncertainty over their future. +Yeah we had five hundred er a couple of days back and I would think there's probably another five hundred or so to go. +With this shock news as well there's going to be a lot more redundancies which has got to be bad for Plymouth and the economy of Plymouth as well. +But managers of D M L, the Devonport management firm, were optimistic about the future. +There would be a short handover period, er it would have to be administered, but from where we sit, we're going to actually submit a bid that sees off the competition. +Local unions were less enthusiastic about how workers would be affected. +This is really scraping the bottom of the barrel, selling off the defence related industries of our country and I don't believe the people of this country will be prepared to put up with that. +Once both yards are in the private sector, the danger for Rosyth is that Devonport bolstered by its secure base-load of Trident contracts, will be able to undercut the Scottish yard for surface work too. +There has always been the issue of, Is there actually enough Royal Navy refit work to keep two dockyards in full employment? +Erm do we need two full dockyards? +Now from an economic point of view, you probably don't. +For some years the naval dockyards have been operating in a limbo land. +Halfway between the public and the private sectors. +But there's no clear idea of what they will be worth or how many private sector bidders there will be. +Meanwhile for the workers there's added uncertainty about their future. +Iain Carson, B B C News. +The Queen has arrived in Cyprus for the commonwealth conference, to a row over a series of executions thirty years ago. +Her visit has revived memories of the island's bloody struggle for independence. +Cypriot nationalists say the Queen should have stopped the executions of nine guerilla fighters arrested during the fight for independence. +The Queen flew into Lanacka Airport and was met by the Greek Cypriot President, Mr Clarides. +She will be here for a week and her visit is already shrouded in controversy. +Over the past week, small groups of protestors have highlighted the hanging by the British of nine Eoka members during the fifties. +They claim the Queen refused to intervene, and as a consequence, she must be denied the keys to the cities of Nicosia and Limassol. +The demonstrations have been small, but memories of British rule here are still vivid. +In Nicosia's Eoka museum, pictures of British troops when they tried to fight off the separatists. +These Eoka guns were used to kill more than fifty British soldiers before the Republic of Cyprus was formed. +Today, this Greek Cypriot author is in the eleventh day of a hunger strike. +He's calling for more street demonstrations when the Queen arrives in Nicosia tomorrow. +But more importantly for the Republic of Cyprus, shaped by the late Archbishop Makarios, the conference will concentrate minds on the division of the island. +It is a recognition that er the Republic of Cyprus is clearly one entity despite the attempt made by the Turkish Cypriot side to declare a separate state. +It is a recognition of the legitimacy of the Republic of Cyprus. +The president of North Cyprus, Rauf Denktash, said the conference locations was a bad idea. +Well I do say that er this is merely an encouragement of the Greek Cypriot side, to continue in its er policy of to be the government of Cyprus at our expense. +They should not have done it. +This evening attention centres upon the hotel in the U N buffer zone which divides Nicosia. +Where there was to be a meeting between the two presidents and Douglas Hurd. +The Greek Cypriots got wind of an idea by Mr Hurd to meet Rauf Denktash on his own and they say that would be an unfriendly act. +Greek Cypriot anti-terrorist squads meanwhile concentrated their minds on rehearsing for any hostile threat to security here. +As the hullabaloo over the Queen and the conference continues. +Michael Macmillan, B B C News, Cyprus. +Health officials in Gateshead are contacting more than seven hundred women after discovering that the doctor who carried out cervical smear tests on them had not used the correct procedure. +The Gateshead Family Health Service's Authority says it's known about the situation since May nineteen ninety two. +But the doctor's stopped carrying out smear tests only a week ago. +Seven hundred and forty four women, patients at this surgery in Gateshead are being recalled for new smear tests. +Four have yet to be traced. +Their G P Felix Lusman had been using a faulty technique for the past five years. +Gateshead Family Health Service's Authority admitted it had known what was going on for more than a year, but action was taken only after a patient contacted them. +We to say was aware of the practice in May of nineteen ninety two but I am not clear er as to what took place at that stage because we haven't as yet looked into that. +Doctors carrying out a smear test, should use an instrument called a speculum to open the vagina to ensure that they can see the cervix when taking a sample with a specially shaped spatula. +But Dr Lusman failed to use a speculum. +In this case Dr Lusman did not do that and he took the sample by using his finger and a spatula, in what you might call a blind manner, and doing it by feeling. +So the sample may not have been complete er and once the sample was taken, one could have lost some of the material. +Although the risks to patients are small, not surprisingly, some visiting Dr Lusman's surgery were anxious. +I'm quite shocked. +They're professional people I mean they don't really explain to you what they're doing. +Even though it sh they should. +This is the latest in a series of clinical errors which have bedeviled the national screening programme. +Last month more than a thousand women in Birmingham were recalled after a nurse was said to be using the wrong type of spatula. +Earlier in the year, laboratory errors at a hospital in Greenock led to twenty thousand women being recalled. +Officials in charge of the Cervical Screening Programme say women should not be deterred from having tests although they couldn't rule out more mistakes. +We will see maybe some more of these. +We'll kee got to keep on getting it in proportion that ninety nine percent of them have been done right and that's as to the seven hundred tests in out of four point five billion, is very small numbers indeed so the vast majority of women can be reassured. +Health officials in Gateshead are now investigating why firm action wasn't taken earlier. +To prevent a G P in their area disregarding national guidelines with the result that hundreds of women now face the distress of further testing. +Fergus Walsh, B B C News. +British Rail's Network Southeast which covers many of the most heavily used routes in England, has announced fare increases from January averaging six percent. +Some fares in Scotland are also going up by six percent. +The rises are between three and four times the rate of inflation. +Rail passenger groups say they're disgraceful. +Fares in other regions are due to go up in May. +Network Southeast carries passengers three hundred and ninety million passengers a year, more than half the total for the whole of B R. So although off peak increases have been pegged at four percent, today's announcement affects huge numbers of commuters. +It'll hit travellers as far apart as Exeter, Peterborough and King's Lynn. +On some lines season tickets will go up by eight percent. +The cost of an annual season ticket between Cambridge and London, rises from two thousand three hundred and forty to two thousand five hundred and twenty eight pounds. +Between London and Brighton, the cost goes up from two thousand on hundred and seventy six to two thousand three hundred and eight. +B R says such rises were inevitable given the present state of its finances. +We've got a two hundred and thirty million pound gap to make up and just to put this into some sort of context, the fares will give us slightly less than fifty million. +So most of our effort is actually going into reducing our costs. +We're dismayed that Network Southeast is seeking to put up season ticket fares by up to four times the rate of inflation on some lines. +That just cannot be justified er by the quality of service being provided. +The fare increases would have been bigger but for the governments last minute intervention. +Even so, faced with a possible back bench rebellion over privatization of railways, the latest increases are embarrassing. +The Prime Minister and every member of the government wants to hold fare increases down to reasonable levels and I'm pleased that er at six percent average, that's a reasonable contribution by the travelling passenger on British Rail and London Transport to the enormous investment sums that are required. +Next April B R will be split into twenty five separate businesses and lose control of tracks and signalling. +But however it's divided, the financial dilemma will remain. +Christopher Wain, B B C News. +West Midlands police have formally cautioned a motorist for stopping his car in the fast lane of the M Six to change a tyre. +When the police arrived to rescue the driver, who'd parked on a blind bend of the motorway, he'd explained that he hadn't wanted to risk ruining his tyre by driving the extra distance to the hard shoulder. +The entire incident was captured by police video cameras as Liz Munroe reports. +The motorist had been travelling Northbound on the M Six near the Walsall and Wolverhampton turnoff. +He decided to change his flat tyre in the fast lane on one of the busiest stretches of motorway in Europe. +As dozens of cars swerved to avoid him, some just narrowly missed colliding with other vehicles. +The scene was captured on police cameras and watched in disbelief by officers at a nearby control room. +Motorways are dangerous enough place at the best of times. +To actually stop on the hard shoulder is very dangerous. +But to do it in lane three, to get out and change a tyre is beyond belief. +That particular stretch of the motorway is in is very very busy, where he stopped was just round a fairly blind right hand bend and traffic was approaching that at their normal lane three speed, and they were faced with a stationery vehicle. +A police car finally arrived at the scene and officers spoke to the motorist. +he told them he'd stopped in the fast lane instead of moving to the hard shoulder because he didn't want to ruin his tyre by driving on after a puncture. +The police had to revers their patrol car down lane three to try and warn other motorists of the danger. +A policeman then had to bring the traffic in all three lanes to a standstill while the motorist and his passenger crossed to safety. +The police simply cautioned the man, but they say that with so many vehicles having had to break and swerve, it's a miracle there wasn't a serious accident. +Liz Munroe, B B C News, Birmingham. +The time is six seventeen and still to come, the pop singer George Michael goes to court to try to get out of his recording contract. +He says it's too restrictive. +Plus, hundreds of jobs to go as Euro Disney's troubles continue. +One of Britain's most successful pop singers, George Michael, has asked a High Court Judge to declare his recording contract null and void. +He says the contract with Sony music is too restrictive and the company takes too much of the profits. +Even if he loses the case, the singer has said he'll never record for Sony again. +This case if George Michael wins, could transform the music industry by increasing the independence of artists. +He claims the great record company he signed to as a teenager has become part of a giant electronics corporation. +And though his contract has been renegotiated, he wants it declared void and unenforceable. +Contracts like George Michael's can last a professional lifetime, the artist gets the security he craves early in his career but hands over the copyright and much profit from his recordings. +He's had a series of clashes with Sony, which his counsel says was unhappy when he wished to play down his sex symbol image, and didn't put its back behind promoting recent albums. +It's gone to it's got to a stage where he made that statement which he very very much means, he will never ever give them another album of his to market worldwide. +But that could mean that he never sings again if he loses this case. +His attitude is so be it. +Central to the singer's case is what his Q C Mark Cramm calls the unreasonable duration of the contract. +Which has now run for five years and could continue for another twelve to fifteen years, until he's supplied the remaining six albums. +But Sony is expected to argue that this contract has moral and legal force, was freely negotiated and is of a type common in the industry. +George Michael's counsel told the court that Sony has made worldwide profits of over fifty two million pounds from the singer's recordings, whereas Mr Michael has made profits of over seven million pounds. +An imbalance of seven to one. +But he said that this case is not about money but about the contract which effectively it's argued is a restraint of trade. +The court heard of royalties that vary widely between countries and of a Sony deduction for packaging in excess of the actual cost. +But the big record companies say they need elaborate long term contracts to invest in new talent. +These could be threatened. +If George wins, erm a lot of artists are gonna be looking at their contracts and erm those that are signed on similar terms will no doubt want to er er renegotiate. +George Michael will be giving evidence and the case could last till Christmas. +Wesley Kerr, B B C News, the High Court. +Britain's so called special relationship with the United States has come under strain after President Clinton claimed that Britain had let America down by not backing its policies over Bosnia. +He made his c his remarks in an interview with the Washington Post. +Today, Baroness Thatcher, who formed a close relationship with President Reagan while in office, said any breakdown in the relationship must be mended. +Lady Thatcher wasn't making the point but others were. +When she was Prime Minister, relations with the United States and in particular he personal contacts with President Reagan, were far more special than they are now. +And as she took part in the publicity drive for her memoirs, she stressed the importance of close ties with Washington. +Whatever is wrong now between the Americans and Europe and especially Britain, it must be mended. +The Anglo-American lati relationship has done more for the defence and future of freedom than any other alliance in the world. +Soon after President Clinton took over, after talks with John Major, he claimed a continuation of the special relationship with Britain was not in doubt. +But serious trouble erupted when his Secretary of State, Warren Christopher, tried to get Europe's approval for lifting the Bosnian arms embargo. +Britain and France refused to back the plan and in the Washington Post at the weekend, President Clinton complained, the French and British felt it far more important to avoid lifting the arms embargo on Bosnia, than to save the country. +John Major told me, he wasn't sure he could sustain his government is he agreed to American policy. +Warren Christopher was even more dismissive. +Western Europe, he said, is no longer the dominant area of the world. +It's no secret that we had disagreements with the British and the French on how we should best approach the issue of Bosnia. +We had one position, the British and French had another. +Er in August er at er at NATO we managed to resolve those and get a a combined position. +The foreign office were also keen to stress that this was old news. +Officials insisted relations with Washington were now excellent. +But a former official who had been Lady Thatcher's senior advisor, warned of the dangers of America turning aside from Europe. +In the future, we've got to keep the United Stated engaged in the world. +It's got to go on playing a world role. +It'll be the more willing to do so if Britain is alongside it. +Of course not on the same scale, but there helping, supporting. +The government takes the view that President Clinton was simply addressing domestic critics of his foreign policy and that his complaints shouldn't set the alarm bells ringing. +But the incident has drawn attention to the fact that since the collapse of the Soviet Union, Europe with Britain as America's main ally can no longer expect to be guaranteed a place at the centre of United States foreign policy. +John Sergeant, B B C News, Westminster. +Euro Disney is cutting nine hundred and fifty jobs from its workforce of eleven thousand. +The company says that most of the losses will be in administrative and management positions, not among workers in the companies Paris theme park. +It's the latest setback for Euro Disney which has been losing money since it opened eighteen months ago. +The Disney hasn't quite worked this side of the Atlantic. +Ever since Europe's largest theme park opened eighteen months ago, it's been cursed by financial problems. +At the start they had over fourteen thousand people working in the park, after today's announcement, they'll have just over ten thousand. +And then there's the problem that visitors to Euro Disney are bypassing the shops. +Preferring to spend their time on the attractions. +Unlike in America where much of the revenue comes from spending on merchandise and in restaurants. +And there were cultural miscalculations too. +This Summer Disney finally relented and allowed alcohol to be sold after they realized that the French were not interested in eating if there was no drink on offer. +As the French franc went up, so did the cost of visiting Euro Disney. +And then came Europe's worst recession since the war. +The park has tried to repair the damage by cutting prices at the gates and in the hotels but visitors still complain it's too expensive. +I think er when you go to the hotels it's overpriced. +The hotels are very expensive. +I think it's er I think for the Summer not for the Winter. +Here it's very cold . +And the empty car parks are a testimony to that. +It can only get worse as the long Winter stretches ahead. +On a freezing October Monday like this, the visitors aren't exactly flocking through the gates. +Disney had considered closing the park during the Winter months but instead they're offering a whole package of cut price deals. +It may not be enough to save them. +Kirsty Lang, B B C News, Euro Disney. +At least three people have been killed and two critically injured in a shooting incident at the American military base at Fort Knox. +A civilian gunman is reported to have gone on the rampage at the base in Kentucky which houses the nation's gold repository. +The gunman is still believed to be at large, police have sealed off the area and are checking all cars. +A new type of television service that allows the viewer to select videos on demand is causing friction between cable television companies and British Telecom. +The cable companies fear huge competition from the system and the hundreds of new uses for the domestic television sets that are being developed. +Our media correspondent Nick Hyam reports. +It sounds like the stuff of science fiction, but soon you'll be able to order up concert tickets while watching television using your set just like a computer. +To see if there are any tickets available, you click on the arena. +It's called interactive television. +Huge amounts of information can now be compressed digitally and sent in both directions along television cables. +So you can play along with a television quiz show using a handset like this, or shop from home. +Already cable television companies have installed their telephones in place of British Telecom's in more than two hundred thousand homes. +Telephone, television and computer technology are converging and high tech companies are scrambling for a slice of the action. +B T's developed a system for sending television pictures down telephone wires. +It hopes to use it to run a video on demand service. +You ring up, order a film and it's played down to your television set almost immediately. +But B T has yet to prove it works in practice. +I think a lot of people are getting too excited about a technology which is which has been dreamed up by people who wish it would happen rather than prove it can happen. +At their annual trade show today, cable companies expressed alarm at the prospect of competition from B T. There's a government ban on the phone company sending television pictures over its network but the regulators believe the ban doesn't cover video on demand. +The government's quite happy with that. +I think it would be very foolish of er of the government to stop that kind of er innovation, that kind of er er research going forward without knowing what the end results are going to be. +Meanwhile cable companies are pressing ahead to develop their own black boxes which will turn the humble television into a computerized communications centre. +Nobody knows quite what services the public can be persuaded to buy or how big the market may be, but nobody neither the cable companies nor British Telecom, wants to be left out. +Nick Hyam, B B C News, at the European Cable Convention in London. +And the main news again. +The defence secretary has announced further cuts to Britain's armed forces, including the cancellation of a nuclear missile system for the R A F. The decisions came as MPs warned that cuts the treasury are said to be seeking, would leave Britain unable to defend itself. +Health officials in Gateshead have revealed another blunder involving cervical smear tests. +And the Queen has arrived in Cyprus to a row over executions that took place thirty years ago. +The next national news is the Nine O'clock News but from Moira Stewart and from me, good evening. + +Was genuine he added at this time that er the further information was that the occupants of the flat at were frightened of . +H h he had, what did he say? +He thought they were frightened or the telephonist or or what? +Er my Lord, the added bit of information that was, that erm was then passed to me was that when the man rang the police station the information that he gave to the telephonist included the fact that the occupants of the flat were frightened . +Right right. +said he went to the police station but it follows that you were were at home which . +I was at home er up until that point. +Were you on duty at home or off duty at home? +I was off duty, but on call. +On making those further enquiries you've just told us about at the police station. +Did you er, were you satisfied the operation should continue as discussed with Assistant Chief Officer . +I also met the police station er Sergeant and and after discussing further the matters with him erm then I was happy an armed operation was er was necessary. +Superintendent if any other information had come to light over the next few hours would you have reconsidered the matter? +Depending on the information, yes erm. +So without really putting it more bluntly er, was there always the option to call this off? +There was always the option to call this off er to the very last moment when erm I gave the order for the officers to go in. +Was there at some time then, a briefing for the officers who were going to go into the flat? +Yes,it was five fifteen A M of the following morning, at . +Who conducted the briefing? +Sergeant mainly er gave the briefing and after going through the formality of giving er the officers the deb the information that had been received er our intention erm a method by which we going to follow this through erm and other information such as radio call signs. +erm I then asked er additional questions to see what the up to the minute information was at that time. +at that meeting were you satisfied the operation should continue? +Yes I I was erm the additional information that was available to me at this time, er Sergeant the er having left me the previous night er had actually, had gone to the premises erm, gone to the flats erm and had er put himself in the area of the flat and was able to tell me that he had heard voices, two male voices coming from within the flat. +Did you yourself take part in the operation to go in with the guns? +In other words did you the flat? +Er, no er that only armed officers actually erm would go into the flat. +So you were not. +. +What was your role during the search? +I was the commander and er I was erm in a control vehicle, a police vehicle, er was parked nearby to the flat. +And what is that vehicle called, is it only. +Well it is the, it's the control vehicle er which contains myself and my tactical advisor er Sergeant . +Yes. +And we were in radio contact with the firearms team. +The same consideration given Superintendent to the question of medical facilities. +Yes we were actually erm, the position of the control vehicle was erm in front of an ambulance that we had asked to to be there and the crew were briefed as to what we were doing and and what injuries possibly could arise. +Did you for the operation? +I did so, yes. +Do you remember the approximate time of that. +I think it was about six A M. +And did you in due course, go to the flat? +Yes I did. +When did you go to the flat? +Er it was a short time after, having given the order for the officers to enter the flat, erm maybe three or four minutes after that erm, having received the information that the flat was secure, it was safe to enter er I then went up to the flat. +Did Sergeant accompany you to the flat? +No he did not. +Sergeant? +yes. +On arriving at the flat did you speak to Mr ? +Yes er it would be more accurate to say he spoke to me. +He he was very excitable, excitable and he was angry erm he was shouting at me er that he'd been spreadeagled naked er on the floor, guns had been pointed at him and his front door had been smashed down and his er his family, his wife and children had been frightened. +Pausing there Superintendent. +When you first saw Mr was he wearing anything upon the lower part of his body? +He had his trousers on. +Was he still handcuffed or were the handcuffs off? +He was not handcuffed. +Did you say anything to him? +Yes I did er I sh I won't say the exact words but they were words to the effect that er that I was sorry, that I understood and appreciated that er erm his family would have been terrified by the experience. +Erm that we had no alternative to do what we did er that C I D officers would speak to him and I believe that he would better understand er wh why we have done what we did er and I assured him that the damage to his door will would be repaired. +Did you speak to er Mrs at all? +I did not, no. +how long had you been in the police force? +Er thirty two years. +So could you . +When you rang what did you know about the occupiers of the flat. +That is how many there were and who they were? +I knew that er Mr er lived there and probably his wife, er maybe nothing more. +Sorry, but maybe nothing more. +Did you know any more or didn't you know any more? +Well I I've answered that way sir, cos I can't be sure. +Well let me put it plainly, did you or did you not know that there were two children or three children indeed in that flat? +I at no time, erm until after the incident, knew that. +Did you make any enquiries and if so what enquiries, to try to find out who the occupiers ? +Only from a record that would have been available at the police station or from officers knowledge. +Well what did those enquiries reveal? +That Mr er did live at the flat erm with his wife, there may have been children but we didn't know for certain and that the previous night two male persons appeared to have been there. +So when Assistant Chief Constable told the jury yesterday I would have discussed the question of who were the occupiers before giving my authority that was, do you remember that . +That was presumably then that we think Lawrence was there, it's flat, we think his wife's there. +There may be children. +That . +If I think that yes. +Now this sort of er I don't want to use the word raid. +This sort of operation needs to be authorised and doesn't it? +Not just the arming of the officers, that needs one authorisation but on forcible entry needs another authorisation doesn't it? +Erm no sir. +So you made the decision that there'd be a forcible entry to this flat, is that right? +Yes sir. +At six in the morning. +Yes sir. +But you say that that decision and the reasons for it were never er, and the authority for it, the reasons for it, were never reduced to . +Er, the only authority that was given was the authority to arm the officers by Mr which he would have put in to writing, er he was aware as to the method of entry to the of the flat but that no authority, no written authority was given for that. +What my solicitors finding from a letter let me tell you why I ask. +There was a police complaints authority investigation into all of this. +That is correct. +The letter which has just been found refers to something like called a police operational order authorising the raid, saying that had disappeared by the time the police complaints authority started looking for it. +Have you any idea what that refers to? +Yes I have er it would refer to the operational order. +Erm the, it refers to an operational order er, an operational order is not a document that actually authorises police officers to do something. +It it sets out erm what the information is, er what the intention is, the method that we would follow er any communications, any administration. +It's a, it's a briefing document so that er all those involved are, that all those that are involved on the operation erm, are as well informed as is possible. +Erm, I'm at a lost on this. +You're being asked erm you told us you rang up the Assistant Chief Constable who gave you the authority to carry out the armed operation. +Yes my Lord. +Now at that stage you were doing it on the telephone were you? +That's correct my Lord. +So you didn't have a letter there and then and asked something about was it put into writing. +No no no er +Well that, sorry I I I've lost it, so let's . +A Mr yesterday, he was just authorising the use of firearms and he said that was put into writing and we've got that form but that only authorises the issue of firearms er the practicality, the authorising and the carrying out of the raid isn't covered by that document. +It's covered by the document this officer's . +And when does the authority to issue the firearms, when's that signed? +Er it was er well it said,I think . +Lord would it help if,the issue of firearms authorisation which was signed by Assistant Chief Constable +I really wanted to know when it was done. +The verbal authoris authorisation was given at seven fifty P M on the fourth of December and there was a subsequent tactical, the tactical advisor Sergeant spoke to the Assistant Chief Constable at eight fifteen. +Both those times are recorded, I've got copies for the jury. +But I'm I I I'm not sure what relevance it is, I mean is this some procedure that it's got to be reduced into writing? +My Lord if I can help. +I think what what point is being made is er albeit from assistance from should have been referred is that an operation will always have been drawn up. +It's a very simple matter and it it, there's no so even if the jury are about to hear it from the witness. +Which like the breaching order in effect. +It just sets out the information with any further suggestions. +Sergeant will give evidence as to why he supported it afterwards. +there's no legal . +No right then, the we know this er isn't an issue that the Assistant Chief Constable said you can go ahead with this operation. +Well I I I'm not sure what what document is now being referred to. +Some document that erm was produced and lost at some point or. +My Lord, I think the case is being made if I may say so sir, to give the jury the impression that the police just document. +The police destroyed the document in question, they'll tell you why they have destroyed it . +There was here some enquiry and the that enquiry as a matter of public policy I understand the documents aren't to be available, even if they assist the police, or if they assist the other side. +But my Lord. +It's simply something that we're all bound by. +My Lord yes, +Yes well then I'm not sure,wh what is this document Mr ? +As er the officer was saying it's a briefing document prepared before the raid, therefore of course it's not covered by public interest immunity. +The reason I'm in it is that document, as the officer says, sets out the information given as the offer as the officer put it. +That is the information on which the police were acting when they decided it was reasonable to take this action. +Right. +I just wanted to know what that information was, that's all. +But if the document doesn't exist, it doesn't exist unless you can remember what the information was on that document but I would imagine . +Only that it would have contained the information er as I've detailed already. +Now would you, I think it must be right that you were at the at five fifteen in the morning conducted by Sergeant . +Yes sir. +Broadly were the policemen being told they were dealing with a hostage situation, or a harbouring situation? +I'm not actually sure that either er was mentioned erm, what they would have been told er was that there was an escaped prisoner there er who was armed and our intention was to arrest him. +Now I do not actually recall er us going into detail about the harbouring er and I certainly don't recall erm that we were talking about a hostage situation. +Well it's just that it's the Chief Constable's case that when er er sorry when was got from his bed he was told that he was being arrested for harbouring and escapee Lawrence . +Have you any idea which ever officer said that formed the impression that it was a harbouring situation? +No er that is a matter for the officer er to answer. +The only other thing is this. +The armed police went into the flat and you and Sergeant stayed in the control vehicle. +Yes sir. +Some time subsequently you yourself went to the flat. +Yes sir. +Did any other police officers go into the flat in, to your knowledge, go into the flat in that interval. +I mean after the armed police officers but before you? +It's quick like quite likely that C I D officers almost certainly, C I D officers would have gone before me. +So when Mr said that the firearms office majority of language, when the firearms officer said wait for the C I D and then some other policemen arrived and then you, that may well be right because from what you say it may well be that the C I D did get to the flat after the officers but before ? +That's right. +Great. +My Lord I have no real examination to do, does your Lordship have any questions? +Er and where would the se . +You were in a car, the control car. +Yes my Lord. +How far away from the flat? +Initially probably about er three hundred yards er in a in a side junction erm, but as, once the ins once the operation had commenced erm we moved up onto the car park actually on, below the flats. +And erm, where were the C I D officers whilst the armed officers went in? +I'm not actually sure erm. +Well would they be close at hand? +They would have been close at hand my Lord erm I just don't know, it may be that, I think they were probably in a vehicle also close at hand ready to . +Yes. +Yes, thank you erm Mr . +My Lord I call er Sergeant . +Take the book in your hand and repeat after . +I swear by Almighty God. +I swear by Almighty God. +That the evidence I shall give. +That the evidence I shall give. +Shall be the truth. +Shall be the truth. +The whole truth. +The whole truth. +And nothing but the truth. +And nothing but the truth. +Thank you. +Sergeant tell where you currently live. +I live in er a province of in Spain my Lord. +And er retired from the police force now? +I have yes. +I thought it was exclusively terrible criminals that live in that part of the world. +Perhaps I've been watching too much television yes. +Wh when did you retire Sergeant ? +I retired in er September last year, nineteen ninety two. +And in December of nineteen eighty eight, er what was your rank and where were you positioned? +I was a Sergeant at er police headquarters and my duties amongst er others was as a senior tactical advisor for the police force on firearms matters. +My Lord, first of all can I just ask whether you could tell the jury something about the training of firearms officers? +Yes. +Initially er all firearms officers by the nature of the duties, are volunteers. +They receive no extra remuneration whatsoever for their duties although at some times of course it can be quite dangerous. +Er, applications are accepted from all officers who have completed a two year period of probation and no applications are considered whilst an officer is in his probation. +First and foremost erm there is an assessment of those officers by their immediate supervisors and er a then ensues whereby er suitable officers are s selected to come for a two day assessment at er police headquarters. +Just pausing there , I think it will become relevant. +What is the purpose of that assessment by the police? +The assessment by the police is to eliminate erm any officer that er has psychopathic tendencies or er on the other side of the coin, to eliminate those officers that erm might be so timid that they wouldn't be able to perform the duties should it be necessary for them to fire a weapon. +You eliminate those who are too timid or those you think are too aggressive. +Precisely my Lord. +So Mr it would perhaps be right to think then that you're looking for cover for the firearms unit? +Certainly not no, certainly not. +And after they've that psychological assessment. +Is there any other assessment of their capabilities? +Yes er a physical assessment er takes place, they're given er a medical, eyesight, hearing tests and going on from that er er a one day assessment in the actual use of firearms takes place before they are actually selected to er attend a preliminary course of two weeks duration. +And what does the preliminary two week course involve? +It involves all aspects of erm the law in relation to firearms, their issue, their use er great emphasis placed on er section three of the criminal law act in respect of the use of reasonable force. +Their actual ability to fire a weapon, a hand gun in this case. +Their ability to react to given situations using slide and a film projector images and er a written examination at the er end of it, plus a full classification shoot whereby they have to reach a certain standard erm of ability in order to er pass the two week course. +Mr I assume it's are they free to go out and use firearms? +No erm they are then authorised and issued with an authorisation card following the successful completion of the course to carry a firearm on police duties if required er, the authorisation is issued by either the Chief Constable or er his deputy and that would enable the officer if required to go an armoury at one of the police stations and produce his card and be issued with a weapon if necessary. +That card er contains information er regarding er the law and er instructions to the officer in addition each officer receives er a set amount of training per month. +At the time of this incident the incident was carried out by a group of officers who were called the operational support unit. +Those officers were especially selected from erm the firearms officers we had available at that time and they were responsible for all firearms operations within the county. +They've trained in addition to the once a month or even twice a month, they've trained whenever their duties allowed. +Mr in December nineteen eighty eight, how long had you been a firearms officer, or tactical advisor? +I an authorised officer in nineteen sixty eight, so it'd have been twenty years and er from there I became er an instructor in nineteen eighty four er having successfully completed a number of national run courses on firearms, firearms tactics at the national school of firearms er which are in the metropolitan district and er Lancashire and West Yorkshire. +And just finally on the Mr are you able to put an approximate number, er figure to the number of such operations you've been involved in? +Hundreds. +Could you tell us what your role was in the operation to go into ? +Yes er my role was the tactical advisor on this operation and in doing that . +What were the name what does tactical advisor mean? +It meant because of my experience and my knowledge I was erm able to advise the Superintendent in charge, Mr , on the various options that were available to him and also erm advise him whether he was considering other options, whether they would be safe or otherwise. +Do you remember at what time you were contacted approximately? +I think about eight o'clock in the evening at home. +Did you then go to ? +Yes I did. +And did you go to the planning question at all before the operation? +Yes I did. +And when was that? +I recollect about half past ten that evening on the fourth. +And er what was in the flat? +It wasn't my intention originally to go to the flat, it was my intention to reconnoitre the area in order that I could supply the officers who were going to do the actual operation with up to date information as to erm the methods of getting in to the block of flats because they had a coded key door erm and to acquaint myself of the actual physical erm presence of lifts, stairways and that sort of thing. +As it was er quite late on a Sunday evening I did in fact take the opportunity to listen at the door of the flat in question. +And what did you hear anything? +Yes, I heard two men speaking and the possibility of either another man or a woman also in the premises. +And as a result of that reconnoitre, where did you then go? +I then returned back to the er police station where I commenced to write the operational order in respect of the incident. +And is the operational order er the document that is being referred to be the plaintiff's council. +Yes it is. +And what would you put in that document? +The document is basically a briefing document in order that every piece of information erm that is available to the police is then able to be passed on to the officers who are actually going to do the job. +So they they are fully aware of the implications and er fully aware of exactly what is required of them. +Sergeant before I take you on to deal with the briefing itself, I just want to go back and ask you one thing. +The jury twenty years in time and with the information you had from Superintendent , did you consider that instead of mounting a an operation like that, you should simply surround the flat or be with . +Did you consider that? +Yes it was considered. +Er in fact it was put to me as as an option by Superintendent that this could be, if this could be done er at the time er if I recall one of the reasons erm that we weren't able to do it in such a way was that there are numerous exits to the block of flats and each exit would have had to be covered by at least two armed officers we only only had in the region of twenty five officers available to us at that time in the police who were authorised to be armed and to maintain such a surveillance, erm not only would be very costly in the terms of the number of officers. +There would have to be changes of shifts, er and the likelihood that the operation to erm, the surveillance operation would be compromised as a result. +How long do firearms officers spend on such a surveillance shift? +The minimum amount of time that is necessary er in an operation such as this when the operation is finished the officers are then allowed to go home, that's the end of their shift because erm there's a great deal of adrenalin flows on an operation like this. +On a surveillance operation we are looking at, I wouldn't like to see an officer who is armed, more than six hours in that position. +His ability to A function as a surveillance office and B to function as a armed officer after being maybe in the er in a vehicle for that length of time er is both dangerous to the public and dangerous to him. +Yes there are four exits and entrances to this block of flats with two officers on each entrance, that's eight officers to start with. +Presumably you have a command post? +Yes. +So that's within six hours you would have worked your way through more than half of your compliment of armed officers? +Correct. +That's ignoring sickness, holiday and everything else? +Yes. +And do we understand from your reference, that it's your policy that armed officers should do that job and then get home, get out of the way and relax a bit? +Yes, that is correct erm in my experience er both being erm on armed incidents er the adrenalin flow is tremendous, the officers are erm concentrating one hundred and fifty percent on their task in hand and it is very tiring work. +It's a constant threat of danger and after debrief which takes place in the police station, erm relaxation is necessary erm, we have the availability of er stress counselling as well and a period of about two hours normally elapses before the officers is er reasonably able to er function as a normal police officer again and because of this er it has been decided that the officer's duties for that day er will be terminated. +They're not like junior house doctors who do a ninety two hour week just work until they drop? +They often do ninety two hours a week but erm wouldn't do ninety two hours a week on an operation, certainly not. +Well let's move on now to try to the briefing. +Did you conduct the briefing? +Yes, in conjunction with Superintendent . +And when did you conduct it? +Er the briefing was held at er the briefing room at at five fifteen A M on the . +And who selected the officers for the operation? +The officers for the operation were selected by their commander erm the inspector in charge of the operational support unit. +I would ask him on authorisation from er the Assistant Chief Constable, I would ask him for a number of officers. +And how many did you ask for in this case? +Six armed officers, but I would also require other members of the operational support unit to support those officers in a non-armed role. +Yes and at the briefing, just tell us first of all what you said about the objective of the operation. +The objective of the operation was to arrest Mr with the proviso that it was to be done with the safety of the public to be paramount and that the safety of the police officers and Mr was also to be considered. +But the main objective was to search the house to see if Mr was there. +On on a briefing for an operation do you have to give further recommendation to advise on instructions about the use of guns or is that part and parcel of training? +No er at er briefing, officers are again reminded of their responsibilities within the law, as to reasonable force and even when the officer issuing firearms, which is not myself, er an officer of inspector rank issues the firearms, er arms to the individual officers, they are again reminded of their responsibilities within the criminal law. +Were the officers to be equipped with radios? +Yes. +And would the radios be used once they were in the flat? +That would be a decision of the officer in charge of the actual operation erm that was actually going into the flat but it was normal practice that radios would be switched off. +And who was, who was the officer who would lead them into the flat? +The officer erm lead them into the flat was Sergeant . +Sergeant? +. +Have you ever worked with Sergeant before ? +Yes I have. +Do you have confidence in him to conduct this operation? +Yes I did. +What was the decision as to how you would physically enter the flat? +The police force at that time were in possession of what is known as an automatic door opener. +This piece of er equipment was er purchased some short time before in order that er we could enter, heavily secured doors er with a minimum amount of noise in order to er gain entry to premises where there was a possible armed incident taking place, or a possible hostage situation. +Do we understand from that that you wish to gain entry without alerting the occupants? +That is the intention yes. +And does that have a bearing on the time that you conduct such operations? +It is a medical fact that the body is at its lowest ebb between three and six in the morning and the ability to react, the ability to think when one is being woken up in the early hours of the morning erm are a consideration that we take into account when we have to mount an operation inside a premises. +Er, if the person er is sitting watching the television and er has been awake for several hours then we are at a disadvantage. +In addition to the firearms that tell us about and the door opener, was any other equipment issued to the officers? +Yes the officers excuse me, the officers would be issued with a ballistic shield, this is a piece of equipment that is erm bullet proof to certain weapons and enables officers to er enter rooms er through doorways safely, even if shots are fired towards them from inside the room. +And could you just briefly describe the er the dimensions and the look of that? +It's about six feet in height and just about shoulder width, er it's coloured black and it has a bullet proof glass window of about six inches by four inches which enables the er officer behind the shield to manoeuvre it in the correct position. +Do firearms officers have any training in first aid? +Yes all firearms officers are trained first aiders and er carry St. Johns ambulance certificates. +Is there anything about the preparation of this operation that caused you to dissatisfaction? +No, none at all. +After you conducted the briefing, where did you go? +I went with er Superintendent to er where we positioned ourselves in a control vehicle and er I remained there until I heard from the firearms team inside the house that all occupants of the house had been found and were secured. +Mr it's been suggested from my plaintiff that it took ten to fifteen minutes to enter and secure the flat by the firearms officers. +Do you have any observation on that time scale? +I would say from the point where I was told on the radio that the officers were entering the premises to the point where I was told everybody was secured, could not be more than four five minutes. +That was my recollection. +Mr thank you very much if you wait there . +Yes it only took four or five minutes until you were told the occupants were secure but then it er everybody waited for the C I D to arrive. +Do you, do you know how long that took? +C I D were actually backed in the building. +They weren't in the actual flat at that time er their role was to er prevent members of the public whilst the armed officers were at the scene erm from entering the corridors at either end of the block of flats. +Did you go to the flat with er I do apologise Mr when he went ? +I did, I did go to the er the flat shortly after Mr . +I didn't go inside the premises, I just er went there to remove er the er automatic door opener. +And how long had elapsed between the armed officers going in and Mr leaving flats? +No no more than five minutes I would say. +So that was almost instan instantaneous with the message? +Yes er erm my instructions are that all persons are accounted for in the premises and er once they've been accounted for er then it was safe for other officers, i.e the C I D or Superintendent to go to that yes and they would not have been allowed in had I not received instructions that the house was secure and all persons accounted for. +Just briefly as I asked Mr were you saying harbouring situation, or are you saying hostage situation or are you saying neither? +They were considered, both of them considered, both of them considered erm but it is my recollection that erm been the inference that Mr had made the telephone calls himself. +That might have been an inference, I don't, it seems, it was there it was it was said by somebody er as a matter of course or whatever and it might well have been that erm certainly it would have been mentioned at the briefing that there was er a woman in the house, Mrs possibly and the likelihood of children, er was possibly also mentioned but there was no definite intelligence as to er the having any children. +Yes, but you'd been to the flat at about ten thirty in the evening before was there anything you heard or seen at the flat to indicate it might be a hostage situation? +No. +The only other relates to that visit to the flat. +It wasn't suggested to Mr when he gave evidence that there was another man at the flat that night, I am told that if it had been his answer would have been an unequivocal no. +Isn't it possible that you mistook the two or possibly three voices you heard, for in fact Mr and Mrs and . +There is that possibility but as I was aware . +believed to the T V. +No there was def there were definitely er er voices that were er there and there, not erm voices from the television. +My Lord I have no re-examination. +Does your Lordship have any questions? +No. +Well convenient time to take lunch. +Yes members of the jury we will resume at two o'clock, erm because I have other duties later on this afternoon we'll have to finish at four o'clock today, it may help you to know that, it may help council to know that as well. +My Lord I call Sergeant . +Just erm before you do and so that we can all follow where we're getting to erm what witnesses are you going to call? +Then we know, we shall know how we're getting on. +My Lord yes, er there's just, we're now dealing with the officers that went into the flat and conducted the operation and then there's one W P C who comes after that to give some evidence but then that's it . +I see so we've got the five officers who went into the flat now coming one after the other +My Lord yes . +plus the W P C. +My Lord yes, if I could there was a fifth officer that erm had authorised nothing and wasn't . +No it's alright I I just thought it helps me and the jury to know what where we are in the evidence. +Good. +Take the book. +Thank you. +I swear by Almighty God. +I swear by Almighty God. +That the evidence I shall give. +That the evidence I shall give. +Shall be the truth. +Shall be the truth. +The whole truth. +The whole truth. +And nothing but the truth. +And nothing but the truth. +Now could you give your current name, rank and station? +Sure er it's John currently a police sergeant stationed at . +And in December of nineteen eighty eight, what was your rank in your job? +Er in December nineteen eighty eight er I was a police constable, I was stationed at I was er a firearms instructor in the operations department and also a tactical advisor. +And when did you first become a firearms officer? +Er I first commenced training er as a firearms officer in nineteen eighty. +And when did you become a tactical advisor? +In nineteen eighty eight, having er attended all of the national courses. +Now if you, if there's a firearms officer a full time job or are there other ordinary police duties as well as. +At the time er when I was a firearms instructor er that was the job that I did every day I went to work either firearms training or firearms operations. +And er Mr have you ever had to shoot a suspect? +No I haven't, no. +Now were you involved in an operation to enter and search the flat known as in December of eighty eight? +Yes that is correct. +And were your involvement the decision to carry out the search or was your involvement the operational search? +It was the actual operation that I was involved in. +And when did you first become involved in the operation? +I would have gone to police headquarters that morning around about four A M and er from there onwards to where the briefing was. +Sergeant carried out the briefing. +He did yes, that's correct. +And were you issued with a weapon? +Yes I was. +A and what sort of weapon? +A revolver Smith and Weston revolver. +Are you familiar with that sort of gun? +Yes I am. +And ordinarily how would you carry that gun about your person? +Prior to and immediately after the operation, the weapon would be holstered erm and secured by means of a strap across er the hammer of the weapon. +Is there any way the gun could then go off in that ? +No not at all no it's a safety feature. +What was your role to be in this operation? +Technically I was er the team leader of the operation er and therefore in charge of the actual execution. +Have you been a team leader before? +Yes I have yes. +Are there any rules about pointing guns, loaded guns at people? +Yes there are certain considerations that obviously we take er we take into effect. +And what are they? +Well obviously the fact that we er are carrying a firearm and that firearm is loaded erm has to be borne in mind at all times. +Without over dramatising the fact that firearm, coupled with myself could easily kill somebody so we have to make sure that every single time we draw the weapon er there is a need, there is a justification for it er and as soon as that need and justification stops, so would we put the weapon away. +Do er firearms officers carry any special firearms card? +Yes we do, yes. +Do you have the card with you? +Yes I have. +The card that we're issued with. +Mr we will show the jury in in just a moment but could you just tell us first of all what the card says, in general terms. +Yes sure, the card itself er is authorisation that is signed by er an officer of at least the rank of Assistant Chief Constable and er it's a firearms authorisation that enables us or as an individual,to be issued with a firearm that is named on this card, er for that particular type of weapon er if if we go to a firearms operation. +And is there anything else on the er the rear of the card? +Yes sure, on the rear er if I could read it out. +Certainly. +Please read the notes below carefully. +The law section three of the criminal law act nineteen sixty seven reads a person may use such force as is reasonable in the circumstances in the prevention of crime or in effecting or assisting in the lawful arrest of offenders or suspected offenders or of persons unlawfully at large. +And then it goes on a strict reminder. +A firearm is to be used only as a last resort. +Other methods must have been tried and failed, or must because of the circumstances, be unlikely to succeed if tried. +For example. +A firearm may be used when it is apparent that the police cannot achieve their lawful purpose of preventing loss or further loss of life by any other means. +Wherever practicable an oral warning is to be used before a firearm is used. +And lastly we to individual responsibility. +The responsibility for the use of the firearm is an individual decision, which may have to be justified in legal proceedings. +Remember the law and remember your training. +Yes and er Mr do firearms officers carry such a document all the time? +Yes yes we do yes. +Lord I wonder whether the jury could er look at that or whether it would be more convenient for them to look at it later. +They can look at it now get it out of the way. +Er I I'm not quite sure of the relevance of this. +It shows that this officer was authorised to carry a gun and erm that's not in dispute. +My Lord +It it it's not the sort of thing when the gas man calls that the man is being having a gun pointed at him he says wait a minute can I see your card please. +No my Lord the idea was simply to show the jury that the police are a reminder. +Oh yes, right please. +Yes well there we are. +Have have a look at it members of the jury it's part of the part of the history as it were. +Mr again about guns, what is the your general policy on and dealing with guns in the presence of children? +Well we would never point a firearm at a child, erm there would be no cause to, no need to. +And in your mind at the time, Mr , what was the object of the operation? +The the object of the operation really was to to obviously apprehend er because at that time we believed that he was er a danger to the public and other people. +Yes. +Yes does anyone want to saying anything about the card? +Er yes sir it does not seem to have a photograph of the officer who it just has his name. +I was just wondering should it not have a photograph? +Yes certainly. +No certainly no I well what about it? +Er yes my Lord, er in conjunction with the card er we have a warrant card which is individually issued to er a respective officer with his name, his rank er and also a photograph. +Now that's the one the public can and ought to ask to see. +That that's correct yes. +When you knock at the door at night, you make sure a policeman and not something else. +That is correct my Lord yes, I have that +So got a special pass because you're a firearms officer which is essentially deals with your authorisation to have a gun and reminds you of the law. +That is correct. +But also because you're a police officer as well, you've got the usual warrant card. +That that's correct yes. +It carries your photograph. +Yes. +And it's the sort of the card the jury may well have seen on television in dramas . +Well er er as I observe the authorisation card is of general interest to us but it's not the sort of thing you're going to produce to a member of the public. +No it's certainly not my Lord no. +It's really a record simply that you have been given the authority. +That is correct my Lord yes. +And it, would it be fair to say Mr that it is a form of control within the police force? +Of course yes. +And when you actually go and draw the arms do you produce your card then? +Yes I do my Lord yes. +Yes I see well thank you. +Thanks very much. +Mr in due course did you go to the flat? +I did indeed yes. +And can you tell the jury exactly what time did you arrive at the flat? +We would ari have arrived at the block of flats prior to six o'clock but not many minutes prior to and then from there er we made our way up to that floor by the stairs as opposed to the lift. +And how many officers were to go into the flat? +Six of us in total. +And had you decided in advance where you would go once you got in? +Yes we had, yes. +That was part of the briefing. +And who took that decision? +The decision to exactly where we were going and was taken, a joint decision by Sergeant and myself. +A and before we go into what happened once got in the flat, just tell us now who was to go where in the first instance. +The the officers involved in the actual armed execution o of the the operation. +P C would have been the first man into the flat and he was carrying the shield that has been mentioned earlier. +The second person into the flat and immediately very, very close behind to P C was myself and the third person into the flat would have been P C . +Was he carrying a shield? +He was carrying a shield as well. +The fourth person would have been P C The fifth person P C and the last person forming part of the firearms team er would have been P C . +Er and put us out of our er how many ballistic shields did you take into that flat? +Into the flat itself, two. +Are you sure you didn't take three or four or five? +I have to say that I know for definite that the force at that time only possessed two shields, er we kept one shield in the South of the county at and one shield North of the county and and hence that is why I went to the headquarters in the morning. +And again before we come on to the entry. +I'd like to ask you what you were wearing? +Every single officer involved in that operation from an armed point of view, er was wearing a beret with a silver badge on the front of the black beret. +Would you have, do you have a beret like that . +I do . +Could you please get . +Sure. +Right, this is my er the original beret but this is a beret that every single officer would have been wearing on his head and then er in relation to the actual uniform that the officer would be wearing er we wear jumpsuits. +They're all identical, all the same and hence erm that'd be the the kit we were wearing there. +Thank you. +And then lastly, over the top of that jumpsuit er we would wear our ballistic armour and this is identical to the armour that we would have worn that day. +Erm my Lo my Lord again, if the jury wish to in due course. +Mr how did you gain entry to the flat? +A er one of the officers er used a door opener which is +Which officer was that? +Er P C er used the door opener which is a hydraulic system er it's a jack type principal that when activated er forces the frame apart at the side but at the same time should exert pressure onto the door and then er knock should knock it in very quickly. +And w would that be the talk about the door but once you had the door off. +Yes. +Who went into the flat first? +Well you say it should open it very quickly, what happened on this occasion? +Er my Lord I'm afraid it didn't. +Erm. +Can you tell . +It was a good it was a good question in that case. +Yes tell the jury then tell the jury what happened with the the door opener. +Er yes, the door opener in fact was was put on wrongly erm by unfortunately P C and er as the pressure started to exert outwards erm it then found that there was no resistance and consequently all the pressure was being put outwards er and as such then the machine started to to make a noise erm which then we had to switch it off, turn it round, back on again and eventually gained access. +Mr how much time did you lose by having to switch the machine round? +Whilst at the time, it it seemed an eternity, it was literally seconds, er very, very quickly because we were aware of the noise that at that time in the morning seemed to be er echoing everywhere. +And do you erm thought it at least very possible that there was someone with a gun the other side of the door. +That is correct my Lord, definitely. +Yes. +Just before I deal with how you get in just tell the jury what is your a approach in terms of the timing of the events. +Once you'd got access, what do you do? +We have to work as quickly and as safely as we possibly can and we can't afford to spend five minutes er searching a house, let alone a flat. +We have to get in as quickly and as quietly a we possibly can and then once in try and secure the place from any possible threat that might be in there. +Let's take it from the point where you have essentially broke the door down. +Who went in first? +P C . +He's with the shield. +Yes that's correct yes. +And who followed him? +I did +And what was your position in relation to him? +Er,immediately at very, very close behind him. +To such a degree that I had hold of P C . +And it, I'm sure the jury would get the it's rather an obvious question but why is that? +That's because hopefully the ballistic shield will give us a certain amount of er bullet proof cover and if I can get as close behind that shield er as I possibly can it it's got to be safer from my point of view and from P C point of view. +Where did P C and you go? +We moved er straight along the corridor to the rear main bedroom. +Now to what extent did you know the layout inside? +My Lord at the briefing that we attended er there was a sketch plan drawn up on the er the dry wipe board in the briefing room. +Not to the degree of er detail that is on the map, but a rough idea of what we be encountering. +which room you were aiming for. +Yes definitely yes. +I appreciate Mr it's now five years ago but how long did it take from when the door went down to you getting to the main bedroom? +Seconds, two or three seconds. +A and then what did either you or P C do? +Er, P C opened the bedroom door he I can't recall which way the door opened, whether it was to the left or to the right, but er P C knocked the door back erm flat against the wall. +Just pau pause a moment it why did he do that? +Er it's something that we're trained in to ensure that there is nobody hiding behind the door. +If we only opened a door partly er there is room for somebody to hide behind it and then when we go into the room then we would encounter problems. +He slammed the door open. +That is correct. +And how far did he go into the room at all? +To begin with there was a pause at the door, but a pause of perhaps I don't know, one or two seconds at the most. +Just to quickly assess that we weren't going forward to erm a horrible situation where er one of us or somebody else is going to be injured, so there would have been a very, very quick check to see who or what was in the room. +And ha by this time had you or P C said anything? +No, not until the until we opened the door, gave that quick check and then I saw a figure or figures in the bed. +Er and when you saw the figure or figures did you say anything then? +Yes I did, yes. +What did you say? +I said armed police, put your hands up. +A and did you say it in the voice you've just used now to me? +No er certainly not er I shouted my Lord. +Did you shout very loud? +Very loud, yes. +A and again,but why did you shout armed police, was there any particular reason for using those ? +Well firstly we need to it it's part of our training. +Every single operation we go on whether we are in uniform or in plain clothes er and we are carrying a firearm, we need to identify ourselves as police officers. +Because if we don't we then run the risk of being injured ourselves erm somebody alleging that they didn't realise they were police officers and therefore shot at us because they thought we were invading their territory or something. +Did you upset him? +Definitely yes. +Mr is it possible that in fact the on this occasion you forgot to shout armed police? +No I know that is definitely not the case. +As you shouted armed police where were your hands? +Certainly er by then perhaps I forgot to mention as we went through the front door my weapon was already out of the holster and by the time we'd got the bedroom door my weapon would already have been under er my eye level, hence literally aiming the weapon and from there the gun was out, my arm was out, whether I still had hold of P C I I can't recall. +You shouted armed police and was there any immediate response. +Yes there was yes. +And what was that response? +Er the, the man in the bed put his hands up. +Er, the woman put her hands up as well and then we started to move away from the door, er across the room er to avoid being stuck as a silhouette in the doorway. +Mr what was the, what was the lighting conditions when you shouted armed police? +There were no lights on er in the the bedroom itself. +Certainly not as bright as here, er sufficient light for me to be able to see that there were people in there and to differentiate between a man and a woman but er at that time not enough to to be able to clearly define anybody. +Did you try to switch the light on? +I did yes yes. +Were you successful? +To begin with er I couldn't find the light switch because my, my gaze was directed er at the people in the bed but then er I asked the man in the bed, where was the light switch and er he helped me back towards the area where the switch was and we eventually succeeded in getting the light on. +By the time the light was on, where was the man that had been in the bed? +He was still in the bed with his hands up. +When you got the light on what did you do or say? +The exact words, er I can't recall but er I talked the man out of the bed, still with his hands up and he took a few steps away from the bed. +Pause there. +Did the man have any pyjamas on? +No he didn't no. +Did he have anything on? +No he didn't. +As you your way talked him out of the bed, did he talk to you? +He did, but exactly what was said I I can't recall I I was just concerned at that time to er to get the man safely down onto the floor and secure him. +W w were you concerned to secure the lady in the bed? +No. +So he got away from the bed, he had his hands up. +What did you say to him then, you were talking him down? +Yes, er he took a couple of steps away from the bed, er then I told him to lower himself down onto his knees and then eventually lower himself down onto his chest, down onto his front. +Pause there a minute. +At that stage in the operation. +In addition to yourself, how many other officers were in the room? +Just myself and P C . +Had the others still not not come into the room? +No. +Are you about that? +Absolutely no doubt, that that wasn't part of the plan. +It didn't happen because there was no need for anybody to come into the room. +What did you then do? +Er, once the, the man was down on the floor er he placed his hands into the small of his back. +I told him that I was going to come forward er and handcuff him and then, then something along the lines of er not to move er and then once he was down on the floor, erm I holstered the weapon into my own holster. +Can I just say that's something that we don't normally do. +We would normally prefer to put er the individuals officers firearms ho ?id +You don't want him to grab your gun? +No but on this occasion we didn't have a spare holster to put the weapon into. +You'd better explain why that is. +That was because P C firearm, his revolver was still in the holster because he was carrying the shield and it was only as er I started to move forward that P C er came up to the the doorway to cover me whilst I went forward. +Did you call P C ? +Yes, yes I did. +He came to cover you and what weapon was he carrying? +Er, he was carrying a shotgun and his revolver was in the holster, hence there there was no spare holster. +You holstered your gun and then what did you do? +I then went forward to the man on the floor er, handcuffed him and stepped back. +Did he say anything to you as you went up to him? +He did but once again I I can't recall exactly what was said. +Did you say anything to him? +Er yes, erm I told him to calm down because he was quite excitable and to just stay there and somebody would explain what it was all about. +Did you arrest ? +I did yes. +Did you tell him you were arresting him? +Yes I did, yes. +When did you arrest him? +In the meantime, as I recall, er I I asked him who he was and I asked his wife who he was because he had asked what we were doing in his house and when he said his house, I thought then for the first time that perhaps this wasn't who er we had on the floor. +But I have to say that at that time I still didn't know, I had a good idea,that it wasn't the man we were looking for but therefore he was still arrested and he was arrested on sus well for harbouring an escapee. +I i if you can remember, can you tell us the words you used throughout the or the gist of the words? +The gist of the words were, you're under arrest for harbouring an escapee and he replied along the lines of you've gotta be joking mate. +Was he still naked? +Yes whether he was naked at the time of the arrest or or just er, what, what I'm getting at is er that I put some trousers on Mr . +Was that after you took the handcuffs on or before? +Yes after the handcuffs were put on, yes. +And again why did you put trousers on him? +Well,Mr er er Mr er wife was in the room, there was a child in the room, erm which at the time I didn't even realise there were two children but er there was one child in the room and er really for decency more than anything. +There seemed little point in er a wife and a child sitting looking at their husband/father er with no clothes on. +I mean it's. +Did you have to assist to get his trouser on? +Yes, that's right yes. +He still stayed on the floor, he was still handcuffed. +But er we found a pair of jeans er and having made sure that the jeans were empty of anything, er we sort of shuffled himself into the jeans a he lay down and we pulled, I I pulled the jeans up. +By the time you had arrested him or put his trousers on. +How many people were in the room? +There would still have been er P C with the shield and P C with the shotgun. +Giving you cover? +That's right yes. +Did you point the gun or shove a gun into the back of Mr head? +No, definitely no. +W why are you so certain? +Because the only time I approached the the man was when my revolver was the holster and the holster was done up. +As a matter of police practice, firearms practice what would you say about a police officer who stuck the gun at any at the back of someone's neck? +Well it's against all training that we receive, there is no need for it it is just something that we would not do. +Not only because of the risk and the safety factor er of the gun going off, because of er a movement by that person on the floor, but so there's no getting around it that, should a firearm be discharged against a solid object in as much as er the barrel is right up against an individual, and the trigger is pulled. +There's a very, very good chance that the person using a firearm will, will suffer injury because the barrel could well explode. +So that's something that we we're all aware of. +Did you see P C shove a gun into the back of Mr head? +No I did not, no. +Did you see P C do that? +No certainly not. +After you had arrested him and got his trousers on what did you do? +I then had a responsibility as the team leader to ensure that the rest of the house was secure and that none of the other units were having any problems. +I hadn't heard any shouting so therefore I didn't believe that anybody else was having any problems. +Did you go anywhere? +I started to walk a way out of the main bedroom and I heard P C say words to the effect of get down and I turned round to see what was going on and the man was trying to roll over to get up or that's what I thought, erm not kicking or or fighting or anything but just to me it looked as though he was going to get up and I went back and with my hands just pushed down onto him and said stay there, it will all be explained er and then walked away. +Did you then leave that room? +Sorry. +Did you leave the room? +I did indeed yes. +And who did you leave in the room?which officers did you leave in? +Er P C and P C . +And where did you go? +Er, I then went back er back down the passageway er into the lounge, checked the kitchen checked that the rest of the firearms officers were were okay. +Now when you went in you were carrying out a plan with you very close behind going down to the bedroom. +Yes my Lord yes. +Er, what was the plan about the others for all you knew who you believed was there, might have been somewhere else in the flat. +Yes my Lord er as soon as we went to the main bedroom which was the back bedroom at the same time as as that bedroom door opened, so the second team consisting of er P C P C would have gone into the second smaller bedroom and at the same time as we went in er P C and P C job er was to cover our backs in case of anybody in er the kitchen or the living area, the living room area. +And after leaving the main bedroom did you learn that the rest of the flat was secured ? +Yes I did, yes. +By secure what do you mean? +I mean that er all possibly threats had been secured by use of handcuffs and that there was no likelihood of anybody hiding er in the premises or certainly nobody in the premises with a firearm. +And when you arrived at that conclusion, what did you do ? +I then got straight onto the radio to Sergeant and Superintendent and informed them that the flat was secure er one person er arrested er and requested C I D and their presence. +Now again I but give us as to the length of time that elapsed between flying the door door breaker and you radioing ? +Very few minutes, perhaps three or four minutes at the absolute outside. +Was there anything about the way that you carried out the operation in the flat that caused you dissatisfaction? +It was a shame about the er the door opener not working correctly subsequently er I discovered the incident with the the other team going into the other bedroom and er a young girl being in the bed that was missed and erm. +Just pause there what do think about that girl being tipped out of the bed? +Well, it was something that shouldn't have happened and it's very regrettable, without a doubt, very regrettable. +Mr wait there there'll be some more questions. +Of course. +Getting back to the briefing if you would Sergeant. +There's a plan, rough plan of the flat. +That's correct. +And at that briefing who were you given to understand in the flat? +I was given to believe that would have been in the flat also we thought that st was going to be in there possibly a wife and it wasn't said whether there were any children. +We didn't know whether there were going to be any children. +When you say a wife, you mean Mrs there wasn't any suggestion that Lawrence had taken his own wife? +No, no not at all. +You had a plan of the flat. +Yes. +Looking at it there's one master bedroom. +That's correct yes. +Who did you expect to be in the master bedroom of the three? +There was mention made that we thought, or somebody thought, was in that bedroom. +Now what, pray, were the grounds for that. +I have to say I have no idea. +Because you see all that we've heard is that gentlemen just before Mr he listened at the door before but of course the front door is nowhere near the master bedroom. +They couldn't have come from that. +But the best you can say that the jury there was some information that be in the master bedroom you don't know where . +I'm sorry I don't. +I have to put it this way but there aren't any alternative. +Was there any by chance, any information that Mr wasn't only sharing his flat with Mr but was also sharing his wife with Mr ? +I hadn't heard that, no. +Right. +Okay, yeah right. +So you can see what you go into the master bedroom there's a man and a woman in bed, isn't it obvious in a second that it's not that it's Mr and Mrs ? +At that time no, no I'm afraid not. + +Right. +Okay. +Not long before the end of term now, pooh looking forward to er, going home to get some real food inside you I dare say, as opposed to the gruel you've been getting in hall. +Right. +Okay let's just er pick up from where we er left off last week. +Cast your minds back, last week we were looking at the relationship between price elasticity of demand and marginal revenue, and what that relationship could tell us about er prices and total revenue in an industry. +If you remember I used the example of agriculture, right, where it is generally observed that agricultural products have a price inelastic demand, okay. +So that any changes in output.. right.. lead forget that diagram it doesn't really show what I am about to say, but er when we have a price inelastic demand.. changes in output.. lead to changes in price, but the changes in output are overcompensated changes in price, so . +let's just do the diagram like that. +Okay. +In that sorry, in agriculture when there was a good harvest, prices would fall more than proportionately to the change in quantity. +As a result total revenues would be lower in the industry in years of good harvest, and when there is a very poor harvest prices rocket through the roof because of the inelastic demand and therefore the change in price is much greater than the change in quantity er.. consumed on on the market. +Right and that was the result we generally observe in agriculture in that, for example, if you have ever been down to er the West the West of England where there is a number of apple growers you will find that when there is a very big harvest, right, apples just left to rot on trees, right, simply because it is not worth farmers harvesting er those apples because they won't get er price to cover their average vanable costs. +Right. +Prices are so low in the market because there is such a bumper crop that it is simply not worth them harvesting, as a result it is rational for them er just to leave the apples um, pears and what have you on, on the trees. +Right. +However, in a very poor harvest year, right, prices rise very dramatically and as a result total income of the industry ri rises. +However, as I said before erm if you are the farmer or the grower, the apple grower whose crop has been completely decimated you won't be able to er benefit from the very high, high prices if you have got very little output right, so your as an individual your income may be very low, right, in bad years, right, but on average when we look at the industry as a whole, industry incomes will be very very very large. +Right. +. What I want to come on to now is just to talk about nonlinearity, and still with reference to demand elasticities. +So far we have just been using linear demand curves, with a linear demand curve the slope is constant, however, elasticity varies everywhere along its length. +Now with a nonlinear demand curve, right, that same relationship doesn't hold. +With a nonlinear demand curve it is the slope that changes along the curve's length, but the elasticity in some special cases, right, can remain constant. +Right. +Now I just want to look at a simple class of demand function, right, which we could write, if I can get a pen that works we write the demand function as P equals A over Q to the beta. +Right. +Now this is a special class of nonlinear demand curve right because this implies constant elastic constant elasticity alright. +Now to prove that result we just note again the elasticity formula D Q D P so if we differentiate that expression on the demand curve we'll have we'll have D P D Q Okay, and that equals . +minus beta A Q to the minus beta minus one. +Right simply because we can rewrite this top expression as AQ to the minus beta. +Right so if we differentiate our demand function we get that alright, nothing that for our elasticity we want one over D P D Q okay, so our elasticity you could write as one over minus beta A Q to the minus beta plus one right, times our price quantity ratio which if we now just substitute in the price, so that we have got A Q to the minus beta, right over Q , right, that equals A Q to the minus beta minus one over minus beta A Q minus beta to the minus one right which cancels to give us minus one over beta. +Right, so our elasticity in this function, right, is simply minus one over beta, right. +Now if we note that beta is a constant then that implies that our elasticity is going to be a constant. +Right, so it doesn't matter where we are on this nonlinear demand curve, right, elasticity will always be the same. +and in empirical sorry and in in empirical work we tend to use these nonlinear demand functions simply because they have this nice property that they have constant elasticity, and it makes subsequent calculations considerably easier, and you may think in actual fact that linear demand curves are quite restrictive. +We may not expect consumer behaviour, right, to be the same at all prices and quantities basically but er, nevertheless, you will probably see more linear demand curves than nonlinear ones because they are somewhat simpler. +Right. +What I want to look at now, a new sub-heading, and it's the relationship,right, between total, average and marginal functions As you may be aware that economists are obsessed with the concept of the margin and there's a neat relationship a couple of relationships embedded, alright, er embedded in this relationship between total marginal and average functions that is applicable to all total marginal and average functions whether we whether we be looking at marginal cost, marginal revenue, marginal products, right, the same relationship will hold for all of them. +To explore what these relationships are let's just use the example of total product, right, so we will be looking at total product curves , right, T P Okay and lets assume that our total product right, is simply a function labour and capital. +Now in order to to look at this relationship between labour and capital and output total product simultaneously we need to draw a 3 D diagram, alright, but because my diagrams are bad enough in 2 D what we are going to do is we are going to constrain one of these factors, right, so what we will do is we will pick a level of ou a level of capital input , right, and we will see what happens to total product as we vary labour. +Right, so we are going to assume effectively that K is our fixed factor of production and L is our variable factor . +Okay. +right so if you er draw a make sure you have got at least half a page, right, you are going to be drawing two quite familiar diagrams , right, you er, first of all just draw a normal total product curve, what we are going to do, because we are looking at a fixed level of output, sorry fixed level of capital what we are going to be analysing is the relationships between the total product of labour, the average product of labour, and the marginal product of labour, right, for a given level of capital okay, so the total product curve just tells us what happens to output as we increase the level of our variable factor labour keeping capital fixed at some constant constant level +Right, so as we increase the labour ou er input by one unit the change in total product, right, is going to be given by the marginal product, right, so so quite simply the marginal products of labour. +As we change labour by one unit what's the effect on total product or output well that effect is measured by our marginal product. +As a result marginal product is simply a slope right, the slope of the total product labour function Okay,let's define average product of labour as simply total product of labour divided by the amount of labour we are actually using alright, an average product to be measured by slope of a cord, right, from the origin total product curve er to the particular point on the total product curve. +Right, so if we just the origin of the particular point on that curve the slope of that the origin to denote the average product of labour. +Let's just have a look at what happens as we increase the lab , the labour output. +First of all let's have a look at the relationship between total product and marginal product making a diagram we can see the total product rises up to L 3 units As a result that implies a marginal product positive throughout the range to O L 3 . +If we now look at what happens to total product between O and O L 1 units of labour and we can see total product rising at an increasing rate, right, which implies our marginal product positive but increases over that range O to L L 1 right, between the the range O L 1 and O L 3 , right, the total product is rising but at a decreasing rate a decreasing rate that implies that the marginal product is still positive, right, but falling . +There is a between L 1 and L 3 units of labour total product is rising but at a decreasing rate that therefore implies that a marginal product of labour between those two imput levels is positive but but falling notice that total product curve peaks at L 3 right, so it's maximum at L 3 units of labour of that curve at that particular point zero, therefore, the marginal product labour is zero . +If we add more labour beyond L L 3 units, the total product is falling the total product is falling and the slope of the curve is negative what's the slope of the curve it's the marginal product, therefore, the marginal product of labour is also negative beyond L 3 units of labour . +Let's now look at the relationship between total product and average product O K the slope of a ray from the origin , alright, along the curve rises all the way to L 2 units , right, so the slope of the cord, ray rather, the slope of ray from the origin rises, right, to O 2 sorry to O L 2 units of labour as a result the margin, sorry the average product of labour is also rising over that range . +At er L 2 units of labour the slope of the ray from the origin right, is tangent to our total product curve. +At L 2 the slope of a, the ray from the origin is actually tangent , I'm sorry, the the ray is actually tangent and therefore the slope of that ray is the same as the slope of the total product curve at that point. +As a result, marginal product which is the slope of the total product curve and average product must be the same at L 2 units of labour . +Beyond L 2 units of labour the slope of the ray from the origin on the total product curve starts to fall . +Right, as a result average products must fall beyond O L 2 units of labour . +Okay, it follows therefore that at L 2 units of labour the average product is at a maximum. +Right. +Rising prior to that, falling after therefore the average product is at a maximum for L 2 units of labour . +Okay, so that's what you learn in micro economics this year and which should be fairly familiar to you ask now is why that is the case. +Why do we get this, these relationships in particular, right, why does the marginal product curve intersect the average product curve at the average product curve's maximum? +This relationship isn't just common to product relationships it's the same in cost revenue relationships as well Okay, so so what that diagram is saying in symbolic terms is that if the slope of the ideal product of labour curve, right, if D L P D A P L by D L positive, then the marginal product of labour must be greater than the average product of labour . +Right, and if the slope of that average product curve, right is negative that implies the marginal product of labour is less than it's average product hence if the slope of the average product curve is zero that implies therefore the marginal product equals the average product of labour. +so let's show why that is why that is the case . +What we are going to do is differentiate the average product function the average product, right, is the quotient of total product right, and the the amount of labour actually used and as a result if you want to differentiate it you can use a quotient rule of differentiation. +Right, general notation, right, D Y D X equals V D U D X. V squared minus U D V D X all over +. +That's our quotient rule so let's apply that to this particular particular problem. +Right, what we are going to do is let's say that Y equals er total product labour X equals labour U, right, equals sorry Y is the average product let Y equal the average product of labour X labour input, U equals total product of labour, right, V er equals L as well Okay,, right, so differentiating the average product curve and average product function in respect to labour , alright, we get L times D T P right, by D L minus Q P L all over L squared . +Let's rewrite that slightly differently and just say l over L open brackets into D T P L over D L minus T P over L , alright, what's that in economic terms, well that's simply , right, marginal product of labour in the brackets, right, minus the average product of labour , okay, so if if the marginal product of labour here is greater than the average product right, the righthand side is going to be positive right, therefore, average product is going to be positive okay,the marginal product is greater than the average product ah change the slope of the average product curve is going to be er positive therefore average product itself is positive and rising let's write that down as the marginal product of labour is greater than the average product of labour that implies changing slope of the er average product curve right, is positive implying that average product is positive itself and rising Okay, if the marginal product of labour, right, is less than the average product right, that implies the slope of the average product curve is positive therefore the average product itself, right, is positive and falling sorry right, so we can rewrite that somewhat succinctly , using the following D A P L over D L, right, is greater than equal to or less than zero if D T P L over D L, right, is greater than, equal to, less than right T P L over L the average product . +Yep er well you read it just go along the top the line here, alright, the slope of the average product curve, right, will be positive, right, greater than zero if the marginal product, right, is greater than the average product, right, the slope of the average product curve will equal zero, right, if the marginal product equals the average product and the slope of the er the average product curve will be negative, right, if the marginal product is less than er average product +Okay,now that result holds, right, for all erm for all marginal relationships Okay, so if we are looking at a marginal marginal cost curve , right, we have got that's our marginal cost , that's our average cost we, we're intersecting here when in the case it is a minimum so marginal costs cuts through average costs at its minimum value we are looking at average revenue and marginal revenue average revenue function marginal revenue function This is our total revenue function and the same relationship is embodied there, but, notice that between the average and the average revenue and marginal revenue functions, right, don't intersect simply because we have got a linear relationship here right, average revenue is always above marginal revenue in this particular case. +Right, but, nevertheless, the same relationship is embodied in that righto, I think what we will do is er leave it there before we start partial derivatives. +See you next week. + +had her operation and that everything's going well, and I'm sure will take our best wishes to her, when er, he goes home after the meeting. +Well, this morning, er, you know all know Colin, there's er no need for me to spend a lot of time introducing him to you. +He's been here several times before, and er, we do look forward to having another interesting morning with you, and I understand that er, you're going to give us a musical morning, this morning, and er, +sing to us. +Not going to sing. +I promise not, well I might get carried away. +Alright, well. +It's all over to you then, Colin. +Thank you. +Welcome here. +Erm, I'm going to er talk to you this morning, and invite comments this morning, about Anthems of the Nations. +It's erm, a hand-book study from last year's hand-book, and erm, the reason I picked it, I think is is two-fold. +First, the first reason, er is entirely coincidental. +I was approached in this room about erm, twelve months ago, by Francis and Tricia erm, to ask if I would make a programme out for their group. +The gardeners group. +And I wrote down, that they were on a doing Anthems of the Nations. +When I asked them about it later, they said, oh no, we have no intention of doing Anthems of the Nations, perhaps you would like to do it for us. +So I was landed, hoist with my own petard, if you like. +Landed with that topic. +Having discovered that, I was then, in April of last year, in France, in Strasbourg, Strasbourg is Leicester's twin city in France, and as I was wondering through near to the cathedral in Strasbourg, I found a book a book-shop, a second- hand book shop. +Thumbed through some papers that they have got, in front of the shop, and found one set of erm, papers from nineteen thirty-six concerned the French National Anthem, and I thought that was a second amazing coincidence, er, and so I had to buy myself that that set of papers for about a pound. +And it really was quite interesting. +So what I propose to do this morning, is to talk erm, based on the notes from the hand-book about Anthems of the Nation, but to spend probably more time, talking about the French National Anthem, than about any others, because I know a little bit about it, and I have discovered even more. +No prizes then, for guessing that that was the British National Anthem, erm, God Save the King as it was, or was it originally God Save the Queen, it was King, er when you grew up +Yeah. +And then, then the Queen. +Erm, and it was interesting that there was always a tendency to stand up, wasn't there. +Yeah. +Yeah. +Because I think in the so called Good Old Days, you always did stand up when you heard the National Anthem played. +And I remember one or two who used to sit do , keep seated, you know, just to +As a sign, yes, yes, as a protest. +I don't know what it was. +As a protest. +Yes, as a protest against it. +Oh, I didn't think of it, you know +Mm. +You know when you when you, at the end of the film, you all done it, didn't you. +Yes, yes. +There was a time when you couldn't go through a week, perhaps couldn't even going through a day, without hearing the British National Anthem somewhere. +The radio, television, the radio used to close down, the television used to close down, if if you were up late enough at night, with that with that National Anthem. +And erm, the the radio was the same. +At the end of the film, or at the beginning, +Yeah. +At the beginning. +At the beginning. +Yes, yes, yes, it used, mm, it us . +But there was a time when +You always, you always have it at the beginning or any er programme. +Well, I think that started in the black-out, you know, because, we had to, if the sirens went, you know, we had to stop in the +Yeah, yeah, yes, yes. +so the +In the cinemas, I mean, it changed. +It ch it changed, didn't it, there was the there was a great change, that meant that people no longer heard it at at the same time. +They heard it at the beginning rather than at the end. +It then gradually disappeared. +The only time you hear it now, is on sporting occasions, I should think. +Yeah. +Yes, that's right. +Perhaps before the Queen's Speech on +Don't forget the Command Performance. +Yes, yeah, and Command Performances, and things like that. +Erm, I don't suppose anybody knows who wrote the Natio National Anthem. +Er, Rupert's scratching his head, he he thinks he knows. +before his time. +No, it isn't. +It's not known with any degree of certainty, erm, there was some indication by someone writing at the end of the last century, that it was written by someone in the time of the Queen Elizabeth, hence, perhaps it was God Save The Queen. +A man by the name, would you believe of Doctor John Bull. +Bull. +Now whether that's true or not, I don't know. +The writer of the words was possibly Henry Carey, Henry Carey and he was an English poet and composer and he wrote various erm, bits of erm music, words. +He wrote farces, he wrote burlesques, he wrote songs, and sometimes he wrote accompanying music for things going on on the stage, and apparently he also wrote Sally In Our Alley. +So if the story is correct, the writer of the music for the National Anthem is the same as the composer of the music for Sally In Our Alley. +Erm, originally is was sung in Latin, in the time of the Stuarts, and then, an er, after the exile of James the Second, and English version appeared. +I don't suppose you've ever heard it sung in Latin, I certainly haven't. +No. +I wouldn't even know where to begin to find that that. +Erm, +Probably sing it in the er, Catholic Church. +Yes, they probably would sing it in Latin in the Catholic, they they certainly use erm, Latin, and of course the words have changed depending whether it's a King or a Queen on the s on on on the throne, and from, it's gone from God Save Our Lord The King, to God Save Our Gracious Queen, and that came in, of course, in the time of Victoria, and then had to be brought in again, er, at the time of erm, Queen Elizabeth. +And what about some of the others. +What what about Anthems in general. +They haven't always been National Anthems, it's a relatively new thing, erm, I've mentioned Elizabethan times, about four hundred years ago. +Er, it probably came into fashion in the, something like the eighteenth century. +Before the eighteenth century, there wasn't perhaps a National Anthem, there wasn't such much of a er, national feeling, and so there was very little need to have a National Anthem. +So we're talking about the seventeen hundred, eighteen hundred, and it was very often known as a national song, and we had a national song, probably before any other country. +It wasn't known as a National Anthem, apparently until eighteen fifty-two. +So before that it was a National Song, and then it became a National Anthem, eighteen fifty-two, before your time, I should think, eighteen fifty-two. +Yes just a little bit. +Just a, just a little bit. +Just a little bit. +Just a little bit. +Just a little bit. +And then other countries started to get on the band-wagon and erm, find their own tunes. +Now the the tunes and the words vary enormously, and we shall have a chance to hear some of the tunes, certainly. +Sometimes the words are prayers. +Praying for the King, the Queen, or whatever they have. +Sometimes they express patriotic sentiments. +Sometimes they refer to battles, or revolts, or revolutions. +In the case of some of the, particularly recently made newly independent states, there is a whole idea of a revolutionary fervour. +This is perhaps, particularly true of some of the anthems for the, erm, the African States. +By contrast, some of the older countries, who got a history of calm and stability, they have Anthems which try to bring out the beauty of the country. +The natural beauty of the country. +And again, you will hear from the differing music, the way in which er the Anthems vary tremendously. +The variety, there is a great variety, also of musical styles. +God Save The King, or God Save the Queen, as it is now, is stately, rhythmic You could march to it, but I was corrected at a recent meeting, to say that people don't march to it, but you could if you wanted to. +So are marching songs, other have, er, others are very brisk marching songs. +You'd practically have to run to keep up with with some of them. +And some of the South American ones are rather more like opera, than National Anthems, erm, and of course, sometimes you come across er tunes, which are I suppose, Anthems. +Hardly National Anthems, because if you think of the Red Flag, which is the Communist Anthem, it's not National, because it spreads throughout the whole of the world, for those people who are erm, red incline, Communist incline, and if you think of Europe, whatever you think of Europe, there is a European Anthem. +You can't call it a National Anthem, because it covers the the twelve or more states of the European Union, as it is now, and do you know what that is, the the Anthem for the European Union. +No. +It's Beethoven's Ode to Joy, the the last movement of Beethoven's ninth symphony, erm,you'd know the tune, you'd recognise it, particularly if you had a better singer than me on as a accompaniment. +Encore. +But that's erm, thank you, thank you. +Erm, that was, erm, that was also, that that that is the Anthem for the European Union, as it's now called. +Erm, and not only do they have the red flag, there is the, erm, the Internationale for the the Communist Movement as well, and that apparently erm, was written by French workers in the nineteenth century, and it was used in Russia until nineteen forty-four. +So we have National Anthems, and those are the ones we're gonna concentrate on. +But there are sometimes, erm, Anthems that are, not just for one Nation, but for lots of Nations. +We've already mentioned that the British National Anthem was played a lot at one time. +This was, I suppose, the case, particularly during the war, the Second World War, er, where it was used to promote a National feeling. +And the , as I say, it must have been difficult to go through a day, between nineteen thirty-nine, and nineteen forty-five without hearing the National Anthem somewhere, somehow. +Er, nowadays, it's very rarely heard. +Erm, I can't remember when I last heard the British National Anthem, apart from the little excerpt I played just now. +When did you last hear the +Queen's Speech. +Birthday, Queen's Speech on Christmas Day, and er, it usually is the morning, isn't it, in the morning of the, er,Prin the Duke of Edinburgh's birthday, the Queen's birthday. +in June. +Yes, in June. +And sometimes on the Queen Mother's Day. +And on the Queen, on the on the Queen Mother's Birthday, yes, yes. +You wouldn't hear it if you went to Australia, would you, because they're trying to do away with that. +Quite typical at the end, isn't it. +Yeah. +Any idea where that on one is from. +Luxembourg +Not far away, Belgium, actually, Belgium. +That's it, of . +Yes, yes, it's Belgium, and you you may have heard again during sporting events, football matches, or or whatever it is. +Erm, written about a hundred and fifty years ago, during a struggle when Belgium was trying to regain it's er, it's independence from Holland. +Er, and it's sung in two languages, either in French, or in Flemish, because they speak them both over there. +Erm, and the the verse, goes something this. +Oh, noble Belgium, Well beloved Mother, to you our Hearts and Hands we give, to you our life lie, dedicating, together swearing you shall live, so again, it's a very patriotic feeling. +Erm, trying to engender that feeling in in the people who listen to it. +Any, oh, got th the beginning of the next one, any idea on that one? +It's not the Olympic one, is it. +No, it's not, but it's Canada. +Oh. +It's Canada, and you can almost hear,O Canada +Yeah. +If you if you happen to know where it fits it. +You can almost hear that one. +Erm, and has, we haven't got anybody here who has relatives living in Canada, erm, but once or twice I found that people recognised that because, they've been to Canada, visit relatives and they they they they therefore know and they they've heard. +I I I I thought I knew it, but I couldn't make out where I'd heard it. +Couldn't make, yes , yeah, +It's the Canadian one, the Canadian one. +This is a long long way away. +That in fact is the Chinese National Anthem. +I think we have to remember that that that these Anthems are all played by the same military band, and therefore they're played in a western style. +Perhaps if you heard it in different circumstances,su , you know, surrounded by Chinese people, then maybe you would begin to recognise it. +But erm, it's called the March of the Slaves, and it calls upon people, Arise you who Refuse to be Slaves. +There you are Rupert, right up your streets, isn't it. +You who refuse to be to be slaves. +This is. +The next one is a rather different one in style, not attempting to be so nationalistic, chauvinistic. +Not attempting to arouse er, peoples nationalistic feelings, but really looking at the country. +They will be standing up for quite a long time. +That's actually in two parts, as you heard, and the first part is very much trying to paint a picture, I think, trying to show how beautiful the country is, and we don't, I haven't told you yet which country it is. +And the second one is just that little bit more lively, try to arouse people. +Storms must pass, Sun will shine, Slovaks shall waken. +So it, it was, I suppose we have to say in the past tense, it was, the National Anthem of Czechoslovakia. +Now that they've split into two parts, erm, I don't know which one that belongs to. +Presumably the Slovakian parts, since it, it urges the Slovaks to awaken. +The next one, a little bit further north, this time, and it's the Danish National Anthem, and it says, something like, King Kristian Stood Beside the Loch He Masked in Mist and Smoke. +So that one really is telling a story, commemorating something in Danish history, when they were fighting for their for their freedom. +Dates probably from the eighteenth century, and apparently the Danes also used the music to our National Anthem at one stage. +So our National Anthem has been about a bit, particularly when you think that it came, probably came from, or was used in, erm a piece of music simply by Haydn. +So our National Anthem is not ours alone, it's been borrowed, stolen, used by a number of other people. +This is the next one, and you'll probably recognise this one. +Any prizes for that one? +Marseillaise. +That was the Marseillaise. +That's right, yes. +That's the French National Anthem. +Er,an and as I say, that was that was one of the reasons +Mm. +French National Anthem. +why I very much decided, I would er, investigate the whole business of National Anthems, because erm, that supposedly, was written in Strasbourg, not in Paris +Oh. +where you might think in the centre of France. +Erm, and it wasn't written in Marseilles, although the Marsei , the word Marseillaise, might suggest it was written in Marseilles. +Erm, it was called the Marseillaise, erm, because the volunteers from Marseilles came up from the south, and entered Paris and they were singing, erm, this one. +Anybody know the name of the person who wrote words and music according to the story, according to the legend, of the Marseillaise. +It's a man called Claude Joseph, was his christian name, Rouget de Lisle, Rouget de Lisle, probably never heard of him. +But er, but it it it the the if you look on the music, then you nearly always see his name, Rouget de Lisle. +But he, that's his surname really. +He was born in seventeen sixty, in the middle of France, really, erm, and he came from quite a large family. +They had seven children in all, did his his family, and the the popular expression at the time was that their their family didn't grow vegetables, they grew children. +Quite a successful family. +One of his brothers went into the Navy and became very successful and very high up in maritime administration, another went into the Army, and became a General. +He himself went into the Army, and erm, he was, he was born in a in a little village, and an article in the newspaper that I acquired in Strasbourg, said that he was born in this little village Lom le Soniere his was born to life, but in Strasbourg, where he wrote the National Anthem, he was born to immortality. +So his name stays forever in in in French people's minds. +He went through military school and he decided that at point that he would acquired an extra name. +So he was born de Lisle, and it was at the point that he was in military school that he added the Rouget, you know, like having a double barrelled name, +in in our in our erm country, the same was there, he tacked on this name, because he thought it would sound better for an army officer to have a name like Rouget de Lisle, instead of just de Lisle. +I think it was his grandfather's name that he'd er, he'd acquired at at that at that time. +He moved around France quite a lot, and not only was he a soldier, but he was writing comic operas and operas, and musicals and so on, and some of his work was pro produced and performed at the Opera Comic, in in France. +He was a tall, red-haired man, according to the descriptions he had one shoulder higher than the other, but that didn't seem to prevent him being attractive to women. +And we'll come back to that lat per perhaps it doesn't matter if you've got one shoulder higher, higher than the other. +Sorry about that. +Wh when he went into erm, when he went into Strasbourg with the garrison, he was very well received, because he was an officer, he was a gentleman, he was a musician, he was a composer, and he became very friendly with the Mayor of Strasbourg, whose name was Dietrich a very German sounding name, but don't forget that Strasbourg is very near to the German border. +The Mayor of Strasbourg, this man Dietrich, Baron, Dietrich, used to do a lot of entertaining, and very often erm, Rouget de Lisle would be invited to join the company. +Also present, very often, was the choir master of Strasbourg cathedral, whose name was Ignas Plielle so you had a number of musicians, and it was quite nice, because the wife of Baron Dietrich, was also interested in in music. +War was declared on Prussia and Austria on the twentieth of April, in seventeen ninety-two. +I bet you all knew that, didn't you. +twentieth of April, seventeen ninety-two, France declared war on Prussia and Austria. +It took four or five days for that news to reach Strasbourg. +Sign of the times, isn't it. +Two hundred years ago it took five days for news to get from Paris to Strasbourg. +Now it's done in less than a second. +Things have changed enormously, but it's, so it took sometime for them to get to know that they, the French were at war with, the Prussians and the Austrians, and don't forget that Strasbourg is only on the other side of the Rhine from Germany or whatever part of Germany er, it was at the time. +Er, not Prussia, that was a bit further away, but nonetheless, the threat was there. +Erm, there was a big reunion at the house of the Mayor of Strasbourg, Baron Dietrich, and they discussed a number of things, and one of the topics was raised was how coarse the Revolutionary songs were. +The Revolution had taken place, the Revolutioners had been singing songs, and one of the people present at this dinner, this banquet, said, what we need is something different, something new, we need a new war song. +And er, Baron Dietrich called across to Rouget de Lisle, come on, Captain, make us a war song. +And in spite of his own protestations that he couldn't begin to do it, everybody pressed him, including Madame Dietrich, including the Baron's wife, and she charmed him. +So. +Rouget returned that evening to his rather humble lodgings in the town. +In his mind he had obviously got fragments of things that he'd heard and seen that day, there was an expression that was being called out,To arm citizens, because war had been declared. +The Standard of War is Being Unfurled. +He probably also remembered that the Mayor's son was a commander of a ba battalion that was called Enfant de la +children of the fatherland, motherland. +So with these words in his mind, these snippets of words, he he he sat down. +He took up his violin. +Found a tune, he took up his pen and he wrote some words, and according to the story, according to the legend, the next day at day-break, he rushed off to the Mayor Dietrich, and was able to say, I have done it. +And Madame Dietrich describes this in a letter which she later wrote to her brother. +Her husband was a very good tenor, the Baron, he sang, and she wrote out the parts for piano, and various other instruments. +Now there is a famous picture somewhere in in France, I think kept in one of the museums in Strasbourg, which shows this scene, but it shows Rouget de Lisle actually singing it. +The truth according to the letter, is that it was the Baron, the Mayor of Strasbourg who sang this for the very first time. +There's been a lot of discussion about who actually wrote the erm, the National Anthem. +There is some thought that this other musician, the choir master of Strasbourg wrote it, or perhaps produced the music, to which erm, Rouget de Lisle produced the words. +Nobody really knows, it's been discussed, argued about for years and years and years. +Perhaps we shall never know. +It's rather nice to think that it happened in that way, that it was done overnight. +Rouget de Lisle had a very unfortunate end to his life, because erm, he was, he had a good position, but he lost it. +Erm, Dietrich the Mayor had to flee the country. +He fled to Switzerland, he then returned. +He was captured, and you know what the French do. +He had his head cut off, he was guillotined. +Erm, Rouget, as I say, lost his position as a Captain, he was arrested, he was imprisoned. +He became friendly with Napoleon Bonaparte, and he became friendly with Josephine. +Now don't forget, that I said, that in spite of the fact that he'd got one shoulder higher than the other, he was very attractive to women, and there is running through this story, the suggestion that maybe he was too friendly with Josephine. +She was the one who kept saying, not tonight, wasn't she? +Or they said it to her, I don't know. +Erm, and perhaps because he was becoming too friendly with Josephine, he was sent to Spain by Bonaparte, but then he fell out with Bonaparte, and Bonaparte fell out with him, and he was put under surveillance by the erm, the President, and erm, it makes you wonder what really went wrong. +Rouget de Lisle never married. +Perhaps he had fallen in love with someone, who knows who it might be, but he never married. +He lived out in the country for a number of years, lived in poverty, erm, he thought about and he wrote about suicide. +He had a miserable life, he came to Paris and led a further miserable life. +And this was the man who wrote their National Anthem. +Finally in eighteen thirty, there was yet another revolution in France, and that brought him a a ray of hope. +He was finally given a pension, but by that time he was old, he was half paralysed, and he was nearly blind, and he died in eighteen thirty-six, only six years after he'd received this recognition and this pension. +And he was, he had an unfortunate death, because he he he his body was buried in the little churchyard near to the village where he had been brought up, and he'd no sooner been buried, than they decided to run a road through, or, erm, something, so his body had to be unearthed and moved somewhere else, and it wasn't until nineteen sixteen, that the body erm, was taken out and was taken to Paris, and restored in the er, where so many other famous people erm, do have their tombs and their remembrances. +So that's the story. +A rather sad story in a way, about a man who, for a very short time, achieved fame in Strasbourg because he he wrote the Marseillaise, which we all recognised, didn't we? +Let's let's hear the next one. +Know, that one, don't you. +Yeah. +Deutschelands. +That's Deutschelands +That's the, that's the German National Anthem, it's Deutscheland , Germany Above All. +I think you have to remember that the next line begins, If, so it's not just a pro it is, it is a nationalistic song, but it's not just a proclamation that they will be, erm, +superb, superior. +It's If. +There is a condition attached to it. +Erm, apparently the first tune they used to those words, was a tune, which I've not been able to find, which came from Britain. +Er, and eventually they took that tune from a melody from a Haydn's string quartet. +And of course, it's also a hymn tune, isn't it. +Yeah. +Yeah. +Erm, +very often used, it's the old hundred, is it. +Yeah, it's the erm, the one Glorious Things of Thee are Spoken. +It's city of my God, that's it. +Erm, like this country Germany has, not only a National Anthem, but it has various songs that are also nationalistic. +Erm, we would think of others, wouldn't we, not only do we have our own National Anthem, but we have other songs that that arouses from time to time. +Land of Hope and Glory, is one that almost is a substitute for +Yeah. +The National Anthem, and the Germans also have various other ones, erm, there is one which is very well known, called the Watch on the Rhine, bearing in mind that the Rhine for much of its length is the border between Germany and the rest of the world. +Erm, certainly between Germany and France. +Erm, so that is the one that used to be used, and to some extent is now used. +There was a time when they were only allowed to sing the last verse, not the first verse, because of this er very nationalistic erm, attitude that it portrayed. +Yes, Dutch, yes,no not as I say, not far away, that was Deut the first the first one we heard was Deutscheland, and that was the Dutch one, that's the Netherlands one, erm, written a long time ago, written in the sixteenth century, written as a piece of music, erm, the tune, apparently very very old indeed, erm, and Mozart took the tune, and made variations on it, which is perhaps why it sounds familiar, you've probably heard it somewhere else. +Erm, it was adopted when Wilhelmina became Queen in eighteen ninety-eight. +Adopted as their National Anthem, and the words mean something like, Let Him in Whose Veins Flows the Blood of the Netherlands Remains Free from a Foreigners Strain. +Again, very nationalistic, and, rather short, isn't it. +I think I'd rather stand to that one, than I would, of like standing to the Czechoslovakian one, which seemed to go on and on and on. +Erm, another tradi +Few, any dancers in the company. +Spanish. +Do you notice anything about that? +It's, in, it's it's in three, four time, it's a waltz time. +Mm. +You could waltz to it, +But it would be a funny one to march to, wouldn't it, although, you know, but it it it was certainly in three four time. +Yes. +The waltzing time. +It's it's it's er, it's Polish, it's Polish. +It's erm, a traditional song as I say, and erm, it was, erm, it was written, ah, way back in, just after the turn of the the century, eighteen hundred and something, eighteen hundred and five or six, something like that. +It's a l it's a lively tune. +It's a very lively tune, but it is +Considering Poland was really oppressed. +Yeah, it is, it is, it's a waltz. +It is a waltz. +Erm, so if you want to get up and have a dance, that's the one to to play to. +This is another, er, I think, very very traditional one. +Haven't heard of that one before, it's it's a Swe , Swedish Swedish National Anthem, and it's erm, it's it's something like, Though Ancient, Though Free, and Mountainous North, Though Silent, Though Joyest, Though Beautiful North. +So it's very much praising the landscape of the country. +Not the King. +Not the battles. +No. +Not the flags, but the countryside. +Erm, first sung apparently as the end of the last century, about eighteen ninety-four, erm, and they had at least three other Anthems in their time, including, at one stage, using the two, a pair, God Save the King, God Save the Queen. +So as I say, ours has been about a bit, it's been borrowed by various people. +But that that is the the Swedish one. +This one I'm sure you'll recognise. +Russia. +No. +Red Flag, ah. +No, no, no. +You're the wrong side of the world, altogether. +It's United States. +States. +The United States. +You know, I thought it was, but, it sounded more like +It's the Star Spangled Banner, the Star Spangled Banner, +That's it, forever. +yes. +They they also have My Country it is of Thee. +And the picture you sometimes have, well, certainly the one I have recently, is of President Clinton standing there,whe whi listening to whatever version they were playing, when he was in Russia. +Erm, with his hand across on his heart, because that's that's the the way that they do it. +Erm, it was written in eighteen fourteen, and the author, at the time, was watching the bombardment of Baltimore from a British ship on which he had been detained. +So there is some history, erm, to it. +But the melody, apparently, had been the song of a gentleman's music club. +So the words composed to fit the tune, that's already been going around in a, in a gentleman's music club. +Erm, it's it's a very interested one, isn't it. +And you, again, you, I'm sure you'd heard it before, but were difficult to say, is it, is it there. +Yeah. +Yeah +I wonder what you would make of this one. +I don't think you'll and I suppose I make no apologies for including it, because I think we are all very well aware of the terrible tragedy that is happening in in Yugoslavia It's not not an Anthem that I would have recognised, erm, I was fortunate to go to Yugoslavia on, I think, two occasions, in happier times, and it saddens me tremendously, to see, on the television, to hear on the radio, to read in the newspapers, just what has happened to what was emerging as, not only a very beautiful, but a very successful country. +I first went, I suppose in in something like the nineteen seventies, and I can remember in those days having some difficulty getting into the country. +Because it was a communist led country, erm, but I had, I was going to visit friends, er, and it it was, possible for us to get in. +Oh, we had to wait at the border, we had in advance to get visas, and when we got there, things were very simple but nonetheless, we were very well received, and the person that I was staying with, lived in a flat, a very simple flat, but nonetheless, a very pleasant flat. +I went back, not to see the same people, but I went back, erm, on a a family holiday. +I should think it was about ten, fifteen years later, and it was so easy to get into the country. +That had changed tremendously, so easy it was to get into the country, that I went in and out of the border about three times, because having got into Yugoslavia, I realized I had some Italian currency, so I drove out again, spent my Italian currency, and drove back again. +Er, er, and nobody seemed to bother then, the the place had opened up, it had become westernised, it was prosperous, it was green, er wherever you went you were very welcome, people tried to speak English, people tried to communicate. +That was in something like nineteen seventy, nineteen eighty something, the the the turn of the seventies, eighties. +Now look what had happened to the place, and I play you that because, maybe we shall never ever hear that again, because Yugoslavia cannot now exist as a State. +It must eventually be split up into, the Muslims, the Serbs, the Croats, and that, that is in fact very sad. +So I I propose +You were not singing, God Save the Person, it was God Save the Nation. +Nation. +Yes, yes, yes. +the interpretation +Because the King represented the Nation, +Yeah. +yes, yes. +yeah. +And al always on, the same, I think it is always the same school, er, Rupert. +Always on Armistice Day, on the eleventh of November, the erm, not only the Ki , the the, God Save The King, National Anthem, but also the Marseillaise was, because it was a French class weren't they, +Yeah. +we knew that, and we had to sing it in French. +Mm. +But what I meant was, we was always, going have those two. +Yes, yes, yeah. +Mm. +I don't we're proud of our country any more, are we? +We've, we've, we've run ourselves down far too long, and er I think this is true of us as individuals, +Yeah. +As well as being true of the country. +We,we we've gone through a stage where we've said, I'm not good enough, my families not good enough, my home's not, and my class isn't good, and my my town isn't good enough, erm, and so you go on from that, and you you eventually, but well, you know, what about England. +England's not worth very much, is it. +We we aren't, perhaps not the world-power that we used to be. +Be we've got a lot that we ought to be proud of. +Yeah. +Certainly got a lot. +Yeah, we we have run ourselves down, yeah, quite you're quite true. +Quite right. +You notice a difference, even when you go to Wales. +Where the +Oh yes. +there, +Yeah, yeah. +They they're off like a shot, aren't they. +Yeah. +with their National Anthem. +Yes, yes, yeah yes yeah, and of course they're all so wonder singers, aren't they, the Welsh. +Yes, oh yes. +Erm, you know. +I think they say it's the hills, don't they, that er +I don't know, I don't what it is, er, the, whether it's the hills or the water, but er, there's something, there's something that makes wonderful singers out of them. +Yeah, it's lovely. +They're not afraid to let themselves go. +Go. +No, they er, they're not inhibited. +Mm. +Whereas er, I'm afraid we English are inclined to do a bit of that. +Yes, yes yeah, I mean, I think if I if I were to say to you, shall we sing the National Anthem, we'd say, oh no, no, no. +No, don't want to do that. +I think it's because there's such a lot of mixed people here now. +Mm. +Er, that's what it is, we're not a true Brits, now. +We're not true Brits, we got to be like er, foreign people and er, we just seem to go their ways. +Yes, I think that, you know, I made the comment earlier that erm, we have changed in the way in which news is communicated, it takes seconds. +We've changed in the way in which we travel. +Yeah. +Years ago, if you wanted to go to,n now let's say, to to Poland. +It it would take you days upon days, in order to get there. +Now you can do it in a matter of hours, in an aeroplane. +Yes. +Yeah. +And so it is possible for people to come and live here, +That's right. +er, bring in their ways and their habits with them. +Erm, and it is just as possible, in theory, for us to go and live somewhere else. +Er, it is, it is very easy. +Some people are a bit more fussy, though, they what they are, aren't they. +Yes. +And that makes it. +Er, that they keep their own saying down there. +Yes, yes, yes +Not like us. +Yeah. +Any old Tom, Dick, and Harry can come. +Yeah, that's very true. +That's right. +Any other comments about Ma National Anthems and memories of hearing National Anthems. +When I was a girl, +When you were a girl, yes, yes. +Here we go. +now. +That was a long time ago. +Because I belonged to the Guides, and my er, Lieutenant, Captain, I don't what she was, I forget. +haven't yeah. +Came home, she came home with me, she came home with me, and I'd just learned to play the piano, and I played that, it was, we'd just come from Guides, you see, and I I was only young. +Aha. +Rupert. +And and I played that, +You were eleven. +Oh my God. +'cos I'd just learnt to play this, thought it was ever so clever, and she put her hands on me hands, and she said, no, no, you mustn't play that, not while we're in uniform. +I thought well that, I mean, that stuck in my mind ever since then. +Yes, yes, yes. +Oh, well, we used to salute when they played +Are yes, but you see, we were just standing there, and I was just showing off. +Oh. +She said, no, we don't play that. +Well that's that's that's rather strange isn't it, so you you, +Well, I thought so. +If you hadn't your uniform on, you could play it, but because you had your uniform on +I don't why +couldn't play it. +and I was so disappointed, because it was the only thing I could play. +Yes, oh yes. +I supp ag again, I think this, it it shows a very different attitude, it was as if +Oh, yes. +the National Anthem was something quite sacred, +That's right +erm, and erm, I don't know that I ever did this, but I never heard anybody heard anybody walking the street, whistling the National Anthem. +No. +No. +Because if you, if if you did, somebody would think it was wrong. +You could whistle a song, but you couldn't wish whistle the National Anthem. +Yeah, that's right, yeah. +It was, it was something quite sacred. +Something that you, perhaps kept in a box, almost, and brought out on certain occasions. +cinema everywhere, everybody stood up and stood still +Oh yeah. +Yes. +but now. +Some people used to go out +they just go out, walk out. +Yes, yes. +We never used to do that years ago. +Mm. +Mm. +Mm. +Mm. +How many times have you said that get out before National Anthem +Before the National Anthem yes, yes, yes. +You could get round that, if you went out during the singing of it. +Mm. +Mm. +You either got out before, or +at the beginning +because of those at the beginning. +I know, when we used to down to London to the London Scout Gang Show. +They always used to play the National Anthem before . +Before. +Yes, yes, yes. +It always seems appropriate to me to open, if you going to have a National Anthem at all, you should open with it, +Open with it. +Yeah. +Erm, and erm, and in a way, get it out of the way, but in a way register the fact that erm, you are observing, +Yeah. +the importance of the Nation, if not the importance of the monarchy. +Especially when you travel to London, I mean, it meant it late,co couldn they did it first, didn't they, so you got it in. +Mm. +And then you were away, yes. +Then you went to the Gang Show. +To the Gang Show rather. +Yes, yes, yes, yeah, yeah . +I wondered if they still did it at the pictures, 'cos it's years since I went to the pictures. +I have no, no, no, I don't, I I wouldn't think +I wouldn't think it's been played in a cinema for years. +I was in a cinema on whichever evening, Saturday evening, and they certainly didn't have that. +They had lots of advertisements, +Oh, yes. +be at the end, don't they. +Yeah, no. +Half of hour of advertisements. +Yeah. + +Has your group finished those sentences? +No. +Erm. +Yes. +Pat, has your group finished those sentences? +I've finished mine, but I don't know +Right. +Mark. +Yes, what, +Would you like to do number one. +Er, +I put in between the n and s on fisherman's. +Yeah. +Er, E s, e and s of cottages. +Yeah. +Er, and one between searchlights t and s. +T and s of searchlights, the n, the n and the s of fisherman's, the e and the s of cottage's, and the t and the s of searchlight's. +Put your hands up if you got it right. +Let that me a lesson to you. +Ben, number two. +serves you right. +Yeah, one between n and s of men's. +Shh. +One between n and s of men's. +And between n and s of children's, and d and s in ward's. +Right. +N and s and men's, n and s in children's and d and s in wards. +Put your hands up if you got that right. +Oh dear, it would erm +manage to confuse you utterly, +Yes, you did, so. +Erm, right. +Would you like to do number three. +Erm, after the s in books, erm, after the s in libraries and after the s in librarians. +Yeah, I think it's definitely got to be after the s in books, as it sounds as if there's more than one of them. +Libraries is obviously plural so it's got to go after the s. +And librarians depends on whether you think there's one or more than one, and it's not clear, in the sense as you say. +Did you take +hang on, could you do the same with fishermen's, could they not have an apostrophe after the s. +No. +Fishermen +more than one. +Men is clearly plural, isn't it. +So +So what about cottages. +Because when the word doesn't end in s, when the plural doesn't end in s, as it doesn't in men, women and children, and sheep. +You er, put an apostrophe and then you put an s on. +I see. +It's when the plural word doesn't end in s. +What about cottages. +Cottages. +Let's see +Put an apostrophe after the s, +So e apostrophe +After the s. +Yes. +'Cos there's more than one of them, isn't there. +That's what we did, that's what we did. +Oh, did I say that was wrong. +But you said that was wrong. +Oh, sorry, +Number one it should be erm, +After the s. +Yes, after the s, this is obvious, more than one cottage, sorry +What about, what about the children's. +What's that,plural isn't it. +That's apostrophe s. +Yes. +Yes, +Yeah, I'm with you. +yes, that's right. +Yeah. +Erm, right, who'd like to do the last one, Tracey. +Erm, both teachers, apostrophe between the r and the s of teachers. +Yeah. +apostrophe between the d and s of husband. +I wouldn't agree. +I wouldn't know. +I think it's +Go on what do you think. +I think er, it's apostrophe after the s of classes, after the s in teachers, and after, after the s in husbands and after the s in schools 'cos they're all plural plural. +Classes is isn't it. +Cla yes, classes yes, isdefinitely plural, isn't it, because the singular is C L A S S +And it's e apostrophe. +And it's more than one teacher, because it's +Helen, Helen hang on. +Classes, is a plural word that ends in s, so you put the apostrophe after the s. +Yeah. +Right Helen, plural word that ends in s. +The apostrophe goes after. +When the word, the words plural, that does not end in s, and there's just a minority of cases, then it's apostrophe followed by s. +Mm +Okay. +Got it. +Right, classes is definitely plural, so it's definitely got to go after the s, and therefore it sounds as if teachers is going to be plural, doesn't it. +'Cos there's more than one. +Sounds as if we're talking about more than one teacher. +more than one wife, anyway, can you. +Hopefully not. +Well, hang on a second, we're not talking about putting an apostrophe on wives are we, for goodness sake. +No. +Because they don't own anything. +So let's put an apostrophe on the s of teachers and then husbands is clearly plural because the teachers were plural, and we th , we talking in plurals, so after the s in husbands. +With school, erm, it depends on whether you're talking about, were they're both teachers in one school, in which case, if you understood that way, it's the apostrophe before the s, and if you understood it, er, teachers in several schools, then you'd have put to the apostrophe after s. +I should think it sounds as if they're both teaching in the same school, myself, +Yeah. +I I would have put the apostrophe between the l and the s, but erm, I'd be prepared to, I'd be persuaded that it wasn't crystal clear. +Okay. +Now the two little things in boxes at the bottom, just reiterates what I've said. +It's with an apostrophe is an abbreviation for it is, because you never, and I I think those three little rules there only apply only nouns have an apostrophe, pronouns never have an apostrophe and it's only nouns ending in s, have an apostrophe and it's only when they own the thing that follows, except when they, when they don't end with an s, but you know the exception of men's, women's, children's and sheep. +Er, are, exceptions. +Right, well I didn't expect it to take that long to the apostrophe. +Erm, you must be honest about this, er, is anybody feel clearer about these, the apostrophe, than they did half an hour ago. +Yes. +Would you be kind enough to just raise your hand in the air if you feel a little bit clearer. +You can be honest and put your hand in the air if you feel more confused than ever. +Stuart does. +No +But, I I don't really think I could make it any clearer, but you need to, perhaps take it home and go through it again, and think about it and see if you can understand it, you know, in the quiet of your own bedroom, plus is a very useful time to try and learn things. +If you turn over. +it was heart searching +Turn over. +This is just, I'm not going to through these exercises, this is an exercise on the apostrophe to show, not possession this time, but that letters have been left out of words. +I think you know all this. +You you you drop the letter and put the apostrophe where the letter would have been, had you not removed it. +So, all that you need to think, to remember things like, don't, is that it's do not, and you've got to put the apostrophe in where the letter's been missed. +So if you follow that, it shouldn't, shouldn't cause you a problem. +Erm, but the one thing to remember is when your writing a formal essay, in an exam situation, don't use the shortened form. +The only time you're likely to be using it, is, if your writing an essay, where you going to use conversation, to make it realistic, people do abbreviate in a conversation, or if you're asked to write in an informal way. +So those, the only, the only exceptions. +So, generally avoid using contractions in an exam essay, unless you're asked to it in an informal way. +Okay, that's the apostrophe. +The next sheet is on commas. +Commas Right, are you ready for quick gallop through commas. +Martin, are you ready +Good, people use commas much too often, and some they don't use them at all. +But especially when they put them at the end of a sentence where they should be putting a full stop. +There are some, however, sorry, there are, comma, however, comma, please note, some situations where commas are necessary if you're going to write clearly. +First they are used to show a pause, between parts of a sentence, which makes it for example, when you start off with a subordinate clause, after I'd cashed my Giro comma I went to the shops and bought some food, or, because of the derailment comma all the trains were running late. +technical, to think of it technically, it's when your sentence starts with a subordinate clause. +When it comes to the end of that subordinate clause, you need a comma to separate it from the main clause, which is then going to follow. +Another use of the comma, is on either side of a word or phrase which could be left out of a sentence. +For instance, my sister comma who works in a green grocers comma said she saw her with Kim last night. +So, the fact that who works in the green grocers is just a bit of additional information, it's not necessary for the the main part of the sentence, you can take it out and it's not going to take, make any difference to the construction or the meaning of the sentence, it's a bit of additional information. +Or, you will need comma, amongst other things comma, three bricks and a length of rope. +What you have to remember is that you need a pair of commas and not just one. +Some words are often used between commas like he comma, too comma, was embarrassed and this one in particularly, please, tomorrow comma, however comma, snows is expected, and don't try to use however as a conjunction, 'cos it isn't. +And it will, if you, at the beginning of the sentence, however, it's got a comma after it, before you go on to the rest of the sentence. +If you use it in the middle, it's got to have commas both sides of it. +Is it the same for therefore. +The same thing happens with therefore, and the same thing happens with nevertheless. +You also use commas between items in a list. +You bought three apples comma, a banana comma, a bicycle pump and a walking stick, and you don't need the comma when you use and. +So it's commas between the items on the list, except for the last two where you're using and. +Okay. +Got it. +Now try the sentences +and see if you can agree as a group, on where you're putting them, and don't be too influenced by people that might be wrong +But I have been up all night comma,too tired, but I was really homesick. +really there's one after night, but you don't need after, one after tired, just carry straight on. +But it's a normal +James, it must be your turn to +Since my operation I haven't looked back comma, although maybe because I can't move my leg. +Ah. +And erm, number three. +As I missed the train comma, I decided to catch the next one which was in an hour's time. +Has anyone got a comma after one. +Yeah. +Yeah. +I got, oh I sort of like to use two and then cross out the wrong one. +Going to write a little note to the examiner, aren't you. +Please examiner, please whichever was right. +I like that one. +Erm, I think I'd be inclined to put a comma after one, the next one, because it's a bit of additional information +train, +the train in an hour's time. +no train +Oh yes, as I, as I missed the train comma, I decided to catch the next one comma, +Yeah, but wouldn't that make it possible to take that out, and then it wouldn't make sense, 'cos it would say, as I missed the train which went in an hour's time if you put another comma, 'cos if you, if you put two commas you couldn't take it out. +Your main sentence,yo the main clause is, I decided to catch the next one. +Additional information really, is, as I had missed the train comma, but it's, er, you've got to have a comma after train, because it's following that rule that was given in the top left hand corner, after I cashed my Giro comma, because of the derailment comma, it's it's that rule, it's the application of that rule. +Well, I think you need one after +After subordinate +Do you need one after the next one, 'cos which sticks one, which +Well, without getting too technical about it, I think you ought to have a comma after one because in the erm,y you know, the erm, blurb they gave you on the left hand side, that would apply what you've learnt on the left hand side. +I see, right. +But, ask me another day, when I've got a bit more time. +There is a, an occasion when you wouldn't have a comma in front of that relative pronoun. +Yeah. +It depends whether you can take the information, or whether the information is the essential part and it's a bit of a fine line there, actually. +Yes, it is. +In number four, erm, I can't see anybody who hasn't done one, so erm, Martin, have the pleasure of doing this last one. +first comma, sitting never really understood which means +Right. +Er, definitely after evidence, and definitely after Right. +I'm not going to go through the erm, passage at the bottom, but I'd like you to have a go at it and will go over it on Friday. +Hang on, I haven't finished yet. +Turn over. +Today gallop very quickly through, people often use a comma instead of a full stop. +Which is what a lot of still do, Martin included. +You use a comma to show a pause in a sentence, but a full stop shows that a sentence has finished. +How do you know if you're at the end of a sentence. +It's what you've written a a complete idea in itself, and does it have a main verb. +If the answer to both questions is yes, then it's a sentence, put a full stop. +Okay, look at this one. +James. +Yesterday, I bought a new video comma, it was great. +Is wrong, because the comma is between two sentences. +Each, it's not a phrase, it's each clause is a sentence, because it's a complete idea. +Yesterday I bought a video. +End of idea. +Second idea. +It was great, and therefore you need a full stop between the two. +It's Stuart, instead of using a full stop between the two short sentences, you could use a conjunction to join them together, which would give you one sentence. +Yesterday I bought a new video and it was great. +Otherwise, you could use a pronoun as a joining word, so you could use a pronoun and use which. +Yesterday I bought a new video which was great. +Okay. +Normally, you would use which to join sentences about things and who or which to join sentences about people. +about conjunctions that you looked at on Friday. +Okay. +Some sentences, quick, quick, quick sort them out, please. +Put the full stops in where +Martin +Please return the cups to the counter full stop. +number four. +comma +yes, Helen, sorry, Helen. +There's no point in talking about it full stop. +All we do, all we do is argue full stop. +Can you put because. +Sorry. +Can you put because. +Because all we do is argue. +Yes, it, if you're being simple about it. +It just said put full stops where they are needed. +Th th the the advancement on the exercise is to make them one sentence by using, yes, you could use a conjunction if you were going to make it into one sentence. +Right then, last one, please. +Erm. +Working in the theatre isn't all fun full stop. +A lot of it's hard work. +It's +Ah. +Instead of, instead of using a full stop, you could use a conjunction. +There is another possibility that they haven't mentioned because the book hasn't come on to deal with it yet, but you should know what it is. +Is it the colon. +You could use the semicolon. +But what you mustn't use is the comma. +Alright. +Okay, we'll continue this keep these sheets. +Bring them to the next lesson. +Thank you very much. + +Can you pass them round please, one between two. +We're doing that. +O K. What I propose to do is I'm going to read this poem aloud and then we discuss it as a group +. +So I'll introduce this poem to you and we'll read it aloud. +Then we will discuss it er via the questions. +So we don't want more than one person speaking at once otherwise it won't be clear, the tape recording, O K. +This is by Ted Hughes, The Thought Fox. +I imagine this midnight moment's forest. +Something else is alive beside the clock's loneliness and this blank page where my fingers move. +Through the window I see no star. +Something more near though deeper within darkness is entering the loneliness. +Cold, delicately as the dark snow, a fox's nose touches twig, leaf. +Two eyes serve a movement that now and again now and now and now sets neat prints into the snow between trees and warily allaying shadows shadow lies by a stump in a hollow of a body that is bold to come across clearings, an eye, a widening, deepening greenness brilliantly concentratedly coming about its own business till with a sudden sharp hot stink of fox, it enters the dark hole of the head. +The window is starless still, the clock ticks +the page is printed. +Now what I want us to do is to look at these questions er because we're being tape recorded, I am not going to give you time to work on a questions +. +individually because +. +a small group discussion wouldn't come out. +Erm but we'll do the questions together as a class and I would like you to just speak one at a time, otherwise it will all get blurry. +We'll take it a bit gradually to begin with. +So the first question is, where do you imagine the poet to be at the beginning of the poem. +Whose going to answer that? who can answer that. +Dead silence Michelle where do you think the poet is? +Looking through a window. +He's looking through a window, erm any advance on that? +Lee, no, Elizabeth? +In his room writing. +In his room writing, yes. +Erm, what time of day do you think it is? +Night +Night time, at night. +What else is in the room? +Clock. +A clock, erm +A page. +A page a what? +plain a piece of paper. +plain a piece of paper, yes. +Anybody else in the room? +No . +No O K. So he's on his own in the room at night, erm and what do you think is outside the window? +A fox. +A fox, a forest. +. +No stars. +Erm so you think it's in the countryside anyway? +It doesn't have to be. +It doesn't have to be, why doesn't it have to be? +Go on, you might be right, go on. +Well it just doesn't have to be. +So you think it could be in the middle of London? +. +Yeah you get urban foxes. +you get still times in cities and stuff when it's quiet +A bit louder actually when you're speaking. +Might not pick up they probably want to analyse our English or something to see how it's . +Erm so erm yes it was +does . +I think you're making a valid point here. +Well it could all just be his imagination as well. +Yes. +Yeah. +Yes. +It doesn't have to be. +It doesn't have to be a fox out there, it doesn't have to be a forest. +Doesn't have to be in the countryside. +like his memory or his imagination that's alive. +wasn't . +Yes, that's quite nice. +So it's dreamlike what do you mean by that. +What's he doing then? +Well it's not very clear whether he's actually thinking or seeing it. +It's not clear whether he's actually thinking about a fox or seeing a fox or so, yes. +Good, you're getting on to good ideas now. +Erm, in fact Ted Hughes I think has largely lived in the countryside so it is quite likely that his house in which he sets this poem is in the countryside. +At one time he lived in Devon I think and he also has association with Yorkshire, so that is could be quite probably in the countryside but it doesn't have to be a forest, doesn't have to be a fox out there but he does actually say I imagine this midnight moment's forest. +Erm, is there any other reason in the poem and I'm going away from questions now but is there any other reason in the poem why erm why it, why he wouldn't see a forest or a fox out of the window? +Any reason given in the first couple of stanzas. +it's dark, there's no clouds in the, it's cloudy, there's no stars, so you wouldn't be able to see anything anyway. +So it's too dark to see anything at all in fact. +Through the window I see no star and he talks about the darkness, yes, good. +So if the forest is not something that he can see, if you go back to question two, how do you interpret this midnight moment's forest? +What do you think he means by that in the first line? +Could it be like just he has his eyes shut, he wants to going on in his head. +imagines a forest you think and of course there are real forests out there somewhere aren't there? +Isn't it I imagine this midnight moment's forest? +Yes, so. +that says it all doesn't it? +that's what? +That says it all. +He imagined the forest, +Yes. +yes. +So there's a real forest out there somewhere but perhaps, perhaps not just outside his window, perhaps ten miles away, you know. +Erm and he's imagining what's going on in it. +In fact it could be very significant that the first words of the poem are, I imagine, because what does the poet, what do any of us do, we sit down to write something. +We imagine, don't we? +You write an essay, you imagine in your head what you might be going to put in your essay. +Means you conjure up in your head. +So that's the starting point. +Erm, now we've got quite a lot out of that opening, so let's look at the rest of the first stanza. +Something else is alive beside the clock's loneliness and this blank page where my fingers move. +Erm and he goes on to describe it as something more near. +Now I I'm asking you a question too. +What do you think the something is? +This is something else, that is alive and I've suggested at least two answers are possible. +Erm Martin, what would you say something else alive is? +Erm fox innit. +You're, you're very sure of it when you say fox innit. +. So where is this fox? +Well it's outside isn't it. +it's either in his imagination or he can see it. +We've decided he can't see because it's dark. +. +But you can see the eyes twinkling in the dark. +Yeah. +You wouldn't be able to if they were . +It is a fox. +I +. +called a thought fox it's called imagination +I think it is a fox . +. +Yeah. +The fox is what? +The fox is him and the forest is like his life and everything going on around him. +It's part of his consciousness, yes, that's a nice idea. +So if something else is alive, it's like in his imagination. +Yeah. +Yes and what did he say +. +Probably just saw a shadow or something. +More like the shadow of his thoughts or something +Yes. +So it 's +he could be deliberately trying to write about his life and that's the way he sees it +as a fox. +No as him being really isolated, you know, in a dark forest or whatever, I don't know. +Yes. +So the fox could be an image of himself. +So I've suggested there are at least two answers possible for something else is alive. +Erm, Martin says it's a real fox out there. +Well it could be a real fox, when in fact if there is a forest out of his window at all, +. +he wouldn't have to see it, he could just know it's there but then why does he say, I imagine it +. +He doesn't. +Well if he knows it's there he can still imagine it but he ca you can know that +Yeah he could. +things are actually outside but you can still imagine them in your mind if you can't see them +but but then again if it's dark you're not going to be able to see those light footprints and whatever appearing and stuff +sh . +So all that is imagining, isn't it? +It's gotta be, if he said it's dark. +Yes. +something . +Well he doesn't even need to say anything at all actually you could just sit down, erm and start to write a poem about what he imagines. +Erm, I mean there's a forest outside our window but it's not visible is it? +There's a forest fifty miles off, it's outside our window because it's not in this room and to come a little nearer home ther there's a campus outside our window but we can't exactly see very much of it but we know it's there and it's got some birds in it, it's probably got some little insects in it and there's a woodpecker +Squirrels. +in it isn't there? +Squirrels, erm so we can't see any of those things but we can imagine them, can't we? +You can imagine the squirrels running up and down the trees without seeing them, so something else is alive. +Yes there is something outside his window, however near or far and it is alive but he doesn't have to be seeing it and on the other hand something is alive in the room because actually if you look at the context of that, something else is alive beside the clock's loneliness and the blank page where my fingers move. +If you confine yourself to inside the room where he's sitting very quiet and the only other +. +noise is the clock ticking. +What else is alive there, in that room which he's saying? +The darkness. +The darkness his imagination's alive. +Mm. +And what's his imagination going to be doing? +Creating the image of a fox. +Creating the image of a fox, yes and writing a poem. +So +. +if you like the germ of the idea of the poem is alive in his mind because he sits down at the page thinking I'm going to write a poem. +What is it going to be about? +Maybe it's going to be about a fox. +. +It can also be like reference to erm the poem coming alive +Yes. +as he's writing it +Do you want to tell me more about that? +Well just that the words go down on paper, they seem to come alive within his imagination and around the room. +They move round the room. +Erm do you know like sometimes on telly they do it. +Well he has someone saying that describing away and they say right they and just like jump off the page and start moving round the room . +I think this is the idea of the poem though actually when you get to the end of the poem this is what it's about so it's a good idea +. +So I think there's something that is alive, yes, although in, er on one level it is a fox or some other creature outside there. +It's his imagination and it's the poem that's coming alive. +Is that what you meant Lucy? +Yes. +The poem's coming alive, yes. +. +That's right, yes and actually I'll digress to tell you ssh that erm this poem is published in a book by Ted Hughes a book called Poetry in the Making and it comes from a chapter called Capturing Animals. +Now in this chapter, Capturing Animals he says that when he was young, before he ever started writing poems, he used to like animals, he used to like them dead as well as alive +. +Yeah. +Sh and he says +ssh +and he says that he used to used to trap them. +He used to trap animals and collect them and then one day instead of going out trapping animals he wrote this poem instead and ever afterwards he wrote poems instead of collecting animals. +trap them. +So he suddenly found that he preferred to write poems but what he's actually saying in that essay, is that he thinks poems are living things, just as animals are and that they're they're difficult to catch. +I mean what's what's the similarity between trying to catch a fox and trying to write a poem? +If you're going to sum it up in one word? +How easy is it to catch a fox? +It's not easy but that's because the fox is not supposed to be captured. +No, it's not easy to catch a fox is it? +Why aren't they supposed to be captured? +They're sly. +They're sly. +They're wild. +They're wild, aren't they? +So they don't come along and say, please catch me, and if you were trying to if you were trying to find a fox or a badger, what would be the- what would be the difficulty? +They'd be hiding down their hole. +They'd be hiding down their hole, wouldn't they? +Or in the darkness somewhere. +So they're what you call elusive, aren't they? +And capturing wild animals is difficult because they're elusive. +I think he's got a whole metaphor going in this poem between wild animals and things that exist freely and are difficult to find and poems which are things that exist and have their own life but they are also difficult to find. +In what sense, are poems elusive? +Elusive? +If you are trying to write one. +Only the right words to express the way you're feeling. +So it's difficult to put them down on paper? +Yes, cos like feelings and thoughts are hard to capture they're intricate and get them down +As Woolf said. +When they were looking at Woolf, erm wh the other group's a bit further on with Wolves than than you are but we were doing this morning about how Lily has difficulty painting her picture and erm Virginia Woolf says in her diary, I assure you all my novels are first rate before they were written. +It was actually writing them that was the difficulty. +I could see them, they were brilliant works of art in my imagination. +So poems are elusive because you get the idea that actually working out your idea so it comes down on paper and it looks like a good poem and it says what you want to say and it doesn't spoil the effect etcetera so you've really captured your poem. +Erm it's difficult isn't it? +I think that's what it means. +That poems are alive but they run away from you, you know and you have difficulty catching them like you have difficulty catching foxes. +Anyway let's get back to the poem. +So we've discovered quite a lot about it all really but erm in the second stanza he says,through the window I see no star. +Something more near though deeper within the darkness is entering the loneliness . +So Lucy what do you think is entering the loneliness? +At this point on your interpretation. +Erm just like the the images, rather than it just all like being in his imagination I think it all coming to life around him. +The images that he's going to use come to life. +Is that what writing a poem is partly? +Of the ideas coming alive for you? +depends what sort of poem it is, this is a very sort of image probing, sort of poem. +Yes. +Not all of them are. +This is more like, he's trying to describe a scene to you or pictures to you, whether, whereas you can get poems that are just like emotional poems. +. +Well that depends. +Yes. +What sort of poem is +Yes. +But I think in this one that's the idea of that. +To express a picture or an image that he's got. +Yes. +Do the rest of you agree with that? +He's making you a visual image of the fox, isn't he? +Only in the end it isn't an ordinary fox, it's a thought fox. +We'll have to see what that means in a minute. +Erm, have a look at the punctuation before we go on. +How many full stops are there in this poem? and where are they? +three and where are they? +one's in the first stanza and one in the last one. +Yes. +Where is the other one then? +One's in the first stanza and there's two in the last one. +Yeah. +So is that odd? +You've got the first stanza which is four lines, has got five lines has four lines can't see straight the first stanza has one sentence and it ends at the end of the stanza but then you have one, two, three, four, five more stanzas and you don't get a full stop until the last stanza half way through. +You have, you had twenty two lines or is it, I can't add up today. +You had eighteen lines. +. +You have eighteen lines without a full stop. +So you get a full stop at the end of four lines. +You get one after another eighteen lines and then one after another two. +Now is that odd? +yes. +What would you expect in a poem Lucy then? +Dunno, it just doesn't seem to be much erm pattern +So is there some reason, do you think, why you've got eighteen lines and no full stop? +What's he what's he describing in those eighteen lines? +Somebody can do poem please. +Er the fox. +Yes. +Maybe he just didn't like full stops +I don't think that's the answer +I don't mean like that. +I mean like, you know, maybe you just didn't . +Maybe it breaks up things. +when you're thinking about things, it all just comes quickly . +Now you can say it again more clearly please +When you're thinking, right, things come into your mind . +Erm, like they come really fast so you like just jot them down quickly erm without full stops +Yes I think, I think the absence of the full stop is done on purpose but I think the kind of things you were suggesting, the reasons behind it. +He's trying to say how to show how ideas come into your mind in a great rush and to co to convey their spontaneity. +Erm and what is it that's come into his mind in a great rush in this part of the poem +. +This image of a fox because it's erm moving so fast it's like really rapid +Yes. +and his own sort of vision of it as a creature. +It's moving quite fast +Yes. +and he wants to keep it going it. +Without breaking it, yes. +So it's in fact in those eighteen lines that he describes the fox and brings it to life in the poem. +In the images of the poem and he describes the fox as moving doesn't he. +Stanza three, the fox's nose touch twig leaf and its footprints are set into the snow. +It's actually walking. +So although he can't see this fox. +Although it's perhaps a totally imaginary fox, he's imagining the fox walking through the wood and coming towards his window. +Coming towards his house and he describes it in stages, bringing it to life all the time. +So it's a sense of continuous development, evolution of the animal which is, he wants continuity and that's why he hasn't put a full stop in. +Also if you look at the way that the fox is described. +What is the first thing we're told about it in the third stanza? +Its nose. +Its nose? +The fox's +Its nose, yes. +Yeah. +Now is it appropriate that we start with its nose? +Yeah, be like the first thing er that it sees +that you see. +First thing that you see. +Well it's the first thing that comes. +.. +So if they ever get, this is erm a line and the fox is walking along, the first thing that's gonna pass this light will be its nose. +That's right. +See what I mean. +Yeah, that's right. +So it it precedes the rest of it if you are looking at the front of the fox it's erm why is a nose important to a wild animal? +Sense of smell. +Sense of smell. +So if that and what I'm trying to say Lucy is I'm asking you serious questions. +It's how the fox is being brought to life in the poem. +A sense of smell is the first and primary thing for the animal because it gives it its sense of direction and it's very important and it goes gently cold, delicately as the dark snow. +It's moving very carefully because it doesn't want to be detected. +Now what's the next thing we get after the nose? +the eyes +The eyes. +And that's appropriate too, isn't it? +Because if you are actually thinking of it coming towards you head on +. +then the eyes would be something you'd also confront at the beginning but they're equally important for the fox actually walking aren't they? +Its nose, its eyes are the things with which it guides itself and then the walking is described, the footprints. +So the whole thing is coming to life a bit. +Yeah the detail's coming to life +As though you were doing a sketch and you were sketching details in gradually. +Lucy what were you going to say? +In the third stanza why is there all those that now and again, now and now, and now +That is what I was going to ask you +Alright, let's look at this now. +Just read this bit over again. +Two eyes serve a movement that now and again now and now and now sets neat prints into the snow between trees . +What does it stand for? +fox. +can't hear that +The actual movement of the fox. +stopping and starting. +So you can imagine it more yourself. +It's actually approaching you +Yeah. +isn't it? +Yes and also it's, it's one paw after another. +The footprints, now and now and now and maybe not continuously as you were saying. +Erm so the repetition is like the repetition of the prints in the snow. +Erm, so it's a way of bringing it alive. +It's almost mesmeric as well isn't it, this repetition of now, now, now between between the but as as you were saying, it's sketching all the details in so you, if you were sketching a fox, you know you begin somewhere and say you begin with the nose you've just got a little detail the nose and the eyes but eventually you've got to put the whole sketch in. +But it's not very delicate movement like a fox, it's more sort of jerky. +Well maybe that was the way I read it. +Maybe it could be read more delicately. +I mean it's not very graceful. +It's not the image I would think of . +Foxes are . +. +. +foxes are +I mean it's very erm harmonious sort of walk. +gliding +Well perhaps it could be read in more gliding fashion +now you see this punctuation thing here. +Erm, not only have you got no full stops but in this stanza when he's talking about the fox moving you've got no commas at the end of the lines. +Now what do you call that? +Anybody talk to you about that? +What do you call it when you don't have punctuation at the end of a line? +. +Nobody knows? +Well you call it a run-on line and you call it an enjambement line to give it the French term. +What's the difference when you have a line that doesn't stop at the end of the line? +we need . +So it creates continuity in flow, doesn't it? and because he hasn't got any full stops you see. +He doesn't even stop at the end of the stanza. +Stanza three and now, runs immediately into stanza four. +Set neat prints into the snow and the same with stanza four, are the body that is bold to come across clearings. +You can't stop between the stanzas, can you? +It's less usual to enjambe stanzas than it is to enjambe lines and it creates this continuous flow. +This speed that talking about but I think it corresponds to the movement of the fox. +The sense that it is all, with a kind of inevitability coming alive. +More involved vividly so, so again I think this punctuation is done deliberately to make it merge continuously +. +After the footprints, what do you then get in the description? +Erm, Laura, what comes after the footprints? +Erm the shadow. +Shadow of the body. +Yes, now this shows it must be his imagination, mustn't it? +Because at night with no stars and moon couldn't be any shadows, could there? +So why does he call it a shadow then? +Because it's sort of dark, his just to . +. +It's not tangible. +It's not tangible. +. +Lucy. +Any other reasons why it's a shadow? +Well it's shy isn't it, so it's got to try to keep away. +It's trying not to be seen in fact. +But nevertheless it's bold in its way. +The body bold to come across the clearings and at last the the fox is really there. +It's not just its nose, it's not just its footprints. +You can see the footprints without seeing the fox, can't you? +But there is the whole body in the clearing, the eye, a widening deepening greeness. +So you've really confronted him now +Is that still about the fox. +Well what else would it be, do you think? +Well it's just that I may be totally wrong but I just read it first when you read it first it's like its prey in the light if you see what I mean. +Now we've just heard about the fox and it's coming across into the clearing, then an eye widening deepening greenness and talks about it coming about his own business till a sudden sharp hot stink of fox enters the dark hole of the head. +So what which . +it's like +Sorry. +I was just envisaging it being like a rabbit or something. +Yes I see how you get the idea but what do the rest of you think of it? +Well you don't think of it obviously. +not quite finished. +Erm I suggest that it is the fox because we're told it has a sudden sharp hot stink the fox. +So it's all part of the same sentence that makes it come into the head at that point. +Now if the fox enters a hole but the hole that he enters is the head so what does that tell us about this fox? +It's an imaginary +It's an imaginary +It's an imaginary fox, yes and so when at the very end of the poem he says when he says the window is starless still the clock ticks the page is printed. +What's happened, what does he mean? +thoughts have stopped wandering +Thoughts stop wandering. +What's finished though? +The poem. +. +The poem, yes. +So he's done a kind of conjuring trick here. +He's written you a poem in which you might well think he was describing a fox outside his window but just at the point when the fox seems most real, it might be coming through the window or it might be going into its hole, he says that the hole that this fox lives in is his head. +It's an imaginary fox and he suddenly says, I've finished describing now, here's your poem. +The poem is what he was imagining. +So it's this idea of capturing animals, a poem is like a wild animal and if you really conjure it up carefully. + +winding? +Aha. +And what do you do in winding? +It's hard to ex oh it's, it's winding , it's hard to explain the machines, do you not get round and about +No. +to see them? +We haven't been round yet so +You'd really need to see them to I mean I couldn't explain it to you really. +Mhm. +Mhm. +They're automatic now you know, +Mhm. +well we put the wool on and that but +Mhm. +it winds automatic. +Yeah. +And cuts off. +You really need to see them to +Aye, so how long have you been in here? +Oh since this firm took over, well it was not B M K you know but it was taken over by the +Mhm. +the new man and that. +Mhm. +But I've been in there since the beginning. +Mhm, and has it changed a lot do you think? +No, not really, no. +Not really? +No. +The job changed, the machinery's changed? +No, just the same machine we had over on the other side, aye, it hasn't changed at all. +Mhm. +Erm I was going to ask you? +Er how did you get the job at first? +Was it somebody that you knew that worked in here? +No, not really. +That was a case, I worked in a hotel for years and years and it closed down with the new bypass and that, and just a girl beside me, she was coming for an interview, to the B M K and I came with her. +Mhm. +I'd have never been in. +Mhm, and when was that? +Oh +er sixteen year, +Mhm. +aye, it's about sixteen year. +You've been here all that time? +Mhm. +In the same job? +Mhm, mhm. +Do you enjoy it? +Oh yes, aha. +Do you have a lot of friends working in here? +Ah well, work friends, aye, +Mhm. +oh aye, they're all quite friendly . +And do you keep up with them after your work? +No, not really, no. +Not really? +No. +No. +I'm not really some of them do, the younger ones and that a bit. +Mhm. +Not really. +What's the kind of age of folk in your section? +Well I'm the oldest. +Er, fulltime, I mean the students here they don't count really. +Who's the youngest? +Oh it must be thirtyish. +I think Caroline's about the youngest. +Mhm. +Aye, she must be. +What else have I got here? +Oh, do you have any nicknames for each other? +No, not re no. +No? +No we don't, +No. +honestly. +No. +Not ones that you talk about anyway. +No no, I'm being honest, no. +Aha. +No. +I don't know about younger ones and that but no +Aha, +honest to God. +Mhm. +No nicknames. +Mhm. +I don't know what they say maybe behind your back or that but honestly I don't think, no +there's nobody really got a nickname in here. +Aha. +Mhm, have you any worked, worked in any other factories in town? +No never, no. +Just this one? +Mhm. +Mhm. +I'm not from the town. +Mhm. +Where is it you're from? +Oh right so you have to travel in? +Mhm. +On the bus? +Aha. +Mhm er there's something else I was going to ask you but . +Oh aha, within the sections is there, is there some sections you think that feel they're better than other sections because they've got like maybe more pay or they feel they've special? +Oh aye, oh aye, aye, we feel that. +And who's that do you think? +Any department. +Every department thinks they're better than the next one. +Oh better? +No no, oh well aye but you'll find out for yourself. +No wages and that I mean it does vary from section +Aha. +to section. +Aha. +And we feel we've the heaviest , not the biggest wage, kind of thing, you ken. +Aha. +But I suppose there are other jobs have more responsible in that so +Aha. +this is what happens. +Mhm, do you wear like different, can you tell by what the person's wearing, like do you wear different pinnies for different jobs? +No no, wear your overalls, just wear your own. +You cannot tell, aha. +Mhm. +And is it quite regular hours or do you work all over the time? +We work shifts. +Shifts you work, aha. +Just the winding that works the shifts. +And what hours is that? +Two till se , that's six to two, two to ten, and ten to six. +Mhm. +But that, we're the only one that do the shifts. +And how do you find that? +I like the more. +You'd rather have the +You get used to them. +Mhm. +time? +Oh the night shift's no bother. +I don't like the back shifts. +Do you think the place has changed much since the takeover? +I don't think it's changed at all really. +No. +Mm. +No. +No. +Er are you in a union? +Aha. +Mhm but it's not +What for I don't know. +Just for more money that's all. +Aha. +It's not recognized anyway. +Mhm, what one is it? +Carpet Union. +Carpet Union. +Mhm. +And it's not, not everybody's in a union? +No not everybody's in it, no. +I suppose the ones that came from the old factory, you know were kept on and that +Mhm, mhm. +but new . +So how many folk are working in your section? +Winders there's er five fourteen winders. +Fourteen. +Aha. +Was there any more er when you started working here? +There was only two when we started here. +Only two? +Me and another girl. +That was +all, you know when it was transferred there was only the two of us. +Aha. +And then they sent back for the you know the, the ones that had been there before. +But that worker she left, she got oh she wasn't married but she had a family. +Mhm. +And do you get any perks, like cheaper carpets or anything? +You're joking. +We get them cheaper outside. +anything? +No? +Right that's, that's all we wanted to know. +you got the name for + +Just before m w when my father and mother when they were courting before they they got married to with, yeah? +Yes fine, okay. +Right. +Off you go then. +Well my father was a farmer working at home with his mother who was a widow in . +And my mother, she was a dress maker or an apprentice dressmaker if that is the correct term. +And er they were courting and er my grandmother she was renting the the Park Front they called it in , Plas , in where the agricultural college is now. +Er were the name of the gentry who were living in in in the place. +And erm my father and another lad who was working out in the had to go Called Michael, had to go down every evening to pump water for the the animal. +There was no running water in the fields, only a shaft with a pump. +Then they had to go and pump water for the stock. +And the ambition of all the farm lads then was to get on good terms with the maids in in the Plas because after the gentry, they'd had their dinner, the maids could invite whoever they liked into the cellar and saloon for supper. +And erm my father and Michael had got to know the maids in in the Plas but Michael had grabbed the the the the good looking of the parlour maid and my father had to make do with the cook. +And well, it's not nice to say that a girl is fat these days, but she was all ample proportioned we'll put it like that. +And she was called Tiny. +But it wasn't to be the for the friendship with Tiny that my father got to have the rattling good supper that that they provided in in in the servants room. +And he'd be there once or twice and then on the Wednesday evening as was his custom, he went down to to the village, he had a date with my mother and there she was standing by the shop in the square and when she saw him coming down she turned and said,, she said and swirled her skirts round. +Go back to your Tiny, she said, and off she went home. +Well my father wasn't giving in so easy. +And then h instead of walking home from the chapel on Sunday night with my mother, he started walking home with her father. +My grandfather, Thomas , he was a a carpenter. +And the were they lived, it was on a a bit of a rise about the square in and he was a very keen gardener. +His curtain could be seen from the square and it was something worth looking at. +And that was his pride and joy. +And then my father became a very keen gardener and asking Thomas , How do you do th this and how do you do that? +Well my boy, said the old man, It would be easier if you were to come over you see, for me to show you, than try to tell you here. +So my father went over on the Monday evening and after such a a young man paid such interest in the garden and paying so much compliments, Well you can't go home without coming in for a cup of tea. +And that is how he he he got on good terms with my mother again. +In . +And he went duly they got married and very fortunately there was a little of twelve acres just in the bottom of the field adjoining . +Called . +And the that is where they started their married life. +My father working at home with his mother and farming this l twelve acre holding and my grandmother erm sub-letted the the park for him. +He was doing a bit of dealing as well. +We'll have a chat about the old dealers later. +Doing a bit of dealing and er keeping the stock he was buying and selling in this twelve acre park in . +Well it was quite a change for my mother from being a dressmaker to being a a well a smallholder's wife. +She had no idea about milking or anything, but she very very soon got used to it. +Erm but the most unfortunate thing that Old Edward the the old chap who owned the place he was living in part of the house and Old Jane , his housekeeper, my mother she could bake bread and wash, her mother had taught her that, but it was making butter that was the problem. +And old Jane said, Don't you worry my girl, er I'll make the butter for you. +And my mother, they were keeping six cows there after churning, old Jane made the butter and er taking it to to erm Mrs from who used to buy my grandmother's butter my my mother took her stock as well on the Thursday to market. +But the following Thursday Mrs said, Well I'm very sorry my dear, I can't accept your butter because last week's lot didn't keep. +Old Jane hadn't take enough trouble to make it proper and wash all the buttermilk out. +And it had gone bad. +Ah. +My mother she cried oh she did she cried all night. +After going to bed that night. +She was so insulted you know. +A young farmer's wife having her first batch of butter er rejected. +And erm She was determined that she would have a go her own, the following week. +And the following Wednesday, she just didn't know how to tell the old lady but it's odd how fate takes a hand occasionally. +The old lady was er opening the the the not a just what we call the chamber, er the the downstairs bedroom. +Opening the window, and somehow or other, the the sash it fell back, caught both her hands and jammed her finger. +And there she was crying and shouting in there. +Well my mother was very very sorry that the old lady had hurt her fingers but th on the other hand she was very very pleased that she couldn't make the butter. +And from then on, er there was never a hitch at all, my mother was considered to be one of the best butter maker i in the vicinity. +And as I had told you before on the previous er chat we had, how my father took over er when when I was two years old we moved up. +His mother gave up farming and he took things over. +And for the first five years of my life, I just led a very lonely life with only the my grandmother and my parents and the farm men. +And I was v the and my grandmother, they had got me hooked on horses then. +Not realizing that they were pr preaching about the glory that been. +And I would be always be with John in the stable and I got until I got into er some danger walking er underneath a horses legs and he'd he'd send me out banned me from the stable and shut the door. +Then for a day or so, I would be the cow man's mate. +When I was with the cattle I always wore my the cap on the side of my head. +That was way the co sign of a carter wearing his cap right on the side of his over his ear. +Was it? +But the cow man he wore his cap w with the peak over h er er the back of his head. +Back to front, cos he'd be carrying a lot of of hay on his back and that was to stop the hay seed, going down between it shirt and his skin. +And then I'd be wearing my cap back to front for a day or so. +Working with with the with the cow man, but I very soon got tired, I'd be begging to be allowed back into the stable because the horses were my first love. +Well when I was about five, one morning, my father fixed a cushion over the back bone of the bike. +That was the way we travelled then. +Practically nobody had a car in at the time. +And then er tie a cushion over the back bone of the bike and have me sitting er on on this cushion on the f bike in front of him. +He had we started out somewhere I had no idea where we were going, until we arrived at this big building with a high railing surrounding the yard and a crowd of children shouting and playing in the yard. +It was then that I realized that he was going to leave me on my own. +In this building. +And I had never been away from home because er too far from the village. +I had never had been playing with other children. +And when I realized this I started kicking and crying. +And he said, Well what would you prefer, go to school quietly or come with me over the hedge to have a spanking. +Well both are awkward, I said, but I will stand a light spanking if I can come home with you after. +But then, Miss the I learned later she was the infant's teacher, one of the the kindest, noblest er teachers imaginable, she came out. +Er never you mind the children, she said, you go home, I'll take charge of him. +And she got hold of me in her arms and carried me kicking and screaming into the school. +And I was very upset for the first day, then I started settling down. +But then Miss see couldn't move out of my sight, she was the only friend I had amongst all these strangers. +And I wouldn't leave her side. +and one day she said, Now then John I want to go to the other school to Mr , the schoolmaster to get a book. +Don't you move from your seat. +And she got about half a dozen of the strongest boys from standard one to stand guard at the door. +But as soon as she was out I dashed like a bulldozer through these other boys and dashed out into the bottom of the yard where there was a a certain little building in the bottom of the yard, and I opened the door, and there was Miss sitting on the throne. +I said to her, Ah I thought that you were going Why did you lie to me saying that you were going to get a book. +But eventually I settled down. +Erm to to the work and I kept er going you know like I I didn't dodge I didn't miss school. +And I suppose I was an average sort of of of pupil. +As we the time went on. +And when I went over to standard two,Miss was the name of the teacher with the the middle classes. +And she had a custom she we had to have a book called observation book. +None of us had any idea what observation meant, but we had to write down a sentence or something we had noticed on our way to school. +Which was a very good thing and what children of today miss when they're being whisked on a bus to school. +They have no chance to notice or see anything erm and make them observant and looking out for things. +In the spring when the f the daffodils and and the snowdrops started coming, and then there'd be bird's nests and all the different flowers, the farmers would start sowing, cultivating, mares would have foals, they had the harvest. +There were any amount of things you could write about in Summer. +But in the depth of Winter say, er from November up to after Christmas, there were very very few things you could notice and erm goodness knows how many times I fell back on he was one of the last persons to be churning with horsepower. +You know, a horse turning round and round in in what they called a horse power. +A long pole and it worked a lot of cog wheels and the shaft going through to the dairy to turn the churn. +And er I had to fall back very often just write, I saw Mr follow the horse in in in that that churning power. +I had to fall back on that many time. +And erm oh the games we used to have. +Whatever was going on in the village at the time when say the threshing machine was going round. +We played at threshing and er shifting the thresher from farm to farm we had been w watching with horses then. +And the the way was to get the heaviest boy he would the be the the threshing machine machine. +And the second boy would be the the shaft horse and the other children catching hold of each other 's jerseys pulling. +And we had seen the horses er er struggling and kicking Strange horses. +And then that would happen and very often I've seen the the the the shaft horse having kicked the thresher in his leg, had the two fighting. +Breaking the whole thing up. +And then we used to be playing top, we'd a top right round the village, see how far we could go. +And then playing a a hook, bowling a hook with a sort of a long hook to An iron hoop or hook it would about two foot six in circumference. +And see how far you go with that. +And then we'd be playing marbles. +The yard then it wasn't tar just a loose surface. +Then we're twist a hole with the heel of our boots, and everybody t trying to get their marbles into this hole and then whatever, if you could get your you whatever you won you could keep. +And er there would be a an Eisteddfod, a competitive meeting. +In in the village and then we used to have that at dinnertime. +There were no school dinners then of course. +All the children who were living far away, they brought a sandwich and a flask with them and eating in the desk in the classroom. +And we'd have this competitive meeting and there would be a chairing ceremony erm and it's amazing the r the tidy little poems that er some of the children made then you know, children under fourteen. +Some of them were a bit earthy wouldn't be very proper for me to repeat here. +And they wouldn't sound the same er in English, they were Welsh poems of course. +But it's amazing ho then we'd have a . +Where one lot would be the hare he'd start about ten minutes before. +This was during the the dinner hour. +And all the rest of use would be hounds chasing after him. +And maybe we'd be oh a long distance away from the school when we heard the schoolmaster blowing the whistle. +And we'd be pouting away and arriving about five minutes past one and then we'd be in for trouble then . +Because we were late for the afternoon lessons. +Erm I don't know if I told you before, I hated any sort of games. +No ball games or what we called drill which was erm P T you call it now. +But I had been er made a mon I think I told you this before, a monitor and I used to dodge all these sort of things and erm I used to go after I'd been putting the books out for the next lesson, I could go to the library and I used to sit down and read. +And I think that is why er er I acquired my taste for it, still I read a lot. +And that was the way it went until I was eleven. +And then there was a scholarship class then. +You had to go sit scholarship to go to the county school we call they called it. +And this was the the school master had a special class and he used to keep us in after school to have extra lessons. +But I just didn't want to go, it was to my grandmother and old John they used to say, Oh no, you don't want to school, you're supposed to stay here at home. +Working w with your father. +My mother was the only one was keen for me to have some sort of education. +But on the morning Saturday morning when the exam was being er sat in the county school in I was very very ill, too ill to get up until about eleven o'clock when it was too late. +And then I missed my chance and then I had only had the little primary school in until I was fourteen. +And well that's about the the erm well a rough story of my school days I think. +I was average with my lessons. +And not the worst and not the best, just about average. +But the I offended the schoolmaster very much not sitting this exam because erm his record depended upon how many pupils he could get to pass this exam. +And if he wanted a promotion to go to a better school. +Erm the inspectors used to come round and it was the number of pupils he managed to get into the county school that added a lot of points to his record. +And then he was very er well now I'm sorry after he'd put all the hard work with me, he was very very annoyed and disappointed that I had let him down so. +But we got over it and I finished my school at fourteen and came back to work at home. +At . +How did you how your m mother er come to terms with the idea that you weren't going to go to the county school? +She was very very disappointed. +But there was nothing she could do about it then and it was too late. +But she made certain that my sister who was six years younger, she made certain that she went to the county school. +She became a teacher later on. +And erm my my mother my father was neutral about the whole thing. +He didn't didn't take side one one way or another. +He was neutral. +But my mother was very keen and she was very disappointed because I had missed out. +I suppose if I had gone to school, my life would be completely changed. +But I have no regrets. +I left led I would say an uneventful life, but I've been very happy you know, ups and downs. +Never very rich. +And n no great heights and no great depths either. +D depths either. +Just sort of a a medium eventful life. +I have no regrets really. +Nothing nothing to worry about I was I was happy leading my own erm quiet little life you know. +And that is how I have got along for the last sixty six years. +When you became the +The yes at home. +Doing all the odd chores, helping a lot. +And the women in the house, peeling potatoes, getting the coal, carrying water. +Erm I used to carry a lot especially in in Summer. +Erm carry all the water from a shaft in the bottom of the field for all the the animals as well in in into the and all the pigs and the calves. +And er when I was Well before I was fourteen, and I believe that is why I stoop so much now. +My my s young bones they've been pulled down with carrying these er er all these pails of water. +How far did you How far aw w w away? +Well, down the bottom of the field you know, it was a a fairly big field. +And there was a a path which had been trodden back and forth down to to this er shaft with a pump on it. +We had to carry in in Winter we had the rainwater off the roofs which filled two brick cisterns for the livestock. +But in Summer those were dry we had to carry all the water then. +When the men were out working in the field, I was left in the yard erm I helped with feeding the milking the cows, feeding the calves and the pigs. +And helping the my mother. +When I l left school, my mother didn't have a maid in the house shortly after that. +I was doing the most of the peeling potatoes and getting the coal and the firewood. +And laying the table, washing up the dishes. +And churning and the carrying water for er for to for for the household and needed a lot of water when you were churning to to wash the the butter properly. +And when my mother was baking in a huge ovenware basin, then she'd have the the erm the flour and the the erm what do you call it that made it rise? +Yeast? +The yeast yes that's the word. +And then she put had some warm water and er she had to have it to the proper consistency and then she'd have a a bucket of water w standing by her side with a a jug. +And once she'd had the her arms in the dough, I had to stand by her side just to feed a drop of water gently. +And I remember the first time, I poured a whole jugful of water in. +Without realizing I was lucky that her hands were stuck in the dough she w she would have given me a thick ear you know for for for doing that . +And er anyway later on I used to er go out into the fields with the men. +Oh another job that the . +The men would be working out in the fields in the Summer. +Then they used to have their which was a cup of tea at ten in the morning and then having their tea at four. +Out in the fields. +And that was part of my work. +A big erm pitcher full of tea and then a basket tied on my back with the sandwiches and and the cake of scone my mother used to back more often. +And another basket in my hand with with the cups. +And I used to to carry out their meals to the men, and they used to be eating out in the field then. +And the dogs would be sitting, staring up in their faces. +They used to throw an odd crust to to the dogs. +And er that was the way. +That was my my life. +Until later on. +I became a horseman myself. +And we had another . +W w w when did a person or when did you stop being stop being a ? +Well when I was about sixteen say. +And then w that was when I were big enough in in in the hay and the corn harvest to er be in charge of the carts. +Be able to make a load and strong enough to pitch it into the stack, that was the problem. +And making a load of hay especially, you had to work it, roll every pitchfork you had, roll it and set it properly so that you knew as you now then you must have numbers on them so you know how to unravel that lot. +Every erm pitchfork must come out one You can't start fighting and and pulling it against the grain otherwise you you would be in trouble. +So every pitchfork used to come out er one after another as if you had numbers on them you know. +Came out in layers. +As it wasn't so heavy but that was an art, making the load. +So that's and you said, if you erm don't er sweat a little in making the load, you will sweat a tremendous amount when you were busy pitching it into the into the stack. +S so was that was that considered to be particularly skilful then? +Oh it was it was yes, some people were considered to be very very good at building a load. +They said it was like a box you know, and they could up to tremendous heights, putting I don't know how many layers. +When we first started, erm erm only a tiny amount just er sort of an untidy lump on the centre. +Er of the ca There were there was a a frame which stretched out the carts. +Bigger on the bo you know the the of course. +And then y when you came into the stockyard with a Caw, Caw,li like a a crow saying it was just something like a crow's nest. +just an untidy lump. +That was how they used to insult someone who had a and untidy load you know. +And er that hurt and that made you much more determined to improve and be able to make a proper load as quickly as possible. +W At this time,w w would you be having help from other farms? +Yes, yes and you used to do a lot of sharing er one f u farms helping each other. +That was quite common in those days. +Er w w w well common. +W w would people go out of their way to seek to find someone who was particularly skilled and with building a load and did they take +Well you couldn't er the men were hired on the farms for for a term of six months you know. +Yeah. +And some of those well like in every other trade were better than others. +Erm the erm the erm periodical men who used to come over harvest their job was to pitch it up in the field. +Er they they didn't go out with the cart, just with a regular who used to go out with the with the horses and carts. +Then you had a a spare man what you sent over the harvest, which you hired for a a month of occasionally they only used to come by the day. +There were some er farms say of fifteen or twenty acres which wasn't quite big enough to make a living. +And then these other men they used to be sort of a freelance, working a day here and a week there. +They used to do what little chores they had in the morning and then again after their wives did most of it. +And then they did the the heavy work erm in the in the morning and in the evening. +And they weres those were like er a freel we called them freemen. +And n not hired in one farm for six months. +And mostly those were er married men who had a small place of their own which wasn't quite big enough to to keep them full time. +And it was er er too big again for them to b become tied in one place for for a whole six months. +Were they er were they Would they be treated in any d different was say er er people who had their own farms would they +No. +No. +But er if they were just working for a single day, it was long day up till ten o'clock at night in a harvest you know. +And erm their their wages were a bit higher. +Th they they demanded a higher wage er for erm just because Er m a man wasn't too dear if it was a good er harvesting day, a man wasn't too dear at any price. +Cos without him you couldn't get your harvest in and tomorrow it might be raining. +So nobody grumbled at all about paying an extra er bit for for these men. +Cos it was good to have them when you were pushed when you had a lot of of work to do. +Of course the regular men they were kept on or when if it was a rainy day when they couldn't go out and just do some odd jobs in the building say, when it was a a rainy day. +So it was a sort of a give and take. +Some days er they worked longer hours and harder work and there were other days which er which erm they couldn't do anything much, just potter around in the buildings. +And erm but with a man coming in over the harvest, they were working hard and long hours every day and they demanded and they deserved a higher wage. +Was there any sort of understanding that part of the wages would be pain in food, anything like that? +Oh the food was included. +Nobody er erm or it was nobody thought about it li that was taken for granted. +N nowadays I hear erm or the lads who have been they go out They've been working with contractor and they say how different it is when your mother was alive, everybody who came here they they used to join us for their dinner. +You know the the the odd men. +But now we go around farms, nobody ever ask us if we want a cup of tea that's gone out of out of practice now. +And er very few men live in and er nobody er think of offering them a meal. +they've got to carry their own food. +You know contractor's men. +but in those days it was n nobody thought i you know it was the done thing. +Nobody thought of anything it was just everybody coming in for their meals. +Oh a great help to sandwiches and a sit down meal at dinner at table with the family, it was far better than a dry sandwich eaten in the barn. +Er can you ever remember any what might be called, failed harvests or d d difficult harvests? +Oh yes yes. +Yes. +Erm remember the hay we would be turning it w with pitchforks you know, and erm not a well goo drying day but you had to risk turning it and hoping that it'd be dry but er it would be raining again the following day. +Yes I've seen hay spoilt but you had to make do with it. +You couldn't do anything else. +And I've seen the corn harvest again, the the sheaves growing green out it stook. +The the the the grain sprouting. +And the sheaves getting stuck together er sprouting and getting stuck yes. +I've seen that happen too. +And I remember hearing a story, er erm it was just they'd got an old farmer he had a field of hay, just ready to cart and just as they were getting the horses, it came down to to rain and they were all sheltering in the barn, and the said, More rain, more rest. +What did you say? said the old farmer. +More rain, more grass, said the little fella. +Quick thinking. +Yes. +Yes. +Yes. +And another job we had to do erm especially on a rainy day, ready for the worst. +Er we had no hay barn then, then you had to thatch the the stacks. +And you had to make what we called straw . +Well er you could see the One erm wooden erm turner on the Winter there now. +You see that n what n erm You you see it out the window there. +Erm oh yes here it is . +Yeah, that. +Then we used to have two of those. +A clamp like a +Y yes. +Used to have two and er had a a bit of a rope round middle and two then There'd be two men sitting in one end of the cow shed. +You'd ha you'd have it fixed two of them fixed like this on a a bit of a erm er straw rope. +Yes. +There were two of them. +Then be backing and turning it round like that. +Two of them like this. +And then there'd be two men in one end of the of a long cow shed. +They had the straw which had been er pulled out even previously. +And then they would be feeding the straw, making these straw ropes. +Two of them. +And then I as the would be turning round and round and backing right down the cow shed and the calf pen which was oh about sixteen yards length in all. +And then after they had reached the other end, erm one of the men would go and stand in the middle of the two and the and the other sitting down. +And we'd start I'd just turn with my right hand to join both ends of the rope and then we would be turning again. +And the m th chap in sitting in the top, he'd be turning round and the other one would be walking down slowly backwards er grabbing a rope wi to to join the two to make it into a a double rope. +To to to put over the stacks. +Ah. +How would you start them off them,straw ? +We Jus Ha a length of them, put it around this thing like that, and then when you started twisting, it would have a They'd be feeding more That was a quite an art again, feeding more and more straw into it you know, as I backed along. +And then twisting it round and round. +It was an art to give just the right amount and that it wouldn't break. +And I remember we had two men once, one used to keep his hand very very tight, squeeze it hard and the other used to make a very big, loose, untidy, whiskery sort of a rope. +Well to keep his rope tight, I had to pull on the other, and the other chap would jerk me back. +Don't pull, he said. +Then I was going slower to suit his Well the other fella his rope would be dragging on the ground then you know, it was difficult to to to get the two to cooperate together. +That was a a job on a rainy day. +And then I used to the to erm coil them round. +There'd be a big pile of them ready for erm for thatching the stacks. +And then how would you do that then? +Well after you know the the stack would be a bit untidy straight after and after it had cooled. +It used to heat so then you had to give it time to cool and settle down. +Then you'd be plucking the sides to make it tidy and carrying it to make a round top sort of a roof on it. +Then you would have a a thick layer of straw right along the ridge. +And then my father would be standing on on top and throwing one of these er straw ropes up then he'd let er an er end down on both sides. +Then we had a a little wooden rake, the length of the head was a yard. +Then we used to measure with that, between each rope and then, one of use each side of the stack, we'd pull hard and pull a handful of hay from the and twist it round and this handful of hay. +And then when he was thatching, you would start on one end and erm putting er f pushing the the the st the thatch into the stack. +And then you'd have a length of erm either you made little thinner straw ropes or erm what we called er it was a sort of a coconut twine. +Erm that again had been rolled into balls and then he'd have erm about a dozen sticks which which held these balls and stuck them in then after he'd he'd erm er thatched one erm length, one row, he'd pull the string over and attach it to to the the thick s er rope that was er going over the stack. +And that from one end to the other. +And then there was these these thick er straw ropes going over and then there were the other which were going sideways along the roof to hold the thatch down. +And how long w would he take t t t to thatch on of those then? +Well it depended on the length. +You know a fairly long stack could take a couple of days. +And they did look really good when when they had been finished. +And erm not a drop of water would get in. +No? +No. +It would be b because the straw, the thatch had been pulled all straight it would flowing down, and then they used to er they used to th throw it over, it would be throwing the water away from the stack had been built like an egg you know. +Bulging out from the base, bulging out and then coming back again. +You know it was shaped just like an egg. +And then that'd be throwing all the water away, it w it wouldn't soak in. +And it was important, the way they built a stack. +They used you know th in different layers. +Then they used to put a thick layer round the sides to start with, then they would fill in the middle and keep that always stronger so that each layer er it curved. +So that it would if it were were just like a trough. +It would draw the water in but since there was much more more hay on in the inside, than the out, it er er it curved and then it wouldn't er erm absorb any water at all. +if you didn't put enough middle in it, it would sort of sink then, then it would be drawing the water in +Oh I see . +and it would spoil. +Did you w +Y yeah that that if there was a depression in the centre. +But after they'd put the the outer layer and then they used to tread and walk hard and tread the middle down. +Did they? +So it would be hard and solid. +Mm. +And then when you were cutting it in the Winter, you could see the the the layers you know. +In a sort of a a a a half shaped in the stack, you could see every layer, the way it had been built. +That was the art of a good stack builder again. +Was there ever any danger of those catching fire? +Oh yes, it you carried it too green. +If you carried it too green, erm I can't remember that happening to our but I've heard of some people, having to cut a shaft down into the stack you know. +We always used to push a long wire in to see how er every stack used to heat a little but er er touchwood I've never er never saw a stack heat that badly. +But er there was a time, they got so If you had carried it too green, erm you er it could catch fire. +And on the other hand, if you carried wet, well it would go mouldy then. +And and stink and it would be all clamped together you know. +And a lot of dust in it which was very very unhealthy. +That was why a lot of of the old men used to get farmer's lung then, feeding this stuff in the Winter. +And nobody knew anything about spores or farmer's lung or an Everybody are very conscious and they wear masks when they're feeding hay now. +To stop them breathing these er spores which can affect their lungs and cause farmer's lung. +Was there ever any time when you just had to accept the fact that the hay would have to be carried in wet? +B because of the +Well erm you kept it out as long as possible but the weather spoilt it and the more you turned it, the bla blacker it came. +And all the goodness was being washed out of it. +No er eventually you would get it dry of course. +It was better to let it rot out on the field then go to the trouble to carry it wet because it would only rot or become mouldy and absolutely useless. +And then eventually you would get it er dry enough. +But then when you cut that in the Winter, it would be black and there wouldn't be any any any er er feed value, any sort of nourishment at all in it. +It had all been washed out. +When you came in the Winter, to gain access to the stack, +Yes? +how would you how would you do it ? +Get at it? +Yes. +Well you used to took er take one length bet from one s er erm er straw up to the other, that was about a yard. +Then you had a very sharp knife, er and you used to cut down half the what we called the face of the stack, you know, half the width of it. +To start with. +Then cut that into into er chunks again. +Those again would be about a yard wide and a yard deep, then you had a a big er wire with a loop on one end with a sharp point. +And they used to push this through the amount w which you had cut. +And erm er grab this wire. +Have one foot on a ladder or the other stack stuck into the f into the into the erm face of stack and then you would struggle and work yourself underneath what w we called it the trinkling. +I suppose you would call it a truss in English. +And carry it loose into the the cow shed or into the sheds for the out-wintering cattle. +Or into the barn for chaffing for the horses. +Always made certain that the horses had the best hay. +Yes? +Yes. +The the the seeds hay, the first crop after after er a filed had been reseeded, the first crop you grew, that was reserved for the horses. +And then the cow man would be grumbling, maybe he had some second class hay for cattle. +And then he'd be grumbling, Why is the the horseman getting all the best stuff. +Why can't I have My my horses and my cattle you know. +Well the men considered their stock as their own then. +And looked after them and er after them and took pride i i in to have them in the best condition. +Oh they were not the br bosses' stock, they they they were their stock. +My cattle and my horses. +And the carter used to steal a lot of oats for for the the the the gaffer used to give him a ration for a week, and the granary would be lo locked. +And many were the tricks that the carters They used to get on the right side of the maid and get her to make an impression of the key on a block o of soap. +Then he'd take it to someone who could cut er a key er so he could open the up the granary the late in in the middle of the night, when everybody were asleep, and steal oats for the horses. +It was a it was a competition between the carters to get their horses into the best condition. +And then they used to go around on a Sunday morning from farm to farm to see how the other chaps are getting on and to say how much better their horses looked. +Compared to what they had i in the next farm you know . +Oh they were very very keen. +Keen competition. +W w why why was it that horses were were given pride of place over the cattle? +Well the horses had to work hard. +And er with the ploughing and the the cultivating, the sowing, the carting manure, carting in. +Er everything depending on the the the the work of the farm would come to a standstill if erm if the horses y if they were not kept in good condition, they wouldn't be strong enough to keep on going every day. +How would er how would the the the the carter's day begin and how would it progress and how would it end? +Well he'd be getting up about oh shortly after five in the morning, to er feed his horses, muck out the stable, and groom them. +And then he'd harness them, all except the bridle. +And erm shortly after seven, breakfast would be served. +He'd be in the house having his breakfast at seven so he'd be ready to take the horses out to start erm ploughing in Winter, at eight. +He'd be out most most days, ploughing. +And on a farm when there was only one team, if they wanted to have half a day, carting , aye well the carter was very very annoyed, he didn't like that job at all. +No? +But the fairly large farm, they used to have er two teams. +The second carter would be having Well the the first carter h the head carter had the best team of course, ploughing. +And then the second carter would be have another pair er carting er and carting manure. +And doing all the odd jobs round the farm. +So the actual So w why was it the fetching of etcetera, were thought of as being not so good ? +Well erm it was a sticky bus you know, er a field in Winter, it was just er bare soil, there was n no no grass on it and with the cart trudging back and forth, getting towards er a gateway, you would up to your knees in mud you know. +Erm and it was rather a a and heavy work, you had to have a team of horses to pull a load of suedes and you had to get them in Some you used to to carry out on and just drag them I mean s spread them out on the field er for the store cattle and the sheep. +Then you had to bring some into the yard which were put through the scrapper for the dairy cows and the young calves that were housed. +And then the the the store cattle they were in big open yards during the nights and then you used to let them out and eat these off er a grass field in Win i in in in in the daytime. +And you used to pull them e every four rows, making them into a row. +Er throw two and two together into the centre. +And the ones you brought into the yard to put through the scrapper, you cut the leaves off. +Of courses otherwise that would choke the scrapper. +But the one that were carted out on the fields, they were left with the leaves on because the cattle ate the leave as well. +W w w w what exactly was the scrapper? +Well er there were two they was a slicer and a scrapper. +It was a machine which you we had an oil engine in the barn. +There was the crusher for grinding the corn and the chaff cutter for chaffing the the the er hay or straw and there was the scrapper. +And it had plates inside er it used to cut the the the the into like big chips. +Oh right. +You had sort of a these eyes on on this big plate and it was turning round and it would be er churning them up you know, cutting them into like big er chip potato chip you know really. +Into these log thick chips. +And they were there was another er er slicer. +There were two blades on that, cutting them into into round slices about oh three quarters of an inch thick. +Cutting the that was for for the or the dairy cows. +And for the for the young calves you had to scrap them cos they couldn't eat the the the big big thick sl slices for the young calves. +How was the slicer powered then? +Oh erm with with a We had a er erm a a paraffin driven er a Crossley, a big oil engine with two big flywheels to it and a big piston like a bucket. +And then you you used to have a blow lamp to heat it up and after that you you erm put it on half compression and you were turning one of the big flywheels round until it it started and you had to keep the blowlamp on it. +That w w w pet th there was no petrol engines then. +And er eventually he came er an engine which er there were some which started on petrol and then you turned on to to paraffin but most of the work, just going on petrol, with a plug and a magneto. +You used to start that with a handle of course. +But er with the the the er the original the the first one, you had to heat it up with a blowlamp and you had to be very very careful to get it just to the right heat, before if you tried to start it too cold, it would kick back and if was too hot again, it just wouldn't start. +And that was er Oh it could break your arm you know, this huge big flywheel and you were taking hold of one of the of the of the spokes and turning it, if it were to backfire suddenly, it could break your arm. +And on on the other hand, if it started and took off suddenly, it could pull you, you might fall, right on er face into the flywheel again. +the safety officers of today, oh they'd have a blue fit if if they saw such things you know . +So th this this was a standing engine was it? +A standing bit on on a be big concrete base. +And then there would be a big, what we called a big shafting, going along the the side of the barn with pulleys on it. +And the erm the erm oil engine would be in a little shed outside the barn, and this shafting would be going through the wall. +and there'd be two pulleys on that, what we called a loose pulley. +And then you had a sort of a gadget what would slide the st there was strap coming from the pulley of the oil engine onto There was a loose pulley and there was a gadget, you could slide the strap onto the loose pulley, then that that was only just er turning loose of course, then you slid it back on the fixed and it's be turning all this shafting along the barn and then there were pulley sets on that and in direct line with crusher and chaff cutter and the scrapping machine you had a a strap form those. +Those were fixed as well. +Not in concrete of course but er you had erm They were wedged from the the erm Oh there was a a granary above barn, then from the rafters there, you had a big a bit of wood to to wedge them down solid. +So they wouldn't move. +So there was a sort of clutch, er this sort of sliding +Yea o Yes er there was no clutch, only something you could erm it was sort of a forked iron er over the strap, and then you had a a long plank in in above the chaff cutter, that was the most dangerous thing. +And then there was an iron bar going from this plank, through the wall, and you could Er then this sort of a a pronged thing that was over the strap, you you could s push it over with that pu pulling the the plank up here. +It pushed the strap, from one pulley to another, to the loose pulley or the f fixed pulley on the end of the long shafting. +Why was the the chaffer considered the most dangerous then? +Well, you had to feed it you know erm Then there was this erm er sort of a whipping in in there was a long trough leading to to the knife and then there were some cogwheels which pulled it into the knife. +And should you be careless enough to get your fingers caught in there, well that would be the end, it would draw you in and it would chop your fingers and your arm off in in half inch er bits you know. +And then er er but it was this was fixed right above, then you could, reach if you did feel you hand getting caught, you could slide it off and stop the p switch it onto loose pulley immediately. +So t +So so so there were at least three pieces of machinery that you could run? +Yes. +Yes. +The chaffer, the slicer and the scrapper. +Yeah and and and the corn crusher. +Oh. +For for for grinding the oats. +But there were some people you know on a smallish farm, they didn't have an oil engine, then they would have to turn the scrapper by hand. +And that was real hard work. +Er I saw how they used to do it in the after they'd finished work, used to be at it till till nine or ten that night. +And at one time, we used to feed what we called , for the used to chaff some of the the poorest hay and straw and spread it out in a thick layer about oh twelve of fifteen inches high on the floor of the of the barn. +And then, scrap the and throw that over. +Make it into a a thick layer, and then in a day of so, the juice from the would have soaked into this second class hay and er you used to mix it with a fork and load it into into bags. +And when you were carrying it on your back into the sheds for the cattle, the juice would be would be soaking through the bags. +Your back would be soaking wet. +It was not very healthy food erm we gave up doing that because er as you know cattle, they chew their cud. +Well they like to cut their food in their own length, and roll it into balls in their mouth and then they can er regurge it up and chew it. +Well with this stuff, they couldn't do that and then they they they their stomach used to get compacted the they they they couldn't er couldn't er get their cud up and caused a lot of stomach trouble. +So and they were tempted to eat erm poor stuff which they they wouldn't eat otherwise because there was the juice of the soaked to it. +And er that went out of fashion because of the two reasons and the most was because it's it was it would compact in their stomachs, they couldn't lift it up again. +Couldn't get their cud up. +Oh I see. +Yeah. +With er this machinery +Yes? +er were you ever a in a position to sort of to help other farmers er if they wanted their +F with the with the corn grinding. +Corn grinding slicing or +Oh no no just they were bringing the corn to put through the crusher. +Right. +Er not with the hay or with the . +But with with the corn er few people had Then they used to er to bring it over. +I I remember er that was the way my father used to get a a bit of pocket money to buy tobacco and things, a shilling a sack and the other farmers they used to find the the biggest sack they could find you know, and cram it with oats and then you used to be after supper. +I can remember waking up up about one o'clock in the morning, and to hear this old oil oil engine going, Puff puff, puff puff, puff puff. +And the and the whine of the crusher you know, the two plates rubbing against each other. +About one o'clock in the morning he'd be at it, getting it ready for the neighbours to collect the following day. +For a shilling a bag. +U maybe he'd be at it till about two o'clock in the morning. +So he would actually do the work himself? +Oh yes yes then after after the men had gone to bed of course. +I see. +And then th that was the his tobacco money. +And he was a heavy smoker, an ounce a day. +Although it only cost about eightpence ha'penny an ounce then. +Mm. +Were you involved in in operating this machinery? +Yes yes yes when when when I grew older, of course it took all the men When er you know one would b the the whole lot would be going together you know. +The erm the the crusher, the hopper was fixed underneath the granary and then there'd be a little trap-door in the floor or a granary, right above and you could er shovel the the corn, the oats down into. +Then that would sort of feed itself, but you had to have one man feeding the the scrapping machine and another man with a shovel, pulling away the the the the the the scrapped at the side and then you had to have another man feeding the long hay into the chaff cutter. +And another one moving the chaff away to one side. +So it took at least four men. +Wh when the fo the three machines were going together. +Needed at least four men to attend them. +So in fact, although they were there to save labour +Y y y y y +they in fact involved quite a lot +A lot of labour yes but that was far far better than to have to turn them by hand you know. +That was just slavery. +Mm. +How long would they all be going? +Over what period of time would th would you have all of them going together? +You mean, during the day or well it took about an hour say. +About two afternoons a week. +And how often how often does that go on throughout the year? +Throughout the Winter. +Yes. +Say w when we would used to bring the the stock in at the Menai Bridge Fair, that was the twenty fourth of October. +And then you started erm getting food for the chopping and grinding food for them. +And that went until they went out in late April. +From the end of April to from the end of October to the end of April say. +Mm. +Can d d d during the Winter, what sort of things would the carter b b b be up to then? +Well erm he t in the Spring after you had turned the cattle out, the the sheds you know, the cattle it would be full of manure. +Then after you had finished the sowing, that would be the next job. +Clearing out all the manure into the er big heap down into the fields where you wanted to spread them next Winter. +And then erm, as soon as the threshing was over, before you started ploughing, you'd have two carts going carting this m this manure out and + +I'd had er er er strange life really +Yes. +but very +Very interesting. +But what, +but what I find so interesting is because people talk nowadays as if it's only recently women have had jobs erm +Yes. +and careers +but you obviously had one +I've had one all my life +all your life +all my life, you see +Yes. +That's what I find so interesting. +Yes, mostly of course, well +Mm. +it's all office work +Yes. +and er you see and, and anyway I finished up my holiday and the sergeant said,he kept his promise and er sent me a report over the newspaper, you see, and er and of course and I liked the Isle of Man, you know, I went for trips around the island and various places and er, and I did see a Manx cat +Yes. +no tail oh dear oh dear but you see then of course and I was still not married but you see I, as I say, then I went to Cambridge and that's when I met my husband and all his family were so kind to me, er he had erm two sisters living in a flat round the backs, you've heard of round the backs +Mm. +haven't you? +The back of Kings College +I spent hours and hours around the flat, back of Kings College, Cambridge and er, you see and we, we went sometimes for a service. +His mother died when she was sixty unfortunately. +Or sixty two rather but his father lived until he was eighty six and his father was the District Goods and Passenger Manager at Cambridge and er later on, of course, er when he was old enough, he, he was in the same office as his father was but not the same position, you see, but he was a clerk, a railway clerk, and his brother was Stationmaster of Colchester and his grandfather was also a Stationmaster and that would be in Queen Victoria's reign when, when railways first began and then again, you see, in those first days, you see, when there were highwaymen and that sort of thing erm signalmen, signalmen were issued with a truncheon for their own safety, you see, and I've got one. +Really! +Yes +With . +but I don't want er many people to know +No. +about it, because you see I don't want anyone breaking my door down and bashing in, you don't know who's who these days, do you and er but you see they, that's how . +So that I married into what you call a railway family. +You did, didn't you? +I did, yes +and er, and so, and er as I say er I've had a most wonderful life and I've been a widow now for ten years. +It's ten years ago since I lost Hugh but er, I don't feel lonely er not really. +Well you've got so many friends and sisters, haven't you? +Well I've got so many happy memories, you see, well then of course when Hugh and I married, you see, er we had a apartments down at +Oh, really? +Yes and we u +That was, that was divided into flats then was it then? +Oh no, no, no, well there's an old lady lived there named Mrs and her husband was a clergyman. +They called him Father . +At one time he, he lived at, they lived at but er er she was a widow and she was ninety but she was very good to us and, but we had er, we had apartments but there was a lock on both sides of the door, you know what I mean, we were quite self-contained and we had er er a narrow stairs and because of the war I couldn't, you couldn't er, I used to scrub the stairs down because you couldn't buy carpet in those days, you see because of the war and to the shortage of stuff and so I used to keep those stairs nice and, we had a, a, we went, as we went up these stairs erm it, I suppose originally, you see, it would have been back stairs for the servants, you see, in the hall and this old lady used to go in and if ever she had the doctor she used to ask me if I would go and sit with her and hold her hand while the doctor came, you see. +She had other daughters in the town but she always wanted me and if ever she wanted anything to do with her papers and books and financial things, she used to ask my husband to go in, you see the day after we got there she brought us a huge dish like that with mushrooms which er grew f er well there are houses built there now but er at that time they had a big meadow there sort of a copse er in it with a bunch of trees and you see and all these mushrooms grew, you see, and they were, you know, they're nice you see. +We paid rent to be there and er and of course either Hugh or me or both of us came up to see my mother every day, you see, unless we knew she was going to have a visitor and then we used to take a day off +Mm. +and we'd go off to Felixstowe or somewhere but you see we still went away because he had four first class passes a year +Mm. +being on the railway and er, you see, er and of course I went then under his pass I suppose Mr and Mrs then and er and then of course we started to er when my parents first died we, we started to get around. +Yes. +You see, and so we went to oh Inverness, Aberdeen and across to the Isle of Skye, and down the Skye and back across the water to Mallaig you see and er then we stayed one time at Fort William and because I love Scotland, so did he and erm and, and then and all r and then, and another thing, erm, this is before I married erm I went down, oh no, both of us, that's right, we went down to stay at erm not, not Portsmouth er Southsea er there, there's a place near there, next door +Eastbourne? +No, not Eastbourne, erm +Gosport? +Southsea +Don't know. +Nex anyway it's quite near Portsmouth and we heard that the first Queen Elizabeth ship, they don't say it's the first but they call this one the Q E Two but there was a Q E One, you see at one time and so we took a coach from there to Southampton because we heard that she was in dock there and so we went and there were crowds of people and all in a queue waiting to go in. +Well we took our turn and we waited to go in but once we got in we broke away from the crowd and when they all came out and went to lunch in the town we didn't. +We stayed on board and we went up on to every deck and there was even a gentleman, he showed us up on the bridge on that er on that and, and of course there was the little shop and I bought I thought I must buy something on the Queen Elizabeth and I bought a pen. +One of these er, I suppose it'd be a ballpoint or whatever you call it and this, I've still got it, it says on the Queen Elizabeth, see, and er, you see, we said, we said, well never mind very much, we can have something a snack afterwards and so we stayed on there from eleven o'clock in the morning until three in the afternoon, you see, and er er and we were wandering around and we saw the dining room, we saw the captain's table and er, you know it was, and, and then we looked along one deck, we were high up, and down below there were rows of, rows of lifeboats in case you see +There was an accident. +of an accident +Yes +you see, but oh I enjoyed, we had some lovely holidays. +Yes, sounds like you did. +I, I did, and then of course as I say er, you know, with my husband, well I had lovely holidays before but when you've got a companion it's all too different isn't it? +It is +I really, that's what I live on now, memories of the happy holidays I've had with him and, and even to this day I keep in touch. +Janet posted a letter for me last week to a friend who I worked with at Ipswich, she was one of the girls behind the counter and at the moment they, her and her husband, he, he, he, he was on the, he finished up but he started as a lad in the kitchen but he finished up as a chef on the dining cars and they married and er and they've got er two children erm they're married to and, and we kept, we've kept in touch with each other for sixty years +Yes. +sixty years, I wrote to her last week and I had a letter from her the week before +Yes +and we've kept in touch and they live up er Witton Churchley +Oh yes +You know where that is +Yes I do. +Yes +That's right and we've kept in touch all those years +that is nice isn't it? +Well its wonderful really you see +Yes yes. +and she we we we were good friends, you see +Mm +when er, we've kept friends you see, they don't come here often, like me they're getting old +Mm. +and she's got arthritis, well in her knees, same as I have but not quite so bad because er, well up to now, but then again she's younger than I am er several years younger than me and, but she's getting on and so is Jack you see and er, and er so erm I've had a, as I say, I've had, I've had a wonderful life really. +You have haven't you? +You know you say you lived in at Ipswich Station? +Yes. +Erm, didn't, at Needham Market didn't people live in there or main entrance? +Where? +At Needham Market Station. +Oh, well,n I don't know what it's like now but because the booking office is closed. +Yes,th that used to be through the main entrance, isn't it, the booking office. +You go through the main door up the steps. +You go up the steps, in the main door +Mm. +and the booking office was on the left +Mm. +and the Stationmaster's office faced the platform but there is another door that to get into as soon as you got in the main door to the left, you see and with a flap and that's the door that we used to take in the parcels, you see and very often we used to go in that door or sometimes we would go through o on to the platform and go in the Stationmaster's door, you see and then there again, if I took messages to the Stationmaster on the single telegraph er I had to go down the steps because th more often than not that they were in the basement. +It was, there's the basement and then a large room above where they used to have meetings er, you see, and er, and er, well they did they had friends from Stowmarket go and visit them, you see. +Didn't the Stationmaster and the clerk live on the premises? +Er, oh yes, they lived in the station next you see. +That's the bit that joins on one side of the main entrance area? +Yes +They've got there are two little doors aren't there, which are probably their front doors? +Well,th yes, well that's it, they are going facing the station and it used to be so much prettier than it is now. +Mm. +pretty the daisies and things and the Stationmaster lived that side +Which side, what on the left hand side as you face +As you face the station, he lived that side you see and er there, the room where they used to entertain their friends was just the other side of the wall the booking office, you see, and er he was such a kind man, his name was Mr +Mm. +and his, his er son was one of the lads who worked in the office doing the middle turn, you see, and er I don't know if he's still alive. +He must be eighty, because I mean there wasn't all that much difference in our ages. +You don't know where he went to when he left? +Well I, he lived at Stowmarket for years but then I heard not so long ago that they had moved to Ipswich but where I don't know but they must be, whether he's than I have now I don't know either. +On the other side was th the Chief Clerk would live? +No, he, no I think it was er, I can't remember who lived there. +I think it was one of the signalmen or +Aha +I can't remember exactly who lived on the right hand side, I've forgotten but th I know the Chief Clerk lived just a little way down , you see, er +In one of those little red brick cottages? +Yes, that's right down there, down there, down and as I say who I took early and late turns with and er why I same as at Cambridge. +There were twenty five staff. +Was this at Needham? +Ca no, not Needham. +Oh +No I had nothing to do with the staff at the +No, no that was at Ipswich +He, he were a Stationmaster, you see, er he was exceptionally nice man. +You never heard him say a bad word or anything like that . +Well he was quite, he was a good man. +He used to . +Oh I cried when I left there, I really did, it upset me. +Yes. +But and when we all quite shock +How many were working there, how many girls were working there then at Needham? +Only me. +So you, yes. +Only me in the office. +Yes. +You see, and er the porters did the er er cleaned the waiting room and dusted, you see. +Well, there was a porter there, called Len and he, he was eighteen and er of course you know well I I was as I said sixteen, so he was a bit older than me but he, whilst he was at Needham he said well when I'm eighteen I'll get my calling up papers. +Cos that's during the First World War, you see, and erm, he did and so he said goodbye to us all and he said I'm going up now to say goodbye to your mother and he ran up the street here to say goodbye to my mother. +She made some tea, she told me afterwards and stayed and stayed and stayed and he lived at Prindon and his mother was very very deaf and my mother got worried because he was going away the next day and she said to him, Len don't you think you ought to spend the evening with your mother and he said, yes, I'll go now and he ran off and he ran back again and he said, you don't mind if I write to Ivy do you? +She said, no you write and he'll, she'll write back, you see but, and he went out to France and he was killed in three months and and his name, so they told me was on the er,on the board at er . +Do you know I often wonder what happened to the honour board at Needham Market. +There used to be an honour board and I was on it and so was Miss 's brother, er Ivor because er who whoever won the scholarship, you see, their name went on the honour +Oh, I see. +board, over the door +In the church? +No, no, in the school, er in the er, no it wouldn't be in the church, no +in the school, oh +and of course I'm talking now about the old school +Mm +Because I don't know anything about these new schools. +No. +No I don't know what's happened to that. +No, I, I wondered because er it was quite an honour to have your name +Yes. +put on the honour board. +Yes. +You see, and my name was on there, as I say and Miss was the top . +No I don't know whether hers was on, but I know her brother's was, you see, I, he died of course. +Yes. +So how many worked there, there was a lot of people worked at Needham Station then. +There were what, two porters +Er, yes there would be two porters, yes. +Then there was you +Yes. +and two clerks +And two t these two lads er +So there'd be two clerks and two lads? +No, one clerk +One, one +Chief Clerk +Chief Clerk two lads +and I took early and late turns with him +Yes +but the other one went on the district +Oh, I see, yes. +as I said before as a relief clerk +Yes. +for holidays and sickness and so on and then later on relief Stationmaster +Yes. +and you see eventually he got a station of his own at Thorpe le Soken. +Yes. +You see down on the +Yes +So that's how many +and then the Stationmaster +of course the Signalman. +How many signalmen, just the one? +Well no cos he had actually +So there'd be two signalmen, would there? +Yes. +That's nine people worked at Needham Station. +Yes, I, I +No one works there now you see. +They don't work there? +No, no, the signal box is closed. +Oh, now, is it really? +Yes, yes. +Well I heard not so long ago that they were going to either pull it down or +Well I think they want to keep it, either there or move it somewhere +Oh, well I, I think that'll be a shame. +It would be a sha I think they've re they don't want to lose it. +No. +I hope not. +But as I say they might +They have how things have deteriorated since +it's amazing, that there was nine people who worked there at the time of the war. +Yes. +You see, and of course when I was at Cambridge, you see, and that was during the Second World War, well of course, you see, I remember seeing a plane because of course the station was a prime target +Yes, yes. +and somehow I don't know how, but somehow they always knew when the train was being loaded up with tanks and then that was the night we would get a raid and of course, you see, they all ra tried for the station. +Well, you know,it you see, time were, I don't know I suppose, I don't know but I never seemed to be afraid and I used to have my or something round my waist, a belt with the keys hanging on and they supplied me with a as well, one of these, I don't know what they're made of they weren't all that heavy but still they were heavy enough to keep on. +I mean they weren't aluminium so they blew off I used to wear one of those and er, you know, for safety, you see, but er anyway I survived the survived the war and but wh it's amazing really when I look back how we d how we managed because we had such nice people in there, as I say and like these actors Jack Claude Cecily . +They all came down and used to come in our rooms and all sorts of other and I met some very ni and of course, all nationalities, you see and no matter what they were, well of course Cambridge has always been noted for different nationalities, hasn't it? +Mm. +And of course I loved the town and although the station was about a mile from the town centre, people used to come from the town centre in their cars, they had lunch at our place er er at Cambridge, you see, and there, there were two waiters and one, one of them took part-time cellar work, you see, and er, they were two brothers and er their name's +the younger one they call tiny because he was the yo smaller than his brother but the other one you see and we did enormous business, especially during the war. +Mm +But er +yes +you see and I'm glad I didn't miss it, I'm glad I went through all what I did and, and this particular raid, you see, the siren went and they said a telegraph office read, you see,an and then I thought I'll go to the back door and I went to the, well it was actually on the front of the station and I went to the front of the station and there was this plane swooping down like that and of course, you see, the bombs didn't fall down straight like that but they went as the plane went and they knocked down a row of houses at the end of the road. +Yes a row of houses and of course when I saw I looked out the door and there was this plane swooping down like that and it seemed so low because they were aiming an and the bomb fell in the cattle market and, and I threw myself on to the stone floor, you see, and er and presently one of the ambulance men came round to my office door and he said, are you alright? +I said, yes thanks. +I sat by the fire knitting and er he said,I can see . +Well you took all this sort of things in your stride but the next day we heard about these houses being knocked down, you see, and I think that's the nearest I've been to be killed but one day, one Saturday and that was in a daylight raid, one Saturday afternoon because, you see, I was off every afternoon but I worked till ten every night, you see, and er so erm but of course Hugh worked during the day and he was off in the evening, that's why he used to come down to see, to see us and er he used to come in er you see and leave his lodgings and, oh be about nine o'clock and he spent the last day up there perhaps with his friends, have a chat, and er, you see, and but er and I was walking along it was called and suddenly a plane came over and I thought oh I expect it's one of ours. +When all of a sudden they dropped a bomb and I thought there wasn't at all, you see, and no siren had gone, nothing, you see, and there was broad daylight. +Mm. +You see, of course we heard about it afterwards, you see, +Yeah, yes. +but er I don't know perhaps we were braver than these days, perhaps you were braver when you're young +Mm, yes, perhaps that's true, yes. +When you worked at Needham, you must have seen all the toings, comings and goings on station yard,yard and a lot of cattle coming and going. +Well no, er we, no we didn't, the only cattle we saw was when they were on the train, cos I don't remember they, they seemed to. +I don't know whether they dealt with cattle. +Aha +It was mostly seeds and stuff like that. +Yes but you know Russell . +I know he, he's older than me. +Yeah, yeah, well he's I interviewed him er last year and he was telling me that he remembers going up into the loft in 's erm, the whole of the station yard was full of cattle. +Oh. +So loaded off of the train. +Oh, oh I didn't know that, I, I perhaps that was, perhaps that was +I think they were all going to market because obviously had a farm. +Oh yes they did. +So it's possibly one market day I think he said. +Yes, well that might be the time, you see when perhaps I was at Cambridge. +Yes. +It might have been later than, than er when you worked there. +Yeah y +He was saying people going on the trains is it when you worked there rather than animals +Oh I no animals +No +you see, no animals were er, only in the, in the trucks, you see. +Mm. +passed through, because they didn't stop at Needham and er but I always thought, you see, there were, I don't know several clerks in that office as I remember but I can't remember who they were anyway I didn't have, we didn't have much to do with them. +No, no. +You see, they were just more or less sort of, I thought they were just sea merchants. +Mm. +Yes that's probably to do with farm. +Er, yes +No, not the mill really. +Aha, yes. +I imagine. +I, I don't remember any cattle +No it may have been later +Yes. +or being older he may have remembered times before that. +Yes, yes that's true yes because how +old would he be now then? +Oh, he must about ninety. +I tried to remember when you said he was born. +Oh. +I can't remember maybe, he must be about ninety. +Yes, well I was er, you see born in eighteen ninety nine. +Yes. +So of course I go as the years go +Yes. +you see and like eighty six, now this year, I shall be eighty seven but you see when it comes to the end of the year, the turn of the year, I'll still be eighty seven +Yeah, yes. +you see, until my next birthday, that is, you see, but I, well each year, you see, I always say well to my friends I am so thankful for my friends who drop in and each year I say, well I don't suppose I will be here much longer but I shall be here, I hope, while I can walk +Mm. +but when I can't walk well I shall call in the doctor. +Cos I n I don't have a doctor year in hardly ever. +I'm thankful for my good health, you see, because apart from arthritis, you see, I'm as well as anything and I hope I'm still in my right mind, you see, but I, now and again, I forget names +Mm, but then I forget names, my husband is dreadful with names +Well er +he would even sometimes recognize +Yes. +with people he knows quite well. +Oh I see. +I think it's just some people are a bit like that and some are +I I forget people, I forget but then, you see, as I never go out. +Well I went out once last year, you see, and I was lucky enough but and for years and years and years I took Fynnon Salts and which is supposed to be good for rheumatism. +Matter of fact this last couple of days I've started again but you see er of course that was before paracetamol came on, on the scene +Mm. +and I have tablets from the doctor and you see as I say from the waist upwards I'm +Yes. +I feel well and th and I try er and my husband's nieces they often ring me up er well I was on the phone to one of them when you came yesterday. +Er and she said I'll ring you ag I said oh dear someone now coming to the door, she said, never mind I'll ring you on Saturday, so I said alright and er and she lives at Wyndham, Norfolk, my husband's niece and erm, you see, and then there's the other one and she said, auntie you're always so cheerful , I said, well I try to be cheerful because like everybody else I get a little depressed sometimes because, you see, I have no sisters and brothers, I have three elderly cousins who live away and who I, who I see, one was here a fortnight ago er er er my cousin and his wife er, you see, it will be on a Wednesday, a fortnight today, no Thursday, yes, you see, a fortnight ago and they said, we'll come again an we've always bought you a bunch of daffodils so we shall come again when the daffodils are and er and they bring me over bits and pieces because er she was a cook and they bring me something nice to eat +That's nice, isn't it? +Isn't it nice but I haven't any er +Close relatives +no and of course being, marrying at forty four er no family +Mm +you see, you haven't got any family? +No, not yet. +I'm married but I haven't got any family yet +Oh, that's what I mean er and you'll have to make haste won't you? +Oh I don't know, I don't know whether it'll be like Mark and Jenny and perhaps never get round to it . +No, I know, well I mean what is there for young people to look forward to these days and I feel really sorry for them and I mean all I hope is that Jenny will get a job +Oh yes. +when she's finished +Yes. +er but I don't know whether there's any prospect, do you think she +Don't know, don't know. +When y you know you said your father was a shoemaker? +Yes. +Whereabouts in Needham did he have his shoe +Well it's where the bomb, where it was bombed out +Aha out yeah +quite near the United Reform Church. +I knew there was a shoemakers there. +Yes, Mr +Yes and my father and Mr +What was your maiden name again? +and he worked for Mr ? +I didn't +No, did your father work for Mr ? +Yes that was his name, you see well, well my father, as I say, he had a stroke and er he was in, in bed in the front room for seven years, you see. +He er, Hugh and I used to come up every day do what we could, you see, in those days if you had a stroke you had to lay there till you died. +Mm. +Er but nowadays I suppose they take you up to Ipswich and you'd have er +Physiotherapy or something like that +That's right +to make you, to get you going again. +Yes, that's right +Yeah they do so much more nowadays. +Well that's it, but they didn't then, you see and er and Doctor used to come up here +Oh yes I've interviewed his widow. +Mrs er Mrs er +she is +Isn't she nice? +Yes. +Oh I knew her years ago +Yes +and of course, well she was er I haven't seen her for years and years +but she's +but but, you see, I am told that she's going to live next door to the, where she used to live the doctor's house er er unless +that's pulled down, you know almost opposite the United Reform Church. +Which house is that? +Well there you, I don't know what it's like now but they u +It's not quite opposite, is it? +Er +It's more or less opposite where your father's shoe shop was. +Oh, is it? +Oh +You mean the big red brick one next door to the doctor's surgery? +Er i er, yes the doctor just there. +Yeah that's it I how +Mrs 's father-in-law. +I am going back to old Dr +Oh, old Dr , oh yes. +you see, and he was, he, he probably brought me into the world, you see but, er you see, and Mrs erm, you see, she was married to Doctor and he used to come up to see my father and we had a different door then door being that's got a yale lock on now but he he'd say, hello Frank, you know always so you got, oh he was so nice and it was such a shame that he died +He was very young when he died. +He, he was and I forget how old he was +I think he was only in his forties. +Was that so, oh +Yes +dear he was so nice +Yeah, everyone said how nice he was and old Dr was quite a character +Yes he was, you see and he used to come down, you know, and everybody's family waiting to go into that tiny tiny little surgery but I don't know if it's the same now and the door half open in er well, anyway,still er he, he, he, he used to put something in a bottle and fill it up with water some liquid +Mm. +you see I'm talking about his father but I liked er Mrs 's first husband, you see and er I hear that her second husband isn't all that good. +No, no he wasn't well, I went to see her er I think he may have had a stroke and he can't get about very well at all +Oh dear +and I think he finds it difficult to speak +Yes +as well +an and is he, is he at home? +Last ti when I saw her he was, yes +Oh he was +but +because he's had a spell or two at Stowmarket +Yes +he had er new place there er er what's his name they've got a, they opened a new nursing home didn't they? +Oh, did they? +Er works for er there's only, oh I can't remember his christian name, David, David and his wife, you see, and I think he, David still works and of course +He lives along the road from me. +Oh you know Mr +Yes, yes +and, and erm so on. +Mrs was very kind, she sent me a box of mince pies and barley water and shortbread all sorts, you know. +Christmas time and she did last year +Mm +er and of course I've known Walter for years but I don't know his wife, I've never met his wife and of course not being able to get out into the street now, I should get out for about two years after I lost my husband and then I got this er awful pain nobody knows unless they have it er this arthritis in my knees, you see, and erm and then I found that it was too much for me to er otherwise I used to walk up to the post box road and I used to count the steps, three hundred and something steps there and three hundred and something back, you see, and to the front door, you see, but I, I can't do it now but I have with help and I went out last year with er Mrs and er twice we went to Dulwich which I enjoyed and so did she and the last time we went to and er we had our lunch and we went to see my cousins at West Suffolk and and, and then came home again, you see, and that's the only time I went out last year and usually I used to go to for a day and I am hoping that if I, I am hoping, well you can only hope, that I might perhaps go so out one Sunday, once, just once in the , you see, because er,th that's when when you're old you've got to keep, you've got to hope for something +Mm. +Yes. +and you've got to keep busy and you see now my sight has gone I now, not long distance, I can sit here and see television +Mm. +you see I moved a bit more now but and I I've still got good hearing er apart from this ear here, this ear, I can't hear so well, quite so well, this side, you see so I always have to say excuse me while I, hang on while I turn off the television, you see, and then they have to wait a minute till I turn it off and then what I do is because I have this phone extension put in +Yes. +you see I've got one in the front room and I had this one put in so then I say if I am in the kitchen, I say, I lift up the receiver, hello, and hear who it is and then I, I say hang on while I get round the chair and then you see I sit on the arm of this chair and talk because er it's difficult to stand too long +Mm. +you see, but er, otherwise, you see, er +you know I, I get on well really by +You do, yes +and I, I have a meal on the Friday and er brought to me +Mm. +and, and they're such nice people +Mm. +Do you know Mrs and Mr +Oh yes, they live up in Creeting yes. +and, and Mrs ? +Yes, yes. +Now er her husband came down one day and I said to him, what's your name, and he said Mr + +the apartments that going, we just supply one. +Our work goes to the Axminster +Mhm. +department. +Mhm. +Have you been in B M K like for a number of years, is this your first job or do you do jobs ? +No I worked at er in an office, I worked in offices before I got married and eventually had my daughter. +And then after I had my daughter I was going to go back in there but at the time it was just like a junior's position, +Mhm. +and now it's a wee bit further on than that +and I thought it was demeaning. +But in retrospect thinking back I should just have and waited for something else come along. +Aha. +So I had a job for about a year er in a fruit shop and then I didn't like the Saturday work +so I decided I'd have a go in a factory, aha, and I come in it was over in the other place, the noise was unbelievable, really unbelievable. +Mhm. +I said, I'll never stick this, and all these women and they said, no it isn't very, so twenty one years later +here I am, I'm still here. +You're quite settled now, aye. +No I'm not settled and I'm not happy but +but the, the work market is not that good, I mean I don't +That's right. +have a, a degree +Yeah. +in anything, all I +Yeah. +was doing was a shorthand typist. +Aha, aye. +So a a and there's nothing much in , I'm at the +No. +stage that I want to put +That's right. +my knapsack on my back +and find out what's going on in the world. +Before it's too late, I mean I don't want to reach +Mm. +fifty or sixty and say is +Mm. +this it? +Because that's it. +Yeah, mhm. +But I would, I would like to just like pack it in and go. +I'm trying to wait till my daughter's married. +Aha. +Mm. +Cos she's still erm she finishes in December up in Glasgow, this her it's like her fourth, fourth term at Glasgow +Mhm. +doing an honours degree in maths, so I'm waiting till she's finished and then +Mhm. +that'll be it. +Mhm. +Mm. +I feel as if I'll have done my bit. +I find that actually speaking to people my dad, mum and dad, well my mum works in an office, my dad works in a factory, and they've always been very much sort of you know go out and get your education and +Mhm. +Do you find that people working in here are like that with their children, do you think they sort of push them so you don't, you know don't end up working in a factory like me? +No, I wouldn't say that at all, you, you can only guide your children or show, show them the road, you can't actually force them +Mhm. +unless they want to do it themselves. +Aha. +Cos I often wonder, don't you get fed up all these exams and +Mhm. +my daughter travels up and down to Glasgow cos she didn't want to stay, she wanted to be at home, +Mhm. +she must be fed up going up and down to Glasgow. +And, and all these tests and they've a project here and this, that and the other +Mhm. +But no, she must do it while she's young +Mhm. +cos she found out, in her first year, she had a, a mature student and I wondered how old a mature student and he turned out to be thirty five, and he was married, +his wife was supporting him and he was doing jobs on the side, +Yeah. +and he couldn't hack the first year, he failed the first year, and he failed the resits. +Mhm. +So she decided this is the time to do it, when you're young, +Yeah. +and you've no re no hang ups, no responsibilities, nothing in the sign. +Mhm. +So er when she wants to do it I'm behind her, +Yes. +she's had her chance and I'm doing all I can to help her but at the end of the day it's on her shoulders. +Aha, aha. +If she, she fails at, at the last hurdle well she's gave it her best shot. + +Okay. +recording is that? +Now if you jut want to say your name or something, just to check check that's re it's recording. +If you just give me your name or say hello or something . +Dave . +No say say it towards the . +Oh Dave . +Er do you want to say it now? +David . +Mhm. +Walter . +Okay right that's not bad. +That's just +Is that working? +That's working fine. +Okay, well we'll just we'll just start then. +I mean +Mhm. +don't be frightened to speak loud. +No no +See the clearer you speak the clearer it'll be on here . +Ah yes. +Okay. +Mhm. +So then and er is that a bit uncomfy +No it's fine. +for your there ? +It's fine it's fine. +Is that is that okay? +Fine. +But Okay then So I'm here speaking to Walter and David and you've both worked at Lyness during the second war. +No the first +No the second war . +No no. +It's both it's the second. +Right you are. +Well I was just actually gonna ask you about about what you did afore it. +How you got into this work. +So I'll start with you Walter. +Well when I left school I stayed in the island of Hoy to Lyness. +Mhm. +And er my first job I had at Lyness was working for William on the tanks outside, tarmacadam under the tanks. +Mhm. +And then when I finished there, came and I was employ employed number one by them. +So your first job was was working with the tarmacadam. +Yeah, with William . +Mhm. +Doing it under the tanks. +Mhm. +And then when that job finished I started with . +And they were the firm that were make a tunnel up the hill. +But first they had to look for a camp site so Mr was the chief engineer I was employed by him, to have a look round and we discovered Lyness farm to be a suitable place. +Mhm. +So they decided to build the camp there. +They bought the farm from the late William Wards and built the camp there. +And would that be the first camp buildings on Hoy or +Oh no there was more camps afore that. +There would have been Sir William before that. +Mhm. +And er so what er what er sort of era was when about was this still right at the beginning of the war when you were doing this or +That would have been I would say maybe August nineteen thirty eight. +Nineteen thirty eight. +Mhm. +Mhm. +Mhm. +Mhm. +Cos I was reading in Hugh 's book that the very first sort of work was in surveys done in thirty seven. +That's right and testing the heathers for the tunnel. +Mhm. +They did drill holes up the hill. +Mhm. +But before that was working there on the tanks digging out the tank farms. +And their amp was the Fleet Canteen. +I see. +Yeah. +Mhm. +Mhm. +Mhm. +And while while the while they were testing, did they employ any of the local folk for this ? +I think there was somebody employed dragging the stuff up the hill. +I don't know how many how many were employed. +There wasn't many men there was just a company come up and test bored in the hill. +Mhm. +Mm. +And was this testing for possible underground fuel tanks? +That's what it was testing for. +Yeah. +And did you know that on Hoy? +No Well +Were you to told that this is what they were planning ? +Nobody knew they they they said it was something to do with tanks but nobody knew +Rumours. +Yeah. +Mhm. +Aha. +Mhm. +That would kind of be kept a bit quiet was it? +The +Well not in that base no, but +Not in that base, no. +there were quite a bit Lyness, because I remember once the Hoy Head coming down from Stromness with a lot of party makers aboard it and cameras out and afore they knew where they were the admiralty men was there whipping the films out of the cameras. +Is that right? +Mhm. +Mhm. +Mhm. +Mhm and this was just an innocent party +party Mhm. +Mhm. +Mhm. +Mhm. +Mhm. +So they they do they test for the for the hill would be the first thing. +Yeah. +What can you mind what was the first sort of action on Hoy that impressed you cos Well you'd been there all your life you would have really seen the whole process happening. +Well the first would have been the building of the tanks, the outside tanks. +Mhm. +When came to dig out the foundations and like the buildings round the tanks. +Mhm. +That was the first . +Mhm. +And did you go straight to school? +From school to doing that? +No I was working various small jobs before that. +Mhm that on Hoy ? +On Hoy yeah. +Mhm. +Mhm. +Mhm. +Mhm. +So did they just have you on right away? +Oh yes. +Full time? +There was no trouble to get work then. +There was no shortage of work. +Mhm. +Yeah. +Mhm. +And and what about you Davie? +You wouldn't have +Well I started on farm work. +Mhm. +I started on farm work and then er we left that and we started with the County Council. +On the +Yeah. +roads and quarries and +Mhm. +one thing and another. +And then we decided that me and me brother would go chance our hand at Lyness. +Ah. +So the camps was up then of course when we came down. +Yeah. +Mhm. +What +So. +time would that be about that you started +I think about the same time as Walter for the war was declared when we were down there on the third of September. +Aye you'd have been there in thirty nine. +No the war was declared in thirty eight. +Aye well that was the that was +thirty nine. +Thirty nine was it? +That was the crisis thirty eight. +Ah. +Ah it was thirty nine. +Yeah that's the crisis. +Yeah. +Ah yes. +Yeah. +Mhm. +Mhm. +So I mind war was declared then. +Oh right. +Frightened the life out of us altogether. +And where are you from yourself? +Are you from the mainland? +Yes just here I belong I belong here . +Oh I see Mhm. +Right. +So it wouldn't be too big a step just to go to Lyness really it was kind of a natural thing ? +No no just just caught the boat at Stromness and old Hoy Head and down there and Took a bit +One and six it cost on the ferry +Mm. +And and why did you go there? +It was +Well for better money that's Better prospects, that's why +Mhm. +we went there. +Mhm. +Erm +Yes that really would be where the employment was. +Yes yeah. +We were working with the council at ten pence and hour so we thought we were going to improve on that a wee bit. +Right I'll stick it atween you again now. +Er Now and I'll sit in front of you listening. +Would you like a table to sit ? +Mm. +Mm. +I'm dead right with this +Ah. +. +Okay. +.So what would your first job be then when you actually +Working in the quarries er loading the lorries with a hand shovel. +Hand shovel. +Yeah. +Is that all the equipment they gave you ? +That's that's all we got. +And they was high sided lorries it was a quite a a throw up . +Jesus. +And old boss old West, Do you mind old West? +Tom West and John West. +Aye. +Yeah. +He always said, Chuck it well over, chuck it well over . +All blooming right for him when he was six feet in the air. +Is this the lorries ? +So Yes that's the Burn Transit lorries that were loaded . +They were Dodge lorries. +Aye Dodge. +Yeah. +Mhm. +Mhm. +And were they did you see them coming up? +Were they transported specially up? +Well Yes from London. +It was a London firm . +Mhm. +Mhm. +Yeah. +Mhm. +But they all didn't come at one time, they were always had new ones coming again . +Yeah. +Mhm. +And and was i how did you work it, was it like a certain amount of men per lorry or did they just come in convoy ? +Ah well they d Well as you see it's three or four lorries there so many men at each lorry . +Mhm. +Yes. +Mhm. +And was it continual like, as soon as one lorry drove away did you get an empty in ? +Oh the the lorries were standing waiting for you. +Worse luck. +Mhm. +Mhm. +About how can you mind how many of you there would have been? +Roughly? +Er in the camp? +Well +Working in the quarry. +Oh my goodness . +Be twenty would there ? +Aye it'd been about twenty or thirty . +Yeah. +Mhm. +Mhm. +Mhm. +Twenty or thirty. +Mhm. +Mhm. +And and where where would you have stayed? +In the camp. +It was all camp. +Mhm. +Mhm. +And that was was that was the camp just right on the Lyness Fell. +The Lyness Fell right on the point yeah . +Aye right down to the shore there. +Yeah the shore. +In the middle of a turnip field. +there was +turnips underneath. +They were building the camp on the top of the tatties and crop and turnips . +It was turnips underneath the huts . +Yeah. +Yeah. +And er put the huts up. +Of Paisley. +Is that right? +They employed a lot of local labour of course too. +Yeah. +They had a lot of joiners up from Paisley and they employed a lot of local labour as well. +Mhm. +Mhm. +But despite that it wasn't the first camp up. +There was camps up for the tank workers +No er they had tanks up for their men yeah. +They had huts up for their men. +Yeah. +And did not? +they had the Fleet Canteen. +Ah. +Mhm. +They had the whole Fleet Canteen,. +They maybe had a a few huts for their bosses or huts round it. +Mhm. +But they used the Fleet Canteen which was there in the first war. +And it was right near the pier was it ? +In the centre of the tanks. +In the centre +Yeah. +Mhm. +of the tanks. +Mhm. +Mhm. +Yeah. +Mhm. +Mhm. +And then later of course you'd get all the the rest of the camps. +Was this was still fairly +Oh yeah. +early on in what nineteen thirty eight, thirty nine ? +Thirty eight thirty nine yeah . +Mhm. +Mhm. +Mhm. +And then it would er at that time you would just have the tank workers and the quarry workers. +Yeah. +Is that right. +Yeah. +And the ones up the hill. +Yeah. +Digging the road up to Wee Fea. +Ah right. +And trying to get the light poles up. +There's a London firm did the light poles,. +That's right +From London , they did the poles up from the Lyness up to the hill. +Mm. +For the lights. +And right over the hill from North to South . +Yeah. +Was that lighting inside? +Lighting inside yeah . +Ah. +But the lights to keep power +Mhm. +Mhm. +Mhm. +Mhm. +So you changed jobs then really did you both you both kind of started out in the quarries +Yes as labour for +Oh no. +I actually started with eng civil engineer, going round looking for the camp site and then we did tramp the hills . +Ah right. +And lay off were the tunnel was going to go and the road up to the hill and lay off the power station and +Mhm . +Mhm. +All that on the hill and then go down to the and measure from there to the top of the hill to see how much pipe for the +Aye. +for the to pump water to the hill. +Right. +Mhm. +Yeah. +So how many folk would you be working with? +It was just two of us along with the surveyor. +That would be kind of the cushy job +Yes. +carrying that theodolite and labelling +I mind +Yeah +Mhm. +Mhm. +Mm that would that would still be seen as likely a better job that +Oh yeah +Yeah yeah +It certainly was. +Yeah. +Mhm. +But I got promoted to the road roller and then into the power station so +Mm. +Mm. +Mhm. +Yeah. +Mhm you you +It was a different outfit altogether. +Then I left the surveying surveyor civil engineering I went in the black gang. +Along with the fitters at the tunnel, looking after the locos and slushers in the tunnel and all the rest of the +Mhm. +Mm. +tunnel gear. +Mhm. +Mhm. +Can you mind roughly h how long it would have taken you to get the rough survey. +How long +was that done? +Oh there was weeks of it. +Weeks of it? +Weeks of it because the after the put in all his markings the admiralty came and checked the whole thing then. +To see if it was right +Mhm. +before they was allowed to go ahead. +Mm. +And e every week the admiralty had a clerk of works going round watching the progress. +And er they had a surveyor gang checking all the lines in the tunnel that the surveyors put up to keep the men driving the right tunnel it shouldn't go p one past the other. +Oh I see. +Yeah. +Mhm. +Mhm. +They were working with both ends. +Both ends you see. +They were working from both ends. +They had so many men they had to start at the other end and +Aye +to the other side so as they +Met in the middle. +And +And they did meet. +Did meet yeah. +And then they +Just a few inches. +And then they had the adits coming down from the top. +The two adits coming down as well the +What's adits? +Well they were tunnels too. +It's just a vent-hole really for +And they they they chaps down to the pumps. +The pumps was at the bottom of the adit. +The pumping for the tunnel. +Mm. +pumping they'd a pump away along used to pump it along +Aye but they had two at the bottom. +One in each down at the bottom yeah . +Oh it could've been. +Yeah. +Yeah. +Mhm. +And and they pumped in there. +Mhm. +Mhm. +Right. +Mhm. +So you would wait till did did you ken what you were doing, did they explain it to you? +The surveyors? +What was happening . +Aha . +Oh yes they told us it was to be underground oil storage. +Yeah. +Mhm. +They had three surveyors there. +Mhm. +And they finished . +And they had an , an assistant , +Mhm. +A chief engineer, Edward . +And +Aye they had plenty of bosses. +, +he was a local, he was the engineer up the hill. +Mm. +At that was boss +Aye Magnus, yeah. +Yeah. +Mhm. +mhm. +Ah right. +Mhm. +Mhm. +Mhm. +Mhm. +Oh well I'm going back in time to catch up with your side . +Wh did the when you were erm still shovelling, did they ever provide you with better equipment? +Than just your shovels ? +No you just had your shovel. +it going. +Oh I see . +And was it all. +down at the survey I wasn't very long there, I was only about +Mm +Mm Mhm. +three or four weeks. +Mm. +Mhm. +On that kind of work and then +Mhm. +Mhm. +then I was on this roller and then we got er started up at the power station with the +Mhm. +with the engines. +mhm. +And your your roller, that would all be shipped from down South as well was it? +Well it was there when I came I don't know where it Yes. +Mm . +Yes. +It come up on the boats. +Yeah. +Mhm. +All the machinery come up from wherever the headquarters was. +Mhm. +Mm. +And could you drive already or did they +Oh land rollers is no bother to drive +No +Just one lever. +Forward and start. +And the biggest job was keeping the water in the boiler and keeping the You had to get steam. +Mhm. +Oh of course. +Mhm yeah yeah. +Mhm. +Steam roller. +Mhm. +Mhm. +Aha. +Right. +Yeah. +And and to get the stones, you would be working with just explosives? +To start +Aye you you'd be blast it down It was drilled and blasted. +Mhm. +Mhm. +Yeah. +And then the road roller. +So once you were road rolling, was you still on that job when you started to make the road up to up Wee Fea? +Yes. +Yeah. +Yeah. +Mhm. +Mhm. +That would be another major operation. +It it certainly was. +Getting a road up that +A lot of it was done by hand. +It would have been mostly done by hand. +There were some bits the digger was in, but mostly by hand. +Yeah. +Yeah. +And then it was all with stones and +Aha. +and pitched and tarred. +It's still standing good yet. +But all the machinery was put up before the road was +Yes. +Afore the road? +Yes yes. +Afore the road, yes they just towed through the mud and +Yeah. +Mhm. +Mhm. +Was that because they were so desperate for it? +Yeah +Yes they had to get lights for for working . +Mhm. +Yeah. +Mhm. +And I suppose that would have been this +Aye that's the +Mhm. +the Blackstone. +Six cylinder er four er six cylinder Blackstone. +Mhm. +And and what were they? +Just g g generators? +No? +They they drove generators? +They drove generators . +Aye That's +Yeah. +Mhm. +Mhm. +fixed down on a concrete bed and then your generator goes on the end on +Mhm. +Mhm. +Mhm. +Mhm +Mhm. +Coupled. +Mhm. +Mhm. +Its flywheel and all this are going after it's . +what would you call one of them then? +A six cylinder Blackstone. +Ah right. +Never heard of one of those . +That's what it is. +Mhm. +Oh. +So would you mind describing how you got it up there again cos I thought it was quite a good story. +Well they set off they towed it up and then they had at least six six of them Burn Transit lorries all towing it up. +Yeah. +And er our road roller was pulling too. +And we got half up and stuck. +And then er +they put a pulley away up the hill. +That was kind of a massive pulley in concrete. +And then put the ropes round the pulley and pulled down the hill instead of pulling up. +Mhm. +Right. +So we got it up that way. +Mhm. +That's quite clever, use gravity to help you along . +Er yeah. +Yes downhill . +And +See the roller smooth tyres wheels that could pull nothing up there. +No. +But with its own weight going down you could er Oh we got it up. +You would need steep rope for your pulleys? +Oh yes. +Oh yes. +Aha. +Can you imagine down a hill in road roller . +It's just a nightmare. +Yeah. +So there was there was no accidents caused by all that going up ? +No it all went +Mhm. +Mhm. +sticking here and there but er +Aha. +we got it there. +Mhm. +And then once she was up, you did you have your power station already built? +No oh well the floor was there. +It was what the I think +What was the station? +That's part of the station. +Is that? +That is. +That's the station. +Yeah. +It's a it was a +Oh right. +corrugated iron building. +It's corrugated iron building, that's the station . +Yeah. +Yeah. +Oh right. +Of of course it's just quite a peedie building isn't it. +It's not a great big . +Oh it's not +No no. +It's not very +No. +not very big but my there was some noise inside there +When that big er belt +Yeah Yeah. +er and what was actually inside it then? +Well there was nothing in it but the engines and and the +And +generators. +Mhm. +And compressors. +And and how many engines would there be? +Er +Five was it? +It was er three, two hundred and forty horse Blackstones , +Yeah. +One small one. +On hundred and forty horse. +Ah and a Crossley. +And a Crossley was three hundred and fifty, it was the biggest one of the lot . +Yeah. +Yeah. +Mhm. +There'd gave been five five engines +Five engines yes. +And how many generators would that run? +Five generators +All the all the generators. +Mhm. +Five. +So you had to have an engine for each generator? +Mhm. +Mhm. +Mhm. +Mhm. +And then that was all erm giving light to the tunnel? +Light and power yes. +In fact, Lyness got light off it to begin with. +Aye. +Aha. +Because they had no power station at Lyness. +Of course +Un until the admiralty put in two stations later on. +A and B station. +Mhm. +Aye. +mhm. +Mhm. +It was the Blackstones +Mhm. +Ah right. +Mhm. +your compressors, was that for air? +Were +Yeah. +you feeding air +Yeah. +into the tunnel? +For the drilling. +Aye the +Ah. +And for the mechanical shovels, the slushers. +Aye it was all compressed air. +Compressed air. +Mhm. +Mhm. +Ah right. +Mhm. +What about the folk working in the tunnel, would they need air at all? +Yeah. +No no there was plenty of fresh air. +Plenty of fresh air. +Ah but they had a vent-line +They they had they had round to suck out the +A big +the gelignite fumes and the diesel fumes yeah. +It was a fan blowing it out. +Flan blowing it out yeah. +Mhm. +Mhm. +Mhm. +And if you went past the end of it with your hat on and you're whoof +You'd a bald head. +The fans are still in it yet, for the +Oh. +for the admiralty the fans in it yet but they're +Oh right. +not wired up of course. +Aha. +Aha. +no lights. +And what was your day to day job then? +In in +Oh well worked in shifts . +Three shifts right round the clock. +Mhm. +Mhm. +Seven to three and three to eleven and eleven to seven. +Mhm. +One week about. +Ah right. +And you were supposed to work half past seven to half past five. +Mm. +But there was no limit to working time,four to ten at night if they wanted you. +Mm. +Ah right. +There was no hours worried about. +Mhm. +Work on work on. +Mhm. +Yeah. +Aye. +Mhm. +mhm. +Mhm. +And once your surveying was done, did they actually put you inside the tunnel? +Oh you the whole time +with the surveyors. +Oh right. +Because you had to put in the level plugs for them to keep the level and the centre lines to keep the centre. +Mhm. +Every day you were in with the +Of course you would survey the outside +Yeah. +And then you would just need to be b used to build the whole of the inside then . +Yeah. +Yeah. +They surveyed the whole hill, right over the top. +Mhm. +And then er decided where the entrance was to go in. +Mhm. +And then er kept the centre line then. +Right. +Mhm. +So d you had a North South +Aye North South, yeah yeah. +East West ? +No. +No No. +Just right through . +No just North South . +Right through. +Right through. +That was right through and then once they got it right through, they cut the big chamber then. +They drove a ten by eight tunnel on that side. +Mhm. +To the right and a ten by eight to the left and then they went up a grade and they drove up same on both. +Till they got a good piece through. +Mhm. +And then they came back and they drove shafts down to the bottom. +Right. +And once they got that down th cut the arches then, the wide arch. +And they 'creted then As they took the big piece out, they kept pumping concrete and shifting then pumping again. +So as the roof was all secure before they blasted the centre out. +Oh I see. +Yeah. +And it was on rails that +On rails Yeah. +Mhm. +And then pumped the concrete in at the back. +Section at a time. +And once they got that section all set, they started to cut the next in. +And then they shift again. +Pump that one in and kept moving on. +Mm. +They got the roof secure, cos it was a wide +Mhm. +hole then. +It was a massive job. +Yeah. +Mhm. +And then they blasted the centre out. +Mhm. +The side and the b floor put in then. +Oh right. +Mhm. +And was it off this one central chamber that you took the tank chambers round? +Yeah off the first one, +Yeah. +and then you drove another tunnel out to the right +Right. +and you so far out and then you drove another one in to the next chamber. +Yeah. +Same again to the next until you got your six chambers. +I see. +And then they drove another tunnel out, an access tunnel which +mhm. +Once they were concreting the pipe tunnel as they called it. +Yeah. +They used that to take all the muck out then. +Ah I see. +Yeah. +Yeah. +Mhm. +And how were your six chambers arranged? +Was it in a circle like that?a central one No. +Aha. +No. +No no. +One l one like that and then the entrance into it. +Right. +The next in like that. +Aha. +And the next and the next just the same. +Ah I see . +Yeah. +Mhm. +Mhm. +And the same off this side then ? +No. +No? +Just all the one. +Just this one. +Mhm. +Six on the one side. +Ah I see. +Mhm. +Mhm. +Mhm. +So you would like come in to the main entrance and then +Come into +you'd have all the tanks right +Yeah. +to one side and then your exit. +Yeah. +Mhm. +Ah. +Mhm. +Mhm. +I see. +Mhm. +like I imagined it at all. +Mhm. +Mhm. +And where did the expertise for this job come from? +They would all be folk engineers for South +Engineers for South yeah. +Aha. +And was that 's job? +'s job yeah. +Mhm. +Mhm. +Mhm. +Mhm. +Course checked the whole time by the admiralty. +Mhm. +They were there checking the whole time. +mhm. +See that nothing was +Mhm. +faulty or out of place. +Mhm. +Condemning if it was wrong. +Mhm. +Yeah. +Were they pretty careful then? +Oh they were. +Yes. +Mhm. +Mhm. +Mhm. +They watched everything closely. +And what about your your workmates? +Were there any other local fellas on it or +Oh yes, a lot of local fellas +Oh yes, yeah. +Everyone who was spare was +Everybody as they left their school got a job doing something. +Aha. +They worked in the kitchen or or huts +Yeah. +Working in the huts. +or running in the running to the +Yeah. +Yeah. +Mhm. +Mhm. +Mm. +Mhm. +Mhm. +And you see a great lot of the people stayed locally Well they had their wives up. +Yeah. +Yeah and they stayed in local houses. +Mhm. +Mhm. +And of course had their own camp and their own agent's bungalow Lyness, down on the point. +Where the Gord +Gordon stayed and +Aye. +Ian and Jimmy and Bert and er Tom and all that ones. +Tom and and John +John John both of then stayed there. +All the gentry was down there. +And if it if it came an air raid you started scurrying to the hill to get in the tunnel. +The air raid shelter. +Yeah. +Mhm. +Er +Mhm. +And then of course erm would it be later that they took up the English miners? +No they came up pretty soon in it, when they were digging the road but +Yeah. +Yeah. +they didn't think too much of the weather like this. +No. +Yeah. +mhm. +Is that right. +Mhm. +D Ho roughly how many came up +Fifty or sixty I think. +Aye it was about sixty . +About sixty. +Sixty in the first lot. +Yeah. +Right. +But then men came from all over. +They came form and and Aberdeen and +Mm. +Inverness and +Yeah. +Shetland and all through the North Isles of Orkney, everywhere. +Mhm. +They flocked in. +Mhm. +And Spitzbergen. +Spitzbergen. +I was not there when they +The Norwegian lands? +Yeah. +Yeah. +Yeah. +Yeah. +Mhm. +Grand workers they were. +Yeah. +Mhm. +Mhm. +Great big tall men. +Yeah. +Mhm. +Aha. +Mhm. +Yeah. +mhm. +Did you have special clothing?did you +No we got we got an oilskin coat and a pair of rubber boots. +For to to protect you in the tunnel they said you wear a helmet, but nobody hardly ever wore it. +For +Is that right? +on your head. +Aye. +And folk weren't keen on wearing them? +No they hardly e there were maybe some did but very few. +Ah right. +Mhm. +And did you get any masks for the fumes ? +Oh no no no. +No? +What about you Davie were you in +I was never I didn't work in +What about working in the power station, did you have any Did you get ear muffs for the noise. +No. +Didn't have them but we should have had. +But what a noise was in there. +Mm. +But you didn't get them. +No. +No. +No. +No. +I had a wee office but it was kind +Yes. +of sealed that you could go in and have a cup of tea in. +Mhm. +Ah. +Mhm. +Mhm. +So was your main work in the power station, checking everything was running alright? +Checking +Aye, just looking after engines. +Aha. +Aha. +Mhm. +And d had they shown you like were you sort of trained if anything did go wrong, you would have fixed it yourselves? +Aha. +Oh yes, most of the things we'd have done the work ourself. +We did all the engine repairs. +Mhm. +Mhm. +Er we dismantled one of the six cylinder engines, we did it in a shift. +Me and Tommy. +Mhm. +We +Mhm. +removed the pistons and +Mm. +new liners and that in the eight hours we were on shift. +It took a bit of doing.. +Yes, that's going +And the blooming heat and the +Yeah. +noise in there. +We never spoke we just worked with signals. +Ah. +You know our our putting up the pistons more or less a which is we had a big of er Tommy would know what I meant and I would know what he meant. +Mhm. +Mhm. +Yes you would need some form of communication like that cos shouting would just be useless +Yeah. +Yeah. +Mhm. +No. +. +So it would pretty well train you up as engineers by the t by the time you'd done that then ? +Oh yes oh yes certainly knew you had to know what you were doing with it you know. +Did you have any kind of basic training afore it like? +Did they take you for a week and show you +Not really well we the Blackstone engineer fitting up engines, he stayed with us for a while to show us the ropes like you know. +Aha. +But after that you just had to do it yourselves. +Mhm. +Ah right. +Mhm. +And +And air raids, I mind the air raid +Mhm. +We'd we'd to clear out. +You couldn't work with the lights you see +No. +Shut the lights down. +You used to switch off the lights and run. +Yeah. +Mhm. +Oh really. +Right along the hill. +Mhm. +And you'd hear the tracer bullets rattling about the tin sheds. +They had a they had a air raid shelter below the power station later on. +Aye after . +Mhm. +Mhm. +Oh. +But er when you were after the power station so when clean away from the station altogether. +Did you never enter the tunnel like you were +Well they were in the tunnel anyway. +Yeah. +Ah we were too far away. +You were too far away. +We didn't go in always, we used to If we were on the top of the hill we used to watch from the top. +Mm. +I think one time there were some folk up from Lyness they cleared out and they were in the tunnel and of course they blasted. +And somebody says, Oh they've dropped a bomb on the tunnel. +It was the blasting in the tunnel. +Aye quite safe in the tunnel. +Yeah. +Yes. +Yeah. +You would be in the dark though were you if you shut the power down . +No the li the lights was on in the tunnel. +Oh yes. +Yeah. +Oh yes you could leave the lights in the tunnel but they could see the lights that were, any light about the station, they could +Yeah. +see that . +Ah I see what you mean . +Yeah. +Yeah. +Yeah Were very particular about lights they I think it was about a hundred feet in the entrance that there were +Yeah. +there was no lights at night. +So as the light wouldn't have reflected through the entrance. +Oh I see. +Yeah. +Mhm. +Mhm. +Mhm. +And then they had a tip outside where the lorries backed into +Mm. +to pick up the s the er muck out of the tunnel. +They had a very small very faint light and they had a blue light. +Aye. +A very light man tipping the skips into the bins could see what he was doing. +Right. +And the three lorries could back underneath and load and go down and tip at the Golden Wharf at Lyness. +Ah right. +Oh yes I'd forgotten to ask you about that. +Yes +Mhm. +Mhm +That was the . +And +And of course a lot of the muck was tipped on the hill, you can see the marks of it yet. +Yeah. +Where the rail track runs from the North town to the South town or you could go go by rail from the one side of the hill to the other. +Inside or outside +Aye. +Yeah. +Mhm. +Mhm. +Yeah that must have been quite something to see something chugging round Hoy +Mhm. +Mhm. +Mhm. +Mhm. +Mhm. +Mhm. +Mhm. +Think what you would think of it nowadays. +It's just crazy. +Mhm. +Aye I must ask you once you once you had your sort of main tunnels built and your light and then you would start concentrating on your chambers? +The chambers yeah. +Mhm. +Mm. +Now h wh what did it look like inside one of these chambers? +Well the +Once it was or while you were building it and once it was up. +When we were working on it it was just a load of excavations. +Mhm. +And you could see all the tunnels going in below. +And the tunnels at the top and the shafts down to the top. +mhm. +To get ready for putting the arches in. +Mhm. +It was only when you blasted the centre out that you actually +Yeah. +Yeah. +saw the big +Yeah. +Right. +cavity then when the roof was secure. +Mhm. +Did you did you go up right through the hill at all to get light? +Never you would stay a good bit underneath +No no. +No there'd be there'd be about It must be two hundred feet above . +Oh yes. +Oh yes. +Aye. +So we'd be half up the hill I would think. +Aye. +Yeah. +Mhm. +Aha. +Mhm. +So when you came to blast the the centre out, was there like a special warning to everybody +Oh there was +who was working in the hill to +The No oh no they the you just moved back +N Aye, shifted back +Shifted back out of the blast and you got boom boom. +That's all you got. +Mhm. +Mhm. +You you'd think there was somebody knocking on your ears. +Yeah. +Yeah. +Is that all is sounded like? +Yeah. +Aye, it wasn't a big charge it was +No. +just breaking up the pieces of stone. +Yeah. +yeah. +Right. +Mhm. +Aha. +Mhm. +You n you were never concerned that the whole lot might come in or something ? +No. +No. +You wouldn't be with your concrete +No. +It was just if it was a clay seam like number five chamber, were the full of clay. +Mm. +And they made it shorter for that reason. +Right. +But most of the hill was quite safe. +Aha. +Er but er +Lots of slates falling down on +Yeah. +the top of your locomotives +Yeah. +Yeah. +Ah. +Coming out. +Yeah. +Mhm. +Mhm. +Be terrible dark would it not be? +No it wasn't dark at all. +Mm. +No? +No. +You got water running in places but not badly, in the wintertime it wasn't too bad. +Mhm. +and you said there was actually this the two Irish fellas that got killed in the tunnel? +Yes they +What h +boys. +What happened to them? +It was a roof fall. +Mm. +Ah. +After the blasting. +Mhm. +Ah. + +further questioning. +was strangled at her house in the Peartree area of Derby. +Her body was found on Tuesday night. +Two years ago her husband burned to death in a mystery fire in the same house. +Yesterday detectives arrested a man and a woman in connection with Mrs death. +Meanwhile two people are being questioned in connection with the murder of a Northampton man. +Peter Howell was stabbed just two hours after being released from policy custody. +His body was discovered on Saint Andrews Road. +He was well known in the local drugs scene. +Police say they've arrested a thirty eight year old man and a twenty six year old woman. +One of the region's universities is to spend thousands of pounds installing the latest high tech computer equipment. +Derby University is one of the newest in the country. +Hundreds of students have just begun their first term and computers are essential in just about every subject. +Now the university has decided to spend one hundred and fifty thousand pounds installing more than a hundred of the latest computers. +Students from all faculties will have access to the machines at the Keddleston Road site. +Staff say the computers will be used for everything from report writing to course registration. +Hundreds of car enthusiasts turned up today for the South Lincolnshire Motor Show. +It was rough going for some of the exhibitors as they put a new four wheel drive model through its paces. +Meanwhile the public had the chance to try out their driving skills on a slightly smaller scale. +The show continues tomorrow. +That's the news so far we're back tomorrow lunchtime and don't forget to put your clocks back one hour we all get an extra hour in bed tomorrow morning. +For now though from all us goodb good evening. +Central Weather sponsored by Legal and General. +Good evening. +Cloud has been affecting most parts of the Midlands today but not quite as much as up there in Scotland although that's gonna make a bit of an impression on us tomorrow. +For tonight though patchy cloud'll feed back across the region from the northeast. +There might be some mist floating around down in the southwestern part but generally those temperatures will be above freezing. +This dry pattern will continue into tomorrow but the cloud I've told you about in Scotland will wander down towards us bringing some thicker cloud for a while. +But generally a dry and fairly bright Sunday. +Bye bye. + +And subtract from that figure the corresponding figure for an engine capacity of one thousand and one to fourteen hundred C C, namely one thousand two hundred and fifty three pounds and thirteen pence for the vehicle I find she would otherwise have run. +To achieve a figure of two thousand and thirty five pounds seventy five pence for annual depreciation. +I allow six hundred and ninety two pounds fifty five pence for standing charges excluding depreciation and thus these two heads total the sum of two thousand seven hundred and twenty eight pounds and forty pence. +To that must be added the running costs of a, at a si at a similarly discounted rate deduced from the A A tables of nine p , nine point four eight tenths of a mile. +I assess the annual mileage as six thousand which then gives a total for running costs of five hundred and sixty eight pounds eighty pence. +The total for all running costs is therefore three thousand two hundred and ninety seven pounds and twenty pence. +Applying a multiplier of eighteen to that figure, I arrive at a figure of fifty nine thousand, three hundred and forty nine pounds and sixty pence, which is the award I would make. +It is neither the ninety seven thousand, nine hundred and fifty seven pounds claim by Mr nor the forty seven thousand one hundred and eighty five pound figure contended for by Mr but I find it a fair figure for the cost of the plaintiff's transport in the years ahead. +Sub-heading medical expenses. +On evidence before me I find that the plaintiff will require regular physiotherapy, speech therapy and hydrotherapy throughout her life. +I heard evidence of the one domi domiciliary visit per week of the physiotherapist had been stopped in September because of lack of resources. +I heard evidence that regular speech therapy at six monthly intervals was necessary for the plaintiff, particularly in view of her dribbling and choking problems. +Equally I'm satisfied that her hydrotherapy is both reasonably necessary and beneficial. +It follows that for si , physiotherapy I award the sum of one thousand seven hundred and sixty eight pounds per annum. +For hydrotherapy a similar sum and for speech therapy the sum of two hundred and twenty five pounds per annum, totalling three thousand seven hundred and sixty one pounds per annum . +Applying a multiplier of eighteen, the total sum is sixty seven thousand six hundred and ninety eight pounds, which is the sum I would award. +Sub-heading administration costs. +I am satisfied that the plaintiff is in a state where it is reasonably necessary to provide for the costs of setting up and maintaining a trust to handle the plaintiff's financial interests over the years ahead. +The costs involved are agreed at the sum of eight hundred and eighty one pounds and twenty five pence to set up the trust and an annual cost of three thousand two hundred and thirty one pounds twenty five pence. +Applying the multiplier of eighteen to that figure, one arrives at a figure of fifty eight thousand one hundred and sixty two pounds and fifty pence which when the additional costs are added in comes to the total of fifty nine thousand and forty three pence, I'm sorry, fifty nine thousand forty three pounds and seventy five pence which is the figure I would award under this heading. +Sub-heading, agreed figures. +The figures claimed under paragraph two C of the plaintiff's schedule for transport costs are agreed at six thousand seven hundred and ninety four pounds. +Those at two E for the schedule for Mr costs are agreed at thirteen thousand four hundred and forty seven pounds and ninety pence. +Those at three E of the schedule for Mr costs are agreed at a total of a hundred and forty four thousand six hundred and fifty nine pounds and fifty nine pence. +I should also itemise claims which were made under two heads which have been satisfied by interim payment. +There was a claim for forty two thousand seven hundred and eighty six pounds and eighty six pence for the cost of alterations to the plaintiff's home already carried out as I have indicated already, that was discharged by payment and by local authority grant of nine thousand eight hundred and forty seven pounds and an interim payment of thirty two thousand nine hundred and thirty nine pounds eighty six pence. +There was also a claim for medical treatment and therapy in the sum of eighty three thousand three hundred and seventy nine pounds and twenty six pence which was paid by a further interim payment. +Neither of those sums of course has to be taken into account in any of the mathematics which now have to be done to total up the awards which I would make. +The addition of the individual awards which would be made in the course of the aju this judgement achieve the total figure of one million eight hundred and fourteen thousand six hundred and fifty two pounds and twenty eight pence. +From this sum there must be deducted a total figure of two hundred and ten thousand seven hundred and seventy eight pounds and ten pence. +To give credit for other interim payments totalling one hundred and twenty one thousand five hundred pounds. +For interest on interim payments totalling seventeen thousand eight hundred and seventy one pounds and thirty pet pence and for statutory benefits on the relative multi relevant multiplier of eighteen, coming to a total of seventy one thousand four hundred and sixteen pounds and eighty pence. +When those credits are deducted from the total figure for the awards covered by this judgement the overall total figure would amount to one million six hundred and three thousand, eight hundred and seventy four pounds and eighteen pence. +I stop this judgement at this stage for two reasons. +These figures do not allow any sum for interest and therefore it may be that calculations will have to be made by council to include that figure or alternatively I am informed that both parties wish to consider the possibility of the incorporation of this judgement into a structured settlement. +That is not a matter where the parties are sufficiently advanced for it to be addressed to me at this stage. +It follows that I expressly do not give judgement at any figure at this stage but indicate merely what the findings are which I have made and what the sums which those findings lead to, are. +If there is to be a time taken for a further hearing before me in relation to the question of interest and or a structured settlement, I regret that the parties will have to follow me, not purely from Chelmsford to London but thereafter to Maidstone. +I am sure that the arrangement can be made and er I conclude what I have to say at this stage. +My Lord I am very grateful for that. +My learned friends and I will therefore er seek to resolve as soon as we can, the matters that are outstanding. +I know that everybody involved in the case is conscious that matters should not be left in the air, although the amendment to leave the cost of the . +I now speak for my learned friend when I say that he will expert that. +Er, My Lord we will obviously calculate such interest that has to be calculated er and figures have to be sorted out and will be agreed if that is appropriate, er and we'll also consider whether it's proper er to seek to achieve a structured settlement. +Very well Mr I'm grateful. +Do not feel at all shy about seeking to correct any figures that you think are perhaps in error. +My fingers on my calculator are not as nimble as they should be. +My Lord m may I add one further matter, er, My Lord may I say on behalf of the family er the that your Lordship's comments will be very gratefully received er, neither Mr or Mrs , although they've sought recognition for what they've done for their daughter, they did it out of their fond love for her but nevertheless having such a and such comment from your Lordship will be very, very good. +Well that's good of Mr . +I don't think there was any word that I said that wasn't fully deserved by both the parents and their other daughter Clare. +My Lord the the final matter is, my learned friends and I agreed that it would be proper for there to be a further interim payment er in the sum of twenty five thousand pounds. +Yes Mr +We consent to that and your Lordship one direction to help us when we come to calculating interest is one of the earliest figures that your Lordship came to and it was dealing with care to date. +Yes. +Your Lordship split into two periods. +The first one was done on an hourly basis, it's the second one, where your Lordship applied the multiplier of two and half to a figure taken from Miss calculations of of thirty six thousand pounds one hundred and fifty. +Er, Mrs figures my +Sorry my Lord, er Mrs figures, yes +Yes, thirty six thousand one hundred and fifty pounds and seventy two pence. +My Lord I +Multiplied by three point five which I brought to a figure of a hundred and twenty six thousand five hundred and twenty seven pounds and fifty six pence. +My Lord the only point of interest and it's really one that I took in the of the submission is that if you use an up to date nineteen ninety three figure for calculating it when it was first back to years three and a half, two and a half and one and a half years ago, then intre it wouldn't be fair if interest is awarded on that as well because in a sense the increase in the figure that inflation and the increased cost of living has produced because you use an up to date figure, probably equates with the interest and we can the figure an up to date one to avoid just that otherwise it would be getting the figures for each of those years and then working out interest. +That your Lordship would direct, it would be in our task that that figure shouldn't have interest added to it because of the way in which it was approached. +I think that's probably a logical conclusion because of the way the figure was reached in submissions. +Mr what do you say? +My Lord my initial reaction is it sounds logical as well and I I wondered if if what my learned friend has said i if and also what your Lordship's initial view is, if the matter can be left in that way er i if after further reflection, it seems right then of course that's the way that we will approach it. +I if there is any problem that can be mentioned it won't take more than thirty seconds I would have thought. +Shall we leave it that I will consider making a direction at the next hearing in relation to that figure and the question of any interest thereon but will defer any such er decision until you've had time to consider it. +My Lord I'm very grateful. +There isn't I think anything else that can be done this afternoon. +In that case may I apr clude by wishing the parties and their advisors a very good Christmas. +claiming for damages for breach of contract and your negligence against their former solicitors in relation to their handling of the purchase of a business by the plaintiff in late nineteen eighty five but all the say is on the nineteenth of October of nineteen eighty nine er my Lord the matter is complex. +It has er generated a great deal of documentation er which I hope that your Lordship has with him now in court, er, the documentation has been divided for trial into two parts, part A and part B. With your Lordship's leave erm, my learned friend and I have discussed erm, how your Lordship may best be helped in this matter. +Erm what I have in mind to do my Lord, is to open the case now for you to indicate the scope of erm and will you then know,agreed that we would invite you to adjourn that for some time to enable you do some reading of the witness statement and expert's reports because of course they are long and that would take considerable amount of with your Lordship is able to familiarise himself with the matter which is contained therein. +Er, and if your Lordship is happy to do that then I can open it now and indicate what the case is about and invite you to take some time. +Thank you. +My Lord, part A erm of the documentation contains three separate bundles. +Bundle one is the pleadings bundle, which I hope your Lordship's had an opportunity to glance at er this morning, part A trial bundle one is the pleadings bundle. +My Lord the pleadings bundle runs to almost a hundred pages erm, this is due principally to the fact that there are something like four sets of particulars to statement of claim which have been served over the years er where the plaintiffs have set out their claim in er in detail. +My Lord the second bundle, part A bundle two contains the witness statements. +There are statements from both the plaintiffs. +Does your Lordship have the it should be er a small red file bundle that looks rather like that my Lord. +Part A +Part A trial bundle two it should say on the front of it. +Yes thank you. +Thank you. +The the trial bundle two contains the witness statements in the action and your Lordship will see erm on the indexing page that there are statements from David and Jean , the plaintiffs. +There is then a statement from er a witness to be called on bail, June . +There is then a statement from Peter erm who was the partner with the said firm with whom the plaintiffs dealt at all the relevant times in relation to this matter. +Er, he too obviously is . +And finally there is a statement from a woman called Sarah who was at the time of these events,church and her statement can be read because there is nothing in dispute in it. +Yes. +Erm my Lord that trial bundle two in part A, my Lord, trial bundle three of part A erm, comprises expert evidence from two accountants er one from each side and my Lord the er evidence of the erm plaintiff's accountant is that of Mr whose report appears in this bundle and the defendant's . +This is B 1 is it? +I'm sorry. +B 1 +This is er part A bundle three. +Does it say part A bundle three upon it? +Thank you. +Yes, thank you. +Well that's, that's part A no part B. +It's part A bundle three. +That's it. +Yes. +There is a report from Mr from Peat Marwick who is the plaintiff's expert and there is then a report from Mr from Coopers and Lybrand who is er the defendant's expert. +Erm, both erm experts are to give evidence before and my Lord included in this bundle with their reports are the documents to which either one or both of these experts have in guard when preparing their reports. +Er, my Lord you will see that there are cash flow forecasts which relate to the business er back statements for the plaintiffs er and then there are documents and papers which are referred to in Mr report and finally on the final page of the index there are the principal sources of information for Mr report. +My Lord for convenience sake so that everyone can refer immediately to both documents when the experts are giving evidence, they are all in the expert bundle. +Thank you. +Well then er there is the documentation which is er entitled part B and part B which is also er contained in three files one, two and three, comprises what are essentially all the relevant documentary er evidence, which is arranged chronologically and events run, as your Lordship will see in due course, from approximately nineteen, mid nineteen eighty five through to the end of nineteen eighty six, beginning of nineteen eighty seven in the . +My Lord erm, just to tell your Lordship what the scope of the bundle is. +Bundle one er starts in er, in fact in nineteen eighty three, nineteen eighty four with documents which deal with the er first plaintiff previous employment and his general financial situation before then turning to nineteen eighty five and to the events that led up to his purchase of the business around which this litigation centres, in September of nineteen eighty five and the documents in that first one will go up to mid October in nineteen eighty five. +They continue then in bundle two from er mid October to mid August nineteen eighty six and the final bundle takes the picture up to the end of the relevant matters in this case er in the early part of nineteen eighty seven after the business was re-sold by the plaintiffs at a loss. +if I can er start first of all with the pleadings bundle and with the statement of claim which erm er sets out all the er upon which the plaintiffs and your Lordship will see from paragraph one that this claims relate to the purchase by the plaintiff of a lease of a restaurant and wine bar business at and er it is alleged that the defendants were retained by the plaintiffs to advise them in relation to that transaction in early September of nineteen eighty five and that the contract between them er contained the usual implied required for the defendant to exercise or deal with the proper and care in relation to their conduct of the transaction and er to the advice given to the plaintiffs throughout. +And my Lord the fact that their retainer and the existence of those implying terms are admitted in the amended statement which starts on page thirty eight of the bundle. +My Lord on page three of the pleadings bundle +My my pleadings bundle isn't paged, but er +I'm sorry my Lord. +I said my pleadings bundle isn't paged. +Oh I'm sorry my Lord then. +But erm, no doubt we can put that right. +have difficulties but we can certainly provide you with a er numbered bundle. +see that er paragraph three of the statement of claims sets out the history of the transaction a and pleads the relevant facts. +My Lord by way of facts the first named plaintiff Mr is now er fifty eight years of age and he and his wife live in Brentwood er both are named as plaintiffs because their joint monies were expended in the purchase of the, this business and they were both parties to the purchase erm but it is clear that Mr in fact did all the negotiations for the purchase and the planning and the running of this business and he is er the prime witness on behalf of the plaintiff. +He's a man who erm is qualified in the field of computer sciences and if your Lordship will hear has worked throughout his life in the fields of computers, banking and er in March of nineteen eighty five he left employment with a company known as Data Logic Limited where he had been employed as a banking consultant and decided at that stage er on a change of career erm and he was looking principally to acquire a wine bar, restaurant, country house hotel, something of that nature and er you will hear that after some early disappointments in the earlier part of nineteen eighty five when deals that er were on the horizon for premises in Oxfordshire and then in Chichester erm in early September the plaintiffs er saw and liked the wine bar in and offered the price of, the asking price of seventy five thousand pounds with stock er which was accepted. +it is clear from the statement of claim that the er plaintiffs retained the defendants from about the ninth of September to act in relation to the purchase of this wine bar which was then known as er the plaintiffs were obtaining finance from the National Westminster Bank in order to purchase this business and the plaintiff Mr had been engaged in long standing discussions with his bank from the earlier part of nineteen eighty five with a view to er agreeing financing facilities for the purchase of the various opportunities that preven present themselves and er he will say and that he makes clear in his witness statement erm that he certainly had understood that from these negotiations the National Westminster Bank were prepared to provide the financing that he required to run this business. +Now on the seventeenth of September Mr met Peter on the defendant's firm er for the first time at his office, where they had er a general discussion about the business and about what needed to be done in order to secure it and er the plaintiffs at that stage told Peter that there should be er no problems over finance as he understood the bank were willing to assist and at that stage he wanted to move as quickly as possible to exchange contracts on the business erm, for two reasons. +Principally there were at that time other interested parties in the premises er and also erm Mr saw it as essential er that er they were in and running the business er well before the time of the Christmas trade which was rapidly approaching then, then it being late August and er he wanted to make sure that they were in in in time for them to be able to take advantage of those bookings that they anticipated. +The meeting of the seventeenth of September at the defendants offices is admitted by the defendant erm, but there is no admission as to what was said at the meeting. +Now er on the Friday of that week, the twentieth of September my Lord, erm Peter wrote a letter to Mr er dealing with the matters related to the preliminary enquiries and so the documents from the vendors solicitors they have pleaded in the statement of claim er that there was no er reference to or discussion of conditions in the contract of sale and in particular no reference to condition twenty two two, a national condition of sale which appears in paragraph three two of the statement of claim and which was a condition which er gave the purchaser the right to the contract in the event of the non-completion by the vendor after the service of a special notice to complete. +Er the er facts set out in that paragraph are admitted by the defendant er in relation to that letter. +My Lord the er case moves on there over the page now to the twenty fourth of September and on that day Mr was notified erm by his bank on the telephone that head office had approved the finance proposal in principal and as a result of that Mr then telephone Peter , the defendant, told him that the financing for this deal had been approved in principal and Mr asked Mr to provide a bankers draft of some seven and a half thousand pounds in order to enable exchange to take place as a matter of urgency. +The matters obviously moved fairly rapidly because the parties were then almost ready to exchange contracts. +On Wednesday, the following day, the twenty fifth of September, there was then a a meeting between both the plaintiffs and Mr at the defendant's offices when the contract for sale was signed by both plaintiffs. +The bank draft was er erm and it appeared that at that stage Mr was told by the er by Mr that the landlord's consent to the assignment of this lease erm, had still not be obtained. +That is admitted it, the defendants also erm that Mr had told them that he, the bank had approved the loan facilities an and that he wanted to move quickly to er exchange of contracts. +The plaintiff's case is that despite the difficulty with the landlord's consent at the time the contracts were signed, it was made clear to them by Mr at this stage that that ought to be a formality and no one anticipated to expect this. +So my Lord on the twenty sixth of September, a Thursday, contracts were exchanged er and that completion date was then fixed at the eighteen of October and those facts are admitted, there is no dispute about those. +And deposit was paid was it. +Deposit was paid my Lord . +Now my Lord it's at the beginning of October things start to go wrong in erm and as it is pleaded on the first of October er, the plaintiffs were told the, in correspondence from the bank, that the financial terms that the finances that had been approved in principal, were only going to be available if security was offered in respect of a number of properties. +One of which was the property in Frinton which was owned jointly by Mr and his step mother who was an elderly lady who was then residing in that er property and er around that time on the first of October Mr er telephoned Mr and er told him about that but at that time, was not anticipating that there would be an difficulties about the security on Frinton for these he had always, added his case, made it perfectly clear to the man at the National Westminster Bank with whom he was dealing, Mr that that property was not a property which er could er be offered as security because of the joint ownership and er while in conversation with the bank he understood that this letter had been sent and Mrs had been on holiday and that it was simply oversight on the part of the bank at this stage and that all would well after Mrs returned, which was expected in two weeks time. +That, my Lord, the matter moves on to the fifteenth of October on which day er the plaintiff together with Mr attended Richmond Magistrates Court and obtained a protection order from the justices in relation to the premises and then on the sixteenth of October erm this was the day when things started to go very badly wrong for the plaintiff because Mr by now had returned from his holiday and come back cautiously, he apparently attended after his holiday and on this day Mr was told that, by Mrs that it was not possible to proceed with the financial er dealings that had been agreed between them unless the Frinton property was offered as security. +Now at this stage er it is the plaintiff's case that Mr er considered that this caused major financial problems, because the property at Frinton was simply not one that was open to him to offer as security, it was clear that the bank would now as he saw it, on the deal that he understood that he'd struck and he knew that without the bank's help he would not be able to er proceed with this purchase and operate he business in the way he had wished to. +How, how much was the bank going to provide. +My Lord the started sum of money originally, sixty thousand pounds was the total loan and there were further overdraught facilities and and it's the plaintiff's case that without it it was simply not going to be manageable and as a result of that having thought carefully about erm, position it is his case that he rang Peter , told him that there were major problems in the financing of the deal and asked him if he could get him out of the contract because the finance he anticipated was no longer going to be available and it was his case that Peter advised him that there was no way out because contracts had been exchanged, er Mr was told very clearly that he was committed legally now to the deal and that he'd better try and rearrange some finances since clearly they were moving towards er the completion date. +Well that's since denied by the defendant and that is a factual, major factual dispute which is obviously what you'll have to decide. +My Lord the er plaintiff Mr er telephoned the National Westminster Bank the following day in order to er make an appointment to discuss the finances further and an appointment was made for the twenty second of October. +Now on the Friday, the eighteenth of October, er Peter telephoned the plaintiff's home to speak to Mr erm but on this occasion he spoke to his assistant June and er, she was someone who at this stage was involved in the planning and the running of the business together with acting very much as his personal assistant and Mr had a conversation with June on the telephone in which he told her that he had received a letter from the solicitors which indicated that they had not yet, er, the landlords er licence to assign had not yet been given. +It is admitted that there was er such a letter and er on this occasion er Miss evidence is that having heard that the landlords consent for the assignment still hadn't been obtained, asked Mr again whether it was possible in view of that, er to withdraw from the contract and er it is case that again Mr repeated the advice he'd given to Mr two days earlier and told her that it was not possible and that again is denied. +On the same day, the eighteenth of October, Mr came back and spoke to Miss about this telephone call and he rang Peter in the afternoon of that Friday and he asked again if it was possible to withdraw because of the landlord's failure to consent to the er assignment and again er after what will er be described as a fairly easy discussion between the plaintiff and er Mr , er he was told very clearly that it was not possible for him to withdraw, contracts had been exchanged and he was advised that what the landlords er failure to consent did was in fact er provide Mr with more breathing space in order to obtain proper funding and re-arrange his finances er, that again is denied. +My Lord the er plaintiff's case is that as a result of the advice that he was given by Mr er it was clear to him that he had no way out of this contract, that he was committed to it and that he had no choice but to proceed with the matter and there was then er further discussion on the telephone on this day, Friday, between Mr and Mr to where they were going here and Mr said he would now write to the plaintiff setting out what his options were to him and the letter than was sent by Mr was dated the twenty second of October and the letter, the relevant terms of this letter are set out in a statement of claim expressing at paragraph three eleven of this statement saying and of course er that is admitted by the er defendant. +Your Lordship er will see from paragraph three eleven that what the letter er says is as we discussed on the telephone, the advantage of the landlord's objection is that it gives you time to put your finances in order, if the licence was forthcoming now you would be obliged to complete the transaction which at this stage you are unable to do. +The courses of action open to you following letter are as follows. +One, application could be made to the court that Mr the landlord is unreasonably withholding consent to the lease, if the court finds that this is in fact the case they will permit the assignment of the lease to you, not withstanding the landlord's objection. +If such application was to be made to the court I feel that further references to your business acumen would have to be supplied beforehand. +Two, the could proceed without the landlord's licence, it would then be up to the landlord to apply to the court to have the lease forfeited when you could arrange the defence that you were a reasonable tenant and as such the assignment should have been allowed to permit this course of action but of course you are using bank money as well as your own and the bank would be unhappy to lend money in a situation where there was a possibility, albeit a slight, that the lease would be forfeited. +Three, you could arrange payment of the deposit as requested, possibly for a certain period of time and possibly for a smaller amount than demanded, this would no doubt by in the process of the licence. +Four, you could do nothing at all and leave any course of action to the solicitors comfortable then you should be using their best endeavours to obtain the licence. +Now at about the time that that letter was written on the twenty second of October er Mr had the meeting at the National Westminster Bank that had been arranged between himself and a Mrs and it is clear from er this meeting that the bank would no longer er, given that the Frinton property was not to be offered as security, prepared to offer the sum, the substantial sums that they had originally agreed to do and they were now only prepared to offer very much smaller sums and the plaintiff's case is that the only way that they were going to be able to proceed to complete on this matter was er by selling their homes, their family home at and it is the plaintiff's case, certainly in relation to er the losses that they have sustained as a result of the breach of contract, alleged in this case, that er if they had not been forced to go ahead to complete on this deal they would not have been required to sell their family home. +the bank were prepared to pay for the business to be purchase only on condition that the home, that the family home was then sold and the proceeds were given straight to the bank, so with that eighty thousand pounds of equity in the property and the purchase fund for the business was about twenty five thousand pounds. +Now at that stage my Lord Mr er telephoned Mr on the afternoon of the twenty second of October and it's his case that he explained what had happened at the meeting of the bank to him and er asked him again, in view of the fact that was having to sell him home, if it was possible to withdraw from the contract and it is the plaintiff's case that he pointed out to Mr er quite definitely and quite clearly on the telephone, on this day, er that without er the funding that he had required to run this business er he could only see that this was going to be potentially disastrous for him er and once again, my Lord as he said this was a fairly heated conversation and er the plaintiff was told by Mr once again that there was no way out for him and he should now concentrate all his efforts on achieving completion, er and once again we were . +My Lord er in paragraph three fourteen of the statement of claim there is an important fact er which is a fact that is admitted by the defendant which is this that had the defendant on the plaintiff's behalf taken the opportunity which was open to the plaintiff by virtue of national condition twenty two which should say and served a special notice to complete upon the vendors on about the eighteenth or the twenty second of October, the contract would in fact have been rescinded on the thirteenth or the nineteenth of November nineteen eighty five and the plaintiff would therefore have been able to get out of the contract and that, as I say, is admitted in the amended dissent. +What is denied by the defendant and what is the issue of trial is that they deny that they were ever instructed by Mr er to save such a measure or that it would have been appropriate to serve them or that at any stage Mr ever asked to be advised on any way open to him to get out of the contract er as alleged. +It is the defendant's case that the plaintiff was at all times, pushing to proceed as a matter of urgency on the deal. +So as I say there is clearly a substantial er factual dispute between the parties as to what was said on these relevant telephone conversations. +Now my Lord as is er then made clear in a statement of claim paragraph three fifteen erm between the twenty third of October and about the twenty second of November the plaintiff then acting upon the advice of Peter that it was not possible to withdraw on this contract, did endeavour to complete upon the deal as soon as possible, very much with the timing in his mind and eventually after some toing and froing which er will be demonstrated in the course of the evidence, agreement was reached with the landlord for his consent to the assignment to be given er on condition that there was payment of some advance rent by the plaintiff. +That was done and completion actually took place is pleaded as the twenty second of November, the er defendants admit completion took place on or about the twenty fifth of November. +So it appears that completion was around that time although the date is not er, is not certain. +My Lord er, those are the facts which er form the background to the allegations of breach of contract with negligence that are named in paragraph four and five of the statement of claim. +My Lord the paragraph four of statement of claim contains the allegations of breach of contract and paragraph five makes effectively exactly the same allegations but under the heading of negligence in breach of the deal of the care owed to the plaintiffs by the defendant. +Now there are two areas where it is alleged that the defendants were in breach of their professional duty to exercise skill and care in advising the plaintiffs throughout their handling of this transaction. +Firstly, it is alleged that there was a failure to advise the plaintiff er before the contracts for this business were exchanged, as to the necessity for ensuring that there was adequate finance to er complete the purchase granted on terms that the plaintiff could meet and which were set out clearly in a letter of offer from the bank and there was a failure to advise the plaintiffs as to the risk of relying upon oral offers of financing from the bank. +It is, it has been pleaded at various points throughout paragraph three in reciting the history, that at the various meetings between Peter and Mr that no advice of this nature was given and it is the plaintiff's case that failure to give advice of this nature, even if they did not ask for it, which they did not, was a breach of the professional duty owed to them by the defendant. +My Lord it is pleaded as being a matter of er common practice amongst solicitors in this kind of situation er for such advice to be given and my Lord er if you turn to the folio of their particulars erm which were given I think it's the final book, what are called the voluntary further and better particulars which in fact were the final particulars er given towards the end of the bundle of documents. +This is this is further and better particulars we're just finding the document in the bundle. +We undoubtedly your Lordship because er I'll be referring to er one or two other parts of the further and better . +Thank you. +It's page eighty two my Lord. +and on page er eighty two the erm plaintiffs were after perhaps in matters which it is alleged the defendant should have appertained relating to the financing of this transaction, prior to exchanging contracts and the base of the claim is that as set out in the on page eighty two that the defendants should have appertained whether the plaintiffs had a defined source of funds upon terms which the plaintiffs were able to meet. +This they did not do and they should have ascertained by sticking writing into the National Westminster Bank to confirm that sufficient funds were available for the completion of the proposed transaction and that the terms upon which this finance was to be made available had been agreed. +My Lord the defence admit that no such advice was given to the plaintiff but they deny that they were under any duty er to give such advice and it is pleaded in the that er the defendants will rely upon the fact that Mr er held himself out to be er an experienced man of business and as such it was not necessary on their part to advise him upon the adequacy and arrangements for the financing of the operation. +My Lord that is in dispute, it is in dispute firstly that in fact as a matter of fact, Mr had ever held himself out to be an experienced man er of business, that Peter believed him to be as such, er and in any event, even if he was to seem as such it is the plaintiff's case that there was still a duty upon the solicitor in that situation. +Well the solicitors couldn't very have written to the, to the bank could they? +As it is alleged here. +Well my Lord it would be the plaintiff's case . +If they had done the bank would have written back and said mind your own business. +Well, my Lord, the plaintiff's case would be that had the solicitor ascertained from the plaintiff that it was alright for him to just check with the bank this could easily have been done, and if the bank had given authority by the plaintiff for . +So really it's understood in these allegations that you're saying that the solicitors should have invited your client to provide them with the authority to to write to the bank. +Yes, after. +And get independent independent confirmation from the bank, independently from their own client. +Either that my Lord or, er as it's pleaded in in the alternative, should have advised the plaintiff to do that, to get that confirmation in writing and in any event, even if it is alleged as the defendant say that the er that Mr is an experienced man of business and both these plaintiffs were purchasing the business, er and Mrs it is the plaintiff's case was clearly entitled to that advice in addition. +Well that is the first area er in which it is alleged the breach of duty on the part of the defendant. +The second area is the failure to advise the plaintiff as to their right to rescission of the contract in the event of the landlord's licence not being obtained and the vendor being unable to complete. +My Lord the plaintiff's case, as you can appreciate, is that Mr had very clearly, on several occasions in mid October, er requested a way out of this contract there was a way out er under the terms of the contract by service of special notice to complete erm and yet he had been told that there was no way that they could withdraw from the contract. +Er, the plaintiff's case is that there was a duty to advise them of the opportunity er which arose, from the refusal of the landlords to grant a licence for assignment erm and that their failure er to er give that er advice was in breach of duty and my Lord on page eighty five of the pleadings summary er page eighty five my Lord again er in answer to the the request for what advise it is alleged the defendant should give the plaintiff on the twenty second of October nineteen ninety five, at the top of the page. +The answer is that the advice that should have been given in the circumstances that prevailed on that date was, that if the plaintiffs wished to ignore the contract then they were entitled to serve a completion notice which because the vendor was unable to obtain that would have meant that the vendor would be unable to comply with the completion notice and accordingly the contract would have come to an end. +Now my Lord the defendants say of course, that they were never asked by the plaintiff to get him out of the contract so that the duty er never arose. +But they also say in the alternative that that since the plaintiffs themselves were at this time by mid to late October of nineteen eighty five, not ready or able to complete it would have been improper erm for the defendant to advise the plaintiffs to serve a special notice to complete and my Lord the question that therefore arises er whether, even if that were correct, er and it's not admitted that it is, that exonerates the defendants from given the advice er and whether they should still have advised the plaintiff erm of the opportunity which was open to him, that the plaintiff could if necessary take that course himself or be advised to go er elsewhere and be advised independently is er this is, this the point of the matter which he regarded as improper and was not willing to do it on the plaintiff's behalf. +The case of the plaintiff is that he should still have been told and advised about the er availability of this provision, particularly when he was clearly er fearful of the financial consequences to him of completing this and when he was expressing those fears forcefully er to Mr . +My Lord er obviously all the allegations of breach of contract and negligence are denied and er in paragraph six of the statement of claim on page nine. +The plaintiffs claim that they suffered loss and damage as a result of the defendants breach of contract er my Lord erm essentially having completed on this purchase they then tried er to run the business financially and in accordance with the terms of the lease, erm but it's all been the plaintiff's evidence that right from the start erm he was well prepared that there was insufficient working capital and insufficient funds er to run this business properly and efficiently and indeed shortly after purchasing it advice was sought about er re-sale and er if your Lordship looks at page eighty eight of the pleadings bundle which twenty one the plaintiff's case on page eighty eight, the top of the page my Lord. +It is said that the plaintiffs endeavoured to run the business because of the negligent advice received by them from Mr on the twenty second of October the plaintiffs were unable to withdraw from the contract. +They therefore faced no option other than to make a go of the business. +The alternative was either not to commence running the business or to cease running the business shortly after completion which would have meant in either case that the landlord would foreclose on the lease and the plaintiff's investment in the business would have been entirely lost. +Faced with that dilemma the plaintiffs chose to endeavour to run the business to an early sale and that is what they did my Lord and er the premises were put back on the market er in the early part of nineteen eighty six and er it is pleaded that er in in paragraph six statement of claim, that in May er a buyer came forward but that sale did not go ahead er because there were unreasonable delays on the part of the purchaser erm and er the deal fell through but then again in July er after the business had ceased trading, another buyer was found and then there was a lengthy period of negotiations at the conclusion of which the sale price was reduced because at that stage the plaintiff's landlord was going to increase the rent er and the plaintiffs were at that stage under threat of forfeiture and eventually contracts were exchanged on the sixth of November nineteen eighty six the sale price being eighty one thousand five hundred and er completion was on the fifth of December nineteen eighty six. +My Lord the er plaintiffs allege that they suffered considerable losses as a result of er their completion of er the purchase of this business. +Their case is that if they had been properly and correctly advised as they were entitled to be under the contract, they would not have proceeded to exchange or to completion. +If they had been advised as to the necessity for clear offers in writing with terms set out from the bank, their case is that they would have taken that advice, they would have waited for the bank offer and if and when it had not been suitable for them they would not have exchanged and their case is also that er once things had gone er very badly wrong and they wanted to get out of the contract if they had been advised as to the way out er then er they would have been er of that, they would have served notice and they would have got out of the contract. +Their case is that they were effectively forced to er complete unwillingly without the or the finance to make a go of the business and they suffered the losses which are claimed er set out in heading form initially on page sixty two of the pleadings bundle in further and better particulars. +and your Lordship'll see that erm figures are there set out which represent the losses incurred during the trading during that year from er November to December nineteen eighty five nineteen eighty six. +The loss on the sale of the business er various selling purchased expenses, loss of the profit, potential profit on their home,, the cost of borrowing er loss of earnings of the plaintiffs, loss on surrender of insurance policies er and er then some unspecified sums relating to pension and credit worthiness and ill health and loss of business My Lord those er headings are taken from and dealt with in er, much more detail in the report prepared by the expert's accountant Mr for the er plaintiffs which is of course in the erm bundle C the third bundle. +Sorry, bundle three, part A. My Lord er again on page eighty one of the pleadings bundle the er plaintiff set out erm in their answer to request number nine on page eighty one what they say er about what happened to their business. +On page eighty one, as at the twenty fifth of September nineteen eighty five the plaintiffs did not have any confirmed offer of finance, thus they were unable to achieve completion unless the bank offered the finance in accordance with the telephone conversation of the twenty fourth. +The plaintiffs were ultimately only able to complete on the basis of the terms subsequently offered by the bank which were financially disadva disadvantageous and effectively deprived the business of any chance of surviving because of the lack of operating capital and er many of the losses which are set out on page sixty two erm are based on that intention and are dealt with er in full +This is what sort of business a w wine bar did you tell me? +Sorry my Lord. +What sort of business was it? +It was a wine bar and restaurant. +And restaurant. +Yes. +My Lord er more detail about the nature of the losses which were incurred appear on erm page sixty seven of the further and better particulars. +Sixty seven of the pleadings bundle which are the further and better particulars this year and you can see that er looking back to page sixty six, what the plaintiffs have been asked to state was to give particulars of the change in financial position which had been outlined to Mr on the telephone and er your Lordship will see first of all that in answer eighty little A, there is a reference to er a letter of the twenty seventh of February nineteen ninety two which was a letter from the plaintiff's solicitors to the defendant's solicitors which, this is been incorporating in the front or ought to be in the bible, erm I don't think it has been but there are copies if I can hand your Lordship it was missed out in error I am sorry . +My Lord will see that there are details given erm as to the er financial requirements of the plaintiff. +So what is said is this. +Our client's initial requirements were for a loan of eighty six thousand pounds being sixty thousand pounds for the business and a further twenty six thousand pounds on house mortgage to cover any monies the bank had required our client to provide overdraught facilities were also required. +The bank provided finance for our client to exchange contracts, this the deposit, and then subsequently the attempt to obtain full security over their proposed lendings by including security over a property at Frinton on Sea which had been left in part only to our client upon his father's death. +Our client had it in telephone conversation with the bank on ninth of September only proceeded with the proposed purchase on the express understanding that Frinton property was not to be included particularly as his father's companion a Mrs eighty years of age, was residing in the property and owned a half share of it. +Furthermore our client had given Mrs through solicitors an undertaking at the time of the transfer of his late fathers half share interest to himself, that he would not use the property for purposes of charges being placed upon it. +The bank were aware of this. +In order to comply with the directions being given by Mr to our client to rearrange his finances, your client's letter in May er a buyer came forward but that sale did not go ahead in which to put your finances in order. +Our client met his bankers on twenty second of October and was only able to obtain funding as follows. +The bank would give him facilities to purchase the business to the extent of seventy five thousand pounds if he agreed to sell his property at and from the proceeds of sale to repay the bridging facility in its entirety and they would provide a sixteen thousand pounds business loan and overdraught facilities to be reduced by five thousand pounds within a few days and if the six thousand pounds rent deposit was not required then the business loan would be reduced to ten thousand pounds. +The bank finally agreed to loan sixteen thousand pounds for the business plus overdraught facilities and a further nine thousand pounds secured on our client's home repayable over five years, any further mortgage over a future was to be arranged elsewhere and my Lord er will hear that in fact the, having the sale of their home having been completed on the fifth of December the plaintiffs were then homeless for some three months living with their daughter until such times as they were able to arrange a mortgage on their present property with the Halifax. +and er move into that new home. +And er the er those figures are really set out again er repeated in the further and better particulars which appear on page sixty seven and page sixty eight. +They're really setting out in in great detail what is contained in that letter. +My Lord the er defendants deny erm that er if there was any breach of contract or negligent on their part as that caused the losses which are claimed and also er do not admit any of the losses or damage er I consider the damage which was claimed by the plaintiffs. +My Lord erm there are er in my submission er a likely there were to be five key issues for determination in a court of this trial. +That the first issue erm were the defendants in breach of contract in failing to, as is admitted, a unitary stat unitary authority and County Hall is made in a unitary stat unitary authority and County Hall is made into a be put to be theirs. +provided from the bank. +Er, the second issue is did the plaintiff, Mr ask Peter to get him out of the contract between exchange and completion er that is clearly in dispute but if he did then the further issue is this, were the defendants in breach of contract in failing to advise the plaintiffs at a stage as to the effects of national condition of sale twenty two two and a way out of the contract which was open to him. +Er, four er if the plaintiffs had been so advised, would they have taken er that way out thereby the contract and fifthly, if the defendants er were in breach of contract and your Lordship decides all those questions in the plaintiff's favour then er what is the basis on which they are to be awarded damages. +My Lord the er plaintiff's case is that you must er appertain now the actual situation of these plaintiffs and compare it with the situation that would have prevailed if the breaching of contract alleged, had not occurred. +Now the case . +The damages I suppose might be different, depending which er what kind of breach you succeed on. +Yes I think that may be right my Lord, indeed er if we succeed on the way out, get get out of the contract point then of course the plaintiff's case is that they would have taken that advice and would not have entered into the contract a and therefore on that basis they are entitled to be compensated on the basis that all the losses they unnecessarily incurred by having, being forced to complete, should be recoverable, subject to er litigation of loss and . +But that's the basis on which they erm content er it is also their case that . +Well, what would that damage be in er? +Well my Lord in my submission it is all those items which are claimed, the trading losses of having to run the business erm operating at a loss for that trading year er the loss on resale. +The loss of profit because they had been compelled to sell their home in order to complete on the purchase and the cost of borrowing and er the ancillary matters that are set out in the claim and dealt with by the accountant. +It is the plaintiff's case that all those losses were losses they would not have incurred erm had there been no breach of contract. +Because had there been no breach, the contract would never have been entered into in the first place and the er plaintiffs will rely upon that erm recent court appeal decision between and er against where the court of appeal indicated that if you are dealing with a case where the plaintiff was saying had there been no breach of contract, this is a transaction we would never have entered in to then the plaintiffs are entitled to recover compensation on that basis. +Erm, on the basis that they should be put back into the position that they would have been had there been no breach. +Now erm I understand that, talking to my learned friend Mr this morning, that erm he will be contending for a different approach as to the basis of compensation. +Namely, he will be inviting your Lordship to er look at whether or not the business the plaintiff's would have failed in any event er because it is the defendants case relying er extensively upon the opinion of their expert Mr er that even if the plaintiffs had had the finances which were originally anticipated and had completed the deal in accordance with that, the probabilities are that this business would have failed in any event and that they would have incurred the losses they did er so I anticipate there is going to be a dispute between us as to the basis in which your Lordship is to determine compensation in this case. +Er, my Lord I have to say that as far as the expert evidence from the accountant is concerned it is only Mr who has er offered an opinion, expressed an opinion upon that issue. +The plaintiff's accountant Mr confines himself to quantifying the heads of loss and doesn't speak with reference to the er allegations that are made in any way. +It is erm alleged, it is to be alleged as I understand it by the er defendant relying on Mr opinion that the business would have failed in any event er because of the plaintiff's general lack of experience in this trade and what is described as a lack of financial expertise or caution er to which the availability of extra money as envisaged in the original proposal, would have made absolutely no difference. +Er, my Lord er I my observations on that issue at this point be that erm it seems to be the defence case that for the purposes of er the defendants avoiding a duty to advise the plaintiffs as to the need for clear financial offers their terms from the bank, Mr was an experienced man of business and er had considerable financial acumen for the purposes of considering er whether under the banks original proposal for finance he would have been successful, they would be trading as a financial disaster. +Er my Lord er the second observation I make about erm Mr opinion erm and the facts upon which it is based is that his opinion is hotly disputed er, not least because of what it would be submitted is the highly speculative nature of this enterprise er, when you are being asked to consider with the benefit of hindsight, whether or not a business entered into some eighty years ago, was likely to have failed and er it is also an exercise which in my submission is entirely irrelevant if your Lordship would find the basis of compensation which I contend for is the one because the logic of not having to become involved in any investigation of whether or not this business would probably have been unsuccessful in any event. +erm My Lord there is one other matter erm, which we invite your Lordship to deal with now erm, a at this point before the case proceeds further and that is this. +My Lord there was an an order on the summons for directions erm in August of nineteen ninety erm, provided for experts report to be disclosed with expert evidence to be limited witnesses or each party. +My Lord in addition to erm the evidence from an expert accountant dealing with er the plaintiff had obtained expert opinion erm on the extent of the duty owed by the defendant in this sort of situation. +It is an expert er report prepared by a partner of the solicitors firms who has since qualifying been dealing primarily with commercial and residential conveyancing . +Erm, my Lord the defendant's solicitors were told in correspondence that we would be calling a conveyancing expert. +This report was disclosed in accordance with the direction of the trial on the twenty sixth of September of this year er the defendant had not obtained er a report themselves. +Erm, that report is not in the bundle of documents before your lordship at present because we were notified er er as as the sixteenth of November er that thetted, a unitary stat unitary authority and County Hall is +What is a conveyancing expert? +My Lord the er +Solicitor who conducts conveyancing. +My Lord the the report deals with the extent of the duties which are by solicitors engaged in commercial conveyancing,er the duties that is practice and is adopted by a majority of solicitors in this field, which relates to the extent of the duty to to financial security and to advise as to er the availability if asked, of the way out of the contract and the meaning of and interpretation of the national agreement of sale. +Now my Lord the report er in my submission goes to the issues which are at the heart of this . +The rule i in my submission is that expert evidence is admissible er where there are matters at issue before the court which require expertise for the analysis and these criteria to be satisfied in my submission are that first of all the evidence must be relevant, and secondly the witness must be competent to give it. +Ar are you saying that the defendant was, or ought to have been a conveyancing expert himself? +Mr +My Lord Mr was a conveyancing, the defendants firm are a a firm which specialise in commercial conveyancing matters and Mr was an experienced solicitor within that field and therefore the report addresses the duties to be owed by somebody working in that field and advising clients as to what the extent of the duty is. +Er, and my Lord er in my submission there is er no good reason why your Lordship should not receive that in evidence. +The reports from solicitors dealing with with matters of what are professional standards and duties in this particular field are er regularly accepted in evidence in these courts in order to determine those matters. +My Lord we are not dealing here er with erm general principals. +For example where it is alleged that a solicitor . +Are you seeking to introduce er some solicitors practice rules of some kind? +Well, there's nothing, as I understand it there is nothing in the Law Society guidelines but there are certainly references in the professional conduct guidelines which Mr has referred to in the course of this report er which referred to the extent of solicitors in the situation. +And that's all part of the the evidence, the expert evidence that he will give. +And this, are the prof professional conduct guidelines in dispute as they apply here? +Well my Lord, all we know is that erm when the report was served on the defendant it then came through court they were going to have to call Mr and then last week it was suggested er that er not only did they not agree but that they were going to try to prevent it being admitted in evidence. +I know no further erm than that. +Er, but it may your Lordship if you hear what my learned friend's objections are to er the report going in. +Yes. +My Lord er the basis of this objection is that this evidence is not admissible under a sign of authority and erm I wonder if I could start er my submission on this by referring to er on evidence. +In er chapter enth of November er that thetted, a unitary stat uni witnesses are admissible what if or experience. +The principles as civil proceedings and the topic is now run by it goes on and that mainly deals with criminal material and then one can pick it up at paragraph thirty two er seventeen when er the authors addressed themselves to to civil proceedings er and that er following passage deals with effects of the civil evidence act and the relevant procedures and then moving on my Lord to er to in fact, thirty two thirty nine on page eighty hundred and twenty nine the expert has furnished the judge or jury with the necessary scientific criteria for testing the accuracy of her conclusion so that to enable the judge or jury to perform their own independent judgement by the application of these criteria to the facts proved in evidence. +That er goes on in relation to er criminal matters again and er er paragraph three hundred and thi , thirty three forty one er it picks up the subject of expert testament, namely er science, art, trade, technical terms, handwriting, foreign law er the ensuing pages in fact deal with that and then at paragraph thirty two fifty one er in the er section of subjects which experts may not testify on. +The first is what we that passage, the questions of destruction whether of domestic, domestic or . +He should instruct particular terms of the . +The instructions that is the general rule . +For example when foreign documents relating to professional conduct the opinions of experts not sealable on disputes of policy in professional to etiquette to elucidate the rules of a particular profession, English law, morals and probability of human nature and all our opinions of law is that which English law though they may prove the proper costs of particular legal proceedings, neither expert or ordinary witnesses may give their opinions upon matters of legal or moral obligations or general human nature or the manner in which other persons would probably act in the interests and my Lord this director points at the policy it is in fact the authority admits which is Mr Justice then was. +This is a report at nineteen thirty nine the chancery reports one chancery at page three hundred and eighty four. +This was a solicitors pick it up and my Lord so you can, you can see what the dispute was. +Lot nineteen sixty one,an option to purchase your honour for three hundred and eighty five which at that time was at a rate of nine hundred pounds a year and they went to this friend of the firm of solicitors and there of the document which doubly signed and was dated March twenty four nineteen sixty one but my consideration one pounds penny by thereby granted to for the purchasing of . +The option is expressed and remained effective for ten years. +for one pound and unfortunately as he the option of the contract and on a number of occasions question whether he should exercise the option. +On seventeenth of August nineteen sixty seven object of defeating the option and having discovered through the result of his solicitors that the option had not been registered, sold and been paid the farm five hundred pounds and after the sale by registering the option under the land chartered act and on the sixth of October nineteen sixty seventeen could have exercised the option and neither or his wife complied with the notice and on March twenty eighth nineteen sixty eight wife died and on the twenty seventh of January nineteen seventy commenced proceedings against his father against his mother's executors the declaration of the option was . +On the eighth of February of nineteen seventy two died and on the eleventh of May seventy three died and the plaintiff's continued the action but the action failed so he was awarded damages from the sale of his estate and on the twenty first of July nineteen seventy two commenced an action against solicitors for negligence or breach of professional duty in detecting to register the option necessity of so doing. +limitation point er it was held at one of general or continuing duty obtain an independent firm of solicitors to the option on every occasion on which they were consulted as to a possible exercise on such occasions whether in fact be issued it goes on. +was imposed on the defendant client existed between the defendants were therefore liable to be taught. +The defendant contract for their negligence is omitting to register this option before the and just before that submission I wish to make. +Lord may I pick it up page four hundred and two erm at lesson B er there's a plea of breach of duty, this new plea does however raise the issue not of the original, not apparent on the original fee then what is the scope of the solicitor's duty that part of a particular aspect of a problem. +Is he entitled to confine himself to the particular matters for which he is retained to advise or was he to consider all the circumstances affecting the underlying data including hypothetical circumstances or risks which attention directed from one and not specifically sought. +as I've heard the evidence of a number of practising solicitors and Mr committed himself . +Mr no doubt of what is said to be the divine preference for called three. +I must say that I doubt the value as it seems to me become accustomed in cases of this type. +It is then the legal duty in any situation must I think the questions for the court, clearly there's not practice so accepted standards of conduct as laid down by the professional institute . +Evidence of that had thought to be at . +But evidence really amounts to no more than expression of the opinion by a particular practitioner of what he thinks that he would have done if he had been paid hypothetically without the benefit of hindsight the position of the defendant, with a little while the evidence of the witness is due, what in the matter of law the solicitor's duty was in the particular circumstances of the case, I should have thought, being a solicitor the very question which the functions, to decide. +the authority if I may refer you to it is the recent report of the British er Columbia Supreme Court erm courtesy of professional negligence er in the updating section it's a a . +Just, just one moment. +Yes. +My Lord British Columbia Supreme Court erm and er photocopied . +Erm, my Lord I don't think it's necessary to go through the rather complicated headland potentially gives you though I can see it from the er. +What the erm give me the reference again. +My Lord yes, nineteen ninety two, forty six B C L R open bracket two little d closed brackets, one six four. +Er my Lord it's rather a complicated of transaction and the the essential heading this case was that he failed to advise in relation to title er the person who goes from with respect to a land transaction he's entitled to expect that the lawyer investigates the state of entitlement to arrange the matter and to explain to the trial exactly what that is, what it is that is portrayed by the state of the title. +The defendants were negligent in breach of duty of not carrying out of that part of that duty. +And my Lord a short part I wish to refer you to and that is on page a hundred and seventy nine which is er the section when the judge was dealing with er the law of duty and the judge Mr Justice said during the trial I express some concern to what evidence has been called it is not necessary to refer to lawyers professional liability by . +The issue is whether or not the defendant's lawyer should have told his client about the state of the title and the risks arising therefrom and I didn't have any difficulty in coming to the conclusion on that matter without the aid of expert evidence and erm the judge then goes on to deal with the authorities. +My Lord er, the final part of er my submission on +Well that doesn't take us very much further does it +That particular case I don't know who this judge is judge what court is this in? +British Columbia Supreme Court my Lord. +It is approved er approval by er the editors of which is the the technical or professional negligence . +Yes. +My Lord there is a final part of our submission on on this is because I don't know whether your Lordship has a copy of the report this is the report of the fact that My Lord erm what I wish to refer you to if I may, is erm that paragraph three one of the report which is erm that solicitors and er he instructed himself er from the law society who told him that the law society in paragraph three page five, don't issue any specific directional guidance duty of care in relation to the plaintiffs transaction, the Law Society view obligation to be have to be considered on the basis of and he then goes on from there to to depart from that approach to speculate as to what his approach would be erm +But he goes on, he goes on and the body of his evidence my Lord is to speculate as to what he would have done and what Mr should have done in the circumstances of this er case and reference is made to the professional conduct guide in paragraph three two. +guide but what we do dispute is the relevance that erm this solicitor is seeking to give . +So what we say on on the basis of Mr Justice er victory Nat West and Midland bank and the er authority in er that this evidence is not in this report, doesn't assist you and what is relevant is +What, what evidence? +The evidence of what's in the guide to professional conduct. +We would not object to the guide my Lord but what we would object to don't object to the guide my Lord but what we do object to is is what this er solicitor would have done in relation to it + +I wouldn't entirely agree, that the whole, that all of the purchasers are entirely just because of er their age +no, no +don't think you become entirely vulnerable just because you age, I hope not anyway +so, so do I, but er at the same we said this much to Mr that you would except that many of the people who the company deal, deal with are old and concerned with a limited income on fixed pensions, you know that don't you? +the, the majority of the people the company deal with certainly are er pensioners +yes +they come from all types of er social backgrounds +I'm sure, but they're many of them are concerned about their budget because they live off a fixed pension +I don't know what the, the figures would be, er many of the residence actually had, had a considerable amount of er capital, because they had traded down into these properties +erm, I understand that they might trade down, but equally there are a number and I can take you to the letters written to the if you like, are you saying you didn't realize that many of these people would have to budget, carefully budget +I, I'd just, I'm not agreeing with the situation many, I'm not saying there wasn't anybody, clearly people were +some +some people were on fixed incomes +right +as I am +well now let's, let's go back to it, some people might rely on their savings and some might of been mislead, that's correct +as I said earlier I don't believe anybody should of relied purely on the brochure, they had legal advisers +oh I understand. +Does it say anywhere in this brochure, do not rely on what is in this brochure, but contact your solicitor who will have more information, does it say that anywhere? +it doesn't say about contacting a solicitor, but er, er each er purchaser had a solicitor appointed and further information was provided to that solicitor +obviously we will come to that. +But Mr if you know that in the real world ordinary people will often rely on statements in a brochure like this, don't you agree?, that's the object of it +I, I don't know, I certainly wouldn't rely on just a sales brochure if I was making a major trans +no of course you wouldn't, I don't suppose Mr would, but the whole purpose of a brochure like this, is not necessary a dishonourable purpose, it's a hook the punter, to use Mr elegant word, he want to make it so simple to hook the punter and make him or her say to himself that's where we want to live and set their heart on it, that's all the purpose of this brochure in it? or is the +yes it is, it's part +it's like the television advertisement +it's part of the sales process, yes +yeah +yeah well I mean so sure saves umbrage of course you didn't you'd be, er, I'm sure much more er careful, but then you're an experience er business man in the flash of youth. +Mr so glad er generous compliment from my Lord +do you want to ask him something? +if you were aware that er when you voiced your concern Mr did clearly agree with you, right? +subsequently in that instruction yes +in your or about the break of nineteen eighty seven +er correct +but equally we now know until the Daily Telegraph published its article on the ninth of January nineteen eighty eight, some of these brochures with this representation or claim was still in circulation to the general public you know that? +I've heard that evidence given, yes +well Mr says he discovered that after the Telegraph article and to document of the papers that relates to it that supports that, did you discover that too? +I didn't personally discover that +well if it was your concern that wanted that sentence out, was it your concern to see that the brochure was withdrawn? +no, I'd voiced my concern and I understood the instruction had been given for the brochures or for that particular part of the brochure to be withdrawn and +would it help for my Lord and the jury who's business would it be to ensure that it was withdrawn, who's business? +Mr gave the instructions +that doesn't answer my question, who's business would it be to ensure that the brochures were withdrawn? +ultimately the sales and marketing director +who was at the time? +Mr +thank you so have we got this right beyond measure in the chain, the responsibility in the group of companies, you bring to the attention of your board and ultimately to Mr the fact of your concern about the centre piece +correct +he gives the instruction, the brochure should be withdrawn +correct +and it was Mr task to ensure that it's carried out +as I understand it, yes +thank you,Now I go back to the table, let's try and er get down to some specific example, when would er, when was priced Westcliff on Sea?, when, when was that begun to develop er Mr +er, I believe it would have been nineteen eighty five +nineteen eighty five and we can see the picture of it, or a drawing of it on page seventy, I haven't looked to see how many apartments there is +a hundred and thirty nine +a hundred and thirty nine, so, oh yes I see it page seventy seven it tells us I think how many, a hundred and thirty nine, and this is obviously a pretty big development +certainly is, yes +is it at the top end of the, it starts at the top end of the slope? +it would be yes +and again approximately how long would it take er from the commencement of the building to completion, er approximately +er in this particular case it was released in phases so +yes +it's probably, it, it may of been up to three years +I understand and you were responsible at all times for the figures which estimated the maintenance order and management services? +correct +were there a number of brochures therefore printed sir? +I believe the brochure had been updated, yes +you believe, well what are we looking at here, page seventy eight, it's been produced by er for are we looking at the first brochure, or an updated version or what? +I imagine this is the first version +why, why do you imagine? +because it, er because these statements still contained within it +oh you mean the statement? +correct +well how often did you update the figures for home ?remembering when started in nineteen eighty five +I don't recall the actual month the scheme opened in nineteen eighty five +no +I believe it was towards the end of the financial year, the figures probably would have been updated at er the end of nineteen eighty six +so when would the first figures be given by you for the purpose of printing, approximately +probably early in nineteen eighty five +what was, before the Spring? +probably er Winter to Spring nineteen eighty five +you mean the Winter of eighty four, five?, +Christmas eighty four +say January eighty five +right, in or about January eighty five? +yes +I'm not tying you to a specific month, but about January nineteen eighty five you would give the figures for the printing of the first brochure +correct +when would the last sketches er be around so to speak in broad terms to, to look for about +oh, because there were so many units it was er a long selling period +approximately what year were talking to? +it probably would have sold out in nineteen eighty eight +eighty eight so are you saying the brochure was reprinted between nineteen eighty five and nineteen eighty eight?, by +I imagine the first reprint would have been erm +er it doesn't matter if you know +no I don't know, but I, I, I imagine the er first reprint would have been September nineteen eighty six +well as the person responsible for giving this information to the public you would, you would be anxious to get it as accurate as possible wouldn't you? +it would have been updated in September eighty six +can I come back to the question if, you see if you don't answer it I'll repeat it, you as the person responsible for the figures would be anxious to make sure they were reaching the public accurately +correct +thank you. +If you gave these figures in January nineteen eighty five, approximately by when would they be out of date and inaccurate and would require updating?, approximately when? +they would have been updated in September nineteen eighty six +oh, they may of been updated then, the question I asked you was a different one, when was the moment when they became inaccurate? +er, I, I can't say that they became inaccurate, they may well have been entirely accurate for the whole of the period from when they were first produced through to September nineteen eighty six +what for twenty one months? +yes, because it's only when the scheme actually starts to operate that you can er get a clear picture of what the cost are going to be, they are budgets, they are estimates and until you start incurring costs you can't be absolutely certain as to how the costs are gonna end up +I see, when would you start knowing what the actual costs were, when would you start knowing ? +er towards the end of the first full financial year +give a month for the year please +September eighty six +you're saying until then you won't have no idea if these figures will be accurate or inaccurate +that would be the most appropriate time to determine that, yes +are you saying you wouldn't know whether they were accurate or inaccurate until twenty one months later? +I would say that they were accurate when they were produced and there produced on the basis of accuracy at the time and they would be reviewed after the first financial period +are you saying, er, I'll put it a third time, are you saying or not that you do not know whether the figures that you published are accurate until twenty one months later?, is that what you're saying? +the figures were accurate when they were produced and the figures +how could they be accurate if they are an estimate? +well they are an estimate of what we believe the running cost would be +that's a different matter, when do you know whether they're accurate?, twenty one months later +after the first er effectively after the first financial period +twenty one months later +in this case, yes +well in your experience, after the first financial year, did the figures require adjustment? +they would require adjust because we're then looking towards the next twelve months +would they require adjustment? +they would require adjustment for looking ahead, yes +do you as a person responsible for the figures, ensure that they were adjusted? +they would have been adjusted, yes +yes, I'll ask you the question again, did you as the person responsible for these figures, ensure that they were adjusted? +I would have requested the adjustments to be made yes +to whom would you make that request? +to the er sales and marketing people at +of whom Mr is the most senior manager, at the time +at the time, yes +so speaking from your knowledge, you would have made the request in or about September nineteen eighty six that should be updated? +correct +and provided it with a +correct +in order that the first brochure be published? +yes +was that done? +as far as I can recall +what is there in this brochure that tells me whether it's the first edition, the second edition or the third edition? +in this brochure it doesn't +it doesn't who's responsibility would it be to see that the old brochures were withdrawn and the new brochures were put on in there place? +sales marketing, Mr ultimately +Mr with hindsight yeah, I think you would accept Mr a clearly, clearly is a vital thing to preserve the integrity of good name of to make sure if humanly possible these brochures are accurate and updated as possible, you'd agree with that? +in hindsight I would +yeah and since the Daily Telegraph article indeed system has changed as you say, hasn't it, in eighty nine? +many systems have changed since then +no this system +this system +about updating these figures +this system amongst others, yes +maybe many others systems have changed +indeed +but in terms of what goes in the costs of the management charges in the brochure the systems changed since the Telegraph article hasn't it? +yes +and the changed is to have those charges automatically updated once a year +correct +so let's go back to home for a moment you say it was updated or should of been updated twenty one months later, as the first update +yes +was it updated a second time or did you ask for it to be updated a second time? +I can't recall precisely but I, I imagine yes it would have been up, I would have asked for it to be updated at September eighty seven as well +well please don't rely on imagination would it of been part of your duty to ensure it was updated in September nineteen eighty seven? +yes +are you in possession, that you're aware of any documents where you issue a request for the brochure to be updated in September nineteen eighty six or September nineteen eighty seven is there any document either in your possession or one you would get by another, from your request for updating these brochures +if it's not already been disclosed, probably not +take it from me that I haven't seen one and if there is one I'd be grateful if somebody on your site would point it out, but to my knowledge no such document has been disclosed. +Would it be done by a document? +it would normally, if I recall correctly at the time, there would normally been a memorandum listing new charges for each development +exactly, so it would be a document issued by the by you the with the intention of what Mr and in effect update brochure here and in charge +it wouldn't of gone directly to Mr no it would have gone to his er regional sales staff +who would you send it to? +it would have gone to whichever region the sales manager responsible or the regional managing director +well who would it go to ? +it would have gone to either the sales manager or the regional managing director of the Eastern region of at the time +names please nineteen eighty seven +I can't recall +will you promise to have a look er will +there were a number of changes of er, in that position of regional managing director +no, no, but were would the documents be in ? +I don't know, if they haven't been disclosed I, they, they probably have not been retained. +Can you lay your hands on the second and third addition of the brochures then?, if there were a second and third edition +I personally don't keep copies of all of the brochures +no, no, it was just a bound to be a cos you see, let me explain something to you until you gave evidence today, certainly I didn't and maybe others didn't realize in this court room that what were looking at is that one edition of the brochure which may of had several editions, do you understand? +yes +and you Mr revealed something new, I hope you don't , there may of been two if not three editions +of the costs possibly +well you said the brochure had been reprinted +why I don't think the whole brochure would have been reprinted +page two +I'm talking about the er +page two +the changes to the costs +well is page seventy one, which you're will be reprinted and it would require a what is it of er page seventy eight +yes +so there are two pages what would have required a reprint, seventy one and seventy eight +yes +the first reprint should of occurred twenty one months after the brochure was first printed and the second reprint about twelve months later +I believe that to be true +and the person ultimately responsible ensuring that happened of the system would be Mr is it? +well ultimately I guess, there is a regional managing director for each region who would er be responsible for their region +are you able to help this jury with this simple matter, to your knowledge, on this development, on a hundred and thirty eight or so apartments did you see the second addition of this brochure and the third?, did you personally ever see it? +I don't recall +but this whole case is about management and service charges and you're person who erm assess them for the purposes of the brochure, you say you don't recall whether it's the second or third addition ever seen by you? +not, not specifically, no +let me ask you something else on a development Mr I when I watched use the er help from time to time there are major items of expenditure, after the properties built, correct +correct, yes +let me give you one example, there are many of these developments had flat roofs didn't they?, not all of them, but some had flat roofs +a minority, yes +a minority, they were covered with felt rather than ash felt were they not? +in some cases, yes +they would require replacing every seven years would they not? +seven to ten years would be normal +other major items of expenditure which would require replacement would be lift ropes is that right? +correct +corridor carpets +yes +car park tarmac +yes +boundary walls +yes +warden call systems +yes +and alarm systems +yes after different periods of time there not all +quite, quite obviously they don't all There was in nineteen eighty seven before the Telegraph article no contingency fund in your budget was there? +no +when did the contingency fund first come into the budget? +erm +approximately +we approximately the subject we had been looking at for some time so I approximately, nineteen eighty eight, nineteen eighty nine +oh no, it wasn't there at the time of the Telegraph article was it? +are you talking about this particular scheme? +I'm, no, no, no, I'm talking about the principal of putting in a contingency fund in the charges +well as I say I recall it would have been nineteen eighty eight, eighty nine, I can't recall precisely +after the Telegraph article +I believe that to be the case +thank you. +You thought it was a good idea didn't you? +yes +so it meant that for some time before contingency fund development was introduced you must of had some concerns er about the accuracy of the figures you were putting forward for the publication, can, can I explain that a little more?if after a few years a major repair needs to be carried out there was no contingency fund, it might mean sticking another two or three hundred pounds a year on the service charges, might it not, to cover a major repair +in prac er, in practice er it is unlikely that there would be any major repairs at the cost of the residence within the first eight to ten years +well you already agree with me that a flat roof might require replacing in seven +it might in general +might +generally ten years, I don't recall any, replacing any flat roofs of less than ten years +we needn't argue of seven or ten, but let's say eight, I don't care, but when that fell due it would mean wouldn't it, there would be a major charge to the there residence, whoever they were? +unless don't agree to pick up the cost +ah +which they often did +come on Mr don't generally pass on the cost +no, that is not correct, in many cases went well beyond what they were legally obliged to do +why, because it would have been unfair to charge the residence? +it depended on what the particular er problem was at the time, if something failed after four or five years it was then covered by insurance by the N H B C or by guarantees +I see let take it from the other end, why did you have to take the insertion of the contingency fund of the estimates +because I believe we should be planning for long term er to repair the +exactly, but why wait until nineteen eighty eight to discover that, how long had you been doing these estimates for?, how many years have you been doing? +on a limited number of schemes we have been doing the estimates for four or five years +no not we, you I'm asking Mr you have been doing estimates for four or five years have you? +yes +by nineteen eighty eight? +yes +so you, that was, you started doing them in about nineteen eighty three? +yes +and approximately how many sites would you have given estimates for between eighty three and eighty eight? approximate number +er, well that was changing all the time but we had erm like +but is it twenty, thirty, forty, I just don't know +oh it would be, been er probably eighty schemes +eighty obviously I'm not tying you to a figure we just want to get some idea, so seventy, eighty or ninety as maybe, about eighty schemes over five years you've given estimates for +yes +which didn't contain a contingency fund element +no +correct +the main, er the usual recurring cost was er redecorating cost which we had introduced a fund for on the outset +sorry can, can we get to the question again, want to see if I've got it right, correct me if I'm wrong, over the eighty schemes and the five years that you had put forward budgets for all, you hadn't included a contingency fund element? +that's correct +that's correct and it was your suggestion that a contingency fund should be introduced after the Telegraph part +in nineteen eighty, nineteen eighty nine, yes +yes, did that require the approval of Mr or not? +again that would have been a matter raised at our board and passed on +could you please answer the question, would your suggestion require the approval of Mr ? +ultimately, yes +did he approve it? +yes +readily or not? +yes, I don't recall any argument +right, Mr did it require his approval, as the, as it were officer in charge of brochures? +no +it didn't require approval +no +and with hindsight, although, don't think I'm being over critical, although you put forward eighty or so estimates for different schemes, with hindsight it's clearly more prudent and fairer and accurate, more accurate to have a contingency fund isn't it?, in the, in the budgetary cost +as a management principal one should include a contingency fund +yes +as earlier as is reasonably to do so +what, it didn't need eighty schemes did it to be launched before you introduced it, it's something you'd been wanting to do wasn't it? +something we considered that er +no, no, something you had been wanting to do, not we, you had been wanting to +yes I, I wanted to introduce a contingency fund +yes, had you met opposition to the introduction of that contingency fund? +no +well why wasn't it been done earlier? +because I didn't +I didn't raise it earlier +I see. +You spoke to Mr er the journalist concerned didn't you? +correct +did you ever raise with him back in January nineteen eighty eight something that you and Mr had both raised before, namely that what goes into the brochure is not to be relied on you've got to look at the solicitors correspondence, to interpret what is in the brochure, did you?, did you ever raise that with Mr the solicitor's correspondence? +I don't recall that being a subject of my conversation, er +is the answer no you didn't raise it with Mr ? +er we were given very little opportunity to raise anything with Mr +is the answer you did not raise it with Mr ? +only because there was no opportunity +Huh, er just, please help us, you know we get on much better, of course you can give an explanation, all Mr wants, you requested is said whether you did raise it, of course you could say, we didn't, I didn't because erm of so and so, because there wasn't an opportunity or whatever, but do tell us whether yes or no whether you raised it surely that's possible Mr isn't it?, isn't it?, am I trying to assist you, during my people are just not answering the questions, put it again in blunt form Mr would you please +well the questions a very simple one, back in January nineteen eighty eight, on any occasion you spoke to Mr either before or after the first article did you ever raise this question with the solicitors letter? +no +thank you +we give it if you say why? +will you turn to page find one, thirty four,What we're looking at is the accounts for Westcliff on Sea, the year ending thirty first of August nineteen ninety two, last year +correct +look please at item four, on page one, three, four second paragraph,the contingency fund is designed to provide funds in order to pay for major repairs or replacements which may arise in the future these accounts do not include the contingency fund despite strong recommendations from , can you explain please Mr ? +yes the residence association at er did not agree to the introduction of a contingency fund +I see, so you weren't able to have a contingency fund at +there is one there now, but we weren't able at the time, no +at the time had you been strongly recommending it since eighty eight? +we, eighty eighty to eighty nine as I +yeah +say can't recall, we would have been recommending contingency fund +you you would +yes +yes I understand Mr very much. +You erm stay with T one, three, four please just so that we er understand the point you're making and I would ask you if you'd be so kind as to keep your voice well up. +These are the er accounts that Mr put to you, are they audited accounts? +Yes they are +are they provided for the residence at +each residence gets a copy +we can see at the bottom of one, three, four bearing in mind that these are the August nineteen ninety two accounts, we see at the top of one, three, four that there have in fact been an adjustment there for the previous year to August nineteen ninety one so that there was in fact an amount of surplus created to the residence of a hundred and eight pounds, eighty P, is that right? +that's correct +so that the budgeted estimate for the previous year had been too high and there is an adjustment in favour of the residence for the following year +that's correct +when you've got a budget for an oncoming year, assuming you and I are here together in November ninety three and we're preparing a budget up till November ninety four, can you ever have precise figures which will be accurate to the last pound? +no, simply because it is an estimate +so that's your budget estimate, when we get to November nineteen ninety four you and I together we will then find out what has happened in practice +correct +in this particular twelve month period your budget estimate would be wrong in that you needed to pay the residence back a hundred and eight pounds +that's correct +well then, let's stick with contingency fund shall we?you've told us that you wish to have a contingency fund among others at +that's correct +a contingency fund will be a fund available for any particular unforeseen occurrence in the future +unforeseen or, or knowing expenditure, what is unforeseen is when the expenditure is going to occur +exactly, but who has to pay in to the contingency fund if it's agreed by the residence? +the residence have to pay +so their charges would go up if you had to have a contingency fund? +correct +does that go up as part of the management charge or part of the service charge which is not related to management? +it would go up as part of the service charge, the management charge would not change as a result +exactly +Are you leaving the accounts Mr ? +er my Lord I was going to +can I just ask him one question about it, erm, I'm not an accountant and you probably, I'm sure you know a lot more about accounts than I do, but in fact if you look at the revenue accounts for the year we're talking about ended August nineteen ninety two at page a hundred and thirty two, do you see that? +yes I do +you see there are two columns, the second column is budget, that right? +yes +and the first column, although it's not headed is, presumably actual expenditure, would that be right? +er yes +good, and if you rummaged over the details, if you look at the bottom er, you'll see er account, total costs a hundred thousand, sixty hundred and forty four pounds budget ninety six, eight, seven, four, so that er there in fact it looks as though the actual costs were something erm nearly four thousand pound er more than the budget, do you see? +yes +er, if you just to avoid doubt, it looks as though, as we presume we go back to one, three, four that's less than the income was the revenue from things like the guest room and er the lounge and so on , you see? +that's correct +so there you, you get on the accounts you get a, a er, apparently, income er extension of the scheme budget by nearly four thousand pounds, three, eight, then you go back with what Lord was asking you about and I just want you to explain it if you can, if you can't tell me, as he drew your attention to surplus per audited account at August ninety nineteen one, a hundred and eight, eighty, so that, in fact the year ending nineteen ninety two, along these accounts we're dealing with, in fact the expenditure of exceeded budget by nearly four thousand, the previous year er in nineteen ninety one er it had gone the other way that er +that's is +is that how I understand how it worked +entirely right +so you're talking about, the, the little note at the bottom of nine, of page one, three, four is not dealing with accounts er that relate to nineteen ninety two, which the rest of the three pages are, but dealing with the previous year, is that right? +it's, it's for the previous years accounts, yeah +yes it is +can we just erm clarify that Mr , of course it's dealing with the previous years accounts, but until you get to the end of the previous year are you going to know whether you've over or under est estimated on budget? +no, it's the same situation until you've complete the financial year and you audit the accounts you don't know precisely what the situation is +so if at the bottom of page one, three, four there is the benefit to the residence of a hundred and eight pounds, when does that come into consideration in the year ending August nineteen ninety one, or the year ending August nineteen ninety two? +they, they would normally of er received that during the year ending August nineteen ninety two +thank you. +We also see on page one, three, four and this is something you also mentioned Mr that if you've got certain costs they will be covered and you gave a number of examples, one of them you said, er, we were covered by insurance +yes +now we can see that at one, three, four, about a third of the page down, can't we? +yes +now who actually insured the premises that the residence live in +we insurance the premises on behalf of the residence +you insurance them centrally as it were and each resident has to pay part of the insurance cost? +through the service charge, yes +thank you, is that through the service charge or through the management charge? +through the service charge +thank you and we see here that erm one thousand eight hundred and fifty six pounds had been claimed, that one thousand eight hundred and fifty six pounds thirteen had been received so the insurance cover had paid +correct +you mentioned another protection which is the N H B C, that's, National House Building Council guarantee how long does that run for when a scheme, from the commencement of a scheme? +ten years +now at the end of the day, whatever your own views about a contingency fund are, bearing in mind that it's service, not management charged, if the residence don't agree can you simply dictate to them that they've got to have a contingency fund? +er, I'd believe in theory we could because the lease provides us or gives us the opportunity to do so, but we would not go against the wishes of the residence +thank you. +Now on the management charge which is what I want to ask you about, cos that's what you've said in the brochure, on the management charge, did you deliberately set the management charge too low to hook the punters? +absolutely not +shall we just look at one or two erm documents that you've already looked at please, would you go to page twenty nine, just the illustration that seen and this is the I'm not sure whether a point is going to be made about this or not, but if you look at page thirty one there there's a golf club on the left and a man fishing on the right +this is a golf club? +beg your pardon? +it's a golf club? +er, er I'm sorry we haven't had any evidence of that yet +I thought it was suggested that +yes, but he said he never, it was suggested but +oh I'm sorry I asked +Mr has great powers but he can't give evidence on this case +not on this occasion +no +let's assume that Mr is right in the suggestion he put to you about the building on the left, that it's a golf course and we can see for ourselves without any evidence there's a man fishing on the lake at the bottom there, were you trying to suggest that as part of the deal at a lake would be provided or a golf club? +no of course not +well what's the point of the lake?, that's what's been worrying me, I was going to ask Mr what is the punter supposed to see? +what do people do when they retire among other things, by way of amenities? +they play golf and go fishing +thank you and if you walked around to look at the flat, would you find a lake and whacking big golf course in the middle of it? +no +now let's erm just go on to something perhaps that's more to the point, you were asked on a number occasions er what information was given and so for and when, er can you see in fact on some of these documents that the brochures are indeed dated?, just look at er please, you can see that it's a printed brochure it's got a number of er additions and then we look at page thirty seven boldly state you have that as twenty sixth March eighty five, don't you? +correct +are you be able to tell us would that page at twenty six m , eighty five be part of the original brochure or part of something which erm was later brought out?, looking at the type and the print in the brochure, if you can't help us just say +I couldn't be sure on that point +look at erm page forty would you please, this is at if you look at page forty one there you've got people playing bowls at the top there, maybe another retirement activity and at the bottom of the page forty two it's dated nine eighty five +correct +so that indicates print date of September eighty five? +yes +now unfortunately at page forty two there's a sticker originally that says forty two, but just let's look at that shall we?, cos you were asked about what was said to people and what they might know or understand,while these particulars are prepared with all due care and the word that's been stuck over is convenience while these particulars are prepared with all due care for the convenience of intended purchases, the information contained therein is intended as a preliminary guide only +correct +did you know that was in the brochure?, that it was a preliminary guide only? +yes +and do we find that in fact on the other brochures, for instance at page fifty two, I don't want to go through them all, I'm only giving an example or two, page fifty two there you see, a sticker unfortunately er obscured in part, same words, bottom of fifty two,while these particulars are prepared with all due care for the convenience of the intend purchasers, the information contained therein is intended as a preliminary guide only +correct +now if someone therefore becomes interested in one of the developments, would they be any doubt buying the houses without having a solicitors assistance? +that would be most unusual +and even if they did buy without a solicitors assistance, what was the system about sending them the letter which we've looked at earlier which is at erm D one, five, two, remember this is the letter that goes to Mr solicitors assuming you get a very rare person who does his or her own conveyance +it would +does that letter still go them? +it would have gone to them and, rather to their solicitor, yes +one of the things at the bottom of one, five, two is the N H B C agreement that you mentioned with Mr +yes +so let's just look again at one, five, three please you see you were asked about whether or not the brochure would be updated and when it might be updated, in what particulars circumstances, do you remember Mr ? +yes I do +shall we just look at er item four on one, five, three, because this is er sent out on the seventeenth of June eighty five, right, see that at page one, five, two, and it says at four the service charge, the estimated service charge for these flats for the year ending thirty one August eighty five is and then the flats are set out there, three hundred and eighty two, five, seven, five and seven, six, four, that's all in respect of because we know this was an flat, we can see that from page one, five, two, but when, whether or not the brochure is updated when that letter goes out to their solicitors, have you seen other similar letters of this sort going out? +yes it's pretty well a standard letter that goes out +and if you're for instance dealing with a purchaser who's interested in buying around about December what was the system that you had about saying what the service charges might be?, +I mean do you relate to the brochure necessarily or does the +no +letter relate, does the letter relate to the time of purchase? +well the letter would relate to the time of purchase +thank you and it said there in apportionment, page one, five, three again,calculated from the date of legal completion to the end of the then current half year, will be collected on completion, please note that these are estimated only and will be retrospectively adjusted when audited accounts are available now we've seen the reflection of that in practice this morning haven't we? +correct +on the accounts for +yes +You were asked whether you told Mr about the solicitors letter +yes +did he ever ask you about what information was given to solicitors? +no +would there of been any problem at all in your providing it? +none what so ever +would you have been willing to provide it? +yes +how long was your conversation with Mr ? +approximately ten to fifteen minutes +had you had any opportunity to prepare yourself for the sort of questions he might be asking? +no, none +when you offered a meeting which does not seemed to be in dispute, either you're travelling to London or making yourselves available in Corma were you offering a ten minute conversation or were you anticipating that you would be able to deal with any questions he might have? +we were anticipating being able to explain in detail the entire procedure relating to accounting +when you say the entire procedure, would that of included or not a solicitors letter which is set out? +yes it would have done +did he show any interest at all in having those details provided for him? +he, he did not agree to a meeting +did he give you a reason why not?, did he say why? +because he had a deadline to meet +did he ever explain to you what the urgency of having to have the article in on the following Saturday was?, did he ev , did he ever tell you anything? +er no, not, he didn't explain the urgency +You spoke about what was said in the brochure that management charges had been or would be running at about a rate of inflation, we can see it on page fifty six, it's better if you look at it I think, rather than I parrot phrase, see fifty six if you so kind now see fifty six is talking about at Broadstone will the management charges greatly increase the answer is no management service, er, sorry has appointed U K leading management specialist for several reasons, firstly because of their professional caring attitude, secondly because time has shown that management charges, rises the rate either slightly below or at the levelled inflation when that brochure was produced in respect of that development was that statement true or was it not? +it was true +you were asked a few questions about the contingency fund, was setting up the contingency fund, had it got any connection at all with the Daily Telegraph article? +none what so ever +the Daily Telegraph article comes out in January eighty eight, was the updating or the answering of the brochures periodically anything to do with the Daily Telegraph article? +it was not +had the updating gone on at all before the Daily Telegraph article came out?which is in nineteen eighty eight +yes +did Mr ask you any of the questions about updating or the historical pattern that had been shown by management charges? +no +was there any discussion about the difference between the service charges and the management charge? +not at that time I recall +When you're dealing with people who may want to buy retirement homes, er how do you describe them?, they've been described by Mr as the punters you see, how'd you, what do you call them? +precedence, or prospective purchasers at the time +is that the way that treated people?, calling it hooking the punters? +not at all, they were customers +have you ever heard the word or the phrase hooking the punters, either at or or ? +never +if somebody comes as a resident to one of the developments that you now presently run are they there normally for years or for months? +they're normally there for years +if they're normally there for years, is there any purpose at all in trying to deceive them before they go and live there? +there wouldn't seem to be any purpose it, wouldn't be right +my Lord how that under my cross examination I don't know, I've never suggested that he was trying to deceive any resident +no, I, there's get, a little confusion coming into this case I think, I'm not blaming anybody, as I understand your case Mr as put to er as put to Mr , you have expressly disavowed any suggestion to this witness that there was any deliberate attempt to deceive any prospective purchaser +that is correct +what you, your case is as I understand it, I've only intervened cos I think the question didn't dis perhaps a lack of understanding this by Lord allow me to say so, what you're saying is that erm, in fact, although not intentionally you're prepared to accept the format of the brochure in relation to the on going charges was such as could reasonably be said by your newspaper to have mislead prospective purchasers +that is so +that is the point of the case +and +now the avoidance of doubt, when you've got to another aspect of the case quite different, namely the claim for special damages, you were suggesting to Mr that there, there was a deliberate attempt to and after all whereas you might not like my er use of the to swing on to the Daily Telegraph +yes +er the costs which would have been paid in any event that's all the case is +your Lord, your Lordship's got it absolutely right +I, I understand that my Lord, I +yes but you were, forgive me Lord you were asking him about deliberate er deceit or there wouldn't be any point in deliberately, get the exact word, misleading the prospective purchaser +of course because that's the way that the plaintiff's claim has and, and, and that's why +oh yes I understand it +and that's why it's A, sorry, that's why it's A relevant and B important +right, well, I'm, I'm not worried about the point as to whether it arise out of cross examination, I seldom am because there is always erm can be an opportunity for further cross examination if the other party wants to, so er on the grounds of the objection I, I, I don't uphold it you can ask that if you like, but er I do want the jury always to keep their eye on that what really is the issue in the case er certainly from the defendants point of view, I know what you say +but, erm the issue from the plaintiffs point of view of course is erm just +well you say the article meant that your clients were being accused of deliberate deceit +certainly +and in the end the jury will have to say which of the two versions of the meaning they except +and thereafter decide whether or not the meaning is made out +correct, good, now, so ask your, do ask your question +my Lord I've asked it and the witness has answered in fact +oh, good, huh, I assumed the answer was no +it was +I was listening to Mr , yes, thank you +yes, thank you Mr would you step down please +thank you +er one that occurs to me, no, no speaking on it myself, the jury might be interested, sometime I just like to get a feel of what a brochure looks like, not divided as it obviously has to be here, could, could we see a couple sometime, not, not now +yes +and then the jury, I can pass them to the jury, now then, sorry +no, no, my Lord I have three applications to make in the light of the evidence given by Mr yesterday and this witness today, er the first is this in terms of this witnesses evidence, I don't know whether your Lordship appreciated it, but I certainly did in terms of evidence, that in cases of some brochures there were a number of editions, in other words first, second and maybe third edition +well certainly I believe Mr he, I don't think he went into the same detail as Mr I, but Mr certainly left me the impression that some at least of the brochures were, went into more than one addition, yes +er, my Lord there has not been disclosed by the plaintiffs anything more than one copy of the brochure for each site we've got in the my Lord might I therefore formally call for disclosures of each addition of the brochures that the jury have them +well erm you can't no doubt do that at this moment, but I, I think it's as Mr undoubtedly said, quite apart from anything Mr said er, if there are a several addition er which strangest with the relation to the er important part from our point of view, or an important part mainly these residence on going charges, that sounds reasonable +good, er I think that's right, in fact erm a large number of brochures were in fact on our list of documents +yes +erm disclosed erm there are dates on some of them as I established +yes +in evidence +well could that be further looked into +oh certainly +and any +any copies of that +any suggestion because I think the jury would be interested particularly with the dates on them, but even if there aren't compare the figures in different editions +certainly, and my Lord my problem is I'd liked to see them before I cross-examine Mr the er, the next witness cos he, he was the the officer in charge of brochures, er I don't know whether the defendants can get, the plaintiffs can get them before but er, I mention it now, the second application my Lord, er your Lordship recalls that Mr evidence is at a meeting of , he brought up his concerns about the accuracy of the inflation sentence in the brochure and a board meeting in , no board meeting to that effect has been disclosed +no minutes you mean +no minute and I call for and ask your Lordship to order the production of any board minute meeting recording that concern of Mr +yeah +and more for completion the third application is this, yesterday Mr referred in his evidence +not yesterday +I beg your pardon, the last time before +yes, the day before yesterday +the day before, er Mr referred to in his evidence, you may remember to a company called +mm +the employer and I asked him what documents they produced, what report they produced we have written a letter about it, but I formally call for any report or document from and the second thing he mentioned were letters from about twelve members of parliament that they received +well I think he did say those ought to be in their file +my Lord +he said that, that they should be +but I, I, I call +yeah +for production of those letters from the twelve members of parliament +Lord you can't deal with that er at the snap of the fingers obviously, but I think you'd agree that er going from the number three upwards that if there is any reports from management er and if the letters from the members of parliament still exist in your clients file, they would be disclosable +well my Lord I, I simply don't know, erm +er no, if they don't exist so be it +I simply, I simply can't deal with the question because some of these are, are raised now for the first time +no I'm not, I'm sorry I said some of them are raised now for the first time, I was about to say I'm not complaining I'm simply pointing out, standing here without the instructions I can't deal with the matter +no, of course you can't now, but will you have enquiries made and if er, there are an existence of twelve members of parliament ledgers, any report from crisis management and any erm, any er, er minute of a board meeting er at er directors at which the contingency er, at the contingency fund was discussed or recor any recording of value, having enquiries make sure that they exist and then tell me er if, if, if you're prepared to disclose them +my Lord sir +that's all +yes +I don't expect you to do it before Monday anyway +no, no, my Lord of course I do +yes, I didn't think you'd make any objection at all cos +no I'm not +I'm not suggesting for a moment it doesn't cross my mind nor has Mr suggested that there has been any er deliberate failures to disclose something which was thought was, which you've got and was thought relevant, but it, things do turn out to be potentially relevant in the course of the court appearance +well I I'm happy to have those enquiries there +thank you , well you know the three categories, now what about erm, er, I'm very anxious to proceed today as far as we can, what about Mr er remind me erm reading with two and three er I'm afraid I've forgotten exactly what you, oh I know you wanted to know Mr, er before cross examine Mr you want to know about all the additions of the various brochures, is that right? +my Lord the officer is he's the wonderful from who is closest to the brochures and therefore +mm +responsible for er, I never realized until the witness gave evidence, the last witness that there were different additions +oh well I, I think it did, it did emerge but not so clearly, but it did emerge in Mr evidence +my Lord be that as it may, if there are one, two or three additions of the same brochures, of the same development, clearly we, we should be entitled to +oh +all that's been disclosed is one as far as I know, erm your Lordship can see that I at some stage need to have a look at them, er before I complete in any way so I can cross examine Mr er my Lord may I just say this, on the seventeenth of November, that's two days ago, we asked for the documents of the necessary twelve M P's two days ago +yes, but, er +I'm not complaining about it, but I say I didn't raise it for the first time +no, well, some of them might have been, don't do squabble about that +no, no, my Lord I have raised for the first time the board minute +yes +er my Lord it wasn't, I wasn't raising it for the purpose of your Lordship mentioned, er namely er er about er contingency fund, though indeed will be entitled to that, I raised a question of the minute, the board minute, to do with the concerned with Mr rest of the meeting about the placement +mm +that's why I was asking them for, I just want to make it plain my Lord +thank you +but my Lord that subject to that er I don't think we'll loose time because I'm sure by the time Lord has examined er Mr I'm going to reserve a little bit of cross examination, which is Monday +mm, mm in any event members of the jury I, I forgot to mention to you earlier, er, thank you Mr you probably feel a wisdom of this having done several days of this case, two and a half hours is just about as long as anybody can be expected to sit and listen to evidence and er, what I was going to do, and I hope it doesn't inconvenience anybody, I was going, instead of going on for three hours till one o'clock, I was gonna break off about half past twelve to about half past one, to break up the day as you know, I hope that's alright, so what we'll do we'll go on now and, and I'm sure, I think it's doubtful if you would have got to that point by half past twelve, and then you and Lord sort it out and your learned duties as much as you can in the adjournment and then tell me afterwards what the brochure position is, I'm sure you've no objection to disclosing any brochures that you've got that erm, or can get er which relate to that point +a lot of brochures have been disclosed +yes +difference that for instance erm there were four house brochures +there you are +they've, they've been disclosed, it's eight, nine and ten +they may they may have been in your list of documents, but copies of them may or may not of been handed over but +simply don't know +well could you try and sort that out +of course +when we have a break, preferably midday, alright so, I don't want to ask you to alter your chosen order of witnesses you see, er but equally we want to get on if we can +oh entirely +I know, I must see, you think or Mr can go on, right let's have Mr +Mr +and get as far as we can and break off about half past twelve for an hour +Could you hold the book in your right hand +Just a minute, no, no, please just while those people, just the wrong moment to leave court, they should never yes, try again +hold the book in your right hand and repeat the oath after the I swear by almighty god +I swear by almighty god +that the evidence I shall give +that the evidence I shall give +shall be the truth +shall be the truth +the whole truth +the whole truth +and nothing but the truth +and nothing but the truth +thank you +Mr +take a seat +would you keep your voice up also please +certainly +towards the jury, thank you. +What's your full name and your address please? +Kevin erm +is that in Dorset? +that is, yes +how old are you now? +forty three +what's your present occupation? +I'm a self employed marketing consultant +just a little about your background please, I think you went to Dundee Polytechnic +yes +did you er obtain a Diploma in marketing in nineteen seventy five there? +not there it was at er another college +which was? +thank you I think you're a fellow at the institute of marketing +that's correct +and er you have on occasions, at various times, lectured on marketing at various institutes of education including Bournemouth university +that is correct, I am currently doing that as well +thank you. +When did you first become connected with any organization in the group? +nineteen eighty four +which company did you go and work for? +in nineteen eighty four there, there was only the one company they hadn't divisionalized, so I joined er company in nineteen eighty four +what as? +er a group marketing manager +did you stay in that position or do you erm change? +in nineteen eighty six I think it was the company divisionalized and I was promoted to sales and marketing director of the erm, I think it was the developments division, which was, was the retirement housing division +so that's +that's correct +in er nineteen ninety one did you become marketing sales director for the whole group and a main board director? +that is correct +now in nineteen eighty seven, what did your job involve? +well as a divisional sales and marketing director I had two particular jobs, one would be erm in developing if you want the alteration of sales and marketing and the other one would be looking at overall strategic in sales and marketing +did you have people working under you? +I had at that time, and I'm trying to recall probably two or three people working directly for me, yes +Mr told us about regional offices, about how many of those were there in nineteen eighty seven? +I think at that time there were seven regional offices +would they also fall under your general control? +no, not directly, each regional office would have a regional M D, managing director, who would actually be on the board, the divisional board with me, each regional M D would then have his own regional board on which there would be er finance er finance director, sales and marketing director, construction director, land director, not all of them, all seven had that board immediately, some developed that board, grew that board over a couple of years +apart from being marketing director for developments, er did you also deal with marketing of other aspects of the group? +well not directly, erm because the whole purpose of the divisionalization was to put the skill and expertise into each division, at the initial stage of erm divisionalization there were no other marketing people immediately in those other divisions, I was occasionally called on to assist but progressively as they built up there own marketing expertise then my needs were less, they needed me less. +in nineteen eighty seven were you familiar with the advertising budget and the advertising spend of and ? +yeah +prior to the Daily Telegraph article in January nineteen eighty eight, had or or had they been in the habit of spending large amounts of money on national publicity? +most definitely not +Mr er I think I saw a smile there, why were you smiling? +because part of the reason why were very successful and profitable was because they're very cagey on money we spend and on, on the resources erm, they had been advertising but it was on a very small limited regional budget, national advertising is actually, they'd of been a or too +what was Mr attitude to spending on national advertising in so far as you could work it out? +we didn't think it was necessary and not necessary at that time, we were success advertising regionally. +Er, were you familiar with the brochures that were distributed? +yes +who's responsibility was the contents of the brochures? +well there was two parts to the brochure, erm, the, there was the general part within the brochure about eighty percent of the brochure was general for every development, the other twenty percent which would prefer specifically to that development, so there was a corporate field to the brochure, but for each development it would have it's individual flavour, that would show pictures of the locality for example, hence the golf and the erm lake and the erm specific costs of running that, that responsibility would be the responsibility then of the region putting in, cos obviously at the centre I wouldn't know whether there was a golf course in that area or not. +er, could you have erm the, agreed in front of you please and just look at C thirty that's erm you can see the golf club in this one, at er the page thirty one and the man sitting on the lake at the top of thirty one, yes, I think we know the brochures, we've got erm leisure pursuits like bowls, that sort of thing. +Who would actually draw up the wording of the brochure? +The wording referring to the specific location in the location description would by definition have to be drawn up the region, cos they would have intimate knowledge of the locality that er sorry and the costs would be drawn up by the region because they would know as I say intimately they would know that specific development +would you er still look at page thirty one please dealing with er , top right under the are there hidden costs?, the answer to this is definitely no and then there are charges set out there, there's the freehold security set up there and then the only other costs would be your apartment, local authority rates, individual electricity costs, even if this means too low there's a freehold security set up there and then the only other costs would be your apartment, local authority rates, individual electricity costs, even if this means too low, small charge for using guest bedroom, use to keep the general running costs as low as possible, and then underneath them there's a block service apartment costs, all maintenance, warden and management services, freehold security and then personal costs in an estimated weekly total, er did you know that that went into the brochure? +yes +Could you look also please at page fifty six in the same tag which is home which was forty nine, it carries on to fifty six, we can see there you've got the same thing but you've got a drawing there and not a photograph of something that's in the area, Court Castle in Dorset +I see +will the management charges greatly increase page fifty six, the answer is no and then we've read this several times, did you know that was in the brochure? +that photograph, yes +one of the things said there is,time has shown the management charges rise at a rate either slightly below or at the level of inflation, a fine record not easily beaten what, what do you say about whether or not that was accurate in nineteen eighty five for instance? +it wouldn't of been put in if it hadn't been accurate at the time +now reverting again please if you would to the one we first looked at which is er , see the costs set out on page thirty one there and we can see under personal costs with the star that refers please note that these charges are an average and depend on personal electricity consumption and are subject to verification and local authority assessment , er did you understand the difference between the management charge and the service charge? +yes +can you ever control the service charge component to make it level with inflation as opposed to the management charges? +no I would have said no +thank you. +Did you yourself come to know about the article in the Telegraph? +yes +prior to that article January eighty eight, was it being your personal desire for about whether or not in the year nineteen eighty seven going into the nineteen eighty eight or to have national or wider advertising, your personal view +my personal view was that we, we should have some form of, two things, one is communicating the realities of the situation, it's a fairly new market, there was a lot of competitors in the market, coming into the market, there was a lot of confusion in the market there was a lot of confusion in the market as to exactly what it was that customer could buy, there was also a lot of confusion of as to, cos there are different types of customer, and over sixty five, there are about seven different categories, there was a need for someone and I believe it should therefore have been the market leader at that time to if you want to establish principals, establish what they, this was in the market and establish what the elderly would be, would, should look for when purchasing a retirement apartment. +and what was your desire in nineteen eighty seven before the Telegraph article, about increasing on spending advertising, keeping it the same or decreasing? +well I, I wanted therefore to put take project into the national press and to promote the product, given that that was the larger product in the market place and therefore if you want that would set the standards for the rest of the market place, that's what I, I felt we needed to do that with the increasing number of competitors moving into market place +but in nineteen eighty seven that expansion of advertising and therefore ad advertising costs in what were you thinking of in terms of roughly in nineteen eighty seven? +oh I can't, I can't remember, sorry +are we talking about tens of thousands, or hundreds of thousands or what? +if it was the national advertising campaign and knowing and er basically then, I wouldn't of thought I'd be talking anything above a hundred thousand, I would and, and I can't remember the exact figure but given +no I understand +the situation I wouldn't of thought I could of got away with anything much more than that +did you propose in nineteen eighty seven as an increase advertising spend +in specific terms I can't remember, I would have certainly of said that for the year er nineteen eighty eight we should build into our budget an amount, what that amount was I can't remember, but er that was, that was never given the go ahead +how was it dealt with internally?, +I mean you have the idea, you want to expand advertising, which means you've got to spend more money and you said it was never given the go ahead, who at the end of the day would decide about whether it had the go ahead or not? +well the board would +which board? +er, first of all I would put it to my divisional board to my colleagues to ask for their thoughts and their advice erm, if they rejected it then it wouldn't go any further, if they approved it then it, because it was a budgetary item rather than just we can go out and spend it tomorrow, it was going into the following years budget, it would then go to the P L C board and they would have final say in whether that element should go into the, into next years budget +and who is chairman of the board, who had the final say? +John +so that was not given the go ahead in nineteen eighty seven +that's correct +I therefore need to ask you about the article and what happened subsequently. +Now you saw the article? +yes +it came out on a Saturday, do you remember where you saw it? +yes, I was on a coach to the boat show erm at Earls Court when, when I read it +was it on the day of publication? +I think it must of been, it had to be on a Saturday I believe +yes +yes, that would have been the day of publication +now we already know that there was a meeting which was called fairly promptly for the Monday of the following week which would have been the eleventh, did you attend that meeting? +yes +Mr has told us there were well over twenty people there was the article discussed then? +that was the purpose of the meeting +did you yourself have to do anything follow the art following the article? +following the article or following the meeting?, that meeting +you're quite right following that meeting which was after the article +I'm not sure there were too many decisions actually made at that meeting +why was that? +because at that meeting you can imagine that twenty people gathering then you end up not really making any decisions, far too many people, there was a lot discussed and aired and it concerns expressed and it was a case, and I'm going from recollection here, it was really a case of let's go away and think about it and calm down and look at it rationally +er, we've already seen a press release which was put out as prompt step, what was your own view about what should be done after the Daily Telegraph article and it's comments about ? +well I think that, that the, the sending out of the press release immediately was, was quite correct, because obviously people had ride that, sorry people may have read that and something therefore had to be said, my personal view was that really this article is you had, if you like had undone everything that we had been trying to do, erm and put us in a bad light and it maybe my Scottish background, but I don't like people calling in to question my motives and the companies motives, erm and I felt that it went straight to what we were really standing for, given what I explained about my thoughts in nineteen eighty seven, it was hitting straight to the core of the whole proposition and everything that stood for, erm and that is what was the great concern and because it wasn't just like a, a mild slap in the face it was more like a knife in the ribs, it was therefore required a lot more thinking about as to the reaction that we would then have to come up with. +Did you yourself give thought to the action that you thought would be required? +yes +what conclusion did you come to? +oh I came, came to several conclusions, erm, one, one of the problems that the article faced me with, if it had been a simple outburst, if, if the, the Daily Telegraph had simply taken an advert out as opposed to maybe editorials then I may of had less a problem, because the problem with editorials is that they are believed, companies adverts aren't believed, well they're partially believed, but an editorial carries a lot more weight and therefore when it's written like that it tends to strike home much harder, therefore that, my immediate thoughts were that if were going to react, if we were going to find a way of cantering the problems we felt this had created, then we would not have to follow any normal course of action, we simply couldn't put an advert out because nobody would have believed it, we would have to look at it a different way of actually cantering and that's part of the reason for the time taking to think it through. +Would you please go to tag L two, six, six to begin with just to lead you into the chronology, you have told us that in August nineteen eighty seven, er there was really no interest in national budgeting, er national advertising budget, we can see this is a memorandum from you Kevin dated the fourth of August and you're sending out to the regional marketing executives, there's no national advertising next year which would be eighty eight. +Again marketing budget at two, six, seven, the point made there again, numbered item one in the bottom third no national advertising and then two sixty eight, this is a meeting of the twenty fifth of February nineteen eighty eight, present including Mr and yourself today I send that's Mr pointed out that so far our reaction to the recent media criticism had been totally defensive in future these actions to be defended, but then attacked in order to regain our credibility were you indeed present at that meeting of the twenty fifth of erm February? +yes +in February had your own thoughts begun to cristalize about what needed to be done in response to the article? +yes +what had your thoughts sir cristalize as? +well my thoughts had cristalized that we would have to change the direction of er, we communicating with them as we've done in the past, we couldn't just use adverts that we might have used regional in a regional press, we had to pick out the point, in the, in the actual article so that four example there were six or seven points that had clearly been made, statements that had been made, I had to devise a scheme then, er, it was only a scheme in my thinking that actually, I had to devise a scheme that would pick up each of these points encounter them, now there was no way I could simply take an advert out and say, they said this, we say that because that would have had no credibility, so what I was thinking at that time is how we might be able to use some other form of being able to counter those six or seven points and I started to come up with an idea perhaps using a third party, because in our business, third party recommendation are very, very powerful and when selling to the elderly because they do not take, I'm sorry, they take a long time to come to a decision, they mull over it and such like, they take a lot of influence from people, take advise from family, accountants, solicitors, bank managers and such like, so the idea of having a third party in a sense recommend then would have allowed us to get over those particular points, so that's what was germinating in my mind at the time +and is that the thinking that lies behind the eventual getting of Terry Wogan and Angela Rippon? +that is correct +that's in an interview format isn't it? in the +yes +advertisement, and do they actually sit down in an interview or is that simply the way that the advertisement is projected +well what in actual fact happened, it's not easy to get Terry Wogan at a moments notice to come and sit down, what in actual fact happens is that we draw up exactly what it is, that, that he would be saying and what the answer will be, he sees that and it's totally approved, understandably he's not gonna put his name to anything that he doesn't believe is, is correct and that is how it's done and +I understood though I mean it, it looks from many of these er publications as though it's meant to convey that Mr and Mr Wogan are sitting down and having a conversation or Ms Rippon isn't it?, that's how it's presented, is that right? +yes +but it didn't, but, that isn't actually, that isn't what happened you're saying now +it's meant to show that Terry Wogan is asking John a question and John is answering the question +sorry I don't want to take, erm of course out of hand + +twenty six forms which police had to fill in to prosecute a thief. +And are too many babies being born by caesarian? +British Coal has asked the National Union of Mineworkers to discuss further pit closures. +The plan set out in a letter to the union is being seen as a sign that all thirty one pits earmarked for closure last year, will now shut. +In the Commons, the Energy Minister Tim Eggar said the government was prepared to go on funding the current redundancy terms available to miners until April next year. +Labour's Robin Cook said the miners had been betrayed. +It was just over a year ago that British Coal announced the closure of thirty one of Britain's deep mines. +Five months later the government gave twelve of the pits a reprieve after an unprecedented outcry from the public and M Ps. +But today British Coal said the closure review procedure was being reintroduced after its suspension last year. +Feelings ran high but it wasn't like the drama of last year when the government were forced into a humiliating review of their pit closure programme. +Michael Heseltine let his deputy Tim Eggar put the case that the government had tried to encourage the market for domestic coal. +The opposition condemned ministers for a cynical exercise which they knew would fail. +If any other government in Europe had such efficient pits and such large coal reserves, they would be safeguarding that national resource, not shutting them down. +It is not the miners who should face the sack, but the ministers who have betrayed them and betrayed Britain's coal industry. +The government is now washing its hands of the industry as it hands it over to a rigged market which will leave very few pits in Britain and the destruction of an asset which the British people asked the government to save and which the government said they were going to save. +Mr Eggar insisted that the government had poured enormous sums into the industry. +Twenty billion pounds since nineteen seventy nine. +That means one million pounds for every miner now working in the coal mining industry. +And the honourable gentleman has the nerve to say that we have rigged the market against coal. +The Energy Minister denied that the government had broken promises. +The government made its position absolutely clear in the white paper. +We said there was no guarantee of additional markets. +We accepted the recommendation of the select committee that a subsidy would be made available. +We have made that subsidy available. +On which pits might close, that, he said, was a matter for British Coal. +But some of the Tories who successfully rebelled last year, showed their disappointment. +And one of them complained that the government were prepared. +To allow this country to import coal into the United Kingdom putting people out of work when in fact we have some of the finest and most competitive deep mine coal in the world to offer for sale. +Last year, MPs were shocked to be told that thirty thousand miners would lose their jobs and half the country's pits would close. +Much of the anguish that produced is still present. +But there's now a more fatalistic mood. +Everyone accepts that pits will close but there seems little chance of the government being deflected by another rebellion among Tory M Ps. +John Sergeant, B B C News, Westminster. +There's been predictable anger in the mining industry to today' news. +Many workers said they'd expected another round of closures despite the earlier announcement of a reprieve for some of the collieries. +And N U M officials have accused the government of misleading the public into believing the pits would be saved. +Calverton Colliery in Nottinghamshire is one pit under threat. +The law says that British Coal has to go through a procedure of consultation before it can close pits. +After today's announcement, the miners there now expect that to be done. +It's been on the cards for so long I think everyone's had enough. +Let's just get it over with I think most people are thinking. +It's expected. +We know it's been coming. +It's just been a matter of time. +Well I'm forty three, I don't see what future I've got. +I mean if I retrain you know, there's a thousand people for the same job, it's just looking very bleak. +Miners at Bilsthorpe watched the announcement on television. +The pit's threatened. +After the tragedy there, they're also concerned about safety over the decision to repeal a law limiting miners' hours. +Safety does come cost and and here in Notts that we've had a safety policy. +It's been now some eighteen month, two years. +But it does cost er the corporation. +I don't think that er smaller operators when er safety becomes deregulated will be able to afford er that cost. +British Coal put no numbers on Collieries to be closed. +Authoritative sources say about fifteen pits are now threatened. +With Nottinghamshire first in line. +The corporation hopes miners will take the redundancy and not go through the lengthy procedure. +It says the money is generous. +Unions call it closure by stealth, they feel tricked. +They were simply buying time, came out with a white paper that meant absolutely nothing and now we see the full effects of it. +We're about to lose our coal industry and er we're about to lose it because of the incompetent blind dogma er of this present government. +If I say that er the the reduction the industry is facing is about fifty percent. +Currently we've about thirty operating collieries. +Erm I think the the the scale of that reduction is entirely er predictable. +And in fact er we said that at the time the white paper was published. +It is the home straight to privatization. +The smaller British Coal is, the more attractive it is to buyers. +But there's a city of London view that not much will be bought. +Contracts to buy coal aren't there. +Until such contacts are in place, deep mined output would not be attractive to the private industry and would not be saleable. +British Coal and the government's problem would be if the men don't volunteer. +If they don't accept closures soon. +That will leave the corporation with too many collieries on its hands and that would put privatization into doubt. +Stephen Evans, B B C News, at British Coal Headquarters. +Thousands of pensioners travelled to Westminster today to protest against the government's plans to impose V A T on domestic fuel. +At a rally they heard the Labour leader John Smith repeat his criticism of the government having a fatal addiction to V A T. Several Conservative MPs have stepped up the pressure on senior ministers to reverse the plans. +As coachloads of pensioners arrived at Westminster from around the country on a suitably chilly day to protest about what might happen to their heating bills when V A T's introduced. +Their message to the government was blunt and straightforward. +Well I think it's disgusting. +Absolutely disgusting. +We either freeze to death or starve to death. +They don't care about anybody. +Their pockets are lined, that's all I've got to say. +Around five thousand converged on the Commons to lobby their MPs and the Labour leader sought to step up the pressure on wavering conservatives at a pensioners' rally. +If John Major and Kenneth Clarke think that they can ignore the anger and the distress of millions of pensioners, they're making an enormous mistake. +And one of the six Tory MPs who signed a critical Commons motion today on V A T on fuel, came to the rally to deliver this warning to the government. +That I no longer believe that the government has a majority for this measure. +Aware of the risks of losing this argument, a confidential briefing document from central office was today sent to Tory MPs with advice on how to answer the crunch question, Haven't you broken all your promises? +Not at all, say the government and anyway help's at hand. +Oh I accept there is obviously concern and I will try and meet that when I introduce a package of measures at the end of November in the normal uprating statement to help those on lowest incomes who are affected by this. +There's no doubt there's widespread concern among Conservative MPs about the imposition of V A T on heating and fuel and rallies like this will only serve to heighten it. +But equally there's no evidence that the number of would-be rebels is increasing and that would seem to suggest that unpopular though this measure might be, there's little prospect of the government being defeated on it. +John Sople, B B C News, Westminster. +An increase in high street sales has given some unexpected good news on the strength of the economy. +Sales rose by a half of one percent last month, that was double August's increase and more than experts had predicted. +The city welcomed the figures and the one hundred share index rose by twenty seven points. +Despite other signs of weakness in the economy, today's official sales figures suggest activity in the shops remains brisk. +September saw strong increases in sales of clothing footwear and household goods. +Retailers at the Lakeside Shopping Centre in Thurrock in Essex are seeing their best business for many months. +We've been averaging over a quarter of a million customers a week and an indicative of this is that recently in the last week, we've just opened an additional three thousand car parking spaces to take our grand total up to twelve thousand spaces. +So we're having a very successful year I'm pleased to say. +But while retailers are optimistic, at the motor show in London this morning, Britain's car makers were still expressing concern about industries prospects. +Recession abroad has hit exports hard and though business at home has been improving slowly since the start of the year, confidence remains weak. +There doesn't seem to be a consistent upward pattern er traffic that comes into a dealers showrooms to buy cars can be up one week, it can be down the next. +So there's no consistent upward trend but overall we have seen an uplift since the beginning of this year. +Consumer spending has been driving the economy out of recession this year, but the recovery is patchy and the Chancellor will scrutinise the last detail of every economic statistic in the next month, before he decides whether he can risk raising taxes on November the Thirtieth. +Gerry Baker B B C News. +The Home Secretary Michael Howard has announced measures to cut down on the amount of police paperwork and put more officers back onto the streets. +He said the plans could free more than two thousand officers for front-line duties in England and Wales. +For police forces struggling to cope with record levels of crime, arresting people and locking them up is only half the battle. +At some police stations, when a suspect is in custody, his name may be written down on different pieces of paper on sixteen separate occasions. +About half the tie the police spend investigating crime, is taken up with form filling and bureaucracy. +An officer dealing with a straightforward case of theft has to complete at least twenty documents as well as laboriously transcribe tapes of interviews. +It's the bane of many officers' lives. +I didn't join the er the police service to to be a pen pusher or a paper or a form filler. +Erm many of my officers erm indeed all of them are of the same mind. +Er the very fact that we're at our desks er for more than seventy percent of our time filling these forms in er prevents us from moving on to the next prisoner and going out and arresting more people for crime. +The consultants called in by the Home Office identify computers and information technology generally as the best way of saving time. +Civilians should also handle more of the paperwork. +All of the recommendations have been accepted by a Home Secretary who's staked his reputation on making an impact on crime. +The consultant's have put forward proposals which they believe could halve the amount of police time spent on these administrative tasks and which could put the equivalent of up to two thousand three hundred police officers back on the streets. +The consultants noted that substantial efficiencies could be made if the Crown Prosecution Service which oversees cases going to court, didn't need so much paperwork. +For the police, it's one of the fundamental issues. +There's too much paperwork involved in getting fairly simple cases before the court er er there is too much paperwork because of the demands the system makes of us. +We need to address those demands with the other parts of the system and do it together. +While welcoming the prospect of more officers on the front line against crime, the police are concerned the proposals will have to be funded from existing budgets. +Neil Bennet, B B C News. +In the United States, the Attorney General has said that unless the American television industry substantially reduces violent programming over the next year, the government may have to intervene. +The warning follows a string of incidents including one in which a five years old child burned down the family home, killing his sister, after watching cartoon characters playing with fire. +It might seem idiotic but a scene from a recently released Hollywood film about American football, the programme, depicts young players testing their bravery by lying in the middle of a busy road as the traffic drives by. +After watching the film, one eighteen year old in Pennsylvania was killed and a friend critically injured repeating the stunt. +In Long island, New York, another teenage boy was critically injured trying the same thing. +The kids just don't seem to know the difference between movies and and what's real. +In a recent episode of a Music Television cartoon called Beavis and Butthead, the characters play with fire. +One five year old in Ohio who watched the cartoon but who was also left alone with matches, burned down the family home, killing his two year old sister. +The U S Attorney General Janet Reno, warned of government action if American television does not reduce violent programming. +In only a half a century, television bought violence has become a central theme to the life of our young people. +As central as homework and playgrounds. +We're selling soap through television, we're selling cars through television and we're selling violence. +The British standards if you compare them, much more rigorous. +America was a violent society decades before the invention of television or films but some in Congress say the most powerful media in popular culture have a responsibility at least not to make things worse. +Gavin Estler, B B C News, Washington. +The time is six fifteen and still to come, should alleged rape victims be granted anonymity? +We talk to one victim who says all sides should be named when cases come to court. +And can Celtic raise their game in Europe and see off the bad old days? +Tens of thousands of women are being given caesarian operations to deliver their babies even when it's unnecessary according to the National Childbirth Trust. +The number of caesareans has almost trebled in the past twenty years. +As i and is continuing to increase. +The Trust says the fear of possible litigation after complicated births may encourage some doctors to perform the operations. +Have you been stealing your father's socks? +Look. +Ee +Caroline Spears says she was given no option but to have a caesarian section when her daughter Freya was born eighteen months ago. +Freya was facing the wrong way in the womb but her mother says she wasn't allowed even to try for a natural birth. +She's expecting her second child in three weeks and is determined this time to have the baby at home. +I wasn't presented with the full facts. +I wasn't able to make a choice based upon being fully informed. +Erm and I feel that for no good reason I was forced to go through a major surgery. +Which took a long time to recover from. +I still feel I've been deprived of a natural birth. +The National Childbirth Trust believes at most one in thirteen births needs to be a caesarian but the present rate is one in eight. +Although in some hospitals it's as high as one in five. +If you don't do a caesar when it's needed, then of course you can end up with a baby that's damaged. +But equally if you do a caesar that isn't needed, you end up with a mother who feels traumatized, and isn't able to really relate to her baby as she wants to. +Campaigners blame the rise on what they regard as an increasingly remote institutionalized approach to childbirth. +Forty percent of consultants questioned said fear of being sued was a key factor. +But for some women it's the preferred option. +Diana Hambleton had an emergency caesarian with her first baby, her second caesarian was booked in advance. +Being that I'd had one before and I was alright about it, I feel fine. +Just a bit of stomach I feel like being kicked in the stomach by a like a horse but that's about it. +The Royal College of Obstetricians says accurate figures on the number of caesareans are difficult to find. +But it believes the numbers are levelling off. +And campaigners are out of date. +Oh they're talking about the obstetrics of the nineteen eighties not the nineteen nineties. +The thing has gone through a tidal change and we know pay attention to the views of women themselves. +Both the Royal College and childbirth groups agree that consultant obstetricians should spend more time in the labour ward helping junior staff. +Campaigners fear, unless action is take, the number of caesareans could rise to American levels, where one in four babies is born this way. +Fergus Walsh, B B C News, at the Royal College of Obstetricians. +The Health and Safety Executive says there may be a link between some cases of childhood leukaemia and the Sellafield nuclear reprocessing plant in Cumbria. +It's been claimed that children whose fathers worked there were genetically damaged by radiation. +But the H S E says the cluster of leukaemia cases is confined mainly to the nearby village of Seascale and to children whose fathers began working at the plant before nineteen sixty five. +It says a combination of factors may be responsible. +British Nuclear Fuels denies the plant caused any leukaemia. +At Carlisle Crown Court an arms dealer Stephen Shepkey has been jailed for life after being found guilty of aiding and abetting the murder of an accountant, David Wilson. +Mr Wilson was shot be two gunmen at his Lancashire home last year. +The jury failed to reach a verdict on a charge of conspiracy to murder. +Businessman David Wilson was murdered in the garage of his home at Chorley in Lancashire. +Police described it as a gangland style execution. +Mr Wilson, a forty seven year old accountant, was shot through the head twice after his family had been tied up and held captive. +What emerged in the Crown Court trial at Carlisle, held under extraordinary security, was the story of a twenty six million pound international fraud, involving the sale of non-existent cigarettes to various buyers. +The plan then was to scuttle the ship supposedly carrying the cigarettes, thus destroying any evidence and collecting on the insurance. +The court heard that the man behind the fraud was an American going by the name of Hector Portillo. +He's currently in New York facing extradition moves. +When David Wilson realized what was going on, he began talking to Scotland Yard. +Portillo it's alleged then arranged for someone to, Blow the hell out of Mr Wilson. +Stephen Shepkey, an art restorer and professed gun dealer, was the man who helped organize the shooting of David Wilson. +He faxed details of the location of the Wilson home back to the United States. +But tonight at the end of the eleven day trial, the two gunmen were still at large. +Mike Mckay, B B C News, Carlisle. +There've been demands today for the names of alleged rape victims to be published if the accused is acquitted. +It follows yesterday's acquittal of a former student Austin Donnellan who was accused off raping a friend. +Women's rights groups say fewer women would report rape and even fewer cases would come to trial if anonymity was not guaranteed. +Muriel Harvey was raped on her way back from midnight mass in Ludlow last Christmas. +The former magistrate chose to go public. +She says the women in the Donnellan case should have been named as should all alleged rape victims when their case comes to court. +A woman should not fear coming forward. +She should be prepared to come and stand on her own two feet and say, er this happened to me, I've survived it, I'm proud that I have survived it. +People will show great sympathy, I can tell everybody that. +The nineteen seventy six sexual offences act conferred anonymity on both victim and defendant in rape cases. +But a law review committee later said rape defendants were getting preferential treatment. +And since nineteen eighty eight it's been permitted to name the alleged rapist. +Angus Dougal is appealing against his three year sentence for attempted rape. +His solicitor Duncan Mcnabb believes the accuser should remain anonymous but the accused should only be named if found guilty. +There is a risk of a blemish being left er on the name of er a c er of a defendant of a rape case even when he is acquitted. +There is a strong argument er for us to revert back to the previous legal state of affairs in which the anonymity was preserved both of the complainant and of the defendant. +It's widely agreed that anonymity has made women more willing to report rapes. +Many lawyers and women's rights campaigners say it must stay. +For it to be known that a woman is a victim of a rape attack, would really stigmatize her. +It can put pressure on her family, on her children, er put pressure on her at work in her job situation and she could be under a lot of harassment. +For Austin Donnellan, yesterday's acquittal should end the matter. +But his case has raised new questions in the continuing debate about how the courts and the media should deal with rape. +Wesley Kerr, B B C News. +The government has suffered another defeat in the House of Lords, over its plans to privatize British Rail. +A rebel Tory amendment tightening the rules governing the B R pension fund was passed by twenty nine votes. +Labour say they believe it's unlikely the decision will be overturned in the Commons. +Aid agencies are warning of a severe shortage of food in Central Bosnia and with Winter approaching, an estimated one and a half million people there are now dependant on aid. +Many are becoming increasingly desperate and turning their frustration on humanitarian organizations, which they say are not doing enough to help them. +Yesterday police used teargas to break up protestors blocking aid lorries near Zenesa. +Earlier today near women and children robbed another aid convoy. +The women begin to gather at first light. +From here they can see convoys coming half a mile away. +When a Dutch convoy appears in the distance, they move in blocking its path and demanding food. +The convoy turns and heads back to the warehouse at Zenesa. +The women are unrepentant. +We're starving, they say. +The U N H C R operations room puts all further convoys on hold. +A few hundred demonstrators have halted an aid effort on which one and a half million depend. +Er last information I've got, still crowd of people blocking the road. +But not for long. +The Bosnian police descend and apply the force which increasingly here is needed to secure delivery. +First rifle rounds then tear gas. +And only now can the convoy pass. +The people of Zenesa are selling anything they can to survive. +Enver says he's down to his last kilo of flour, otherwise his cupboard's empty. +He doesn't know how he'll feed his nine year old son Annis. +I'm so desperate I'm even having to sell my clothes, he says. +Aid workers say Central Bosnia, cut off for the first time this Winter by the war between Croats and Muslims, is facing a humanitarian catastrophe. +The U N H C R says the aid effort it needs will be ten times greater than that mounted for Sarajevo last year. +Alan Little, B B C News, Central Bosnia. +Senior members of Germany's ruling Christian Democrat party, are meeting to endorse Chancellor Kohl's choice of candidate for the next president. +There's been mounting criticism of Chancellor Kohl's nomination of Stephan Heitmann, a conservative from East Germany, because of his views on the Holocaust, foreigners and the role of women in society. +Some German women are up in arms, No thank you, they say to going back to the role of mothers and home builders. +These women in Dresden think that could happen if an arch-conservative takes over as Germany's head of state. +That man is Stephan Heitmann, he's a little known politician from Eastern Germany. +But Chancellor Kohl has hand picked him to be president despite bitter opposition including some in his own party. +He's talking about er er that there're too many foreigners in our country. +That gives water to the mills of the right wing radicals and the Neo Fascists party in Germany and they right wing radicals have already voiced their support. +Stephan Heitmann has stirred up a storm of protest for suggesting the Germans should draw a line under history including the Holocaust. +Mr Heitmann says clearly Germany's special role because of war guilt must end and after unification, the Germans should take a new view of their Nazi past. +Extreme right wing parties applaud Mr Heitmann's views and some fear that could fuel the alarming spate of attacks on foreigners. +An arson attack by neo- nazis has destroyed one Holocaust memorial and Jews worry about the Germans forgetting the lessons of the past. +Fifty years after er the end of second world war, it's too early to speak that this history shouldn't have any more influence on German politics. +The polls show most Germans don't want Stephan Heitmann as president and there's still stiff opposition within his own party, but Chancellor Kohl here in his own office is now meeting with other party leaders to put the final touches to the final nomination of Stephan Heitmann as president of Germany. +William Horsley, B B C News, Bonn. +With four more British soccer sides battling it out in Europe tonight, one club in particular will be trying to recapture its past glories. +Celtic are going through one of their worst times since winning the European cup in nineteen sixty seven. +In debt and in the middle of a takeover battle, they're also looking for a new manager. +Celtic fans arriving at Park Head Stadium this evening are hoping for a European victory over their Portuguese guests in the manner of past glories. +Celtic's defeat of Inter Milan in nineteen sixty seven brought the European cup to Britain for the first time. +Their success attracted a worldwide following as the Lisbon Lions and their successors dominated Scottish football for more than a decade. +In their centenary year of nineteen eight eight they won the league and cup double, but since then honours have been in short supply. +And in a city where football demands tribal loyalties, that simply isn't good enough. +I've been a Celtic supporter for thirty five years, I've seen the good days and we're in the bad days. +Er now we're miles and miles behind Rangers, on the Park and off the Park. +The club's still fundamentally wrong. +It's not been run in the right manner at all. +The guys running the club don't really know what they're doing. +While their old firm rivals Rangers, have set new standards of footballing and business excellence, Celtic have been starved of success, amassing debts of almost five million pounds. +The recent departure of manager Liam Brady has also brought to a head a bitter boardroom battle which threatens to tear the club apart. +Rebel shareholders want to wrest control from a handful of family dynasties who've traditionally been in charge. +The road that they have created I think is having a damaging effect on the team and is making it more difficult for us to get the results. +Victory over sporting Lisbon and a successful signing of Lou McCarie as new manager, will give the Celtic directors breathing space to iron out their difficulties. +But there are those who wonder whether Celtic will ever again be the force they once were in British and European football. +Andrew Castle, B B C News, Park Head. +And tonight's main news again. +British Coal says it's re-opening its pit review programme. +It means all thirty one pits earmarked for closure last year, may now shut after all. +Thousands of pensioners have protested in London over the government's plans for V A T on domestic fuel. +And there are new measures to cut down police paperwork and put more officers on the streets. +The next national news is the Nine O'clock News but from Jenny and from me, good evening. + +Who's it for? +down here? +orange. +Alexandra? +She doesn't like orange. +orange. +She likes +I in the campaign is +there's a big tank, all, all the stuff were there +Did she? +they've got, they've got fish for sale. +Erm quid. +Something like that. +Did you go in and see ? +What's the matter ? +What's the matter with him? +what's the matter with him? +I thought we had one of those nice er fish tanks +We was talking to Carole about Michelle and she said oh Claire , you knows, she could have had hers +Yeah. +and I remember vaguely seeing it, one of those , the round one +Oh, yeah. +but it's not the hexagon shaped one, it's round and it's got an orange lid on it and an orange side +Do you know what he did, the spotty kid? +Went down the road and he came back with a video. +What a tape or +No +Recorder? +Hundred and five pound. +He spend fifty, said to me I +Well if it's any good I mean that's not bad for the for the for, for the other room is it? +That's right, yeah. +Cos when I was telling about my music she said well you haven't got a video in that room, I said well no not yet I haven't. +Mm. +So she looked at me as if to say well I haven't got one at all. +Chelle +She thinks she's persuaded +What? +Albert now doesn't she? +Could you bring in a couple of ashtrays when you come in love? +For what? +A video. +Ooh er. +Cos she was saying they were +What? +watching a film +Can you bring a couple of ashtrays in when you come in? +Please. +and they didn't know which one to watch there was two on at the same time so they picked one and she said if we had a video she said we could be taping the other one and he said how can you do that? +He doesn't understand them. +So she was telling him. +Oh she said he seems quite interested +he said I might to town today. +Well you can get a new one just two hundred odd can't you? +Yeah. +And she said no they're only a couple of hundred. +Thank you. +Thanks Michelle. +I thought Sharan a fish tank and cos I bought her a radio cassette for Christmas and she said if I wanna listen to tapes I'll use that. +I said oh +But I like that half of the room with the chair and the telly +Yeah. +but I don't know +Well I had the chair here didn't I? +No the telly here +That's right, that's right. +I just tried one of those new chocolate bars, Secrets +Very thin strands of chocolate +Mm. +like round and round and round and inside is like er +Hello. +Hiya yeah yeah oh yeah I've just been down to oh we've only just got in +So why am I so lucky and I got you as well? +just to make my day just to make my day yeah well, I wasn't sure what those you see, hang on a minute mum so er she said she'll either get the twelve or the one so I went down to see if she was on the twelve o'clock bus, and she wasn't so I thought well I'll try again +and +Well don't they have cheaper ones there? +Well how much ?well I think it is Pat, that's why I asked because Angela was saying some er it was gonna be nine pound and that was with the well I think I'll have to +Oh it's like a den of iniquity in here,. +Remember that time in Marks when we went to Marks she stood there smoking? +She didn't see a dickie bird to me, not a word. +Blackpool. +Er at Blackpool. +Cos Rita swears she's been , I mean I was out with her once and we went in for a coffee and we finished, right, and we're ready to go and I nearly said to her I hate it after you've finished and Jackie lights up and then I have to sit there while she has a fag +Mm. +and it +I go to sometimes. +I'm sure she thinks I've put her off from coming up. +But we were gonna go to the cemetery couple of weeks ago and it weren't very nice. +But we haven't been for months. +Got coming up Friday well it means that I you know which I'm gonna have to do anyway Saturday, so I'll take him in and I'll go down early +Well Rachael got Carole. +She said this morning am I gonna pay for it tomorrow or on Friday +Tomorrow! +I said Friday. +Well she comes up Friday and on Saturday. +Well we've booked it now. +What's that? +Read that red car over there, please, the number plate +I thought you were gonna start learning? +Nex two weeks when he's seventeen. +He's not seventeen yet is he? +What? +Changed my mind. +Eh? +spend hundred and five quid on a video. +He was gonna buy a car yesterday, hi-fi, video +You've got plenty of money stashed away have you Jon? +Oh a video cassette recorder. +Then you see +get one of those with a push down button. +It's, it's push button is first, the thing goes up +Mm. +The thing between? +How much guarantee with that? +Six months. +? +The guarantee ran out what colour is it, silver? +Big one? +Big one? +that brush, the brush +Yeah that's with the, it's,do doesn't come with the +said that was two ninety nine for the brush and one ninety nine for +It was freezing in that car today, he kept opening the window. +You should take a coat. +He, he leaves his coat on see right and I don't with a coat so he opens his window cos he's hot, I'm freezing. +Say excuse me shut the window. +I and I couldn't believe it I actually did it right. +You've gotta actually do it right on your test. +This girl, Anne, yesterday she said she clipped the kerb and and said as long as erm you have another +He said you probably need another lesson to brush up on your +She clipped a kerb. +They usually judge the parking +She she passed that and she ha he said that just have another lesson on your your test and you'll be alright. +He passed her, and he was known for being crappy. +Do you know the Highway Code? +No. +Mind you all the questions he's asked me yesterday I answered. +I could have done that . +Nothing else, just the Highway Code. +You could have been driving +I thought I knew it +but there were some of the things in there and I just didn't expect them to ask me, and it wasn't in the book like. +He asked me about erm if you broke down on a motorway where would you stop. +I said well on the hard shoulder, I said, you can't stop nowhere else . +So then he said to me how would you I said so he went yes, I said and and he said and how would you put it back, I said +Well what if you haven't got one? +I said he said, I said well I haven't got one anyway so it don't matter. +Yeah but they're not gonna say that at my test, if you haven't got one it don't matter. +You'd better start learning that Highway Code. +I, he asked me the one, you know, we were on about this morning, the only one we looked at, fifty miles an hour and he asked me that one and I knew it . +It was the only one I knew this morning like, so fifty miles an hour he said to me He said to me, he said to me turn left at the roundabout there was only one that was marked on the floor, only one an actual erm roundabout with concrete and I drove straight over it +Well didn't you see the sign for it? +There was a sign but it was and it was just cracked so cars behind me were just driving over it and nobody could, you can't see it. +She killed three pedestrians but she's alright. +Said if I wasn't awake I'm well and bloody truly awake now. +What? +I said if I wasn't awake I'm well and truly awake now. +I hear you got up at one. +Ah! +Right Jon? +Yeah. +Come on then. +I ended up +and I stood there den of iniquity in here, with the three of them, and luckily she wasn't paying attention, she went on to something else and they all looked at me and burst out laughing. +Those two are laughing, they don't know what they're laughing about. +a fish tank ? +Yeah I was coming up now I should think, she told Claire that she'd bought one and Claire said oh she could have had this so I said oh I said +? +that's er one of those upright ones in there she said yeah I thought Claire might be interested in that and so I was thinking it was like the ones we've seen but it's not, it's completely round and it's on erm like a stand like that, you know, it's an upright +It looks nice when, you know, when it's lit up. +It's alright +but I don't like the orange on it. +She bought it for Shaun. +It was a wedding present actually but she said he don't bother with it, it's behind a chair now, the fish are still in it but it's stuck behind a chair. +Well if she wants if she wants to get rid of it ask her how much she wants for it. +Well ask Carole to ask her, if she, she wants to get rid of it how much she wants for it. +Cos the st er you could, you might be able to take the stand cos it's gotta be pretty er hefty. +I don't know if she's got cold water or tropical +Don't make any difference. +Has she got a pump in it? +Oh, I dunno. +Suggest we go and assist this lady. +See we er we tried to get and it was about ten to twelve so I thought, I thought Carole wasn't coming till the next bus so I'd go down and pick her up. +go down and meet the bus so we're sat there now ten past eleven and I thought I hope we haven't missed it now and she's walked up, she's standing out the door cos I'd locked the door. +I said we'd better go home and check and so we drove down to and as I got there, so the bus comes up, so it looked pretty but I thought well I'd better check so I followed it back up and nobody got off it and +So you clocked twenty mile just following empty buses. +So I turned round then and said right said to Sharan I'll drop you off at the house and I said when she's ready I'll walk up to the shop. +So I said I'd better make sure she's in, so Sharan knocks on the door, no answer. +I said oh I hope she hasn't got another bus so Sharan said I think there is two buses cos whenever I meet mum it's always a little blue bus and this was a big orange I said well we'll call at the shop I said and if erm not we'll have to go home. +So as we were going along she was just going into the paper shop and she was on her way up to the one o'clock bus, so I called in to see Jackie and had a coffee and then we come home. +Oh. +I said we've gotta be home before Michelle cos I had the key, for some reason I put it in my pocket +No. +Righto. +It is. +I can read in my bedroom when I can't sleep +I don't think that she wants anything for it +Yes she does +cos she keeps saying to me oh when you have that bloody tank she keeps nagging and nagging to have it. +The fish as well? +I don't want it cos I've got er +Yeah. +goldfish +the fish but +What are they, cold water? +It's just like Michelle's with er one pump in there. +Does it have a light ? +There's a, there's a light you've gotta plug, switch for the light +So it's actually in with the tank is it? +Mm. +Yeah. +Yeah. +She tried to give it to me +Cos I was telling her that you bought one she said oh why didn't you tell her, she could have had mine. +The thing is that in my bedroom +It was sat behind the settee in a corner. +I haven't seen it for about two months. +Yeah. +I remember seeing it when we went to that party, and I know, cos it would have been lit up +I wonder where she got it. +I don't know. +They're all bigger than yours though. +and like when he cleans them, all he does is change like that pump thing and wipe the glass. +Well he does that so often. +And like when he cle does the water he just changes half of it and you know keeps half in and just wipes the glass, just wipes the glass off. +Because he said the water +he said is cleaned cos it all goes in that pump thing +Yeah. +it's the glass you've gotta wipe so that's all he does. +Oh well might get it after all. +Yeah. +and put the thing in with it. +Mm you'll have to as well. +There's a plug in the garage but I ain't going in the garage. +Turkey. +What? +Turkey. +Turkey? +The first time I ever got it I what do you want me to do and he said right run across there and I'd run now punch it, and I'd be punching the you'd be jumping and turning round, I couldn't get the right one , and finally punch it and the would be coming, said quick hit that and I was getting all sort of +on it now. +I'm quite good at that bit now +She has at least an hour a day on it. +And when I didn't even look in this morning, I just, I wasn't +Are you on that Sega! +I went in to see the cats and then I swept up all the mess +She sees she sees to the cats and then she stays in the see you've gotta keep him company +It's a bit pongy in there at the moment. +You can +you've got as well have you? +It's a telephone number actually. +I know. +Blind or what. +So tell me more about this job in er Manchester. +I told you about it . +You told me nothing. +I have! +I dunno what you're on about! +Oh when I come in she said will you miss me when I go to Manchester. +I, didn't I tell him ? +Yeah, yeah but tell us +But we don't know any details yet. +Yeah. +Is this true? +Well she could stop there couldn't she if she wanted to. +Er they were thinking of coming back on Sunday +I thought he was on two days. +Look if I've gotta tell you that one more time now I'm gonna scream! +That was only that one week +Oh that's the one week was it? +back on the +On the Sunday because they're going back Friday right after new year's day +that is given the Thursday and Friday off so now he's a full week except for Thursday when he's in college. +God! +Put it down to age Michelle. +Age? +I've told him four times. +Well I thought he was on two days. +Well. +Thought he was on two days four times. +Well you know what thought did don't you? +Well I thought he was on eight days then. +You hungry? +No. +Good cos you ain't getting nothing here. +My favourite, my favourite niece can have some though. +Where were you then when Carole was walking up the street? +I didn't see you. +In the shop. +how long have we been here? +Give me the, the lighter. +Thank you. +Well if you want to go, go help yourself. +She even knows the music now. +When I went to Asdas on the first day when he was telling me about erm sales, loads of people erm +Well he's to isn't he? +one he's got now is that one car, and he had another car driving one didn't he? +Yeah, the Grand Prix, that was rubbish, that Grand Prix . +Especially compared to the one. +Mm. +I thought that was harder though cos you had to keep changing +I had it on automatic +Yeah well I didn't know you could change gear I just thought it was automatic. +You don't. +That's why that's why when you see his name up on the, the list, he, he won't sell. +But he finds out all these things but he doesn't tell you and you keep getting killed and you think I wonder if I could do it +Mm. +and until you see him doing it ooh I said you never told me that did you? +And he oh that's, that's a free life for them, you punch it and it's the ghost that kills him, you can't get away from the ghost. +Can if you run like hell. +He was only saying to me +Yeah but +last night and it put me right up er it put me right up +Where you've gotta get underneath them. +and I said there's not enough room to run. +That's when I switch it off. +I tell him I can have the red ball if he straight into right and keep pushing your finger on it and er he'll go under. +It says in the book see erm to pr +press the down button and then across so that's the down button, you know +Well I thought you had to get a certain amount +Er well in the book it doesn't say it and I tried it and under the give that a little bit more room,can get back under by just moving +What have you got to eat then? +Go and have a look then. +It's as simple as that. +I've had a back for a, since Sunday. +You don't usually have him Friday do you? +It's Thursday tomorrow erm his mother's going out tonight, some thing so she's out +What? +Eh? +Where? +She should be able to do that that Sunday you have him Mich. +Ah yeah but +She works does she? +Oh. +Bloody hell +Dad. +What? +Doesn't matter. +Good. +Nineteen. +Ought to do it. +Ooh! +Sixteen. +Ooh! +Jono Jon. +Is it twenty? +Afraid it is. +Ooh yes! +Sixteen thirty, forty one.? +Hundred and forty +Hundred and forty left. +Treble twenty. +Ooh +And the tops! +Ooh thirty eighty scored. +Jono +Four O three thirty eight Oh God!four O three thirty eight +Hey these look good on my darts. +fit Just get out of my way. +Yes. +Yes! +Sixty. +Jono now +Jon warm squash +What's up, cold is it? +Yeah. +Out the kettle +Feel that. +That is cold. +Must be like the I've seen it +You didn't have to tip it all out. +Oh, well I have. +Now be sensible Jon. +Looks like +Ooh that's too hot. +you're not supposed to eat it warm. +Aha aha +Aha +Aha +Aha +Aha +All gone! +All ah +Gone. +Gone. +Say ma ma mum +Ma ma ma ma +Banana +na na +Duck +Say ba ba +Say ba ba and dog dog with the dog +What? +dog dog say dog dog +Ba ba +Say quack quack +Oh! +Oh +Ah! +come back in a week. +Mummy +Funny our meeting innit? +Oh she +Will you be able to do it +Ah! +Ah +Tell me tell me want a biscuit? +Want a biscuit? +Do you want a biscuit? +Do you want a biscuit! +Do you want a smack! +Do you want a snog! +coffee? +Eh? +Not yet. +make me a coffee Rach, +No way +Dad have we got a biscuit ? +The Nice? +Yeah +Yeah. +Oh +There's only four in it. +What? +Four in it. +I only bought them yesterday. +yesterday. +What? +Last night? +Yeah. +It's thick, +It don't fit. +It'll fit in your mouth. +Don't. +Here. +Oh! +See. +Mum +Two sugars please dear +Mum +Two sugars please dear yeah +Mum +No +There's none left, Becky had the last one. +Who drank my coffee? +Would you like or what? +Mum mum mum +A big what? +Mum +A big what? +Oh when the saints go marching in oh when the saints go marching in I'm gonna when the saints go marching in +You going down the shops then? +I'm not. +You are! +I'm not. +You're going down +I'm not I'm not +I'm not. +Don't back on to me now before I start +I'm not, I'm not +I am not messing +I'm not. +You are. +Yes we have. +We don't want them yet. +Well they're coming up. +Go and see daddy, come on. +Shall we go and see Max? +Did you? +Shall we go and see Tom? +Oh I expect she'll go in the paper shop won't you Claire? +I've gotta go in there anyway. +There you are see she's going in the paper shop. +Oh aye. +This one. +This one mum +What? +There. +Which what? +The +The one that you bought her for Christmas. +What? +mum +What? +Well I suppose so. +Oh. +Oh I was just looking for that. +Mum mum mum mum +So how come she's coming +mummy +What ? +Yeah. +Twelve. +Twelve. +No take and then bring back the +She did say the didn't she? +she only give you twenty, +Mummy +Mum +She's got a new tennis ball. +A great ball and she's got a milk shake and look look +A tennis ball. +mum mum +Mm? +I've got a straw +Mm. +Sit, lay down. +Forty five minutes a side is it Jon? +Yeah. +So I can do a tape +C hey, come down +Mum +it's +come back. +Don't have to start taping cos it's on now. +Mum. +It's on now. +Is it? +Mum +Yeah. +Mum. +Max, over here now. +Come here. +Mum. +Hey! +Max! +Drop drop +and you'll have to tell the Chinese kids that you went to feed ducks +Ah! +Yeah +Yeah. +again. +No. +is she? +No she's alright now. +The other day is she, she been sick and she been +I can see why the other ones couldn't know what you were saying. +What? +The other one wouldn't know what you were saying. +Sorry? +Sorry? +It's only c I go down and he answers the door, I say Jim! +And yet he can watch the telly and he reads the newspaper and yet you don't, he can't understand English but he'd be watching this right and it is ha laugh so something must be funny but he dunno what's happening. +It's a bit like us watching a what's name film with the words up, but only without the words, it's like us watching that, to him. +Mum +Mm? +No it's just the clock alright? +Yeah. +And then we go +Yeah! +You're excited aren't you? +You're excited aren't you? +Aren't you? +And if you're good tonight while you're upstairs they can come again. +Can't they? +Jon? +Yeah. +What? +They can come again if she's, they're good upstairs see. +As long as they, long as Rachael is good +Jon make a cup of coffee. +Max, go and lie down. +Naked Gun Two and a Half well that Naked Gun is awful, it's a stupid comedy +Yeah. +Mum mum +What did you do then? +Mummy +What did you do? +Mum +Tell Uncle Jon make coffee +Do you like coffee? +Mum +I'm walking upstairs do you find that I open my sister's bedroom door and there's three Chinese girls, there you go, it's on already +I know +right, the lights are off, mummy's gonna take over, okay? +Okay. +Are you having fun? +Yeah. +Gee! +Eh Rach +Jon about seven o'clock +Oh careful. +at seven o'clock can you bring me a sandwich up? +Make it up? +No they're made on a plate in the thing +Oh. +a sandwich +Mum mum mum +Ready then? +Yeah. +be back no I for the moment. +Jon I've put the kettle on. +coffee. +You put the kettle on Rach no? +Oh +I put the kettle see. +. +What? +I'm cold. +I've got the heating on, the water on, I've just turned the fire up +I used to like the old Super Ted better than this. +He doesn't wanna lose me +Oh! +He said to me last night he said +he said it's just the fact of you're not coming in. +You wanna tell him the reason why you left. +Sunday, just told him I was going +Yeah but you told him cos of +Well it wasn't just that, he was I mean he ti if, say I wanted to work Friday or Saturday or whenever +It'd be better if you were working the Monday and Tu and have +Yeah. +No but he don't work nobody works Monday and Tuesdays normally see. +So if erm I wanted to work Friday or Saturday or if my mother wants to go +I gotta to swap with Gaynor, now Gaynor doesn't like working Fridays and Saturdays see, so you don't like to swap cos you know she hates it. +Ta +Sunday. +Max stop it! +work Sunday and Tuesday but he doesn't have +C come here. +anybody then he wants me to the Thursday and I said yeah that's alright. +Has Gaynor finished now? +Not now. +Come on Max, fetch you +It's my ball. +It's your ball is it? +Sunday and Saturday +I, I think it's +Yes +I dunno who they'll get because I can honestly say Sunday nobody come in and said oh I wouldn't mind doi being here +Ta. +On the weekend like? +Yeah. +So it could be, it will be hard to get someone. +Have you got another tennis ball? +coffee no sugar eh Tone? +Oh aye. +One sugar for me da, not two . +You're not having one. +I am. +And tea for yourself. +Tea for me and one sugar. +Oh God +Ah you're not supposed to do that to them, you've gotta bowl it to him and he'll bowl it back to you. +Yeah! +The dog? +Yeah. +Tell him off. +He'd say you play catch. +The dog? +Show Tony how you play now you roll it to him see and he'll keep, oh he bowled it back! +Come on then dog +Roll it back. +play with him now, he plays better than you. +Come on then. +Drop it! +Drop. +Drop. +Bring it back. +He didn't roll it back +Roll it back. +Roll it back. +It's cos it's new and he's grinding it. +You daft scrounging +Oh sit down +Lock him up under the stairs. +Yes +Chuck him in that cupboard out the back. +Sharan had er Jon the other day. +Another one. +The dog is licking up the +Oh don't be a pig. +What did you buy yesterday Miche? +Yeah last night. +When you went up to the shop. +No last night. +She come in, she was alright when she come in and she was just speaking as usual, she went up to bed +was crying was she? +Yeah +Yeah. +She thinks she's not wanted doesn't she? +Then she keeps saying to don't try and put me off. +Well I think she, I don't think she erm has thought it through. +She hasn't thought it through. +She thinks it's all gonna be roses . +She's +she's forgetting about the bills and +But she went out, she, she thinks +managing on her own. +she's gonna +She's still allowed and as well. +She is very silent and shifty at times. +Yes she is. +What about the dog catching the ball. +She hit me over the head +And all she's done like is just and you can't say no. +If she does though mind she'll try harder next year. +I said that to her and she said yes she said I can go, I'm she said. +as well as people putting ideas into her head. +Yeah. +I can understand why she works in a hotel but I mean why not in Cardiff or something like that? +Well not only that she said if I don't get this job she said I'm gonna +Ah you cheeky thing! +You've done that. +Ready? +That's it. +Oh don't be so rude Jon. +Give it back. +Drop. +Drop. +Drop. +Back back bring it back. +the soap powder? +Yeah. +Look at him you kick his head and he +And if someone's going down the shop +He said I thought you'd say +Sit down Max Max Max sit down sit. +Lie down. +Lie down, lie down,lie down +Roll over. +Roll over roll over roll over +Bring it back. +Bring it back. +Max roll it back roll it back +You play with him Rachel he does it for you. +Roll it back. +Drop it Max! +Drop it. +Drop it. +Stop playing with him. +Roll over. +No you want him up, up! +Up. +Up. +That's better, roll over. +Up come here Max +Walkies +Don't look at me. +Tony said it. +Sit. +Max sit down. +Rachael take those things off +Give them here Rach +Let me have one Rach. +No Max will play with you look. +Sit. +Ta. +about six. +Carole, Carole +I said I'd come down again tomorrow night and come up the house for an hour er take him up the +Mum shall we take the +Yeah. +Yeah. +Yeah? +In an hour. +No they'll be having theirs before they come. +So you'll have to have yours before they come. +Say you want a Chinese Rach. +No. +Just have some ham. +I was gonna get a good film for tonight but I didn't have my card +Well she give me that one the other night +Well she won't let me. +What film? +Naked Gun Two and a Half. +Oh God. +We had , have you seen that? +That's a good film. +Te Terminator Two we wanna watch innit? +What's it about then? +Oh I'm thinking of +Judgment Day you're thinking of. +my father said that was shit. +What? +Silence of the Lambs. +and I told him the ones to see. +He said Jackanory was +It was good. +It was well put together but +It was better than I'd thought it'd be. +Jodi Foster's in it wasn't she? +That's me! +Too right it is, +Monday Michelle? +Don't remind me please. +And my +And my birthday Saturday. +Rachael Rachael Rach +For Sale soon to come out. +They got eight copies of them video shop +Rach +Ghost was the same mind wasn't it? +Aye but they've got it now, there's about eight copies out on the, all on the shelf gathering dust. +is the best, the least expensive isn't it? +Yeah. +In the shop, it's only one pound fifty for a, a new release video shop. +And it's a pound for the older ones. +Mum. +Have you been to school today? +They're not in yet. +Been to playgroup today, they're doing it Wednesdays as well now. +Are they? +Can you wait to go to nursery school Rach? +She can't wait to go to school now, she +What? +What? +Yeah that's the baby ones +Yeah I could do with a good laugh, go on. +some sandwiches is it? +Yeah. +And you can have a picnic upstairs. +On your own? +I'm going upstairs and picnic. +picnic is it? +On your own? +squash. +picnic upstairs +a party upstairs right and say no, no adults allowed. +It's only kids, innit? +And you can use the tea set. +No. +Ooh ! +Look what's this called? +The dog. +You know this don't you? +It's your favourite. +What's his name? +George. +George. +Woof, it's called Woof. +What's his name? +Can you remember? +Er +Eric the Dog +Eric the Dog, yeah, yeah. +It's called Woof. +He's a clever dog isn't he? +Good actor though isn't he, the dog? +Your favourite Did you have erm the other night? +Yeah we had +Oh. +Yeah he said to me +He's gone back today and he's house in Blackpool. +He cried for put him on the bed, couldn't do no college work so I just went to bed and left him. +had him out and then when she brought him back he wouldn't stop crying. +I disagree. +Disagree with what? +pain in the arse. +Look after him for nothing? +Mm +Ah how can you say that? +How could she say that dog? +I can always take Ma forget about Max in his place. +You've got no chance. +Yeah we'll swap. +Compliment Jon +No me and Sharan get on alright. +Like a house on fire. +used to have her before they erm, before +Sharan wants a good punch in the face doesn't she? +I've never had a row with Sharan. +Have I? +I've never rowed with Sharan +I can wind her up just like that +Oh aye you can wind her up +The thing is that +but she knows how to take me Sharan do but some people, no, +some people she dunno +and you ask her a question +And she answers you +I said don't be so bitchy or something wasn't it? +So like when I said that she knew that I was teasing her when I said in, in that tone of voice. +Jon +Well she wants to get a flat does she? +She's been talking about it for ye the past year. +She'll fall on her she will. +Thing is I know she's not +I can't even afford to go in a flat myself and I +Take her with a pinch of salt. +I don't pay no board, nothing, and I couldn't afford to bloody move out. +Yeah but I mean if I get it all the time I don't think she's, she's to me +she's on about erm getting a flat , she's not working, she's got no money saved behind her +But she kn she knew what +Cos she hasn't she hasn't got one single bit of furniture +Mm. +She haven't she give that away +I mean, I mean she's have her bedroom stuff, yes, but I mean +She wouldn't, my mother told her she's not allowed to take the bed. +Oh well. +Why? +Because she said if any of you move out she said unless you move into a but I, she said you, I got, the only things I can take are, is the , a chest of drawers +I'd take my wardrobe +Take the wallpaper and all. +Yeah but I mean in a way you can understand +I mean I mean well in their house they've got two bedrooms +Yeah but say my mother moves into er another house yeah. +But if my mother moved to another house see she couldn't afford to refurnish +Mum +That's why she +they moved out +Mum +Oh right. +Mum. +and they +Mum, mummy, mum, mummy +And they can have a picnic? +You can have a picnic upstairs We'll make a picnic before they come, and then about seven o'clock I'll take it up to you. +Oh. +It's good that is. +Isn't it? +It's cos they don't go out see and when they do go out I remember the first time I took them down the park, they were like monkeys +Mm especially on the +England's away. +Oh aye England's away. +Right. +Will you? +I'd love to go ice skating +I hope you break your God damned leg. +leg is plaster +The last time I went ice skating I was pregnant, but I didn't know. +Oh +Last time I went , there was six of us right, three boys and three girls right, never ever again I'd do that with a big gang because +Well when we went there was Phyllis, Julie,and me and I was in the middle of because I'd never been on ice skates before, I'd been roller skating holding each side of them right, and they let me go and I just went and I was going down and I went bang right on the bloody side . +And these bloody boys who were supposed to come and help you if you got, they're whizzing round and they're +I fell a d do you remember we went before and I fell and I just sat there and I couldn't, they, this erm woman and this man come to help me up and I couldn't stop laughing, they couldn't get me up. +There's a gang of us going, all girls. +A gang +Oh Jon I'll give you anything you want my darling. +Fine. +Someone's at the door! +It's +Who's for coffee ? +Please. +Michelle cup. +Michelle, cup of tea? +No thank you. +Can Tony have one? +You can have one if you want one. +Hello +Oh hello +Mum if Prince is sick after it's Carole's fault. +He's been licking up fag ash. +I dropped the ashtray and he started licking it. +No six o'clock he said +Hey Jon I hope you, I hope you realize that I'm having that twenty five quid. +next week, I've made arrangements. +No I'll keep it for when I have my money and I'll go down to Cardiff and spend it the bloody lot. +I know she can't get ticket, do you know where to get them from? +No just, I,they're scarce they're scarce for some reason. +They're only allocating so many committee men and all that. +Oh! +They were coming over in bloody gangs, right, there was the little ducks, you know the ones with green heads, so we were giving them bread and then all of a sudden the other side +Gangs, yes +there's a big gang of these big black and white things coming over so we're giving the and then a big gang from this side'd come over and then all the white swans'd come over, god! +And they were all +there was one behind us, right,in the water and he kept going quack so I thought yeah and then to feed the others,quack oh dear! +We'd been feeding him from the hand like, oh. +And she went up and she said er ah look at those little ducks +she said, so she goes up on the step now, goes to this +Give me then pen, hey give me the pen. +little duck who was out the water and there's a piece of bread, honest to god this big thing come running over like this and she come running down to me like mummy a big duck's coming after you, they're coming +They're quackers about you, that's why Rach. +What? +They're quackers about you. +See them every Friday don't we? +or what? +I haven't looked in yet. +And you got away from him then didn't you? +Thank you. +It's a lot innit? +Twenty four pound +twenty four pound? +Yeah, +Twenty four pound? +Yes +And if you want +Eh she's bald +Change the subject subject on money. +She is, look. +old ladies have gone bald pigtails. +Yeah but she's got more hair than what I got in the front. +Oh well, +Rachael +What? +Come on. +What? +Come on. +One, two, three, four +ah! +tonight,membership card. +Put it back. +I told her but she wouldn't let her +She said got to have a card now. +You can if you've got to have a card. +We've often seen her in the library, her. +I'm skint. +spend your money before you've got it. +I was walking past +That's what you do innit? +Oh aye yeah. +bank. +No I say Jim, I want a Chinese, I'll write you a cheque but don't cash it tonight please . +Oh there's people go down the Chinese with letters and the boy'll give it to me erm can I have so and so, so and so, so and so, so and so, I'll pay you tomorrow when get paid. +you know, for the regulars. +Oh yeah it's then is it? +Jim, can we pay you next month thank you. +No I bloody ain't. +Jon Jon +Forty five minutes so how long we been here? +About forty five minutes innit? +Yeah. +No it's longer than that, bit longer than that. +It's easy innit? +Oh well +Will you shut up ? +What's happening in this? +I've miss I've missed for the last few weeks. +? +You comfy Rach? +And you Becky Button. +You was making that tape yesterday isn't it? +And you were doing exactly the same thing weren't you? +sticker for the window +Rachael you've got enough talents haven't you? +Do you love me Rach? +Do you love me Rachael ? +Rach do you love me? +Do you love mummy? +Do you love nanny? +No! +You've upset her. +She loves Prince . +Where's her sweets +Don't you love me? +Don't you love me? +Eh? +Do you love me? +Do you love me? +Eh? +Do you love me? +Do you want anything Tone? +Nice things for Ian +Have you got a ? +Has she said she loves you yet Je +Mum,mum +Oh it's noisy as well. +Helps baby learn about noise and movement +Eh? +Ah it's nice that phone innit? +Mm. +Do you love me now? +When you give me my two quid back. +Give me a nice kiss, what two quid? +Two you had off me for the fete. +Haven't got somewhere. +Oh sorry! +my four quid that is. +Do you love me ? +Why? +I love you so much. +got to be a reason behind this question. +Well give me a kiss. +Why? +Why? +All of a sudden. +Cos I want to. +Why all of a sudden? +How much commission you getting? +I dunno, how much do you get to sell all this stuff You don't get any cos you, it's not +Ah! +Ah! +I had a dream last night my watch fell apart. +It did. +All them black squiggly lines fell off and the er the front fell off and this little round bit fell off. +Carole give me a kiss please. +Yeah. +Come on then. +What are you after? +He's not coming back in it now Ben is he? +Well he's in this one. +Is he? +Has he been in it? +No haven't seen him yet. +Oh you taped Neighbours did you? +No I watched the end of Neighbours. +And watch watch Neighbours +Watch the end of Neighbours +I watched Home and Away, then I watched +Mind the dog, ooh +When was the last time you seen the five forty news? +They're nice aren't they mum? + +Or determining standards and then setting targets for all of your staff. +Can you tell me how good a job you do? +No +You can't, why not? +Because we're not set any targets and we've never given any feedback from higher +We know who bad we do. +You know how badly you do? +You are +You're told at annual appraisal week. +Well there's not set +If you get an appraisal, unless you get performance review. +I got quite, I was given to it last year, I reckon +How did they do that Kenny, I mean what good, who gave that to you? +The boss +The branch manager. +Yes, he gave us five targets to achieve by the one that we had this year. +Right +I achieved all of that, and more. +So erm, was that when you joined the branch first of all? +Alright, so how did you do that, when you were getting interviewed some place in our area. +Yes, he was totally good, he sat us down. +Cos everybody else got the erm, forms, erm, the appraisal, and the one they had was supposed to be target setting for each department manager. +Well I wasn't there long enough to us an appraisal to he give us, he still give us the targets +Okay +And I was in last week both Saturday's before I came here, and we went through we'd achieved all targets +Alright, so that's kind of an ideal scenario, an interview situation's been very clearly set. +Perfect, what about the rest of you. +Heidi, do you know how you do? +Only because I've just had my appraisal. +Right, so +Only because of that, and what they said in that totally shocked me, because erm, I, he hadn't given me any feedback about how I was doing. +On an ongoing basis? +Yes +Do you think it's right then, that an appraisal should come up with those surprises for you? +No +Why? +Because you should be told constantly, throughout the year, and there should be some kind of re-assessment. +Right, does anybody get that? +No +Anybody at all? +The targets I was given last year in my appraisal weren't covered at all this year in my appraisal by the manager, +yes +They were only brought up by me. +yes, was it, was it a different manager? +It was, but he had the sheet in front of him, which had my targets set on it. +Possibly a lack of planning there. +Anybody else, I mean we've had the erm, the formal target setting, and we've mentioned appraisals? +I mean whether it's good feedback or bad feedback do you get an other feedback on a less formal basis? +Mm +We get bad feedback. +yes, what do you get? +Criticisms, you know. +Criticism, what form does that take? +What are you going to do about it, on the shop floor, it's, it's not done properly? +We get both, +Mm +The formal and the informal. +I've never, in all the time that I've been with the company, I've never had any positive feedback at all. +Although I've had form, nobody's ever told me anything that I should be doing, people come round and say, you haven't done that. +Erm, why's that like that, they don't tell you how to correct it, so often, you know, you don't, you don't know how to avoid making the same mistake next time. +Right. +And you know, you know, what's the point of coming round and giving you a bollocking if nobody's going to tell you why? +I haven't, I haven't had any positive feedback at all, in all the time that I've been there. +Erm, I'm in no man's land at the moment, because I'm like between, between sort of like branches, appraisals are coming up, how can I have an appraisal, I won't have anything. +Ray. +Well I think I've been rather more fortunate, the two branch managers I've had er, before , I'd not had long enough, er, both have given albeit not regular, but feedback both positive and negative, er, when you're doing a good job and when you're doing a bad job, and er, in all honesty, it's probably the appraisal itself, that's actually been unnecessary because of their feedback they're given me during the year, because the appraisal is just a formal repetition of what's already been said. +Yes, I think that's right, I think a lot of people question the validity of appraisals, because you shouldn't be learning anything new, you know, should there be an appraisal. +You shouldn't be, but that's not my experience. +No +Ah, erm, but, do you think that, sorry, do you think the appraisal itself, because it's an annual event, er, some branch managers will get to you with what turns out to be the performance review, and therefore, not doing it during the year, because of the appraisal? +It's a possibility that some may think that, but I can't believe that with the management skills training that they've received up until, up to that level, that they can still honestly think that's correct. +But undoubtedly, +No, I think , in other cases, they just can't be bothered to give you feedback. +Sorry, that's a very negative thing to say, but, +But they don't see you as much as his secretary does either do they? +They don't have as much to do with you, I mean my branch manager doesn't know what division he's in. +But your fresh deputy should be the one who's giving you the feedback, I mean, all the time I was on provisions in my last department, and nobody ever told me how I was doing. +Besides, you know, it's too trivial, there's too many important things, like why haven't you got the special offer on display, to even bother to tell why you're not, why you're not performing or if anything isn't going right. +And it's so demotivating, like you know, how are supposed to get the best out of your staff if nobody can be bothered to tell you how you're doing? +That's right, yes. +That's only like, by they sounds of things, down this way. +Up our way, they all give you feedback, like you know, several branches in like, the North, every branch I've been into, there's always been positive feedback, and negative and positive. +There's only one branch that I've been and that was Bury. +Was that all in one district, Kenny, or was it spread across districts ? +Erm, well the North East and all, I found very good, the two York stores, Harrogate and , erm, that's where I've been involved really, and they've all been very good for that. +Yes, then maybe that's the influence of around the place, the other names. +What about? +You know, my other two other branches were the same, I'm doing a free appointment at, I'm at at the moment, we're supposed to get a two-weekly, when you do a free appointment, they're supposed to sit down with every two weeks and tell you how you're doing. +Erm, it took, it took a week and a half before the fresh foods secretary even spoke to me when I went in this place to do the free appointment, nobody's told me how I'm doing, so then what's the point of doing these things if nobody's going give you anything, it's just a waste of time? +You need to push for yourself sometimes though. +I think a lot of people in a free appointment situation have been stuck like that but you've just got to, squeak and shout out +Mm, push for your training, push to be spoken to +Oh, yes, but they're going on that's to sake of free, at the moment so the last thing that they're interested in doing is talking to me about if I know what I'm doing. +Quite honestly. +Does Steve the district manager know about this, because he's dead against all this, he won't have +No, he knows, no, no, sorry, he knows, he knows all about it. +He's had me there specifically, so I'm just wasting my time. +I think it, it depends on the branch. +The last branch I was in was very small, and I got a lot of feedback from them. +My first department, and I went in and I got a lot of feedback from my deputy, and the branch manager to a certain extent, and I did get it from the district manager as well. +They do when they came in, and they want the stall made like this, and they would say, you know, well you know, I'm paying you to finish that off, you know, how, your next, your next priority to do is this, and they eventually told me what they wanted, and you know, you get on with it. +They started to especially trainee managers,spending periods of time in the smaller branch, and they've got to get on with that concern, but I think there are benefits since they've been doing that. +Turning that issue on its head. +We're talking about what feedback or the lack of feedback you yourself have received, how do you give feedback to your staff? +How do you tell them how well or how badly they're doing? +Just tell them. +If he's got a job there, and he's done it well or he's done it badly, tell him he's done it badly, tell them where they've gone wrong and tell them what they should do to put it right. +Give us, give an example of that then. +Because +I have, I have one fellah in particular, erm, I'm the meat manager, and he puts the ham away, the mess, every time he does it, so I, I tell him, and I show him how to do it, but still, he consistently does it wrong you know. +Right, so when you're actually telling him, what do you say? +I show him, I show him the way I do it, and go through it with him. +Mhm +And show him this is the way you should do it. +But +It's still wrong. +What about the rest of you, how do you give feedback? +A daily meeting really. +A daily meeting? +How do they work? +Yes. +The fresh foods manager will walk us round, with the store manager in the morning, and we have er, whatever they say, we have a meeting, and I have feedbacks to start, and I say what I'm happy with and what I'm not. +I'm in the bakery so if stuff's rubbish I tell them, if it's good I tell them, and then they say well fine, if, if they have any problems we take it, right or wrong. +And how does that go down? +Yes fine, because they can raise any issues. +On a regular basis. +What do the rest of you think about that? +That perhaps it's easier to do in a smaller department, I mean I've got checkouts, and the majority of my staff are part-time, and I've only got three full-timers, so it's quite often the case that at nine thirty, one thirty, five thirty, eight thirty, it's a case of coming in and then relieving somebody else straight away, you don't necessarily have the time to spend with them. +How do you do it, how to do you cope with that? +It's very difficult, because you're, again, I mean, we're saying that we don't get positive feedback, how many of us truthfully give positive feedback through to our staff? +Go on, raise, let's have a hands, then How many give positive feedback to your staff, do you think? +Half the time I would say. +yes +You said that in our newsletter, because our checkout manager said that she's found life extremely difficult with all the changes of shifts, and that in her department they have lots of problems, so she's got like a pro forma checkout news, and she asks them for things that go into this, that they, you know, that they want bringing up, and specific things that they're having difficulty with. +I mean she'll put it in the proper procedure, and then she'll put like operator performance and things, that have erm. +We have erm, we can't put operator performance any more on our district, because we've just erm, stopped that, it doesn't, you know, they don't apply it to performance any more as far as that goes, but erm, I have got three representation, three representatives, which the checkout people nominated themselves and I have a monthly meeting with those to come up with any problems but it's still, you know, that's tackling one issue. +You've still got the problem of addressing praise, because quite often you've only, if you've given somebody a specific task then it's easy to praise or not to praise in that situation, but if they've just come in, done their job and gone home, you know, just sat on a checkout for four hours, right it's my time to leave, then, if they've done nothing out of the blue, extraordinary, so they don't do anything wrong, or, you know. +They don't do anything better or worse +You know, they just do their job don't they. +Yes, it's easy to comment on their performance if you've stood by and watched their shift. +What about those of you that say, you don't give positive feedback, Alex, I notice you were one? +Well I sometimes do when, er, if, I have a tendency when it's, when it's right to praise instantly when it's right and when it's wrong. +You know, when you go straight there, and sometimes you get it, it's not constructive, you know, but if I'm getting jumped on, I tend to perhaps jump, jump down on the people below me. +Yes. +Yes, so sometimes it has a tendency to seem like you're blowing hot and cold. +It's like a kick the cat syndrome, isn't it. +yes, it's sort of like oh, what's his facial expression, oh right, everybody's head down, here he comes. +yes +Oh, he's got a smile on his face, oh we're alright. +Sometimes it's difficult. +It all depends on the reaction that you get from your, your boss. +Your superiors, particularly, yes. +They very , erm, can for volunteers, please. +It's very straightforward. +and Rachel, you can say what you want, you like,, hold that. +Ian,, okay could you all please just draw a house +Rachel, Ian, Gary, Pete, just those four of you, if you just draw a house, please, +Just a quick house, it doesn't have to be a masterpiece. +Right, all finished? +Yes, there we go. +Yes, very nice. +All finished? +Finished, right? +. That is the crappiest house that I've ever seen. +It's just a waste of time. +Now that, that's brilliant. +I just think that's brilliant. +That's great, thank you very much. +, let's have a look at this one. +I think that's very good, I particularly like the way you've got the path coming down from it. +I think maybe you could do with a little more symmetry, particularly on the roof area, but generally I think that's very good. +Thank you. +Right, what happened there, the four of you? +How did you feel? +How did you feel, Gary? +Well I'm quite honestly. +That's all there is, I can't quite work it out. +No seriously, you get so much shit at work, if you took it all to heart, you know, you'd just crack up,and the way I deal with stress like, you know, someone's made my day. +Water off a duck's back. +Do you think that's the case for all your staff? +Erm, not really, well so , +sometimes I'd say +Sometimes, yes they'd say. +It's water off th , their back as well? +Sometimes, yes, and especially when they're juniors +Yes, Tuesdays, the accounts manager, I think if everybody wants to get that reaction, if that's the regular reaction that they get, you know, people dumping on them all the time, it is water off a duck's back, you take it more, you take it more on board if it is an occasional thing,. +Yes, so they start to become immune to it. +yes, and this is the problem, yes, it's inconsistent things, it's like regular, it's just expected. +It's like beating a dog, isn't it? +You do it all the time, they're conditioned to it in the end. +Do you think it's good that people can get to that stage? +No, because there's, er, it's only one step away from not carrying out the job at all, when. +No, because you expect somebody to take pride in what they do, means the job doesn't get as well then. +I just think that even with what you're saying, because , with his, with what, with Gary's own , because they say especially with the students, it's water off a duck's back, but I don't think. +I think the students take a real pride in what they're doing, in our place. +Certain ones do +And they're not just doing it for the money because, you know, if you just sort of give them a mundane task like trolleys for example, they're banging on the door, you know, when can I get off this, when am I going to get some responsibility. +I don't want it, I'm not here just to go and collect trolleys for four hours, and the get really pissed off with it. +So I'm disagreeing with what you're saying, because you, you're tarring them all with the same brush. +I'd like to, I know, that's what I'm saying, you can't generalise like that +what was saying completely +Yes, I agree +Well maybe there's a difference between, I mean are you all in like London then? +No +Ours don't seem to care about what they do. +Your's do? +Yes, but that's probably, I mean, I'm trying to instil that it's got to be done right into them. +I've had two students and the rest of the stores have had two , alright, that's why I'm, I'm desperate for somebody, and I'll take them. +I'll tell you what, they're the best damn students I've ever had. +You can't generalise students, because some of our students are excellent. +I'm quite happy with mine, they do the business. +There's one student in our branch, and she runs the provisions department,in Bolton, yes +Who, who said anything management-wise, that had to be done? and she's just a student +yes +and you do get them, but I understand a lot of them, a majority of them now, er, the university students, or what have you, they don't want to do the overtime, because they've got to study right, they come in, they do the job, and they just don't want any stress. +But it's the working with them, you know, you've got to try and work with them, he's got to go round may be every five minutes and make sure they've put it out, otherwise he's going to stand there doing his university work. +You know it's, +I think in different areas, it's true, it's +I think it's completely over the top I did other work, at least +We've got a lot of different opinions there, I mean from my personal experience when I was a customer sales manager my, my students or particularly some of them, well I would say the brightest kind of people in the branch, and they had the most attention, and it's very easy I think to write them off. +Yes, yes, they have er, a temporary student, and they asked him to leave us, he's, there's no work for him like. +But I've got this other kid, he's twenty eight, and he's absolutely a waste of time, he doesn't know anything about it. +I can't do anything with him, yet this other kid's absolutely brilliant, and I think it's a shame that I've had to leave, like let the temps. +go, so these plonkers can stop here. +There is a lot, there is a lot of tension there isn't there? +It'll have to be sorted out. +Yes, there is a lot of tension somewhere. +I think that's what it's like on customer services, when I was a trainee +I think it's like that with other students as well +Say that again +They're always be other students that will always go along, you know, be on the clock +Mm, how many of you have been students then? +A lot of them have got, have got some chance, it's obvious, you know you've got to tackle it right. +I was +No I wasn't +I was working at Sainsbury's. +How, how many have you been students? +Not for Sainsbury's. +Not for Sainsbury's, but +Well, were you a plonker when you started? +No,, it's just a but he was, you know, I was fairly slow, and then I went on, I followed erm, I ended up slightly , as well, erm, then I went to college up to the age of eighteen, erm, and as soon as I finished college he made me a department manager. +You know, I'd done the section manager part-time, I've done the Saturday's and Sunday's, I've done the share, the fair share of shoving the shit when I had to erm, but, I think you can get a lot of average streams, there is a lot of potential there for one to become a very valued member of staff. +Erm, +The question is, are you tapping that potential? +Yes, if you can, if you can recognise it, or if you've got , or if, several members of erm, several students we had when I was on grocery at Camden, we had to, I think it was twenty eight on Saturday afternoon, they might have been on checkouts, well I mean, they're still scheduled to my , I'm saying out of that about four of them er, are still working at Camden full-time. +They were taken on full-time, they left college, and they want to do whatever they want to do. +Erm, one's er controller, another one's er, a senior warehouseman, another one works out the back door, er, the other one's like Gary, he does bread all the time. +He's solely responsible for the bread. +yes +And it's the section manager, like he does more than the section manager does, because the section manager's a waste of space. +I'll admit he does, erm, you do get exceptions, but I think it can come down to your er, the culture, the student culture. +I mean if you live in a posh area, er, the student's going to take a pride in what he's done, because you know you can give him it every day of his life, and he, he wants to do something, but he wants to do it himself. +Or you get +I don't agree, +, I don't agree with that, it's a load of bullshit +I think the bullshit's yours, it's your , you know, you take somebody on as well. +You know, you can take it so many different ways, +I mean, I've worked with and I am familiar with them, there is very little it's a real run-down area isn't it, in some respects, and you get twenty shoplifters a day, but my students are brilliant, they take a lot of pride in what they do. +I mean it doesn't affect the area, I mean ours did do at branch, our students were erm, I mean they started work in the poultries, and they all had, you know, big cardies, it came from handling. +And because they had the money, they weren't interested, a lot of them weren't interested, yes. +So that erm, it does you good to have a job, it looks good on a C V,and they would do as little as possible, and if you, if you disciplined them, then one of them says oh well, I'll leave, me dad will give me the money anyway. +The dad will just give them the cheque, you know, they've got thirty five pounds, pocket money just for, you know his dad's going to give him the other. +Yes, just listen, I can't imagine why you misunderstood what I was trying to say. +What I'm trying to say is, everyone joins for their own different reasons, you can't generalise that. +That was just one example, like one scenario that might happen. +You know, I'm not saying that's the be all and end all, but it's just one different scenario that may happen, like that. +I think, students are, +Yes, go on +It depends some students are good and some students aren't. +What happens with a student is they're more likely to take the piss. +They're always the ones that are a bit more boisterous, whereas the older ones you have to physically carry on in the shop floor, the students don't, and that's what gives them a bad name. +It's to do with their age as well, you know what I mean. +They're just growing up you know. +People forget that, they're still young people you know. +We were there once. +They're young and so they've got lots of energy. +All the more reason to try and catch them, I think. +You can't put an old head on young shoulders, yes? +That's right,. +What about the other through the hat, Ian? +How did you feel? +Well it was erm, making me go back to something that goes on in branch all the time. +To what I suppose would happen possibly about eighty percent of the time, where you're working, you've worked yourself off to do a superb drawing of a house all day, and er, the branch manager or whoever it may be, is walking round passing quotes, and walks off not really showing any general interest in this superb picture I've just spent all my time doing. +But it's erm, I mean, that is something that happens a lot, erm, it just doesn't give you any motivation, it's sort of, you put your pen down, you think well why the hell do I bother, and you go off home thinking, oh well, the end of the day. +That reminds me of the time at our branch they're doing a visit, and they didn't come down my isle, and they started to walk out, so I said excuse me, have you come to look at my department or not? +He comes out, and he, he went down there, and looked out, because we'd spent a lot of time on it, getting it right, and we were well chuffed about it. +Erm, and I asked him to stop and come down the isle. +He said very nice, as he walked down. +But I think he just walked straight down and walked out like, but, it was just an accident. +At least you made your point. +yes, we made a point, that everybody should be seen. +Yes, and then he'll probably remember you for that. +He, he has a laugh when he comes in now. +What about the others? +Rachel, how did you feel? +Well it was good feedback, I mean you told me what was good about it, what was bad about it, and, and you gave me constructive criticism as to how it could be better as well. +Mhm +You know, perhaps if you straightened up on the side, or made it a bit more symmetrical, so that I know how to improve it next time. +So, there's something given, that entitles feedback I was giving you then, some people referred to it as this. +The praise sandwich, it's something to try and remember. +When you're giving feedback to people, yes, there were going to bad things about what they've done, yes, there's going to be good things, but if you can catch the bad things between two good things, even if the good things are just saying thank you, they're going to go away with a bigger smile on their face, and probably feel more motivated for the next time they do that task. +That's one skill thought about it, isn't there, there's another idea that doing that is actually, has the opposite effect, but the only, you praise somebody, when you're criticising, you say, well look you've well anyway. +You're in danger of every time you're praising that person, they're going to be sitting back waiting for the straight away, so you couldn't, if you go up to somebody and they've generally done a superb job and you can't fault him, and he knows he's done a really good job, but he's just sitting back waiting for you to way what, what you've done wrong. +Whereas I mean,, if you sort of give the criticism first and say the wrong area is that, and then finish it off with the praise, they know where they stand, and when you come up to them and say you've done a superb job, they're not just sitting back, thinking oh yes, what's coming next. +Yes, I mean you can alter it around. +You could say, well thank you for doing that, erm, there are a couple of things that I'm not happy with, and then put the praise on the end. +I think the important thing is not to let them go away thinking, you know, oh, why did I bother, there's obviously no point in carrying on with it. +What about, who's the other person? +Are you talking about me. +Dee +Dee, how did you, how did that feel, the feedback? +It was alright, but I didn't know why it was good, or whether there was anything I should do better, it was just alright then, that's it, I've done it. +I think there's a danger that you can go over the top with praise, in that you're anxious to give quality feedback, the thing that you have to be careful with is that it's not just meaningless like that, because that can be just as bad as giving negative feedback. +You know, they don't come with any idea of how they've done really. +Okay, what I'm going to do now is I'm going to split you in, into groups, I want to split you into two groups, we could have up to you, and the dividing line will be you and then at the back there. +This group, I want you to think about a member of staff that you have who is an asset, okay, a good member of staff. +This group, the opposite, somebody who's a liability, you may have personal experience of this. +Erm, what I'd like both groups to do is, first of all think of words and phrases you'd use to describe that person's performance in a formal scenario, I E in the appraisal, in an interview situation. +Secondly what I'd like, want both groups to do is to think how you would describe that person's performance in an informal situation when you're down the met , down the pub with your mates, or you're in the room, speaking to that person. +Okay, is everybody clear on that? +Right, if this group would like to go syndicate one, and this group to syndicate two, and if you can be back by five to ten minutes. +Straight after +Yes, if you, you don't have, do you want to chart it up, or do you want to just feedback to the group? +Feedback. +One of you put it down there , no get him to write it up sorry. +You obviously might just concur with doing some work or something? +No, no, +with wallpaper. +It's my wallpaper. +Have you got a spare pen please? +My pen doesn't work. +Have you got a bit more paper? +yes. +Thank you very much. +Hi, +Hi, +These are the sort of things we'd say to a good person in a formal situation, erm, you're reliable, trustworthy, you know, we can rely on you to do a good job for us, doing your job well and with enthusiasm, when left in charge there's been no problems, you're responsible and flexible, you're conscientious, I can trust you for, to do a good job and thank you for your contribution to the team. +yes +And we also talked about maybe you could say, erm, you know, if you continue to do a job, maybe we'll look you know, at developing you further, but it's all sort of, pretty similar sort of things you're going to say to him in that situation. +And informal, we came up with a great variety of things. +Erm, great job, thanks a lot, unreal, nice one, topper, you're a star, champion, thanks for doing that for me, and this one was a bit disputed, but we had top banana at the end. +Alright, thanks very much. +I'm pleased. +Right, what about the liability, the liability? +Is this it? +Doesn't anyone else want to do this? +No, we'll leave to you. +You go for that person. +Alright, +Erm, hold on, I'll give you some tape +, this'll do darling. +thank you, it's little things that +Sorry, it's my problem. +Right, that's the other one. +Right, yes, I'll just move this one out of the way a bit, +One or two things up. +Right, this is the liability. +Er,words and phrases, erm, not an asset, I'm just wondering what the title below that, that one, er, inflexible, flexible, +I think it says demotivating. +Oh right, I that that said, I thought that was another D, it couldn't be, demotivated, erm, you're too set in your ways, lack of detail, lack of commitment, irresponsible, is that, yes, lack of respect for your superiors, erm, disillusioned, you know, we er, we were going to put down things like er, mentally challenged, and things like that, but it didn't go down too well. +Right, this is the easy one. +, I mean it's a lot easier to think of these things than it is for the other one, er, you would say, that was actually lazy bastard, but we didn't want to offend anybody, er, useless git, +Er, there was a great dispute about what this one could have been, I mean this, what the scenario's wide, but I think we'll settle for waste of space. +Erm, taking the mick, she's winding me up, thick as shit, obnoxious twat, +I wished they'd er, fuck off +Leave the company? +yes, so, erm, if only they would resign, er, need a kick up the arse, +You're a pain in the arse. +Yes,, but that's, that's the year before, okay. +Thank you very much, thank you. +Okay, let's have a closer look at these,Right, just, read a few of those words there, why do you think have a ring around some of those words? +What is it about them? +Specifically? +Are they in areas? +They're key words in anyone's er,response. +Right. +They're descriptive of their erm, +They're descriptive, any other ideas why I might have rung them, erm, ringed them? +You should set standards by them as well. +Okay, yes, +You can tell them in person what they are. +Right. +It's what you judge them by, if you set performance. +Okay, any other ideas? +Okay, if I say to somebody, erm, Alex, you're very responsible, okay, Karen I think you're very flexible, erm, Tony, you're very , erm, very reliable,, I mean, in is , in isolation, what do they, do they mean anything? +No, +Not really, +No +So we think of them as being descriptive, but in reality, if you're going to say to somebody, you're very responsible, they're probably not going to know what you mean, unless you come up with a few examples of what you're talking about, of how they've demonstrated that type of behaviour. +Similar things like inflexible,okay, let's take another look at some of these words, it's not so much of this where they're an asset,, now I would imagine, that some of these as well as being things possibly you'd say to your, your colleagues when you're down the pub talking about your staff. +Occasionally, is anyone going to own up to ever having said that to somebody? +Yes +Yes, we've all actually said this to their face. +And all the rest. +And all the rest, okay. +Now bearing in mind what we talked about yesterday, why did those comments be potentially damaging, apart from the fact that they're extremely insulting? +Because they're not constructively criticising them are they? +They're just insulting them +Yes, they're insulting +The, they're resulting in a negative action, reaction from the person that they are addressing. +That's right. +And yet, when you've tried all the rest, it comes down to this, and it makes you feel better anyway, but it's the last resort +,it's a last resort. +One thing, yesterday, we were talking about my wonderful stick man,here he is basically made up of his personality, a number of attitudes and outward behaviour. +What did those comments get at?. +What did they refer to? +The person, his personality. +Yes, they, they're talking about that person's personality, and their personality is not something they can change. +No +So basically if you're going to se , tell somebody they're a waste of space, it's not very constructive, it's personal, and I wouldn't say it unless you can tell them why you think they're a waste of space at least. +I can. +This is, er, this is the same face as you, yesterday I was on about, we've tried everything, it's getting down to that now. +yes, but it's not working either +It's just a shame that you've got to +yes +for the time being. +You should only criticise when you're +Well he, he turns round when he wants to be screamed at , he's asked us to hit him. +But you've decided why you, you're just rising to the bait then aren't you, if these arguments are between you, and you're coming out with all this, it just makes you look stupid because you're, you're into , aren't you? +I say, Carl, I think he needs to see +So he was really good, and now he's, he's gone bad now, and you're using things like this to say to him. +He, he's trying to make, he, he's making him, you aggressive isn't he and I would say that he's just thinking it's low if I'm going and this guy because, you know +Yes, yes, I've said, I've said this, yes,why +Things like that are not constructive at all, I mean I know you must get to the stage with some members of staff where you think oh, what else can I do, but +Yes, but there's no point you doing it that because it's like, if they are a waste of space you're not going to be able to get rid of them because you've told them that they're a waste of space, it needs to be something that's much more positive, than just going round saying that. +This is it, I've tried, this is why I've not talked to somebody else about it, because nobody else is listening. +And it explains to them why has come out screaming at them and screaming abuse at them. +I think that there's something that needs to be addressed there. +It does doesn't it? +I think it needs more time round here, that's +Yes +Sorry, again? +If you had more time round, you'd use that sort of language with themselves. +You know. +Yes, I think that, particularly, that sounds particularly what you want then. +That is, those types of things are getting at somebody's personality, and they're not constructive. +If you're going to criticise somebody what I would say is, talk about their behaviour, because that's something that they can change, talk about it in those terms. +Right. +I'm going to show you a video now. +Erm, how many of you went on the basic management skills course? +Yes, most of you. +Do you remember the videos, the unorganised manager? +The ones with the job +Right, well this is part three in that series, and I would like you to do one of, I'd like you two things while you're watching it. +Firstly, make a note of all of the bully words and phrases that James Bolham uses when he's talking about, or talking to, or talking about this man's management. +Okay, bully things, possibly in, in isolation don't mean very much, put them over there. +Secondly, I'd like you to identify the three members of management that he's dealing with, are called Barbara, oh God, what are they called, Barbara, Ted and Doughnut. +That's to see if you can identify what the problems are with each of those three, and why they're experiencing difficulties in their job. +okay. +I don't think I've ever the furniture. +I think we might need the blinds down for this, otherwise it's going to glare on the screen. +So +a problem. +Thank you for all the effort to put the blinds down very much. +, only trouble on it, when it . +Yes the erm, the Celestial Times Colour Supplement +Yes +I don't talk to the press much I'm afraid. +Well if you could spare us a few moments, we'd be most grateful, your , it's for a new series we're contemplating, A Day in the Afterlife. +I see. +I tell you what, I'll, do sit down, so erm, you want to give people some idea of my jobshare as gate-keeper? +Exactly. +Yes, well I'm a kind of glorified immigration officer really. +You mean, keeping all the rotters out? +The rotters, the cads, the bounders, the bad-hats, exactly, yes. +It's my job to weed out the black sheep really, it's pretty straight forward. +But you must get borderline cases from time to time. +Grey sheep as it were, where you have to exercise your powers of discretion? +Very occasionally, yes. +We get the odd mis-routing, there was a chap recently, er, should , you know, where, the truth is, he was a technical sinner, not a real baddie, so I decided to stretch a point, and send him back down again to try and teach him where he went wrong. +What was his name? +Lucan. +Really? +No, no, Lupin, no, no, not Lucifer, but like that. +Luther? +Lewis, Richard Lewis. +God if ever there was an unorganised manager, there he is, never sorted out his priorities, couldn't delegate to save his life, never had time for anything, +Tomorrow, Jimmy I can't do everything. +In the end of course, he snapped, gave himself an early coronary. +Mr. Taylor, erm, Mr. Taylor, +So anyway, I er, I decided to give him a second chance, so I explained calmly, and with grim patience, +of course it is, but we've got to plan it and take it to , I mean +But what he'd got to do was to plan his time, and work out his priorities, by distinguishing between those tasks that are urgent and those tasks that are important. +And then to organise his schedule accordingly, by allowing time for both active and reactive tasks. +You will get that won't you? +Urgent and important, active and reactive. +It took a little time, but er, eventually he got it, and now I'm delighted to say he's one of the most organised managers on earth. +See that, a model manager. +These pictures are live by satellite, incidentally. +There we are Maggie, the morning's correspondence. +Nine twenty five. +Ring Philip and B T, not that there's been any problems. +Ah, Mr. , Richard Lewis here, Barker and Gibbs Catering, we spoke yesterday. +It's amazing, he's a different man. +I'm rather proud of it, yes, I think you can take it from me, Richard Lewis is one earthly executive we will be seeing up here. +Now, er, tea? +Coffee? +Nectar? +Nectar please, very dry. +That's fine then Mr. , many thanks indeed, bye. +Oh, that all seems to be going swimmingly. +Now, in a couple of minutes it'll be time for the district managers. +Martin, Bernard here. +Well how much are they asking? +For an extra two hours' shift,well I suppose we can just afford it, can we? +Er, okay then Martin, I imagine as long as we keep our heads above water, then that'll be okay. +A couple of ? +I don't think so Barbara, it's a bit difficult to tell isn't it? +It's unfair, Bernard, you've been in this job much longer than me, what do you think about this new menu for the canteen at Digby's Ballbearings? +Crunchy nut salad,t , what's tortellini? +Pasta, stuffed with spinach and cheese, spinach is full of iron you know. +Yes, wouldn't bangers and mash be a bit more +But Bernard, sausages are full of preservatives, pork takes longer to digest than any other meat, and potatoes are ninety percent water. +Morning all. +Morning Maggie. +Nice to see you, you're working today are you? +It's Tuesday, I thought Tuesday was golf, or is that just Monday, Wednesday, Thursday and Friday. +No Friday's is gloating about my profits. +How are yours by the way? +Mm +Erm, I'm tired, Tony, sorry. +Erm, I was up half the night typing this stupid report. +Half the night? +Report, what report? +I did mine when I came in this morning. +Is that all? +What are you talking about? +The report on the projected sales for the next quarter, he asked for it at the last meeting, it's okay. +But he didn't want that today, surely? +It's nine thirty, Mr. Lewis will see you now. +Right, that's the end of that then, so let's move on to the projected sales reports I asked for last time. +, there we are, +There we are Mr. Lewis. +What the hell's this? +My report. +I meant a summary, not War and Peace. +Well you never said how long you, +Barbara, really +I, I was up till one putting that together. +I can well believe it, it's a wonder your typewriter didn't get a hernia. +I'm sorry Barbara, but time's a budget item with me these days, I can't wade through all this. +Just summarise it, two pages is enough, here look like Tony's, he knew what I wanted. +Lucky guess, really. +Bernard, I don't seem to have yours here. +Yes, I'm afraid I haven't done it yet Mr. Lewis. +Haven't done it, but I told you I wanted it today. +No you didn't, you said you wanted it as soon as possible, and so far, I'm afraid, it just hasn't been possible. +Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear. +I'll try and get round to it first thing in the morning. +Well do will you, this is putting my system right out of gear. +Now look everyone, I'll come straight to the point, a lot of things simply aren't good enough. +I couldn't believe last month's figures when they came in. +Well look at them, just look at them, I think they speak for themselves, don't they? +And one of you I'm particularly disappointed in at the moment, I don't want to name any names because I don't think it's right to embarrass her in front of the others, +But in general there's a lot of room for improvement all round, all except Tony, it's good work. +But for God's sake, buck your ideas up. +Now then, that new vending machine I told you about last time. +Here's the literature on it, and I want a big Autumn push on this one, it's a high profit item for us. +How many orders are you hoping for, ideally? +As many as you can get. +Ah, I've got you, when do you expect them in by? +As soon as possible, +B , yes, but +Oh, for goodness sake, just use your common sense, will you all of you. +I think you expect me to spell everything out, oh, just hang on for a moment will you Barbara, fine. +Thank you Tony. +Er, now look Barbara, I know you haven't been in the job as long as the other two, but er, really you're going to have to do better than this I'm afraid. +I think you know what I'm talking about don't you? +Er, yes, of course Mr. Lewis. +People just aren't very happy with the type of food you're serving Barbara. +Oh I see, oh right, Mr. Lewis. +These people want something satisfying, so you will try and do something about it won't you? +Yes, of course, I understand Mr. Lewis. +Right then, off you go then, it's my head that's on the chopping block so you pull your socks up eh. +Have you time to , +Idiot +Richard Lewis, oh yes Sir, er, yes Sir, I've just seen the figures, I've been talking to them about it, oh yes, I've told them exactly what's wrong, but they don't seem able to well yes Sir, I know it's not good enough, but what can you do if you've got idiots working for yo , what's that,oh no Sir, I'm not asking you,what, hello. +Oh damn, oh that's really great, I get the blame for these pompous, fat- headed morons, well I'll tell them, the next time I'll really tell them. +And what first interest did your gatekeeping, your ? +Well er, oh, manner +Yes. +Do you know the story of the keys? +No +Well it, it's quite a long one, but you might be able to make something of it, erm, there was this rock and erm +Well I'll them, the next time I'll really tell them +Do you +You mean what on earth, is he supposed to be doing that? +I mean, is it a new management technique or something? +No, no, I, I think he's having er, another erm, excuse me. +Shan't be a moment. +Front door please. +Oh my God. +No only his personnel manager, are you alright? +Saint Peter? +Are you alright? +Yes, no, it just isn't fair. +They don't listen, and I get the blame. +I mean I keep on tell +Keep it short , I'm doing an interview. +It's a long story, +Urgent or important? +What? +Oh, but. +Well you'd better get in, you can tell me on the way up. +Mm? +Well? +I always get the blame, I'll be back in intensive care again at this rate, you mark my words, you should see the shambles they make of everything I ask them to do. +Miss Angel of , here's Mr. Richard Lewis, +How do you do? +You will recall, no doubt, er, Mr. Lewis was, oh +Right, if those of you sitting at the sides could stand up, move your chairs to the side please, and move the tables out as well. +Thank you. +And then come round and stand in the middle please. +, +If you'd all like to come and stand in the middle,yes +After all these erm, can I come round there? +Right, we're going to have an exercise in giving each other positive feedback. +The way we're going to do this, I'll kick it off, I'll be standing in here, and , and I'll do a little act, okay? +Now this act can take any form you like, I could go or I can go right, then I'll go like this, and I want you all give me a great big round of applause. +Okay. +As enthusiastic as possible. +Then, I will say, ladies and gentlemen, I would like to present to you, and I'll choose somebody else, and the next person comes out and does an act, and then introduces the next person, okay. +And I want a lot of applause. +I want really loud applause , okay. +Right, okay +Yes, alright, don't get too carried away. +, +Ladies and Gentlemen, I would like to present to you the one, the only Anthony. +, Tony, +Sean, Sean +Thank you +I'd like to present to you Alex. +, Claire +,, +Stephen,Stephen +I didn't hear my name, sorry. +Introducing the one, the only Gerard +What are we supposed to do? +I mean, there's lots of sets of playing cards, alright, you've just got to do an action? +A little action, yes. +A handstand +And we'll give you a round of applause. +oh, oh, you've got to complete it. +Anything, anything. +, +Er, +Introducing the one and only Michael. +I give to you Helen +, +,,, +John, +,, +I introduce to you , +That's it. +Sophie +, +I feel Sophie, this is actually great. +. +Right, so if you'd like to pull your tables back in and sit, resume your seats please. +Okay then, back to the video we were looking at before break. +You erm, very accurately analysed what the problems where with Barbara, who didn't know her job, didn't know who her customers were etcetera, Bernard and Tony. +Now I'm sure you can relate this to people that work with you, or the situation that you yourself have come across, how would you go about, first of all with Barbara, how you can improve the situation? +I thought that's all been, you know, +Why? +Why not? +Why not,, say Barbara, what would you do with Barbara? +Sit her down and tell her exactly what her job is, set the targets and what you expect her to achieve. +Right. +And explain to her that although she did a good job with the Board of Directors, but erm, the ballbearings people wanted something different. +Okay, so it's the idea, Barbara,sit her down, and explain what the job is. +How does Sainsbury's, I mean, what do we have that covers that action? +The job description. +The job description, do you think that's a valid way of doing it? +No +It's a bit formal, isn't it. +It's a bit formal, right so let me see. +No, but possibly you could sit down together and go through it. +Your job description covers a multitude, and the fact that it frames the needs of the business, doesn't it? +yes, that's it. +That's the catchword, isn't it. +So possibly go through the job description together. +For the staff, we've got those checklists haven't we? +Right, how do they work? +Well it's like erm, the store instructors are supposed have trained them on those specific things, +yes +And they, it basically says, there's erm, replenish, or rotate stock, and they sort of tick or sign to say that they've done it. +Right. +But erm, sometimes they haven't covered it completely, or don't understand it, they've just ticked it, and signed it to say that they know what they're doing. +Okay, so you go into that in a lot more, in a lot more detail. +Right so first, you'd sit her down, and you go through the job description perhaps, what about an on-going basis? +I think maybe at first she should have a morning meeting, or a weekly meeting, to discuss the menus for the following week. +Okay +And perhaps +Meetings on a regular basis. +Try and encourage her , excuse me, try and encourage her to come and see you whenever she's got a problem. +Over a period of time, it's the meetings to begin with, but if you could then reach a stage where she could sort most problems out herself and only came to you when necessary. +Okay, so that's offering support, if you need a hand at the moment? +Alright then, what about Bernard? +What would you do with him? +He already knows his job, to an extent +You've got to set him targets, you know specific targets and deadlines and things. +Right, now, do you mean targets, or do you mean standards, when you say targets? +Well, I suppose it's standards. +He's got to know the company targets +Right +In order to do his job. +Okay, so you would make sure he knew that. +I mean, I think there's, there's basically a difference between standards and targets, can anybody explain what that is? +Standards are the minimum acceptable, and the target's what you want to achieve. +Right, so, when you set a standard, is that to one person or for everybody? +Everybody +Okay, does everybody agree with that, or not? +yes +Yes, and a target, where does that come? +If the standard's there, where does the target come? +Above it. +Above it, yes, okay. +So Bernard really needs to be what the company has in mind. +I mean they were talking on the video about profit margins, but he didn't company he was supposed to achieve, presumably there was a minimum for all three of them, so What else would you do with Bernard? +I mean he's fairly lacking in confidence and whatever? +Tell him the bits that he does do right. +Right. +There must be something. +Pardon? +There must be something. +, so it's praise they're due? +, Was that it for Bernard or is there anything else? +He needs time skills as well, instead of just doing things as soon as possible because you get to the things that become more pressing take over, +yes +and you're just fighting, but he needs time skills in which to do things. +Mm, Okay Okay, what about Tony then? +Has anybody got a Tony? +I did have. +You did have, what happened to him? +Or what was, what was the scenario? +It's er, section manager at erm, a couple of years, but erm, well for the job, very well educated. +Erm, all I can say from his view point, erm, totally bored, nothing to, educated. +Erm, all he needs time skills indy? +Mm +He was practically running the department while I was working on the store for him, and he's ready for further things than that, +I see +Before he was very, very bored, no challenges for him, nothing to do, erm, this guy's been at director level, er, trouble-shooting for large abattoirs, going in and sorting problems out, and picking them off the ground, so he's had loads of challenges, erm, the company's just so slow for him. +Erm, and now we're trying to side-track into, just pile everything on to him, he loves it, he thinks it's wonderful. +Yes, anybody +And he's sort of picked himself up now, and he's more , where I'm getting involved. +, you've got your job. +Anybody else? +Yes, I've got a price controller that she, erm, can do her job in eight, nine hours, and it's all she wants to do. +If you give her anything else, she can do that as well, she tries not to get involved, but I try to keep giving her more, so she's not getting bored with the job. +How's that working out? +Fine, she always manages to do it, she complains at first that she's got too much to do, but she always gets in done in time, as well as her own work. +Which works out for both of you. +What about any , anybody else had anything like that? +Yes, I've got a guy in, well I've got a couple of people on the shift, and er, the more you give them to do, they just love it, but the thing about it is, I think the mistake that I certainly make from time to time, is the more you give them to do, you've sort of erm, taken something from somebody else, and then it, it's trying to keep that erm, trying to keep that more level, and fairness to everybody. +Oh, yes,, I've got a supervisor at , who talks , she used to forty cases, and now she does sixty, seventy cases, excellent. +But, Debbie was just getting to the stage where she was just to same on the shift, erm, but yes, you need, like,th , the, you get certain people that, they just need the challenge, but then you can find yourself erm, getting into a situation where you're giving them those extra things to do but you're taking them away from somebody else, so they're like just going into the background, you know. +How does it, I mean, has that, have any of the other people on your shift had a bad reaction to that? +No +They haven't? +No, no, they're not complaining because they're getting an easy time, er, I mean, I've got a couple like that as well. +And if er, I mean one of these girls is worth maybe three others, you know, they're all erm, they'll , and still clear the shopfloor, get them downstairs, and sweep up for you in say, four hours, and one person does that while the rest . +You know and he's, just the, you know, you can, you can really turn it around. +But er, the job's just what he sees, they're just not bothered. +They, they'll do their part, they see that part as their responsibility, as er, the rule, restocking the wares when I first went there, now they'll do, like more than one isle per night each, and get away with, when I first went there, we used ten people a night. +And now we get away with five or six. +Mm, gosh. +You know, er, and we're still achieving the same job at a lot higher standard. +Which is great. +Yes, because you know, erm, we still save money on labour costs, erm, but there again when you get, when people do go sick, it's er, it's quite detrimental, so everyone's having to work even harder. +You go on a management scheme, it cut's back your headcount even more, you know. +If you show what you can do with less, you er, +Yes, you know,y , you get penalised for it. +Yes, nasty. +Anybody else? +Have an experience with a high flyer? +Anybody been in our situation themselves? +I once worked in the shopfloor in a factory, putting cream on to cream cakes, when I finished college, and they took me out and put me in the lab even though I didn't have any science degree, and I was in the labs for three months. +How did they , how did they identify that then? +Well they knew that I was a graduate in erm, they had two, they had a, a lab manager and an assistant, and they both went sick at the same time, and er, they asked me if I'd do it. +They told me it was just like following recipes, and it was so I did. +It was more interesting that doing this stuff to all the cream cakes . +It's probably a similar situation at er, the last company I worked for, used to have me, me lunch hour, I used to go down the swimming baths and do two and half hours there. +The job was still done in daylight hours, but you took an hour and half out every day like, but that's +But that was, you weren't really being challenged there, were you? +No +No, okay, well, I'll put on erm, part four of the video now, of this same unorganised manager, and you can see how Richard Lewis went about trying to solve the problems of his managers, and see if you agree with them or not as the case may be. +I'm afraid I'm going to put the blinds down again, or do you think? +I do apologise for this noise. +Start at the end. +No it's too late for that now, we'll have to start at the beginning. +So, er, you can organise yourself, but you can't organise other people, right? +Yes, but why can't they organise themselves? +Because it's your responsibility +I mean they're so useless, why don't you bring them up here and grill them too? +We don't grill up here, they look after that in the basement as you'll probably soon discover, unless of course you go to the lower basement. +Lower basement? +Yes, the basement is for those who fail, the lower basement is for those failures who blame their failure on their supporters. +So let's take a look at your three district managers. +Three people, each representing a particular failure of yours. +First of all, let's look at Barbara, who doesn't understand what she's supposed to be doing, because you've failed to tell her clearly what her responsibilities are. +Then there's Bernard, who doesn't know how well he's supposed to be doing because you failed to give him standards of performance that he could measure his efforts by. +And finally, there's Tony, who's wasting a lot of his time because you haven't giving him enough targets to keep him interested and to develop his potential, and to get the best out of him. +Three failures, therefore, right, to clarify responsibilities, to set standards, and to agree targets. +But it's not all my fault. +Yes, could you say that just a little louder, I'm not sure that they caught it down in the lower basement. +Now, let's start with your first problem. +,Well done , he's right, no you weren't, I was just calling an order down to the lower basement. +Er, no, not Barbara. +Erm, failure to clarify Barbara's +The first thing you've got to do with your subordinate, is to tell them what their job is. +They know that. +Oh really? +Well they're not missionaries are they, or tail gunners, they're district managers in a catering company. +Look Tony and Bernard may have found out what their job is the hard way, but Barbara certainly know. +But what does she think it is then? +Why don't we find out. +You see I'm what's called a district manager. +What's that involve? +Well I'm a sort of ideas woman, and er, advisor, primarily to a series of canteens. +My job is to use my knowledge and experience of catering to make sure that the meals are exciting, varied enough, and above all they're nutritionally balanced, high protein, low carbohydrate, plenty of fibre, and the key vitamins and minerals. +It's quite a challenge really. +Well do you agree with her description of the job. +I, I, +Well how is she supposed to find out from you what her job is, tarot cards, reading the leaves in your empty tea cups, extra-sensory perception? +Waiter, take her, her away. +How about telling her, and when you do tell her, start at the very beginning. +Remember this, your purpose you toyed executive, is to provide quality food at prices your clients can afford, while maximising your profit margin, am I correct? +Well if you put it like that, yes, that is the company's purpose. +Therefore it's yours. +There, that's always with you. +Simple isn't it? +So, what is Barbara there for. +About another twenty four hours if she doesn't buck her ideas up. +Over done with tea sauce Now have ever actually told her what her job is. +A thousand times, I told her half an hour ago. +Did you? +Well I think we should take another look at what you actually said this time with subtitles for those poor people who aren't telepathic. +Erm, now Barbara, I know you haven't been in the job as long as the other two, but er, really you've got to do better than this I'm afraid. +I think you know what I'm talking about don't you, I mean it's not as if you're totally new to the business? +No, er,ye , yes of course. +People just aren't happy with the type of food you're serving Barbara. +But, oh, I see, oh right Mr. Lewis. +These people want something satisfying, so you will try and do something about it won't you? +Yes, of course, I understand Mr. Lewis. +She didn't quite get my drift did she? +Not terribly no, so, you must define for her clearly what her responsibilities are. +What are they? +To see that each of her catering units operates to the highest standard possible while balancing our clients' requirements against profitability with due regard to company policy. +Good, then you must make her responsibilities even clearer, by defining key areas where she is to get a result. +Well that's not so easy. +No I thought it might not be, let's put it another way. +What are the principle areas in which your district managers can cock things up. +Oh, don't get me on to that one. +Overspending, complaints from customers, failure of public health inspection. +Alright, that's three for a start. +Three what? +Three key areas where you can establish if you need decent results. +Budget control, customer satisfaction and hygiene. +Now, do those define the job fully? +No +Go on then. +Well there's profitability, new business. +Two more to use on areas, now would you like to tell some of this to Barbara? +Yes. +Tomorrow morning, nine thirty? +Okay. +But I thought I was promoted because everyone was going on about my originality. +I thought you wanted the same approach. +Well that's my fault for not making your new job clearer. +That was great when you were a unit manager for a Directors' Boardroom, but it's not right now for a work's canteen. +Oh +You see your canteen takings have dropped by nearly twenty percent over the last two months. +Have they? +Well you should know that? +Should I? +I thought that if people were unhappy +It's one of your principle responsibilities, how many times have I told you? +I er, look, erm, what I should have done is clarify what you're doing here. +Now, I wrote this out. +Oh. +Yes, and I've broken it up into parts, I'll be doing the same with Bernard and Tony, incidentally. +Key areas. +Right, they're the make or break areas which comprise your job. +Now I'd like to go through each of them with you now and then again in two weeks' time, and hear any suggestions you may have. +Oh right. +So the first lesson in organising your staff successfully is to define their responsibilities, tell them what they're there for. +Then, establish the key area in which the person doing that job must achieve results, and review them regularly to make sure your employee always has the same view of the job as you do. +Well that'll help me with Barbara, but it doesn't solve Bernard's problem. +He knows what his responsibilities are, but he doesn't get decent results. +Well how do you expect Bernard results if you don't tell him which results are decent? +Come again? +Alright, we've dealt with responsibilities, lesson two, standards. +Ah, ha, I'm a stickler for standards. +Are you? +Oh yes, every month I call him into the office and I say, it still isn't good enough, pull your socks up. +How far? +I'm sorry? +How far do you tell Bernard to pull his socks up, an inch, three inches, a foot? +I don't understand. +Well it's not good enough, you're not doing your job properly. +I know, well +You've got to do better. +But how? +By bucking your ideas up, by getting a grip on yourself, above all, by pulling your socks up. +But how? +Exactly. +All those phrases, useless. +Woolly management of the worst kind. +Er, a substitute for thought and no help to anyone. +No look, every employee needs to be set standards of achievement below which he must not fall. +Now these standards need to be visible, common to everyone in the same job, and fixed, er, like a yardstick, by which the employee can measure his activities for himself. +If you don't give him a yardstick, you get this. +We're talking about a complete refit really. +Replace cookers, instal new deep freeze units, streamline all the worksurfaces, here you are, you won't get it done any cheaper than that I can promise you. +My God, will it really cost this much? +Listen, I'm doing you a favour. +I've got to be so careful, that's the trouble, I never know when my boss is suddenly going to bite my head off. +Still, I think we're making enough to cover it. +You see, the poor didn't know whether he could afford the contract or not. +He's having to operate on guesswork. +Guesswork. +Yes, erm, do you remember that report your staff handed in this morning? +There you are Mr. Lewis. +Thanks, what the hell's this? +It's my report. +I meant a summary not War and Peace, just two pages. +Here look like Tony's, he knew what I wanted. +If you only wanted two pages you should have said so, you could have said something like I only want two pages. +It's not difficult. +Oh erm, Bernard, I don't seem to have yours here. +I'm afraid I haven't done it yet Mr. Lewis. +Haven't done it, but I told you I wanted it in today. +No you didn't, you just said you wanted it as soon as possible, and so far I'm afraid it just hasn't been possible. +If you wanted the report handed in by a certain day, why didn't you say so? +I mean if you'd set precise standards in the first place, you wouldn't have caused all that confusion. +So what is a standard then? +A standard is quite simply a measurement, imposed by you on your staff, that tells them exactly what's expected of them. +It enables your staff to know themselves how well they're doing their job, and if they're keeping up to the mark. +It helps them. +I've heard the theory but you can't actually set measurable standards in all the jobs can you? +If you think about it, you'll find you can. +Well, we may not have enough time for that, so erm, let's imagine that you're a sales director, and, now this is more difficult. +Let's imagine that you're an effective one. +Now these are the minimum standards we expect from our salesmen. +No fewer than ten cold calls each month, all cold call reports must be filed within seven working days of a visit, and a minimum of eighty calls to be made per month to existing customers. +Mm? +Oh I see, I am laying down precise quotas so my staff can see at once if things aren't up to scratch. +Right. +Ah, but sales is easy. +Alright, you're a production manager. +Right so we've agreed on a maximum of sixteen and three quarter percent paper wastage, three hours setting up time, and er, four and half hours printing. +Well alright, but sales and production are easily quantified, you can't have measurable standards for everything. +You can. +You'll find everything is measurable in terms of one or more of these four factors. +Quality, quantity, time, cost. +Everything? + +The clergy daughters' school at Cowan Bridge run by the Reverend William . +Charles and Emily followed a couple of months later. +Maria was eleven, Elizabeth, nine, Charlotte, eight, and Emily, six. +But the Reverend was fiercely repressive of the children's spirit, the food was very poor and the girls were often starved and cold . +Well starved and stark because +Yes. +Yes. +starved at least. +Erm, I'm sure erm Abby is, is supposed to be a fairly accurate representation of what it was like at school. +Maria developed T B, and died at home in eighteen twenty five, aged twelve. +And Elizabeth, a month later aged ten. +And then their father brought Charlotte and Emily home for good. +The four children invented imaginary countries and characters and threw themselves fiercely into it. +With Branwell and Charlotte especially er, developing a country called Angria. +And Emily and Anne, a country called Gondal. +In eighteen thirty one Charlotte was sent to the, to Roe Head School at Murfield She was at first homesick, but eventually carried off three prizes. +She left the following year having exhausted all the tuition the school could offer. +In eighteen thirty five she returned as a teacher, her salary to pay for first Emily's, and then Anne's tuition there. +In eighteen thirty seven Emily became a governess, and then, so did Anne and Charlotte. +In forty one, Charlotte and Emily travelled to Brussels to become pupils at the Mes en des occasion pour les jeune desmoiselles Er, Charlotte fell in love with the principal, but he didn't reciprocate. +Erm and she returned, when she returned as a teacher without Emily in forty three. +And she returned home desolate the following year . +Er, I'm sure you remember about Anne's little erm, encounters and Thorpe Green, and how Branwell got into trouble. +Back home, together, finally, the sisters published their collective poems under the aliases of Currer Ellis, and Acton Bell in eighteen forty six. +Erm, in September eighteen forty eight, Branwell died of T B aged thirty one. +In December, Emily, aged thirty, and in May, forty nine, Anne aged twenty nine. +Charlotte was then left alone with her father. +She wrote Shirley, and Villette. +Became very well known, and a friend of Mrs Gaskell. +Married her father's curate, against his snobbish wishes, in eighteen fifty four the Reverend Arthur Bell Nicholls. +Honeymooned in Ireland where her husband came from. +And died almost certainly of excessive sickness in pregnancy aged thirty nine. +Er, her father lived on for another six years. +And Nicholls returned to his family home in Ireland. +The Professor was published posthumously in eighteen fifty seven . +I'm sure this is all very familiar territory. +Brontes' lives are almost sort of erm part of British history aren't they? +You know . +Right. +Erm Would anyone like to give us a plot resume in Jane Eyre? +I could read it from the Oxford +History of English Literature if nobody wants to do it. +Shall I read it? +Yes. +The heroine, a penniless orphan has been left to the care of her aunt, Mrs Reed. +Harsh and unsympathetic treatment rouses her defiant spirit and a passionate outbreak leads to her consignment to Lowood Institution. +There, consoled for the severity of the regime by the kindness of the superintendent Miss Temple, and a fellow orphan, Helen Burns she dies in Jane's arms of, who dies in Jane's arms of consumption she spends her miserable years, eventually becoming a teacher. +On Miss Temple's marriage, she obtains a post as governess at Thornfield Hall, to Adele the illegitimate daughter of Mr Rochester, a Byronic hero of grim aspect and sardonic temper. +Rochester, despite Jane's plainness, is fascinated by her sharp wit and independence, and they fall in love. +After much resistance, she agrees to marry him. +But +on the eve of their wedding her wedding veil is rent by an intruder, who Rochester assures her is a servant Grace Poole but who is the next day revealed to be his mad Creole wife Bertha, confined to the upper regions of the hall for years, whose unseen presence has long disturbed Jane. +The marriage ceremony is interrupted by Mrs Rochester's brother from the West Indies. +And despite Rochester's full confession and pleadings with Jane to stay with him, she flees. +After nearly perishing on the moors, she is taken in and cared for by the Reverend St John Rivers and his sisters Mary and Diana. +It is, emerges that they are her cousins and that Jane has inherited money from an uncle. +The legacy is equally divided between the four. +Under pressure from earnest appeals and strong personality of the dedicated Rivers, Jane nearly consents to marry him and share his missionary vocation in India, but is prevented by a telepathic appeal from Rochester. +She returns to Thornfield Hall to find the building burned, and Rochester blinded and maimed from his attempt to save his wife from the flames. +She marries him, and in the last chapter we learn that his sight is partially restored . +I know it's always the way with plot resumes, but there are actually one or two minor mistakes there aren't there? +I found one +Yes. +immediately! +Well I may say so. +Yes do. +I understood Rochester said to Jane that he wasn't sure er, his French had spent so many +Mhm. +men that he, he didn't even know if it was his. +That's right. +And I had the impression that, he just adopted this child through sheer sorrow and sympathy for her but, did not say, erm, categorically that that was his. +No. +He calls her his board. +Erm +That's right. +yes. +I mean, that could of been er er, an element of Victorian proprietary in there. +Yes. +Yes. +But, he, he, does make it plain to Jane that he doesn't know +No. +Yes. +if Adele is his daughter? +And this one says, quite emphatically, that is was. +Yes. +Mm. +That's right. +Also, Helen Burns isn't an orphan if you remember. +Oh yes! +Yes. +She's actually got a father. +Yes. +Yes. +Mm mm. +Erm +And actually, er, it doesn't, it implies that her it's, of the Lowood , but in fact er it improved because they had an outbreak of erm typhus didn't they? +That's right. +Yes. +I mean +And it er, wasn't +th +so bad as she grew older. +That's right. +I, I don't think I would say +eight years of misery. +No. +No +No I +It became tolerable didn't it? +Mm. +Yes. +Yes. +Yeah. +And also, it implies at, at the end that erm, Jane and Rochester meet at Thornfield Hall, and they don't, they meet Ferndean. +His other property if you remember? +Yes. +When er, when he goes to live afterwards. +Yes. +I mean, I know it's hard it's hard doing erm +Yes! +And she wasn't going to marry, she never really considered marrying Rivers did she? +It said she was on the verge of marriage. +I heard she . +She was almost +Er +hypnotized +Yeah. +by him. +She was, yes. +Yeah. +You know +She was almost on the verge of just letting her will be subsumed into his wasn't she? +Yes. +Which would have meant marriage because he would have +But not to marry +insisted. +Well I think he would have +Yeah. +insisted. +Er, she didn't want to, no. +Erm +Who would? +He was such a pompous pig anyway! +He was terrible wasn't he? +Yeah. +Erm, I'm sure you know of this novel anyway, but just in case you don't, Jean Rhys er has written Wide Sargasso Sea. +Telling the story, as she imagined it of the mad wife. +Oh! +Yes. +Before she came, before she knew Rochester. +Yes. +And her marriage with Rochester. +Sorry! +What was that book? +Wide Sargasso Sea. +Wide Sargasso Sea. +Yes. +Jean Rhys. +R H Y S . +Mm mm. +Oh! +Yes. +And if you're interested in spin-offs, from stories, I can think it's +It's a very nice book. +It is, yes. +It gives a, it gives an idea of erm what Rochester did want. +Exactly. +It put Bertha's case. +Yes! +Doesn't it? +Mm. +Yeah. +It does. +And that one +too. +Right. +Erm +Do you mean the story in the book before when you were talking about +I don't think it's +that +Jean Rhys +Jean Rhys wrote +Yeah. +a separate novel +Oh! +telling taking a character out of Jane Eyre +The maddened wife? +the mad wife +Yeah. +and imagining what her life was like before she married him. +Erm the novel, the second preface the second edition of the novel was dedicated to William Thackeray who Charlotte admired tremendously. +Mm mm. +With a sort of tragic turn of fate, she did not know he had a mad wife. +Erm erm, and er, I don't know whether Thackeray presumably he realized she didn't know. +Well in the third one she does mention er, this explanation was served directly by mistake should been made. +Ah! +Right. +So, possibly she's faced that. +Yes. +Erm, the no the reception of the novel. +It was published in eighteen forty seven, in October, under the name Currer Bell. +The second edition was printed two months later, and the third, the following spring. +She achieved popular success at once. +And it was claimed as powerful, fresh, original, vigorous and truthful. +She was amir admired by English and French critics as well as the reading public. +Although, some critics termed the novel coarse meaning different things, some of them. +Some meant, outspoken frank, too frank the inappropriate placing of passion in a poor plain girl's mouth . +Now, if that wasn't what Charlotte Bronte was pleading for, I don't know what it was. +And, that the novel attacked both propriety and the upper classes quite needlessly +Erm, there are a few interesting quotations on the reception of the novel. +One or two people who are always worth hearing if you can bear with me. +Thackeray. +Writing to erm, W S Williams, a friend. +I wish you hadn't sent me Jane Eyre! +It interested me so much that I've lost, or won, if you like, the whole day of reading it at the busiest period with the printers I know, waiting for copy! +Who the author can be, I can't guess. +If a woman, she knows her language better than most ladies do, or has had a classical education. +It is a fine book, though. +The man and woman capital, a style very generous and upright, so to speak. +I thought it was kingly for some time. +The plot of the story is one with which I am familiar. +Some of the love passages made me cry to the astonishment of John who came in with the coals. +St John, the missionary is a failure I think but a good failure. +There are parts, excellent. +I don't know why I tell you this, but that I have been exceedingly moved and pleased by Jane Eyre. +It is a woman's writing, but whose? +Give my respect and thanks to the author, whose novel is the first English one and the French are only romances now, that I have been able to read for many a day . +Mm. +Erm the next one comes from The Spectator Magazine. +Essentially, Jane Eyre, an autobiography, has some resemblance to those sculptures of the middle ages in which considerable ability, both mechanical and mental, was often displayed upon subjects that had no existence in nature. +And as far as delicacy was concerned were not pleasing in themselves. +There is indeed none of their literal impossibilities or grotesqueness. +We do not meet the faces of foxes or writers under clerical hoods, neither is there anything of physical grossness. +But with clear conceptions distinctly presented a metaphysical consistency in the characters and their conduct, and considerable power in the execution, the whole is unnatural, and only critically interesting. +There is one fault too, in Jane Eyre, from which the artists of the middle ages were free, too much of artifice. +Their mastery of their art was too great to induce them to resort to trick to tell their story. +In the fiction edited by Currer Bell, there is rather too much of this. +Dialogues are carried on to tell the reader something he must know, or to infuse into him some explanations of a writer. +Persons act not as they would act probably in life, but enable to do the, to, but enable to author to do a bit of writing. +Everything is made to change just in the nick of time, and even the return letter office suspends its laws that Jane Eyre may carry on a tale with effect. +The fiction belongs to that school where minute anatomy of the mind predominates over incidents. +The last being made subordinate to description or the display of character. +A story which contains nothing beyond itself is a very narrow representation of human life. +Jane Eyre is this. +If we admit it to be true but its truth is not probable in the principal incidence, and still less in the manner in which the characters influence the incidents, so as to produce conduct. +There is a low tone of behaviour, rather of morality in the book. +And what is worse than all, neither the heroine nor hero attracts sympathy. +The reader cannot see anything lovable in Mr Rochester, nor why he should be so deeply in love with Jane Eyre. +So that we have intense emotion without cause. +The book, however, displays considerable skill in the plan on great power, but rather shown in the writing than the matter, and this vigour sustains a species of interest to the last. +Although minute, and somewhat sordid, the first act of a fiction is the most truthful, especially the scenes at the philanthropic school. +There are many parts of greater energy in Jane Eyre, than, none equal to the following and the quotation is the death of Helen Burns. +Oh yeah. +Oh! +What a jaundiced criticism! +Ooh! +Terrible! +That's The Spectator magazine. +That's the one that Jane Eyre, er not Jane Eyre, Jane Austen attacks in Northanger Abbey. +Yes. +Erm that's the one that, wanted respectability, acceptance amongst respectable citizens, very much and said that it would never print anything that would bring a blush to the cheek of a young +Oh! +girl. +So that's The Spectator for you. +But Rochester did er did er, when he was trying to rebuke himself for committing what was bigamy, and the works, he said, when he compared his own wife, who was really a mental animal because she very bestial the way she bit people, and then, he compared her with this sweet, dewy-eyed Jane, he did give a reason didn't he? +He did. +Actually I don't +You know. +think that's the best reason. +I don't think he could only +He was very attracted to her simplicity, and goodness. +She was very good. +She was, but +Mm. +it's like that argument, that, when you look for a marriage partner you're either looking for somebody to re if you're a woman, to replicate your father, or to be +Mm. +the total opposite of them. +That's right. +Either way, you are totally bound by what +Mm. +your father is. +Mm. +And it seems to me that in looking for in Rochester da Rochester's admission that he wants a woman who is opposite from Bertha +That's right. +he's still tied to his first wife. +He's got to come to learn to appreciate Jane for herself not because she isn't what Bertha is. +Oh well, yes. +And he was he wasn't cast er, sort of er, trying to convince her, not forcibly, that erm, you know, she should bend the rules and, and be his wife. +Oh yes! +You know, in other words +That's right. +forget all your principles and marry me because er she is an animal. +You know +Yes. +and you must accept the fact that she's an animal knowing that +But not +Yeah. +realizing that that would change what she loved. +Yes. +Absolutely! +I mean +Yeah. +a very different person. +Yeah. +Yes. +I mean +That's right. +Jane being Jane would never, never have done it. +No. +And it's only because you said, previously er, that she was a sort of feminist that when, he said do this do that and she said very frankly to him do you think just because I'm going to marry you I shall commit ? +Did you re did you see that? +Yes. +Now if you hadn't have said so Liz I wouldn't have realized that she was trying to, you know, er probe her individuality and er women had a a place. +I don't, I don't think a +Mm. +I don't think the word erm erm tt! +Feminism? +Feminism can be applied because if, +No. +she has kept the character and principle +tha that make that make her take those particular roles that she does. +There is one passage in which she erm pleads for women not to be kept in such narrow confines, social confines that their matters +Oh yes! +are not only making puddings and sewing blankets +That's right. +and that sort of thing. +And when he tries to take +When he tries to +When she wants to be an equal. +, she she +Yes. +just wants to go there as an equal +That's right. +and he refuses point blank to accept that! +Mm. +Yes. +You know, she's got +Mm. +to come as his wife. +He gets really you know, into a paddy almost! +I think I can +Yes. +almost see him sort of getting more and more annoyed just because she won't accept what he says. +Well because he's +Yes. +Yes. +Yes. +She's challenging his er +This is St John? +standards. +Yes. +Yes. +He's very authoritarian. +It does remark +He is indeed. +quite early in the book that there was a certain coldness about his Christianity. +Mm. +And he, she said, she wasn't quite sure that it was a warmth or a a real passion for +Mm. +human beings, it was just a almost clinical, I think it used the word there. +Yes. +St John's Christianity is +Yes. +absolutely +And a need for a power. +I mean, that's why he's presumably chosen what he wants to do, and th and the description at the end of the way he he led his life while he was overseas quite incredible ! +I mean, everybody a o clearly had to jump to his tune! +Mm. +Yes. +You think of these +I wouldn't say very much +better than the erm, what his name? +The early one who goes to erm Lowood, you know, and er +Brocklehurst. +Brocklehurst. +What's his name? +Oh! +Yes. +He was a tyrant! +Yes he was. +Yes. +They actually described erm, in term +he, when Jane first sees Brocklehurst she sees him +Mm. +she's a child of ten if you remember +Yes. +and she looked on it, he's like a black granite pillar. +Mm. +Yes. +With a sort of totem face +Mm. +stuck on top. +Yes. +She looks all the way up at him cos she's only +Ominous. +. +Erm, St John, towards the end of the novel is described as erm he, when he's asked Jane and she pleads for quarter of hour's time to think +Mhm. +about going to India with him as his wife he goes and lays down like a, a granite pillar +Yes. +she said, on the grass. +Yes. +And I think they're, they're linked by imagery, Brocklehurst and St John. +What I couldn't understand was that +I was fascinated +that when +Sorry! +when she said er erm, you know, he said you're not fit for love! +But then he, he insisted that she was gonna be his wife, which obviously, it was like a pent up frustration in him. +But she was +pretty he, he wanted a +Yes, but I, I got the impression he wanted her body! +And, and that's the only reason why he wanted her there, that's the only reason why he could not accept her as a friend or an, as a companion. +And as a +a man when she meets him. +Yes. +But, thought he was a nasty thing +We'll confuse +One at a time! +I think quite a lot of it, erm, books haven't mentioned this er frustrated erm feeling in the grant is that she's come out +Mm. +er er, erm that's true enough. +Yes. +And I think the girls definitely saw, much that they loved Patrick, they definitely, their Branwell I mean +Oh! +erm, they saw him being indulged in a way they were not. +Mm. +If they'd been brought up all, all girls maybe their fiction would have been different. +Erm, I was talking more about frustrated sexual erm er feelings that er, they weren't allowed to you know, let go and in their way of life. +No! +I don't think there was any way in which, to let go. +That, er +At all. +no. +Except in these fantasies in which they let +Yes. +all, they, they +Mm. +all sorts of feelings. +Mm mm. +And their, their erm Angria and Gondal, these erm +Mm. +countries, they invented. +Well some of them are then aren't they really. +I thought that St John +was madly in love with the other girl. +Yes he was. +The problem was +Yes. +Yes. +He was, yes. +I thought, if he had any passion it was directed to her, not I don't think he had it and Jane. +He, he +I think it was a +He got fifteen minutes in the of acting. +I think it was a power struggle. +I think Jane, nobody, he'd not had a woman stand up to him like that before +Mm! +and he wanted to own it. +Yes. +Mm. +That's the only way to quell it isn't it? +Is to own it. +The master. +Yeah. +The master. +In any case, it was all so impersonal. +Wi he, he needed a helpmate +Yes. +and, cos she, if she wasn't going to marry him cos he was far too vain he couldn't have her. +Mm. +And she was reasonably bright, she could take his ideas and, and be a reasonable companion to him, er er, in his, in his partner duty. +So she'd, she'd do. +She can come. +Mm. +She, she was co she coming! +You know. +But was she playing? +Yes. +No. +I don't think she was. +She, she'd been told by the Reeds that +Yes. +she was threatened +Mm mm. +Well +and so she always thought she was threatened. +Didn't er, Rochester +But Rochester didn't, er didn't think she was playing. +He thought, she had a, a gentleness and a grace. +Yes. +But +Mm. +there is a difference, a difference +though I expect it +that +Yes. +and prettiness. +Yes. +But +Mm. +what is prettiness? +Mm. +Yeah. +It's in the eye of the beholder. +Yeah. +Yeah. +I was gonna say that. +Would you like to hear George Eliot's brief comment? +Ooh yes! +In a letter to chap called Charles Bray. +I have read Jane Eyre, mon ami, and shall be glad to know what you admire in it? +All self sacrifice is good, but one could like it to be in a somewhat nobler cause than that of a diabolical law which chains a man body and soul to a putrefying carcass . +Of which I think she means Bertha. +Mm. +Mm. +However, the book is interesting. +Only, I wish the characters would talk a little less like the heros and heroines of police reports . +Oh that's quite +Before we go onto that, erm how far do you think Jane Eyre supported this idea? +I mean, she sort of flew the kite as it were with you know, if the wife was erm presumably the husband in other cases was mad beyond belief it was a good reason for casting her off. +How far do you think she went along with it? +I mean, she could have been er in love with Rochester but it looks to me like a beginning of an idea, you know, that er there are circumstances in which she er +In which divorce would be possible? +Yes. +Erm +Do you think she supported it? +Or do you think she just put it there for the argument? +I think she +To go with the character. +erm +I mean Bertha represents erm the dark side, if you like, of Rochester's life. +You have a contrast between Rochester and St John Rivers don't you? +As the two +Mm. +men who proposed to Jane. +And you have Rochester who has erm he's not exactly been a degenerate and he has shown some restraint, he has cared for this wife, he's brought her home. +And he's cared for this offspring. +Mm. +Which may or may not +Yes. +be his offspring. +And at the end he shows enormous courage +Mm mm. +when he tries to rescue her from the fire. +But Bertha, if you like, represents the erm the unfettered side of Rochester's lust passion, if you like. +Er, whereas St John is as tightly controlled as a as a strong elastic band isn't he? +Mm mm. +Everything is held in like this with St John. +Is he Rob's brother? +I don't know if he's his brother or not. +Yeah, he's the younger +But it's hi +of the two. +he's the landlo er I mean he's the licensee with Rob? +No. +Rob's +There's two of them ma no there's two of them +Yes. +Rob and somebody +With Charlie. +the other guy. +Charlie. +It's Cha Charlie is it? +How could Carnarvon not have any change? +Because they hadn't, I'd, they usually say ring after one so I rang at half past one and they'd emptied all the machines and everything. +Your drink's there. +A so we you, you and the Securicor you made that dance last night. +Why? +Because it's so fucking cold down there! +And then when, when it's cold down there I +Gotta make cups of tea coming down every half hour. +Is that enough? +Is that in your tee? +I can run home and get some. +No you can't cos Ken, Ken's not coming in till half ten. +Eh? +What's he on, part time? +Yeah, it was five o'clock this morning when we got out of here. +Was it? +Oh! +What for now? +Finally decided +He +now. +he brought the be the bloody ants back last night didn't they? +Oh it's erm +Yeah, but it was only about half three the week before. +Yeah, that was the little ant. +We had the big ants back with just all talk. +And there's seventy five +What do we, what do we like to stock. +We need Pils. +She never said that today. +There were what we got delivered yesterday was all we had, apart from a few bottles +Yeah I know that. +and it was a four barrels of Carlsberg. +No, no, no. +No, no, no, no! +I, cos I brought three crates of Pa Pils the day before. +Thur Thursday. +Were they in the cellar? +No they were oh no we brought them up and put on the shelf. +Oh well everything's up. +Is everything up out the cellar? +Oh, is that is that +Barry. +Hugh? +What have +Hughey. +you got in the cellar? +Hughey. +Have we got anything in the cellar? +Some, you told us that. +Well anyway, check. +Erm well +Well ah! +What? +Could you change that? +What is it? +It's a giro. +Well yeah, I can at some stage. +Well, er no but it's that little lad that hangs around at Chrissie's. +Chris is looking for you. +Yeah, he's just in there. +Oh. +What is it? +It's a Giro for seventy nine pound. +Well I can't at the moment can I? +No, obviously. +So +Yeah. +Well put another five cases of Pils. +Well do you want me to go in the cellar see what we've got? +Yeah, well well hang on a, hang on a sec +Well you might do, cos I'm not sure on there. +Hang on a sec Hughey, before you do that, do you think we'll be able to get any change from th from erm +What? +Yeah. +Do you want me to go and see? +Yeah. +I mean +I'll get some while I'm out , give me some money. +Well, it +Well, no +might be enough to cover it. +Terri told +Well what's that? +That's for the whisky. +Terri to +Oh that's Jean's office money. +Terri took some money but she couldn't get any change so +I couldn't get any. +just stick that in the till Terri, can you? +You gonna come down? +Yeah. +Yeah, I'll come, I'll come down with you. +Erm what are you, what have you got here? +I dunno. +Er, seventy five. +Eighty five +Well basically +altogether. +basically we need the pounds and +Everything. +fifties and +Everything. +Twenties, and tens +Everything. +and fives? +We've got plenty of copper. +Don't get any copper. +We were absolutely fucked! +We hadn't even we for fifty fucking P! +What did I say to you? +Forty P in copper. +That's all we could do. +Eh up! +I've got Jean's office key now. +Oh, and Jean's front door key. +I bet Jean's office, I bet Jean's office key is fucking Jean's +Are you ? +It's my . +I erm +Forty, sixty, seventy +It's the office and the front door that are Jean's then. +seventy five. +I'll get somebody out here as well if you hurry up and give me that. +Seventy five's not enough is it? +Well, that's what they gave me. +We'll get the we'll get some on the front door as soon people are . +Well I need thirty for the front door don't I? +Shit! +Of course, yeah. +Right well yo well you might as well bring it down I'll see if I can somebody +Yeah. +in, so +Alright. +And I'll get these sorted out. +Yeah. +Get, Terri, get security to give you erm a hand and get the shutters open, at least +Yeah. +when you're ready and Hughey? +Yeah. +So last night was reasonably busy was it? +Oh! +Fucking good night! +A great atmosphere as well. +Was it? +Yeah, Jean said there was about two hund two hundred sitting +I took about, I took about six hundred. +Have you? +Yeah. +Oh! +Good. +Jean said there was about two hundred in or something. +Well, Ken said three hundred people, but there's no way there was three +No. +hundred people. +But, they reckon it was about a hundred and ninety in. +Or did they +I mean he gave, he gave fifty baps away. +Yeah. +You know but were all the you know the short ones and everything and he had a blitz on them. +Where are we at? +Eh? +Where are we going?. +Alright. +It's gonna be it's gonna be er eleven o sort of eleven o'clockish before I'm gonna have to go. +Okay then.. +Yeah. +Do you wanna just see if there's anything in there and +Yeah. +Have you got any +Ah yeah. +I don't think there is. +No, I, I don't think there is, but +five cases of Pils. +No, there can't be anything there because Terri said she'd brought it all upstairs as soon as the brewery bought it in. +Yeah, but you're, you're +Yeah. +a bit keen aren't you? +The cra we'll bring everything up. +I I brought a barrel of lager for er from downstairs and then it's all that we had. +.Yeah. +Terri could always go back and get started with this. +Yeah. +Cos I could we could do with getting a a case, erm do you think we need a case of cans of Pils? +How many have we got? +She said about four or five cases. +I dunno. +Put it up there. +Probably will actually. +I mean, we only go to eight normally on a, a Friday and Saturday. +Yeah we sold a lot last night. +Have we, have we got ma have we got any Red Stripe? +Not a lot. +Yeah, but I mean we've got some Red Stripe +Yeah. +have we? +A couple of cases or something? +I dunno I've not checked like. +Terry said she was doing the stock so I left it to her. +Where are we going? +Well the upstairs, downstairs . +Hopefully it'll still be open. +Open till ten o'clock? +Mm. +Ten to ten. +I don't think there's any point. +So we need, pound coins, fifties +You'll need forty pounds won't you? +Need forty of pounds +Well that's a, that's +We need twenty of +Fifties. +fifties +No. +Yeah we do. +Ten for the front door and ten for the till. +That's sixty. +And fifteen quid of erm +Tens. +tens. +Oh. +And you've got, you've got copper we can use for for five Ps haven't we? +Yeah. +I'll see if we can get any more I've got, I, I've got er got another twenty quid. +Is it open? +See if I can get a +Okay. +from here. +There's seventy five there. +And you want forty worth of pound coins +Yeah. +twenty and fifties. +Aha. +And tens? +Yeah. +And twenties? +I'll get twenties and ten pence if you want? +Well yeah, don't really matter does it? +No, they're fucking stuck! +Thirty quid, that's it. +Fuck! +I, I might get forty pounds at the Empire Ballroom. +Mm. +He's difficult. +Well he +He give me fucking +I'll tell you +he give me some a couple of months ago when we . +Well I'm er he wants me to +He just needs showing . +He wants me I mean he wants to do me a favour, Paul, so he might gi he might, you know I mean he say for us, I mean for us he would +Yeah, well Peter's alright, he'll cash you . +I hope . +So I got thirty, thirty in tens so +Mm. +Ah Jesus! +Well, oh, oh seventy five you give me did you? +Yeah. +Oh right. +I should have give him a fiver . +The only other one is +Anne? +No. +She's at she won't. +Er what do you call him across at the er +Oh! +Right. +. Absolutely. +Yeah. +What do we want? +We just +Well we've +we wa +got forty five now, we want pound coins and erm +I thought we're going there? +I don't really know what he's given me here. +If it's a lot of tens. +I'll get instead of fifties and fucking we just give them the five pound +Yeah. +. +And +Yeah, I'll soon get some fifties back. +I mean, it just needs some early on that's all. +Yeah. +And twenties. +And a bag of twenties don't you? +Yeah, thirty quid. +These are twenty and fifties and tens. +Where's best way? +Just down straight there? +Yeah. +Yeah. +I'll turn it round while you you nip in. +What time is it? +Ten. +Ten? +Yeah. +That's alright. +I'll be on . +What d'ya say, half ten did he say? +Ken? +Yeah. +Yeah. +There's only thirteen cans of Red Stripe left. +Four and a half cases full. +So that's twenty five cases? +Yeah.. +Okay. +Where is he do you know? +Ken? +Dunno. +He's at er, Terri said he's not coming in so +Well, he's at some de there's some firms do or something on apparently +Right. +that he's got should +Got +should make an appearance at or something. +Oh well. +I mean, nothing happens till +Well just say, like last night we didn't open till half ten really, you don't get anybody in at before then. +No. +I mean it's just when er, he's basically +It's like +going for the bus innit? +That +Yeah. +But you get like them thing or owt. +Yeah. +Cos it were sat there with er couple of,couple of cans of lager . +Well when I, I saw him come in door at this end and I thought oh well, I'll follow them see if they've gone back and they were sat, well it must have been behind the back +Yeah. +and I looked oh +Yeah. +did say +Oh +like, you know. +Oh yeah. +Well one of them went to erm one of them went to the er toilet or something and left a an open full can there and Hughey, so Hughey just picked it up +oh thank you! +He said, eh you, you can't do that! +Course you can. +What d'ya think you're doing here? +So I helped. +Bloody good night last night. +Yeah. +Erm +We +No I think it was, I think it was just over two hundred on, but I don't think it was +Terri reckons about three fifty. +Nah! +But erm +I think she's getting carried away a bit there. +Probably. +She was. +She, probably try and impress on us how hard she worked. +Yeah. +That won't be very hard. +No. +Oh dear! +Eh? +Well my daughter's like really and into rave so I . +But now with that well I've done my head in! +True. +I was gonna say, I didn't think it was your type of music. +No. +This isn't really. +Innit? +But I can stand this better than that one +Yeah. +Why what is your type +Motown +of music? +Status Quo, Genesis Fleetwood Mac and a bit of Motown on there. +Some as well actually. +Mm. +You get used to it. +Mm. +Better than Thursday night when Mick 's doing it, when he's doing the er sort of thrash metal for +Mm. +an hour and half solid! +Yeah. +A bit heavy going. +I sound like, I sound like my mum and dad though when I'm criticizing it, you know. +All sounds the same, it's just a noise and you know, you can't th the words ! +Well you +You sound like your mum and dad criticizing the music, you know. +Sixties and seventies. +Ninety perce ninety percent of records in charts today there's no words anyway are they? +Mm. +It's all music. +No that's right. +So, anyway, it's not even that is it? +It's all computerized today +Yeah. +so er +Mm. +electrical effects and +Do that, bloody wanna tape on. +Well you are we can get Dawn's brother if you want. +Well if I knew who the hell Dawn's brother was! +Well I'll take him to see +And he wears +I mean he's a big skinny with glasses and whatever. +You got some change have you? +But nobody else. +Yeah. +I did. +My hero! +Shut up! +and rock and roll. +Your hero? +Hughey ! +Yeah. +How are we off for Newquay? +We've got loads. +We haven't sold any of those for a long time. +Ah! +We may need some bottles here packing up. +Right. +Okay. +Well what time are you coming next, next week? +I'll do eight. +Says he's gonna open tomorrow night. +Yeah. +There's a set of gamblers on a Friday night so we er fucking try to use some more it wasn't +Mm. +open at four. +Ooh ! +Jean's in next week, yeah? +Big city job. +Oh yeah, yeah. +Bet you fucking lay down the law alright. +See she sounds like a wimp though. +My anguish, my life's shattered sort of thing! +God! +The last thing I'd do when I get Mr . +Especially when . +Yeah . +Yeah. +It's a, is it in, and he's just saying that the develop redevelopment starts in autumn? +Yeah. +I mean I +Summat in autumn. +I think it's, I think that's erm well it's not exactly a bluff, but it's, it's a case of er what they hope will happ hope will happen. +Er I don't think are pulling out but they, they've suspended things, but I mean they just don't know if they're competing. +They just the politics . +Yeah. +I mean, they can't possibly erm you know, cos they +Mm. +can't, you can't accuse just Jean of corruption, they've got to they've got to accuse the development corporation of corruption as well. +You know, cos you can't be corrupt just on one person, you've gotta have two people playing +Oh aye. +but, you know. +So th to a, you know, and as said, you know we erm we don't need to bribe anybody to come into Morecambe. +Right. +You know nobody else would come in! +No, that's it. +You know, that's just my point, you know . +Nobody wants to come here and spend money do they? +No. +Oh well! +It just, I think it, I think it affected us last week so erm cos the, the Friday night was well down. +Mm. +It was only, only about ninety people two hundred people Friday. +I think it was overspeculated in the press that we've sold the premises and it, it well gave the impression that perhaps we might be open you know, some people might not think we're open even. +Well that's what, what I said on Saturday +Yeah. +they didn't think they'd be open, you know. +Yeah. +When they come for tea, you know +Mm. +on Friday, thought they were closed. +Yeah. +Mm. +And if you're coming through from Lancaster, you know, as soon a it's a far old drag innit? +After the pubs are closed, on the off-chance, I mean, cos if you get here what the hell do you do if not as if you've got an alternative is there? +No. +You know. +If yo if you're gonna come here yo you're the ki not on a Saturday night, you're not the kind of clientele that's gonna go to the Empire +Oh no. +Prince's Tea Rooms and so you gotta traipse all the way back into Lancaster to go +Mm. +to The Alley. +Yeah. +What like, putting a bus on which shows you that you was open like, you know +Mm. +put a bus on on a Wednesday night. +Yeah, that's right. +So How do! +Oh! +Hello Mark. +Hi. +It must be cold, it's bloody coming off you. +Bloody freezing out there! +Oh well! +Are you su are you sure the heating's on? +Terri turned it on. +I know. +I just wonder sometimes when Terri turns things on. +It is very cold! +Last last time she put the ventilation on instead. +Can you just hang about here I'll just go and check. +Okay. +Bet it's blasting cold air out for an hour! +Anyway, sod though Mark! +What about it? +Well you're a wor you're a blooming big girl! +You can't stand the cold. +Cor! +It's the, blasting the heat out in there Mark. +I don't know +Is it though? +Yes. +Oh it's +It's phew! +What a scorcher! +There's people up there in their underpants! +Well I wanna see the people that +It's nothing to do with the climate. +Am I right in in thinking that we're having some new speakers? +Yes. +Why? +Well, what we're doing is putting the erm ha! +We're putting the the tannoy system back in. +Right. +Into operation. +and everything's back out again +Yeah. +and it's +Right. +Well you know the oogamyflip's du in there. +Four speakers around the dance floor and er two big bass things. +Mm. +Mick's gonna, getting those together and +Yeah I know. +Cos they, they kept blowing before though didn't they, those? +If I remember rightly. +Well yeah. +Did they? +Yeah, but it was only really, we had that we had those soul D Js that, that, that were blowing them that was the problem. +Yeah. +And they shouldn't have blown. +Now there's some mild mannered rock D J to +to look after the speakers. +True. +I hear you were at the Empire the other night? +I was indeed, yes. +Just sniffing about, you know see what's going on. +How many were in? +Four hundred or so. +That bad is it? +Wednesday night! +Cos I thought, I was quite impressed. +And I thought +Yeah. +flipping hell! +They're doing summat right. +He's bashing down from the campus. +How much is it to get in? +A quid. +Cheap drinks. +Yeah well I mean a quid a pint or something isn't it? +Yeah. +A pound a pint for lager, and one twenty for Pils. +That's +I mean, so there's he's still making a reasonable mark- up on that. +Mm. +I mean well, not a reasonable mar he's still making money on the drinks +Mm. +it's not as if you're like selling them at cost and making a few pence because +Mm mm. +No. +I must say I was quite surpri I've never set foot in the place before since that time we went down before it was open. +Yeah. +Really? +Mhm. +Mm. +Yeah, I've got my band playing down there in a couple of weeks. +You know, Line Birds. +Cos, they'll be down there. +Oh! +Your la your lads? +Yeah. +At the er and they have a band on that night that I just called on for the +Is that the one that they had some problems with the er rugby club? +Yeah. +And they were standing in the front as I'm going +Like this. +And they we I don't think they were very amused. +The band or the rugby club? +Yeah, er well both +by all account ! +Well I dunno, I don't know what it is. +Very unusual. +They start wanker bit, you know, it's like all they tend +to do. +Mm. +They're only small lads, you know, sort of playing guitars and stuff. +I don't think they were gonna play anything. +Because there's only a couple, they only had a couple of security guards didn't they? +Ooh! +I know. +Outside. +Well +Yeah. +Nigel was saying that they only had a couple, you know, cos they like you +Well it's hard to tell, the manager's a bouncer isn't he? +Er he looked +Oh yeah. +Paul? +He used to be +Mm. +he used to, he used to do bouncer there, yeah. +Yeah I swore I'd seen him before. +Yeah. +I couldn't work out where I'd seen him. +He was here from the very first cos he worked for Hills, you know that sort of +Mm. +gangster crew from Blackpool! +Mhm. +Erm, he worked, he was their sort of erm they had a few clubs and pubs in this area at the time and er +Mm. +he was that sort of head of the +Yeah, I know what yo yeah, I'm sure I'd seen him before. +And troubleshot around various establishments. +Then he went so solo, he he got erm er doing regular thing up at erm Ocean Heads I think, or summat. +Oh! +But definitely so he sort of went on his own and then went back into building and decorating and then when the Empire opened he started there from the off. +But now he sort of seems to be with other contracts. +Mm. +Cos the last I see he's been made redundant now hasn't he? +Oh! +You don't know it, you won't know it then. +No. +Then Mar this guy called Mark is there I think. +But Paul's head over that now so I mean he's doing well for himself. +Mm. +Yeah, well I was erm I was trying to get get a night down there deejaying as well. +I wa I was told you had got one. +Mm? +I was told you'd got one or two? +Yeah. +In fact, I was told you'd got two nights! +Have I? +Oh! +That's nice to know isn't it ? +Well it was from the er you know Radio Lancashire Nigel misfit! +Oh I see ! +Well, fair enough. +No, I mean I went in, I was talking to this, this bloke +Walking round bit of Pathay News! +so I thought Yeah. +Entertainment's Manager +Yeah. +sort of DJs every night +Yeah. +and +Yeah. +he was sort of been doing this job for a week. +He's booked a load of bands ain't he? +Mm. +What d'ya think they but I mean, well, I mean I'm a little bit out of touch on that sort of +Well he's +level, I mean +been doing Two Unlimited, Rosearre and all +Yeah. +this sort of you know, these sort of sort of wa what are P P A jobs really. +Yes. +Yeah. +Sing a couple of songs and er +Yeah. +over a backing tape and and that's it. +I don't know cos I've never actually erm been in a place where they've done sort of thing really. +Yeah. +Two Unlimited's the first one I think. +Well they've er, done a couple of couple of +I mean if that does, er er, I mean Two Unlimited ought to do alright. +If +Mm. +if it, if it's gonna do alright then that'll be +Mm. +reasonable. +But it's getting a bit carried away, I mean, he was talking to Nigel about er doing er the Levellers in er +Mm. +in the tent, you know. +Doubt if you put, oh, we can put four and half thousand people into that! +Well,. +Well, yeah. +Yeah, he was also he said most of them, he said er +Seven hundred in the Sugar House maybe. +well they're playing Guild Hall aren't they? +Yeah, but yeah. +Difference between playing Guild Hall and filling Guild Hall. +Mm. +True. +I dunno they're, they're damn popular if only, I mean +Yeah. +I know +It was one of the best +but I would, I wouldn't have sa +selling albums of last year. +Yeah. +Yeah. +I wouldn't, I, I mean, yeah, but I mean I wouldn't have thought I mean they're certainly +No it wouldn't do four thousand +No. +I mean +I mean I wouldn't +you +No. +know. +I would have thought that for Morecambe they're probably looking at like a thousand eleven hundred people if, you know +Yeah. +would be a good one. +I would have thought. +Yeah. +Well I'm sort of like. +Depends on timing +Foot in the door a bit see, see if I can sort of, you know +You alright? +Hello Kenneth? +Alright. +I'm just starting to . +You know, what he's doing really so +Yeah. +sort of well a couple of nights deejaying will do me for a start really. +Who's doing a Wednesday night then? +Well, he's doing it, last wee I wouldn't mind doing the Wednesday actually cos I can do that sort of you know, student discos, you know, so +Yep. +and I don't have to go to work on Thursday, so you know th that always helps. +Right. +So likewise the Saturday nights here, I'm alright I don't have to get up in the morning. +Mm. +Ha. +Yeah. +What is it on Wednesday, is it ten till, ten till two, or nine till two or +Erm +what do they do a bus shuttle? +Er, I think they have, I think they'd have, I think they have two buses on er er a week so and then they go back if there's any more. +It's a long haul that innit though? +Mm. +Here. +I mean, how many students are from Morecambe nowadays? +Er, d'ya know? +I've no idea. +Must be a fair number. +I've no idea to be honest. +There's not as many as there used to be. +No. +No, no, no. +I mean we when I when I came here it was virtually, virtually half, half the population of that. +And then there was maybe a thousand people out of out of Morecambe. +Mm. +That's it. +And the Uni was then only about two thousand eight hundred strong. +Mm. +But there's quite a lot of erm development in Lancaster now. +They're doing loads of erm, flats and there's all those, all that stuff round Highcross area. +Yeah. +But . +Is it? +I think so, but well that's part of St. Martin's College really, isn't it that er +Some of it is. +I thought some of it was the Uni. +But, you know, I mean, if the Uni goes to ten thousand in what what is it, it's getting up for about ninety five, ninety six? +It's quite quick. +Something like that. +It's +Yeah. +very quick really. +Yeah, I mean that, well it's only fo well it's four, five thousand now? +But I mean you're talking +Six. +It's five. +Well, whatever. +Six. +You're talking about +Mm. +doubling in size basically aren't you in, in in the next three years? +Mm. +That's going some! +Well then I'll have to get an extension. +It's like sardines now in there. +Yeah. +I know, it's unpleasant innit? +It's always been popular along with students ain't it? +Aye. +Like the only pub that is. +Well Barry's doing alright now. +Is he? +He's sort of got students in there new landlord and all that so I think. +It's always packed out with students these days. +Must have got some student then? +That's right. +It's er +Mind you, it's convenient for the Sugar House innit? +Yeah. +I mean I always thought, I always thought The Tramway The Yorkshire, and were always gonna do quite well out the Sugar House +Mm. +but in actual fact it, it was only really The Yorkshire House did anything direct +Yeah. +out of it. +Whereas the was that +And, cos Carole went in +grotty little pub though weren't +Yeah. +it? +Really, I mean +Yeah. +Yeah, but it should have done alright. +Yeah. +What's that er +And they, sort of a young sort of landlord, you know, and he sort of was into his real ales and he got guest beers in and all this sort of thing which got a better . +What you talking about, The Firing Arm? +Mm. +Yeah. +There's that free house, that's quite a one innit? +Just along the er +Oh that place, yeah. +The Lord Nelson or whatever it's called. +Lord Ashton. +Lord Ashton, that's it. +What used to be The Safe. +It used to be The Safe didn't it? +And they've got a bloody outside toilet haven't they? +I well it's not +i it's have you been in since they did it up? +Once, yeah. +And it's er bi bigger now than when it was befo I mean, before it was all I remember when they stuck a pool table in there and it was bloody dreadful! +Mm. +Went down to play pool once and I ha two pool teams in there and you couldn't move in the place. +Oh ye yeah, I remember actually, I played there once. +Yeah. +Before it was done up. +Yeah. +Mm. +Well we used to, I mean, I don't think did they? +That might be an idea, a DJ . +Not in there. +There bloody is! +There is! +There's two punters. +They'll sit in the corridor! +Well that's cos the records are crap! +Shit! +Down Quinnen Street. +North of +Oh yeah! +And we got +last year. +And he's a funny old guy! +And I wasn't even talking when, I didn't know him from we were talking to him one night. +I mean he doesn't have, sort of, consistent opening or anything he opens when he fancies doesn't he? +Half se half seven +Or he don't open at all. +eight o'clock at night and yeah, that's right. +One day they're open and +I went there one Sunday, I thought we'll have a meal but when I looked I said no chance! +Mm. +Here's Ken. +Bloody hell! +He's in at last. +Good evening people! +How we doing? +Hi. +Evening. +Evening. +Is it on? +Ted said it weren't on. +Yeah it was. +Oh I'm glad you said that. +No! +You alright Barry? +Actually . +Sort of +Ken! +weren't yeah? +Are you coming back down? +Yeah. +Can you bring me a pint of lime and lemon with some i lots of ice? +Yeah, course I can. +Cheers, thanks. +Aye, we were gonna go in for a Sunday dinner once and it was all shut, can't have my dinner. +What, in the Lord Ashton? +Yeah. +Does he ah he does meals don't he? +Does meals. +What are they like? +Have you e +I've never been in I were +No. +just gonna try it. +Summat different. +Oh. +He's got a sports club coming off soon. +Mm. +I think I might be going in for it. +Yeah. +A couple of them. +Yeah. +All them traffic wardens. +Ha! +He did have er when he opened, of course, he was one of the few houses to have in Lancaster to have Boddy didn't they? +They had Boddys on the bar. +Still got Boddingtons +Yeah, I know, but like everybody's got Boddys now ain't they? +And Whitbread's taken them over bunging them in everywhere aren't they? +I mean it only, it only used to be like the The Plough and and The Bath and er New Inn and +Yeah. +innit really and now every pub, as I say every pub's got it on tap. +I mean, it's not as nice a pint as now that Whitbread's have taken over and half the time. +They reckon Lancastrians have got a good pint of Boddys. +The one on Lancaster Road? +No, the er the one back at . +Babkins now ain't it? +Babkins yeah. +Oh right. +Well they've got a good pint of Ruddles. +Aha. +Someone from work was saying they went in . +God! +I haven't been in there for years! +And th when it was the Lancastrian you know. +Yeah. +Used to have a disco upstairs. +One of the first pubs in Lancaster +That's right. +to have a disco up a regular part of the pub. +Well Lancers? +Yeah. +Or the Lancastrian as it +Yeah. +was then +Yeah. +What I was gonna ask you actually erm or maybe I should ask Jean, I don't know erm +Who? +March +Oh yes. +erm +No, ask me she won't be around then. +Right. +What? +Saturday night +Yep. +A wedding private until eleven o'clock +Yeah. +they don't want a, they don't want a buffet or anything or just like that, just sort of +Yeah, fine. +get them down, and whatever, nine o'clock or whatever +Yeah. +they want a time to start. +Yeah. +And they're all the same sort of punters anyway, sort +Mm. +of +Well I mean, are you planning on talking to them beforehand? +Mm. +Well +Yeah. +it's not too bad, it doesn't matter what you play. +Mm. +Yeah, I mean I was gonna say there's +Yeah, I mean, as long as it, as long as it kind of they know that it might change slightly after eleven. +Yeah. +Well that's it. +I mean, it's no it's not old, it's not the sort of folk and everything, it's just all +Yeah. +Yeah. +sort of mates and stuff like +Yeah. +that. +Fine. +You wanna do it from what, half eight el half eight they wanted till eleven or +Right. +No problem! +How many are you talking about? +Er, I don't know yet. +Erm couple of hundred maybe. +Probably less. +How much is it? +Yeah I was gonna say, I've heard these before ! +Well I know but I meant +Private bookings. +the trouble is, I mean they're looking for somewhere to have it. +I've given out three hundred invites and sit around with +Well that's reminded me the erm +twenty people. +the erm Lancy's is one of the places they were thinking of, upstairs. +Aha. +Alright. +But the chances are nobody'll wanna go till after the pubs anyway with these dos so, cos it's not actually and, they're having a sort of reception after the wedding +Right. +for erm everyone in the family and wanting a a night do you know for +Mm. +for all their mates and such like. +When's the when is the wedding, or when's the reception? +And where? +Well it's all on the same day. +I reali I realized it was on the same day Mark. +No but it, oh right. +Er, erm, Saturday the +No, a time what time are they planning +Oh I don't know yet. +Is there a gap, I mean how big is the gap between like the reception and the party kind of thing? +Er, I haven't got a clue. +I mean, are they likely to run into one another? +Are people likely to stay in one and +Oh no, no, I don't think so. +No. +I think the morning wedding, then a af sort of mi midday +Mm. +reception. +In Torrizone or is it Garstone? +Yeah. +Married in Torrizone +Yeah. +reception in er Gallgate. +I've got oh the Gallgate. +What? +Right there in Morecambe. +And be +So with, with a bunch of flowers. +I don't know. +Anyway, and I mean, just a, I mean it might not happen it was just like +Yeah. +I said, well that'll probably be alright if they wanna do it. +Cos they wanted me to do the disco you see. +Yeah. +And I said well I'm working that night. +They said, well how about you know +Yeah. +Who is it? +Are they people I know and not rough. +Erm +How d'ya know them? +I mean what's, who is it? +Er, you, they come, they've been in here before with +Yeah. +the sort of lads. +I don't know them very well. +With glasses . +They've been in here and they still want you to do the disco! +Hey! +I'm Mark. +Well that's right. +Top man me! +Top man! +Eh! +I tell you +Top man! +what last Saturday +Mm. +I had Alistaire singing your praises! +Alistaire who? +Alistaire, as in loony, psychopath Alistaire! +Oh right. +Why's that then ? +Well, he was talk we were talking about the rave and th what was wrong with it and he was saying basically it was they'd got four DJs who were all techno and they were like brilliant! +He said, you know that you won't get better +techno D's outside London and then, even then they could pushing it, I mean, they're all their own mixes do all their own mixes and +Mm. +you know, they're, and the scratching guy he said is best he's ever heard anywhere. +He said, but it's the same all night long, you know . +And I said, well I know nothing about that kind of music but that's the impression I got, I was just stood there at the bar thinking that last, last Friday it's not the same one , thinking, you know, this is just this is just very samey it +Mm. +sounds really samey. +So erm oh, cheers mate! +So he said yeah, he said it's like, you know it's like if played erm +That +you know, thrash all night long on a Saturday night you're gonna have fifty, sixty people who think it's wonderful but you're never gonna get more than fifty, sixty people. +Erm so he ju he was taking it over for a couple of weeks. +Anyway +Alright? +Hello there. +You know +cutting a long story short. +Saying how good you were. +He said to say, cos he, we were talking about DJs in general and how basically if performing artist if anything else, you know, you've still gotta react to your audience and all that sort of thing. +Yeah. +and he's er yes er +What the hell does he know anyway? +He was saying you taught, he, he taught him everything he knows! +Ho! +This didn't say Alistaire that I know and love. +He was saying how he used to stand awestruck in the Sugar House and listen to you all night long! +And learnt all the tricks of the trade. +I thought he always there +I thought Mark in the Sugar House he was drunk +most of the time. +You know +Yeah , that's why he was so good. +No, I said to Dean he was. +Will I give him a job there? +And anyway you ought to try, you ought to have tried telling him a few ! +Mm. +Yeah, well he does get a bit of over the top +No, No. +I mean this was like this was like +I mean, he's not even +midday on a Saturday. +Yeah. +Yeah. +No adrenalin buzzing, no. +Well he doesn't drink any more but +No. +He's given up smoking as well hasn't he? +Aye. +He was actually reasonably reasonably pleasant. +Except when he went off into fi fantasy land. +Battling up and down motorways in cars ! +Sorting out drug dealers the length and breadth of the British Isles! +Oh yeah. +Regular Robin Hood. +Stop and search him. +Yeah. +Rob Roy. +Yeah, well at least it's only +Rob Roy ! +he owes me anyway. +That he's owed me for a year! +Just about. +What was that from? +Nothing. +Yeah. +Well he's got himself a B M W and he can't pay pay his record bill. +Ooh! +Sounds like Trevor to me. +Is Trevor still buying? +What happened with Brooks? +Dunno. +But I sa but I knew Mick was doing +or something +I know that. +It's what? +He's so open. +Oh yeah! +Ye yeah. +Er er I know, I know. +I just wonder what's I last I heard they were the receiver was trying to pull it into the collapse but er +Oh! +Don't know. +I thought they did quite well. +I thought it was go make a club . +Well it's the only club in, in Lancaster that's that's the problem. +Yeah, he always seems to fiddle . +Well I mean the Sugar House is +Mm. +is +Mm. +a student place and always will +Yeah. +be and +It is crap! +What Brook? +Brook. +Cos those +Oh I know. +erm +as town night clubs go +Yeah but it's a club +I mean it's +and there's no alternative is there? +Hi Ken! +I dunno what's . +And there's what have I got? +Urgh brurgh +brurgh, hundred and mm mm mm mm mm eighty hundred and eighty pound, must be two hundred in +Ha! +Yeah. +Pretty good. +Yeah. +Must be twenty come in without and paying, and I've let a few in for +Mm. +Mm. +bit less than two fifty. +Oh! +Jolly good! +So it's not bad. +Mm. +Don't know how the bar's coping though. +Oh! +They're alright . +Are they? +I think it bi but they're doing alright. +They'll manage. +That's what they're there for innit? +Yeah. +Got no er no change at the moment that's the only problem. +Yeah, always seem to be going for some er +I just send er +What's it? +Alan. +Alan. +Alan. +Got some at home apparently tucked away in a piggy bank or something. +He's robbed it off somebody! +How many +Ain't he ? +were on the bus then? +It was absolutely jam-packed full by the sta the standing, I didn't count them. +No, well +Will it be ab be about ninetyish I would think. +Mm. +Ninety, ninety two summat like that. +Yeah, we had like fifty in before, fifty, or sixty. +Before the bus come? +Mm mm. +Came? +Yeah, it's picking up again nicely. +Mm. +Well it's a bad time of year ain't it since Christmas? +I mean January +Yes, yeah that's a point. +anyway, I mean, and then all the sort of ups and downs with the press publicity etcetera. +Mm. +Course, yeah. +Yeah. +One or two have mentioned on Thursday actually so I think best we're open well before. +See how that goes when they feel it. +Well I was just talking to Jean about that today, I mean I we've gotta keep on doing it but, I think that +Yeah, if you stop now you'll get nowhere with them will you? +No that's right. +But I mean I think we, I think I, I will need on Monday morning to talk to er Morecambe Bay and see if I can bring forward these promotions because +Yeah. +until I start +Yeah. +I mean, we should get them back. +You can't,al also I think you should start doing, having people regular again wi it's just +I know. +not worth it. +The trouble is it's a bit of a catch twenty two because if you don't put a bus on, will you get the people? +Mm. +It's what you do innit? +That's the problem with it. +the bus for er +I mean nobody actually +and nobody on it. +nobody's actually said to me a well where, where's the bus on a Thursday? +Nobody's said it yet. +When they +Mm mm. +start asking +Mm. +then that transport you could ask about putting it back on again. +I mean what a what I think I'll probably do is if we can get like erm something that's obviously our crowd and then either putting, say, Stella back on or something like that +Mm. +and banging it out for one +Can you not stick a band on pretty soon or nothing like that? +Well +People would think we were +frankly I'm not sure where that stands . +I mean talking to Charlie, just asking about getting some student bands on +Yeah. +might be an idea cos remember when we had that thin Mar +when we had that thin Martin's band on. +Yeah, but I was in +I mean +gonna say, stick them back on cos they +Yeah. +went down really well. +And they brought a big following down didn't they? +They brought a big following. +Yeah, that's right. +Er, I mean if you, if they, if they +There was about a hundred with thin Martin on the other hand. +Yes. +Yes. +It was a really good night that. +If you make it known that there's stuff like that going on, if you get a band like that you can always just +Mm. +put a bus on for some people that come down. +Mm. +You get a couple of leads like that it'll start picking up +Yeah. +up there. +That's right. +So +Like ya, like you say it is a difficult situation at the moment innit? +Mm. +And what to do for the best. +Mm. +Yeah. +But I, I say if I get sh publicity I er if I say do, if I say cos we haven't got a premium lager on draft so if I stick Stella on draught +Mm. +and then do it as an offer. +You +Eleven best we can do in +Okay. +and fives. +Great! +So you gotta take it up +Yeah. +Great! +there. +Get it up to Terri. +I'll get you a bottle full then this . +Yeah. +Is it like cold out? +Drizzly rain though as well. +Is it? +Is it? +Mm. +Mm. +Oh! +Well, mind you, that +That's better than frost. +Yeah. +Must be war +Oh yes. +must be warmer then mustn't it? +Any good? +Hello. +Alright? +Alright? +Aha. +You alright? +Yep. +How's ? +Oh! +And we tried fourteen brewery! +And op +You don't you don't +an opp +get it. +an opportunity. +How much is yours? +Seven quid each. +Seven, seven +The wha the what +Seven +No. +quid each? +Another drink? +Maybe . +Couple of quid each. +Couple of quid each? +What are you +Fucking hell! +No he said +Oh er, each? +couple of quid each. +You bringing that back down here then. +Oh no. +It's two for a quid normally. +Fucking hell! +He's trying to kill me this fucker! +I know. +Ah! +Well I thought +What's up with him? +Him! +We're stood there and all! +Well you, no you were up there. +Where I stood like +Well, +There you go. +You, you +Well no it's +serve cups of tea upstairs or what? +Afraid not. +Only in +That's all you need at his age innit? +I says no, it's not bloody soup kitchen! +Yeah. +But I had, I had a go I had a good cup of tea before. +Is that alright? +It's one +I don't know. +One, one +One more. +It don't matter, he's got hundreds of them downstairs! +I know. +There's hundreds of them downstairs! +But I wanna get home yet. +I've gotta get home yet. +Fucking hell! +Come on! +You'll only spend it at the bar otherwise. +I wa I want a cup of tea I'm fucking Right, no, I know it's there, I know it's there's because he's got in +Bloody hell! +Take your +Oh! +What! +I thought it was a joke +What time do you reach from out of here then? +Two o'clock. +And what time's the soup kitchens open? +Don't , honestly I'm not fucking joking aren't I? +Well I'm not. +Wah! +That's disgusting ! +I went with you lot. +Yeah. +Leave him, leave him up there. +Oh yeah, you'll tell any fucker that! +Oh no! +Full, it's full. +If there's over three thousand +No, there's not that many. +Alright then. +If there's over two thousand and I'm gonna come back and get my fucking money back! +Right. +The trouble is that it I know, I say I'm going on about haven't got a copper and everything, then they walk up to the bar and pull out a great wad of notes +Yeah. +out of it, out of it, out of the pocket ! +I know. +When do you start when do you start fishing again then? +D'ya think? +In a couple of weeks I think. +It's alright if you're +Mm. +I'm playing again up till no all normal now. +Like that was saying if you wanted to, about three months cos I mean kept putting +Mm. +him off, putting him off. +But I'm getting a, I'd, I'd, I'm up to normal now, I've got everything back on a normal par I think. +So +Mm. +Mm. +I start before you start, I'm going fishing now. +What, you go out in the i is it in the summer when you go out the boat? +Or the erm spring or summat? +Well, summer, I don't know I'd like to go for about it,whe whether it's calm or not, you know if it's nice and calm but +Mhm. +well that's a a place like Morecambe I just couldn't be bothered. +Yeah. +So I go at any time late at night. +I say over Christmas though my car was in its garage in bits. +So that didn't go down too well with our lot but it's either that or it blow up all the time. +Yeah. +Do you go out far? +Or do you just you fe in a +in a boat or do you go out far? +Depends, last time we went out, we went just off Longbay Island other side of Wallasey. +Yeah I know. +Yeah. +So one guy caught a twenty eight pounder like. +You know good fishing out there. +But otherwise you stop in harbour fish . +Mm. +You can take your chance. +How long how long can you stay out? +I mean I, you know, how long does th +Usually if +how long's the tide and that? +if you go out on a charter it's twelve hours you know, if you go for +Yeah, but then you're going out a distance aren't you? +To other side of Wallasey you do twelve +Yeah. +hours. +No, I mean if you just keep using the bay +Oh aye. +the bay. +Depends on time you go out for a time +Mm. +come in with tide. +eight hours. +Can you? +Yeah. +But now, this dinghy club that my mate's and he, he's got tractors at Cromer that take them out of water so +Mm. +Mm. +he's a fisher full time. +Yeah. +Mm. +What's it like around the power station? +Is, is there, is there, are they ploughing warm water into, into there or is it +Well there's warm water coming out int there? +Yeah. +Well I presume, I presumed there was. +Yeah. +Mm. +That's right. +I mean is it affecting any of that good fishing up there or is that +Well the +that a +I can, certainly you can float for and the moor. +Mm. +Yeah. +You can float from, but you get a lot of soft wind. +Right. +But, plenty of them around. +I never use them as well as my own. +That's +Mm. +right. +Is there much mackerel around? +In boat? +Er like when you go out and catch mackerel you use it for fresh bait then. +Yeah. +So +See, it's not a bad fish to eat actually, mackerel. +Mind you, we don't eat fish. +No. +And I went to last summer we took a er I took a sha er not a sha erm tt static caravan in, at er Prestatyn an and erm +Mhm. +and like, we were just flicking through Ceefax on the telly and it was like one of these luxury six berth ones and it was ninety nine quid for a week and, and +Really? +I mean it was beautiful inside! +They're normally like a two hundred and fifty, three hundred quid one +Mm. +but it was it was cos you had you know, you had to go that week kind of thing. +So we just thought well then. +Erm I took the nine year old boat out and just went out in a boat we had Mary went as well, we were like the all job for mackerel put this guy's +Mhm. +twelve guys on, that's what I didn't want two small mackerel caught in over +Mm. +three hours, you know. +Poor guy was going, well I don't understand it, you know, normally we Went to erm Malta last year and there was a great erm tt it's called an underwater safari, but, you know, normally when you're, like on Windermere like you've got a glass-bottomed boats +Oh have they? +well this was the all, the ho all the hull underneath the water line was glass so you were actually sitting you know, you weren't looking down, you were actually sitting in, in the base of the hull of the boat +Yeah. +and, and going, and they went er it went out in, off to er some of these islands off er rocks and that, tour of Malta and that it was superb! +You were abs you know you were er absolute, I mean it was, it was +Yeah. +as good as aqualunging without actually getting wet, it was great you know! +Very good idea that. +Must have made a fortune! +It was packed like three or four times a day. +Yeah. +Yeah. +I mean people are fascinated by the sea aren't they? +They really are. +Oh yeah. +My wife's just gone America shark fishing. +Oh yeah! +Right. +Yeah. +Off Mexico down that way. +Yeah. +Marlin big marlin +Yeah. +That's what they call big marlin. +Sixteen quid a day it is to put boat +Yeah. +out there. +It's not much really is it? +My friend went last year +They pay that in bloody mackerel fishing +Oh aye. +for the twelve hours don't you ? +Oh yeah. +Yeah. +He went out he went fly-drive last year, and he went down +Have you seen that +to Mexico. +have you seen that movie, it was on erm tt I was watching a programme the other day about it. +They've developed a camera for your line for th for the mackerel, for the ma marlin and the shark fishing erm and basically you can actually watch you can, you can ac you've got a your T V screen so it, it's er, it's like a spectator sport as well cos you can actually watch the, the, the fish coming to take your bait. +Yeah. +You know, so it's like yo you've got on this minute camera on the line and everything, you know so it, so that you can actually get the excitement of watching it you know, coming and taking +Can we have a little bit of a discount? +Yeah you can. +Course you can. +How much is it then? +Couple of quid each. +Couple of quid each! +Couple of quid each! +So we can start +Shark fishing's only +That's all you have, that's only have to have a little bit. +Yeah! +Yeah! +You've asked for a lot! +Can we have a lot of a discount please ? +Only gotta drink, drink, drink that's lots of drink a drink. +A drink a drink ! +Give us three quid for the pair of you. +Right. +You give him three quid and I'll give the rest in. +Cheers. +Yeah. +So you buy first two beers then. +Yeah. +Fair enough. +No! +Well isn't it? +Well I did +The guy was talking to Pete, he thought he could, he develop, he could develop for coarse fishing +Bye bye. +er, you know river fishing and that as well, there's spa special camera. +Well where does the actual camera hang off? +It's hung, it it's hung,i i it's actually not below the boat but, but it +Oh! +Sure can. +get it, you see, but i it's fantastic watching cos you know they were they, they it was sort of going along the +Yeah. +whatever they were using as bait presumably some mackerel or something like that but, but as I was saying you could see it trailing through and then all, suddenly out of like nowhere this fish would come and like chase after it +Yeah. +and snap and this, this would go off and you'd be sat there going right then, you actually +Well presumably +see it take it, you know +the camera eye would be adjustable would it? +Or +I presume so, yes. +I mean they was talking about getting a really small for erm +Oh right. +you know, to be, to be used in in sort of coarse fishing and that. +Mm. +But, of course, the other thing of course ,i it takes out the, the one that got away cos you actually see the one that got away +Yeah. +you know ? +Yeah. +There'd be some story then. +You know what'll happen is your camera would +the cameras'll magnify it anyway won't it? +Yeah it will. +It will do. +Yeah. +Yeah. +But it was really, I mean it, it meant of course that the other people on the boat could have some enjoyment as well, cos I mean, there's nothing worse i if you if there's only one rod out, or two rods out th those boats there's only like a couple of rods out int there on, on +Mm. +those for the marlin and the and the sharks and that, fishing? +And you don't get many. +Yeah. +And it's not like, sort of +Three there'll be +twelve +three or four maximum +twelve rods out, yeah. +something like that. +Yeah. +So any anybody else that's going on board is bored out their brains basically! +But at least +Yeah. +if you got T V monitors you can watch what's going +Watch it. +on. +That's really good. +So now, now I mean now with all the radar and whatever else we're using, I mean you should really be able to find fish. +Well that, that boat from Evesham that we went out on a couple a years ago it had a fish finder on it. +Mm. +So it er,fish finder on it. +Yeah. +You throw your line out, you don't get a few just biting. +No. +No, that's right. +That's right. +They've done most of them are I mean the wo certainly the ones on the little little boat trips and that, I mean, they have all it does is that it'll tell you there's some fish about, I mean, it doesn't +Mm. +tell you where to fish or +Oh no. +depths or anything like that does it? +What they're doing is there's some fish down there somewhere. +Mm. +Cos that's the most frustrating thing about fishing is when you're like you know, you could be wasting that, you, you think to yourself like I could be wasting a whole, there's not a fish anywhere round here! +You know, you could be sat here like an idiot today +Well that's it I've I've sat on +for hours on end . +Jay hours on end in middle of night freezing +Mm. +you know like and I've caught nothing. +And you've +Yeah. +thought well there's plenty of crabs in +Yeah. +summer, take your bait +Yeah. +but every time you throw out there's a crab on end of it. +You know +Yeah. +Yeah. +you think, why does that crab always have to come my line. +And all this sea yet it has to get my worm. +And same, like no fish, you think well there must be fish out there. +Yeah. +Well it's, it's luck innit? +I don't know. +I don't know what's going on. +I don't we got about three, three thirty in the morning, both of them went out to er canal somewhere up Dulgate, past Dulgate we set up and we'd we'd been fishing for about two and half hours it's aba about six thirty in the morning this old farmer comes up says er aye, aye lads, he said er I wouldn't bother it, they drained this area of the canal a few months ago! +And we said, oh ! +Yeah. +Sat there watching our floats for hours ! +I mean +Yeah. +I mean luckily you, you know, you'd gone on a car, with a car so it's a matter of throwing everything in the back and just going +That's it. +somewhere else so could have sat there all bleeding day! +And not have known anything about it. +Aye. +I've had some lonely nights. +Yeah. +Do you catch many eels, eels or anything, many eels? +No. +Didn't catch as many this year as what I have done. +Phworgh! +The slimy things that they are. +Yeah. +You get one of the lads that works with me, if he catches three of them he says well I'll have them for my dinner. +Yeah. +I know. +I know. +They look horrible! +A delicacy. +Mind you, I ate conga. +I, I erm, I was off the west co er on a holiday to the west coast of Ireland and we erm we're driving down the west coast and there was like some rocks and everything about, so we stopped and, you know, I looked by a rock pools or something, and there's this and the rock pool is like mini-swimming baths, they were, you know, probably +Mm. +twelve foot long and about six or seven foot wide and about +Mm mm. +six or seven foot deep and they're crystal clear. +And there was this old guy dragging this bloody rope with a massive hook on the end like after after, you know, I presume it was cod or mackerel something along the and I said, what the hell are you fishing? +You know cos the woman I was with wanted to go for a swim and I said no you can't this guy , so I went up to him, I said what, what on earth are you fishing for? +He said, oh there's three congas live in this pool. +It was like a four foot one, a five foot one, there's a six foot one over in the centre, there's a rock in the centre of it +Oh right. +that came out the water said look over there. +I said bloody hell! +You know, and I said to her you were gonna go swimming in there ! +He said ooh, he said there was some American students here last week and they were all swimming in there and the man came along with this thing and they bo they were all sat on the middle lo middle of there with their feet dangling in the water splashing away, he said I was dragging this down and this six footer came out,I said, and then they were he said, you've never seen anybody run so fast in your life like they go +they were dangling their toes at the end of this thing . +Yeah. +Yeah. +Oh aye. +And then, the next day I went along and he actually caught the five foot one and ki and killed it and he gave us a load of steaks off it that I sort of +Baked? +Yeah. +Yeah. +Yeah. +The trouble was they were really bony, that's the only thing it was and I don't like eating +Well +fish and bo with bones in I can't stand it. +well you can't fillet them can you? +No. +No. +Impossible. +Impossible. +No. +Cos it's like a central spinal +Yeah. +and it's all off it so you'd be just you know, it's not like +Normal flat +a fish, a flat fish. +I mean, but it was really nice it was it was a really chewy meat you know. +But +Yeah. +like shark or something and er +There's supposed to be decent congas off Beachy. +Is there? +You know the old +Mm. +oil . +Yeah. +It's me! +Down there. +Yeah. +Oh! +Plenty of rocks under there. +Yeah. +Yeah. +People say they've had some big ones. +Yeah. +But, you know about the stories you hear. +Yeah. +I've never actually seen one. +No. +They're ugly looking fish aren't they? +Bloody horrible fish! +But er evil looking things. +This guy was great though we met in Ireland cos he was erm he used to own about three or four supermarkets, er small chains and he just one day, he's about he's about fifty eight, sixty now and one day he said about five years ago he just got fed up and just walked out. +All he does is fish all day long. +And he +Yeah. +just, he lives in somebody's basement of a house, and like, in return for living there he fills the guy's freezer up with lobster, crab, you know +Mm mm. +fish and that and erm everything he does in the village i in Kilrush is everything, he just you know, he wants a new pair of shoes, wants a coat brings +Yes. +a couple of lobster, you know, and things like tha cos like to him he, he's got his crab lines and his lobster pots all the time and all that. +Erm to, it's really back to the old barter system. +Yeah. +Yeah. +It's superb! +Really good. +Eh! +Excuse me. +Oh, oh, oh, oh! +Have you not seen Ken? +No. +Oh! go and get Ken then. +Again? +Yeah. +You mean same as last week? +Yeah, yes! +Yes, yes, I was helping him. +What? +See, and I've helped Kenny out and a few the lads before and like we always finish it that's why I come this cellar Barry. +Oh right. +Oh! +Do you want one? +Yeah +Just one, just one. +go on, go on. +Just tell, send Alan down again. +Alan! +Said it's alright . +Have you ever tried octopus? +Erm no. +Er no I haven't. +No. +I mean, squid I've eaten a lot of. +Bit like that innit? +Squid. +Yeah. +I've had octopus soup. +That was quite well a weird taste. +I like shark. +Have you eaten shark? +No. +Oh I like shark, it's really nice cos it it's really meaty, I mean, it's like eating meat. +Like steak though innit? +Yeah. +Yeah, it's like steak. +That's right. +It's nice and ju tender I believe. +Yeah. +Yeah. +But +But it's sort of thick and chewy it's not, you know it's not flaky like fish, it's like a almost like a meat. +It's really good. +They do in erm where do they do it round here always? +Erm always got it in erm tt oh! +Mick at Joseph's place, Mick and Jose erm in Lancaster. +Oh God! +Above the Bang and Olufsen shop in Lancaster, d'ya know Robertson's of Leicester? +Up King Street? +Yeah. +Next to Plato's. +Yeah. +The erm, electrical shop? +Yeah. +It's above there. +Oh! +So it's a it's a nice place cos it's like it they do a great spread of I mean you can go for like a nice meal there, but you can like also eat, you know dips and +Yeah. +hamburger +Yeah. +or whatever, a big steak or whatever you want and the +And how do you cook it? +They cook it i they cook it in er Cajun, in, it's a, sort of, in a sort of spice thing, they have sort of Mexican, not Mexican erm tt Cajun, South American, and +Yeah. +some states of America around the Mississippi New Orleans +Aha. +New Orleans . +Er but I've had it just grilled, you know and always done in butter. +In butter? +Yeah. +Yeah. +But I like trying all these things now and again. +Mhm. +Mm. +You ca I mean you occasionally see it in the fish markets. +Yeah. +And er I mean, things like squid and that I ca I quite like, but I'd never think of get buying it, I wouldn't buy it and cook it myself or anything. +I just +Oh no. +the trouble is, once you actually +Tried that +so what sorry? +I remember once, you know, getting and cutting a rabbit and things, by the time you'd actually cut the thi damn thing +You've gone off it. +you'd gone off it cos you'd been heading, and gutting it, and whatever else ! +And you know, you're sat there and you think +Yeah. +I don't really wanna eat this, you know ! +It's alright if it comes to you in a ca in a, in a, as a, as a meal +Comes up ready-made. +Yeah. +But er, when you actually see what you're doing to it, you know. +I had this octopus once in Germany and it, we'd gone out for a meal and I was gonna have steak and mushrooms and +Mm. +er, the lads said what are we having the starters like? +I said, oh I'll have what you're ordering. +Well they ordered soup of the day you see and they brought this, I tasted it had a real funny, a weird taste +Mm. +anyway, and I sort of said to the waitress, why what was it? +She said octopus. +Urgh! +You wouldn't have had it if you'd have known? +No. +I don't think I would. +No. +It's not something +No. +I would have picked. +No. +I wouldn't. +I certainly +Well +wouldn't. +it was it were +I mean I like fish but I wouldn't, I wouldn't choose it. +Had a funny taste but it was quite nice. +Yeah. +What was it, a sort of fishy ta I mean was it a sort of fishy soup? +No. +No? +It didn't have a fishy taste, it we like beef but I presume it's the way they've cooked it. +Mm. +Cos they all put spices in and everything. +But er I definitely wouldn't have ordered it. +No. +No. +Like now, I don't think I would order it again. +Yeah. +But then I had steak and mushrooms to follow. +Quite nice. +So if you don't eat what you catch why choose +Why do I wanna +sea fishing? +No, I mean I, cos I, you know I,i I spend a long time coarse fishing so I understand actual fishing for pleasure as opposed to +Yeah, yeah. +like to eat, you know, there's not much you can catch coarse fishing that you can eat anyway erm but most people who go sea fishing do it to eat what they catch. +Or to sell what they catch or whatever, I mean +Aha. +Mm. +I, I do it I like, I like +But why sea fi why, why does sea fishing interest you and not coarse fishing sort of thing? +Because you there's more opportunity for big ones +Mm. +if anything. +Mm. +Like, you go canal fishing, you know, you're only getting +Yeah, that's right. +like you get the odd four and half pound +Yeah. +pike or chub +Yeah. +whatever +Yeah. +but you know, you, you come to the fairly big'uns out there. +So +Mm. +so I suppose that's why I do it. +Mm. +Yeah. +To see if I can get a big one. +Mm. +Can you get +You going home? +away now? +No. +Nothing like trying to get rid of me is there! +Are you going home? +I'm no bother! +Is there more in this week than last week? +Yeah. +I've never seen as many bodies! +Yeah. +And I think my God ! +Their brain must be scrambled as my daughter would say ! +Yeah. +That's true. +Are they, still coming in then now? +No, there hasn't +There hasn't been many now. +What +You staying? +time is it now? +Twenty to one nearly. +Oh is it? +Oh! +There won't be any +See next Friday, we're coming next Friday for . +Ooh! +My little ratbag is. +She said I would +No you'll enjoy that. +I'm gonna try and leave her here! +Let somebody else do her work. +We're trying to get rid of you +Actually +Anna! +it's good, I mean it's good because of the amount of lighting and effects that they bring, I mean it's interesting like, you know. +We come for +But yo you come for an hour or so and then,tha that'll be enough +That's enough. +you know, if you don't li if you're not into the music or into dancing then +Well, she is. +We're +No. +not, we're all fogeys +No. +you see. +That's right. +But she wouldn't like tonight because +No. +she's not into, what I call is it heavy metal? +Or summat like +Yeah. +that, heavy rock +Yeah. +or something? +Heavy rock. +Well, erm, she's not into that but +Yeah. +I said we'd bring her. +She'll like it I think, she can dance. +Mind you, all these youngsters can't but you can't see, you know normally when I stand at bar I can normally see the door but I can't see it. +I know the feeling. +Ooh! +Feeling. +Do you normally have ? +Summat like that. +There'll be just over two hundred in. +Cor! +That's a lot then innit? +Did you get that change? +Well, I give it to what do they call him? +Hughey is it? +Hughey. +Yeah. +I gave it him. +I must when I came a bit short again, I said +Yeah. +Well we changed fifteen quid last week didn't we? +Yeah, but I've been taking out, cos we had a rogue living above us you see, and I thought well he's one of these that'll take owt if he can get it you see. +Mm. +So I thought I don't have a lot of money in flat, not that I have a lot, but we like it out of way don't we? +The whisky bottle, we'll fill it up now won't we? +You never know, might get desperate again. +True. +Mind you +But +you were busy last night, is that what it was, did that knock you out? +Yeah. +Yeah. +Didn't you expect +Yeah. +so many? +Er, no, no, we were, I mean last night we'd gone up from the week before on a rave, we'd had about si ninety in, and last night we had about two hundred and fifty. +So +Is the, is the Fridays +normally better than Saturdays er, money-wise, the takings? +I mean, is it more +Well it's i +people in? +er, er er er, er it, it hasn't been, I mean,i it, it was, last night was the first one that had gone on to like over two hundred. +So this week you've done well Friday and Saturday +Yeah. +cos you've got more in. +That's right. +It's not bad though is it? +No. +No. +But I mean it's, now it's coming to the end of January people are starting to get paid again and starting to have paid off their Christmas. +I mean that's been the killer. +You know, you've had Christmas, then you get hit with all your credit cards and all, then you get hit with all the electricity, and gas, and telephone. +Electricity, gas and telephone and everything. +Can you explain why it's dearer on Fridays and Saturdays? +Cos it's different type of event and music. +You don't think if you +if you put it up to same they wouldn't come likely? +No. +No. +So it's +No. +No. +you don't complain at this, you don't complain at two fifty er, each one, no? +No. +Well some of them do. +Well some of them do, but not, not serious, not serious +No I meant you don't, you're not bothered, you don't mind? +It's +No, I mean +you make twice as much on a Friday on the door as you do on the Saturday. +No we don't +No we don't cos we don't, we don't promote it you see on a Friday. +Oh! +So they +They +don't promote cos they +they pay for the hire of the hall. +They pay for the hire, yeah. +But you've gotta say, oh right. +So whatever they make on the door +Yeah. +after they've paid +Yeah. +for the hire is profit. +But they spen they spend a lot of money on, on lights and they, I mean they they spend they spend about seven hours in here on a Friday just doing the lights and special effects and +I like that smoke one. +I saw it first time last week and it were great! +Yeah. +Really +Well the, the first time they were here when they gonna have the all ni when they were gonna have the all-nighter erm, they hired a laser in it was superb! +But I mean that's that'll cost them five hundred quid alone just for +Are the all-nighters popular with you, in here? +Well we +Well you've had +we ha +a couple haven't you? +No we haven't. +The +None at all? +the the police and the local authorities stop them. +I mean, I have had all-nighters in the past +Yeah. +but that was for like the school trips so +Well why have they stopped it now? +you know +There's nothing wrong with them. +What's to do with them? +Well it was in paper weren't it? +Well +Yeah, but used to get away with it. +I know. +Yeah, but th th +I know. +they're putting it down in the paper that +Mad, drugs. +people'll take drugs and stuff like that , well, if they're gonna take drugs , then they'll take it anyway. +Well I've been here every week and there's no bother with them or +No. +No, no. +Anyway +Oh well +you can't beat the system can you? +You can't. +And you can't beat the police cos sooner or later they will fight flipping hell to get you +Well th they're just funny that's all. +Right. +Well +Right, what? +That, I ordered that one. +Mm. +That one? +Well, but it's only er er record book. +You were saying +How did the bar go? +Don't know. +Just trying to +Have you got any? +Don't be sil don't be silly! +The ultimate collection of your favourite . +You have to make one order. +You could can't be far off nine hundred then? +Six? +I've never seen a Saturday go so fast. +Yeah it well I, come on! +Anything goes fast after Friday. +Yeah. +It's not so much that it +Seven fifty. +Two two pound fifty . +Just over. +Mind you, I thought oh yeah. +Two hundred people. +I +So two hundred paid tonight? +No. +About hundred and eighty paid. +Feels like a hundred and fifty and get out of it. +Yeah. +Twenty fi I mean last week there was a hundred sixty in and that was actually up on the previous couple of weeks, just +Mm. +in er +Oh yeah. +Wasn't it? +Yeah. +Well I mean, January +It is getting quite +people are getting paid again. +getting paid again. +People have got some money again. +I dunno, I, I, I think the Friday nights, mostly on the Friday nights . +Yeah, might well do. +Might well do. +Please can I have my twenty five I'm owed for like two weeks? +Oh right. +Two weeks. +Well I don't, mine's gotta go in the cleaners +Yeah, well +Oh I need some +I have to clean them up, I'll have to +Yeah I know. +take it to the cleaners +I know, I might get some +so it's not the fucking cleaner. +I'm gonna get some cleaning, I'll get some cleaning fluid this week. +You know which one it, it is, it sort of activated one. +Erm +You're gonna kill somebody one day you know using that! +Bloody . +I give them a, I did give them a good rinse afterwards though. +It's gonna have to +It was +it's gonna have to be erm erm dub dub wurgh wurgh erm tt I can get a delivery on Thursday, I need, we need a delivery on Thursday anyway +It, yes. +when we're open so I'll get a delivery on Thursday and I'll get some er +Well I'll do the delivery if you want +cleaner +I'll do the delivery when I've +bit of cleaner. +Okay. +Yeah, so that's an, an idea for +Glasses. +Yeah, we run out of pints again tonight. +Well we didn't run out, we run out of but there was quite a few outside in the +I should hope so! +I know, but I'm loathed to give them out. +No. +Unless I know who's getting them. +Mm. +Seventy five where are on now? +Ten +And black Ashley came in. +Yeah. +I thought Laura was coming behind the bar to fucking us support. +I know what Laura was +What? +drinking. +She walked behind the bar, got herself a drink and went and fucking sat and watched us! +Mm! +Oh! +Oh! +The little pratt +Obnoxious +dickhead! +Yeah. +yeah but he said +Oh yeah, he was legless all night weren't he? +I got him every time, until the end and I said I am not serving him this time! +Hughey, you serve him! +Well that's right. +Cos he was absolutely incapable of talking +Yes. +let alone giving any money. +And I said it's alright we're still in +Have you ever seen him +judge from their looks you know what they're drinking and you just like go vaguely waving his empty glass +Well you should take his glass and +you fill it and take the money out their hand don't you? +Yeah. +D'ya think so? +Yep. +Yeah the,ye oh yeah, honestly yeah. +I wo I would have done tonight those but +Oh yeah +talking to Alan . +Interrupted by customers. +Mm. +No I was er talking to, is it Alan? +Security guard. +Aren't you the lucky one! +Well he's better than Stuart! +Just! +I'm saying nothing! +Well, yeah, but I mean the stories they tell about fishing so they're different stories +Oh yeah. +and we caught a +Yeah. +whereas er +He doesn't lie to his wife any more. +I have been, I have been in my time! +Coarse fishing though, he was sea fishing, sea fishing. +When are you gonna give up smoking and save some +I know. +money? +You could pay your mortgage on what you smoked! +I don't give a fuck! +It's a foolish fucking ! +I can't with my habits any more. +Gambling and drinking. +Did you win any money today? +Only a bit. +Have you got my keys? +Just a wee bit . +No! +I put them +Ah. +on the table. +Sorry! +I've got my keys. +Can we not finish our drinks Barry? +You did it like I did it didn't you? +Course you can finish your drinks! +Get your coat and we'll rattle it, ah, your keys are there. +Maybe I've got a collection of these half pints at home! +I know that. +Well, bring them back! +That's where all these long thin ones have gone. +No, no, I use it's usually fucked. +Why don't you just take a case of it, one of those cases home, one of the empty empty cases? +And bring back the glasses. +And bring all the glasses back. +I'll tell you what they're . +What are? +They do take the bottoms off them. +They don't give a fuck +Oh I know! +They do take the bottoms of them Barry. +Oh! +Well I told you +Well you see, you actually see tho them little punks collecting them up at the end of the night don't you? +Putting them under their coats like. +How, how many what did you carry out yourself? +Tonight? +Yeah. +Five bottoms. +Well that's +Well that +half a case. +And I sold four of those as well like. +Yeah. +They carry out. +And I sold three three double gin three , you know. +Yeah but yo you always sell a few to take out don't +Well that's why they brought it. +Most probably take out and sell them what's +Yeah. +left at the end of the night. +I mean, not all our customers abs are absolutely stupid. +Buy a bottle at five to two and leave it at two o'clock. +It's the nice ones that leave their drink there. +Mm! +I'm amazed they haven't +Well anyway I was talking to er Rosette tonight cos I went to the office for some change and I, then I had this like. +She said, I hear the Empire, or, or hear The Garden's doing well on a Friday night. +Must have heard about that from Alan. +He goes it's too fucking dead ! +Well it's it, last day of week +Where? +Popping up to Christies and just after you go up the top. +No, no, no, where? +Where are you talking about? +The Empire? +But apparently they're doing quite well on a Wednesday with the students. +Students, yeah I know. +And erm Mark was in last week he said +They're getting six hundred like. +well, Mark said it was, Mark er guessed about four hundred. +He's, he, he went in last week, he went in this week and er +Well Paul, Paul said to me six hundred , about seven hundred +Yeah. +normally he said, he said well there would be about six hundred. +Ni Nigel mentioned, he told me it was erm er like four, five hundred in tt to +Not bad though is it? +Well it's very good innit? +I mean, on a Wednesday. +And it's only a quid to get in and it's a pound, pound a pint. +Two quid and, and a drink, yeah. +But on the other hand they're making a little bit at a pound a pint. +Well they're making five or six hundred, they're bound +to be getting on with it. +That's right. +That's getting in the +I don't think they've got a lot of staff on. +I wouldn't have thought they'd bother with a +No. +student night, having a lot of staff on, it's pointless having ah, I mean, the bouncers in that situation. +Well you'd only need one. +But we don't need a bouncer on +Except, mind you, the, the rough, the erm rugby club gave the band a bit of er, a rough seeing to. +What band? +He had some band that were awful apparently and the +whole of the rugby team were lying in front of stage with their +They, they've never left, they were playing the rugby club? +fingers up. +No, no, no, no, no. +No! +University +University rugby club. +Oh! +The Uni's? +Yeah. +Mhm. +Yeah. +The band went ran off in tears apparently. +Couldn't cope. +Seeing the University Rugby Club I would, I would have eh! +Mm. +Must be some narky bastards in the rugby club! +Oh! +I can't get it out it's stuck on his collar I hope she comes back for it next week. +But six hundred on a Wednesday night that's pretty good. +Mm. +Does the Sugar House get that many people in? +No. +No. +The Sugar House only opens er Thursday, Friday, Saturday. +Or, or,o we always have done. +I mean, we we opened originally, first year, every night of the bloody week and it was pointless, absolutely pointless. +Is that bigger than the Empire? +I've never been in it? +Yeah. +No! +Er yeah. +Yes it is. +Is it? +It's legal, it's legal +Well it's on, it's on a Thursday, yeah. +it's it's legally bigger than the Empire but the Empire can get more people in cos he's got upstairs and +Yeah. +that +Mm. +see. +But, of course, erm for licensing they don't take that particularly into consideration up there. +Well they half upstairs straight away. +Yeah. +Yeah. +So er +I mean, I think, I, I think the Empire legally is well I thought it was nine hundred +Seven fifty I think. +I can't think er I don't know. +I think it's nine hundred. +I mean you could cer you could +Well I thought it was seven fifty. +certainly get seventeen, eighteen hundred in there. +Well yeah. +Even that Bob Monkhouse opened up quite +Yeah. +quite nice. +Yeah. +Well, they'll have the Garden won't they? +Oh yeah. +Mind you +Probably, fucking tell by, cos there was I thought +They we +there was too many. +Yeah. +But I mean they were banging they were banging fifteen hundred in for that disco for the first +Mm. +few months weren't they? +No, twelve, twelve or thirteen. +They never had fifteen. +Didn't they? +I mean the Sugar House, his capacity's +just been upped to eleven hundred I think. +Erm I mean, it was always nine hundred, but it's been upped to eleven hundred last year I think. +Well we used to put, I mean, I put twelve, thirteen hundred in the Sugar House. +But tha but you it's full at that, you know. +Mm. +Whereas the, the, the, you, you could you could, you could fit sixteen, seventeen hundred. +No, I reckon,th th there was,th th they reckon between a, a thousand and e eleven hundred for a night, you know. +But you couldn't fucking move at that. +Yeah, but it was a, it was also a ver it was a bit of a celebrity, I mean it was people, people were crushed around, bloody hell I mean +Yeah, that's right. +, yeah. +all the downstairs, I mean all the plebs were upstairs all the downstairs was erm +Yeah but,ma maybe, maybe a hundred people . +Mm. +I'm sure. +I mean, I don't know I, you see I left I had to come here so I left before Bob Monkhouse and everything, I just, I, all I did was go for couple of free drinks and plate of free food, which, I don't think I got. +And left. +You get a few fucking with the chef. +You know deep sea diving at +Yes you would. +You, you betrayed us then, you'd left hadn't you? +You'd left me! +I had to leave. +You'd fled us! +And gone to work for the opposition. +Were you op well I didn't reckon you were opposition. +But I did go out or something. +Just cos you thought you were go +It's funny though +just cos you, you were coming out with about two hundred and fifty quid a week for working seven nights a week! +No, I, originally, they they were open seven nights a week. +I know. +No. +Was it four times a week? +And you were secured weren't you secured there? +Mm. +Oh! +Seven nights a week, two hundred and fifty in my pocket guaranteed. +Going to bed with Jean fucking, fucking shite! +Kelly's ! +Christ! +Some of the schemes they come up with. +Get your blood going. +I mean, I'll, I'll, I'll be interesting to see how they they start next week with a a load of er bands on Thursday nights. +Mm. +I mean, they're all chartsey stuff but +Mm. +you know, I, I da that kind of stuff doesn't draw punters generally, chart stuff cos the people who go +I dunno, I think the young +the people who are interested +I think the young people go to it like. +Well me yeah, maybe. +Maybe some of that will. +Yeah. +But generally pop, poppy type +A lot, a lot of +Top of the Pops stuff doesn't, in the sense that people who like to go and see live music don't people who like that kind of music prefer the dis prefer it in a +Yeah. +disco context. +Yeah. +Yeah. +Not, not, seeing sort of a live concert. +Anyway +In fact, in fact most of the stuff they don't like anyway. +Mm. +True. +Well they're not lo all those appearances are P A, it's all gonna be mimed and backing tapes. +Erm that blooming Labour Party cancelling that conference on March twenty second and which has +Oh yeah. +messed me up! +Cos I was Mary wanted to go and see Si Simply Red at G MEX, and last weekend we co or weekend before last when they were on, their big, er we couldn't because I had the kids Friday night and the two of them Saturday night and it, that was the two nights. +Were you gonna go with her? +Yeah. +So, so so I said well we'll go to the N E C or Sheffi she said oh I'm not traipsing all that way, you know, just for the concert. +So and she was, she was moaning away like sort of oh we alright! +I'll take you over to Paris and we'll watch them in Paris on the twenty so she said, oh when? +So I said, twentieth of March. +She said oh! +Tt. +Oh! +Ah! +The Labour Party Conference is on so I can't go. +So I said +oh dear me! +Yeah. +And then she came in, oh, Labour Party Conference is cancelled! +Oh bugger! +Mm. +You see Jean on the telly with Neil Kinnock? +No. +No, I've been told about it. +When? +Ee, er, Friday. +It's on all the national news. +It wasn't, it wasn't on the regional news it was peculiar! +Well we did +It was on the six o'clock nat well it was on all day, one o'clock, two o'clock, three o'clock +Yeah the +four o'clock, six o'clock +normal news. +nine o'clock yeah. +It wasn't on the regional news. +Where were they? +Salford Keys. +He was up seeing all the north west candidates parliamentary candidates. +Jean was in that horrible sa mustard and black striped +contraption! +Stuck out like a sore +So that everybody noticed! +Yeah. +Her dressing up outfit. +Hear Labour are one point five I heard it yesterday +Yeah. +All the sh +I thought she was going to be meeting him next weekend then? +All the dirty tricks start now though. +At the regional conference at Blackpool. +Erm +I don't, I don't, I don't whether he's going to that. +Forgotten what it's called. +Yeah, it's si I know it's north +Yeah. +west, er no,la regional councils re Labour council, the urban councils or something like that. +Something like that, yeah. +No,na well I don't know, he might be. +I don't know whether he's going to that, he might be but this was, this, he was up sort of seeing, meeting all the Labour Party candidates for the north west. +Well if I had a million invested, have it all invested . +Yep! +Yep! +I agree. +Seriously, I'd fucking have it out of there, everything I own. +But he ta all the dirty tricks are starting now. +Kinnock's a funny he really is. +He's er the Sunday Times tomorrow +Er, I remember you said about +full Sunday Times tomorrow, Major expose on the lader le the lea the Labour leaderships ties with a Moscow Moscow company. +Did you see it? +Yeah. +Oh you mean, they're still getting Moscow's +Yeah. +It's like, what's it they've got? +I think it's about time I got my share of the +Well who's doing it, tomorrow, what they call it? +Report he's doing tomorrow? +Oh +Er Sunday Times. +Personal view of the files on . +Typically . +Dennis Healey, fuck! +He's gonna out with some stick! +Kinnock was saying to erm the candidates, you know, we re I realize that a lot of you are getting it rough at the moment, cos there's about five Labour +Yeah. +candidates all been arrested in the north +Yeah. +west mysteriously. +But er Jean not a . +Yeah. +Derek, there's somebody Derek +Derby +Derby, that's right. +Blackpool's under investigation. +Anyway, so erm he said, but you know he was saying to them that er, it's not just at the bottom end, he said, in our village in Wales we've got the Sun have now positioned two reporters who have lived in the village the these the they sit in a car outside his house day and night +photographing who comes in. +They've been to his little boy's primary school, interviewed the teachers and headmistress and all the school friends and everything just trying to get a dirty story. +How did you er how did you know about the football? +What football? +The Morecambe match. +What d'ya mean? +How did you know about it? +Cos I saw it when we went past. +When is it on, tomorrow? +Yeah. +I think so. +Oh. +Did you see the time by any chance? +Either seven thirty or eight. +Be seven thirty I would imagine. +Plenty of time. +Or seven o'clock maybe. +It's unusual, some time if, from seven to eight. +Mm. +That's in the F A trophy. +Yep! +D'ya wanna go to it then? +Well okay. +Is it the Vauxhall trophy or the F A trophy? +F A trophy. +Mm. +That's the ta two cups they can win now. +Isn't it Barry? +Who, Morecambe? +Yeah. +League and +Oh. +Still in the league, they're still in their league cup are they? +No, I don't, no, the league, actual league. +H F S league. +Well that's not a cup. +Yeah, but you get a cup when you win it. +No you don't. +Do you not? +No. +Oh! +I don't know. +You don't get a cup if you win the league in first division do you? +Yes! +No you don't. +You do! +You don't! +Barry, you do! +You don't, you get a shield. +Shield? +Yeah. +Oh! +There's only one shield, and that's the charity shield. +You can't call it the league cup can you? +Cos there's already a league cup int there? +Completely different. +Barry can you what are the H F S league cup did you call it? +What does H F S stand for anyhow? +Er I don't know. +I presume it's some sponsor or other. +Don't know who it is. +It's not very good publicity is it? +If nobody knows who it is. +Well do you know what it is? +No. +I just said I don't know. +Said it's not very good publicity if nobody knows what it is is it? +That's at Wembley. +Yeah. +Gary Wilkinson's pretty good isn't he? +Yeah. +Well he did +he did well in the last er +Yeah, got to the semi-finals. +British Open, or whatever it was. +Well tha the last one he's got to the semi-finals and he got beat by Steve Davis. +Pardon? +It's a test match in two minutes. +What of?? +Mm. +Well I'll go across quickly now then. +Okay. +I'll see you in a minute. +Okay. +Oh! +Well in a minute anyhow. +You've been a long time! +I know. +Why? +I don't know. +It +Oh. +They're showing all them, mm, all the er wickets and all the runs from the first day onwards. +That was on the first day. +No, this is the third day. +Oh! +And me we've missed the first two innings. +Pardon? +We've missed the first two innings. +Are you playing on Saturday? +Dunno. +Ah! +No I'm not,. +They've taken that . +See Van Basten got another hat trick. +Well on A C Milan +Did you see it this morning? +Did you see all the goals this morning? +Well what on? +Channel Four. +They o show all the Italian goals on Channel Four. +What on? +What time? +Channel Four News. +Half past eight. +Mm. +I'm . +Mm. +Show all the goals from Europe, and Spain, and Germany, and Italy. +Every day? +No. +Just, well I dunno, cos they're not on every day are they? +They don't play every day of the week do they? +A bit too tired don't you think? +Most teams do in F A. +It was er, first division. +Who? +Well, second division teams. +No they don't. +They've planted a new tree there haven't they? +Where? +There. +Where? +The one right in front, at the very +Well that's been there ever since we moved in! +No, not that bush. +I mean that +No, the tree. +Yeah. +Has it? +Yeah. +Well I can't remember that now. +Unless it was small and it's grown ! +So when you don't know when you go back in then? +The time the trains are? +Nope! +Could do that +They're getting some more tomorrow aren't they? +I don't know yet. +Cos in you don't know if it'll be moved by then. +Cos she said they're moving it aren't they? +From his bedroom. +Yes. +That'll take about ten minutes . +Oh it would. +If more comes in. +Do you want me to get that? +No, I'll get it. +What, what he's, what he's had to say is, is, is to, is to get the ball rolling and get some money, and then we can start looking. +He'll give us that +Mm. +without any security. +Mm. +Can have that for starters. +At a write off of thirty pound a barrel. +Oh! +He's going to write off one as well? +This is what he's saying, yeah. +S so you don't get involved or anything, this is, we can just sign it off. +All he wants off us, we're gonna give him analyses of your last three months' invoices. +Right. +Right? +And then wants just some form of a business plan, which +Mm. +is probably similar to what your +Yeah. +Yeah. +What you did that, on that other thing. +And then, and he'll come and see us, sort it all out, sort the installation out and erm and, and +we've got fifteen left. +Then we then he says, then wha well cos what we're saying is, then if your barrelage goes up to four barrels, say +Mm. +go back and get another ten to fifteen +Another write off. +Mm. +er another write off. +He says, so you you you you you're not, you're not stinging yourself up to something er +Mm. +and you take as you improve the business. +It's whether, you know, what we've got to look at really is what, what, basis we can use that fifteen thou for. +Mm. +That's right. +As a starter. +That's right. +You know. +The biggest thing is a case of refurbishment to, is that, that's what we want. +That cocktail bar looks alright in the corner over there. +Mm. +Then you could sort of do something with the +Yeah. +Yeah. +Bas let's wander round and have a look. +I mean +Mm. +Er do you want, there's another the idea of what that ? +What do you think on that Barry, on that score? +Yeah. +If we can get fifteen quickly. +Yeah. +Cos we've missed the March he said, because th it's the new financial year so +Aha. +Aha. +you know, so if we can ge if we can get fifteen in quickly we can start saying well look, while +Mm. +we're gonna spend that fifteen +Yeah. +for +That's right. +And then get it going. +Anyway, I said we'll have to . +Yeah. +I mean, basically, blokes have written everything off. +Yeah. +So, so I mean, they've just walked +Yeah. +away from the whole thing, so +So +with all the pumps, heads, +All yo all +cellar, everything! +all we're gonna have to do is, put that in, well we might +Yeah. +we might, we might, what money we're saving we might be able to say well what about something +Yeah. +you know. +Yeah. +Yeah. +We will turn round, but I say +We, we own this, you know, d'ya wanna buy it, can, d'ya wanna buy the equipment? +Mm. +They might say well, put new in, you know, but gonna save them an arm and a leg and maybe we can ah, either negotiate something definite or +Well it's not, it's, I mean it's not only the cost of the equipment, it's actually the cost of pu installing it. +You know, you need +That's right, yeah. +to have a company in to install it. +won't need to push +Gonna be, it's gonna be I mean, it's a long run, it's, it's +Yeah. +gonna be a good two days +Yeah. +wanted to do that. +Well they, they'll put a condition on as well. +Have a word with Colin. +Yeah. +Right. +Here we are. +Here we are backstage. +Erm that's just cupboard, staff toilets, and spirit stuff in there. +Yeah. +area +Sa what's that for? +Ice making machine. +Oh yeah! +That's what we want a +Dishwasher. +glass washer. +Erm there's one freezer, that's a freezer. +Er it's small but well it's a reasonable kitchen +Yeah, it's quite a good one +int it? +really. +Fridge. +They do say that er, that the er it's +cos you have to anything on there, food-wise. +Yeah, you've got to have food anyway. +So I mean, if they've had it. +But +Mm. +I mean it's, it's er, it needs somebody working at it full time +Yeah. +erm and just being, being prepared to su suffer a few months of building +Yeah. +it up basically. +Yeah. +That's, that's the, that's where you've got er freezer freezer and a chest freezer there as well. +That's a lift straight down to the cellar. +Who put that in? +Charlie . +Tha I mean the whole building's brand new, he, well +Yeah. +I mean it's, what? +Er eight years +Yeah. +old or whatever. +Er, we've got all packed in for I mean that might be worth putting back on. +No. +Doubt +When it +if it's +when it got to the stage that we only open like, one and a half days a week +Yeah. +we said, well it's not really worth, from your company's point of view, such an expensive piece of equipment for a I mean,was doing the process thing then, you know, we could utilize the equipment elsewhere. +But, er, if you're not really gonna be still like split cups but well +Yeah. +it's, it's useful for the gas sort of thing +Oh yeah. +Whatever, whatever +I mean we'll +Yeah. +be expecting that. +Yeah. +Well yo do your +So +do, do you know? +Oh yeah! +Yeah, I know that. +Well when everything's sorted, that's it. +So you got, there's a lot of wasted space in this club. +Mm! +Phenomenal amount of wasted space. +Yeah. +I used to think what . +Where does this lead to? +This is the back of the, the disco. +Yeah. +Right, there was a disco +console on the back. +Mm. +Right. +Aye. +And I got, I've got about two hundred of these poly-foam chairs as well back +Yeah. +there, which I got off one of my +Here's the piano. +That's the piano. +And these are . +Yeah . +I mean we have on a couple of occasions always done like fortieths and that, on a couple of them. +We actually set up buffet in there +Mm. +which worked reasonably well. +Mm. +I think one did it, you know what I mean +Yeah. +tart it up and whatever. +Mm. +Erm, and what else worked well erm for a while, we were doing the women's darts. +And we had about three boards in here and we had a board in there. +I mean, there must be about seven boards in all. +Right. +Was that a competition was it? +No, it was a weekly thing. +Because, what they were doing, they were going to individual pubs +Oh yeah. +Which couldn't cope +Yeah. +with it, and th wha on their knock-outs and their cups and everything they +Yeah. +wanted them all in one place. +So +Aha +but erm there was a bit of jealousy in the la licensees started getting a bit er er +Mm. +because we're taking the trade away from them, you know they would have obviously had +They were all the other pubs and the darts ? +Yeah. +They'd have had a lot . +A bit of competition from other place. +Well, at that stage we were talking to the men's darts secretary came along and was saying, he'd be quite interested in, in knocking up, you know, one of the Lancashire matches or something +Oh! +like that. +It's a +Well it's the stage for it int it? +Th thing is, you can put it on there, put it on sta you can er film it, and bang it on the big screen over there. +Mhm. +which is what I, I, in the I had Eric Bristow and Maureen one night, and, I mean, it was just little dart board in the corner, but what I did was, I had a big screen like that and I just got student television service just to film it live and just throw it straight back up onto the big +Yeah. +onto the thing, so you know, it was like well it's better than being at the telly. +I mean, it's better +Mm. +than +Watching that. +because th on the telly they haven't got those. +I mean, I'm +Mm. +amazed at the, on the world championships, they've only got those lighting up boards +That's right. +haven't they? +That's right, yeah. +You know, and, I, instead of having I mean +Screen up. +why they don't just put a screen up +Yeah. +that beats me, you know. +They do other sport etcetera. +See what I mean? +Mm. +Yeah. +Well that's part of the course because, we need to sort, with Johnny's entertainment out with a roof. +Yeah. +Alright. +They've got two or three +little leaks. +What it is is, the ventilation on the roof, ventilation shafts when the wind's driven it drives under and leaks through. +And we get it in two or three places, the toilets are, are the key one. +And you don't see with that. +Roof tiles are a fu bloody cost a fortune! +Yeah, so damn! +I didn't bring the I'll, I'll go and I'll go and get the key for that. +No, I'll let you see it, may as well while you're here. +You can see floor +What's the floor, underneath the floor? +Concrete. +I think, what, what you mean +What is +the actual car it's just carpet. +You see it was out in the, probably is still out in the hall that one. +Yeah. +I mean,closed now, it +Mm. +was open when Colin was there that time of the day. +Yeah. +You know, you'd have ten, they say +Yeah. +ten, if there was only ten people in, they'd all be drinking six or seven +Yeah. +pints. +You haven't got a cold shelf in here. +But I mean, that wouldn't be +No. +that's not that difficult to put in here. +We'll get them +Yeah. +Exactly. +I think we'll be able to get them to put them in for us. +No. +Yeah. +Oh we've gotta pay that one haven't we? +To pay that one? +I think so, yeah. +We've got two coming for ourselves, but +Yeah. +Yeah. +we'll be able to get them off Gary I think, yeah. +And we'll be able to say look, we want, we want how man how many have you got behind there? +Have you got cold shelves behind there? +We've got, one, two, three, four behind there. +Right. +So we could get a couple for here +Yeah. +couldn't we? +Yeah. +And you're painting over that. +I've gotta come and paint +I mean, really, if, if you look fifteen thousand, if you could spend fifteen thousand doing all this up +Ah yeah. +and you could write off barrels, you could still improve your barrel er, your barrels a week int it? +Oh yeah! +Yeah. +You need, er you need to +Definitely. +Yeah. +Oh yeah. +And you don't need say, you don't need, you only need like one private function a week. +And promotions, you know, Malibu promotion night where the +Do promotions, that's right. +Yeah. +And yo and your er see what I mean about this area up here, I mean it's not a bad thingy. +No. +No I mean, I don't think +Just time to sit and have a drink and all that. +Well +I mean, if you wanted you can use the big screen. +You see cos, we put it that position cos er, the only dead part of the club is just literally +Yeah. +in the corner. +O the other way you can see the screen from everywhere. +Erm +I mean, how much do you reckon it'll cost? +If we said ou the carpet, we said well a certain area of the carpet wants +Yeah. +Erm +I mean, it's quite a big floor area when you look at it. +How much did you say +Yeah, probably. +in all your nightclubs and, what did you say they do a ? +We'll nothing, we'll, won't be able to paint the floor and put the carpets down on +I mean I +that floor. +I would have thought to be honest, I would have thought you don't need any of that area +No. +carpeted. +Just to, probably, very ends of +Don't you, you want your raised area, this +You want your two raised areas carpeted. +Er, by, by the bar would you say it no not right in front +you know, have that +Yeah. +running to about three foot back. +Yeah. +Yeah that +Well +but you don't really want it up to the bar if you're going to get +No I'm saying that +you go right up to the bar +Yeah. +you want it up to +See if you put artists on and you have this area as some kind of without carpet on +Mm. +in some ways, you haven't put, you can actually be, you know, dancing on this area. +I mean,tha that's the problem we got at the moment. +Yeah. +On Mary's do, what we did, I put soul machine over here where the screen was +Yeah. +so people could dance on the er on the actual dance floor if they wanted. +Erm I mean, it's not ideal but it really, it worked. +It wor even, providing you haven't got a lot of if you've only got about a hundred people it's not too bad that cos it, it also creates a bit more atmosphere. +But, it's a better i it's not a bad designed place in a sense that, that I mean, it's a reasonable size room +Mm. +and you ca and three hundred people er, you can take three hundred quite +Yeah. +easily I mean, you know, we've had four, fives hundred in. +Mm. +You can take three hundred quite easily. +But the erm the other thing about it is if you have a hundred people in it can be so also be a good atmosphere, you know? +Mm. +Yet,i it's not one of those rooms where, if +No. +you only get a hu yo you're struggling if you've only a got a hundred. +Yeah. +Erm, what I'm, I've just arranged somebody to redo our speaker syste our original system with tannoys, we blew our tannoys speakers, and I didn't bother getting them replaced because we were going for a rock crowd so we just used Bernie and Nigel +Mm. +P A there. +Yeah. +What I've got, is I've got four of these directional speakers, there's two up and two on here and then two big bass ones which sit on a floor back there. +And, so it's very loud on the dance floor but you can actually talk out, out here. +Mm. +Which I thought we need to redo if we're gonna get private bookings. +Yeah. +Cos the one thing you always get when you've got a mixture of people, I mean, all thi this needs recovering basically as well. +Yeah. +But I mean, that's not a big job it's just +No. +re relinoing it basically. +Oh yeah. +Oh yeah. +Filling the smoke +Smoke machine +up. +Yeah, you got a smoke machine we, we, we would set in little, in a hole in the back. +And all of these air conditioning valves are on? +Yeah. +Mm. +Actually I'm having the,a th I mean I can get, I'm getting our system back in operation. +It, it was gonna cost me a thousand but I've done a deal with a guy who'd got stuck with some in Manchester so it's gonna cost me five hundred which I'm getting done this Friday. +Erm to put a satellite system, to put a satellite in would be three hundred quid in total. +Yeah. +So I mean it's that's only one that's only one good'un, good night using it innit, a year? +Pays for that. +Yo you're light, the er ceiling could you not get away with covering the, get the lights a colour blue? +And er and you know, tidying up ceiling obviously +Right. +I mean, there's lots of bits and pieces you need for a +I mean, if you just cover all the areas that were really +Yeah. +bad, er I reckon, I says, well what do you think yourself in, in, in +Well the, the big the single biggest cost is, is what we do with this a carpet area. +Mm. +That's our single biggest cost, cos as I say, I had three quotes in total, and they were all sort of between thirteen and twenty three. +Yeah. +Thousand. +Yeah. +But that's, having said that, that's to carpet all this area +Yeah. +that back area I've just taken you through, that, the staircase, and the corridors out there. +I mean, that's the carpet ev I just said like I wanted a quote to carpet +Mm. +everywhere. +Erm what we were doing is,i what it was for, was for, for prospective buyers, they wanted erm a justification for +Yeah. +Yeah. +the money they were gonna spend. +I mean, they wouldn't have spent that money. +But, they wanted written quotes for a justification more or less. +Do you think it's better being like this? +Looking there, or is it better sort of, clearing your floor and get a wider dancing space and +Well it's quite, it's a reasonable size +I know it's a fair size, but +It's a fair size dancing +you know +space actually, I mean, you get about a hundred people on here, it's, it's, it's alright. +In fact the, in fact it's,i at times it's too big. +That's, my one, I don't know how you'd ever get over it, but that's my one criticism of the thing is that sometimes when you walk in it's the first thing that hits you and unless people are dancing it creates a cold atmosphere. +Yeah. +Erm +I mean, if you've got your group on there's nothing better than having your floor there and are dancing on the floor at, at, in front of the group kind of thing like +Yeah, but I mean a a if you have any +anything like a, a, a group takes all of this. +Yeah. +If you have a +That's right. +a main group up, you know +Yeah. +you're struggling to get +But then if you did this floor space like +Yeah. +we said +Oh yeah. +Yeah. +I mean, I, I actually don't think you need carpet on I mean I, I don't +Oh no. +think, I don't think you need any of this carpet, to be honest. +black , would that look nice? +Black carpet. +I dunno. +Ah, cos Peter was saying, I dunno, I dunno what the black . +Don't have to be black , you just want, you want something that er I don't know really, you'd have to think about it wouldn't you? +Mm. +Yeah. +Oh yeah. +Could do with probably somebody who knows what they're doing on it. +You want the carpet area full of seating +Actually one thing Barry +Yeah. +don't you? +That's right. +Give it a bit of warmth when they're sitting right +Yeah. +down. +the area. +That's one thing Ben said though, which was quite useful, he said get some people down pick their brains. +Mm. +You know, let them come down and give a quote +Mm. +for whatever you're looking at +Mm. +and pick what they thought, was the best thing you could do, and then don't, don't tell you but get them made. +Yeah. +You know, and like +That's right. +I say it, these guys are working on this all the time. +I mean, on a normal night it's, the raised areas fill up with people seated. +Yeah. +This area's er, everybody's stood around. +Yeah. +I mean,i i it's a while before these chairs are,the they're always the last ones these to sit +Yeah. +down cos you're in the middle of the thoroughfare. +You know,i i you need to be full to fill up that area because well, you know yourself, people like to stand around the bar don't they? +Mm. +Oh! +That's right, yeah. +So, I mean, all you do is get, I mean this and this has been down well it's, obviously it's been down since it opened, now I can't remember when Brewer actually opened +Mm. +but it must be seven years ago. +If we've been +Nearly seven or eight year ago weren't +Yeah. +it? +I mean we've been in three. +Yeah, it'll be about eight, eight year ago. +It was closed for a +I wonder +year. +I wonder how ma had to to town, I come down from across the town. +I don't know . +It's getting the steam roller up that worries me. +Well you +the time after don't it? +Mm. +Well, I mean, I don't know how to find the other one out. +You only have to paint the dance floor on then don't you? +I wonder how much it would cost the town, like? +I know it sounds silly, but I say, the silly things like that are the ones that sometimes are the +Mm. +ones that are took seriously. +But like you say, the floor can stand it and there's nice little corner or whatever int there? +I don't know. +That was rather a cheekiest thing to do. +Mm. +I mean, a er a, you see ou a good, a good looking, hard wearing wo lino +Yeah. +might not +Yeah. +go amiss. +Cos then you can just, just mop it down, brush it or whatever, you don't even +Yeah. +need to bother vacuuming, which takes time, is a pain in the neck and you can never get a vacuum that's any good anyway. +And plugs. +they might look er you know they look cheapy or +No. +sort of +But you +lino being +No, they do, but you can get good ones now can't you? +Ah yeah! +I mean, you can get ones that look like I just wonder whether you can get ones that look like sort of parquet floors almost? +I've seen these industrial companies and he said look, have you got any er of your older stuff +What's that? +Because Polly's got a it was at the front of the bar, it's quite a heavy duty thing int it that? +Mm. +It'll take fag burns and, you want something that's not gonna that's like, that's got li like that crystaley stuff +Mm. +innit? +And, and it's non-slip +Yeah, that's er, that's good. +That's the stuff +Mm. +you +It's a non-slip stuff. +want, but I would have thought that'll be quite dear won't it? +You know, that kind with all the grit +Yeah I know. +I like that. +in it . +I wonder if you went to the industrial companies, and said look, have you got a a, a, a big lot of something and +Yeah, well that'll be alright. +You know. +Well do,ja er, I mean er is it Marnes do that floor covering? +Yeah but that was for carpets, was it,i is, is, is that, do they do the floor coverings there? +Yeah. +Course it's still +Or is it Storeys or +Yeah. +Yeah, they do the floor covering. +Find out. +Yes. +I think we'll just work out +I've never been to that have you? +That, that'll be that and a, and a lick of paint +Yeah. +and then you're, you're half way there. +Th +Yeah. +Oh yeah. +Yo your main job is to see th +I mean +see the bar open and +th yeah. +I mean,th the, the other thing is we need, we need it we need it recovered in something that's but I mean that's not a massive job, and we, and we, and I want the toilet trough that sort of thing. +Yeah, all that sort of thing. +What's the ladies like? +The ladies are alright. +Yeah, they're alright. +Don't need, I mean if we get somebody in to do that, we'd have somebody in do little bits of repairs here and there, but generally it's alright. +I'll show you . +See, there's a tremendous amount of wasted space there! +Mm. +And Jean's corridor. +Jean's corridor. +I resume, see if the places are . +It, and we had ninety on it on Saturday. +Bus dri bus driver nearly we nearly hit the the thing nearly keeled over cos he didn't realize how many he'd got upstairs and he went round the bend and it started to go. +And then cos you're not supposed to stand up upstairs . +See the crack int bog. +Yeah. +I think it's got a bit damaged on Saturday, then he put him back +Supposed to lift base. +But er generally needs +Oh I know. +Yeah. +Aye. +The trouble is, toilets are toilets and they don't and they +Oh aye. +get damaged, I mean, you just have to keep bloody working on them, I +That's nice, in the toilet. +Yeah, take them in. +That's right mate. +As I say, it needs cleaning up of graffiti and a little bit of adjustment and +Yeah. +This is the problem, er,le +Yeah. +leaking roof. +Cos these bloody tiles are expensive! +Yeah. +They keep getting damaged and collapsing, and of course, it's part of the fire protection as well , so +You've got to be er +Yo they've got, you know,yo you're not supposed to have damaged ones and we, you know, for an inspection we have to get th we'd have to, oh +Yeah. +change all these. +Well what about, what, what who's responsible? +Is it, John is? +John is. +Yeah, but I mean you know, at the moment we've not been pushing anything till +No. +I mean, everything's sorted out, then I will. +Yeah. +I think what it probably needs, is just a guard round the top ventilation things +Yeah. +cos a they're open and the wind drives under it. +Well it and shut up to there with and that you can +Ah yeah. +try them holes +Yeah. +in there +Yeah. +with special sealer. +But I mean +That's right. +That's right. +That's what I mean, and we'll be alright. +See this is er that goes along here. +. But what I wanna do is trough this and bury these pipes. +Yeah. +Cos er, you just get damage all the time in here. +And I got Tony coming to do these now. +Yeah. +Put these under there. +Somebody's pulled the sink off. +Mind you if you do that your only problem then is your roof int you? +Yeah. +You just +Yeah. +You just put a lick of paint again,wo your tiling's awful int it? +Yeah. +But +I mean +Yeah. +It's all there. +Well if you in you can see the diff I mean, you've got what seven urinals there? +But if you troughed all in an L +Yeah. +I mean you'd take could take twenty guys stood there. +I mean,damage is being done, say you have got seven guys there stood, what's +Mm. +the other one doing, I think can, can pull +Yeah. +this off. +Yeah. +I know. +So they've nothing better to do. +You got them on trough, then they're saying alright we'll do it somewhere else. +Yeah. +Then the longer you got them in here they're likely +That's right. +to +That's right. +There's enough here for a trough . +Oh aye. +Well, I dunno, it's go it's got, I was showing th I was showing the licensing people round erm the inspection of, Jean we Jean wasn't here, we were looking round and fire brigade and that were there and inspection, we turned round and all written across is Jean is a fucking fat cow! +Alright ! +I mean, I mean you tried not to laugh +we tried desperately to avoid looking at her,right . +And the environmental health guy there and all. +Well they probably thought you wrote it +Yeah ! +Looks like they're not getting on. +This was a good idea of Johnny's which they did, which did before was this corridor, these lights up here that one when it's re-doing, but there's one, two, three, four, five, six and they framed a large advertising poster. +Mm. +Mm. +And so, like hundred quid a year +Yeah. +for +Yeah! +For putting it +It could be a +out. +I mean it's six hundred quid for doing nothing innit? +That's right. +Six is it? +Oh. +Erm, you know er, I can't remember who they are, but it wasn't clientele, but I mean we could, you know we could +Yeah. +look around for.. the relevant er +That's right. +And how much of this stuff's down? +I mean, this'll have been down I, oh, won't be able to get as much wear +Yeah. +This is, this is, this is +original as far as I know. +Did you lay that yourself? +Yeah. +A little bit +Do they just seem to stick on tap or is it a row? +No, no, no this is a row. +A row. +Yeah. +The stuff that's that's the stuff you want. +This is, it is not the similar stuff like we've got in the kitchen upstairs? +No. +No. +That rug stuff. +It is er, it's er +Mm. +a actually it is like that stuff. +But it's different. +It wasn't here was it? +Same +No. +sort of thing. +No. +Maybe that's the type of thing you want on the floor. +I reckon that is. +That is it. +In there. +Make, do some more er extend the er er er er parquet flooring area to give you more dance room. +An and, and round the other areas which +Up here. +and keep the carpet on the high seating areas. +Oh aye. +Yeah. +I think it's better up there. +Oh yeah. +Aye, but it wouldn't cost very much to carpet those two areas. +No. +I think you do, you know, do something +Yeah. +Yeah. +a little bit better, but I mean +but it, you just need something that's ro that's hardwearing and +And practical really, isn't it? +you know. +As I say, people aren't going in in there to look at, oh! what a pretty carpet you've got. +No. +Oh no! +As long as it's, as long as it, it's warm +Well if you remember most of the time the lights are off. +Yeah. +It's only to create an impression when you're doing it in the day time. +Yeah. +That's right. +I mean, I don't know whether you've thought any more about that idea that Colin had, but, I mean, I don't know,yo cos you haven't said you do, you haven't really looked round it. +No, that's right, you know, the, the, the only thing we've, we've actually gonna trying to get that into a the bar is er segregate +Perhaps er Jean's left actually . +This is this was the, the cloakroom and what we were what we were intending doing originally +is turn it into an office. +Mm. +I mean, we haven't done so far but we, that's what but, this is stuff we got about hundred +Oh yeah. +and fifty quid for two massive rolls like this. +Mm. +Well that's, well that's what not ba bad is it for those int +Mm. +it? +Yeah. +I mean that's what Jean's talking about getting. +Mm. +That's alright int it? +Oh to but that will fit is a bit +Well er +bit more thickness than I hoped, er but if it's sat on top of there and on top of what's on. +On top of what's on? +Right. +I don't know whether they were actually sitting right where the bevel or whatever. +I know this sort of stuff is we had similar to when I worked in the shop er, used to, he had three quarters of this, guy come round in a van or whatever, back of a van +Yeah. +and he laid it himself. +Mm. +and by the entrance and whatever er +I think you'd have to get a professional carpet +So +layer just, just to make certain. +Summat like that really, is, is obviously +Yeah. +And it's just stuck on int it? +Yeah. +I mean i er I, I spent as I say +spent the best part of the year working in here, sort of nine to five type thing and it's mind walking down that bottom end without any ar without any natural light. +Mm. +Mm. +That little office, you know, so I said to Jean, you know, well let's turn this into an office +Yeah. +basically. +Erm +No I can did you have a cloakroom then? +Or did you +No. +I mean we u when we, when we use,whe the, the rave used this as a cloakroom. +Erm but I mean there are, there are other areas you can use. +Mm. +And you can use you could use past that erm cos that's the other thing I haven't shown you, is, is this is all ours as well down the bottom end. +Erm and that's the other thing about having having, sort of, a lot of people thinking it having, having it as a sort of rock club at night they, they regard it as their own, sort of thing +Oh right. +I mean, so when we do have to do redecoration we just gotta let the volunteers in. +Yeah. +Left a, a crate of Pils for them and carry on painting everything. +Right this is er that's the snooker next door +Next door. +Yeah. +It's alright, I'll knock it off. +You don't need to knock, connect it through. +That's the garden sign which blew off in the gales before Christmas and landed on Uri 's car. +Erm +What you didn't do it? +Yes ! +That's Breakers in there is it? +That's Breakers in there. +Erm +Is this an entrance as well? +It can be. +Down the bottom that just goes out to the bottom and there's a back +Yeah. +erm +Yeah. +I see that there. +And it's got a sign over the +Yeah. +back with a light if you +Yeah, I've seen that, yeah. +want it, cos we were you know, we were thinking i we wanted to leave ourselves that option. +I mean, we were thinking about like the Sunday markets and things. +Yeah. +You know, utilizing, except it's a long drag for people, but, but, you +Mm. +know, anyway. +Cleaner's room two dressing rooms, and a toilet. +I mean, they're dressing rooms or offices or whatever you want basically, I mean +What about there? +Ye er that's er, this is just a cleaner's, cleaner's cum store room, you know, the usual +Mm. +crap. +Erm I don't know whether these are open. +I'll give you a key. +Keep them all locked. +You'll find +Er +This is for changing rooms? +So this is a +Yeah. +there casual act. +I mean we, cos we've +Sort of. +not been putting on any loud music recently I've not had, I'll stretch it out a little bit, but erm you know, we had a heater in here and er, record player and er ra er radio and that. +Yeah. +I mean, it's a got extra padding on. +Well that's right, I mean, you know, it, it when, when it was erm oh what's that cook who had +Found the place +er tt he's now got that place in Lancaster, the er what was the Trade and Labour club in Lancaster. +Oh! +Ton Peter ? +Yeah, Peter , when he had it, he had er double bed in there with bolts on the inside of the door. +Did he? +Yeah. +Is he? +People have often called +They say there's +Cos Caesars are in there now. +Oh are they? +Yeah. +Oh! +Doesn't +Yeah. +surprise me. +You'll be getting what is it in, they can't open now they've lost the er, they've lost some of er, they've lost some sort of . +Yeah I know, but it's, it's, it's summat +Aye. +Right. +So that's round it +So the easiest thing really is obviously is if I get the thing sorted out and then, turn it +Yep. +around and er we've had a word with Elliel this morning. +Mm. +Yeah. +Erm they they're quite happy with with all that sort of stuff. +Yeah. +They're gonna come up are you free on Fri Thursday afternoon at four o'clock? +Thursday's a busy day for us really. +Five o'clock's fine, but four o'clock's probably . +But I,th th they're actually supposed to get Friday rush +Mm. +and then you really should with the staff we've +Yeah. +got. +So +Er +, cos unless we're going to get it straight, but it just all comes in like this time of year, and just comes and let us in. +I mean +What so, so ba as la as towards five o'clock as, as possible. +If we got here, if we got if we got to fa wherever you wanted to meet, where do you want to meet? +Well I'd rather, I'd +Come down to us. +I'd rather ma come down to you to be honest. +Well if you come down to us so +Cos then Mike ought to see your operation as +Yeah. +well you see, so +If you bring him down about +Yeah. +you know, half four to five +Half four. +we'll be +You'll get the idea +we'll be getting on top +Alright. +then, you know. +Okay. +We're usually done by five, you know, so there's +Yeah. +no problem +Make by five +Yeah. +o'clock. +Yeah. +Five o'clock. +Yeah. +I think the biggest thing really is just like they say, is how much you can get that done for and, get the roofing done, that's gotta be done. +Yeah. +Er +Yeah. +some paper them toilets cos er, I'm, you know, I say, from our our, both side is something that's er I mean, everybody's looking purely from and return sales. +All you're looking at is for an income , an income from it and er I reckon can do very well. +What do you, what you think of that bar area Barry? +Do you think it could be inclined to be +Er, the top one? +as a drinking area +Yeah. +U yeah, I mean I +during the day? +yeah, well it was it was what I wanted to, it was what I wanted to, it was wanted to do initially, I mean, but then you have like so many ideas that +Yeah. +you know, you can't do them all in that sense, but if you had somebody somebody like Colin might be able to +Cos you only need, you only need him to drag sort of fifteen, twenty people in initially +And five, ten of them +And they'll all, they'll all be drinkers. +Yeah. +But I mean sa ta so there's an at little atmosphere there anyway +Yeah. +erm and then you can, I mean, well it gives you the opportunity to, you know bang in a bloody jazz band or whatever you wanna do in there somewhere +Yeah. +and, and build it up like that. +As you said, they haven't actually, you know, it'd be if you could get some sort of portable +Screening. +screen that'd just shut it off. +Mm. +So people don't feel as though they're sat in a wide ai wide open +No, I know, yeah. +Yeah, that's right. +you know. +Erm +Well you ca you ca you can get that. +You can get, you can do something +But, yeah +can't you? +Yeah. +Like you say, if you get your satellite T V in there +Yeah. +you know, you can +Yeah. +just make it a cosy little bar where you can +Yeah. +That's right. +It won't cost any to give it a go would it? +No. +If Colin's if Colin's up for it, it wouldn't at all. +I mean, it needs to perhaps perhaps they can do something for the first couple +Oh yeah, need some sort of er +Yeah. +idea to get it going and get it off the ground even if you you put your beer on at, well I just thought of couple Boddingtons put their they're they're gonna put their, they're gonna put there's at a pound a pint. +Mm. +You know, just to attract some people, you know, approach the brewery, say look what about a few keg? +And if you get two or three keg put that money into free stock you know. +Yeah. +Say you +Cleaner's not, the cleaner's not done behind here yet. +If you open it up, if you do get it open, and advertise it at Boddingtons a pound a pint, get them straight to come in. +You're not making a fortune at first, but once you get it going +Mm. +You said about traditional +The only other thing is the . +Depends where your money is really. +Whe whe where's your cellar? +Right underneath. +Right at the bottom. +Yeah, but if, if you +How big's your fire exit, entrance? +the fire exit +You could put it behind, you could feed it through the wall behind to where that +Yeah. +spacious room is where all your chairs are couldn't you? +Yeah. +We probably could, yeah. +Th well, it's no, it's not quite the back. +how would you get in there? +Yeah, that's the, that's the thing I was +Well, it's got, it's a bit dry this. +I know. +It's a bloody, yeah. +You can still . +It's fucking ridiculous! +Erm cos you'd tell the brewery wouldn't you? +The only other thing to do is, is do what er er, we did at one time and just get a bright beer and open it up and er, and then pull it. +And have it. +I know. +Now there's a thought. +It er, you'd have problem with er +But would you? +Depends tha I don't know what sort of draw you can put on that pump here. +They're getting smart. +But I wanna do what the Three Miners do in Lancaster don't they? +That's that er that's a traditional beer innit? +Yeah. +That's right, yeah. +they gotta but he's knocking it straight +Yeah. +down aren't they? +It's just getting it up here. +Yeah! +Yeah ! +Yeah, very strong lad this. +You might have to do it later. +Can I look at the telly? +Yeah, course you can. +I was gonna +It's in here. +suggest that. +Up here and then get . +Oh, oh that's my order for Thursday. +Oh right. +Have you got line cleaner? +Yeah? +Mm. +Yeah? +That's put a . +A fair, int it doing? +The bar, the bar, on the bar. +The bar's there, I mean I was thinking you had your stool, painted that white on +Yeah. +or a red a deep +Oh yeah. +sort of red behind the bar, maybe get a couple more like that. +Yeah, a lick of paint and, and +Oh yeah. +and, and that, you know and you can +And then we'll fill the shelves up. +That's right. +All, all, one thing we haven't discussed is, is these ar these arrears int it, that we've got? +This, the rates +Yeah. +is the biggest one int it? +Right. +Right. +Now, I don't know if it's worth asking +Well I could +council to, if you could like lump it with the next year 's. +El e Elliel, Elliel said that er they could probably twist the council's arm +What's that for Barry? +Well, this, you know we're on about this money +Yes. +well, there is, there is ba bad debts, you know which er +Yeah. +I don't know if I've got them here. +How much is that for? +Well it was er it was about +Twenty two. +here we are, that's it er it's rent which we we're gonna clear +Mm. +there's twelve for rates, and the twelve and, other two's ours which we're we +Yeah. +can, we can stand on that. +Mm. +You've got, you've got like water rate, twelve hundred, er, rates, twelve but er, what we could try to do is approach them and see if we can lump it in with this year and that, obviously have to pay higher +I mean, some of it is is the next two month anyway erm +Yeah. +But we we'd usually have no +but +rents, er we've no er we've lease to pay back have we or owt like that? +Oh and the other the other thing is, is, is by asking Fred for +To pay. +That's right. +But even so, then ask Fred on the long term would be ideal. +Er, the biggest thing is for us is is making payable for you. +Yeah. +I mean +At first +we've not gone any further with this Fre with Fred because +No. +we're just leaving it so we sort ourselves out first on, on how +Yes. +we feel happy with it and +Yeah. +and whe how, how, whether you want Fred involved in, in what way. +Well it's really that's needed be here, you know, if we ca +Yeah. +if we can +And +if we can resolve it with cos then you're getting summat on a different style of thinking to that, you know, I know Fred doesn't wanna be involved but then you've always got somebody, well we'll have to go and see Fred first. +Mm. +And, and I don't know. +Yeah, you could work it +Go see Fred and he's probably got a few more pounds ready available than +Yeah. +than we have. +Oh yeah. +You know, that's the er +That's right. +bit difficult. +Yeah. +And that's your er, cos er personally +Oh, I've got the +I'll say that it's not. +accounts in various off-shore islands and, and +Yeah. +black bin liners in his back garden . +If we can sort him out with rates and, I don't know. +If he can o if we can offset, if we can use all, if he'll out time type of thing +Mm. +with that +Yeah. +erm the oh er +You've gotta put an offer in and pay it so much a month haven't you or something and, and, and get it paid off over a period of time? +And then you can do it without Fred and, really, with Fred is, is at the end of day you could pro proof pay load could go back to yourself and I, I E and ourselves, but by having him that other cut you're gonna be saying well it's all a bit more than your share. +I mean, from my point of view I don't think he's ever +I don't think Fred'd be looking for anything as a return. +No. +Not in the shor +I'd be quite happy to come +not in the short term. +Not in the short term. +you get tucked into it, and obviously there we'll keep it sort of low profile. +But giving it a good clean out and getting +Mm. +it dus painted behind the things whatever, come on Sunday or whatever and just say that you might +In return, yeah. +Just take a +quite keen just to sort of get +Mm. +mucked into it +Mm. +just to save money +See if you can get +but as long as, I say, the biggest thing from my point er is not to so lose money if you can do from where we're going. +No. +And use the fifteen grand to its best image in the way that you feel then you can turn round and run a club so it can get people in. +Mm. +And we can get the lighting in. +Because that's what your best thing is +Mm. +you've got the ideas and th the motions. +Mm. +And for yourself, and what we don't wanna do is like I say, is spend money that is just gonna disappear and say shit! +We haven't really improved the pub's barrelage if goes away. +No. +I mean,th the other aspect of the, of the fif the other aspect of the, the brewery and me that I was talking about, er I'm thinking about is that we we could do with you know, okay those,th those figures are I mean, unless they're really realistic it's gonna be you know, six months or so +Mm. +before we start getting up to the kind of figures where we can actually see a you know +Yeah. +a profit each week +Mm. +a a, a, reasonably substantial profit, I mean +That's right, yeah. +so, with the best will in the world it's going to be six months so let's so we need a little of breathing space +Yeah. +on that six months. +Now er, er obviously if, if we can, if we can get the money off the brewery cos you know, if we can get a little bit more +That's right, yes. +than we actually need to spend that that +Yeah. +enables us to you know, have that breathing space erm so we can start +Well what, what we can, you know I say, he's offering us this fifteen unsecured if we can, mind you +Yeah. +I don't know if we can squeeze any more or what +I reckon +but, but, you know if say well look, you know, we could do with twenty five and he turns round and he might say well you know,yo he might say no +Mm. +but we know we've got fifteen just to get us +Yeah. +going. +Yeah. +Yeah. +Yeah. +What he said then is look, you know hey he's, all you're saying really +is ah, if your barrelage is there then what we do is buy five or six barrels from Morecambe Bay Wines. +Yeah. +You can soon get rid of those. +You can say Morecambe Bay Wines and buy all his +Mm. +cos what I, I just said to him I said look, I says a er sometimes I says it's an awkward time drop for us. +Says well we'll get it delivered here you know, only without +Yeah well that's +invoice. +That's what we wanted innit? +Well what we do, what we use +What we do is buy it barrelled and and +Yeah. +get out be +Yeah. +Morecambe Bay License form. +Barrel or keg. +Because we ca we can live on thirty pound on barrel can't we? +I think we can do. +I'd like you to just purely myself, I'm not saying I'm right and you're not right and people like +Mm. +my o my own personal view is if we just pay the fifteen and it's sort of off in there straight away and then spend but not to sort of say, well you can spend it and update it can't you? +But spend what we feel is gonna make the club +Mm. +better image like you say +Mm. +somebody comes to look at it just for a view I mean, I say, I, I'm quite happy coming like I said th if you motion behind there, make the bar presentable we'll fill it out with stock then that'll look better +Yeah. +but if we do display +Put more stock in. +we've got a load +Yeah. +of tent cards and display things +Yeah. +that could decorate that. +Yeah. +You know, and we'll do it ourselves, I say I mean, what you want Barry is like wanna keep it low profile. +Mm. +But we've both got time to sort, I say, somebody, we'd enjoy doing it. +Because we, we, we either do it ourselves and spend +Before the cricket season. +Yeah. +Yeah. +I mean, America are getting a private cup for here. +I mean, if you just emulsion +Yeah. +that, the red bits, into red and got the, so I say, nice sort of tent cards and and got a few firms, I mean firms and come on in and do your display you know +Yeah. +and your promotions and +Yeah. +That's something we will, we will be able to do is, you know, is +Yeah. +I mean things like what I want on desperately quickly is Rebel Yell cos they're spending a fortune in the rock, well all our punters all know it. +I mean you go down in London it's the it's just like Rebel Yell everywhere, but it's all heavy rock so +Yeah. +I mean it's just perfect for that, but I know they do a display unit and things like +Yeah. +that. +But I mean, I have to go +Well that's all it wants. +through, I have to go through Michelin to get that. +Yeah well we'll, you won't know, you'll be . +You might do. +No, no, I'll be +We +That's what, I mean according to Tracey on +You could of told me Tracey's on. +Yeah, that bitch! +Didn't mention . +He said . +It was er one bottle free, buy two and get a bottle free and, plus display unit you see +Yeah. +and I said well I want it on but he said you'll have to go for this. +Oh course. +Said alright, so I filled out a bloody form and I went to Michelins, they knew nothing about it and they hadn't got it displayed either ! +Yeah. +And this was like three weeks later, it wasn't +Mm. +you know cos I said +Oh yeah. +I wanted to begin with that week. +But that mean, I mean that's +Yeah. +examples handfuls of it, you know. +Oh yes, you could pay for that . +I think we should be able to get some proper er box coolers in here off the +Mhm mm. +you know these, these er lift down ones you know +Mm mm. +you can put all your cans in and +Mm. +get, you know, get them in and say and say look yo well you're gonna save money on the pints well give us four box coolers for a year and you +Mm. +know which style I mean? +Mm. +Yeah. +Yeah I know. +The big ones. +Do all wine coolers +Yeah. +as well don't +Yeah. +they? +Don't do a lot of wine you know +No but if you, only for your functions and +Yeah. +Well true. +That's kind of true, yeah. +I mean, we went through we went through nearly a case of one point fives at Mary's party. +Leibfraumilch. +I mean, it, we had +I mean I reckon +we had to +or do you want to +Yeah. +how do you functions +Nine, eight er nine er one point fives. +Your shoe's just fallen off Barry ! +Yeah I know . +I didn't think he was get there ! +Er +Get a few Pils' cabinets +You could ge +off them. +It's, it's great! +Yeah I know. +The staff can't wander off you see on a night. +Can't sneak off at back cos they +Oh yeah. +move! +I know. +They're stood here like this ! +They could do your function thing. +Have your function here and get a bottle of champagne free kind of thing, or whatever your, with your parties. +Something, I mean, we can work that in the price or whatever +Yeah. +you know. +I mean, other thing we really need to all, er you see, when I was working at it, and when we were doing it all the time +Yeah. +er you were using your own contacts +Well that's right. +like +Yeah. +Yeah. +you know mate of mine had got his son at bloody public and wants one of these posh public school type all night parties, so we had one of those, and, you know and er +I say, like I say I just just red er paint summat like, these are white these and just go down on the red and just up there and just up here, just get your displays +Yeah. +and your bar'll look ten times better. +Yeah. +I tell, I mean ju okay, forgetting the carpet at the moment it's, it'll cost, it'll cost about a grand to get the toilets all done up +Yeah. +three hundred quid for satellite in erm I need these shutters repairing cos they're +Yeah. +knackered! +And, and odds +You need it all. +and sods and I, I, I'd like to buy a couple of lighting effects, but I mean +Yeah. +you're only talking about a co you know, a few hundred quid for that. +Let's just choose, I know you can't change +There is +what the there +But as I say +No you can't +you know, +Yeah. +get, get a +just er +cooler +the basis of this fifteen grand, is using the fifteen grand but like we can see you using that +I'd like to look at shuttering that area if we are gonna do your +Yeah. +Yeah. +I will, well +But we can't +I, I, I reckon +it +that could pay for itself if Colin got in so you'll do that one get Colin to pay for it. +Colin's awa I think he's, he's taking kids away for camping and things all next week but I'll, I'll try +You need +I can say to him that about it. +yo for a start you need those two,th these end two you need bli you need blinds on because you can't utilize the screen in the summer without these I mean we got, we got blinds for all those windows, I mean +Mm. +they're all, all they are are they're pho photographic you know, when you have blackouts and er, you know the +Yeah. +they're that kind of mat +Yeah I know what you mean. +white material, they're just white, but they, they a total black out which they use on the rave nights. +I mean, I do I, think the view is quite nice certainly if you got a summer it's +Oh well, yeah. +quite a pleasant evening. +See, my idea originally was that cos it comes back from when I used to go in the in the Blue Anchor in Lancaster after work I mean we had everybody in there! +We had like market traders in there managers of Marks and Spencers and Woolies +Yeah. +and, you know, building societies, insurance companies, and everybody's i the rounds were like twenty five quid a time, but everybody's only drinking halves cos you could never +That's right. +you know, so just half a gui but it, it got that, but once they changed the opening hours do you remember when they brought in six +Yeah. +o'clock? +Yeah. +It destroyed all that. +Yeah. +And then er, they brought it back and then they started doing to quarter to six, but it still wasn't good enough cos you can't, you can't have all these people in suits and briefcases stood outside a pub for quarter of an hour waiting for it open , you know +No. +I mean it wasn't good +That's right. +for their image. +No, no. +So +Suit off. +Oh no they're your +So it like killed that. +But I'm sure there's, I'm sure there's that kind of trade for, you know, a sort of a Bic Biro runner type, you know, that kind of well our age group, you know +Yeah. +the sort of +Well that's it, yeah. +thirty to, thirty to +Yeah. +fifty age group. +That's right. +And, and people want a drink after work and have a chat, cos the +Yeah. +it was a it was all business people and you're talking about +That's right. +you know what it was like, what things were and +Once you can get people in you know, you gotta attract them in, but once you get them in they'll +Yeah. +be,ev oh it's alright +Yeah. +I quite like it. +Got them into this place. +Make it pleasant, you know, and have to do summat you know, just to make it have to get nice mirrors up on wall and +I mean the wine bar +you know +in Lancaster did that happy hour didn't they? +And that got +That's right. +heaving +Yeah. +with business people. +That's what you wanna do. +Like I say, you know put, put your Boddys on at a +I bet that would be really interesting. +pound a pint between +Yeah. +five and seven. +Elliel's our discount because you know they're doing +No. +It was great! +Mm. +I mean the biggest thing really I think my interest in all this to get secure trade from us +Mm. +which we're gonna get and get your salary. +You know, because they're the few main things round here, you're happy, and you can feel that obviously you, you'll be working for something. +Yeah. +I mean, to be honest I've put in like two, two years without any +Oh I know. +Yeah I know. +salary with this place. +I mean I've been doing outside jobs to get, you know, I mean, like doing festivals +and whatever else to get +Yeah. +my money in. +So the +Has an anybody come to you through the +and, you're losing money,, if you're not, if you're not seeing any return you're +No. +you're going through the motions +No. +I mean, God, you know if I've gotta go down to London for three days I'd rather do that cos it's gonna earn me two or three grand. +Well we could set, like you say and no you know, and get it going and you make a salary +and, and then if there's anything left e er, between us, and then that's all well +Yeah. +and good. +Yeah. +We're, we're not wanting a wage out of it or anything, you know +We'll get it to the +Well you'll get it, you'll get it from the turnover won't you? +We we're, we're quite, we're quite pleased, you know, say well let's see if we can get it going and, and make a success out of it. +And also, I mean, if we turn over hundred thousand pound with you in a year you're gonna make some money out of that. +That's right. +Yeah. +You know, so it's +Yeah. +er +Make a grand or summat out of that won't you? +That's it, yeah. +If we're lucky. +If you're lucky . +The only th the only thing is, is th is what we'll do the beer, whether we're gonna have to connect it to the brewery or whether we can get it through ourselves, I don't know. +I would think you're probably gonna have, committed to separate accounts. +Yeah, I'm not too bothered about that. +But as I said +But if it's, if it can be dropped at your place +Well that's it, yeah. +Because I mean er you can always say look, I've got commitments all over the place and actually be +Well I've tol I, I sold them that +Yeah. +I says, I says he's go he can't lose his . +Yeah. +with you, you've gotta get the rest of the stuff. +Yeah. +Yeah. +As long as +See +we can +Well that +it doesn't, it doesn't matter what barrelage you put through it but put, as long as we know that er, the fifteen thou it's gonna be written off at thirty pound a barrel, so the sooner you, you do it, the sooner it's written off. +Yeah. +But also +Good. +it also means we haven't got any, that's an area where we haven't got any repayments. +I'll just have a look round there again Barry. +Yeah okay. +Do you wanna +Can I see the back? +play with those figures again? +Dunno. +Before we get started doing it. +Well yeah, doing the cellar. +Do you wanna have a look in the cellar now? +Oh yeah. +Okay. +gonna have a look round the back is he? +Yeah. +I'm just, I mean I reckon you could, I dunno if you can just pull them in. +Draw them up and we used to do the would be quicker . +Oh ta. +you're gonna be really talking about next week aren't you? +It looks like it. +Yeah if you can. +Definitely. +See not that easy. +No. +I'm just thinking of that exit there. +This, this is good. +I mean if you put that +the nearest one +You mean, it's a fire exit so that's the problem so you're not gonna be able to leave anything in it that would obstruct. +But ah, so this, it's the actual fire exit for here int +Mm. +it? +Yeah. +Mm. +That leads downstairs don't it? +Yeah. +It goes out next to the cellar. +I suppose like you say at nine thirty once the music starts no one 's gonna want to +Oh er, if you put, if you put if you put wrought iron gates gates decorated type of thing round there +Yeah. +and then somebody stands there, two fifty that's what I were thinking, an admission from here. +Mm. +And, and wrought iron it, yeah, you know. +Well wrought iron'd look it'd look quite good for the functions trade as well cos you can get +Yeah. +the artificial plants up it +Mm. +and whatever else +Yeah. +when you do +Get climbing plants +Yeah. +You can get it, it will soon cover +Yeah. +cover it actually. +Yeah. +Yeah. +I mean close that area down. +And that, that would do double job cos that would do the job of your blinds as well wouldn't it? +Yeah. +Yeah. +And then they'll cause the atmosphere rather than +Mm. +big open wide +Mm. +club. +Yeah. +Mm. +Get your wrought, your gates there, or something like that to be +Yeah. +round the back, which entrance would they come in? +They wouldn't come in that end. +Well all you do right, you have gates +Well I mean +then they're open so that at half nine you close them there, or at ten o'clock you close them there and you say when they come through if you're going out that +Yeah. +way or whatever. +Yeah. +I mean I I think you just have to but +It's something that you've gotta be +You'd have to play it by ear I think. +Yes +thinking ahead. +Yeah. +Yeah. +You know, you're thinking well +Let's +at first you could just wrought iron it round and, and just give it that +As you say, if somebody's been in there from bloody five o'clock and wants to stay till eleven +Well that's it. +or twelve, then fine, let them. +I mean I th I wouldn't, I wouldn't mind that +No. +you know, I mean +So you could either come in half eight, half nine or +That's right. +You know +But really, you know +Yeah. +what you do? +At half nine you put someone on the door here to take money, anyone who comes in, whether they come into here or go into there +Mm. +anyone who's been drinking all afternoon if you want to er, wander across +Yeah, I mean, what you, what you'd have to be careful of is, is sooner or later people'll catch on to +Yeah. +coming in at quarter past nine +Yeah. +Yeah. +buying one extra drink and erm getting a you know cheaper than saving theirselves two and a half quid then. +pint they buy, and if they buy five pints +Yeah ! +they can have a three, er er a three pound voucher. +Can you imagine Polly organizing that all! +We're getting complicated aren't we? +Why can't we do it, to me, cost effective. +Torture. +Complicating issues. +I remember at the Uni when we used to give we used to put stamps on people, you know, +Yeah. +for pass outs and that or anything +So does Broadway. +and er I bloody, I said, I said in the end I've, what we ought to do is lop some part of their anatomy off, like a little digit or something then we can prove they've been in +eventually, after about two years when you get this sort of armless, legless cor +Oh oh! +body oh he's a good customer! +We'll let him in for free! +He gets a free, free ticket ! +Well it's like, like a all you want to do is +That's what you get,you just gotta stand or you went downstairs to another bar +Yeah,th the trouble is you're +and got a stamp +you +and they would +you, you're doing it in the same room +Yeah. +aren't you? +That's the . +That is as well. +But I I dunno, I see it's not once you're u actually up here, looking I think it's different when you're up here looking back as when you're over there looking up here. +Yeah. +It's not quite as cold and empty as +If it got going you'd probably use mo another, another half of area, you know +Yeah, yeah, you want +you don't wanna close it off. +But, like you say maybe just just a bit of wrought +Yeah. +ironwork +Yeah. +I think so. +to just +I think you do I think that would look good anyway and +Yeah. +and it would also enable you to quickly and easily do something on the erm on the, on the private functions night to make it look different. +Mm. +I mean, I wouldn't suggest putting +plants up and everything for our normal you know, rock nights, I mean we just have the wrought iron up and whatever, but +I mean, with them sort of then +Yeah. +once you got erm tied into these you can +Oh yeah. +do whatever to the thing. +Yeah. +But it would give you affect. +That's right. +I mean, those are just we just went out and chucked a few fucking trees down. +They're not real then Barry? +No, the trees are the er things tied on to them aren't. +Oh. +But er +Yeah. +I think, it's quite actually, it needs a bit of character. +I mean, that'll cover +Yeah. +if you did that in quite a few places +Yeah. +throughout the room it would cover your cracks and your holes +Ye +and your, your . +I mean, what we initially wanted to do with all this was cover this whole area in, in greenery and have this as a sort of restaurant ta type. +Mm. +I mean, again, it's ideas when you're sat +It's ideas. +planning, before you've actually moved in and get +It is. +Yeah, yeah, that's right. +and get and then, then you start +that's, that's the other thing when there's only two of you involved and you, we were opening for that first sort of eighteen months five, six days a week just keeping on top of a day to day business doesn't allow you to sit back +No, I know that. +and expand it, and whereas, you know, that, that's one area that'd be great with having yo your involvement +Yeah. +that you go in and say well you know +It sounds like this sort of thing +Yeah. +When did you paint all this green? +It was when I was working for Walt Disney, so it'll be two years ago. +Two years +Yeah. +ago. +I was over in Belfast and I came back and it were green. +It was alri it's, it's actually lasted reasonably well considering it hadn't been +Yeah. +for two years. +Yeah. +But again, it was all done, it was all literally done in a weekend. +Yeah. +It was like a virtually an all night blitz job and so bits of it, you know, it wasn't like, totally completed, you know, you've got and as Scouse was doing some of it it was er the paintwork leaves something to be desired in areas . +Something there Barry little bit in there look. +Just coming down a little bit. +They just need brushing back up. +It's got a few you've got the +Not a problem. +roof repaired haven't you? +This +Yeah. +The heating's very efficient as well. +It's very hot gas heating. +Yes. +Erm +They did do it, like you say it was more or less just covering for itself now and then use +Mm. +you build up, up and up don't you? +Yeah. +So +Yes. +Let us have a look at cellar and then we'll, d'ya wanna, and then we'll, +Yeah. +then we can say we've to looked at everything and then we know where you know +Yeah. +Okay. +and then we can er we can start, you know, we can, at least we can say look, we've got fifteen grand coming in and th it . +Yeah. +But we need a full . +Yeah. +I mean, we can, we can start by we I mean we can get people set up for doing things from the first of March can't we? +Yeah. +The little bits and pieces that we talked about. +Well we, well we, we can start if you wanna start with the +Or we can think about doing something about +Yes. +this. +We can start giving it a lick of paint if you wanna start giving it a lick of paint. +You see, now the more you think about it, I mean the more you you don't actually use this +No. +very much. +I mean, you look at it, if everybody was seated in this area that could be seated I mean, you're only talking about bloody +I +thirty people. +I don't think it's too bad actually. +I don't think the carpet's too bad at all really. +Well th there's areas, I mean +Yeah. +tha the licens +Oh yeah. +the licensing people would pull us up on that +Yeah. +if they came. +But maybe, if you could cut it off from there. +That's what I mean, you gotta and then do it, clear it, and then clear all that +Mm. +and just left that area +Clear all that +and they're obviously, they're gonna say +Come right up to the right up to bar really aren't you? +Yeah. +I mean th th er, the other thing psychologically is it's, you know +Blue Rhapsody. +Blue Rhapsody. +If you wanted to cha if you want to change it slightly you've got a problem. +You know I think it, I think it's something that you can say well you know, that'd be one of our objectives +Mm. +once we get it going, but le +Mm. +alright,we we've got +Yeah. +a few bob in the kitty +Right. +let's, or we can go to brewery for another five grand, we'll do the carpet +Mm. +now. +I reckon the first thing really is, is get your salary. +Mm. +Get your salary, that you feel that I'm doing this and I'm getting it right. +Mm. +Is that the right sort of, if our I mean from our objective is to get more sales +Yeah. +right now. +That's right. +That's right. +And we've gotta +That's right. +manipulate people to say well, how do we get them drink more? +And you say like five pound a head when they they come in +How bad's the seating though? +Sit there till +Is it, is it that bad? +It's, it's, if, it needs doing +Oh it needs doing does it? +You know. +If you've got a guy gathered, I'm not saying try but if you got somebody who, who did the job and gathered it in like they would do. +Oh yeah. +Yeah. +Yeah. +But it i +An upholster. +It's a perpetual patching up job at the moment +Yeah. +Yeah. +Because, because it is only patched up, it's +Yeah. +it create more problems o you know cos people stand on it and +Get an upholsterer just to come and tidy it up +Yeah. +and fill in where there's been +Yeah. +some damage done. +Yeah, that's right. +I mean there's +Just, just tart it up really. +There's a bit of structural damage to the support +Yeah. +and things like that, that start the seating going and things. +Right. +Okay. +Oh this this actual stuff anyway we'll go, we're putting that with that is alright to that +Oh yes. +the back's have been +Yeah. +alright. +Oh yeah. +There's a few of them damaged but, but erm I think we've repaired most of them. +You see, we did get it all completely repaired when we moved in, cos it was in a hell of a state from Peter ! +Cos Peter had this place. +Yeah. +That's right. +Well we, we, we know +We knew +about that. +about that. +How? +Did he +Cos we +owe you money? +we gone +Well +and got it actually. +Did you! +Bloody right! +God! +You must be one of the few people +It were quite good cos what we had, we had th the the other partner who was, you know, the other partner is Michael. +He was called, what was he called? +Ken ? +No, no. +No. +No, that's +Yes. +that's John . +But what do you call him? +That erm +I know who you mean, I met him, yeah. +Cos the other guy was a, was a bar manager Duncan or +Mm. +Der summat like that, and his wife had a baby at the same time as Elaine's so she our midwife would come and er, so the she kept in touch really of of what they were because they wanted to, I'll take the place off , they wanted to take it over. +I don't think they was er as bad a +No. +shower of shit +No. +as he were +No. +tended to +No. +be. +But er, in the end they never got the license back. +Because what they did try and do is buy the catholic club didn't they? +Top of Lancasters. +Next to the +Cos the +Alex. +The Alex. +They tried to get behind there, the catholic +Yeah. +club. +Right. +Then they got, they didn't get it past. +Mm. +But er he actually owed +Yeah, that used to be +about five grand at one stage and got it down to three and half, and then he got to six hundred and eighty and they went to court +and then they got +He paid it. +Paid it through the court. +Well that was remarkably +Lucky. +lucky. +Yeah I know. +He didn't half go for a lot again. +Yes we did seem to be quite lucky to keep . +Yeah. +But I, I, I'm amazed that breweries keep lending him money! +I know. +I mean, it's unbelievable, you know th er, he's done so many breweries and yet why they don't talk to wo well I mean they must talk to one another. +Because you get people like Ben who's giving his money he doesn't really give a toss! +He don't give a toss. +Mm. +As long as he's got an installation going in and if it +Yeah. +if it gets written off or +Gets bigger. +or someone has to take a, a bi a co company has to take a big lot off. +It's par for the course really. +Mm. +Well, you know. +Dreadful innit? +Well he's got that much money to burn Barry that's what it is. +Mm. +You've gotta burn to, to cover all they've just laid three hundred and thirty management staff off management, not dray lads, not brewery lads. +Yeah. +Three hundred and thirty managers where +I think it's your, that's your T V thing is it? +Yeah. +T V, video projection. +How do you work that thing? +How do you work that thing? +From behind there. +And where's it come there? +That one. +That just puts on +At the moment we use +Rock videos. +Yeah. +I mean, Mark's got some great stuff of the sixties er er er, ex, ex movies of the so er trailers of ex movies, you know +Yeah. +sizzling, sexual and all these sort of and,wha what was really outrageous in the sixties looks so tame, but +Yeah. +it's on in black and white and fifties, it looks quite good fun. +Well that on a Thursday +It's +night could be a sixties night then. +I mean when we get, when +A fifties night even, you know. +when you get tho when you get the half the er when you get sort of well like the scooterist dos and th the DJs bring it up, I mean they bring in a hard core +You'll have to try and change the old fash +and things. +And and and quite amazing +watching Jean +Yes. +picking up +Yeah. +bottles on the night and bonking going on ! +Was Alistair ringing you yesterday? +Me? +Well he rang Peter. +Oh God! +Well he must have been trying . +and they told me it was , very, very urgent! +So I said, oh! +Well, come and speak to him. +But, so I went, and he said oh! +Barry's dad's been on the phone he wants to you to urgently book a bus so he co +Will you see if that says, that sort, yeah it is. +I'll put that on. +I think it is, isn't it? +Yeah. +But he does +Yeah, you just bend them over. +That's it. +It's, they're not as easy to bend as you think. +Got a screwdriver round here. +Do you want me to hold them up for you? +And this blasted , then we'll get start. +You know what Colin does and whatnot. +Right. +You want me to see if I can find Mick don't you? +Mick who?. +Mick. +Actually, I had a think last night, I'll tell you who else you want to get hold of. +Your friend who's the signwriter. +Mm. +Don't +Yeah. +you? +Harvey. +Yeah. +I hadn't thought of that. +Lives near the factory somewhere. +Might be in on Friday. +Doubt it. +Why? +It's Saturday it was it's not bloody arrangement. +Oh no! +I meant I meant he lives somewhere near the factory. +I think Scouse knows where he lives. +Cos sometimes you see him a lot, and then he has a spell of not coming in don't +Yeah. +he? +That's right. +Mm. +They keep sending, they keep changing my passport! +Well they do, don't they? +Well I'll have changed one next week. +What's wrong with that brush? +It's broken. +It's broken. +Mm. +What i what's other end? +Has other end already been used? +Looks like, looks like sawing off and redoing +Ah! +it. +Need to get a new brush. +I think that's a point . +Just get a a new stick for the +That's enough. +Just go in bin. +I just want to make this phone call for when we lock the door and . +Mm. +I'm going into Lancaster Saturday. +Erm no, but I can leave a message can't I? +To say, you know they er when Barbara must, has got to go back in hospital . +That little Lancaster . +Mm. +Erm, you know she had this cancer seven years ago when she had her breast cancer and, had her breast taken off they've now found it's gone further in seven years she, you know, she was +forgotten all about it, anyway she found a little dent apparently our Laura said that's just as bad as finding lumps. +She just went and said I've got this you know, check up, cos she knew she was going to Christies for her final check up and, they've whizzed her in. +Got to do another operation and remove all the glands from under her arm. +So it's not as though they're gonna get anyone to come . +No. +I mean I I obviously hadn't said that to her. +Oh no! +Obviously. +But er she said she'd been feeling a bit rough recently. +But she never suspecting it was, you know, when they'd been alright for seven years you +you think you're alright don't you? +So she's, going in today. +Erm so I'm gonna go in this afternoon to see her. +See if they've taken any . +And I hope . +I hope she does. +Mm. +You know,. +Yeah. +Anything in it? +Have you seen it? +Yes. +Well they would . +Oh! +A bit +You know like you being all pathetic. +No. +Well, a bit I intend carrying on as the parliamentary candidate and somebody had obviously asked Dave why it is something has nothing whatsoever to do with the constituency. +That was last time's agent. +And he said, oh well it's probably being discussed at the next meeting. +Well he's under a lot or else he won't. +Still he won't come if he thinks there's any messing about. +I mean,i it would be zilch for the Labour Party to try and swap candidates now. +You know it would be just stupid wouldn't it? +Yeah. +Mm. +What would they achieve? +Well that's right. +I mean I don't know Dave 's just not That's stupid! +Why make any comment whatsoever? +Yeah. +Why not just keep quiet? +So, you know cos it just says all candidates receiving . +I mean Labour can't win either way. +They've got to hope that it'll be resolved before then. +If they put another candidate in it's doesn't do Labour's name any good does it? +Mm. +Well it's a +It's a waste +enough of these ad pamphlets. +Guilt? +Well it's, it's been looking as though you're you're guilty +before there's problem a admitted. +I mean as we're not looking to win anyway, I don't know what the hell they're bothered about. +I mean it's not exactly, you know, the world's safest Labour seat is it? +No. +What was this big presentation yesterday? +The tourist notices buffets. +Mm? +Well what it is +Thrown out of their offices. +Champagne and caviar job. +Probably won some trivial award. +No, no, no, they were going to present him wi for something. +Something to do with hoteliers or summat. +Yeah. +You don't for +Probably needed a map to get here did he? +Presume so. +I've read it. +Yeah. +I've just seen to it that . +A hotel with wouldn't you? +Er, in Blackpool? +Mm. +How long's the conferences? +Two days? +Three days? +Friday, Saturday and Sunday. +Friday afternoon, two o'clock Saturday, Sunday. +Finishes at lunch time on Sunday. +Erm I mean I don't know, whether +What? +you're still interested in, I don't know whether you're still interested in speaking but erm, we've just been approached by the A N C, they're pulling everybody back, there's, everybody's going home. +Oh. +Cos, the repatriation what they call, the United Nations start +Hello. +Can I have bookings please? +Oh! +Good morning. +This is Mrs . +I made a booking for erm, two doubles and two singles for the seventh and eighth you've sent me the confirmation out at the non-delegate price. +Co erm it should have been,i it's a Labour Party booking and a Conservative Labour Party booking. +Erm, we did ac yeah, seventh and eighth, yes. +Yes. +Got the special rates in front of me. +It's the Labour Party conference erm bed, breakfast and evening meal is thirty five pounds and forty. +No, it's bed and breakfast is quoted at thirty five a erm double is quoted at sixty six, and singles at forty six . +This apparently happened to Jim last year . +But, he did get a special price? +Yeah. +Yeah. +Say what can I get them for then ? +Say, bugger all! +Well, quite. +So they don't want to +Where is it?? +with Gordon. +Labour Party local government +I know. +themselves. +What ? +Yes. +Be sixty five for a double sixty five for single +You want a new door valve fitting on there. +Once the winter comes +Erm, well that's not, not including forty pound +it is two little well at the bottom +forty so +Yeah. +the door's been broken +Forty six. +Right. +Erm, they're thirty a time +Yes. +those aren't they? +Cos he, he changed the whole pad you know. +Well, I, I don't I'd ever the whole booking. +Is it is it er I mean it's reasonable because it's only bottom one? +They did at Blackpool last week +Yeah, yeah. +No that's alright. +It's when the middle ones are gone +tha that's a problem +Yeah. +innit? +Right. +No that's okay, just leave it at that. +If, if this happens now you, you won't get bookings for a national conference in there. +Mm. +It's actually in it's, it's actually a special leaflet produced by Blackpool, nineteen ninety two re register of conference accommodation. +And these are the prices quoted for erm no, it doesn't say from no nope it just says what the prices would be. +But apparently this happened last year at this particular conference. +Yes. +Well, I haven't got a fax here but I I can send you one because I certainly know my delegates wouldn't want to book at er mm. +Yeah, no well we, we can let you have a copy erm but erm, you know, I, I can't make these reservations at at normal prices, my delegates won't accept that. +So, tell, tell me what you're saying it is. +Yeah. +Yeah. +Well that's not what's been quoted you see. +It's, erm th th the whole, the two conferences for the year, local government and national conference are are on this same register. +Yes. +Yes, it's the i I mean, I, I happen to be a delegate to national conference as well, so I ha I actually have two of these brochures. +I've got the brochure for local government conference, which is this weekend and I've got the brochure for national conference. +So I actually have the same brochure twice. +But erm I know my delegates won't, won't want to book at that er it's, they, they will expect to book at prices quoted in the in the conference register. +Okay. +We will. +Thanks. +Bye . +Certainly won't want to book at that Barry! +Well haven't you got a problem if there's no hotels available? +I have got a massive problem. +Well you can always commute. +Well, that's what we do because they won't put up with that. +Have to try +Is there no hotels I mean, just along that Preston Road? +Well, that's what I'll have to look for now. +I'm in difficulties now. +And these are quoting er +Mind you, you're not gonna get a delegate rate from them are you? +Eh? +You're no the further we, you go away, the further you go away from Blackpool but it's not at +Oh yeah. +But I think +delegate's rate. +I mean, I can find I can find places that are reasonable at that. +But Francis told me that had happened to them last year. +Boo bookings please. +If it's still possible to book erm, two doubles and a twin for this weekend or are you booked up ? +Are they delegates all the time conference? +Well I couldn't get one . +I'm in real trouble. +giving a giving it a a service? +Ah yes. +When she's +Yes. +Mm. +That plastic cupboard for the keyboards that +Yeah, the cupboards that got all the +No, no. +The +Which one? +the other one. +Yeah, that's right. +You know what you have to do? +On the +Oh right! +it sits on top of the hood. +Oh yes, that's right yeah. +Sorry! +Yeah. +Yeah, I'd empty your liquid out of the keyboard +Yeah. +You know you need that +Yeah. +keep those on all the time. +That's right. +It came off at one stage. +Right. +They weren't using it, so +Oh! +put it back on and +Aye. +Someone's +keep it on. +ye cos you know, it's easy enough to +Yeah. +just get a few drips +Yeah. +you've had it! +Ah! +You found one of those. +Yeah. +But erm you've got problems. +especially blackcurrant and orange +I know. +Aye. +Oh! +revolting! +and it's Evesham. +And it's . +I'll confirm to you today. +And they'll arrive,mo Friday afternoon. +Okay. +Thanks very much indeed. +Bye . +That was lucky! +That was very lucky! +It was Bob who told me he booked we our union normally stay at the Claremont you see. +Mm. +She said I've got, only got three twin rooms left in the whole of this hotel so I'll ring Francis and tell her. +It's alright the Claremont. +Oh, they're always quite nice +Oh yeah. +and sociable +Yeah. +with us. +Francis? +It's Jean here. +I yes, I've just had my massive little row with The Savoy about the prices and they just wanted to charge us the normal price! +So I've said they can get stood on. +And I booked at the Claremont which is, twenty eight pounds. +Well, I'm not being prepared to be held to ransom by them. +And I'm, I'm faxing erm I'm sorry, I'm not gonna fax it, I'm just going to send a letter to national office about The Savoy in First Leisure. +Because they can't do this to delegates! +Cos they did it with you last year didn't they? +Mm. +Yeah. +Yeah. +Well, I think we should tell national office that this is, you know, this is happening and it's not on! +I've got I'll tell you what I've got, I've got for nineteen ninety two confere Register of Conference Accommodation, from national office whe where they tell you to book! +You know, cos I'd got it at a P P C as well, for national conference. +So I've actually two you see. +So erm I'm sending one back to national office saying, these hotels are sending confirmation at the full price for local government conference. +Now I, I've rung the Claremont and they've said, oh yes, it's the conference erm you know amount and we're very,appar we were, I was very lucky cos we got the last three rooms. +And she said, we're absolutely booked up! +But, you see Bob told me about it, he said, well he, you know booked at the Claremont because he'd had problems getting prices out of the others. +But, our union always stay at the Claremont and we've always found it, you know, okay. +But I'm, I'm not paying sixty five quid a night! +It's just stupid Francis! +Cos you're never in it. +I mean, you always go to you know, somewhere else don't you? +I didn't ask Francis, so just let me tell you erm they were when I went, it's A, B, D, E, and it's got all the letters next to them. +You know, they say there's a full range of facilities and I'm just looking A is central, bedroom, I'll tell you, I'll, I'll, I'll, we'll whiz through them. +A is central heating, C is car parking, D is street car parking, E is special diets catered for, F, tea and coffee making facility, G is television in bedrooms at no extra charge I is for answering and J K, I've, I'm, just to go all through this, disabled facilities, L separate M bedrooms available with private telephones in, it's N, number of bedrooms available with private bathroom and toilet or shower and toilet. +And that's what it says. +It was, was when I went Francis. +Night porter, Q is lifts to all floor, and S is swimming pool and I know there's a swimming pool because not that I ever used it, but ma it, it was when I booked Francis. +It's right on the prom on the corner on, on North Prom. +It's not far from the Imperial Francis. +So but it was erm just go on that bit of the prom, it's huge! +It's a huge hotel on the corner. +You can't miss it. +I'll, I'll give you the o the address anyway. +Erm, two hundred and seventy North Prom. +Yeah. +Two seventy North Prom. +Erm, and you just say what yeah, two seventy North Prom. +It's, it's pa just past, if you keep going past the Pembroke it's there. +But erm that's right, going out. +Yes. +It's just past there. +You can't lose it Francis, cos it's one of the major hotels. +Yeah. +They've got, they've got lots of bars, there's a bar in the basement and there's bars upstairs, and a dance floor and a swimming pool and I'm sure it will Francis. +I mean yeah, well I don't blame him. +But it says number of bedrooms available with private bathroom and toilet, or shower and toilet. +There are very few hotels of this standard that don't have showers and toilets. +So it's twenty eight Francis, which is, I think is yes. +Yes. +Well, it doesn't matter where we go to eat does it? +And we, can go and eat wherever we want. +Oh! +But th you can have bed and breakfast and evening meal if you want. +Erm, but generally,ye I mean cos Eileen and I go to a we nearly always go somewhere like Carriages or you know, somewhere Italian which is, you know, it might, it all depends on what Jim's eating at the time. +But, but you can't go wrong, there's plenty to eat in Blackpool can you? +In fact, I'm trying to think of a place that erm we once went when we at regional conference, it was behind the Claremont somewhere. +It was a it was a little Italian restaurant with about forty six and we went at regional conference and it was astounding! +It was a really brilliant chef! +I'll try and get Bob to find the the number of it. +Cos that was really a really nice place. +But, you wouldn't have expected to find it where you found it. +No. +You know the road behind the promenade? +It was on that road. +And we only found it by chance, you know how you go off to think oh I'll, I'll go and find a coffee or something, and we found this restaurant at lunch time and had a coffee there and we looked at the menu and, you know, we, we couldn't believe it! +Yeah. +Well I'll try, I'll try and get Bob to remember the name of it. +Alright. +And so I'll see you when we get there Francis. +I said we'll a probably arrive early afternoon. +So no doesn't well you know what he'll be like, he'll be messing about all day. +But I know Kinnock's speaking at four isn't he? +So we I want to Yeah. +Yeah. +Oh well he'll have to be then. +Yeah. +Yeah. +That's alright. +Don't worry. +I'll, I'll look after . +Because there's erm there's Geoff and Louise are staying with us, and Eileen and I are staying. +You and Jim are staying. +And I know that Bob and Sue have booked at the Claremont so there'll be quite a few of us there. +So, I'll, I'll keep an eye on us. +And I'll go and have a look at your room. +Just to make sure everything's alright before he gets there. +Right. +Thanks Francis. +See you Friday. +Bye . +I should have checked that shouldn't I? +Well is a en suite. +Yeah. +I don't think it is gonna be en suite. +Yeah. +Well they said, the number of rooms didn't it? +Didn't say all rooms. +And if you've got the last three I can't believe that the last three are en suite. +I only need one en suite. +That's what I thought ! +It'll be two rooms and a bath or a shower. +Shall I ring back? +I stayed at the Claremont when I was down doing and I can't remember where it is on the street . +Well, I we were when I went +John was. +John but mind you, John has been insistent on it, he +Mm. +moved a whole delegation if it weren't en suite. +Yeah. +Well Bob will do me a swap if it's gonna come to a crisis. +I think I'll ring Madge up. +Cos it will cause a crisis +Oh yeah. +with Jim. +Of course. +I mean he's at the age of being incontinent int he? +Call me regional . +Is he introducing a conference now? +John unwashed and unshaved on the front delegate, on the front. +Yeah. +Yeah. +I'd er ring up just in case cos you might have to solve your problem. +Better to knowing now than to know when you arrive there. +Have they mended your photocopier yet? +No. +They won't be if you want to photocopy something. +I might do. +But we'll give them a ring now anyway. +I need to get hold of Mayfair as well cos there's cigarettes out so +Hello, it's Mrs here, I've just spoken to the other lady making a booking for three twin rooms. +Can you just check whether they're en suite. +They are? +Oh brilliant! +You've saved my life! +Else my chairman was er, just gonna give . +Oh! +That's great! +No problem. +Thanks. +Bye . +Phew! +Yeah. +Better telephone so that she can be sure that when he asks the dreaded question that they are. +Must remember I've got to talk to him about here. +The answer is yes, they all are. +Ah! +Francis I had a little panic then, and I decided to ring them back . +But, no yeah yeah well, I thought, I thought I'd better be safe, yeah. +I don't want a weekend with Jim where I, I'm in trouble all weekend ! +Oh don't Francis! +I mean er, I'd, I'd never have lived it down. +Yeah. +Well that's what he'd say to me, why didn't find out first? +So, anyway, you're reduced from,so it's en suite. +Yeah. +She said exactly Francis! +Well we'll spend it on food and drink Francis. +But erm er, I feel a lot more comfortable cos I think sixty five pounds a night's outrageous! +For just spending well, for us, when we're just, you're only there for your breakfast aren't you? +You never go back again. +So because we'll be able to have lunch at British Home Stores. +We'll not be able to break with tradition . +Geoff will insist that we go to British Home Stores for, well we'll, if, if we we're with Geoff and Louise, that's where we generally go to lunch, and it's really nice! +It's a lovely self-service in Blackpool . +But you know the Labour Party is worse than the Conservatives for traditions aren't they? +Mm. +Anyway, look I'll find out from Bob about this restaurant and see if there's a possibility that it might be worth booking before I go. +But I know that Jim's going to have to . +And I I don't want to spend all night chasing round Blackpool looking for for a place that serves ordinary food of a decent standard. +Right Francis. +I'll leave on that note. +Bye . +Yeah, she does want to go. +They don't want him trailing down th +well we're in a next week. +It would be a couple of days. +I think it's . +I want Mayfair as well. +I want Mayfair to come. +Filling the machine? +Fill it up. +It's empty, so Mayfair fills it up. +You don't know where he is do you? +Oh! +Right. +Okay. +I'll try County Hall. +Right. +Thanks. +Bye . +What's it called Mains? +Mains Business Services. +It's here I think, but I'm not sure. +Mains, Mains, Mains, Mains. +Oh! +They have been getting Ma Macs first don't they? +For some unknown reason!. +Well can I have the Labour group then please? +You tell me why they has Mac before Mains. +Mm. +Right . +L M, Main. +H, I, J, K . +Close. +Sor if I sorted out being able to book at this restaurant which only is about I'd be in +How many nights are you there, two? +Two. +Be in if, everybody's good books. +Cos it really, it's really nice! +We just found it by chance. +You can't, can't +It +remember what it's called? +I know! +I just can't. +Bob'll know. +Well you probably, I mean you, you as, you as well, so I mean, you probably won't +No he's +be able to get there till this evening and you probably won't be able to see him will you? +No. +Well a as long as he knows I'm looking for him. +They erm wa when we to we, we were staying at the Claremont and I don't, oh, I think we just decided we'd find a cup of coffee. +It was M S F thing, we were with Margaret about the M S F. +And said, oh, let's go and find a cup of coffee but, have a bit of a walk and walk down to conference but we'll not walk down the prom +Mm. +we'll walk down the road at the back and we'd only just turned round the corner from the Claremont and we found this restaurant and it was, it was an absolutely brilliant chef, really nice restaurant, really high quality and it was was quite reasonable price, it wasn't cheap. +Mm. +So, when we found this we thought ooh, this is alright! +You know, we'll so we've been quite a few times since, but I cannot think of the name of it. +You see, Jim doesn't like, I mean, we'd go to Carriages probably cos it's a a proper Italian +Yeah. +that absolutely reeks with garlic and all the rest of it. +Well that means Jim will pull a face! +Or he'll start going +Oh, this big international financier! +Oh! +No! +Not, I mean, is the, when it comes down to food wi he's a traditionalist. +So we've always got to find somewhere to eat that's +You're gonna be pushed getting, you know, roast beef and Yorkshire in Brussels aren't you? +God knows! +Steak and kidney pie! +You're joking! +Cos everybody sort of, just try to think, think of in Brussels. +Why they go, they go to er a six course sort of have as much main course as you like. +It's a a a re a really nice restaurant but you can pick all your food raw and they just, there's a chef cooking, and you just get one of these plates, you can have as many helpings as you want, they serve you a cold starter and a hot starter but there's a buffet that's about half the size of our club and one side of it it's all fish on a wet fish slab, and steak, and veal, and chicken and so there's every sort of meat you can think of, and you can pick a wooden platter full of it, so you go and give it the chef with this number that they give you and then they come serve you with whatever you want. +And you can have as many helpings of whatever you want. +And the salad stuff and fresh fruit and all that sort of thing, takes about the full length of our bar up you know, you, you couldn't think of a salad that isn't there. +But you can't, and there's, then there's loads of hot veg. +Mm. +There's no vegetables you can't mention. +I think it's about twenty quid a head, but you can actually have as many meals as you want, or as many puddings as you want. +Yeah. +It's it really is really very, very good. +The Labour Party came to to use that quite a lot. +Because they've got big seating areas as well, where they put, sort of eight tables together and all your party can sit together. +Mm. +When we were there Stan was with us and he'd been a few times to Brussels to with the Labour Party and, and he said oh it's great! +Because usually you go off to a restaurant and if there's twenty of you you can't sit together can you? +No. +No. +But, he said, this restaurant makes a particular thing of seating big parties. +It was a brilliant restaurant! +Really really nice. +So you know +Sergio's going to erm erm one, some Cubs visit to London at er half term. +Baden Powell House? +Yeah, but the +Mary took it. +It's brilliant! +Absolutely great! +And er, so she said she, she wants to take the last couple of days away +Mm. +so she's, her aunty's going to Dublin, so I got these things and they were really cheap actually. +There's the train fare from here to Holyhead return, the ferry, transfers to their hotel the best hotel in Dublin, The Burlington +Mm. +is absolutely stupendous! +Two nights bed and breakfast, full Irish breakfast, which means you won't need to eat until the evening ! +You won't eat again. +No. +Erm train, free bus passes round Dublin, includes their bus fares and, and train on those sort of metro type thing +Yeah. +they have in Dublin all for eighty five quid! +Eh? +I know. +Why? +The only problem is, that the hotel that Mary's like, ah! +This looks beautiful. +Cos I, I, that second hotel,hotel, the only thing, is the Burlington. +And I daren't, I'm not gonna tell her, but I, I, I'm trying to say, well, it's a little bit out, it's in a park and er,th th but it looks gorgeous! +I said, yeah I know. +And it was, where they had their honeymoon. +So I'm going, oh no! +Not for just er Siobhan, and sister-in-law, erm is the head of Town and Travel and, Manchester +Yeah. +Town and Travel, and she got the presidential suite at the Burlington which is like a, you know, I mean, erm, it's absolutely gorgeous! +And it was, it was about two hundred pounds a night and got it for ten pounds a night. +That was about, well, ten years ago, when well well it's really appropriate. +So I think, well this is a, this is actually on O'Connell Street, that's right in the centre. +But I mean, that's actually th th one, one of the, that was the, the, the other ones like four star hotels were on O'Connell Street which actually opens only seventy seven quid. +I know. +That's including all that travel and +Yeah. +and I mean, it's incredible though! +Mm. +And it's something like twenty quid for an extra night if you want to stay, the problem is the Holyhead ferries, they're dreadful! +You know +Yeah. +one gets you in at seven fifteen which means you're only really getting one day +Yeah. +you know, for that price, cos +Yeah. +by the time you got in, checked in, got into the hotel, it's gonna be nine o'clock. +Yeah. +You've missed the day, and, you've got Saturday then,th ferry back is ten o'clock on the Mo or whatever day, but the ferry back is at ten o'clock in the morning so you've got to leave at eight o'clock. +So you really need to go the day before. +I mean, really, you've got to book an extra night to be honest. +Mm. +That's what I mean, you +Yeah. +Yeah. +there's no point in you going +No. +for that, I mean, all you're doing is going on a ferry +I mean if the fe if the ferries were like early sort of bo got you in at lunch time +Mm. +then that would be alright. +And, and, that you could get say +Yeah. +Cos you'd have more in the following day. +get say a late afternoon one back. +Cos it's, and it's only about two and half . +Has it got to be on the ferry has it? +Yeah. +Yeah. +Cos it's part of the, that's why it's so cheap. +Part of the hotel. +Yeah. +We need to phone Mayfair. +Oh! +. We need to phone Marion. +I'll do it, it's alright. +It's been an awful long time for this part hasn't it? +Mm. +I mean, it's been a month. +Need to send away for it. +Just shows the state of British industry. +And the recession. +It's foreign int it? +Oh! +That carpet's gotta be done ain't it? +That carpet cleaner's coming. +Don't bother about that, Eileen and I will do it. +Yeah, but we need a new poster though. +gave us a poster. +Alright? +Mm. +One to come. +No. +He's only coming cos you Oh hi! +It's Mrs here. +Can you just tell, I can ask if my photocopier part's in? +Thanks . +They erm +We need the sa spare part, when I, I mean we need the sort of anyway, what was +Mm. +happening don't we? +And it's , and we also need to see them mend it properly. +I think, we should go for . +Red and blue square, that, you know . +I can't, I can't say. +No. +I mean,we could the use the industrial . +I don't know. +And you could do that in the all the rest area, you could do it in the whole club to be honest. +I think you should go for the blocks of colour. +Mm. +Cos, if you got a room, and you spill on it it wouldn't matter . +Well, I was saying that yesterday to them. +I said . +Right. +Oh God! +Will he? +Cos I'm, I'm getting desperate cos it's getting near the actual time. +Righty-ho! +Thanks. +Speak to you later . +They're gonna chase it up today, he's got quite a few orders outstanding with this company. +Yeah, cos I mean, I were saying that yesterday, that, that little bit of damaged carpet in there because it's a carpet +Mm. +you've really gotta replace the whole bloody carpet haven't you? +Mm. +But yo you know, if you, you got the tile situation you just +Mm. +take a tile off and replace that. +I think you should do the floor +I think we ought to sort of +lino. +Yeah. +Yeah. +You know +Er, well the bulk, the main floor lino, but the two raised areas and stairs in +I think you've got to do it in, and I think you've got to do it in brilliant, er brilliant white. +But get me +Sa a +shop. +Yeah. +Well phone Meg, +Tomorrow afternoon. +Tomorrow afternoon. +Say, three o'clock? +Oh yeah, she'll be here for half past one. +We well, yeah. +I mean, and you here, I want you here tomorrow too. +Oh hello! +It's Mrs at the . +Is there a possibility of someone coming and filling the machine tomorrow afternoon? +At three o'clock if possible. +Well we'll be there, we'll be here till four. +Yeah. +Yeah, okay. +Thanks. +Bye . +Which, which number of theirs? +The shop. +Er er well it just says Lunar Mills or after sa after hours sales office. +Does it not give a name for the shop? +Well give me Lunar Mills then? +Yep! +Right. +Second time, I'm gonna have to come back. +Yes of course I can. +That's it, forty three. +Bruerne's okay. +Yeah, we got one actually. +Yeah . +You okay for till rolls? +Right. +Are we okay for till rolls? +Yeah? +Just, I think we are Barry, just have +I haven't +a look. +Yeah. +I said to him on erm su er sa Saturday night. +Oh well, he said to me on Saturday he said do it Thursday after +Yeah. +I say, so I said, well I'll arrange for a delivery. +But, having said that he's not the most reliable person in the world. +Have you given Peter your order? +Yeah. +Oh. +And does he have to be, I mean, are we not gonna be there most of the time? +Yeah. +Co yeah we are. +Well, you are. +I'll be back as soon as I can. +Yeah. +I mean, I can be back for well I mean, I can actually stay there in fact. +Well, do you want the latest? +Yeah. +There's, there's Steve , Dave er, all the men's meeting at the hideaway +Oh yeah. +is now going to be at the . +We think she should, might stand down gracefully, if she doesn't erm she, we could refuse to adopt, but she's over there personally. +Erm, I'm in two minds about what to do. +I could name names and say because this is not a party decision, it's +Yeah. +Dave , Steve , etcetera, and . +Now, who's Dave ? +Senior employee of the City Council +Yeah. +meeting with the leader of the Labour group who's supposedly doing all this to protect his wife. +The reason he's married to her I mean, even . +I could, I could really throw the dirt at them by saying that I'll, you know, if there is a conspiracy there's, a person here who's been involved in a very iffy part of the budget, who all of a sudden after ten years of slagging off the town clerk, all of a sudden he's totally on the town clerk's side, together with Councillor . +Why? +The only person who's involved in both, allowing the town clerk to take these decisions, without any interference at all +Mm. +and now conspiring with a senior employee of the council, and of course,. +Just not so. +Yeah. +All of a sudden this erm worry about this budget heading, is being swept under the carpets and everybody being told is all in been er cleared up. +It's Dave . +I'd fire him. +Mm. +I could really make this into a very great conspiracy for . +Mm. +Apart from which, this meeting that they're supposed to be going to have is totally out of order anyway. +Cos nobody's been sent any notices for it or notified about it. +So I mean, I, I could +What the hell are they doing now! +get the full meeting cance I mean, you get Ashdown yesterday, his party rally round him like +Mm. +royalty's going of fashion! +You get, I mean, Dave and Steve , alright, they've never been my favourite people but all this pious goings-on with Dave , how much he hates the town clerk, and whatever opportunity he could get he would +Mm. +take. +Mm. +First opportunity, real opportunity he gets he's doing everything the town clerk wants him to do. +Yeah. +I just, I, I, honestly Barry, I've got to the stage where I believe in this conspiracy . +Mm. +Well certainly some people want some answers want to be given on this budget, er me as well, I mean, he can't just suddenly say +Well +it's all been sorted out, don't worry about it. +Well I think it will be really stupid. +But I shall say Dave +And how long ? +Well I park +I'll put +er +I'll drop you off. +Cos I want to go home and , I've got to home cos I've I've a stack of paperwork on my table. +I'm not gonna be able to set off much later on remember because +There's no point in me getting +Nope. +I'll have to go up to shop to get some shopping cos there's nothing to eat in the house. +So I'll have to do something . +Alright Barry? +I just wonder what on earth they're, they're playing at with ha, cha cha cha cha cha cha. +You know, I just don't understand what they're playing but th you know +They +they can only be doing damage to th to the election chances I mean +Well they +they can't be achieving anything else! +I mean saying things like a successor has already been identified. +I mean it's just stupid! +Cos the general view in Morecambe isn't what they say it is. +Yeah, but it gives the impression there's a split group innit? +Well, you give the impression of a a faction in the party, now I could, I could serve this faction quite easily to Mike who'd give me a lot of say if I said, you know,th the the plot thickens, you know, here's a town +Yeah. +hall employee +Yeah. +always an opponent of the town clerk also now erm trying to cause problems. +Mm. +I mean, that really does make the plot thicken doesn't it? +Yeah. +I mean, why was Dave being quoted for , what has it got to with Dave ? +He's not an officer of the constitut he isn't a treasurer, he isn't secretary, he's, he's nothing as far the constituency's concerned. +They, if they want any quotes why don't they go and see chairman, who's Terry? +Yeah. +I mean, this is them deliberately saying things to their friends and deliberately stirring it. +They, oh! +Because, I mean, I know where it's coming from, some of it's coming from Stanley , who, who thinks if I don't stand down it will damage Ruth's chances. +That's not Ruth's own view of it. +Well it, and I don't think with the News of the World round their necks they can afford to start playing silly people. +Because I'm, you know, if they sa if they keep crossing me the way they are, quite frankly I'm you know, willing to make remarks myself. +Although I don't want to do damaging things, but I don't see why I should be the person con cons constantly getting the flack from a group of people who were you know. +Yeah. +Who are genuinely trying to do damage to the party. +So do you want me to call at the 's now? +Yeah. +There's, may as well. +Well, don't know. +Well it doesn't really matter, I'll, I'll be I mean, what, so I mean there's except for seeing Anne there's nothing more to do is there? +Well except to start getting that rubbish cleared away. +Well I can't put it away. +Don't want a pile in the cellar when carpet delivery comes. +No, but I pu put it next to the lift and as soon as Hughey comes put it outside and when I come back I'll take it away. +No you won't cos I'm meeting Ellial at, at half three. +Well I mean, I should be back for half past two. +I mean, if you want to just put it in that dustbin place and we'll take it tomorrow. +Mm. +You know, the washing up machine and everything, all, all of that needs cleaning out, all behind the bar needs cleaning. +We're giving people a very bad impression if we're opening tonight and nothing's been cleared up. +I think I'll go for it Barry. +I'll, I'll go and see where he is, and say, you know That washing up and everything wants doing before tonight so you, so if you're gonna say oh, we're open tonight and the place still looks like a pig stye! +It ain't gonna give a very good impression. +Well he's not gonna want to, he's not,sha I mean he's it's not a meeting to look around the place is it really? +Well it is. +That's what they're coming for. +That's one of the things Richard is coming for, to look round. +We'll come and have a good look round, I've never seen it. +I mean, er, you know what that's to do with don't you? +The repairs notice. +Even if we only got all those old tickets and things into green bags and started cleaning that out it would it would look as though we're making some effort. +Er, if I can get the and get him to come in reasonably soon, you know, I'll ring you and tell you whether he's in. +If we could get him to come in reasonably quickly you could get all that stuff down and bagged up and we could get rid of it couldn't we? +Which which tickets are you talking about? +Well all the old tickets and stuff, I mean, alright +Where? +From where? +In, the bottom office. +Oh yeah. +As well as all the junk that's in the cleaner's room, it all wants getting rid of. +I mean, what's happening about these speakers then? +I mean, is this supposed to be happening tonight or +No. +what's +Well it's it's a trial. +Go in then. +Just stop if there's any mail. +No there's nothing. +Oh. +Okay. +I'll go and get in and get on with +Alright. +That's a master key for those . +What do you want? +Well I put that blue thing and it's fallen down. +This? +Over here? +Yeah. +And I say, Bernie's room. +See if there's any rubbish er are those, are those worth keeping those? +Yeah, these are alright. +These are +Yeah. +a couple of them are okay. +It's a full . +Yeah. +Full set. +Yeah, that's what I thought, there's about three or four towels and few +Makes it complicated. +That's no good. +That's no good is it? +What about these ones? +Aren't you gonna put these in it? +The what? +The doors over there? +What doors? +These. +Is that a door? +Yeah, in there as well. +We'll stick that stick that in. +Wanna stick that in or not? +Yeah. +Nothing else? +Well that's a fire door is it? +we'll have to take it off this. +Yes. +Sorry. +Right, I'll try and get on with fixing that . +Yeah. +Er +Did you see the match last night? +No, I mean, I saw +Well I never watched it myself. +You know I didn't watch +I heard the score, I heard the score after that and I never bloody watched it. +Mm. +I, I actually taped it and I was, I was watching a bit this morning before Jean came. +Two one. +Ah? +No, that's a trestle table. +Are you leaving that there? +Yeah. +Cos I, I wanna take those mikes out and take them. +I mean, that's just a, a brief using a frame and re-cutting it. +Yeah. +Alright then? +Oh! +Ha ha ah ah! +There's a lot of rubbish in here int there? +Well stinks of it! +I suppose +I mean, this is the +She didn't want that dumped last time. +Didn't she? +No. +Well, well I thought, what the fuck is she supposed to do with them, ah? +Well nothi well we're not anyway because we're not do using those lights any more so +Well sure, then they can come down then. +Yeah. +Yeah. +I mean, basically you wanna be quite ruthless and just get rid of +Everything. +everything that's going to be dumped, and we're not gonna use again. +Ha ha. +Yeah. +Er and the same out the bottom office. +Erm just get rid of everything, I mean, how many of these fluorescent tubes are used up? +They must be all done or they wouldn't be down in the first place would they? +I wouldn't have thought so. +I mean why would any +Th they have obviously been used. +Yeah. +That's right. +So why are they taken down? +Yeah. +Repair some of the er the framework . +Erm +I'll go and get a rubbish bin. +Yeah. +We got plenty of those. +That's er had it. +We, have we got a mop behind the bar? +No. +D'ya want me to ? +Yeah. +Erm well I would. +Yeah. +Well we need this bar floor mopped anyway don't we? +Yeah. +It's sticky so I'll er, I'll leave it here at the moment. +Have you found out how much Terry's ? +Er, no we got it read yesterday, and, and zeroed up, so Jean got the till roll, I'll have a, I'll erm +Eh? +I've got to look at it today, I meant to have a look. +Er, I'll er I'll do that later on. +Right, what wha what we're doing, we've got erm +Do you want rid of these then, yeah? +Yeah. +You what? +We're gonna have to walk some of this down aren't we? +Yeah. +Erm +What about the cellar? +Do you wanna tidy that out, or are you just gonna leave the rubbish in it? +Well we're not, taken all the rubbish. +Have you? +Yeah. +Yeah. +There's just that lot we sent down now, and er +Where did that go? +Er we took it er +What about this one? +Monday, Monday or Tuesday. +Monday. +What are they? +Oh! +They're over there. +That looks quite useful that. +I'll move that one we're gonna +Ooh! +we're gonna Americanize the club. +How d'ya mean, Americanize it ? +I'm gonna turn it into a ma an er American theme, like, you know a Harley Davidson bits of bike on th th on the walls and guitars and +Why are they, are they putting some money up +Yeah. +to do that? +Yeah. +How much? +About fifteen grand at the moment +Phew! +from one brewery. +As much as that? +Well,no non, unsecured loan written off against barrelage. +But, but +Jesus! +what we've, what we've done is the said job where, where +Who's doing that? +Erm Whitbreads. +Erm +Mind you, it's not a lot of money for Whitbread. +Well, yeah, from Whitbread. +No that's right. +I'll go into Wilsons for another fifteen. +And put Budweiser on draught. +Boddingtons. +No,Wilso Wilsons do bitter don't they? +Yeah. +Boddingtons they do. +Whitbread. +Oh! +Wilsons do +Yeah. +bitter, yeah. +Erm +We've had this before. +Wilsons, Samuel, Sam Smith's erm it's, it's th you know, it's they've all brought each other up now so they can virtually get anything. +Mm. +But I'm, I'm re I'm, what I'm after is Budweiser on draught more than anything else. +I'm gonna have Budweiser, J D you know, go +Mm. +American stuff. +through the, yeah, I'm gonna +Mhm. +the thing is, you see, if we do it an American flavour I mean, people expect heavy rock music in an +Mm. +American bar don't they? +Mm. +I mean, you expect to be going in and listening to Bon Jovi and, and Free, and you know in the background don't you? +You have . +Yeah. +Well I mean +Put in jukeboxes. +Yeah. +I mean, you could be up with the fucking couldn't you? +For +Well that's, well, well, well, we're thinking of opening +Just as a pub like. +yeah, we're gonna open as a pub during the summer erm +What about all these Barry? +No, we'll keep those for su you never know. +Yeah, okay. +Put them in here? +So we have and erm we're gonna open up the top bar, top bar and ripping up the carpet +in the main room, and lino in the main floor right, in, in sort of +Which one? +probably blue +The one? +Yeah. +And redoing the stage floor. +And I'm carpeting I think I'll carpet tile +Have you had a price on what it's gonna cost to put that down? +Not that much, cos we're getting the lino off Pete you see, and get the discount off to do the, just for the lino +Oh right! +Yeah, course. +and then make it +Rhona's husband? +Yeah. +Ex-husband, yeah. +Erm, and having a carpet tile because we can then do it red, white, and, not white, but red and blue you know. +Yeah. +And, if you +Yeah. +damage a tile, then you're only replacing a tile. +And just sort of carpet the two top areas, two raised areas, and have the other, the rest of it as a sort of lino floor. +Mm. +So then, then it, allows to dance as well, and basically hardly anybody sits in that area until the club's full anyway +Mm mm. +so that they all go in the . +Erm, going to somehow, at the moment we're thinking of well Jean'll wanna do it, but I'm I'm thinking of doing some kind of I mean, we're agreed on what we're gonna do, but it's how we do it, I want some ka er, some kind of grilling around the top, the cocktail bar area, so you can open it as a, as a bar, and it'll have a sort of atmosphere in itself, so we open that as a pub type of thing, you know. +Oh right! +Yeah, yeah, yeah. +Leave the big screen on and that and we can put erm and get, you know, as I say, if you +Do you +you get, see if we can get hold of like, I mean you won't be able to get hold of a Wurlitzer because nowadays they're like gold dust, but you might be able to get hold of parts, you see. +If you could just get hold of say, the rainbow +Yeah. +effect of a Wurli I mean, that's the beauty about it you, you'll never get hold of a Harley Davidson, but you might get hold of a petrol cap. +Yeah. +You know, or things +Yeah. +like that, you know +Yeah. +and you just bang those around the place. +Er, a few handlebars and whatever else and, but, but but don't do it like the British bikers, do it like an American bar, so it can be cleaned and +I mean it can look nice and +Yeah. +sparkling and fiftiesey, and lots of pictures and +Not the dirty bloody smell and greasy . +No, that's right, yeah. +That's right. +You see, and then if, if, if, if, if sort of people are, you know, holiday makers come in, and it's an American theme, they expect it. +Mm. +As I say, they expect I've got music, it's not gonna come as a shock to them. +They've got +You know, and it'll, and it'll have a sort of atmosphere I think. +And, and it won't cost a lot to do, cos all you do instead of green, you'll paint that red and you've got the white pick out anyway, and a blue, seated blue carpet. +I wondered what those fucking ! +No, where am I gonna be able to get rid of this? +I don't know. +I think we'll have to, I think we've got to keep it cos I think it's part of the fixtures and fittings unfortunately. +And I'm gonna do er, you know, lots of promotions and stuff promotions on that +And then your promotions, yeah? +Yeah. +Yeah. +We well what I think I'm gonna do is next Thur not this Thursday, we'll just have to live through this Thursday, but next Thursday, erm I'm gonna get get Stella back on, and I'm just gonna sell it as cost, whatever it is, sixty P a pint or whatever. +? +Yeah. +I mean, cos at the end of the day if you've got the, if you've got, if you can get er sixty people +You'll +two fifty to come in, I don't mind if I'm giving the booze away! +And er, as long you got the . +As long as you're not losing on it. +Yeah. +Well it doesn't matter does it? +You know cos that's the only way we're gonna build Thursdays up. +No +That'll be gone then. +Je Jean's is it? +Right. +Get rid of it. +Oh no, maybe not. +Jean's doing tonight. +I thought it had gone off. +Jean's doing tonight, and I'm doing Friday and Saturday. +So er +She's away int she? +She's away. +Yeah. +Er but, you know, I, I'd, as I say, I think er and then if we just, if we can just pick up like the odd I mean, I've, I've had a long chat with Anne, we've had a long, erm meeting with Anne yesterday about it, and she's gonna start pushing cos you know, she's really done the Royal upstairs, it's +Mm. +a really beautiful room, but it only holds about forty, fifty people, what she's gonna do is push the weddings, but she's gonna, and say look, you can use this place +For the reception. +For any, any, anything bigger, you know, you've got +Well for dancing. +Yes. +Yes. +you've got forty people, you want somewhere bigger, then fine. +Cos er, Mark last week said er, he'd been approached by a wedding to do a disco, he said well I can't it's a Saturday, and then he said well, you know, where are you having the reception, said well we're looking round at the moment. +Mm. +Well can't, he said look have a word, and he said to me, you know, do you mind if we do like eight till eleven o'clock as a wedding party +Right, yeah. +Well +and then we just do the disco afterwards +Anyone can stay on if they want can't they? +That's right. +So we just get them in, we open up our doors at ten o'clock. +And I mean, I wanna change the ten o'clock opening, it's bloody silly is that! +That's just bloody ridiculous that! +I mean, we may as well come in at twenty to ten, and, and have twenty minutes of you know because, nine thirty you know. +The only people you get in before nine thirty don't drink anyway do they? +No. +Just +Well, we don't need to come in . +They did last when did they come in last week? +Is it Thursday they came in? +Thursday. +Yeah, they came in really early about four of them didn't they? +Oh! +We thought they were, yeah, and they fucking bought one drink between them! +Yeah. +That's right, yeah . +That's right. +Right. +Well you won't want these ? +Er, no I'll leave them. +Leave that, but er +Well,. +What? +Mhm. +Right, I'll leave this . +Should be alright there shouldn't it? +Yeah, well you'll have to leave it anyway. +It's the wrong size actually. +Will I just dump this whole lot +Yeah. +? +Yeah. +Then, and then you can shall I get a oh that's the other thing, I'm gonna get the toilets redone. +I'm getting the toilets +I don't know if we can dump this here. +What are they? +Oh, those. +One of them things for the plant or for the +Oh yeah. +Oh yeah. +Oh. +What I'm gonna do is get the toilets, I'm gonna get the toilets, the gents toilets, all the urinals ripped out and getting it troughed all the way around +Yeah. +that L though and that's why +But before I got, I er, I suggested that fucking years ago! +I know. +We well we did, we looked at it when we first opened but it was like another grand to do that. +Is it? +Yeah. +Is that what it's gonna cost? +Nine hundred quid to just, just for the troughing. +Well, so you gotta be fucking right, you, you must be paying nine hundred pound out +No. +every fucking three months +That's right. +and all! +That's right. +Well you pa yeah you certainly pay nine hundred pound a year out anyway, damage to the toilet seat and so you know, that'll pay itself back in a year and, you know. +And also, it's just the hassle . +Yeah. +And there's, er, I mean it was showing somebody round the other day and we were talking about it and, and erm they're saying, yeah I mean, you've got seven urinals there, so let's say you have a busy night, you're full, I mean that's when damage gets done when people +Mhm. +are sat around waiting +Mm. +Mm. +you know, and they're and sat on sinks and whatever else, so you know, you could, you could get twenty guys on that urinal that you can get for seven. +Erm well I'm obviously going on yeah, let's just I was saying just dump it all. +And er ah these . +Right, I've just gotta phone Alan upstairs so +Okay. +a couple of things. +He's looking at doing a me he's doing a menu of stuff for us so er will that go in, that'll go in the lift won't it? +Maybe. +Yeah it would. +Yeah it will. +Poor old Ossie Ardilles, eh? +Mm? +Poor old Ossie Ardilles! +Bloody great innit? +You know, I mean +A vote of confidence and gone +Yeah. +the next fucking day! +I know. +I mean you'd really, you really need that don't you? +Hey! +It's getting a bit wild in Belfast. +Well that's what this, I know, it's getting a bit, Jesus! +That's +A bit wild in Belfast innit? +as well innit? +Yeah. +Well the last three days innit? +I mean it's just +if you're lucky. +Yeah. +Ah, like okay, and I suppose Sinn Fein is fair fucking game like, you know but the, not fucking innocent! +Jesus! +When they +and er, and there's the U B S that always do that kind of thing. +I know. +Like, er the I R A, they're mucking about with it, but it's us they usually fucking like it's it's not just because of promises either, you know, not generally. +No. +Well no, I mean,a tha even tha that one the other day with the eight workers I mean it +Yeah but they were we like they shot Catholics +Yeah. +as well! +That's right . +Yeah I know. +Yeah. +I mean they don't ask your religion when they go +No. +into action do they? +No. +But er I mean, it must be wild. +It's completely out of hand! +Yeah. +Completely now. +I know. +It's fucking +Hey! +They're opening and Belfast ferry again. +Passenger. +When? +This summer. +Ah! +You're joking? +This summer. +No. +I'll be fucking back and forward every couple of days ! +It's er it's a long one +What are they gonna be charging? +sa I don't know. +I I'm +It's an eight hour crossing, I know that. +Ten hours, they've got it averaged at ten hours. +Oh! +Fucking hell! +It's a long time. +It's two o'clock sailing so you get in at midnight. +What is it only ? +Are they gonna be doing decent ferries +So like +like? +With your tables +Oh yeah. +Yeah. +It's gonna be a proper ferry. +It's gonna be a proper passenger car ferry. +Well didn't, didn't you travel on the er other not so long ago? +Yeah. +Yeah. +Yeah. +Yeah. +How long was that? +How long was the ferry? +That was about eight hours. +Yeah. +But it takes a bit quicker, yeah, yeah. +But it's a car one. +Erm i but surely it's a,i it's an awkward in a sense it's two o it's great, it's alright this end it's two o'clock sailing from here, but I mean that means +Two in the morning? +No. +Two in the afternoon. +That means you're getting in +It used to be midnight. +that means you're getting in at midnight into +Yeah. +Belfast, which is +Mm. +a bit of a pain. +Well it's not it really depends on how far away you are. +Well it used to, it used to be midnight. +It used to sail at midnight which was handy for connections when you stay there. +But I mean, you know but o okay you've got +But you obviously need someone +another two or three hours on a journey +You don't wanna be hanging around Belfast do you? +No. +Well you've got another two or three hours on the journey, but having said tha well if you get picked up at the other end it's not too bad. +Two or three hours on the journey, but on, having said that you got in time for the train fare, the and the +Mm mm. +dis I mean, it's a bloody long time that train innit? +Or else if you're driving up to Stranraer it's a, it's a good three and half hours' drive plus your petrol. +Yeah, you sa you've got enough chopping and fucking changing like, it was fucking nightmare with them kids going to +Yeah. +Stranraer! +Well that's right. +Changing the like up here, changing at Lancaster, changing at Carlisle, then changing at Glasgow. +Well I've never had to do that. +I've normally caught a train that's gone thro straight through, there used to wo I don't know whether there still is but there always used to be one. +But even so, I mean I took a, like a two or three year old on it and I mean it is it's a nightmare! +You know, you can't amuse them at that ta er can you? +You know, they wanna not for that, that you know, a couple of hours you keep a kid amused by well a +Ha! +you know after that they +Ha! +they wanna run around. +All five of them. +Come here! +Yeah. +Come here! +So er that's it. +So I mean you'll be there won't you? +Got er I just picked up er Mary once going to Dublin. +Ser Sergio's in erm London at half term with the Cubs for about four days, I said do you fancy a sort of two or three day break, said one of these short breaks? +Yeah. +She said I'm off to Dublin. +So I don't think really, really train from Morecambe to Holyhead return. +We were gonna, er we were thinking about going up there. +Lancaster, Morecambe to Holyhead return Holyhead to Dub Dublin, the ferry +Your ferry . +Yeah, you get the +Right. +return. +Centre. +Yeah. +Two nights bed and breakfast in the Burlington, or one of the other four star ones. +I mean, they're good quality. +We've been in the Burlington years ago and it was like +Ah! +We've been in the Burlington in Dublin, it's gorgeous! +Yeah. +like hundred quid a night ten +Yeah. +years ago. +Erm transfer from the ferry to the hotel and back again free bus tickets, free rail tickets in, in Dublin area. +To travel for the weekend? +Yeah. +Right. +Eighty seven quid. +You're joking! +No. +Oh! +Fucking hell! +Good that innit? +Cos a full Irish hotel breakfast, you don't need lunch do you? +You know. +You're joking! +No. +How did you manage that? +Oh no they're, no they're, they're in the brochure. +Yeah. +brochure. +Fucking hell! +I get, I go for but I think it was gonna cost about eighty five to travel that way. +Yeah. +Very good that. +Sixty seven last time I went over there. +And if you want to stay an extra day it's about twenty quid extra. +Fucking brilliant! +Yeah. +Jesus! +Yeah. +I like that. +So you just so, to get, actually you do need to stay the extra day cos it, cos th the sailings from Holyhead and get, yeah +To make it worth your while. +Yeah. +the sailings from Holyhead get you in at seven +Well even at that price for only hundred and seven pound. +Yeah. +That's right. +Hundred,hundr hundred and seven quid for erm and you get a complete Saturday and Sunday then. +Yeah. +So you arrive Friday night at night, seven thirty so by the time you got your hotel and checked in, da da da, it's nine o'clock at night. +Well if you did i if you only did the two nights you'd be co and the sailing is on +Yeah. +Yeah. +the sailing's first thing on +So like, you've only got a day and a half haven't you? +That's right. +Well you haven't even got that cos the sailing's ten o'clock on the Sunday morning. +That's right. +Yeah. +So you've only really got Saturday so, if you took the extra night, and then you've got a ten o'clock sailing Mon you're back in Lancaster +For twenty quid like you +Yeah. +can take off that weekend . +Yeah. +Exactly. +Not in a, not in a prop you know a bed and breakfast in a +Well +four star hotel. +Four star hotel. +I mean they're good hotels those. +Cos as I say, I stayed in the Burlington. +I'm trying to talk Mary out of Burlington that's all cos that's where I had my honeymoon. +She doesn't she doesn't I ha you know I, I +Oh God! +I said well she said, it looks lovely this. +I said, well it is, yes, I mean +this is a really, this is more central, cos there's one on O'Connell Street you know, so you're right in the middle then +Yeah. +aren't you? +I mean the Burlington's a little bit out. +So then she said +I'll make her go up there. +go up to the Currane. +I'm going, oh God! +That's where I got marri married. +Well I +Did you? +Yeah. +I got married in Newbridge just a a little village on the Currane. +Currane. +So er +Oh God! +The things you'll do for a cheap holiday ! +Yeah, sure. +You wrapping these up as well then? +Yep. +Good. +That's unbelievable that +It is a great price innit? +But like er +If you,i i they, they got the brochures in A T Mays. +A T Mays? +Yeah. +Er you know +But anyway, my Dawn, Dawn's mother went down to see a show in London not so long ago, stayed er, stayed two nights in a hotel, it was o it was only like ninety odd pound for them. +Yeah. +That's right. +Well er, there's erm +There's some brilliant short breaks now. +Oh I know. +Well, there's, there's er there's one that Mary's lad took his girlfriend on, er two nights London Hilton and train fare thirty nine quid. +London Hilton! +No so no I think it, no sorry, sorry, not it's not, it's two days one night. +Sorry, it's one night. +Well if, you're gonna pay a hundred and fifty a night +Oh yeah. +up in them +That's right. +Oh yeah. +I mean, but your train fare alone will cost you, it'll cost you thirty quid. +Course. +Yeah. +Yeah. +You know when we, we, when we first opened from a dead start right? +The first fifty five weeks which is +Just over a year. +a year we did na on the bar did ninety thousand quid. +Jesus! +The next five months less than half a year af the next five months after that right? +When Jean stopped doing her silly things? +Yeah. +Well, yeah, when whe er er a after that first year the next five months seventy nine thousand! +Fucking hell! +In five months. +So if we'd have carried on at that +So you would have like, you would have well doubled that. +Yeah. +I mean tha th we, it, have been +Five months you would have equalled . +Well I think we'd have gone to two hundred thousand. +Yeah. +But that, at the end of that period was when Volks recalled the loan. +Aye. +And +And +you were buying seventy off them or something? +Yeah. +But er, but when +You were getting all your orders from them at that time? +Yeah. +But when Volks recalled the loan we sort of give up. +Yeah. +I, we went two day week opening and not publicizing it, everything. +Yeah. +So if we'd have just carried on the way that was going, I mean, that got it from ninety thousand in just over a year to, to seventy nine thousand in five months. +Jesus! +It's amazing! +Know what I mean, like we didn't want +Surely they've saw the trend? +Well +You did show them? +I think +No Barry don't I don't you're not fucking doing nothing ! +Cost you a fortune that stuff. +Yeah. +Right. +That one . +Looks like a motorbike handlebars you can stick it on the wall. +What about this milk, milk machine? +No, bung it. +Whoops. +Over there. +Look at all that shit there! +What on earth's that? +That's one of the shamp er carpet shampoos. +It's probably when Jean bought it. +Right. +Well I'll leave it here. +Er +Probably cost a fortune . +No. +Wanna dump it? +Yeah. +I mean I'm, yeah you know, we're just gonna make a fresh start in here, we've zeroed all the tills for last week and everything so Jim's er, that's locked. +Don't wanna keep this? +No? +Erm +Nor this one? +Er, yeah alright. +Well I'll just get +That one. +I'll find a box for these little +Yeah. +bits and pieces here. +Yeah. +Yeah. +That's one or two of Kerry's is it? +Yeah. +They can go as well. +We've got enough mop heads brush heads rather, we just haven't got any, not connected to the brushes. +Will that go in the bin? +We might as well carry it down. +Er I'm sure none of this, this lot +Well +no, just make, I'll just make a way through that's all I want. +Can you sort of give it a sweep ? +Yeah. +Is Anne putting those out? +Is she what? +Putting those out? +Yeah, there were some last week, everything's there. +Oh was there? +I was trying to kill the then? +You did them? +Yeah. +Oh God! +I found the keys as well. +That's what I'm saying we've still got that massive box of keys that goes in there +Well I did +that we had from the day we opened and we've never found them! +You used to be a whole sack of them! +Yeah. +And we've never found where they're fitted. +Will we keep this? +Er may as well. +Mind you, I don't know we got oh yeah keep it I suppose. +Might just miss it. +Want it mopped over in the morning. +What's that? +What's that for? +What's that? +Polyester filling. +They're teddy bears by the looks of it. +Flame retardant oh! +They're, they're the seats. +They're all the seats. +Mm. +That's +probably use that for +Yeah. +I think you've destroyed it now haven't you? +What's this bit? +Yeah, if we give this a sweep out and that. +And hoo hoover that little area there where all that, I tipped +Yeah. +all that rubbish because it's I mean the hoover's +I'll mop, brush it. +knackered anyway. +It needs +I'll brush it with the +Yeah. +Could just leave tha lay those bowls over there. +For what? +The sweets. +Oh yeah. +Yeah. +Yeah, good idea. +Probably get, less chance of getting broken out there. +What's happened ? +Yeah. +That, over there. +Have we got any screwdrivers around? +I dunno. +Probably. +I think there's one on the . +Not much good. +I suppose we could put that door back on again inside. +Yeah. +Oh wait! +I'm gonna fix that, no do I'll, yeah I'll bring some from home cos I wan I wanna nip home for er an hour and I'll er I've just seen Anne. +What are you doing with these for? +Erm American stuff for +Mm. +Yeah. +I'm gonna do like chillies and whatever, you know. +She, she can re do them and we just have, microwave them when, as and when. +Ah. +I need somebody in to do that. +The bar staff could do that like. +Ye oh yeah. +Could they? +I think +Yeah. +just get them all you can get them for them. +Yeah. +Have them fucking ready made up and just +Cos +move them out. +Cos even +Simple! +even ri I mean rice does really well in a microwave. +Well you can have them in the freezer. +You can freeze rice and then put it straight in the microwave. +Yeah. +Just, just to sprinkle on water on them. +Just seal them up with a fuck it's called? +That cling film stuff. +Yeah. +Right. +I've just snapped the screwdriver! +I bet you it's an ordinary screwdriver. +No. +No, it's a my word! +Don't touch them things grease on it. +Shit! +Why is it cleaner's rooms always end up like this? +Dirtiest room in the whole +Yeah. +See this was, this was the dance floor before +Yeah. +er, where it follows this line. +Yeah. +And it was a sort of funny shaped thing. +Yeah. +Just to here. +And it was like, nothing, so we just extended all this out and made it into a stage come, a bigger dance floor cos the I don't know why they wa always seem to have this trends that, they have these trends in the seventies and that was, and eighties of having small dance floors +Right tiny dance floors, yeah. +Right, that's and the disco console was open to the public so the public could just wander in and tap the D J on the back and tu change his records for him or whatever. +It's a stupid opera so we've fenced that in. +Erm but this is the area up here Anne, that I was sort of thinking that we could if we can, some kind of trellis or something around this raised area here you could actually open this bit as the, as a pub on a +With what? +Sorry! +as a sort of pub, you know, on a Saturday and Sunday in the season. +Food and that. +You know, and with a big screen you can have like sport or Grandstand or +Right. +ro music videos or whatever you wanna do. +Get satellite in and get M T V on. +Mind you, the satellite's gonna cost three hundred quid! +Roughly. +This is like cocktail bar bit +Yeah. +isn't it? +Yeah. +I mean, change all the, paint o pa paint all the, change all the green to sort of red +Green shouldn't be up anyway. +Yeah. +Red, and then you got the white pick out +Yeah. +and you got the blue seats, so you've got red, white and blue haven't you? +Yeah. +They aren't cheap chairs these either +Yeah. +are they? +Oh no. +Nothing was cheap, I mean +No I wouldn't have thought it was. +the seats are good, you know, these tables are bloody heavy! +And they've done a you know, they did a good job when they built it. +Erm I mean, you can see what he, what he intended doing was the plans were beautiful! +This was gonna be there's a piano there on that +Mm. +raised area there, so this was like a piano bar +Yeah. +there was gonna be a big fountain in the middle there +Yeah. +this wasn't gonna be disco +No. +a big fountain in the middle there +Yeah. +and an orange grow +Yeah. +type affect, it was gonna be called the ora this was the blue one, so that was the orange +Yeah. +purple, whatever. +The bar was a double-sided open +Bar across that other side? +Yeah. +Great! +And the other side +Yeah. +which was gonna be a big glassed disco +Yeah. +in there, and that was gonna be the disco, and this was the, you know, I mean it was a good idea, I don't know why he pulled out with went half-cock. +Erm you know. +True. +These are the things we were talking about yesterday these uprights. +I mean they just +Erm +open for +well you could shorten them anyway. +Yeah. +You could just shorten them And +I mean they're very sort of vandal easy or whatever. +Vandal a fa er vandal friendly hooligan friendly aren't they? +Yeah. +Whatever! +You know, I mean we just got them cheap erm lampshades from now on er cos it's not worth it cos th the expensive ones are just getting damaged all the time. +We could shorten them anyway and just put lamps on them. +Yeah. +Whatever. +If you don't hang them on Gerry's thingy anyway. +No you don't. +That's right. +See, if you sort of somehow trellis that area, that side in you could actually have this mo more intimate if people just wanted to +Snog! +sit in here. +Yeah. +Yeah. +If you got, you know, if you got a character behind the bar could er attract people by his own force of personality. +I think erm you could but you know, really then you think when +Mm. +they come in we can start +Oh yeah. +Yeah. +Yeah it is. +Cos I wouldn't lo I mean I actually don't think you can do, if you're gonna do people are gonna eat I th I think you're gonna be pushed at more than about hundred and fifty to two hundred. +You know, depends on how you retail it first but +I think it depends which it, what you +Yeah. +do. +Yeah. +Erm +I mean, it depends a as you say, er yeah I mean it does depend that. +Cos if, if you, if you, if you wanted to you could always utilize all the dance floor area tables and things, you know. +If you had that kind of function that you you know +Mm. +Makes it difficult to do a big functions though in here with that stage. +Oh yeah. +You know, to set out +Yeah. +you co there's no way +Yeah it does. +you can set out for two hundred. +No. +No. +What we did do +And so +very well +Yeah. +erm we were we some of the jazz stuff, I mean +Yeah. +it it, it never worked in a sense that it wasn't commercially viable +No. +but things like Kenny Ball and that we'd had +Yeah. +and we had like the ta trestle tables in all these alcoves and people came and actually booked a meal +Yeah. +and, and, you had a meal and sat and watched the band and everything. +It wor i I mean for those it did work +Different sort of like +it did work. +Yeah. +Just +But +need the +you can see everywhere. +And it did +Put hot food +Yeah. +up at the back as well there. +Mm. +Have you actually ever seen round this place properly? +Not properly. +No I haven't really. +Whe whe where do you get to that round, round +No. +part? +No, you can't that's one of the do you wanna sta I'll just go and get the key so you can have a +Yeah, go on. +quick look in there. +I'll go up there. +Get your bearings. +Yeah. +It actually looks bigger looking that way than it does when you're up there looking back, I think. +Erm I'm thinking of atmosphere. +But if we if we carpet the two raised areas in a sort of attract hardwearing linoey type affect on there cos you can +What about the slipping? +you can dance. +Well you get +The carpet, don't it really up here? +No. +Well i it's been down since it opened so that's +Oh! +gotta be eight or nine years. +Mm! +It's done well then. +It's done well. +It was on +Yeah. +concrete +Yeah. +like. +Oh right. +So this is just, this is just virtually there, you can't get through that way anywhere? +No you can't, no. +Oh. +Right. +Like, so it's sort of self-contained in one +Yeah. +sense. +Er +Right. +So it'll have to be that one in there. +And +Oh! +So right. +Right. +When Trish had a do in here, her fortieth she let +A what? +er Trish had her fortieth birthday here. +She laid there's a tremendous amount of wasted space here really. +There is! +Erm +Ah! +This stage across. +Yeah. +She laid out in here and people just wandered in off the back end here. +Yeah. +But I mean we've always wanted to utilize this but we can't really we built that wall here and it's just a this is the back of the disco. +I mean al it's all, none of it's sort of +Determined wall. +determined walls, I mean, it's no no wall there at all. +I mean we put this up just +Yeah. +to break that +Yeah. +because this is the console bar. +Is that Cola? +It's for it's for the cellar, yeah. +This is nice and big innit? +Well it's not, I mean +Should think they've had quite a few . +Not bad. +Oh yeah! +Mm. +Obviously you've got a better eye tha than I have, but er +You wa er what you want in here is one tha is tha is what's e what's extraction like? +Is it good? +Fine. +You want a chair for over here for doing +Yeah. +American stuff. +Yeah, you do, yeah. +Do kebabs and everything. +Yeah. +We've got erm somewhere, a pizza oven. +Oh! +You, have you got a +Yeah. +pizza oven? +Yeah. +Yeah. +Right. +So that's alright. +I've enough afternoons . +Well, you won't need to do that now. +It's somewhere anyway, we've got +Jesus wept! +pizza oven. +What is it? +Ice making machine. +What's that, a dishwasher? +Glass washer, yeah. +Glass washer, I meant. +We've got er +Have you got one behind bar? +No. +There's not. +There int one behind the bar? +No. +Oh out in garden. +Oh right! +I see. +So basically they've gotta just tray it up +What you want is +tray it up here and then +yeah, here and then +bang it straight in. +Erm +Why's your bar so high? +I can't reach your pump . +Yeah. +Have you? +We like to keep the floor nice and sticky so the staff can't run away! +Oh I see. +Once they're behind here they're stuck all night. +Think you got some cleaning, you just want that back in. +Mm. +You know what I mean, it's got . +And all that up there. +Mm! +Now then, so you'd carpet them two +Yeah. +and then summat washed +Well you see, hardly anybody ever sa they don't really sit in this area, all they do is er, I mean, they only sit +Around the bar. +right at the end of the, you know +Yeah. +when it's full they'll sit on those two tables. +You were going to clear that area anyway, don't they? +Yeah. +I mean, everybody round here just stands or sits on those bar stools. +Mm. +Yeah. +When people first come in they go for the raised areas and sit down. +O +You have to see. +or they stand at the bar. +It's, and, and if you actually look on the actual area we're talking about, there's only one, two, three, four, there's only about half a dozen tables. +Yeah. +Which is, you know, at maximum you're gonna get twenty four people sat around there anyway. +So I think, in a way, it's erm a bit wasted carpeting it all. +Cos it's a big area +I do. +to carpet. +One, two, three +I mean the quotes we had ranged from sort of +Well you,wo did you look to change the carpet +eighteen to twenty seven. +because of the name on it? +Well yeah, and +You are? +and it's getting past it to be honest. +I mean, these metal strips are down there for the public entertainment license, they weren't gonna give us it because the carpet was lifting. +Yeah. +So I mean, not, weren't gonna give us it, but we had to do it for +Yeah. +you know, at the time. +Yeah. +And you can see like like there can you see straight in front of you there's a worn patch on the carpet, but there's er been a li a bit of a leak at some stage. +Oh right, I see. +There's one there. +I mean +Yeah. +if you've got it carpeted, once you got that you, you're you're stuck aren't you? +You know +Yeah. +you've either got I mean, we've either gotta put a table on top of it or +Yeah, that's it, or sit on there or get +Yeah. +somebody to stand with it +you know. +Yes. +Erm or replace the whole damn carpet. +I mean the carpet must have cost a fortune ! +Bloody hell! +It must, it must have been absolute arm and a leg. +Mm. +Absolute arm and a leg. +Er +But it it's not a bad size room in the sense that +No it int, no, it's, it is +in the sense that you can get three hundred in +Mm. +well we often get four hundred in if you're you know, I mean, just have the right +Mm. +party erm +How many you licensed for? +Three hundred. +Three. +But, you can get but a hundred people can have a decent atmosphere as well. +Mm. +You know, it +Well that, that's good you see +Yeah. +cos I mean some places that are fairly big th the, if you've got hundred in they just, it looks empty don't it? +No that's right. +That's right. +I mean +Erm +that's the Carlton's problem innit? +You know, if it, unless it gets +Ooh! +God! +Yeah. +unless he's got five hundred in yo yo you feel as if you're in a barn aircraft hanger. +Well that's right. +Mm. +But the sort of chromea and all that sort of lends itself to one of them aircraft things doesn't +Yeah. +it? +Yeah. +It does. +It does, yeah. +So you wouldn't have to spend a fortune on, on, on I mean it's only a matter of most of it's a matter of paint, and then hanging a few things up isn't it? +Change the atmosphere. +Well er, yeah well it is, but I think cos one, you've got to look at, oh a bit of a design as well a while you're at it you might as well just get one or two bits +Oh yeah. +Yeah. +you know +Yeah, yeah. +True. +Erm oh yeah. +One, two it's alright, I'm trying to think. +if you're gonna make all this into a dance floor and all the rest of it what's the be a er er er benefit of having a stage? +If all this is virtually gonna be it's virtually gonna be dance floor int it really? +Mm. +Well there is no benefit. +Cos if you didn't have that it'd make this room more viable in as much as erm, the point of view of doing doing catering and, functions and all the rest of it. +You can't, you couldn't say right we'll do a function for hundred and fifty and two hundred, and really to do, you've got to be looking to do a, a sit down function for two hundred +Right. +if you, because it's more than the Headway can do +Yeah. +comfortably. +And it's more than er, and you can certainly do a better job than the Carlton so I mean, you don't call, I mean, you don't call him any competition at all I don't but, you've got to look at being able to do functions for two hundred. +Mm. +Well two hundred is lost in the Carlton anyway int it? +Well it is, but having, yeah but with their +Are you talking about the Carlton or the Carlton Rooms? +I'm talking about the Carlton. +Right. +Not Chelstons. +Not Chelstons, right. +The Carlton up +Right. +here. +Yeah. +It, really and truthfully, like the Headway do plenty of functions and the rest of it but you can do a better job than Headway. +Mm. +No two ways about,wi it in a min in a . +But if you can do, if, if you can do a two hundred thing for sit down you're gonna be in among the functions. +Mm. +Definitely. +Plus the fact like you sa er like I say, if you're gonna have a dance floor in here there int any benefit about having the raised area is there? +No, that's very true. +And er, and it, it it makes a lot of difference actually. +I would have thought so. +Mm. +I mean, cos the bands can still set up can't they? +Oh yeah. +If they sit up here +Well you can do what, yeah. +Yeah. +But they still sit up there and they can still see them. +Mm. +And it's makes it a it makes it a different space, totally different. +Mm. +And like I say, if you're gonna carpet it er not carpet it, you're gonna cover it you might as well cover it totally. +Oh yeah. +Well +I wonder what you'd use though? +You ca you're gonna, you're gonna cover it, I mean we've got to re +You've gotta cover that anyway. +we've got to re-cover that +That's what +stage anyway. +So you're not so all you're +So +doing is taking that out, but +Yeah. +surely in a lot of ways it might makes all the difference Barry. +Mm. +Makes it and it makes in a way so that it, it's not a +Well you can create a dance floor area with tables and chairs. +Yeah, course you can. +All you do is just put them round there. +Just put them round. +I mean that's all we did in the Sugar House +Well that's terrific! +they've got er actual flat floors. +Get rid of all that and you have got more table area because i they can sort of sit in th in the, the +Yeah. +gangway +Yeah. +you know, so I think, I think that would it's alright I just keep freezing up. +Do you wanna sit in there rather than +No my, I'm better stood here. +Oh. +No I'm better stood here. +But I've got to I do this you know, I just sit and look. +Mm. +Oh no, I don't stand a lot. +Well that's but I've, I've got to er, so I think definitely that wants to come out. +Erm and er +Because, I mean, if you ever got anything you really need a little, you could always bring a little stage in. +Well Yeah. +Staging's no problem is +No. +it? +No. +You know +I mean +now we need erm alright we're gonna, we'll keep these mirrors and everything. +Them mirror tiles and everything. +I should think so. +They cost us a fortune! +Cos I mean them marked . +I nearly ca what they call it? +Aren't they? +Mm. +Called the . +Er, it's just that re-seating that just on that middle one actually, that's bad int it? +Mm. +Well I've,yo you need to redo the, the fixed seating. +I mean, some of it o you'll get away with, but generally you re you need to recover it, it's going all over the place and it +What if you could get something with stars and stripes on? +Mm. +Yes, but it's dirt on it. +The trouble with the American red, it's a, it's, it's not a maroon it's a +No, it's +bright pillar box type +Mm. +red innit? +Yes. +You know it's +Oh my God! +You don't want to +So if anybody, if anybody spills anything on it or whatever +Mm. +it's gonna show like a . +Yeah. +Well that's one's left, cos that one, well it's better than green when it's down isn't it? +Mm. +But I thi +I know that sort of creates that atmosphere there but I think erm sorry! +Go on. +Get them lamps down, I think. +Cos I mean,yo you can easily chop them off and put summat else smaller on can't you with lamps on? +Mm. +If you want to create that sort of an atmosphere. +Are we there int a door is there from kitchen to there? +Well it's +There's just a hatch which is alright +Yeah. +because then well that'll just do service from there, but the only trouble about that is that . +Anyway, not to worry. +Alright. +Round again then. +Nay problem. +I mean, if you've got a function you haven't got that much of bar trade +No, but +in the sense that +No. +being busy have you? +No. +You know. +No. +No. +And is erm yeah I think that'd make all the difference if that comes out. +You can soon redo the D J's little er +Oh yeah. +No, I think you'd leave the D J's +Oh yeah, but I mean you can soon sort of make it so that it's er +Oh yeah, well Jean keeps buying +it's extended. +Jean keeps,Jean keeps buying these this atrocious cheap wallpaper and sticking it everywhere ! +Oh my God! +Look at that ! +Well yeah, it looks erm you can put same thing up, but properly. +Oh yeah. +Yeah. +Erm that's that +Well on that you could do something stars and stripesey all round there couldn't you? +Yeah you could. +Yeah. +Yeah. +No problem. +Sort of have it all over Who is it's gonna come and see me on Monday? +Er Websters? +Wilsons? +Woodbinder? +Yeah. +Yeah. +Erm throwing money about a bit. +You don't wanna throw about. +Anyway, it, it, it, it, it's just they're gonna, gonna come and see me, gonna bring me a list of what they have. +The +Right. +and all that. +Oh right. +Yeah. +Erm they do erm, I'll tell you what they do. +They've got they do Woodbinder obviously. +Yeah. +They put the new, new . +Woodbinder long neck +or summat in bottles. +Mm. +Wish I could find my glasses she said. +Right! +Ca er er Miller Lite,Kor or summat +Yeah. +Kronenburg wha Sixteen Sixty Four. +Mm. +Carlsberg and Carlsb o is it export, that +Yeah. +strong stuff? +Hoffmeister Holsten and Holsten Export, er, Michelob tha but, he's gonna bring me a +Mm. +Tiger +Right. +beer or summat. +Oh yes, I've heard of that. +Yeah. +They do, they +Well Co , Miller and Bud are all American beer. +Yeah. +Well that's what he said. +Erm but they John Smith range as well you see. +Yeah. +Cos that's Miller Lite int it? +Erm so he's coming on, he's coming for his, he's bringing the on Monday. +Nice lad him. +Yeah. +Really nice lad. +So erm I went to, where is it you said? +Couldn't find one American cookery book. +Well that int true, I could find one and it were twenty seven pounds fifty so I left it was, full of pretty pictures! +Isn't that a lot? +Yeah. +But I found some barbecue recipes and all that that'd be good. +Yeah, I mean, the other thing on, on American of course, is you can do all that Cajun stuff can't you? +Yeah, that's, that's, yes, that's what I wanna +And New Orleans area, you know. +that's what I thought because I've got erm I've got a somewhere, I've got four hundred and some cookery book! +Oh. +I've never been interested in American stuff. +Well Cajun stuff and all that I thought, and then there's them you can do some long kebabs and all that, that's why if we get one of them charcoal grills that you can pa shoo,shee shoo . +You know, not er all easy. +And, and if you're gonna do burgers we'll do proper burgers, you know not . +But you can do like, you can do vegetarian burgers and all sorts. +So erm is that paper up there? +Yeah. +Look erm could do with being , having a doorway across back of here couldn't they? +Oh! +I don't know though bu er, opening and shutting doors don't appeal to me when you . +No. +No. +True. +Looks nice but +Yeah I mean this looks almost like a school but I mean +Well, no, well, I thi but I think some, some you're better with two shelves really. +In, in a way for for quick, quick +Well nowadays, nowadays everybody wants two drinks anyway don't +Yeah. +they? +I mean it's not like +No, but, but +it used to be a +Yeah. +everybody wanted warm +When you think about if you just serving two or three hundred to keep opening and shutting bloody cupboard doors, erm, fridge doors, it's no good. +Chill's best, I think anyway. +Mm. +So erm so, yeah, right, I've got oh! +Yeah, I thi yeah I think you're right actually. +You need to get rid of that and it's and create a dance floor +Yeah, create +what, and what I'd do is I'd put a few more spots in +Yes. +no, those spots around +Yeah. +there shining on the +Yeah. +floor, put some round the back so +Yeah. +you actually just use +Yeah. +see, but I er, I think creative use of spotlights is better than, than specialized lighting effects, which A, cost a fortune, but B +And you get out of +as soon as you've seen them they're out of date. +Well that's it. +That's right. +Cos they're only effective one time, that's the first time you see them. +, yeah. +After that, it's +And we don't want to fork, I mean, +No. +No. +So erm I mean you can just use coloured spots it in, I mean, those at the moment are just literally stage spots, all they are i are on, and on dim +Oh right. +Yeah. +then you can dim them up or whatever +Yeah, I have them +but they can't flash +No. +so what we need is a small unit in there and, and, I mean, it's only two or three hundred quid er, and a few erm +Most places where erm, you know they've got them in that, where you go to +Yeah. +you can pick stuff up for next to nowt. +Just have it ready- made, say you want it for +Yeah. +Well, marvellous! +But I think er er yeah I think that's definite, take that out, it really, it really would make the difference to erm +Yeah it would, actually, thinking about it. +Would, it'd make it it'd make it well, it'd just transform it, I mean, just no two ways about it, I think. +You've got that erm what time's that chap coming, half past three? +Yeah. +Well I think er is this, alright if I look in here or +Yeah, course. +I'll just get my erm +Yeah, I mean i it's keep on walking round till you get familiar with it. +Yeah, well that, I mean, I just, yeah, cos I need +In +to +in there is staff toilets and your spirit store. +Oh. +Yeah, where's thingy? +Food store in here. +Where, where +And it's locked. +yeah, but where's erm +Cellar? +Yeah. +Down below the bottom. +Yeah. +Right down, and how, do you have to go outside to get to it? +That's a bit silly! +It's a pain in the neck! +But it's er +Well that's how it is at the minute innit? +So +But, now, Volks actually looked at erm buildi putting a lift in and building a lift to it. +Oh! +You can't be doing with that. +I mean but okay, well all it means is, you get twen yo once you start getting busy you get twenty twos not elevens. +I mean +And thirty sixes eventually . +And thirty sixes that's right. +Yeah. +But er we've got three stand up freezers and the +Yeah, you could have loads, there's, there's loads of room if you, could ge if you, if you bring that do it in here +In the chest freezer. +freezer. +Chest those are, those are freezers. +That's +Good spaces. +that's a chest freezer. +Yeah well +So you got three standing, one chest, and a fridge. +Oh there's loads of room in there. +Yeah. +And then it's er +That's the lift down into the cellar. +I'm not riding down in that! +So, she could send, you can send stuff down in that can you? +Yeah, it takes erm you can get half a dozen crates in you could get eleven gallon if you wanted. +Oh aye. +Cos you'll have to keep your beer down there won't you? +Yeah. +Are there any way I can , oh mind you, you've to get it up anyway haven't you? +Yes. +You see look lots of people'll write on there won't they? +Yeah. +Oh yeah. +That's right. +Better, just, you just, in sa well I don't mean better but it just makes just the difference now so what can I say?. +National Scutters. +That's er, from a rally. +Oh yeah! +Oh right. +Association of Rallies . +Right. +I don't think that looks different like that. +So that's so big. +See the but er, this room drives me up the wall! +I mean I +Go on, tell me again. +Is that back of stage? +This is back of the stage. +And back of disco. +Yeah, back o back a no it's the D J +This is the back this is, the D J is here +Oh right! +Yes. +This is just a back wall that is +So really, if we got shot of all that cos really, you want to make another hatch +Give it a bit more room. +Yeah. +Yeah. +Which then would make +Yeah.. +Oh my God! +Done it again! +I thought I'm hearing yeah, you could make a ra er you can make another hatch. +Yeah, could but +It should erm +Or you can do all these round here. +Yeah. +And you could have this for your preparation area if you want. +Yeah. +Cos when er side int it? +It's just happened to er you're gonna have to get some what they call it? +The things showing round there them . +You don't want it +I don't smoke. +Oh well they're not, I mean, they're not put out for +Yeah, it's a big . +Oh!? +Oh! +Have to be really aren't they? +Mm. +Right there's a so I mean say +I mean at the moment all the food is is protecting the license cos you've got to do food, food up to two o'clock. +You've got to have food available. +Oh yeah, definitely. +Yeah. +So I mean, we're just going through the motions at the moment, I mean, quite hone +But you have food? +Yeah. +But I mean quite honestly we haven't +No, that's a, that's, right, but I mean that's neither here nor there is it? +No. +But you see, you've got the potential to do a big opera a bigger operation. +Mm. +You see, and er +Well that's where, I mean, you can make money on the food sometimes can't you? +And that's, that's where you've got +Make the money, yeah. +And this is why takes to get all this down and get get a location better than the Carlton for the, I mean, alright, we aren't gonna be able to do the three or four hundred, but then we +No, no. +I can't imagine anything worse than doing a function for three or four because by the, by the laws of average how the hell are you gonna get it out to them all as it should be? +I mean,de a I, I think he doesn't do a bad job on to be fair +No, he doesn't. +I mean he does the big functions and he doesn't do a bad job +No he doesn't. +he's better than he was a few years ago and +Ah yeah. +and, and +Oh yeah, definitely +he's +yeah. +A he's I think Rob gets a bit ups a bit wound up because there's no +I tell you what amazes me, Mary, he takes, he can take a conference, when they have a big do he puts them there for the, you know for their dinner or whatever they +Yeah. +got there. +And, he's, she s keeps on at him all the time, he's never taken a photograph of the place laid out for a big dinner. +So she keeps sort of saying well of course, er, you're taking an organizer round the disco aren't you? +You're like, you know, he's stood in the disco and you go to him +Yeah. +well it's all laid +Yeah. +out. +Well they'd like, I'd like to know +They've gotta imagine it, you ought to have like a pull +Yeah. +a photograph and say oomph! +Say that we want it set up in here with a photograph and that wants to be on the thing outsi +Yeah. +in the cape outside. +Yeah. +Yeah. +Erm but to do, but like I say, if you've got somewhere that could just er er you see, cos I mean what, the most we can do is fifty +Mm. +down there. +That's right. +Then er which is nice,i it forty's lovely! +Forty's absolutely lovely to do. +And that, and that's it, but I mean, to do, to have somewhere to do two hundred like this would be absolutely incredible! +Could always do small weddings down there and, and then the big do +Mm. +at night up here. +That'd make that just totally makes it different. +I want to just go and have a look in them you see if you've well anyway Well erm, I might get to a certain extent. +Cos you're nearly +Yeah. +aren't you? +Mm. +Again, this is look it's the same as this. +Shit! +Well where's that go? +That's the fire escape down to outside. +Oh so you couldn't you'd have to leave them +No you can't, no you can't, no. +But that's that area we were looking at. +Either side of the disco console. +That's the passageway we just walked down. +And that's the area you were banging. +Oh that's where I were banging on wall? +Yeah. +Right. +Yeah. +Well that'd be fine because then it means that you've got either you've got your back in +Mm. +and out, or whichever way +Yeah. +round you +Yeah. +want to do it. +So that fine, all this comes down. +And you can still sort of ma make it elevated up this really nice and +Mm. +whatever. +That's that wallpaper int it? +Yeah ! +Right, so this is +It's actually you know, if you took the time you make a tremendous, it'd make a tremendous big area wouldn't it? +Brilliant! +No messing! +Right, depends what the and quite honestly, if you bring these down and make them a bit more romantic +Yeah. +you know. +God knows what they'll get up to! +Well I a don't give a bugger, me! +I aren't bothered for them. +Fifteen there's fifteen there and whatever they need here. +Thirty seven. +See you could seat fifty on here. +Yeah. +I, I think I ca I, once upon a time I did on the fixed seating for, for I think you could get about a hundred and twenty round +Yeah. +there. +O as it is? +Yeah. +As it is. +Yeah. +Packed out. +Er +But you see the other thing, the other thing that er that's worth, when you've had the smaller dos, you know +Mm. +sort of even, even like sixty, eighty people you can lay one of these raised areas out as the big cold buffet area +Oh the buffet, yeah. +Yeah. +which kills a lot +Yeah. +of space in the club. +Yeah. +The only thing that worries me about taking that out is that you then create a massive empty space, if you have got +No you don't. +sixty, seventy people you have to then +No you don't because what you do is, you do it down there. +Well +And this is off +Yeah. +innit? +Yeah. +Then you go back and sit up there. +That's it. +Yeah. +Yeah. +You do it down there, and this is erm if you did it over there it would look absolutely dreadful! +You do it down there, you set it up in the middle and you set it up really nice and cosy. +Mm. +And then er +We got a lot, we got a, quite a lot of these little blue tables so you could actually +Yeah. +surround the dance floors +Oh yes. +No, no +but we +messing. +push, you know, push people into the dance floor so they're there anyway. +Yeah, and you make a totally, you make a totally different erm it's, it in one sort of minor operation if you like, alright, minor to a +Mm. +certain extent, you've totally transformed it Barry. +Mm. +And it, it +That's right. +definitely looks so different. +I mean, even if you didn't do anything else. +Mm. +But I think erm, you've just got to er, we've just got to er gerrit sorted. +It, it, it int gonna take much sorting and get the you know +Mm. +We could use that chrome railing around +Well you co +area +yeah you could use that chrome railing elsewhere, we could +Mm. +you know. +I don't think you, you've, you've got to try in a way not to shut it off too much erm and yet it,i you've just got to sort of be able to not shut it off but sort of create different areas +Mm. +within one big area i i if you can and I think shutting things, I think putting trellising up to, not trellising but that sort of thing, to a certain extent at the minute we don't need and I think I'll have to come a time er too when it's open as well to get +Now,wha what I was just thinking of +Yes. +But it could be just on a Saturday and Sun +is it, if you, if you're using, if you're gonna use it as a pub as well +Mm. +on a Saturday and a Sunday +Mm. +which I think you can do with Amer certainly in the summer season if you Americanize it and all that and, and just, well I mean, we, we did +You could have a glorious MacDonalds couldn't you? +Yeah. +That's right. +Then, you know you wanna start from that and build back out bits +Yeah. +you know +Definitely +cos I mean if they walked into here on stood on that bar hundred and twenty people +Well actually you don't want them, you want them in here and bar's there. +Well that's right. +And that's the bar they use. +Yeah. +Yeah. +That's right. +You don't sort of use +No we have that closed and +Yeah. +and try and sort +Yeah. +of shutter it off in some +Yeah. +way. +I mean maybe +Well I think +maybe even getting literally shutters rather than those grills. +And then you can +No, I think, I think, I think +I tell you what we had Laura, Jean's daughter had erm a nurses' dinner here it was about,the they wanted to come on a, on a disco night but +Mm. +they wanted a meal beforehand +Yeah. +Yeah. +so we did like a meal for, I think there was about thirty of them +Yeah. +and we put them onto that area +Yeah. +and er and I said to Laura, ah I know, I'll put so I'll, I'll, I'll put something on the big screen so you know, some videos whatever. +I said, ooh! +I'll tell you what, I've got Live Aid all taped on you know, from years ago +Mm. +so she said oh that'll be good! +So I put Live Aid on. +Course, I'm sat in the office like this, and they're all sitting down to their lovely fo five course meal and of course great! +First couple of bands on, then it stops and shows about quarter of an hour starving kids ! +Oh! +I know, yeah. +That +And I went, I went oh no! +I had to leave +Yeah. +it off . +Yeah. +So, so that's like a video thing? +Yeah. +Or T V. +You can have, you can have normal T V on there +Yeah. +or video. +Erm +So is that where it comes from up there? +It all comes from, yeah. +Yeah. +Well it's controlled ba back in there, that's where +Oh right. +it's connected from. +Yeah. +Right. +And you can actually see it from everywhere in the club except for that corner there. +What, seen, what have you been to that Liberti is it Liberties by the town church? +Have you been in there? +No, I haven't been in there. +I mi ha I'll, I'll, you ought to go in. +I'd like to go actually. +Yeah. +Yeah, I must, I must have been, I haven't, no I haven't been. +I mean, I've been in there when it unless he's drastically altered it +it only used to hold about a hundred people. +It was only licensed for a hundred people. +It's a video thing int it? +Yeah. +Yeah. +Isn't it? +I don't know what he's done inside, but yeah I like that. +I has he still got it then or is it,i re oh receiver Steve that got it +I'm not sure. +ain't it? +Yeah. +Mi I'm not sure. +And Bob is taking Churchills over this week +That's right. +is he? +Is he? +Is it this week? +I knew he was getting it. +He'll be ups absolutely, he must be absolutely +No he's just come back from Tunisia on holiday so he'll need it. +that I'd need it, he'll be going in, in with bloody mob if I'd have done it. +Stupid he is! +What did Fred talk him into all this for the blame won't he? +Talking him into there's not,no they don't got to be doing meals or owt upstairs. +No. +Mind you, then maybe that comes with time of year, mind you, I'm not doing any either. +So +Having said that I, you know, I mean,i i i exc i if he's not gonna do that +Well even if he +or even if he, even if he is doing that he's not gonna, he's not gonna +I mean, cos you've gotta do it better than him. +do it very well. +Erm +But I think if, if same as er +Carlton is far too big for the Abbey! +I mean, like our cricket club dinner, I mean we have it's usually between sort of eighty, and a hundred and twenty people, but +Mm. +I mean we must, they must spend twenty quid a head at the bar +Mm. +at least. +We could get them here nicely. +Yeah. +Be absolutely . +But we, but we go to the Carlton, well so +Mm. +I've been to. +I mean, we've been all round but the last three years we've stayed at Carlton +Mm. +I said, he's done a pretty good job. +Yeah. +But there's no reason why you don't do you know +But I, I tell you, really, you'd, you'd and something different because I mean like you go to the Headway and it's just the same +Yeah. +the beer's bloody awful! +Well the other thing that's really good is, cos you've all got that set up cos it is a disco +Yeah. +you don't have to upset people +Charge it i +and +No! +bring gear in while they're eating and be setting +No, no, no, no, no. +up and +No, no messing about, no. +testing the equipment and all that sort of stuff. +No, no, no. +No you see it's all there. +I think +The D J +that's +plays background music while you're eating +While you're eating. +and then winds it up when you +Yeah. +when you want, you know. +When you want, yeah. +Mm. +Yeah. +It makes makes it you know and then we jus you just ah, have, we'll just have, I mean ceiling's right in blue, so I mean +Mm. +you know. +What sort of paint is it that? +Well these damn, these bloody tiles cost a fortune! +They say just I mean we,yo th there's bits and pieces of like you know +Yeah, I mean +like you have to redo some of tiles but a lot of them . +Er, excuse me ! +Ooh! +Pardon me. +And even things like the cocktail side I mean, although you never use it, it's a bit of a joke, I mean it actually fits into American bit dunnit? +Ah yeah, it's Americanified, yeah, course it, well you can make co you could make cocktails +Oh I know you could, yeah. +without no messing couldn't you? +Not expensive ones either. +Mm. +Yeah, could have one of these. +Manhattan Transfers are nice though. +That, I remembered what they call that place at Whitecross, they call Damn Yankee. +I'm going to erm +Whitecross? +At Guiseley. +Oh! +I'm gonna, next door to our Ramsden's Fish and Chip shop. +Oh, oh is it? +Well what I'm gonna do is, I'm go +He's opened one in London at Heathrow Airport. +Yeah. +There's one in Blackpool now. +Is there? +They used to be absolutely beautiful there but they're crap now! +Well that's +or whatever it is. +That's the problem innit? +I mean, one,yo yo be you get good because of the reputation of doing something and, and the one person +And, and one person doing it, yeah. +doing it and then because you're good everybody comes and you cease to do it, you're upstairs doing the books instead +Mm. +No, not me +and you employ staff. +sunshine! +I +Ah +don't do books. +No, but you know what I mean, I mean you get +Rob does the books. +pulled away from the +Mm. +actual +Yes. +what you're good at +Yes. +onto other staff. +And it's very difficult to get other people to do it like you want it. +Oh yeah. +That's right. +So if we got erm yeah, so, yeah that I'll, I'll erm I'll get Brenda to go get me a rec erm, a menu and send me it. +Cos more you get it's easier to +Is it? +Bloody hell it's cold! +I know. +Yeah. +Get in erm +Hugh do you know Anne? +Anne +Yeah. +Hughey. +Yeah, we've met, we, we meet on a Friday night love don't we? +When there's only me in company that's sober. +Yeah, she comes, she comes up, yeah. +Yeah. +Wha what? +No, er customers Friday, I didn't mean er +Yeah. +Anne's just saying we erm ought to pull that whole sta dance floor out and have it all flat floored. +Flat. +Yeah. +And you could then do something that's +That's more American anyway. +Yeah. +Yeah. +And, I mean you can create a dance floor by the tables and just lighting round it. +I mean that's all it, as I say, I don't know why I didn't think of it cos in the she well I do know why I didn't think of +Why don't we make that like a rebel fort? +That would be that +Like the Alamo you mean? +Yeah. +The thing blows out of it? +Yeah. +Arrows stuck in it! +Are we erm +Oh no not at all. +No, that isn't what I, no, no, no +No, no. +Yeah I know. +But as I say, if you took that out you create a massive empty space then. +Yeah, well i it makes it, it +then you can +makes it so that you can, you see the other thing what's your name? +Hughey again? +Hugh, Hugh, yeah. +Oh right. +Well we were just thinking about functions you see +Yeah. +well as it is now you, you know, you really don't wanna be half of them up there and half of them down here on a table. +And you could get so many in on the thing. +I think you have, I, I sort of. +And then just lino the whole floor. +Cos, well the floor can be a disco anyway, like, you know. +It's not a disco, disco, you know what I mean? +You know +No. +No. +No. +No. +I mean lin +Yeah, something +I me +nearly +for the sake of, for the sake of a few bands that we do, I mean most of the bands on the local level are used to playing in pubs so they just had to play on the floor anyway and the rest of it +Well it's a bloody ego who needs the stage . +And any, any major names you could always, if you need, if it was that big yo and important +They'd be at the wouldn't they? +No, but +Well that'd be +No but I mean you could get a a stage in +Pull a stage in. +stage in from across the er across the way. +Just temporary +Yeah. +staging that's put in and cast away. +Well where do you find that? +That break and special tie it at the back of there? +Yeah. +Doesn't make sense but oh I dunno. +I know ! +I dunno you can't see his head +my little sweetie pie! +The horrible little int there? +Well, you know, once he, once he's once he's resigned himself to not getting this back. +Is there no chance of it? +What, of him getting this back? +No. +Not now,no not +Pigs can fly can they! +now, not Elliel. +Da I mean once he sort of re I mean that's why all the fuss with Jean stopped because that +Yeah, but a thing like +Was it? +that is, it's just that Mr who really didn't know anything from his and needle and thread was stirring the shit! +No, she's been getting enough of that. +But once he's, once he's resigned himself to that, he's then gotta look at that operation next door and he must be losing money hand over fist for the amount of space it is. +That's right. +He to take out all these walls out, right the way back +And is it just +and it's as big as this. +And you've got +Back to that wall +Mhm. +Mm. +I mean it's a co it's almost a bloody conference centre to be honest! +Mind you, though +You could, you could seat if you did, sort of classroom seating in there a, room this size in that, er, you could, you could probably seat six hundred people. +Not as many as the Dome. +Even, at six hundred. +Not a quarter. +Yeah. +I mean it's a Dome and a bit. +I told Angie today that we're gonna extend. +Oh did you? +Yeah. +He said he could do them himself because I'm not having . +They were gonna charge erm +Mention it. +Oh. +Well be fucking . +Yeah, well, the tro he sa +Lights. +It's the lighting isn't it? +So erm +Mm. +Need to get a whole batch of these ti +Mm? +we need to get a whole batch of these tiles get them all sorted out. +Who? +These tiles. +Yeah? +Cos they're +That's what +multi +deaf in it +Oh are you? +Yeah I am actually. +Ha +Hi +I can't hear you, I can't hear men usually. +It's only, it's only screaming women I can hear! +Well we er +No but it's really embarrassing sometimes cos I, I have to look at men cos +Yeah. +when they're talking som I'm sure they think I'm bloody crazy! +And read their lips. +And that I'm in love with him or something ! +Yeah. +Yeah, no, I can't understand that! +No just +Erm, no we need, we need to get a whole load of ne er tiles cos the whole club wants re-tiling, not re-tiling but there's a whole area, areas and that. +And po and polystyrene +And and, they're the wrong, you know, if you're gonna, if you're gonna redecorate the whole thing you need to erm you need to, you know. +Yeah. +Well yeah +You don't need +No, what I said. +three diff four different kinds of blue in the roof and things like that. +Well not really. +They're awful things to paint aren't they? +A do you do them rounds or what,spra can't you spray them? +Hughey does them, I don't know. +How do you do them? +How do you do them? +Just stick the brush on them. +You have +Right. +to work with what you've got. +Well that's true. +A man's only as good as the +Yes I know. +tools he's given. +Yeah. +Oh yeah, I quite like that idea with them all like that. +What? +Yes, definitely. +I think the punters would appreciate it as well. +Yeah. +Hello! +Yeah. +No, not yet, yeah. +Okay. +Oh right. +That's right. +Yes it is, three thirty. +Okay. +It's just a matter of er,i I mean all we need to do is, is, is sort out a sort of formal agreement with Elliel that, you know, and how, how the management company or the limited company's going to sort of manage the place and th then we'll er got to, you know, we've got two people who've got a, a very successful business they're actually drinks' suppliers, Morecambe Bay Wines and Spirits er, who are gonna come in and have er they'll sign the cheque for the rent there and then, I mean it's er it's a matter of just th you know, all it is is, is they're saying well, you know what actually is the formal arrangement? +And we're sort of saying, we haven't actually got round to formalizing it yet. +Er Mm. +Right. +Right. +Yes. +Yeah. +Erm er, well Jean's got the exact figures, er, she's, she's done it all, she's got it all, all down for, for, for this afternoon. +Erm, I don't know, I've written it down. +And th on the cherish you and whatever else and th erm, I mean we've already got a situation where we've got erm through Peter and David, the other two, I mean we've got erm erm two or three breweries who are quite willing to erm to give us quite a substantial amount of money not as loans, as write-offs against barrelage erm which means that we don't have any repayments to make etcetera. +So they're effectively sort of grants and ye in, in that way. +Erm mm, no, you just play it,yo well, you he yes and no, I mean i er you, you, you were ge you were getting in pra i the equivalent of thirty pound a barrel discount erm, which is probably as much as you could er could get, er in, in in a free free house any, er except that you've got, you know, fifteen, twenty thousand pounds up front as a payment to you. +Erm the company is Morecambe Bay Wines and Spirits. +Erm and this is going to sound stupid but I don't know their second names. +Peter and David are the two erm they're up to yeah. +Right. +Okay. +Erm it's just to two of them and er +Well that, but your main areas will be gonna be before. +So +What? +we're just saying main area's +You ought to save them wooden type of things for it. +You know the +Yeah. +Yeah. +Should have bought them for . +Ve er, yeah, I mean it's, it's +Are they expensive though? +expensive, it is very expensive. +Well you could have your dance floor, actual dance floor whatever, couldn't you? +And then something +Mm. +Well it's +You can make it different like and make it sort of still a dance area. +Yeah. +Something like they have at Chapel . +Yeah, what have they got down in there? +Just the wooden floor. +It's just, just a little, a little sort of parquet +Small +flooring type of thing. +Oh! +That type of floor, yeah. +And carpet all round it and just a +Oh it's carpet is it round +Yeah. +it? +But it's only a tiny area +Yeah but +isn't it? +Yeah. +But as I say, in the Sugar House so we I mean, we've ju we, all we did was, was we the mass the big central area we just literally sort of lino type floor and carpeted round the edges +Round the edge. +and into the bar area. +And it's a ma I mean you get four hundred people on the dance floor in the Sugar House. +Erm +Where is this Sugar House? +It's in erm +In Lancaster? +behind Waring and Gillow. +How do you get to that? +Say the rest of us didn't know where it was. +Up, up the alleyway by the Yorkshire, you got Yorkshire House there +Ah! +Yes. +Waring and Gillow, and it's up that alleyway there. +Oh is it in there? +It's, it was the architects' department erm, till they go like you know, till they Palatine Hall erm, it used to be the architects' department. +We bought it off the city, well Michelin bought it off the city council and they gazumped us and erm but we, we have tables and chairs onto the dance floor on other nights and just pull them back when it's clear +Yes. +Saturday night there's gonna +Yeah. +be a thousand people in. +That's how we used to do it. +Ah yeah. +So er can they get, yeah, they get eleven, twelve +How many's ? +Er I think they le it's nine hundred +The +isn't it? +Is the like, legal limit. +They've, they put like twelve, thirteen +on a night. +they've put twelve, thirteen hundred in. +But, when, when they can but you've ju i in the Empire if you, if you've I don't know actually,i before they before they messed about with all the raised seating and everything, if it had been just left open like the Old Floral Hall, like it was you'd have got seventeen +I know. +eighteen hundred in. +With a balcony. +Erm I mean as an ol as the Old Floral Hall they must have had +Mm mm. +they must have been putting two thousand in you know +Yeah. +in those days. +Yeah. +Yeah. +Well I mean, they'll all be packed up in the bars upstairs wouldn't they, and everything +Yeah. +you know, leaning over the balcony and all that sort of er +Yeah. +Mm. +But I'd er, I'd you know the way they've, the way they've got it now I don't, I don't know. +Well +But, you know i I mean actually the other, the other aspect of it Anne if you, if you pull this out you could be talking about hosting small conferences and that +Yeah. +couldn't you? +Definitely. +Cos if you're looking at a two hundred capacity conference for er +Yeah. +Easy-peasy! +No messing! +Ma that, that just makes the total picture just different altogether. +So right so that's that little job +You +sorted out. +probably need to +I'm +get +I'm gonna play with that and see what +probably need to get Ken's per +we can do with it then. +probably need to get Ken's permission! +Who? +Mr . +Ken's permission? +What for? +Structural alterations. +What for? +For that? +Mind you,act actually +I've gotta be catched I won't actually do it I'll just come in run a mo just give it complete customers and and help +they'll say well you, it's awful, you're awfully sorry but it's . +On what? +Actually th from the original structure, I mean, it's, it's, it was half that size anyway. +Mm. +Well as I say, you can see where it was, it's that sort of diamond +Well why do you es +I think. +did you have get his, well it int structural is it? +No. +I wouldn't +No, it int because structural's walls. +Oh that's get his permission for nothing! +Well he won't know I don't I don't think he dare show +At the moment. +his face at moment, he hadn't been anywhere round to, since all this happened before Christmas. +Obnoxious little man int he? +He's like a ferret! +Mm. +I get on very well with him though. +So what is so there's nothing to the other side, just apart from this big room? +Yeah. +But, and a bar. +What, and that in there? +Yeah. +So that's that one? +There's a massive room with twelve snooker, twelve snooker tables +Well, yeah, well, well +in. +er just maybe the size of this. +Right. +It is the size +Well, no +of this. +It is exactly +Well I mean +eh? +Yeah. +It is the size of this, yeah. +Yeah. +Right. +So we'll want +And what they've, what they've got, they've got the bar in a far bottom corner +You used to go in to play snooker didn't you? +I did. +Disco nights. +When we have a when we were talking to them and we had the door through and my snooker got really good. +Mm. +We did, we had a snooker table at home and my snooker will never get good. +I used to end up hitting them like a golf ball! +Used to go bloody berserk! +Good with iron and everything you know. +Oh. +Them were the days. +Mm. +I hated it! +What? +When you were at ? +Do you fancy a quick game then? +No. +. +Yeah. +Might do in a minute. +Well I shall go because if that fella's been from, if that fella said I didn't have a job I'll be jumping up and down like a what d'ya call it! +Oh alright. +Okay. +I'm, I'm going to erm we'll make that into something American. +But I don't know what. +Have to think of that. +We do we will, I'm just saying we do wanna get into cocktail and +Ranch House. +Oh. +Eh? +Said a Ranch House from . +Sod off! +No we don't wanna be looking at +You see some fucking morons we get in! +No, we wanna be +That's who we need to advise us don't we? +We need Geoffrey along to advise us. +Yeah. +Geoffrey, how would you +Mm. +how do you Americanize this? +Bastards stealing our customers last night! +Yeah . +Yeah. +Criticizing a scooterist +Where's my customers? +Criticizing a scooterist don't want them in town and then put functions on and cheap beer for them when they come. +Well they do that don't they? +I mean, they're all you know. +Supposed to be four hundred in the Ranch House last night. +On the ground like. +We need lo we needs lots of piles of steaming horse manure and things don't we around and +stuff like that? +Gotta get it right. +No! +That's for Frontier Land. +We are +we are erm +Thought it was hardly . +We're Boston. +Yeah definite . +That's right. +We're near Boston. +Yeah. +Cheers. +Yeah. +Yeah! +No. +Why? +Does it +Punters wouldn't go, go for it. +No. +No I don't, no, no, no, no, no, but I know it wants to be erm +Eh! +Have you seen the new rules on er bar staff? +No. +They're not allowed to smoke. +Oh yeah. +No, you're not. +No, no, no. +No. +Full stop? +Anywhere. +Yeah. +Not, you can't even wander outside +So I go doo doo doo doo doo. +That's right. +And, you've gotta wear gloves to use the till. +You what? +You can't ha you can't handle money and +And serve +pull pints. +Who says that? +This is Health and Environment, it's a new +When's it in operation. +Er er, I don't know actually. +I've got it in Disco Club Mirror, it's the front page out the +Oh I couldn't have that! +Grantham . +They're treating ba +Got to have a look at this. +they're treating alcohol as food. +Yeah. +So all the hygiene things on food apply to alcohol. +Oh I know that. +So you can't handle, you can't handle +You're gonna have to have somebody else to take the money won't you? +Fucking cashier. +You'll have to have a cashier. +. +You can't do it though. +You can't have,yo it'd mean one to serve and one take the money. +It's fucking ridiculous! +Say if you're, if you're really busy at the bar just taking your gloves off and fucking putting them on. +Oh aye you're gonna do it aren't you! +Well what we'll do is we'll do, we'll just have a pump at the side of the till. +Well you +There's punters on the door ! +Yeah, you know like +Fucking ! +you know like it is. +Oh no it isn't! +You wanna go ! +Alright then. +Or nuclear license opens +No, just ask them if it's effective with your license just, you know, sort of as you come +Mind you, one +from the sale. +Vo Volks Volks took them +We're sterilizing the bar with those. +Volks took them into, not Volks, er what they called? +Somebody took me to see one of their pubs in Liverpool it was wonderful! +Where the shutters are +Yeah. +all, just hardboard like that, with just a little O like that and you, you, you shout a pint of beer and you pushed your money through and then a beer ca came out the other side ! +Bet it was erm +It was rough! +Yeah ! +Waste of time though innit? +It was a bit of a rough area. +What type of beer are you getting! +No, and a pint of sherry! +Yeah, and plastic glasses as well. +Yeah ! +Oh my +Great! +I mean, the only way you could do that would be if you had a till at one end and people bought whatever they wanted and were given a voucher and you walked down the other end and exchanged +Mm. +it for drink. +That's the only way you could actually make that work at all. +Yeah, but just think of how much messing about there is. +Ah! +It'd be unbelievable! +I mean it'd be two thi forty we'd be round the bloody bend! +Yeah, but it's somebody sitting in an office innit deciding this! +Yeah, but who, who do you you know why +Sitting in a suit in a nice office saying, wo! +This is a good idea. +You know they don't serve behind the bar on a Saturday night. +They want somebody here from the for half an hour and them not being served first +Here! +You know what happens, d'ya know what happens then they'll get people +like. +Yeah. +People will get so antiseptic that they'll not be able to stand any sort of germs of any sort. +That's +Yeah. +true that! +I mean, you think about all this I mean a load of crap when they have larders and all that! +Alright, you might have got the odd but it's all this warming, doing it and then half leaving it and then +Yeah. +warming it up again that does the damage. +Certainly does. +Mm. +So well I shall wander back with my little book now. +I'm er I'm er, I'm just er +What? +Right. +I shall come tomorrow tonight when it's dark. +Right. +I'm o ooh! +Actually tomorrow night's not a good id well +No, nonsense +Oh is it rave night tomorrow +Yeah. +night? +Yeah. +Ah! +Rob's coming to look at lights. +Yeah, I mean it's all light and smoke and all the tables and chairs are out and +Can't see a thing. +And you won't be able to see anything. +I know I come on a Friday I were absolutely gobsmacked! +Yeah. +You can only see twelve feet er, you'd think the place was empty in the bar. +Erm I mean Saturday night would be be better Anne. +Oh Saturday night then. +Yeah, well I'll have a wander in Saturday night then. +But is that is that +Yeah. +Oh. +This is definite. +Bye! +Bye. +You know that I'm not gonna get out of course. +Gotta climb up that other end. +There's another there's a orifice down there. +Right. +Why are the doors always wrote wrong way! +I know. +I know. +That's er, that's our +That's ours just there, yeah. +Yeah. +That's ours as well there. +Oh sorry . +That's ours as well down there. +You get enough for twenty five K hav haven't they? +And that's with the chip system obviously. +Yeah. +It's er cleaner's room, two dressing rooms and toilets down there. +Well this is the area that you'll have to do something about is the if you're gonna knock it into the Winter Gardens this is the area that knocks into the Winter Gardens. +Oh! +Does that lead +Well, along that corridor is +Well I, we won't be doing anything nearly spectacular area than this. +It won't open. +Mm. +Where are all the light switches? +I mean, what, what we initially, this was a cloakroom this, this area +Yeah. +wasn't here,i this +Mm. +was the door and there was a little cloakroom +Yeah. +but er, our customers don't take their jackets off anyway +Oh right. +Don't they? +Erm +So you don't need a cloakroom then? +No. +But more in, but what it was we when I was in here, sort of five days a week, nine to five job +Mhm mm. +it was getting depres it was getting oppressive in that little office down there. +Oh! +I would have thought, yeah. +Awful! +You'd get a +So we were gonna move an office up to here with some natural light in it. +Yeah. +Cos there's nothing worse than there being a room with no natural light in, really. +I didn't realize it at the time but I think it wants +Eh! +No they think it's really bad. +Yeah. +Yeah. +So +It's really bad not enough light. +It's oppressive. +Right. +Course, the other thing you've gotta invest in is tables and well you don't need chairs, but tables, I mean as you can see we've got two hundred of those poly-cotton chairs in there which is erm can be used. +I'll get some tables up with erm +Mm. +Tables are quite expensive though. +So many places Barry are going down +Well, true +I tell you. +Yeah. +Just keep, just, in fact just keep well le let's get it sorted out and then we'll just get er er cos plenty of storage space and stuff. +Mm. +Used to have tables and extensions you see +Mm. +Bob makes tables. +Bloody hell! +I've got extensions, sure. +I tell you what make i trestle tables are so expensive aren't they? +I know! +Incredible price! +You still . +You can't, you can't get either, you know, proper +No. +you know, big wooden +I know. +trestle tables you just can't get anywhere. +No. +There's another wasted area. +There's incredible wasted areas in this place! +It's very badly planned you know +Terrible innit? +inside here. +It's all corridor and er +Mm. +It's all foyers and things. +Wants to be like Chamber of Horrors! +As you come down, you know. +Right! +Alright. +I'm off! +Speak to you later. +Right. +Cheers. +Bye! +Bye bye. +Great! +What is it? +It's an old ribbon. +I know. +What's on it? +I'll have a look. +Brewing up, yeah, no? +What? +Brewing up, no? +No. +The erm you know that bottle of bleach in the cellar was it bleach? +Yeah. +Didn't smell very strong the top's been off it. +The top's been, yeah. +I just brought it up with some er, just in case cos we don't, we don't really wanna use that for like these. +Not really. +Er I've taken all the rubbish down except for that long box in +Do we wanna get any more of the empty cases out today? +Yeah. +About forty quid's worth of empty cases. +Cor! +It's amazing what they're doing with them. +Yeah. +I know. +Have you been to put a bet on? +Yeah. +How did you know? +I guessed. +What on one race or +Mm. +Just the one. +What time are they coming at? +Well they said about, what? +Who? +Elliel? +Elliel, yeah. +Half past three. +Has Jean got to be here? +Yeah. +She said sh sh sh she said she'd be here about half two. +She's been to a funeral +Who's dead? +I don't know. +Some, somebody on the County Council. +He's probably been dead for about two years, they haven't noticed! +In that case, if this Thursday ge get anything like the other Thursdays we've got enough to last. +Is there a book for that like? +Er Webb, Webb missed the first one blasted it over the top and Giggs missed one at the end. +They scored all theirs and Giggs had to score his +Oh yeah. +to make them +So that they could miss the last one? +Yeah. +I mean +Fucking awful! +This fucking stuff they put down. +Well, yeah, but it's the police's fault innit? +Yeah. +You know, I mean it it's bloody outrageous that the police can dictate you know, something F A Cup's been there for +I know. +Bastards! +hundreds of years and police can dictate the what you're gonna do. +Don't be silly! +Yeah. +May as well. +So they're a bit sticky. +Nearly broke my neck on one, pulling one, one of those crates out. +Pulling this? +Yeah ! +Yeah, they'll be fucking . +Oh, actually you can smell the bleach now can't you? +Yeah. +Are you gonna do them all? +Yeah. +May as well. +Fucking no more cos they'll all be here for four o'clock. +Probably forgotten pi the line cleaners. +I did write it down for her in the list. +All this thing in the press and on the T V about Kevin Keagan being a folk hero in Newcastle, He +I know! +How +He +long did he play for them? +he only played there two years! +Yeah. +Two seasons. +Two seasons. +I mean, I can't believe that he's I mean +Fuck! +Ossie's had a hard game like, Swindon +Oh yeah. +being promoted and then +I know. +somebody taking the fucking +That's awful! +points off them. +What have they th they ducked three points as it is. +No, they've put them down in third division now. +Yeah, originally they'd have ducked for three +Yeah, Yeah. +points and +Yeah. +stopped, and then prefer to go like when they appealed because he'd knocked them again. +I mean, you know, how long's he, when did he get the job, May or something, last year? +I mean he's hardly you know, he's had +Yeah. +half a season, I mean that's ridiculous! +And then the vote of confidence, he'll be there. +Oh God! +How the fuck can he do that? +I know. +Every time they do it , don't they, you know? +I know. +Yeah. +He er especially when the chairman says he's got every faith in him. +You know you're gonna a er a telegram the next morning. +Outrageous that! +I wondered when they offered Keagan to do it? +Yeah. +I fucking watched the programme on that Who Who's the Greatest? +It was about fucking sportsmen of the week, and it was Keagan and George Best. +Oh I, I remember that, I didn't watch it, I refused to watch it. +I mean that's actually going in for Keagan! +I think fucking Dennis Taylor was on singing his praises. +Singing whose, Keagan's praises? +Yeah. +I think it was Dennis Taylor, Taylor. +That's a that was difference yo you end up voting, you end up actually voting who's the nicest human being, not +Yeah. +really +Exactly. +That's why it was,cos he's +not the best footballer. +you know, dedicated to his club and all this +Yeah. +stuff. +But I mean, he, he wasn't +He's a +particularly was he? +I mean, he went to Liverpool, Liverpool made him +That's right. +Yeah. +from Scunthorpe and then, I mean, he, he went after mega bucks in, in erm +Hamburg. +Hamburg, then you know,so being a big fish in a small pond at Southampton and then +But +last couple of years a quick I mean, his contract with Newcastle worth, worth a fortune wasn't it? +Cos it was one of those first ones that was sponsored by +Who was +the +it? +the brewery +Was it +wasn't it? +was it Pools? +No. +It was er, erm wasn't it Newcey brown ale went and sponsored Newcastle? +No, no. +But anyway, I mean, they er they ended up, instead of paying the club a sponsorship they ended up paying him, you know, like erm +Yeah. +like the car phone company did with +Yeah. +Ian Botham to go to Worcestershire. +But he wasn't the fucking greatest, oh hardworking I'd say, he fucking +Oh yeah. +grafted. +Yeah. +That's right. +He wasn't a +He wasn't that . +he wasn't a very skilful player. +No. +He wasn't a natural at all. +He worked hard though. +Yeah. +He had a, he had a, he had a, a lot, he had a he was quite nippy and he had a good scu you know, good goal +Good goals. +scoring sense +Yeah. +sometimes, but I mean that was all. +He was a good player but I but I think he's always looked after himself, I mean he's he's +Yeah. +he's probably one of +Oh yeah. +the richest British footballers. +He will be. +Yeah. +I can't think anybody would have more. +No. +No. +I mean it, it no, he was one of the first with the shrewd sort of business sense +Yeah. +and all that. +Fucking Mick 's making a fortune training at Arsenal! +Is he? +Doing really well yeah. +And Francis , he's doing quite +Yeah. +well. +Didn't he used to be in scrap metal is what Francis was +Toilet rolls. +telling me? +Is it? +Oh. +Did you see erm This Is Your Life last night? +No. +It was Alan Bleasdale. +Oh! +The +Ah +? +Yeah. +And they had, they had er Kenny Dalgleish and Graham Souness, and er +All the Liverpool, like? +Yeah. +And they had er tt erm Reed +Peter Reed? +Yeah. +Cos he used to Alan Bleasdale used to be Peter Reed's teacher at school and the +Did he? +Yeah. +A and erm he, he coached the football te +He would be bunking off! +he coached the football team the, the +What place is that then? +the Kirby Boys and they won the national competition or something or other with the, with them. +No,th the till man said we have to keep erm you know the receipt one +Yeah, but we never put that on do we? +I know. +But we need to keep er a, a receipt in it. +Because +And just have it so it's not +Yeah. +Yeah. +So th there's a switch inside on, off. +Yes, yes, I know that. +He said fa because erm one of the keys is damaged erm the bot you know when the, you know the printout +Yeah. +when it prints out the bottom of like the noughts and, the bottom of the figure is missing, you can read it, it's not important, but it's done because the one, it wo it's punching onto, onto metal because that paper's not on our till receipt. +See that thing you had whe when the bar was taken this time was that just for tax like +No that was, that was our er that was our accounts for the year. +Does Volks actually know that, yeah? +Yeah. +I think Volks just wanted out of the area to be honest. +Yeah well +Don't care. +they're further further up north aren't they now? +Mm. +Well they've got the depot at Rochdale which services up to Blackpool and this was out on a limb. +Yeah. +Cos,i it Kendal's done from Newcastle. +Is it? +Yeah. +Up to there +Oh course! +Yeah. +and then Rochdale up towards Blackpool and we're stuck right in the bloody middle so the er, they were a, like we were one delivery that's all it, and we weren't that big an account, you know even doing a reasonable trade you're not +Yeah. +for one pub. +Yeah, well they, they, you obviously need two, three that like, to make it worth your while. +Yeah. +It's getting a bit fucking rank you know! +Now d'ya know how dirty those shelves get? +Mind you, the cra crates are fairly dirty aren't they at times. +Yeah. +That's what does it. +On the bottoms as well. +Yeah, you sometimes get them some of them look as if there's, I dunno vinta vintage Newcastle Brown you know cobwebs and dust on them int there and spiders' webs on them. +I hope Saturday's as good as last Saturday it was quite a good night that. +Well I, I, I, I honestly thought the bar should have done , and I'm sure it fucking did you know. +Didn't have enough people in to do anything else. +I dunno. +We'd have had, they'd have had to spent about five quid a head. +Yeah but they were. +Like the shorts were absolutely hammered! +Like there were them lads they had fucking four in a glass like and, there was loads of, so many drinks like I served loads. +Vod vodka Jack Daniels and some other spirit in it. +I ju I just wanna know how much Terri took, you know . +Yeah. +I'll have a look. +Like, erm, I'm, like I'm not fucking saying to she's, she's but she's, she just gets fucking absolutely stupid! +It's really silly like. +Like, and you know that, is it Alis Alison and somebody? +She's always on about Alison like, I'm sure she fucking doesn't charge them for drinks. +Well, which one's Alison? +She's er, she always comes looking for Terri. +She's going with that little monster with the long hair. +Played in the band here once and they +Aha. +were crap or something. +Kevin er, Kevin I think his name is. +She's just though, she's fucking outrageous ! +She doesn't know what she's doing half the time! +Like you go, even saying I did serve quite a bit faster than her, which I do like, you know she still should o i if the bar done seven fifty she should have, she should have done what two, three and a half? +Oh yeah. +At least, like. +Well she, I mean, she might have done it. +She should have done a bit more than that actually. +Mm. +She should have been doing three hundred. +Still leaves me a hundred and fifty ahead of her like, you know. +Like, you didn't serve any drinks did you Barry? +No. +No. +Er +So all +twenty, twenty quid's worth maybe at the end. +Not much. +If it's gonna be like that we do need a glass collector don't we? +We need somebody on to collect glasses. +But er, there wasn't really any even though it was quite, we, we, we did have quite a lot of glasses. +Mind you, they would have gone and broke if we line them up. +Yeah, but Ka Katrin wasn't, Katrin wasn't. +She'd got no, oh that's right, yeah. +You know +Well that's another thing, I think that black man as well is getting drinks as well. +Mind you, you wouldn't mind, you'd give him a couple like, if you +Yeah. +help us, you +No. +know like. +Well that's right, I mean, you know, two or, two or three drinks to us is only costing like a quid, well it's only a quid. +Yeah, but she's been caught doing it as well. +Ach! +It's not the point, Jean put o said to me last week about the fucking . +Like, and there's other people in there that are you know, they should be wrote down, and she looked at me +Yeah. +like. +Yeah. +Oh yeah, I mean, they're gonna have to be from now on cos we're not gonna be, you know, we're gonna be responsible to +Yeah. +somebody else, not just ourselves, you know. +Okay, if we wa if we want to turn a blind eye to it then that's our business you know but er but when you're, when you're actually erm +Answerable to someone else. +Yeah. +Present accounts to somebody else you can't do it like that can you? +You know water's looking disgusting! +What other results were there last night? +Er Forest +The +won four two. +Oh did they? +Doing really well. +.Liverpool drew one each with Bristol Rovers. +That don't sound right. +I've seen it, seen that one I've seen that match they were lucky. +Sunderland won, who were they playing? +Sunderland won. +Er Oxford I think. +They were winning three nil three two at the end of it. +Oxford scored one on the end +Not many first division teams left is there? +Nine. +About nine is there? +Wrexham were unlucky against Blackburn. +Oh! +Weren't they? +Didn't they play well? +Yes! +They've always been a +I thought they played +good club side Wrexham. +Yeah, they have but I mean, they got a lot of good skilful young lads haven't they? +They're only like nineteen and twenty +Yeah. +and I mean that young fullback looked brilliant! +That lef +Yeah. +Mm mm. +Quite good. +Composed as well like. +Talented. +Yeah. +It's a funny law that er clear chance at goal job innit? +I mean it's a funny definition. +I must admit I, I if you could stop that deliberate foul it's I mean it's better for the game if you can stop it. +Send them off. +Yeah. +Yeah. +That's right. +I mean if you're gonna do it +Yeah. +do it, do it, do it +Yeah. +consistently. +Cos, actually, the other thing about defenders hauling people down like that, you know, how many times when a forward's through one on one on a goal keeper does he score? +It's not that often actually. +No. +I mean, okay, somebody like Besty +Thing you want +you could bet on +Yeah. +nine times out of ten, but +But even, even against the goalkeeper they fucking lose fifty percent of the, like +Yeah. +I was saying more than fifty percent of the playing +Yeah, I would, yeah. +Yeah. +Yeah. +And that's all just one on one on the goalkeeper. +Yeah. +Well that's what I mean, I mean, you know,th th the player could let him, could let him go really without deliberately fouling him because it's, it's gonna +Half the +be at least a fifty fifty +Yeah. +chance that the goalkeeper's gonna save it innit? +It's fucking gotta be straight like that, I, I, I don't fucking taking off three points for a . +At the start it seemed to improve the matches but it, they've just become too hectic now I think. +Mm. +You know, there's not as much skill involved as there was. +No. +No, that's right. +It's +Like the +incredibly passed. +the first, the first season like the football did seem to improve but it's not +That's right. +gonna go back now I think. +United have got a strange side at the moment though +Oh yes. +I mean I don't think you can it's alright having all these players but if you he doesn't seem +They don't play. +he doesn't seem to +They +have an idea of what he wants. +Cos I mean +No they don't. +every week he's got a different sort of format. +Well what's he supposed to do? +Giggs, Semen . +Well he had him +Well I think he's gotta look at, and the team should be in with you +Yeah. +like. +He had him playing yesterday, er, but they dropped Hughes. +Yeah I know . +Well you don't drop Hughes for anybody! +And his two subs, Hughes and Sharp, I mean it does rather hamstring +Yeah. +you if anything happens to a central defender dunnit? +Yeah. +Well I don't think Hughes should ever be sub like, he should be on the team. +Well that's right, even if he's not scoring goals he's creating so much pressure and, and +Yeah, he always done like. +Good in defence as well. +Yeah. +That's right. +Well he's also summat, er I mean he's, he's one of the best at holding a ball you know +Fantastic shielding the ball +on his own. +Yeah. +Yeah. +Whitbreads are here. +Arsenal +Yeah. +played well. +Yeah. +The crowd were getting at them last night. +Were they? +The first goal was dreadful! +My did you see it? +They were winning three nil weren't they? +Yeah. +Did you see this goal? +No. +I remember seeing, but I heard fucking result on News at Ten. +It was a long +I know. +it was a it was full pass inside to two fullbacks er, for the Southampton player that was running on this fullback shaded it away you know, guiding him out of it, he's running to the e sa Smeichel came out to the edge of the area but he was like right on the edge as the player was coming to him, so he just let it roll a little bit further, he stopped it with his foot, the guy came and tackled him off got it instead of just picking it up with his hand, I mean he was actually in the area but like he was right on the edge and he took a step back +Why the fuck didn't he +and stopped it with his foot. +Yeah. +wait for the ball coming in? +I tell you Liverpool were really lucky cos er Bristol Rovers had got a penalty. +Mm. +As long they, as long as they win the league I do I don't mind. +Been a long time. +Mind you +I know. +Leeds are still bloody doing well though. +They won three nil last week didn't they? +Yeah. +Oh every week they putting it together, scoring the goals. +I think they were about a hundred and fifty to one I'm standing see if they can win the league. +Are they? +Yeah. +Yeah. +Wouldn't be a bad that actually, cos if it did +Yeah, they played well the year before they held their own see they've got all the +They played last year didn't they? +the best lads. +Yeah. +I mean they're, they ended up about what were they, about fifth or something weren't they? +Yeah, last year. +Aha. +And they bought er players didn't they? +They put, you know, started to buy a few you know, like Dorego and things like that. +Wallace not a bad buy. +Arsenal are playing terrible aren't they? +Mm. +Roecastle's started to play well again this +Yeah. +It was an awful goal that United gave away weren't it? +We I mean, it was only Palaster in, in that half. +And where the hell the fullbacks were! +In wonderland. +Who was it who first said that they'd witnessed something? +Yeah. +What? +Well you not, you liked the but erm +No I never. +You did. +No I never. +It was you or Peter. +Who was this? +No it wasn't. +It weren't me. +It was either you or Peter. +It weren't me. +You then. +No it weren't me. +It weren't me, I never played . +Do , don't get , don't get me into this. +Oh! +I dunno where he is. +It weren't me. +Can you place a shot? +Turn that up! +Yes. +Please! +Probably go back stop. +I can score your point now. +No, no, that's that thing called . +Bull boy back stop. +You're playing this. +Bollocks! +You're a blue oyster in disguise. +You're a blue boy +It's meant to be a tenner. +Oh. +Nine two on aggregate. +Ah! +What a tenner between ya? +No, tenner for each. +Yeah. +It's the spirit! +No, if you only you had a fart coming. +He just went or it sounds like. +Pa. +It sounded, a little breather. +Pa. +Okay, you was all quiet until you went +No, Kev, no. +I didn't go raargh aargh! +Well I don't think I did so +Yes you did. +No I never. +Yes you did. +No I never. +You did. +No. +You did. +No. +You did. +No. +You did. +No. +You did. +No. +Look, you've been repeating yourself again. +Yeah, so are you. +No I ain't. +Yeah. +I di , I ain't repeating yourself. +Did, you did. +You did! +I ain't repeating yourself. +So I done alright. +Ha ha! +So funny! +What's he got playing like this. +Rumbled it. +Seven eight +You've done it again . +Do him you wanker! +Joe or something. +I know. +Half way down. +Sam's brother. +Sam's there. +If Sam came up to you and you ge your Mil , you had Millwall and Sam right, rips it off right, ripped it to pieces and that, started burning it, and he give you a Wimbledon shirt in return what would you do? +Probably do the same to his. +Mm. +What, then you'd give him a Millwall shirt? +I'd give it back. +I got a and my Dad was going +I'd kill him! +Your Dad'd kill him and all. +I know. +I wouldn't. +Poor old Bobby. +He's always had to find a new friend, he don't trust me. +a good friend, ah! +Pass! +I wanna be your friend. +He for a lunch. +Far from a friend. +I wanna get you expelled. +Bollocks! +Paul . +Joss ran into the wind. +Oh shot! +Ha! +Oh a excellent boot, enough far . +Someone should tell Joey. +, but someone's already told him. +Oh sorry, I'm on the . +Whoever listens to this your Mum's like fish and chips, a come slap-up. +Good goal. +I reckon those kids are getting Hooray!. +Oh it's on there. +. +Oh it's too smelly at Millwall. +Hey. +I says at , Arsenal !, it's not against fanny and Chelsea . +Who's this fanny and Chelsea ? +Oh yeah, cos I know it's wonderful . + +how you got started singing? +How I got started singing? +Aye. +Well me, oh, how I got started singing, it was really just I didn't sing very much really. +My dad was a good singer. +He wasn't a trained singer or anything, it was, just happened that he, he was a good singer. +My younger brother he's a good singer as well. +But er us +Did he sing at home, your dad? +He just sang round about the house, aha. +And we just, he knew a lot of the, he was interested in si singing and he just knew the words and and just sang round about the house. +Mhm. +And he just sang too. +You know that's how he he learnt. +So what were his favourite songs? +Oh dear, he was what would you say, I don't know He liked the kind of ballads, er he was a more a kind of bay he liked a ballad, so I really couldn't tell you who was his favourite singer or anything like that, just if a song interested him he just +What do you mean by ballad kind of songs? +Well more the slow, er songs, not the fast. +The love songs and things like that ? +Things like that. +Mhm. +but I I never sang anywhere, I just sang round the house as well. +Mhm. +And it was really er I think it was really the pantomimes that I started singing +Was it? +here, oh yes. +I never I never went out +Were you were you in the drama clubs here when you were younger then as well? +I was in the Drama Club when I was when I stayed at home, but we didn't do pantomimes, we we did plays, one act plays, and three act plays, we did three act plays. +We never did pantomimes. +And er but that's the only time, you sang at weddings. +So I said, Come on Mabel, sing. +Or my father would sing +So how long did you live in for? +We've , into the village, we lived out in the countryside till I was eight, and we come down into the I should say town shouldn't I, we come down into the town when I was eight and I was there till I was twenty two, and I came up here, when I got married. +Mhm, is Leslie from this part of the country? +Les is from oh well he was, I think he was three when he came up here. +He lived in, he was born in Castle Douglas. +Mhm. +But I think he was three when his father was sh came up here to work. +What did his father do when he came here? +Electrician, you know he still worked for the the electricity board . +Did he come with the start of the scheme then really? +No well it wasn't the scheme he worked on, he would go round and sort your cooker or you know he was that, maintenance, the maintenance side. +Er other thing, and they lived down there opposite the garage, that was the electricity board house then. +So would that be about er the late fifties or something you would you came here then yourself? +I ca I came here in nineteen sixty one. +Sixty one. +Mhm. +That's when I got married, nineteen sixty one, I came up. +What did you think of when you came ? +Well it was just a quiet wee village just I had come, wasn't much different it was quiet as well. +Mhm. +And er there wasn't there wasn't much difference really. +Everybody was very friendly, it didn't matter whether you were an incomer or not, they always spoke. +Mhm. +You got to know people very quick in . +That was one thing about the village, and your your neighbour would where Jane is the now, I don't think she'll have hardly seen her neighbour in Dumfries, but here they were always you know +You couldn't get away from them. +Oh they were in or out. +So did you do any singing when you came here first? +What was the first kind of thing you got involved in ? +Oh the rural choir, I forgot about that, yes, I joined the rural choir and . +And er I couldn't sight read or anything like, I can't sight read. +But I can remember once when I was at the school Mrs was our music teacher and we were to go from doh to far, you know doh to far, and they used to s , she used to say listen to Mabel, Mabel's the only one one of you that can go from doh to far. +But er so when we came Mrs the sight reading of course I was lost because she used to +Is that Mrs John ? +No Mrs Billy. +Billy. +She used to take the rural choir. +How long had it been going then when you came? +Oh it had been going for quite some time, I don't know really when they would start. +Was it all ladies ? +Mhm, yes, oh aye, all ladies. +she was nearly retired, Billy +she was nearly retiring by the, no still the girls go to her at the school so she must have been going for, two or three years after we came up here, but I would be in the choir just, maybe two or three years. +And then it +And did it +it fell the choir fell folded up , +Folded up and she +Aye, oh +retired? +There was nobody else took it on. +Was there a church choir going at that time then? +Yes, aye there would be, just the same ladies that have s been in it for years. +But there were men in it for quite a while, I was wondering when that kind of faded out. +Oh that was faded out before +That was a good while before +Aye before we came up here. +I wonder if, it Mr, was it choir or his father or something that had it, I can if I can remember somebody saying. +So what was going on in the way of entertainments and things like that when you came to ? +When I came up to live here? +There was quite a few dances, in er, do you mean dances in the Town Hall? +Ah there would be there well just one or two, not not every week or anything like that as far as I can remember. +Just a few over the winter? +Just aye, aye, oh they didn't have them in the in the summer, and of course in them days well the the bars shut at ten o'clock which meant you know they came into the dance hall just after that where nowadays the bars shut at twelve o'clock and +It's hardly worth having a dance . +It's not worth having a dance. +But I heard the Town Hall was having one, not the Town, was it the Town Hall or Community Council having one between, I think it's the Town Hall, between Christmas and New Year and really I don't think it's worth their while having them then. +Do you think that's been a big thing contributing to there being a=less dances and things then? +Do you mean the bars being op oh I think +And clubs. +I think so really +Do you think it's the main thing ? +I think that's what's really, it's killed them as far +Mhm. +as the dances are concerned. +And another thing is the young ones don't dance. +They can +Do you mean by young ones my generation ? +I mean , yes, well maybe you can but I do but the the younger ones are ever er you know younger ones like Carl and them, they can disco but they they can't waltz or er foxtrot or +How did you learn to waltz then? +Just by going to dances, just by going to dances, we just, you just picked it up, your your partner could do it and you just learnt from there. +Mhm. +That's one thing I've always been a quick learner which has been quite +Mhm. +I think Jane's got er that as well. +She seem to be able to pick thing sup. +Does she like dancing? +Not as fa not the dancing but when she was working in an office you know they just needed to show her something once and she could pick it up. +Mhm. +It was the same in the the pantomimes when Lily has learnt learnt the dancing, I could er after she had showed us about twice I could I could have it no bother and the rest of them were still struggling away trying to learn the steps. +So it's quite an advantage. +So did you go to dances quite a lot before you were married ? +Oh yes in aye. +Was that the place where everybody went to +To the Town Hall. +young lads and lasses would get together ? +Lasses would yes, aye, to the dances. +And they used to run er buses to different places, you know, you used to go to different places, and . +And what kind of band played for the dances when you were in then? +Bands like what Tommy has, you know accordion bands. +That er they were all more or less that kind of band. +So by the time you came here it would mostly just be Tommy that was playing? +Roundabouts, er the only one I can remember is Tommy round about, you know playing er in the Hall. +And , it was just these kind of bands that +Mhm. +were in those days, the accordion bands. +So but we fair enjoyed them , they think, the younger ones don't like them nowadays but +Mhm. +we enjoyed them. +Cos I like, I like the accordion, I like country dancing. +Did you go to the Country Dancing Club at all? +Oh yes. +Went to the Country Dancing Club, used to go all over to the Country Dances +Oh? +to different places. +It was supposed to have been quite good up at ,? +Aye it was sti , yes it was still going when I came up here. +Mhm +Aha. +Was it Mrs , from took it ? +And were there men went to the country dancing as well? +Oh yes , oh yes, aye. +Not so many men as went ladies but er +Do you think +there was a lot of men. +the rise of the Country Dancing Clubs was maybe be to kind of try and compensate in a way for the dances themselves going down, ordinary dances, folk were wanting to do the Scottish dancing and things? +It could have been but you found +you found at the Country Dancing, it was different people that was at the Country Dancing than what than what it was at the more at the the ordinary dances. +Folk that maybe would have been shy to go to a +Mhm. +a big dance? +Yes er maybe but +would come to the country dancing. +Or some of the older folk maybe that +Folk, I think yes, it was more, mhm. +Right. +But you get country dancing that's very energetic really. +Yes. +But I oh I used to go to the country dancing. +So was there a drama club going in when you came here? +No. +That would be finished up? +That was finished up, mhm. +What about the one, was it still going? +When you came here? +I don't think so, I can't remember eh it going then. +Because I think it was Tommy that said it was really after the one finished and there was nothing else round about that there was a gap of a few years and then you got started again here. +Yes, but er it was actually Mike that got it back up here,Mike and Grace , John 's first wife that started it up. +I can remember Leslie coming home, I think I must have been expecting Doreen at the time, that was in, that was early early on, nineteen, well that was nineteen sixty three, and he was, he had heard that had I had been in the Gatehouse Drama Club, and er he said, Would I be interested in com in coming to the Drama in if they started? +Leslie said he would need a special part for me then. +But that it took another oh quite a number of years really to get it started up. +They were very good for it's first +Oh the first concert oh yes +those kind of people. +The f I often find that really the first year it was more fun and er then when they started on the plays and that it got more serious and +A bit more like hard work really? +It was really, there wasn't so much fun in it, it was all more serious. +And when Bobby was there it really was +I remember +Oh yes. +He and Andy together were very good . +Mhm, yes, oh they were, aha. +Bobby was really, he just kept it going really. +Sometimes just one person like that or a couple of people ? +It , it just needs a character really, just to keep it going. +And he really was a character. +somehow in the drama, even though it's so long since he passed away . +There's nobody can replace individual people . +There no, no, nobody at all. +And do you think er the others feel that like you do about doing the plays that it's maybe a bit more of a strain you know the competitions and +I think some of them do , yes, I know s er some of them have said how much they enjoyed it when it started off first, but er but now it's just got that wee bit more serious. +We're with the plays, with going to the festival of course, you can't,you must be serious when you're practising for something like that . +Do you feel like it's almost like doing a different thing that you're not, you know when you're actually acting in the play you're more self conscious and you're more conscious of what you're you're moving and you're speaking and whereas the likes of the panto you know you just be yourself really with a bit of fun thrown in . +Yeah, yes, oh yes aye the plays the plays you've got to think what you're doing wand if you miss your cue line you're putting your, the person next, off as well that it is more er serious and you've got to think more I think +Mhm. +really. +But however +So you just kind of kept kept on singing, after the choir and that finished? +Aha, when the pantomime started up that was just carried on in there. +Not that I'm a great, good or great singer it's just I seem to have a strong voice. +Unfortunately you can always hear me above everybody else. +Oh dear. +That's, you can +But if er if folks spoke about you you know they would they would say you were a singer? +Because you're seen in public and you do sing in public, there's a lot of people that sing but as you say it's sometimes just in their own homes or they used to but they would never sing in public ,they used to sing in the choir . +Yes, sing in public, no no. +I've I wouldn't I don't think I would go out if somebody said, Would you come and sing er at such and such a thing. +I I don't think I would go. +But in the pantomime, well you're singing with everybody else, you're not er on your own really. +And the pantomimes a different thing altogether. +Mhm. +And I mun that I must have words in front of me, if I don't have words in front of me even though I know it, I I still forget it. +But er +That's right, just nerves. +I think it's the nervousness that just knocks the words coming out of your head. +Oh, +It's easy to do. +Aha. +oh aye. +But er do you quite like singing for folk that know you? +Do you like singing in the village, where everybody knows you, or would you in some ways be less nervous do you think if you were singing like even to folk,who just don't so well ? +Quite know me so well? +Do you think that makes any difference? +I think it would really in a way and yet the people in know how you sing so the whereas the maybe wouldn't know. +Mhm. +And you would you would be more, you'd be more nervous in case they they thought, Well she's terrible isn't she? +But it would also be fresher for them, you know +Oh yes. +folk folk that know you either w might be too critical or they might just switch off because they have heard it before . +They have heard it before, mhm. +But I've never well I've never really +You've never +sang in anything other than the pantomime that +Mhm. +int he village you know, except maybe at at the Social or something like that, said, Come on up and sing and then I forget my words and that's me. +Do you like to know where, for quite a while in advance what you're going to sing then ? +I do really. +Aha, I do really. +If somebody's would l if somebody wanted me to sing I really would like to know er because +Do you not have a wee store of your favourite things then that you +Oh I have a wee store, yes, but you see you don't carry them, I don't carry them with me, if I carried them with me I could sing I could, well that's it, +If you did it more often maybe, +I feel if, yes, you would remember them an awful lot easier. +Aha. +But er +What, how did how did you collect the songs that you sing then, I mean were they just things that +Just taking aye, just songs that I liked and I just er take them off tapes and, and records, and I just write them down, +Do you do that all the time? +Are you always, when you're hearing something +Mhm. +you're listening +Mhm. +thinking, Oh I'd like to sing that . +And I'd like to, aye, and I just write it down in a if it's on a tape you can put that pause on and just take line by line, you know. +Mhm. +But erm and if you listen to the tape long enough you can, I can pick up the tune, +Mhm. +as well, and just, and have the words. +And then as long as the pianist or the accordionist know the tune I'm alright +Can you take it off the +Mhm. +music as well though if you had to? +If somebody gave you a bit of sheet music? +No. +No I would have to learn the tune like by listening to the +Aha. +to the person singing. +Aha. +That's the only way I would learn a tune, I couldn't sight-read the +Mhm. +the music off a sheet. +Right. +Do you have you ever had a go at the piano or that? +No, though I would like to have been able to have played, I can remember saying to my mother once, I would like to have been able to have learnt the piano. +And er but of course they couldn't afford to buy me a piano to learn on so +Mhm. +that was it. +Any other instruments +Mhm. +you particularly like? +I that I like? +Or would have, to listen to? +To listen to, to listen to, mhm. +I like the guitar, I like to listen to the guitar, not the classical stuff, I'm sorry to say but, I like to listen to the guitar. +Or er a clarinet, I like the sound of +Aha, aha +oh I like the sound of a clarinet, mhm, I think they're lovely. +But er the piano's the only one I would of like to have learnt to play. +Mhm. +I often feel sorry that I never was able to play but +Oh you still could +Plenty of adverts about . +Yes oh yes, aye . +practice in the town hall. +Well we had a piano actually, we got it for Doreen and Doreen she started to learn, she went to Mr . +Remember Mr that used to live at ? +She went to him and then he flitted away. +And er she just never went anywhere else and gave up. +And Carol liked to come through and just tinker but she never got lessons or anything so we just sold it. +Mhm. +But, as long as the music had doh ray mes written on it I could play with one hand but +Mhm. +other than that I was lost. +Mhm, do you think it's quite good +Mhm. +that they're getting a lot of music at school these days and? +I think it is, yes, I think it's a great thing really. +Do you think it's important? +Yes, erm I can't give you a reason why I think it's important though. +But I think it is. +I think it's a it's the lighter side of the their their schooling. +They have a serious side but they must have a lighter side as well, mustn't they? +In the school. +But you must really enjoy singing to yourself, you must find that something +Oh I do. +you get out of singing that you don't get anywhere else. +Its's no, no, I I do enjoy, I r I like singing. +I like the music. +I I'm really interested in music. +Do you feel as if you're really expressing something +In the music, in the song . +Even if it's just a simple wee song? +Mhm, mhm, it is, it's lovely . +everybody should be able to feel that they can do that, you know? +Aha. +Aye, sure they should. +So is there an what kind of things would you like to see in the village and round about int eh way of more music or less music or a different music? +Would you like more dances ? +Or ? +Myself, I'd I'd really enjoy dancing, er so does Leslie, Leslie enjoys dancing as well. +But er +You would go to more it there were more do you think? +Well nowadays I don't know whether you should record this or not, but nowadays erm they'll not go unless they've been to the bar or something before that well unfortunately Leslie's not able to drink now, he can't after his operation, he can't take, it just upsets him altogether so he can't go to the bar and all the rest of the company have been to the bar and they're in a different mood than what Leslie is, so Leslie'll just not go, and it just, it's kind of, cut him off +Mhm. +there, you know. +That's a shame. + +The component parts of the multiplier have been agreed as four years for the period up to the age of nineteen when he leaves school and thirteen years thereafter Mrs doctor and Mr Paul's headmaster agree that Paul needs an enabler at school during school hours, that is classroom hours, an enabler is in effect a classroom assistant who works with him on a one to one basis to ensure that he can participate in lessons. +It is right to say that I have heard from Mrs Paul's classroom assistant during the last academic year, she appears virtually to have acted as an enabler, but she was by no means dedicated to Paul as a one to one enabler and of course the extent of the attention of which she had to give to Paul detracted from her ability to give attention to other pupils. +Mr the headmaster has recently applied to Paul's present local authority London Borough of Merton for a classroom assistant for Paul for thirty hours per week he does not know whether he will get that or a lesser number of hours or none at all, he was repeatedly, in my view quite rightly, extremely reluctant to express any view about what the outcome of his application maybe, but, rather force time is to which we have to guess, his guess was that ten hours might be afforded but he was at pains to emphasize that that was pure guess work. +He was however er reasonably clear as to the speed at which local authorities tend to deal with these matters, he said that it always takes a long time and getting any answer out of the local authority might well take somewhere between six months and up to two years, he thought that perhaps eighteen months was a reasonable guess before he would actually manage to get somebody if Paul were to move as er, it maybe well occur to here or a different local authority then of course the application would just go back to square one and that would lead to more delay. +Mrs proposes that there should be such a classroom assistant or an enabler for twenty hours per week that would almost cover the full classroom week of twenty five hours. +Mr for the defendant effectively accepts that, but says that having regard to Mr er undoubted success in regard to provision of one to one assistance in relation to other children, some of whom are less disabled than Paul, that I should try and look to local authority will provide thirty hours assistance or thereabouts after say eighteen months and that therefore in this regard the defendant should pay for only one and a half years of er enabler's time. +I think that that is over optimistic, I cannot be confident that there will be any local authority provision at all, it seems to me that this particular provision is really vital to Paul's education and I think it right to ensure that it is available. +In addition to classroom support Mrs says that Paul needs general support for three hours per evening in relation to his er social well being in his leisure activities three hours per evening for the four evenings a week which he spends at school, in relation to this I think it right to bear in mind Mr evidence about the school, being a special school of course has generous staffing levels, staffing levels which would make the mouth of any head teacher of any other school water I suspect. +There are ninety nine pupils, the total staff is one hundred, of course that does not for a moment mean that er, there is one member of staff attendant on each pupil at all times, and I don't for a moment suggest that. +Of the ninety nine pupils, seventy five are boarders, the suffer varying degrees, degrees of disability, something like nine or ten of them are roughly in Paul's category of disablement, although he is the most severely disabled. +There are nineteen full-time care staff of whom eleven are on duty in the evenings and Mr has asked for a further eleven full-time care staff, he hopes in due course to be able to have seventeen such staff on duty at any one time. +In these circumstances in my judgment there is entirely adequate support for Paul of the sort that Mrs envisaged and indeed I am inclined to the view that one to one dedicated support for him out of classroom hours may not be desirable and might well tend at least to come between him and his fellow pupils so if one turns to Mrs schedule one on page forty seven, papers before me, I think that the appropriate arithmetic is to provide for twenty hours per week at seven pounds per hour for thirty seven school weeks, that is an enabler for the school period, I confess that I find it much easier to deal with Mrs schedules on page forty seven by treating schedule one as having to do with the, the school period, schedule two having to deal with the home periods and schedule three with parental care, as it is actually set out on page forty seven, and I confess that during the case I kept confusing myself about this point, schedule one deals not only with school but also, rather confusingly, with an enabler at home and I think it easier to confine that schedule to er school time. +The result of the calculation that er I think appropriate is that one finds twenty hours a week, seven pounds an hour, thirty seven weeks a year comes out I hope at five thousand, one hundred and eighty pounds, to that should be added four hundred and forty five pounds national insurance contributions and I have left the advertising fees at the same amount two hundred pounds. +That means five thousand eight hundred and twenty five pounds which one multiplies by four, giving a total under that schedule of twenty three thousand, three hundred pounds, I regret to say that it is of course inherent in the judgment that I have to deliver that there is a good deal of what +I might call rather boring arithmetic, I'm sorry about that, but it is unavoidable. +Going on to er schedule two, and first of all the weekends, it is not common ground that care of twenty four, four, twenty four hours should be provided, that gives a weekly figure, a yearly figure for er of seven thousand, one hundred and four pounds, multiplying that by four one gets twenty eight thousand, four hundred and sixteen pounds. +In the same schedule I accept Mrs suggestions for the school holidays and the rates that she gives so that one has seven thousand, eight hundred and fifty two pounds fifty times four which equals thirty one thousand, four hundred and ten pounds. +I do not however accept that in addition to the hours of care which she provides at home during the school holidays that there should also be an enabler for twenty hours per week as she suggests that would mean that the number of hours of care, and I appreciate of course, that there is some artificiality in dealing with this in pure terms of numbers of hours of care, but nevertheless it provides a sort of common denominator, which can give some indication, that would mean no less than ninety hours of boarding and care per week fifty during the week erm and twenty during the weekend and a further twenty for the enabler, I think that that er is too great and I make no allowance for an enabler at home. +Next in schedule three there is provision to compensate Mr and Mrs for the extra work involved in caring for Paul, it is agreed that er since they are in the special position of course of being Paul's carers they are, not er, I mean no disrespect to nursing but they're not erm it is agreed that there should a deduction of twenty five percent, that would give an annual figure of two thousand, six hundred and thirty one times four will amount to ten thousand five hundred and twenty four pounds, adding these figures together, future care during schooling comes if my addition has been accurate to ninety three thousand, six hundred and fifty pounds in total. +Turning to care for Paul after the age of nineteen the approach of Mrs is very much at variance with the approach of Mrs , both agree that Paul will require a resident carer present, twenty four hours a day. +Mrs thinks that that is best provided by two carers living in the house, each on duty for half the week, such carers being directly employed by the , by contrast Mrs says that an agency should provide a carer all the time from its available pool, she envisages that in practice three or four carers would share the work, they differ over the full number of hours care to be provided by hired carers, Mrs envisages seventeen hours a day in total, Mrs ten hours, again I emphasize that the artificiality of the working in precise number of hours, where you have somebody actually living in the house all the time and available to er carry out active care at any time, but of course carers are not always having to do things which might be described as active care. +The advantages and disadvantages of each proposal have been canvassed helpfully by Counsel, I have to say that I prefer the approach of Mrs , she had in my view more experience and more relevant experience than Mrs was able to bring to bear. +Her scheme of things in my judgment is likely to offer better continuity of care and thus more rapport between Paul and his carers and a better opportunity for one carer to hand on the necessary skills with Paul's equipment to any successor. +These advantages appear to me to outweigh the disadvantages identified by Mr of there being more outsiders in the family household, possibly homesick and unhappy carers who are not living in their own homes, but at the establishment and the trouble and worry to the of what would be not infrequent, recruitment of new carers for Mrs , I hope perhaps a trifle pessimistically thought that on average carers would not spend more than about a year of course, some longer, some shorter, because such carers necessarily had to be fairly young, fit, strong people and the stresses and strains of the er the whole business she thought would lead to reasonably rapid turnover, not the emergence of long-term carers who might stay for a number of years, er, as I say I'd rather hoped that she may be unduly pessimistic about that, but, that, I accept what she says about it. +I think that agency care by its nature is likely to be more impersonal, is likely to involve a greater turnover of staff and would be considerably less satisfactory for Paul. +I also think that Mrs somewhat underestimated the formal hours required, I have noted from the er, the B M A documents setting out the charges to be expected to be levied by agencies in relation to nurses that extra hours will be charged per hour and I can foresee that if an agency contracts to provide ten hours formal care that er, it might be that with a number of carers they would find themselves very, very frequently putting in for extra hours of care. +For those reasons as I, have I, hoped made plain, it seems to me that the general scheme provided by Mrs is the one that ought to be adopted, however in my view when Mrs also makes provision for a second carer for some three hours a day that is well over egging the pudding, if I may adopt a phrase used by Mr at one stage during the case , I feel sure that in practice the two resident carers would not simply say well I'm on duty from eight am on Monday till twelve midday on Thursday and I shall do nothing during the rest of the week, I think that living in the household for, at +least periods of months and hopefully, well rather more than that, they would work things out in a way in which they in fact helped each other very considerably. +In addition Mrs scheme at page forty three provides for a further twenty eight hours a week to be provided in some other way, that it is suggested is parental care, but it seems to me that it would either be parental care or hired care. +That I think recognizes a possibility, by no means a probability, but a possibility that Paul might move away from home and the more real possibility that in due course that Mr and Mrs might be unable to bear their part further as carers. +To allow for those contingencies I think it right to allow the commercial rate for the twenty eight hours per week in inverted commas, parental care, rather than a discounted rate. +Accordingly this is schedules on page forty three, they overlap in numbers for their schedules three and four, erm come out at er the first of schedule three, thirty five thousand, six hundred and eighty six pounds seventeen per annum times thirteen and seven thousand, two hundred and eighty pounds per annum times thirteen as I er hope is correct arithmetically, but I invite correction in due course, adding all the figures for future care together, one gets to a figure of six hundred and fifty two thousand pounds, two, sorry, sixty hundred and fifty two, two, one zero, from that an agreed sum of thirty nine thousand, six hundred and ninety one pounds for disability living allowance, Paul's to be deducted leaving six hundred and twelve thousand, five hundred and nineteen pounds. +That finding effectively determines the agreed figures on which damages relating to the provision of suitable accommodation in turn, it is agreed that if two carers are to live in the household, that suitable new accommodation for the plaintiff can be acquired for two hundred and seventeen thousand, five hundred pounds, the house in which he at present lives will fe fetch eighty two thousand, five hundred pounds, a difference of a hundred and thirty five thousand pounds. +It is further agreed that the approach adopted by the court of appeal in the case of and incorporate of nineteen eighty nine, one queens bench page eight hundred and seventy eight, is that which I should adopt, er the person which seeks to persuade me that the percentage which I should apply should be four point five percent rather than the two percent used in that case by the court of appeal, he argues partly on the basis of er, evidence by Mr an architect who er, with the greatest respect to him, whilst I feel quite sure his architectural abilities are of the highest quality, I feel that as an economist he is perhaps er not more reliable than any other economist, er but er, Mr argues that er, recent falls in house prices show that houses are not the risk free inflation proof investments which the court of appeal assumed when and was decided. +It seems to me when deciding that case, the court of appeal were as Mr suggests taking a long-term view, I of course bear in mind the well known aphorism of Lord about er what happens in the long term, but er,my own view is, that in fact, a house should not actually be built as an investment at all it is something to live in, to make a home in, it is not something to make money out of, I very much regret the fact that er over recent years that view seems to have become somewhat old fashioned . +In so far as the house does represent a large capital asset, and it undoubtedly does, I am quite clear that in the long term, house prices are likely, generally to rise with inflation, indeed I would think must do so or perhaps to rise rather more quickly than inflation if there is a rising population and as there has been for very, very ma many years have passed,that, in the passed a decreasing occupancy rate. +I suspect that the proposition that broadly the price of housing will rise at least as fast as inflation could only be falsified if some pestilence almost on the scale of the black death were to occur so that supply vastly exceeded demand or significantly exceeded demand. +I think that whether as er Mr submits and is a guideline case and to be adapted to changing conditions or whether it is a case which lays down a bounding rate, that it is a case which I should follow and that the reasoning leading to the adoption of two percent as the appropriate percentage to be applied still applies today, thus the calculation is one hundred and thirty five thousand pounds times two percent, is two thousand, seven hundred pounds times seventeen, is forty five thousand, nine hundred pounds, to this there is to be added a cost of conversion, thirty two thousand, four hundred and seventy two pounds less the enhancement in value thereby created of twelve thousand, five hundred pounds that is a figure of nineteen thousand, nine hundred and seventy two. +Further figures have been agreed, three thousand pounds, eight hundred and fifty po fifty five pounds and fourteen hundred and twenty five pounds for additional costs of moving, maintenance and insurance respectively. +I am not persuaded that any further calculation relating to enhancement of value such as that adopted by Mr in case is required. +The figures which I have given, I hope, add up to a total for new accommodation of seventy one thousand, one hundred and fifty two pounds. +There remain three further issues, one relates to the cost of conversion of future transport. +It is agreed that an appropriate vehicle for the transport of the plaintiff in the future is a vehicle called a Nissan Serena, the plaintiff claims for a cost of conversion of such a vehicle at six thousand, two hundred pounds, it would need to be renewed of course from time to time and allowances made for that, the defendant says that a firm called can convert the same vehicle for less than the tenth of the price, six hundred pounds, Mr says that such advantages, if any, of the conversion for which the plaintiff claims are so minimal that it cannot possibly be right to spend ten times the money on achieving them. +That argument would I think be very persuasive if I were able to be confident that the levels of conversion is one which would be an adequate and proper one, it is relatively new, there is nothing wrong with that, it is not apparently been a conversion which has been put into practice, except in the last year because have only started conversion when the Nissan Serena was brought out. +Not very many sub-conversions have yet been done as I understand it and my source of information about the levels of conversion is solely from Mrs , called on behalf of the defendants and her real source of information is simply one family whom she has talked to on the telephone about it, who find the levels conversion of their Nissan Serena perfectly satisfactory for their twenty year old daughter. +I do not think that that evidence second and third hand as it is, is really enough for me to be confident that the conversion will answer. +I think it right to bear in mind the evidence of Mr a solicitor now specializing in re-habilitation work who is himself alas wheelchair bound, erm, he has directly relevant experience and he expressed the view that er two ramps leading up to the vehicle from the rear could be unsafe and were in his view generally less satisfactory than the platform with which the conversion equips the Nissan Serena, in those circumstances it seems to me I really have no choice but to er adopt the alternative of the conversion and er there is an agreed figure of thirty nine thousand, eight hundred and sixty six pounds in relation to that. +The next matter is this, that it is known that unfortunately the plaintiff will require an operation in due course to correct a I'm not sure whether deformity is quite the right word, mm, mm but it is close enough of the foot. +That operation as I understand it is certainly either available on the National Health or er likely to be available on the national health I have not understood that it is the sort of operation which will for any reason suddenly need to be done and I bear in mind that the plaintiff has had already an operation on his hip done on the National Health, it seems to me on the probabilities that there is a very strong probability that that operation will be done on the National Health and not done privately and for that reason it does not seem to me right to include any sum in relation to that in the damages. +There are of course the court of protection costs which are to be calculated and are not a source of disagreement. +The last matter relates to some possible supposed uncertainty about the plaintiff's further education at school, as I have already noted it is expected that the plaintiff will remain at school until he is nineteen, he has been there now for three years. +It is clear to me from Mr evidence that er he regards school as entirely appropriate for the plaintiff. +Mr and Mrs are as I understand it entirely satisfied with that school. +The only fear is that the local authority who would retain responsibility for Paul's schooling, after normal school leaving age, if he remains a child with a statement of special educational needs, might possibly say that they would no longer pay for him being at school. +I think it is absolutely plain that there is no possibility, that any local authority wherever Paul were living would find it possible to that he should cease to be a statement in child, it is quite clear, I think, that he is bound to remain a child with a statement of special educational needs, in those circumstances any local authority would have the statutory duty to provide for his education, either at or somewhere else and in practice it seems to me there is no reasonable possibility of his being moved from after he has spent, will it be probably more than four years there perhaps five years there, that I think is not a possibility which has to be catered for. +In those circumstances it does not seem to me right to leave open, whether the court has power to do so I'm doubtful, but in any event it does not seem to me right to leave open a question of whether there should be some damages to provide for the possibility that er Paul may have to leave school, nor do I think that it is a situation in which any contingency award should be made in respect of that. +To summarize the total award is thus made up in this way there are agreed items as shown on the er schedule of the plaintiff's submissions which come to three hundred and fifty two thousand, five hundred and ninety six pounds, +I hope that figure is right er, I have to confess that I have not added it up and er the copy that I have, the five and the nine could be mistaken for other figures, but I hope that there the right figures to that must be added first the general damages a calculation which like all by other calculations need to be carefully checked, I would er calculate the interest on general damages to date would be five thousand, two hundred and seven pounds future care totals six hundred and twelve thousand, five hundred and seventeen pounds suitable accommodation, seventy one thousand, one hundred and fifty two pounds, transport costs thirty nine thousand, eight hundred and sixty six pounds, that makes a total of one million, two hundred and six thousand, three hundred and thirty eight pounds that is the amount which I would be minding to award, I understand that the parties in the light of that would wish to have further discussions about the matter +For the total I counted two pounds different from his Lordship, I +erm +I came to two pounds difference about something +yes, the future care +erm, I think it's in the future care, I rather think that perhaps the future care ought to have been five hundred and nineteen, not five hundred and seventeen +that's why I come to two pounds separate er +yes +er six thousand one, one, nine +you're, you're absolutely right , I'm afraid in, in erm I, I,re remember seeing that discrepancy and I'm not quite sure why it didn't get into my notes +your Lordship's findings were to the age of nineteen a total of nine, three, six, five, O. From the age of nineteen, six, five, two, two, one, O and from the sum of those two figures +yes +you deducted three, nine, six, nine, one, and so whatever it is should end in nine at least +yes +because it's one taken away from +yes yes I think it should be six, twelve, five, one, nine +yes, so we altered it? +yeah, you're absolutely right, obviously so sorry +so one, two O +although that is the only error I've made in these figures I, not myself +I haven't done precise cal computation of interest, but, erm the rough one indicate that it is something in the region of five thousand, two hundred but I quite agree with his Lordship's figure of five, two, O, seven, total one is one, two, one, six, three, four, O +yes +my lord various er matters arise under that, we would ask er at this stage erm not for a judgement, two reasons, but for an adjournment, the first reason is the court of protection costs will have to be calculated +yes +and the second reason is that we wish, we wish to take professional advice from experienced accountants on the merits or demerits of the structured settlement +yes +to which one might add this additional gloss, erm recently there have been under a statutory instrument which regulates er, the ca computation of court of protection costs in the event of the structure in a way differently from the traditional one and the defendants would wish to argue +yes +er that if the structure is to be offered, accepted and approved then court of protection costs should be lower than it would be, if the lump sum order was eventually made +I see +and one, my, letting myself +yes +to say that in fairness to them, so what we would respectfully submit is that your Lordship having assessed the damages and erm, together with interest other than court of protection costs that the figure which we had mentioned and, and adjourn the matter for consideration of a structured settlement erm and that's the first figure erm, that, the, the second thing, is that there is money in court er we would ask for a direction of the balance of the money, the balance over and above the money in court which is an extra three hundred and six thousand, three hundred and forty pounds at the present stage be brought into court within a reasonable time which we would note is fourteen days, maybe the defendant would ask longer, we haven't discussed it. +It's, it's four fourteen days +yes certainly +the first thing that we, we, we would respect is and suggest and this is a course which has been offered erm, erm, in order of other cases, er, we should ask that the er because of the adjournment necessary for investigation, the, the money will attract interest and we would ask for an order that the erm, the plaintiff is entitled to interest at the special account rate on any lump sum hereafter ordered to be paid, now what that means is that if at the end of the day the instruction say goes off and the conventional lump sum order is made, we are entitled to interest on the whole of that lump sum, if on the other hand a structured settlement is put into position and er part is either applied to the purchase of the annuities, in the commercial way to try and settle it or taken it back by the health authority, in consideration for self funding structured settlement, then we would only get the interest on the actual cash we have been kept +yes +a simple example if the contingency sum was to be six hundred thousand pounds, the balance were go to the structure, er we would have the er interest on the six hundred thousand pounds contingency sum only er +yeah +the purpose of this double arrangement is to try and arrange something of advantage to both parties erm +yes +and we, we would ask of that, but the next point and erm, is this my Lord erm at the moment erm the negotiations are erm proceeding in relation to the house, about which we have heard evidence, er, we could not properly buy it until it had been investigated by the court of protection and there was approval of that, and er it will be necessary for er consideration to be given as to how it should be purchased, in practical terms, firstly your Lordship has erm awarded a figure of seventy one thousand pounds, then there is the eighty thousand pounds on the existing house which takes one up to a hundred and fifty or thereabouts, and one sees that the special damages and interest thereon comes to something over fifty two thousand pounds to which these er parents will be entitled in the normal way, and if they were to apply, they might do and apply, that would go a long way to purchasing it and the court of protection, if it approved that might take the view that it would be fair to take something out of the notional aspect of damages for loss of earnings, because after all the plaintiff would have spent his earnings for housing and so on in the future, that, that is the sort of problems that now have to be tackled er what, what we would respect and suggest is er simply that there is liberty to apply erm. +The sort of applications which we might wish to make in the future would be for an example that an interim payment be made out of the money in court or that the money be transferred to the public trust office, we don't know how we should proceed yet, but if we are at liberty to apply generally +yes +simply to put the matter into effect, and cover it, that apply to erm +er, er how would one would at liberty to apply in relation to monies required for purchase of new accommodation +my Lord is, I would respect that they are at liberty to apply generally +generally oh well +well cos what +yeah +we, we can then come back to the court, erm as, as other orders which we would seek and we would seek an order for costs, erm clearly +yes +after today +and erm er, we, and that there are various other erm we ways in which the parties should be protected, erm, which I haven't had a chance to look at today clearly the costs of investigating, the proper costs of investigating any structured settlement would have to be dealt with on a later occasion, that it is somehow awarded, instead of protected that the plaintiff gives the defendant notice, seven day's notice before instructing any account on to advise on the structured settlement, so if the defendant thinks the plaintiff is being wholly unreasonable they can come back to court, quite at liberty to apply and get, make his point of the directions on the therefore within these context these are the sort of orders which, on the behalf of the plaintiff I can see and I would respectively suggest that we go away, draw them up and hand them in toy our Lordship and come back later in the day if we have difficult +er difficulty in agreeing how so +well no, erm, Mr +Your learned friend very fairly set the sort of orders one would expect in the case of this sort, erm, can I only add one thing which erm there is still a, failing erm his right there should have been an adjournment this morning that the question of a structured settlement could be investigated, all these people who have indeed, it must be from the plaintiff's point of view as well, desirable that those investigations be erm carried out, with the greatest, greatest speed possible, obviously it takes time to er instruct the and so on and erm, it seemed er to me that it would be appropriate to include some of the I happen to discuss with my friend, erm providing for the matter to be brought back not later than a certain time +well if,if both parties have liberty to apply that would really cover that wouldn't it?, +I mean if, if you felt that if there were any, it's unlikely I think but you felt that there were any dragging of the feet in relation to the structured settlement you could come back and ask the court to make orders limiting time for further discussions or whatever you thought appropriate +well certainly one could do that, but it, it, it would preferably if my suspicions if er imposing perhaps not the right word, er define er at the outset we erm the time limits that er are envisaged for the obtaining of magistrate licence or than that I'm +I'm rather reluctant to do that because I have absolutely no basis for knowing how long negotiations of this sort are likely to take, erm and if I say well er that such negotiations must be completed by +oh no +an arbitrary date I mean +I'm not saying that negotiations should be completed by a certain date, but that the matter should come back to court by a certain date so that there is therefore er er is a time, an incentive for the +well what sort of time are you suggesting? +well I haven't discussed this with my learned friend, but it seems to me a date sometime next term would be appropriate, er which would give another term,or so for the plaintiff side to investigate these matters +oh the timetable which I as well will, will erm, would be about two months, the first step has to be taken by the defendant because we don't know yet whether they are prepared to oppose the structure, and if so, what sort of structure they would be prepared to oppose, erm, if and when, er a formal offer of structure came through, I would have little doubt that we could instruct accountants and get a response within a matter of weeks, sometimes one has to if they're doing an commercial structure within a week or so because the offer is only open for ten days +yeah +erm the the order which one, one I concern, maybe we can discuss if to, if, if the defendants were prepared to undertake to erm provide any as to instruct within twenty eight days from today, the matter should be list on and this convention on a Friday, Friday in about two or two and a half month's time from now, which will take us in the next term, I, I beg a suggestion +I, er are you both in effect asking me to adjourn to a date which in a moment will agree on +yes +but that be the way +my Lord I think so yes, erm if I can just say this I understand on the structures that a letter has been, er, an offer has been made by a letter erm of the structure and obviously there would be and that, that was done I think some time ago, erm and it might be my Lord how to what sort of structure is, but, but, erm I think from our side, erm we, we've taken the first step and we're going to +yeah +and, and therefore all potentially I think we'll be very much in the plaintiff's court, although +should we, should we look at say the first Friday after the middle of January, something of that sort, I, I haven't got a calendar on my desk at the moment I'm afraid, but erm +my Lord if we draft an order for your approval we can do the dates +yes alright +the only thing I will say +certainly we let erm +is that we can't move until we know what sort of structure is being offered, the general offer of structure is to take advice because we, we could then but unless we know what is forthcoming we don't +yes +well it would be very helpful if you'd like to draft an order, erm as I understand it Mr there's nothing which Mrs has asked for which you er contend I should er +no my Lord +er I, I should refuse him +no, certainly not and er I await for liberty to apply for further to to fall out over anything +yes +then, then er, then, then, then we can come back +yes, very well, thank you very much, well I better advised that all these take with me,thank you both very much for the + +lunch time back on from Aberdeen . +make yourself available . +Er tomorrow and er Thursday are even more critical than today when we actually haven't got any hard of hearing members in today. +Er +I don't th when I tested it, it doesn't affect the hearing aid. +Doesn't no, but the point if that was being contemplated and today we get away with it but we wouldn't get away with it tomorrow or Thursday. +Well the only think which erm, which erm I I and I said look this er system because no way . +before before the meeting proper may I refer you to first of all the voice amplification system is currently working but er there are some difficulties with it and it may during the day deteriorate to a state that it is more trouble than it's worth. +In which case the er calculated very kindly brought in a system mikes so, so be warned of that please. +Secondly I did write to all the members of the Council about the issue of the British National Corpus and their desire to have a record of English as she is spoke and their is a gentleman from here today, if you would care to stand up to identify yourself please. +Yes. +Who I have no doubt will be very happy to discuss with members during lunch break what what the Project is. +O K thank you. +confirm that the minutes of the twelfth of October are correct . +Yes I just wondered if I could ask Mr er if it was item nine page seven yes, its item nine erm row five and its about a report being brought to the committee on trans proportion policies relating to public transport by extending free transport to school children and students beyond the statuary obligations of the council. +Er I just really wanted to know when that's likely to occur. +. +Oh I don't think I'm able to give you a specific answer. +Erm will question . +. +There are 2 petitions on the agenda but the one will be taken with item 2. +I therefore call upon , Chairman of the village association, to present a petition about traffic at . +Mr Chairman councillors, ladies and gentleman as chairman of the village Association I am pleased to present the following petition which has been signed by 174 residents representing over ninety five per cent of the . +We the undersigned being the residents committee for Hertfordshire County Council bring forward and promptly carry out plans for the through the village especially in view of the notorious and dangerous traffic conditions and designation of the A four two five one through the village as the southern entrance to from the A forty one bypass road. +Mr Chairman, the traffic problem has been with us for many years as our village existed before the motor car. +The old A forty one trunk road just grew up through our village erm and erm just exists. +We now have a splendid new bypass road for which thank you very much, the only problem is that it has halved the traffic but doubled the speeds. +Erm our problem can be summed up in one word, 'accidents'. +The major cause of these accidents is drivers going too fast for the road conditions that exist in our village. +There are two different areas of these accidents, one the driveways of the various village's some of which are blind erm with no pavements and also the four minor roads which junction onto, onto the main road in the village. +In section 1 of two hundred metres of road we have counted over twenty six accidents, people coming out of the drive, parking cars and this kind of thing erm in the last five years. +These are accidents that did not involve personal injury but involved er physical damage to walls, cars, gates, driveways etc., with cars coming down the road. +Now, I'm not an expert in +modern traffic calming measures however er I believe we have experts on the Council er in these matters but I believe that by narrowing the road and perhaps giving us pavements because one of our problems is that we have not got a continuous pavement through the village, and it is necessary to cross the road four times in some cases to walk from one end to the other. +Erm and possibly the installation of mini roundabouts at the minor junctions erm would give us quite a lot of benefit. +see what has been done in Kings Langley and Apsley for something similar, on a similar scale, for ourselves. +Thank you for listening to me. +Please give us some expert assistance . +Thank you. +Thank you very much for that and er . +There has been no other business items and the same for there's been no questions either. +Before item one, I'd like to propose we break for lunch as near as one o'clock as business allows. +For the convenience of the members of the public I intend to take item five by erm statement. +one or two members who are resident in St Albans did ask me about their position on item two St Albans Transport Study er the advice that I gave them was that unless they er did which is likely to be affected by any identifiable schemes in the study they do not have a need to declare either a pecuniary or a non-pecuniary interest. +We now move onto item one. +hand over some questions at the end of each section I will then ask each spokesman to present their budget. +Thank you Mr Chairman. +Er you will all be aware I think that the budget has been running for some months and er I suppose a lot of you either as spokes persons or as members of groups have actually been dealing with the budget issues in some detail. +Therefore, I don't propose to take a great deal of time going through this report. +You will also have heard er in the question earlier about the fact that there are references to budgetary issues both in the minutes of the last Environment Committee and also in the County Council on thirtieth of November which did refer specifically the fire service review and also passenger transport. +In terms of the process erm we are the first er major service committee to consider its budget for next year and I think everyone will be looking at us to to set a pattern for the rest of this week. +Erm what will happen is that we will er hopefully at this meeting er set a budgetary, budgetary position within the guidelines required by the policy committee and then that will go forward together with all the other service committees to the policy committee on the twenty seventh of January and from then we will go on to the County Council on the fifteenth of February. +The the committee itself erm the report itself is structured in that it takes you from the starting point of this year's ninety three, ninety four resource budget. +It then proposes and suggests some certain technical adjustments and makes allowances for previous policy decisions and losses of income etc., and leads you through to er being able to propose a package measures within the policy committee guidelines. +Table one on er page three er which refers to mostly to F appendix one,er of seventy three point nought million pounds or ninety four-ninety five er moving to seventy two point eight million in ninety five-six. +And seventy four point two in ninety six-ninety seven. +As I've said the Policy Committee guideline was that we should set a budget within the range seventy two million to seventy three point three million, which means at the lower level, if you go for the lower level er to which says for ninety four five about almost exactly a million pounds. +If you go for the higher limit, then that allows you to go with the growth of approximately three hundred thousand. +The following pages er then describe the budgetary changes commentary on a number of and I don't propose to go through them individually. +Except I think just to emphasize one or two minor issues but the savings from last year, that was the underspendings from ninety two ninety three were, as you recall last year er used to support this year's budget er those savings underspending are no longer available and therefore have been taken out of the consideration The staff costs for T S G schemes that are mentioned at the bottom of page five erm, the programme this year which is actually listed over the page at table two does erm indicate that erm we are now contemplating link road and bypass next year and staff available are needed to complete that work or fortunately we've been able to secure a start on which enables some of the staff to be transferred to work on that scheme. +Moving on then to the capital programme erm which is summarized in table two on page six and er go into that in detail in the two. +At the bottom of page six, top of page seven I think that issue there requires a resolution from you in that we have, the officers have suggested that we spend er six hundred thousand pounds out of the minor works budget on those four schemes but we should reserve the remainder of that minor works budget for approximately and er that report should be put to the March Committee. +paragraphs last five er and six er identify identify the number of options for, for change which allows you to er determine the authority budget and to either go for growth to within the overall particular areas, savings in particular areas, or to make switches of resources between services or within services. +One or two of the items of growth particularly have been er identified as illustrative which may mean that you can choose er almost any amount you like er to be spent on those particular items just identify er a figure which you may consider the starting point. +And als also mention some of the, some of the items do have staffing implications and if you resolve to increase expenditure in certain areas, such as traffic problem. +That will require additional staff and we need to er look at that afterwards to see what effect that has on the er staffing budgets. +There are also some there which er can or cannot at your discretion for more than one year er terminology now being used about recurrent not recurrent expenditure, it's up to you except where we are, you are resolving to recruit staff or reduce staff erm, it would be useful to have an indication from you as to whether you wish the money to be erm carried through until next year or whether you can see it as a one off. +Just picking up on an item on page fourteen about the externalization programme that obviously is going straight through the process er and should be resolved in the next week or so. +picking up the staff costs there was some concern about putting that in there because we were awaiting the result of the T S G settlement. +That settlement has now come through you'll see the details in the papers er but we also want to have regard to the fact that the award for the and bridges has actually been reduced substantially by thousand pounds the total reduction in that area approach one point five million pounds. +Page sixteen structural maintenance of local roads erm I know that there is some possibility that er groups will propose an increase er a reduction in in that area and to increase the contribution from the management reserve fund. +If it goes as high as an additional half a million each year then the structural management fund will not last through the three years. +need to be aware of that. +The paragraph eight budget monitor does require also a resolution in relation to carried forward from +underspending this year. +You will have erm before you on the sheet a number of resolutions from the groups in relation to the budget and although the motions haven't been put, I'll just refer you to a statement which I produced which seems to compare the compare the motions the draft motions from each of the groups. +Er from which you will see er three entirely different packages, proposals, and er why why this was achieved. +One of the at the end of this meeting +Can I just make the point of clarification in what said there, that as far as staffing additional works spread through for example we are assuming that staff costs are within the figures you are looking at and the the work that was referring to was was after you made your decision to will need to take some element of that cost into the start of the budget there is no staff figures that would occur after you've formalised this budget we are not aware of so there there will be . +I can then take questions I think er answer any questions that you might have . +Mr can I just ask the erm about the I think it's very that he's produced this er so that we can look across and make sort of comparisons between the proposals of the groups. +Erm presumably we are talking here next year, talking about sort of years effects, and I just wondered what would be the effects that in general terms if we were looking at the full year effects? +Erm all the figures there are as far as I know full year effects, so there are no half year effects. +Those different effects in following years in relation to we got. +Er this er James can I ask you erm if we could establish what the stage er the next stage remain unspent probably er so that we the er paper indicates er er schedule of balance of a thousand pounds . +Chairman to that question are rather caused forgive me if I to answer that question. +Er members will recall that the potential savings that might from the original was something in the order of eight to nine hundred thousand pounds and of course the majority of those er present the saving will be policy will be consideration. +Erm I'm not at all certain quite er what will come out of that policy and what savings there will be at the end of that exercise. +This report does touch on if I find the paragraph speak. +Thank you, does touch on that issue and refers to the point that I made earlier that that the proposals having been referred to that policy and how it meets with er more work. +I'm not saying I can give you a figure, all I can say is that originally identifiable will not be forthcoming now because some of this proposal is not meeting them. +Er er rejective the issues requested by the earlier policy. +I am sorry I can't be any more help with that at this stage what I can do is to take that question away and circulate the information after I've done some sums. +discussion with the Chairman . +the Chief Officer don't quote me by it embarrass er I've had with carried out on a larger sum other than that available. +At worst. +Are there any more questions? +I am concerned in seven two as eventually savings. +While we are talking about the reassured that we not going to be dealing with the position of . +Was that er question environment ? +I'm sorry Chairman, what am I being asked? +Forgive me Chairman erm I actually question +. +I do apologise, I do apologise yourself order I see it's been placed on the early question question again? +Chairman I asked you Item seven two when the talking of laying and reassurance that this will not include the of the above. +Which is certainly right . +seven two er refers to planning environment er and not to and also refers to a type of actually . +Since the confusion environment issues erm, +three minutes +perhaps the questions can be answered at the . +I can say that erm none of the bonuses that currently exist within the fire rescue service are included upon +so no determination has been made about as yet and therefore upon that are not included in these calculations. +Are there no further questions? +I will pass you over then to erm Mr to make a presentation. +Chairman of my all of the offices or er tremendous amount of work which has gone into the local report to the Committee, er but also to the tremendous amount of work which has been done behind the scenes which I know has been going on with er that is quite good for the officers erm looking at the budget er i in the line with what actually saying for them. +I would like to move erm er the grant most of this on the er the order of make up erm both with one to eight. +Erm and although I will briefly go through some technical ones erm motion number two to erm er because it's in relation to growth savings that we have the differences between the budgets and which are actually being er proposed and er I suppose we do need to to go through number six carefully as well about structural maintenance funds. +Er we actually need to withdraw from but I think in relation to the other business about the erection of the I think that essentially routes are agreed without er without so perhaps it's structural erm maintenance . +Erm the the first er labour motion is really still a technical one +. +quickly go to to number number two. +L it's presenting the changes for the next year er are really so we can have a two way and a two big. +Er two ways essentially erm the labour see erm for next year. +We are operating within a of because of the government this Council is erm nett cuts of all its services of four point two million reduction of four point er two million and the policy system . +Er to look at the budget for ninety four to ninety five in ranges of seventy two million to seventy three point three. +The seventy two million erm for this Committee is the labour that would involve roughly er nett savings of about one million er pounds because we and no doubt all the routes of course have to look at the social budget and where their priorities are and in order for us to er do other things perhaps indication in relation to and also will provide primary school er budgets. +We do need to be looking essentially about budget of two million pounds erm for this particular er Committee. +What the is saying to of er of savings is that in the Appendix Four summarises the possibilities for savings for next year. +Erm the labour group is prepared to accept all of those,accept, one er exception er related relates to item number twelve so that is the information the planning and environment erm in parliament. +Er now we think that is absolutely er essential and that should have a serious effect on Information Services. +very much but we think it important that you . +Erm if you look at what we are proposing, planning and environment in terms of er in terms of +to say that in fact various significant costs budgets for for next year's. +Very much the view of of this group that we have an excellent planning and environment department service led by a distinguished er director and say that . +Erm and we would very much er long to see work that department does erm continuing er also be continuing er beyond actually . +So its taking quite a . +The other exception to accept the erm the the savings identified as possibilities relate to item thirty structural and maintenance of of the roads we could make a cut of of half a million. +Erm we are saying that we certainly couldn't go that far, maybe two hundred thousand but we would want to put it back so you will have an equal there in terms of spending. +From the structural maintenance I think all members who remember before they start er +structural benefits that we do have this backlog twenty six and a half million pounds of work. +We're not talking just about roads, we're talking about what we call technically, I've thought about what everybody else calls pavements. +Er now these are more important asked about so I think we should be very clear on it before er we reduce spending . +In terms of growth that we actually want erm unlike I think perhaps one of the we don't want to put all our eggs into erm one one basket erm one million pounds in terms of er of course we want to do that the income of the budget which is actually feasible and practicable er in terms of of I take it that as where it says the Liberal Democrats are going from a growth of a hundred and fifty million erm on town centres that there probably was an error . +In terms of transportation growth. +Erm want to see expansion in half a million there. +Passenger transport in order to promote the new transportation erm policies of the to get off the ground erm during the erm previous council. +seriously do need to put erm into the passenger transport . +Town centres er we think there should be growth of two hundred thousand, it's not enough. +Erm we are still not going to enough we we need something like just over half a million to do all the schemes er which er and we could do next year and this Committee is going to have to decide there, which er town centres are actually going to be done and which are going to be erm left out. +. +In terms of planning growth erm right take orders item number four erm, this is really just a correction because attendance for fifty nine should actually be fifty. +Erm and in terms of rights of way er growth orders we would like to see growth of two hundred about two hundred pounds. +This route must be taken very seriously er rights of way, planning investigation for the environment which as I did problems the other sources in terms of right of way, in terms of unresourcing rest of the backlog giving instructions in terms of. +They're all underfunded you've got to report we need to actually er the rest of that so that's very er important . +Noticeable notice that our our growth er,items er six and seven additional enforcement officer er officers for countryside protection, er we can actually like to do that and I'll just come on to that in a moment when I get to two B but also in terms of growth er this group wants to see ten er whole time fire fighters, additional whole time fire fighters erm we won't get better in terms of confidence though fire engine survey this year but we we'd rather sort of form +. +that the Home Office er er and Chief Fire Officer not for the first time er this year but in previous erm budget. +er originally one twenty additional whole time fire fighters to be go. +fire fighters . +Er we feel that it's very important that we do have an additional ten so that er what before next day to Royston and initially on a temporary basis erm for at er er Watford so we address the problems in those areas. +Erm trading standards er European Community Union erm is putting up more and I think most of us would say that in this area are to be welcomed +. +growth of eighteen thousand . +If I could Chairman erm just a little bit erm about the erm conservatives erm proposals. +Erm what the conservatives are going to do is they do what's in a sort of er is going for very considerable cuts in the budget of this erm . +They are not going to support erm ten additional er fire fighters. +They are not going to do anything to the rights of way in spite of what they are being asked to do by the +Well it's very, they are talking about er other issues up to they are talking about the workforce and of the erm the the report from the and er it seems that they don't really want much to programme forward which I have put for next year very structural maintenance of the and I what the services are actually doing, they have lost council probably say that they are out of control. +Erm and their approach seems to be where we're not going to be able to get our budget through. +Erm let let's sort of cut or let's go without our saying erm we will keep you off the council . +Well it ain't going to work because for a part that have slammed V A T on domestic fuels and in fact if all of the cuts of the conservative government, all the tax increases you have quoted cuts. +It actually amounts to an increase of ten p in each +government, it it's various years so I hate to sort of say, ah well council taxes cuts will be a bit lower er with the conservatives going to be an argument which is but halfway to equal counties so I think we can sort of discount really what the conservatives say but I will say the liberal democrats are to be. +Erm we which is actually putting forward a budget which is responding to what the Policy Committee asks us to do. +Er it said produce seventy two to seventy three three, so two produces a budget of seventy two million in two b you can see but you will see in two b that we are actually saying you can have an actual sort of implemental approach which will take you up to three billion. +Erm you will notice that er halfway through which is after item five, er I have actually done the sum because it comes to sort of half er half a million, er and it's +. +what we're saying to the liberals, you know, well sort of have a look at this, look at what we're sort of proposed +. +because we know what we want to go beyond . +We would be amenable to er friendly amendments, erm of er er we know you wondered what more instructive perhaps we do +. +because we don't fuss, we don't the balance public transport, rights of way, traffic calming, erm er er and so on. +Erm so who do we put into the suggestion of perhaps you will look at that with a very serious and maybe sort of er or by to take seventy three million. +In terms of which you better if we could do that erm, if we could do that. +I went to look because most of for five erm and we all agreed on er technical and er +. +number six er what this is basically saying is we want to do two point history structural maintenance erm fire drill but anything that's been taken out of this budget in that area, we should replace by from that . +Thank you very much Mr is that er +. +Thank you. +We now pass over to Charles . +Thank you erm well that was a very interesting introduction usual political statements there are many of interest to this County Council and its services, erm their worth repeating as part of the time just to to add to the with the labour party er for us prices. +. +. +Conservative Party, I listen to you . +The whole essence of Conservative Party that's put before the Environment Committee today and I remind us that it was only in a very short few months ago that this Council might be at cuts of up to twenty million pounds in order that low in the very country . +And er can can we scrape away to say Chairman that er, you know this, this, this situation er it is not to do with government policies, we are paying a very heavy price to this country for world recession as we have paid this very high price, very very large amounts of money that had to be used for people who are unfortunate enough to fall out of employment. +We have, we are also paying for the very very high price for that er and so it at where we look at , the money we are proposing to spend er in the future that we are grouped in that direction and that's the, that's the er budget today. +Erm I don't need to go through er all of the elements er er I will take it because there is general agreement er er with a very large and this is good to see that all of us er in all three groups are proposing to take advantage of savings identifying in the various departments County Council. +Erm I would like to say a few words about the Fire and Rescue Service, er the Fire Cover Review Panel er which rests erm with couple of months before Christmas er it's first meeting, received a report from the Chief Officer that in restructuring the Fire Service to get better use out of it to er spread the cuts could find savings of up to nine hundred thousand pounds in that process and they are friends in the Labour, Liberal Democrat groups have simply taken the good aspects of that the plus side of it and rejected the side what faces the side anyway. +. +In other words they are being totally unfair in that process and as a result of this more people are likely to suffer as a result of fire Council and savings which are clearly er is proposed er that is Conservative review that we should not be using new money or money within the environment budget which is better stretched for all the other services, to find that other fire fighters as much as we agree they are needed when clearly there is another pot of money which was available for this service and which the other two groups have decided they will take +and so this group is prepared to addition +fire fighters which will give us er more consistency in cuts we have Chairman of their meeting er er a number of months er during the past year when we are by Home seventy five. +I have no doubt that we could around that figure but the Chief Officer rightly believes and indeed Her Majesty's Inspector rightly believes that we are operating too much technology most of the time. +Er the other fire fighters would enable us to hit that target on a regular basis and in fact we will also the target during those periods when . +Er so we are all very keen to see this get these extra fire fighters but as he hasn't identified the source for which they could pay more, this believes that fifty thousand pounds which slices , there is a good way of doing it and suggest that that's the way we should do it. +Erm in terms of rights of way we are very concerned indeed as a group er the rights of way and this purpose we have identified er an additional fifty thousand pounds in which we hope will help +. +er to advance +er I'm sorry to produce the problems er erm we cannot this time for large sum of money which er the labour group in particular er want to provide in this area er to spend on rights of way. +We believe that there are on a number of priorities er and this one does not seem quite as high er on our list as it does er on the labour. +Erm we are very concerned at these er in terms of traffic calming. +The one thing that seems to be identified by members of the public er when they come here and address present erm petitions to us as they did this morning er they want in most parts, in Hertfordshire . +They want to regain the natural environments. +They don't want their children to be underspread everytime they walk out . +So traffic calming er is very very now er an agenda supports the general thrust of this County Council +Road Safety had national accolades er and so that is a very important element for us. +It is also that the the maintenance of our road schedules continues to a very high standard and so we aren't er, we have to take er the money from that source er and I will be hoping that perhaps in this we may find that we do not need to raid that particular fund so that we may find +sums of money from general purposes or whatever. +Er so we are concerned that that money perhaps future time so that we can continue to spend whatever money we are doing at the present time er to our roads. +Er passenger transport, er we have over the last three four years er taken sort of er in passenger transport . +This has been done with very harmonic negotiations on contracts, er big operators er and our substantial savings. +Many of us would have liked to have seen the savings that were made, recycling of the passenger transport area. +It was unfortunate that during this period of time there were a number of pressures er on us, not just County Council for that money to be spent elsewhere and that money was er brought back to the centre and we distributed all of the the Services . +Er on this occasion we would like to see some of the savings that were made recycled in the passenger transport area. +Er because this would support policies which er, this County Council produce all last year. +It's the usual transportation policy to have in general as +. +Er and so think er not we should not just have a policy for the we should put some money towards it as well. +So we would have an additional two hundred pounds. +Er trading standards continue to be under pressure er we ought to agree on that er and we I I believe we may not have difficulty er in achieving the additional value of this type of almost on an annual basis if we are short of the trading standards . +Er if I deal with the er sob sheet now Chairman erm I move the resolutions on the conservative group er that er er the budget er of seventy one point three based on appendix four with the amendments table. +Erm there is an error in that we have included er at two in that we have added in a reference there to further additional meant that we have taken the budget earlier guidelines here three point three, we are not proposing to do that and therefore that should be deleted. +. +Erm and Items er six er it is now voted that that figure er should be +point six million er from reserves er and the additional as we have said this to er our traffic calming proposals. +er earlier question to have added er a further resolution at that's a hundred and fifty thousand pounds of identified savings from the Fire Recovery Review Panel be used to add an additional fire fighters updatable this be er general. +It will remain that this will eventually er and we will in fact . +Er I move the +I think Mr is that before we set the . +Yeah before . +May I ask you a question on erm, the main question on the sixth . +Chairman can I just clarify that we we're saying up to the erm what I've said in speaking was that two point one million beyond that what is actually in the budget erm which is . +We wanted a neutral budgetary tax overall. +There are no . +Thank you Mr Chairman, before I start there are erm a number of sort of type errors. +fifty thousand and do not fifty million . +Erm the total on the savings side should be two point four three that is the erm the sheet that we have received this morning is correct and lastly I think number six so those points can be taken on board Mr Chairman I will start. +First of all to thank the officers for all their hard work especially those who er staying until half past eight, nine o'clock last night who tried to to supervise . +break budget ninety four ninety five. +In doing so there are a number of people wish to see on what to do. +Firstly, we want to keep our policies and to start our committees. +I'd like to . +Essentially we want to go to agreements concerned brilliant services in the county. +The services that this Committee provides are important. +transportation policies for the County Council through to last year. +Er this is . +Lastly we want to sort of clear up some of the mess that is made by the previous conservative registration . +. +Well let's go through it. +savings and the use of these quite a lot of priorities. +our first priorities is to pay fire . +We already S S A on the fire service. +I've included every Home Office, Home Office standards by staking money on offices we will be doing so. +On Rights of Way we want to we want to spend money on doing a sort of and we also want to reduce the backlog of work up. +We want to spend some money on employ Enforcement Officer to stop happening again which is going to be so costly to this Council. +Er how many other Water Boards are there. +. +I'll show you the standards light of recent legislation . +We are seeking to increase public transport. +In some ways information town centre management scheme but clearly we are seeking to boost that's the jewel in the crown. +This will meet and let's put it into context thousand pounds per district but Mr will put the money into production obviously and I think there's something talk about traffic economy road balance. +I mean information is right to reduce the tax some . +I mean we have heard this morning the petition. +We have a lot of petitions from members of the public . +This will go some way traffic . +On a service +. +one hundred and twenty thousand in the last two years and what we're doing is putting some money into some sta stabilise the service. +pounds but we are prepared to reduce spending by three hundred thousand pounds and what we seek is to enjoy problems . +We agreed to a spending on capital statement, we do agree to spending six hundred thousand pounds for the much needed paper and look at the council rate monies spent later this year. +why I wonder you say to be or not to be, +. +That is the question +. +Well known this group set budget priorities and . +. +. +Does anyone wish to speak . +Er Mr Hudson . +Chairman can I set set . +now . +Does anyone wish to speak interest . +Er Mr Hudson. +Chairman I'll get the ball rolling I suppose erm I have to deal with the ludicrous sh statement from County Council now the savings, proposed savings on the fire cover review. +What is actually suggested is that instead of not taking twenty eight fire fighters out in St Albans, we do, having replaced that saving of twenty eight fire fighters with ten others. +Absolutely farcical suggestion. +Chief Officer . +The Environment Committee I was talking about this proposal at this meeting. +The Environment Committee that I was talking about this proposal at this meeting. +The Environment Committee had it's last last meeting by a majority vote, made a decision that the proposed reductions in service for the Fire Service sh er er should not be gone ahead with and that and that issues around the should be looked at again at the . +middle of various further further further er further er discussions and the outcome will be reported to the next member of erm er the next meeting of the Environment Sub Committee. +Er at the moment there are no savings identified and it seems to me that this Committee needs to deal with the budget as it finds. +It currently has a service within the Fire Service wh which costs a certain amount and we can't presume and I would, I suspect that Councillor is is actually trying to do is to get in by the back door for cut that we will then be forced to to make the March March March Committee well I hope that members of this at this this this Committee would reject that er suggestion as it at the last meeting. +But what's more serious is that one of the phrases that he used was more people are going to suffer in cover. +Now that to me is a grossly irresponsible statement to make and it is total rubbish. +The position that was presented by myself and my colleagues at the last er er er at the last last er last meeting was to indicate a higher level of fire cover within the Service that Councillor wanted and the Committees supported the view that we should have a higher level subject to further discussions of the fire of the fire . +It's agreed that we should be looking at improving the standard in D risk areas etc etc etc etc but we should have a higher level of cover, not putting anybody into a suffering situation, quite the reverse that we would have an improved level of of cover within the County and the Chief Officer he's said this time and time again. +The Chief Officer said quite clearly last er last time that the decisions were decisions for members and members came up with a view last time that we should not remove that whole time crew from St Albans which was the one firm decision that was made at the last meeting and what Councillor is now suggesting that we should take out those twenty eight whole time fire fighters and then try and give us ten back if we're lucky. +It seems, it it it seems that to me that that's quite outrageous. +If I if I if I could just er er er just move on on to a couple of other other other points i in in what's been said. +Clearly the traffic calming proposals for the Liberal Democrats is a very high figure by comparison to the others but there are traffic calming elements in the other item +. +that have been proposed in our own er proposals. +In particular the issue of er can't find it now but the one on highways er where er er where where it where it quite rightly mentions the concern of the public about payments. +Structural maintenance er yes erm yes down the bottom I was looking down erm and and we are proposing a significantly lower er cut on both the the officers and proposal there that the other er er that the other er er that the other parties. +That goes to all of us er er er and our safety at various calming er measures. +Er but calming is not the only issue er er calming is is important and we recognise that but it seems to me that with that you have to enhance reliable public transport. +We have to see more people being encouraged to use the buses and not their own cars. +If you simply put up but people still have to use their cars to get from A to B you're not actually improving the environment at all and it seems that adding added habits habits habits er it it seems to me that proposals that we have represented and which create improvement in a number of areas or reduce the cut in a number of areas will actually produce a much more balanced programme for nineteen ninety four ninety five. +I would like to support obviously the motion that was a and it was moved . +Mr I know what is deficient. +Thank you Chairman you will only agree concentrate on this business over traffic calming. +Er my reservations about the figures the Liberal Democrats put in, I think they will however, I think it is erm, the idea, I do get the idea that money is being thrown at the problem. +The traffic calming measures, a lot of them take place in my constituency . +Some success, some are an absolute waste of . +We have to look into the effectiveness of the . +for example +what sort of things that have been done. +In one there which does serve pupils taking er the largest school in the county, there were fourteen accidents the year before road cuts were introduced, in the year since they have been introduced there have been none. +However, the we have recently had to incur extra expenditure because the road that were put in looking at one hundred er er were found to be too high especially for the services and er place er committee which er throughout that it was very difficult but apparatus you know moving fire . +These have now been reduced but they should be put in the first place. +There is another example when er er safety bars be put outside the school entrance er cast iron ones so obviously that would stop any entrance on to the pavement school. +Unfortunately the position makes them ideal for the kid to cut over and leap frog over, especially straight into the oncoming traffic and the er bearers . +There are also a number of traffic put into er slow down traffic, being seen in many cases to be used as a target practice for people coming out of the pub on Saturday night. +Er a number of and there's a further example which I have written to the County Senior Safety Officer about er where there is a halt pedestrians coming on to a main road where a number of vehicles er bounce the pavements to get round traffic turning right at the junction. +I was told there used to be a safety barrier there but it kept being knocked down so it wasn't of putting er safety barriers up there bollards . +No I think you need to look into how we are spending the money on traffic calming. +Don't put this amount in yet, take balance our budget which looks upon things like passenger transport. +A good way of traffic calming is to get more people to use public transport . +Erm let's no don't don't worry about the pot holes cut in structure licence budget. +A cyclist going over a pot hole is a very dangerous situation and this should be looked into. +So I would ask all to consider looking in depth at at at the traffic being taken. +Of course you want to see increased road safety, we're all concerned about it as residents and parents but just throw in one million pounds at it without knowing the effectiveness of it, I think is irresponsible at this stage. +The only other point I make is reply to Charles I have some sympathy to him Charles in trying to defend the er the indefensible. +probably got Tottenham Hotspur supporter, I think put . +. +Erm but I get situations quite because the dire situation . +I'm surprised you didn't trade unions to the dire situation. +Er you know Paul . +to be the single parents +single parents +yes. +. +no causes the +admitting things like losing fifty billion quid on fluttering on foreign exchanges er Mr did or flittering away the north sea oil revenue in tax cuts for higher earners rather than er keeping that er once in a life time er bonus that this country had for the north sea oil and also you could mention the increased pension for but it didn't match billions that have been wasted on defence expenditure especially defence expenditure and especially the trident programme. +These points should be should be looked into but as I say I take my hat off to infer at least having been loyalty to defend the inquest. +Next question er Mr . +have the pleasure Mr Chairman, I too would like to erm home in on the subject of traffic calming as identified by the previous speakers and er I start with viewpoint that the Liberal Democrat case has been put in which is +designed to attract a maximum profit without really thinking it through so in this way I do quite a strong Martin said in the previous two speeches. +To simply say to the public we are going to spend a million pound on traffic calming is downright irresponsible and this . +It is true that there is an increasingly which we see it erm as in this Council form petitions to the Council more members. +There is a rapidly growing department of increased traffic calming. +It often if not always involves children and schools and we've only to list the petitions that come in here to realise that. +I would like to say that we should be concentrating on traffic management schemes which included traffic calming and take this I'd like to give you a few examples. +I took the trouble in my own district to look into the subject because I could see the way the demand for less services. +The pressure is immense, from the County Council the current budget, I believe, is four hundred and twenty thousand for these +and all of the groups incidentally I suggest increased . +My group is suggesting they increase by five hundred thousand which is over a hundred per cent increase and I su I support this. +I would also like to draw to your attention the which is not related to accident prevention and therefore within the existing criteria does not qualify for County Council support,generally speaking. +There is erm, I think you will find the district is very strong in support and for assisting and financing the schemes. +They are a community in very strongly there is a risk through speaking. +I believe that support this and I've already seen in my own district to traffic calming which never previously existed. +A willingness members to use district plans to back up county plans and in some cases to actually fund county wants to approve them . +According to this the current demands for traffic calming alone in the council could have could amount to between five and ten million pounds. +I base that simply on what I know my own district County Council's current budget. +I suggest to you Mr Chairman that this subject has crept up on +in the last two or three years and er it is in danger of overwhelming us. +There is such strong +demands and I think we really have to address this. +I believe we should not only be looking at simple traffic calming, I believe we should be looking at er greater use of subsidised school transport and in fact transport called for a report and I gather going on right out. +We hope to receive that too. +I believe we should cooperate and I believe with integrated traffic management schemes, we can address this problem. +Therefore, I would see from a public point of view a substantial expenditure on this subject and I don't think necessarily a level cuts from county planners. +Thank you. +Mr no problem Mr +Yes Chairman I'd I'd . +. +I think that er we are probably some years of and therefore whilst we make indulge our service in the next few moments it each other er we are eventually and then perhaps going through a convenient route er and thrashing out some sort of profit margin. +However, erm I would like to just add a few comments er I I found it very interesting in that er I would like to chastise the liberal democrats for throwing money problems, you know er in Yorkshire, my grandfather came from Yorkshire they have a saying you know that labour so there there any other party . +Erm reference was made er, however, by Chris er and by Martin er +. +Chairman can I raise a point again, erm second time . +Chairman I have to but I moved conservative resolution and I am now the debate problem. +. +group to er the fire . +Can we absolutely be sure that the whole purpose of the fire fighters review panel looking at fire cover throughout the county of Hertfordshire to see how long the various traffic changes er and changes to er er road structure and various other . +county and see whether the family wish currently if it would not benefit from er er being carried er in certain areas and I do apologise for the Chief Fire Officer if throw away to Martin er in any way being thought of as no regrets I am sure. +What I was trying to say that the for the fire fighter decision about was very boo'd upon to the professional advice of our Chief Fire Officers and they have a good for eighteen months of how we are doing this fire fighting in Hertfordshire. +As things have changed round here, things are changing present time er which has so much, however, and there are other areas er just report will be reconsidered er and the right sort of er er area of cover er that we would wish to see and just cutting services, we're talking about improving resources from an area which is clear to areas where there is no further issue, or etc., etc., there is not adequate cover . +Er it's it was marked, I think, from the early discussion Chairman that er Watford, er would end up as a new fire station. +St Albans would end up fire station. +Er and between the Liberal er Liberal Democrats Labour if you support our proposal we'll support yours, will end up as a temporary fire station and . +That's what we got out of Chairman and is that nine hundred thousand pounds of by simply modifying er the fire do will have provided that substantial sum of money completely reorganise review of the fire service er it would have er brought this other ten fire, whole time fire fighters etc., etc., and these savings because of the of those two groups over there we have to identify it's stage, put them on the table and then be very prudent in the way this is really the . +Er er really to to precipitate on traffic calming really it's going over the authorities, over . +rights of erm fire so many people in front of me at the moment I . +Er I was told by my colleague. +Erm reply to er most, because that's the second time . +I think we all today . +Here, here, here. +I must bring your attention to Standing Order C A matter in hand. +Well the point Chairman is that Mr moves the Conservative he's now been allowed to er speak again. +Er I was aware that the so I am taking that summing up speech . +referring to Council treadmills and not the actual committee .. +what we just . +we just move this argument be here all day. +. +that he's a member of the er Committee bench, he should be allowed to . +Well I'm, I'm the Chairman carry on so to carry on . +I just called on announce what in this case so I know what Mr said first time round. +We with erm about savings his side is made in public transport. +Erm I great exception to that because the savings on his side may be public transport has been at the expense of the workers in public transport and the people who use public transport. +Here, here. +I am very much, very greatly concerned by the traditions in bus garages and to the facts that er workers are out of work being their position at work be very considerably worse off. +Also I am not happy about the state of maintenance on vehicles. +Er also feel that the people the companies are not making services actually got because they were against these making go out in the evenings because the last bus leaves the town centre at six thirty. +Erm you know they're not interested in services that actually meet with these of people,like people that want the buses and I really take great exception to on the on spending less money on public transport er not but also work place +. +. +take it Mr Chairman. +Firstly,I want to congratulate the . +They put in eighty thousand into their proposals that deal with the planning we have hole on my pouch, well done, but on the other hand you are not prepared to spend twenty five thousand on an important obstacle plan to stop this sort of mess er er arising. +Brian told us that he was going to deal with those matters he didn't, he didn't build, he left out planning enforcement twenty five thousand and with the countryside thirty thousand. +Surprise, surprise, relatively small sums of money which will help an overall problem particularly with minerals enforcement. +for minerals enforcement, we have a a habit of my patch and up until now the minerals companies have run rings round our officers because we haven't got sufficient staff in our department. +Mr Chairman, Martin forescored on Charles suggestions that we may be able to finance savings in the fire salary recovery review. +That fire cover review is not yet completed. +This Committee has rejected quite a large proportion of the officers proposed statements. +I'm very sorry about that because I believe that that money could be better spent within the fire service on other matters to provide a much better service to the general public. +Don't alter that, that's been rejected but still on the table Mart Martin failed to mention our certain issues. +I won't go into them today if I did possible savings. +I did confirm that with with Steve our Legal Officer but there is still a proposed saving on the table of two hundred and fifty thousand pounds. +Now is it not they'll ask you, reasonable to recycle some of those savings and surely regain the into the provision of those ten fire officers that the service so badly needs for a number of years now the Fire Inspector's report has identified the confidence levels as we in our service. +I believe that that the savings can be made within the Fire Service to do just that. +I wanted to go on just to say, to address one other subject and that's traffic calming, traffic calming is a very important aspect in our rural areas and indeed in our towns. +There is tremendous demand for both parish council, both tran county councils for traffic calming in their villages. +They want to see vehicles going slower through the towns, quite right, we put in half a million extra for this but I'm disappoint with Labour's negative attitude. +Only three hundred thousand. +Mr goes on to say what is wrong with what's been done so far. +Totally negative approach, of course if you start to do a programme which we haven't been involved in some mistakes will be made but we should be positive and look forward to see how we can avoid the mistake we've been making in the future. +Not be critical and unpleasant about everything that's been done in the way of traffic calming. +I think Mr Chairman that the r the budget that has been put to all by this side of the house should be supported and I sincerely hope that er we will get support from others in this Council Chamber. +Thank you Mr we will now go on to. +Thank you very much Mr Chairman. +I merely hope that I will not be a Charles talking about the fire cover again for today and er perhaps in future times for the simple reason that it is one thing to make a budget, it is one thing to do a . +It is one thing to draw money from the public in terms of council tax and it's another thing to spend it in the way you intend to do it. +And it's quite obvious Charles +. +win the election in May. +. +The form that came to the officers was a Conservative instruction that you were to produce a fire cover showing their fire cover idea and procedures saving money and that was the one which was thrown out. +We are going about it the proper way and er nevertheless it will be assessed and costed at the end. +Now in the same way over the four years when you are in overall control of the Council you suggested that Conservative money, the of council tax to pay for public transport but you never spent all the money on public transport, instead of which you on as you admitted which will be used in other directions but your last budget + +Hope that was recorded. +Erm, and this a rematch. +A rematch, I like that. +I do trust we take on this issue which is opening +Okay if we can move then to the agenda then, er, first of all can I wish all members and officers a happy new year and trust you had a, a festive season. +Thank you, Chairman, and you, +Yes, good health. +Erm, item one. +Apologies. +There are no apologies. +Any from the meeting? +Everybody's here. +Yes, okay. +Item two, minutes of the meeting held on the eleventh of October. +No, no, those in favour. +Yes, agreed with no dissentions, thank you. +We move then to item three, which is budgets ninety four, ninety five, and the capital programme marked B. +That's my . +Well thank you Chair. +Erm, I think although members aren't concerned about the proceedings being tape recorded, the officers may be, in terms of you being able to produce a recording at a later date of what we actually say, which may be at variance with the minutes. +Aha, hear, hear +If we can start into the budget then, I think members will be fully aware of the wider context that the County Council finds itself in, and we're not proposing to rehearse that at any great length for you other than if you wish us to er, run through that again. +Focusing in on social services, the points that I wanted to make to start er, to you were first of all the complexity of the community care situation, and you have a separate paper on that which Mr will be going through you, going through with you in detail. +It is important that that's understood, and the sorts of issues arising from it are also understood. +In essence we've been hit by something like a double whammy over the S S As. +First of all the local authority's S S A as you know, has not been as we would have wished it to be, and that gives us less headroom for er, manoeuvring as it were er, with the various committees, and secondly the community care money is now solely distributed through the S S A whereas last year fifty percent of it came relating to usage. +In other words the numbers of private beds that we have in the county and fifty percent was related to S S A for the elderly. +It's not solely through S S A, and therefore, in line with your general er, problems over S S A, is you're now beginning to see one appear er, potentially in social services. +Er, we believe that there is a shortfall, if I can put it that way, in quotes, of some seven hundred and fifty thousand in ninety four, ninety five, over what we would otherwise have expected to get if the previous method of distribution er, had been stuck with. +So we er, we'll be highlighting that for you later, and er, we'll be discussing the issues. +My main concern is that in fact, it may in itself produce the, er, a diverse incentive. +Remember we're supposed to be moving from residential and institutional care to greater use of community and domiciliary care. +My concern is that you may, in b fact find yourself in a situation where you're cementing yourself in to residential and institutional care at the expense of domiciliary care, and we'll explain that later to you, er, as we go in. +The second point of concern is about children's services. +We've still got the Children Act coming through, I know that may appear a bit odd, but that Act was in fact in nineteen eighty nine, but it's come through in a sense on an incremental basis, and it's accepted by the Department of Health and er, the S S I, that indeed, and the Audit Commission, that there are elements in the present settlement for the Children Act. +We have got to face up to the Warner Report as well, which is to do with staffing in community homes, and again, that's an issue which we can pick up later, as we go into detailed reports. +And finally, as you will know, there is a new Criminal Justice Act which will be coming through, there are new steps that are going to be taken about juvenile offenders. +My view is, and it's been all along, that that will put pressure on your budget rather than decrease it, because it will tend to emphasise high cost residential er, solution. +The final thing I want to say to you about children's services is, we have to, we have, having great trouble breaking into prevention. +We are focusing most of our efforts er, on dealing with the legalistic situations in a sense, the situations in the courts, the situations of child protection, and we're having great difficulty breaking into prevention. +Until we do, I would suggest, and it's not just about until we do, then, I don't think we're going to make really serious dint with the number of children that we now have in care. +Hear, hear. +When we talk about our reductions, we will get to a point where the reductions that are being proposed to you, actually conflict with a number of policy directions that you are wanting to go in, and we'll flag those up to you. +If I could give you just two very quick examples of what I mean, there is a proposal to reduce boarding out payments. +Now, in effect, that's moving directly against the direction that we want to go in, we want to make greater use of domiciliary er, initiatives for young people, you have another paper on your agenda about teen care, which is showing what can be achieved with the most difficult youngsters. +The second one, I just wanted to draw your attention to, was, it had to do with the home help service. +Possibly we're looking to reduce home help hours, but this is at a time when, at the same time I'm saying to you, we're having problems with our S T G, our special grant for care in the community. +We're trying to maintain people in the, their own, their own homes. +We know that's largely what they want, but we're having possibly to move away from that. +So I think these are issues that you're going to have to consider very firmly. +And the final thing before, from me, before Mr starts for you, I wanted to welcome the fact that for the first year, there is a recognition of demographic growth change for social services, and I think that is most important. +Up till now you always had to bid er, for issues arising from changes of growth in the population, and that particularly begins to pick up the issue about the aging population in the county, so if I can welcome that. +If I can also finally say to you that if what you are, what, what you are reading in front of you, if these yellow pin pricks, whatever sheets on the budget go through this morning, as they are, you will only then be still spending at S S A level, you are not spending above it. +So I think that that's an important point, because I do believe that weight is placed by the government on S S A. +I do believe that if you spend under it, you will be told that you had the money er, for the services and so there's no use coming back and er, and making representations. +And finally, I think that there is a recognition er, from P and R about the community care issue, but it will be important that we obviously debate that in these papers and discuss it this morning. +Now, may I stop there then, and if Mr can come in with the detail. +Thank you. +Could I just start with the white paper on community care funding because I think, as he said in the introduction, it is a complex subject, erm, and it does involve a lengthy transition period, and therefore in terms of its understanding, I think it's important that members are aware both how the money is coming to us, broadly what we're doing with it, and, and how it is that we've reached the conclusion that there's a great under-funding in the, in the present proposals. +Erm, it's important to remember that this is, in financial terms, a four year transition period, and you haven't yet completed the first twelve months. +So there is a shortage of hard information in some areas, er, it is a changing situation, and it is one where the Committee is under very clear instruction to extend the alternative care options that it gives to clients, and therefore that again is a complexity in terms of your ability to ensure you've got adequate funding and are directing it in the right areas in, in order to meet, not only the needs of people out there, but the changing needs and what is, Mike has already referred to as being the preferred solutions erm, many of which have not been available to people in the past. +Erm, the other important point I think, if by way of introduction, is in paragraph two, and that is, just to make it quite clear that this is a transfer of funding where people previously went to the Department of Social Security and claimed Income Support in order to assist them in accessing services that were provided by the voluntary and private sector. +It's not therefore new money that's coming to us, it's, it's money that's already in the system, it's being used by an existing client route, and it's being used to buy a chair that is already there. +So there's no element in this in terms of a developing additional service, it's simply channelling the funding of that service to the local authority, where previously it went to the D S S. +Erm, paragraph four, I er, refers to the fact that this is very much a joint process. +This is something where the local authority is the lead agency, but it does involve, increasingly involve very close joint working with other agencies, particularly in the health authority, and there were various conditions attaching the funds, which have a number of, of purposes, but one of the key ones in terms of where you must spend your money, or a proportion of it, was very much aimed at not destabilizing the existing sector. +There is a wish to see a move from residential care to home care and, and home help and community based care, but to see that it's done in an orderly fashion which doesn't destabilize the market that's out there, and doesn't put at risk the care of elderly people who are already using those existing homes. +Erm, the financial elements I find complex, I'm sure from discussions with various members, they equally find it complex, but the position is, that in the current year, you have been given access to a specific grant. +That grant is ring fenced, it can only be spent on community care defined elements, it includes the recognition that as well as buying care for people, you are for the first time, er, assessing people's needs. +In the past, if somebody went to the Department of Social Security, they simply had to show that they didn't have the income to fund their place, and they then received Income Support. +Nobody actually looked at them and said do you need the care that you're getting, or the care that you're accessing? +So the new element of the system is very much that we, the local authority, the social services department, do now have to assess people's needs before we offer them any sort of care package to address those needs. +So, I'm sure members of this Committee have heard this on several occasions as we've introduced the system, but we have had to put in a fairly complex and detailed system of assessing people's needs, producing care packages to meet those needs, offering choice to those people, and responding to that choice, then doing what the D S S used to do, I E, a financial assessment of their ability to meet the costs of that care, and settling our contribution, and we're involved therefore in contracting with the independent sector for purchase of that care, and with the collection of contributions from those individuals, with increasing numbers and increasing complexity. +Er, the figures in paragraph five are shown there, but we had a recognition of that additional duty, and a variety of other minor changes which I won't go into this morning, that came through at the same time. +Later in the paper I'll be explaining that, whilst there was also a recognition that there was a gradual build-up in the care requirements, there doesn't seem to have been the same explicit recognition that there's been a gradual build-up in the assessment and care management which has an increased ongoing cost in future years. +Future commitments are referred to in paragraph six, and this is an, an important factor. +When we take somebody, assess their needs and offer them a care package, in terms of the elderly, erm, and more importantly in terms of those with physical disability or learning disability, we have basically got to support that person for the rest of their life, and therefore, the commitment is not just for the current year, the commitment in, in the case of the elderly depending on what is being offered, whether it be nursing home care, or residential care is for several months or years. +In terms of people with learning disability and physical disability we're talking about ten, twenty, thirty, forty years in, in many cases. +So there is a long-term commitment in those cases. +Mike 's referred to the change in grant distribution erm, the position on that is, is it's got a slide which may or not help people in terms of their somebody's standing on it I just love new technology, it's great +The screen, the screen's twisted. +Yes +I, I don't know whether people can see +It's the screen, it's the screen is twisted +Yes, I don't think there's very much we can do about that . +Basically, can people see it, because I don't need to use it to any great extent, +Lift that you got let +just emphasising the point that +can you give George ? +No, not that, that's right, that's it +probably be a little higher, if that helps. +The situation is that in the current year, we're saying we have a distribution of a specific grant which is ring fenced, roughly half of it came to us using er, S S A factors, standard standing assessment factors, and roughly, something of the order of half of it, came to us on the basis of one or two snapshots of what the D S S was spending in Shropshire in terms of supporting people in residential care. +It was always the intention that there would be a gradual move from that distribution to one based entirely on S S A, but that's the current year position, where you're getting a specific grant, and it is distributed on those, broadly those two factors. +For next year, that grant all moves across and comes to us, distributed through the normal S S A for social services and becomes part of the County Council's revenue support grant. +In doing that, instead of being distributed on those two factors, it's all distributed using S S A. +Now as a result of that, we always recognize there will be a loss to Shropshire County Council, because we've benefited from the previous distribution, and as far as we can see in real terms we've lost about a hundred and thirty thousand as a result of that move of a specific grant into distribution through your revenue support grant. +For next year, we're also getting a further specific grant, which we're showing up here, but instead of continuing the distribution that we've got in the current year, the government have decided that that should be entirely distributed on S S A factors, and again that's been to the detriment of Sh Shropshire. +I'm not saying that there wasn't an expectation that there would be a gradual move in there, and ultimately we would suffer and we would lose that level of grant. +The difficulty I think that we're facing, is that it's happening in year two of a four year transition period, before we've really got to grips with what the long-term position is, what the overall demands are, and to what degree we are going to be able to model, change, control and, and influence those demands. +Erm, so it is, how shall I put it, erm, unfortunate I think, in, in Shropshire's view, that they didn't continue along the distribution on the previous basis. +Those two put together, I think we lost about three hundred thousand pounds as a result of the change in distribution. +For the following year, the same thing will happen. +The bid that to you as a specific grant next year will then itself be absorbed into the base for the following year, and there will be a new specific grant. +But we've also been told this year, that there will be year four, beyond this slide, where the same thing could happen again. +But ultimately, at that stage, the expectation is that they will say, well the bulk of the D S S monies have now been transferred to local authorities, and can safely be distributed through the normal standard spending assessment distribution, and the revenue support grant for local authorities, so at that stage you will cease to have any specific grant and one assumes that the conditions about where you spend it and how you spend it will also have been removed. +But I'll touch on the reason why they don't need those condition in a few minutes. +Just referring back to the paper then, we talk in paragraph eight of a grant shortfall. +This is not directly related to the three hundred thousand that we've referred to, but obviously in part too. +What has happened in the current year is we've started from no involvement with this particular group of clients, and building up where by the end of the year, our best estimate we're approaching six hundred clients so then we have a commitment of providing either residential care or some care package which keeps them out of residential care. +Erm, I would have to say that's going to be in the range of five hundred to six hundred, and very much depends to some extent on what happens in the winter months, and I'm sorry to keep stressing this point, but we haven't yet got twelve months' experience of operating this particular change, and until we've got at least a year's experience, and I think one would have to say, that some of the figures need to be portioned, but equally, you can't afford to be too cavalier in terms of your assumptions about that demand might reduce to, and I'll touch a little later on how you control expenditure in those terms. +We've therefore looked at experience to date, the best figures available from other agencies, we have close contact with the independent sectors in terms of their expectations of, of numbers, erm, and we have our own staff in the field, who have given us their best estimates of demand for the coming year. +We've put those together, we've looked at the staff that we need to administer that particular level of activity, and we've come out with a figure that we think is a reasonable estimate, in fact I would go so far as saying, we think this is the lowest estimate that we can safely put forward, as to our needs for the coming year. +They are some seven hundred and fifty thousand pounds less than is explicitly coming to us, either through the grant that's coming into the S S A, the base, or the new specific grant. +And if you turn over onto page four,and at last pick up both the graph and the figures that are shown there and if it helps members, I can also put up the figures on the I suspect not, I think there's, it becomes a little small for people. +They, they're only replicating the figures within the papers anyway. +The position is, looking at appendix one, and if you take the first triangle, which has got nineteen ninety three, ninety four below it, that's showing that we started off with no clients, and then by the end of the year we expect to have a number of people in our care, receiving services, to which we have a degree of commitment. +Erm, we have managed that level of activity with assessments, er, care management staff, financial assessment staff, income staff, contracting staff, staff who are dealing with complaints, erm, and, and monitoring er, er, at a cost of four hundred and fifty thousand pounds estimated in the current year. +There is no explicit provision in the specific grant for an increase in that. +Now we've chosen to spend that amount of money, we didn't have all the staff in place on the first of April, we have recruited them during the year, as demand has risen. +We therefore, by the end of the year, will have staff in place where the full year commitment to paying for those staff is in fact some six hundred and eighty six thousand pounds. +Erm, and that's shown in the chart in appendix two below the diagram. +We will be dealing with all of those existing clients in terms of reassessing both their care needs and their financial ability to contribute to whatever package of care they're getting, as well as taking on board all the new ones who present themselves for the first time in nineteen ninety four, five. +So what I've tried to show diagrammatically is that, we start ninety four, ninety five with plans in place, shown by the vertical dotted line on the graph, a number of those will die or leave the system for other reasons during the year, and we've taken a fairly optimistic view I would say, erm, optimistic in the financial sense, that a significant number of those will leave the system during the year. +Now, by some manoeuvring on this, you can often get the income to sort of fit both sides if you like, you know by putting income to each side, you can avoid losing your age allowance. +Now once you get to fourteen thousand two hundred, your age allowance is abated, +one pound for every two over the limit, and you're abated back to this level of allowance. +Er, but it's worth er you know manoeuvring a little bit on that if you can. +Erm if I could just stop there for a couple of minutes to er make a point about er independent taxation. +Erm if we've got erm er a couple say age sixty, and they've got their personal allowances er as, as usual, er let's assume that the male's retired and he's getting an income of five thousand two hundred, let's just suppose. +So we know that his er his five one six five allowance is fully used, in other words his, his tax allowance is fully used. +Er in fact erm it could be perhaps plus some investment income as well, let's say that his wife though, er she, he's go he's got the erm five one six five allowance, so he's going to pay tax on whatever else he earns in other words. +If say the female has got an income of only er two thousand a year, she's got er an unused allowance of fourteen forty five, in other words, erm that er three four four five allowance isn't being used now, I mean if we put ten thousand into his name, erm we would er suffer tax at erm say twenty five percent on most of it. +Er so er let's say that the ten percent rate applies, er mind you ten percent is a long way from where we are now, but it makes the figures easy to look at, so er let's say that he's getting ten percent gross on his return on a building society, he'd actually get seven and a half percent net, er so on his ten thousand he's going to earn seven fifty. +Okay? +So that's his ten thousand investment income, well that's fine, you know, no problem, and there is a marginal rate here which you could in fact reclaim a bit of tax on twenty percent. +But what happens if he gives it to his wife? +Well er firstly, he can, even if it's his money give it to his wife as his partner, and she could then invest the money, and because she's not paying any tax, er she could get a ten percent return, so she could actually get a thousand pounds on that ten thousand and that would be payable gross. +So immediately they've made two hundred and fifty pounds a year er bonus by having the wife's er name on the account. +Now, the way that er gross accounts work is erm er fairly straightforward. +You've got a form R eighty five which is available for bank and building society investors, and if you've got er a gross account then er you, you have to agree with the revenue that you are not going to be a taxpayer in the year that you take out the er R eighty five. +It's no good if you think you might drop into tax later, +avoid doing it because the revenue are checking one in twenty cases, and if you've got a partner who's likely to pay, not to pay tax, that's fine, if they are likely to roll over into tax, then don't use an R eighty five. +The simple way there as you've probably been told by your tax officer here is just to reclaim it at the end of the tax year. +You know if you've got any un a balance that you can reclaim, then do it then. +Er there are other ways of getting gross income, obviously. +And er one of the ways you can use is er National Savings Income Bonds, er which are er okay, but they're, the trouble is they're at a variable rate, so at the moment they're paying seven percent, so that's on National Savings Income Bonds, so that that person would get seven hundred a year at the moment gross, and of course er you don't need to t to fill in an R eighty five for that type of investment because it's not a bank or building society account. +Erm the problem is that people who were in this account two years ago were earning thirteen and a half percent, well say eighteen months ago. +And of course with the reduction in the erm er interest rates, then those have come down quite steeply. +So it's a bit frightening when you think a pensioner's money may have been in that account at thirteen fifty on a, on ten thousand invested, and now they're down to seven hundred. +If that was paying some important bills they'd be struggling. +And er I can remember several cases years ag you know so going back two or three years where people were debating with me why didn't I put more into National Savings? +Cos I was using that issue at that time, but we always make the proviso that if things change, you may have to alter your mind about where your money's placed. +Because obviously it's linked to U K interest rates, and therefore you suffer whatever goes on there. +It's not all negative, of course, I mean the fact is we've got low underlying inflation at the moment, and that means that i a seven percent return and if the inflation rate's less than three, you're actually, it's, it's really reasonably profitable. +But of course profit's one thing, and income's another thing, and I think the problem with most er forms of income type investment is that we spend it, it's not a problem it's just, it just happens. +But when you spend it when you're spending your income you're not accumulating your capital, so this person in five years time, although they've had their income which may vary between seven and thirteen percent, their ten thousand is still ten thousand pounds, and obviously that would have devalued in real terms against inflation, which is the other problem. +So the point I'm trying to make is that you can't rely on one product to do the whole job. +Th f for a tax plan, that's what I'm on at the moment, and, and, and that's a useful er device. +Erm so think about if you've got a non-working partner or somebody on a low income to spread the money er so that you, has anybody already done this er you know prior to retirement? +Yes, er perhaps one or two. +Yes. +I mean I er i it's more well known than it used to be. +But where it isn't well known is the people who ought to know, and that's the pensioners, you know th perhaps er your er parents, people er older than yourselves who are drawing state pension, and er the advertising seems to have gone astray. +Cos there's millions and millions of pounds that the revenue have got rushing about which should have been repaid to er investors. +Er and of course it's people like erm my mother and father who never look at er things like that unless I actually point it out, they won't actually know that they're allowed to reclaim tax. +You know, particularly, you know the female may have only a state pension you know the part state pension nothing else coming in, and a lot of these accounts are still net, not gross, so the revenue have got money to give away, and they're quite happy to do that providi providing that people tap them on the shoulder. +So if you've got any elderly er relatives or people who want, or who you think may, the trouble is with relatives, they always think you're interfering, this is a snag. +You ask about money and wonder why. +Erm but erm that's a, a very important point and er just remember that you have actually given the money to the other partner, technically in terms of tax anyway, and er that er can, can have an affect on things. +Because I gave my wife some money obviously because I pay tax, she doesn't she's at home with the children, she didn't seem to object funnily enough, you know I said I'll move this money over to you. +And then +you know you can invest this and we'll have a building society account we'll have a gross account. +Yeah fine, fine. +So anyway er I mean being a keen motorcyclist I borrowed a Moto Guzzi last year, you know a big V twin, beautiful bike, I went up into Derbyshire and had a you know ride on it, and thought well that's not bad, see I've always had British bikes, and I think I might g I might get one of those, so I came back in the house put the helmet down and said hey that Guzzi's not bad, I could get a decent one for about two thousand you know about nineteen eighty, you know nice Le Mans Two. +And she said oh yeah, where are you getting the money from? +I said well, you know, out of the, out of the Bradford and Bingley. +She says that's my account. +I said but yeah I know, I gave you the money for tax purposes. +She says well, she says, that garage is in a hell of a mess you know, and that Norton standing there doing nothing. +So erm have a problem trying to get it back. +That's right, yeah so I eventually managed it, but it took some negotiating. +Do you have to give the capital sum to create this income, or is there ways of income from a set sum of money to the other person? +No. +No, er not really. +The revenue want it paid into an account in your name or a joint account. +They +Yes, but can that just be the income, or has it to be the whole capital? +Er, no the whole, the whole capital should be held by you, and paid to you or your or i in, in a case of a joint er couple because er once it's paid out, it would become the tax it would become the t the taxable interest of whoever received it. +So really erm er you'd have to be a bit careful if you were doing that, and er I think the revenue would be pretty iffy about you holding money and paying it to a third party. +Were you thinking about a child who could own er +No, I just I just question. +You know I the splitting of income +Mhm. +between spouse, two spouses erm +It doesn't matter +to transfer the lump sum so that that income goes to the one with the . +No no, not really, not, not between not between a married couple no. +No. +But I mean obviously er the er +Or can you just put the income across? +Yes. +So you know four thousand . +You can. +You can, but I'd still advise it goes to a joint account rather than to er another person's account. +Because I think the er the you know the revenue would think it was a bit odd that somebody else owned the money, and you paid the income to another party. +Right, that's what I'm asking. +How do, what's the method with it. +Do you have a joint account for the, for the +Yes. +lump sum, interest accum accumulated goes to the joint account +Right. +and is then split between the two? +Yes well er if it's a joint account and the income's i i if it's a joint account and the income's generated from that account, then er it will be er treated as one going to the taxpayer, er you know, half of it going to the taxpayer, half of it going to the non-taxpayer. +If it's the non-taxpayer owns the account in that case, then she can pay the whole of that thousand pounds into a joint account for them both, and they can both use the income, the revenue aren't going to b bother about where the money's gone, providing that it's received by the person who owns the investment. +I think that that's the key to it. +Mhm. +That so somewhere in i in between you've got to be receiving the income that you generate. +Otherwise passing it on to a third party, but you're not in the case of a married couple. +Obviously the point is that y y it's still within the, the er bounds of the er couple itself. +If that's . +But if you set it up jointly, you can't direct all the gross income if that's what you're thinking you can't say well I'll have all that income gross cos my wife's got an unused allowance, you've got to split it down the middle in the case of a joint account. +So generally to make it, to make it straightforward, I tend to er differentiate, so that I've got some in the ta the non-taxpayer's name up to the limit, and then a joint account perhaps which will be usable by both of them er for instant access, that type of thing. +Er I'll, I'll perhaps go back to that later, cos it does come into the way that money splits. +When you say joint account, do you mean building society? +Yes. +Er, a building society or bank account, yes. +Joint account. +Well er, a building society, I don't know whether people realize, but there are limits to the amount of protection you get on large sums of money. +Yes. +Yes. +I will actually l er go into that. +I'll, I'll cover it now. +Thank you for mentioning it. +say, if you've got thirty thousand in, you'll only get protection on +Twenty. +It's the first twenty. +yes, under the Building Society Protection Act, if the society fails, you're protected up to twenty thousand, and you'll get eighteen thousand back, there's a ninety percent protection, provided they're members of the Building Society Association, which all are, er virtually, even down to things like the Clay Cross and the Staffordshire Railway, they're all members of the Building Society Association, so they're all covered. +Er but if you have a joint account, you're actually covered erm to forty thousand, because i it would be seen as two separate accounts, so that each hold twenty. +Er, so that's okay to an extent, but obviously we've got an approved list of building societies and banks, which we never used to have, but we've realized that er since B C C I p particularly and the housing market as bad as it is, there are some building societies and banks who may be in difficulties, and if they go down erm then they may not be taken over. +Because y don't forget that in the past, building societies have always been taken over by you know, sort of friendly merger. +But the Halifax said last year that they wouldn't take on any wounded soldiers, so that if er a society went to the wall and its debts were bad, then nobody may step in to s to actually erm erm solve the problem if you like. +Er so don't, don't do, quite correct to say beware of putting too much er of your money in one area, and er even with building societies it's risky. +But er if you stick to the sort of er top ten, you know the sort of Alliance and Leicester, the Leeds Permanent, the Halifax, the erm the sort of Nationwides, then you're unlikely to get into difficulties. +I think where people are more at risk is where they've gone for TESSAs in th er you know that's the tax-exempt savings plan, and they've chased the rate through the papers you know the erm and they see that the s the Wolverhampton Building Society or the Tipton and +Cheltenham and Gloucester, is offering higher rates. +Yes, but C and G are actually very good er very sound er on their er ratios, they're pretty good, but erm some of them aren't so good, and you know, be careful when you're coming to invest in building societies I'd stick to the major players at the moment, even though you may get a premium by going to a smaller society. +Because the smaller societies often f charge more for their loans and give more erm to the erm to the investor. +But of course erm you know the erm the smaller the society, the more risk there is in terms of solvency. +Generally speaking. +So erm it is worth mentioning. +Erm and banks incidentally, your protection is seventy five percent of the first twenty thousand, er which is where that B C C I figure came from, do you remember all that thing about fifteen thousand is your return? +Well, you'd have got fifteen thousand whether you'd got twenty thousand in there or two hundred thousand. +That was the basically the problem and people weren't aware of that at the time. +Er, so again it's a matter of security, and so if you've got lots of money in one area, better to move it about. +Building societies are a bit naughty in that they're regularly advertising rates at over fifty thousand pounds, the Loughborough do it for one, in er my local paper. +And I pick it up and it says Loughborough Building Society and you can see about half a percent er premium rate on fifty thousand pounds, and you think that might be worth going for, for, for somebody who's got a lot of capital, but is it really, because if you've got fifty thousand in there, you are at risk. +And I can just remember what John Major said about the local authorities who'd er got into B C C I. +He said the extra half percent was actually er a risk return, of course you know it wasn't explained perhaps as well. +You know, local authorities aren't expert in looking at company law, and the way that finances work. +So I think people got caught out quite badly at that, at that point. +Erm, I think we all got to trust building societies and banks, and we still can, providing you know the limits and er and er the constraints upon er upon those financial institutions. +I mean I can't see the government allowing a building society to actually get into erm er a case of insolvency, I think it, the, the, I think the Building Society Association would force a merger, but it may be on very poor terms or er you know, whatever. +But hopefully er we're past the bottom of that loop. +J Just one last thing. +Th I, I thought I had it clear, and now I'm slightly confused as a result of an answer that you gave, and I'm not quite clear again. +If I invest part of my lump sum in my wife's name +Yes. +er so we can take, take up her full allowance +Yes. +sh she will +Yes. +be able in fact to take all that. +And suppose okay well let's imagine just for a minute that she gets three four four five as, as interest +Yes. +take . +Now, the, the interest, that three four four five +Mhm. +the account into which it's paid, does that account into which the three four four five interest is paid, does that have to be in my wife's name, or does it have to be a joint +No, it can be in joint names. +But, but sh that is still allowed then is it? +If it's i I mean +Yes. +I thought you see it would have to be in her name, because she has +No, not necessarily. +to be in receipt of that income as far as +Yes, but then when that income's paid in, half of the income's taxable when it's assessed for you, and half would be paid gross to your wife, you know it's a diff it's a different, it's a different er +Yes, this is where I'm confused,if you want to take up +Can I just a minute, because I've got the same feeling. +And I think what Bob is saying, there is only one account, but you'll have to endow two accounts, one that is giving rise to interest in the wife's name, +Yes. +which is taxable +Yes. +on her if she's liable +Yes. +but the interest is then paid into another account which is in joint names. +Yeah. +Yeah,tha that's if you want to use the income of course. +It doesn't have to be. +Right. +It can be reinve it can be reinvested in the same . +Yeah, I understand that bit. +Yes. +It was the question of making sure that we didn't pay tax on any of that three four four five. +Well, +I thought that if it went into a joint account, I had to pay tax on half of three four four five. +You would, you would, you would. +But, but if we've used up her allowances er i you know it i if you want to keep it separate, if it's simpler separate that's okay +Right. +If you're near the limit, then it's probably worth it, +Right. +you know to keep it separate. +Right. +I mean, some people want it for income, so if they want that sort of fifteen hundred pounds coming in, and they both want access to it, I'm quite happy to pay it into a joint account, providing it doesn't actually give them a tax problem, in +Right. +other words, if half the interest is er is erm deemed to be the male's and therefore taxable, if it's a working account, it's never likely to get much interest on it anyway, +No. +cos the money will come in and go out. +Yeah. +Is, is that better? +Yeah. +Yeah. +Yeah. +Tha that's after it's met the tax liability or not? +That's right. +When it goes into the joint account. +Yes. +Yes. +It originally arose through the wife's account, and was covered by her allowances, and then the interest was then paid into a joint account +Yeah. +And then only half of that was the wife's +Yeah. +By that time she'd absorbed all her allowances, therefore it didn't matter whether she'd +That's right. +That's right. +I mean you've got to be careful at the end of the tax year that you're actually okay on that ground, er but, and you can make a declaration to the revenue if you're over the limit, it's just that I mentioned that because some people like a joint account for it to be received into so that they can both spend it basically. +Cos I mean I'm, I quite often use that as spendable income, because if I allow it to accumulate in a gross account, in a year or two it's actually gone beyond the +Right. +the personal allowance. +Yeah, right. +And that can make you a problem. +You've just got to keep an eye on that. +Er right so er capital gains tax. +Now, this is a tax which hopefully won't affect that many of you here, but it is, it is agai a tax nevertheless. +And er its er main exemptions are er on er owner occupied homes, private cars, life assurance policies,, gilts etcetera. +But erm most of the things that you will be de now the thing is about properties, that if you've got a second property for example, or erm you know that's not your primary residence, you would be liable to capital gain on a disposal, so if you'd bought the house for ten thousand and you sold it five years later for twenty, then the gain er on that would be the twenty er the ten thousand that you'd gained, less any indexation from nineteen eighty two, and they would then er er look at that as an allowance to use against it. +So your first five thousand eight hundred would be used against it, and then any e excess over that would be added to your tax bill in that year, in other words it would be assessed as income in that year. +Don't forget that you've got an allowance each, and it's not likely to affect many people, except where you've perhaps been left something that you want to dispose of or a property that you want to dispose of, in which case there could be a capital gains liability. +But don't remem don't forget that you've each got an allowance of five thousand eight hundred, so something jointly owned, you've actually got a double allowance, and you get that allowance year, so if you've got say an er a liability for shares of ten thousand pounds, let's say, that's your capital gains calculated liability, you can do five thousand in the first year, and five thousand in the second year, and that will keep you below your capital gains tax allowance. +Yes? +Erm, you mentioned property? +Erm your parents'. +Yes. +Is it therefore better for er a, a parent our parents , our parents to give as a gift the house to both people in order to claim both allowances? +Yes. +And there is a little wrinkle there as well, and th if, if they, if your parents are allowed to live there rent free, even though you own the house, you won't be liable to capital gains on disposal, er if they, if they actually pass the ownership of the house to you while they're alive, and then you continue to let them live rent free, as I understand it, you w there would be no capital gains liability on disposal. +Is, does that seven years? +No, no. +That's inheritance tax, that's a different er a different er matter really. +Er this is capital gains which is a different type of tax. +So it's just one of those things that you should know. +I mean, capital gains is liable to er a yearly review, you know, you've an allowance for each year, and the capital gain is on the property on the value of the property from the time it was purchased to the time it was disposed. +Er, whereas erm inheritance tax is an allowance which is given once and I'll explain what that is. +But as far as that's concerned, er I mean the, the house can be passed over to you, and would then become, er you would own the house but er unless you dispose of it, there'd be no liability to a gain, and er of course, at that time er if your parents in it rent free at the time of their er leaving the house, then you could then dispose of that without erm erm er liability. +Would that assume your parents are actually living when they gift it to you? +Yes. +And it becomes inheritance tax then if they die and leave it to you in their will? +Right. +Right. +Yes. +Er th but don't forget that, that if they make the transfer, if they give the house to you, is that what you mean, yes? +There would be a seven year rule on that. +Yes. +Yes, sorry, yes, that would be a potentially exempt transfer. +Yes. +Erm so that's true, that if they give you the house, it is, it is an inheritance tax problem as well. +Er so looking at inheritance tax, er the house the estate the car, capital etcetera all count towards it. +Having a will will help. +And with the current allowance of one hundred and fifty thousand pounds er is reasonably good, in that if you have a property worth say seventy or eighty thousand and then you've got assets of worth perhaps forty to fifty thousand, you'll still be under the limit. +Now, it's not your problem. +Inheritance tax is not your problem, it's your children's problem. +So er I mean you can actually say to your children, well okay you know if I, we die tomorrow in a road accident, there'd be a liability to tax, erm and say the estate's worth two hundred thousand, then fifty thousand would be liable to tax at forty pence in the pound, so there'd be twenty thousand pound debt to pay to the revenue. +Now that twenty thousand pounds can be paid er it has to be paid before probate is granted. +So there'd be delay in probate unless the children have got the money, so they have to borrow against the property or they have to raise money to pay the bill. +So erm you can actually get round that by erm either reducing the estate, which is the simplest way of doing it, so one thing you can do is spend your money, which isn't a problem is it? +If you hundred and fifty thousand. +And er fo for that reason, er you know, Lady got through three fortunes, and I think she di died with a few hundred pounds in the building society, and if you get the timing right, that's the way to do it. +Because er I mean a lot of children these days, I think about my parents, it's their money, they spend it, and I don't really see that it's important for it to be passed on to us, but in the case of a large estate, it becomes more important, if you're looking at sort of two hundred three hundred thousand estate, then there's going to be a lot of erm er asset value which would be taxable. +Er now you can make er you can make disposals in your lifetime obviously, you can make small gifts, you can make disposals up to three thousand pounds a year, which is your annual, your exemption if you like, and then anything over that is liable to the seven year rule, if you die within seven years of making the transfer, then there is a, there is a erm declining debt, er tax-wise. +But erm don't forget that all these things are erm a little bit dodgy at your ages, I don't think you should be making big transfers at this stage, simply because you may need the money. +If we go back to that first, second slide, if you're still alive in thirty years time, you may actually want the money that you've gifted to people ten years ago, and erm that's the problem you've got. +So I don't think I should be saying, if I was working as an advisor on your behalf, I don't think you should be making big transfers at this stage, because it's always dodgy. +I mean you may need to recall that capital later. +If you needed a non-urgent operation say a hip replacement or something, and you didn't want to go into your own savings er you know then you've obviously given away part of your assets. +There are other ways round it, as you can imagine. +And there's a lo there's a whole industry built up about inheritance tax planning where you actually write something in trust for your dependents, and er that's simple in that if you're in good health now, you can write say a twenty thousand pounds inheritance tax cover, under trust for your children so that's paid outside the estate, it doesn't make the matters worse, and mo most conveniently at retirement it's simple to do because you might pay it on an annual premium or a regular monthly premium, and it might cost you twenty or thirty pounds a month, but at least you can forget it then. +You've made some provision for your children it's written in absolute trust for their benefit. +On your death, the money is paid directly to the children, they can then pay the inhe inheritance tax bill, and everything's hunky-dory. +Er but of course you've got to fund that yourself, or at least that's what most people think. +Er but in our London office, apparently they do a lot of inheritance tax planning because of the size of estates, and they actually invite the children in, and say to the children look, you know, if erm you die, the estate will be devalued by forty thousand because of tax, er if you want to make provision the, the er the contract is still written on the erm, the erm individuals' lives, but it can then be erm paid by the children, so your children can then pay the premiums. +The only technical difficulty is that it's difficult in a family where there's two children perhaps one's well off and can pay, and the other can't, so you you've got technical problems there. +But there that, that's one of the routes they can use. +Another one that you might consider is joint tenancy in common. +Has anybody looked at that? +Er joint tenancy in common, this is where +Somebody did mention it John. +Oh did he? +Oh right. +But don't forget there are, there are er technical erm difficulties with that as well in some circumstances, and joint tenancy in common er you've got to look carefully at before you make any decisions. +That's giving away half the estate er half the house value on the first er death. +So you just be a bit careful on that one. +Erm right, so passing on then, er are you a cautious or adventurous investor? +What is your tax rate? +Erm, do you want income or capital growth or both? +Well for most people erm I mean they say to me, I don't want to be the richest man at Millford Hill, in other words I don't want to save in retirement indefinitely, but you are intending some capital growth as well, cos if you don't have capital growth, you don't protect your investment. +Are you cautious or adventurous? +I can usually tell by when I when I'm doing a fact-find reply obviously you find out whether their erm position is, is erm simply building society or national savings investment, or whether they've gone into shares or unit trusts or investment trusts, and you can see at what level they're operating and of course if they've still got their money under the bed, then +I refer them to Ken Dodd in Knotty Ash who's got a specialist company on that behalf. +So +erm so cautious or adventurous, I think most people don't, I mean I've got adventurous on my form but it never gets ticked, because nobody's adventurous when they retire. +I mean the time for you being adventurous was earlier, and I mean when you retire you've got to think about capital er protection as well. +Er it's okay to say, yes three or four thousand I'll play about with and I think Japan'll be good for the next five years, that's a different matter, but if you're dependent on something for income and security, then you can't really take a risk profile on, on, on your money. +Course erm I guess we deal a lot with British Telecom, and er and erm er Plessey and people like that, er well, G E C now. +They erm they tend to perhaps have a different attitude if they've been given company shares, because they're handled shares er fairly regularly, and that's a different matter, erm I mean erm are there many people here who have privatized issues? +Ha has anybody got as far as British Telecom shares, or British Gas, or electricity? +Yeah, so I should think quite a few. +I mean I've filled in a few forms for them but I mean probably you're a passive owner like me in the sense that I don't go and actively trade them, er I keep them in a long term investment, and that's it. +So er shares are relatively high risk, ad obviously your tax rate's important as well. +So that's the first consideration when I'm looking at somebody's investments, how do they view their own investment strategy? +Erm consideration two. +Your home, staying or moving,any debts other than a mortgage, should you pay off your mortgage. +Anybody got that question, anybody like to consider that one? +Yes? +Well you see mortgages are a, a, a pretty dodgy subject really because you've got so many er different er er variables on a mortgage, but the m but the basic erm pattern of mortgages is that if we've got a ten thousand pound loan over ten over say twenty years,so that's twenty years there. +And this is what's called a repayment er type profile. +What you actually do is you pay off the loan gradually over that peri period of twenty years, so you get from that point to that point and it's, it's sort of level to start with, you're paying mainly interest off and not much capital, so when you get a statement from the building society, you still seem to owe virtually the same that you started with. +And then in the last sort of seven to eight years, it starts to decline quite rapidly because you're actually paying off the capital at that stage, and th that's where I may meet somebody at say fifteen years, they thought their mortgage would run to age sixty five and they actually retire at sixty, they've got five years left and they're about there. +And the question normally is well, do I pay it off or not? +Well, erm a lot of your tax relief under the MIRAS system, which you're aware it gives you tax relief at source up to thirty thousand, has been absorbed up here, that's where most of your tax relief is, so down here the tax relief on the capital element is nil, and of, it's only, if it's only about three thousand outstanding, I might say, well, get rid of that, you know, just, just erm er cash it, and then you've got the l you c can forget your mortgage commitment altogether. +You won't make a lot of difference. +Cos I do find people with repayment mortgages actually erm er a lot of them pay over the odds, so they might be paying seventy or eighty pounds a month anyway to clear the mortgage, so mentally they've already made their decision to actually accelerate the payments on it. +Erm so that's one thing to bear in mind. +Erm on the other hand if you've got ten thousand on a, an endowment basis, this is a different matter. +Now an endowment is obviously based on a principle of interest only on l loan, so over the same term, of twenty years, you've only ever paid interest off the loan and you still owe th a after twenty years, you'd still owe the building society ten thousand pounds. +Er most people, well quite a few people will have an endowment mortgage, is that right? +Yes. +Now what happens here is that erm normally, you'll have a, a er an endowment attached which erm has got a sum assured and that sum assured may be about six thousand say, and onto that are added bonuses. +And those bonuses +each year can't be taken away once they're added. +And er again, when we get to year fifteen, I get one or two clients who say to me well actually the Norwich have just sent me a bonus record through and I've actually got nine thousand in the pot already, I think I'll pay the mortgage off. +Er now of course erm that would be a pretty dodgy thing to do because of er the way the Norwich work their bonuses. +And er most of you will be aware that, where does most of your money come from on an endowment? +Terminal. +Terminal. +Right. +And Norwich would be delighted if you cashed early, because that means that their pool, their, their main fund is not at is not going to have to pay you any terminal bonus. +So they'll only as attached and your sum assured, and thank you very much. +Because your bonus is really a, used to be around about five percent but if you look at them now, they've restructured them, which means they've reduced them. +Always read restructured as reduced, erm so that you +you've got erm three, three and a half percent say per annum, er plus erm a superbonus which is perhaps five percent of additional bonuses, so it looks better but it isn't really. +But I mean basically that sort of contract you want to complete. +Even if you decide at the end of the day that you're not bothered about the MIRAS tax relief, you want to see the back of this loan, keep your endowment running, because that's where the real meat of the contract is. +And erm although there's been sort of all sorts of stuff in the press, have you seen all this stuff in the press about endowments? +It's ridiculous. +I mean over the last two years it's been shock horror headlines, you know, will endowments fail to repay the loan,are endowments good value and I ke some of the journalists I've read bef over the last two years have actually completely reversed what they said t two years ago when P E Ps were declining because of poor share markets and bonuses were coming through quite nicely on the endowments, they said oh endowments are the thing to do. +That's what you want, a decent endowment, it takes out all the fluctuations, and er the they've big reserves, and of course the minute the endowment starts to look a bit poorer, it's switch back to P E Ps, course I've always said that P E Ps were a good idea, and the charges are much better now than they were, and I'm just thinking of the poor chap that's read the paper two years ago, over his tea and toast on a Sunday and thought mhm good idea, I'll take an endowment, and two years later it's the same person saying aha, no, pretty bad news an endowment. +I mean as usual with financial journalism, er i it's somewhere in between, I mean endowments are having a bad run at the moment and that's because they've paid out such excellent bonuses in the past so if you've had a maturity in the last four or five years, you'll have seen how good they are. +But they can't matter. +In other words, er they weren't trying to sort of scrape it together to actually repay your, repay your twelve thousand pound wh loan at the end of twenty years. +They would actually give you a fairly good sum assured. +Now what's happened the problem would be for your children, who are faced with erm building societies and banks who are red hot to sell endowments because of the better commission value to the company, and the, the endowments to make them competitive have actually been structured so that it's the minimum premium, the minimum possible premium. +And that means the minimum possible return. +So even at ten and a half percent rejection, if you look at the latest figures, it costs you thirty pounds a month for an Eagle Star low-cost super super-duper endowment, but at the end you're only going to replace your money, if you've got erm the ten and a half growth rate, ten and a half percent, which is unlikely i in current circumstances. +So if you've got children looking at mortgages, just tell them to be careful and that I think really my advice would be to, for anyone starting off a new mortgage now, to definitely go for repayment, until they've sorted out what they're doing, because if you cash an endowment within two years, if you can't keep up the payments, if you lose your job, then y you get nothing back. +So you could have paid a company five hundred, six hundred pounds, and have no surrender value whatsoever, in the first two years, cos they'll take their charges out on a twenty year, a twenty five year contract. +So to my mind, er the, the people dare dance should have been yourselves er I mean some years ago where your jobs are very secure, you knew that you were likely to see the end of the term in e e employed. +That's a different proposition. +But er I, unfortunately they are sold as er a sort of er a sort of a major positive factor in house buying. +And I mean I know the screens are flickering in the Halifax and the Bradford and Bingley e even as we speak, and they do this fabulous analysis, you know you can see that to, to go for the repayment is not as efficient as the endowment, but it's all a theoretical exercise. +And I think for youngsters it's much better to have a repayment and then maybe change it later on to, to a savings type mortgage. +Erm but er that's a bit of an aside,th I think I think it's important because I think the old, the old style endowments were much stronger. +The other thing is, you're probably getting L A P R, that's life assurance premium relief, on any contracts that were taken out prior to nineteen eighty four. +And L A P R is half of the current tax rate, so you'll be earning twelve and a half percent on your, has anyo any pre-eighty four contracts? +Right. +Don't forget that if you alter your pre-eighty four, you lose your tax advantage. +March I think it was. +Sorry? +March eighty four. +March eighty four, that's right, yeah. +Er and er anyone who's got that sort of contract, take my advice to keep it. +So even if you do repay your loan on a building society account, er don't forget that erm er the erm building society will then want to charge you for keeping the deeds of your house. +Cos if you take them back, you've got to keep them somewhere and building societies and banks are charging much more than they used to for actually keeping safe deposit. +So just work out with your building society whether they'll do it cheaply. +Or if you've got a solicitor who is handling your legal affairs, then perhaps they do it er for nothing or cheaply. +I mean y I think the charges that banks are making in order to make up some of their losses, they're going to be passed on to the average investor, you know the average client, so erm you know the Halifax will do it free, I've heard recently that they are actually charging for er holding your deeds. +And some of them actually cha make sure that you have to keep your house and contents insured through the society, which again can be more expensive. +So er just beware of what you're doing when you, when you, course you can actually keep a mortgage a a account open, in other words you can keep it open on a pound a year whatever it is with the Halifax. +And they will actually keep your deeds, erm work out if it is cheap enough to do it that way. +If we leave that, supposing you topped up your mortgage, which, with an endowment mortgage +Ah. +but a top up mortgage of course isn't because you can't +No. +you can't get the, the tax benefit that you got originally with an endowment. +Right. +Mr .! +keep their repayments low. +Now there is one window, and I'm glad you mentioned that because you just reminded me that, that, that you can get fi good fixed-rate loans at the moment. +Y very good fixed-rate loans. +Erm if they, if you've got a heavy mortgage, and I'm not suggesting that many of you will have a heavy mortgage, it's not a bad thing when you're retiring to fix a rate, because we've not been able to do that for a long time. +And at the moment the building societies and banks are chasing business, they're really desperate, and er they'll, they'll give you a very good fixed rate. +Now I've got some tables in the car, and if you'd like me to fetch them during break, I'll, I'll leave them on the table for you. +Because I just fixed my mortgage for four years with the Halifax, and it's a total gamble fixing mortgages, by the way, if we, you know, because I don't know where interest rates are going to go, but I, I fixed at seven point seven five percent for four years. +You can get a seven year fix with Barclays, at about eight point five percent. +That's over seven years. +If you go for a ten year fix, Bank of Scotland are doing it at about eight point nine nine. +That's ten years. +Now you can see what's happening. +Shorter term fix at very low rates, medium term fix medium rates, and so on. +Now, what you've got to do is to think well if you've got a mortgage over er I wouldn't think you'd consider this if your mortgage was under twenty thousand, it's not such a big +liability, but if you're getting beyond that, you've got to think well is it worth me spending money to actually erm er get the mortgage fixed? +Erm it I think it is, because I think we're in a, we're in a dip, if I can just go off the the, the idea of conventional investments at the moment. +But this is the interest rate dip we're in here, I mean we've seen, we've seen I reckon we're somewhere around here, we could be either side of that, but I think what we're going to find next year is that the Chancellor, because he's had to keep interest rates low and he's stimulating the economy, er you're going to find that eventually he's going to have to push interest rates up to control inflation. +Because everybody de everybody's denying inflation is there. +And it is at the moment because nobody's buying any goods. +But the minute we all start buying goods again, it's ith an endowment. +I think that the compan companies out there have not made any profits for about five years, and they're desperate to return to er an even keel, and they are going to force up the price of goods and services as soon humanly possible, and we'll pick up the bill. +And inter interest rates will have to come up to control er the rate of inflation, if the government pursues its normal course. +So I think there is a case for going for a fixed-rate. +How much does it cost? +Well, if you're going with your own society,th it's about two fifty to three hundred. +I mean the Halifax charged me three hundred pounds for this and I've already got a mortgage with them, so they don't need to do any sort of er er in depth surveys, or, or, or assessments on the house. +So I rang the Halifax and er I said I'd like this fixed rate please. +I said erm if you're already a Halifax customer, what's the charge? +Cos I thought well, he'll probably say, you know, half to you. +You know, with being a Halifax customer. +She said three hundred pounds. +So I said oh, er, is there, there's no discount for being a Halifax customer? +No, no, no. +I said but you've not got to do any work for this. +She said well that's the rules, you know that's how we're doing this, we're offering a fixed-rate for three hundred pounds. +So I said okay, okay, yeah, send me the forms. +She said do well you don't need any forms, cos it's only you, we're only going to alter it on the computer +only going to alter it on the computer anyway. +So she says if you just write me a letter and get your wife to sign it, we'll do the rest, put your three hundred pounds in the in with your application. +So I thought, this is money for old rope, you know. +But er there you go you pay your money and you take your choice. +Er I mean y y the i if you are moving from one society to another, then obviously er you will be charged, and there will be the two hundred and fifty pound fixing fee, plus whatever else. +So y I've got to weigh up whether I'm actually going to make a profit over four years or whether it's going to be, but I'm not doing it for that it's not so much making a profit as the fact that I can secure the loan for four years and know that I haven't got any extra to, to find, and when you've retired, if you've got say seven years on your mortgage and you're thinking well if mortgage rates go up erm I could get stuffed you know if they doubled again then you could actually fix on that assumption. +But erm it is a risk because you don't know whether they're going to go up or down. +And er we could all get it wrong, and we could be in the E R M,i if we go back into the E R M then er you know if they stabilize interest rates across Europe er then we could be okay. +But I mean a fixed rate is a bird in the hand, really, and I think they're quite good at the moment. +So I'll bring that list in for you to have a look at, and you might spot your own society in there and give them a ring and see what they, they've got on offer. +Er okay so I think that er covers mortgages, but if you've got any house if you've got any house improvement loans which were taken out anything like credit card debts anything where you're paying er a high rate of interest, then I think you should get rid of those every time . +You know cancel any of your big debts because it's going to help your budgeting if you know that you've got rid of a lot of er +bits and pieces. +Erm and er you can then budget accordingly. +Er right, I'm just having a check to see whether, Scott is it half past ten? +Yes. +Er ten forty five. +Ten forty five so we've gone a bit . +Ke the, the k kettle's boiling so at the most convenient time, John, if you'd care to +Right. +Okay. +Yeah, yeah. +rather than the clock. +Okay, I will do. +Er I'll just talk erm just talk briefly about emergency access money, cos this wi this covers one point I in the next session. +Erm it's to erm reserve er for emergencies, obviously, I, I'd use a building society or bank, to cover holidays and domestic needs, to set up hobby or retirement applications, so we'd always say, leave a fair amount in the building society, and the only thing th advice I'd give you is one, stick to the major societies, and secondly, if you're looking for larger investments, use a postal account. +Anybody got one yet? +Right. +Okay. +They're getting more popular. +And er certainly I think they're good value. +Erm postal accounts have got er a definite er advantage over other er methods of er er building society holdings. +Purely because you've got no staff. +I mean the Cheltenham and Gloucester, the Britannia, erm the erm Bristol and West, they've all got no staff, they just have a computer and er and erm they send you er everything through the post. +But the rates are obviously slightly better than you will get elsewhere, about three quarter percent above an ordinary ninety day account and the main advantage normally instant access on these accounts. +So where, if I'm putting twelve thousand in for sort of a, a holding fund for, for individuals I might put three thousand into a local society so they can pop down to the Nottingham Building Society for any bits and pieces, and th the, the bulk of it can go into a postal account to, with a better rate. +But er I would warn you about er er accounts which obviously tie your money for a lot longer than maybe six months or a year because you're always at the mercy of the er of the er building society then if their rates turn down or if you want access, you've got penalties, and I think if, there's no point in chasing interest rates through building societies generally, because if you take an average over five years, there isn't a lot of difference between one society and another. +And you know what's happened I mean there's a lot of trickery involved where they get you into an account that if you read the small print it says Ju rates guaranteed until June ninety three and as soon as June ninety three, and as soon as June ninety three comes around, your, your seven percent becomes five percent. +So you've always got that thing to think about. +So with building societies generally, it's got to be somewhere you like, somewhere that you, you've got instant access to, stick to the major players. +I remember one teacher retiring several years ago in Nottingham said to me er he says I'm sticking with the Nationwide, me. +He says . +Well why's that I said? +Well when I cycle into Nottingham, they let me keep my bike in the branch while I go shopping. +And that's +Rather than replacing the push bike . +Erm just before we break, erm it might be worthwhile just having a look at a few examples. +And erm we won't have time to go through all of these afterwards, but if I hand a few round to you, what I'd like you to do is er just have a go and jot down some of the er solutions that you would provide. +Put yourself in the position of a financial adviser, for the couple that you see, these are all theoretical couples obviously, theoretical individuals, and just jot down on this the sort t. +Mr .! +Can you go widows, widowers or single people? +Yes, yeah. +But er I think it doesn't really matter whether it's erm it's er you know relating to your own circumstances, it's more l it's more ab about just solving problems really. +Can I just ask about the postal accounts at this stage. +Er where do you find out about those? +Er postal accounts. +Well you can get them in the financial press, erm usually the Telegraph on a, on a weekend or the Money Mail or the, any of the loca any good quality paper, or you can buy some of the financial guides that you get in er, in er newsagents these days. +I mean I use things like Money Management, and they're quite useful, erm but er you don't need to erm er spend a lot of time looking round. +There is a building society shop in Nottingham, isn't there? +Yes. +And I think they can do quite a bit on that. +? +Yeah, I will. +I'll try and find you one. +Yeah, oh there's a good one. +Right. +Some of these are extreme examples, some not. +And er once you've had a look at that, you can er perhaps break for coffee, and we'll have a chat about it after the break. +Right, erm so we'll er just start with a quick erm er look round what people have decided on for investment er in individual cases. +So i i if you can er give me the background if I ask you to sort of give me a bit of background for the case, I'll write it up here, and I'll write down the solutions and see what, see what you've done. +Er okay er so has anybody done erm er let's start with erm er Miss , has anybody done Miss ? +Yes. +Yeah, yeah, we're half way down it. +Oh no, right, yes okay. +Er so if you can start us off. +Thank you, to the local authority, I'd +Yeah. +I'd defer it. +I'd defer it. +I +Yeah. +get to make some more. +Yeah, you can't really defer your pension you have to take it when you retire, don't you? +I don't think you can defer it. +Can you? +You, you can defer a state pension, but it's not really that, that viable. +Can't you do that? +We thought you could. +Not with er not with a local authority pension, as far as I'm aware. +I wouldn't recommend it anyway. +put it back into your pension fund? +Er +To grow, to take ? +You can if it's a, if it's a private pension, yes you can do. +But you can't . +No no let's assume, let's assume that she has to take it. +I don't think you can. +I mean nobody's ever asked me that question before. +Sorry. +Can I defer my pension? +Anyway, if we can start with er with, with the position as it's there, you know if we can take that. +Er two, private income. +Shares. +Right. +Okay so she's getting, is it ten thousand from Lloyds? +Five. +Yeah, five from private shares +Five from her pension. +Yeah. +So she's got an income of ten. +She's got her own house. +No mortgage. +No mortgage, right. +Lump sum plus redundancy money of twenty grand. +Yeah. +Building society deposits twenty grand. +Yeah. +And value of eight grand. +Yeah, so she's +Total forty eight. +So she's got forty eight thousand right so er what was the inter er er you would question the instruction. +Cos she was . +She, she's got a modest lifestyle. +That, that's, that's your ten thousand a year income, she can get by on that er this is interesting cos it's all shares. +I, when I wrote it I thought well she's inherited this from her family and +Yeah. +that that's ongoing income, so what would you suggest there then? +I think a world cruise. +World cruise, yes. +I've had that before. +Send her round the world three times. +keen and adventurous,. +Okay, so if you can give me some suggestions that might, might actually improve, cos we've got to be seriously thinking that she's fifty six, this is the other key to it. +Mhm. +And she's got a long time to use this money, and okay this might be sufficient now, but will it be when she's seventy, seventy five, so we've got to make that money work so +Something to pay but tax. +That's right. +Yes, I mean er something to er mitigate or er evade and evade is a bad word isn't it really? +Avoid. +Avoid. +Avoid. +Avoid tax, yes. +Yes. +Or tax, tax planning. +Anyway, erm the er what were your solutions then to that? +You started it, so you know. +Well, the first one we got kicked on the head because take the pension. +Oh right. +Erm +No, okay, can I pass that on to somebody else, yes? +I've done the lot. +Keep your bank account in credit. +Yes. +Get a TESSA. +TESSA. +Right. +P E P? +P E P? +P E P. +Keep five thousand in a local instant access building society. +, fingers crossed. +Put five thousand in a top ten postal account. +Yes. +Put the rest in unit trusts with a long established firm. +Yeah. +Unit trusts. +Right. +Okay. +So, +Index-linked . +Er right,another suggestion of index-linked, would you recommend that as +reasonable? +. Er well I'll put those down, so let's find some of these because obviously you won't have met them all, maybe. +But erm certainly erm I, I think that was erm a, a very good response to this because erm obviously we've got er a g a fair selection here, you've got erm building society instant and top ten postal, that's the postal account there, erm TESSA, P E P and unit trusts, and possibly index-linked certificates, and I'll go back to those but I mean certainly that was a good er a good spread, and I think er you know you should be er thinking, well you know this lady's going to have some safe growth in the in the future. +Erm and obviously she's used to shares she's not going to be worried about unit trusts or P E Ps cos she's already had er a lot of share er a P E P share income here anyway. +So she'll be quite happy w to spread it like that. +Erm the only thing that erm I thought she might er do was erm er something else on a ten year basis, because she's only fifty six, I mean that's relatively young, so would you possibly suggest anything that could go for ten or more years? +An annuity. +Erm +with profits annuity. +With profits, yeah. +Or, or endowments I was thinking of, rather than a +But she's no children, why she doesn't want to actually ? +No no, but an endowment's purely savings if it's taken as a, as a maximum investment plan or a, or a, an i i a pure endowment. +And he's erm when we were thinking about tax planning, I was thinking that if a, a, a qualifying endowment, if it's run for ten years, the one big advantage is that it always pays without deduction of tax. +So it's always t tax-free cash, and any tax-free cash that we can accumulate would be very useful. +Because you've no idea in ten years time what your er er position will be with regard to income and tax. +I mean, for a start we've got twenty five pence in the pound tax rate, where will we be in five years time? +Thirty percent? +Thirty two percent? +So any tax-free cash that she's got might be useful. +I mean I won't go into detail, but I mean she could do endowment, she could do it on a maximum investment plan basis, to back up her P E P, erm and save regularly through different funds. +So I mean that was a good solution. +Er any others for Miss , with any other alterations to that? +Any, any other suggestions? +Can I ask a question? +Yes. +I didn't know this one. +Erm if you're buying an endowment policy is it possible to put er put it in as it were paid up, or do you have to find the premiums out of your income? +Erm +You can, you can make a single premium contribution to it, +Ah. +that's a useful point actually, I, I'll, I'll cover it now, cos er the lady over there mentioned an annuity, the two can be done together. +It's called a back-to-back, and er the insurance company issue two, two contracts. +They issue an er they issue an annuity, which is erm er if you're not sure what an annuity is, this is a temporary annuity, and they might say in the case of Miss they might say well what about a ten year annuity? +Er in actual fact it's a ten year contract, you buy er a nine year annuity, and the first premium goes to the endowment when you put the money in so let's say we er put a thousand pounds in in the, the first year, and that fund's on an, on an annual premium. +Now the next nine premiums come from the annuity, and that feeds in here. +Now at the end of the ten years of course the erm the accumulation here erm is completed, we've, we've actually funded the policy right the way through, so it's now a qualifying policy, tax-free down here, and the annuity has been exhausted, so that's gone, so you've used one to fund the other. +And at the end of the ten years of course that's all tax-free cash. +The annuity is actually quite a attractive because there's not much tax er liability on an annuity anyway, only a very small proportion and for her in this situation she could actually make a single contribution of say eight thousand pound, the maturity from the endowment, and actually buy this sort of contract straight off. +In which case she doesn't have to worry about funding from income, which is what your question was wasn't it? +Yeah. +She doesn't have to fund it from income. +And it would all be funded from within the contract. +Er they're very good in fact, I mean even the erm if you look at say the result from Clerical Medical over ten years, erm fifteen thousand invested, er currently er returning something like forty three thousand over er the five the ten year term, so that's not bad. +You know, well over double your money, which is what a building society would have done, it would just about have doubled your money over ten. +But of course the problems are with this contract that it wouldn't suit everybody, one because you've got no access for the ten years, you've bought the contract up front, and if you want access to it, it's very limited and of course if you cash an endowment early as we know it'd damage the, the er the income sorry the, the growth at the end of the plan. +Er but we can write these with some f flexibility, and erm there is a deferred income version, where you can run it so you were say you didn't need income five years, you can run it for five years, then la then leave it erm and just take the annuity income as er as, as er regular income. +So you can actually move it about a bit, but it's not that flexible a contract. +But in the case of a younger person, looking for er very secure growth, it's not a bad thing to do. +So erm Miss , I mean she's an easy case to do really, +What +cos she's got loads of, sorry? +What sort of return would you get over ten years on, on a gold brick. +Bullion. +Jewellery, diamonds. +Er hard to say, because you're moving into er specialist areas like commodities. +Erm I mean we don't even look at the figures on those, because it's not the sort of investment that we would actually consider erm useful for a, for a longer term investor. +I m she's a little bit different in that she could erm take erm a flyer into something like that +Yeah. +but commodities are high risk by the nature of er the narrowness of the market. +And I mean recently I came across somebody who'd got some part holdings in diamonds, and of course the diamond market's gone into rapid decline because of the er is it Namibian diamonds, and, and the Russians er breaking up the De Beer market. +And you can, you can have that thing looking very very difficult, very, in very short time. +So I mean she'd have to be a very speculative investor, she'd have to be right up to er adventurous, for her to think about that. +Er but I mean as, as to returns, I mean you'd have to look at specialist press for that erm +Yes. +I mean I've got some indications in er a couple of books I've got in the car, er but erm again I've not been asked that question you know, what's the bullion return, things like that, it's, it's a little bit out of the ordinary, but you can find the figures. +Yes? +Can you explain P E Ps? +Don't know about them. +Right, okay, well I'll do it now, so we don't, so we're not mechanically going through this, cos I mean if you don't know what a P E P is, it's worth looking at now. +So, a P E P is erm er introduced by er Mr Lawson, who you might remember some time ago had er a job as the Chancellor and is now working part-time in the City. +Yeah. +He, he does get p paid more than two, two pound fifty an hour as I understand. +I mean I l the, the pundit system in this country is absolutely delightful, I mean you don't need do you, when I mean the economy's in, in, in reverse and things are going horribly wrong and they wheel on Mr Lawson to explain what he would have done, +had he still been in control, and I'm thinking God,how do they, how on earth can they possibly go and say that you know? +It's like, it's rather like asking Henry Kissinger to sort of er er give us some advice on foreign policy in Sou in South-East Asia or whatever. +I mean,i i i it's, it's almost an, an obsession with society. +Isn't it? +To bring back people who erm you know perhaps have had their time +and ask their opinion. +Anyway, six thousand into a standard P E P, now er P E Ps are erm er an instrument which were basically to do with shares, originally and the shares were invested in U K companies, and er the real dividend value of a sh the share, the, the shares have a dividend, and the real value of a P E P is the dividend yield. +Now if a go if a company's got a high dividend yield, it might be about six percent gross. +And of course it'll be four and a half after it's paid tax, you know if you've got any tax credits from your nationalized shares, you'll see those come through, and y you've got the net return. +Now P E P allows you to er allows the managers on your behalf to reclaim the tax, so a lot of the funds are geared for income, and when you're retiring, income geared P E Ps are excellent news. +Now, the e the early versions were erm a lot less er flexible, they were the dinosaurs, and if anybody's got an original P E P, they'll know that all the dealing transactions, all the adjustments have all got to be noted and filed, and if anybody's had a Lloyds Bank P E P since nineteen eighty seven, they'll probably have a compete cabinet full of paperwork by now. +Which you don't have on a mede modern P E P because they can be written through investment trusts, unit trusts, single shares for three thousand or specialist, er self-select P E Ps. +Self-select P E Ps are a little bit different, is that when you, you the managers give you a choice of shares and it's rather like pulling the handle on the one-armed bandit, you say right, I'll start with er er I C I and I'll back that up with B A T, and, and you leave them in for as long as you want, and you pay a charge when you move the shares, so you can actually control the P E P. +Er very difficult unless you're into the share market er on a regular basis, but erm if you want a P E P, er er I, I'd certainly say they're worth having, and certainly for some of the people er in this room. +But don't be erm er led into doing growth, growth P E Ps necessarily, because growth P E Ps really won't give you much of a deal. +If you want a growth-type investment, such as I don't know, Far Eastern fund, or something like that, or a, or even a European Special Situations, you n you, you might as well not use the P E P because they wh you get about one percent on er a growth P E P. +And that's not going to be of use to anybody is it? +You're not saving any tax on that, on that difference. +So a one percent dividend yield, not, not worth writing as a P E P. +But what they've done is, they've actually dis distorted the rules on P E Ps as time's gone along and the Chancellor's allowed them to do it, and the distortions are getting more and more elaborate, and er I think they keep knocking on the revenue door and saying er we, we've designed this one, is this okay? +And so far the revenue have been going yeah, yeah, go away go away. +And er eventually somebody will spot it, and realize that they've actually moved well away from what p P E Ps originally were. +You see one of the rules is that you keep money in cash until it was invested. +And Fidelity kept saying well, er if we don't feel like investing it this month, can we keep it in cash a bit longer? +And if we're keeping it in cash, can we buy some gilts? or can we buy some fixed interest securities? +Yeah, okay, you can do that. +So now a anything goes in a P E P. +Which is great while i while it, while it lasts. +What does P E P mean? +Personal equity plan. +you can have it nine thousand if you pay six into the fund and another three thousand . +Yes. +And then three thousand in that's the single share P E P in any one . +And you need to choose a P E P manager per year, so if you're already with one P E P manager, you've either got to buy him out and give it to another P E P manager, or you can, you can erm er choose another one each year in other words, I do a different P E P each year, with a different manager, and that keeps everything moving so that you've got a good spread. +Some of them are getting very elaborate, and you're seeing the stuff in the press for things like ten percent gross yields, has anybody seen those? +A a absolute scream, they are. +But I mean they actually do work, er ten percent gross yield and erm if you asked me to explain how they get the ten percent, I'd have to use some notes they gave to me cos it's, cos it's complicated, but they use derivatives, and they buy in er in the shares and options market, and erm the company I'm thinking of actually own the shares, but you take options on them, and they take commission on the options, they also take dividends, er and by the time you've read the, the, the spiel, it sounds a bit like you've fitted all these petrol savers to your car and you're driving to Nottingham, and the tank overflows, it's that sort of +it's, it's that sort of theory. +But there's a, it, it actually does work, it actually does work. +I m I mean we have approved these schemes, I mean th they are nothing to do with direct share ownership. +I mean you might have about forty percent of the fund in shares and the rest will be input options, derivatives and all sorts of complicated devices. +But basically as far as you are concerned you can get that sort of dividend yield, which is brilliant because i y as a tax-payer if you can te ten percent erm the, the fund is written as a unit trust and you'd be paying seven you'd be paid seven and a half percent on that one, so which one would you choose? +Have it written as a P E P and it makes good sense. +But I think the distortions are getting rather weird now, and I, I think that, that the, in a, in a future budget when the Chancellor's less pressed, I mean P E Ps really weren't a priority this year, were they? +I'm sure he'd got a few more bits of paper on his desk than what shall we do about P E Ps? +But when he gets round to it, I think he'll control them a bit more closely, now you can invest in that sort of fund quite safely, and although it won't give you any capital growth, because if they're giving you ten percent income, obviously the capital growth's going to be limited, but er if it's the income that you're after, not a bad thing to do, so I mean at the moment I may actually combine one income-type er P E P with one growth and income, where the, where the, perhaps the yield is about five percent. +Er the original criticism, if you can remember it, was all the ch all the stuff about charges, do you remember all that? +About, you know, the horrible charges, and they were horribly badly charged, I mean, Lloyds Bank you reckon they could activate ten and a half percent in its first year to actually break even you know, because of the initial charges setting up fees, etcetera. +Now that's pretty heavy going. +It wasn't Lloyds fault, it was just that they were complying with the original P E P regulations about reporting and, and er so on, so they had to charge more. +So it, if it's an ordinary unit trust, your initial charge can be somewhere about five to six percent, however, a number of companies have realized that they can discount if you, if they've got your s if they've got your commitment, they'll discount. +So in some groups, if I say right, this client's willing to commit himself for three years minimum, they'll discount the initial charge down to about two percent. +In some cases down to nil if we take a five year contract. +In other words, if you come out early, you'll be charged, erm er a sliding scale. +On that five on the five year one, if you come out year three, you'll get three percent exit charge. +Now we've been asking for this for years. +Because nobody likes to pay up front. +I mean, it's not fair is it really? +I mean you're taking five percent of your money when you first go into the fund, and, and that's an exceptional er amount of money that you won't get back, but if i if they're saying well we'll invest the whole lot for you, but you've got to keep with us,w then y you've got the option. +And if in three years you decided the performance was less than adequate, it would be worth you losing two percent to come out. +Now having said that I mean the late long established er unit trust group, I mean as a, as a company we've got to be very careful who we use, we've got an approved list erm in London and in Bournemouth we have erm a, a department which analyzes products, and those products come onto our approved list when they've, when they've fulfilled a number of criteria. +Are the charges reasonable, er is the performance good, is the managing group secure? +And er a number, a number of other factors. +So once it's got onto our approved list, we're pretty sure that we're, we're really in the right area. +And that would be you know companies you're probably already familiar with, you know people like M and G, erm Fidelity, erm er . +Erm anybody who's into unit trusts who will perhaps recognize some of those names. +And then into the investment trust,and Colonial, er and erm er let's see,, people like that. +So w w w that's constantly reviewed. +Not that I do it, I mean if I tried to read all that stuff, I'd never leave home but I mean they actually give a a an advice list which we can then comply with. +So as far as you're concerned, P E Ps have got a tremendous part to play at the moment, and I do recommend that you take advantage of them. +Two years ago, difficult for me to get a client to move from a building society because they were saying well I'm getting about nine percent with the Abbey National, er why should I take the risk on a P E P? +Well the risk now is staying in Abbey National because your rate's down to about four percent net. +And the, the dividend yield from a P E P can be anything from sort of five to ten percent and the potential for capital growth. +And it's tax-free. +And it's tax-free. +But you've got to make a mental leap, because I mean for the last five years, things have been pretty horrible, since eighty seven really, I mean we've only had the pick up in the last year. +But it's an act of faith to say well,i you know well, I'll go into a P E P. +But if you look at the low-risk a aspect of a P E P and you also look at the low charges, it's got to be worth looking at, and certainly in terms of spread for Miss , worth erm worth considering, I mean she'd be er a perfect investor for that. +Some years a tin under the bed was better than equities, cos they were +That's right. +Except er I, I mean I'd say that the income funds actually performed quite well, if you didn't look at the capital value. +You see, I mean I, I, I've got lots of clients who've had capital-l er er income-led funds on this sort of thing for years. +And I mean if they'd not looked in a paper in nineteen eighty seven eighty eight, and realized that fifteen percent of the fund had suddenly gone missing cos it had you know dropped they they'd have still got income from their investments, and if they didn't need to cash it, then it would have been no problem at all. +The funny thing is that er if you look at the better dividend funds in the year of the crash, the dividends actually went up, cos dividend yields from companies were good in that year, so people wouldn't have lost out, their income would have been quite stable. +Er obviously if it was in decline, terminal decline then your income and your capital would fall as well. +But I mean we've had five years of bad stockmarket performances, and in cyclical er economics I think if you look at the sort of post-war boom +slump, we're, then we're back into I wouldn't say a boom, er that's not really the right description, but we're certainly back out of the er woods as far as erm er shares go in the U K. +Erm whether it'll be a sustained erm recovery is another question, but I think you can take the view that you know you will, you will get some mileage out of share performances in the next couple of years. +Even the banks. +Er the share prices are higher now than they were months ago. +That's right. +That's right. +And I mean the banks have erm er r really been an i indicator of economic performance, and, and that, that's the case. +That it +quite a, quite a shock +Yes. +to them I think. +Yeah, that's right. +So if we can have a look at another case, er did anybody do erm excuse me, Mr and Mrs ?? +Anybody do ? +No, I didn't hand one out. +Erm ? +Mr and Mrs ? +Right, okay, just start with Mr . +Er he's got a pension from the local of four thousand. +Yeah. +Erm his wife is self-employed, has got four thousand, but it's not . +So it could come up could go. +No mortgage. +And the building society savings of twenty eight thousand. +Right, so erm what do we do with that then? +S s cos they needed a secure income, didn't they? +Yes.. +Er what's the +I, I Mr 's got four thousand, +Yes. +so with the married man's allowance, he's got, he's well under. +Yes. +Six five. +. +And his wife has something like er three four four five, +Yes. +er which may or may not be there because we don't know how much her income is. +I think we'd have to ignore that allowance +Yes. +and just assume that she, she'll just about use it, erm +Er okay. +Er well in that case then, I, I put eight thousand into a building society for easy access, car, holiday,, whatever, +Yeah. +and I put twenty thousand pounds to give, I, I mean I took it that she would use her allowance, er I took it erm as twenty thousand pounds to give his wife as high a possible gross earning +Yes. +and so divided it that the remainder went to the husband to take up the one thousand one hundred and sixty five. +Right. +Right. +So you could actually erm erm put something in joint names even, and it would use up his allowance. +I mean if you took that ten percent, it would be two thousand a year from +Yes. +erm and if that was so, +Yes. +roughly half of that could go to him +Yes. +to make up his allowances, +Right. +a a and the rest er +Right. +That's fine, but how would you do it? +Er was it just a high rate building society, or? +No, I would put it in gross earnings, perhaps erm half into National Savings +Yes. +er and look round for something else. +Right. +So National Savings, that's not a bad decision, cos I mean National Savings are absolutely secure, and the other thing is that you don't need to put twenty five thousand pounds in to get the highest rate, you'll get the highest rate from two thousand pounds upwards, so it's very good for small amounts. +So it's excellent here, but we know that it's at a variable, and I think the problem that you were probably facing is how do you secure a a better rate than that. +Erm you know the, the answer must be that erm er just before I answer that, I mean has anybody else done Mrs , and Mr ? +Anybody else do that one? +We did it, but it was very similar. +Right, okay, fine, that s saves a bit of time. +But I mean the thing is here that the twenty thousand pounds, if it's invested er into National Savings, you c you've got another ten thousand and you could look for er a fixed return. +Now normally, fixed returns we do use, you know like guaranteed income bonds, guaranteed er returns, but unfortunately, if you look at the Halifax list, or the er any building society list, their fixed-rate returns are very dodgy and they're round about sort of er six and a half to seven percent at the most erm if you tie for three to four years, and they go up to about seven and a half, maybe a little bit more if you tie for five years. +Now I'm not too sure whether interest rates, I'm not very keen on tying interest rates, you see I think we're going up again, perhaps within the next eighteen months, so one way round is to use another type of investment, and you could use an offshore erm fund, er building society stroke investment fund, er which would actually give you a better rate. +Has anybody used offshore funds at all? +Right. +Er. +Was that a, is that pure building society investment, or? +No, it was a a bank gilt fund. +A gilt fund? +Right. +Erm +Jersey. +Jersey gilts? +And an and what was your opinion of that, did it work or not? +The cheque keeps coming. +Yeah. +There was a problem with gilt funds about three years ago, and T S B ran up against the problem of falling gilt yields and trying to maintain the, the flow to the investor, which they did, but th they failed to tell the investor that they were having to erm sell gilts and er trade under market value, so in fact you reduce the fund, but there are halfway stages, and I mean at the moment I can get round about eight percent, plus on, on erm er offshore funds. +And they, they invest outside U K and you're p perfectly legal to use these, and as long as they're Securities and Investment Board regulated, you're okay. +So you could put some money into er an offshore fund. +something which is regulated and i is part of a major organization, a bank, or an insurance company, you're pretty well okay. +And that, that eight percent plus could then be paid into your account. +But it's likely to be more stable than the U K, because if the U K rates continue to fall, they'll move their money into erm other er currencies. +It'll always be a sterling fund, but it can be moved into other currencies, or into gilts, as your fund obviously is. +So there is that flexibility there. +So that's one of the few options you've got at the moment. +I mean, fixed rates are dangerous because once you've fixed, if interest rates then go up, you've lost out on your er return and you can't get your money out anyway, so I mean at the moment it's really erm er er very deeply into the cycle of low, of low interest rates. +Okay, so now that was fairly straightforward, erm let's have a look at another case. +Mr , he's interesting. +We've got Mr . +Yes. +Right. +Mr . +Not very much on him though. +No. +I've got him. +Right so, er right, if you can start us off with Mr then, tell us the +Well, I've, I didn't look er erm I can see deficiencies in what I've done now you've been through the other +Well, it doesn't matter. +Yeah. +I mean, if you just tell us what you +Well, I thought he should put erm er about ten thousand into a building society er type investment +Right. +of some sort. +I'll just set the scene for the others in that he's er fifty five isn't he? +He's just come back from Australia +Yes. +and he's in inherited a family home, so he's got a home to live in, but he doesn't earn very much does he? +No, but he's got a hundred and twenty thousand nest egg. +So he's got three thousand pounds income, and he's got a hundred and twenty thousand pound nest egg. +Yes. +I've concentrated on investing the nest egg really. +Right. +Okay. +So you've got ten thousand into the building society. +Yes, I think he needed something quite secure and accessible. +Yeah. +Then er I thought perhaps he should go for erm erm something that's er will give him a, a good income, but er +Mhm. +growth as well, so I wondered about er say thirty thousand in investment trusts, or perhaps +Yes. +with a P E P you see that +Yes. +thirty thousand split between those. +Yeah, that's fine. +And then I, well if it's really income he needs, I thought he could look at an equities portfolio for the eighty thousand, say, forty thousand in er groceries and forty thousand in pharmaceutical. +Right. +So er sounds like you can act as inv investment manager for this man actually. +Erm, er but er yes,so eighty thousand to er in equity portfolio, and that would give him a yield of maybe erm you know four percent, something like that after tax deducted, so er let's say erm say you know er say three thousand two hundred from that roughly, and +P E P exceed the limits? +Er, yes it would. +We'd have to put most of it into investment trusts +Yes. +and just use up the P E P. +Unless it was his wife as well. +Yes erm +He's single. +Yes, he's single. +And of course he could use it up in subsequent years, he could move some of this into a P E P. +So er that would er +And he'd get a little bit on his building society, wouldn't he? +Right, yes, you would, yes. +I mean he'd perhaps get erm you know er let's say four hundred pounds a year on his building society, so he'd have some extra income, er four five, just over five thousand pounds a year, that's . +More than doubled what he's got. +Yes, that's right, er I mean the thing is you don't know how much income you've got to generate really. +No. +And er in, within that as you know you can actually er go for er the higher income if he wanted to he could push the income up on the hundred thousand say, we could make the income round about seven percent if we wanted to do. +Seven percent plus. +Which would give him seven thousand a year, rather than five. +So, er there's a fair bit of er I was interested in what you said about equity portfolios, erm the er thing is you'd have to have that privately managed, wouldn't you? +Yes. +And private management means that you would go to a bank or stockbroker, and then you would pay them an annual fee, and there would be other charges, you know for selling er and buying of shares, +Yes. +and my er feeling is that under say a hundred and fifty thousand, that y that you're going to find the charges are quite heavy, because it's not a group investment, it's an individual investment. +Erm some of the banks actually lay off the charges to some extent, but I think he might find that a bit expensive to run, erm and of course they'll take their charges even if they don't make a profit for you. +As often as not. +A s and, and quite frankly, er you're going to have to be a little bit careful. +I mean you could use group investments, I mean what you did with the investment trusts gives him a better spread, +Yes. +lower charges, and I think you could perhaps use other funds to erm er increase that. +Er but erm certainly the theory's okay, I mean he's got instant access here, investment trust and equities, and if he needed the income, he could certainly get it. +I mean you've got quite a lot of movement in there and, and you could do quite a bit for him. +I mean I imagined he was working in Earl's Court, you know, pulling pints of Fosters and er +possibly er needing a few bob to er you know tide him, but that, that's fine. +Did anybody else do Mr ? +We thought about him buying some property and letting it out. +Yes, yes, that's not a bad idea. +He could become a landlord. +So you, you could put him into property, erm but erm I don't know if he'd been in the U K for the last few years whether he'd be that keen on commercial property. +Would you like the whole of the Dockland development for a hundred and twenty thousand? +So t +That much? +It's quite pricey . +It is a good time now to buy isn't it? +Yes, it is a good time to buy Mr , yes, we ought to encourage him to buy. +So property and he could rent, and the rental income then could er be used er as a, as a useful form of income. +So that's a possibility. +Erm so any other possibilities for Mr ? +We thought he might find the house was too big for him, sell it and buy something smaller. +Right, yes he could do. +Get some capital that way. +Yes, he could do. +Or he could marry a rich sheila. +A wealthy widow has a lot . +Yes, he could start corresponding with Miss ,. +run a guest house or take . +Yes, run a guest house yes, yes. +Right, okay. +surprising he can get rid of the property by you know, sort of letting the building society or someone have it, have the capital out of it, and use that capital as well, cos if he's single he's got no dependent well, +Yes, yes. +we assume he's got no dependents, +Yes. +so he could actually have the benefit of that money as well. +Right, you mean like a home income scheme? +Yeah. +Yes. +Er, very wary of those, really, and we're not recommending them at all. +Er but that's only because of the erm the difficulties of erm er of, of ownership of this sort of thing. +I mean you u some of them used to be the growth roll up, you know the +the, the debt rolled up against the value of the home, and once it gets to seventy five percent, you lose the home, or could do, and of course people who took this out, it was before the housing collapse,you're in difficulties. +So unless you're very elderly, and you're living in a very er splendid dwelling it's probably not worth it. +I mean I If we have ten thousand pounds, we could put four thousands into an, an annuity, and say six thousand into a P E P, to give a simple example, and the P E P could then accumulate value over the te over the five years, let's assume it's a five year one, but it could be ten. +And that would give him about eighty pounds a month at the moment. +So that would be a guaranteed eighty pounds a month, and at the end of five years, we'd assume that the P E P had actually grown enough to give him his money back, you know it's, it's because this, because it's a temporary annuity, it would be lost after the five years. +It's not a lifetime annuity, and that would have grown to replace his er capital. +So he'd get the ten thousand back. +They're quite flexible, because he can actually take the income from the P E P if he wants to increase his er income as he goes along. +In Mr 's case, I'd probably write it for longer than five years, probably do a ten year one. +The snag is at the moment is that annuity rates aren't too hot, cos they've gone down with interest rates, so er I think maybe that I'd hold off doing that until later, and use other types of investment, and then maybe at maturity, roll it back into, into erm a er single premium annuity. +That's an alternative. +Now +I I have a gut feeling against annuities. +I don't like things that disappear, and I don't like +And you can't have your money back, +No. +once they've got your money. +Actually they do work well, I mean there is, there is one scenario where it does work well, if you're elderly, and you're in good health, then annuities are, are pretty good value because they look on their actuarial charts, if you're an eighty eight year old, and er make an assessment and say well, for every ten thousand you give us, we'll give thirteen thousand a year. +So you've not got to live that long before you're into profit. +You've got to make sure that you're in good health, and you're a er hale and hearty individual, so if you're from a long lived family, erm I once er made a mistake on er delivering one of these courses and er I think erm erm there's an elderly lady used to work on the course, do you remember Miss, Miss ? +Oh yes. +And she's a super lady. +And er very straight-faced in fact, and she was sitting at the back of the room, and I, I'd just said to everybody, I said nobody here's got a life purchased annuity, have they? +You know, cos I knew everybody was far too young. +And er this hand went up from the back, you see. +And I thought oh, well that's interesting. +So it was Miss . +And then I, and I made this bit of a faux pas, I says, oh you must have got a very good rate, cos I knew she'd been retired years and years, you see. +And everybody fell about laughing, realized . +But er I mean er she, she was in a perfect position to do it, I mean she'd been retired a long time, she was in good health and obviously an annuity would be perfect for her er where it wouldn't be for a younger person, so I mean life annuities not got. +But I think you're right on temporary annuities, they are good if the rate's good. +The ones that I did two years ago, which are giving a return of something about er nine to nine and a half percent a year, plus the potential for return in capital, will actually be very good. +I mean th th they've done better than anybody than everything else, because as rates have come down, I can go back and see a client and the National Savings has fallen, and the building society's fallen, but the, the annuity's still plugging away. +And it's horses for courses, it's secure. +It's a bit dull, but it does actually provide you with a level of income that you want. +And what you don't know is the question mark is at the end will you get your money back or not? +Well sometimes if I'm doing er say a sixty year old, to sixty five, he's got his state pension to come in at sixty five, so even if the P E P hasn't quite recovered, he might just decide to leave that where it is, and then his state pension comes in, his income is then made up, and off we go again. +So the thing is with all financial planning that you try and keep things very flexible. +And one of the flexibilities may actually be to say well if we've got this guaranteed income, we can afford to do something else with the rest. +Cos the problem is that th even di share dividends aren't guaranteed. +I mean, banks and building societies, whoever, can cut their dividend rate, and you suddenly find your income falls dramatically in one year. +So an annuity can't fall once you've bought it it's guaranteed, so you can see there are advantages to it. +And er it's a matter of getting the right mix. +So I, I wouldn't be entirely suspicious of an of annuities, but at the moment the er the erm temporary rates aren't too good. +Er right, so er if you take just one more example and then I'll have to get back to er what we do. +Did we finish off Mr ? +Anybody have an alternative for Mr ? +No. +Erm what about erm another case, have we got another case that er we, we haven't covered? +Nobody wants challenge me. +No I mean it's not, it's not that, it's just that if you've got, if you've got anything you want to say on these cases, then it's worth bringing it out now. +You've not mentioned premium bonds. +Is it worth, putting a certain amount s just, just in case, just in case +by seven percent on ERNIE,. +ERNIE's just been down-rated by the way to reduce the ou the, the ac the average now is less than seven percent. +It's gone down to about five point something hasn't it? +I in line with interest rates. +Now there was a theory in the south of England, that when one retired, for the first year, you dumped most of your lump sum into premium bonds on the hope of a big win, and then after the first year you invested it, you see, having taken the big win. +Cos if you see the, the theory was that if you left it there indefinitely, er obviously the money declines in real value, doesn't it, because you're getting no increase on it. +So, I mean to me, it's a pure gamble. +Er absolute gamble. +So I mean erm I was going to say put money on the Grand National, but you can't really do that can you? +But as far as, as far as erm the, the er the, the investment in, in premium bonds, it's got to be a flutter, it can be nothing else. +And I mean I, I find some clients are really lucky, you know they've got a few fiddly bits of issues and they keep getting fifty pounds here and fifty pounds there, +Every time I come back from my holidays, the first thing I open is the premium bond win. +Yeah, well, you see . +Won three times since last summer. +Good god. +Yeah, do you want sell your ? +enough to encourage one. +Yes. +Yeah, I think, I think really the er the er overall view of it is that it's not serious investment, I mean it is just pure flutter. +Er, and I mean if you want to buy you know a few hundred of it then fine, you know you could b it'll do the job, you know if it's, it's not a, a thing that er +Er you wouldn't include it on your list of essentials? +No, not at all. +Otherwise you might be desperate to get awa to do something, or get away on holiday, but you're still waiting for that big win. +It's a +Wait for ever. +Yeah, you w yeah, that's right. +So er to look at it er another way,w I, I'll stop before I go back to the erm slides, because I want to show you a few on you know erm er the way that money's worked over the last forty years, but if you look at index-linked certificates, cos somebody mentioned that, are they worth having? +That's National Savings, and to my mind the only good issue they've got at the moment, and er once you get with index-linked certificates, they were originally the granny bonds that were launched er in the early er late seventies, early eighties. +And er they erm were there to provide additional growth on savings, and it was, it was the inflation, the R P I plus a b a bonus which equalizes out at three and a quarter percent per annum. +Notice, this is the sixth issue. +Yeah. +The fifth was better. +That's the one I got. +Yeah. +I mean, I, I did what I could in the fifth issue, but you just run out of cash, that's the trouble, but I mean the sixth issue is good. +Your maximum investment is now ten thousand pounds each. +Wouldn't recommend masses into it, but because it's no income potential, and it's not that flexible, you've got to keep it for five years to make it really work. +But if you do keep it, then the results should be pretty good. +Having r you see I've had clients saying to me well, I'm not sure about this one. +You know I, I like the other stuff, but this one's a bit iffy, you know. +And they'll quote to me that inflation's at two percent. +Okay, well you've got two percent plus three and a quarter, that makes five and a quarter. +And that it has to be paid before probate is granted. +So there'd be d issue, so it's tax free. +Four fi five and a quarter tax free, you've got to put an awful lot of money in the building society to get that sort of return haven't you? +You're thinking that the gross is round about seven percent. +So you think well is that a good bet? +I, I'd suggest that it is a good bet, particularly if you think that erm if we do get rising inflation, er in the next year we could be, I mean the projected figures are round about er, by the middle of next year, round about five percent. +This is from various investment houses in, in, in the city, so five percent plus three and a quarter, eight and a quarter percent, and I would bet any money that interest rates haven't gone up that quickly. +Y I mean you they might have risen slightly, but you won't be getting that sort of investment return, you won't be paying any tax, and you're guaranteed your money's absolutely safe. +And if we do get a period of rapid inflation, because if one looks back at seventy four seventy five, with inflation running at over twenty percent a year, stock market out of control, erm and er and er building society rates very poor, erm you know seventy four begins to look a bit like ninety four to me. +Erm but I mean obviously it's a different situation, and the Chancellor's still got some manoeuvring to do, but we could end up in, in rapid inflation again, because we haven't had it for ten years. +I mean I've the figures on here, I'll show you in a minute, doing absolutely brilliant. +For the last ten years, we've been able to retire and keep our living standards up. +I know it because I see people regularly that retired five years ago six years ago, seven. +They're fine. +No real problems if they've been sensible with their money. +But what happens if we get that sort of period again? +Er you see R P I linking on your pensions is brilliant, you know there's no, no question about it. +Nobody in industry has actually got an absolute guarantee, I mean even the British Telecom schemes said they'll pay, they'll pay the rate of inflation if they feel they can afford. +But that means at some point they may actually go below it. +Not likely, but it could happen. +So you're fully index-linked. +Now,d don't forget index-linking is not the same as salary increases, and in a time of rapid inflation, prices go up, salaries go up, and the government can interfere in any way it wants with the R P I index. +It can take factors in and out. +It can take in mortgages, it can take in property, it can take in other values, so that R P I is a very much a, a negotiable figure. +It's like my wife saying well it costs me a lot more at Sainsburys than two percent, you know, increase over the last year. +And, and that's true. +Er so it's a moveable index. +So when you're retired, you've got to think that you're not salary-linked, you're only R P I-linked. +And that's where these certificates are the only guarantee that I can provide which will actually say well if we get fifteen percent inflation in nineteen ninety seven, they will pay fifteen p percent inflation, plus the three and a half percent three and a quarter percent bonus. +So you can see it's a very very good contract. +It may not look it now, but I think it will be over the next five years. +At the end of five years, you've got the option er and you can er then extend the er into the erm er next issue if you wish, or you can go on the extension rate, which isn't usually good, or in index-linked certificates' case, they'll perhaps give you indexation, but no er bonuses. +So it's perhaps better to reinvest. +I mean the old index-linked certificates, when they came up I put them back into the fourth issue, and then the fifth issue and so on because the bonuses are better. +Only er National Savings are worth keeping your eye on, because the government's very keen to make a few shillings out of National Savings, and you might get some good issues in the future. +Erm so erm that's the one I'd recommend at the moment. +The fixed-r the fixed- rates really aren't worth going for. +So by the same token, I assume, building societies are also starting paying something over inflation rates,issued? +Yes, erm building societies I mean I think you're thinking about their equity schemes aren't you? +Erm yes. +Those are a bit, those are a bit of an untried er area. +I'm not stopping people doing it, because people ring me up and say should I do it? +And this is where you, the, the building society offer you er the rate of erm er return on the stock market erm and er a bonus on your account if it doesn't make the rate. +Er have you seen those? +Er Alliance and Leicester did one, and they, they're offered to investors in the building societies. +Just be a bit er bit, bit er wary of them in the sense that you don't know who's managing the fund, er because it's their money, it's not your money, they don't actually invest the money from you, it's their money they're investing. +And they'll give you the profit if they make it. +It's to keep you invested in building societies, only they, they're frantic because all the money's going out and they want to keep their erm their erm deposits up, so they're offering these schemes, and they are quite good, there are no charges as such, but er you'll get the value of the fund that they've made, or you'll get a say two or three percent bonus per annum on top of the er share rate, er if you keep it for four or five years. +So they're not bad value, but I, again I wouldn't overdo it, because we don't know what the schemes will actually produce, and if you're going to that I'd er most of the schemes are limited to five thousand minimum. +Erm, I'll have a look at some of the other er things that you can do with your money, cos time's getting on. +Erm this is the inflation figures I talked about briefly. +In nineteen eighty two, a loaf was thirty seven P and in ninety sorry eighty two, thirty seven P, ninety two, it's fifty four P and er I'm reliably informed by er my wife that you can actually get loaves less than that if you go to the er large supermarkets where they're discounting the bread to get you in the store obviously. +But that means that bread's not really gone up that much. +Er beer, er seventy two pence in nineteen eighty, hundred and twenty eight pence ninety two. +And you can see here the affect of er forty six percent increase in the price of bread, seventy eight percent on beer, eighty four on cars, and R P I has moved up seventy nine percent. +So if you're R P I linked, not too bad. +But those figures are tremendous compared to the figures I used to have, because we update these every two years, and the ninety ni eighty to ninety figures were poor, and the and worse than that between er er you know the previous two years. +So don't think that they'll hold necessarily. +Inflation, the effects on your pension, you've got the engineer on a level er annuity and the headmaster on er an index-linked annuity. +Erm er in other words, index-linked pension, and he's n virtually doubled his money between nineteen eighty and nineteen ninety. +And that means that er you know the indexation has actually worked very well. +Erm so if you're getting another job obviously, you've got to think that you may not need as much income, er if you're taking the early retirement well obviously you may be more income dependent, and do a personal budget, going back to that pro forma, if you spend a bit of time doing a budget, you will find it beneficial. +You'll know what you're spending, and where you're spending it, and you then control you p your finances a bit more accurately. +Cos when you're working, you don't really have the time or the interest in actually seeing where the money goes. +Er can you tell me please er how I can avoid a particular charge. +Erm I wanted to do a personal budget, so I went along to my bank and I said I want to close all the erm automatic payments that you make on my behalf. +Yes. +And they said, sure, that'll be thirty pounds. +Well don't you get a, a monthly statement? +Well, yes, but I wanted them to do me a list you see. +Oh I see. +And I thought thirty pounds was rather a lot. +Oh it is a, it is a, it is a lot of er money to pay, +Yes. +I mean usually you can identify them from your bank statement. +I'll, I'll do it free myself. +Yeah, it's a bit expensive +I was thinking if they would charge me fifteen, +Yes. +I wouldn't, it would have saved me a chore,. +Right. +But I thought thirty expensive. +Yes. +Yes. +The, the direct debits that you've been paying for years but you're not sure where they go to, that sort of thing? +That's right. +Yes. +Yeah. +So this is not to do with the price of eggs, it's to do with erm eggs in one basket, and er obviously er the basic theory with any investment advice is don't put all your eggs into one area er in one basket if you like. +If the ship goes down or the basket gets broken, that's what happens. +Mixing the metaphors there, but er basically don't take a risk on one company or one product. +And er keep a spread. +Erm, short-term investments, just a summary. +bank accounts, building society, National Savings ordinary account, investment account, er National Savings, which isn't bad if you want small amounts of money invested but er access is a month. +And TESSA. +Now you're all familiar with TESSA, aren't you? +You all know what TESSAs are? +Er Tax-Exempt Special Savings Account, from the, from the banks and building societies. +You can invest up to nine thousand pounds over five years, er rates vary with the society unless you're lucky enough to have a fixed rate. +And the return should be quite good because you're not paying tax on the, on the investment, if you cash early then you pay tax on it. +So it's a five year investment. +Er but if anybody's got TESSAs running at ma matur er er er retirement, I'll inevitably keep them going, cos they're normally half way through now, some people have made three payments with TESSA, there's only another two payments to make, that's only another eighteen hundred and then six hundred in the final year. +So it's worth keeping those going. +Er if you fully fund a TESSA at nine thousand, we'd estimate around eleven to twelve thousand back, and not the sixteen thousand that was projected at the top of the cycle about three years ago. +Erm Leamington Spa ought to have been shot for their TESSA advertising. +You know the people who rang me up to say hey sixteen thousand on nine over five years? +Not bad. +But of course they were quoting at the very top of Leamington's rate, and since then it's gone right down. +In fact Leamington got a few things wrong, because they've now been taken over. +Er, but erm er nevertheless, the, the fact is that the TESSA is a good investment, providing that you don't need access to your money, and you're going to get a tax advantage from it. +Erm, capital bonds, they used to be good rates, they, they've deteriorated really, National Savings certificates well I've covered index-linked, the only one I'd really say er isn't super unless you're a higher-rate taxpayer is the fortieth issue, which is paying under six percent, it's not really worth picking up for five years. +Gilts, complicated. +Anybody into gilts? +Anybody got? +Yes, you've got the Jersey gilts haven't you? +No,. +Did you buy yourself? +I bought three quarter percent +Right. +seven . +Right, you bought those through the National Savings stockrooms. +Erm yeah. +Now er i i if you're buying gilts individually, you've got to know what you're doing unless you want to hang on to them to the end of the terms, cos gilts are government securities, and they have the different rate, rates of return, different maturity dates. +And the only way to really run gilts if you're serious is to actually trade them. +And a trade, trade in gilts is, is just as complicated as shares, not for the small investor. +Now, I've got a retired accountant in Nottingham who spends his days trading gilts, but not what I'd want to do. +But he's got all the charts and he knows what he's doing. +But basically a gilt has got a fixed rate of, of value at the end and the beginning, so it's worth a hundred pounds day one, a hundred pounds day you know whatever,h how many days it's in force, if it's a five year gilt, it's worth a hundred, a hundred pounds then. +In between it can vary, depending on interest rates and the market. +So gilt traders actually s buy and sell gilts in order to make a profit. +And er Sun Life who're a, who, who er you know are favourite for er for er gilts management, er er were busy buying index-linked gilts about twelve months ago when nobody wanted them. +Cos th er index-linked gilts were po were we very poor, because against interest rates they didn't give you a lot of guarantees obviously, you know, interest rates were high, index-linked gilts were er already languishing. +But I think they'll come up well in the next few years. +But what they'll probably do is sell those before they actually reach their premium. +They'll probably sell the gilts on then re reinvest in other investments. +But it is complicated and I er mean really for the average investor, unless you're a non-taxpayer, because the in er the income from the gilts is gross, it may be worth er it may be worth a non-taxpayer holding gilts, and er getting a gross yield of maybe eight and a quarter, nine percent. +That's, that's fine. +But if you're trying to trade them, you come unstuck cos you, you've got to make all sorts of er predictions about interest rates. +Mind you you might be better than the Chancellor at that, but er +you know. +It's a difficult market that. +So let's have a look at the effect, effect on in on building society investments and other inflation the effects on it. +Erm, between nineteen seventy three er and er nineteen ninety one, reinvestment in building societies gave quite a good return actually erm gave four thousand three hundred and ninety eight return. +Er R P I was five seven eight eight, so in, in other words, R P I ahead of building society rates. +So in the longer term, building societies don't do well. +You've had five years of phenomenal results in building societies, they've been really exceptional. +But I think those days are now over and anybody who's been in building societies, there's now a feeling er that things have altered quite a long way. +Erm asset backed investment, well we've covered shares, investment trusts, P E Ps, property, gold coins. +Don't know much about gold coins erm I mean I suppose they're a tradable asset. +But er I've just finished Treasure Island with my daughter, that's as far as I've got. +Erm. +Er property, er very much a variable, you don't know where you are with property really. +I mean it's, it's, it can be a good investment, and maybe the time is now to, to go for it, but of course, it's er hard to release er your asset if it's a falling market. +Because people are finally trying to sell houses. +Investment bonds we haven't covered, and they are a variation of a unit trust really, but they're issued by live companies, and you can do other things with them, and they have got tax advantages. +One of the better ones at the moment are the with profits bonds, where you're guaranteed a re returns, rather like an endowment, if you buy it as a single premium again. +And they are quite useful if you've come across those from Prudential, G A, +er they're quite useful. +And good for income as well. +Er, comparisons on investment returns since nineteen forty five. +If you had a thousand in a building society and a thousand equities, you'd be a very happy man in nineteen forty five I would think, but if you look at what happens between then and nineteen ninety, the building society's written, risen by eight point nine times, and look at the equities, a hundred and eight thousand,er that really is stunning, you know that, that re return on equities. +But don't forget that those can always be in reverse, and if you look at the, there's a chart, which shows five year periods wh where shares didn't make any profits at all. +We're just getting to the end of that now, we'll be another mark on the er five year list you know between eighty seven and ninety two. +Well, you've probably lost or, or not gained on shares. +But don't forget that over a longer period, shares are bound to do better. +Because when there's inflation in the system, company values are inflated, company er profits are inflated, so companies go up with inflation. +So erm worth bearing that in mind. +Er, adjusted for erm the R P I, one thousand pounds adjusted on a building society would have actually lost you money. +Your thousand pounds would now be worth five hundred and ten, if you take the effect of R P I. +And er I like to think that if you'd bought a nice full-nose Morris in nineteen forty five, and you wanted a replacement in nineteen ninety, you'd have still got a reasonable Metro wouldn't you? +You'd have still got your wheels. +So in that sense, the build the, the equities have kept pace, but if you think in the short term, you'll always be out of, out of order with shares, if you're thinking of going in for three or four years, you you're likely to get your fingers burnt. +You've got to look at it at five years plus. +And er management through er investment trusts, P E Ps, er and er share portfolios, the best way of achieving er security. +Er this is just to show income from building societies during the seventy five to ninety period, and the yellow line shows a decline or at least a jiggly line, which just reflects interest rates, and the un unit trust income rising over that time is the orange line. +Just making the point that in the early years, your income will be less, then there's a crossover point, because the value of the asset grows, and so does the yield on the fund. +Er these are guaranteed areas, annuities, local authority loans, which used to be popular, pay gross, but they're not around that much these days, they're not that competitive. +And local co-ops sometimes offer good rates on, on fixed-rate deposits as well. +But they've all fallen foul of erm low interest rates at the moment. +So erm National Savings again worth, worth mentioning those erm deposit accounts not really up to much at the moment. +So annuities are very safe then, regular repayments, partly tax-free, but not available, once you've spent your money, that's it. +And you get part of your money back tax-free. +Er P E Ps I've covered. +And I just want to look at capital deployment here. +I mean in summary, I, I'd say that this is the sort of thing they'd look for in a, in a portfolio. +Some in immediate access, which is your building society, some back to back through either a an endowment scheme, or a P E P scheme where you've got the security of the annuity to back it. +Then some National Savings, possibly some income bonds, and then onto the growth side which would be bonds, unit trusts, shares, P E Ps etcetera. +So they're er the three blocks of er investment. +And I'd even go, I think really you've got to look at it as sort of immediate-term, immediate access,er medium-term investment, and longer-term investment over here. +Cos even National Savings cycle over a five year period, and what you want to achieve is money coming back into your hands regularly over that period so you can take another look at what you're doing. +So when I'm seeing clients mainly at the end of a, of a three year, fixed-rate deposit, again at five years when we get a National Savings maturing, and so on and so forth. +And really that should be er a secure portfolio that you don't need to worry about too much. +It should actually pull through all your need. +And on the building society side, that's your instant access fund,y anything you need in the meantime, if we've said that we want to achieve eight hundred a month income, and that's really the basic income, any holidays, any incidentals, come from this account. +And er you know we keep the income steady on the other two parts. +Erm, so if you're looking for advice, independent financial advisers. +Well, we deal with a wide range of different groups, and erm we've got to produce a best advice list, and er we try to find you the best contract available in the market. +That doesn't mean we're always right, incidentally. +Er but we try and eli eliminate the poorer companies, we try and make sure that we go for strength and security, as much as return. +And er that means adopting the current market. +Erm so erm if you're looking for advice, er try to get sound, impartial advice, free and without obligation. +And please get a written report, a proper written report. +If you haven't got one, it's not worth proceeding. +Because that written report is your evidence that they've actually taken information, analyzed it, and come back to you with a solution. +And if there is anything that you want to discuss with your adviser, positive or negative later, you can go back to your report, say well this is what should have happened, and can you explain what is happening? +So it's your document if you like. +Only I've come across one or two head teachers who've taken out things like A B Cs recently, and they didn't realize that they wouldn't get a lot of value if they cashed them early, you know, if they cashed them within two or three years. +Erm one chap thought he could cash his A B C before his pension, and he'd actually bought a massive amount of A B C business, to retire at fifty five. +And of course if he doesn't retire at fifty five, the authority or, or the school, his A B C's just destroyed his pension. +And er I mean I tried to indicate you know to him that he could claim against the company and get his premiums back, but unfortunately, there was no letter and no i indication, and the person was no longer with the company. +So it was his word against the company. +And all the product details were there, I mean you know that all the product details would be in front of you, but whether you actually read the small print, it's, is, is, is the er is the issue really. +And you can't get compensation for that. +I mean I doubt it'll matter in this case, it's not that serious. +But it was serious in the sense that he was given wrong advice. +So make sure you're dealing with a company that's, that's committed to what you know the market that you're in, that you're, you know, that you're familiar with the people that you're working with. +Independent advice er comes from major brokers, the banks and building societies have come out of independent advice pretty well, because they've decided that it's expensive and a hassle, cos we're regulated all the time and of course it makes, we've, we've got to analyze the products on the market, so we've got to pay people to do that. +So it is expensive, relatively. +But, the banks and building societies ha have found that people didn't want independent advice, because they didn't ask for it. +So now, unless you go in and actually bang on the counter, they'll give you the advice of their tied erm agency. +Er I mean Standard Life for instance tied with the Halifax, G A with the Derbyshire, erm endless societies have tied. +Er Bradford and Bingley I think have remained independent. +Erm, but there are other organizations as well erm and er you see Nat West, you know you remember the man with the wings who used to walk round in the advert? +You know. +Well he's taken his wings off now and joined Clerical Medical. +Er so er I mean the, the thing is that they, they, they a are in a position where they can improve their profits by er sectoring the operation. +You'd do it if you were on a bank executive and you said well only five percent of people ask for independent advice, why do we bother with all that lot? +You know. +Er just make it available, if somebody asks for it, they'll go and drag somebody up to have a look at you, and they will keep er er they've made it so they keep an independent arm, but it's not the major part of their business. +They are interested in volume, obviously, and that's what y that's what they're going to go for through their products. +No that's no problem, except that you must know who you're talking to. +Cos if you read adverts in the paper and things, you wonder who . +It says things like impartial advice, doesn't it for mortgages, erm in the Nottingham and the Derby paper, and then you read at the bottom it says erm an appointed representative of Legal and General. +Well, you know I h I hardly think that's impartial. +I mean, it will be, perhaps where they try and place the mortgage for you but erm I w I bet you they won't recommend anything but Legal and General when it comes to actually, you know, covering your mortgage. +So, er that's the er point to ra er to, to make there. +I mean we use Standard Life, we use Clerical, we use most of the major groups, erm but it's always a matter of trying to find the best contract at the time. +I mean, at the moment, three or four groups are actually pushing up their annuity rates again er to get business in. +So I'll probably use those three groups until they've got enough business and then they'll, they'll retract the rate, and I'll wait for somebody else to come along. +So you know that's the way that the system works and we've got the choice to, to actually make those decisions. +Erm it's er it's er entirely up to you obviously wh wh whether you take, where y you take your advice, but erm I would make the point that if you're retiring in the next year or so, erm best to take advice erm relatively early, you know maybe two to three months before you retire. +You've then got the time to look at your report, decide whether it's suitable, perhaps have another chat with your adviser, and then at that stage you're ready to go ahead. +Erm you know the difficult thing for me is when I'm working with people who've actually been given no notice at all, and that's happening with lots of organizations where on Friday you're suddenly told you've got no job, but your pension's available. +Er they may have had some inkling, but you know they might have applied for a timings, you know it suddenly comes. +And that's difficult, because you need a bit of lead in time to actually think it all through. +The mistakes are made in investment terms when you actually rush at something, and you decide to go ahead and invest before you've really studied all the options. +And then obviously once you've done that, you might live to regret it, in that erm the erm the investment itself might not be suitable for you. +So er take your time, and erm do l look at all the options in front of you. +And just one final word of warning, and that is to do with newspapers. +There's a lot of stuff in newspapers about you know erm er investments and what you can do with your money and get the P E P with one and a half percent discount, and all the rest of it. +Er but erm if you do er business through a paper, then nobody is responsible for the investment business that you do. +I mean, nobody's there to back you up, if you need a, if you need any assistance, or it's or the company's not really bona fide then you've got no comeback. +So I think you've got to look at this as er saying well, if you get external advice, at least you're covered and er I mean er if a, if a company's in difficulties, we perhaps would know before you would, erm that erm you know that we shouldn't really be investing with them. +So I mean what you're getting is the expertise, and the, and the assistance of erm an external adviser. +Erm, if you want to know how a advisers are paid, erm you know then I er would explain that under the terms and conditions of er 's business, we're actually paid erm a salary by , and er I obviou obviously get er you know a car to get about in etcetera, but the, the, when we place business er the er commissions that we get, generate are paid to , they go down to head office in Bournemouth, they're then used to give us our er our you know returns, advances and what have you. +So that's where the money goes. +But don't forget that that is not an additional charge to you. +So that erm I mean if I recommended a Norwich Union income plan, and you nipped into Nottingham to buy, the charge would be the same, whether you bought it from me or from Norwich. +And er the, the difference is that I will know, at any one time, whether Norwich are offering you the best rate or not. +And I can decide then on which o which company I'm going to use. +Erm so you don't lose out by using an adviser. +And where possible, we do try and pass on any discounts that are available to you. +Er I mean if a particular group's promoting a product which we're already using, then I might switch investment to that product if there's a big discount. +Because it's very competitive at the moment, and people are actually discounting charges quite regularly. +And where that's available, obviously we'll pass it on. +So erm er ongoing charges there aren't any. +We don't l levy any charges for mon er monitoring portfolios. +Er but we're not I must explain we're not discretionary managers. +Now discretionary management is a another thing. +I mean have you come across that? +That's where you actually sign over er the management of your whole portfolio to another individual, as you would with a share portfolio with a bank. +And that is a different matter, because you're then, they then make decisions on your behalf, and th they will actually move and, and, and reinvest er take commissions from some of those reinvestments and that's all going to them, and fine if they do the job. +But you've got to think carefully whether, about whether discretionary management is really erm what you want. +In the sense that you've got no control over your portfolio at all, and it's just invested and they give you a statement. +Er, +Harriet Mason's supposed to have discretionary advisers . +in charge of. +Oh right. +Oh. +It's erm +Yes. +Yeah, yes. +They're not supposed to handle their own shares if they're in a position to have inside information. +Yeah, well I mean, that's a, that's a difficult one, inside information, when you get down below the top ranks there are lots of people in the mid mi medium-ranks who would know about insider dealing, and I'm sure use it. +But that's something we're not party to. +Er but anyway, discretionary management can cost a lot of money, erm but you've got to weigh up whether it's actually worth it. +I think in the case of share portfolios, you need a lot of money to make it work properly. +And er you always want to look at the track record. +I mean my belief is that if Standard Life and M and G can't show me a profit on a, a good managed fund, I doubt that anybody in a another institute is going to do any better. +Cos er the, the people that run these funds are highly paid and highly experienced, and erm you know I don't think banks or building societies or any other institution is going to pay more, they're buying in their skills,the top offices. +I mean that's just view of it, erm and er I m obviously there are individual funds that perform very well, you know. +And when you're getting advice, don't forget that erm if it's, particularly the, a single company, they will be showing you figures which actually show their products in a reasonable light. +I mean, you would, wouldn't you? +Er so er I mean they're going to show you the seven year figure, maybe don't show you the ten year figure, because they don't look too good over ten years. +Erm so you can get those figures yourself from Money Management, and from er various erm newspapers, and you can actually check performances if you want to. +But again, that's the sort of thing the we'd monitor. +Erm, I, I'd like to thank you all for your participation this morning by the way, and I will give you out erm these reply if you'd like re erm a, an information pack from us, or if you wish to have a chat with me, then you can send in this, you can give it me back at lunchtime, and I can send it into the office, and they'll send you a retirement pack with an income planner and what have you. +So if you'd like one of those. +Does your service offer a service? +Er, yes it does. +Erm in that erm er we've got facility to review portfolios. +Yes. +what we're looking at again. +Yes. +Well that, that automatically comes up erm if erm you've got which are turning round, and ou our records will automatically show maturity dates etcetera. +But I usually arrange with a client over what's seen in two years' time or one year's time, whatever. +It's normally down to individual circumstances. +Are you on the phone?phone ? +Well yes. +I mean you'll find that my home number's on here and tha because I will advise you from home during the week, I'm quite happy for +for people to phone the home line. +Er but erm obviously I'll sometimes need some time to get back to you. +Oh sorry. + +Right do have a seat. +I think you're sending for all my things aren't you? +From er Hospital or what ever. +Let's have a look, they've all come back from +Oh lovely. +How about that? +I don't know what he's been up to, +No. +through the nose, but we've got them all back at any rate, so Where are we at the moment? +How are you in yourself? +Eh, I'm not bad I ah but I've I've improved all while I mean i have got, you know +Aha. +I can get about a bit, I'm not er hobbling as much, as l as long as I take my time I'm not too bad. +I'm getting, you know I'm getting there. +Yeah. +Good. +Without a doubt. +Good. +When they last saw you they they were actually quite pleased, weren't they ? +Yeah, that's right. +Yeah. +Yeah +There's definitely an improvement. +supple, good rotation, reflexes, knee jerks, muscle power and sensation, no visible wasting. +So er they're really quite pleased with you. +It's just really time, isn't it ? +This is it. +That's got you better and better and better. +Yeah. +Yeah, it's getting there +Er +I'm we're definitely getting there, it's just taking +a bloody long while. +what job do you normally do? +Er miner. +Face worker? +Er development worker. +Oh so all bits of everything and everywhere. +Yes. +Right. +Now what are we going to do about work, because it's now erm twenty fourth of August. +You've been off for a while. +Yeah. +We've got three choices, we can either say let's give it a go back at your original job, and it might be a bit job. +We can say we're going to have to keep you off for a bit longer yet. +Or we can say, why don't we push British Coal, let's see if you can get you back to work doing something different. +Before you +go back. +But I don't know what the opportunities are there. +None. +None at all? +No. +Well that's not a that that's not +Which pit are you at? +Yeah, they're a bit inflexible at times I find. +So +Very much so +Some of the others are brilliant, they do all sorts +Yeah. +of things +But 's not that way inclined. +No, oh well. +Never have been. +Oh well. +We'll have to we'll have to +They're very argumentative little +Yeah. +buggers. +I'd of thought you you won't be ready +from from the latest report. +What are you like first thing in the morning? +Terrible. +Stiff? +Yeah, +Okay. +I've got to work into it gradually . +Yeah. +What's it How long's it take it to get going? +Realistically? +Yeah. +Hour and a half. +That's actually not bad though, is it? +No. +That's certainly a lot better than you have +But +been. +Yes. +But there again. +After I've been up and about for +Yeah. +a while then it starts again. +That's right, yeah . +And I've gotta sort of sit down. +It's +Yeah. +fits and starts, I've gotta +Yeah. +vary it between getting about, sitting up, standing up, sitting down. +It's we it it's I mean some days are better than others. +Oh yeah. +You know, and +Yeah. +and the periods of of being good are getting longer. +Good. +Right, so +As I say I'm def definitely getting there, I know I am in myself. +Yeah. +I'm sleeping a little bit better. +Not waking up so much during night,wi +Excellent. +with pain and that. +I'm, I'm getting there it's just taking a long while. +Waterworks and bowels? +I'm alright. +No numbness or tingling? +No no. +I've +good. +lost a bit more weight, not a lot. +I've lost about another five pounds +Excellent. +Excellent. +Doing your exercise? +Yes yes. +All going the right way innit? +Yes I'm getting there, I know I know I know myself I'm getting there, it's just Like say, it's just taking a bloody long while. +Yeah. +Well I can't predict how long it's going to be now and y and you may find , +Well no, no obviously not +in another few weeks hard work and you'll feel very What I'll do is if I give you a note for a further two months, and we can Is your job safe? +Well, whose jobs safe? +But they're not muttering about laying you off if you're +Well they no not not now. +Well that's okay . +No. +No, I didn't think they would be. +So if I put, +I think they'd have a battle on their hands if they did. +Union are a little bit they won't let that happen. +Good. +Continues to improve with exercise. +Okay? +Yeah. +bit optimistic. +Well I am. +Yeah. +Yeah. +I've been trying. +I've been I mean I've been trying to give our a bit of a hand whenever i can, in +I mean I'm not. +I think I'm in way more than help but it it does me good. +Yeah. +You know, and I I I don't think it's it's +Yeah. +hurting me doing it. +You know. +Just a bit of serving and this that and other , +Yeah. +you know, just a Oh yeah, Oh . +Watch Watch the lifting. +Oh by I'm nothing +the lifting, just just reaching a can of beans off the bottom shelf and you +Yes. +Yes. +know that sort of +Yeah. +thing. +You know but it's it's doing me good I think , +Good. +you know. +I think so anyway. +Right, thank you + +Now let's have a look at some circuit diagrams. +have a few of those in. +Erm don't know if you want to look at some on the paper,have a look at some in the paper and see how you do on those. +Circuit diagrams, erm I'm usually okay with circuit diagrams. +Right, okay. +Erm just a bit of quick revision, don't think you need to work out the examples cos you're, you're okay at working them out. +You've got something like this. +Erm you've got a, a battery and you've got say er what? +Say six ohms on each of these in parallel and two ohms there and that's say a twelve volt battery erm could you work out the current in that resistor? +Tell me how you'd go about it, what sort of thing would you w where would you start? +They just want to know +There's the +the current in that resistor. +Er the current in that resistor? +In this bottom resistor one of the six o in fact tell you what, we'll make it awkward for you. +Here you are, we'll make erm we'll make that bottom one twelve ohms. a six ohms, so the three in parallel. +Right. +We want to know the current in that. +Current is resistance is equal to voltage divide by current, so it's Ohm's Law. +Right. +So where do you start? +Cos that's, that's a typical question that +Yeah. +they give. +A mixture of series and parallel, which you've done before but you probably need a bit of revision. +Erm I've gotta work out the current of the twelve volts first. +Right. +The current in the, the +first thing is work out the current in the whole circuit. +How are you going to do that? +So I have to work out what the entire value of these is. +The six o the six ohms and the twelve ohms. +What's the oh formula for parallel resistance? +What's the formula for series resistance? +That one's easier, the, you can +you add them, together. +Just add them together. +So the parallel one is the other one, the awkward one, +Yeah. +remember what that is? +Erm resistance one plus resistance two divide by is it? +Erm oh +You've got three resistors +Yeah. +Divide by resistance . +No. +I can't remember. +Okay, let's have a lo a little look at +It's an awkward one I know. +Right, the series is no problem. +We want to find, another little circuit here with R one and R two in it. +Right,voltage there. +You know that one, total resistance is equal to both in series. +Er erm resistance R one plus R two. +Right, so that one's no problem, R one plus R two. +This one is a bit more of a problem. +Just think about two first of all. +that's R one, this is R two. +Resistance there is equal to +Erm +and you were getting very close to it, +Yeah. +with the formula, so think about it for two. +And just sort of write down a few expression and then think ah that's not right or yes that's +Resistance of one divide by resistance of two, no. +Just have a, have a scribble and see what it looks like. +I can't honestly e erm +Oh. +I, I have the feeling that it helps you to see it written down +Yeah. +and for you to then actually have seen it sort of write it down rather than for someone just calling out to you. +I don't know, do you agree with that? +Or +Yeah. +not, but it is better that way. +Okay look what they say and if they've got a diagram of . +Erm five, this one. +And we definitely don't want that one, do we? +Volts in atoms. +So this is the sort of thing we've got. +Two circuit elements I think we need the fire on today. +Oh they're showing how to derive them, which you don't really need. +just sort of scribble something down, even if you, even if you don't think it's right. +I, I can't think of it because that +Erm +er +because of w what's . +What I'm trying to do is trying to get it the way it will be in an exam so, cos in an exam you're +Ah. +going to have to start from somewhere, so +Haven't I honestly can't remember. +That's as far as I could er +Okay, what are the b write down any other things that you can remember about erm I mean turn that over, you can remember Ohm's +I can't remember anything. +Law. +Yeah, I can remember Ohm's Law. +Okay write down Ohm's Law, and that's, when you, when you sort of pull things out of your memory it, your memory is usually all in blocks of links So +Oh God. +Four. +Right. +Er +Think, think about Ohm's Law in terms of what current is, okay now, good. +Now are you certain about that? +Yeah. +Good. +So you can look at that, not just sort of little symbols er not really meaning much but we're going to look at what happens to the current. +If you make the voltage higher, it'll keep the resistance the same, what happens to the current? +Er if you took voltage +So so let's say you've got a light bulb. +No, I just wondered if you make the voltage higher and +Yeah. +the resistance the same the current goes up. +Current goes up. +So you, you can sort of think about it. +Get a, get a twelve volt car bulb and start it up at twelve volts and wind the voltage up. +You +Okay . +leave it till about sort of thirty odd and pow, the current's going up. +Okay? +I if you put, if you make the resistance, keep the voltage the same, you make the resistance higher, what happens to the current? +Keep increasing the resistance for the same voltage, what happens to the current? +Er if you keep increasing the resistance of the, what happens to the current? +Er say it again, I +So we've got, let's think, think of a +Yeah I know I, I just want to say it +specific example +again, I keep on, as I'm thinking +Okay. +over it again. +So the voltage isn't changing, you don't +You +need to worry about that. +It's a steady pressure trying to push that through, and we increase the resistance, we make more resistance +Less current. +So less current, +okay? +So just think of resistance as sort of something that stops the current, and as you increase it the current gets less. +So those are both the right way, the V is on the top, because that's the more, the bigger V gets, then the bigger the current is going to get. +The R is on the bottom because the bigger R gets, the smaller. +Right +Mm. +if you have R ten times what it was in the pres the previous one, you'll now only get a tenth of the current out. +Yeah. +Okay. +Make, make the resistance a hundred times what it was you'd only get a hundredth of the current. +Make your voltage twice what it was, and keep everything else fixed, you'll get twice the current. +So that's, that is the way that most people find is easiest to remember Ohm's Law. +You don't have to remember all of them, cos if you remember one you just need a little bit of maths to work out the others. +Erm so that's one you can remember on your own, you can work it out, you can write it down. +What about erm power? +And erm the, what, how would you work out, think of a practical example, how would you work out the wattage erm if you know the current? +Erm the wattage if you know the current. +So you know I mean this is, okay, let's say you haven't got a clue, you can't work out what it is so you think oh alright, I'm stuck. +Well +Yeah. +let's get something practical, fan heater, let's say it's about ten amps. +It's probably getting on for thirteen. +Let's say it's about ten amps so which way round would it go? +Erm we've got I equals V over R, doesn't help there. +And we've got this one for wattage, what's the wattage? +Well the wattage of a fan heater is about what? +Er let's say it's about two point four kilowatts. +Mm. +Right. +Two point four kilowatts. +That's the wattage and the current, +Er +fan heater, say around ten amps. +I +Yeah. +mean you, you know these things, you know roughly what the wattage of a +Yeah. +fan heater is, you know roughly what current it takes. +And you know what the voltage is +Yeah, two forty. +Two forty. +So what's the tie up between those? +Er these are actual values, something you know, so you're not dealing with a, a weird isolated concept. +Ten times two forty. +Right, so it looks as if +Current times voltage. +looks as if watts is equal to the voltage times the current, the current times the voltage. +And it is. +So that's a way of not relying on remembering, cos you've got so many little squiggles you've got to remember, not just in physics, in chemistry and in everything else. +If you tried to remember them all as just these equations, you'd be very easily getting confused about which one was which and you'll just get your head cluttered with all sorts of stuff and so that way something that you know, something you can bring it back to. +So watts is V I, now this is a common question that you get. +Erm let's say a hair dryer is rated at erm er let's make it a telly. +T V is rated at a hundred and twenty watts, right? +Mm. +How big a fuse would you put in it? +Right. +Okay? +That, that's how they'd word +Yeah. +the question. +So how would you go about that? +How would you think about that? +Right. +Watts is equal to voltage times current. +Right. +So it's a hundred and twenty I'll write the equation down. +A hundred and twenty equal to two forty, now erm +If you don't know it, current is the one we're trying to find out, you just leave it as I. +So you've done is rewritten your equation, +Yeah. +filled in the ones you know. +And the one you don't know is still there. +So now you've got your equation. +Yeah. +That's m almost done the problem. +All you've got to do now is a little bit of maths to +Right. +Two forty a hundred and twenty plus V times it by oh have to divide it by, so it would be er watts over voltage is er +You do it, it doesn't matter which way, whether you do it +Yeah, yeah +that way or not, but +it'll make it easier. +. +Okay. +okay? +So it's a half amp so what sized fu and they would probably give you erm, are you going to use a three amp, a five amp or a fif or a thirteen amp fuse? +Yeah. +And once you've worked it out, you can tell. +Now that one sort of came out quite easily, some of them will come point eight amps, or two point +Yeah. +four amps or things like that so, but that's, that comes up quite a lot, that sort of thing. +So you're okay on that you, you've got from thinking oh I'm stuck on the other, I've nowhere to start, +Yeah. +y I mean you know quite a lot about electrical things, practically +Mm. +you can, you can do them and you know what fuses to put in, you know what you're doing. +So use that knowledge and bring it in don't keep it. +Don't sort +Yeah. +of leave it outside on the exam and think ooh it's squiggles time now, I can't remember which squiggles go on top and which are on the bottom. +Bring in +Mm. +your outside knowledge, use that and then you're not relying so much on, oh no I've got more and more formulae to learn, more things. +You can work it out and you know if you get it, even if you're not sure of the original formula, if you get it upside down, you can look at it, this is no good. +The more I increase the resistance, the more current is getting through, oh it +Mm. +must be the other way round, cos that's not right. +Okay? +So going back to the parallel, have you had any thoughts about it? +Parallel +Resistance in parallel. +I honestly can't remember what it was. +No, okay. +Okay, okay. +I can't, I can't +forget about that for the mo +I did know it. +You did, cos you were doing +Yeah. +them very nicely. +Erm what's the sort of real shape, it's not just you it's everyone sort of doing GCSEs at the moment, erm I'm getting this quite a lot. +They say, oh I did about five examples of this, got them all right, no problems straight, but now I just haven't got a clue, don't know where to +Yeah. +start, what to do or anything so, you need a little bit of practice at doing them for, for revision and then it, it's not nearly as hard as when you first learnt, it pulls it out of your head again and then sort of puts it back in a bit more settled down and easier to retrieve. +Erm I don't think I have got any written down here for you to have a look so I'll have to write it down for you erm stuff about Stanley knives. +er chemistry, chemistry, chemistry and chemistry. +One two three four chemistry books there,physics erm let's have a look if Ohm's Law's in, we can find anything about him. +. No it hasn't got any Ohm's Law, it hasn't got much about electricity in that at all. +Er have you got any notes on it, don't mean get them now, have you got notes on what you did on resistors in series and in parallel? +Erm Yeah. +I probably +Okay. +have somewhere. +Okay. +Buried in some +Buried, buried. +in piles of paper. +Have you got your text books, with you? +Yeah. +So you can look it +Yeah. +up. +Cos I don't, I don't want to do much of, I know you you want me to show you. +Yeah. +But I want to do so much of +Yeah I, I even remember +It, it's very se +looking them up and +Right. +them and everything. +Yeah. +But I cannot remember. +I remember the teacher showing me in school, as well, how to do it and I just, I can't remember +So +how to do it. +when you find out, you must try and think of some way that y can make you to think of it. +Have it like this. +Say you've got erm I mean think of elec electrical wires,like pipes. +Yeah. +Okay and if we put perhaps a water tank here and the water's trying to get out and we've got these two big pipes, go through one big pipe and one little pipe. +What we're trying to do is ref replace those three +with another pipe. +Now would it be bigger than. +let's, let's look at it this way, erm with a small pipe so much water gets out, okay? +Small pipe is offering a lot of resistance to the water so that's a sort of fairly high resistance. +A bigger pipe, more water goes through offering less resistance. +If someone said oh we don't want two pipes it's a bit messy, take them out and replace them by one that had the same resistance, that lets the same amount of water through, what would you replace those by? +I mean would it be bigger or smaller or what? +Just sort of talk about that. +Er +It's just water. +if it was water and you wanted more to flow off? +You want, want to get the same amount, I mean we've got a certain amount of water coming through that pipe, +Yeah. +and a certain amount coming through this pipe. +Yeah. +But someone says oh this is a bit messy having these two pipes, couldn't we just have one pipe that did exactly the same job. +Now would it be a smaller pipe, a bigger pipe or what? +Bigger, than both of them. +It would be bigger than both of them. +So it'd be perhaps a little bit bigger than this big one cos the small one wouldn't make a lot of difference so perhaps it would be that, that big, or something. +Now a bigger pipe, has that got more resistance or less resistance? +A bigger pipe has got m more resistance. +It's, less. +Less resistance. +Yeah. +Yeah. +So +so if we get two resistors and we put one there, say that's a hundred ohms. +Mm. +Mhm. +And we put another one here, say fifty ohms. +Right, this is low this is this is letting a lot through, this isn't letting so much through. +If we replace them by, instead of those we're just going to have one resistor. +What it's going to be like, roughly? +I mean is it going to be a thousand ohms, two ohms or what? +Just a guess, not, no calculations, no formula just sort of your common sense, what would you think about that? +Now a hundred and fifty ohms, okay that's more resistance. +That's letting less electricity through. +Think of one at a time. +Just cover up the hundred ohms, let's take it out of the circuit. +Right, all the electricity is going through the fifty ohm. +quite happy with that, running all their motors and stuff. +And then somebody puts another piece of wire in, I'm not saying how much resistance it is, but somebody puts another piece of wire. +Are you going to get more current going through or less? +Mm more current. +Right. +You're going to get more, it's just as if we had just the big pipe from the +Yeah. +reservoir, and someone puts a little pipe on as well. +Okay, you don't get much more but we're going to get more. +Yeah. +So you said here to replace the two pipes, the sort of medium pipe and the small pipe you'll have one that's a bit bigger than the big pipe. +Yeah. +We're doing the same thing here, we've got a, a low resistance letting a lot of current in, letting a lot of current go through. +Mhm. +And then somebody put another one in. +Okay it's only a small pipe, it's got a high resistance, it doesn't let much through, but it does let some more through. +Mm. +So have another guess at what the resistance is going to be. +Er +In terms of sort of like +er I haven't a hundred +Right. +and fifty ohms. +A hundred and fif +Oh! +Fifty ohms, +Right. +Well a hundred and fifty means, a hundred and fifty is high resistance, not +Yeah. +much gets through. +The problem with this, the, the, the problem where it's hard to see is cos we're dealing with an inverse. +Yeah. +As the resistance gets higher and higher the current goes down. +But what we're doing is as the resistance gets lower we get more current through. +So with fifty ohms we were getting a cer let's say with fifty ohms we were getting about ten amps going through. +Mm. +Right. +Somebody puts another resistor, another, not a resistor, conductor cos it's going to let some more get through, no matter how much resistance it'll still let some get through. +Yeah. +So let's say now, when we put that one on as well we're getting eleven amps through. +So it was ten amps with just the one, just the fifty ohm and now it, I mean this isn't right but just a, let's say that with both we're going to get about eleven amps. +We haven't changed the voltage, we've got more current going through. +So what's happened to the resistance? +Erm +Got Ohm's Law, current is equal to voltage over resistance, well we haven't changed voltage, we've kept that fixed. +Yeah. +But now we find that we've got more current going through. +Well we know we've changed the resistance so did we make the resistance more or less? +We've got more current going through now. +We made it more. +Less! +Okay, it's on the bottom, so if we had ten times, we made it ten times as big then we don't get ten times the current we get one tenth. +Yeah. +This is the, the awkward bit, that it's all upside down. +Yeah. +It's an inverse relationship. +So we put another wire on, don't think of it as resistance, think of it as a conductor, it's going to let some more current through. +We've got so much going through the big wire, put another little wire on as well. +Some more'll go through that. +More current going through,changed the voltage, so it must mean the resistance has gone down. +Resistance has increased, so have another guess, just a guess. +Don't try and do any sums on it and think ooh I'll square one and add it on half the other. +It was, it was without this hundred on it was fifty ohms. +Yeah. +We put an extra one on, what's it going to be now, roughly? +Just a, you know, just a guess. +Is it going to be more than a hundred? +Or what? +Less. +I mean it's not going to be a hundred and fifty, because a hundred and fifty is +It's going to be less than fifty. +That's it. +So that's it, that's, that's more or less, that's the end of your analysis now. +Yeah? +You've worked out what happens, it's going to be less. +Whatever the resistance of this comes to it's going to be less than fifty ohms. +Yeah. +Okay? +Erm if it's more, well this is ridiculous because we were getting, that means getting some more current going through there has sort of changed everything else, so it's going to be less than fifty ohms. +Well then if you weren't sure of your formula, if you tried the formula, who's been doing that? +Right. +S +Er oh yeah I forgot to ask you. +Would you like a drink, soft drink? +I +I +can't really make coffee because no one else is here and it'll waste a lot of time. +Right, erm no thanks I'm fine. +Yeah. +I had a coffee. +You have one though if you want. +No it's okay. +I had one just before I came out, +Yeah. +so I'm alright. +So we could try different things, there's this one over it comes in somewhere doesn't it? +Yeah. +So let's try one over resistance equals one over R one plus one over R two. +Why does this, do you know what one over resistance is by the way? +Erm it's one divided by resistance. +Have you heard of conductance? +No. +Well if we were, you, you've got the lawnmower outside, a sort of electric Flymo or something, and you want to get some current out there to it, to run it. +Erm you don't get a piece of string, +Yeah. +what would you get? +An extension, +An and copper is a good +Conductor. +So you look for a conductor +It's a conductor. +I mean if you were being really dangerous and you wanted to die soon you could just sort of get a piece of bare wire and +Mm. +run it out there and run it off that until it touched something. +So you're looking for a conductor. +A conductor is something that electricity goes along and there's a properties of metals called its conductance and it was, it, we might, might be better thinking of, thinking of its, its conductance. +So if you think of pipe as how much water it can conduct. +Yeah. +This one say can conduct two gallons a minute. +Right? +And this one can conduct twenty gallons a minute. +Yeah. +Right. +So how much will th if you want to replace them by one pipe how much will this pipe have? +Twenty two gallons a minute. +Twenty two gallons a minute. +This is the pipe's conductance, if you like. +Mhm. +So we just add them together. +Well this is conductance, the inverse, one over resistance is conductance. +So the conductance of this circuit is equal to the conductance of that bit plus the conductance of that. +So it's just going to come to one over fifty plus one over a hundred. +Okay? +What does that come to? +Erm one over fifty plus one over a hundred is er one, two over a hundred and fifty. +Oh got to find +So that's +Three over two hundred. +Three over what? +One hundred? +Yeah. +Yeah. +Okay? +So let's think of that as, okay. +Two over a hundred plus one over a hundred,. +So the conductance is one over R is equal to that +Yeah. +Right? +Which comes to, so one over the resistance is that so the resistance is turn it upside down, a hundred over three. +What does that come to roughly? +Er three, thirty three? +Around about thirty three ohms. +Does that +Thirty three and one third. +Yeah, excellent. +Point three recurring. +Thirty three and a third is better actually. +A nicer way of putting it. +Thirty three and a third ohms, does that sound about right? +Yeah that looks about the right sort of thing, cos it was fifty ohms and we've put, I mean it's not that much small you know it's not going to let, it should let about half as much through as that lets through this shouldn't it? +Yeah. +So if this was letting, if this was letting ten amps through then this one should let about five amps through. +Yeah. +Yeah. +Does that seem reasonable to you? +If +Yeah. +fifty ohms lets ten amps go through then a hundred ohms will let half as much, it'll, will let five amps go through. +So we've got the circuit like that originally, ten amps going through it. +Put this one on and s oh we get another five amps through there. +So altogether we'll have fifteen amps and the resistance is now two thirds of what it was. +Yeah. +Two thirds of fifty. +So we're just adding the conductances again, and if we did it with three of, we had sort of three pipes +Mhm. +and say well think of the conductance, don't think of it as resisting and stopping the water, how much can it get along and get through? +How much can it conduct through? +Conductance, one over resistance is equal to R one plus one over R two plus one over R three. +as many as you like, keep putting lots and lots and lots of extra wires on. +So with that +you should be able to do that problem yourself. +Now what I want you to do is not look at that. +I'll leave it with you but don't look at it. +Just try and remember what we were doing but the pig about resistance is it's one over and think ooh we're all into weird fractions and everything seems to work the opposite way round to the way you'd expect it. +So get out of that, change your model, change your way of looking at it. +Don't think of it as something resisting electricity, think of it as conducting, helping it along. +Erm you know a lot about electricity, if I'm going to use this little thin wire. +Yeah. +And I'm going to say right, I'm going to run my fan heater off that, +what would you say? +You're mental. +It's not going to conduct enough, you want a better conductor. +You want a big foot thick copper conductor, that'll get a lot of it through. +Get something with a good conductance, not something with a high resistance but something with a high conductance. +So if you use that and just have a look at this problem here. +Find out what's the current through the twelve ohm resistor, through in fact through each resistor. +Mhm. +Okay? +Is that all right, it's very scrappy +Yeah. +you can see what we mean there. +You've got two six ohms, a twelve ohm and a ten ohm, and twelve volts there, so the first thing. +What's, how, how're you going to go about the problems, sort of talk through the stages. +Right I'll work out the current I'll work out the resistance +Right. +the combined resistance of these and then I will add it to this resistance. +Okay. +I'll work out the total current flowing through the whole erm circuit +then I'll work out the current through in through each of this here. +Okay. +And whatever w the current, what the current is when it leaves. +Right. +You can work out +Er +you can work out the current through this one, pretty easily, when you work the +Yeah. +total resistance. +So that's not going to be much problem. +Erm work out what the current is when it leaves. +Mm. +Well think of this as a sort of water pipe system if you like. +six ohm pipes. +And there's a twelve ohm which is a thinner one because it doesn't let as much go through. +Okay? +Here's some sort of strange manifold, okay? +And water comes in there, goes out there and then again out of the, another manifold again. +Yeah. +And then it goes into another pipe. +goes into this other resistor here, where it goes and then it flows round again. +So what happens to the water that comes in here? +It gets split up and then goes, most goes +Split up three ways. +that way. +Right. +A little goes that way and then a very small amount goes that way. +Right. +So a lot of it's going to go through the big pipe and then what happens to it when it's come through the, the, these three pipes? +It pushes +It joins up again. +And here's the other resistance. +So you were saying about finding out how much current goes through +Er yeah. +So what, hmm the water comes in here. +Let's say the water comes in here at sort of ten gallons a minute. +What rate does it come out of the end here? +Ten gallons a minute. +Right. +Pick any point, there say,or here +Mm. +or there. +How much water's flowing past in a minute? +Ten gallons a minute. +Right. +When it +splits up and goes its separate ways we're not getting ten gallons a minute through that pipe or through that or +Yeah. +through that but in total we are. +So it's the same water going all the way round, it's the same current going all the way through here, so if we've got ten gallons a minute of electricity coming in there, say ten amps, +Yeah. +yeah? +It splits up, some of it will go there, there, there, as you say the least of it will go down this high resistance. +Then it all joins up again and goes back in, goes along here, so everything that goes down there, the ten amps goes through this one again, and back into the battery. +We'll close this switch cos otherwise it's a very simple answer. +What's the current in there? +Non cos the switch is open. +Does that help you to sort of understand it better? +Yeah. +What, what's happening? +Think of it, this as water analogy. +It's all flowing round, it all starts off here, it all gets round and gets back again, the battery's like a pump, pumping it all round. +Resistors are like pipes, if you work with a resistance it's always one over so forget about resistance, deal with conductance. +I mean you still write one over resistance but don't think of the resistance part of it, think of the new one over as a separate entity. +This is, this is how big your pipe is. +Right. +A big one over R is a big conductance. +Big pipe big diameter pipe. +It lets a lot through. +So I think you can sort that out, pretty easily now. +a factor tree on the back as well. +As I say, don't be tempted to have a quick glance at that before you start the problem. +Try and +Yeah. +just leave that unless you are totally stuck, and I don't mean sort of five minutes, have a good sort of maybe ten minutes or say about ten minutes of playing with this. +Don't just think oh I don't know this, oh I can't do that, I don't know what the formulae are. +Work out what you do know. +Like on this one, you didn't know what the resistance was exactly, but you worked it out, well it's going to be less than, your first thought was add it together of course. +A +Yeah. +hundred and fifty. +That's because you, you want to, everyone does, you want to think in terms of conductances, so it's hard to get over this problem, so don't get over it. +Think of conductances, every time you think of conductance just write one over R. Erm so I think you can do, do it without working but if you need to it's there, so I'll leave that. +And I think you need to do a bit of revision on the firm basic +Yeah. +stuff there. +that stopped? +You're going very slowly, I'll these batteries there's the problem, there's little diagram to sort of think about it in terms of water. +Mhm. +And there's, there's the answer, but don't look at that if you can. +I won't. +Okay, I mean +it's up to you but +Yeah. +it's, I'm just trying to help +It helps +I'm not trying to make it hard for you, I'm trying to work out what is useful for you, cos it's no good you just sort of more or less copying it out. +Energy now. +Erm power er different types of energy, how many have we got? +Different types of energy? +Er er chemical. +Okay. +Erm kinetic energy, potential energy er electrical energy +Okay. +Just finishing off on electrical energy. +How do you pay for the electrical energy that you use? +How many kilowatts you've used . +kilowatts. +Mm. +You turn, you turn a three bar electric fire on, say. +A big fan +Mm. +heater. +That's a three kilowatt heater erm +so you've turned your kilow three kilowatt heater on for an hour and I'm gonna charge you,le let's say, thirty pence. +Okay? +Mm. +Charge, you've turned it on for ten hours, how much will I charge you? +Three pound. +Yeah, why? +It's right, why? +Cos it were using more +It using it's us +using it at the same rate but it's going for a longer time. +Yeah. +So you don't just pay for kilowatts that you use, what do you pay for? +Erm +Erm you know it cos you've just told me the +Yeah. +answer. +You've just told me exac this is what you did. +Mm. +I said three kilowatts. +Yeah. +And it's running for ten hours. +Mhm. +You multiplied them together. +Yeah. +Didn't you? +Kilowatts +Per hour. +times hours, it's not per hour. +kilowatt hours. +Kilowatt hours. +Mm. +Okay? +And that's what we pay for and that's, when you want to work out how much a fan heater uses and you know, how long was it on for? +If you just flick it on and off it's going to use very little. +Leave it on for a year you'll get a bill. +Mm. +So the energy is kilowatt hours. +Kilowatts is not energy, it's the rate at which you're using energy, how quickly is this electrical appliance burning up electricity? +Erm three kilowatt heater it's really sort of running away with electricity. +Erm a light bulb is not using much electricity in a given time. +But if you leave a light bulb on for a year, it'll cost you more than leaving the fan heater on for an hour. +Yeah. +So it's how quickly is it using electricity and how long did you leave it on for? +So kilowatts is, is what? +What, what are, what are kilowatts a measure of? +Er thousand watts. +Right a kilowatts is a thousand watts and what is it measuring? +erm watts is erm er +It's an awkward one, +Mm. +And it's one that needs sort of a bit of thinking about, and again tie it back to the everyday things that you know quite a lot about, electrical appliances, things like that. +It's how much energy it uses, er +Yeah. +How much e energy it uses +Carry on. +It's which ra how m it's the rate at which it uses +The rate, that's it. +voltage. +The rate at which it uses energy, it's the rate at which it's using the energy. +So a three kilowatt fire is using it at a terrific rate, it's running away with electricity. +A er twenty five watt lamp in the fridge is using it at a very low rate, it's hardly using any electricity. +. So to work out how much energy you're using is, how quickly am I using up energy, well I'm using it at a rate of ten kilowatts. +Right, so that's a lot of kilowatts is energy per second or energy per hour if you like. +Kilowatts, watts, energy per hour. +Watts is actually energy per second but if we think of it in terms of hours cos we've bought by, by, by hours. +So to find out how much you pay for, how much actual energy has been used up, you think it, again going back to the water, if we have a big tank full of water and we're using it up, this time in terms of power, erm if we have something that's using up water at the rate of say six gallons a minute and someone's going to charge you for your water. +Well let's say you've got a, a water meter, okay? +Water meter, have you got a water meter here? +Don't think so. +Let's say your wa your water is metered and erm you've got a, a washing machine using six gallons per minute. +Right, you've got a garden hose running off your mains as well using, say,twe I don't know how much it uses twenty gallons a minute, something like that. +Yeah. +Right. +Erm if they're going to charge you for your water by how much you use, they don't just charge you twenty when you've got your hose running. +They say well how many minutes did you have it running? +Right, so it's twenty gallons per minute times, let's say you've got it going for ten minutes, ten mins and the per minutes and the minutes cancel out and the answer comes in gallons then. +Yeah. +You've used twenty gallons, that's how they find out how much you've used. +It's very similar Let's say we've got things called el let's say they're electrons. +Right? +I mean they're not but let's say they b big packets of lots of electrons so we're using things at erm let's say watts is equal to so many electrons per second. +Yeah. +And erm well let's, let's, let's just say a hundred watts is a hundred electrons per second. +And you wouldn't get a lot of heating out of a hundred electrons. +So, and they charge you for how many electrons you use. +And we've got this hundred watt thing running for twenty seconds, so oh say for oh fifty be sixty, for a minute, sixty seconds. +So, how much, how many electrons get through? +How many are you going to get charged for? +You're going to get charged for the amount going through will be a hundred electrons per second times sixty seconds. +Yeah. +Seconds cancel out and you're going to get six thousand electrons. +So six thousand electrons will go through and that's what they'll charge you for. +Okay? +Mhm. +And when they, when they define watts and kilowatts and everything else in terms of energy that you can understand, like erm horsepower. +Erm have you ever seen a moped with a plate on it? +Erm ninety, ninety kilowatts. +Something like that. +You know cars are rated in horsepower, normally? +Yeah. +Yeah. +They can also be rated in kilowatts and on mopeds cos the regulation allow sort of what mopeds sixteen year olds can ride and I think it's sort of something like seventy kilowatts or ninety kilowatts, it might be ninety. +They actually give its power in kilowatts, so there's this obvious equivalence between electrical and mechanical energy, so watts is not an amount of electricity it's a rate of using it up, it's a flow rate like gallons per minute. +Yeah. +Three kilowatt heater. +That's three thousand gallons a minute of electricity going through that if you like. +A hundred watt light bulb has only a hundred gallons a minute going through, okay? +It's a very +Mhm. +similar thing. +It's a, it's a flow rate, it's rate of using up electricity, watts. +So to find out how much you've used, you've got to multiply it by how long you've been using it for. +And the electricity people charge you for kilowatt hours. +Kilowatts, rate of using it up, times how many hours you've used it. +Okay? +Your hose pipe twenty gallons a minute, well you ran that for ten minutes say, so that was two hundred gallons we're going to charge you for there, and your six gallons a minute appliance here, you ran that for forty minutes, right? +That's a gallon per minute times forty minutes then cancel with gallons so they're going to charge you for two hundred and forty gallons. +And that's, that's +that's how your electricity was paying for it. +It's a, it's an awkward thing to understand this, power and energy, energy is the lumps of the stuff itself. +The gallons of water, the number of electrons. +But erm power is the rate at which it's being used up. +Horsepower is the rate at which energy is being produced or absorbed, usually being produced. +Kilowatts, the rate at which . +Erm now, moving on to other energy. +Physical +bit more easy to get to grips with the physical stuff +Yeah. +Erm still got power as a rate of doing work. +Car engine rated at fifty horsepower +Yeah. +or a hundred horsepower. +How much energy would it use up? +Well it depends on how long you run it. +I mean, you can have a an X J six running for ten seconds and it uses hardly any petrol. +Mm. +Little mini and run it for a year, run the engine ru non stop for a year and it's going to use quite a few gallons. +So the horsepower isn't actually telling you how much energy in total but the rate at which it's being used up. +. Erm now what about kinetic and all the other different types of energy? +Er kinetic, potential, chemical +How would you convert erm potential energy into kinetic energy? +In a machine. +In a machine, potential energy is something erm potential energy is energy something possesses due to its position. +Good. +State. +That's an excellent definition. +That's a sort of strict textbook definition, that, that's brilliant. +Er kinetic energy is the energy something possesses due to it's er movement +Okay. +That's it. +That's excellent, textbook definition again. +So potential is when it hasn't done anything yet, it's stored up ready for us to. +So so some examples of potential energy. +Erm say you've got a stone on top a cliff. +Okay. +And the that possesses be potential energy. +Er possesses potential energy +So anything that can fall down and go faster as it falls. +Yeah. +Erm any other form of potential energy? +N yeah. +Er if you've str if you've got trying to think, er can't think of anything, +Erm how do you start a car? +with a car battery. +Okay. +So a car battery has stored up energy. +How'd it, go through the whole process of how, of erm running a car. +Starting it every morning. +You get in your car and you start it every morning, you run around and come back, you start it again. +When you start the engine the battery store you, the battery which stores electrical energy +Mm. +by chemical reactions. +Good. +Erm when you start it you're closing a switch which star which starts the starter motor turning. +Right. +That in turn cranks the engine over and +Okay. +the engine fires and the starter motor then turns off. +Right. +Then, because the battery's used up energy the motor of the car turns the alternator +Right. +which puts electricity which recharges the battery. +Right. +Puts electricity back into it. +And then when you turn the engine off your battery's full and restored and you got to start it +Good. +etcetera etcetera. +Now, do you think, not now, but for sort of maybe for next time, or some time very soon, a little diagram, a little sort of flow chart if you like showing where, how the energy is changing from one form into another. +Sort of where it's coming from, so we've got chemical energy. +What types of chemical energy have we got in the system you've, you've juts been talking about? +Erm got chemical energy, electrical energy +Okay, what types of chemical energy? +Oh, the battery. +So the battery +And the engine where the +Right. +petrol we're burning. +And the fuel for the engine. +That's, now that fuel is producing energy. +Yeah. +Does your battery produce energy? +Erm it stores it, it doesn't produ +Good. +Excellent, it just store any, it stores energy, it doesn't make any itself and that's the point that they want you to make erm normal little throw away batteries that you have in your tape recorder or something, they produce energy,they don't have energy sort of put into them, chemicals and things. +But they produce energy and then they get clogged up, they sort of get blocked so they can't +Mm. +produce any more, then you throw them away. +But a car battery it stores up the energy so, okay, that produces energy, the fuel, erm what other types of energy have we got now? +Er potential energy and kinetic energy of the vehicle. +In the, in the c this car system that +Oh. +you've just been describing. +Oh, right. +Erm there's e electrical. +So electrical, erm what systems have you got there? +System erm +What does the +there's the alternator. +So what does the alternator do? +Er produces electricity. +Or converts it. +So it gets, electricity comes out. +What goes into it? +Er +What sort of energy? +Physical energy. +What sort of physical energy? +Er erm the engine turning +Right. +Is it moving? +Yeah it's, it's circular er oh +d you don't have to be that specific, you'd, really you'd want to know is it erm +It's physical. +is it fixed, is it sitting there doing nothing or is it moving? +Cos if it's +Moving. +moving it's kinetic. +Kinetic. +Okay. +So you've got kinetic energy going into the alternator and producing electricity. +What happens with the starter? +Er that uses up ele converts electricity into kinetic energy. +Electricity coming in,going out, okay. +So that's a, then you've got the other , you've got the, the . +What's happening there, you've got, fuel's making the engine go round. +So using little things like that, so just a little box to show this is the alternator, that's the energy for, this is the battery and this is the fuel. +Draw a diagram with, it doesn't have to be neat just sort of scrawl all over it and tat it until you get it to +Yeah. +the way you want it. +And then you just draw it out again so that someone could look at it and they could see the energy changes in front. +Yeah. +Starting up in the morning, the first thing you get in the car, start up, drive around, come back and park it. +And what's happened to the energy? +The energy changes? +Have you lost any energy? +What happens when you're driving along? +Erm what happens when you're driving along? +Er +Where does the energy come from? +The petrol, +So the big the thing that's providing everything, you take the petrol out, you won't go unless you're at the top of a hill, of course because it can +Yeah. +roll down. +So this primary source is your fuel. +Think about things when you go up and down hill. +Okay? +Why, what makes you use more fuel? +Erm +If you've got a lot of petrol and you're just like wasting it and you think oh, I'm going to use a lot more fuel in my driving today, what would you do? +Erm +Apart from keeping it +Yeah. +Erm drive up lots of hills and +Drive up hill, +Yeah. +so up a hill all day, you can use a lot more +Right. +Extra resistance. +Where would your extra resistance come from? +Okay you could drive with the hand brake on but you don't normally do that. +Erm +Where do +let pressure out of the tyres. +Right. +So there's, there's some resistance from +Air resistance on the car. +Right. +So if you want to really use petrol +you know drive along the motorway +Drive a Range Rover. +and just, yeah. +Drive a Range Rover at about a hundred and ten along the motorway, you +Yeah. +fuel. +Yeah you can +I can see it sometimes. +see it on that Transit you used to run, as I'm going along I can see it's going down. +Can't actually see it move but I can see it if I look +If you look at it every ten minutes you notice it's +Yeah. +moved a little. +Yeah. +So air resistance is er is the big one. +Once you get up to speed that's, you're, it's like running through, have you tried running through water? +Yeah. +Yeah, it's like that. +Erm and your tyres, as you said the resistance ro and lots of resistance in all the, the bearings. +Yeah. +All the moving parts, I mean your wheel hubs get hot. +Yeah. +Erm your brakes every, what, what happens when you brake? +It's friction, brake pads squeeze the brake disk or +Yeah. +brakes pads push out on the brake drum. +Mm. +And what happens to the drum? +Gets hot. +Right. +If you've just come down a hill with your brakes on, +Yeah. +touch those and burn your hand. +So you got all this energy, this kinetic energy, when you're going downhill. +Yeah. +You don't want it you've got to get rid of it somewhere so you turn it to heat, and there's, every time you , whenever you're braking you're turning some of your kinetic into heat. +So there are lots of erm this is something that you know quite a bit about. +Mhm. +It's just looking at it in a slightly different way and trying, I've done some things there to show you a, a sort of a system to use, use your own if you like but I want to see what comes in, what goes out, every time energy changes from one form into another form. +And I mean think of say rolling back in traffic if you're waiting on a hill. +If you take your handbrake off and you're not quite ready to move off, what happens? +Your potential energy starts changing into kinetic and you roll back. +So as many examples as you can think of, of driving, where energy changes from one sort to another er where your energy is going, what's using it up, where it's coming from. +Erm +Yeah. +because they do, I mean they're not, they're not going to ask you that as a question. +could do, I mean if I was setting the exam I probably would,sort of, you know people know roughly about, I mean they're all going to drive cars one car. +so I think you could almost enjoy doing a little diagram like that, couldn't you? +Yeah. +And you'll keep thinking of extra little bits he ah there's another bit can go in there. +So your diagram will get very messy, it doesn't have to all fit together, as long as you can get all the main points of what's happening. +Erm have you heard of a fellow called Newton and his three laws? +Yeah. +Are you remembering them? +No. +Hmm. +Erm you know them? +Yeah. +You know his laws in parc you know sort of in practice, but we'll, we'll sit here and watch that pen until it suddenly jumps off the table. +It's not going to. +It's, it's not going to, it's just, it'll just stay there. +Why? +Why does, why is this book just sitting on the table not going anywhere? +Er cos that's stopping it. +Yeah, the table's stopping, yeah. +It's the normal state of things,just sitting there doing nothing. +Erm +Right. +that's his first law. +That if something suddenly, you know jumps up. +Yeah. +Something's done something to it, it didn't just +Yeah. +suddenly decide to jump up. +If nothi if you, you don't have an external force acting on something it just to remain stationary or, or carry on in a straight line and fixed speed, if . +Erm and the second law you've heard of force equals mass times acceleration? +Yeah. +now +okay,explain it to me in terms of, try and ex say if you were explaining it to someone who sort of wasn't very technical. +Mm. +Erm +Force erm is equal to mass times acceleration . +Erm force is some, is the power at which, with which something possesses so if something, if you drop a pen on hand +Okay. +when it hits you what you're feeling is the force of +Right. +the pen falling. +Right. +If you drop say that heavy ornament on top. +Right. +What hits you is the force of it, moving. +Right. +So that's a +a short sharp force. +Yeah. +Right. +They're quite awkward to deal with. +Yeah. +Erm can you think of any steady forces? +Er say I place it on my hand. +Right. +now here, it's +pushing down me. +pushing down. +And Newton's third law says, that your hand must be pushing up on it. +With exact just enough to balance its weight. +Yeah. +Cos otherwise it's be going down. +Yeah. +Okay, so if you turned your hand over the other way. +And then lift it up a bit off the table. +Now if you try not to +hold it quite so mu so much it'll push you down a bit. +If you're lifting it up too much it goes up. +Yeah. +So make it go, you push upwards with a +Yeah. +force that's more than its weight. +To let it come down, you push upwards but not enough force to hold up its weight. +So it's coming down a bit. +So his three laws, first one is everything just sits there doing nothing unless there's some good reason, basically. +Yeah. +The hard part of that is something going in a straight line, and the same speed has no force, no resultant forces acting on it. +Erm if you think of something, say a puck on ice. +Give it a flick it'll go for a long way because there's no, there's very little friction on the ice and erm the second one is the, the awkward one. +Force is mass times acceleration. +The third one is the, this book is pushing down on the table and the table is pushing up on the book. +And +Yeah. +the action and reaction are equal. +If the table was, I mean we've got to get the . +If we get a car engine +Yeah. +and put it on the edge of the table, what's going to happen? +The table can't push up +Yeah. +with enough force to stop the engine. +Mm. +So the engine will just sort of push the table down. +Erm so the, if you're just sitting there doing nothing, they're balanced. +And the middle one, force is mass times acceleration erm I'm going to give this a push, I'll give this pen a push,accelerate. +Going to give the table a push that was as hard as I pushed the pen and +Mm. +Well you see give your chair a push. +Can you feel that? +Hardly feel it, that's as much as I would, this is a very low mass, it's quite small. +You know come and, come and give my Mini a push, okay, come and give my camper a push. +Mm +Mm. +maybe. +Come and give my bus a push. +Or, or +Get lost +my yeah or my petrol tanker, full. +Yeah. +No, +No. +I don't think so. +Right so, someone on a bike, you've got a mate on a pushbike and you're starting a race and you give him a shove. +Yeah. +It really helps, it's, you know, a massive +starts him. +Gets him going. +But erm somebody in a tank, give us a push. +no thanks, it's . +Because the mass is so high the same force will have very little effect on . +If the mass is very very low, you get a very light little ping pong ball, give it a flick. +It'll really go. +You want to try and flick that,see if I can knock that little, one of those brass pigs, flick it and see if I knock it across the table, I'll take my own finger off, the pig'll hardly move. +So that's a sort, some understanding of mass times acceleration. +The force is mass times acceleration. +Erm can you think of any applications of that? +Erm mass times acceleration. +Erm yeah, when er rather than saying that something is a heavy mass and it move and it's got a good acceleration you can just say it's got good . +No I can't think of anything. +Think if you put erm a go-kart engine +Yeah. +in a petrol tanker. +It wouldn't get anywhere. +Erm it produces a certain amount of, it can produce a maximum of torque, a certain amount of force a go-kart engine. +It's enough, a light go-kart and a, a person on it +Yeah. +it'll zip about. +Yeah. +If you try to make that drag petrol tanker about, if you've got a suitable gearbox +Yeah, +So your engine's doing about four thousand revs and it's geared down like mad and your tanker is just creeping so you can hardly see +Yeah. +the w the wheels move, yeah it could, you could move it. +If it +Yeah. +Take a long time. +if it didn't lose a, you know, +Yeah. +a lot of friction in the gearbox and things like that. +But you could get that tanker gradually creeping along and moving. +The same force when it's applied to l look at this another way, what's the acceleration? +Yeah. +F equals M A. Divide both sides by M so the acceleration, this is a bit like our Ohm's Law thing, let's keep the mass the same, we're dealing with say a Mini, we're not going to change that. +Yeah. +Erm we give it a bigger force, what happens to the acceleration? +Erm it goes up. +Bigger force, bigger acceleration. +Well that's +Yeah. +good, that ties in with, you know, what we know actually happens in real life. +Now let's keep the force the same, say we've got a Mini engine providing us, just running it steady at three thousand R P M. Pushing out the same amount of force, keep the force the same, this time we put a smaller mass, we've got a Mini engine and you've put it on your pushbike. +Yeah. +Neeow, we'll get a much, what will be the acceleration, will it be bigger or smaller,get more acceleration or less? +Erm more. +Yeah. +So because the mass is smaller we get more acceleration. +Now if we make the mass bigger, put the same engine in a tanker, acceleration would be very small. +So it's sometime useful to think of it that way round, Newton's third law, rather than force is mass times acceleration,you're interested in the effect, now what did we get for this, what sort of acceleration do we get. +What, we want big acceleration and we put a big force. +Also if we want big acceleration we use a small mass. +Yeah. +Bigger the acceleration that you're very very light object. +or something like that. +Erm Newton's three laws come up erm and particularly that one, you questions +Mm. +on that. +Erm so his first one is about equilibrium. +no resultant force, no net force,all forces balance. +All forces are balanced. +Right . +All forces are balanced and, so no net force. +You can have forces but they all balance out. +And it will, either be at rest or in a straight line. +And a steady speed. +That's the bit that people fe find a bit hard to er to accept because in the real world it doesn't actually happen because there's always some other force like air resistance, friction, road resistance from your tyres and, and it grad it always stops eventually. +But if it's in space, you're in a spaceship and then you throw your pen out through the window. +airlock +Yeah. +preferably. +It just keeps going, there's nothing else +Yeah. +It's away from all the other planets and things, it'll just keep moving. +Er steady speed, straight line. +And that's, those three laws, that's what the whole of dynamics is built on. +The whole of the study of sort of moving things and statics, things like ladders leaning up against a wall, it's okay, it's interesting. +What would happen there? +Just lean a ladder against a wall and start walking up it. +Er +Why doesn why doesn't it slide straight away? +When you le when you leave the ladder up wall? +Because your force isn't worth as much when you're there. +When you're there it's erm it's liking more like a . +more like a . +What's stopping the bottom of the ladder from . +Which way is it acting? +The force is pushing that that way,that way. +So +What do you mean by the force? +The mass +Okay. +Right. +is +Right. +So what way is the frictional force acting on the bottom of the ladder? +It's acting on the floor, +on the base of the ladder. +Stopping it getting pushed. +So which direction +That way. +is it ? +That way. +Is it? +Oh the frictional force, that way. +Right, yeah, that's very common. +Yeah. +Marking the forces on going that way, the easy way to think of it is well what have you got to do to the bottom of the ladder to stop it from, put a piece of rope on here, right? +Put a piece of rope and, and stand on the end of it and pull. +And I've got to pull the of ladder in. +So there must be a frictional force here, pulling the bottom of the ladder in. +What's the top of the ladder trying to do? +It's trying to slide down the wall, so there must be something pulling it up the wall, frictional force +Yeah. +If you put the bottom on wheel, put some wheels on the bottom of the ladder so it couldn't fall because of the bottom, then it would still stay there because on the floor would be the bit of grip from the top. +Not nearly +Mm. +as good as the frictional force you get on the bottom. +But you do get some from the top. +And if I take the book away, and so the pen is trying to push the book over. +Yeah. +And the book is pushing back and the pen pushing on each other, so pushing out that way. +Yeah. +And it's, this is what the wall's doing, it's the normal reaction frictional force, keeping the, holding the ladder up, stopping it from sliding down. +There's a frictional force There's a different reaction. +A vertical reaction, and the horizontal . +Okay? +These are interesting if you're building bridges, but when it gets really interesting is when things start moving. +When things start moving,F equals M A crops up all over the place. +And it's very important so they always ask questions about it. +The understanding of it is that . +Acceleration, increase your force, what happens to acceleration? +Erm goes up. +Increase the mass, but keep your force the same, what happens to acceleration? +Goes down . +So mass if you like, is a bit like the way resistance was in the electric. +Yeah? +Yeah. +If you increase it erm then it's, it's slowly go bogs everything down if you like increase the resistance, you bog everything down. +So mass is a sort of a bit like resistance, it's resistance to acceleration. +Erm this piece of paper hasn't got much ac resistance to acceleration. +You can accelerate it very easily. +Er this house has got tremendous resistance to acceleration. +If I run +Mm. +at it and oh give it a good shove, I'm not gonna +Yeah. +I mean okay the brick might move a tiny bit. +Yeah. +But I'm not going to suddenly send this off into orbit, with a small +force. +So that's how that works. +Erm I'm trying to tie things together a bit as you noticed, +Yeah. +at the moment so that you can +Relating +you're not feeling that you've got lots of little isolated subjects and lots of little isolated topics and it's all building up and it's all a lot it is a lot, +Can I just answer the phone? +it is a lot, but they're all part of the same thing. +Yeah. +So how are you, how are you getting on with your revision? +Erm to be honest the revision getting a bit neglected it's, we've done most of our coursework, in most subjects there's coursework which in some subjects which has to be, not, doesn't have to be done before the exam but it's preparation, preparation work for the exams. +There's art coursework, there's a big economics project, +Okay. +there and there's C D T because for +C D T you have to do four sheets which you take into the exam. +And you use the information off that. +So +You will have some projects that can keep but +Yeah. +if you do them before the exam the +Yeah. +stuff that you learn for them is even better then the revision +Yeah. +it comes in and it's very, it's very useful. +Erm +Or to do the projects you're looking up things. +Right. +What projects, have you got any science projects that're not finished? +No science +They're all, all in. +The good thing about the science was it was all in school, practical +work. +Write up. +Mostly. +All your experiments are written up and +Yeah. +handed in? +Erm what about your maths, have you got any outstanding projects there? +No. +They're all in and done? +Yeah. +That's good. +English as well, it's, really it's just the +Oh that's good. +So you're really +Yeah, it's +I mean you've co I mean a long, you know not that long ago, you were sort of tending to put it off a lot. +Yeah. +Erm you've got you've got to +It's just the, the economic, art and the C D T which, it's not my fault it's just everybody's in +the same position, it's the, the teachers have tended to say, well you're not ready to do it yet or, we've just got to finish the rest of this book. +By the time we've finished the book, bang we're on top of the Easter holidays. +Okay so get, yeah get, get those projects in. +Erm I would, I think it would be very useful if you could make time in the next day or so, you don't have to spend long on this you know, if you just spent sort of +Yeah, it's just looking at it. +spent half an hour maximum, maybe twenty minutes would be, all it would take you just to do that one problem, while it's reasonably fresh in your mind. +Then you can forget it and the next time you come to do it, maybe in a month's time or er you've I remember now, the water pipes, don't give it resistance, think of conductance, think of one over,think of conductance. +This pipe conducts so, so many gallons, that so many gallons. +Conductance one equals conductance plus conductance three plus conductance four mm and so on. +And then wherever you've got rid of conductance think well they haven't given me that, they've given me resistance, oh I had to write one over resistance turning it into conductance. +Erm it's a big course, science, but a lot of it and erm quite a, I mean the chemistry alone or the physics alone +Yeah. +or the, even the +I think somebody said it's mad the way they try and +Yeah. +I think, yeah, it was my dad said, that the way they try to do combined science it's like doing a combined maths and English paper. +Yeah. +They're all so different. +It's +Yeah. +madness. +It er I don't think a lot of the curriculum at the moment and erm you, you ask most teachers and they just say, grrr, forget that you know ? +I think what he should have done +Ooh you've got to take two sciences, you pick which two sciences you're going to take, it'd be easier for the teachers and he would, well to do all three sciences in one exam is +It's erm, it's a mess really the way +I mean you might as well be doing art, physics and chemistry, than biology, physics and chemistry. +Yeah. +I think it's +I mean there is some overlap between biology +I mean if anything, the physics should go in with the maths exam, rather than chemistry and biology. +Big overlap on, especially on stuff like this about the dynamics erm don't forget that sort of first sheet I gave you a long time ago about +Yeah. +Erm so many people throw marks away because they don't put thing down things that are obvious. +What's, tell me what are the properties of hydrogen? +Er it's a gas. +Right, +Er it's flammable. +Right. +Er it's got one, it's +Right okay, good. +one +One electron. +Yeah, you're getting now into the deep chemical +Yeah. +properties of it. +Good, excellent that you know them. +Yeah. +But +It's a gas. +go for the really obvious physical properties first, and if you have a little checklist that you go through, bang bang bang for each one, +Doesn't smell and you can't +see it. +Right, right. +Now the especially if it is colourless or if it hasn't got a smell, you think ooh I'm not putting that down. +Yeah. +Right. +. What's hydrogen? +It's a gas. +What colour is it? +I don't know, I think it's colourless,well no good putting that down. +If it was yellow with sort of pink spots, that'd be worth putting down. +Mm. +So, so many people leave it out. +And you know losing marks when you describe properties. +If you don't know the chemical properties, you you might think oh I, zinc carbonate, describe zinc carbonate. +Have a go. +Oh zinc carbonate. +It's a powder. +Right, okay, it's going to be a solid, probably a powder. +You get erm doesn't burn. +Probably doesn't burn. +Right. +Erm soluble in water, er +May or may not be soluble. +Don't think it would smell. +Probably does not smell. +And then you get on to the chemical properties of it. +What happens with all carbonates? +What the property of all carbonates? +Say I've got some powder there that . +Look at this, zinc carbonate, or zinc sulphate. +I'd like you to just do a quick chemical test and let me know if that was a carbonate. +Erm . +Oh I can't remember. +You've got some acid handy, some H C +Oh. +L. +Oh . +I can't erm er when you mix it with the acid, er it produces a water , no that's er hydrogen and oxygen. +Go, yeah. +They all produce water and salt. +And salt. +A carbonate produces something else as well. +Erm hydrogen, a gas, er car carbon dioxide. +Right. +And +And that makes lime water which +Right, okay. +This is where we had some sort of car this is just looking at hardness of water actually, but this is, you've got the C O three +Yeah. +in there and that's where we're going to get our C O two from, leaving the O. Who cares what happens to that, you get, you know, a different looking powder left. +Well we'll get carbon dioxide off,so you might be iridium carbonate or ytterbium, we've got a powder which may be ytterbium car carbonate or ytterbium sulphate and you never heard of this stuff, ah carbonate carbonate and maybe, maybe ytterbium carbonate doesn't give off carbon dioxide with acid, but there is a very good chance it does cos all the others you've ever heard about do. +So just go for that I mean you see you're looking for the pattern, you can't know ninety odd elements and what the carbonate of every one does, what the sulphate of every one, what the nitrate of each one, bicarbonate, hydrogen carbonate of each one. +You can't learn all that lot. +You just learn general patterns. +Maybe if there are a few very obvious exceptions, you learns those as well. +Yeah. +Erm you know pi stuff in your head full of more and more facts and more and more equations and more and more you know Hooke's Law and Ohm's Law, Avogadro's everybody else +Every little +had a law and a name and a theory. +Yeah. +Erm so you just stick them together. +So that's something that only you can do really, that you, gather up the information, it's like, it's like having all your information in say a room this size. +And it's chucked in bits of pa on bits, different scraps of paper and it's all on the floor. +about finished has it? +Chucked all over the place. +Right? +And want to find something you've got to root through everything else, you've got to move everything else and then when you want to come and find something else, you've moved it. +Something else, you can't. +Yeah. +So you've got a lot of stuff up in your head, you might, oh you've got a terrible r memory, you can't remember anything, think of it, the thing is you can remember phone numbers and people's names, how to get to school, +Yeah. +erm people you've met, faces and voices you can recognize. +stuff up in your head. +Mm. +It needs organizing occasionally, maybe in the holiday is a good time to try and do it. +While you're doing your projects, sort of practise organizing your files for your projects and don't l don't, I think you can spend, you're good at finding excuses for yourself, I do the same thing. +I'm +Mm. +not, I'm not now, I've got over it. +But in a stage of my life I used to do the same thing a lot. +I'll do my sort of chemistry revision tomorrow,right well I'll sort all this out into these files, I'm going to put all my acids together in that one. +And by the time you've done that +Oh well it's too late now, right well +Yeah. +I'll do it tomorrow. +But at least I got this file sorted out. +Erm don't get into that. +you know +I to that. +Yeah. +Well you know the dangers probably better than I do but er you need a, you need a good bit of organization but much time is getting, getting the . +So your, your other subjects going okay? +Economics +Yeah. +and C D T and +I've got +your maths is good now isn't it? +Yeah that's +So it's just your science that you are thinking ooh and they are a lot of +I'm not really worried about it to be honest I'm not worried about any of them, I thought I would actually be erm I'm actually, we're under a lot of pressure at the moment but I'm not actually, usually when I'm like that it's all gone I tend to say well forget about it and you know run away from it kind of thing, +Yeah. +when you're under pressure, but I'm not +I'm just, I'm just doing it in my stride and and taking it +as it, as it comes. +Good. +If you've got, you know, if you've got too much pressure +Not worrying about it too much because that'll just make it worse. +It does make it worse and if you've got a lot of things that you're supposed to be doing, you just think well I can't do all of them. +If I try and do all them. +Now pick up the important ones, sort out your priorities. +Erm say if you're looking at erm say if and you think well I know pretty much about alternative sources of power, wind and water and all that stuff. +I don't really need to be Just so long +Yeah. +as oh that's good, I feel that they're now acid and alkalis, seem to be important, I've done I've put a lot of effort into them, maybe just a quick glance at those occasionally to keep up to date. +Use your, use your time, use your energy,so it's going to get you know . +But erm what are, what are you hoping to do after your exams? +Er try and relax and wait for them. +I don't know erm +Depends on what you get? +Yeah. +Erm I've started writing off, we've drafted a letter to write off to different colleges and sort of I'll write off before I do my exams. +Right. +Cos the answers, when they come back, are going to be, things like, depends on what you get in your exams and it's very, it's very bad stage in your life, it's er going to affect, but I mean the weather's going to get nice, and it you know, it's going to be great. +Everyone will be tempted to go out. +If you work now, not you know, not killing yourself but if you can put in a certain amount of work now and go without watching telly, sitting round, listening +Mm. +to music, going out with your mates. +Erm just to get + +We've been thinking over past weeks of the little account that we have in the old testament of the life of Ruth. +We've seen how she comes into the family first of all, gets er into contact with God's people. +Strange way, almost a devious in some senses. +See in the even out of failure, out of sin God works out his purposes. +Which is a good thing because that's what he's done in our lives. +That's what he's done in the life of the human race. +Out of failure he's worked out his purpose. +Adam sins. +Seems the whole thing is gone, what is God gonna do? +Destroy the lot! +Cast it away from him. +But God doesn't do that he brings about a programme of redemption and restoration. +And one hymn writer puts it, he says Eden's painful memories tell of blessings lost twas there that fell the beauteous crown I wore, but calvary's glorious victory, a richer crown has won for me. +And this is what God has done. +He hasn't redeemed and restored back to what we were, but he's gone way, way beyond that, in making us his children and bringing us into a very special relationship with himself. +And so we've seen how Ruth becomes involved with God's people. +And she makes way back with her mother-in-law Naomi, to Bethlehem. +We've seen how God provides for her, and brings again, brings her into contact with Boaz. +We're coming this morning, to to the climax of th , of this whole little narrative that we have, there in that book of Ruth. +The harvest has been gathered in. +There's much rejoicing in Bethlehem! +It's been a bumper harvest. +And among all the workers there's gonna be that sense of a, a job well done. +Everything is safe and secure now. +There's enough food and to spare for the coming year. +A satisfaction that as a community they've worked together to bring this about. +You see, it wasn't everybody doing their own thing. +But there they were working together as a community, there in the great communal fields, where everybody had their own plot, but working together. +And Ruth and Naomi who have returned. +They're able to share in the joys, they consider the great things that's happened to them. +And on the night of the final reaping, there's a great harvest supper, after which the men would stay guard around the great heaps of grain which were ready to winnowed early the following morning. +And for, Ruth it's gonna be a momentous night. +It's gonna be the night, it's gonna be, yet another turning point in her life. +She's, because she's gonna meet personally, come into contact in a far greater wa sense with a man who is going to redeem her. +You see, under the old law when a married man without a family his brother was to take on the widow and raise up a family in the name and in the memory of his brother. +And that was the responsibility of the first born. +You remember, er, that incident in the life of Jesus when, they came to try and catch Jesus out and they use this very illustration, they said somebody's died +and he's got no family, and his brother , he married his sister-in-law, and he died, no children! +And then somebody else married her! +And so it went on down till all the brothers in the family had married this lady and there was still no children, and then the er, they were posing the trick question to Jesus, well what's gonna happen in the resurrection? +So you see it was, it was something the then as a nation, it wasn't just a, a bygone law that had been given and wasn't used, it was something that was carried out on a fa , on a regular basis. +And this brother who married his late brother's wife he would also take over all that belonged to her, because, you know, all that, it was his dead brother's, he would take it all over, it would become his the land, the business the property, the mortgage, the debts they would all become the brother who now marries the th th the widow. +And his aim in doing that would be to be res , fully restore all that had been his brother's, for his brother's family. +It was called the right to redeem. +Now, if it was impossible for any reason for the next of kin, the oldest brother to do it, then it would go down to the second or on down the line, whoever was the nearest to become the kinsman redeemer. +We saw, was it last week, at our harvest festivals, we looked at the harvest time there, how God had led Ruth into contact, and into the field of Boaz, a man of great wealth! +A man who also honoured God, but more important than that he was a near kinsman of Ruth, or ra or rather Naomi rather, and there also of Ruth because of Ruth's late husband. +And, whilst we don't get the sense in,i as we read it in our English version, if you were reading it, evidently, in a Hebrew version, the ch , second chapter, you would find that there are four different words used in the Hebrew language to describe the relationship that Boaz had with Ruth. +There was, first of all, in verse one, it's just talks, I say, in, in our bi , in our English bible depending which translation you've got, it most likely uses the word kinsman throughout. +But in verse one, the word used there simply means a relative. +Boaz was a relative of her husband, a man of great wealth. +Now there's the introduction. +He is just a relative. +But as you go on into verse three, and it talks about this relationship again, er, it says he, she came to a field belonging to Boaz who was of the er family of Elimilech. +It means he was one of the family. +So you've got relatives that are there are, there are distant relative, they're still related to you, you wouldn't call them one of your family because th the relationship is so distant. +But Boaz was not just a relation by marriage, but he was erm one of Elimelech's family. +Further on down towards the end of the chapter, in verse twenty +it says there, that this man is our relative, he is one of our closest relatives. +And the word used there means, a very near kinsman. +See the progression? +A relative, one of the family, a very near kinsman. +And also, in that we , in that verse the first use of the word relative is that very near kinsman, and the second use, right at the end, one of our closest relatives, it's the word that is used there that means the one who has the right to redeem. +So Ruth, she's been led to one who was able to restore to her all that Elimelech had lost when he left Bethlehem. +Everything that had been lost he was able to restore it to Ruth. +The thing was though, that that claim could only be made by her. +She would get nothing until she registers her claim. +Now Ruth of course, she's a, she's a Moabite she's not a Jewess. +She doesn't know all the Jewish laws, and she knows nothing about this when she comes to Bethlehem. +But, she's counselled and advised by her mother-in-law, Naomi. +And Naomi tells her what to do and the procedure to follow. +She was a good Jewish mother, was Naomi. +And you can imagine her, can't you telling Ruth just what to do, and how to go about doing it? +The inheritance, her son's and her husband's inheritance it's gone! +It's lost! +And here she's telling Ruth, now what you've gotta do, she's she's got him, she's got her introduced to Boaz and she tells him it's a strange custom, one that's perhaps even stranger in our eyes today but there er after the party, the great harvest supper she's,the the they lie down in the barn together, they all just, they're tired it's, it's, the party's gone on into the wee hours of the morning, and there they just, they don't bother going home, they lie down there in the barn together all of them and she says to Ruth what you must do according to the custom is, you go and you lie at the feet of Boaz and wait, just wait, and wait for him to respond to you. +And there she lies down discreetly at his feet,se not knowing what's gonna happen. +And in the middle of the night Boaz wakes up and he turns and he startled to find this woman, lying at his feet and he says, who are you? +And Ruth, she'd been primed well what to say she doesn't say a lot, but she says the right things. +She says, I am Ruth, your very near relative. +But what on earth is Boaz gonna do? +So what! +That could have been his response. +What is his response gonna be? +And so, she waits eagerly to hear, is she gonna be rebuffed or is she gonna be accepted? +Her whole future depends on the next few moments! +But then, Boaz who it, said he was honourable man, he replies, very positively he says may you be blessed by the Lord. +I know you're a good woman, so don't be afraid, and I will do for you, and I will do all for you that you ask. +Said, I'll redeem you. +You see, that's what she, she goes you're a near relative, you're a kinsman, you're a kinsman redeemer, you can bring +the restoration of our property. +And he says, I'll do it for you, but there's a problem. +But leave it with me. +And the problem was very simple, there was a nearer kinsman. +There was somebody else higher up the line than Boaz and he must first be given the opportunity to redeem Ruth. +But if he's not gonna be willing, then Boaz it's his responsibility. +And hurrying along on this account that we have here, Ruth, the next morning, she's given a gift by Boaz a a a, a gift of er, to to seal what has been said. +A pledge that he would certainly not rest until he had fulfilled his responsibility. +And Ruth, then quietly returns to Naomi there at first light, excitedly telling her of all that has been happening. +And the next morning when they get up Ruth makes his way into the town, and he goes to where all the, the men sit and they talk, the city gate, and there he he searches out the nearer relative of Ruth's. +And he gives him the option, he offers to him the the right to redeem. +He said it's yours, and he spells out what it is. +You know, on the surface it's not necessarily a good bargain. +It's not necessarily a good deal. +He's gonna be involved in a lot of expenses. +Redemption was not a cheap process. +It wasn't just something you did lightly, you had to weigh it all up and consider the cost of it. +And so whilst Ruth and Naomi are resting and waiting back home Boaz is acting, and he sought out this man, he's determined now to see that Ruth and Naomi receive all that is there's by right. +And so quickly he makes his way to the gate of the city as we've said, and he gets this man he sits down with the te with the te , with the ten elders who would be witnesses and the kinsman arrives. +And it says in th , in, as you read through the record, as soon as he saw him he shouted with a shout that must have surprised the passers by, because , he hollered out to him he called out excitedly to him! +And so this near kinsman comes and he listens quietly to what Boaz has to say. +Ruth, a daughter of Naom , a daughter-in-law of Naomi the wife of Elimelech has returned. +Her husband Elimelechis dead and the daughter's husband is dead. +Naomi has no men in her family, her son's are all dead. +There is the right to redeem her land, the property, the possessions that is hers and you as the nearest kinsman have that right to do so. +Will you take it up? +Will you redeem? +And you can imagine the man as he listens, and he hears what is to put it crudely, on offer. +There's advantages to be se , to be had certainly and at first he seems willing, the extra land would be an advantage. +Well it will increase my land! +It'll be easier to work, it's always easier to work more land than it is just a small plot of land. +It will make me a man of of greater standing in the community, I'll be more respected, folk will have more deference towards me, I'll be a bigger land owner! +But you know there's always two sides to every bargain isn't there? +And the, whilst the one side was good there was the other side, and when he heard that the inheritance required that he marry Ruth, oh dear! +It ceased to be such a good bargain. +But, no Ruth, no land. +It was as simple as that. +And he says well I I'm sorry after considering it carefully I cannot go through with this transaction, I relinquish my right to redeem, lest I impair my own inheritance. +That's the only reason he gives. +Now it could possibly be that, he was already married, and would want the children from that marriage to receive all the land that he had, rather than it being spread out with with more children that Ruth was gonna have. +It may well be that he considered that it was not the right thing for him to do, after all, he was a good Jew and why should he marry a Moabite. +It wasn't the right thing to do. +He may simply not have had enough money to take on the extra land and the work as required for it. +Whatever the reason he has neither the spiritual character nor the material resources to redeem Ruth. +And it seems that in this whole area of redemption there are three qualifications necessary for redeemer. +First, the right to redeem on the ground of relationship, a stranger couldn't do it, it had to be a near kinsman. +Second condition was, the willingness to redeem even to the point of sacrifice. +And the third, the resources had to be there to redeem, there was a price to be paid. +And we see in this little story something far, far greater than the redemption of Elimelech for Ruth and Naomi we see here a picture of your redemption and of my redemption and those three qualifications, how they are met. +The right to redeem on the ground of relationship. +I am his because he created me! +I belong to him by the right of creation! +He has the right to redeem me, because he made me! +He's got the right to redeem you, because he has created you, he knew you before you were formed! +Then the willingness to redeem even to the point of sacrifice. +And oh, sacrifice he paid! +As we're gonna be commemorating and celebrating in a few moments the sacrifice to the very point of giving his own life. +We are redeemed not with silver and gold but with the precious blood of Christ. +That's the price of redemption. +That's the price our kinsman redeemer Jesus Christ had to pay! +The price of his own blood, given himself, that is the price. +And then the sor resources to redeem. +There was a price to be paid, as we've seen, it was the price of himself. +He gave himself. +Couldn't buy our redemption. +There would nobody else willing to redeem us, but he was willing to redeem us by giving himself +that was the price he paid for your redemption, for my redemption. +What a cost it was to him! +And how Jesus Christ has fulfilled that price, that redemption cost. +According to the law, going back to the narrative, the story of Ruth and Boaz according to the law, the widow she would remove the shoe of the kinsman who refused to redeem her and she would spit in his face because he had rejected, he had failed to fulfil his duty, his responsibility. +In this story, however, there's no such shame because Ruth has not been rejected. +The oldest, the first born if you like, the, the nearer one may have reje , may not have accepted the right to redeem her, but Ruth is not, has not been rejected because there is another kinsman waiting. +And you could almost imagine Boaz hoping against hope that the other kinsman would turn down the offer and so he delighted when that happened. +The shoe is removed however, as a testimony to the elders and witnesses that the near kinsman has refused his right to possess all that was Elimelech's. +And Boaz is now free to fulfil all the conditions and to take Ruth as his wife. +All his inheritance is gonna be restored. +And in front of all the gathered company at the gate of the city he makes his declaration, he says I have bought all that belonged to Elimelech. +I have belo , bought all that belonged to Mahlon. +I have belonged, I have bought all that belonged to Chilion. +I have bought Ruth to be my wife. +He completely fulfilled all that was required of him. +The law was satisfied to it's tiniest,mis , most minute detail. +And in your redemption, and in my redemption Jesus Christ has satisfied the laws' tiniest demand. +There on the cross he could say I've done it all! +It is finished! +I have redeemed you! +I have bought you back! +I have paid the price! +You are mine! +And God the father is satisfied. +As he looks down and he sees it all, everything has been done. +There is no area, there is no tiny minute detail of the law that has failed to be met with. +God has been, the father's righteousness is totally satisfied. +John the Baptist when he saw Jesus at the beginning of the earthly ministry of Jesus, he says behold the lamb of God who taketh away the sin of the world and on him was laid all of our sin all of our debt. +You could argue we weren't a good bargain. +We were nothing. +We were just rebels. +Sinners in rebellion against God! +But he fil fulfils his responsibility in the right to redeem us. +And he takes us, bad bargain that we are poor and miserable that we were, with nothing seemingly positive to offer, he takes us bag and baggage, he takes us with all our sin, with all our failure, with all our mistakes, he takes us with all that is,th th the clutters of our lives, he says you're mine now. +I have redeemed you! +I have bought you! +You are my possession. +I paid the price! +My father's righteousness is satisfied. +You belong to me. +You are mine. +And then you, going just one step further +in the marriage relationship it's not just that he says I have taken you, and all that you have now is mine, I take your debt and I discharge it fully, your debt of holiness to God, your debt of righteousness to God, he says I take it and I pay that price in full! +I discharge you, you are now free from it. +It's not just a case of him taking us with all of what we had and were and us belonging to him, but he says i in taking you to myself, he says I give myself to you. +You are mine, and I am yours. +All that I have is yours! +I've taken all that you've and to be honest there's not, there's not a, it's not worth a, it's not worth a light, it's you, I'm be getting rid of that straight away! +We're clearing that out! +I take all that you have and it's place and in it's place I give you all that I have and all that I am. +That's the relationship. +That's what Ruth the relationship that Ruth enters into with Boaz and that's the relationship that you and I have entered into with Jesus Christ he is our kinsman redeemer and he's rescued us he's taken us. +Like Ruth, we were strangers, we were aliens, we were outside, we had nothing to say, well I've got some right, we had no right at all but he came and he took us and he brought us in, and he has made us, who were nothing, something. +He has taken the off-scourings of this world, the apostle Paul said, those that were nothing, and he has made them into something. +So what are this morning? +Ruth was a foreigner, a Moabitess, a gentile! +The off-scouring! +Nobody would want anything to do with her! +But oh, what a difference when she's marries Boaz What a difference then. +Because she enters into all that Boaz has and all that he is. +You and I were nothing. +We're nothing, of ourselves we might have thought we had but it was of no value whatsoever, but he took us, he says, now you're something because you belong to me. +Now you're precious! +Now you're of value! +Now you're of consequence! +Because you belong to me. +All that I have, and all that I am is now yours, I invest it in you, it is yours. +Take it! +Use it! +Be part of it, enjoy it! +Because I give it to you freely because you're mine you belong to me, I've redeemed you I've purchased you. +What a transformation! +And the name of Boaz becomes her name. +She is no longer Ruth the Moabitess, she's Ruth, the wife of Boaz. +He has given to us a new name we've take his name we belong to him. +The country of Boaz becomes her country, she is no longer a foreigner here now she has a right to stay because of Boaz And we are citizens of a new country, of a new kingdom. +The possessions of Boaz would be hers. +And Jesus says, all that I have is yours. +The servants of Boaz would be hers. +The relationships of Boaz they're now hers. +And so for us the relationships +that, that he has, then become our relationships. +His children become our brothers and sisters. +We're part of his family. +And so Ruth, the one who has gone out as a poor glean and walking behind the reapers, hoping they would treat her kindly. +She is now joint heir with the owner of the fields. +Something she could never have dreamt of. +And you and I in our journey in life looking for what we could get , hoping to make it we've now been made joint heirs with Jesus Christ entering into his inheritance. +Let's come round the Lord's table now and remember who we are. +He has paid the price and we belong to him. +Perhaps you could sing that little song it's in this Songs of Fellowship, it's number seventy three. +Cover me. +That was something that Boaz did, there when Ruth was lying at his feet. +The exp , he he showed his acceptance of her by lifting his blanket and so , covering her, a blanket at his feet he covered her with and in this little song was, cover me, extend the border. +And that's what he's done isn't it? +He's extended the border of his garment and he's covered us. +Thank you. + +Right Mrs do have a seat. +What can I do for you? +It's the eczema again. +Oh. +Actually it started getting a bit better from when I telephoned. +Ah good. +What are you taking at the moment? +Are we putting anything much on? +Erm I use the Dipabase and the erm +Betnovates +Betnovates +Ointment I think. +Mm. +It was back in February I saw you isn't it? +Let's have a look. +And it really is very localized but that is quite angry, it's bubbly too and spreading, little finger. +But these two are fine. +Mm. +Mm. +Hmm. +This bubbly area. +You say that's . +Mm. +Yeah. +Right are you still using Betnovates And +Mm. +Dipabase And +Yeah. +it's flared up despite that? +Yeah. +Right,. +Okey-doke. +Hmm. +It's, it's a bit cracked . +It makes it very +As I say it's better than, it's a bit better than it was. +But it's still not that +No. +good is it? +No. +No. +Right, what we need to do is to hit it fairly hard and try to get it damped down as quickly as we possibly can. +Now don't get rid of the Betnovate have you still got some left? +Mm. +Okay. +Because as soon as it starts to die down you could probably go back on to Betnovate to keep it maintained. +And you may actually have to use Betnovate on a preventative basis every now and again. +Even if there's not a deal there, as soon as it starts it's slightly flaky straight in. +But what I'm gonna do is give you erm Dermavate Dermavate is actually more potent than Betnovate in the ointment form again to get the rapid penetration. +And once again, like Betnovate it's used twice a day. +And in a similar fashion you should use the Dipabase to keep the skin as soft and moist as you can +Mhm. +rather than letting it get dried out and cracked. +Dermavate is, as I say, it's more potent, it's probably not so suitable for keeping going with, but for jumping on top of things in a hurry, it's fine. +And I think that's what we ought to use. +Sometimes you actually need to use it under something, but it's difficult to use under things and part of the hand. +I don't know what you mean under +Well sort of under a dressing, or +Oh right. +under a bit of polythene, so it, it actually gets absorbed even quicker. +Mm. +But er I don't think we need to go to that er length with you. +I've still got those erm, you know, the little purple tablets? +Yeah. +That dissolve in water, +Yeah, to soak them. +Mm. +You could, you could go back on the Permitabs if you want. +It's not desperately moist, although certainly one of them is cracking quite a bit, and if that helps to dry it up and make it more comfortable then it's worth giving them a soak ten minutes a day. +Mm. +If you want to try those, you dissolve one in four litres of water which is er which is a little, just short +just short of a gallo yeah you need a bowl. +Yeah, but then you get the right concentration. +If you use too high a concentration, it irritates and it stains even more than the dilute stuff does. +But that may be worth a go if you've got some Permitabs left. +Mm. +But I think we'll use some Dermavate Have you got plenty of Dipabase +Yeah. +Good. +A big tub, yeah? +Mm. +That's fine. +Is it alright to put that on, you know, when it's broken? +The skin +Yes, you've got, you've got to be a bit careful with broken skin because if you put things directly on it, they tend to irritate. +It won't do the skin any harm particularly, but it can smart. +And +Mhm. +that might be one good reason for using the er the soaks. +The other think I'd recommend, is, using a fine pair scissors, is take off the scaly bits, the bits that stick out, cos they're the bits that catch +Mm. +and hurt and +Yeah. +pull the skin apart. +And once they're all sticking out, dead and scaly, they're redundant anyway, so you may as well trim it all down. +Neaten it up. +And you're less likely to catch your hands then. +Okay? +Okay. +I'm +going on holiday, a week on Sunday, and that was mainly why I wanted +Mm. +you know, to get sorted +Yeah. +Yeah. +before then, because +Yeah. +I think if I'm in +Yeah. +I'm going to Spain, it's gonna be even +Right. +more of a nuisance. +Yeah I think so. +Well let me give you two tubes just in case you need to keep going for er longer than we might think. +Okay. +And then you can take that with you. +So if . +The other thing about the ointment's, of course, it waterproofs the hand, which is handy if you're going into the Med. +Mm. +If you will get some er protection then from the horrible Med wa soup getting in and infecting it. +What about swimming and things? +I mean +Yeah you're okay, you can go swimming, it shouldn't do you any harm. +I mean in n things like swimming baths are chlorinated so they've got a low bug count anyway, so, so you'll be at low risk of getting anything there. +Right, so I, I use this till it clears +Yeah. +up? +Yeah, and then you you've got your Betnovate to keep yourself ticking over with I hope. +Mm. +Okay. +Some people need Dermavate to tick over with but er it's a bit potent to keep people going and going and going on so we'll see how you go with that. +Lovely. +Take care of yourself. +Okay, thanks. +Bye. +Bye. + +Over these erm past couple of weeks we've been looking at er some of the questions in the New Testament, we thought a couple of weeks back of the question that Jesus asked his disciples, do you think I'm able to do this and then last week we looked at a question that the disciples put to Jesus, that time when they came down from the mountain and they found the re , three of them came down with Jesus from the mountain of transfiguration and they found the other disciples with a man who and a, whose son was demon possessed and er they had been unable to help him and the man or brings his son to Jesus and Jesus delivers him and afterwards the disciples who had been so helpless put the question to Jesus, why could we not cast out this demon and this morning I'd like us to look at another question, we've got another one today and one God willing next week, er and the question is, is found in Luke chapter thirteen, let me just read a few verses, because of course it's, it's not just the questions, it's the answers that are important as well in Luke chapter thirteen, gonna read from verse twenty two it says in Jesus was passing through from one city and village to another, teaching and proceeding on his way to Jerusalem now that gives us a clue in that, because Jesus only ever went to Jerusalem apart from when he was a boy, he only ever went to Jerusalem once and that, after since that time, and that was when he was crucified, so Jesus was now on his way to Jerusalem, it was the latter days, the latter weeks of the life of Jesus, he was making his way now to Jerusalem and someone said to him Lord are there just a few who are being saved and Jesus said to hi , to them, strive to enter by the narrow door for many I tell you will seek to enter and will not be able, once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door saying Lord open to us, then he will answer and say to you I do not know where you are from, then you will begin to say we ate and drank in your presence and you taught in our streets, and he will say I tell you I do not know where you are from, depart from me all you evil doers, there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth there, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the profits in the kingdom of God, but yourselves being cast out and they will come from East and West and from North and South and will recline at the table in the Kingdom of God, and behold some ar some are last who will be first and some are first who will be last , so it's just that question then, let's remind ourselves that is put to Jesus Lord are there just a few who are being saved +now this particular question, this, it's a very solemn and searching question, it belongs to a group of three questions found in the New Testament which have to do with a matter of salvation, the first one is, we won't look up the reference and that for time this morning, the first one is the question that the disciples put to Jesus, who then can be saved, that's in Matthew, chapter nineteen, then there's this one in Luke thirteen, are there few that be saved and then that very, very personal question that was put not to Jesus but to Paul by the Philippinean jailer in act sixteen, what must I do to be saved, three questions in the new testaments about salvation, who then can be saved, are there few that be saved, what must I do to be saved, you know as Christians you possibly found yourself, asking yourself the, the same question that these people put to Jesus, why are there so few Christians, look about our own town, think of your own neighbourhood, your own street, think of the place where you work how few there are who are followers of Jesus Christ, how few there are who have committed themselves to Jesus Christ to of receive him as their saviour, who've have accepted him as saviour, how few there are when you compare it er to all the others who are rejecting him and er who are living their life regardless, how true it is that the great majority of people seem in, in this present day to have little time for God or for the things of God, they've got time for all sorts of other things, but God and his claim on their life is crowded out, how many there are like that, how few there are who have submitted to Jesus Christ and have received him as their saviour or so it seems. +And our Lord in the words that we've read gives a very solemn answer to that question in the, in those words that we read a few moments ago and his immediate answer to the question you know are there few that be saved, was to say many, this was in the following verse, many shall not be able to be saved, now does that mean that only a few will be saved, that there's only a few people who are gonna be in heaven that Jesus Christ came and died on the cross for about a handful of people, a small percentage does that what it, is that what it means, well lets look and see what the bible has to say, in Matthew chapter seven in verse thirteen and verse fourteen, this is what Jesus says enter by the narrow gate for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction and many of those who enter by it, for the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, but few of those who find it any way in the same book, in, in Matthew in, in, in chapter twenty two and in, in, in verse fourteen, listen again to what it says there Jesus is speaking he says for many a called, but few are chosen +but when we've read those we've got to look up what else Jesus said, remember a few months ago the passage we read from Luke thirteen and they will come from the East and the West and from the North and the South and will recline at the table in the Kingdom of God , they will come he says from all directions, we work and hold and these two scriptures intention, we've gotta compare one with the other, then we'll read also John in that tremendous vision in the book of revelation he would he says what he saw there, in chapter seven verse nine after these things I looked and behold a great multitude which no one could count from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues standing before the throne and before the lamb, clothe in white robes and palm branches were in their hands and they cried out with a loud voice saying salvation to our God who sits on the throne and to the lamb, a handful of people, tiny minority, John says it was a great number, a multitude which no one could count from every nation, from every ethnic group, from every tribe and, and, and, and race on the face of the earth there in God's heaven how grateful you and I should be, if we are among that number, it's God's grace, it's not that we've deserved it, it's not that we have been privileged by some genetic er process to have been born in a so called a nominally Christian country, it is all of God's grace, it's not what we have done or what we are, but we have been saved by his grace and just for a few moments this morning, I'd like us to from this question that was put to Jesus to follow on and if you like get five propositions from it, it sounds complicated but it's not. +Few there be, are there few that be saved, well what does the bible say about this, first of all it teaches abundantly clearly that all may be saved, God is not partial, God has no favourites, he doesn't love you more than he loves any body else, he doesn't love me more than he loves you or you more than me, he doesn't love you more than he loves ah any other racial group or any other ethnic group, he loves us all the same God so loved the world that he gave his only son Jesus Christ, here in his love, not that we love God says the apostle but that he loved us, the old testament profit reminds us that he has loved us with an ever lasting love, who, this was one of the hang ups that the Jewish nation had, they thought that they were the cats whiskers, he chose them, but he in fact didn't love them any more than he loved the, the hitites, the parasites, the gergasites and all the other ites, he loved them all the same, God is not partial in his love because he is love, if there was any body that God did not love he would actually cease to be God because love is not something that, that God does, you and I do it no matter how loving you are, or how loving you think you are, you are not love, you choose to love somebody and you love them, there are times when that love goes very thin sometimes, perhaps because of events that have happened, it can actually come to an end where that love dies, you withdraw your love God can't do that, God loves us as we've said with an eternal love, a love that will go on throughout the endless ages of eternity +and it will not in that sense make any difference to God love, make a lot of difference to you and to me, but it will not make any difference to God's love whether we spend our eternity in heaven or in hell, he will not love those in heaven any more than he loves those who are already, who will be punished for ever in hell, because God's love is eternal, it didn't start at Bethlehem, it didn't start at Calvary and it doesn't end when you and I die, as love is eternal, so God has provided salvation for every body and he offers salvation to all who will come to him in repent and and seine fe and except his salvation, you see when the Lord Jesus Christ died upon Calvary's cross he died to make salvation available for who, for every body, you see he didn't just lay your sins on Jesus, listen to what the old testament profit Isaiah says, there in that tremendous fifty third chapter, and, and in what it's in verse six,all of us says the profit like sheep have gone astray, each of us has turn to his own way, but the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on him , whether you and I reject Jesus Christ or accept him does not alter the fact that our sin was laid on Jesus the sins are the most awful person you can think of were laid on Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ paid the sins for, for, for, for men like Hitler, he paid theirs, the price for their sins, as much as he paid the price for the sins of somebody like St Francis of Assisi So God is not partial, it's clear from scripture that all maybe saved, he made salvation available to all in that same book of Isaiah in chapter forty five, verse twenty two, it says look unto me all the ends of the earth are being saved said the Lord, in Romans one sixteen Paul says I am not ashamed of the gospel because it is the power of God onto salvation to all who will believe, and the verse we've already quoted John three sixty, for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that who so ever believe in him should not perish, but have ever lasting life and Paul when writing to Timothy says he gives his own personal testimony he says this is a good and a faithful saying, it's worthy of every body accepting that God desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth, so it's quite clear that all maybe saved. +The bible closes there in Revelation chapter twenty two with that invitation, an invitation to a select you know, an invitation to all, there almost in the, in the last few verses, verse seventeen, the spirit and the bride say what come and let the one who hears say come and let the one who is thirsty come and let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost, the invitation is to all, so it's quite clear that all maybe saved, but it's equally clear, a second proposition that all will not be saved +and this is a solemn's teaching of God's word, the bible nowhere teaches the doctrine of universalism, that everybody's gonna go to heaven, it doesn't teach that, it doesn't say and it does not teach that ultimately every body will be saved, there are plenty of those around who'd teach that today, but the bible doesn't teach that there are those who will tell us that the sinner and the saint, the man who has no thought of God or no love for God and the Christian that all be gathered together on the final day, you all have another chance, Jesus never said that, the bible doesn't teach that, it's quite unscriptural. +Look what Jesus says here in Luke chapter thirteen, in verse twenty four, just let me pick a few phrases out, verse twenty four it says shall not be able in verse twenty five there was their cry Lord open to us and in verse twenty seven their response depart from me the result in verse twenty eight there was gonna be weeping it wasn't gonna be universal, they were not all gonna be saved, they were not all just gonna be swept in in the last day and didn't really matter, you're all buddies together now in heaven, not at all, this surely what Jesus says here makes it very clear that all will not be saved if at first we've already mentioned in John er no sorry verse further on in John three this done verse thirty six he who believes in the son has eternal life, but he who does not obey the son shall not see life but the wrath of God abides upon him , there's no suggestion there of being ultimately brought in to God's heaven and ultimately being saved, no it is the wrath of God abideth upon that person. +One could go on and pick many other scriptures, you know in the erm the New Testament not only were there those three questions that we mentioned earlier on about salvation, but there are three unanswered questions in the New Testament in Mark chapter eight, Jesus asked that question of which there is no answer,for what shall it profit a man if he gains the whole world and looses his sole or what shall a man or a woman give in exchange for their soul , Jesus didn't try and answer, there is no answer to that question, then again in, in Hebrews chapter three, er chapter two and verse three there is an unanswered question,how shall we escape if we neglect so greater salvation , and finally one other the apostle Peter, he asked the question in, in chapter fo , first apostle in chapter four and verse seven seventeen for it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God and if judgment begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God +again there is no answer to that question, simply because the answer is so horrific, it doesn't bear thinking about, but thank God all maybe safe, all will not be safe, but all maybe safe, God has provided a salvation that is available to all and if we are not safe it is because we choose to reject his s , his offers of mercy, so we thank God that all may be safe, but the solemn fact remains is that all will not be saved, well that leads us on to, to this third proposition, not only that the bible teach that all maybe saved, not only does it teach that all will not be saved, but it is quite clear that some will be saved whom we did not expect to be saved, we can be quite sure about that because judgment doesn't rest with us, way back Abraham says perhaps one of the most important statements in his life when he said there in, in, in Genesis chapter eighteen and we actually sang the wo tho the quotation in the song we just sang a few moments ago where he says will not the judge of all the earth be right, judgement is not yours and mine, that's God's prerogative and the other song that we've been, the song that we've been singing, that song by faber there's a wideness in God's mercy lets be honest we are so narrow with our mercy, our gra , our expressions of grace is so limited, but there's a wideness in God's mercy and faber says it's got the wideness of the sea, there's a kindness in his justice, which is more than liberty, David knew all about that when he was given the option, he said oh I'd rather fall into the hands of God than into the hands of men, I'd rather that God dealt with me than that my fellow man dealt with me, because with him there's mercy, with him there's grace, with him there is, there is long suffering and there's compa compassion and there's love, and faber goes on with the love of God is broader than the measure of man's mind and the heart of the eternal is most wonderfully kind, now that's all very well for the song writer to say that in a hymn and it sounds nice and it's, it sounds good but is there a scriptural authority for this, is it really true, or is it just a nice song that we sing with, it does us good because we feel it's a nice, there nice thoughts, well, surely we have it in the passage we've been reading that there is there is a mercy with God, there is a kindness with God in ver in verse thirty of that chapter behold some who are last will be first and some who are first will be last it's quite clear that some will be saved that we did not expect to be saved, and you can find example after example of this, it was a tremendous surprise to the onlookers when a very sinful woman annoyed to the feed of Jesus, it was a tremendous surprise to the Pharisee who rejected God, although he was such a good man, to find that the, er sorry to be rejected by God although he was a good honest upright man, and to find that the sinner was accepted by God, it was a tremendous surprise to the people when Zacchaeus who named you to be a sinner, an open twist there an evil man was saved by the Lord Jesus, you could save salvation has come to this house, it was a tremendous surprise when the law breaker who was dying on the cross beside the law Jesus was saved and went to be with him, with the Lord in paradise, it was a tremendous surprise to the disciples when Jesus preached the gospel and revealed himself to a gentile woman, who was an adulterer seven times over but he did and she was saved, it was a tremendous surprise to Ananias when the Lord revealed himself to +on the road to Damascus and saved him, but he did, it was a tremendous surprise to the Apostle Paul that the Lord had saved him at all, he never got over it, he called himself the chief of sinners, but God's grace, God's mercy had been revealed to him, you and I when we get to heaven are in for a few surprises, the grace, the mercy of God is far broader and wider than our imagination, we'll meet a lot of folk there that we didn't expect to see that leads me to a fourth proposition, not only will some be saved that we did not expect to be saved, but it's clear that others will not be saved who expected to be saved there's a passage in Luke thirteen, verses twenty five, let me read them again one the head of the house gets up and shuts the door you begin to stand outside and knock on the door saying Lord open up to us and then he will answer and say to you I do not know where you're from, then you'll begin to say we ate and drank in your presence, you taught in our streets, we know you Lord, we rubbed shoulders with you, we went to church, we experience those things, we knew the answers to the re to the questions but he will say I tell you I did not know where you are from, depart from me all you evil doers those words make it quite clear, here, there's words of Jesus, there's references to those who profess, to know the Lord Jesus Christ, but who do not in fact know him at all , they know bits and pieces about him, they've seen him, you know it's in its immediate context, they had seen him in the street, they had heard his teaching, there maybe those who had been fed by the, by the miraculous er multiplying of the loafs and the fishes, they had seen the miracle, some of them may have been healed by Jesus, they knew lots about him but they did not know him and he says I do not know you how many folk there are like this, they expect to be saved, perhaps because they go to church, perhaps because they've got Christian parents, perhaps because they read their bible, perhaps because occasionally when they're in trouble they prayer, they've been confirmed, they've been baptized, that, that they're good, they're honest, they're not rogues, they wouldn't do a, a, a bad turn to somebody, not deliberately, they're nice people but they, they don't know the truth of what it says in God's word, they don't know the truth of Romans three and verse twenty because by the works of the Lord no flesh will be justified in his sight for through the law comes the knowledge of sin, doesn't come the forgiveness of it, they don't know the truth of Ephesians chapter two verses eight and nine for by grace you've been saved through faith and that not of yourselves it's the gift of God, not as a result of works that no one should boast, for we are his workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works which God prepared before hand that we should walk in them, they don't know the truth of er, er of Titus, chapter three and, and verse five where, where the apostle Paul says there,he saved us not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to his mercy , how tragic it is to expect to be saved, to think you're going to heaven and in the end to find that you're not saved and Jesus says they'll be many like that in that day. +On that final day there will be many like that, little earlier on in the book of Titus in the first chapter Paul says in verse sixteen they profess to no God, but by their deed they deny him +and all of this leads natural to the final fifth proposition not only does the bible teach that all may be saved, not only does it teach that however that not all will be saved, not only is it true and clear that some will be saved and we do not, do not, do not expect to be saved, not only is it quite clear that others will not be saved, who we expected to be saved, but finally it is quite clear that no one will be saved except by God's way, and God's way of salvation is very simply by repentance and faced. +We have already read some words from Isaiah, let me just turn you back to Isaiah again, this time to chapter fifty five, verses six and seven. +Seek the Lord while he may be found, call upon him while he is near, let the wicked forsake his way and the unrighteous man is thoughts and let them return to the Lord, for what's gonna happen, for he will of compassion on him and to our God for he will abundantly pardon those words were very quoted from Acts, chapter sixteen, when that Philippine jailer said Lord what must I do, sir what must I do to be saved and there Paul timac believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved this is God's way by repentance in faith that's presented in Jesus, he is the only saviour, not your works, not my works, not our good deeds, not our religious observances, he is the only saviour, did he not say himself I am the way the truth and the life, nobody comes to the father but by me. +Not only is Jesus the only saviour but he's also a presence saviour not for the future or the passed, but he is there now and he says now, Paul to the Corinthians now is the acceptable time, now is the day of salvation, not to be put off, not to wait until you're older until this is settled and till that's done and you've had this experience or that experience, now is the accepted time, he is the presence saviour, he is not a saviour for you tomorrow, you don't know what tomorrow will bring but he is a saviour for the present for now, also he is a complete saviour in Hebrews seven twenty five he is able to save forever, those who draw near to God since he always lives to make intercession for them and finally not only is he a complete saviour, but he will actually save you, not the person beside you, don't worry about that he will actually save you, there in Romans chapter ten, thirteen,for whoever, for whoever will call upon the name of the Lord will be saved and so the invitation's to you and it's to me, it's to us as individuals, are there a few that's gonna be saved. +In a sense that's not the real question, that's not the important question, the really important question as far as I'm concerned is will I be served and as far as your concerned, will you or are you saved, well it's, it's up to you, it's up to me because he will save you, forever who will call upon the name of the Lord will be saved. +Let's close shall we with a song of, of commitment really, it's number four hundred in the er songs of fellowship and were gonna sing it to the first tune, oh call for us I believe, but let's look at it again. +We know also the son of God has come and has given us understanding so that we may know him who is true and we are +even in his son Jesus Christ, he is the true God and eternal life. +Right that's it, fine. +Let me just give you a little illustration that might help, you know in thinking of the erm the fusion of the divinity, the divine nature and the human nature, erm is it Clarke Kent, is that the guys name on television, you know the character, you know the guy that walks around you know he's the boy next door type figure with glasses and all the rest of it, he's no macho figure that and then in a transformation take place and woof goes flying through the air doesn't he, what is he, he's Batman isn't he +Superman +Superman is I don't know erm, well same difference any way, but you see this is it, he's not, you know, in that story, in that, in, in, in, in that sort of nonsense thing, he is not the same character at both times, he hasn't got, when he's walking along the street as Clarke Kent he hasn't got the ability to whoosh through the air as Superman he's Clarke Kent, not so Jesus, he wasn't Jesus divine one moment, Jesus human the other but they were perfectly married at all time from his, from the time he was, he's conception took place, so he wasn't one thing one moment, you know and one thing the next, but there it was a perfect marriage if you like, the two, I was gonna say becoming one so that they were invisible, you couldn't say of that's it that's the human nature of Jesus, that's his diviner it ju , because the two were perfectly married, they were fused together so they really they became one. +A couple more re verses er in Two Corinthians, five fifteen, and one John chapter two and verse two. +And as you die broad that they wish +Right so, you know, there are those who would teach that Jesus he would die for our sins and he's forgiven us sins, but only those who come to him, Jesus died for the sin of the whole world, for every man, woman, boy and girl that has ever lived or ever will live, he died for the sin of the whole world, not just for those even who lived after his death, that's why it talks about in the Old Testament people like Abraham looking for that day, and so Jesus who in, when he died, because he's eternal, so we've got the problems with time, God hasn't got problems with time, he's eternal and so his sacrifice, the sacrifice of him on the cross was effective for Abraham as it is for you, it was as effective for David as it was for Paul otherwise Abraham would never of had his sins forgiven because what happened with all the sacrifice with all the little lambs that were killed and all the goats and all the rest they only acted as a covering for sin, didn't take them away, it covered them, what for, until the moment when Jesus would come and would take those sins away and so when you think of David's sin, his adultery and his murder, how does he get forgiven for that because Jesus died from the cross and he takes upon himself David's sin and he takes upon him Abraham's sin and Noah's sin and Adam's sin, just as much as your sin and the person who will be born in ten years time their sin also, all our sins er as Gloria just read there from, from one John to two they were all of him he has died for every one, well that's his humiliation, hurry along quickly now his exhortation, the period from Jesus's resurrection onward is referred to as to the, as the state of exhortation, now what does that term mean, well as Jesus according to his divine nature has always been, he was always every where, now in his human nature, before,be , sorry it's not, it's not on that one, but before he, he came to earth, he was every where, he was God, he was, he was omnia present that means he was every where at the same time, but he takes upon himself he's su , he's, he's human nature and he takes upon himself the limitations and when Jesus is walking down second avenue in, in Jerusalem he's not in Nazareth that's why there were times when people came to er, to, to, came rushing out because they heard that Jesus was passing by, see he wasn't there resident with them, he passed by, now he's gone back to heaven and where is he, he's in heaven, he, er whereabouts, where do you think Jesus is now, that resurrected body that was glorified that has gone back to heaven, where do you think it is +Gone back to the Lord ain't he. +well let's read, Ephesians one, nineteen to twenty three, somebody's got that, let's read that bit +right, so, he is there as er Jean er has read to us, seated at the, at the father's right hand, he's there on the throne, but Paul also says, talks about erm in the last verse there which is his body the fullness of,the fullness of him through Jesus who feels all in all, by the holy spirit although the glorified resurrected body of Jesus is on the throne, by the holy spirit he is everywhere , that's why he's with you and he's with me and he's with a folk in Timbuktu and in Honolulu, he is every where by the holy spirit, so now thinking of his exhortation again, as the God man, Jesus now fully and always makes use of the divine powers and attributes that are his, all power belongs to him and it's because that he says to his disciples you're to go into all the world and I am with you because all power is mine, all power, all authority is given onto me, therefore says Jesus, because of that you can go because you're going in my strength and in my authority. +Has somebody got Matthew twenty eight, verses nineteen and twenty? +Go there all people, every where and make them +and teach them to obey every thing that I've commanded you and I will be with you always to the end of +Right, I've just got a, two or three minutes, I've just wanna get something quickly done before we, we close and I'm not gonna look up all the references, because your get them for next week any way in, in the house group, but, now, now in a sense it's difficult to understand to take all this in after all his God and were people, how do we understand Jesus, it's, it's difficult, however knowing something about them does help us to understand something important, it helps us to understand what happened when Jesus ascended, when he went back to heaven, you see when Jesus arose from the earth the, the disciples who watch him it says there in Acts chapter one, they saw him go up in to the heaven, up into you know in a cloud, have you ever thought what that really means what on earth was it, they saw him go up in a cloud, can you image a sort of great clouds coming and dropping down over the mountain top there and was suddenly whisking Jesus up and then watching Jesus going up in this cloud into the sky, I don't really think it was quite like that, have you ever wonder why it was that Jesus went up in a cloud, you see what was he doing, he wasn't beginning a journey to some far off place in the universe, some distant corner where God the father was, he wasn't doing that at all, what do you think a cloud can you, give any suggestions of what a cloud might represent because very often a lot of some of the language in the bible is picture language and it, it, it speaks as something else, what do, what do you think a cloud, does any body have suggestions of what a cloud might speak to us about, or speak to us of, sorry, power yeah, any thing else +no hang on that, no, no, yeah, what is it just the thing of the moment about cloud, what does it, what does a cloud represent, Ben suggested power, any thing else +vapour, rain, any thing else +aha +yeah, well let me just read you two or three verses from Exodus, chapter forty, this is what it says then the cloud covered the tent of meeting and the glory of the Lord filled the tabernacle and Moses was not able to enter the tent of meeting because the cloud had settled on it and the glory of the Lord filled the tabernacle and throughout all their journeys whenever the cloud was taken up from over the tabernacle the sons of Israel would set out, but if the cloud was not taken up then they did not set out until the day that it was taken up, for throughout all their journeys the cloud of the Lord was on the tabernacle by day and there was fire in it by night, in the sight of all the house in Israel and if you were to turn over to kings you've got a, you've got a similar thing there with the dedication of the temple and as Be Ben was saying the power really it's the it's the presence of God, the shine, the glory, that cloud of, and so what, what, what catches the Lord Jesus up is really the glory of God here he is, the, the riseness, the glorified Christ being called up into heaven in the, in the glory, what he's been glorified, so he withdraws his physical, physical presence from one place here on earth to present there on the throne and yet by the holy spirit to be every where now Jesus then, he didn't cease to be truly man at either his resurrection or at his ascension, he stays man, God, the God man all the way through and it's still true today he is the God man today and that's important for you and me, think of the very worse experience that you have ever had in your life, think of the very worse experience that could happen to you, with the exception of you know that of, of say total failure of some awful sin, the worse thing, maybe a loss of someone dear to you, someone very close to you, er, er, a bereavement, the most awful experience you have had well he has gone through, he has known that experience, he has, has tempted in all points like as we are he knows our frame, he remembers were dust and he has been there and it is a man who has experienced those same experiences that you and I experience day by day, year after year, it is a man who has gone that, who has walked that path, who is in heaven interceding and praying for us, we'll stop there cos time has gone erm we'll stop there, we won't go on otherwise I'll get into trouble During this past month some of the questions in the New Testament, the first one we looked at you remember was that question that Jesus asked of his disciples, do you believe that I am able to do this, then we looked at a question which the disciples asked of Jesus, why could we not cast it out last week we looked at another question, are only a few people going to be saved and this morning I'd like us it's the final one of these questions not that there aren't other questions in the New Testament and scores, scores of others but were just looking at four er throughout this month, I'd like us to look this morning for one at, for a few minutes, at one that Jesus asked of a man who confronted him, I'd like to read a few verses from Luke chapter eighteen, Luke chapter eighteen I'm gonna read from verse thirty five, it's the well known account of blind Bartimaeus, Luke chapter eighteen and verse thirty five and he came about that as Jesus was approaching Jericho a certain blind man was sitting by the road begging, now hearing a multitude going by he began to inquire + +How long you gonna +And two packs of +Do you get to keep the walkman? +No +Did you ask +Swap it around. +Go on, swear, swear in front of all those Norwegians. +piss off +Yes it is. +What's that? +Ah. +No Norwegian Erik the Viking Erik the Viking +Okay. +blue from sir. +Gotta pretend that's not on though. +gotta pretend that it's not on though . +Can I have a blue then sir please. +Right. +Can I have a blue please. +Ooh David what is th yuck. +Look at you going Ooh David +Ooh. +Scream boy. +Right, let's see them ready. +Bloody cheek of it +really +Here where the fuck is Roy? +Piss off. +and asking +Go fuck yourself. +Dave don't muck about. +What have you fucking done +Come on then. +What are you doing with Spiderman? +shut up +Right I'm gonna make you go on some jobs for me that won't +Me, I go. +Well be what? +keep you in on Thursdays, so do the work +Ooh threatening me hey. +Ah you're in trouble now. +Yeah, yeah sure though. +innit.. +inside his arse. +Shut up. +Don't have to work. +Teachers are very unfair in this school, very unfair. +Teachers are very unfair in this school innit?innit sir yes they are sonny See what I mean. +What? +I'm gonna take down you in detention tonight +Yes what, I'm allowed to rewind this and erase it you know. +So who's sonny Jim? +Oh love you. +Yes sir. +If you want to erm wear an apron +I've gotta big one. +Dave, Dave, Dave, I've gotta big one +Yeah I know. +Ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh . +Now I am talking to Hello. +Hello. +hello +I am wolf from the Planet of the Apes your fanny +Shut up. +See Roy yesterday. +actually got engraved in the tarmac I'm only joking anyway. +So if you want, no joking. +Don't be a silly Billy, put a rubber on your willy. +Lick your boom boom there . +Sir can you . +Do you wanna brush? +Yeah. +Don't be a silly Billy. +Why? +I can't my hands are dirty Dave, Dave. +Don't muck about. +Sir, erm are we doing pa sir are we doing papier mache? +Sir? +Move up a little bit erm Just move up though. +Glue have you. +Thank you. +Now where sir where are they? +I lick your boom boom there, I lick your boom boom down . +Sitting in my sitting in my crib with my dibby dibby dib mass up mash up crib, slap me in the face and I can't do a . +No pick up the telephone ring. +informer, informer lick your boom boom down lick your boom boom, down, informer lick your boom boom there Goodnight. +Oi, oi, I heard that +apology. +I lick your boom boom now Money, money, money, money, money, it's a rich man's world ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh. +Money, money, money, ooh, ooh, who has money, ooh, ooh, who gave me your cash, or I'll mug you, yes I'll mug you. +Ooh give me all your cash not. +Not. +Wayne's World, Wayne's World, party time excellent. +Wayne's World, Wayne's World +Wayne's World, excellent, party time. +Wayne's World, Wayne's World, party time, excellent. +Wayne's World, Wayne's World It's party time, excellent Lick your boom boom now down the lane, lick your boom boom down here come the tiger, nobody move, nobody move, nobody the tiger come nobody move, nobody move. +Nobody move the tiger Oh shit. +Bubble bobble. +Bubble bobble, wibble wobble, bubble bobble. +I lick your boom boom down . +The pesticides get me the pesticides. +You know man just hush hush, if you know what I mean. +You tell him to shut up. +Did I did they say anything about adoption? +Damn fool. +your mum was adopted. +What you lying for? +What is she? +No what is she? +What breed? +Oh gosh, that's a good one. +What breed oh me. +chihuahua chihuahua. +knick knack paddy wack, give a dog a bone, Wolf went barking all way home. +Knick knack paddy wack, give a dog a bone, good old Wolf went wobbling home and a knick knack paddy wack, give a dog a bone, my old man went tumbling home +Did you realise what we're going to do, when you've got about +and a knick knack paddy wack give the dog a bone, my old man went tumbling home and a knick knack paddy wack give a dog a bone my old man went tumbling home How much is that doggy in the window, woof woof Woof woof, woof woof. +This is cool man. +. It's a f it's as fine as a line. +Who's that girl who's that girl who's that girl . +Yeah, Pulsar, rough, er Quasar's much, Quasar is lame compared to Pulsar. +Er Marc. +Yeah. +What's better, Pulsar or Quasar? +And which ways is Quasar better? +Pulsar it's more better. +Mm. +There's this other one. +Yeah,Kilburn. +It's rough meat. +sonic boom, sonic boom man. +Shit. +I'm just gonna do strips already just oh I need some scissors then. +See I'm so petite and perfect and all that lot and what not ever. +Sir have you got any swissors +Scissors? +swissors sic) yeah. +Oh there they are, thanks sir, nice one. +showing people these. +No, yeah I did. +Wasn't here. +Then why were you late? +Erm I had to go to Mr Walker's to get this thing. +Why? +This tape thing look. +they're funky. +What's that for? +par particular plays you know like Christmas plays +The girl's got some goofy teeth. +Mm that one's good. +But these other ones +Can you see what's the difference between me +Sir you're +No. +Erm it's much more colourful. +Much more colourful yeah, it's not realistic is it. +What would you call it? +No. +Erm science fiction. +Not science fiction, it's called symbolic +Mm yeah. +Symbolically that +What? +Mm. +yeah, or chic or something. +symbolic religious +Mm. +and it represents sort of spiritual people. +Yeah. +people for spirits +Come to me my son +symbolic +Yeah. +Er symbolic +if you wanna look at +No it's okay. +Thanks sir. +. Come on, where's my present? +Shame . +Where's my pen gone? +. Sir, have you got a pen? +It was here sir. +A pen, you don't need a pen now. +Yeah I need to write something down. +On what, what for? +Some paper for this thing. +What are you making? +Erm, it's a do it's a log. +A log? +Yeah a book, log book. +About what? +About teenagers talking and that. +When I have a conversation with you I have to write it down. +Conversation log.. +Right Said Fred +Deeply dippy about Sir how old are you, I need all this? +Yeah. +How old are you? +Just tell me. +Forty? +Forty eight. +Uh, uh, old man! +Innit?. +Sir, do you have any children? +Yeah +How old are they sir? +Gosh. +Stop it +Oh, be quiet man. +Sir, how much would you sell this pen for? +I need it, I need it. +Oh. +I don't get time to go shopping every day. +Sir? +Yes. +Shut up Marc. +international heroes We are in Sandra, in Sandra . +lick your boom boom now a lick your boom boom now +chicken sound . +Stop it Marc +a little boy in the . +Marc +No I'm not +stop it +Terry Venables blew a army I'll be there . +Hold this in your hands. +What? +Yuck, it's disgusting. +Yes,man. +Can you not see what erm er this woman fainted into my arms and she was embracing me for letting her not take her fall. +He's a stupid. +Oh sorry. +No its not +Oh yeah, right we all believe that. +come up to get her, do not tell another lie any more. +I need to embrace. +Any kind. +Winnie, you have been, you have been, you have been cheating on me. +No, I have not, I have been cheating on you. +You should have learned it. +Mm? +in the morning. +So what? +Please don't beat me dad Only joking. +Yeah boy, I told you to do your homework +No, stop daddy, stop it, stop By the way this is a play. +Oh,S S S Sandra, will you go out +Shut up +No, I won't go away +Don't take any notice of this, this is my friend Marc here, he's speaking a lot of crap at the moment. +Do not have a girlfriend called Sandra, and if I did, I think I'd kill myself. +So very good. +Barbara. +Do you +No,not my girlfriend, she's my ex-girlfriend,like like like like +No Marc. +What? +just go away +Max the lion +give me my +Sandra it's time. +Any other,Do man come at me like you're some typhoon Yeah listen to t what, what music do you like Wolf? +Do you like pop music? +Oh, no, Bros Will I, will I be I can when will I see my pictures in the paper. +There's no when will I will I be famous, when will I see my pictures in the paper. +When will I, will I be famous, I'm not a good guy any more +Now, right you're gonna stay if you can't work quietly. +Right oh oh er. +Damn idiot don't trust no bitch, bitch, bitch, bitch. +No, isn't +He's got it take it off the wall. +By the way, I'm recording this. +Oh yeah, erm can I erm use a pen I need to write down on the log, on the log. shit it you wanna know, I give you it. +jacket. +It's not mine. +It's David Wilson's The stinky jacket that's over there. +. Walk around with the whole bloody classroom. +Oh, oh, oh, Oi, stop mucking about . +No Marc don't stop mucking about Say what? +Papier mache all over him. +going to get you You better check whoa. +Better start checking mate. +Oh shit. +Oh shit. +Mr. Walker's room. +. Julian, yeah erm, er your twelve little you . +I'm ill. +Don't feel well . +relationship to himself. +Class mate. +Yeah. +Don't put it down. +round partner Erm, I've or friend. +No, not the cool hand of death. +There's a hole down there. +Hole down where? +hole down there. +Oh. +Oh yeah. +I hate Emma, such a cheat. +Don't trust no, don't trust no, don't trust no. +Bitch, bitch, bitch, bitch. +Bring out the holes down with some new improved shit. +Don't beat me, get off my bum. +Don't trust no. +Didn't I said, didn't I just said,I I just said get off my bum . +Don't trust no, don't don't trust no battery, battery man. +Hey where's my balloon gone now? +You're a cheat. +Come with a nice young lady intelligent . +oh, ah, don't break my back, don't break my back . +Hip hop hooray ho, hey, ho, hey, ho, hey, ho. +. Ho, hey, ho, ho, hey ho . +Marc, cut me up some strips. +Come on man, look, so glue. +Just cut them up for me then. +Get it yourself bitch. +Come on man, I've got Come with a nice young lady, intelligent In a cardboard box, informer lick your boom boom there lick your boom boom there with my dibby, dibby dob, police knock my door, they shout my crib, rough me up and I can't do a thing, pick up the when the telephone ring informer . +What? +Singing about. +Damn fool man, damn fool man. +The damn, damn fool man,the damn, damn fool man . +Hip hop hooray, yo, hey, ho, hey, ho, hey, ho. +. Yeah, nice Max. +What are you gonna stick on here? +Done many layers have you? +I know, I'm qu I'm not good at this. +You know what I usually do, I stick it all in and then whilst it's still in there I +Yeah man, same here. +I'm shitty. +Can't do this man. +finished sir +Boom, boom, boom, boom +I love that song. +Right, Max if you can't shut up I'm not having you in here +Cos I've got a lot of love . +I've gotta lot of love. +Gotta lot of love. +Oh sir, look it's all shabby it's coming off everywhere. +Max +Shut up. +Piss off. +Max mate you soaked me. +Codge wadge away, yo. +Yo. +Yeah. +Yo. +Hey. +Ho. +Hey. +Hey, ho, yo, yo. +Hey, hey, hey, hey, ho, ho. +So Richard. +So Richard. +I pronounce you Sir Richard. +Go . +Ho, hey, ho hi, ho, hey, ho, hip hop hooray, funky, get down, a-boogie, get down. +.Marc I want to pass wind +I want to +To break wind. +I want to break wind +I want to +I want to break wind . +fucking hole . +Hey, Marc, Marc there's people going home you know. +There's people going home. +Yes they'd like to go home and get +Yes matey. a lick your boom boom down,a lick your boom boom down +Right er, you lot if you can't stop making that stupid racket, I can't . +Okay. +was a nice young lady, intelligent . +So informer . +That's what I was gonna do. +Yeah, you always do. +.I'm gonna take him to outer space to find another race, I'm gonna take him to outer space . +I'm gonna tape my Ice Cube tape. +Huh, what? +. +Oh rubbish. +..you know. +Right people here at half past three, if I have to tell them about fooling about . +Come with a nice young lady Mm? +Erm let me see erm Max. +Max have you seen him? +What about him? +They're rough yeah is erm and all the way round it's got air bubble from here to there all the way round. +They're rough th well they cost, they cost dollars. +Watch, when you drop it and you smash them, watch they'll kill you. +What? +Yeah I know. +How old are you Wolf, thirteen innit? +In nineteen seventy nine u unusual individuals Wolf In nineteen seventy nine an unusual phenomenon happened. +A boy named came into the world and he shook it. +It was incredible image erm ability to fuck then an elephant and here we go . +Very impressive isn't it? +. Oh man I wanna go home. +. Cries and whispers. +. A campaign for secrecy is say what, say what. +Shut up +Er we're not gonna go in five minutes unless you're sitting quietly +hey yo, yo, hey yo, yo, hey yo yo, don't you know, hey yo, yo, here I go, hey yo, yo, yeah, yeah, yeah +Hip hop, hip hop. +. +There it is, gosh. +Look, I was looking for my pen and it was there all along. +Shut up silly . +This is all sound effects by the way. +Where are they? +Did they make them? +We'll come with the funky big nose and that. +Innit? +I get pretty unavailable its a really good time for you to get in an argument with me. +Mm? +I'm doing my homework while I'm erm whilst I'm doing my homework which I'm getting pretty frustrated about. +I'm going to bed now erm it's ten past ten +Yes Mum. +Yeah, we could just play with . +Yeah I know erm like. +What about might be going out with his mum or something, or going to his gran's. +Oh, then +And will have nothing to do in it exactly. +Then might be in there. +Yeah but what if he isn't. +But at least when we go to yeah, you get to go to places like ice skating. +Oh yeah, Michael's as well. +Not all the time. +Yeah, I know not all the time, but it's better than sitting on your fat arse at home innit. +Yeah,guess so. +You might don't it? +Wrestle +Now listen to him. +Shut up +that's the way to say it, +Who do I trust, who do I trust me, that's who. +Who do I trust, who do I trust, me that's who. +all of the all of the +Yeah, but I'm not listening to and this isn't I'm this is my log. +Oh shut up man. +You have to be quiet. +You're so loud, can't you see us recording it? +Bloody heater. +Good. +Shut up. +Damn heater. +can't ooh, ooh, can't ooh, ooh, can't . +Time is eight o'clock +Oh shut up, tell this +Oh shut up you're so stupid always causing +Ow. +always making trouble you are, you're a trouble maker. +You're a dreeb +Shut up. +Shut up +No. +This'll do. +What you doing? +Peanut head. +Shut up. +Peanut head. +Bean head. +No. +Boil head. +I don't want to. +Have I got a boil head then? +Have I? +No you've got a piggy head. +You've got apple jumble. +Apple jumble. +Who who who's one's is that? +That isn't your one's that's Audrey's. +This one apple jumblies +yeah apple jumblies +Obviously started it off cos he had apple jumble. +Everyone apple jumbles. +Audrey started it off. +But they all do though. +I like that thing in Ice Cube when it goes time twelve o'clock, knickers hot, dick hard, arse +Well how do you think +probably on the first level innit, or when it's starting up. +behaviour +What things? +Behaviour. +Oh I don't think so. +Just don't think so. +Don't think so mate. +Huh? +I Don't think so mate. +Knickers hot, hard arse or what. +Watch all tomorrow I'm gonna be talking about games. +Mm. +Yeah, I had this big argument no, I had this big argument +Mm. +With David Robinson all about how Super Nintendo is better than a Megadrive or Megadrive is better than a Super Nintendo big argument +And you said Super Nintendo +No Sega Megadrive, Super Nintendo's Cackup +You said Super Nintendo. +Huh? +You said Super Nintendo. +Yeah. +Yeah. +Super Nintendo's Cackup That's the cackest games machine. +The shittiest. +to use man. +Yeah I know. +Meg all Megadrive +What? +Super Nes quite hard to use. +Mm I know, but it's not that, it's the games they're just plain rubbish and cack and like that. +They've got too many continues in it as well. +Yeah most of the games have got duff continues. +Erm +They make innit? +Innit? +Mm. +but some games +They make sure you you know why they do that, so then you can go out and buy another game another one of their games and then this so then just keep on clocking them up yeah, and go out to buy a m more games so you spend more money of their games. +Yeah, but Megadrives do make their game their games like easy as well. +No they're not. +Not, not all of them but some of them. +Most of them are hard man. +Some of the are +We got Master System +But Sega Master Systems are har all of them are hard. +Yeah, they're the hardest. +you know. +Yeah I know. +Everyone reckons Master System games is harder. +Mm. +as well, but not everyone does because they they just the graphics. +Mm graphics and +It depends on how good the game play is you know. +You can get so bored on a Megadrive man, clocking up all the +Oh well look at Tazmania though, that was +Yes +that was easy +Yeah. +That was +And the Megadrive is hard. +Yeah,it 's it's easy on Megadrive though. +harder than most, it's got more levels than Master System too. +Has it? +Yeah. +Completely different course. +I know. +Guess what, they made one for Super Nintendo. +Tazmania? +It's so cack When you're doing the running, you're running from behind, you can only see the behind of Taz you see the behind of Taz +Tazmania? +Yeah. +Oh this is so rubbish man. +You can only see like his back his legs an and the back of running. +They're copycats man +So shit man. +Mm, Sega's better. +Sega are blatantly better. +Yeah. +They know, they just strive and survive Super Nintendo. +Game Boy rubbish. +Mm, no, erm yeah I know. +Look, look at Super Nintendo, tell me I want you to name me twenty good games you can't, you can't. +That's got no continues? +No, no twenty good games base it. +Base it? +Base it. +Twen s s you can't do it, you can't do it. +No let me try Super Mario +No, no all right then twe t twenty good games. +Super Mario Kart, that's one +Street Fighter, that's a good one. +That's rubbish. +It's a good game. +It's rubbish. +No. +Everyone +No, it is rubbish. +Yes, Street Fighter is rubbish. +Street Fighter Two is Super Nintendo. +Mm, go on. +Let me think of one. +Exactly you have to think a long time. +erm that +Mm. +Erm erm Castlevania is rubbish. +That's shit. +And then Super Soccer's quite good, but it's getting you get a bit bored of it +It's rubbish +Just get bored with it. +Erm +Let me help you out,Tiny Toon Adventures +Well that's good. +Star Wing. +Star Wars. +Yeah, Super Star Wars, Super Tennis, erm erm seven so far. +Joe and Mac Ninja Cavemen. +Mm, Joe and Mac Ninja Cavemen. +Yeah. +Erm +Final Fight. +It's not that good, cos it's either Final Fight you have to be or you can only pick out of and or it's Final Fight guy where you can only be or Guy. +No, but you only like or +Mm, I know but it's so stupid though innit? +I know, but that is so stupid though innit? +No, it depends on the game pl play is. +So what erm +Erm Fatal Fury. +Mm that's okay. +Yeah, it's okay. +It's kind of cack though cos the is so small. +But you to be on one of them innit? +Mm. +But who's erm who's fighting for their daughter or girlfriend +Erm it's Hagarth +Hagarth +is erm that's his daughter. +Hagarth's daughter? +Mhm. +Yeah. +But what? +When you play it on the arcade +Yeah. +You and Codie that's it. +When you Codie and Hagarth +Yeah. +On arcade you can be either Guy you can be Guy and Codie and leave out Hagarth but most people go for Hagarth +Hagarth +Some people call him Hagarth and some people call him Haygarth and some call him erm Haygar some people call him Hagge or all that lot. +Some people call him Hadger some people call him +Hadger +I reckon is Hagar +Yeah Hagar +Hagar +Hagar +Hagar +Yeah American name innit. +Hagar +Mm. +Do you know that's eight games man. +It's shit. +there be twenty +What? +and you go shit. +Gu Guy? +Yeah. +He's crap. +I know,the best. +No one ever got Guy +I know,Codie +Codie or +Now nev no one ever used to be Codie +C Codie is like +It's either Guy or Hagarth +But +Yeah because you know why people never tried him, cos everyone used to sit like like some people that are rubbish at the game yeah, they say oh, this Guy's shit and what they do they say oh, it's shit and tell everyone don't be him, don't him he's shit. +C Codie +So you'll just be wasting your so no one ever tries him out, but I've tried +Codie +him out, he's good you know, better than Guy. +Codie Codie's like +like erm Codie just like that +erm oh, yeah yeah, if you +Yeah. +I don't care. +Same jeans, same t-shirts +Exactly same jeans, same jeans, same t-shirt got same colour hair. +Yeah. +Same colour eyes. +And they, and they both got it like that, they both got it like that. +but Streets of Rage +yeah Streets of Rage. +They both go like that. +I like Streets of Rage but I like Streets of Rage One an and that erm erm +They both go like that +You know, Final Fight's like Streets of Rage One +I know. +Yeah Final Fight's but it isn't actually +I know cos Guy and Codie yeah +Three people. +Er Guy and Codie yeah is erm +Codie is erm and Guy is erm Adam and and Axle is erm +Hagarth +Hagarth yeah. +Not really though, yeah not really. +I tell you yeah, this yeah and thing right and erm it's what's this is Streets of Rage Two and Fata Final Fight yeah. +Max is Hagarth definitely. +Oh yeah. +Yeah, yeah okay yeah okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah okay, okay, okay, yeah, erm erm let me see Blaze is Guy +Blaze is Guy. +Codie is Axle. +Yeah. +That's it. +What about +Yeah I know. +No one 's escaped. +innit +Yes. +older than that. +About fifteen. +I can just say that I've clocked it, even though I can I just I can't clock it yeah I can just say I could cos I know how it end. +I know. +Man +lying on the floor yeah, +Yeah. +Instead +Adam? +Erm, no +No the guy that was the machine gun. +Mister X, Mister X yeah. +See him lying on the floor yeah, he's dead, and then +You see others going like this +and then you see Adam he's in these chairs,with his arms like that yeah and he's kneeling down yeah and and it's really good graphics yeah and then you see them outside +Yeah. +with erm with erm yeah they're all lined up yeah yeah and you can see erm Blaze and Max yeah and Max going like this +Yeah. +and then you see all of them from behind, yeah and you see on Adam's shoulders +Yeah. +and all lined up +Yeah. +and they're all waving at this helicopter and +I know. +and it's in the sunshine and then it ends. +I know. +Yeah, I know. +I saw it in the Games Master magazine +yeah. +you told me. +Mhm. +So bloody boring. +What? +This. +What, what you're doing now? +Yeah, we're sitting here and talking about crap. +Yeah let's talk about games. +Erm +to do. +Lemmings Two. +Yeah, get Lemmings Two. +I found out that my friend's games, my friend's games but he he's lent it out to some +Mm. +So when he gets it back I +Mhm. +Yeah. +then take it back +So I know +Mm? +Yeah what about it? +No well we need disks to record it. +No you don't. +Yes we do. +Yes, but Sellasie +Mm? +You see they have the set-up disk +Then we've got to together it's a set-up disk. +Uh Huh. +What do you think that disk you are holding was? +type in. +Sellasie. +Sellasie, right if yeah you can do that, but you still need back-up files. +Something might go wrong. +Exactly. +Something might go wrong. +can't go wrong is that the th the thing in you put in the computer won't go off won't go off and won't be on the computing see what I'm saying? +That's what they have to that's what they they do +Can you join the group. +All right. +Yeah. +All right what like here keep it that +Yes, well you just put volume of water in that one. +Oh. +You've got ten minutes to see who's one dropped +Is there a price? +Is there a price? +The price is commendation and glory and honour. +Oh +Simple enough glory and honour. +Shitty. +I know. +Hulk and the fantastic all against all odds. +Yes I got it right here. +No, who said who said he was borrowing it? +borrow it. +Yeah, well I 'm I 'm I'm still borrowing it. +You are a you know +Not really. +No. +I haven't even heard the rest of the songs. +I tell you what +Yeah. +I'll let you listen to it, I brought it in today. +Rough tape what. +Who can I trust, who can I trust, me, that's who. +Ooh you bean heads. +Ooh. +Let's see it. +He's got it in his bag. +Get it out of his bag. +too tired and there's a in it +Shit +That's rough you see it yeah, there's aliens there, they catch superiors yeah and they take them it's wicked that each other and other people he's the champion, him and his erm girlfriend are the champions. +Oh is that the aliens? +No he's the he's just the champ champion of the he's the +Yeah all right then. +under the desk comics +That's mine sir. +Not my idea of science. +What? +It's shit Cooler than just Just ricochet off his body you know. +.and so bloody loud +It is +Louder with you in it innit? +You're supposed a old one. +The world's mightiest teacher against all guns. +It's one hell of a boring conversation man I'm turning this cr shit thing off. +This is so boring innit? +Mm. +Who's your partner then, who's your partner then ? +nobody wants you Dawn Dawn hasn't got any friends +Oh shut up. +Shut up. +Eighty-nine. +Eighty-one. +Eighty-two. +Oh, oh. +I was talking about you yesterday. +Everybody quiet, I'm trying to listen and listen. +Cos about remember the argument we had in maths about Sega and Nintendo. +What, what, what? +Yeah. +What you saying? +I was talking with my brothers about it. +What you saying, what? +Is it on now? +Yeah, it's on now. +Recording you in it. +say, Super Nintendo Se Super Nintendo's a bit all right though. +Yeah, it's okay, yeah but a Megadrive's better innit? +I know man. +Megadrive's better man. +Yeah they can +It's half past man +Yeah I have. +Got a lot to do. +No, course don't think so. +Oh was there. +Oh was that the was that this private doctor? +it wasn't my fault though. +Oh June please get off. +June, June, June, June you creep get off June ooh Don't come near me again. +Bitch. +. Shit. +June, I didn't know you felt that way. +Get off shut up. +Give us my pass. +June isn't too much . +Push June, push . +Not. +When you've put it away, sit down. +Can you all bring your please. +Oh guess what, yeah? +There's this man I know and he's that quick yeah, he's he erm my uncle yeah, he's at college and there's this man at his college yeah and listen yeah because they've got t v's and they're allowed to stay up as long as they want. +Listen, what are you watching and he goes +twilight zone. +burn it up, burn it. +I was talking to you lot earlier on innit. +Yeah. +Yeah. +Right, sit down please listen . +Sit down and be quiet please. +Sir how old are you? +Sit down and be quiet. +Turn it off. +Hello erm this is June, say hello June. +Hello +Oh erm, oh forget it, forget it. +Turn this off please. +Erm I'm gonna do erm this one. +Right +I'm gonna do that I want to be free. +come over to you +I done it in neat. +Oh, it's at home, forgot it. +see it +I had to go to the doctor okay then. +Yeah, but I 'm I'm doing this erm +Yeah, all right, but you work on that right? +Yeah. +I wanna be free What? +I have to have it on I wanna have a conversation. +Well speak to me then. +Speak to me. +I'll turn it off then. +let me use the Tippex. let me use the Tippex. +Let me use the Tippex please Phillipe. +Yeah okay. +Mind if I keep it yeah? +I'm gonna anyway yeah. +Nice one, see you. +What are you doing Give my give my book back mm. +cheek. +Yeah, so what. +I don't give a damn, I don't give a damn. +Shut up, hush hush. +What are you doing? +Damn fool, take it in. +Just hush your mouth. +Better not stop mucking about with it,get ripped or anything, gonna go out and by me a new book. +Pay me five quid. +Look will you put your hand up +Shit. +. Shame. +behave. +shame David . +I am waiting for quiet from everyone. +Shame David. +No. +will you stand up +Why are you talking? +Why are you talking in class? +Get lost to get the chop. +Ben, Ben, Ben. +What? +When is it your Ben day. +why are you buying me +No, I'm bur I'm buying you a new pack of condoms. +Gonna buy you a house. +Empty pack of condoms. +Yeah. +I'm gonna get him one of those machines that gives condoms when you put a pound in yeah. +Erm, let me see one, two, three, four. +Four centimetres. +Four millimetres actually. +Yeah. +Oi, I wanna Where is it? +No. +Give it back. +yourself. +No. +I didn't want. +Yeah. +Oh oh I just recorded that I was gonna keep all the words but I'm only joking +Not. +Good old Ben you said yes. +Yeah I know No. +You get ketchup, you get blast up, you get ketchup you get blast up, oh oh. +Blanks and spanks you get blank and then you get spank. +By Ben's mum. +What's it called +About er and the next one comes up +It's good is it is it. +You just get it anywhere it's not worth the sort of on it. +It is the special +That look's wicked though. +No. +Do you know who that looks like? +No. +No that's like that in erm Spiderman and he's like the Punisher and he's dressed in green. +No, no he looks like he's trigger happy boy. +Erm yeah. +No +Kass +Yeah he does look like but oi, you know that Spiderma oi oi, oi you know that Spiderman one you had yeah where deathlock is that was Spiderman and erm it erm and erm Spiderman's talking to this guy and erm he's he's dressed in green and he looks just like erm death like erm Kill Power. +What's the name called again? +Like comics +Bring it is it? +You've got them all. +No I've gotta I've gotta find out which which comics are which which . +Mm, yeah . +I can't find out which comic it is. +Look fo look for the guy man. +Which man, him? +Yeah. +He looks like him but he's in green and he's like the Punisher but he's trigger happy boy. +Just a madman. +Bring in some tomorrow. +Ben, let me have a look at that erm Punisher comic of yours. +Why? +Well cos I saw the cover of it and it looked really good. +Why. +Why? +I'm coming this way. +No. +Wanna swap it in your mum's punny Yeah I know, it's cos I stretched it when I wanked her. +Yes I did. +Yeah cos I I fucked her and when my big dick went inside it stretched it, it stretched it. +It stretched it and started all bleeding and I had and I had to sew it up with a sewing kit. +Cos it's got loads of blanks inside. +Has it? +Yep. +Cos it's the banks. +I would like to see your Amiga dick head. +What? +I told you that one. +You told me that one? +Yeah. +That one's older. +Red light and the cobwebs on erm here comes mum's pussy. +They're old. +Ten years old each . +Cos no-one's got the nerve to go and fuck her . +Cos they'll know they'll be run cos they'll be run and one would be running in +And then the doctor couldn't be bothered to it. +The doctor was so ugly yeah, no, no that when the doctor s when the doctor saw her, no when the doctor saw her, she was so ugly he just had to run, couldn't be worth cutting the prinny hole . +Right, you know your dick yeah, right you know your dick, yeah you know it's got that slit on the very end of it, if that wasn't slit I swear your whole body would be full of piss. +What? +Cos none of the piss would be able to get out if there wasn't a slit on your dick +chewing gum. +Oh no. +Oh no +What? +She goes when she was born either he was chewing some chewing gum and it fell out and it went ins caught in your mum's prinny and it glued it together See you tomorrow dudes. +No, you'll catch Why not? +Why not? +Lookout you get you better get on the thing. +Man, this was the best ice-cream I've ever had. +Ice pop. +Have we, have we? +Pass the ball. +What? +Can't. +Pass the ball. +Ha ha you did get it and he still gets it. +P J. +P J +Yeah, have you seen it? +Yeah have you seen that break. +Oh. +Just just just and it just don't bring it over here back here. +Back it . +Look out wonder +Uh huh +I want here. +I want here. +Hello. +I want. +Hi mum. +I've got some money cos I owe you some. +How much do I owe you? +Erm because erm er it's about half an hour before break time. +Only the first lesson which is music and we just we just do chords and er thing. +How much is that? +You have given me thirty pence. +Thirty pence. +You got more than thirty pence thirty pence. +Yeah I know I know I owe you ninety-nine P. +I've got +I'll give you the rest tomorrow +I've got twenty-nine P back. +No, twenty-five twenty-eight. +That's twenty-nine. +Twenty-nine, twenty +I owe you er sixty seventy P. +Yeah, okay. +I want you to answer it. +Yeah. +girl I'll be right here be right here have no fear, have no fear be right here Yeah? +Bless me. +Yeah what? +You come here. +All right wait a second, I'm coming down. +What? +Don't see why it should I suppose you can. +Rude boy in the house. +Why the house. +It's just a bad case of de ja vu, de ja vu, de ja vu, yeah and I got some rough comics you know. +My friends loaned them to me, my friend Tom erm I've got +No, I've got Overkill and it's and it's Battle tide, it's got it's got erm Deaths Head Two and Kill Power. +Kill Power's the best week. +There's a there's this guy you know this guy Kill Power, yeah, looks that's kill that's him there yeah. +Yeah. +He's got the mind of a ten-year old. +see he goes hey wanna play and all that lot. +I've got this other called the New Warriors, it's Namoree versus Nova it's rough. +It's I've had a look at Battle Tide a little look at it and it's New Warriors though. +Hello Auntie. +Give me a cuddle. +How are you? +You didn't tell me you were coming. +No. +You didn't tell anyone you were coming. +I didn't +you didn't tell anyone you were coming +Didn't know. +No I didn't think I was coming. +It won't matter. +for my sister. +Okay Boring. +Yeah boring. +What? +Boring and hot. +Yeah, erm I think you should do my +Well how was school then? +Okay. +Boring. +Boring? +Yeah. +Are you taking your exams? +Oh no you're not are you. +No. +You'll have to come and see us again some time. +Yeah. +. Hi Dad. +Mm? +Nothing. +From the top of the stairs on this thing here. +Dad, dad, Auntie has to go somewhere I don't know where, but she just told me to call you cos it's quarter past fifteen minutes past six or is it seven? +Yeah fifteen minutes past six. +So you have to go somewhere now don't know where but Auntie Dad your sister wants you. +Yeah, I'm coming just tell her I'm coming all right. +Okay, okay, don't get so mad and hectic. +Stop mucking about on that football damn idiot. +Take my two pounds. +Yeah. +Hey I can hear what I'm saying with these erm earphones. +I can hear what I'm saying I ain't tried this one before. +What you going to school already? +Oi, you going to school already? +I'm going twenty past. +Oh. +Yes that's the time I'm going as well. +Why? +Cos I am. +Just cos I am. +cos last time I +Right Dad, see you. +Oh yeah, I better take that back. +Where did I put my homework. +I am so bad, so bad, yes so bad oh yeah. +Mum. +Erm I'm going. +Have you had something to eat? +No I'm not hungry. +Understand +What? +What? +What? +Mm? +What you said? +Oh shut up. +Some people's problems all calling me crinkly head mad or something. +Where's the blasted game boy ones gone? +No I didn't. +It's around here somewhere. +I don't know where. +Where are they?taken then . +this business. +Get out my face What's this? +Oh Yes. +I have them the undisputed champions of they're idiots. +So I can just because they have been found and I shall use them you shut up, or should I shut up. +I've got my own I choose when to shut up. +I choose when not to shut up. +Yes so why did you say shut up in the first place? +Yeah but I'm not gonna shut up. +Yeah, yeah yeah I am, I am, I am gonna make a thank you very much. +Bitching. start bitching Stop bitching. +What the have to give me blacks blacks yes, it is done. +yes wicked, no, not wicked. +some blacks. +I know you don't care. +Cos he just don't care. +. Oh shut up. +Yeah, sounds just like just like when you said it innit? +I've got, I've got batteries for it. +yeah go on all crap. +Dumb bitch dumb bitch. +Dumb Why do you like picking up the telephone so much? +Does it make you feel important or something. +Stupid. +Stupid. +Okay Mum, bye. +Bye people. +By everyone, see you some other time if you know what I mean. +Just shut up. +Was I talking to you? +Elee. bitching around now. +stupid. +Stop bitching. +Aha yes, it is done, it is perfect, it is Oh shut up. +where that bitching thing now. +Where's that comic cover gone have you seen that comic cover? +Yeah was on my batteries gone as well. +Hey stop bitching. +Stop bitching whoa. +Thursday. +What the Thursday stop bitching. +Oh yeah, that's okay yeah. +It's nice it's sweetie,Yeah see you dweebs later yeah? +Well gotta fly see you later. +Yeah Mama. +Okay Mama, okay Mama, Mama I do your Mama. +I'm copying you lot y'know, I'm taping you now +so maybe you just better hush and +Say something Justin +Hello +I can't hear, I can't hear +Hello +Hello hello it's working. +Say hello t d' you want to say hello? +Hello +She's a cow +What happened? +What happened? +What happened? +What happened? +Oh yeah yeah yeah. +Yeah, it's got that nasty . +Yeah +How could you not hear about it? +No no no she's in second year, third year +Oh, what's that?can't spell . +She's done the S and the L backwards. +Oh Sharon. +Sharon, that's it, I could not get her name last night. +I was trying to think of her name +oh yeah that one's ok actually +That one's wicked +That one looks good as . +Oh yeah, it was mine, it was me innit, it was s it's excellent. +What's this? +Oh my gosh, what is that one? +. Oh no, hey, think that's bad, come here. +Some person , I feel sorry for them. +Look. +Oh, the S backwards, the L backwards, the backwards and not even a I in there. +That's mine +That one's , that one's , that's innit? +Right, everybody now has their +Mhm mhm. +Well you'd better +It's cold in here man. +I'm putting my jacket on. +The first thing you need to know is that when they need to wear armour. +What does that tell us about ? +It was dangerous +They were very dangerous and brutal. +Highly aggressive so you had to yourself . +That's one piece of evidence. +made a statement gladiatorial games were very violent. +Somebody will say, well how do you know that? +And you'll say well, why else would they need to wear armour to protect themselves unless it was quite dangerous? +What are you two doing? +Oi +Oh, there's there's Chinese, Japanese, dirty knees, look at these +Well, I've got chewing gum +Have I? +Have I got some then? + +to take you further on in your about nationalization. +Er had it been something that you'd long sought after you know, like like in the mines where it had been an issue for some years? +You know, during the war years ? +Er well nationalization during the war, the er nationalization and war news were interspersed you know, I mean the When you hadn't any war news to talk about, you spoke about nationalization. +After the war we'll get nationalization you see. +But that was er er a a faint hope. +Before before we could get nationalization, we had to get a Labour government. +And I and many others thought that the Tories, after the war was finished, the Tories would walk in. +By reason of the fact that Churchill was the great leader. +And never in my wildest dream did we imagine that Labour would get in with the resounding majority that they did get in. +But however nationalization was always on the minds of the railwaymen. +And we learnt of course the minds of various other big heavy industries. +Do you recall nationalization being an issue that was talked about in the work place, you know was it talked about in the buffets and in the union meetings and +Yes. +Erm firstly I mean,du during the war in particular? +During the war Well while the war as going on nationalization was brought up in the buffets by what we would term now, the activist or militant Labour people. +They were always broaching that subject, nationalization. +Because they believed and they got me to believe at the time, that nationalization would be the cure for all our ills. +It would cure unemployment, it would give the workers control of their own industries and that everything would be hunkydory. +There was a lot of talk but of course you always had these people who sons and that in the army, and they would always come in with the war situation. +So as I said, it was interspersed you know it was . +But I don't think there were any anyone that I knew on the railway were not against nationalization. +They were all for nationalization, because they believed that nationalization was the only way to solve the problems of the development the future development of the railways. +Because you must remember during the wars, the railway stocks were being run down. +You see even the the workshops, the railway workshops were working very hard you know, but they were only making make do and mend style. +And there were no new stock built during the wars. +So it meant that by the end of the war, the railway stock, the carriages, locomotives and all that was on their last stages. +Okay? +And that's why at that time, near the end of the war,and when the talk of nationalization become greater, the hope of nationalization because as I said before, never in our wildest dream did we think that Labour would get in with such an overwhelming majority. +But the the the railway stock was in such a bad state, that that's when people started the real activists of the Labour movement really started talking about confiscation instead of compensation. +Because there was a great Tory voice sounded throughout the press and the mass media you see, that er on compensation for the railways, if there ever should be nationalization that they had to be amply compensated you see. +And then they come in the Labour activists come in with this, no compensation, confiscation, the was worth tuppence you know. +But I don't know how it was, but it came about that this confiscation business was dropped just as soon as we Labour got into power. +That the government got into power, That seemed to be put aside, confiscation. +No we had to be fair, was the saying, for the leaders. +We have to be fair, we've got to give them the compensation. +You see, A fair price for their stocks and their holdings. +Now that disappointed me I know, because I knew from where I stood, that the stuff was practically worthless. +It would have to be renewed as soon as the the nationalization was prepared to go, the government took over. +Now workers control, that's what it meant to me. +I was gonna take you on to that you know. +What did workers understand by and mean by nationalization and what did they want from nationalization? +Well +Was workers control a prominent part of people's thinking on this like? +It was a prominent part of people's thinking, worker's thinking. +That they had more say in the running of their industry of the railway. +Now the first disappointment in that respect was the appointment Now I may be wrong but I'm I'm I'm s I think I'm right here the appointment of the chairman of the railway executive, that's what it was first called. +It wasn't called the railway board. +the first Chairman I'm sure it was, Lord Robbins Alf Robbins. +A Labour minister. +Now I might as well say it here, at this point that Alf Robbins was just another social democratic party member. +That's what he was on that at that time. +And this is forty eight, nineteen forty eight. +He was a right, right and ultra right Labour party, and he was made the first chairman. +Now I knew him for what he was as a right softly softly. +You know, all things to all men man. +But he was our he was on the national executive. +I don't know what position, ministerial position he held I just forget, at the time. +But he was a prominent figure from the Labour party. +And he was made chairman of the Railway executive. +Now I smelt a mice then you see, I I my own personal thoughts were, What's what's the idea of appointing instead of a a real go ahead executive member, why did they put him in. +I learned later that he was just another capitalist. +So after about a year, eighteen month, I could see by his dictates that we weren't going to have worker's control in the real sense of the word. +True they set up er local departmental committees and sectional councils. +And they had the whole machinery negotiations fixed you see. +But as the years went on, they were useless I mean er they were just talking shops. +And the management always came out tops you see. +So within about three years, my hopes were dashed. +I realized then that nationalization, the great the great nationalization enterprise was simply state capitalism. +It was just capitalism continued. +Only the people were paying for it off of taxes. +Instead of the well to do investing in in shares and that. +It was the people that were being drawn by the nose and paying for the whole thing. +Er +How did you see nationalization being put into effect? +Er I mean in the sense of actually er on in the railway yards itself er themselves. +You know were there any immediate changed that er were apparent to you? +No. +There were no immediate changes, it went on from private enterprise, the changeover We were told at the time that we were just just to carry on the way we'd been doing. +See. +Er there were some dubious appointments as er yardmasters. +See before nationalization, it used to be men who rose form the ranks that got the jobs, you know, men that knew the job. +After nationalization, there was quite a number of university graduate appointed as yard masters, station masters. +Without any railway experience. +They read up the transport laws at university and all that transport and everything. +But they had no practical experience you see. +And I remember one, a Yorkshireman he was appointed yardmaster of Portobello Yard,and where I worked. +The three yards that were under him. +And he had assistants at each yard you see. +He was a hale fellow well met sort of Yorkshireman you know, a bluff Yorkshireman. +A nice enough chap and he was knowledgeable in theory you see, but when it come to the practical experience and the practical doing of the work, he would just say, Well what did you do the last time Jimmy? +And I said like this. +I would tell him. +Well do the same. +You see? +So that was er the blue eyed boys period. +But strangely enough that went out, it came in with a flush see? +And there were you could see them all over British Railways. +Ex graduates you know, university boys getting positions there. +And the story was that they were er ex railway shareholder's sons or you know all this. +That's how they were placed in the position you see. +Alf Robbins, Lord Robbins as he was then, knew what was going on. +He must have agreed to all this. +getting the go ahead. +And he went along with it. +But as I said, that finished after about five or six year. +And then they started recruiting or or or promoting them from the ranks you know. +Step steps. +Each step you see was promotion and er I think about nineteen fifty five, we started about nineteen fifty five aye after about seven years. +The railway started to what I could only term, improve. +It started to improve. +Because there were men there who had the experience, knew what they were doing, knew what their mates were capable of and not capable of you know. +Knew their shortcomings and their capabilities. +And that's when the railways I thought, nineteen fifty five to nineteen sixty, there were a great surge forward. +Ideas coming forward. +Trade unionism taking a grip. +On the railways. +A real grip. +There had been trade unions before of course, and er activity but not to the same extent between fifteen er nineteen fifty five to sixty, there was a great surge forward. +The railways railwaymen were demanding more, because they felt quite rightly that they were giving more to the railways. +And therefore they wanted the rewards that go with it. +Nationalization was dead as far as I was concerned, we were back in the rat race. +And that's when we started putting in for annual wage increases. +See previous to that it was maybe every five years you put in for a wage increase a wage application. +Between er in the late nineteen fifties, that's when we stated going. +Going ahead and it started with annual wage increases because the wage increases that you did get were all about three, four or five percent at the time. +And that only lasted you you see. +of the living in the standard of living was slightly better for those who were working. +Slightly better than it had been previously. +I'd like to take you back to that this whole idea that you've you've expressed about the idea of of state capitalism. +Er how nationalization in effect as you've described it, existed for about maybe ten years +Yeah. +before people twigged if you like, that what had actually happened amounted to hardly anything more than a change of sort of managerial personnel. +Er +Is that how you you saw it? +Aye well you see when we did twig,the great deception you know, and it's worthwhile recalling here that we had Richard Marsh I think he's a title now Sir Richard Marsh. +He was another Labour great Labour mouthpiece. +Another S D P man see. +Lord Beeching, a Tory Tory. +He came and he just slashed the railways you see. +It seemed that they were either capitalist or social democrats which I mean a social democrat by any other na a Tory by any other name's just the same. +I mean there there's no difference. +As I've said before you're either red or or blue or black and white. +But anyway, the railways there was a spurt on between in the late sixties on the railway and that's when I think I was sure, not only because I was a branch secretary at the time but I'm sure that all the British Railways there was a greater awareness of the fact that we had been deceived by the word nationalization. +It wasn't anything like workers control as we had expected. +It was just old natio Old private enterprise, private railways back in, only there were no different region, there were no L M S, L N E R, G W R or that. +They were all one. +I'd like to take ba take you back to the the changeover itself. +Do you remember much about the the attitude of the of the old L N E R management you know, er especially during the lead-up from Labour coming to power, and it becoming more obvious that nationalization would in fact take place? +Do you remember much about how the old managers felt about that? +The old managers? +Aye well of course at that time, in nineteen forty eight, I was detached I mean I I didn't know much about the management's thinking, or their pronouncements. +See. +But I can remember one thing that happened in in that respect was that the superintendent came down to a meeting or he wanted to see us after nationalization. +And it was all about er, Now that th we're nationalized railway nationalized, it meant that we could er gain promotion and we wouldn't be confined to the one section. +There'd be no L N E R, no L M S, see. +Well that was the only two railways that affected us. +The L N E R and L M S. And er I could see then that I knew that superintendent in the private days of the railways. +And few years, and yet he said a long face, if you wasn't you wasn't happy with the thought of running a district that was nationalized see? +But it as it turned out he needn't have had no fears. +See? +Because he was just doing the same job as he'd been doing under the private under the L N E R. Management were more conciliatory when nationalization came on. +See in pre-nationalization days, a superintendent was the big chief. +When he appeared in the yard, you had to jump it. +The red carpet literally was out for him you see. +But after nationalization, it was obvious, when he did put in an appearance or and that was very rare, there wasn't the same palaver for his visit. +He would just came and went into the yardmaster's office and had a word or two with him and then he would maybe ask to see the staff local representative and the local committee. +And he'd have a word, Er how's everything going along? +Alright and er you're quite happy with things as they are and that? +And that would be the extent of his visit, he would have a cursory look round the yard and away. +But there was no er pointing this out and pointing that out, that's wrong, as he did As they did in the pre-nationalization days. +It seemed to me that they assumed and air of couldn't care less you know that that was their attitude after nationalization. +Couldn't care less and they were just there until their time for retirement was . +They didn't like it at all. +They didn't like it at all. +But as I said they need have no fear. +You made some interesting points there with your s er your suggestion that at least the idea of a different relationship with management was there. +You know, there were knew structures and new procedures for the unions and +Yes. +that kind of thing. +How did you how do you recall that? +Well the there was a new machinery of negotiations set up. +And strangely enough, the branch, the branches were not in the machinery of negotiations. +They were excluded from the negotiations. +But what happened was, if a member of my branch had a complaint, he would come to me as secretary and complain. +And I should have told him, if you've any complaints, come to the branch meeting and make your complaints there. +But er I knew that it wasn't poss always possible for one to be at the branch meeting you see. +So anyway, that was it, you had to go to your branch and complain, make your protest in writing, see, and the branch secretary would reply to your letter okay, And they'd ask for maybe a few more details about the complaint. +And then he would take that complaint, if the branch committee approved it, you see, or nine times out of ten if the branch secretary thought it was a valid case, he would send it in a letter to the sectional council. +You see, from Portobello branch to the Sectional Council Scottish Region. +Er stating the case you see, stating out the case. +And urgent you know on it immediately see. +Well that went to the secretary of the sectional council, and that's when the negotiating machinery of negotiation started. +It would maybe take They held meetings ev The sectional councils held meetings, every three month, every quarter. +Now there were sectional councils in every region you see, for different regions,Scotland . +Scotland was one region. +And the management, top management in in Scotland would meet er representatives for the N U R and they would discuss it. +The A S L E N F, they were a different they had a kno they had a sectional council of their own you see, for local men. +And then there was a sectional council number three, that was for guards, shunters, ticket collectors and various other grades. +And they would have that meeting and they would maybe last, the meeting would maybe last a week you see, it was held in Glasgow. +And er at the end of it you were issued with a a report you see. +The sectional council minutes, the minutes would come out, and they were di distributed to all the yards and depots. +And you would see the case of er er J , head shunter , protests at being superseded for yard foreman's job at . +See? +Well of course the branch secretary would give all the data, information regarding that, you see, and why s as a protest why he shouldn't have been superseded you see. +And er invariably it would come out, the reply not conceded. +Or t protest not susp not sustained you see. +It was amazing, I think you had one about a hundred conceded. +So much for the N U R and A S L N F. Although I will say, the driver's union, the A S L N F, their sectional council got more from their anyway, than did the N U R . +I'm sorry to say. +Because well I don't know they seemed to be more active. +More interested in the real issues you see? +On the railways and the conditions of their members. +But that was a fact under the sectional council number three, the one that I was represented by, they seemed to be poor. +Or the management seemed to be better, okay? +But then if that not conceded or protest not sus sustained, that would the letter would come back to the Official letter would come back to the branch secretary you see, and he would look at it, and he would put it to his branch and if they wanted to go further, that went to Euston House, the N U R headquarters, Euston House. +For the to go forward to the R S M C and that was Railway Staff National Council. +That was held in London you see, the headquarters. +Management, top management and the N E C or the N U R and that's when it went to there and it was discussed and dealt with at that level. +There was another higher body, like an arbitration council,dealing with railways, but er that was very seldom used. +It was more for wage negotiations and various other conditions of service, general conditions of service, not individual. +I'd like you to just summarize your your your feeling on on nationalization. +Er that kind of idea that er you know, whether any changes at all that you thought that you appreciated er in that made workers feel that they were in fact a more important a more important part of their industry? +Just to summarize your feelings on nationalization . +Aye. +Well I don't think we felt any more important, At the beginning, we had great hopes you see, on Nationalization, but they quickly faded you see, and we were soon lulled into a sense of hopelessness. +Very soon you know, months rather than years. +We knew that right away that there were there were no future. +Here labour government by the appointment of Lord Robbins, and one of calibre who couldn't care less. +He gave me more more decisions against the workers than he ever gave for them. +And er he wanted the railways to be run, like clockwork. +Without any concessions at all. +His wage concessions were negligible. +. And that's when we saw that the railways would just as well have been run under private enterprise. +Nationalization was a pie in the sky, and the pie fell to the ground very soon. +Well generally speaking, how did that that awareness affect your feeling and other people's feeling about the forty five government? +Er +The ninety forty f er the nineteen forty five government? +Did you feel that people had that same kind of disillusionment with the government more generally speaking? +Yes. +There was one great hero, in that nineteen forty five government and that was Ni Bevan. +He seemed to me and many others, I think we were in common agreement, most of the people that I was associated with, that Ni Bevan was the only man that really cared you know, he really cared. +He came from Wales of course, from the valleys and that. +And er I heard him speaking twice when he was in Edinburgh, wonderful orator, but not only that, you see we have Neil Kinnock, present day, good orator, good articulate . +But he lacks the intensity of feeling that Ni Bevan had, he lacks it. +I mean the the caring feeling oozed out of Ni Bevan. +When he introduced his national health service, a wonderful scheme, everything was free, it was paid of the taxes you know, as it should be as Beveridge envisaged you see? +Ni Bevan took it up, introduced it, put it through parliament, and then lo and behold, it was running wonderful wonderfully well. +Everybody working cha and women were getting false teeth and new glasses. +I was gonna ask you how working people what working people felt about it when it was first introduced ? +Aye oh, this was the greatest thing the greatest thing that could have happened to the people. +Because prior to that we only had the Lloyd George nineteen eleven scheme. +Where the wage earner only got free dental treatment and free medical treatment you see. +The wife and family the wife and family didn't the wife and family didn't er benefit in any way. +The worker paid his contribution and that was for own benefit. +Shocking when you think of it isn't it, your wife and family. +You had to pay them five shillings a visit to the doctor, and then your spectacles or any dental treatment you got, you had to pay for them. +A shilling a week you know you had to pay out. +But anyway as I said, Ni Bevan put that through. +He was greater than Attlee. +Attlee was a good leader I believe, he went about it surreptitiously you know, he wasn't a vociferous sort of chap, he was a quiet man. +But er I his lieutenants were there and I'm sure he looked to see that they were doing their job properly. +Ni Bevan in particular and then, when Gateskill came on, maybe that's going a bit too far ahead, but never mind. +I remember Gat er Ni Bevan, he tore Gateskill to ribbons. +When Gateskill was leader of the Labour party. +When he proposed a shilling on prescriptions, one shilling and that's At that time, Ni Bevan started himself started to deteriorate. +But I can remember Ni Bevan calling Gateskill for everything for this. +It spoilt his whole scheme of things. +Gateskill. +And of course from then they've increased, increased, increased and still it's The National Health Service is a farce now. +It strikes me though that at that time, at the time of the forty five government that, rather than nationalization, the National Health Service became +That was the centre . +the centrepiece. +The National Health Service was the greatest thing, the greatest achievement of the Labour government. +There's no doubt about that. +If people just sit and think about it, the National Health Service you know? +Security and Health that's from the cradle to the grave, it's a wonderful a wonderful thing. +And Ni Bevan obviously felt that for he fought tooth and nail to get it through. +Mind you must remember at the time when he was fighting to put it through, the bill through parliament, the whole B M A, British Medical Association were against him, to a man. +They had the Socialists Medical Association well there'd be they'd be on the side of Bevan. +But er the B M A were totally and absolutely against this er National Health Service. +But he won. +And it was mainly destroyed by the Labour party, future Labour parties. +Mainly destroyed. +I'd like to take you back to one or two more aspects of your actual work on the railways. +Erm from the war onwards. +Er you were still a head shunter for I think about five years after after +Aye. +Aye. +the war. +Er I wanted you to maybe describe some more of the responsibilities and duties you had in that job. +I mean, making up the rosters for instance. +Er how was that done and how were they handed out and that that kind of thing? +Aye well you see there was a a local departmental committee, of which I was the employees' employees' side, of which I was secretary. +And it was a responsibility of the L D C. it was the management's side and the workers' side combined. +Their responsibility was to see that the rosters were properly worked out you see. +And er inevitably of course, we always fell to the secretary you see. +And I used to make out the rosters. +. And then soon after that, the rest day, the five day week came out you see, where you got a rest day every week. +And it was the L D C who were responsible for making out the rest day rosters you see. +The top management didn't bother about that, they know left it to the local you see. +As long as it didn't you see. +Now it was strange at the time, I only represented the shunters and the guards and the lower grades, I didn't represent the supervisors, yard inspectors at the time. +But the yard one of the yard inspectors came to me and said, I wonder if you would make up a roster for the supervisors . +Of which there were six, seven. +So I made a roster out for the ro for the supervisors which meant that every week they got a rest day. +One day in the week off. +And every month, they got the Friday, Saturday, and Sunday off you see. +Three days off every month. +And this was great. +They adopted it right away, the management thought it was too m too long away from their work you see. +But the supervisors was fair away with this. +So that was adopted. +See? +Now that roster stayed from about nineteen When was it? +Er I don't know, nineteen fifty, right until the day I left in nineteen seventy six. +That roster was still in operation, the supervisor's one. +Er that was one of the duties. +Then of course, suggestions was another thing for the improvement in working practices and working conditions. +There was always there were always adverse against the management. +The management were always against carriage cleaners getting a rest day, they didn't think they needed one. +Imagine, because they were a lower grade they'd meant nothing you see. +So I made out a roster, and there were over a hundred carriage cleaners at and I made out a roster for them. +Rest day rosters. +And I put it to the some of the women and men cleaners you see, How would like a rest day roster? +Oh that would be wonderful, that'd be great. +You see. +Oh that'd be great. +See and they got a Monday this week, a Tuesday next week, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, that's how I made it you see. +And then Saturday, it meant they got off on the Sunday and the Monday, they got their long weekend you see, when they reached the Saturday. +Oh this'd be wonderful. +Oh but we'll not get it, we'll not get it Jimmy, No. +Won't get it. +I said, Well we'll have a go anyway. +Well it took about six month with me arguing and arguing and arguing. +Oh it would take too many spare people rest day . +So, Oh aye, they take about twelve rest day staff, extra staff to allow it. +Well I got it whittled down to six extra. +And I settled for that. +You see, And it was a just a bit of a trick, I was putting in the rosters you see. +Now duty rosters, trains, all the different trains that have got to be clean you see, and I was putting in ten minutes less than really would be required you see, and that saved er hours you see, saved hours. +And I brought it down to half a dozen staff. +It was a bit of a twist but the management didn't notice it. +Or they didn't care. +And it was conceded. +that er the railway wasn't satisfying my my my needs. +You see, when I became an inspector on the railway eventually,it was like a fire being damped down. +You see? +And that's when I felt that I wished I had of went for a career in the trade union or I felt that had I done that, I would have been satisfying something that was there. +That's always been there. +However it was too late then. +I had made my decision and I'd taken the first step. +Now the first step was from as I said earlier, I had stayed too long at I thought. +With my family growing up I was needing more money and er that's when I decided I would apply for a foreman's job at . +Well to cut a long story short, and bear in mind the fact that seniority and everything took precedence over e everything else, all things being equal. +Er I got the job at . +I was quite interested in that actually because you you did imply at an earlier stage that er although seniority was the the important principle in ge in gaining promotion, er there was no harm done if in your favour you know. +Aye. +Er . +Well what with my at , for years at , I had made my mark, not only at but throughout the East of Scotland with trade union activities and various other things. +And I'm not sure whether I was the senior man or not. +I assumed I was the senior man but one of my mates, a very good pal of mine to me, a senior shunter, he says, Oh you'll get the job, they'll be wanting to get rid of you Jimmy. +You see. +Well anyway, I don't know what was true or not or what what was right, but I thought I'd got it through seniority and we'll leave it at that. +I got the job at and I'd had e I'd had experience, I knew that going to was no problem. +Cos was a small small . +compared to . +was about ten times the size of it. +And only catered for Street Station, which was a small station, it was being run down at that time, Street Station. +See this was after the nationalization and the policy of the railway executive at that time was to instead of two stations in one town, they were all they were reducing it to one station you see. +And was the most modern station so it was obvious Street was on the way out. +However, that would be a few years, take a few years before that happened. +So anyway I got to and I was amazed at the opposition I got from the two or three staff shunters at . +You see, to let you understand, this was maybe about four or five years after nationalization and prior to nationalization of course, was under the L M S, Street Station and were under the L M S and was under the L N E R. But when I arrived at , I heard them talking about the Callie see, the Callie railway. +That was pre-L M S, see, Caledonian Railway. +Now that shows you how far back they were and how how their thoughts ran. +And they called me an N B man, a North British Railway man. +Where I was a L N E R you see. +So the the their thoughts were away in the past and they hadn't moved I thought and I learned later that my thoughts were correct. +They hadn't moved with the times. +They were still doing jobs at that were long since dispensed with at you know, marshalling and that and methods that adopted and the shunting techniques. +But what amazed me as I said before was their antagonism to strangers. +It's laughable but at the time it wasn't laughable but when you think back, this man that I was put on with, he was acting guard foreman. +He come from he was . +And er he thought he was the bee's knees you see, he thought he knew everything about railways. +Because he knew the job at . +And er he wouldn't tell me which You see there's there's things in the railway in every place in every job there's er dodges you know. +And techniques that are peculiar to that job. +But he didn't tell me that and I knew there would be you see, but he didn't tell me these things. +However, it took me two or three weeks to learn them, to pick them up. +For he wasn't clever enough to hide them, exactly, he stumbled through you see and and er of course they they were exposed you see, for all to see. +And I was there with my ready eyes to pick them up. +Er for instance, he would get a message the phone would ring and he would answer it. +He always rushed to the phone, he wouldn't let me answer the phone you see. +Always rushed to the phone. +And he would get a message from er Street Station from the station inspector. +Er he wants two two or three coaches for this and that and for a special to Liverpool you see, he'd need it later that afternoon. +And er he wouldn't tell me what the message was you see, he would just say, Well go across to the other yard and shunt out a couple of coaches you see. +Wouldn't even tell me the coaches you know. +And we'd go across and I would help him to couple up the various coaches and that. +And we'd shut them out shunt them out and then we'd collect the two coaches and take them over to the main yard, and put them under a cleaning platform you see for the cleaners. +And he would go away, he wouldn't say, Come on we'll go down to the cleaners and tell them , he would go away himself you see. +And I wasn't a sheeplike person you see, I didn't follow him I just let him go. +And er then I would see the two two or three cleaners coming out and going on to the coach and cleaning them, and I would say to them, What are they for? +Oh er they're for some job at Street, they're wanting it for some job or other. +Didn't even tell me it was for a special train for er Liverpool you know. +To go to Carstairs and connect with the Glasgow portion to Liverpool. +And that went on for two or three weeks you know, and I said to the the station master at when he came across on his once a week visits he would come across. +How are you getting on Jimmy? he would ask. +I says, Och, this is a a toy place it is. +This is not a railway. +I says. +They're a way back about a hundred years here. +What do you mean? +What do you mean? +He says. +I says, Well er we're going about here, the two shunters are going about here and they're vying with each other to see how much they can ignore me. +I says, Why let me go on see I was getting about a month learning you see. +I says, I'll go next week This was after three weeks, I says, I'll go on next week and I'll take over the job of yard foreman, and I'll do it the way I want it done, not the way that . +Do you think you'll be ready for that? +I says, I have been ready for the last week. +I says, a fortnight at this place is long enough to pick it up. +I says, So I want to cut the ordeal short, I says, and I'll go on next week. +That were three weeks you see. +Oh well, I'll tell er Street then. +Well I got word from Street that er I was to take my full month you see. +That was er this chap who answered the phone, Aye that's er Street saying you can take the full month for learning. +And I says, Give me the phone then. +What are you doing? +What are you I says, I'm ringing. +Was that the station master Aye. +So I got onto the sta I says, Hello is that the station Mr ? +Yes. +Yes. +I says, This is J at er . +I says er, I want to go on as yard foreman next week. +Oh you're supposed to . +I says, Aye, but I'm fed up with this I says, I'm learning nothing. +I says er, I want to take charge, and I'll do it the way that I think it should be done. +So after a few words, he says, Oh well, right I'll put you through as yard foreman from next week. +So I took on as yard took on as yard foreman on the following Monday. +Much to the resentment of the other you see. +And I didn't go about it in a bombastic way or anything like that, I just gave them their orders you see, the two shunters. +I says, What we'll do, first of all you know, we'll go across to the other yard and shunt out so and so and so and so. +You see you used to get a a sheet from Street for the week's work. +And then any extra specials that come up in the meantime, they would send out send out a wee typewritten sheet you see. +So that's where I got my instructions, very simple no bother at all. +So I took over from then and er I just ignored what they was you know. +We usually this way and that way. +I said, Ah well we've got to be different. +I says, We're doing it the right way, the proper way now you see. +And er well things got on and er gradually I had . +And they were had no alternative but to accept it. +Well I was there about eighteen months and I was still active as a branch secretary for the N U R, the Portobello Branch. +And er there was two or three or the carriage cleaners, men and women at , who er were in Edinburgh number one branch of course. +And er they used to come to me and ask things about what they should do and did I think they had a claim for this and that you know, and I used to tell them you see. +But I forget the exact date it was fifty o two or fifty one or fifty two but the N U R were threatening a strike to strike over a wage claim. +They'd been offered something, two or three percent and they's rejected it and they were threatening strike action. +And er their members were agreed to strike action. +They'd taken a ballot and the members had agreed. +And er I wrote to the No we'd taken the decision at the Portobello branch th that Sunday that we support When we supported the executive decision, the strike for our just demand you see. +And this got out, seemingly to the news. +The Edinburgh Evening News. +And I was working at this day and being a Monday or a Tuesday after the Mo Sunday meeting. +And one of the reporters came out and er he asked me he's heard that our decision was to go out for a strike you see. +Well Edinburgh number one were noncommittal. +They just said they would support any action the executive took you see. +But Portobello branch went further They were urging you see, the national executive committee, to take industrial action immediately you see. +This is what they believed the news were out for you see, a statement. +And I says, You come into the foreman's hut, to the reporter I says, and I'll give you a statement. +See I says, I'll give you the the resolution that was adopted at Portobello. +I says, And I'll add something else, the secretary's view. +And again I wrote it out for him you know, wrote it all out. +Now, I says, er I'll read it out to you. +He says, That's what I want. +So you know, and there was quite a big column, there were one column in the Edinburgh Evening News, and it's in my my wee red book there. +at Portobello branch you see, urging the national executive to take immediate action in support of their claim for so and so . +So this er oh was great news for the carriage cleaners and . +And they were wanting to Some of them anyway wanted to join the Portobello branch. +I said, No no. +I says, We're all one union, I says, it doesn't matter what branch you're in, I says, this is your area you see. +However, things went on very well at after that. +I was accepted after about three month or four month you know, I was accepted as one of the +It's interesting though that that you talked about that sort of identifying with the old companies, even in the nationalization days. +Aye. +Was that a common thing was that something that I presume +I unders +it wasn't unique to . +I understand that this was pretty common, quite common throughout British Railways, it took a few years to to knit together you know, the nationalization and the fact that we were just the same railway after that. +You see. +The L M S used to be the biggest of the railways you see. +And er they thought they were the big cheese you see,th th th those who worked there . +But er they were no better than and no worse than the the others either. +. However, after about eighteen month at , as a yard foreman, as I say I was still branch secretary of Portobello branch, and carrying on as usual, er I put in for There were this yard inspectors job wanted at Street Station. +And I applied for that job, and I got it. +Now yard inspector at er Street Station, seemed a there were there were va there were only f half a dozen sidings, outside the station at Street, see. +Outside the platform and er as I said before, it was like , they only had small trains you know, five coaches was the biggest train they had you know. +And that was the Liverpool. +The rest were maybe three or four coaches. +Because they went from s from Street Station. +To the Edinburgh, at least the Scotland passengers, to Carstairs to connect up to the main Glasgow Central to Liverpool, Birmingham and there were all these places. +And London. +So it was quite a simple job and of course, as yard inspector at Street, my job was to see that the s platforms were always When one train left you had to put the other train in to get the shunters to shunt another train into the empty platform you see, for the next the next shunt and that and if a train came in from Carstairs you see, you seen that the pilot and phoned the signalman, let the pilot into number five dock. +But er it was quite a simple job and er I liked it, then now and again I used to walk down to the station master's or the station inspector's office you know, have a chat with him and and get the gen on what was for the weekend working you see. +And er they had a quaint a queer way of working. +Which the head station inspector was an old chap Douglas was his name. +Dougie we called him. +And what Dougie said, that went for the rest of them. +They all kowtowed after Dougie you see. +Because he was the you know,Anyway,this day I was just standing blathering away to Dougie and one of the inspectors says, Er the Monday holiday, This would be the Friday the previous to the Monday. +Er on Monday the Edinburgh holiday, now er I'll need for the Birmingham, will we need an extra coach for that? +And Dougie would say, Just a minute. +And he'd look up a book. +And it was with writing in it his Dougie's writing in it. +Er oh aye. +Aye we better have two coaches extra like. +Instead of three there'd be five you see. +And I wondered how he deduced you know, how he got this. +And I learned after a few weeks that how he got this was There was no weather forecast as we know them now you know on the television. +But it'd been a good day last year, on the Monday holiday, and they had needed two coaches you see. +So he was taking it for granted or or chancing his hand that this Monday for this year was going to be another good day. +You see. +So he'd put two on. +If it was only one for the Liverpool ex you know, one extra for the Liverpool, you see, it'd be the same this year. +What an qu antiquated way of working. +You know. +But anyway it seemed to work all right so. +And that's how they they got their +Were there a lot of these er particularly amongst the older men and the and the inspectors and that that kind of thing, were there a And you've talked about , a lot of the old ideas were still +Aye. +persistent. +Did you find that so many it took a long time for change to take place +Oh aye. +Aye. +You see th at every station, every depot, on British Rail, there were always one man thrown up as being the one who knew everything. +You see. +The leader. +Everybody looked to this person for guidance see. +And that in itself was a form of antiquity you know, it it it is it went back to the old days you see. +And it it was laughable you know, at times. +When you asked phoned up say from from the yard at Street, and asked an inspector, the shift er the man on the shift, Er what about er tomorrow? +Saturday. +Do you not think we'll need another extra coach on the the Manchester? +Or something like that. +Oh er aye Jimmy, well, I'll tell you, I'll see Dougie when he comes out. +You see, +and I'll let you know. +That was the style of it, they couldn't see, couldn't make up their own mind. +They were afraid to ta but if they'd had that if they'd told me to provide an extra coach for the Manchester as I was suggesting, Dougie would have come out and taken strips off them for You see. +I i it was a queer queer thing but that's what happened. +That's what happened, not only at Street but other places . +But more so at the ex-Callie. +With the ex-Callie, they took longer to adapt to nationalization I think, than the rest of the railway. +However er I got quite friendly with a signalman at er Street. +The signal box was just up er where I was stationed you see. +And er there were some great characters among the signalmen. +But they too were er old fashioned in their way. +They were old men of course, getting old men you know, at the sixty mark. +And er Oh no, this is how we do it here, no. +No. +But er if I would suggest but if you're er letting that train out first you see and . +Ah no no no. +We don't want to upset the working and . +They wouldn't If you suggest anything you suggested anything to expedite the working,you're wasting your time, wasting your breath. +They would go on their own merry way you see. +Because that's how they'd done it twenty years ago, and that's how they're going to do it till they retire. +So it were no good fighting against them I mean they I used to let them please theirself you know, and er just because they were quite happy to go along that way. +I was gonna ask you that, you you moved into er more a a more supervisory capacity when you +Aye. +moved into the foreman and inspector jobs. +Er what sort of relationship did you have with with the men, did you er particularly thinking that you you were still for a long time after that, the the branch secretary of the union as well you know . +Aye. +How did that square up? +Aye well,there was I wasn't aware of any what you'd call transition. +You know, from the wages grade to the supervisory grade you see. +I wasn't aware of that. +That said, I got to know my men my staff and everybody of course has their peculiarities you know, the different thingummies. +And I put myself out to find out what they liked best. +And what they liked their job How how they liked their job. +And what part of their jobs they liked best you see. +And it was surprising how they responded, and I used to cater for their their whims and wishes you know. +As long as they were doing what they were expected to do you see. +But for instance,say we had two shunters, I had two shunters. +One liked coupling up coaches you see, and then the vestibules, the canvas vestibules joining the coaches together for passengers to walk through. +See. +If One of them I found, loved He was an expert as he said at coupling vestibules. +See. +And the other one thought he was good at the buckeye coupling. +You see. +He knew all about it. +Because I had taught him about it you know, from coming from . +And I would say to him, look Joe, you know what to do with the Buckeyes, I say, You go across to the yard and get them ready, set them you see. +And you,, you're good at the vestibules, the canvas vestibules you know, concertinas like. +I says, You get them coupled up and I can rely on you to get them right you see. +Well that's how I I played my shunters. +Now I found that I got results that way. +And I could rely on them because they were good at that job you see, particular job. +And I used to tell them they were good at it. +And that satisfied them and it satisfied me. +And I got on swimmingly with them. +The same with the signalmen, I would go up to the signalman and tell him, Well on the other shift you know, they would have left that train away first, before they left that other one in you see. +Ah but No not on my shift. +My shift we do it this way. +You see. +And you got to know all these things, you got to know the peculiarities of what they liked best doing you see, and everything like that. +So that was my way of of working with the staff. +I didn't oppose them in any way you see. +I was getting the best out of them. +Because, what they were doing was their best. +You see. +And that satisfied me. +They were never never any hassle. +On my shift you know. +And I just don't know . +Do you think it was important that er or do you think your experience coming though the was important? +Oh invaluable. +That was Aye. +You see, coming right up from coal boy and lamp-man you know, porter, signalman and parcel porter, leaving parcel porter, yard foreman and then shunter, guard foreman. +I mean it was invaluable, you were learning everything there was to to know, you know. +It was a I was gonna ask you you know,wh when you moved from shunter to foreman, you had responsibilities for a lot a lot besides the shunting. +Mm. +But as you as you're describing there, coming through the grades, +Yeah. +you'd already had some at least some former knowledge of all the other aspects of the railway in any case. +Aye. +You see, when I became yard inspector, the staff soon got to know that they couldn't kid me, they couldn't kid me you see. +Because I knew their job, I'd done their job you see. +Each one of their jobs I'd done except the carriage cleaning of course, but of course that was a straightforward job, cleaning carriages. +But shunters and all the rest I'd done their job. +I'd come up the hard way you see. +And I knew the tricks of the trade. +So there were no good in the fighting against me. +You see. +I could tell at a glance whether the job was done or not. +In fact I could hear the click of the b buckeye coupling. +And the ring the bell you see. +And I would say, I'd maybe be about twenty or thirty yards away from the coach, and I'd say to the shunter when he come out, That buckeye's not caught. +You'd better go back and uncouple the and split it again and set the buckeye. +The jaw's open . +I could even tell thirty thirty or forty yards away just by the ring see. +If it was caught. +If if it hadn't caught, it was a dull sound you see, a thud. +Whereas if it caught, there were a cling a ring you see. +So these wee things I I knew and er my staff soon found you see that well they just had to go along and do the job as it should be done, you see, and they were no good at kidding me that it had been done, for I used to examine everything that was done you see. +If I gave them an order to couple up a full line of maybe ten coaches, I wouldn't take it for granted that they'd done it, I'd walk up the coach, one walk up one side, down the other side and I wouldn't If there were a heating valve not open, if they forgot that you see, I wouldn't do it for them, I would go back and I'd say, that S K third from the back end, the heating valve is not pulled down, you've missed it, you'd better When you're up that way, just pull it down you see. +So that was If I'd done it you see, that was spoiling them. +So it was the likes of that and these things that got me to know my staff and got my staff to know me. +And there were no hass +building a relationship with your +Building a relationship, that's right. +And there were never any cause for arguments or never any rows or arguments and that, and no shouting and bullying and er No that started at er at er Street as a yard inspector. +And er well I was there for eighteen month as a yard inspector. +And I enjoyed it, it was quite good, I got on well with the staff. +And er then there was a vacancy That was a class three inspector's job at Yard inspector's job at Street. +So the the inspectors were actually graded as well. +Graded. +They were er a grade five, that was the lowest inspector, grade four But eventually the grade er five and four were done away with. +But anyway, that was a grade three I was in. +And there was a grade three carriage cleaning inspector advertised for . +So I thought I'd put in for that, it was a lateral move you know, but still it was getting back to my depot and nearer my home. +So I put in for that and I got that. +And er well the carriage cleaning well A carriage cleaning inspector you just, looked after the carriage cleaners and seen that the coaches were right you know and walk along the and examine the coaches after they'd been cleaned you see. +And if they weren't properly done, you'd tell the forewoman that that wasn't in such and such a coach in compartment was needing under the seats were needing cleaning . +She would tear into her staff you see and get it and then er an along the corridors you know, there's ledges up above the doors as they slide into each compartment. +And I used to go along with a well a finger you see and, That's not been dusted you see. +And er just tell the forewoman . +That was it. +But you were responsible. +You see, when the trains arrive from at Waverley, and heard that er one superintendent and Gerald was his name, he was a great boy for going down to Waverley to meet trains coming from . +maybe once a month at that you know, and occasionally just to catch, to see if the trains were properly cleaned you see. +And he used to take his white handkerchief out, and go along the corridors and above these, up on these ledges, with his white hanky. +Imagine imagine a white hanky. +And go along with it. +And if it was dirty, he would go back to his office and phone and phone the yard master and say, So and so coach dirty. +I've been I've been intending to ask you actually about the about the women workers. +Er you you've mentioned them off and on quite a few times er that there +Mm. +that it was predominantly women that were in the carriage cleaners. +Yes. +Er how did you find them as workers e in given that there weren't many women at that time er in +Well +a a manual working environment if you like. +At aye and even at , there was one woman in charge of them. +There was a woman in charge of the women workers. +They called her a forewoman you see. +And most of the forewomen See there were one on each shift, three shifts and then there were f a middle shift, a nine to five shift that was four forewomen. +Now the carriage cleaning inspector had a good job if he went about it the proper way. +Now I never if I was going through a train or going down a platform, and there were two or three carriage women carriage cleaners you know,I wouldn't speak to them about their work. +I'd maybe have a chat chat with them you know, personal like. +But I wouldn't talk to them about their work. +I went to the forewoman you see. +And I told her what was wrong or what wasn't right you see, and what w what was wanted what I wanted done you see. +And that put her in her place you see, and it gave her a position. +And she in of course in turn, she could get tore into the women if they missed anything, see. +Not me, that wasn't my job I thought. +My job, my contact was the forewoman, you see. +So therefore there were never any hassle or or arguments and the forewoman got her place, I gave her a place you see. +And she in turn supervised her her own women staff you see. +So it was as simple as that. +is er the fact that carriage cleaning was probably considered a low grade I think you'd have felt it was +Aye aye. +Was there any feeling amongst the men that er it was not only a low grade, but it was done by women if you if you like? +No you see, the women cleaners done the interior of the coaches, and the male carriage cleaners did the exterior, the brushed you see. +With the X mover that's what they called the solution. +They just put it on you see with a brush and it was a paste you see, all over the coach,and then they had a hose and they washed all that X mover off you see, the X mover was an acid and it ate into the you see, bodywork. +And they So that was the men's job, was the exterior of the coaches. +And the woman done the interior. +So there were all there were a distinction you see, between men and that. +That's what I'm getting at you know, what +Aye. +was the relationship like between the men and women, er the men and women cleaners even? +Ah there were no no bother with them. +There were no bother, they just they were a men er a a male carriage cleaner and the women were women. +That's not my job as it were. +They knew their jobs you see. +That's a man's job, the woman would say. +And the men would say, Oh that's not my job, that's your job. +So there were a distinction in that respect and there were never any trouble. +And there were never any fights that I had that I can remember between men and women or anything like that. +There were squabbles and shouts and screams with women tearing each other you know. +Tearing each other 's hair but of course the forewoman would come on the scene and she would settle it. + +Do you wanna dance all through the night? +La de day de day de tonight oh baby do you wanna dance? +Yeah he from the committee. +You wanna watch out or he'll be having you down at the . +Stuart'll be having you as his star turn. +Where's your dad gone? +Mm? +Where's your dad gone? +Eh? +Oh . +She's acting stupid you know. +Are we gonna have a listen to Coronation Street? +Oh are you trying to shove me mother out again Herbert? +Every time you walk in she +Well +walks out. +well we can all go and listen to Coronation Street. +Alright! +Well you, cos you haven't seen it have you Alison? +You didn't er that did you? +Yeah but I'm saying they're not paying they haven't gotta pay for that machine. +Who hasn't gotta pay for the machine? +Well if they're doing, somebody by hand's doing it, they haven't got that of paying for that machine. +Yeah but the machine could do what a hundred people could do in a day, can't it? +The machine doesn't get tired like people do. +Yeah but I mean +The peo the machine only goes off bad if somebody hasn't been maintaining it. +And all you've gotta do is, with machine is put petrol or diesel or whatever it is to make and check all the oil +And +I know but that offsets the labour is the, labour is the thing that costs a fortune. +Yeah. +Well why don't you do it all before and +Well they do. +and they've got it in but it wants it at different times doesn't it? +So you can't give it fertiliser. +Well I still think that well say you have a big massive thing and, and say it'd take a hundred people mm er I suppose the bigger it is the more economical it is. +But if you only had a small place it'd be more economical to have labour than it would to buy paying out thousands of pounds for machines and +No you don't buy the, they come round and do it for you don't they? +Well alright then +You hire it for a day or whatever it is. +It costs just say for instance two hundred pounds for the tractor and, and his sprayer and er the chemicals on top. +That's done your whole field big field. +Now that two hundred pound will only pay one man for a for a week to do the same thing. +And he's gotta do it a few times, so then the cost becomes and, and you like let's be fair, we've had summers where it's the weeds er the weeds haven't grown, but you get a wet summer and the weather warms and the wet and the weeds go peooow up like that. +So that's, and then it doesn't stops +Well alright then, why can't he put bark on it ? +Well that, it costs. +from everywhere. +Do it that way. +But it's still costs isn't it? +Well then if you put a lot of bark on it and with vegetables, so they want fertilizer +Well +You don't know what I am. +I do I couldn't care less what you are Iris +Did you know seven days? +In where? +In . +Oh aye, yeah. +Yeah. +And do you know what, if th if they don't vote, if you don't vote what you always have done . +I know. +That's why . +Yeah but if you have a secret vote how do they know what you voted for? +They don't know. +I know you have. +If you come round and +Well that's generations isn't it? +But how many youngsters take take any notice of what their mam and dad says? +Yeah but who, what ? +He's had,offer offered to stand down if he can get a younger person that will run it. +Put Sammy in. +But that, I mean he's offered to stand down. +It's getting a bit of a nuisance to him stuck there for twenty seven years. +Well he lives the life of luxury. +It's not a nuisance going off for his weekend break in the . +No I mean weekend out there. +Oh me mam's back again now. +I'll get you sorted out mum. +Between ? +Yeah by the airport, yeah. +And he has them cows and all that there, them that was +Well I'll get you through with it then I can sort the tea out. +Do you want now? +Yeah and then Herbert and Alison won't be long. +Where did we go on a Sunday and we passed there? +And we, all them motorbikes was on er the edge. +Yeah. +That's where it is, aye. +Yeah, well we +the fish and everything's on. +Yes but I thought his was the what's name there. +It's the church there, there's some special church on his ground. +Cos they was waiting to take it back weren't they? +Yeah well he, he said that he goes there he can grow his vegetables then. +Well he's +Is your arm getting better now? +You what love? +Getting better now? +Aye getting better now. +Chris'll be off on Wednesday. +I can move me arm about and do me exercises and couple of weeks I'll be getting fighting fit. +now, well you know where we're up to. +You know what's +Well I . +Oh alright then, so if John Major gets elected then I'll still +Yeah. +No because you're paying extra thirty five pence for +Alright then, so I'm gonna have one pound sixty five a week? +Yeah. +Providing you don't put any petrol in your vehicle. +And you don't do any drinking. +Fine, so you've got that. +That, that'll suit me. +I, I won't put no petrol in the vehicle then and I won't do no drinking. +Okay? +Course +Stuart's going to be one thirty five down. +And even more when he gets his car back on the road, so +He's not putting his car back on the road. +I don't know why he isn't. +put his car back on the road. +. +But I think once they've gone off the road now it's gonna be gonna be worse when the, when the engine stops ? +When you take anything off the road left it a couple of days without running it, even on a Sunday, it'd be a harder to get it back going again on Monday. +Well the thing is if he can get four hundred quid why doesn't he get one of them new bikes that Sinclair's brought out? +Well, they run for an hour on a battery without pedalling, three hours if you pedal. +It's a bike it's electric. +It's a battery. +It's a bike and you go like that to get it going and then you, it rides along. +Isn't it? +I've no idea. +I've not even +four hundred and odd pounds. +Oh that's not bad is it? +Cos you can pay that for a blooming mountain bike. +Yeah. +And it'll run for an hour without pedalling. +If you pedal you can get as much as three hours. +A penny it costs a penny to recharge it, it recharges in an hour. +So if you go +No but if you go from here to work isn't it? +Plug it in in the what's name, pull lead off it and plug it in and then it'll +a penny, say here's a penny. +And then he's ready to come back home again isn't he? +Plug it in here give your mam a penny. +Er give him a penny +That's what it is. +Rechargeable battery. +Well say I moved and lived in Gambia. +I'd be able vote there would I? +No. +You've gotta be a resident of there. +If I lived there I mean and bought a house. +Well no, not necessary. +You're classed as a foreigner. +As an Englishman. +So all these Pakistanis and they can't vote? +They're re once no. +If they but they come to live here don't they? +Well that's what I mean, if I went to live in Gambia. +And I bought a house +Ah but you've got a British passport. +You're not a resident of Gambia. +You're a British +they don't know. +And you can vote loads of times there. +You're not on a register. +They put a stamp on you. +Stamp on where? +On your hand. +Well it must be able to wash off. +Well aye +And you don't have to be twenty one either. +You don't have to here, it's only eighteen here. +No but twenty one aren't you? +You've got to be twenty one to vote there but if you're, you're eighteen and you go in and somebody else says you're twenty one you can vote. +The why the Pakistanis can vote in this country they've got a British passport. +No but I mean there are people that come in here and just living here. +Yeah the Pakistanis! +They've got British passports! +This is what all the trouble's about, they've all got British passports. +Well why are they allowed to have a British passport? +the empire we allowed them to have British passports didn't we? +They can get them because they are British. +Pakistan's British? +Well it was, it was in the empire. +It's in the commonwealth isn't it? +And Indians and all this. +And this is why we're trying to stop them coming in. +There's ten thousand a week coming in. +Every week? +They're coming in from everywhere. +And this is what the, the what's name now that when it's opened in nineteen ninety two the communist block will be able to come through Germany this way in. +Straight into this country. +And be doing all our they will be gonna come and do all the jobs that we don't want like in, in catering and, and things like that. +All the rough jobs. +They get in here then they bring their families and then they're gonna fill the country up aren't they? +It's only a little tiny country. +The Conservatives are trying to stop it. +Th they're trying to get it through, the bill through. +And Labour won't stop them? +No, Labour will allow them in. +Course, what you've got to think of, Conservatives are the one that started it in the first place. +So they've gotta try and kill it off now. +But the Labour won't. +But they didn't start it. +Some things are very complicated Alison. +You've got to thingybob all through everything. +Anything else you wanna know? +I think what I'll do is erm when totally confused about what they're gonna do and who's gonna be what and +Well you've got to weigh up that and you've got to read the manifesto when it comes out. +What they're going to do for you. +Yes but they don't put it in words like you put, they put it in blooming complicated language, but tell lies. +Don't, read between the lines. +See me and your mum'll know that. +We'll read between the lines. +Me and your mother not your mother and I. +It's me and your mother. +Well that was,the other day?told him about that. +What? +You put Alison, Stuart and me Stuart, Alison and I. +He went oh is it? +Well what did he give it you to read for? +He was writing it, he was just sitting there. +Oh aye. +I wasn't gonna get one was I, no? +Yeah. +Well he suggested it. +He was sitting and he said oh I'll write Iris a few lines. +But he said +? +Yeah he said, but the girl that was with him said that you were very highly honoured to have a letter that length cos usually she gets dear oh I her name's what her but dear whoever, got loads to tell you, love Mario. +That's all she gets every time she gets a letter . +So she said you're highly honoured to have a letter that long. +She's never seen one that long . +O over this election, what you've gotta do is every night, is if you're interested is watch it for the first quarter of an hour of the news every night. +And you will pick up so much then to what's going on. +Yeah but they tell lies! +I know but +They're not gonna tell me if you vote, if you if you vote for me I'm gonna cut your wages and he, he's not gonna tell me +No. +vote for me, I'm gonna cut your wages. +Neil Kinnock will tell you what the Conservatives aren't gonna do. +Yeah. +So John Major will tell you +Will tell me what +they're gonna do. +And, and and Paddy Ashdown'll tell you what the other two aren't gonna do. +They don't tell you what they're gonna do, they just tell you what the other ones aren't gonna do . +Yeah. +Which doesn't mean that they're gonna do it does it? +Well no +It just means that they're not gonna do it . +Yeah. +And they're all gonna tell lies and it's gonna be the dirtiest election that there's ever been, this. +There can't be a dirtier one than this because they've started already. +Do they're all gonna tell lies. +And they're gonna tell lies and it's gonna be a dirty lies. +So it's not . +So you're not gonna pick up anything . +It's going to be the dirtiest election. +They're going to mu throw mud at everybody. +Everybody's going to be what's named and this that and the other. +Glenys will be what's named running up and down the wall. +They're going to,th they have a go at her don't they, Glenys? +And Neil, let's be fair +I mean they have a go at all of them. +it's not gonna be right for somebody isn't it? +I think if god come back down and to be prime minister he's not gonna be right for everybody is he? +Oh . +They was on about this and er they was on about that. +That was a thing that come on and they said now when if when god was here and he did a miracle of the loaves and the fishes somebody would turn round and say there was no salt and vinegar. +and then and then he said when he turned the wine, they would say well we wanted white wine not red wine. +Well it is true though isn't it? +Whoever it, whoever it is it's not gonna be right for everybody. +Oh god! +But it, that was on here. +Because he was doing complaining and all that then this, this one er Roger said that. +wouldn't be any salt and vinegar. +Or somebody would have said well we wanted brown bread, not white bread . +Well Alison let's go and get +What we did was he draws them out every morning cos I collared him stuck the towels over his shoulders and said just put us them over there. +Didn't I? +Yeah but was he bringing them out for other people as well? +Yeah. +He wouldn't let them have them out when we were there. +You couldn't fetch them from the pool. +We wasn't carrying +No these weren't the pool ones were they? +No. +They were somewhere else. +On the right hand side, you come out and on to the patio, you could get them from down the garden there. +You know where we was before? +The other time we went. +By the pelican. +From down there. +Did, +No. +yeah. +And carrying them all the way to the +Yeah. +To the beach. +Did you give him anything? +No. +. +Oh we give him a fiver. +No we didn't. +We did. +I thought he was . +That was another thing. +You said about buying Jimmy a drink. +What time was it you were buying Jimmy drinks? +All day. +Well he shouldn't have been having drinks. +Well perhaps that's why the other bloke got so funny with him. +Just check he's got enough fags up there will you? +Your mum wants to know if you've got your vest on. +Yeah. +And your liberty bodice. +She's got her dad's, dad's vest on and dad's longjohns. +And longjohns. +Yeah. +Oh +hundred and twenty. +Oh god! +Two hundred +What's two hundred ? +hundred and twenty. +What? +What? +No but he said two hundred and twenty minimum wage. +lot of people +Yeah. +Who's switched this front light off? +You have +I haven't been in here. +Have you done it? +Yeah. +Oh. +Well what you shouting about then? +Oh I didn't te forgot to tell you about the taxi guy who came. +with er . +Stops the car gets out open the door . +. And then he stopped again do his pools. +Do you want me to make him his tea? +Yeah you can do. +Cos you can but nobody's gonna make them are they? +er I don't know which one to order with them. +I can't get hold of her now. +We've gotta order the stuff before we can do it. +And she didn't say which? +No she just said carry on. +Oh. +Couldn't you get hold of her yesterday? +No. +Is this right? +Have a look at this. +What's that? +One's with and one's with new stuff. +I think she wants the new stuff. +But Are you gonna get them ? +You want the key to the car don't you? +Pardon? +If you want, if you're going in the car the keys inside. +It's just one I'm taking out and lying on the floor. +What? +I'll just tea up there cos she has a tablet doesn't she? +Yeah. +Can she have one after? +No, I'll give it to her. +Er or shall I leave her a piece up there and give her her tea cos she knows it's ready? +Yeah. +Okay. +You can get days where you feel more tired than others don't you? +But you had a late night last night. +Yeah. +Come on little 'un. +Pardon? +What do you mean he looks better as a woman? +He's a handsome lad. +But you never know do you? +What do you mean? +Geroff +Alison. +What? +Come here because they'll be here shortly. +. +Come on in. +In here. +Come! +What have you done with ? +They're all . +Look at little snuggles. +We're only trying it out. +What's happened? +Double exposure. +Two people? +What, look at little snuggles. +Aah . +Jason, his name was. +No it wasn't. +I look like a witch there. +Bit like me mother. +No but you didn't have a tan though did you? +That was the first morning that was. +Look at that one. +Oh my god! +You look like you've got all over . +This, this was supposed to be a a sexy +That was a +adoring look. +Yeah, must agree I'm not very good at adoring looks. +Oh I look like a model there. +This was that first morning wasn't it? +That'll be Thursday morning this. +Where you look like . +There, look at that face and the fag in me hand. +That's . +That's me mother. +There's one of you sneezing in there. +And there's Barry oh don't take pictures. +Oh don't. +Look, +Well he never got embarrassed. +Why didn't you have your photo took like that with them? +I had to stand up and bloody do that Suzie's how does it go? +How does it go, that? +That +One +One +smart fellow +one smart fellow he felt smart. +One smart fellow he felt smart. +One smart fellow he smell fa Well he kept looking at me didn't he? +Good that, isn't it? +No, I've gotta show you this one this way. +They're not bad at all. +Here you are, look. +when I took it . +Didn't go where? +To this compound you didn't see before. +Well if you get the others out you'll know that this was all bush wasn't it here? +And he didn't have the wall up. +Barry's look. +Upside down. +Oh he does it upside down +He's and holding on to. +her eyes out when he went. +That's a nice . +nice . +He was there when we were there. +Only take three . +Only take three. +It'll only take three. +When I got up, when I come back for me things me knickers were full of sand +Well you're out at the edge of the sand aren't you? +She was frightened to death. +Oh that's the one where you said turn round +Yeah, have you seen his nose? +Study the end of his nose. +Oh he's got a +It's like a big boil. +And this is the posters probably taken them well you can't zoom very well can you? +That's a good one. +Well where's the one I took of you in the tree? +It might be on the other ones. +Oh the two of us in the tree? +Yeah. +Look at him there. +Oh my god. +Look at me leg! +What happened to me leg ? +It's bent. +I couldn't fit them all in. +now. +Oh no . +These are dreadful aren't they? +What? +These here. +Well I was only experimenting. +There's no ba that's a +Oh it's dreadful. +That is. +That's a belter that. +Oh I like that one. +Dreadful. +And that's dreadful. +I look like a witch there. +Yeah. +What's new? +Ow! +Your mother looks wonderful in them though doesn't she? +Absolutely wonderful. +Your mother looks well on these photographs though. +Your father's a nice chap as well. +He looks absolutely grand. +What? +What have you said on there now? +He stands over me and says I'm not doing it then he stands over me oh god it's gone, it's gone, it's oh look pick them up, oh what's he gonna do? +Oh how many do you want? +Five Don't you ? +Yeah it's like +Mother +you Alison. +Mother, if you want to +Answer phone. +do it you ring up next time. +And where's nan going off ? +She's like you when you're when I'm on the phone. +You don't have anybody interfering with you when you're answer the phone. +Well Aren't you gonna get changed? +That's it. +You'd know you'd know what you'd had to go through if you . +Ooh! +Ooh! +Dear me. +Go away. +on the phone mum. +She's not comi oh what do you want me to do, pick her up and carry her over to the house? +God Stuart, you are stupid. +I didn't like to mention it but she er came in +yellow thing +What yellow thing? +No no no no no. +It had some yellow stuff all over it. +Whatever it was. +They use er herbs or leaves or +Spices. +There's your mother there look. +He's ninety odd isn't he Alan? +Him. +Seventy +Sixty. +No he's ninety odd. +Oh yeah ninety . +When he had Birani +Cos seventy odd when he had Birani. +Yeah. +He's Birani's dad? +Dad, yeah. +And the twins's dad. +Eh? +And the twins's dad. +The twins's dad? +Yes the twins. +You know the two baby twins? +The dad is the father of the twins. +He's the father of the twins. +They're Birani's brothers aren't they? +Well half because second wife. +Well who's the one +Second wife. +Who's the one, the one with the +Yeah. +Because them twins +Them twins were on on the +No they're the twins that were hanging off that young girl weren't they? +Yeah. +On that young girl. +Suckling. +Suckling. +Suckle. +Yeah . +They were hanging off this young girl. +Well they do feed one another 's you know, it's called families. +Yeah well +Well I don't know. +. I could do a better job than you and Diane. +There's your mother . +That's a typical . +I was probably snarling at you then. +Yeah actually because I was . +Well I was looking at you and I'm snarling at you stop bloody messing like you always are messing. +Look at him there. +He looks a picture of innocence doesn't he? +That man there. +That's the ashtray. +Pardon? +No. +Here's that, here's that er lounger, look. +Twenty four ninety nine. +four ninety nine. +what's on the collar? +The collar and the sleeves. +Here's your mother here look. +You probably. +No, I'm . +What are you doing with a begging bowl round your neck ? +Here you are +Eh! +Only joking. +You owe me for this candy, the mother. +Yeah. +Well take it off the you owe me. +Oh alright. +He was there in the hotel because +What mum, what do you want? +Stuart! +. +He was celebrating because he'd just had a . +Do you wanna lolly ice mum? +It's the last one. +Are you gonna take it out me mouth? +Now I'm mister topsy-turvy. +won't it? +Mister topsy-turvy. +Other way +Well he won't have much to do with the greengages the night he's going. +Hey I'll be the soul of discretion. +Yeah. +No chocolate ones left. +Half past four you stupid +Half past four! +I'll be then. +I've gotta have a look at that . +Oh, which one? +Well do you wanna go down and have a look at that now? +While there's workmen there? +Why haven't they finished yet? +? +No. +No! +Alright +It's got all they've got all leaded windows. +Yeah? +Have you seen ? +They've got all, you know, plants in there +Come on then we'll go and have a look at that. +Well I'm gonna have a word with him. +No I'll be +Is your dad +Yes! +Have you finished er +No. +Messing about. +Are you going up tomorrow? +I'll have to put these er in here. +And your mother's got this tape player on here. +Your fantastic mother has got this tape player on here. +Yes. +Well if you +Isn't she a wonderful mother? +If you'd tape it for me you wouldn't have, I wouldn't have to have +Isn't she such a wonderful mother-in-law? +What a wonderful mother-in-law I have got. +I have got. +Isn't she absolutely wonderful? +Just going to the toilet, mother. +Won't be long. +Okay yah. +come here love. +Then you just have to pay a charge don't you? +Where's me glasses? +I brought them in here last night. +They're blinking somewhere. +It's got all over it. +oh they're bloody looking at me. +On the flaming desk. +You must have moved them from up there. +Which is this one? +Does ha haven't you got one on, on that one you've been to see, no? +Yeah that's down the road. +Where's it say? +Let's have a look. +Put, show +In the lounge. +an electric meter. +Well you've gotta have an electric meter in every house love. +Erm not a ten pence one? +No. +Oh. +I thought it was one of them. +It means it's inside, ours is outside. +Oh I thought it was one of them fifty pence ones. +Well what difference does it make? +Well I thought it'd be better if +I don't understand the double panelled radiators not presently connected. +I don't know what it means whether it's electric or wait a minute there's some more. +Did you knock on that door? +There's nobody living there. +Oh that's funny. +I think they might have split up. +Well that's what's happening all the while isn't it? +I liked that one though. +Yeah well you'll not get it much less than that. +It's a a bigger, but I think again you're walking straight into the lounge I think. +I'm not sure. +You are. +Are you? +Yeah. +And your stairs going up . +Just a minute. +No, the dining room. +You put your staircase into the dining room. +Says here. +Oh, so your lounge is at the back? +I don't know, to be honest. +It seems a bit funny for me cos I'd have thought the kitchen was at the back so then you'd have your dining room then . +Yeah but people don't always want like that. +Yeah but +Cos your Auntie Dorothy has her dining room in the front. +And the lounge at the back doesn't she? +Or she did do. +Now she's got it the other way about +Changed it the other way round. +hasn't she? +Yeah. +But erm you can have it as you want can't you? +Yeah. +Natural brick fireplace with tiled hearth and nice +Yeah. +Yeah. +Coal fire. +open fire. +Give her half you can always +you've ate all my cornflakes. +She doesn't usually eat the cornflakes does she? +You can have er you could always have an electric one in there. +Mm. +No problem. +Dining room. +Coved and panelled ceiling with central light natural brick fire grate . +You've got a fire grate in there as well. +With timber mantel housing radiation high speed super gas fire in surround . +It's got a gas fire in that +Oh yeah. +Two thirteen amp sockets, telephone point, understairs storage cupboard with shelving and hanging space . +So you've got th the the stairs are +Boxed off. +Yeah. +Boxed in. +Open plan staircase leading to first floor. +Double panel radiator not presently connected . +I don't know well if it, there's gas fire that, well all it means is they've had it in but the gas isn't connected to the you probably haven't got a boiler . +Let's have a look. +I was thinking though er will we be alright with gas? +We've got gas here. +You've got an electrical point. +Oh is there? +Yeah. +Ample supply of power points. +Complementary hard wall tiling. +Textured walls and fitted . +Have you been in there? +They're big houses them up . +Well you've got eleven by six foot kitchen. +You've got an eleven by eight foot dining room and you've got a twelve by ten foot, ten and a half foot lounge. +Oh +So the lounge is, is er as wide as ours. +And you've got that staircase is in +The dining room. +in the dining room. +Well where's the bathroom, upstairs or down? +Yeah bathroom +Upstairs or down? +Upstairs. +You've got two bigger bedrooms. +You've got telephone points all over the house. +Telephone? +Ye telephone points. +Well fitted with fitted suite comprising bath with Redring . +You've got a shower. +Does that one have a shower across there? +Yeah. +Didn't it? +I don't know. +Hanging over the bath. +Oh. +That's in white though the the bathroom suite in there is in white. +Well it doesn't matter. +The bathr er you can't beat a white bathroom suite anyway. +Well if I wanted to change it that'd be no problem. +Why would it not be a problem? +Well . +Cos he chucked one away the other day because it had a little chip in it. +Cos they're not allowed to put anything in that's not perfect are they? +Well you're dad's not allowed to put them in the van and bring them home either? +He is. +He asked him. +Yeah? +He said do you wanna take it. +He asked everybody if they wanted to take it. +It was a peach one. +It was nice it was. +What, just an ordinary one? +Yeah a . +Eh? +Just an ordinary one not a corner one. +Well it depends how big the bathroom. +Would I be able to fit a corner one in? +I don't know. +I'm not used to these little titchy baths. +And I don't like the metal ones cos they get cold don't they? +What get cold? +Metal baths. +You'll not get a ba metal bath now. +They putting them in there? +Was that a metal? +No that was plastic. +Yeah. +Never mind about that, with it being an old house cos Judy's was a metal bath and it was blooming freezing. +Only up to where the water if you put your back on it it was freezing. +Ooh well get a pillow. +For god's sake. +Which one is it, that one? +Yeah. +No. +That one? +Yeah. +No. +That one. +But you've gotta go round there to get to the back garden. +Yeah. +But +Well who lives there? +I don't know but it's somebody with a motorbike. +And I had a look inside and they've got the kitchen done out in like erm light wood. +You had a look inside where? +In her house. +And she's got +Why did she take you in? +No . +And she's +Well he might have been in. +. +And she's got one of them erm like a stable door inside. +You know inside a proper wooden door with a latch. +Inside because your kitchen sort of comes out doesn't it? +Have you been there? +No. +The kitchen comes out a bit at the back. +I've been in one of the houses, that's how I know it was big, before it was done up. +The kitchen comes out at the back. +But there's only a very small garden. +Well you don't want a big garden. +And it needs a +You've got the pull-in there to park haven't you? +Yeah. +But we had a look last night. +There's not much spaces left. +I don't know who parks there to be honest. +And dad could knock me off on the way to get the papers. +Take him for a walk +Well you can get a telephone. +You've got all the points. +It just means buying a telephone and plugging it in. +And all you pay for is the points then. +You don't pay for the telephone do you? +You don't pay for the connecti oh you just pay for the connector thing. +Yeah. +You don't pay for the +Which is about fifteen pounds. +Well don't set your mind on that. +Cos I don't think Stuart wants to live Well you can't do anything yet. +Stuart liked this one across the road. +That one at least you +It's a better house. +that one you have got only somebody one side of you, you're not attached to the other person. +Oh you'd know it if you lived next door to . +Isn't he noisy, ooh. +What do you mean? +Putting gas in? +No . +Oh. +You couldn't put a porch on the front of that. +Tarmacadamed frontage with boundary brick wall. +Tied access to reach the rear garden lai laid to lawn with flower and shrub borders . +Bloody jungle. +Flagged footpath. +Mature privet screen hedge and mature . +Is it a bigger garden than that one across the road? +No it's smaller. +Same sort of thing, long and narrow. +And it's got a bigger shed as well. +Timber shed and light power. +And light connected. +board utility area with exterior courtesy light. +Freehold with vacant possession on co . +So it's empty? +Mm. +It's got quite a big shed at the back. +Well you can't see property unless you go in it. +Well can't he get an idea as to when he's gonna get his money? +What is she doing, remortgaging the house? +Mm. +about three months. +Deeds are in her name ? +No. +Well yes he's signed it over to her hasn't he? +She's gotta do it sooner or later. +But I can't see why she's changed her solicitor . +Well I can cos he's no bloody good. +What are you doing there love? +Eh? +She's being naughty as usual. +What are you sitting there for? +She's had a ryvita and cornflakes Haven't you ? +Well you can't keep getting the lady out can you? +Course you can. +Where's the other papers Alison? +Pardon? +Where's the other papers? +Oh. +Where are you mum? +Oh. +Do you want another drink mum? +Papers love! +Yeah. +Mummy, where's the paper ? +Round the back here. +Well, I mean, this is important to read this than turn up at the garage. +How much is that? +Four two nine nine five. +Ey I was looking at that one. +It looks quite good that. +It's round the back. +Yeah. +Well how many was there on . +Loads. +Yeah. +Got Cos I went down with dad as well didn't I? +Well we went round and erm we went had a look at them new houses as well. +Which new houses? +Them erm, new houses . +Mm. +And how much were they? +When did you go with your dad? +Monday. +They're the ones I've been looking . +Got a modern fitted kitchen. +You got a +That's got a Turkish bathroom. +Well that doesn't matter! +And you got a double gla , you got double glazing throughout there! +Mm. +And a garage in the front garden. +Yeah. +And it's not overlooked. +there, yeah. +Mm. +Got a hall. +Yep. +You've got all the radiators to +I know , that's the main thing. +Yeah. +as yours. +That's a big one! +Does it go ? +No, not by width. +Width, you got the width and the length there. +And look, you've got a dining room . +Well can't you step in ? +This is metric. +How many metres is the lounge then? +Five five and a half by four and half metres. +But how many metres is the dining room? +Four three. +About four and a half +Yeah. +. +Put the ruler down the wall love, and then you won't have to stretch. +It won't stretch. +Four yeah. +And you've got er the bedroom. +Where? +You got the staircase in there but you will have got ornamental wrought iron leading to first floor archway to your dining room . +That's ten foot by eight foot, will be the back. +Central heating radiators, two sockets, +central heating thermostat . +Your thermostat's in the dining room. +Right. +And you've got a ten foot by nine foot kitchen. +Kitchen. +Yeah. +Comprises extensive range of wall, drawer and base units finished in wooden set with marble effect roll topped work surface . +Oh well that's your cooker point. +Enamel sink and mixer tap inserted , like mine. +Insert into work surface . +So it's . +Complementary +Cupboards +tiling to splash back and prepared preparation areas . +They could turn out that for what it'd cost us to tile them! +I know. +Seven mount sockets plumbing for an automatic washing machine , which is something. +Fluorescent light fittings,entrance door, and cork tile floor . +You could +And you've got your +You got all double glazing see! +You got a . +And you've got your own,landing. +Yeah. +Not in eventually. +water cylinder with emersion heater fitted. +And it's got eleven foot by nine foot bedroom. +Bedroom with central heated radiator, and the sockets, and the coved ceiling. +That means it's the got the l , like ours you've got +Artexing. +you know the, no, it's coved. +Because i at the top it's not straight up to the +Oh right. +Got that funny bit round the edge. +Mm. +And the second bedroom's ten foot by nine +Yeah. +foot. +Two sockets and, and your radiator. +And own bedroom, they're quite cheap. +Yeah. +So same as that. +Bathroom is six feet you've gotta add your bath. +We'll have an extension to it, wouldn't we? +Oh it's nice, that! +Mm. +With shower and shower curtain. +Yeah, fitted. +Wall tiles in bath and shower areas and +Yeah. +radiator. +What's that thing? +Access to these I suppose. +Mm. +And we've gotta +that onto erm see about a telephone. +. +Including telephone point. +Good garden laid to lawn, concrete driveway and parking for several vehicles,garage. +A metal door timber gates to rear garden . +So that's patio barbecue area , so it means it's all done like this. +Ornamental wall with steps to rear garden. +Yeah, must be something similar to this. +And the +Laid to lawn with mature shrub border and fruit trees and a lock timber fencing . +Sounds quite good from that +Yeah. +doesn't it? +You've got your own in the front. +Still that doesn't matter. +You've got your you've got a +We can put a put loads of daffs down middle and , you can put a +hedge or something in the front can't you? +Yeah, or just the . +Well what about ? +Well it's fastened off at the back isn't it? +You're not gonna get out! +You're alright Kimmy you can go in the back garden. +You've just gotta think about these things Kimmy haven't we? +Ha! +God! +It's been reduced so I doubt if you'd get a reduction . +Where's my lighter love? +You've managed +There. +to walk off with lighters ! +It's gone . +.See this one here is something similar. +Well okay , you could have a you could , you could have the chance all there and th you get charged near hundred and fifty quid, but you're getting all that extra! +There might be some things in here. +Yeah, that'll be +Probably be a mortgage on that. +This is a twenty four foot by eleven foot lounge in this one! +But that's forty three! +Ey it comes with +Been reduced +dining room! +No. +I , it comes it is! +No, you've got a lounge and dining area. +Yes. +But the the bathroom is quite . +Yeah. +Eleven foot by nine foot. +And that's electric . +It's gas. +Gas superpoint and electric heater . +Oh, does it say that's ? +Yeah. +What erm +The bedroom . +That all sounds the best one up to now doesn't it? +And that one over . +Where's that? +. +Cos at least there you've got a bit more garden you've got a garage and then +Yeah. +it's semi-detached! +You've also got the double glazing! +And you've got +Which is twelve thousand pound anyway! +To get it double glazed. +Plus all the . +How much did you pay? +Where's your nana? +Here. +Where's here? +In the kitchen. +Well, when you're ready love, your nana's ready! +Yeah, gotta go to . +Where's Road Mum? +Where's what? +Road? +Er er that's from the cross onwards. +Daisy Hill. +On down Daisy Hill. +Oh, well that must be that road down by Daisy Hill. +But they are eighties in Road, isn't there? +Yeah but it must be coming up the Daisy Hill. +Yeah, I know where that is. +Across the road here a bit further up is erm the old people's home isn't it? +Oh, I thought it was down there. +They're nice all round. +And that's got parking space as well, you must go round the back or something. +There's a line. +Yeah. +I'll just go and measure your ba , bedrooms. +Bye! +Yeah, but you've gotta me , don't forget we've got fitted wardrobes, so it's going by it's taking space off for the wardrobe. +I know. +It's the same size as yours up to the wardrobe and up to the door. +So it's a bit small. +But there's a big garden with it as well! +Thirty five. +But that don't say how big the garden is there though do they? +you've got a toilet outside as well. +It says large extensive compliance. +Those . +It's got a brick built storage outbuilding for your garden . +trees and gateway leading to vehicular access road,access road. +Side and rear boundary support . +Whoever designed that don't like gardening! +Well it's the best one . +You've got, ah, but you've got no plants in this one. +Yeah, what I like, the thing with this one is that we wouldn't have again would we? +No. +It's over five thousand more though. +But me and Nige are saving up hard to get some extra money or put another twenty thousand down. +Well once you've got it you still ne that extra to furnish it. +Can't you? +You only want a three piece suite and carpet. +Without carpets in this one. +Yeah. +Are you ca if you . +Shall I go and knock on the door and ask? +No! +You've gotta go through these an ,an , see that one. +They'll tell you to book. +You want something like that. +Other than that you'd get rid of that one again, but you wouldn't have move would you? +Well no. +Three bedrooms. +Yeah. +And it's been reduced. +Probably want a quick sale anyway. +Yeah. +In the position he could be . +Yeah but you don't have to move into it straight away do you? +But as this, how do we pay the mortgage and ma make out of it? +Yeah but I mean you could leave it a while till you got some +Furniture. +bits and bobs. +You can't even he probably, he, he couldn't, you don't have to it they can give you +The thing is if they're still in it it's even better isn't it? +Yeah. +Cos they've kept the heating and everything. +Yeah. +What er,se , oh it's double glazed is it? +And on top of that +There's no central hea , ah yeah there is! +No there isn't! +Ey central heating radi +Heating system. +central heating radiators.. +But it doesn't say what. +Central heating radiator in the dining room. +Yeah. +Central heating thermostat, but it doesn't say what heating it is! +Probably li , like that last houses was. +Yeah. +Yeah, you only wanna buy their three piece suite off of them. +Wouldn't you? +Cos we don't really need the dining room, we eat in here. +And you'd be better off erm getting fitted wardrobes and that because from M F I. +Do you think it's got fitted wardrobes fit in? +Of course, fitted wardrobes will fit in anywhere! +Yeah, but I wanna buy, it's the same size as your bedroom up to the wardrobes and up to the door. +Without, without the the fitted +Yeah, no with. +Up to the wardrobes where yours are fitted. +I'll go and measure mine. +Bye! +Yours is gonna be as long isn't it? +As yours. +But a little bit narrower isn't it? +Yeah, but you'd only have to have one . +You wouldn't have to have them either side like I've got. +And pe , places look bigger without all this junk in them you know! +Oh it isn't! +Alison, if you go now love you'll miss the traffic. +Okay. +You what? +The one up here, the three bedroomed one. +Against that thirty eight. +. +The bedroom, kitchen, dining room and a . +And a , and it's double glazed and ! +They've got none of that stuff there have they? +No it isn't, it's got a old gas er gas fire there. +Oh. +I'm gonna choose! +Yeah, but okay, you don't wanna have the what's the names do you! +. +Let's have a look at it again please! +Show it dad and he'll have a look when he gets home. +Well if we re , everything ready in the van for your nan and that to get in? +Yeah. +And there's in the downstairs. +What? +The bedroom. +Oh well we've got three kids in the big bedrooms haven't we Alison! +Right, I'll just go and get changed now. +You don't mind Alison taking you home? +No, I don't mind. +No, you've gotta give it me back, I'm gonna . +Oh. +Hope she looks after you . +Perhaps she'll help come in with you. +Yes. +She's stupid! +She ! +She's going now and gonna leave me this old crap on the table!. +What? +Yeah. +No, I haven't. +I've, no I'm gonna give this to . +If it was me .. +. +And ! +Are you coming with me, yeah! +But at least when this bloke comes tonight you've got something for him. +Especially what he's . +You haven't been out . +Well I ain't had a on the same rate as me!blue they should have the same, like mine! +Wouldn't you? +And then Kimmy can come and visit and play in the garden! +That would be nice wouldn't it? +and go to bank and see what it would cost you for . +It's +Yeah. +Well yo , you borrow your money on the house till your mor , till it comes through. +Uncle Keith did that. +Well do you think it's a lot? +Well I don't, he said +It depends on, on the houses. +Well you've got an appoint , you're gotta go, have an appointment to go and see somebody there aren't you? +And then in the first place you're getting enough money you can you can bash it away and that'll pay for your furniture. +Yeah. +You can have down the road for the . +Oh, cos it'll depend on his er +And down at the road there. +Mm. +Yes, and your . +You could pawn those. +You're not! +It wouldn't matter what they said. +Mhm, you could pawn those. +No. +them will come later when he got there and then you can have something else nice. +Yeah. +Take what you want and leave the rest, your mother'll get rid of it. +Kimmy would like to come over and visit wouldn't you? +You'd have to make room in the back garden! +He never phoned me!. +Going there? +Yeah. +But +But it might be. +But what do you think? +I think it's half the point! +I know. +Said said he come from the that and all. +Yeah. +But you don't need it in the car . +Yeah but, I mean yo , people are allowed now to put their own in aren't they? +But you'd have to have the points fitted by them but you get your own +Yeah. +And just get the tested like me and your dad did. +Mm. +He did two rooms. +I want that as well. +You're not having that! +No, I tell you what I'd like you know the ones ? +Well what does it cost to get a little what's a name now? +You just never been round to look. +You go round in the sales, have a look. +Mm. +You're not in a rush. +. +Listen, I would them for you then!. +Mhm. +Oh I don't know ma! +Mm. +I will . +Well I'll put, Kimmy must be there cos Kimmy's gonna be one our bridesmaids! +Ay! +Ay! +Ay! +What are you doing? +What are you doing lady? +Can Kimmy be one of our bridesmaids? +Do you wanna be my bridesmaid? +Come on sweetheart! +Come on! +Kimble. +Come on sweetheart! +I think where anybod ,ay! +Come on! +Alison's here to take him out don't you? +Ay? +QQ Ay? +The, all these light fittings, I don't want to change them over. +We're not gonna win! +What you ? +It's me and . +Yes. +Hello sweetheart! +Why don't put it underneath. +Right,. +What number is it? +Eighty one. +Well why? +Oh it's bloody dangerous, very dangerous stuff ! +Twenty five. +Well at least he can have a word with him about it and see what and he can do, and then you go to and see what they can do. +And, and,a number five down down . +Go and have a look, he proba probably for that price he might say oh, we'll leave the curtains and the carpets. +You've only got to have them cleaned! +But the thing is erm with that, unless they're living there they might nice. +It's only the ones that have nobody living +Yeah. +in. +But we can't go in there. +It's like that one in Stanley Road. +Well ring her up and see. +Should I ? +Not yet no, just get your out there and and then you might have a bit of lee-way might not we then? +But how will I know where to go?. +Well you just go to the front entrance +Yeah. +and see the porter. +And say what type of ward? +You want to go to the orthopaedic. +And you go round the corner +But she has to go to physio though. +No! +You know where the porter's desk is? +I know where to go. +Yeah. +You go round that corner not off that way towards the wards just go from the desk right round the corner and follow it right the way down as far as you can go. +You can't go many further cos there's a blank wall +Right. +and you turn to your left. +Before you hit the blank wall you turn to your left. +And does nan walk or have a wheelchair? +Have a wheelchair. +Cos it's a good way down. +And just go to reception +and take and her card and then her folder comes out as you take it . +If you go now there'll be nobody there! +The fracture clinic she's going to. +The factory? +The fla +Ay? +The fracture clinic, not the bloody +Fracture. +factory! +The orthopaedic. +The fra , fracture clinic! +Yes. +Okay. +Oh no, I'm alright. +We'll see ah it's just down from here . +It's just . +They know it's Doctor so +You what? +You have to somewhere. +But see if I get out in . +won't they? +No, it's not mine actually. +Do you, do you have to? +Yes! +It's got a garage and everything! +Ooh, it's sounds nice! +It'll cost you for a garage round here! +When she moves the . +. +Get your coat on! +It will be granddad's garage. +Get your coat on love,ay? +Yeah. +Yeah, I'm coming +A man +now! +A man tried to . +Double glazing!! +And it's on the, on the Station Road. +Station Road. +There's a fence round the garden at the back! +.Go and look at the garden.. +into the garage, +I, I . +. +Oh! +Soon be . +Oh! +When she was you know . +Put your arm in. +in the car. +Yeah but you'll be sitting in the chair won't you love? +Yep. +Are you tired of walking? +Put your arm in. +Come on Kimmy! +Better have the . +Oh, hello! +You little smasher aren't you? +Now you've gotta get your coat on. +All the curtains and everything. +Are you coming then? +.Yeah? +Need anything else? +Microwave, mincer? +One or two? +Lord help me if it's from ! +And don't forget we're going down the fracture clinic Alison! +No. +She +I +hasn't forgotten that. +I . +Do you want your chocolates? +No. +Chocolates? +. +Right, what do you think ? +Oh for me to go down there . +I'll be very nice! +Well you'll have to . +Why? +Well! +I mean +Ah, get a . +What you spend you could buy something. +Lots of . +Coming back here after tea. +Oh! +Invited to . +Ah, and you want want to get dad out of here ay? +Bloody well ! +Not a bloody cos I didn't hear him! +. +Oh. +Fifty one. +Going down Sainsbury's. +Anyway, you got everything there, you got your garage , you know, you got double glazing. +You got central heating! +Look out garage, we'll get one. +Yep. +A a . +Where is this ? +Yeah, I've got one. +Kimmy! +Come here! +That's it! +Give us that packet there! +The cigarettes! +Hello! +Oh,hiya love! +We're alright, Alison's taking her so they're off now. +Yeah. +Alison's taking her in the van. +But,I haven't gotta go have I? +Herbert's going up +I'll take her +to Crewe and then she's taking her and then it'll save me a journey. +I'm alright thanks love . +Shouldn't Gordon, clear off will you! +Well while I'm away you can . +Okay! +Bye! +it's a . +Okay Gordon. +Ta tara love! +Tara ! +I am going to get some. +Bye bye then! +You best go cos the front , you know +I will quite a lot. +Well you might get in the fro +Alright. +Get your nan in a wheelchair first! +Get in and get her in a wheelchair! +. +Ay? +. +Now then, what's gonna happen today? +Them things are on the , can you see her? +That's been on and we don't even know it's been on. +No, it's all confidential. +It's all sealed. +It's always the way it's they're just looking for accents erm trouble is in the, if it's in the office and you're talking anywhere in the house you can't hear +No. +you because you're a good way away. +. +No, you don't put in who they are or what they are, you just say, where it come, originates from and erm what their job was. +Best thing to do is take it on holiday innit? +But where are we gonna go before Friday love? +Mum just have a word with dad and I'll find somewhere to go! +Just ask dad if I can have the time off before Friday and I'll find somewhere to go. +You've gotta go looking Alison you ge , the trouble is erm when they've gotta keep coming out to show you the places isn't it? +Yeah. +Why,? +Well no, they're going +No, +to sell it aren't they, but it's just yo , it's gotta be before half past four. +Mm. +You know,the , they finish at half +Yeah. +past five. +They should have somebody to come out at night really to +I know. +you. +But they can't can they? +Not with all these murders that's going on with the cos there was that girl wasn't there? +She was going to show somebody round for that. +And then and that other one got kidnapped! +Well I dunno, bet she thought it was Stu, she would like to be left with him long! +It's certainly not in, in her what's a name's erm order order. +Well you have to tell a load of lies as he said well it's a right shambles,nobody would go and see would they ? +Ooh! +Ooh, come on girl! +Just take her . +Mm. +Ha ! +Back to the drawing board! +He must of been up quite a while cos this the thing's fell down hasn't it? +Ha ! +This property has been a subject of recent improvement work and is offered in excellent decorative order . +It's that one Gordon. +Right! +Thirty five thousand. +Get my glasses. +Get your glasses. +They've got a reception hall there. +That's nearly on Daisy Hill. +Them are good little houses them are! +I quite like that house down there! +Where? +In . +Well you've not looked at any more have you? +Okay so ah there's your open fire look! +The dining room, thirteen foot by ten foot. +A lounge fourteen by eight. +What sizes are them Gordon? +Eighteen. +Eighteen and ten. +three that's there. +Well they must of been lo , I had a load of them here! +That one down the Daisy Hill is still er up for sale. +Was there any more or did she just give you these? +Or did you go round them yourself? +Went round them myself. +fire. +Oh you should see see it! +It has only been burning coal in it! +Coal? +And it's all burnt, it's burnt all the skirting board and er +Good God! +a bit of the carpet, yes. +You've gotta go round a few love. +Got a pantry in this one. +Where's ? +You got a fifteen by twelve. +This bedroom offers potential for subdivision to two rooms . +Got a big bed +Or you could have an en-suite bathroom there. +Pardon? +En-suite bathroom. +Pardon? +Could have an en-suite bathroom. +Yeah. +Bathroom in suite comprising panelled bath, pedestal finished in white . +Kimmy! +Rear gateway leading to vehicular access road . +No telephone in that one. +It does say so with scope for improvements in that one. +But that one there with da , what's a name, decorative order is not +No. +it's not +It says on this one though. +This, this one's got decorative order. +Which is that one? +It says Green. +That's forty two. +How much did these er places go up er Lego land? +Forty to forty six. +This is forty one. +Sixteen years old +Twenty , twenty twenty three. +How could you sell ? +And it like that. +Don't tell you the size of the bathroom . +No, it doesn't say the size of the bathrooms does it? +Pardon? +Doesn't give you the size of +No. +the bathrooms. +Ey,it does on here! +Oh +And nine foot by nine foot nine by nine foot one. +Well it doesn't give the size of the bathroom on here. +Oh sorry, it's the bedroom! +No it doesn't on here either. +Mm. +There's provisions for an ne , erection of a garage in this one. +And these are newer again! +There's one up beside, round there with a garage on it. +This is an end one with a garage get a good long space there! +Oh that's by what's her name innit! +Where? +By the Crofters That was the one you really liked before. +On that estate by Crofters Do you remember them ones you brought? +Do you remember? +And you said oh it's got a place for even got a garage. +No but it's got +Is it er the flats then? +Yeah. +Cos it doesn't say it's +It's a first floor flat. +I think. +Ground floor flat isn't it? +No it's got upstairs and downstairs! +No, if you read it. +No, it isn't a flat! +Oh! +You always wanted +With a modern bathroom. +Oh ay! +Well that was going for thirty nine behind what's a name there. +It's +Mm. +nice there! +And that's nice! +Yeah. +We'll have to . +Oh, they've only got one bedroom! +Yeah. +This one here sounds alright. +At Westbond Green. +That's . +Where is ? +is roomy! +It's thirty six this one. +This twenty seven's probably +Oh that's coming along from the erm +It's right on the main road. +Yeah. +This is a lounge with exposed beam ceiling, what's that mean? +That the beams +It's got ceilings. +No plaster on the ceiling. +Mhm. +It's in Lego Land! +Look at +The one? +Yeah. +That's forty. +Mm. +There's plaster board on it? +So what they like then? +Well i ,i , it's exposed beams, it's truss isn't it? +Well what does that look like? +The thing is, with that one nobody knows what you've got on the inside. +You can turn that house so they just print it like that couldn't they? +Oh yes! +You've got a lot of basics first haven't you? +Mm. +You're talking out of our league anyway. +Really, aren't you? +I only got it cos it looked nice. +Got a utility room. +And what did gu , what did Stuart say about that one? +He said, would you really wanna live next door to Alan ?for your neighbours. +There's your in there. +Five forty six. +We're only limited to go up to forty really aren't we? +I li , quite like the look of that one. +Mm. +Well thousand, two thousand . +The second bedroom is ten foot eight by five foot eight. +Just get a bed in! +Get a four foot bed in it and yo +Nothing to walk on! +Not a lot of room one side of it! +Well this is only seven by +But +five. +Mm. +The other one's ten foot two bedroom ten. +Mhm. +Well why does he make them so busy? +First time buyers love, that's why. +Yeah that's it! +That's it, yeah. +Yeah. +For what we want, we should of bought the one this, something a bit like this house but . +You don't really till you go out, look round and what you're getting for your money do you? +No. +Can I have some more? +Yeah. +Like, you're only talking about getting four walls for twenty thousand aren't you? +Oh!bum bum bum . +No, there's something about that one at what's a name I didn't like. +Been empty too long. +Like that one's been empty too long. +There's a lot of work! +The skirting boards and everythi ,put that one round the corner! +You're better off with something like this. +Mm. +Ten. +Be living in! +Mm. +That's er well that's, one occupied. +They've been occupied, that one isn't is it? +This i , this one here.. +I don't know. +What that one? +Where is it? +Every other one of them's up for sale! +Mm. +You know what's there Kimmy. +That's . +And they said there's some details of them shops . +Mm. +Well that one's got leaded windows. +Yeah.. +And you know they haven't been up that long. +No. +They've i , only been up about four or five years! +Or not even that long have they? +The lounge is fourteen by eleven. +Yeah, that's good! +Swept heads and leaded light features. +Mm. +Open plan staircase leads to first floor. +So you've got the stairca , have you been in one of them? +Yeah. +What they like? +Same as that one down there. +But you go from the stairs and in the er +You've got a kitchen diner. +You've +These +got er a what's a name on the wall like that. +Yeah. +The thing is you +High panelled ceiling. +I think you're better loo , looking in one that's all furnished out and that, cos I can't imagine that with furniture in. +Bedroom two is a five foot eight inches. +Yeah. +So that's one me. +They've got this left for me. +Yeah. +Twenty four. +That's, that'll price on that one. +Yeah. +Couple of inches on there you could +You've gotta beat them! +But it's a house. +Can you ge can you put that er anything up the side? +We are +it's the end of row that is there +That is, yeah. +so there's bound to be +Right. +some space there! +I know, it says garden to side.. +Well you can run what you like up your garden can't you? +Mhm. +Well they the new ones on the front would they do that? +Brand new, brand new one. +Same as that. +They're still building. +I think this is why they can't sell cos they keep building on and people are going in the newer ones and not buying the ones that are lived in. +And it's all all +Well you don't want a big roaring place do you? +Oh heck, no! +I mean, you're not gonna fill it with children are you? +Gonna fill it with little puppies! +The smaller the better! +I mean, I wish I had a small place. +And Kimmy wants to come and visit don't you? +And you'll have this garden to run about in won't you? +A big garden! +I mean, we got a dining room that we use about three times a year! +Oh I'm not bothered about things like that, but I would have liked a decent size garden. +That one that that bloke had in Wrexham, he'd got a go , good one there! +Little bungalow. +And like then, like dad said if you've got a decent sized garden at the back if you wanna extend you can put an extension on the back can't you? +You can't extend on there. +No, cos it's a one. +It all depends what you're looking for Alison. +You've just gotta make your mind up. +Yeah but the thing is, it's something that we've got to think for life really, or we're just gonna be in the same situation in a couple of years that we wanna something a bit bigger. +That's right. +Won't we? +I mean, we could be in a predicament that we've got to stay in there cos nobody will buy it! +So how many houses are up for sale now? +Prices are gonna come down aren't they? +Yeah. +But I said that and sort of just holding on a level now like, isn't it? +Yeah, but I mean +But erm but there's a lot trying to be sold like, isn't there? +As you say they've gotta come down and probably we'll have to talk to them. +To get, you know get the sales. +The thing is if you're getting one that's lived in you're most likely to get the carpets and things like that in. +Yeah. +I mean like this. +A brand new one you've got to fit haven't you? +Yeah. +Mm. +And even if you buy a cheap carpet to start with it's not gonna last long as i ,i ,i +No, no. +you know you've gotta yo , you're talking a thousand for carpets! +Yeah. +Yeah. +Not many people that's lived in a house take the carpets cos they won't fit wherever else they're going. +No, well that's it, they just +Especially if it's smaller ones cos they're probably moving onto a bigger house. +Yeah. +I don't know what you wanna big roaming house for? +I don't want a big roaming house, but I want a decent sized house and with a bit of garden! +I'm not asking for much mother! +Are we? +It's what you live in I think. +I mean, you're not gonna be it's not as though you're gonna be having people staying or erm I mean if you're gonna get a little place with a little single bed in +Can't invite people . +you can't invite people to stay. +Can you? +Nope! +It's I know, it's a place of your own, it's your own and it's not a big place to keep clean is it? +I mean, the more space you have, the more muck you'll make! +I know. +And also it'll the bound to be building and that it'll, you watch them . +You're right. +Yeah. +They'll each go up with . +Doesn't give the rateable value on +No. +any of them. +What do you want ? +Well I , I'm not, I'm not like I said, I just want +Want to go wee wees? +Come on! +Something to . +Come on, let's go wee wees! +Now, do you wanna a cup of tea? +With a little +Go on Gordon! +Come on! +you know garden and that. +Well I'll bloody well you were fifty! +You what love? +I just want something with a little bit more garden. +Yeah but there again you're paying for the land aren't you? +You have to think of the land . +Your land is what costs the money. +Go on, if you're going! +Yeah. +Yeah alright. +He's going with . +I'll just go and pop up to the other estate agent cos if dad comes in now he'll have his dinner won't he? +Where did you chuck my boots? +They're outside, your boots. +Filled up with rain! +Good job your feet . +Well what estate agent's is there up Wocking now? +Where's Mollinees and ? +Are they all fairly close? +Mollinees is next to, yeah. +And there's a few more there isn't there? +Is there any more there? +And then the other one is down by the , that one's still there where you pull in by Rayners is that one still there? +Or is that gone? +No , that's gone. +Right. +There's only Mollinees . +And where's this Lytons +Oh it's , oh I don't know. +I'm going to park up the top. +What, shall I just go in and say can I have all your houses that's under forty thousand, forty thousand and under, yeah? +Mm. +Forty two those without . +Yeah up to, up to about forty five yeah? +Hopefully lower er . +Where's Mo , now? +And what's the viewing arrangements, say. +Yeah. +And what about getting a thing from there. +It's not count for anything. +Well don't be long Alison. +I won't be long. +I'm only going in and saying that erm I've got twenty thousand coming to me now I want to buy an house with it. +Right? +Has Kimmy come in? +Yeah she is. +Yeah she's +Yeah. +in. +Alright, bye! +Tata love! +And don't be long! +Er, where's she going now? +No! +Can you get anything done when they're here? +Can't move! +Come here, I'll move it through like this. +Yeah. +I've left the beds open for a bit just so we can +. +Snow over Bexington where I can see! +Yeah. +Probably Alison here like, there's only you know, you just lucky . +Cos if you're here buying a like, innit? +The same as that. +One there, thirty five! +I've found that one. +They're, I tell you where they are it's that row just as you're climbing up the Daisy Hill, before you get to the +On the left? +undertakers. +Yeah. +They're certainly . +Little houses them. +Well,i ,i +There's no central heating or anything +No. +down there. +Well they're brick aren't they? +. +See what they've gotta se think about is if they want double glazing, which is another er two or three thousand pound! +Yeah, +You want central heating, that's another +Yeah. +a thousand pound! +These . +See you've got your gas fired central heating, two beds, it's two bedrooms here! +I mean +Yeah. +I know one's in wall. +. +Better if I get my glasses on Gordon! +Right! +Well it is you know it's you know it's er it's all blurry and ! +Reception porch, is a telephone, so they've got the telephone in. +Mm. +Got plumbing for automatic washing machine. +Gas and electric cooker points. +Kitchen diner, well that's as good as anything! +You only want a table and four chairs for +Mm. +each side of +Yeah. +thing don't you? +Yeah. +Ha. +Yeah. +Half glazed, oh i ,th ,th , there's no double glazing +Yeah. +but still! +You can live without double glazing can't you? +Course you can!. +It's leaded, it's all leaded! +Mm. +Yeah. +And that's forty. +The other one I mean, you've got your three bedrooms but it's in a hell of state! +Leave this in tin. +They've had them in this one. +You need to have a lot light in there don't +Yeah. +you? +Oh that's a still a sash window. +They've only got the little lights in that shop. +Yeah. +But i which one is it for paying? +Which is it? +Which is it? +I don't Gordon +A bulb +to be honest! +that's like this. +I dunno. +They'll both be the same then. +Mm, yeah. +Seventy nine. +And that look, is, it's more gonna be that one! +Yeah. +You're gonna get the full +I know. +frontage th , +Yes , that's good +rather than that one +Yes. +aren't they? +I know. +Yeah. +And +Else he'd of took it from that way. +I see, yeah. +So the windows have been done there. +Yeah. +Haven't they? +Yeah. +Accommodation Well you haven't got your stairs in the front room for a start. +No. +Ha! +Lounge. +Fourteen by eleven. +Tiled fire place +open fire. +Yeah. +That's . +Dining room's bigger than +They've got a dining room. +. +Yeah. +Tiled fire grate. +open fire. +. +. +Mm. +Where? +There's no central heating and there's no double glazing in that one. +Mm. +Thirty five, but there again what do you want for thirty five? +That's it innit? +I imagine they're well ke , they're well the , they're old houses them in Weatherfields +Yeah, that's right. +aren't they? +Yes, you're right. +Here they're saying and offers scope for improvement so +Yeah. +Da da . +Well unless they go round and have a look, they're never gonna +No, that's right. +And you can't buy the first thing you're offered! +No, that's right. +That's what they're there for to provide a service aren't they? +Mhm, that's right. +Yeah. +Like, they sort out the the best one for you +Yes. +And they're for +best value for your money, like isn't it? +As you say, you don't want to three bedroomed house and have it . +. +That one's an estate that one. +You see, there's no grate or anything, there's just this thing on the wall with a +Yeah. +door on! +But there's like, as though it's burnt the erm skirting board underneath +Yeah. +or onto the carpet there. +We could only see through the windows +Yeah. +there. +Yeah, you can't see properly there. +Erm they've like, as though they've had the porch altered. +Yeah? +Over the door the others are flat and they've had it done although the roof +Had it done. +inside's been left +getting just the +No, it hasn't been put back, you know what I mean? +Mm. +And then it's like as though they've had them long windows, you know? +Yeah. +And they've had another it's all er metal. +Like they were all +yeah. +double glazed. +Yeah. +It, it's been bricked up. +Mm. +But they haven't put the skirting board back or any +I see. +it's just been left with +Oh dear! +the plaster. +Yeah. +Mind you, that covers with paper like innit really. +It does say it's er splendid. +I don't know where they're looking! +Mm. +Yeah. +Does me good to go and look through some of these, I think my God I've got a palace! +You have you have mum. +I haven't! +You have! +I haven't! +You have that! +It's like tumbling down a whole to your earholes from the start isn't it? +No, bloody damn +You know, the +rubbish in it! +Enough to fill about +Oh +three skips! +Yeah. +I think she wants to get something sorted so that when it comes it's open for her. +it's +Oh it's always a this bloody thing is! +You're alright +Oh! +it should of gone off now Gordon, I think. +They erm +It's all different times and well it's turned , I'll have to get Herbert to have a look at it. +Yeah. +Oh, the clasp in it! +Yeah, it's got all +and then it'll knock off! +Yeah. +When's the eighteen hundred hours, when's that? +Eighteen hundred +No, wait a minute! +It's er +I can't see. +Four o'clock isn't it? +Ey,it's gonna knock off when it's due to come on. +Yeah. +Off until A. Off until B. Off until C. That's right at the moment. +Off until D. That's twenty two. +Oh that's wrong and all! +On until D. And then it goes off +Let's have a look. +at C. +Have a look. +Yeah, well that's . +Yeah. +I don't understand it ! +Well that's how it was before. +It ey,yeah. +You see, none of them's got the places tiled all over have +No. +they? +No. +Just got a little bit by the +And they just cover the than it, you know what I mean, because of the I suppose it's the expense saving considering. +It like and then they've tiled it themselves probably . +Kitchen,ey it's tiled li , like this it's you know, the best way to do them, like innit +Yeah +you know? +well I mean Alf did these. +Did a nice job! +Ey,yeah. +Oh ey,it was the best thing I had done really. +Because, well he did a good job! +Well I mean, the thing is you get done after you move in. +Yeah. +You'll +Oh yeah, +you'll not in a place +Oh no! +where they're all done! +No. +No well the price that's the +Yeah. +most important thing. +But she was certain like, it would be. +It's er,the best deal they can get like, isn't it? +Yeah. +You want best accommodation don't you? +My own opinion is these erm but he says he's they make them long. +Well that's like all mine do ! +Well the type of building it is. +I mean, you've nothing in, they don't need a big place! +it me as well! +I've lost the damn thing now! +What's that? +It's over there. +Oh yeah. +Mm. +You got your central heating and you've got no erm but they're only small! +And they sort of you know where they are don't +Where? +you? +Not at all. +I don't actually. +You know where you used to go down to that Mall Court +Yeah. +Well they're down, that's that road that running up +Oh yeah! +But they're pretty new +Oh +they haven't been +Yeah. +up that long! +Yeah, I know. +Oh you see that they are aren't they? +See it,presented in excellent decorative order and has many interesting features making it's +Yeah. +internal inspection worthwhile . +Internal inspection worthwhile. +That's it, right. +So I mean yo , there could be things in it that it could be left there, if there's, but you started +Yeah. +in a small place like that, there's not much you're gonna be able +No. +to take with +No. +you. +No +Is there? +there's not. +Carpets and things like that +if you're going for a big +Ey. +place. +Yeah. +That's a . +You'd have to leave them with +And in the same you know, I mean er two or three years so there's not gonna be much, and it's only been a couple that are gonna +look after it aren't they? +Yeah. +You see, these up here's been up a long time. +Ey,they have . +But I noticed the timber you know, round the house, I look what you +Oh yeah. +look at. +And er a lot of it's rotten!board's no good! +That's never been . +No. +And half the +You can see +missing and +Yeah. +That bothers me, that fire that's been there's only +Oh yeah? +one fire. +Yeah. +And then half the ceiling's knocked down. +It all wants doing inside! +It's all gotta be done! +But, in the same room as the fire that's been in it Where's +No +the fire? +it's where they've had that porch built up. +Yeah, I know that! +See, they would of had the porch +I see, yeah. +and they've added tiles +Right. +built on tiled. +Oh . +But I had +and +I it's opened . +Like there's nothing across the back of inside +Yeah, there is a bit but it's, it's like somebody broke it, broke it, so it's half +Oh . +half in and half out. +They're all broken +Oh yeah,. +tiles there. +It's double glazed, but then so was this. +Yeah. +That one's reduced to forty. +You could go there, you +Well +could make an offer you +they +might get another thousand off it. +Yeah. +Especially if there's a lot for sale down there. +That's right. +They the, the windows like, in the door well the these are a good type of windows! +Yeah, I mean like he +You know, for what's for what's going like. +Yeah. +They're good. +Yeah, and they're double glazed you say, these are they? +No. +No. +No. +No, they won't be on that type er ju ,. +They still probably there is enough room to get a bit +Well ey there's a lawn! +Ah, with any luck , you could make a vehicle access there and a +But you can +you know? +Well even a car port for a start. +Yeah. +yes, the end one's got a lot of roo , you know? +Yeah. +It's er +yes. +Then you're better off as you say with an end one . +one er +At the +you know, one in the middle of the road like, any how. +They only wanna small place, you don't wanna a big +No. +rambly . +Well it's it all adds up don't it like? +You're heating costs is less. +If you had +Yeah. +a smaller place. +Yeah. +You're lighting costs are less. +Mhm. +You know,the , there's all these little things. +The what's a name isn't it? +No, we can hopefully say they don't +know any of them now. +No. +Mind you, I think probably cos it's been poll taxed hasn't it? +That , oh oh yes that's , yeah. +Yeah,they bloody changed ! +Mm mm. +Still still I think we all I tell you, about forty. +Ey up she here! +She's heard me! +Come here! +Come here! +Tap tap. +You see you got your old one staircase in there. +Yeah. +Well it's er it's, it's a very +Warm glow warm Spacesaver, it's like that. +Yeah. +one. +Yeah. +Pine panel ceiling in the kitchen. +With twin eyeball spotlight . +Yeah. +I hope you're not doing anything all afternoon mother! +Where was Lyton's then? +Lyton's was next door to the place. +She was the nicest in these here. +. +No. +They will give you and they'll come out on Sunday there as well! +Well that's forty seven! +Oh well, she said they'd drop that one down. +Don't believe the prices..! +They'd only got one. +That's up by where Steven lives. +Really? +Mm. +. +That's +I said +across the road from innit? +Mm. +She's told me all about the walls. +She come and help me. +She said that +But you've only got one from there! +No, I got loads! +She was telling me all about all of them and on the roof. +And where's David ? +The other side of , next to the post office. +It was +Who told you +there. +She said most of them are lived in anyway so you can go anytime it suits. +Oh. +None for you Kimmy! +Cos it's all for me! +That one's empty. +There's a telephone in that one. +Did she say most of them would come down? +Offers in the region of +Mm. +So you'd probably get a +election won't it? +Geoff , vote Conservative with with his dog and his wife. +Along +Oh, can I have a look! +park and his dog Lassie. +That was him putting them through wasn't it? +Yeah. +No it wasn't! +Oh, some by the door in case your time's up! +Oh wanted a word with you see how much money you've been putting in my , and we're going for a mortgage now. +Is it a man or is there a woman? +Man. +What's he like? +He's got glasses. +I dropped one over there! +But I know, I ever since . +Oh. +Pooh! +That's ba ! +Oh dear! +Talking to did I tell you I got a since I moved that plate. +It'll only be the erm who will you be voting for when you go? +I'll vote in there. +On the day or +Conservative. +Yes. +Could if I wanted to! +But, +Don't change the rest of them. +No, for the er +Want a bread roll? +Campaign for the . +He said I'd go to . +Why? +What did he say? +I thought you'd be +Or will you just voting for the likes of Barry ? +Well yes. +So he'll be up against +Barry . +Yes. +Does he work for Redruth +I don't know. +Dad, you're reading between the lines. +Because it's dad says he works Redruth Cos he, he reads between the lines! +He'd just gone down there because er . +Well I've tried it occasionally. +Might be Conservative . +Well usually comes. +A at er . +Who? +He's not standing for parliament! +Oh, my word! +You mean Barry or er +He must of been picked from the Conservative to stand would he? +Dad's a , dad's just nominated you for the big in the campus. +Does he pay you? +Hey? +No? +I did it for one and he didn't get in! +He got sold down the line. +Was that Uncle Keith? +Mm mm. +I thought Uncle Keith went for it once? +He did! +And I didn't canvas for him, I just marked up. +Well this +Oh well this was only for the local! +Who did you canvas for? +Uncle Fred! +And didn't he get in? +I've ticked you off for all these here. +There's a this. +Oh, very good of you dear then! +Is that alright? +And a , that postal road, you can go walking for this . +What we were asking is he will they be +Yes. +equal to Barry ? +Yes. +And he works for Redrow well is he gonna do anything for me? +Well I'll go to canvassing and I'll get your name down in there. +I'll say look! +I'll persuade everyone to vote for you just get a job with . +So he must be on Alan and Dee. +Cos he's a he's a conservati , he's been acting in a lot of conservative party for the past thirteen years! +You know, he's been picked for the conservatives to stand has he? +What's his name Ally? +Geoff. +Well you won't be pok Geoff , you won't be voting for him mother! +So! +Well no, we know who you vote for! +You don't know! +There you are see! +See,i , if we, if we'd have said that about you erm, nobody knows what +You, you don't know , nobody knows! +Nobody knows who I vote! +I told tell anybody! +What about the Green Party dad? +Well that hasn't come through yet! +Give them chance! +At least he was firs , he's got his his literature first. +Well Barry was round the other day wasn't he? +Shouting and blasting all over the loud speakers! +I hope it comes here! +Well why not! +Have you ever wanted anything off him? +Yeah when we got his autograph! +Well you got something! +There's not many people got his au and he sent you a Christmas card! +Did he? +Mm. +Yeah! +Sent you a Christmas card? +Yeah! +He didn't help in anyway but he did get a lot +He sent you Christmas card! +Ha! +I hope you're back in your new house ! +Ah,! +I'm fe , I'm seat to the bloody right! +Yeah! +But he But I know and he got a petition up and +So he comes in . +Didn't remember. +Shall have to wait that in the window you know, my like the other one. +The the, the two the big window made like the other one on the other side and er, what else was erm oh, to have the heater serviced +Well he's as sure as hell gonna be round the old people's homes! +So the best thing is, is get him by the scruff of the neck and ask him what's he gonna do about them things that you fell over twice! +And see what +Yes. +he'll do for you! +Yes, yeah. +Well, I mean we all erm +Not too much +they all signed +he's on the make! +they all signed this petition. +Seeing that +you don't want er we don't like our the other boy! +The other conservative man, see! +If you can get Neil Kinnock in, and by George, you'd get them things done in your house! +Yes. +Seca , Secretary of State for Wales he's gonna be! +Where are they all Gordon? +Between the elections, knock on your door and say, is there any problem I can help you with? +I don't know. +Look! +They get paid +Look! +enough +Look! +and they could go, have an area +A week. +And every house +go round the doors. +Not now! +They +Don't want them now! +They have a +That's it! +surgery every week! +Or every fortnight for problems! +Right, and a lot of help you get there when you go there! +But they have one! +Well I mean they +So yo it's up to the +But where is it? +You get more sense out of a virtually, than what you get out of that ! +Well I mean, he did we , he we , he did send letters to the council. +And then, I mean, but every one of us had a letter off him and said he was, he was doing what he can with the council +But what? +and er +Well, the windows. +The windows +And it's all been done and all been put straight and everything, you got your windows done? +No. +No! +No, well he wa it was the council, they said they couldn't afford it. +They hadn't got the money to do it. +And every one of us in that, in we had a letter every one of us, from Barry . +Yeah, but it doesn't cost him anything! +We're paying for all his postage ! +Mother, I thought +And the +you said I +the envelope they get from +I hope you haven't got +this on tape here! +Doesn't cost him postage or anything that! +Well he said in the council. +But this is catching names on the tape! +I don't give a sod who it is! +And he sent the letter back what he'd had, had off the council in with his letter. +I'm not calling the Labour party, I'm calling the man, that he's been in too long ! +Bloody film star he ought to be, not a and he you see him on the television, he's been on a few times at night! +Have you seen him? +Yeah. +Who Barry ? +Have you seen him? +Yeah +Yeah. +catholic. +Yeah but what, I I remembered you saying that erm there's two subjects you don't row on and that's erm religion and politics! +I'm not rowing! +But I just said, where are they all the years when they're not having an election! +They could knock on the door, or they could sell send their servants! +Then they'll be getting the best jobs for it,i , in . +To ask, have we got, have you got a problem? +It was only round the old folk! +Every one of them! +Not just Labour, Conservative, every one of them will get the same answer from me ! +Yeah alright! +You the only difference is Barry has been elected our member of parliament and he should do it! +The others haven't! +Well he wouldn't do that,a , that's council that wouldn't do it! +But have we got any have you got any +Mum! +The council are the, the, the your Conservative, your Labour and your Liberal! +So if the council refused it at the meeting it's their people that's refused it! +It all goes to er erm to the planning and everything. +They have meetings about it! +They're getting paid near, over twenty odd quid a meeting ! +Well they wouldn't the council . +Well no it's, it's the same councillors that's come to your door that are sitting in on the meeting and saying no, it's impossible! +I've no time for any of them! +I never have had, and I never will have ! +They sent a letter +This is a prime example ! +This place! +And they , and they +Where were they! +Yeah. +All they did was take photographs and, and send somebody round to try and stop us getting a home here! +Yeah. +Well what about ? +Well, we don't +They were big. +we don't want big windows, long windows now! +Erm so that front doors to that +How many ? +wall, to that +Barry is the damn council! +He started as a councillor! +Yes. +To get ! +Well it's the council that refused cos they hadn't got the money. +Well while he's raking it in every bloody week for sitting on his behind in parliament there, he can pay for them ! +I will. +Well alright, I mean them long windows, as you say,up here, erm low! +I mean yo , you've got to climb up to wa er, curtains up and that haven't you? +Yo , you happen to fall! +Instead of putting nice little windows in! +I mean, every year they that er people are a year older! +Well a ,i that design was submitted and they passed them! +They're the first to be built in Buckley them, main road. +Why did they +them +they build them? +Yeah but I'll when I a , where I am. +They were the first to build in Buckley Main road. +Call them the luxur , the luxury bungalows! +They're all in envelope next! +How big's your nan? +Ay? +How big's your bedroom? +Well it's a nice size! +I got two wardrobes in and dressing table. +And a chest, and another chest. +The thing is putting the if what you can round a bed isn't it, you can? +Well I mean the , there's couples lived, er, lived in there haven't they? +And there's couples still living in there. +Barry has got a cover, they've all gotta cover the whole of haven't they? +Not just their own little patch this time. +He's probably not bothered cos he knows he's got in again! +Pardon? +He's probably not bothered about he's knows he'll get in anyway! +Oh he'll get in! +But what's-a-name usually for Barry doesn't he? +Er that . +Well what's special? +Related to your granddad. +He's ? +Yeah. +He's +But a small one. +well he's the right hand man for Barry isn't he? +Who? +What the hell's his name? +I know who you mean. +Yeah. +, yeah. +Yeah. +Tom ? +Yeah. +Arthur . +His granddad +That's what erm last year. +His granddad was er my dad's brother! +Uncle Bert. +I was gonna ask you, you know Arthur ? +That's the one! +Well i , is his wife's name Betty? +No that's his brother. +Well has Arthur got a Arthur has got two children hasn't he? +Yeah. +Well, how many children's Betty got? +Oh you got a few cos she's got Kevin, he was at home. +Yeah. +Yeah. +And she, has, have they got a girl as well? +There's one. +They've got a daughter as well. +Cos I'm sure the girl that comes down the sh , I'm sure she's Betty's daughter. +Really stuck up! +Cos Betty was really stuck up weren't she? +Betty who? +Betty, who's from down our . +Ha! +No, she thought she was. +Ha! +Oh she was stuck up though wasn't she? +Who's knocked that off? +We are just signing off so mum can have a swear ! +You never see much of her children do you? +Don't think I've ever seen the , oh,yo ,yo the first one a couple of times. +Prince Andrew and er, and Fergie? +Yeah! +Oh! +Marriage is over! +Well that didn't last long did it? +No! +Cor that's +I thought it had been Diane and the Charles! +Cos you certainly , some people have holidays and that! +Well I don't think they can mother ! +Will he be next to the throne in +Well I don't know! +I suppose anything's possible! +Well I mean er Prince Edward did didn't he? +The eldest one. +So, I mean, he'd of taken before erm before the before the Queen now. +It's only , I don't know why ! +What did you say love? +I said Prince Edward did! +I mean he, he should have taken the throne. +He abdicated didn't he? +Oh yes you're going back a few years! +Well, I mean a , and the Queen was nothing, er well, the Queen wouldn't have been a Queen now would she? +Well she would if th , he'd had no children! +And then she'd of come maybe. +Well I imagine so! +I don't know +But she'd have been +he'd have been before her wouldn't he? +Edward give it, gave it up +Yes. +before George came didn't he? +George took over from Edward. +Duke of Windsor. +Yes. +Alright. +He abdicated so George took over! +He was to be the next King wasn't he? +But he abdicated so Geor , King George took over. +Yes. +But I know it was er Geor +And Elizabeth +George +was George's daughter wasn't she? +I mean, her father got killed in er a plane crash didn't he? +Who? +The Queen that is now. +King George? +No, he died +No. +of cancer! +Erm no, her father was killed in a plane crash Iris! +Who Queen Elizabeth? +No. +Er, the Mother Queen her husband. +Oh I don't know! +Yeah he was killed in the, in a crash. +Well no! +He took +That was King George! +The Mother +No, the +Queen! +The Queen +and he +Mother was King +No, King George was i , reigning when I got married, nineteen thirty five. +And then the other King Ge , then his son King George come up. +No, his name wasn't Geo , there was only the fa , only George that was on that was er it was erm +Who was King, Gordon before Queen Elizabeth come on? +George was it? +The fifth and the sixth was it? +George the fifth was first, and then George the sixth! +George the sixth. +No, it's the fifth was la , reigning when I got married. +In nineteen thirty five. +And Queen Mary. +Cos he had the silver, they had the the ju er co coronation and it er in the May, as your dad and I got married in the June. +Well when did George come to the throne then? +Well he was on, on the throne in nineteen thirty five! +. +Nineteen thirty five! +He was reigning when I got married. +You're on about the old King George! +Well it was only one King George! +No! +His dad +Are you sure? +was George! +Are you sure? +It was him with the beard cos they always said the Duke of Windsor took after him because he was +Yes. +a ladies man was n't he? +Mm. +Yes. +King George, I can remember he had a beard. +Well that's the old King George and then we had King George after! +That was married to the Queen Mother! +Which is Queen Elizabeth's mother and father! +Oh yes, I know that! +Well he had a +Oh yeah! +Yeah, go on, yeah. +And then, King George died. +Queen Elizabeth's mother de , er father died. +He was killed in a crash! +He wasn't love ! +Honestly he was Iris! +Was he Gordon? +The old King might have been killed in a plane crash! +No, he wasn't that +Maybe George the sixth was! +He died of cancer didn't +Yes. +he? +Yeah. +No, it's not that one. +He died and Princess Elizabeth was in Kenya at the time! +She was out of the country! +Yeah, but she didn't know she was gonna be Queen though. +Well which one was killed in a cra , in a aer , ere aeroplane crash? +It was! +That was her father! +It could be her father then. +And the Queen mother was her mother. +King George didn't get killed in plane crash mother! +He died of throat cancer! +No, King George was reigning a , and that's the only King George I know! +I could be wrong cou , I could be wrong I don't know! +But I thought her father's name was Edward. +Erm not Edward. +Cos I mean she was +Edward was the was the +at the +brother of George that abdicated wasn't +She +it? +she was +Yeah. +away. +She was away at the time +She was in Kenya! +Yes. +And +And her dad died of throat cancer! +Oh! +Cos he was a heavy smoker! +And she was to , she took over the Queen when she out of the country! +She wasn't crowned till after but she was told! +Oh I know she came yeah. +And they said it was very bad news for her, you know? +Eh, cos he didn't reign that long. +Who got killed Herbert? +Duke of Kent. +The Duke of Kent got killed in a plane crash. +Oh that's right! +There's the er it wasn't er the Princess, er the Queen now, was it her father? +It wasn't the Queen now's father was it? +No it was his brother. +It was her brother wasn't it? +Yes,. +They was all brothers weren't they? +Edward and the King and the Duke of Kent. +They're all brothers! +Edward, the Duke of Kent and the King, they +Yeah. +were all brothers. +Edward was next in line but he abdicated for Mrs Simpson so George +That's right. +came in line and he got it. +And then the other brother Duke of wa , what? +Kent! +Kent got killed in a plane crash. +Yeah , I knew one was killed in a in a plane crash but but who was the +Well that's him. +who was the Queen's, er husband? +George! +No! +And it was also King Geor you know George was he then after him? +His dad was named George wasn't he? +There was George the fifth and George the sixth. +Yeah. +Tha yeah. +Well George was the one that went that's the King and the +Yeah, but his dad was named George as well wasn't he? +George the fifth. +But the other one got killed got killed in a plane crash, yes. +And Edward abdicated, and he went to Paris, France. +Yeah, he wouldn't . +Yeah. +And then the +And then the the Queen took over. +And the other one got killed . +She wouldn't have been the Queen if +Sha +he hadn't ab , abdicated would she? +No ! +No. +I know, that's right. +But had he not of abdicated he would of been the Que , King. +Yeah. +Well who would have took over when he died? +Would Queen Elizabeth still have had the ? +! +Well he don't does he? +Yeah. +Oh! +Yeah but he ha , maybe he hasn't been dead that long has he? +Er no +No, cos he wasn't very old! +If you say last to die, yes. +What . +Well would it have been George's daughter? +Well you see . +Hiya! +Good day Madam! +How are you? +Alright. +Doing a gig aren't you? +Down at the R A F club, yeah. +yes, it was in a bloody scrap yard and this Jack come to me we had he had mentioned it before but he said we said we're not bothered, you know, he won't er that was in there. +Where the bloody hell have you been he said ! +I've been cos I haven't been to the R A F club for ages there. +No. +No. +And he said, are you still doing that one on the twentieth of March? +I thought buzz buzz buzz! +I said,oh I'll let you know tomorrow Jack . +So I got hold of Dave and I said ring Stuart and ring +I didn't know, it was David just, sort of, saying that, it's something your going to do. +Ring re the +It was +the drummer +it was +and ask, do they wanna do it like? +Yeah. +They both, I rang Dave back on the Sunday and he said they both wanna do it so took it! +It's money innit? +Did you get your car? +Yes, I got it, yeah, yeah. +What day? +The thirteenth or the fourteenth? +Oh I got it on the bloody Saturday didn't I ! +Got it on the Saturday. +You're alright then. +Well, six fifty I got if for like, I try give him a six hundred and he ummed and ahhed and then he said well he said well I'll take the six hundred he said, can you manage the hundred quid over the next five or six weeks? +I said, well I can't to be honest with you, I said I've gotta pay back what I bloody +Yeah. +borrowed like! +Yeah. +I said, I'll tell you what, I said er cos my mum lent me seven hundred +Yeah. +down. +Yeah. +I said I'll give you six fifty, so I'll have to try and scrounge the other fifty quid to tax the bloody thing! +Yeah. +He said I don't know what the car owes me he said can you come back tomorrow about half past ten? +I said yes alright then, which was the Saturday like. +So I left it till about twenty past eleven didn't I? +I thought oh I'll keep him on +Tenterhooks,ey +so I got, he said er where you been he said? +I thought you'd changed your mind! +He said it's alright I'll do the +Oh. +I said, oh thank you very much. +But they put the tax up in the budget didn't they? +On the car tax! +Yeah. +So I went to tax it with the fifty five quid as I thought! +I had to pay the new increase! +Yeah? +Yeah. +Sixty pound fifty it cost me for six months! +Oh why, it's more isn't it for +yes, I know it's more it was always more before. +Yeah, it was fifty five wasn't it before, half year? +Yeah. +Yes. +Yeah. +Yeah. +And what is it now? +And what is this ? +Sixty pound fifty. +Sixty pound, is the +Oh! +Like I, I've taxed this +from the first of March like. +Yeah. +Yeah. +yes, if they'd have done it from, say, the first of April fair comment like, I wouldn't of said +Yeah. +you know, wouldn't +Yeah. +of said nothing, oh well it's gone up, it's gone up like! +Yeah. +I know. +But I paid for the first of March so I've lost li literally fourteen days haven't +Yes. +I? +Yes. +But I still had to pay the new increase like! +Mm. +From the first of +Well it's +March like! +same as me. +I only tax mine for six month now then,ay? +Yeah well it +But er they what's er name, it'd cost me fifty five quid end of this month! +Yeah. +Know what I mean? +But I've got this ea , other ten quid going on it! +Well,fo , fortunately +Yeah well, it was right it was cheaper to do it for twelve months anyway. +Oh yeah that's right, it was cheaper. +It was er what was it, hundred quid weren't it? +Yeah. +And it was hundred and ten if you did it over the two six +Two +months like. +Yeah, that's it. +Oh yes, yeah. +Yeah. +Yeah. +So you +Choose six months +you know? +like, yeah. +yes. +And it's gone up again ! +yes, it's gone up again yeah. +. +Oh never mind! +You've got your wheels haven't you? +Ooh Christ, yes! +You got your wheels! +Didn't recognise you! +Oh God tha , they always leave that for me start off! +Stick him underneath! +Yeah ! +Oh ! +You like that, do you ? +it's alright. +I've seen in real life,! +Yeah. +How's your mum? +Alright, she's ah, been this morning and er they took the sling off now, she's getting onto use it again. +Is she better when she stands up now? +She used to +Oh yes! +What is was, she gets with Kimmy barking she gets +Yeah. +herself +worked up on it. +She's frightened of, sort of, opening the door thinking that the dog might get at her +Get her. +I mean, if she'd have just shouted! +I said well the dog knows Mike, and +Yeah. +and Mike's used to the dog, she wouldn't bother. +Oh no! +But she just gets up a bit quick. +Quick, yes. +So, yes she's alright now. +But if +Good! +if erm, you knock you know, you know my mum's still here +yes. +so if I'm going out, I'll leave the money under here anyway. +Okay love? +Alright chuck! +So Tim won't have you! +I'll ignore him! +See you Friday anyway! +Tara chuck! +Tara now! +Oh yes, how is she? +She's alright. +She said, oh! +I said how you feeling? +She said, I'd like to see a . +He said after she'd . +yes, it's a shame! +She's got two she's got daughters and +Can you post that for me please? +Yes. +And she but er I think one lives in Hull. +Near Hull,cos I said , I said where are you going? +Oh she said,I don't she said ! +We'll have to see. +She's had her teeth . +I think that house of Joe 's is up for sale isn't it? +It's all which house did he, cos there's two there isn't there, Gordon? +You know Joe, who I mean? +Oh,fo him, down the Ponderosa Down the Ponderosa ? +Joe, who you used to go and see. +Oh! +Joe and +Yeah. +yes! +Was it the one that side or this side? +The the bungalow this side. +You're going down the road +Yes. +There's two bungalows, or three bungalows isn't there? +Two. +Two? +It's that one there. +Not the first one +No! +you see. +I'm this way! +You're on the main road now +Yes. +and they're on that side. +That's it! +Yeah, that's it! +Now which bungalow is it? +It's that one. +Well it's, it's all empty! +Is it? +Yeah. +Oh course, she died didn't she? +Yeah. +Yeah. +I, I had +But I thought she had a son living with her? +I think there was two sons weren't there? +And one son +Well I'm sure if you ever +Yeah. +you go past +Yeah. +down there, you have a look. +yes +One of +Well I +them's like +I like +as though it's all been emptied and, and erm I don't know! +yes! +Well I imagine +Right. +that it would go up for +Yeah. +sale wouldn't it, between them? +Mm. +yes! +The family like . +I only only saw it cos it, it's +No that +on a bad corner there and I don't like, I don't take +No! +my eyes off the road. +When did I,? +Oh! +I was gonna get this when it's chilly. +What, when they've all passed there? +That's right! +And I go back door here. +Yeah. +Yeah. +At like, like you're it's, you come into a bend and you've got to watch it and I er just had a quick glance at it like, isn't it, you know? +It's the second one. +Yeah. +And it looks as though it was all whitewashed and . +yes, and this new caravan one? +Tie them +Yeah. +at the front like, +But it looks , you know? +As though +Yeah. +it's been all what's er named. +Done , yes. +And I thought, well I , like, I know she's got married but I don't know +Yeah. +about the others. +yes. +I think one of them's separated. +Aha. +And he came back home. +Oh yeah. +But as for the others, I don't know. +Well last last year she came to the erm the social, we have it in November, a big social event er you know? +Well they all haven't got a soft mum and dad like you. +mum? +Seven and eighth on there. +Oh I'll, I'll tape it to myself. +Eh? +What? +Still have her on it. +A minute for that please. +He's not very good at making gravy is he? +No. +What are you waiting for Kimmy? +She's waiting to follow me upstairs. +You're not going upstairs. +You want a coat on outside. +I've still got the runs by the way. +I've still got the runs by the way. +I might not be here next week. +I've got to go and see the doctors I think. +Do you want to take a are you still taking malaria? +Yeah. +No, it was erm +Aye. +Well when you've finished taking them, three pound odd a packet they are. +I don't care. +There's a bug going round, so I hear. +Why didn't he take that with him and put it in for a minute, for god's sake. +Pardon? +Pardon mother? +Mm mm +Did you drain the water off them? +lovely sprouts. +Didn't put any in actually cos er in when they er freeze. +Here, put this over the top. +Or your potatoes will go dry. +Thank you mother. +Does he want a smack in the mouth? +What do you want Kim? +I'm trying to use that one and then you can put your fresh one in. +You'd better do it. +Hasn't it been a lovely day? +Very windy out. +Very windy out isn't it? +Your nan's missing some chocolate eclairs. +Missing some chocolate eclairs? +Oh dear, I wonder where they've gone. +Hang on I'll have a look in the safe. +Hark do I do I hear the pools man coming round? +Mm nice. +Not steak again. +Steak seven times a week, well. +You're gonna mess with that and it'll be crackling all over Did you know? +And has me mum been? +No. +Well where was she this morning when I was phoning? +Where was she this morning when I was phoning up? +Eh? +Alison. +Alison . +God, the whole house smells of sprouts now. +And steak. +Alison. +You've gotta write down who speaks on it. +Have you? +Oh this damn thing! +Every time I come in this sink it's full of pots. +Isn't it awful. +My god isn't it terrible. +And I'm sick of having steak every night mother. +You're dreaming again +Can't we have porridge for a change? +Who's she on the phone to now? +She's not on the phone, she's talking to me mum. +Drag it off his knee Kim. +You can have the gravy. +And that's all you're getting. +Is there onions in that gravy? +No. +We did have some but it went. +Alison must have I don't know why Alison puts water in these cos you don't need it. +Cos there's water in the frost. +Hang on Kim. +Chucked a big piece of salmon away, Herbert didn't want it. +Oh! +Well I didn't know whether you wanted it or not! +I did two steaks and he only wanted one. +Well I don't know whether you like salmon or not. +Do you? +Mm. +The food your daughter gives me anything'll do . +All I've had today was a pastie, I thought I'd fast a bit. +This fasting makes you hungry. +Doesn't it Kim? +Damn again. +Take something for it. +Here you are mate. +Very nice that, very nice. +Eh? +Me stomach starts to churn. +Everything I eat my stomach starts churning. +Why does it record on that way and yet it's running that way? +Because you're probably doubling doubling up on the recording. +What do you mean? +Will you stop it! +Are you ready my little +Does this look a mess? +swamp duck. +Yes. +No. +Does it look a mess? +No it doesn't. +It's all creased innit? +Well it was er you washed it. +I didn't. +Well does it or doesn't it? +No it's okay. +Good. +I'll just go and get the Volvo out. +Aren't we going in the Rolls? +No, forget that. +Who's acting the ? +That's what they damn want isn't it? +Does it want some new batteries in? +It's flickering. +Yeah. +Alright evening mother, evening father, how are we? +You alright? +Ready to go? +Go and see Sally visiting picture looks nice +eh? +the picture looks nice +eh? +Where are you gonna put the gold? +It stinks of er +Eh? +it stinks in here, what you've been varnishing? +Where just walking at the moment at cottage hospital now. +Evening I'm the good looking one +Hello +How are you? +Yeah, hi you +I heard your mother's voice +Hello love +hello, how are you? +I +How you keeping? +Oh, I'm not too bad love, cos how are you +Alright thanks +Oh +You're looking well, have you been ill? +Eh? +You're looking well, have you been ill? +Who's is this here? +No you're alright, don't worry, it's alright there, don't worry do you want it moving? +Want it +Put it down over here +Yeah I put it, I'll put it there and if you want, if you want it back +put it on for us +I'll bring it back for yeah, or I might not +These chairs are a bit heavy aren't they? +Yes they are a bit +Eh? +They are +How are you ladies alright? +It's alright don't worry +Don't worry, don't worry, you're alright +Oh they all fight round here +Well you're looking well +Oh I look well I +Yeah +I +Well you pair have been fighting and all have you? +Eh? +You pair have been fighting as well have you? +No I've only just come in +Have you? +Oh right +Well she knows that she can't get +Three bracelets eh? +Brilliant, yeah. +I didn't go back to +It's very pleasant here isn't it? +Yes and +Ah +I don't know what it'll be like +, just looking for the grapes +I +No you're alright, don't worry, I could do with a week off work +Did you call to +Yeah, call going up, then there was a letter +and then er +went back up and just +books, rubbish +and then she had a party +I'm afraid to put one in the kitchen +I, that's right, with a +Do you know it was +this morning +Oh I, a few weeks +A few days +they close it down and then it was +That's right yeah +And then the doors are closing +I, that's right +Brenda's got something like that in +yes +she was worried about the television +No it won't get better +No +Still got a bit of fire in them +Well now and again like +I that's what I mean +Yeah +it's not like they're gonna be +no +like old times +in the morning +That's right, I +probably economise +You'd be no good working for +standing there waiting for +you'd be out +as a fact your hair at the back, don't tell anybody you're a hairdresser for god's sake. +Pardon? +Where's Kim? +Over at Dave's, Dave's at er, we're talking about the er, +there, talking about the greengage and er, says oh to Jackie, he said, oh yes Stuart's the M C for tonight, M C, M C, what do I want M C for? +I said well it gives them a bit of panache don't it? +Well, oh probably, here we go, got one on +ain't take +No +by the time you get up the road and get back why people really +along here I don't know +I don't know , I don't know +you don't have +I won't take this, I'll leave it here +yeah +well you're using my +well, in the left drawer on top of the fridge, lying beneath the fridge +yes I know +Ta ra love, see you later, take care now +She didn't say what, she's, she's had a bit of a set back since then, she's had gall bladder trouble you know +Oh yes +she's got over it quite well +She looks well doesn't she? +Yeah, yeah +Though she eats well though you know, oh does she, eats all her meat +Ah well +among others, you know we, me, me sister lives at home well, I've got another younger sister well we have er, you know, from, from +that's right, yeah +But my mother's no trouble is she, eh? +No trouble +No, no +at all +and she's always busy either knitting +Oh she's +or she's doing a embroidery or doing something +alright +and she said , because don't like the idle hand +Idle hand +if she's not doing that she's winding wool ready, she does +I don't know whether you've ever seen +oh yes +but I went to Lake +in, in Cumbria, and I bought, but I saw, the first time I've ever seen it, it was like a +wood and it had made, and it had got the four nails at the top +Yeah +and she uses that you know and she makes rugs and +They're, they're wonderful those and then she stitches them all together +Yeah, yeah +I made +in September +yeah, I made in the West Chest , Cheshire a +she was making a quilt wasn't she? +Oh I +a back, a back rest +Made a big pile like, patch like that you know +Yeah +and another big one, ooh it was lovely +She'd been in a car accident, she was there, er broken pelvis +Oh dear +No, she was +Oh I, I +send me one, she made herself +Yeah +I, yes, oh +She said would you like to me to get you +Are we going now? +chucking out time +chucking out time +and that, I said I couldn't sit down and do that I said, I +Ooh she won't be in here that long +No, +you'll be, you'll be at home before the +on your feet +I don't think I'll be that long +No +No +it just depends when it stops weeping you see +Oh +My doctor said +Oh you know, +well I'm, I'm quite happy, never going out, never see the outside world except I go in the ambulance +Yeah, oh yeah you're happy +Oh very happy +very good +I don't worry about er, you know, what's going on outside +No, no +No, don't +it's terrible +going out of business +they haven't got the money have they? +Are you here for good? +Here for good in here +No, no +I've got to get out as soon as I get, I've, I've promised at night I'd have, I'll, I'll have someone for a night, I've got to have someone at night as well as the day +That's right, yes +I didn't want to, but +No, well if you get someone trustworthy +Well I, I, I, I've see Mrs I've had her for so many, many years +Oh well +but you see, I thought, I've got to get somebody strange now, for, for, for night time +Oh +it won't be the same, I, I'm sure I can manage on me own, well I'm sure I can, but they say I can't, I've a another fall plus a +Yeah +it wouldn't matter would it? +I don't know I can't sleep +Well I don't know +if you've had a good innings. +Well I don't know +Your here as long as he'll let you stay +Well that's right we can't go before our time +No I know. +You can't jump the gun +No you can't. +Who won with the football last night Liverpool or? +No, Italy ten all weren't it? +Yeah tonight +Tonight +Oh +Do you know her? +No I'll ask her +Oh yeah +I didn't spill that one at all +No +Now where you going now? +What times getting on now +Ten past eight +Trying +trying to get rid of us +Yeah, I +Warm in here though, isn't it? +Is it warm? +Yeah +Are you warm? +That's right +are you warm enough? +I'm warm enough, yeah +Right +Patience +That's it I think +When are you going to do the bucket work Sally? +There's all that bucket work waiting to be done, eh, the bucket work +I, huh, +bucket work, leave that +there now, getting the tray from the bottom, oh yes you need +shoving it up, oh. +Oh never mind you'll be in a bungalow soon +Oh yes +you'll be in your bungalow soon +how soon now? +How soon? +Oh it depends when she's going to have the builders in +Oh +She wouldn't leave by there +No +No +Well she don't want to leave, I think it's a silly thing to leave it +Mm +you miss all your friends and everything you know. +Elsie had these lights +Oh yeah +that's what we're gonna have +he said we see, I we're gonna have them +We see , we see, have them +You can't take your money with you. +You can't +But it's something, something in you, you have to rush don't they? +Why won't they wait? +Why should they? +Why should they? +No, why should they? +I have +Take the rest of it +pleasure spending +No why, they've got lives of their own +Well +let them live it, don't want saving for the children, no, they don't want nothing +Well +They've had far more than what we've ever had +Yes, you're right there, yes +mind you I'd like to be like that +Yes, yes +Eh, but have nothing in this farming today is it? +Mm? +Nothing in this farming today though +No, no +with these lads +no +oh yes +they stand +for little money +yeah, that's right +you know +oh it is, aye. +used to go round with the milk you know +Yes I know +I remember him going, going off with the milk +Yeah +Yeah +Oh I +Lady of leisure +I wouldn't exactly say a lady of leisure +She looks very well +I get up and I'm, in fact I lit a fire and his breakfast is ready when he comes in +It is as well +I eat quarter to eight +What time? +I get up about seven +I get up at +five I have to get up +I used to get up +It a be a good +now though, wouldn't it? +There's a lot of houses there now though +I have to take care you know, I have to take tablets with me everywhere I go. +I keep very well really, I do quite a bit of walking, you know? +Yes +And quite a lot of writing too +But I don't +and it's not on a bike either +No, no, he's just bought me a car now +What you got? +Well I had a Fiesta, I've got a Volvo +They do, don't they? +Yeah +Alright squire? +Alright squire +Eh? +No I don't know that lady over there +Good evening Derek +Good evening sir, like a pint? +Oh I wouldn't mind sir, thanks a lot, that's awfully kind of you. +Would you like a pint of +Er, go on then if +Seventy shillings, oh that'll do. +No it won't +Think about it +Yeah, I know I did. +Well it's not bad for seventy shillings see that +Go on, come on, +It's one pound +Two pound, I beg your pardon +See that's why, it's his wife +Oh have you, +Not that I know of, no +What? +Eh? +Er one pound twenty +Bloody hell +I just get it settled then I'll give you the benefit of the doubt +I've been trying that for me stomach since I've came back +So you're saying +sorry +no, I've had er, +I had to go to the doctors, carrying on, outside everything +it's only there pal +I miss +You drop off when you're in +it might rain tomorrow don't it? +I said it looks like rain tomorrow +Not bad +You got fluoride in this, in this to clean you teeth? +I, +I think it's worse +I would have thought the three, the first three, the first would of been three, right, but still, you know we want +ironed out the creases +Oh yes, right +when, when you were next in, being a regular +you're, say, a nominal +What is it exactly then? +What's this one then? +That's eight +stronger, can do a +I'm not into strong ale +Well it's not strong, strong +Yeah, yeah +I find strong ale very heavy +Yeah +ah, what, I, is that you? +I mean it's all +don't mind what you're drinking then +No that'll do me +I didn't have anything last Saturday +you know what I mean? +I er +I bet you're all wondering what that is in the +erm, I'm just not getting it +unknown territory, you know what it's like with a van, don't you, and then +yeah +gotta get done +Yeah +I'm arguing with them, when I'm +I give it a break for a couple of, well about three Sundays now +Tell her I'm sorry, tell her I need my babe I'm a tell her, we've, we've +I mean, a couple of them I like +I remember a go, a go with some of them that I thought I could do, but realised I can't do, do you know what I mean? +I, I, I was, about, what I, I do, I bought an Elvis Presley one er a Tom Jones one, that drinks one, you know, that I like, it's, it's +well I like singing it, what I mean, I think what it is I'm looking for the old, I'm not being funny, I'm looking for the old voice +I don't like me voice, I'm not liking it at all and I think that's what putting me off on taping it and listening to myself after, I don't, I like, I like to +I shouldn't do it, I'm not gonna do it any more, I'm not gonna tape me own voice and listen to it I just +not listening to me own voice +Left a good job in the city, working for a man +Yeah, quite smooth actually +Yeah, yeah, I thought that +Hiya, yeah +Yeah, some of them I like, some of them I don't like, er +nice number that, er nice number, you see like that song, like you've choose +Well I can tell you that +it's actually this one, it's not a +and it is a good one +well the phrase at the end, I'm just about get , but, +Yeah +get the phrase in the end, it's, what we've done is, at the end they go, they do a +rolling, rolling down the river, rolling, rolling, down the river, rolling, rolling down the river +and they, no, and they dropped rolling, rolling see what I mean? +Oh yeah +One, two and when you think, you think +You want another one? +Ooh I've got one another, it goes rolling on the river right +yeah +yeah +no +what I found very different, wrong with this +I mean you're like me, you want profession, you don't just come out and throw it, like that, you see +Oh we used to do one with erm the band, sometimes I'd get it right, others I wouldn't, but like you've just said they come +come up after and say, ah, that bit late for +I, but you did it for +Yeah, yeah, like I come down the other week and I +Yeah +I'm getting it, I'm getting over it very, very, very slowly +Here are, give us it back +I'm not being rude now, I've just come back from the Gambia and I haven't stopped +what you've just said now, and I'm gonna go now +I don't know what the hell it is +Oh well, I'll have to be careful, I don't know what er, what's, what happened +I said, I said to them, oh I hope he don't think I'm +but I said because you bring some guy, you'll lend me the room on a Sunday afternoons, up and down +you know, put the whistle on, and then bring them up and that'll be me +Yeah, I +I like do the Tom and, I won't, Tom and Jerry, I might do the Tom Jones one, cos I, I feel comfortable at +Which I don't +You don't have to be beautiful +Awfully sorry love, have to er dash off a bit + +Well you can do. +I'm going to +How long will you be doing your cake? +I'm not making a cake, I'm making marmalade this +Oh. +this afternoon. +Still got Christmas cake, so +I know. +But +Anyway , what's on? +How much of that is left? +Not much. +Of the cake? +Not much. +Film. +Film. +Leave the washing up we'll both +Alright. +do it together. +You sure? +Film, Seven Cities of God , that's on now. +Don't want that, do you? +No. +The other one is Thorn Birds +Spea , er speak to the thing and loudly or +Do you think it's taking? +Shall have to see. +I is it running? +Has the, is the red light on? +Ah! +Oh! +I see. +Same as the other one. +Oh oh! +You know what's on tonight? +Er, anything any good? +Well! +Grace and Favour, you know th er Are You Being Served? +Mm. +That's on. +A new series but called Grace and Favour at eight. +Is it +But +a series, a series or just one +A new one! +A new +new series altogether? +Yeah Gra . +Yeah, the similar carrying on +Oh. +from the Grace Brothers. +That should be rather nice. +But on the comedy channel on the satellite it's, the old er Are You Being Served. +Mm. +So you can decide +Choose +what you're going to see, the new series or repeat of the +Oh ah! +old. +So +The new series is alright though. +The older series was alright but +Yeah, well we'll have to see. +Anyway what was all that on the news? +I didn't hear it at one o'clock, did you? +It's some what? +There's a +What's the matter? +big lorry coming up, big yellow lorry coming up the road. +Oh it's got sweeping brushes. +They're probably putting sand e sand in the roads. +Clear, I hope he's clearing the salt up. +No he's not. +I bet he's putting salt in the road. +Yeah. +Oh well. +Half inch of frost and you get the salt people out. +Mm. +Well . +As soon as it's strikes your, the bottom of your car it's it begins to rust. +Well +And ne ,e it, and is, if it's going to freeze tonight you can't wash it off. +Well we shan't be going out in the car today shall we? +Or tomorrow. +No. +So +Do you think we ought to go round Peter and Joan's. +No. +She likes to be told. +Just leave +About fetching you home. +No. +I'm gonna take her home. +And then you can't have a drink cos you've got to take her haven't +Oh yeah! +you? +True. +Mm. +No, wait till the weather's a bit better. +And it might be snowing tomorrow. +Er, is the market o always crowded like that so you're pushing? +Well, it is if you go in +So as you get . +Friday and Saturday. +Well it mostly is in the week anyway. +How about ringing George up? +Well no, if he's suffering from depression you don't want +Do you think he'll come for lunch? +No. +Don't wanna ask him this week. +Besides he wouldn't come at +I said I wouldn't give him . +sh , such short notice. +Well he may have Madge and Tom last week, I don't +Now can you tell me if this marmalade's set? +I can't see very well. +Bring it er, bring it in er to the fro , lounge. +It should be on the table at the back. +Have you got it? +Yeah. +I don't think it's +Bring it in to here. +I don't think it's qui , is it wrinkling? +Just a, ah! +Well don't hold my wrist! +This is my bad wrist +You wicked girl! +He's alright . +I don't think it's quite ready is it? +It's, no it's not er it's not crinkling on the surface. +Cos it's not clear. +Ah, a few more minutes. +Put these slippers on. +Have you seen, leave it on. +Look! +I don't think it's, the swe , the swelling's going down at all do you? +No. +And it's, it's it seems very hot. +That's cos I've left the thing off? +Do you think you ought to go to the doctors again? +Don't know. +We'll put the bandage back on though. +Have you seen my bandage? +How about ri er ring, ringing them up? +Yeah. +Ooh here it is! +No! +They'll say come, they'll want to see it. +Well show it to them and see. +No, no I'm not going all the way down today. +Are you putting that back on? +Mm, that's not quite ready is it? +No. +What about the picture? +What to show Jackie? +Well, when she comes home I think +She is home. +Been +Well +home a little while. +no I mean when Tom's home. +Show it them together? +Well, perhaps I'll them later. +Oh, could do. +I think it's good! +Bit of extra +Where you going to put it that's the important thing. +This , in there. +No! +I mean, on the wall! +You're not putting it on under there! +Whereabouts on the wall? +This? +Yes. +Well I ain't bothered about that yet! +We got other things to do haven't we? +Well if you wanted it, if you, now you've bought it you want to decide where you're going to put it. +Well put it in in five minutes can't I? +Are you going to show her or not? +Oh I'm going to show her! +But I was just wondering where you was gonna put it. +And I thought it'd be extra +Can't over the radiator. +Well she'll want it in the house and all that! +I know. +I said I know she will! +I'm talking when, when they've seen it! +Well, we're not bothered about a yet! +Yes I +Well you er you, I thought you were going to ask her to look at. +I will do when Tom's home. +Then he can come and look any time. +Yeah. +I expect she'll be making, probably busy making +I like it very much don't you? +Yeah. +It's unusual to say the least. +I think it's er +I shall ask how, when it was taken. +Last summer. +After that building at the back was finished. +Must have been! +Yes, cos it's there. +About that July. +Ah! +I I was, I were help him point it at the time. +You know the pear tree where you asked me +Yeah. +to prune it it's still over the garage. +Yeah. +But you didn't prune it until about October did you? +No. +But i ,i , I've not i , on this sh picture the pear tree is ri ,we all over the garage. +Over the garage over the back, the other garden. +So er, it's +I think it's July, August taken. +It's not been recently has it according to that? +Well it couldn't be recently could it because the flowers are out? +Well that's another point. +You can tell which flowers are in bloom. +Do you think they will like it? +You know, to buy one? +What next door? +Mm. +Probably. +Although their lawn looks a bit +But er +threadbare doesn't it? +Well he did say er, ours i your greens, your grass is greener. +Yep. +Well we haven't cut ours since have we? +Are you going to show it Tom and Madge? +Yes. +When we get there? +What take it with us? +Yes. +Could do. +That reminds +I don't suppose +me +don't suppose they'd come and a me , for tea would they? +Well we had them last week, I'm not going to ask them. +They wouldn't want to come again anyway so soon. +Tom doesn't like going out. +Like you do. +Well home's always the best. +I suppose we're at home today. +Er, when's that Churchill thing on? +When's th the Argentina one? +That's next week, but no , I know that. +Gotta get that again. +I've seen one or two erm previews of it but I've never found out when it is. +Er er the slab those yellow slabs they show up pretty well don't they? +Mm. +In the red +Did you know what was on this morning? +red . +Les Miserables. +Eh? +Charles Laughton was on this morning at nine twenty five. +Who was? +Charles Laughton! +What? +Oh in that er +Les Miserables. +Oh yes! +It's where he is a +Mhm. +he's always after a prisoner int he? +Escaped prisoner. +And he ends up , he ends er, drowning hisself ? +Mm. +Because he'd been pursuing the same man for years. +What, I used to se , see the book in the library but I never drew it out until I, recently. +It's a good story that. +Mm. +I liked it very much. +Mind you, Charles Laughton put it a bit of beef into it didn't he? +Mm. +No, there's not much on tonight really. +Nothing worth looking at? +Well, there's just that er, Are You Being Served. +I suppose you wanna see . +They're gonna do another series did you read it? +Yes, that, that was it! +It's go it's got both on at eight tonight. +Both on are they? +I told you that earlier +Oh. +on! +The new one and the old one. +Oh that's strange idea! +Well one's on Sky and one's on B B C. +Any Questions at eight five. +So you can have that tomorrow at lunchtime then can't you? +Yeah. +Well I think I'd better go and look at the jam again. +I think it's er wants a few more minutes so +Yeah. +switch that off. +Go and have another five minutes and +Switch it off and leave it. +Are they both down? +Yeah. +Is it rolling? +Er, do you want any whisky in your tea? +I can have it, yeah. +Want some? +Yeah, just a drop. +Is it alright? +Mhm. +Are the pigeons gone? +Yes. +Is that blackbirds? +Blackbird and a robin. +I think that's setting now isn't it Arthur? +Blackbird and robin been? +Yes. +They've had some sultanas. +That's setting int it +Mm. +it? +Mm. +Yeah, you se , you know I might go er down that shed. +Throw it away now if you don't want +If I don't want what? +Well you don't wanna put it on the ship do you? +It's not on the ship, it's only on the table. +I've got to jar that in +Have the robin and blackbird +in ten minutes. +gone off then when they had +They had some sultanas. +And a bit of potato. +Okay? +Yes. +What are you going to do about that conifer? +You can't leave those steps and +Well I've to ask, remove them before they plant +Well I shall want, they're closed now int they, on Mondays? +Well I shall move it before bed time. +Er er +The wind's gone. +There's no forecast for +I don't know. +We 'd better get the new +Violent storm or anything? +We better put the news on at four, just before four. +Mm. +But you see, if I'd have gone in Wilkinsons I could have bought another this morning. +Well, that's alright it's clean. +Ah, I know but if yo , if it's, if we get a gale again we shall +Well +want something to tie it up with won't we? +Oh I know. +I can take that out and put it back. +It's no problem. +And that old you kept er asking about, it's er tying the ro you remember the rose bush? +Mm. +Mm +Well it fell on the slabs had to tie it right +I remember. +back. +I remember now. +That's a bit lighter for that and if there's a +Well +gone late haven't they? +Well +There's +late i it draws out doesn't it? +Yeah. +Getting light. +A few minutes every day. +Did the robin have any sultanas? +Yeah. +They'd all been. +He's a quick mover int he? +Mm. +Like a little dart. +Oh ! +You don't know what the forecast is then for tomorrow? +No, if you put Sky news on just before four +You get the +You get the weather. +Mm. +And see about that bomb in ta , in er you know the Prime Minister's place? +I, I just heard the outcome of it. +Oh, has there been another one today then has there? +I was in the kitchen and I just heard something about a bomb near the Prime Minister's +The Prime Minister's establishment. +and I said to you what, what was it? +And you said I wasn't listening! +You didn't know. +So +No. +put the four o'clock news on and we might. +Oh! +It ain't four . +No, until then. +Er,perha +Leave it on now. +Oh. +It is er And get Madge and Tom if you like, er, when we get, we'll nip over for the week, you know? +Instead of taking the eggs. +Well I've got to get some jars from them because I've got another lot of marmalade to make. +Well let's go down for the jars and then they can, see +They can take that. +see what they say for ten minutes. +Could do. +We'll see. +It depends on the weather tomorrow, if there's frost or anything. +True! +I'm not going if it's frosty! +Or salty. +Well if they put salt on the road, according to the A A,i +Already said that! +it starts to bu +No. +Do you want another cup. +Give me +Yes please. +your cup. +Give me want any more whisky in? +I'm starting to +Where, the front or the back? +The back. +Oh dear! +it's all over the damn ! +Oh I'm going to put Sky on so I can erm get the news. +Your tea's here! +Eh? +Your tea is here! +Well it'll get cold! +I'm going to drink it! +Oh this is set now. +They nearly went! +Well you shouldn't have put them there should you? +But they're still in their er +What what Got mine yet? +Must have been there +Now tomorrow we've got to get a sack of potatoes. +We could wait till Monday but that's about all. +Well wait until Monday when there's salt on the roads. +Why? +Well you know what salt does to underneath the car. +The bodywork. +Well I know! +You're always on about that! +Well +I'll have to ring Cath up to come and fetch er Penny's birthday card. +What Sunday or Saturday? +No, she'll come Sunday if she comes at all. +Cos if we're not going out tomorrow we shan't be able to deliver it. +And it's her birthday on Sunday. +So +How old is she? +Forty? +Forty one! +I think. +Getting on! +Not very old is she? +Well creeping up isn't it? +Well when you think you're seve , what are you? +Seventy five I am +se +now! +Yeah and I'm eighty two. +Well +She must be well down the birth rates. +Ah ah! +Anyway, I ought to ring er Rhona up and see how Penny is. +What about Joan? +Have you, and er rung +Well! +It's about +not rung +time they rang me! +George? +How about Ge , asking George to come round for a meal? +He won't come at short notice. +I'll perhaps ring him later. +Not short notice, it's +Well if +Friday night! +if Catherine says he's got clinical depression we +Aha. +don't want that here! +Well I could +Yo +lighten depression. +Yes er , I know! +That's what I mean! +You'll make him worse! +Or he'll make you worse! +So +Scintillate, scintillate little star how I wonder what you are? +Up above th the world star +What's all that in aid of? +Like a tea tray in the sky +In the sky. +my dad used to say. +It was a no a version of it. +Was it? +Well are you going to look at the telly +Any Questions for me. +have any questions? +Oh well I'll look at the telly then. +Is th , is there anything on? +Yes. +You know there is! +That Grace +Oh! +and Favour! +See what it's like. +Probably be a bit daft, but still +Is that th se , er the +Grace Brothers! +Grace Brothers? +Mm, only it's i in a +New version like? +Ye , well it's not in the shop, I think it's big country house they've turned into a hotel or something. +Pretty good write up. +Mm. +So looks like a day in tomorrow. +You'll be able to do my kitchen door. +My, that cupboard door. +Or have you got to go in the garage and do that? +I've got to. +Different, see to the do ,swi sliding door in the garage with a vice to open it. +It's gonna be bitterly cold! +Well you can't go in there if it's too cold. +Catch the flu. +No! +Er, I'll think I'll let Joan ring me shall I? +I always have to ring her! +Why should I? +Ring her up. +Well Peter sometimes ring. +No he doesn't. +He speaks, when Joan rings, or Colin. +But Anyway, have you seen Les today? +No, I bet +Edie's husband. +Don't think I've ever seen +Well he came by didn't he? +Today? +I've not seen him. +Well didn't you wave to him through the window? +No, not today. +Oh. +That was yesterday after the snow had stopped, he was doing his shopping and in the afternoon. +And he and we didn't really I only just saw him fleetingly. +So +Well ho , how old would he be? +He's a year younger than me. +Mm. +And she's not as old as me either. +Yet I could I give her quite a few couldn't +Mm. +I? +By the looks and actions. +How old is Madge se , eighty? +Eighty one Madge is. +Getting ba , on the re old age syndrome. +Well, we have been for some time. +And er should we leave the heat on all night? +I could do I suppose. +If it's going to be cold. +Mm? +We don't want any freeze ups do we? +Or should we leave it on pretty late, turn it off later? +You can do as you want. +Wouldn't hurt to leave it on will it? +No. +You might get a hot in the night. +Well, you do and yet we want heat in the, in the pipes. +We'll see. +Nothing on telly till eight. +If you wanna hear Any Questions at eight fifty five. +You can always have certain procedures. +I suppose I haven't got to keep within in that parameter. +What do you mean? +It's about time you you switched the heating and learnt how to do it. +And bothered yourself with it, you know how to do it but you don't can't be bothered to do it. +Ha! +It's not that. +I don't like mundane jobs. +Mm, that's not +It's women's work. +No it isn't. +Do you want any more cake? +No thank you. +Well don't drink that too quickly! +That +Yeah. +was a bi big one. +It's cold. +Is it? +Oh. +Yeah. +I thought it had gone. +Will you want any coffee later? +No. +There's no rush. +Suppose I better put some on, I've used it all up. +Finish with engines. +Oh I don't think Dutch coffee was +Oh right, yeah. +was good as that other I used to get, and yet it was a lot more expensive! +And I will , I can't remember what it was but I don't think I'll get it again. +They'll find me at Nagines, where all the girls are dreams! +What's made you to think of that? +The Merry Widow. +Just like to do one more show before I die. +Oh! +Shut up! +Pity it all fell through innit? +Mm. +All over the is anybody doing it? +Well there is one or twos, but +Oh. +nothing like the number we had +Is Lily doing in it? +No, she di , hadn't done it for years! +She's got arthritis back. +I didn't know. +Ooh! +Mary took over. +Well Mary took over. +I shouldn't mind going to see the King and I, but you don't like that do you? +No I ge , I got to see it +I know we've seen about six times +got tired of it. +on the stage but +And er +it's nice! +Yul Bryner did it well but his +No! +I mean the amateurs that is, well not the amateurs but a professional +Oh I see. +company doing it at the Haymarket! +I always think there's a little shade of big headedness with Yul Bryner! +Well there is with you sometimes! +Lots of times! +Lots of big headedness! +Yes ! +At least I practise what I preach. +Sometimes. +How many more of those records have you got to tape? +Mm. +A fair number, but we're getting through them. +Have you sorted out which you've done and which you haven't? +Oh I know. +Yeah I've wrote it all, booked in. +Aha. +Looks quite tidy now. +You're getting all methodical in at last. +Which is blooming what I said +Well I was thinking +said in the first place! +I was thinking it might, seriously, and we used to say hands up all those who haven't seen the sea? +Oh don't go back i +Forest of hands, bar two. +And er well I er I was one of the two. +The lad next to me he'd been three times! +His hand went up just the same. +Life doesn't change much does it? +Well! +You get the twisters don't you? +That's not twisting, that! +And probably, mother said about the linen and a suitcase not to, not to put a hand up. +And yet, the one who'd been, he said I've been twice hi his dad se , er rides stallions fo on those two wheel tongas to the, take the coal to co , to . +And er, so I mean he was pretty well, he kept about six shire horses, those big +Mm. +big plates of meat horses, and er there you are, that's how it goes I suppose. +Your getting as bad as my Aunt Ada. +What? +Being out of breath? +Keep telling the same old tales! +Is she the one with a teapot in suit rack? +No. +No. +She's not. +I could see the foreman now! +He come across with his un one of the managers and he says what's the idea? +He says of where you get er, you've got a so , cup, a saucer with your cup of tea, he says we never get one! +I said well it's my wife's er aunty . +I , you know, she got quite annoyed. +No! +He was only pulling your leg. +Oh. +He can take a joke. +at the same place er we were putting machinery in after the war, you know +Mm. +and getting them up from the cellars. +Said they had to two +Oh yes! +factories into one. +I know. +They had to concentrate. +Well they had to get their own machines out an there's one old boy had a stitcher, a be he looked ninety, he probably wasn't, and er he was chu , it was just after lunch and he was chewing apple and old Jo , I was working with so you know, Jim someone's I said look at the silly old B, I said! +He's really enjoying that apple, I says er, and it's a waste of time er, eating anything! +So they look at me! +Oh Jim we got a big four foot o , you know, opening in the floor, lowering the machines and bringing them up. +He nearly fell down for looking ! +But he were really going at it you know. +Mm. +But er that tickled Jimmy that did. +But still, if you can't joke you can't do anything can you? +I know. +See children with skateboards they amaze me! +Mm, I know. +Anyway , I bet they cost seventy pound don't they? +No! +They don't cost that much. +I think they're about twenty pounds. +Now, what have you done now? +Straight down these trousers! +Saw it it's going in. +Do children still go errands er for old ladies? +Mm, I think so. +I don't see any round here. +Well +I used to be, and I was +some of them. +willi , willing and a a kindly nature but we if it's in the middle of a game you know, and er, you know how you are when you're playing a game well they'd fetch me away to run for some cheese for an old lady. +And I, I ran there and ran back to continue my game, at play like and I heard a,mo , her say to mother well I like your lad to go says th look at this cheese it's never been unwrapped he said those other lads he says it's always looks as if it's been unwrapped and +Mhm. +a bit broken off! +Mm! +Yeah. +I suppose lads will always be +Well! +I suppose you were doing it +You did in those days. +Some of them never saw cheese did they? +Well no +In the first +ever so cheap that! +first war. +Not in +Not in +the first war. +Cheese always was +Mm. +cheap! +Mm. +Right up to Second World +Mm. +War! +It was slashed then. +Course i e , it's very expensive now but it it only used to be about one and six a pound right up to the end of the war and it's now two pounds a pound and +Mm. +more! +And the milkman he used to sell it out of a +Yeah I know, you bought it with a jug of water +Water. +and a big cap. +He said er ooh go go and see if we can get a jug of water, he says er wash my cans in. +Mm! +Really? +It's anybody's guess whether it was the cans or the milk he washed out. +But still, that's life! +Mm. +It doesn't change much. +I used to run, pick ladies smocks up down the tailors. +Course, it wasn't like it is now. +It was all tailors. +Oh no! +And er you don't see lady's smocks today do +Mm. +you? +And all the ? +A pink, not a pinky but, pale pinky violet about four petals. +I have an idea. +Paley pale sort of er +I thought we saw some in Swidlan Woods once. +Oh. +Not sure. +Cowslips, they used to be very +Aye I know! +Used to make cowslip wine! +pretty. +Mrs used to make cowslip wine. +There used be a field out at er +Oh. +by Grave Hall went down and took them. +There used to be loads down there! +When I was cycling lovely summer afternoon, well er four i , about four o'clock and er there was three farmers round a big sign, in in there and tha that's where I went up cycled. +Didn't get u , dismount I just sat on the saddle like with my foot on the floor wandering what they was up to. +And they were, you know the stallion they was helping him put it . +I know. +That tickled me to death! +When I told our fellers when I got back to the depot wouldn't believe me! +Yeah, they go got it and swung it up like that, and I'm sure to the stallion couldn't find where it was ! +I thought well, what a carry on! +Mind you, if they got big hooves like plates of meat you know, great big +Oh yes. +you know it may be heavy to +Mm. +to lift up onto a mares back. +Oh shut up! +What? +I shouldn't last long. +It's happened more than that. +Probably still does. +And, the same road Tobozier the, you know the ditches for +Mm. +running the water off, they didn't have banks. +And er farmers used to throw his cabbage plants in the bottom of the ditch and leave them there till he was ready to +Plant them. +Plant them. +Mm! +Now we, we come out with plants and push them into the ground straight away don't we? +Still each to his own. +The bulbs are shooting up now have you noticed? +Mm. +Yeah! +I've not been up the garden at the back but those on the front are. +Poor old Charlie ! +I told you about him ever so +I re I reckon that er +he +I reckon that was er some relation to the, he used to live opposite us. +Er, because her name was +Don't know. +and and her, some people next door were like barge people. +Mm. +Mm. +So I reckon this +Ye yeah. +was +Probably was. +the same. +And there was some mystery about her because the kids' names unless my mother always called her by her, by her name before she was married, but she always called her , and yet the boys was . +Mm. +Course, as a kid you don't think of that, but there was never was a father there or something so not that I could ever remember so that, that was the fire crackling. +Yeah, she er we went to the river shore, you know the bridge near o on our part of the road and he were behind the trees and er I was wo wo , it were one of his sons who were with us, you know, Tommy and he was shouting +Ah! +I reckoned I've heard my mam say Tommy. +Go back! +Go back! +And cos he didn't want any cos he overstayed his +Illegal worker. +he, he were due to go back in the army and he overstayed +Mm. +his leave for three days. +They found him eventually. +what it was, Foundry Lane though, it was a pudding, what we used to call pudding bag street, there was big circle round the bottom and R D Smith and Sons manufacturers +Oh I remember that. +and er as I came to visit mother and she we th went to know and la , called landaus +Mm. +small wheel, you know, with a white horse he came, you know on er granite cobbles horses hooves, er he went to the bottom along this circle to turn round as he came back every door were open and we and er heads out, they thought it was a fu , you know, horse +Mm. +horse and landau a funeral and they're all watching! +Mother loved it! +We went off and we got to a steep hill, we all had to get out +And walk ! +three lads and two ladies, and we had,we the three lads, Bill, George and me we pushed at the back, and the two ladies mother and Vi just walked. +And er it's funny that though, how they all come out to look. +But still they used to go and fetch meat, there used to be horse slaughterers near +Ooh! +I don't want to hear all about that again! +Abbey Park. +No, we don't want to hear +And er +all about that again! +As I say, your getting just li like +Who is? +aunt Ada! +That's cos this horse was lovely! +No! +Must be getting near the end of the tape +Surely you +mustn't it dear? +you lived a young life didn't you? +What did you do, just skip and play hopscotch and snobs? +No! +Girls don't say anything +Mm. +Well there, so No. +We used to read and and +Piece piece piece of coal as long as that, you see that fire? +Mm. +Piece of coal as long as that, a foot wide and foot, like a foot square we pulled off a +And that's three feet that's the length of it. +and taking the coal to the from the wharf to the er gas works +Gas works. +for coating and they've jumped on the wagon. +There's like two pieces sticking out at the back you could ge get your foot on it and pull a a this hundred weight er piece of coal off ran up with it! +Mm! +And then when we came out of school Dean sent a firelight at people. +We, I used, erm the school were next to that so I, it was my job to go and, on you know the scrap +Light the fire. +heap. +Well you know when they made fire lighters? +Mhm. +Those that didn't make it, crumbled +Mm. +up they threw out onto a dust heap and I used to go and sort out all these bits and er +Make the fire. +ma ma , to give them to George and he made the fire. +And er they were the sort of things you had to do. +And in, you know Woodboy Street Sunday night in the summer when it was a heat wave they'd got little bow windows then in Woodboy . +Mm! +two foot from the cobbles, you know, like +Mm. +with a little sill +And I seem to remember one house +and er +see them when I was little. +Yes, well it's Sunday night and they're always fighting and that and he, he came out four rows of the bow wi , they were twelve inches square he kicked three of them in! +He said I I'll show you who's boss of this house! +And, that was his idea of showing who was boss by kicking the windows in! +Mm. +Funny that was. +Then another Sunday there were two ladies one had got a bread knife and she cu , tried to cut her hair off. +And ne o , nearly scalped her! +Mm. +Oh life was rough there! +In pla , in Woodboy Street the police used to walk in twos! +Mm. +There was a little police station there. +Yeah I seem, I +You know Rushmore Square? +seem to remember that. +Yeah. +Mm. +That's all altered hasn't it? +Oh, not much. +Ye , Mark's Church still there and +Mm. +built of slate. +They're going to do something +So +with it I read +Mm. +the other day. +Well the Indians have go , ain't they, they're +No. +the church aren't they? +Not the Indians, no. +I forget what they were going to do there. +He's going to I think. +My feet are cold. +Mm. +Are yours cold? +No. +Very warm. +Oh! +Can you drink all that? +That one? +I'll go and get my coffee. +I got on well with the teachers there before I went to Bridge Road. +The lad I played with, he you know these steel fash , er what they put in ladies shoes now strip of steel in the ar , see the archway? +Mm. +And he'd got a strip of steel about four inches the half inch and he stuck at the back of his,i it was a long seat that were a four of us sat on with iron legs and they stuck it in the wood and you'd flip it and it i , you know how it would sto +Yeah. +shur shur shur shur shur shur shur,and this went on for a week an little teacher, Miss , she called out stop doing that! +And she ke , said yo when th , one day when there was, went out for play time quarter of an hour they rang the bell, she asked me to stop and help her with some papers. +But I found out afterwards that was a subterfuge. +When they'd all gone out she says er, what's that noise they keep making? +I says, oh it's a bit of a spring. +She said show me. +So I walked to the last bench what seated three pupils, I said, there it is look it's stuck about three inch. +She said, well what does it do? +So I flipped it, you know and it went +Mm. +shur shur shur shur,so she never said no more, just hooked it out and er took it the desk. +But she never remonstrated with er Len his name was, she never i , remonstrated with him. +And er I was out with him, his er his dad was dead his elder brother was crippled, and he had a job of is wo Wilkinson and Phil Kilpacks next door, he did something with the sweets and jam I think. +And, he couldn't walk properly. +And er he er we used to go there and play with, you know, three or four hours and keep him company, like. +And er we , one of the few times my dad came to Foundry Lane he I got a book, I think it were called Tiger Tim and, on the back they gave a model that you cut out with scissors and pu +A comi , a comic type of thing? +Yeah. +er, at the back page about nine inch by six wi you, were cut-outs and you cut it out and stuck them together to make a little paper, well, thick paper model. +And er oh it, it were about seven o'clock and I said I'll go and play with Len ti till half past, he says well be a , be back by half past eight. +And, my dad ever suspicious says er what are you going to do? +I says, well going to take, er cut these models out and stick them together I says he's, he collects them. +Anyway, when I come back about half past eight as I was told to do, you know, there were no disputing it, you couldn't sa , say half past eight and be nine, like they do today, my dad says er where's the model? +I says, oh I've left it there. +Ooh! +He says, how can you cut a, and make a model and then leave it? +I said well he's got a sa , brother that can't walk, he's crippled and sits there all week and that, does a little job for Wilkinson and Kilpack and er quite annoyed! +You know, he thought I'd been telling him a lie. +You know, as I hadn't brought the model to show him. +Mm mm. +Mm. +But I took no notice! +I hadn't got much time for him and he knew it! +He used to say you can't go out and kick your boots up! +And I put a toe out of one of them! +And i , it were just to show his authority, you know. +But mother used to play him down alright. +Yo , you'd only got to tell mother and she'd soon be after him! +That were the best when she chased him down +Ooh ! +Yeah ! +Fetched him out the hou , er out the factory! +Cos he hadn't been paying his maintenance you see. +Mother used to take me to the lawyers in in Newarks. +Nothing for you today Mrs . +Times I heard that! +Still! +It's all been built on now int it, down that area? +Ooh! +Yo +I should think now. +You know, oh I'm talking about the Newarks, er you know down that street +Mm. +where Downings factory was? +Mm. +When I went to pay the poll tax the other week +Mm. +they've pulled a lot of those big old offices and er, that factory down! +Don't know what they're going to build instead! +You know,no , next to Market +Mm. +Street, I don't know what the name of the road is. +Right around +Well that's all round there. +Bowling Green Street, around there. +Mark's Church and all +Rupert Street. +that's been +No! +Well I'm talking about in the town and Rupert Street. +Yeah I know, but all those areas +Oh well I know that! +were wiped out. +Well they were slums weren't they? +Yeah. +Before the war. +Too right they was! +Well +Mm mm There was a little girl no +Anyway what time is it? +Five and twenty to eight? +What time's your Any Questions? +Dunno. +I never looked. +Five past or ten past eight it is. +Mm. +Do you want any more drink? +No, I'm alright thank you. +Any more to eat? +No. +When shall we ask Jackie and Tom to look at that photo? +When you like. +They'll perhaps play golf +Mm. +tomorrow. +Show him in his er in his front door if you like if you don't want to bother them. +Well if you see him going off to golf +Mm. +tell him when he comes back. +Mm. +Can come in and have a drink. +All +Mm. +just depends what Jackie's doing. +Have a look at it then. +I wonder if they can hear that clock on there? +Which clock? +The one in th , the half minute one. +Aye! +That one. +I've just heard it you see, I wondered if it was being +Well yo +recorded on there . +Oh I see what you mean. +Possibly. +Not got to stop the clock for it have I? +No, well, there's no need to. +Just ig ignore the er tapes and just talk +This morning. +I know. +So that, what does that mean? +Well it was er +Stay in day. +Mm? +Stay in day? +That's certainly not in the erm events. +Could do some drawing I suppose. +Ready for the next painting. +Er +What are you going to do? +I'm, making another lot of marmalade. +Again? +Who's going to eat it all? +Me and you! +I li , I li , you can only make it this time of year. +Erm flakes +Here come the pigeons. +Er, yeah a few but not too many. +Leave it switched on . +Is it still switched on? +Yeah it's fine. +Oh a , oh I just wondered, any po , any post? +No, there's been, nothing that I could see. +Mm? +Funny! +Was you expecting some? +Yes. +Who? +What the who's going to be the beneficiary? +. +There's three blackbirds and six pigeons already. +Yes, well you'll have to go easy on that feed. +We only got one bag. +We got, we got we got two. +We only got one bag. +Is one e , the other one empty? +Well you only bought one bag, you couldn't carry any more without the car. +Ah but we got some left over from the others. +Had you? +Oh! +I +Yeah. +didn't think you had. +Is it er tantrum day today? +Yes it is, if you don't behave! +Do I, if +Well, keep leaving the doors, opening the doors to feed the birds! +Making it cold! +Most considerate and quiet chap in the district I am! +Ooh! +Ooh! +Ooh hoo! +Do you want any mushroom? +Eh? +Do you want any mushroom with your egg and +No , I'm not very +Just bacon and egg and tomato? +Not very partial to mushrooms. +Bacon, egg and tomato? +Mm. +Yes +Mm? +Yes please. +It's fungi int it your eating? +Ooh! +What you done now? +Your milk's boiling. +Is it burnt? +No. +It's alright. +Did you have any whisky in your tea? +I did. +Oh is that the one of +Oh. +the forks? +Two fingers that's all I had. +Well that's a lot in a cup int it? +Eat those while I do the bacon . +That needs to be switched off hasn't it? +And that? +Have you switched it off? +No! +Leave it on. +Are you going out this morning? +Evelyn? +but I can do if you like. +Have you eat those? +Aye. +The windows upstairs are all steamed up. +I'll attend to that. +I have a certain procedure and you have to keep within that parameter. +Don't be silly! +You should le , leave the window open at night like I do. +What, and let all the cold in? +Well I can't breathe. +And expend all your central heating? +I can't breathe whe , when you don't open the window at night. +What good's a +Sorry the egg's a bit er +what did ? +er th , the eggs stuck together. +I think I'll have to get a new pan. +It's supposed to be non-stick but it's not. +It's sticking. +It got a bit bent when I dropped it. +So your egg broke. +Tomatoes are cold. +Surely not! +Have they been in the fridge? +it's cold! +Mm? +It's not cold! +It seems so to me. +It's cold, mine is. +Pigeons are down. +Yeah. +About cleared what I've put out. +Well you'll have to go easy because you won't get any more until after the weekend! +What's ? +Did you have the news? +Mm mm. +I had a listen it's +Nothing new is there? +Well after that er still want that man who's supposed to have er, blown up Lockerbie. +The two men. +Mm? +Two was it? +Yeah. +And th they want them e extradited. +Well I'm going to make that marmalade and do a bit of cleaning. +Mm mm. +You can do your ship. +Well er . +Can't do the ship cos it wi , got to go on the bench in the garage. +I might do a bit of drawing. +Well, start a painting. +Mm. +Start a painting. +Did you find me that card? +Tha that Scottish card that you were looking for that painting? +Oh! +Well, say I come to think, I didn't. +You were looking for it last night. +Mm. +Perhaps I will now . +Especially on a sunny day. +Oh yeah! +But er +Well you missed three pigeon there. +Mm. +It's er four actually. +I wonder how long this cold spell +Within in the next couple of days at least! +So +A stop in day then I suppose? +Unless you want to walk to The Dove? +I'm not so bothered. +Are you not bothered? +Mm. +I thought you wanted a beer? +Well I wouldn't mind one but just have to walk +I haven't got any cans in. +just have to walk haven't you, in the cold and +Well, we'll see. +I'll go across for the paper, so we got all the +We've got the programmes! +I bought the +Oh you bought one did you? +You know I did! +I couldn't get this weeks' +Oh! +because it was Tuesday so I had to have next choose the following weeks'. +And when does that start? +Today! +Oh! +Unless you've thrown it away like you do other things! +I put it in the bookcase in +Mm. +in there. +On top of the books so that it didn't so unless you've moved it? +What are we having for lunch for Sunday lunch? +Pork chops today. +Mm. +If I'm busy we'll have it later. +Chicken tomorrow. +Don't you get tired of chicken? +No! +We've not had any since Christmas! +Mm. +And we had beef last week which wasn't very good. +Mm. +What did you attribute that to? +Change your butcher! +He might object. +Who might? +The butcher. +He didn't even know did he? +He would if you was having to pay on your usual +He knows I have chicken some weeks so Mop all that up. +Eat some bread. +The bread's stodge! +Not, not wholemeal bread's not. +Got to eat it. +Have you seen my honeycomb? +Oh aye! +Lovely! +Haven't opened the curtains! +I know. +That er new car next door it er +Not brand new! +it, well er +It's a Ford. +different then. +It seems longer than the one he had. +Don't think so. +I didn't think it was as big. +Mm. +Looks so to me. +They seem to use them a lot, buses, don't they? +Mm. +That's one thing, this weather'll keep the skateboarders at bay wouldn't it? +I'm not so sure if it's sunny. +How parents can spend all that money for them to run down on the chest paddling with their hands on the dirty pavement! +And then they have to carry them all the way back up the hill! +Seems pointless to me! +I were making models when I were their age. +Mm. +I don't suppose they wash when they go in do they? +Course they do! +No. +More than when you were a kid I expect! +Teachers used to look at our hands. +You have to turn them, see and look +I know. +says turn the palm of your hands +Yes! +I know! +and inspects it if you've washed them. +I mean mo most kids have two showers a day these days! +Well th , we used to fool them though we had, we had celluloid collars we used to spit on and then rub your sleeve to and er you know your boots, you had black boots? +Oh yeah! +And rub on the back of your sock! +We used to,ru on the back of your , back of your socks ! +I wonder if they do that now? +Course they don't, because they have trainers and they're always mucky! +I think they're horrible they are! +Well they look mucky in the shops! +And that's +Well no they don't, not originally. +Well they don't look like there's, the boots +Well they're damn clean! +Now, nip all that up and eat it. +They don't look like the boot and shoes we used to swe , wear. +I know that! +Eat all that up. +All that +It's in +bread. +And don't save it for the birds. +It's indelicate to , indelicate to mop your plate with a piece of bread, you know that! +It's not. +French do it all the time! +Well we're not French. +Ah! +You want to eat more bread you do! +What's it supposed to do for you? +Well fibre. +Keep you in good health. +Your cooking does that. +Mm! +Flatterer! +Was your father a good eater? +No. +For breakfast? +I don't think he e , he eat much breakfast. +He used to cook ours. +But, I don't ever remember seeing him sit down to have any. +Yes. +You used to see my my father's eyes sparkle when he had his first pint of the day! +Ha! +Mm? +What? +Er, another cup of tea? +Yes please. +Eat your marmalade. +Ah,yo you've got to wait for your cup of tea erm, they've sort of gone a bit cold. +Do you want marmalade? +Do you want +Want any whisky in your tea? +Yes please. +Do you want marmalade? +Yes I do, a little bit. +Just on this little bit of bread. +You want some whisky in did +Mm. +you say? +Oh you, I'd like butter on mine! +We as well as the marmalade! +Gives you cholesterol +No it doesn't! +Cholesterol is the word! +Trouble is you keep, I ta , wash your hands when you've had marmalade. +Well so what! +It's sticks +Sticky to, sticky hands up . +I had a be better night last night than I did the night before. +I never woke once. +I had a never heard a sound. +I did about two and then I went off again and erm +Oh. +later than usual wasn't it? +How do you know? +We do you want the windows doing th , today? +Where did you put the programmes? +In the bookcase, I told you! +On top of the books! +Well it's the same picture as last week's. +It isn't! +This front is basically the same oh, as we had er +It's not! +Yes! +But I +same one +bought it on Tuesday! +Oh. +Eat your toast! +You sa +You have a look, it's the date, look at the date! +Hasn't You told me to anyway it's Saturday Saturday. +All day! +Now what's on? +Anything any good? +Er +Where's your glasses? +Good question! +On there. +Good question! +Well you want to save your eyes. +No, there isn't any . +Er +Well they were there. +Mm mm. +Mm. +Here they are. +Henry the Fifth at two forty. +Here are. +Yes. +That should be good. +Ah! +Who's in it though? +Ooh! +The Lawrence Olivier +Lawrence Oliviers sh +one, that's a good one +Patria , patriarchal adaptation of Shakespeare's play . +Mm. +And Kenneth +And that's supposed to be better than Kenneth Brannigan's +Kenneth Branagh. +Brannigan! +It's su it's supposed to be better than his. +Which he did last year. +Uplifting celebration of war time idealism . +Four sta , four ratings. +What's that? +Er,e Henry the Fifth. +Oh! +Doris Day. +By the Light of the Silvery Moon. +Oh that's a +That's on +light musical. +five past three till five. +We've seen that before. +Not bad! +But, just depends. +What time is Henry the Eighth, the Fifth? +That's er, two forty to, to five minutes to five. +Ooh a bit after that. +Finish about two then, I should think. +I don't want it too early because we're late with breakfast this morning. +And what's on tonight? +In case we're staying home. +Twelve o'clock, that's er +No. +Well look at the proper programmes, that's just giving the films! +For the week, yeah. +Look, look at the proper +Tuesday. +programme! +Monday! +Saturday! +Saturday. +I know but they're the films! +You want the proper +Mm. +programmes! +Well you could have fooled me! +Proper, proper +That's it! +programmes. +That's it. +Yes dear. +What's on Sky? +One moment. +One moment. +Channel Four back a bit no One, Two +Well it's probably over the page! +No bef , after! +Are they stuck together? +Your fingers have +Eight A M. +Well no! +Well that's +The La +gone darling! +Hitchcock's, Lady Vanishes. +I've seen that times +Oh. +It's more this afternoon and tonight, I shall +Yeah. +be busy this morning. +Anything? +I'll see what I ca +That you like? +fancy. +What about me? +Oh well, shall I read them all? +No! +No! +Oh! +Read what's on this afternoon. +And I can te , I can tell whether I might like it. +Twelve fifteen, Love Happy, Groucho Marks. +No, I don't like him. +Two fifteen, Striker Malibu Detective. +Detective , no I don't want that. +Burt Reynolds. +Mm. +Four fifteen, Our Sons mothers of a gay couple. +Ooh! +I don't want that! +Six fifteen, Frankenstein, Boris Karloff . +Don't want that. +Er that's . +What's on the other movie channel. +Sky satellite. +No, Sky One there's nothing it's mostly wrestling Saturday afternoons. +What +Si +does ska , the +six P M,Rob er, Robin of Sherwood. +No! +No! +That's a silly thing! +Drink your tea that's on there. +Let me look. +Mm,no , haven't got +Oh that's twelve . +Do they know? +Yes. +That's Sunday you're looking at! +Well cos there was nothing on Saturday! +Oh you were looking in, on Sunday in advance. +They're cleaning all the seed up, the pigeons. +Yes, well they better! +They won't , don't usually do that. +It is biggest come down. +As big as a big cockerel ain't they? +Yeah. +It's big! +Do you reckon he fathers them all? +They wouldn't be all his wives would they? +I don't know! +I know nothing about pigeons! +Well you don't +Oh, Esther Rantzen's on Saturday now. +You know, That's Life. +I get a bit fed up with that. +You might, you might not know about pigeons, you know what comes naturally don't you? +Mm. +Eat all those. +If there's eight, er pigeons with him it's and he's the only er . +There's th that cello Tortellio. +I like him. +What's that about? +Er, he's a famous cellist! +Oh. +Oh that one he +He had cello, you know the +he used to be in the Masterclass teaching the +Well I think he did, sometimes. +students? +Yes. +Mm. +I'll have another cup then if it's spare? +Mm. +right. +You're not going out this morning are you? +Well +Did you want the windows cleaning? +As I say, it looks a nice day if you were wrapped up you could later on, go a little walk. +Did you want the windows done? +Would they +No. +might freeze. +No you don't want to ooh! +I'm +Erm +not sure if I put sugar in. +See. +it might freeze under there. +See. +Whoosh! +Oh! +Do you know what's on the +Here , there's two biggies now! +Well there were three yesterday! +I think the other one might be, oh yeah, it's the to the . +Well Dirk Bogarde's on at nine. +What's th , what's th that? +Well he just talks about his career. +Oh bi , it's not that er po Breaking the Code, that's the one +No. +I want to see. +Oh, that's the one you want to see. +Well what's that, Cicero? +No, he he he he he has to break a code, you know, like +Oh! +he broke the er +Mm. +Japanese code, it's he has +Mm mm. +a office with a lot of girls. +Hi , his film is King and Country, World War One. +Oh. +About a deserter at a court marshall. +I think we saw that the other week! +On Sky. +Possibly. +Possibly. +Anyway, it's on till eleven forty, a bit late. +We've seen most of them. +Well it's a bit late. +Oh! +Cilla's on, Blind Date. +I'm getting a little tired of that. +Oh it's some, bit of fun sometimes. +What's all this? +What's that? +Ooh that's a for the stylus int it? +It's off the er, yeah it's off the old music box we used to have. +Where did you find that? +Well it's off the old gramo we used to have. +I know, but I'm just wondering how it's got on there. +Probably when we were emptying the , bits and pieces. +Mm. +Has the robin been this morning? +Didn't see them. +Saw the two blackbirds and the thrush. +The thrush er lowered his wings in er you know, you know +Temper. +how they do when th they're trying to scare some of them off. +Drink your tea then. +Thrush, they're not fighters but they're, they're, not cowards they'll you know, have a go. +Who, the thrushes? +I've never seen them. +They do, he lowers his wings and crouches. +You know, it's the er attacker. +They've eat all that seed you you're going to run out before we get another +Well +lot. +At least they'll die happy won't they? +I don't know ! +Well they had er, they had all that this morning, they should go for a little while. +What are you going to do about that conifer? +Are you going to take that er clothes line +Line down +and chop them down now. +Ye , oh yeah, show me where you want the line will you? +I shall probably want the line fitted like this on Monday. +Well it held the conifer didn't it? +Mm. +Kept it from +Well I'll get another one when I'm in town. +What, another conifer? +No! +Another line! +Oh! +So that if it goes again I can get a cheap one then you can use a cheap one to tie it to the fence. +Yeah. +Expedite the tying up businesses. +Yeah. +Well I mean it might blow when, when I've got washing on the line or +That's unusual! +or still be on it when I, when +Un +I want it. +What? +Unusual , two pa , pigeons! +No, there were three yesterday! +Those big ones. +I mean close together. +Why? +Well don't they usually attack? +I don't know. +At least er imitation attack. +Mm, there's plenty of feathers about the garden. +Yeah. +I reckon it probably keeps the cats in. +What this weather? +Do you thi , I don't think it does! +Well they don't like stepping across icy grass I should have thought. +Mm. +Do you want any more tea, is that enough? +I went and looked in the dustbin to see if he was back in there but . +You can't lift it! +Couldn't shift it, no. +Is the di , is the light still on on +Mm. +the outside? +Oh yeah. +And your onions are there under the light. +Ooh! +I don't want them there! +Why? +Well you want to keep them cool. +Well do , well they're on the floor. +Oh! +Well put them in one of those cartons. +What about the potatoes? +Well there's not many left. +Oh well, they'll be alright. +That's what I say, we've go , we've got to go first time out next week +Mm. +ge go to the farm and get a bag. +Well I'm not going out when the salts on! +I know! +I know, keep the car +Well it's not that, I've gotta +for posterity! +I've gotta wash it off haven't I? +These? +Yeah. +The er have you seen that er card I'm going to paint? +No I haven't! +You found it once and now +You told me to put it in the safe place. +Yes , I did! +Well it's that safe we can't find it! +Well you better have another good look then! +Have you looked under the stairs? +I've looked everywhere! +About where it is. +Well where's that ? +That's what we've got to find out! +Well, you better start again systematically! +Well, I've been systematic. +No you haven't! +I've emptied the drawers, I've looked under the +You've not looked under the stairs! +You've not looked in the bookcase! +Well that's boot polish , I wouldn't put it +It's not! +You er there's a lot of painting under there. +I wouldn't put it there! +Yes you would! +You've been interfering haven't you? +That's it! +No I haven't me +Yes you have! +Now moved some of these records and, you might find it +there if you clear up a bit! +Your interfering again! +I'm not! +Well these records that want taping. +Well, put those in a, different place from those you've already done. +And keep all your things to paint in a separate +Well I better next +box or something. +get my drawing board for starters, I suppose. +And er +Well +have you got any shopping to +couldn't you move some there you +do? +Not really. +No. +Well I'll start then. +Well you don't want to go out in the car so stop and do a bit of painting. +Painting. +Okay. +What did you want to show me? +But you know your +Leave my don't destroy that carbon it costs a pound for a +Oh. +few sheets! +I know, but I found some screwed up, in the garage! +Yeah. +Well you +, I thought you'd started a book to put those, all these paper cuttings? +I did and then I took them out. +That's my +Why did you take them out? +reading from the er Victory that. +Mm. +You'll have to do all that +Just found that +when you get a minute. +So . +Now, look you'll lose this again! +Put it safe! +Have you read that from the Merry Widow? +Yeah. +Yes you have. +Oh. +Oh golly! +And how many years +Taking the +ago is that ? +taking the . +Is this what you found when you were looking for that card? +For that , yes. +There's the er, Constable's Bluebell Wood I painted. +Mm. +There's Choiss +Who's that? +Choiss and +Oh! +Archadians! +They do, er +I pu , I thought you got these in those +Yeah I er +scrap book? +Well as I say, I'm going to put it in the big one once a year. +Christ! +It's gone. +There was a write up in the newspaper I found, I must have put it back. +Well are they some of those snaps? +Yes, I know but +No but keep them all separate! +I me , well you can never find anything if you got them all over the place! +Ah this is it! +Taffy goes back with Petra . +Just read it out. +No! +I will. +I can't read that little bit. +One of the last jobs of Leicester serviceman Taffy he retires shortly has involved working on a machine of the type he first handled fifty years ago when he joined the B U. +The machine, an original Boston Tacker from the early nineteen hundreds was prepared by Taffy for showing at the exhibition this month at Wellingborough branch. +The organizers of the exhibition wanted a Boston Tacker to stand in the foyer to tie in with the theme of the seventy fifth anniversary of the B U locating however, locating the complete model has proved something of a headache like the Model T Ford, the Boston Tacker was always very common but is now something of a rarity and the branch had finally settled for head to be borrowed from C and J Clarke, shoe machi , museum in Street, Somerset. +Luckily, Taffy returning from his annual holiday remembered that there was a complete Tacker in the factory of a local manufacturer still being operated. +The directors of the firm kindly gave B U permission to borrow a Tacker for the exhibition and after Le Leicester branch arranged a temporary replacement, Taffy began working, cleaning up the machine to showroom condition. +Taffy spent five days cleaning, polishing, painting he copied the motives which were missing from and old nineteen hundred and eight B U machinery catalogue which he examined with a watchmaker's glass. +Taffy spent the majority of his time at B U as a serviceman at Risden and Leicester branches, but had an eighteen month period during world war two assembling jet engines at Powerjets, Wexton His wife and he lives in Spencefield area of Leicester . +Good! +I'd forgotten all about that. +Anyway, I couldn't read that with my eyes! +Oh, about this other. +What? +B U chooses +Yes. +Oh I know +Well +read that, I can read that. +I've got to make this marmalade now. +B U choose the Merry Widow because their last show White Horse was so successful the B U Musical Society have decided to take on the ambitious task of tackling the Merry Widow for their next production. +Leading the cast will be Mary +I can't +who had played many leading roles for the Leicester Operatic Society. +Frank who had a been a member of this society for more than twenty six years. +The White Horse was our most sec successful show to date says Mr Percy secretary to the group. +Mm. +Arthur, I can't und do the top of the wheelie bin it's still frozen. +Well that's alright. +I know! +But I've got +Leave it. +my other rubbish to +Oh. +put in, it's full!. +Well I I I did try see if the cat was in it but it was frozen. +I shall have to er, thaw it out. +What's all this? +Well something I've picked up. +No, I meant that? +Leicester United Athletic Club are producing but once a year in the si , in the club's theatre, here are two scenes . +What's that? +There's the Quaker girl. +What year was that? +The Quaker girl? +Don't say it though. +It should say the year! +Nineteen sixty two. +Oh God! +That's going back a bit innit? +Thirty years! +Mm. +I've been busy in my day ain't I? +Mm. +Yeah well you want to keep them to , in one place not +Mm. +have to go through looking through them every time you want something. +I do exactly as you say! +I'm under +Mhm. +orders! +That's it. +Is it going round ? +That's it . +Is it going round ? +No. +Is it? +It's stopping. +Now my arm's nearly better I still can't get my wedding ring on. +And yet it +So +don't look all that swollen does it? +Well do you want me to do it? +I've got the +No. +No. +The wedding ring wasn't cut off, it was only the engagement ring and we've sold that. +No. +Yeah. +I mean it don't look all that swollen does it? +No. +And yet, it won't +Well your +go on. +knuckles protruding there. +Not on the next one. +That one is that one's swollen +Well I know , but that +Yeah. +but it won't go over my knuckle. +Mind you , you've got it bound yo you're sort of restricting the blood aren't you? +No, not now! +So I think you'll have to buy me a new one. +Oh well that can't er +How's that coming? +What are these, all the shows? +That's er +All the films from +That's the erm +Archadian. +Bluebells +Bluebell Wood. +Bluebell Wood. +Copy. +And that's +And that's the er +Clock tower. +it's the er +Houses of Parliament. +Copy of . +Is that your hanky or mine? +Which? +They're what +One of those. +what I'm rubbing these down with. +Ah! +Oh this is mine. +Frost's not going is it? +No. +Jackie's just gone off now. +What, shopping do you think? +Or to the church. +Have +We +you got the glue or else +I meant to look out for her, show her the picture. +Oh well perhaps want to catch her when she comes back. +Haven't you got a brush? +Well I had a a worn out little paint brush and I rolled it on so I kept my hands dry. +Well you can fi , we got +But it's, it was on the Welsh dresser for a little while. +You've er disappeared it as you usually do! +Will you want this table clearing of all these +It was on that kitchen shelf for +Yeah, a long while +weeks! +yes. +Do you want all this table at all? +No, not yet, I've not put the chops in yet. +Oh. +What time shall we have dinner? +Are yo , you're not going out are you? +No, I won't bother. +Too cold? +Well I'm not worried about that but, I'm interested in this you know. +Okay. +Do you actually want to? +No I'm not fussy. +It's going. +Erm so you going to see Any Questions? +As you didn't see it last night, before I get +Yeah, just wanna watch +start getting the dinner? +What you mean before? +Yeah. +Oh. +Well it's on in er half an hour. +Well it weren't all that, but i if you want to we can try. +Well you didn't hear the beginning did you? +No. +You only saw heard a bit of it. +Shall we do that then? +Yeah. +I want that on first. +Oh. +And clear up. +Right. +Leave it on. +Leave it on ! +Erm +Oh. +so clear all them cuttings +Clear everything up. +cuttings and photographs up. +Do you want this one? +Anyway , you don't want +Do you want this one in and so +Well you could put it in. +It's a holiday +snap isn't it? +You know all the, the proprietors they ha , they have horses that pulled the co carriages they had a race. +I mean, it's a holiday snap so put that in. +They had a race, you know +You won't be getting up-to-date +th +anyway. +all the horses that pulled the coaches. +Yeah. +Well +Up the hill. +Now put everything straight +Up the hill. +so you know where it is. +Have you done with ma my scissors? +Yes. +Right. +Yes. +Nothing else is there? +To er +Oh no , just clear up. +clear up? +No? +Okay. +If they're coming in tonight. +There's something on the floor down there! +Yeah. +Stop it. +That's it. +Well what did you think to Any Questions? +Better this week wasn't it? +Yes. +There weren't so much bickering were there ? +No, but it was still like a political broadcast in a way +Broadcast, yeah. +from each party. +But the any answers was +Oh is this going? +the any answers was er quite good this week +Yeah. +I thought. +A bit the anti-smoking bit, on a bit too long. +Don't you think so? +Yes well, does Tom, your Tom have it? +I don't know, I'm not sure. +Well he don't smoke much. +No. +I in fact now, he doesn't smoke when Madge is in the room. +But I still think +He waits till she's gone to bed. +Mr Churchill had nine inch long cigars sent him at Christmas and +Really? +he was smoking like, and he were ninety odd! +Yeah. +Well they daren't sa , er +What, how do you com +Yes, well. +compare that with like with like? +Yes, but they used to say cigar smoking's not as bad as cigarette smoking. +Cigars +Cigars. +Oh. +Mm. +That's what they +I shall be up +that's what they say +There's there's more in this +and Tom only smokes a pipe now, he don't smoke cigarettes. +Yes, but there's mo more emission from a cigar in a car than a cigarette. +Well he just didn't smoke in cars. +Mm. +I don't know. +And do you remember we went to er David's er, one Sunday with me to his grave and when we come out of cemetery that public house across the road +Ah yeah! +That one. +I took you both in and, you couldn't see across the room! +No. +Well they hadn't got the fans on there. +No. +When I spoke about it th the barman rushed across and put the fans +Put the fans on, yeah. +But how do you reckon all those went? +Yeah. +You cou , it ju literally, you, you could hardly +Oh I know! +see the bar! +I know. +A and it was down steps as you went in. +Wasn't above the ground, it were sort a three feet below the ground. +Mm. +So there by hangs a tale. +Mm! +Mind you, you can make fors and agai , er fors and er against for most things can't you? +Course you can. +Over eating can do it can't it? +I mean, look at er, George Bush in America, he's tried to act like forty, as I've tried to do a , and you have to pay for it. +I mean, it's one thing running along the road before breakfast when you're twenty isn't it? +Well no! +Another thing you'd be e ,yo you have a, you eat more when you're old, or appear to. +No you don't. +I'm eating more than +You don't eat no you don't! +You don't eat nearly as much as you used to. +Oh! +Oh well. +Seems a lot when I have to go through +How? +with it. +I know, but, but you used to have mid-morning snack +Ah! +But I was nine years in er digs. +Yes, I'm not disagreeing. +And you don't get they don't overfeed you in digs. +Well, that was when you were young! +Cos the whole object of the exercise is to have a lodger is to pay yo your way. +Ah I know. +Well you needn't go into all that. +Well that's +I know but you +It's a known fact, we'd still do +you don't, you +Have you pressed that? +You are now recording, yes we're recording. +Recording. +Oh so that should be alright then +Yeah. +shouldn't it? +Have you mashed the tea? +Yes after all that +I is there anything else you want to fix? +No, after all that trouble changing the I don't know why it went +went wrong the first time do you? +Are the birds coming? +Yes. +They've ate all the seed and that bread's still there. +I'm making a cup of tea. +Has the robin been? +No +Is there some salt on is there? +Yeah. +Well he, he often is. +Did you hear that? +Yeah. +The robin was at the back door. +I've thrown another handful. +He's getting brave. +And the blackbird. +Do you want some whisky in your tea? +Er yes +You're not going out. +might as well. +Er is it +Is it still recording? +Yeah, no I dunno it's re going round. +I didn't know whether you'd put the, stopped it. +Mm mm +No you can leave it, might as well leave it on. +Yes. +Well it's funny it's working this time int it? +Well there's so many things to go wrong int there? +You've gotta watch it all. +Is there any, do they want any bread? +Or have you thrown it all? +I've thrown some out. +Mm. +They've got some. +Ah after all that trauma . +It's going to be a bad frost tonight. +I know, shall I put the gas fire on, as well? +No, I'm warm enough. +I'm not very warm. +It's getting dark isn't it? +I mean you did the same with that as you did with the other didn't you? +The only thing that was different is that, that it's not starting on the same +Well you get obsessed with that but you're comparing it with yours. +I was just sitting figuring it out. +You're comparing it with our +You know the ones you put in? +thing with our system. +Well no y she couldn't put the B side in cos she s you've got to put the A in. +Yes. +You put the A in. +The only way you can get it +A +right would be putting the B side in but you've gotta start with A. +It's rather curious that. +Well you, you always do on yours when you're recording on our er set don't you? +But you're obsessed with the position of the, the tape. +Well I compare like with like don't I? +What's this one in here, the d +Leave alone and I'll sort them out. +Well that's what I'm saying. +Well +Ah, there, that's it. +That's it. +Now do you want any cake with that second cup of tea? +Yes I'll have a slice. +There's not +Have you got much left? +Yeah there's half of it left. +Oh. +Yes but if you're not here you won't will you? +Well I shall be in a minute, I've only just got to go in the kitchen and get it. +No! +It won't matter for a minute or two. +On my daughter's wedding day ten thousand pounds I'll give away. +On second thoughts I think it best to put it back in the old oak chest . +How big ? +Normal. +Some folk sing opera, some folk sing jazz, some sing like sawing wood, I sing like that. +But when the dickie birds sing in the trees I think we ought to try and sing like these. +Well what's all that in aid of? +Let's all sing like the birds can sing +You needn't sing on it. +Shut up! +tweet tweet tweet, tweet tweet +And eat that cake. +Is it as good as mine or better? +come from there. +Yes Is this as good as mine or better? +This is Madge's cake. +Ooh I think I like yours the best, this is a bit heavy. +It's not heavy! +It looks like rain or snow. +I think it's too cold to snow. +That mark's gone off my arm, I think that erm bandage was too tight. +Well you'd better leave it off then for now. +Well I don't know, it's +Well if it's better for you I should. +I don't know that it is. +It gave me a bit of support but +Not much, I wouldn't have thought much, it's elastic. +I know but I should have thought by now it 'd 've been better. +Look in the doctors' book, it might tell you how long you have to suffer. +Well I think as you get older you take longer to heal. +If it's, if there's not any frost we could go to Sainsburys in the morning. +Mm. +And do some shopping. +A bit of shopping, yeah. +Unless we go on the bus. +Hmm don't be silly!big shopping on the bus. +Besides it doesn't even go in till about about every hour. +Do they go on a Sunday still? +Not very often. +Well I'm alright for everything till about Tuesday. +Mm. +How, you know the last time you saw the doctor, how long did he say you'd got before it completely +He didn't say. +Mm eat all that cake, you're not giving that to the birds. +Mm +They've not ate, ate half the potatoes and bread that's there now. +You're not supposed to speak with your mouth full. +Hmm. +There goes the marzipan, all on the floor. +You cost me a fortune in soap. +What are you giving that cake to the birds for? +I told you not to. +What are you giving that to the birds for? +Is this your handkerchief on the floor? +Is this your handkerchief on the floor here? +I think so, that's mine. +Mm. +Now finish that cake. +Any more tea? +Yeah, please. +You've had two. +Well I'll have three then won't I? +Well you're not having any more whisky in this. +Now it's going now. +Everything you say now records on there. +What I'm saying now is, is on there, all what I'm saying. +And do you know, I said to Evelyn blimey my voice, ain't it different, it sounds a awfully different to y her voice. +You say that, Audrey w er just bought a camcorder and she said I didn't realize what a, you know, Leicester accent I've got. +Who, who's that? +One of the girls at work. +Oh, mm. +She's got a real Leicester accent, you know? +Mm. +Whenever I answer the phone at work, every time I pick it up everybody knows it's me, you know, cos I'm the only Londoner in the office. +Yeah mm. +Yeah. +You feel the cold perhaps Jackie? +No I'm alright now I'm inside. +I've turned it down now. +Oh have you? +It does get a bit, it does get a bit hot. +Well the heating's hot enough but Arthur feels the cold. +int it? +Arthur feels the cold. +Does he? +Cos Tom doesn't, Beverley and I, ooh dear. +Well, well these are comfortable +Yeah, well I'm a bit like that, I can't wear a jumper because I, I and yet years ago I always used to wear +Yeah. +It certainly feels different now with central heating, that's +Mm +Jackie any of your grandchildren look like that? +Mm yeah, that's mother and me. +He's been doing that album. +Talk about I reckon that, er Evelyn's niece said er I said that's how they used to dress boys, I said ho she said why I said probably +Well er a picture of my dad, do you remember that, my dad, when he was er +Yeah. +very young, he was in a dress. +Mm. +Yes well that's how +But I said but that was about nineteen fourteen, nineteen fifteen. +Yes well that would be the same as Arthur because he was +I said +born nineteen O nine. +I said to him , well wh what are you wear he had a dress and long boots up to there. +I said +Yeah. +Well her daughter's got long boots on that hasn't she? +Yeah. +We've er, he's just been getting all the photos stuck down on those cards. +He's got years to do. +Do you keep one? +Oh yeah? +Well we, we've got erm +We've got a like a +Cellophane? +Yeah cellophane. +The hol the holiday photographs were gonna be sort of albums in a plastic thing but +Mm, mm. +but their own personal ones we've got them either in frames on the, on the sideboard or erm +Yes but the, the general ones we've got in those flip you know when I was off, when I had my cartilage removed in my knee, well I was off for six weeks so I got all the photographs and put them in order, the children and us, you know? +Mm. +It took me weeks to do it didn't it? +Sorting them out. +Mm well it took Ar it's taking Arthur because he's got oh sna shut that door Arthur cos Jackie +Jackie will be in a draught. +Shut it properly Arthur. +Oh, sorry. +Oh Tom's not brought his glasses. +Do you want the ? +Yes it's a bit draughty, to the neck I find. +You're getting, I can't go anywhere without my glasses. +I can't. +I went to the er er fourteens and er I was there quite a while and er I, I got a booklet in with all different nationalities and er it said Welsh, Taffy, you see, Taffy is Welsh, up here, is a Welsh name. +And er I was showing it to chap next to me, tall chap, he took a fatherly interest in showing me how to work you know when foreman was out and er ooh he said there's a bloody Taffy. +Well fo a at sixteen I went into the department that built the machines and er I was, I think it was bell was going for lunchtime and a lad come by says hello Taffy how you going on in here? +So that department got it. +And then er +Everybody did it. +er I we I think somebody were crossing the weren't they? +When we were first married and coming across there then he says blimey Taffy what you doing up here? +And n now everybody's got it . +And that's why I put that in. +What do you make of that Tom? +What was that? +No the bit about the machine . +Yeah I saw that, yeah, mm, yeah. +What's that, your retirement thing? +No when they +Oh. +wanted, they wanted a machine for an exhibition +Oh aye that one, yeah. +and er I spent a week nearly doing it up. +We, we've still got piles of photographs haven't we, do you take many? +Ooh well there's quite a few, yeah. +Not, well, when the children were born, the grandchildren, we started to take a lot more but we don't take quite as many now. +No. +Sometimes on holidays, you know? +Mm. +Have you booked this year's? +Yes, we're going to Crete. +Oh, that's another Greek island isn't it? +Yeah. +Where did you go last time? +Where did you go? +Oh yes. +Mm. +The smaller, one of the smaller islands. +You've booked it have you? +Yeah. +Ooh. +I'm looking for the German U boats, when er that's the beginning of the German U boat +U boat pens. +Evelyn took some of these with her little camera and it weren't very good. +That's er the mystery one Ian took. +But I took some better ones. +Shows you what they was up to, aye that's it. +Tom won't be interested in that. +Look at that then Tom. +That's what we was up against. +Great big deep submarine pens +And that's only one that's only one part of it. +you know in er near La Rochelle. +No wonder we didn't bomb them. +They were s +No they're very very heavily fortified aren't they? +Mm. +Look. +he wouldn't know that. +they had three or four lots. +Would you like a drop more sherry? +No I'm fine. +Ooh you've not drunk that yet. +Have you seen the satellites erm y you know, our satellite places? +You know, down in Land's End? +Oh those, no, no. +Satellite dishes, we went t when we went to Falmouth they took us on a trip there, it was interesting. +I think that's a bad +Is it on the downs? +that's a bad one +Er yes, that's it, erm +Is it Goonhilly Downs +Yes Goonhilly Down +Ah yeah. +And that's one, that's one Evelyn took and she got the light in but that's it look. +Gosh. +And th they're marvellous things. +They're huge aren't they, really? +Mm. +And there's not many men working on them, you know, it's all sort of great big massive dials and er +Ooh. +How many how many of these dishes are there? +Ooh quite six, all around a big field. +Oh about six. +Six of them all all round this great big field. +So w were they all pointing +Cornwall. +in different directions or? +Mm. +Yeah. +There you are there they are i in all directions look. +That's only a bit of them. +I think I took some of those, I've only got a +And that's, that's the fence +well +round round where +when, when Arthur bought his camera I said to the man er do you think I'll be able to use it ? +And he said +he said well so he said I'll give you this one. +Lit it's a little Russian one. +But it, it's not go not got any gadgets on. +It's pictures. +But they've got a picture of sunlight, cloud and all things like that. +But it doesn't take some bad pictures really. +No +No, no. +I mean I do I can't +What do you think to the submarines Tom? +They say it was only a part of it, you know, because we only had half an hour, didn't we, there and then +No we had about an hour or so. +Well not too long anyway. +I recommend these bus things though, abroad, they were lovely weren't they? +Well you fly and +What was that, that with the boats in the in the river? +That's Thames isn't it? +Int that the Eiffel Tower? +This is, er yeah it's the Eiffel Tower, not the Thames, the Seine. +Yes Eiffel Tower. +Not the Th er S yes, the, yes +I, I saw that and I thought +Yeah it's the Eiffel Tower we went on that boat. +Mm. +That's what, oh no we were on a boat and we took that, but it was a similar boat to what we went on. +Oh yes it is the, the column of the Eiffel Tower is hidden by those buildings isn't it? +It's just +Yes. +behind it, it looks as though +No we took we took er that was, that's a lovely trip if you go to Paris. +I'd like to go but Tom's not that interested. +Well we only, on the way down +yes. +on the way down, and it was a lovely Sunday morning and er, you know, it was +Yeah. +well one of the girls said to me who sort of tagged on to us, she was on her own,er she said er what was the highlight of the holiday and she said that trip down the Seine +Yeah. +and the Sunday morning sort of all round Paris and all that. +doing a trip, you know, a two day trip +Mm. +you know trouble is it's, it's either May weekend or it's I can't get the time off +Yeah there'd be a lot there then. +but you know I'd like to go, you know, say a couple of days. +What about your Yugoslavia? +Well I know I went four years running +Yeah. +It's, it was, it was er er sheer coincidence that Beverley had been to Crete the year before and I said to Jackie we've been to Yugoslavia four years, do you want, do you want a change or do you wanna go back to Yugoslavia, she said well I'll, I'll have a look, I said how about, how about going to the Greek islands for a change +Yeah. +she said alright, and we changed and Yugoslavia came out like that. +Yes and you 'd 've had to have cancelled anyway wouldn't you? +One of our friends that we'd met were there, they'd been there a couple of weeks +And they had to come back. +a week before the July fortnight and they had to come back. +I always wanted to go but when Tito died I said to Arthur ooh it might be a bit risky. +And then it got that it blew over didn't it? +Mm. +Yeah. +And so w +Well I mean when we to go I mean the tourism and they were just +we've never been. +beginning to bring them up, you know +Yes. +give them a better style whatever, yeah. +Well someone gave me a lovely address in erm mm +But they made us so welcome, the tourists, you know they were fantastic. +Mm. +Well I know everybody er I've spoken to really thought +Yeah. +and it w wasn't too expensive originally was it? +No it wasn't. +No, no it was cheap i i i it was er when we first went +It was getting expensive. +Yeah. +it was a lot cheaper than here and when we last went it wasn't quite as er as cheap there as it was h it, it was always cheaper than here but not quite such good value was it? +Mm. +No. +No. +It was still very good +Have you lost your headache from this morning? +Sorry? +Jackie er er said you'd got a headache this morning, has it gone? +Oh yeah. +all got it at work, it's being in an office. +Have they got flu? +When one gets it everybody gets it. +Mm. +There's, there's several had the flu and there's three of them next to me with a headache yesterday. +They all we +Mm. +were quite pale and I thought here we go it's me next . +And er +What about Bush then? +He, he passed out didn't he? +Collapsed +Yeah. +that was terrible. +But I just remember +But mind you he's a bit he's a bit silly, looking back at myself er er three year, or was it two year back, or one? +You know I, I've got a big laurel and it was coming right over what we call the roundabout so I decided to have a go at it. +Well I got some foot long pruners but the branches were hitting our thing and I were doing this and, you know, and now I've got +And that's what's shoulder. +a frozen shoulder in each, when I go like that in bed, ooh it's terrible. +And er I thought I can do what I did at forty, and I did it, but look what I've got now. +Yeah. +Mm. +And that, getting back to Bush, he's doing the same thing isn't it? +He's been jogging, he's doing some footballing +Well it's the pr the pr the pressure, the pressure on him to be +Take that picture from the it's come off that hook. +Yeah it's handy to put up +Well my, I rang my sister, said are +That's a really good picture that. +you coming round tomorrow afternoon? +Tom . +It's a bit odd isn't it, to say the least. +because it's her er daughter's birthday and I usually give a present to take round . +Ooh she said er I've got a bad cough. +It seems unusual. +It, it w it would have been nice to have asked him, you know, how come they took it? +What was the reason for it. +Is that the one that was poorly over Christmas? +Yeah. +Because it's not very high up. +No that was young sister. +No it can't be can it? +No, no. +It's not very high up at all. +Unless he's got a er +Mm. +er er +Well I was out there watering at time scares was on and I had this letter and planes did come over and I laid me ho hosepipe down, I mean you know so he wouldn't be able +Well planes are always coming over cos there's an airport just over there, that's right,airport. +It's the aerodrome yeah. +Yes but why did he say why's my grass greener than everybody else's? +Yeah well that was just a comment, silly. +Ah I don't know. +I don't think they could say anything, as I say there was no hosepipe ban then anyway so +You say just a comment comment, what about that letter we had ? +Yeah well +It seems to be a pain in the neck me cleaning the sometimes there's a lot of dog dirt, on yours as well as mine, and I, I and they were quite er happy to do that, yet it seems to irritate somebody over there. +Still. +What about Mrs ? +Nice isn't it? +Breaking her ankle. +Put those +Put them on the floor Jackie. +How is Mrs ? +I've not heard. +She came across for the first time today, I was out egg yard getting some eggs +Mm? +and she poddled over, she said she'd been across to Fernbury Lodge for the first time +Oh +yesterday. +mm +Cos I thought she m I said have you been to the shop, thinking, I meant up here +Mm. +and she said no she'd been to pay her poll tax over there, she said she'd had a rest in one of the shops over there on the way +Mm +back, so +She's doing alright. +I didn't think they were like that, did you, these satellites? +Oh! +You know. +Ah these, I thought they were yeah I was trying to think. +I think, they, they're quite large aren't they? +Mm. +I, I've not been near one, I wouldn't know but you have to stand next to them to get an effect, to kn know how big they are. +to get the er how big they are yeah. +That's right. +Mm. +And it showed you all the sort of countries of the world, you know, on lights and, and that, and which light was for which wh when they took us round the er +Oh that was interesting. +control room you know. +Well yes you, you know the De Mont the stage and the organ and all that? +It looked just like that +Mind that glass! +er and the man was sitting there at a looked like a lot of +A telephone +looked like a great big piano, you know, with like the buttons and he were doing this and they've got every country within range on the wa on whatever it was, wall or a gantry, and if that wasn't too, too good he, he were doing something and it come up. +And, and, and all, he'd got all countries' television er going, you know, so you could look at any country at the moment, the moment it was producing. +Mm. +I thought it were wonderful. +Aye. +It's er marvellous. +When we were kids we'd never of dreamt of this would we? +Oh no. +Yet the kids all seem to er adapt to it just like that. +Yeah. +Very very +And the, the son-in-law's got a, a computer hasn't he? +And his +Mm. +the little one, she's only four, +Mm. +and er D er er Dave was showing me how it works and he went out and the little one was saying I'll do it for you granddad, look this is how you do it, and she starts typing away, and she's four! +Four! +Just, you've gotta go on that, and she presses it and the chart thing which is press that one and it'll get rid of it all. +Doing and it all disappeared. +And I thought ooh f you know, we were +I know my, my sister's er grandson, he's had a computer, he's fourteen and er anyway, oh he wanted a bigger one costing about eight hundred pounds. +And now he's, they've got one and I think it was about five hundred pounds, they bought this one s but they managed to sell the other one for about a hundred and fifty they say. +Mm. +Now he's got that, he says he wants a wordprocessor. +Mm. +Mm. +And they're expensive aren't they? +Er yes they are. +Ooh he, he's m mind you he, he reckons that's what he wants to do when he's older but I mean the life, or the career of anybody in computers is not very long is it? +Because they're changing so rapidly. +Yes, yeah. +I mean my, one of my friend's sons, he was a computer man, he was working on his own but he's in his I should think he's getting on for about forty six and he was doing freelance but this recession the people who er the firms who were employing him are using their own staff and they're not calling on him now and er he's not done any computing for twelve months. +Mm mm. +The building n next to us, where we are, you know do you, on +Mm. +Street? +There's a big glass building next to us, have you seen it, it's +Mm. +quite huge? +And that was all, that was all computers, all computers. +Yes we kept going there when yeah. +Th th that's going now +Yeah. +because somewhere er headquarters, they're going to do the work for all the region, so therefore they've gotta go +They're, yeah. +So all those computer people are out +Yeah. +and you think Christ what's +Well erm I mean Andrew, he was very clever, he went to university and as I say now he's nearly fif getting, getting towards fifty well even so he's buying a house and last December things got so bad he took a job as a dustman a at Anstey, he lives +Yeah. +at Anstey, and he said well, got to pay the mortgage. +Yeah. +Mm, that's right. +I mean, I could be er mm maybe they're going to give us numbers on the seventeenth how many +What as to +how many people they're gonna keep or not gonna keep so +Oh +we don't know who's gonna go or what, you know, it's quite worrying really but er +Oh it is really isn't it? +Well you see he thought the Gas Board was here forever you know? +Well you do don't you? +But +Well since they've gone private +And especially these computers where they change every +Mm. +every few years don't they? +It's, it's er +they employed +Yes +they employed six thousand people and when the came they all went to Law Street adjacent to the factory so they could walk across to the job and er look at it now, they've smashed it all down, it's gonna be an Asian big store. +It's all been levelled now and taken away and they employed +No they're not, it's supposed to be being used +six thousand people. +I don't know whether you go down Valmer Road do you? +Not very often no. +I went, I went there about two years ago to Walkers Crisps and, that's just next door to er . +I went by but yeah a lot of it's all down, there's still, still a part being kept though isn't there? +Mm. +Oh they've still got a small part there. +Ah that's, that's the American section. +That's right. +Mm. +American United. +That's the +We w we was partnerships you see well when our place collapsed they carried on just carried on a bit because they were connected with Japan. +In fact er just before I retired they were saying, you know, my job's obsolete and that, and then and says oh we're opening up a big depot in Japan. +So you see it's gone there you see. +So you just retired in retired just about the right time. +Mm. +you know, it's gonna be difficult to get another job now, so +You're in the drawing office? +Yeah. +Cos I've been silly in the past, I've told Evelyn lots of times and we had a new machine, a rapid na nailer, it er nailed er army sho er soles onto the at five hun it used to do three hundred and fifty nails a minute and we m made one just for I er went out on the road, er to five hundred a minute you see, and er we were building the first half a dozen and er er there's two pawls at the back of the machine +Ooh we don't want to know. +Ah but th th th there's a rack and w one goes on and holds the horn post up to the boot while it's driven, then it comes out and there's two, one's half a tooth, so it ensures one or the other's in, and they work like that. +So I was spinning the cam round, it hadn't got pinned to the shaft, just spinning it round on the shaft and these pawls were doing this and Les , the top one, he went to Kettering and then Don, the next top one, he went to er +We don't want to know all this. +r er Northampton and then finally I went to Rushden, and er this top one,, and his mate come out of the toilet, been for a smoke, and er walking by I said hey Les, look at this, and I spun the cam round and it went bang and stopped dead. +He said well you've got no bloody springs on the pawls, I says so I picked a tin of springs up, we kept it for anybody who wanted a spring for their bike, any spring where, you know the hooks on each end? +Mm. +Well they broke off in wear and when you was overhauling a machine you'd throw these springs in the tin in case you ever wanted one. +And he said er oh he says er er there's no, your spring's broke. +I s so I showed him this tin full, I says well look they do break don't they? +Anyway, do you know the easiest, er and at that time five pound were five pound, if I 'd 've gone to the foreman and then the er +Drawing office. +drawing office, I 'd 've got five pound on a suggestion. +Anyway in the fullness of time er went to er +You said that. +near Kettering, Don went to er Northampton and then finally I went to Rushden and er I'd been there about a year and all of a sudden there was a call in for Shorteners at so I went down on the bike and er what er the one over me who, who was elderly, well wasn't over me but he was er he was on my job but the senior man on it he come in, the boss had sent him in to have a look cos the er Shorteners were complaining, and er then they rang up for one of us, he said well I'm not leaving till I've solved this problem so I had to go. +But er all he did was, you know the two pawls that go in and out? +He made a bit of eight inch wire, like er a U piece, and the bar at, bottom bar of the U held the tail so if the springs broke the tails didn't duck under and smash the cam. +It'd smashed the cam and, and the lever and bent the shaft colossal expense at that time. +Mm expensive +Now him and his mate says ooh er you, your spring's broke. +Now I were bloody daft, If I 'd 've gone to the foreman and wanted to put a suggestion in, I, I, I 'd 've beat sure they were crowing abou when he got but I was first really wasn't I? +Mm. +I, I'd seen it before it happened +Mm. +you see, and three more went like that eventually but er he got the dough and that was it. +That was it, mm. +And Evelyn always says I'm too diffident to push my plate up and +Well, he used to come home and say that and I'd say put a suggestion in but +Mm. +Mm. +if he did I had to write to out for him . +Mm. +Still we didn't do too badly. +Anyway how long have you got to go before you retire? +Ooh eleven years officially. +Ooh. +if it was up to me I'm +Mm. +gonna go in nine. +I shall go at sixty three at the latest, I'm not going on to sixty five +Not staying longer. +and it might end up +No, no. +There's certain rumours that there's no +Still you might get a a big redundancy pay out if you do. +Well talking about a year's salary +Is that +You get a pension of course but it depends how many years +Yes you get a pension. +you've been there and I've only been there thirteen years so +Oh. +that's not +Not as good. +they said about a quarter of my salary didn't they? +Mind you how many years were you in your pension? +Not all that many. +From the beginning weren't it? +No you weren't +No? +the B U didn't have a pension scheme till after the war. +No, no. +But talking about pensions i +Do you get a pension in yours? +Only my own what I put in, no. +I've been paying a full stamp since nineteen seventy four. +Yes, it's a good idea isn't it? +Yeah. +The sad thing is +Well my friend never paid +Tal talking about pensions Tom, the chap er cha with the office girls and that and, and checking our expense sheets, he, he er they put a notice on the board you could ante your what, in your pension, you could a put a bit more into it and I were looking at notice and he says ooh he says it's no good for you, he says er w well I told you about it didn't I? +Yes. +And I said ooh +He said ooh he says you won't get no more if you retire. +So I mentioned it to Evelyn and, being an office-wallah, you know, and any, any e extra money she were all there, she worked it out says ooh that, it were another ten bob a week you see, well we've been +Which was a lot in those days. +Mm. +Well you had a rise as well. +we've been glad we've been glad now haven't we er +So he anted his up. +I mean ten shillings was a we a we was +Mm, quite a lot, yeah. +years ago. +Yes but we're glad now . +Oh yes because now mind you the B U pension's quite good because every year we, we get a p a percentage increase +Mm. +Mm. +but I mean ours doesn't, mine doesn't, I mean mine's only a small one because I haven't done many years there. +Ours goes cost of living it says. +But er, oh that's alright if it does but the B U is, is, you know, a really good one. +Mm. +But you've got to get some years in to get a really good pension, but I've got thirteen and the maximum you can get is forty years but you get, then get two thirds of the salary you would have got, +Mm. +your own salary, so that's pretty good for a pension isn't it? +You know. +Still perhaps you get the earnings thing don't you? +Earnings related as well sort of thing. +That's being stopped though +Has it? +It's gonna be in the year two thousand they're gonna wipe it out. +Oh, oh +So that's it. +Oh dear I'm not au fait with those things now. +No well this is why w you know like my girls have got just to take their own now. +Take their own private ones see, +Yeah. +Yeah my nieces are doing that, Audrey and er well her husband's self employed so er +See all the firms I've been to up till the Gas Board just gave you your money back for your pension. +Yes they did. +If they could have said to you would you keep it and, or transfer it t I would've said yes please. +Well they can do now, in those days they didn't. +But they, they could but they they didn't in my day, they just +No. +gave it to you back and you got no choice in the matter, that was it. +No they didn't, no, we didn't in our place. +So that was a shame really as far as I'm concerned. +Do you reckon the er +Mm. +Although Peter my friend's he, he did that but er it didn't come to much, they 'd 've saved it or something, one job, cos he was made redundant about three times and er one, one place he was at they're supposed to have kept it and paying him it now but I don't know how they came about that bu because actually they we played him a dirty trick, they persuaded him to leave his job and then about nine years or probably less than that later you know and he was out again, redundant and, you know, I think they felt a bit guilty but he only gets about five pounds a week from, off that one, which is +Nothing is it? +No. +Er er do you reckon we ought to have had, you kn you know we went over to gas, I toyed with the idea of fetching that do you know, you know when this house were built we went looking at a depot where they've got all these grates and I took th funnily enough I took the measurements of the breast and er the only one we found was just that dead on look, right across +Is that recorder still on? +Oh yeah +Oh ye yes, yes it's still going. +Oh that's alright, finish one tape. +Tape and +Mm. +well we shan't finish that lot shall we at this rate ? +Well if you, if you finish three we're +You can't very well go in a pub can you ? +No not really. +You've not seen Jackie's new lounge +I er +have you? +No. +It's beautiful int it? +Well it will be when it's finished, the curtains are +Have you finished? +Well they came and fetched the curtains on Thursday, they've got to go back. +Why, what's the matter with those? +Not level, the dining room one was two inches shorter one side than the other, the tie-backs +Really? +were all creased, and the lounge +Ooh +is like this! +They weren't level at all. +They came back +Ooh! +back and they were disgusted so they've taken them down and gonna make me a complete new set. +Oh, oh I didn't know that, mm. +Yeah. +And he suggested tie-back is, cos it's, the pink is the thinner material, they're gonna pipe it instead of what they've tried. +Oh the machining was dreadful. +Mm. +Who, who was who was the +Well Maples, they contract out to this +Ooh! +workshop +Oh I see, Maples. +But +Cos they should be good there shouldn't they? +Well this is it, the man was disgusted, he said oh dear. +Yeah. +They are very good though, they come when they say and they, they d they do something about it +Oh they've been very good, oh yeah. +Mm. +Yes. +they don't just leave it, they'll go and do it, you know? +They've very good +Mm. +Cos we had Linekars, course they've gone out of business, but when he came, when the boss came to this one he reckoned one of these was a bit out didn't he? +Mm. +But this, I mean they measured, in fact he even measured the track to see the, make sure the track wasn't level, you know, and +Yes. +Cos the windowsill is about an eighth of an inch out, well in one place +Mm. +but he still, the curtain was supposed to be something like sixty one and a half inches one was about a sixty one and the other was about a sixty three one end, you know? +Tt oh that's sad. +Oh what a shame. +As he said it was Christmas rush I think, you know? +Yeah oh of course it was just before Christmas. +But er you know they've just not done the edges properly either, you know . +So they've all gone back. +Luckily we've got the old curtains. +Cos I've not seen it with the curtains +No +Have another drink Tom? +Do you want a drop more sherry? +just a little drop then +Go on. +just a small drop. +You pour it out Arthur, I can't get that cork off very easily. +Tom, here you are then Tom +do you want some more +No I'm fine. +have a martini. +No I'm fine thanks. +Have a whisky. +No! +You can't mix the drinks. +I thought Tom might have a whisky if he's got a +that's a funny +Oh I, I don't want to don't want to butt in Tom +sometimes I feel I'm sh +Ah never mind about it, what about with his new car? +What sort is it? +It's a Ford Sierra. +E Evelyn +Oh it's the same sort is it? +Yeah he had a Ford last time didn't he? +Yes it was a Sierra +It's not quite the same, it was erm +Maroon colour? +Mm +Do you reckon he's given,th there's been a lot of er goings er to-ings and from-ings, do you reckon they've had a whip round? +No! +I don't think he could've been insured do you? +Well there's been no end, there's been no end to it. +Well except for third party, how long +It's funny, I don't know. +Yeah. +he left it there, do you? +I don't know he's a s +Mind you yours took a long time, you know that bump Tom had going to his +Mm, mm. +mother's funeral? +That was April, it's only just, you know? +Yeah but they sorted it straight away though didn't they? +Yes but I mean you get get the repair done don't you? +Ye yeah. +Yeah. +I mean that looked a write-off so I don't know +Well erm +You couldn't +and he said it wasn't cos he +Funnily, funnily enough he, funnily enough his car's on that picture +It is oh well it is, it's there, yeah. +M Martin said when he +Have you noticed how he, he creeps that bit, he you know, he, he don't keep back he, he just he gets just that bit behind the +Yeah. +you know? +during the day cos our cars are not there. +No well that's what I said i er and probably perhaps when you were on holiday. +The road intrigues me Tom +Yeah. +how clean it looks and the, you know the marks, those black marks, they're the joints of the concrete where they +That's right, +You know they kept +It looks very clean doesn't it? +Can you see the paving stones? +They're white +Yeah, mm, that's what, yeah. +I've never noticed those before. +Mm. +Well that's the new bit they did, you know, the little +Do you know y y you, it's a different aspect, you go out here and all you see everything at ground level and you can't really see on top of everything +Yes, mm,s see low, no. +But on there see you can see all the details can't you,at all. +Mm. +But I was struck, I was struck by the frame. +I think that frame's worth it these days, I +Yeah. +I,but I reckon you've got a bit of money in the fra in the frame. +Cos I was +Oh that lady who came with this, she said er Arthur happened to say he'd just bought it, and she said how much did they charge you, twenty five pounds or thirty pounds? +Mm. +So I said no, only twenty. +So apparently she said ooh he probably charges, perhaps if he's not very he reduces the price but funny she said twenty five pounds. +She seemed to know about it. +Yeah. +And it's funny they came together and she, she pushed +She knew, not quite together. +in while I were with the other chap . +No it was a minute afterwards because I thought +Well +oh he's come back for the, this, to show to you. +Mm. +I thought perhaps he'd been to you and sort of were you interested and he he'd come back. +But it was only a second +No. +after er sort of I'd more or less half a second and I thought oh he's come back again +But, but I had more to do with her than Evelyn but er from what little bits I've gleaned, you know, er I'm a bit into everything like, and I seem to think, I've got a f strange feeling that she's something to do with education and they're worried about children not speaking properly eventu +No! +Le let me finish. +Er eventually they won't speak real English, with all this Asian kids in now al all the Asian children have gotta go in any school haven't they and th everything, well sooner or later er this mixture of languages is gonna spoil the English language isn't it? +Bound to. +Yes it's bound to. +No what the they'll do, they'll put all the words that are used into a computer er from all these things won't they? +And then they'll see how many are sort of used a lot and percentage and that's what they'll do. +Mm. +But as Arthur says though perhaps some of the Asian words will start being used by the English people. +Oh, oh yes yes. +Well it says on the, on the thing we have to fill in er if any of the speakers is of non +Non ra er non English, yeah. +English or something a different race if you like, you're to put it down . +Because you only have to identify them by a name not not a +Do you look at er C Cilla? +not, not the surname, just J John or whoever +Mm +Mm +and, but if any of them are of not U K origin +Yes. +you've got to put it down and say which one it is. +Do you ever look at this Cilla er Blind Date? +Oh did you see that tonight? +Yes +Did you see t what do you make of that blackie with that lovely lovely young girl, pretty as a picture, and he were doing this round her and leaning back, and his great big lips ooh ooh! +Oh I hate it when white girl gets an +Well if you were if she were your daughter Jackie what would you have thought? +I know, well I ha didn't see it last week but Tom said +No I didn't see it last week. +she liked coloured people or something +Something like that, yeah. +when they were talking to her. +I was, where was I? +I don't know +We didn't see last week's, I don't know, was something else on? +But Tom said she was saying something about, you know, she liked coloured men or +Well she liked one of the coloured film stars, I don't know which one it was though +Well we we're not against, we're not against coloureds, the fact that er +you, you want to keep your race,i if you've got a an alsatian or a, a bulldog, you don't mix it with a some o you keep them, another bulldog with it don't you? +And breed your bulldogs else you lose your race don't you? +Arthur don't like +Sometimes on the television the, the +do you? +Not very much +Not really +they were showing something and er one of the er Asian lads says ooh I'm English now, and his mate says no you're not, you're British. +This were in a school playground. +Course being at home all day you see we see these things. +That, that programme that follows that, we've never looked at it before, Barrymore er did you look at that? +No +I've seen it before +We saw it once before +seen it once but +He's a , he's a bit funny isn't he? +Yes, it was quite good really. +Sometimes he's alright and sometimes it doesn't go very well. +Yeah. +Well he'd got a seven year old girl copying him hadn't he? +Yes. +I reckon he'd taught I reckon he'd taught her don't you? +I didn't see the beginning. +She were doing all this that and i the audience was screaming weren't they? +Yes. +But she'd got it off though hadn't she? +Mm. +Then they had er some fatty, fat ladies, elderly ladies, doing the can-can. +Oh was it the Roly-Polies? +Ooh that was grand. +That was good . +Similar to the Roly-Polies but this was a sort of erm an amateur group. +Mm. +Doing it for charity or +We did, we did the Merry Widow and we had,th the Gazettes they're called,th the Gazettes and er they used to come out the wings with all this, you know? +And as they run in er and I always thought it was the best of the show. +Oh well er it is nice isn't it? +Mm. +But these were very fat weren't they? +Made it more funny +Yeah, yeah. +Like the Roly-Polies, they were good weren't they? +I've not seen them lately have you? +Yeah +didn't they, do you remember? +Cos that, that,th leader gone now, she wasn't there but she turned up, she came on. +Yeah. +Mm. +With the glasses. +I like all the old silent er not silent, all the old talkies, you know the old black and white +The old classic films. +I like +But they're on too late at night, I can't stand +Yeah. +late nights, can you? +Well we're, well when we're at work I'm not quite so bad +Do you, can you stay up, have you got a television +Sometimes +in your own bedroom? +No. +Oh. +We in the bedroom +Well Evelyn me, she has this Alf Garnett on, I don't know why cos she, she's a bit particular but Alf Garnett's beyond the pale +Not always. +and he swears and shouts. +I said turn it down, you'll upset Tom and Jackie. +But that was a classic, classic one they were talking about at Christmas +When, last night? +er in one of the series I don't know which one it was. +And er +Oh w well no you haven't got Sky, it's on Sky +at Christmas +he says er and he's talking about Jesus going to the inn, er sorry Mary er Joseph going to the inn and er +Yes, yeah I think we saw that. +he said erm of course er when they got there he said it was full up and there was nowhere to go he says, she says well it always is full at Christmas isn't it . +Oh you have to laugh don't you, at some of them . +Do you reckon there is anything on that damn cloud up there? +No. +I, I look at these science things where, you know, they're sending these things, America's sending them, it's been going for two year thousands of miles an hour, you know, probably a minute er and the as the man came over who went to the moon, the top man, to lecture and he was asked innumerable questions and one was do you think there's anything up there? +He says well, I don't think +keep waving your hands about at the window the pigeons will be conspicuous by their absence. +Well perhaps it'll be a good thing in some ways, we're getting too many. +You'll have no seed left before you're able to get to the shops to buy more. +You know what Glen said on the moon. +Oh well. +They asked him what he missed the most, he said the birds. +Well we're not likely to miss those are we? +We get too many. +Well you'll miss them if they go away. +I shouldn't miss the pigeons all that much, I don't mind the blackbird and the thrush and the robin but and a few starlings but I don't like many pigeons about the garden. +They're too dirty. +They're not. +Yes they are. +Are you very bread hungry, toast hungry? +Oh no I'm not hungry at all +Well you should be. +Well you didn't have much after your dinner yesterday did you? +I don't know why you always have so many procedures remain in does it? +Don't be silly. +We're not going to go out at all then today? +Not in this fog. +And I think it's freezing, the pantry was like an ice box. +I know there's no frost on the cars but it must still be cold. +What was like an ice box? +The pantry. +I mean I +Well that's because the garage +I know I know but er +You must have had the window open. +I didn't. +It's just ever so cold. +Quite cold is the phrase. +What did you say? +I said quite cold is the phrase, not ever so cold. +Is it? +Oh I stand corrected. +You'll have to go back to the nursery. +You, you'd like to go back to school. +At your age. +I'd show the kids a thing or two. +You might. +Apparently Jackie's got +What? +got one of these Wa Walkmans. +Mm? +Beverley bought it her. +What do they do with it? +Well you can plug into the radio on these. +Oh I see +That's you see the kids with them round their neck +Yes, oh they listen to it +Listen to the radio, if, if you look at the +Yes but you can tape +I know but if you're out. +Oh aye I see what you +You see the kids walking by with them, don't you? +Mm. +And on the buses you sometimes see it. +See them +Anyway it was only a small +The eggs are not done yet. +You want them +Well do you want any tapes doing +Of ours? +No. +I shouldn't do it. +I should do your photo album. +Mm. +It's about time that was done. +Completed. +another box. +Well you can get a, get one. +Or or no I can make that higher. +No I should get another one, be too heavy to carry. +I know but ma make one or buy one of those and +Mm. +and extend it but I, I've not timed the eggs so you'll have to +Well does that really matter? +Yes it does! +I don't like mine too done well. +I've never timed an egg in my life. +Well, you never cook eggs that's why. +Well I have done in in the past. +Remember that landlady at Rushden. +She said if you're not coming home for if you're not coming home for dinner I'll boil you an egg +Two eggs. +you want something substantial. +If that's what you call, I, I told mother, I said if that's what they call substantial in Northamptonshire they don't live very well. +Well we want we've got twenty tapes to run +What the hell's it good going with nothing on it? +Well it something on it now. +It is now! +But it wasn't when you when was in the kitchen and I was on my own. +Well that's only +Who could I talk to? +You're er getting obstreperous. +Now eat that egg. +Yes. +Do you want another one? +Yes dear. +No I'll have that one, this one will be done more. +Bring on the dancing girls. +That's done a bit more. +have bacon +Well we don't have it on Sunday because we always have a great big lunch so I never +A large lunch. +A large lunch . +only have a light a light breakfast, you know we do. +If you can remember that far. +At eighty two you're ready for the off. +Mm not yet. +We've not got the er we haven't got any burnt offerings er +Yes, the other side of the toast. +Have you seen any programmes today, what's on? +No. +Is yours alright? +Just right. +These are the eggs I had from the butcher. +Has got a poultry farm? +I don't know. +Well we've got to find a new supplier haven't we? +Well there's that farm on the way to Oh! +I'm doing that all the time. +Well it's, it's your hands, you wash them too much. +No I don't, I swing across and hit your +Well put your glasses on. +You tell me. +It's not that. +Well you tell me that, +It's +if I knock anything you say you should wear your glasses or +tell you anything. +I know you do. +It's careless, I go over look +That means your eyes are not working properly. +Yours worked when you married me. +Mm. +Perhaps they ought not to have done. +Hmm not bad eggs are they? +No. +Birds have gone you see, they have what they want and then go. +Well they've eaten all that seed up haven't they? +Have you stared that new bag? +Well a bit cos the other's in the the garden shed, you know, with the seed and that. +had to climb over your +Well why put it right at the back? +Well I just slung it in, I clear passage i into the garage. +It went on the bench and it went on the floor. +Put it in one of those cardboard boxes we've got. +Plenty of those cartons about. +You always like the Is and Ts crossed. +What's for lunch anyway? +Chicken, I told you. +Oh yeah. +And the rest of that spring cabbage. +It was alright wasn't it? +Mm. +Did you like it? +Mm. +Now eat all that marmalade. +Finish that bread, you don't eat enough bread. +I think I'll get some more Seville oranges while they're in and make another +Do they come from Seville? +I expect that's where they come from. +Ah I know what they say but do they come from +Well yes there's only only this time of the year that they're about so I think they must only grow them there that make the best marmalade. +This grapefruit and lemon's alright but although our Madge prefers this to Seville, I don't. +Your Madge is too fastidious. +Isn't she? +Was that a ? +No, no. +no. +He ha he has a white coll a big collar round his neck. +Also he's very big. +Ah yeah well I couldn't quite see. +My eyes are getting worse I think. +One pigeon's eating the potato I threw out yesterday. +Well let them clear th all the bits off first before you put any more out. +Isn't it, this marmalade's alright isn't it? +Mm. +It's what I made the other week. +Jackie looked a bit better last night I thought, didn't you? +Mm. +Mm. +Did ? +Mm? +Yes, she had sherry. +Didn't have much, you know. +Tom's getting fat though int he? +Well ain't we all? +Well you're not. +You grizzle yours off. +But did, did you hear he might be made redundant? +Mm? +Did you hear what he said? +Mm. +He said erm cos the Gas Board o offices are moving to +Somewhere else, aye. +Birmingham or somewhere. +They wouldn't go over to Birmingham. +What after spending all that money on the house? +Well Look at my firm. +Razed it +Give all those crusts to the birds. +razed it to the ground +Mm. +Bring the tea in Evelyn. +Do you want any whisky in it? +Or +Well j yes +or have you had enough? +You're not going out. +just, just, just a taste. +Look the f fog is getting thick. +It is on the green and yet the back seems to be clearer. +Well the trees are +I'm going to try and manage without that er support on my arm today. +Take this marmalade knife before it gets +Well you should've put it on your plate. +Well it's supposed to be on the mat but er you've moved it. +You pushed it aside dear, like you push me aside +Mm. +I told you Cath er and Vince can't come today didn't I? +You told me what? +Cath and Vince can't come today. +Wh why? +Cos because Cath's got a cold and she thinks it +Oh were were they coming then? +Well they often do come Sunday, I wanted her to come for er Penny's birthday present but she said er well it's not wise is it? +Well I suppose not. +Tom reckons there's er +another er +It says remember to press record but I see no record on there. +Oh it is it's, it's at the top, mm. +Record, battery. +Yeah. +Yeah. +That has to be, show, why +Yes, show. +didn't you think it is working it's +No er it were the record +Oh. +I don't remember seeing it written but you see it's, it's not +Yes it is. +You see that's the red light. +you don't really look at that at along +No. +There. +Well +No Tom said there's a s er a stronger for form of flu now been going about, you know, different from erm +The original. +Oh what's that on your cup? +Bottom of your cup. +It's marmalade I think. +I dropped some +You've got +marmalade +Silly. +still in my saucer. +Has Vince got it or only Cath? +The flu. +Vince started it and Cath's got a bit of it, well sh it's not the flu as yet but +What about Timothy? +Oh I don't know about Tim. +He's always got something. +Mm. +You know I was dreaming about the office +Who told you did Cath te tell you? +I rang her up last night. +I didn't know. +I w I was dreaming about the office last night, and I saw Miss +Mm. +as large as life. +And a, and a s +Who was she? +Your old schoolteacher? +No! +Mr 's secretary, you know +Oh +Dorothy who came +Oh aye. +Well you had so many girl er names. +No and I saw her type a letter and sign it as clear as anything. +You were reliving the past. +Yes. +I know but er but the funny thing was +Do you ever see me in er +No I never see you in my dreams. +Oh yes you blank me off then when you go to sleep. +Yes I do. +No and we'd got three young girls, new, new girls and I saw those and I must have been thinking about Mandy and the car because they said something about oh when we leave we're all going on a picnic to and I think it was Kettering or quite some time aw some +Mm. +way away +What did they do when they got there? +Oh it didn't go into that, silly. +No but it must've been talking about youngsters having cars +Mm. +and er I mean and these were three young girls, they only just started to work and yet they'd got a car and as soon as they finished they they were going on this picnic +I used to think dreams, you sort of stored in your mind, you know, cos as a lad I did er sle once or twice sleep walk and er at lunchtimes they used to delegate er when you was on your last half year they used to delegate one every day to pick +I know you've I don't want to hear all that. +to pick up the lunch papers and er anyway one, one night I was wa walking across and er my dad called out what you doing? +What you doing? +And er I said I'm going to pick the papers up, he said get back into bed +and I, I remember mother saying oh we shouldn't wake them when they're +Asleep. +and the, the second sleep walk was I came down the stairs er they were having supper, of course when I was very young we went to bed early er I come down the stairs and opened the door and then I woke up. +Ooh. +Do you want another cup? +And they're the only two, yes please, they're the only two times that I recall sleep walking. +What it is, er they say it's an o o overactive brain don't they? +Mm that's quite likely with you. +Do you think it's what, when you use what you've stored in there, bringing it back? +No +Sometimes you dream things that you've never sort of c Have you finished with engines? +No I've brought, bringing other cups of tea in. +Gonna say it's +No it's not. +Now you you'll tip that over when it, with it not being level. +marmalade. +Well +It's sticky. +get another mat. +Well +I've not brought another spoon, give me yours. +Ah look what you've done! +All over the cloth +Er +that tea! +You've spilt it. +Well you it's rushing me aren't you? +No I'm not. +Well you could've washed the marmalade out while you were s out the saucer. +Well why had you put marmalade in the saucer? +It dropped in off the spoon. +Oh well you should have had your plate near shouldn't you? +You always want the Ts crossing and the Is done. +You keep saying that, now shut up. +Yes dear. +How's your shoulder? +Oh it's about the same. +I see you rubbing it. +I thought you said it was improving? +Off and on. +Well it's, more or less is. +About the same as yesterday I meant. +Oh well it looks like being frosty Friday doesn't it? +Well you, you can clear the table and put a few more photos in the album. +How many more cards have you got to fill? +Too many I'm afraid, those thin ones. +Well you bought them. +Yes there's a blind spot in everyone's mind int there? +And I'd thought they'd be, suffice. +Well they're alright, I mean +They're too flimsy. +you can't have everything, they're not too flimsy. +They do, they flex too much. +waft about. +No they don't, when they're, when when they're on top of all the others and you just turn them over more gently. +And we'll go to that new place, Office World. +Because we've got to get out one day next week, I'm getting low on things. +Well I shall want something because there are all those French photographs I've got. +No, no well I've got to do some food shopping next week, I must, and a bag of potatoes. +Yeah I expect we'll +Well +Everywhere's dead, no movement is there now? +Mm well it's Sunday morning, people at work have a lie in don't they? +Well I never used to, did you? +I did in my teens, I used to have breakfast in bed on a Sunday. +Yeah you're talking about a dream, because er in my mind I can hear George now in a bar lounge I walked in, he was with two of his mates and we got talking, he said here's my, this is m he used to say Chip then, you know, George did this is my young Chip he said he goes to work in the middle of the night. +You see painters couldn't start till nine, till the sun got up you know to +Mm +they had to go round with a blow lamp to get the frost and the dew in those big houses +Yeah. +Cos I said to young George, his son, I said he came when I was painting the sills and I says what do you do when it's frosty when you start to work? +Oh we just go along with a blow lamp. +. Suppose it's one way isn't it? +Mm. +Here comes the big pigeon, there he is. +I don't think they should +Look. +Oh yeah. +He's got a white collar you see and also he's very big +Yeah, I can see. +very fat o obese. +I should think he is fat on what you put out for him. +Well +Or her. +it's got feelings like anything else, he wants to live. +Looks as if they've cleared it all up, he's looking all around. +There weren't all that many came either. +There were, there were about twenty. +You exaggerate so. +I don't. +Yes you do. +You sound just like my wife at times. +Mm. +Pity I'm not. +Are you glad you married me? +I suppose. +Hmm you didn't sound too very enthusiastic. +You shouldn't ask the obvious should you? +Wonder how you'd've got on with our Bill +I might have tamed him. +I doubt it. +Anyway he didn't appeal to me. +Very mean. +He was a r a r a rare one for getting little sharp digs in wasn't he? +Mm like you sometimes. +We went in the Gra Grand just done the lounge at the Grand and when we had our first car and I went round to see mother and I said come on, we'll go up to the, take you up to the Grand and have a drink. +And we walk in the lounge and they've got two foot round copper covered tables, they'd covered the original with sheet and the the there was only us two and he was polishing them, you know, getting them ready +Mm. +Bill says you love d er cleaning those don't you? +And he were gonna make something of it, the barman, you know? +He always got these nasty little digs in. +Are you coming back? +Yes. +Good. +I'm not finished. +Have we had seconds? +Mm have we had seconds? +Well do you want any more toast? +No I just wondered that's all. +It's about time I washed these, they've got all, you've stuck them all up. +Phew . +Ooh that'll be the day. +Come on, let's clear these things off. +Leave that on. +You think, you think er you think I'm a good trencherman then, look +Mind. +eh? +Are you going to do your +I might as well if you +Well let's put this on the +if you insist. +Well it's, it's a job that's got to be done and you can do it on a miserable day. +Hurry up and put it on there I don't want to stand with these forever. +I'm looking for the cloth I can't find it. +There's one on the ta on +That yellow one, where's that yellow one gone? +Didn't know we had one. +No I didn't, not recently anyway. +Here it is look, yellow embroidered one. +This one. +Tatty old thing. +I know but if you're going to get glue on it you might as well get it on this instead of on the lace one. +I just washed that, that's a lovely colour. +You could have fooled me. +Hmm not very often. +Now get your cards out and the glue. +Keep the glue on the, this. +What are you going to do now? +Clean the kitchen? +In a minute or two. +Have you found them? +Well I don't know, they're around somewhere. +Ooh! +Ooh! +Ooh! +Ooh! +Let me move that chest. +You'll hurt yourself. +There you are. +You see you do forget +Right +these days. +we shall want two boxes then shan't we? +That's what I said, you'll have to start another +Mm. +one cos +Gonna sort the albums out first, one to two. +Put them in numerical order, have you got them all mixed up now? +Yeah I have, yeah, but they're all numbered. +I know they're numbered but they're not in the right order. +Well you want to start with the bottom number on the bottom don't you? +Yes. +I want +No what, what's the last number you've got? +You put that down +Number one. +No the last number +Well that's +on the bottom +that's +and then, then it will be, one will come on the top! +Yes then when you go on another holiday you've gotta fetch all of them out, shove them under the bottom. +You start at one +No +er listen, you start at one and we get to a hundred and four +Ah I see what you mean. +and er, if you do it the other way +Well if it was in chronological order, you want one on the top. +Yes I know but when you come to put a another one on you've gotta lift them all out. +I know what you mean . +Well start another box then. +You do it your way. +I always do. +I know you do. +You never take advice from me. +You haven't numbered that one. +Haven't I? +Where's that one where there's a long one ain't there of er with you er the whole +The set? +Yeah. +one of the whole set. +Well you'd got it, is it, erm well there, you'll have to sort through them. +Yeah I shall have to. +Won't you? +Till you you'll be doing, we'll have to find another table. +Didn't know we'd got so many, did you? +Yes you haven't done it up for years have you? +Put this year's on one pile. +Yeah, right, what I'm after is that set one. +Well do it methodically. +Come here, let me go through them. +No let's get it er put these in first. +Give them to me, I'll sort, find the +No you +one you want. +you er +Give it to me. +Yes I think those are, well that's the top +Take that, cos that's the top one. +that'll go on the top. +number one, well you get washing done and then you can come in when your hands are clean. +My hands are clean, I've just +Well +done the washing up so they are clean. +That's going. +Oh mhm. +We seem to have er +Seems to have +That bit. +What will you be doing today then? +Well as it's foggy I don't think we can go out. +No. +It's a pity we didn't go yesterday +Course we was gonna show Tom and Madge the, that er aerial view of the house. +Oh well we've got plenty of time for that. +Time for that, mm, besides it, there might be a lot of salt about. +Ooh you get obsessed with salt you do. +Well it's not that,i it's so they they like to get rid of it for the summer and i if there's a sign of a bit of frost out they all come, shoving it onto the road and rotting everybody's cars. +Has it froze the water to last night? +No it's s spitting with rain. +Is it? +Mm. +Just like, well more like fog really. +Well do you know what, I forgot to take the chicken out of the fridge last night so we can't have dinner so +Oh dear. +too early. +Put it in the stove, that'll thaw it. +Don't be silly it is thaw nearly thawed anyway, it won't, I'll do it right away I've just remembered. +Well must we have chicken? +Yes I haven't got anything else except t tins, and you don't want tins on a Sunday do you? +Best bread and dripping. +Ooh ooh where's the dripping coming from? +The butchers. +Yeah I used to like their pork er dripping. +I used to like Cocklin's pork dripping +N not for breakfast. +Anyway what are you going to have? +Burnt chicken +no I'm talking now +chicken fricassee +I'm not talking, that's silly. +er lightly done kippers on one side. +Ooh. +Now, boiled or poached or ? +Boiled will do. +I think er Tom and Jackie were alright last night weren't they? +What, do you mean ? +Yes, I think so. +They didn't seem to object. +No. +Did you ? +We could have a banana souffle +Well we, we couldn't, don't be silly. +No I said what are you going to do t this morning? +Are you going to do some more t put some more snaps in the album? +Well it depends on you, if you're not going out it's +We ca we can't go out in this weather, this frost. +Fog I mean. +There's er one of the pigeons I shall have to go and put some seed down. +Well you'd better go and feed them then. +I think we've got to find another cupboard for these glasses. +They're getting broken. +Er +What do you want? +well if you have that bookcase in my room that a bit wobbly. +No that tips over it's a bit wobbly. +Well I could screw it to the wall. +No. +It is a glass cupboard. +No I'm not going to keep, I don't want to keep them up there. +Er +No I shall have to find room for some of the pots and leave the glasses in. +What about the chest, empty the chest? +No you can't have gl wine glasses in there. +Well I should have thought so. +No you can't. +Oh. +No I think I'll move some of the other silver bits in. +I didn't know we'd got that in there, did you? +Oh that's been broken before has it? +See that little thing. +I think that's a bit better. +I'll er Yes I should use them, they cost nearly three pounds and if put some on the other side it will stabilize it. +Have you found your pens? +Yeah right at the back. +Well you couldn't find them the other day, you said they weren't there didn't you? +. +Hey hundred and eleven +Hundred and eleven? +That's only for the index if you want to get one out +Yeah are you keeping the index up to date now? +Er well +I mean on there, how far have you got? +I've got all that. +Got all the +Oh. +What are we up to date, a hundred and four? +Yeah we've got another seven +La Rochelle. +seven to do. +La Rochelle. +How do you mean another seven? +Well you're on hundred and eleven now +Oh I see what you mean, er only to write on there +so you, yes, yes. +But I should do each one as you come to it. +Save all this faffing about. +You would but I don't. +No. +You never do. +And another thing you see they're not as long as look, look +No. +they've cut them short. +Mm well you gave them the size and you checked the size. +I know but look yes but they've cut them short. +You checked it when you got them back. +I'm sure you did. +Well sooner be a bit be shorter +Shorter +than too long +Well I could can't I? +No it isn't, it's alright. +You use it. +Those +Well +look all over the look. +Yeah. +Oh you've used it have you? +Oh yeah, +Oh you've got the other side to do. +Yeah. +Ah but now your numbers'll all be wrong. +But it's er well it don't matter, put a number on and look for it. +Oh. +Hundred and seven. +Well use that then. +Hundred and eight, hundred and nine. +Well that's alright, we're hundred and ten +Well you've just laid hundred and ten on the back of that. +On this? +Yes, you have a look. +I just saw you write it down. +Well that's +You can alter that to a hundred and eleven can't you? +Yeah. +Make that a hundred and ten. +Hundred and eight, hundred and nine hundred and ten. +Hundred and ten. +Do that sheet and get it out of the way. +Do you want this light on? +Eh? +No not particularly. +Well, I've got the Christmas pudding. +Shall I pull these curtains back now? +Half back? +Yeah. +Ooh the fog's nearly cleared. +What are you going to put on that side? +Don't know I'm just going to sort them out when I get this card This is lovely board this one is. +I thought, I thought you said you hadn't used, we were going to take that as a specimen. +Well we still can can't we? +What with the pictures on? +Why not? +Put your pen on there so it doesn't mark the cloth. +Rest it on there. +Well that doesn't matter, the ink won't come out of it. +Well don't stand on anything +I'm not standing on anything I'm, I'm just going back in the kitch +Are you ready for coffee yet? +Yes, or something stronger. +Well , well do,wha say what you want. +Er show me the menu. +Don't be silly ! +No, you can have er can ha , it's a bit early to have a drink. +Well, coffee then. +You have coffee with a drop of er +With a dash. +whisky in. +Coffee and a dash. +Is that all? +Yeah. +From now on it's . +Don't be silly! +Ooh! +Stop it! +Don't throw these er +No. +They're all i in the throwing, I throw nothing away. +brochures away from the hotels. +I want these. +I don't throw anything away. +Cos we might go back there. +Which one's that? +That er Lakeside.. +Yes but i , well it's an easy ride and I'd go there . +Oh! +Int it? +That's enough to video this Abu Dhabi. +Which do you like? +Abu Dhabi? +This one? +Yes, well that nice +We, well which +one with the lovely lounge! +Well they're both nice lounges but overlooking the sea. +Oh er the second one +Meridian +The second one we went to? +Yes, the second one. +Well, if that's your choice, it's your choice. +Who am I to de descent against it. +Don't know where all these bits of tinsel keep coming from! +From the Christmas decorations. +From under the Welsh dresser I suppose. +I know that! +I'll get your coffee then. +Well I thought you'd never ask! +I did ask! +Don't be silly! +I've got make a fresh lot. +You didn't remind me about the steamer with the puddings did you? +No. +Well you should have! +Well yo , I wanted to make you a timer. +Yo , we got plenty of clocks we can plug in from. +What have you torn this one of me up for? +Well it were u under there with more of the rubble, so I brought it out to flatten it if I could but +No! +You should throw that away. +No, it's a garden int it? +The beginning of the garden. +Yes well +Pity that! +Shows you how I made it you see, but now +Mm mm. +I've got no record of it. +Well you shouldn't have scre , you should have +Unless we got the, probably got another film somewhere. +Well +We +you, you should +we +have er +we never throw any away. +I'll have look one day. +You should have made this years and years ago shouldn't you? +Well we had a lot to do didn't we? +What with the stage and don't you remember I used to come home Sa Saturday afternoon then start digging? +Do you remember? +Mm. +You never found those labels I made out did you? +No. +Well you, I went on the stage Saturday morning, then I used to come home to have my lunch and start digging. +That's damn funny where they went to! +Can you get them? +Well I looked through all that stuff when I cleared up this morning. +Yeah, yeah I'm going to make some new ones, I've got plenty. +You'll have to go easy on the whisky in case you get +Yeah. +the flu. +It's nearly half gone! +That wasn't fitted. +I wo , could have been off there to get it in and I've cut it somewhere. +But if I pull it off it'll tear. +No, I shouldn't. +Well cut it off there. +You cut a bit off the top or the bottom. +Yeah. +Yeah. +Well it won't look the same, but still +Yes it will! +Ha! +Here, drink this coffee. +Drink that coffee. +Ooh! +That's not very solid. +If I put it on there you'll probably spill it all over the photographs. +You have made a mess of this drawer! +Well clear it out then and throw away what you don't want, that's +Well , it's you that's er +That's what I do. +I cleared it out the other day! +That's what I often do, is clear mine out and +Ooh! +Ooh! +throw stuff away I don't want. +Ooh! +You never throw anything away! +Cut th , you can cut the bottom off that. +Yes. +I +That. +know but the then you you run out like that. +You just run out to the corners. +Yes! +Well you can cut the bottom off that. +Cut th soon see can't we? +I'll bring you the scissors cos you haven't got them. +No, I got my knife here. +Oh! +Well drink that coffee, it'll soon get cold. +What are you looking for now? +There's two boxes of paints under there. +I bet they'll have gone home now don't you? +No! +Churchill had some for over forty years! +Well we had some didn't we a long while and +Yes , but we haven't had them forty years. +Put a bit of the turps in and they're alright. +Well better go and baste the chicken I think. +No, drink this coffee Arthur! +It's no use, gotta +Yeah. +the whisky bottle sa slipped and there's a lot in! +I better get another bottle of that er +Gloy hadn't I? +You know, it was only fifty five at the little shop and in Smiths it was about seventy five. +Yeah, I know. +So whether they were selling off, I don't know. +I'm making another lot of labels. +I don't know how things ke , get lost in this house. +I wonder that times without +Well it you, put things away and then forget where you put them! +Don't you? +One thing or another. +I remember it's you, cleared my things away and I don't know where you've put them. +Yeah cos with the +I can't even find the blank labels! +I've got about four sheets that Audrey gave me! +So what have you done with those? +In that Welsh dresser. +Oh they were superfluous to requirements I suppose. +No they weren't! +You, you moved them somewhere! +When you looking for things and now I don't know where they are! +You didn't look in the right place did you? +If I don't know where the right place is, I can't very well can I? +You do faff about! +I should have done about four pages by now! +Yes I know you would. +Well I I should hate to have been your girls in the office! +Mm. +Well you can't afford to mess about like you do! +Well I know that if I was at work. +Ooh! +Ooh ! +I worked to my own initiative and it +Yes I know ! +it always succeeded! +Well you didn't like anybody working with you did you? +I'll re-phrase that. +Didn't like anybody telling me what to do. +Yeah ! +Which you're very good at! +Do you +Well +like being bossy-boots? +Well somebody's got to be in this house! +Now drink your coffee! +I'm not, shan't make any more! +Arthur, look the whisky tipped up so there's a lo , it's nearly cold! +And you've got to go easy on it now. +Because if you get flu you'll want some. +Alright? +There you are then, that's your shelf. +Yeah. +That's alright. +Yeah, that's good! +But I mean cos that was a more or less wasn't it? +Well, it was only a five minute bus ride. +A bus ride away. +Mm. +One more page done. +That's +Two, two sides done. +Golly! +We still got a big pile to stick in haven't +Well +we? +well we should put a lot in a box that +Stop now +Where's my +There's your coffee. +Now don't go and spill it all over the photos! +Anything on is there? +Mm? +Anything +Want a mince pie with it? +Yes please. +Any films +Well, what do you se , I don't know. +to watch? +But I'll go and check. +Do you want a mince pie or will it spoil your dinner? +Well spoil my dinner but +Do you want one? +No. +no. +Biscuit? +Arthur. +Yeah? +Can you come and turn the pepper mill, I can't, it with this arm I can't turn it. +About six times. +What, on there? +Put the year. +What was it? +Nineteen ninety. +Was it? +Er wasn't last year. +Yes, nineteen ninety. +That's the page number! +Don't alter the +Nineteen fifty. +Well you want your page number now you've altered your +See how smart that's on! +You silly de +I I don't scratch out like you do with the +I know! +But that was the page number! +Well, I can still put it number ten weren't it? +No it wasn't! +Oh, we'll leave that till we count them out. +Loo , look the other side that'll tell you! +Not necessarily so. +Oh yes it will! +Hundred and ten. +So it was one +Page a hundred and +that +ten! +Right. +Give me sa , another colour and differentiate it. +You could put, you could P, page a hundred and ten or sheet number hundred and ten. +I gave you that thing to put your pens on! +Yes, but I didn't want to wash it. +No, that's alright. +See, see what I mean about the board, it you know with the +Oh yes! +That's better. +I know it's thicker than the the pages love, but it's +That looks a lot better now doesn't it? +alright. +That'll be alright. +What were we on er +just wondering how yo do the what's her name? +Then getting one of those ones. +No, don't say much with that. +Well you see +Mm? +Are you going to do another one before lunch? +Well, I'll clear +Perhaps only +it up if you like. +No! +I don't want you to clear up yet. +Dinner's nowhere +Just see what we got. +near on, ready! +But I'll surely use some better card than this. +Well you'll have to use it Arthur! +Well you spent three pounds why +Well +not keep it! +that clears it up actually. +Your grandchildren +You put your, some the other side and that will, that will make it better. +Put the rest of your spel , er your stage set the other side. +Or I might get some card and stick to it. +To the back and, and then paint on that. +Well anyway, shall have to go and put that up. +Make that the blue ones. +What number's that? +Er, one hundred and eleven. +Aren't you going to do the back there. +No, cos I might put another piece, another +Oh! +on +Well u , only use one side of those then. +That looks very . +Get a bit of thicker board and er, stick it paste it like you would the walls. +Well, stick some on and don't number them then. +Yeah. +See it's still thin when you got two of those. +Probably. +Well is, put put some more on those and er +I've just told you, I gotta wait till I get a bit of thicker board! +That's the er +Well you're always buying +things! +You never drank this coffee! +You're always buying things and then wanting +Oh! +to buy something better! +You've +What? +no idea of +The thing is, we ordered it went back in the afternoon and it was cut and put on the side, I had to have it didn't I? +If they'd have shown me a bit to , when we first went I wouldn't have ordered it. +That's where they fobbed us. +Now drink this coffee! +And we, I think we did take some with us didn't we? +Or just measurement? +No, you took the measurement. +I wanted +Well +you to take some with you, but you +Well I thought +I thought as we're going to look at it. +But you see, when it was all there cut what could I do about it? +Couldn't say, ooh I'm not having it now could you? +No. +order +Well I know but didn't you go and buy some from that other shop? +It was another shop I went to. +Where you bought your canvas? +Didn't you buy a sheet there? +You said would cut into two, where's that? +No I didn't. +You did! +We saw that card, when, when I bought you that canvas +But that's, that's all the all what we got is in there. +Yeah, well you look in there! +Look in Vi's room! +Don't you remember? +You said it might make two sheets. +Well I remember buying it. +I definitely remember buying some. +This, this is er, inch and half too short or else this would have done the +No, well you'll have to leave it till we get some more then +Well +if you're not going to use that. +Well we'll keep it here . +Is it still running? +I , I've just started it again. +I see. +Oh yeah. +Erm +Well what time do you want me to finish? +Well the dinner won't be ready till er another hour and half. +There's biggie on the roundabout. +Mm. +Kids having +Now do don't you remember don't you +see the kids having a look when it, you know, you watch. +Measure it, get the right size and I'll put in my handbag. +No, we'll go together then. +I know, but I'll put in my handbag, then we're in town I've got it and you won't +Mm. +we shall have it shan't we? +So measure and give it to me so, so we've got it. +Okay? +I know we looked at some thicker board in there didn't we? +Dominoes. +Mhm. +I thought we bought one to try. +Well you said you wo ordered one for another place. +I know, but we know they've got it don't we? +Yeah. +I think it came out a bit more expensive that order, still if it's what you want you've got to have it haven't you? +Well jus er you see already cut it, therefore it had gone. +If he'd showed us some we wouldn't have even had it cut. +No. +Well, that that that shop had got so got some thicker board, I remember, and you said the size we'd got would cut about two. +Mm. +Perhaps you didn't buy one, perhaps we just looked at it. +Just looked at it, cos we got that this time. +Well, to check the size. +Well,meas , measure it and put it down so +Mm. +Okay? +Them all . +Oh alright. +Well I was just going to switch that off. +Well, you could have asked me couldn't you? +Thought he'd gone. +You don't want this milk thing here? +Oh no. +I could keep his ad , his telephone number in case we want to order +Er,? +if I miss him +Oh! +in case I miss him, and I want to order cream any time. +Yeah, throw, throw away the things you don't want. +I'll keep it in this tin in this draw. +Are you listening? +Yeah. +In case I forget where I've put it. +But I don't suppose you will remember! +Here's that thing, here's your pu stamps. +There's my sta labels! +Told you I'd +seen them. +all among your rubbish! +Told you I'd seen them. +I just, I've only just this minute written another +Well you +lot. +you won't do it again will you? +Still , I'm going to make some more of the marmalade. +Shouldn't be among my paintings then! +You put it there! +I told you I'd left them handy. +Yeah. +Too handy! +Well, look you could put these pens in the they'd go in better! +Would they go in better in another little +That's alright they'll just lay in the top. +well they don't go in. +Well that'll do for a minute so I can use it. +I mean, it's overflowing. +. +Ah! +What? +Do you want that bit of wood? +I gotta pack in something or, you know, I +Oh! +was +Well shall I put it in the rubbish? +Yeah. +Yeah. +You know when I brought my board in, I probably had that to prop it up while er +Let's get rid of some some rubbish. +Give me things you +I'll +don't want in here. +No I've done my, save the +The dustbin men won't co co , don't call till Tuesday so you haven't got to put it out today. +Can you remember? +Yeah. +Tomorrow morning. +Do you want a Martini or a sherry now? +Or wait a bit? +I'll wait for a bit, you know. +Is that rubbish there? +Give it to me. +That +Tho +er +no those bits there! +Well these are , yeah. +Give it to me. +Hey! +This is twenty eight years ago! +Yep. +Sixty four. +Do you want your room like that? +No. +Don't like it. +Look at that for a stage I was gonna +do that +on the stage. +Yo , we took your curtains off the front room. +Oh were you! +You got a lot of those in the brass box +Mm. +upstairs, you better put them altogether. +Yeah I will do. +Have you sorted all that fire out? +Yeah. +You could put them in the +Yeah, there's rubbish. +in the set. +Is that rubbish? +See I save these bits, but er never gonna use them. +Did you get the size? +No you didn't. +You don't want them now do you? +these were for our spot, look! +Mm. +Oh yeah! +That's like mine's, front room. +Mm. +Oh look! +This is it. +The old marble fire . +That's it. +That was with . +Well I mean, ours ours was. +Go on, give that to me. +What's that? +What? +Slides. +Don't want it now do we? +Is that the old one? +Mm? +About time we got rid of some of this! +Some of . +Now put all this the photographs together! +Oh! +Do you want a box for them? +Oh er , well I'll take them all in the brass box. +Put them there, there's room in there. +What about his letter? +That's gotta go in the +Well put that with your snaps then if you're going to +Mm. +put that in the album. +Right there, well I'll put it there. +Mm. +Leave those there I'll take them up with me. +What are these odd ones here? +What are they? +Ah? +Gotta go in there. +Well you can put some of those pens in here rather than +Well , that lid on there can it be used though? +It's not a lid! +Oh is that lid? +I didn't, I thought it was overflowing. +But it's also if you got, if you ain't +Well +got one on the end it keeps the dirt off. +Er that can go on there then can't it? +Well did they take the nice empty box? +Oh! +There's the one I were looking for. +Put that on there. +Won't you +That's er , the one I remember play, remember. +They're, they're old negatives, you don't want those do you? +No, but you , didn't have all the others up. +I mean er +Well you never wanted to have anything of mine. +Do you want that? +They're two empty boxes. +That's going in the album. +Yes, well put that with the others over there. +Er, you know where you're sitting? +Mhm. +You know you +Yes , that er +that's the, under the . +on the set. +Yes, I remember. +That's the group. +They're are two empty boxes there. +They can go in the garage can't they? +Er +No , I shouldn't put them in the garage they'll get damp there. +Oh well I er, I shall leave them there. +Well put them in with them. +Or take them upstairs till you're ready to use them. +Some +Do you want that painted? +Well that was the idea. +You wanted to paint it sometime didn't you? +Yeah. +That's right. +And yo , and that's all on. +Well perhaps next week. +Till we get the thicker card you could start the painting. +After I've finished one I bet there's another and tha , and then there's that. +Well that's alright. +Didn't want , er, didn't want no more do we? +Still we're still way in but +That's it that on telly. +And there where you were running al , along with we were running along the chimney with burning la , to warm us hands. +I've just found that under the stairs. +Yeah, I want that in the +Yes! +with the . +Well you'll be looking for it in a bit won't you? +I often do. +You never, where did you find that in the end? +Back of that chair. +You do put +But surely +you do put things in a funny +I just found it. +place! +Do you know I've +Yeah but co +emptied this cupboard looking for it! +I find them eventually. +Mm. +You got six library books there did you know? +Better take them all back then. +Well you haven't read them yet have you? +Well if you want them out the way then take them back. +I don't want them out of the way, I'm just saying how many you've got! +They never rung any more about that one they said you +No! +They must have found it. +I reckon +Whoever took it out of there I suppose +they booked it in for you and somebody said this is reserved and they forgot to take it off your +Off of er +red +Yeah. +one. +Anyway, we know we pushed it through the you know +I'll have to write to them. +in through the box don't we? +Here comes . +It's a light blue car that isn't it? +Oh yeah! +Yeah. +Well +puts , puts it on +mid-blue. +Puts it on the drive now, it's er +Mm. +so perhaps he feel it. +In a way. +But he he'll sa +It'll be alright. +he'll the say the weight knocks our wall down. +Ah but then aga , but then again if you don't lean against it he says +I reckon he's cracking up! +Another thing against it if he'll get three ca , he'll have wo , his on the drive and he'll be able to park two cars on ours. +Yes. +Yeah. +Still, and as they only do it every Good Friday it don't . +Erm +They've buffed their wheels on again. +Well some, well it always is +Well +they're always keen doing What's on this afternoon? +Two, two fifteen King of the Wind. +Buffalo Bill's on at quarter past twelve. +No, well we saw that didn't we? +It wasn't what you thought it was. +No. +Well, what you going to have whisky and dry ginger or a martini, or sherry? +on a plate. +Well go and fetch it. +Walk +Yes. +across and get it. +If you hadn't have bought those library books we could have carried some home the other day! +Well it ain't as good a . +I know. +It's a bit thirsty. +Well you don't know anyway do you? +Anyway, let's er +Oh he's gone off with her ! +Oh, well they're going around now. +Thank them for the +To show her the car ! +thank them for the contributions. +Er, now, what are you going to have to drink? +Well you, do you think so? +No! +Sherry, Martini, or whisky? +Martini. +That's all we've got. +The vodka's all gone. +Evelyn! +Evelyn! +Evelyn! +I forgot to do the parsnips when I did the potatoes, but I think they'll be +Yeah, that's alright then. +I've done some now, I think they'll be ready. +Oh you done some? +What's on? +Twelve o'clock . +No, we don't want anything till about +Here it is! +two. +Er,two fifty, Spain, Spain! +International cuisine . +Cuisine! +Cu cu cuisine. +And then there's a +No I don't want Spain. +We don't like Spain! +Er, Those Were the Days somewhere, I can't pi pick it up now. +Usually four thirty Those Were the Days. +Oh yes! +Sky News. +On Sky News. +Those Were the Days, four thirty. +Oh we'll have that. +Oh! +Unless you wanna have a look at that,eleven thirty , that's now Holiday Destinations. +It's gone now. +Plan your holiday for the new year . +Well , put it on and I'll +It's on now. +Yes, well put it +Twelve thirty to er +Well it's not, it's not twelve +er +yet! +No. +Eleven thirty to twelve thirty. +Well put it on then! +Well yo aren't you interested then? +Well I've got to go in the kitchen +No. +and get this! +I shall be back in a minute. +You don't have to go in there and get +By the time you've er +Anyway these +What is it on? +these plugs have been left on again. +Well I don't know! +You do it, everything! +Is it on Sky or is it +You er, you were the last up. +on the card? +You were last up weren't you? +No I wasn't! +Is it on Sky or is it +Sky. +on a card? +Is it on the card? +Sky. +But what number Sky? +I think er I think er we've seen that before. +Yeah, I thi , yeah. +It's old er oh! +You didn't show it on that did you? +No. +You know if you go out front +Show it up if people had done all of it with it, but now it doesn't look in with it yet. +No. +Arthur. +Yeah. +Dead head the pansies. +Dead head them? +Yes! +Well lo lo look! +A lot of the want dead +Ah! +heading, and if +I'll do +go out the front +I'll do that. +just take them off, else the it'll so , they'll stop flowering. +We only seem to have one in the erm basket. +Don't know whether the others have died, but they a there only seems to be one. +Trouble is, down at the dra , they're dry we haven't been watering them for +I've been watering them! +Yeah? +In fact, I'm just going to water +But +it now! +cold weather they've froze the roots. +Oh well there's one with lo two lovely flowers on but I can't see any on the, any of the other plants. +Is there anything on this afternoon? +Four thirty, er, Those Were the +Ah! +That's on the radio. +Oh yes, but +Those Were the Days. +Sky. +Mm. +Ah, I mean a film? +Nothing particular. +Just seeing what's on the oh that er Argentine thing. +I told you! +I think one's Wednesday and Churchill Thursday. +Write it down. +You look, I think it's or Monday, something on Monday night. +There's something on Monday, Wednesday and Thursday I looked at thought we might see. +Well, I thought that Argentine +In the evening. +thing would come on. +Yes it is. +I I told you when it was yesterday but you didn't remember! +You don't remember! +Now I don't! +At night, it's at night. +No wonder they're expensive! +Take about over twelve months to you know, to sort of come to even leaf leaves. +Yes, but we've had several frosty weeks ain't we? +I know, but the on the kitchen window sill, I take them off at night. +Should be alright. +Well they are alright. +But, the old ones that Tom gave me originally they've not flowered now for about three months yet they're not dead. +I've been figuring out S, A and B,wha why you ha , you have to start, you know, then I realise it's but you gotta put it in the way it's ready to er record haven't +Mm. +you? +Is it opposite to the one we've got +Mm. +there? +It's not, it's not on the +Oh well that's what I said, it was no use, bothering +there's no use bothering to how ours worked you've got to sort of know how this one works. +Well it's nothing to do with the working really,ma , it's the fact that they with A facing you the spool is ready to run. +Yeah. +And then, put it the other way i if there were nothing that side you'd have to put it on B because that's ready to run. +Mm. +It depends on which side you start you see. +Well they say always start on A don't they? +Oh! +Well I mean it's nothing to do with the +I mean you are now +mechanism of it, so +No. +the fact whether, one side is full, the spool you're going to wind on is right for recording. +Mm. +Ah, and like +Well we always do ours on A for a start don't we? +Mm. +You do don't you? +I don't know, I never do ours. +Anyway, are you very hungry? +Mm. +Not hungry at all really, I +Well you should be! +such a big breakfast. +You didn't have a big breakfast today! +You only had a boiled egg and flakes. +Well, you know what my landlady said if you want something substantial I'll boil you and egg. +Oh well ! +This was about forty years ago! +They we , they were doing three days a week in the town. +Times were hard then. +Yeah. +And pe , people did take in lodgers didn't they? +Mm. +To make ends meet. +Keeps everybody together. +That's, that's that's what Kath thought. +No! +We were having to make ends meet. +What have you got to worry about? +Well I'm saying what Kath's +Yeah. +worrying about, not what I'm worrying about! +Kath's not worrying about us, she knows we've got plenty. +Well +Or efficient. +Why did she say that? +It was a joke! +Oh. +She had the +Like you joke! +You joke and yet, you can't take a joke! +Yes, but Kath's jokes have a sharp cutting edge +No they haven't +to them. +No they haven't! +You +My jokes are soft and er +Ooh! +Ooh! +Ooh! +Ooh ! +They're not! +Your prejudiced you are! +And I have, I think I made mine a bit strong! +I tell you, if I have a drink, when I have a drink, a short in the morning it goes to my head, it's not . +There used to be a cafe, a cute;the er you used to go in and have a cup of tea and that and yo , he started selling jam, pots of jam with they had him in court, it was er it had fell off a lorry and he was selling it a bit cheap and er he were telling us about it. +I says, what th , he said, he said, well I've I told the judge everybody's got two jobs, he says he said to the judge, you've got two jobs. +Course he were right weren't he! +Why? +How had he got two jobs? +Well they wanted to know why as he was just running a cafe, a cute; why he was selling jams. +Oh I see. +Of course, where did he get the jam from? +It fell off the lorry . +I thought they'd find them sixty odd . +About er, redecorated Mrs house. +Put +Mm mm. +chair rail up and encruster. +It wouldn't stick. +Saturday afternoon, I ought to have been at home it was three o'clock and I should have been at er, in Leicester then. +There I was trying to get the encruster to stick. +A and then there were no trains. +I got home about nine at night. +Things I'll do for people! +Oh it was useless! +You'll have to start doing a few jobs for me next week. +She did some good er +She looked after +things. +you well. +I were there about eight years ago. +No. +How long will that cupboard door take? +I've got I've only got one door on that cupboard. +That sliding door. +Oh, the sliding door! +Oh that just wants fitting that's all. +I know that! +One side's open to the +Atmosphere. +Well, gotta be easy one hand you get the pots in. +No, well I li I like the two on. +Yes. +I like the two on to cover i things up, the jams one side and the pots the other. +I think when we go in town I'll get another lot of seville oranges make another lot. +Well I want some jars thou , though before I can. +So we've got to go to Maggie's or Kath's and get some. +Is Madge and Tom clear of fu , flu? +Well Tom said they were nearly. +Lot better, but not quite. +Lo , mm. +Did they go to the +Now Kath is +doctor? +No. +Kath Kath did for Vince, she got some anti-biotics for Vince. +She had to send for him New Year's Day for Vince! +Mm. +What a big chap +Cos +like him? +Yeah! +Oh he's always at the doctors! +I re , Madge reckons he's he's about as hypochondriac as Kath ! +Oh! +Bigger the bigger +Well Kath , Kath encourages him to be like that +The bigger they are , the harder they fall don't they? +Yeah. +Well no, he has got a bad throat an you know, he had a little lump in his throat, I think they thought it was cancer or something or a little growth, but you often get that in the throat. +Mhm. +Well my only deficiency in a temper. +Well, you can say that again! +And patience! +Some things you can spend hours on, and then others you can't spend two seconds! +Like this! +It depends whether I'm interested or not . +Well, you were interested enough in that weren't you? +Originally. +And then you get fed up. +I reckon you're always peering over my shoulder! +No I'm not! +You tell me to. +You do. +You say wait! +Check that I'm alright and then when I do or suggest you you get the hump. +You don't like me to know more than you. +Do you? +Never studied the question really. +You have ! +I'm going to baste the chicken anyway. +Do you want this stopping now? +No you can leave it on. +Well you're going out! +I know, but then they that's +Not gonna talk to myself! +why they give you ten so that you know, you get intervals, between, because the girls have got to sort of tap all the words in +Yeah, yeah well er thirty two minutes of hush hush +Well , I'm coming back +Sing a song +anyway. +Shall I sing a song? +No! +You shouldn't do anything. +Do you want any, another drink or or +Ooh yes! +Keep them coming! +No , I'm not. +Keep coming. +Who bought what? +The glass house at the ? +Did he buy it or did the agents? +Well, where is the glass house? +Is that it, that one that I put +Up the +last year! +Yeah. +Yeah. +That, that's over the fence, er, the back, it's in Summerleigh that is. +What do you mean summer? +What you on about? +No , it it's not, it's not +their house,i you look +It's just shelters. +Yes, but tho those glass houses are over the fence the other side in Summerleigh. +They're +But +not on the, out of these +No. +gardens. +That, you see that privet, that's not the end of his garden because it's foreshortened. +Well we are +The only +foreshortened +All that lot? +further down, yes! +No, they're not! +They are! +Oh! +Cos, didn't we say our te , our gardens are long to er to have fields. +But when it comes to +Oh! +the others further down +So it's, this is our garden +they're shortened. +that's shelters there. +Yes. +Well that's a glass +And then the +house, if you look +Aye, he's got one. +I see what +It's +you mean. +it's that er +Mm. +corner house on that road down there. +Mm. +Let's have a look again, I've got my glasses on now. +Yes, it was taken about July that was, must have been. +Because I remember when Tom was on holiday tha that ground was all dry wasn't it? +Mm. +Well it is now. +Silly! +Er, the baskets not ready. +That er +Yes it's go , that's the begonias in the basket. +Mm. +And they're the begonias on the front patch. +Mm. +And there's the wheelie bin just inside that. +Mm. +It must have been, probably had them taken on a Monday then. +Mm mm. +I'll get it ready to go out at +Either go out or go in. +Mm. +And that that's his er, that's his garage +It's his garage. +and that little bit is that his +Yeah. +And tha and that's +extension? +When we were talking to the builders tha he were putting that in. +Yeah. +Er da , almost a about to. +Yeah. +Yeah. +Two pipes, yeah. +He practically did that. +No, but that's their little extension isn't +Mm. +it? +On there. +Mm. +To the, oh no that's the . +Oh I se a lot, oh +In the front. +the extension must be +Yeah, there. +there and will become +Yeah, that's that bit +Oh yes! +That's what I told you, yes. +Oh yeah, he used to climb on that, to get on the garage to er, shout +Yeah. +down +Yeah. +at your +Yeah. +Yeah. +This one's more dry than that +Well, the top one never was as good as the bottom one. +Well and that's all but +Well you never bother with that so much +and that and that +do you? +Oh they've still got building that, look at the rumble, rubble. +Yes, they haven't clipped down on the front. +I told you +They just finished building that even +Yeah. +must have been, what, July when it was +Yeah. +And they're all the new slabs in the pavement, the men came and putting new slabs in. +Well they went on about our spots then won't they? +Yeah! +Well it never was last year's, there was no +Oh. +hosepipe ban at all, we keep saying that so I don't know what people are on about! +You know, ee, that's just a new +New, new thing like. +I like it very much those hou +Yeah! +I think Jackie and Tom they'd they did. +I mean er if er, anybody ever takes this over when I'm gone and you sell it +Yeah. +er, you co you could sell this with the house. +Mm! +Of course. +Oh yes! +At times we don't have it. +Mm. +Or er, keep it yourself. +You better do something about his hook, bend it round else +Mm. +I'm sure it's going to come off one day. +Well er, I'll see to it one day. +Ah! +I don't mean one day. +Oh I better go and see if there's any erm if my Christmas pudding wants er filling up. +We're on side B now aren't we? +Mm mm. +So, it's the twelfth +That's side A int it? +No! +We're on the second side of this. +Oh yes, we turned it round. +And what time did we start recording? +About twelve noon wasn't it? +I better put er Well Kath and Frank won't be coming, I told you didn't I? +Yeah. +What, cos they got er +Well, just getting over it. +Vince is, and Kath thinks she might be +Snuffley. +starting it or, she's got a bad cough. +So we shan't be able to have anybody else in today to +No. +be on the tape. +Pity about that isn't it? +Cos they could have come up and looked at that . +Mm. +Oh well. +Do you want that filling up? +Mm. +Er +Do you want it filling up? +Yes, you might +The same? +as well. +Might as well. +Do you want lemonade in it? +Ju exac +Or tonic water? +exactly as before. +Lemonade or tonic water? +Neither more , neither less. +No differentiation. +Do you want tonic water or lemonade in it? +Tonic water. +It might do something for me. +But you've not had your cod liver oil today! +Now come and get it! +That'll do even more . +Co , no come and have that cod liver oil. +Okay! +I'll do that. +Leave it on. +Is it on ? +Yeah . +Keep it on when we go out +It's wasting the battery. +No it's not! +Are we taking them books back? +Only when you're ready or, they're not due back yet. +Only I can't get a chance to study in the meantime. +Course you can! +Drink up! +By the way, the cod liver oil's finished. +Finished? +Just drank the last, er, there might be a shade +Mm mm! +in. +I didn't think you'd had much of it. +Mm. +That'll take the taste of it off, if you keep drinking that. +What book's that? +Machine and power tools, how to use them. +Is that the one you had out before? +Ah? +Yeah. +Is it? +What? +No, I had it last week, this +Oh! +Friday you +I, I know +you had that one but I thought I've seen wo , a similar one the other week. +They're all much alike. +Oh it's not the same one? +I get that one . +Anyway, what what do you want with those now? +Leave it for the beneficiaries. +At your age. +Have you seen all the seagulls? +Yeah. +I've seen them before. +Well they're all circling over the roof. +Ah, I don't know what they have to eat. +Well it's +dove dirt I think. +You look! +Well tha , the only thing I, when I walk across the green, the only thing I see is dove dirt. +It might be +Mm! +perhaps it's Kitty Cat twice removed! +You have a look at them! +Look at them! +Mm. +I can see them through the reflection. +Dunno why they're circling round there. +If I see one drop th they they circle and if one drops they go down too. +They'll be on our lawn next! +Lovely machines they got out now! +Look, that's a planer. +Mm. +French . +Well they're not for amateurs are they? +No, but I mean they do it the easy way the +Oh yeah! +professionals. +They don't do it the hard way. +I like the tonic water as good as wi , ah, with the Martini! +What do you think? +Do you think it's better than lemonade? +Well it's nice! +Tonic? +Very nice! +I like it! +I can't stand the sweet saccharin in the lemonade! +Somebody's thumping! +Mm. +Can you hear them? +Breaking bits of concrete. +Dunno. +Perhaps they're putting the the fence back in. +It blew down in the gale! +Sounds a bit like that. +You know that wheel on, last made with a band of emery on +Mm. +around the things look, you see if you're doing a curve he's got electric drill with a round bobbin in , but mine's on a shaft, the bit, for when and also, there's my sander disc. +Mm. +Supposed to push that up to it and yo , your dead square and clean. +Well when you saw it without that after you've sawn it you've gotta +Gotta sa +square it off and file it and that does it in seconds! +So you just put it on your in that steel table I made +Mm. +push it straight through it to till it's done. +You'll have to try to do it. +And er +Well, I think I'll go and put the potatoes on. +I suppose you should you sho , push it with a stick by the saw so you don't get your fingers in. +Mm. +Right! +I'll go and baste the chicken and put the potatoes on I think. +I just switch this on. +Anyway, button's not down. +It is. +What made you think it wasn't? +I thought I saw it +Well it's going round. +The +Oh! +lights on. +Well that's alright then. +Well mo , not much on the news was there? +Not really. +Still all these +Election. +poli electioneering. +Get fed up with it! +And all of them can only do just carry on, the money's not there, it's not there is it? +Custard's a bit hot. +Mm. +What do you think to my pudding? +Very nice! +Up to scratch. +It's a refreshing change int it,plu plum puddings? +Christmas puddings. +Well +No, plum , I know they used to call it plum pudding! +Had it have been yesterday it was plum puddings cos they +I know! +put plums in. +Well they don't now do they? +Oh. +I gave one to Jackie and not heard whether she's had it or not. +No. +Well she wouldn't tell you if she had would she, really? +Unless you ask. +Well, it's only polite to say whether if you +Oh yeah. +give anybody anything er, to +Yeah. +eat,i if they liked it or not isn't it? +Well probably not, with not, having the flu. +Well I'd tell you . +Did she have the flu then? +Mm? +Well, she wasn't well, I don't know whether it was flu or +Mm. +Don't you remember she spent Boxing Day in bed! +Oh yeah! +Well Madge did didn't she? +And the children didn't come so +Madge did. +She we , well she looked ill I thought. +Mm. +Well she works hard doesn't she? +Mm. +Dashing about. +Did Joan get any, er or is she sta erm is she, is she sure to remain in a constant, neither better nor worse? +Well, I think some days she's better than others, but on the whole she's not making much progress. +I don't think she will. +I mean +But +it's always been +in other words Peter's sort of stuck with it isn't he? +Landed! +I mean, she's always been that way nervous and +Mm. +right from when she was first married. +Well, I was always the nervous type. +You're still neurotic in some things! +Being a nervous type. +Ooh! +I wouldn't say nervous type. +Just a bit +What would you say? +Neurotic over certain things. +Why wouldn't you say I was a nervous type? +Well, not normally. +Er , what conclusion has it come from? +Well, not in the same way Joan is. +But you get het up over silly things! +What do I do with the big things? +Deal with them as they come up? +I don't know ! +Deal with it as it comes on. +How's Muriel then? +What's she +Well, she's just coping, just dragging her arms int she? +Can't see what she sees in her cousins though can you? +All +Well they always did! +I mean, I can remember when she worked with me, every Christmas they changed one time they came to Leicester +Mhm. +and the next year they went to Loughborough with their cousins. +And so, I suppose, they're keeping it up now. +I wouldn't know my cousins fir christian names now! +You know Edna! +Oh well that's yo +Ed and Meg. +Ah but that's er, Vi's side isn't it? +Well, it's the same +Well I mean Lawrence +, yes well, it's cousin isn't it? +Oh yeah! +And I expect all the other's are dead! +Your mam was one of the youngest wasn't she? +Mm. +Well then! +The eldest. +Oh! +It's a rum do life int it? +You're born, you suffer, and you die! +You suffer? +I don't, not notice you suffering much in life! +It's a piece of cake for you! +Somebody to wait on you! +Hand and foot. +And by the way, you've got your old trousers on did you know? +Oh! +Have I? +Oh! +Yes you have! +Have you got rid of the cod liver oil taste yet? +Oh that goes immediately. +with that. +Ooh! +Don't know how you could drink it! +It's yo , well if you hold your breath you you sort of don't I found out you don't get the fla ,yo fla , you can't taste it, you sort of clench yourself and you don't taste. +That's quite easy to perform. +Shall I get you another bottle? +Might as well. +It might do something for me. +Try the capsules. +No. +I can't take many. +I'll have some in the then stop. +Oh, I could take them. +We used to take handful at Powerjets but they said +You used to repeat +it used to be known as it was a war do , war factory but you cut them open it were nearly all casing. +They were er little +Well I suppose it was concentrated. +Yeah. +But ca ,pe , I drink it out the bottle and that's the best. +Pour it in a glass and look at it, or a spoon but pour it out the bottle, hold your breath and Bob's your uncle! +It's gone down! +People talk about they can't take it, that's poppycock! +Well I couldn't. +Can't even take the capsules. +Th , they stick on me half way down. +Oh it's drying up. +I think it must be turning cold. +Do, you feel cold don't you? +I did do in the front, er, yes. +Yeah , but you got the radiator on and the gas fire! +Yo , well you've still the gas fire as well in here! +Hadn't you better sit in your chair for ten minutes before clear up the lunch. +Well it's still winter isn't it? +Got worse if anything. +February's always the worst month. +You reckon? +Oh it is! +Everybody always says that. +Now sit in that chair +Finish? +No. +Leave it for a minute or two. +I'm just taking them out into +Leave +don't you? +No. +Leave the pots and everything. +Arthur I'm hot in here! +I'll wash these green mats. +These, the other green mats. +So, don't go looking for them because they're in the wash. +How do you feel after last night? +What, the late night? +Yeah. +I'm alright. +I wonder what possessed you? +I've not had my bandage on today. +I say, I wonder what possessed you? +Oh! +I know! +That's a bug. +It's +I never went though did you? +No. +No, I was dreaming, I told you earlier I +Oh! +Well it's what you want with your arm int it? +Course not. +It's still +Rest and more rest. +No! +I've got to use it they say. +Oh! +Or try to use it, but it's still +You won't be able to +I still can't +you won't be able to keep hurting it though, eh? +No. +I still can't carry anything heavy in it. +But still +Will it be always like that then? +Oh no! +It should go back. +Does Marge ever say +No, she said she gets arthritis in hers and I expect that's what it is with mine. +Cos I got a bit before when +More like it's the aftermath of the break. +It probably has it. +It's the only thing I can say and I think +Well it's the +I think +the silliest +my thumb +silliest thing to happen isn't it, really? +Well it's happening every day! +I bet after on Friday +Well I re , I noticed you the other er, last time we went anywhere it you look one way and walk another! +Well, you have to look what's on the stalls! +Yes, and therefore it happens , you tread on something and Bob's your uncle! +You should always look where you're treading I was told! +Mm. +I notice you do. +And that was mainly for dog dirt but now it's for other hazards int it? +Did you put that clock right after you put +Which one? +In the hall. +You know, you pushed it on a couple of minutes to show somebody. +Oh! +Never bothered to do it, there's plenty of other clocks to look at. +I know, but cos I, I think our bedroom and bathroom clocks are +Tell me what this one is compared to Madge's? +I could tell you. +This is one thirty four. +This is one about wo , er one thirty three in the . +That clock's right then. +Oh what about that then! +Yeah. +You must have altered it. +I know most things obtrusively. +Ooh! +Which you never give me credit for. +Have to do all the scenery +Well done! +but I never pushed in and stood on the stage, look I've done all this! +Well +Some would. +I've seen them do it! +No wonder! +Stop! +Is it that one? +Oh! +No birds about at the moment but they've had a good feed of chicken, but +Yeah. +they've left the bread. +Yeah. +Can't be that hungry then are they? +No. +Yes. +Just washed up. +You've had a nice little +Yeah! +I went +sleep. +You went right off! +Left me to do all the washing up! +Well you can have tomorrow off. +Well it's wash day tomorrow. +Sky looks full again doesn't it? +Mm, no. +I think it's turned, going to turn foggy, freezing fog again. +You've burnt your I can smell burnt rubber. +Your slippers have been against the fire. +You've got that paper down there. +I can see it! +You always say that. +You can, better pick it up. +No , you're not going to do any more, oh you can't do any more till you get some thicker board can you? +Oh well! +Put the right cloth on then. +What's the time, two? +Half past. +No! +Quarter to three! +Oh! +Well Turn round! +What? +You can get through +Oh! +I tell you those chairs are too low now now we're getting old. +Want some high back chairs. +I think I'm going to treat myself to one! +Oh it's going a bit misty int it? +Well that's what I say th fog's coming back. +Ooh my eyes are getting really bad +Oh if it starts working its do +well yes I know but my eyes are getting really bad, have another chocolate. +Do you want some more spectacles? +No its not that, its just their deteriorating +no, you are those +there all truffles, no there what Audrey +no, you have +bought us, between us +no they go off +no, there really beautiful chocolates +any way I want +there Marks and Spencers they are yes I, it, it Cath and Frank intended to come +they wouldn't now +I doubt if they would in this well I wouldn't want them to come in the fog +well no there +because +will be no point would there? +did you hear er the news? +not all of it +a lot of crashes on the M 6 +well there always is in't there? +yes, but Sunday I mean +mm +people don't have to go out Sunday normally +mm +don't, and the kids have been crossing at shop. +Trouble is its too fast too close in it? all the time +mm +I don't see how any one doing sixty can be three or four feet from another's bumper can you? +no oh yes I should think he's learnt his lesson putting it on the +I reckon somebody +bashed the other one +well its been on the road +yeah +its never done that before has he? +no , no +perhaps somebody didn't like, perhaps he told somebody to stay there as long as he likes +mm +they showed him he couldn't +mm, oh don't let me eat any more of these because there too sickly wouldn't you like a Jamaican rum truffle? +I mean he had it brought from somewhere didn't he? +mm, yeah, wouldn't you like a Jamaican rum?, here have one of those that's Jamaican rum see if you can taste the rum +I suppose there he he didn't like to leave it the way, the way it was done +no, well +Oh, we can see it from back room now can't we? +Mm, if its a good record, yeah, how d'ya like that? could you taste the rum? +yeah +couldn't eat many of these though could ya? +oh no , but there's plenty of lights +mm, I'm glad were not out in it aren't you? +It looks as if their all coming back, their all coming from the shops where their usually their going. +Cos I thought it'd been a nice day we could of nipped down to Sainsbury's +well say when you look at that picture its just a bit er unusual in't it? +well aerial photo is er, bound to be different +he must of come low to took that mustn't he? +unless he had a big zoom lens +Tom seemed to think he come low last night +did he? +mm +oh I wouldn't know I mean these zoom lenses are pretty powerful aren't they? +well there is that wouldn't taken him went off to the ch +it was taken about last July +the, the leaves would be off wouldn't they? +July, and I bet, bet my bottom dollar it was taken when Jackie and Tom were on holiday because of how their bit of front garden is all dried up and that building at the back was completed +about that time, mm +just before they stopped work the day before the July a fortnight holiday didn't they? +yeah +they'd got little bits to do, but there was +the front hasn't been, all their rubble still on the front +still there , but they finished the main building +yeah +at the end of June so that's when that was taken, you ought to of asked him when you saw him today +can tell his white brick work, that were only done last year wasn't it? +no been done two or three years +mm +you ought to of asked him when he sold it to ain't ya? +eh, it were that lady come quick and he +no +he went off quick +no he went off quick, but I mean before you, while I was getting the money +mm +you should of asked him if you +I was too busy looking at the picture and the frame +yeah I know you were +I were weighing up the value of the frame +not the picture +I like the frame though very much +oh I do its like the mountains +its some moulding like that +well you know +I bet the mouldings very dear +well you know +cos you know that black stuff well, well that was four pounds wasn't it that length? +about nine pounds a length for eight feet +yeah, summat like that weren't it? +yes, well there's a new shop opened near the showers market, erm new thing brick a brac its called, we'll go in there its got, they keep advertising and they've got one in Mayfield Road +oh we'll have a look then sometime +so when were out +so if you don't get it +when you've painted some more pictures +I if you don't bring wood worm with it +no, well the you, they've got mouldings as well as the frames +mm, mm +you've got to paint some more pictures though haven't you first? +we've got a, got a picture of those just, er, with er you know with the flowers on, so be, really wanna is to make them back to the original, see they had nowt frames and I cut it up but +yeah, pity you didn't keep the frames +yeah, oh well I did for quite a while +still I like I'd like them as they are I did +but there was in the coal, well they looked a bit heavy on the wall +yes they did +you want a big room really don't +well if you see any in the Antiques Roadshow you'll know what to do +yeah +see if they are valuable these days +well there just cast your look, but I think cos of the frame was a modern looking +yeah, cos you changed it for a +yeah I don't think he looked at these last too much +no, well if they come in handy +they, those people don't like it altered in any way do they? +mm, well if they come again I shan't let the say were not selling any more bits +no, I'm sure the landlord I'll +well I don't know we've still got plenty +his entitled to the +in he? +well there not finished yet are they? +well that one is and the one in there +that one's not its not got the flags on the top +well the one in there is +well they, they specialize in +nick knacks +no, in certain things either +well as far as that stoat didn't offer them any thing because they, a chap about forty he reached it +it was, it was all tough weather scale of six, on, you know, and I said what, how much is that up there?, and he said ten shillings, I said a little bit dear in't it?, cos ten shilling then was ten shilling +mm +and he says su its a good buy even for that says, it, you know, its a hundred years old, oh well he says it was continental, but er +well it perhaps wasn't just what he was looking for +no well he knew what he were looking for, something worth when you think +no its not +I bet they come across it as well +what about those painti , that painting before he had the market stall +yeah +it were rolled up in a wood set er cardboard cylinder and it fetched half a million didn't it? +I think it was er +I think it were a lot of money +some painting of some homes in er a desert at night, it had been missing for er nearly a century +I er, the Antique Roadshows on tonight +how much was this? mm +so we'll have to see +best of it is he hadn't taken it out of the +roll +roll , roll you know the box +well he put it in, probably didn't put it, must of taken it out to of looked at it surely +it'd look like that might of been looking in the markets and that +oh I know +for that thing +well you've done quite well really haven't ya? +yeah +collect so many bits Val buyed it didn't she? +yeah, oh +that teapot and plate +she did well to of got them didn't she? +and what else did she, that tobacco jar oh no +its a pity +you bought that didn't you? +pity, I wonder what if we'd of had those what they would of offered, but they went for sale +I think +and they only fetched twenty five +no they didn't, they fetched seventy +seventy was it? +remember you said that thirty five of that would of been ours any way +be, yeah yeah +but I think a lot of those about they get astronomical +they, they also there a dangerously expendable on that corner of +mm +that shelf wouldn't they? +mm, you'd of knocked them down +er you you'd of knocked them down wouldn't ya? +you would have, or I would have +yeah +you going to make us a cup of tea? +I will if you so desire +those chocolates have made me sick, take them out of this hot room +what the chocolates? +mm, put them in the pantry +I thought you were going to put them inside here +no I've had too many, I feel sick +I've eat er four some +well there the sort that you only want about a couple at a time at the most +well one , one a day I should of thought. +How +I don't want any thing in me tea +no +I put all the things ready +what you say? +I put all the things ready, but use the tea in the old, empty the old lot out before you fill it up, I put the packet there ready to open. +Don't knock your tea over +I shan't +have you done it? +yes +you know what's happened in to get in free er this was around there +oh they were cos he got a guarantee slip with it +do you? +yes oh you bound +get in free now +that's why it was a bit difficult at first to break down +are they gonna give it us then, when they've got it? +of course they don't silly, they made about twelve pounds or they were, I don't know what they are now +I seemed to remember, you know when my school was about +mm +I seemed to remember he had one and put it at the back of one of his chairs, and +I don't remember +there's something on the radio and I were commenting on it and then he all of a sudden he played it back, oh, er, it was about then probably +oh, oh I know that +probably not as good as +no there not the same sort they were bigger a few years ago, I wonder he's getting on? +probably dead, most of the people we know are dead aren't they? +well you know Gillian the couple who lived next door who went to live at Burnley ? +mm +she kept in touch with them for some time but er, I've not seen her for a year so, I wouldn't know. +I feel hot now, do you? +No I'm just right +shall I put this fire out? +yeah, alright +I shall get too hot +we shall all end up in the same place +mind you, not that I'd lite, the fire, not the glow that's what you did one night put the +yeah +out +yeah if er +and er left the fire on all night, oh +if, if there's any thing after life do you reckon Hitler's managed it? +no, doubt it. +Well if Bill had come today +mm +if we'd of asked Bill I don't think he would of liked to of come +he would of come, yeah +not in the frost +or George for that matter, it was +I'll ring him up today +okay I, I get forecast +well that's what I said to you, but we didn't want to er visit again this weekend did we?, with last weekend +no +having Madge and Tom +well Tom's his own, he can come one day if he wishes +yes, but I was gonna say er, he wouldn't of come any way in the fog +no he doesn't seem bothered about electrics does he? erm tapes and things +he doesn't do the electrics +tapes and things +well I don't know, he's got a, a record player +oh +that it, well he, that his son Phil taped +tapes them for him +tape them well tape them for Marg, I don't suppose he's done any since Marg died no +mm +they bought it for Marg when she was ill and Phil taped you know a lot of his records and some of Marg he'd got and that was it I suppose that's what sort Bill plays now. +why he didn't +You can fill my tea up +he didn't, he didn't seem to me to be er a mus +not too much sugar +a musical sort of chap, does he you? +well I think he likes never give him a, a chance when he's here +why's that? +too much gabbing +that so +never stops talking I want it filling up, not washing up +what you say? +I want the cup filling up, I thought you were washing them up +no I was washing the +no I want, I want another cup please +I think I'd sooner see Angela Rippon, Those Were The Days, don't you?, on Sky +Mm what you like , your choice +This is a nice cup of tea +About time I finished that saw in't there? +I thought it was finished +well perhaps +linked it up and used it +but its too cold to go in the garage now +it is really. +you know that back door key, I seemed to remember picking a key up thinking it was the garage key +oh +when I went in for the steamer +you perhaps took it in there then, for +and then I found out it was the back door key +mm +and, and the garage was unlocked so I didn't bother, I probably put it down when I got the steamer out of the cupboard +mm, I'll got and have a look in a minute +well you needn't go in the cold, I've got a spare one in the drawer . +Was that one of the book's you got out on Friday? +mm +cos some of them are getting +ah, well better take them back after a while then +no, you needn't, needn't take those you got out last Friday, its the earlier one's of which will be due next week I'm sure cos they've put up the prices now, its about ten P every day you have them out. +The thing is there's millions of books and you don't see all that many people +well, don't you remember I had to pay one pound fifty something last Christmas +still I suppose you've got to pay the assistant +well it comes out of the Poll Tax, we pay enough of that oh yes there's a +a +no er a hair lip, Mrs I think her name is no the lady Mrs +didn't know she'd got one +well she did have one it, she's had an operation, but er, I, she manages to go to the post on a Sunday afternoon, she must write to her sister in Australia, which makes a little round trip, a bit of exercise that's what you ought to do more of +what? +walking keep you fit its a bit you had a hair cut last week if you'd of left, if you hadn't of had it done you could of taken this thing down to +with you and recorded that +oh no +once he starts, its something +you'd soon get into some arguments down there wouldn't you? +yeah +telling a tale +I generally enrol +yeah, I know you do I know +our Mike said you can't beat it, I, he said Cathy's doing look he says Cathy's up there start +walked away +she does nearly five +where's the nail clippers? +should be there on the side with the vase +no there not +and in them +no here they are, I know I've seen them somewhere on the window sill +you shifted them +I haven't shifted them, in't it a mucky day?considering all that frost and cold you've got a lot of families out in the front door there ain't we?have you got any tapes of ours not finished off?, or have we got to start a new one? +I thought there was a little bit on one that you hadn't finished +mm, might very well have a look +start a new one though if, if +you mean out of these? +no of ours +oh +you were going to record Palmer Court weren't you? +well you said don't do it unless +you can do Palmer Court at four, till half past and half past four its erm +yeah, well in't it the same as the other one? +I don't know, you'll have to see, I mean switch it off and +they might play a record you see, might'nt they? +well you'll have to see what it is +well I can't till I've tried out one we've got +well I know what's on there, it won't be the same, its not, it won't be the same songs or items, will it?, they don't repeat their repertoire their, there not different items I mean if we did and it was a repeat you could always wipe it out, put something on top, couldn't you? +Have all the birds gone? +They went a little while ago, apart from that they never came on this end +well yesterday the black bird was there and they ate till late, I think, I think they roost in that er holly bush +possible, I suppose it, the waters always there and they've got a wall at the back +mm and that I, I think they do and the robin and the, that one starling and the thrush, I think they all roost there cos they seem to be about every time you throw stuff out I just remembered Tom's father worked at er, the electric company +mm +in London B T H or G E C, I remember he told us that the last time you know because he wasn't called up in the war he was reserved. +Ooh can you see the fog now swirling about, look at it +ooh +you look, its all swirling about +mm its getting thick in it? +mm +nice to see the front clear +yeah it is, kept the kids in today +seem to hang around here like a magnet don't they? +well +you never see them across the other side +yes you do, you don't always see them, what have you done with your glasses?, oh, I thought you might be sitting on them again +have you thought about a holidays? +yes, I shouldn't mind going away in a few weeks, if, if +mm +it looks like being a nice +would you like a change from Wales then? +I wouldn't mind going on a bus tour again +mm, what to France? +no, well I wouldn't mind going there, but, I meant for a first holiday, a little holiday I mean you enjoyed that did last April didn't you? +yeah, its nice in your own car though in it? +I know, but you don't have the hassle though in those buses do you? +only hassle if holiday, big holiday is when everybody's +ooh I don't know +we got to Wales quick enough that Sunday didn't we? +oh yeah, yeah +so see the thing is if you wanted to go, see, that Sunday half way we did didn't we?, don't you remember we had to cross the road? +mm +if you put that on a worse bit, but you could and that +well you get, get lots, lots of stops don't you? +you won't like it very much if you +yes they do you have lots of stops +yes, but none are appropriate +yes they do +there are twenty aren't there? +no +some days they've been about four ah? +well it was like till nearly five the other day +I expect had enough sitting around wanted to get back to the bit like mews +like mews +well it can't be very pleasant sit up there +no +all day, every day, can it? +no well get plenty of food any how. +Have you given them all those potatoes? +Well I crashed them up and its er, it ain't, I made sure those two slices, but they didn't touch them. +I think they've gone off potatoes a bit +well you've +about any way, so +any way I've only got enough for about two +its not only children's programme, the young chap said to the bird expert which is the best er potatoes or bread?, oh he says potatoes every time +mm +see bread has salt in it doesn't it?, still potatoes do don't they? +expect they do, well you always add some potatoes, salt to the potatoes, but er, I've only got enough for about two days +oh +so, the weather had better improve, I'll just have to buy some more from the milk man +what bread? +potatoes I'm talking about +oh I'll got across the Co-Op for me paper in the morning and get the potatoes from the shop no problem +I know, but there not very good there, about three times as much +yeah, well why ain't they any good then? +well those people have them in stock for a long time +they seem to sell them don't they? +I don't know, most people buy them in bags today, those in, those across the +mm +Co-Op the other week were horrible +how many have you got, another day? +I've got about enough for about two days, might be three +that's alright then +I should think the weather will change before then +mm, er, got a bit of revert back to the nice +I've not heard the forecast today have you? +that's +no I doubt it, its +well I've had, had a little of +oh I had to switch it off it was no good, it was all political wasn't it? +mm , give it time I mean its talk, talk, Churchill said jaw, jaw, but you can have too much jaw, jaw, can't ya? +Did you read that er a bit about him? +the documentary that their going to put +yeah +which will, it'll be interesting you see, listen +says you won't like and then +well he was a bit of a slave driver I mean every body +yes, yeah +knew that he was a bit bombastic +mm and he didn't do so well in his college days did he? +ooh he wasn't very bright +yeah +or he didn't try, well he didn't have a very happy childhood did he? +no in those days +well you didn't try when you were at school, you told me yourself +no, I didn't bother and next to me +I mean a lot of it depends on, or perhaps his par well if his parents didn't really bother about him +mm +he said his mother didn't and then I don't suppose +well my mother were out working and my dad was non existent +and then I suppose er in those cases like yours children don't er, unless their sort of erm pushed a bit or the parents show an interest in them +oh you know the Meccano things? +mm +try to that there was a clip on it, but +mm +he bought me one for me Christmas, he came at,lo you know, loader with er, what's that in the bar, loader with erm +I don't +when Jesus were born?, any way, this thing clicked on and er, it, I, showed me how to do it and I ain't got the strength, of course the war was on and there was er people were borrowing cups of sugar and er, probably, any way I couldn't clip it, he says oh he said to er mum, oh he says they clip on easily, but I couldn't +well your finger isn't +the next then we moved from Archlin Lane to Founder Lane, where next Christmas I had Meccano that could screw with screws +mm +mm I told you about Bill wanting it +yeah +and then after Christmas dinner I built this windmill and mother and I liked it and he said well its only screwed together, I nearly said well you wanted it any way, see, he wanted it and yet cos I got it, it were, any body could have it +any body could do it you mean +well that's the same thing in't it? +what time is it?, is it time to put that radio on? +what that, three, four minutes oh you can put it on if you like +well just try it and I'll tell you what, I don't know him +er, rather throw suspicion that +it won't be the same +its the same thing +it won't be the same songs, radio two +what, what I could do I shall put these on and see what it at, starts and quickly put +no, its, its, Palm Court, we want to see Those Were The Days at four thirty +mm +just try this Palm Court see if its worth recording +well its +its not on until about two minutes past +well I can get it ready now +two minutes past, because they have two minutes of news I think +they we are +Those Were The Days was quite good this week +Yes very good, is it working? +Yes I think so, didn't you like it today? +yes +didn't know about that fish, did you? +well I've read, I seem to remember something about it +I mean you've gotta remember all those years back all those things can you? +mind you for yea , when old Charles's said we crawled out the sea +yes but it seemed a bit far fetched, if they said that +but any then look at it like this +if that's been caught now why hasn't that changed +well it's the stoppage in evolution +well in sixty nine or whatever +but, er, you look at it like this then, if we didn't crawl out of the sea and er evolve then did we just appear like a flash of lighting +no, no I'm not saying that we did, we did evolve +oh +but +we must evolved somehow +why hasn't that fish that they caught recently evolved? +yes, well I used to read a lot of story books, travel avidly and I think I forget all about the author and the story, but I remember one portion where they discovered a depression in the middle of a continent where it was in excess of and they'd grown quite a different specie +of what men? +the human , human's, you know I know it's only a story +I know several stages I know that +eh?, but er +I mean there were several stages before they got to present day man, but +yes, but they do know,le let's go back a bit further, but they do know at the beginning of the world most of it is water +yes +so it's quite feasible +oh it is +if, if, if it was three quarters water er human's must of been in the water to start with +well not human's, but +well whatever we comes +antecedence of humans, mm I don't know +I mean we've still got a barren at the back, somebody kicks you at the back on that barren and er in the skeleton that's exactly like the barren in a monkey's tail +mm +so at one time the theory is we our, we did have a tail +mm yes, but we didn't have a tail in the sea then did you? +and then another thing you got +fish don't have +fin finger nails, well surely millions of years ago they were claws +possibly +then you've got your two prominent teeth, they could of been the tiger's two teeth +mm +and then there's another theory with your feet, you know that bit of skin between your toes, they claim that was web at one time +well isn't, you don't know much of +not know, of course there's a, wears away with lack of use, but when you're in the water you want web feet because there +yeah +the water I'll go through your fingers +mm, mm +this, this skin here +yeah I know that +it's not pronounced in mine , but, some er they say that with where it's gone away, you know, there's all sorts of things that can prove it I mean the obvious thing is we came from somewhere didn't we?, we didn't just drop here with a flash of light and er they've studied plants and other animals and they evolved. +Yes, but plants evolved with men's, man's +I hope that they, they had had on their own for +a million years, the plants did +I don't know, probably several hundred million years mm, can't really understand them can you? +well, you'd go mad if you tried wouldn't ya?, like that man said the other week, er, you, human's invented god, well they did didn't they? +mm, did you take that tape out in the other room? +yeah, to cut, cut a in that +oh did you know +and the other thing +do you know where it is because it in't in this +yes I left it there to call off +oh I see +well if I've left it there to call off I'm not gonna put it in the case and shove it away +well I know, well you want to label it so you know what's on it just reminding you, you say, oh you'll say you didn't remind me to write it down +yes cos you always right, you remind me at the wrong time and the wrong thing +no I don't +yes you do oh I was gonna say something, you put me off now +mm, I'm always putting you off, I put myself off you don't concentrate. +well you're alr the, point it's greater the things they find it, that er three quarter of the world were water once +yes I know, you said that, you going to have the Antiques Roadshow at +and then there's another thing, yeah, if you like, another thing Evelyn, you know when they give these rock,foss fossils out of rocks +yes +big sand stone rocks, they find things that fish today er had, had got other pediments that million years back, same thing, but not, not, not the same as they are today, you know, well they must of got hold of it to be different from a million years ago +mm +those shell fish things they're always on about in they get out the rocks +five thirty Antiques Roadshow on B B C one, it's in Cleethorpes +ten minutes then +huh, from Cleethorpes I shouldn't think they'd get much from there, oh they might get some ships might they? +yes don't +they might get, erm +true, then there's another thing about religion I've often wondered, they say you go to heaven don't they? well, so well +well, no +no, but some sort of place, well when, when you look at these pictures now, the satellites been going twelve months, still going through +two or three years +well where's heaven then in all that lot? +no +and how'd, how'd ya get there when you're dead? +well you don't, that's just +well then, why do they carry it all on? +well they don't really so much today, people +yes, but you talked, listened to a parson on telly, he's convinced what he's saying true, yet it's only what he's been told in it? +mm +with all this killing of children and that and burning them alive with flame throwers, what, what if this higher, high of command, why don't he interfere +there isn't +he did in my case +what'd ya mean?, huh +well wait in the Cathedral and out +and prayed +and prayed, when you left me +don't be silly didn't really leave you you were just being stubborn weren't you?, still are. +Did Ken a member of church he didn't did he? +Ken, no, no he always went, not church, chapel you know he did +oh did Tom leave? +no me dad used to say he was an atheist when he was courting Madge +oh they don't, he don't believe in it now I don't think +and yet, yet, the children went to chapel +mm +come +but I mean I went to a church school +well probably Madge, Madge sort of +well obviously they were going to teach me religion weren't they? +in a church school, yes. +but you know the breaking up day for the summer holidays and Christmas +mm +the vicar used to come and sit at the back and, you know, they used to do a little turn, you know play in the bands +mm end of term +wanted that old , is it, the rag and bone people, you know, rubbish, and er I suppose somebody taught him and er he, he played in that and er you know did the little towns and the vic the vicar used to come and sit at the back, a seat under against, under the window and watch, perhaps he thought he'd er get some little co +well I expect if it was a church school they had to put in appearance odd times . +er, yes . +No Madge, Madge must of sent the children to chapel +mm +I don't think Tom probably approved, but she well actually when they used to come to us on Sunday I used to take them to er, to Belver Fall me and David, Thelma's husband and he's er, his father was a superintendent so, do you want any tea? +er, only ice cream if there's any +yes, you didn't have any yesterday did ya? +not bothered about it really +yes, there's plenty of ice cream, do you want it now? +no any time +later do you want any cake?, sandwich? +no it's just +I've got some ham +after Christ after Christmas pudding and chicken thank you +I know, but years ago you always used to have a big tea and supper +yes, so now were all digging and sawing and +I mean I, I know you're not doing any thing very active, well nobody is this time of year, but still, I've got some nice ham +no, still full up from the last +still full up +almost if I'd ate it you know, about half an hour ago +yeah, perhaps about seven, mm, or no? +this had a cup of coffee you know and +cocoa I've always liked it +yeah, yes I mean cocoa or summat like that +before the war +during the war, didn't you have any supper? +not really, no +oh you always used to have +yeah, they gave you high, what they called a high tea +oh +their high tea, weren't bothered about high tea, but still, er then, they'd have, they might have a supper because she ain't been a work, their elderly, they perhaps have a good tea,the they, they went to bed at nine and they said if I was reading something, they said, you know turn the gas out when you come up and, there you are well you can see, if one landlady gave me egg for me lunch that I hadn't had, they not, they weren't gonna feed you up at supper time were they? +no oh you didn't stay there long did you? +no, about three month's, just decided to run then the cafe on the corner to cof coffee cavern, well you, you can drop in have a, like you used to have in +yes, like wings +and it about five minutes, five or ten minutes before we left off, actually been doing a great, getting a machine in Jack , we dropped in there for a cup of tea and er I goes in +two pints, two pints of beer before lunch mind you times were hard, that's why I didn't bother having any thing, I always went home weekends and got stocked up and every thing, every other one we got boarders in +mm +and it were a little, like +mm +do you remember it like +yeah +London weren't it? +yeah, well not quite like London, but it was +only +not a little market country town, village more or less. +Cos I washed them, took the things out +Took them all out? +yes, do you want any more wine? +no I'm alright +biscuit and cheese? +no, nothing +you said you wanted some later +no I didn't , the ice cream, did have a cake +d'ya want a coffee? +I had a cake didn't I? +I've got a coffee made +are you having coffee? +mm +okay then +doing, or did doing, they did for some purpose didn't they? +is that hurting again? +what we +mm +the red lights on, should it be? +yes, while the switches are down +oh +that is always on the telly that's er, that's a good programme that +oh yeah +You've Been Framed isn't it?, it gives you a bit of a laugh +wonder what the weather's going to be like +er, lets have a look +did you get the eight o'clock news? +no, oh you can on sky +see if that cars gone +no, no there's +is there another one there? +there's er one outside our place, one on the drive and one on the front +what on, on our gates? +no, not on, they're not blocking our way +oh +there's two, +mm possible, of course that one could be some way for Jackie's +yes +couldn't it? +but there's right up the road there all cars +but the Asians got his on the drive hasn't he? +yes, but there's two more on, on his front, another one on our front +er they're either having a party or erm +oh well they're celebrating the collection for his garden +,, oh I've got a bit of a chest, coffee? +its that sort of weather +do you want coffee? +yes please +any thing in, else? +no, its that sort of weather isn't it? +just give me this glass, no I think that was a good programme +yeah, made a change didn't it? +mm +I think some of them +would you like something nice?, what can I have? +not tonight +to eat +not tonight there's +I mean to eat, what can I have nice? +what you did +oh I don't know, I've put the coffee on +sounded like +mm +shouting let me know he was there +I want to see er, Glenda Jackson later on +oh she got sq +I like her +square face +who says she's square face? +she is +she's not +she could be +not er not Glenda Jackson, Judy Dench, Geoffrey Palmer +she's about the same +no, no they're, they're nice, good actress is that on about eight thirty five, so that's er not too bad. +Now don't I've got to go and get that coffee else it'll be boiling over +what's tape thirty five? +what do you mean tape thirty five? +you said tape thirty five, Judy Dench +that's I said its at eight thirty five. +See if its sweet enough, I'm not putting much sugar in and I can't carry both in, I daren't carry any thing in with me left arm yet +Its a bit hot +Well put it down on the table for a minute then. +Will you sort out er what pull overs you want washing tomorrow +oh I don't want any done +well I don't know, there seems to be about four or five +about +about, so I'm sure some of them might want washing +its not the right day for pull overs any way +it is with me spin dryer +oh +I mean nothing gets dry outside this time of year oh there's not much taste in this coffee is there?, do you think so? +well its a bit er +yeah the ol +what's a name a bit blanche, no that's not it, a bit erm +bland is the word you're looking for +bland , that's it, bit bland +oh that Dutch coffee was too strong, now this seems to weak, or I didn't put enough in I think I'll clean, put that filter stuff in tomorrow +mm +might make it better +that table never come loose again did it? +no, no its kept I thought it might when you put the Christmas tree on it +oh I er, that's what Peter send cos that's full of soil that erm +I mean the only er, look, make look flimsy don't they? +mm +those old tables in the Antique's Roadshow +yes +almost worth ten thousand pounds +yeah +and yet underneath was all +mm +you didn't see it +dried +no, sort of rusty nails not +mind you its one thing saying +screws, but its +its worth and getting it, in it? +well, I don't know I think some value seem a bit high +mm +do you want a chocolate biscuit with that? +not particularly, not after that cake +I've not had any cake tonight +its filling in't it? who's is it Madge's? +no its mine, oh, oh yes that's, that's Madge's cake yes we eat it, we eat my one there's not much left. +What we doing tomorrow? +What I always do on a Monday +washing +washing and ironing and cooking and cleaning +and shouting at +ooh you get rowed too quickly you do +I don't accept er fools gladly +I'm not a fool +its you who, who gets all up tight +yes you did +that's what +well you get all aerated then, if things are not quite right, you ain't got much patience with some things +I set up the and I like how its done +no you don't +until you come along and upset the apple cart +you just dream a lot +you get some weird ideas about +no I don't I know I'm not very mechanically minded, but +huh, you, you know how many +I can fathom things out eventually +you know that twice two are four, huh +mm, you never listen to people and then you think you can just pick it up by deduction +instead of just obeying instructions you just say well that should go that way and that should go that way and to me that's immaterial if you just see it going, see it, if its working that's it, know where the tops and bottoms of it all I mean I see +that won't that's obviously of won +she, she was, no , I don't see why they had her on last night, terrible I mean I couldn't even tell what +that er +that song, she or tune she was supposed to be singing +you know in, erm +phew +oh, er, oh John's Wood, you know that film where the lad played er, sang didn't he? +where who sang?, +Al Jolsen with the boy? +in that film with Al Jolsen +yes er , as boy +he had a boy on, it was boy on, on the front of +well he was a boy +the cinema +yes +well he lost his voice and he started whistling didn't he with his +mm, mm +with he, he, I mean he could of beat er, it, couldn't he? +well they must of had a profe really good whistling mustn't they but why they brought her on last night I think she was hopeless +that's what I mean if they'd had a good whistler he kept instead of her, couldn't he? +That man with that ten thousand table, apparently he said he use it nearly every day +yeah +he, it opened out +yeah +into a beautiful card table and, with the pockets +yeah +and er he said he used it every day he said oh er, now I know the value I shall have to tell my bridge pals +yeah, but that's what keeps +not to put there glasses +that's what keeps it why its kept so long then, then he said that +then he said I shall have to tell my bridge pals not to mark the +yeah +because you know in the corners there were wood +yeah +wood, inlay wood things, you didn't see it, to put the glasses on or cups of coffee, he said I'll have to tell them not to put the glasses or cups on there +but er, any thing that's put in the spare room and left, that's when you get wood worm +do you remember when you thought you'd got wood worm in our new table +and it was where they pinned the er, the, get the lips, the circle. +They even gamble, we were talking about and she says oh my wife knows all about that from where we come from, you know, live, live one like Random Street and which I suppose they had to get where they could, she come and looked at it and said oh that's one wear, said they're only four, four holes +they were pattern holes weren't they? +mm, but there was a bit er, you know where the legs moved? +mm +when it were made like the sawdust, some of that had got on our +and you thought that was them +that's what made me +you, you get to annoyed over trivial things, so I don't suppose you'll change at your age +probably not +drink that coffee, its gone cold. +when you think of this +mind its not in the saucer you'll spill that down you +when you think of these er music boxes like George's got and you see on telly +mm +but when it laying here and you look at this little box there, okay, with the real Doncaster +yeah oh yeah I see what you mean +see what you mean +yeah +they all sit round that Sunday afternoon wouldn't think it were +well it wasn't in those days that were a good programme on, on Court today wasn't it? +yeah, do you wish you'd like it done now +no we wouldn't have it on today, we'll have it on tomorrow, see how it sounds +I bet it don't work though +mm +I bet it don't work +even when I'm doing the ironing tomorrow morning. +Say you're gonna have an early night? +mm +I don't think, you see, you see what that films out in't it? +mm we've watched it +oh, er, well it, well that was, but I mean that's not gone back right has it? +don't know +you think it has, look you see there that's straight +mm, you probably bent it back when you fall, with all the pain and you, you ain't noticed it so much. +I know, I told him that was the only part that was hurting and he looked at it and said didn't +alright +say it was any thing to bother about +yeah, perhaps isn't, cos look at the pain in your frozen shoulder, its pain and yet its nothing broke is there? +no +disguise in't +I suppose it will come right in the end its taken a long while because look at that lump there +mm, yeah +look, can you see? +mm +shall I have a new wedding ring? +of course you can if you want one, you'll have to ask about it do ya?trouble though a cartoon ring will do just as well +you cheeky thing I've still got the other one, but it won't go on, but if I had erm +well maybe they'll expand it +no, if, what, where if you haven't got any gold? +well cut it through and open it and put a bit in +oh no I didn't +you've got plenty of old rings I can +I haven't got plenty of old gold rings +well you've got some rings can cut a bit off and put in +no no I think I'll have a new one, that's got very thin +any way I've looked at them +how much are they? +dunno +how much was that? +what? +can you remember my wedding ring? +my that's going back in't it? +only thirty thirty eight years nearly +the man was going for the engagement ring did do er high street +no, yes well we had the wedding ring from there, he's closed down now +why come out I thought myself I'm trapped +did you now? +I'm trapped, huh, now I feel +I wished I'd never known that +mind you I reckon my life would of been +well your mother was the wood there wasn't she really? +yeah, and when mother died what d'ya think my life would of been? +I dunno, can't see you getting on with Bill very much much +well they were always against me, well Bill was during the war, what I'd done to them, finished all the decorating, put shelves up, go on the slate to put his aerial up, he wouldn't go up, I had to climb out my bedroom window onto the gutter and its a wonder I didn't kill myself then, put his aerial up and +what, did you get a big ladder? +no, I climbed out of +oh +my bedroom window +oh +you know your bedroom window where mine was +yes I know, mm +it was a yard at the back, but, I climbed out and stood on the sides +that was a silly thing to do +and pulled myself over the gutter, it were alright getting up, it were getting back in +mm +and across the, er two yards the, a man and a woman were sit there watching me, hoping I'd fall I expect. +His aerial had come off the chimney +mm +want any more coffee? +when I was going onto the roofing that was Saturday before the Monday, he says we should +in case I couldn't do the job +mm +that were a very good send off weren't it for me? +mm +mind you there were times when were miles away we said er, we, we +your sugar was all at the bottom of your cup then +I suppose it was, well I think +its er its only eight o'clock +yeah, but I get up at five +oh you're not going to bed yet +well once in a blue moon do we have a late night?, not all that late at that +yes, but when we see when we have +mm? +what do we look at when we have like a most nights last I see that Argentina thing +you was, Jackie and Tony came in +mm +Jackie and Tony came round +but I mean, er last night +oh I see +so I mean in particular its alright if there's a good film worth watching, for that I'd sit up till twelve +yes, but you sleep you sleep through those mostly +sometimes +would you like a cam corder, or whatever they're called? +I don't, what for films? +like those video things +I don't even know what they are here, let alone talk about it +what, you did , you saw when we +what they hold on the shoulders +yes, what erm +and they take pictures what, with +what's er name's husband was carrying +like the old er movie camera with Kodak? +yes, similar, er you know next door to you, that girl +er wasn't that got that the +she'd, the husband had got one +Elsie had got, well that's +Elsie +that was a camera weren't it not a +it was a cam corder +oh it was moving +yes it was a movie picture, yes been showing here, because when she said she was blind, I thought well what's the good, but she said oh well, he, when he runs it through he sort of explains to, but he was using it all the time wasn't he? +mm I thought you meant something like this +no +no +there about what's it four or five hundred pounds +mm, I'd get two ladies for that +no you couldn't get two ladies, any way at your age what do you want a lady for? +well I don't know, but could do with it years ago +well you should of had one +I mean that's why I'm left with the cash, two hundred cash +no never thinks she'll thought any thing like that, well you could of bought one couldn't you out of that +I know I probably could of had one right from the word go +yes, but you're always on about it as if you wished you'd had a +well in the early days I only got er, what was, what was your, yours a quarter horse power motor wasn't it? +I dunno +oh one eighth horse power motor, well it drove that little lad, you know, that I, that, what I use now, but you see to have a big one +you wanted a bigger one? +wanted er like I've got, half horse +mm +well you see then I thought the electric running it you know +well +and, and er +you think too much +I thought well its +cos your drum of it instructor told you +eh? +years ago +can't have bloody +I said you think +can't bloody think er +no he was right that's what I say you thinking about that thing, this isn't just doing it as it said, you ponder +what might go wrong +no, on, on why should we be doing this way or that way instead of +just pushing it in and hope for the best +just pushing it in and and if it goes that's it, you, you want to question every thing +like we did last night +no we didn't +you're looking +no +better, do you feel better?, mm a nice pair of leg is it? +yes, I'm not too bad , no +sure just nice +don't you ladder my stockings, your +what's this here, you've had a +I know that, that's why its been hurting at night +you've caught it on the er +er, no I don't mean that the stockings me tights +that little +no oh there +squares you had a +oh yeah +hole there, or nail +oh, no wonder that's been hurting at night +its been, that has been blistering some time that, think its +have you been walked through the garden near the fire or any thing? +mm, might of done when I've gone to the dustbin +cos you haven't got any nails around there +mm I've caught, I might of caught it when I went to the dustbin +yeah +once or twice, or the barrel, and that's overflowing, you've not emptied it have you? +no, I was too busy ain't I? +no every time you go out to feed the birds you should take a bucket out +I could of finished that ship in the time we might of had +oh no you couldn't you'd not been messing with that all that long +poor old Cath, she, she doesn't know where she caught it, I bet she thinks she caught it her mother +well you just catch these things , no she didn't got to Madge's when they got the +she did she went on talking through the letter box to them +not to Cath, no he went in the porch, he'd only go in the porch to Audrey and tell Audrey not to go in +because Audrey cut his things easily, the cabinet went +no, its just in the air, I mean, if its going around you don't want to catch it, you catch it not going out any where, and the milkman probably, yeah +and what your dad had set for, for all this and +he'd of liked the horse racing on T V +I bet he would, yeah and the cars. +and the car to take him around, well though he liked to walk in a way, when he was younger any way. +Didn't he lean on the window sills towards the end? +Yes he did +quite yours +well you do that's like your, I've seen your Bill he walks like your dad did +mm +when he was not still +do you reckon he enjoys his life? +who your Bill? +mm +well he probably has his er, he's got a +married now +his music thing hasn't he?, he likes music he likes to be on his own , ooh that nails sticking in if you trim your nails properly +you tell mother when I were fighting for me country, he ain't got a bloody scratch on him now +do you hear me washer still going? +yes its just changed over and its started off +oh I know when I've got a lots of, if I do one lot tonight +you'll get it all done is it still raining? +mm, I shall er get the other lot in and do that, do that first thing in the morning, get every thing cleared up, and then if you give me your pull overs, I can hand wash those and put them in the spin drier so you'd better sort them out do you think you'd of put some tassels in that pelmet?, you know where the I've got some spare one's no, don't you remember I went into and he gave me a piece of the trimming and I can take the tassels off +and stick +and push them through that loop, it looks +oh bit +a bit hard +bit of Araldite just on the end of the thread is +no you don't I don't mean glue on +Araldite will stick any thing +did you hear Jackie had to send her new curtains back +mm, Tracy said +and she had them from May Porteswell. +I bet, I bet the plain poor people wanting them for Christmas wouldn't bother to send them, well she kept them for over Christmas. +Well it getting difference now here with most things, I mean now, er none of the shop keepers are sa , like they were very helpful in our day weren't they? +oh some of them are now +oh I expect there is, but not in general +well I dunno, they ought to be even more now that fighting, er supposedly fighting for business +yes you're not gonna tell me er eighteen year old girl today compares with an eighteen year old girl in your mother's day +well, they wouldn't be making curtains, I don't think they could +no I mean er they went, they did assist didn't ya in a shop +well some do today, er especially if they're on commission, perhaps they bother and try to sell you things you never really want +I know that Iron mongers at er, near mo er Chequers Road, you know, where I used to go in and there were +down from the top of the steps to the path, just what I wanted +well that's a, that was a good little shop isn't it? oh I've been there lately +it was, its still er +yes you was +nobody went, dear old Maisie went to all that trouble +she's a very old +yeah what they do now if its, if its not within sight they say we haven't got any thing +no, well they come all in packets now don't they? you have to buy a packet +yeah I suppose +five, when you want six so you have to buy two packets +mm +that's a gimmick isn't it? +mm +five in a packet +yeah +of screws and, and odd screws no good, so, mostly is it, so you have to buy two packets +still its always handy to have one or two as spares +I don't know, you've got a great big tin full of screws and nails and you, you still have to go and buy some +well I found the, I found those hook and eyes for your picture +yeah, but you want one that's closed up don't ya for that picture +I mean what's in the pa picture itself +I know but, but you want, you want, really want one with a closed hole, you've got it +well they are in the picture, but not on the wall +oh is that it? +you take a lot of convincing +no, but one side, one sides not +sometimes +cos it was coming up when Tom fetched it down, not closed up +oh this one was +should be yeah and that was the one +oh it only wants pinching +yes I know it wants pinching in the eye +well, its, its high any, its +I know, well +and, and that, that's not closed up whilst you wouldn't get it on +well that's I know you don't want that closed up well you do +well, if, if +wanna picture +if one's like it the other's like it as long as that's hanging there untouched there's quite, quite safe, I mean weren't worth it +perhaps if I were dusting it might +well don't you dust any way, you shouldn't dust glass, image that why should you? +well you should wipe the outside of the frame didn't you? +er, yes, like, you like just flick round it +oh, did you find that thing with the anchor on? +no I looked for +you know that , I'll tell you where it is +mm +you know that figurine in the bathroom? +oh that one that were sit, that +the bathing lady I reckon its on there +I I see +you have a look when you go up +I could of swore we'd had one somewhere +yes I could of had I'm, I think its that bathing lady in the bathroom +mind you it might be a hard thing to give away or sold in it? +no I don't think I've sold any of them erm, any way its probably not genuine +no I suppose, it could be painted on couldn't it?, they never bothered with these lady did they?, cos its modern in't it, modern made +well its all repaired isn't it? +oh they wouldn't know that +yes they do, experts know whether its been repaired +he never picked it up to see, just looked at it +well he knew we didn't mean to sell it better do some of the ship tomorrow, where's the, look you had one of the masts out, where is it? +there +oh I thought you used it to get +can't remember +lost it +can't you buy it +I remember you had them all in line +three , three foot long pieces on the bench +no but you've got them all in island right high you don't +well you +have to do it, you haven't +you want something quick for that didn't ya? +mm, I've forgotten +and me being a great innovator +oh, mm +rob Peter to pay Paul as usual +yes that's all the time same as my cupboard door in the kitchen will it take you long to repair that? +repair what? +that cupboard door in the kitchen +no +that's in the shed +no +mm? +no, its all there very much seeing to it +I know it wants seeing to, but, how long is it going to take? +I rather like it open actually +well I don't +huh, huh, huh +keeps the dust out +I feel tired, I do, tired, that's not performing is it? +yes +er, that's a blow +why oh dear +you're leaving it like that then? +yes leave it on for, finish it off +mm +what time is it?, is it eight thirty five yet? +twenty past +no +twenty past +I wonder if that washing's done, let's have a look, I have to go out in the shed and get the erm no its not er, its not finished yet +that's not is it? said that +no you looked at that +that's a six in it? +you go and have a look at that one in the bathroom any way he looked at that mark, so if it was any thing +yeah, probably sell that as well +if it was any thing he'd er +he'd of said +and made an offer for it +any way I'd sooner see it wants to get +oh I wouldn't sell that +you wouldn't get one like that today +I wouldn't sell, sell it +would ya?, where would you get it?, get one like that? +you go and have a look at that one in the bathroom +Well didn't, when was that? +Mm, mm +oh no its straight after You've Been Framed +Poirot I seemed to know erm +Poirot, that er +French man +detective, Belgium with a moustache +mm +mm, yeah +I'm sure this picture on last week's +well it might of been on Radio Times, but +mm +but I, I doubt it +see if there's any thing on, before we go to bed +I'm going to see this eighty thirty five, As Time Goes By +oh dear +its only half an hour so if its not any good in half an hour, its neither here nor there is it? +the look jealously and obsession +well, no, that's not it +oh +your reading the wrong one, that's it +Have you seen that one? +Mm, at eight fifteen and we've missed half, half of it. +Its a pity we can't get any body else, er, to be here what with the flu and, in it? +mm? going on +I've dittoed you for why +mm? +I've dittoed you for why, mm is there any thing you fancy?, look at tomorrow's pick +tell you what,re rescuing wild, fight against poachers on Wild Life +where? +gone last night, I didn't see that +well you were probably looking at er +something else +You've Been Framed +Defence of the Wild seven o'clock,folks on men and women who dedicate their lives protecting the worlds, the worlds wilderness +oh we've seen too many of those main forest ain't we? its always on +fighting in Juventous +look at that, its still a lot swollen in't it? +mm +look +mm +there and there +a bit puffy in't it?, mind you it is a bit fatty looking in't it? +oh me wrist is, it's there in't it where its all swollen +mind you its not been all that long is it? +it has , about eight week's, must be er that sounds as if the wash has finished, you fancy any thing? +at eight thirty the comedy I don't know what that is +er no, I'm going to see that er eighty thirty five +mm, oh I'll go bed then while you see +you have the radio on if you don't want +yeah +don't you want to see it? +not particularly +I like her +she's the ugly one in't she? +no she's not I have a picture of her somewhere, she's nice him, his, there, there she is +oh she's worked two years at the Larkins +she's a Nottingham girl , yes its coming on, on er +oh pot luck +er toy, toy things that, Rolls Royce its a bit daft in't it?, four ninety five +er not +not the right size. +Aye but well it's the right size sort of thing it's, but it's er to double up with the picture you can't do it. +So you've just got to draw natural? +Well, well not being twice the size. +See twice the size, it wants twice say the it's nine inch and you want it twice the size the canvas wants to be eighteen inch doesn't it? +Oh it's not that big is it? +You see? +And er it's either, I think it's an inch and a quarter bigger than that. +So you've either gotta have a border and paint something in it or you know? +So that's what I'm working out. +There'll be east top and bottom superfluous to the er what I'm painting. +Well you can put a bit more in can't you? +Oh yeah, of course, fill it in. +Don't have to be exact. +I think it's worth having a chicken for the soup do you? +Aye lovely. +Bring the dead to life. +Yet people have tinned soup don't they? +And these youngsters, what do they do, you know these young brides? +Packet soup. +Course some can cook. +A lot of them have these erm deep freeze meals. +I never thought a lot to canteen meals. +Ours weren't bad. +That ti I was at er canteen at erm and I took my plate, I was there thre two or three days and she says you're the only one that's ever brought the plate back. +Perhaps they thought you wanted seconds. +Rice pudding do you want after that? +Mm. +Bit late today aren't we? +If you did it years ago they used to have a man in the lounge, only in the lounge +Oh +you always paid a bit e extra and he'd er fetch your glasses and bring another one. +Mm. +I think those days are gone. +And I, I, I di took it back once myself and he says that's my job . +Ah! +Well there's not much on telly this afternoon is there? +No. +Nothing you fa there's plenty on but nothing +Well that's +you like. +No I'm going to rest after this meal. +Ooh I shall er do Countdown at four thirty. +Mm. +What are you going to do, go back to your drawing board? +Oh probably not. +No? +Fed up with it? +Well no but erm I've got on well, I've got the paper draughted fairly well and +Jackie's back. +Mm. +Did you say somebody called but perhaps they had a key though, I won't say anything to her, they might have had a key. +No. +A white van came, chap got out, you know, I never sh I di I didn't look to see if he come back. +Oh well +But he, he, he, he, he'd gone shortly after. +Oh. +Whether he couldn't get it in I don't know. +She has been letting them in hasn't she? +Well leaving them a key or giving them the key to get in. +And it, now she's got to have the curtains replaced and I wondered if it was him who'd come +Mm. +and +They don't have things on the van now do they? +Saying who they are. +Not all of them. +Still I got all the washing and ironing out of the way thank goodness, it's not bad now is it? +No. +Er are you going to get the car out to get the wheely- bin out? +The morning isn't it? +Comes about seven. +Yeah I, I shall be up. +Well you might not be. +You might you might forget . +Shouldn't lay there too long. +Well it's up to you isn't it? +But they were there about seven the other week. +I know we're always up by then but you never know, we might s be a bit late +But it's always +and not get up. +It's half +it's always +it's nearly full this week. +I was gonna say it's always half empty. +Ah no well it's nearly full, and there's that big carton in the shed to put in. +It's too big to keep isn't it, that big flat one. +That big oblong one, put that in it, get rid of that. +Well you do get aeriated though when you're trying to do a new job don't you? +I don't suffer fools gladly +I'm not a fool, it's you who's the fool . +The simplest little thing. +Do you want any more soup on there? +Yes but you won't be told, I mean +Oh! +to me, electric, the plus always goes to plus and the minus to minus, you can't mix them up. +Well I know you can't. +Do you want any more soup with that erm potato, those veg? +There's +plenty left, well not plenty but there is some, do you want it? +No, the bit that's in the thing, there's plus and minus stamped but on the back there's but you assume, you assume that there's +well it's the other way round well of course you do +Well +you turn it the other way round, everybody knows that. +You didn't, you were +Yes I did! +You wanted to put them upside down. +So I, when I proved to you it didn't work you were satisfied. +You were going with the picture on the outside, well that's fatal. +You wanna go plus and minus don't you?batteries, see if there's anything +I don't know where I put them. +Was that anything? +No that's +Yes I know. +Do you feel warm? +I do, I've just taken my jumper off, haven't you noticed it? +It's the soup making you warm, and the wine. +Mm can't eat +Can't you eat any more ? +Well I want +Give it to the birds then. +I'm not going to have a sweet. +I think. +I'm gonna have a biscuit and cheese, just a little. +Come and have your pudding. +What do you think to the rice pud, is it do you want any more milk on there? +Yes? +Mm? +The top's a bit hard, the crust. +Oh. +That's having dinner a bit later isn't it? +Well your jam's soft in the middle isn't it? +Have you done all your washing? +Yeah. +It's all up in the airing cupboard. +Oh no I don't sit and think about it like you do with things. +Just get on with it. +There's nothing like forward planning. +Ooh you're the least planner I've ever known. +Or organizer should I say, you're the worst organizer I've ever met. +Well let's hope you don't meet someone +Have you got another bag of seed? +Have you found it? +No I had a look but erm +I knew you hadn't got him one you would argue wouldn't you? +Think we'll get it, got it Friday, this Fri +No you got one on Friday. +Couldn't carry two with not having the car. +And you reckoned then you'd already got one nearly full +box are in the toilet with a paper bag in there's a, where I used to put them and I've had a fair look but not sort of +I don't er I know you haven't got another one, I remember you emptying the first bag. +That's weeks back. +And I haven't got any stashed away. +Well we shall have to get some then if, when it's propitious. +You don't want to go this afternoon do you? +Not particularly. +Anyway you can't go in the car cos you've had some drink. +Go first thing in the morning. +P pigeons have been dying, not,no the one up on the top. +Well you don't want them to come if you've got no seed for them do you? +No. +Well there's all that stuff up meat and bread, one of them's gone there now look +Have they cleared that chicken off the roundabout? +I haven't been up there. +Didn't you look? +Oh I +No. +thought you went over there. +Thought you weren't putting any more cos of the cats. +Well if you go and pick the bones up. +You know, they were all round it just before, while you were drawing. +I'll go up and pick the bones up and it'll be alright. +Ooh I'm going to go and have a shower and a change and go in +the other room and have a rest. +eight hours sleep I should think. +Why did I keep you awake last night? +No, no. +Light. +Well I didn't sleep very well again. +Do you want a bit of this cheese, it's lovely? +No not really a cheese man. +I don't mind a bit on a biscuit on occasion but +Oh I thought you used to love cheese. +I used to like that Canadian red. +Well this is. +No this is Canadian white. +working on the stage musicals then weren't er if you'd not had your tea and you brought something the commissar would eat them. +Did you see that Joseph and His +Many Colours? +It's m m making a big hit again in London. +Well it is a good show isn't it? +Mm well it m ma er m made a big hit here didn't it? +Mm. +Well I suppose it's good for children anyway. +Well you see they've been brainwashed to that sort of music so they're bound to, bound to like it. +I know but it's not all that sort it's erm I mean you enjoyed it +and you don't normally like pop do you? +Say the children that when that, we saw it now what would they be, fourteen, fifteen? +No. +They've bound to go for it aren't they at that age. +They only like to listen to rubbish. +No they don't. +Why people spend good money to go and listen to that sort of stuff I'll never know. +Not the co Dream Coat, that's alright. +No, no +You liked it when you went to see it. +Yeah but you can't beat it with er can you? +With who? +! +Er nice er and that one we listened to this morning, the dance. +Lovely, you could listen to that three hours at a time. +Well some folk music you can can't you, that's what it's for. +Well and what do you reckon those are, now all those, would they have pop music? +Well times were different weren't they. +We lived in a gentler age. +Oh some, I have a sort of fee +finish that pudding. +I have a quiet feeling that this no reading and no a add up and all that stuff co co stems from the music they're always listening to. +No it's not, it's the teachers. +They walk by with headphones on don't they? +I know. +No a lot of it's these young teachers. +And probably the training colleges. +yes but teachers are like them aren't they? +They dress like, they dress +Well that's what I, that's what I mean. +like them. +Remember our teachers? +Yeah. +A dark suit and moustache. +Any more? +Any more wine? +No thanks. +And a severe +I'm going to have to clear up and go in the other room. +a severe expression and it wasn't put on. +It was built in. +We had screens on wheels in latter years at, last few years at school and er he used to go down to the tea room for a cup of tea half way down the stairs, the teachers' room and perhaps go toilet as well, and er the one at the back was a foot out from the screen and every now and then he'd have a look to see if he was coming and er we, what had had a big case with birds in and the lads who were doing it looked in this, saw the reflection and shh he's coming. +So er er after a bit you see he changed them round, he, he guessed somebody were and of course I got the job +I'm glad I'm getting rid of all the Christmas remnants. +I've only got one round case and about two vol au vents +I forgot about that. +so +Still you said you want it running d ? +Yes that's +understand what you're +Well I'm just getting it on the +Well Now have ten minutes with your feet up before you change. +Did you know? +What? +You dozed for about three quarters of an hour. +What ? +This afternoon just after +What were the birds doing? +Well they cleared all that chicken now I've picked all the bo +with all this +with all this you arguing and telling me I'm wrong when I'm right and right when I'm wrong. +No I'm not! +In fact I felt tired and when I went to change I er +Went on the bed. +No I felt like going on. +Oh if you'd shouted down I'd've g come with you. +Oh no you wouldn't. +No I didn't but I just changed and came down here and put my feet up here. +Yeah we're getting on now so +I keep going cold. +Somebody said in the paper shop that looking for the papers er I thought, I couldn't see any, I was starting to walk out I said have you finished with the papers, said no there they are in that cabinet +Oh they're always changing the position. +Yeah, some old girl in there I said you get like that at eighty two, she said you're never eighty two I said I am, she said well you look well on it. +I said yes I can rise to the occasion as well. +Well that's a silly remark to make. +Well I can rise to any occasion +Pardon? +woodwork, windows, anything. +Do you want a chocolate biscuit? +No, full up +Such as? +have to burn it up when you're Feels as if only just gone. +Well you know all the chicken bones? +Mm I see they cleared it out. +They clean oh, oh I've put all the bones in the er dustbin. +I see they cleared it all up. +And I didn't cut, you know I didn't cut it up, I just left it. +About another three weeks we should be out of the real winter shan't we? +Should be. +Although March can be pretty cold. +February. +February's usually the worst. +February you get wet snow and rain. +Mm. +Mind you don't burn that ch table. +Well you pushed the table nearer the fire. +It was, you left the back door open that's what's made it, the room cold. +How was your tea? +Very nice. +tea now. +Nothing to watch is there? +Well yes Some Mothers Do Have Them about seven thirty. +Yeah. +I'm going to have Countdown, I'm going to do Countdown. +Yeah. +Ke keeps your brain active. +We've got enough active there. +Keeps your brain active. +Yeah well use it on there then. +By the way is it er +It's still recording I think. +Might as well use this tape up and +Do you think I ought to finish the ship first of all or do the oil painting? +Well if you've got to go in the garage, it's too cold to go in there to finish the ship off so you'd better paint in the house hadn't you? +Well if I want to turn something I've gotta keep walking in and out and I don't wanna do that. +Well then leave that till warmer weather. +It's not ready for rigging yet is it? +Will you take that to Tom's or not? +Who? +Your Tom. +If we go tomorrow, yes. +We might as well use a tape up. +Do a pennorth do a pennorth of it can't you? +Perhaps Maggie's got some bright ideas of +I doubt it. +Cath I know who could fill it up, Cath. +Cath . +Well we've got to go round there if we're out to because erm we've still got Penny's +Well it'd show willing if we did get a bit of all on wouldn't it? +A few more. +I mean if, if they had,ha had nursery rhymes. +No don't be silly they just want vocabulary, they don't want things like that, they want to know a person's vocabulary a to cer you know, at a certain age. +I think the not doing very well with some sixteen year olds. +No! +Tim's got that lady friend. +I know he w she were on about a room weren't she? +No! +Why would Tim want to come and live here? +I didn't say he would but Cath might want him to. +No course she wouldn't! +Anyway Tim's paying a lot towards that house. +Mm. +You know he paid for it to be +Well that very much when you live there does it? +Well +Look what we pay +Look what we +And then the double glazing cost over a thousand. +Mm. +Glad we didn't have it then. +Well it is about, about a thousand for one bay window so she's had the whole house done so it's probably nearer three. +But can you honestly say you've been cold in this house? +No. +I've been in digs +Well where lots of people +I've been in digs where you went to bed and you've had to put your top coat on the bed. +Mm. +There are lots of people let the windows go and it was a case of either having new wood windows +Yeah or get glazed. +or, or paying the bit extra and have it double glazed. +Yes but you can't open your windows in the summer. +Well you can with double glazing, some +but you can have vents. +But while our wood frames are in condition +Yeah what sort of problem is it when you, say a kid broke the window like they broke ours, what sort of problem is it as opposed to these? +Well you get it done on the insurance, your insurance covers that. +I don't mean that I mean it w is it a bigger job or s +Well of course it would be. +Well then. +That, you take that into consideration an'all. +If you get it done on the insurance I don't suppose people worry. +There's always a debit side. +Anyway it's always er they're tougher than ordinary glass anyway, even if footballs do +Mm. +It's not footballs is it, it was er +Well stones or whatever. +it was a stone or half a brick. +Or even somebody who went berserk with a hammer, that's been known. +Oh yeah I know. +One thing they seem to be giving the skateboards a rest aren't they? +Mm. +I mean how wh er how the parents can let them +Yes, yes but, but it's not the time +come down three abreast I don't know. +of year for skateboards so you, that's no criteria is it? +No but why, how parents can let +Yeah. +let them come down three abreast +Mm. +and say that they've got, have every right to do it. +Well +Well you wouldn't say that if you got knocked down and broke your thigh would you? +Look at your dad, he died in three days. +No he didn't. +Three weeks. +Well three something or other. +Then there was your Aunt Nell, she, she broke her +Mm? +What'd you say? +I think it's a silly thing anyway sit o lay on that with your nose er two inches from the pavement +Well kids have different games don't they from +That's not games it's annoyance, it's just +I'll get it. +You go and get it. +It's annoyance value. +No I don't want any more. +that's what they do it for. +You go and get yourself another cup of tea then. +Before it gets cold. +Have you got some slippers? +Oh yes. +Look when they kicked the ball at , they could quite as easily kicked it at tree. +Mm aye. +Find me a bit of +You know if they wan wanted to rebound it. +scrap paper while you're out there. +Do they hurt? +They look a bit tight across +No slight they're very soft com +I know they're soft for the bedroom, take your cup! +I don't want any more, I've just had a chocolate and that's made me sick. +They're a bit sickly aren't they those chocolate w Don't you think so? +Yeah they're a bit too much +a bit too much int they? +I like, you know the old fashioned Fry's Cream, well Cadbury's used to make one like it only different coloured creams +Mm +and they were lovely. +Well I think we've only got one box of chocolates left. +The rest are chocolate biscuits. +Oh. +I like Cadbury's creams +Well you can't get Cadbury's cream chocolates now so stop harping. +Well there isn't anything for them if they hadn't gone. +Well it's not damaged the has it? +No I, I dead-headed them today, you were going to do it yesterday but you didn't. +So when I went to shut that gate after that +They themselves now. +No they don't, they just die then +Well I've seen them on the l lawn so that +Well it's where I've +Yeah it's like the wind and +clipped them off and the wind's blown the flowers from the corner. +Wh when I went to shut the gate after that man had left it open I er I went round and dead-headed them all. +I can't understand tradesmen, they come hoping for business +And leave your gate open . +and leave your gate wide open for the dogs to come in and, and tear your +Plants. +plants up. +Hmm. +But I mean i it's beyond belief innit? +If I wanted somebody to buy what I'd got I'd be scrupulous about that, wouldn't you? +Well it's the people they employ, probably, not the people who are who er +Do you, do you think +want the business. +well if it's er if it's kids say, you know, youths do they leave their own father's gate open like +They probably haven't got any. +I mean really when you look round here most people have taken the gates off haven't they? +Yes. +Oh w oh w er have to, up the top, you know those two she said why don't you take your gates off like us, I said why should I? +I said what do you have gates for if not to close them? +No point having a gate is there if you don't close it? +Well they do it because they're lazy. +They want to put their car, put, they want to drive +No +straight in with their cars. +it's deeper than that, they don't like what they see. +If they don't like what they see they spoil it. +Watch the children today. +And they'll get worse. +Is that somebody's alarm ringing? +It's a bit wet isn't it? +No. +No it's a bell. +You listen, you go to the front and listen. +There's er there's er somebody's alarm ringing across the road. +No nothing out there. +There is, I, I think it's two doors up +No. +where they had the burglaries. +Could be a gas van. +Oh they're all lit up across their car. +Yeah they do that now. +Put their lights on early. +No they keep open till eight. +You go to the front door. +You go to the front door but it's probably next door but one the alarm went, go to the front door. +It's not the fire. +Yeah but listen. +Can hear it somewhere but, still it don't make a difference does it? +Not really. +The lights have all gone. +Unless there's a van there +The birds are all gone. +loading stuff on something. +Well I've made a start in my painting it's +on only roughing it a bit, I've brought a canvas down so don't muck it about. +Where have you put it? +Just against your chair. +I'm gonna lay it on the +What in the dining room? +I'm gonna lay it on the board +Mm. +and er see how much I've got to, lay it down then +mm +Think it's about a inch top and bottom +What, too big or too small? +I sha well I shall have to put bi bit in the you know? +Well you can make the trees a bit longer +Well that's what I say, I shall put something behind it. +. +Ooh it's getting foggy over +Mm? +the trees are disappearing. +Over there +Mm don't say +near Ava's house look. +Oh yes. +I think we're gonna have fog and frost to tomorrow again. +But we'll have to go out. +No, well I've got my fog lamps on. +Oh I'm not going in the car in the fog. +Well I ain't going out on that Fox again. +Well we'll go on the corporation buses. +You were alright on the Fox on Friday. +I mean when they're full I've noticed when,we they were standing in the gangway. +We were the only two on Friday coming back from town. +Oh I know,w when we were going we, I stood in the gangway alongside you and I could see, as they were swaying, people were pushing onto other people who were sitting down. +Hmm! +Well you don't want that do you? +Well we'll go on the corporation, wait for a corporation you wouldn't wait for a corporation, I said wait, wait for the big bus. +I mean if we go, we're sitting on the outside and invariably they're a bit over into the gangway well if a chap kept pushing against us as the car went round corners it wouldn't be very nice would it? +Some might like it, some might object. +Well they wouldn't get on again if they objected would they? +But I mean it could've been made a bit bigger than that couldn't it, for the seat +Well the new ones are a bit bigger. +And there's nowhere to put your parcels, like you with +There is, the front seats. +you with a broken arm. +Well there is the fr a front +Aye,pu put wheelchairs in there don't they, for the kids? +Well not always, if you get yours in first. +And then there's there's dog dirt on the wheels and that goes on the, in th then that's +Oh don't be so +transferred to your shopping. +Your shopping's transferred it to the pantry. +Oh shut up! +You go to the pantry, get on your hands then you take it into the dining room +It's not, it's a good game. +It's alright for children. +It's alright for children. +No! +Grown ups do it! +Yeah, think you +It, it keeps your brain a bit active, you learn new words. +Martin's always said I've got a too active brain many's the time. +Well you've got too thinking a brain now some things. +How was our Cath? +You didn't put the kettle on did you? +No +You haven't left the kettle on, that's not whistling, no. +that's not what I've done. +You have, you've mashed the tea! +Didn't you go out and look? +No I didn't, I only went in the hall for that paper. +Lock the back door. +Arthur? +Tt have you locked the back door? +Eh? +Have you locked the back door ? +Yes. +Oh. +You can do a bit more to your drawing while I'm looking at Countdown, do you want to? +Yeah, put the table up then. +Oh! +Ooh dear Well do it on the canvas, after all that was +What it was for. +what I bought it for. +When will you start painting? +Oh I do feel weary, I hope I'm not going to have the flu. +Well I felt, that's how I felt and you said +I told you that. +I felt weary this afternoon +You know what it is, it's the worry of that. +No it isn't! +Well it's bound to take +I had a bad night last night. +It's bound to take it out of you. +Countdown was quite good today. +Arthur? +Oh aye? +Er Carole Vorderman, she's not getting a chance to do the figures. +I, I think everybody's catching up to her methods like I am. +So she got two, two words better than +Yeah mm. +either the contestants or the er dictionary judges. +So she scored on that line. +I think we'll look at the news in a few minutes to see what the weather's going to be and then, do you want any ice cream or anything? +Or a drink? +No I +Just get a, are you ready for an ice cream or later? +Later? +What about holidays? +Yes but this time we usually book that April holiday about January. +I know but in April you've got to take a chance. +I could do with one now I think. +Are you coming to look at the news? +No. +We saw that Jack the Ripper didn't we? +Yeah it's been on so many times. +Yes it was on Sky last year. +So the only thing +And it's not as good as the real story. +No. +So the only thing er we're interested in is in er Some Mothers Do Have Them, seven thirty. +Oh er yeah and +And the Falklands on Four. +and well and there's mink a a about those +Ooh I don't want to see that thing. +Yes i i ke f er +Animals, yes. +it follows after it. +Is it? +We can see the two. +Falklands is at nine +And this is eight thirty. +oh Wildlife on One. +Eight thirty. +I don't like to see those er mink +Well it's life innit? +I know but erm +You'd like mink if somebody gave it to you. +I shouldn't, not these days. +I rather think that's a, a repeat, I seem to re remember seeing it because er didn't a lot of them escape and they've +Mm. +sort of bred all over the country? +Over the country. +Well I'll perhaps go and have a bath then. +Have you had a shave yet? +No. +You know what Mr said. +Yes. +And the car, I've put the car out. +When you're retired, shave every day. +So it looks as though we'll be able to go shopping tomorrow by the weather forecast. +Yeah, good-oh. +Okay? +Take the er picture with us +And we'll take the marmalade. +Are you going to take that to Madge's and show +What? +the picture +Oh yeah. +But remind me +I had it for +Oh yes . +No remind me to get some jars. +Have you seen Forg Fergie +Yes, I don't think she looks nice like that. +She looks thinner though. +Oh she's a lot thinner but She's smoking to get thin. +I think that's what Cathy used to do cos she used to get tubby, hasn't she? +Mm. +And then she'd suddenly go thinner and I'm sure it was when she started smoking again. +Have you looked in the garage for your slippers? +No they, they must be there, I w I know I went in there. +Well are you ready for your ice cream now? +Went in to look for the seeds so I m I might have changed, just gone , I dunno. +Are you ready for ice cream yet? +Yes you can do if you want to get rid of it. +I don't want to get rid of it! +Well you know what I mean +Yes. +get it over with. +Get it over with . +Don't think I feel like anything to eat after that late lunch. +But I thought you'd read that paper this morning? +Not +Well where's your glasses? +Mm? +You ought to wear them you know. +Did you s see the end of the news? +Er a stronger virus er +What for? +for flu has been found and they +Mm. +think it might lead to a, an epidemic, mm. +Well,s I thought it was tending that way. +No this is a stronger strain apparently and er they're a bit worried. +I don't think I've ever had the real flu. +I think you did years ago, that time, the only once you had the doctor. +Oh bad though wasn't it? +Mm +I had a fortnight of it didn't I? +Yeah. +Ma Madge said she had the real flu because she ached all over and really weak. +But I've never had it like that, it's, touch wood I never do. +I've not seen Les today, have you? +No, perhaps,perh +I wonder how he +What's for breakfast? +I dunno, what you want poached egg or egg and bacon? +mm, poached egg , no poached egg I'll do +and tomato, now drink that because I don't think we shall be able to go out today with the frost and the fog, the, you've got that on your chest and I've got a hurt throat +actually its there when I cough +well finish this off +no I don't want any more +finish that, finish that off what, have this +your like a mother to me you are +I need to be +ooh +well it, well it'll have to be our voices again on this because things being what they are we can't er, we can't go out to Cath's today with your cold and my bad throat +no +in the fog and frost so, perhaps they just be content with our voices +turn on, mm when she coming then tomorrow? +Friday +oh well might be a chance to, gone on +But it did over the shops and over +The trouble is in er just outside +and you couldn't see +the heat from the town lamps and things +well I know it says from the Midlands freezing fog, so were not going out in it so I can +mm, pitch black +we can have a steam meat pudding today, cos I'll have to leave that on +I don't think I'll want much really +oh you will after that, that, later +When he came home he was messing about on pavement for quite a while, I was, I thought somebody was trying to get in, you know +mm +I stood and watched for a minute or two +well his dustbin wasn't there cos the little lad took it in yesterday +mm +perhaps he was just admiring his new car +mm, possibly +unless he was looking around and see if it had been bumped in the night +mm he'd not put it on the drive this time +didn't he?, perhaps he's going to take his wife to work +mm, mm +perhaps waiting for all the kids to school first perhaps can't see to do it in the dark +mm +don't seem a very good driver does he?now, are you going to do any painting this morning? +er it's up to you what do you want me to do? +no, all I want you to do if you're up to it, is get me cooker hood thing off, so I can clean it, it's not been cleaned since before Christmas +what the whole thing or just the top? +just the, so we can put the new filter in, only they fret wants cleaning, I can do that, if you'll get up and undo it for me +I think I, get up and go the thing +go where?, huh I, I had an awful night again, I didn't get to sleep till about one or two, I'm not going to go to bed early again +what didn't you have? +mm? +what er I, I didn't want to get up this morning +I don't know, you were up at six, just after. +Just that shoulder still hurt? keep rubbing it +mm, just I just rub it down and to keep it moving another salt for a week or two in it, the icy roads, bound to put salt down aren't they? +no, you get obsessed with that +that cow I'll run down the stairs quick enough when the signal comes, salter's away seemed to love throwing it out don't they?. +Er what made me smile when they found out that the salt were going through these er motorway bridges and attacking the steel work in the concrete with all sort of powers that they would of known that wouldn't ya? +mm +damage it must do over the country +do you want some marmalade? +no, not +I've got some more toast in the kitchen, I'll fetch it in Have you put the fire down? +mm +I was going to say it was a bit light you don't want to get too hot +all the girls told me that +mm +well +used to go Isle of Man and that, and Bury's at Lewiston, where it's been dead now two or three year now, ain't they? +mm What do you want for a sweet? +Nothing particular +I've got mince pies +ooh +bananas and custard those, those bananas are going a bit +mm +well I like them when they go soft +I'll have the paper I think, just read +now are you having marmalade, I'm going to fetch it now +yeah, but, yeah it's stic sticky +it's not sticky and if you get it all over you shows how cold it must of been in the night, the butter won't spread +mm +well it usually keeps quite soft on, that kitchen table, near the boiler where d'ya want them?, sit up +you want that? +I don't want marmalade on it, I do have butter. +I think this time of the year the mornings seem to get darker +I want some sort of phraseology that as the nights get lighter the mornings get dark +could be +or is it the reverse? +no, I don't think so, well I think if I feel like it, after I've done me cooker hood, I might do a bit of baking +some cake +make a pudding , no I think I'll make some little, I've got some oat meal and you don't like the porridge from it so I'll make some little +cakes, oat meal cakes +oat meal and treacle crunchies, you like those don't you? +mm, did you like it yourself? +I didn't have +porridge and I +it was all greasy +well that was the milk +I know +it was the cream of the milk, well you used to like it, well sort of, some people make it with water, that's why I made it all milk, are you going to try it again with water? and just a drop of milk on top +well that's er, er sort of oat meal, porridge, why I use it to make some oat meal crunchies +even the birds don't eat it +well I've given it to the birds in the past when I've had +try +nothing else +try them an all +didn't they eat it? +it's to small for one thing in it to pick up? +well you can't give the birds much bread today, because I haven't got a white loaf, I'm not going to give 'em this expensive whole meal bread +er, doesn't milkie comes by? +yes, but it's not his day to bring bread +oh, he might have one on +I'm not paying that price, he charges about twice as much, it's seventy nine P +he has to bring it twice as much +in the shops it's about forty five +I'll go across in the car, fetch a paper and me loaf if you like +no you're not going, look I thought you said you've got it on your chest? +I'll put me coat on for a start +well you didn't put your coat on the other day when you went for the paper +I know +and that's where you've got this cold from +I was out there in er, and I suddenly thought I'd er go +yes, and look what you've done for yourself now +well I have er been in the garden, going up the garden +well you wouldn't be in the garden would you without a coat or a, wind sheeter on, it's silly. +It looks as if my galloping days are over in it? +why?well you've got to conserve your strength at your age +not throw it away +yes +yes, you've messed your hair up ain't ya? +oh, I've not done it yet this morning +I'm gonna have to have some honey for my throat, honey and lemon I think I've got a big wide hoarser on me back +m +looked in the mirror, it looked as though it was +what on your, those moles like? +yes , no, on, on the back of me throat +oh your throat it's perhaps where you're shouting in the kitchen +oh +you'll have an easy day then if you're not too good +ah, I've just got to do some cooking, bit of cleaning +I don't suppose there's a film on is there? +I don't know, I've not looked at the programmes, there's Churchill tonight at nine thirty, must look at that +part some didn't trust him did they? +oh, any body in high position you always have critics and have to be a bit ruthless at times, I expect. +Have you wound that clock up?, it looks a bit slow to me compared with the others +two and a half, yeah, go quite, yeah tis going +it is going, it wants winding up, I can tell +yes, it's nearly down +do you want another cup of tea? +no more, ta +you don't put enough tea in, milk in my tea first thing in the morning is that right? +when there's time you er one, two +no I never say there's too much milk +three now, three now +I'm going to have another cup. +yeah near enough +Have you had any whisky in your tea yet? whisky in +no I didn't know whether we were going out or not +well you've just heard the forecast, if it's freezing fog, were not going out +what day did you say it is? +it's Wednesday today all day I thought you were going to get on with your painting? +maybe +see what's on this afternoon, I shan't look up any thing this morning, unless there's a cookery programme on we both did a lemon +well you could show them how to go on +the both I T V and B B C, both did a lemon pudding yesterday, about the same, I might make one one day, it was easy recipe, new one +a western adventure on sky movies, ten o'clock till twelve +I'm not very interested in that and in any case I wouldn't be able to look at it, I'll be getting the dinner +ten too two Oaklahoma +I thought you said Oaklahoma was on yesterday, are you looking at the right page? +Tuesday +it's Wednesday today +you said Tuesday +I didn't I said Wednesday you're always getting the wrong programmes +perhaps it was the sight permanent ones sometimes you, you turn the page over +sky,ye yes, well sky's right at the end of Wednesday's programmes in that one +no he's a bit too +Chef's programme, ten ten minutes to ten +ten to ten what, what is it on the chef's programme?, +I've never looked at it, but +hot pot and Devonshire squall pigeon +oh I don't want pigeon looks as I'll have to clean the brasses this week +why? +well they're looking a bit dull +want me to put the mop on? +no, it's too cold for you to go in the garage, don't want to get pneumonia do ya? +Blood From The Mummies Tomb +no +Laurel And Hardy +no, I never cared for them put your glasses on instead of squinting +Fool and Horses that's a +lead on horses in't it Fool and Horses? +no it isn't +bet the horses are smart +oh it's not my type mm Penny's having to wait a long while for her birthday isn't she?, +I thought Cath might of come round, but +who Cath? +well she know's I've got b , Penny's birthday present here +oh +and as we haven't been able to get round +well perhaps she'll get round, I'd better tidy up first then in case +no don't mind, it's unlikely what, she won't want to come out in weather like this, oh she, she +you know that film where where ten little Indians where they all, and each one gets +yes Agatha Christies +killed +well that, that's a spoof on it, it's not +oh +it's not the real Agatha Christie but that's a bit dated I think now +oh there's one on about quarter past six +what's that? +Bull Shit +phew do what +Bull, Bull Shot +oh you are horrible +a bit shreddie +who's in it? +er well that's what it means, it's a nice way of putting it +oh well well we don't want +Bull Shit +that, I don't like that language +Philip Bruin-Ridges comedy, ploughed in the adventure of radio hero, Bull Dog Drummund , that's why it's called Bull Shot +oh, no, not for me +The Dancing Pirate, musical set in a Mexican village beset by pirates, five to one, Search For Tomorrow +well that's probably five to one in the morning then +oh yeah one twenty P M afternoon cinnamon The Dancing Pirate, a musical set in a Mexican village +mm, doesn't sound all that good does it? +Dick Van Dyke we have a look at him what, what does he do? +well that's that er mm he was in Mary Poppins +oh in what, he had a programme every week +yes Bewitched , Bewitched is the programme he's normally in +oh is he? +or was in, I don't know and didn't the male er, lead?dunno how you can read that without glasses, I can't +I thought it was I thought it was er +he was in Mary Poppins and +The Falklands again +I think you said it was on channel four that will be, in the morning if you look at, look at channel four programme and get your glasses cos if you miss it Monday night you said you could have it +two o'clock P M would that be in the morning? +no, course it wouldn't, P M's afternoon, you know that +yeah sometimes they +no, you're looking in the wrong, you look at the pr , if +Arabian, Arabian Nights +no I don't like Arabian Nights +what made me think you see it's right at the top where the morning then +well, no, yes well that's only morning, that's morning after midnight +well Arabian Nights +well you, oh no, well you can I'm going in the kitchen +I've just switched this on again +which? +the microphone, are you going to have any cider vinegar on it? +yes I'll have some +or, or you going to have some honey and whisky and lemon? +which do you think should I +well how's your chest?, does it still fell raw? +mm not now, now I've had summat to eat and +oh, what you going to try some of this or wait for your whisky and lemon? +wait for whisky and lemon +It's a murky day again. +That cooker hood was filthy, must of been all the Christmas shopping cooking I mean I think I'll put the new filter on, I'll have a go any way +After all that trauma of fixing it in, you'd better have some whisky and honey hadn't you? +Mm +eh? +yes please +Jackie said these cooker hoods are not +very good +well they're alright, but I mean you can tell they take the grease out of the kitchen, but, they're a bit of a bind aren't they?of all the cleaning and I mean I don't see why the people who make them don't sell the blimming proper filter to filter themselves instead we don't have +well we change it, then we used to then the same yet, we've, we've had +I mean where you buy the, the thing from you'd think the seldom, the spares as you want them about every four months +oh, well they're +selling the thing in't they? +yeah that's not right is it?, in fact I wrote to them and last year and er give me a Birmingham address, they might, oh +could of, when you, hundred quid for something ain't ya? +mm, are you going to drink that? +well I'll try, gotta finalize it see +is it complete now? +oh yeah, just a matter of fi , finding out what does what and +right I'll get your coffee, no I'll get your honey and whisky +I'm waiting for the hot water, mm +I'm looking for a nut erm, for this, so you know hold it in position , found one, while I'll looking I found this and it's just the job +oh +just screw it down the +brains, brains +job oh dear a mess in the kitchen +no +oh oh, remind me at half past eleven, flap jacks will be done, don't forget, I've hurt my leg now. +After all that trauma I think I deserve this do you? +yeah +I think so, just about, now put those slippers on Arthur, you've got a cold coming now you drink it while it's hot, that's a good lad oh I've put the pudding on now, so it'll have to steam for about two hours at least two and a half +yeah, +so it'll give you a bit of time to do your painting now won't it? +it looked professional look +mm I be, oh you ain't rubbed out, I thought you'd rubbed out what you did yesterday +no would of drawn that, I would of checked it with the +oh, huh +if the +was up, it's +it's right +carry on +size, that make it easier? +well bound to make it right, I don't know about easier, it'd be right wouldn't it? +I don't know +mind you with cottage, I've painted big cottage on the stage and, I only looked at it on me bike as I went through Salver +mm +I mean any body can draw a house in it?, and put some straw on it +it's the first thing kids do, draw, when +yeah +when they're at school +windows looking it up +I can, I can remember the first drawing, you used to draw a house and you +you know what I did at four in the nursery? +no +two inch long with a yellow crayon, my mate Dick in, er a Zeppelin, there were some cottages and a Zeppelin, and er, we, we coming over some blue and he said er, he said what's the blue and I said the sea, well then, it, it behind land, well I said you have to cross the sea, you know down +mm +like, you know at that age I knew they had to go across the sea. +You don't want any thing to eat with it do ya? +You see even then they were interesting in me, my, me drawing, the little kids weren't drawing, and I just, you know, playing with the crayons +Arthur +what?, what? +what was I going to say? forget now +you was gonna put that on weren't ya or something? +yes I know, I was just going to say can't think +have you put it on? +yes well do you want any thing to eat with that drink? +no nothing particular. +What would you like to do today? +well I'm still cooking aren't I? +yeah +tis er, I can see why Joan's +not getting mixed up +not, no I can see why she don't like to cook all that much it's a dirty job really +is it? +well makes your kitchen messy doesn't it? +oh well not only that you've got to fetch the potatoes, peel them, then cut them in pieces +no, I, I mean these flap jacks I'm making +mm +and she just likes every thing just spick and span, all in the right place. +Stop rubbing that eye now wear your glasses +I've been grinding the pencil, saw dust +well , well that's a silly thing you should if, if you're grinding you should wear your, some specs +s'pose +even old one's to keep the dust out of your eyes my throat still feels raw, how's your chest then +have a whisky then +no I don't +you don't want a cough thinking about it +mm, hurting across your chest, pain gone? +pain there, but, since I've got up it don't, don't do it +mm +perhaps catarrh, phlegm like +I've got catarrh, in fact I had to get up in the night and put some there +oh I didn't hear you +no you were fast asleep in about two +why didn't you wake me? +I thought I was waking you when I was tossing about +you used to wake me in the middle of the night when we were first married +I dunno, I +you must of been dead to the world, what with working +I wish we could start again, don't you? +no +not really +no +all this digging and that and sh stage shows and Joe tried +I'd better go and turn that gas down +Joe tried times to get me over erm, yeah Mrs +yeah +used to go to, do her drama didn't she? +don't forget, remind me at half past eleven those flap jacks +yeah should of screwed that, I've just thought oh do what, is it still performing? +yes +don't want to knock it over +well where's your picture? +I don't want it yet, I've got to set it up +oh I see is that the paper we bought from that shop? +yeah , I got the +fancy forgetting to get that card yesterday +I've got the other side, I thought about it in town, I thought next year I will +well if you'd of put it at the top of the basket, I would of seen it +yeah +and remembered, I mean when we went to the, get the meat, we were near the shop, we'd only just got to go down +to there +Carts Lane +cor I've done the wrong one's surely it's not fitting into that +I'll leave you to fathom that out I know you don't like me in the room when your fathomering things out +you see, you see you're sneezing again been in that cold garage, I told you, did you have the fire on? +er bit low, feels on fire +now put those slippers on, that, if you get your feet cold that gives you put those slippers on +alright +just brought us a free sample of that erm freeze dried instant tea +can you do it? +well, oh you're supposed to have four cups I'll er I'll use it one day and not tell you and see if you can tell the difference shall I? +Those bricks of +seemed to be holding them from better place from the springs we couldn't find aren't they? +what the +you know I used to sort of bellow out +bellow out yes, well the, the wind, the wind, the hand will blow the light springs up eventually perhaps I'll put, when I've made some true er, perhaps I would put six inch pieces in instead of any +oh it's alright, er I thought this was a nice bottle, but it's a foil bag, look +mm +that's it, they say in, you know what they've done, they've left the gate wide open again +oh did they? +I'll have, I'll have to go out and shut it +they wonder why you don't want to buy, in the, they must see the flowers there mustn't they? +yes another cleaning offer, half price should we have these carpets cleaned? +mm?, no +they'll be back where they was weren't they? +yes +you rubbing round and in case under all the furniture we don't tread +oh another offer, hand cream, Neutragone, Neutragena don't give you much as a sample, oh highly concentrated +two to three applications +there's black +on the railings look +gone, now, see +I don't know how you can see with that curtains pulled like that, why's it, shall I pull it back? +eh? +what's the mat , look I've just trod on two grapes there +oh sor +that's why I say we want the carpets cleaning +It's you know, what you used to like +That's it you can spitting your grape pips on the top if I'd er been, I've picked up +yeah, they fell out me they probably fell out me hand +oh yes that's a good excuse is it alright? +what? +your paint a graph, is it working? +well it's, well I'll fix it +or haven't you finished it off yet +no, I'm finishing off the bits that are left +mm, like every thing else you told me you'd finished it the other day +well I have, I'm making adjustments, what I mean, what I'd finished it, I didn't bother to try it cos it didn't work, now I found out why it don't work I have to change the rod, I've got the rod in the wrong place +mm +so I had to go and put a thread on and put it in, it in another place +use your glasses, do you want another drink? +oh yeah keep coming +no you're not having too much +why? +well, I don't know whether that man over there is cleaning the windows or whether he's having to look at the double glazing again +probably burglars +well, he was there yesterday, apparently he's must have a complaint on the double glazing wouldn't be cleaning windows two days would he? +wouldn't of thought so, it's near enough dry, now +do you want it hot or, or with dry ginger? +er dry ginger would be nice +oh you can have it hot +dry ginger, yes +well I'll give you dry ginger this time. +Flap jacks don't appear to be cooked and yet they've been in the time they should have, I don't know what's happened, there you are there's your drink don't knock it over +no +put it that side +so where is your +oh I'll get it, it's all mucked up in it, gotta clean the shed next thing +I thought you always kept it in here oh +yeah, but +mm? +don't get enough heat from there +it says leave it for ten minutes so I expect it er hardens now +What do you think to the pudding? +What? +Would you sooner of had a pie? +oh no I like pudding, pie it's a bit dry in it? +not really, always have more gravy, didn't, I didn't think the meat was as good, you didn't either and I went to another butcher because I thought it +you had to break it to bits to eat it +no you didn't, shin of beef is like that, but +too much shin on it +don't be silly, no I thought it looked better at this other bit, this butcher's, it looked leaner, but erm it wasn't perhaps, perhaps I didn't cook it enough yesterday, drink your drink +yeah +but I've got some left of that beef, so +throw it away then +I'm not going to throw it away, it's too expensive to throw away, no I'll cook it a bit more and do a do a curry, rice or spaghetti +make a meat pie and take it to Cath's +why should I take it to Cath's? +that was when I burnt my arm +come on and put your feet up you've done enough +I'm gonna put me feet up for a few minutes, do you want now we've nearly finished? +mm? +I say I'll put me feet up before we wash up +I'll wash up you sit there +no you needn't +have the birds gone? +yes, twenty four pigeons it's too many +out there? +no no the starlings seem to be pecking away at the top slabs are getting dry so I don't know, er you see that man's still up there, I wonder what he's doing up there at the side +has he got a ladder? +well he wouldn't, don't take all that long to put guttering up does it?unless he's pointing the bricks up, he was there all day yesterday +perhaps the +oh I see what you mean +any way that's his problem +oh I, yeah +mm +are you going to do any drawing or painting?, are you fed up with it? +no, it's I'll go +rest +and get on with me, you know the board I made? +yes +behind the drawing pins +mm +this, this little board there's no room to work here +oh that's why you bought the big board +yeah I know, but I +you know where your drawing pins are? +I tried it but the paper was stuck down, stuck down already +look there's the drawing pins +mm leave them there though +out, in this cupboard? +mm +I should like something nice to finish off with +take your skirt of then +don't be silly +mm, ain't that nice? +no +I thought it was +do you want half this orange? +I'll have a bit then if you're not gonna eat it +cos the big ones are too big, big aren't they these are +how is it that we forbid +how is it that were still +I've only just put it on +oh are they different oranges? +no they're Morroc but they're +they are +but they're a bigger size and thicker skinned, I'd sooner have the smaller ones +you don't see blood oranges now do ya? +you do sometimes these are the best Morroc's, but, same, the stall I go to doesn't stand on Tuesdays only Wednesdays and Fridays and Saturdays, here are +don't get juice all over it +I shan't get juice all over every where, it'll be you. +Well Made your Barbara's on at two o'clock, are you going to see that? +mm, I might as well +you've got to be quick though +what time now? +it's nearly that now, are you going to change +mm +mm?, you better, they're your old trousers aren't they?, +I mean +well with Clare and +look at all the pigeons again do you want to have a bit more?, nice aren't they?, sit up, sit up these are juicy aren't they?must still be very cold outside, can you see the steam from the boiler? +mm where was that fog on freezing roads? +I'm glad we've got the cooker hood done, you can see all that black +mm +can't never that filter to be like that have you? +ah, I've put you a three eight, wide eight thick piece of steel lay it on the top that would hold it down in the middle +well those hack saw blades do, don't they? +mm, just hold it down and +I mean I think so +that spring didn't work the one we had did it? cos it +I think those springs are, are dangerous, they shoot up and down on +came flying out when out in't it, when we put it in? +mm +now we know +I mean +it won't fly out when it's inside +that's what I mean, as you were putting it in it, it shot out didn't it? +mm +last time. +Not much on these potatoes +I've not had any today, just had one little bit, do, do you like 'em? +one thin strip of metal edge ways on across the centre I'd do it won't it?, that thing +would it? +well you've got all the size pattern down +well your the expert +in that across +well that, that spring you got was too thick +mm +too wide, wasn't it?, it was wider than the, the thing itself, so you want, it's got to be cut down width wise +you know how according to the thick, the.. bull clip last time, you had a lot of cause didn't ya? +ah but on, you know the new diagram, the new packet, the springs went like dia er +diamond +half a diamond shape +yeah what you really want is a +and on one side and yet inside the instructions it gave, you know +mm +two curves +yes well I've been thinking about it, what you want is a +well we paid about three pounds for those springs +springs? +mm +when do you ever buy +when we bought them, when we had the first lot of springs +oh I we haven't got them now that's before +you must have, must be in me diary +well any way look, if I made you a thin bit of steel straight across the centre like that +yes, that would +it's thicker than hack saw blade, perhaps a bit heavier +mm +straight across and then put a cross on the other way that's all you want +mm +like that +mm, I know +like hack, hack saw blades sort of thing +mm +edge ways on +mm +not flat because you stop the air from, to that simple enough +where you going to get the spring from? +steel +mm +oh I've got a load of that back of the car +Is this too hot with the fire on? +no I'm alright +is that the boiler making that noise? +yeah +seems to be louder than usual, don't it? +or it's your fan +I thought I'd turn the fan on +your fan? +I know I thought I'd turned it off, I'm going to have a look, something seems to be making a noise it was the vent +yeah, yeah +I'd put that on as well as the other fan +as the fan , the fats congealed with the frost +what on the +you know in the opening and +mm +the fans are catching it. +How, what's the time now? +nearly five too, five too +oh +stop moaning, you know what you didn't have +that there +your medicine before your meal, that medicine you're supposed to take before for your chest +that's alright now, it's not er, it must of been er congealed in the night in the chest. +Tis now +she won't agree +yeah +I the, the disturbed at the way the English lads are speaking +ooh without a doubt +in a way they find out +no I think that it's to get the vocabulary various classes of people and varies age group +yeah, but as Les says there's more in it than that +there's a, there's of course the entire speaking +is getting very bad now in't it +yes +I brought those all Arthur, erm +it's gotta be like that is it? +they're the things that's got to fit in, no they're not +and now I think, do they just clip on? they just clip on? +yes they well, er see that step only there's erm +yes I'll just have to stand up +I reckon there's another one the other side, perhaps that they +yes +only just drop on like that don't they? +yes and then the piece sticks out where you just er, where it goes on +yeah +so I don't how'll you, how will you do it?, will you be alright to do it? +yeah, is it, is this one alright is it, is it only the one broken or two +no there's two, they're the two pins +they're, these are all the bits +yes +well there's only, only enough bit then for I don't +yes +that's why I shall come up and have a look at +are yours +don't know +that stuff what's clipped on yours, with your pin? +no I'll show you in a minute, no +or are they just er +here you are lets take these +what I think Les, I think you should have two walls, I don't know, I think you should have two walls, one either side +yes ther ,ther ,there +then and that +them split at the end +yes +where it's on +er, right +see it's split +mind that might be hot +ooh +don't put it on the carpet if it's hot +there it is look +no that +see that spark +don't want sewing up? +yes +see were on a bit of a +yes, I move that metal, that comes out and it's split +yeah, well what +is yours split there? +no well what +don't stand on it +what I think is this +oh I see, yes, I see +hold on a minute Les lets turn these off +mind, your going to spray +lets move it away +underneath in't it? +oh we've got one of them, light bulbs +oh things come out +to be replaced, look one of 'ems gone, that's why it's dark +er, used to, any way, that wants seeing, er I reckon you should have, see that lip +yes +I reckon you should have another lip and it fits that slide on like that +yes +so you'll, I shall have to make one +yes I wonder if er if you got two bits of thin tin you know +yeah, well I and er +make you +and er +it just slides on I think +lower that and, and you peg stones up like that +that's right, yes +see you can't go out cos that's er, and er just pushes on I think +yes cos the, cos, cos where's, yeah +you see it's very fragile got a +where it's come off +mm +it's, it's parted, the, the, the, the metal fang comes along and then when it gets to the end ere it's split, it's split +I you know what that's for, for the spring, it's split like that in't it? +what?, yeah +it's split like that +yes, yes, the metal yes and it +which is +clips on there I think +well, yeah you open that out to make it tight +oh I, to fasten it on +yeah +I see +you see you get, over the years it probably expands and it +yes +becomes loose +ah +so you open that a bit +yes +that spring +which is that yeah, I +and then +alright then +you'll have to push it on +I got it, yes +any way I'll make summat to do it +right, thank you, you've got the two pins have ya? +yeah, yeah +Arthur +Better find a little dish to put them on so you don't wa +well I've got plenty +loose them, let me get a dish +I've got plenty of drivers like this +have ya? +yeah +here's one here and you've got the other one ain't ya? +used to drive erm our machine used to drive +did they? +what we call drivers +yes +about two inch long, you know +yeah +and er, they are very fragile +yeah +they've made it so as it, it do , you see I, I, I reckon you ought to open my let me make them in te in steel because er they made them like that so that when you pull them off or adjust them +yes +they won't burn ya +no yes +I mean they're like er ha hard plastic +it is in't it, yes it's like it +what are ours? +er well metal you see there look +yeah +well you don't, you don't have to make it in plastic do you? +well it does it, its method is to shove them on +oh +er in or out according to where he wants them to flicker, well you see, as it, as the wearing get hot, that plastic expands and become loose and he's got a, a split, see that steel thing +mm +ours is like that solid, well his is split, the idea that is you opened it like that, so when you push your others on, it has to compress it and it holds, but over the years it's er the body +weaked +the body +yeah +yeah +er, er, I can make you one in plastic +what +but er +oh what, oh, I dunno know, er +mm, have you had it a few years? +ooh yeah about, two the same, one in the lounge and one in the in the dining room one's got the convector on +it depends don't it? +the top +mm +and the two bars and the other one's got the two bars +mm +yeah, they're very good and er, funny that, one in each has gone +oh, oh it's +you see not the two, yes, so we've still got one lighting on each +my tubes have gone, one out of each pack oh I see you've got one, one er, er out of each room +that's right yes yeah yes +I just remembered one of these lights went last night +did they? +I forgot to remind Arthur to er +yes +to replace it +yeah yeah +get that one down +yes without go coming up to say and I presume it's like this, you perhaps told, when I draw it +don't draw on that table too much, you'll mark the table +now that's your piece still I assume +yes coming that way +that way +yes +now this, this is the matter, now you your other bit, I don't think your gonna see it mate +put that other lamp on Arthur +yeah +so you can see +yes +is Eadie resting? +yes, yes, she'll just have an or orange when I came out , she's been, I've been getting a few of those, it seems to help a bit +mm, I always eat plenty of fruit +yes, yeah +Arthur does grapes +does he? +mm, he loves grapes and apples +er +we couldn't bring any apples though yesterday, not taking me car with +ah carrying, yes +we get er +how's the arm going Evelyn? +well it's, it's still swollen +yeah +oh her tempers getting the same Les +yeah, yeah, yeah +but, er I can turn taps and hold things a little bit more +can you, yes I well it's gonna take time for that +not, not all that +to go down, in't it? +as you, you know how you sort of hold want to +yes +hold things in your left hand +yes +er, it's still not very strong +is it? +no +mm +but the swellings gone down mostly I've got gloves +ooh it is, it's a lot better, yes quite a while +on for the first time yesterday +Christmas, yes yeah +so +yes +I think I'll go +you can't draw it in yellow cos it don't er take on this so I'm going +you don't have to draw it in yellow +no, no I'll be alright now +if you do them both white it looks all wrong +yeah +but you've got different colour pencils +now this green is your, your yellow +yes +er there's a slit there ain't there like that?, keep this still +yes, that's right, it's open, yeah +well +oh that's how, how it works +now that's, that's the wall of your yellows +yes +broken +that's right +and that's the other wall which you need to go +yes, as far as I can see with the other one's +yeah +still on yes +yeah , they now, looking at end ways, it's like this in't it? +yes +that's your, your yellow plastic +that's right it's just on the end +that's it now here's your steel bit that's split +yes +like that +yes +so if you open that er steel bit +yes +wide like that +yes +wider than what it is +yes +it grips when you push it on +that's right +and the idea that is, is I see it +yeah +is you want +so they will slot it won't they? +yeah as I, no, no not the yellow, the, the metals slot in +yes +and the idea is so you, you push it down to earth, you want it down to there +in other words you can move it up and down aargh +and I reckon that's it, that's broke on your movement you see +yes +it's, these walls have broken off there +mm +see those two walls +yes +and that's the bottom bit, and that, that there's your steel inside +yes that's right +but these have broken off and of course it's dropped off +I +so what I'll shall have to make you is a, you can either have it in metal, or in plastic +whatever is, is, is easiest for you Arthur you're doing +well I think it's both easy, but er +yeah +there, it's done with plastic so it don't get red hot when you, when you adjust it +yes +but then again you'd be a bit daft +don't suppose you adjust it very often do ya? +no, but you'll be a bit +never touched it I haven't +no +you'll be a bit daft to adjust it when it was hot wouldn't ya? +mm, yeah +yes, but I've never touched them er +if it was mine I'd er, I'd er +I've took these off to, to put the bulbs in +mm +for my money I'd have it with all metal +yes +but that's the i you see the idea of it now can't ya? +yes, yes +your yellow bits slides along here to where they were, here's your, here's your point +yeah +you can have it there, you can have it there, you can have it there +ah, ah +by pushing it up and down +yes +and this gets very hot, well fairly hot +yes +and the plastic soft and broke +yes I think what I can see of er of what's on the other one on each fire +yeah +er there right on the end +mm oh I see +there right to the end +oh Arthur's all, always messing about with ours +is he? +to sort of make them go round +ah +you know unless there's a draft +yes +they won't always flicker do they? +no, no , no +he likes fiddling about +yeah +I've made ours go right and left we've got two +yeah I've never touched ours much at all +well he's only got on , there's one out of each fire +oh, we've got two and er +well so has Les got two +on the same fire? +yes +but there's one alright and one broken +there's four altogether +yeah, but, oh four well I'd like to +yeah of course, yeah +you, you see those wings that are going round there +yes, yes +he's got two fires +these +yes +I turn 'em what that, that way +yeah +and this one that way +yeah +so that one goes to the right and this one goes to the left +ah, ha, ha I've nothing, never, yeah +he, he fiddles about with he likes fiddling +he did tell me though about doing the old pencil in, in here in't it? +yes +in here Arthur ain't it? +or graphite +or a bit of graphite, yeah +you put the in there, in there do ya? +just put your +in there? +pencil, just put your pencil in and along there +yeah and roll it round I +yeah, now here's your, there's your peg look your pointer, now draw it in black, you can see it better, there's your pointer, now draw it out here, the bit you brought your, your yellow bit is like that +yes +and if you, if I make in steel and then can drive in and fit your pin +yes +you'd have this effect, see there's your wall and the, that then you pin up the middle like that +ah, yes +you see, but now that, if that were metal and this is your other metal +yes +you know, what you say that's split +yes, where it's gotta go on +yeah, gotta go on like that in't it? +yes +now, for my money now if that were loose I'd open these +shall +no +strip, straight them open so that, they're like that a bit instead er +ah, yeah +straight like that +yes +and then if you did that it would tighten on to your walls +yes +and you could make, adjust it and it'd stay there +ah +but over the years it's got loose and you've probably fiddled and it did broken +ah +I should have them all metal cos ours is all metal as you see +mm +but I'll make you one in, two in plastic if you like +yes you want one of them +no, no, well +whatever +it'll be easier +these are the best then +these get fairly hot +yes +and er you see these get, well, they're not too hot there +yeah +but, there's your wall look er what we done with it, there's your wall, that goes, should run er, like that +yes +then you can adjust it in or out +ah I've got it +just to get it in the right +yes +location +yes +you see, well to keep it tight +yes +you open those prongs +yeah +and of course it's probably been +yes +over tightened or it's +and that's all they were fasten on with that sort of stuff +that's it +mm +just slide off +would you believe it, it's +if, if you like I make it all in metal +oh yes, which evers you wanna make +well I'll make er I'll make two in metal and two in plastic and then see how you go on +no make two in metal instead +oh that won't take me five minutes to do that, it won't +oh I know your five minutes Arthur, five hours +it, it, it be a quick five minutes +usually always +how the birds going oh +I thought you were feeding 'em when +oh I was looking you see +just before you went upstairs for a bath +yeah +you were cos I when Les came I thought you were still feeding them +apparently on these you know you twist them +yes, I, yes I've never bothered with +you do know that, not too much +them, I mean er +but if, if you twist that, that way +yeah +and that the other way +yeah +you get erm one going that way and one going the other +yeah and also they go better as well don't they? +well they're nicer you see +they should go better really shouldn't it? +mm +if there +have you seen the records Les is, oh he's going to feed the birds before seven +I think you'll find there's quite a selection there and they're, sort out what you want and that you know and er, ooh there's lot of the old ones and every thing and +mm +yeah +well he's busy taping nearly all, our old records +is he?, yeah +well they're easier to put in the tapes +yeah +are +that's right +you, you haven't got a tape machine? +no, no +no +no +well we only bought ours last year +yeah, yeah +but as were getting older we find +yes +put a tape in ea without any trouble I can't +that's right no +I can't see to put the needle on properly on the record +no, no +Arthur says I scratch them any way +oh +trying to put it on so +ah yeah +so I never bothered with the records +no +but with a tape +yes +just slot them in +yeah +and that's it +no with the, er +in fact if I'd known you hadn't got one, the one we had before, oh know it's not got a tape on though, but you've got a record player haven't you? yes +yes , yes +right, I mean the record player that we've got and radio was quite good +yes +but it hadn't got the tape +no +thing +no +and we gave it to the erm school at over Downing Drive +oh yes +for, when they were having their sale for their sports and swimming pool or something +oh yeah, yeah , mm +I mean we had given to us our friends, mad on radios +yes, yes +and er, you know, he always wanted the very latest and +that's right, yeah +when he got some money +that's right +he, he decided to have erm video and every thing and cassette +yes +music centre +yeah +so erm, he said would you like it +mm +instead of your old record player +ah, very good +so, er we had it for about four years and then Arthur decide to have one of these last year . +yes, yeah , yeah +It's funny about Ellis having ya, I think, I think +yes +the re-unions though wouldn't be the pre-war would they? +oh I don't know this, this Eileen said something about they had one the year previous +yes but for what year? +but they didn't when they're having the next one +oh it was of your age though +oh yes oh yes +oh, oh +same age as me +oh +yes +because not many of the +you know when your +was you er, was you in the hockey team or any thing? +no played +no +hockey but was never in a team, no +I , us there were one or two er +you were in a football team? +yes and then there were the er +what other name black, Dora +oh yes, oh I know Dora she used to be in our dancing troop +get out +we had a little dancing troop +I thought perhaps she might come from something like that +yes, yes Dora +she was captain of the hockey team +well that was before she, well, was she?, +I didn't know that +oh yes +cos she was a bit young, she was more like my young sister age +does she dance? +she was for the top of the hockey team and I were for the football +I've got a picture of her somewhere +if you don't feel think there's a fly at the window +yeah, yes +will you pull the curtain? +well would you believe it? +yeah +but you've never seen her since +erm +no, do you remember that photograph we've got of that dancing troop? +what you? +yes +yes +and Cath, well apparently he knows one of the girls on +shall I get it down? +do you know where it is? +yeah +Dora +Often wondered what's some what happened to some of the +in fact her brother er came to work at Oliver's, er, er +did he? +in the buying office, er when I was there +would you believe it +but he didn't stay long +no +I don't know why +yeah, but, they lived in Buller Road +Buller Road, yes +where did you live when you were +McDonald +you were in McDonald? +Dun Donald +Dun Donald +yes +why, which one was that? +next to it +next to it +before, before Buller +get out +Robert's Road at the top +that's right +and I was at the bottom +ah well fancy you knowing her +yeah, yes and er she, but she was a bit younger than me she was more my young sister's age, two years younger than me +ah she would be because she was there +yeah +she was still there, she was still there when, when I finished +mm +I don't know whether she was just finishing then +so she'll be two or three years younger +yes +because I think this little dancing troop we had out, I was about the eldest +I +there was my young sister we used to perform at +concerts +and where were this at er? +Carey Hall and er +oh yeah I, I went Carey Hall +and er Melbourne we used to go +yes +that one at Melbourne Road +yeah +oh that isn't eh that's Dora fancy you knowing her +well would you believe it +that's Dora , that's me +yes +I forget what her name is +yes +oh that's Do that's Betty that's her young sister +get out +and that's my young sister Cath +oh would you believe it +these are good ones Les ain't they? +yes +yes and that one +yes, yes +I'm trying to think of her name oh that was my young sister's +that was my young sister's mother, Wendy +was it? +in the war nineteen forty +oh +I didn't know it +no forty one +yes +she's dead now though she's +didn't know you were a high brow +is she? yeah do what Arthur? +didn't know you was a high brow +why's that?, where's that? +behind the straw at +oh, oh got him alright +that's not high brow +oh, we've got all Bygraves +oh he is, there's all Max there yes and +have we got erm +nice band man, there that's me, that's me mam, that's +yeah +me dad and that, they're both dead now +yeah +and er they're all dead now +is he really? +that's, that's Pam, my erm, me er niece +mm +she was only about two and a half there +well would you believe it?very nice +I didn't know we'd still got this +don't you look skinny? +eh? +don't she look skinny? +yeah +well when you were dancing you, why I always were, well when, when your +yeah, well you've gotta be, yeah, well mm +and this Molly she always had to be different +did she? +Dora mother made all that, these dresses +did she? +yes for about six pence a yard from the dee hive +would you believe that +well would you believe it +well we haven't got much erm +yeah +much money really, shall I have me hair like that now, short, straight? +page boy +no it's not page boy, it's just short +it would of been in my day +er Cath's still got curly hair hasn't she there? +yeah +that's Betty, that's Dora , that's Dolly Molly +I noticed I er, did you notice it, which is the proper way?, often or often? they always say often today +I, it's often +well what's it got, what's going on then, why do they +dunno +delete it? +yeah +mind you some of that er, those pantomime found a box of the er he talks bad, not bad English but not proper English and +oh no, no +and +I think he's good +yeah +I say Cath reckons Andrew +yeah +Aud Audrey's boy is like me dad, he is in't it when you look at him +well he could be it's in the, in Australian in it, yeah +yes, no, my, my, that, her son is, she my sis Cath reckons he's, he's like me dad +I +I think he is really +well we we went to a +yeah +wedding down South and er took all the photographs +he's wedding, Andrew's wedding +and er, when we got them printed, before we even sent them off, there were one, somebody, I've been talking to the father in, in the father of the bridge +mm +now against an apple tree and I asking him I was it permissible to go scrumping and he had to converse with the maid I think +yeah +and some lady +yeah +and I, they informed him want scrumping was +didn't know what scrumping meant +I, yes +oh he said it's quite permissible +oh +and er +oh well it posh people weren't it +yeah +well I, getting back to the picture you see, I, when I looked at it I thought good god it's our Bill, I, I you could of thought it were twin brothers when I +I +looked at that, you know +yes +seeing him and then seeing him on that +that's right, yeah +and yet when it, in er, when say comes round or I'll go round you don't look at all that much alike +no, no that's right +but I suppose you do in a way +yeah +you used to always say you can tell they're brothers like these +that's right, yeah +though they are sisters and +yeah +still +have you got any brothers? +two +two still alive? +what you +yeah, round, yeah, yes one in Colchester Road and one's er Bramall Road +mm +that's just +have you seen the new car? +I, what's happened? when did they get that? +ooh they came and fetched the old thing +did they? +about last Thur +they came about nine, half past nine? +no, it wasn't it was +it were dark +it was about six o'clock that night +it weren't +no, no, it was, it was just after five +it was darky any how, he couldn't see what he was doing +yes, well it is dark at four +yeah +because I thought Beverely would be coming home and she wouldn't be able to +yeah +get in +get in +because the trailer and thing +yes, yeah +was loud +what he had, what he had was a biggish lorry with a low +fork lift +back ball +yeah +and er he'd got, he, we used to call them +that you hooked on to the back of your lorry +yeah +like the bit, the brewers do +yes , tip yeah, yes +to roll the barrels down +yeah +well what he, he got a windless behind his cabin +yeah +electric +yeah +and he started it off and I +wreck creeping up on, er right onto his cabin +I, I so it's gone +he, he rushed off as soon as that were done +right +whether somebody is whether complained +it wasn't the the proper, proper people +no, no +no markings on it, you know +he's got another one now then +yes, because my er, my niece's husband when he came er, oh they brought us back, they fetched us Boxing Day and brought us back and he said it would be a right off he said +mm +the damage to the front +oh yes +he said, I don't think they'll be able to repair that +no +and they next day that one that came +I +they put it on the drive for +yes +about twice +yes +but it's still is it's on the road again I think +yes +he, yeah I don't think he can get in all that much +yes +he gets fed up trying to get it on the drive +it by coming down +yeah I've just been and put +yes +seed out +oh yes +I is there a lot there? +yeah +twenty two we usually get +yes +I counted twenty four , you +what type are they all doves are they? +there coloured doves +colour +As Asian coloured doves +yes +and er the +is gonna build that factory at the back +yes +he said are they your pige +factory? +well it looks like a factory +yeah +he said er +er are they your pigeons?, +I said no, I says er accommodation doves and they're protected, he says what'd ya mean protected, he says you've not got to kill them +er they want them to stay in England +ah +you know and our and +I +have our own breed +where are they, in the, do they, are they +well, well +in the trees or from around here? +no they come from the park +they come from over the sh , the shop way a lot of them +do they? +I +I reckon they hang round there for the chips +we get one or two, but not as mad like that +oh no +some, some might of join 'em from the park, but +I +most of 'em come from over there, and I, there's a fish shop there you see with the stuff +ah +you know +that's right +we get a lot of the seagulls come do you? +oh yeah, yeah yes +how's Eadie any way? +well a little bit better, but not a lot, not with the chest and that so +with with +the antibiotics not done a lot of good +we just half talked the other day about holidays, er, a, I don't suppose you're going are ya? +not +no +now, no, matter of fact I do +but I weren't sure where, I think it were last week it were gonna be +yeah +or it could be this week, er you know how they have the January and they have it in Haymarket +that's right +with all with all the people in +yes have the , ah they're still there +well no they're having it in the er, that one against top of the market, what is it called er? +mm +that place +Saracens Head? +no, the, it's like er Council +oh County rooms +County rooms +County rooms +and it were gonna be in there Thursday +oh +Friday, Saturday +which week?, or you don't know +I weren't sure whether it was last Thursday, Friday or Saturday or this +mm or this +Thursday, Friday, Saturday, but er if I have to go up town I, I'll probably go just round there +mm +and just pop me head round and, and see, in case it is this week +mm +cos I reckon Brend I'll be there +mm +and different ones, but they said all +I wouldn't , I wouldn't mind going for a few days +all the brochures are gonna be there you see +mm, mm, mm +for every thing +I wouldn't mind going away for a few days, but +mm +it's a bit dicey this time +oh now it is, yes +yeah , although you've got it +yeah +on your chest this morning haven't you? +ah, well, ah +where's your pull over?, you better put that on +I woke up in the night a pain here +I +and I thought, ooh, any way, I went to sleep again and when I got up to +myself +yeah +er had the pain again and now it's going +I er probably might be doing with a bit of wind, indigestion stuff +oh I I hadn't thought of that +with your food +no, well he was a bit chesty your were got catarrh like you've a +I suppose you have bronchitis don't ya when you're old +I mean were, was it sore or burning? +not burning er raw, like raw +and when you coughed it was oh well +yeah when you cough you know +oh well +I had it like had it like a jab like a +oh well +well you know what he did, on Monday morning he was in the garage when he suddenly made up his mind to com to walk across to the paper shop to get a paper and he hadn't got er a jacket or any thing on, all he got on was a pull over +oh, er, well +well I was alright +and it started to drizzle a little bit didn't it? +yes +mm +I mean it was ridiculous +but you were keeping warm by being under co , in a bit of a cover you see +oh yeah, yeah +and you were going out into the +and it blows across like that +I mean I went I called to him and I thought where's +where's he gone +yeah , yeah +I thought you +off for a minute +yeah +looked in the garage, I thought well where's he gone, he's not +oh dear +did you look under the cover? +no I didn't +oh +mm +and then I was just getting worried +eh, eh +who's that? +looks like he's got his kids today +it is his kids +is he the one next door? +no he's further up +no the +oh I see +next one +yes +he does make +yeah, yeah +would you like a cup of tea? +no, no I'll, I'll get back now +you sure you won't? +Evelyn cos of leaving Eadie +you want a drop of whisky then +pardon? +drop of whisky or any thing? +no, no thank you Arthur, any way +yeah +use what you want +yeah +now I mean now got 'em all but if, take your pick and er +yeah, yeah, yeah we've got not, not the same record but the same people Strauss, got one of Strauss +yes +but I'll er +sort, sort out, any thing you can use to help you with the tape +tape yes +you know those +right and don't worry about getting 'em done and getting 'em back to us +no okay +you can keep as long as you like because +I, I, I keep them alright +shan't want 'em for a long while +er the little room up there we call the music room +yes +where we +we only use, we only fetch 'em out about at Christmas time +we, we never ev , we never used it +oh we might have a oh we did at first, when we first had the record player years ago didn't we? +oh yeah, what we do now I've got a, a bought cabinet +yeah +with sliding doors, to keep the dust off them and that +ah, yeah +so they'll be, I, I put the perhaps start on them tomorrow then and get so you'll get them back +this is right and as regard this, an all, don't worry about this +well +plenty of time +tomorrow we've got to go out +you can +if, if it's +there's no rush were not wanting 'em +unless it's foggy or frosty +were not wanting 'em, we've got one in each going so +yeah +we've been like that a long while, so a lot longer won't matter +we've got to go out tomorrow +we've got to go +and get some heavy shopping done +ah +cos we haven't had the car for apart from nearly a fortnight +yes, right , well don't let him get mucking about with these then and wasting his time +well I've got to get a bag of potatoes +well it's her +we always have a bag of potatoes do you? +milk man ran 'em off +oh what a big bag? +yeah +oh, oh no we have half hundred weight +ah +and Jack +well why I do a saucepan every day +yes +and Jack's +the birds have most of them +that's right +and we get Jack in +yes +and we usually get Jack in +if you ever want a bag you know +er, yes +will bring it round +well perhaps they don't eat many potatoes do they? +er not, not a big +you having tin potatoes weren't you when Eadie was here? +oh yes, yes +and they're cheaper +we've gone back to the others though now yes, we get +and they're cheaper buying them like that +ooh cheaper buying them in a hundred weight bag +oh of course they are, yes, yes +oh we'll bring you bag +no he doesn't er, he doesn't eat so many +yes +cos they don't keep do they? +no, no +no +what d'ya reckon the idea of that was? +oh to make a bit of money +yes, yes it was very good that, very nice +not bad are they? +yeah +it's surprising how it looks from the +oh yes +you know, even I say to Evelyn when I was watering I said +er, as if , it was if you've got a picture of your gardening it'd be nice wouldn't it? +yes, yeah, yeah +did you see +mind you might, might of taken some because say they took some in Valentine down there +yes, yeah, yeah +he seemed to think he's the er, he were doing it to sell them +oh well he must be +yes +he said, I think people are take er, you know +I showed it Tom next door, I says er, it, I says, he came and had a drink and to, and to see Evelyn and I says look you can tell Oliand and Dog Tongue +ah yeah, yeah +I've often wondered about the other two's gardens it, but you can see now can't you? +yes you can can't ya? +it don't amount to much does it? +no, very good any way +I think yours I'd make a lovely picture +what puzzles me though The Gables +yes +paint in blue, but they're blue +yeah +well it's just the light on the picture isn't it really? +yes that's right any way I shoot off and as I say hope you'll soon be a bit better both of you +oh yeah +I've just got this sore throat and +throat and that +I'll er +but er +just +yeah Bramall Road +bye, bye Les +right bye +It's a pity Les came when that Major Barber was on, I was just enjoying it +yeah +you hadn't seen much of it had you?, but +no +I was just enjoying it +oh well , you'd of thought he'd be looking at it wouldn't ya? +well, er Eadie was resting but er, it's good, I thought I wouldn't want to see it again, but I'd forgotten it +vase, is like er, he had a majority of two thousand, now he's lost three thousand voters +well if, perhaps they're not paying, if they're not paying the poll tax +the tax, yeah +they're not supposed to be on the voting register, are they?any way did you see where Liverpool two thirds have not paid +mm, no I didn't see that +no didn't see it , it was on the one o'clock news +oh you're right +yes +spokesman believes that majority of missing vouchers are poll tax dodgers +well they should +she said this won't help labour get in, these people were, page, five +oh I expect they are on, on the Council +they ain't consistent then with the +Council Estate any way shouldn't think Labour would get in Liverpool if two thirds are not on he +no +although I bet, I bet they're non pay +Not till nine thirty. +You know that painting he had, the last painting of himself? +He said to the painter er, what are you going to show me er, no, what are you going to paint me, a bulldog or th the chair? +Mm. +And er, he said well that depends on what you show me. +Well, I think it, he had a bit of a stroke and he sort of looked, you know +Looked a bit erm, senile didn't he? +Well he painted him , painted him he said, and, you know when he died er the well not, no he, they both went in the garden and burnt the pa , the painting. +Yes I remember that. +Oh well it were painter who died. +But th , they burnt it up. +But I I thought then he'd had a slight stroke so to make him +I think he had. +look like that. +Ah! +Look! +Have you seen this? +No. +Model craft sale. +You know that shop we saw when we got lost up Ayleston Road? +Mm. +And I said there's that other model making shop +Mm. +they're advertising big reductions. +What? +Including radios, kits and accessories. +Model shop. +Erm, radios and kits, that +But it's a model , they sell shop +Oh I see! +they sell things like that shop they closed down. +Mater , materials likely. +Cable Road, Ayleston. +We can go and have a look at how far in Ayleston is it? +Well I saw that pai , I saw the shop as, as we came down the Ayleston Road, near the terminus. +Mhm. +We've got the map +Mm mm. +in the car. +We'll get that way, we'll have a look at +Mm. +Did it say how long? +Open Sunday, ten till four. +Mm! +Must have a lot of stuff! +We could go Sunday. +Yeah. +It's probably closing down like that other one. +I, he's about the +Well he went er +only one +He we , he only +left. +he only went about a week and then he closed. +No he didn't! +Yeah. +It was three months +Well so +but he might be closing down because +You see +nobody's making much are they? +your teenagers don't make ships and things now, they don't want to +Mm. +it's work you see, and they don't wanna work! +We could go Sunday morning couldn't we? +You see they don't want finicky stuff, they want er a large pay packet fo , er stamping er envelopes. +Mm. +Is that all? +Is that, oh! +What shall we dispose of? +Well you don't to see a football match. +True. +True. +Is it we ,? +I don't think there's anything much on now. +Have a +You er +rest for a couple of minutes. +Are you going to have a drink? +I think you ought +What +to have another Beechams tonight. +what do you suggest? +Well you can have +Rat poison or arsenic! +Well you , don't be silly! +And what else? +No, what you going to have? +Would you like +a dob of, drop of hot whisky and lemon, or wait till you get to bed? +I can't have lemonade so +Wait until you get, what, do you want it now or when you go to bed, take it to bed? +They don't sleep do they? +Why take them to bed? +I'm talking about a drink, silly! +I don't mind what we have, you er, you're the barman. +You can expedite it if you like. +Can you picture that house? +You'll make that . +What? +Les come up with the same ideas I thought when I se , when we had bought it. +What was that? +He said, ooh! +Well, if you wanna sell the house you only gotta get up round and show them that ! +Oh I see. +He, he's correct isn't he? +I thought of that er . +Well if it came over his house th oh of course, next to the that will have been empty for a few years so +Yeah, but they see the length of the garden, you know that garden +Yes, it's a nice +all +It's a nice garden. +Mm. +But I mean ,nex , next door was all er, overgrown it's not been . +We've got a fair length in there haven't we? +Yeah. +Cos it was good! +You know, there was more than enough really. +I keep going hot and now I'm cold, and then my throat's hurting. +I think, would you like to do some er adaptation, you know with a +I think +pair of wires to +well I think it would say on it +and then shut this er on the roundabout too. +Well I told you that man was trimming trees at the bottom, the other day. +We could have gone to him. +Well, there's plenty of time. +I know but, if you're shoulder's bad, you won't be able to do it. +We shall have to see shan't we? +Shall we not? +Oh dear! +No, but if they took Les's garden you see the other side would be a rubbish dump so +Mm. +True. +But then +They probably wouldn't take it. +it won't always be a rubbish dump +I know , but +Yeah. +but you wouldn't want a photograph of your garden a and a +rubbish the other side. +Well that's only a little bit that bit is. +I mean, you can see that's a new building +Mm. +just that little bit they haven't cleared up. +But er that lady ha who's had that extension done about cutting the branches er wouldn't you rather see it like that? +Well, no I don't know. +I bet she'd no , see a difference if we cut them down wouldn't she? +Mm. +The way I looked at was a rubbish tip, that bit it looks as if he's cleared and the grass is growing. +And grass growing , yes. +And all slabs and bricks and +Ah but there is some behind that fence. +You can't +Mm. +really see from that. +I see. +No. +That's all rubbish there. +Yeah. +Didn't know had a glass house did you? +It's not! +That's the garden in Summerleigh I keep telling you that! +Oh it comes down to from there. +Course it does! +Yes! +Mm. +It's on the border. +Why did they put it right down the bottom? +Long +Well +way to go! +Put it where it's convenient don't they? +I think you'd better go to bed . +Did er, Tom like the I've never seen a better one th have you? +No it's a lovely frame! +Usually only get like that but +Yes,th th the narrow . +That's to give it more sales value I suppose. +Do you think? +Mm. +Oh, our damn stupid wheelie bin +there that +Mm. +that daft wheelie bin! +Think he'd take it down the bottom wouldn't you? +Well ours is still there from +It's er +yesterday +Yeah, but that's only cos I ain't got the car out. +But I mean, they got, they gotta come out the front to put stuff in haven't they?till that was clean int it? +Mm. +It was clean the other day before they took +Yeah. +it. +That's Tom's drive, int it? +There. +That bit. +Mm mm mm mm. +Goes up to his garage. +And then that's the, bit of a well they can't build any more can they? +You said they were building another garage didn't you? +No I didn't. +You said they were! +They were doing some a , in the renovating something. +Yeah. +Perhaps a , they're building that. +Cos look Tom's garage nearly reaches the wall. +I know. +He's just padded something down. +Perhaps something +Mm. +went wrong. +Yeah. +And he had the workmen back. +Don't do that ! +Where e'er you be, let the wind go free! +Do you want a, er, do you wa , no I don't think you better have a Beechams now, I think you better have one later. +In, you know that +To go to bed. +You know that film er a boat er, a boat we er +Mm. +The African Queen +The African Queen. +he had a rolling stomach. +Mm. +When he dranked anything. +Well, aren't you going to have a why don't have a egg sandwich? +It's alright,had enough to eat. +You didn't have all that mince pie. +Christmas cake. +I'll have a mince pie or Christmas cake. +Well, which do you want? +Betwixt between them. +Cup of coffee and I know, a cup of coffee and a drop of Cointreau, we haven't had any of that. +Yes, that will do fine. +And a Christmas cake. +Yeah. +Okay. +And two cherries on a stick! +Ah well, you'll be lucky! +I think it was taken in the July fortnight. +Oh really? +Mm! +Tha +that's his car that was smashed up. +Yeah the smashed up one. +Yeah. +Well he's got a new one +He's got another one. +now. +Has he? +Ford Orion. +Oh yes! +Mm! +Let's just put my coat on. +Oh yes! +Take your coat off a minute Evelyn. +Yeah. +Oh that's good int it? +Yeah! +That's good! +I shall have a +Ah! +couple of newspapers. +There's all the back gardens. +Super int it! +It's our clean road. +We've just been to Nursery. +Oh we're, we're going to Sainsburys in a minute. +Have a look +Takes a lot to clean the place up. +Ooh yes! +You +There's a +You can +And +see the difference +see the difference. +can't you? +The man said, how is it your grass is greener than next door? +Yes. +How is it? +Well you get the frame and all the lot. +Oh! +Do you really? +Mm. +Frame +That's marvellous isn't it, really? +you get the frame and all the lot. +Marvellous! +Yes! +Very good! +That's not right is it? +Very good! +Have you read that Vince? +Pardon? +Have you read that letter? +Yes. +Oh yes. +over there this morning then? +Anyway what I don't know what your er accent is? +Not from here. +Geordie. +It's Geordie. +Geordie. +Yeah. +Geordie! +Oh! +Northumberland, yeah. +Er . +Newcastle on Tyne. +of spoken English. +I knew you came from North but I never knew exactly where from. +Oh yes! +Newcastle. +That's the place. +Put it down. +Sit down a minute. +Yes alright. +Don't stand up. +No we're not, no we're not sitting down like. +We got a lot, we got a lot +Sit down on er seat over there. +got a lot to do. +Now go and have a look in the hall it looks beautiful! +I like the idea, do you? +Oh that's nice, yeah. +Well I thought the dado would make a change +Yes. +you know. +It is nice isn't it? +Of course, it's purple. +Yeah, it's beautiful! +And that's lovely! +And we're doing the top as well. +To the very end. +I like your skirting board, er er changed round. +Yes, it's a nice change. +You like it? +It looks nice don't it? +Beautiful! +Yes, you've made a good job of it. +Nice bit of wood that! +Yes, there's a Kath! +Yeah. +Well this is alright, but we're only doing it for the beneficiaries int you? +Yeah I know. +What then? +I i , it's so it's something to think about isn't it? +They'll say +You've gotta live with it! +Look at that horrible side table ! +It were alright, you know, so much +We've got to live with it and +Yeah. +Yes, I'll be taking him ho , have you er, had your carpet cleaned? +No. +Ah ! +It keeps well doesn't it? +Yes. +It's only been cleaned once since I've had, and it's been down er, since nineteen +Well what's your verdict then? +seventy four. +What's your verdict? +Yeah, that looks alright. +Yes! +Yeah. +You know what I think er,th we've been talking about it round about and I says, you know, they were wondering if it was a bit suspic , I said no,th , they worry to death, there's our children who speaking like the nig-nogs! +Yeah! +That's right. +Did you mean this? +Yes. +I reckon that's what it is. +Well it is! +Quite right Arth! +No ,we , well I think it's the +It is to do with that isn't +Yes. +it? +Yes. +Yes. +In the dictionary and +Yes. +there's what +Yeah. +vocabulary is being used in +Yes. +present day +Yes. +that's what it was. +Yes! +That's right, yeah! +Mm! +Is that +Probably is. +a new cabinet you've made. +No! +We made +No. +We've made that, that +We made many years ago. +Looks nice doesn't it? +Oh! +Sa +Do you replenish the glasses though? +Are they for show? +What the glasses? +Glasses ! +Erm +Oh we use them! +Oh! +We broke, we've broke one +they keep breaking though! +We use some for, I'll tell +We broke +what it's for if you want one? +one of these erm one of those green ones we broke. +But that's all. +Yeah. +That's all we've broken really. +Mm. +Have you got a glass? +Yes! +Oh! +Oh, I didn't know that. +Ooh it's all on there! +That's supposed to be +Er well we want Penny to, Penny's not coming today, had to +supposed to be test that is. +go to Nottingham on a course +Mm. +Mandy's in Derby +Mm mm. +for week and er +Does she stay in Derby? +I thought she was +Oh no! +travelling daily. +Daily. +Daily. +On the train? +On the train, yes. +Did you buy these? +And erm +The ? +And no now next week she's got to go Leeds. +Oh no , I found those other chairs, the side, yeah. +It's just right +She likes it then? +for the +Ooh yeah! +I still like the cabinet though +, yes! +myself. +Yeah. +But she's still planning +But they must know. +you know, I like the that way, but +Mm. +this is ever so. +Yes! +Yeah. +It is +Oh! +Yeah! +Oh yeah. +They have to work +But still +you know, quite, But I'd wished I'd, I wish I'd have got those photographs to show off. +Oh the er +photographs that er +Cow bell was that? +that Joyce had taken? +Oh yeah! +What what did Mandy +Er, no Mandy and Neil. +She's studying photography at night school +Mm. +and she's took a whole lot of Mandy and Neil! +They're beautiful! +Oh this lady? +It's +Yeah! +Lovely pictures! +Mandy's boyfriend's mother. +Really well done! +Are they all portraits? +Super! +Yeah. +Er Mandy had one taken for +How's your car doing, alright? +Penny's birthday. +Oh yes! +Evelyn said, don't it run well! +I said at eight years old, it should do but it +Not bad for eight year old is it? +Shall I go and put the kettle on? +Well, if you like that. +Er, if I have coffee in the morning +I didn't wanna come out cos of the salt though. +I do sometimes. +Erm +Yeah. +Well I +I if it had +It's not bad yet is it ? +No. +There's not too much down. +They throw all the bloody salt +Yeah. +out when there's no ice! +Do you always have coffee? +We always have +Oh yeah! +coffee round about ten. +As soon as you fix, cos er, as soon as you fix your car +it starts to work! +Yeah. +Yeah. +And the bloody ! +Er, found out, that on these motorways the bridges were ro , collapsing because the iron work with the salt from the road were it, wouldn't you have thought +Oh I know! +they'd have thought of that! +Well all er +Yeah the the salt's getting down to th , and it's all running riot! +All hindsight isn't it? +They're your grandchildren? +Oh! +That's a long time ago. +Yes. +I was going to say, they're growing up now aren't they? +Yes! +Arthur, would you like a cup of coffee? +Er, no thank you. +You sure? +Would you like to have it +Well my waterwo , if I start drinking and then I'll want to go, and if I can't go +Well we've got two toilets! +Oh I know, but +Well we've got to go to +Well you don't want a , you don't want a sherry then? +No, if I get round so +Have a sherry then. +I'll perhaps want to go and then I've gotta go up then . +We've got to go and get some potatoes. +And er then to Sainsburys to do the shopping. +I reckon you get like that in old age Vince. +Well er, Madge to have her hair done yesterday. +Mm. +Oh Wednesday, yes! +Yeah, she's had it permed. +Mm. +Some of the men were on +Is that the new idea? +Yes. +No, well I wanted to get back like +We do have some seats, you know! +Yeah. +Mm! +I like the, the vase you brought me! +Yes, but you've gotta sit down in the end so +Well have you got anything to hold that? +That's er +Oh yes. +we've got a pair like that. +Ooh! +You know that teapot we had on our Welsh dresser? +Yeah. +Some man came +Oh. +round, well came round earlier in the year, we sold him bits. +Oh! +Ten pounds! +Ah, he'd got a +Ten pounds for that old +For tha that +teapot? +that tea, that, you know, ten +I remember. +pounds. +It didn't really match the things on our Welsh dresser. +He said, I'll give you ten pounds for that. +Mm. +So I said, you might as well. +Might have been worth a thousand! +I doubt it! +Do you watch the Antique +Well I +Roadshow? +Yes. +it's too. +I , I don't know what deciding though, I says, funny enough I said there were one just like this at Millaires and I didn't qualify where it was, but it he latched on to it and it's er a posh place, you know,Millaires +Mhm. +Yeah. +Mhm. +one of these historic +Yeah. +Mhm. +and only like a village but er +Yeah. +very old, see I said, there one in antique shop exactly like that, but I said, but it were cracked and they wanted twenty six pound for it. +Mm! +I said, I don't know whether it's, they've sold it. +As soon as I said that, he said I'll give you ten pound. +He went anyway and I thought we might as well +have the ten pound . +Yeah! +Because,i it was we've got too many bits on the Welsh dresser anyway. +Well , yeah, well yes if you've got er . +But I suppose +Well I couldn't +Well I I +get my wedding ring on. +I +Yeah. +Oh! +er +Oh you sold him some +Still +bi bits of rubbish ! +Ooh it's a bit wonky int it? +Well I think well it is anyway, I mean I've got a swollen wrist. +Mm. +It's by the time I could get my gloves on . +It's swollen +It's swollen there isn't it? +there. +Yeah. +That's where it hurt most, the thumb. +Yeah. +And that +You know that +and that +you just +third one. +Mm! +It never hurt on the arm. +It does sometimes now. +Did you see the football match last night? +No. +A footballer done the same thing. +And this morning +We only switched the last few minutes on. +and this morning on the news, said he's broken it, they said +Broken there. +a dislocated so so shoulder +Shoulder. +said there is the a surgeon in the er, audience? +Orthopaedic one, yeah. +But er, this morning they said it's a broken wrist. +I said, he's done what you do put his fist out to hold him +Yeah. +and +For for +Mm. +support. +Yeah. +Yes it's er +I know. +it's still swollen now int it? +Yeah. +Yes. +And your fingers are +Ooh yeah! +aren't they? +Ooh! +Ya! +Mind you, they said they +yeah, well a bit on the other hand. +And that wrist is. +Ooh yes! +A bit like, I like all this a +And you're using it now are you? +Yes. +A bit. +Yeah. +Yes. +I like all this and that bit but she has er, you end up to go on the dirty little foxes and you get on and there's so ,runny nosed yobbo kid about twelve, gets on +and sits on his foot! +On his bottom. +Yeah. +Oh aye. +Yeah. +Oh yeah! +Oh I've seen that! +But yo , and you're in +Yeah! +your best sort of coat! +They only ever care if it's +Yes! +Mm! +Well why do they sit on their foot for? +Well they do don't they? +Oh yeah. +Well pull your scarf on then. +Did you hear this morning's news Kath? +Pardon? +Did you hear this morning's news? +No. +The er erm +Don't you have the news on in the morning? +No. +er +Well I, well I +what do they call +in the morning ! +what do they call these mountain bikes? +Mountai , I don't what they're called. +Mountain bikes aren't they? +The mountain bikes. +Two lads, went up to them and says get off that bike or we'll pull you off! +He got off and they went off with it! +He left it? +And it's a brand new mountain bike! +Yeah. +Well Amanda, er +Just like that! +Neil's had his stolen you know! +No! +But just like that! +And they +Yeah, well it, it was locked up in the shed and the shed was +You're not safe anywhere are you really? +locked! +Mm! +And then er he he claimed and he go , he had a new one +Oh. +and then er they they found it at the polic , the police station +They found one didn't they? +well, somebody found it down by the river just at the back of where they live so it must have been somebody round about +Mm. +who had it. +Just watch them getting +Mm. +it here and +Yeah so +nothing at all safe. +Maggie's got it now, but nobody uses it. +Well that's alright Kath, you see +No nobody uses it. +but er +Well the kids round our way they have bikes but they never go anywhere on them just take to go and do a paper round. +well you take a two hundred and forty quid +Mm. +bike and +Mm. +then they'll come on this morning, if you have half a pint of beer you're over the odds, you'll be pinched. +Mm! +And when you think that his bike be more important +Yep. +than me having half +Than you . +a pint of beer. +? +Yes, it was eight +I'm waiting for a new one. +We want a new one. +In fact having a new one. +Nice! +It's permanently like that. +It's been +Oh is it? +sitting there shuffling my feet. +Oh is it? +Oh! +It's er +bit of arthritis in it I think, in the rug. +In my rug, yeah ! +Or ruggitis in it! +Oh dear! +Well it's gonna be nice! +Yes it is, yeah. +Yes th , I'm glad +Yeah. +we came out. +There's a lot of wet though in the country roads. +Oh yeah. +Where do you go shopping, Tesco? +Tesco, yeah. +Er, only been there two or three times and we had miles to walk to the shop ! +Ah! +We went on one car park and we couldn't find it ! +Ah. +Well we park right beside it. +Well I know you can now +Yeah. +we ought to have driven +Lovely! +driven round until we had found it. +Well, yeah , there's four car parks, you see. +Yes I know, well we, we must +So th +have parked, parked on +Yeah. +the one furthest +Yeah. +away. +That's a good picture int it? +Yeah , we suddenly saw it +Well I'm glad you said it +in . +Very good, that is! +I know. +Nice to have, isn't it, that? +Yes. +Ah well they were down in the garden we said +They were offering it around. +oh we might +Yes. +as well. +Look at my birds though. +That's a giveaway int it? +All, all the pigeons and all the +The bird there. +Yeah. +I think +Yeah. +it was taken last July fortnight because Jackie and Tom were away and that +Mm. +bit was all +Oh! +bit dried up +Yeah. +That's that car that was smashed up, you saw. +Yeah? +That's before it was smashed up. +But before that's +Yeah. +they the same? +Look in that garden look. +Yeah. +They have two gardeners comes round. +Oh yeah. +Yes yours looks good! +Mm. +Really lovely aren't they? +That one's alright but i it's it's all grey look. +Dried up like. +Yeah that . +And i is this the house that's got the extension on? +Is that one or the one o over the road? +No that you mean, near the back of the gardens? +Mm. +Ah! +That's the one. +Oh that's, oh course it is! +That's the back, yeah. +That's the back, yes. +That's the back. +That's right. +Yeah. +Hey! +You see this but she said, ooh, I've had, didn't tell you, I've had the burglars! +I said, what's the matter with your lad's wrist? +She says he's er he's fell over in the, you know, and er, he he's al , he were always running, he gets on left side onto us runs to this corner, calls out to the missus +He did. +look see that one there, that one there. +Oh yes! +Yeah. +he were running up and down the little bugger! +Look at that. +Trying to fall. +You can't beat them, you know, they know all the +Oh! +They know +Oh! +all the answers +I know. +don't they? +All the tricks of the +They know the +trade. +They know exactly how to re +And if they don't know, there's somebody to advise them. +Yes. +Yeah. +They'll know exactly +Well +how to run the country +and they +shortly! +We were er grumbling about that his wrecked being outside. +He'd, somebody advised him because if it hadn't got a license number plate on +That's it. +Mm. +it couldn't, it shouldn't have been left out there. +Ah. +Mm. +He had taken a le , he had a taken a license off, he'd got his money back on his license. +Mm. +Oh! +Mm. +He's done it before has +Still on, but he's had it taken, he had it taken away last week. +Ah! +Mm. +Mm. +Whether +somebody cottoned on or +Ah! +I don't know but +But you sho +somebody had told him that. +It must be taxed if it's on +According to +the road. +Ye , well that's +Yeah. +what Jackie on the end the road said. +Even if it's standing on the road. +I do it looks blue if you turn it somewhat. +Yeah. +Yes it does. +It does. +Yeah. +Yeah. +Except it lo it looks black +there. +Look there in the +Yes. +shade. +Yeah, you got a bit +Yeah, you can tell it's blue. +Oh yes, it's in the shade. +The sun shining on it. +isn't it? +Yes. +You can just see it. +See it. +Just see it, yeah. +Yeah. +See that park's black and yet it's that blue. +Mm! +Mm. +Yes. +Yeah. +Come along then. +Mm! +If we've got to get to . +The part I like. +Lovely that! +The , that one who's had the factory built, look at his front garden! +And how many , did they do the whole estate or +Well he's done a lot, because we were on the bus on Tuesday, and er couple who live in which is one of those roads up +Yeah. +Aha. +er, she said that they'd been to the said this man had been to her house. +Oh! +And but they wouldn't buy it. +Yes! +That was the windows you can see? +Well Madge +Well I +can't see, er can't see really can you? +And you're getting a reflection +No I can't see this. +from these . +Mm! +Ooh I say! +I know. +And this is all +I know what it, I know what it costs for that sort of wood. +And +Yeah. +the framing. +Yeah! +Yeah. +Yeah! +It's lovely! +Perhaps if you don't have a reflection you see better +I, I can't +No Madge can't see. +I really can't, no. +Yeah. +Well there's jus +Especially this light is the worst. +In win +In the winter,yo , like you know. +Yes. +Anyway. +Ah! +Ah! +Ah! +We're recording what you say on there. +You don't mind do you? +What's that fo , what was that? +It's for market research. +Er the , the +Oh! +the ge , powers that be are worried about the er +No they're not! +English language dying out. +Out. +Oh, well, yeah! +So now they're wrote to us picking them, doctors and people like us that are +Well in in each category. +people like us that are +A retired couple who +university sort of people. +Yeah. +Well they're all different. +No! +Yeah. +She wants somebody from each +a broad +Yeah. +Oh! +And they want to find out if er, this pigeon +English from the +No they don't ! +this pigeon English is working into the system. +Yeah. +Well, I think it is! +Well, there you see! +Tom thinks +Yeah. +the same. +Ooh yes! +I do. +Evelyn she's so dogmatic! +A dreadful ! +Ooh no! +They wouldn't do a thing like that! +All these they want to +It's just this +bring their own +Course they would! +and you see +Course they do! +of language don't they? +Yeah. +Look at +Ooh! +look at the Americanisms we've got, included in the dictionary +Yes! +Yes! +Yeah. +Yes! +now! +Yeah. +Yeah. +Which weren't in thirty years ago. +Ooh they say, er the Queen said er she said often, for often well yo , I thought she'd be well on the +form. +Oh! +Yeah. +And they're all saying it now on telly, often. +Of , often. +Yeah. +Alright. +Are you cleaning the +Yeah. +windows? +Yeah. +I can't clean windows! +Oh I, don't do them with a window leather, I do them with +Ah!ah, Windolene +Mm. +Sainsburys stuff +Oh I've not wo , I get that from, oh it's ever so good that is! +What's that? +I get it from down at the hardware shop. +It +I've had Sainsburys and everything and the windows +Oh I've had that Tinkerbell and and er stuff years ago. +No! +The best I've ever had. +What's that? +It's about a pound. +Well it was +Mm. +the last one I, I want another one. +With ammonia? +Ooh mine +Yeah. +had got er vinegar in. +No. +You squeeze it on, just +Yeah. +Like, I've got +you know +one like that. +Ain't done this one yet. +What is this +Ah ! +well that bloody bird's been again! +Oh no it's not it's the . +The birds are marking up that window there! +Eh! +alright? +Can see the sun through the windows! +Yes, he this morning. +Ah but you read that. +It's er +Yeah. +She's been having it off with him! +er Sarah. +Well that happened two years ago didn't it? +Eighteen months ago? +Sh er +Er , did you see the programme +What's that Arthur? +of all those sheep being tu , treading on each other,uri urinating on each other on top of a lorry going to France? +No. +They want to send them dead but they will have it send them alive. +And er you know, I often think if er the sheep knew what the farmers were up to they'd grow teeth wouldn't they? +They'd have them all! +Well I think it's I think it's terrible! +They, I mean if they were, if they were tigers they wouldn't do it would they? +It puts you off eating meat altogether! +Does. +Yeah. +Arthur's nearly vegetarian now! +We saw one er last night, or the night before +Oh aye. +and killing pigs +You've gotta think strains of er +pigs, so that they just lie there +of fruit, vegetables and animals and you know and er +Yeah. +Ooh! +It were awful! +The the laboratories that created them were . +Yeah. +Well +Ooh! +It, it were, it was awful what was on +That's +the other, last night! +Was it last night? +Go to the +No it was +still, I expect it does. +Yeah it was last night. +Did you see the football match? +Yeah. +Tha , well you didn't see much of it did you? +Oh no not +We only saw the last +No. +few minutes of it. +Oh yeah , I was +Didn't you see +I was washing some bottles off. +Didn't you see the +Started making +Madge. +a brew again. +One of the footballers did the same as Evelyn. +He, he, he leaped onto somebody in the goal mouth where the post was and i , he turned on a, off the other way in the post, and he landed like that and +Oh. +and, then they said, is there a orthopaedic surgeon in the audience? +In the crowd. +This boy is lose +Oh. +he's broke his arm. +Chapman. +Ah! +On his hand it was. +Lee Chapman. +Yeah. +And he's er +Er, you know, he saved hisself with this er +Yeah. +Of course, you automatically if you're falling you put your hands out don't you +Yeah. +to save yourself? +Yeah. +Yeah. +Somebody told Evelyn they got a, she got a thousand pounds for slipping on pavement. +Oh! +Yeah. +But you but you gotta prove the negligence. +You gotta prove , well I I couldn't see +Yeah. +anything that I slipped on. +No. +No. +You know why? +Not a cabbage leaf or there wasn't orange peel +Madge. +so +Your sister's a bit naive! +Er, you look she falls, er, two or three rush to her, the stall holder fetches a chair, they're all round her his son's picking up the bit she slipped on. +Yes. +Course he does! +Yes! +Ooh yes! +She'd fallen , she'd +But why go to all that? +Yeah. +Ah! +But I mean +Ooh yes! +that's the way I'd work. +Yeah. +Yes! +That shows how crafty you are then doesn't it! +Yeah well. +I'm not like that, I can't, I can't +You think too much. +you know +I always think now +Oh I don't know. +what's the motive? +Er yes, well +Afterwards then, don't you? +You know how market people think do you? +Well! +Yeah you do! +Mm. +Er +Yeah, so I mean, it's horrible what they do to animals isn't it? +Oh it is! +Yeah! +Oh! +It is. +Pigs, they just lie there and get fat! +Well what's the meat going to be like? +Yeah. +Eh? +Yeah. +And what are we going to be like eating it? +Well pork isn't an any now is it? +Well No diet in it now. +Nothing is it? +Er, and it's hard! +It never used to be hard! +a tender bit of pork. +Well it's, it used to melt in your mouth hadn't it? +Yes. +And it don't smell +And all this. +the same when it's cooking either +No! +does it? +Loin of pork +Yeah. +you know, roasted +It used to be +When our +beautiful! +melt in your mouth! +when were at home we had to have it every week didn't we? +Yeah. +Cos they didn't like beef. +Didn't like mutton, lamb. +They like beef now. +I don't like +Well you know that +beef. +you know that teapot we have on the Welsh dresser like a cockerel? +Yeah. +Well I've got +Er you get some man come and gave me ten pound for it. +What's it going? +Yeah. +He came to get it. +We just met him today. +Apparently he brought somebody who wa , who was +Oh! +interested in that little what is it? +That wa the little +? +No. +The little thing on the front in the front. +That's what he came to see. +That one you mended the foot of. +I don't know what you call, that little old man. +Oh right! +Yeah, they got +He came +that. +in a way se , he came to look at that. +Yeah. +But anyway he wasn't interested. +Then he saw the +He said it were continental something and th +Yeah. +And then he he saw this Welsh dresser, he said I'll give you ten pounds for that. +Yeah. +And, I've got too many things on the Welsh dresser anyway. +And he didn't leave a card. +And they always need dusting don't they? +So, I thought, ooh ten pound! +Might as well have it! +Have it! +Yeah! +Too true! +Well +I mean I've we're always breaking the blooming things! +Things. +Ye , well you've got too +Yeah. +many you do. +You do. +I mean, you broke one of my best wine glasses the other day! +Yeah. +One day so you +But +bought it. +it slipped. +Er you're only supposed to drink +I said to him where's my wine glass? +Yeah. +Yes, but when you're working, like and you +Next thing I knew I heard a crash +Crash. +when you're bricklaying and gardening all the works +That's why I just keep my old ones up there that we use every da , er, you know +Well I +and I've got my best all in the sideboard +I'd got some +cupboard. +I'd got some old but we broke all the old ones, so we're having to use the best +Yeah ! +She always told +Yeah. +me that, when visitors come you, you gi , you give them the +Give them +old ones in case they +No I don't! +drop them! +Don't stir ! +Oh dear! +No but when you're at work Madge, er, bricklaying and er filing your hands are rough now they're like +Yeah. +silk +Yeah. +And they slip. +I pick something up +Yeah. +and being eighty +It slips. +two as well, you +Slip! +can't afford +Yeah. +to still! +Yeah. +Oh well. +Well that's what I do. +And you sold half your ring and all, didn't you want to cut up ? +Oh yes. +Well they made such a mess of this ring! +Then when +Are you had a new one? +I know you +I lo , no. +Not yet. +I haven't got my wedding ring on yet! +Oh have you? +No. +No. +Because we got that off. +Because +Yeah. +the minute I saw what a mess she'd made +Oh. +of the engagement ring. +She had about three tries, nicks! +Ridiculous int it! +Ah! +You were lucky they ne +And I said I think I think you'll get my wedding off without cutting it. +So, she got a bit more soft soap +all that +so +Ka , er Madge +Mm? +What is it? +Er you'll you'll make it rough, like. +What is it? +And er , it's my +Oh! +microphone. +Ooh! +And er +Oh and you, you were saying you +I got the +you're doing it +Yeah. +while we Oh +Yeah. +heck! +I didn't realise that! +Well that's the best thing,yo you shouldn't er you don't have to be aware. +Oh! +You ought to have told me! +Well just +And er +said anything! +So they got my wedding ring off, but I still can't get it on. +How awful! +But they erm it's really +Mind you, it's still +Mind you , it's not +swollen. +It's +Yeah , it's still swollen. +you +Yes. +just down there. +Oh it'll be a +But er +long time. +You know when yours when was swollen er +Mind you, that's where I forget I, I know my fingers look like black puddings! +Ooh mine look terrible! +Yeah. +, you know, I thought ooh +I couldn't always swi , I couldn't even switch a light till +No. +last week! +You couldn't? +No. +But er +No. +since you done it we've been looking in jewellers' shops when I go, I go up town twice a week with her, you know, carry all the bags, and er we're looking in the jewellers' shop and some old, some lady stood there and, she were looking I says, come on they don't wear marriage ri , wedding rings there! +You ought to have seen the old girl! +No, but cos there there, it feels a bit +bit funny! +Does it? +Cos then there's nothing +Yeah. +that you know, no circulation there. +Yeah. +Ah! +Ah! +In that side of my thumb. +It's cold. +It's cold. +Just outside of my thumb. +In your thumb. +It's different from that side. +Ah! +Just that bit. +Perhaps I forget, you see. +Yeah, turn it straight like this. +Right. +Mm. +Now can you do this? +You should keep rubbing it. +Lo look, like that? +No! +Not twist that look, sidewards, that way, that way, that way. +Mm. +No. +You can't can you? +No I can't do that. +No, not do that. +Well the time's young yet, you know for any anything like that. +Yeah, oh it is really. +That's it. +Oh aye, it'll take +Yes. +a long time to +Mm. +er +Oh I can I don't carry two cups I ca , daren't carry a cup and saucer +No. +in that hand. +No. +And one in the other. +Ooh no! +No. +No. +I daren't er +No. +But our, our +But I can I can +Tom, how on earth she will been round all of these, do you know I've, I'm like this +I know! +well after he's been all this while. +I told, I told her time! +Yes, but half +the time you've got library books as well. +We go in the town, I'm in the hairdresser +Yes but you won't +and I say we're going, getting shopping only fruit and veg in the market then he comes back with about four big library books! +Well they weigh a ton, so +So +Yes, anyway +Eve, but listen, when you've been out with me on a Monday I've said to you you've only had a cauliflower +and yo apples there. +Put it in there and . +That was a good morning's work really. +Got the shopping done for the next fortnight. +Got a few more voices on for the tape. +Why I had my dinner, I haven't got the same as you. +Oh! +I had that meat that you +You've got +didn't like, yesterday and some rice. +You've got chicken fricassee I suppose. +No! +You've got shepherd's pie. +I can see, well that meat wasn't as good as it used to usually get +No I I ge , there was lump o +And yet it was +left and I cut it up this morning before you got up and I couldn't cut it with the scissors! +So I've, I I did some rice and ha had it, but might just as well have thrown it away. +So I made you, I'd got +Mm. +some other beef. +What's that like? +Yeah! +That's alright is it? +Mm. +Eh! +Guess who rang while you were out in +Mm. +the garden? +Joan. +George. +Ah! +I said, oh, we were only talking about you yesterday . +What's he say? +He says he's feeling a lot better and he's back on the road. +Mm. +So I shouldn't think he's been driving for some time and +No. +he's back from Catherine's. +Is he coming? +I sa I said erm well, how about coming for lunch one day? +Oh! +He said, yes, I will do. +He said erm I ca , I can't make arrangements much in advance because I never know how I'm feeling. +Mm. +He seems to me, a bit like Joan doesn't it? +Yeah it probably is with the trauma of losing his wife. +So er anyway +Yeah. +he sa he said I'll keep in touch. +Yeah well he's been looking after her for, for years ain't he? +Mm. +So e e , he said I'll keep in touch. +And I said, oh well if I don't hear from you I'll ring you again and perhaps we can arrange something. +So er, he was going to +Did you, so you didn't tell him I'd like him to see my paintings? +Well I +What else did George say apart from the fact will he come and see the paintings do you think? +Mm! +Yes, he said erm he'll keep in touch now, he's feeling better and erm he was going friendship ha toni this afternoon and he was taking a an lady from across the road so he's . +He'll still run his car then. +Yes. +He said he's back on the road so presumably he's erm +Not been driving. +No. +Well probably in his sa state +Mm. +of health he didn't license the car. +Just go and get the other . +At least we've poured your tea and a have you? +Is that better? +I think we did a good morning's work then. +Yeah. +Well I think being outside in the garden and cleaning +Mm. +the car perhaps helped your cold a bit, do you think? +Possibly. +Have another dose of that erm +Mm. +buttercup syrup. +What's it got in? +I don't know, but it's good. +The big the big pigeons down look. +Mm. +Ooh it's a lovely day today. +Mm. +I think we did well to wait until now do you? +Mm mm! +So, I'll be alright to go to the hairdresser myself in the morning. +No you won't. +Oh yes I will! +I was alright this morning. +I haven't got anything +Yeah. +to carry. +So, I'm going on my own tomorrow. +Well +Well you +you can do a bit of taping of those records. +you got the man to help you on with your coat. +There's nothing . +Italian, Canadian +There was two big ones, look! +There was three there the other day. +I thought you said you were going easy on that seed? +Mm. +That's the old seed they're taken there +Well that doesn't I know! +But you didn't buy that till Tuesday! +It's only Thursday now! +It'll last till Monday. +Well you didn't want them sitting till dark then go off did you? +Well you, put about ten piles out! +Well if there's three er nations thrown into one, how did they get here? +Two nations! +Italian, Canadian, and they're British. +I didn't say that was a British. +I don't know what nationality is that. +Well Canadian you know might have been that his father was in the Canadian army in the war. +Well his brother's in the army. +Anyway +When I was a lad a man went in the ar , he hooked up with the army if he'd got no trade and no hope +Oh! +of a job +Well they won't have them now will they? +Or if he'd, er been thieving. +They won't have those sort in I mean, look, they wouldn't have Robert in would they? +I mean, he hadn't really got any educational qualifications and +No. +then they said he was a bit too thin, not, not so +Robust enough. +robust enough. +Another pigeon come in. +I told you there's three! +Oh! +We don't want a colony of those. +I shall have it . +Have a drop of that +I'm going to have some more of that medicine. +Said three times a day. +Are you going to have a dose now? +Mm. +When I haven't got my dinner down. +Do you want any more? +No. +.Finish erm +I think I'll have an orange to finish off my +Mm. +What do you make of this play do you think? +Well well it's an old thing i it's they've raked old +Oh well they always do rake +old things back. +stir the mud up don't they? +I've not read the paper anyway yet. +I think they want to sell the papers on Saturday. +I don't think people buy it so much on have you seen, they're going to give you a weeks' television +Yeah. +Oh that's good. +programmes, look. +You've just turned it over. +I can you turned two pages over. +Look. +What's the idea? +So they sell more papers on Saturday. +I don't think they sell so many. +Where? +No, the next page. +Mm mm. +I saw you as you turned some over. +How have we done? +No! +How would +you feel ? +Bloody rough! +But they don't come back again. +Especially with this er aids thing. +There! +Free seven day T V guide, there are. +Especially with this aid business. +Eh? +You don't know who else he's been with do you? +Normally, you know where your husband's been but if the husband's away and you go in you don't know where he's been do you? +Mm. +If I were a girl I wouldn't let a man go near me! +Mm. +Alright. +Maxwell's son loses a thousand a minute on roulette! +I see. +Must have some money then. +No you're hurting me! +Stop! +Yeah. +Do you want half this orange? +Mm. +Cut me a slice +They're big ones. +if you like. +It it soothes your throat. +It's soothing my throat. +I don't mean, no. +That's alright innit? +Well I always thought the paper was better because you have to,sa so many things don't you? +Mind you, they did have all the satellite and all that didn't we? +You seen all these page they done? +It's not the paper it was. +joints, and muscle . +And what does it say about your shoulder? +Oh look! +You could put it straight down. +Well we've got the Radio Times in the other room. +They made a bloody good start without putting in ink! +I know that one about today's news. +We've got a Radio Times! +Yeah, you , well you can see these all in one go. +Clint Eastwood nine forty . +I'm not sitting up to that. +Twenty to ten. +I know, but it'll be midnight before it finishes won't it? +Are they all gone er are they all gone? +No, the big ones are still there. +Did you speak to Jackie, did you say? +No, I, I +Or, oh! +was in the dressing room and Arabian Nights, two o'clock . +Oh we've missed that! +It's three o'clock now. +I liked Kath's hall didn't you? +You liked what? +Kath's hall. +Yo, yeah but +Unusual wasn't it, how he'd done it! +It's the same place though int it when er +Well Is there anything any good on? +Only the Arabian Nights at two and that's gone. +Well I don't like those things. +And then there's Cli , Clint Eastwood at twenty to ten. +Nothing in between? +No. +Well, the garden certainly looks better for your little clear up +Well it looks +doesn't it? +looks tidier doesn't it? +Well I don't think you'd done it since Christmas had you? +Since Christmas, aye. +Dad's Army at eight . +That's on the satellite. +Comedy channel. +Mm. +Wasn't very good last week, really was it? +No. +They're all grown now ain't they? +Mm. +The +Tom +doctor said he'd got a collar on his neck again didn't he? +Mm. +I meant to ask him and erm well I got er interrupted. +It was in there when we went? +Madge was cleaning the windows! +Mm. +Er, with a broken arm. +She hadn't got a broken arm. +Well she did have. +That was years ago! +I know! +But it was that the arm she were using. +I expect so. +It was the right that she broke. +Lord! +I think that's, that's a fire down there! +Fire smoke isn't it? +Yeah, perhaps burning er winter rubbish. +Card boxes and things. +But they make dustbins big enough now int it? +Now, yes. +I mean there's no, no, no smoke +Mm. +on this end so it must be. +You haven't drunk your beer. +It looks, have you swi switched, it is switched on, what you doing? +Oh it is oh! +Press that black button. +in here. +Aren't you too hot? +Yes I am. +Switch +Ooh! +it off now then. +I've switched +it on. +Er er, I mean switch that. +Oh! +I think that er a bit of fresh air might have done me good do you? +I think that butter +What the buttercup mixture? +this morning. +You think it do you want another dose? +Go and clear my throat +Er no it's not, it's not time yet. +See if, my throat feels dry. +Coughing bad this morning weren't I? +Mm. +Well you oh it says if you have a dose last thing at night it helps you sleep. +This er ? +It might. +Madge? +Yes. +Oh has she been taking it then? +Well she sa says it's the best that she's had lately. +Does she take it regular? +Yes. +Although I've heard of it before. +They were new just before Christmas! +Oh! +The colour seems to come out of there don't it? +I don't mind them that colour really. +No, it's alright. +If you get them too red +You don't see them do you? +er,i it's dar , too, they're too dark. +Oh, that's how I feel now! +Kath's carpet keeps well doesn't it? +I meant to ask her if she'd got a Vax machine because +And they don't take their shoes off when they go in, cos we saw them go in didn't +Mm. +we? +I mean er +Where did they go, in the village? +I mean that carpet was at the other house. +She's had it ever since she's been in that house. +Where did they go, to the village shops? +No. +They went to Tesco on Burnham Leas +You never go there do you? +No. +Well it's you don't like going that district do you? +Anyway, I never did like Tescos much as Sainsburys. +Sa , Sainsburys a very good name! +Well I think Tesco have gone up-market from what they were years ago. +But erm Kath's little vase. +Batteries not included. +Er can you get ? +So there's no batteries in there? +No, you have to go and buy your own batteries. +Oh. +Er can you did I have my sugar? +Well, what kind of batteries, big ones or little ones? +Cos we've got any of them. +We've got big ones or little ones haven't +I don't think you need any sugar do you? +we mummy? +Yeah. +We've got loads of batteries floating round at the moment. +We've got an old +I don't think there's any milk in there. +I haven't got any sugar cos I didn't. +I've seen two little ones mum. +You don't need sugar necessarily do you? +Yeah. +There. +Don't take it all in the same place. +Mix it about around a bit. +Hope you appreciate the best pottery to celebrate occasion. +China? +Oh yes dear. +I hadn't noticed to be honest. +It was deliberately . +I'm impressed. +You mean it wasn't cos the last lot wasn't washed up? +No no no no no I thought a special celebration. +Need the best only. +We all all gave you cutters didn't we? +You did didn't you? +It was very nice. +I think it was a hint +But I didn't know +that we need some extra cooking going on in this house. +I didn't know daddy gave me you this film. +Mm. +Mum, there's a special one here because it's you will have to be +Mm. +I gave you that film. +Can I have half ? +Yes, you can have half. +I have to have one. +Oh look, grandma's sent me something that you can push out to stand up. +No that's mine. +Can I have a look? +No that's mine. +You have to push those things out +The half? +Yeah. +and then they stand up. +A frog? +Mm. +A rabbit +He had the other half. +You don't see bunnies with do you? +You don't see ducks with a bow-tie on. +Just those sharing ones left. +That's the sharing one. +Yes. +You see ducks with bow-ties on? +Mum, have you ever seen a duck with a bow-tie on? +No. +ducks with a bow-tie on do you? +And a dog with a ? +Mummy. +Mm. +Mummy. +Yeah? +An owl waiter +That's a cherry one. +Is it? +Right. +Did you crack this out? +Just a that was clever. +This is just a friendly hi and then inside it says from I, and she's made it into Irene. +No, we'll we'll wait a bit. +That's the sharing one. +Why is it a sharing one? +Why's it not mine? +That one's mummy's and that one's yours. +Th oh that's the sharing one. +share a bowl with you. +Oh. +I'm going to share that bowl with you. +You're gonna share this one with you. +Mm. +That's all mummy's actually. +It's granny and grandpa with a great big bouquet of flowers there. +Come on! +What? +I'm doing my best, but I can't eat and open cards at the same time. +Have you opened all of the presents mum? +Mm. +Except this one. +Oh good. +And I had swimsuit from grandma do you remember? +Mm. +Whoa! +Ah +Money from Auntie Mavis. +She always sends money to us doesn't she? +I know. +It's very nice isn't it? +Mm. +So you get more money then. +The next person in our family is me birthday. +Isn't it? +Oh dear. +Auntie Mavis has only been out for five to ten minutes twice cos of her knee. +Really? +You know she's got a funny knee? +Mm. +I've finished +So how did she this letter. +Did she have to go ? +Which day we +How did she get a letter mum? +Which day? +Erm +How did that letter? +Which which day is it? +It's Tuesday. +Tuesday. +It's Holly Cottage day. +It is. +You're going to Holly Cottage. +Christopher goes to school. +I'll go to work. +And you're +And mummy will have a whale of a time. +What are you gonna do? +But +What? +it's going to be something special happening at lunchtime is it? +Mm. +I'm gonna come for you for lunch from school. +Mm. +And we're going to go out for lunch. +Where are we going to go? +Tesco's. +Tesco's? +That'll be nice . +I won't be there. +It'll be just you and Timothy and mummy and grandma. +Cottage pie? +All of us? +Yeah. +Not me cos I'll be at work. +But the rest of you. +I love cottage pie. +But daddy's having lunch at work, aren't you daddy? +I think so. +That's supposed to be the idea. +special at work. +I've had I love cottage pie. +Look at all those sweet looking cats. +Where? +There, on that card. +When we're in Tesco's we'll have to make sure we've bought the ingredients for all these biscuits we're gonna be making for the rest of the +Erm mixing the big bits bits bits bits. +I'm impressed. +I don't think I've ever had a card from Keith and Sue before. +How did they know? +Mum to make the eyes mum we could have sultanas. +To make the eyes. +It's known as a hippo-bath-day on this one. +Is it? +Hippo-bath! +Mum, just one more letter is there? +Mhm. +No, you've finished that. +Can you what? +Watch something on the telly? +Is it not exciting enough having me open my presents for you? +Ah a letter this time. +Ooh. +Mummy it's a clever letter. +Happy birthday birthday er no it says happy birthday. +We haven't heard if Jill has got our present from us. +I mean +Haven't we? +Oh +A very happy birthday. +Do you think it's cos she hasn't? +Mum it says happy birthday. +A very happy birthday +That wasn't all that long ago was it? +No, but when she sent this you'd think that maybe she would put in it +Mummy. +by the way, thank you for +This is a sharing one. +That's a sharing one, yes. +That is the sharing one mummy. +That's the sharing one with you for me. +Mm. +And me. +No. +Yes, I want a square. +And you want a square and mummy want a square. +No that's mummy's that one. +No. +It's a sharing one. +It's mine. +There's nothing in it. +Is that the ? +Nothing in it? +No. +Yes there is. +There is really. +May I have some more to eat? +there, isn't it mum? +Ooh. +Ooh er. +A purse. +Purse +Mum. +Here you are. +A weeny weeny purse. +Foam bath gel. +margarine. +Gel? +Forget-me-nots. +Three sachets. +These is not gonna be enough. +Forget-me-not +Three sachets of Woods of Windsor concentrated foam bath gel. +Empty the contents of one sachet under running hot water and enjoy a fragrant relaxing bath in the luxurious foam with Tim helping you get washed. +I'm sure it +Who +Danielle . +This looks very superior. +Mummy, margarine for you. +What is it? +Don't put that in the way. +Sorry. +It's a +Cos look. +Don't put that in the way. +Thank you. +Is it a ? +Mum did you get that necklace for your birthday? +Yes. +But why did you get it too late? +What do you mean too late? +I got it early. +I got all these things early cos when I was at granny and grandpa's they gave me some money. +And I was able to go and shop without everybody else helping. +Remember on that day we went on that minibus down to the +You all went on the minibus and the train +station. +with daddy and I swanned around the shops. +Daddy? +Mm. +Remember? +With daddy and you. +With daddy. +Yeah. +You were with me, do you remember? +We went on that minibus +And I went round the shops. +looked at some trains and then went back on the D M U. +You were with me. +That's right, and you were with me. +That's right. +Well while we were doing that mummy was being all these clothes ready for her birthday. +So she's looking very very smart today. +And my swimsuit. +Do you remember I bought my swimsuit, my blue one? +Are you wearing it? +Well I'm not wearing a swimsuit but I'm wearing the other things. +What about showing daddy it? +What, the swimsuit? +Mm. +He's already seen it . +Have you seen the new ? +Well well we haven't seen it. +but I think I've s seen actually swimming. +We haven't seen it. +Did you have it on when we were at Newtown baths? +Yes you have. +Yeah +I haven't. +I have. +Has Tim seen it? +Yeah. +Yes you have you silly. +I didn't I now. +You're not looking at it now. +Well has it got money in already, that purse? +Has it mum? +Has what got money in? +That purse. +It's not a purse love it's for erm soap and you know toothbrushes and things like that. +You haven't got margarine on. +you take your own you can take your own stuff +Why? +in your own bag now can't you? +I like it without. +What? +I can take my own stuff in my own bag, yes. +And I like ma mine without margarine. +What? +Erm +But does daddy have to share with us in our bag when we +Well we all share together don't we? +What? +We all share together really. +So I'm going to share with you in yours really? +Mum. +Well if it's a special occasion you would take it in your own. +Oh where's daddy's gone? +If you were going on holiday by yourself +Mm. +you would wouldn't you? +True. +But I can't think of an occasion when I'd go by myself . +What? +I can't think of a time when I would be going by myself in the near future. +I can't have marmalade. +Why can't you have marmalade? +Because I wanted daddy's. +Well leave that. +I wanted daddy's. +Oh I've put it away. +I want it. +Well you can't have it love. +What did he want? +He wants daddy's knife to use for the marmalade. +But he can't cos daddy's already put it in the kitchen. +But where is my toast? +In your tummy I expect. +But I had only half and where's the other half gone? +It's all in my tummy. +Has he had a whole? +He hasn't had any yet. +He's just trying to get it in. +Want this with daddy's knife. +Mum but where is my other half because I want another bit. +No. +What? +You haven't got one. +But I had half. +You're the, you're the little boy who was sick the other day. +And I don't want any +You've been sick. +But I haven't had anything on the other piece and I want something on. +Oh. +I didn't be sick. +I want +No you weren't sick were you? +Come on you, get that marmalade on there. +Shall I help you? +Think daddy's went in the washing. +I don't like my +The washing was on the and the bowl was +It feels too hot. +I don't like it . +Not now it's alright. +What? +Not now you're not. +Not now. +I am a bit there. +Oh. +I'm hot. +Feel it mum. +No you're not. +There. +Oh only normal. +I want a this knife. +But is it going away? +If you were cold you'd be dead. +If I have this knife +Mm. +What? +it goes all over +If you feel cold you'd be dead. +Why? +You just are. +Part of you being alive is that you're warm. +You have to be warm to be alive? +Mm. +Is that why you have radiators? +Mm. +But the people who go out in the cold all the time. +Well they've usually got er lots of clothes on haven't they? +But Tim hasn't +You haven't. +You've got pyjamas on and . +I've got a pirate's hat on. +You haven't got dressed. +Look I've got a pirate's hat on. +You you haven't got dressed. +I've got a pirate's hat on. +Nobody's got dressed yet. +Nobod yes you +Well I have. +Ah. +You haven't. +And you haven't. +I'm +I have. +my pirate's at on you if you haven't got dressed by now. +Mum I want marmalade to put on my toast. +You've eaten your toast. +But I want half. +You can't. +Want to tell daddy if it's gone. +Cos I don't know where it has gone to. +It's in your tummy. +Mum there's not more, there's more presents to come yet isn't there? +Is there? +Grandma hasn't given you anything. +Well grandma has cos she's given me a swimsuit. +Oh. +People keep giving me money you see and I keep going and spending it so so it's not quite like your birthday cos on your birthday you get lots of presents don't you? +Yeah. +Mm. +Hello mummy. +Hello daddy. +There are more yet. +Where's your +Erm don't look in +in the fridge. +There's something near the bottom of the fridge. +Don't look in the fridge near the bottom. +Well I mean you can look in the fridge but don't look to see what's near the bottom. +Right. +It's wra it's wrapped in a bag so. +Right. +Where? +I haven't even noticed you'd put something in there. +It must have been in there last night. +No. +Oh just this morning? +Yes. +Where've you been this morning? +Oh no no no I'd had this hidden somewhere else before you see. +Oh. +But then you thought you'd better put it in the fridge? +Yes. +It's it's been in the drawer. +Mm. +It's been in the drawer. +Not that particular I hope you won't tell mummy our secrets anyway. +Right. +I'll have a look. +It's these two that will go looking not me. +We could have a look. +No. +No no Erm erm +Yes dear? +We could have +gonna say? +I dunno. +I'll try and be home before tea, in reasonable time. +Shall we go and have a look at the other +Th be quiet. +because I want some toast. +You've had +Be quiet +He's had toast. +I want +Well you said you only wanted half. +I think he should only have half actually. +I want the other half. +You're gonna go out to at lunchtime. +Ooh. +Going out to lunch. +he can get back to normal he can come home and have a big bit of toast. +I wanted your knife. +No I want another half because I want something on the other one. +Haven't got my knife here have I? +I had no marmalade. +Well who's fault's that? +Not ours. +I don't want +That's your knife. +I found your knife. +Have you? +Okay, can you put it on the edge of your plate and then we'll have a song or +I want more toast . +What song would you like Christopher? +Put it through the hatch. +Actually it belongs on my plate Tim. +It's mummy's. +Give it to mummy. +It's mine. +Put it through the hatch. +Timothy. +It's mummy's +Thankyou. +Right. +Jesus' Love is Very Wonderful. +Or Who's the King of the Jungle. +Who which one would you like mummy? +I'd like Who's the King of the Jungle. +What do you want? +And you'd like Jesus' Love is Very Wonderful? +Right we'll have that. +We'll start with that one. +Jesus' love is very wonderful, Jesus' love is very wonderful, Jesus' love is very wonderful, oh wonderful love. +It's so high you can't get over it, so low you can't get under it, so wide you can't get round it. +Oh wonderful love +Who's that? +Who's the king of the jungle? +Ooh Ooh. +Who's the king of sea? +Bubble bubble bubble. +Who's the king of the universe? +The king of you and me. +I tell you J E S U S, yes he's the king of me he's the king of the universe, the jungle and the sea. +Bubble bubble bubble ooh ooh . +Mum, you don't blow violins. +I beg your pardon? +It's meant to be a drink of coke. +You need your eyes testing. +I drawed on that. +And it's . +It looks like a funny +Right. +Shall we have a prayer? +Mhm. +Ah I haven't had my song. +Well you can have a song in a minute when we've had a prayer. +Oh, why does that say on there? +Cos I need to go to work now because I'm gonna be late for work. +Right. +Right. +Heavenly father we thank you for mummy's birthday. +Thank you for all the fun and excitement we can share. +And please help us today as we go our different ways to work, to school, to nursery. +Please pray that you'll be with each one of us and that we'll enjoy today with grandma and all the different things we'll do. +You'll keep us safe and happy. +Amen. +Amen. +We went on the swing when we gardening. +Were you? +You went on the swing? +What song do you want Tim? +Bold. +Be bold. +Be bold. +Be bold. +Be strong. +Be strong. +For the lord your god is with you. +Be bold. +Be bold. +Be strong. +Be strong. +For the lord your god is with you. +I am not afraid, no no no. +I am not dismayed. +For I'm walking in faith and victory. +Come on and walk in faith and victory. +For the lord your god is with you. +Boom Boom . +Have you had any more tea mummy? +Do you want some more? +I think I'd quite like a little bit more please. +Right . +If you could pour some tea in the tea in the milk I mean I think I would like it . +In the milk? +Bubye everybody. +What are you doing to all my pressies? +Ooh +Goodbye mummy. +Have a wonderful day +Look mummy I can balance. +Look it's like a slide. +It's like a robot. +Look it stays up. +Mm. +Goodbye everybody. +Bubye. +It's like a robot. +You know how it +Don't lose the film will you? +It's it's it's like a robot. +We don't want we haven't lo we won't +Thank you for the card. +Goodbye Tim. +Do you want a kiss, or do you not? +lose it mummy. +You will make it lose. +Bubye everybody. +Bubye daddy. +Bubye daddy. +When I toast it doesn't drops on the floor outside. +Mum. +Mm. +I just say bubye mummy, daddy. +That's a triangle. +That's a triangle. +Be quick +Is that a triangle? +Be quick cos I want to say bubye daddy. +Go on then Tim +Go on then. +I want you come . +Look that's a triangle. +Come here and I'll show you. +He's gone. +He hasn't. +If you open the door quick. +Look that's a triangle that little bit. +Mm. +There you are, he's going now. +Come on, quick. +Oh dear +This is crazy. +Timothy come round this side please and you go round that side now. +Tim, this side please. +You're not to climb on there, you've got to go past it. +Why? +Because it's silly the way we're going on. +Oh. +Look. +Yes. +Just leave it and come and sit on your seat. +Ooh. +Come on. +Sit in on your seat. +You do need your seatbelt on. +Put it on please. +I know it's not very far, but even so. +If we have an accident you'll need it. +bump into another car. +put my stick in the porch. +You've put your stick in the porch? +Right, that's okay. +I've forgotten it. +Mum. +It's still there isn't it? +Why do you +It doesn't matter. +Don't worry, just leave it there. +Have you got yours in? +Is your seatbelt on? +No. +You'd best put it on quickly. +Mum +Well in the garage it's a little bit different because there's only the garage to hit isn't there? +So if you hit the garage you're going very very slowly and you might just give yourself a jolt but you wouldn't hurt yourself quite so much. +Mum what's the noise? +What's what noise? +That noise. +The car. +Car. +It's cos you're travelling in a Metro. +You're used to travelling in a Rover. +You're used to travelling in a Rover. +This one's all shaky. +It's so old. +But it does the job. +Gets us there. +too old. +Ah hey. +too old. +Think it's got too old. +No it's fine. +There we are, there's Mark's house. +Right. +Now have you got all your things Christopher that you need? +You stay there Tim. +Don't go undoing things. +I want to go in Christopher's seat. +No you just stay there cos you can get on Christopher's seat when we come home cos he won't be here. +Come on. +Can you shut the door. +Shut the door. +Sounds like in the bedroom up there. +Sorry +Ha thank you very much Mark. +Come in. +Thank you so much. +Don't be silly. +Stop it. +Sounds as though you're lively this morning. +Aah! +I think he's alright. +Are you better? +He was sick on Sunday. +By the time yesterday came round, by lunchtime he could have come really but . +You never quite know do you, how they're gonna +Oh no, no +He's gonna go swimming anyway so that'll put him back if +Yeah . +Okay. +Bye. +Ta ta. +Christopher hasn't shut the door. +Has he not shut the door? +Perhaps he's going to wave to us. +No I think they have shut the door, haven't they? +They haven't. +They haven't. +They haven't. +We'll go to Tesco's today. +I want to get some petrol. +Yeah. +Mm. +I wonder what you'll do at nursery today. +What? +I wonder what you will do at nursery today. +Hope it's still games. +Games? +There'll be some games there. +What's your favourite game? +Postman Pat. +Postman Pat snap? +Yeah. +You haven't played that for a bit have you? +Where's it gone? +It'll be in the drawers I expect. +You can always go and get them out, if you want to. +Where's it gone? +It'll be in the drawer. +Well where's it gone in the drawer? +Well I don't know. +Have you looked for it? +No. +Well if you go and look for it I expect you'll find it. +Do you think it'll be sand or water today? +What? +Do you think it will be sand or water today? +What? +Do you think there'll be sand or water today? +Think it will be sand. +You think it'll be sand. +Why do you think it's sand today? +It was water last week wasn't it? +So it probably will be sand this week I would think. +Yeah I think it will be sand. +Cos the water soaking wet. +No, you won't get soaking wet with sand. +Hopefully. +Cos with sand you don't get soaking +No. +We put water in our sand. +Do you? +What, so that it sticks together then it makes things? +Yeah. +Mm. +If it's dry it sort of won't stick together will it? +It won't make things. +Mind you it's nice for pouring. +You don't have to have sand but it's rather nice. +We some petrol. +No we're alright. +We don't need petrol right this minute. +Cos at lunchtime we're going to go to Tesco's. +And that will be a good place to get petrol cos it's cheap and we shall need a bit then. +We're not desperate for petrol but it would be nice if we filled up with it. +Cheap at Tesco's. +Yeah. +one person . +Going to be one. +Going to be one person. +Yeah. +Which means +One person driving. +Ooh. +There's an ambulance. +An ambulance is hospital. +Yeah. +Or it might be taking somebody to hospital. +Didn't seem in much of a hurry though did it? +So I don't think there was an emergency. +Come quickly cos there's a car on its way. +Where? +Here. +That red one. +It's gone now. +Yeah. +Come on then. +It's a dustbin day. +It is a dustbin day. +It's not a dustbin day for us though. +Our dustbin day was yesterday. +cars. +Can you hear the wood pigeon? +The ducks are here today. +No, no ducks out today. +They must be still asleep. +Where are you gonna go? +What are you gonna do? +there's someone +I know. +I know. +It's the same all the time. +Oh yeah +aren't they? +Where are you going to go? +I think it's the initial sort of shyness of it all, you know? +Going from one place to another. +Ooh. +She's a real teacher in school. +Sometimes. +Sometimes. +Are you a clever reader? +Would you like to get you a book? +Before you break a leg could you . +I can't get up. +She can't cope. +Oh dear. +What are we going to do now then? +What are you going to do Tim? +You don't know. +How about a Postman Pat jigsaw, ha? +Oh I know what you fancied on the way over wasn't it was it Postman Pat snap? +What are we gonna do dear? +Oh they're very smart trainers Dot. +Well it's my birthday you know Lil. +Oh is it today? +Mm. +Oh happy birthday. +So I'm wearing my birthday things, you know? +Thirty five today . +Happy birthday. +They're very nice. +Thank you very much. +They look very very expensive. +Well they weren't. +They looked it but I got +Adidas +I got erm however much money it is off you know. +I was +Oh yes yes yes. +walking down the high street and +Oh good. +And what did you take this morning, Postman Pat? +Well it's Thomas today he's got. +Thomas, sorry. +Thomas the Tank. +Come on really. +Happy birthday Dot. +Thank you. +You're +Or something. +Right. +Mum, who's birthday is it? +Oh it's Tim's mummy's birthday today. +That's nice isn't it? +What are you gonna get then? +You fancy what? +Postman Pat snap? +Shall we have a look for it? +We're going to root in your drawers for Postman Pat snap. +Is that alright? +Erm Fireman Sam? +No. +Postman Pat? +No. +Well you'll have to tell us. +Norman. +Norman. +Henry. +I think those are jigsaws mainly in there, don't you? +What's this at the bottom here? +Shall we have a look in a different one? +Try this next one down here. +Have a look in there. +Excuse me dear. +Thank you. +Can you see it? +I think it's all jigsaws in this bit. +Don't you? +Shall we try the top drawer? +Would you like that one?rooting about in your drawers . +Here. +Have you found it? +Look. +Would you like that one instead? +No. +Shall we shut this drawer then and have a look in a different one? +Excuse me. +Mind your fingers. +Oops a daisy. +That's it. +Let's try this top one cos we didn't look in here. +Oh this looks promising. +What's this? +Is that it? +Goody, hooray, mummy can go. +I'll see you later then now. +Anyway, have you had a good time? +Yes. +That's for you. +What is it? +A G M minutes . +When's that for? +Erm whenever the A G M is. +A week on it's a week on +It's for you to study and peruse so that you +you know. +Well I know, I think it's a good idea. +Well I might just try +They're giving them out beforehand so that, so +Yes it's much better for you to look, because you're all busy trying to look at them and listen to what's +I know. +going on. +Well there you are. +You can look now and have your questions at the ready. +And I don't know what happened to my dustbin. +Oh, why what happened to it? +It was all over the place. +The bags were down there. +It's been very windy. +Yes. +Er er that's it then. +So I've, I've got to, what was that? +Those are the mums and toddler tea towels. +Thank you very much. +I've washed them. +Thankyou, right-y-o. +Oh well I've got a lot of things to tell you. +I bet you have. +They'd better not go on that thing. +Why not? +Well ooh private. +Oh it's private. +Right. +Shall I switch it off then now? +Well if you want to know. +Oh I do want to know . +Well we started out +Just before you tell me about yesterday. +Just let's get today sorted. +You know when you go to erm collect Christopher from school? +Mhm. +Instead of walking back down to our house +go down towards the pub. +At the end of that place where you park? +No. +No no no. +Go down the path to the pub. +You know at the bottom? +The Jolly Farmer? +Oh. +And wait in the car park down there. +Oh. +Round that +Cos that'll save me five minutes. +I can't remember which way I go. +Do I turn left? +Well, you know when you get up the top you come out the school gates +Turn right. +and you turn right. +Mm. +And then instead of turning left down towards where we park the car, +Mm. +keep going. +Straight on. +Yeah. +There's a path goes down a slope. +Yeah. +You follow your nose down to the bottom of there. +Then you turn, +well you just follow the path. +It turns right and into the car park. +Oh so we follow the path and don't go over that bridge over the road? +No. +Don't go towards that, just keep on the path towards the Jolly Farmer? +I've been round there but +Yeah? +I've forgotten it . +Well you'll see at the bottom of that hill that th there's the Jolly Farmer sitting in front of your eyes. +Mm. +We're going in there then are we? +Well I should think so. +I don't think the Jolly Farmer does meals. +No. +But I thought if you do that then I can turn in that car park +Mm. +at the Jolly Farmer. +And er +Pick us up and +pick you up and then we can sail off to lunch. +That's right. +And it'll just save us a few minutes because it'll be tight squeeze I expect. +It will if we're not quick because erm +Yeah. +we don't want to rush them eating it do we? +Oh no. +It's meant to be a party night. +Well laugh +Right. +Two girls +It was +on a train. +on Monday morning +Mm. +setting off. +I set off and we had a taxi because it was terrible and I thought oh well, we had a lovely weekend, I'm not going to er spoil it by being soaking wet getting to Piccadilly station. +So I said we'll order a taxi, so we order a taxi. +Well er he came, the taxi man you see and Irene I don't know what, what was up with her because she gets my little bag into the taxi leaves all the doors wide open. +Ooh dear . +And I'm jigging out with another bag and the taxi man says er no, are there any more people? +I said no, I said. +Ooh I said she's not lo I said eh, what about the doors? +Dear . +Oh. +So we, and the taxi man +She perhaps thought she was going home. +I don't know what she thought. +So er the taxi man said +Going away. +give me the keys and I'll lock the door. +I said alright. +So we we pair of us supervised locking the door. +The +Dear. +taxi man and me. +. Found out he knew all this area +Oh. +and had a right chat with him on the way but, laugh. +So last night oh she said that, you know what did with the door she said, it caused a minor sensation with my two old ne next door neighbours. +They thought she was ill. +Oh I see. +Mm. +And the so the taxi man and I were er +Was taking her away. +was er t don't know what they thought we were d doing. +Yes, with her not locking her own front door. +Oh dear. +Cos we had to get the keys off her. +Well at least it was nice that they were looking out and +Well that's it I said well it just shows you that they do watch what y for you don't they? +Mm. +They're a nice couple, next door. +Mm. +He's called Fred. +So apparently last night he came knocking on the door. +To see if she was alright. +So she'd been out all day to this cousin's at Blakely She goes on a Monday now. +Oh he said, do you go every week? +Oh he said I'll bring you a leaflet. +You could get a dial-a-ride. +Oh. +You're over seventy. +Oh right. +They take you there for twenty P if you reg he said I'll bring you the papers. +Oh that's good. +That's handy isn't it? +So Yeah I sa er well she'd, actually she does two twenty P's cos she goes to town and gets a few things but, I mean it, I said it might be bad weather one day +Mm. +and you'd be glad to dial it. +Mm. +But you fill in this form +From your front door type of thing? +Yes, they come for you. +Oh. +So erm only in the Manchester area. +Mm. +You know Manchester City Council. +They do a dial-a-ride in Redditch. +They do? +But I've never used it. +But anybody can use it but under under seventy or something you have to pay so much. +You know, like go to the hospital with it or something. +Yes you can. +Well anyway so he got her these forms. +I said well it's worth registering. +I said Annie could do that. +Mm. +She's over seventy. +I said why they'd come for her wouldn't they? +Mm. +Do they do things on a regular basis? +You know? +I suppose they do. +I said fill it in and see, no harm in always say no +Mm can only say no. +can't they? +Mm. +So he, he, as I was talking to her last night on the phone the front door bell's going and it's our Fred from next door right looking after her and bringing forms for her to fill in to get dial-a-ride. +I thought jolly nice isn't it? +Mm. +Well then th they must have been she said they'd been concerned all day. +Oh dear. +They never turned up till half past six you see because +What did she do after that then? +She went gallivanting off then after that? +Oh she stays there at +Oh. +She stays and g ta gets a meal in town to take to her. +Right. +Then she does a bit of ironing for her. +She don't, she do she i she er finished her eightieth birthday and then had a stroke. +Oh did she? +When she got over the stroke she fell and broke her hand. +The first time +Oh I remember you saying that. +first time that the church warden came for her to go to church she fell getting out of his car. +Oh dear. +Mm. +So then I had on the train. +And these two girls, I think everybody was going for interviews at Man er Birmingham university yesterday. +Oh right. +And it was all crowded and so forth. +And we met this gi I don't think these two were going to Birmingham university but they were going somewhere. +Mm. +So erm these two girls, I couldn't I mean I was reading but couldn't tell but they could. +And I heard the girl saying well I don't look for smart shoes now. +good gracious. +I mean at least I do get a pair of smart shoes and they were lovely those shoes all day +Mm. +that bought . +Erm she said got a corn on every toe. +Well good gracious . +How old was she? +Oh oh only, she'd be oh twenty five, twenties like. +They +Oh dear. +you know . +I listened and listened, I thought ooh students don't change. +So erm +A corn on every toe . +Yes. +Dear. +So she said I have to, so I was squin you know I had a squint underneath to see whether she was wearing any . +You know those fancy boots that are very wide? +Mm. +Got er some of those on. +She said she couldn't she couldn't, she was crippled if she put a decent pair of shoes on. +I thought well at your age what are you going to do ? +Eh? +So she must have been wearing some funny shoes to get corns on +She probably had, mm. +Yes. +She learnt her lesson the hard way. +So then it got into +It's too late though now. +into Birmingham Fine we were. +I had, I bought a sandwich at Piccadilly station, goes in the bag oh I'll eat these on the train, I'll get the twelve six. +Nice railwayman carried me bags down the stairs to the Redditch train . +Oh very good. +Yes I'm doing very well. +I think they're all improving these anyway he said that +They improve with age I +Er I I I he said that oh yes I do want to go down these stairs but there's folks coming up and down and the esc you know, someone coming on the escalator. +They ought to have escalators going down you know in Birmingham. +They did, yes. +So er he carried them down for me. +They might have them might they, might they when they've finished all this refurbishing? +I can't see where they're gonna put them. +Oh I see. +They've refurbished it but they've not made any space for a down escalator have they? +Mm. +You've got to go and ask for them to take you on the erm +Lift. +lifts if you're er +Decrepit. +decrepit and want a chair. +Mm. +But anyway as usual you get on the station. +All of a sudden as they like to do in Birmingham station, all the trains are coming in on different platforms from usual and and er delays here and do you know what it was? +It was on the television last night. +It was a huge fire at erm +Oh. +at er Banbury. +Oh. +So everything was coming in on different lines? +and it sounded as though it was on the railway but it wasn't the railway it was a big factory at the side. +Mm. +And they er er they said people getting on this train er it was on the eleven, platform eleven near to where we were make sure, they kept giving it out giving it out, you must get out at Leamington Spa if you want Banbury. +Mm. +And they're going to lay some coaches on. +Because this train is going to avoid Banbury. +Mm. +To get to wherever it was going. +Mm. +That's the trouble with Birmingham. +Because it's where it is in the country, any catastrophe up or down +It ups yes oh ah +upsets whatever goes on in Birmingham. +So er there was this poor girl sitting on this seat and I'd seen her there and so, there was a nice lady sat they said er they took the Redditch train off the thing and put this Shrewsbury on. +This huge, you know, one two five came ooh we said, don't get on there if you want the university. +We said we don't know where the train is but get on when we do and you'll be alright. +She was going +Right. +Are you gonna get your coat on and +Yes. +keep talking as we go. +Is that your hat or is it mine? +Think it's yours. +Anyway this great big train came in. +That was late. +They're all standing out Birmingham you see and they were alt having to alter all the platforms cos of the +Mm. +Anyway when I saw the fire +Shall I take this? +Er yes when I saw the fire at Banbury ooh I said er they'd had to move people out and getting water from the canal. +It burnt the whole factory down for some reason +Oh dear. +Wonder what it was? +So it was +What factory? +I've forgotten. +Cos all the trains were on time +Have you got the keys for my house as well as yours? +Yes. +Right. +And, I don't need +Well, no you won't. +But I'm just checking. +Yes. +Yes. +I'd better lock this up hadn't I? +Do you like me gear? +Nice, why have you just bought those? +No no. +This is what I got at erm in Exeter. +Oh lovely. +You haven't shown me yet +The swimsuit that you bought me. +Mm. +Colour. +I got your card by the way, oh I said that already. +Have you done it yet with them? +No, not yet. +I I bought it specially for all three of you. +We got some +I got it in Droitwich. +Oh. +At that er erm christian bookshop I got it . +Oh. +they're new trousers are they? +Well no. +I've had the trousers some time. +Well they're newish. +They're probably the newest pair I've got but that's not the point. +Erm +Come on dear. +Just get yourself in this car else we'll be late. +Oh, sorry. +Er you've got a lot of er stuff middle of his lawn. +I've never asked him to have I been here. +I'll tell you about the wedding +I'll tell you what I'll do. +I'll drop you off at the Jolly Farmer, then you can walk up the hill to get to the school. +Then you'll know the way back +Oh then I'll know won't I? +won't you. +If you ever find the school that is. +What time do I go? +Oh it's +Well it's twelve o'clock you see. +Now do I just wait outside the classroom? +He knows I'm going does he? +Yeah. +He didn't, he doesn't like me going . +Oh he said, I won't see you till next Mon Monday I said now it's Tuesday isn't it. +I don't think he'll have noticed your absence. +He was so ill on Sunday. +He didn't not no . +Poor little thing. +And Timothy as well. +Well he wasn't that ill. +He just got feverish in the night really. +He seemed to be over it much quicker. +And how's daddy? +Oh he's alright. +We both survived. +Gritted our teeth and made it through the weekend. +Oh dear. +But you wouldn't want to be without them thought would you? +Oh no. +No. +Just have to well just certain times when th could, just could do with a holiday from them. +So the wedding, how was that then? +Oh that was lovely. +Ooh it was cold though. +Oh dear +So I'm taking some +Were they wearing their thermals? +Well we were. +Yeah but the bride I mean. +Oh I don't know what she had on. +Because the dresses were deep, low there and oh those low ones that come . +Well I wouldn't have chosen them for March cos I mean that's very nice +It's the in thing though isn't it? +Off the shoulders and +Yes yes and you see. +And and the underskirt and everything's all in with the dress isn't it? +Well anyway she's a nice I like her very much. +He's chosen +A nice girl +But he's, he's got this he's got this now. +Oh yeah. +It was, oh it was nice. +So I saw Paul. +Yeah they'd all be there wouldn't they? +Paul and David, Paul's young lady. +First of August he's getting wed. +Oh he, he's turned into a nice boy has Paul. +I'm sure he has. +Yes. +really, and erm I I've brought the service and things for you. +Erm Mr , you know Douglas did the prayers. +Oh yeah. +But erm the church you see was burnt down where he's gone to but it's nearly finished, altering it. +And and in a sense it's been a blessing in disguise. +Yeah. +Because you go in and they've got this new entrance hall. +Yeah. +And made a gallery round for the Sunday school. +And then you go into +They had a fire at Saint Leonards and they've been saying that really it's been a good thing. +Cos they've had to rethink what they want. +What's where yes. +And they've +Cos otherwise you're tied by you know +Yes that's it. +So +preservation orders or this that and the other. +Yes, yeah but when it gets burnt down you, I mean they can't +There's no preservation . +So and er we got there fairly early, cos the taxi well the taxi man got lost, that's another story. +The taxi man got lost in Manchester. +Anyway we got, we got there in time +Oh no wonder he wanted you to set off early. +Eh? +No wonder he wanted you to set off early, he didn't know where he was going. +anyway we had a nice trip up past and back through Prestwich and all round. +Till we found out that and he said oh I know where I am now. +Just tu +He didn't charge you for all that? +No, he took some off. +Fortunately. +Oh that was nice. +He said ooh he said it was my fault. +So he took anyway er I'm getting mixed up with me stories I think. +And at this church we got there early and the soon as we walked in there the, the church warden says toilets are there. +Thanks very much we said. +You must have looked the type. +So we we . +You know we said where we'd come from, that sort of. +So they let us look all round, they said . +So we did you see. +Because er it's marvellous what they've been able to do. +It's not quite finished. +I expect it was packed was it? +It was full . +And er the thing was, we found out afterwards why they'd done it. +The organ pipes are in the middle of the chancel and you couldn't see the east window at the . +No. +Oh well they said that's because they'd not got that section finished +and . +But the old gargoyles off the church were saved and they've stuck them up all over the on the erm dividing piece between the church and this new er section. +They've got a lovely new kitchen . +Very nice. +I bet +Oh yes they said. +But we've had a very very well we've still got him a good treasurer. +Who knew what to do and instead of +Yeah. +instead of saying, telling the er insurance people that they'd give them the bills and they could pay them as they came in, he said they'd got a lump sum. +And he's been able to invest it +Mm. +himself. +Mm. +Mm. +And he wanted, he was a man that knew what he was doing. +Knew where to get extra +Get extra money. +interest. +And he said er he's paid, he's paid for everything. +Just a little bit more money they wanted then he shoots off home. +I'm sure, you know, with Alan and this new building, he's been very good. +Yeah. +Because he's known the right people. +Yes. +And when things have turned up and they've not been quite right he's known +Yes. +There's something sort of practical about him. +You know the +Yeah that's what he, they said he's been marvellous, this treasurer. +They said we wouldn't have got +No. +but they've gotta let him. +You see. +Mm. +But he, he said to the insurance people no I don't want you just to keep on paying the bills. +Yeah. +He said we'll have a lump sum. +And he got the lump sum and they was investing it and just drawing out when he needed it. +That's it. +Course it was very nice and we got a proper dinner at this erm mind you we were absolutely famished by the time we got there. +Didn't get me dinner till gone three . +Yeah. +Thought you'd be late. +What time was the wedding? +Mm? +What time was the wedding? +Half eleven? +Twelve. +Oh twelve. +Did you have elevenses before you set off? +Mm? +Did you have elevenses before you set off? +set off at . +I had but erm we set off from Irene's at half past ten you see. +Oh . +It took him three quarters of an hour to get us there. +So anyway we'd had a good look round and this ch church warden said hey you'd better go and get some seats cos it's going to get . +Now you've come early he said, have a sit there he said and you'll see everything. +Yeah. +Cos they only booked seats for the immediate family. +So we sat on this row and it was Paul and his young lady and David all in the row with us. +And er +Yeah. +It was very nice. +All there they were. +I've had a right good chat to David. +So he, they came to erm Saint, Saint Kevins on Sunday morning. +And I reckon Sunday I'd have got a lift home. +Oh right. +had a real good chat with them all Sunday night. +Yeah. +Just pleased you'd got that extra space. +You're not worrying about rushing off. +Well I would have been rushing off. +Anyway it wouldn't have been fair to Irene really cos we went Sunday afternoon. +Well you've got nothing to rush off t for have you really? +No. +To look at the er . +Yeah. +Have they found out any more about how it started? +Absolute shell. +I don't know, they've, no well they're investigating aren't they? +It's a shame. +you know, you know what it looked like. +But he had made a mess of it. +Are you taking me to the er +I'm taking you to the Jolly Farmers. +Oh, are you? +Which will give you just about the right amount of time then to walk up. +You'll have a nice walk ready for your lunch. +Thank you very much. +I've already had a walk this morning. +I went out, there was nobody in the queue for the I said what's the matter? +She said I don't know, it's a quiet morning. +Well she said quiet time of the year this a bit. +Oh I said there's none they're all queuing for papers and cigarettes. +Nobody at the counter for the post office. +Okay now, if you go on th this path whoops it's gone. +Eh? +It'll be underneath the floor. +Wait a minute. +Good job I brought you. +Where's the path gone? +Well it's under the floor. +I mean it's erm you go, the underpass is there you see. +Mm. +Can you see the grass there? +Yes. +If you walk straight across that bit of grass there you'll come to the path. +I don't have to go on the underpass do I? +Well there's no point really cos you have to go backwards and go under the underpass and then up there you see. +So I'm going left aren't I? +You're going, yeah. +Well the underpass takes you left if you see what I mean. +Yeah we're not going back to the underpass do +But you don't, no. +You want to go u you see where that big tree is there? +Yeah. +So +You want to go across the grass and you'll hit a path which goes left up there, past those houses. +I think I've done it once before. +Yeah. +When I used to wander round with erm +Oh. +Just that +Oh sorry. +No it's alright, go on. +You walk up towards it and when I see you +And I'll come back tell me +disappearing round the path. +Yes right. +You'll see the path across there. +Can I tell you what we're going to do, cos we're gonna do something nice. +What? +I've just left grandma to go and collect Christopher from, from school. +And we're all going to go out to lunch together. +Have some lunch together while Christopher's, in Christopher's lunch hour. +We're gonna go to to Tesco's with grandma. +Have a birthday lunch. +For me. +With Christopher? +Yes, with Christopher. +And then we've got to take Christopher back to school for the afternoon. +And then we'll go +Why? +and then we go back home with grandma. +Why? +Because today Christopher's not having his lunch at school. +He's gonna have it with us instead. +But he still has to go back and work in the afternoon. +Who? +Who? +Who? +What do you mean, who? +Christopher has to go back to work this afternoon. +Why? +Because it's school time. +It's school time till three o'clock. +You're going a different way. +I'm going a different way aren't I? +Supposed to be going the right way. +Don't worry we'll get there. +It's just a different way home, that's all. +Cos there's lots of different ways from the nursery. +Going to pass the water tower. +We haven't. +We haven't. +We haven't what? +Passed the water tower. +It's there. +Water tower. +That's it. +We we didn't go past the water tower . +Ooh. +What's the matter with you? +You're all stroppy. +Did James put sand in your eye? +Oh dear. +Was that an accident? +You're always getting sand in your eye aren't you? +I think you must rub your hands in your eyes or something. +I did. +And it didn't come out properly. +No. +Did Lily help you? +No. +Gwen? +No. +Oh. +Just you? +Yes. +Is it still in there now? +What? +Is it still in your eye now? +Yeah. +Oh dear. +If you blink a lot that helps to wash it out. +No. +Blink a lot cos it helps to wash it out. +put water . +Well it's a bit tricky to put water in your eye. +Just blink a lot cos that helps. +That wa +No. +that washes your eye anyway. +Here they are look. +Oh we go past them. +That's right. +I'm turning round here look. +Quick. +Are you going to go round? +Be quick. +Eh? +Who's gonna go round? +He can climb through the middle. +Have you had a good morning? +Erm we discovered we could have come through this road here +Oh. +instead of going on that grass. +That would have been quicker would it? +I think, yes we're going to have to go back that way . +It depends which way you're coming. +Have you had a good morning sir? +That was quite quick. +I was there before it +It is, it's not very far. +Did you have to wait for ages? +No. +I had a good look and some of his class came to wave to me. +Oh . +Isn't it amazing how they know you? +Eh? +I expect he said there's my grandma. +Yeah. +Where's that car? +What car love? +Hello Timothy. +How are you? +Anybody else going home today for lunch? +Yes there's ano somebody behind. +Who was it? +Er, he knew who it was didn't you? +I don't know who it was. +No but somebody came behind us didn't they? +Cos they'd brought a little dog to be walked. +Have you had a good swim? +We left his things. +There was no point in bringing +No, no point in bringing swimming things now. +Did you have a good swim Christopher? +Did you have a good swim? +Donkeys nod their heads. +Bit silent. +He's nodding his head. +What have you done this morning? +Swimming? +Mummy when I swam swimmed +Yeah. +it wasn't very long. +It wasn't very long? +No. +Oh. +Why was that then? +Anyway, it was very cold. +Was it? +Oh dear. +Have they got it warmed up? +Did you get out and warm up? +Mum why are we going this way? +The out was even colder. +Oh dear. +That's a shame isn't it? +Why are we going this way? +I hope it's not +When I got in the pool it was very cold, going round the edge. +Yeah? +Mummy why are we going this way? +We're going to Tesco's. +We're going to Tesco's. +He's not got himself sorted out, Tim. +He's a bit bit erm +Oh poor thing, he's a mixing him up are you? +bit baffled aren't you Tim? +Course he's baffled. +Anybody would be baffled. +Look at that woman silly . +That's where Gemma lives, down there. +Yes that's right. +Well you say silly thing but how else is she gonna get across that road? +Got no other way has she? +Cos +Cos they've not exactly put +er the the to that bus stop. +Except there seems to be +they've not stuck an underpass or anything have they? +And it's a pretty horrendous road. +a lot of people coming cars on it when she did +Well there are always a lot of cars on it. +Yeah. +So there's no no chance. +Don't believe in zebra crossings in Redditch. +We haven't got any you know? +No I know we haven't. +Those pelican crossings that, we've got one or two of those. +We could have one of those. +I think we'll have a mass trip to the toilet before we go into the cafe. +Oh we'd better, yes. +Yeah. +I thought I'd gone before I came out of my house but I had a feeling when I nearly got to their school that I ought to have again. +You want to go again? +Yeah. +it's even better there look. +There you are. +When it goes straight on there it looks like you're reversing backwards. +It does doesn't it? +But I hadn't really. +It was a bit cheating. +What? +It was a bit cheating. +Right, what do we need? +Just money and us don't we? +Are we allowed ? +Yeah. +Mr didn't decide +Mum, I need to wash +to take your patches off your trousers again today? +No. +Good. +get out. +I'm going to wash my hands cos I've got glue on me. +Oh right. +What have you been doing then? +Sticking glue +Gluing. +glue. +Glueing what? +Are you unbuttoned yet? +Do you want some help? +Oh he's unplugged now. +Ooh. +Somebody else coming. +Right? +Are we all locked up? +Mum +Oh dear. +That car's called E K W. +Are you alright? +Having troubles? +E K W. +You what? +E K W that car is. +E K W . +There's E J W there. +With a J. +Where? +Here. +What did, what did Christopher and Timothy give you then? +For my birthday? +Yeah. +I got some biscuit cutters. +Is that what you got? +Mm. +Ooh that +Dinosaur shapes and gingerbread men shapes. +Oh +So we've got to make biscuits all afternoon. +I gave you gingerbread big man. +Yes you did. +And Tim gave you dinosaurs. +That's right. +And daddy gave you the family. +That's right. +Oh oy. +We're all going to the toilet first. +Where's grandma going? +She's examining what she's going to eat. +Did you all go swimming or were there a lot of you not going today? +Not very many +Thank you. +went. +Mum +Mm. +went. +Who went? +Mark went. +Mm. +Good. +Have you done any reading or anything like that? +Is he alright in there Dorothy? +Well I hope so. +Sorry, do you want to +Mum, why do you +you have one. +No you're alright, no I'll look and see what the man's doing. +He's alright. +Oh. +You just carry on in this one look. +Oh okay. +Don't worry about our family. +We'll all go in to the one. +I've taken my coat off. +Oh you've taken your coat off. +Right. +He's taken his coat off. +How do you lock it? +No we don't need to lock it, come on. +There's only us and a lady in here and she won't be coming +Think there's someone else gonna come. +Is there? +Well grandma will sort them out. +Is there anything coming? +No. +No? +You're alright are you? +Yeah. +When did you wee? +Did you wee at at nursery? +Yeah. +Er er er before I I went. +Right. +Right. +Would you like to tell grandma. +Ask her if she'll do your face for you cos you're a mess. +While I just go to the toilet. +You got as far as you were at the wedding +We went in the church, that's right. +Oh and I got the thing. +You can look at it while we're sitting here. +Oh let's have a look yeah. +Might as well because this is a good time while he's rushing around on that. +That's a those were the little erm things that were on the tables. +Oh yes. +How many were there, the guests? +We reckon there must have been a hundred at the meal. +Oh, very nice. +Mind you it was nice, I liked the service very much. +Mark Richard Samuel. +I didn't realize there was all that lot. +They've all got three names haven't they? +And that's the little cards. +Did they oh no. +Couple of hearts, how exciting. +Oh! +We had that one. +Yeah I know. +It was all very nice actually. +I liked the rector of the er I've got something in here that Irene sent for you, your family. +Who did? +Irene? +Irene sent those. +What are they? +For your birthday. +Oh my goodness. +Right. +Keep them quiet. +I'll put them in here +Here he comes. +He's found a friend look. +Eh? +He's found a friend. +Alright isn't it? +Found a friend? +Mm. +Have you found a little friend? +Do you want to go and play with her? +Chase her. +I don't know what me pictures will come out like because when we started taking them we were that cold our hands were going like this. +Oh dear. +Mm. +And then it was, there wasn't much room +Are you going to stand them up for me Tim? +It +Right, let's have a look in this parcel then +Yeah +in the garage +I think we'll throw this bits and pieces away +Aunty Mary send you some money then? +Yeah +Oh +Twenty pounds from Aunty Mary, I know, she should of been generous, shouldn't she? +She's got nobody else really, so normally you've got +Here's one for you +I think I've been given it er some good cause rather than +Well I +well, yeah I know +I don't think I'd have to +I mean we're not sure +I'd send it to suit +for me +if I thought you were all out of work +Mm, it would be . +There's a very sweet one from John and Chris have you found that one? +Oh yes, he's given me too many at once, thank you very much +Don't think they will all fit on there will they Tim? +stamps off for you. +Yeah I'm going to getting the stamps off these en envelopes cos I have to put all these in a hurry in the end, also got loads of time, then I realised it was half past ten, no wonder I didn't get anything at home forgotten where we keep them +and John +Chris and John +tweedle +well I'm always calling them tweedle dum and tweedle dee, hey don't throw it at the house, it might be something fragile +Yeah +It come through the post it probably is +Here, I open that bit +you take the brown paper off and this is the wall paper underneath and I'll take that bit off +Yeah +right, when you get to the stamp make sure you don't rip the stamp, cos they need the stamp ,stamp of the stamp +Mm it is isn't it? +mm I expect to be here +Who's Steven and Pauline? +Pauline and Steven and Pauline and Tony, remember Pauline came to see us, little girl, oh look we've got a plant arriving with a brown leaf on it in there +Oh they're all mouldy, oh dear +are they meant to be mouldy like that? +I don't know, I think you ought to take the top off now +Do you? +Well, ain't you read the instructions? +Yeah, but it says don't take the top off for twelve days, when did I la , when did it come out +Well it looks to me I mean I, it, it's five days since I was in Manchester so +It will be tomorrow won't it, fortnight +Ooh, gently does it +I did +Whatever it was just the way I did it +I open this bit +No, this is my bit now, cos it's my, my present +Let, let mummy, mummy's birthday let her open it +Ooh it's French, I think that's just going in +What's inside it? +I don't know yet, it's very exciting +I want it +Tim who's birthday is it? +Oh it's a present for you +Yeah, it's a +It's a bath gel, very posh daddy will be interested in these stamps, we've managed to come across some French stamps +Look, look, +can't you get it +No, I +what is it? +well it's in a French box +I hope it's worth opening +So do I , I think the box is only because it's here we are +You know what that will do? +Oh you're right +that's a letter for looks like a card smells nice +Look put it back in the box otherwise there +Oh look at that, I love birthdays on a badge,to Aunty Dot,hope your birthday is lots of fun for you, filled with many of, happy things and nice surprises too , right let me wear me badge I love birthdays there we go that can stand up somewhere, I don't know where, we're running out of space +Mum +the gingerbread boy isn't it, we've got the man +dad +that's your grandma love, not your dad, to the +Well mummy wants daddy when she wants to make the, the biscuit, let's look gingerbread family, oh yes +Oh +what she got? +Mum, mum +What's this,oh look at that +Ooh +a rose garden, celebrated fragrance of the rose +I didn't +recreated in this soft +I did, show to grandma +Oh that's lovely +Can you smell the +Let's smell it +don't know +Oooh +Ooh, ooh +Oooh +this thirty outdoor Freshers suitable for small gardens +I say +bulbs that's nice +even go in the +planting time March to April, that's +Whoops there's a letter +I'll have these Freshers all the way down the side near that erm middle wall, thought to myself wonder what I could have done there that will look pretty +Lovely aren't they? +You know near the fence on this side +no that side +in the sun +in the, yeah +oh yes, under the +Freshers would be nice +Look +I know, aren't I lucky? +Oh look at these socks +they're huge +There, they will go +That's a thank you letter for Ann's birthday oh very kind wasn't it? +I did rather well there +What's this one, do we have to take the lid off it, we do don't we, or do we have to puncture it? +Maybe tell you somewhere, look underneath, is there a thing on the bottom? +No, it isn't, it smells nice enough with the lid on, but I'm sure it should come off +No, it should come off , I don't think I think you might make a hole in it +Oh it's got sellotape there +Look +Oh it's that display open attracted container +Oh that will it +Mum +Whey hey +The +Phorr put these on the erm +Put them up somewhere dear +I thought I'd put them on the window sill I think +Me, me smell it +you don't need to smell close, don't get too close it's quite powerful +he shall walk in and daddy will say oh what is that beautiful scent, we will say it's the rose +right leave them here don't forget Christopher though will you, what time is it? +It's nearly ten to six are you going to come with me to get Christopher Tim or are you staying with grandma? +Going to stay with grandma +Ok, thank you very much +I think he needs constant trips to the loo grandma +Yeah +Oh daddy went to the park +Yes I am too, it makes a +fresh air +Make a nice change +We'll also go to the park where there's nobody else +village , first of August +You won't get any like that one will you? +What one? +So er David you know them, I think I'm letting the down really but when you do do it there won't be any, be any erm, oh I never thought of that he says +Look at Michael +he says wait twelve months and then I said something like that I said, them all intention of being used. +I recognise his parents but well after that Mike get's +I went park +I just +was thinking oh well, +I was going nanny +Landed with looking a few +Yeah +now we have to share erm, right +What +This is +Alright what do we say about throwing toys eh? +It spoils them dear, you shouldn't throw them I can smell a smell +It's called pot pourri +Tim +quick before you go out +Tim, Tim, Tim he'll probably just wants to go to the toilet soon you will tell grandma won't you? +Leave that when you get back +I know he will be, he's quite good at so far, I think this time of day is alright, but +It's when he gets very tired they can't +They do, don't they? +. Right I'll see you in a bit then Tim +Want anything doing? +Like what? +Oh +yeah actually that would be quite nice, I mean when I, when I arrive home +I make, cos I make it in a microwave +I would guess that Christopher would like that in an +OK, I'm not doing those, I'll just do the tea +OK +I like +Ooh +I love squirrels, don't you? +Huh +down the bottom they are +I know +Every time I think +Oh what a shame, they come down here +Gone further up now , yeah +We often have squirrels down, the bottom down there, down, haven't seen any there before. +Well I've got a, mm, got a big wood at the back of my place I +Oh well there's plenty there +Erm, I got like a big bird box that we put a little outside bird box and everything +Oh +outside, I feed them all the time +Oh +and erm one's made a nest in this bird box +Oh lovely +and it comes down, takes the food and +you see it taken all the straw and its chewed all me clematis and everything got it all inside his little nest +We had a hedgehog last year, I haven't seen them this winter er you know since +Yeah, something might of happened to them +unless they yeah they could do, there were two of them +I think it's rather mild +a male and a female and a baby +Yeah it's rather mild and they sort of erm, to find a different place all the time +Mm, mm make my way down this way, you over here are you? +What's the new notice? +Is there a new notice here +Oh +oh it's alright, mother and toddler that's alright, I'm not into that +Oh I'm not into no mother and +We run a mother and toddler in the morning on a Thursday I'm not coming to another in the afternoon there picking things up +Hello Gemma something . +Oh dear somebody's bad +See the baby this morning? +No I haven't seen them, have they come +Yeah +have they got some? +yeah, there, it's on the one page and Gemma +Oh right +and er Gavin I think it was er er she did go like, not to bother borrowing the magazine at the end, sometimes they may +cos they will get, they will get +give you some, said she +yeah +she save one each for them +Were on a front of a book you know, same bloke dressed on the front of a book +I've seen it, Christopher's on the front of the book, he looked lovely there +I know , he looked really nice +really nice , he's in Smith's little model +Yes, he booked her in Smith's, then she said don't buy one yet cos they're one pound sixty +Yeah +don't buy one yet +yeah, you'll get free +she said cos I've noticed this sometimes she said there, they will give you some here +yeah +she said and I'll save one +mm +that should give him the +Oh they should send us, oh eh we've got a something or other on today +er +Wait for it +no they paid you, paid, paid, given us an address that er at the she said +Mummy +they will come +I'm sure they will because er +Don't keep they give you a photocopy +oh they photocopy it +yeah they photocopied it +that's nice , is this you, let's have a look +one sixty but I said erm +No you'll get a complimentary copy, we did with the book, the man came to our house +yeah, she said they may +and gave it to us so that. +Is any where +Good Chris look at this, I know all my work, a smile and a star, good gracious +what word you on next +Seeing as we've had those words for about a week I should think we do know them then. +What have we got now? +What we on now, +Er +There, there were +Done those ones, done all these, we've done this one? +Well done Christopher +Yeah done that one +Have you done that one? +What about that? +Yeah he's done that one +They've done these two +Mum have I +Yeah I got those +These there photo +Oh this is your photo, oh look at you, how sweet, preparing the press block that's nice in it? +Oh Oh little +Was that when we did it, cos I did that with you didn't I in the afternoon, or I did some with somebody +Did you do that rolling? +Yeah, rolling the print stuff, I've never done that before now there's the address +Lovely innit? +She said, she said she'd put the address in it. +Ah that must be it +Is that it? +yeah +Yeah, I say +She did not to bother, they're selling them in W H Smith, did she say sometime? +The, the last time they did she, they, hang on a minute sort it all out +Come on then cos it being +This is Kirsty's mum er she started her off +Oh this looks nice, typical blue +don't +alright +you know +and what's this Christopher +Oh that, they had them yesterday +why we was +Oh weather +he's coming back +Come on then Gem +What have we got now, the storm +What boxes was that, that one? +That's a swizz that one, you get to the end and they've not got in the pool +Oh, oh +I was really cheesed off with that +I had that with my little girl the other night +really cheesed off yeah , they don't make it, they get to the door and that's it, and you think of what the hell +and er, I mean he can be a bit +Oh no problem cos we, did he show what we did in the library yesterday? +Oh no +We bought it with to show oh you didn't get, it's ever so good he got it out and he read most of it ever so well it's lovely +Oh well done +so we were very pleased. +Oh you can read that one tomorrow you might like to +It's a good story, very funny, it's like that woman who started out being a window sill +It's your birthday by the way +Does everybody know? +Fine, thanking you Sharon, it's very kind . +I'll go home and blow my candles out, come on +You've got lady's trainers now +Well no I threw the old ones away, cos they were getting holes in them, here's Mark's mum hello, all well? +Yes, till we go for +it is isn't it? +Yeah +it goes very quickly, yeah, Tuesday already +Who knows all my words? +it's a big one that +Oh +I get another star , thing is he doesn't actually, I can remember them cos he can read them,I don't know whether she's got them wrong for the test it's a bit of a really isn't it eh? come on +Did you enjoy your swim this morning? +He said it was cold, was it cold? +You found it cold . +There was , there was a debate as to whether we went in or er +It was so cold +but it was cold when we got in and even colder when we got out , so if we all go down with pneumonia that will +I think if it's a bit like that again we should probably, you know, we wouldn't take them in +Say no, yeah +and we got changed, but it wasn't until I got in +that you realized +that you realized that it was so cold +Mummy +I bet they forgot to put the heating on something earlier or, service that and not got +I don't know whether they gone and complained about it +the worse was +well that was, you know I mean they were all waiting they had all got their arm bands on and it was do we take them in or not? +So you were in for ten minutes and rushed them out and out again then +I was gonna get out a little bit earlier +Yeah +and er +well considering we were sick the day before I shall think that will really do us in +The heater's nice and warm. +There's a heater in there is there? +Well in the changing rooms +Oh well, you mean heat in the changing rooms +Changing rooms, there's quite a good heater +There's one in the just by the er, the changing rooms, the, the erm lockers and I always choose a locker that +You want the ones +yeah, yeah I always choose a locker that's between the +Dry your hair got changed +I always pick that little spot to get changed in, oh, well see you all then, right, bye, bye Mark +Oh bye, oh hello , are you waiting for your mum or do you go home by yourself? +Well my mum stay there +Bit of both oh right, that's a good idea, see you Gone the wrong way a post box got a letter to post +Oh we will unless we've gone down the wrong hill We'll have to practice the window cleaner one if you're going to read it to the rest of the class, have to practice the face and read it with expression so they don't all fall asleep oh hello, hi. +Oh it's +I know, my word, oh it's brilliant +and that's my eldest +I've got a new one tonight, I don't know how we're gonna cope with this, we've got, we've changed schemes now, we're into the Oxford +Oh +I like the Oxford it, the stories are really fun +Oh yes, yes +Yeah +You'll be +If I do +My children just love that over there +and yeah we'd like to keep ours till September, I don't know if we'll ever get, we will get a free new one ever? +Or do we have to have, we have to pay our ten P's,to park +Every +Oh every year,oh well we've got a long time to keep it going , within about the first, within about the first month daddy managed to get the iron on the top +Oh, oh +on the left carried on +well that's I thought when I saw it coming out I thought oh goodness this is gonna be ten P a week, that's the same for everybody, very good +How does +and because it's slight yellow you don't lose it you know, if you keep all your stuff in it at home you can see it under the chairs and you know huh, find it again . +We, one doesn't try to lose things, but they just happen don't they really I think I appreciate more now, you know when I was, when I was teaching I used to think oh stupid woman she's not, to bring this book in and you know, and now I think oh dear, huh, yeah and you also appreciate the people, I would appreciate now those who managed to do it every day without fail, manage to sort of let, because they must of put themselves out no end to have +Yes +done it as opposed +keep in +to those who think oh blow I can't find it just tough mm +no hope we don't lose it on that Tim, it's got all my money in at the moment, it's a really good one isn't it, we're really enjoying it at the moment doesn't what number it is but we just, what do we do with this? +Something seven +Something seven, sixty seven perhaps even or seventy something, anyway whatever it's got money hasn't it? +It is +well we haven't seemed to the new five P's +yeah, well I was gonna say those new five P's are but you see you just get the new five P's and low and behold they will produce something else +they change hang on +oh yes +He's got chicken pox at the moment I think +Oh +I think she's probably just come out for a quick stroll, we won't spend our time over that at the moment,hello +Hello +alright? +Have they not had chicken pox? +Yes, ours have, yeah they probably passed it on in fact, kids probably passed it to them +Oh +weeks ago. +I was thinking I haven't heard him cry +Is he happier? +Tim you mean? +No, that +Oh that one +Yes . +I tell you something I was amazed at erm the reading book he appeared with, Fluff and Nip and goodness knows what that went out with the ark when I came out of college, I don't know whether they're all reading that or whether it's just sort of found them and must of been just perhaps a one off or something, but, I was amazed +no I don't think it is, I think it's probably got +yeah +it's the moral, that's right, and the moral sounds, sounds good doesn't it, I don't know if it is, but it just sounds it I suppose +Well I, I mean +no, no +I mean I like very much +yeah +yeah, could well be, I don't know what it is +if it's anything school +no and I, I think particularly this new head seems to know exactly what she's doing, where she's going, I think it's excellent so I'm sure she's working everybody to death and I think that's brilliant +Yeah +well I was worked to death +if she +when I first came out of college and I really appreciated it +well I, I, I +you know you had high standards and you knew where you were aiming for and that's what I want my kids to go through as well, you know, somebody who's gonna do their best +because it rubs off on them +mm +it's, it's everybody around them got to try hard +that's right , that's right +you know the stuff I mean they will +yeah +know that's there expect +that's right and you know that if the staff has put theirselves out to make a decent crash in their environment they're gonna go mad at the children if they muck it up, so therefore, you know, you're gonna have that +yeah +I think that one of the things that get me at the moment is the time keeping, it's very bad +mm +I mean they stroll in at quarter to nine and I think +right, right +I think that +it's a bit bad that +yeah +yeah, well I was there the other day and erm the bell went and nobody sort of moved and I thought I think, I know, you know, so I got up and I washed me cup of tea like, you know, they looked at me as if you know oh there's a keen , but I mean I do think it's important to do that, because not only that it's not fair for the +I think the day you get I've, I've +dinner ladies, because I mean they're stuck out there you know doing their best. +cos from their every angle a child needs +yeah, yeah +cos it's I mean my two I've always been very +yeah +and they've never been late to their jobs +I aim to get things there on time +you know they've both got little jobs, they've never be late and they +mm +have to go and +yeah +all that sort of thing, but +yeah +I don't know what strolling and +yeah, you mean the children and the say rather than +oh yeah +the staff +oh yes, I meant the children +yeah +yeah, I was thinking of the parent and teacher side of it +oh yeah +yeah +you're waiting to go into assembly +yeah +I don't know, it should, to me every day, one, two children you know +yep +I think they're late every day +yeah +once or twice +they probably don't get up until quarter to nine, see they have a struggle really to get there on time +I, I, if you can manage to get here for ten past nine every day, why can't you manage to get here for nine o'clock +to get here for nine o'clock every day, yeah +it's five to it says on the bits of paper +it's five to +but then the bell doesn't go till nine, although sometimes it goes at two minutes to nine and sometimes it goes at five past nine +I think all the clocks are +they say something different or something do they? +yeah , because I was in the +Cos sometimes I think we've got hours and we hear bell going as we're coming up the hill and we think oh dear and then, you know, other times +yeah +we'll be sitting in the playground for ages, well standing in the playground for ages. +I think sometimes these things crop up +Yeah +and we all get rather engrossed +yeah +and then everybody's gone to the classroom and you think oh gosh the bell +anyway I +right, OK +see you. +bye +I have to do my own one +Mum +Hello pardon? +It's mixed is it? +Yeah +I told grandma that's what you want +got some goodies in there +there you are +I had it the coat, I've just taken my coat off +biscuits. +ah we haven't got any biscuits have we? +Do you know why we haven't got any biscuits, have to be one of those, +ginger one +got you there. +I'm not sure we can actually make ginger bread, but, I'm not sure we've got any ginger but we could certainly make some biscuits is what we've got +You can make some men +You can make some biscuit men +You can make some men but it just won't taste of ginger +makes some men +do you like one of these can't be making biscuits +have you seen this? +all of a I know my word +She eat it +don't +Is there a of these? +And who's, and who's put all that +Can I do a big one? +She's a scream she loves doing this kind of thing, doesn't she, +Is it gonna be a big one? +Would you like one of these biscuits grandma? +Yes please +Going to make a big one? +We're not going to make anything right this minute, cos first of all we're going to sit down have a nice cup of tea and Christopher's going to read to me, so we're going to get that out of the way before the excitement thing happens +Cos we've got to have the +I know where the cake is but I'm not allowed to look +You know where it is? +Mm +So do I +with it +Yeah +I know where it is +Do you +Oop, what does it say that on the back for? +Yeah it says cold +It says cold but we don't know why +When grandma +There's your tea for you +Thank you +Yeah +Thanks gran +Now then grandma, you go into Smith's and buy yourself an Art and Craft Magazine, you'll see your grandson in there on page whatever that is, page twenty eight +Not the book, the little one is it +It's a little one now , this is the Art and Craft Magazine, you know they did, this is a child's education copy, they probably still do it Art and Craft +Mummy +Yeah +Oops well that's it, that's the one +It used to be a marvellous one +Well that will be it I should think +have you +we shall have to ring er the grand parents cos they wanted a copy, we're supposed to get a free copy of the magazine we think, but they photocopied that for us just for fun +Who has? +the school hasn't it, cos it came through today in school +Oh I'd love a picture in it +that's what I'm saying to you +well +I didn't realize he'd be on his own in there +no I don't +look who's doing the whole lot apparently he just had to do, he just had to model that, he didn't get a chance to do it properly +Oh +Yeah +He's been to the toilet, he didn't say come to the toilet, I had to go and +So he just came to +Oh dear, what's the matter with Tim? +Oh that will +What's your problem Tim? +I +where shall I put my drink? +I don't know, where would you like to put your drink? +He thought he had his +What was it, was it a birthday cake or something with candles? +I don't know +I bet it had candles there in the summer, do you think? +I think it was +I've got it +Can we get a mat for that, cos otherwise it makes a mess on my chair +Oh it's +I've seen the ah he's found the +It wasn't, it was that +There's a mat on the settee there Christopher +I +on the settee, and that will do +It's mine this one +Yes I know +Do you want this on here? +New magazine, which Tim choose, but has decided not to read +Does these two come here then? +How did they get Christopher in this? +They took them at school, all at school. +That's at school, +The magazine? +You can get it in Smith's if you walked in +Oh +walk into Smith's and ask for Art and Craft April edition publication and if they haven't got any spares they will order you one I expect +Oh +or we'll get you one, or you could get it through your local news agency. +They won't get that in the shop +No they will never get it will they? +No, cos they won't know what you're talking about. +OK, you gonna squeeze in this chair with me to do our reading +Mum that could be a +What's he got have you on you? +Mm, probably might +Ta +Could be for Ruth, it's Ruth's birthday +When? +Three day's time. +Or it could be for daddy if he wanted it +Could be for daddy yeah +Did you know +You want +My daddy might feel left out of it +My +Have you seen my badge look, Aunty Gwen and Uncle David sent me that +Have you one +saying I love birthday +Be bo's +Tim had one like that, a Thomas the Tank +Yes +Be bo's +A Thomas the Tank +Mine is, is this James? +bald is it, the be bald +The be bald, yes +Be bald she's old +Do what? +She's old, they make a load of rubbish out of it +Come on, where you gonna sit? +I'm a sit +Now then, Christopher's got to read this to class tomorrow, Mrs said, so we're gonna practice +How did, how did the big old go. +Right +Right, you've got to make it sound really interesting, let me switch this thing off cos they don't want to hear you read again I don't suppose +That's a ginger bread man +Oh that's a dinosaur, oh there's another one, got that one up, oh there's a daddy there's another daddy too and never put me +I did that for the nose +Right, I think we'd better move this sugar, we're not gonna have enough room are we? +Ooh, what a minute +dad +that's what I +Right, can we just move it a bit, cos we've got to make the mixture we sort of have to do +There's plenty of room right, just gonna put, I was gonna put the rice up here cos otherwise there's not gonna be enough room +No +to make the mixture +I don't want to put the mixture in +right now let's see what we need to do it says we need to melt the margarine +No, I haven't washed my face +Pardon? +I haven't washed my face. +You haven't washed your face? +No +You sound to me like a tired little rascal +I want to help +You can help darling, don't worry +yeah where? +no trouble, alright, don't cry, OK? +Alright, there you are right are we happy now? +I don't think we're gonna have Thomas very well we're baking can we? +No +Now it's the +Send Thomas away somewhere in the shed or +Cos I, I want to send him into the shed because I had him first +boo, hoo, hoo, hoo +I had him first +I don't know whether I'm going to cope with you two +I had him first +You two, sshh, if you two are gonna help me with the biscuits, then we can't have rows about Thomas can we? +Can we put him with the biscuit cutters over there? +I wanted to +Well it's just tough +You not +Right we need golden syrup, we need some margarine, can you pass me some margarine out of the fridge, there should be a block of margarine +Mum +in there somewhere. +we shouldn't look at the box +No well don't look, you won't be able to see anyway because it's in a bag +caster sugar +I don't appear to have any caster sugar, that could put the end to +Anyway, mummy , it's right at the back +gonna have to use brown sugar, that's all we got +we shouldn't of, mum we shouldn't of, you shouldn't let me take cos I had erm +right where's the scales? +are we gonna have this for tea? +Suppose depends what time we +I the tea +What? +depends what time we get around to er, getting it done +ooh, three hundred and fifty degrees, I don't know what it is +we'll guess it, centigrade, right, what else do we need? +Golden syrup, margarine, sugar, plain flour got some of that somewhere what else do we need? +A pinch of salt +A pinch of salt +ginger bread not really, baking powder we got, a bit of bicarbonate soda we've got +ginger +well we're not having any ginger bread men cos we haven't got any ginger, huh, well we're just having sort of nothing really +We're having, we're having +Mm, that's right +we're having sort of biscuits, erm +a pinch of salt in there +thank you +you +I'm helping Christopher, Christopher +Put stuff in there +That, what does that go on here? +Eh, I don't know, hold on, cos I can't find any carb, here are, there's the baking powder +Oh +Mum, its +my has disappeared +Mummy just been weighed +this weighed, mum this weighed something, this weighs nothing. +right, change of plan +What? +change of plan, we haven't got erm bicarbonate of soda, so we'll have to self raising flour instead +Why? +I have to put in it +let's just see whether we should use powder or not +there +eh, what are you doing, you're gonna end up in, having a salty biscuit if you're not careful, don't do it +right +we'll do the margarine first, were did you put the margarine? +There we are, it had to be a block +Don't need that one +there's a block of margarine somewhere here, this one +right then, can I do it? +Can I do it? +can you see that please, can you make total of eight there, we've got wait to orange like thing goes round to the eight +The big notch +yeah, can you see it Tim? +Right down to that eight +Which eight? +No you're looking at the wrong one, this eight down here where it says eight and then there's an O and a Z, that's eight ounces which is about two and something grams, we're not worried about grams today,in ounces, oh, think that will be enough? +I think, oh, no +No, ah, ah, more +try some more +better +no +no +try some more +no +nearly now +nearly +yeah I think that's about right, don't you? +just one more, just one more, I think +one more , how's that? +erm, take one of tiny, tiny +oh no, that's enough +why? +worried about that, right is that ready to go in the pan, if somebody would like to put that in the pan +I want to +thank's Tim, don't tip it on the floor +pour it +sort of blobs, so be careful +oh, oh +careful, whey +oh +oh +right, sugar we need now +no shall I do it, I do it? +Can I do it mum? +six pounds of the sugar OK, you ready? +Oh dear me, look at, just +ah +let me see what's happening, that big notch there that's number four, now we need another notch five, and another notch six, whoops, stop mummy, too far, but never mind, +I do +right that lot needs to go in the pan until +oh, I, I +I do +Let Tim cos you did the margarine. +can I do the +Whatever you do don't make a mess on the table, +Oh it's a laugh, +I know +oh +gonna let as well +right +What else do we need? +I think we'll just wipe that mess , mind your fingers you dilly +Mm it's nice mum +mind your fingers out of the way +mm, mm, it tastes nice mum +And me, it tastes delicious +Does it? +Who now +Right, wait a minute now we know yet we need, oh we need the golden syrup +erm +oh dear +can you go down and get that back from him? +I can't +Why not? +you go and get it mum +Where is it +can you press the +there, now this should be interesting cos we're gonna get in a sticky mess here if we're not careful, eight ounces +oh +blob, blob, blob, blob, blob +It's my turn +blob, blob, I think I'd better do this one Tim, I haven't had a go yet +No mummy hasn't had a go actually +I +no, no, can't eat it yet +ooh +ooh +ooh +ooh +sticky wicky +sticky wicky +ooh +I didn't have the spoon +I didn't have the spoon +do you? +Can I lick it? +One of you, one of you can lick the spoon and one can lick the bowl, plate +Can I have the spoon please? +Can I have the spoon? +When you've got the off +When you've got the golden syrup off , when you're eating the golden syrup can you +there is golden syrup in this thing, I need to get +and I'm, I'm having the bowl and he's having the +OK +spoon, how am I going to get the golden syrup up? +through your fingers are you? +Why? +Try not to use too many fingers, just one +Why? +come on syrup +come on +right you know what you've got to do with that lot? +No +Melt it, so where will we put it to melt it do you think? +I want +and er +Hold on Timothy +next to that +Mm, mm, mm, mm +can I lick the bowl? +Yeah you can lick the bowl +and +you lick the bowl and there's a spoon for you. +Mm +There will be a lot on it Tim, be careful, don't let it get everywhere, cos it's so sticky +Syrup +Golden syrup +Yep +mm, nice +mm +when it comes at tea time you won't be hungry will you, cos you've eaten, ate all this? +mm nice taste mm +Right now where we gonna put this do you think to melt it? +On the cover +On the cover +on there +on the cooker,in the drawer +mum will you +should make a nice , am I not very good with it, +right +now what do we do? +Flour, salt, ginger root, we're not doing, baking powder and the bicarbonate of soda , right, what do we need excuse me +no I don't get a fourteen we need a big spoon +We might not be able to use our shapes until tomorrow which will be a pity won't it really? +I think if you share that there, the two of you +Yeah, but why? +cos I haven't got any +I think you've probably had enough actually, you get he's, just have one, one little bit, put your finger in, and then we're gonna put it in the, er three fingers put it in the wash +Can I have this? +What do I? +Alright I'll have some. +No I'm doing the +Why? +No +No more cos it's all gone +OK, I need somebody to beat an egg +Beat an egg? +Mm +Can I do it? +You can both have a go +Right, both have a go +Why? +Why? +anything? +Where's mine +well we only want one egg, but +mum? +what you have to do is, Tim have the first go, we have to stir it round like that with a, with a fork, OK +Why didn't you let us crack the egg? +Watch it Tim and see what happens because that yellow bit will start mingling in with all the other bit. +That's the yolk in the middle +Could you wash my fingers though +Can I wash your fingers +My turn +you can wash your own fingers +what's roll it out for? +Roll it out, when you get a rolling pin and roll it out, that's when you need the cutters to make the shapes you see. +But why do you have to leave it in the fridge? +Your turn +You have +Christopher , Christopher your turn +Here you are Christopher your turn, can you mix it better? +Have some more +Make sure the white , hold it still. +Mum we've got a scoop and we could put it in there +Right, do you want to see how it's really done, let me show you, watch, are you watch Tim, then you can try, watch +Where? +There +you hold it like this look, hold the, the cup with, with the handle +and you hold your fork like that between the and then you just whisk it +I got to whisk it, whisk it +you go round and round very fast +whisk it +that's it, fast +Mum +it will be better if you put it in that toy machine mum +and when we put it in that toy machine, we could mix it like that wouldn't need you to do it would it? +Not putting it in +Right that's there all we need now is a little bit be melted +Yes +Yes,melted +Not do you want to see then? +Yeah +It's not quite finished melting yet so I'll just bring it over to see and have a look, can you see look it's still all bits, lumps and margarine in it. +Can you see the lumps of margarine? +Why isn't it brown? +Those lumps well that under there, can you see that? +I did stir the spoon +Don't make sure I got all mix in and then that, the other +And it looks nice and it looks like cheese +together +It looks like cheese +It looks like, hardly mixes it does it? +Because the margarine is all on the top +picnic, let's have a picnic +Right +Just a minute while I'll watch +Now this should be interesting, tip this in here, sometimes you got to put this in, sometimes you got to put egg in. +Come on put that +Oh dear +Oh +I, I can't see +I'll put it nearer to you and then you'll be able to, it's really a mummy job this I'm afraid +I want to +It's stir there, that's middle +Are you making pastry? +Well it's gonna, mm, yeah, well it's not pastry cos it's flour I think we've mixed it really, I know what you mean, we are going to tip it out of the ooh +Oh, that's a bit of a lot, er but it smells and smells nice, so I could eat it now +Ah +biscuit +Errrrr +Ohhh +There +Oh, come on +Look at that thing, look, let's have +Yeah I'll wipe it +We'll have to be +oh mum we can play with any me and mummy . +Mum this bit go right, we can get it go right round there +Look +Look mum +look mum, mum +Mm, yeah +He oh, oh, +No watch this, that, see that it's gonna go all the way round there, all the way round, all the way round there and all the way round again. +Mum mine went round the round again. +Mm. +And the ginger bread man +No. +Can I have the ginger bread man? +Ooh +Can I have the ginger bread man? +Now that's the big stretched can you, if you just put your finger on there you'll see how sticky it is, can you feel it's warm and sticky and +If we put it in the fridge it will make it go all cold +Can I have another +and then it won't be sticky, I can't roll it out to make those shapes at the moment cos it's too sticky, yes we're gonna have to stick it in the fridge and when it comes out it will be just ready then. +And we can't do any other +I'm afraid we can't do any chopping up into biscuits, I should of checked the recipe before we started really shouldn't I? +Should of started after tea +Yeah, well it doesn't matter does it? +You should of started the morning +Oh we didn't do it in the morning, I was going to do it tomorrow night when you from school. +No, but if you was +Wednesday, yeah we've got to tomorrow after school +right, now, I want six +I want +a minute, that's it now, that's the , right now, what do we need next? +I want it +We need a right,away, tell me when it's +What do you want to do? +Weigh it up +Right that's there +Can we have +It's only weighed a bit +Take your fork out it will weigh less. +What? +If you take the fork out it will weigh even less +look at that? +Where's the margarine +Oh +Now that is the same weigh, what about +amount +Do you like that or not? +Mm, mm +Mm +Mum, +What? +You just take my fork +You just take my cake +It tastes like pastry +Say +It tastes like pastry +Oh, ah, oops careful, cos you just spilt a load of stuff on the table +I like it +oh +Is that raw egg you're eating, do you like it? +Yuck +You can beat raw egg you know,like it. +How does the drink the how does the drink the egg? +Shall I put that back? +I want, oh I wanted to that +Did you? +just put these in a box. +Put these in a box +hello +Have you made some nice biscuits, that's what I want to know? +No we have +Nan we need to have some on them that +When I read the recipe it turned out I have to leave it in the fridge over night, so we can't have it +Oh, I thought you were making those quick biscuits +and me +did you, oh +Oh +I mean I know a recipe quickly +Yeah +pastry +well I did yeah, I did erm one the other for Christopher's school, but I, I didn't realize there was too much erm syrup and stuff in it so erm to do it quick enough cos it's too sticky, but you have to roll it out it's all +Oooh +Oooh +it's not easy, you know how you make pastry +Just a bit of sugar in +sugar in instead, well there's I'm not +oh I thought you were finished then,what number the oven and +Well I'd put the oven on already, but I didn't read it properly +Oh +I'm so hopeless +Perhaps I might get some help +Well you might if you're lucky +Oh +That's +A birthday +Switch the telly off +Mummy's birthday +Blow out the candles +Oh wait a minute I +Happy birthday to you +Blow the candles +Oh I don't have a cake so I the sandwiches to +Oh my word have the camera +that will be +Have you seen that before daddy? +You ain't been wearing that all day +I didn't wear, no wasn't wearing till lunch time was it? +No +So it must of been this afternoon when +Our +I went, I went to the Pig and Whistle the Jolly Farmer +The Jolly Farmer +The Amen +Amen +Amen +Amen +I said +That's +You went to the the Jolly Farmers, what for your lunch? +No really +No where +we went to meet mummy at the Jolly Farmers +said of driving all the way back round to collect them, he said I could walk down to the Jolly Farmers +that's half way to Tesco's and they would have time to be there +Jam +How about some margarine first? +No +No, +I don't want margarine +do the window at me +Ooh what was that? +Nothing, just dropping the jam and the salad cream everywhere on the new pottery, well it's not that new any more is it, so +Erm do you want some margarine on, in first? +Can I have some bread first? +No +I think it might help +I just asked him if he wanted margarine and he said no +Can I have some bread please? +Mm, mm +jam +What would you like +I'd like some chicken roll please. +Shall I pass it to you? +No, no, it's alright thank you I'll just get +do you like them? +Good, would you like some bread to go with it? +Dad can I get some ? +Yes +What? +It's a bit hard actually +How was day? +Very busy I haven't stopped for a second. +Oh +Didn't you have your lunch either? +Well I did have a bit of lunch, yes +You managed to get out for your paper or whatever or is that asking to much? +No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, cos I didn't eat lunch out +Oh of course silly me. +so I haven't stopped, you know, a moment to myself all day, Julie +Julie went home this morning, you know, you know +She did go home, you said +I said she was gonna be ill +she didn't dare not +She did , she did come this morning, but er then had a message that she'd gone home. +At least she showed her face +She, I bet she didn't dare not come, after you said +Didn't say what? +Well yesterday apparently he told her that she had better turn up this morning cos of her excuses. +Can you help me? +She says that she's going to go to the doctor tomorrow to get treatment +Let's see if she's in work tomorrow +Will you help me dad? +Is she that bad? +Mm, sounded alright +Dad I want more please +Poor girl probably die in . +You want some more coleslaw it's not good offering you that son you won't eat it. +I wanted more tasty bread. +Mum give you three, right I'll give you one more +Do you want a lid to this or just holding it Tim? +What? +Do you want a lid to this or +Yes +you just holding it? +I chop it for you? +Yeah +Chop +That marmite is it? +Mum +Mm, mm +Why's it half five? +Five? +No, it's only half past four +But how did you get when it's usually five? +Cos it's broken one in half +cos I had a lid +Oh did you +on one of those +I'm going to put a lid on mine. +I don't want a lid on mine +Thank you +So how's the birthday girl been today? +What you been up too? +Good , very pleasant really. +Started to make some biscuits and then read the recipe afterwards and she had to put it in the fridge for twenty four hours in the, the pastry in the fridge so they couldn't make the biscuits , there I'm sitting here expecting erm, a biscuit and nothing came, dear, it wasn't one of those recipes that you could make it straight away was it? +Brought the wrong stuff then? +No +didn't read the end bit first +I read the ingredients and I thought oh that's good we've got all those things +then +so we'll use that one +so we got all the +blender +Mm +to make this ginger man, man thing +but we that matter +And that didn't have at all, we just made erm biscuit men. +And then they decide, found out they had to put it in the fridge for twenty four hours, so there was I sitting there expecting a biscuit, I didn't get one. +So you're starving are you? +Yeah +Oh dad I saw fairies +Ghosts +Oh I two ghosts came in here, we told them that +Right +Mm +And +wasn't it? +Has anybody been back to school or nursery today? +Been to Holly Cottage? +Not today +Not been down the cottage today? +Mm, yeah +Were there ducks there? +No +No ducks +no eggs, no eggs here oh dear +oh dear +But mum where it there's just one over here, no one 's like +Mm +duck +duck +Erm that's right, everyone's eating with their mouths full. +You mean talking with their mouths full? +I mean that, yes, talking with their mouth full. +Sorry we're so excited. +In the book, no eggs here, oh dear, yeah, it says we're going to +look for the eggs with the ducks, and it says no eggs here, oh dear , the +Oh dear +that ducks do have eggs it's possible they could of been there but they weren't. +I the duck, it said +Yes they might be lucky. +Mm, when I looked on the other page there was more. +Oh you enjoyed Christopher's reading book today. +daddy +daddy +Going to the toilet +Daddy was a +and you wasn't, you wasn't +Mum +and daddy +You have to sit down properly +Cos the +I see +Mum, can I have cake? +Ow +Careful +, still haven't shown me +What haven't I shown you? +What bought you for your birthday +Oh sorry, I will it's just upstairs is it +I know. +See it's such an exciting day. +Did you buy anything else from the +It's +Well look, I've got it all in my sort of purse ready you see, and I went off to town today and you know what I bought? +Zilch +Oh +Nothing. +really, oh dear +Well I was like that once, I didn't see a thing I wanted to buy. +I wasn't there long enough really. +Mum look at me +I had a very happy time looking at things I didn't want +Oh, +Mm, I wasn't fussy that I +I was enjoying it, but I just decided this was not for me +wind up +That's OK cos I got another another time won't we? +Can I have some bread please? +Mm +I wanted some bread +You've got loads of bread +Mm. +I haven't, can I have some pan? +Some pan? +can I have cream? +Wish he'd make his mind up +I didn't say mummy jam, I meant +Well we know what you've said +Well we thought he said jam didn't we Timothy? +We we +We +So you went to town, right and you came home +But I didn't go to town till half past ten I was going to me mother's at half past eleven, so there wasn't a lot of time. +It was I thought you'd of been in town all morning, no. +Was happily pottering about there, did my own thing, I had to open about nine cards when I got home, I didn't think at all +Was there about nine cards? +do that by myself without any help +Don't you like your little helpers? +Mm +Have you got one over there? +And you just bounce, bounce, bounce +You just bounce, bounce over there +No, bounce, bounce, bounce +again +That cream. +What cream? +Salad cream +Cream, salad cream. +Careful cos it's all in the lid, I think he needs help because on that lid take, take it off it will all flop out +Put it on there +Oh, just a minute now then, how much do you want? +There's not very much there. +There's enough for anybody +Shout when +When +I didn't shout when +Just a +I +Wants some more bread +You wants some bread, you've already had two pieces +Chris have erm +You had a little and mine, +I didn't have two +are you? +I didn't have +You had one sandwich, but it's got two +You had a bottom, then you had a top on, sandwich +I didn't, I didn't have a top +I didn't, I never had a bread +Do you want some tomato? +No, I want some bread +Do you need the toilet? +No, sure, haven't been for a long time have you? +Wants some bread +Haven't been for a long time, no, I'm not more +I want some bread +Oh dear +I want bread, I want bread +You want bread what did he have for lunch? +I want +He had a steak and kidney pie +Bread, I want bread +Not exactly delicate +At least I didn't have to send mine back, the chap sitting next to me had +Mummy I want to get erm +I want some bread +What do you think dear, cos this child keeps moping on about bread +Don't you want birthday ? +No +Anybody +I don't +You do, like your daddy. +Half a piece each, ravenous hoard +You got any +Happy, what would you like on it? +Pardon? +cheese +Cheese, tortilla cheese or cream cheese +Dad +cream cheese +Cream cheese please. +Dad can I have the margarine? +With or without margarine, no margarine, just cream cheese, easy. +Is cream cheese the margarine? +There you are +Is margarine cream cheese is margarine? +No it's not. +Is it mum? +What? +Is cream cheese not margarine? +Cream cheese isn't margarine no, you can use cream cheese instead of without +As you like really so you're whacked out dear? +He came home and he just laid the table, very impressive. +I did try and move because of what you said +Does cheese +You don't +You wash up +I've got to wash up +No mummy can't granny +You don't wash up on your, when your mummy's birthday +When it's your birthday +It's mummy's , mummy's birthday +Birthday +Yeah, when it's your birthday, everybody does things for you, everybody's nice to you, have you been nice to mummy all day? +Some of it. +So you went to town, didn't buy anything, went to grandma's, picked her up, went to Holly Cottage +Went to Jolly Farmer +ah, what, you got to Holly Cottage first? +No, we went to Jolly Farmer, dropped my mother in the Jolly Farmer and then I went up to Holly Cottage to collect Tim, then we went up to collect Ti Christopher +I didn't go in the Jolly Farmer even though it sounds as though I did. +Because we thought that would be quicker then you see collect it +They know you same time +Yeah +Right. +and then we off to Tesco's and who did we see in Tesco's once again +Mrs +Mrs , +Again +I think she must make a permanent hotel, we're there, she's there +In the cafe, yeah in the cafe +Look +She was pretending to Mrs today, at school +What's he doing +So Mrs is teaching is she? +There's no Mrs is teaching Mrs class cos +Mum +Mm +How is this gonna +With her dad, daddy was off work today down there +There +right +Have you finished then? +Has he finished? +went along +You not having any cake? +No I don't +Would you like to sit down and watch and see, watch +Aren't you gonna blow out the candles? +There isn't +Yeah you can come and watch anyway +Put candles on +Right, well just watch me have my cake and +have banana +It's apple, apple or apple, helicopter +Where's the banana that's there then? +The banana's are not meant to be +No they're not,is anybody starving I want +I'd rather have have a cup of tea +Well there's apple and the cake is it wet? +Yeah +cos I wash them +turn it round +Yes please, is the helicopter sounds as if it's going to the hospital, oh yes, look there it is, ever so close, can you see it Tim? +Yeah, is it going to the hospital? +Probably. +Why is it going +Well sometimes they fly things in and fly things out. +Flies it out +Like kidneys +properly +well it's true, that's what they're doing just the while we're having our tea +But then, the usual at Birmingham station +Yeah, what do you mean by happily being sarcastic? +Yeah, very, mind you +Mind you, it's probably +it wasn't really their fault, there was a big factory +in Banbury +Mm +and it upset erm, the first thing we it weren't +Mum can I have another +train from, to Redditch and it was +Yeah +and all the . +We are very sorry the train at number eleven platform eleven, when you get to Lemington on it, get out if you're going to Banbury, there will be a coach, because there's a fire at Banbury, well I thought it meant there was something on the other side of the railway, it was, a factory near there so, so then er they get you in +Are we meant to eat these before the cake, is that the idea? +Or is that what everybody's doing? +I'll wait, I'll tell you the story about the fire +Yes, you carry on talking while we chomp +they, they all sitting on, a few of us sitting on the seat, the girl that was all shaky she was going for an interview at a Birmingham University another lady was going on to Northfield +well you're alright , you'll be alright we said if you get on the train where we get on, you're OK, so they get, getting out +It's a place I really like +What place? +Erm then we said er another the train to such a place will be quarter of an hour late, we're very sorry cos it's held up, everything was standing outside the station, er they're all held up with this fire at Banbury, was upsetting everything +This is a bit odd cos Banbury's got a long way to travel +no, but it was upsetting all these journey +why didn't they get rid of the train to Banbury? +Ah? so eventually we got on +Well do , do a lot of the trains go through Banbury? +One an hour +I thought they would oh +about one an hour +this happened to be the hour you see and it was on +O six past the hour +Yeah, yeah six minutes past the hour so there, yeah, so they kept giving you doubts, now if you're getting on this train make sure you get out at Lemington, so at about twenty past twelve, the twelve six went out from platform eleven, why, cos that will upset everything then, by, few of the trains kept coming round, then they said were very sorry but the Shrewsbury train will come in at platform ten that's where we're all waiting, so the ready train be outside somewhere, so, that came in just as the, the twelve, six went out about twenty past twelve these in and this girl got up so we said don't get on this, you'll never get to Birmingham you get on here, wait until we get on we said, cos they changed the train, oh she was getting all worked up, she come from Middlesborough, well I said well, well, anyway, we said no, there, there's no trains for university no, nobody will be going at the right time will they? +there will be quarter of an hour so it's +Yes but, yes but you see they got so mixed up that the , +There's a helicopter again +the Longbridge train, weren't a Longbridge train but +Where? +Don't know, I can hear it +the Longbridge train was still outside at twelve six been out there, so a little bit they gave +You miss +the little bit they gave out the Longbridge train then they said oh know the twelve O six +that +there it is, oh look +Ah +Yeah ain't it? +Well it's the +So he, they got themselves right mixed up, platform changed +He'll go round again +What's it +circle again +There's another one +Another one? +Yeah, there's two +Oh something's up +Not that cloudy though +Yeah there's one there +that's it? +oh dear +Oh +They will have to wait to come in now +Definitely two of them just see the other one's just going over the +yeah, yeah they will have to wait to come in won't they? +only two, one after the other +Yeah +Exciting two lots of kidneys +Yeah well changes platforms of all these trains, anyway after a bit we decided that the Redditch train was going to come in before the train, so, er they didn't change it to say it wasn't going to Redditch cos once when I was doing that they said to me, the lad was it,because it's not to ready to change that time, you wouldn't matter, cos oh there's people here waiting to go to Redditch, change it, so he said oh anyway it came, the twelve six came all the young folks going to you should of seen the number that had got off +altogether aren't they? +Oops +but er, a lot of them got on the twelve six, you goes the twelve thirty one any way we waved to her when she got on it the coach you see was full at Bart Green, you got, at Redditch +Did you not get on it then? +Oh well, yes +Is there every time when +cos I mean there must be quite +it wasn't +Mum +completely full +Yeah, people were having two seats to one person +That's right they only have it off the +and when it comes to the +There's a bit of apple there +There, that's OK, don't worry, do you need to go to the toilet? +Have a look see, got a bit of apple there +Yeah, please go to the toilet before my cake come on +He'll want to go to the toilet when you start blowing the candles out little horror +I'd should go too if I were you. +Nip off quick, do you need to go? +Before we get candles for mummy's cake +before the cake , right +wet seat +Who did? +over here. +Where? +There. +I think it will be nice if you sat on your chair, don't you think it will be nice if he sat on his chair? +Oh definitely, spoil the if you don't +I'll shan't think that you're there if you do, go on +Go and +Oh +stand next to mummy +you're tired? +He's tired +You're whacked out aren't you? +doesn't really know what to do +It's all that rushing around Aravalley Park, we haven't told daddy about going to Aravalley Park +Ooh, I don't want to look daddy I'm passing you er +You're not having any +well if he's still wandering about, no he's decided he's not having cake though +Eh, the birthday +I'm excited +well just leave it there because it won't matter, but daddy doesn't want me to see you see before it comes out, it makes it more exciting that way, want to come and sit on my knee? +No, want to stand +Alright, want a snuggle woggle instead? +Oh I thought +No, no leave the door cos daddy doesn't want mummy to see what he's doing in the kitchen see, if you keep moving that she can see. +Were you thinking of taking a walk with it? +Yeah. +Oh I see, go on then +That apple +Carry on, don't bump into daddy on his way this way +Daddy +you go that way +There's only me and you left at this table +Dun, dun, dun, I be quick cos daddy just got it +Right +I see the, had the birthday and I went away +Is it excited, are you going to sing for me? +Yeah I'm going to play it on my guitar +Oh that will be even nicer +That's a good idea ain't it? +Where's my gone? +No, I think I put it on the er window sill somewhere +Collect appearing and disappearing +Well I, I, did see it, I think, I don't know whether I put it on, just look, look on the window sill and then +Daddy, I think we need some new plates here +Right +Try and on these plates, can we? +Dread to think what the cake's like, dread to think what sort of cake we've got +Dad +Oh thank you +here comes the accompaniment +it's better than teaching to play +happy birthday it's my mum +not that I enjoy teaching my +here's a song, don't sing it +I won't sing a word +no I got a, we've got a +I'm looking forward to using my cutters, I'm a bit disappointed I think +Well I was just the one sitting there waiting for and nothing came +I know the ginger bread boy cutter is rather large, I'm not quite sure have to do it +A painful I shall have to use it fairly rapidly +Couldn't you make a sort of sponge cake with it? +How? +Can't you make the cake and then cut it? +Not yet +Not yet +Not yet mummy +Yeah I could do then use the bits for pudding or something +Yeah. +It's got a sort of metal bar across I don't understand why that would be, why we have a little metal bar across. +Oh to push out, make some things +for later +Coming +I do too +I +Ooh, all dark, ooh look at this, happy birthday round the outside, oh it's erm +Oh I say +what's it called, Flintstone it's the Flintstones +That's alright, right shall we sing +right come along let's hear it +happy birthday to you, happy birthday to you, happy birthday +sing as well Tim +dear +happy birthday to you +,we can do it again can't we? +Yeah +Here we go, let's light them all again cos we've got to come and take a picture, some pictures. +Right Tim you can sing to me again then +Can I sing +Go and stand near mummy +dad's going to light them and then you can blow them +If you went to daddy and +I can see what you're doing +Oooh +Go round the other side and stand near mummy, then you'll be on me picture +I want +Don't forget to get the Flintstones in will you? +The Flintstones +Yaba daba doo +Daddy I'm this side +I just remember that's , don't get the cloth in will you dear? +Right you two if you get in close, get in +Get a bit nearer +Oh, go past mummy that's it. +right going to sing while we, while they take a picture for me +Right +hold Tim +It's alright, he's getting his guitar dear +Right +Hurry up +Hurry up cos the candles have nearly gone down , right +Right look at, look at dad +Right you gonna sing or not? +Yeah +Go +happy birthday to you, happy birthday to you, happy birthday dear +Mummy I'm called. +mummy, happy birthday to you +One of you couldn't decide what I'm called +Blow it out +Well hold on would you wait for grandma +Right, are you ready? +Mm, wait for grandma +Cheese for grandma +then I'll take a picture of mummy blowing it, in a minute, ready, cheese grandma +Can we all blow them? +Yeah, you can blow them instead of me if you like, oh no it's got to be me has it, for the picture? +Alright, you ready? +Alright then, the next one afterwards +Alright you ready? +You all blow +The one after +We all blow together right, ready, one, two, three +Shall I bring some more knives? +Just +What but we didn't look. +Did it, snow, oh dear +We had the hail stones, he said he could look out and there was a cover of snow over everything +but we didn't look. +I think we had hail stones when we were in +We did , erm, +Oh dear +on a Friday night, no a Friday night +no way +we only just got started +no way +well I'm in the way cos I'm sitting having my tea and you're supposed to be sitting having your tea, but you're playing lorries +No +You come and do it here Tim or you sit down there +The word is excuse me please +Excuse me +What you have to fill in what you've done. +Oh I have to fill in who's talking and things like this, I'm just doing it now cos otherwise I will forget you know +You won't forget that lot +Time, six, ten. +We've been to Valley Park this afternoon +Have you? +Was that nice? +Got some fresh air, yes it was very nice cos there was other people doing the same with little children, there was no big children except for +that was very nice daddy, the cake +Mm +You like it do you? +Good, how old are you dear, thirty six? +How old's mummy? +How old's mummy? +Thirty five +Thirty five,thirt +that says +thirty five, thirty six +dad say yours is +I'm a bit older than mummy +Just one year +One year yeah that's right +One year +That's right +Well it's a bit more than one year really cos sometimes there's +Oh don't confuse him +No, sorry +It's one and a half years +And that's not very lot, well not +just over six months +Just over half a year +Yeah, well it's longer than mine +Not a year +Not, longer than mine though +Yes yes it is +books +Right +Are you going to enjoy your birthday cake mummy? +Mm, what are they pictures taste like? +Mm not too bad is it? +Mummy +Is this a spare knife? +Mum, it they couldn't take +Did you know it was gonna be chocolate? +Yes +It said so? +Mm +This one with chocolate was more expensive than the other one +Mum +Probably why +mummy +Mm, the lady at the checkout when I got Tim's that time, do you remember, cos all the birthdays come together and I saw that for Tim so it make him one +You bought one, it were nice that +I bought one for Tim, it taste quite nice, the lady at the checkout said it would, is that you kicking me or the +one, yes, erm,was another lady and child, taking beeline for birthday cake, you know, they went out the same checkout as I did +cos erm, usually on a Monday there's hardly anybody there at all, you know, they I should think we represented half the you know, just +Do you? +Does anybody want any more tea? +Yes please +Maybe it's getting a bit cold by now +It's not too bad daddy +Isn't it? +Cos mummy was saying didn't say +Had to do some washing up at work today +Did you? +For nine +What? +nine people +Why? +Gilbert , Gilbert insisted that we provide coffee for all the people +For all of the people? +Oh +so erm, he went to speak to one of the Director's secretary, to go and buy all the cups, I had to provide the sugar +and er, then of course Gilbert went off for another reason to +and left you washing up +I had to do the washing up +How old is Gilbert? +He looks extremely young, is he +He does look young +is he as young as he looks? +No he isn't, no he's round about my age +Is he? +Might be a year or two younger +He looks like twenty three to me +Mummy +Mummy +Gosh these two boys +What, do you want the toilet? +No, just need a hug +Daddy is bigger than mummy aren't you? +But not not +That was very nice +for the birthday girl +Got to put +You're not often very cuddly are you? +If you want two three, four, five, six, seven, eight +That's right. +Well done Tim, eight there +There's only eight balloons mum one, two, three, four +Eight will they? +No that must be because it's +I enjoyed that +One, two, three +That +It's this game +eleven, eight, nine +one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen +Well you wouldn't want to would you? +Mm you'd want more than would you? +Fourteen, fourteen +What's fourteen? +I wouldn't want more than +These things +because different +There be twelve , there's eight there, nine, ten, eleven, twelve +Oh no +So you want +One, two, three, four, five, six, seven +You chocolate on the top of where the chocolate +One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, I want drink +Mum , I remember bit which I don't like of the cake +Mm +You see the top bit over the top? +mm +It's not that picture of what he said it's the little bit in there +Mm, I like that +I like that +Mummy +I like the black chocolate bit +mummy +it's between bit I don't like +Oh +I thought it was very nice, I enjoyed it all +Well worth the I suppose dear +All of us finished , all of us finished +I know +Mum +You did very well to have gone birthday and get home in time for, whatever time it was you did +You birthday mum can have all of that +I did actually go into Sainsbury's on the way home, but I +Did you? +They haven't got any thing have like, no, I tried that with er Tim, cos Sainsbury's would of been really more on your way wouldn't it? +Yeah +Naughty mummy +You haven't got any +She had +I'm surprised at that +It's probably because +They have +a shopping Sainsbury's +They had +individual things, you can buy sort of individual cream cakes and things like that from the bakers actually, you can't buy like individual ones +They might have them frozen in the frozen bit, frozen gateaux and stuff +But it's not quite the same with sort of birthday cake with a fancy thing round it is it? +Mm +I've shown him these I've show him that thing where +Christopher staring again +Mummy +So we're gonna get the original magazine or have you already got it? +You can buy it yes +Well I, I think they will give it to us, cos er, Martin what's his name said that we'd get complimentary copies, yeah you mustn't touch those Tim cos those are matches and children never, never touch matches do they? +Why? +Because if they suddenly catch fire guess what would happen? +We shall lose him +All the house will be burnt down +And you as well +and be very, very sad +and you'd get very sad and it would hurt a lot. +All day +Yes +Mm +And all of us wanna be burnt +Yes +Yes all of us could get burnt +and all our things +and your guitar, everything +But even if we ran out +Well we but the house wouldn't would it? +It would be sad if we lost everything wouldn't it? +So you won't play with matches? +If you get a match and you strike it on something else it would still +Yes, it can do +And we get out all the way +even the box if you strike it on that, that will +But it strikes on particular things, it strikes on something rough, but you never quite know, know what, not, no good trying it out because you never quite know whether it's going to strike or not, when you get to be older, we'll allow you to strike a match, but you have to be quite older to do that +Mummy +we'll show you how it works +It's best to know isn't it? +I did +I'd rather be around at the time +That's why you stand and play with matches +Mm mind you some children fish about it in cupboards don't they? +Oh +You know high up +Cos high up, erm, I usually ten people before they reach +Hello you back again? +Yeah +, what do you want now? +Well some people do very good things well I +You +You want me? +Some people tidy up time +Over here, +and erm she has a +Oh how you got a light on? +How you got a light on? +Why have I got a light on? +Well we wanted to see what we're eating. +how did you put it on +Somebody switched it on I expect, we wanted to see the cake didn't we? +Somebody put it on after you blow the candles out +Yeah +I never did, I never do +Who did it? +Daddy I think +No he didn't +I did +You didn't +You had your eyes shut +Do you need the toilet yet? +No +Well you must do soon +I expect so +No I don't want the telly +Do we really need any more telly? +No. +Story time I think +Twenty past six already +I want erm watch the +But you said +Well I know I said but, I didn't realize what time it will be, why don't we wait until tomorrow morning and then you can watch P C Postman before you go to school? +I want to watch, I +That will be an exciting thing to wat look forward to +Move it quickly +I want to watch +forward a bit +the telly +It went long ago +I want to watch +I thought he did +telly I wanted to watch the telly +Then you'll lovey, let's get you a book, read you a story and pop you in bed, mm? +No I don't want to I wanna watch the telly +I want to play a bit with dad +You want to play a bit with dad? +Mm, I want to play with +I'll wash up +dad +Oh good gracious +When you wash them +They're not dirty +give them a good scrub +Dad, will +Mm, as opposed to a little dip, good scrub +No, that was daddy +Oh you find something +I want to play with you +Looking, well I'm just +I want to play with you I want to play with you +Yeah, I'll play with you, do you want to play cars? +I want to play bricks +Bricks +and cars +and cars then we'll have a story +Mum,playing cards here? +It seems a shame, yeah, yeah nice innit. +A shame to pull, shout them out behind the curtain +er? +Oh +Whatever was that? +it's only the brick +Mm +it's only the brick, do you want some help wash washing up? +Well you can push it through +Chris and your with advice as to where to get thousands of candles should I need them +Er he just played this +I don't know I wasn't listening +Mm +go on then +go on then +It went like this, I need two of them +Er, who's is this +and then five of those , mum are there +They've got the numbers here look, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven +One, two, three, four, five, six but we don't need seven +No, not for twinkle, twinkle little star +No, but we need it for +Right Tim I think you've got enough over here +No, need a bit more,game +I don't think you can play one, two, three, four, five on there can you? +Can we play it on the big one? +I don't know, just have to play it on the piano I think before you oh Tim, what have you done dear? +Oh, we lose them +We have made a mess , you will lose them, you're right +We lose them +Just dropped all the gear down there +Alright then mum +if you're interested, then we can do that in the bath, can you put them in the box first +Tim can you come and +I didn't tip them out +you didn't mean to do that, it just happened +it went like that +got to put them all , yeah well who's going to put them all back in, daddy's helping look +I didn't drop them +you go and help him +I, I, I didn't drop them +Yeah, are you going to help me? +Aren't you playing the piano?shall we get that book that you have, it's yellow I think it's down there, we haven't done that for a long time have we, we can do that while daddy and Tim are playing +Here? +Should be , yeah, somewhere on there, +Right, Tim can we come and play please? +no on that flat pile +Tim don't bring everything over +on the flat pile bottom, no, bottom of the drawer, the book +What's that, does that want throwing out? +I think so, I don't know what that is +Dad, help me +I don't think you need everything +many things +Here's my book +What you going to play with? +Read the classic beginning of the book +You know, where the film was all the time mummy +Did you know where the film was? +Now where was I? +On the piano +Mm, mm +I knew it was +But that was sitting there and when the and it was easy to tune +daddy +it's better when we don't where our +Mm, it would of been better really, but never mind +Well it's a good job that +we'll just be thankful for what we've got shall we? +Actually I'm not very fond of the school piano it's +Did you find all the keys? +Find +Line them with your little finger on the other hand, or your thumb on the other hand will do +that's it find them on your other hand, your other hand +ah? +find them with your other hand +You only have to do the other, you have to do there, have to find a C? +Yeah, just tells you about finding the C's, can you find them with this hand? +I had that +Find it with that one +I need a flat C now, what's this? +This is the middle C's really +Oh +Where they come right, that's the one with the right hand , this one, in the middle +you have to do it with that hand +I hurt that one +key in the middle, why? +In the middle of the piano, you're not +yeah that +sitting on the chair properly +that key there +and there's three there +and one, two. +I know it doesn't work quite like that, that is the one OK, can you take the other hand, that's that one +How many do I have to do? +Put a right hand on that one +How many do I have to do it with? +Just do one there, don't panic right now +now this is +the one where you do where we going +One, two, have to count four, do you remember? +One, two, three, hold it on while we count four two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four +Two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four +Remember, OK? +One, two, three, four +One, two, three, four, one two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one two, three, four +Brilliant, OK +I'll show you how to play with the other hand +Other hand oh, wait till I +Practise +One +We're look at the wrong music +oh, you have to do, how many, four again? +Yes +One, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four +Brilliant have a go +now one, two, three one +Hold on, you didn't count before we counted three +Do you want me to put +Oh, what +Erm, if you just leave it out somewhere we'll put it away +One, two, three, four +Pardon? +Just leave it out +one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four. +that right, +oh now then, do you remember the clock +Aaagh +before you have to count two there then another two there, it goes one, two, three, four +Alright then, let's try +What, you start with your other hand, start with your right hand that's it +And you go to that one +that's it +that one +you've got it +right +one, two +one, two that one +and again +I'll try again one, two, three +one, two, three , ah, ah, ah, that's the, still the same hand there, you have to do two with that hand and then two with that one +yeah, two with that, two with that one +Yeah, OK, right ready, one, two, three, four +one, two, three, now swap hands, one, two, three, four, let's start again +one, two, three, four, ah, I know now let me try +Yeah, go on +one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four +one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four +That's it, brilliant +Right +OK, can you do all that lot then, while I do this little bit? +Want to try it all together +Alright, go on then +this one or that one? +Well you tell me, that one's your right hand, that one's your left hand, which is your right hand? +That's it. +That's right? +That's your right hand and that's the top one there, this little squiggly thing here +Right then, shall we do +one, two, three, four, +one, two, three, four +one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three four +That's clever, well done +Right, OK, see if you can do it with me messing about down here then +One +Hold on, give me four +one, two, three, four one, two, three, four +brilliant that was +Ah, now this is the one I haven't done for a long time, now this is the one +Now have a look at it and see what you've got to do with that, got to go one, two, three, four +one, two, three, four +with that hand do you know +and then one, two, three, four with that hand +That's it +Oh it's just the same as that one +Well it is except +you've got to go one, two, three, four, clonk, clonk, clonk, clonk +one, two, three, four +That's it, and then swap hands +but you go like that, go on then, +Yes, +, one, two,one, two,one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four +brilliant, OK, right let's see +and then +how we go +give me four to start with, I shall +one +keep that hand ready otherwise you'll discover that it's not there when you want it, use it, OK +one, two, three, four +hey, hold on go steady with it one +one, two, three, four +four , +Well done, you had a technical hitch in the middle, but we did that, we got there oh now then, do you remember this one? +I haven't done that +Yes you did all of that, you did all about the +I don't think we did this one properly did we?you only use your right hand cos you push on that foot +yeah, look, there's a C remember, then it changes a note to a D +Then D +That's it, find your C +Yeah that's the C now you go like this +And where's your D? +You go like this do you? +C +That's it, but use this finger this time +No you go C, D, C, D +You do more or less go like it +but not quite, we shall just have to see how it goes +Goes +yeah that only got to count for four, that's gonna go one, two, three, four +one, two, three, four +then to D one, two, three, four +one, two, three, four +back to C, but this time only two one, two +one, two +then D one, two +one, two +then up again one, two, one, two +one, two, one, two +and then you've got to go bomp, ba bomp, +Yeah, go on then +but why, why go mum +Mm +why do you have do it with that one? +Why don't +Cos supposed to be a +Why's it like a train? +Perhaps when you hear that bit you'll hear it's still like a train C, D there C, D, C, D, C, D, C, D +C, D, C, D, C, D, C, D +now careful +oh erm +C, C, D, D, C, D, C, D +C, C, D, D, C, D, C, D +Well done, that was very clever +that would be the +if you play it so you get it all right +Mm +one, two, +that, tut, one, two, three, four one, two, three, four, one, two, three +one, two, three, four one, two, three, four, one, two, three , no go on change on that +one, two, three, four +one, two, three, four , up again +one, two, three, four, one, two +one, two, three, four, one, two got to go back up +one +now we've just got to go one, two, three, four this time one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one +one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four oh +one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four +one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four +Well done,that, so that goes for four, that's for four then those go one, two, three, four, like that you see, but it's four +down there, do you want another go, with me doing that funny bit? +Watch out +Shall we have a go and see what happens? +We might have a disaster but it won't matter we can try. +Mum, won't it one, two? +Four that one, that's the four, that's the four, that's the two, that's the two, that's the two, that's the two and that is a one, bom, bom, bom, bom, bom +that a that's that's the one +Yes, you should go right at the beginning +four and +another four +another four four, four, right +OK +and then it goes +right, OK ready? +One, two, three, four one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four +one, two, three, four one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four +That was good,started out just getting going. +Do you think, shall we have another go at playing +can daddy hear then +Daddy can you hear our train train here +Oh that would be nice, I could hear them over here. +one, two, three, four +one, two, three, four , one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, +Whoops, you've forgot to change one, two, three, four alright, try again, right one, two, three, four +one, two, three, four one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, +Well done, yeah,on the next page,on the next page +and I every done any +ooh,with your other hand +have you ev do you know how to play? +I'll try my best +look at this, you've got to do this with your left hand this time. +This one? +Yeah and this time there's a C there and then that's a B +B goes like this? +Mm +that +No, no C and B this time, we're going down a bit, it's in your left hand +Oh +got C then this one B +is that like, what's that? +D +D, is that the D? +Right, you ready? +Right, +one, two, oh, hold on +one, two, three, four +one, two, three, four , one, two, three, hold on, hold on, hold on, that's a four that one, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four +two, three, four +oops, that's got to go fast that one, one, two, three, four, cos they're crotchet one, two, three, four, remember? +Mm +Right, ok one, two, three, four,one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three +one, two, three, four,one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three +one, two, three, four +one, two, three, four +Did I do it wrong? +Nearly, you were in nearly alright, I'll play it for you up to there ready it goes like this one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, and this is this bit, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four +Oh it's both the same +Not quite cos those are minims there look with the lines down, but the whole +is it +one, two, three, four one, two, three, four, one, two, three +one, two, three, four one, two, three, four, one, two, three +Whoop you did it wrong, got the wrong note there, there that's the alright? +One, two, three, four one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four +One, two, three, four one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four +Good lad, well done, that was very clever you've never done that before have you? +No +And then you have to do the same thing again for the second line look +Ah, a different +No it's exactly the same look boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom +a different one of time +No same time and everything, same thing all over again +why did they go like, do you have to do it both together? +No, you do that line first then you do exactly the same thing again +At the same time? +No, after it +Then you can do it well +well it should be easy you play that and then you play that +Oh, well mum I want to try and do it +Go on then, do you want me to point? +Yeah +One, two +Is that it? +Yeah, three, four one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, three, four +one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, three, four +then again +oh +one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four +one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four +brilliant +Who some of these +Let's go and check who it is with Tim +Is it for mummy or daddy? +Yeah, it's grandpa +It's grandpa, that's exciting, hello grandpa +Granny, granny +it is grandpa too +grandpa +thank you very much , oh are you not going to sing? +I shouted breakfast is ready and then I started my breakfast, cos you had gone upstairs weren't you? +I don't think we've got any this morning +Are you going to work? +Yeah, he's going to work +How did it get really big mummy? +How's Tim, cos he doesn't sit down properly +He's, finished. +Have you seen the butter Tim? +Is he a fidget +He's kneeling up +Is that enough milk Christopher it's very good +It's just that I'm saving. +Put it more milk over the, that, what about that bit there dad. +Er mum it doesn't matter where everything's got milk on does it? +It doesn't matter what? +Where everything's got milk +Here's one +when everything's got milk on it +No, I wouldn't eat half of an apple +here's one +Will you sit down on your bottom +oh no +Yeah +cos I don't +I think I'm looking forward to a normal day honey +Yeah, would be when I'm away. +This is +A bit proud of it you know +Bit of a +seems to be wide awake could of got up +What, was +I weren't very good I'm afraid +What day is it? +What do you think? +It's +It was Tuesday yesterday. +What day is it today? +There's Monday, Tuesday +Wednesday +Wednesday well done +Yes ,on a Wednesday, this is the day when mummy goes teaching at school in the afternoon +I did +Christopher's school +Mm, mm. +and do you still have story time +story time I think, Mrs still there and that Mrs did he tell you +Yes he did, with Imogen +Alright,it's old age you know, +Erm, you didn't tell me anything about what said +wants a whole don't are they? +Who wants a whole? +want to swap it over +A whole? +Erm +Certainly not a whole that one +Do you want a whole? +Yeah, I want a whole with that whole +Erm apparently +You can't have a toast cos I'm gonna have a one +You have a half of it so the whole of it. +I wanted a whole one +Oh no you don't +I wanted a whole +I don't like wholes +You'll get it'll be half a whole , get me a bit confused here +Erm especially +I did see it on the +Mum +Mum, can I have a whole piece of toast please? +No, +Is Tim having it? +It's +Oh dear +Mum +I just wondered +I forgot to +Oh dear +I spoke to that was Monday night, yeah, she's been head of department, did I tell you that? +You didn't say anything about that +Oh right,I thought I told you then. +No, +Oh, well she rang up, I've seen Christopher in the catalogue +actually +and +they +and could ask if publications can +the one that we see +We've seen the book +yeah, ah, ah, she's seen the catalogue, ah +she's got, on the, yeah +I see +he's in the catalogue +oh yeah +I thought it was going to be a magazine? +Oh, oh no, you're getting confused, you know the book that is out, that is on +Yes , yes +beginning careers, well it is in a catalogue, the book is in a catalogue, yeah, so there's a front cover of the book sitting in the catalogue smiling at her, saying please buy this book of Christopher. +Oh I see, so he's even more liked +Yeah +We don't want to buy it, we just want the catalogue +I see, oh +So she's ordered it because +she's started Liam, they're having a pre-packed school at Durham choir boys, whatever it is, cos he's from school,apparently the locality of demanding six year olds and under so they and another la labouring school +Oh +Oh Tim +Put it on there, oh it's too late to put it on there, oh that's alright do it like that +I can't +You can use your cloth daddy +Mum +Yeah +you haven't, mum,doesn't know +No +You do it +What are you +You do it +Do what? +Mm +What do you want me to do? +That do +Just leave that on the plate like that, that's fine +Why? +Er +It's when we're going to take it in the kitchen and put it away when we've finished. +Anyway +I've had enough +Right, just, she said she's going to be head of department, it starts at ten OK, so she'll be ahead of herself, then as she'll be responsible for getting staff said she still hasn't, got she said, little love +I didn't want a, a whole +Timothy wanted the whole dear +They've both got whole +Oh that's clever +That's it +They they both had half a whole, I thought that's what you said half a whole +Oh dear, yeah that was my fault, sorry now if you have my plate then you won't have any trouble with that erm, what +Erm, I'll eat the half +Teach us what age are they? +Erm, erm +What age will she teach then? +seven, eight year old boys at the moment, and she will teach children under +That's enough +she, which is what she did at well she had the five to six +read +I guess she really liked those, she only got moved because of er the +Yeah +spread it +I am +Hurry up cos he wants the margarine, can he have the margarine while you're spreading on? +I think you've got enough there haven't you? +Mum +Mm +I've had the +Did you? +Yeah I had it go over there +When we've had half a whole, I'm thinking half a whole +we have got half a whole +No they've got half a whole +Oh, they've also got half a +Yeah +I thought I was making the best of both answers +You were dear, very clever +I can do it, how can you tell the difference? +Well there's two different wholes aren't there?chop toast you can chop either that way or that way +The one with you chop the chop and then there will be squares +That's right, there will be four then, four bits, life is so complicated. +Mum, but it's tricky because when, when you chop that way, and then that way chop it that way it's all +Mum +and +Ours do actually +Empty now Tim? +What would you like now Tim on there? +Seemed to have got rather a lot of margarine on there, hope you're going to eat all your toast today, not like yesterday +Erm margarine +the margarine +yeah +you've got margarine what else would you like? +Marmite +Mum, my fingers are +Rice Krispie in where? +In my tea, oh yes there is , soggy, it's out +how did it get there? +I don't know +plopped in +,toast in my +Probably dropped in when we were shaking them in the bowl, Rice Krispies seemed to get everywhere, undo the thing and there's Rice Krispies everywhere, +And there not only good +It's a hoover day today Tim +Why? +We haven't clean for ages +It's hoover day +so we'll have a go at it today +And where I gonna go? +You're gonna help me, you're gonna stay here I'm afraid +Why? +Me and you doing the cleaning in the morning now granddad's off +What I, where I gonna go? +You're not going anywhere, you're staying here +Can I help you plant the ? +Bulbs, er probably not cos I think I'll have to do while you're at school cos daddy tells me it's gonna rain this afternoon, I'll have to do that this morning, pity that. +Why can't we do them tomorrow? +Because it said on the packet you'll plant them immediately after buying and we don't know when Aunty Gwen bought them and it might rain tomorrow as well, I think I ought to put them in while it's fine, now +In +in the ground, I'll save you a couple if you like, you can plant two by yourself. +I'm not a plant that you must of bought them yesterday. +Mm. +I'm +You want to plant them, you can help me plant them cos you'll be around +Can I have +It seems pity to go to school and not plant bulbs +And daddy going to go work +Yeah, there be me and you planting bulbs and cleaning the house this morning +That's a lot +Yeah it's a jobs morning this morning kitchen floors a good thing, we'll have to kitchen floor Tim, that'll be fun won't it? +With Christopher +No he'll be at school, just me and you, scrubbing away at the floor you'd rather do it with Christopher wouldn't you? +Sorry about that. +Tim help us do the garden +Mm, well he won't because you'll be at school +you'll have to wait till the holidays and then Christopher can join in and +It Saturday's +Mm +Where holiday +Where is I have, where we have to go to +When you what what , say that all again +Because, mum how long are we staying at Jo's? +Oh that's ages away you know, it's not till May, you can go two nights at Jo's +Two nights about and what day do we go? +Go on Saturday +Saturday, so we go home +No +go home +stay Saturday night and Sunday night and we go back on Monday +yeah +but we won't be going home, we'll be going to York +Straight after +Mm, mm +Why? +Cos we it's a long, long way to Jo's and just to go, right all that way for two nights would not really be worth it. +Tim erm licked your knife,right can we erm have a I've got to go in a minute. +I'll just have that +I wish to choose +Oh dear +Erm, +A wise man built his house upon the rock, a wise man built his house upon the rock, the wise man built his house upon the rock and the rain came tumbling down, and the rain came down and the flood came up and the rain came down and the flood came up +A wise man built his house upon the rock, a wise man built his house upon the rock, the wise man built his house upon the rock and the rain came tumbling down, and the rain came down and the flood came up and the rain came down and the flood came up +I drop it +the rain came down and the floods came up and the house on the rocks slid down, but the foolish man built his house upon the sand, the foolish man built his house upon the sand, the foolish man built his house upon the sand and the rain came tumbling down +the rain came down and the floods came up and the house on the rocks slid down, but the foolish man built his house upon the sand, the foolish man built his house upon the sand, the foolish man built his house upon the sand and the rain came tumbling down +splish, splash and the rain came down and floods came up, the rain came down and the floods came up, the rain came down and the floods came up and the house on his band fell flat +and the rain came down and floods came up, the rain came down and the floods came up, the rain came down and the floods came up and the house on his band fell flat +That's the flat bit +Mm +Mum +I'll be +Are you ready? +Lord Jesus, thank you for a nice sleep, thank you for another day, please help us to do the kind of things that you want us to do, prayer for Christopher to behave at school, help him to do his best and for daddy at work, for Tim and I as we stay at home, help us to know the kind of things we do and this afternoon when grandma comes we'll spare the time for her as well, Amen. +Amen +I think he's ,I read and the rain do +Rightie oh oh. +Can you wipe your hands please cos you'll get sticky all over the piano +Mum I've wiped +Do it again +Do it more +do it lot's and lot's +cos I've noticed it's very sticky on here, that you should wipe it cos it +Why? +Cos it, if you put sticky fingers on, you won't mean to, it'll just won't +How did you know before you touch the piano? +Because I felt them last night and felt ooh this sticky anyway oops +You be home normal time or even earlier later +I was, estimate normal time +Mum +Ok +which hand do I have to do it with? +half side each or +mum +What? +Mummy +well I think half five, but then sometimes quarter to +Yeah I know +Mum +I suppose I ought to think quarter to six +mummy +so I have this pleasant surprise when I +I stay in the car cos er I don't want to walk, too cold +You don't want to walk where? +To school it's +Well we have to walk to school love +in the car , +In the car let's do a gap Christopher +One, two, three, four +That's very good +Bye Tim +One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight +Bye, bye everybody +Bye, bye everybody +Bye, bye everybody, +well +daddy +bye, bye daddy +I don't know what I'm saying +One, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four +it +Tim will you eat it up please? +You it +one, two, three, four +you don't want it all, that your trouble? +I don't want them all up there +Why not? +Let me chop you that much, you eat up that +Did you hear what I said mummy? +Mm, oh very good aren't you? +Did that one then +Can do you it, can you? +Can you do that one? +Oh you've got to do some writing first. +I don't want to again, +Oh come on Christopher come and sometimes it in the right panel, that's the right panel there and then it goes in the left hand and then it goes to the right hand and then it goes to the left then right, the left, the right, left, right, left, confusing, but it's that hand to start with +and go like this one, two, three, four +it goes one, two, three, four +they go one, two, three, four +hang about, you see what it says here oh you don't play that one, just the something for you to write underneath, I thought it was complicated +Did, did, +that's all something to do with writing that one +need to read a song? +I don't need to, no, you just have to write it +Is it this one mummy? +Yep +My get a +Come on Tim please move +Oh, oh +or else we're going to be late +are we doing the bulbs now? +aren't we, yeah it's going to rain as well, look at that, we're gonna have to put our coats, our rain coats on +Oh +it's raining in time for us to go to school, come on +Oh Tim come on, aagh +I don't know, they've probably gone a different way today +why,she set off before it rained +Just don't let anything +No +I buyed one, Timmy's dry isn't he? +Yeah, you +Oh +Come on Tim, you coming? +Pardon? +I think everybody's just going in +Ah there's Jane look morning +your boy's take them in +, Jane come here +near the window, see you later, bye, bye, love you, see you later here you go then, bye Annie see you later, love you +Oh sorry take care +I play that money game +Want to play what money game? +That money game with one +Well we've got to we'll go there later. +We'll change the sheets on your bed Tim +sheets off your bed +No that's not I just thought to change a wash, cos I think they've been on there rather a long time. +Some more in there +Mm, there all set +Yep, think, no +keep putting +I can't +Just put one thing in, not a whole lot of things +I can't do it +That's don't like this rain ,extra grass, grass seed, the other day just on those bare patches. +No. +Wait a minute we have soap in +there we are +too much, wow aha, I'll switch the top one you can switch the bottom one, there +Where? +pull it out then, that's it well done now what time is it now? +Twelve +Oh, oh I feel very satisfied I've managed to clean the place +Er, have you done your picnic thing? +What picnic thing? +Put your slots in +Picnic thing, put your slots in +Oh no, not yet, I for a while it's on the er +display. +Open me post now for the first time, oh oh that's nice oh I can have a update for supply teachers, Wednesday the fifteenth of April, you baby sit for me? +What you do? +It's a day, trip +What day? +Computers, you know, software on computers. +Well I tried to get on one on Monday +I tried to get on one two Mondays ago in Redditch +and they told me that I was too late, the school told me too late +so I rang up the place and said I would like to go are you having another? +They said there's a possibility of one coming erm April in Kidderminster if you're interested and I said well I would be interested +now it says I'm now able to offer you the arranged dates +for the update for Friday +Oh +There's no trouble is it really, just the morning as well as the afternoon and collecting Christopher as well +Quite, I can't +It starts at nine fifteen, so I'd have to bring him over to you quite, quite early +You bring him to me and then +Yeah +and then I can take you home afterwards, see if it finishes at three I won't be home till quarter to four at the earliest +Oh we should just be right, won't we? +Yeah oh I'll enjoy that, it'll be a nice little trip please bring +a packed lunch, coffee will be provided, no funding available for travelling or subsistence costs, typical +they always do this on a supplies teacher, you have to go because you want to do it +Well this is a cheek really because I should imagine it's one of the most +over subscribed courses as well, I mean when I went on the language and, and the national curriculum and that other thing that I did on the national curriculum, masses of people there. +What are you thinking of +Is his face +I did +I thought what a pretty thing to do +Are you happy to do it, are you away or here? +I won't be able away I don't think +Fifteenth of April +That's the week before +I was hoping they weren't gonna put it on a silly day +That's erm +Is it? +I'm gonna wake you up +When's Easter then? +End of April isn't it? +Oh, it could well be then +Mary's talking about +Oh will she be here +Right, those poor need feeding again +They don't go +Doing what you told me to unload it +Oh I'm really pleased about that, cos last time on a, I was really disappointed I'd been refused the course cos I thought oh, it'll be right up my street that, cos when I was teaching full time I was quite into these er computers at the beginning and the one that went +That's too much +miles out. +You know if it had been in +It's too much +It's not too much, it's fine, you watch them gobble it down, only because it spreads out +Ah +because they've been so much more technology, you know, since it's started +Oh I know yes +I don't want +You want to know the latest +Yeah, and er, apparently there's a thing called in the afternoon it's called erm software for survivors +What are you doing? +I'm gonna get under +Sounds like a good scheme +your hands +Oh are you? +Oh I wondered what you doing +Ah here's Jo's birthday card +Pull any harder, you'll go flop if I let go +I what? +If I let go you'll go on the floor +Yeah +Oh dear, terrible. +here's hoping your birthday will be unfrogettable and the frog hopping about on it. +Who was that? +From Jo? +Yeah +Come on then +Yeah, oh that's very nice, a book token as well, three pounds +I like a book token cos I always feel a bit guilty buying books you know, cos I've got so many +I do, I think I've got somebody buying me another so I go and look into that oh I do what Mavis does now, she goes and looks in the book shop +And then goes to the library to get the book she wants +like that, you know she didn't +Oh +If it's a book token that's it isn't it really? +take them back. +Mavis stands in the book shop writing the name and the things down you see and then she goes to the library, she hasn't been out properly yet with her knee has she? +Who we talking about? +Mavis. +No, she said in her letter, that she hasn't, well it was just a little square of paper, what are you doing dear? +Oh running round the room with a tape measure +Clocks says +Clock says half past twelve nearly. +Mummy bed time +Oh no, surely not +It's all the way round here and under there +Twenty five past eleven, he should be asleep now. +Huh, Michael gave Gill erm a sun bed +Oh where's sleep +A what? +a sun bed for her birthday, to encourage her to rest +Oh +cos she won't stop, she won't put her feet up, you know she's pregnant +That's when we go to sleep +Ah? +You know she's pregnant? +Oh yeah I know that +She still rushes about like I don't know what +That's when we go to sleep +So er , he's given her a sun bed +Is the hand on the two? +I think that's rather clever +A two? +You look, a little hand on the two and a big hand on the seven +two +Has er Andrew recovered from his tiredness then? +Me? +Or is he still tired? +Oh we were fine last night, we just sat plonked in front of Inspector Morse all night, you know, every time the er +it was nice video is +but we just got the +the, erm you know like when the telephone goes and you think oh rats I'm gonna miss the programme +You can stop it +you can, wonderful, so every time the telephone went, which was quite a few times, we stop it and then we, you know, we fancied supper in the middle and oh it was nice +I missed you +I think I have to get one. +Well play the game with me, well it was very pleasant I must say +Well Laura's got one, the more that you,the more you look at +It's a luxury though, I mean you know, you don't need it, the fact that we got one for Christmas it was very nice, but +Well I was only thinking that there's not much on the television so +No, and so, but you can choose what you want to use, to watch the video I mean I find it particularly good with children, we'd +I don't, I don't think not really +hardly ever watch the children's programmes official +We you know we watch bit's and pieces if we +Right then, Christopher likes this, that Wild one +Yeah, the Really Wild Show yeah She can't manage normal size +What does she have big ones? +No loads of little ones +Three +when she goes out for a meal she's got a problem, now if that was me I'd be having loads of big ones +Oh dear, quarter past. +Ten, you've got the big hand on three and little hand on ten +No we didn't that's ten, that's eleven, six, ten and then ten and then twelve and they +Do you think he's worn out our little friend? +No. +This little friend? +No, he kept waking up constantly, you, didn't you? +You kept shouting for mummy or daddy or somebody +What you keep waking up for? +Yeah +You're a silly +You go to bed to sleep +I waked up +He seemed to be awake for a long time, I think, you know like you wake up and you don't know what to do with yourself, I think it was like that, so every quarter of an hour or so he kept me, shouting for a drink he didn't know quite what to do with himself +Yeah. +Your mother used to sleep like a log +and she still +that +Oh that's a very nice letter, I was just thinking that maybe erm Jill hasn't got her birthday card cos she's the type of person who would write and say thank you, you know to me +She has got your address? +She has got it and it was a lengthy letter so, but I thought it would be included in my birthday present +Oh no +but she's not, she's done it separate, in fact I think that second class stamp +Has she got gone going to school? +Oh yeah +Is she not +She's going to carry on till +Touch that +first of +touch that +May +Touch that +Cos +Oh I like that +they always told you what date you got +She's got six weeks, well you can go on it when you like really, well, you +no well, what they do is they tell you the earliest you can leave and then you can leave after that if you prefer +give you a date and that was it. +Right +Still got it +I was lucky, cos I had the summer holidays +Right +included in mine, so it meant that they paid me for the summer holidays cos I didn't officially really +No +I hadn't officially stopped work till the first of September. +Catch, catch +I got paid for August which was quite clever really cos my date would of been sort of half way through to book my holiday +What am I supposed to do with this? +Hold it tight mummy I can tell you that if I let go you'll let on the floor. +What's this crayon doing down here? +Oh he's been +Crayon +crayoning +Oh he's been crayoning OK. +he's been doing a blue track sort of something +Yeah, yeah he's doing blue +, see I've got it. +That's because I didn't have time to sit and colour with him so he decided he'd do it all blue himself didn't you? +He hasn't done any green trees either +I one box. +Yeah you can go and bring something else done. +I only brought that one down because we haven't seen it for a long time, just choose one +I'm allowed to +thing that you want to play with don't just bring down any old thing +Don't bring down the box just bring something, one thing. +A game perhaps, that'd be nice. +Have we got time for a game? +It's twelve o'clock nearly +Mm +So we're not having Matthew any more +Well we might do +Mm, when grandma's got better +Exactly +but I'm not erm, putting myself out, it's like like April the fifteenth and everything +if you bring them over to my house +Does it say I've got to do anything about it or does it say I'm on it anyway +Do you have to write in to say that you accept it? +No, I don't think so, if you are unable to attend on this date please contact Janet at ITS Worcester, well I am able to so that's it then, enclosed a map, look forward to seeing you, jolly good should be exciting, I'll never find me way round Kidderminster +You did say you wanted I say you did say you wanted to go didn't you? +Oh yeah, oh I said I was very keen Zian Hill, School +Does Christopher, haven't they got any, does Christopher do any er,com computers +I with a game +Oh yeah, he's done loads of it +He's not really not really mentioned it +Mm, I think they have a system whereby they have it in the classroom for a week +And then somebody else has it +and then somebody else has it, so it's sort of once a month or something it turns up and they have sort of an extensive thing on it, I think that's the way it works. +Oh that's nice you've brought the tractor down +Mum +can't make out where this school is +mum +down Birmingham Road, there we are, +mum +I can see it +see +Have you got his name down on a creche then or not? +Who Tim? +Mm I bet the teacher will be +I wanna play snakes and ladders +I don't know, I hope so +I wanna play snakes and ladders +Snakes and ladders, you haven't tidied up that yet. +Better tidy up that game before we play snakes and ladders +Where's snakes and ladders I know +I don't know, you should know, not me +I do, in this cupboard +Is it? +It might be on the top +Where? +on the shelves +Oh +Regional accent there, regional accent +Why? +Mm and I was told at one stage that they used to revert back to Yorkshire +You're not now, it was true when Tim was mm +he's asked me to say things,I no you've not said it like you do +That was that one +Is it? +Thirty odd years in Manchester is definitely er +I expect it would wouldn't it? +Pardon? +I don't +My dear, oh I'm sorry +all the time +yeah well grandma wasn't listening properly, there you are +Oh, I feel quite pleased having cleaned everywhere and popped I feel like I can embroider the rest of the day now +Oh if my +Till some sort of disaster happens I think +in the fridge +It's always such a hassle you're trying to do something and you're just gonna have +Your don't then +got to provide activity +I used to get that you +Oh +well you do. +It's a play or to deliver home? +Yeah, no it's a play get the jobs done and then we used to deliver them back again up the street and one of us used to go in, I used to divert to Derby +We don't have any erm Chris has never bothered us bring people back from school, I don't think he knows them that well, well I mean he does know them, but they're not really his type, you know, +He you can imagine that +What? +In man not seeing them at. +No, I mean he's quite happy being there with them +Mm +and I've heard him say oh can I go and play with such a boy, he said he likes going to Kirsty, Kirsty and Hannah and Kirsty and Graham he's quite fond of them too and Adam +But he's a little loner ain't he? +and all those really +Mm +are sort of his type of player +mm +see what I mean? +He gets fed up if people don't play properly +Likes to set things out and make them go you know +Mm +rather than throw it about +mm +quite a certain little somebody we all know he's toys do it, no I put it there. +They played ever so well this morning didn't you? +What were you playing this morning when you got up, you and Christopher? +Didn't you have a game? +Snakes and ladders +Was it snakes and ladders this morning? +Oh no it was a tractor thing wasn't it, or did you play snakes and ladders as well? +Snakes and ladders +I've noticed he takes things from Christopher now +Mm +and we didn't go and sleep +He fell off to sleep +cos we did go up ladders +Did you, didn't you go on any snakes? +No +Huh, good ain't it? +Yes, there's definitely there some proving, mind you, you'll have to pick the right time of day, do you know what I mean? +I know what you mean +No. +I'm doing quite well really, I'm quite good. +Do you have to or meal or +What +Pardon +Look +Ooh you're making a mess of it. +Mm +Ok, I'll just have that one. +What you having now? +I will have that please +What's he having now? +Well I don't know, cos he's suddenly decided he likes yoghurt I think. +He used to love yoghurt +Yeah I know, he really has +and then he went off it, +Oh he's a fusspot +I don't know +Mum apple +You want a yoghurt with apple, your gonna start with a yoghurt are you? +Are you having yoghurt? +There you go, there's the yoghurt, I'll get you a spoon +can he have this spoon? +I'll be pleased if you like yoghurt again Tim, pardon? +Does he not liking yoghurt? +Mm. +I was very when he said he didn't like it for sure, +Well he's like that different taste, never sort of with Christopher stands for what he likes and what he doesn't like, shall we mix it round a bit more to mix in? +No, +Yeah +no +no +do that +Watch what you're doing, I don't want it on me +Do you like it? +Oh good, perhaps he had a funny flavour or something that's put him off +Don't know do you? +I know when I was at you just had one thing with a funny flavour and that'll put you off that thing +Yeah, yeah, mm +Well . +I think that's got slightly more ooh we got the er, the what's it group tonight haven't we? +Wonder if we've got any milk to give Morgan, oh no we haven't aha, when I take you home we'll have to get some more milk, otherwise we'll be stranded tomorrow +What coffee? +that +This is coffee, yeah +Come on, would you like another coffee cake? +I don't really want ano , sickly, take them home and give them to Paul +We want that +You want that other one nan +No, it seems to bit filling +Were they filling? +Oh +I think that one you apple +I'll have a yoghurt first +Same as mine +Same as yours, yeah, I've given up buying funny flavours now I just buy strawberries cos nobody ever liked them +Mm, I don't blame you, not many of the cos some of them are, are a wretched likeness. +Well I like, usually I like three out of the four and then nobody seems to like the fourth +Nobody, so you're left with it +so I have to +Christopher likes +Christopher likes black cherry doesn't he? +That's his favourite +And he likes all long +Mm, mm +and I don't +No, you just like strawberry do you? +You're like your mummy, I only like the red ones really, strawberry and raspberry +I don't like any of them really +I don't mind black cherry +I mean if I was supposed to eat them, then that will be it love +You, you like all of them +No +Well she eats them +I'm not fond of things like apricot and nectarine +No I, oh I wouldn't touch them +Huh +I don't +fruits of the forest I treat with great suspicion +What do, when I do +I'm not fond of pineapple ones either +You like pineapple +I like pineapple and we like +and then +yoghurt, but put the two together yuck +horrible, mm +I think it's things with big chunky bits in I don't fancy which is silly really cos that's the fruit in it, but still +Mm, yeah, that's true +Weren't things when you were a little girl, it didn't have bits like that, a lot of things come in that we didn't use to have +Mm, oh, sort of international things at the +I'm on the bottom +I notice now , lately it, er you know the last few years some of the things you used to get as a treat abroad and now here +mm +mm +Mind you they don't taste the same as +Don't have to +the family size +yeah, those erm potato waffles, I tried them once, nothing that I did, +Mm +I'm making a steam train +What's a name wasn't there on Saturday +June +June +I took her class on Friday afternoon +Is that why she's away? +Mum +She's been away all week +mind the pips, the pips +every time I got to them they had about twenty odd teachers there at the +No, but +the last teacher will be +Oh +they wanted me for the whole day of Friday but I said I'm sorry I can only do you half day if you're interested, they were, they were desperate. +Weren't +No they wouldn't be when I'm des when they're desperate, everybody rings me when I'm +well I don't want too much, see what I mean +Mm +having told them to stay at home with Tim, I don't want to be +it's not fair to him, I mean when he's old enough to understand +Well it's quite fun just going off for the odd day cos then he goes off to see Ian, he enjoys that but it was two afternoons last week cos I did Thursday afternoon and Friday afternoon +It's not bad really normally +I've a , well she's dumped hers on me +I mean she's got two children to dump on me so, I don't feel bad about that in, that we know, we decided that's what we, we didn't mind doing and there no trouble, if fact they're less trouble cos they're together than they are +You going to go teaching? +no, we're just talking about when I did last week remember when I went teaching last week and you went to Ian's house didn't you? +Went in two afternoons +Has Martin got chickenpox then? +Yeah anyhow I think she's hoping to come to tomorrow cos erm, idea in the air that on Maundy Thursday instead of having an ordinary mums and toddlers we'll have a in church for half an hour and then a run around cups of coffee with the big toys in the hall,a good idea +Mm +That'll be a nice idea, it's a bit tricky, you remember the Chris what we did at Christmas, that went really well, and we thought perhaps something similar book for Easter, yeah, don't know what we'll do but cos people like John and , so he's not teaching full time, in fact some of the schools have holiday aren't they? +Mm that's why I thought you wasn't doing anything on that day, +Well she wasn't going to and then the elections got in the way. +Got to, are we having that thing? +Well we still don't know about that, and it said in the paper that they're having election in the church hall, nobody in the church knows about it. +Mm, can't get it if they don't +So if they don't act, they've had it, but, if they wrote and asked quick then +It's got to be someone with a +with a caretaker hasn't it be elect them, there isn't one is there? +Why a caretaker? +To open it up and see to it +Why can't they? +don't usually. +Oh, they will have to if they want to won't they? +Pay the caretaker +Well in that case I expect, you know, some of us could become a caretaker if they're having to pay us +you'll be up there for seven in the morning +That's alright, open it up and then what do you do keep puffing along and sweeping it up whether it's put +cigarette ends on the floor +They could do. +there not to smoke in the place +but I bet they will +Our Man , our Manchester buses are not smoking +Are they? +They've down now +Very good, I don't see why we couldn't be really, it's so horrible for everybody else. +and Birmingham station +We're desperate for those at work +Birmingham station is non smoking +Mm, I've noticed that one +They give them all +Well that's sensible for +It is, they've give it out on the trains as you're coming in +Oh +please remember Birmingham is treated as a no smoking area, if you are smoking put your lights out +Mm, mm,of the King's Cross Society you could have a King's Cross +Well that is it +in Birmingham's Station couldn't you? +I, well that's why they put all those election round the +Mm +Is that what all this refurbishment's been about? +Mm, mm, cos of King's Cross, had to come at all it's awful and one time you just went straight on the escalator and now you've got to go +This is +With grandma? +telly +Something else on the telly with grandma, what will it be grandma? +I don't know +Twenty past one what do you normally watch, Charlie Chalk no? +Well last, last week we were watching er, I don't know what we watched +Probably watched the video didn't you? +Video I think we had on +I know something at twenty past one on B B C two but I wouldn't like to say what +I don't know what it is now, erm +he probably don't need to watch the telly for the rest of the time +we didn't, we, we went in there and played a game last week before we, we played a game +cos we done not a lot this morning like I just sort of be zombies, I'm sure we could do play with +I've had enough. +You've had enough now, let me have a look +Have you eaten it all up? +Oh he hasn't eaten it all mummy +Just half of it, still none the less is it +can I have a apple please? +Well why don't you finish this first?, +I don't +No +think you should, I don't think that we should have an apple if we're not finished our yoghurt, do you? +I had enough +Well if you've had enough that's it then we'll lose it and we don't do anything else cos we can't keep doing that leaving half a bits and that, this and that +I only eat half, I only eat half +Well you , you've been doing a lot just recently, the last few days +Is he only having half? +Mm +Yeah having bits of things and then saying I've had enough and then having something else you know? +Oh why, anybody can do that can't they? +I know , I'm not into that really I think if we sort of thing, we eat it, end of story and if we don't want it fine, but you don't have +That's right, if you don't want it don't have it +anything else as well +I want a half +You can get some little apples, but we're not, nanny couldn't get some. +Only half +Only half +as it goes I'm happy to go to Tesco's on Friday +Only half +Right, I'll meet you there. +Only half +Only half what love? +apple +No, I'm not breaking into an apple if you haven't finished your yoghurt +A tiny bit +No +A little weeny bit +no, cos you're getting silly with this +only skin +and we don't get silly with our food in this family. +So you can either, either have the rest of your yoghurt or nothing. +Only +Well finish your yoghurt if you want your apple as well then it will be full won't it? +It's too much +I think he's got the +I think he's fooled with two things, I think he's too full. +I think he's has loads and loads of things had a lot's and lot's to eat +He's had as much as grandma +you've had a lot and lot to eat +and your +You just forget it and you can have your apple tomorrow, I'll save it for you, right, there you are I'll put it back in there and you can have it tomorrow +that's Tim on it +For, for tomorrow +Apple +He's +Don't do that +It's coming off look mummy falling tears +Falling, I want +Oh dear , what, nanny dusted your crumbs on my nice clean floor that we scrubbed together +Did he clean it? +Mm, Tim and I did it together +Oh, ah, I'm falling +oh no, no, no +Mummy's not going to let you fall +I, I, I'm falling +Are you, where you going to? +Mm, plonk +I've fallen +He's getting quite good at it falling, fallen +Oh good +He managed to remember hid and hidden this morning, instead of hidded +me did it and Mrs not me did it, I did it, no not you, me +Yeah +It's really confusing, cos kids are they'll all of been in at play time today won't they? +They will +Erm, probably horrible and the play set +Have +Do they do any with the things? +What when we go and see it? +Mm +Yeah, the snag is the last couple of weeks, someone's has +What did this come down? +Snakes and ladders +Oh, oh put the other things away +snakes and ladders, doesn't go on too long +Ah? +that's our home produce snakes and ladders it doesn't go on too much, it only goes up to number thirty +Oh +Yeah, well go on too long don't they? +Well just looking at . +I made that for Christopher when he was +I remember you making it now, yes. +Can you do what? +Can you do that +Not right at this minute cos I can only have four at once, but after I've had this four I'll be choosing some more people, I'll be looking round for somebody who's +Can I again? +That one's Keith's and that one's now listen carefully cos before we start we need to talk about something, just put your things down on the table alright? +Now what we've got to do, we've got to decide which things are going to float, what does it mean to float James? +Erm +What does it mean to float +Er +what does it mean if you're going to float, what will happen? +It'll float on the top won't it? +If you're going to think what happens,goes down under, now then we've got to decide what we think's gonna happen before it happens. +Why don't why +Hold on a minute, Kevin what have you got there do you know? +Sponge +A sponge, it says sponge on there, what do you think might happen when you put your sponge in? +Er +Don't do it, just you tell me what you think might happen. +Drown +You'll think it'll drown +Float +you'll think it'll sink do you? +Float +You'll think it'll float do you? +I know what it +What do you think Theresa? +I think it will drown +You think it will float, what do you think? +It can't. +You think it can't float, you'll think it will sink. +What do you think Mark? +Sink +You think it will sink, OK then Kevin shall we have a try and see what happens? +It floats doesn't it? +I was right +Just leave that in there, that's it remember it's floating +What have you got? +Spoon +That's it, you've got something there, what's that one? +Spoon +Spoon it's a plastic spoon there, do you think that'll what do you think will happen to the plastic spoon James? +It'll float. +You think it will float, +Float +Float, what do you think it'll do Mark? +Sink. +You think it'll sink, what do you think, no just leave it there , what do you think Gavin? +Float +You think it'll float, what do you think it'll do +float +You think it'll go down, sink . +float, go on then James see who's right, oh who said it would float? +Me +You did, well that's now we've got +Now what do we have float, so where does the float there, OK, can you put your label next to it +that's it, there you go, that's lovely,what have you got there? +A brick +A brick, it's that it's wood, it's wood wood, would like to sort of feel it? +Yeah +It's wood +Let me +because, because I tried it before +You tried it before? +Yeah +You know do you? +yeah +Go on then Theresa +what's happening? +It's floating, it won't sink will it, so where do we put that one? +Where shall we put it? +Put them back safely to there +So we need float , yeah but it's +What's Gavin got here? +Sink +You think it'll sink?float, what do you think Kevin? +Erm +Feel it look, it looks quite +Erm, float. +Float, what do you think Robert? +Sink +Sink, ok, go for it Gavin oh +Float +what's happened to it? +It's sinking right to the bottom isn't it? +Can I have a look inside it, I reckon there look,. +See what's happened, hey, hey what's this? +A broach you've got +You've got what? +If you put it in really carefully so the water doesn't get in, you watch what happens, watch what happens? +Floats +It's floating then down in the water, then what happens? +See, now what we gonna do with that then? +Can you remember about the shell Mark, what happens when we put the shell in? +It did float +It did both didn't it? +Can you remember what made it sink to the bottom? +Rock +Rock yes, what made it float then? +Erm +What's that say Miss? +What's they say? +What's they say? +That one says float, do you want one that says float? +Not that, that one says sink? +What that say? +That says the same as that look, float. +Does that say sink? +See , float, float +Does that say sink? +That says sink, now then what you gonna do with all the sink ones then? +What does that there say though? +Going to go in the sink one, the plasticine, you do the plasticine in there, you've lost the plasticine label, there it is +No, look +Now then, Gavin +You're not listening to a word we're saying, you've done sponge, that's good, now what else float? +I don't want to. +What else float? +What does that say Miss? +Spoon +This one +you don't have to draw round it, just draw a picture of it with a nice broad stem and a round head, now Mark what was left? +Is that the shell to go in both, good idea there Mark +I didn't mind that +What is that Miss? +What in there? +What are you going to put in the floaty one? +This is your floaty side, there's a cork look, that floated didn't it, so you could put cork +What is it then? +then you need to write cork next to it, draw a picture of it and then write it. +This is the floaty things alright, even the shells that's good, what else floats Kevin? +Can you show me what else floats? +You put that one in the sink, sink, so let's hope that's the thing that sinks +I bet it don't. +Could that be a piece of plasticine? +Yes, there are +Right, what's in here now James? +That's er, erm spoon. +Right this is +this is the spoon and what's this one? +Erm the play doh +The play doh, the plasticine, what happened to the plasticine, did it float or did it sink? +Sink +It sinked didn't it, right to the bottom, so that needs to go in there, so make some plasticine in there. +No that don't have to be +Right, let's make plasticine +And that one's there erm +You have a look for something that floats +A sponge +You make out the labels on the side there +That's a sponge, that's a sponge that is +There you go Michael +That's a sponge +Put that right here +A sponge +That's a sponge OK, gonna have to write sponge there. +OK, what else have you got? +Now then Kevin, you've got some brilliant shells here, what have we got here in keeping that, is that the plasticine? +Yeah +Let me write plasticine so we'll remember. +sponge +And what's this one? +This is a shell, this is a shell +Yeah +and that's the over there and now what else floats Kevin? +What else floats? +What's on here, +Sponge +sponge floats, right draw the sponge in there and then we can write sponge. +How you doing Gavin? +Is that the right one? +What is it Julie? +Sponge +Wood. +Yeah, but some wood +Put the cork up there so we know, very good, well done, plastic spoon, good boy, right, what have we got here? +What's in the one, what's it? +Right, can you see if you can write plasticine there for me +Their turn, their +That's OK, look I'll help you with plasticine, you did very well there, have to pick the spoon, is this the sponge? +Yeah +Right, let's put sponge in there, now what else have we got, oh were leaving it there, never mind, what else can go in there? +What about the wood? +Let's put the wood in here +No +No float +float sponge +You've got the sponge lovely, now what else do you need? +Good girl think of something else that's to go in this side. +I need +Or, we needed labels actually don't we, what have we got in there? +What's in there? +What's this bit? +Play doh, there. +That's the spoon right, there you go look plastic spoon +Oh +Yeah here and then we shan't get mixed up. +You, you there. +Now what else floats? +You not +Wood +Wood, a piece of wood. +Yeah, +Which is the wood, that one there right, look let's see if you can write wood where the, the label for wood about there, let's see if you can write wood for me on there. +I can't +Oh you can, I've just got a, a of the water witch, have a go. +If it makes a mess James I'll help you but you try first. +What's that one? +Plasticine that one +A piece of wood. +Right let's super, now then what else needs to go in this floating one? +We've got a shell, and we've got a sponge, what else floated Kevin? +That one +That, what's that called? +Wood +Cork that is, cork, you feel it see what it's like. +Sponge. +This is the wood here, feel the wood, see it's different isn't it? +Does that say sponge? +This is cork and that, that says shell look, there's sponge, alright? +Sponge. +Draw the wood and see if you can write wood. +What is it? +In there. +What is it? +You're brilliant, I knew you could do it, it's wonderful, now then what else do we need to do in there? +We've got wood, sponge, spoon, cork we need now James look +Is that a float? +There's a cork +Is that float? +Cork, yes, cork floated every thing floated except the plasticine +What's that +and the shell. +Er, er that says shell that one, that says plasticine, what do you want it for then? +The plasticine +Martin, Mark would like the plasticine +I can't do that word, I can't do that thing. +Can we put these over here otherwise they're going to get rather +That's fine, you're doing fine lovely, now what else are you going to do with that? +Doing the cork, oh there it is, look there, what else do we need to do? +Nothing +You've done a sponge, you've done the spoon, you've done the shell, have you done the, oh you've done the shell in the middle, was that the right shell? +Then we'll know it's the shell under there, can you? +Have a go cos you're doing brilliantly, just write it there , +You do it +oh no you're so good at it these days, lovely, well done. +I've done me own +That's beautiful , let's have a look Gavin +good boy that's lovely, wood, cork, plasticine, plastic spoon, sponge, I think the cork actually needs to go in this one, so what happens when we put the cork in, can you remember? +It sink. +It didn't sink darling it floated on the top, so we really need that one in there but I tell you what we'll do, because you've tr , written it so nicely we'll put a little arrow and we'll put there, that means that goes in there, alright, that's smashing now all you need to do now is write your name on it +write your name at the bottom +finish. +I'm nearly finish. +Right, write your name at the bottom Debbie +What you, what you have to do this? +That's it, G A V +in there +I N like this, down and along the top like a bridge +No, you've got to do that first then with Mrs turn. +Oops, lovely, good boy, well done Gavin, do you like to show that +I want +to Mrs, that one goes in there, that's right +Can I have a go? +That one goes to Mrs +Can I have a go? +Can I have a go? +that's lovely James, that's fine, OK, you'd better put plastic spoons on or else you'll make, be in trouble because if you floated a metal spoon, now what would happen to that? +Bottom sinking to the bottom little one. +Hold on where you going with those there? +Busy at the moment +Er why you pushing, hey, do you mind we're busy here and you'll +I've lost Gemma +I don't know Mrs . +We'll call you if we need you Gemma you go off and do something else and then will talk about. +I, this one's gone a bit strange, look at that, how you doing now, Kevin? +How we doing Kevin? +Shell, plasticine,you know I told you need in there, you need a plastic spoon, that's for wood isn't it? +Let me write wood there +Mrs +cork there you need +Mrs +good boy, float, brick +Mrs +Mm, now you just need your Kevin at the bottom there, so we know it's you, can you write Kevin? +Has Kevin +Beautiful +Can I show Miss +Hold on let's check you've got everything, plastic spoon you've got, sponge you've got, what else do we need, wood, have you got the wood in? +Have a go with the wood, here's the wood, write Michelle the answer's no, but later on I'm sure there'll be time for you to do it too. +Michelle come away from that paper +you haven't finished the work over there, you've left one letter but you've got two more to do +Shell that says darling, shell, shell, that's just right for under there isn't it? +I'll find you the one that says for spoons, cos it doesn't say just spoons it says plastic spoons. +Now James can you remember what happened when we did this? +Yeah +Can you go and explain it to Mrs when she's finished talking to Christopher? +Yeah. +Explain what happened, but just wait until she's finished talking to Christopher cos she'll get fed up with you if you keep +Here's the here's the Mrs +Is that a word? +It was a word it got a bit wet didn't it? +Yeah it +It's alright we can manage +How we doing now? +Beautiful, have you got everything in there? +I think you,Kevin it's on the floor yours +Oh +have you finished?, you can go and do the next bit now +Mrs I can't do it +whatever the next bit is , why what's happened? +Will it not in, do it sort of down that way +Can I do one Mrs ? +one, two, you just hold on a minute can you, just wait till Mark's finished, cos it gets a bit confusing cos we get too many people knocking about. +Let's just +What is that called? +Well done Theresa ooh you've forgot to put the shell on Theresa, Theresa you've forgot the shell where you going to put the shell? +In there +And +it did both didn't it, it went sinked to the bottom and it floated, but can you write the shell in both? +Have +Did a shell in both? +What you doing now? +Thanks James you can potter away now, thank you actually there's a job you could do for me James, if you like to, find all the things and put them over here with the labels stuck to them, can you do that for me? +Find the things, and get the labels to go with them +Can I do one? +that says plasticine so put that next to the plasticine +No not yet Victoria when Mrs says put on your name +Then see if you can work out what those says and put them in the right places. +It doesn't erm, it doesn't erm +And you can help right, let's see who you've got, this is floating and sinking +Kevin's playing that. +float, sink and we've had Gavin, and we've had James and we've had Mark and who else was with us? +Mark, William, Andrew +Bonitta +Someone else we had, who was the other one? +Kevin, where's Kevin, +Can I have a go now? +there's Kevin, Victoria yes you can come, can you go and get these other people as well? +Can you go and get Leisha as well and Sarah OK, Leisha and Sarah OK James can you just go away a minute, away you go +Where's Kevin, leave your book on the table then, +A +Oh sorry have I okeydoke, Mary Ann can I borrow this when you've finished? +Right, can you sit there James, James I have asked you to go away please could you go? +I was +Hey +been putting this in. +OK, well that's what +Now then somebody's messed up this look it says sink here, never mind, can you see it here it says sink, it's a bit wet, this one says float, good boy Mark well done, put your name on the bottom and then we'll be happy. +I like this one. +I'm first . +You've got hold on this is something Victoria, Lisa, Sarah, there was somebody else +What is a +go and get me Gemma +Gemma +Gemma she's busy +Is she busy, you busy are you love? +Right we'll have you then Jemima +I wanna be there +that's Jemima, +I'm Sarah +Sarah +I am +er Victoria, put that down please Sarah for a moment because I want to explain to you what we've got to do, are you listening Victoria? +What we're gonna do is we're gonna try and see which things sink, what does that mean? +If it, it get, goes in you have to put it in that one +Hold on, listen, listen the question, what does it mean to sink? +To +Listen, listen, listen, listen Victoria are you ready, what does it mean to sink? +Are you listening, I've told you, I've told you at least +If you sink in a swimming pool, what will you do? +twice +You drowned +Yes, you'll go to the bottom don't you, alright, so if it goes to the bottom it's sinking OK? +What's floating? +What do you think those children are doing there? +What's floating? +Victoria what does it mean to float? +You do in a swimming pool because what happens to you, it makes you keep up the top doesn't it? +So if you place it +if you float you'll stay at the top, some people can float and they don't need arm bands, they stay at the top and if you sink they go to the bottom, now we've got to look at these things look and we've got to decide whether we think they're gonna float, stay on the top or whether they're going to sink and go to the bottom, now then what's this here? +What's that called, do you know? +No, it's called a cork, cork, you feel it Victoria and tell me what do you think, you think that's gonna sink or do you think it's gonna float? +Sink +You'll think it'll sink +Only +you think it's gonna sink or float love? +You think float, what do you think it's gonna do Lisa? +Er float +Float, why do you think it will float? +It's light +You think it's light so it can float. +You'll think it'll sink don't you, why do you think it'll sink? +Because it's only little +Because it's only little, OK pop it in and we'll see what happens, oh, what's it doing? +Oh no +It's floating poke it down and see if it'll reach, it'll go to the bottom, that's it it's on the bottom, oh no it jumped up, it's a definite floater that one. +Er +A, definitely float +It don't want to go down. +It doesn't want to go down, jumped it up again, leave her Victoria. +That was, that was a float +Now then Victoria what else floats? +I'm going first +Hold on, which one says float? +That says sink, sink, that says float, looking again huh, float +Me +Look at the sink +Can I put one in? +Now then, what have you got there? +What's it doing? +What's it made of Victoria? +I'm not Victoria +Oh, sorry. +She's not Victoria +I'm sorry, Sarah. +Shall we have a little introduction and then we'll set off shall we? +Everybody ready? +If you want to be happy and have a happy face and spread a little joy around and then there is just one way, make a face, make a face, make it as happy as you can and make a face but spread a little joy around and then there is just one way +Scary this time +Make a face, make a face, make it as scary as you can and make a face, if you want to be happy and have a happy face and spread a little joy around and then there is just one way, make a face, +Silly +make a face make it as silly as you can and make a face +That was reasonably good +Consider +with a few interruptions in the middle with people coming in, we've still got interruptions now with people talking, Ross stand by me +Shall we do that one again, with them all standing up and taking part? +If you stand up +Well they're sitting down again cos they were so hopeless Mrs , no that was a sit down, listen, that's a and it goes down, down down +Sit then please. +Right on your bottom +When you feel that next time you can stand up without the chattering +Oh sshh are you ready? +Oh no, that was my bit, that was my introduction, you get ready with your first word, what's your first word go +Er, make your +Make, no it isn't, if is your first word. +Make a face. +No, if Gavin, +If you want to be happy and have a happy face then spread a little joy around and then there is just one way, make a face, make a face, make it as happy as you can and make a face, if you want to be happy and have a happy face and spread a little joy around then there is just one way. +make a face, make a face, make it as scary as you can and make a face, if you want to be happy and have a happy face and spread a little joy around and then there is just one way +No, I'm sorry three times I've said it, it is not make a face at the end of the chorus, it's there it, and there is just one way, the chorus says if you want to be happy and have a happy face and spread a little joy around then there is just one way, then you make the face +Are we doing the silly one now? +No, I think we'll just do the scary +OK, right, so what this one now we've got to do? +Just sing the choruses again +Right +See if we can get the chorus right +If you want to be happy and have a happy face and spread a little joy around then there is just one way. +Right +I've got that +No need to chatter +I've got +When the introduction is being played you don't talk, now the quicker we get through these and practice these then we can have the other songs to sing, now I want please. +Right we'll begin by there are hundred of stars that shine +The introduction There are hundred of stars that shine there are hundred of fish in the sea, there are hundreds of people the whole world over, there's only one mother for me, only one mother for me, I love her and she loves me, there are and shells on the shore, there are and shells on the beach there are the whole world over but there's only one mother for me . +She caught me being rude today +She caught me being rude today +but I know +but I know +she'll tell stories to make me laugh +she'll tell stories to make me laugh +she makes me laugh +she makes me laugh +she makes me laugh +she makes me laugh +she'll tell stories to make me laugh +she'll tell stories to make me laugh +and to make me feel this bad +and to make me feel this bad +I love my mum +I love my mum +she's the best mum in the world +she's the best mum in the world +Right shall we try again with that bit there? +The introduction +When I'm not happy every day, about the things I said today, she caught me being rude today, but I know, she'll tell stories to make me laugh, she makes me laugh, makes me laugh, she'll tell stories to make me laugh and to make me feel this bad, I love my mum, she's the best mum in the world +My mum remembers long ago when she makes snow men, together +My mum remem +go on then, my mum remembers long ago when she makes snow men in the snow and pulled a face at Mrs Jones +long ago when she makes snow men in the snow and pulled a face at Mrs Jones +and then the rest is but I know she'll tell stories to make me laugh, the rest is the same as you've just done, OK? +Door, knock +My mum +My mum remembers long ago +My mum remembers long ago, when she makes snow men in the snow, and pulled a face at Mrs Jones, but I'll know she'll tell stories to make me laugh, make me laugh, make me laugh, she'll tell stories to make me laugh and to make me feel this bad, I love my mum, she's the best mum in the world +I learnt one +When's the +You know when +Oh that's not so bad then +the erm +Joy have the joy have the joy have the we are happy now again +And now the second verse is who, she's as generous as Robin Hood and all his merry men, she's as kind as Florence Nightingale and then as kind again, right super mum she has x- ray vision, she can +see through +see through me with a voice of rival, rival calm when she called me in for tea, have a go +She's as generous as Robin Hood and all his merry men, she's as kind as Florence Nightingale and then as kind again, right super mum she has x-ray vision, she can see through me, with a voice or rival calm when she called me in for tea, +Right, can we just have some general +Yes, let's have a little +Can we have Baa Baa Black Sheep? +Oh, we can have +Don't do Baa Baa Black Sheep right at this minute,have bananas in +Yeah that'll do. +Bananas in pyjamas are coming down the stairs, bananas in pyjamas are coming down in pairs, bananas in pyjamas are chasing teddy bears, half of you will be alright to catch them on their way . +We need some bananas in pyjamas to come out here +Oh, now lots of people have got their hands up +Tell you what we'll sing it again and then you pick some bananas that look like bananas in pyjamas that are singing really well. +Banana's +Hold it, two of those, two of those coming down the stairs wait for it no, any minute now +Bananas in pyjamas are coming down the stairs, bananas in pyjamas are coming down in pairs, bananas in pyjamas are chasing teddy bears, half of you will be alright to catch them on their way . +Well I'm going to choose er the little ones who are going to bring to me on Friday why why were the bananas in their pyjamas? +Oh go on tell us why +Come on Kevin +why were the bananas in pyjamas Kevin? +Why put, why were the bananas in pyjamas? +What are they? +Their skin I think. +Oh their skin +I never thought of that, I just think that they were bananas jumping about in stripy pyjamas. +I love +What about +I love here, I love these ones, I do love +I'm being +If you sit down you might get chosen but if chosen but if you're shuffling around, that's it. +You might not get chosen this time, you might get chosen another time. +Come on Katie, there's two, two yellow bananas. +Alex come on how many is in a pair? +How many is in a pair? +Two +Two, right then, one pair of bananas, there, your,alright. +Now here's some teddy bears for them to chase +Some teddy bears to sleep, er +Come on Yvonne come and be a teddy bear, oh yes just right for teddy bear +And me +and you're gonna be a teddy bear? +Come on then, up in front, Yvonne you've got to get up in front +they're gonna chase you OK? +alright. +OK bananas, you any good at going down the stairs, can you lift your knees up high with it and you're gonna go down stairs, dum, dum, dum, dum, dum, dum, dum, dum, dum, dum, dum, dum, you try that with me, ready, go, lift a knee ready go, dum, dum brilliant dum, dum, dum, dum, dum, dum, dum, dum , +And Charlotte can she do it? +dum, dum, dum, dum, bit worried isn't she? +She is +Just have a little go dear it doesn't matter if it don't turn out right +You'll get there +and when it gets to the chasing teddy bears you've got to run as fast as you can, so you'd better move out of the way +Oh +run as fast as you can, bananas +Calm down +we'll have to let them catch you right at the right, where the music tells you too,dum, oh +Bananas ready +are the singers ready? +Yeah +We shall need some more singers to do,are you ready to sing cos we might need you for something else up there, you'll never know. +You're very good +Bananas in pyjamas are coming down the stairs, bananas in pyjamas are coming down in pairs, bananas in pyjamas +watch out teddy +are chasing teddy bears +run +half of you will be alright to catch them on their way +have you got any? +You've got to catch them +Oh catch them on their way you were a bit slow there weren't you, ah? +you didn't catch your teddy bear did you? +Run quick and catch them +Come on then give us your +do you want another go? +I'll have a go, I'll have, +You'll have another go? +Have a go at that one +yes please +alright then let's . +Would you like to make a +Five, four, +I'll tell you what we'll sing the five verse and then you can pick five, five singers then +Five little speckled frogs had not a speck of luck each little look delicious yum, yum, yum, what have they +OK, have you got five, we've got one so far +We've got two +two , are you any good at being frog? +three,four +can you squat down like this? +Like this, rimmit, rimmit, rimmit, go on have a go at doing with me, rimmit, rimmit, come on, rimmit, rimmit, oh my god and then you've got to leap into the pool, are you ready to leap in the pool like this, you've got to rimmit , can you do that? +Oh well done Valerie you'll be brilliant, are you ready? +We'll all practice, are you ready? +One, two, three rimmit, oh brilliant, oh you come on you can do as well, one, two, three rimmit, oh yeah, +When you do it jumping in the hall you'll have to go, we'll have you first number one, two, three, four, five +erm, no young man,are you ready +Oh what a beautiful well done +I hurt my leg. +Here goes the introduction, are you ready to sing? +Can you hat this time frog +Five little speckled frogs, had not a speck of luck each little look delicious, yum, yum, yum, they won't be made a fool when it was , how now they now there are four green speckled frog, frog, frog, four little speckled frogs, had not a speck of luck each little look delicious, yum, yum, yum, they won't be made a fool when it was , how now they now there are three green speckled frog, frog, frog, three little speckled frogs had not a speck of luck each little look delicious, yum, yum, yum, they won't be made a fool when it was how now they now there are two green speckled frog, frog, frog, two little speckled frogs had not a speck of luck each little look delicious, yum, yum, yum, they won't be made a fool when it was how now now there's just one green speckled frog, frog, frog, sshh, one little speckled frog had all his speckles off he did look delicious yum, yum, yum, he won't be made a fool when it was how now they +Oh very good, yes, I'll be clapping +I did it first +And I did it +I clapped first +Right, here's the bear song +What's her name? +The bear went over the mountain the bear went over the mountain, the bear went over the mountain +to see what he could see, and all that he could see and all that he could see was the other side of the mountain, the other side of the mountain +and all that he could see was the other side of the mountain the other side of the mountain +Miss I know this one +Well there we go, you'll be able to sing beautifully won't you? +It goes like this +The bear went over the mountain the bear went over the mountain, the bear went over the mountain, to see what he could see, and all that he could see, and all that he could see was the other side of the mountain, the other side of the mountain the other side of the mountain was all that he could see +If you watch we can do some actions to this, you watch what I do then you'll be able to do it in a minute, are you ready I am going to be a bear, you help me sing +The bear went over the mountain, the bear went over the mountain, the bear went over the mountain, to see what he could see and all that he could see, and all that he could see was the other side of the mountain, the other side of the mountain the other side of the mountain, was all that he could see +So I had to be a bear till I got to the top of the mountain and then you have to look round to see, I wonder whether, who were those girls who were messing around over there can't stand that, mm, do something with them +oh dear, Mrs +Victoria +Oh dear, Mrs could you stand up you're gonna be bears Mrs OK, and you're gonna climb over the mountain, well not all of them, are you ready +Victoria you turn round and join in +doesn't matter where the mountain is ,middle weren't you +that's right, you get to the top you have to +are you ready? +Off you go be a bear, you go to the spaces, you ready, pretend you've got a mountain to climb, off we go. +The bear went over the mountain, the bear went over the mountain, oh grizzly, the bear went over the mountain, stop, to see what he could see and all that he could see, and all that he could see was the other side of the mountain, the other side of the mountain the other side of the mountain, was all that he could see +Very good I wonder if we could all do it as well as that? +Let's have a go +We'll try +Everybody stand up and be ready to be a bear +You do my laces up for me , do my laces up for me. +ready off we go +The bear went over the mountain, the bear went over the mountain, the bear went over the mountain, to see what he could see, and stop, and all that he could see, and all that he could see was the other side of the mountain, the other side of the mountain the other side of the mountain, was all that he could see +Do my laces, will you do my laces +Er I think that was the sign to sit down not the sign to sit down and chatter +OK Let's go +When the circus comes to town I love to see the clown, racing round the big top with his trousers falling down, +falling down his trousers and make me laugh and shout, I'll always feel so happy when the comes about ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, the funny circus clown +Are you any good at being a clown? +Me +Oh, well done Gemma, good girl, she . +Are you ready to be a clown? +Yeah +See if you can be as good as Mrs , she was doing well then for a moment, and Mrs makes a good clown, don't you dear? +Yeah, so off we go then, be a clown and sing at the same time. +When the circus comes to town I love to see the clown, racing round the big top with his trousers falling down, very, very,he makes me laugh and shout, I'll always feel so happy when the comes about ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, the funny circus clown +sshh, ooh if every body was as good as Victoria that would be wonderful, there's a heap really, I should just sit somewhere else Bowen, Bowen, Bowen, move somewhere else will you cos they're in a bit of a state there, alright,, if you're in Mrs class +Oh dear, no +sshh, put your head down +Put your head down, you're not listening +if you're in Mrs class then you can stand up, if you can tip toe without faffing, go to your classroom , just Mrs class , tip toe, tip toe, tip toe, tip toe, tip toe, tip toe, tip toe, tip toe, oh very good Gavin, well done, look at that, his feet are going right, watch Mrs quick, best all day. +Right Mrs children. +You ready Mrs children, we're going to do strides,stride, stride, oh very good faster, stride, stride, stride, stride, stride, stride, stride, ready Mrs children? +Thank you and Mrs children +ooh, what we gonna do with Mrs , can you skip? +Any good Mrs ? +And my children +Oh we don't want them do we? +No we don't want them +We'll, what you gonna do, jump +Good idea +put two feet together like that +jump +two feet together +jump +two feet together, are you ready?oh they've all jumped into a line. +Cos I don't know when, when did it happen? +I don't know +You can't remember +I don't know, cos he was alright before wasn't he? +before he went out to play +Well actually +Oh yeah +oh dear. +Think you'll do, you did want to get changed and for half an hour, cos we've got plenty of things to change into doesn't matter +Don't worry +It's because your to busy isn't it? +Yeah +Too busy working, my Christopher is so busy working or playing, haven't got time. +Oh +The noise yeah, well erm, yeah,too hard +Yeah, try those for and er, I mean there, but there, they'll go on to a similar any way, but just keeping up the enjoyment side and er +and apart from which you put +I mean he's way ahead, I mean he's having to borrow these books from er Littlewoods club aren't you? +But I mean they're, they're too easy in a way aren't they? +Well, they're just nice aren't they? +Yeah to enjoy +I mean he's, he's not got the reading tend to give it a sort of late +Yeah +and they've all got nice endings +yeah +as well +yeah +for youngsters reading +they can't cope with the usual +Who've we got on the floor, come on Kevin +Has he come in front of you? +No, +Kev, Kev +When your brother comes if you don't want that +Come on get up +that wall over there, I'm telling your mum. +I've not done anything have I? +Erm, that wall down there right, he keeps going on it +Michelle come on +You tell his mum then +He keeps like going it every time he +Why have you taken your hair out for now? +Took it out put it on the piano while I was busy playing . +Like when you go round National Trust Homes don't you, they're all a +You didn't get me any song books did you? +No +I was just thinking of two minutes ago like last week +that's all +all two minutes I thought, oh she's brought song books home, she's keen and enthusiastic with +that, because it would of been a lot of effort on part +I would, I, I just get them out . +You were damn rude darling +Yeah +being in an attitude you've forgot to +, no it's alright. +But it's more convenient for you to go in that church if anybody else +Oh it is +Probably a bit of a strain +Nice school? +Yeah, you can volunteer if you like +No +that school +also there's a +it won't be +Did it come off once didn't it? +What have you done? +Nothing +I, erm, Barry and +Do what Mary? +I'm not sure if they're going away this weekend, I'm not sure when they're going +Oh, well they're not going tomorrow +Oh, must be Friday then, I knew they were going away for the week, weekend +That's very nice too. +The first time +were saying this +It's tricky to have to get here +I know +the evil look, I shall move in a minute +Bite back +Funny old tramp , the leaves fall of him without those, they get stalkier and stalkier as time goes on +Yeah, yeah well I've got an ordinary +A +pot, it came from +I've got an ordinary +just keep peeling the bottom ones off it, just get +missing +My yucca's dying +Oh dear +That could well be the compost, poor leaves and things +Maybe +Well I think I've over watered it +Best to let it +I know I'm, I'm +I don't water mine very often I wait till the, one of the leaves start to go a bit yellow and then +Oh +I don't like them personally +Why not? +somebody else wanted one +I hated it +Ah, there you are. +similar to +chopped it up and then +and I've got twins +Oh that's nice +We've got one at work that looks like a tree +together? +it's about twelve feet, no, yeah about twelve feet tall. +I've put it on the stairs you see so it's got like double height to go to, it's nearly filled that, the thing is, the +at the bottom then about six foot gap and then +at the top +Yeah, +the +the branch goes to the top +You won't do it like that, you'll have to sort of +I suppose a handle of +Well now, that'll do us +instead of having, I mean you don't think at the time, but what she should of said was can I go away, come back for another interview another day, which means she, she's +for the hour because all she could think of was this +of course if she told me as soon as she'd done it +Yeah +I cou , I would of said well right tell them +yeah, yeah +Mm +ask them for another go, of course she left it till she had the results and then told me so I'm writing now to the +yeah +Mm. +so, cos she's stuck in working +Even if she's not +selling curtains for them and erm obviously she was +Is there anybody we know that's any good at tuitioning? +Oh, I come back from +of private lessons but I just really can't get a grip of it. +No, I meant just sort of somebody we know +What would we have to do? +The trouble is that +like if you were dyslexic I could help you. +I could help with maths +You've got to know the syllabus though and you've got to know what, I don't know what +Yeah you've got to know what you're doing +It's not a case of helping because in the letters I know what, I know what I'm doing, I'm just, I'm just gone to, +yeah +I've got everything right, actually what I did and I couldn't give you, I haven't got a clue, trigonometry, well I couldn't tell you how to do it, I should +That's why you need somebody you can ring up and say look, we did this yesterday what am I doing wrong today? +Yeah. +It goes out my head from one week to the next, I can't keep it, I know what I'm doing +Keep it up +at the time +some sort of +but again if, if somebody who knows about the G C S E actual course +you know the G C S E, did you know about +yeah I did that at school +Someone must teach it somewhere. +Erm, oh erm +Who? +Mike +I was gonna say Mike has had a degree in that +He +but he might know +What you'd have to do, you know, you tell him what you need to know, he'll be able to tell you how to do it. +Oh I don't even wanna do it, I just need +It's good book though isn't it? +books here, yeah, I just, read them, I don't know if I can do it I +but it, he needs to find out what he needs to teach you through the book so you know +What you need to do is to find +books are they +a memory thing, that will, you know, click your memory, you know how some people have an a +yeah +well +I know what you mean +I can just remember though you know over the +No I remember +I just need something that reminds you of what you've done rather than, er +Like my +I just can't remember that twenty +Well, you'll pass +No you don't pass or fail you get given marks out +Yeah, but I mean you only +that was +and I'd written down +just sit down and listen, then read the question wrong +write down the answer +anything from +What I could never do was +but I could never do them +being those things like well I can't do those tables +all the +and what not +at all, I've never since a child remember +Well you should of been learning those +I've tried, I can't for the life of me remember them +I can't remember +I've tried +Can you get up to five, fives? +twenty five +Yeah, but can you get up to that, like get all your other tables? +No, I can't remember +Right, you know the twos, threes and fours and fives tables? +Twos no, no +Oh dear +I can't do them, I've learnt them +sixes onwards I'll show you how dyslexic to do it with their hands +I've got my sheet of paper +You don't need +One two +Ooh somehow. +We learnt them by chart. +Yeah I did that at school we had to stay in most break times as a child cos I couldn't remember, and I, I know that my mum bought me a books so I used to sit for days and days, then my mum going over and then my nan going over and I couldn't remember if I wanted to +The number you have put them together in different places and as usual I got the numbers that fell of the +couldn't sort out, so those things, bit confusing so +complicated when you start it out, but if you can't remember for the life of you then, it's quite +Yeah I have to do it, you know, four, fours, five, fives erm providing I remember those middles then I can carry on, anything over +I know +you know, say seven, sevens I know are forty nine +Mm +so that eight sevens are fifty six and I carry on from there, but you can't do that +you've got to have something like +well I, I +I can't do it, yeah I can't do it +And are there things like that then, tables? +Or is it more complicated? +Yeah I was gonna say +No, they're much more complicated, if you get an equation what's X +Right +and you've gotta find, you've gotta know what happens +I'll take Wednesday +Yeah +and like they give you a secret number of what comes next +Yeah +I could never do those of, I never got one of those right. +I would hate to do that orally I could only do that with +I think +Yeah +You can write it down, by the time you've written it down and thought about it +Should of had the answer +yeah, I find that, that I've done it and I've written down the answer and then I can't think which number does it go to, and by the time I've got to number one they're on about six, so I might as well, I'm lost it completely, so I can't do that either and my project work, course work, goes towards certain percent of my marks and I can't think for the life of me why +cos I don't want +you get one percent on explaining how you do it +so that's that, I can't rely on my course work for my marks so that's +I can't do it, so that I've got to get full marks for the exam to pass, without the other two bits on it, I can't do that +Why is the project work so +You don't have to have English? +No, cos I'm old +Brilliant cos I +pass mark, I've done the work and I've +We've all stood teaching, I've got maths I haven't got English. +This is, is this O level? +A level English, Language and Literature I'm doing which isn't really +but I might not pass, I haven't got the time and difficult when I'm working I can't +if I start and it starts getting boring +motivation is +I can do an essay to prove I can +It's all too much for me +That can go next +Yeah +They're nice +these two, really nice, I like this one +exactly that's what I was thinking +you could come on our weekend if you're not going +if you're not going to +cos they're going all weekend +Did he tell you? +He said, he was hoping to go and work there, so +And what did he say, three months? +For a year and that's all I need +this is what he would liked to do +Too frightened to ask him now +No we don't about it +oh +because he told me +Oh I think we will, well it's +yeah after a year, yeah +Unless he can get a work permit +been before he said, yeah, and come back +They don't always come back, they don't always use the +the main thing being +I know if going for at least +luckily +Anyway, unfortunately he was gonna go in +I wasn't +October which is a pity really cos that was when our weekend +ooh quite keen +Enjoyed your +for a year? +quite keen, well it isn't as if I'm gonna stay for a year, he's sort of thinking sort of you know going out there to work and I +What does he do? +See it driving, actually see me driving +Yeah +car park, drove in very slowly +me driving this blooming car +somebody saw me +crash +got the keys out, pressed the alarm, hello , I'm quite impressed, cos my car's a scrap heap +And why is your car a scrap heap? +cos I haven't got any money to do it up, nineteen sixty +no +really, you see I was hoping that I was going anyway to +and that was gonna be it, I won't need it any more, but it turns out that I will so I'll, I've got a car +Oh I patched together +Right this is er +both +I have you know I've been going round and testing how many miles per galleon you can get out of it +Per galleon? +per galleon, yeah +Well that's the trouble really, it's +Good +get depressed about it, I've been feeling very depressed about it +Why? +You still very depressed about it? +Remind him Barry he's got something to ask Pat +homework afterwards +I don't know I +You might have a bit of a whirl +project +I can't do it, I'll try +Well ask him, he can only say +You're not +No I'm not . +Are you comfortable there? +It's surprising +Oh I've got a lovely +Lucky girl, what about your toes? +the one I had, Ernie my instructor at work was this thick from bottom to top +Well it would look such a +and they were black +obvious +this thick +this thick +and I didn't change them all day cos I haven't got any money to buy any more so I have to wear them +Why not, you should put one of hers on and say it was patterned +No, it was horrific, it really did look +I ask you and someone got up and like turned the +Oh do you want bits and pieces back? +Are we +how embarrassing, what will that be? +We've raised half that size +I don't think I've ever had that amount in it +cos really, we didn't really go into cost relations +No +did we really? +I think we ought to anyway, I think it, it's, ought to be priority. +Can you imagine them sending the whole lot? +Mind you, we've got some quite, quite music and things and +or just have a, you know, start us off because it begin with something, that is +you know +yeah +plays the +otherwise you're just complete cold +it comes to you too late, and also +Oh, shall we go home now? +we go home now? +Well I'd like to say stay a long time but actually I thought +can we go? +When can we go? +Come visiting +Nice to see you +I'll miss you otherwise cos I don't see much of you. +Right, what am I doing? +I'm not sure which +what am I doing? +Chris what am I doing on Sunday? +I don't know +Oh dear. +Do you know what I'm doing on Sunday? +I don't know what you're doing actually +I might be doing +He doesn't like being washed +Mine don't +Really? +Where's he gone? +Half way to school by now +Is that what he wants to do? +Is that what he wants to do? +No I don't know. +Oh he's never declared what. +Oh the second day he went to school he did +I go on me own now +Oh dear beautiful day isn't it, don't you think? +Well they do +Don't you, have you been doing your keep fit? +No, I haven't +Tut, tut, tut, tut +I went to it at Christmas +How long keep fitting can you get? +Well he had a night off, it's not very often he has a night off, so +Was it anything interesting? +Oh no, we went to see er this wonderful, the one they're all +Bits +raving about in the paper +Oh right, I don't know about +Well, the one that er +about people to think to them after they've been because it's so stressful. +And the women who are running out you know +It's the kind of film I've ever wanted like the plague, go on +oh +go on, +oh I don't know. +Have you +the wrong way round +I said the only +is the people trying to get out at the end, to see who can get out first +Oh dear +it was suppose to be violent and, too violent and, full of rape and segregation +Oh dear +It wasn't of course, if it was I missed it +Perhaps it's your age +No I'm not into films. +At all +Beautiful makes me all cheerful don't it +And for me +don't you think? +Er just the window, I've never be gotta be quick, do me housework on a Wednesday today +Oh +only this week, it's a bit baffling +That's a funny voice. +Yeah but at least it's keeping them occupied. +Oh +Oh +Oh +What's the matter now? +Oh +Hassle with my daughter at the minute +Oh dear +How old is she? +She's nearly eighteen +Oh, +I wish she would. +I've told her, I said, you know, go and live with your boyfriend +Oh +Does she see you that much? +Yeah every week. +Does he live near, live nearby then? +Yeah, he lives near Yorkwood but he's just about to move, erm up Riverside, you know? +Oh +Yes +Stop it. +You never know what +yesterday I says to her, cos she goes to Redditch to college +Yeah +I'll take me boots and a pair of shoes with heels, she didn't want to take them yesterday, I want to take them +she said well I want me boots back for Thursday night cos I'm going out in them +she's on a half day, I'll come with you yesterday +pick them up if you come out +so when it comes to this morning, you +I'm not taking two pairs +Oh dear +I says you're taking them whether you like it or not, I said you promised, you think, you know it was really difficult you know, I don't ask her to do much +Oh give this to Mrs cos I walked off with it yesterday +I pinched that yesterday by accident +Yes , I only found it this morning by accident, I thought oh god +Oh, poor thing , he's so sweet your son they go in +I think he's so sweet +What do you want? +He's, he's so cute +and quiet and, +Yes +I think he's lovely. +Right it's me and you know, where are we going on our travels, here we go +want a lift? +Oh +are we having fun then Don and Mary? +Mummy have that one, and that one over . +No this one here, else my hands will drop off. +Oh dear +I hope you'll enjoy your gardening +Is that what you're gonna do garden? +I don't do do sun beds +I'm very +I'd like to go and do mine, but we're going to do mums and toddlers, oh, cos I was gonna do it yesterday +And I was gonna do it yesterday +but it tipped with rain , oh well happy gardening, bye, oh no you don't oh dear what she doing to you eh? +Hello Timmy, how are you? +All that lovely blonde hair, can I have it? +And look at the way he's slept on it oh I'm not running Tim, I can't cope this morning, I know sometimes we do, but I need to walk to the gate like a lady +Don't +everywhere I go +oh you can have a run if you want to +No +No I hope it stays like this, is it gonna stay like this all day or is it only the morning? +thanks +cheer you up +I don't want to be stuck inside at mothers and toddlers all morning if it +No +come home and it rained, perhaps we could all +this afternoon if it was gonna rain +Yeah, it's usually the opposite way round +Yeah, I don't suppose everybody will be too pleased about that +Aaagh +Come on Tim +don't you want to walk on the edge? +Ooh don't fall off. +I know it's lovely isn't it, I +aren't the blossoms +it is, yeah +the blossom tree there +Like them when they're on a +bet it snows trees at the front of our +pink and are really lovely for a bit and then you suddenly get a wind +That's right, they're all then +Mind you they must go somewhere I don't know where, cos we never pick them up +I know that +no, you've got a point really +No I'm sure it's good for the ground +It's like all these people that go out really cleaning the leaves up +Oh I know, well we have to do some because if we didn't we'd be under thick feet +yeah +but we only just do it +yeah, but I can't see the point only we never do +we go +I don't see where they go to +up probably to these oaks here +Yeah +we're alright till the oaks drop into the garden +oh yeah +and then we've had it cos we're well literally up here really +well, yeah , well we haven't got that, we've only got the trees that are in the garden +yeah +which we've got a couple of big ones but we haven't got like extra ones outside the garden dropping leaves. +I mean we've got two others, two great big brown ones, they have pink flowers on and then they drop like er, what do they drop like +things +Where's the hole gone? +I think they've filled it in yeah and they did it quite smooth, pity they didn't do this one as well while they were I didn't quite understand it +Perhaps they get better as +yeah I didn't quite understand the point of that +did you? +Dig a hole and +right then +and fill it in +see you tomorrow +bye +bye, bye Timmy +Let's open the garage +No +yes, whoops I'll just go inside and get the keys Tim, it's still in the house +I think it wants a wash +I think you're right, it does, it's filthy this car. +wash it with a sponge +Mm. +mm, use it with +water with other water with the bucket +Yes, it's called +and wash it +we could manage to do that one day, if it's fine this afternoon we might do something like that this afternoon, but if it rains it won't be any use, I also want to do the garden this afternoon +What? +I don't think we should go swimming do you, because of your cold. +Mm. +I don't think we should have a swimming day. +Er, do it, go, go slowly now. +No, I wait for you to put it down oh dear, dear, dear, you alright now? +mm +I'm sorry mummy had to rush us so much this morning it's just when we're in a rush we have to get to school on time you see, it's a bit rotten when you're only three isn't it? +Oh +You know I follow up Baptism visits +Yeah +er for special services I invite everybody, and I've got about fifty on my books which I think I can afford to go around when I get there, can you do a couple, they live near you +mm, mm +Teddington and +mm, mm +if they're not in just slip it through the door you can't keep +I mean if you can't, if they're not in, but if +Don't bother +you want to keep going back, but I mean I won't +I'll just go once +It's just that I've just got too many at, it can only be done a week before +yeah +and I've got so many to do +Who are they? anybody I know? +Ones for twenty, anybody from mums and toddlers connection I don't know, shame it's +Hello you're quick. +Stop it, stop fooling when it goes +Go +stop, go +go +go +In fact +can rewind it, in fact it has to +be switched off and then rewound and then go in a +Oh see, service half way through oh that +Oh yeah +See +table today +Good +Nice sort of man who understood that people don't know anything about it +Yeah +We went out to lunch to er Tesco's we got to pick Christopher up from school and we went just for lunch time, that was quite nice +cos Andy was having a lunch anyway at work and er +You know, you know just outside the door it might be in there. +Lost, lost the hat +I'll do it +oh it'll turn up +I can't find it anywhere. +You can't find it anywhere, you think it's probably in that, that, oh look, +these have done well haven't they? +These things have done well at toddlers these +Alex just knows how to get, how to get round everyone, to get round his mother anyway +If his, his mum wasn't there he'd just hold on to her and that would be it wouldn't it? +But I mean he can't do that when she's there +He goes to a nursery somewhere though doesn't he? +I've watch a play with +she doesn't talk to him she talks about him to everybody else, either way she +amazing, bless his cotton socks +Very, very practical that's what I find of her, she'll say oh and I'm hoping to +oh that's really lovely +Why do you bother paying and we were just mucking about you know, like I know something +Remember what size the lady said your feet were? +She said size ten didn't she? +Which was a jump from eight and a half +Mum is Christopher ten feet? +No not ten +The size +size ten , you're like you're size thirteen +you're shoe was size twelve and a half but we have to buy thirteens for trainers +And then you go back to one or something +Mm +at one stage +It's +isn't it? +Mm is Larry coming here tonight or are you going there? +Here +Are we gonna +Is that alright? +Here? +I rang John see if he could go same time or I could go there +Well done +Finished +Do you want that bacon chop Tim cos I don't think you'll find it you won't eat it all? +I want a little bit more of +Ask daddy to +you start that then +Can I have a bit mum? +Chop that up and you'll get a bit more to go with it. +Can I have a little bit more of that crisp in it? +That +Do you like crisps do you? +But they haven't +I'm having crisps +I don't mind these little bits mum +Right +but mummy I don't really +What? +Did put it +That's it as well +Is that OK? +That little bit there +How do you like +Yeah, mister crusty's really nice in it? +don't you daddy? +I thought it was quite good, somebody +and bath, and bath the children and got their tea ready, what, pretty efficient really +as mothers go and I did the garden +the garden, was it a nice day? +It was yeah, Jamie's mummy said it was going to rain this afternoon didn't she? +I +it's daddy actually. +A big tummy +And, and +Yes +They let off a little despondent these mums and toddlers thinking oh the best bit of the day, and they forget, it wasn't. +And it was a very nice mums and toddlers, hardly anybody turned up too +Why was that? +I don't know, last week we were absolutely packed out and then this week +Are they all ill this week? +Well either ill or else they've gone you know cos it's a nice day out don't know. +All I know is +There are quite a few chickenpox cases. +Why +What did you do Tim at mothers and toddlers? +I played +Yeah, what did you play with? +Anything special? +We had a +Try it again Tim daddy didn't quite understand, say it again. +The prince and the +No, no, he's talking about a story +Oh +A story +story +looking in the windows +Looking in the windows? +Mm, mm +What? +and he be'd a fire engine +Aah +Is this er Christopher's book? +Yep +The one about mummy +It's mine +Yeah mummy, mummy the window cleaner went to rescue some people along came the fireman +Mums and toddlers thought it was wonderful, we only had half a dozen you see in there cos it was low numbers all round so we had low numbers in the +as well, had a little do with a little boy called Shane, he decided he wanted to come into the story with a, in his blue car, I explained that on the day of the choose he could either come in and have a story or he was to play with the blue car outside, well he had a fit, he's rattling the door, anyway, I didn't realize there was this childminder that he had with him not er his mum, cos she came and had her sort of say and things +we finished the story and we got onto the rhymes I presume and a little body sidled in through the win through the door and he sort of sat there looking pathetic you know, I said would you like to come and sit on my knee? +No he said, and I went over and I picked him up anyway, and sat him on, I sat him on my knee and I said we'll just do some rhymes and I could feel him sort of going mm, mm, mm, like they do all pathetic and whiny, anyway Phyllis arrived and afterwards it was, by then he had calmed down and he was fine and I said wanna read the story now cos he missed it of course when he decided he couldn't do without his car , so I said next week perhaps come without your car, I think I'd won him over by the end but, it was a bit hairy. +Mum +Especially as the childminder hadn't seen what had happened, so she didn't realize why he was carrying on like he was, made the whole thing a little bit tricky, can I give you this? +It hasn't +Rosemary came up and said she really enjoyed last night, so, that's something. +I'm not sure it was that brilliant but ha, ha, and it's to change that law +Yeah, be direct +Mum +to the point +did dad like the ginger bread man? +did he mum? +Yeah he did +You like the ginger bread man? +Tim ate an eye before, oh yeah all the people last night had them +But what I did before yes, one or two did +ginger bread men or what? +I want +just a tiny one that little boy and the girl +I want +No you, no, did they have a +Did you have a +when the girls had little bits at the bottom, little round bits I had +Can I have mine? +have them today, I had the head of the big one +Did you? +ginger bread man er +Can I have my +for my biscuit today and for myself I had a dinosaur, Miss gave me a whole dinosaur and I had the head arms, erm, the head of the big one +Yeah +where my biscuit when I come home +To you, eat lots of biscuits +And we had a biscuit +It sounds like a lot, but it wasn't really +Did you eat all the sandwiches, all the cake and all the banana? +I think Christopher's well again don't you? +He must be +Mum can I have one of those? +No +I felt really hot mum this morning +Did you? +cos my throat hurts +Your throat hurts as well what's all this throat hurting? +sore throat +I've got a sore throat too. +I had one +When we go to the dentist +I had, I had the video on when, when dad did +Probably not very erm +I had enough +Probably won't matter cos +stand clear. +Presumably it would, I mean, it's +Can I have the pudding please? +Yes, I'll go and get it, have you finished there Christopher? +You didn't do +I'm going to stir it out have I do stir it out +stirring it out? +Dad I'm meant to be doing that, is that the top one? +Get, +those yet, OK? +Careful Christopher +Here you are +Christopher just be careful +What's he done? +You can't do any +What? +You can't do that. +Mum +Hello Christopher +What's in there, there look at the bottom +Dad look, +look at the bottom you can't see +look dad the bottom +Oops they're smart aren't they? +I don't know the bottom +What? +You wouldn't be having ice cream +Every +I can't have a, I can't have one of those lollies +Yeah +Aren't you having a bun of mummy's now? +See we've run out of buns cos you had one yesterday and that makes one er, there was two there +Not got buns now chocolate pies +No, you've got to do +I'll just do +erm +but +you, you have, +when did I do that? +Christopher you come up here and you know talk to me +That's yours +Thank you +He's taking them over and I +Daddy +Daddy +Daddy +Daddy +Daddy +Yep +Is there another one? +one more +Daddy mum +dad +And he wants this one did he? +Can we have it Christopher? +Oh dear, careful. +again +Dad what's left over is my favourite dad, have all of this. +My staff couldn't cope with the day +Oh dear +Marg went home this morning. +Huh, she went home yesterday didn't she? +No, day before. +Cake left over +She's not coping is she really? +No +Is she just ill now or is she just +just being herself +but life generally is helping Well that's nice +What's going to be left over? +What do you mean what's going to be left over? +Mum +Left over, over there +it tastes better with ice cream, chocolate ice cream +the ice cream +, no dear +I thought not, especially the +do double exercise then. +Mm, I did double exercises in the garden today. +Double exercises what double exercise +I moved the bush, can you see it? +Where? +Remember your dad putting in a big huge something or other which we never did find out what it was, and it's an ugly little specimen +I could see there's a gap there now so +Oh no, no, you're thinking of something else, that was that other pathetic little shrub +Oh +that never did anything, that we inherited, and when we moved all that stuff that was on there, all that junk, erm, when we first moved, I thought it might flourish when it sorted it, but it's kind of spindly so, that's gone, no, no, another bush, over this side +Can't see it +same time as you planted the erm, erm, what do you call it with the butterflies all go on? +Buddleia, same time as you planted the Buddleia, you planted this other thing, we don't quite know what it is against the fence, and it kept sticking out when we played ball, do you remember? +It was too big for the border, I really wanted little flowers and prettiness down there really instead +Yeah +of a little bush +yeah +and I moved it +It's a record +Record, what is it? +and I moved it over to that corner there, where nothing else grows +I see. +see what it can do in that corner. +Oh dear +It probably will die a death, you could hardly ever +Mummy +Yeah +see what happens +Mummy, mummy +Yes Timothy +look is that digging up, +mm +to chop that down +right +down the other side +oh right the forsythia has actually flowered this year +Has it? +Remember it used to be three inches long and now a foot long, with a flapper +You, you haven't see any on this telly, you'll see the horse one. +I never +the horse one +Haven't seen Rosie and Jim, haven't watched any telly this weekend. +oh good +Haven't watched Rosie and Jim, Love Piglet +I wanted to watch +Story time +eggs, +There's one about +sorry +erm +something about delivering a letter wasn't it? +Oh yeah +That's Play Bus +That's Play Bus is it? +No, it isn't, it's watch isn't it? +Oh is it Play Bus? +Yeah, I don't know +I don't think it's Play Bus +What for? +There's a letter in Worcestershire as well +Mm +Mm +There's a local programme there +Dad, you might of seen er +It was done by the Play Bus man, that's what you're thinking +Er, egg one , you haven't seen the egg thing about. +Mm, no, well there's lots of things I haven't seen, I haven't had time this week +There daddy and that's the lot. +Right I'm not allowed to watch it any more +What Christopher, hasn't watched anything +I haven't watched anything today +Should think Tim's watched more than his fair share really today, cos erm, he's so ill this afternoon, whatever it was, but that Christopher was +Did he help you with the gardening? +No, he came out for about ten minutes then he said I'm going back in the house mummy, just then flopped on the chair +I found a button +Have you? +Look, there's the button +Don't you think you ought to eat the pie dish as well? +Ben was that stiff teeth +Stiff teeth +Ben was, but erm Greg and Matth +Mum it was a very strong teeth, then mum when I bit into chocolate mum the chocolate stayed on there when I eat +Mm +but he's have gone +mm +look mum, look at his back, look it hasn't got very much on has it? +No did you enjoy that dear? +Well it's actually bomped me, you can get it +I've no idea +Well Sputknit's on telly if you haven't watched any telly. +Christopher's got homework to do. +Well I've finished some of it, I +Mum, dad +Yes, yes +Yes, yes +dad +yes, yes, yes, yes, yes +you haven't eat every +Rosie and Jim or +you, you haven't seen Rosie and Jim or Sp or video +or think about +I haven't, no +or Play Bus +I haven't got time to see +Or +You haven't seen think about +And you haven't seen +and +the story time, now I don't +And I think about admiral was about erm +you don't +bones, bones was the last one I saw. +You haven't seen +the one which he takes over +good +and then there is another thing about on top of it think about giant eggs, eggs +no wait a minute +I, bet , see if I can balance that on my head +no wait a minute +Tim, keep going +what? +As of were all a +what do you want today? +What's a +A day we go in the mountain +A day we went up a mountain +What, what +I will changed that, and you'll have that +Awaiting in amazement +Is it? +You'll have to watch that +that's it +cos you haven't seen that +No I haven't +What about a log, we're as quiet as a log? +Quiet as a log, no, +You come wash up +You can't wash up, it's my turn to wash up isn't it? +I'll wash up dear while you watch the telly cos I've +I +No +Alright dear I don't mind +See you're not watching their new series, when, anyway, aren't the new +However, this +This one here, what you supposed to be doing? +Yes if you can just do that front page which is the easiest one and the second page. +What, I've already done the second page +Have you? +Oh well done then that's have a look, where is it? +In that case you've probably finished then. +Can I finished my book? +No you haven't, come on +What finish the whole book? +I won't finish the whole book +Not the whole book. +I did erm, Christopher's +cost thirty pounds and +eight ninety nine do you want to do this and then, have you done this yet? +No, look at page thirteen +Dad +Yes +you've got to find out what's the +Dad +Yes Tim +Where's +Where's number one +a different cover +there's the same cover +that's not the same cover +and you're supposed to put your name +where's number one? +on that don't you? +it's meant to be a book +The last I saw was +when he went to Stratford, and did he watch the puppets? +Yes when +We'll have to watch it together, is, is the horse one +That's right +the horse one +was +Oh +When you whacked the horse +yes +all comes on next +you keep shaking the +goes on +Yeah +and then it starts off, and then it goes on again without winding it back on. +Amazing +I thought that was you Tim +No +Dad +if we got the, the whole video of Rosie and Jim or Rosie and Jim didn't +Well we've got one Rosie and Jim video didn't we? +Ah +and really I didn't need to do that I ought to +But that was Christopher's wasn't it? +I don't know +Cos Christopher had his on his head, do you remember? +Well I've done thing here +Can I have my ring back? +I don't know where the ring is +Can I have my ring back and then Christopher can go and look for the ring that he had on his head, he had a wooden one on his head, do you remember? +Would you like to go and look for the ring dear? +And while you're upstairs, just have a look on the floor +highly disgusted +Who would have children? +What were you doing down? +Quite fond on them didn't we? +But not at dinner times . +But not when they're eating, here why did I bother giving you a bath? +Just wash, wash it off and dirty it +the bath +Mum, some more water +Have you found a cloth, Christopher did you find a cloth? +Aaagh +Stop +Ah, daddy what on earth did you let him do that for dear? +Cos you thought he could do it, you were wrong. +He can't. +I think when it comes to pouring Tim, until you're four +Or five +or five, or six, or seven somebody will do it +I've got some water +Timothy too much +Yeah, before Tim tipped it all over the mat and all over the +not the carpet, what do you call it? +Table cloth +You might as well have been a carpet +I'm going to probably start washing up, +Yeah. +will you pass the things through? +and he, and he does and, and he does over that's big and that's small +I'll take your er cassette player +No, and that's, dad, it's +So what else have I forgotten to put on then? +This list +I don't know +What +tomorrow we'll leave for +at four o'clock is that right? +Yeah +Have you got any money? +Money, for the dentist? +Well I've got no money, you'll have to pay the dentist +I can write a cheque +Alright +Erm +Have you got any cash? +Well I've got a bit, but +it will be nice, won't it really? +It will be nice. +to take care of Tim or to say to them that the +I don't know +how these things work erm, sorry +what mummy and daddy +yeah, that'll be nice, cos we don't really want it do we? +It's only +Do have this business chap staying all of Sunday or what do you think? +I don't know, I mean we can either take him up to +right +or if he wants to +cos it won't be a long evening service will it? +No +whoever, which one of us is there decides to, of course if he decides this after the service you can't stay there very long. +Right, so it doesn't matter +So, whoever takes me, you know +that's probably just as well, so it's on, a couple of hours onto the service really isn't it? +Say you'll be back by half nine ten +By then we'll know where to go +True, we hope +I think it's on the A ten, erm +Have you looked it up then? +I, no, +Mm, quite exciting isn't it, I mean, well are you excited by it dear, you seem like you're excited? +It is certainly different +and we can just poddle him along to everything we do, just, I mean it's, you know we can do things in the garden, we can do things round the house we don't have to lay out anything special do we? +Well I expect +just because we're special type of thing, it'll be OK cos he will be able to enjoy just being with us or not, as the case may be +family, yeah and the children I expect that'll be interesting for them, cos I quite imagine he would of meet many English children knocking around really, cos the situation is he went +Yeah +as many, and they're lots of fun, but, you know and no doubt aunty will get fascinated by +yeah +and they get +there's too much +Yeah +but, it was a pity he was able to speak on the telephone, so +Well +people keep telling me about them and I don't seem to write them down, I probably +so I +Oh yeah +When +Mm, sorted out for April the fifteenth this erm Information Technology Course +Can I keep that writing +Two days +Joe, that's handy +I can +The er +David and +socks, he'll be wearing today and the balls +in the garden +I think we'll put some of that away, do you? +No. +going to have Weetabix as well? +Yeah. +she'll never manage all that. +in that case you can't cope all all that. +So we'll put some of that in there. +There you are. +Sir. +Woops. +Can I have some more milk? +Can I have some +Where's your bib Tim? +I'm too tired +breakfast +Sit on bottom, please. +Don't +When I'm drinking +no. +my milk. +Pardon? +When I'm drinking +There isn't any in there yet. +We're waiting for you to sit down properly then we'll start giving you things like milk. +Cos it starts going all over the place. +Come on. +Timothy. +There. +Ooh. +I drink that +I shall have your guts for garters one day. +Oh, good job I don't wear glasses isn't it? +going to be recorded everything. +Funny expression isn't it, that one? +Please may I have some tea? +Certainly my dear. +Thank you. +So what's on the agenda for you today then dear? +Work work and more work. +Oh. +suppose Julia will be there. +boss +Suppose the what, sorry? +Don't suppose Julia will be there. +My boss is getting to the position where he wants lots of information from me. +Last night, before I came home he dragged me into his office to work out how much money we spend Pontypool delivering parts to Solihull. +And do you know? +No, so you had to sit and work it out. +We had, we had to work it out. +Yeah. +I sat with a price list. +He sat with a calculator. +He only did that simply because he gets asked questions. +Mm. +Thing I don't approve of is the fact that when I ask questions +You don't get +that he needs and he needs to speak to his boss, he doesn't get answers from his boss. +But when his boss chases him for, you know information or whatever you know . +I only got four sultanas +information. +today. +It's stopped has it? +Four sultanas today. +Oh dear. +There's lots of Alpen in here but not very many sultanas. +Really? +They're probably all at the bottom. +What? +They are probably all at the bottom. +You say they're always at the top. +Actually they do tend to be, don't they? +They tend to be at the top and then there's sort of little bits and pieces go at the bottom. +So perhaps you'd had it. +Perhaps you won't get any sultanas now. +Why? +Till the end of the Alpen. +I don't know. +I'm just guessing. +I'm afraid the toast wasn't very square shaped. +Somebody must have sat on the loaf or something. +Probably squashed it on the way home from Tesco's. +you squash it. +Then +Well it did get squashed. +Did you see? +What's happened to the loaf? +Somebody must have sat on it, or pulled it or +if you do that +I one. +No. +You'll find your sandwiches at work will be a little, your sandwiches at school will be a little bit squashed. +Well he works. +He works at school. +What? +Daddy told, said when your sandwiches are at work. +You know what I meant. +He meant at school. +But then he said you do work at school so it's alright. +Course he does. +Works very hard. +Oh, it's a big fat one, this. +Be careful stop. +You're having all of it . +And I had to spend a whole hour in a meeting not not an hour, two and a half hours in a +I still haven't got very little much +meeting with the French yesterday with +To listen to the French to say non. +You know +the French say non. +Except they didn't quite say non, one word. +And I haven't. +They said it in a round about way for two and a half hours. +Look at mine. +Look at mine . +We knew they were coming to say non. +That's why the meeting had been arranged. +They didn't need to take two and a half hours over it. +Look at mine. +I didn't have any. +And look at mine, I've finished. +I've finished. +And me. +I need some more milk . +Would everybody stop shrieking. +Hands off the jug please. +Off the jug . +What's the problem? +I want a drink please. +There's some for you. +Ugh. +And some for you. +And nobody ask for any more till toast. +That's a lot. +Ooh, a cat. +Nobody +Go away pussy. +Why? +Go away. +Go away . +It's amazing how a huge c a huge cat like that can get underneath I've just planted my bulbs +I saw, I saw a cat. +I saw a cat on the step. +I think all the +Mum. +Mummy. +Mummy . +big green pellet things +Mum why did you say go away? +Please don't shout at me. +I don't like it. +Why did you say go away when he wasn't on the flowers? +Well, I don't mind him walking across that bit but +But why did he shout it? +Who, Tim? +Mm. +That might be why he's gone away. +Well that's alright. +We don't mind that. +What did you try to say? +Mum. +Yes. +I saw a black cat on the step. +Did you? +But he went away. +Oh. +Cos I shouted go away then he went. +. +Right. +We're not, not very friendly towards cats here are we? +I don't mind other people's cats in their homes like erm there's a cat at Holly Cottage isn't there? +Yeah, a black one. +Is that a nice cat, do you stroke it? +Yeah. +Yes it is a nice one mummy. +Remember it do you? +Yeah. +It's the ones that come along and just have to do things in the middle of the garden. +There's a few little flaps mummy +That's right. +in Holly Cottage where it can go through and it's a great +Oh that's nice. +it's very big and they're only small flaps. +Mm. +Cat flap. +Well you can see how cats can squeeze underneath fences +Mm. +so I'm sure they can squeeze through cat flaps if they need to. +Is he meant to have half of that? +Yes. +I don't want half. +It is raining. +Mummy, it is raining. +I don't want ha I don't want half. +I want a whole. +And what's Tim going to eat? +Nothing. +Could you make another one for him? +Make another one for him dad. +Make another one for him. +No. +doesn't it? +What's that? +The amount of toast consumed. +off colour day wasn't it? +Whenever it was. +How's your throat today? +Much better today. +I think it suddenly improved. +I would advise Tarazets if you want to try and get rid of it. +It's definitely worked for me. +Suck Tarazets if . +Think I need, think I need some Tarazets. +My throat's hurting. +Your throat's hurting is it? +Oh. +Poor Tim. +Mine is as well mum. +. +So's mine. +Ha! +Think all of us want one.. +Mine's on it's way out. +Mum's on it's mum's is on it's way out. +If I have it o one first, then you, then him then +I'm not bothering today cos I think mine is nearly better now. +It can get better by itself now. +One for me, then Christopher, then dad. +Then we +Well it went Tim no it went mummy +No. +Mummy. +Mummy's not having any . +But she always, she used to have one. +So she had it first, you had it second erm daddy had it third and I had it fourth. +You've got on your jumper. +Mm. +I've just seen that too Tim. +Oh. +How did that happen? +I don't know. +Perhaps your arm +Think you your jumper. +I didn't. +Where is my marmalade? +Marmite. +If you said please may I have the marmalade it might arrive. +Why has it got a mar and E on the end? +Cos otherwise it would be marmit. +See, marmit I it's marmite. +Mum +Where's the marmalade? +Right in front of you. +Where? +Oh! +Here's the marmalade. +He didn't ask for it. +He just said where is it. +Just say, please can I have it. +say please may I have the marmalade. +Peas. +He didn't. +I said peas. +Not please, I didn't say please. +Oh. +Well say thank you when you get it. +Thank you. +I said +That's it. +peas instead of please. +I said peas +Timothy, how did you manage to get on your knees again? +What? +Easy. +Easy-peasy. +He must have got a spring. +Automatic spring in there. +What? +What? +You're supposed to sit down to eat Tim. +Remember? +I've finished. +There. +Right. +Thank you. +Is he sitting down mum? +No he's kneeling up. +my milk. +Yes he is kneeling up. +So, this afternoon +Mhm. +When we go to the dentist. +we gather at the dentist at four o'clock. +Shall we gather at the dentist . +You'll get there just before. +Erm will you be able to take some money? +A chequebook, I'll take. +Right. +Cos it costs so much now. +I think they put the rate up didn't they? +Recently. +Did they? +Yeah. +So how much is it now, for children? +It's Ruth's birthday today. +It is Ruth's birthday today. +That's very clever. +How do you know that? +Mm mm. +He just remembers these things. +Mm. +It's not your birthday +No, Ruth's. +No not mine. +Ruth's +Your cousin. +Cousin Ruth. +Remember Ruth? +Went to stay with them and Ruth came to read to you in the morning. +Oh no, Ann came to read to you in the mornings didn't she? +Ruth wasn't with us in the mornings. +Ruth. +Yes, you remember. +Ruth and Ann +and Uncle David and Auntie Gwen. +Do you remember them? +We went to stay in their house one weekend. +And we went with them to the zoo. +Do you remember? +Oh yes. +Remember going to the zoo? +We went on a little steam train as well. +And you and me nearly nearly didn't get on the train. +Do you remember the train? +They were all waiting for us. +We had to run quick. +Why? +I can't remember what we were doing. +Probably weeing up a tree somewhere. +because, think the train nearly went. +Yes. +Everybody else was sitting on the train. +We had to run quick to get on it. +Because, because the little train nearly without us. +Mm. +Did nearly go without us. +If it went without you +We'd have to catch the next one. +Mm. +That's right. +Cos there's only one train. +It was going round and round wasn't it? +Mm. +We'd have to wait for the next one then. +Mm. +So are we all being examined today? +We are, this is a family trip. +Right. +Because said, are the children coming for a check up too. +Well, I have some Marmite. +Cos otherwise it's silly if we go +Yeah. +and then they go and they never know where they are. +Can I have some Marmite on this? +Are the children supposed to go every six months? +Something like that. +Well that's okay. +So it ought to work out twelve and a six month +Mum. +so that we go every twelve and they go every six. +Can you chop it? +But somehow or another it got out of sequence. +Can you chop No chop it. +Oh chop, sorry. +I'm not listening to you am I? +Presuming that our dentist still wants to do National Health Service work. +Cos most of them are threatening to give up aren't they? +Are they? +No. +Yeah. +And do what? +Private? +Mum mum . +Private work. +Cos they say they don't get paid enough money for the N H S. +So people like, except the children you mean? +No. +For everybody. +The vast majority of dentists have threatened to +Well how come when we're paying so much? +Do you want +Well because you'd have to pay even more if you did it privately. +My throat hurts. +Oh I see. +Is it dear? +Do you want two ? +Yeah. +Mm mm mm. +A please. +A messy . +A ? +What's a ? +I can't wear my new shoes this morning can I? +Why not? +Oh no you can't cos it's school. +You can wear them when you get home. +Mm. +And walk to the dentist. +What? +And walk to the dentist in your new shoes. +And at the dentists. +Yeah. +Well you don't take your shoes off at the dentists. +He doesn't look at your feet, he only looks at your teeth. +He'll get a shock when he sees your teeth won't he? +Four of them have changed since you last came. +Is it today? +Is it today? +Mhm. +Oh. +It feels funny when she you do it. +Mum. +Yeah. +Is it are you going to be checked? +Yes. +Mummy and daddy and you two. +We're all going, family trip. +And me? +Mhm. +At the bed time? +Yes and you. +At bed time? +No, four o'clock it is. +I'm gonna look at my teeth. +It's a little, it's a little ploy to get daddy home early. +What? +gonna look at my teeth? +Daddy'll have to come home a bit early to have it done. +gonna look at my teeth? +Yes. +Will you let him? +Yes? +Will you sit on the chair, open your mouth, let him stick a mirror in? +Aah. +Stick a mirror in? +We don't +I seem to remember last time you got two stickers didn't you, cos you had super clean teeth? +I bet you only get one sticker this time. +Why? +You think I'm gonna get two? +You'd have to clean them out very did that. +I think you were a bit lucky to get two stickers. +I would have thought one sticker would be sufficient really. +It was when Mrs was there then wasn't it mummy? +Was it? +Mrs was there. +Mm probably. +Mm. +It was. +Oh you went to school didn't you? +There was a dentist came to school, remember? +And we had a letter home saying something about you need to go to the local dentist or something for treatment. +Poss no possible treatment. +And I think it was cos of the wobbly front tooth when you bent it back when you fell over my foot. +But next time it won't +So we didn't bother going because we were regularly going anyway. +What? +You didn't bother going cos we +No. +were regularly going? +Yeah. +Well I didn't see much point +What does regularly mean? +Regularly means that we go in anyway t every six months you go and have your teeth checked to see if they're okay. +Every six +So just when some some bod comes to school and opens your mouth and says ooh, this looks interesting, there's not much point because our own dentist knows about it. +So you don't really need to be checked at school? +No I wouldn't have thought so. +But some people don't go to the dentist regularly, so they need to be checked at school. +People like Michelle probably never set eyes on a dentist normally. +It's probably a good thing for a dentist to have a look at her teeth and see what needs doing. +Because her mum and her mum doesn't ? +Mm probably. +They've never been? +Probably not. +Why? +We have. +I'm just guessing. +We've been, yeah. +But not everybody does. +Well not everybody likes dentists and they think that something +Well well we +awful's gonna happen to them. +They're wrong +What? +cos it's nice isn't it, at the dentist? +Think everyone goes. +To the dentist. +Well everybody ought to go to the dentist if they want to keep their teeth nice and healthy. +But not everybody does cos some people get frightened of dentists and they think ooh I don't want to go there. +But that's silly cos there's nothing to be frightened of is there? +It's nice at the dentist. +No no-one can get frightened. +Mm. +But they won't get stickers will they? +True. +They won't get stickers dad. +If they go +got toothbrushes to give you but the +Mm. +can't see that can you? +No, you can't see that. +That's why you need a mirror. +Could I have one of those ? +Can you have what? +Have one of those things. +What things? +Those pink things that af after we had our lunch. +Pink things? +Yeah. +Er those things in that bottle. +Oh I know what you mean. +For your throat? +Yeah. +Yes you can do, just wipe your hands first. +Why? +Well he's got his sore throat here. +I've got a sore throat too. +Have you? +Right. +And you. +You can have one each. +Where are they? +In the kitchen. +Would I spot it? +I don't know. +Think I'm going to get them because I I +No Tim. +Mummy has to get those. +It says on the bottle, only mummies touch medicines. +Well no, not quite but +It doesn't really. +One for you. +One for Tim. +One for you, daddy, would you like one of these . +One yeah cos he's allowed . +He's allowed to have one. +Yeah. +I I I've got one. +Have you? +Yes. +I've got one. +Look. +Yes. +Already had these before daddy. +And me. +I I I I had another piece. +Right. +Are we gonna have a song? +I shouldn't be here. +I'm late. +It's got to be very very quick. +Very very quick. +And I want to watch the telly. +Well hold on cos +Right. +Can we have a prayer? +Can I have be bold? +Right. +Yes. +After the prayer. +just gonna have a prayer, right. +. +Heavenly father +Be bold. +we pray that you'll be with us today. +That you'll help us as we go out. +Go to nursery and school and work and do different things. +Pray that we'll listen to you. +To help us to be friends to those we meet. +That you'll look after and keep us safe until the end of the day. +Amen. +Amen. +Be bold +Be bold +be strong +be strong for the lord your god is with you +be bold +be bold +be strong +be strong +for the lord your god is with you. +I am not afraid no no no. +I am not dismayed, not me, for I'm walking in the of victory. +Cos I'm a walking of victory. +For the lord your god is with you. +Bom bom +Now your turn. +Jesus' love is very wonderful. +Where's dad? +Dad's in the kitchen. +Bubye funny. +No +Bubye bubye bubye +You sound like a monkey . +Bubye. +Bubye. +No-one's listening to a word you're saying Tim. +What's your problem? +Jesus . +You want to sing Jesus ? +Yeah, with dad. +Dad's gone I'm afraid cos he's gonna be late. +Jesus' love is very wonderful, Jesus' love is very wonderful Jesus' love is very wonderful, very wonderful love +very wonderful, Jesus' love is very wonderful Jesus' love is very wonderful, oh wonderful love +Christopher. +What? +Your clothes are upstairs on the chair. +Mum . +go and get them on please. +In we go. +In we go. +Shall we close the door? +You knit you knit Tim's jumpers don't you Dot? +Er sometimes, it depends. +Granny and +Ah they're not all granny's. +Some are granny's and some +Oh I was just oh what a lovely jumper. +Did you knit it? +And she said no, grandma knitted it. +Do you remember the teddybear one? +The trouble is he's wearing it out for Christopher so you won't see the new one. +you mean you didn't knit these? +I didn't knit this one, but I did knit the teddy one. +Remember the teddy one? +No. +Cos Tim said you knitted one. +He wears the, mm +I said did nanny and he said no mummy knitted it. +No I do, I do knit. +Not often, but I knit. +Trouble is granny does it and she's got loads of time. +She sits there and does them twice as fast as me. +I th what I like doing, I like the pictures. +Yes. +So I don't mind doing the pictures. +If she'd do the sleeves and the back for me I'd be very grateful . +Yeah. +Whereas she can't stand doing the pictures cos it takes her too much time. +It's like doing tapestry. +Yeah. +I like the picture bits +And then there's all this, yeah green or something at the back. +So when I did one I sort of +Ooh +rationed myself. +A few rows of green +good gracious! +and then I could do a flower. +It's just ridiculous +Good for the good for the soul. +Let's open you up. +Why is it you can't do this, eh? +Cos you're on strike when we come to nursery and you like to feel that way. +Look at this owl sitting looking at us. +Sweet isn't it? +Little bit battered now. +It's got a lot of bits missing. +Oh well, well he still looks very sweet to those of us who are not familiar with him. +Oh yeah. +Well no but +She keeps apologizing for him. +perfectly normal +I think she thinks he ought to be totally angelic, you know +They're not though are they, really? +Oh yeah. +No we insist upon being normal children . +Oh. +Yeah, what are we gonna do today then? +This side or the other side? +Do you want to go and see what's going on in the sitting room? +Or are you going to come in here? +Ooh, hello Bubble. +Where are you gonna be? +Do you want to go this way and have a look? +Shall I give you a kiss and say goodbye? +Oh no you don't like kisses at the moment do you? +Oh dear, don't you like sloppy kisses? +Sometimes he does, just before he goes to bed but you have to put them in just the right place. +Morning. +Morning. +Morning ladies. +Are you going? +They're all in here, the other people. +No? +What are you gonna do? +Let me down, let me down mum, let me down. +Ooh gosh it's cold this morning. +Alright Tim? +Sort of. +We don't quite know what to do with ourselves at the moment. +Morning Rebecca, morning Elizabeth. +Morning. +Isn't it cold this morning? +I'm warm. +Oh I'm warm too. +Or are you sickening for something? +I think in fact it was too warm but I still thought it was cold. +And it was so warm today. +The flu. +Definitely the flu. +Mm my husband's in bed. +Oh well there we are. +So I probably am coming down with . +Oh dear. +Mm what are we doing dearest? +That's a nice jumper Tim. +What have you got on your buttons? +Oh, pussycats. +Could be Bubble pussycats couldn't it Tim? +Morning Cath. +I'm coming, I'm coming. +Morning. +Everybody's arriving aren't they Tim? +Shall we go in there and help find a jigsaw or something? +Cos you like doing that don't you? +seems to be our general general start in life. +Ooh this looks nice. +Oh that's a nice one isn't it? +Chains and . +Right, I'll see you later then. +Can I blow you one today or not? +Bye. +Can't kiss him . +My other one's kissy so it's alright. +He's huggy this one, not kissy. +He doesn't like wet sloppy kisses, he thinks it's silly. +do any sloppy kisses? +No only one. +sloppy kisses and this this little girl we had sloppy kisses ooh that's mucky, that's just for babies. +So we don't have any sloppy kisses can't sleep at night. +You haven't lent it to him have you? +Oh. +Then in the end she decides it's alright. +Oh. +She can bear +I wouldn't like to say what they're doing. +Look at that one, he's on his back. +Is one of them a drake then? +Must be. +Yes. +Which one's which? +Well he's got a little . +That one's on the other's back. +Oh I say! +Oh they might they're coming for a swim now look. +Ooh just gonna have a drink. +Are you going to pop in there, go for a swim? +Come on. +In there. +In. +Going to have a swim? +Oh yes, there we go. +Yes, he's doing what you told him. +Nice isn't it? +Come on. +Let's get in the car then. +Lovely aren't they? +Come on then. +No. +Think these ones gonna go in. +Well I think we'd better leave them just to do what they like, cos I expect Gwen wants to get on with her dinner now. +Yeah, and I want to go and get +We need to go home. +I'm going to get some lunch at grandma's. +Going to grandma's house for our lunch now. +Have you had a nice morning at nursery? +Mind that road. +Wait at the gates. +Stop there, wait. +Good boy. +Have you shown grandma your new shoes? +No. +Oh. +Mind, cos there's a car coming Tim. +Played in the sand. +Played in the sand? +Was that with good James or naughty James? +Naughty James. +Ooh. +Was naughty James good? +So there we are. +Mm. +And they use the whole of the house, you know there's the downstairs, that little room that you saw. +Yeah. +That's known as the nursery room. +Yeah. +And then they go in all the rest +Then they go in all the rest of the well just the downstairs. +Downstairs, mm. +So they can go, they have a story time in the sitting room, you know with a +That's nice that's +They play on the floor with a +Yeah. +trucks and everything. +It's friendly isn't it? +Mm. +You know what I mean? +It's not institutionalized. +Well it's better isn't it? +Well I think so. +And there's nobody shrieking at them and there's only twelve of them there and you know, nobody's getting cross with anybody. +Well I mean I suppose they do when they do something stupid. +But there's not there's not like +Yeah. +That's right. +Which is also why I feel that he ought to go to Ironcrest as well. +Because otherwise school will become a little +Mm. +horrendous won't it? +And if he goes to +Specially Woodrow +just for mornings only he'll be able to stick up for himself and that won't he? +Yeah. +But it's sad really because I mean does all sorts of things with them which +He won't get when he goes, mm +But then Christopher survived didn't he? +Yeah. +And I think it's important +That's where they normally put it. +Sometimes they put it in the erm van. +Mm. +But one lad messed about and pushed it through those holes. +Which is, Mary said, she said did you? +I said I did I said and I had an awful job to get it out again. +Said they were roaring laughing watching him try I don't know why he tried to push them in there. +Mm nor do I . +There you are. +Had a phone call from the health visitor this morning. +Shock. +See if Timothy was alright. +To tell me he would, she would come when he was four and a quarter. +It's christmas isn't it? +Oops! +I'm falling out here. +Right, would you like to take those for grandma? +No you. +And that's for grandma. +You, you take it. +Well there's lots for grandma so we'll have to sort out what's what. +That looks like us that's us, that's us that's us, that's grandma. +Can you go and ask her how many bags she's got? +Tim? +Could you go and ask her how many bags she's got? +How many? +Try +One two three four +Four. +There's only four. +Well that's okay then. +There's one. +For you. +Can you manage that one, it's a bit heavy? +You take those two and I'll take +Okay. +How many bags do you think you had? +I don't know . +One two three four we've got. +We've got four. +Yeah, sausages. +So it's not mine, so if we've got it somebody else's. +This thing's still round. +Oh yes. +We've got four. +We've got four what? +Have you locked your car then? +Four bags. +Have you locked the car? +I've shut it up anyway. +I don't think I've locked it actually. +I don't +wish +could come Monday. +Mm? +She could come Monday. +Otherwise I won't see her will I? +I tell you what then, you bring Timothy here erm if you're going swimming. +Oh right! +I'd forgotten about that. +And we'll give him a ride on the bus to your house. +And meet you at our house? +You, you'll have to bring Timothy here. +Yeah. +Then you can er come too soon, I don't know what time the trains be in. +What time is she coming, is she arriving? +Well she should be, should get the twelve thirty six. +Oh. +So, you'll have to bring +Well that could get confusing. +We'll have to see whether we go swimming. +I should think we will cos +If you're going to go swimming bring Timothy here +very lively. +and then we'll get on the bus about half past four and bring him to your house. +Right. +Cos he'll like that won't he? +Yes. +Oh. +I thought that we, we we sort of eating up I think. +You'll have to decide what you want. +What's the choice? +There's erm +What are you doing Tim? +Are you full of energy? +Yes he is isn't he? +He's normally wiped out after nursery. +Well +Mummy was last collecting you wasn't she? +what's in these. +We'll have to look. +There's two with corned beef. +Two with corned beef. +Three with cream cheese and one with real hard cheese but I can't +You can't think out which one +find which is, it is. +There's still some more things in here. +I think you need to go to the toilet first before we have lunch. +Erm and go and go to the toilet then . +Let's go. +I'll have a l we'll have to look inside and see what's in. +Would you like some tomato mummy? +Erm +I like cream cheese. +You like cream cheese. +Yes please. +I'll put you one out. +What? +What what what? +What what grandma say? +Tomato. +Would I like a tomato. +No. +And I said yes please. +Would you like a tomato? +No. +Well that's alright then. +I want cream cheese all by itself. +Right-y-ho. +Er the tomatoes +Do you want to sit in your place? +were they left in your er car? +Oh. +Why, are they in a special bag? +They're in a bag on their own I think. +Can't see them, +Bag on their own? +I think they were on their own. +Were they er l loose or were they in a packet? +In a packet in a bag. +I just take +That's that's the apples. +We've got the apples. +Oh they're here. +Tell mummy they're here. +We've got them. +We've got them . +No, we've got them. +I did worry about that cos I don't think +You'd seen them like, no. +Yeah. +Tomatoes knocking about +I takes them out. +Yes alright, well you needn't bother any more with those +Oy. +Right. +Now let's start. +had my children have you?my children? +I know. +And me. +It's horrid. +And then I had a go at him. +Yes they always go in that +I'm started. +Pardon? +I'm starting. +Well don't start until grandma comes. +Well just look what he wants in mummy. +We're just waiting for you grandma. +Yes right. +It's polite. +Shall we put the light on? +Well let's wait until grandma's sat down cos she can't think straight otherwise. +Are you coming to sit down for this meal? +Are you warm enough? +There's no heat on at the moment. +No I'm sweltered thank you. +Right, now we've got to see which is hard cheese and which is +My throat's hurting. +Is it? +What's hurting love? +His throat's hurting. +My throat. +Oh well,th +We've had a family sore throat. +I think that is cream, ooh that'll be lovely and soft. +Ooh cream please. +I want this one. +That's well I don't know whether that's real cheese or cream cheese. +You'll have to just look. +Yeah, cream cheese. +Is it? +Oh that's okay then. +Now then +I've got one. +You can say thank you now . +Amen. +Yeah these are cream cheese. +Is it nice? +Seems a long long time since we used to do it. +Cos we used to do this every week didn't we? +Come to you for lunch. +Yeah, but we've changed the menu since, I mean we've changed the erm +Itinerary. +Mm. +Think these are +You always used to come when it was erm ch er erm tumbletots +Think think think these are +Mm. +Think those are all cream cheeses. +If Matthew's not going to come on a Wednesday +You could come couldn't you? +we could come on a Wednesday sometimes, couldn't we? +Mm. +otherwise we're missing out aren't we? +Mm. +On the other hand they come to you on a Monday or a Tuesday +It makes it a rush +don't they? +Yeah. +It makes it a rush if you're going back to school. +Mm. +Won't it? +Mm. +I like it when you come and we sort of can not in a rush. +You know. +Well we shall have to stick to the occasional I bought some of that cheese. +You know, did you see me tasting some? +Mm erm what was it? +It was called real cheese turned into a spread. +So it's not cream cheese in a spread. +It's ordinary che proper cheese in a spread? +Mm. +Oh. +Interesting. +I don't know what they've done to it to make it spread, but still. +Melted it. +cream cheese +No there's one +Thought I might as well try it out. +that's erm that's corned beef, that one. +Yeah. +So one of those is real cheese and one is cream cheese. +I don't know which. +Think that is cream cheese. +It like that one. +you'll find out. +Do you want a drink Tim? +No. +Not yet. +I've got . +After I after I've eaten that bread. +Mhm. +I've still got +They've changed changed all the programmes. +I thought u at five past nine on a Friday we usually have erm desert island discs. +It wasn't, did you you ? +Desert island discs. +And it's that +Oh no, what a and it wasn't on anywhere else was it? +I mean I think +It was erm the Welsh whatsit party wasn't it? +Mm. +Oh I switched it off. +I was that disgusted, I was waiting for the music. +And me. +I enjoy listening to that while I'm +Yeah. +pottering about tidying up. +Yeah I do. +Yeah. +Mm that something else did it, ooh. +They think, they seem to think that we want to think about the election all the time. +Well you don't do you? +No. +I'm quite happy to listen to some things about the election cos in fact I don't know +I think you have to keep up. +You've got to keep up with it a bit but I think that all those at the same +And they also just tell it the flavour they fancy don't they? +Mm. +Course they do. +That's what gets me. +This is cream cheese this. +Good. +Meanwhile you know, the rest of the world +Is going on. +Yeah. +And we don't know what's going on in it do we? +No. +I tell you what's a good programme er the seven o'clock erm +I suppose if I got a newspaper it would help. +Yeah but you've got to plough through the newspaper +Page twenty four +Mm. +before you get any news. +Mm. +Mm cos it's all full of Du Duchess of erm York now. +Oh well, that's a do isn't it? +Can I have my bread? +I'm not surprised. +cream cheese. +Have a look and see what's in it. +Have a look before you bite it. +Yeah it is cream cheese. +Oh good. +It is. +In that case I'll have this corned beef one if that's alright. +Nice corned beef, mm. +I think, think this one's cream cheese. +Oh I expect +There's speculation about the other two isn't there? +Mm? +Charles and Diana. +Oh aye there's something, some somebody they said no, they're alright. +But you don't know. +I think think think think think think th think that one is not cream cheese. +Think that one's real cheese. +Hard one. +Think that's a hard one. +Yes I I think it's got to be. +Well you don't mind them having their ups and downs provided they +Yeah . +to the ups. +Well, you know. +They don't seem to want to try. +They went together, they've been somewhere together the other night. +Who? +Prince and Princess of Wales. +If you, if you look inside it +If you look inside +I mean they seem to erm erm decide on what things they're going to support. +Yeah. +They seem to have got it together a bit more. +If you, if if you look inside this one +Yeah? +it is real cheese. +Good. +Is it? +Oh. +It's not cream cheese that one. +Chatterbox. +Mm. +There's something I'm oh I remember. +You know, you remember Margaret, next door to us in Hartsett Close +No yes. +She's got a job at . +Oh has she? +Is she teaching? +Yeah. +Mm. +I can't remember what it is is it nice the ch +She got married didn't she? +Yeah, she got married er it was told me. +Ooh do you know I said I can't remember it. +Somebody who used to live next door to you, so it must have been Hartsett Close then. +Oh Margaret Margaret. +Oh yes I said, but I don't know what her married name is. +And I said and I can't +Mm. +I can't even remember her surname. +Mm? +I can't even remember her erm maiden name. +And it was their dog that used to itself and there was Pat and +Mm. +A nice, nice family. +Mm. +And the chap, he was nice. +He was nice. +They were all nice, that family. +Do you remember them going away and leaving and leaving Nancy and she had that +Mm she was a case. +With the party? +Yeah, but she's she's calmed down now. +Has she? +She yes. +Oh yes. +She learned her lesson on that one. +turned up that she'd not invited. +They, they spoilt the toilet. +Didn't they pull the toilet out or some such problem? +I don't know. +They said they'd never go away and leave her again. +They went that's right. +They went to N erm Margaret's er degree er thing. +Er it, I mean, mm. +She was friendly with er Cath wasn't she? +Yeah. +Well they reckon she's joined this christian group, Margaret did. +Mm. +Anyway, she's teaching at St Clements school. +Are the still in Hartsett Close then? +Mm. +Oh. +Last time I saw them they were. +What's it like up there now? +It's alright. +All, all that Manchester Road improvement oh it's all been done up you see. +Mm? +Mm. +. +Have they put nice families in? +Yes and so, you see there's er there's two er places for old people. +Er er +So it's on the up ? +Think +And they've tak beautiful it is. +Because it was doing it when I was there. +And they've had permission +I think are mine. +Is it? +Think one of these I think, think these are mine. +Mm well, you'll want some pudding won't you? +Yeah. +Erm, what was I going to say? +Meant to tell you about Margaret the other day and it's just dawned on me, I meant to tell you before I forget. +It was because the rector told me on Sunday night. +Here they are. +Well they, the nursing home is beautiful. +They've made ever such a a ramp right from the front, it goes round and round and round and round, so it's all flat up to the front door. +Mm. +And the gardens they've made, they've made beautiful and do you know they've had permission to use the old name . +Oh. +So the name is still there. +And that other big house, opposite the end of Ashenhill Lane don't you remember? +So the house is now an old people's home? +Not, the house is burnt down. +I know. +But they've called it the house? +Yes, yes it's an old people's home sort of thing, mm. +That's the real cheese for somebody. +For somebody. +Mm. +Who's that one? +I don't know. +Do you want some? +No. +No. +Think you can have that. +I don't think I want it thank you. +Well I tell you what +Perhaps grandma'll have it. +I think I'll save it. +Cos I I've had enough . +Have it for another day. +Mm. +Well +I'll fetch what we're going to have for pudding cos it's a bit bit of a cha er it +We nanas. +you have, you have to choose +You think it's bananas? +Yeah. +He thinks it's bananas. +Well, he might be right. +I think it is nanas. +Er he's seen some out there. +Oh. +But there's not one each you see. +You already have to choose what we have. +Think you, you two will have to have apples. +Think you have to have a nana. +And mummy can have a apple cos I need a nana, and you need a nana as well. +Mummy will have to have a +Oh he's got it all worked out. +What if I want a banana? +You can't have one. +You yes you can. +Oh. +I've got some more new ones. +Only that I bought green ones didn't I? +So +You can have a green one. +I don't want a green banana thank you. +Right. +I'll go and see +I want a yellow one and you want a +You wait there and see what I bring. +Mm. +Let's see what what brings. +Why didn't you make me a lamb this morning? +Cos I did er . +How did they make them? +stick them on. +They stuck something on? +Yeah. +Cotton wool? +Oh I'd have liked to +Yeah. +a lamb. +I'd have liked a lamb. +You were too busy doing other things? +Mm. +Mi mingy thing. +What were you doing all the time then? +Think it is nanas. +What were you doing while everybody else was sticking lambs? +I want +Are you eating up ? +Would you like me to put the kettle mummy? +I want those pink things again. +Pink things again? +Yeah. +What pink things? +For throats. +Oh, they're at home. +Yeah, I want +Now you can ch +Oh my goodness +sort it out yourselves now. +I did +You can have just what you like. +Two things, you see. +Think I could have +Mummy I think mummy ought to choose first. +No, I think I have to choose first cos think you need a nana. +And I going to have a bis +What, which two things are you gonna have? +These. +I'm gonna have +You want a banana and a biscuit? +Okay. +Yeah +I'll just have one thing. +I'll just have a yogurt. +It's not a yogurt, it's a +Oh, whatever it is, a mousse +Well I don't want a banana. +I'm going to have a mousse too. +Oh, sorry. +I'll have one of those. +Now would you like me to put the kettle on or not? +Now, or not? +Oh yes please. +Mm. +I haven't got a spoon to eat this with. +I think I'm going to have to eat it with my fingers. +I put a spoon somewhere. +Well not here you haven't. +I put two knives instead. +We don't eat it with knives do we? +I hope this banana's okay. +It's a bit grey. +How long have you had these bananas? +They look a bit grey. +They're not, they were, they were green +They're alright inside are they? +and they're alright when you undo them cos I had one for my, I had, I had one with erm Kelloggs cornflakes last night. +You never know with bananas do you, what they're going to be like inside? +No you don't. +Just wait and see what if not he'll have to have something else. +Only two? +Only two what? +Two things. +I'm only having one thank you. +Well I'm going to I'm going to have two things. +Mm. +I'm going to +Do you want coffee or tea? +Erm I don't mind really. +What are you having? +going to make a pot of tea. +Well I'll have a tea. +That'll be nice. +I think I'll have that nana this one. +Oh alright then. +There you are. +Put that one back. +Think it's a bit grotty. +Oh! +Think it's okay. +Mm. +They're alright when you get the cover off, you know. +Cover off! +Cover! +I took the cover off last night and had them with er cornflakes and they were lovely. +Well, it is a cover. +Isn't it? +But you don't usually say that. +I've got those photographs back by the way. +Oh have you? +So you can have one. +Eh? +Well they're just like the first one. +Oh of course those that, yeah. +Have you, have you brought me one then? +Yeah. +Good. +I ordered twenty five. +You did. +I remember, I was with you. +Do you remember? +We had Martin +The woman was horrified wasn't she? +Mm. +Couldn't believe it. +have to have with my nana. +What am I have to do with my nana? +Eat it, I should think. +Little bites? +Yes. +I am a bit it's too many Think took too much. +Mm. +It's alright, I'm just seeing if there was any tea in it. +Not yet dear. +Cos that would have been a bit quick really wouldn't it? +Was a bit quick for it to boil, yeah. +I don't +Oh that was very nice. +Thank you. +I don't keep a machine out there. +I could do with a nice sleep now. +Mum +Well I don't think you'll get it . +I don't think I am either. +I don't want +You what? +We could have I tell you, we can have +we could have the rad er telly for him on there couldn't we? +One o'clock does he watch that ? +He never does normally but he might do it today. +Given the opportunity. +Well we can try it can't we? +Mm. +I've got to go to the post office actually. +You want milk. +Oh it +Oh. +They don't, it doesn't shut. +I don't think it shuts. +As far as I know. +I don't know Dorothy. +I don't think it does. +I think it stays open all the time now. +Mm. +Like the main one do. +The main one shuts? +No. +Oh. +Oh look at that. +Can you not hold it? +Fast +No. +tight. +Erm what was I going to say? +No +I don't know. +it's gone. +Yes, I've got to post a card for Ruth. +Er not a card a present for Ruth. +Mm. +sent a card yesterday. +And then I've got some letters to post that I've written and hopefully will write in the next hour or so. +Oh well it'll be open by two o'clock . +Well I thought if I have a walk over there at two then by the time I get back it'll be time to go and get Christopher won't it? +From school. +And are you going to see +And then we're going to the dentist at four. +One two +Oh are you? +Mm. +three. +There's only three biscuits. +There's only one nana. +And I've eaten the other nana. +You have haven't you? +Banana. +You can't say banana can you? +No. +Bana. +Banana. +Banana. +B B +No. +I go +It's like your marmalade in the morning isn't it? +What do you call that? +Marmalade. +Lama oh you can say marmalade! +He said it then didn't he? +Marmalade. +Yes. +He always +Marmalade. +he always calls it lamade or something in the morning, don't you? +Marmalade. +Mm. +Mm. +That's the wrong one. +That's the right one, marmalade. +Banana. +Can you do that one? +B go on, go B. +Banana. +That's it. +Put your lips together go on. +He did it. +Did he? +No. +Banana. +Babana. +There you go banana. +I didn't say that word. +You nearly said it. +B A +Banana. +B A bana. +Ba nana. +I got I told you the about a different bana. +Oh are you? +A different bana? +A orange bana. +An orange banana? +Dear me. +I like those. +Do you? +Whoops. +And some of them have pips in. +You know that programme you were asking about? +Mm. +Maxie's fun +Yeah? +I think I must have watched it or listened to it or something like that. +Oh. +We had it a couple of weeks ago by accident. +And Christopher really enjoyed it +Mummy. +because it was when he was ill. +I thought I'd tape it. +Can I look through +On the, on the on the television Dorothy? +On the television was it? +Can play with, yeah. +Think it was on channel four. +That's oh well I've watched it then. +By mistake some time I have. +Mm. +What? +Can I watch +Would you like to go to grandma and ask her for a cloth? +Yeah. +So what a long time it is since you came, I've tossed it in the drawer. +Hello. +Clean that face, it's grubby. +You're back. +That's a grubby face he's got mummy. +It is a grubby face. +Can you see a bit? +No, not yet. +Can you see that bit? +Er, I can see on the top there but there's lots there and there. +And can you can you see that bit? +No. +There's a piece there but I can't see +Can you see that bit? +Well you'll have to scrub it hard. +Come here. +Can you see that bit? +Come here. +Ah no. +I that bit. +Have a look now. +Can you see that bit? +Yes that's okay now. +Now you need to go round your nose because that's a real mess there. +Getting quite grubby isn't it? +There. +Well not quite. +There's a big crack here I think. +cracks. +There, that's better. +There, it's just round your mouth now. +Beautiful. +There. +Oh look at this handsome boy. +Oh I can see him now. +Mm it's Timothy we've had sitting on that chair. +What about that hand? +Mm. +There. +Good. +Good. +Right. +Let's take it back out shall we? +It's a bit wet isn't it? +Can I watch the ? +Well well if you switch the telly you won't find +Five more minutes. +You can have Sesame Street in five minutes if you +In five minutes. +When that big hand gets up to twelve you can have it on. +I had a different one. +Well there isn't a different one darling. +It'll be all different this from what you've had . +Cos there's no video. +Grandma hasn't got a video. +But there's some nice pictures on in a bit. +Why don't you get some toys to play with? +No. +I want you play with me. +What at? +Erm something. +Something. +Yeah. +What sort of something? +Bricks. +We can get +Bricks? +Bricks. +There's some bricks +Oh. +What was that? +some bricks over here. +What about washing up? +Think grandma . +Oh no she doesn't. +Yeah. +Poor grandma. +Yeah. +She gives us our lunch and we have to wash up for her then. +No. +Oh yes we do. +There seems to be a mess on this table, look. +No, you play. +You help us take the things out to the kitchen. +Wait a minute. +Are you going to have a drink first? +Well I thought if I washed up then I'd have my drink after. +Oh, I'll leave it then. +Because see he could draw on this table then you see if we leave it. +put it up. +Can you er can you put the bubbles in cos I want this to get bubbles on. +Okay. +Let's just go and +Go and wash up for me. +That's right. +I got bubbles on and this one. +Can you put bubbles in? +Yeah, just let the water get hot first. +It's already hot. +Is it? +Yeah, feel it. +Feel. +Feel it. +Mhm. +Feel. +Yes. +It's nice and hot now. +Yeah. +Gently does it. +It gets very hot that that water. +It's hot now. +It is. +Are you going to take that? +Or are you taking the ? +There's now lots of bubbles. +Yeah. +Where's the +It's very hot. +What are you planning on doing with Mrs then? +Well I'm really planning on taking her on +Oh yeah. +That was on Tuesday? +Yeah. +Er on Wednesday. +Seems hardly worth it does it? +Well . +Well if we come and if we come and see your mummy, that'll be nice. +If that's alright . +Don't, don't touch that cos she hasn't had it yet. +Does she eat anything? +What do you mean? +Well I mean +There's no, she's not on a diet if that's what you mean. +If you erm she, yeah she'll like anything you want. +Can I +She's got +Can I take can I put these +Well I sh put that in the thing underneath there. +Mm. +In, in the thing +Oh well where can I put the biscuits? +Well I'll have to find out where they go. +Just a minute. +I think it's fish pie on the agenda on Monday. +Oh well she'll like that then. +Here whe're, whe're you going with that? +Put the, put the +Where does this go? +put that in there. +Yeah. +there's none left you see. +That's ooh! +Oh! +You Mary-Ann He's missed mum. +Just leave those there Tim. +I'll just have to find the box. +He wants to know +Why? +I'll find a box. +Wait a minute. +Where's the box? +They'll have to go in here. +Let grandma do it. +Wait a minute. +One +One +two +two +three +That's it. +And mummy wants the plate to wash. +I give it to +Mind mummy. +Thank you. +There. +You'd better have +Timothy. +What? +What? +Okay, it's okay. +We . +It's alright. +Don't touch the tea because we haven't eaten it yet. +I mean we haven't drunk it yet . +We'll leave that there. +Cos we haven't had it yet. +Take those to mummy to wipe. +Take this one as well. +Here. +Thank you. +Not in here. +Just wipe it. +You've got to wipe it. +Not there. +get soaked. +Look. +Do you need a cloth for the table Tim? +Er well we don't cos we've still got our tea on it. +Right. +It's one o'clock now. +Oh, you can put number four on. +How convenient. +Eh? +Let's see what comes on, shall I? +Shall I throw this out? +I'm gonna press this num pardon? +Do you save that or +I don't think we need it too loud, do we grandma, when it comes up. +Oh it doesn't come up very loud. +I know it doesn't at the moment but you know what I mean. +Well we'll just have it up a little bit else you can't hear what they're saying. +Well I know that but gets a bit er +Er Christopher left his hat. +Did you know? +Did he? +What sort of hat? +The hat that he made. +Oh. +I didn't even know he'd left a +three till next time mummy. +One two three four five six seven eight nine ten eleven. +Eleven. +Right. +next then? +Orange again. +Orange again. +Do you have some of these at nursery? +Thread and beads? +No. +Do you have something a bit like it? +Cos I remember seeing somebody threading some beads once. +No. +In a few minutes Tim we're going to walk to the post office. +they don't seem to have any of these here at Churchill these . +Here you are, pink. +You'd think they would have wouldn't you? +Cos you'd think there'd be a lot of local people who . +Yeah cos erm these I find these lovely for a tea or something when I want to just +Mm. +You'd think more so than a big Tesco's because you wouldn't think lots of people +Yeah well there's rows and rows of them in that big Tesco's. +Oh. +Yeah. +Whoops. +Oh dear. +But sometimes I think cos er an old lady, I've told you about her before she said +I wish they wouldn't have all these big things she said. +I don't want big things. +I said I know, yeah. +Suppose they think they're being a value or something cos they're cheaper. +Yeah but they're not you see are they? +They're not to me because you can have them so long while I think oh not even in the fridge am I keeping this any longer, you know . +I suppose they do keep but you know you sort of think +Well you get fed up with it don't you really? +Yeah. +The same old thing. +And I like to go round and get something erm ooh I think I'll have that, you know? +Something that I wasn't expecting to buy. +But if you've got a whole load of stuff at home +Another blue. +you think you've got to erm you feel you've got to eat it don't you? +How many have we got on here now Tim? +It's quite a lot isn't it? +I don't know. +One two three four five six seven eight nine ten eleven twelve thirteen fourteen sixteen. +Fourteen fifteen, yeah? +Fourteen fifteen and here's number sixteen. +There. +Number sixteen now. +One two three four five six seven eight nine ten eleven twelve thirteen fourteen sixteen seventeen +Fifteen sixteen. +You keep missing out number fifteen. +It goes fourteen fifteen +Seventeen. +There's sixteen on there. +After number fourteen comes fifteen. +No cos there's lots of more. +Yeah it still comes fifteen after fourteen. +Let's put some more on and see what we get next. +There's one. +Catch. +What colour? +Whoa I can't catch them. +I haven't read anything like this before. +For the pedal bin. +Lemon scented. +Lemon scented. +Good grief. +Look. +Got fifty though. +Fifty in a thing for +Mm. +like a penny each they were. +Mm. +Are they environmentally friendly? +I don't know but everything's environment environmentally friendly in that place now. +Mm I think so. +Well it says it is, whether it is or not I don't know. +yellow red. +That's it. +We've got them all on. +Yeah. +So how many have we got now? +We'll do this, we'll just thread this on. +It's . +Ooh you're getting them on. +Wonder how many we've got there. +Ooh I say. +You've got a lot there. +One two three four five six seven eight nine ten eleven twelve thirteen fourteen sixteen seventeen. +Thirteen fourteen fifteen. +Fifteen. +No. +You're your mummy. +Thirteen fourteen fifteen. +He keeps missing out fifteen. +It's +Oh. +And do you know what? +I think there must be another box of these and they've sort of got in and that seems to have got in the wrong box. +Yeah. +I don't think, are they in here? +Yes they're here. +Yes. +Mm. +Oh they're here. +I at our house +Yeah I think they're at my house. +or at yours. +Oh . +What's this on my cushion? +Who's brought sand in? +Me. +You've brought the beach home from nursery. +Good gracious, you'll have no sand left. +Will she? +Was it on your bottom? +No it can't have been. +Shoes, it must have been on your shoes. +No it's, he he was sitting he had, it must be on your shoes. +Have you seen his new shoes grandma? +No, has he got some more? +He's got new shoes. +Are you gonna show grandma your new shoes. +Have you got new shoes? +Didn't show me those did you? +I know his others were getting a bit +Oh I say. +Laces this time. +Ooh, can you tie them? +Look at this already. +Where've you been? +You've only had them on one morning. +Oh. +You've gotta be careful with your shoes haven't you? +Were you scrabbling about the floor? +Well well. +Little boys always do things like that mummy. +Did you know? +No. +Never heard of it. +Haven't you? +Oh. +Well you're hearing about it now I think. +What a mess. +Would you like to ask grandma if she's going to come to the post office with us to help post the parcel? +Or whether we've got to go by ourselves. +I think er go er by ourselves. +Do you? +You go and ask her, see what she'd like to do. +She might want the walk. +You want to come with us? +Where are you going? +To the post office. +Yes I want to pay for me er papers so +Oh well there we are, that's +That's handy. +It is handy. +You're right . +And then I needn't go round that way tomorrow. +If I want to go into town I don't need to worry about . +Are you +Got it. +Are we going now then? +I'm just gonna make a building and then we can get ready. +Alright. +You make a building then I'll . +With me. +Think we need all the the way. +I'm going to put that into here. +Mm. +And these things go erm here. +Mm. +Don't you need a door? +No a lid. +We haven't got a door. +Put a door here. +Now where's the door? +Here's the door. +We need a bit more there. +Need +Well if you do that we won't have time for the shop. +There's a door. +no. +There's the little gap. +Well it's the opening for the door. +No that's the opening for the door. +It's closed this. +There's a window. +It's it's a bit closed, this. +No, that's the building outside it. +That's the building outside it. +Ooh. +That's the building outside the house. +That's . +These these there. +You need some bits over here. +Then we need one of these on top of it. +I've made a house. +Mm I think that's alright that. +I think you've done that rather well. +No. +There's a little bit more. +Well there isn't any more bricks to go for is there? +Yes. +Grandma hasn't got that many bricks. +Need to put these over +Mm. +there. +And that over here. +There. +It's a house. +Good. +Right. +Let's get ready to go out. +No I want to show grandma. +Oh right. +Okay. +Grandma . +Oh good gracious me. +Come and see. +Come and see our building grandma. +Oh that's lovely gran that's a lovely house. +It's our building. +A house. +Mm. +Very nice. +And we've got a set of beads. +And those beads, yes. +Right. +We'd better go now otherwise in a rush. +If you're going to go else you'll be late for Christopher won't you? +I don't want to be in a ru +changed again? +Mm? +I gave it to Christopher this morning cos I knew I'd forget tonight . +Yeah. +So I'll have to go and change it now. +Shall we go and change it now? +Good. +Do you +No I like that one. +Do you? +Oh well there we are then. +Oh well let's go and sort it out with Mrs +I thought I thought it was too complicated to say to him. +Yeah. +And I thought he'd have given it in or something, well Mrs would have took it off of her children. +Erm what am I gonna do with him? +Just a minute, I'll bring him in. +I don't want that one, I wanted +Yeah, I know you wanted that one and I thought well if this morning +It is good actually this one. +We've enjoyed this one, we've had it for two weeks. +Well I said to er Mark I said, we +Mum. +And you can have any number playing. +You know you can have the whole family at it. +Sometimes it takes two minutes and sometimes it takes twenty. +Mum that one. +Hello. +What, do you want this one? +No. +of that one +Oh. +cos she'd had it since the beginning of February. +Oops +I'd say she's lost it unfortunately. +Well I wonder if this one would be +Hold it. +They they've already put a claim on this one. +Oh you're having this one. +You'll have to swap with +Seventy one. +Is this the takeaways any good for Jenny? +Shall we do any takeaways Jenny? +So that's what, seventy one back. +And you want seventy one instead of sixty nine? +Please, yes. +If that's yeah. +Yeah? +Yeah. +Well Mark does. +one to another. +Yes? +What about next Wednesday? +What about next Wednesday ? +All day? +I know your your bottom of the list has come to the top now. +Has it really? +Comes round quick doesn't it? +I give you a little bit of warning. +Could you manage that for Pauline do you think? +Right. +All day? +Yes. +Erm just let me check. +Wh what day are we on? +Wednesday? +Wednesday. +I think it's the twenty fifth. +Think it's the twenty fifth. +Twenty third Monday, yeah. +Er as far as I know that'll be okay. +Okay. +I'll let I'll let you know Monday if I've got trouble with babysitters. +Tell me Monday if you can. +Monday morning if you can. +Yeah. +Okay. +That's fine. +That'll be +Okay. +it'll be nice at the end of the month for you. +Oh wonderful. +You're used to the little ones over this area though aren't you? +More than the top end. +Oh I'll do anything. +Flexibility is my name. +Are you? +Well +Okay Dot? +Yes, fine. +Erm what are we having now? +What do you fancy? +Do you need to go to the toilet? +You nip to the toilet and I'll just have, stay here. +I don't need to. +You alright are you? +You were sort of dallying about from one foot to the other. +What's this here? +This looks fun. +Jumped a log. +Go on six. +Horse racing. +What's this one? +Hallo Alan. +Choose one then please. +Hold on, wait for me to see. +It's coming apart on the back. +I haven't had chance, I only noticed it +Oh okay we'll +and I haven't had chance to count the counters. +Mum I'll have this. +Okay then. +I don't know if all the pieces are there cos I only just noticed, you know? +We've had that one. +Oh we've had that one haven't we? +Alright, we'll have a look at that Mrs . +You've had yours a long t a minute ago cos I've picked it up for somebody else. +Do you want this one Alan? +Yeah. +Oh. +Alright then. +What number's that please? +Thirty two. +Thirty two, thank you. +Mum +Oh you've got a little erm ulcer on there. +What number's she having? +Forty four. +Okay then. +What is it. +It's a little ulcer that you've got on your lip. +Thank you Laura. +Thanks Tracy. +Mum. +Yeah. +Oh did I put the second last week? +My tropical fish. +We don't know what's in there do we? +What's in there? +I was hoping I'd be able to get in without bothering. +Oh we've had that one. +I have singing fishes. +This one's got to be, got to be mended. +Okay . +What about this one? +Oh this looks fun. +Take in turns to throw the dice. +Subtract the number you throw from ten and, that looks fun. +Yeah that looks our sort of thing doesn't it? +Shall we have a go at that one? +Yes mummy. +Which one would you like to do? +Have a look and see what you think. +And then we'll tell you why you can't do it. +Have you got Tim asleep? +Yeah, that's why he's in a pushchair. +It's erm mother's day assembly next Thursday. +Erm Friday, so we'll all be sitting in the hall. +Alright? +So do come. +sorry. +Oh. +Bye Sarah. +Okay, no I haven't done. +This one. +Mm? +Mum, this one. +What do you fancy, this one? +Let's have a look. +Oh I reckon you've had that one Chris. +We haven't. +Is it any use? +right in the beginning? +No. +I don't think so. +We haven't had this one. +Oh Timothy might enjoy that . +Timothy might enjoy this one. +Mm. +Apparently Timothy will enjoy that one. +You'll enjoy that one. +That's more complicated. +It's a hard one. +You want this one? +Alright. +It's a bit naughty isn't it to have had such a good game and er +We're having this one so that we can play with Tim. +Twenty eight. +Twenty eight. +You'll be able to tell Timothy what to do. +Ooh. +Are you allowed to do that? +Oh you're allowed to tell him what to do. +Whether he does it or not is another issue isn't it. +Yes. +Right, what have we got in that bag there? +Have you got everything you need? +So we might see you on erm +Mm. +Wednesday? +Sounds like it. +Right lady +Oh dear. + +Don't take too many. +I only got I only got +No you didn't get. +Amy don't tip the +Come on not the whole packet out. +I'm not. +You just tip it carefully that will do for the time being and eat those first +I don't feel we've done a lot this half term have we? +Pardon? +I don't think we've done much this half term. +Much? +Not supposed to be to +unclear +unclear +We're on the next tape +Oi! +Jenny's didn't come out very well. +Didn't she? +No couldn't really hear very well. +Will I listen? +No not now I'm going to put it away. +Well it's not so easy when they're further away is it? +That'll have a nice sound with you eating crisps +Thank you. +Amy! +Behave! +Yeah exactly. +You have a nice cough +Mm mm. +Thank you +Well if daddy goes back up to work tomorrow I think we might go out to London. +You've booked Taff haven't you? +We've got +I wasn't really expecting to go into Jenny's. +No I suppose she felt pretty awful about not inviting Amy to the party. +Yes. +She might do. +Pardon? +I don't think she expected a present +Why why didn't she? +Well I think that Amy didn't go to Lucy's party I think +Pardon? +I think if you didn't go to Lucy's party I don't think. +Jenny was expecting a present. +From what's come in. +She looked a bit surprised didn't she? +Yes hmm +You know she'd rather do Chimneys or something tomorrow than London Zoo. +Pardon? +We rather go to Chimney's tomorrow than to London Zoo. +Oh. +I was asking. +Would you? +Probably. +Yeah. +to London Zoo. +Don't you like London Zoo particularly? +I don't Clare doesn't really like going round all the creatures do you? +What? +Would you like go . +Might not be right. +I would quite like to go to Chimneys actually. +It's not too far aways. +No it's easier. +But it's easier if you got tact. +Why +It's easier if you've got tact tomorrow +Mm Why? +Well because tac doesn't finish till till half past twelve. +Don't you got one of those +Don't know how they've decided whose has got one. +Decide what? +Could be just our way. +I don't know how they decided who's got one +Do you think it's worth twenty five pounds? +That must be it +You can't get too many people doing it unless Marks and Spencers free. +I don't think Marks and Spencers will give them free. +Twenty five pounds? +Did you like Amy's suit? +Not very much but I +Do you know what you can wear underneath it? +I think you're supposed to wear a T-shirt. +It's a bit cold. +Hmm. +I was just reading that. +Peter. +Huh? +Who did Eve have on her plate Amy? +Mrs Tiggywickle. +Who did Eve have on her plate? +Plate? +Mrs Tiggywinkle. +Mrs Tiggywinkle did she? +I was telling her what it said. +You haven't done any +Pardon? +You haven't done any reading have you? +You'd better read a chapter before we go out this afternoon. +He's got a musical test which says don't they're tired they're tired and then he said the pig says I'm not and then the people said Oh dear and then he said I'm hungry and then they said they're hungry and he says I'm not and he's sleepy . +I don't like story. +She read that to me. +It was quite easy um I read it again to her . +It was quite a good reason really. +Well I think Jenny's um sort of +We've never had hardly seen it before because I haven't lawn in that book before have I? +You haven't had what? +Lawn. +Ah. +The word you mean? +Yes. +Ah. +Perhaps not. +Pardon? +Oh is that in her book? +You could read it could you? +Mm. +But if I just she said lawn so I knew what it said. +But she made it first than me. +I've been through quite a lot. +Mm. +Yes you're doing quite well +I've got two +Said long words like that kept using very long words. +Like I shall excavate this house. +I hope not. +you aught to use long words. +That's probably what they want to know. +Which words you do use. +Can't remember +In conversation. +You going to take it to Jenny's with you tomorrow? +I suppose so. +I suppose we'd better take it wherever we go. +Yeah you can just about it . +They can hear what you're saying now. +Yes I can hear everyone. +It only picks +Hello! +Stop it. +No. +Stop it. +Not, well just behave. +You shouldn't have done. +Doesn't make it any better if you messed about it picked up what I said but it didn't pick up very well what Jenny said. +Yep. +But what I said. +Don't know. +I didn't listen listen to +A bit better +I think it takes you forty five minutes to listen to it all back again. +Yeah. +Is Jenny quite happy at the moment she's going to +I don't think she's much choice has she? +She hasn't got much of a choice for what? +Where Amy's going or you've got to go there and you think of the positive When's their they've had their open day or is there another one? +Don't know. +Thank you. +Don't know quite what that was. +I should think that was +What? +I should think they'll have another one nearer the end of term. +Oh yes. +people. +She only has other people to her house. +Well she only had a small party didn't she? +Yes she's only got that small house. +It's tiny +Oh Amy you don't even like them. +I am only looking at them. +Come on eat up we want to get out. +Quarter past two +Not no nasty day. +What does that say? +No it's not a nasty day. +It's a better day. +No what that says? +Oh those are those turtles. +Pardon? +Nintendo. +Oh I thought it said no +No there not there the turtles. +Are they? +Yes. +What's Nintendo? +It's a super mummy . +Nintendo is like a pocket computer. +Oh is it? +Huh. +You know better than those um ones that has got you know? +They cost seventy pounds. +Lucy's had her er +What's that say? +car. +Sony. +That's who makes it. +Well he's got one like that. +Hmm. +Red. +Hmm. +Not the colour I would have chosen. +I think I would have chosen black. +Would you? +Hmm. +Mm. +Out of the other ones white if there was I would have chosen white. +I would have chosen red. +Don't you like red? +No not much. +I like yellow that's my second favourite colour. +Nice bright colour. +my favourite's that +That's a lovely pink isn't it? +Mm. +I like that pink I like peach as well +That's a nice colour Everyone's got a favourite colour I wonder what daddy's is. +Don't know really. +Might be black. +Ask him. +Mummy that's like an +Yes not with your mouth full +Can I have another cutlet? +That's your third. +I know. +So you'd like a film for your camera. +Yes please. +I should think that Mr Staton would put it in for you wouldn't he? +Yeah. +Um +There's a competition for the best photograph +Oh well you'd better take your camera then. +Amy you can have that other little one if you like. +Would you like that for your holiday? +Yes please. +I'd like it now for my . +Hmm you may have that one. +Pardon? +You may have that one. +Pardon? +You can have that one. +Are we having a boat rip around the needles? +Hmm. +I might take one of the needles. +Well take a few photographs. +Yes +I mean don't forget. +You're usually hopeless +All right. +I'll put it in my back pack. +And take a photograph of everybody as you set off. +Mr Staton always takes a group one so if you say just a minute I'd like one too. +I'll get pictures of Mrs. just about to fall in the sea or something +Just about what? +And then Mr Staton asleep on the lake or something +You'd be lucky to find one of Mr Statton asleep +I don't think he's going to go to sleep while he's in charge of thirty of you. +Then here you are just +Is he in charge? +He's in charge, yes. +He's Head Master. +What comes if someone's ill? +I suppose there are bound to be a couple of people. +I don't know. +Maybe if you really are they'll send you home. +On your own? +No. +One of the staff would have to come with you. +Not that one of the that couple. +Yeah +You can't ring the doctors on the Isle of White. +Oh if you have been really ill +I should think the one's whose most vulnerable is Clare Montgomery. +She's just had her operation. +I'm surprised she's still going on it so soon after. +She gets a cough. +If by any chance she catches it off me she's going to have a really sore throat isn't she? +I think she wants to go. +I don't think anybody wants to be left behind. +take more crisps. +No I think you've had enough. +Oh I've only had a few. +I didn't have many did I? +No. +Don't know really. +I'm quite looking forward to it. +You know er you get your packet money each day and you can buy things. +But I'm not over keen on nuts. +Good fun . +I think if Mr. Statton says you'll be so tired would you like to go and get your reading book and get a hanky and +You get prizes afterwards so that er one had the best kept room and another one +Can you get a hanky? +Where have you come? +About five are the best people to live with. +You might get one from happiest. +Happiest me? +If I wake up with ear ache that's +There isn't any? +Aren't there? +No. +Is the box not in there or is the box empty? +The box is empty. +Is it? +Hmm hmm. +I'd better get another box. +I'd better get some from Boots then I think. +Yes because I've run out. +Well you read a bit to Clare while I go and get the +next. +Next morning on the shore was so happy that he wanted to jump. +All right come along Lindy he shouted. +Let's explore. +I'll race you to the stone wall +To the stone wall by run as fast as I could one one but Lindy did not mind. +Your legs are longer she said are you argon +Aught +Aught to win. +Let's explore either the water said Bill. +At first Lindy did not want to go over the wall. +There might be wild animals on the other side +Right let's +she said. +Come on then here's a hanky. +I'm not afraid said Bill Boyd. +I'm not afraid of anything +Good big blow good big blow +Can I have another puff +Might be. +Thank you. +Girls are not afraid either said Lindy. +Pardon me. +When she come out after them. +Once David got off off the wall +There y'are +they made the best discovery. +Good girl. +Of all there was a pond. +It was a sa so big that it was almost a lake. +Trees and bushes grew right down to the very edge of it. +You could +Friend's house . +Pardon? +I've got a friend's house on the back +stand on the bank and +No I've done that +throw little stones into the water to make +It's here +rings and splashes +You recorded it at Jenny's +Oh I've done that one. +Mummy! +Yes. +Good girl. +Um what did they make their best discovery what's their best discovery? +The pond I think. +There was a pond. +So what shall I do now +Discovery . +They made the best discovery of all. +Hmm +Where? +Just leave it at the moment I'm trying to here if you can't +If you can do it yourself do it but I'm trying to hear Amy read. +It looks deep said Lindy. +How deep deep do you think it is. +It's deep deep +It's deep enough +enough to swim away +It's deep enough to swim in +in. +Answered +answered and deep enough for a boat if we had one. +If we had a boat we could row across to the island of a picture +for for a +for a picture +For a what do you think. +Row across the island for a what might they have +Pic +Pic nic +Picnic +nic. +Picnic +I couldn't see where it was. +Picnic. +Yes. +The island was a small one in the this has got a heart middle of the pond I couldn't find the right line that's why I did that. +All right +It had all trees on it and looked as if it had been made for picnics. +Hmm hmm +The children looked all along the bank to see if they could find a boat. +Suddenly they heard a quiet noise +I should think +A quiet noise. +Lindsy jumped with fright. +Fright. +What was that Bill? she whispered. +Bill did not answer +For a moment. +He was frightened himself +Though though +though he did not want Lindy to know that they listened until they heard a noise again Then Bill laughed. +Oh Lindy you were were +You were +Afraid he said. +Girls are always afraid nothing +Of nothing +Girls afraid +Girls are always afraid of nothing +nothing. +It was a +It was only +Only a only frogs. +They must be at the end of the pond. +Let us go and see then said Lindy. +There might be some tadpoles too. +The children went to on tip toe but the frogs stopped singing. +Can I go can I go and play with tennis trainer? +Yes if you like +Where is she going to play +Could you open my greenhouse and put it on that +Where's she going to play going to play tennis? +Can she she can't play it on her boat oh yes that thing. +Hmm +The water was warm and suddenly +And shallow +and shallow. +There water lilies +water lily? +leaves spread +Hmm hmm +spread themselves like green plants on the water +green plates +Pardon? +plates +green plate. +They're plants I thought +A bit like +No plate. +Very like it. +Like plants. +Hmm. +On the water and bog +Mm good girl bog +bog plants. +Does that say plants? +Grow along +All along +I forgot. +I thought that was that word. +Croak croak croak one frog began to croak all by himself. +Others +Hm hm +Enjoyed +Joined +Join +Others joined +in +in +from all over the pond until they made a long chorus croak croak croak they are saying. +A frog climbed on to a lily leaf quickly +quite +quite oh where am I? +Quite close to Lindy and Bill. +His eyes stuck out from his head like little squab knobs +that's difficult. +Knobs. +It's a silent K. +Knobs of I thought he was a squab knob +Yes it's a bit difficult that one. +It's a silent K you know like knees knobs. +Cob knobs I said. +Knobs. +Start from where it says little knobs he +Okay. +He looked could look at the children over +Although +Although he were needed +Although they were nearly +Nearly behind him Were him +Watch him. +Watch him Lindy said Bill and see if you can see if you can see his +Tongue +tongue shoot out or +Shoot out our +Our teacher told us that frogs toot +tongues +tongues are stick +sticky +sticky at the ends. +That is why they can catch flies so easily with them. +How would you like to catch your dinner by putting out your tongue? +I would +I wouldn't +I wouldn't like it at all answered. +Why wouldn't she? +Would you like to catch your dinner by putting your tongue out to catch it? +No +No +Why? +I wouldn't like it at all answered Lindy +Lindy. +But it must be nearly dinner time now. +I do feel hungry. +We better go home then said Bill but we shall come back here again. +We may be able to find a boat next time. +There. +The apple orchard. +Your reading's getting a lot better I think. +You're doing very well. +They are long chapters. +I think that was quite enough. +It's a long book. +A hundred and twenty eight pages. +I know +Hmm +What's that one? +Well of course Miss MacDonald wouldn't have wouldn't mind you to keep a book for quite a long time. +No. +No it's all right. +Right let me get cleared up and then we'll go into Bromley. +You're going out with Clare? +Let's just have a look at your erm camera. +What do you need your money for? +Nothing. +Nothing. +You haven't made your bed. +I know. +I haven't really had time. +Neither of you have thrown either of your old hankie boxes away. +Amy keeps getting mine out of the bin. +Well erm throw them in the bin down outside erm you got a two hundred. +Why why can you put it on different things? +Well you can have different fims . +I thought it might be easier to get you what you've got in already you've still got tea round your mouth and have you cleaned your teeth cause they weren't very clean um you could take Tom's midnight garden with you +Oh you're not going in your earrings +Oh mummy I never wear them otherwise. +Well you won't wear them. +You'll take them off. +I don't think they're very suitable. +They're for playing. +What? +They're for playing in. +Not really suitable for come on throw your dirty empty tissue boxes away. +Come on put your coat on then Amy. +See if we're locked up. +No. +Mummy. +What? +wear the jackets with all the badges? +Yes I should think so. +Where is it? +Do you want to wear that? +I'm not sure. +Can I wear this then? +Erm +No it wasn't Mum. +It's not there. +Is it in your bedroom? +Pardon? +Is it hanging up in your bedroom? +I've looked +Nice little purse. +Yes it's a nice little purse. +Don't break the coat hanger. +I've got to take the purse to the Isle of White. +cause to put your money in. +You get two pounds a day . +You can save it +What on earth did you put in your pockets? +Oh goodness knows. +Well does it fit you? +The arms are quite big but that doesn't matter +I'm not sure that it's mildly clean. +Pardon? +I don't know that it's terribly clean. +That's the Isle of White. +Pardon? +Badge. +You've got the badge on the arm. +Where? +The Isle of White. +Oh it fits you all right. +Mm +Din it? +Oh you shouldn't do it right up at the top. +Why? +American? +Yes I don't know go on. +We seem to have a lot of dirty tissues and stuff. +There not mine. +Hmm I don't know whose they are. +Have you got my hankies? +Oh I've just thrown a whole load of screwed up ones out. +Go and get a few more. +Remind me we must get some handkies. +Are you putting a coat on Clare or are you going like that? +Let's hope we can find a parking space. +Right. +Is that everything. +So you want a film and you want a back pack. +And you want a +I don't need a very big back pack because all it's got to carry is my +It's got to carry your lunch hasn't it? +My lunch and my camera. +And a box and a +Fits me doesn't it? +If I put my camera in the front +Come on. +The coat does fit me. +Yes it looks rather nice. +You've got France on it as well. +Pardon? +France and you've got all your American ones. +No France here. +Well it says jeans and a jumper or trousers and a jumper. +I mean it it well no it says thick trousers and a warm cardigan or a jumper. +Erm I mean I should think you want to take some shorts in case it's warm do you. +Yeah. +You going to take your white trousers? +Your new white ones? +Are you going to wear those at the disco? +Yes. +Rather than your black ones? +Yes. +I thought you could probably take both. +I don't think it's been very erm generous with out of school wear but you can change when you get back. +I think you'd better take your Scots Park jumper and your red cardigan in case you manage to spill +yes +all your dinner down your Scotch Park jumper or something +Yeah +because you haven't got two. +Well you've got that one that Daddy put on in the wash and washed too hot. +Yeah +I think we might have a job parking. +Now the problem is going to be finding any where to park. +He's just he's just got one a long way out though right looks as though we've either just missed one and they Oh no they are just coming aren't they?just missed one there +There's one +Oh just missed one Oh no he's he's going in. +that car's going to be told off. +It is +No. +Ah there's one can't see one any better can you? +No. +Not the not the easiest place to get into but still +Aren't we close up? +Yes we'll park can you? +No. +only stand by. +This way where good job we've only got as minute. +Pardon? +I don't think I'll get daddy's in it +No a bit bigger seems to me if we'd moved up a bit we would have had a bit more room. +exactly. +a large space here. +Pardon? +They haven't given me a very large space. +It's probably why it's left. +Right I think that Salisbury's is probably the best place for a back pack do you. +Shall we go there first? +Yes. +Do you want a new washing bag and a salon to take with you or are you not bothered? +Mm? +I've got plenty. +You can't take mine. +You can't have Amy's. +You've only got the one. +What? +Oh nothing. +I just thought you'd like a new one. +Oh right. +In that case. +All we've got to have is +Well I certainly wouldn't bother taking any shampoo if you can't have a hair drier. +Well Charlie'll have to so we can all wash our hair. +Well Charlie's not going. +Why is hers very long +Yes +She can sit on it can she? +Yeah easily. +It comes down to about here. +Hmm. +How often does Amy wash hers then? +What +How often does Amy wash +Every day. +Every day? +Oh gosh. +Oh careful. +It's getting worse this road. +Look at all this lot. +Yes what it say about four hundred? +It doesn't say anything. +Right where two hundreds.. +Three pounds twenty-six. +Can we afford one of those? +Hmm +There's the one with the flash waterproof stretch. +You were going to take on the ones we had last time. +So they are all four hundreds. +Hmm. +You get long +What? +You get sort of extra long +Hmm hmm they look quite big don't they?isn't it? +Yeah +those pictures. +No they should be the same. +Go through all the pictures. +I should like that one. +I think I should your Jenny's taking hers I should take your camera. +Mmm +I mean you've just got to be careful and not lose it haven't you? +Lose what? +Lose her camera. +Why doesn't she take that yellow one? +I thought you could have that. +Do you think I'm well enough for my trip +No. +I think we've got quite fit. +No it fits in a case. +Yes. +Yes. +That's the one +Green one? +What other colours is there? +There're aren't. +I will take the yellow one I think. +You've got the white one anyway. +You'd rather have that than the you know +Yes +Does this tooth Mum does this toothbrush fold up? +No it's in a case so you don't get +Does the boys something . +When you +When you want some soap hmm +Is there a toothbrush inside that +Hmm +thing? +She wants her soap and some tissues Erm I don't think you need teenage mutant hero turtles. +Why? +Well you need more that those. +What are those? +Those could be hankies. +Teenage mutant turtle hero hankies. +Don't you think you would be better having a proper size size box? +hankies. +Mutant hero turtles? +She won't Yeah. +You won't if you get a cold. +Shall I take two +Well er tissues anyway. +I think that tissue paper's thick. +Unclear. +Eighty-one p. +Well I think, I don't think there'll be enough for you for a week. +Er I should take a box +Yes it will. +You won't have all that much. +Could I take this one? +Yes all right. +All right. +Soap -camelia or rose? +Which soap do you want? +Camelia. +What's camelia? +Pink. +That was the one I had. +Orangey colour that one. +I need this one because I lost it. +I lent it to Bronwen. +You want that one too? +Yes +Well it's o do you want a new flannel or anything particular? +We need a new +Have you got a soap box? +Have ou got a box for your soap? +No that's a dish she wants a box. +Oh! +Right. +They're only a pound. +They're a pound. +Deary me! +Yeah. +Want that colour? +Or a pink one or a blue one? +One sort of flesh coloured. +Bit expensive aren't they? +Can make up one. +Amy have you seen my head shawl? +You haven't +Oh yeah oh look. +Those the ones as well. +No they weren't the ones. +Yeah they got bristles. +Maybe you'd like one of those. +this is a fish. +That's the best one +There's a fish one. +Well I should think the pink one look er hairbands apparently. +Come on then +No Amy. +Come on. +Pardon? +Buy one. +Why can't we buy one Mum? +Why can't we buy one? +You're you're all right for a hair brush then are you? +I'll take mine er +Oh mummy! mummy! +Yeah that's sure. +Ah this is it. +Mmm +Bright red Oh there're good. +I like the green one. +White do you think? +Yeah yeah. +Right that will do I think. +Right let's go and get this lot then. +That's all you need isn't it? +Go on then. +Oh we've still got next week if you here we are. +There's a queue here. +You need anything else +Hair conditioner Mummy. +Well we've got some hair conditioner. +Hair conditioner. +Yes I don't think we need any more at the moment Oh I know what I want. +I want some stuff for my nails. +nail varnish No ah. +Right right there's one here. +There's a hankie +When will +Well Amy I'll get you one another day hey? +We are just getting Clare what she needed to go away with. +What's that? +What's that? +A soap box to put soap in. +Otherwise everything will be tasting of soap. +Aren't you ? +No no no no no Amy Now yu can put them out if you like. +You wanted a er thing for your from erm Smith's didn't you? +Always on my mind +Oh I don't +Why that +What that thing through the +Let's have a look and see if there is some fruits or one +Those are mine. +What? +That's where she got these from. +This one is mine. +Sorry. +Happy Birthday. +No I don't want happy birthday do you? +Miss you. +Oh yes well that's not very appropriate is it? +Thank you. +No happy birthday that says. +I know. +I'm looking for +Let's see what that Oh that one there. +No the big one. +How much are these? +Erm that one. +Happy birthday. +where did you get it from? +There that would be +Why do you think we'll have to have one like that? +Well don't you think that's quite appropriate? +Hmm. +Hmm? +With the ballet shoes? +I'm cold. +Now is that better? +The ballet shoes are more appropriate don't you? +Mm mm. +She'll probably like that better. +Ballet shoes. +away Amy. +I like that one. +You like that one? +Hmm. +That's not funny Mum. +No I don't like I like that one better. +I like that. +No that one's bigger. +Pardon? +That's got bigger. +It's too expensive +I should get her the ballet shoes cause it was a ballet dancing that would be very appropriate and I'll get her some flowers. +Well why don't we give her flowers? 'Cause we've given her flowers. +I think she'd like the ballet shoes. +It was a ballet exam wasn't it? +That's that card that Rhionna gave me. +Yes. +Can I have one of that card? +Do they? +No well they had quite a cheap way I think they had to pay for it all themselves. +Well I don't think erm they had a lot of money. +Take this one? +No no you don't want a book to take with to read. +Yes we are allowed to take +Well yu can take your . +You gonna Tom's midnight garden or anything? +Or do you want to have look quick look. +I will. +I'm going to take something . +Mind you don't Goodness me! +terrible +I know. +No he wasn't they're being silly. +Careful! +No don't be silly Amy +Do you think that'll be enough? +Hmm +Sure? +Hmm. +They're all the same. +Aren't they? +Yes. +Yes. +Eight sheets same as that. +Hmm. +I don't think you're gonna take more notes than that in a week do you? +No. +No. +all right? +Yeah +That'll do you. +I don't think you'll need anything else I think it's still going round Here you are hold that. +It's still going. +It's still going. +I think all click Oh that was the sort of thing . +Why won't you let me do that? +Why won't you let me do it? +That's quite a nice present isn't it? +That is a pen. +Yes. +A cartridge pen. +That's a ball point pen and that's a cartridge pen +Mummy . +This is only one pound ten p. +Yes but you don't need another one of those. +Well mummy mummy mummy. +What? +want one of these. +You don't need one either. +Well Clare's got lots. +Well she could give you one of hers. +Yes. +Mum but I don't like Clare's. +What you want a Tigger one? +Pardon? +You want a Tigger one do you? +Mm +Well what you going to put in it? +But er I want +What about that one? +a nice one. +Two twenty five +two twenty five +Those are more Tigger cartoons +There're good. +Hmm they're quite nice. +because I need pencil cases. +Mm. +I've never had that before. +Who were you thinking of giving it to? +Clare? +Hmm no I was just having a look. +A bit more than we usually spend. +my new pen. +Mummy . +Yes there's a few around though aren't there? +Yes. +Not one that I want though. +Right. +Oh dear. +Thank you. +Clare let's have your thing over here quickly. +Just get that come there's no body Clare can I have that. +No! +That. +You've got plenty of rubbish you can use one of the ones you've got You've got a cartridge inside. +Right we'll get something. +Well come on then +Can I have five pence Mummy? +Here Let's have a look. +Are they washable. +All right? +That wasn't too long. +You can get double. +And she has double ones was for bigger ones. +Right. +We'll have to go and queue up then. +Oh Clare! +That's permanent that's permanent blue black. +You haven't got the same. +I want a blue washable as well. +That's nice wrapping paper isn't it? +Hmm. +I don't like it at all that much. +Pardon? +I don't know that I like it all that much. +Sorry. +Yes yes she just clipped I like that's nicer with the teddy bear. +Do you want to have a piece of that for Deborah? +No I'm not buying any more. +You have you have pinched +I can +You have got about ten pencil cases okay. +I am not buying any more pencil cases. +They are Amy's. +I haven't got I haven't got +I am not buying any more pencil cases. +No you go and take it back. +You've got a lot of pencil cases. +Come on then Amy. +You want to give that to Deborah? +Hmm. +Hmm? +Ah +You can take that tin that you got in er you can take that tin as a pencil case that you got pardon? +What? +You have got if you've got one. +oh they've all got holes in them. +Oh so I can throw them away can I? +Yep. +Well then why haven't you thrown them out? +They've all got two of them. +Well you should have shown me before. +You you've throwed them away first before you buy any more +Yes. +Queen mother. +Right come on then. +Where was that last one? +I think, umm we looked in Boots didn't we, they had cheap ones, but they were all black. +Might like . +Get one from Marks and take it back after wards. +No, yes, I don't think I need chocolates, I don't think I need chocolates. +I thought your going to give her some flowers? +I like flowers. +Oh they've definitely have some, I don't think there awfully cheap. +I think erm, lets have a look in the shopping mall cos I think there's a sort of bag shop there Caroline said. +Where'd you meet her? +Just down here. +. +This is a nuisance this is. +. +I don't know otherwise. +I thought Salisbury's would of had loads Will have a look in a Army & Navy otherwise It's in here I think, oh I don't know whether C & A's would have any Now then, watch out for, I mean I think there's must be a logic shop or something. +I think that's where Caroline said we go for a cake. +Oh here I should think where these banks are. +Yeah. +I mean there's loads of bags like that, let's have a look. +It's all there've got. +Here's back packs. +Mum. +No, no, she's got to have something that goes on here back. +Oh it's a bit cheaper. +Price six ninety nine I think. +Where? +Eight ninety nine. +Well we've got . +It's better isn't it? +That one. +Nine ninety nine. +Like that one. +Nine ninety nine. +Yes, I quite like that one. +school. +Which one? +That one. +One like that has she? +Yeah. +Red one. +. +I think you better put them back where you found them don't you? +Where'd they come from? +They come from there. +Where? +Now that's more your that's more what you could . +There's A there . +That's what ah. +That's more what you can do with poppet one like that. +No,Clare like that one . +Do we need any thing else?. +No, not really. +This is something quite nice. +Oh it's pretty. +That's four to six.. +This is four to six. +Yeah, they always do them very long don't they? +Yeah. +You could do more with a nine to ten, eh nine to twelve. +This is quite long as well. +That's three to four. +Three to four. +It's still too long for me. +I should think this one's your size. +Oh label . +She like that +Ooh. +She like that one Amy? +. +. +Hm, yeah. +I don't mind. +Well you could probably do with that more than hm trousers. +You could probably do with a sun dress more than . +Oh that one look's a bit to bit to tight doesn't it? +No, haven't got any twelve's,with a twelve. +Right, that doesn't really suit me does it? +Right, let's go and get Amy's collage set that she wants. +What? +Did you say collage set? +Hm, hm, hm . +That what you want, your collage set? +Army & Navy the bit of it and a that's all Then I'd like to look in Marks, Amy Early Learning. +Early Learning have all these lovely things that you can play with. +That's my . +Hm Right let's see if we can . +Early . +Come on then,you. +Yeah, cos it's called Early Learning Centre. +Hm, hm, quick. +Learning Centre. +Then I want to go to Marks. +. +Hm, I was a bit disappointed with that dress. +I wonder if it looked better if it was a bit bigger. +Do you have . +To tight . +. +What the orangey colours? +Yeah, they don't . +Oh I quite, I quite like those. +I thought they were unusual. +. +I didn't think I like the cut of it very much or, I think it was to tight. +There started making erm tighter I think. +Oh Amy, sorry, wait. +You don't push in. +I think your getting a bit big for this . +It used to yes left handed, Blue one. +Oh. +Can I have some? +Why do you need some more? +Yeah. +Right, I suppose so.. +Shall I go and pay for them . +Amy. +What time is it? +Half past four, so I don't want to be too much longer. +I don't know, is that what you want? +Whoops I don't know. +They won't be all for it, Amy is that what you want? +Hm. +. +What's that. +That's sewing. +What do they give ya? +How can you sew it? +Well you give you the, this. +What age? +Can I pay for this? +Well, will pay for them all together . +. +Are those the only two you get? +Yes, I think so. +Oh, you only get two. +I don't like those two . +Oh I don't know, but. +Oh come poppet, because I want to go to Marks, so what do you think? +One of these are . +Can you only do one? +No, you, you have to get some flowers in. +So there, they give you the flowers. +. +heavy. +They do it . +No, they just give you a press to press the flowers. +Is there only one? +Hm. +I thought you wanted the collage one. +I know, I didn't know there were these. +I like the . +How many do they give you in there? +Lots. +I think you just get the pieces of square's and erm, the thing and the ribbon and you sew them. +Sew it, but. +Would you want to think about it? +I don't think you need a jigsaw puzzle do you? +Oh Amy come on. +You have to do to that? +Oh that's just, that's just erm, beads. +There mostly there for children that are younger than you. +Oh, I see it there, what's that. +Do you have to write it? +Oh, why don't you make what you've got cos you've got a lot of things to make at the moment, and then come back and choose another time, hm. +Cos you've got sewing to do haven't you? +You started that little duck. +. +Hm, your a bit too young to do knitting I think. +Like to age on . +You've got the flower making one haven't you?. +Oh yes, I've . +That isn't very easy is it? +It's a . +Hm. +Hm. +Colour . +We don't really want to colour in a jigsaw puzzle do you? +It's only colouring in. +No, I make them fit. +Yeah, well you got to have a, you've got to have some flowers and you just put them between that and leave them. +You could build happy birthday card. +Yes, but you've got to just leave the the thing, come on I think they want to close, and I want to get to Marks, so do you not really want the collage kit at the moment, you've got collage kit's haven't you? +Hm. +. +Pardon. +I have got a lot of collage. +Yeah. +Well leave it at the moment. +. +Hm, well you've got a, you've had a lot for your birthday haven't you? +No,. +Oh, we, no, I'm not just, come on let's find the scissors and the glue spreader. +Do you want me to take a book, and then you can choose at home? +Hm. +Yes. +Right, come on then let's have these and. +Painting? +That painting you haven't done yet have you? +No,. +No. +. +So you wanting to have a mooch, do you want to have a quick look at tennis rackets? +Well I don't know whether were going to get one now, cos I haven't really got a lot of time. +Oh , the cars are still coming, the cars are coming now, I forgot about them. +. +I forgot the cars were coming down the road. +Got to go across to that Olympus, right shall we come on quickly. +. +I dunno, cos I forgot the road was open, huh. +Ah, I think I like this one better don't you? +Yeah. +Twenty two pounds. +I'll pay you back. +Well I don't think we'll get one at the moment. +I will pay you back, I promise, as soon as I get payed, I give you the money back. +Well I don't think we can buy one quite as quickly as that. +Why? +Well, cos that's a lot of money just to spend isn't it? +Is that a lot lighter than. +Yeah . +Is this, one like this? +. +Well if you don't do any thing else tomorrow, you could go and have a look in erm, Worpington. +That shop there. +Yeah,. +Well I don't know, will see. +Come on then Amy. +. +Think you have to clear that with dad first. +Hm. +It's my money. +I know, but I want to see how much there worth, so there about, see if we can get one for less than twenty pounds can't you. +Why, they get heavier. +The heavier they are the . +Oh right, let's go quickly across to Marks. +Aren't supposed to do that. +They look really nice those shoes. +I don't like the colours. +Mummy I don't really like those shoes. +Don't you?. +I don't like the colours there to dark. +Yes, I thought they might be quite useful for the summer, they don't seem to have any erm . +Do you like these . +They do dark colours . +Do you like these sort of doesn't it? +I don't, these are nice colour, I like them. +Yes, well I another pair . +Pardon. +You like these better? +Yeah, there nice. +There's a pair of fours. +There's a pair of fours. +You like those better Clare? +Yeah. +No. +I do. +No. +No. +What you like those better? +I do. +Don't you? +Hm don't know really. +There's a pair of fours. +Take a pair of . +Hm, quite like the white ones I think I probably like the white ones better Am's, let's have the white ones. +Can you take that one off, cos that one . +Well there's a pair of four, right, let me, let my ones that I've got. +I didn't want the dark ones. +No, I don't. +There too dark. +They did do them in white, but they don't seem to have them here, I only saw one pair, they weren't my size the other day. +. +Right, let's just have a look at this other dress. +Daddy's stuck this on and it's not even right the way round. +Stuck what on? +His drove my car and the, where the gears where, came off. +Who did? +Daddy. +Without a . +He had . +There are. +You could of given me a little bit more room. +. +Well if that car in front has not pulled up quite so far this way, I would of got out a little more easily. +. Ah. +We've got a lovely . +Yes, well he could of gone a bit further back, it wouldn't of mattered to him. +. +Any way, never mind, were out. +Now I've got to turn around. +I don't think I'm going to buy you any thing else or else this holiday's costing me a fortune. +. +I think you can manage with your thin anorak and probably your thick one. +. +Well that's right, I mean were see what the weather's like. +. +Before . +. +Oh yeah. +. +That'll have to be quite useful for your holiday in France and every thing ain't it? +Yes. +What on earth he . +What a back pack? +Don't that I was over impressed with Tammy Girl, were you? +Hm. +What's Tammy Girl? +That shop that we went in when we had to go down stairs . +Tammy Girl . +Na, I think it's only girl's. +What's Tammy Girl? +That's the shop that . +No, no. +Oh yeah, I know . +I think a lot of erm. +. +I think a lot of your age go there. +Yeah, I think . +Yeah. +. +I didn't like the stuff for, it's very garish, I mean I didn't like Amy's bathing costume very much, did you? +No, but, you know,I like,. +Yeah. +But I quite like her shell suit, there quite nice colours. +Yeah. +There's a lot of those in C & A's. +. +Yeah. +She keep . +I doubt it. +I should hope so, they were quite expensive, one pound sixty eight. +Dear. +How much were . +I can't remember. +My . +Yes, there left handed ones, hm. +I've taken one pair up to the tree house and now I can't find any up there. +Oh. +. +Oh well I bought all these stupid bent ones, there not very . +Aren't they? +No, they don't hardly cut paper. +They don't cut any thing else. +Well I don't think those I'll cut any thing but paper, you'll have to get . +Yes they do, they cut a lot of string . +Well sellotape then. +They cut oh they cut sellotape, and they does cut string. +Well if you need another pair, next I go I'll get you a pair of. +They cut string. +Oh. +I don't think they quite my other pair. +What your silver ones? +Yeah. +Where'da get them from? +Early Learning. +And they cut something . +Why have you lost something, you have?. +No, don't worry. +They don't seem to have silver ones. +I bought two pairs. +Yeah, don't lose. +. +Right. +I've only got one pairs of steel. +Oh you haven't, you've got lots of little silver ones. +Can't find them. +Oh, well, there around somewhere. +. +I know where there is some, in my collage . +Collage box. +Yeah. +. +Well, you don't need to leave a pair of scissors in there, cos. +I was just thinking that the dinner's probably only just come on, I didn't quite know how long, how late we be huh. +Nice cup of tea any way, do my ironing I suppose +Shall I ask daddy to get me a label for my . +Huh, you can try. +Well you can do one with the erm, with the little thing. +I don't need to take scissors or any thing . +No, no. +What about some . +No, don't think, don't give you any of the. +You got my erm. +I think you'll need a coat hanger for that, oh, any down here. +I'll go upstairs and get a coat hanger when you. +Haven't got, I haven't got any. +On the spare bedroom bed I should think there's some. +Rfff, you pull. +Aah, it's white isn't it? +And wiggle it a bit. +, you'll have to be able to do it or else you won't be able to clean your teeth. +I think you'd better make your bed. +. +Hm.. +It's in a mess my . +If she don't put it, if you don't take it right down then it comes out. +Oh does it? +She just put it like that, but it's not . +It's not, oh that's alright. +Just say if she's soaked some stuff written on it. +Yeah . +Little fish in my erm thingys. +Yeah. +Cos that thing that normally sticks out the top. +I don't it says you've got to have a cagoule. +I it did. +Hm. +. +It might say preferably. +Right school sweatshirt, tee shirt, skirt, dress, casual trousers, jeans, warm jumper. +Changes of underwear, socks, shoes, trainers, night dress, carpet sleepers, washing kit, towel, hair brush, cagoule shoulder bag. +Cagoule and a shoulder bag. +No,I, I think they . +Cagoule . +I think they mean a back pack, warm jacket or coat, in-expensive camera and film I think they mean a back pack. +You could of had a shoulder bag. +What's that?. +Well, one that goes on your shoulder . +They won't mind a will they? +No, I think that's what they told you to take Oh, how often you expect me to write to you. +Why? +You've got to take some stamps. +If I send one to grandma, one to you and Amy, and then I'll write one to grandma Lincolnshire, but I'll won't send it off, it'll be to expensive won't it? +Send it off here couldn't you? +If I send one to grandma and granddad, if I send one to you then send to . +Yes, that's alright. +So it'll be a, take about five .. +If you wish . +There will be . +I don't need, look. +No, mummy, I'll give look I . +Tidy it up then please. +. +Right, I think I'll shall do some. +.. +Yes, I'll shall put it on the spare bedroom bed, not that there's a lot of room on there, but still. +I think you've just cost me a fortune today. +Have I? +Take one of those boxes of tissues and use tooth brush, tooth paste. +What, got some soap have you? +Yes, yeah. +Right, your tooth paste. +Thank you. +Right, these two can go up, oh that's Amy's soap. +Bored with it, so I'll it out every day. +Yes, right. +There's your film. +Ah thanks. +Right . +That's mine?. +Yeah. +Oh right. +There's your cartridges. +Do I need to take both packets? +I wouldn't think so, I can't think you'll get through ten cartridges myself, that seems rather excessive. +We can probably leave packing till next weekend can't we? +We can probably leave packing until next week end.. +. +Well I'll should take, I mean hopefully you won't have a cold. +What? +I should take a couple with you out of your box and erm, just take those ones. +I mean I hope you won't have a cold, so you shouldn't do. +Hey, come on what's the matter? +. +Well, alright, well look it's no good doing it if your just going to get upset. +What's the matter? +Well I can't leave it like this can I? +Shhhh, well look, that's very difficult to put on isn't it. +Yes, but when I put some back,back packed. +Well then your better putting it back to the back place first. +there as well. +Right, now you want to put that on again. +I know. +It's alright, cos it's very, that's very difficult . +I can do that holding the edge actually, have to hold the tall side. +Right, put them in the, doesn't even fit on very well. +Oh no,. +I can't see what I'm doing even. +I mean that's a silly place to put it Amy. +I can't find any where else to put it . +Well why don't you put it on the table or on the little table, it doesn't even fit on that shelf, does it? +It's too big. +You can't really have that and these plates on that shelf. +Oh ok, I'll have it on the little table, but I want you to do it, not me. +Alright, well. +It's always falling . +On the little table it'll fit, and you can put the cups . +That's what I said . +Cups and saucers on, well you can do that, look you can do that better than I can. +Here you are, there, it's on the little table, now you put the cups and saucers on it. +Ok, it doesn't matter they can stay . +Go on, you can do those better than I can. +That, that goes in the middle. +There, but your trying to balance something that won't even balance properly. +Where's the other cup? +I don't know, have a look in the kitchen, can't really see. +So is, your dolls house is alright now, mind the flex on the iron. +You shouldn't go that way, knock my iron off. +So your happy. +Mum . +Where are your what?. +Oh we took them all upstairs. +Pardon. +. +What your birthday presents, yes. +Pardon. +Your birthday presents are up stairs on your new shelves aren't they? +I know, I . +I must go through the spare bedroom and sort that out as well. +Why? +Do I have too? +No I must, cos there's some of your stuff. +I'm not, I've just tidied up my dolls house. +I see , jolly good. +. +Well that's cos he moved it wasn't it? +Yeah. +Bit of a problem, that made me cry didn't it? +That did make you cry, yes. +. +It did. +. +But still if you, you, otherwise when it's tidy you just leave it alone. +Pardon. +When it's tidy, you don't play with it . +I've stopped my traffic. +You've stop the traffic have you? +Pardon. +Oh. +Yes, it was at the back of the cupboard I think, I think I've seen it in there . +That's where I've . +It's, pardon. +I think I have seen it in there. +Why didn't you bring it? +Well, will, put it, put it into be washed tonight and then you can use it if you like. +Hm. +Alright. +. +Yeah. +She's awake, yes it's alright +I'll read a chapter to myself,. +Yeah. +. +I'm not gonna play . +Oh alright, you tell me if there's any words you don't know +does that say . +Sure. +. +Yes. +I thought it were fair, but I read the next bit What's this one? +One day it's discovered the pond. +One day then they discovered the old apple orchard, what does that mean? +It stretched. +Stretched right down . +. +. +Does that say being? +Behind. +Oh . +Oh gosh . +. +Chaffinch. +Little bird, it's a little bird. +That's a difficult word. +. +Hm. +. +Yeah, well brightening up a bit +Right, we'll go and home some lunch, dinner then shall we? +Let's just finished yet. +Pardon. +. +Pink. +. +Goes on a long time does it? +five, six, seven, eight, nine. +Oh that sounds a lot. +Right come on then I'll get you some dinner. +. +Right, would you, could you switch that off for me. +Haven't yet. +No the television poppet, I'll sort the oven out. +Right if you sent the table, I'll serve up the dinner. +Ok mum. +Right +. +Give Clare a shout, get my washing in as well. +Clare. +Yeah. +Dinner time. +Ok. +Well that was very quick. +Right, I'm hungry too. +Wash my hands . +Right +I used to get . +Yes, that's right, no, that's right, very good . +That's right for Clare. +Yes, that's right for Clare. +I don't know what time daddies coming in. +Pardon. +I don't know what time daddies gonna come . +His not going to get any food. +Well I was going to put him some dinner out and he'll have to heat it up again I think. +You can't put him knives and forks out. +No, well, he can get some out I think if he wants some. +I think I'll get the knives and forks out . +Well I've no id I wouldn't bother. +I mean I don't know when he's, he might not be in for another two or three hours, I don't, I really don't know. +I might find I've cooked him a dinner and he doesn't want it. +Bit difficult isn't it? +So you don't have to. +Well I've cooked him one, cos it's no good if he waltzes in in half an hour and says his hungry. +He could baked potato. +He could have a baked potato, I don't think he would have had very much all day knowing. +I don't think there's much food available where it, in this building site. +What's he having? +Well making, given him the same as us. +We'd give him a . +Hm. +Leave it, what do you do .. +Well I'll leave it out and he can do it on the microwave can't he? +Heat it up in the microwave otherwise he'll have to have it tomorrow. +. +Only goes up to a certain height. +Here, about up to here now. +Oh that's it the way it spreads out and then you can't see it.. +Do you take the back pack round with you these day. +Yes. +What you finished your work have you? +Not all of it. +Nearly or yes you have. +Nearly . +Got . +Did you manage that one radius of a circle? +I . +What can choose choice oh you do them from that paper you mean . +No, we've got two tests . +And I did, I've done one test and I'll do the other one tomorrow. +Right, well don't forget. +Ouch. +I'm sorry it is a bit hot, they've got hula hoops in there. +Yeah. +now. +Sshhh don't shout. +and I . +. +Yes, alright but. +with it. +Well couldn't, could she, could she just go back one page and let's us see what it was she wants. +It wasn't one page . +I want . +I think I've got listen I really don't think you need argue over it. +. +No . +No. +Stop it, I've got two now stop it. +Taken it away from me. +Goodness me, are you both so young that you can't even share any thing? +I would have thought you both grown out of those things any way. +. +There, that's good. +That's play mobile. +We didn't actually have much play mobile when I, when I went and looked. +We haven't got all that, we haven't got that. +You don't play with your play mobile. +Think just like looking. +The boat, you can't use it much because erm they every thing, they don't give you any thing do they? +And they don't give you any singles. +No. +Do they? +No. +And I have to down the water. +You'd better write one to Christine as well. +. +Uhum that little Polly Pocket. +Oh yeah. +And those . +Don't forget. +Flower making. +that's a good page cos there's the collage +. +I've never heard the enormous crocodile. +I've never heard it but . +I've never heard it, I don't know what happens. +What happens Clare? +. +story. +Did they? +Hm. i thought they don't. +There's the play bus jigsaw. +It's a bit like it isn't it? +Oh yes it is, yes. +Play bus. +Right, there's your Noah's Ark one. +I know it and that says it has all the right people in it hasn't it, it's got wobba. +Womble. +Womble. +Hm, Womble. +It's a clown. +That little person. +Oh. +The wobbler. +Womble is like a clown, Womble. +You don't know the play bus people very well do you? +No I don't. +one, Humpty Dumpty . +Oh can't read that, off to school. +Hey Diddle Diddle, Teddy Bear Tales. +Got a lot of bell ones. +No, I've only got one. +. +when you blow it. +. +Hm, they didn't have my naughty little sister. +No, they wouldn't of had it. +You haven't listen to that much. +Oh no. +What? +. +. +On your little window sill I think. +Is it? +I think so. +We have got that one. +What at school? +No at home. +Who has? +. +I, we've got that one like that here. +Yes we have. +One like it, not exactly like it, was Blue, like it. +Have you seen that with a microphone? +Hm. +Good isn't it? +N o t h e r s o n y . +Sony. +What's Sony mean mean? +You make. +Make. +Hm. +My first my first Sony. +Hm. +I think it's a tape recorder I think. +. +I like that one . +Hm. +What does that do? +It takes play. +Can you pretend to play? +I don't know what it does actually. +sound . +Do you put sounds on the tape? +You've got tapes, put sounds on it. +Oh no, only noises and things. +Oh. +. +Be the percussion instrument or animal noises to accompany tape being played, the animals sound like are delightful to young ears while the percussion band will appeal to older children who wish to begin beating time more acc- accurately. +Hm. +Hm that sounds quite good . +Quite good . +I could do were both starving, I've finished mine. +I wasn't starving. +I was What times daddy coming home? +I don't know. +. +I would hope he won't be to late or he'll be exhausted. +Mummy, what we got stuck to the cleaner we've got that. +Hm. +We've got one of those at school but it had a bus on it. +Oh.. +Kathleen got that one. +Has she? +Great Britains' . +Yeah, but she hasn't got the flags. +Oh. +Deborah's got one with the flags when me and Deborah tried to do them once, we couldn't do it. +It was so hard. +. +That was good. +. +There good aren't they? +Hm, remember that one. +Pardon. +I remember that one. +What? +Hm, that one. +Oh yeah, with still got that one . +Yes you might have . +Yes, we have somewhere . +We had it in the tree house. +Oh did you? +. +That's a good one isn't it? +That's a good counting one isn't it, it helps you count. +Can I have another . +Only up to ten Two, one. +Amy can you get on with your dinner . +. +. +Yes... +That's Postman pat. +Yeah. +Jigsaw puzzle. +Then they start jigsaw puzzle . +seen it? +No. +Must clean your things . +That . +All the books Noah's Ark. +. +The jolly postman. +The story of a digger. +Old Mac Donald had a farm. +It must be a song what. +Cheers a happy pig. +Can you change Marks & Spencers vouchers into erm cash? +No. +Can't you? +No. +Won't they take them back? +No. +Why? +I thought they would. +Don't no. +Why wouldn't they? +Don't know, got vouchers you've got to buy something with it, but that's not usually a great problem. +Pardon. +Not usually any great problem +Just eat this. +Right. +.. +Some what more than I was expecting to pay, but. +What nine ninety nine for the .. +I was thinking more of five pounds. +Five pounds, you wouldn't get a very good back pack for five pounds. +That was my. +Didn't know we wanted a very good back pack. +What was my . +Wouldn't of been more than five.. +Got that at the Isle of Wight didn't we? +Take it back,to go back to . +Well . +Huh, which boys? +. +Hey you plonk it down, what's in there that klonks? +. +. +We have peeled what off mummy? +What is a pack? +something. +Solid shape box. +Aah it's you will be careful, that will break. +washing bag. +Yeah. +Hm, that's what's clonking. +This will do with my cartridges. +Get another box of my cartridges. +There's nothing wrong with one of your pencils here. +No, suppose not. +Oh honestly.. +No, come on .. +Hm, hm, hm, hm, hm, hm. +. +What's the matter? +I said I remember . +Oh right, every bodies . +Oh very good. +Is that better, feel better now? +Hm. +How much pocket money do we get a day then? +I don't know. +Two pounds I think she said. +Well it was going to be a pound wasn't it, not two pounds that will be an awful lot. +No it was two pounds she said. +.. +She'll deal it out, you know, but, if were going to Alan Bay she'll give us enough money for a a sand thing,. +What's the matter? +It's a long time till I was hungry wasn't it? +. +just going to Palace Brook Castle, she's not really sure she might just give us a pound for erm. +She won't give you so much. +No. +Well, you'll all have the same so, I don't know any of them get's any ice cream . +. +. +At least I can buy one. +You don't want to spend your money on a ice cream. +. +Well it's probably the best way, then your all in the same dish. +Yeah. +You can see the difference when you go on the trip, some people are . +So what did she say? +hardly any. +So it's not very fair is it? +So the got this huge I want that, I always haven't got any money, don't they, s'not really fair. +Ricky got told off. +Erm Ricky erm, what do you do first, Ricky. +Oh Ricky, oh well Ricky's always getting told off . +By what? +He took a couple of I've just remembered this erm, he took ten pounds to you know the museum or somewhere. +. +. +He thought. +. +Yeah, that must of been it. +He bought a mug, no. +What. +Mug with a museum picture on it and he bought about ten post cards,when got back to school. +Why? +She what? +Told him off. +Why? +It probably wasn't his fault. +His mother shouldn't of sent him with so much money. +He said it was his money. +His going . +Don't think he lives with his mother. +Cos she's, cos she's. +Do him good. +Not quite sure what, he says erm, he was protected by Social Security, and it, and then they . +What's it mean by protected?. +It means protect them. +So Ricky has now left. +Is he going . +School, but he's still going on this trip. +Oh his left . +Oh. +Yeah. +What you just. +Michelle Bond isn't there any more is she? +I don't know, she hasn't been at school. +Has she left? +I don't know, Jenny said she thought she'd left. +no one 's heard any thing about it. +Well, I'm pretty su- . +Maybe she hasn't told her best friend that she was leaving. +I'm pretty sure that Matthew Paynes is still there. +Oh yes, I think so. +I've seen him, and I don't know why Michelle's moving, without his brother. +Michelle's, oh right, it's a different Michelle, no. +Michelle Bond, Lee Bond's sister. +Oh yeah she has left cos Lee's left, haven't they? +Cos they crossed him off the list register now. +Have you? +Yes, I have, Mrs MacDonald has . +.. +His been crossed off for ever,. +He hasn't and his name, his name of his house is his name is for sale. +. +He erm, he left school, he only told them the day before. +Who? +, do what his mum had phoned in about it. +. +By the way, they won't be coming to school any more, when from next term. +No tomorrow. +. It was a couple of days notice and they weren't to pleased about it. +And I'm sure that spoon What I want is a me Catherine and ,keep away from Matthew we don't like him, his a mossy old boots. +His bossy, his. +His a terrible, so we didn't go near him right through on the playing field, and then Katherine, I found to get, I sat, found a way to get them near Matthew and then Katherine said , I tickled him on the back, and I'd kept on doing that.. +I don't think we need to make any more buns yet. +Hm. +No, I think that'll last you a little while. +We'll make a cake though, like we do on Sunday. +Alright. +Yeah. +Ok. +What kind of cake, chocolate? +Hm, if you want. +I would like normal. +Oh we always have normal. +Erm, then, coffee. +Oh I don't like chocolate. +Don't you? +Not as much as a normal or coffee. +I've brought some stuff to make a lemon cheesecake, cos lemon's were reduced. +Hm, I'll make that for you then . +Yes. +A lemon cheesecake. +I won't eat it but, any way. +Don't you like it? +I don't like it. +Simply adore that one, chocolate bun, strawberry moose. +Haven't made one of those for ages. +No, I love strawberry moose, that's delicious. +Then it first it's strawberry moose, then it's erm lemon cheesecake, then it's chocolate biscuit cake. +Oh, I don't know my order, I don't. +What d'you like best mummy? +Oh I don't know. +I'm not sure what I like best, I seem to like quite a bit. +A lemon cheesecake , bun, strawberry moose. +Hm. +The trouble with strawberry moose is, it takes ages to make doesn't it? +I like strawberry moose's . +Beat it for ten minutes, that's it seems an awfully long time to just stand there and. +Oh. +Can't you beat it with the erm. +Hm, for ten minutes. +I'll do that. +It's worth it strawberry moose. +Over the gas. +Over the gas? +Hm, you have to beat it in a pan of boiling water. +What, just beat? +The egg yolks and the strawberries and the sugar. +Oh, there lovely mixture, to watching boiling water. +Hm, trouble is it tends to come over the top of the bowl.. +Ah. +. +I didn't know you put them, glass on gas. +No you don't, you put the saucepan with some water in it, you boil that and put the bowl mixture in in the saucepan. +Oh right. +Your just boiling water round the outside. +Hm, yeah. +What d'ya mean by put water on for boiling water? +You put your pan with some boiling water in and then you put the bowl with all the stuff in on top. +I just thought it was grass. +In the pan . +No, glass. +Oh glass, I thought you said grass,. +What happens if you put boiling water on glass? +Nothing, depends what sort of glass it is. +If you pour boiling water on ordinary glass it will probably crack. +What, what's on there the glass . +Yes. +If you fill a milk bottle with boiling water I would think it would crack, might do. +And a cup? +Pyrex is alright. +What's Pyrex? +That's my bowls are made off. +Is that real glass or is it? +I don't know what they do to it, but it's a stand the temperature much better. +Is it still glass? +Pyrex. +It's glass of a sort, but I don't know what, I don't know what they do to make it much more heat resistant, you can put it in the oven. +Can you? +Oh yeah, that casserole tops Pyrex. +Is it? +I thought that was plastic. +If that was plastic it would melt. +No. +In the oven. +Well what you put in the oven ? +You can't stick it in the oven that's plastic. +Nothing! +The oven is made of plastic. +No it's not, it's made of glass and metal. +Oh. +It's not made of plastic. +Oh Clare. +Oh Amy, what. +Oh don't really Gemma. +Oh she's ever so slow tonight. +I don't want to . +What's one of them? +A cake. +What's that +Is one of those. +A cake . +Yes your exceedingly slow tonight, even slower than usual. +Don't pull a face. +I'm not. +I'll give you who's not . +I'm not ok .. +Your not going to get a cup of tea, I gonna drop it. +pet. +My first animal was a . +Come on it's ten past it's late. +Hm it's not late. +It's not late at all. +Yes, it's your bed time. +Oh. +Leave it alone, put it down. +Put it down there, it's very naughty of you to lift it up.. +. +Well what have you done to it? +Nothing. +Uhuh, hm. +I copy you. +Who's that. +Oh yes I do +So what are we doing tomorrow? +Going to Pelgrin's Way. +No we are not, we've been to Pelgrin's Way. +No we haven't. +Yes we have. +The other one, Tunbridge Wells, that one. +I think a lot depends on what the days like. +It's going to be a nice day isn't it? +Depends on what daddies doing . +Don't you want to go to Chimneys? +Why?. +Feed the jolly donkeys. +. +Feed the stupid donkeys . +what's it? erm what's the telly, what's a. +Well if your a little more explicit. +What's it called the,they bought this pig medicine pig retained there trotters and every thing and then it goes any more of the erm dialysis put it, make a pig rock and roll. +If it doses it's feed. +Yeah, make a pig rock and roll. +Then he said the old bat needs . +Very nice. +Erm, there's a, at the back of that Royalty and Empire magazine, you know it was telling you about Madame Tussaud's and the London Palladium, somewhere that the wax works that do all the rock and roll the,. +Seen that . +Have you? +Yeah . +You've seen it or you've been there? +No, I've been there. +Have you, where'd you go there? +We went to Madame Tussaud's. +We've got this on . +Oh yes, said erm,, cos they've got Dolly Parton. +Hm. +Erm. +That was just a little bit of it. +Elvis Presley, Beatles, they've got everything, well. +They've just done one of Kylie Minogue. +Yes, yes.. +. +No, I don't know what that's like, I think they play with music as well. +Yes, I've heard all the music, it's drop for a couple of seconds and . +They do lady shows at the monetarium +Do they? +Hm, in the evenings. +What, outside? +No, inside. +big dome. +Postman Pat. +Can you it? +Chris said it's quite good. +Chris? +Chris Ellis. +There's so many Chris's. +Yeah, well the Chemistry one. +That's . +Where's R? +Somewhere. +A, B. +R, there, what's that? +Oh thank you. +Do you think till midnight? +I don't know. +Be jolly tired if he is. +No he won't be up to midnight if he hasn't got the car and the last train goes before then. +You should drive up and get him. +I wouldn't. +Wouldn't you? +No, not at that time of night. +Ha, ha. +Would you do it? +I don't know, I'll worry about that when it happens. +Hm, hm. +If I have to drive up then you've all got to come. +Your not waiting till you've been up to London. +I expect somebody might of given him a lift up, I don't know. +Six o'clock this morning I wasn't really asking a lot of questions. +No. +The icing didn't turn out what it might have done. +Huh. +Quite good English, the icing didn't turn out as it might have done, can't have what it might have done. +Mummy . +In what way did it not turn out as you expect it. +Well the icing. +Well it's to runny. +No, I mean, the colour. +I told you, you don't get red. +Don't you. +No, no, that, the only way you can get red is that there is a little pot in there . +look it says scarlet. +I no, but it doesn't come out scarlet,how much you need. +Hey, there isn't any other magazines, there not there. +What maga- oh no there aren't. +Haven't got any other Early Learning Centre ones. +You had them. +Well I use to have, but I threw them away cos you don't really need two . +Oh mummy . +Oh I'm sorry. +I didn't know you were so interested in them. +You hadn't looked at them. +I want to look at them . +Your gonna have to choose something for Mrs Macdonald's baby. +Hm. +When's the baby . +It's a long time off it's in August. +Yes, she's leaving in three weeks before the end of term. +Is she? +What the end of the year? +The end of this term. +Oh right, that is the end of the year isn't it? +Then Mrs Pitiful will be back. +She'll be back next term. +I won't see her again. +No, no. +She was nice. +Oh I expect you will. +I've never had her. +No I don't think you will do. +She was nice wasn't she mummy? +Hm. +I've never me her,. +I was a bit disappointed in those Laura Ashley dresses, they were to tight for a start. +They've gone they've gone more skimpy cos they fit last year. +What d'ya mean there've gone more skimpy. +Well they haven't made them so big. +Oh. +This year I would of liked Mr Stedlock. +Would you? +Would you rather have Mrs Macdonald? +I like musical rabbit, before I had music rabbit. +Nine, nine, Little rabbit is very sleepy, peel the and watch his, as he, what does that say? +Watch as he rubs . +Rubs . +Rubs his eyes, yawns, and moves his ears and legs to the music, colours make V A +Make varied is it? +Colours what vary, yeah. +Varies, as birthday, birth twenty four months. +His birthday. +Little rabbit . +The birth his birthday was twenty four months, that means from when you can buy it for a new born baby or somebody up to two years old, will be suitable for it. +Right, so it wouldn't be suitable for me. +Not really, I don't think you need a bunny by the side of your cot now, do you? +No. +Haven't got one. +Ow haven't got a cot. +Little bear is very hungry, pull the string and watch his watch as he licks the honey from the jar And moves his ears and legs to the music. +. +Do you need your hanky? +I quite like this bunny, he can't lick his lips. +Here you are . +So how. +Looks as though his yawning to me. +No, that one. +Oh, that one looks like a teddy bear not a bunny. +They say it's the one lollipop goes up . +It is, but he goes . +Oh. +It says that . +How much is that? +Licks his lips. +Five pounds. +Oh, hey. +No they aren't, there four pounds ninety nine. +It's only a penny of five pounds isn't it? +Yes. +. There quite nice aren't they, you can hang them on your cot that's good. +You can buy one of those for Mrs Macdonald if you wanted. +Yeah, but she might have already buy one for her won't she. +Well if you get it from there she can always take them back. +that. +I what? +Oh that looks bit expensive. +Uh, sorry. +eight pounds something. +Hm +. +Eight pounds ninety nine, nearly ten , nine pounds. +Pardon. +Her husband's a lot older than she is. +Yeah. +Why have you seen him? +Has he been in? +No. +He hasn't. +He's at the . +At the summer fair last year. +Yeah. +Don't you remember? +Yeah, two scruffies. +I think Mrs Webb's husband looks quite nice. +. +Mummy, guess what do you have to do with this?. +. +Oh I don't think so, no.. +It's not, not as coarse. +It's got a short . +Oh no, I don't think I'm inclined to buy one of them, ten, eleven pounds ninety nine. +quite expensive. +. +. +You will do in the Isle of Wight. +Hm, hm. +Wonder who's after the . +Well, I should think you'll have Mrs Webb again. +Why? +Will she take the girls and take the . +Hm, I'll expect the other friends will take something . +Oh that'll be good, give her that. +I would think if she think's she's gonna be a bit nervous then I'll get . +That's sixteen pounds ninety nine. +I'm not spending that amount my poppet. +Oh sorry. +Seventeen pounds or. +. +No, sixteen.. +No, I don't think I'll give her my . +You can make me a lemon cheesecake if you like after tea. +Now. +Alright. +Can I make one tomorrow? +Oh no,. +Well we won't be able to eat it then, it takes over night to set. +Eat it Monday +Hm. +Eat it Monday night or make it tomorrow. +Well I thought if you make it tonight we could have it over the weekend. +Er, yeah, I'll make it make it now. +How long will it take? +Not very. +Ten minutes? +About the same as the cakes? +Takes less than the cakes. +Oh, what you need is oh. +How much is it?. +Need biscuit in it . +. +. +One pound ninety nine, a tale of Beartrix Potter. +That's a game I think. +Oh, that's one pound ninety nine. +Grandma thought she might get you . +Ah, thank you. +You told me that. +Hm. +What do you think it'll be a boy or. +I don't know. +What would you prefer asking for a boy or a girl? +What Mrs Macdonald? +Yeah, yeah. +. +Which did you want? +Oh I wanted a girl. +Did you? +What did daddy want?. +I don't know. +He probably would of liked a boy, it would of mean quite nice to have a boy and a girl, girl or a boy, one of each it would of been more expensive, couldn't pass the clothes down. +Mum he would, he would cos it's not very fair on him because he hasn't got a boy and were both girls. +He'd love to go to football matches. +going slow, so I don't think I ought to of done . +Could I tell her right. +boys. +I'd quite like a boy then a girl. +I'd just have one, I'd have a girl there easier . +. +Well they're probably are for mummies. +Probably are for daddies as well. +I doubt it. +Why? +Well, it's easier to bring up one, one like you while your more understanding or something. +What, so you know what little girls like and. +Seem to, yeah . +I wouldn't like as many as Daniel's. +What, no, no, oh, mean you . +Got about sixty . +Can't go out very far if you've got to take six people. +No . +. +Eh, I gonna take about four or five when I've left school. +. +Four or five when you've left school? +I want six children, think four of them have left school. +They haven't. +Why? +There was two younger than Daniel, so has Daniel left school?. +. +Ok twins left school. +No they haven't. +They have now. +Amy's is still at school, so that's four I can think of still at school. +Who? +. +Yes, well, well then the others. +Hm. +Hannah, one I don't know her name, she's got black hair . +Amy , Olivia, Pat, Amy, Daniel, Seth and the baby. +Yes, and there've got another one with fuzzy hair, don't know there names. +Well that was six, seven. +Oh I don't . +at school she thinks she's just left. +They weren't too pleased about it, so they kicked her out the house I think. +I think so she Daniel said she's not living with them any more. +Probably . +Yeah. +What's them?. +Hm, hm . +Erm. +. +Open probably. +Oh don't stop that lot. +Two pounds . +. +One pound. +. +Put some cherries there.. +I don't know, I've never been. +. +Hm I hm hm +Go and get the rest of my washing in, it's quite dull . +It's expensive . +Shall I make my bed first?. +I think Hey Tiddle, Tiddle be quite nice, that's one pound ninety nine, Hey Diddle, Diddle. +What is it a tape? +Yeah. +Oh. +For a little baby. +Oh no, they won't have a tape recorder will they? +I don't know. +There's a book what be quite good, Sooty. +Hm quite hard, Alfie and Bunny Rooms. +Can't you sleep little bear. +Can't you sleep little bear. +There's a happy pig. +Now I'm not to good. +Oh Spot, yeah Spot, goes for little babies. +Spot goes to the farm, that's number F. +Letter F. +Number Ace one, two, Oh, one, two. +Don't think you'll really buy new born babies a book not quite . +Why can't we? +Perhaps have a look in Marks and see whether they've got any nice baby clothes, she might like something like that. +Well we don't know how big she is. +Well she won't be very big to begin with, if we get white it won't matter if it's a boy or a girl will it? +Well then, will have to see what they've got. +She doesn't know what it is. +No. +So what does it ? +Well then you'll buy white, so it doesn't matter does it? +Why doesn't it? +Well you can always put babies in white, whatever sex they are. +Why? +Doesn't matter whether whether it's a boy or a girl.. +Why don't you buy some trousers? +Then it doesn't matter, girls can wear trousers can't they? +Yes. +White trousers. +Eh I don't think I'd should able to do that, choose before. +It's hard isn't it to decide? +It is hard to decide isn't it? +No I should put your anorak on cos it's getting cooler. +Oh, alright. +I wouldn't be out too long cos, it. +Do what? +Well you tend to cough don't you? +Hm. +I'd really rather you wo- got a bit better. +Is that . +Pardon. +Are you going to put your anorak on? +No I'm not going to . +What you going, oh, oh I see . +. +I sh- think you've only got to leave it till it's melted, has it melted? +Yeah. +Oh well switch it off then. +. +Well I've turned it down and then it blew out, there, right. +.. +Now be careful. +It's difficult. +Oh, well, I mean I really didn't need this at the moment with daddy coming in and everything.. +Well can you put that that tine of biscuits away. +Oh I know how to do that, I . +Cos I don't want it all over the floor. +Can I have a little go now? +Well I should let Clare do this it's not very easy. +Oh Clare promised me I cooked one. +Quick go but you won't be able to do it . +Go on then. +. +You've got to press it hard. +What've you been doing today then? +Shopping. +There you are, think you can pour it? +Poppet come here let me finish this, oh your getting in no end of a mess. +It's not very easy. +Well, no, no, no Amy. +Want another biscuit. +I know well I don't, go and get a cloth and clear up the mess that you've made. +We haven't got all of them. +So you've been shopping what else? +Been round to Jenny's. +. +. +Come on Clare could you do that? and then you can go and get your stuff in from outside. +What have you been doing today? +I thought you done that. +No I haven't done that. +You said I could . +Well, well then you'd better go and get some of you took it out. +Put your shoes on then. +. What you been doing at Jenny's? +Well it's Lucy's birthday so. +Oh. +I took the present round, and had a cup of coffee. +She's . +don't put it on the Amy. +I know,. +Manage the garden . +No it was last week. +You done it? +No, look, I, I don't really feel like doing this at the moment. +But you said you've got to make cheesecake tonight. +You did but . +But when it comes down to it you can't do it can you? +You said we could. +. I'll get the margarine ready. +I've done the margarine, you you can get me the erm thing . +Where's the margarine?. +It's in here, it's melted, you've just watched it melt. +. +Can you get me the flan tin down there +.. +Yes thank you. +Do you want the bigger one? +No that one will do . +Yeah and it causes me more washing up which I've only just finished. +Why do you have to turn to the other side, why can't you have it up the middle.. +Pardon. +Why haven't you got it on the . +Well, then I'll boil that side won't I? with all the cuts, right, mix that round if you like. +Yeah. +Now don't spill it every where. +after her. +I don't think you can both stir it at the same time. +Amy.. +Oh come on, you can't both stir it, I'm going to get very cross, I'm too tired for this. +. +Now let Clare stir it for a bit and then let Amy have a turn, but don't slop it every where, or else you won't have a. +What've you been doing all day today?. +Well we've been, I mean we were at Jenny's for a while, I went to the bank and eh, then we've been into Bromley all afternoon. +. +Shopping. +What? +Well stuff for Clare for the Isle of Wight really. +. +She needed a back pack and she needed some soap and a tooth travelling tooth brush, eh, yes that looks alright, knock knock it of the. +Can you get me a spoon please. +. +Eh a knife I think. +Pardon. +A knife I think. +. +I'll do it +That's about all really, nothing very exciting, I mean we were probably at Jenny's an hour. +. +Erm, there's a sort of shop in the mall that sort of sells, oh it, it does key cutting and heeling and stuff, we got one from there in the end. +We had a look in Salisbury's but she didn't like any of them there. +There so expensive. +Now what shall we do? +You can wash the erm, the beaters, and you can put the cream next to the other bowl and I'll mix them altogether when I've got the lemon juice in. +. +in my hair. +Oh Clare you have, tt. +I thought I'd . +tt oh. +Go on put the cream down, you don't wonder around with that. +Put it down here. +Oh come on. +I didn't mean to. +Well, would you like to wash and dry your hair? +Oh come on I'm tired . +Look what's Clare done . +Sorry. +Right. +. +Right, well would you like to go up and run Amy a bath then please, cos I haven't got this finished and. +What's this? +Oh my dress I need to shorten it. +Look! +Clare you were asked to run a bath that doesn't mean to say you go across the landing six times, just run her a bath and Amy will you get in it and then come down Clare. +I know,. +I'm tired and I don't want to cope with you, otherwise you both go to bed this minute. +What did you say? +I said you run her a bath. +I am . +And then , well why is you clumpering across the landing six or seven times? +Why all the screams? +I'm tired. +screaming. +Well just run her a bath and then come down. +If you don't, you go to bed. +Alright, here you are. +Mummy. +What? +Do you go up to half term and . +What's half term? +Well your on half term now aren't you? +Oh, well I can't just have lots of terms, half terms, cos the next one half term. +Half what?. +And then there's a lot more. +What are you talking about? +You have a term and then in a middle of the term you have a half term don't you? +Then you have a nice place. +Well. +Go home. +Well I don't know whether you go home from boarding school, you probably just have a day off, I don't know, I haven't been to boarding school. +Right, were do we get, sharp words . +The spider affair as it was called went all over the school before the day was out, it caused a great deal of laughter. +When mother,Mams Arougeaye heard of it she sneered. +To think that a French woman should be so foolish she said, though I didn't like spiders or earwigs or moths or even snakes. +Mams Audyponch should be ashamed to make her exhibition of herself. +The first form talked about it more than any one else, of course they squealed with laughter when they saw the poor Mary Lou Manselle and Gwendoline, all falling victims to the same spider, jolly clever spider said Irene, it means the only three people in the form that it that would be scared of it, I take my hat off to that spider, can't think why it chose my desk said Mary Lou, no, that was a shame said Gwendoline, poor Mary Lou it must of been an awful shock for you when you saw it, I wonder who put it there? +There was a silence for the first time it occurred to first form that the spider might of been put there on purpose, they looked at one another. +It was a dirty trick to put it into to poor Mary Lou's desk said Jean, she can't help being scared of things I suppose, she almost jumped out of her skin when she saw it, I should of thought any joker in our form would of been decent enough to popped it into say Alicia's desk, not if it happened to be Alicia who popped it in said a sly voice, you do so love playing tricks don't you Alicia? +You and Daryl where in the first form room before afternoon school and I'm sure we'll all remember you saying you'd like to put a spider down Mary Lou's neck. +It was Gwendoline speaking, Alicia glanced at her, well I didn't do it she says, nor did Daryl, sorry to disappoint you darling Gwendoline, Mary, but we just didn't, if it was any one I should think it was you. +Mary Lou's my friend said Gwendoline, I wouldn't do that to her. +Well if you've almost drowned her one week I should think you could quite well bring yourself to put a spider in her desk the next week said Daryl. +It's pretty funny that you and Alicia were the only ones in the classroom before afternoon school persisted Gwendoline angry that no one seemed to agree with her suggestion. +Shut up said Catherine shortly, we know it wasn't Daryl or Alicia because they say so. +The spider must of got in there by accident and that's that. +Well I think began Gwendoline that the class took at once. +Be quite Gwendoline, Gwendoline shut up, shut up Gwendoline, Gwendoline shut up. +There was nothing to do but to shut up, Gwendoline was sulking exasperated. +It had been such a good idea and all that had resulted from it was a double punishment for her and a complete failure to make anyone believe to Alicia or Daryl had played the trick. +True the first formers had had to go to bed an hour earlier, but they all voted it was worth it, Gwendoline felt vicious about the whole affair, she'd determining not to be put off by her first day there . +What erm hours early. +She did. +She determine not to be put off by her first failure, but to go on doing things to Mary Lou so that in the end the class would have to put the tricks down to Alicia and Daryl. +She thought she would also hint to Miss Potts that Alicia and Daryl were at the bottom of things, but she didn't get very far with this, she had to go and see Miss Potts about some returned homework. +She stood very neatly beside her in the little room that Miss Potts shared with Mams Audiponde at North Tower. +Miss Potts I was awfully sorry about that spider affair the other day, she began, of course Alicia and Daryl were in the classroom before hand, I'm sure they know something about it, I heard Alicia say, Miss Potts looked up, are you trying to sneak she said, or in more polite language to tell tales, because if so, don't try it on me. +At the boarding school I went to Gwendoline we had a very good punishment for sneaks, all the girls in the sneak dormy gave her one good spank with the back of a hair brush. +You may have a lot of interesting things to tell me, but it's no use expecting me to listen. +I wonder if the girls here out the same punishment for sneaks, I must ask them. +Gwendoline went flaming red, as sneaks, fancy Miss Potts daring to call her that. +Gwendoline Mary Lacy a sneak, all because she just wanted to drop a kindly hint, Gwendoline didn't no what to say she felt as if she'd like to burst into tears, but Miss Potts always got very impatient with girls who did that. +She went out of the room longing to slam the door as she often did at home, but she didn't dare to here. +She felt very sorry for herself, if her mother new what an awful school she'd come to she would take her away at once, Miss Winter too would be horrified. +But Gwendoline wasn't quite so sure about her father, he can say things at times very like Miss Potts said. +The week went by, it was a very pleasant week, hot with a cool breeze that made games and swimming even more pleasant than usual, Alicia and Betty were practising hard for the school sport, both were excellent swimmers and divers . +That's what I use. +That's not very nice is it . +Hm no, well try not to keep banging it. +It does on her and it's quite sharp. +Oh dear. +Daryl tried to imitate all they did, she was good to, but not quite so good as they were, but she was quite fearless and divide of the highest diving board and went down a chute in all kinds of peculiar position. +The only unhappy person that week was Mary Lou. +She'd got into a lot of trouble over many little things, for instance, her clothes in the changing room were being thrown down in a pool of water, and was soaking wet, she had to take them to matron to be dried, matron was cross. +Mary Lou can't you hang your things up properly in that changing room? +You know there always puddles of water on the floor from the girls coming in and out of the pool. +I did hang them up matron said Mary Lou mildly, I know I did, then Mary Lou's tennis racket sudden showed three broken strings, they were not frayed, but looked as if they've been cut, Mary Lou was upset. +My new racket she said, look Gwendoline, who would think a new racket would go like that. +It couldn't said Gwendoline pretending to examine it very closely, those strings have been cut Mary Lou someone's been playing a trick on you, what a shame. +Mary Lou was miserable, she couldn't believe she had any enemy's, for when she found buttons cut off on her Sunday dress, she new someone was being unkind and mean, Gwendoline comforted her. +Never mind I'll sew them on for you, I hate sewing but I'll do it for you Mary Lou. +. So making a great show of it Gwendoline sowed on the six blue buttons one night. +The first former's stared at her in surprise, they knew she never mended any thing if she could help it. +How did those buttons come off asked Jean? +That's what I'd like to know said Gwendoline smugly, six buttons all ripped off I'm putting them on for Mary Lou because I'm so sorry any one should play at such a dirty trick. +I'd like to know who cut the strings of her tennis racket too, the first formers looked at one another, it certainly is queer the way things have been happening to poor Mary Lou lately, even her prayer book had disappeared and some of her pencils had gone. +True there'd been found in Alicia's desk, but everyone thought that was just an accident, now they began to wonder if someone had put them there, not Alicia, Lizzie wouldn't do a thing like that, but somebody, it was getting near half term and new the girls were excited because some of them were expecting visits from there parents. +Any parent who lived not to far away would be sure to come. +Daryl because her father and mother were coming. +They lived a long way away, but they decided to take a weeks holiday in Cornwall and decided to see Daryl in the middle of it. +The girls began to talk about there families, I wish my three brothers could come said Alicia, we'd have some sport then. +I wished my little sister could come said Jean, I'd love to show her Mallory Towers. +Is your mother coming Sally asked Mary Lou? +No said Sally she lives too far away. +Daryl remembered something your mother had told her in a letter a week or two before, she said that she'd met Sally Hopes mother and had liked her and she said to that she'd seen Mrs Hopes baby. +Who?. +Sally. +Sally's sister a little girl of three months, Daryl had meant to tell Sally what her mother had said and had forgotten and now she remembered. +Oh Sally I expect your mother won't come because of the baby she said. +Sally went stiff, she stared at Daryl as if she couldn't believe her ears, her face went quite white. +When she spoke she sounded as if she was chocking. +You don't know what your talking about she said, what baby? we haven't a baby, my mother won't be coming because it so far I tell you. +Daryl was puzzled, but Sally don't be silly my mother says in a letter she's seen your baby sister she's three months old she said. +I haven't got a baby sister said Sally in a low queer voice, I'm the only one, mother and I have been everything to each other, daddy has to go, go away such a lot, I haven't got a baby sister. +. Girls looked at Sally curiously, whatever could be the matter with her she sounded so queer. +Oh right said Daryl and Elsie you ought to know I suppose any way, I'd suspect you'd like a sister, it's nice having one. +I should hate a sister said Sally, I wouldn't share my mother with anyone, she walked out of the room her face as wooden as ever, the girls were really puzzled, she's a funny one said Irene, hardly ever says anything, all closed up, somehow, but sometimes those closed up people burst open suddenly and then look out, well I'll shall certainly write and tell mother she's mistaken said Daryl and she did so. +Then the mesh, she told Sally the next time she saw her, I'm sorry I made that mistake about you having a sister she said to Sally, I've written to tell mother you've said you haven't one she must of been mistaken what your mother said. +Sally stood still and gazed, glared at Daryl as if she suddenly hated her. +What you want to go interfering for she burst out, leave me and my family alone, little busy body always sticking your nose into other people's affairs, Daryl's temper flared up, I don't she said, you gua rd your tongue Sally, I never meant to interfere and I can't think what all the fuss is about, either you have a sister or you haven't, I don't care. +You tell your mother not to interfere either said Sally, writing letters about my family. +Oh don't be so silly flared back Daryl really exasperated now, any one would think there was a deep dark mystery the way you go on, any way I'll just see what my mother says when she next writes to me and I'll tell you. +I don't want to know, I won't know said Sally as she put her hands put out her hands as if she was fending Daryl off, I hate you Daryl Rivers, you with, you with your mother who comes to see you often, sends you things and writes you long letters and comes to see you. +You boast about that to me you do it all on purpose, your mean, mean, mean. +. Daryl was utterly taken about, what in the wide world did Sally mean, she watched the girl go out of the room and sat down on the form completely bewildered. +Right, half term at last. +Half term at last. +Hm. +Right teeth cleaned at least I think. +Come on. +Teeth cleaned at last. +And bed. +Zzz -Zzz, bob ock noisy on that. +Hm. +Cockle. +Cockle doodle do. +Hello, hello doodle do. +come on cos I'm very tired. +. I've still got these cheese cake to finish off, wash your hands. +I've got just testing the collage thing you know. +Qule age a vi vous +How old are you? +How old are you? +Put in it. +No, quel, I think, it just sounded, will have to listen to that French tape again. +Make it collage. +Well that's probably just what it sounded like when you haven't any idea what she was talking about, but I think that. +collage. +Well I think that's what she was saying. +How old are you? +. +You should of said Je Suis. +Sept. +I am are. +Je Suis. +I didn't know. +No you didn't know. +Well she didn't know you weren't French did she? +No, I said I couldn't do this I didn't know. +Think then she probably gave up. +Yeah. +Well she didn't know English and you didn't know French. +No. +say yes . +Come on let's see ya . +Come on open a bit wider so I can do those, that's better, don't want them back ones to go bad. +Pardon. +You don't want those back ones to go bad. +I have brushed them well. +Good. +I have. +Hm +We don't usually cos you can't get up there. +Oh, you have to try. +we try. +Those the ones that'll go bad. +I do do them. +But I do the back one's twice, cos I do them with water as well. +Right. +I brush my teeth twice today because toothpaste . +She's been playing in her dolls house. +. +I tidied it up. +Where'd that come from then? +Well I think her feet you know kicking the carpet behind her. +. +dad. +These things happen don't they. +Uhum,. +Worse things happen at sea. +. +Have you been playing with your dolls house? +Yes, well I have played. +I wasn't played with in with it. +I tidied it up, you didn't do what I wanted first. +Hm, hm, hm, hm mummy do this. +That's alright. +. +What is this? +Think there the bits from the Sindy house. +There the bits I don't need. +Don't you want a dust bin. +Huh. +I think it's suppose to be a casserole. +Yeah, and I can't have the casserole. +. +Haven't got room for it . +Hm it's a bit big isn't it? +Yes, and the things to go in the oven . +You haven't got an oven at the moment. +Pardon. +You haven't manage to get an oven at the moment have we? +I'll make you an oven. +Oh, right. +Night, night, then. +Why do they an oven? +Well it hasn't come in. +Right. +Last time I wrote it, I hadn't got it. +Oh I've seen this one. +Have you, is it good? +Oh, what you doing? +Well nobody can see if you sit right in front of it, can they? +Well where you going to sit. +I'll sit here. +Can you tell me why your song book has to be on the floor and the music on the floor behind it? +Sue's just gone past at a hundred miles per hour. +Oh she'd been taking Matthew to work. +. +Would you like to go one hundred miles an hour?. +. +. +Yeah,. +car, car . +we have to pay for it About the didn't leave it on the living, kitchen table. +Yeah. +. +What till next week end when you . +Oh your not going next weekend are you? +Yeah. +I . +No, I don't want . +What even if it means you . +Yeah, even if it means I . +What do you want for breakfast? +Eh, can you get it? +Yeah. +Oh thanks. +Erm can I have a few a that or erm, marmalade sandwiches please. +Or what? +Marmalade sandwiches please. +Ok. +Thank you. +Just for you. +I'm going away next weekend, not next weekend. +Monday. +Monday. +Wonder if you'll remember the things we saw when we were there. +What you, what do you remember about the Isle of Wight. +Rain. +Rain. +Huh. +What with cows. +Yeah I no what, I have beach . +It wasn't. +it was. +. +All the pictures of us on the beach, with got all . +We haven't. +And the . +No they weren't. +We, do you remember going down to Pedelow , and going under the pier. +Yes, and I nearly crashed it. +And it was cold. +We had lots of nice ice cream there +Ah. +Hope to see that, when you put the handle on the table, the lights start flickering. +There, from there you can't see the light. +But if you put your hand on the table like this, look the light stops, look there. +Does it? +Look . +. Look. +Right, eh one for breakfast. +It is recording you daddy. +Is it? +Yeah Do you want to listen what you to what you've said? +No Clare,. +Come on Amy. +Come on Amy be a good girl, be a good girl, whoops, this pen has gone wrong. +Come on Amy. +switch this on again. +Yeah,. +. +. +Hear the language you just . +Have you seen this stupid cheque. +. +. +Got a another one. +You don't get another one. +What d'ya get? +Don't get anything. +Oh, I'll change my banks. +They just let you run out. +Then what? +Well I rang them up yesterday because I got two cheques left. +Yeah. +And there still waiting on the twenty fourth May, I said well I haven't got it yet, he said no it's taking two weeks or so. +I like ordering my cheques in that time. +Oh well, we all have it. +Can't escape from the printer now not, not to . +How long . +How many got coming. +. +I should think it's about two weeks. +Oh . +I know, you can't get a set cheque book. +Why? +Well I mean how'd ya get one? +You write to the bank and say. +I haven't got any cheque books. +Well. +. +Do you ring the printer then for a cheque book. +No, it's suppose to come, you come automatically. +Well when you get another cheque book, you write on the back please can I have another cheque book. +Why can't you ask for two cheque books at once? +Well they don't usually issue, I mean I usually make so I ask for one in plenty of time. +the next day, so. +Well they have to move the erm, the reminder, to get a cheque book. +Well I did, I took it, I took it out and said, alright when I went and enquired, I said well I would normally have a cheque book now cos I'm not always in the bank, and I had this slip to say I don't need one will come automatically he said oh yes, but that breaking down is hopeless, then I should fill it in now and I'll take it. +My would come the next day, well it . +. +Daddy. +What? +You can't just move . +I add them up yesterday and said what's it, what do I do, I've not come to , now they've sent me a temporary one. +Hm. +He said oh yes it's ordered, I said great, huh, going shopping this afternoon, what do I do when I haven't got any cheques left? +Abbey National. +. +Have cheque books there . +Hm. +. +Just erm, Lloyds convenient. +Well it means I've got to go on a Thursday so if you run out of money on a Tuesday with run out. +. +And how ever long the queue is in Abbey National I've got to wait. +bank queuing. +No, nothing like Building Society. +. +Park virtually outside. +Well it is the most convenient bank for us isn't it? +Yeah, it's only round the corner, you can park right. +Yeah. +Right by it. +Yeah. +I mean you'd be the only one in, or if your not the only one, you wouldn't have to wait long. +Daddy . +Daddy you get eh a over ten thousand pounds reward. +Hm. +If you see any one breaking into any bank around the country. +Probably do. +Do daddy, if that +. +. +do it. +Yeah, but they might arrest daddy at the same time. +No, well. +. +Then he doesn't take any thing, then I get the ten thousand pounds. +Easy. +Why've you got birthday girl on your. +Has that. +Dressing gown. +Super girl.. +I was gonna underneath. +. +They only record what your saying then? +No. +Not at the moment. +No, but, couldn't they write it all down? +I don't know. +Don't talk about it, your not suppose to +. +. +This is too big a knife. +Pardon. +This is too big a knife. +Well go and get another one then, be careful with it, don't use it like a dagger . +It's daddies one . +daddy. +One. +It's your fault that's my . +Your very . +. +. +Ah. +She usually spread marmites . +. +. +. +Screw erm up, screw erm up. +. +She doesn't like the story. +Oh got all the drips. +Oh,her. +I . +Highly commended her. +Oh. +What? +Screw them up. +Oh yeah. +She said did you know the story cos she doesn't like the story very much. +I know the story. +I know the story. +Oh that's all right then. +Why did you won't to know the story? +Cos she didn't know whether you'd like the story. +I know the story. +Was there a cutter? +That's why . +. +. +Here you go, here's a. +Erm, I think there cutting there deserts . +I do . +I don't know . +. +Well I think she cut it. +Gonna get back . +. +Bit naughty isn't they? +Gonna get some . +. +if he comes on a Thursday . +. +I see.. +Mind. +. +Oh your orange. +Orange. +Rose is just leaving. +Hm. +But it. +Could I look with you and mummy? +. +Gemma. +Tennis racket, yes. +Did it . +No. +. +Daddy. +There all . +up hill. +we'll walk up if you like. +No. +If you like . +I'll , I'm not packing any more. +. +No. +Okay forget it. +. +Daddy. +. +. +it already.. +Daddy. +. +Daddy. +Don't talk . +. +Could we?. +I'm not going to drive in . +Why? +What's wrong, daddy? +Well we can park right outside , what, any way, who's playing ? +I was. +She's a nice one for twenty two ninety five. +Oh. +But, that's the cheapest, so, no there's one for twenty one ninety nine. +Where are those from?. +Olympus. +What sort of is it? +I'll have to in the Argos place. +Yeah, eh lets erm ride into one. +No, you can look in the catalogue you don't need to go in there. +No, but. +Only if I want to, I don't mind. +I mean in any case ten minutes . +Does it, it does not it. +It doesn't . +Yeah, for you, you go in first gear . +Let's say twenty minutes, won't take more than that then we could get Clare you put your bicycle right outside of the shop, put it on the railings and go in, that's it then. +I'll ride mummies bike she's got gears. +Oh no your not. +Sshh. +Your not allowed to go on my bike, it's mine, you'll have to go on yours . +Amy she said mummies, not yours. +Oh, I thought she said Amy's. +No. +you've got gears instead of me. +Sally said you'll say that was the problem. +You said you weren't bothered. +Well I wasn't at the time. +Well your not allowed mine. +I am getting bigger. +I . +Yes Oh you look stuffed up as I am. +What? +Your about as stuffed up as I am . +. +I tried to when I was two didn't I? +Wonder what you blow it, it does . +. +Got to get. +Has to . +It's like if you have names I haven't much longer . +Daddy how much would you be prepared to spend for her, that I not How much would you, when you were little how much would you pay for . +ninety nine isn't it?. +Go up and get the old and see if . +That .. +. +That helter skelter was . +Yes,. +Yes,. +That depends how interest it was, I think +. +What with . +that was . +I hate . +Go on. +. +Most impressive . +If I'd got a seat on the back of my bicycle Amy could have gone on my bicycle. +Well I've got my nice own bicycle. +Hm, but, you wouldn't be safe to peddle into Bromley. +Why? +Those are a bit cheaper.. +that's . +Your problem is. +Slazenger, sixteen ninety nine. +What are they, that's going to be heavy as well. +Reebok. +Puma nineteen ninety nine and the Dunlop twenty three ninety nine. +Dunlop would be best. +That, that the Dunlop what be the lightest. +It doesn't give weight . +No. +There all aluminium +That's about . +That's nice,. +Does it say a variety of colours. +No.. +Why, give me back my plate. +. +. +Please may I get down from the table? +You haven't had any milk yet. +Oh, well I've had get down. +Yes , no, well go and get a hanky, blow your nose, is that yours? +No. +You might want some later. +Thank you. +I like the Slazenger one best. +that's a very lot. +.that one especially is . +. +Ok. +Huh, mind the cheaper they are, the heavier they go, there up from. +Yeah. +Who told you that? +They are. +Who told you that?. +No they not . +They do. +Who . +If you going into the, you know that shop. +. +the heavier ones are cheaper then the ones +Well you would stick in the cheapest one. +What? +That shop you were going at the cheapest one. +Yes. +So it was the heaviest was it? +Yeah. +. +Heavier than the head one, it's all right dad. +You'll probably find some of the expensive ones in the it doesn't necessary follow. +No. +On the whole the cheaper ones are lighter, because there the junior ones. +These aren't one for short short erm . +You've got to something daddy . +Sort of they look all to big for me. +That's what colour Caroline's got. +Who said Caroline had got the one like you saw in the shop? +How many rackets has she got? +No, I meant the style like that, that's it . +They all look just the same, they just different colours . +They don't mummy . +Huh. +size . +smaller. +Not one of those said . +Alright, in a moment. +Oh, not going me you said I would get some. +Thank you +If you put it down it'll all goes on the plate. +I know. +No, it's soaking up all the bread crumbs. +Next lot are going to shut shuttle cock, erm shuttle cock.. +Pardon. +Not going to erm Badminton racket. +The trouble with Argo's is you can't really get them out to try them. +There's quite a big sports shop in Orpington. +Is it Gamleys? +Yeah. +We can go there. +Daddy, can't we? +Have you got tap dancing today Amy? +Hm yeah. +We could go while she's at tap. +Pardon. +No. +Ah, to Orpington I'm not biking to Orpington. +Were not biking to Orpington were biking to Bromley. +Well I don't fancy biking into Bromley. +Don't be such a lazy oath. +Well I don't. +Perhaps we'll go another day. +Please daddy can we go in the car? +I pay for the eh I pay ten pea or twenty pea or whatever for the ride. +for the parking meter. +. +Miles away from. +So, I don't mind. +You'll have to walk. +Daddy can I have another cup of tea please? +. +Paying two people, there's two people in the car. +I will, I will pay you twenty pea or whatever. +First find a meter before you go. +Otherwise I'll pay for the fine for being on a yellow line. +Forty pounds? +Forty. +. +Thought you said it was twelve. +No. +Double yellow lines are forty. +Aunty Monica got ticket her, fined for parking on a yellow line, didn't she? +Once grandma said, and I thought it was over . +She isn't our aunty is she? +No not really. +What's that then? +Why do we call her aunty mummy? +Please can we go in the car ? +There be plenty of parking spaces if you go . +Let's go on a bicycle, it'll be quicker I think. +Huh. +. +Pardon. +Wearing your today. +Please. +Your such a lazy so-and-so you come on the bicycles. +No. +. +No, can't . +Probably certainly not sending her on her own. +There you are Clare there's an altum for you. +What. +Please, probably go to Rainham any way. +No I said Rainham tomorrow. +Sorry I that won't , that won't wash. +Why ? +Oh, please. +You have to wash the car remember, we can get off by the car . +than going in the car . +Go in mummies car if it's smaller to get in places, daddy. +Yes. +Do you want to? +No. +Why? +Cos you've got to park a car. +I think you ought to go in your really. +Yeah. +If you had a look in them in Bromley it's not a great big sports shop is it? +No. +Olympus. +. +No. +Well. +She's not working to . +She's not biking to Bromley?. +I don't know where else you'll find one in Bromley do you? +Pay twenty pea for dad. +Tell daddy you'll pay twenty pea just for . +. +Bet you can't . +a racket Alders? +They sell rackets? +. +They only sell good ones in Alders. +I think there's more shops than . +I'm not cycling right the way up there . +Is there? +. I haven't seen one up there. +There's a, I mean there's a school shop and they sort of sell back pack, might have got back pack there. +What the sport shop? +The sport shop. +Oh. +Yes, there's a school shop. +We ought to start getting my school uniform. +Well might and wait till the second of July and get it all second hand. +Yeah, well say it's all sold out by then. +No, that's when there doing it, second of July. +The day you go to school. +What, so your at the uhum, place, while I'm at doing . +It all available for you to buy at the end of the day. +For me? +Well no, me. +Not just you. +Pardon +Any way have a word with Mrs have a word with Mrs look on the market for any thing uhum. +I've got a tee shirt uhum. +I've just got to start to get my school uniform now. +She must of forgotten. +Mrs . +This not what I would get. +Took that to, give Clare the school on umm. +. +. +Hm, trouble is we haven't seen any of them yet. +Haven't seen her in quiet a while. +Hm, oh though she said she's got some school uniform, but we haven't stop to think. +Well it's worth asking her when you see her. +You said it was rude to ask her for it. +Why . +Well it was probably a bit rude in February. +I think you can probably ask her now. +Wonder if she's there, take over from. +Do you know her house? +Yes, I don't like to go down and knock on the door really. +. +I bet she . +To talk, the teachers don't give you there telephone number if there's any trouble do they? +You sometimes get there address. +Would you very keen if . +I know Mrs Woodruff's address, mummy parked her car outside her house. +. +She lives in Kent Wood . +. +oh . +I like those ones . +Dad . +There were one last night on uhum,things. +. +Oh, I haven't had mine yet. +. +Well all your doing is nattering and. +Two, two teaspoons please Amy. +There, there not a teaspoon, one for me and Clare can only have one . +Why? +Cos I have another one.. +One of these books that they . +He, he, he, he, he, he. +That the. +He, he, he, he, he, he. +You can't run with . +That's mine . +No, you no, teaspoon . +.. +Clare wants a big so I got . +Look, funny that they print the . +. +. +Yeah. +Oh she can't have two that's . +No I didn't. +Can I have a bit more Amy? +No. +Why?. +Hm, well that's, that's an awful lot actually, let, let, let Clare have some will you got to have a little bit less this time Amy. +Yeah, but two. +It is your second, isn't it? +That your second? +I've hardly got any. +. +Hm, that was my chair. +Your next to daddy. +And what's wrong with that? +Your next . +Don't know how much you've got. +What a mini t.v. +What. +Oh right. +. Well you don't have to give it back do you? +. +Yes. +uhum. +. +What? +Oh nothing. +No nothing. +How much? +I . +Only said something, why. +So how much are tennis, how much, no. +. +I should think he'd give her it. +Give her. +Why? +Has John McEnroe given his? +I would think so. +He breaks all of his, doesn't he? +He goes and breaks it in half when his lost. +I'm amazed at the sale of the manufactory exactly what they want. +Keep the rackets a main . +Are they? +So they don't have to pay. +Don't know. +How much would they cost, you know,. +Lots of money. +What, five hundred. +Thousands I should think. +Finished that.. +Thousands . +Phew. +John McEnroe threw his into the crowd once. +He nearly killed someone . +Daddy I want to show you something. +Want to show me something . +And his . +Oh wow. +Dad. +Ok. +Dad. +That's the one I made . +It does. +. +That's quite a good one, isn't it? +Is that one of the . +. +It was the . +Yeah. +. +It does . +You . +I forgot I made one like that. +You have two things to put the raspberry and then they . +That's probably why it was broke. +. +Well that wasn't why, he didn't, well he didn't happen to that one. +It just. +How'd you know? +It just,together and then . +Especially if it goes smash. +And then they . +Go up and get the uhum Index catalogue and see if that's got any more in it. +Any more? +. +What they . +. +. What do you fancy doing today then? +Uhum, I don't know. +Just a break . +I wonder whether we go .. +No.. +No, that's what they want. +Just get that in Tunbridge Wells. +. +. +Yeah. +wash this up . +No. +I much doing the day might'n you. +Well we can't go out tomorrow cos Amy's got a party. +Yeah. +They weren't actually on that boat were they? +. +. +Yeah. +They weren't actually on that boat.. +Yeah.. +What do you want to do today? +I want to go shopping +while mummies getting dressed. +Nine ninety nine. +That's more like it. +No I don't like that tennis racket, I don't like the colours. +Much better. +Junior and Senior sizes, there you are. +Well we want you to decide don't you? +Yeah,. +The others can be every so sweet. +Where put the picture of Amy. +Well that one comes in a junior size. +Which one dear? +That one for nine ninety nine. +Oh yeah. +Amy come here. +Amy. +Look at the picture of you. +It says it's senior or junior sizes. +. +. +. +More the sort of price.. +. +Do you want your cup of tea Clare? +Yes please. +Well there it is. +. +I if you really want to, better going into your and having look in the well Well this won't take much more than that though, do you? +Why don't you like that one? +Pretty it's green. +Let's, ask you what other colours they were . +. +Hm, it's not worth paying a lot of money at the moment, when you get better at it Back pack's it is, seven ninety nine. +That's a head one. +. +. +Don't like that one Difficult . +Look, she look's to . +Look, that look, see. +. +. +I remember that, that was absolutely awful. +. +Did I take that picture? +No, I don't think so, Should think daddy did. +Think you were a bit young then to take pictures. +Yeah, cos I bought a camera in the Isle of Wight. +No you didn't. +Oh no it's Wales. +No it wasn't it was uhum Weymouth. +Oh. +It depends really what it wouldn't be very sensible. +. +Yeah, it was . +Yeah. +. +. +. +I . +Never mind, see what the weather's like it won't be . +No. +Oh yes I bought you some beads in . +Oh you have, haven't you? +. +Pardon. +Yeah, bit come off. +Yeah +Just give this a quick whizzo. +It's quite a sweet book. +. +What? +I don't want to . +No. +I'm hoping for a new one this year. +What. +You new one this year. +Possible . +Ah, ah, you would holiday France. +I won't have any homework at all. +No. +Will I? +Not unless they give us some. +No, there won't be some, make the most of it, huh. +Yeah, but, won't they give us some before . +I wouldn't of thought so. +You would or you wouldn't of thought so. +I wouldn't have. +Good. +Can't be sure. +Well done, perfect day out. +Yes,. +It's very good. +There you are, there you are. +Very good. +Yeah. +Have you got any of the tee shirts, that they were. +I think we have yes. +Are, did you want one to wear? +. +Pardon. +Yes, I'll have one. +No I think you can have a white one. +Do you want a white or a red one? +White one I think do you? +Yes please. +small. +Oh yes I'd should think she's only small. +Uhum. +When does she start her other class? +I think that's quite big enough for you, don't you? +Think . +Yes I don't think we could manage any. +You don't want it, do you want small, you wouldn't want a small would you ? +No, no no that should be fine. +Have a small medium? +No. +Small tee shirt in white one for a small child isn't it? +There we go. +Small adult. +The child's are very small. +Ah well one to fit this one. +Eh she looking in the large child?because they shrink a bit in the wash. +They can wear these for tap can't they? +That's a large child, they wear the red they wear red for tap. +That's a large child. +Yes, I think's that probably better. +But they usually wear a vest with it and . +I think you'll have to have a red. +Do you mind a red?. +Alright. +Do you like a red one? +Please. +Right, how much do we owe you for, sorry about that. +Uhum, children's one, five pounds.. +Oh that's a. +Yeah, +Lovely, oh sorry, I haven't got a five. +Uhum. +There you are Oh thanks very much, sorry about that, right, you will be smart won't you? +Uhum . +Eh large child I think, is it, can't tell. +Yes, large child. +There you are. +Right, pardon. +Well a small child will be too small for you I think, yeah. +I've seen Jason Donovan live on stage. +Have you, where? +Yeah, it's Jason and his technicolour dream coat. +Well you won't of seen it yet. +I've seen it. +No, it hasn't started yet. +It starts today. +What does? +Jason Donovan and technicolour dream coat. +When are we going to see it? +Next Saturday. +Well actually it was on quite, quite a while ago when I was six it was on. +Yes, but not with Jason Donovan in it. +Yes, cos Jason Donovan, on that one Jason wore Joseph. +Well yes his Joseph this time. +One that I watch Jason Donovan was actually Joseph. +Ah right. +Yes, well with seen it once before, but that was at Bromley. +Pardon. +We've seen it before haven't we? +But that was at Bromley. +. +No. +There going up to London to see it. +Ah, are you coughing, oh dear. +All right? +Oh ding-a-ling, yeah. +Hole in the swing. +Not as far as I've just left them. +Hole in the swing. +Yeah,. +Do you know how long it goes on for? +Hole in the swing. +Got an idea it goes on till one o'clock, but, I mean they might as well keep them. +There was only a few people there, I don't , busy one, there was about four children there. +Oh gosh, oh there's seem quite full. +I wonder if perhaps . +Yeah, yeah, think so. +. +Yes, I don't know. +. +Yes it is isn't there, yeah. +What's the date? +Oh yes, we were going to go out but bother. +. +Michelle. +Have you been at work or did you. +Yes, I've . +Yes, hello Arthur. +Ring the bell, come on, in you go. +Yes, had we been a little brighter, we were going to ring up and take Amy out yesterday we were also aah, and we struggled into Bromley and eh that was it. +Yes been hopeless hasn't it? +No . +. +I wouldn't think so . +. +I will ask him but I doubt it. +I don't know whether his uhum. +It's not like, I mean,. +Are they? +of the if your not careful . +Yeah, yeah. +to any changes, cos when there daughters leave they leave anyway. +They go. +five years, so I was wondering if he would. +His not that sort of bloke? +He keeps a very low profile. +I thought I thought he was very all sort of, I thought he or you know, good at delegating and eh. +hm, I don't, I would doubt it, I mean he has absolutely nothing to do with our school. +. +No, no, muggins, muggins does, but. +You don't need, he, that sort of thing that turns you on or. +No, I wouldn't be on the committee, no, cos I could never guarantee he'll be home. +No, I point. +No it's to much of a, I hate saying I'll go out at eight o'clock and tell him to be home and at quarter too eight he hasn't come and oh, I'm to tired really, but, so I've always played it that I will help when I when I can, but uhum, I don't go on the committee, cos then your stuck, you've got to go. +Oh yeah, well you can only . +That's right, yeah, so . +Years, obviously you get roped into . +To do all the things whether you feel like it or not, oh no, I usually take a back seat and then when it's , I'm . +Well, well it's usually time to do it. +Yeah, I mean I do a stall and everything at the summer fair and stuff. +Well they often ask her, I mean . +They usually want volunteers, yeah . +They're a hand short or, or there is functions then obviously there are . +That's, that's more my style and then you know you're doing something or you not, you, you don't have to and if you're around, yes we got oh pages of it from Bromley High the other day. +What uniform and stuff? +Uniform and swimming club and flute. +Yeah. +And, and this new, what's this new track suit like? +Haven't seen them, haven't seen a new one . +. +Fifty five pounds . +.. +Uhum, I dunno, I've, I've seen something like grey track, like grey. +Grey and pink it said. +pinky . +Yes, I haven't seen it though, I haven't, I've heard of the new ones but I haven't seen it. +It must be a shell suit I think. +No, it says optional, I think it'll be very optional for us at the moment. +Uhum I mean she don't have to have it . +Especially the way there getting . +And they grow quickly, I mean it sort of. +When there growing quickly . +Yeah. +I mean it's sort of shooting up every other term aren't they? +Yeah, yeah, so well. +Buy extremely large ones. +Ought to have Clare . +Yes, well she goes on the second of July, she has a day at school. +Oh she has a day in school. +Yeah, yeah and lunch. +Yeah,no stop it . +So she can meet her teacher and all the other starting with her so, quite excited about that. +Yeah. +Yeah, so there was a second hand uniform sale, so I thought great. +Yeah,, I they never give you date, yeah . +. +Oh, right, well,. +In wonderful condition. +Well that's it. +They grow out of it quickly . +Uhum, I mean . +I mean if you buy, put your foot down . +Quarter of an inch or so, I couldn't believe it, you know . +No, no, especially if you've only got one daughter and it only goes threw once and, I mean the list is so long. +. +Yeah. +I, I have to look at the I mean we looked at it when it first came through, when all our originals . +When do you get all you know, all the cookery aprons and the. +Yeah, science overalls. +Science aprons and then the shorts for athletics and the swimming costume. +It must of cost quite a piece cos it obviously . +Yeah, swimming . +Yeah, yeah. +It's better to have that then eh to ruin the . +Oh yeah, but I mean it just goes on when you need it all new. +Oh yes, yes, you, oh yes, I have. +I think it's very kind of the uhum . +Well it's on the second of Jan July. +Yeah. +When were here, so, yeah, oh I shall go and see what bargains I can get here, eh. +I've done it before. +Yeah, cos eh, that'll be good. +Yes, I might, I might pop in and . +I saw a blazer that was going in the sale couple of weeks ago and I, I said. +Yes, I missed the date, I missed the date of the last one . +I mean it's absolutely immaculate , I mean you, you sell it brand new from a shop, I agree yeah. +Yeah, well that's it basically. +It was a very small one, but it, you know. +They often don't wear them that much, so. +I think they had a price on, it was something like,. +Hm. +I think they put there own price though, I don't know how they do it. +Probably. +. +Yeah, then you better pricing it low and getting rid of it then too high and. +. +Yes, I think we'll have to have have a good look, yes it's alright when you've got a few things to get, but when when you've got the whole list. +Ding, dong, ding, dong. +It's a bit sort of horrific, but eh. +Why don't you . +I think it's more than that for the seniors. +. +. +I think. +. +Seventy five I think, yeah, seventy five I think they were paying for the. +You've got to get,. +You have no choice. +. +Oh, oh well they have said grey coat from anywhere, just a long grey coat, uhum. +. +Yes, what was it, then they said white blouses, just open neck. +Not necessarily . +No, no. +. +The skirt is definite, you know, so many pleats, uhum, so obviously that is and the blazer's static, but quite a lot of it seemed to be fairly, you know, instead of grey, either the school track suit or just a grey track suit, so uhum, which it is, it's all these little bits like . +Yeah. +Hockey stick . +. +Oh yes, trainer, what am I thinking, oh lovely, yes well I'm a. +You do it all bit by bit, if you do it all in one fail swoop, you think oh my . +Bits yes well Georgina round the corner apparently she has the lot new, because the bank moved them and they paid her and it was over four hundred pounds. +Oh I can believe that. +Yeah.. +Keep working. +Oh dear, yes, yes, right, oh well. +. +Well I'll see you Tuesday won't we? +she get's on alright. +You sure that's alright, that's. +. +Oh yes now . +Can you manage? +Hop over it don't ya? +No, what's the swimming club like, do you know? +It seems to be quite well run, we haven't, we haven't got round to joining it . +Yes, have you seen, have you seen the pool?. +Mainly because of the restrictions on. +The pool, I've seen the pool yes, Clare's been in it. +Tuesday and a Saturday, you know, and it depends on what you're doing . +. +. +Shoosh now please. +Saturday there are less in the morning, I don't know how, what time it actually it's been used. +Probably when there at tap. +Well I mean, it's, it's, if your I think perhaps Clare's age . +Yeah, there to young. +go with them we can't let them go on there own, I mean once there've school, you've got to take come back later or something. +Yes, yes, it's more useful probably in the holiday. +Yes, that's right. +Come up here, look. +Oh yes I think ploughing through all this lot. +information. +Yes, yes, would you like to join this, how about that, how about the other, oh dear, yes it was a, yes we said lessens, I don't know what there lessons were like. +There pretty good about it, there's two or three that has the lessons there, so . +Yeah. +No, don't bounce on there you'll fall off the edge. +. +Yes, well, I mean Amy can swim, so uhum, yes it's just how much you can do, I mean Clare doesn't really need, need lessons I don't think. +Yeah. +Yes, then you can join and hope to use it. +To use it in the holidays,. +. +Yeah. +. +Yeah. +Try and get a certain people acting as life guard otherwise it time, so . +You've just wonder where your spare times gone . +. +Yes, yes, just disappeared, yeah, right, right, well I'll ask Alistair, oh well uhum, I wouldn't hold out a lot of hope, huh, somehow, his uhum, he puts in an appearance at the summer fair for half an hour and looks round, says I think I'll go now,, I'll leave you to it you know, keep the children,, that's it, isn't it, his taken our Clare in to buy a tennis racket. +Comes down to feet. +Suppose they said it shrinks as well. +Hm, but it is a bit big,isn't it? +No I think that's probably alright, they do have them long don't they? +all the other children come up to, they don't go up to here, I think I'll have to this don't you? +Let's have a look, does it say what size it is? +No. +Age nine to eleven it says. +Age nine. +It is a bit big though . +I think it's a bit big yes. +Oh mum, to, it'll fit Clare. +Yes, I think seven to eight would have fit you better. +Yeah, was there any seven to eight, I think we should of got . +Stand, stand up and lets see. +Do you think that's to big? +Shall we go back and see if we can change it? +. +Well we'll just go back and swop it. +Ok. +I don't know what to wear mummy. +Erm +I think I'll wear some trousers. +Do you want to wear Koala? +Ok, thank you. +It isn't very nice is it? +Pardon? +It is a very nice day. +Mm,going to be a nice day. +Yeah. +in the morning nice and sunny, then it came darker. +It's clouded over and it's really quite cold. +Mm. +Getting a bit fed up with this weather. +It'll be nicer we might have gone out, it's I think it'll +I wanted to go to Chimney's it would be nice if it rained at Chimney's cos there, we could go in the pond. +Yeah. +You don't want it to rain. +Pardon? +You don't want it to rain. +Yes we do, cos the little river +Yes, but eh, I think it'll be too cold there, don't want to get Clare cold. +Penthurst. +We've been to Penthurst, I think we're going to have to stay at home. +Mm, neither do I, shall I just leave them? +Ah mummy. +You just word, you used the word shh haven't you? +Mm. +Just used the word what? +Shoosh, haven't you? +Mm. +And another word, you use quite a lot of words don't you? +Walking man that says. +Here , I'll use quite a few more, get your clothes on, you'll get cold. +Get your clothes on. +Yes, then you can come down and read your book, till daddy and Clare come back, god knows when they get back. +Back. +Well they haven't come back yet, have they? +Have they? +They've gone off into Orpington and they, get this tennis racket and we haven't seen them since. +Did you get one? +Got, how much was that? +Erm, fourteen ninety nine. +She said it was a tiny bit small, but,. +What'd you take those for? +Put them in my handbag. +Oh,. +It's quite . +Yes. +Is that from that shop? +Yes. +We've got this picture. +We bought another one, but, back again because eh, it was, it was too . +Mummy where's her cream it's not in her bedroom? +What? +That's a nice one. +Yes. +So she doesn't feel very well? +No. +I've got a temperature. +Mm, a bit warm. +Hang your coat up and then go and have a lie down. +lie down. +I'd thought that was alright ? +Yeah. +Quite nice light one. +Yeah, and the lady just said erm, do you wish to open that one, I said is that the right size? +She put it down my and said well you're . +That's the right size . +Yeah. +Mummy. +Pardon? +Yeah,afterwards. +Oh, that was about the sort of price I was thinking of. +Yeah . +You can't see them at can you? +No you can during the week, but what'll we do, she said well got a buyer take it back to customer services. +Ha, oh I see, oh you bought that one did you? +Yeah, I had to buy one. +Oh. +It's quite nice, thought it'll be bigger than that. +Yeah. +That's quite a nice one for her. +Yeah, well she could do with something. +Mm. +She could do with being taken down to the tennis courts probably and have a knock up. +Mm. +Do you like it? +Yeah, I think that's a good one. +She said that was a bit small. +Well I think it's alright for you. +She, choose another one for about that big, but they got heavy. +Yes, well they will as they get bigger won't they? +So, she said put this down to your ankle and up to here, put it, put that +I, I thought that was erm was very light +Yeah. +some of the small ones. +There's tiny ones that . +I don't think they er were short . +Ah, that looks rather nice. +She nearly made me have that, eh, other one, didn't she? +Mm. +Lower one. +There's this other boy there he choose the colours , he said I'll have that one, that one and that one,said there were. +He really wanted a purple one. +He said this one. +I don't think he wanted that one, but eh, erm, I don't . +Oh I think that'll be alright for you. +Still think it'll still be there? +Wouldn't she? +Will she, that's probably why she didn't want to have the . +Have the +She thought it already.. +Mm, well, yeah think so, they have more there than yesterday. +They had a whole full. +Oh they had yes, they had a lot yesterday but most of them were over a hundred pounds. +price is only . +Mm, that's quite a nice shop. +Yeah,as well. +Mm, good, got to get it right for you. +Mm. +There are others which was bright yellow, blue, and she . +I quite like the purple. +like what? +I like the purple. +Yeah, purple and white. +Mm. +Yeah. +Rack attack. +Some of my friends has got silver in . +They're not quite so girlish. +Oh, I like them. +Yeah. +Yeah. +Well I thought that was the place to go really. +You put one on, in next year, we had two. +Yes I know, they didn't have many. +except the wouldn't let me out there on Saturday. +For a new No. +So daddy bought it instead, it's like, it's like that big and . +No, you better, no, no, no, no, no, you just +Can't I take it off? +No. +Why? +You it. +What's the matter? +Mummy hurts. +Oh, well you put some cream on it. +You can't +I have. +Yes, I mean I can't see much more than that can I? +And it hurts . +been to. +Oh did you? +Yeah, get daddy a chain . +Amy's got a tee shirt, with Sally the cat. +Double U. +Are these for me? +No it's a W for Wilson. +It's an N for me when it goes back. +Amy put your shoes on. +You're not to go round like that, you'll ruin them. +They're very expensive. +They're nice trousers. +No, that's my dress. +Oh. +What's her tee shirt, carefully. +Is that second ? +No it was new. +It looks, it looks like a white one. +She's not allowed a white one for tap. +Oh. +She has to have red for tap, but she wanted a white one. +Why she wanted a white one? +Mm. +You not so good. +You're very thick aren't you,, no you must've stay in probably. +You seemed better yesterday. +I'm . +Oh, has it come over you while you were going round shopping? +. +I saw the twins. +Oh do you. +Oh they've been swimming have they? +I don't know. +Mm, did they see you? +Erm, they . +Oh that's a shame, I thought you'd go out and play with it. +Rack attack. +What you say? +I thought Clare would go out and play with her new racket, she's not really +Nice cake. +mm, not really very well. +You don't any more. +No, well they're aluminium, they won't warp. +Right do you want some lunch? +Yeah, just . +Amy got high +. +Ah, oh the . +No, I don't think anybody failed. +If they failed they get told and they don't get a certificate do they? +No. +And they . +It's ever so loud that. +Do we have to have that on all through lunch? +Please may have a ? +What ? +I think British Gas profits are unbelievable. +They er . +Yeah, they buy gas at eighteen P and they sell it for forty three P. +vast profit and then they . +How come, I mean, why does the big discrepancy? +Why that's what they're charging, never mind the discrepancy. +Who sells it to them at eighteen P? +The oil company. +The oil company. +So why are they allowed to charge forty three P to the consumers? +They're a monopoly aren't they? +I mean what do they do to it to justify charging any more?. +Don't do anything to it. +No,. +Deliver it to your home Well, what I to is the erm, getting involved in . +Cos with British Gas you can't . +Mm yes . +Erm ,yourself on the gas side, because gas itself is not self apart from. +I'd like to go down daddy. +is very small. +Mummy that's . +Have you got the new ones? +No,. +Don't think so. +You, have you? +Have you got the new ones? +No wasting the outside of that one. +Mm, mm. +I can't see a way. +Have you got the new ones? +I think they were thirty five dollars a packet. +I don't know poppet. +Mummy. +Mm. +At we had erm,. +Mm. +I like the . +Yes, we'll have a few. +Think oh it hasn't actually. +Thought you had to put the weight on by law? +Fright in asking what Somebody erm, sell all the stuff, sell . +I wouldn't of thought they needed to. +They don't need to, but, erm, I mean nine, ninety eight per cent of their sales is on sale of gas, so the only way you can make a name for yourself is getting involved in things other than gas, one, installing central heating or kitchen . +talk about it. +The way British Gas get involved. +. +I mean their gas showrooms in the high street. +If you're running a business economically you wouldn't have those. +never anybody in them anyway. +No, but they weren't for them, cos they, doesn't really matter, they've got so much pocket out of gas But the Gas is erm, make them increase prices at five per cent less than the rate of inflation that way . +they get rid of , saying that privatised the price of gas is gone down fourteen per cent in the past . +Has it? +Well, well. +I haven't noticed. +I mean nobody pick him up on that, but I mean, he might mean in real terms with, I don't think he has in real terms. +has gone up. +Oh +Sorry, I was just wondering if you actually asleep or not. +Want a cup of tea? +No. +I should have a cup of tea. +I don't feel well. +You want a cup of tea? +Mummy,on the . +No, I wouldn't bothered. +Why? +Why haven't you? +Yeah, she's nearly asleep. +Was Amy a bit upset when she knew you got highly commended? +Eh? +Did she say anything? +Amy , she say anything about not getting highly commended? +No, not much. +Well I did . +No that was a good girl +Well she got it last time so it's your turn. +I to say, that erm , I would of liked to be highly commend with her, but, I don't really think, not . +I think you better say nothing aren't you. +Chris said she did very well. +Yeah, she was . +I think she's a bit upset, I think she thinks I'm better, I'm better than her because I beat her in that, and I think she's, a bit of shock for her. +Say, ah, what's this . +The children's certificate. +Mm. +Yours only say pass, not highly commended. +We'll have to frame that won't we? +Pardon? +We'll have to frame that. +Mm. +Only all the others got commended, then passed.. +Who was the, who, who do you thinks the best dance in your class? +Me. +Oh dear. +Before the exams, who did you think is the best? +Kate said , but it wasn't, it was me. +What did Katie get? +Highly commended. +Commended I think. +Pardon, oh yes, commended, not highly. +She much of got . +Didn't really look. +Pardon. +Mm, mm. +I didn't really look what the others got. +The . +I think Natalie probably got pass cos she didn't know the dance. +No. +She's erm, she's not very really. +Isn't she? +. +I did too, but because I couldn't, I knew I couldn't, cos I . +And you didn't keep your . +Cos it,come out with , I didn't, it's a, it's not the fat , that's why I didn't do it. +I couldn't believe it, I remembered all the way through. +I did . +because it's getting a,hold your breath. +She thinks we don't have to hold our breath, you do it. +. +You have to it's . +Oh I didn't expect Clare to go down ill again. +Pardon? +She's alright yesterday. +Thursday. +She's O K walking around the . +So,on the way home. +I have for lunch. +I don't think she's really that ill. +She very well . +She looks quite pale. +Does she? +Mm. +Oh. +Mm, she was alright walking around Bromley yesterday. +Pardon? +Yeah she yesterday. +She might have a temperature. +Mm, she seems though she's a bit hot. +Yeah. +I'm opening all of these . +Ah I've won the so I can scream on +Good job we're not going to Jersey tonight. +Mm. +When is it? +Nudge up a bit I mean it could've been tonight. +Is erm,next Saturday? +No, I thought only the was going. +No. +Oh, Diane, Rick are going but later on. +When you say later on, you don't mean later on in the year? +Yeah, I mean, yeah later on in the +No, I told Jenny and I told Caroline, but +Yeah. +It gets a bit involved. +Oh, I don't like to see just . +No. +One thing . +No, I'll put that back. +I mean I thought she'd had something but she's, don't want anything. +Didn't have a cup of tea. +a cup of tea on its own She was quite pleased with her t-shirt. +Seen it? +Mm, what is it? +Oh. +over her leotard, so we kept, we bought one, they said oh, you know, you want a fairly big one, so they , well it looked alright across here, when we got it home, she tried it on, it was nearly down to her knees. +When we opened it up it was aged nine to eleven, and she said I can't go in this. +So we had to go back and swap it for seven to eight +I don't suppose . +No, nine to ten was far too big. +They said well they have them loose, yes, but she said they don't have them right down there. +What do you want with money +Well there was a sale at eh +Oh,. +Yes, some second hand stuff, I +it's sold? +No. +What'll do with it? +No I mean, I think you just leave it there and let come around again. +I don't know how much gets sold, it's all a bit of a, I mean there's no room, it's only a very small anti-room isn't it? +Oh it's in there? +Yeah because the erm, lessons are going on in there. +So it's all very, you know, on top of each other. +I mean there's no point in the stuff sitting here, if they need it. +No point in me hanging on to the stuff, cos the baby's grown out of it, that's it, isn't it? +Mm. +Arthur was saying some of the second hand stuff at Bromley High is quite good. +Quite good. +Mm. +How do you mean? +There's a second hand sale, there's eight Lego's, two +Oh, I see. +Yeah +Feel like saying well if you're in charge of it, just keep a set that will fit Clare in her size and we'll have it. +Been to an antique fair. +Yes, yes, he's organised it Chris has had to go to work for two days this week. +. +What over half term? +Mm, well, they in an office, so +Get some money and +I'll have some,a bit. +Want some? +Are you gonna have another cup? +Then they go for a month to a, Sue's going on a computing course for a day on the tenth of June, the date Clare goes to Brompton, Isle of Wight, so I'll have to bring them home. +Well she wants me to take them and bring them home, but I said look, you know, I've got, Clare's got to be at school for half past eight on that Monday. +Yeah. +I erm, and I'd rather take Caroline because I think it would be good for her to have +Yeah. +I can't get Catherine and Deborah and Caroline and Amy and Clare and all their luggage +Well, I'm not quite sure, to, it's erm, run by the, one of these agencies. +By an agency? +Mm. +Whether it's going on what's available or +Mm . +Suppose she thought she could probably get them to school, but can't bring them home. +What . +I don't really want to be cope with Deborah and Catherine the day Clare goes off to Isle of Wight do we? +No +Though, she seems very keen to have a job, that . +. +You seemed to rather a lot for her. +Yes +Well I . +I thought she's going to call . +Is John at work or is he, he starts on Monday? +I think he starts on the tenth, I think he starts that that day. +Mm. +or something. +Mm Yeah, I mean, a lot of us could do with a month off. +Mm. +It's better when Deborah's only started school, so +Yes. +so easy. +Hello my pet, I don't like to see you like this. +I say it's a good job we're not going to Joseph's tonight. +Mhm.. +Mm I think you're a bit, think you're a bit hot, that's probably what's wakening you up . +Mm. +I think you've got a slight temperature, not a lot, but, just a little bit, do you think you can manage a drink of orange? +Well you ought to drink something, it'll bring your temperature down and it'll help make you feel better. +The only thing is to drink. +Can I a little bit of orange? +I'll drink the rest, in a minute. +Well try and drink it cos, you drink a bit, it'll bring this temperature down. +You haven't got much of a temperature, but it's just slightly up. +Slightly warm. +It makes you feel very lethargic . +Yes. +Miserable doesn't it, temperature. +Oh shame as you've just got your tennis racket, I thought you'd be out in the garden around. +I'm just glad we aren't going, I mean we could easily of had to go tonight. +You'd feel just like going up to London wont you? +Mm. +Hope you're better next week Just put a bit of wallpaper up in your bedroom, then you can. +Don't like seeing . +Mm. +You didn't seem too bad this morning. +Put . +Mum. +So does she go anywhere near these B and Q or Homebase,. +What? +B and Q and Homebase. +Yes, I knew you were better on, you up Thursday night didn't you? +Then you were alright yesterday, you were alright going round Bromley, you didn't really seem to have any awful after effects did you? +Mm. +Thought you'd recovered +It's a nice . +I can't keep anything up.. +you've got this catarrh, haven't you? +Mm,. +Well if you don't get better at the beginning of the week, we'll have to take you and eh, get you some antibiotics, cos I don't want you ill. +What happens if I am ill at the Isle of Wight like this? +Ready. +Well I don't think, I don't know, somebody will stay at the hotel with you I expect. +Well hopefully you'll be alright. +You've just all seemed you've got rather catarrhed haven't we? +I mean I've got it as well. +Mm, I didn't feel very well on Tuesday or Thursday. +. +Feel better tomorrow and be ill on Monday. +Hope not. +No. +Well I mean it ought to have gone by next week, but be alright. +If you're not better by sort of Tuesday, Wednesday we'll have to go to the doctor's get you some antibiotics. +How do you have antibiotics, in water? +Yes, if, well sometimes it's medicine. +The norm it's medicine. +Oh. +Do you feel O K? +Yeah, I feel a bit lethargic, but don't feel like doing a lot, but +wanted to do . +Yeah, I don't feel like going to London Zoo or anything. +Mm or anything strenuous, but otherwise I feel alright. +Why don't you ? +I don't know, you're sort of half dozing aren't you? +Mm. +Have another little bit of your drink, Amy will you come and read a bit of your book to me? +Pardon? +Can you read a bit of your book? +You have a rest, I mean that's all you can do really isn't it? +What a nuisance. +Pardon? +Is there anything on T V later? +Well you've got the book, so No we're on this one now. +The erm, the, the Derby. +Saturday, well it's Grandstand all afternoon. +What's on Grandstand? +Mm, show jumping at four twenty five, motor racing. +Is there nothing on after this? +Flying Doctors, That's Show Business, You've Got To Be Joking. +Is there nothing on I T V? +There's a, there's an Indian drama on B B C two with English subtitles, it's in Hindi, that'll be interesting for you. +Half A Sixpence, oh you'll probably quite like that, that's here. +Now? +Mm. +Tommy, Tommy Steele, like to sit up? +That's Tommy Steele. +Where's the book? +Mm. +Here. +Mm. +He's a lot older than that now. +Come on, you can read your book. +Mm, let's wipe the tape. +Puff the Magic Dragon +lives by the sea. +For the story of the pink +The story of the pink, yes. +See the little chaffinch? +Pardon? +See the little chaffinch? +Yeah. +It was . +It was like autumn, Pink the chaffinch was his friend, we hurry, so they flew off to a field where the corn had been thrashed. +Threshed. +What's threshed? +Mm, I think it's been cut and, they have to stretch it to get the actual bits of corn out of the middle of the seed, don't want the husk. +Threshed , in the , E, E, A, S. +In the heat. +Heat of chaff. +Chaff? +Mm, that's what the outside of the grain of corn is called. +It is and not the word . +They had all the grain of which they needed for a good breakfast to finish +breakfast, to finish. +off the meal they eat some . +Thistle. +Thistle? +Thistle, yes, it's a thistle. +That's hard isn't it ? +Yeah. +Pink and, and +Pink was +Pink was a handsome bird, have cup +His cap. +His cap. +Was da daler. +Dull. +Dal. +Dull. +He +His cap was dull. +Blue. +Blue. +And his back was brown and his chest was a lovely rosy brown, there. +Mm, it's a pinky brown isn't it? +Mm. +He had buns. +He had +Bands. +Bands. +of white of his wings. +On his wings. +Mm, and when he blew he showed off more white feathers in his tail and little hen chaffinch always keeps near to Pink. +She was quite dark, she had no rosy breast and not a song worth, what's that say? +Not a song worth +Worth singing. +Pink took at very little boy not +notice. +notice of her, who's Pink? +The chaffinch isn't it? +Why's he called Pink? +Mm? +I didn't know he was called Pink. +Ah, winter came and it rain much colder, snow fell and covered everything Pink +Covered everything. +Pink. +and his friends could not find any of the seeds they liked to eat, they, they were hungry now and eat glad +Gladly. +gladly and +The +the corn +Crumbs. +crumbs. +A fat,came. +Fat. +Kind people put out for them, they were expecting +Especially. +especially glad when people put out dishes of water. +Why? +everything is frozen over they don't get any water do they? +Oh it's a long story that one. +Mm, I want to read all of it. +Pink's beautiful feathers grow dull, why did they grow dull? +Again he's probably not eating the right things. +And dirty in all the rain and fog. +He longed for the white spring days, at last the morning were light +At last the mornings were lighter. +were lighter. +The began to see to each other, I believe winter has gone, some of the days were quite warm and Pink started to pressured? +To practice. +Practice the song he knew. +They were not very good at the, he had forgotten all the best bits. +Then it really was spring the apples orchard was in flower. +Pink, Pink shouted the chaffinches to each other, oh Pink what a day +What a lazy. +lazy fellow is could lean +Never. +never , get to his singing as early as the blackbirds, the +As, as early as the blackbirds and thrushes. +thrushes, but ever +Even. +even so he was singing l long before spring +Sun. +spla +Sunrise. +rise he lovely, loved +Loved. +to sing and from time to time all from +All through. +through the day, his +Call. +call rang out. +Why did they have pink on it, that's why it's called Pink? +Mm. +That's why he's called Pink, I think. +He loved bathing. +Bathing. +Oh bath bathing. +Well it's called bathing isn't it? +You don't say I'm going to have a bathing. +I'm going bath, I'm going bathing. +Bathing to the winter fog. +Did you find it? +Yes. +He made his feathers dirty so he liked +So he looked. +For. +for one of those deep puddles made by the spring rain. +He dripped his +He dipped. +he, he dipped his head, that's what I said +Mm. +under the splash +Under and splashed. +the water all over his self with the wings, with his wings, then he flew up into a tree to tie +Tidy. +tidy his feathers and dry in the sun. +His feather grow white every day until his breast was a good all colour. +Pink thought to himself I very fine bird. +He, and, he wanted a friend to admire him +Mm, good girl. +and listened to his songs, he every +He even. +He thought of making a nest +I think that's for little babies isn't it? +Yeah. +What you say? +He lady. +They're not the same birds +Mm, I think they're supposed to be. +cos that ones horrible and dirty with +Well that's the lady bird and they're never so pretty as the men birds. +Aren't they? +No, not the birds. +Why? +It's always men that have the pretty colours. +Are you going to read this page? +One day he remembered the hen chaffinch thought +That. +that had flower +That had flown. +flown with him in the nest +In the. +in the winter and +She. +she was nice so, she would admire his fine colours and did not seem much herself, so, she wanted +So she would. +would listen to him, she is a wife I want Pink thought. +Thought Pink, the little hen was pleased, she too wanted to make a nest. +Pink took her to the garden and showed her the rose arch. +Mm. +Look, oh yes that's it, dear. +Look my dear. +My dear, he said, this seems a good place for a nest. +Why does it seem a good place for a nest?. +Don't think she thinks much of it. +He no nobody +Nodded. +Nobody +She nodded. +nodded but looked at an apple tree over the hedge. +The next day they began to build the nest in the apple tree. +Is that the apple tree? +No, here's the apple tree, I think that's the rose arch, but she didn't think that was such a good idea, and she was probably quite right. +Pardon? +She was probably quite right. +This one . +Yeah, here we are. +The little hen worked all day getting moss and wood and bind up those +These. +These put in a heap with +Where. +where two branches met. +When they +When they're. +there were +Enough. +enough to set it +She sat. +there was enough, she she sat in flat of it and pushed herself r round and round, soon then there was . +Was shaped. +shaped like a cup with bright +She bought, brought. +she brought more moss still and pressed into shape with in the same way. +Turning herself round and round +Have we nearly finished? +Yes you nearly finished. +Good. +Mm. +I wish you wouldn't keep trying +Turning. +turning round and round like that said Pink. +You make me feel quite dizzy. +Don't watch then she answered chaffinch +Cheerfully. +cheerfully, why don't you sit in the tree and sing to me, when all the moss and, was in place the chaffinch went to find her hair. +Horse hair +Horse hair. +What's horse hair? +What, horse hair from the horses tail I should think. +Horse hair. +Horse hair for lying +For the lining. +lining the inside of the nest. +What's that? +Can I keep +Mm, make it nice and soft I should think. +It's beautiful sang Pink, how well it shows up Greg's +Against. +against the branches. +Shows up said wife, little and +With a, with a little . +with a little , mummy +Green. +Green +Don't want it to show up, does she. +Why? +Well cos then it will be obvious and cats might come up and get the eggs or something. +it must do. +It mustn't do that. +Do that. +She doesn't want it to show up. +Why, he looks a bit sad. +I don't think he's doing very much do you? +No. +I think he's letting his wife do all the work. +Yes. +She flew to an old gate and picked +And pecked. +pecked of picked +Pieces. +pieces of grey +Lichen. +lichen. +Those she took, shook +Stuck. +stuck on +saves watching Half a Sixpence. +Oh is she . +Yeah, well, hm, don't think she's up too much, so, got Tommy Steele in it so she might as well he looks a bit younger . +Does he? +About twenty years ago, wasn't it? +Yeah,. +Right, shall I go and get. +Yeah. +Changed. +Yeah. +Lucky on it, it'll be quite nice. +Yeah. +See what it looks like,How are you pet? +This quite good? +Well, about your level today isn't it? +About your hm. +Need watering a bit, have those back up there and really you seem even worse than oh were going to go and do your bedroom. +Try and get that drink drunk. +Yep do we want the stuff to fill the holes with? +I don't know whether we did really to be honest, don't worry,. +Poly filler. +Poly filler and eh. +Got some sand paper. +I'm not going . +Put it on the bed or something. +Put it on the bed. +Wants some poly uhum some sand paper? +. +Is it alright? +With the uhum, the putty knife. +Oh right. +. +Yeah. +I said the putty knife. +What's the putty knife? +flat . +What, that one? +. +Well I don't know, I don't know where your putty knife is. +It's . +It's the what? +Have too guess. +Well I don't know, they all look the same to me. +I'm a bit upset if she's not very well though. +Seems to happen. +She's was alright . +Hm,very well on Thursday. +No she wasn't. +No. +And then she perked up in the evening, I think she wanted to play tennis and then she was alright Friday. +I don't like these things that you don't seem to get rid off and they just come back when you least want them. +Hm . +I was very glad were not, we we could easily of been going to tonight. +Hm +We want the tape measure won't we? +We must of have plenty of pencils up here I would think. +have we got the we haven't got the thing to draw a straight line have we? +Is that. +That's in the, that's in the box in the corner. +What in that bluey what the box a box or uhum in your little cupboard. +Hm in the kitchen cupboard. +Yeah. +Oh it's quite useful that Half a Sixpence is on. +Yeah, they both watching it? +No Amy won't watch television. +What she doing? +Playing with her marbles. +Right . +I must get round to getting end of uhum curtain material. +Yeah . +Yes, I quite like that pink and white stripe one. +I quite like somewhere I could get uhum a cover for the bed to match. +Look quite nice wouldn't it? +. +We'd better measure it on the other wall, hadn't we? +It'll be wet. +Yeah . +Let's see. +Tape measures there some where. +So we have to do that. +Oh better measure other. +What's it twenty one? +Twenty and a half. +. +uhum, couldn't you go up in the other corner. +. +I can't cos that's left handed for me. +. +I can work that way, I've got to go the other way. +. +Can't you unhook it? +Does it unhook at the end? +get the right length . +And then it goes up under any way. +Twenty should be alright and just half an inch to go round the corner. +Well it's certainly different paper. +Yeah. +Hm But it's quite good paper because it's got all the colours in it so you could put any thing with it can't you? +Yeah . +I didn't think . +You thought this was a big bedroom till you started trying to get. +. +Amy Johnson's a funny little one. +She was a,going to see Joseph's. +Yeah. +Dream Coat next week end. +Yeah. +And she said, with Jason Donovan, I said oh do you like Jason Donovan? she said oh yes I've seen that with Jason Donovan. +Oh she said I've seen Jason Donovan in that, so I said well I don't think you have cos it didn't start till today. +Yeah. +I have, I saw it a while ago with daddy. +Yeah. +I said yes, but I don't think it was actually Jason Donovan, oh it was, yes, it was Jason Donovan and I've got the paper all along, I give up in the end . +Yeah +Very definite young lady . +Is she?. +Oh yes, ooh she wasn't going to have it that we were going to see it, cos she hasn't seen that particular one. +Do they, get on alright together? +Well, yes I think so. +Yeah. +I don't think Amy Johnson will be over pleased that she that Amy get's better than she is , no. +She is . +But Amy's very tactful so I just didn't say any thing. +Yeah. +No she's quite, well I told her not to. +I mean this, the children are two young to have there noses rub with it, especially Amy Johnson, that wouldn't go down well, but eh, she's quite good, she doesn't sort of. +. +Can you measure it down that one or. +Yeah. +Is it going to stick?. +. +You know what the +. +I presume that that's the top wouldn't you? +At the beginning of a roll, and I would almo +In both ways or. +Yeah, I would almost say that upside down, there seems to be more flowers going down than up don't they? +The pink ones going down, the blue ones going down. +. +Does it look better the other way up does it? +. +Don't you? +Yes. +I think the majority. +. +Alright. +. +Yeah, I think some one way, some the other, look lovely. +. +Yeah. +It's not a very big pattern drops any rate. +It is different paper isn't it? +Yeah. +Thank you. +Her mummy was saying, you know Michelle, aunty Monica's daughter. +Yeah. +There in dire straights now. +. +Pardon? +In what respect, financially? +Yeah, they think there've got to sell the house and get out. +Why's that? +Why, they owe six thousand pounds on the various cards. +Cards? +Yeah, huh, I think there way behind on the mortgage. +does Michelle work? +Well she did work full time in London, but she said that was to much for her so she's, she didn't work at all, now she's gone back to work three days a week in Orpington I think. +She's got what, two children. +Yes, but Ross gave up his job as a uhum, he was in with the Leeds, which was a bit stupid because he must of got a cheaper mortgage I should think. +Yeah. +To become an insurance sales man. +Oh. +And of course I don't think he would do any good at it, his quite a quite, shy. +. +And I mean it's not easy at the moment any way, is it? +No. +Even for the pushiest But I mean, they've they were owing money years ago, they sort of said there having Christmas on Access. +oh it's a shame when you lose your house though isn't it? +Yep. +. +Yeah, this is the top. +Ah, I reckon that sticks a lot better, doesn't it? +be easier to tear I think. +Yeah, it's not very thick, well it's got no strength in it has it? +No. +But uhum, it sticks, whilst the other one just curls straight back up at the edges didn't it. +Yeah. +Dreadful. +But doing this, you know, what ever it's like, it, the other one was hopeless +Be interesting this one. +Yeah, at least you get a bit more of a how long you got a you got a , I mean I couldn't cope with , I mean I'm not pleased with it now I've done it. +No. +Otherwise it get's sore, but then every time I walk in there I can see every joint a lot better. +Mind you, you just have to learn, you can only, you've got to put the paper up that sticks haven't you? +Hm. +Got a sort of sheen on it hasn't it? +Hm. +And there not that small any more are they? +I mean, you know there not going to go round with a felt tip pen. +No. +There better not. +. +Hm. +Yeah I'll have it that way, I don't like it the other way up. +Most of the flowers are the wrong way. +Darling there is a joi a pattern. +. +Well it isn't for me. +. +. +And then you fold, you paste the bottom first, then you fold that up. +Well I thought wall paper ought to stick because wall paper was on Amy's bedroom. +Yeah. +You know, ordinary wall that was just, just wall paper wasn't it? +Yeah. +And eh that just stuck and the joins were alright It just took so long before as well didn't it. +It did. +Can I have the scissors? +Thank you. +I mean I not very happy with the lounge either. +No I'm not. +Just glad we didn't do the hall. +Driven me mad that would. +Or our bedroom. +Pardon. +Or our bedroom. +Hm +Funny though I mean I've never known problem before. +No. +It's not as if the house is terribly old or any thing that the plasters, even . +It isn't just the plaster is it,. +Yeah, it was all the new walls as well. +I mean it hasn't done it any good all the in Amy's bedroom where where it had to put the copydex it's all got brownish and, hasn't it? you can see where the. +. +Hm, yeah, it's not, it's not quite the same colour, you can see where the copydex has been. +Well it doesn't like vinyl paper for some reason. +No, it'll dry out . +Yeah It wasn't that it wasn't the lumps that bothered me it was the uhum, the fact that the edges just doesn't stay down. +Yeah. +I think I might cut another piece of paper, the side won't stay flat. +Huh, I'm quite please about that. +Annoying when your not pleased with when you spent all your time doing it and then your not pleased with it . +Yeah . +Splendid. +Yeah.. +. +Yeah I thought, just thought you might want to get behind it. +Ga- Gary's off the . +Hm, well he doesn't tell me either. +. +Well you probably lose a bit, it's not sticking properly to the wall. +Is that when you take it round and eh . +Take what round? +What, you know, round the corner, and keep it straight. +oh I see what you mean. +Another one after that rather than cutting . +where you've got some in there it won't matter. +No. +You're alright. +Right. +Nowhere near, half I should think. +Oh dear. +Come on at it. +So matches this side, not to low, it's to low on the other bit,. +Is it? +Hm +Watch your elbow on that cos you could knock it off couldn't you?. +What . +Hm +Hm, hm. +Thank you. +Is Clare still awake? +Did you go down? +Yeah, yeah, she's a. +Right, I mean that's the time when a video is useful. +Right. +She's not really well enough to do any thing is she? +No. +It's it's a bit boring for her just to lye there. +Got video's down here a hundred and fifty pound . +. +I don't really know how much we we use it really. +No, no, I mean I wouldn't a video to . +I mean I mean during the week she never, she's going to get to the stage except that Chris is taking Amy to ballet, she won't see Neighbours at all. +. +No. +Don't want to come down too hard on her. +She misses it on Monday cos she goes to flute, she misses it, she wa- she sees it on Tuesday cos Chris takes Amy to ballet, she was, she misses it on Wednesday cos she goes skiing, she misses it on Thursday because we have to take Amy to uhum Brownies, she misses it on Friday cos of Amy's swimming. +. +No, no she doesn't want to watch, I thing honestly when she comes home from school she's tired out. +Yeah. +But, you know she just puts it on, she doesn't want to do any thing for a hour or so and just sit and recover. +I don't think you can really grumble. +Has she not I mean she never watches it after tea if you notice, she'll always go out and play or something. +I know. +She'll watch it half an hour in the evening before she goes to bed if she gets the chance. +She doesn't watch all that, she doesn't watch all that much really I think she gets more tired than Amy in a way. +Hm.. +I think Clare lives more on her nerves. +Hm. +And that when she comes home, cos she's you know, had enough. +Are we going that way next? +Well I . +, this is when you'll need a plumb line for that won't you? +Yeah. +Is it a very good plumb, oh you've got plumb line for the top and the bottom haven't you?and hope. +. +Ah and the next piece is going to go over the window. +Yeah. +So you need it. +Yeah. +It down to get the line at the bottom . +Yeah , yeah.. +You won't . +Oh it's quite pretty. +That's about right cos you wouldn't want a big pattern in a room this size would you? +No. +. +I tell you what, eh you wouldn't get any. +twenty. +Yes Steven's not having a particularly good week for his holidays is he? +No he isn't.. +Yeah. +I wouldn't be at all impressed with it. +Oh Deborah was moaning cos she went to a party the other last one this week, I think at the beginning of the week, and the had Joey the clown and Mr Nuttey, she said oh I'd like them, but Sue said she went sort of a bit earlier and see how they got on and eh, she said oh it wasn't the same at five, they didn't respond and. +Yeah. +You know they were much quieter, it didn't go with a swing that Amy's. +How old is Clare, she's a bit older? +She's six. +She has it six, seven and eight. +Yeah. +Cos she said she thought, you know, they needed to be a bit older. +Yeah. +I mean she's talking about it and I said well I thought at five they were probably a bit young. +Hm. +We haven't, we didn't have it till they were six. +Deborah apparently wasn't pleased. +That's right,. +How are you then pet? +Hm. +You've got a bit of colour back now. +Hm. +Could you could you manage another drink? +What was sue on the phone for? +She want's the uhum eh the plates and things for the party. +When she . +A bit later on. +Said she was very sorry. +Hm. +Whole poached egg in +Mummy, mummy look. +Mummy. +Oh poppet obviously going to . +Can I . +Yeah, she looks as though she's got a bit more colour and she says she feels a bit better. +. +Oh I think you better cut, she's watching Kipps, says quite good, Half a Sixpence, she says it's quite good. +Enjoying it. +Would you like to come and cut this bit, cos it's left handed. +Which bit? +The top. +Yeah . +Oh That bits left handed. +I can't, I can't left handed with right handed scissors can I? +Oh no, no, you seem better at left handed than I did. +Right, is that level? +Yeah? +No, I don't mean that, I mean here. +Oh there. +I not the top. +It's gonna brighten up now. +Yeah it is. +Well it seems to me, if you cut it, if you put that one there, then this other piece, it'll use to do in there. +What other piece? +Well, if we cut a piece round there. +Yeah. +And the other piece that we got could do that one, that piece in there. +Ah, you not, yes, alright. +Ok . +Well I mean half a bottle to do the top and the down, you can do that bit, measure if you like. +Yeah, ok, if you can measure it, then I can cut off... +Can't tell whether that's going to reach or not. +I don't think it is, I think, no, I think you've got to come down another pattern. +Oh that one down then . +Got what you want? +Yeah. +. +Couldn't really see in the corner whether it was going, so tight. +Shall I go and get the other scissors out of the cut the right side. +Yes. +Okay. +Right, now you've got a bit to match it with. +Yeah, that looks. +Well that bit was wrong. +What bit was wrong? +That bit. +Why was it wrong? +Well it's the wrong pattern, up side down for a start, with the other piece of +Right, so I have to . +Hm Well your on that side and it's half an inch too short isn't it? +Let's have a go with a this roll down here then. +Haven't much choice have you? +No I haven't. +Where I'm going to sleep? +Your going to sleep wall paper. +No I'm not +. +sort of sort of just North of that Blue one. +Sort of across there and then. +Across there. +Hm. +. I know it's not the easiest thing to measure is it? +Hello +Hello how what do you think? +It's nice. +It goes on a lot better than Amy's. +Does it? +Yeah. +Do you like their suit. +What? +Do you like their shell suit? +Like whose? +Deborah's and Catherine's? +Am I sleeping in here? +Yeah. +Or not up there? +Yeah, I mean wallpaper, you don't have to stay away from it. +Didn't you, I mean, it's not like paint. +There what d'you think? +Gone up quite well. +Pardon? +It's gone up quite well. +Yeah. +You can see the joins though . +Well you won't so much when it's dried. +Hm. +You can't see them very well.. +You've still got the tape recorder on. +I know Oh I've got to get these tapes used up. +All of them? +Oh no, I don't think I should use all of them, about half of them I should think. +Ten, how many you on? +Seven I think. +Eight,eight. +Does it? +Oh well, I'm on eight, I've done seven. +I've only got to do it to the end of today so, I don't think I'm going to use twenty do you? +No. +Oh, fed up with this aren't you? +Hm What's doing in my . +He's written Clare's room, wallpapered on the first of June, that's a bit optimistic, by Helen and Alistair. +I done that writing. +Probably. +What daddy's like. +Anyway makes it look a little smarter doesn't it, than with a green carpet, it'll look nice, yes. +I can't choose another carpet can I? +No. +It looks better all the same colour instead of some walls green, some walls white. +Yeah. +So I assume Half a Sixpence is finished. +Was it good? +Yeah. +Quite a nice film. +It's a weird story. +I had to do that for O'level. +What? +That story. +Writing? +No I had to study the book. +Why? +Well for English literature they set you so many books to study, that was one of them. +a stupid book . +questions . +Yes, from all the characters and +Pardon. +From all the characters and how they fitted into the story. +Did you pass? +Only just . +I don't like that book at all, it was a book. +What other books are there? +You have a Shakespeare play, you had Silas Marner I think I quite liked that one. +I had one of J- uhum, oh I can't remember his name, another play. +George Bernard Shaw. +Hm,. +Thought that was fairly silly as well. +That was four, I think that was probably all I had, two books, two plays, it's quite enough. +What're you having for dinner? +Chicken casserole, and you can have a little bit. +. +Well you look better than you did, you've got some colour in your face now. +I'll have a tiny bit. +You can have a little bit of something to eat +Hopefully I'll be better tomorrow. +I hope so poppet. +Hope to get you back to school on Monday, it seems awful if you've had a week off and then your not well. +Yeah. +This was all a bit sudden, I though you were better. +Hm Have you finished yet? +Well I need daddy to a start along there . +Why can't you? +Well the light has got to come off and you've got to drop a perpendicular so that you know, cut the paper straight, it helps if you put it up straight instead of wonky. +Pardon? +What did she say? +Why, she want's the crates and the things for the party. +. +Well she, I told her you weren't very well, she was very sorry Didn't say a lot else. +. +Well not really, yet at the moment. +We might need it yet to do another bit. +You got enough roll's? +I don't know yet. +I shall tell when we get to the end.. +Want to come down stairs? +I'm all dirty, I was really waiting for daddy to come back up. +. +. +If I go down that'll be even more ages won't it? +Why? +Hm cos I shall have to talk as well +There's nothing on T V. +Isn't there? +Don't think so . +No. +What do you think? +Can't decide whether I like those shell suits or not really. +What? +I can't decide whether I like those shell suits or not, you know, sort of thing. +Colour you mean. +No, I meant in general. +. +I think. +I don't like the . +Hm. +. +I think a lot of them have, has Amy's got a hood? +No. +Hasn't it? +. +Hm. +The uhum, C & A's has a lot of them, went down there looking for some shoes for Amy. +Did you get . +No, she wanted some flip flops, but they didn't have any there either, but they had a lot of shell suits, cos I thought it was skiing ones at first. +Hm. +I thought they were skiing one's at first, and then I . +. +There suppose to be quite warm I think. +I think there wind proof aren't they? +The chain,. +No, don't worry. +Pardon. +I wouldn't worry, I think they can sort it out. +I don't think it's gonna last her long cos she pulls at it. +Does she? +Why? +Cos she doesn't leave any thing like that alone, does she? +. +Well she pulls, fiddles with any thing, doesn't she? +She got tee shirt. +Catherine? +Oh yeah, did before Amy. +Amy Johnson's got a brace now, she doesn't speak very well with it. +Doesn't she,why? +I don't know, just a band, you know round, like you had in. +Oh. +But she lisps, it's in her way she's got , doesn't talk very clearly. +. +Well, she didn't have it last time I saw her, she's got it now. +So I suppose she got it some time this week. +. +No. +What's the result guv? +He says money's a bit scarce at the moment. +What . +. +Oh, well, there've just had a whole new di- bedroom suite. +yes. +Oh, I presume his getting paid Going to lap that over? +That why he did his own decorating. +. +Your not getting as much of this new job. +That means the car goes back on. +No, I think he he says taking over the car lease. +Oh. +. +. +. +Buy a new one. +No matching up to do here. +No not really. +Is that alright? +It's not far out is it? +What that lot out I think. +. Alright. +There's too many fingers in the way isn't there? +Well if we put a cut in here that might . +. +Oh no, I want these,. +Just cut it . +Where's this off -here? +Hm. +. Yes . +. +Yes, but I can't make the. +You can't just pull that across, might look a long way out . +It's wrong, as from there, that's where it starts to go wrong. +Here. +Hm . +It's not easy is it? +. I suppose what we should of done is, done the next one along the drop down there and then matched it all up backwards isn't it? +Hm. +No, we do the next one. +I don't think it'll be a bad idea, I don't think I can match this one off, do you? +Well it's never going to go straight and it's going to put the whole lot out isn't it? +What was that? +He was saying he doesn't do any so his into the eh . +Well he doesn't even take it. +No. +. +Very high yesterday. +Ah yes, yeah his got two point three litres . +Yeah, I bet he hasn't sort of tried to talk has he?. +Right. +, if you hang that one and then will put this one up too it. +That one worked fine. +Oh, good. +Right. +I think it'll probably got the other one. +Do what? +I think I've got another one. +The other one, completing the other.. +Yeah. +Right. +. +Right, so if I cut the top of this. +So I think we put the, take the other one off and paper it. +. +It doesn't at that section. +Haven't got any underlay for her . +There's gonna be wastage there isn't there? +Hm. +Unless there join a . +Oh I think not. +Got to join it across the . +I suppose . +can't turn it around . +Uhum. +the door way I think. +Width of the door. +And I don't , can see where your going to have a strip the width of the room and add on the width of the door on the end. +So they cut it off and re-join it. +Cut it off where?. +Front. +. +Yes, I mean you've no choice you got to . +Oh . +Just how many joins you'd have otherwise. +Well,. +About . +You haven't lost a . +How long is it sixty feet? +Seventy isn't it? +Yeah. +. +. +I mean oh use to run it length ways and then the width is fixed isn't it? +Have a lot of waste. +Hm. +How wide is it? +Well it's not ten foot wide is it? +the uhum seven foot wide, I should think, it's never six foot six. +So if the carpet was four foot wide you could. +. +. +I talked to John earlier. +Did he say what he'd been doing with himself? +Well . +. +I can't remember what that . +Well, yes, it's, it's quite narrow isn't it at the back. +Just about get a, about three or four one. +Yeah. +There a replaced . +Hm. +Mind you there whole garden looks a bit. +Hm. +Bit difficult you know. +No doesn't pay for the does it?. +Hm.. +Well there've got Michael . +. +It's tree. +It's all along the back isn't it? +. +Trouble is if we don't lay a patio he . +Unless he lays it behind the garage. +. +Hm.. +What're you doing now? +If it doesn't rain I'll get a bit in the garden . +. +If it doesn't rain I'll get a bit done in the garden tomorrow. +Get some plants . +Yeah. +Is she, she sounds . +Well they took her at the there was a I was gonna give one . +Got one with a bigger bit gave . +She hasn't had any thing think to eat since she had that biscuit. +. +Oh, it's quite hard work isn't it? +I. +The trouble is you know she's get and have a good go at it, it's not worth it with all the . +. Cheese cake had . +. +No I don't think she does, I, no need for putting it off. +No. +She's dying to go out and play with her tennis racket. +She isn't very well. +No. +Oh, I just hope she does get better next week. +. The weather is so dreadful isn't it? +. +Yes. +Sue said it rained on Gregory's birthday last year. +Did it?. +Did you say that?dead lucky, never of done last three years it's rained. +Oh it was quite useful to find Half a Sixpence . +No. +she's not really a, sick for long. +Give her any thing else? +No she's . +I thought for ten pence a week that was not bad rubbish. +Wouldn't say a lot for it, but I don't think ten pence out of the way any way. +Hm. + +Mr , do have a seat. +What can I do for you this morning? +Well I seem to have a sore throat I can't get rid of. +I've had it +three week, I've got bad breath and it's all like coming down here and in my ear. +But the thing that concerned me, my little lad's had tonsillitis three times on the trot. +And I'm +wondering whether it's I'm giving it to him, to him or what. +I don't know whether I am or not. +Is he giving it to you, or are you giving it him. +I don't know but he can't shake it off. +He's had antibiotics right, three times, and he's still got it. +Have a quick look at your right ear, your left one looks fine. +What job do you do? +Er well I'm, I'm not working at the moment, cos I've hurt my back. +Oh right. +I've got arthritis of hips and +You haven't been down drains or anything like that of late? +No. +No. +Stick your tongue out. +Say ah. +Ah. +Still can't see much. +You smoke? +No. +Any false teeth? +No. +right. +Open mouth for me. +Say ah. +Ah. +Yes, very nasty looking. +Okay, let's have a quick look around the rest of your mouth. +Would you breathe out for me. +Yeah. +Breath is fine. +It's usually in the morning when it's really +Yeah. +really s I've been to dental hygiene cos I thought +Yeah. +it were my teeth, but she says +No. +you've got no problem there. +No, I suspect what's happening is the, the stuff that's oozing out of your tonsils is what you're tasting, and +Yeah. +is what is making the horrible taste. +So your breath is fine, your teeth are fine, your gums are fine, your tongue's fine, but your tonsils look very unhealthy, they really do look nasty. +And you can see little beads of pus oozing out. +I think you've got a really nasty infection down there. +Yeah. +Okay. +coming under +Yeah. +the armpit. +You know +Yeah. +and round +Yeah. +here, I don't whether +Yeah. +any? +Yeah, the inflammation will often spread down here and make you feel grotty. +Yeah. +Now you rea fo w with a story like this you really need a erm a, a decent does of antibiotics and given the of the unpleasant taste and the pus you can see, ordinary penicillin probably won't do the trick, so we need to use something with a bit more oomph +Yeah. +than that. +And that's what I suggest we do. +You're not allergic to anything you know of are you? +No. +Okay. +Do you pay for your prescriptions? +Yeah. +Right. +And antiseptic mouthwash of some sort might be a good idea. +Well I've been using that what you buy from +Oh good, yeah. +Keep going, keep going, gargle. +chemist and I've also had a throat spray. +Yeah. +Gargling will help, just to sort of clean out any gunge that's accumulating. +That's it, that's the reason for using it. +You won't actually make the tonsils better any quicker, but it will help to prevent some of the taste and the gunge. +Yeah. +This is a penicillin antibiotic. +It's been sort of turbo charged +Yeah. +by something extra with it. +Th one three times a day, for seven days. +You can take it with food, after food, between meals, makes no odds. +Y you can take +Yeah. +paracetamol, if you're getting hot and achy. +Yeah. +You can erm yeah. +You can still drink alcohol if you want to, it doesn't interfere with anything, okay. +Yeah. +The side effects of penicillin, the commonest one is loose motion. +So if your bowels go a bit loose, don't be +Yeah. +too concerned. +But I'd very surprised if that doesn't do the trick. +If it's not settling, then we should do some blood tests and a throat swab, but it's bit late to do those today I'm afraid. +Yeah. +Okay? +Yeah. +And hopefully that'll do the trick. +And if your son isn't settling down then we may need to have another look at him, and run some tests on him. +doctor and he's still with my wife you see. +Oh I see well +sending him to a throat specialist because +Yeah. +he's had it +Oh. +I see. +like a month now he's had it. +Yeah, that's a long time. +It implies there's something more to it, more to it than just a standard bug I must say. +And if I come down with a sore throat now, I'll know who to blame. +Yeah . +I've got a, a spot here. +Yeah. +I've, I've got to ask you to have a look at it, +Yeah. +my wife says she's seen a programme on telly. +I don't think it's owt anyway, but +Yeah. +I'll show you anyway. +Yeah +It's just there look I've had it +about three years and it has bled a couple of times. +Mm, that looks like an innocent little er +I don't think it's owt but just to prevent my +I don't know how you'd describe that but it's er it's got all the features of an innocent little blob. +Right. +I'm okay then. +Yeah, I think that's okay. +Thank you. +Right, not at all. +Take care of yourself. +Yeah, +See you bye now. +Bye. +Hello. +Hel hello Dorothy. +Doctor for you Doctor. +Doctor ? +Mhm. +Hang on. + +Really who? +Assembly can be quite good +Oh, girls. +yes +Girls,and know, and I'm only joking. +Er, how do you know? +Are Jan and Josie in here? +And, and you see, do you remember when I had asthma and went back in, oh from erm, you know er, oh,teabag. +Chris? +, mum's mirror, she said when you're eighteen, you could have it +I thought she was married. +My asthma, my asthma, you better go with him, have you got your inhaler? +Have you got in the house, oh, did you, +Will you get in the back of the car. +yes +Indigestion so I can't hear you. +O K, and it's lovely +No, now I can hear you, because they're over there, and they're shouting. +Stop shouting. +No go on. +Who, who's come back from Malta. +Laura +Bagelle? +Oh, who's with you on the bench. +Yes +Which means. +If you say all that sneeze, and I make myself sneeze, I don't think +Assuming you don't, I mean make yourself sneeze, and you don't +like I've just said, I've just been speaking for a whole lesson, my voice is just I've got to talk to you to explain what we're doing, so let's quietly +I'll get it, I'll get it. +That's O K, it's O K, really, +She said there, she pointed to it, I should know. +No, I said why? +No, but +No, I said why, and I don't see that we're all alright? +But she could come along. +We changed at Abbot +yes, +excuse me, +Are you going? +Excuse me please. +Erm, could you wait for him here,erm, who are you working with on computer? +I don't know yet. +Oh, see if anyone wants to work with me today. + +we get more of you than me get plenty of me on these . +Right that's better, okay? +Now where's the question in the book, let's see what, what you made of it before you copied it down. +No actually it was just, it was just like a question erm find X. That +Okay. +was, that was all it was. +Okay. +It was just like a big list of questions. +So right, so we've got X and two open brackets X add four close brackets equals minus four. +And the problem is this brackets here, the X plus. +What are we going to do with that? +Erm before we do anything let's have a look and see what it would mean if, it would mean just as numbers. +Let's say X is was ten, I mean it's not but let's say it was, we'd have ten add two brackets ten add four. +Minus four, now we won't bother with that side, what would we do on this side? +Would you add the two to the ten or what? +Yeah. +You sure? +No, I would multiply it. +Right, in there between the two and the brackets although they don't bother to put it in, there's a multiply. +So that's the first thing to realize, we've got a multiply in there now we've got this two piggy in the middle here, between an add and a times, so the times win. +Yeah? +Now we've got multiply into the brackets, so we'll just leave the ten where it is and work out what happens to this, everything inside the bracket has got to be multiplied by? +By two. +So? +Two times ten +Add two times ten, twenty. +Two times four, eight. +Times ten add two times four, eight, That's got rid of the brackets, equal minus four. +Now are you happy with that? +Yeah. +Okay, so you do it with the Xs then, I did it with the numbers, that's the easy bit. +So whenever you've got Xs and Ys and all sorts of strange things in there think just, it's only a number. +We don't know what it is yet, we haven't found out, but it's only a number. +And whatever we do, if it was a three, a seven, or a ten, a five just do the same but with the X. +Shall I ? +Yeah that's fine carry on. +What do you do next? +It's going very well. +Are you sure about that? +Not really no. +It's right, it's correct it is minus twelve but I could see you were really not very sure what you should be doing about that,that's great, you've found, you've got that down to there, let's have a little look at the number line, zero, one, two, three and so on, minus one, minus two, minus three, minus four. +And what have we got here? +We've got minus four take away eight, so we start at minus four start there and then we take away, which means count along that way for eight, so we get minus five, minus six, minus seven, minus eight, minus nine, minus ten, minus eleven, minus twelve Okay? +Whenever you're not sure about what to do just look at that and just write it down or just think about it, visualize it, there's zero, then we can, adding a negative number or taking away, go that way up towards the negatives, adding a positive number, go that way. +Okay, so you've got three X equals minus twelve see minus twelve, a negative divided by a positive comes out negative. +It's the same for addition and erm same for multiplication, division. +If the signs are the same, both signs the same when you're multiplying or dividing, both signs the same will give you what? +Positive. +Right good, and if the signs are different? +Negative. +So you get th a negative divided by a positive be a negative cos the signs are different. +Oh that's no problem is it? +No. +Erm now what were you doing when you were +Th +trying it? +You were doing two times X add two times two X add eight +I was two there +Mm you were +And the two and the two X. I was leaving +Okay let's, let's have another little look at brackets let's try multiplying say a hundred and one by twenty three. +Okay? +And we'll do it with brackets. +So what have we got? +We'll, we'll, we'll do twenty three times a hundred and one, okay? +Twenty add three, put the brackets round it show that's one number we have to work out what that is first. +Times, which we don't bother writing in a hundred add one, okay? +Now we multiply everything that's in there by everything in here. +So would you like to try that? +How would you do it? +You add those together. +Erm I want you do it without adding them together, okay I'll, I'll show you one. +Erm you've expanded brackets before, like this, haven't you? +Yeah, I think s +Okay, so twenty times a hundred +Oh yeah. +is two hundred. +Twenty times one is how many? +Twenty. +Okay. +Three times a hundred? +Three hundred. +And three times one? +Three. +Then if we add those up +hundred and twenty three . +Right okay, do you want to check that on your calculator? +It doesn't sound about right. +No. +Okay so have a look and what's gone wrong here? +Let's work backwards. +Three times one, what's that? +Three. +That's okay. +Three times a hundred? +Three hundred. +Okay. +Twenty times one? +Twenty. +Twenty times a hundred? +Two thousand. +Right, not two hundred, two thousand. +So that's th that's, that's my mistake there, but that's a very common error, yeah? +Now if we add it up. +It's going to look a little bit better. +Two three two there. +Yeah. +Okay, we check it this way. +Twenty three times one O one? +How would you do it long division? +L sorry multiplication, how would you do that? +What do you mean long? +Just normal multiplying, the way you multiply that out by hand. +Have you tried that or you u have you always used the calculator? +Yeah, I've always used the calculator? +Okay the way you do it by hand is you just say, one times twenty three, is twenty three. +No tens times it. +A hundred times twenty three, will be twenty three +Twenty three +hundred. +Add that up, two three two three, is that what you got on the calculator? +Yeah. +So when we're doing this normal multiplying we're really doing this. +Yeah. +Yeah? +Now if we don't know, let's say we wanted, let's say we want to find out, what would erm what would a hundred and one times twenty seven be? +Let's say I'm, I'm going, I give you this question, I want to find a hundred and one times twenty six, right? +A hundred and one times twenty seven, a hundred and one times twenty eight, twenty nine, we'll put twenty five in as well. +In fact we'll ma we'll make it all of them, twenty three, twenty two, twenty one, right. +Find all these. +What's a hundred time twenty six, a hundred times twenty seven, sorry a hundred and one times all of these. +Well we could work out a, a general thing we use brackets and see what happens. +Are you happy with this? +Yeah. +Okay. +So it'll be a hundred and one times twenty something, twenty plus X. But we don't know whether we've +Yeah. +got twenty one, twenty two, twenty seven, twenty eight, twenty, twenty plus something, we could make that N if you like instead of X. We could make it N, N is just some number from about nought to nine. +A hundred and one times twenty, what will that give us? +It'll be +Two thousand and ten. +It'll be twenty hundred and twenty. +Okay? +Oh. +I see. +Yeah. +Erm add, now what's N times a hundred and one? +Well this might be th this might be too awkward this. +It might be easier to split this hundred and one up a bit, hundred add one, times twenty add N, okay? +That's a bit easier. +A hundred times twenty? +Two, two thousand, two +Yeah +two yeah. +Two thousand or twenty hundred, same difference. +Now a hundred times N, what will that give? +A hundred N. +Okay,a hundred . +Now one times twenty? +That's one. +And one times N? +One N. +One N, so if we add those up, keeping the numbers and the Ns separate, we get two O two O add that +One O one N. +One O one N, okay so let's see what happens when we try a hundred and one times twenty seven, that just means that N equals seven. +Now what could that come to? +Well it should come to two two two O two O, plus seven times a hundred and one, which will just be seven O seven. +Let's see what that comes to. +You want to check that on the calculator, see if that one works? +No? +No. +No, oh wrong again, what's it, what it give then? +Two seven two seven. +It should always come to two seven two seven shouldn't it? +We've got two seven, that's a two. +Right, I put a nine in, that was a bit more than seven, okay. +So it does come to two seven two seven. +How about, we know it com it always come to that, two twenty plus a hundred and one N, so let's try twenty nine, when N is equal to nine we'll get two O two O add a hundred and one times nine, which'll just be nine O nine. +Nine O nine. +Add that up, nine is two nine two nine. +I don't think there's any need to check it on that cos we can see the pattern +Yeah. +that's coming out, two seven two seven, two nine two nine, what would erm so what answer would you expect if we try one O one times twenty six, what would ma what would you expect the answer to be? +Three six two six. +So we expect that and we're pretty certain that'll come to two six two six. +We can just put it in there, it's two O two add now this time we've got N equals six, six O a hundred and one times N added on, six O six, two six two six, okay? +It's, all this is showing really is that when we do multiplication normally, you see if you, if you've done this sort of multiplication, you've seen the pattern and how things are working and how you're not, someone says to you multiply erm seventeen by a hundred and one. +Don't try and do the wh whole lot all in one go, well that's simple George I happen to know my hundred and one times table, +as far as the seventeens. +You work it out in stages, little bits, and then you add the bits together and then you add the bits together, so you say, well I could do a hundred times seventeen and then I could do ones times seventeen. +And then I could add them together, or if that's a bit awkward, what I could do is I could think of the hundred and one as a hundred add one, I can think of the seventeen as ten add seven, and then I multiply them this way and I multiply all the bits and then add all the bits up at the end. +So we're doing a hundred and one times, we'll make that erm twenty eight . +We've done twenty seven up there, we'll do it again here, say it's a hundred and one times twenty seven. +So a hundred times twenty is twenty hundred, a hundred times seven will gives us what? +Seven hundred. +One times twenty? +That's twenty. +And one times seven? +Seven. +And if we add all those up? +Two seven two seven. +Two seven two seven. +Now work, this works with any number so if we've got, we want to find out erm sixteen times twenty five there's an easy way of doing it, think of the sixteen as four times four okay? +And then that's the sixteen the four times four, so now it's times twenty five. +And then we could look at it that way. +Four times twenty five is? +A hundred. +So the answer is going to be four times a hundred, four hundred. +So it's an easy one to check, see what we do when we do it with brackets. +We've got ten add six times twenty add five, okay? +If you'd like to do that one? +Hello John. +Thanks very much. +Got +Okay? +time to finish your tea tonight then? +Sorry about that last week. +I came in after you! +Oh dear ! +I, I, I was supposed to have a lift, and erm I was waiting like I say ten to five we knock off half one you see and the guy never turned up, the car was there but +So er it was a case of where I worked er was G P T er buses +Buses Yeah. +and there's no bus direct +No, how's it doing there, are they still sort of +Yeah. +It's er, well you see G E C took over er and that's the worse thing that could happen to anyone, er cos is an accountant and manufacturers. +So he just looked at it and says making a big enough profit. +That's right and if, that's right, and even if you're making a profit +Yeah. +if he thinks he can a er +Make a better profit. +make a better, by selling the assets and literally stripping it, he'll do so. +Er he couldn't give a damn about er +About er people. +No. +I mean first thing he did was er redundan we used to get four weeks for every year redundancy payment, bang, no forget it. +And er they're going through the courts now. +It, I mean it now just it just ruins the morale doesn't it? +So you're +That's right. +not getting good work out, people +That's right. +won't put themselves out for the firm and it's, it's you know +Yeah. +He can't see that doesn't help in the long run if, +Yeah, mind you his, his short er term policies so it doesn't matter in the long run. +Right. +Ten times twenty is two hundred. +Ten times five is fifty, then we go down here and six times twenty is one hundred and twenty. +Six times five is thirty. +Right. +Your, your arithmetic has really improved you know, you can do these things in your head now whereas not all that long ago you'd have been reaching for the calculator thinking, oh I can't do that. +And now you have a go, and get it right. +Good. +Is it four ? +Erm let's have a look, all zeros down the end and then we've got three and two that's a five +Yeah. +Five and two is seven and three makes? +Ten. +Ten, so that's a nought and carry one, right. +And carry one and then we've got two and one is three and the one you carried makes four. +Actually you're right with your four there, it was just you snuck an extra ten in somewhere, okay? +And that's what we got doing it that way. +So you could, you reckon you could do sort of any number of those? +If I gave you lots of those to do you +Yeah. +reckon you could do them no problem? +Yeah? +So try one with the Xs in now. +Now what's the difference? +What's the difference? +No difference at all is there? +Do you want to do another one with the numbers in? +No. +No? +No okay. +Try one with the Xs. on the back of that, save my paper a bit,. +Right. +Erm we'll put . +We'll go right for the awkward ones and put an X and a Y in as well. +What does that come to? +Hundred times ten +Okay. +is a thousand. +Right. +Hundred times Y, a hundred Y +Okay. +X times ten, ten X. X times Y, X Y. +Okay. +And then adding all these up, well there's none of them that add up that we can just add in to any of the others, so we'll have to leave them all like that, so the answer is just a, a thousand, plus a hundred Y plus ten X, plus X Y. Now if we wanted to multiply, let's say we want to multiply a hundred and three by seventeen, that just means that X is seven, sorry X is three and Y is seven. +So this should come to one thousand plus, what's a hundred times Y? +Hundred thousand seven hundred. +Good, and what's ten times X? +One thousand +Right, and what's X times Y? +That's three times seven. +So we've got a thousand +Twenty one. +Right, we've got a thousand and we've got a hundred times Y, hundred times seventeen, okay. +And we've got tens times X, ten times three, Hang on, ten X, X is three okay, we add those up, one, two and three is five seven so see if that looks anything like right. +A hundred and three by seventeen. +Is it wrong again? +Yeah. +Oh no, never works this, does it ? +So is this right? +A hundred times ten is a thousand. +Yeah. +A hundred times Y is a hundred Y. X times ten is ten X, X times Y is X Y. So that's okay, the bit you were worked out is fine. +So we're doing a hundred and three which is a hundred add X, X being three. +Times ten add Y and Y is seven. +So let's see if we've got these, we've got one thousand, yes. +A hundred Y, Y is? +No Y isn't seventeen. +Seven. +Y is seven so that should be seven hundred. +Okay? +Erm ten times X, which is the thirty +Yeah. +and then X times Y which is twenty one. +Is that right now, are we still one seven five one? +Yeah. +Okay. +Now you can see how easy it is with the numbers to make mistakes especially if you're multiplying by tens or hundreds or thousands or looking at, trying to just look at a bit of it, oh that's just, oh hang on is that seven or is that seventeen? +It's actually easier when you're using all Xs and Ys. +Yeah. +It really is, this is the thing that people won't believe. +They I'd much rather be doing a hundred and three times seventeen. +But it's easier if there are no numbers in it at all, if it's all letters. +When you pop it in you're not gonna, you don't make these mistakes. +So try this one, that was a good, that was good that. +Try this, A add B times X add Y. See what that comes to. +A times X +That's it. +A X, A times Y. +Yeah, you normally write them in a straight line but when, when they were numbers I was writing them under each other cos it was easier to add. +So yeah, A times Y is? +A Y. +Right. +B X, erm B Y. +Okay, and they're all, they're all added together because there was . +Well what did you think of that compared to doing this with the numbers in? +That's a lot easier. +It was an awful lot easier, wasn't it. +There's no chance of making all these errors that I was making, oh no what's this? +It's seventeen hundred or seven hundred or what's, what's a hundred times twenty, is that two hundred? +Oh no it should have been two thousand. +It's easier, it's the easiest thing is when there isn't a number in sight, when it's all letters. +Yeah. +Okay? +Now a more interesting one, try this. +A plus B times A plus B. +A times A, A squared and A times B, A B. +Right. +B times A, B A. +Right, normally write it A. If we get an A, a B A we'd write it A B. We keep the letters in alphabetical order when we multiply just so we can see what's going on. +See why when you've done them, finish off the last one then. +B times B is B squared. +Right. +A B, what does that mean? +A times B. +And what does B A mean? +B times A. +So it comes to the same thing. +So instead of those two, we'd, we'd do that first, as you've done it and then instead of those two we'd just write two A B. So it'll come to A squared plus two A B plus B squared. +So if you want to just write that in. +So it's A squared +A squared underneath that one, now these two, we just add the A B and we, that's also an A B, we've written +Yeah. +it as B A so we've got two A Bs. +So it's like doing the A B and then double them? +Yeah, so it's two A B, two times A times B. +Yeah. +Plus B squared. +Right, brilliant. +Try this one. +What do you think of that compared to the numbers? +It's a lot easier, +It's, it's, it's e once, once you get over this shock of, aargh I haven't got a number, oh what am I going to do, nothing to cling on to it's all letters, ooh I can't do it, I can't do it. +You know, +Yeah. +once you get over that a doddle . +This is easier than doing it with numbers, any day. +So let's try A minus B times A whoops A minus B. See what you get from that. +Now it's just what you've done there, right, but you've now got to start thinking about signs a bit, haven't you? +We've got a plus times a minus or a minus times a plus or what? +What does it give? +A times an A +Right. +go, that's A squared. +Okay. +And then erm A minus B +Yeah. +times A minus B +Well hang on. +Follow, follow the normal erm oh okay do it, go on, do it your way. +A minus B times A minus B, that'll give you what? +B squared. +Yeah, and is that plus or minus? +Plus. +Good, good. +Cos the signs are the same. +So it's A squared plus B squared and now what about the other bits? +B minus B times A is +Now when you were doing over here, you did a B times A is B A. Okay so it's gonna be B A, all you've got to decide now is it plus B A or minus B A, so you can put your B A down while you're thinking about it. +And what have you got? +Minus. +Good. +So cos it hasn't got a sign in front of that A so it's a plus A. We've got a plus times A minus which is A minus. +And what about the last one then? +B times B erm minus B times minus B. +No, you've done that already. +Yeah, so it's +Which is why it's better to sort of hey now, hang on, don't put another B squared in, cos you've done that. +Let's, let's just put it here, A minus B times A minus B. Now it's tempting to go for the easier ones in it as you did, so we'll do the A squared, okay that's no problem. +Done the A squared, and you said, well, let's do the B squared cos that gives a positive, then you got a little bit sort of not sure of which ones you'd done and which ones you hadn't. +So it's probably better to stick to the system of A times that one, that gives us the A squared okay. +Now A times minus B, what does that give us? +That gives us the minus B A or minus A B. +Yeah. +Okay? +So we need to carry on from there, so I've done the A times A and the A times minus B. Now we start with the minus B times each other, so what does give? +Minus B ti minus B times A +Will give you? +minus A B. +Good, brilliant yeah? +Gives you another minus A B there, now erm +And then B Minus B times minus B +Gives you A? +A B squared. +Right. +A plus B squared. +A plus B squared. +Put that one in, put the plus B squared at the end there. +Right so when we add those up then we've just got A squared and how many minus A Bs have we got? +Two. +So we've got to finish off with minus +Two minus A +So we finish off with minus two A Bs. +Okay, so you finish up with A squared minus +Minus two A B. +That's it, good. +Plus B squared. +Plus B squared. +Now those two, you probably won't come across it much, but the level you're doing but those, those two expressions, A plus B times A plus B and A minus B tems times A minus B come into algebra a lot, they crop up again and again. +And there's a n there's one more that comes in for you to have a look at. +A plus B times A minus B. What does that give then? +A times minus B +Erm do, do the first one of this into the first one. +Wasn't it? +Oh that's right. +Okay. +So A times A. +A times A, A squared. +Right. +A times minus B +Right. +is minus A B. +Okay, good. +B times A is B A. +Right, or A B. +A B . +And B times minus B is minus B squared. +Good, right. +Minus B squared. +So you've got a plus A B and a minus A B there. +They just cancel out. +Yeah. +So what does that come to altogether then? +A squared minus B squared. +Right Erm so those ar those are the, I mean that that one is the most useful actually, A plus B times A minus B comes to A squared minus B squared. +Cos the A B, the plus A B and the minus A B cancel out. +So if we wanted to do some, I mean if you, if you can use that to do mental arithmetic to impress your mates, that's . +Or maybe even the teachers if they're not teachers. +Let's say we wanted to do erm twenty one times nineteen. +Well let's rewrite it as A plus B times A minus B, so if A is twenty we've got twenty add one times twenty minus one. +Okay? +And we know that the answer comes to A squared minus B squared. +Well A is twenty so that comes to twenty squared minus one squared. +So twenty squared, two squared is how much? +Two squared? +T just two squared would be four. +And ten squared? +A thousand. +And ten squared is? +Ten s +Ten +Four hundred. +Is a hundred. +So it's four hundred minus one squared and one squared is +One. +just one. +So it should come to? +Three hundred and ninety nine. +Erm have we got that right? +Twenty squared. +Is that not bigger than that? +It should be very nearly twenty, twenty times twenty. +Yeah. +So could you try what I said, could you do erm what's a big number for you? +A hundred and one times ninety nine. +Yeah. +No. +What's wrong? +A add B comes to a hundred and one. +Mhm. +And A take away B comes to ninety nine. +So what, what would A be? +A plus B s two. +It'll be two. +Th th that two is very important, where did you get that two from? +Cos ninety nine plus two, a hundred and one. +Right, so the difference between these two, right so let's say that's A add B and that's A minus B and if we take that one away from this one we get two. +So if we had A add B, that's one number, take away A minus B it comes to two. +Now let's, what d what does that lot come to on the left hand side? +A A plus B minus brackets A minus B? +Shall I write the arrows +Ah, now we're not multiplying, we're not multiplying here. +We're just working out what this comes to,wh with the minus going in to it. +Now what did you mean by write the arrows, did you mean from here? +Yeah. +No. +. Let's write it slightly differently, let's write it as A add B add minus one times A minus B. Are you happy with that? +No this is all going +Right. +and I don't know anything +That's what I thought, right. +You do know quite a lot but you're thinking, phworgh where does he get that from. +Well it's back to the old confusion again, that we've got this stupid sign here which can mean it's a negative number or it can mean take away, and sometimes it doesn't really matter which way we look at it. +So let's put some numbers in, let's put some numbers in. +Let's say we're doing, let's look at the one that I did. +Which w erm twenty add one take away twenty take away one. +What does that come to? +Well it's, leave that as it is, this bit comes to mi think of a minus one . +What do we do, you must take away everything that's in the brackets, so we take away a twenty, so that's the same as a minus twenty and then we'll take away a minus one, signs are the same so it's add one. +Right take away a minus one is the same as add one, so we've got twenty add one, we can get rid of these brackets now, twenty add one take away twenty add one. +Twenty and take away twenty cancel out and it comes to two. +Right, so what happens here? +With this lot, we've got A add B, that's one number, take away A minus B. That's going to come to A add B, A take away A or A minus A and then take away A minus B, taking away A minus B is the same as adding a B. So the A take away A go out and this comes to two B. Now this is not using a long way, a long way round to do it. +Erm it is, but we're l we're seeing quite a lot about how brackets work in algebra. +Now brackets weren't invented for algebra, they were invented for these normal numbers that we play with. +They work for those and algebra just follows, so it just follows the normal rules that we're using for the numbers that we know. +So we've looked, we've looked at one lot of brackets times another lot, which is the most difficult thing to do really, and you can do that, no problem. +Now we need to look at one lot of something in brackets add another lot, well let's, let's forget about the first one being in brackets, let's say we're doing ten take away six. +What does that come to? +Four. +Okay, so I'm going to do ten take away, now I'll put some brackets where that six was I don't want to write a six, I'm going to write it as five add one. +Now that should give me the same answer as if I do ten take away five so it's take away a plus five, Yeah? +That just comes to take away five, and then take away a plus one, take away one. +Ten take away five, how many does that come to? +Five. +Take away one? +Four. +Right, so that works okay. +Now I should be able to say ten take away, I'm going to write six in here, instead of six I'm going to put it as nine take away three. +So we do, ten take away a plus nine, that's just take away nine. +Yeah. +Take away a minus three, is the same as adding the three. +Don't forget the same with, with take-aways as well, if the signs are the same you get a plus or you get an add, erm so that's, I mean I can see this is the bit you're not too happy with, but we'll just see if it works. +So take away a minus three is the same as adding a plus three, and what would that come to? +Ten take away nine +One. +Add three? +Four. +Ah. +So it does seem to work this method, and it wor this is the method we have to use for all the numbers including the As and Bs and Xs and Ys where we don't know what the number is. +So that that bit you, you got no problem with it, if I keep to positive numbers inside there, have you? +So ten take away, if we did something like ten take away A add B, well that's the same as ten take away A and then take away B. +Yeah. +If I say to you, I want you to do this sort of ten take away three add four in brackets, so you'd add the three and four, get seven, ten take away seven, three. +Or you could do, you could take them away separately. +take away the three then take away the four. +So you're okay with that, ten take away A minus, ten take away A add B will be ten take away A and then take away B. But if we do ten take away like we've been doing here, A minus B and it comes out the same as this, it'll be ten take away plus A, just take away A, and then take away minus B. Well taking away a minus B is the same as adding B. Erm do you remember the table? +For when we're adding and taking away and things. +That if we have, let's have a look at some of the easier ones. +If we're adding a positive number, so if I say add plus three to a number, it's the same as just adding them, okay? +If I. +so these are say those are the, that's a positive number and that's a negative number, and this is, it's, that means just add the positive version. +Now how about if I take away? +If I take away a positive number of course that's taken as normal take away. +Yeah. +Good. +What about if I add a negative number? +I'm going to add some money to, how much money, how much money have you got? +You've got ten pounds say, I'm going to add some money to that good. +So I'll add two pound to it, I'll add a positive amount to it and you've got more, you've got twelve. +My, next day I come in and say oh I'm going to add some money to what you've got, and you think oh that's good. +How much have you got, put it on the table. +So you put your ten one pound coins on the table and I say well I'm going to add minus eight pounds to it tonight,help yourself to eight pounds,. +I've added. +Very much like taking away to me that did,very much like no no no no . +I was adding minus eight pounds to what you had. +I've got eight pounds left, well it's the same. +Adding a negative number is the same as taking it away. +Okay? +So +It's minus. +That's, that's not minus that's take away, right. +The ones with the rings around them are, are positive or, or negative. +So adding the positive number that's just normal adding, adding a negative number that's the same as taking it away. +And you're +Yeah. +going, where's me eight pound gone? +He's told me he was going to add to my money and he said, oh the bad news is I'm adding a negative amount of money to it, and he's taken away. +Okay, now the good news the next night is that I'm gonna take away some of your money, and you think, oh wow he's taking . +Last night he said he was adding and he took away so what's he gonna do tonight when he said, really admits he's taking it away. +I say, I'm gonna take away minus eight pounds Let's say +so I add it. +Let's say erm we forget about all that ten pound early and you owed me a hundred pounds, right, and I say erm forget that, just, just take it away, forget it it's gone, you're a hundred pounds better off. +We've taken away, let's say erm have you got a bank or a building society account or anything? +Yeah. +Right. +So let's say you're, let's say I'm the building society and you can have your put in your book and that. +You make a withdrawal, they take it away and let's say you can go overdrawn, so you've got eighty pound in the building society, and you take a hundred out, how much have you got left now? +None. +Less than none. +Yeah. +You've got minus twenty. +Minus twenty. +Okay, you're twenty pounds over, you owe them, you owe me the building society, twenty pounds. +Now if I say, oh well as it's I mean Easter we'll forget about that. +Right? +I've got your balance here and I say what have you got? +You've got minus twenty, well I'll take away, let's put the sign round that . +Usually they put debit after it or something, or put it in red. +That's a minus twenty. +If I take away the minus twenty well I'm taking it from the same thing aren't I? +I'm taking a minus twenty from +Yeah. +a minus twenty so it's got to be zero, the answer, taking away a negative, it would be the same if I added, if, if it was minus twenty and I added twenty come to zero, they'd just cancel out. +So if I take away a negative number it's the same as adding. +You come into the building society and you're, you've got no money in the world and you owe twenty pounds and I say oh we'll take that away, we'll take that minus twenty away. +You walk out twenty pound richer. +You've got no more money but twenty pounds so taking away a negative number is the same as adding, yeah? +And again if the signs are the same, I mean I know they're not exactly the same this is and add and that's a positive, it's the same as adding a positive number. +A negative and a positive it's the same as taking away. +A positive and a negative, it's the same as taking away. +this was, this was the night I added minus eight pound to your money, and walked off with eight of it,right ? +And then this, this time I say well I'm going to take away some money and I took away a negative amount and you've finished up with more. +So all you need to do is remember that table which is the same, the same as when you, this is for adding adding or subtracting, and the same table for multiplying or dividing, yeah? +A positive times a pos +It's not no. +And it's no good just looking at little bits of it. +You want to sort of look at the whole picture together. +Erm do you think you got the whole picture? +Yeah. +Okay, you can guess what comes next don't you? +questions. +questions first to build up. +Erm seventeen take away ten take away three. +How would you, if you had to do that if you do it the easy way, don't do it the hard way, how would you do that? +Ten minus three, is seven. +Is seven. +Seventeen minus seven. +Is ten. +So if we get it right the answer should come to ten. +Yeah. +Now I want you to do it the hard way, I mean you wouldn't normally do it this way but when you've got letters in you've got no choice. +So we'll do it while the numbers are there to get you familiar with it. +So what we'll do is we'll put that, that means take away, right? +That's a positive ten there and this is a negative three here, if you like. +So take away a positive I'm going to take away a positive ten pounds away from you now. +It's take away, minus. +So that comes up, that comes out as a minus yeah as a minus ten. +Now I'm gonna take away a minus three. +Minus seven. +Er it's a seven. +Just. +Well we're just looking at the +I these minus and pluses and that. +Well there's two, there's two, there's two things, there are four things going on here, and it's, it was designed to be confusing. +It's not, it's not just you and everyone going what on earth is going on here. +Because we've got, and you've seen this before, we'll just have a look, get this right if you can. +What's that? +No that's a plus. +What's that? +Take away. +Erm no that's a negative. +You can't tell they're the same the only way you can tell is if they're, if they're working with number, I mean that's a plus or a positive that's a positive three. +That means take away, if it's between two numbers it means take away. +So this one is take away. +And what's this one? +Take away. +This is a take away, but we can treat it, take away three is the same as add minus three. +Let's write this out again seventeen take away ten add minus three. +Yeah? +I'm going to add some money tonight. +The bad news is I'm gonna add minus three pounds to what you've got there. +Well we know how to, how to work when it's add. +We just do the first thing and then we do the second thing. +You see this, this sign outside the brackets let's change this as well. +Let's make this seventeen erm add minus whatever this number is. +Is this getting more confusing and you can think of that as seventeen add minus one times and then we're multiplying into the brackets. +Seventeen add this big number here which is minus one times whatever we've got in here minus one times ten, what will that give us? +Minus one times ten? +Ten. +Are the signs the same or different? +Different. +So I'm gonna say? +Positive. +Negative. +That's it. +Signs are different +Okay. +will give me minus and so a minus one times a ten gives us a minus ten. +Now a minus one times a minus three? +Is a positive three. +A positive. +Plus that's the same plus from there, plus a positive three. +That's what they'll come to there, so we've got seventeen add minus ten add plus three. +That's seventeen as well. +Seventeen add a minus ten the same as take away a positive take away a positive ten, and add a positive three. +We've got all positive numbers now. +Hurray. +So we can drop the signs and we can forget about mentioning whether they're positives or negatives, and get now a nice straightforward, seventeen take away ten add three. +Seventeen take away ten? +Seven. +Add three. +Ten. +Ten, okay? +So same as, same as you got here. +What's what di do you get here? +Ten. +What I've done was three minus ten seven. +Yeah. +Seventeen minus seven. +Good. +The big thing is we've got two things going on here, two different types, one of them is a, a f . +One, one is an operation add or subtract. +What does add mean? +Adding the two values to together. +What does it mean, you're still using adding, what does add mean? +Put them together you know? +Okay, what does it mean in terms of the number line?the number line there, and we want to do something like two add three, what does that mean? +You start at two positive to +Right, good. +So we've left a bit of this out, we're, we're a bit sloppy in our notation, we should be saying let's put a sort of a ring round the whole thing, to show that's the number positive two. +Add positive three, see this thing of using the same symbol for add and for positive is very confusing, very confusing, it's as though, you know you're speaking a different language where one word has about fifteen different meanings and you can't understand what they're talking about most of the time. +So positive two add positive three, what does that mean? +Start at the two. +Start at positive two okay? +What does add mean? +What does g g go +Yeah. +along is right, erm which way? +Positive +Go, go that's it go along towards the positive numbers. +So you better count along that way for how many? +Three. +One, two, three. +So the answer is positive five +Yeah. +is that right? +Okay. +Now what would this mean? +Minus two add positive three. +Don't tell me, I can guess. +What does this minus two mean? +Start in the negative. +That's where we start. +So we start negative two, minus two, and I know what add means cos you told me last time. +Count along towards whoops. +Count along for how many? +For three. +For three. +One two three. +So the answer should be one. +One. +Positive one . +Is that right? +Positive one. +Yep. +Okay, now. +You didn't think adding up or taking away was this hard did you? +No. +Because it's very, I mean you know mathematicians have written books about this, erm and yeah kids of five or six are quite happily adding and taking away until they get to negative numbers, until someone says ah I'm going to add to that money you've got there, I'm gonna add minus seven. +You can get a tantrum you won't get away with explaining . +So, okay. +A minus two add a positive three, now what would minus two add so that's a negative two, add a negative three mean? +Well minus two is where you start, okay. +Add, that means go along towards the positive numbers, and I'm going to count, how many am I going to count? +Minus three. +Oh. +I count in that direction though, so minus means, minus three means count the other way. +So I start from them and I count this way. +That's a minus. +One two three, and I finish up there, minus three, minus four, minus five. +The other way of looking at it is you can say I'm going to count you start from nought and you count along that way until you get to this number, so I'd go nought minus one, minus two, minus three. +So altogether I'd still count three that way. +So negatives go that way. +Now how about if I do four add minus five. +So it's plus four add minus five. +Okay that's always the number where you start isn't it? +So we start at positive four add, add to count in the positive direction, oh +Minus. +we're adding minus five, whoops switch round count the opposite way. +So from four we count five backwards count minus five just means count down the opposite way, so we go one, two, three, four, five, so it should be minus one. +Yeah? +Negative one. +Now the tricky one, let's do plus four make it plus five, plus five a a takeaway a negative three. +Okay? +Where do we start? +Plus five. +Plus five, no problem there, start where the first number tells us to start. +Take away, what does that mean? +Count negative +Count that way. +So if we said take away three, let's do this first it's bit easier, plus five take away plus three, you start at plus five, take away means count that way, count to the left towards the negative numbers, so we count three. +Plus five, count three, one two three. +Two, plus two. +So. +It should be plus two. +Now what does this one mean, you tell me? +Plus five take away minus three. +Start at plus five +Okay. +going that way. +That take away means we're going in that direction, and how many are we going to go? +Three. +Three or minus three? +Minus three. +Minus three. +When we were taking away three we went in this direction, for three. +But to take away a minus three +Go the other way. +go in the opposite direction, turned your pen round and you go the other way. +So A take away a negative, those two signs together is the same as an add. +A positive. +When we did our table this is for adding and taking away erm that's a positive number and that's a negative number, okay? +Add a positive number is the same as a these are all the things you do with positive numbers, this is add a positive number is the same as add a positive number, right. +So that's add a positive number, these are all for the positive numbers, add a positive number, okay? +Take away a positive number, well okay we +Take away. +take away, a positive number right. +Add a negative number, this is when I said I'm going to add minus eight pounds to your money tonight, add a negative number is the same as take away a positive number. +Add take away a negative number is the same as add the positive number. +So whether it means add or take away or subtract or negative we can sort of forget about it and just look at the signs so if get if we get take away plus three, that will be the same as take away plus three, yeah? +Take away three. +If we got add minus three, that's the same as take away plus three, just take away three. +The interesting one is when we've got take away a minus three, that's the same as add the positive three, add plus three. +Now, what I'd like you to do this, this is not straightforward. +It's er anyone can do this you know. +People, people always think that until you start throwing in the double negatives and they think, whoa, don't want to know! +No no no no this is all rubbish you're making this up as you go along yeah? +It doesn't se it's not natural is it? +Not sort of, it's not obvious. +Especially when I could do this one yeah, erm positive five going that way +Mm. +and then turning back this way. +Yeah. +You know, when all I've ever known is plus is this way, negative this way, it's either that way or that way, you know. +Right. +Now I'd like you to just have a look at these for next time erm and work them out on the number line. +Yeah. +Erm because that's what gets you to accept it and stop thinking this is a load of rubbish, this is a con he's just making this up. +Yeah I am making it up, it's not me making it up, mathematicians had things like erm you, you, you met this sort of earlier on in school. +What's seven take away three? +Okay, what does that come to? +Four. +No problem, one number take away another number gives us a number, wow that's great. +Okay, what's three take away seven? +Infants +Minus +infants school and you say can't do it. +It's obviously a load of rubbish. +You ask some kid, he'll say there you are I've got three pens on the table now take away seven. +think he's off his chump you know. +What's he on about, and then just forget about it and they go and play in the sand or something and he's crackers that bloke. +And they're probably quite right. +But cos mathematicians are a bit crackers, we want, we don't like saying I can't do that. +we'll, we'll, we'll find a way. +You know we'll change the rules so we can do it, we'll move the goal posts slightly +We'll, we'll make sure we can do that. +That's what they say well we have this silly game that we play on the number line, going up and down the thing and when you do three start from three, count seven in the opposite direction we finish up at this number called minus four. +Well what on earth is minus four? +You show me minus four in anything, there's mi minus four houses out there. +There's mi minus four people coming to the party tonight, they're all crackers, okay but it works, it's very useful it solves an awful lot of problems like you know getting rockets to the moon and things like that that we couldn't do otherwise. +It comes in handy with your bank statement your temperature, oh it's minus six. +It's, tonight it's, think of these as a sort of temperature numbers that, try, try these, it starts at plus three tonight and then it drops five degrees, plus three and it drops five degrees, what does it come to? +Okay, it's minus seven and it drops minus three. +It's erm minus fourteen and it drops by minus six. +fourteen take away six. +Er oh keep these numbers small so you can sort of play about on the number line more easily, and ten minus, minus ten take away minus four. +Six add minus three, three add minus six. +And minus six take away minus six. +Any number take away itself, what should it come to? +Nought. +Yeah. +So minus three take away minus three should come to nought. +Minus six take away minus seven. +And minus six take away minus five and then X take away minus one. +X take away minus X. Take away X, which is just plus X, X take away X. And three X take away minus two X. Hey now on the number line you can't it's difficult to do X take away X but you can work out roughly where they'd be and what you would do and what the system would be. +So if you have a look at those and play with them for next time erm and make sure that you learn those two rules about if the signs are the same +Yeah. +it's always then a plus sign, whether it means an add or a plus . +Al also the way we talk about it is very very sloppy, we often say A minus B when we should be saying plus A take away plus B. We start talking like that people he's off again. +He's flipped ! +Erm it's, it's, negative numbers aren't a natural thing, fractions are actually easier and that was what happened in the history of mathematics, fractions were developed a long long time before negative numbers, the old Greeks used to play about with fractions quite a lot. +Negative numbers came later. +Anyway I must dash because I've got +I'll do that for +So you have had before I try and don't, I won't go off with your homework hone honestly I won't. +Erm now next week er where are we, right. +You still want a lesson next week? +Yeah. +Usual time, okay. +That's good. + +Ah that's it we're we're lit up. +So I'll now go all shy. +Erm most of the i involvement I've ever had in any kind of job has been by accident. +Er I've had plans. +When I was younger at school I had plans to go into various different things and er th I failed miserably, which is something I started doing and seemed to continue to do to some extent. +And so it was quite accidental that I started the club. +It was something I wanted to do, but i I didn't know that until it started to happen, and then with the removal business too it's more or less the same kind of thing. +And essentially in nineteen sixty eight sixty nine legislation changed in this country and up to that time what you had to do if you had a removals firm you had actually a licence. +Er it was called an A licence which allowed you to take furniture all over the country to wherever you needed to go to remove people. +But if you didn't have an A licence, most firms that had got their own vehicles could get a C licence which allowed them to keep th take their own goods in er er that they used for their own practices to wherever they were going to but didn't y allow you to take anybody else's. +There was a thing called a B licence which allowed you to go within about twenty five miles with somebody else's goods. +So unless you'd got an A licence you couldn't be a removal man. +So if you wanted to be a removal man you had to find the work to justify you having an A licence, but of course you couldn't because you hadn't got an A licence to do it with. +So that's how things stood in those year in the the days before nineteen sixty nine and I in fact did learn about removals in the late sixties. +I'll be telling most some of the tales about that time, and then the other tales will be about what happened to me in sixty nine when I started up, because the changing legislation s more or less said that if you had a vehicle of thirty hundredweight or less you could move an er wh whoever's furniture you liked anywhere you wanted to. +So it was a breakthrough and I noticed this change in sixty eight and realized that it would be possible to do small-scale removals. +Oh that's nice isn't it. +. +there you are, a little bit of atmosphere to er . +. +Oh we now know there's a concert starting next door. +Er and . +Er and I noticed that there was this change. +But what I had also noticed was that certain firms for example that w were er th then extant, er they in fact would s er say have a three-piece moved, and you'd have a huge van would go to pick up a three-piece suite. +Er it would be a van that would take a a four-bedroomed house with ease. +Three men would go along, pick up this poor little three-piece suite, put it on the van, deliver it perhaps two hundred yards up the road. +And I mean in nineteen sixty five such a job would cost te about eleven to fifteen pounds which was an anas astronomical amount of money in those days,simply because the man who had the firm had an A licence, or four or five of them, and he was in a mon a monopolistic position you see. +Well it was ludicrous. +It was all right for big removals but not certainly for three-piece suites and the like. +So that's why I started up in business. +I had the club already going, was dealing with mainly young people, and as you will know young people's taste tends to vary quite considerably and very quickly, so I might well be very successful for so long and then if suddenly taste changed and I hadn't got the ability to change with the times I realized that it would be rather precarious, so I needed a second string to my bow. +So that's in fact how the removals basically started. +I learnt with someone else, did two years and then er that was an accident if you like that I got involved cos somebody wanted me to be involved and and it seemed the right thing at the time. +And then I went on and started on my own with light removals. +And in the in fact in the early days o o f o one of the things that had happened f early on was that I would do jobs on my own, and you it's amazing how many number of one-man jobs there are. +Somebody wants a single bed moving, somebody might want a chest of drawers moving, somebody wants some packages so there were there's quite a lot of of work of that nature wanted. +But I had a problem in that very often people wanted a double wardrobe moving and of course it then needed two men. +And in fact in the early stages I got one man working for me and er I went back into teaching again for a short time to help out at a school where the the the teacher was ill, and I was teaching in the morning and then doing two-man jobs in the afternoon, and he was doing one man jobs in the morning. +It's quite funny really because er I used to go off I had an agreement with the headmaster at that particular time and he'd h I'd been a full time teacher with him, and he needed somebody desperately, that was the only reason obviously he wanted me back, and er I said Well look I can come back but I can't get back in order to go to the assembly at first. +He says, Well you never managed it when you were full time anyway.. +. +So we had this agreement I would al arrive in a removal van just as assembly finished to start the lessons in the morning and then my removal man would come back and pick me up again at twelve o'clock so that I could then do the two-man jobs. +So I had a er I got him set up for the morning jobs and then I did the afternoon jobs with him. +So it started in that kind of fashion really. +But because you don't know I mean I er y you can't imagine really somebody saying, Oh I'm going to be a removal man I think, it sounds like a fascinating idea, and you wouldn't think it was. +And you'd think, Well what could be worse than lifting and carrying, and what could be more boring than doing that all day? +But it it it hasn't been. +It's been amazing for the very fact that everything is so different, every job is different. +You aren't stuck with the same job. +You may think you are, but from one house to the next that you deal with it's always different. +But of course some of the jobs we do are quite strange really, and er er just as an example there were er th there was the job er when we were er moving stuff from the old school system. +You remember they did the changeover five or six years ago now, and the schools were mi er were getting mix er er they were mixed sexes and they were Archbishop Holgate's was going to be two sexes and so was Queen Anne's. +And at the swap over they had to swap equipment around for the reorganization. +So we, on the small scale, for just bits and pieces, got m several jobs and one of them was moving stuff from the biology labs and the physics labs from Archbishop's to take it all the way across town to go to Queen Anne's school. +And I just have to go to or I just have to sort of explain that when you pack a van, you don't pack it like the advert for KitKat. +You've seen the advert for KitKat haven't you where they have a little break sitting in the back of the van and the settee's on the floor and the carpet's on the floor and there's a a lamp in there and there's a piece of furni to one side. +Obviously if you pack your furniture in like that if you pack your furniture in in that way what you'd end up with when the van stopped all the f all the furniture would move down to one end and be squashed. +So what you do is you pack it like a three-dimensional jigsaw puzzle. +You start at the front with the luton over the top, and you put your boxes. +You often put things like ar er like er dining chairs which have got awkward-shaped backs up there, cover them with wrappers and place them there. +And then when you get to the er van proper you take things like a wardrobe and you put it edgewise on int th in against the side of the van,you'd then put a wrapper over, and then you'd put something soft like a mattress facing it, because obviously that's a shiny side and if you can put something soft into it it's not going to get scratched. +You then face it with another wardrobe, or if not a wardrobe you'll face it with something like a chest of drawers and the and put a c er er a wrapper over that and then upside down on top of that th there would be a dressing table, and they would face in. +And you build it across the van like that. +So it's rather like a sandwich. +That's one of the reasons why a removal man when he comes into the place doesn't start with one room, upstairs shall we say, and f empty that room then empty another, because he's looking for sizes and shapes that will fit. +Th er er s drop-leaf tables are marvellous cos you get to the end of the side of your packing you see and you might have a gap just about the right size so in you put the wrapper you put the table in and you might have a little gap like left so you get the this the you get the er ironing board and put that in there. +Steps, things like that. +So that the whole thing doesn't move. +A good removal man very often can fill a van without ever using a tie once. +You have ties obviously to hold certain things in and if you've only got a van with a a third full you'll have to use the ties because there's space left over. +But a good removal man can very often pack and not actually use ties because of the way he fits stuff in. +And that's the secret. +Where do you think the mirrors would go? +I'm going to test you now, you see. +Floor. +No. +I thought that once, when I did my first removal because the boss was away, and I went to a house wh and they had more more mirrors in that house than I s ever seen since, and because I was only learning and I hadn't been taught I put all the other furniture in and worried about the mirrors and worried about the mirrors and worried about the mirrors till at the end there was so much furniture in there wasn't room to put the mirrors on the floor and I had to come back a second time to actually do that because I didn't dare put them anywhere else. +But I did learn later. +And where w anybod any other ideas? +In the wardrobe. +the mattress. +Well done yes, ooh there she'll make a very good Er in a wardrobe you see. +Ideal. +Open the door of the wardrobe, put a wrapper over the big one, put it in the back, then sandwich another one, a picture in perhaps if you've run out of things like that, till you get to the front, close the door, and you've got it all packed away neat out of the way. +And it's always a good tip for a removal man to get rid of those things first. +Cos if he gets rid of them first then he doesn't have to worry about those things until er later which sometimes does happen. +But all this is done so that it won't shift, it won't move. +Or if suddenly you have to halt then the whole lot doesn't come forward and squash into the next piece in front into the ne That's why it's edge on longways down so that the the wardrobe is that way edgeways on you see so that if you suddenly stop the weight of something there won't squash the the wardrobe. +And you build it up. +Obviously if you've got a load that'll take a whole van load you build it up as high as you can. +If you go to a house and you realize that it's only a very small house and it's a very big van you'll only pack it up that way because you're packing faster by doing it that way. +Anyway I explain all this to give you a basic idea of the principle. +But when we went to Arch the school at Archbishop's the two lads that went, they had to pack all these various different acid carboys. +They were alright, big glass things which you could surround and pack in tea chests with bits and pieces and equipment in. +And they were b doing quite happily and quite merrily with all the bits and pieces they had to pack until they came to something they'd never packed before. +A skeleton. +. +Full-length articulated skellington you see. +So they scratched their heads and wondered, Now what on earth are we going How are we going to pack this? +If you put it in a tea chest and bend its limbs then it's likely to get broken, and it wouldn't quite fit in you see d'you see it, And yes she she's jumping ahead already you see. +And if you hang it up then it will swing about and could still be damaged. +You can't put it anywhere cos something else would squash it. +So w er we did what we've just been suggested from the front here you see. +We sat it in the front seat. +Now m now my Oh of course. +My van has the driver's seat and two passenger seats. +It was a summer's day, wound the window down, put the skeleton in with his elbow sticking out over the you see, +and then the second man he set he sat next to it with his arm over his shoulders just to make sure he was comfortable with the with as you say, the seat belt on as well you see, to secure him, and off the lads set, all the way across Hull Road right the way t across to Queen Anne's. +And at time that time er th it was before Coney Street was closed so they went through Coney Street. +Well you can imagine can't you? +People on Hull Road just standing waiting for the bus, sort of idly chattering away, Yes, aye you know chattering away and th +Am I seeing Did you did you just Did you see what I saw? +And you can imagine the consternation down Coney Street where there were all these people and there was the the skeleton sitting there quite perkily right the way through town. +And when we got to the other end one of the lads actually walked in and did a waltz into the school with it which the kids thought was great. +But there again you see it's how you hold How would you hold a skeleton you see? +It's probably the best way like that you see and walk it in er you see . +Well there p you see you you that's one Thank you, yes. +Just on cue th there Michael. +I I always show this one to prove in fact that this is the case you see cos people sometimes don't believe my stories. +He didn't +s he didn't remain in the parking in the driving seat er and in fact that that's because one of the lads was er a keen photographer and er So that's actually how it did go. +Now that is the size of vans that I use now for light removals. +Er another er rather another er on that tack of course talking about er well in this case a skeleton, I had a job to do just shortly before they closed Coney Street off fully and e it was myse I was on my own and I had t to pick up some dummies from er a ladies' shop a dress shop. +And you know many of them now are rather abstract things aren't they? +Well these weren't. +They were very realistic were these, and there were fifty to be moved. +And I had to walk about fifty yards to get to the van because it was it was in an area that had been partly pedestrianized. +Now you can imagine possibly the view can't you? +I go in there they they're not covered with anything and I've got a naked lady in my arms. +So I carried it carefully like this, arm round the waist you see and off I went up the road for about forty fifty yards and put one in. +Then you go back and you think, Well I can't do this fifty times over. +Anything else you'd get as many boxes as you possibly could and carry them out in order to do the job efficiently. +So the second time I went clasping them round the waist, two,you see. +And you got the odd look but it wasn't too severe because at least though they had no clothes on at least you were holding them by the waist. +But once you got well into the business of the removal,y one forgets, you see, and you forget exactly what you're carrying or what it appears to be that you're carrying. +And at one stage I think I was carrying about three. +One was slung over my shoulder one had got sort of between two limbs I suspect, holding it round the back like that, and another one was over a protrusion that just seemed handy to hold the lot, and as I walked down the street of course suddenly everybody was glancing at me and I realized what I appeared to be doing. +And I went very red as well as you can imagine. +You don't realize and then you thi you've got these three bodies all wrapped round me and me er sort of walking round cheerily down the road with them. +So you see you do get some strange loads. +Er +the bodies speak while you were walking along? +I'm afraid not. +I but it would have made me jump. +I would've probably not've been here if one had started to speak. +Another strange job one of the younger lads did, he d he was about eighteen and er we went he went north to er north of Pickering to what do they call the forestry area there? +Dalby. +Dalby Forest that's it, to the Dalby Forest. +And the job there was to pick up tray after tray of tiny little sprigs about that high in little tiny paper cardboard boxes. +And they in turn were in what were rather like bakers' trays. +And these were put on and then one after the other would put onto the van and they would come right up to this height. +Not a lot of weight as you imagine because they're all little tiny sprigs this high, and obviously what they are going to do, they were being taken to south Wales where they going to start off a new little forest presumably. +And we had tray after tray of these. +He went there to Dalby Forest one day in the afternoon loaded them all up and set off for Wales. +It was a two-day job basically because of the time taken to get there and then come back through York again. +And on the second day in the morning he was happily going down this nice sunny day on the coast road er to south Wales driving away quite happily,and then suddenly and a police car came across him, came in front stopped him. +So poor Ben thought What on earth have I done? +He couldn't think of any it was a quiet road, he'd done nothing wrong, he hadn't been speeding, and it was a lovely morning and I can't do the accent, I won't try to because it was a Welshman obviously but er he came What do you think you're doing lad? +Ben said Well I'm just driving as normal,wh what what have I done wrong? +You've been breaking the law for the last ha mile and a half. +At least. +Well what have I been doing? +He said Well it's a windy road, it's got double white lines. +Didn't you notice? +He'd obviously had a bad night had this poor bloke, you know. +So Ben said, Oh, I'm terribly sorry he said, there was nobody else on the road and I I I must admit I didn't notice whether I had. +I'm very sorry. +That's not good enough. +It's not good enough isn't that, being sorry. +You were breaking the law. +Er double white lines. +So he tried to placate this man and he wasn't going to be placated. +And as the conversation f went on a little further eventually the man said the policeman said for no accountable reason And what's your load anyway? +Now, you've seen the picture of the van haven't you? +And how small it is, a th hund er thirty-hundredweight van. +Ben gave the right answer literally speaking because it said it on the sheet of paper. +But when he was asked What are you carrying anyway? he said Thirteen thousand fir trees. +Now you can imagine with a little van that size the policeman thought he was taking the mickey. +And it was quite true cos there were thirteen thousand of these little t Er he didn't explain the size, he just said Thirteen thousand fir trees. +So of course the poor Welshman with not having a sense of humour booked him, and poor Ben came back with a twenty-pound fine. +Oh we're alright then. +So he er he was most upset was poor Ben so I did explain to him that what he had to do with policemen if they weren't feeling too good was to try and avoid saying things er quite as straightforwardly as that. +We got another job, we we often get erm er we used to g often get jobs from the Yorkshire Museum. +But then they got their own van and they did most of them, er but then again they they a called on us and said Can you come and do a little job for us? +And we thought it was a bit suspicious because they have their ow they had their own van by then you see. +So we went to the Yorkshire Museum there in the g in the gardens,Willy went along, and er one er and they wanted two men instead of one. +They normally wanted one man to go and er and that was it. +But two men had to go. +And when we got there we found out why. +Well it was what we had to carry you see. +It was a glass case with a tarantula spider in it. +It was also another glass case. +I just have to look at the list of this cos I always tend to forget this. +Oh yes that's right with an anthill. +A live anthill about this high apparently. +Then there was another glass case with scorpions in, live scorpions. +And of course the blokes at the Yorkshire Museum said Oh you're alright don't worry they're quite safe they're all sealed up. +And as Willy said at the time he says Well it's alright you saying that but there's no doubt why we got the job. +But that wasn't the end of it either. +There was a python. +I mean it was only six or seven foot long but it was a a python nevertheless in a glass case. +Course you can imagine how careful he was carrying it with that in it. +And all they wanted it to do was to go around the corner to Marygate for the winter and then we s got the same in the spring to bring it back,but by that time the python was a lot bigger. +We moved it once and apparently it had to go a zoo after that cos when we moved it back it was about twelve foot long, and then of course it g grew even larger than that. +So those are the kind of odd little things that help to make our job interesting and a little bit more exciting. +But then of course the kind of stories I give and the ones that most people like generally speaking are the accidents I have. +That's what you've come for most of you you see. +Now of course I'm not supposed to admit to these things, being a professional, bo b before I do admit it them as I am going to I have to say that er on an average year er year we do about one thousand five hundred jobs and in that time there will probably be about three or four claimable accidents that we'll have. +Last year's been better than that actually, I I think we've had about one or two. +That is accidents where we genuinely do unfortunately damage something. +We're covered then, the insurance pays for whatever the cover is, er and er that's how it works. +Now that is w er in fact it was a pretty good It's point nought three per cent I think of our our jobs er that we carry out that you can have you're allowed to have an accident which I think is a fairly good rate. +I mean anybody can have an accident. +I had one chap who worked for me for over two years without one accident, didn't scratch anything, did everything right, he was a wonderful conscientious man, and then one day he was carrying a big box containing some expensive crockery and he tripped on the top step of the stairs and the lot went down, the whole box went right to the bottom. +And it demolished about I think about a third of what was in it. +Now of course what happened is that we claimed, we w went to the insurance and then they took they got a list of what was damaged and we replaced it for what he'd lost er exactly. +So the man was happy enough and even at the time, he realized that er it wasn't this lad's ch er mm fault entirely, because the reason he tripped was cos the carpet was loose on top of the stairs. +Having said that a good removal man should have noticed that before he started. +But as I say he was the most conscientious removal man and after two years when he came in he was so upset. +Er had had such a record, I mean if he'd smashed just er a lampshade or something like that it wouldn't have been so bad, but to actually get rid of a third of all the crockery in one fell sloop was er well it was fairly excessive. +But I am going to having said that I will tell you of the few accidents that have occurred over the years, and one of them was mine in the early days when I was learning th the full size removal job. +And this is the one people seem to like best I think. +Er it says something about human nature does this. +Erm You know the ring er the r er roundabout as you go down Monkgate, er one one of the l the roads goes off to Huntington Road and the other one is is Heworth Green and then the other road goes off now to Sainsburys. +Now at one time that road as it started off there were terraced houses there erm little tiny terraced houses, and they were due to be demolished. +Yes? +It's a long ti It's a car park now for that pub on the end there. +And er we went to move this lady, we got there about I suppose quarter past eight time, a summer's day, nice day it was. +A huge orange and black van with the full the name of the owner on it of course, because if you want to advertise something a removal van is one of the best things in the world for putting an advert on if you want people to see it that is. +And when we got there we started to pack the small things on the front, the l the luton as we call it over the cab. +And then we got to the stage where we needed to get the wardrobes out. +Now these houses were of the kind that when you walk in through the door at the front you go into a l sitting room, through the next door is what can be a kitchen cum living room, and the staircase isn't immediately obvious but what it is is it's a door that looks like a cupboard. +And you open this cupboard door You can tell there's a step at the bottom. +You open what appears to be a cupboard door and in fact the stairs go around the corner and back up on themselves. +Now of course with wardrobes that are three foot wide it's an impossibility to get them up the stairs. +Funnily enough a sing a double wardrobe which is four foot wide and eighteen inches deep if you split it in half, as the old ones could be, you end up with two pieces two feet and they actually can go up the stairs cos you can just get them underneath. +But with a th a single wardrobe ironically you can't get them up the stairs because soon as you reach that step you've got another step so if you were to lift it up to the next step it'll hit the top of the d doorjamb so it won't go any further. +Even if you got it further it's wider than the stairway which is only two foot six and the r wardrobe's three foot. +So there's no way can you get them up the stairs. +So it's a window job. +Now window jobs are easy,believe it or not. +They they look spectacular but they're very easy to do if you know what you're doing. +And I'll show you basically The the theory is that you go inside In fact I can show you with this this kind of window here. +Er don't very often have this you see when I go to talks that. +But here you have a piece of beading. +You take that out. +You do the same to that piece there. +Now once the beading's free you can pull this sash out, this window frame will come forward. +It's on cords. +This isn't because it's set to, but normally it's on cords which go up to there up to that pulley wheel round and there's a big heavy weight inside which carries the window. +It's an equivalent weight to that window frame there. +So of course having pulled it out the the cord is attached with two very thick nails, and you can pull those nails out, and then get you leave go of the cord. +Er y you don't actually leave go of the cord straight away. +If you do you need a joiner. +Cos if you leave d go the cord straight away the cord just goes shooting up there, the weight inside comes down here and you lose the cord and you have to take the whole lot p t apart in order to get the thing to work again. +But what you do as a removal man is you get hold of the cord that you've pulled away from the side of the frame, put a knot in it, a loose knot, then leave go gently because again if you don't leave go gently if it's an old cord when it gets to the reaches the knot it'll snap and you'll still lose the weight inside . +So you let go gently then you do the same on the other side, and then of course you've got this piece free. +Sometimes if the the piece of furniture is very large you have to do the same with the top one where there's another lap there, that one, another piece of beading there, and this will come out as well. +It means you'll lose a bit of paintwork when you do the job but very u most often you can get it all back together with a few flakes of paint missing. +More often than not you only need the bottom window out because most wardrobes'll go out that way you see. +So that's what you've got, you've got a situation like that. +Then you bring your ladder that you've brought with you for the job and you put it up leaning on this windowsill, so that essentially if that's the windowsill the end of that table there, it's up to here you see with the top of the ladder just above the windowsill. +You put a wrapper over the top and then off you go. +This is a two-man job. +You get your wardrobe, its feet are that way on, you get each side of it, you put it on there and its bottom of the wardrobe rests on top of the ladder. +One man who's going to stay upstairs has the head of the wardrobe, you go tro I go trotting downstairs you see,and then I climb up the ladder And the ladder remember is over the edge of the sill. +So about four rungs down from the top I stop. +I'm quite well out from the ladder because it s at an angle and there in front of me is the wardrobe. +All I have to do is push down, the man inside pushes up and the wardrobe slowly comes up like that. +I go down one or two rungs and the wardrobe follows me. +It rests at an angle, it rests on the er ladders of course because they are ang er the ladders are at an angle like that so part of the weight's taken by the actual ladders. +And down you go. +You trot down like this. +The man at the top leaves go once you've got it well resting on the ladder and he runs down the stairs to meet you at the bottom by which time you've got to the bottom rung, he comes takes one side of the wardrobe, you take the other and that's all there is to it. +Done it I suppose I've done it eighty a hundred times by now But this was the first time,you see. +And th it was about quarter to nine. +And that roundabout in those days and probably nowadays at that time gets snarled up with traffic all going to work. +We didn't help with a huge van on the Foss on the Foss Bank there. +That was holding up traffic too. +So everybody was watching this. +All sit there, tapping, waiting to be able to move on. +And I was going up this ladder. +But there was a problem. +The ladder wasn't long enough. +It didn't go onto the windowsill. +It was about that short. +About three four f foot short of the windowsill. +Now I knew of no better, and Alan should've known better because he'd done a lot more removals than I had and he said Oh you're alright Neal, don't worry. +Just climb, I'll pass it to you, you'll get, don't worry about that Neal. +I said Are you sure? +He said Yes,d So I did. +I climbed up the ladder. +I was too naive not to do you see. +Anyway I got to virtually the lat rung and of course I was smack up against the wall. +I wasn't two or three foot back like this as I should have been, I was up here. +The wardrobe wasn't in front of me there, it was there, you see. +So he started to push. +The lady who was having operation done and wanted to see a remo er er er a wardrobe come out through a window was standing down there just on the edge of the road to watch this miraculous occurrence. +And he started to push did Alan, and I started to go like that. +I then started to put my foot to get the next rung down. +And as I moved my foot about, like this, trying to find the next rung, I began to realize things weren't quite right. +The ladder began to move around below me. +Alan was still pushing quite happily. +I was bending like a banana backwards like this by this time. +And I was going like this doing a little dance on the ladder trying to find the next rung and the ladder was doing a little dance on the wall. +And I suddenly realized at this stage that there was going to be something rather unexpected happening. +Well it probably was to be expected really under the circumstances. +And I was very worried because the lady that was going to be paying for the job was just down there and if we weren't careful we were going to kill her with the wardrobe. +And fortunately I suddenly had inspiration, just at the last possible moment. +It very rarely happens to me. +But I realized that I had to do something pretty dramatic to avoid too serious an accident. +So just at the last moment as the ladder began to sweep that way I just pushed as er hard as I could in the air, and the wardrobe flew up into the air in that direction, the ladder flew off in that direction, I flew off in this direction +And it was a bit like a fountain, going in different directions, you know how the water comes up and goes over. +And we all landed on the pavement and road together. +All in one fell bang. +The wardrobe when it landed didn't it hit a corner, but it didn't just crumple up, it exploded. +It just went Crash! and shot off into fifteen different pieces. +Honestly, cos I counted them when I was putting it together. +We missed the lady fortunately cos it had you see that last push it just flew right over her head and past her. +And I mean one had to be grateful because she was much more concerned about whether I'd hurt myself falling off the ladder than her wardrobe. +She wasn't worried about her wardrobe in comparison to me having landed on the on the road, which I thought was extremely good considering that she I'd just demolished a nice piece of her f er a piece of her furniture. +And of course being as it was with everybody watching, we got applause for this. +You can imagine, they're all waiting there, anything t to distract you if you're waiting in a queue, and there was this man, throwing himself off ladders, chucking wardrobes everywhere and we got Very good. +Can you do it again? +I didn't see it properly that time? you know. +Some bright spark said By God I know what firm, I'll write I know what firm to get anyway in future. +No I funnily enough I just landed er er I I I didn't hurt myself at all. +I think er I don't know why but I must have just landed and done a s +somersault and landed on my feet. +And I was I d I said I was very sorry about the wardrobe and I'd replace it for her and see what I could do, and she said Oh don't worry love as long you're you're alright that's all I'm worried about really. +Which was extremely good. +And in fact what I did do was erm went and bought her a secondhand wardrobe, took it to her, and she was really pleased because apparently she thought it was a better one than the first one. +And it was bigger and it was shinier and er so she was happy a fortnight later anyway. +But er there was one bit that didn't bust. +It was it was o it was a utility Er now it depends on your age now, you're going to have to admit something here you see . +Do you remember these utility wardrobes? +Yes. +The only solid bit was at the front. +The only er solid part of the wardrobe was in fact the front part, which was made of Sorry about that. +Which was made of wood, and the rest is plywood at the side and back. +You know the kind that if you lived in a house which had got an uneven floor when you opened the door the wardrobe falls over towards you. +The only time it won't fall over you is when it's full of clothes, but the problem is opening the door and getting the clothes in before it falls on you. +It's one of those wardrobes, you know the kind? +And it has a mirror on the back, and that was the bit that didn't break. +Good grief. +As it fell, it hit on the corner and the door opened and the corner of the door was stressed, literally, you could see stress marks on the wood, but the mirror at the back was in one piece. +Now that mirror's the one that you look into when you go in the ladies' toilets. +Oh. +In the club here. +It's just the right shi size and shape. +I don't like wasting things you see. +It is, that is the sa it's the same mirror in fact that that came from there. +We got rid of all the rubbish, put it in and started packing and erm about five minutes later the man from next door came out. +And he said er Ee he says, they're terrible houses these, you know. +I'm going to have to move soon. +I said Aye they're awkward aren't they. +He says Aye terribly. +He says, you know when I came to this house I had to have split all my furniture into little bits so I could get it up the stairs. +He says, Does your firm split furniture? +I says, You should have been here five minutes ago, we did a marvellous job. +We didn't get the job, incidentally. +I think somebody must have told him. +Another accident we had with an a wardrobe two of my lads had which was a funny one in retrospect but I some when you carry a wardrobe,funnily enough, the easiest way often if you've got a tight corner, you know as you go round a corner in a staircase you'll come from a landing and often turn right or turn left to go down, if you put it at an angle like that then you won't get it round the corner without catching the bannister. +So very often it's better to hold the wardrobe vertical and the man at the bottom end if you like holds it vertical and you go down holding it flat like that. +And when you get to er to the landing you turn it round through forty five degrees and then down a little bit further and eventually you tip it over to go down the stairs. +But very often you'll see wa men will wa go horizontal, then it'll go vertical round the corner, then nearly horizontal or at forty five down the stairs. +And that's how you do it. +But if y Some of the finishes on some of the wardrobes are particularly slippery and if they're particularly slippery then i i it's difficult often. +And in this particular instance, two of the lads were doing this very thing, coming down the stairs. +The back of the wardrobe you always have facing the bannister of course, so that the shiny bit's on the outside so it's less likely to catch anything. +Er if you catch the corner of the bannister just as you're going by, usually have a wrapper over anyway, but i it it isn't going to damage. +And he'd got round the corner, ready to go down to the rest of the stairs which went down, and then at the bottom turned round the corner again. +And the man at the bottom missed his foot. +He missed a step so he went down two instead of one. +But he'd still got hold of it. +But the man at the front hadn't been told this of course, naturally enough and he couldn't see that so suddenly with a jolt the wardrobe left him, two steps' worth instead of one at a time. +So he shot forward, and what you are trained to do as a good removal man is you drop if you're dropping anything you drop it on your toe or on your hand. +It doesn't matter if you injure yourself as long as you don't injure the customer's furniture. +So his foot went down two steps, and sure enough down came the wardrobe onto his toe and didn't do any damage and then just bounced to the next step down. +But having h done that and having gone off his toe, he the wardrobe wasn't in front of him so much as it was down there by now, and he'd still got hold of it you see, so because of the momentum,of going that way down two steps and one further one he shot forward and went right over the edge of the wardrobe. +Now of course the man at the top was depending on the man er Er the man at the bottom er was depending on the man at the top to be holding it to stop the weight fall on him. +Well there was nothing to stop him by now, there were two weights, there was the wardrobe sliding down the stairs and the man on top of it. +So he suddenly came to a halt at the bottom of this stairs as it turned the corner,with the bottom of the wardrobe rammed into his chest, pinning him to the wall. +The other man nose first was sliding down towards him, and ended up nose-to-nose with the other man, +with his feet up in the air at th the bottom end of the wardrobe, or what was now the top end. +So there they were facing each other, the man a that being squeezed er his lungs being squeezed, the man on the wardrobe n unable to move because he was upside down virtually facing him head-to-head. +The man who owned the house was laughing at all this of course, cos it did look very funny apparently. +But the problem wasn't even helped there because you see he couldn't get up the stairs easily, because the wardrobe was in the way. +So what he had to do, the the the the customer in fact, is end up by climbing up the bannister to get to the top so that he could get hold of the lad that was at the top get hold of him by the feet and pull him upwards and over and er finally free the man at the bottom. +So you see it's a dangerous job as well. +It's exciting and it's you can have all sorts . +Again f fortunately in this instance with that accident no damage was caused to his wardrobe and he was very happy with the removal, and highly amused by it I gather as well. +So those are the kind of accidents you have. +And then of course you've got the er the business of er places you're going to. +Er problems that you can have beset when you go to some places. +We had a job which was involved in loading up the day before this is in a big van, in the previous job I I had, er er a large van fu filling it full of a houseful of furniture in the afternoon,sp spending two or three hours taking it out of store, and we were asked to deliver it to an address in New Brighton. +Anybody know where New Brighton is? +It's near Walla Wallasey . +Wirral is it? +. +Wallasey. +On the Wirra on the Wirral. +Near Liverpool. +That's right, yes. +So off we went you see. +We went there, we took it with us, all this load, And what it was it was a forces couple and they were coming back to this country from Germany or somewhere like that, so we hadn't seen them. +They'd had the stuff for a couple of years in the store and we were going to meet them there, at number twenty five Lilac Avenue, New Brighton. +We got there for about half past twelve in the afternoon. +Tapped on the door, it was the last It was a cul-de-sac we found Lilac Avenue, number twenty five, It was the last one i the c in the cul-de-sac as it happened, number twenty five. +There weren't any more, if it had been twenty seven it would have been impossible. +Knocked on the door, nobody there. +Thought, That's a bit funny. +Still, you see if they're coming from somewhere like Southampton or wherever they might have come, maybe they were delayed on the journey and er So we went and had our half hour lunch. +I rang up the boss, and said We've got the right number haven't we, Lilac Avenue? +He says, Yes, twenty five,so we were happy with that. +We went back and no, still nobody there. +I looked through the window and in fact there was furniture in the place. +But then with services houses, very often, like the ones in York in Manor Drive, they're in two halves. +They don't look like that but they are,thei their er their back door goes into an upstairs converted flat. +So with forces families very often in those days, you might be delivering to the first floor. +S still wondered about it and thought This is a little funny. +Then the man came out from number twenty three. +What are you doing then? +Well, we've come to deliver this furniture for Mr so-and-so at number twenty five. +Oh no he said, there's er there won't be any furniture moving from there or to there. +I s Well how do you mean? +Oh they're not moving. +Ah. +I said Well, well they must be we've got furniture. +No no no he says, we get a lot of this kind of thing you know. +I said How do you mean? +He says Well, he says, I'm always getting mail here for twenty three Lilac Avenue, New Brighton. +Get loads of it. +It's not for me. +I said Well it must be if it's to twenty three. +Oh he says No he says there's er And this was the bit that hurt. +He says No th it's it's not here there's another New Brighton. +I said Another New Brighton? +I didn't like to ask him +. +where. +I'd spent all day going there hadn't I, half a day going there. +Spent three hours the previous day packing it. +The people needed to be living in the house that night. +I mean with removals you can't say Well I'm going to be two days late +cos the people've got to be living there. +So I I said Where's the where's the other New Brighton? +I've already done a hundred miles,where's the other Ne Well he said Well actually it's in Wales, and I thought Oh no! +. +And I had visions of it s on the south corner of Wales. +Anyway it wasn't that bad. +It was in an area called Mold, just beyond Chester, about thirty forty miles on. +So we whipped into the van and off we went. +And believe you me, we found this little village of New Brighton. +It's got a main street, and I think it'd got two other streets and that's about all and sure enough one of them was Lilac Avenue. +We got there for four. +They said We are pleased to see you. +I said Not half as pleased as we are to see you .. +. +Wouldn't have happened with a postcode would it? +Oh no, without a postcode it wouldn't. +And of course it wouldn't if we'd been more accurately given the address, but +the trouble was in many ways is the man that booked it had had thirty five years' experience of removals, he knew all the country you see. +Now I've told this tale before and some bright spark said Aye but th do you know there are five in the British Isles? +And so I when I got back from the talk I had a look and sure enough there are, throughout the British Isles there are five New Brightons. +There's one in Leeds. +So you see you you'd have gone the wrong place wouldn't you if you'd followed what +I just said you see? +Shows you never to er . +. +No well er I was learning you see quickly from these things, learning fairly quickly. +We went to another one on a Saturday job. +It was one of these jobs we were hoping It wasn't too big a load but it was a houseload, we were hoping to get mi finished for the mid-afternoon, about three o'clock in the afternoon, or four perhaps. +And erm so we set off and I can't remember which village it was but it was towards the Humber Estuary somewhere and it was what I call a cul-de-sac village. +That is, it it it petered out and that was the end of the road you see. +You went off a main road went down another road and the village was at the end of a road and that was the end of it. +You didn't you couldn't come out any other way, just the one way in and that was the finish of it. +So we d weren't worried about that, a nice big van we'd got, it was a big one so we'd got plenty of room thirteen foot high it was, nice size van for the job, and we filled it up and plenty of space left over, off we went. +When we got to within quarter of an hour q sorry quarter of a mile of the the actual village itself, and remember it's quarter of a mile I'm talking about not ten yards fifteen yards away,we saw a railway embankment in front of us. +Well, obviously there'd be a you know er a way underneath a tunnel underneath. +There was,but it said on it Twelve foot six. +And our van said thirt we was thirteen foot you see. +Well you always know that you know when they say twelve foot six it isn't quite right, they give or take a few inches. +So we edged forward and in the middle of the archway and there was about that much and it wouldn't go. +Cos the back end you know is is slightly higher than the front end and we'd just got it in and the front was about that so it wasn't gonna Oh well can you imagine the perspiration there would be, +. +walking a household of furniture quarter of a mile up the road? +I couldn't imagine, we could be there till Sunday moving it, you know. +So you let the tyres down. +Ooh there we are we've got some bright sparks here . +. +Now I didn't think of that because again I was fairly new, but the lad that was doing the job said Oh don't worry Neal we'll sort this out. +So sure enough we let the tyres down sufficiently for it to be roadworthy and not to destroy the tyres on the way there, but soft enough just so that it would go down, and we edged it through and Roy got it through the middle and off we went. +Got to the other end and I think we were unloading in about an hour and a half or so. +Two hours something like that. +Turned it round on the way back driving merrily towards the arch very happily past the pub on the left and the playing fields where they were about to play rugby I suspect. +Went past the pub you see, just about to reach the archway and I said Roy! +For goodness' sake stop. +Now when you have a house full of furniture, it weighs about five tons usually. +. +And five tons on the back of a van causes the back of a van to go down. +So there was we'd already taken the air out to get us through. +We'd now no weight on the back of the van you see. +. +So +Yes. +. +She's jumping ahead is this. +She's spoiling me stories isn't she? +. +. +Yes. +I was sweating, you could imagine thinking God we're going to have to take the wheels off and drag it through with a tractor or something like that on skids, cos we needed the van for Monday and there wasn't going to be a lot of t But then suddenly yes a again I suddenly th +. +I remembered the noise I remembered the noise as we went past the pub, so I went back to the pub and sure enough there were fifty Sorry thirty burly men. +It was er u er er rugby union obviously. +There were at least thirty big men. +I said Excuse me lads, just before you start playing can you give us a hand? +What is it? +You know. +I says Well I've got a van and it's too light at the back. +Can you pa Oh, they thought this was r great . +. +And they all jumped on the back and under we went. +So, we did, we got our van back home again you see. +Had they not done it before? +I would have thought it was a regular occurrence. +Well no we'd never had that happ . +I mean you very rarely get things that close you see. +Mm. +Er but when you think about of it i i it is, it's logical. +Must have cost you quite a lot to buy them each a drink. +Oh no, they were too good-hearted, they were all Yorkshiremen, John. +Not like you. +They were +. +burly fellows in the van, I'd have come straight back home with them . +Oh dear. +Ah but that's another story. +. +That's another story. +. +You're lucky it wasn't a rowing club. +Yeah. +. +So that was another problem you see. +So everything happens. +There are always different things occurring. +One of them of course is estimates. +Now today if you rang me up to do removals, we don't work the same way. +One of the reasons by being s a small removal firm doing light removals, I'll send one, two, three men out. +But if you wanted a single bed moving, then the cheapest way would be just to have one man, he comes we charge you for the time we take, with a minimum of an hour's charge. +So we charge for the time we go to the first address pick the thing up go to the second unload and get back to depot. +If it's done within the hour we charge the hour. +If it takes an hour and five minutes, we charge an hour and a quarter to get for the time to get back. +And of course if you book over the phone, then it can be done that way. +But if we were doing as we do a lot of jobs like that and I had to go round and estimate every one it would cost me more to go round and estimate than it would to do the jobs. +You see adverts in the press that say Free Estimates, well of course they aren't. +If you get a firm that's doing big removals, inside the cost of that is the cost of an estimator to go around and look at half the jobs he's not going to get. +He's going to give a price and somebody else is going to give a price in competition, and half the time if he's lucky he'll get the jobs. +But I did learn that when I was doing full-scale removals. +As I say, nowadays I get the information from you over the phone, and then when we've got somebody who said Oh no, it's only a small flat,I've got this this and this and that's the big pieces of furniture, er if it's somebody that's done it on spec I say Well look give me a ring back in an hour if er when you've come off the phone you er there's something you've forgotten. +Or sometimes if they're not sure I'll say Well before we book it can you just have a run round the house and then ring me back tell me actually what there is to go. +And then I can give them an idea of price, and we can work out what it's going to cost. +If it's s something like that and they tell me the amount of furniture and if two thirds of the van will be filled with big stuff, and then they tell me there'll be half a dozen boxes, I assume there'll be at least four times that number of boxes, and if it's still going to go on, we'll do it. +We had a job this week that was booked in +Er estimating I was on wasn't I? +That's right yes. +And erm so er er if people do that And er this this businessman, this week, he he rang and he he was sending messages via the secretary, instead of getting on the phone to me and and me finding out what there was, he finally he s he said There'll be about an hour's work. +Tell him there's about an hour's work. +Oh I think there'll be an hour's work, she said. +Now I know the man. +So I said There's no way that what you've just told me will go in an hour, I said It'll take at least a couple of hours and what about all the small stuff he'll have in the house? +So she relayed that and I heard it Well what about the small stuff? +Oh we haven't got much. +We'll take that in the car. +Came back again. +So I said Well no, I said Two hours it's got to be otherwise you'll never cover for that. +D I didn't want to give him a false impression. +So er it was decided that he it would be one man because he would give a hand. +So he only wanted o one man, and it w if I allowed two hours. +I've got to make allowances you see cos I've got to fill the day f with jobs for the other lads, so if I allow two hours I've got to fill the other six. +So I need to know beforehand, within half an hour or so. +Now we got off the phone and knowing the man I allowed three. +His wife rang up the following day. +Could we move the piano as well at the same time? +I said Not with one man we can't, no. +. +I said +we always use at least three for a piano because although two men can lift them very often if you're going round awkward corners it helps to have a third person s to steady them. +So I says What we can do is I'll do an hour for you, we'll move the piano and other bits, bicycles in this case that he had, we'll shift them to the house close by, drop two men off, and one man'll come and do the remainder of the work. +Does that sound re ? +Yes, she was happy with that. +I said We've got one man booked anyway for the re Oh she says Don't want one, he's hopeless is my husband, he'll never manage, you'd better put two men on the second half as well you see. +. +So I just said in passing, I said Well your husband's allowed up to two hours, he thinks it's only gonna t Ooh she's says it won't take that, no. +Good Lord no it'll take more. +G allow another hour will you? +Well I already had you see. +So there we were, one hour plus three. +We did the job this week. +Seven hours it took. +. +Seven hours. +I told them that at one we'd be going away on another job cos we'd got another job booked in, but in fact I reorganized everything so that in fact we could do it for them. +But that's the kind of problem you meet. +He was was quite right, it didn't take an hour. +It didn't take an hour, you're right. +. +I'll tell him that when I see him, yes . +When he's paid the bill. +But that's the kind of thing that can happen, cos y people aren't aware. +When I moved from my own place er in Walmgate to here I still underestimated how much furniture I'd got. +And it is very difficult to assess. +So with the big firms, when you're doing a full house and you you aren't just going to have a few bits like you would for a light removal, off you go and you estimate. +I remember going on one of the first ones with the boss. +It was in Poppleton. +End of a cul-de-sac. +And we went in the house three-bedroomed semi-detached house. +Walked in the lady said Oh right, you can can have a look round and showed us the rooms. +The two main bedrooms a small back room living room er drawing th front room and the kitchen. +We saw all the furniture and my boss didn't list everything. +I do. +I was learning a lot over the period of making mistakes as you can imagine. +So I was learning from my own mistakes and others at the time er things like getting the right county where the New Brighton happen to be and things like that I was learning. +And er so he didn't list it. +He'd had thirty five years' experience, he was looking at th and and in his mind's eye putting the jigsaw puzzle into the van as it were to work out how much space it would take. +He said Right, yes, and he looked at that and Is that everything? +Have you anything outside in the garage? +Well, my husband's got the key. +Well there's nothing much there's a bench there's a couple of tea chests there's an old cooker and I think probably five or six bo Is that all? +Yes, that's all there is. +Oh fair enough, if you're sure, Yes, you see. +So we left and the boss told me that how he would work it out and how it would take probably something in the order of two thirds of that particular van that w we were going to use, if it was packed about six foot high. +Brilliant you see, he's done it for so many years can work out the space and everything. +Sent an estimate. +Now estimates are are actually that. +You estimate that. +But if you send an estimate you more or less have to say what you're moving as well because if there's more than that and you don't put down what you're moving then you're p stuck with the estimate really and in p practice that's what usually happens,you give an estimate and then you do it for that price. +So he sent the estimate and we got the job. +It was to near Leeds. +I went with the boss to do it so that we could follow up the practice of the theory you see. +The husband was there then. +We took his four- poster bed down that he wanted taking down that he cherished for some peculiar reason,and then we moved all the other bits of furniture, and as we w were sort of getting most of the furniture out of the first bedroom he said Don't forget the loft will you? +So we said What loft? +. +Oh didn't my wife tell you about the loft? +No no she didn't tell us about the loft. +Oh well would you like to go and have a look? +So we went and had and there was a little space, you know normal bit bigger than average and a little hooked thing and it opened up and down came some steps and we went up with trepidation I must say. +There was as much in the loft as there was on the whole first floor. +My the boss said a few things under his breath, came down the steps and we went back into the van. +Cos we had to repack it you see because it was going to take a it was going to take probably not it was going to go right to the end with this lot on. +So up it went higher. +Not the six foot he'd thought, seven or eight foot we went up and started to pack away again. +A little bit sarcastically my boss said er to the owners There's nothing else that we haven't seen is there? +.Well have you seen the gar ? +Well your wife said there w Oh well you'd better come and have a look, you see . +. +So we went and had a look at the garage. +Did it have a car in it? +No, there wasn't a car. +It was a two it was a two-car garage. +Full to the gunwales. +Full +? +to the gunwales. +Oh rubbish, all sor . +Boxes. +There was er there was the cooker er there was a cooker there was two fridges there was a disused ba er washing machine there was a And it all needed to go apparently. +So of course inevitably what happened is we got the house lot in just, took it to this place in Leeds, got finished with that load and back for four which is what the estimate had covered us for, and then we had to start all over again with what was in the garage. +Even then we were in for a surprise you see, because at the end of the You know how most houses have a rectangular plot within which the house is put? +But the ones at the back aren't. +On the corner of the cul-de-sac they go off at an angle don't they. +And depending whether it's a rectangular plot or whether it isn't or not or if it's slightly at an angle then some of the corner houses have a fairly long gardens. +Well we'd seen to the back of the garden anyway cos we could see the hedge going across like that at forty five degrees. +But he said to us You won't forget the stuff in the hut will you? +. +Cos we'd had a recce by then and had a look round and you see. +Well we said What hut? +Well apparently that wasn't the end of the garden you see cos that came across like this and when you went through a gap in the hedge about another twenty yards further on in the far distance it seemed there was the hut. +And when I opened the door everything fell out. +. +So we'd got about forty yards to march to the er the van before we even got that on board. +We finished that job about ten thirty that night. +And of course my boss because he hadn't listed what we'd seen +Was lumbered with the estimate. +Was lumbered with the estimate. +And that's what he had to pay . +For twice the amount of work. +For twice the amount of work yeah. +So I again it's something I learned from that. +It was funny, actually it was on that one, I think he was a little bit erm sexually-orientated more than average this gentleman, cos he'd got the four poster bed. +This was before they became a popular thing you know. +This was an original he was very proud of this and he kept telling us about this. +His wife kept a distance, she said nowt, but he was quite proud about this. +But you don't get this very often now but you it's funny how sometimes you get gifts when you're on removals, and this was this particular instance. +Because not only had all this lot to be moved, but halfway through the removal he suddenly remembered there was something else needed moving, shot to the stairs with a white face, opened the door in under the stairs and out came all the bits and pieces from there. +Oh don't forget these lads, but he said I've got a present for you lads . +Conspiratual of tone. +That th w thickness +. +of girlie magazines. +. +Here you are lads, get rid of them quick won't you?. +. +We used to have a stock of them . +They don't now with with liberated women they don't allow it now you know. +The the men are no longer liberated and can have them so they just y it's quite funny but you don't get them now. +It's funny how er th trends change, but that was a was quite a common occurrence was that, men feeling ashamed of what they'd got but trying er er in terms of these magazines giving them as if they were doing you a favour. +And of course for some of the lads it was. +They weren't there in the they weren't in this office for very long before they disappeared elsewhere . +And er er but it's funny how that should happen. +The corollary to that sad case actually was when after we'd moved them we got another phone call six months lad er later from this very lady who was leaving the house and moving out. +She'd had enough of him obviously. +Magazines,four-poster bed the lot . +. +Yes that was that was sufficient for her. +And we moved her back, so we did get something else out of the job as well. +Do you think a four-poster's more erotic than a divan? +Not me personally, no I I +. +Yes? +Ye No I yes I I f would have thought it could be quite obstructive in certain circumstances . +. +. +But I wouldn't know of course. +Yes, maybe, I don't know. +. +Yeah. +Yeah. +. +I've not had that ye that problem with that. +Yeah no I'd er . +So there you ar Now then we get another kind of job. +This this one I'm going to tell you about Are we alright for time? +Are you not in +Yes. +You're alright so far? +Erm er this o this one is not one single job as it happens but it is the kind of thing that we have come up against before and I've put them the things together in one so that we don't identify people really under the circumstances. +But +. +In the early stages we were we you know used to take phone calls and take them at face value, and we got a phone call like this. +Erm, lady's voice. +Er I wonder er what time do you start in the morning? +So he said Well we start at mm half past eight eight o'clock time usually. +Could you start a job at about half past nine in the morning? +Yes madam, no problem there. +How long would it take you to get the furniture out? +Would you be out by midday? +. +I can see what's coming. +. +So I said well it depends how much there is you know, we we are only a light removal firm, we don't have Oh no no well there's no problem there, it's only half a houseload. +. +Now the advice a few years er be from the s solicitor was not in quite the the th precisely these words but if somebody was leaving, I mean if the wife was leaving the husband, the instructions were basically Love,get your furniture out, hide it somewhere, and argue about who owns what afterwards. +And that was the kind of advice some years ago was being given by solicitors. +So what we were doing of course is we were moving in taking her half of the stuff and moving it out. +Now on one occasion, as I say this is a conglomerate this is of several things put together, but one happened rather like this. +We got there round about the half past nine. +Hubby had gone of course. +Er it was a cul-de-sac job. +And we started s to put the stuff in at the front and whatnot you see. +And then we started to get to the big stuff. +It always happens with the big stuff really. +We've got well under way with the job, she's very white,sh you can imagine why, she's feeling very you know she's very sort of edgy as you move things out and she's deciding what to move. +. +Now on that particular day Because the husband is unaware of these things you see. +But that particular day she didn't know beforehand, this was planned a few weeks in advance as you can imagine. +But he's off to see his area manager in Leeds. +It's an unusual day cos he's got to have create a good impression with the boss you see, the area manager, there might be something in it for him. +So he's rushing around and flapping this morning before he goes off just before nine. +And off he shoots in his car, his splendid company car. +Up he goes, off he goes. +We arrive a few minutes later you see, to plan, and we're putting the stuff in. +He forgets something and comes back. +He's just adjusting his outfit as he's in the car driving up the Tadcaster road and he looks with horror. +He's forgotten to put his tie on. +So what does he do? he turns round and comes back. +And it's sod's law you know because nearly always these things happen +Mm. +when we've got the worst bit. +It's either a six-foot high with sharp edges f fridge freezer or a cooker which all the back's got grease on and is sliding out of our hands as we carry it. +And sure enough, down the street this man drives. +Can you imagine, you're in his position? +. +A happily married man you think, coming down the road and suddenly there are some clow clowns actually with a van parked outside your house, moving what you recognize as your fridge freezer out through the door. +Now y I mean you've got no preconception th th y idea that this is going to ha happen at all. +So you leap. +And he leapt out of the vehicle,What the bloody hell do you think you're doing with this lot?! +So I look a bit shaken cos we've he's just come from nowhere, screeching to a halt. +Moving this fur . +Bloody fools or something?! +It's the wrong bloody house! +I'm not moving! +I say Well I'm very sorry sir, but the lady inside says y The what?! +. +But the lady inside, she said to er Take it back in! +And the lo the that bloody lot! +I want it back inside! +But i we've been to I don't give a damn what you've And er of cour naturally enough you see. +It's a job you get shouted at is removals, very often. +. +So you go to the door and you open the door and you walk backwards. +It's like one of these films in reverse you know. +And this time you're coming backwards and +this way on. +And the lady's going What what what on earth happened? +I want that out I want that There's a man behind us and he says if we don't bring it in he's going to kill us. +Oh good god no! +Well And then there's there's y er y he can't get in the house cos you're in the way and he's trying to push past and y we don't know where the hell to go. +You know, we don't know what to do with the bloody bit. +Get the bloody thing back in the k ! +Oh, you know I don't want it in the kitchen, oh! +So then there's a s set-to inside the hallway. +Now of course the difficulty you can't i it's a personal thing and you don't like standing watching all this operation going on for too long. +. +At the same time you've got to try when there's a break in the in the shouting to explain that the longer they shout the c more it's gonna cost if you actually do do the removal, +and even if you don't it's gonna c you know And er you get a few choice words and then eventually you say Well well look we'll go outside and sit outside for a few minutes and d and wait till you've decided what and don't forget i time you kn you kn +Yeah. +and you know. +. +And so you wait outside. +It's fifty-fifty. +The result, that is. +Fifty-fifty usually. +You know you th either come back and they're embracing each other and cuddling and there're a few tears and everything and er everything's hunkydory and you start traipsing back in with all the bloody stuff you've just brought out from beforehand you see. +. +The other fifty percent of the time of course is i it's split again because they're arguing like And he comes charging out Take the bloody lot, I don't care! +. +. +And Oh well, I'm not telling you you see. +Cos as I say it's a mixture of a few you see. +But actually in between, I'd forgotten the in between bit of course is while all this pandemonium's going on, the neighbourhood didn't realize she was moving, or perhaps one or two did. +But you know it's it's a strange thing, you don't realize how conscientious English people are. +How often they come out and clean their windows. +. +Mow their lawns. +. +Paint the door. +Tell you this time they were out all in full force you know. +Like a cup of tea? +Whilst you're waiting. +What's going on in there? +You know, it's it's it's +. +And it's not professional to say anything. +It's professional to take the tea of course, but you don't say anything after you've got it. +But of course he comes up Take the bloody l ! +And so I er you er you you start to take it back out again. +And then of +Just back like a yoyo, backwards and forwards. +And so it goes on. +And eventually you you either do and he drives off and nearly runs into rams into a lamppost or something like that on his way when he's finally given up, or else sometimes as I say they get together and er everything's hunkydory. +But of course the problem then is after all that, whichever way, whether you move them or you don't, you've taken time. +You've probably taken two hours getting the stuff out and then putting it back in again, and if you move it you've taken a lot longer. +Nobody wants to pay. +. +The bloke certainly doesn't want to pay, he didn't book you. +The woman doesn't want to p play because she doesn't think it's her fault. +And if they get together neither wants to pay because they haven't done anything, we've only taken the stuff out and put it back in again. +. +So the usual thing eventually after five months waiting for payment is to find out the bloody solicitor that told them this you see and inform the the solicitors that er his client has not yet paid us and we it ought to be done and eventually that's how we get the money. +Well it was her fault really for not checking he'd got his tie on. +Yes that's right.. +So as you see it's not a boring job. +One time no a long time ago, which it might actually, might you might have been at the meeting, I don't know. +But This club as you know opens at eight o'clock in the evening. +Now I've done removals before then, not so much now, but I at one time used to be out on the road doing removals myself very often and I would get in for about seven o'clock in the evening get a quick grab something to eat, rush round this place, put the fires on and get it ready. +Now today there are two people working one or two, there's somebody on the door somebody o o o on the bar because we get fifty people into the club often now. +But in those days, in the early days, we used to be lucky to get twenty or thirty didn't we? +And we'd maybe just have two meetings on. +So one couldn't justify having two people on board doing the job when in fact what was involved was bringing you in signing you in and then serving you. +So I used to do both jobs, sign you in then rush to the bar. +It was like Fawlty Towers, I'd be to the bar +. +It's alright for you regulars who know what it's like, but imagine somebody new coming to the club. +You wander in, you pay your ninety P, and I say If you just go through that door please, and the next minute I'm out at the bar as well saying What would you like to drink? +. +But that's how it had got to be in the early days, otherwise it would have cost more to run than I took. +And it was one of those such nights that at half past seven I'd just got most of the fires set and ready to er er just on and going and I'd half an hour to get everything straightened and ready for eight o'clock opening, and the door at the back went, which was where the office used to be. +And it's another shouting job again. +Open the door Want me bloody furniture back! +That's all he said. +I said Sorry? +Sorry sir? +You've taken my furniture! +I says I beg your pardon? +It's gone! +I said, I'm sorry can you tell what's the name? +So he told me his name, I think it's something like Mr . +I said Sorry we haven't moved a to You moved my bloody furniture, today. +It's gone I tell you. +I go out to work this morning at nine o'clock, I come back, I open the kitchen door, four o'clock this afternoon walk into my kitchen empty! +It's all gone! +I couldn't believe it. +I went into the living room. +All my bloody furniture's gone from the living I went upstairs the lot's gone! +And you've got it! +I said I'm sorry Mr but we haven't got Er come with me into the office, I'll show you, we've nothing till for a Mr . +I said Where's it from? +He said Tockwith . +Oh. +I said Tockwith? +I said Just a minute but We've had a Mrs . +Mrs Cooper rang us up. +We've taken her, yes we've moved her stuff to th to the store I said. +That's her! +My housekeeper. +She's only been with me six weeks. +. +I said Serious He said I want i I want my stuff back now. +I says I I er no no messing around I want it back. +Well I says I'm very sorry but I says it's six miles away in a store, we don't attend stores in the evening, I've nobody to come d I've got Where the hell do you think I'm going to sleep tonight? +I says Well I must admit it is yes I you know I He said I'm going to get a policeman if you're not careful. +He says I want a poli I want my bloody b furniture back tonight, otherwise I'm going to get a policeman. +Well by this time it was ten to eight and I'd got all these members were going to be outside, I was going to have to let them in and serve them and I was getting a bit frantic you see. +I said Well look, you go and get the policeman I'll ring my solicitor up and then we'll sort it out from there. +So off he went in high dudgeons as you can imagine you know, red-faced, excited. +Well you would be wouldn't you if you'd nowhere to sleep on the night? +. +Imagine going home tonight, opening the back and there's nothing there. +It's not funny is it? +You know. +So I rang my solicitor and he wasn't there. +So I then rushed to the front of the building, I said Look, will you come in please? +Go up to your rooms, and I'll take your money off you later. +I'm sorry I can't serve you now but I'll get back to the bar as soon as I can. +So these poor people came in and I s it was actually it was an Argosy club night. +That's why you might have been on it you see. +And er or yourself maybe? +Do you remember that? +No. +It was many many years ago, but it's it definitely i this is what happened. +I mean probably the members didn't realize what was going on. +And er so I shot back to the phone, tried a second partner finally the third partner in the solicitors firm that I deal with was there. +So I explained what had happened. +He says Well you're quite right n y I Cos I didn't think we You know I'd said to the man already it's quite possible I wouldn't be able to really take the stuff out of store for him. +He'd have to t Cos you see there was no proof of ownership. +Mrs was the person that had contacted me. +So he said You're quite right. +Mrs made a verbal contract with her. +When you arrived at the house she was in residence. +So you'd made a verbal contract over the phone with a lady who you found living on the premises so you had every right to believe that she owned the furniture. +If that man wants his furniture back and it is his, because it might not be,he'll have to get a court order. +So I told him that when he came back with the policeman. +. +. +I know. +Well the policeman was there anyway wasn't he? +You know . +. And the policeman just Well of course this is a civil matter he sai He wanted to get his tea no doubt you know, and he wanted to be off . +. +So he r he disappeared from view and the man'd quietened down a bit. +I said Look I'm I really am very sorry. +I said I wish I could provide you with a bed, I can't. +I said I wish I could because I I I am sorry for your situation. +But I cannot take it out of store because I would be breaking the law effectively if I did. +I said All you can do basically is go to a solicitor, get a court order, unless I can persuade the lady herself to let you have the furniture. +Now I'd also in this time rung up the er forwarding address in Manchester, rung up the telephone number I'd been given of the forwarding address. +Because she'd paid the bill for the removal. +And I had to have an address to send the bill for the storage, which I would send to her on account every three months. +And she'd gone you see. +She'd So I thought well I'd I Well he'd I didn't say what he'd done I didn't ask about that, I mean I had I had enough trouble without asking questions like that you see. +And erm I rang the lady it turned out it was mother that was on the phone at Manchester. +And she said Oh yes I says Well I'll tell you what's happened Oh she says My daughter's a hussy. +She reall s I you know I've always had trouble with my Oh she I can understand, The poor man she said, I do feel sorry. +I said Well er don't worry about that I said er you know But can you give me your daughter's phone number or address so I can contact her and get this sorted out? +I wish I could love, but she says I can't help you. +She said she's just went on she go she a after your removal today she got on a boat at Southampton, and she's on her way to Australia. +. +And she was. +And what was the outcome of this? +Well, within about ten days I got a phone call from a solicitor er in Leeds telling me to let me ha let the bloke have the stuff. +I said Well I'm sorry you'd better refer to my solicitor who's told me that you need a court order. +And the trail went dead for about another fortnight, I didn't hear any more so, I thought Well maybe it isn't you see, maybe it isn't this chap's furniture after all. +A fortnight later from Bradford, another set of solicitors rang up, explained that they understood the circumstances, said Look c could I hold the stuff there and what was I going to charge for the storage etcetera, er and they would be going to have to get an affidavit from this lady in Australia at some stage in order to give er him the chance to have the stuff back. +They'd need an affidavit to say This is not mine, it belongs to Mr er whatever his name was I've forgotten it now. +And er +. +Mr , thank you. +And er so that's what he had Do you know how long it took, all that lot? +A year! +What the hell did he do meanwhile? +. +. +carried away anyway. +Well you see, I didn't know what had taken place. +He said it was my housekeeper you see. +Now I I'm I'm only a simpleton in these matters. +. +. +Yes y yes that's right,y +housekeeper. +Y that's that's right yes. +And obviously I think it was a revenge job by the sound of it. +And it took a year for him to get it back. +In fact then he by that time he was living in Leeds, so he had to pay for the cost of removal from my store to Leeds. +I charged him only half the normal price. +So I didn't make a loss but I didn't make a profit on the bit of space that I need that I was using for storage cos I thought it was only fair to the poor bloke. +And in fact it shows a lot for human nature because he was chuckling away at the end of it all and he even gave the lads who did the job a tip. +So it's er but it's a funny world isn't it, eh? +. +And er so not only is it fun, and exciting, but quite risky. +You know, you +. +So that gives you an idea of what goes on with doing removals. +There are all sorts of other tales, but I think by now I've yes I've just about er had e had enough time I think now, haven't I? +Bef er I'll start boring you soon with other bits and pieces. +Any questions at all? +Have you ever been threatened with anything? +Not quite, but these split jobs where you have a split between couples, it can get a little bit heavy at times. +But my instructions for the lads have always been that if you go to a job for a lady particularly and then a man comes along and starts to get stroppy, you'll have to explain to the lady you may have to leave it temporarily and go back. +But we've never quite had to do that. +Erm but it's been near. +I remember one, the chap called Dave in York who er has a removal firm +. +Yes, well I was on a r a radio programme with him at one time and er and he was telling about some of his sticky stories, and there was one where he was doing a similar job from a farmhouse and he picked the furniture up and had to drive down this long drive to get onto the road and the the farmer, who presumably was the man who felt er an injustice to him was being done as it were, he was on his tractor, saw the van moving down the driveway, took a shortcut to the road edge, and fired a shotgun at his van.. +. +And he said as he drove off down the road it went rattle rattle rattle rattle and there were these hole little holes in the side of his van.. +So we've never come as er as quite as close as that. +His brother Melvin, er who has another removal firm in York, erm he had a funny experience too that I've not hac had. +We move pianos on ground floor. +We're light removals, but we will move a piano with three men. +I have moved pianos upstairs, in certain cases where it's a very open staircase and a straight one, but we won't normally do that cos er we need the equipment to do it, the proper sled and everything and we haven't got those things because we wouldn't be asked upon to do it often enough. +And er but he did one did Melvin, and he he was trotting up the stairs with three men pushing you see, two at the bottom one at the top guiding it, and the top of the piano started to disappear into the staircase. +Because it was an old house that they were renovating, and it had got so much rot in it and woodworm, and he said he said he said th there they were walking up one minute and the next minute the piano was just going down through the stairs . +And he said Eventually with ropes and various other tackle it took seven of them to lift the piano back up again out of the gap that it had produced in the stairs and get it up the stairs. +So y tell you, it's amazing the the kind of remarkable things. +One other one, if I may just, that I've just remembered that A lady who had a Again this is when I was big removals. +She lived in a one-bedroom flat in St George's Place as you may know those council flats. +Very small, very compact, very nice little places. +And he booked it over the phone, said Is it a standard flat? which was a silly thing to ask cos to everybody who lives in a house, they've a standard amount of furniture. +Nobody believes they are excessive. +Oh I've got an average amount they say and everybody's average is different of course. +living on her own, so he assumed it take three and a half hours did the boss. +She mentioned that she kept had some Ercol furniture. +You know the kind, that lovely blar dark brown furniture. +We arrived on this job, first floor, and we went and opened the door. +She said I must mention I've had a few more deliveries from Ercol So we walked into the living room. +You know how people collect stamps? +. +And if you've got a c country's stamps they collect the whole lot, you know, they don't just collect they collect the whole range all in one f And she'd done this with her furniture. +She lived on her own, I I think she was an ex-nurse if I remember rightly. +And she said the extra bits she'd got completed the collection. +They were wall units. +You know, six foot high, one of them was six foot wide. +The other one was only four foot wide because of course she needed to collect the whole lot you see, and then the next one was three foot wide. +All three of those had just arrived the day before. +Plus a drop-leaf table. +She'd got about six little normal dining chairs, and then there there were the carver chairs, she'd got about six of those. +She'd got all the array of occasional tables they then did. +She'd got the sort of sideboard. +She'd got a bureau. +Everything in the bloody catalogue at Ercol she'd got. +The only problem was that there was no space to walk! +And in this last day, she must have been camping about, I don't know how, but somehow she was traversing I she probably didn't she was using the living room as a store, I could only think that, she couldn't possibly live in it. +And we had to shift this lot. +But added to that, when you went into the bedroom,there was the normal wardrobe and the dressing table and the chest of drawers. +Behind the wardrobe were there all sorts of things. +On top of the wardrobe w there were big plastic bags. +Full. +Chock-a-block. +Under the bed. +There wasn't any dust under the bed really because there was no room for the dust because it was jam-packed +. +full of bags. +Sh Don't forget she said There's a coal house outside. +I said I'm sorry love, we don't move coal. +. +Oh she's says It's not coal, no, I don't use it for coal, she sa I've got gas central heating, we don't need No it's just that er well there are a few things in there. +We I mean you know with coal houses they they're about this wide, about that high, of course you don't put the coal that high do you cos it's forty five degrees job. +And it goes back about six or seven foot doesn't it usually? +And you open just like a little shelter. +Same thing as as I mentioned before. +It all fell out. +Bags. +. +? +Yes, certainly. +She'd got all the clothes she'd ever had. +You know those little party dresses, what are they called, tutu dresses? +Mm. +That five-year-olds have to go for parties. +She'd still got one of those in a plastic bag. +. +. +Everything that she must have had in clothes she'd kept. +All the shoes from little tiny ones, right up to the current. +Oh.. +She'd got a bag full of light bulbs. +. +Not new light bulbs, the ones that she'd taken out and put into the plastic bag. +. +. +There w Honestly, they were all She wasn't going to chuck anything away at all. +I forget what mania this is, there's a word for it isn't there? +recycling. +Is it? +Well recycling yes, but not the mania. +Yeah. +. +Kleptomania, yeah? +No she didn't. +I mean I don't know whether she thought she could put them in the garden when she got to the new place and they'd grow but +. +There were five dozen jars, literally five dozen jars of jam. +And as you can imagine they weren't all fresh. +. +Forty jars of marmalade. +. +She could use the sugar she'd got for building bricks for a new shed I reckon, the amount she'd got there. +. +And all solid, you know. +It was all over the place. +Under the sink, behind the cupboards, every single where you could imagine was chock-a-block. +That job took nine and a half hours. +It was estimated for three and a half. +Because we started in the afternoon that day, should have finished about half past four five, went on till seven, and then wen went ne next morning to get the next lot. +But the funniest thing of all was that the flat she was going in, the floor area was less than the one she'd left. +. +The only gain she'd got was it was about another two or three foot up to the ceiling. +. +And that that li literally was what we did. +I mean she was chuffed. +She thought it was great, marvellous, you know she was very pleased with us. +I bet she was at that price. +And she was a marvellous woman, you know wonderful. +But all I mean the shoes and the lot and everything. +Nothing went at all. +So y you see there's another s strange funny thing that can happen you see. +And this is ordinary days . +Have you ever Sorry Neal. +Have you ever gone to remove someone and they've been still been in bed or been having their breakfast or something you know? +Or something like that yes .. +. +. +Or making a meal of it y Making a meal it you mean? +Yes. +. +Oh yes, I mean very often I mean er you often go you very often. +I mean if somebody rings you up and says How much will it cost? if it's er a sort of full removal you're doing, you say Well are you packing or aren't you? +Because if you're packing then we'll dr bring er the forty boxes out fore beforehand. +We don't use tea chests, incidentally, we use we wine boxes that we get from wine merchants, empty ones. +Because people will put books into tea chests then you can't lift them. +You have to do a Chinese walk like this with them with a man on the other side holding the box like this because there isn't the distance. +So we use cardboard boxes and even if you're moving crockery, you put half or a third of what you'd put in a tea chest goes into er a a a cardboard box. +You carry it out, and as long as the lid As long as you pack stuff so that the top doesn't come above the le level of the lid, you won't get any damage done, and it's much easier. +And again a man a removal man you see can leave cardboard boxes, you don't need to have them by, we'll collect them if you want. +But on the other hand as is often the case, there's so much that you've got you don't need, that when you finish your removal you want a whole lot of boxes in the corner out the way until you've sorted er everything else out. +So th that can happen. +But if people don't pack, as was the example of this job to this last week that took till erm the time it was it was four o'clock as I said when they finished. +Erm that would have been much much quicker if they'd bothered and organized them but they hadn't organized anything. +They were just there. +And the I suppose they expected to whirl round like that and all go into the er the the boxes. +And that's why it took a long long time. +We don't mind doing it. +But basically if people plan and pack beforehand, These these for example, erm, the black plastic bag, your dustbin bags, marvellous things. +If you've got clothes, your coats and dresses, and fold them over once, and then put them into a bag like that and we put them gently on top of the load, they come to no harm at all. +And big things like your er cooking utensils, your your your pans, they are best put into black plastic bags tied at the top. +Cos then they take any shape up you see. +When you put them on board they just will change shape so they'll fit in and they're marvellous for for packing in. +And they're a way of getting a lot a lot of things in a in a in a space. +Er but that kind of thing can make such a difference, but people sometimes are, as you say,they're not prepared. +I mean I I once had a job, it was booked Er now what do they call the road? +I always forget the name of the road. +You know Marble Arch, what's the long road that goes off Marble Arch? +Edgeware Road. +Edgeware Road, thank you, yes. +We had a b I got a booking one night. +I should have known better but I got a booking about half past nine in the evening. +Can you pick up for us, please, perhaps a part-load price, for a bedroom suite from number seven Edgeware Road, when you're going? +And as it happened, we were likely to be able to go. +What you do is i er erm At one time when business was booming you may have as many as twelve enquiries over one month for the London area. +So you'd try and parcel together, er say, four. +And if you got four together you may be two down or three down and one back, you could make it pay, and share the cost out between everyone. +And I was able to do this, so that half the fee was being paid for a three-piece suite going, some boxes, to another address, and then this bedroom suite was taking the other half of the charge back. +And I arranged it on that day at the time. +They went down in one day, unloaded the two separate loads, got round to number seven Edgeware Road the next day. +It was a shop. +And when we think about it, Edgeware Road, number seven, it is pretty early on, I ought to have realized, but I didn't know London well enough then. +So we went into the shop, said Sorry to bother you, but Mr so-and-so er number seven is there a flat upstairs? +No, it's our storeroom upstairs. +It was only a two- storey building. +Er well we're after Oh there's nobody li nobody lives here at number seven Edgeware Road. +Somebody would've been drunk that night you see, half past nine at night, thought it was a good trick. +Oh. +So I'd gone all the way down there and come back for half price basically, and lost on it. +So you learn. +And we never heard from it again. +If it had been genuine, they'd have been on the phone quick enough if we'd not arrived. +But there was no nobody lived there at all. +And it was just And of course what else can you do in many ways ? +. +As I say I ought to have had savvy enough, Edgeware Road, the first part of it, is purely commercial as you know, er er erm but I hadn't realized that at the time. +So that's you know the kind of thing.. +When you say that people have been bad packing things, +Yes. +I always understood that if you packed things, you weren't insured. +No well y y there is some truth in that, yes. +In th i in the old days when a firm would come along and pack everything, then they said that, and that was quite true, that they would pack everything and then they would be responsible if damage was done. +There's still always the argument with certain firms as to whether it was done before or after. +But from a practical point of view as time has gone on, most people now are aware that they want to save money. +And as packing can take half the time of the total removal and even more in certain circumstances, most people opt for that. +And a what I would say is that if you pack carefully, and I advise people as to how to pack crockery You don't put plates th s big plates on the bottom and then build up, because that puts a tremendous weight on the middle of the big plates at the bottom. +You put them edgeways up and you put newspaper in between. +And we usually say Anything that you think is too fragile, let us pack. +And when we get there, there's probably four or five boxes to pack, but the rest is done, like books and crockery and things like th normal crockery. +It can save immense time. +And we've not had I I must say that over the years I might have had two cases perhaps when there's been a query with regard to that in terms of packing. +We've not had that problem. +But some firms do, and then they won't f they won't pay obviously, because they don't think it's their problem . +nineteen sixty one . +Yeah. +But that was the practice. +But because labour related to cost of the total has gone up so much, er i i most people now prepared to pack would prefer to do. +There is a s distinct advantage of course is when you get to the other end if you've labelled it all or you know y what you've put into which box, you know what you want out immediately, like the kettle. +As we all look er c hopefully you know . +. +Like the kettle you see. +Or else you er er er you you know Well I won't need that, it can all go in the corner. +I mean when I moved I had stuff in here before the upstairs was used, I had it for about a year or so, before I opened it up . +Do you do you pr pr er er erm supply boxes in advance? +Yes, oh yes. +Yeah I mean if it's somebody wanting to move a three-piece suite and just a few books, no, we'd do it at the time. +But if it's a proper removal job we're doing then yes we would. +We'd go beforehand for no charge, drop the stuff off. +As long as you're not living in Newcastle. +Then that +Er +would be a different matter you see. +Gateshead. +Yes. +. +How do you suggest pack glasses then? +Erm well when you're getting to glasses, erm there is a way. +If you take erm Depends on the shape of them, but very often if you put a piece of newspaper round and then face the corner of one into the into you could put one into the bottom of the next and do it in a square. +So one goes into there and the next one'll go at forty five de like that. +So the who Th one goes into there, if it's a cup shall we say, a cup goes in The opening of that cup goes into the corner of that, +Oh I see, yeah. +and do it round, you see, in a circle. +Now if they're long narrow ones you can't. +So the best thing is to put the piece of paper in in a wadge and then come out on the outside and pack it vertically and put them next to each other like that. +The main thing is to get a piece of paper between each piece of glassware so that if it does move, And if you j you just pack a piece of paper in er er fold it over a little er and push it in,i i so you stop movement. +But even then in boxes if they're in boxes very rare rarely do you get damage. +Very rarely. +What about emergency stops? +You know you've got that big thing over the cab,say you put chairs and things. +What happens if you haven't quite put the the other goods quite up to that level? +Oh, so that you're usi +. +Well y Yes, but no but you see if you do an emergency stop it all runs to the front anyway. +Yeah. +It's only if you do an emergency start and shoot off the road at high speed, which vans aren't capable of. +They can't drive like +We can't drive our vans like you do your car out the car park you know. +. +. +Yeah. +get forty miles an hour down . +Yes, yeah. +. I remember one thing, talking about things falling out and one of We had to go and pick up erm er er There was a great business you know about these er what are they called these these games. +Not not billiards, what is it now? +The the American? +No er er +Er +pool . +Pool. +Pool tables. +We used to deliver them to various different places where they were rented out. +And then of course they the the the fashion died out and the owner had to get his pool tables back. +And very often the people wouldn't pay the rent for them you see, so they weren't very happy weren't the people u losing the pool table, but the owner was saying Sorry you're not paying your rent enough, we're not getting enough out of the machine, I want it back. +And the he sent one of my lads we used to do a lot in the area for him, and obviously he can't afford to spend too much so h we sent one man in the little van to get this pool table from a working man's club in New in er Nottingham. +Got all the way there, he'd been told that they'd help er him out, cos they're big heavy things, you need at least two to three people to get them out. +Got there, and what you normally do as well, is you have a key to undo the take the balls out and all the various bits to make it lighter. +But this bloke didn't want to lose his pool table. +So when Willy said Well could do you mind givi he he told him to sod off, you see. +He said No no, you c get it you you're come to collect it, you you bloody take it yourself. +So poor Willy was left in a situation where there was nobody to help him out with the f a full pool table for which he couldn't get the key. +The money was in, the balls were in, everything was inside so he couldn't. +He went outside, used his initiative, and found some poor chap who'd give him a hand with it you see . +So they w they came out of this working man's club on top of this hill pulled out the whole thing and all the balls rolled out . +And how many are there in a pool table? +God knows, fifteen or something like that, I don't know, something like that. +And they all rolled down the street +and down the road and they were all rolling down . +And fortunately again you often find that people, because it's a novel situation, it's amazing how the public are c often so helpful. +And all these people into the road +. +risking their lives and coming back with the whole lot that he collected and brought back again. +And we got it back alright. +One of the funny things that did er talking about the kettle though is that er er the number of times on full removals where You know with my re little removals you've only got ten foot front to back, but some of these vans are huge, there's there's there's twenty to thirty foot of van virtually to front. +And one of the psychological advantages of working on light removals is that whenever you're doing it you can see the front of the van you know. +You can pack it up, but you can still see the front so you know how near you're getting to the end of your job. +But when you've moved a five-bedroomed house which has got a grand piano in it as well, and you're about twenty to thirty foot at the back and all you can see is furniture furniture furniture furniture furniture, you can imagine as you go on you're thinking God will we ever get to this? +And er d you n really ne you need you need a bottle of champagne by the side of you when you reach the stage when suddenly you can see the front of the van. +We've had situations like that where you've packed right to the back, and then the lady can't find her keys. +. +They're in her handbag of course. +And her handbag was in a box in the kitchen in the first box that you put in the van. +. +And it's it i Seriously, it has happened a few I in my experience over the years I can remember it happening to me at least half a dozen times. +And so you've got to be like a bloody monkey and you've got to climb up the side of the van and climb along the side of the van without damaging any of the furniture right to the front to find the box to bring it back again. +And of course it th it's more often done that with the kettle of course, so that it's it by the time you get to the end of the job you don't want a cup of tea anyway. +. +So at that stage I shall finish. +and then you could go on all night. +. +. +No certainly you couldn't, I'm sure you couldn't. + +first year of business or your first year of assessment, you made five hundred pounds profit from your business, is that what you've got in mind? +Yeah. +You might have bought capital things, a van, tools etcetera, which might, just for example, cost you five thousand pounds. +Now in the in the first year of business, you'd be allowed capital allowances on that which is m may well er varies i in the proportion, but just say just say it's er ten percent, five hundred pounds, actually will you make that four hundred. +And you get a ten percent capital allowance. +For cars it's actually quarter, twenty five percent on the reducing balance. +So in that first year, at ten percent, you'd be given a capital allowance of five hundred pounds, to be set against a profit of four hundred pounds. +So therefore you'd have no liability but you'd have unused capital allowances to be carried forward to the next year. +Now that wouldn't affect your pension at all. +No. +At that stage. +And, because you'd made a loss, you could, out of your taxed pension, introduce a couple of hundred pounds into the business as a capital in introduction, to keep the business running, and it wouldn't affect the profit figures at all. +Is that right? +Yes . +Well thank you . +Would I actually get a tax refund +You could . +on your loss, if you make a loss . +Or if, if that had been yes,i if you'd actually +if you'd actually made a minus there, ignoring capital allowances, you'd just made a loss of four hundred pounds, then that loss would be for a year of assessment, and in that year of assessment, it could be set against your salary or pensions for that year a as if it was a personal allowance. +So it would be worth running a small slightly unprofitable or non profit making business, to keep your tax bill down . +Well, well yes, because +People do. +People do +For a year or so. +Oh yes, this is what the big business people, why they run far why one of the big business people used to buy farms. +He got the pleasure of farming, and the losses were merely set off against er +This is what used to upset the farmer down the road +who, who was a genuine farmer. +a genuine farmer. +Now then, I've made, oh er before I go into the capital gains , er capital allowances you can claim a proportion of the capital allowances on a reducing balance, so er if a car for example costs you five thousand pounds, you'd actually be allowed twenty five percent in the first year, the twenty five percent would be reduced from five thousand, and in the next year you'd get twenty five percent off your balance until the five thousand pounds had been allowed against your profits. +So it er could pay you in the first year of business to incur any capital that you could afford, because you can either get it against your first year's profits, or by not using the capital allowances, it's available for subsequent years' profit. +Now then onto the capital, capital gains . +Could I just say , if you're thinking about going into small business, for heaven's sake use the small business advice bureau. +Oh yes, every time. +Yes. +They are wonderful. +. I mean you're entitle you've got three interviews free. +Yeah. +And you only start paying after you, after the third one. +Right. +And erm a lot of them are retired business men, or, or people still, people in business who give their time freely to it. +Very good. +Yeah. +And they are, they really work . +Yeah. +One of the other items of expenditure that could be in this er what did I say, five thousand pounds could be the your outgoings of your home, because you've used the spare room as an office. +Or a garage as a workshop or a, a workshop as a workshop. +And you can claim that proportion of your total outgoing. +But if you've used a, a room at home, then you have to watch the capital gains situation, because if it's your residence, then for capital gains purposes when you sell it, it's exempt from income tax. +But if you've used er part of it as a business, then that part isn't your residence. +So when, if, if you were to come to sell your residence, they would knock off that proportion of the total er er which could in fact give rise to a small capital gain depending on how the er how you sold, because you might sell it at a loss. +But if you've made up the gain at all, then since it's residential property, it's exempt. +But that part of it which is used in your business wouldn't be exempt, and could give rise to a gain. +It's bound to be small, if it's a small part of your house. +And in all, in most of those cases it will be covered by the individual exemption of five thousand eight hundred per annum anyway. +There's no real I mean you'd have to be in a real big way of a business and use a large proportion of your house for the gain on that proportion to exceed five thousand eight hundred. +So in most cases, you can ignore it. +But nevertheless, we have to say that it's so. +And furthermore, with the council tax, you could come up against the question of business rating for that . +The other thing is you can claim an allowance for using your room against your tax, that's one +of the things you can do of course. +As I say, a proportion of the, of your total outgoings which er related to that room, can be claimed as a business expense. +Erm, wife's wages for answering the telephone. +The phone of course is, is an allowed expense. +What if you don't use it full time? +I mean are you allowed to claim for +Well it, it's that proportion of business use. +I mean, you're only using it one day a week. +Yes, yes. +If, if you've got er a room, the re the tax inspector will say well, what proportion of the total would you say that room is? +And if it's a quarter, +And you +What? +and if you used it one day a week. +Well, it's a er seventh of a quarter, if you . +And that proportion is then allowed as a business expense. +These people, young people often, who do some childminding, if they take in children, +Right. +is their house being used as a sort of business ? +It could be. +It could be yes. +They could alter their tax status. +Oh yeah, yes. +If, if you're s setting up in business as a childminder, not doing it as a, for a friend, for just nominal expense. +If you're attracting custom as a childminder, you really would be in business. +And could then claim +Pardon? +If you've got more than two, you are anyway. +You are anyway yes. +You, you really are, yes. +You, you've co you've commercially organized yourself, therefore you're in business. +In which case you could claim the proportion of the house on expenses. +Both the house expenses, the, the room and also provision of food and cleaning things for the presum for because of the involvement with children. +You could be providing meals for them, I dare say they do do they, with child ? +Mhm. +Yeah. +In which case, they'd go down as well. +. But it is this facility of er of you determining that an expense is, is generally for the business, therefore it can be claimed, so +If you, if you go over the fifteen thousand turnover, +Right. +how important or desirable is it to use an accountant? +Er not at all, I wouldn't think. +If you're rel if you're reasonably intelligent, no. +Because all, all +an accountant will do, is work on the information you give him. +And he'll put it into a nice neat accountancy type form. +But he can only, he can only do it on your information. +If you're fully aware of all the implications of the tax and what er allowances you can claim, then super. +If you're not absolutely up to date, +Oh yes. +your accountant is. +The accountant will then earn his keep. +That's right. +But in most small businesses it really isn't worth their while having accountants in. +Just keeping good accurate records. +That's right, yeah. +Yeah. +Yeah. +If, if your, if your total turnover was sixteen thousand, then the inspector of taxes would want from you an account which shows how your fifteen thou sixteen thousand has been arrived at, who's paid you this money because he looks at those and he checks their accounts to see they've received it obviously, that's what it is, and wh how is your five thousand pounds made up. +And if y if of the five thousand pounds, for an extreme example, four thousand pounds of car expenses, he'd ask you in and say hello, what sort of car have you got then? +You know. +But if it's a reasonable amount, say five hundred pounds, he would merely look at it and say fair enough. +Not worth challenging. +Unless you . +If you've got four thousand pound car expenses, he might question where you're paying the car expenses to . +Oh indeed yes. +Yeah. +And whether you should be paying tax on it. +That's right. +Oh yes, yeah. +Cos this is where the revenue gets its information about all sorts of tax . +I mean if you're a builder and you receive sixteen thousand, of, of that there's a thousand pounds from Joe Bloggs builder whatnot, then the er the tax inspector will make a note, and pass on a little note to Joe Bloggs' file that, yeah he paid Bill Smith a thousand pounds, and i that then should appear in his accounts, and if it doesn't, then he's a ripe subject for being investigated. +So this is the thing you have to have to bear in mind. +This is happening all the time. +Obviously you'd expect the revenue to do this, wouldn't you? +Er the b the more you do in cash really, the more the tax inspectors look at it. +Oh well, yes. +Because the, you've no means of, of proving have you that I mean y er the best system would never be able to discover that er your figure of fifteen thousand pounds cash taken selling ice cream was genuine. +Except that you do work on proportions. +Ye oh yes. +There is there is, yeah. +Yeah. +I mean if you're doing something like selling ice cream, +Yeah, there is, there is yeah. +they have a lot of people which they say, you should make from . +You should be making within, within that range, within that, +And if you're not, they want to know why you're not. +But it's only if it's materially out. +If y you know if you're content to, to pocket five hundred pounds, they'll never be able to discover it in fifteen thousand. +If you made er if you pocketed ten thousand, of course, it'd stand out a mile. +Because you've not, you're not er in the same relative position as the next . +Anyway, I think I've dealt with that er er have I? +Is that, is that good enough? +Yeah. +But taking your point about er, you know you've got, you've incurred these expenses anyway, therefore at the end of the day, you're not that much better off than er +As I say,well if you do go into business on your own, be extremely careful if you are thinking of +I wonder if I could go back to that point that er a couple of you raised this morning, about the transfer assets into the wife's name. +You raised it, didn't you, Bob? +Yes. +And I, I must admit, it left me somewhat confused. +And can I b make it quite clear, that if you transfer assets into your wife's name, it has to be a pucker transfer into her name. +You can't retain control of it at all. +And therefore it has to be a separate account. +But what John was saying this morning, and I think it wasn't with respect it didn't come over clearly to me, as clearly to me as I would have liked, and I was determined to point was, what John was saying, the transfer of that, if that's capital, the transfer of that capital should be made into the wife's account. +The income from it is then the wife's, therefore, if it happens to be three four four five, it is completely free of tax, whereas left with the husband would be taxed. +But then what he then went on to say was, that since only the wife would be able to spend from that account, then put the money after it had been dealt with for the wife's tax purposes, into a joint account, on which both could draw. +Knowing full well that a half would be the husband's, which would be taxable, the other half would also be the wife's, and would therefore be taxable if she'd already absorbed her three four four five. +You don't need the separate account, you just +You don't need a separate +to sign that's all. +Yeah. +Mm. +If she gives you authority to sign on . +It was this separate account that confused me. +Er it did me. +Yeah. +I mean I +Yeah. +it got me,, I, I didn't say any more, but er +I, I'm sure it was because he realized that if it was a sole account, you wouldn't normally be able t a husband and wife wouldn't be able to draw on it freely, but as you say, you could. +Yeah,authority to sign. +She just gives you authority to sign. +It has to be a genuine transfer of an asset. +It has to be in her name. +Yeah. +Erm mm. +Okay, I, I, I'm glad, I, I'm glad I was confused on that point, because if I hadn't been, I might not have have er +I think he was worried about his ability to get his motorbike out. +To get his motorbike out of his wife's +Yes, it was used in connection with that wasn't it? +Er Well, I'm going to leave it that we're very very early, I hope +I hope you don't mind. +I don't think you do, but er I really we've, we've + +Right James, let's have a look at this finger. +Thumb. +Thumb. +Well it is a finger of sorts. +What have you managed to do to it? +Oh dear, oh dear , +I don't now what he's done to it. +oh dear. +It were a bit swollen yesterday and he's been in bed day, when he's got up this morning that's how +Now that is not very nice is it James? +I don't know why doing it. +Is that very painful in there? +Yeah. +Okay,Sit yourself down. +Sit down. +If you look at the finger, if you draw a little picture from the side,nail coming out there okay. +and in here you've got some bones okay? +Yeah. +So this joint here is this joint here, and there's the nail. +Now what you've got is a really cute infection. +It started around the edge of the nail I should think, and that's where they usually go. +But this has spread quite rapidly, it can't really go beyond here, cos the skin is quite tight. +It's quite tightly bound round there, so it stays in this area here. +And instead of just being here round the top, this has actually gone round here too, by the looks of it. +And it's probably actually got an abscess in there, which is why it's so swollen on the top, sides and at the bottom. +Now the danger of leaving these is you can get g i is the infection can spread into the bone soon. +And if it does that you're in real trouble. +So what you need to have done with this is to have all the puss got out. +Yeah. +Okay, and it needs to be opened up in someway, which sounds a bit drastic but isn't actually that bad. +And sometimes as well as going this way we actually need to go in this way too, to actually get it out. +If it was simply round the nail we could do it here, but it's not. +I mean it actually looks like an abscess in there, so this really needs to be done in the hospital I'm afraid. +It's not an enormous +But +thing. +on Sunday it it looked alright , +Yeah. +there were nothing wrong with it . +They spread very quickly. +But they don't spread tha out of this way, but they can spread in this bit quite quickly, cos there's nothing to stop it going around there, at all. +Urgh. +It won't go further back in a hurry, but it it's These are very very nasty. +Have you had anything stuck in it, James? +You haven't had a splinter? +I don't think he has, +Or anyone knocked or banged it? +football, kicked at it. +S +Footballs. +They kicked at it . +Right, this is his right thumb, is he right handed? +Yeah. +Will he have to go on the +Yes he will, he'll have to go on the plug yeah he c You're not fit for work for a little while. +Now,, what we really need to do is to get the orthopaedic people to have a look at this. +In fact they may recommend they have people see him. +And if they recommend that, that may mean a little bit of trip, down to either Nottingham or perhaps even Derby , +but if we start off at Kings Mill and they'll decide what h The best way of treating this. +Okay? +So we'll get them on the ph blower. +little letter. +Now he's otherwise fit and well isn't he? +We don't see him very often. +No. +He weren't very well yesterday at all, he were in bed all day. +Yeah,where are we now? +Twenty fourth is it? +Twenty four. +And it's isn't it? +Yeah. +Is he allergic to anything you know of? +No. +And he's not on any pills and tablets at the moment, is he? +Ooh yes, that's a nice cold isn't it? +A strange bloke. +If you find you go and they see you and you get very little joy, can you get back to us? +Yeah. +Well he might just have got out of bed, that may not help. +But if you do have problems do get back and mm. +Is my nail going to my nail going to come off, mum? +Yeah, I'm afraid it may well fall off James, yes. +It may well fall off, but if it does fall off and everything gets back to normal it'll grow back again. +I black nail +Now what they'll do is they'll have a look and then decide what to do. +There's a there's a chance that they will actually refer you on. +Er they may feel this isn't They can sort it out themselves, so we'll see. +Depends I If er one of the hand specialists is in they'll probably get you done there and then, if they're quick. +And where do I go then, just Kings Mill casualty +Kings Mill casualty, and the +Where's that? +orthopaedic people will see you there. +J Have you been to Kings Mill since they rebuilt it? +No I haven't been since the c they moved the casualty there. +Right you go straight up +Yeah. +the drive. +And the block is on the right hand side, and you just keep going straight on. +Okay, don't turn right, don't turn left,go straight on. +And the car parks are to the right and the main entrance is on the left and you just keep going straight on straight on straight on straight on and the bottom left hand corner is casualty. +Now you can't actually park by casualty's door, you're going to have to park a little bit before that. +But +Aha. +if someone's giving you a lift, what you could do is get them to drive straight down, drop you off, and then they can go and park. +Okay. +And it's You go straight up and it's in that bottom left hand corner. +Right. +Okay You can't really miss it, it's where all the ambulances are. +So you're going to see the orthopaedic people there care of casualty, B B C one. +I mean +Kings Mill hospital, ho ho ho, little joke. +Right now we better start you off how we mean to go on James, with er a sp a special sticker. +We don't give you one of those cos they're boring,much more interesting one. +Shall we give you a lion for being brave? +Would you like a lion for being brave? +Yeah. +Would you like a lion. +It says I've been good at the doctor today. +We'll start you off with one of these, okay. +That can't be a bad start. +One lion s One lion sticker, there you go. +Okay? +And they're going to have a good look and you may need to do all sorts of interesting things, okay. +As i said, if you have problems and they don't you don't think they're going to do an awful lot, get back to me cos I I'm sure that's going to need some sort of intervention. +Right. +There's certainly no point in just waving antibiotics at it cos that won't make it better. +So I can take him now then should +Yeah take him straight d + +and Melford my father's er mother's people were the . +Melford was where he was in Canada when I was born. +And that is over ninety ninety years odd. +You see? +Mm. +So what years was that you were born? +Eighteen ninety three. +Aye. +And do you have any brothers and sisters? +I have one sister still alive. +I had er two brothers and four sisters. +But they er my two brothers, one died in nineteen forty. +The result of well wounds. +The other died at the age of What? +Oh about ten years ago. +Eight He was eighty nine when he died, and er both of them were in the family tradition, journalists. +And in fact er one My brother next to n to me I was the middle of them I was the youngest boy. +male they call it. +His son is a Was former corresponder for in New York for the Guardian. +Now he's on the editorial and Billy, my eldest brother he er was he came up in Glasgow er getting the Scottish Express. +You see so a branch of the er London paper and at that time he was editor of the paper, they came up together, found it here. +But one was on the Daily Mail and the other was on the er Express. +And er at one time they were on the evening papers, opposite. +They were they never worked on the same paper, they were always on +Rival ones. +Yes. +Ooh. +And my sisters three of them were teachers. +And er an interesting thing had been coming to our house She comes goes to the same church. +And she came up on a Wednesday for coffee, after the service. +And she'd been coming to our house, Oh about fie or six years, and she said one day to Mary, that's my wife, says you know, Not strange name, there's not many of them about. +So I says No, when we had the phone first we were the only one in the telephone directory. +And I says er you know when I came back from Rio de Janeiro, she'd been out as a kiddy then. +my teacher was a miss . +And Mary said Yes, that would be Eric's sister. +She was she taught in Pennycook for quite a while, then she went down to Birmingham. +The other sister was er in High Wycombe,and the other one was in er Well she was in Creith for a number of years,And then she moved south because she wasn't musical and there was no chance of getting of headmistresship in Scotland if you hadn't got music. +So she went down to Spalding and was headmistress of er School in Spalding. +Until she Well not until she till she until she retired. +She died a couple of years a er three years ago. +So er and ten the other one, the one that's alive sh she started off teaching and then went to nurse. +She wanted to be a nurse all her life, you see? +Mm. +She's a nurse. +She's retired now, because she's eighty seven. +Stays in South er no not south . +And of course my father, he was in he had a local paper. +Was he editor of the local paper? +Well he was editor, you know, in a a small time a small of er about five or six thousand. +Everybody has More or less has a paper It's not like the Scotsman or the News, as regards numbers, but then you've got all the local news and you got all the local advertisements. +So journalism is one of the family, what if I say traditions? +Mm. +And where er abouts were you brought up? +Girran. +In Girran. +And was it a big house or? +Well it was a reasonable house, you know. +One two three three little rooms downstairs. +Upstairs there be there was four rooms upstairs. +But at that time it wasn't what you'd call modern in so far as you hadn't got hot water from a sort of gas fir Electric heating. +The bath, you had a bath room with a bath on the wall but you had to heat the water on a at the kitchen the kitchen fire. +It were a old fashioned kitchen range where you'd got a an oven on one side and a boiler on the other. +The boiler didn't fill automatic, you had you had to fill it with water. +You took took a bucket of water out, you put a bucket of water in. +That's how you heated that's how you got your bath. +Heating the water, well it heated if you'd the fire on it heated the water and then you'd take a couple of buckets out into the bath, plug a couple of buckets in. +And then er +And there was no no such thing as electricity. +Gas there was a local gas works you see? +That made er the gas locally. +But I remember quite well when the first incandescent gas mantles came in. +You know, what a novelty it was, and the difference in the light between the old single gas lighter and the incandescent lighter. +But er some of ther some you had no gas up the On the stair way. +The gas The stairs were lightened with a a paraffin lamp. +You know +gas in the bedrooms, so as the +The was gas in the bedrooms, but not on +But not on the st +not on the stairway. +Why? +I don't know. +Mhm. +There was warm gas er in the hall. +You know a gas er light in the hall but the less The stairway, you either had to go up by er with a candle in your hand, you see? +Or you got well er One two three four, there were four flights of stairs, in the one house. +You got a couple of lamps either, well in the one case where there was a small landing, a hanging lamp and the other bigger, you had a table, you had a an ordinary table lamp. +Oh yes. +And you'd +And you'd have the fires, open fires in your rooms. +Oh they were all coal fires. +There w there were no such thing as gas fires. +They were open coal fires. +And one Well all the bedrooms had er fire places, you see? +So that in the winter time you put on a a coal fire. +But there were no no such things as central heating and that. +And er where did you start school? +Girran. +Girran. +And what was it like? +Was it a +It was +small school? +No it was Girran High School was very good. +Very good school, very good teachers. +The headmaster was Morgan J , known as Morgan J or by the boys as Too Long and Too Loose. +Why? +Because he always had long trousers that went over his boots, and they were you know, very wide so the boys would call him too long and too loose. +yes. +Ooh there were all all there were With one exception they were all male teachers. +The on the exception was the art mistress, she was a er Miss , but er Morgan ,,,,, all good and by you couldn't you know they were disciplinarians, strong disciplinarians, there was another chap. +left Girran, went from Girran down to Oxford as professor of Latin. +And he stayed there for the rest of his life. +And Morgan J well he was the headmaster when I went to school first and he was there when I left and he retired and he was still here You know going about. +There was ,, and another chap. +There were four headmasters and they From Not from Girran because there was only the one high school, but from er Prestwick,Glenbuck and that, and the used to meet on a Saturday at Turnbelly to play golf. +They played golf every Saturday if it was at all possible. +And was the belt used a lot? +Pardon? +Was the belt used a lot? +No. +Because you didn't get the You know +One one boy might have had the belt, say once in the week or a month, at Girran. +Very seldom, there was no need. +You know, you might get the belt for making a silly mistake over a sum, or some exercise or that, you see? +Or coming in coming late. +But it very The belt was there, now in the classroom the master had a desk and at the side of the desk was the belt. +It was always on show, but it was seldom used. +You know er very very seldom. +And how did you learn to count, can you remember? +Did you use the abacus? +How did you learn to count ? +To count , aha. +When you went? +You started, I forget one, you know they'd put them on the bo It was all board and slates, there were no books, you know, no papers. +you had a a slate like you've got on the roof, but it it was bound with a wooden frame. +And on the board was a one. +And you out that one on your slate. +And then two, and you put the two. +Then add, you'd put a plus sign, one and equal, two and two plus two equalled four. +Like that. +And the same when it came to er subtracting, you see, it were all done on the board and you copied it onto your plate On to your slate. +And from that you learned. +And you had a bit of rage or duster or something, you'd got your slate filled, you'd just wiped it up, and dried it, start again. +So that, literally speaking, there were no records of your early +er training in addition, subtraction and that. +When you went into the er higher grade, then you got jotters, because you had homework, so you'd homework to do and you'd, therefore, books. +So that you could er give your translation you see? +Or all that. +You had your Latin, French, if you didn't if you didn't take French you took German. +Your maths and your science. +And your own jotters. +And your homework was handed in every er so often, you know, you may have homework, English. +And essay, write an essay on this, that or the next thing, at the weekend. +It went into your jotter, your jotter was handed in on the Monday morning, or the first time you went to the eng the English class and the teacher was his name, he went over that and if you'd missed out a comma, you see or a full stop or anything like that. +He corrected them, more or less, marked in up, and you got er four out of ten, five out of ten, ten out of ten. +And did you stay at the same school through primary and secondary? +Yes. +one school. +The on the only difference in, were different sizes of the room. +You see the primary was in the one side and the high school the secondary was in the other. +And were Did the classrooms, how were the classrooms heated then? +They were in desks, you had a long desk that took Now some of them they took five on the one the one desk, you see? +A long desk and a long seat. +No individual desks. +And the boys say on the one side and the girls on the other. +Mm. +And how were the classrooms heated? +Can you remember? +Well the classrooms were kept clean because the school finished at er twenty past four and half past four the janitor had the cleaners, you see? +Mrs A had somebody Mrs B Mrs C Mrs D. +they were always they were swept every day and at the weekends. +One room would be the floors would all be scrubbed and polished, next week the next room. +The next room, then come back. +Every so often the rooms were scrubbed. +When you sat your qualifying exam to go to the high school, er what happened to the people who didn't pass? +They were It were divided into to, you could go to a high, or you could carry on at what they call supplementary. +If you didn't get the if you didn't pass the class exam you could stay on and try again. +that never happened. +If you didn't get it you went in to the supplementary. +If you got it you could go in to the higher, if you didn't want to go into the higher you leave at er thirteen, you went into the supplementary. +It was er just er Well it was between, shall we say, the higher grade and the secondary school. +Continuation of further education on the secondary lines. +The only thing in the supplementary you didn't get was languages, but you got the the math, the science and all that, and English. +So did you enjoy school? +Yes. +It was good. +And did you have sport? +You had you had no organized sport such as you have today, but you had a football team because there was no need for what you would call sports ground, there was plenty of available open space, park. +there was the Stead Park, which practically covered the whole of our the er town you see? +You If you lived in Stead Park, the houses in Stead Park looked straight across the green onto the sea. +So that you've got football pitches there, with cricket pitches but if you wanted, if you were a golfer you went across to the golf course. +But there wasn't what you'd call an organized sports group. +If you wanted to play, class four would play class three, class three play class two, you know? +But the teachers didn't organize it? +No no. +You The boys organized it themsel +The boys organized it themselves. +And as for girls, well er about the only thing they did was skip. +You know, skipping ropes. +And what did you do with your er spare time as a school boy? +I Spare time as a school boy, I used to play either football in the winter or cricket in the summer. +When I had spare time, but if you'd If it was decent weather you'd have to give a hand in the garden at home you see? +You had to help get the garden Keep the garden tidy, keep the weeds down. +It's alright at Although I'd two brothers, on or two would be away from home from home at the s the same time. +I was left. +So I had to give me father a hand, you know, to keep the garden, and he had plenty to do. +So er they'd find you something to do in the garden in your time. +Did you find that your father would have odd hours? +Well er sometimes he he made of point of always being in the house not later than We'll say nine o'clock, unless there was something special on. +You know a meeting of the town council. +Well if there was a meeting of the town council it would perhaps start at eight o'clock. +Because quite a l a number of members of the council had businesses and you didn't shut at six o'clock, it was seven or eight 'clock before they closed. +And if there was a town council meeting it might go on till ten o'clock. +So if the e You know it was only er exceptional cases when he was late. +Did the paper er he had out every day? +No it was a weekly paper. +A weekly paper you see? +And er later on when he Well he got that he couldn't carry on with it, you see. +It was absorbed and went in to the Carrick Herald and the Aire Advertiser, and now they've all gone. +I don't think there's a sort of local paper now. +Course I haven't been down that way for a while. +And when you left school what er age were you? +I was between fifteen and sixteen. +And what did you go What did you do? +I had a relation with a chemist business in Motherwell. +And er i didn't know him, you know, my Mother He was a cousin of my Mother's you see, and on call now and again. +It wasn't like today, you could get in the car and nip down. +To get to Girran you've got to go into Glasgow and get a train from Glasgow down to Girran you see? +And that was er an express train was two hours journey. +So And er I smelt, you know, and I went by a chemical and I thought Oh oh, grapes, the the odour you see? +And that drew me. +The aroma that exuded from the chemist shop in those days like er Depends what they'd been using you see? +They'd been making er some mixed powder, fenugreek or something like that you see? +You get the aroma of it. +And er well there were three chemists in Girran W K , Archie and Gib . +Well W K never took an apprentice, he wouldn't you know, he hadn't time, he had a permanent assis assistants like. +He wouldn't he wouldn't take in ion an apprentice, it was too much. +So I got in to Gib n as an apprentice on the second of August, nineteen twelve I think. +Nineteen and eleven or twelve and er he was a figure in the b in the town, when I tell you, you won't remember the who were members of parliament for Orkney and Shetland. +And if Punch were ever stuck he would get a cartoon of er one or other of the brothers sitting in parliament knitting. +You know whistling and knitting. +Well this man something wrong and he er had an appointment with a Girran man who was Professor of medicine in Glasgow, he'd gone up the ladder you know and finished. +And he made an appointment. +Well came from Bar which is er a matter of six miles, six to eight miles out side Girran and you'd got to come in by foot or by trap. +In those days he came in with a His coachman brought him in the trap and they got the twenty minutes past seven express train to Glasgow. +Well er he saw the Professor and paid the fee and that and then came back six =clock at night, he came into the shop. +And he said he says Is er Gib in? +Well the assistant said no er Ah he's upstairs getting his tea. +Stayed above the shop, you see? +In the house. +But he said wait a minute I hear him coming down the stairs. +So the boss came down the stairs and into the shop and he saw Oh hello, well did you get on with the Your examination? +Ah well he says,and he said he's given me this list. +If you can't get If you give me something of your own. +After he travelled to Glasgow, he had more faith in the He'd more, you know, +Mhm. +if had said Oh this isn't worth a damn, take this, he would have taken it and been happy. +Mhm. +And Oh No he said, this'll be good, you know. +So can you remember your f your wage when you went first? +When I started first it was five pounds a year. +And were you paid at six months or were paid every +No paid every three months. +And invariably you got a gold sovereign, you see? +And er what,four the rest I think it was one pound five a Twenty five shillings every three months and you got a sovereign and often a five shilling piece. +If you didn't get the five shilling piece you got two half crowns. +Then it gradually went from five pounds to ten. +There was a five pound increase every year you see? +And what er was your job when you first started? +When you first started you had the hallmark of an apprentice of black apron with a bib on it. +You know er you see some of them with the apron that just goes round the waist. +But this one came up over neck, over your neck, and then down here and strings there. +And you did two years as an apprentice then another would come in and you dropped the bib and got a black apron. +When your apprenticeship was finished, you got a white apron. +How long was the apprenticeship. +The apprentice varied three years up to, some of them were five. +And what did you do as an apprentice a at first? +I The first thing you were shown, taught to do, was to wash the bottles. +You know, empty medicine bottles. +You washed them. +The er apparatus,measures, slabs, mortars, that were used for making compounds or dispensing medicines. +They were put on the sink and you washed them. +And dried them and put them on the rack again. +And gradually dust or you've seen these er chemist shops where you've got lots of er drawers in. +Well in my day, all those drawers had the natural drug. +Aconite root,inside was a small cardboard label, you see? +Giving the whole story Rad aconite,beruncial assay Britain, habitat Britain. +use, root, liniment, you see? +And you had to do all that dusting and keep it and you'd read over all these things, every time you dusted until you got to know them. +That was +one of the ways of training you or breaking you in to what was materia m the materia medica of the pharmacy. +If he today er you don't hear such thing as aconite liniment, belladonna liniment. +Extract of bella belladonna. +Dandelion juice,Succus delaxica they've been replaced. +Then, you see, at certain periods of the years herbs were common, bloom, which a lot of it was used. +You used to go with the boss. +The boss would cut the bloom, you would put it into the sack, bring it back to the shop and dry it. +You might go and collect, oh er what Coliupe Collium, Collium Maculatum,spotted come up, you'd go and cut it, you know, bring it in, get the Succus Conium that would keep you going, you know, sometimes he would he'd say Oh blast you, we used two garlands of it. +We better get three garlands this year in case. +Ooh we made three garlands last year, we've got two garlands left, we'll not bother. +But a lot of the herbs were collected and dried and er used. +So it was organized collecting of +Well the usually collected himself. +Er we was on the beach, you know sea front, he'd er gathered some er brands of seaweed for making what they call Irish moss,Caragium And that would give you a good think emulsion, you see then in the, what was the cod season, cod fishing, you'd go down to the harbour where the er fishing boat came in and where they were cleaning, and you'd get the boss would have arranged that you get the cod's livers. +Take it back to the shop, in You've seen these old milk churns. +Well I fill the milk churns with the livers and take them up to the shop. +Go back and get another, you see? +Get another. +Make your own, produce your own cod liver oil. +Gosh. +And er there were two grades of it. +There was the the cod liver what would for animals, that well, the method that used to be used, put it into the copper boiler. +A big copper boiler, with a little warm water and the heat would separate the oil, you see? +And then skim the oil off and drain it. +What extra did you have to do for humans? +Well you were always One thing you were very careful, you had to see that the gall bladder was removed. +that it was just the liver. +And sometimes you just used pressure, you see? +Put it in and screw it round and round and round, so that the pressure would fetch out the oil. +I can remember when the er Going down to the harbour for salt and we were getting from the manufacturer, it was at the time, getting cod liver oil, you know, ready prepared for us which was a quite a saving. +As far as we were concerned. +In labour. +But er you had all like cold cream, special hairs tonics, rosemary , Eucalyptus hair tonics. +You made those in the back shop. +And having made a couple of Winchesters, that's er the big bottle, which was er eighty ounces. +They were filled into two ounce, four ounce or, you know, depending on the size you you stocked and sold. +Are they The chemist then would have to buy in all the bottles. +Oh he bought in the bottles, you see? +And er y you gave in perhaps say er two gross of three ounce bottles, two gross of two ounce bottles, four gross of four ounce, depends how they were used. +And they were stored in the back in the back shop store, you see? +And er kept there, then you had in the front shop, you had a range of er hair er drawers with your drugs, your drugs at the bottom. +you pulled it down ad you got the various size bottles in this we got half and one ounce, here two ounce, further up three ounce. +All the way round. +When you got the bottles did they have to be cleaned? +Yes. +Cleaned and dried. +So it was a lot of work? +Oh lot of work. +I mean the bottles weren't what you'd call dirty, from having contained medicine or anything like that. +They were dirty from transit you see? +And packing. +So that they just needed more or less scrubbing out and put on Put into drainers, you know just a big piece of wood with holes cut in so that you could fit them in and wouldn't fall off, and dry them over the heat. +What did you use to heat? +There's only source of heat. +any of these. +The great thing is if you've got faith in the stuff if you haven't got faith, you needn't bother with it. +That's my opinion. +And what do you feel about er the new er +there are some of them that are very useful but in the majority of cases if the human is functioning well it's producing it's own steroids. +And those people that take or get extra, either their body is not producing or they want an extra bit for something so they can run a hundred yards at er in an extra five minutes. +But you don't feel that these things are not really proven are they? +No. +They have quite disastrous side effects on the +Er they have well just the same as er some of these weight reducers. they'll take the weight down but look at the side effects. +Oh yes it's er no I think there If we just bothered there are enough or almost enough herbs to cure any Most of the common troubles. +And do you feel nationalization was good from the medical point of view or? +Well yes and no. +People stared running to their doctor cut finger,where previous they would have said, oh I'll have a an aspirin and a cup of tea. +I'll put a bit of s adhesive plaster around this. +I think at times the national health service has been exploited, you know, oh er I am no going out today, I'm no feeling well. +I'll go and get the Go and see the doctor. +A sick thing, he's off for a week. +If we had some method a l a laser of some kind that could measure the degree of pain that Mrs A is supposed to be suffering, it would it'd solve a lot of problems. +Mm. +remember what it was like during the nineteen twenty six strike ? +The nineteen twenty six strike, the o the thing that struck me most of all was, they were going to out the railway men. +And at that time the railway was It was private. +And the leading man of the railway union went out and bought all the shares he could get his hands on and off the railway company. +And he'll not come out on strike. +And that's And er it was the railway men not coming out on strike that caused the collapse of the strike. +But there wasn't much interference in in Edinburgh. +As far as I can remember. +I mean we could get about, we got about alright. +There's +There was food and all that available. +Oh no I the twenty six strike er is just a You know a very very big and er you know er railway man, leader of the strike, buying all the shares because he was But that's one of the things, because it was a headline in the +Paper. +Papers. +I see, so coming back to er making the pills and silver on it and gold, was this er sort of foe the aristocracy more? +No no. +No. +No. +No. +Anybody you know, er it sometimes does work, very keen on a nice appearance you see, that the drug be have a nice appearance and so the had silver coated. +No no it wasn't I seen I seen people in the pleasance being silver coated pills. +And you wouldn't say that was No. +How do you feel, the sort of looking back on life, sort of the difference now u when you were young? +Well, how do I feel? +I'm grateful that I was born when I was, rather than being a youngster today. +Although I have Well I've come through two wars and I remember the relief of Mathaking but I'd sooner that I've was born when I was. +Why? +Well today it I may be wrong, I hope I am, but it seems to me, everybody is out, you know, oh he gets five bob I want seven and six, he get's seven and six, I want ten. +And there seems to be dissatisfaction, greed, I dunno what amongst the youngsters today. +And what did you do as er your leisure time as a a young man and? +Well, you hadn't got a great deal of money, now you would go for a walk out in Edinburgh, out to black Blackhole because Blackhole was a village. +Or you'd go down the er out to Barton and down the side of Armand up and back again. +Y you had a a walk Saturday morning, when Saturday morning. +I went for a game of golf, I had nine holes. +I was a member of Ra er Ravelston Why? +It was very easy, I could walk up to Ravelston nine holes, walk back in time. +Or I got a garden, I could occupy myself in the garden. +I never felt time hanging. +Ooh well you got er a l a lecture a couple of lectures every day, well you You couldn't just er press a button and they came out, you got er preparation work. +enjoyed lecturing? +Yes. +And +I made many of my own students are still friends. +Now we're a bit off Christmas, we've We have had Christmas cards from Norway, Indonesia, Mauritius, Northern Island not to mention the er Scotland and England. +But these are from students of well past days. +So it's very nice. +So well er I had students and they left at as friends. +If if we had overseas students, you know er somebody from Zambia or What er people Afro Asians or in Indonesians or something like. +Well they were they were coloured, well it didn't matter to me. +My wife kept an open door for them and any time Well at the weekend they'd Some of them would drop in, you know, for a chat, aye. +Or drop in for tea or supper. +I was much more, well I'll not say interested altogether, but much more thoughtful of the condition of er these coloured people. +Why? +Well a biddy ago now, a Nigerian came to Edinburgh, a student, went to the regular places. +No no to let, advertising accomo They wouldn't have him, well what's that? +What impression is that going to have on that laddie? +So but er the overseas fellow, You know I'll consider just on the same level, and ofte Well I never saw any er what you'd call bickering and biding between the black and the white student. +And the u a couple of them would come, a black and a white would be here and no bother at all. +But there you are. +Did you find that through the years the classes got bigger? +That that you lectured to? +Well the classes remained steady. +You know we could've We limited They were limited to the intake, but we could have er increased I think. +We kept a steady increase, you see when the two year course stared first, I think we had eight students, and then it grew, you see. +The next year the eight to the final year, there's sixteen the next year until we were getting that the two year course was just as big as the old one year course. +And you got er eighty four students first year, eighty four students second tear, that's a hundred and sixty eight students. +Oh but we got on. +Oh yes. +And did you find that the text book they had to use, changed through the years or just the +Well +of the same text +no +books. +they're they are pretty much the same. +The chemistry text books ch And the physics changed, they got a bit more what you would call mathematic mathematical. +But you can't math mathematize the making of an ointment or the making of an infusion. +They're perhaps little er more about the condition of the granules of a powder used for compressing into tablets, and the coating, how shall we coat it so that it washed away at once, dissolved slowly or anything like that. +Yes, that was a big change really wasn't it ? +Yes. +Coating. +Coating. +Yes. +So that you could get the slow and of course coating the granules before compression. +Mm. +So that er you get a slow or a retarded er effect or solution rather absorption. +Oh yes. + +I know but erm if I don't see I'm gonna crack. +Ah. +Right. +organize you for doing that scan. +Mhm. +See what's going on. +That's the results about ten minutes ago, an hour ago. +Yeah. +And that's clear as well. +So +There's obviously something not right, Doctor . +Aye there's something wrong. +working right. +Where will I go for the scan? +Er I don't know. +I need to phone down, see if they've got a time for you today. +Mhm.. +You still ? +Aye.. +Do your loft up. +We can, it's alright up there. +I've got an auntie that lives up there. +and she hates it. +She wants to go back to . +I don't to be quite honest I don't think there's anything left of . +She doesn't like it in that new place . +No no. +And she's getting the nurses up. +Is she giving them a hard time? +Giving them a hard time down there. +Is she? +Aha. +Who's that? +My Aunty Peggy . +My dad's sister. +I was in there once but +She just went after he daughter. +Her daughter died of cancer and then a year later her +Oh right. +husband died of cancer and she just . +Now even if I'm only weeks pregnant this'll show? +Aye? +If you're weeks pregnant, that would have shown. +It would have shown? +Aye. +Oh aye. +So I'm definitely not pregnant? +Definitely not pregnant. +My body's just dying. +. +You mean I'm not heading for the end of me. +four weeks, would have shown up on that. +Was it May you changed my pill wasn't it? +Mhm. +Aye I mean it +might be that there could be something as simple as that that's +Mhm. +doing it. +Could be something as simple as that. +sixty two. +Right. +Now it was Marvelon and I put you on to +No it wasn't Marvelon it was that Trin +Trin +Aye. +Trinordiol. +Mhm. +Trinordiol. +And now it's Norimin. +So it could It might just be that that's causing the problem. +But we'll get you checked out. +Now see if we get whether I can get us fitted in. +Mm right. +Might manage it today. +Mm. +Margaret, they couldn't give me on just now. +Mhm. +Can we phone you this afternoon +Aye. +as long as we've got your phone number. +Mhm. +Should I take that with me? +brought this back. +You hold on to that. +Right. +Right. +Er and we've got your new phone number. +Aye. +Got that. +And we'll give you a phone as soon as they get back to us. +And if they can do it this afternoon or tomorrow morning, +Aye. +we'll let you know right away. +It shouldn't be too long? +It should Oh no it shouldn't be Hopefully within +. +I know. +Yeah. +Right thanks. +Right cheerio now. + +Do have a seat, +I'm trying to do eight things at once as usual. +Only eight ? +Now Sorry? +Only eight? +Only eight things at once? +Oh it feels like yeah, extensions going on there, builders there,Now your insurance company have written back saying can we have a report because your investigations have been completed. +That's all very well but the hospital haven't written to me yet, so +I've not got my appointment through until the fifth of October. +Oh well they are complete then, oh that's okay then. +But the insurance company +About this little thing at the back of the eye? +Yeah. +Oh well I'll keep the insurance company er I w er we will send them a little note in that case, saying look, you know, this is the case, it appears to be an innocent lesion she's just been finely checked over on the eighth of October, do you feel you can now proceed? +I mean they they they've given +me insurance but it's +Oh right, so you are covered ? +Sort of, they're going to review it. +Oh right. +When they've got the results from the hospital. +Okay, so that'll be what? +Six weeks off or so? +Yeah, okay. +Yeah, I mean that's that's not a problem any more. +Well I'll I'll erm Well if you've got the insurance the be the best thing to do is for me to tell them when you've actually been done. +A letter to insurance company. +Yeah. +Fifth +of October, the +Hospital review over , okay. +So we'll do that. +Now. +What else can I do for you? +I just need a repeat prescription for Dianette please . +Dianette. +Yeah. +Are you okay? +Yeah fine. +Periods, water works, bowels, wastes? +Yeah, everything fine . +No ? +No. +You've had a smear in nineteen ninety one. +Paperwork, there's the paperwork. +Get that up to date. +Er possibly not Oh I might be. +Yes it's okay till December so we don't need to +Oh right. +do anything with that,. +It'll have to be back dated after Christmas. +No problems. +Right, blood pressures what i need to check please. +Going away next week. +You are? +Where you going? +Oh south Wales. +Mm, +The trouble is there's a hundred and one things to do before we go. +teach you to go on holiday. +This'll squeeze a little bit. +It's fine. +Absolutely +perfect. +Thank you. +Yeah. +So we'll keep you on Dianette Do you smoke? +No. +Couldn't remember. +I used to. +Don't any more. +Good, that's okay. +Twenty four, eighth, ninety three. +Okay , +Right. +six packets of Dianette +Wonderful, thank you very much. +Okay and I'll talk to your insurance company as soon as this letter comes through,hopefully +Right. +this won't be far off now. +Six weeks. +well. +Yes max s six seven +about seven weeks Okay. +When you go +i should actually ask them if they could write promptly because of this pending. +Yes I will. +Otherwise, you know, hospital letters can lag several weeks behind. +Right. +But if you actually deliberately ask them to write promptly. +And the eye department +are quite good actually, it must be said. +Right. +Bye bye. +Good. +Thanks very much. +That's okay. +B + +There's nothing wrong with those. +They're perfect. +Absolutely perfect, now +Why is she +erm +getting her +Well she thinks you're on a high dose, you're not, you're on an okay dose. +Now we've had you w That's right. +We're we're waiting inn here we we're still on three months so we're alright. +So mid October, so we've actually +Mm. +got a a a while to go yet before we decide what we're going to do with that. +But your levels are perfect, okay, it's got nothing to do with lithium. +No I I think it's just a really bad case of M E again . +Yeah , yeah. +Well she she told me that your M E type symptoms had got a lot worse and I said that's we had at That's what I chatted with her about the other day but +I've I've been really housebound for five +Mm. +weeks now, +Yeah. +and it's driving me mad. +I I'm +Yeah. +you know I feel just +Mm. +dreadful. +Yeah. +But it but it is typical M E symptom . +Well that's right, a sort of low achy, tired, tired +Yeah. +and more tired. +That's right and I'm very depressed. +Yeah. +Are keepi You are I mean obviously you are keeping yourself going cos you're obviously getting out to come here and do bits and bobs but +Well this is the first time I've been +Yeah. +able to come here on my own. +Yeah. +Erm and that's not like me, I usually +manage to you know . +Now you're usually okay, aren't you ? +Yeah but er it really has knocked me for six this time. +Mhm. +Erm I think it's probably that infection that I had er +Yes. +It may well be . +That thrush or whatever it was . +Yeah. +Yeah. +Er it takes very little, well you know yourself +Mm. +don't you? +Yeah. +I mean I found it in the past, you know any infection what so ever just knocks you for six. +And and I'm just, you know, I I think that's probably why Jo was +Mm. +c I think I she'd seen me at my worst on Friday +Yeah. +And and +Yeah. +I think it worried her a bit. +Yeah. +Yeah. +But er your Lithium levels are absolutely fine. +They're almost exactly the same as you were four weeks ago. +I thought they were actually cos I I even at that part of +Yeah. +it it felt +Yeah. +erm +Yeah. +Yeah. +normal . +Yeah. +Good +I mean the headaches are I'm reluctant to say better +Yeah, but not so +But +bad. +but they're certainly no not so severe. +Yeah. +Do you find they respond better if you take Dihydrocodeine when they're there as well? +Yes. +Yeah. +Yeah +exactly what I's expect and you may find they actually sort of are on a down-slope still. +And maybe it's a very shallow down-slope but still on a down-slope. +Mm. +And that's what I'd +I do actually feel better. +I I eat I don't usually take my first lot of tablets till sort of around dinner time. +And I find sort of about an hour or so afterwards I do +actually start to feel +Anyhow we're g we're gonna summarize +your Lithium in October of course, that's +Mhm. +And that's fine. +What I +would Apart As far as the levels are concerned I'd check them again in Septem Erm no hang on we've just checked them. +I'd probably check them in October again. +Two months, cos you seem stable . +Two months. +You seem st Unless you get any particular +Mhm. +to it I would recheck that in October. +And then when we see you then we're going to sort sort of summarize what three months on effected levels of lithium has done for you. +To decide whether to continue . +Is it a drug that you can stay on? +They've got people who've been on it for years and years. +Mm. +You've got to keep checking the level. +Mm. +It it's a funny little drug it's related to sodium, old sodium, you've got loads of sodium. +You take it it everyday as with salt. +Er but i i it can replace sodium in certain systems of the body. +In fact that's how it seems to work. +But because of that you've got to watch it's effect on the kidneys, on the body biochemistry. +Mm. +So that's what we have to check from time to time. +Mm. +But it's very very safe provided you keep in within the sort of dosage Like driving on the motorway. +It's safe if you st stick to the speed limit. +Mm. +Usually. +Could you give me some more of that +hormone cream? +Yes. +I was going to ask how you'd gone with that. +Well it's better but it's not right . +Yeah. +Yeah. +Well you've only +Mm. +been on it a fortnight. +Yeah. +So er but +Find I'm down to using it twice a week now . +Twice a week. +Yeah. +So I haven't +Yeah. +used it this week. +Alright, okay. +yeah. +But it's certainly an improvement +Yeah. +to what it was. +Oh good good. +I mean the advantage of that is you get loc You get the local benefits without generalized side-effects. +Mm. +Er and that can be a problem with some folk when you try to manipulate the hormones like that. +But I'm actually using more and more of this cream, as I realize that er if you direct it towards the right part of the body in the right people, +Mm. +it works extremely well. +As I say it's just erm overall feeling generally +Well i mean +horrible. +And you know to some extent it's just time and keeping yourself ticking over that's going to get that aspect of things better. +Yeah. +And that's frustrating for you and it's equally frustrating for me because I know there's absolutely nothing I can do +That's right. +to effect that. +But it's important we keep other An eye on the other things, keep other things ticking over and things like the hormone cream and the lithium will be a help in that. +Yeah. +I mean sometimes just by resting really er you know puts me back again but er it hasn't +Yeah yeah. +Don't overdo the rest. +Well I were going to say i can't rest. +You've got to find a compromise. +I mean it's it's always a com I mean the whole of life is a compromise but especially with this. +the compromise between resting when you feel very very tired, and keeping yourself going so you don't seize up. +Mm. +But you can't overdo the mobility cos you get very very tired. +Yeah. +Well I've been you know, very conscious of that. +And I and when you've had it a long time you +Mm. +become And I'm not the sort of person to sit around willy nilly any way. +But my legs My legs are like jelly, my body's like rubber, you know. +And I sort of Oof. +Ooh I get so mad. +Keep other bits of you going. +Okay? +When When do you want to see me again? +Well. +All else being equal, I would say October with the lithium level and then we're gonna have our review of lithium. +Okay? +If anything flares up in between that's fine. +There should be enough cream there now for four to six weeks on a twice weekly basis, but if you run out just give a ring in. +Right. +That's fine. +Well I'll need my other tablets +Yeah. +Well of course you'll need those anyway. +So er + +golfing conversations of any use. +Pardon? +Golfing conversations of any use. +No. +Why what's wrong with golf? +Has to be you're not recording. +Oh no. +But Danny died on Friday morning. +Sad too really for +Mm. +for me and I think it might be rather than just record an apology for her absence, I think we should just put in something, just to say that we're that we are very sad +Mhm. +that er at Danny's death. +And also I think we should record our admiration at how she has coped really over the last few years +Do we want to send flowers? +I thought we could come to that later on . +Mhm. +Right. +But er I think our admiration for her +Mhm. +should be recorded really +Mhm. +and er +Well that will come in to the meeting as well. +And the meeting cos we really have +Mhm. +to start the reading of the next and last meeting and +Mhm. +all that jazz. +have to start doing that . +Okay? +All right then. +Okey doke. +talking about apologies for this meeting . +Can you speak a little bit louder please. +No. +Is the tape on. +It was. +Yeah. +Oh . +Right meeting. +I would have thought it would have been better in the introduction rather as part of the minutes, would you not have thought so? +Well I thought you wanted it in the minutes.. +problem. +Well all right we'll ha Okay l let's have the minutes of the last meeting then Joan. +Right. +Present, May , Edith , Jim , Duncan , Agnes , Margaret , Kell , Barbara and me. +Apologies from Anne. +The minutes of the previous meeting were ado were read and adopted by Mrs and seconded by Mrs . +Matters arising. +Mrs N was on the committee, and was welcomed by the ladies captain. +Treasurer's report. +The following amounts were held in the accounts. +Deposit, eight hundred and twenty one. +Current, eighty four pound ninety nine. +Cash in hand, thirty two pound ninety nine. +Making a total of nine hundred and thirty eight pounds ninety eight. +Three hundred and eight pounds was for the ladies open, four hundred and twenty for the outing to , two hundred and twenty six had already been paid for the coach, plus all the prizes. +Handicap secretary's report. +There were ninety entries for the ladies open, and entries have now more or less stopped. +Club championship second round was cancelled due to inclement weather, and it final round. +the final round will now be played in conjunction with the golf foundation competition for the eighteenth of August. +A separate notice will be put up in the locker room, that three person bounce games can now be used for cutting handicap. +Secretary's report. +A letter was sent to the church council asking for the tea to be reserved from nine thirty until sixteen thirty on the days of the ladies open, fourth of August. +And to asked for the cream teas to be retained. +This had been agreed. +Letters have been sent to Duncan and Willy be once again acting as starters. +Duncan agreed, but there was no reply from Willy, due to domestic circumstances. +Captain's report. +The trophy for the ladies open has not been engraved for the last few years. +Helen to be contacted and asked for the plinth so that this can be completed before this years event. +Letters to be sent out to local firms as per list. +This should be brought up to date for next year. +Some donations have already been received, and the treasurer will produce a list, a letter of thanks. +Any other business. +Outing. +Trolleys can be hired at . +There'll be one scratch and six handicap prizes for the morning, a scramble for players in the afternoon, with prizes for each of the winning group. +There will be the normally prize, plus any prizes to be between the ladies captain and the handicap secretary. +Tips, ten pounds for the bus driver, and thirteen pounds for the . +The open. +It was suggested that a letter be sent to the church council, asking for a notice lower down than at present, to be positioned to ensure ladies from other clubs, find the fifteenth tee. +Also that each card, a slip should be inserted, and following competitors of the whole at which the longest driving will take place,where the fifteenth tee is sited. +A proposal was put forward to change the outing to a weekday because of the increasing problems of finding a course to accept ladies on a Sunday. +It was agreed to hold a vote on the bus this Sunday, as there were people who would normally be attending and also . +And also if necessary . +Meeting closed, next meeting fifth of July. +Now somebody like to Dr somebody like to . +Well now, business arising from the minutes? +Right. +Joan? +A letter was sent to the church council. +They haven't replied yet, but verbally they said there'd be no problem with the notice. +Mhm. +Er I've done the slips and given them to Margaret to be . +There was no vote taken on the bus. +On the bus. +And Willy has replied +They actually spoke about in at the place right enough. +Some of the girls speaking about it. +Aye they did . +But then we should have got we we sh We should have done it on the way there, but we forget. +There were too +Mhm. +many other things being organized. +Willy has replied and said, he won't be able to do it because of his domestic circumstances. +But erm is going to step in and do it. +Oh that's good. +Good that's that's grand, that's grand. +If there's er there's no more word about Bettie at the moment she +she's just in the same condition as she's been +Mhm. +for the last two or three weeks, yes. +Has the plinth been returned? +Who was who was t +Helen +Yes I know Helen has it. +Did +Me I would imagine would be contacting. +Oh well we don't know. +as long as it's not +There's nothing in the draw is there?get keys for the drawer. +keys. +No. +be in there. +and they don't have keys for the door. +Oh well maybe and Gwen if she comes back. +Yeah. +. +Helen has certainly been asked. +Cos I heard +Mm. +someone asking here about it. +Try and Is she playing on Wednesday does anybody know? +Yeah? +Maybe remind her on Wednesday or find out from her if she you know,asked her. +Anything else on there? +From the last minutes? +Right just. +Pardon? +Nothing to be added is there? +Don't think so. +Apologies for tonight's meeting have been received from Nancy, who is on holiday, and may of course is isn't here because Danny has died. +I don't know how many are going to the funeral on Wednesday morning, it's ten o'clock at Sacred Heart. +Where is it, Sacred Heart? +Which is just at the angle +So it's the one down +Just at the angle the he just the junction of Road and +on the left hand side here. +There's a car park the church. +Is there. +you can get into the car park if you come down er . +you just turn then before the church, there's a car park there. +before the church. +Is that before you take the the angle? +Before you take the angle? +You turn in to the right. +Aye coming down from the cross. +And there there's a car park just behind. +There will be a I think there'll be a lot of cars there. +Mm. +Let's face it, you can cross the r Park across in and walk across. +Mhm. +Yes. +You could actually park erm +I don't I don't think there'll be any difficulty. +Er +Road.. +Anyway the service is at ten o'clock +Mhm. +in the Sacred Heart. +eleven fifteen. +But I know that er the one or two people who told me that they're going, er we were just going to the service in the church and then +Mhm. +come on to the and play our golf afterwards . +Mhm. +Now I know that I'm going and Alma's going, but we've yet to decide I would rather just go to the crematorium +Well that yes well Aha. +Aha. +Erm +It's only be +. +to the crematorium as well? +Or to the church ? +Well that's what they haven't decided. +I see. +leave a wee note up there or something? +I think when +Aha +and then coming . +I think I think so because if if we leave it any +Mhm. +later than that, it's er I mean to go to the crematorium at quarter past eleven, we wouldn't be back here before twelve o'clock. +No the way we was thinking of going we were just gonna go to the the church to find out how many +Go to the church and then come down. +were gonna go to the church and then we would come back down. +That would +I thought she was leaving a note or something, no? +Aye? +did she leave a note? +No. +But anybody who wants to to go to the crematorium +Aha, cos I've from her. +rather than to the cos the church service is long, it does take er nearly an hour I believe +Well Marg I mean I phoned Margaret, she said it takes about an hour. +An hour, but down there there'll +only be a quarter of an hour. +Mhm. +I'm gonna go to the church, but I'm just going straight to work. +Mhm. +Yes. +Yes. +I don't know that we should Do we all do we want to go together +and sit together or are we just go +Yes that would be fine. +I think it probably would. +Mhm. +down the Road or whether it was the one here and wasn't sure either. +Cos I phoned her this morning. +You know what I mean, she wasn't sure . +No, she to she told me on the phone. +told me that it's that it's Sacred Heart . +Mhm. +So I phoned her last Nancy phoned me last Friday afternoon before she went on holiday to tell me, and I phoned I wasn't sure whether just to sort of play it low key or then I thought, Well I know I really should just give here a wee ring. +sympathy to her and er she she was alright, she was grand. +She said that you were been quite shocked though because +Mhm. +they'd been ca they'd been called so many times you know when he was low. +And er she just sort of that it happened so quickly. +But at the same time she said, Well we're pleased because you know, he didn't suffer any pain or anything. +Just The the nurse had turned him at half past five in the morning. +And when they came to wake him up and get him ready for breakfast to feed him at six o'clock, he was gone. +Ah. +could have been a stroke. +They thought it was perhaps just that. +You know. +A fairly big stroke that just +She's been an absolute brick +She has really We're full of admi admiration for her. +She's been ma she's been a really constant The constant devotion that she had +Mhm. +for him really was was really super. +great And of course her doing it all with her usual +Mhm. +wit and good nature that +Mhm. +However. +So anyway, no more apologies . +flowers no? +Oh flowers Yeah I was going to say, I thought we might send flowers to her maybe on Thursday or Friday. +Just let you know, let it get past and then send her some. +Some flowers. +Yes Joy has a Joy +A friend who's a florist. +Mhm. +A friend who's a florist and gives a very you know, extremely good value for +Twelve pounds. +Mhm. +Well well I know that er Marian's flowers are are they're beautifully arranged too and they're you're getting +You'll probably get er a lot more flowers for your money from Marian than you would get from . +No guarantee. +If you want to use the guy that you normally use fair enough. +How old was erm Danny? +Was he about twenty three? +Twenty four? +Was he not older than that . +I thought he was about twenty eight. +I understood he was nearer thirty. +I know time has stood still really. +been quite a few years she's been +Oh Aye. +Well where will where will we +Meet? +No where will Where will we go for the flowers? +That's right, fair enough then. +Now do you organize that, because you've got the money Edie, is +that? +Well if you don't mind. +Erm. +You might have a slight problem, because we use the same I'll I'll try and get out the cash. +Oh of course. +we usually if I want a cheque signed you see or +And it has to be May? +You don't have any cash in hand or anything? +Well at the moment we've got five pounds cash in hand. +But I'll make it up, I can always square it up later on. +Yes yes. +books later. +Yes. +Yes. +Right if Edie wouldn't mind doing that, we'd be pleased. +Right now it's your turn Edie for the Treasurer's report. +Right. +There's seven hundred and eighty pounds seventy pence in the deposit account. +Seven hundred +And eighty pounds seventy P. +And forty nine pence in the current account. +And Five pound thirty one, cash in hand. +Which makes it seven hundred and eighty six pence. +Er now three hundred and forty three pounds of that, is for the open day. +Cos we've had donations, we've had t twenty five pound donation from . +Er and ten pound donation from . +Oh yes? +Erm have given us forty pounds worth of holiday vouchers. +let you know they'll come back from the letters. +Yes Oh that's very good, that's quite a good response then. +Who do you have donations m made payable to? +Good that's excellent. +Does anybody know if we've if we've had any more entries? +No? +Perhaps could tell us . +Do we get the treasurer's thingy. +No we . +Do we need a statement about the outing. +I assume we didn't make a loss on it. +Well we +What do you mean, Well? +Oh dear was that the wrong question ? +We had a lovely outing actually. +It's just cos the bus was subsidized that's . +We didn't we did there was no loss. +Oh well in that case, a jolly good time was had by all. +we had a good subsidized bus. +Yes. +I think er I think everybody enjoyed the outing. +There were a few complaints about the rough was too rough and the coarse was too bad and whatnot, but I quite liked the fact that it was labelled because it meant that Rosemary could and could play the . +They wouldn't have managed eighteen holes had it been you know a hilly course. +So and we got the benefit of the scenery roundabout. +It was good. +You do appreciate you own course when you come back . +Oh +Appreciate the fairways. +Well we played Monday, and would do anything to have 's greens. +Well certainly the greens were long but the fairways were about +The greens were good Oh aye, I got my feet rather wet, from being in the bog. +Bit steep for us, thirty quid a round. +So we have the report from from you Edie. +My secr No no, I haven't got my secretary's report here. +and we can't er the handicap secretary's not here yet so we don't know. +Captain's not here, so I don't know. +Pardon? +A vice captain's one? +I didn't w I didn't win anything. +Now that was a very good idea actually. +Mm. +Giving us a consolation prize of a golf ball. +Yes yes +Yes it was. +Mhm very good. +I think that was good, we'll keep that in mind for next year . +Mhm. +Have we decided for next year? +Well +Well I think we are round to any other business I suppose. +Next year's outing could come u +I wrote down in the book, some of the places. +There was ,, West Lothian,,and . +But I couldn't get a phone number for that one. +, it's it's Golf course, and it's the Golf Club. +The Golf Course is +I think yes +. +Aye. +Erm I couldn't get Greenbaum. +Somebody told me Greenbaum was lovely,come to the house +get at weekends? +No. +No. +is thirty pounds Thirty pounds a head. +Edinburgh and it's thirty pounds a day. +Erm , I've just got a phone number to phone them. +, no Sunday. +Erm what was the other one? +West Lothian,. +They're yes it's quite a late . +Well it's not very +It's hilly but it's not it's not as bad as +It's not strenuous. +as from what I gather. +It's not strenuous. +And the problem with that is that is like a tiny boxroom. +It really is very very small. +But the problem with the ladies room is too small I asked the ladies captain what they did. +considering we're going as far what about . +No we just no it was just, people had said these things and won't take on a Sunday. +But I just said put them down in the book . +were coming back weren't they? +West Lothian, West Lothian we've already written to West Lothian and it was too early. +Aha. +They don't know the dates +Right. +Mhm. +until the fixture list is completed next year. +keep the letter and try and contact us +Mhm. +again in nineteen ninety four. +Right. +Mhm. +So you're gonna have to gonna start writing letters we're gonna make sure we +West Lothian's locker room is half the size of ours. +Not counting the toilets . +Mhm. +I asked the captain what they did when they did when they had ladies parties? +She says, Oh well we just sort of all move along. +But you're all arriving at the one time. +I mean +That's right that's right, yeah. +No it's not m it's not much it's not much further than. +These are only names that people have mentioned and I wrote them down, I write them down. +It's not much further than . +And the the road has been improved. +So you should be well with a decent bus you should get the course +Well I enjoyed it. +was one of the places that we. +The clubhouse is lovely. +Aha, the clubhouse is lovely . +Aha. +And the food was very nice you said. +I we I went and looked at it I looked at it, it looked all right and I thought +We went to the opening, wondered why it was,met everybody. +And then we got out on the course and we realized . +You knew why. +People had been before and +Cos I think we've written to them about three or four times. +Yeah. +Keeps being on my list +It is very difficult a Sunday, but it Actually although we didn't take a vote on the bus, the few people that I did speak to a few people, and they were not terrible exited at the idea of of an outing during the week. +Well for one thing we have got really have quite a few school teachers now who just couldn't get off during How many school teachers do we have Agnes? +Well I don't know I haven't look through the list. +bringing it into July or are too many people on holiday in July? +Even the first week in July. +Mhm. +Even the first week. +Well where's Nancy, she's away for a start. +Mm. +But she wasn't away till the third or the fourth, if you could get it within the very first few days +So at the mo at the moment what +Joyce is a school teacher. +she knows you and her name's Joyce . +And know her. +What are the what are the possibilities that we have then?and West Lothian. +and West Lothian both said it's too early didn't they. +'s kept us on file and will give us the first date available in June. +Er is the same. +Erm +But we weren't interested in were we? +Er is that all you mentioned? +West Lothian, that was too early and we're to write back to . +You're really as well leaving I know +We've had a lot of problems. +Well you used to be able to book up a over a year in advance. +But it's getting now there's there's no way they're gonna take you. +I mean I had the same problem when I was secretary. +That Joan's having now . +Mhm. +You know every time you go it was too early, too early right back. +There was very few who were willing to take +Mhm. +I think it's they're booking +told to put nineteen ninety five on the ledger as well. +Nineteen ninety five? +I like the sound of I like the the distance it's away and er +I would think it would be depend on the weather. +Well that depends the weather depends most courses +And God knows how that bus'll get to . +Even if it's the same bus. +You've actually been here just yourself +How how did you find it. +Well I found it difficult because I I still cannae play golf well, but I could play even less well then. +But if you hit When you're going round this hill, if you hit to the right, the ball always came like too many . +enjoyed it. +All the rest of them that could play golf enjoyed it, because +we're not going to play golf, we're going to have a good time. +Some place where we can enjoy ourselves. +But it's you get a terrific view once you've +Yes I was going to say that. +The views should will be quite nice from parts of that course I would think. +Just just thinking of itself, I don't know the course. +You're going round clockwise one way and anticlockwise the other. +There was a lot of congestion the night we were there. +A lot of +Mm? +hold ups. +We could see people You know, why that would be I don't know and I thought possibly +times when you couldn't see beyond that hole . +Aye, I though, Well maybe it's a difficult hole and there's hazards or something . +Do you think it's worth writing to Has anybody else any thoughts about ? +Do you know golf club? +Mhm. +Mhm. +Cos they changed since we were there. +It used to be +beautiful. +The club house beautiful cos we've got +Aha a wee course and a big course. +You played there +We went there we went there last Easter. +Mhm. +For the weekend. +Have you any idea what the green fees would be there ? +It's going to make the cost of the outing very expensive . +Mhm. +And did you get round it alright? +We've still got +Pam reckons it was thirty pounds . +Yeah. +Yeah that's well that's I think that would make our er outing very very expensive. +Maybe too expensive for some of the members. +That was one of the advantages of you know +Mhm. +That's right. +As well as being flat it was very cheap. +look at then if it's municipal. +I think we are goi we are going to have to face the fact that we are not going to get an outing +Is municipal? +Well +for l for +Is it? +Mhm. +For less than thirty pounds +Mhm. +going to a private club . +I thought it was quite expensive the last time we wrote there as well. +Well this i this i I feel that er I think your weekend fees are always dearer than your week +it was not before +It's got wide open fairways. +Well we played at before but we +But the food we we didn't like the food, but you could always arrange to eat somewhere place else. +I I thought was a . +It was really it was really a lovely too wasn't it. +Remember how hot it was. +Mhm. +five minutes +Well I didn't enjoy because +Every every element available was there. +. +Well another thing is the the fees are quite expensive at weekends . +Are they? +Are they. +They have gone up considerably.. +oh yes. +Now that Gleneagles don't have the princes and the Glendevon, they've just got that Monarch course now, more and more people are playing because they realize it's it's next door. +heading down that way, is there nothing down there? +I don't +what about in East Kilbride? +Have you played there? +is +Yeah. +lovely. +We played a well we went to the open last year, quite a few of us, and we're going again er and w It wasn't a particularly nice day but we thought if it's it was a nice day, this would really be a lovely course. +I've got the number but no price . +What what their food and everything is like, I I wonder what +Well we could get the bus to take us a long route. +No. +What to East Kilbride? +Aha. +Mhm. +And just pretend we're going far away. +It doesn't matter how far you go see the see the the time we went to . +There was one particular hole and I looked at it and thought, in a million years we will never get up there. +And I thought, you would need a miracle to get up there. +And I thought well well +there's just no, I've just gotta get up. +And all of a sudden +as I was climbing the hill I thought, Oh gosh, this trolley seems to be coming up here no problem. +It is a miracle. +pulled her own trolley. +and you know how sod in rain. +And she was pulling her trolley, pushing mine and there was me toddling up there thinking, This trolleys become +But er about ? +What . +Did you say was very hilly? +It's I don't think it's hilly, because you're up the hill, you're already up the hill. +You're right up the top of the hill . +I would I would think it'll be very expensive . +There is a lot of cardie +visitors welcome weekdays only +Yes fifteen pounds at weekends. +What, fifteen pence? +Pounds. +But you can't play at weekends . +No. +Sunday's quite a problem. +Do you think it's worth enquiring about even though it's not very far. +Yes. +What about our open day by the way? +I don't know there's anything else we need to organize. +have parties on Sundays? +No. +it just says on the book weekdays only. +Weekdays only. +I know they all are though aren't they? +Well is out then of course. +If we're talking Sunday. +How did you get on? +How did you do? +Seventy five. +I think your would be too high at . +I don't think they'd take you in on a Sunday either? +I don't think you would go on a Sunday at . +I can't imagine we'd get Sunday. +it was all the names . +Greenbaum. +Well Greenbaum's nice. +Somebody had said something about that earlier. +if we're talking about going to the you can go down to play the course there, you'd only get one round played. +We could also get very wet weather +What's the course like Joan? +Alright. +Mm. +Just as long as not a South Westerly or a gale. +is quite a long course as well. +There's no bunkers at . +Yes there are I was seventeen on that. +It says that in the book thing, there's no bunkers. +Now how is +Do you think we should leave it till leave it till after our open day? +And then +then by about September we can we might get a few more positive answers . +You'll get responses. +Sunday. +Fine so we know that they take visitors. +Except Saturdays. +Visitors welcome except Saturdays. +Mhm. +Fees? +Fees are fifteen pounds. +I'm positive I didn't really mean yes I was really meaning we might get some answers that aren't +nearer next year. +Fifteen pounds is a day, it's that's at weekends. +It's twelve pounds a round or fifteen pounds a day. +Full facilities available for eating. +I think it's Where's that? +West Lothian it's on the side of a hill, but how hilly I don't know. +Sixty eight. +Well maybe we should leave this till after the open day, and then we can really concentrate on it. +Go through the You take the book home, and you come up with ideas for the next meeting. +How many people have been through? +You're actually better asking people. +Well I think, there are +When you c when you're going up the hills, they're long gradients,you're not really aware of them. +And there's a quite a lot of hills heading down. +But we're not sure of facilities. +Mhm. +And doesn't +we were discussing last year. +Where is it. +It's in the address book. +How I quite enjoyed it but it's got deep bunkers. +I think we should study the book further and maybe wait till after the come back to it after our open day +. +Now we need the minutes secretary's report now that she has er arrived. +Well she wasn't going to come so it wasn't that exciting.. +Right ninety four, for the open day now. +Er from last time. +I need to looking for one person,someone. +Who? +Er that but never says anything positive. +So I haven't bought anything. +About half eleven, eleven thirty six. +My mum had tried some but she's +What handicap has this person got?. +Oh that? +Aye that. +She's got a caravan down +I know who you mean. +Yes. +. +Right . +Er I'll ask if she can find anyone else. +What time? +About eleven thirty six. +Well that's when +Right eleven thirty six. +Yes. +Right. +And the only thing is that finally after three months of waiting for the received all their medals and things for so it can go ahead. +They had asked for stationery and the medals that you know . +Sent me two sheets for the official ledger, two sheets peoples handicaps, three medals and two medal certificates and that was the whole +Also I've got to say, I've had a letter back from the F L G about the letter about . +. +. +ample facilities and we've got to use the facilities offered for nothing by members. +Mm. +Yes well there you are. +I rather suspected the the competition +I don't think they'll bother. +qualifies to play in it will not +People will not go +No. +And maybe then they'll get the message. +Other than that I've got nothing to do . +Well the the other thing about er that involves Margaret is the arrangements for this Wednesday. +Mhm. +Because +Yes I was going to say about to try and start later in the morning if that would suit people . +Well that was well this is the idea, because the funeral's ten o'clock. +I had suggested it yesterday +And it will be eleven before the service is finished, so the earliest I think we should +I think quarter to twelve. +I thought half past eleven tee off. +I assume everybody's just going to come straight round. +Yeah. +There. +Because I'd sort of said that +It's No I was going to say, there are those perhaps who'd h haven't heard and those who don't know about it. +If somebody if they turn up at the normal time, I assume when though there's you know we could leave a not a not a notice and they could just go out. +Mhm. +I mean, that means there's no draw I suppose that those of us who've been could have a quick draw when we +Well in my +. +I mean there's nothing to stop them doing that . +Who how many people are there? +Location fourteen miles North of Dumfries. +Parkland, erm weekends, fourteen pounds. +Eating facilities available, except Monday. +Margaret , me, Carol, Morag,. +Now I don't know about Morag you know, and Mae knows. +It's a well e aye. +Are you playing in the morning? +And so you were going as well. +So it's just a matter, as soon as we come back, get out. +Yes. +That's it. +Mhm. +So we don't really need to make a set time actually, if we're all there we just all come and we just . +Right. +Right so that er well that, there really isn't a problem then on Wednesday morning . +Margaret. +It's not in the book? +Right, can we go on to the open day? +Erm +Not till I get my pen back. +Do you want this one then? +We should really get, organize +I mean Mae'll be around as of next week. +I don't think she'll be staying off for any great length of time, with the open day coming up I think she'll be +quite keen to get back so, we don't want to go. +I think she'll find life abnormal enough +do the normal routine she does she'll maybe think . +I mean the if she were going to be next week or something, she'll maybe want to organize most of it herself. +Aha. +We should put notices up soon ab asking for donations for her tombola +We could start doing that. +Thank you. +Maybe as of +open day Margaret, we were saying that we er we should really put the notices up asking for donations for the tombola. +And do you think we start selling raffles tickets, any time. +Is it too soon or is it +having a raffle. +The tombola took in +Aye. +about two hundred pounds. +And everybody brings stuff for it. +Black fishnets? +No they were +quite sure he hasn't heard of before. +I'll tell you about it at the end. +. Did you not realize Carol there was +You're on tape, you're Candid Camera . +I didn't know what it was there for. +Aye well that's recording us. +to get everything in the minutes. +Well this is for blackmail purposes. +So apart from that, do we need do we start do we wait till next week before we start selling raffle tickets? +Do you know if Helen has got the for the +Well there are prizes. +If anybody says, What are the prizes? +I'll say see Agnes cos she knows +Never mind the prizes +And Agnes'll . +And all the lady members always either before or on the day, come up with bags of stuff for the tombola. +Oh yes we always. +And we've got the two I've got the two +Great. +Yes. +Eventually. +Eventually. +I want one, I want one. +They're lovely actually, they're nice +we were in town on Saturday and I saw two really nice sports bags, but we had so many parcels I I didn't hadn't the heart to suggest to Bill we +Aha. +buy any more . +But I'll I'll go and get them soon. +now got two A A books, this years of that, similar to that. +two sets of head covers. +And other things. +we were talking about them, we were raising money to to buy extra practice +Were we? +You don't need it then it just goes, you know it can go into the +We need raffle tickets. +Oh we need to get raffle tickets, Obviously this Wednesday, till we get more. +I suppose so. +Of course we can start selling raffle tickets. +What else do we need? +That's a shame . +Oh listen Margaret do you know looking for the the plinth in the drawer. +No we'll find it. +Anything else we have to do for the open day? +Do you want a typewritten sheet, remember last year you had a typewritten sheet . +Well that's right, we don't actually need that. +I remember sitting helping to write the cards the night before and we were writing them off a typewritten sheet. +Is the any to compare the the entries we have this year with the entries we got last year. +And see who's not coming this year that did last year. +It just might be somebody we know, and jog them along and say +those lists you did, those typewritten lists from last year. +probably destroyed but they should be on disk. +They should still be disk. +It might be worth going through them and er anybody we think +Aye cos I mean we we thought +We should do this for the mixed open as well, keep a a note of the entries from one year to the other and you can get in touch with people and say, Are you playing or not +We don't have all that many places left do we +how many can we take all together. +Is the morning getting full. +The morning's just about full +Well it might be worth looking through last year's list in the day. +Right if Edie can manage to find that, if she doesn't mind. +Well and do you want me to do one for this year? +Yes. +Who does the notices that go up? +we ask to help . +I d think we can leave that actually till just nearer +I was told that 's just verbally agreed rather than +Aha. +officially agreed. +Yeah. +But it is nice if they are asked, sometimes it's sometimes they are just expected to do and if they haven't been officially asked. +It's nice no to be forgotten about as well. +That happens that's happened in the +Yeah I think +past . +Yes cos they've been starting +Oh that would be good cos I was going to say normally,is er sort of up in that corner in charge of the tombola but er +Just don't +This is the some the th one of the things I was going to suggest about I was going to leave it till next meeting, is that we we try and organize ourselves so that we are not su Last year I found myself sitting there frantically writing names on raffle tickets, knowing I was going out to play in about ten minutes, but there was nobody there to take over. +Well that's it. +You know I should be back when there's somebody going away +Well we could maybe leave it till the next committee meeting to to organize ourselves to +So we know what sort of times we're expected to be sort of selling raffle tickets and +Another thing, it's quite easy to get mixed up. +And it's better really if one person does it. +I don't know if Anne wants to do it or not. +Is putting the numbers on the tombola. +On the prizes +Well I was going to say +That's quite a lot of work for +It is +Yes but on the day, people are walking up there with carrier bags full of the stuff, and it's got to be done, and put out. +Maybe the week before Is all the stuff coming here this time though +was taking it all home. +There's nowhere to store it +I took it home last year. +Well we need maybe I don't know +I had everything in in the house any anything that they'd brought up early beforehand. +That's right. +the stuff down the night before with the +Yes. +numbers on it? +Perhaps we should leave that for Mae cos maybe Mae would like to do that herself. +If she If she has room at home . +Right yes I would agree. +Okay? +Mhm. +We'll just leave that for the meantime and keep We'll we'll remember. +We can't just leave it till our next meeting cos it only is +. +I'll maybe speak to her about it a week, a week on Wednesday I I assume she'll be back then. +Try and remember to say to her. +I might have a problem my daughter's expecting on the twenty first of this month. +And I intend to go down to London. +Mhm. +Right now I'd hoped but if she's late. +Yes yes. +problem. +Well don't worry about it +I can do I can I can sort out +I'm gonna ask Moira to do the cheque, write the cheque. +What cheque? +The presentation cheque. +Now don't worry about it, I'll help you with that anyway Edie. +already had a list. +I don't know whether there'll only be one or not. +Yes well Bill and and Margaret . +Usually usually Charlie helps down the +and Sam usually. +Is he going to help? +working. +Oh you're working. +How dare you be working? +day is it? +Wednesday. +You're working. +might be on holiday. +It's just so we can send you an official love letter. +You can't be on holiday. +You can't go away on holiday, Helen's got to be here on the day. +It's Helen's place +I don't know when we're starting back, I'm not sure. +No you start on the Thursday, you keep Wednesday off. +Funny that isn't it. +we just get started we get Do you get the raffle tickets too? +Edie? +Is that +I get the raffle tickets. +I could probably get cheap ones. +As long as they can tear. +They're very hard when you're in a hurry . +What were you doing? +About a fiver or something +So each of those big books with a thousand tickets only cost me a pound. +They're over two pounds if you buy them in John Menzies. +Mhm. +It's easy to take off the outside when when you come to take the inside ones it's quite difficult. +Sometimes the inside ones depend how carefully the the ones on top +That that's right. +And it it's easy when you're not busy, but if you get a spell of being busy,. +How much are the raffle tickets going to be? +The usual fifty pence a strip? +Making it clear to them they get they get it's not +they're not going in in strips, they're g they're getting five chances for their fifty pence. +It's very common nowadays +I know but it's only giving you one +I think it's better if you give them fi They'll buy more tickets if they're getting +I think they'll just buy a strip anyway. +That's right you don't want just to have four chances, you want to have twenty chances . +No I was saying if I was saying if I was going to spend that on raffle tickets, it wouldn't matter if I was getting +The other thing is we sometimes get children around and they come and they just want to buy. +You know two tickets. +Well their mother'll have to give them +I think we just we should stick to er giving them five chances for their. +It just means like a person could +more people have the opportunity of winning. +It's perfect to we're going to get raffle tickets and hopefully get started selling them. +A week on Wednesday or so. +Yes I think. +This Wednesday? +Right okay we just we +If you start on those two books and then +Oh I see. +Ju I thought you were talking about the tombola when you were saying fifty pence a strip, sorry. +Something like that yes. +Is that the usual. +So we get more raffle tickets this week. +Is there anything else that we Right those are the the most imp urgent things,get the notices up and er Who does the by the way Who is it +Will you please do them this year Agnes? +No. +Have you time? +Probably. +Thank goodness tomorrow? +For Wednesday . +Wednesday. +I'll see if I c if I've got any paper lying about the house. +Can anybody think of anything else ? +That's no problem. +Any other er business? +I'd like to ask something, I don't know if it's got anything to do with it or not, but it really annoyed me yesterday. +And that was the eighth green not being on. +Well +And what I was playing was an official competition. +It was an official competition. +It's because +Yes well that's that was noth Yesterday was nothing whatsoever to do with the L G U or the ladies section. +But tomorrow we'll be on the the green. +And we will be playing from the tee which is at the front left hand corner. +What sh happened yesterday actually was, that the big flag on the new green, should have been taken out. +But it wasn't. +The front corner front left hand corner of that of +the new tee, is our official tee and er that's where it will stay a onto the new green. +It's a par three and I'm assured that it measures more than the hundred and forty yards required for us to be par three. +That was a mistake. +The big flag should have been taken off the the new green and it wasn't. +that that green wasn't put on for that competition. +Well I would agree with you there but that's we weren't running it, and we'd nothing to do with er with the organizing of yesterday's . +So there should be no problem on Wednesday at all on Wednesday. +But that is we we're going to go We'll on Wednesday officially we'll be on the new green . +for extra day scores then +It's still a par three. +See we're that's what makes us well that's what makes us seventy two now. +Any other er +Any other er business then ladies? +I think +Next meeting. +The next meeting I think we'd already agreed it was going to be the first Monday in August which I think is the + +Like normal people have their computers set up so that they print out. +Before I went out, I +You muck it up. +I printed out +On purpose. +I printed out. +Didn't I? +Yes I know but from Wor Works. +No I didn't print out from Works, I printed out from Diary. +I went into Diary and I printed out my appointments for next week. +And I didn't get funny numbers and silly squiggles, cos I used a reasonable package and not WordPerfect. +So what is your problem young lady? +Oh there's no problem with me. +Did you want to print, did you want to print something? +Yes she's she's . +Yeah I'm writing a letter to mothers I'm writing a letter to mum and I just wanted it to be . +She can read it from the screen, she doesn't need it printed out . +Yeah but she wants to +I'll write a letter to Chris +And other people. +Yes. +Right. +Well Chris. +Not to other people. +Right. +So, would we like to try printing something out from WordPerfect? +Save that now Sarah. +finished. +No but you save it +before you finish. +Can I just finish my sentence please, +Right. +so I know what I'm talking about? +Yes. +have I got to finish my sentence? +How did your lesson go? +I don't know. +I haven't had time to think yet, I've only just got back in on the phone and sorting out the printer. +It was alright it wasn't, I wasn't +I wasn't looking forward to it much, it was better than expected. +I managed to c to cover virtually the complete G C S E chemistry course in an hour and a half. +And, actually it was more than an hour and a half. +It was an hour and a half plus about ten minutes cos those C ninety tapes are about five minutes too long on each side. +Erm I'm afraid dinner's gonna be a little later than I anticipated cos that chicken is quite big isn't it? +Mm. +Also we seem to be awfully short of knives. +We are. +I think they must in the van. +I don't think so. +I noticed there were very few there yesterday. +I haven't got anything to do the vegetables with. +There were some not too long ago but +? +Well I think they're in the van John actually, or you've used them to stir paint with and other things. +Could be. +Secretary. +Is that how you spell secretarial? +Yeah. +Yeah? +Ooh! +I was going secre . +Two more to go. +John. +Right. +Okay. +Would you like to save that? +Do you know how, do you know how to save it? +No. +How do you save it Sue? +Well I I do F ten but er that may be set up differently you see. +Everything has been changed. +I would try F ten. +Just press F ten? +Yeah. +Mhm. +If you don't know what to do right. +Right. +Now this is set up differently cos this is set up very sensibly, so that you can fill in who wrote it, when, what date and what it's about, and when you try and find it later it's easier to find instead of scrapping through lots of files that don't have a long document . +Yes and also take long long time if you do the sort of volume of work that I have to do. +Now that's true. +Okay. +So the date document name. +What do you want to call it? +If you press N +N? +N for name, it'll let you type in the docu document name. +Erm what do you want to call it? +Mumsy. +Letter to mum. +Mum. +Mumsy. +Call it mumsy then. +Is that how you say it? +Mumsy? +Well it's your word, you spell it the way you want . +No that's fine. +M U M S Y. +That's fine. +Mumsy. +Right. +Erm document type . +Oh so if you press enter it'll come down one line. +Enter. +That big key on the side. +Or return. +That one? +Yeah. +And delete, delete to get rid of the S M. +That's it, that's delete, that one's backspace. +Right. +And then if you put your initials. +My initials. +Without the full stops. +So that's it. +Shall I do it in capitals? +If you, if you wish. +How about S L P? +Why does everyone want me to put L in? +It's really +I only want you to cos it'll make it up to three. +That's fine. +Enter. +And then T for author. +S L P. +Enter. +You can guess who the typist is. +S L P. +And what's the subject? +S for subject. +Letter. +Lett letter. +. Letter. +Erm +Okay . +And K for key words. +What are the key words? +What are, what's the main point of the letter, what's it about? +Love. +Okay. +Luv L U V, or L A V as the young lady over here says. +L O V E. +I said love. +Did you love? +Enter. +wicked woman and enter yes. +Thank you. +What does abstract mean? +Now enter again. +Oh. +Now document to be saved, C S U mark Sarah dot mum , okay? +Now enter again. +Don't blame me if this ridiculous replace existing ? +Yes. +press Y? +Yeah. +Yeah. +Saving . +And now try and print it. +Now do you know how to print? +Shift F seven. +Shift F seven. +Shift, shift F seven. +Hold down shift and keep it down and press F seven. +And let's try and print one page. +Right switch the printer on. +Cos we're just going to practice. +Switch your printer on. +black button at the side. +Right. +Mhm. +Now press. +I don't like these high technology things . +Then guess one for page. +Hang on, it's two for page actually. +One is document press. +Oh two okay yes. +P for page. +Some of us use numbers and that's probably why the printer prints out in numbers. +Whereas I use letters. +Right And what have you got? +Right. +in a code. +got lots of exciting stuff there. +So what sort of printer do you think you're talking to? +I checked it, it says it's +A dumb one. +printing to that one. +Right hold down shift F one. +Hold down the shift and press F one. +I just did. +Oh do you want me to hold +You have to exit from that first if you want to +Alright we'll, we'll use the +do a different thing. +Pardon? +F seven. +Will that do? +With shift or not? +F. +No, just F seven on its own. +Save document ? +Yes. +Save document ? +No. +No. +Cos you've already saved it. +Right. +You might as m exit WordPerfect ? +No. +Right. +I don't know if we're going to be able to print anything here, but let's have erm F one for help. +As it says up here,press F one for help . +Press F one again. +And these are your function keys and what they do so if you ever need to know what to do, F one F one, and it tells all you need to know. +What do we want to do? +Set up . +So shift and F one should give us set up, so first of all press enter to exit help. +Now shift and F one. +Right do we want to set up the mouse to display the environment, or what? +I think it's environment. +Never know with this. +Try E for environment. +Erm units of measure, alternate keyboards . +No I don't think it's this do you? +No. +Okay so +No it isn't. +escape. +Sue might know but she's not telling us. +Erm +It's set up printer. +Right where, where is, where does that come under mouse, display, environment, initial settings, keyboard layout, location of files. +So we're in the wrong set up. +So escape from this and we'll go into initial set up I think. +F sev +F one F one. +Shift F +Oh okay. +Go on. +Okay which one do you think it is? +Try F one F one again and we'll get +Shift and F one? +It's, no. +No just F one F one. +It isn't that. +F one. +Right, and that tells us +It's shift F seven. +Right shift F seven gives us print. +Okay. +Right okay. +So +Yes but it tells you all the facilities of print. +So F seven. +So esc so enter to escape from help +Enter to escape from that first. +cos we're in help. +And now shift F seven. +Sh shift +Oh. +F seven. +I haven't she pressed shift there we are. +Right. +Then just +Now you're trying to save a document now. +You didn't do what you thought you were doing. +It said, save document, and it had a Y there, meaning it was going to do that if you pressed enter. +You pressed enter. +It doesn't on yours it does all this, before you can get into print. +Does it? +Yes it does John. +Isn't it a swine? +So what you just put there is nothing. +Enter. +You delete it. +Just press enter there. +Right. +Document to be saved ? +I, document to be saved, I normally just do F ten. +Right. +But when you do shift F seven for print on this it comes up with all this +This is a this is a sidetrack. +Jus just press enter and get out of this. +Error. +Access denied that's alright. +Erm escape. +Now try shift F se hold down shift and press F seven. +And what did we want to do select printer looks like a good idea. +It's +It's, it's selected a Panasonic +Okay try that. +K X P Eleven Twenty Four. +Okay so press S. +I B M Proprinter X Twenty Four . +Now you've got your num-lock on. +With the num-lock on every time you try and go to the cursor keys, arrow keys, you put peculiar numbers in instead. +So take num-lock off. +Go up one. +And press enter and we'll now select an I B M Proprinter. +That's done that and now print page. +Just +P. +Put P. +Put, put your, your printer on. +Switch your printer on. +Well it's not working very well. +Okay. +Well this morning I dropped in my briefcase there, copies of things that I printed out, all lovely. +Well what's gone wrong then? +We didn't do anything. +Did we? +No. +I've done, did nothing different to what I normally do when I +When I normally do it, and it didn't do what it normally does. +I haven't touched anything. +Have I? +No. +No. +Do you want to have a go? +Well I'll just do a little trick. +If you'd like to get into, if you move over that way. +Now if you'd like to get into the print menu again. +Remembering how you did it, with a little help from your friend over here. +And set it back to a, to a Panasonic K X P Eleven Twenty Four, which will be on the list. +And Sue will tell you how to do it. +And I'll set this up so it thinks it's a Panasonic K X P Eleven Twenty Four. +Won't I? +Shift F seven. +Yeah. +What's it say? +It says creation date, document name , document summary in other words. +Enter. +Document to be saved ? +Okay just press enter. +Access denied . +Access denied . +Escape. +Oh. +Erm Do F seven. +Shift as well? +No. +Save document yes or no ? +Yeah. +Enter enter enter. +What does it say now? +Document summary . +Okay? +Do try and print it again. +We're trying to sort it out. +Shift F seven four to resume printing. +Shift F seven four. +Right. +So let's cancel the print job we've got in. +Should we? +Yeah. +Star is all jobs. +All jobs, just enter S. +Cancel jobs. +Cancel which jobs ? +Star. +Three. +Cancel all the jobs ? +Yes. +Now they should all be cancelled. +And select printer. +Panasonic K X P Eleven Twenty Four and enter. +Okay. +Print page, P. +Am I too heavy? +No no. +No. +And we've got that document in at the moment. +We don't want that. +So, we'll use the big . +Exit WordPerfect ? +Yes. +Cancel print jobs ? +Yes. +So that's just got out of WordPerfect. +We'll have to get back into WordPerfect and load your file. +And print it. +W P. +F five. +If you do end it should go down to the end. +Do you know the file number? +No. +Right well let's start +Wait a minute, wait a minute. +Now just don't get snappy. +Pardon? +Don't get snappy. +I hadn't noticed that I was. +Did you think it was me getting snappy? +So if you can try and explain to Sarah what you're doing, she'll know how to do it next time. +I don't know myself . +Ah well. +So. +The file extension, the one, one which I saw was dot mum. +So if you set file mask and look for files ending dot mum it should pull it out. +It's nice and warm on that. +Mm . +Sit in the chair. +Sit on the chair. +Mother. +Sit on the chair . +Mum. +Well what? +The file . +Why don't you sit on the chair and do it? +Come on. +Can I stick the telly on mum ? +You've created a used directory. +You know I sometimes find with some of my students it is very counterproductive to have their mother in on the lessons. +You know they get all ratty sometimes. +Yeah yeah I know you find it hard to believe but they do. +Have you found that file yet? +No. +Would you like me to find it? +Have you got any idea what you called it? +Sarah. +Why don't you use Ferret, and find any files written today. +So if you come out of WordPerfect. +Well it might +If you boo has that been booted up with that in? +how do you mean? +No. +The computer's switched on when that's pressed in. +Cos I haven't checked your +No no no. +rubbishy thing for viruses. +No. +Okay. +Right. +No save, get out of WordPerfect. +It's rubbish WordPerfect. +Isn't it? +Right. +You just enter. +Jus just Ferret and it'll tell you what to do. +Make sure you're in C colon backslash. +Are you? +No. +Well it doesn't make a lot of difference, but er it might be an idea to be in C colon backslash. +And then what do you do? +Set a floppy disk . +Do I just do C colon? +C D space backslash enter. +And your prompt now says, check that your prompt is C colon backslash. +Set a floppy so it can be written to in drive A. +Ferret needs to know the date a file was written . +So you now type F three will do instead of typing Ferret. +No sorry. +Yeah type Ferret. +And then today's date, which is +Backslash. +No. +Space. +Space. +Today's date, which is? +O nine. +O nine. +O nine slash No not backslash, slash. +O nine slash O four slash ninety three. +And that should find all files written today. +It'll pull out quite a lot of erm . +Now just say no. +It's in the instructions there, say no to all these. +But if a file comes up that looks like Sarah's file, and you fancy copying it to that floppy you can say yes and it'll copy it on there. +Okay. +And the other thing is were you running from the hard drive or from that floppy?cos I didn't want the tape-recorder travelling. +people are like. +Right you don't want that one. +Or that. +Or that. +Have you got the right date ? +Well hang on don't get rid of that what's on the screen. +W P fifty one. +Well press F three. +Is it the ninth of the fourth? +Did you check the date? +Is it the ninth of the fourth ninety three today? +Friday April the ninth. +Which is the ninth of the fourth eighty three in English format. +Okay. +I wonder if it does it in American format. +It's always worked before. +Right it's going to do it ninth of the fourth ninety three. +Okay,mirror file ? +No. +You could sit down if you want. +I prefer this cos it makes my back ache. +Okay. +Mirror back ? +No. +And it's off through the directories now. +Works ini . +No. +Works Alarm . +No. +Anything in Works . +No. +P F M . +No. +These are all my diary files, P F M. +So that's another no. +Anything in P F M +Oh wait a minute perhaps it was on the A drive. +Perhaps it was. +It's not P F M. +Not that. +Or that. +Or that. +No. +Saying no. +try the A drive is that okay? +Well I'll try the A drive. +Erm I don't know how Ferret works on the A drive. +Oh I've used it on the A drive before. +Is there a copy of Ferret on that? +I don't know. +I don't know on that . +Oh okay I've got an idea how to use Ferret I think. +Carry on. +Right. +So if you change to the A drive. +Erm just A colon. +Oh. +Right and now if you type, I don't know where Ferret is. +Erm try, try, try Ferret and today's date. +Ferret space today's date and see if it can find anything. +Right erm version of Ferret okay. +So let it go. +Let's look it up on C drive. +Erm no we don't want that so just keep saying no. +Or you can do control and C and it'll finish it off. +Hold down control, press C, and that interrupts the batch file. +Right I will have a little look, do you want to have a little look? +I'll have a look. +On the A drive D I R. +Oh dear.? +No backslash I'm sorry slash I'm sorry about that. +D I R slash S, which gives you sub-directories. +Yeah. +Erm slash O minus D. +That one should be O not zero. +Slash order minus D, which is reverse date order. +Okay. +Erm slash P. +So it'll pause and show it on the screen. +Okay see what that finds. +Anything written today? +You're just looking for a date of today. +No +Not there. +nothing on there. +Okay. +Nothing there, they're all twenty firsts. +?No nothing on there. +. Anything there on the mon +There's one, Sarah mum. +That's the one. +So you are in C S U +done that. +Hang on, hang on. +You are on the A drive. +That's why we couldn't find it on C drive. +Ah yeah that, sorry about that +And it's in C S U large and it's +Yes. +called Sarah dot mum. +Yeah. +So press any key to continue just to finish that out. +Finish that off. +And then, if Sarah'd like to go back into WordPerfect, you find her file which is in A colon backslash C S U backslash large Sarah dot mum. +Okay? +So if you'd like to move out of the seat, Sarah can come and find her own file. +You don't W P from there. +Do we? +You're still on the A drive. +No that's what I want I'm tired now. +I can tell that, you were tired before. +Mm so am I, my eyes are killing me. +Right F five. +What does that do? +Tell her what it does. +Brings up your list of files. +All the files that you've got on the A drive. +Ah. +Which is the floppy disk which is in there. +We weren't working on the hard drive. +Right if you have a look at what has come up on the screen, on the screen. +You got C S U. +So if you end +right backslash'll take away those stars. +Type in large. +Hang on can I just interrupt here? +You're on the C drive. +Oh +Oops. +Sorry. +Erm get out of that. +Okay. +Right. +Okay let's get out of that. +Now hang on you're, you're there. +I'm not. +Yes you're in the current directory. +Erm +I'm on the C drive. +Yes well go up to the parent. +Right now +And again. +where the, where the, where it is, where the cursor is at the moment, press delete to get rid of the C. +And then type A to replace it. +And now press enter and you'll get a directory of what's on the A, there it is, the A drive's chuntering away. +Right. +Now you want to go into the C S U directory, which is highlighted. +So you just press enter. +So you just press enter. +I say return sometimes +Mm. +And again. +Ah okay. +You have to do everything twice in this. +Ah well. +Now you want to bring your cursor down till it points to March. +And enter. +Any intelligent word processor you could type M and it would whiz down to the March. +Right. +Now +Now we have to press enter again. +Yeah. +I, well yeah okay. +And now +There we are Sarah. +you've got one called Sarah dot mum. +And that's the back +Which you and you've given it an extra name of mumsy S L P. +Right and you can load that file. +You've also got a back-up file called Sarah dot P K shriek. +Which it saves just in case we had any accidents, and lost any of our files anywhere. +So if you'd like to bring it down to mumsy sleep. +With the cursor key. +That's it and, and enter +And then enter. +To load that file. +But that doesn't load it, that just has a look doesn't it? +That just looks. +Now that tells you that's, is that the right one? +Is it +Yes. +a letter? +Yes. +Right okay. +So escape. +Es escape. +To get you out of that. +Now R for retrieve. +retrieve your file. +There. +And now you can try and print it. +Can you remember +can you remember the +Remember how to print things? +finished it. +Oh haven't you? +Doesn't matter we'll just try, we'll just do a little +right okay right okay. +We're testing the printer at the moment. +What do we do to print? +We press F one F one. +F one. +F one. +F one. +And then up there +And press +to see which one to print. +F seven. +Right. +No shift F seven. +Right. +Top one is control, the next one is alt +That's your control key +and that one is shift. +Yeah. +which you mustn't touch unless you're very sure of what you're doing. +Okay. +The control key. +So so that, that one is print F seven. +So first of all enter to get out of help, and remember that you want +Cos you're in help. +shift F seven. +So you press shift F seven and +And +you press two for page. +No P for page even. +I do two. +So we'll get into +We've got lots of letters. +We've got lots of letters. +We'll get into the +Print set-up. +print set-up. +Right. +F seven. +And again. +No. +Oh. +Okay try. +And again. +Okay and again. +Enter. +And again. +Oh yes. +Yeah good girl. +Erm +Ooh ah I've just So what are we doing? +I don't know but I'm getting pretty fed up with this. +Okay well we're supposed to be getting into selecting the printer. +You seem to be looking for a file, and you should be selecting +I'm, it's a very, I'm not used to this set-up here and I, I'm +There's very little difference in what you're doing now. +Well there is a fair bit John because I don't seem to have all this round about way at work to be honest with you. +Well. +You don't do it properly at work. +Well I'm used to it now. +So that's the way I like it. +Okay. +Retrieve. +And that's right. +Right. +Now +F seven. +you want to set up the printer. +Okay? +Right now press +Select printer. +Is that what you mean? +Right so press S for select printer. +And we're on an H P Laserjet Two D for some reason. +Well that's the one I've got at work you see. +Right +Right so +which is this is not an H P Laserjet Two D. +That's not a laser printer. +It's picking up its printer driver from your disk which you had in which +Yeah. +is why we're having a lot of problems with this. +Alright okay. +So if we set your disk. +Now before you do anything, if we set set it to pick up the Panasonic K X P Eleven Twenty Four +Mhm. +from there, +Mm. +it'll muck up your disk for work. +And when you try and print out on your H P Laserjet Two D +Oh that's right. +You will get rubbish coming out like this. +That's right. +So what I suggest is that we +We copy it. +copy that file that we've got loaded. +So don't bother about selecting printer. +Let's leave +Leave it on the Laserjet. +the printer there, as it is. +And we'll escape from that okay? +We'll escape from that, and we won't do anything. +We've got the file ready now. +So let's save it. +On the C drive. +Okay? +Yeah. +And then we'll print it from the C drive with WordPerfect loaded from the C drive. +Cos when you loaded this you were in the A drive. +Yeah okay. +Okay. +So save your file +I'm glad you know . +Save your file again. +Okay. +Right so F seven +F seven or I do F ten. +Right. +One document named mumsy yes? +F ten again? +No just enter. +No just enter. +It's asking you for a type. +S L P. +Enter. +Enter. +Just enter. +Document to be saved as ? +Now don't save it yet. +Saved. +Now delete that, delete that A. +Not a backspace delete but a delete. +And +C. +And enter. +Well that was quick it saved it on the C drive. +That's very quickly it went on to the hard +Now. +Right yeah. +disk that's in there. +Yeah. +So come out of WordPerfect now. +F seven. +Save document ? +No. +Save document ? +No. +Exit WordPerfect ? +Yes. +You said no. +You have to read what's at the bottom. +So do F seven again. +Okay and read what's at the bottom. +Okay save document ? +No. +Okay. +And we come out of WordPerfect now. +So. +Yes. +You want to exit WordPerfect. +Y. +Y for yes and why not? +And that comes out of that. +Now we take that floppy out. +Yes. +And change to the C drive so if you type C col +C D. +C colon. +Oh. +C colon. +On the next line or +Just no C colon. +No just there. +All one line. +Shift that's two dots. +Oh right. +That one's two dots +Right. +Enter. +Enter. +We're on the C drive. +C D C D backslash. +C D. +C D backslash. +Backslash. +No. +Backslash is bottom left. +No backslash that's that. +Oh right yeah. +Okay? +And enter. +Enter. +And now have a look at your prompt, and we're on the C drive, and we're in the root directory. +. +I do, I know I sends tingles down your spine. +Now if you'd like to type If you jus just carry on don't, don't mind us this often happens. +Yeah. +If you, if you 'd like to type W P, for we're perfect. +Or something like that. +Yeah enter. +And enter. +You never know what'll happen. +Beach ball beach ball Now what's the date? +Please check date. +It is, if it is wrong hold down and press C. +Hold down control and press . +Now is the date correct? +Yes. +Okay just press enter or space or any key. +And off it'll go and you're in WordPerfect. +Right. +Now we've gone to a blue screen. +Right. +So you load your file. +F one F one. +F one F one. +And which of those will load your +F seven. +File for you? +F five. +F five sorry. +F five. +Shift or no shift? +Just +F five. +Well first of all, first of all you're in you're +Press enter to s exit help. +Right. +Now F five. +It gives you a list of files. +This time . +Enter. +Now it's going to give you a list of the files in C +C. +colon +Right yeah. +backslash C S U. +Which is what you want. +Go down to large. +Yeah. +Yeah. +Down to large. +See if she's in and +Enter. +and sorry no and retrieve. +If you enter +You'll just get to look at the document you can't work +Oh right +on it or anything. +So R for retrieve. +Oh I know because there's more to, there's files in it. +And you have to come into it. +There you go. +Right go down to mum. +Go down to mum. +Now R. +R. +Now end. +And now you can +And now +F one F one to see how you print. +And what do you use to print? +Erm shh enter to get out of help. +Okay +Yes. +well first of all before you get there +Well shh shush let her speak. +Enter to get out of help. +Yes. +And then shift and F seven. +Good girl. +Excellent. +And then you go to pa +Two. +Two. +Page two. +Oh page sorry yes. +Much easier to remember than two. +the figures. +Ooh. +And we're still not printing. +I would think that your rubbishy version of WordPerfect is thinking it's an H P Laserjet. +Yeah. +Right. +So if you'd like to get out, of come out of Word oh first of all +I think I'd better go and check the chicken now. +reset, let's select printer. +So F one F one to tell us what we use to select the printer. +Do you know my hot. +Which is the +Mm so's mine actually. +Shift F seven. +So enter to get out of help. +Shift F seven. +And select printer. +And select printer. +Because this has all been mucked up too. +This +Right. +also thinks it's an H P Laserjet Two D now. +So let's set that. +Bring it down a bit to a Panasonic K X P Eleven Twenty Four +Yeah. +and enter. +Right it should now +page +and now if you try and page it might work. +I don't know.. +Ah there we are. +Now it's all because somebody has been messing about with . +Wasn't me. +All that messing about getting the printer to change was, came from not knowing where you are. +That's enough of that. +Yeah. +So that works. +As long as we know now that it works. +That works. +Erm +I want to finish off the letter now anyway. +The formatting looks a bit erm a bit silly doesn't it? +So we'd better, we'd better sort that out a bit. +Erm first of all we'll get this ready for head of the form. +So we'll just use the line feed one at a time. +Until it comes up to the next page. +And we want that, there's the head of the page. +We want that just about on the black line. +Right. +At the bottom of the black . +So just there. +Right. +And we put that in cos otherwise that'll come down and get jammed in the printer head. +Right. +Now at the moment it's still got its headed form set, up here somewhere. +So switch the printer off. +And when you switch the printer back on, wherever it is when it's switched on, it thinks that's the head of the form. +That's the top of the piece of paper. +Right. +So switch it on again now. +And next time you print it should think it's a K X P Eleven Twenty Four and it should think it's at head of form and print everything out beautifully. +So I can finish off the, I want to finish off the letter now. +Now on that letter how was it printing out? +You've got margins set at looks like one point three inches on the left and one inch on the +Yeah. +That's okay. +Erm have you put tabs in here or spaces? +Erm +If you do F eleven it'll show all the characters. +It shows you what you've got here. +You've got hard returns, soft returns soft returns so you've got spaces in here. +it makes it up like +Right, I'm off to bed +'Night +Goodnight +Oh he's so childish +sleepy tight +Don't let the beddy buggies bity +Don't let the beddy buggies bite you +Personally I think you're flipping barmy +Perhaps we are +Oh does my voice sound funny on there though, oh +er +What? +Just +Ah I bet they do though if it's the same people that's operating, they're going round murdering people +Serial killers in Lincoln +Well my only sunshine +Oh I +Ruby Wax pain in the backside +I can't +Ruby Wax +Oh I like her +I'm off to bed +What's my jealousy? +Jealous you greedy pig +I am +I've just become somebody dumb +No you haven't +What are you holding it for? +because +against me +Why don't you put it in your pocket? +Cos it won't make any noise then +Pick it up, stick it on your pocket +No +like so, see +Oh how special does that look? +On your tie +No, I'm not sticking it on my tie +Can't we have a big conversation, please, juice and, oh +and there's third years there, no, I'm not, no, I refuse +You refuse, oh I want it +I've got to go down to graphics +Let's go +you did promise +I did promise yeah +Anyway I've got a question, I'm asking about the, the availability of a green spray can +Hiya Ally +ah you take the piss so bad +Mm, nice bum +What +I think I'm going to elope +How's that for excitement, I can see, I can tell +don't be silly +squeeze his brief line +Ah +Hi +I'll hold it for you. +Sure I'll be able to come down, I'm not gonna get told off or anything like +Course you're not , I'll just say +Oh who +with Claire? nobody +Nobody +see +so, I do, you're not going to get killed, I just say Mr you threatening Mike and he'll go no Helen because I'm incredible scared of you and I'll go I know you are +I bet he doesn't, is Edward doing Adidas? +No only me +she's designing er swimming costumes +Oh is she? +Let me see yours +er what, what, what +Have you still not done anything? +Well I've done my introduction +That's it that's all she's done +and analysis and that's it +Well done Helena there's loads there isn't there just so much +Where's that that bit you did on erm +That one little, oh, how special +they're not even +They're not supposed to be +Oh good +they're suppose to be like that, that's my best bit that I'm doing well +Helena +Yeah +do you think we're gonna do some work today? +I suppose, I better do +not at all +Oh sorry I slipped +Oh, oh +What was Christian, was Christian a great help was he? +He was +I liked the bit when you were going I don't know what to do +I haven't got a clue what to do +do what we do, just walk away +Go whoopsy-daisy, bye then +right I'm going down to graphics +well so I like school work course we're not gonna get done, got Mr under my thumb +Where we doing it? +Pardon, graphics room, what other room? +lock the door to let themselves in, so obviously we don't want anybody in here. +OK +Alright? +Oh what a shame I won't be able to do my homework, watch me weep what it's +glue and stuff, that's all +It's all the grease and metal and, ooh grime +Oh no what a shame I won't be able to do any work, oh boo hoo I am so upset about that +Now what you gonna do then, what you gonna do, have you got one more lesson? +I've got one more lesson this afternoon +Yeah, but you ain't gonna do loads in one lesson are you? +Yeah, I'll be able to finish my one design +Ooh one design +that, that one with the lines on, I've got to spray that green +Why? +I thought you were supposed to be designing a +I am, that's the design to go on it I'm gonna have to go and put it back now +Is it locked, no they go out to the pub on a Friday +Oh do they? +Yeah +Well dear me what a shame +I don't know +teachers eh, who'd have them? +I can't answer that +so er, what's this design then? +That's what I'm doing, except that it's not gonna look like that any more +I like the arms on the t-shirts +Well of course it's filling, just a quick sketch isn't it? +Yes +I mean you know I can't draw +Wonderful, what does that say? +What's it supposed to say? +Wimbledon +Oh that's brill, I must admit that's really good, OK +No it isn't it's rubbish +Don't let me mock you, it's really good +It's pathetic and you know it +No, no, no I didn't say +can I just have a quick look at your worse +Where'd you stick this? +Stick it in my, your losing my bits of paper, all my importantly file bits of +Oh wow! +What a hairstyle +I know it's cool isn't it? +I've got to go and do some work +Have you, why? +Why? +only a folder +A folder, oh +Yeah +no it isn't, he, he said that's rubbish oh did you hear about oh yes you were there when we put hair +In her shoes +and she put them on? +Yeah +And she, she had a right go at me yesterday, right, er, this afternoon she goes, oh I took it out before I put me shoe, me foot in it, killjoy +She probably didn't +What's a matter with that, I think it's good +I know +except for the knees +What? +The knees are a bit erm +I'm sorry, I'm sorry I'm not a bubbling Picasso +It's erm, yes, actually the skirt's not, oh well it's your drawing, I like the, you've got the shoulders and the head right, I can never do that, I could never get the portions right +give me just a little more time +that's only what I've written in my analysis and that +You haven't done nothing yet, so how can you analyze it? +Oh +Is it analy analyzing it? +Mm, where do I stick this now Helena? +Put it back in my folder. +Did you have a nice game of football? +Did you have a nice game of football did you? +Can we join you, can we? +We're real demons with the goal we are +Excuse me, I am +no cos I'm not into volleys are we, we'll tackle them +breaking their legs and kicking them in their bollo I mean balls, in the, in the, in the +Testicle area +Let's go and sit down in the thing +Are we? +Ah, I don't think I could, you know +where you going? +no, come on +oh no, it's nice and quiet, oh hello sorry but we're not taping this conversation or anything. +It's come off actually Helena +Who's is it? +Is it? +Oh it's mine, it's mine +It's not hers really, let's have a look +Ah +Isn't it wonderful +you should hide it a bit more than that +Well you can't really, but no one notices, but I'm not doing it on purpose, it's for a survey, I get twenty five pounds for, mm, watch me weep +Mm, and what do you do on the survey? +Just record my conversations to everyone +Why? +I'm doing a survey +Who? +This er dictionary company +I don't believe you +A dictionary company? +You don't buy a dictionary company +Where do you think it's coming from +Are they gonna, are they gonna hear this now? +No they're not +They are +I thought it was +they are honestly aren't they? +Oh erm, where did you +I am doing this honestly +where did you see this then in a magazine or something? +No, my, they came round to my house +honestly I swear it on my mother's grave +it's not it's my Walkman, they gave me a Walkman, they gave me twenty tapes, I'm not joking +Let me have a look at this Walkman +I don't believe you had +Smell of garlic? +Might be my +on me sandwiches +No it's not +I've just had a Polo all they're looking at is like what kind of accents you talk in +Oh god they've got a great big problem with Helena then +and what kind of +Oh no +and what kind of words like different people use +At the end of the tape you only get, I think you really needed +Did she send for you? +No she said +see you, bye +Bye +It's not on again is it? +Yeah smell of garlic it might be my cheese and onion sandwiches +No it's not cheese and garlic +I've just had a Polo, do you want one? +No thanks +Stop putting it on Helena +no I'm not +I told you, you never get into drama school +We are now in the changing rooms, it's really boring +there's lots of smelly stuff like +Iona's bag +a pair of knickers +They're not knickers it's a flipping +Cami +camisole, Iona's knickers, oh yeah she's gonna leave her knickers on the floor isn't she? +Shall I put some wet in that? +about +about this bra top thing she's got and how it's got a hole in it and she was trying to think back how it got this hole in it and she remembered that Mark put his fingers through it +Andy +No it was Mark , I can remember it happening when she +what +she can't force him +I went out with him +he does, he looks just like him. +Emma went out with him for about two months +Did she? +no +Did I see him when we went to the fair, I see at the +and with those boys +Blonde one +I don't know to tell you the truth +Was Mark there? +Was Mark there? +I think so, I think he was there yes he was, yeah he was +he was the tall blonde one +no they haven't, I'm just gonna, I don't care, any more +what? +Who's it from? +Erm +I'm sweating like anything +especially if it's tighter +Oh +She better not pull it anyway, I, I, I was +I asked three teachers where she was and they said she wasn't in +and they didn't know where she was +went to staff room and nobody knew he was +She went to the staff room, they said she wasn't in the staff room, but then she left +Mrs anywhere she went, who's Mrs +Yeah +I've got two English teachers today +you're not fat +I am +You're not +Oh I know it's huge +I am, it's grotesque isn't it? +Mm +I'm obese +Do you want to know why I'm wearing two pairs of knickers because +she wets herself +She won't tell us the truth, but I know it, she wets herself, she doesn't want it to show on the chairs in school +incontinent +I think that's so +Oh no, our dog needs one of them +my dog's incontinent +I can't think straight, I really can't +Oh yeah, huge +you know, is it +you walk in and there's a few +you know the pub +yeah, you, right by Next, the bottom entrance to Next, there's a sports shop there +Oh I know it +I searched for Christmas and I wanted it +you got it? +Anybody else? +hello +What's that, is that a microphone? +Yeah +Why? +Taping everybody's conversation +eh, oh, they've just all fallen to pieces, here you can have the rest +Compilation what? +Ah gee +Compilation +I've got about two here +I'm taping it now +Shit +I am +Why are you? +A survey thing +Are you being serious? +Yeah +no she's not +you can't show this because I didn't put a bra on +she's got a microphone on her blazer +She has +I have, yes it is +Testing, testing three, four, five +I can't count +rewind it, let's have a listen +I ain't got the headphones +I don't believe you +It is +let's have a look +OK this conversation was between Alison Nina, Helena, Caroline and somebody who is unknown, OK +What you gonna do? +Ask her for it I am, she's alright, she's +In very small doses +Yeah, she's always been alright with me, you know, so I can't say about anybody else, I mean she's already, she's always been really nice to me, but like them people she goes around, well she used to go around with Lisa and Vicky and all that lot and when she used to go around with them she used to be bitching them off behind their back and going oh you're my best friend, to their faces. +It's like me and you really, huh, +I know I bitch by you +I'm saying how much I hate you, just all the time. +I suppose it's a bit like me and Joanne really I mean I'm bit er nasty to her behind her back really, only to her +Yeah +not anybody else about her +she's alright actually, sometimes she just aggravates me though +mind you I don't know her though +No +I mean she's a, she's a nice enough person but she just gets in a strop so easily, you, you know +Maybe she needs to grow up a bit more +Yeah probably I think she'll always be like it though, cos her mum's just the same, she's just like her mum, you know her mum got in a strop every day because she couldn't go round, down the +club and have a fag, her mum's given up smoking, so Joanne's really worried now oh +silly old Jo +mm +I know someone who had that done and then later on they had their voice box taken out, cos he had cancer of the throat, ooh, +oh they cut them out +why? +Because they can't speak +Yeah, he couldn't speak after that +no I +if I were you, that is just +use them as leggings, leggings with a hole in, that's a good idea +oh no way, that is +Are all the girls outside? +Aha +Yeah they've all gone to +yeah see you +don't +tight, you'll rip them. +Honestly I went like that on a pair +are so thick that it +Oh god, having problems putting a pair of tights on +Are they a nice colour? +What colour are those? +Nearly black +Erm nearly black +Who'd wear +God knows, my mum +no they're not +Oh that's nice +they look alright on me +you wouldn't have to worry about, you wouldn't have to worry about trousers or skirts or legs +You'll probably wear +or something stupid like that +they look nice +heck, oh my knees face each other, it's sick +So do mine +no it isn't, we +to it anyway +Spread out +just look at that, got bow legs, isn't it awful? +You've been playing too much football +I have not +you're born with rickets +mine are too thin at the ankle, looks sick +oh yeah, yes you have +don't bow +Yeah but they're fat, they're horrible, they are, they're all purple at the ankle, not like she's got thin mm +and a tidy pull oh I'll have just a quick go of it +did he, you don't pull them if you've got a, a hole in already because that's death +cos you see like +that +not like, like with that one +there you see I've just cured that one look, that one with +Mm, can't, I dunno +What? +we'd better go +Mind me shoe +Don't be so nasty +I'm sorry +Am I gonna get any backup here? +What else do you want? +Do you want a fishburger or do you want an egg? +Er oh decisions, a fishburger please. +A fishburger, righty +Oh Jo +can have a bit of a party, bit of a rave died and he got to heaven +Yeah +Erin, Erin and Brian stuck up again today +Oh did they? +it was really funny +Mine's not very strong +he called her childish +Mm +so she had a bit of a benny it was +Where does +dead funny +where does Brian hail from? +Brian? +Yeah +Dunno round here I think +Does he? +not Greenlands, maybe Woodrow South so he probably wouldn't get on too well with someone from +Oh I'm sure that not everybody's +Well she comes out with such a load of claptrap, she don't know what she's talking about most of the time ah, are you and dad gonna buy a box each? +Are you gonna buy a box and I'll get rid of the other two to Joanne and Emma? +No I'll buy a box +Cos I might be able to cart them off to Joanne and Emma to give them to their mum's on Mother's Day +Mm, well you can buy me a box for Mother's Day, that's a good idea innit? +We never buy you anything on Mother's Day, you get a card and be happy with it +Er, well I've decided I want something this year +Oh, I want two presents a year for birthday, christmas and children's day +There isn't one +I've just invented one +Now, well you can't have one, you can't have a children's day cos you don't do anything +Yes we do, we give you all the love and support you need. +Ha. +I was talking about you today in English +Oh goodness +Well they were talking about the eleven plus you see +Oh +and they said whose parents took it? +So I went and he er, and she goes er, and did they both pass? +She was expecting me to say yes, I goes no my mum failed +and er, and, yeah she said but your father liked it did he? +And I goes no he hated it, he used to get detention every day for not wearing his cap he hated it and he didn't do any work. +Cos she was expecting me to trot out something like, yes both my parents went to grammar school like everybody else whose parents went, you know, they were all saying, yes my parents went to grammar school and they got these and these have got these qualifications and everything, I couldn't believe it though, there's a load of people in our class and like you know, all the parents are all these things and they're not exactly brilliant, the children +Mm +you know, like Olivia, er, both her parents are teachers and all this business +Mm +er, you know she's not +they don't have any time +she's not much to shout about , you know, intelligence-wise +Who was that with Miss ? +mum had failed, but she said why? +I goes well all the, all the questions were matters science and she weren't any good at that +Would, would, would erm, grandma and granddad let you go anyway? +Would they of let you go if you'd passed? +Oh yeah course they would of done +Well some p , parents didn't like it did they? +Didn't want their children to go to it +No, well it was a fixed system anyway +Yeah +if you were well to do, you, you went I mean the the grammar schools, in the grammar school like your dad went to I mean it was, it was a really, you know it was a grammar school, it wasn't anything like it is now. +Well, there was two grammar schools in Lincoln though weren't there? +Well there was the City school and the Lincoln school +The Lincoln school +The Lincoln school was, is by the hospital +weren't, weren't there a girls? +There was the, the, the Chri , Christ Hospital which was the girls high school +Weren't there, weren't there another boys and girls one or whatever, or were there just the boys +No there was just +and the girls? +no there was one girls school which was Christ Hospital +Yeah +which was up Lindon Hill +Mm +and there was the City school which was on Monk's Road, and there was the Lincoln school which was on Brambury Road which is +Where was +now Christ Hospital +Yeah, where was Christ Hospital then? +Christ Hospital was on Lindon Hill +Where? +Christ Hospital was +Where the old, where the college is now that art college? +Yeah, you know, half way up Lindon Hill there's three stone steps +Yeah +and you went up there and there's them building sort of on the top isn't there +Yeah +that piece, and so you start go up this building across, and it's like it's, it's the school there +Right +and that's Christ Hospital, or was +Or was +and that was the girls grammar school and then there was the City school where your dad went and there was the Lincoln school +Was that co-ed? +that come out at Bram , Brambury Road, what? +Was it boys and girls? +No, no, there was the girls school and there was the two boys school +That's a bit unfair +There wasn't another grammar, there wasn't another girls grammar school, oh what was Spring Hill? +Oh great, I don't know, Spring Hill was something +Girls? +Yeah, it was a, yeah Spring Hill was a grammar school, it was a girls grammar school +Oh +Yeah because erm, poor thingy, the girl I went to school with she went on to Spring Hill when she was fifteen, see you could go on to grammar school when you were fifteen then as well as going at eleven +Yeah +if you passed, if you failed the eleven plus and if you were clever enough, you could take an exam, like an entry exam to go, it's sort of if you improve from eleven to fifteen you could take an entry exam to go into grammar school then, so that you could take your G C E's +Like erm, but, like Miss says some of the stuff on it was so rubbish, I mean like, there was somebody she knew, who their son failed the eleven plus twice and now they've got their P H D +Yeah, mm +they failed, but they failed their eleven plus twice +Mm +but now they've got their P H D +Mm, mm +you know, it's so stupid innit? +It's too young an age which to, erm +Assess like that +judge , judge people and, and, and, split them like that +Mm +Too young. +I mean it might be alright for the more intelligent people or whatever, cos they get the best teachers then don't they? +But I mean for the other people it's just, it's just rejection innit, you're not good enough +Well I'm not stupid , I mean I wasn't stu , when I was at the junior schools in the country I wasn't stupid +No +but I went from there straight to there taking me eleven plus +Yeah +I never had any practice at anything or, and I should imagine they did, I don't know, I don't know how it worked +Yeah +but I never had anything, I just went from one to the another, and I had to take it in the hall one day and I wasn't, I was never very good at maths anyway, not that kind of maths. +Not algebra oh we had this, we +I could never remember how to do them, I mean if somebody, if someone sat with me and explained it to me and then I, and then I could do it, I would do +Yeah +it then for that lesson, but after that I couldn't remember again how to do it +That's, that's just like me that is, if I get into a rhythm and someone gives er, I can do it then, but if I just sit on a page, I think oh how do you do that? +Mm, I can never remember the formulas, like your dad said formula for such and such a thing is so and so and that, but I could never remember them so I was no good then, because I couldn't remember it +Mm, them nice +and then there was St Joseph's which was private +Mm mm there was only one in Redditch +What grammar school? +Where was that? +Ulster grammar +Where? +Ulster +Ulster , Ulster +Ulster +no, that's in Ireland Ulster +Ulster +Ulster's in Ireland +Ulster erm +That's nowhere near Greenwich +No, but it's where all the +went but you ain't good enough +No, I'm afraid I'm er was a bit thick +If you weren't, you went to Dudley High +I was good at English history, sport +You ought to try taking some of them, honestly they're so easy the exams are, like history, ah, talk about easy, spartan erm, you could G C S E, P E mum +I don't think I could now I could of done then probably +You remind me of bit, eh, you're like a bit what Joanne's like, except Joanne's better at maths but she's not very good at English, like when they were doing Animal Farm, I had to explain that it was a parody of the Russian revolution and everything and she just sat there with her mouth open. +What did she go to see the other day that she reckon was a load of rubbish? +Duke of Duke of thingy, it was er on at the Palace it was erm Duke of, there was an advert for it in the paper the other day +Mm +she didn't know it was an opera you see +Oh it was an opera was it? +Yeah +and I didn't like to say anything +What did she go from school? +Yeah oh +I should imagine Joanne not +erm, but, you see, they would of been the most aggravating little gits there, because as soon as they found out, they all started messing about then, for three hours it was on, could you imagine sitting in there with them lot for three hours? +What about the teachers? +I would of chucked them out and Mrs +yes, but mum, you're not a teacher at the Leeds High +Mm +If you were it probably be a bit different than it actually is dad said to me once that if he, that if he'd like been in charge of it we'd of gone to the Leeds and not St Augustine's +Yeah he would of been cos he was, he was, he was on about that, erm the +said to him about it when we first came and er, he said about when, when we were on about sending and I don't, they're going to a Catholic school and he says oh the Catholic schools around here aren't very good and the, the Leeds and that are the best +Yeah well he's all in with that isn't he? +What a load of rubbish +He's, he's the flipping governor isn't he? +He's one of the governors +Where? +Up there +What at the Leeds, not at the Leeds he's at Dingleside +Well he's at the Dingleside but he's involved with the P T A there +Oh well +and he's bound to bull up his own place isn't he? +I mean no one 's gonna say oh yes my school's the best +I don't think so, I don't, they're too, they're too big +What? +that's what I don't like about it +It's not, it's no bigger than our school +Isn't it? +No +It's not got the same discipline +It's about the sa , well it's might, just a little bit bigger than our school, about another hundred or something, but that's, that's a drop in the ocean when you've got seven hundred there that's like one in each class or something you know, extra +Still there's no discipline +No discipline ah, no discipline +and er, we were like, we was on about, you know like we were talking about the education system and everything in English and you know I told you they were on about people changing at eleven and everyone else in the class wanted the thirteen system except me, it's only cos what they're used to +Oh yes what they're used to, what they always, yeah, I know +but I mean, but like I said, I said, I mean, I went, I went to the like I changed then, I mean to be quite honest I didn't like it, I didn't like it +What the same people in school? +no I didn't , I never liked it, whether that was because I knew we weren't gonna be there, or, you know, I just, I was only there six months +Mm you would of done eventually, you would of got in alright, once you were settled and that +I, you know, I just I would of been alright if it was a bit more organised I don't +I think +know it never seemed quite very organised +they sent it back, I think, I thought the twelve was, was quite good actually, I thought the twelve when they went up at twelve, but then when they changed it back to the junior and infants it was the elev , the eleven and it was a bit, I think it, you know eleven might be perhaps too young, I think twelve is a reasonable +Mm +age. +But you see I was thrown from one teacher all the time Miss all the time +Yeah to that +to, to German , French, Latin +Yeah +er, you know proper algebra and all that kind of stuff and it, and it was, I think I would of been better if I had of gone to Our Ladies cos I don't +Well I don't know I mean it would of still been the same if you'd of gone to Our Ladies, it would of still been one, one +One teacher +Yeah +was there? +Yeah I think so +I know, but +yeah because they were the only one who would +didn't we? +I know, but that, at St. Hughes you're stuck in a little rut aren't you? +I mean +Well, the trouble is you got to be the eldest and you were the eldest for such a long time +You mean we were the eldest for five years there +Yeah because you go to be the eldest and then just at the time you should of gone on and become the youngest, it changed so you were the eldest all the time +Yeah +and that made the difference I think, that probably made the difference +That particularly didn't bother me it was the regime, the sudden change in the regime +Yeah +you know I think I would of got used to it +Oh I +but you know. +I feel surprised that I put, how thick was she? +What? +No, well you're not thick are you? +So this is where you two get all this +what? +supposedly cleverness +Supposedly, when I, when I told Nicola the other day that you reckon that I don't do enough work, she says cor blimey she was shocked she was, shocked oh do it, do it as near to the microphone as you can mum +What she doesn't want does she +I don't think er, I don't think you do do work, enough work, either of you really I mean if I sat an eleven plus today, by what, if they ever brought it back, it'll be a lot different than what it was then +I +it'd be easy wouldn't it? +It wouldn't of been easier +Well it would, it would of, it'd be easier, I think it would +Not to everybody it wouldn't +Well I think, I think, I think to be honest they've all got easier +I'd say they'd got harder, you should see some of the things we do in maths mum, it's not easy +No I know that , that's it's not easier now, you know, but I think er that would be easier wouldn't it? +You know, I mean you, the problem with you and dad is, cos you never got particularly involved with it you don't, you don't know exactly what's happening at school, you don't know what we do. +Well I've never got particularly involved with this school, I got involved with the other schools +I know, but, mum that, that was, that was five years ago, I mean I've moved on a great deal since then +Oh yeah, I know it's not, no I know it's not easy, I don't try to make out it's easy +I mean some, some of them are what, what I would deem as fairly easy, I mean I find history easy, but not everyone does +Oh no, I know that, I know that I mean some people find some things easy, some people find some things hard, don't they? +But I mean that's er, a fact of life +You know, but I mean, there's no way easy, especially the science and maths equals I times R, voltage and resistance in electricity and magnesium +what? +but er, that fibbing git Tim right he's got a locker next to me, and he's got velcro on his coat and if I'm standing at my locker and he takes his coat out of, out of his locker, it always flipping pull my tights with the velcro +Mm +that's the third time he's done it, I had such a go at him +You'll have to charge him +I'll have to I had a bit of major benny actually ha it was rather shocking wasn't it? +Mm +Not that I ever have major bennies or anything +No, no +I hadn't had a benny for a few days actually +Oh +I'm doing well thought I died and gone to heaven I don't like plain chocolate it's horrible +Shit +take a +pardon? +Nothing, sarky remark,on my own just +Ha, there was this girl in the club last night and somebody shouted at her and she went what? +Oh dear I said to your dad Jesus +Ladylike +as common as muck what she goes +I thought I could give dad some of these and then eat them all myself +Mm +for his birthday +Well why not, I don't think that'll go down very well +Don't you? +No +Well I'm really shocked mum, I was really going to do it honest +Mm, I don't think so Helena Rosanne +Eh what you do to me all my +chuck me in there, chuck me in the closet hit me with your rhythm stick, hit me hard and hit me quick +Hit me, hit me what's the time six o'clock isn't it? +What? +Six o'clock +What's six o'clock? +The time +it's half six +Oh half six that was it yeah +That's what it said on his little card +Yes we thought he was going to somewhere else at six o'clock +Nicola didn't believe me when I told her she thought I was playing a joke +What? +When I told her about this +Didn't she? +I goes er, oh I'm recording it for this thing, she goes oh yeah my beard, ha, I was going I am, ha, but she didn't believe me, can I have some sauce please? +There was definitely no chance of a walk that day, bit of Jayne Eyre there for you +Mm +Oops, that's what I call an honourary delight this is +Mhm indeed +What? +Indeed +Indeed what exciting lessons did you have to do? +Nothing too exciting +Well I had er, oh, what did I have? +Something P E, maths, English and graphics, science, science, maths, English and graphic +How comes you're so, you're so interested in the eleven plus and everything? +We're having a discussion about erm, whether it should be brought back +Oh +I said definitely not, cos it makes rejects of people in society, therefore a what +which they all do in my class, cos they're all thick I couldn't believe it right +Well they're all supposedly got intelligent parents by the sou , by the sound of things +Oh not all of them, I was sat, I, I was sat there +All thick like me +and I went who's applying to go on to university or education after eighteen, so I put up my hand, turned round and flipping Stuart and Danny had put their hands up and I just went oh god, they're gonna do really well and Terry, and Terry, we're talking Terry, Terry who hasn't got a brain cell to rub together +What, er, mm, he's in your class ain't he? +so ah that boy, this is the one who said I think we should be allowed to hit girls +he supposedly, he, two short planks does not describe this boy, even Miss hates him that was it, she, we were having this discussion right in education, she goes, are you cynical about education Terry, he goes, no, he goes, oh she goes why? +He goes I don't know what cynical means +I said, ah no and everyone in the class just cracked up sometimes you wonder, you wonder whether he does it on purpose he must do it on purpose, no one can be that thick +How many was thinking of going on? +Ninety five per cent +Yeah, oh +but erm like Vicky who's got, in her English folder, this is Vicky Vicky, she's got in her literature she's got nine A's and one B and in her other I don't know what she's got, ten A's probably, mm she's not going to, she wants to be a nurse +Oh does she? +and er, like she said aren't you Vicky and she goes no miss, mm, you can't be a nurse till your eighteen +No, no you can't go into student, student +so like, you know, she's gonna stay on, do A levels and then go into it +Mm +because she might as well have some A levels just in case or whatever, but erm you know I, you know she's, you know, I can understand that actually, she's being quiet sensible about it she said there's nothing else I want to do and I might as well do something that I enjoy, you know, you've only got one life haven't you when it comes down to it? +Well if that's what she wants to do, that's what she wants to do, innit? +Mm, like, her dad says to her why don't you be a doctor and she, but she don't want to, you know, she wants to be in a hospital and that, she don't want to end up in general practice +Well she doesn't necessarily end up in general practice does she? +No, but +But I mean for the first year she won't be in, if she goes into student, she'll be in college +I know, but it won't take as long for her to get there as it would if she becomes a doctor +Oh no, three years ain't it a student? +Mm +But then you get on hand experience right hands on I should say, not on hand +but erm +learning how to clean pot pa , er bed pans and make beds and things like that +Clear up sick, that's a favourite job isn't it? +Mm +Yeah, I thought of being that once but I wouldn't mind it in the wards, but I wouldn't want to be in the operating theatre, I don't know why, the blood don't put me off or anything, but +You do have to go into the theatre for so long I think +Mm +but then you can, you can specialize you see, I mean some nurses go into the theatre all the time once they've qualified +Yeah +I think they do have to go in, you have to go into each area +But like, I mean I don't mind the blood or whatever, and if they were doing little things, I could handle it, but like, like on that op , operation that woman was having the other day and they cut her open and they just pulled +Well they do +and that, that, that's the thing that makes me retch, not the cutting, it's when they just pull it apart +Well I know +when it rips ooh, they could of cut it +Well they do cut it +No they cut the skin and then they just pulled it apart +Yes because it's not the like that underneath, if they didn't pull it apart they, they cut down, if they cut down with a knife they could cut into something couldn't they? +Oh, er +It could be dangerous so you, you open up the top and then the other parts the lining +Ah +Yeah but what they ripped was all fat, all her fat, ooh +Yeah, but you see, you've got the, you got all the other things in, down, down, underneath, well I mean if you started going in with a knife and you started cutting them I mean you could cut an artery or anything couldn't you? +Which could be a bit nasty, you know and then she'd say buy a little bag for me, a chick, a chick, a chick, a chickita +who's turn is it tonight? +Oh mine oh, I wish it was David, probably never get +We've seen it on T V +flower +but, I was listening to myself on that +Mm +Oh is my laugh vile or what and my voice +it sounds so idiotic +That's cos you be a country yoke + +That's it running now, the tape and this That's all you get a quiet hum in +Yes. +the background there. +Who's going to start? +Hey? +Who's going to start. +ask a question. +Aye I was just asking really I was just gonna ask, Well were you all born in this house? +No Andy and Ann were born here +Aha. +and Mrs was born in over the river. +That was the farm +Oh yes, I +where our forebears came to +Aha. +in seventeen twenty. +Aha. +So they came from . +Aha. +They Near at any rate. +So that's a long time ago, seventeen twenty. +Yeah. +Two hundred and sixty sixty years is that right? +Yes? +You're quicker than I am. +That's just That's a long time to be You must be the oldest family in do you think. +Pardon? +No. +I think are older. +Really. +They were longer Yes. +Mhm. +The . +But you'd be one of the oldest . +Aye they would be the oldest family. +Aye. +I see. +And s and so wh when did you er who s who built this house or when did you move to this part? +In nineteen +seven. +Nineteen seven. +Nineteen seven. +Just when you and why did you leave ? +Was there +Well there she +didn't +had the two places going you see . +Oh Ii see. +Yes. +You mean you mean you +This place was big until my father took it over and he kept the places going and we still have the two places. +Aha. +But the house at now is ruining I think, is it? +Well it's they're going to sort it out. +Oh that's good. +Mhm +Mr at the Lodge +Aha. +sister in law, +Aha. +She's married and they think they're going to make a holiday home of it just now. +Yes. +But they are beginning to sort it up. +Oh that's good. +Cos I I remember looking at that house years back, you know, when I was a boy walking about you know. +Mhm. +Er and do you remember living there at all or well. +No I was two years when I left there. +Two years +Yes I can't remember anything about it. +No. +But of course I was back and forth. +Oh yes. +Yes. +But that wasn't my father's house until he got married. +Aha. +My grandmother lived just nearby you see in the +Aha. +. +Yes bits of walls. +I think Aha I think know where it is. +Mhm. +Mhm. +I think I know where it +Cos that's where my father was born and brought up in that old house. +Yes. +He never went into the new house until he got married. +And that +Mm. +was in the beginning of eighteen ninety nine. +Aha. +What was your father's name? +John +John . +John . +John . +And who did he marry like? +Well my mother was from North Uist, that's the Hebrides. +Aha. +And erm they got married in eighteen ninety nine. +Aha. +That's a long time ago. +It's a great date though eighteen ninety nine. +She was . +Ah. +from Uist. +Yes. +Ah. +Well what do you know what brought her over this way at all? +She was a housekeeper in +Aha. +with . +Oh I see. +Yes she had her aunt was a widow there at the time when she came to and she just lived about a year. +Aha. +And that's how she met my father you see. +Oh I see. +Oh. +Right. +See. +And obv and that's your your father and mother. +My father and mother Yes. +Aye. +And do you remember them well ? +That's away ba Away back in seventeen +twenty, +Aha. +there were two brothers came. +One took a farm up in the the Brays. +That's a fern way. +Aha. +And then the other brother took +Aha. +over. +Right. +And there's no no from the other brother now is there? +Not now they're all dies out. +That's a shame. +They might be abroad of course cos some of them went abroad I know. +Aha. +But er there's none of them about here. +Oh that's a shame mm. +And my father I think just went to school in the Wintertime. +His father died when he was seven years of age . +Mm yes. +And he was the second oldest of the family. +So he would have had to do quite a lot of work. +So he'd quite a lot of work to do when he was quite young. +Aha. +And he just went to the sc school in the Wintertime. +Oh I see. +So +I think he was two Summers in school. +But apart from that there was just the +In the Winter. +the Winter. +When things would be quieter maybe on the farm . +Mhm. +Yeah exactly. +Mhm. +Right. +And that would that have been school? +Yes. +The same same +N n no no. +It was er that building beside the Free Church. +The old school house. +Yes. +That was the old school house there. +Oh I didn't +The old school school was below +Aha. +and the teacher's house was next door . +Oh I didn't that either. +That's really +That was the Free Church school house. +Right so it was it specifically was +That was the time of the disruption. +When you +Aye y +be have the history of that I don't suppose. +A little bit. +I know a little how. +But it would have been the other school as well? +Yes yes. +The other school was +there. +it was a Church of Scotland school. +I see. +But all those have come out in eighteen forty three at the time of the disruption. +Ah. +To the Free Church +Aha. +where they did build a school for them you see. +Oh I see. +Because it's the churches that run the schools in those days . +I never knew that . +Until about er eighteen seventy two I think . +Aha aha. +And the the school board was born then. +Aha. +Do you Would there have been many people in that school at the time. +Oh I'm sure there would be. +Quite a lot +Because there were a lot of people on the staff at that time. +Aye. +There'd be records somewhere I'm sure of them . +What did my father say? +He remembered when there was fifteen smokes went up here on this . +Fifteen families. +In this one +This one place that we have now. +That's an that's a +Well I was looking at I I was looking at the what do you call that now? +Census +Aha. +for eighteen forty one. +Aha. +And there was forty two people living in . +I eighteen forty one . +Hard to believe, that's amazing. +And today it's three old fogies and a dog. +. +Oh dear. +So other places would be equal to that +Yes. +So if you if you took that up and down there'd be quite a lot. +Yes. +So you may know, there wasn't very many rich people about anyway. +No. +Except the themselves, whether they were rich or not I don't know. +No. +That's the that was the state of affairs +And most of these folk, were they just being farm workers or croppers or +Yes. +That's right. +They'd just be living off the land. +Yes. +There there could be weavers amongst them. +Aha. +And thatchers. +Aha. +Masons. +And masons. +Masons aha. +And maybe an odd carpenter. +Yes. +But . +While you're on weavers, there was a weaver over at that little cottage on the other side Oh well I I can't explain. +You know where +Cottage. +. +When you're passing by and going to go down to . +You know where is ? +Yes. +Yes. +Well you cross that iron bridge there's +Aye. +an old cottage on the top. +Yes I know it. +Well that cottage. +Oh right. +and what relation is to him? +Well the the was Ninian's great great grandparents. +And he's the governor general of Australia today. +Sir Ninian . +Oh. +He used to come for holidays as a wee boy . +I remember him. +Aha. +Aye. +Of course they weren't er well off or anything there but he was a clever boy you see +Yes. +he went in for law. +Aha. +So he was a he was a lawyer or a judge I think in +I think he was a judge in India. +Mm. +I just can't tell you. +So he's the present Governor General of Australia and that was his great grandfather that was a weaver over in that little cottage. +That's amazing. +Connection. +They're they're related to us too. +Aha. +We're connected with them you see . +Yes. +They're mostly the country old country people now. +Related to one another. +Yes yes they would be. +They wouldn't out +Aye. +Well that's +It's quite interesting that. +It is see the difference . +Mhm. +Now again. +It's just across the river here. +Yes. +There were a woman born and brought up there, she was Annie before we married, and her grandson is +. +the Duke of Edinburgh's private +Er not a pilot but +No. +What is it +Navigator. +Navigator. +Oh yes yes. +Yes well he's he's promoted since then. +Yes. +And he's +Queen's flight. +Yes I think he's er the leader of the Queen's flight what do you call that? +Commander +I suppose something like that . +Mhm. +Well he used to come here for holidays. +And it shows how some people get on. +Yes. +Yeah he was just +You never know You never know, you might get on like that. +Oh no. +We'll see. +We'll see. +Ah he used to come up here when he was a wee boy with his granny. +Aha. +And when the granny come up again without him she told that when he went to back to Glasgow, if he came in hungry, he would say, Oh for a plate of porridge. +Very good. +porridge now, not with the Duke. +Yeah. +No maybe that's . +It kept him going. +I was I was gonna ask you who or what does the mean, the name? +The mouth of the river I think. +Mouth of the river. +Inver is the +Aha. +mouth and +I think +is +I thought you thought it was the confluence. +Well it's where the where the and it meets . +Yes. +I think it's that's the inver you see. +Oh yes. +Aye. +At the mouth. +The mouth of the river. +. +And and means the face of the sheep cotes. +Really. +Mhm. +I didn't know that. +It's Gaelic. +It's Gaelic is it? +Aha. +Well what would the original Gaelic have been for that? +Ah. +It's to to analyze that, you would think it was the cat's face, but it's the face of the cotes. +Sheep cotes. +Face of the sheep +The sheep +C O T E S , not C O A T S . +C +C O T E S +C O T E S like a dovecote you know. +Oh I see . +A sheepcote a shelter for sheep. +Mhm. +Right. +down South they would call it . +Aha mhm. +Sheep . +Oh I see. +Mhm. +Right. +Because you often you see the English word, you've no idea where it comes about it's just an odd word when it's been +Mhm. +changed you know. +Mhm. +Anglicized or whatever. +.H how how long is it since was deserted? +Oh well er I think it was the last . +. +. +Och no no. +Oh aye. +I think . +. +It'd be in the fifties. +Aye. +Er +I think so. +another thing I was gonna ask you as well, your father Your parents both spoke Gaelic obviously. +Oh yes yes. +and did did they speak it to you when you were children? +Yes. +My mother did but my father didn't very much. +No? +He mostly spoke English to us younger ones anyway. +Yes. +But er we used to answer when our mother'd speak to us in Gaelic, we'd answer her back in English. +Oh. +Us younger ones. +Aha. +But er +Jeannie and my older sister Mary, they were perfect Gaelic speakers. +Mhm. +They used to speak Gaelic to one another when they were children. +Yes. +Converse in Gaelic. +But we were never as fluent as that you see because er they went to school then and they started coming home with English you see ad speaking English and we just +Yes. +Mhm. +never got the same chance. +No I and and and was it not discouraged a wee bit at school. +No I don't think so here. +I heard it had been said that it was discouraged but er +I heard that said aye. +I don't think so never heard of it. +Aha. +Right but but you understand quite a bit of it still. +Oh I understand it as good as English. +Aha. +Aye anybody speaking Gaelic there is just the same to me +Aha. +as though they were speaking English. +Aha. +Right so. +There'll not be many Gaelic speakers left here now. +No. +Very few. +Gerald I believe. +Yes. +Yes. +Gerald +And his wife. +Yes. +And little . +Oh yes? +Is he? +Aye he's a Gaelic speaker. +Although if you if you say anything to him in Gaelic, he answers you in English I notice. +Yes yes. +. +Oh yes. +He speaks Gaelic. +Yes. +Yes. +He's just recovering of course. +Mrs . +That's right yeah. +I think Megan has been learning Gaelic I think, she's not a native by any means but But Ian 's wife you know +Ian 's wife. +She's learned Gaelic recently. +Is that so. +Aye. +She's getting quite good I think. +Oh well. +not a native. +Dawn can speak Gaelic. +Och not very well. +No but he understands it quite well. +I ask you when when you were younger did you would there have been many of the folk in the place spoke Gaelic or was it dying out then or +Oh no quite a lot. +The older folk. +The older people. +Right. +The older people's all Gaelic they would speak. +So yes. +So you would get quite a quite a lot of it you would hear. +Oh yes. +Aha. +of course you there would just been my father and mother'd be speaking Gaelic all the time in the house you see . +Yes. +And we were it was just to us like English. +Yes. +Only we didn't practise speaking it you see . +Yes. +Yes. +Aye. +And the ploughmen that were here, too they would they come from the West. +Aha. +And they would have Gaelic. +So we was brought up in that atmosphere. +It would have been quite interesting having the two languages . +It would have been quite +Yeah. +quite er +We just +You do you g get a a best of both maybe I would imagine you know. +be quite sort of interesting It was just er d I was gonna ask you about your name as well,, it doesn't sound very +It's not very high. +It's a name. +Aye aha. +I think. +Aha. +And it was +Yes I think originally it came from in . +Aha. +That's where the first +Aha? +And I think that's where the the chief of the clan is I think +Mhm. +he's Adrian . +Aha. +Aha. +But whether he's still alive or not I don't know. +But there are quite a few round and these places. +Aha. +Mm. +That's good. +So I think Jimmy traced back to the first +Aha. +who was descended from William the Lion. +Aha. +That was the first . +Yes. +A descendant of William the Lion that was king of Scotland at one time. +I wasn't very good at history myself . +No. +No no not not that far back anyway. +. That was just that's quite interesting. +Erm I was also gonna ask you about the the farm. +Would you all have worked in the farm, when you were young. +Oh we did a little bit anyway. +Yes. +May used to to drive the horses even in the binder. +Aha. +With with a binder with a +Yes with three horses in it. +Aha. +She she had to cut the harvest one year. +was away up at or something. +Aha. +So that wasn't bad going. +No not at all. +Well was the harvest. +Aha. +You you +Aha. +working at the horse. +You you liked the horses? +I liked the horses yes. +I I'm scared of horses myself. +Oh well. +I I like to see them. +I I liked I liked sheep. +Aha. +. +Sheep. +So I work on down the lambing quite a few times. +Aha. +Now we've we haven't got you see. +When did you actually give up the the farm as such. +I mean when did you stop +I think in seventy seven I think. +Seventy seven aye. +you see. +Oh I see. +Let it for the Summer and Autumn. +Right. +Cattle and sheep. +But I mean do you not it's not your +That's right. +Not your stock. +. +Do you miss the the the farm work a lot. +Oh yeah . +Oh aye. +Oh he cuts peats, he's been busy cutting peats. +Aha. +Do you cut well where do you cut your peats round here? +Pardon? +Where about do you cut your peats? +Away up across the overhead bridge here you cross the you know the overhead bridge +Aye the railway line. +Aha. +Aha. +You cross that and you go way up the hill about a mile. +Aha. +. +Aha. +you take them back with the with the Land Rover there? +No the tractor. +I still have the tractor and trailer . +Oh I see. +Aha. +What time of year do you cut the peats? +Well er the best time is the month of May. +Aha. +But this year you couldn't, the weather was so +So bad. +bad. +I never cut them all till about beyond the middle of June. +Aha. +But they're fairly dried out. +That er +Aha. +good hot days we got and those breezes too. +Aha. +Dried them out very well. +I must admit when I when I came in the door there the first thing I noticed was the peat smell. +Oh well yes. +Yes . +Yes yes you would. +And it's lovely. +Takes your right off. +It's lovely it's really it's a great smell you know. +It's it's like it's like going back in time the feeling about it. +Aha. +It's a great smell. +And I I I never I never thought to ask you about if you cut peats now. +Mhm. +And I remember we used to do it erm at the distillery. +Och while back now since we stopped. +I remember cutting the peats you know. +Ah. +My father and a few of us would would take the tractor and stuff. +But nobody I think does it now up there.. +I do I don't know why. +I mean it's good fuel +Yes but it's too much like work, we're too busy doing everything. +Aye I think so. +I think that's what it is. +But the distillery itself used to cut a lot of peat for their own +Aha. +For the distillery's use +Aha. +Oh they used to cut a big lot. +But they stopped it I'm sure twenty years ago. +Yes they get all mechanized now. +Is it finished? +Oh no it's a good bit yet. +I cannae can't quite see . +What's the next head? +Well just It's one of the other things I was gonna a It's still about the farm actually, I was gonna ask er about things like H your tasks your was there anything like things like the harvesting would you have people coming in to help you? +Would other farmers help? +No not often. +You would just do it yourselves. +Do it ourselves, yes. +Yes . +You would There wasn't a traditional +They did occasionally. +Aha. +A neighbour might come in or two neighbours might come in and help. +Aye. +With the in +Aha. +. +And you would have built erm haystacks was it. +Yes round stacks. +Oh aye aye. +Cos I think there was all different styles of those wasn't there? +That's right. +have your own. +Did you not have to be off the ground a wee bit or something. +Well we used to put er branches below them to +Aha. +keep them from sucking the +Aha. +wet off the ground. +Aha. +Yes and and a cone inside you know, with three legs a tripod . +A tri A tripod. +Oh yes. +And then if they got in good condition built up solid. +Aha. +And how how many haystacks would you have in a good year. +Oh well, latterly we'd have about ten haystacks right . +Aha. +And I remember the most corn stacks we had was twenty five. +Aha. +But er as a rule there'd be about sixteen or there about. +Aha. +Corn stacks. +That's quite quite good though. +Oh yes. +Quite. +. +So that's what you would have done with the corn The hay was the hay the stalk? +That's right, the hay and the straw. +You thresh the straw you see and +Aha. +the straw. +Aha. +Do you know if there was any mills around about? +Meal mills or . +Oh right. +This was one, just behind the . +Yes. +. +Yes. +I know. +Well +I know. +I remember . +And that would have been. +made the meal was it. +Made the meal yes. +Aha. +For the local people. +Would there have been anybody like like a baker who would have baked it or +No I don't think there +No. +was a baker here. +No. +home-made. +All home-made. +. +Aha. +. +Aha aha. +the bread. +Aye. +There was a carding mill at where they carded the wool you know. +I didn't know that at all actually. +That's where er Mrs used to live there. +I remember. +Who's in it now? +Somebody took it over. +You know where the council houses are? +Yes. +And there's that square house down to yeah ? +Oh yes yes. +That's a carding mill. +I'd I'd heard it was a mill. +I didn't know it was a carding mill. +Aye it's for carding wool. +Aha. +it was away during the war for scrap but we or maybe not, maybe they took the works away too +Aha. +for scrap. +And do you know when that stopped at all? +About nineteen six I think. +Aha. +Quite a while back. +Mhm. +Quite a while. +I was just thinking about also sheep shearing and stuff. +That you'd have done that yourselves as well? +Yes we used to A whole lot would come here and I'll go somewhere else the next day you know, we used to help one another to sheep shearing. +Oh right. +Yes there were quite a crowd. +Aye. +the sheep shearing. +And would had to make food for them and stuff like that? +Yes we did. +Yes yes. +It would be quite a a busy time. +Well it was just a dinner you made for them you see . +Aha. +And they'll get tea at in the stack yard or wherever they were . +Aha. +Oh. +. And they would be all the hand shears of course. +Oh all the hand shears. +Mhm. +And how many days would it take? +Oh maybe a matter of four or five hours we'd take here. +Oh right. +We we had +two hundred and fifty sheep. +But if you'd +They did the harvest first you see. +Aha. +And then they did the sheep with the lambs. +Right. +And that +was the biggest that had been about here. +Aha. +There's be about twenty clippers at it. +That's quite a lot. +There would be about a thousand to do in a day. +Aha. +Quite hard work. +long day quite hard. +Nobody'll need a hand clipping around here now . +Not very much. +They all +doing it the other day. +I was doing it the other day yes. +Aha. +Yeah. +down the valley. +They're still doing a wee bit there. +But er there were two boys who a machine beside. +Another thing I was gonna ask you about was erm I'd heard somebody mention ploughing competitions with horses. +Oh aye yes. +I wondered if you remembered any of them at all. +Yes because I I competed . +Ah you did. +Yes. +I was at the first one when I was fifteen. +Aha. +Was it quite a a big thing around here was it. +Oh what a great day match. +Where where would they hold it? +Oh on different farms. +Say here one year, maybe another year up and +Aha. +Different places. +Aha. +Well they'd just get a suitable field to keep the whole lot. +You get half an acre each to do. +Half an acre, that's quite a lot . +Mhm. +The horses would be all dressed up and everything. +Decorations and. +Be lovely that. +Nineteen thirty first was the ploughing match. +Nineteen thirty five . +Here . +They still have it in with But we never had a one here. +No no, it was just +the same. +No no I wouldn't think so. +Horse were nice. +Would would they have been the big heavy horses, the big Clydesdale +Well they were mostly the Clydesdale but oh there were some light horses in it too. +Mhm. +But it was mostly the Clydesdales. +That would be it would a a s the straightest plough would it be or the straightest line would it have +Yes that was counted in it too and it had to be well parked. +Each furrow parked against the other to keep the you see. +If you had holes in the seed bed that was a fault. +Aha. +It sounds like quite a skill . +Ah. +Just I was just gonna ask you really to maybe just a change you know the difference between day and know, maybe you can see quite a difference just er +Well of course you will, the population was +Yes and er the motor car. +No nobody with motorcars when we were young. +Aha er you mean, all horse transport or +or or walking. +Aha. +Or the bicycle of course. +But hardly anybody had a car. +But +Well except the the the . +And the doctor. +Who? +Oh the doctor . +relations. +Yes we remember going to school would see the doctor's car. +Aha. +If he happened to come up the way. +The the roads would they have been quite good or +Oh they were quite good. +Well not as good as they are now. +They were er what you would call er broken metal on them. +Aha. +And and rolled in. +Rolled in and what you called er water bound roads. +Er they done the broken metal and then they put on the top of it and then they come along with a watering cart and er splashed water on it and then +Aha. +drove the down between the +Aha. +the broken metal and then the steam roller was back and fore on it and It was quite a good surface you know, but +Aha. +Mm. +It was pretty rough and we used to go in Summer you know, barefeet, +Aha. +And we'd run in the middle of the road and today we couldn't stand it. +No no no tough. +It would quite suitable for horses and stuff +It would be very suitable for horses, even more so than on the present roads there's there's there's a better grip. +Aha. +For horses. +But er that kind of road would be no use today with the speed of the cars, it would just +Too noisy. +slacken up in no time and +Aye. +Oh yes. +We used to see a lot of shepherds and flocks of sheep +Aha. +you know, on our way to school and it was just grey flocks of sheep with perhaps +Oh aye. +two shepherds with them. +Coming from C as far as Caithness. +Yes. +I don't know where they'd been +making their way South. +What quite big flocks of sheep? +Big flocks of sheep +Aha. +and two or three shepherds with them. +And I remember it was a a one lot was a a . +A Mr from Caithness. +Aha. +How long would he +Walking to the South. +Be walking a way down South. +Aha. +Mm. +Would he would he ever stop and down on the way or something like you know overnight? +Well that's in er either stopping He stopped here one night. +Do you remember the deaf shepherd we called him. +Yes. +He left his flock up there and stayed here all night. +I think that's the only one I ever remember. +Cos we were off the road a wee bit you see. +Yes. +I remember er a flock staying here and the shepherds got their supper here and then they went on to for the night. +Oh aye. +Was a long long time ago. +would have been a a a drover-wood I suppose at some point. +This would have been quite a popular route. +Oh it would really yes. +An old inn you see. +I think it was +Aha. +built about seventeen forty five I think. +Aha. +the origin of Inn. +Aha. +That's a bit old. +And now they're taking it down. +That's quite sad. +Aye. +Aye. +Very sad indeed actually. +I'm not really sure what they're gonna put in its place. +When d when did the road go through here? +Oh well the +In I mean. +Oh well it er General , he made the first road. +Aha. +When would that be, about seventeen something. +About seventeen twenty +Yes. +I think. +Something along that line. +up to anyway. +and then there was It was improved after that. +It was known as the old Edinburgh road. +Aha. +The improved one. +It's followed 's Road most of the way but it's it went different routes some places just to take away a steep . +Aha. +But I think the pre er well not the present A nine but the A nine that was there before they made the new one, it was made about eighteen thirty I think. +Aha. +Up through to +Yes.. +See the other roads went by . +Oh yes. +And this was up by Bridge End and up +Aha. +by . +And there's a new for the place since the railway went through. +Oh really. +Yes it means the hill of the juniper. +Aha. +There is a juniper hill at the back. +Yes I used to play on it when I was a boy. +Is that so. +My favourite place to play . +Well it was it was known as before. +My father always c called the place . +Well well well the well the first post office was built, just where now, it was on Estate, so they called the post office . +Oh I see. +And did away with the stuff there. +Right yes. +And then when the railway come through, the station was also Estate. +Yes. +It was called Station. +Aha. +Oh I see. +And then +And before that it was known as . +Aha. +A nicer name. +It is really. +Yes. +that station. +Well is quite nice in the Gaelic but er when they change it into English they +Yes. +it loses its flavour. +It does I agree with that . +It's much much nicer name for the whole area really +Yes yeah. +Do you know what the means at all.. +? +. +The white +The well +The white river. +No was white you see it was an Irish word I think, and it was known as the . +That's how we'd you see. +Oh I see. +And I think it means the white . +Mm. +And originally the white goddess. +Oh. +That's what it came from. +It's Irish. +I'd never have guessed that. +. It's a nice r it's a nice river . +It's six sixty miles long. +The the . +Yes if you sort of. +I see. +It's a lovely river. +Oh yes. +Mm. +There's another down in er Perthshire,. +Aha. +And this was but they put a D in it to +Ah. +To distinguish. +to distinguish the two. +Yes, I see. +Mm. +. +The Gaelic is . +Aha. +And you see, Ireland is . +Yes. +You see, it came from the same thing. +Aha. +or something. +Yes. +Yeah. +It's an old sounding name. +Mhm. +I was meaning to ask about the would you you wouldn't have any idea the number of people who would have been in your your early days here? +Oh no. +No? +Would there not be Would there be two or three times the number now or. +Oh no I don't think so. +Of course the distillery distillery had been made bigger it er put up the population a good bit. +Ah. +But then a lot of the other part of the er disappeared in the olden days. +Aha. +Yes well when did they they start emigrating, about eighteen fifteen or thereabouts eighteen si +Eighteen twenty. +Well in eighteen twenty one th the population was one thousand one hundred and twenty odd. +Aha. +If I remember right. +One one thousand one hundred and something anyway. +Aha. +But I think when I was young we used to say that er the population about here was five hundred. +Aha. +But I don't know what it is now. +I think it's hundred or something. +I'm not sure. +We don't even know the people now. +No. +. +Well well you know, how many people would you know in in now at all. +Not awful many. +Not very many, the . +Yes. +Oh well yes +And the down of course. +anyway. +There're all them in the farms, we know all them right enough +Yes. +A whole lot in the council houses the distillery I don't know them at all. +Yes yes. +I don't know +Och aye. +well I know the , Alec and his wife and Ian and the wife. +But the other keeper I don't know. +Mhm. +It's it's amazing how it changed really +Yes. +. +Do you think there was more of a sense of community then or +Pardon? +Do you think there was more of a sense of sort of community in those days? +Where people would know each other better or +Oh yes. +Oh yes, I think they would. +Each other Everybody would know one another in the olden days. +Aha. +Well a way back in the last century they they had to go looking for a life a living elsewhere because of the poverty of the place. +Yes yes. +There was far too many people for the land . +I see you couldn't +And there was no other work besides. +Aye. +To keep them going. +. +Did you ever travel anywhere yourselves from from at all?. +Well . +the borders. +Oh yes. +But +Oh yes. +He used to go here and there. +Yes. +the Western Isles. +I reached the borders. +Aha. +I just saw England, I was never in it. +Ah right.. +But I was in the most of the islands you know. +Yes. +But you've you've mostly lived here. +Oh yes. +Yes. +Yes. +So this is definitely home. +I was just goon interesting to ask about was erm well just how how how people pass evenings you know, did they go visiting each other or +Yes there were a lot of that done . +Yes they would. +There was a lot. +Mhm. +What they called Ceilidhs. +Aha aha. +And what what what would happen in a Ceilidh? +Oh well just talking and when anybody came here they used to just talk about about old stories and things like that. +Aha. +Oh yes. +Maybe the local gossip that was going at the time. +Ah yes. +Would there be anybody singing at all or +No I can't remember an anybody singing. +Not unless a drunk man came in. +. +But occasionally a tramp would come +Aha. +and er he'd a night's shelter and a in the stable . +Aha. +Oh. +Oh we'd some regulars that used to come here. +Oh they used to come with boxes of jewellery and stuff and thing. +Oh aye +this +Aha. +jewellery. +Mm. +They used to go peddling you see. +Yes. +a box on their back and they'd open +it out and there'd be brooches and tiepins and oh we though that was great. +Yes. +Yes we didn't see many +Who where would they get that? +Or would they make it or +No they would buy it somewhere and sell it at a profit you see. +I see. +What you called a peddler. +Aha. +went round the houses. +And they were quite friendly were they? +Oh yes yes . +Oh. +Oh that's Did you ever have many sort of musicians at all in in in those days? +Musicians? +Aye people fiddlers or +Oh yes there were quite a few. +Michael 's father was a fiddler. +So was . +Yes. +Aha. +And er Jimmy my brother, he was a piper. +I'd heard that, yes. +I'd heard . +Yeah. +Dave 's +father, he was a piper too. +'s grandfather. +Yes. +And Don he was a grand piper.. +So there w would have been quite a tradition of music as well. +Mhm. +Would it be all self taught or or how +Well well er Jimmy you know used to go down to to learn to read the music. +Oh yes. +And I think Don could read the music too but they'd be more or less self taught otherwise but then they would have started playing by ear. +Yes. +And then they learnt the music later on some of them and +Ah. +Aha. +took it off the books then. +Yes. +Mm. +I was just gonna ask you another thing as well, was there any any tradition of local songs at all ? +Do you know any local songs or rhymes or anybody ever +Well +poems even . +Well 's father was a a bard. +Aha. +He'd a book of poems. +Have you ever seen it now. +Was it just one he wrote himself was it. +Yes. +Yes. +Oh. +Was it ever published or was it just +Yes yes. +Yes yes. +Aha. +I must find out about that. +You don't have a copy or anything . +Yes I can get a copy for you. +Aha.. +I d I don't think you would get them to buy now, but +No. +I know there's a copy in the house somewhere. +Aha. +I'd be very interested to to see +I'll give a look for it before you go. +Aha. +That was that was 's father. +'s father yes . +Aha. +Oh was great poet too. +I I'd heard he wrote a few things. +Oh that was a very good poet . +I I've I've been trying to see the 's about it and about getting copies of some of his poems so that people could see them you know. +And I I don't know what's happening but that . +I just wondered if you knew any of them off hand or. +We did have them somewhere but I I just don't know +Aha. +where they are. +Did did you ever ever sing or play anything yourselves or +No. +You used to play a lot . +Och. +. I never mastered it though. +You had a go though. +I used to try . +No no. +Do you play yourself, anything? +I'm learning the mandolin. +A wee bit. +Oh well I see. +Yeah. +Very slowly. +Mhm. +I don't think I'll ever master it. +But er I'm trying you know. +Trying. +I was just thinking there w there would be more music playing in those days, because there wasn't a television or or things like that you know maybe just to distract people make their own entertainment you know. +I was just wondering about well about that. +I was also gonna ask you about, was it a morbid subject but about funerals. +Was there any undertaker locally or +Undertakers? +Aye who would who would take care of that ? +Well er Mar Mary 's father used to do do the coffins. +Oh I didn't know that . +And there were other joiner over and Do you know what is? +Yes yes. +Well William , he used to do them too. +Aha. +In fact I think in in those days er it's mostly the local men that +Aha. +did the undertaking. +Aha. +But that's during my time that I remember. +Yes. +So if somebody died they would they would the body or or make the coffin and +Make a coffin and take it to the +Take it to the house. +Take it to the house. +Yes. +And would how would the would the the coffin be carried to the churchyard in those days? +Mostly, yes. +Shoulder high. +Sho Aha. +High on the shoulder. +And walk all the way to the +Walk all the way yes, in the olden days. +Aha. +Must have been quite a Would there have been a procession behind it or anything? +Oh aye yes and they'd be changing over +Aha. +Every now and again. +Was there anything like an places where they used to rest the coffin or anything like that? +Well er they would rest it in the parapet of a bridge I think. +Oh yes. +But I think there's some places though, special places for resting a coffin. +Aha. +Aha. +And then in the old days when they used to have this body snatching, +Yeah. +You know for the for the doctors. +Yes. +they had a little watch house. +You'd see that in and . +Aha. +There's a little watch house. +Yes. +Where the people watched for so many days there +For six weeks. +Six weeks. +Yes after the +Their relatives you know +Aha. +bodies you see in case they would lift them. +Aha. +And they they even had a gun in with them and if they didn't go by the third shot They fired in the air you see. +Aha. +They were liable to get shot properly. +Mm. +So. +It's quite nice of them. +Quite gruesome. +Indeed. +What why why would they steal the bodies? +For er dissecting it for the +Ah. +Doctor +Ah I see, the money yeah. +Because they were busy +experimenting at that time and +Ah I see. +You've heard of Burke and Hare. +Yes. +Yes. +Well, that's what it was. +I never thought it went on up here though. +Oh yes there were watch houses here +Yes there was. +Oh +In all the churchyards. +And they had to watch there for six weeks. +There'd be tonight, now for tomorrow night, the two that was on tonight had to find the next two. +Oh I see. +To go in their place. +Aha. +If not they would have to stay on another night. +Oh. +But they would only get two you see, and they would go on and that two would have to find another two to go on the following night. +Yes. +For six weeks. +. +Mhm. +. +Aye. +A lot of work and sleepless nights. +That's why there were these flat stones on the graves you know the old +Yes. +So +So that they couldn't easily get them out. +I see. +I didn't I didn't know that . +But there would've been nobody would have stolen bodies here though. +Surely. +Well. +I think they did. +There was er a man here his his name was James and I I don't know was it one of his relatives that was buried, but he dreamt that they came to snatch the bodies +Aha. +The body. +And he reported it and the put on a double watch that night. +Aha. +And during the night, the watchmen saw a coming over the the dyke. +Aha. +And they shouted at in a while they saw it coming up again, they give another warning. +Aha. +The third one was the the shot was to be fired you see. +Aha. +He disappeared. +Mm. +Whether there was any truth in it or not I don't know +but it was told to me that he dreamt it +Aha. +that they came in to snatch the bodies and they put a a double watch on. +But I w I was wondering myself did the watchmen make up the story or did it come? +I don't know. +. +Right. +But er +What about the tramp that was found beside dead beside the road up the glen somewhere. +Oh aye but he wasn't snatched. +No no but he was put into the church. +He was found dead at the roadside and er church. +Aha. +And there was a Miss living in the croft beside and she dreamt during the night that er he he was stolen. +Mhm. +She got out of bed and went out and went through the churchyard and went into the church and started feeling in the dark with her hand +Aha. +At last she touched him, Oh you're still there, poor . +And she'd away back up the way to bed again. +Once she once she was satisfied that her dream +Yes. +wasn't right. +It was +Very brave. +She wasn't she hardy? +Oh indeed. +A woman. +Very I wouldn't do that myself. +No. +You knew John ? +No. +Oh you didn't know John? +No. +Oh well it was his great aunt +Aha. +that did it. +Aha. +Right. +. +I think I've heard the name but I +Yes well his widow is in the in the house opposite to Mrs there. +Ah. +Across the road. +Yes. +Oh yes the wee white house ? +She's got a wee doggie. +Yes. +. +Oh yeah. +That's his widow there. +Oh. +Yes. +I didn't know didn't know him actually. +And John would be away one night,. +I I was er a manager up at what's that place now? +Ah I see. +That's another thing I was gonna ask you was about weddings too, was there be you know, quite a few weddings locally. +They would be quite different from weddings nowadays would they or +They used to have them in the in the houses you see. +Oh aye. +In their houses. +My father and mother were married in the other side. +They were married in was it in the barn or or +No the house in the +In the house they were married and they had +the reception where in the barn? +In the barn yes. +Oh I see, yes. +quite a crowd of people I think. +Oh I'm sure. +as a rule it would be I think. +Aha. +In the olden days. +They did, they were married in deep snow and it was a job for people to travel about. +Oh yes yes. +In January. +But er long before our time a a wedding in a district like this would last for about a week. +Really? +There were, the wedding would come off right enough but the reception would linger on night after night +Yeah. +Aye. +singing. +drinking . +Yes oh indeed . +. +What what about funerals, was there ever any wakes funeral. +Oh aye, there used to be wakes at one time. +Aha. +Not in our time I don't think. +at one time at that too. +Yes yes. +And at the funeral there was bottles of whisky +Oh yes. +Oh yes. +at the churchyard and +Oh aye when they used to carry it they they were drinking a dram now and again on the road going to it. +. +Oh well aye but I think they overdid it sometimes. +Yes. +I I mean, I'm quite sure. +Quite sure. +Ask I was gonna ask about was there any organized dances or anything in in the hall? +Was there a hall +Oh yes there used to be very often dances in the hall. +Would they be quite quite regular sort of? +Yes. +Yeah especially in the shooting season time when +Aha. +the lodges were full. +You would get a lot of people coming down from there. +Mhm.. +Aha. +And and who would play at these dances? +Oh well s sometimes it'd be the local boys. +Aha. +But er quite er often they got a band from Inverness. +Aha. +Maybe a fiddle and a melodeon. +Aha. +Sometimes the pipes. +Yes and they would they would go on quite a while these dances would they? +Oh yes. +Quite late. +.I I'll just stop this here actually. + +Oh I haven't got any +Okay, alright! +What? +This is what trousers he put them in the proper basket instead of leaving them there. +They've been washed? +As it happens no, they've not been washed. +Ah! +stop kidding about there! +Oh please! +Lisa's not home. +You've got your killer tomato on Joe. +No yeah, I've got one of them. +Well where's the other one then? +I'll have a look some in there. +Oh I've got two. +aha. +There's that spoon. +Oh yeah. +Ow! +Do you have to call Peter? +I don't know. +Yeah well I haven't taken them either! +Where are those er +All the best. +Oh hello Peter ! +Yeah. +Daddy ! +Yeah. +Mummy! +Better explain. +Mum! +What? +And you better ! +Yeah only cos first! +Have you brushed your teeth? +Tom? +Get ready are you going to the toilet? +Oh dear ha ha mm +Mum! +Oh! +Mm mm mm mm mm mm . +Yahhh mummy ! +Where ? +Woo woo woo doo be doo be doo . +Ah! +Mummy. +You hurt daddy! +Is it in +Get ready Lou! +I'm just gonna get my . +Yeah well get ready, but come on go and get ready for school! +Hey! +Where you going? +Get a chair to put these on. +Eh? +What have you got to do?done. +Just . +Daddy swore!that's to grandma. +Sore oh! +How's Lynn? +Alright. +You finishing off your muesli? +Muesli. +Yeah. +How was football today? +Now we only have football we can only take footballs in on Monday and Thursdays. +And no one can take ball down balls in on Wednesday. +Oh daddy! +What are you doing with those? +I've gotta do more Lego and Tom's downstairs . +Do some more on the couch. +Don't! +Hope you're getting ready Lou! +! +Got my trousers on now I'm getting on my jumper. +Mum! +Ooh ooh! +I finished that. +That's in the car Go on then off you go! +Alright I'm going! +Okay. +Oop ha! +There . +There's for lunch. +Have you got your lunch? +Yep. +I'll go away oh I haven't +is moving so when it +what are you getting ? +Better be a reason my love, +Yeah Bye dad! +Bye! +Bye dad! +Mum mum! +Choo train's in the car go and wipe that just take it downstairs and just plonk it on there +mum. +and then after we'll fill it in. +Come on +Yeah. +Come on! +This room wasn't like this yesterday. +That's because we've been playing . +Lou come over this way, come on. +Come here mum. +My ! +Yes. +Come on then ! +Come on! +Lou! +Yeah. +Moving this blooming train! +You're like this all the time! +Mum,where's a hanky then ? +No wonder we're late in the morning! +Luke, you're not ready! +I am. +What about your hair? +Who cares! +Go and have your . +Go on then, go up and do your hair. +Alright. +Luke switch that off now. +Luke Luke +Noise. +Tell him! +Lukey! +Turn it off! +Show . +Show . +Why? +Oops! +Ooh we're going to the ! +Alright. +I'm not done. +My hair. +er +Hair oh she p p p . +Catch the back of your hair. +Di doo di doo di doo di doo di doo +Ooh ooh! +di doo +Playing di doo di doo di doo di doo di day come on you,go away! +I have to draw the book. +Eh? +Alright. +Mm. +Don't ! +Right stand there! +There try it. +No no. +Hurry up there! +toilet did you notice she can reach the door handle now? +Which one? +Toilet door. +Does she tip toe? +No she can do it, she pulls the door down! +Wow! +I'll have to watch her. +Can do it open the door do you understand? +Yeah I know. +Mm ha ha. +Have you seen his mongy face? +Urgh they're dirty!! +Ask daddy. +Tell me a joke. +when ever when i do you know where do keep their food? +I don't know. +. +Where do you think? +Come on . +Leave! +Oh! +Woh! +So they don't +. +Come out. +I'm gonna I'm gonna +Are you mad? +Yep. +What are you the man? +I think Stuart's gone a bit mad! +Has he? +Can't wear your shoes! +Ah! +Oh! +You'll have to put down one. +I when? +Er I was talking to you before! +I heard ah Ahmed's shoes. +Mm . +Whether he's than just or . +We should . +Ah ah!. +Leave it! +Get picked up right from school. +Who's saying that ! +It's eight thirty two. +Oh crikey! +Why are you two always so late! +We . +Are you have a ? +Nothing . +Who's that? +What? +Who's that? +I'm not speaking to you now! +Why? +Really nasty! +Mum! +Why? +Cos you were nasty! +Atch +Mm. +It's not funny! +I'll do it. +Cos, not like +It is. +Out there daddy! +You ain't going out today. +You what? +Head up! +No! +I don't want to. +Hello! +Hello . +Daddy. +up. +You're going downstairs? +I'm going. +Come here I'll make +Head up! +Mummy. +. +Two. +Urgh that's mud yucky! +More? +I like it curly . +I like it curly. +Ooh. +Head up Luke! +Ooh mum mum +Keep your head up! +Don't need it on! +Oh look, how can I do this hair. +I know! +That's better. +Wahh! +Where my stuff? +Where my stinky stuff? +Turn to mummy. +How did you do that? +My nice kitchen. +Oh I forgot to look. +nice . +Can we . +Go on! +Thank you. +Go on go find get your pumps on Luke!oh look at the time,waiting for you haven't got you both ready. +. +Where's my bag? +I haven't got a drink. +You haven't got anything yet! +Where's the snack? +We'll have to rush +You're not pressing them now are you? +No oh! +Oh! +I've +Ask daddy if he's got a ten pence. +I'll put your boots in there. +Dad have you got a ten P ? +You take that two pound to go to the . +Why we got you got a we got +inside it. +Here you are look. +That's not fair! +Oh do you want to take a pound then cos I haven't got any drink in. +Well +Where is it? +mum +And I haven't signed those. +reading book . +Nothing. +Mum where's +And I'd said to the And I'd said to the dentist +Mummy +I thought I haven't signed nothing! +No forms or anything. +Didn't ask you first? +No! +I thought well I,bit of a +The re +changing or something. +receptionist's fault! +Yeah oh I thought well you know, you want me to sign here and sign here. +You always have to. +Yeah for N H S. +I thought well I don't know you see, because it's changed a lot, I didn't but I thought you know. +cos I have to sign anything. +No I I I didn't know and now they send saying you haven't signed! +Can you sign it and send it back? +Mum! +do you want some salt and vinegar Tuba Loops +Yes please. +Oh . +There you are then. +Oh no. +wanna get one of my shoes on my way out. +Yes. +No he didn't. +Hi-ya daddy! +toys. +. +Hurry up! +Otherwise the will be waiting for you! +Coo. +Come on Luke! +Shoe. +Ooh!. +Hurry up and get your coat on!. +Yeah that's coo! +. +You what? +Because the ca which one ? +. +Don't know. +Ha ha! +About half an hour. +Bye bye. +I'll go I'll go and pop into today.. +Well he he's +It's okay yeah I got the van and our I've gotta do that strap on the car. +Well I'm going, ooh I'm not doing that today . +I don't know. +Dad. +Jason! +I want I want one of his dad. +Luke come on! +What if I met +Don't be selfish Jason! +Bob? +I can get, well you know the strap in on the car. +Have you got your coat Gary? +What? +Have you got yours? +Yeah. +Ooh it's going to be chilly. +Yeah. +Luke? +Yeah. +I'll make you some . +He's found his train. +I allowed him to have his train . +said we'd better go from the house. +I don't know. +Come on then. +Mm! +Do you have to make such a disgusting noise? +Mum +Thanks darling +Mum +just a minute +mum +Here you are Marie +go on alright, is that finished? +No there's plenty potato there +Has she, oh no +all skins off +alright leave it then +Can I +Yes +They're heavier ones +Make them +Stop that +Ow +pardon +What did you have? +Don't be silly Marie +silly +Silly +No Gary +silly +Come on, +Ready mum +No, superman's was the other side +We have some cake? +I'll show you +that's it Gary oh what's that? +You need a big board Gary +Got one +there's +I'm over the club tomorrow +What's the matter, you dropped it +When Nick's brought the car back +Gary +going on the bus? +What time did you +cold +Up +No you can heat it up in the microwave it said. +Oh +That's what it said in the +I mean +I don't know without looking at it +I always have them cold, are they warm? +Yeah +Oh sorry, sorry, I'm used to having these cold +Can I have another one dad +Do you want one Marie Marie +Yes +I want one first +I'll put two in together +Dad can we +No +no, no +no +dad +You a cheeky boy? +Let's wait and see the first one ah? +Oh Marie, it's all on the floor, here you are, try again, oh ho +come on eat it up +Good girl, here you are Marie, Gary be careful, what's Gary doing? +Being silly +He's being silly +Is that potato all over the floor there, don't tread it in the carpet yes it's potato round you +Can I have one? +Do you know how fast? +of those +Do you want a cake, want one of those? +Mum got two +I know, you know +I don't know what they are +No that's what the other ones were, they're all the same +I want it +well go and have another one +What's wrong? +Is it hot? +No +Mm +That +Pancake +I'll do it, I'll do the one , mm +You having an apple? +Are you going to bed? +Oh yeah +Er +you're tired you are, yeah +Dad, dad, dad, dad, dad +Gary there's apples if you want one +I know +I'm not +well don't do that, it's not very nice, go get an apple +Don't like apple mum +Alright, you haven't had very much Luke have you? +There's an apple +apple, I want something else instead of an rotten apple +There isn't anything else now +Oh +Not having chocolate till tomorrow +Another Gary? +No thank you +You can have some fruit +I don't wanna +Do you want some pineapple Gary? +Yeah +Open a tin of pineapple +What do that for? +I like pineapple +Well what do you say? +You said he has pineapple, pineapple, pineapple +Oh +What you can +Can only have a bit I'm having +he wouldn't give me some of these +Er, half each +I'm having all of them +No you're not +I am, cos they're mine +they're not yours it's ours +If I can't then +could, yes +That isn't Gary's what he nanny did +What? +You know +I +No I didn't say it was +come and watch the news it's just started +Has it? +get more portable +Well why don't you get a piece of paper and a pencil and jot it down then? +Oh Gary now you've just said it +Me want a oh mum, Luke just strangled Marie +Pardon? +Mum Marie's chair +Mum want to stand +What a mess +Does +No thank you +Luke says yes, I say +I did not +Go then +Dad, come and get Marie cos she's getting out her chair, I'm just stopping her +ah, she was getting out of there +what you done? +Have you? +I think you are +Phhor stinks it stinks like a sewer +Look I +That's mummy's +She's in there +Put your feet down Gary +I'm trying to, will you get Marie dad? +Marie +Marie come here, leave Gary alone +Oh, no +What's the matter? +She's gonna break my table and sitting on it. +Is daddy in there? +Read this +Why what is it? +read this +It's to recording us speaking +Is it dad? +come and sit down +Can you it dad? +Can you let me do it dad? +Yeah, I'm still recording +Can we do it when we +We can't have it out +I know because we don't +it's not gonna see us +I know Gary what chop my neck Gary and go on my neck is it?what then? +Put them in, you didn't put them in and you press +You press twenty seconds Gary and put them both in +The time? +Yeah. +How many's gone in there? +Oh yeah, just put another one in there +That one ready then? +No, I, I was gonna do it but I gave you that other half for Marie +Where's +I don't think the oven was hot, stop it you. +It's okay, just keep it for now, that's it +I'm just wait top gear, you can go to can't you just by the side of Worcester +How can you? +one minute +Oh +Look at that +Ooh very nice +Hello hello Marie +Hello Marie she said, ooh are you giving Gary a kiss? +Yeah,oh did you like that Ruth? +What? +That pineapple +Er +the pineapple +Aha thank you, I was just +Dad +in this place +You ain't having a dish +Didn't we see this dad +Oh no, oh dad +Yes you did do take no notice +don't mind +You've had some of it let have some +Let the music end +Go on then +Can we watch it again? +Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh +What +There you go +What's that in your water? +oh +Gary +Oh +She's don't you run off, go and take your tray back in. +I can't oh +Oh +I hope Marie +Dad do you +I'll go and find +Pardon? +Well +Oh, oh +Oh dear +Shall I shut the door? +Do it when Marie comes in +Right hand +oh god +I can see you +She's opened it, she can open, she's opening the door +I know, that looks good +Mm +mm that's +mm +one for the , bring the walker in +I get it +Watched the wind +David +David +hello what +watched the, the door with the wind +There's no wind and +well go on out then, he probably wants to speak to you, Gary +just a minute +Oh I've got to +let's get Marie then +Oh +I thought you'd +Gary hasn't got round to watching it +Da, da +Thunderbirds +I'll watch it +Its ain't you,come on this +What's with that? +What's the matter?said the bears, yes. +Your alarm clock went off this morning then Pete? +Oh yes +Yeah +this morning he, did he actually remember to set it last evening +Ooh +Sunday, he was a bit the worse +press the button before it +How was it, game last night? +Terrible +No, no +He's a bastard +Ha what Wolverhampton was, yeah,like +He didn't bloody tell me did he +he +he said he'd been through recently, oh every time I've been through Wolverhampton that ring road's been awful the traffic like +Yeah, the +Probably gonna wait ten years +It was, it was a bastard +I think he's, he's moved in cos every morning +He does which one you doing? +I'd have a trainee +Yeah, not +it'll be night time +On the road +Yeah, by the canal bridge? +I would think +that coming from that way you say and er, there's normally a few spaces this time of day, well up the road there's and I thought +Took mine round the corner +I've got a B T van normally when I'm working parked underneath +Yeah +it's car park you know. +Yeah, well that's why I +get in, you'd find your car right at the back. +yeah, +Yeah +True +You're Alan's Alan +Yes +Oh +yes +or Ben +Well I won't be after today +No, that's right +After er, er, tomorrow they're all one big staff here +They all coming onto yours are they? +Yeah, yeah they mentioned you the other day at Eddy just said to him you know, +So you're gonna have Tim and the rest of them on your +Yeah , it'll be great because they all, cos they all like you don't say +but the er, at the joint meeting of course they're all a bit subdued, cos they're coming onto to well what'll happened, cos I've work up there, they're much more gregarious than the bloke down here, so they'll take the stuff out of especially when , so we'll be doing it. +Mm +There'll be +I think there was thirty two people at the meeting but, six or seven people +I'll have Alan +be like the days of +The +Yeah +All one big happy family under the big +and looking at that programme always, only have to be, pretty engaging months and years, just the only job they back, they would and the nineteen ninety five might be what federal just +We're doomed +I ain't no building them just to get all out and up done, I mean the programme now looks crowded, but when you look at the new programme it's just full, there's nowhere else and no more room in them boxes to write my instead of one every two, three months, there's four and five every month starts something +Yes, so what you're worried about the big nineties +I'm the lucky, I'd be the lucky I don't know. +Mm. +only thing we could, prospect for the er, like twenty years service +training is alright innit? +Cos you can train people to do anything +Yeah, but you've got to have people to train +Not all the trainings only crap ain't it? +you can have a bit of brilliant really are +If you walk into something else, it would be brilliant wouldn't it? +you're alright aren't you? +But erm, I mean the money's you know you'll pay the mortgage on, pay all your debts off and you, once you've got mortgage is gone that's it, you haven't got any have you? +Tempting isn't it? +It is yeah +Yeah +The trouble is, with this job I mean we're not trying to and start ourselves up doing something are we? +I mean, I'm really looking forward to I mean most of your bloody time within a year I'm getting out you can start doing what you want then, but when you don't have that regular period you don't know how you're gonna react to your own , you've got to +and then when you get there, you know, +so you got mollycoddle in a way, haven't you, so you know you say +lay your money down +you're not geared to do anything else, it's cos your attitude I suppose,anything else, if you really had to, er I don't see why it wouldn't +Well when you talk to these blokes in a pool room area service manager, what the hell they give you a price over the counter +come down from the actual job +There's +And we're, we are, we're ourselves if you're in a mess then people out there have got virtually no training other than what they've been given +Mm +Did you say we can change this on the first screen custody? +Yeah +Yeah +Just trying to get away early +I found that yesterday when everybody was saying +I like playing wouldn't enough but it is good. +Maybe +Sshh +I had and er he was saying like, all the and erm +I thought now Bernie? +Ha +Yeah, erm, I was going to is that erm it was always the same, two jobs down so it was due to go his boss would have then I've been there as well cos he's caused such a stink +whether they'll take him or +he won't +Morning Ton +Alright +so +Sorry +Have you got +He was another one who sent you to Wolverhampton +Yes he was wasn't he? +he was +yes he was by why's that? +Why, cos I got stuck there that's why, it was a bloody awful day if you ask +I'd take your time putting those +I suppose +I told +I thought Graham said he'd be first one in here +Yeah, always prompt isn't he Graham? +Oh +yeah but then you've got another week of it +How can somebody be saying nothing +Don't lie Gary, why would be +dad +come on because it would have been perhaps the first time I suppose it wouldn't be a +Then I now, that'll be a wasted phone call, was it somebody +Actually when you have to +Yeah +Oh don't tell lies +You and that's the only actually with er come on you'd better say because I'll have to phone them up and explain +It was +what the bloody hell was going on? +Hello +Oh stop it Marie +No +you mustn't speak to people on the phone +Well I've still got to +What's that?get down, get down +Oh +mum +Yeah, hold on for a time, I'll be with you in a minute. +Here are +I'll be with you in a minute, come on it's wet +Dad +saying da, da +Yeah go and put it back Marie +Just a minute +Oh put it back in, in the water, what's this? +She keeps smelling the washing powder +Oh +Good girl put it back in, see +Can you +good girl, weeee good girl +No don't do that to your towel +towel +da, da, da +No, leave the phone alone, come here +No, get +Oh dear +Are you being a , you leave +It's nice and warm, warm +Yeah, do you want to go in the water? +Yeah +Yeah, nice there's a baby look +Yeah +Yeah +nanny +nanny +water +Baby wants to come out +Mummy +don't do that +Hello +Hello baby's warm +, hey you got a plaster on, said she's got a plaster on his head +Yeah +yeah, there he is +yeah, you can go ok watch her actually because er, she went right back up on these bloody chairs this afternoon, I mean she really cried, oh course I mean she, oh when Catherine come in I mean she'd not long done it, then she nodded off to sleep I said oh they always say you should try, I mean I +There you are daddy +was patting her back, trying to wake her up all the time +Catherine said she'd probably be alright, I mean she woke, she would have been tired anyway, you know what I mean, especially after swimming, the water they gave bath water, it's not like the +Oh I have to erm see if you can go actually, erm that's a weekend I'm not sure when it's open for anybody, cos they do ever such a lot of classes, they do scuba diving there as well +What's that? +You know the erm back packs, +Oh yeah +said there was that there as well +Oh can I do that? +ever so dear +really dear oh,just leave me one +What's that, mummy +yeah +Go get dad then +Oh come on +Showed daddy what you're signing up for +Look what I signing up +I mean it would be nice, I've been reading it this afternoon, it would be lovely Gary +Wow Gary you'd be saving up till the end of the days +Would you pay the difference, +Can I have a +that Gary? +Got you +Did you watch it then Gary? +Yeah +That's right we watched it +Leave the phone, Marie, no +Hello +oh +there's mummy +tell her, tell her Gary +It's what's it on that +for what? +done +take it, Gary +hello +yeah the +hello +no, no, no, no, no, no +Mum +Don't go upstairs, I don't know why he's called you upstairs for +not upstairs, no +I don't know love , come on +no don't upstairs +why you're waiting for your burger +yeah +Gal +Pardon? +you say yes please +Go back upstairs anyhow the red table you'll have to bring it down now Gary +Here we are dad +I told, I kept saying to her +Come on Gary +Can you bring her down Gary? +Marie come on here are Gary come on +Gary +He can't +Oh paddy +go and eat Gary +Gary +I don't, I don't know +Oh I'm not waiting for you, come over here, no, no +Gary +Come on, come and sit with mummy +Have you got because +Mummy mummy, mummy, mummy +that's right +When does that refill fit that one then? +That refill I bought +are the ball point or +mummy +no +mummy +no it's +here are +The refill says fibre tip refills +Oh, why didn't you say that then? +That's what Sally was looking for wasn't it? +Won't it fit that then? +No, that's why it won't fit +I thought that's what you bought that one +No, no +the one you had +That's what I'm saying +It was a fibre tip refill that I was trying to get but I didn't buy a fibre tip refill +Oh, oh so it'll fit the other one then? +Eh? +It'll fit that one won't it dad? +Why, what, what's this other one, I, I don't know about this other one I don't know what the other one is, +The one you showed me +no that was the one I tried to buy the refill for which was a fibre tip +I thought that is a fibre tip +I'm going round in circles here, I know, that's why I bought the refill for, that's what I'm saying I don't know what the other one is, +Well, so that will fit it then, that's a fibre refill. +No, what I meant was I meant to buy it, I wanted to buy a refill for it, but I ended up not buying the right fibre tip pen for it +You've got two of these +What did you, what refill did you want? +I didn't want a fibre tip one +that's then +I couldn't get one , it's a ball point one +There +Now Gary sit down +You won't need this one +Mum +I thought the same as you +mummy +mm +mm +mummy +mm +daddy +yes +Mummy +mummy +I know I was +yeah +nearly stuck your foot up, come on +What did she do? +Stuck her left up to scratch sit good girl +Mummy +Mm +I expect dad +come here, got to oh Marie no good job it wasn't to it. +Mind my +I can't have come on then be careful of my papers that's right, it's ever such a sharp +come on then, ooh no I didn't get +Yeah +you could have answered it by codes +Not yet +Who's that? +pardon +I know, don't scratch it you just make it worse +What have you done with his burger? +Its not quite ready yet +Kick your legs kick your legs Marie, Marie, now come on, no come on cos it's hot in there, here you are +No +here you are, +Where did you get that from? +Off that little tube +That? +yeah +Who made the jar? +Did you take the ruler and the rubbers upstairs as well? +No +Why did you take the jar upstairs? +Cos I wanted to oh dear +No, no +We're gonna find out who his true friends are +What if +had a little visit from Mr thing, whatever his name is, he, sounding you out was he? +About what? +About the course +No the other chappie who's on the course next week +Oh that, that yeah +he said he's gonna be out +He was being very human today +He was wasn't he? +He was being er +then saying that he's lost his sit down job doing nothing wrong +Not +How long has he been in there doing nothing? +I mean ever since I've +been coming down, ever since I've been coming down here, he's been in there +so he says got away with it for ten years +Yeah, they can do +I'm too young, I, I +got a van him and Nigel got a van now +Taken over from Dave +I know him +Are they? +Well Dave, Dave and Bob +There, putting in all their time +Yeah, Dave +So +That's put them all off down at one time didn't they? +So what he did, he got +So they get the faults and then that, in that area +rather than having to move out the way +anybody else they'd get kicked out wouldn't they? +Yeah +Yeah +It's too it's just what he wanted +we didn't have +Just what he wanted +and they're building up a petition so he's now got a office he's had he's had three offices +but erm Jim's knocked him down to two. +He's what? +He looks alright at the minute I mean they go on about him, but he looks after +Yeah, the truth +The thing please everybody in the car everybody's hey +you are +That's usually his night out +Oh is he? +they couldn't have got him, you'll get him, you'll get him . +Say there was a big cheer when he crashed his car on the strike ,crashed his car on the strike, did you hear about that? +No. +I don't know whether he was on a call out, going towards the crashed his car, he'd got +Bet he +Go on lads +Ooh +Oh god the +Let us do a couple of hours and then they've had enough, sorry Ton, +Yes, there was a rumour that he was on a + +Yeah I pushed one down and the other one down +Automatically yes. +So, same as this. +If you press this one, if you press record it won't because there's a tape in but if you just press press record automatic and you press record and the play button but you can't press just the record button. +They automatically both go down. +Provided there's a tape in the +In the machine. +in the machine that +I saw it actually when I was just doing it and it went how loud it was. +How could you be unobtru but it isn't look. +Can't hear it. +Cos you can hear it bzzzzzzzzzzz +Yeah. +I thought loud. +noisy +Yeah. +You're gonna +You could be an ob an obtrusive making that noise. +No. +No it doesn't +Though it doesn't make a noise cos I was doing it wrong. +Yes. +It's going slowly now. +Yeah. +Going much more slowly now as it records more conver conversations. +That's it. +Mm Don't stop talking now. +silly. +It's all gonna go quiet now isn't it? +Nobody else'll say anything. +at all. +That's ridiculous! +You gotta +. +We'll just have to put it down there some time and just put it on. +Yeah. +So you wouldn't know when it's on or when it's off. +Mm. +Just have to try and, take a little while to get used to it. +Once you're used to it it's probably . +It's all a matter of getting used to being recorded. +Conversation. +Yeah well it sounds ever so funny when you hear it +I know. +Yeah. +Horrible. +You think I don't sound like that! +. Really makes you think. +I wish done something about my the way I speak. +Mm. +Mine's terrible because I've got a low voice, a deep voice anyway. +Sound more like a man I do. +I do on the phone don't I? +Don't know really. +I've not really heard you much on the phone. +Used to telephone didn't you? +Well yeah but +Didn't know it was me. +Oh yeah I knew it was you so it didn't make a lot of difference. +People have told me on the phone that I sound cos I've got a deep voice I +You sound different. +Vera does. +Does she? +Mm. +She sounds funny on the phone. +Most odd. +Phone her up and think that's not Vera I'm talking to. +Doesn't sound like Vera. +But it is although it doesn't sound like her. +Funny innit? +What, her voice is different? +No it just sounds +Or does she talk different because she's on the phone? +No just sounds +Some people do. +They put their phone voice on. +Yeah. +Yeah. +Don't they? +Yeah. +Oh I can't put any voice on, I've just got me own. +Mm. +I find people do tend to put a quite a lot do, put a telephone voice on. +Specially if you're phoning a posh restaurant. +Yes. +Or something like that. +You tend to sort of I'd like to book a table for two +on Saturday night. +Rather than say look mush I want a +I want a table, you know. +Oh I'd better go and wash our dishes dear. +Not many to do now done them all. +Most of them. +There's only yours. +Have you had +What about +enough to eat? +Yes thank you. +Fine. +I would have done it actually when, when I took the plate out but the water in the bowl was cold. +Thought it was hot but it was cold. +I think I've used most of the hot water. +I think I need to put the immersion on for just a little while. +Mm. +I need a bath as well but +Mm. +I've used quite a few buckets of water washing walls. +Washing the walls and What's going on outside? +Car or lorry or something going by by the sound of it. +About that little flat in in Albany Road. +Yeah. +You have to realize that we're never gonna get away from work. +Cos when the wind blows you can smell a tandoori and +It's when you walk up that way you know you're getting near it +Yeah. +cos you can smell it. +Won't bother you? +No. +Not really. +Mhm. +fact it'll be quite handy in a way really, you know it's +handy to live on the on your right next to work in a way cos you don't have to worry about +Getting there. +getting there so much do you? +It'd be quite nice for me to be able to pop into town and get a bit of meat or something +Handy, really. +And it's not far from town. +Very handy. +You can go in for a drink. +It's a little walk but it's not that far is it? +Not very far at all. +Top Street and you +Yeah. +cross the main road and you +You're there. +and you're like the horse fair +I said if you go for a drink you don't have to worry about getting home. +No. +Yeah I know we'd still go up the Clickers sometimes but we don't have to go all the time do we? +We're not there yet are we? +Mm. +lot of things. +It's going well. +You and Andy? +Oh yeah. +Where did you meet him? +When you went to Russia. +Suppose you know that song well as well? +Sorry? +Suppose you know that tune well as well. +I wrote it. +You wrote it did you? +Mm. +Sing it then. +not now. +When I fill a book in about recordings and that how do you put have you got a regional accent? +You have. +Mm I'm aware I have. +And so have you. +Not really. +Local I suppose I put +Well haven't really got much of an accent at all have I? +No. +Think we'll have to put down yes though when we talk to mum. +Yes. +But not this region. +No. +You have to put the the regional accents acc accent if they have one. +Ah. +Like er Liverpudlian or +Get +No it I won't see . +cos he comes back next Friday and we're on lates so he's on earlies so +Yeah, suppose +We shan't be seeing him. +Never mind. +Rita? +Essex isn't she? +that sort of +Yeah, Essex isn't she comes from London doesn't she? +Romford yeah. +So she's got a bit of an accent in in a way hasn't she? +Oh she definitely has. +Ann has n't. +No. +Frank? +Frank and Barbara. +Frank's London isn't he? +Yeah yeah. +Definitely. +Bob? +Bob's Notting +Mm yeah. +Not though is he? +No but he has got a bit of an accent. +Yeah. +Says lots of words that I don't use. +Get old Sonny and George. +I won't though cos we hardly see them. +No. +Which is a pity because they are +Mm. +cos they've both got accents. +Sonny is more sort of +Norfolk. +Norfolkish isn't he? +Er and George is Holbeach +Yeah. +in Lincolnshire. +He's got a funny little voice hasn't he? +Yeah. +yeah. +Mild weather. +Yeah. +Cloudy mild weather's forecast North Gloucester . +Why didn't you go in for that? +Meteorology. +Is that what you call it? +Yes. +Cos you're quite interested in the weather aren't you? +See what it's like Saturday evening when we go to the party. +Mm. +Whether we're gonna walk, ride or what. +Mm. +Good walk up there you know, isn't it? +Well it's only about as far up there as it is up town. +Is it? +Oh. +Don't think the weather's gonna be too bad. +We're usually pretty lucky when when we're on holiday. +Aren't we? +Mhm. +Not that +It's just +we're going anywhere. +I tried to watch that but it wasn't very interesting. +So you couldn't get interested in it? +No. +No. +It's a bit I don't know +to it. +see what it's about. +What about it? +You don't really know cos you weren't in interested +No. +I I turned it over in the end. +Yeah. +I turned it over and that's about Did you have +again. +Ooh would you ever? +Did your teachers used to hit you? +No. +Oh, would have hit other kids cos you wouldn't have been naughty enough to be hit. +I've seen people caned. +Saw one one lad was really really sort of well okay he wasn't clever by any stretch of the imagination but he just, was just a you know a sort of no-hoper and he he riled one teacher up very very badly one day cos he didn't do his homework or he was pratting about or he was you know. +And he got this he got a ca no it wasn't a cane but it was a quite a big stick. +It wasn't a sort of a sort of a thin cane, it was quite a big stick, he whacked him a couple of times across the backside. +And he really, and he really did belt him one. +You know. +Cor but he got him so riled and you know. +Wouldn't he have felt it as well. +Yeah. +Yeah. +Mm. +He was just a nice teacher. +Got on al we got on ever so well with him. +I did anyway, I got on with most teachers but but he did, really did give him a a really big, say a big couple of swipes on his backside. +Mr Mr had erm a locker. +You know he had about half a dozen in there, you know he +Chose the one. +Yeah. +Yeah. +Yeah which one you know. +Right you're gonna get one of these. +Which one do you want sort of thing, you know? +Yeah that will, no, maybe not. +Maybe this one . +Try that one today. +Aah! +Yeah. +No I don't think I was ever caned. +No. +Good boy. +Yeah. +Yeah. +Too good. +One of the goody goodies. +Yeah. +Goody goody . +Just a good boy. +I'm a good boy now aren't I? +Sometimes. +Oh sometimes. +Mm Well you never hardly go ever got into trouble at school. +No. +You were a model pupil. +Oh I don't know about model, but no, not a model pupil dear. +You always did your homework. +I tried. +Sometimes it took hours and sometimes it didn't. +Depending how much you got. +I don't think I, I don't know, well I didn't get caned. +I got a swipe or two off Miss . +Her with the withered paralyzed arm that she bashed you with because she couldn't clear it and you blooming well could. +Yeah . +Her arm was like this only ever such a little hand and if you, she used to go and it just sort of reached your earhole when she was walking past you and if you were talking in class she'd go . +That's all she could move it really was +Just far enough to get your earhole. +like that. +Yeah. +Stop that . +Sit still. +She a few times . +She was a the sewing mistress. +And do you know, with this arm it was the right arm as well there was the most beautiful sewing. +She used to hold it, she sort of took it in here +Yes. +and then sew with this hand +Yeah. +one hand how she And it was beautiful work +Yeah. +she used to do. +Yeah. +Really did. +she used to call us heathens cos we didn't wear vests. +So we would deliberately not wear one even if you did +Yeah. +if you had to go and try a garment on, you deliberately didn't wear underwear or +Oh yeah, yeah +just just to annoy Heathens, she used to say. +Disgusting! +Where is your underwear? +But I wear a bra miss, I've got me underwear. +Where is your vest and your liberty bodice? +You will come to a bad end! +You gals. +Yes Miss we'd all chant. +She used to really get not just sit, you know really silly old bat. +And we had Miss who used to wear knickers down to her knees. +She used to sit behind her desk like this with her legs open and her knickers used to come down here, pink ones and blue ones. +And she used to eat chalk. +Eat chalk? +Yeah, she was ever so odd. +She used to +What, lumps of chalk? +she used to chew it. +Mm and it used to be all around her mouth and she used to have a bit here sort of one of those old ladies who had whiskers on her chin and it'd be all white. +We didn't take a lot I mean she was a history teacher so now you know why I didn't learn a lot of history cos all we did was giggle . +And if you played up she used to chuck the blackboard rubber at you. +She was really dotty. +Really was. +Absolutely bananas. +She always used to sit with her legs open and these bloody knickers +right down her knees. +Real passion killers like then? +Yeah. +It's just as well she wore knickers like that the way she was sitting behind her desk. +Well sorry if she didn't wear any at all eh dear, eh? +Miss but by god she had a good aim, she might have been bloody dotty +You got up giggling and laughing the back of the class and whoosh the bloody board rubber come flying across the classroom . +Mm and blooming hurts and all . +That terrible?what they're gonna do with them? +Put them away for life we hope. +They ought to. +Seem to put them away for a long while but +Would you like anything before you go out dear? +Mm I don't think so. +To abandon me to your friends . +Oh here we go again! +Don't love you any more heard it all before I know +I've abandoned abandoned you all day, most of the day darling and +I know. +We're on holiday and I'm being left on my own. +Cruel cruel hard man. +I know. +Not stopping you going boozing though is it? +Well there's you're quite welcome to come with me if you want to. +I don't want to. +You don't want to. +Well there you are then. +If you don't want to you don't want to. +Well it's about quarter to seven so I suppose you're soon going to be off. +So a little bit of discipline and a clip round the earhole obviously done them good. +Oh they don't know half. +I was gonna say they discipline hard to discipline's much more +Oh we had much more discipline when we were young than they have nowadays and I don't think it does them any harm. +No. +If my children came home and said to me that they got the cane at school I'd have just said well you must have deserved it. +I wouldn't have gone rush I mean some mothers have gone rushing up the school and complained. +I said well he must have done something to deserve it. +Mm. +Otherwise they wouldn't have done it. +Jonathan the other two didn't so much. +Jonathan did couple of times. +He come home with lines and write passages out of this that and the other. +Yeah. +Well Steven used to tell on him you see. +He's been in detention again. +Tell-tale. +What you tell her for. +Huh You telly-tale oh you're too goody goody, you never get . +Over exuberant, that's what they put on Jonathan's report, school report. +Good for some things. +Exuberant. +That's what one of his school reports said. +Jonathan suffers with an over ab abundance of exuberance. +When I were at the parents' evening I said does that mean er he never sits still and he's always tearing about and +said well something like that.. +Yeah but probably now they'd call it hyperactivity. +Probably. +I don't think he was, he was just I dunno +A lad. +Yeah. +And I I er and not only that I used to say to teachers well if if they'd ask him about and if he had anything er er and he'd be bored. +Mm. +why do you Jonathan,St Steven said oh he'd been in detention. +Why have you been in detention? +Oh I was playing up and they chucked me out the class or something and I had to stay in at dinner time. +Said well why were you playing up? +I was bored. +I tried telling some of the teachers that. +He finds the lessons boring so obviously they're gonna mess about. +Yeah. +If they're bor if you're bored and you can't +Bored yeah. +So you, you get distracted and do something else +Yeah. +you shouldn't be doing. +And that's a fault in some ways of the teachers. +Mm. +If the pupils are bored the should make it interesting enough to keep their interest. +Yeah. +Mm. +Yeah I know subjects they're not you can't be interested in all of them. +No. +Look at them cars. +When I was at the garage getting the petrol I give them, signed the cheque and they put the cheque through the cheque machine printing it out and that and er they've got a free offer at the moment. +You collect these tokens for collect so many tokens and you get a free Corgi toy. +I mean normally I don't bother with the tokens, I mean I Anyway I paid the cheque and I said to Peter I said oh by the way what about me tokens for me for me toy I said if I get a free one of them I can give it to give it to the grandchildren. +See, Ricky'd like that I'm sure, little Corgi car I said . +He said oh no you don't get them with cheques. +Cash sales only. +I thought I just spent twenty seven quid on petrol I said +And you can't even have a bloody free Dinky car. +free couple of vouchers for a new for a Corgi toy. +There's a woman in there she said oh give it to him. +I said give you a cuddle some time. +Mm. +I just thought you know I okay it's only a cheque I know but +Yeah but it's still twenty seven quid. +They don't get many twenty seven pound customers. +No. +That's what I thought. +Fiver or what have you. +I think it's I think it's one voucher for fifteen litres. +Now what do I have? +If I had twenty seven quid's worth at fifty P a litre that's fifty two fifty two? +Fifty two litres roughly so if it was one voucher for fifteen that's three innit? +And I think it was six vouchers for for a free +That's it. +free Corgi toy. +So all I've got to do is when I run out again fill it up again spending another twenty five quid's worth or so that would have been six and I could have had a free Corgi toy for Ricky for Christmas. +Yeah. +Or whatever. +Yeah. +Little present innit? +Yeah. +Hasn't cost me nothing has it? +Or hasn't cost you anything. +But next time I shall have to run, take the cash in there. +And see see what they say next time. +Mm. +pays a cheque it was just easier to pay by cheque. +And they've got a machine to do it anyway to work it all out, print it all out. +Not very fair is it? +Oh no. +Saying cash I mean it's still cash innit? +Would have thought so. +big business that. +Yeah. +Toys. +Terrible prices. +Bet mum's still got that +Oh I don't know. +You want to ask her about that. +Mm. +You could see if anyone's got one at work couldn't you? +Yeah. +Oh well I'd better go and do the dishes I think. +say there's not that many there is there? +Only a plate and a few fork, fork and a knife and that. +She's done everything else. +I must do them now and then it's out of the way cos you and I want to see Emmerdale at seven. +Oh yeah. +Yeah of course. +Don't forget that clock's gone about five minutes slow. +Come along dear. +Yes, yes. +Oh there was couple of nice bums there definitely. +Oh I know there was. +And then when we finished er finished the game about, I don't know must have been about twenty to eleven when we finished the game there was sandwiches and chips coming out. +At that time of night? +Well the game had finished you see so they brought supper out. +Usually have it half way don't they? +Mm sometimes yeah. +basket of chips and +Oh so you've had bloody supper have you? +sl sliced sliced sliced boiled potatoes and some er +Huh me sitting here and you've been eating blood supper . +sandwiches and french bread and that. +It it was about ten to, five to eleven mm Bob said you know cos we went, me Ron Bob went in in Shirley's car and er cos Dave and Tracy they come in their own car because Sarah was not feeling very well so they had . +So Tracy went back to the Griff and said oh share in with the supper. +What, it was for the team there as well? +The, for the A team yeah. +Erm as I say it was about ten to five to eleven and Bob said what are you you know what's Ron doing? +Chatting up the women probably if I know Ron. +Quite enjoying himself . +He . +Yes he was. +Very much so. +Yeah I bet he was. +Said what you doing and +Eyeing up the bums like you. +and I said I said to Bob I said well, you know said well hadn't you better get cos Shirley had had a go at Bob first off, before when, when I went in there first thing. +Shirley said and don't stay to the end. +He said well you've got to stay to the end I mean, but don't stay right to the end, you know sort of +Mhm +So she'd had a bit of a go at Bob and er +And I suppose you were saying I had Ann saying oh leaving me. +like I say about ten to eleven, five to eleven said what are you doing then Bob? +He said well I'm . +Shirley's sort of getting on to you a bit I think we'd better make a move. +home and +Pardon? +I'm going to bed now . +Have one more at yours before we you know before you go home sort of thing you know . +He said oh I don't know, well what's Ron doing? +Ron! +What do you want to do? +I'm stopping for another. +So we stopped for another one. +So Bob's gonna be in the in trouble. +Du n no. +Well I didn't ask when he come in the door up there where the hell have you been? +With me on me own for five hours. +And I had John Smith bitter. +Oh well you've quite enjoyed that and you've had a few of them by the smell of you. +Smell like a bloody brewery. +Told you, that's not a bad little pub is it? +What the ? +It's a goldmine. +Absolute goldmine. +Told you that and you said yuk. +I don't mind it in there. +It's years since I've been in there. +Must be about three or four years since I've been in there . +Not bad is it? +Oh no. +It's a nice pub. +say that but er they've extended it +Yeah I know. +down the back and out the back there for darts and that. +I know. +I know and a little stage. +I've seen yeah I have. +round the corner a bit +Well maybe, maybe they maybe they change it round when there there's something on there and there's no darts on or that. +Mm yeah probably. +Because erm because er Sue +Mm. +thing and her dad's got a country and western music I mean he, they go all over the bloody place. +But we we were in there one night and he, he was playing. +They had country and western night on there, now I think I was doing nowt one Saturday night and Sue and Steven were going to hear her dad. +Mm. +Why don't you come with us for an hour or so? +Mum'll be there after bingo at half past nine. +Mm. +I was going to bingo and I said and I said to her well we'll go and pick Sue's mother up and we'll pick you up and all and she went the Empire, I went the Corn Exchange but that's beside the point. +Yeah. +Yeah. +And picked us up and I went in there and I were yeah half past eleven time. +I mean it was a bit loud because it was live music I suppose but it wasn't a bad night . +got lively. +I say it was say it was about three, four years since I've been in there so +Oh +they'd extended it, they extended it round the back and +Yeah. +Well I was, it was round the back where +Oh it +he stood with erm the +It's probably where they've got the dartboard and that in there. +Probably change it round. +Yeah there is. +And there was a bit of there's a bit of floor in front of it. +And we were dancing on that bit you see. +Oh did you? +There weren't a lot of room but you don't care do you? +When you've +Mm little dance and +at ten o'clock at night and pub was packed. +People singing with the the group. +Yeah he plays guitar and sings Sue's dad does. +Stewie in The Loco well huh +You know everybody. +Well not everybody but +Biggest part. +Knew the landlord . +Who I hadn't seen for goodness knows how long. +Hallo Stewie, how are you mate! +Bloody hell's that? +Knew his face and I can't remember his damn name. +Gary +Might even have had my Steven in wouldn't have known him. +Yeah, he would. +How do you know? +Because there wasn't a tall slim ginger-haired chap in +I did think it, well I did think it was a possibility but I mean +Probably his mother and father her mother and father had been in there anyway. +there's a little boy there'd be no chance of him going in there anyway. +Oh no, course not. +Course not. +So +I'm going soft in the her mum and dad'll probably be in. +That's their regular if they were having a country and western they would ask him to do it because he's +What's his what's her mum and dad look like? +He's big. +He's a, such a big fella. +Fat. +Sue's mum's little and fat, nearly as tall as she's broad . +But dad's a +Maybe they were in the lounge perhaps. +bigger I mean he he he's at least as tall as you if not bigger and er also +Sort of Tom size? +Yeah. +And she's about the same size round but about five foot two.. +Well I didn't see anybody +Sue's a big girl. +She's as tall as me and weighs nearly +Mm. +she must weight fourteen, fifteen stone I should think. +Sue's big +Well then I certainly didn't see anybody in there looking like that. +I must admit. +Oh she usually goes after bingo. +They'll probably be in all night and she's just walked up from the bingo and toddle in there. +No I didn't see anybody looking like that so I don't know. +I wouldn't think they'd be in the lounge. +They could be but I wouldn't have thought so. +Thursday night anyway I wouldn't, does she go to the Empire +Well I don't really know do I? +Empire. +Do they have it Wednesday night bingo? +Thursday night don't they, bingo? +Is it Thursday night? +No oh I don't know . +Thursday night not at the Empire. +Wednesday night the Empire, Friday night . +Thursday night +Oh well she wouldn't be there after the bingo then would she? +Probably went to I know that she does go . +She there most of the evening and she goes to bingo and +Yeah. +Cos they live down round near Tina's but not like Tina's house, before that off Allard Avenue round the back of Allard Avenue. +Sherwood is it? +Sherwood, yeah Sherwood Avenue . +Yeah. +Yeah they live up yeah. +So it's not that far for The Loco really. +No just a short walk. +It's sort of their local type of thing. +anyway but Well Ann is going to retire. +I suppose you're gonna have a bottle and a fag. +Mind you, the smell of you I think you've had sufficient bottles but +well +Told you not to drink much. +I did n't. +Ooh. +Perhaps I'd better stop up then. +Well I tried not to, but +What? +Bob said do you want a drink and Ron said do you want a drink and I said to Ron do you want a drink Ron and everyone said do you want a drink and +You had quite a few. +No, not that many. +But er +But I might as well go to bed. +probably erm +But I might as well go to bed? +And you do realize that this conversation is on a tape recorder? +Well I don't mind. +if it is . +That's what they want. +Natural conversations so +Not sure how natural though +I'll have a can of beer and then I'll probably go to bed. +We haven't got any left. +I drunk them. +They've gone have they? +Mhm. +Oh. +I'd better have a bottle then. +I drunk them as well. +Oh you drunk them as well? +Oh. +ah oh now what am I gonna do? +Without. +I'm without. +Crafty devil. +Put them round the corner where where I didn't know where they were. +Falling over now. +No I'm not. +Oh that young couple next door ah! +Yeah? +They been at it, have they been at it again? +Oh I wish you'd have been at home, I'd have gone round there. +What've they been up to now then? +Oh god! +She's been screaming. +He's been reckon she must have locked herself up in the dark. +And the only place with a lock on is the bathroom and I reckon they'll blooming knock the blooming door down by the sound of it. +Gawd. +She was screaming, he was swearing. +Running up and down the stairs. +What time was this? +Quarter to ten till about half past ten. +Or half an hour till half past ten +Well that wouldn't please them next door would it? +No. +Coo. +And and really I mean you can't I'm I'm s I'm saying that you, you can't interfere but by god I'd long for someone to come in and interfere. +I really would have done. +And er er I I could never understand why people that obviously could hear what went on and pretended they never. +I know you don't wanna get involved +Mm. +and this that and the other but people must have heard what went on and and you know the next morning they'd see a black eye and just carry out a normal conversation as though +and you know they hadn't heard it all and +Yeah. +ooh have you had a fall or something? +Then you know I mean they must have what was going on oh aye they just completely ignore it. +Mm. +I'd be walking round if I could get around. +Mm. +It were just you know oh it's a nice morning when I'm hanging the washing out as though everything was wonderful you know +Yeah. +normal. +Yes. +Ooh I thought he was going to, ooh I felt made me go cold and I I thought if, if I hadn't been here on my own I'd have been very tempted to go round and and say is there anything I can do. +Or I'd have called the police I think. +I weren't sure what I'd have done but +Bad as that? +Oh . +He was a calling her effing this, swearing oh it was dreadful. +She was screaming and you could hear her crying. +Then you hear, she pounded up the bloody stairs and he was after her and I reckon well the only room with a lock +As you say is the bathroom. +is the bathroom, so she must have been in there cos he's hammering on the door and bashing it and kicking it. +Bloody hell of a row. +Or whether she opened it or whether she was in the front bedroom with something behind the door I dunno but +That's his +and she run back down the stairs and the front door was opening and banging and shutting, whether she run outside or what I don't know what happened, the dog was bloody barking. +Oh lord. +Well it's a wonder Ann and Rita haven't done something about it. +Well I say it's er amazing they've not said, said something +And they had company as well there's a car there, blue car. +Who Ann and Rita or? +Or Ann and Rita. +I don't know. +Sally innit? +I don't know who it was. +It was Sally if it was a blue e , blue cavalier. +T D O something something something. +Sally can't drive so it must be some +Can't she? +Her latest beau I should think, I don't know. +Maybe. +Maybe maybe. +But it was I mean I could hear it over the telly. +I know I don't have the telly on full blast but I could hear it +Mm. +above the telly. +When I first heard the first noise I thought what the bloody hell's that and I turned the sound down. +Yeah. +Thought bloody hell, put it back up but you could, it was really distressing me cos +You knew what was possibly going on. +Yeah. +Mm. +A woman and that don't s I mean if you're having just an argument it's raised voices but a woman doesn't scream and cry like that unless +Unless there's something really +something awful going on. +Mm. +I mean Ann and Rita reckon they're not married or anything but why the hell does she stay with him then? +She's not got a bloody +Well there you go I mean +she's got no children. +They're only young. +It's her house. +Isn't his. +He couldn't, she bought it without, with her father and +Mm. +and he come and lived with her in it. +Bloody hell. +I know I mean I stayed with him but I had three kids. +Gonna say you're you're +I had three kids, where could I go with them? +Mm. +Mm. +If I'd have been on me own I mean that's all I was waiting for, mine to grow up so I could clear off. +Yeah. +If I'd have been on me own I wouldn't have stopped bloody long. +I mean even if she walks out he doesn't, no court in the land would give him the house if it's hers. +evicted and then she could come back again. +Mm. +Well if she went to the police they'd chuck him out. +He has no legal rights to the property. +It's in her name, she's, her father's helping her paid the deposit or something and she clears the mortgage she has no right, he has no right to it all if she went to the police. +They'd just turf him out wouldn't they? +Mm. +Well why stay in a relationship like that? +Don't understand it. +Certainly a bit rough, a bit hard. +Went quiet about half past ten so whether he buggered off out or what I don't know. +Mm maybe. +Certainly the front door was opening and banging and shutting. +Say I'm surprised Ann and Rita haven't sort of didn't +Well banging on the wall probably with all the other banging and +May maybe. +Maybe. +They part of the banging. +So much bloody banging going on. +Probably part of the banging Ann and Rita. +And the people on this side you don't know how they were reacting as well. +Say, they was a quite young couple. +We don't hear them that much do we? +Mornings is the time I hear them most. +Cos they go out to work at half past eight and you hear them between half past seven and half past eight +There you are I've made you a cup of tea. +Thank you dear. +Very kind of you. +Are you sure you don't want any breakfast? +No. +You want nothing at all? +No. +You'll be hungry. +Eh? +What do you mean good? +Don't be silly. +What's the point in getting really hungry. +Had me tea last night and the beer and few sandwiches last night. +How would you like that? +Order's not completed you've got to stay till it is. +Up yours mate. +I'm going home. +Ten o'clock and that's it. +Or whatever. +Not many would. +Very rare. +Not often. +Oh my god! +I had that yesterday. +What's our post code? +P E fourteen seven P G. +They was looking for it on a list. +Mm. +Said I know it's P fourteen, I don't know the rest of it. +And he looked on a list he had and he put seven something. +Seven P G. +I can always remember it. +Well you're good at remembering numbers. +Well yeah but I just think P E fourteen, half of fourteen is seven and then T. +G. +Yes darling. +So that's how I remember it. +Funny innit? +Yes very strange but you are strange. +I know yes. +Very strange, yeah, very strange. +You always remember numbers. +Don't you? +Car numbers and telephone numbers and +Car numbers I remember more by the letters than the numbers. +Because there are s specific set numbers. +Once I see +When they come round at work and says this car blocked in I say oh go and ask Stuart he'll probably know. +Give you a blooming it's a blue something or other and this is the number. +Go and ask . +I said go and Stuart or Bill they, they know most of them. +I wouldn't know one from another. +associated the letters with the car and the letters with the car go together. +And then the numbers, the numbers I don't remember that well. +Some of them I do. +now with them changing the the changeover cos they always used to be the letters followed by the numbers. +Now they've got the initial letter followed by the number then the letters. +Rather than so As I say you associate the car and the number together. +I don't. +It would probably throw me completely If you +it would throw me completely if you put, if you changed some of the number plates over. +If you put Tina's number plate on another car and visa versa that would throw, I I'd probably look at it and think you know, oh somebody's got a new car or that looks familiar but it's not the right car so I wouldn't think about it. +Even though I know Tina's is C two one one Y C L if it was on a different car I'd probably look at it and think +Oh that's not right. +it's not right, it's not Tina's. +And so I wouldn't think that that I probably Just a just a trait of personality. +I wonder how she is if she's at work or at home. +Don't really don't really care to tell you the truth in a way but +Oh that's nice. +Well no I care I care if Tina's not well and hope she gets better soon but I don't care if +You don't care about work getting in a muddle +I don't care about work and them being in a muddle, no not at all. +Let them get on with it. +That's not very nice. +It is. +No it isn't. +Well it is. +Why isn't it? +Cos it isn't. +Well +if a lot of others were off we'd have to cope somehow wouldn't we? +So there you go. +Just cos we're off. +And possibly Tina and that is off so they'll just have to struggle on as if we were there and a lot of others were off. +Don't you agree? +Yes darling. +Right. +So what's on the agenda for today? +Well you know very well. +We are going shopping. +Where are we going shopping? +Whenever you're ready to take me shopping. +But where are we going shopping? +Well probably Wisbech. +No point in going to Lynn if we're going to mum's. +No but where? +Wherever you wish to take me. +Where would Ann want to go? +I don't mind. +Haven't got a lot of choice. +I don't like Tescos at Wisbech cos it's . +Right. +So it's Gateway Gateway or blooming Rainbow. +Suppose we could go down the Rainbow and have a look at that microwave. +But I'll have to go into town first. +Cos I don't think they'll give me the shopping for nothing and there's no bank down Rainbow. +Well there is, a Co-op bank but I don't think they'll let me have some money out of it. +Mm. +Maybe not. +And seeing as I haven't got an account with them I don't think they'll say well you can have some anyway. +No. +No. +And then we're going into town? +Well we've got to go into town +Got to see the estate agents and see if we can view something today. +Mm +other ones that we are definitely interested in and underneath the ones that we are not so interested in. +Yeah there's one down, that one down Elizabeth Terrace. +I was just trying to figure out which one it is. +Hundred and twenty. +I don't know if that isn't erm what they call it who died not long ago? +Hazel's mum's. +Cos perhaps the dad's moved out or you know . +Quite close to her. +Oh what was her name? +Old Hazel's mother. +Hazel's mother. +The little old lady who went to Salvation Army, always wearing a little hat. +Oh what was her name? +Cos you know her as well. +And I said oh my god she's died and you said oh I know her. +What used to go to the Salvation Army? +She was to Salvation Army. +Ever so small little lady. +or something. +I can remember her kids and I can't remember her name. +Terrible. +Hazel and Terry, mother-in-law's brother Terry fire officer at Wisbech, it's his mother-in-law laws. +And she died not more than a few months ago. +Oh it's awful. +It's dreadful I mean quite fond of her. +Just trying to think which one it was anyway . +I think it's her house. +Yeah but I'm trying think which one it is. +Cos I say I know that I know Elizabeth Terrace well. +Yeah I know cos I think you called on her cos you knew her. +When she died you said oh I know her well . +Hundred and twenty. +Let's go and have a look. +Oh it's in here somewhere innit? +I put a ring round it so I know +Oh yeah here we are, hundred and twenty. +Ah the one one in from the end. +Yeah, I know the one now. +One in from the end. +I think that is her house. +Mind she had a husband but should think he living with one of the kids. +Can't think who lived there now. +God, cos I used to call on that one. +perhaps. +The only trouble down Elizabeth Terrace parking. +That's the only trouble. +The only consolation if +the college. +if that was a possibility or if that became a possibility mum only live round the corner. +Not that far away is she? +Few hundred yards. +She drives. +And I could leave the car in her driveway. +Then there's the college. +Lot of people park in the college. +Don't they? +So that is a possi I was just wondering which one it was cos I say I know some of them are a bit you know +Yeah. +a bit dodgy. +I knew there there they had a lot of trouble with one of them but nearer Helen's end. +There was one there that was empty and for a long long while. +The builders started building, knocking it about +And it fell to bits. +And then it +and then, no the ran out of money. +The builder ran out of money and the it was just a shell. +You know, nothing in it. +No windows no doors no nothing er you know, completely gutted it to make it all, to renovate it and then ran out of money and then it just stood there completely empty. +And can you imagine a house in the open air in winter? +Do it a lot of good would it? +It wouldn't do it a lot of good, no exactly. +Woodwork and +exactly. +and even the brickwork. +No. +damp and If you get me back to mum's for about three o'clock time at the latest to take her to Osborne House. +Well that's what she's that's what she's she's, she just sort of she didn't mean it but +No it +it was her thought that we were +Yeah cos I mean you'd probably run her back, rather than her biking. +As I say I mean we, if we could make an appointment say three fifteen or three thirty to see Sefton Avenue. +Cos we'd be up there anyway. +Yeah. +Wouldn't we? +Before it gets dark and you couldn't see anything anyway. +Oh we'd have to go and have a look in the light. +Well that's it. +Definitely. +cos you can't see a lot. +Cos there won't be electricity on. +Anyway you wanna have a good look round seriously consider it. +Cos I think now we haven't heard from Mr and I think that means he's not prepared to take it so he's not bothered about coming. +Yeah? +Is that the way you're reading it? +That's the way I'm reading it. +I'm +Ignore it cos the man might just leave him in there renting it until or when forever it goes up. +But we can't afford it to go up. +I'm disappointed that he's not been back +Yeah I am. +to discuss it. +Yeah I am. +And to put the position to him. +Look the market's not very good I know but we're sitting tenants. +We're quite happy to take it on. +We'd like to take it on. +If we leave have you got another tenant to come in? +You're gonna lose two hundred and fifty pound a month. +And a good two hundred and fifty pound a month. +Exactly. +You know, not one that he has any hassle in getting. +That's it. +He don't have to keep calling and wandering around after us. +But I'm not prepared to go on renting it. +No no. +As you say three thousand pound a year that could be paid off a place of our own is is just I mean if I have to rent it well I'll have to rent one. +If we can't get anything else and we can't afford anything else we've just got to go on paying it but +But +when there's so much other +as I say you look at I mean this is two fifty. +You look here in the paper and see how much they are. +Yeah I know. +Some of them are terrible. +You're talking two sixty, two eighty. +I know. +Three hundred. +To let. +Three seventy. +No! +Detached four bedroomed house admittedly. +Granary. +Two b two two bed +That's the one I fancy. +If I went anywhere into another flat, I'd quite fancy going into +Two bed second floor self-contained flat. +Living room kitchen bathroom twelve months two seventy five unfurnished. +Mm I know. +Armada Close two eighty. +Norfolk Street two eighty. +Mm I wouldn't I wouldn't go in to Armada Close I don't think. +That's furnished. +Six months. +Two eighty. +Yeah well you see, furnished you see they can charge extra. +Norfolk Street self-contained principally first floor flat, two bedrooms furnished two eighty. +I wouldn't want a furnished one now. +No, of course not. +But as I say +I know they are expensive. +Which is why I +Two sixty two eighty which is the same price as +which, which is why now er that Rose and Jean when they considered it. +Mum said how about renting one in Wisbech but I said well if she can't afford a mortgage you can't afford to rent one. +Not anything that's worth living in. +No. +fifty quid a week ones are er forty pound a week and so on. +You gets what you pay for which nowadays isn't a lot, not for that money. +You know when I asked, was gonna have er on Lynn Road there what was that fifty a fifty a week? +I mean it was +Fifty or fifty five weren't it? +it was clean but that's about all you could say. +Is that the one Ann is in now? +Or in that area. +I don't know where Ann is. +No I think she's down Victoria Road somewhere. +She won't tell anybody. +But I think she lives somewhere down Victoria Road. +I don't know. +She's only in a bedsit. +Yeah. +But I mean you see her up town though. +I know. +That's cos she's lonely and she just wanders about. +She gets up +don't want to stay in the bedsit. +One room she she shares a bathroom and kitchen. +She just goes for a walk. +I mean she's seeing people and +Yeah but I mean the times I've seen her it's been this end of town rather than that end of town. +Which has made, which which just makes me think +I don't really, I just presume she lives down Victoria Road somewhere but I don't really know. +And she walks to work. +She couldn't do any other. +She hasn't got a vehicle, she can't afford one. +No no. +But that just makes me think why, that's what makes me think she's living . +She could be. +But that weren't a bedsitter that I was in . +Shared bathroom but I +No but yeah +but it was a kitchen and bedroom and living room. +They're only tiny like an alcove bedroom but +Oh yeah I've been in one of them. +You know I've seen them. +I mean it was the only one with a with its own kitchen. +The one that I was gonna have. +Yeah. +This was right up the top and there were a tiny attic bedroom thing was made into a not very salubrious but it had a cooker and a sink. +Yeah. +And as I say that was fifty or something a week and it wasn't wasn't worth it really. +No. +Furniture wasn't that posh but then er but the only thing I thought about it was safe and it was clean. +Needed a bit of personalizing but it was it was old-fashioned furniture but it was polished. +It was clean. +Had a reasonable carpet on the floor and, and so on. +Mm. +But it wasn't worth fifty pound a week. +Definitely not. +But that's what they're going for though isn't it? +If they can get them for that +people do . +People are desperate to buy and they'll have whatever and they have to pay. +Yeah. +When you think that one what was thirty three thousand two hundred and sixty a month or something wasn't it? +Well that's gonna be about two hundred and forty, two hundred and fifty a month for that one down . +Cos thirty three worked out two sixty didn't it? +Oh the mortgage you mean? +Mortgage. +So you can say two hundred and fifty pound a month to buy a place. +Oh yeah. +And yet they want two eighty to rent one. +Seems quite ridiculous. +Well that's if you're prepared to buy a flat. +That's the only thing isn't it? +If you're prepared to buy a flat. +Yeah but at least you've got, actually got the property haven't you? +You're not just paying somebody else to have a Cos if you're moving if you can't sell it you can always rent it again. +Which is what a lot of people are doing houses especially. +They buy a house cos they've had a child or something. +They can't afford to they can't sell that one so they rent that out which pays the mortgage for it and start again on another mortgage. +You've got to be a bit careful when you're renting out though. +Oh yes. +Got to be careful of your tenants. +pay. +Tenants. +That's why it's best to go through an agency or er something like White and Eddies because they have people that collect them and they have people who have to take up references and +Yeah but not only that but I mean if you +And they have they have proper leases. +I mean after that they're out and +Yeah . +well I mean all, all well it counts towards your income as well. +Oh yeah I know. +Oh yeah income tax on it. +Counts counts towards your income. +But a lot of people are doing it. +Mm. +Oh I know. +Well there's for one. +sell +Lot of people are doing it because they just can't well circumstances. +It's either the job or something means they've gotta go away or they can't afford, they can't sell them so they I don't know if that would make your income different if you were still paying a mortgage . +Even though your, all the money +Think +you were getting in was getting paid out again? +I think you'll find it counts towards your income. +So I mean if you had a job +Paying them more tax. +You, you got a job say you're earning +But I think the expenses when you're +earning ten thousand a year. +And you're going, you're getting two hundred and fifty pound a month as well in rent +Yeah but you, you'd be able to claim expenses. +I think so, yeah. +You wouldn't pay the whole of it taxable if it was you know you would claim expenses for one thing and another. +Oh I don't know but I mean I wouldn't have thought so. +Yeah. +Otherwise probably that's why they are dear because they have to do things like that. +That's probably why they're the price they are, two eighty. +That's it. +Because people take +Pay fifty and thirty quid a week more is a bloody what they get stopped off them. +and people have taken out big mortgages like Tina. +And to pay off the mortgage they've got to charge so much +I mean Tina's got that little house . +I mean now you'd get it two hundred and fi , I mean Tina pays two hundred and forty eight er pound a week, a month. +Three hundred and forty eight pound a month mortgage on that little house. +Yeah. +I mean that was bloody thirty nine thousand, or was it forty one when she had it. +It was +I know. +forty one I think. +I mean now they're going for thirty two. +We can afford one like that. +Yeah we could isn't it? +Mm. +They don't sell now. +Not selling at all. +There's a few renting now cos they can't sell them. +So It's a nice enough little house but I'm not awfully keen on it are you? +I don't like the, I don't like the bedroom +No I don't +situation for one. +If it had a door and a wall and +You're just straight upstairs and you fall into bed. +Mm. +Handy I suppose but +In some respects but I mean it just doesn't I mean in a way I suppose well with Tina being a non smoker and Wiggie being a non smoker +It's not so bad. +isn't so bad but, I mean if you're like us and I mean the smoke's just +That's it. +That's why Tina doesn't like people smoking in her house because it gets into her bedroom. +Yes. +Exactly. +The smoke would just rise straight up and +Yeah. +straight up into the bedroom. +I mean she doesn't smoke anyway so I mean you know +She doesn't like people smoking in her house. +Because she says I don't want my bedroom smelling of smoke, her sheets and everything else. +She would do +Mind you they have done a bit more to it since Wiggie's been there in as much as she's had a big curtain put across +Oh yeah. +Across the top of the stairs like or +All the way across. +Because Steve couldn't sleep. +Because of the light in that little +Because it's light. +See you'd even the patio door light went +Straight upstairs. +straight upstairs. +And that +Because he's, and then +skylight . +Mm yeah. +skylight . +He's had a blind put up a special blind that leads straight across the fanlight. +And she's had curtains big track put across so that sh +She can shut it off. +she can shut it right off. +She couldn't, she just wasn't sleeping. +Said was broad daylight. +Mhm. +She said oh he you know we've had all that done. +Tracked across the ceiling so that shut the off. +She said he just couldn't sleep in there. +With the light. +With all the lights and daylight and sunshine through the bloody thing and It was alright once he got off but he had a job getting off when it was +Mm mm. +as I say when it was sunlight shining through the bloody thing on his face. +Mm they've had a special, they had a skylight blind made . +Mm mm. +They couldn't have an ordinary one cos it would hang down. +Has to be on a runners on the side as well otherwise it would just fall down. +Side yeah so it fall +Yeah. +Mm. +It's got a, you know like a frame what you put in along. +Like a venetian blind in a way . +Mm. +Or a straight down blind but at an angle but er but on runners to hold, yeah. +But it's got runners to hold the side in you see? +Yeah. +I mean but Steven would but +Do they owe +the building society and erm +the building society. +Yeah. +They'll have to pay another mortgage as well. +Yeah but on the yeah but I mean if she sold it for thirty two she'd still owe them nine thousand wouldn't she? +Well she must have paid a bit off. +She's been in there about three years. +Yeah. +Well say she owes them nine thousand anyway. +Yeah. +But then er if they wanted another mortgage it would be +That would be added to it you see. +They'd probably have a fifty thousand pound mortgage to pay off the the existing mortgage on that one and the balance. +I mean they can afford it between them. +Well I don't know, I mean Steve must pay about eighty pounds a bloody week. +Oh yeah of course Steven and his maintenance. +Maintenance. +Maintenance and one thing and another. +Yeah. +Yeah that would cut it down wouldn't it?on their own you can say they'd be able to afford it but if you consider the outgoings as well eighty pound a +Mind you saying that, three hundred fifty pound a month to buy a bigger mortgage anyway. +Nowadays. +For the interest rate yeah, but it would only buy the same sort of mortgage that Tina's got on it already. +Yeah well that's what I mean. +They could have bought, afford a +Yeah. +a a better property for about forty four thousand or whatever for the same money. +Cos that's how it's worked out. +No cos she still owes, if she sold it she'd still owe the balance between the selling price and +Yeah so she's got to buy a cheaper one and that would be added to it. +That would be added to it you see. +Mm and just his wages how much extra they could afford. +That's it. +I know Steven would like . +Mm. +He'd like one with a spare bedroom so the children can come and stop. +I mean Tina's worried now, she's got his mother coming for christmas for a fortnight. +Don't know where the hell she'll sleep, she's got to sleep in the living room. +Mm. +But that's about fifty isn't it? +Fifty two probably get the fifty. +As I say you're looking at a +Hefty mortgage. +Tina reckons out of her wages she's got ninety , ninety six pound a week out of her wages just for mortgage and +Expenses. +expenses. +That's gone before she starts. +And then out of Wiggie's he's got +Seventy five I think he pays. +It's a lot of money gone before you've even +Mhm before you even start. +Mm. +Depends what you want most don't it I suppose? +Mm mm. +That's true. +She'd like to change the car. +I mean she never liked that car. +Ever. +She had a nice car before Chris made her have that more or less. +She didn't want it. +She hated it at first, she wouldn't drive it. +Noisy and clumsy, she didn't like it at all. +She never has really. +It's not it's not a bad car is it? +She doesn't like it. +Never been happy with it. +Never. +It was Chris's idea to have the diesel one and that model. +He talked her into it. +Yeah. +But she hated it at first. +She'd do anything rather than drive it at first. +I don't know what she had before but it was a +Mm. +Mind you it was quite old. +I think it was a car that she'd had for was well looked after her dad used to see to it for her but it was she'd had it for some years and she was always poodling about in you see. +And it was her second car that she'd ever had sort of thing. +Mm. +She'd had it five or six years or something like that. +You know, think it was about ten year old when she got rid of it. +Something like that. +Yeah. +But, say it was a lovely little car really. +And she hated that. +Mm. +Times she used to go really hate it. +Yeah if that one, that Elizabeth Terrace one is, is the one I think it is which is the one fairly near the end in that in that bottom, bottom row I think the live in the first one, they still live in the first one on the corner. +I'm not sure if they've moved actually now. +They may have done. +Got a funny feeling they have now. +But Who's that? +Paper man. +Bloody hell. +Morning. +Did somebody kick you out of bed this morning Brian? +Thank you very much. +Thankyou. +Bubye. +Thought somebody must have kicked him out of bed this morning. +Only half half past ten. +quarter past ten. +That ain't bad. +Got the time to have a quick look at the paper now haven't we? +Yeah. +The Standard? +I don't mind. +Oh mind at all +And if we make an appointment to view some places and then we'll know what time we've got to doing the shopping and fit it in round taking mum. +Seeing mum. +something erm next week. +So you don't fancy this afternoon? +In the morning. +Oh yeah well yeah I mean if if they if +Cos as I say if we did see Sefton Avenue or New Drove today. +If there's nothing available. +That's what I meant. +Oh yeah, there's plenty of time. +I don't really want to go on a Saturday. +Saturday afternoons with mum. +Saturday afternoons with Helen. +well I wouldn't be absolutely if, if I had to go out then I'd have to go out. +Then there's always Saturday morning see Helen but then Stuart likes to sleep in. +But no I think Saturday's out really. +It's not a day for viewing houses. +We could go out Sunday? +And mum could come as well. +I don't know whether they work +Oh yes. +People at work all the week don't they? +Yes. +Gets dark in the evenings then then then definitely. +That's the only time you can view a property. +I mean unless somebody's living in it you can't go in the evenings in the winter can you? +And I don't fancy a house that somebody's actually living in. +Cos then you've got ta wait while they +Yeah. +And it can all fall through because theirs is falling through or they can't get out when you want and that can go on for Can it not? +Yeah. +Sometimes it just can't be helped cos there's nothing in your price range you know that you like that isn't empty but I would prefer an empty property so that when we decide and then whatever just +Certainly if we'd see something that would do this afternoon, or New Drove today, that's fine. +No problem. +Two of them at New Drove are downstairs and one is an upstairs. +The one upstairs, because it hasn't got a bay window +Yes. +is larger. +The upstairs one is slightly larger. +The upstairs one's larger? +number seven which is an upstairs one hasn't got any bay windows. +It is larger than the two five and six that are downstairs. +Who's selling that one? +Well one's Cornerstone. +One's Cornerstone +So one's Cornerstone and two are the other +Two are Hansard +Yeah. +I think it's Cornerstone one that's the larger of the two, the three. +Six seven. +Hansard. +Hansard. +They're doing five and seven so they've got one above each other. +So they've got one one's doing two and one's doing one. +One's doing five and seven which is this is for two and one's doing six which is this one. +Yeah. +Seven is definitely slightly bigger than six and five. +I checked it out. +The lounge is fourteen by ten. +The bedroom is thirteen nine by nine instead of eleven by eight. +That kitchen's thirteen by five, that totals eleven by seven. +Neither here nor there is it? +No. +None of it's much difference. +It's only a diff er it's a matter of two feet here and +Yes. +But then I don't mind . +I don't mind living upstairs or on the ground. +Well I mean if they've got the key to both might haven't decided on both of them you might as well go and see them. +Yeah. +Both of them. +See which one you like the best or if you like them at all. +But as it's got that financial package +That's Cornerstone? +Yeah. +Don't know whether the same applies to the other two. +it. +The financial package . +With Cornerstone? +Cornerstone. +Doesn't actually say that in Pantiles +No +Oh. +Just have to ask . +Yeah. +But actually the one at Cornerstone is fifty pound cheaper than the both of them at Hansard. +It is! +Fifty pound. +One's nine nine fifty and one's nine nine +five, yeah. +So it's forty five pound different. +Well that's a good way, if you think about it he's got, he's got four flats there hasn't he? +Oh yeah. +Four flats at thirty thousand. +That's a hundred and twenty thousand for two houses. +They could be sixty thousand apiece. +Yeah. +Whereas if he had, if he sold them as separate houses he'd probably get forty thousand apiece. +Yeah that's just Yeah. +Forty five thousand even apiece. +Yeah. +But he's making the money by selling them as flats. +Yeah. +The only difference is he's had a few thousand extra because it's got two kitchens and two bathrooms. +partitions and +Yeah true he's had that yeah extra fittings. +But apart from that oh an extra bath instead of the other bedroom +Yeah. +Yeah. +and erm another kitchen instead of a dining room or something and that's the only difference. +Say three four thousand probably. +For the extra bits and pieces that's all. +Yeah. +I don't know how many of them there are. +Whether they only had four flats or whether there's a flat on another block and another block of fours down the road. +I mean I don't know. +Only assume there's you've got that one block. +Well there might be four blocks of four or I du n no. +No I don't think so. +Not enough space for them. +No I don't know. +I mean you know the area better than me. +Unless they've knocked them garages down or something +I've no idea . +I know them council houses aren't usually but I mean I can't visualize how much land there is. +I only know that by going to school and +Yeah. +where they are. +Yeah. +Probably should have gone the other way into town but +that +Eh? +Neither here nor there. +Well you could have gone sort of like round the Rainbow and that way on. +That's what I meant. +the bypass that end of town would have been perhaps a little bit clearer. +If you look at the first it might help you to decide whether you like +That's it. +Whether you wanna go and see it. +Whether you wanna go and see them or not. +Whether you like the positions. +I mean we know where Sefton Avenue is and we know that's +Well we know where it is. +a nice house. +Well we don't know really. +We haven't seen it have we? +Well I mean I mean +Yeah but we haven't actually looked ins +No but I mean I know which house it is with that one, and you do don't you? +I think so yes. +Well I think so as well. +But it would be nice just to go and have a quick check. +Oh I think, just to make sure that +Just to make sure I like it. +Or +it is the house that we're thinking about. +We think it is. +You may not like it. +I said as soon as I see it in the paper oh that looks nice. +Where's that? +I mean not sure. +is it? +Or is this the one round the other end? +It's that one. +It's up here. +That one there right on the corner yeah? +Yes. +That's it. +I thought there was a separate but it's not, no it's not is it? +Think it is. +It's an older property. +Got the double glazing. +Alright. +Looks nice. +Nice house though isn't it? +Yeah it's an older, more solid house. +You know sometimes I like as I say they've got +Yeah. +Yeah Yeah true. +Very true. +they've got erm +Very true. +Yeah it's a nice house. +And this is a back, the back door +Oh I see. +Yeah. +this one because you, there's the back view look I mean that's that's a back door isn't it? +So you have the downstairs back and the the front stairs go up to the can't actually see That's definitely the back door. +There's a parking space as well. +Oh yeah it says allotted parking space. +We have made him an offer but he's not very keen. +I don't think, I don't think he will. +He's not like that. +It looks as if he's not very keen on the price we want to pay. +He said he knows the market's low and he'd rather wait. +But then we wouldn't be able to afford it if the market goes up and +That's right. +same time . +If it's on, if it's on the market for a long while. +He can have it on the market for a year or so. +Yeah. +And he's and he's +He's got you there and +Well at the moment he's got us +Well that's it. +I mean we're paying two hundred and fifty pound a month so at least he's getting that coming in. +But then you can really have a mortgage for that. +and the thing is as well +No. +But at the moment he's well he's not come back to us with any answer from our offer at all so we're we're presuming that means no so we thought we'd better start looking. +Oh and if you're paying that kind of money you could afford a mortgage couldn't you? +That's it. +Thereabouts anyway. +Yeah it's it's not much more. +And Stuart's been and enquired and it wouldn't be much more for a small property. +When the market lifts then you'd . +That's it. +There's not a lot more in here is there? +There's a bedroom, it's very +They don't make them any more do they? +No. +They call this the bedroom do they, or ? +Yeah. +I mean it's quite a good +This bedroom's got the bay window. +They've got security locks same as ours. +Security locks like like we've like we've got at home. +Yes. +Yeah. +can't you? +Quite nice . +Mm. +Don't think +No. +Quite like the ceilings. +They're different aren't they? +Yeah, mm. +Quite pretty. +You've got erm point behind where you could +Mm. +In burgundy. +I don't know what other colours they had . +But it's reasonably good quality. +There's an airing cupboard Probably got a dead body in there. +I watch too many mysteries don't I? +Cooker goes in there and the washing machine in there. +Yeah. +Nowhere for a fridge. +Well you'd have to have it sticking out round. +This is a bit silly isn't it? +Not having any room for a fridge anywhere. +The cooker would have go in there and the washing machine in there. +Washing machine in there. +No fridge. +No he hasn't thought about it very well has he? +I'm afraid it would have to be sticking out. +Is it, is it a tall fridge? +Or is it just an ordinary worktop one? +No just an ordinary fridge. +There isn't a fridge. +Well there will be . +Just an ordinary one. +what the other ones are like. +Unless you, unless you get the fridge in the cupboard. +Oh this is just exactly the same only the other way round. +Same, the same but opposite. +Yeah. +in the cupboard +Oh yeah. +Oh that's +It hasn't got a sink in this one. +It hasn't got a toilet either. +Or toilet. +It's all been +Er actually it has been broken into, this one. +Oh no. +We looked at it outside and and the window +It looks like it yeah. +at the back there is broken. +somebody's been helping themselves. +fire alarms keep though don't they? +Number seven. +This is the . +? +Yeah. +Yeah you see your washing machine. +Cooker that +Oh I see. +This is different isn't it? +Yeah. +Got a bit more space. +Yeah. +See you could have your cooker one side and your washing machine and fridge, washing machine under there and fridge there. +So what you've achieved is this piece over the stairs. +Yeah. +Mm. +I said the one upstairs was bigger. +Yes. +You said it was bigger didn't you? +Yeah. +I was reading the things and I said it was a bigger upstairs is, are bigger than the downstairs. +It's better cos the other one's a little bit of an alley isn't it, the kitchen? +Yeah. +Yeah. +It's quite pleasant that is. +Yeah you see it's bigger cos the bedroom +is a bigger bed bigger room altogether. +Goodness. +What a difference. +Oh there is a difference. +No this is the living room. +Yeah. +This is the living room here. +Yeah that's right. +This is the bedroom. +But even so +But even the bedroom's bigger. +Oh crikey that's a big bedroom too isn't it? +It's bigger. +Most definitely. +Yeah I said +So you'd have +It's a lot better. +Yeah. +Yeah. +I could tell by the you know the details +Financial +it just seemed that +Yeah. +The way they were reading. +Yeah the way it was reading. +I said to Stuart I'm sure +Yeah. +the upstairs is bigger . +He said that can't be. +But you've got the hall and that underneath you see. +Yeah it's the landing and everything. +Underneath us yeah. +Yeah. +It would be quite pleasant up here. +Yeah. +I like this one, I don't like the downstairs one so much. +No I like this much more. +What colour's the bathroom? +the bathroom's even nice. +It is isn't it? +I don't know why but it just is. +Yeah. +Yeah I prefer this one definitely. +I do. +Yeah I do. +What's this little cupboard? +It's quite big as well isn't it? +Yeah. +You could put your hoover and ironing board in that. +Yeah. +Cos they don't think of those things do they? +No they never do, do they? +Yeah I prefer this one to downstairs. +It's much better. +I do. +I do. +Yeah. +You've also got the loft there you can shove +Oh this one's locked +rubbish . +Well that one actually's not advertized so it might have gone. +Oh. +we've only seen well we've seen advertized six five six and seven +Numbers five six and seven isn't it? +but that one wasn't +Oh right. +That wasn't +well there's no details in +That's probably sold then because if I had a choice of four I would take the upstairs one wouldn't you? +Yes. +said. +Yeah. +Let's have a little look how it goes again if I may. +Cos I haven't seen +I like the look well I like this one if out out out of all of them +I do. +Yeah I do. +this is much more much the nicer. +I like it very much. +Yeah I like it. +Much the nicer. +As I say you've got plenty of room to have your +there's room +You know, you've got your washing machine goes in here the cooker there your fridge here. +Yeah. +Yeah. +You could get it all in there wouldn't you? +You'd get everyth , you'd get your cooker cooker goes there, fridge here, washing machine under there, you're +Yeah. +You're away. +Plus it's a little bit +Yes it's more +Yeah that other one was a bit narrow and +a bit more elbow room. +Yeah. +I like this one. +Yeah I do. +I definitely much prefer this one. +And I say the rooms are bigger as well. +Yeah, it's a good size. +Yes they are. +Oh yes I definitely like the upstairs to the downstairs. +And what number's this? +Seven. +Seven. +Mm. +This is much better you can almost see your furniture can't you? +There's room to put it in. +Yeah that's it. +afford this +Yeah. +Yeah. +any of them. +I like this one. +I like this one better than the others. +Yeah. +I definitely +That that +Yeah that's, when I was reading the thing I said to you somehow the upstairs seemed much better. +Yeah. +Cos it's quite a big . +It is. +It is a nice size bedroom. +Have you got +Yes. +wardrobes and dressing tables? +So you'd +Mm. +Quite pleasant view as well. +It is, that's it. +It's not likely to be over well actually I don't we don't know if they're gonna be building there. +Well I think you'll I think you'll find you'll get buildings +Eventually. +eventually round the back. +It would be a good start wouldn't it? +Yeah. +Especially if you can get the right price. +Well I certainly, yeah, I certainly like this one. +When you say you've had what sort of figures are looking well, can you achieve? +Do you know? +Thirty two thousand. +Thirty two and a half maximum wasn't it? +Mm thirty two and a half at a push. +So really you just wanna get something as cheap as possible and +Yeah. +Cheap but nice. +Yeah. +Cheap as possible but +That's it. +you want a bargain. +And this one's, as I say it's twenty nine something so I mean it's it's about right isn't it? +Mm . +Yeah and there are all sorts of ways you could . +You could either go in with cash . +Do you have any deposit at all? +No. +? +No. +I definitely like this one. +The benefit of this one as well is if, let's just say we, that you knocked him right down on his money force as cheap a buy as possible then ask if you can do a hundred percent. +Mm. +Providing it's providing it's providing it's not damp +That's right. +new roofs and everything. +I mean you'd have no problem with this. +No. +None at all. +No problem at all, no maintenance at all . +Right, looks good. +It does yeah. +Yeah. +Alright. +I definitely like this one. +Yeah. +So we could work towards to knock him right down. +Cos then obviously when the market lifts it's then that's where you're gonna gain. +Gain. +Mm. +Mm I definitely like this one so +Well it's a good size isn't it? +It is. +Much better. +Surprising really. +Only that +Yeah. +extra foot more. +That's why I said to you +Extra foot or extra few inches isn't it? +Yeah. +Just makes all that difference. +Yeah. +Just that extra what, eighteen inches? +That's all it is in the kitchen. +And somehow the rooms downstairs the bay. +Yes. +Yes because of the bay. +Yeah it makes makes that much difference. +Yeah. +I like the colour best up here. +Yes I like the colour better. +Another thing you've got a window in the bathroom. +Mm. +Yeah. +Mm. +Funny down here it's a dark hole. +Yeah down here there's no, no. +the bathroom's quite nice +Right. +I know but in here there's no window at all it's er you've got to have the light on all the time. +Don't you? +Yeah. +It's the way the door is as well. +The door in the other flat is here isn't it? +Mm. +And you've got the bathroom and +Yeah. +The bathroom, bathroom +are here and th there you've got the kitchen and the lounge. +It's turned over . +Kitchen to kitchen to the front. +And the bathroom's +And I mean you don't really need all that space. +It's dark isn't it? +It is dark. +Mm. +Then you have the noise of the fan where upstairs you've got the window. +If you have a shower you can +Yeah. +let the condensation out. +This kitchen's really quite tiny . +It's quite but what I'm I mean where would you put your fridge? +You don't do you? +I mean you've really got to have a fridge in this day and age haven't you? +Oh yeah. +I mean you can't really afford to take a unit out. +No. +I mean +No cos then you wouldn't have enough space. +And you haven't got +You couldn't have your fridge sticking out here so you could go and to get +No you couldn't do that could you? +Somebody hasn't thought, have they? +No. +Cos they've put a separate drawer unit in. +Oh yeah. +So you can't even lose that cos you lose your drawers. +Yeah. +Cos this is a double base. +Mm. +No I think number seven's the one. +Yes. +I do. +It's better than this one. +I like that one. +like being upstairs wouldn't you? +Yes. +Yes. +Well w we said we'd prefer to be upstairs +Well we prefer stairs +rather than have somebody above your head. +And you can make the noise can't you? +Also as well +We work, we we work shift work so I I mean you know we get up at half past four in the morning and and if you've got people trundling about above your heads all hours of the night it's er +Oh god. +How are we gonna get out? +Erm we're not. +Oh. +Stuart. +Is it a security lock and I'm not turning the key round enough? +No you're not. +Is is there a key in the +No I've got the keys. +No there's no key +Erm +Can you hold it here so it's security keys and I haven't turned it round the other way. +Mm. +Do you feel like jumping out the window? +Oh dear what a pity. +Never mind we'll just have to stay here the night. +Yeah. +Oh well done. +Window, oh we've done it. +I think it just needs a bit of +Maintenance. +a bit of something on it just to +Yeah. +key. +what is it? +Something forty . +UB forty? +WD forty. +WD. +Yeah. +Ah that's it. +Oh I wonder if it's going to yeah. +It's it's the security thing isn't it +Mm. +turn it right round the key it should +Yeah it's not +It needs +It needs, just needs a little bit of attention. +Just, yeah. +That's to open it and that's to lock it. +Take the key out and that should lock it now. +Yes. +But now it should yeah it does. +Yeah. +It's been just lying here. +That's now locked. +You won't be able to shut it now because of that . +Oh right. +You could leave it open that way. +If you leave it to there then that will click then then you'll be alright. +That's handy cos to shut yourself out. +No. +Not if you've turned it that way cos then you won't be able to +Ours is actually a new house. +It was but er the market was so low that he decided not to well I don't think he could get a buyer actually, it's just stood there so he he he let it out rather than have it stood there with the option for us to buy it but I say now the prices are lower he's not keen on selling it at that price. +And I'm not prepared to go on paying three thousand a year renting it to give to him when I could be buying one myself. +Yeah. +Mm. +I mean three thousand a year to rent one's a lot of money really. +Mm. +Hallo there +Oh hallo yeah, sorry about that +a bath and I was soaking in there for ages. +I wasn't quite decent and I thought well I'm not letting people in when I'm not decent +Oh no . +I mean, please excuse the mess won't you. +Doesn't matter. +If you'd have let me in I could have washed your back for you. +No no no. +No I can manage on my own thank you. +Fair enough. +Fair enough. +Right. +Sorry to intrude on your on your privacy. +That's okay. +But er there we are. +That's the kitchen is it? +Economy seven . +it's dark in here. +bit sort of dark +Yeah. +It's not normally. +Nice size kitchen isn't it? +Yeah that's alright isn't there? +Yes. +If you can imagine it without the boxes it +Yeah. +Cos you're packing up. +for a flat it's er +Yeah. +It's a nice size. +It's a lovely size kitchen. +you? +Oh yes. +What act what actually does the price include? +Does it does it +That I couldn't tell you. +Is the cooker included or not? +No. +No. +That's +That's, that's yours is it? +Doesn't, doesn't say. +It just says a cooker point. +Cooker point. +Yeah. +Yeah. +Yeah. +All the units are obviously ? +Yes. +Yeah. +Oh yes, yeah. +Are they your carpets? +No. +Okay. +And +So the carpets may be as well. +So we might get might get the carpets in as well. +you'd have to negotiate on that one with Mr and Mr . +Yeah. +talking about your home. +The carpets +Everything that is here is mine with the exception of the carpets. +Yes. +Right. +Shall we go, is that the bedroom through there? +No that's the bathroom. +Oh right. +Do you want to come? +And is that a store cupboard? +That's that's the airing cupboard through there. +But it +This is the airing cupboard in here is it? +it doesn't air. +I'll be honest with you, it doesn't air. +No. +It's er very cold in there. +Well it's good good, got a well lagged tank. +Yeah. +Which is not a bad +Yeah that is it. +That's what he said he had to +That's not a bad thing in a way is it? +No. +It's better than having the water . +They actually took they actually took the front off so that the water would get hotter. +Erm and it didn't work and you know +Mm. +I thought then I'd be able to use it as an airing cupboard but it still didn't work but it's like you said it's because it's got such a good +Yeah. +Yeah. +Yeah. +And it does, once you've actually heated the water it keeps hot for so long it's amazing. +Ours is like that isn't it? +Yeah. +Yeah. +Where we are now is +We've got a similar one on ours. +Yeah. +Mm. +But it's a good store isn't it? +For your ironing board and cleaner and +Yes it's quite large as well isn't it? +Mm. +Yeah. +I I mean you can put anything in there really. +Yeah. +I mean I did have some of the boxes in there until I sort of, thought while I was sorting things out. +Yeah, yeah. +The bathroom +Yeah that's the bathroom in there yeah. +Oh it's a nice little bathroom as well isn't it? +Oh that's not too bad either is it? +No. +No it's pleasant. +It is isn't it? +Yeah. +Isn't it. +Yeah. +It's quite +Very pleasant. +Yeah, it's quite nice. +Big enough. +Yeah. +I like the colour as well. +Yeah. +Yes it's a nice colour. +It's a warm colour. +Yeah. +That's right. +Mm. +Nice. +Yeah this would be terrific. +Yeah that's alright. +like we've got the, quite, similar lot +Yeah. +Same as we've got at home. +we've got already. +Feels warm in here as well. +Yes. +Do you have any problem with the heating? +Or +Erm the bedroom doesn't get as hot as I would like it +Yeah. +but then I have circulation problems so I do feel the cold. +Yeah, yeah. +Erm but here in the kitchen it's lovely and warm. +But but it's quite, it's a warm it's a warm +Yeah. +I mean that heater is not on full, not on full power. +That's quite good isn't it? +like ours. +That's very much like the one, I mean ours is on about two or something like that and +Yeah. +We have ours on two and it's ever so warm. +You go in there in the evenings you know when it's been when it's been off and +Yeah. +As I say I mean well because I do feel the cold I suppose I have to have more heat than +Yeah, yeah. +a normal person but er +Yeah. +Quite nice really isn't it? +Yeah I like this too. +The bathroom's a bit chilly but once you've put that heater on and shut the door for a few minutes it's +Yeah. +Yeah. +it's lovely. +Yeah we've got one like that, I know. +That's not my artwork on there, that's my little niece's artwork. +space under there as well . +Yeah there's space under there for bits and pieces. +Yeah. +And it's amazing actually what you can get under there. +Ooh look at this. +That's a nice size bedroom. +It is a nice size isn't it? +Yes. +It's +Eh? +quite a big bedroom. +That's a smashing size bedroom isn't it? +Mm it's a very good size. +This is where you isn't it? +Mm. +Oh that's a lovely big bedroom isn't it? +Yeah. +And you've got the heater here over in the corner as well so it's gonna +Got the heater yeah yeah. +air it through. +Yeah. +Yeah. +Cos you don't always want it hot do you? +No, we don't like it too hot in the bed, well Stuart doesn't. +He's always well I'm always +cold and he's always boiling. +If I have the heat up very high in the bedroom he can't sleep. +I'm impressed aren't you? +It's ever so nice. +Very. +It is lovely, yeah. +Have the oth is there another flat then above this one then? +Above. +Yeah that's a bit smaller. +Yeah the door there isn't it? +That's a bit smaller. +Mm. +Do you hear them at all? +Erm sometimes if he's been out very very late and I'm still up and he's come home after a heavy night drinking. +I mean I'm not saying he's alcoholic but he goes out with the lads and he you know he'll he'll sort of thud up the stairs. +Mm. +But then he'll apologize the next day. +Man after me own heart. +You know I mean other than that, no I mean it it's not as if +Yeah I was gonna say same. +this one. +Oh probably, probably. +If he goes to the pub Stuart would probably know him anyway. +Might do yeah. +More than likely. +No, I mean it it's not as if you hear the telly or +Oh I see, these are his stairs. +That's the stairway. +That's his stairs, yeah. +Yeah. +Yes. +His door's just there isn't it? +Yeah. +That's right, yeah that's +Yes that's his door there and +Yeah. +that's his stairs out. +But the upstairs one that's the kitchen's a bit smaller. +Erm and instead of the bath in the bathroom he's just got a shower up there. +probably is wardrobes there. +I must admit I like a shower but then again I do like the chance to have a bath now and again +bath every, every now and again yeah. +Yeah that's bigger. +Erm which is why I went for the downstairs cos I had a choice of either. +But I went for the downstairs one because of the bath. +Yeah, yeah. +Yeah be nice. +It's nice. +It's a nice size. +I mean we've just been to look at some others and upstairs and downstairs . +But the upstairs one in the other one was was +Was bigger than the downstairs. +Hell of a lot of difference really, it's surprising just a +Yeah. +I mean I must admit I've looked at some other flats. +Erm and one I looked at I couldn't believe it. +Erm I mean it was a top floor flat. +And so I mean you had to sort of go up several flights of stairs and you walked in and it, it looked lovely. +Thought oh this is nice it erm it ha it hadn't got a separate kitchen, it was sort of like a kitchen diner +Yeah. +Mm. +but it was very big. +A studio. +Mm. +It was very big. +I thought oh well this is lovely. +Walks into the bedroom, well you would have hardly got the bed in there never mind about anything else. +And er there was a hand basin in there and when you went into +In, in the bedroom? +In the bedroom. +Yeah. +When you walked into the well what I would call a cupboard but they classed it as the bathroom. +You'd got the toilet there and behind the door, I mean you had to sort of squeeze yourself and shut the door, and behind the door was a shower. +You're joking. +No shower curtain mind you. +Even so, no room to swing a cat. +Terrible. +It was terrible. +Yes. +This is nice though. +I like this. +Yeah I like this one. +Very much. +Yeah it's a nice, just a nice size. +Do you know who the builder is? +It says here local building. +Erm well no all I know is Bates and Dack but they didn't actually, but I mean yeah they put it together. +They, they renovated it. +They they they +That's right yeah. +They renovated it. +they re, revamped it or whatever. +allocated parking. +You just park in the road or? +No, no there's the gravel down +There's a space down +the side is for parking. +Oh good. +So you've got your own bit. +Oh yeah. +Yeah this one, I mean upstairs hasn't but this one has. +And is there anything there, I mean can you dry your clothes out there at all? +No. +There's no line. +Can't get over the size of this though. +I think I'd probably put my wardrobes on his, on the stair wall. +That would dampen it a bit wouldn't it? +Mm. +Nice . +I like it. +It's lovely and warm. +Very nice. +yeah. +What is your situation? +I mean, are you renting the flat? +Yes. +Yeah. +So how much notice do you have to give ? +Er a month. +I'd like you to give me a month. +Thank you very much indeed for showing us your home. +Thank you very much. +I'm sorry to bother you. +If you can hear next door's music I can assure you it's not a regular occurrence. +And if you tell him about it he tu , he's in a rock band. +Erm now and again he practises but he usually tries to do it when I'm not here but erm not +seem quite friendly then? +Yeah. +Well we, we work shifts so he could probably do it when we're on earlies and +Well that's right yeah. +And when we're on lates he can do it at +Yeah if you let it, I mean you know he's fair like that. +If you let him know. +We're not really in that much anyway are we? +No. +No. +We work long hours and +Thing is don't you find in th in this sort of environment if you've got, you know if they're nice people you all communicate don't you? +Yeah, you can do things like that. +And that can work to your favour because if ever you have a problem, then you know. +Yeah you can talk and +That's right. +Yeah I mean that's the same as I di I must admit I did have sort of an argument with him once over his music. +We fell out for a little while but I mean,playing loud but I mean upstairs is fine. +And next door to him, number five they're an elderly couple erm and they've got one of their sons living there at erm he's disabled in some way but I'm not quite sure how. +Mm. +But they are very very friendly. +Very friendly they are. +Mm. +I suppose some people might say to them oh you're being nosy but then that doesn't bother me because you don't tell them what you don't want them to know. +No. +That's right. +But it's nice because if ever you're poorly then it's in your welfare isn't it? +That's right, yeah. +They keep an eye +They do tend to keep an eye on me anyway. +Neighbourhood watch.. +It's, well there is a Neighbourhood Watch Scheme down here. +Really? +Yes. +Oh yeah. +No I'm really impressed. +It's nice isn't it? +Did you just want to have a little wander? +Yeah. +I like this one too. +We'll have them both shall we? +Yeah. +One each. +We'll have them both. +Yeah, you can live in one and I'll live in another. +and live in yours . +Nice aren't they? +Lovely aren't they? +Mm. +corner there +Goodness. +Where do you get your carrots from? +Er my nephew has a shop. +Erm in Leverington actually. +Yes +What, just like a shop shop or a? +A shop. +So you got your you got your washing machine under there? +Washing machine and cooker and fridge So of course you could have in here. +Cooker, fridge. +I mean Yeah I say, or you could have a taller fridge. +Oh yeah you could have a taller fridge. +Fridge fridge-freezer up there or against that window couldn't you? +Have it away from that . +I like them like that because what I tend to do with so I like them that big because then I can cut them up into sticks, stick them in the fridge, then if I feel like being naughty not ever so naughty because I'm nibbling at carrots rather than a packet of crisps or something . +But they're a nice aren't they? +Oh yeah and I mean that sort of size +Yeah. +I know. +. Well it's make your mind up time. +Well We've got to see what Mr says first won't we? +They're specially for baking. +I dunno. +I'm not waiting, bother waiting for the desired +I mean with ordinary ones +Well. +Er carrots are fifteen pence a pound but the potatoes th they're different. +I mean those bakers, they weren't very expensive erm but it's ordinary potatoes +nice kitchen. +I think they're probably a little bit more expensive but he is much cheaper than in +Well in Leverington then? +Erm along the main Gorfield Road +But I mean, you can't get those that size where I live. +And I love baked potatoes. +We end up having +That's right. +Yeah. +So thanks for showing us +Yep, thank you very much. +Right. +Thank you. +disturb you again. +No that's okay. +Yeah. +Very nice. +Yeah I like it. +Very nice. +Mm. +Yeah. +It's nice and central +That's it, yeah. +I mean you're you're not sort of right in the centre of town, but +Right in but it's only a few minutes away. +That's right yeah. +You don't have to have +It's up the road and cross the main road and you're in Kingsway aren't you? +You don't need any wheels do you, really? +No. +No. +Which is just as well. +I crashed +You're wheel-less are you? +Yeah I crashed mine. +Put it in the dyke. +Oh no. +Very nice. +I was very lucky actually. +Mm. +Somebody was looking after me cos I shouldn't have got out and I did. +Mm. +It does actually. +I was out with erm an nephew la last night and I mean it wasn't icy but it was sort of getting late and it was cold. +It was slippy. +And he was being silly. +And I said to him if you don't pack it up I'm gonna get out and walk. +Yeah. +Mm. +Cos +And he said well it's a long time since you had the accident. +I said I don't care. +It's still, you know silly little things +No it still makes you very careful. +like that still unnerve me. +A bit of mud on the road and +That's it, yeah. +It was slippy though I mean I noticed that even, you know just pulling away from or something like that okay I mean it's a reasonably car but I mean, you know just a little bit too heavy on the accelerator +You can feel it. +it's very easy you can feel it slipping +That's right. +quite easily. +Thanks very much indeed. +That's alright. +Lovely. +Yeah thank you. +Thank you. +Are you alright? +Are you warm? +Oh I I mean I haven't been I had it on but I put it off because it was +Yeah well you're going out anyway so you +Yeah. +don't need the heater on. +How are you, alright? +Enoch's coming for me. +Three o'clockish. +Oh well. +We didn't have to come. +you see. +We came round to give you a lift. +Oh that's very nice of you but I didn't know whether you were or not and she phoned, no I phoned her and she's going and she said she'd come for me so +Yeah. +I didn't know whether you were coming or not cos you said you didn't know. +Well we didn't know, we weren't sure but +No. +You said you would be too busy. +Well we didn't know what time when we +What time we were gonna be viewing houses but we've been to see two. +Where? +Oh yeah I think, think just finished meeting me and they're . +Have you heard from the people yet? +No. +Well th er you have to wait till you hear from them really before you do can you? +I don't know whether it's +Mm? +Whether it's what? +Well you can't just leave it and not bother can we? +No I know but I thought they'd, you know? +We thought there'd have been some response +I thought they +by now but there hasn't been. +There hasn't? +Did they say they'd come and see you? +Yeah. +And they haven't bothered. +Oh I wouldn't . +Mm? +And he hasn't bothered. +Well time yet isn't there? +Well we thought we'd better get looking. +Oh yeah, you might as well. +You might as well. +Well what have you seen? +Where you been? +Albany Road and New Drove. +New Drove, where's that? +Down near Queen's Boys +Oh aye, down that way. +Yeah I know. +That one. +Oh! +A new one. +Yeah, brand new. +It's a flat? +Mm. +They're both flats. +They're both flats that we've seen. +Well is it upstairs or downstairs? +Well there's one of each but we prefer the upstairs one, it's nicer. +I didn't like the downstairs one. +I didn't like the kitchen. +It was like a passage weren't it really? +It's a funny little +It was a small kitchen wasn't it? +funny kitchen. +There's no room for any +No. +well there's room for a cooker and a washing machine. +Is it, there's nobody in it? +It's it's it's empty? +Brand new. +Mm. +Yeah brand new empty. +Nobody's been in them yet. +And how how big? +Is it the whole hou I mean how, what half the house? +No. +No. +Well the upstairs half. +Upstairs half. +Yeah. +Well there's a h that's two houses there, there's four there? +Yeah. +There's four flats altogether in that block. +I see. +There's one bedroom and a living room and a kitchen and a bathroom and it's qu they're quite sizeable really I mean they're not +You're quite impressed? +Mm. +Well the upstairs one's certainly much much better than the downstairs one. +Yeah we haven't, we liked the upstairs one very much. +Is it? +Yeah. +The upstairs one +And we can get a good package on that you see. +How do you mean? +Well he he's wanting to sell them. +Yeah but I mean what do you +And he'll either you can either knock he'll ei , you can either knock some money off, which he'd accept whatev ,mo most or he'd pay your deposit for you. +Oh. +And what's that? +Well I'm if it's full price thirty thousand, that's three thousand pound innit, near enough? +Yeah well fifteen hundred. +Five percent is +Fifteen at five percent. +Oh he'd pay fifteen hundred for you? +What +Or or he'll knock it off the price if you want to. +Oh. +Well that doesn't +You can get a good deal with him because +Yes. +he wants to get, he wants them sold now he's built them. +Yeah. +And this is the other one is it? +What this is a house is it? +That's a flat as well. +No this is a flat as well? +they're both flats. +Yeah. +That's a downstairs one. +A downstairs flat. +Downstairs flat. +In an old house? +. +Yeah. +Older, yeah it's an older house but it's been completely +It's been +Yeah. +builders ren made it into two separate . +Is it nice? +Mm. +Yeah I think I like that. +It's the older one I know but +I think they're both nice. +The bath the kitchen's nice in that one though isn't it? +The kitchen's nice +What, in this one? +Yeah. +It's a lovely kitchen. +Yeah. +It's been done out nice and there's tiles and there's nice coloured units and that. +There's some lovely lovely units in that one. +And would there be any erm difficulty in getting a mortgage with this one? +Well I don't think so. +No, they're quite happy to lend Stuart the money as long as it's not more than thirty two which that isn't. +Yeah. +And we'll probably knock him down anyway because say there's +Yes. +properties aren't going. +Where's this? +Albany, where's that? +Top top of Chase Street. +Behind factory . +Bottom of Chase Street. +Bottom. +Ch Chase Street, now where's that? +Where, Rutland Arms is on the corner. +It's right on the end of that. +Oh oh off Lynn Road? +Oh aye you're right in town then? +Yeah. +Yeah. +I say there, there +Interest you? +I've seen that before. +Oh have you? +Mm. +I was gonna rent it. +Are you making a cup of tea? +Yeah. +I'm making you a cup of tea. +Oh right make +We're desperate. +We've not, we've been out since about eleven o'clock and not had a drink. +Ah! +Haven't you been to the +We've been in we've been in the estate agents and +Oh. +seeing houses and +Well there's biscuits there, there's a c a bit of cake Ann. +I made a coconut cake but er er I put some coconut icing on it pink. +But the pink went a bit +Well the cochineal was a bit dry so I put some water in and boof +out it came. +So you, it's got red icing on it. +But you can have it if you like, you know. +You can have it if you like. +Mm. +Or there's some biscuits. +Or there's some Ryvita. +Sheila has lost three and a half pounds this week. +Oh lovely. +Isn't she doing well? +And well she's that chuffed with herself last night +She's so, done really well hasn't she? +yeah, no she won the fruit. +Have this heating on. +No it's alright. +Sure? +Erm +It's not cold outside it's lovely. +No it's quite mild. +No it isn't cold. +I mean I had the heating on to start with and oh I thought this is ridiculous. +I mean +Yes. +I may as well save my ga +That's it. +cos it's gonna cost me Erm she won the fruit. +Now what they do is each of them takes a piece of fruit each time they go +Mm. +I mean this is quite a good idea actually. +An apple or an orange or something. +So the one who loses the most weight wins the fruit. +And she got the fruit. +Wins it. +Oh that's definitely an incentive. +Oh lovely. +Three and a half pound she lost and she lost more than any of them. +lovely . +Some of them's one of the women had gained a pound. +Oh dear. +Had gained a pound, so you know +So I mean she's over half a stone now isn't she so that's nice for +That's right. +That's what she say. +I said good girl, keep going. +Yeah. +Oh I'm going to she says. +Mm yeah. +But I mean that makes a difference Ann doesn't it? +It does. +Eh? +Mm that's smashing. +Yeah she's right chuffed with herself. +Right chuffed with herself. +I'm trying to wash my hair, but I daren't do, I'll do it tomorrow +There you are dear. +Erm +Pop that down there There you go. +Bet you're ready for that. +Yes +def definitely ready for it. +Definitely. +Definitely desperate for it. +Yep. +I'll leave yours another minute. +I'm desperate. +Ah! +Mum's got some cake in there she said if you want a bit. +cake at home. +Fair enough. +Just thought you might be hungry. +Cheers my dear. +Cheers. +See what I got yesterday Ann. +Oh they're nice. +Three pound. +Oh! +They're lovely. +Like them. +Oxfam. +Not Oxfam . +Look it's even got +Aren't they nice. +a tummy thing in it. +You know, to hold your tummy in. +They're lovely. +How about that! +Three quid. +Three fifty. +They're nice. +Like them? +Yeah. +New pair of trousers aren't they? +And they fit me perfect. +They're smart. +Yeah they've not been worn have they? +You can tell +No, look. +They're lovely. +Like them? +Mm. +Mm nice. +will go bananas. +The Heart Foundation Shop. +Well what's wrong with the Heart Foundation Shop? +Well whatever it is, you know? +It's as good as anywhere. +Sheila doesn't agree with it. +And why not? +Mind it's a pair, it's a tw it's about what, twelve pound pair of trousers for only for +Yeah. +a fifteen pound pair of trousers for +Yeah. +Cos they're not it's not a cheap pair is it? +They haven't been worn have they? +No. +I'm quite happ chuffed with them. +Mm. +Ooh pardon me. +Have that cake Stuart. +No it's alright. +Well help yourself. +Don't worry. +He would. +Oh alright, alright. +. +I had the baby I had the baby in the er in the er verandah all morning. +Oh have you? +I bet they liked it out there. +Change of scene. +I put the two of them in the cage, they went in the cage and they, oh and they get on alright together. +They was chirping a bit and Whiskey's the bully. +Yeah? +And Padley and then I sprayed them and Padley started to wash himself. +Oh! +The size of them! +When he flutter, oh he's very he, oh he's a big bird. +He is. +He was a devil though. +They were alright though, quite happy out there. +Mm +Do you wanna s er at the table Ann? +No you're alright. +That'll do me. +You're sure? +We shan't be stopping that long +Eh? +if you're going out anyway won't you? +Oh you can stay as long as you like. +It's up to you, I don't mind. +No. +We'll have a cup of tea then we'll go home. +Get our tea on. +Liver casserole for tea. +Oh very nice. +Very nice. +Just the job. +I hope so. +Should be alright. +Have you had your hokey thing? +No I haven't that. +Oh it's lovely. +Is it? +It's delicious. +I've eaten mine. +It do you want er do you want +No, no you have it. +Did you have the two bits or the one bit? +Yeah. +I had two with a bit of salad. +With a bit of sa yeah I've got to do salad. +Oh it was lovely. +Was it? +Mm. +Ooh. +Yeah, no, I'm gonna have it tonight Ann. +I erm had baked potatoes last night. +Mm. +What else did I do? +Just had a shower, cor feel a bit cold now. +What did you have last night? +Oh you had tandoori didn't you? +Tandoori. +I don't know whether to give Vera her present today or tomorrow. +What did you get her in the end? +A rosebush. +Oh yeah you said you probably were. +I mean I know, er do you think it's daft? +No, I think it's nice. +Ah but it's a it's a you know a rose, not you know I think I thought well what can you buy her? +Well that's it. +No point in buying her ornaments and things I mean +Everybody's buying her all s . +No! +She's gonna get loads of ornaments. +That's it. +And and you know what she's like. +So I I I mean, but I don't know whether to take it today or you know because she'll get a lot of things given her today. +Or wait till tomorrow night or, Joan phoned this morning and oh I s I saw Tom in town yesterday. +Although I didn't, he he, I didn't have time to ask him what the hell he'd been up to. +Here you are. +Oh I've got some n new cigarettes. +I never brought them in. +What kind? +What they called? +Dorchester. +Dorchester. +They're cheap. +Yeah. +Have you tried them? +Well th they're cheap. +I only got one packet cos they're cheap in Gateway and I thought well if if they're alright might just go on them then. +Yeah. +These are getting ridiculous prices. +Well they are aren't they? +I agree with you. +So I'm, I thought we'll try them. +Dorchester? +Yeah. +Never seen them before. +Yeah. +How much were they anyway? +One sixty seven +Yeah. +kingsize and one sixty six ordinary. +Thought you might as well have the kingsize. +Yeah. +Won't smoke as many if they're bigger. +No. +If they're alright Ann. +That's it. +If they're alright. +Yeah. +tomorrow. +Ha. +I put on this as this rose blossoms each year hope you will too. +And remember this day with joy. +Do you think that's alright? +Do you think that's daft? +Yeah lovely. +No. +I don't know whether to take it with me. +You are coming tomorrow night? +Cos I'm gonna tell . +Oh yeah. +Mm. +You know? +Yeah. +We're definitely coming. +Yeah, we're booked in. +You don't have to come too early only I've got to go at quarter to seven. +But I mean you don't +Well we'll be here. +Oh here's . +Oh here . +You said three o'clock. +No. +It's five to. +No I said oh +Sue. +Pardon? +Sue. +Yeah. +Oh Enoch's staying and oh they're not waiting, I'd better go. +I'll leave you to it then, I'll hear all the gen tomorrow then. +Yeah. +We we'll still be, we won't be going, we'll be staying here. +Isn't no point in going home. +Unless you wanna go home and get washed and changed do you? +Might as well stay here and get washed and changed . +Might as well bring clothes and get ready here and +No point is there? +No. +No, no point is there? +Might as well bring the clothes and stay here as go home, all the way home and all the way back again. +Mightn't I? +Mhm. +I've got her pressy here but I think, I don't think I'll give it till tomorrow night. +I was just thinking you know she'll have that many things to do today won't she? +Yes. +So I think I'll give it tomorrow night. +Come in. +So I feel a bit +This is Sue. +Mrs . +Hello. +This is Ann. +And that's Stuart. +On your own? +Well I know Stuart. +Well it's so nice to mee , Mrs , oh, very pleased to meet you. +Oh yes. +It's very nice to meet you. +Yes. +Yes. +You have met him haven't you? +Yes. +Unfortunately she says. +Oh no that is +So I've had two injections. +What for? +Well they give you one don't they in your bloodstream so they can have a deep scan. +Well what are they scanning then? +My back. +Your back. +Your back. +Yeah. +What are they doing that for? +It's my last one. +Oh to see whether your things are all in place? +I'm going back Yeah. +Oh I see. +So and then they gave me an injection in the back. +Ooh. +Cos I've got a bit er my blood's a bit thick round the scar so disperse the blood. +Ugh! +Sounds . +You're not so you're not feeling so good? +Glad when it's all over. +Eh? +Be glad when it's all over. +Yeah. +That's right. +To be quite honest I could just go to bed. +And +Well why don't, why don't you go then? +No. +Don't bother coming out there. +Then I won't sleep tonight then Jean. +Eh? +If I sleep during the day I don't sleep at night. +Well that's true but maybe, you know and if you've to drink she , maybe you shouldn't drink sherry on top of what you've had injected into you. +Oh I know I shan't have any drink. +And my feet keep swelling up. +I've got my shoes on now, but I couldn't +Do they? +Yeah. +But they don't know what's the matter with them. +Oh. +Don't know why they keep swelling up. +Oh crikey. +Oh dear. +Otherwise your er otherwise she's alright? +Otherwise she's alright. +Yeah. +I'll get me coat. +Yeah otherwise I'm +Yeah well +Mmmmmmm +Not A fit but +No. +No. +not A one but getting there. +Getting there. +Yeah. +Slowly but surely. +Yeah. +No work so +Let's hope they soon get you sorted out. +Mm. +Well they've sorted my back out. +Mm. +Yeah I had my disc removed but took two operations but +Say it'll take you a while won't it, to +Well I had my first operation twentieth of August then I had another one the second of October. +Mm. +But at least I haven't got no pain anyway so +Do they think you'll be able to go back to work? +Yeah, six months. +Six months? +Yeah, February. +Never mind eh. +Mm. +That'll soon be here. +Then you'll have to be careful +won't you? +Be very careful. +Get christmas and that over with. +Yeah. +Oh Ashley's going this afternoon. +I know. +I met him. +But Ashley isn't going tomorrow is he? +I know. +So I hear. +I met him. +She's going tomorrow. +But he's not allowed is he? +Yeah. +Why can't he come? +He's not allowed he told you didn't he? +Well I He told me he wasn't allowed to go nights. +told him that er seeing he's on the sick he wasn't allowed to go. +he's only coming for an hour. +I tell you what he, bet, I bet you he's shitting, oh excuse me +shitting bricks today. +Well you know why. +It's either Maurice going to be there or . +I know. +'s the b the big boy. +They'll +Yeah but they don't +probably both be here. +Well it don't look very good me being there then does it? +Oh that doesn't matter. +Well that's what, that's what his excuse was, never cos he's never been in here. +Yeah but he told me he told me he told +He said told him +him +Yes? +that he's not even to phone the place. +That's right. +told him that, because +Yeah but why don't tell the girls? +Well exactly. +Because you know what, they're up in the air aren't they? +Yeah , can you believe it? +Mm +And why? +Why can't he ph , that's ridiculous isn't it? +I said +Oh well if he wants to know why I'm there and me are you off sick I shall just show him a I've got proof that I've been off sick. +Show him your scar +I've got eight pins I have . +But +Well I know you're off but I mean that +Yeah but here there er +Yeah I know but +and everywhere isn't he? +Well if if said that, and he he he he shouldn't have said it well he's in trouble. +Now I've lost my keys. +No I haven't. +Here they are. +I mustn't forget my keys. +No erm I mean that's s but he's he's gonna feel like a right it'll be funny today Sue. +It will be jockeying for position. +Ah but he isn't there yet is he? +What, today? +Will go? +You don't think he +Well it it's gotta be seen to believe. +You can't say +Well yeah that's true. +until he turns up. +No. +Can you? +True. +But the thing is he he's gonna be ever so, isn't he? +He'll be making excuses all the way round +No I've gotta go . +Eh? +He he won't be there long if he does come. +Well that's it. +That's it. +But I mean if he doesn't and sh , I mean why shouldn't you? +I mean after all these years here I mean you can't well that's +Do you wanna say cheerio? +Yeah. +Bye +Bye bye. +Bye. +Bye bye. +See you Sue. +You'll see them tomorrow. +Th they're coming tomorrow +Yeah we'll see you tomorrow. +See you tomorrow look. +but you know. +Oh yeah. +Well they said,wh when we, last Sunday weren't it? +Yeah when we called in. +I went in and paid my money and they said to Ann +Isn't Stuart coming? +aren't you coming? +You know,be seeing you. +in the office didn't she? +Mm. +She nearly begged us to g , nearly went down on her knees to get us to go didn't she? +Well I'll see you tomorrow then Stuart. +Yeah alright Sue. +Yeah. +We'll see you then. +Yeah. +Yeah. +See you tomorrow. +Yeah. +Just lock up and do what you like to the cat. +You can either leave it in or out you know. +Don't +Yeah. +Yeah. +Okay. +Okay. +Cheerio. +Toodaloo. +Yeah. +See are you coming round tomorrow afternoon Stuart? +Yes mum. +You +We're not going he's bringing his clothes. +We're not going home. +Oh aye yeah Ann. +Are you bringing yours? +Yeah, well there's no point in going home. +No that's true. +That's true. +okay. +Bye. +See you. +Bye. +See you tomorrow. +There we go. +Is that better dear? +Yeah. +That's lovely. +Shall we have a nice cup of tea? +I was gasping. +Especially when that man was +Rabbitting? +Yeah, which I didn't understand any of it. +No. +Pension mortgages and this mortgage and and he didn't really know how er er cos that that foreign Lucy or whatever her name was +Yeah. +that foreign lady was quite amused. +She was laughing when you were asking him questions. +Oh. +as if to say ah ah he's not sure what he's doing. +He's got somebody here who knows . +Instead of just sitting there and quoting all these figures +yeah +and blinding you with science . +Yeah. +Somebody who can ask questions and knew what he was talking about. +Yeah. +And she was giggling away. +She kept raising her eyebrows and laughing. +I was watching her. +Well I couldn't see her cos I had my back turned. +No you had your back to her. +Yeah. +But I could see behind you and she was +Well there you are. +When you do know a bit about it you yes you want to know +Well that's it. +You're not, and you're not gonna be blinded by all these like he was, what was he saying about all endowments are are not unit then you were saying yes they are and +I didn't know what on about there. +I I think he got his +said that. +Oh he knew what he was talking about but +But you were confusing him because you knew, where he's used to just sitting there and telling blah blah blah blah and +Well you see the thing is they they they +And you knew what he was on about. +they quote this unit linked business. +Now it's all +And you didn't want that did you? +well and good a unit linked policy but as I said to you before that if they, if the market crashes the day before your policy is due out you +And you haven't got enough money. +you could, you can lose a th I don't want one. +If the market crashes the day before you take your policy's due to mature wallop. +You can lose a lot of money in a you know, just like that. +But do you think this thing what he was on about, pension mortgage, do you think that would be better? +Was that that PEP thing what's all in the papers at the moment? +No. +Is that what it means? +PEP's different. +Oh. +Is it similar? +PEP's a personal equity plan. +Oh. +Sorry. +Which is different. +To be perfectly honest in my current situation +Mhm. +a pension mortgage would be more advantageous. +Well that's the most important thing isn't it? +At the moment. +Because well I'm not in a pension scheme at work. +But I have got an option to go in it +Yeah. +if I want to. +Mhm. +Erm the only problem is well, even s even, not so much now because because the er a bit better. +Because of the m because of the way pensions and that are are organized now, they're more flexible now I mean, you can go to a job beforehand if if if your company had a pension scheme, you were obliged to go in it that was it. +All your other arrangements went up, went through the window. +Mm. +Erm so it it it it's difficult. +Mm I know you can take them along with you nowadays can't you and into a +You can now take, now now now you can take them with you. +Mm. +Where they used to be frozen and then you started another one wherever you went next time. +That's right. +That's right. +Whereas now +And you ended up with three four d silly little bits and pieces didn't you? +Yeah. +Yeah. +Whereas now you see all the they can put them all into one. +Yeah. +I know you can take them with you now. +Mm. +So in a way I think +And it was a lot less money as well wasn't it? +I mm yeah but that w don't forget +It started +that was sixty five. +Yeah . +The quotation he give was sixty five and as he said which is true they double every five years. +Particularly in the later years there's you know +Mm. +more And that's why I said, when it sounded so low that's why I I still doubt his figures. +I still think two hundred pound a month a thirty thousand pound mortgage it's too low. +And and a cash sum at the end of it. +Still think it's low. +Seems quite doesn't seem a lot does it? +No. +I'm pretty certain +And would you still have to have an insurance on top of that? +You have to have term assurance. +So you'd still have to have +You'd have +you'd have the two hundred pound and then you'd have a life insurance on top? +No no no. +No. +That was it, two hundred and twelve pound +The whole lot? +The whole lot. +Well why doesn't everybody have them then? +Because not everybody's eligible for them. +I know but they didn't, he didn't suggest it to you or why doesn't he say well there is this er er, you said that he didn't. +And he must have known that they're gonna be cheaper so why doesn't he advise people who are starting out to take one of them? +Didn't ask +Rather than a +Didn't ask the questions. +I know, exactly. +But surely that's +He didn't he +his job. +If he's trying to find you the cheapest +He's not doing his job. +Basically +Exactly. +he's not doing his job. +Because a young couple going in well even in our situation, you haven't got much money and you want the cheapest thing for the best we you know. +But he never suggested it. +You said what about a company, what about a a pension mortgage and he +He didn't, he he didn't ask the question. +Which he should have asked. +Mm. +Exactly. +Yeah because it is cheaper and +You see the thing is you see I mean wh wh when this law came out, LAUTRO and all that business came out that, and best advice and all this sort of thing you had to go through all the finances and what people earned and all that sort of thing. +What they've got insurance already erm so on and so forth. +And arrange around those circumstances the best advice package. +Mm. +But he didn't ask me the questions. +He just he just he just +No he just could do an endowment one and that was it. +he just assumed it was gonna be +An an endowment policy, and endowment mortgage and that was it. +He didn't tell you anything else. +No. +Well you see when he said your base is gonna be +I know. +a hundred and two hundred +Ninety six. +and fifteen pounds or whatever +Two hundred and five and then that on a ninety six +And then a percent I could get you a percent off as a first time buyer. +Mm. +That brings it down to a hundred and ninety six for the first year. +Then it goes back up to the base rate. +Yeah. +Not, I know all that's that's obvious. +That's quite clear. +Mm. +But then when he said two hundred and one pounds for a pension mortgage I thought well if a hundred and ninety +That's only five pound a month to earn your pension. +if a hu if a hundred and ninety six is only your base how come you don't +That gives you five pound a month towards your pension which is nothing is it? +how do you get two how do you get two hundred and one pounds or two hundred and fifteen pounds and what with, because of the term assurance on top. +That's fourteen pounds a month term assurance. +Quite high I think. +What's term assurance? +Don't understand that. +Term assurance is life insurance just on life only. +With no cash sum at the end. +Well if you died you'd be dead. +Well that's fair enough isn't it? +You wouldn't want anything else. +But er throughout throughout the term of my life +And if you died the would be paid. +If I died a lump sum of thirty thousand pounds is payable. +That's it, you'd pay +But I think fourteen pounds a month is quite high. +Term assurance. +I'm tempted, I'm I'm I'm tempted to have a word with Mick. +What and arrange your own? +Well +Or he'd just tell you? +well I, whether I, I don't know whether he would or whether he wouldn't. +I mean he might he might not but then again he might. +He might if I, if I talk to him he might tell me what sort of I don't want to hassle him you see cos I've hassled +No, that's it. +him before . +Not on that sort of thing but other things as well sort of thing and I don't wanna I'd like to know. +Mm. +I'd like to know before you know +You've got to get the right deal. +Yeah. +I, I did two hundred and one pound a month or two hundred and fift okay it sounds cheap but I don't know fourteen pound a month just for li thirty thousand pound life cover over suppose it's the +Yeah but that's not that much a we +I suppose it's the term of years. +It's only three quid a m a week. +Yeah but I suppose it's the term of years as well. +You sort of to sixty five rather than at sixty. +Well that's it. +So that probably makes it but I say without having me own book to check it I can't +Mm. +I can't tell you. +You see you can, you get a lot, you can get tax relief off that or you used to be able to get tax relief. +Well he said you could get tax relief on the whole lot. +On the whole lot, yeah. +That's what he said. +At twenty five percent. +At twenty five percent. +I think you still, I'm not sure whether they've changed the law round or not cos they +Well that's what he said didn't he? +Yeah. +Er you'd be handy for a a tax relief on the whole lot rather than just +Yeah. +part of it. +Cos that you see if you, if you, if you could link up life assurance to your pension you could get tax relief on your life assurance you see? +Mm. +Which makes it advantageous because there's no tax relief on life policies now as there was +There used to be, yeah. +There used to be but there is no +But they stopped it. +there is, they stopped it. +There isn't any more. +Mm. +No, I'm sort of I think he confused himself as well as confusing me slightly +Yeah be because you you confused him. +Yeah. +Because you knew. +Mm. +Rather than somebody as I say like me who sat down there and he'd just quote all these figures and you wouldn't know what the hell he was on about and just, all you, all I would understand at the end is that's what you gotta pay. +Mm. +Which is what most people that go in there +Are interested in. +Well they wouldn't understand all the rest. +This plan, that plan, the other plan. +They only know well you either have this option paying this amount, that option paying that amount or that option paying that amount and which one do you want to have. +Mm. +And and you don't understand any of the rest of it. +No. +No. +You just sit there mm yeah mm no mm well that's the cheapest, that's the dearest and and take their advice which ones the best for you and have it . +And that's er that's all normal people who don't understand any of it that's the way they'd go about it isn't it? +Yeah. +You'd just accept whatever was +See the other thing, I don't know well no I'm not sure you can now. +See if I took a pension mortgage out it would be linked to me lumped into me current pension contract. +Cos I've already got a pension scheme running. +Cos I've contracted out of SERPS. +And also got erm erm what used to be called seventy seven. +Yes Stuart. +Erm a frozen pension with the Pru +Yeah. +linked in with it at the moment. +That's that's that's my pension arrangements at the moment. +Mm. +Mm so I'm tempted er if I'm gonna do a pension +I tell you what you wa who you wanna go and see. +Who I saw when I bought the house at er thing. +Now he was, I know he blinded me with science but he wa , he was really very good and he had his computer there and he went through all these different societies and plans. +Well that's what he's done. +You see that's what he's done. +No but he had I mean he had a screen and er +Mm. +and that was that's along near Maxie's near the post office but it's a +Yeah, I saw him. +Oh the erm the Scots chap? +Er what's his name? +Oh and he was smashing. +And he explained it all to me. +Oh I can't think of his name now. +I I I have had dealings with him. +He he explained it all. +Yeah. +And although there was all these figures and er and he explained what was best, I mean he was purely a financial I mean he he as he said when we went in cos it doesn't make no difference, I I I'm not attached to anything. +I'm here to +No. +But nor's he. +I am here to give you advice. +That's it. +And that's it. +Independent financial advice. +And and therefore I'm not here to sell you this or that. +I'm here purely to find out, you want to buy this council house and and and I'm here purely to find out your circumstances and and what would be the best deal for you. +That's right. +And he went, I mean I was there for blooming ages. +And he went through everything till he found out and it wa I didn't have the abs the absolute cheapest one. +Cos he didn't think that was a because Steven was disabled and that as well and on my money and one thing and another +Yeah. +and and one thing and another but er it I mean mi mine ended up with the Bradford and Bingley, I mean +Yeah well they're agents for Bradley, Bradford and Bingley +Yeah I know but he did say that even though agents I'm not giving you this and then he showed me all the things you know to sort of prove that he was doing it. +But that's wh oh yeah that's who I had. +Yeah. +It doesn't matter what building society you go to. +No well that's what he said, it doesn't but I mean he went through all these and insurance companies and because of my kidney being removed I had to pay, I had to pay higher even though I didn't have to have a bloody medical but I had to pay high because of my +Yeah. +Medical condition. +because I'd had medical Yeah it was cos I'd had all these operations. +You know you had to put how many operations have you had in the last ten years and have are you er receiving any treatment and all that bloody blah blah blah. +And so mine, mine was higher +Yeah. +than er than other peoples which is why he went to all these bloody quotes. +See the thing yeah. +As I say the thing, the thing is as I say it's you you your mor +He sorted it all out. +But he was really good. +Yeah. +Your mortgage, it doesn't matter who your mortgage is with, basically. +I mean you can go to most places and +Mm. +you're gonna be paying +But when you buy a council house it is slightly different in as much as some some of them won't have them. +Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. +Then also, he also gave me I mean I got hundred percent mortgage which you are allowed on, I mean the law says er t the chance to buy so therefore you don't have to have a deposit. +But he also gave me enough to cover all my fees, legal fees. +Yeah. +Yeah. +So I borrowed over what the house was worth. +But that was only because I'd lived in it for a long time and I got a discount so the house was really +Discount. +Yeah. +worth more +Yeah. +than what I was paying for it. +Yeah. +Cos I got a discount so er I borrowed another thousand pound +To cover your costs. +to cover all the costs for the survey for Maxie's and and this that and the other. +Which I think come to about eight nine hundred pound. +Mm. +As I say it doesn't matter what building +Anyway he borrowed all that for me. +it doesn't matter what building society you go to, you're gonna be paying basically the same rate. +Because they're all the same rate. +The base rate's the same. +You, okay one place you can get a percent discount you might get a percent and a half discount depending on your +Mm. +depending on the building society at the time. +It's the life policy +Mm. +that makes the difference. +But to go to somebody like him who knew his job +Mm. +which was his job and and had everything there and he, he patched through to this computer this place and different computers that he had. +Yeah. +Yeah. +And the facility to to get through to. +Mm. +Mm. +That he could get all these to find out what he thought was the best policy in in your +Mm. +as I say because of my health and one thing and another you couldn't just and he, and he was really good he was and explained everything to me I say that +Can't think of his name now but I know the chap. +He was a tall chap with glasses. +Mm. +Yeah. +Yeah. +Ever so nice. +Yeah. +He really you know made me feel I say I weren't sat there like I was with that fella thinking well he don't seem to know what he's saying anyway. +No no. +Which is what the impression I got about him, he wasn't really sure himself. +Mm. +But I think that was partly you floored him because you knew. +Yeah. +Yeah. +He sort of was a bit you got him a bit couldn't say. +But certainly that man that I went to that time he was very very nice and +Mm. +then you could see he'd patch into all these different bloody things and +Mm mm. +and and and I ended up with er a reasonable +Was yours an endowment? +Or just +It was an endowment. +Yeah it had to be. +I dunno why but it had to be. +Mm. +Well I don't know but that's what +When does your mortgage finish then? +My mortgage? +I had it in eighty one, twenty years so another ten years. +So in fact there's still an endowment policy on you to cover that mortgage? +No they were all cancelled weren't it? +I dunno +Oh yeah I signed the form. +So your endowment policy +Everything's all +Ended. +Yeah. +Cancelled. +Cancelled. +Stopped. +Well what about the money? +The money was all . +I don't know. +I just signed forms to say that I was no longer responsible or had any claim on the property or whatever. +And that was it. +I didn't have to pay any more and I didn't, and I was passing it over to to Steve. +I don't know what happened. +Yeah but what about the The life policy was in your name. +The whole lot was in was it endowment? +No I dunno, it can't have been can it? +I don't know. +No it wasn't it was a no it wasn't an endowment. +I didn't pay. +I only paid extra insurance. +Oh just a straight term p policy like I was +Yeah because yeah because, because of my health. +Yeah. +Yeah. +That was it. +Yeah it was Yeah. +Because of my health. +It was a term assurance rather than it being an endowment insurance. +Yeah. +I couldn't, I don't think he could get the other he got that one because of,i in my health you couldn't they couldn't say how long +Mm. +because of my kidney. +The other kidney could go all blah blah blah and this that and the other. +Yeah. +It was just ordinary insurance. +I don't know how much it was. +I don't know. +I mean I only paid a hundred and sixty pound a month but I mean +Mm. +Then I only borrowed twenty odd thousand cos I got a forty odd percent discount off the price of the house anyway. +Mm. +Twenty two I think it was, something like that. +Mm. +You see +And the rent was thirty six pound a week. +And it ended up I was buying it for less money than what I was paying monthly for rent. +Yeah. +Well you would do. +So it was all +It was worth it. +Might as well have done it. +Mm. +Mm. +So I went into it. +Mm. +Mm. +Yeah it it worked out hundred and sixty one pound a month, with the insurance. +So it's alright I mean I paid the whole bloody lot to them, I didn't +Mm. +sort it all out. +You don't pay it separate, I didn't. +I paid to council offices. +Mm. +And they sorted, they forward it I suppose or did whatever they had to do with it. +Mm mm. +Used to pay at the council offices. +different book. +used to go and pay it. +Write the cheque out and he'd just take it in. +Mm. +I could have had it done through the bank but he was always up town anyway so +Mm. +So it didn't make any difference. +didn't make any difference one way or the other. +Mm. +Mm. +So how about you? +You'd have it done through the bank anyway and I'd just pay you weekly I cou might as well rather than monthly . +Mm. +Save you going to the bank. +Couldn't I? +Just give you the money you spends. +We'll see when we come, when it comes down to it won't we? +What we could do financially. +And sort something out then. +Well of course we will. +expect you to pay +But I cert I I I I I ju I it it just sounds you know two hundred pounds a month, just over two hundred pound a month +Sounds smashing dunnit? +Sounds wonderful. +That's what I said, why doesn't everybody have them? +Well that's why I can't believe it. +Well he said go back and tomorrow at least and +And check his figures. +Mhm. +If that's right that's the one you want really isn't it? +Well I I I yeah. +I mean obviously I'd have to pay more er for if I want it to end at sixty. +Mm. +But even then it won't be will it be that much? +To get to get a higher lump sum. +To get a higher lump sum. +But then you see +Would it be that much more? +Shouldn't think so. +Well exactly. +So it's gonna +You see it's +be less than a want two hundred and eighty. +Oh yeah. +I said so you might as well have that and have a lump sum and a blooming house and +And a pension. +And a pension. +That's what I mean. +Might as well have your pension. +when you get to sixty. +Mm. +Say it's only twenty six years and course with a pension see you can increase your contributions. +Yeah. +If if you get a better job and what have you you can always +Better job or whatever or pay rise or whatever you can increase +Yeah you +your contributions into your pension plan +Exactly, yes. +and still, and finish your mortgage earlier. +Yeah. +Fifty five. +Mm. +Or fifty. +Depending on how much you wanna pay. +Mm. +If you wanna pay more into it. +But I still think +Well see what he comes up with. +See what he comes up with, yeah. +See what he comes up with. +And certainly say two hundred and twenty five pound a month it's still worth having. +It's cheaper than we're paying now isn't it? +Mm. +Even if it's two hundred and fifty it the same +Well you'd still +you're gonna have a pension and and a home. +In a way I'd rather pay the same and finish the mortgage earlier. +Yeah well that's it. +You could volunteer to pay two hundred and fifty a month couldn't you? +And pay a higher pension policy. +Mhm. +That's what I mean. +And then and then you've got the option then you've got the further option that if you want to reduce your premiums on your pension you can do. +If anything happened. +Mm. +If anything if if it does You see again and then you see if you're out of a job you see you if you happen to be out of a job then you're not eligible for a pension policy. +What happens then then? +If you get made redundant? +Well. +And you've already got it. +Well, then you have to freeze it. +See that's that's the oth that's another drawback with the pension. +Whereas an endowment policy it doesn't matter. +You you can carry on paying an endowment policy. +So it, you know there's pros and cons either way. +Mm. +There's there's er pros and cons in buying either of tho either of the flats. +You see er that's the thing isn't it? +Mhm. +But you've got to make the decision cos I like both of them very much. +I do. +So therefore you have to make the decision which one, if it comes down to it, would you like to live in. +I mean if we could get that one down at New Drove what is it, twenty nine? +So that's gonna be, say if you get fifteen hundred off it it's gonna be twenty eight. +Call it, it's thirty thousand isn't it? +Yeah. +What is it, twenty nine nine nine five. +You might as well call it thirty thousand +Well say you get twenty eight and a half. +You're gonna get it cheaper the mor the monthly payment is cheaper. +And then aff and then you could afford to buy some blooming carpets. +And with the other one you've got to find a deposit which you'd have to pay back. +But you wouldn't have to buy any carpets. +You wouldn't have to buy the carpets. +And you say we'd gonna have to have a cooker and a fridge and that aren't you? +Well a cooker you definitely, a fridge say we could perhaps borrow that one of mum's until we could afford one. +Or pick up a cheap one. +Unless I say if you knocked him down. +But a cooker's no problem because I know you can go into the Electricity Board and say I'm moving into a new property, I haven't got a cooker and they would, you can get them. +No deposit, just added to your electric bill. +That's a way to because +Oh buying it on some sort of +Oh yeah on er er a financial agreement. +Or look around and see what there is going in the, in the market. +And get a sort of +Second hand one. +no percent free credit. +Yeah. +I mean there's no difficulty in getting a cooker. +Say if we I mean if, if we're paying say two hundred pound a month on a mortgage +Mm. +for twenty eight thousand . +We've got fifty pound a month we can play with and we, to buy +Well that's it. +You could +to buy a cooker over the ne +I might have one before I go home. +Oh. +a wine? +No. +Cup of tea? +Mm, no no. +I'll have a I might have a sliml er bacardi before I go home. +Just one. +I +You can have a diet coke, bacardi won't hurt you will it? +It's not fattening. +Mm it's still extra calories. +I shall be drinking some tonight no doubt and and eating. +What do you want, bitter lemon? +Yeah please. +Ice? +Yes please. +I shall be partying tomorrow night. +Oh are you? +Very nice too. +You alright there? +You alright? +There was a a house, a bungalow two doors from Stuart's mum. +And I popped out to the shop on Sunday the second of November and came back totally and utterly bemused to see them putting a christmas tree up and father christmas in the window and fairy lights all over the place. +On the second of November. +Oh well. +That's a bit late, really. +I mean wouldn't you be absolutely pig sick of them by the first of December never mind christmas . +year I can remember. +Good god. +it was in October. +Some time by the end of September beginning of October, somewhere round there. +they've got christmas decorations . +Oh well I couldn't believe it. +I come back to Stuart and I said it is the second of November isn't it? +He said, yeah. +I said well idiots a couple +There you are darling. +of doors away are now putting their christmas +mine are you see the first week in December . +Yeah cos you get fed up of them don't you? +And they get +December really isn't it? +Well yes but I mean +It is for home . +For a pub is, is fine the beginning of December. +Yes. +You don't want, you get sick of looking at them and they're dust traps aren't they? +I think christmas should start everywhere in the first week +Yeah, not not beforehand. +No. +in the shops before then. +Because I mean little kids are seeing father christmas and decorations +I know. +and they think it's christmas. +Yeah. +then they've got to +Don't know any other do they? +wait and wait and then they get fed up don't they? +As far as putting them up too early as well I say they get all dusty and you get sick of looking at them. +Yeah. +Time a week or so after christmas has come you're you're glad to get them down and out the way. +That's right, yeah. +And then it looks bare. +Then you think oh oh it looks bare . +Yeah, yeah. +You wouldn't er +Wouldn't what? +happen to have er got er pound coin or two spare on you? +I don't think I have any. +No, cos I was gonna pay the butchers which I would have had to have changed a note and you said I'll pay. +All I've got is some coppers for the tin. +So you'll have to change some money up if you want +Oh. +See. +money, I've got money but +But I haven't got any darling change. +Sorry. +If I ask Shirley nicely she might lend me a couple. +Ask me nicely what +Well either that or she'll have to change you a note up. +well I don't have a +He wants to put some pennies in a machine and he hasn't got any. +a little investment in your money box, but I haven't got any money to put in it. +pound coin +But I have got erm what have I got? +You want some pound coins which I ain't got. +Ah. +You haven't got any? +Haven't you got any at all? +Only what's in the till. +Oh dear. +There you go. +One two three four five. +I'll try and give you some back. +Oh do do. +But I can't guarantee that. +Hallo people. +Hallo. +Hallo Stuart. +How are you, alright? +Yes thank you. +Jolly good. +How the devil are you? +Fine. +How's you? +Yeah, probably. +There's you Bob +pint and a half +four. +Course she will. +What, for fourpence? +Four glasses. +How many times that? +Tuppence on each? +Ooh . +Take the whole lot. +Oh well just have to pay for them between us. +Shall I give him two straws? +Yes please. +. +I'll have one, I'll have +We'll share the straw +. +She's ever so greedy. +Do you want a quick game of ? +Oh! +Thursdays play it. +We got a match on Thursdays. +forgot how you do it +Are we? +It's been that long since I played that game . +Lager for you my dear? +Yes please. +Shouldn't have bothered dear. +Fifty p eh? +handle? +Fifty p +A little that's not bad fifty p. +Here, is it easy to lift off, it's not that heavy is it? +Pull it towards you. +Oh. +You see we've got some gentlemen here, they'll do it for you. +Stuart. +Oh it's easy. +It's quite heavy. +No, right away +downwards. +Oh, sorry. +Downwards. +Pull it down. +Downwards +I'm with you. +And mind your fingers. +That's it. +Then keep pulling it towards you that's it. +Oh I'm with you. +There we go. +Thank you very much. +You've done that before. +That's how he knackered his thumbs. +You made me look at you, I've overlowed his +That's how you buggered your thumbs, weren't it, doing that? +I was, I was looking to see that you weren't your fingers and dear. +what I was worried about. +fifties please, in the change or five if you've got them. +Oh, look at all that change. +I can give you the total of +It's alright then, you've got fifty now look. +Hi Harry. +Hello. +Oh, first time I've been out in years on a Friday. +Too busy. +Erm I'll have a +Say, it's not Monday already. +Can I have a er I'll have a pint of lager please. +Another shock I've had today. +Three of you came in Friday either. +No I'm trying to clear the decks before christmas. +Oh. +Three weeks hence. +Another working weekend. +Good. +Well I thought you'd come cos I very rarely get many people in much before er +On the top. +. +Oh. +If you pull the cord on the light, your light'll come on then you'll be able to see what you're doing. +Put the light on . +Over here, over here . +This the other side. +There's a little s cord. +Hello Alan, how are you keeping, alright? +Fine. +Yourself? +Busy busy busy. +Well, that's your problem. +find the timer. +Yeah. +You will go in for these educational +The way I play five minutes. +Pull it in, she ain't pulled +You have to pull that, you have to pull the handle out and it don't start. +Now then, +Right let's have a go. +We'll have a crack at it shall we? +then you pull the handle. +Which one? +This one? +Yeah. +That's it. +Got it? +That's it. +That hasn't worked. +Hey, +Er the keys haven't popped up have they? +No, I think you have to put them up yourself. +No, surely +You do. +it's not manual is it? +It's, well it's not digital yet. +Yeah, now you're on the timer Grace. +Now I'm on a timer +Now you pull the now you the handle. +Which one? +Which handle? +No, I said now you timer +Oh now I pull it. +So you want a stick. +You want a st a a cue. +Yes. +god only knows. +There are shorter ones in the broom cupboard. +Oh. +Oh I don't know about that. +That's +Sorry? +You don't knock the skittles down. +That's the idea. +Ah dear. +Now put your ball up on there +Which one? +Oh white ones? +Yeah. +And where do I go for on there? +You don't. +You missed. +Now the red ball counts double. +Yeah. +And here's your scores look. +Right. +I'm with you. +That's fifty. +Ah +How do you play this? +Oh dear. +while I've got a minute. +Oooh. +Keep your score in your mind cos I'm not sure of it. +Well you've got +You got and one and one, which one do you get this one? +Ah it doesn't matter, we're losing pet. +Oh don't cheat. +That's a foul. +She gets a hundred. +Oh! +Left the table. +Go on then. +What do you mean, left the table? +It didn't. +Well it went up in the air. +It hit the back doors +Doesn't matter. +that's a to her. +Yes it does. +She gets a hundred. +Oh, hundred away. +Hundred away. +I lose my score obviously? +Yeah. +No you lose the score you've got but she gets a hundred. +Yeah well it saves me counting, don't it? +Hit the ball you can see without knocking th , without knocking the other skittle Grace. +Just keep it at that. +She's played this game before, look. +Oh! +Dear oh dear. +Not quite hard enough Grace. +If that had been a bit harder then +Well put your hundred up. +Oh what did I do? +Oh me hundred. +Which is mine, bottom or top? +And what did you get just now? +Hundred. +Well you can be top or bottom. +Yeah, I'm bottom. +Did you get any score just now? +Yes. +What did you get? +Don't think so. +nothing went down did it? +Yeah it did, it went down ooh +What was it? +Er twenty odd weren't it? +Thirty odd, I dunno. +Call it twenty. +Ten here, this side and a hundred up there. +No you wanna be both on the same line, okay? +Well that's what I mean. +Ten then there +Yeah. +and a hundred there? +Yeah. +That's it. +Thirty. +Is that right? +I think I ought Steve Davis. +Yeah, put a bit of chalk on the end. +Ooh dear. +score mister. +thirty forty forty and twenty sixty. +Sixty. +ten. +hundred and ten. +for you Grace then . +He's getting too cocky. +Getting too cocky,. +She's played it before. +not a lot more than me . +played it about once . +Two hundred. +encourages me to make a comeback. +Ooh! +That's the last thing I wanted. +Two eighty. +Two eighty to play for Al. +Just to let you know. +A good player could be out of this easy. +Easy. +I could actually. +I've seen so many people do it. +Ooh. +Oh dear. +Oh dear. +She gets another hundred. +Mm. +I like them like that. +Oh sorry. +You can win this Grace.. +I doubt it, I doubt it. +Red, red ball Grace. +Where are you, on the bottom Grace? +Oh sorry. +Red ball. +A red one? +Oh you've got to put the red one up near this? +Well yeah, I mean there's there's no fast rule about having the red one but it scores you double. +Shirley give her give her a little bit of coaching on the angles and things +Well I wouldn't know Terry. +You know me. +Neither do I. +So he's got a hundred now. +Oh why? +didn't hit the ball. +Ah +Next time round. +I didn't know. +Ah. +I see. +You've got to go for a ball that's on the table. +You've got to hit a ball. +Oh. +Right. +So have I, so I've lost that hundred he gave me? +I went to have a go last time and missed it. +Oh. +red ball . +If the red ball goes down the edge of the white ball? +Oh no no no no. +You have to you you have to make contact +to +As long as you make contact you're okay. +Right. +Alan's got problems. +No, I shouldn't have problems. +I just dropped that silly shot and cocked it didn't I? +yeah. +So you don't go there again. +It's a second chance. +No that's I can't remember where I went after this. +And the timer's going. +Yes, come on. +Don't talk about it, play it. +Time. +It's gonna be crucial at the end of the game. +Oh. +Red ball on the spot, Grace. +And your white +And the white, white on the that's it. +There? +You've got to start again cos +Yes. +So I've got to hit this red? +Yeah. +Yeah. +Just split that nice and soft, not too hard. +Perfect. +Oh you've definitely played this before. +Oh I see. +Now I've got to this one? +You could tell that one +Nice and soft. +Oh! +Oh you didn't of it Grace. +Another goes down. +Do we get any chalk? +Yeah look. +For that fifty pence. +It's in the corner look. +Oh. +Er Trish and Ron lost on Tuesday. +Oh, weep weep. +I weep. +How badly? +Yeah I just thought I'd tell you. +How badly? +Absolute zilch. +Oh. +Who was at who was at fault? +Pardon? +Who was at fault? +What's that, ten? +Pardon? +She skittled at the last. +Did she? +Oh. +Was that ten, yeah. +Ten. +Seven. +Seven. +Mm? +Seven. +Cos your red ball went down it counts double. +I thought a red ball was thirty? +Well if it, it it, down which? +If it goes down a thirty hole, it'll be sixty won't it cos it's double score. +Did er Trish play the table? +Oh. +You know Trish! +Well table first, Ron second. +Oh got a +It's a gentle +I bet we have to buy the I bet we have to buy the umpire a drink at the end. +You damn well do. +How did you guess? +Shirley. +What, table first Ron second, or? +Erm it it's a silly table +Red's gone down. +oh. +Sixty. +Yeah but look at where the weight is though darling. +So you've got to hit that white one. +You have to hit the white one now. +Shirley. +If it was a silly table? +Even if it's a stupid table, hang on +Dead right down +didn't tell Lee. +She didn't say to me., +You've got to go to one side Grace. +One side? +Yeah. +Oh. +Definitely not. +Not there. +Definitely not there. +Let's get serious Grace. +me, cos I haven't got me glasses on. +You know how she You know how +That's it. +If that was it would have been what do they call it? +Take it again foul shot. +You know how they're always shouting at me because I hit them too hard? +Mm. +That was the only way. +Oh what yeah. +If you did that you you'd get nothing. +Like that. +Absolute nothing. +There's a red yours darling. +So slow. +Did John turn out? +No. +Thank god for that . +No it was so slow. +The only way we +Like sort of ploughing through a field or erm yeah +The only way to get a score was to hammer it. +Oh. +That one wasn't bad actually Grace. +Who was that you played? +But it didn't go through. +Tartan. +Oh. +say if you did it slow +Mm. +it, you know? +Yeah. +And you'll have to take time to do Terry . +What was that? +Twenty? +I dunno. +about you putting your score up because I +Well I'll say twenty. +Harold said twenty. +Alan old score twenty +How do you get twenty for that one when it went in that hole? +Argue with Shirley not me. +Shirley said twenty, that's good enough for me. +Er five. +Six. +Alright then we'll compromise. +Is it? +Yeah +Mm? +Oh well they're uncivilized aren't they? +Oh! +Six. +Six. +Not too hard Grace and just keep on potting them down. +Oh well I'll try. +Which is mine? +Do you know? +Top. +You're the top. +Top. +Ooh. +Ooh darling. +You've missed that Six on here? +No. +No no no no no no, no. +On the the other one. +Six on the other one. +No, on the tens. +On the tens. +Six sixty. +Sixty you got, you +That's it. +Cheat you'd have to be cheating or they wouldn't +Well it can't be six hundred odd can it? +Well you can. +My god, what's +Ah! +Ooh! +Well you bollocksed you bollocksed that didn't you? +No. +Gently. +Soft. +Bit harder. +A little bit harder. +. +Just a little bit. +over there now. +Yeah Okay. +Right hand side of the red. +Yes the touch has come. +Grace. +Just a little bit harder. +Oh ooh. +Ooh. +Oh wonderful shot. +Was that good or bad? +Six seven, you got two hundred just then. +two seventy. +That one was worth two hundred. +Yeah, two hundred and +Seventy. +The white in, er white one in there as well didn't she? +Yeah I counted that. +Oh. +Don't rob me. +Now take it easy. +Don't get panicky. +Oh! +You score darling. +Do I? +Oh +That's scored. +Right. +I'll turn that down a bit. +Yeah, please. +What did you think about them? +don't leave me to . +go and get another pint. +I'll erm at the same time alright? +Every time if you miss a shot +Yeah. +totally every time +Put the white one down the red . +Did anybody count . +Six. +Six. +Yeah I'm gonna beat I think. +And then five card nine card brag afterwards. +Do you think so? +Yeah. +Huh! +What makes you so confident? +Just feeling lucky. +What? +What's the matter? +What's happened to your twenty three P? +Oh. +And and a bit of loose change as well. +Tell me about it. +Oh not now Shirl. +Later dear, later. +Er twenty five. +Did you? +No, see you can pull them across here look +Have you had your twenty three P? +Or have you g paid your twenty three P? +Hey! +Not yet. +We had an excuse. +We're, we're on holiday so +Oh well, +Yeah . +It's an excuse innit? +I've got an excuse +Twist to the right hand side of the red. +That's it. +Not far enough. +You're hitting it too hard Grace. +But there again you're getting about ten +Do I have to use the red one all the time? +Well the red's beneficial. +You you you don't, you don't have to. +Oh I see. +But it's double score. +I see. +Beneficial. +So if you sort of went and it should +Who's in front actually? +Grace. +Ooh! +What an excellent shot. +Erm yeah. +Doesn't help you though. +Bloody hell +It doesn't help your score. +Well there's two up there so because she can only get one. +Been conning me. +What do you mean, been conning you? +Oh the red's in play as well is it? +Mm it is. +She's playing for time now you see. +Yes. +playing for time again. +Whoa! +You're in the lead. +Whoops-a-daisy. +Whenever you do that Grace it means a non score. +just rub it in Al, I'm sorry. +Lampposts I call them, what do you call them? +I see us coming second. +Skittles. +All you've gotta do is roll up and you've won. +Yeah you don't have to even put it anywhere. +Beg your pardon? +Good shot. +He's gotta do all the +It's gone up now hasn't it, the +No. +balls are still coming down. +Harold's gotta do all the work now. +I don't well he could catch up. +He could. +Er he had more . +Lot more +If you, if you don't knock a skittle down, Grace, you've won. +Oh. +Basically. +No. +Go for what you can see Grace. +That's what I'm going +You can have a game. +That red's a good +Not tonight. +good . +Oh yes. +When it's quiet. +No no no. +Foul shot. +I never saw that. +No, take it again Grace. +You sure? +I never saw that. +Cheat. +We weren't looking at the time. +Two hundred now. +Not when he's told me he was playing on somebody else's table and not gonna have a game. +I'm not having that. +Oh so vicious +Oh. +so hard, so strong, so powerful. +Foul shot. +Missed. +Don't do too many of them +No good. +don't do too many of them +he'll he'll catch up if you do +I know. +Pardon me. +Five out. +Oh I +Look at that red one on there? +Yeah. +That's not on is it? +Mm. +It's not touching either so you can play it. +Keep away from it Grace. +Miss a shot. +So what do you do now there's no balls on the table? +Pray. +Pray! +I'm going for easy shots . +That's seven anyway. +This one? +Oh no there's one in here. +There's one in here, so +Yeah we were and I didn't know how to go for this fifty one on the . +Or I didn't know where to go next. +Have to have a red +Nearest. +No, oh the red's +There was Tony here like this +He was supposed to be scoring. +Not supposed to coach from the sidelines +No. +and there was him with his finger hanging over the side. +Oh. +white up there. +other two whites. +Oh dear. +Did you get this one? +count it? +No. +Ooh. +How did you hit that one first? +Grace. +You haven't played a single ball off our cushion yet have you? +No. +I'm not that good. +Just try it. +Yeah just try it. +I'll try, I will though , yeah. +at the top there. +It's so easy. +Don't lose your position and you've won the game. +Have a crack at it +Shut up. +If you don't think you can get one just +I will go for, try for that one though +Sh Shirley. +Oh sorry, I'm interrupting, I'm interrupting. +What did you say pet? +That's the one. +Just take the bloody ball. +You won it. +Well I hit the ball +you're winning. +The gate's on now. +Ah. +Ah.. +Ah. +That's it now. +Points for points there,. +He's he's he's he's lost it there. +He's +Erm can I take any? +Erm +Or not? +Nearest nearest white. +Yeah, the nearest white . +Yeah. +His nerve's gone Grace. +You've won it. +Just keep your head. +Not necessarily. +Or something. +Just hit the ball. +That's the way, that's the way. +for a chance. +You'll count it though won't you because +Oh I've counted it. +Are you counting? +Are you counting somebody? +The nearest, the nearest white. +Twenty. +Thirty. +Forty. +Forty will do. +Just roll up to that one Grace. +Just hit the ball. +No no no no the one you can see. +Softly. +That's it. +Do you ever feel as though you're being ganged up on? +Not too hard. +Just roll up +No. +two go down. +That'll do. +Ooh. +No. +That'll do. +Now the nearest, the nearest one. +The nearest one. +Which is that one? +That's it. +I want thirty? +I was playing for that . +Ooh you set them up beautifully Grace. +Look at that. +How do you do thirty on here? +Well count, how many +Three on the bottom. +Well that one, which, which are you there? +I'm on +That one? +Well go there go to there. +And that one will +And a hundred. +to there. +Where? +Another hundred. +The other way, that's it. +Oh. +That's it. +Som someone hasn't got their specs on tonight. +thirty to me you know what you've got +Yeah but you got thirty on +You had seven hundred and eighty. +which makes it a hundred and ten. +Ah. +We're on your side. +We're ganging up on Alan. +You've got another hundred now, so +That's it, got another hundred. +take the nearest one. +Is it alright if I make a comment? +Grace? +Grace? +Take it off the cushion. +Yeah. +Your bound to hit one of them. +round about there. +Somewhere round about there. +Probably a bit here or there. +I've lost now. +Now you can see that one +Put them both down together darling. +Yeah either one down or both down. +Oh I missed it. +That's Alan's problem then. +I've lost haven't I? +go off the cushion. +What cushion? +Ooh clever clogs . +That's what he was waiting for. +Good though, I enjoyed that. +Well have another one then. +I'll enjoy it better than er pool for a change +Clever clogs. +Aren't we? +He was hanging off that red ball for a four hundred at the end though cos +There's not many people get that two hundred +Right then dear. +So you're gonna beat me are you? +Yeah gonna beat you. +You sure about that? +Yes, I'm going to beat you. +No, are you? +I thought you played very well Grace . +Alright? +Do you wanna game? +No. +Do you wanna game . +Oh rubbish Alan +He tells me lies as well. +It's the same rate. +What, for a pint? +Now I'm, I'm gonna play you for the sake of the game. +Alright. +What are we playing for? +He tells lies as well Alan,. +A penny a point. +Don't take any notice . +A penny a point. +Big gambling eh, what? +There you are then dear,. +Five. +Fifteen for two. +My box. +Thank goodness. +two three three four four five five six six . +And I'll have the yellow ones. +The yellow ones? +Just oh bloody hell. +The yellow ones were thrown. +What do I do? +Well I don't know. +Ain't got me glasses either. +Poor old thing. +She lost them. +Got to put two out haven't I? +But she lost them, she . +downstairs. +We won't mention it. +Oh you want a light on Alan don't you? +See where you're putting it. +Shirley. +Straight game? +Yeah, they lost the first one. +Yeah. +And the second one. +I don't know what to do. +Erm because it was a dreadful table. +If I keep this hand I've got now I've got two four six eight ten. +I've got a dozen. +All six cards? +Yeah. +Yeah +I know, but which two? +Ah well. +There you are. +If I don't look out might +So it goes on the four of that, turn that up. +Yeah well I can't tell you unless I've got them can I? +Shall I put them two in?then I've got six. +I'll put them two in. +Well you've got to put your you've got to put your hand down and hope you turn the rest turn up with the rest of the box. +Right two four six eight. +Then oh bugger it. +Top one dear. +And that hasn't helped at all. +Oh well, never mind. +See one play one. +Twenty two twenty seven, twenty eight twenty nine that's right. +You want the you want the you want fifty on three. +You want the yellow ones? +Yes? +Yes. +Two four six. +Put them down the hole. +Well . +Alright now? +Well it don't matter does it +Well it don't matter now. +Er fifteen four ten six two eight. +Oh. +Well at least I got something cos I put two queens and that's what I had. +Ten. +ten. +Did I put me king, the ten +Yeah that's what, that's what . +Yeah. +But I wanted some of me boxes as well I suppose. +Oh, so I done it wrong? +Well it's not what I would have done +But actually +but there you go. +I've got six in the box. +That's what I would have done but +But I didn't know you see, I +Course not, no. +I couldn't work it out. +I think I would have been tempted to do that. +I didn't know whether to put two blue queens in or ten things or +Mm. +Yeah. +a king and queen. +In which case had both. +Oh, it's like that is it? +Mhm. +My box. +Oh god. +It doesn't matter. +It doesn't matter who goes first. +Who goes first if you win the toss? +Shirley says. +What? +Heads or tails? +Tails. +I can't score, I'm useless at maths. +Oh bloody hell. +It's impossible, I can't do it. +And them two go together, them two go together and them two go together. +All of them go together and these two are a pair. +Well what can I say? +Exactly. +I'm useless at maths. +Now don't get too many balls down too many holes at once. +I'll have to take a chance won't I? +Mm well that's up to you isn't it? +Play +Well I've got to somehow. +I've gotta +Jack +Mm that won't help me. +Your +It'd have been better if I'd kept them two. +your lead . +Sixteen. +I'm going to do a Terry now when we play on Monday nights. +Don't do it like that. +Can I suggest something. +Fifteen two +Go on I know I've done that wrong. +Four. +. +Four. +Fifteen sixteen fourteen ten fifteen twelve so it's fourteen +Oh. +seventeen. +Five ten fifteen sixteen seventeen. +Nice little turn that. +Oh bloody hell. +Oh I don't like this, it's not fair. +You're not playing fair. +I am +No you're not cos I didn't know what to put in the box. +You did right. +And bought it +Oh yeah not right for me. +No. +I'd have been better off keeping that one two. +I had two sixes, two queens one two. +Well I didn't know. +Here you are I've got your two queens and hope for your turn up or you put your one to it. +Simple as that. +The queen six and hope for turn up. +That would split, split your hand up totally. +Mm that's why I was yeah. +Yes well I didn't know you see. +If I don't like playing singles, easy as doubles because you only have to put one in and it's easier. +One in yeah. +He's not a gentleman. +I know. +I was just lucky with a turn up though. +That's all. +Just lucky with a turn up. +Come on, stop wasting time. +I think I wouldn't +Top one Mm try seven. +Oh I thought I was then. +I'm a gentleman. +Fifteen and ten. +Twenty eight. +I'm on a run now . +Twenty nine? +No. +I don't think I've got anything. +Fifteen two fifteen four. +That's all I've got. +I've I've got four . +I four. +Oh erm fifteen two four six. +Mm nothing in the box. +Fifteen two and four is six. +Nothing in the box. +Five six. +You've got nothing at all? +Ooh nothing at all. +That's a shame isn't it? +blooming street ahead nearly. +No, not quite. +Well. +Oh it went way out. +Yeah but it was shot. +Wasn't meant that one. +Well it got there. +Yeah. +Is that ball touching Shirley? +No. +It's it's too late to ask I know. +I've got to pay for a turn +How about a six? +No well. +Terrible. +Not getting any hands. +Go on then, I'll take a chance, I mean I'll you thirty for six, no? +Thirty? +Any aces? +No. +No. +Thirty for one. +I ain't got nothing cos I can't get anything. +Two then. +Twenty two for two. +Nine will do for two. +Oh and I'll have one for the last card. +Hang on, two four nothing. +Two and two is four. +Ten jack queen for three. +I can't get a good hand. +Twenty two twenty four twenty six. +Street ahead. +Over. +No. +You are. +You are, you're over a street ahead. +Not quite. +Not quite. +Not quite. +I haven't a chance in hell. +Think we'll cancel this game. +Don't give up straight away darling. +There's plenty of time to go yet. +Oh I don't know. +I've no idea. +Waste of time playing. +One. +That's not very good is it? +No. +Got a seven. +Aye another one, go on put the third one down. +Might as well. +Yes. +Eighteen. +alright. +play though can you? +Six. +I haven't got very many. +two. +I've got fifteen two and four is six, four of diamonds. +Thank you dear. +So I've got one three in. +Oh well there you are.. +That's a bit better. +Are you caught up now? +No, that thirty was meant but not th not not the other one. +I'll be honest there. +That was an an extra. +Am I in a good position? +On your knees is better. +Oh! +I only wanna give you one. +Ah! +Now that was tried for. +That was meant. +I tell lies as well. +I'm walking home. +It was, seriously. +thirty nine isn't it? +Oh it's awful. +Oh dear oh dear. +Thirty nine. +Yeah. +There's four. +Don't do nothing for me. +How many did you get? +I don't know. +Just let's have a look. +No +Yes I can, I can't remember. +No you, no you can't. +Oh I should have kept the other one. +You'll . +Go on I'll take a chance. +Oh bloody hell, every time I've one down +Thirty one for two. +Oh twelve. +Three for two. +I had a two as well. +Oh dear. +Mm. +Fifteen, two +Very very lucky but +Two for six eight ten. +I reckon you've won the box. +Nothing. +I'm glad I I'm glad I didn't listen to you Shirley. +Who's winning? +I didn't say, I just said it was gettable. +No no, yes yes. +I know. +Who's winning? +What do you want? +Two and a one don't you? +Two, two four. +Two six. +No two three six. +Queen king two three six. +I've got eight two four s oh two six oh you should put king six on. +Kept jack queen three and three two. +Your box dear. +Yeah and I would have got nothing. +Four. +Oh yeah. +You would have had four. +Oh admittedly you would have been pig sick when a king would have, but even if the king had turned up you'd have still got the, got a run and fifteen. +Ace turned up you'd have got the run four turns up you get your runs. +Ten turns up, another jack, queen. +Well I've done, didn't do it right did I? +So there, hadn't got any turned up. +Well I mean yes +Didn't I? +There you go. +Oh now I'm definitely not giving you nothing. +It's your box. +Cos I've got a straight run through. +It's your box. +Seven six five four three +It's your box! +Well how, I don't bloody well know what to put in it. +I haven't the faintest idea, look three four five six seven eight. +No question. +Easy. +Oh well it weren't to me cos I probably would have given you the eight +No my, it's your box. +Try a nine. +You know what I've got now anyway so it don't matter. +Oh no I would have played the nine anyway. +Twenty five. +Don't talk about it, do it. +Two four . +Six tens. +What are you up? +Are you gonna do . +Box. +Two in there so +Oh you're putting . +It's no quite easy. +Then you've got the four three four five six seven eight and it's your box play the seven. +They're the same suit, they're close, they'd score. +If it'd been my box yeah it's eight three. +But your box you, you gotta keep four five six because any four any five or any six you can . +Well yeah but I I'm alright now. +I'm cos I can see balls in front of me. +Yeah, right. +So you've gotta keep your four five six and I say it's your box, seven eight has got to be the +It's very easy this. +Gotta be. +Easy. +So we'll try and lead Al with that one again. +Oh sh +I give you that and it's probably a big mistake. +But I hadn't any choice. +I like you. +Thank you. +No, that's not right. +You do, you try doing what you're telling other people. +What, +Thirteen. +No I'm not. +I'm gonna try and work round it. +I don't know, honestly I don't. +That's that's a bad shot isn't it? +But you +I know, oh sorry, yeah. +you're well in front. +Seven. +I'm well in front and I can easy just lose the hundred but I I'll try for it without trying to knock down too many skittles. +There you are, handy little turn up. +Fifteen two six sixteen. +Sixteen. +I didn't realize that the ball couldn't hit the table. +There you are, look at that. +Four now. +You want you wanted to discontinue? +Fifteen two fifteen four fifteen +Yeah here we go. +Come on then. +Fifteen two fifteen four and a pair of six. +Yeah. +Whoa! +What a +And got a ball down. +And that's a complete accident. +Come on then. +Fourteen +God that makes me look like a good player that, doesn't it? +. Shirl, any time you want me in the team. +That was a good shot though, wasn't it? +Well, I think I got +It's your first take. +Give you fifteen. +Oh I've bloody hell,. +If, if I was playing a game I would actually somebody else. +Ah! +. +Done it. +I was trying for that one. +Didn't that work out? +So I need to take six. +Oh I, I was trying to get it up there. +Oh it's my, is it your box? +Yeah. +Won't matter will it? +Not really. +You need fifteen. +Oh what do I do? +I don't know how it counts, that's four seven eight nine +Got to try holding as many as you can really. +I know but I don't know how many many is . +That's three. +You started it. +Yes. +Alright alright alright. +What's the chances of one of them coming up? +Well if it if it gives you the required amount or +I don't know how to work it out. +Look +Mm well that's a problem isn't it? +Keep them and one of them in case you get another three or a six. +oh oh oh oh oh +That's only four though innit you see? +No, yeah. +That's what I said, to do that and hope for a three or a six or another five or a king. +You want a six preferably or a king or five, yeah. +Two for jacks. +Oh . +It's your lead then. +Good shot. +Oh! +I'm +Six sixteen, twenty two. +Cor I'm not, I'm not gonna risk that. +Two twenty eight. +You know I haven't got it. +you got a dozen though. +Not enough though. +Not quite. +You've done it anyway. +Yeah +Fifteen two fifteen four fifteen six two three four six eight, two's ten. +Threepence after all that dear. +Three P. +That was quite a good game actually, in the end. +Three P +Didn't I have some bloody funny hands? +Yeah. +Awkward hands to work out. +Oh yeah I'd I'd agree with you. +Threepence then dear. +You owe me. +Threepence I owe you. +Threepence you owe me. +My box? +Yeah. +Yeah. +Cor, something's shaved that one over a little bit. +Mm +It's . +You wanna Put four ten. +That's a lovely table Alan. +Nineteen. +Jack nine. +Thirty, no? +Ooh! +That was good playing that was. +That was a good shot. +Oh I'm sorry you did didn't you? +Ever so close wasn't it? +Yeah it was a good shot. +You know +one . +Yeah. +Trying to yeah. +Oh well, what do you do when you're seven hundred behind? +two. +Twenty for two and the rest three. +table isn't it? +oh sorry I've got to get, move another way. +Fifteen two fifteen four fifteen six sixteen, eight two is ten? +Yeah yeah I'm trying out shots, that's all. +Ten. +Fifteen two fifteen four fifteen six fourteen. +Tut oh ah I can't win no matter what I do. +Well you're not . +All the balls are on the table actually. +Least I know what to put in the box. +Cos I worked out that was fifteen and there were a picture go . +Yeah. +I need ten. +Or a three or a six. +At least I'd erm four five, what two in one. +You know and that's +Yeah. +Yeah. +Any ten you wanted didn't you? +Yeah or a +I mean you got the ten you wanted. +But er +Or a six. +a six or so I knew what, that the nine was no good to me or the +Yeah, yeah. +s six. +Who put the fifty pence in there? +Who put the fifty pence in there? +Who asked me to? +Yeah you go and stand in a corner in a minute. +No I didn't. +Go to the headmaster. +Oh bloody hell. +Can't do that seeing it's your box. +Got to get in closer to that. +And I'm hoping as well. +It's anybody's game isn't it, really? +Yeah. +Anybody's game. +It's nice though what it's all about. +Try two. +In thirty. +Someone's gonna crack. +You don't get interest +Just th just the turn up I wanted,or a five. +Yeah I wasn't too bad. +eight. +Seven eight. +Oh you got one two three four five six seven eight nine ten, ten. +Nothing in the box. +Ten. +One for +Try whatever you like dear. +If you can see it, hit it. +Well I can't see it so I'm going round , I'm going round the back. +I'm in the lead. +Not by many but I'm in the lead. +I can see you're in the lead. +It's where you usually are dear. +That was a crafty move that. +Have the been in any more since erm Monday? +Yeah they came up +Oh so they're all Oh bloody hell. +They've fallen out haven't they? +Mm. +Can't do that See what happens if I give you them. +Like that . +You're alright you won't hit got your box so you're alright. +I would if I give you them. +How do you know I won't? +Cos I know cos of what I've put in +Oh I'll have to put you a pair in you two. +Probably eight probably. +Hope you put the right pair in . +Oh good. +I ain't got nothing so oh I didn't know what to put in. +Thirteen. +Twenty five. +Thirty yeah, couldn't get away from it. +Thirty. +Want four +No +That stirred it up a b oh. +Good shot! +I only want four. +Oh the last card. +Have you got four? +Sorry? +Didn't know what to give you. +I got to give you two eights. +Oh that's alright. +Yeah, you wouldn't let me box. +What are you putting, two sevens? +Fifteen two No . +Fifteen two fifteen four four's eight. +And a nine there. +If you put two eights in I did put another eight in, but that's six or eight. +Didn't know what to do. +Cos I'll have two +Well +for two eights or like that for four that way, so. +yeah, yeah. +That's all I had. +Yeah. +It's difficult. +It's your box Ann. +I thought you said he he lost by a hundred. +No, what did he lose by? +Er eight hundred and fifty. +He lost by? +I I played canny at the end rather than +by that many, surely? +Yeah he did. +You kept giving him a hundred. +By not hitting the ball. +That's where it all mounts up. +You know you keep giving, if you keep missing the ball. +Yeah, it does. +Yeah. +Good though. +Have you done? +Can I get up? +Yes, yeah. +Thanks very much. +want a game Bob? +What? +Do you want a go? +I can't afford another game of that. +He owes you a pint now doesn't he? +Is it coming out for you? +Four +Put your other one down. +Alright then, I will this time. +Twelve. +Ten. +Ooh. +Twenty five. +. One. +Ooh bloody hell. +What have you got, have you, have you got a hand? +I'd better get mine on quick fifteen two fifteen four six pairs eight. +Five six twelve eight. +How many have you got? +Bloody hell. +Fifteen two fifteen four two six eight fourteen. +Six in the box. +six in the box. +Now who's in the lead? +I knew what to do with that one you see? +Now who's in the lead? +I knew what to do with that one. +Specially when the five come up, I thought I'll put the blooming +Two tens. +Exactly, ten in there. +Now who's in the lead? +I could have had two thousand points ahead and John was on the skittle. +I like that . +Yeah, they did last night, it +Yeah. +Yeah. +They did that last night. +Yeah. +Couple of their best players as well. +playing that. +Yeah. +I like it when +It does tend to come twenty forty +Now then. +Your lead dear. +You're a gentleman. +Thankyou. +Eleven. +Fifteen +Well you have to keep your balls on the table. +Pardon? +Twenty five. +He he doesn't put his balls on the table. +Neither do you. +Six. +And it's his go first this time isn't it? +I tell you. +Well I dunno, doubt if I've got any even. +Oh. +Oh, does it make any difference, actually? +Er well +No it doesn't make any difference +Fifteen two fifteen four fifteen eight. +One two three four five six seven eight nine ten. +That's a big difference. +No. +Erm +It's just the way it's always been +I suppose people are are playing +I'll have a queen four, king ten and four in. +You know played aces and fours so two. +Two. +Oh I'll just sneak back one. +Sneak . +But it can work. +When when people table they keep on potting thirty thirty all the time +Oh sorry, you've got cue +I just took one over there. +Could be yours. +Do you want this one? +You can have it. +No sit there cos red to there, white to there. +Five times six +Now who's on where? +You started first so you're on a +Alan got off to a less than +Bad start. +auspicious start. +So Alan started first so he on top. +No erm I'm I'm on top. +I'm I'm on the bottom. +Well he gave you a hundred. +Yeah he's skilled. +Still wanna play one? +So you're on the bottom? +Yeah I'm on the bottom. +Yeah I've got four down. +he's started so he's on top. +Exactly. +There you are. +Yeah Yeah that's right. +Twenty for two. +I've got four so far Shirley. +I know what I'm doing. +Frankie goes to Hollywood. +. Twenty nine. +Don't upset the cos we'll be back at you could toss a coin in under there. +Thirty fifteen two, fifteen six is eight. +Fifteen two six. +Hello. +Hello +Alright Sid? +Alright Frank. +You're back in the lead dear. +You're favourite. +You're favourite to win this one. +Depends on what the cards do. +Frank? +Yeah, the number of your hands are the number of your hands to mine. +She's refereeing . +No erm because +Oh god. +that's four and I won't do anything +Alright you're cheating me. +No +Hello Sid. +Hallo chief. +Alright? +Teasing me. +No certainly bloody not. +I'm not that bloody good Alan . +Eleven. +I don't know how to play the game. +Oops. +Your lead. +that tap hasn't he? +That's Strongbow +Oh I'm +you silly boy. +Your lager's the other end. +You know what's +Where've you been? +I've I've been +Twenty two. +You know why? +Cos I was served a pint up last night in our social club. +And their pump's on that end. +Twenty six . +So I have to do this job everywhere I go +Bloody hell you've got about four fives . +No. +I've only got two of them. +You're alright though. +You till I've got one. +Don't make a mess. +I've got fifteen, yeah . +Fifteen two fifteen four four's eight. +Fifteen two fifteen four +Well, I could do with a good box and that might put me in with a chance. +Fifteen two fifteen four fifteen six. +Outside chance though. +Thirteen +Stop yakking and get on with it. +I suppose I've got to get the ice out as well have I? +Ah! +Ooh! +Two middles and a paper one here please. +No. +Oh no. +Now what do I do? +Oh no. +Oh god. +Oh. +That was absolutely lousy. +I couldn't understand why you didn't do that in the first place. +I'm sorry, it's taking me a long time cos I don't know what to do. +It's alright. +Take as long as you like. +Well. +Someone's gotta do something about that Brian,? +I think I've gotta do that. +That's probably +wrong but +Top one, top one, top one. +Oh! +It is. +King. +I've done the wrong one I think. +Twenty eight. +Oh no. +Twenty nine for one. +Eleven. +Four is all I have. +Fifteen two fifteen four, one two three four. +Well that's alright isn't it? +Fifteen two fifteen a dozen. +I know. +I pu I had five. +You've got a dozen in there as well. +You win. +But I had +Yeah but you've won! +but I had +Yeah. +What did you do wrong there? +and I had +What nine five? +No you didn't have nine five. +No I had three nine. +Twenty nine. +Three five sorry. +Three five. +I didn't know whether to put that out or er +No. +No no. +I done it right? +Perfect. +Absolutely perfect. +Thank god for that. +No you, it's your box. +I know it is. +Box away yes. +Not your box definitely eight three but three five on your own box, oh yeah. +Close you put the five in keep +What you've gotta keep your double run? +You're keeping a good, yeah you're keep you're keeping your double run that way as well but +Yeah +you're not scoring so many because you've got your fifteen at the end there. +But oh yeah, oh yeah. +Absolutely. +And I won. +Yeah you got a dozen in your box. +Wallop. +Straight in. +Bang bang, two hands, thank you ma'am. +Ha! +It's your box still. +Oh, how many's that? +Five six seven eight. +Erm +five. +can I just go to the +Yes I do, I do. +. +Teetering. +It's my box isn't it? +Yes. +You teetered. +Oh thanks Al. +Don't worry Bob. +Don't worry. +It's only a little bit of cigarette ash +Oh it's probably from me from me own cigarette. +Don't worry. +I'm sure I shall have worse than that before I'm done, a bit of fag ash in me drink. +Won't be the first time. +Won't be the first time Bob. +Oh, this is a real balls-up this one right. +So if that thing will shoot off and hit that yes I have. +Yes I know. +Ah! +Too hard. +Pretty good. +That was, that was almost +No I didn't. +. +Can't have any of these. +Ah, play it safe. +Oops. +Hasn't helped. +It's done nothing for the box. +Two will play one. +Sixteen. +Seventeen. +Erm twenty. +Go on! +Yes! +Twenty three. +Play for Alan. +Rubbish. +I know what I'm doing. +Now, where are we? +Fifteen two fifteen four fifteen six and six is a dozen. +Ha! +Fifteen two fifteen four and sixteen that's eight. +Ten in the box. +Two greens. +Level pegging now then. +That's no good on my box. +Level pegging. +That's no good on my box. +Yes it is. +It's quite handy for me. +Is that touching? +No it isn't. +Whose box? +My box. +Oh well. +Try those. +Not very good, but there you go. +So, eight. +No good to me. +Go on then. +Your go. +Fifteen two . +Twenty five no! +No?one. +One niner. +There's a hundred there, definitely. +Ten twenty nine. +I'll try my best. +A kiss on the left hand cheek of that red ball. +Six. +Eight. +One two three four five six seven eight nine. +And that wasn't a bad shot. +Fifteen six fifteen four four's eight. +Five six seven eight. +Not a lot in it. +Nothing . +Two four +Thanks Shirley. +Just that little bit harder and that would have gone in there. +No +How did you get that far ahead? +I've got nine you've got eight. +I pegged some. +Oh. +Gonna say, we were level. +Ha! +You pegged hell of a bloody lot then. +About ten? +Twelve? +No. +We were level pegging +Yeah. +I got nine, you got eight. +Yeah, I've taken about four or five. +But you're all them in front. +I'm only oh half a dozen in front. +Course I had the box, don't forget. +I only pegged four. +Or four more than you. +Oh go on. +Treat yourself. +Treat the box. +put the right ones in there darling, you've got a fortune. +If you put the right ones in there my love you've got a fortune. +Eight. +nothing in me hands so it don't make no three +Twenty eight two. +Oh. +Any good? +to do that. +Yeah. +Put the wrong one down. +Thirteen. +Twenty eight for one. +Nine . +One two three, four five six, seven eight. +Three. +Three. +Didn't put your tens in the box did you? +Oh, look at that. +Unlucky eh? +Mormon's orchard four, that's all you got out of that lot. +If you'd put one of them tens in with that turn up you gotta . +I put ace four in. +And I put ace two in. +And when that and when that four turned up I thought oh bloody hell. +If you put a ten in there you're well away. +Any ten you got half a doz. +Oh well, spoils a good hand but there you go. +Here we go. +Twelve. +Eight hundred and sixty now. +Oh dear. +Don't know if you put a five down there, I already had it. +Twenty seven. +Twenty eight, thirty. +Might as well turn for a dozen. +Bloody hell. +How do you keep getting them? +Only got two in the box though. +You always get a dozen or fourteen, sixteen +You do. +Oh we didn't do that. +We didn't do it. +No out the book. +out the book. +There weren't any, many of us so we didn't do it. +By the end, it was quite fun in the end weren't it? +Yeah. +Well we enjoyed what we did didn't we? +Yeah, it was really good fun. +There weren't, we did it singly and it made more people didn't it? +Yeah, yeah. +There was Tracey and John and Bob and +Sorry Alan. +Four. +Oh. +Fiddle-dee-dee, now what do I do? +Your box isn't it?seeing as it's your box. +Oh. +No help at all. +No. +Twenty five. +No. +No?waste paper . +All yours. +Four +Not a lot. +Not a lot. +What have you got? +Fifteen two fifteen four pay six. +tops. +You jammy bugger. +It's only six. +Yeah I know but I didn't think I treat I thought no I'll go safe put them far then you just happened to put two three in the of two king. +Yeah. +Nearly caught up again. +Not that far behind. +Far enough. +It's your box. +get very many this time. +no competition. +Mm that looks, sounds really nice. +Oh god I don't know. +Shirley's throwing the balls down the table at you. +Should keep that I think. +think. +Hi Neil. +Hi Shirl. +Alright? +Hallo Dave. +Hallo matey. +Alright? +Turn me one up my darling. +Ring the bell Neil. +. +I'll have half. +Your lead darling. +Fifteen for two. +Lager shandy. +Pint? +Yeah. +Mm! +for two. +Twenty nine for two. +Tut. +No. +No. +Nine. +What have you got? +Fifteen two fifteen four and six pair's eight. +Give too many secrets away Shirl. +Oh fair enough then. +Fifteen two fifteen four fifteen six two is eight . +Mm and I give you some in the box as well so you that's it, done. +No it's not many in here. +Twenty two twenty four twenty six. +Did they win Shirl? +Yeah, unfortunately. +Really what you want to do is make him hit the ball up. +Oh. +Treat the box? +Yeah go on, she's behind. +Treat the box. +Put the right ones in there my darling you've got a fortune. +Turn the top +I doubt if it's right. +Turn the top one over darling. +I'm sure it's wrong. +Three. +No I'm not doing it. +For fourteen. +Nineteen. +Four ten five. +Right, oh +Oh thankyou. +One two three, four five six, seven eight nine and six is fifteen. +Five +Fifteen. +. One two and three is five. +is five. +Six eight nine in the box. +One two three, four five six, seven eight nine. +Oh yeah. +Told you. +I told you didn't I? +I'm favourite to win though. +But Told you you put put ten, I put jack queen in s same suit and close and everything. +Had to for that. +Now what do I do? +Mm I suppose. +ooh it's nine. +Mm mm mm mm Never mind. +Up to you darling. +Nineteen. +Well ten. +Thirty for three. +I know you any others. +four. +What have you got to finish with? +Come on darling. +One two three, four five six, seven eight +I had another queen as well. +Sixteen. +Into the box. +Oh dear darling. +I've had it I know. +Street. +Oh dear. +You already won. +two fifteen twenty twenty five thirty thirty five. +And I owe you five so that's thirty pence you owe me now isn't it? +Yes dear. +Whose box? +It's one two three, my box. +Yeah, my box isn't it? +later I suppose. +Pass me a goody darling. +Pass me a goody. +That's not a goody, that's a baddy. +That's a goody. +No it's not, it's a baddy. +Your lead dear. +See one, play one. +Nineteen. +Twenty nine, no? +Seven. +Twenty four. +You jammy bugger. +Fifteen two fifteen four fifteen six twenty eight two is ten, six is sixteen and one for his knob, is seventeen. +Think I played right that time. +I think you did. +Two. +Can't remember what I put in the box, another picture I think. +Yeah but what else with it though? +Or did I put a picture or ten? +I dunno. +No you put four two in. +Four two. +Four, I mean eight four. +Eight four, yeah. +And I put a pair of twos in so you didn't very much. +I got two. +I scored five in that . +And you scored all that lot. +It's your box now. +You're gonna get that thirty pence back plus interest this time aren't you? +I doubt it. +You'll catch up. +No I won't. +If, if we were once round then I'd say yes but not +Mhm. +Oh you can't have any of these. +I don't want you to have any of these, so +Oh I've got to take a chance on it. +No. +Turn up. +Turn up, please. +Seven +Teen. +Twenty seven. +. Seventeen. +Twenty seven. +Oh six. +Two +Six. +Two four six. +That's the other blooming one. +Mind you that isn't too bad is it? +Oh bloody hell one two three four five six seven eight. +Five six seven eight. +I'm getting slaughtered Shirley, this time. +Are you? +Absolutely completely and utterly slaughtered. +Bob did yesterday. +Bob did yesterday. +She said, yeah. +Yeah. +I'm thirty pence up, but this game I'm getting absolutely trounced. +I won him about I don't know it was three or four games . +Couldn't go wrong! +to get back. +A oner. +Did you enjoy your little self? +Erm +makes a change to have a game rather than erm +Yeah +Thirteen +something with an edge to it, you know. +Yeah, that's right. +Yeah. +Twenty, twenty five. +Thirty? +No. +Just takes your mind off your troubles for five minutes doesn't it? +Queen. +No, no I like the game but then I I like to play +the game . +Mm. +That's right. +That's what it should be. +Well, look at this lot. +Fifteen two fifteen four fifteen six two is eight one for his knob is nine. +Nine. +Fifteen two fifteen four twenty six and three is nine. +Keeps her distance . +Pop a pair of sixes in don't put, what's on top? +Ace . +Oh yeah one. +Fifteen two fifteen four and a pair is six. +Bubye. +See you Grace, see you Al. +See you again. +Teach how to play that game will you? +Okay then. +Oh dear, well it's all good fun,. +Ah. +It certainly is. +It's all good fun. +Hello Harold. +Maybe it's getting a bit chilly out there with that door open. +There's talk of is it my box? +Yes, unfortunately. +I haven't heard the weather. +And I don't know what er +Oh I've got sweet +Well we're gonna get a lot of it. +Are we? +Oh. +Okay. +No, I can't nothing I can do here. +All day. +All day? +Lot of what? +Weather. +Oh well, yeah, yes. +Seven eight. +But what type of weather? +I might have known the come on, put the third one down. +Ooh sixteen. +Twenty five. +Oh. +They're dim. +twenty five. +Twenty seven, twenty nine for two. +Mm. +my other husband. +Twenty fifteen two +Nothing. +Fifteen two fifteen four for seven. +Two for ? +Yes. +Oh dear . +Two for fours. +Ooh. +Caught up now. +No. +Haven't caught up. +I'm still behind. +Well hallo! +Hello. +How the devil are you? +Alright thanks. +How are you? +Alright Johnny? +Alright? +come to see you. +I should damn well think so too. +Are you delivering? +I don't know you Doug, no. +Hello Doug. +Oh god. +Tut. +Can't do that can I? +That'll give me four. +Gives me four. +Oh I'll do it that way and take a chance. +I don't know whether I'm doing right or wrong. +Oh god I've give you a bloody handful now so that was stupid. +let me have a look. +Oh I only need ten, well it depends on what you've put in. +I give you two. +Your lead now. +Eight. +Eighteen seventeen. +Twenty two, twenty nine. +Mm . +Ann's take, fifteen two fifteen four two six six. +I've got two. +Have you? +No king, ten I've got two queens on I've got to get king jack +No put king king ten's fairly safe jack queen is. +It's your +Yeah but I'm going to keep the two pictures and a five and then you had to put two twos in or two and a six or +Yeah, yeah. +I don't blooming know and I thought if a seven comes up and I've got five and six and +Yeah. +Oh yeah. +Yeah. +I thought oh I try to work it out. +I can't always. +Mm. +Whoops, I give you +Still well in the lead my love. +Oh now again, what do I do? +I think I'm supposed to keep that. +Top, top. +I don't know but I think I'm supposed to, yeah that'll do. +King of spuds. +Five, four. +God. +Oh well I've put it down now. +Fifteen for two. +Seventeen. +Twenty for two. +Twenty two, twenty three for three. +four for two and a go is three. +ended up right. +Fifteen two fifteen four and five is nine. +Five six seven eight nine. +Fifteen two fifteen four two a dozen. +Six in the box. +king in the box. +Bloody hell. +Six for kings in the box. +You did well out of that didn't you? +Mm. +Stormed back into the a very very handy little lead. +Very handy little lead. +Is he beating you again? +Erm he's beating me two one and then, but I'm winning in this one. +Ooh crikey. +You've been taking lessons. +Thirty pence up I am though. +Oh. +But she's gonna get some of it back this time. +Aren't you dear? +No. +Mm could go the other way I suppose. +Yeah, put that on. +Try that one. +Give them a, take a chance. +Depends what you put in the box. +I only +Depends what turns up. +Mm. +Maybe another +Four. +Oh I've changed my mind. +Oh I don't know though. +Oh bloody hell, I give you I might as well not be playing now cos I've I've got nothing in me hand. +No. +Nothing. +Your lead. +Your lead. +Nothing. +Nineteen. +Only nine, oh got nine in the box as well eh. +Twenty nine, thirty. +Ah two four one that would have been. +Three gets four. +Oh well . +And nothing. +What do you mean, nothing? +I haven't got anything. +Yes you have. +You got one for his knob. +One. +One for his knob. +I only got fifteen two and two is four. +put a nine up for that +I didn't know what to do. +I know. +I only got fifteen. +Just a minute, just a minute! +Fifteen two two is four, give us chance to count them up. +You've already got them counted up . +What did you have? +The nine jack two ace +Yeah. +Two nines. +Why didn't you keep your nine, two nines your jack and put your king ace in the box? +Or your king two in the box? +I don't know. +Cos jacks are not +Didn't know what to do with it. +It was all +Hallo Ray. +None of it made sense. +Jack two nines and the ten turns up. +There was just nothing apart from the two nines was any +Oh no. +then what do you do? +Oh go on, bugger it. +Take a chance on it. +Turn it up darling. +Oh one go one box. +Try a jack. +Sixteen for two. +Twenty six, twenty nine two's in time. +look at that. +Try a jack. +One to one. +Fifteen two fifteen four two six two's eight one for his knob is nine. +Five six seven eight nine, fifteen for two fifteen four +Oh wow! +Everything alright mate? +I dunno but I got a wonderful hand look wha I'll just show you for a start, cos I'm putting that in the box. +Cos it doesn't matter +And you know me I wouldn't put that in the box unless What are these? +Yeah +Quarter to six. +Right. +Well please yourself, how long it takes you to do it. +fifteen, yeah I put them on get a drink On are they +Who have you bought then? +Oh, five, ten, fifteen, seventeen off thirty. +Thirteen pence darling you owe me still. +There's a big up there. +Please +There you are dear. +Thank you +Now so that's two each, you owe me thirteen pence yes?and it's your box +This wonderful person here darling +It wasn't. +I thought you told me earlier on I was wonderful. +You are my love absolutely +wonderful don't like those, don't really wanna give you those there are right have I got it on bloody hell mum! +Turn it round for you try a niner twenty sixes alright seven put five on there four on this my turn fifteen two, fifteen four fifteen two, fifteen four fifteen two, fifteen four, fifteen six three's nine, that's it,seven, eight, nine fourteen four in the box nineteen, that goes up to fifteen fifteen two, fifteen four, fifteen six good job I'm honest innit? +Oh ah. +You said four, six +Where's six? +Eight seven, ten five, seven three five +Then take out all of +Good job I'm honest isn't it? +Cos in a match if that was in a match cos you'd have said you'd have said, fifteen two, fifteen four I wouldn't have said nothing take four, I would have kept quiet but you don't do you? +Play in pairs, it's different but when you're just playing singles, you can say or maybe you could sort of friends that go, you'd probably say something like, are you sure? +Say, yeah fifty four, right, fair enough +You had a choice of an eight or a three I had two jacks and a king you chose the three, the two turned up that would've given you eight and a but you picked the three so that'll give you more in the box as well an three hit your three hit your hand as well so +The only reason I've beaten you this time is look at that sixteen Don't even know four one for are you? +Got a got a pair of twos there ee by heck!for four and a pair is six well I think I'll have I'm afraid two eights, two o , two eights, two tens and then nine didn't ask for that but I had to throw a pair of twos away for that and go in there you go. +I lost the last one and I gave my winnings ha ha. +Thank you very much twenty four pee and +Last one, ha ha ha. +Can't you hear me saying to that They all go in a tin up there John. +Oh right. +We put them in or in the holiday tin with all the change. +so don't make a lot of difference does it? +It all goes the same way whe when we went on holiday in O end of Octob end of October it goes +Didn't cost us anything. +Saving bits and pieces. +Oh did you? +We paid for the holiday with just with change out of our pocket +Cos I went in +and purse +I empty into my pocket at night +Yeah +That's what we do +you know I'll settle up +Yeah +you know I don't really want +But we erm +we we saved two hundred pound and and had a week away +About three or four days +Well four +Four four days +four days in the Autumn for that +Yeah +for just out your change not missed it. +What +Accommodation, meals and petrol +Accommodation,and the petrol all we had to find was +Just spending money and he wo had that anyway +just what you spent it on as if you were at home. +You don't miss it do you, not just putting it in a tin like that. +So your prediction did not come true. +No it didn't, did it +So now what're we playing? +Shall I tell them all what I'm doing? +No no. +No? +Oh alright. +Won't be bothered so +Nobody's even nobody's take any notice. +So what're we playing for now? +Are we still playing are we? +We're playing brag but I ain't got not change. +Oh you give it all to me have you? +Yeah +Only now I've got a five p now. +Is that all? +Yep. +Well play for five. +Not playing for tenners, I can't afford that. +Well play for penny then. +Give me your five p and I'll use five of these and we'll play for penny a time probably win it! +I might have sixpence actually but +Oh money's +Oh I got more than that actually I got about ten p. +Ooh dear! +Got two fives and tuppence. +Oh two fives and tuppence well we'll play for tuppence then. +Oh wait a minute. +Ooh, wait a minute. +Oh! +Oh I'm rich. +Ooh! +And another one. +Twenty twenty four pence there. +Twenty four but I've paid him he's had his other twenty odd p so ha ha he's had that he's reckons it was ten twenty odd p plus some change we had. +Right I've twenty three worth Bob and I got a bit of loose change as well. +So you ain't getting no more! +That's his lot ! +Mhm. +That's another one I've got to +No she told us, we did ask her. +You haven't been paid yet. +paid you. +Never mind Bob never mind So what are you playing for Ann dear? +It's coming off here Keep moving it . +What're you playing for then ? +Do you want a or what? +Oh look at that! +Doesn't matter Here are Bob, pound of change please there you go. +How are you, alright now? +Yeah not too bad now, though. +Isn't that +Hi Shirley. +How are you? +Alright mate. +is it? +Yeah I know. +I bought four sets and I'll leave them for you +Bob! +all these ladies, they're all round him like +Blooming heck!look at this lot. +Well that's right well that's it. +Like me you said. +I wish I was twenty years younger. +Shirley? +John? +You've got two, now. +I know. +How many more do you want. +George was in Wednesday night, him and his granddad, +By the way you'll be getting stool first things first. +Well no spoilt for choice ace, king, queen my full flush +He said he might not, you change your will in my favour John +Change your what? +Will. +Won straight away. +Nothing funny. +It's the way she said it Especially the smile like that. +Oh bloody hell! +I won the first game makes a change dunnit? +Yes dear. +It's you that normally wins the first hand and me for the rest. +We want some change but it doesn't sound too good. +It doesn't does it ! +Only five +You know those erm chicken breasts +Oh very nice. +Oh they're very nice, I just had them +Can you put them in a roll? +Yeah, I could do it, +it's not a sandwich. +No a burger bun. +That's gotta be you as well! +Well I don't. +There's several being done. +Oh yeah, alright I don't want yours In amongst your there's no rush for me +Anyone like +I'll have the fresh ones +Anyone like mayonnaise? +Oh thank you very much +Can't +Mm? +Haven't got any plugs I'm afraid. +Well I'm sorry I can't erm +Sold out, John. +feed the girls, start on your own. +Old screwdriver now. +It's a job for you. +Yeah I know. +Erm +What night shall I come back? +Oh sweet sod all! +Oh well it's yours. +squash +Do the +pair of pliers +take a break in a minute, okay? +Mine again. +I'm not playing with you tonight, that's it. +Oh you're not playing with me now! +Played with me this afternoon +Don't be stupid Stuart! +Stuart! +Ha! +Going to be rich. +One, two, three oh it's alright +What's the matter? +I asked wrong ah +Not a game +Aye? +I've gotta put another five pounds, you could go on all night then, couldn't it? +I ain't got no five Ps to put in. +You put those, you ain't got oh no, fair enough just play for the one five P then. +I would do if I had any change, you could go and +Yeah but only the +get me some change if you want. +No, too tiring. +Oh! +Oh this isn't fair! +No, I want a three I do I want a three then it'll be mine +I ain't got what +Ain't on ten ten's got it. +Place +Nearly was yours nearly was nearly got it I'm supposed to remember when I put these tapes on, half past seven till quarter past eight twenty past eight to when God this is gonna be awful, I shall never start, no leave that. +Oh that's a disappointment. +Oh heck, heck, heck and double heck! +I give up I do. +Nothing else I can do Nasty, nasty +See you Tom. +Keep well. +Yes cheers. +He's got +See you Sunday I expect. +Right you are then, Davey Dave +Yeah I will, bye. +, see you Terry. +Yeah bye. +Bye. +Yes. +Bet you don't get a lot of that. +Yes. +Lucky I had the pair of jacks and gone back to +Oy! +Four, five, six, seven, eight, nine +This is daft playing for five P ha ha. +Well we can make it more if you like. +Innit though? +It all goes the same way doesn't it? +Not a this is yours three I've got three pairs, oh and I shouldn't tell you anyway cos you'll bloody beat me anyway, so +No I won't beat you. +Pair of kings no I've got it wrong. +Sorry Pair of +eights. +How big was your last pair got a pair of fives mine again. +Don't take that. +Ooh you're getting down to your last tuppence. +Then I'm not playing then. +Oh I'll play for your last tuppence can't you? +Yes dear. +Right, one in there, one in there and one in there no no no Oh dear this has gotta be good. +I think I won't beat you, look at that one forty two three jacks queen +Yahoo! +Good job I had a four card had nothing else +you know the last three runs +Yeah yeah. +I had nine, ten, jack, queen, king and a two. +Yes. +Mhm. +Here I goes oh right, one in there oh, one in there, one in there, one in there and one in there yes yeah no no, no. +What's it like in the ? +Filthy. +It still is now. +It's absolutely filthy. +But I as I say I go in there +If you go in the loo there's well for months or during the summer hours counting how many moths was on the window sill and flies, you know, they sort of got more each week when you went and the cobwebs it's wonderful! +And Stuart sat down in, because they got these wooden old chairs, haven't they with arms on them and he he sat there like this with his arm and went, I said Stuart whatever's that on your arm? +He said, come off the chair and all the along the bottoms of the tables and you can write your name in the dust ! +I've got a funny feeling I'm not inviting you round to my house ! +No but I mean it is. +No really no I as I say I we when I came down here +Cos I said to Bob, are they managers or what, cos if they're managers surely +Yeah +they they get an allowance for somebody to clean and if they've got a cleaner, I mean, they should have sacked them a long while ago ! +Oh yeah they have glasses, they stink don't they? +It is it's dirty, there's no other word for it. +Eight, nine, ten, eleven one, two, three, four jack was good. +It is it's disgusting, I mean it could be a nice pub that really the gardens are about this high in weeds. +Yeah +It isn't now how long's he been +Used +there? +used to be. +Well he er +Quite a while now really, hasn't he? +Yeah +We wouldn't go in at a , I wouldn't go in at all, but Stuart's mum used to live right opposite and she likes to go in occasionally cos she sees all her old friends, she don't see them very often so she likes to go in and see all her old friends, otherwise I don't +ideally, for me, cos I could +Yeah. +Half the time that's er, if it's still as bad as it was +You ought to go in the Loco. +Well that's what he's saying but frankly +That's nice in the Loco. +frankly, frankly +That's where we played last night. +Yeah and I said I wished I'd cos of had to come in and +Yeah. +I think, oh a bit far. +Yeah. +Okay. +It's nice in there +Yeah. +It's a nice little pub and it's all, it's busy as well and +Yeah. +It is busy innit? +But it's s but it's nice isn't it? +Nice atmosphere in there. +well last year we went out last New Year,times. +Yeah. +Best rave we've had +Yeah I don't mind the Loco Oh bloody hell! +I've got troubles now deep, deep troubles I might as well go in that way round . +I haven't got nothing so +Neither have I. +Don't worry about it. +Neither have I. +Six, seven, eight. +Queen flush. +Queen flush. +Pair of sixes. +Ace, +Pair of fours Go onto the . +Where abouts do you live then? +Oh are they? +Well no not that it's the same ! +No I didn't know the area when I moved here erm my wife was so it was so er I'm afraid , it's not bad but move closer, just a bit closer. +Mm I used to live which is +Oh yeah , which part is that? +erm not far away +Which part is that? +Oh yes, I do +I know the +I know all the roads, I pedal all round that way. +Well down the bottom end I live not where the flats and the houses end, that end. +No, the other end,yep I got the same chimney as you +Wouldn't think so. +I do I know so Just from yours. +You'll have that and nothing or that and nothing. +Oh well ha ha. +Which is the highest, ask yourself, that must be three fours. +Ha! +Two three fours to pair of sixes. +Er king king, jack and nothing to go with it. +King, queen ten ooh ooh, my king I just beat your king I'm sorry dear sorry dear, quid play this hand and then I'll get you another drink mother would you like another drink? +There he goes again. +Ooh! +Can't sort +D'you wanna drink? +them out any better four sixes erm and a +Ha ten, jack, queen. +King flush. +Queen flush. +Nothing +No. +Shoo hello dear. +Hello Baby. +Get you another drink? +Would you like another, same again? +Yeah. +Or do you want something else this time? +No. +Sure? +I'm positive thank you. +Certain? +I am certain, I may have one before I go over, be real naughty. +Twist your arm. +I'm dieting before Christmas you see and er +Oh God no! +Well then a then I ca +Don't need it does she? +No does she hell as like! +Oh you're on holiday for a couple of days, I mean you'd have thought you know, since you're on holiday just have a little drinky or two but no can't persuade her, can't you tell me why you just come out of a Yorkshire pub. +Oh if I was up in Yorkshire I would. +It's different. +It's a pint where we were we were on holiday +Ninety nine P a pint it was +er er er doub +No. +No, Yorkshire +Tetleys +er Tetleys +they don't do that. +all of them thi Theakstons they were all and double, pound for double spirits they were by the pub what we stayed in stayed at the Black Bull at +Boroughbridge. +It's a twelfth century haunted inn, it was wonderful, the food +What was it called? +The Black Bull, Boroughbridge it was wonderful really was and they treat us really, and I mean it wasn't expensive and I had sa fresh salmon and duckling and oh then I +And now you're moaning about the diet! +came back and put half a stone on, right, diet! +Stood on the scales and screamed! +It was wonderful, it really was then we went into Yor me he took me to Betty's and York for +any more well I got told there's one. +Th th there's a place a coffee, tea room place called Betty's in York, there where took me in where you have the head waiter take you to your table, for coffee, you know wonderful! +They treat you right up there. +Yeah, it's absolutely wonderful, it really is I mean then, so I had to cakes and so on there and +never, never stopped eating eating and drinking . +I notice your +Sausage rolls or something Yes that's er had a for that we cou we stopped there at I've never been up that wa that way at that's about the farthest north I've been one of these coaches erm two, two, two or three times and er and er I'd seen that Betty's on er on television before. +It's wonderful. +The cakes, the different the dish of cakes! +I know. +And a tiddly, little just a little plate, you know. +Yeah. +And a dirty great +But when yo when you walk in the door, I mean, first Stuart knew so he that's why he took me in, and we walk in and there's a head waiter would you like a table for two sir would you like a non smoking or a smo and then he showed you to your table and pulled your chair, you know, I mean tha not what you expect in a tea shop or coffee place you know i ha ha and they have proper waitresses with the little hat on, you know she'll get about four tables so they're looking after you and even on your saucer where you had your I mean yo your teapot and everything on the saucer's a little mat so that you don't drip, if it drips +That's right. +it doesn't go on your clothes, you know the whole works it's absolutely wonderful! +You can't fault it, can you? +No, and there was +Do you know what I mean +and the whole place, you know the ladies loos were like er as even a five star hotels, you know ha, wonderful it was, I couldn't believe it! +takes longer to get in there +Oh yeah there was lots of foreigners, Americans and foreign people there all with maps out on the tables, trying to find their way round York, which I knew that Stuart knew so it wasn't too bad for us, but there's loads of people, you know thought how do we get to this from here and well it's certainly a a an experience. +It was er Drunken here. +Is there no more bitter lemon? +Oh yeah, they're scurrying the cellar for some We've found two more for you. +Thank you. +Enough to keep you going all night. +It's innit? +Mhm. +And it doesn't say it has to be other people here probably not, every bit of it +Mm. +but +Some of it. +Mm. +Mm. +I can't do much about that, I mean you can't go sticking in other people's noses. +No that's true. +Oh wrong way round two kings, two eights. +Two tens. +That's it that's all you got. +If I take penny there then, that will all make forty pence, okay? +You're not taking all that money are you? +You'll start getting back now, now you're back to your last four pence when it comes down you start getting back don't you? +Oh, what do I want here? +Oh I don't know whether I wanted that Bloody hell! +One, two, three on the bounce three, six, eight, jack what's that supposed to be? +And a pair of tens jack, queen, king Feel alright? +Bloody man, I don't want to see that it's got three on it. +Oh boys on it. +Well here are, one, two, three on the bounce and I thought well you know that's a fairly good start, jack, queen, king king high was a bit dodgy you never know do you? +Oh I've got a handful of bloody pairs here, wait a minute got fo I've only got three feels like a bloody handful of them! +Can't do nothing here Ain't got nothing there. +Is that what you're playing? +Well I have to, I ain't got nothing else. +Three fours eight, nine, ten queen high the pairs stuck at the end though dear. +Oh not one flush. +Must of been +Yeah but then it split the bloody pairs all in bits. +Yeah, I know, I know yes. +Couldn't make a lot with that , could I really? +Not really no. +there for three pairs which was just as well I stopped you on the last one. +Ooh! +Ooh! +You bugger! +Oh I want card for run and I bet I can't bloody do owt with this lot. +No neither can I. +Can't even bloody hell! +Ain't got eight ha ha. +Nope No how's it going? +I don't bloody know how to play ! +Wanna play one, two, three, four, five, six and haven't you? +Yes. +Or five six seven and that's what you wanna do innit? +Oh yeah. +No no I wouldn't do that I always do it like this if I was playing that hand three flu well you could go well you got a choice you can go take a chance on your last hand, not getting through or you can go two, three, five, six, seven two three four, ace finish them which is what I'd probably do. +Oh I didn't see that, oh +One more try +I didn't see that love +three queens jack flush ace high, so I mean you wouldn't get any it anyway. +I didn't see that last flush, I couldn't ba , I couldn't sort them out. +Yeah but I mean it's it makes you one, two, three, you wouldn't of had a one two three to start with +I know that +but you had a eight to finish with which is finishing and a one, two, three might not be and a better run so I think I would have been tempted to finish with the ace flush there try and stop me rather than trying to win it cos you had nothing else did you? +No you didn't have you didn't have a finishing hand, you didn't really have a brilliant first two hands and then the pick of the one, two, three bouncer I might I might have been persuaded to play the one, two, three bouncer and hope that that got through but to finish with an ace flush but good. +Oh I don't know I ain't got nothing. +Neither have I. +Oh I'm not playing this, bugger it! +You chose, I can't sort it out I ain't playing no more, it's damn boring! +There a nice pair of fours ace high there er seven, pair of nines, ace high about all you got really that's all of it whatever you got . +Load of rubbish innit? +Eight, ten, pairs +Nines and a pair of fours +pair of nines , pair of fours ace +That's it. +high I'm only coming out with a ten flush, pair of aces, and a pair of eights would have been mine whichever way you played it. +That's it. +about or either of them want all your pennies my dear. +Wasn't that a damn boring game! +However or is that a damn crying shame however or is that a damn crying shame terrible you know what you need to do for now then, now I've won all +Cry. +Now I've won all your pennies off you +Cry. +You're not are you? +Really? +Yeah. +Cry, cry You need a cigarette now do you? +Pardon? +No not with all these people here no getting me wrong, I'm not +Ronny's not gonna go anyway nattering to his mates I've gotta get a I've gotta go and get a to go with it two and ten eights fours in that seven, four seven and four seven, four, six six, five, ten, ace jack queen, king, how about that? +Can't lose tonight can they? +How about that? +I think I'll leave the rest of that tonight. +Sorry? +I'll leave this for tonight now. +More stomach pains says where's the tablets so it's alright I can give it away can I? +It is yeah. +Pete wanna come here? +No it's alright. +So so when he'd done it he said well two hundred and fifty quid I heard him and he said but I suppose you know the of it oh I don't know and he said why didn't you do it? +I said well I , he said still thought you were gonna do the bar with wood but since you put it like this if you had a te a tin of beans, would you know which one made you fart! +Oh did you like dear, it's good that +Yeah yo +e e e he told me you were playing ladies, I said oh I bet you enjoyed them all, bet you go over that bloody table! +That's what I told them. +Yeah, that's what I said to him, I bet you had good fun. +No now no in front of the girls you know, he poured +Yeah he said you were +all over the bar for you start playing now they'll +Said I bet you quite enjoyed yourselves you lot. +Ron's eyes were popping out weren't they Ron? +got the tightest ones on ain't she? +No they're to buy two sizes too small, that's why it don't look right. +They played well though, didn't they Ron? +Mo most of them played they played well +Actually they do don't play as well as they used to. +That's the car come and have a sit for five minutes. +You tired? +Yeah legs ache. +Legs ache? +Did they get it in? +Yeah. +Did? +Oh no! +I'll go down +Here Bob Bob finish it there in five minutes. +He wanted me have a go, but I'm not no I I'll have a go another time when it's quiet, not when there's be been showing me. +Let's go +You can go. +You and Stuart will have to our hair slides. +If you think he's joking. +I feel like I've only played +Yes. +once and he was showing me how to do it, I could he hardly hit the +That's alright. +ball! +Well Shirl had never played till she started Stuart can't play +I've had one I've had a go. +Well that's it. +Best time to play is when +No +there's a lot in. +No, I mean +You just +No it's when it's quiet +When it's when it's quiet +When we there's only you and Shirley here I'll have another go cos you won't laugh ! +Well you might but it +No +won't matter. +alright, do it when I'm here, I'll coach you. +Yeah I bet you would! +I would +He would +I would, I +see you wrong +I wo oh, I mean I with Chris if I tell her where to go I mean +Think she need to hit the bloody ball at first! +She said I'll go one then and she will go and er give us a shout, because +Could I? +Gotta a hit the ball! +I'll just get a few +I was +Oh yeah. +er +Yeah. +you know It was quite good fun really, I enjoyed it. +I think I'll come and sit down there ou out the way you're alright, I'm alright on this corner. +Erm +Aah! +Bugger me! +I'll have to pa I'll have to pack this running up and down like this. +What are you doing at the moment? +So I've done it now, I was doing a load of painting. +But er i outside with the Cuprinol. +isn't it? +Oh yeah that one, that's not so bad, it's the other stuff this er was is it,Saladene that that's a wo a wood preservative it's a got a s stainer now that's not very strong I can still smell it now you know. +Yeah. +And er but it was only about half past five I didn't I never stopped till the I just kept going now tha well about half past four, I started to pack up and I realized my sandwiches were still in my snack box so I I'd I'd had one one earlier on whilst I was still working but yes the lady there she made us a couple of cups in the morning, er cu cup of coffee, I think about what yeah about half ten time but the time I painted a little bit and I thought oh I'll stop and have a fag, with my coffee and I had a cup of tea later on in the afternoon but er I didn't stop, I kept going, you know and then course by time I got to my drink, it was cold it was cool, so you drink it straight down +Drink it straight down. +and then we carried straight on again but I wanted to get it done today, I didn't want to go back again weekend they want to get the carpets down inside and they've got all the carpets there in the house, I mean it's twenty eight foot long, twelve foot wide so erm we got the carpets in down and we've got it in the house and it's too big +Yeah. +so obviously they wanna get it down this weekend and get it out the way cos they've got some family coming for the day on Sunday so they want to get it down tomorrow. +Yeah but it's all done +Oh. +now, it was just the windows wanted finishing off properly and I did that and all the the catches and fur furniture back on it again. +Yeah. +Cos I always take that off because it's all brass the er +I know. +you get a bit of paint on it I'd have a job to get it off so I take them off, then put them on just as it's going off, you know, so you gotta +Yeah. +Up market but erm yes even though I say it myself, it looks very very nice, and the door erm I did the the outside with the Cuprinol erm one of these hard wood doors with windows in it do you know it's bloody smashing! +The door really does set it off, it looks +Oh. +yeah it looks a real treat it does and it's just taken that Cuprinol nicely but mind you I didn't put it up too thick I well it's had two coats so it does, it looks a treat so er I'm a I'm very pleased with it anyway and er the woman there, Rita +Oh just as long as they're +she says, ooh yes aye this is fantastic! +She said after Christmas in the New Year I'm gonna have a house warming she says, and we'll let you know. +oh that's nice +You know +then. +they're they're going have extension built I mean I they're gonna use it at Christmas family coming over and they're gonna have their Christmas dinner out there. +I see. +Still well I mean I know the majority of it's wood and there's three large windows in it, and a door and erm the roof is this erm stuff it's just like er plastic moulding but it's double glazed bloody oven in there! +Oy oy oy oy! +Forty. +. +What one? +What do you want? +I'll have a Bacardi now please, one before I go home. +the diet. +Yes please. +I'm trying to be very good but er I can only so much of that ! +You don't oh you you don't like orange cos that makes you +I'm allergic to it. +allergic to it. +You alright mate. +I heard +Oh eh it comes across my shoulders. +Oh I get it all over, terrible. +No it comes across my it don't come out on my arms or anything, it comes, it comes on my body if I have an orange +Mm. +er a proper orange +I can't touch orange. +Mm. +Make one, rib four. +I know. +Ah! +That's make one innit? +Yeah. +Mm. +Make one. +Mm. +Is that a four or a five? +Erm, a four. +Five then. +Mm. +Make one? +Make one. +Mm. +Rib four. +Mm. +Make one, rib four. +Mm. +Make one, rib five. +How many you got left? +You gone wrong! +Mm. +How many you got there? +Well if I make one I got four. +How many do you need? +Eighty six. +But I would of worked out to I had four left, I had to increase in one which would have left . +Yeah, and then you had three and then you made one and to there, and that would have been right. +Wait a minute. +Er right, so what's going up here? +One, two, three, four so that's makes eighty five. +No, it's not! +One, two, three +Oh well ! +Nine o'clock. +What was on telly, something I wanted. +That's it. +Eighty. +Well that's eighty three now cos I'm . +So I've, I've gotta back to six haven't I? +Gotta make eighty six ain't I? +Ooh! +I got eighty six but don't ask me how because I just don't know! +But I know that I'm clever and I know that have it! +But I how I got there is a mystery! +Well you only gotta do it once more so +Mm. +. +Are they really? +Honestly and truly? +Yeah! +Well truly that's +I gotta do that back ain't I? +What a ! +Alright, cup of tea? +Please! +Oh dear ! +Oh bloody hell! +That's all that bloody walking! +I mean, people keep telling you you've gotta lose some weight, they don't tell me! +What did Anne say about you? +Look at her! +Look at +Oh +her! +Yeah, but come on there should be a bloody difference between me and her! +She meant how slim you were. +Exactly! +Well! +Not in relation to her she's . +She was just saying look at her! +Look at her! +I know. +Alright, what clothes you got? +A little podge +She's only a little woman! +It's all relative. +Not that sort of thing. +Tall woman. +Well, oh my God! +Tall woman though isn't she? +Mm? +Lesley ain't tall is she? +Ha! +Don't want to improve ! +Remind me not to go. +No. +. +Na nee nee . +Okay then. +I haven't got holes have I? +No! +You have you? +No. +That's alright. +Pardon? +Yeah! +Yeah ! +Oh I dunno! +This is good . +Eh? +Do you need this? +Erm no. +What's this a recall of last week? +Yeah. +Mm, bit of trouble there! +Mm! +Yeah, there was really. +Oh Walt's gone ain't he? +Been there a while isn't he? +Mm. +Putting his arm round the Queen! +Yeah! +We've just redecorated the hall and I +Could I? +I it needs a blimey! +Oh it's here! +And there's two up isn't there? +What shall I wear tomorrow then? +Well, I reckon your black skirt that's nice +Yeah. +and er some sort of top. +And my new coat? +The one he bought. +Yeah. +Or ? +I like the hem on that black skirt it's look today. +What, the little one? +No! +The long one. +I like that very much! +It'll look good with that coat. +What coat? +The black one! +I got two black ones! +Oh! +Sorry! +My long one? +Yeah! +Like that? +Looks lovely ! +It looks lovely! +Well it's today's sort of thing innit? +I want to wear my short black one! +You can't! +Be comfortable. +I wouldn't! +That other one looks so modern. +The long, looks so nice on you! +Oh yeah, but +well I mean you don't wanna go dressed, too dressed. +Don't I? +Well I don't think so, do you? +I mean, this is the temp job innit? +It's up you! +You wear what you like! +But I think you wanna be comfy don't you? +You know, really comfy Up to you, entirely!! +See in the morning when you get dressed what you think. +Do you want alarm put on? +No. +You sure? +You better do. +Ay? +You better do. +Well, you know quite seriously. +Er +It's probably the night you bloody wo , the day you over sleep innit! +Well I did one morning. +One night . +I mean, I know it's late, it's twenty past eleven but +Yeah I don't well, be rushing around. +No, course you don't! +Well I'll erm +I wanna wake up. +what time shall I er get him to do it for? +What would you prefer? +Erm +Ay? +Nine-ish would +Nine. +do. +Nine would do, wouldn't it, nicely? +I would think so. +I mean you don't wanna be push, push I mean but at the same time you don't wanna be you don't definitely wanna be running around like a cuckoo head do you? +No. +There's nothing worse! +You want a cup and tea and you name it. +No, nine o'clock should be perfect I would think. +Bloody dogs barking! +I know! +Howling! +No it ain't it's a kid! +No, I think that's a dog. +It's a dog! +It's both! +Oh! +He's shouting mummy Oh that's brilliant isn't it? +No bloody sleep again! +He's not happy kid is he? +No. +Not at all! +Crying like hell there! +Oh God! +Probably leaving him to cry again. +It's what? +She's probably leaving him to cry again. +Oh I know! +Easy innit? +What fo +Well unfortunately a lot of that he's got to stop you know. +Yeah, but you know what? +If they had some sort of party in there he's gonna go over the top you know. +Mm. +And then she wants him to go to bed after he gets hyper innit? +Yeah, but as I say a lot of that could be Doctor Spock's erm +Well it could be her, she can't be bothered! +Oh yeah, I know. +Just when I never had my thing. +Innit terrific ay? +Had to get a blinking day off didn't he, that bloke? +Well he isn't now though. +Yeah, not today though. +So as we said, it'll probably happen again! +It happens, and happens, and happens! +Dogs, kids and bloody shouting! +Terrific! +Love it! +Really make you worthwhile coming home don't it? +You love it really! +Ay? +I said you do love it really! +Do I? +Well, who knows I do, ay? +Surprised at that actually! +Dunno what to wear. +What? +You what? +Just don't know what to wear tomorrow. +Well, make your mind up in the morning. +Got plenty of nice stuff. +What? +I shall wait and see. +Yeah, well that's what I'm saying! +Try and few things on and go from there innit? +You'll come up with something. +Yep! +Right, nine o'clock alarm then. +Yeah. +I've got a spider in here! +You what? +I got a spider in here. +Big one? +No. +What's he doing in there? +An incy wincy spider! +Oh bloody hell kid, go to bed! +He shouldn't be up at this time! +He's not! +He's shut in his bedroom by the sound of it. +Oh! +Well do you wanna come in here? +No! +I think I'm tired enough. +Where's +Stopped. +this spider then? +He's under there. +What? +God! +Put him, put him on the whole of when you see him. +He's alright, he'll be asleep now. +Oh it's not there, I can't see him. +Oh! +I bet I wear +Yeah. +Right? +Well if you say that black skirt's alright I'm alright. +Well, I mean let's lets face it you'll be sat in the car you're gonna get crumpled aren't you? +Probably. +But, yeah, what were you saying then? +Er that white er, little top of mine with +Yeah. +erm the little vest one. +Vest, vest? +The one I wear in the canteen. +Oh yeah. +And my green erm +bolly +bolly +with the black skirt. +Yeah. +Be lovely! +Yeah, no, that'd be fine Bev. +Really! +Right, I'll have a little rest before I turn the T V off. +I think. +Well I'm going bed. +You've got a what? +I'm going . +Ni night love. +Oh! +Ho ho! +Not that cold though is it? +No. +Go to bloody sleep kid! +Ooh! +If only I had my thing! +He's just like Ross isn't he? +Mm. +Can you hear him? +No, I just heard the door go though. +Yeah. +Thing is, you know he's not next door to here, he's out on the in in the lawn area isn't he? +Our lawn area. +That's where the bedroom is innit? +Well I wonder how much of the bedroom? +Erm +When you see Helen next +Yeah, I'll ask her. +ask her. +I will. +Yeah. +Wanna know how much the bedroom is out there? +No, I don't know. +Cos it's cos if it's got +I can't really remem Ay? +couple of square feet +I can't remember. +it's coming into your area. +Yeah. +Maybe. +So you might have the door to the kid's bed underneath that wall. +See, he never used to be in this bloody room! +He was on the other room when she came here. +In the other room, at the other end. +That's why I never heard weren't it? +Mm. +But then she changed bedrooms lo , when that bloody other bloke came here. +But he's not happy kid! +No. +Oh! +Yeah but the quiet ones . +I dunno whether those people went you know. +They must have done. +Must of done tonight. +Cos, I say the car was down the road. +I've never known that! +Never! +Do you know what? +Mm? +I know it's a horrible thing to say +Mm? +but it's a shame nobody else +Mm? +got woken up last night. +Sort of somebody's put the the road. +If somebody wanted to get out quickly +Yeah. +and couldn't +Yeah. +and they went to the wrong door and said is this car anything +Well tha , that's right! +I mean erm I +Because say Gail and Keith go got woken up at three o'clock in the morning +Yeah. +and said +That's right! +is that your car outside? +Yeah. +Well Alan did it here one, one time. +Yeah. +And it wasn't us. +No, but you know what I mean? +Yes I do know what you mean. +Well +It'll be unfortunate for the couple that, whoever got woken up +Yeah. +But it might do something. +I know what you're meaning. +Cos you dunno what Alan might have done. +Ay? +You dunno what Alan might have done. +Well +If that car was there and +Yeah. +It, I think he got out and I I do he , I said to you and your father how he got out I just dunno! +Cos it's a very difficult road this. +Yeah. +But I think he did probably just, because when I got up er when I co , you see when I come down the stairs I can see through that window look +Mm. +and Alan's light was on in the hall, call it the hall and the car was there well a little while later he went. +I think he got out but I don't think it would have been easy, there's that time this morning. +And, I've never known these people put the car down by George's! +So, knowing Alan, do you remember somebody used to park their car in front of Alan's gate when they went to London? +Yeah. +And he left a note on the windscreen. +But I mean Alan has to go up to London! +It's not long after six o'clock in the morning that he leaves. +But er , I fully understand what you're saying. +Really! +Well I say some let's say Sandra wanted to get out +Yeah. +and couldn't and can't +Yeah! +Yeah! +Right? +Yeah. +And she should be able to. +But another thing is you see where Sandra lives, you saying that where she lives is apparently erm P C , now I don't know him, but she does he lives up the same road and when people park didn't she tell you this when we were coming down? +No , I don't mean that Sandra, I meant this one! +Oh Sandra over here? +Right? +Yeah. +Let's just say she couldn't out +Yeah. +and she went to Claire and George tonight +Yeah. +and said is anybody staying with you? +Oh yeah, that'd do it! +That would do it wouldn't it? +But, what I was gonna say was concerning them blocking these pavements if the +I know as we I was there when she +You were there when she said about P C . +Well if we had some I know there's two policemen up round the corner here. +Cos they walk down here, here +Is there any one in ? +Well P C I think is an older policeman. +Yeah, that's what I meant. +Mm. +These are two young-uns I reckon they lodge up here somewhere. +Not this road but round where Colin and +any policemen isn't she? +Ay? +You what? +The lodger, policeman. +Who did? +Linda. +Yeah, she did didn't she? +A nice one. +I forgot that. +Yeah. +Yeah. +But you see somebody like P C , being an older person he does it properly I suppose, is what +Yeah. +the answer is. +He goes and knocks people's door and says you're blocking the pavement! +Well if he'd have come down here that night, or that day when there was three cars in in the drive and one right across the pavement, and then that that big lorry on the pavement he'd have had them wouldn't he? +Yeah. +Went to bed and er of course the kid went berserk didn't he? +And er god you should of heard him, god if it ain't Ross all over again, mummy, mummy and she left him there, as I said when they first came he was in the far bedroom, well now I suppose with all these people she's rearranged it indoors and he's in the one next to our house, and she's shouting at him and er it went on how, I can't tell you how long, I mean, Bev and I was talking through bedrooms you know +Mm +and er, it was gone eleven I would of thought, anyway he stopped and I slept like a log, got up at twenty past six, but erm, it's a strange thing because one of those came last evening and it parked outside George's, now I said yesterday, when Alan goes to work, it's not long after six normally to go up to London and that +Mm +and I said to both of them, I just don't know how he got past that second car in the road right, come out of his drive, I couldn't believe that he could of done it, but he did, because he went you know +Yeah +anyway last night, they parked outside George's so I reckon, I mean it's only us thinking he's put a note in the door because he will do this, because when a bloke used to leave his car outside Alan's gate, others, instead of the station +Yeah +Alan left a note on his windscreen +but er, I don't know how he got out yesterday and I've never, never know him parked down the road, not at all, anyway we got, I got home and erm, I said to Bev you know, right go and phone Lesley see if she's in and then I did a bit of housework and then the phone rang, ooh, we was aiming to go out at one and that must of been ten to one, and it was Liz +Oh yeah +and er I said to Bev well you do what you like, you know, she went out, the first time she's answered the phone, since +Yeah +Anyway er Liz said can you come over like today so Bev said yes what does it entail? +Liz got quite cross you know she's quite oh bugger it, you know, and er she said to Liz what's the hours? +Oh I dunno you'll have to talk to Ian, she said I've been working Les done, er Les, Les told me eleven till three, it was half past eleven till three and er, so Bev was alright +That's exactly what we do +Yes, well Bev was asking, I mean I was doing housework, oh, I was doing bits and pieces you know, and er getting me coat and all that and er she was asking questions and all that and Liz said I'll pick you up at twenty past eleven, so Bev said alright then, so she come off the phone said she'd go and have a look and apparently erm, it must of been yesterday if, if Liz is telling the truth she said to whoever are you going to do anything about this? +And he said oh yeah, so, I said to Bev well, they had the feeling it was haphazard or whatever the word be, anyway +So she's going over about it +she's going over at half past eleven and she said to me if it's not worth the money I'm not changing and er, I shall tell him that I've certainly got to go on the books you know +Mm +can't do it any other way, so I said oh I'll go and have a look, I've got to go down town and +that's right +that's right, I mean she's, she's took some money, or taken some money if, I mean she'll be home twelve o'clock if it don't suit her like +Yeah +she'll only get a taxi, if er, she thinks it not viable, but er, it, it to me, it just seems not buggering about, but +I mean there are some places like that and +There are +people are quite happy to work there +Mm +and the pay is +Mm +pretty okay +Yeah, well I mean I don't know what she's been earning this Liz, but +oh where we going today then? +yeah +Who knows perhaps it's one of his days out +God knows, I don't, well so we'll see +we was late weren't we? +Or later +Yeah +he's a bit like her sort of in a dream +Did er +he doesn't realize that you're sort of there seeing him +did erm, did he ask you if you had a roof rack? +No +No +a what? +A roof rack, he wants to borrow one for Sunday, cos Susan's coming back look, anyway she asked me and I said no we've never had one, I don't think we ever had, I said I'll ask Doreen, so I asked Doreen and she said yes we have, but I'd have to ask Leslie first, so when Dee come back I said yes she has, but don't say anything to her cos you might not get it, but she's not getting that. +No Margarette's got, erm the two bars hi Doreen +Morning Doreen +you know when you get two bars as opposed +Mm +to a complete effort +Oh I know what I was gonna say +on her +Norman Gates , they're trying to clo close Norman Gates +Yeah that's been in the erm Echo +Oh dear me +That's been in the papers the last few weeks +there's a person down the bottom, you know in Paul's old house, their little kid goes there, I didn't know nothing about it. +Yeah, their, they're still behind +aren't they? +I think they are actually yeah yeah I don't know +Cos the other, that's it, that's, what's the one we've got up by us? +What Walberdeen? +I've go the Walberdeen one +Yeah, yeah, is that a special school? +Somewhat +Oh +yes it's not a normal one, but I don't +No +quite know +no, I mean years ago that's where we all went that +Yes +area you see +No Anton took over +normal school yeah +Anton Junior +Yeah +took over from Walberdeen +Yeah, but er, it says two hundred and something for the +two, seventeen was it? +That's what the Echo says for the +Yeah +town and then when you go out and in villages +yeah +it +yeah but actually the paper boy was late this morning and we didn't get erm mid week +Didn't you? +No +if there's one here I'll take it, I've done up Howard's +Had mine Monday night again +No we didn't get one, I, I've gotta go to the post office today so any post that's gotta go there I said I'll take the lot and save tomorrow lot +Mm +Mm +and er got, no we never had one cos Les said no I remember we didn't get one this week, cos she would of had a look through you know +Yeah +so if there's one here I'll have it +Mm, what, where +That's that woman who looks after Dee Dee's sister +Mm +does that and all, and er she had a da , she went to the authorities about that woman +Yeah, did she get anywhere? +Well I don't know, but she, I said, cos she's telling me about her coming, only three days up the hospital then she's gotta go back to her own place because Ian said she'd never managed, she keeps falling and she said this woman never went to see her once when she was in hospital, yet she's getting paid it look all the time, and she ought to go to see if there's anything she wants you see +Yeah +and er, I said, morning, I said er +Morning +has she been any better this woman cos she was always on about her, and she said no, she said I went to higher authorities about it, is that it? +is letting another, so many off, don't know what it said +I would think so, I don't know how many it was +Eh? +are laying some more off +Yeah cos I +no I, it would +interview +it was double figures but I can't erm, I can't remember +eh? +but er, as I say I can't remember precisely, I just scanned it and give it to Mick who was out the door like, Lesley put her house up for a hundred and twenty six erm, one how much is it? +a hundred thousand, a hundred and twenty six thousand, hundred and twenty six thousand +That four bedroomed detached? +Yeah, yeah en suite +She might get it +Eh? +She might +well it's er, it's a funny thing that is because they all gone, now they were supposedly around a hundred thousand look, when they took it on and they've all gone, there ain't any there new ones +But she still hasn't had any body in to see it +No but it is a strange thing because sometimes you get my end of the market and you get somebody wants her end of the market, but erm +Well the ones that have got more money, you know, the maximum money +Yeah +they're gonna go for the best there is +Oh they're gonna go for +and they're gonna go out of town detached +Yeah, yeah +as much as they can get +that's right +as opposed to +Yeah +I mean up our road they don't fetch that much, but there are one or two +Yeah +even bigger and more detached than ours +Mm, yeah, but erm +but, you know +it's not even +get a choice of two +it's not even something like +cos their er home yesterday look Jody went back to work and there was Bill and Scott +He's still at school? +Yeah +Yeah, another year +and er, she's got two more raises at school, they'll give him a credit and then wrote him a letter saying that he'll probably be expelled again, of course she went busting up there +No wonder you said about the credit +Yeah +Thought he turned over +Yeah +a new leaf +yeah , well the thing was he Peter gave him a key +Peter gave him a key to come in the flat any time, you know, of course he did didn't he, he was +well you know what he had in there, he's now got one girlfriend, he ditched Paula +This one comes from Southampton, but he worked on it didn't he? +Out of work again isn't he? +Well I said to her my god you've got a load of +you've got a load of problems +Absolutely +She has, she really has +what? +It's wet innit? +It must of rained cos I, the thing here pots full of water +Yeah, well it, well, I +got up late, twenty past six, the kid was going berserk when we went to bed +We erm, were they? +The kid was +Yeah +my erm, screaming, shouting +The garden was dry out the front on the top you know +Yeah +like summer and it's wet today +Yeah, but erm +as I say we went to bed her and I +Mm +and he was well +Yelling +she was shouting at him, didn't hear any dogs, and erm, it was gone eleven, must of been +Yeah it was +before it stopped and then of course I slept like a bloody log until about twenty past seven +Yeah and you er I ov I overslept, well I woke up at five and normally I think if I go to sleep now and I sort of get myself awake but today I must of turned over +Yeah +and it was right on six when I got up +yeah +I don't have to come out until seven +no +near, well not quite seven so I mean I don't have to do a lot but I just liked to er take my time and you know +Well I, I did nothing , I did nothing you see because erm, by the time I'd been in the bathroom done the sandwiches +Yeah +blah, blah, got myself a cup of tea, blah, blah, blah, got on me coat +Mm +out the door and that really is, I mean half past eight the other day it was awful +Mm +awful, but by god did he go, I said to Sandra it's Ross all over again, funny innit but she's got no +But did she, did a +time for him Doreen +Well that is the trouble I expect you see +he's pushed from pillar to post this kid +Like the other one +erm and when she has all these people in, he's up, he's not in bed +No +he, er, he, when he went, when he first come there, he used to go to bed seven o'clock +Mm +but she said, well the last lot that I've got +but one of the times when we were not chatty, but talked, she said how naughty he'd got, but I mean she's never with him +Well, cos I mean if he goes to school now and he didn't, he picked up things and then +Well I, I +he's not got +he's, he's +time for and well that is it innit, well if she's not got time for him +Well what do you mean? +Well that is it, not got the patience have they? +But he weren't like that when they came he weren't like erm Wayne, Celia's Wayne, I mean he's been like it forever +Yeah +and Ross was rotten spoilt, you know, there's +but this one seems to of gone haywire, oh does he go, but as I say she's changed the bedrooms you see, he used to be on the far end +Mm +erm with an outside wall but he's not +Can't be helped with the +can it in those rooms with the dogs +No, well that boy had to +a day off didn't he? +Oh +Anyway I'm hopeful that he'll be in today, because I mean the noise won't stop, so I mean when I report it, it just goes on +Mm, mm +it just goes on, but I said to Sandra where they've been parking all these cars, Alan over the road he comes out just after six o'clock and goes to London every day and I don't know how he got his car out with the +No +but he did, anyway last night when these, this car arrived, they parked it down the road outside George's, well I've never known that and I reckon Alan's put a note through the door +Could of done, yeah +but I, I mean Bev said you ought to go over at six o'clock in the morning, bang the bloody door +Yeah make them get up and say can you move +Yeah, yeah +I don't know how he got out, I mean our road is so difficult anyway, of course there wa , that night there were two, yeah two when them, he had to get out in the morning, but er, I mean he did it, but I expect it was a struggle +Mm +you know you have to go backwards and forwards +Yeah +shake yourself round, but I've never know that last night +Yeah sometimes when Rosemary was here, we didn't have any bother or anything but now and again somebody, she did their hair at the time +Oh yeah +dress making and er somebody would park outside our house, not by the drive, but there but to get in Les had to swing over and round +That's it +and then when they were +he couldn't swing much so he had to go down and back in but er +That's what you have to do +it was only occasionally, I mean no bother with it or each other +I mean this is virtually every day +Yeah +every day now, now I mean I don't know how many she's got living in there or what they've got living in there, they stay +overnight and if they generally do that it's two more car loads +Mm +We've got British Telecom outside our house for six weeks +Yeah +the other morning I +hell of a squeak of brakes and they had two vans and as you used to turn the corner by Swatons, the bollards are out +Yeah +the wrong, the wrong side of the road, of course you've got the blind bend, somebody had gone round there, somebody else was coming down old Whitton Road legally +Mm, mm +Oh my god +and they sort of met and how they didn't hit I don't know but at the moment it's, well get the car back today it's er been away being done, cos somebody smashed into him +Oh no +he managed to pull it out, he, they smashed all the front wing in, he was parked +outside a customer's house and all of a sudden there was a knock at the door +getting to the end, you know the important bit of the sale +Someone bashed you +got +and it was a young girl next door, a car +backed out of her parents' drive +Mm +well drove out and turned, her bumper caught Mick's wing and right up against the wheel so imagine to pull it out to drive it and the driver said oh won't claim on the insurance she said, erm, I'll pay it, get three estimates and let me have them and Mick said it's gonna be about three hundred quid, well if it had gone through the insurance he could then have put in for a hire car +Oh yeah +of course he couldn't, he said oh well he said what's the point +so he hadn't been working, earning money, he knocked a hole in the dining room from the lounge wall yesterday +Well I, I, I have got +cos I say +and the worse is the mess is, my god +Well I have to say Sandra that I would, alright you've got a lot of mess, but I have to say I'd sooner have one like that than +well we've tongued and grooved +Just as well we haven't got next door neighbour +right +joined on +tongued and grooved or, or something pine for the kitchen wall, do it, pay it, forget it right, so, I mean I don't know what wood I mean we'd have, we'd have to see it, but I said to him look I said something's gotta be done, so I said to him shall we get Gary or somebody similar to do some Artexing in here and he said well with the coal fire and all that he said it'll, it'll get dirty +Mm +which it will won't it? +Mm +And erm, so I said alright then give me some suggestions, because when we moved out of erm Milton Avenue, Diane and Harry immediately did the walls wood in the kitchen, about the same size as mine +Mm +and it looked like +Andrew's got that in his bathroom half way, that's what he said +and then he's got a moulded piece along the top of it and then he's +Yeah +got the wall paper, it looks ever so nice +does, does it? +rubbed it all down and +And that would be alright in a, in a bathroom you know +Dean's got a complete pine bathroom +Has he? +he's boxed his bathroom in pine and +that wood stuff and then varnished +well I said to him +It looks nice very nice it looks +look I said I don't mind vinyl, I don't mind good vinyl the only good, the only one that, it was good for the toilet, but I got it in a pack cos we've got such a small single toilet +Mm +I got it in a pack outside Fads +Mm +but if you believe the proper price +Mm +I mean it was just three rolls +I know it's terrible the price of it, weren't it? +When you go, at Tesco's they've got a sale ain't they? +that, that quick one Texas +Yeah +twenty five is it or twenty percent off or something, but I think I don't know some of the stuff when you +Well I said to him look, I said I know I'm fed up with this thing next door, and I don't want to stay there, but Alan said that I've got to stay there, right, so I said to him, you know, we have to start doing something and I said to him something permanent because he ain't a handy man, I mean he'll do it, because I mean it's something like measuring steel innit? +Let's be honest +But you've got to keep on and that yeah, that's right, yeah +but I said to him, I'll go and buy vinyl and we can come back into the same position, and he ain't no good at sticking vinyl up, I always go round with a bloody +then I have to do something I suppose before we look round it'll be August we'll be off to Malta +Mm and then it's the winter again +and then he'll look round and +winter comes so quick +So quick and he said alright then I erm, I said well where shall we go and he said there's plenty of places +Mm +to buy wood +I mean I know nothing +As I say next we're getting this Phillip's +this Phillip, he does a lot, I mean I don't like Phillip's but as I say +my Ian says that, Ian says that +That's a lot, I mean that wooden fence we had I mean, a lot of garden fences are dear, but it was a pound cheaper in the garden centre at Tesco's +We've got one there +Most of B & Q stuffs are cheaper +B & Q's nice +Yeah, where is that builders that +There's one at Thatcham +Thatcham? +just outside Newbury you have to go on the M four +B & Q at, one at Basingstoke +Is there? +it's on the dual carriageway as you go in on the +But if not , otherwise I'm gonna go up the +I mean I shout up to the bathroom, I mean +There's a big one at Millbrook +Tim's coming up to move the bath back and all that you see, this old bath and erm, do some pipe work, but until that's all done, erm, er, until this woman is sorted out, because if I find in the end we've got to insulate again, then I know how I feel, I mean that tongue and groove going up polystyrene in the lounge and yesterday I think he's got a new organ +yeah, I think it's an organ, and that, that is all in those two recesses, now, you know if I find you know that I don't get anywhere and I can't see that I won't, but if, because the bathroom is where the dog is there, of course consequently that comes through the corner of the lounge +Mm +erm, well before wherever you put anything, you know, finished article on the bathroom wall, that one wall we might have to do whatever they allow +Mm +because this is, I mean I didn't hear the dogs last night, only the kid, but I mean nevertheless the day before if you'd of been in there, so but, but the kitchen can be done, toilet can be done +Mm +We don't want tiles now look +and I think he's got all the tiles now there's a load of tiles going cheap in there +I know, and this is what I said, he said I know I don't really want the old vinyl, do it anyway +oh it's a pig of a job +Yeah I remember you have to +It's alright if your walls are absolutely +Yeah they're not +flat +I mean I remember Mike I mean that house had +mine is absolutely I mean it's, it looks fine and it's done, but if you actually put the skirt level there are actual places +Mm, mm yeah +Well when you walked in my porch when those blokes were doing it, you walked in there, I mean it's nice, it's a wrong suite for the for the room, too narrow the room for one of those +Mm +I think +Mm +but the minute you walk in a shop, pretty curtains, Austrian blinds, a new shower +the minute you walk in there you look at this lump +Our wall is flat +because the wall +but when Pete was doing the sides of the erm lounge and he erm put that coving up +round it +and got sort of in the hall, ha, and you can just about see it +Yeah +now, it's sort of wall goes +your eyes go on it +down +Oh yes +and he said crikey look at this, what am I gonna do here and he sort of had to fill quite a big gap in, but he sort of pushed it and filled it and then the wallpaper goes up so you can just see it, a little bit, what's a name now, just in the hall there's a bit +Ours shows because it's not a bold pattern it's very subdued +Mm +but it's a lot like a chevron +Mm, mm +so you've got your pattern down, because when you've got something like that +Yeah +it's fine, until, unless you actually look +that's right yeah +go all round the ceiling line, round, the pattern all matches, and the pattern +Yeah +you walk round the room this side and it's all level, it's when you get up the top +Yeah, it's just in this one top part in the corner +well the bit where it meets, pattern should be over the door, so it's not until you're in the room and looking back out +not back over, yeah +but when he did it I said oh my god you know I said yeah, but you know it's there +Yeah, like where I sit in my chair if I look up there I can see it, but as I say it's not there all the wallpaper +it doesn't, but when he first sort of put it up, I thought oh crumbs look at that +Yes, I must admit I had one or two people going up the loo and looking, I mean people stop and look when we first had all the stuff outside, you know, what you doing in there? +Because then they could see the conservatory gradually taking shape +Mm +but +yeah lovely +it will be nice when it's done, I mean last weekend he sorted out the doorway which wasn't half knocking out +but Annette was out yesterday after work and she come in and she sort of opened the door, good god she said just as well I'm not sitting in to watch television, well you couldn't +until about half past nine, when they said right that's all the dir dirty work done, he said I'm going up to have a shower and he put the carpet, rolled the carpet half back, and picked up a load of mess and we had polythene dust sheets over it +and the dust that had got underneath was absolutely thick +Mm, you wouldn't know , you wouldn't believe it would you? +the television the video and all that +When they'd be just our, our patio doors for weeks on, still finding dust +Well you do +washed and +Mick was drilling, he put the framework round to drill up against +hammer drill, he says to me do us a favour so I said what? +He said stand there +with the hose of the vacuum cleaner with the nozzle on +yeah +so while he's drilling +sucking it up +Of course he's tried to get under a polythene sheet to contain it +Right, is like the dentist +it was hot, it was dust in that hammer drill, god it makes a noise, it did, it certainly saved a lot though +Yeah +it filled the hoover bag twice, the old vacuum cleaner +Yeah it was like when my mother-in-law had the +But if, if he hadn't been doing that +it was awful up and down +Well if we want this kitchen, well a lot of it is tiled anyway you know part ways up, erm I said to him whatever it costs, it'll be done +They obviously didn't like it, there was nothing dif , there wasn't definitely said but there was some +Yeah +comment, and another time I'd lit up a cigarette you know +Have a nice weekend +Bye +See you +ta ta +ta ta +see you +I do I +I never heard a word +She never mentioned it to me, so +Well erm, she never said nothing, ta ta, and er Doreen never said nothing and Dee Dee never said nothing, I mean all I said to Dee was you might get it tomorrow if Lesley lets her, well Lesley wouldn't unless she forgot it of course, there's always that isn't there? +Ain't it gone dull? +It was so brilliant and +Yeah +well I've got to go to town only I dunno whether she's gone, can't be gone yet, twenty past +No she's got Andrew's er, she was talking to Andrew and Andrew happen to say +airport for something, I don't really know +Yeah I know what it is, erm Susan's given all the info except the er +Yeah, but, no Anton had to make a phone call anyway and he said while he was on the phone +No, oh I didn't know that +he would do +Yeah +for her +terminal weren't it? +Yeah terminal one +Is it? +plus Andrew said ten thirty and Susan had said ten o'clock +Oh yeah, no +British Airways was due in at ten thirty +Oh +then he stood there explaining, I mean he's driven up to Heathrow a lot +Mm, yeah +telling her all the signs and what to look out for +I haven't been to Heathrow as much as I'd been to Gatwick +I've never actually flown from Heathrow, I've been +No I haven't +we've been up there several times to +no Bev's flown but when I've gone up with her +to the spectator area, you know when you've got to spend the day there +I don't think I ever have done Heathrow, oh wait a minute, did I the first year? +Took the kids up +No I don't know +took the kids up a couple of times and then Mick and I have been up there with the +and you go the long stay car park and +and watch the aircraft +Yeah, yeah +but we spent, spent the, well half a day at Queens Terminal at Paper Gallery +No I have flown from there it was +mother did when she +But I've been up there cos Bev's done a couple from +yeah mother went out to Robert's wedding +Heathrow oh yeah +flew out with Robert that went +erm +from Heathrow, that was a schedule flight +Sue was on about her daughter living with that bloke like, I don't know if it was the same bloke, I just dunno, yes it is, yes it is, it's gotta be the one, when she broke her shoulder, it's gotta be, anyway he got no job and Sarah got this good job apparently wherever it is, I can't remember where it was +well she got what she wanted then, whatever it is anyway, she's keeping him virtually and they got this flat, whatever they've got, and erm +Long wearing tan +yeah, they'll be, and she's always moaning driving Sue up the wall, why should I keep him blah, blah, blah, blah, doing nothing, we sit and look at each other and Sue said for Christ sake she said you're twenty years old, not forty, she'd been bad on and off again, throat, well she had the shoulder, throat er she thought she had, oh the diabetes was one weren't it, diabetes one, they thought she had, thought that she had glandular fever but she hasn't and er, so Sue said to her well are you looking after yourself and she said yes I am, Sue said well I dunno she never seems to be, cos she's never been well has she really? +No +I mean you have to wonder +I mean they all joined the club but Sue used to +mm, anyway not only that one Emma erm been +she don't want to go to college or something new and erm she's doing something, must be finals I would think, think it must be finals and er Sue said to her well should she pack up +Yeah she's a couple of years younger so she's +Mm +probably got A levels this May, whatever +erm should she pack up her Saturday job, it pays around twenty pound and it will go up to about twenty five, and Sue and Will sat and talked about it and she got, she's surprising been interviewed for the W R A F but I mean that's not gonna be so easy these days, I mean they're gonna take the exceptionals that they need aren't they? +And Sue said she's got nothing in view apart from that and she said to her you must have alternatives, she's not applied to anybody or enquired about anything +Police Force are recruiting +again +Are they? +Mm +Well erm,gor +Government said that you now get +well Hampshire was supposed to have some more weren't they? +Yeah, they've been advertising in the Echo +Well +they recruit +well, erm tisn't, she's not, she wants the W R A F and nothing else and Sue said you can't be like that, you know, and er, so they've decided that she's gotta carry on with this Saturday job because she won't be able to go on the dole look, straight away will she? +No +And Income Support I think is, what did she say for her age twenty I think +I know +twenty pound or something +Yeah there's, there's a catchment anyway, I mean when they've finished school, college or whatever +Mm +they're not working or on a scheme +Mm that's something innit? +there's nothing +That's right +something , something like, like that, anyway so she said er +she said it's hard enough for people with jobs to exist today without all this and she's gone back to college on the flexi idea, erm, brush up her typing because she said, now whether she's thinking of future years, she said when she left here that time, although she got that job she said it wasn't easy, she said because I had no bits of paper as such, although when I did the test I passed it, she said it wasn't simple, so she's doing +Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and not sure about Friday evening and er she said then she'll have trouble getting the money over that's out of them, why the redundancy because been there over two year, so I presume redundancy or holidays or both so Sue said to her well if they were so good to you in the past, but that ain't the point is it? +They did all, they did +Mm +on their own back, she didn't ask for it and June ain't worked since Christmas, so er, I says I know what it's like with my sister and I mean she's been right in it ain't she? +Yeah last week +Both of them are +had two phone calls +Yeah +one was an agency in Andover +Aha +with a job, they were gonna put her forward +Yeah +so she hopes then +something will come +if they put her name forward she might get an interview for that, the other one was an agency in Basingstoke +Yeah +most of them were secretary, audio typist +Yeah +jobs, so she said that was Wednesday +Aha +so she was hoping to wait and see. +waiting to hear no, oh well hopeful then. +Last night we had a phone call, oh it frightened me at first actually, I answered the phone +Yeah +said is Miss there, Tina, I said yes who's calling? +Cos she was still busy you know +Yeah +Forte Travel Lodge, and I thought shit, and of course the thing that went through my mind was when Graham's out on the road +He goes er +he stays over sometimes I mean +yeah somewhere +of course obviously now I don't know what he's doing from day to day +No of course you don't +er, first thing I thought oh my god something's happened with them +Yeah +and he's at Travel Lodge and somebody's phoning +Yeah, yeah +why ain't they phoning Margarette, so anyway, shouted out to him and he wouldn't do +I said it's Forte Travel Lodge, he said what they bloody +I said I don't know, and I stood there when he was +Of course +all he was doing was listening at first and I thought oh no it's so long +it +it turned out when he put the phone down, he said well there's a turn up, there she is +Who? +erm, she work as a chamber maid at the weekend or whatever for some spare cash +What this one? +Yeah +Oh, see you. + +So they're making a new dictionary? +It's not writing sound sound. +Instead of people having to read up the words in a dictionary it's gonna be a sound dictionary. +Speak. +be able to speak to the, to the machine +Mhm. +and it will speak back what, what the meaning of that word is like with an ordinary dictionary. +That's what they are researching to do. +all different meanings of the wor but can you not just look at the dictionary and read the dictionary ? +Pardon? +Can you not just read the dictionary ? +You know just look up in the dictionary +Yeah but er it was set up because of for foreigners words to pronounce the words properly, that's why they wanted +different people,of people to do sections pensioners er shopkeeper and a +Oh yes cos there must have been, that was John doing that this is oh this is great fun he says, and he er Johnny was saying that erm if he whispered he would only speak up louder. +What he knows about these things would be great. +And he was saying that it's erm a speaking dic dictionary, that's what they're going to researching for +Mhm. +a spoken dictionary. +And he said what they're tr er what they want to do is erm pick out a word pick out a word and then in a conversation they would fi find out how many meanings to that one word. +Oh right. +You know er on er or how many spellings Eng in the English language, through though, though throughout, thorough, all spelt the, near enough the same +but all d all different meanings and they could pick out and I said well erm it would er be handy for foreign people to have a speaking dictionary because they would be able to pick up the pronunciation of that word wouldn't they? +Mhm. +Instead of reading it down, I mean say a Frenchman reading it down, say through erm +He wouldn't understand that would he? +he wouldn't understand that. +No. +And th they could get the pronunciation as well, be able to, to speak it properly besides spelling it. +And they I think you would learn languages quickly by that way. +Oh yeah +So I think that's, I think that's what's gonna happen. +So erm +Well does will you still hear yourself Katie? +Where that is. +I suppose so. +I had mine away up here. +Did you? +Yeah your voice +your voice over you know +You know what, my voice was +Ah +I'd of I just +Could you? +Yes +Imagine putting three tapes on +Oh yeah! +Well I have not stopped +come home. +Not I went to bed last night at twelve o'clock John and Ryan was in bed about twelve I think, the two of them just fell straight to sleep. +Did you mind him going over there, staying over there ? +No I did not, I asked him if he wanted to stay. +Did you? +Mhm. +He walked out +I +walked out of here in a huff +Did he? +Yeah See er John's a bit too, well he's a bit oldish or old in his ways to to have the responsibility of youngsters. +Mm. +He, he can't let them go. +He's worried about them the whole time. +I think that Ryan was saying something that John fell out with him because of his motorbike. +Yeah. +He says John's won't speak to me now because of the motorbike and er I says oh Ryan you must be imagining things, he says no he says he just won't talk to me because I've got the motorbike. +Well I said maybe +maybe he's worried about you falling off it or +Well he is worried about them having an accident with it but, but he's not er worried about him having the motorbike, no he cos he would have done the same as a er child anyway well things like that, but erm what he's worried about is that er with Ryan i and the other boy,n not Ryan so much, the other boy does it all the time, they're churning all the grass up all over there in great big +Well that's because Ryan +Yeah. +Well he goes like lightning over there +Yeah well the police are down here watching and what J er what erm John, John's worried about is that erm the police have been along here and they've had, had complaints and John was out at the gate and he was talking to them and they, they'll fine them. +And John says like Joan can't afford to p to pay fines. +So +I don't think John's ever on Ryan's mind you. +Oh he, he has +Has he? +he has been on it yeah +Has he been on it? +And then of course going up and down here see there's the notice up there no motorbikes. +Aye there's five, I think there's five courses now closed down, there's only two left. +They're only allowed in two Ryan said. +So where them two are I don't know. +What the courses? +Mhm. +Yeah. +But this, this path it's against the law to ride on. +Yeah. +See they've got, on the, on the lamp post there they've got the signs up. +Mhm. +And like John said if they, the way they come along here so fast if any child came out of their back gate they'd have no chance. +Mm. +No chance of stopping, they would kill theirselves. +Ryan used to wheel it down before I went to hospital he used to wheel it down but he, now I see he rides it down. +Yeah that's because he's with the other boy. +See when they're with others. +There's there's eleven, eleven +Is there? +or twelve of them. +Yeah. +Yeah if they only wh wheeled it down and then they're allowed on the paths +I'll have a word with him. +round. +And er but not where there's houses, it's like a car +That's right. +you've got your thirty mile limit +That's right. +wha er like +It's true you know if a di if a child did come out the gate, with that wee fella yesterday I saw him he was with Ryan and he went up that path like lightning. +Yeah. +Yeah. +I heard Ryan coming on a good wee bit behind him, but this,up that path like, I says to if that wee fella fell off that bike he's killed. +Yes. +Yes +But his coat his coat was flapping like that. +yeah. +And, or else he'd be severely injured that he's got the, the family rest of their life having to look after him and and could kill somebody. +Couldn't couldn't +See cos there's no insurance or licence +Well Ryan Ryan, he's insured. +Is he? +Mhm. +We've had, we've them insured from when they were born. +Aha. +But fr +but insured for riding a bike? +No. +No, see they're, they're supposed to have an insurance mechanical and a licence. +So they could be stopped. +I think the, the police are just watching +Mm. +but if they really catch them cos they're down here a lot now because of er what's going on underneath those arches +Ooh them arches are terrible Kate. +Ooh the other night you never heard +drugs oh dear dear. +But a lot of them young kids of twelve year old, twelve to thirteen +Yeah, yeah course i it's when they're +in with a crowd they, they, they get a bit you know,dar daredevils, they ooh, they want to do it. +But it's only when they're in a crowd but course, among that crowd are some that are bad and some that are good get carried along with them, that's +Mm that's the thing. +that, that's the trouble. +And that's true you know Lindsey's far too old for her age or you'd think she was o she er oh she was like Andrea +Yeah. +Yes, yeah, yeah +you know the way Andrea was at that age? +You would have swore she was seventeen +Yes, mhm. +well Lindsey, mind she smoking when she was twelve and drinking and she didn't like it she says because it made her head go all funny and she didn't know what was going on, what was happening. +Oh dear +But she says mummy I didn't like that feeling. +And +Ah +she says I didn't take any more, and I haven't taken any more. +And I cried, I must have cried Kate for two hours. +Yeah I know it's awful worry, if they only understood how, how the parents worry about it. +Well then I must have cried for two hours and +Yeah. +After all the, the and feeling great just knocked the +Course it do course it do. +That's wh that's what er any er John gets t touchy because he can't really, big man he is, he, he can't really take responsibility +Mhm. +and he thinks that while the children are here, he's responsible for every move. +It's got so that he was the same with Joan, +you have to let +you have to let go. +have to let go. +Erm +Because I found with Lindsey, anyway, with Ryan I had no trouble or nothing cos the only +Yeah. +bother I've ever had with him, and he goes on to it and away he goes and he'll come back in the house and he'll go up the stairs to the computer, and that's his life. +But with Lindsey it was the smoking, the drinking staying out, out pretending she was babysitting erm ringing her daddy home and saying daddy can I babysit the night till half eleven and her daddy's thinking that she was telling the truth +Yeah that +and then he's saying yes as long as you, you are babysitting +Aha. +and she wasn't babysitting, she was out till half eleven at night +Aha. +and I phoned one night late and, it was late and I phoned for I wanted her to come home, and I was it was quarter to twelve and said she's not home yet. +Well Kate what a night I spent and I must have phoned +Yeah +every ten minutes. +So she arrived, eventually arrived in at quarter to twelve. +She said she'd been babysitting, but then and the doors and and and I this filthy, filthy, dirty letter somebody had written to her, some other girl +Aha yeah +that she'd chummed about with had written to her +Mhm. +and we were gonna get the police to ge w well i it just said the, the short name and we thought it was a boy that had written and if it had've been we were gonna get the police because she's under age you see. +She's under age, yeah. +Mhm. +And er I so so I brought her and her three friends that she'd run, chummed about with them and I give them a good talking to for about an hour. +I and er told Lindsey if she'd ever any problems never to write them down to a friend +Yeah +but to come to me +do you, do you want this off? +No no but suppose some other mother may be listening to it have go through the same thing. +Mhm. +But she's getting carried away with this, though her friends are good enough but they're all getting carried away as you would say with a bad crowd. +Yeah, yes it's only wants one bad one among the crowd, like a ba a b bad apple, go through the lot. +I'm having the trouble with her at the moment. +But what chance have they got round here? +I mean that's the that's the attitude of +Well there's nothing for them +of the majority of them isn't it? +there is nothing for them. +Nothing. +Well thank God Joan's gone through that period. +She was the same. +She used to say, say, phone up and say she was and I used to say well where give me the address, just anything happens to us +Mhm. +we can get in touch, well she'd never give the address of where she was babysitting. +And she'd, she'd even get her girlfriend's mother to ring up to say she was staying there the night, the mothers used to s ring up Joan tell them that it was al alright for er for er Andrea to stay there the night and she was never, she was camping out in the fields with a crowd of them oh +go through it you know. +Yeah. +You don't realize you're going through it. +I never realized what I put my mother through when I was going +And it was er +through it my, myself. +No. +Oh w well I don't think the temptations were there when we were younger. +No. +Not like the I feel sorry +Even conversation like me and you talking here, the children would have been put outside +Yeah. +or up on their beds or something. +That's right. +Not allowed to speak +No. +or anything like that. +Didn't do us any harm +Eilleen, did it? +All this strict upbringing. +My father was very strict +Well that's what fourteen, and I've had never no trouble with him. +No. +Never ever had a, except he he goes mad when he gets older but I don't think it's him +No, no see eventually +you know +er when Pearl, my other daughter came over Christmas, course Andrea was more or less still going through a bit of a rough period with between her grandfather and her, you know? +Erm and she's had seven youngsters and she's brought them up and she a , on her own she's had to bring them up cos he left her for another, another woman and erm she had the seven and she's worked and fought hard cos she wouldn't ask for a darn thing and er they're, they're great those kids, they are, they're a credit to her, you know, but it's taken it out of her, she's +That's what I said, it takes it out of you. +Ooh! +It's taken it out of her but she's +fought hard for them but she's been very +I've marvelled at her cos as a youngster I never thought she was capable of doing what she's done, and she's brought them up fine and fair. +She's, she's let go when she knew that she ought to let go. +And she, she had a go at er Johnny here, she said you +Well when do you let go Kate? +she said you, you've got to tr you've got to trust them and, and +But when you trust them and then they tell you lies what do you do? +Yeah yeah but +You know I just can't er +but she said but Pearl said what's in them when they're born what take after their mother and their father that'll come out in the finish. +They go through these periods of revolting against their sort of erm tight upbringing +Mhm. +and they revolt against it and you've just gotta keep your fingers crossed that nothing happens to them in that period. +But they do come out of it cos Joan's, Joan's had +Mine's just going through it very young though. +Yeah, well Joan was, Joan was the same and she's a different girl altogether, she's, she's absolutely great. +Cos it's, it's there, it's her nature like Pearl said, her nature as she is will +When I look at Lindsey +come out the same. +when I look at Lindsey and what she's doing at the minute, I look back to my own life at her age +Mhm. +I was doing exactly the same. +Were you? +Aha. +You know +Yeah. +when I, I was staying out late at night, I was going against my mother, every word she said it was wrong you know I wanted to do my own thing and +Oh yeah, aha, yeah. +I see an awful, awful lot of Lindsey in me. +Mhm. +What I used to be like not, not as young as her like +No. +you know +No of course that's all gradually gone on see, I mean when even when er at fourteen, fifteen we, we had to be, all be in bed asleep before nine o'clock at night. +What are you going in there for? +John +And he would be the right one to b be on this because I mean he's so intelligent, he would but he won't even I think he must of turned that tape on yesterday. +Aye +But he speaks the, the wo A Ann was her name, she said that he speaks too softly to to go on to that. +Well I don't suppose they'll, they'll never understand me I don't suppose. +Oh dear +They only pick out a word word here and there see +Oh +Yeah. +Aha. +Yeah. +Joan's just rung see they come over for, all of them come over for dinner every Sunday, and er Joan's er Andrea's going out with a crowd of them today she's in with a nice girl a girl er married and the husband, he's treats Andrea as if it's a baby sister, so he's more or less looking after her which is Joan's very pleased about +Mhm. +and they live near them and his wife's, he's away from home a lot, so his wife's happy because she's got Joan for company and gradually she's getting her old self and she won't be coming over today so she's phoned her granddad up to let him know so he won't be worried. +It gets to them in the finish and there's about eight of them +all going out for a Chinese because it's this girl's birthday tomorrow, so there's er eight of them all going out. +Well Lindsey she's to go to a disco night in in a fortnight's time all her friends she says are going. +So I says only on one condition if your daddy pi leaves you at the door at school and picks you up +Oh yeah. +after. +Mhm. +Well you can't get out to get drunk or do anything bad. +Well she'll be in the school there'll be, there'll be teachers there that'll be watching over them +Yeah. +you know and she says well I said that's the only way Lindsey you're going to get it and I says I mean that's the only way you're going to get it. +So er she says well you can think about it for a fortnight er you see her daddy put out discos altogether because of the lies but she cos she gets nervous because when she's telling a lie to you she'll go red +Red. +Oh you can read their faces can't you? +You don't even have to look at her face, you just have to look at her neck. +Yeah. +Yeah. +I blame myself you see for going in the hospital. +Now this is the first weekend Kate we'd really a good weekend you know I've worked and worked and last weekend I could do nothing. +The weekend before that they only allowed me out one day overnight +So do you feel better in yourself then? +I feel great. +Yeah, oh great. +You're not, have you still got +to do that six months or not? +No. +Oh good. +Oh good, yeah. +Well that was hanging over your head. +Oh that was, I, I was waiting on them saying and you see you're constantly worry of what's going on at home, and that's not helping really. +Yeah aha. +Whereas when you are at home +I've just said are you still having to do the six months, it'll sound as if you're getting a prison sentence +Well it is a prison sentence let me tell you +It is like, yeah, instead of having for, for, for treat treatment +for you're watched where you're going and you're followed where you're going. +Oh yes I mean their attitude there is not very good is it? +Not, it's n no good f to help. +Well I'm going in this weekend, I've to go in tomorrow morning, and I'm gonna just say I want to go home. +But then they'll and say wait till Thursday till the round, the doctor's round. +See even if it's only for the three days +Oh of course the doctor's got to sign you off anyway hasn't he? +I'd rather have the doctor saying that I can't go home rather than me signing myself out. +Yeah, oh yes +But you see you worry about Lindsey at home. +Yeah. +Well her daddy he's not so bad, he's I think he has two long days but as you say well sh sh you can't +be with them every twenty four hours of the day can you? +No, no, no. +Only +but we had the same thing with, course it's going back Joan's generation er see younger generation altogether than mine but our, our lives were well we'll say well my father was in the Secret Service, in the government, Scotland Yard but erm +so we was known, no no, no dear, no it's, I've, tell by the sound of the throat, got a s bit of a sore throat +You're +Filled up ? +No +Have I? +Yeah, mm well I +You've lost an awful lot of weight +Yeah, yeah, look get the fingers round there . +I couldn't do these up some time ago but erm I have, I've lost weight, but erm +Mm feel good. +So erm the only thing this shaking comes on but er years ago I mean we daren't go against our parents. +Oh you wouldn't go, well I wouldn't say that you could my father would've half killed us +If he knew, yeah, yeah. +but it didn't do us any good. +Well w we didn't have to do, do anything that way because we were allowed our freedom up to a certain time and that was it. +Mm. +But there wasn't the temptations now you see +At six o'clock you were dead. +Then. +Yeah. +Well even m er my kiddies er not An er Joan so much but the others seven o'clock was the latest they ever went to bed. +I remember mummy putting us to bed at six. +Six o'clock on a Saturday night and +Yeah, mm, yeah. +Well we was the same a and er they didn't mind it. +I was laughing about with er what's, I'm gonna write er a note to my chi er letter to my children for, you know, before very long no good thinking about it, well you wouldn't think about it after when it's too late, but my kids have been a you know a great comfort the four from my first Joan, Joan has too, she's been a dear but we had the same problems when she was getting older. +Times I've, I've sat up at the window trying to wa watch her coming round two o'clock in the morning hoping that he's fallen asleep down in the armchair. +And then opening the door quietly for her to come in and +You do, you try to stand up for them, protect them +Oh! +Yeah yeah. +you know +But i is it right? +But then when he has +wo woken up and heard her come in and that he's had her standing in front of him and the old finger's been going, exactly what he's doing now, he's done it with his +Mm +with Joan. +And the finger's stood there and she's had to stand there shaking from head to foot +Well I know the night Lindsey was smoking and she had or something but smelt the smoke on her breath and he got the belt and he gave her a belt and I lay in bed Kay and I cried +Yeah it's, yeah +I couldn't there was nothing I could do. +Yeah. +And if I had a went in to comfort her I might as well of undone everything he did +Yeah that's right she, you, you've gotta er grit +But it didn't do any good, the next morning she was smoking in the bathroom. +Was she? +So it didn't help. +No. +She was grounded. +That hasn't helped. +She has talked, we've talked to her yesterday, was it yesterday? +Or the day before? +Yesterday I think well m maybe the day before Friday. +So she started to cry and all then and said she said she was sorry, and right enough she stuck to the time that we allow her to, she's come in last night dead on the button. +Did she? +Oh yeah, yeah. +That's give her the start and then you +I says Lindsey if you want us to trust you, you have got to tell the truth +Yeah, oh yes see +and let us know what you're doing. +Yeah. +You see even when they tell the truth, if they've been telling lies for a long time, even if they, when they tell the truth you don't believe them +Mhm +because of the lies they've told before +that's right. +so that you +Well she was staying overnight at some wee girl's house and I'd say well that's alright as long as you're as long as, you know, that know the wee girl's mother maybe, she's a daughter a wee bit older than Lindsey herself who had the , but no this mother see she was divorced and going with these men and let her daughter stay out to half eleven, and Lindsey was,n wasn't in her house till half eleven. +So I says now that's stopped +Yeah. +so that definitely has stopped, you'll not be staying with anybody overnight. +No. +You see +But it's hard Kay isn't it? +it was, that's the same with er +But +with, with my granddaughter, she, she did the same s she used to go and babysit at this girl's house and she fe felt, she was only fourteen, and she felt sorry for her and she'd go and babysit every night she'd go and babysit and er but she used to b sit up in the bedroom, she never ever went down the sitting room thinking that the child's mother was either down in the sitting room or just going out for a short while and coming back and then eventually they put erm a bed up in the child's bedroom for Denise to stay there over nights and Pearl didn't worry at all, well she knew, knew where, at least she knew where and er this girl was bringing men back down in the sitting room every night, three or four, sometimes ten men in a night during the night! +And Denise is there fourteen and a very attractive girl and that . +The, the that she was under, and Pearl did, Pearl was trusting her and, and knew, and so the Denise was saying the right thing, she was staying in the bedroom, never knew what was going on down there. +It's these people that lead to +I know. +They've got no thought only for their selfish own ways you see. +That's right. +Well I says to Lindsey, said if you ever want me out of that hospital Lindsey you'd better start and be good. +But I know she's gonna sh she's in tonight and she's gonna have to go out there. +I know she is, it's a stage she's going through. +You know? +Mhm. +But hopefully +Yeah +last too long. +Oh yeah. +I do +Andrea was up to see me one day. +What up at the hospital? +Mhm. +Oh did she, she, did she go? +She said she w you know, would like to go +She come up +up to see Eilleen and I said I'm sure it would be alright. +Mhm. +We were talking of the boys you know one time she used to go with Richard and +Yeah. +she says Eilleen do you remember the time she said I went with Richard? +I says c how could I ever forget it, I said it must have been near halloween, one halloween, for I remember her coming to the party and that's how her and Richard met. +Aha. +she was saying now is he still going with the girl that he was, that he's going wi he was going with and I says he's still . +That's where he's away this weekend to her place, and then he's going next weekend because there's some wedding do or something er so he's to go next weekend, he goes there, stays with her parents and then she'll come down the weekend after that and stay at our house. +She'll, she'll +That's er er c +sleep in Lindsey's room you see and then +Does she? +Lindsey sleeps in Richard's bed and Richard he sleeps on the settee. +Yeah. +So er +Well then er er +he's settled down. +it's going ni it's going nice, oh good. +Gr Joan +That's going good now. +er Andrea has even, I suppose it was one day last week she was happened to speak about ooh she said I was only thinking d the other day she said I was long the longest with Richie R Richie +She calls him +R R Ricky er Richie er longer than she'd been with any you know, boy that she got on with +Well Richard's so much,i it's what an awful lot of childishness in him +Yeah +He still plays with wee men, you know he, he will have this strip of board +Yeah. +and he would have all these wee men and like different huts, and this is all set out and he's a brilliant drawer, I've never seen him draw +Is he? +oh really brilliant drawer +Really. +I was cleaning out the room there the other day and he must be training, he must be weightlifting or something up in the bedroom but he's a health health book, a big thick health book and there's bodies, you know, the human body +Aha. +and their muscles would be +Yeah +where the muscles are +Aha. +and honest to goodness Kay they're brilliant, where he has, where he has just +Aha +copied them out of the book. +Well what's he going in for? +Does he want to go in for ta +He's he's might be getting a job, I don't know what he want he doesn't really know what he wants to do yet +Oh. +but he might be getting a job felting roofs, putting roofs and and +Oh well that th that's a pity if he's got a a a thing for drawing, he wants to go in for +draughtsmanship or something like that, people +I says Richard would you not even go on to the tech and, or somewhere that you could get better on your drawing and he, he +Develop on that. +does really brilliant figures of people you know. +Yeah. +Er er he tried one time, he'd got his daddy's photograph and he was actually trying to draw his father from the photograph +Mhm. +Mhm. +and there was a great resemblance. +But these men, you know these, these men with the armour and all on them? +Oh yes, soldiers +Oh he's brilliant, he has them stuck on the side of his wardrobe door on big pages this size, you know, maybe this height, and it's detailed right through the whole thing. +Me and Andy +You, you want +was looking at them the other day and they're really brilliant. +You want to let John see them cos he's a marvellous artist. +Mhm. +You want to see the oil paintings he's done. +I must bring them, I must bring a couple +Yeah bring them over and let John +see them +Mhm. +perhaps he'll talk him into +It's these things that have gone for but Richard is very much a child +Yeah well yes but, perhaps it's a good thing. +He's no dr he doesn't drink and he doesn't smoke. +He sits up the stairs and either plays the computer or draws these men or plays with these wee men all over the place, so +Yeah. +Well I mean all men go in for these model things. +all models he must have +Yeah +a hundred of them. +But they're all, they must be all of different armies you know? +Yeah. +That's right. +Oh well they, they, they do th , men do those things until they're +Andrew sit there and play with them. +aged seventy and eighty, yeah well, that's not, that's not childish,me +men, course men rea never really grow up do they? +Not really. +I know but that's alright +But they don't, they don't at all +But er +I remember Andy picking toys for Ryan that he would like to play with himself +Yeah. +when Ryan was younger. +Well I think every man's, every man's the same, especially fathers +And I the same for, when Lindsey was a wee girl and I mean a wee girl like, I'd pick wee things for her I'd of loved my mummy to buy me. +Yeah, mm yeah. +It's in, it's in +all of us. +Oh it's pouring with rain. +Is it? +Mm. +Just coming, it's started to come down. +Yeah I think we're all the same though, we all sort of dwell back on our +There's a child in us somewhere. +Yes, mhm. +There's a bit of the child in us somewhere +Yeah. +Yeah. +But my, my brothers with er, with models and things like that, one of them's still got er the lead er soldiers on horseback and +That's what these are. +They're l lead men you know and he has er painted this and it must be something to do with these men but these drawings now, I've never seen drawings like them +Yeah. +like them and I must say, tell him you wanna see them because me and him don't talk very much because +No. +he's either up the stairs well he came down one night right enough he was talking to his girl on the phone, she phones him through the week and er he was a bit depressed because he he hadn't the money, he's, he's on the and he hasn't really the money to give in for housekeeping plus try and get driving lessons and his daddy won't let him +No see +housekeeping money for he wants him to learn the, the value of money +Yeah. +Well that's, yeah. +Well I says Andy cut it down a bit like, even if you could cut, cut it down a bit for and I says he can't afford to give big housekeeping money and plus try and get a bus away to Kilkeel and take out, or take the wee girl out, what do you call her, Sonia. +So his daddy cut it down to twelve pound a fortnight, that's six pound a week +Mhm. +and his daddy says I'm not going any lower than that Richard. +So right enough Richard was pleased for Richard thought it was gonna be ten pound a week +Aha. +you know? +So he's away to Kilkeel and I says getting engaged and he says to me do you want rid of me or something? +You know I really hurt him. +But I was only kidding him going +Yeah. +you know but er he took it bad, he, he says do you not +Yeah it was where J +do you not want me in the house. +where John was born, Kilkeel. +Is that right? +Mm. +Well that's where +He was b he was born up in the mountains +up in the mountains of Mourne. +the wee girl . +Sure if the weekend sure she would, she, she loves just coming down and would wash the dishes and dry them but Richard won't let her do it. +Yeah. +He'll say no you're down here to visit. +I'm, I, I noticed er Ricky, they were coming across I was er washing the erm venetian blinds up in the er er bedrooms and he came out with his young lady and er they came down ac across the grass and he was in front, and he jumped over the fence at the bottom, and she this little, and she was ha was having to climb and she was stuck th like that, and he looked back and thought she, he, she was with him and when he s and er he went back, but he went back, and I thought to myself oh like a gentleman, and lifted her over. +Yeah he did and I thought to myself oh well you're, you're growing up Ricky, I thought to myself. +I had to smile +Oh dear +because of the way he did it, you know? +And it was great +Andrew says +and then they went off and talking away to each other, it was, it was lovely. +mm +Yeah. +And of course +But there's still an awful lot of the child in him. +You know? +Yeah. +Yeah well I think they +And he sent me a lovely Mother's Day card +I think they all are, you know. +a lovely Mother's Day card +Mhm. +And he's a, he's something framed up in the room there, I haven't it's a certificate for something they've got from school, and he's that framed and up in his room. +But his drawings are really good, you know well when I say drawings er drawings are, these are army, armed men you know +Yes. +real armed men +Mhm. +and he may be and careless and just throws his clothes down everywhere but then his mind's in the right place. +Oh well you know peo people that throw their clothes around and untidy, they turn out the best of people. +Yeah. +N you're not gonna speak, no, but can I ask you something? +Eh? +He's gone up there +May I ask you something John? +What? +Will you make a cup of coffee ? +You, you have put on the weight . +You're like myself +That's the s that's the s +I'm trying to copy you. +that's the sweets, that's the sweets he eats +That's what I'm saying, you're like myself. +that's the sw +I've, I've put on an awful lot of weight. +that's the sw tha that's the sweets he eats er +Are you a sweetie lover? +oh God, do you know +Are you a sweetie eater? +you know Joan er Andrea, wasn't it? +Andrea bought him, you know the big ja he's g always got a pocket full any time at all ooh that jar Andrea bought him that Christmas full of toffees +Oh gracious. +and Joan came over she came over about a week or so after, not, not much more than a week, and she sat there and she said oh well yeah I'll have one of your, he asked if we'd like a sweet, she said yeah I'll have one dad. +And he gets the jar cor she said that's disgusting dad she said and he had course he blames all of us for having some but we hadn't touched them. +There you are you see. +Of course every now and again the hand goes down the side a hand goes down and up comes the sweets and it's continuous. +Ooh what's happened to this? +Sugar Eilleen? +John, if it's a mug two if it's a mug two please. +These all your Mother's Day cards ? +Yeah. +I've a lovely one from Richard. +Ryan he says it's foolish, cards, he says mum when you just, you just put them somewhere and forget where you put them, so he says I've decided to buy you oh this looks a lovely one +That's, that's from er I was looking for something else where did I wonder what I've done with those. +Mhm. +Who's that from Joan? +Jo Joan when she came over she gave me a hug and she said I mean every word of that mum. +She, she had it specially +Lovely innit? +I, what I'm looking for is oh +You're not looking for John's sweets are you? +No. +Oh he +I said still looking for your sweets is she. +No. +There's another lovely one. +From Andrea +Mhm. +Andrea and John yeah. +Well I'm blowed, I wonder where they are. +You're not old nan you've just lived a long time +they're beautiful. +Lovely one, yeah Well I think that's that's from Joan, birthday one, see my birthday's just before Christmas. +Ah sh wonder where she gets her cards from it's not Eastlands is it? +No. +Cos they're beautiful +In Belfast I think somewhere. +looking for? +Yeah yeah. +good laugh +Yeah. +That's what I said to that Ann, be able to get something on that somebody says that they haven't said it and be able to play it back to them. +Proof Johnny have you erm moved +I haven't touched nothing in those drawers. +Rose's photographs? +I've touched nothing in those drawers. +Oh I can't find them. +That's lovely. +What's the joke? +It's just the way you signed it +Yeah +Kate what are you looking for? +Well I'm looking for a +I'm not attaching it to you this time at all +Is it still running? +Ah we've only a wee bit to do. +How many's this, number one? +That's only number one, one +Oh goodness. +side, +Oh is it ? +It's a good job I come over isn't it? +yeah cos that's, there's not gonna be much more. +You can see how things are with conversation And yesterday I started it off all er lovely, good morning John and he, and he John, John answered +And that's the last he's spoke since . +We were starting to say something else +Useless kid. +That's my daughter's +Oh isn't that lovely? +Look at, for goodness sake. +Look at the way he's, look he's got a teddy bear +Honest to heaven +and he sits lifts it, gets up on the settee and cuddles that until he goes to sleep. +Isn't that a big ! +That's, that's er +Now you can sort yourselves out. +Oh +Is this home baked John? +Yeah he's he's +Is this home baked? +He, he, he's +We'll get you on it yet if Kate hasn't already wrecked it. +In, in the newspaper write up of us arriving in New Zealand +This here? +Yeah yeah yeah but erm, oh I don't know I must have, must find those I don't think Joan's taken them. +Oh I know where they are +leave it on there +Yeah all the Irish people were in that hall and welcomed us because we were from Ireland, New Zealand, over in New Zealand +I'm not putting on here in case you fold yourself down. +No, okay then . +Yeah, send, they sended me photographs of their dogs and their +John I bet you have never been so quiet. +Well it's a good way to shut him up isn't it? +Sign language, you'll have to get used to sign language Kate or Kate +Eh? +I keep calling you Kate. +Hang on +I think they're here John. +No, whoops sorry love. +You're alright. +They're not here. +They'll say I wonder what she's trying to find in there with all that rattling. +Well that was better than mine because all you heard was the the clatter of the washing machine and the clinking of the tumble dryer. +Ah +Have you found them? +Yeah. +Why, is it hard? +No if you, if you lacquer it it puts a bit of a shine on +Yeah? +plus it protects it, stops it from getting chipped. +cut it in cardboard to the shape of that is pretty near +For here? +Yeah. +How long did it take you to do that? +Well, when did I start it? +Was it yesterday morning? +Yeah, when you put the first coat on it. +Saturday. +I gave it a coat yesterday morning and then it hardened up and I rubbed it down with a bit of fine wire wool today +Yeah. +and gave it a couple of coats this morning +What? +What? +Go on, it's only con ordinary conversation, there's no names going down. +what we're saying. +What are you doing that for ? +There in her pocket. +Oh aye but what are you doing it for? +Who gave you that ? +A resear er research people. +Er see it's only just ordinary conversation of y +nob nobody knows who, who, who says these things at all. +So +What is this about?recording. +Well they're going to, it's a new +Well er +kind of dictionary, see if there was one word, say constipation +Ooh +No come in, come in hey. +No, switch that off. +Oh come on, it's alright. +S oh no no no. +What's the difference? +Nobody knows who you are or anything else. +Aye it's just a laugh, come on and say some silly words will we? +No. +You use er +No, no no +I know +that particular word one way I use it one way mum uses it one way and er +uses it one way see they're gonna make up a dictionary of how many different expr er interpretations of a word +Meanings, yeah +Well who's asked you to do this? +Oh research people that came to the door +And gave you that there? +Pic oh I've got it for a week and if I get successful in doing so many tapes then I get twenty pound, twenty five pound v voucher to spend +to spend in +I know. +Yeah. +Well that's up to them innit? +Alright? +I don't know if I've got it on. +I probably haven't. +I hope you haven't. +What do you mean you hope you haven't? +What's the difference, nobody knows who you are or +Aye +Oh yes it's going. +Aha. +And he said +I think, I think the black is erm +Eight quid it costs for a new visor. +Right. +Does all visors h sta er fit standard helmets? +Mm no,sometimes they're different. +Are they? +Grants +do they sell black visors cos they +No Grants Grants +Where's that? +Right. +Oh aye, aye. +I'll take that in and see if I can get one fitted. +It'll look cool won't it? +Aye. +My auntie sent that over from England +Aye. +No +makes no difference if erm th there were one or two. +So what have you to do with this? +What's that? +There, that's a grip. +Grip. +Oh I see +Oh +the inside of the hole is bigger than one that I originally had, with the grip and the bar. +That one's bigger that one's bigger. +It's the same outside but +Yeah +this little hole in the middle, that one's bigger because that's er the right hand one to go over the grip, over the throttle, +That one fit onto the bar. +Did you do that? +The hole in the side of my jeans is getting bigger so it is, have to sew it up. +getting bigger too. +Ah ha ha ha ha ha So when are you, when are you gonna put the undercoat on that like? +Oh aye. +Do you want me to do it now? +Pardon? +Do you want me to do it? +Oh well you do it, I'll only muck it up. +If you want to do it you can do it. +No you can do it so it can be done good. +No I couldn't do that there, it takes a genius to do that. +Put the put your brush where your mouth is. +be quite awkward. +Have you got a day off too? +Eh? +Have you got a day off as well? +And he phoned, and he phoned the pub this afternoon and he says I'm not coming in to work tonight. +What are you gonna do? +I'm gonna eat my dinner. +You should have seen what I ate last night! +Oh God! +Oh aye. +There was me and Taff and Norma and Fred and Colin and Maud went to +Go on. +the Lychee House in Ba the Lychee House in Banbridge +That's it, you're alright. +Right ? +Yeah it's alright, nobody knows who says these things. +And +Yeah. +and er Taff had, what was it? +What did you have? +and shredded beef. +shredded beef and +That's what, that's what's happened +And he had a banana split for pudding and he had soup for starters, right? +And then I had, what did I have? +I had deep fried duck with orange sauce and fried lice and I had +Fried lice? +Fried lice. +Fried rice +Fried lice and I had chicken and sweetcorn soup for starters and who was it? +Colin and Maud had the same as me +Yeah. +Norma had the same as Taff, what did Fred have? +He had huge big prawns +He had king prawn chow mein. +Ch king prawn chow mein with the noodles and stuff and he had whip marks all over him but anyway I ate all that and I didn't have a sweet,, didn't have a sweet and I we went out for a while and on the way home +Eh? +Yeah. +On the way home me and Maud got chicken Maud and I got chicken burgers right? +With the whole works in it. +Norma got a huge big chip with chicken dip and then we brought Fred back something to eat as well, we were starving, and I got home last night and I was gonna make myself a sandwich but mummy-in-law was in bed so I says och I'll just go to bed myself. +I was starving yesterday! +It must go right down to your boots. +I think it does somehow. +Sticks round my arse though +Well where's +I'm switching it off. +Good. +Er that and those are what I got that's what I got with those and they're with the parcels di in that envelope so That was to send the catalogue back er the other one +Er doing a lot of sorting. +Yeah. +That's the travel agency isn't it? +Pardon? +That's the travel agency things, I'll put them on there to sort out to throw away. +Can you, can you think where that came from, that book? +Pardon? +Do you know where that came from that book? +Was it in the post? +It probably came in the post but I don't know where from. +Who from. +John Moores, they've cut prices. +Oh. +gonna be er John Moores have come from and they've cut prices. +Oh. +Right. +Wonder if they th say that that's the er +Said what? +the you know they've, I'm supposed to have received the summer, spring and summer catalogue from them I haven't, I wonder if that's supposed to be it. +Mm. +That's Costcutters. +Oh. +These er return labels weren't in that when you lent it to John, to take over there? +No I erm no I hadn't got any labels in it then. +Excuse me +Yeah I will give him a ring +to save him going out +this afternoon . +I'm +Eh? +gonna go through that lot, you know, and throw out all what's not necessary in that erm magazine rack. +and there's one in there This is January savers and there's another catalogue. +Mm? +Another catalogue return book there. +Yeah. +I don't know how long that they were supposed to last for. +Pardon? +I don't know how long that Telegraph was supposed to last for. +Only those come through the door Telegraph thing they come through the door +Yeah +So what's ? +Well we've had it a long time don't know how long it lasts. +I don't know, you can look at the old Telegraph and see if it's , the Telegraph I got on Thursday night or Friday night +Oh. +and see if there's anything in there. +Mhm. +Mm? +I've got one of those, there +Kay's return book. +Oh, no +Yeah that's Kay's +Yeah +I'm gonna throw all that out. +but you should have got the same thing from them. +Yeah, oh all I got was that book with a statement, statement book. +You got a statement book? +A statement book, yes, +Yes you've got a statement book +Yeah. +but you haven't got a return book. +No I know, I'm just saying that all they sent was a, a statement book. +Yeah that's what I'm saying also. +I'll phone them up. +Er well I don't know actually. +That's statement. +Well this is a statement that, that you get er what sales there are. +Did you hear the er birds this morning? +Birds? +Yeah. +No. +Oh they were kicking up an awful fuss and I thought to myself now a cat's tearing one to pieces, that's the way it, what it sounded like, or two and they were, I couldn't see quite out of the window but they were making a fuss on the wall by Diane's +Yeah. +and I thought to myself that blooming cat's after them and er it kept on for a long time and then, so I opened the window and looked out a big black cat was here where's the big black cat coming from? +Dunno I haven't seen +Yeah a big, big black one well it looked black in it was in the early hours of this morning, you know, when the birds start flying about. +Yeah well there was a big er dark grey one comes from over there. +Well it might be dark grey, could be +Mm. +but it looked black from up there, so I er opened the window and rattled the venetian blind and I thought you'd've heard that erm and it shot out there, whether it went underneath the gate, can they get through under the gate? +No they go over the top. +Oh I didn't see it +up onto the little pillar there and +Oh, I didn't see him go up at all. +The only part I could +You may not have seen +Aha. +Aha. +So he, but he shot as soon as that window opened. +Yeah. +They know they're doing wrong you know. +Don't they? +Yeah. +Well it was, it might, could've been dark grey +Yeah +but i +No I'm a nuisance. +I'm a nuisance. +I er say to myself why do I take some of these jobs. +These are quite specialist jobs, you know? +Mhm. +And why do I take them on. +But you know, it's more than I know. +Now, with the greatest of pleasure okay, with the greatest of pleasure +Ah well, it's only those few I mean I +Well I'm giving it to you. +I'm giving it to you. +I rang +I'm false +my boss. +false pretences, no. +No, oh no no. +I couldn't see yous false pretences, okay? +Well I, it is really cos I d +Oh no, no. +No +I wasn't able to do too much +Well I think +I think your age they wanted an over sixty. +And I think an over sixty no matter who they are, they would still just have a small return. +Yeah +Because you don't talk that much. +I'm thinking +No. +of my own father who lives alone. +Aha. +You know? +Only for us going in and out you know? +In and out yes. +And of course +They wanted certain age groups. +Mhm. +And they wanted a pl a sixty plus. +So with the greatest of pleasure. +That looks very +With the greatest of pleasure. +That looks +Thank you very much. +Thank you very much indeed. +That looks very nice. +Does look nice? +Yes . +Er my one of my respondents +What's the picture of? +Aha. +Oh I don't know. +Er I'm more in more interested in countryside. +I we right. +What was I going to say? +One of the respondents turned it over and read it and said oh well you could put that in the wine shop. +You could spend it in the wine shop. +Oh dear. +Oh no. +Did you fill me that in? +Did you fill me that booklet? +Yes. +Good for you. +Yeah. +Oh I would think so. +Yes. +Can I ask these few? +Now you had, you've used three tapes. +I'm gonna put three, right? +That's right. +Mhm. +Right. +Now firstly, thinking about is it going? +I shall hear the pip going off. +Right. +Yes it's going. +Er is that where you talk +And +into erm where where is the? +There it is. +Ah yes, right. +Er okay, firstly thinking about the experience of recording your conversat conversation using the personal stereo and filling in the booklet, how did you find th this in general? +How did you find it? +Oh, alright. +Anything else? +Erm no. +Interesting. +Right. +Wh what makes +you say that? +Interesting. +Erm +Different I take it. +Right, not every +Well yeah Yes I I always liked good conversation. +Yes. +Right. +And of course don't get a lot of it, but it was it was +Right. +Well right. +I would +So +wish the boss would of come in even when I'm here. +You know? +Yeah. +I'm not a hard woman to know. +Oh I've got him on the tape +Aha. +Cos he's a lovely voice. +He answered the phone to me. +Yeah, yeah. +He should have come in. +He was on the tape. +Yes. +Good, good. +He he did a lot. +But it takes time. +You have to be very erm +Yes. +My husband's like that, okay? +My husband, I would be very outgoing +diplomatic. +Yes. +Where George is very +He was +placid and very cool and +Yeah. +don't bother yourself Anne you know +Yeah +where I would headlong into the thing . +He he's on the second one quite a bit. +Good, good. +That's lovely. +Yeah. +Well that's wonderful. +He's on the one that +I was annoyed when came back the last time and I thought oh my goodness I hope I haven't given that woman any annoyance. +Oh no. +No +No right. +No, oh right. +not a bit. +I annoy him. +But he he don't like things put on to him so quickly. +Right. +He he +A stranger coming in to the house that you've never seen before +he don't grasp things course he +is a very +Yeah. +very difficult one isn't it? +Yeah, yeah. +Well you know he's used to you know, dealing with people. +My job is yes. +My job is very unusual in some circumstances. +Yeah, yeah. +It must be, yeah. +I'm doing +Cos you've got to be always +Right. +Do you're dealing with everything. +All kinds. +Yes. +But general public in Northern Ireland are very nice. +You know? +Yes. +They're responsive to you +Yes. +in their answering. +I'm doing a very high-falluting one for Professor Peter on his sexual attitude. +Sexual +Oh. +I've been ask all their sexual attitudes +Have you? +you know? +And it's nice you know, and I was brought up so narrow minded. +You know a presbyterian background . +Yes, yes. +Mother never talked about sex . +Well you daren't dare you? +But erm d'you know what I was going to do this morning? +If I'd +Right? +have had the whole day. +Yes. +I wouldn't have been back in time. +Right. +But the opera house opens +Yes. +tonight +Right. +Are you going? +With no. +No. +No no you're not. +with the er it's the first aft since the bombing. +Right. +And the Shakespeare from +Oh on the radio is this? +Shakespeare company from +Yes. +England is performing +Right. +Performing +tonight. +Yes. +The first, it will be the first opening. +Yes. +Well my school days +Right. +my headmistress was the president of the Shakes Shakespeare league. +Right, right. +And she'd got, we was always very interested I played Puck in Midsummer's Night's Dream at school and all that kind of thing. +Right, yes. +And I was go might have gone to to Belfast today to meet John's sister. +Yeah. +And I was gonna go into the +Yes. +opera house and ask them +Why don't you? +would they mind +Yes? +answering a few questions for me. +Yes. +And I would have had me tape on. +Right. +Right. +Yes. +And I don't s and there would have been people from +Yes. +all different areas. +Right. +Stratford upon Avon and different areas. +I suppose now in a way, a strange woman like me coming in. +See I never find myself strange. +I'm constantly surveying for everybody +Yeah. +that you could imagine. +And +Mhm. +I don't see myself, but I'm sure I strange man might wonder what is this woman? +And then I rang back again you see +What?oh. +and that reassured you, you know? +You know? +That yeah. +Yeah. +Aha yeah . +Aha Aha +Oh he he, he wouldn't +Aha. +er once he'd got, he don't like things pu put +Yes. +to him very quickly. +He's slow on accepting things. +Yes. +But when he does he's the best. +I'm a bit slow on accepting er er myself really. +Yes. +Yeah, he's he's the best. +Especially if it in involved him. +Yeah. +If it involved him. +Yes. +Yeah. +Yeah. +Didn't care what I did. +Right. +Yes. +But I'm sure +He knows that would have been alright you know? +to for it to be genuine +But he's he's great otherwise. +to be genuine, I'm sure that was hard to know whether I was genuine or not. +Oh I don't think, no, no that was his att +I hope I didn't ru +that was his att that would have been his attitude +Right. +Yeah. +with anything at all. +Even see we've got the grandson over for the +Yeah. +start of the holidays. +Right. +That's why I keep this on because there are +Yeah. +umpteen children he brings in and they have +Right. +paints and goodness knows what. +Right. +Well that's +And they started ruining +Yes, aha +the table, but er tut +there was only a few things that we would +Okay. +It's for +Yeah. +working and living with. +That's right. +I always think I should have wrote written a book +Oh your +about my kitchen table. +I need my children to be writing and +Well write a book about a table. +eating. +Oh yes I I'm, yes aha. +I'm very +keen on writing a book. +So am I. +Yes aha. +Under, I have a book under the bed . +That I don't let on. +And I'm a very bad housekeeper. +Oh good for you. +I when I see him when I see, George does a lot of housekeeping when I see him clearing the bed I say oh goodness look book. +Yeah. +I don't want anyone to see it. +In my older day, okay, I'll write a book. +Yeah. +Very much so, yeah. +Well I always have, and my mum's always said to me why ever don't you sit down +Yes. +and write books because during the raids +Yes. +in the war +Yes. +erm we used to, all the little kiddies used to come to ours. +Right. +We had a big shelter +Yes. +in the garden. +Yes. +This is from somewhere +Under, underground +in England er okay? +Mm. +Yes, aha. +Well we had them here you know? +Y yes. +Yes. +And er all the kids would come +Yes. +as long as they were coming to me +Yes. +Right. +they would, they would come in. +Didn't matter where their parents went, they'd be in. +Right. +You had the motherly touch. +And I'd let them t take turns in choosing +Yes. +Yes. +whatever. +Yes. +This was at like bed time. +Yes. +Some like you said would, that's what reminded me, would choose something like a chair, or +Right . +Yes. +To write about +a slipper. +okay? +Yes. +Or or an animal. +Right. +And whatever each one chose I would go off and tell them the loveliest sort of +Stories. +bed time st I could make up +D'you know that er +a stories +Yes. +of it. +D'you know that in Northern Ireland we have people who, who, who lived up history like that. +You know? +Mhm. +Where my father was concer would be concerned, he he was in farming and, when the war come on, he brought the evacuees out of Belfast. +You know? +Mm. +And that's a wee part of history that very few would know about. +That's right. +And like yourself. +Yes. +You know? +Oh yes, you could tell them +Let me ask right. +A few more +Yeah, yeah. +of these. +Er right. +So you always like conversation and in general you would like to speak. +Isn't that right? +Mhm. +Generally erm I would like to speak. +I'll just take this er rough and then I can edit it. +Right. +Now this one here was thinking about the conversation you didn't record. +Well, well I'll just say er at the beginning er it just didn't erm +Oh +someone I was talking to er didn't want me to record them. +At the beginning I'll say that. +You know? +Just er er why we had only three, right? +Mhm. +Did anyone you spoke to during the time that you recorded objected? +No. +No Eileen. +No +Sure there wasn't? +No. +No. +Oh I will call you Eileen! +Yeah +Now. +I need to know these things here just for erm wait and I'll read it. +There are a number of things that might aff affect the way in which you speak and how we use our language in everyday conversation. +Such as where we live er where we went to school, what hobbies and interests we have and so on. +So I would like to move on to ask a few questions about er where you lived in the past. +Firstly, where were you born? +London. +London. +T the city of London? +Mhm. +Any particular er part? +Er +No? +Fulham. +Right. +Thought Fulham or Putney. +Fulham. +Or or Putney. +And in which town er and country er did you er go to school? +Primary school in Fulham? +Er there weren't primary school then. +There was just the infants and then you passed a scholarship and went to +Right. +So you would have went still right. +They weren't grammar schools. +They were called c central schools +Right. +but er equivalent to a grammar school. +So in your primary school days you would have went to er still Fulham? +No. +No we'd moved, moved by then. +Where did you move to? +Er Clapham Junction. +C L A? +C L A P H A M +Aye. +Junction. +Where where they've been bombing it +I surveyed in Clapham Junction. +I did. +Mm? +Oh. +I surveyed er last year. +Did you? +I was over in Clapham. +Yeah, aha. +Doing +Oh. +I went there on a memory trip but there's nowhere +Right. +standing that +Well it's very nice. +And er er er +that, that I knew of, you know? +Clapham Common. +Is that right? +Clapham Common? +Yeah. +Clapham Common. +That's where er Fer Fergie used to live. +Oh +She had her flat there. +What about your secondary school? +Did you go still there? +Not well it was in, in Bat in Battersea. +Yes, near there. +Battersea? +Spell that? +Er Battersea. +Spell it. +B A double T E R S E A. +E A. +And is that in Clapham Junction? +No no. +No. +That well a part +Where's that? +part of Clap Well it was in erm near just outside Battersea Park. +Ah. +Right. +Outside +And it was called the +Right? +Oh for goodness sake now +Is Battersea +It was a kind of c a college. +Is Battersea er a town as we would know Lurgan? +Well it's a borough. +Yes. +Yes. +That's right. +And er ha has it a county? +County something? +Essex? +Essex. +Essex. +And would er er Clapham Junction be in Essex? +Mhm. +Right. +Is that a county? +Yeah. +Yeah. +Right. +I don't know my geography. +Yeah. +How long did you live there, at Battersea? +How long where you there? +Oh +How many years? +Until you were maybe in your teens? +was married. +Ah. +Er about twenty? +Yeah. +Right . +That's how long you lived there? +About twenty. +Have you ever lived in any other place three years or more since leaving school? +I mean, in a different town. +Not just a different address. +So after +Yes. +Yes. +Where? +Mhm. +Right. +Okay. +Where would you have lived? +Er +That would have been your early marriage, right? +Now yeah. +When you got married where did you live? +Well that would have been in erm oh tut +Yeah. +Near Saint Bartholomew's Hospital. +Where? +Covent Garden . +I should know I don't know if that's in +Covent Garden? +Yeah. +Near Covent Garden. +Anywhere else? +Where's Covent Garden? +Is it +London London. +London. +Is it county like +Ce central London. +Central London. +That is London, yeah. +Central London, right. +Covent Garden. +I hope d'you know +D'you know your Northern Ireland geography? +Cos I don't know my English geography. +Oh I know, know quite a bit of it. +Yeah. +Right. +Er anywhere else? +No? +Oh. +Well from there? +Yeah. +Erm that's where I first got married. +Right. +Mustn't speak about businesses? +N oh it doesn't matter. +Oh it doesn't matter. +Oh +No. +Oh we was +It's just the words they're after you see. +Ah. +Just words. +We were licensed victuallers then. +Right. +And were would you have been? +Where, where would that have been? +In erm Islington. +Oh, right. +The famous Angel Islington. +It's almost the first pub I ever had. +Right. +And anywhere else? +Anywhere else? +Oh, what from then? +Yes. +Onwards? +Yes. +Er from Islington? +Islington is still London? +Yes. +Yes. +But not central London? +Well near enough, yes. +Is it? +Is it? +Right. +Right. +More towards the east end end but +Right. +Erm oh where did we go from there? +Kings Cross. +Right. +Er that's all part of of +London. +outer London they call it don't they? +Right. +Greater London they call it now. +Ah, Greater London. +Greater London. +From Kings Cross +Not not Central London okay? +No. +No. +No. +Greater London. +Greater London. +Right. +Erm +Anywhere besides London? +Yeah, I'm just trying to think cos I I can miss two, I was just gonna say, miss two things from +It doesn't matter yes, aha. +there. +Right. +But that, that's fine. +Yes, Dagenham. +Essex. +Spell that. +D A G E N +Oh Dagenham? +Mhm. +Right. +D A G +E N H A M. +Dagenham. +That's London. +No, that's Essex. +Oh that's Essex. +That's in the country. +Right. +And where from there? +Where from England then? +Was this your first hop across? +No. +Erm er Dagenham to Lyme Regis, Dorset. +Dorset. +Right. +Where Jane Austen wrote all her novels. +That's right. +That's right. +Erm Lyme Regis, Dorset and from there to er near Kidderminster, wait a minute. +Stourport on Severn. +Stourport? +S T A +S T O U R +O U R +Stourport +Yeah? +I don't speak so good cos I've got some teeth out and I've got to have +Right. +Is it the teeth that I +part dentures in. +left? +No. +No. +No but er +I think you're doing very well. +I I can't get used to the new dentures +Can't get your can't get your tongue round these . +No. +It's a lot of words. +Right. +So different. +I notice it speaking into this. +Reading. +Out loud. +You don't notice it when you're reading to yourself. +Right. +Right. +Right. +Right. +What about from when was your hop across? +From Stour Stourport. +Nineteen fo oh now can't think. +Er from Stourport to Armagh. +Ah. +To Armagh. +Armagh. +Nineteen sixty eight. +And from Armagh to Craigavon? +Yes. +Right. +That's alright. +I'll +And now we're here. +We were put +I'll put +we were put here temporary because we had near enough all our valuables and furniture stolen in Armagh. +They had five, five robbers +Actually, Armagh City Armagh City? +Yes, the city. +Right right right. +Ah I'm in Armagh tomorrow. +Are you? +Yes. +Aha. +I'm doing a Euro-barometer. +A Euro-barometer's a lovely survey. +It's taking your it's taking everyone's erm view sim simultaneously, right? +Mhm. +In Europe, right? +And what you tell me and, again when your survey you'll take all age groups you see? +And that goes all into a central bank and they'll find out what the Northern Ireland person is equivalent to the the French and the Spanish +yeah. +Yeah. +and that's lovely. +Aha. +Nice, that's nice. +But +Oh. +I never did one of these, right ? +Let's see how this goes. +Right. +I'd like to now talk about ah your leisure time. +Do you watch television? +You surely do. +Well yes. +How long would you watch, okay? +In the day. +Per day. +Would you watch it? +Well well how long well I I choose which programmes I like +Right. +Oh yes that's right. +on it. +I like the nature things and +Right. +Would you watch it for three hours? +Er er . +Yes. +Aha. +Right. +I suppose so. +Yes. +Yes. +What what station, what channel would you watch most often? +Erm +Would it be our own? +I T V? +The well yes. +Yes. +Right. +I prefer that one. +Do you listen to the radio? +I'm sure you do. +Er, sometimes but mo +Right. +Right. +mostly I have the erm tut my sp special tapes records +Right. +on of +Right. +Well well you would listen to the radio +piano tape things. +Right. +W how, how how, what station would you listen to? +Well n not, not a lot of radio now. +No. +No. +No. +No. +D'you read a newspaper? +Yes. +What would you have read? +I mean at least four issues a a er a week. +So what would your popular paper be? +Well it's not +Would it be the local? +Yeah, well the er national paper. +Which one? +And a +Which one? +The Sun. +The Sun. +But it wouldn't be the po most popular it's because of +Right. +because they advertise bingo in them +Hope you're not re reading page three my girl . +What about er would you, would you buy the local? +Oh I expect John reads page page three. +So does me +Well, he wouldn't be natural if he didn't. +Course he wouldn't. +Goodness gracious. +You don't want to make the man a fuddy- duddy do you? +In in fact I open it out sometimes +Yeah. +and leave it there for him +Right. +in case he's missed it. +If he, if he never does anything worse than that me girl he'll go alright . +No he he's alright. +There's no complaints there. +You're +You think I'm awful. +No no no. +W would you read the local paper? +We have the Belfast Telegraph. +Right. +Ah the Belfast +Oh no +I was thinking of the +No wait a minute. +Right. +The the erm Portadown News isn't it? +Yes. +Right. +Yes aha. +I was thinking more of that +Or the Lurgan Mail. +The Lurgan Mail I was thinking of. +Yes. +That's right. +What about a Sunday paper, okay? +Would you read a Sunday? +Well that's that's the News of the World +News of the World. +That's a very popular paper you know, the News of the World. +Aha. +Yeah but it's a lot of lot of trash. +Aha I know. +I I I I check me po check me pools and that's all. +I'm never sure what to When in Rome do as the Romans do okay for goodness sakes. +What about any other? +Would you read any other? +No. +No, right. +No. +Sometimes we read second hand papers. +What about magazines? +Would you read a magazine? +No, I don't get m magazines. +Any, no no no radio times, readers sports, women's magazines? +Anything like that, no? +No. +D'you ever read er books? +Well no, not well not for +Not erm +years I haven't. +Right. +Not not a book right. +Years ago. +Right. +So it would have been you never read now. +I, I'll skip there. +No. +Right. +Erm my mam you know knows I talk too much okay you know. +I'll say to them and I'll be away fifteen minutes then. +What would you do, what would your leisure time you would listen to music? +Yes. +Anything else? +Er well no just sitting +What kind of music? +Oh er +Piano? +piano conc +Right. +concertos you know, things +Right, right. +Right +I've got all me records there. +Anything else, anything else? +Lovely lovely records. +What else do you like to do? +Er +Do you garden? +A bit here and there. +So, yeah. +Oh right. +Yes. +Oh yes, I like and I know quite a bit about gardening and the names of the +Right. +Do you +in our house . +I I like a garden. +Do you like a garden? +Right +I'm I'm a coun I'm a country girl. +Oh are you? +Right. +Mm. +Oh you're a country woman? +Mhm. +I would have thought when you were talking +Really. +telling me about London and that +. +Yeah. +you would have been maybe more a city woman. +You're a country woman? +Ooh I can't bear the cities. +Can you not? +Right. +So I +I I can't bear four walls. +Right. +You like to be out. +Out where there's green and everything. +D'you walk? +Do you walk? +Oh yes. +Walk, walk a lot. +Yes so walk. +Yes. +Yeah. +Walking. +When I can . +When I can now. +You like to conversate don't you? +Yes. +With Eileen and er +Yes. +Oh yeah. +Yes. +Yes you like to conversate . +Och I think it was too much on Eileen. +I think she's too many problems and one thing or another so I just, I just +I feel awful sorry for her. +Yes. +I just er petered out. +She tried. +She did very well you know? +I petered out. +I I I I I don't know what to do I have to ask my boss tomorrow again you know? +But I think she'll need to do more than one, you know? +Yes. +She had you would need to do more . +Well she's only just gone back tonight. +Aha. +Right. +She'd been home, I didn't know. +You know +I think she has problems and look, I'm only in for +But she +surveying and no, I don't want to know +Yeah. +Yeah. +your business, you know? +But she loves to co she was over here +Yes. +Oh yes. +and she had a laugh and she's great. +Yes. +Aha. +I go and visit her. +Right. +Right. +I I thought +And we have a chat there, you know? +that maybe it was too much and I just eased out. +You know +Yeah. +I would ease back. +If I thought it was too much I'd ease back. +Yeah. +Well it +And I think some you win, some you lose. +No she she she she enjoyed it. +At the beginning +Yes. +cos she did three tapes. +Both sides. +Yes but th w th w there was none she hadn't pressed a button at the back. +Oh no. +That's right. +But she chatted and chatted. +Right. +But you see since then +Yes. +nobody's been in. +Right. +The family been in and out +Right. +but she's still been on her own. +So I get on with her and try and help her. +Right. +That's right yeah. +But she's gone back tonight. +Yes. +And she's, that was tonight she said she's hoping to be home Thursday. +Right. +And they're gonna let her stay home for . +Right. +Right. +A friend in need. +I just came +Of course she's +at the wrong time I think. +There was a crisis. +She talked about the, one of the girls or something and +Yes. +I'm I'm waiting for the +Yes. +er little one to to see her because +I said to Andrew I I'll just back off. +He said it doesn't matter Anne, about the money and I just eased off and +Yeah. +didn't go back you know? +You know well, what can you do when she +No that's right. +She, with the little one she's er er told her +Yes. +she's gonna come over and see me. +I told her that while her mum's away if she's got problems just to +Right. +Yes. +come over to me and talk about them. +Right. +Because she's heading for trouble . +Yeah. +That's what I said +And Eileen gets somebody phones up Eileen +Yes. +and tells her about it. +Aha. +Of what time she comes in. +Yeah, aha. +And she's only eleven you see. +And it's an awful worry. +I I causing you problems then I'm only in for surveying +Yeah, yeah. +and nothing else and I didn't want to get involved. +No. +Yes or no, okay? +Don't be polite to me, right? +If we were carrying out, no well I always need to get right. +If we were carrying out a similar survey in the future, recording conversations, would you be willing to take part? +Yes or no? +Yes. +That's alright. +I cannot force. +I'm +Yeah. +taught not to force, you know? +That's why +Yeah. +That's okay. +when I'd seen there was a problem there, then I just +Yes. +No, it wa wasn't a good time. +No, not for her. +No. +I came in at yes. +I came out at at the wrong time. +Yeah. +It will take her some time +He was nice. +Yeah. +He was lovely and he was nice but it was just the, the wrong thing was judged, right. +But er and she'll be alright eventually. +And she's +Oh yes. +she's she's great. +Take time. +Oh yes. +Take time. +Take time. +She's a great person. +I've had a I've had a I've had a +She thinks so much of her family. +Yeah. +I've had maybe too much +you know? +Yeah. +I had a sister er we, we had a sister schizophrenic. +So +Mm +you have to live and you know. +Oh yes. +And I could have seen like +You've got to see people their side. +Yes, yes. +That's why I thought, when I come back the next time and you're upset I said oh no way do I want to upset a woman like that. +Oh +Oh no, no I wasn't upset. +I was just speaking frank about it. +Oh yes, I like to talk frank. +Oh no. +No, oh no. +It er it would take a lot +Did you have that book? +Yes. +Did you have that book at hand? +I've got them, I've got them over there. +Right. +Right. +Erm +Oh, watch yourself there +Oh crikey +You're switched on! +You're clicked on and I'm going in behind you. +Give me it and I'll give me it and I'll just +Right. +Right. +See, I've got it all here. +Right. +There's the booklets. +Right. +Can't see a thing er without my glasses. +Right. +Oh and you have it filled in. +That's +And I I er put, I I I'll put this, put this one in. +Put, put number three. +Those are the two, right. +That's the two. +Right. +D'you want them put into this box? +Yes they go all just go into the box. +They all just go back er er okay? +They all just go back. +well I kept them out just in case. +Right. +Right. +And then the three'll have to go, go down in between. +Right. +Then it's finished with. +And +Aha. +Keep +I'll take all this +No you keep all that paraphernalia but give me that. +Keep that. +Yes. +Okay. +Give me that bag. +And thank you very much okay er I think you did extremely well, you know? +Well I would have done, I would have done +I think. +Er you would have like it, what's your is +I would have done better if I'd have had more time. +Isn't that what life's about? +But you want to hear my family. +Pardon me? +none of my family, only my one daughter. +Right, right. +But if we'd been my family +Right. +You'd have plenty of conversation. +They all gosh they they they would have really they would have all had a go. +They would all all +This is life you know okay. +Life is never perfect. +No. +No. +And the older you get, and you should know that you just take the nice bits out of life. +I think the older you get you're the better of it. +Well that's why I try to tell the kids the kiddies. +Yes? +Make each day as pleasant as you can +Oh yes. +because it's the pleasant times that you remember. +Yes. +Aha. +It's like your childhood. +You see, you see a lot of bad at times. +That's right. +But you pass them by. +That's right. +I mean you're looking back on your childhood, you always think of your childhood being sunny days. +All the pl pleasant +Isn't that right? +That's right. +Isn't that right? +That's right. +That's right. +Er +that's still going you know. +Yes. +I'll put those in that bag. +There's have you got a +Have I, there is a bag here. +I left these over. +Oh right. +There is a bag. +Now there's those batteries. +Right. +Right. +I've had two. +That's alright. +That's fine. +Two from there +I would say it's all present and correct. +that's, that's new. +That's right. +Those these are new. +Th those are the two that you put in. +Right. +Are those +Finished. +are those finished? +They were finished. +Right. +Right. +So I'll pop the two new ones in there. +Yes. +But these I tried, but they'd they'd been used. +Oh. +That's un +And strapped down. +That's unusual. +Well no light comes on. +Right. +Well, that's fine. +So I did a ha one side of a tape +Right. +with them on and it was no good. +Right. +Cos I thought I had done it. +That's nice that's nice to know. +You know. +That's nice to know. +That was and and those are all, those are all done then? +I think so. +How, this is how they just came back to me so +Yeah. +that's er that's fine. +Right, so they're +Can I get you to fill in that conversation. +Just, just myself and, and you. +And er er filled in that you see? +Right. +I would +There. +Just yourself. +And and myself. +Now look, look. +You see, isn't that, isn't that almost finished? +Yeah. +Is it? +Is it? +Yeah. +okay. +Is that almost finished? +Yes. +Mhm +Where are you? +Which way does that go? +I'll switch it off shall I? +No, no. +no. +Keep it on. +Oh we'll soon switch it on again. + +When I said that spike went up his trouser leg and shouted and up and at them ! +Ee I've +Well +got, I've got a market research to fill in there. +Right. +Come in with my little white . +Don't come in this door! +Come in the next door. +Turn it off! +Tu turn it off? +Why? +Are you frightened you will er swear? +shit. +Did I get you? +Eh? +Normally I wouldn't. +Are you gonna ? +Oh he is! +It's dreadful rain! +Ah? +What's wrong? +I even got you did I? +I ain't saying it again! +Is my dinner ? +Er well it's +it's in the oven! +Well you don't wanna you start. +Go in and get it. +Everything I say! +Heard yo me calling you. +No. +Yeah. +There's still some flames coming out you know. +Yeah. +Yes there is. +It don't does it? +It's gonna get worser . +That's that's either gonna get worser or it's gonna die down but I think it's gonna get worser . +Why does she keep that fire engine? +There is int there? +Mm. +She was right about that summat in her life. +Don't matter does it? +Look at that little dog. +Look at them bushes. +Mm,. +She's like an old washer women,! +Then we'll go with little doggy. +Yeah, I think, well that could be a doggy there. +Mm. +Aye. +Could be a dog. +I didn't know she had a dog, I thought it was a kit cat she had. +No, a wee baby Andrew calls it a rat dog! +A what? +A rat dog. +Ah! +That's cruel! +Mm. +Ooh now it's a . +Ooh! +Yeah ! +It's cold int it? +Mhm. +There he is again Mrs . +Ooh! +Get some insurance. +It's very dramatic isn't it? +Very. +You're not quite sure about these old . +Ah! +What? +I thought of something. +'s coming down. +Them people have already had an earbashing! +Has David gone ? +I don't know where's he gone, he just disappeared? +Yeah it's going down. +It isn't. +Mm mm. +Oh! +They hate it when they've lost their dog. +There's a little dog, look! +Oh that's a cat! +Seriously, is that the cat? +Yeah, that +Look! +I mean they're running. +It doesn't matter if she got a fag out or not but it still could easily go onto the carpet +Yeah. +couldn't it? +What? +What? +They're on the way squire ! +Yeah. +They're not are they dad? +No. +Not with not with +Especially, now no one them. +That's why you've gotta go smokeless for. +Yeah. +And they're not changing theirs then. +And you get twice as much bloody soot! +You never do? +You do. +Oh crikey! +What? +Look at the flames! +Can you see the flames? +That's either getting worser or better int it? +Mrs and now she'll just have a burn out. +She couldn't coming to me. +She never does . +Disgusting! +Shut up yourself! +I'm trying to watch this! +Shut up! +No, I can't do your homework! +You could do my homework please! +! +You know when you shouted earlier when we were changing the room round? +Soon as you said you can't do it he were gone for dust! +He flew upstairs ! +? +Mrs . +Is it? +Oh I know them. +Erm, thingy's chimney's on fire they said. +Is it? +She said looks like it's on fire. +Look! +Everybody goes running! +Ha ha! +Is it? +There's all sparks coming out of it! +And flames! +Can you see? +Come here Kimmy! +Kimmy come here! +It doesn't matter if she'd got a fire guard or not, but it still could easily get onto the +Yeah. +carpet couldn't it? +What? +What? +They're on their way squire ! +Yeah. +They're not safe these houses are they dad? +No. +Not with, not with that +Especially now no one has looked at them. +That's why you've gotta go smokeless for. +Yeah. +And they're not changing anything. +And you get twice as much bloody soot! +You never do? +You do. +Oh crikey! +What? +Look at the flames! +Can you see the flames? +That's either getting worser or better int it? +Mrs and now she's just gonna go burn out!. +She come through talking to me. +There's the doggy look! +Oh aye! +Here's the dog. +All wrapped up with him, it's a wonder she don't . +Ah! +You know, like da dad yesterday +Mm. +It's only a little whippet. +Mind you, she were close to that big dog though weren't she? +Oh aye! +She use to ride on that big dog's back. +Look! +There's flames coming over . +She's gone upstairs ! +You can't be too careful, I mean look what . +Yeah. +Now could +They'll have to go up into the attic. +Cos it's well alight innit Dave? +Yeah I think so. +There's no fire in that man said . +And it's took all the fire out of it he there ain't no fire in that bottom one. +They won't be long coming will they love? +No. +That fire's it keeps going in a making it go to Look! +Look! +This flames out I think there. +It seems to be dying down dunnit? +No. +Ha! +Mind you, every time you say that there's more comes out of it. +There's most flames coming out of it just before you called them. +Yeah. +And he said to me you better ring for the fire engine cos it's . +What? +What? +I think it's died down now. +It'll cost them twenty five quid that. +Look! +I never had no fire in did I? +I had a . +Mam. +Your idea of no fire is absolute . +There was no fire, were there Dave? +No. +Up at Mrs 's. +You're not gonna them are you? +Wonder if she'll stop it? +They'll have to come now won't they Dave? +make sure it's out. +It's out now. +It's not! +Are you sure. +Not. +Still smo coming up. +Pauline's +Eh? +mum Pauline's mum had two in less +Two more fires? +in less than three months weren't it? +Did she? +Yeah! +Pauline moved out and she moved back in again though didn't she? +Yeah, look! +It's still going. +Where? +None coming out of it now. +No. +Oh! +There. +It's still look! +There's the dog. +It's still going. +Is fire coming off it? +How long does it take them to die out? +Hours. +Even if there's no erm +Even after there's no sparks coming out i the fireman will have to see to it now. +Yeah, but even if there's no sparks coming out of it, there could still be a +Inside. +Inside. +inside. +The chimney. +Our one were out but they still see to it didn't they? +Yeah. +It will die out over there and the flames were coming through the bricks weren't it mam? +Taking their time! +Mind you, they're getting too many hoax calls aren't they? +It's still flaring look Dave, int it Dave? +Look! +You can still li you can see the flames. +You can still see the flames coming. +It didn't . +They've had the little girl in there. +Well mam, if the chimney gets any worser then all we gotta do is +Mam. +Mrs 's still going int it? +Really ! +I can smell chips. +Must be something at the top of that chimney. +Chips! +See it's going out now look, but there's still some more. +Might be that car that went David must have gone with Brian. +Must be. +He's warmer in there. +I'm gonna watch Emmerdale Farm. +It's not on yet. +I know. +It's only +It's in +ten to. +Yeah. +Ten to. +There's a house by that . +Because they, they keep coming up fucking they don't do nothing! +That's just you. +That is! +That's another you! +There's still some more flame. +Ah! +But are you gonna yell at my mum, dad for making a big ? +But it's gone down now innit Dave? +But they can ma can make sure because if you make another fire it could move in couldn't it Dave? +Mhm. +Where's th the fire engine? +It's on its way mum, and if it's o they +What? +say it's on its way, it's on its way! +Don't really have sirens on just for a chimney fire. +They do! +They don't. +They do in case it co gets out of hand. +Oh! +So if it's goes,der der der der ! +You can hear it. +Mind you, you don't know where they're coming from though do you? +Still flames coming. +There's still flames, look! +Well it's not. +Well when you're stood there you can see the flames. +It's more sparks that are coming out. +messing a mess! +Making a mess, mother! +Not messing a mess. +But, but +Look at Mrs sa Mrs 's, it was well alight and he'd had to go all in the attic of Mrs 's didn't they Dave? +Else he didn't know what done, until Davey went and told her. +I think it's gone down now don't you? +Yeah. +You've had no need to ring for them have you? +Mind you, by the time they get here it's they've probably gone out anyway! +They still at it look. +Look! +It's still going innit Dave? +There's occasional sparks now and then so it must be still going. +have you seen mum and dad there ? +No, not yet ! +What's she say dad? +It's still coming out of this. +Dad? +They couldn't miss,she was running in, she says, they're coming! +They're coming ! +Is Emma getting excited. +Oh! +Well it's still coming out +Yeah. +innit Dave? +Yeah. +Now if they say don't, tell them not to bother. +It could get going again. +And it could come up again couldn't it dad? +Well alight so +Mm. +Have they gone in? +It's still some more coming out ain't there Dave? +What did she say Dad? +Here it comes! +It's coming! +Ha ! +D'ya know this could happen on a nice night like instead of freezing like this ! +They're here look! +You couldn't stop them now could you? +No. +Where? +Can't you hear them? +Here they are. +Here they come! +Everyone's just getting excited ! +There's still some coming out though Dave. +There's still some coming out look, int there Dave? +Look at these! +! +Oh dear! +I'm glad I, I'm not going up the chimney! +Look who started it? +I don't believe I said that ! +You don't believe you said that ! +Good one! +They've got to go up to check it now haven't they Dave? +Oh aye +Well the +they'll check it. +the invisible firemen cos I can't see them! +Look! +Don't knock my +They probably have got lost. +I think you'd better with this. +Ah? +If you keep it well away. +Yeah! +Probably coming that end. +Probably got stuck down there. +They are, they're coming this way. +I think they're coming. +That way. +They're coming up tha from down there. +Cos I can hear them coming. +They're here! +Told you! +Want any of that +There they are. +There they are. +out the way. +It's down here! +Ah yeah! +Oh ! +God! +They won't get little Emma will they? +Little Emma's a pest! +She'll get in the way won't she dad? +Here they are ri Ian's waving them now look. +But can they seem him! +Well did you see me? +Oh I hate those blue flashing lights! +It's not out. +They've got to go up. +Where's Mrs ? +She's missing all this! +Haven't they Dave? +Cos our one were out when they come. +Oh! +Do they have to keep those flashing lights going! +They've gotta check it haven't they Dave? +I bet they don't. +They will. +Well I I think they will, I don't know. +They will, they'll have to check it. +They checked our one when it were out didn't they? +Yeah. +I can't see now! +Mind you, there was an occasional sparks +I reckon they will. +They'll have to check it won't they Dave? +Yeah. +See look! +There's still some sparks coming out. +Still some sparks, yep. +That fireman can see them can't he Dave? +You're right u yeah +They will. +there's still some more. +Come on Lesley! +Where are you? +You're usually here when something happens. +Ah! +They're probably out but it's in the erm houses that they're are erm, looking through windows. +There's his dad. +Going to seventeen. +They're gonna check it aren't they Dave? +Well +It could be, it could be erm it could right in the middle couldn't it dad? +Yeah. +They know don't they Dave? +The firemen, don't they? +They'll check it. +They are, they're going now. +That's better, I can see now. +There! +There's occasional sparks coming through. +They've still got some sparks coming out though they've got no . +They'll go and have a look on top and have look there. +Yeah. +Yeah. +Send +Yeah. +in. +Are they? +you might be able to see. +Watch a car coming round the green! +Was there was one car, that way? +It looked as if he were turning his head all the way round ! +Them firemen knows when it's alight don't they Dave? +Twenty. +I think they're gonna go up. +Are they? +Yeah. +Yeah. +Going up, if they could see. +Yeah. +They're going home. +No. +Yes. +Yeah, going up. +They're going up. +They're getting up. +They're going up. +Oh! +How exciting ! +Ooh! +Ooh! +And Mrs still hasn't come out! +But you yeah, well, mind you, she's not very well though is she? +No. +No. +Her back hurts her. +No one else out. +They're going up, look Dave! +Yes. +They'll probably can see something we can't see won't they? +They can see the roof. +Yeah that's +Mm. +cos they know what they're doing. +Even if they say it's out +No. +I don't believe they could ge +It might not be out. +I don't believe they could get lost coming round here not with all the back fields on fire. +No. +All that time. +Oh! +They're putting a sheet up so I don't know if they're gonna do summat. +Probably gonna clean it for her, eh? +Did they clean ours? +Yeah. +Well +Putting a sheet up anyway. +Look! +See! +See +Spark. +those sparks. +Yeah. +Take no notice of her mother then when it's +No. +out will they? +Oh! +John's out through the window! +Oh aye. +They'll wonder who went and got the fire engine won't they? +Possibly. +And +Cos they won't turn the lights off. +Look at that! +Still sparks coming out of it. +Yeah, they'll not turn the lights out until the till i make sure it's out and everything. +Oh we he said it's out, but it's not is it Dave? +You don't know though now. +It could be or it couldn't. +Why chuck salt on a ? +Why not ju water on it? +Cos that will be +Oh! +And you put salt +You see if you put +on a fire. +if you put er water on +Oh! +They're taking that. +But look! +It's er +It's still alight though. +Ooh!me going up there! +Ooh! +Yeah you've got to write your name then haven't you? +Yeah! +Write your name. +What's your name? +Excuse me a minute can I just ? +And here we go! +Then what? +Enter. +Suppose so. +That is it. +Oh! +This is nice and easy isn't it? +Is that enter then, yeah? +Yeah. +Oh! +Oh good! +You're on your way are you? +I am. +We're well away! +Good! +This is nice and easy! +I want a chair. +I'm not using one of them! +Okay. +That's it. +How are we getting on? +very well. +Look! +Look! +Look! +Oh I can't get rid of that now! +Can you ah can you copy to me? +Oh! +Erm +Oh! +The nought's got a dot in the middle! +Not any more. +And I didn't put it over there. +Where's the erm comma? +Just down there. +No it's not. +Yes it is! +Oh yes it is. +Do not argue! +Er I want the co oh! +I dunno! +What are you doing? +I'm not getting far. +in capitals. +Actually what? +Yeah. +Supposed to leave a space Emma! +Shut up! +Slant your address. +Mind you if she was erm she weren't in love with a poor man, then yeah, but no I don't think she is. +Mind you +had his other girlfriend didn't he? +He packs his girlfriend in then went with Jane, but he was still going out with a girlfriend if you know what I mean. +He went, she was pestering him. +Mind you, I don't know +And he asked Jane to go down to sort her out but Jane's scared of a fight. +Jane's scared of offending her. +I know. +Mind you, I'd feel now she'd mucking up. +Yeah. +Well her mother's gone and mucked up everybody's life. +I don't think it was her mother to tell you the truth. +I think it was erm him. +Mm. +Mind you well going, going erm getting her best friend's husband and lived next door to them as well! +Mind you, if erm someone erm thought of erm if you're on your own and a man says to you I'm married but I don't like it can I come and live with you? +I would say no! +And you sort of like him and +Make no difference. +Well mind you, she's thick anyway, so +She'd have to be with that hair! +Oh! +And I, I really wouldn't believe that her friend couldn't see what was going on? +They used to have walks didn't they, all together with the dogs? +They were like sisters. +Well she should have known. +Mind you when she says erm, when Jane says th she went on holiday with them and her mother and father's and that's when they split up. +But I think it could have been over him. +It could have started years back you know but who's to say. +He mind you but old men don't they? +Mm. +Don't they just. +Mind you got out. +Yeah. +He'd done the right thing. +Yeah. +Jane's done sort of a good thing by getting out, but she's gonna have to be an idiot +A +Yeah. +Even worse! +Yeah ! +Yeah. +I can't undersa I can't understand how comes she's got involved with the first ma guy to come along? +I mean, in school +You can't really call him a man. +He were wet behind the ears! +Alien! +Looks like an alien ! +Believe me, with that body and that head he does look like an alien! +Mind you if she thinks she likes him then go for it! +But in fifty years' time we could be saying well did Jane pick the right one? +And their marriage has lasted. +But th then again we could be saying we sa we told you so! +In fifty years time I could be married. +But I doubt that very much! +Urgh! +Some things will be better if you're married. +Oh there's quite a few. +I don't think Jane's got any erm brains when it comes to men. +She's got no brains at all. +She's got no brain! +I mean in school right +Mm mm. +the simplest test you could ever do she failed! +She got three! +Erm just because I got ten, if you got ten, you passed if you got under ten you're a drip that's what said. +Mm, so she's a drip. +And she was saying to me, she says, I wish I were brainy like you! +No. +She says I'm brainy, I'm brainy! +Well we all can't be born with brains can we? +Well your one ma one erm that er example +Got some , I've got some brains somewhere they just keep falling to sleep! +And +I doubt if your brain would fall asleep Tracey! +But it could be true your brain might be asleep after mind you if you went too erm mouthy at work tomorrow shut your mouth then your brains would be working! +Yes but she's not coming in tomorrow is she? +Shit! +Well no. +Mind you, it we it was quiet today. +Very quiet! +Er very, very quiet ! +I can't believe how much I got done! +Well the letters were going alright but when it came to that the +The menu. +party oh! +The menu I can do, I've do that's fine but, +Well my typewriter my typewriter were going funny it really was. +But when I pressed O it turned out W but you know as we're typing and all of a sudden you've pressed O, and then I say I press W I got W up but no O. +as if I'm +Every time I +sticking. +every time I pressed a key the ribbon kept flying up! +It's either the correction button going or you need a new one. +No, the ribbon's alright. +It's the correction button then. +Cos you put the ribbon in didn't you? +No. +You had a oh! +You had this one didn't you? +Yeah. +Now I'm gonna put S I. +Changed over. +Mm. +But I think those bigger ones, that ones they had to have today, is better than the ones you're on. +Even though I can't find that button to take the other ones off. +Oh I know! +I couldn't find that one. +I pressed every button I could find and I still couldn't find it. +No I couldn't. +I kept getting percentages. +I didn't want a percent ! +I wanted the other one. +Mind you, if they give us a manual. +Mm mm. +I wonder if Jane used one? +Mm. +Now she was where we were and that office junior turned up she would have gone for there and I prob bet she will probably be quite +She would of. +Mind you, I could go for it anyway if I wanted to. +But who wants to work in a solicitors? +Be fun! +Yeah but they treat you as a skivvy. +Oh do they? +Make make +make coffee, make tea, coffee, general duties +General dogsbody more like it ! +Probably. +Yes but where does general dogsbody lead? +Mm. +The front door mostly ! +Oh aye. +Oh well like she said today, there's no guarantee of getting a job at the end. +No. +But in some cases there are. +Now there's us working working, taking everything in, working slowly taking everything in piece by piece we could end up with a job at the end of it cos we know what we're doing. +Cor! +Do you think so? +Like she said to that new girl take your time learn it, get to know it properly she said you learn what was it? +Well actually she said erm what did she say now? +If you do it properly first time around you'll know it all the time. +Mm, mm mm. +But then she's taking it here, do it! +But I think tomorrow I'm gonna take it in and tell her I can't do it. +I was thinking about saying that ! +Well you shouldn't lie to her. +The books haven't come in yet. +You should tell her that you can't do it. +I suppose you're right. +Mind you get in early while ev before everybody else gets there and we'll ask if she can explain it to you. +.They stopped when Annette went through the right? +Mhm. +Then he stopped. +And she went at around one o'clock. +And it was two o'clock when they stopped talking, they stopped having their break! +I've had, one! +No it was two o'clock when they stopped talking. +They started their break at one o'clock and finished at two. +Well they were still working when we left. +Yeah, because th they keep nattering and they don't get nothing done and then it after then, but we've gone. +But it's ridiculous! +What do you call that one with the big, Mary is it? +I don't know. +Seen her today. +She has finally stopped saying she's got, she's had office experience. +And she +About she actually says that about +No. +Jaws. +No! +Oh I mean, you are talking about Jaws? +Yes ! +I'm talking about Jaws. +She hasn't said, since we said that off that time, she hasn't said anything about her office experience. +And she hasn't mentioned the incident with the erm copying machine. +Mm. +Well anybody knows she actually int cos there was nobody in there to, to see what she were doing with it. +No. +Suppose, I suppose if erm Pat or erm Annette wanted to find out what really happened they'd ask Dianne and Dianne would tell them cos they, they get to find out the truth then and she was lo lo lying. +But it was a bit of a coincidence when she walked out that day and er she didn't come for a week! +She didn't come back for two days. +For a week! +A week? +Yeah! +She didn't come back all week. +I had flu! +She didn't have flu! +She said, I think she were gonna wonder what, what they're gonna do to her for for the copy machine. +Yes! +Mind you, they're well suited! +They're both big! +And bulky! +Urgh! +No. +. If she'd have got done the pho photocopier machine she would have got, she would have got all she deserves! +She would have! +Just cos she's erm worked in an office before doesn't doesn't mean to say she she knows everything like she implies! +Well look at me, I've worked in an office before but, do I know everything? +I don't know, do you? +No! +Enough to run the photocopying machine ! +Well you're one up on me cos I don't! +I know how a basic computer works I think. +Yeah, I don't, I don't think I'll forget about that. +I can type. +I can type. +Mind you, you get . +We'll put the flags out when she leaves! +I'm just frightened that, in the +She'll +What about ! +Erm no! +No way! +I couldn't do that. +But I keep ra every time I close my eyes I keep wondering if she's gonna pop up with the same er +We started there on the twenty sixth of December, November +No! +When we, in the, in the , in the the erm +It wasn't the twenty sixth of December +We +because tha +when we first started there on the course itself, typists first time we got into the erm it was the twenty sixth of erm of December. +It wasn't because Christmas +Day was on the twenty fifth of December! +Course ! +It's the, the, er what was it now? +Twenty +It was the week before. +Twenty something. +Wasn't twenty, it was erm +It was twenty something. +Erm twe twenty nineteenth. +Nineteenth! +Nineteenth or so something like that. +So from that day from Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday, those four days we have there Jaws kept saying, but I haven't worked i but I have had office experience +Yeah. +and I have had office experience. +I've worked in an office before! +If she's worked in an office before how come she's there? +And learning to type? +And er, she hasn't had any qualifications. +No. +And her husband's eight years older than her! +Oh! +She keeps saying that every time, she keeps saying that! +I know, that's the new one int it? +Husband's eight years older than +I feel sorry for the poor man! +No you should feel +I've +sorry for her! +Yesterday ye yeah, yesterday someone came in saying sorry I'm late there was an accident. +And she started on about it! +She's like that! +You meet many people like that. +Sh and she really, and she makes me laugh when she said, talking to someone and when they start working again she turns round to the next person at the other side of her! +She's got no need to talk about other people. +She should talk about herself! +Mind you I think she owns the place myself. +Ha! +Like when the boss is around she goes ooh! +She's as bad as me and you ! +Ah! +Not quite. +You could both the the building shake! +Er Did she give up smo did she say she gave up smoking? +Yes. +Well I think it was her. +My mum gave up smoking. +Stupid to start anyway! +Yeah. +I mean, what does it do for you apart from +Give you bad breath, make your clothes smell awful! +taking your money. +Takes your money. +Well fo for that much money you can easily just say, look I'm going away. +Yeah. +No, I wonder why? +Er, a certain Canadian! +Yeah +Mind you, I suppose you'll go off with the Italians. +One Italian. +Well, they've got the right kind of equipment! +Yes ! +That's a new one, equipment! +Oh! +A few days ago it was the right body, but equipment! +Well I don't mind if he's got all of these! +Oh well it's just the luck of the draw there. +Mm. +So I like Canadians you like Italians. +And don't forget the little Canadian. +Oh! +Oh little? +Mm. +You can't call that little! +Ooh! +We've got muscles on his eyelids! +Little Canadian! +What about his brother? +Tiny Canadian? +Well he's a only a little bit, he's only two hundred and thirty four pounds. +Only! +Mm mm! +Not very big. +Big enough. +Mind you you've only gotta look at Jane's boyfriend and he's about two pound weakling! +I wouldn't go that far. +No. +Neither would I. +I noticed! +That's right! +Would she never go for likes of erm Matthew ? +No. +She goes for the ones who erm think she, they can protect her, but when it comes to the crunch she'd have to be the one that protects them. +She's good at protecting ! +Oh! +Well she did +That's right. +when his ex-girlfriend came around! +She'd let him he'd be . +Pretending she were a dog! +She's no need to pretend! +Well she does look like a Rottweiler a bit don't she ? +Oh! +Get out! +I like Rottweilers. +They look like Shaun. +How about the chihuahua ? +Now that's Shaun! +No! +I pulled them. +Shaun? +Yeah. +Do you know something? +I don't know why but Hit Man look tons better in clothes than he does out of them. +He does! +I've told you that's because he's erm leggings or whatever they call them th they wear but the +Leggings tights. +stretch yes +Yes well +tights we'll call them they stretch out. +Mm. +They make him look fat. +Now they're all he wears. +Urgh! +Well, I don't know what he's trying to hide ! +Or trying to erm save but who wants to wear them kind of trousers? +Oh I don't know I used to boyfriend. +Oh I can see Emma wear, wear did wear them. +He's grown out of them though ain't he? +He's grown out of it. +He's grown out of it. +Andy said he wanted some of them. +Oh! +Oh! +They're awful! +I think it was him, or was it David? +It were one of the two. +They are absolutely awful! +You don't need to tell me! +I've it's yo it's not like we was ? +Can't see ! +You move onto the +His legs. +I always start at the back so there's nothing else. +Er now whenever I 've me I honestly wish he would go under a sunlamp and melt! +And melt! +He is pathetic! +Underline pathetic! +Mind you I suppose his head is erm smaller than his shoulders so that makes him like like a, sort of normal person. +A wimp! +Ah! +Did you see that ? +Yes. +Coming back. +Mm. +Er what about that line he came out with? +Something about don't go with the zero when you can go with the ero ! +Ero ! +Oh! +If he's an ero I'd rather stick with the zero! +I'd rather stick with Superman! +Even though he does fly around in funny tights! +Wears his undies on the outside! +Now I have seen Martin and they are fifteen well built +Mm mm? +Mm. +Just the right kind of shape +Fine! +to go with his body which is also well built. +Well I thought Shaun was gonna show his legs but no he didn't. +I don't think he will, not with the erm heavy bandaging he has on his leg. +Should wrap it round his face! +Would +What +be an improvement! +Oh! +Shut up! +I used to like that ! +Well you were the one who said you wanted to marry him! +I've quickly changed my mind about that! +Mm. +Very quickly! +Mm! +I suppose it'd be alright if you find the right person. +Yeah. +But after a time the right person could tie you down. +The right person sometimes turns out to be the wrong kind of person. +I'm glad I've got two to choose from. +Oh yeah ! +Are you quite sure it's two? +Yes. +Quite sure. +Oh! +I had three last time. +Well just depends don't it? +If them two turn out to be +Creeps! +unavailable is available and any offers +No way! +I might just take him on it! +No way! +Why? +He's too big! +Yeah, but he's the right kind of height. +Cute and cuddly, yeah but muscle-wise +I know he's got muscles bigger than muscles ! +I think he's bigger than Arnold Schwarzanegger myself! +He's just a big friendly giant that's all. +I don't think yo I think you may be right but I don't think I could keep up with the different kind of hairstyles! +I didn't know he changes hairstyles every day. +Mm! +Mm! +It looks the same to me, until he's had it cut back a bit. +I think it looks alright when it's cut back. +Mm mm. +Well I like it over to the side. +I like it like that, it looked cuter like that. +Mm. +Mind you, I think I'll have my hair shaved off. +Wrestle mania, see. +Where he took on Hulk Hogan for the championship round? +No. +Way before that. +In the ultimate, while he were there. +Ooh! +Dead cute! +Mind you, he isn't the sort of +he wasn't the wrestlers that I liked. +If you know what I mean it was wrestling in those funny kind of shorts. +No it wasn't. +I remember last year his jacket now that was nice! +Ah! +And he looked good in that jacket. +I've seen him in a proper leather jacket. +A proper, proper leather jacket! +Have you? +Yeah. +I, do you know something? +When he's in clothes when he, not wearing his wrestling tights, or trunks whatever he calls them +Shorts. +he looks smaller. +Oh he don't, he looks bigger. +No! +He looks smaller. +You know height-wise but muscle-wise +Muscle-wise bigger. +more wider +Yeah. +which, you should be in shorts. +You know that stripy T-shirt I've got the +Mm. +black and white one? +He wears one exactly like that. +Oh you, what you mean when he finds erm +Yeah. +Yeah. +And a leather jacket. +Mm. +They're probably wearing those awful ! +Oh yeah. +I bet they're all wearing them boots! +Oh! +I've, them yellow ones with the black Christ! +Urgh! +They are awful! +It's like bananas going bad! +Oh my God! +Mind you, it can only happen in America. +Yeah. +And Wrestle Mania si seven no now that was funny! +Yeah. +Ah yeah! +That's +ding ding, ding! +Oh! +Where did she find that dress? +Oh God! +She must have borrowed it off Derby! +Oh! +They were awful! +Yes. +Not, it was erm, a sequined one. +Yeah. +And it was awful! +Low cut thin straps fairly short I am almost positive she borrowed that off Barbie! +Mm. +Or could she have got it off one of those star dogs! +Mm! +She could have! +Mm. +I wonder if they're going to go out this year? +this year. +Mhm. +Er where they've just held the erm Superbowl. +Ah! +Football! +I hate that trash! +Yeah. +American football. +Mm. +I can't understand it. +Oh I can. +Yo se you erm +Erm there are a lot of touch downs. +If you get the ball in +! +it's a bit like rugby. +It's a cross between rugby and football. +I don't know. +Now if you can understand rugby or football then you can understand +I'll stick, I'll stick , I'll stick to wrestling can understand that better. +Oh yeah! +Get in +Er the +the ring, ding ding, start fighting down, you're dead and that's it! +Yeah well I know all the wrestling. +And I also get rugby. +Mhm. +I know what a wrist lock is I know what an arm lock is, I know what a head lock is. +Yes Tracey! +We all know what you know what it is. +I also know what his mum's like. +Ah!? +Big. +Daft. +Big +He's daft! +I don't know. +Big! +Mm mm. +Yeah. +Can't wait till they come back over here. +Ha! +Well I can. +Oh ! +Maybe, next time we'll get to meet them close up. +I got really, fairly close up this time. +If you say you want to meet them close up +That as well. +Yes I do. +You never know what could happen. +Yeah. +They're gonna take one look at you and run the other way! +That is not funny! +Sorry! +Anyway, who's to say I couldn't be erm the next Mrs Hitler, or the next Mrs Genetic? +Or both at the same time ? +Ooh no! +I get too tired! +No, I shall settle just for one person. +Mind you, you could let your thoughts wonder a bit. +Well they do wonder ! +Wonder why you're stuck over here and they're over there. +Mm. +Wondering why they never write back. +I've come to the cil er, conclusion that Americans don't know how to write. +Th they know how to make everything bigger than anyone else. +And go over the top. +But they do not know how to put pen to paper! +Mm. +It's nearly three years since I started writing, I haven't got +It can't be! +Nearly three years! +No two. +One +Yeah , nearly two years. +No. +Eighty nine ninety one, ninety two. +Two years. +Two years this August. +Crikey! +I didn't think that was so long! +I have written in two years and not one reply back. +Not one reply back! +Probably +I don't know if it's my writing or what ! +Probably is. +It could be you know. +Even when I typed it. +There's got to be a reason that they have not replied. +Yeah. +They just don't know how good erm ways I'm gonna +Oh no! +I'll send them a photo next time then they might reply. +Yes they will definitely +No one with pictures please! +Or send them one of Jaws! +Oh! +Then they'll have to reply. +I'll send them one of Jane. +Oh no! +I don't wanna scare them. +Put Jaws and Jane together. +They'd not know the difference. +I mean Jabber Jaws. +Mm! +That's what I mean! +Mm. +Mind you if Jabber Jaws and Mrs T over there,talking,you wouldn't be able to stop them ! +They'd find +They could have a talking competition. +they'd find any of the conversation under the sun to talk about! +Mm. +And then every so often it's I've had office experience and my husband's this, and husband's that and my brother-in-law can do this, and my brother-in-law can do that! +Yeah. +Oh and I've stopped this and I've stopped that! +Oh! +Haven't you e have you heard her? +And don't forget my husband's eight years older than +Shh! +Well I suppose it's better than being twenty years younger or whatever. +Or even fifty years. +Might even got married cos somebody older I don't know if it was fifty +I don't know. +I know someone in the States has married an eighty year old and she was only eighteen! +Urgh! +Yeah? +Yeah. +He was eighty and she was eighteen. +But he was eighty, she was eighteen, not he was eighteen and she was eighty ? +I said he was eighty! +Nearly eighty one. +And she'd just turned eighteen. +Silly that! +Well of course it is! +How long do you think they'd have together! +Mind you, do you know that if you'd marry somebody erm years older than er and that, she says, well if I die she'd have the money. +But also sa +That's it int it? +also said that when that person, if she married somebody, say fifty years older than her, that they died and didn't leave her to pay. +Then she'd be laughing! +But, she doesn't want children. +Well she's just a number anyway, whether you stick together. +Yeah. +Mind, don't take it too far when you've got when you go in er, an eighteen year old married an eighty one year old now that is going too far! +What about someone twelve years younger? +Mind you, I suppose it's better than being fifty odd years older int it? +Mm. +Well, look at Tom and Marjorie they were she was eight years younger than him. +But thank God it didn't last! +No I won't hear of it . +If he'd of married her, she'd be er pancake. +As he said in that advert, she's pancake! +Pancake? +Yeah. +Hit by a steam roller ! +Oh! +four people. +Yeah. +Do you know I if you ask Andrea about it, anything she'll probably go on for ages, and ages, and ages, and ages! +Well yeah, even when we probably don't though. +She lives on her own now! +Oh yeah! +Brand new, this year. +Well mind you, I like and my dad says is your mum twenty one again? +And he goes no, she's thirty four ! +Oh! +And Beryl phoned my dad. +She doesn't tell you everything about does she? +No. +Mind you, kids don't anyway do they? +No. +Well Brett doesn't. +I still can't get over being over the edge. +Course you can! +I can't. +I can't think hitting him but I don't think I could put him over the edge. +Er er er, I can't remember him throwing him over the edge. +Mind you, that's my violent temper. +Mm mm. +We all know what your violent temper's like! +Mm mm! +Make a good wrestler. +Oh shut up about wrestling again! +Mm. +It's my favourite sport! +It's not your favourite sport it's the hunky wrestlers themselves,that's your favourite sport ! +Only two! +Er two and half-ish! +About two and a half-ish. +Three-ish. +Why's that? +Well the +You can't be than six. +Er, you love . +Mm. +Oh ! +I wonder how we're gonna games. +I haven't got rid of this one er bloody yet. +Sorry I can't do these they're off. +Goodbye. +I honestly believe I will cough up. +That's if we get a typewriter I will be gone! +I will just fall apart! +Nothing to worry about. +I'll be a bag of nerves! +Mind you, what am I saying! +I hated the exams at school I didn't think I'd have to go all through them again. +I didn't think I'd passed. +Well hopefully they'll pass them round the table. +But I came out with an O level! +Do you? +Do you think you'll pass your R S A one? +It all depends I, er, it's fifty fifty. +I know it and I've passed then I'll say yes, I can do it. +If I haven't done it I and er +You don't need bu but cos you haven't done it, you don't know if you'd pass it or or not do you? +And if you get in +We don't know anything about +if you go into the room sit down in front of the typewriter and the exam begins, and you do it you could pass easy, well I've done it and I've passed! +No need to worry about then you get on to your R S A two ! +Mind you, once you get to the know the typewriter and that I mean you know what you're doing and you've done your R S A one. +And it stops breaking down with you. +And you stop swearing at it! +Ah! +One mistake! +I'd like to see that silly next to us on the computer going into an exam and the machine won't work for her properly. +But I'd probably end up breaking it! +Even worse! +Probably head-butt it! +Mm. +But +Or like yesterday when you you stupid machine! +He looked at you as if to say Jees! +She can swear! +I wasn't swearing! +Just said +I know! +stupid machine. +I know. +He did, he did look at you though. +Mm. +Oh your face though ! +Although I were really mad . +It caught me with my hand I were going so well and all of a sudden +And there's you thinking well I'm on the other side of this book, well past you Tracey and you had to start all over again! +Oh I know! +But you wanted a bit of lesson didn't you? +Erm, I probably would have done because I made lots of mistakes and I couldn't be bothered to go back and check them ! +Oh. +Yeah. +I think I might get another se seat tomorrow. +You're not having my seat! +There's no way I'm sitting next to +Oh have you got +Fat face! +It's not that bad. +No, she never does. +Mm. +No. +Mm mm. +Nothing interesting up there. +Conversation-wise or +Well it depends +All depends who turns up tomorrow. +Mhm. +I think Dianne said she was gonna be in but she won't erm +Well if I turned up +Well, there should be, it's bound to be when you starting a, you know, big exam int it? +Somebody in the erm exam wouldn't it? +She could do it when no one 's here. +But they could of easily just said, well, come in Monday, Tuesday, off Wednesday, and Thursday and Friday instead of having all them days off. +They should go in a separate room for the exams though. +And the per people who are not doing exams still can can erm, do their work. +Oh I know. +Now it's not fair on those others that are in the other room doing their exams there, and they're just making all that noise from the typewriters in the other room. +And you're walking straight through. +Anyone! +And you're walking through, yeah! +It's not fair on them! +They should have had erm you know,yo yo , there's another, there's another erm like another office at the top of us stay +Mm. +there. +And there's er, steps going up. +They should have erm right up the top up there they should have had that for an exam room. +Mm. +I don't think that the whole office isn't big enough. +Should have it should have separate room for the computers and for the typewriters and for the Y T S students. +They have that, when I up there, the other place I was at, you know and that judge thing, and I'll have it all to +Yeah. +myself. +Er you had erm a room for, you had erm it were like school. +You had er a class for a class for postage right? +Then you had ee, you had, the white classrooms then you had er, a class with all yo with your compu computers +Computers. +computers a classroom for your typewriters +Mm. +and you took turns at using it, each one. +Mm. +And even though it was like a classroom situation they didn't treat you like children. +And they like the computer teacher he wo he se he taught us from the very beginning step by step, or even how to plu plu push the plug in. +Well everybody knows how to just push the plug in, but he ta +Well what do I have to contribute? +Anything. +Anything. +Normal day conversation. +Normal day conversation? +Yeah. +Is this part of your er, course at college? +No. +No,i it's er a survey. +I, I think they want to find out exactly how words were used +Yes. +twenty years ago, and then compare it with what words are used today. +So you need people of my particular age group. +No. +It don't matter what age gro any, anybody. +Yeah. +It's just normal everyday conversation. +But surely the fact that somebody's of a different generation will erm th th they would have a different +No. +No. +Well no. +method of talking wouldn't they? +No,i i you see even you use di words different now than than twe twenty years ago. +Oh yes! +I, I accept that, yes. +Yeah. +Cos yo you should learn as you go shouldn't you really? +Yeah. +Exactly! +Yeah. +And I need your age as well. +My age? +Yes. +Er, it's +Twenty one! +Yes. +I'll accept that. +But, a little bit more. +Fifty and er the na do you want the name in full? +No, just one name. +Peter. +Peter means rock, firm as! +Er pa! +What are you pa-ing at? +Well this int it? +Yeah. +And here ends this morning's party political broadcast! +Ah! +Ha! +Well what's this week? +It's explain it. +I've explained it. +Then I shall I tell you it's spoken English. +You'll probably read in the dictionary probably says at University, just . +Yeah. +English language, it's the first time . +So how words are used in ordinary, everyday conversation . +Yeah. +Mm. +Yeah. +But people talk er relevant to the erm to their position in society don't they? +Yeah. +I mean so that er er the different stage of society you, you your conversation changes. +You adopt adapt cheers then! +So have you got to fill the tape? +Twenty. +Twenty different people? +No, just twenty +You've gotta have +tapes. +It's, she says you can do as many as you want. +Yeah. +So I've only got, I've only got one done. +Have you? +Mm. +So all this is gonna be analyzed by them then? +Have you done both sides? +Yeah. +It's gonna go down on computer. +I could take that tape to some of the houses I go to, but every other word they use is an F word! +It doesn't matter. +Well I bet, on that first tape all she got, er we there's an awful lot of F words on it! +What are you looking at me for? +Ha! +The man standing in the middle of the room will remain anonymous. +We got the fire engine on as well! +I thought you were stopping? +Not that I really wanna stop! +Except when it comes to girls! +Can't get anything! +Which is quite true. +Should be able to. +Good looking young man like this! +I don't think there's anybody daft enough! +Not bright either! +Mm? +for that you know? +What? +Yeah, they couldn't really make me. +Ooh er! +Right David, thank you very much. +I hope you've got him on there. +I think that is really sort of er interesting. +You mean bowling? +Enjoy green bowling, yeah. +That appeals to me, it does. +You and unemployed used to go and on a course there for unemployed do, and do that as well. +Whereabouts is that? +Er +Warren +Er Warren . +They have an indoor green bowling do they? +They have a big roll a big mat up . +Go on. +Has it still got it? +Don't know. +Been ages since the last time, it were about two year I . +This is where? +Warren +Newcut +Warren Newcut +Just up the road. +You know where you go into that school to the green building on that side +So a whe whe where is it, off the broadway? +Yeah. +Just off broadway, you go, you get a gap between two houses +Yeah. +and that goes into a school +I'm with you, yeah. +and, just on there there's a green building +Yeah. +like er +left. +on the left, and it's do that's the one in Newcut +Ah! +I'll give it a look. +And they +And er +yeah they have golf . +Ah but you have to pay for it. +I know. +I'm trying to avoid the excess cost. +I don't think it's very dear. +Yeah, but it's I'll have a +Yeah but you gotta you gotta buy your own er bowls haven't you? +No. +Do they lend you bowls? +Yeah, well if you're gonna be any good at it you've gotta get your own aren't you? +Yeah. +Well something else I've seen at a car boot. +Balls. +Yeah. +Wanna new telly now. +Telly. +I know David he, he, he i it's er +How much did you pay for telly? +Five hundred. +You bought it? +If I get you one cheaper will you wa would you want it? +I dunno. +Might do. +Gotta see it first . +But David were on about er how to start off in bowls. +Yeah. +And he sh he, he said i it's the most relaxing pastime you could ever have. +Yeah. +But he says, it's no need to be expensive but he said, don't go out and buy a set of bowls and then hope that you're gonna like it. +He says, go a few times +Mm. +and to where you can hire balls +Yeah. +and, and play he said, and then try it for a, but he said you've got to do it a few times +Yeah. +and then a if you're gonna use +if you're think you're gonna be reasonable +Mhm. +then no reason why then you shouldn't buy your own balls. +That's right. +I mean that +But you should +that applies to most things +Yeah. +dunnit? +He said but what you must do is try it, if you can +Yeah. +and vary the er weight of the bowls +Yes. +wha what you're hiring. +Yeah. +Jus just vary the weight. +Yeah. +Are you leaving that here? +That's . +Is there er +It applies to most things though, I mean, don't it David, in life? +Yeah. +Same as sex, you gotta try that a few times and then find out if you like it! +Yeah. +True. +I should have got that on tape shouldn't I? +It's on! +Is it on? +Yeah ! +Is it? +I'll have an inch. +Do you want a nut? +Got one thanks. +Do you want a brazil nut? +Do you? +Do you? +Ah! +I made it last Friday. +Oh God ! +Oh! +This is alright, I think. +Go on and open them windows. +What's up? +Mind, I won't in I don't like sport. +What? +Eh! +You know what you got in your pocket +Yo you don't like nuts? +No. +Not really, he'll, he'll just mess about with it! +He eats chocolate, a chocolate +He'll eat +one. +Oh my goodness! +erm but he don't eat peanuts. +Salted nuts he'll have. +Oh my God! +Well I did ask! +After. +Mm. +I've never had it before. +He knows what he wants . +Oh! +Here ages! +Oh! +I'll go in the bedroom. +Mm. +Don't be stupid! +Here. +In there! +Have I gotta get it? +Yeah. +Have I? +Have you got Tracey's? +Is it alright to pin it on something? +Look at that bit of paper . +then? +I don't know. +Oh look, because of that +David! +Oi! +I've in here. +Oh have you? +Probably will. +Are you nearly finished now love? +Yes you have. +Enjoying myself. +Aye. +Alright then. +Do you want one Dave? +Oi! +Yes Margaret. +I don't want any. +Thank you Margaret! +Do you want a ? +No. +Ain't seen Carol all week have you Margaret? +I'm fed up with her! +Telling me off! +Yeah. +Well I couldn't be doing with that! +And you know, well I'm afraid I'd have to hit you! +She does have them over sometimes. +She slept in them since. +Er let's hope tonight. +But we're still wrong. +Got a one. +You know that, my work is every . +Yeah. +That what? +Just didn't ran up. +Well let's go on that one, let's try that one. +At the door ! +Timmy! +Come on in Tracey! +Thank you. +Let's see +Oh! +What week is +the sixteenth of November? +Don't know. +I don't know. +Hey everyone! +Dad we're what about? +Excuse me ! +Out! +Out! +Do you think yours ? +I can't find this at all! +Twenty sixth of October. +What? +Twenty sixth of October, what, what week would that be? +Well let's go back, one, two, three +Just done it. +five one, two, three +Da I,sa I'll tell you how to work it out Dave. +six, seven +That one. +Here! +eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen. +One, two, three four, five, six, seven, eight, nine +Fifty two, fifty one. +ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen +Fifty one, fifty, forty nine +fifty one on here. +forty nine, forty eight, forty seven, forty six +Please can we play down here? +Yes. +forty five +Get out! +forty four, forty three, twenty sixth of October. +Forty three. +Thirteen weeks back. +They don't tally though. +There's thirteen and three back from that one. +I make four quid. +There's nowhere near four quid on there! +Oh no. +That's from one. +Oh God! +Two quid. +Right? +Yeah. +Well I've got a one fifty and a nothing. +No. +Which week? +Twenty you can't say it's thirteenth weeks back Dave because we, there's this week as well. +Well that, and that's eighteen. +Right. +That's sixteen. +Just hang on. +A nine an an and an eleven. +Right. +So that's four, three, two no that's gone into week five. +It's twenty fifth. +That's four, three, two, one. +Fifty two, fifty one, fifty forty nine, forty eight, forty seven, forty six, forty five,forty four, and forty three. +I don't know any of the except on there, and that, that were and tha that's, that's before er October. +Before? +That's way before October. +Well that's last year's! +What you on about? +That's last year's you're on, looking at! +We're onto this one here Dave. +Down here! +Yeah. +Thirty eight, thirty nine, forty,for forty two, forty +Oh! +Twenty sixth of October. +Yeah, you've got no payment, that's right. +What about the one before? +What? +That's there. +So the week before then +It's alright Davey take them to court! +No, there's no pay +They don't, they don't tally. +They don't tally. +There's no payment week before. +What's that? +Twenty sixth a +Just no payment. +Oh? +What's that if it's a no payment? +Nineteenth of October, that's week forty two. +Yeah that then doesn't tally with that one. +Twenty sixth of the tenth, here we are! +The sho there's no payment. +Well what's that? +Scotch mist? +Yeah, but we'll have a look on other one, that's for dark. +Have a look at your beginning of your book, that's on you're looking at! +Dad! +Dad! +Dad! +That'll be +Yeah. +that one then won't it? +Mm. +And what's that one? +Forty one, forty two +You had me going this morning! +It's this one, it's over there. +this time. +Yeah. +That's the one. +Yeah. +Yeah, she shouldn't make a payment. +Eh? +She didn't make a payment. +Well what's that? +I know! +And the two! +Five pound and two pounds. +There look. +Is he here? +Who? +Mike? +No. +He's on holiday this week. +Oh I'll ring him first thing Monday morning then. +What's wrong? +And get him to sort that out once and for all! +Well they can sort it out. +I mean that's +I'll tell him to take us ge er, all three of us to court! +Me, Tracey, and Amanda! +Yeah, but according to this there's a payment been put in and she ain't paid it. +See +Yeah. +Exactly! +Yeah, but if you say anything. +It's all going off then Margaret int they? +They got to be. +I don't want to say it! +Cos I don't +What? +mi er to be quite honest I don't believe it! +What? +Is she paying and you not putting it in? +Ah! +Get up Dave! +I mark it every time! +I know you do! +Only if you don't +And I watch her now taking the books after you! +Yeah! +So, they've got that wrong! +But she i if they say she's made a payment, she must have made a payment. +No. +All except, I can see, you know when they've been asking for this money? +I don't know Dave. +I honestly don't +No! +know. +See you don't! +Yo you can't know! +See just, she you said something about going in and ask her, and you said they put it down with that money that went missing and so they didn't put it down until paid it, but we didn't pay it. +Yeah because they'd no knocked off somebody else as well. +They definitely had knocked off somebody else er i what it i +So they've knocked it off from everybody? +Yeah. +Something like that weren't it? +Yeah. +Well I paid you didn't I? +Yeah it makes up that money that were missing. +Well I paid when there was a . +Cos that was the erm +Oh! +Yeah I know. +went she got the books back. +And did that. +See a all all I've done is put down here what what you've paid in my book. +Mm? +I mean, according to this, somebody's checked this. +It's not Mike. +I don't think it were Mike. +It definitely weren't me that checked it. +Is it that silly cow in the office? +Can't see in front of her nose! +I mean, all I did were leave book and ask them to check it. +He come out last week didn't he? +Yeah. +He come out to che check your book didn't he? +And he says, he said I, he said I'll send it back with er, a note to say I've checked it. +Tick, tick, tick! +Yeah. +But it's something wrong somewhere Margaret. +Somewhere,som something wrong somewhere so we'll have him out on Monday. +But he said the balance correct and I can't get it correct with what you've got in your book. +What? +And what do you say it is? +I make it the +Cos I've got not as much as it +No +er +it's more. +It's forty one more in your book and loans, than she does according to that book. +Well how much does your say? +Eh? +How much is yours then? +I mean all I can do is when Dave gives me money write it in here that's all I +Yes. +can do. +That's all she does. +And I check it after her. +And I write in here. +Yeah, but how much, how much did you have there altogether? +According to that about hundred and fifty quid in all. +What? +According to what? +In that. +No. +Hundred and forty three. +How else ? +See the this th the there's got to be summat wrong. +But if you, if you add all them up, and then add up all what there is in there there's summat wrong. +Mm. +What, what balance is it in, on that bit of paper Dave? +Got last week's payment out of here? +Thirty six ninety eight I've got. +Oh! +Who's this? +Mm mm. +Thirty eight thirty six +Tracey? +thirty six ninety eight on dock. +And Linda. +Mm. +Forget Linda. +Yeah but ow! +No one paid me last week. +They get +Tracey and, and Linda. +No. +One of them didn't. +No, one of them paid you didn't +No. +she? +Oh! +Just Linda? +had the book. +Just Linda? +Right. +Tracey! +Ju jus jus jus ju I'll tell yo +Tracey +I'll tell you what +Look! +Dave! +Dave! +Yeah but what you got on dock for Tracey? +Thirty five ninety eight. +Well there's thirty six ninety eight on this. +Yeah. +Exactly! +Right! +Right! +What you got, what you got on er +Look shut up! +Just let me explain! +What you got on er +Ha! +Look! +loans? +Look! +Just pu just tell me what you've got +Well +on loans! +Dave I'm just trying to tell you! +Right! +You know the two pound what +I know that. +What you got on +What er +what you got on loans for her? +What Linda paid last week. +What you got for her? +You know the two pound what Linda +Yeah. +paid me last week, that went onto Tracey's. +No it didn't. +It did! +Because I've just had a look here. +It shouldn't have. +It shouldn't have. +Yeah! +But I mean +What you got on loan +Do I ever know who's whose in these this house here? +Yeah! +Course you do! +Well you marked it in Linda's book! +Didn't mark it. +You marked it in in Linda's book. +I know! +But, on here I've marked it on Tracey's +What you got for Tracey on loans? +So you got a two pound transfer? +And what you got on Tracey on loans? +Off Tracey's onto Linda's? +Eh? +What you got for Tracey on loans? +Hundred and eight pounds eighty five. +Then that's wrong here. +How much is that, hundred and seven? +Hundred and nine. +Yeah! +Yeah! +This is what I'm just saying Dave! +Right. +But if I added +The two pound +if I add these up,th th there's, they're, they're, they're different again. +That is right, that's docks. +Yeah. +That's right. +But when yo when, when you come onto these +See! +oh that's Graham's. +Don't know how to do we? +Don't let him tell him does he? +Are you up and paid +Yeah. +for these? +Exactly! +The two pound what was given so I'll ask them to transfer that onto your whose ever book next week +I mean, if I add all them up right? +What? +I add all them up. +Yeah. +Whose is this one? +Tracey's. +Right. +Add that up. +Then add the two together it didn't tally with that. +No. +But can I ask you something? +Can I take Linda's book in to have the total? +Get your book. +See I've there's two pounds +I've cleared that. +Cos I never o know who's who in here! +So how much is it altogether? +Well all it is, all it matters with me +Hundred and forty quid according to that innit? +all it is with me +Yeah. +I mean, he's paid me two pound, right, last week +But that was +cos that were +well, didn't it? +Didn't you? +You +Well I +paid me two pounds. +and one o +Yeah. +I paid you. +Well I've put it onto Tracey's. +Okay. +It should be just under a hundred pound. +Er, there were two pound payment put through +Wanna get that +the, the +video? +er and all it wants is doing is transferring off. +What are you looking for Tracey? +No. +It's over there. +All they'll do is put a local transfer erm, thing in. +So it sho still should only be the two pound out. +I put it in the back of the red thing. +But what i should actual fact be, one should be owing two pound more than what it says and the other one should be owing two pound less. +Yeah but Sue got it Sue got all the tried er everything I could to, to get it to to tally. +Linda. +Yeah. +And then +Hundred and one I think. +Hundred and eleven. +Eh? +Don't know what it should be. +Er +Hundred and forty six on this. +What? +On whose? +Tracey's. +According to this lot. +I haven't checked, no you've just said Linda before. +No,bu er on Tracey's together, is hundred and forty six, forty three +Oh no! +on this. +How much? +Hundred and forty six eighty three. +Hundred and forty four eighty three. +But then I put two pounds, which should have been off Linda's. +Cos you didn't pay me owt off +You can have that. +I should have real ah? +You can have that. +I should have realized when I'd taken Tracey's book in. +Right. +I'd put it just down here, I marked it down here when I were here last last week. +I marked it as Tracey's but I were taking Tracey's book in weren't I? +So I +So I +picked Tracey's book up. +get a letter from the girl there then. +Mm. +Yeah I know. +What about? +To say I haven't paid, but I have! +Well no you'll not get, cos I'll take this in and say, look, can you just transfer two pound off Linda's onto this. +I mean, all it, all it means +Off of Tracey's onto there. +Yeah. +All it means to me is one owes two pound more than other one. +No, no it +but if +it'd be, it'd be understandable if we were identical twins but we're not! +But we're not! +Yeah but I mean I don't +I just you're just names to me, do you know what I, I mean, I still don't know who, which one you are, now even though you said. +Who are you? +Linda ! +Eh? +She's Linda. +Yeah, I know. +But I mean +That's Tracey, this is Linda. +I dunno, I always think that one is Linda and that one's +She's e she's Ivy's daughter. +I know. +Yes! +And that one's Ivy's daughter! +I know! +But i if you put yourself in my position and all you do is call +God forbid it if ever I put myself in your position! +No but +You know what I mean ! +God almighty! +Yes. +Have you got Tracey's middle name on there? +On their books? +Tracey Anne? +Yeah. +Then you can't get really stuck can you? +Yeah, but I still don't know who Tracey Anne is there! +That one's +You don't +Linda now. +Yeah. +Yeah. +Mine's just plain Linda. +I'll try and remember. +Ah? +Hers is just plain Linda. +When we get some money we'll get name tags! +Yeah. +Linda, Tracey's got a middle name. +And Linda ain't. +And I'm blonder +Yeah but +she's blacker. +but to me. +Yeah. +Dark hair. +Tracey hasn't +Well I just know that Tracey and Linda and I don't know who's Tracey and Linda. +You know who Brian and David is? +Yeah, because they're I dunno. +Brian ! +No, I know, I don't mean owt, owt wrong but I just can't remember these two names, I don't know why, there's something I've never been able to, cos I've always said to you ain't I? +Margaret don't punish yourself! +Even these two get mixed up with us. +I know. +Yeah. +Yeah. +But it's very, very +I ain't sometimes I check and ask Tracey for Linda. +I don't know why it is but probably because they're always together. +I think this is what it is. +And, I mean, even when I say make a cup of tea +Who are you now? +I'll even ask them! +Don't I? +It's because a there's summat. +I don't know why! +But I'll get yo that two quid transferred. +Would you get mixed up with her? +Oh chuff me! +That's, I bet that's some sports thing. +It's a load of shite that paper! +To be perfectly honest! +Yeah, I'll get you your two pounds knocked off o er +From Linda. +Tracey's onto Linda. +Listening Linda? +Yeah I'll cha +Yeah I, no I know, I know where I got it. +And I'll just put a note in. +But I mean, that were a simple mista I mean you made a payment of two quid didn't you? +Yeah that saves you making a payment don't it? +No, well I mean, it weren't as though I hadn't put a payment in it were just that it probably was this taking Tracey's book and I marked it onto Tracey's, er, Tracey's book. +Here he goes look! +And +How do you know? +Eh? +But that will be in together or not? +Do you think you can get me something didn't he? +Must be in there. +I mean I have put a payment in,i it's not as though I didn't, I mean that was quite easy mistake to make, to me. +But erm I mean, I don't know about other. +Cos normally they both pay anyway don't you? +I think I might have to er change the wallpaper. +Oh! +Don't you Dave? +Who'll come out? +Mike. +Ah? +When did you pay in? +Last Wednesday. +Last Wednesday? +No, he's +Eh? +been on holiday this week. +No! +Last week +Week la +week past. +week last Wednesday. +He said to Tracey, are you not paying? +were they? +I said, what have you come for? +He said is Tracey in? +I said, yeah. +What do you want her for? +He said can I have a word with her? +Don't worry about me! +I said no. +Mother! +Dad. +Don't worry about me! +No. +And he said, is Tracey in the kitchen? +Yeah but he's probably done tha knows who's anyway ! +I mean, I doubt if he'll know who's Brian and who's Dave to be perfectly honest. +Well, there you are then. +Eh? +off me. +That's why they're always going up to him. +Mind you, he and Uncle Brian they are identical twins people can find out who they are but, well they can't find out who we are can they? +Don't think it matters at work. +Oh your tea's here. +Yeah. +you can make make it right next time with Tracey's and Linda's anyway, if they hadn't done it in office because I can put two pound what Tracey paid onto Linda's anyway, it'll still balance it out won't it? +Do you know +No. +what I mean? +No! +It will, yeah! +No cos Ta Linda'll be a way behind then. +No. +Er say, I mean they normally give me three pounds don't they? +It's, it's, it's, it's th th the mix up has come on, in that book it's +Yeah. +not on their cards. +Oh no, it's not on the cards. +But +I'll pay as the erm +Well I'll tell you summat +No that that were my mistake that. +I'm not having owt to do with this! +No that were my mistake, which er, is a genuine mistake, I mean sh you paid me two quid, as I say, I don't know who's whose now +And then you +that was Linda now. +Tracey didn't pay that did she? +No. +Tracey didn't pay. +But I took Li Tracey's book in and probably I've seen the Tracey and marked it down there you see on Tracey's instead of Linda's, which, I mean that's a genuine mistake int it? +Well, who put that +Well he doesn't +on card? +Ha? +parcels haven't been marked. +What's that? +Er, woman that he were to go to Mr . +a woman? +Mm. +Where? +Him who er were getting engaged to? +Called David, I think they call him. +Mm. +Or is that guy from +He lived down Station Road. +Ah! +Station Road, course he lived +Yeah. +down Station Road. +He used to baby-sit for her. +Oh! +We heard today they were supposed to have been getting engaged to er a seventy year old woman! +Who? +Ernie? +Mm. +No, Gwen. +Don't live round that though. +No, she +No she li lives at er +Doncaster way. +She don't live at Doncaster! +She's supposed to live down Station Road in Hatfield. +That one he's supposed to be engaged lives her sister. +Mm. +No, that we that were one of them. +That's it! +That were one of them. +No, the other one who's, who's supposed to have a +That's her! +a son called David. +That one what's got the car? +He used to go babysitting for her. +Do you want a nut, anybody? +Nut's, no. +Ernie's just bought +Let's have a nut then. +Ernie bought her a car. +She hadn't got one +He's supposed to have been a with Provincial. +Who? +Ernie. +Well they're an insurance company aren't they? +And he's supposed to have got four thousand pound from them. +Two lots of two thousand pound. +And the solicitor wants to know where it is. +He wants every single penny accounted for before he starts doing anything. +But she's that we +He had er, fourteen and a half thousand pound once in a building society four year ago there's nine hundred pound left in his bu er, building society account! +They want to know where that is. +She, +The solicitor, nobody else, just the solicitor. +Er he's got some insurance policies one's for eleven hundred pound right? +And they're gonna pay that. +And that's gotta go straight direct to the solicitor. +Also, he's supposed to have had an insurance policies but General Accident said it's only for a year and he took it out in seventy seven to nineteen seventy eight. +But he's still got the policy life insurance on it. +He was insured with the Co-op. +He was insured with the Co-op. +Oh that were a that'll be bound to come. +So that's +I don't know. +Yeah, he won't pay Mrs insurance money out yet will he? +No, he, he, he, he's gotta pay it to the solicitor. +It all gotta go to them? +It's all got to go to solicitor. +And that fourteen thousand five hundred pound every single penny's got to be accounted for. +Well who's gonna know about that then? +The bank. +Building society he put it in. +The solicitors who gave him the court order for them to release all the details on that. +And even that car he bought the +Who? +the solicitor can take it off him +The solicitor wants to know why +And he'd bought a car had he? +Yeah. +For a boy. +Bought a car for a boy. +Who's, the one who's supposed to have been getting engaged to son, and they call him David. +No! +He weren't engaged to her, she's a married woman. +He used to go babysitting for her. +He used to go babysitting, he's bought her a ring and everything. +Yeah! +But she's got a husband. +That one's he's supposed to be getting married to live at Wellingdon +And she's seventy year old er and +Yeah! +She's actually Mrs 's sister. +I don't know. +It's all mixed up and jumbled. +I dunno. +I'm not bothered. +Fog's coming in. +He lives at Bath though. +I don't know. +Honestly I don't know, I mean +Who's he reckoned to be? +Roxy Music. +And he works at the ? +Oh stop analyzing! +All I know is Cyril's got his bird that's all I know! +Ha! +Well they had a they've had a bill for er bird seed +Where from? +Don't know. +From some from somewhere three days after he died! +Well I don't know where it were from because Ernie used to get his seed from our shop. +In Staythorpe. +Yeah. +And it weren't Brian that sent it. +Well he's got it, he's, he's got his, he's got erm a bill and the solicitor has told him that under no circumstances must I pay it. +Don't pay it! +Under no circumstances must I pay it! +Yeah I know! +Well I don't think you're daft enough! +They must be nice them nuts. +Dad! +He's eating them! +It's alright, it's still going. +Are you switched it off? +Yeah. +dark. +Yeah. +What? +Dark. +It's for Linda. +I'll let you read it in a minute. +If I can find it. +Now stop it! +Dad! +No you don't! +You'll have to put it down soon madam! +Is the heating on? +I don't think i I don't think I could wear a dress like that! +Probably cos it's all the peanuts you had! +Ah! +Don't be cruel! +What's this for? +Market research. +Then you get . +I'm recording you on that tape machine I think. +It's for erm tt everyday conversation. +Everyday's conversation. +What, me and your dad shouting at each other! +Yeah. +Eh! +I might well have got that onto another tape and then every time she says something you just say look what you're doing ! +That'll do! +No more now. +No more! +Come off it Dave! +Come off it! +Well that's not really working. +What? +Margaret's not in the . +I wonder if Terence'll come today, do that outside wall. +Yeah. +They've got to fill it up a bit. +Get your feet off your ask her for it then! +Ask her! +Ask her! +Hang on! +Do you know how much these are a bag? +No. +Really foggy! +Dunno. +He's not bothered as long as eats them! +It int half coming in! +Do you know how much? +Sixty five pence! +Six ? +So Margaret we all enjoyed eating them! +About another hour and you'll not be able to see Corky's fence. +I'll be glad when our Brighton's off. +Here! +Be entrusted to get him on time. +Er do you want some advice? +What? +Get done as quick as you can. +I've only got two more to do. +Yeah. +It's coming in look. +Christ! +Every time Margaret then moves in well, here goes ! +Oh aye. +Yeah, you're done. +He wants to get in there. +What he nor what he normally does is he, he grabs it off of you, and go run away with it. +And you,cos there ain't one in +Yeah. +there. +Cos he want more and more and more. +I'm just but he needs it. +That's enough. +Every week. +Every, he wouldn't eat them. +He would! +He likes them. +They're quite er moreish . +Don't give him no more Margaret. +He like nuts and raisins as well don't you Timmy? +He, no he won't be. +Plenty of salt in, in them. +Yeah but don't give him no more. +Why? +He's had enough now. +Come on! +Eh! +Eh! +Timmy! +And he'll be straight in, they'll be blowing him, and blowing him up! +Aye. +That's enough now. +That's enough! +Tha eh! +Eh! +Come here! +It's Margaret, having trouble with it! +That's enough now! +You know, come on! +He ate, he ate salty nuts as well didn't he? +Now you know . +That's enough now! +Ah! +Ah! +I wouldn't,no not you. +No! +Erm, Timmy! +No! +Eh, this, +Don't growl at me! +Ask her! +You're not having no more! +Tim! +Come on then! +Ask her! +Nah! +Aargh! +Aargh! +Aargh! +Ow! +That's a good, +He's a hungry little dog Margaret ain't he? +Mm. +I said no +No! +more! +He said +bull! +I said no more to you! +Ask her then! +Ask her for what? +He went, he'd been a, he'd been . +He's asking you? +He's asking you now! +He asking you! +He asks. +Er, there's Marion going to work on bus gets to outside my dad's club crash! +Back of bus. +I jumped out my skin nearly! +Er, summat had ran into back of bus, I don't know what it'd done to, whatever behind us but it didn't hurt bus. +No, it's got a great big steel girder at the back! +Eh! +Out! +You! +! +We've nearly had Margaret's nuts. +I bought them just for the bag though. +Have they got salt on? +No. +They're just brazil nuts. +That's it now! +No more! +And you don't have any choice. +Well what had hit bus? +Don't know. +I didn't get out to see. +Did driver get out? +Mm. +You could have just turned round and had a look. +You were fit to weren't you? +Somebody had bumped into Craig's car. +Where, in Scotland? +No! +Coming out of his road end. +And he said, come out of his driveway, turning into Rosebury and somebody forgot to stop! +Coming out of Rosebury straight into his side of car! +Serve him right! +The insurance, insurance will pay for that won't they? +I heard this one. +Just give him a dead eye. +Hey! +Hey! +Oh +That's enough! +Tim! +? +Yeah. +You! +Get and get leathers! +I know he went mad up town. +Go and get +You get leathers! +Leave him! +Come here. +Go and off Margaret, go on. +They say they don't like this, used to like nuts. +You're not too fussy are you? +They let him come and he won't get any biscuits. +All gone now. +All gone now. +All gone now Tim. +All gone now. +She ain't got any more now. +You've damn well eaten all my nuts! +He wants your . +Do you? +You can't have a cigarette. +. +Pardon me! +I burped. +Are you not at work yet? +Monday. +Monday. +Monday. +But +Well that's bad innit? +He's had tonsillitis! +Oh! +He were poorly when I seen him. +I know. +How am I supposed to stay in? +Look at it! +Eh? +Oh aye! +You're supposed to stay in if you go if you suffer with asthma or +I know. +owt like that. +Ooh it is coming in now! +Can't see them trees up there now look. +Oh no! +We've had enough people ! +Ah? +We've already had one of those. +We've already one ain't we Dave? +It were useless! +You got some ? +I know I've got some Tunes that are good. +Sweeties Timmy! +Here. +Our Neil has them. +Eh? +Our Neil. +I like Pot Noodle, but I don't like that sa rubbish! +Eh? +I like Pot Noodles, but I don't like that rubbish! +What, sweet and sour? +Chicken. +It's sweet and sour. +I hate chicken! +She always looks, she doesn't use this erm +No! +No, give me one of them. +Cos he'll be jumping all over it! +Rolling all over it. +I shall have a Tune and get on my way! +I shall play my tune! +Oh don't, we don't want the weather . +You won't,and all. +No! +If my number's up, my number's up! +No. +Margaret when you go and,last week when you out of here. +It were . +Yeah but it were down now Monday. +Oh! +It was around here! +Hampton Road. +Ooh er! +I don't know. +There were a couple of ambulan ah +Ambulance and er, paramedics. +Yeah. +Somebody said a kid got knocked down. +It weren't on Broadway itself. +It turned down one of side streets. +And, I nearly got up to Beachfield cos Carole said ooh it looks as though it's going down Hampton! +And I never ca I couldn't catch it up. +God! +It went full belt didn't it Dave? +Yeah. +Ah? +down there. +Well apparently there's an old man down there +Who got asthma. +that's got asthma, and he often goes into or dia he's a ba diabetic or summat and goes into comas. +She told me his name, I don't know. +And you know erm Hilary ? +You know George , that used to do fridges? +I dunno. +There were Gill that, Gillian, Hilary, and Lynn three lasses with long hair at school? +Come off Grange. +Gi er Gillian's got right blonde hair. +But they all had plaits right long hair, all of them. +I know Trevor used to see them. +No. +Wi Willie , that's all I know. +No they we who got into trouble ? +Yeah. +No. +Were they cousins or summat? +No. +Well er she, she works at Midland Bank in ta in Thorne. +She's about thirty eight maybe. +Oh! +I've seen her. +If I remember rightly +Call her Hilary, she's darker now. +She lives on Menson Drive. +Her husband's just collapsed and died! +Forty one! +Oh he looks nice don't he? +Who? +Purple Rain. +Ya? +Do you not know who I mean? +No. +I think I know cos I se I think there is a, a, a, erm er +Eh! +That bungalow is erm, empty where your mam, next door to your where mama used to live. +It is empty. +They're knocking down . +An old man and woman lived there didn't they? +Yeah. +Who had a garage built onto the side. +Mm. +And er, the last time I saw them they had a Morris Minor a gol Morri er a blue Morris +A blue one. +Minor car. +Cos he er, +Does Mr still live there down there? +Do you know who I mean? +No. +Dan ? +Don't know. +Don't know who you mean. +Where your mum lived he just lived down the corner. +I didn't know any of them. +I didn't even know them who, who lived next door to her at the side of . +All I knew is my mother talked about her that's all, and she, she, my mother knew her but, I didn't. +I didn't, +Who the hell's that? +Prince. +Prince. +He looks nice though don't he Margaret? +I don't know. +Not as good as Michael Jackson is he? +You reckon he's any good? +He's rubbish! +Oh a brilliant dancer! +He isn't! +Oh! +Ooh he is! +He's just , you love doing it! +On er +Oh! +Barrymore +Barrymore. +Did you see that young lad? +Yeah. +I thought he were brilliant that little lad! +before Michael Jackson did. +More practical him living +Well he won't go short of a of his erm, tt thingie will he? +No. +Oh yeah! +No I don't like him. +I do. +He's tries to look like Michael Jackson don't he? +Well he di he did a video a and it's a wonder it weren't banned! +Who? +Prince. +Oh the thing wi +With his trousers ? +Did he? +Oh yeah! +I've seen one oh it might have been Michael Jackson +Michael Jackson. +having it off with +Sheena Easton? +Nah! +Having it off with Michael's, er Michael's . +Oh dear! +Why, didn't you see it? +Right I'm going. +Are you? +Yes. +Yes. +Right. +Byes ee bye! +See you! +Yeah. +Come on, what's wrong with it? +Well it's a good letter but your spelling mistake. +Ha! +What you should do is erm +The spelling mistakes only occurred when I was shouted. +Yeah. +Don't worry! +I'll put it right. +Well do it at work then if you make a mistake just ru ru rub it out. +We're not, we'll not be allowed to. +How do you know? +Mhm. +Well do it when erm Pam's not there. +That's an idea! +Do it on Wednesday. +Mm. +No, Thursday. +At work. +Friday. +Why Friday? +No I can't do it Friday cos I wanna send it off Friday. +I'm hoping to get a reply +Mind you , we won't be going up into, up into to thing until later. +Will we? +Yes, but I want to send it from town. +You know, er, we finish work go into the post office and get the reply stamp from there and stamp it and post it +Mm mm. +and it goes from town then. +Quicker! +Mhm. +Cos it'll go into the sorting office and straight +Yeah. +But then again, I suppose I could do it without the though. +Yeah, well you could but mind you, you'll have to do it anyway. +Mind you, you could leave it till Monday, next Monday and post it. +No I want to get it off as soon as I can. +Don't forget it's in April. +And then not long +it's not long till April, then we've gotta gotta get visas and everything. +Work permits. +Mm mm. +And erm green card. +Green card. +The backing. +The backing. +Mhm. +The packing. +The packing, the backing ! +The persuading! +The wardrobe. +We gotta +Wardrobe. +have new wardrobes. +We'll want a complete new wardrobe. +By the time we get there it should should be warmed up in April. +Oh I hope so. +It's freezing over here! +Mm mm. +So we +Got to get the connection. +Make er, we'll have to make a list out. +And then we've gotta get phone numbers. +The +Yeah. +international dialling codes. +But first you've got to get permission. +Permission? +Permission. +Oh! +So we'll have to write to erm we'll have to write to the erm +Yeah, I know where you can write to, yeah. +Yeah. +Gotta get permission from there and then passports. +That's the important part ! +Passports, visas and and all this lot. +Yeah. +And erm I've got to have my hair done. +Your face done! +With a bit of plastic surgery here and there this you know! +Plastic surgery. +Don't need plastic surgery. +I'm a perfectly beautiful plastic surgery is not needed. +But in your case it's well needed. +Yeah ! +Oh! +Tt. +Oh! +But first, we've got to finish work. +Mhm. +It really gave, gives erm jabber jaws something to talk about wouldn't it? +Jaws three! +Well it could give her something to talk about but she'll be more worried office experience and how old she is, and all this lot! +Ah! +There's something very, very important that you forgot to say. +What? +And you got your hair done, and you got wardrobe and then you got all this lot and that there's one other thing. +What? +You've got to get one very special on your side . +I said that! +Make arrangements, and get people on your side. +Well you said that. +Oh yeah! +And I thought of something else as well. +And besides, if it's all rigged like they say you do it'll already be arranged for us. +Music! +We need the music. +Ah! +No wait. +Well sort that out, later. +Mm. +The jewellery. +I want jewellery! +I would think of erm having er pearl necklace. +So that I can take it off and if she gets in my way you can smack her with it! +Oh no! +Diamonds. +A thick diamond will do that better. +Cos you see it cuts. +Mm mm. +And she needs her face rearranging. +She needs everything rearranging. +Well mind you, what you could really do is just erm, sort of erm have a hammer necklace. +Hammer? +Hammer necklace. +Say it's, new fashion jewellery and every time she gets out of hand just bash her one! +Mm mm! +That's an idea ! +Yeah, well I'm brainy. +I come up with all these ideas! +There's something else we have to arrange. +What? +Where to stay. +Well +If you're thinking what I'm thinking you better think again! +Alright, I'll think again. +We'll have to stay in an hotel. +Of course you could stay in an hotel! +Oh! +Now which one can we stay in? +So many to choose from! +Yeah but it's , is, you don't know where you're going first. +Hilton. +Er yeah bu Hilton, yeah! +But where is the Hilton? +You know, I'm not sort of er +And we've never to so we don't know. +No. +Ah! +It's Hollywood. +It would be expensive over there, Hollywood! +Well I don't really want to go to Hollywood. +Yo well you'll have to if that's, if you're touring. +Yeah. +Maybe. +And don't forget +Mind you, there's people you'd miss over here. +Yeah. +Family. +Friends. +What friends? +Tell you there's one person I wouldn't miss. +Who's that then? +Jane. +I don't think Jane'd miss Jane ! +I don't think Jane can see Jane. +So we're really going to do it then? +We're really going to take +If +the plunge? +Probably, yeah. +If we get accepted. +Yeah. +Be exciting! +Very! +And think of all the publicity. +Mm mm! +Getting recognised in the street! +Er probably. +The big welcome home we'd get if we came over here. +Especially if we came to Sheffield. +If we were there. +Yeah! +Home, a sort of home ground as it were. +Mm mm. +We'd be Bryan Adams. +The attendants! +Nobody could be Bryan Adams! +But Bryan Adams could. +Well oh yeah! +Mm. +So but there's one thing ambition and it's to smash that silly cow in the face! +B I C T I will personally do +Well le ge well why don't we just use both fists? +We could sort her out together. +But you're forgetting one thing. +Double +You're forgetting one thing. +What? +She wants what I wanted. +Please! +Don't ever tell anybody you fancy Like I was saying, don't ever say you liked him! +If you tell anybody +Well you did once. +if you tell anybody I will deny you are my sister! +I will deny everything! +Deny everything. +But it's true, I did like him. +But honestly don't know what you see in him. +Dunno what anybody can see in him! +He is awful! +I noticed that when the camera +got onto him ! +You know that he is, you know what they say cameras pick up things. +I've been on camera. +I'm going to be on camera. +I've been on camera and it is nerve-wracking! +Even if it was in front of the school it was nerve-wracking. +Cos I made +There's one thing I don't like and that's having my photo taken. +And it will be hard when we have to photos +Photo sessions! +And just think of all those cra cameras! +I know. +I always crack the mirrors I look in! +And all them people saying ah! +She's beautiful! +But she's not. +Well I mean but +In her own way ! +Well put it this way +Go on then. +a dog's better looking than she is so you're in with a chance! +Well she's just called Sherry. +And don't forget, our dog used to be called Sherry! +That's another thing I'm gonna get her on! +Mm. +Oh! +We had a dog once called Sherry! +Mm. +Yeah, as long as I look like her. +Ah don't! +But she was better looking than you! +Ah don't! +I like Sherry! +I have just insulted of the dog world. +Yes you have. +I apologize. +Thank you very much. +Why are you accepted ? +Don't forget, our brothers are dogs! +And er +we've got a little dog. +A little pooch. +Little pooch! +He's so cute! +Ah! +Sleepy. +So Yeah . +So you got +I think, I think maybe I would refuse to go, if I go in front of a T V camera. +Especially if we were doing an interview. +Ah! +And don't forget the talk shows we'd be on! +Ah no! +Do you think we could do you think we could forget about this plan of ours for stardom? +I know I'd, I know I would freeze. +I'm not doing it for stardom. +We could make movies! +No thank you. +You're right though that's when I would freeze. +Starring role with Tom short Cruise. +Bloody hell! +No way! +He's too horrible. +Mind you co could be even worser +What could be even worse? +Acting with Tom Cruise. +What could be even worse than that? +Acting with Dolf Lundgren! +Oh! +Gees! +Sylvester Stallone? +You're getting worser! +Arnold Schwarzanegger? +Ooh! +No. +? +Or, Macauley Calkin? +Now I wouldn't mind that. +Macauley Calkin. +He'd teach you a few tricks! +Yeah. +I could boss him around because he's only young! +You could boss him around. +Yes. +But I don't think I'm big. +Mm mm. +Look in the mirror? +Oh very funny! +Well if you think that then you go on your own! +Wherever you want! +Oh no! +Don't want to do it on my own. +Well just leave me and stop ma teasing me then! +I'll stop teasing you. +Promise? +Promise. +Really, really promise? +Really, really promise. +Oh! +Alright then. +Cor! +I sound like the cheese advert don't I? +Oh! +Alright then! +There's one difference in the you won't be kissing erm +Veroni Veronica Dribblethwaite! +Or her! +Do you know, you know when we're talking about moving to America and +Mm. +be in films, well I'm very nervous , we haven't, we haven't even been accepted yet. +America, yes. +Canada . +I wanna try white water rapids. +Ah! +You don't? +I do! +I don't know why. +It looks interesting. +It may sound interesting but it's very dangerous. +Don't forget there's all those rocks and the water is cold. +Alright then, I'll send Sherry down there. +I'd rather throw her off the Empire State Building! +One better take her parachute jumping and forgo forget to give her the parachute. +That's even better. +Mind you you don't want the ground splattered with horrible things like that though. +No. +So that sleep on it. +Yeah. +Well I'm gonna think about what I'm gonna put in that letter. +Mm. +I think it could do with changing. +Mind you my new wardrobe would be bright colours. +So would mine. +And not dull colours. +No, not dull. +Not brown horrible shirts! +I think I might change my hair colour as well every week! +Oh no! +Not dyed, wigs. +You know, one week go out with red the next week go out with pink, pink, bright pink or even blonde. +Don't you dare! +No I won't. +You can go out with any other colour hairstyle, any other colour hair you want, but don't you dare go out with blonde! +No. +I won't go out with blonde. +Cos everybody'd be thinking you were me. +Mind you, does it matter? +Everybody says we're the same anyway! +Yeah. +Well I'll erm think about it. +I'll tell you what after we've sorted her out we'll sort it out. +Him! +Who thinks he's erm +It! +The right word for him! +Oh I hate that name anyway. +It'd be a daft name to live with anyway for the rest of your life! +Mm. +Now, who'd want to be called Ellen? +Ellen? +Yeah. +Sounds like lemon! +Shortened! +But +Urgh! +No way! +Well there's one really name I'd like to be called and no, it's not, it doesn't begin with A. +I wasn't gonna say +A. +A a Er I won't say it . +Mm. +Better not do! +I won't say it. +Right. +I know I would get a bit excited if if I was on T V. +Lyndsey. +Lyndsey. +Especially Lyndsey. +James and James. +D'ya know for kids, they're the only kids that can show, that can make me go bright red! +Yeah. +I know what Lyndsey had wanted to do. +Autograph of a favourite record. +I wouldn't be meeting the wrestlers though. +You might be meeting er, the wrestlers but I won't. +Why, what will you be doing? +Oh I'll think of something! +Something cheery and nice. +Well if you're on the same bill as him, well could always just ask him. +Or even take her over. +No, ask her over. +No. +Oh no because she'd tell everybody you were used to be in with prat face, prat face ! +I don't think I can do that. +Do that sheet properly at work. +What sheet? +That what she gave us to do. +Oh you mean on the erm +Background . +background . +We are making +Yes. +That one. +I'm dreading this term when that assessor +Assessor. +comes in! +You're not the only one! +She scared me witless when she said that on Thursday about coming in +Assessor. +but he, no one 's expecting him and . +Yeah but he does,sh you don't. +You get told in advance. +That's alright then. +Didn't you hear her on Friday when she talked to us? +When oh yeah! +Yeah I remember that. +What she says was is erm +I think I'll try to do put some more to this letter. +What she said was last time the assessor came in +Mm. +they thought he only wanted to see two people. +He's gonna change his mind and +No. +Three. +What, what they thought is that all the ones that +He tells, he tells us tha that he's going to see two +No! +but when he gets +It's not like that, no! +What they thought is because he's assessing them and she's, they're assessing us while he's assessing them. +If you know what I mean? +Alright! +Now, they thought it was only gonna be two because there's only two assessing people, right? +Yeah. +But it turned out to be three and she was put in this an awkward position and she doesn't know what to do, the poor girl who got picked! +Mm. +They a they'll have the other two, they got told in advance but this one, she never. +And that's all that happened. +But she says you do,sh that you do get told. +But I'm taking no exam! +The R S A One exam! +Oh I know! +Oh! +Mind you if you say it's doing,yo er, started erm writing to somebody you really like and you've gotta get it perfect. +Mm. +Well that'll be that'll, that will really be hard won't it? +Why? +I don't know. +Did she say you can use a dictionary? +Yeah. +Well that'll be da that's daft in your case! +Why is it? +Cos you ask me how to spell them! +Only because I can't be bothered to look in the dictionary sometimes. +Ho! +No? +How long have we got till July? +February, March, April, May, June, July. +Not long! +Six months till July. +Well it isn't long when you're in the old . +That's five now. +Well I'm not counting this month. +But it is really six though int it? +Cos it's the beginning of the month. +Oh! +Seems like a lifetime! +Doesn't it? +Seems it, but it's not. +Half a year. +I'll tell you what I'm gonna get +What? +that leather outfit. +Mm. +It is nice. +No leave it. +I don't you know I might get one myself. +And I want outfits to have the skirts and the jackets. +Yeah. +Mind you, I don't like the top that goes with it. +You know, what she were wearing in the book? +Yeah. +Don't like that. +Yeah. +It was gi the wrong kind of top. +But the skirt and the jacket were alright. +Yeah. +But I don't li like leather. +No. +It looks awful white! +Now black. +Yeah, but not white. +I think you look weird in whi white leather, people! +What you doing? +Looking for a word. +What kind of word? +One that I thought wrong but I think I've got it right. +Replied? +Mhm. +Doesn't Mm, I've forgotten how to spell it now! +R E P L Y . +I E D . +Yeah. +I think. +Is it? +I E D ? +Correct. +Oh I did leave my I out. +Yes! +Sorry! +Do you wear high heels or flat shoes? +Fairly high. +How big is fairly high? +Two inches? +Three? +Three's too high for me. +Or, two and a half. +Well it ain't bad though. +Well there's only two mistakes in it Linda. +Yeah but I haven't really looked at it properly, so +No. +The mistakes are there in the words +Well when I, when I re-do it I'll write it out as I type it and I'll let you see it. +Okay. +First. +Can I see the other one? +That you won't let me see! +No! +Why not! +I said not! +Great! +So if I wrote a letter and wouldn't let you see it, how would you feel? +I wouldn't feel anything cos I'm not really bothered! +What if it's about you as well? +Well if you write something about me you write something about me! +And if I don't let you see it, I'm dead? +Yeah. +You're clever! +Very, very clever! +Well you think you are! +Well, if you think, you think! +Do you know that's ? +Is it? +Well I've not too bothered if you found everything. +No. +Who? +As long as you got on well. +Really get into rather than I wouldn't take all that much notice of it. +Would you? +No. +It's funny, in a bit, in a way. +Yeah. +Yo yo it was sort of like he got he got hit on the got run over +Knocked down. +Oh! +Didn't get run over. +Run over, he actually went down though. +So do you still want ? +He's, he's dead! +You di you didn't really expect him er the way they did it, it wasn't like well you didn't believe he was an angel did you? +Really? +Until the end. +I didn't think he was anyway! +No I didn't. +Until the end. +That's what got me. +Mind you the title was a bit funny because it didn't Almost an Angel but if he died and he went to heaven, then he must have been an angel but came back down, he's still an angel. +Yeah, but an angel on probation, don't forget. +Oh the funniest part about it was when he set these people's thing . +round and round without knowing. +Yeah. +With his sha electric shaver. +Oh! +Was it his electric shaver? +Yeah. +Mm. +But with no battery. +I don't know. +I suppose that it was filmed where it was so that she'll be in it. +Probably. +She's his wife int she? +Mm mm. +Mind you Don Johnson and Melanie Griffi Griffith are alright, are man and wife but they're not in every film together are they? +No. +Mind you, Tom Cruise is. +Yeah. +I know he's married his wife's supposed to be in all his films int she? +She can't act! +I know. +She cannot act! +I don't think marrying the husband's gonna do much good. +Mm. +I'd like to hear her voice though, she's supposed to be speaking Iri Irish but I'd like to hear her voice. +Australian, American,Irish accent ! +Yeah. +Bit of everything. +Mind you, we can't act either. +No. +Now the best film I've ever seen him in is when he gets killed at the end! +Or, even better at the beginning! +The beginning's much better! +Mm. +We can hardly speak . +No. +Can't help. +Mind you, his movie career is going downhill a bit. +Yeah. +He's Born on the Fourth of July. +Started going down. +Yeah. +Well, anybody could see that the stupid bu er the way they've he was made up to look like a forty year old and he still looked like a twenty year old! +Yeah. +And nobody can imagine him like that in twenty years time. +Was Born on the Fourth of July after Top Gun? +I don't know. +Or was it after Cocktail? +I think it was after Cocktail. +No, it were before! +It weren't, it was after! +It were after. +Now Cocktail would have been a, been a bit dull if he hadn't have been in it! +Yep. +Still like it when she's in Babysitting . +That's a good film. +Mind you don't mind going i in the mornings to work but in the middle of the day +No. +Don't think you +No, but if you go in the middle you've got a chance to wake up. +Well I prefer to be in the mornings so +You have to get early don't you? +Well you do anyway so it don't really matter. +But you've got some time to wake up haven't you? +Proba yeah but well we haven't got all that long to go now. +November. +Mm. +Never know, you might have a full time job by then. +Yeah. +No but +We might even be in America before then. +Well maybe, if only! +But, next year will be fine. +It'll be alright by me. +And when would you like to make debut then? +Oh! +Next year probably. +What about this year? +While the fuel's still hot. +Probably this year. +Because I am I am beginning to think maybe they could be be erm game feature of the . +I hope I'll I'll wait this year. +I hope summat ha happens here. +It'll be great timing! +But Wrestle Mania's the biggest one here. +Hulk. +I bet he would. +I bet he's . +How about four months? +Or when everything's settled. +No. +Better get in while it's hot. +Yes, but you've gotta wait for your visas and all that lot, remember, like you said. +Yeah I know. +And there's another thing one tiny, tiny thing you forgot with all your plans. +What's that? +How are we gonna get you up in the air? +Easy. +Put me in an aeroplane! +Yes! +Alright then. +Your fear of flying is over! +Right? +Yeah. +But I am still going to sit right at the back of the aeroplane away from you! +And I still remember what you did to me in the car. +I won't be air sick! +I can still remember what you did to me in the car. +It wasn't my fault, had a big breakfast. +Well if you we if you knew you were gonna be sick you could have made it a bit more a different colour than that! +Urgh! +Urgh! +What's wrong with fiery red ? +Thank heavens it didn't go on my purple top! +Ah dear. +I do like eggs and bacon for breakfast! +Urgh! +Did you have to mention meat! +Ooh! +There's nothing wrong with bacon. +If you happen to like bacon. +Well I don't. +Oh I'll not talk about meat! +Thank you. +Talk about Sherry instead. +But I mean +Let's talk about meat! +Come here! +What for? +Aren't you funny? +You're very, very funny! +Very, very funny ! +You're very ugly! +What were you saying? +Or what you don't say? +Dunno. +I dunno, I forgot. +Come on! +What were you gonna say? +What? +Supposing we was over there in America for the beginning of July I couldn't go. +Why? +Oh Linda! +Mind you, I suppose +There's plenty of concerts to go to. +Yeah, but this'll be my first concert. +So! +Go and see in concert. +.Guns and Roses. +Guns and Roses I'm sorry ! +I know you can't stand Guns and Roses. +Neither can I. +I'd go and see a Guns and Roses concert. +I wouldn't. +And take some concrete with me. +I wouldn't. +And do them a nice pair of shoes to walk in . +No. +Can't be so mean to animals can you? +No. +Yeah but none of them none of them have had a brilliant album out. +Go for Bryan Adams or +Yeah. +You can get to go see Bryan Adams in concert. +June. +I'll go over in June. +Besides, I want my exams done first. +Oh we'll have them before won't we? +Are you quite sure about that? +Nope! +Well then ! +Monday, third of February +Martin's birthday. +And you're not over there to say, hello! +No. +I'm sure there's plenty of others. +Mm? +Plenty of others. +Suppose so. +But this is, is a special birthday. +Just cos he's reaching thirty. +Ah! +And he'll be twenty two in May. +Nineteen seventy five. +Twenty five, that sounded right,seventy five ! +Well he looks seventy five! +Yeah ! +We'll be twenty four. +And I'll be twenty one! +In your dreams! +Seventy one more like! +Ah funny! +Yeah. +Sorry! +You're only a baby! +Get stuffed! +Put it this way if I'm only baby, how come people younger than me have already got a family? +I know. +You've gotta put that down to it. +I was your baby at twenty one. +Yeah. +Well stop calling me a baby! +Just because I'm youngest. +Not talking to you any more! +Are you not? +Just don't feel like it now! +Don't talk to me any more then! +The only time you can talk to me, you can, when we've got the tickets and we're going. +Oh! +And erm Eh! +That's an idea! +If I do my exam well before you +You can tell me what to expect . +No. +I could change my hairstyle +And yeah! +You can go in as me! +I could! +Yeah. +You could do it for me! +But I'm not cheating. +I think they'll know the difference though. +How do you know? +You're shorter than me ! +Not all that short! +Nice int it? +Thickest and sho and short. +I'll tell you who wouldn't call me short? +Who? +A dwarf! +Ah! +I know. +Tom Cruise. +I'm about six feet ta taller than he is! +I'll let you get back with your letter. +Oh! +There's something else. +Poor thing! +Me. +Softy! +Who's this boxing match against anyway? +Sorry? +Who's this boxing match against? +Who? +Mam, they're both coloured! +This guy here. +Him in the red trunks? +Mm. +Oh! +He's that and he's run up and down. +These ref referees erm, fighters have funny names don't they? +Do you know what Tracey wanted me earlier for? +She was writing, she wanted me to look at it. +Oh! +I dunno. +Wrestle Mania? +No! +There's a bad hinge on there! +Which one's Lennox Lewis? +Which one's Lennox? +That one. +Wearing black. +That one. +In the black. +Oh! +I thought you meant something else then. +What's a slipstream? +Dad? +Get down! +That's a slipstream ! +Hey dad! +What about that other on holiday jumping? +Watch this! +I bet that was seafood. +Nothing? +I don't where I've put the thing. +What you looking for? +My pen. +Which one? +My white one. +You had it +. +There it is, on the table behind the red folder. +Up to get changed. +Yeah. +Oh! +Pocket's all wet! +Mm? +Pocket's all wet! +and dry it. +The inside's dry! +You know what I mean? +Well that's er dry but oh it doesn't matter. +I'll put these on. +Prefer my own jeans. +Now what you doing? +Eh? +I have to push it out. +Well, before you get carried away remember there's lots to do! +At least I get tha get out of them. +Anything, interesting been on? +No. +Oh! +Shit! +Don't start! +I'm not starting ! +Just laughing! +You will do when we get to come +Erm +when we're . +Yeah! +Yeah! +Yes. +Carry on. +I'm going! +your mind again. +What? +You've changed your mind? +Yes, I've changed my mind about that. +Well if you er, change it +But put it this way +Oh yes! +We could win a trip to the Grammy's in New York. +We could we could erm rub shoulders with erm Amy Grant could spend the evening with her then. +You you liar! +He did. +You liar! +Honest! +You liar! +And then it said, and you, you might get to see Prince with his erm . +I'd rather see our dog kill our Brian! +Well, not kill our Brian sort of +You did. +You did Brian, I sa honest. +But I'd rather be there . +Never visit the se er, awards like that is he? +He goes and he goes if you live in New York we'll take you to the erm he said then we'll we'll let you fly around the city for a while ! +Yes, but then the trouble +Didn't mean it like! +You didn't mean it? +Are you joking? +No I'm not! +The erm, thing about the erm +The trip, but the er flight? +About the flight round er New York, I was only joking. +Oh I'm . +He's so nice! +Nice face. +Yeah. +Yeah. +Nice face. +Which way round? +I don't know. +It's your . +Did you see anything in here? +Yes, you showed me everything in there. +No, Tracey, show me. +I'm gonna get a proper conditioner for my hair cos it don't look! +How can you make sha conditioner ? +Have you really chickened out? +Definitely chickened out! +Look at that time my dad did that lady over there and left me on the phone and told me to stay there and I was like that. +And +Yeah, but what about me? +Mind you, I've had more erm appeara more erm +You've had more experience of erm, cameras than I have. +Why? +Just because I've been in front of a camcorder! +I wouldn't say I've had experience in movies. +That's the trouble with though she didn't stop every time to get ready for the next scene. +All she did was say carry on as normal. +No, he did that. +Ah! +I suppose if you get, when you get there everything'll be alright. +But it was your idea of erm entrances that got me a bit scared. +From the top more from the top. +Top. +Yeah, but just sa say, if you come from th the top you, you're like a a waist thing round you and if you fall off that'll catch you. +So what do you think? +About the entrance? +Can I have a ? +You could come down on the the first half and I can jump and that's like Wrestle Mania. +Mm. +Mm. +But our feet will come down like that. +Put it this way Trace I am more petrified than about this than you are. +That would be a nightmare! +Will it? +Rod Stewart on the ooh! + +this moist toilet tissue. +Oh very nice. +You can have a drawer load of that cos we've got tons of it left. +Another one? +Er five. +Number five erm a mug. +Alright . +Alright, you're gonna come back on tomorrow? +Yeah. +Well I'll talk to you again tomorrow. +Alright then. +Tarrah. +bye. +Bye bye, off to control the small child now. +If you want to come on Loot at Lunchtime tomorrow erm five to one, ten to oneish, listen in then just after the Action Line bulletin and you can come on tomorrow perhaps and take on Sue from Chesterfield. +Er to come before two o'clock we've got part three of the strange things that people do around Nottinghamshire to pass the time. +And today we talk to the Nottinghamshire based place name society. +Get all excited about new road signs and things. +They're on before two. +This is er Bryan Adams new song this is called Please Forgive Me. +On the trains everything's okay, there's a late flight at the airport, flight L O G nine seven three from Guernsey, now coming in at five past two, so if you're rushing to meet that, there's no need cos it's not in for another twenty minutes, flight L O G nine seven three from Guernsey now due in at five past two. +On the motorways, motorway police say there's no problems there now, the earlier accident by junction twenty six is cleared so no problems northbound any more. +On the A six O nine Road at Woollaton there's resurfacing there between Drive and Drive. +On the A one, delays on the southbound carriageway three miles east of Worksop at the Appley Head Roundabout, Five Lane Ends on the A one, there's roadworks there with a contraflow and diversions for wide vehicles, so there are delays there if you're heading that way. +Er work continuing in Newark town centre with the closure of part of Castlegate in the Beesmarket Hill area of the town, diversions there mean that delays are likely too. +Road in Toten, that's the A six double O five has got roadworks at the junction of Lane, some delays in busy periods and the A fifty two, there's roadworks on the northbound carriageway at Clifton Bridge, there are diversions there for A fifty two traffic heading for Drive as well, sort of weave your way in and out of all the cones that are up there, the the cone monster's been in the night. +We'll update the traffic for you throughout the afternoon and the full service at teatime, John on from half past four until seven o'clock later on. +F M one O three point eight and ninety five point five, it's Radio Nottingham, Nottinghamshire's favourite station. +With the weather forecast for today to St Annes and Teresa, off you go. +An thank you. +Dry weather should spread this afternoon from the west. +It should stay dry overnight with fog and frost by morning. +Sunny spells for tomorrow but still a chance with showers. +Outlook for Friday, frost at first with sunny spells. +Thank you very much. +Thank you. +Th was marvellous. +Give us a ring soon. +I will do Geoff. +Tarrah. +Bye. +Bye bye Teresa from St Annes. +Er Loot at Lunchtime tomorrow ten to one quarter to oneish just after Action Line, give you the qualifying question then. +Er Dennis this afternoon has got Adam Faith on on Afternoon Special. +Do ya remember him in er in Budgie? +He's er a financial whiz kid now isn't he as well Adam Faith so talking to Dennis this afternoon on Afternoon Special. +John at teatime is talking to veteran D J Paul about the best records of all time and musician Edward who's playing at the Old Vic tonight, he's on as well. +Seven o'clock tonight it's er Radio Nottingham Sport and it's Colin on tonight, and er John from ten until midnight with a behind the scenes look at This Is Your Life with Roy and John's talking to Geoff as well who's er a painter of reproductions of art history. +Cor,ten till midnight with John . +It's become a Nottinghamshire's favourite now. +a bit of a a super wasn't it? +Marie Osmond before that and Paper Roses it's Radio Nottingham eight minutes to two now, Kids' County for today, these'll be the clues for it. +Where do we need here? +It's it's very busy every day. +There's shops there. +There's free cafeterias. +We know it's not the Queen's Medical Centre, the Victoria Centre or Street, +People come in and out. +There's a clock. +and it's not Street or the Four Seasons' Centre either. +Trudy's on from Calverton. +Hello. +Hello. +Hello, how are you? +I'm fine, fine . +well good. +At last somebody who's on without a face as long as a fiddle. +Well thank goodness for that . +I was just falling asleep actually listening to the music, it was you know you just listen to the radio . +What those two seventies one , Marie Osmond +Yes I +Paper Roses, was that number one? +I don't know . +No , number two, number two in November nineteen seventy three . +I'm not gonna tell you cos I'll be showing my age then . +Well that was twenty years ago that was . +And then er the Mud one was nineteen seventy five. +Yeah I remember that. +can you? +Yeah. +Can you remember them on Top of the Pops and that dance where they used to sort out walk round in circles but not +Yeah. +Do you remember it? +Actually I've been watching erm I go I've got Sky Television and the Top of the Pops is on there +You see the old ones? +God feel old. +I've watched those as well you think that? +I know and James ke my little boy keeps saying,what was it like in the olden days ? +Does he? +And what's he mean what about nineteen eighty? +Yeah. +He says it's like that. +Did they have cars in your day ? +No. +no we just had Jimmy Savile didn't we? +yeah +olden days +seem so old and ancient though don't they on there? +Yeah and do and don't they all seem thin? +Pan's People +as well don't they yeah Pan's People +it's all videos nowadays int it? +Well it is these days. +All these video satellites +And they call it and they call it progress. +Yeah. +And erm on some of those er there was a whole spate of songs that were really naff dancers weren't there as well? +Yeah. +I was watching w Top of the Pops the other night and it had a song on called Do the Buster. +Oh I can't +Can you remember th that was reall that's was god awful that was . +I don't I I don't catch it every night, it's on for an hour isn't it? +Is it? +Yeah. +I don't catch it every night. +And there were all those awful ones like Do the Bump. +Do the Bump? +Do you remember that? +Yeah. +And erm +another funny one. +You're making me feel old. +Erm hang on, I've thought of another one that was on the other night, Do the Footsie. +Footsie? +Oh I don't remember that one. +All those awful old things. +Oh I don't remember that one. +I rem I used to like Top of the Pops as a kid, we always used to settle down in front of the T V +Yeah a +before we went to bed yeah. +An and did you used to tape it with your cassette machine? +Ooh I can't remember that. +With a little microphone held up to the telly? +Ooh yeah I've done that. +Did ya. +I did. +And you'd listen to your tapes back and er w in the middle of it you'd always hear yourself going shh +Yeah +to people +or quiet be quiet +shh shh +Well there was five of us round +shh +the telly so you can imagine when it was like bedlam at our house. +I'm recording shh. +Kids' County, where do we need? +Oh I'm a bit baffled now. +Are ya ? +I am yeah, I am actually I'm baffled. +Where do you think then? +Erm well is there a lot of erm I w I want a clue now. +Go on then. +Is is there some transport going off round there? +Some what? +Travels through? +Transport. +Some transport. +Mm. +Yeah. +T=int the Victoria Bus Station? +No it's not. +Broadmarsh? +No. +Mm. +Tarrah. +Bye then. +Bye bye. +Ada's on from Radford. +Hello Ada. +Hello Geoff. +How are you? +Very well thank you. +Marvellous how's your teeth? +Pardon? +How's your teeth? +Very well the same as I am. +Good, I'm just checking you see, making sure there all there are they, all present and correct? +They are yeah. +Great. +Kids' County, where do I need Ada? +Is it the Nottingham Evening Post? +No. +Ooh God. +No. +Never mind, tarrah. +Tarrah. +Bye bye. +Alison from Bradmore, hello. +Hello. +Where do think I need? +Pardon? +Where do I need? +Er sorry what was that? +Where do I need for Kids' County, what you rang up for? +Oh right well I think it's Nottingham train station. +Yes it is. +Thank goodness for that. +Oh wonderful. +Yes it is, it's the er it's the train station. +Yes oh great. +you're a radio virgin aren't you, you've not been on before? +That's right yes it's the first time ever so it's quite an experience. +Well are yo is it going alright for you so far do you think? +Oh well no not too bad. +Well you've won. +I mean tell me what you do with yourself Alison. +Erm well erm I I normally work four days a week but I'm not working today because we're having about twenty people around for a buffet supper tonight so I'm very busy cooking. +Oh are ya? +Yes, very very Bradmore. +Very +Oh well +very Bradmore thing is to have a buffet supper. +Oh no . +Who are who are all these people then that you've got coming round, trekking around the place? +Erm well they're colleagues of mine, I work at the so these are colleagues of mine who are coming around +Oh I see. +t it's about twenty of them so I'm quite looking forward to it. +An and what do you do then at the ? +Erm I worked in the medical faculty but I actually left there yesterday and I'm starting a new post in er ophthalmology on Monday so +Are you well congratulations. +Thank you very much. +And er you've won the Kids' County for today, you've got loads of stuff, so er +you hang on the line and we'll lob it all off to you. +Oh thank you very much Geoff . +And also we'll give you an I Lost It At Lunchtime ex radio Virgin certificate as well. +Oh brilliant, thank +and +you very much indeed that's great. +and you'll be pleased to know that because we've waffled on for so much we'll have to save the county's peculiar pastimes until tomorrow, +because I've I've not got time now,been gabbing on for so much. +Tarrah. +Sorry about that, right Geoff bye . +That's alright I'll blame you, bye. +Bye, bye. +Tarrah. +Radio Nottingham News with Andy . +Kent police say at least ten people have been killed and a further two are believed to have died in a coach crash on the M two near the Faversham turn-off. +The coach carrying forty four American tourists on a day trip to Canterbury collided with a van and plunged down an embankment. +Dozens of other people were injured. +From the scene, Martin reports. +The stricken coach now stands on the hard shoulder of the M two having been lifted up the embankment by a heavy crane. +When the vehicle was righted the full horror of this accident became clear. +Rescuers found ten bodies. +At the height of the rescue operation up to forty five firemen equipped with heavy lifting gear battled to free the injured. +Those that survived the crash were ferried to the Kent and Canterbury Hospital in a fleet of ambulances. +Police accident investigators are at the scene trying to piece together why a day trip to Canterbury and Leeds Castle near Maidstone for a group of American tourists ended in tragedy. +The M two motorway remains closed between junctions five and six and is not expected to reopen for several hours. +Eye witness Richard was driving behind the coach when the accident happened. +He describes the scene. +you see the coach come to a standstill and then all the people screaming and trying to get out so I pulled over and just sort of done my best to get 'em out. +And what were you able to do? +Well not a lot really,like just getting people up on the bank for the ambulances to pick 'em up from the motorway. +Police have issued an emergency telephone number for relat for relatives seeking information about the accident, it's , that's . +There's been another jobs blow in Nottinghamshire with the news that Staythorpe Power Station is to close with the loss of 124 posts. +It follows 's decision to replace the coal-fired station near Newark with a gas one. +The Sherwood MP says thousands more generating jobs will be lost in the next five years. +Nigel reports. +say the increase in gas-fired power stations means traditional coal ones are becoming surplus to requirements. +Production will stop at Staythorpe at the end of March next year. +say they're not worried by the decision. +Coal from Welbeck is used at Staythorpe but the Coal Board say its closure has already been taken into account. +Paddy the Sherwood MP is less optimistic. +He predicts more job losses which will hit the coal industry hard. +There are twenty six er coal-fired power stations now, I believe they'll be down to ten within the next three years, and I think in the electricity generating industry another ten thousand jobs could go. +He's also sceptical about the construction of a gas-fired power station at Staythorpe. +He says the government might have given approval but questions whether are committed to bringing a new Nottinghamshire power station on stream. +And 's dismissed a speculation claims that it wants to increase redundancy payments to miners at Calverton pit by seven thousand pounds. +There are claims that it's an attempt to change miners' minds about a decision last week to fight to save their pit. +The governor of Hong Kong, Chris Patten, has met a cabinet committee to discuss the future of the colony. +Afterwards, the Foreign Secretary, Douglas Hurd, said Britain would propose that talks moved into a more intensive phase to resolve outstanding issues. +He said weeks rather than months were left to ensure greater democracy was established. +There's still no sign of the Rampton Special Hospital patient who went missing while on a shopping trip in Sheffield yesterday. +Hospital authorities are warning the public not to approach the man but they're refusing to say anything about his background. +They say to do so would be a breach of health service rules of confidentiality. +Here's Paula . +Forty two year old Terence ran off while he was out shopping with another patient and two Rampton staff members. +Rampton is overseen by the Special Hospital Services Authority. +Today they said Mr had been a patient there since nineteen eighty nine but refused to reveal more about his background. +They said it would breach N H S codes of confidentiality but that they would review this decision if Mr was still missing later today. +They're warning the public not to approach him. +He's five foot ten, of medium build and has short dark brown receding hair. +He was wearing horn rimmed glasses and a white three quarter length anorak. +Shares in had to be suspended on the Paris stock exchange collapsing after the company announced a massive loss. +The leisure park lost around six hundred and fifteen million pounds in the year to September, that's around four million pounds a week. +There have been complaints about the cost of holidays at . +The weather, dry weather should slowly spread from the west this afternoon, maximum temperatures up to nine Celsius, forty eight Fahrenheit. +Tonight expected to be dry with mist and fog patches forming and a ground frost in many places, the minimum temperature is down to one degree Celsius, thirty four Fahrenheit. +Tomorrow, mostly dry and sunny. +It's five past two now. +this Wednesday afternoon linking the East Midlands, and it promises to be something of a rather special afternoon this Afternoon Special because we have a very special guest, the legendary Adam Faith who's appearing in Alfie, not until next March at Nottingham's Theatre Royal, but he's here to tell us all about the play and himself. +Adam Faith. +Then we've got our Funny Man competition, now it's rather special because today we offer you a choice of one of four videos and they are all superb videos I promise you. +And got a new feature film amongst those. +On the hour the news and weather and we'd like to hear from you this afternoon. +the number to ring it you'd like to have a chat on the air. +You have to dial the code O six O two if you're outside the Nottingham area. +And our postal contestants aren't forgotten today because the new edition of the World of Toy Dogs is out, very popular magazine with our listeners and er postal contestant winners will get that. +All happening, music as well, starting with Abba. +Lies from Abba. +We need six more contestants for our competition. +And there really are some beautiful videos to win this week. +tell you about the videos now if you like. +Six more contestants we need, the only rule is that you mustn't have played a phone-in competition on this programme in the last four weeks. +Okay? +Now you listen out for these, for these videos, you can win a choice of these videos. +There's Seaplanes of the Luftwaffe, which is a very exciting video actually that one, good-looking video that, Seaplanes of the Luftwaffe. +And a new feature film, Christopher Timothy in James Herriot's Yorkshire, The Film. +How about that? +James Herriot's Yorkshire, The Film with Christopher Timothy. +Of All Creatures Great And Small. +And then there is er superb video, very funny video, John Virgo, you know he d he does that er programme with erm Jim Davidson, the snooker programme. +Well John Virgo's got a video out called Playing For Laughs, The Trick Shot Master. +The Big Break as featured on B B Cs number one game show Big Break. +So there you go, you can have the video John Virgo's Playing For Laughs. +And the brand new video that's just in the shops, I think today is the first day in the shops, called Portrait Of A City, Nottingham nineteen ninety three. +Now I've done the narration for that and that video is a hundred and twelve action packed minutes about Nottingham in nineteen ninety three. +That's in the shops today and you can win that video, you can win that video this afternoon. +And incidentally er about that video, can't tell you where you can them on the air but if you want to know where you can get Portrait Of A City, if you ring us on we'll tell you. +Well describing all those super videos er worked the oracle. +We're now full so we'll play the game Guess the Voice after this one from Sonny and Cher. +All I Ever Need is You from Sonny and Cher. +Well we've got the eight contestants we'll play the game, it's Guess the Voice and there's some super videos on offer and er it's Guess The Voice of the funny man, good videos on offer, Grenville Granville of Mansfield Woodhouse. +Hello . +Hello. +Tell me the voice of this funny man and you could win a video. +They er di the strange thing about the critics is it's a theatre town and being like er Nottingham has been made m much more so by the the money that's been spent on the theatre as in Norwich. +Now Southsea, not a theatre town, but I've played there many times before, arrived there is a large advance and advance for people that don't know is the money that's being paid over the weeks before when they hear this production is going there. +Let me tell you he does a lot on television in sitcoms er a lot of films as well, comic actor, funny man, who is he? +Is it Norman Wisdom? +No it's not Norman Wisdom. +No Granville. +Sorry. +alright thanks . +Sorry , thanks for trying. +Cheers. +Shirley of +Aspley. +Aspley. +Yeah. +What do you think? +Erm, I've got a feeling it's him out of Bread but I can't think of his name. +You've go a f out of Bread? +Mm. +I don't think s er erm I don't think so. +No. +Er s so many have been in you know so many have been in Bread I don't actually, I don't +Play it again. +Again? +Yeah. +Oh. +They er d the strange thing about the critics is it's a theatre town and being like er Nottingham has been made m much more so by the the money that's been spent on the theatre as in Norwich. +Now Southsea, not a theatre town, but I've played there many times before, arrived there is a large advance and advance for people that don't know is the money that's being paid over the weeks before when they hear this production is going there. +What do you think? +Erm is it Dougie Brown? +Dougie Brown? +Mm. +Oh Dougie Brown, no it's not Dougie Brown Shirley . +Oh. +Okay +for having a bash though. +Right, thank you. +Bye love. +Bye. +Derek of Wigston. +Yes good afternoon. +What do you think Derek? +Er Simon Callow is it? +Simon Callow? +No it's not Simon Callow, no, no . +No?thank you. +Sorry. +Right, bye. +Erm er that nature I think but er not Simon Callow. +David of Sherwood. +Hi Dennis. +What do you think David? +Ooh I've been listening really carefully an I I can't even have a hazard a guess at this one. +No good at all? +No good at all I'm afraid. +Oh. +Sorry about that. +Oh alright , oh alright, thanks for trying. +Cheers. +Bye. +Bye. +Barbara of Burton on the Wolds. +No it's no good Dennis I heard it last week. +I was hoping somebody'd get it. +Oh. +No. +Can't it do doesn't ring a bell at all. +Not at all. +It will do. +It will do. +Of course it will. +you know when you know. +Yes. +Erm erm +Have we got any clues? +Well other than you know he's he does a lot of television sitcoms, +Yeah +not sure that he's on the moment but he's done a lot and films, er comic actor, funny man. +It's not Jim Dale is it? +Not Jim Dale no . +No. +Thanks Barbara . +Thank you. +Bye love. +Cynthia of Great . +Hello. +Er I'm a bit like the other lady I've no idea either. +Have you not? +No I was hoping it would be won as well. +No ideas? +None whatsoever. +No I'm sorry . +Oh dear. +Alright Cynthia +Okay. +Thank you. +Thanks bye bye . +Bye. +Oh dear, erm Kay of Woodhorse Park. +Hello. +You know don't you? +I don't. +Don't you know? +No, I'll ha a quick guess, Richard Briers. +No you're l but you're not far out with sort of age or style and that sort of thing. +Oh. +You know so I mean y you're not you're not miles out. +No. +With with with the type of things he does. +Yeah. +Never mind. +Erm , dear alright Kay. +Okay bye. +Bye love. +Well well there you are then. +Er I think we've got one more contestant and then that's it. +Just one more bash at this one. +They er d the strange thing about the critics is it's a theatre town and being like er Nottingham has been made m much more so by the the money that's been spent on the theatre as in Norwich. +Now Southsea, not a theatre town, but I've played there many times before, arrived there is a large advance and advance for people that don't know is the money that's being paid over the weeks before when they hear this production is going there. +Martin of Swadlingcote. +Who's that? +How are you Dennis? +Not bad. +Erm I'm not sure you see I'm I'm a bit young. +Erm no. +No. +No? +No +No +He's younger than you are. +He's not. +He is. +I'm only twenty three Dennis. +Er well he's not much older than you. +He's not much older? +No really, really. +Erm any more clues? +No, I've given ever such a lot of clues, don't normally give this number of clues. +We got all these lovely videos to win. +Oh. +Every time I get on it's always the same. +Well,some someone's got it by post. +Erm I'm struggling. +I can tell. +Erm +No good is it? +No. +Not coming. +Alright, thanks for trying Martin . +Sorry Dennis. +That's alright, thanks for +Okay. +trying. +Bye. +So it's the postal one again. +I'm a bit surprised cos we have got some answers by post, let's see if we can get some more now. +Postcards please to Funny Man,, Derby, Leicester, Lincoln or Nottingham, whichever is closest to you. +Postcards to be here by Wednesday next week when again we'll have, all being well, our Funny Man competition. +And this is the voice you have to identify. +They er d the strange thing about the critics is it's a theatre town and being like er Nottingham has been made m much more so by the the money that's been spent on the theatre as in Norwich. +Now Southsea, not a theatre town, but I've played there many times before, arrived there is a large advance and advance for people that don't know is the money that's being paid over the weeks before when they hear this production is going there. +Who's that? +Funny man, comic actor, good 'un too. +Er postcards please to Funny man,, Derby, Leicester, Lincoln or Nottingham, whichever is closest to you. +Now if we'd have the voice of the Funny Man guessed we would have had some postal contestant winners, but they now go back in the box with those yet to come in the next week. +And that means we don't give out the Toy Dogs magazine, but hopefully we'll offer it a surprise tomorrow to the postal er to the postal winners. +And the Toy D W World of Toy Dogs magazine er this week er this issue this month features the chihuahua which is a delightful dog, and when you see the little chihuahua dog you don't realize that it's a fighting dog of Mexico. +It is, it's the fighting dog of Mexico the chihuahua. +Anyway all about chihuahuas and lots more about toy dogs,th fascinating magazine, the World of Toy Dogs. +We'll offer it tomorrow on the on the on the show. +Now if you like t take part in the phone-in, you know the number to ring, it's , we're taking calls now. +And we had an irate call from a listener, er was it yesterday or the day before, saying,I want you to ring me. +How I can never get through to your programme, never ever ever . +You can if you keep trying. +for the phone-in. +Also for Bargain Basement, that's the feature today, if you've got an item for sale, five pounds or under, we'll sell it for you on the programme. +Keep it a bargain price, we'll find you a customer. +The number to ring to get on Bargain Basement right now is . +The Fifth Dimension and Up Up and Away. +Now if you'd like to call us t have a chat, the number to ring. +If you'd like to go on Bargain Basement, the feature we have round about three thirty, if you've got something for sale, five pounds or under, call us on . +Er nice event at er Kirkby in Ashfield, on Thursday, that's er ooh it's tomorrow. +It's tomorrow at Kirkby in Ashfield. +What it is it's the Kirkby Fund-raisers and Rotary Club of Kirkby in Ashfield and they're presenting a flower demonstration, always very popular. +This one by an excellent flower demonstrator called Ian . +Now Ian is putting on this flower demonstration show, it's called From Me To You. +It'll be lovely, it's tomorrow, seven thirty at the Festival Hall, Kirkby in Ashfield, all the proceeds are to local charities and the admission is two pounds fifty, and that includes refreshments. +If you would like two tickets, call us now on . +In fact you won't be able to get through right now but keep on calling, that's and we'll send you a pair of tickets, we need your postcode and we'll send 'em first class. +A flower demonstration called From Me To You by Ian tomorrow, seven for seven thirty tomorrow at the Festival Hall, Kirkby in Ashfield, Nottingham, two pounds fifty and that includes refreshments. +For sale, two tickets for the Ted Heath concert this Friday at the Royal Concert Hall in Nottingham. +E they want ten pounds each. +They were twelve pounds fifty each. +Phone . +Okay, two tickets for sale for the Ted Heath concert, this Friday at the Royal Concert Hall in Nottingham, they were twelve pounds fifty each, you can have the two tickets for ten pounds each, call ,. +Henry of Allenton. +Yes Dennis. +Yes Henry. +Hello. +Hello. +I want to speak to you about this street lighting. +Street lighting? +Yes. +W see we we er I live in a cul-de-sac, Allenton. +Yes. +Street, and the bottom lamp has been out now for six weeks. +Yeah. +Six weeks. +Have you told 'em? +Pardon? +Have you told them? +Have you told the authorities? +Yes, we've been the channels, been been right through to street lighting itself +Yeah, actually it's Highways, isn't it? +Highways Department. +. +No i no can't understand this,be be been to the City Council, Highways Council and now we we've ended up with the erm Electricity Board. +Sh I rang er my lo local councillor an h he looked into it,an he said, er it's in the hands now of the Electricity Board. +Now you see we're being modernized in this area, now they're old steel houses in Allenton, about five hundred of 'em +Yeah. +Now they've been digging up the garden to make a channel for all electricity to go underground you see. +So something happened there at that house, we told 'em the house number, where the lamp's situated, we gave 'em all the information they they need but we still can't get any response. +We've all been telephoning there's about twelve of us it effects. +I've made about si six calls. +You can't get anybody to come down to see about it. +I'm surprised that er call to the local councillor didn't work. +Yes, I've called the local council. +I'm surprised that one didn't work because I mean they're usually hot on it, you know they know where to go and and usually there's action taken if a councillor takes up the cause. +Yeah. +Is it causing, is there any danger? +Pardon? +Is there danger with the light off? +Well no oh yes it is danger , you see now see now the path around here,th they're laying a new new path. +Cos it wanted laying er now they've put the rough stuff down but when they put it down they left er about say inch er drop you know so er if you can't see where you're walking, especially strangers they're gonna tipple over. +They're gonna trip up you see. +Cos we know it's there, so we we miss it. +Mm. +But six weeks without a lamp it seems ridiculous doesn't it? +Mm. +Because we we run a a neighbourhood watch scheme. +And how can we run our do our job like that without a lamp? +There's only about three in the street. +Now one one of those at the top of the street where er where the er is,you can say virtually th about one one lamp in the street. +Well what can we do? +How how do we go on now, who do we call now,anybody interested in the job. +Erm, well Allenton. +Yeah. +All we can ask is if there's a councillor for Allenton listening to us, if they could get in touch and we'll put them in touch with you and see if we can start it all over again Henry. +I do know that street lighting is the very devil, cos it can come under about half a dozen different departments, it can come under Highways, +Yes. +but it can also come under Electricity Board if it's a failure of the electricity. +Yes you're quite right there because part of the street,the pavement and hard standing in the gardens for the cars which was a very good idea, now there's the city have done two thirds of that and then when they came to the end of the er cul-de- sac, +Mm. +But as you say you know with this Neighbourhood Watch scheme you do need the lighting on properly don't you? +Yeah we do we can't do our job without. +But is it working this Neighbourhood Scheme? +Neighbourhood Watch Scheme? +Yeah. +Have you have you ever seen anybody acting in a suspicious manner? +Oh not yet, +Apart apart from you of course? +No no I I ca can see er most of cos I'm I'm in the area where the er lamps sh when the lamps are alight, +Yeah +I can see anyone w lurking around you see. +Oh I see. +But with a lamp out well we can't tell whether they're no-gooders, neighbours or what. +You see we can't tell. +Alright okay. +Well if th if there's somebody whose listening in the Derby area who can help us with a street lamp that's out and it's rather important that it get put on, and it's been out for six weeks now +Six weeks +Six weeks long time. +Alright. +Anybody calls Henry we'll put 'em through to you. +Yes er thank you. +Okay. +Bye. +Bye. +Can you help Henry out? +Rather important that one you know, a street lamp out for six weeks, though I know it's difficult getting in touch with exactly the right department and whose responsibility it is. +But a councillor for Allenton please call us,. +I know how keen many of our listeners are on craft shows and there's a big 'un at Nottingham University at the Jessie Boot Conference Centre, Nottingham University on Friday and Saturday, November the twenty six and twenty seventh so this is in a couple of weeks time and giving you n advance notice. +There are Christmas gifts galore, and there's it's a big it's a big craft show put on by some good people. +So the craft show, er adults are a pound, there's easy free parking, children are free and if you want two tickets give us a ring , but make a note Nottingham University, this craft show, Jessie Conference Centre, Nottingham University, Friday and Saturday November the twenty six and twenty seventh from ten A M till six P M. +Friday it's noon till nine. +Anyway there y are, big craft fair and er pound a ticket this craft fair, November twenty six, twenty seventh, Nottingham University, call us on , we'll send you a ticket first class we will. +Jean of Nuneaton. +Jean. +Ah. +Vicky of Skegness. +That's right, yes . +Yes Vicky. +Hello Dennis. +Hello. +I spoke to you on Monday, er I think probably you remember regarding Bosnia, +Collec collecting things for Bosnia and +That's right. +taking them to Road? +That's right. +Now +Yes. +I gave out a wrong number in +You what? +I gave out a +You what? +You stupid woman. +You silly old bat. +Don't say that. +What have you done Vicky? +Oh I know . +Do you mean to say that everybody's taken them to Road? +Well +Oh my gosh what have you done? +Oh Vicky you've upset the whole system, everything's broken down . +Oh no. +I shall be flying round there with my boxes to collect them . +Could they please take them to er ah one six two +You said one three two. +I did. +I did Dennis. +Who lives at one three two? +What poor soul has been taking stuff in for Bosnia ? +I do +Oh you stupid girl. +Well I do hope that people are that interested to want to take things anyway Dennis I mean, you know. +Well no but Oh. +Not not there I agree,no . +There could be grand pianos, campers, +Oh, oh +buckets of coal, everything , +You're +coconuts +you're very optimistic yeah . +Oh de what have you done? +Oh mm +You've ruined the whole +concept of the programme. +How could you be like that? +Oh dear yes well mm. +There are people around like me I suppose, +Not many thank goodness. +No I'll thank you for the confidence no . +So where do they g Are you gonna go round to a hundred and thirty two and say sorry ? +Yes my husband my husband has actually been round. +Oh you are married? +Y h he has put a note through the door . +You're married? +I am married yes. +And you've kept your husband? +Somebody wants me. +Yeah and you've kept your husband, I'm surprised . +Yeah +I'm surprised. +It's not your first is it? +Yes it is actually yeah . +It's your first it's your first is it? +Twenty six years Dennis,. +Never. +Poor soul he deserves a medal. +Oh oh god,I hope he isn't listening. +So it's what, it's a hundred and sixty two? +It's a hundred and sixty two to a hundred and +Oh dear +sixty four Road. +He has put a note through the door but unfortunately the people were out you see so +Oh at hundred and thirty two? +They're the ones with the grand piano in the front garden. +Oh well we'll look out for that. +Mm mm. +I shall drag it off. +Oh dear oh dear oh dear. +Yes. +Do you know if you got anything? +Er no, I had one er I put the phone down from you which was er it was very deflating I had one pervert can I call him that came o +Really? +Yeah I did, come on the phone which you know wh +Breathing heavy and everything? +Well and er let's say everything but that yes and +Oh and was he interesting, what did he say? +I'm not telling you Dennis. +Why not? +Oh I'm not, I I'm just not. +Oh. +I it's just you know +I've told you what my wife s you've heard what my wife says? +Wha what does your wife say? +To perverts. +Oh. +Have you not heard? +No. +She had this pervert on and he was going on all through everything you know what I mean? +Right the lot yeah . +That's right. +And at the end of it she said I'm sorry could you say that again? +Oh n over +So he screamed and put the phone down. +Oh no ,I'll remember that one. +Yes. +Mm. +Yes but unfortunately +so you mean to say that you made this tremendous appeal +Yes. +for Bosnia and +I know +this was a chance for everybody around the Skegness +Yeah. +area to give to Bosnia +Yeah. +and they don't normally because they're on a far-flung outpost of the British Empire at Skegness +Well yes +and they don't normally give to anywhere, because nobody ever asks. +N yeah. +And this was the one opportunity and all you got was one pervert ringing you up . +Yeah. +I mean I was given +Oh +about t yeah he's rang since twice Dennis. +Has he? +Oh yeah. +Again about half a hour ago. +Erm but er I had this very little lady who +He's ill of course he's ill you know that ? +Pardon? +I mean be sorry for him. +Oh mm . +He is ill. +He is ill. +He is ill. +Er and he's probably listening now. +He is ill. +poor soul. +Erm yeah fair enough Dennis. +But you know er I was living in hope that the phone wouldn't stop ringing erm etcetera. +But erm there is still time isn't there for +No not if if didn't work if it didn't work once it won't work again. +It's obvious that the people of Skegness do not want to give. +Mhm. +You have to live with this. +There are times when you have to live with these unpleasant facts of life. +That I don't understand. +Because you know, how much o +Well maybe nobody was listening. +Possibility. +Possibility Dennis . +Possibility. +In that case have you time for me to go over it again in case anyone's listening to +Oh no not you. +Ah no +No cos oh no. +Oh no cos you give wrong addresses you do. +Oh no. +I'm not gonna have it, you're gonna say, give it to the third caravan parked on the beach on the left hand side of the loo +I know +I promise I wouldn't honest . +Oh what do you mean you promise, you promised last time you'd get it right and you didn't. +Ah Vicky you're hopeless at this . +Oh you're +Let's face it. +with confidence you are . +Listen, let's face it. +A a at raising interest in Bosnia you Vicky are hopeless . +Oh god . +Hopeless, what is the point of carrying on? +Why don't you just do your normal job, scrubbing the front doorstep, looking after your husband's breakfast +isn't it doing the washing and ironing and ye Oh , I ho I hope everybody proves you wrong Dennis and the phone +Well they won't no they won't they won't. +They won't and +you leave it to one sixty two one six four Road,in Skegness. +I shall say it again just in +I'll bet you ma you probably get that pervert ringing now. +Yeah. +Have I got the right number? +And tell him no. +No. +no +What you wanna ring is Skegness nine nine nine. +That's right. +Yeah. +Right yes. +Talk to a beautiful woman constable. +Eh you know you've set me at it now, look I'm as bad as you. +Oh dear. +Oh dear. +I never thought I +Me? +never thought I'd get down to this level. +Really didn't. +It's talking me it's my influence . +I know obviously obviously. +Now let's get right, you are collecting things for Bosnia? +Yes Dennis . +What sort of things? +You're sure you got them right? +You sure you got the right, you sure you sent off the right husband this morning? +Oh god. +Are you sure you sent off the right husband ? +It sounds terrible. +Are you sure? +Well I think so yeah. +What did he look like? +Pardon? +What did he look like, the one you sent off? +Bald-headed, +Your husband's got hair. +He's not +You told me last time. +. +My gosh, you've sent off the wrong husband. +You know you're getting me a name for myself and there might be somebody listening you never know . +Well if there is this time maybe it'll work. +Wh +Go on n what do you want for Bosnia. +Right Dennis n, tins of food, things like ham, fish, beans, anything tinned, packets of dried food, dried milk oh er dried herbs, jars jars of jam, marmalade anything that'll keep, herbs and spices, games for the children and I think I said Monday, they needn't be new but ones that ne ones that do not need batteries. +They can't get hold of batteries. +And then you're gonna take 'em into Derbyshire and then they're gonna go to Bosnia fairly quickly. +They're going to be collected alright I'm gonna meet them halfway actually between here and Derbyshire erm at the end of November beginning of December and they are actually going, the last lorry leaves Derbyshire on the tenth of +what a time I had on that , it was wonderful. +That's right. +And I remember at the time, I was chasing you over a most ridiculous national press story that Emlyn didn't like the idea of you a pop singer appearing in one of his classics. +It was all a manufactured story it +was all a load of nonsense and you've certainly proved over the last twenty five years how ridiculous whoever started that story was. +Well it was a good story I suppose. +Yeah having worked in newspapers er for two or three years I n I now know that the er what you look, well I didn't look for cos I was on the business page, what people look for is a good story and it doesn't +necessarily relate to what's going on. +Yeah you you you sort of set off several legends in your lifetime Adam erm le let's just er either destroy or establish one legend. +Go on then. +That you have a table in a very posh hotel in London and you run your business from that table. +How true is that? +Well I used to run my business from the teashop in and I ha they put phones and everything in for at the corner table. +Er but when they changed the room round I moved to the because and I became a director of the for a while fo three f four years something like that. +Erm but I've had to give it all up because I'm too busy, so I don't run it from anywhere now, but for the last er four or five years it's been from the Hotel. +You actually had a table at the Hotel? +Yeah. +Why didn't you have an office, a plush office somewhere? +Well I don't like office , I love hotels and I think having meetings in a hotel's more civilized than sitting in an office. +But you got people staring at you, you got people s coming up to you and saying, didn't you used to be Adam Faith? +that's alright, I don't mind that. +I'm f used to that now after a few years. +The legitimate er side of Adam Faith did begin didn't it with ? +was my first stage play that I ever did. +With Dame Sybil , +Yeah. +Sir Lewis +Absolutely. +What they were like towards you? +Dame Sybil was the most gracious, helpful, generous woman you can ever ask to work with, you know, you'd expect me to say that anyway, I'm not gonna say anything else er but in her case it really was true. +She was er I mean was a pop s ex pop singer, I'd only just stopped singing a few weeks before I started to work with Sybil and she could not have been more gracious and generous in helping me get through it. +She was wonderful. +You done some great stuff in the acting world haven't you, I mean you must be very proud of some of the stuff . +I've had some marvellous parts to play, yeah. +Budgie was a great part and I loved playing Frank Carver in Love Hurts erm and I didn't when when I was asked to do i , well w actually i it wasn't a series, the writers and I were put together by a man called Alan who's now my partner in Alfie as well he's and he asked me why wasn't I working and would he would I mind being put together with the two writers. +He arranged all that and out of the conversation at the er out came Love Hurts. +And I never r expected it to be anything like the end result, I mean the reaction to it's been fantastic in the last two years. +As I said we can talk about half a dozen Adam Faiths. +The pop singer is interesting and er l er we've got a record,i it could be The Best of Adam Faith and I think every track is practically worn out. +They really were superb commercial happy songs weren't they? +Well you know it was one of those happy combinations of Johnny writing them, John coming with those fresh arrangements and me sort of the naivety and the joy of being in the business, it was so exciting and happy that it was one of those lucky things where the combination of the three of us worked. +that about twenty songs on the L P we've got and I think they all sold a million +Ah they were all big sellers +or more . +they were and they were all hits and it was a great period. +And nobody ever said,baby like you did . +yeah it was it was er you know it's it's er just one of those happy things in life where everything seemed to work great. +But why did you stop? +Why did you stop singing that way ? +Well because I thought that the hits were coming to an end and I didn't want to become an all-round entertainer, I wasn't suited to it, I w I didn't have any feeling for all-round entertaining. +I liked it when I was a pop singer and girls were screaming and it was er mad and exciting. +I didn't ever relish the thought of becoming a sort of geriatric performer, going around clubs and summer seasons. +Er I'd always wanted to act even as a kid of fifteen sixteen er and I got into singing before I went into acting and so acting s see that seemed to be a good period to break my life and start again. +But you must you must have been asked dozens of times to go back into the pop concert field? +I have, I've been asked a lot in the last twenty odd years and it's only just recently that I've seriously considered it, which is why I've made this new album, Midnight Postcards. +Erm and that's really been coming on for about five years. +A friend of mine Dave who wrote half the album with me and produced the album has been on at me for five years, come on let's make an album, let's make an album, let's make an album, making a, let's make an album er and a few record companies have come on and they've always wanted me to do an album like maybe, let's prepackage old sixties' songs and revise them, or let's do love themes from T V shows and which would never have interested me, so I said to Dave, you know when a record company comes with an offer to make an album, to do the album I wanna do then we'll do one. +And came this year and said, come on do this album. +It sounds as though y you you weren't heavily managed as a pop singer. +It sounds as though you did the things you wanted to do. +Yeah well I've always done that, you know for good or worse. +Er I've always er, I don't think I e I b th whenever I've been unhappy with work it's been work that I've allowed myself to do for ulterior motives, for money or whatever I m The things I've done er even th the things that have been unsuccessful th if I've wanted to do them, I've been able to live with that. +You do realize though that there must have been some people who were saddened by the fact you didn't continue your pop career? +C I hope they're so saddened that they threw now they'll go out and buy it. +Alright but I mean,ge genuinely er +Yeah I genuinely look all I can say about this new album is if I'd have continued recording for the last twenty odd years and had a sustained recording career like Cliff continued singing, this would have been the album that I would've ended up doing anyway. +So in a sense, although I haven't recorded in the meantime, I st I still would have ended up in the same place. +Cos this is the album of music the sort of music I would wanna listen to and I like s performing. +How did Adam Faith the businessman happen? +That corner at the Hotel? +Well er ha you know I found myself after Budgie managing a singer called Leo and that led to a lot of interesting business and getting involved an , and I sort of forgot Adam Faith for ten years and just got diverted really. +And I'd had a car crash and it was quite a relief not to have to worry about performing. +And I sort of started to get itchy feet to come back and do things in the early eighties and that's when I went to Liverpool, I did a play with, I did Alfie with Alan who just directed the Commitments and er we went to a b and that really got me fired up to start again, and I sort of did some theatre stuff through the bits and pieces through the eighties until Love Hurts came. +I turned down a couple of T V series cos I didn't feel I was right for them. +And just Love Hurts just seemed to fit, just right like a glove, I wanted to do it. +So when the boys and I met and they said over tea I th , well why don't we do something about a love affair, it just seemed right. +And fortunately it's worked out well. +Are you ever surprised at how good you are, particularly at acting? +Remember that basically you were a pop singer, basically . +Yes. +Erm I'm always overjoyed when people say things like that to me, that you've just said, er but I think I understand acting more than I understand anything in the world. +And I have a passion for acting and the truth of acting which is like life to me. +And if it if it I'm more surprised about if it's successful. +Er I'm not surprised if it turns out and people think it's good cos I spend when I'm in the part it becomes my life so I don't really judge it in terms of good or bad, I just it becomes like breathing. +I know it sounds a bit actorish and pretentious to say that but it's a it's a hundred and ten per cent passion. +I cut my other life off real life off and become that person and I'm at my happiest when I'm submerged in another character doing it. +I lo I love the commitment of it, the total hundred per cent commitment of acting. +And in a way that's how I approached this album, it's how I will approach Alfie when we come you know it's it's a wonderful passion. +And I missed that in the seventies and eighties, and my wife said you know you're mad, towards the late eighties she told me off, she said you're mad, you'll spend your life looking for something that you've already got, for god's sake just concentrate on what you r are, you're an actor, do that, perform. +When you were +And it was a you know it was a great happiness and release to shed a million other activities and flying in all directions thinking the acting wasn't enough and I wasn't enough for acting. +And this last two or three years I've s I've become to realize that how important acting and performing is to me, and h how much more there is to do in it. +But when you were a pop singer were you happy as a pop singer? +I was happy as pop singer, the last couple of years I wasn't happy when I ceased to be a pop singer and I was er headed on a road of being an entertainer. +I could not be happy doing that, but as a pop singer I was in my element, because really all I d I didn't even think of it as singing, I thought of it, when I performed on stage as a pop singer I just thought of of it really of making love to the audience. +That's all I though of it about, I saw it as a really as er each stage performance was like an orgasm. +Just like girls were there, I was there and it was making love, that's all I saw it as. +And it was a,whe when it then became more respectable, I lost interest in it. +But gosh they were tuneful songs weren't they? +They were fabulous songs, they were great. +You know and I and I've only recently really come to terms with how much tha those early songs were part of people's upbringing and because of Love Hurts and everything people come up to me a lot in the street and we talk about the sixties and everything. +And you realize that maybe they made love first time to What Do You Want, they had their first kid to Poor Me, they they bought their first house to Someone Else's Baby, I mean there's fantastic memories, and that carries o , and I carry all that now. +And for years I sort of just dismissed it as a sort of thing I did in my past. +Er maybe it's just gotta do with maturing and growing up, I think I've started to grow up finally. +Th the strange thing is about many of those songs, the shortness of them. +Yeah they were so short +I mean +What Do You Want you know was the shortest number one in history. +One +Yeah. +thirty two or something. +And Tim told me it was in the Guinness Book of Records. +This is the shortest number one. +Just that one +Most cost effective number one ever recorded. +If you think about it Adam, one minute thirty two seconds. +It's remarkable. +And it becomes number one, and it makes a lot of money for everybody and it makes everybody hum and it makes everybody toe tap +Yeah. +one minute thirty two seconds . +I know. +From Micky who's one of the most successful record pro producers that has ever been, he said if you haven't got an audience in the first thirty seconds you ain't got the audience. +Yeah but you usually +do it in ten seconds. +Yeah. +Yeah, so you'd be if you're making records you'd better made it count early on. +There re is a lot of truth in that. +Yeah. +And they were really just yours. +You didn't seem to copy anybody, er +a lot of people copied you of course, but you +Well I didn't know anything about any none of us knew anything about anybody in those days, cos it was so early on in the, and we weren't, I was influenced more by people like blues er black blues singers, American blues singers like Muddy and Lightning , all those old blues,, er they were the heroes for me that I grew up with playing skiffle and and then Lonnie became my first Lonnie became by first hero and I er modelled a lot of my early singing on Lonnie. +And then when I came to What Do You Want it was like an whole new world had opened up to me. +It's exciting. +Couldn't ha taken too long to learn at one minute thirty two seconds and +No. +two minutes twelve seconds could they ? +It didn't take a lot of learning . +But you had to get every word right of course. +Yeah. +There weren't many words in one minute thirty two seconds . +No. +Night Must Fall, the first er the first play that you did,w was it er were there was there any difficulty at all? +I mean was there any difficulty learning lines, was there any difficulty walking on stage, acting the part, being an actor, because Adam Faith the pop singer may have brought them in but then he was forgotten on stage wasn't he ? +Yeah. +Well I think I had more problems when I was making films as a pop singer, because I was still pop singing as well and it was difficult to disassociate the two. +When I decided to cut myself off totally and become an actor, it started to get easier. +And that four years in rep, I sort of basically learn , I learnt the basics of the trade. +And I think if any performers know any where they may find problems is if they're still very much involved in the music industry, because it becomes a sort of er a diversionary activity. +It's a full time commitment er t and you if you are very if if you are er like say it's so all the time, it's difficult for her then to cease to be that, to be somebody else. +So she would have to she was to given up her career in acting, she may have to take a view and give up singing totally for a while. +Just so she can change her perception of it all. +You see it's quite difficult. +So you seem to cut yourself off from anything you've done before to concentrate on what +Yeah. +you're doing and yet you're doing this tour of Alfie, which is obviously very important to us in the +Yeah. +region, er a and you've produced this er music thing, so the very thing you you say y you've got this album and you're doing your acting bit. +Yeah, I'm doing both in . +Er now I think that's er that's a lot to do with experience. +I think because I was so inexperienced in the sixties, er I don't think I could have coped with doing two things. +As you get older and you get more experienced of it you know you y you begin to realize that, I mean this album, I've done this album and I haven , I've haven't just sung on this album and made sounds, which is what I did with What Do You Want, I've sung on this album and said something. +So in a way it's not unlike working on the stage in a play. +Er because having written half the songs as well, the lyrics all mean something so I may as well have spoken them as sung them. +Now one of the things th we find that when we play an Adam Faith record, we tend to be singing it for the rest of the day you know, like What Do You Want +don't start me on that, I'll be doing it in about two hours' time. +Do you? +Do I play my old songs ? +Do you no do you sing to yourself? +Do you sing those those, I still call 'em fabulous songs? +Yeah. +No I don't sing I don't sing those songs. +You don't sing to yourself What Do You Want? +No. +I don't. +Fool Me. +No I don't. +Someone Else's Baby? +No I sing the new album. +It's the first time I've actually, well cos I haven't sung for a long time. +But this new album, er I've become er obsessed by it because I'm so excited, er cos I think it's actually some of the best work I've ever done. +Acting or singing. +So +Do you have to be so enthusiastic about everything you do? +Er w is it is it a bore? +It's lovely no, it's it's +Er +it's it's good to hear. +Because it's so exciting. +You know I pl I I started this album really I started writing it while I was doing Love Hurts in Israel and Zoe would s sort of catch in the caravan, what the hell are you doing now, you know I was writing lyrics and thi , and I started to get keyed into this album just before I finished Love Hurts. +And I had a couple of months making it and god, it was such a wonderful time I had and writing the lyrics and saying things about love and feelings that have meant something to me over the years. +Er then I can't help getting enthusiastic about it. +Alright. +Let's talk about Alfie. +Erm is it the film on stage? +No, it's definitely not the film on stage. +Er Mike said in his autobiography that when they got the play and converted it to film, they changed the age of the character for a start, cos in the play it was written in the late fifties by Bill and it was written for a man approaching his forties. +Well in the fifties, forty years of age was hugely old, I mean my dad at forty when I remember back was like a really old man at forty in those days. +And so when they changed the character to be twenty five in the film which w Mi Mike 's age, it totally changed the piece, totally and completely changed the piece. +And it became er I think more people's perception of it now is that it's like a bloke bonking birds on stage, it's nothing like that. +It's about really the tragedy of a man who's too old to change and too stupid to realize he needs to. +A character part for you. +Oh wow, a character part for me. +It's a wonderful part,it's a great part. +And it's a it's an a wonderful play to go and watch. +I mean I sometimes when I'm performing on stage and people are laughing so much in the audience I think god, you know why can't I go and sit in the audience and watch this, they're laughing so much. +And in the last twenty minutes of the play they get a emotional kick in the stomach and it's gut wrenching. +And the way Bill writes about the tragedy of one of the women in the play is just remarkable. +It's a wonderful play. +Does it move you playing it? +It moves me playing it and it upsets me playing it, it's very upsetting to play Alfie, because A he's such a disastrous man as a person d you know you think oh god I don't really wanna be playing this man for sixteen weeks but the part is so wonderful and the play is so rich that you can't help s sort of s submitting to it and putting yourself in the position of being a masochist I suppose. +The audience go out then very moved? +Yeah they go in and they're laughing they're l they're laughing like mad for so long and it's so funny. +And then they get this terrible jolt and er they come out with a totally different perception of what this play is than than they went in with. +It's a it's a grea it's a great play, I've seen it performed by other people and it's a great evening. +I don't say because I'm in it, it's just a wonderful play. +You're at a stage now in your career where surely you can choose whatever you want to do? +Well I can choose what I don't want to do more than what I can do, that's easier to you know. +I can choose not to do things that don't excite me, but fortunately things are happening that do you know. +I mean I could choose not to do an album, but when they asked me to an album that was exciting to say yes. +I could choose not to do Alfie, but I wouldn't I'd never refuse to do Alfie, I'd like to be fifty years younger so I could play Alfie for another fifty years. +That's interesting. +So er how far ahead do you do you plan? +Well I'm planned now until December next year. +Er I do a plug the alb of the album Midnight Postcards we call it, I'm plugging that now until Christmas, promoting that er on television and radio, and I er in between I go on a short holiday to Africa and then January I start Alfie until May, and then I think I'm gonna do a T V movie or a movie in June July, and then in end of July I go to America for four four till the end of November with Alfie. +We're gonna take Alfie to L A and do it in L A for three months. +Have you b played in America before? +No never played never played in America. +No not in the theatre. +What about what about +Well I did the odd movie bits in America, and er when I was a pop singer had a record in the charts in America but never done a play there. +It'll be interesting. +It'll be interesting to see how Alfie of course works in America. +You're very intense on everything you do. +Intense about this new album, intense about Alfie, intense about about your life as well. +Yeah. +Er would you never appear in anything flippant, anything trivial? +Ooh yeah, well I would er I would er I wouldn't appear in anything trivial, no I wouldn't I wouldn't consciously wanna appear in anything trivial. +I wouldn't mind appearing in, I'd like you know one of the things I'd really love to do is a er comedy. +Like a . +The character I would've liked to have played more than anything else if it had ever been you know, if there was one going now would be Rigsby in Rising Damp. +I love that character and I would have loved to have played that character, but I don't think anybody it for you +take this album maybe the end of next year +But you do realize you would be lynched if you didn't do Poor Man, +I would do Poor Man all +Someone Else's +that of course I'd do What Do You Want. +Er because it would be stupid for me go on stage singing and not do a selection of all those songs that th they're the reason I'm here. +But er but it's changed hasn't it? +changed but life changes. +But you see they want you to hear, they want to hear you do all of your standard Adam Faith hits. +Yeah. +Erm but it's changed that you wouldn't get your clothes ripped off any more. +No. +Because that did happen to you didn't it? +Yeah. +I liked that bit the best. +You like that bit? +Yeah. +I liked that. +When they stopped pulling my clothes off that's when I packed up singing. +Is that what it was? +Yeah definitely . +Yeah. +Sounds as though it was very expensive because the clothes you wore must have been +It was worth it. +Was it? +Believe me. +Oh. +Oh. +So the thrill you get now is +Thrill I get now? +is having an audience there +Yeah. +watching you +Yeah. +and being moved by what you're interpreting on the stage? +Yeah. +Yeah and er look I think the process is that you do work and you feel passionate about it, you wanna do it the best you think you've done it as well as you can do it, and then you put it out in whatever form, in a T V series like Love Hurts or on stage like Alfie, or in an album like Midnight Postcards and you then just pray and hope that people want to listen to you, want to watch you, want to hear you. +That's what you pray for. +Because what's the point in doing no matter how good you think you're doing, what's the point of doing it for yourself in the living room, you want er everybody to listen to it. +You want that's what you're doing it for is hopefully so other people'll appreciate it. +Our special guest Adam Faith, he's in Alfie, which is at Nottingham's Theatre Royal on the twenty eighth of March next year and the box office has just opened so can actually er go there to see not just a performance I think, not just a play, but something of an event. +But we'll finish off with erm Adam's enthusiastic er er new album. +You you pick a track. +Er well y I pick one that might be too long for you so pick Roxy Roxy which I love. +quite a thrill having Adam Faith on the programme actually for me, for a lot of different reasons. +But Roxy er Roxy that was from his new C D Midnight Postcards and er he's going to be at Nottingham's Theatre Royal March the twenty eighth next year in Alfie, coming well ahead of it to tell us about it, and that's going to be a blockbuster I think next year, and then goes on to Los Angeles. +Lucky Adam Faith. +Er right well let's get back to erm er er other things. +And Bargain Basement it is now. +Er ha programme of changing facets this programme. +Bargain Basement, items for sale, five pounds or under, if you want an item call us on please. +We start in Lincolnshire at Skegness with Mick , what ya selling? +Greenhouse heater Dennis. +How much? +Fiver. +On paraffin? +No electric. +Electric? +Electric it's +Right. +thermostat controlled, it conforms to British Standards, it's waterproof, it's everything. +it's only suitable for a greenhouse. +I've +moved on to more sophisticated mist sprays and everything and that's the only reason I'm selling it. +Electric greenhouse heater, thermostatically controlled, a fiver at +Yeah. +Skegness. +Thanks a lot Mick. +Okay. +Bye. +Bye. +Gotta be a bargain that I think. +Electric er thermostatically controlled greenhouse heater for a fiver at Skegness. +Call us . +Brian of Ratheby by Sp . +Oh hello Dennis. +Yes Brian. +I've got a large carrying case for an electronic organ keyboard er I want to sell, it's it'll take a keyboard erm forty one inches long by forty inches wide and four and a half inches deep and it's all sort of shaped inside with the lining to to the shape of the keyboard and nice strong box. +Lashes and carrying handles and everything. +How much? +Er fiver. +An electronic organ carrying case. +Yeah. +And it'll carry an organ forty one inches by forty four by four and a half deep. +Yeah, and there's a little side pocket in there as well you can keep I suppose you keep leads and things like that in it as well. +A fiver at Ratheby by Spilsby. +Yeah. +Thanks a lot Brian. +Okay thank you . +Bye bye. +Good 'un that Ratheby by Spilsby. +Brian's selling an organ electronic organ carrying case for a fiver, forty one by forty by four and a half it'll take. +Mary of Lincoln. +Hallo Dennis. +Yes Mary. +Oh, er first of all I enjoyed that record of Adam Faith's. +It was good wasn't it? +It was good. +I'm +Yeah. +a fan of his. +Oh good. +Erm I'm selling er a lady's dark brown real suede full length er warm pile lining coat, in lovely condition. +Do you know the size? +Twelve to fourteen. +How much? +A fiver. +A lady's full length dark brown suede coat, size twelve to fourteen, five pounds at Lincoln. +That's right Dennis. +Thanks Mary. +Thank you bye . +Bye love. +Again another bargain from Lincoln. +Mary's selling a full length lady's dark brown sue real suede coat, a fiver. +Just a fiver. +Give us a ring if you want it. +Er Jackie of Methringham. +Hello, hello Dennis . +Yes J yes Ja +I've got er a radiogram. +Good working order? +Oh yes, it's perfect. +Erm it's a few years old but it's hardly had any use. +How much? +Erm five pounds +its er about four feet long and it stands about two feet high, it's on legs, it takes quite a lot of room up and we need the space. +radiogram +Yeah. +four feet long, two feet high, +Yeah. +perfect working order, five pounds from Metheringham. +Yes. +Thanks Jackie. +Thank you bye bye . +Bye love. +for that. +Into Leicestershire now and George of Barwell. +Hello Dennis. +Yes George. +I've got two dark solid wood folding chairs, new, unused, five pounds each. +Ah yo er well you can only go to five pounds the two on here. +Oh just for one then. +Make it one,o one dark solid wood +Alright okay. +A dark solid wood folding chair a fi a fiver at Barwell and it's new . +folding chair new it ye . +Thank you. +Right thanks a lot. +Thank you. +A dark wood folding chair, new from Barwell for a fiver. +Call us on please. +Kerry of Desford. +Hello Dennis. +Yes Kerry. +Erm I've got a nearly new gentleman's beige suit. +It's erm thirty six inch waist, forty chest and twenty nine inside leg. +A fiver please. +A nearly new gent's beige suit. +Yeah. +Thirty six waist,d you say thirty six waist ? +Thirty six yeah. +Forty chest, twenty nine inside leg, a fiver. +Yes please. +Thanks a lot Kerry. +Thank you. +Bye. +Bye. +From Desford that's gent's suit nearly new, a fiver, beige, and it's thirty six chest, forty inch er thirty six waist, forty inch chest, twenty nine inside leg. +Barbara of Sileby. +Hello. +Yes Barbara. +Er I used to collect the Cat Stevens' L Ps and I've got one for sale. +Which one? +It's Buddha and the Chocolate Box. +Buddha and the Chocolate Box? +Yes. +How much? +Two pounds. +Perfect working order? +Yes. +Right, Cat Stevens L P, Buddha and the Chocolate Box, two pounds from Sileby. +Thanks Barbara. +Thank you. +Bye love. +Bye. +for that. +Cat Stevens L P, Buddha and Chocolate Box from Sileby, two quid. +Into Derbyshire now and Dawn of Littleover. +Hello er Dennis. +What you got? +I've got a lady's shell jacket, you know th like a shell suit but it's just the jacket separate. +Size? +Erm twelve to fourteen. +It was fifteen pound new I want a fiver for it. +A lady's shell jacket, +Yeah. +size twelve to fourteen, it cost fifteen and you want a fiver. +Yeah. +Thanks a lot Dawn. +Right. +Bye +Bye. +From Littleover, Dawn offering that lady's shell jacket, size twelve to fourteen, lady's shell jacket size twelve to fourteen, cost fifteen and she wants a fiver. +please. +Fred will you put the light on? +Beatrice of Alveston. +Hello there. +Who're you bossing? +My husband. +Poor devil. +Poor devil. +Tell him to join the society which I'm starting up after the programme. +Are you? +Yes. +Well y y you know you sometimes say will you mind turning the wireless down,an I remembered that it was on. +Well the way you ordered him, that was a +What ya selling? +Erm boy's bicycle. +Age? +Boy's rac racing bike. +Racing bike. +Age between eight and twelve. +Good working order? +Oh yes good working order. +Everything good about it but the tyres, it might need new tyres on now. +Boy's racing bike, eight to twelve ye +Yes but the bike itself is in very good condition. +Yeah. +Boy's racing bike, eight +to twelve +eight to twelve +good working order but the tyres might need attention +That's right. +and how much, fiver? +Five pounds. +Five pounds alright . +Yes. +Thanks a lot. +Right. +Thank you. +Bye Beatrice. +Bye. +the number to ring there if you want that boy's racing bike, eight to twelve year old for a fiver, but the tyres might need er might need renewing. +Jackie of Allenton. +Hi Dennis. +What ya got? +Erm I've got a Readers Digest, it's a large hardback book er Complete Guide to Sewing, it's a A to Z, it's got all the sewing essentials and also for making household items and toys and clothes and everything, er for a fiver. +How much was it new, do you know? +It was about thirty five pound new. +Thirty five? +Yes. +Was it? +Yeah. +Oh dear. +It's got everything you can think of in it for sewing and that you know so +Okay alright Jackie. +Thanks a lot love. +Okay, bye. +Jackie's at Allenton, and it's the Readers Digest A to Z Guide to Sewing and a lot more things as well. +Cost thirty five pounds new, Jackie wants a fiver for it. +Readers Digest A to Z of Sewing Guide, lots of other things as well for a fiver, it cost thirty five quid. +, into Nottingham and Eric of well it's Derbyshire, Ilkeston. +Yes Eric. +Er I've got some home brew bottles for sale. +How many? +Er thirty. +Thirty home brew bottles. +And I want a fiver please. +Fiver. +Alright thanks a lot Eric. +And the phone number is . +. +Thank you Eric. +Thank you. +Bye. +Bye. +Eric's at Ilkeston, and wants to sell thirty home brew bottles for five pounds. +Phone if you want them. +. Lindsay of Baseford. +Hello. +Yes Lindsay. +Yes I've got a boy's erm black coat, size thirty, very good condition. +Size thirty? +Yeah it's a boy's. +Black? +Yeah. +Padded black jacket. +Black jacket? +Yeah. +A boy's black jacket, what age? +Er it's about eight year old. +Eight year old? +Yeah. +Alright. +A boy's black jacket, size thirty for an eight year old, how much? +Five pounds please . +Five pounds. +Thanks a lot love. +Right thank you, bye. +Bye. +for that boy's black jacket, for an eight year old, size thirty, for a fiver, it's at Baseford, Nottingham, call us on if you want that. +Ways from Buddy Holly. +Erm for sale, for the Ted Heath Band at the Royal Concert Hall this Friday, one pair of box tickets, cost twelve fifty each, will accept twenty quid for the pair. +Phone Nottingham. +One pair of tickets for Ted Heath, they cost twenty five, will accept twenty, for this Friday, phone . +Just a mention about the Good Old Days Quiz Book, a B B C publication which is at your local B B C radio station, costs three pounds for one thousand questions, don't be without it this Christmas, and it does make a lovely Christmas present as well. +Getting some nice letters about the Good Old Days Quiz Book, don't miss it, you local B B C radio station, it's also on sale at er bookshops throughout the East Midlands and at the Row Library in Nottingham they've told me to say as well. +Three pounds, I'm doing two signings, one is this Sunday at the Radio Lincolnshire Open Show, I'll be there on Sunday from two till four signing the Good Old Days Quiz Book, two till four this Sunday at Radio Lincolnshire's Open Day and on Wednesday December the eighth I'll be at at Nottingham, and doing a signing there for the Good Old Days Quiz Book, B B C publication. +You can get it by post at three pounds fifty by post, send a cheque or postal order made payable to the B B C for three pounds fifty, we'll sent it b , I'll send it by post to you and send it to Afternoon Special,, Derby, Leicester, Lincoln or Nottingham if you want the Good Old Days Quiz Book by post. +Big charity night, Thursday the twenty fifth of November at the Polish Centre, Street, Loughborough. +Seven forty five, there's Lazy Daisy Country and Western, Pat on the flute, Charlie lovely comedian, Malcolm on the organ but tickets are three pounds fifty, you can get them Mr at . +. Norman of Leicester. +Norman. +Hello Dennis. +Er it's Norman the town crier at Leicester. +Yes. +You remember, I've met you on various +How are you? +Well? +Not bad are you? +Yes I'm hoping you're gonna help me. +I've got a very awkward er predicament I find myself in. +Go on then Norman. +I do a lot of talks for groups and clubs and organizations on the history of town crying and my own experiences, all for charity. +And in my diary I've got one for tomorrow night, for an organization called the Judges Guild in Leicester, somewhere in the Road area. +Unfortunately I don't think they haven't confirmed as they usua most organizations usually do about a week beforehand er by phone, to make sure it's alright, and I've lost their letter. +And so I'm not sure where it is, what time it is I don't have no contact for it to get in touch with, and I'm wondering if anybody, any of your listeners either members or know of the Guild. +I think they meet in the Road area and it's called the Judges Guild. +Oh dear. +The Road area. +I think that's where they meet, I mean they may come from all the place but it's the Judges Guild and I'm due to speak to them tomorrow night. +Right Norman, well let's put +You can appreciate the predicament I'm in. +Yeah we'll put the call out and see if anybody knows where you're speaking tomorrow night, Norman , town crier of Leicester, he's speaking at the Judges Guild but who, where, what, what time +the Judges Guild at Leicester in the Road area. +Let's hope someone calls and we'll put 'em in touch with you Norman . +Well I hope so. +Hang on, hang on give u +right +give us a blast go on. +Oyez,, Oyez, Oyez, greetings to all listeners to Afternoon Special and especially Dennis your regular host. +Oh dear you've ear you've earned your keep there. +We we'll do our best for you Norman. +Thank you very much. +Bye. +Bye bye. +Beautiful. +Norman , town crier of Leicester. +But where is he speaking tomorrow night? +At the Judges Guild at Leicester. +Road area somewhere, anybody know? +Quickly get in touch otherwise you won't get him. +To the news we go with with Wipe Out by the Safaris. +Hello Mary Lou from Ricky Nelson that one. +Join me John this afternoon, four thirty till seven, yes the Teatime Show here just after Dennis, the News, Weather, Travel, Sport, everything you need as we roll you home, and then six till seven in the Cultural Oasis. +Finally, we'll be talking to Paul about the best selling records of all time in the country, guess what's number one? +Well you might find out a little bit later on,an I'll also have live music on the show from the Old Vic in , Andrew 's gonna be down there with Edward , it's all to come. +And John invites you to Teatime just after four thirty. +Er Barry of Newark. +Barry. +Hallo Dennis how are you? +Alright. +What can we do for you? +Well er we're a little bit perturbed here all the er shopkeepers and the people here in the heart of Newark, er it's been put out on er Nottingham Radio that er Newark is actually closed to people. +Eh? +Can you believe that? +Mind you, mind you I went er through Newark the other day and I had to go round the mountains to get back on that road out to Lincoln. +Yeah. +With all the closures that there are. +Yes, getting through Newark er can be a bit of a problem because of that er huge roundabout they've dug up right in the centre, but er coming into Newark and going back out again is no problem whatsoever. +You know, parking here in Newark, there are plenty of parking spaces and all the shops are open and we're all ready to bustle but no one to bustle to. +Wh now what what do you say we're saying? +Yo you're saying that Newark is actually closed, don't go to Newark because er of the roadworks, it's er it's closed. +We never said that . +Yeah it's been given out on the radio today Dennis. +Or words to that effect. +Which programme has said that Newark was closed? +Oh I I can't pinpoint the actual programme, it's just er what people are telling me has been st er stated on Radio Nottingham. +I think we're warning about that er roundabout +Yeah +I mean that is pretty horrendous +It is it is, and a bit of an eyesore, we're all +how long's it gonna be, when's it gonna be f ? +Well I reckon it's gonna be December the twelfth before they're actually finished. +So at least least for Christmas it's gonna be done for your Christmas trade? +Well er I mean Christmas trade starts as of +Of course it does. +a couple of weeks back Dennis as you know +people are shopping already and normally on a Wednesday we we're we're really bustling, it's our busiest day of the week. +But today it's like a ghost town. +We need you to tell people to come back into Newark, don't be afraid of the of the works. +Okay well +Getting in and out is no problem. +Alright let's get the message out then. +Yeah. +You're saying that there is no traffic problem in Newark, +Going through it er would be a problem, going through Newark actually going through you have to go round a system as you as you quite rightly said. +Right. +But coming in and going back out again is no problem, from any direction. +And parking? +Parking's fine. +Absolutely fine. +I mean normally er this morning for instance, normally I park on the big car park down near the the river there, +Yeah. +and er normally on a Wednesday morning that's quite full. +This morning there were three cars besides myself and that frightened me to death being a trader . +Mm. +We like to see the people here. +You know the the new ring road that that escapes +Yeah +Newark altogether and takes +yeah +you out to Lincoln and so on +yeah yeah +has that made any difference to trade? +Er not not really because it doesn't sp stop the people coming into Newark that were coming anyway. +You know, it doesn't seem to have affected in that erm respect, no. +Now wait a minute, er I've just had er er the presenter in who's given +Yeah +me the actual thing of what we're saying. +yeah. +Now you tell me if this is wrong. +Alright? +Right. +Yeah. +Right. +Major work continues in Newark town centre with the closure of part of in the Beesmarket Hill area of the town. +Right. +Diversions means that delays are likely. +Now that was actually said this morning. +Got ya. +Is that wrong? +No as far as I can re er as far as what's been stated to me, I haven't heard the broadcast myself because I'm here from early morning onwards, +Sure, sure. +as you can appreciate, it's just what people are saying to me who who actually have come into Newark, they're +But is +saying oh we've warned er not to come in because of the roadworks. +But is that wh is that correct? +Major work continues in Newark town centre with the closure of part of in the +That's right. +Beesmarket Hill area of the town, +Yeah that's perfect +diversions means that delays are likely. +Yeah, diversions coming through the town, yes . +Yeah, but not not going to. +No going in and coming out again, there isn't a problem. +Okay alright. +Well that's actually what we said so we did not say, and I +No I appreciate that. +I'm not blaming you, but +No. +whoever told you was wrong +Yes. +we did not say that Newark was closed, I +couldn't imagine us saying Newark was closed. +No i it's it's the er you see, people read into it what they want to read and er if they +Yes they do, yes they do +hear of major works causing a problem in Newark, we won't both going, we'll go to Lincoln or or elsewhere . +That's right, that's right, that's right. +Mm, so in Newark +carry on to coming into Newark. +going into Newark +yeah +er n going through Newark there are difficulties. +There are difficulties if you're actually travelling through Newark. +But going into Newark for shopping, there are no difficulties there's +None whatsoever. +plenty of parking, parking spaces and everything . +Plenty of parking sp plenty of shops ready to do business Dennis, that's what we're here for. +Alright. +Wh now what's your business? +Er I do er I'm in the Butter Market, I have an antique stall in the Butter Market here in the heart of Newark. +An antique stall? +Yeah. +You got anything good? +Oh loads, loads of it. +All for sale. +What's what's what's the most expensive item? +Oh er there's no real expens the probably the most expensive is five and a half hundred. +For what? +That's for a Capodimonte man with a horse quite attractive . +Really so it's still fetching money p Capodimonte real stuff? +Capodimonte has always been collectable Dennis, it's never gone, never gone down in in popularity. +The only problem is of course that a lot of er sort of Capodimonte copies, +Yes +imitations +yes you want stamped signed pieces with a certificate to say +Do you +what they are yeah. +Do you know? +I'm not that er good at it er as far as that's concerned, I can normally tell, but I wouldn't class myself as an expert in Capodimonte. +If I have a problem then I can take it elsewhere and find out for sure. +Okay. +What's the l least expensive item on your on your sh ? +Couple of quid. +For what? +Oh for a a Wade er little Wade Whimsy or er er a handmade glass animal +Mhm. +type thing. +And are you still looking for the thing where you go and buy and you give a fiver and it's worth +a dream Dennis +five million. +It's a dream. +Is it? +Yeah. +It does still occasion look at that Constable the other day. +You see there +Fantastic. +may be a series of Constables are out there, water colours +those have got be somewhere. +That's right. +That's right. +Bought for about bought for thirty quid and worth thirty thousand each . +Yeah absolutely, if only. +Well it's gonna happen though hasn't it? +I'd be set for life if something like that happened. +Would it? +Do you ever go to the erm er to the Winthorpe, to to the big Newark erm antique show? +Yes every time it's on. +Isn't that fantastic? +Oh it's brilliant. +When you get three thousand stalls all set up and +It's another world +Yeah it's amazing. +I=n' it? +It's amazing yes. +It's another world. +Yeah it's +Have you +it's lovely. + +When it said about erm when she said about Alice went to Florida +Yeah? +and says erm we've not been talking to her it sa she's not the one to write. +Yeah. +But I think it, you know, the fact that she isn't wri that's nothing unusual is it? +Not as far as I'm concerned. +On her Christmas card I told her I was anxious to hear about her trip but there was no reply . +But er when she says I'm not talking to her she means she hasn't spoke to her over the telephone +Yeah. +so it's erm there's nothing, you know, about that er she's quiet anyway in't she? +Well if Shirley and Marguerite are off to Florida they could be there now couldn't they? +they said February. +Well if they're going in t if they'd two weeks in February, this was written in January they're probably there now. +We might er we might get a card from her +Hello +wrong number on the phone? +Yeah. +Said the erm wind chill factor is twenty two below so that's wind chill factor, that means it's not that temperature otherwise when there's a you know the, the gale force wind or erm +It's twenty two below from thirty two +Mm. +it's twenty two so that means that it's ten degrees ten above zero. +Mm. +That is very cold. +Yeah. +It says wish you could see the shots John has taken. +He carries a portfolio with him when he goes out to work he has them blown up . +He goes out to work, that means he's going round to the various houses and +Yeah. +and taking photographs of the erm rooms before he does all the changing I suppose? +Yeah absolutely. +The upholstery and the curtains and whatever +It doesn't show it on this but you see there's two zeros, there's your freezing mark there right? +Yeah. +Yeah. +That's thirty two. +Yeah. +Now down here, under the ten +Well look what's +there's another zero +what's that twenty two there? +Is that the bottom of the er gauge? +Bottom of the scale, yeah. +So they couldn't get much colder? +No. +No but when they say when they say i it's twenty twenty below, it's twenty below that zero there, see there's ten +Oh yeah I realize that. +Yes I realize that. +But erm twenty, twenty two below you know it's +Well I've been in eighteen below zero +I know so have I. +and that that +So have I, it was eighteen below when we was there that time. +I remember eighteen below. +And I'm telling you, boy that is cold. +I know . +Mind you there's a difference between below zero and below freezing. +Yeah. +I realize that. +Er n back to these snaps that erm John takes but as I said they're pictures of the rooms before he alters them, before he puts in a new decor,th the upholstery, furnishings and the erm +Well he alre he already deals in curtains +er curt drapes +and drapes. +Yeah well he probably does the soft covers and what not +Yeah. +you know? +But er but when Marguerite says she's thinking of having a couple for her living room that can't be pictures of somebody else's room she's putting up, he must be taking snaps. +Er the hunting snaps they're on about. +Oh the hunting snaps. +The deer. +Well it didn't mention that though did it? +It just said he carries a portfolio and he, you know, when he goes out to work. +I imagine he's had an enlargement of the deer he killed. +Yeah. +I didn't realize Harry was that age. +Cos I forget that he's that much older than you. +Who was? +Ha +When are you gonna start learning to play Chinese patience? +I haven't got the patience. +Well you could learn. +It's not a game I can play on my own. +It's quite a good game actually. +Next time you get the cards out we'll have, we'll try it. +Either that or American gin rummy. +Alright? +So you say. +Well it'd be a change from cribbage wouldn't it? +Oh can't beat cribbage. +Ah maybe not but it'd be a change. +One of these afternoons when it's cold and wet we'll get the cards out and play Chinese patience. +Alright? +Yeah. +Good. +Right. +Have you got enough there? +I should think so,providing that 's not too loud. +Right I was just reading here about about er er the funeral in Northern Ireland and the minister wouldn't let the erm flag draped coffins of two I R A go into the church with the insignia and whatever on top of the coffins there. +And then there's one about the erm a protestant pastor blamed the seventeen year old death, that fellow that, that young man in the video shop that was erm shot down the father blamed the British government. +He said if the, if he, he was shot dead at a Belfast video shop, he said if this was happening in England or on the streets of London the response of the government would be totally different well it has happened in London. +It has happened in London, what about all the shootings and bombings? +Oh er er I understand, yeah. +I wonder if they can deduce what that is? +Just reading here where it says that erm B and Q they're having a slanging match with Texas cutting all their prices paints tools they're trying to outdo them with the prices. +They've got the whole page in the paper. +They'll be throwing rocks at each down here at Fleets Bridge. +Look it says here that bridging the Watford Gap. +Two families discover how the divide between the north and the south is narrowing . +Now Northampton is twenty one miles from Bedford now we were never classed as living in the south when we lived there. +And yet +No. +they're saying Bedford is in the south. +Bedford is definitely not in the south. +Bedford is in the south midlands the same as Northampton was, and is, I should say. +And it says two families discover how the divide between the north and south is narrowing . +Bedford is not in the south! +Bedford is in the midlands, it's the south east midlands. +There is an imaginary line, or they used to call it from Birmingham to the Wash anything below that is the south. +Well it's not the south is it? +I mean to me they've, London is classed as the south. +Bedford is more south east. +It's south east midlands, it isn't the south east. +It's the, it's the south, southern midlands, south midlands. +It's twenty one miles from Northampton, they never cla I mean down here people think Northampton is in the north. +Northampton you see and they think it's up the north. +Well it is, hundred and forty three miles north of here. +Yeah it's not the north is it? +It's the, it's the south midlands. +It used to be the south east midlands, now it's classed as the south midlands but Bedford, twenty one miles along the road there, and they call it the south. +Well it certainly isn't. +Well where do these people live? +Well erm two families discover how the divide between north and south is narrowing and one lives at Wigan one family lives at Wigan and the other family, no er yeah the other family live at Bedford. +And two families discover how the the divide between the two is narrowing. +Yeah. +After three years of property slump in the home counties it has never been easier to leap over the Watford Gap by moving from the north to the south . +They're talking about the Watford Gap, not about Watford itself. +The Watford Gap is a service station isn't it, on the M one? +Yeah. +Watford is erm when you used to come out on the old +I know where Watford is. +I shall have to read it, it's about two families, they're changing directions. +There's another one here Knutsford, Stratford-upon-Avon, now +Yeah. +since when has Stratford on Avon been south? +That again you see Northampton lays be in the middle of those two, it's twenty one miles to Bedford one side and thirty miles to Stratford on Avon the other side. +And they class it as the south. +Bloody ridiculous. +Well it is, technically speaking, south of a +If you lived in +given point. +well if you lived in Scotland, Stratford on Avon is south, anywhere is south isn't it, in England? +I expect you'd say Stratford on Avon is south. +Mind you any, I wouldn't wanna move from Stratford on Avon if I lived there to go and live further north . +Stratford on Avon is a lovely place. +Quite expensive to live there I'd think. +Think the property's quite expensive. +But it's certainly a nice place to live. +Ah it would be because er you have to pay for being near the bard. +Oh I don't know about that. +No it's a pretty place. +see they've got Tina Turner tonight. +Tina Turner on the Wogan Show. +Have to watch that. +Kenny Everett, Lorna Luft +Oh Mary Mary will be pleased. +Erm Kenny Everett, Lorna Luft and Wayne Sleep. +Seven o'clock. +It clashes with Family Fortunes but I must remember to tape that mustn't I? +Put it on the video. +Which one? +Wogan with Gloria Hunniford. +Tina Turner +As long as it doesn't clash with +No +Brookie. +Oh no. +The only thing that clashes with that is eight o'clock Alf Garnett. +Who was that speaking then? +The announcer. +Well ha! +I meant who was it that was saying that it doesn't matter? +The priest. +So it he said it didn't matter even if it was rape, she's still got to have the baby, that it? +Yeah. +It's terrible isn't it? +Oh You switched it off did you? +Never touched it. +Oh. +Oh sport winter Olympics the first two runs on the four man bobsleigh which represents one of Britain's brightest medal hopes . +I think tonight though it's got to the women's figure skating championship. +Joanne Conway's gone back to to take part in it. +She came back home didn't she? +To be with her boyfriend. +Yes. +Catchword tonight is on at five O five instead of four o'clock because they've got sport on all afternoon. +Catchword? +Catchword's on at five O five it follows Countdown +Mm. +on a different station of course. +Yeah mustn't forget that, changed the time of that. +But they haven't said too much about it in the paper. +No I mean usually they show you on the T V when they're leaving don't they? +But I think they, they probably play it down a bit these days. +There's a picture of her here and er cheering Australians welcome the queen to Sidney with a banner proclaiming good day Betty Betty! +Can you imagine anybody here doing that to the queen? +Good day Betty, that just shows, doesn't it, how erm the sort of respect or disrespect, whatever you'd like to +Yeah. +call it, they have got for royalty because to call the queen Betty, she's smiling but I wonder if she feels like smiling. +It says thousands have packed city centre to cheer her and it said the fervour surprised republicans who have criticized the visit. +Yeah I suppose they will be a republic sooner or later, by the year two thousand probably. +Er ooh better make a move. +What do you want? +Well I don't know whether I want let's see what this is in this parcel that came this morning. +Right night over water music loves to dance,, ooh the Darling Buds of May is in here, that's nice isn't it? +Oh what is it? +Where is it? +Oh this is illustrated as well. +Look at the preface. +Yeah, this is illustrated. +Page four three three four three three oh the end of the book. +Look at that properly in a minute. +Free gift Do, throw away, do not eat, throw away d what's that supposed to be for then? +Let's have a look. +It just says throw it away do not eat it, well what's the object of it? +Desiccant silica gel, throw away +Yeah but what's the object of it, in, in there? +Why is it in there? +It don't say on the box? +No. +Nothing. +Right, let's see what this says. +Well that is, to me, absolutely stupid. +Yeah. +Throw away, do not eat. +Yeah but what I don't know why it's in there anyway. +What's the ob oh wait a minute, perhaps this is, tells you the attached carton the attached carton contains your surprise gift, a handsome acacia wood salt cellar made to a sturdy traditional design it's finished in an attractive shade that enhances the natural grain of the wood. +The cellar's chunky good looks make it equally at home in your kitchen, dining room or breakfast tray. +Free with your next value the matching pepper mill . +Mm doesn't say what it, the object of that is in the packet there. +Have to read this letter have to read this afterwards see what it says. +Right + +It's very much worth it d'ya know. +I think television would be as much to blame as any you know the bairns the children's programmes are all in English and so on you can. +It amazes me I hear Orkney children in Orkney and they'll be playing and talking to one another in English you know. +They'll be exclamations and things they're just exclamations that they've heard I think on television. +Yes I know that with mine it was American. +They used all these Americanisms because a lot of the problems were American. +Yes. +And the they used to when they would speak Orcadian among their their pals and then when they when they were playing games all the kids the Orcadian ones whether they were Orcadian or not would adopt this American drawl and they all spoke like that . +Yes of course maybe play acting when they're doing that they're more conscious of the way they're speaking and they probably want to make it right with what they think it should be. +And as I say I don't know what sort of things children watch on T V but it's all in English. +Did you find at school that your dialect was hammered? +Yes. +Er when I was young erm you know you didn't have to use dialect at all. +Er we got leave to use it in the playground as far as I can imagine but we made an awful division or if we didn't it pretty quickly in the class. +I can't remember which teacher it was referred to anything Orcadian we used as Orkneyisms. +And if you were used Orkneyisms you were a very poor scholar indeed. +I remember a wee boy in the class I was in in the primary school and he got a row he I remember him getting a row from the teacher and he s the teacher said what did you do wrong and he said oh I've gone and putten putten where I should've putten put +yes. +What was putten was that was that East Mainland? +No that's that's West Mainland too. +Putten and while am I putten nothing. +A putten something somewhere +Yes. +instead of put it somewhere. +Yes and we'd never use put. +Are there a lot of differences between the the East and the West Mainland? +Er quite a lot I think maybe. +Most would you know be in intonation and pronunciation. +To anybody who's used to listening to dialect the East and the West are very different. +All the parishes used to be different and it used to be possible at one time to know approximately where in Orkney somebody came from. +And this is still the case with older folk. +Many of the older folk if you get them really going in their own dialect you can just say roughly where they come from. +One of the common differences between East and West is the words like table and table in West we'd say table and East they'd say table. +And the West peal comes appeal and the West's heard becomes a heard and the one sort of difference that's still there and it may take quite while to go is that the East Mainland when they're saying a sentence they tend to go up at the end of the sentence the voice rises. +Whereas the West Mainland never goes really up at the end of the sentence or at least not to the same extent. +I can't make the East Mainland very well. +I would like to go to the town today , and she's awfully she's no the day and they tend to go up at the end. +And there's other wee things too. +Something that the East Mainland folk find awfully funny is the West Mainland call potatoes . +We don't go out to gather potatoes we go to hunt taters And the East Mainland don't say that at all they would call them more tatties or taties +I thought taties was north isles. +That's verging on north isles right enough. +Well Westray maybe has as distinctive a dialect as any apart from North Ronaldsay of course. +North Ronaldsay is in a class by it's own and easily recognizable. +But er I believe that at one time people from the islands settled in some of the farms for the East Mainland whether there's a similarity in the matter of table or heard and all these sort of things. +There is a similarity creeps in there whether that came with islands or whether it was there before I just don't know. +Because they table and heat instead of table and . +Yes. +It sound far more proper in the West Mainland then. +Well you could say that and yet we're awfully broad. +I would say in just a general accent the way we talk you know. +Birsay folk are always considered very broad and so are the Harray folk. +Maybe more so than say Sandwick and I find like Rendal folk you could tell some of them even yet. +I always think they have a very nasal pronunciation. +They seem to talk quite a lot up high in the in their nasal passages. +And Evie of course well Evie's great for sort of old fashioned exclamations you know. +They're great for that sort of thing. +And that's a good old Orkney word too. +Just as an exclamation and Evie folk would take it into their conversation I think even yet the older ones of them. +I've got a granny who comes from the south isles and she says and that's . +If you say something and she's surprised she'll say, oh . +Yes. +That's a thing I find that we're losing very much is all these exclamations and of course a lot of exclamations were calling on a divine hand of God to look after you. +I mean there's a whole range of exclamations that, bless me, or bless me as we would say. +And God and mercy me that was just have mercy on me. +And mine matey and bess be about me that was quite a long exclamation but it was something surprise them terribly, Oh bess be about me, just sort of, Oh God come to me help, sort of thing. +And the blessings on me, that was the thing that sort of for anybody who helped them. +It wasn't, Oh thank you very much I'm much obliged or anything like that. +It was, Be blessings on thee, I mean and may God bless you for the help you've given me. +And that's a common enough one yet. +Granny she says, My . +yes. +was a a very common one too. +You see you don't hear them any more. +Oh yes. +What was that supposed to mean? +Was it just +Oh just the same thing. +Just an exclamation. +And +I think would be more Scottish. +Was it bairns. +Oh yes bairns. +I I could not say it wasn't fairly common too but no maybe yes is a good one. +doing dialect there's still a things like the wireless and the weather things like that sometimes give it a personality as a . +My mother when she wanted anybody to turn off the wireless used to say . +Much to the amusement of two American girls who stayed with us because they didn't know what this phrase was I mean they couldn't have sort it out in the first place of what it meant. +When they had sort it out they just didn't know but they would go you know prancing around saying to one another saying then . +A lot of Orkney a lot of, I'm going to sneeze now, a lot of Orkney men use the word, She, +Mhm. +when they're referring to the tractor or the horse or the car +Mhm. +is that an Orkney way of doing it or is that just a sort of male thing? +Erm I've never really thought about it I think it's a male thing probably isn't it? +I think maybe English men would refer to their car as She or so on if they get to think you know they make things have personalities you start to give them personal pronoun there. +Or their boat you know boy she's +Yes. +boy she's no running right. +That's right. +The tractor's a she right enough very often. +And there's another sort of things now that we don't hear is when you sit down at the table to eat erm they're probably the most the hostess would say now would be, Help yourself. +But er there was a whole range of things like,Put in the hand and and erm they thought you weren't eating plenty or told to and supper. +Yes that's just an Orkney way of saying fall too. +Yes. +And Put in the hand just literally put your hand in and get something to eat. +Cos it makes for a lot of you know if you don't have and say well I'm not going to put in my feet anyway. +Yeah another thing that that old folk use I know that my granny used to say she'll say she'll turn things round she'll say, I'm having nothing with it to do, instead of, I'm no having anything to do with it. +Is that common? +Yes it's fairly common among older folk still. +We s tend to move the sentences around more and they lines sort of you know, Do you know where my shovel is,where my shovel is and erm, Who's the day, asking how are you. +That's from Shetland, Who's the day. +I know who's the day, yes just a similar similar phrasing. +The thou and the thee and the thines. +You've just said thou who's thou the day. +There are a lot of old folks still use that? +Oh yes it's quite common and common in middle aged folk even yet among people you're familiar with. +I mean even when I was small you wouldn't use thee and thou to an older person. +It was somehow thought of as being irreverent but to members of your own family and people your own age or somebody younger than you you would use thee and thou. +But if it was perhaps even a little one your own age if you didn't know them very well it would be you. +Thee and thou were s a term implied intimacy and affection and closeness the thee and thou as far as I always understood it. +And another sort of very close phrase that disappeared is is a phrase awfully much used. +Orcadian dialect it's often said has no words of endearment no dears or darlings but I think perhaps came as near to it as any word. +It was said to small children and maybe a young man would say it to his lass but always implied affection of something young and tender. +Yes I'd forgotten that. +Yes. +You said about West Mainland folk. +Well well just the different words it's really a matter of pronunciation. +Like in Harray we would say, up to go up and er the Deerness folk then would say, up or something like that, up. +And erm +It's just to go up. +Up yes mhm. +Up and up and er in Harray we'd say, wee that's just for us you know, we. +And I think the Deerness folk say,wey and we would call a young heifer a . +Whereas the Deerness people would call it a . +Just very similar the difference is there in the pronunciation. +But a completely different word would be the word for what's behind the cattle in the West Mainland it's a and in the East Mainland it's an or an . +I think that varies too from parishes to islands. +There is this just this slight difference in in the words. +I think I'm really sorry now is to see all the old words really going. +I don't think they'll be any left once the generation who were born before the war see are gone. +But we still have the dialect and the sort of tone of it and and phrasing of it but so much of the old vocabulary is just disappearing altogether. +I sometimes find myself using them yet long years you know when I thought I'd forgotten them and any younger person just looks at me in amazement and has no idea what I'm talking about. +Yes I remember my granny coming out with the word +Mhm. +and I hadn't a clue what that was. +sort of called a lot of things it was a fright or a flapping around or a haste or a, what did what did granny somet +Mm, We don't get enough she said. +yeah that's right aha. +Well I went into the shop in Harray very short ago. +I used to go to Orkney for to go and asked for some cardboard boxes only we call them pasteboard boxes. +And when the girl came with them I says I think I'll take them all if you can them. +And she looked at me and blinked her eyes I says you what means. +No she said. +And I says well it is two different meanings the one I'm using is just if you can spare it, if you can it. +And a of course is also what they used to get when you wanted to make mealy puddings you made them with the the intestines of an animal and that's also called a . +Well that's two that's a word with two meanings that's now just completely out of use more or less. +I haven't heard of that one either. +Mhm. +Oh you wouldn't . +No. +Yep. +Something I did think of when you mentioned about the the cattle dung that the word that we remember was . +Ah yes . +Well it can be inside but it's really outside and rotted. +Rotted wet cattle dung, it's no fresh cattle dung's never . +It's when you get this black really stinking rotten hole that you call it . +And that's what came out of the was the . +That's right. +What seeped out of the and mixed with some air from there would have been a little dung in it to it stood half the summer and got to be really high. +That was . +And heaven help you if you fell in the . +Yes that's how I remember it . +. +I did. +Yeah there's there's there's a whole lot of others that were in me head that I I meant to write down before you came in. +Mhm. +Oh you know it's all right. +There's erm +it's just that I like it you know . +Yeah. +Mhm. +So long as they understand that there's this also the erm you know er said to me, Oh it's just English sort of said differently. +I said well no really at all there's the whole vocabulary as well. +Which is the vocabulary is disappearing first and then I think maybe the actual intonations and phrases will disappear then too. +But it'll take quite a long time for them to go though. +But I do think the vocabulary will be lost very shortly now. +Something that I noticed is in the towns like Kirkwall and Stromness there's a kind of slovenly way of speaking Orcadian where they go butter water . +Yes that's very much Kirkwall I would say particularly. +There is a slight difference between Kirkwall and Stromn so Kirkwall's another place you the accent of a native born Kirkwallian unless you say the butter and water and things like that. +And Stromness accents no quite so easily picked out as Kirkwall but you know that they're from one of the two towns anyway usually. +I don't know if it's progressed into the villages. +I haven't noticed +No that's very much well very much Kirkwall I would say. +Has Kirkwall always been like that then? +Yes. +Oh yes. +I wondered about that. +Yeah I suppose in the country too there Kirkwall would have been the first Kirkwall or Stromness probably Kirkwall would have been the first place where the accents would have been going to go. +I would think so and the particularly the folk living in the towns consciously tended to use less Orcadian you know they they'd more dealings with folk from outside the islands for one thing and folk come on in off ships and so on. +And part of the reason of course the dialect is gone is that we unconsciously sort of translate what we're going to say into good English so that we're understood. +Because there are so many English folk now in every community and we do tend to sort of doctor up the language a bit you know when we talk to them. +Otherwise they just wouldn't understand us. +And some places that erm I know that in some places they have their own local way of speaking and then they speak a different way to other folk. +But then they lapse back into the local way of speaking when they're on their own. +But they don't seem to do that here. +Er not in Kirkwall you mean? +Yeah they they don't seem to like I I know that in Wick a lot of the folk in Wick have have two se they've got their own dialect and they've got English. +And in fact in some of the schools was here I know that Mrs Flaws erm from Wyre her idea at the school was to make Orcadian children bilingual. +Mhm. +And that they would have the the language that they spoke at home and the language that they spoke at school. +And that they found it easier when they that that English was English and Orcadian was Orcadian. +Yes. +Yes I see what you mean probably thou thought Wick's a strange dialect to you they relax it some more too. +You see it's really what happens to the older folk like me. +I never talk to anybody as I'm talking now even. +Er to me friends you know. +No it's a it's a totally different when +It's a +you're relax you speak in a totally different way. +Ye yes totally different way. +Aha. +Do you find that the school used to make you very inhibited about the way you spoke? +Oh yes when I went to Stronsay Academy first we were very much kids for the country being all this country ones and often we'd sometimes be and said some terribly wild and woolly awfully countrified phrase you know until pride sort of came to our rescue when we we got out of it as much as ever we could. +The Orkney word for what we were doing is chanting. +You know that of course if you chant . +Chanting's when you're talking to other Orcadians in your best English when there's really no need for it when you just want to show off that you're. +Here ago you see it implied that you were so much more learned and knowledgeable and clever if you could talk English. +And if you spoke English to a fellow Orcadian you were chanting. +Which was their sort of way of making fun of you because you were showing off which is what a native Orcadian thinks any of his contemporaries talking in English to anyone other than an English person. +They they're showing off. +Or did do mind you I I wouldn't think it now not for younger folk that's not the case but for the older folk it very much worse. +Do you think they're being slapped down over dialect? +Erm I must have gonna put yeah Do you think they're being slapped down over dialect at school? +Made Orcadians very reluctant to speak up in public? +Oh certainly. +In fact you couldn't adequately express yourself in English you were just better to shut up. +Do you think that's still predominant? +Oh no no. +I think young folk now are much more ready to express themselves and express themselves in public. +We were erm not given many opportunities to do that only through things well local clubs like the W R I and which er and in that way all Orcadians just trying to do our best together you know. +And the Young Farmers' Clubs were quite good for they encouraged speech making and how to express yourself lucidly and er how to speak nicely. +That was quite good. +But you see there was always this thought that it was always to better yourself that you were doing this that your Orcadian was just for home about and among yourselves and what it didn't really matter. +But if you really wanted to make an impression you had to get rid of this Orcadian fast. +For for visitors coming to Orkney do you think it that there's a happy medium?come to Orkney. +Is there a way of talking in your natural dialect that they can understand you and yet without losing it? +I don't really think there is. +I know some folk won't change for anybody they just go harping on in their dialect and er well this fellow said some visitors just don't understand him I always find myself translating in a situation like that. +They can't even pick up just the words that are English words only pronounced in the Orcadian way. +Like I'm +I'm gone to the shop. +Well just the intonation and the and the way you would say that they they can't pick it up. +The Shetlanders don't seem to do that to the same extent they don't seem to change their dialect. +No they're they're much better at keeping it and they seem to manage quite well too. +And yet doesn't Shetland doesn't seem so difficult to un maybe it's because we're Orcadian but Shetland doesn't seem to be so difficult to understand for somebody outside than Orcadian is I wonder why? +I think that's maybe because we're Orcadian for no matter how good we're feeling if we go you know that yourself if you go south anywhere and you meet up with just anybody that's ever heard an Orcadian. +Well my you come from Orkney. +You think that's especially true and like say Aberdeen if you go in a shop there and and, at least it used to be the case, and asked for something you be thought you were speaking fine but they would just say, Oh my you down from Orkney for a holiday? +You know right away picked you up right away. +Did folk often used to accuse you of being Welsh? +Qui quite frequently Welsh and once German . +Yes I often used to be accused of being Welsh but it is different. +It's different but erm if you really get an Orkney talker just talking to one another and er drawing out the words sometimes and so on it can get to be the same lilt as Welsh. +And probably to a you know to an untutored ear it would sound reasonably similar. + +That er it should be any account for a pension fund should carry the name of pension fund and any transactions involved with pension fund money wh it should be a duty of the Financial Institution to make sure that any account they were paying money into was a pension fund account. +If I may say so the key point isn't it that a lot of the transactions you discussed were off market transactions, they were unusual transactions and the Financial Institutions that were carrying out those transactions whether they were acting as banker or acting a as broker, they would have had knowledge that those transactions were not normal market transactions. +So if the law was clear that in those circumstances they should have been on notice and should have therefore watched where the money was going, there wouldn't have been a problem and are we not saying that legitimate stock lending which I think is what is about is suggesting, if carried on properly on the market, would be all right, but if it immediately goes off market into the back doors and back rooms and people can't see what's going on and the Financial Institutions take part in that, then they are doing something that un undoubtedly is probably going to cause loss to pension funds and shouldn't there be a clear law which makes them liable in those circumstances. +No you were saying weren't you? +Oh I'd say it is +Yes. +wrong anyway in that er I'll say it's the er early on it in the report Good defines what he determines a prus trustees duty and as I said to a sort of effectively orb enter into a tr transaction which immediately cost effecting kind of money rather than making money for the pension fund er is against that duty in the first place, but it to it should however be ma made explicit that it is against that duty which I will say stock lending may be okay for a pension fund, but not stock lending where the er pension fund is acting as the borrower rather than the lender. +Right, Ken any other points? +Er can I er I I started to comment on about the er er bank accounts and which are y you know er my the reaction that I saw was all round the table er I think we would go further but er any company handling pension funds should carry pensions somewhere in their names on all on all their paperwork etcetera so that everybody's totally clear that they are dealing with pension funds and er er to agree with a comment that you made in one of your earlier reports that er designation of bonus of shares of pension funds should be clearly er marked on those shares er that also would have a at least alerted these financial institutions as once again that they were handling stocks belonging to pension funds and they still ignored it in that that w case that they did, but er they would have not had the excuse that er apparently some of them have made that er they were not aware that these were pension fund assets. +I think they are still claiming well it's not that I didn't know, but anyway Ken +Er we did we were gonna raise a point on that the clash of the regulatory rules and the producery duty of under trust law, you know and I I think there you know there there was a comment that that I picked up with Professor Gower you know in his report which I think where he said the Government obviously have greater confidence than I in reliance on pristine trust law in relation to modern commercial developments such as unit trusts and occupational pension schemes, which its founding fathers never contemplated. +Now there was nothing in Good really that I think addressed this mismatch between those two types of law. +Now I think that the Good did say oh well there is a law commission report expected, but I think that you know the Good should address somewhere tha that problem of trust law and regulation should and then I did in fact on going through the report and er you know and also your own reports erm there's the one about designation of assets you know, which I think was a very good recommendation of yours, I think the actual area of responsibilities and the wider role of actuaries was important. +I think the inde independent corroboration for actuaries was another important factor, custody confirmation by the auditors, veto of transfer of assets, independent auditors for pension funds, independent custodian arrangements, in-house investment management, you made some comments, co-ordination of the various regulators, co-ordination of the professional advisers, establishment of the Pension Tribunal, you know now as far as I was concerned on on my sort of looking through it, those were all recommendations that that you have made over your two years and I couldn't really find any response to those in Good, and I think that's er you know we we personally found that disappointing. +Also I mean er we take your point and we've made it before Ken that there's a real danger of asking for a report from someone like Professor Gower and then picking it, instead of actually taking the whole thing because it does actually add together in some sort of coherence erm and had Professor Gower's report been an exception in this entirety, we may not have been had the pleasure of having you back again today, but thank you very much, er all three of you for coming points so clearly +Thanks very much +at the end was very good wasn't it? +Mm. +that's good. +Mm. +Very good. +Yes. +All right, we want to make a start if we can, if people could settle down. +What I'm gonna ask you to do, if you could introduce each of yourselves and say which pension fund you er come from er and if we start from your left, my right. +Oh the thing in front of me it's Malcolm Adams and I'm with the National Association of British Steel Pensions. +It's John Mostin also with the National Association of British Steel Pensions. +I'm Gay Appleby, General Secretary for the National Federation of Post Office and B T Pensions. +I'm Ron Smart, Chairman of the British erm Federation of Post Office and B T Pensions. +Jim Castle, Member of the Imperial Tobacco Pension Fund. +I'm Michael Smedley, Chairman of the Impact which is the Imperial Tobacco Pension Fund. +Gay. +Thank you Chairman erm I would like I know that you've been listening to the first er part of our session this afternoon, erm and I'd like to ask you to discuss with us one of the questions that we asked the group the Pension Fund erm and that's to discuss the balance of power that exists between the employer and the various groups and classes of pensioner. +Perhaps if I just start with that simple question and see how it develops. +What help us,we we'll go to we'll direct the questions to different people erm and if you agree, just say you agree so that we don't have er erm a session of people just rec reciting what everybody else has said, but if we start with you erm Jim, sorry I can't see the +Michael Smedley. +Yes, right. +Erm, we feel very strongly about this that there should be a balance of power with the employer nominating no more than half of the trustees. +After all he's put the money in to pay pensions and the beneficiaries ought to have a strong hand in saying how that money is used, so we see half the trustees coming from the employer, the other half from the members of the pension fund, and we've got a pension fund with the very heavy weighting of er pensioners and not so many employees and we would like to see the remaining seats er half the trustees elected, partly from the current employees, partly from the deferred pensioners and partly from the pensioners and reflecting in a broad way the numbers in each of those categories. +Erm +We think that would be a fair way of of erm managing the fund and avoiding the case of having tame tame trustees who do what they employer tells them. +B T, same or different? +Erm well slightly different in the fact that er we er have two close schemes with far more er beneficiaries than there are er subscribing members, and at the moment that are four nominated by the er employer and four by the unions er we wish to say a pensioner erm that the rights were a pensioner nominee to that board of trustees, because we feel that er the situation is er is going to increase, we've got so many beneficiaries and that the pensioners have no representative er I know that erm people on the boards of trustees are completely impartial, but on the other hand there is no pensioner there, the members are unsure of the fund, because of what's been said, not that I'm implying it's not a secure fund, it is a secure fund, but they think why are they keeping the pensioners off, they there is some sort of hidden agenda they will not have us on there because neither of the businesses although we have tried for several years er they will not entertain at the moment erm a pensioner trustee, and yet Professor Good in his report acknowledges the merit of pensioner nominated trustees, er particularly in the sort of schemes where we've got,wh where th the majority of beneficiaries. +Great, British Steel? +Yes er I think we're just slightly different again er Chairman inasmuch that the British Steel Pension Scheme at the moment has fifty ce fifty per cent employer er trustees and fifty per cent nominated trade union trustees. +We too would like to see some pensioner and pensioner trustees on that trustee board, but we do also recognise because it is er a large scheme heavily weighted er with er pensioners and deferred pensioners in the very fact that it has been transferred from the public centre of public er sector into the private sector, that we would like to see an independent trustee er er appointed on to the er Committee of Management it would er er sort of act as a balance and be able to provide er specialist advice to particularly the Trade Union Trustees and for that matter the Employer Trustees so as to keep a broad balance of what's happening within the that time. +Very good er we may come back to that in a moment. +Thank you. +But listening to you make that case it's very similar to reading the great debate on franchise reform in this House in the last century, when people said we should be included and that people like us should be able to have the vote and put people into Parliament, it's I mean it was just that you were you were making that plea about pro that the Board should be representative as being like the group who are benefiting. +You've made very powerfully erm and I'm that's a point that we'll take on board. +When you talk about this split, fifty-fifty, could we go back that way. +Who elects the Chairman? +Well that's er that's another thing that's happened within the British Steel's er scheme, the Chairman seems to be elected in himself or by the company, it's certainly not e elected by the Trustee Board and er a and we would like to see +You mean parachuted in is he? +Yes, he's certainly parachuted in. +all right. +But who but, but that's describing what happens, how do you think the Chairman should be elected? +I think +Even letting you you've all talked about the you know employers are paying money in and so on, we don't want the schemes wound up, er if I was the the employer, might I not be concerned if you elected a a chairman that wasn't erm favourable to me? +Er you might er the company might well be concerned about that point, but er I think if the composition of the Board was er correct, that er that possibly wouldn't arise. +What you mean you'd have blocking mechanisms? +Yes. +Yes, very good, I see the point. +Thanks. +I see no reason additionally why the independent people on the Board should not act to protect the company in the same way as they're trying to help protect the other members . +Yes, but your colleague has also made the point that the constitution might have a blocking mechanism so that people, both sides, could be satisfied, wasn't it. +But Post Office and B T management appoint the Chairman of the Trustees, there are four Trustees appointed by the +Yes. +Management, four by the Trade Unions and the Chairman is appointed by the management. +Right. +No, no, the present the present one was a I think he was a Chairman of a big building society before he came into the Post Office and they use these are on three year terms, but er the previous Post Office one er spent nine years as Chairman, spent three yea three terms of three years. +So they're there for three years? +Yes. +Right and er is it a full-time job the Chairmanship? +Erm I don't know, I don't think it's erm I mean I I think it occupies er seventy-five percent of his time, but it isn't full-time. +No, I was just thinking,we we're, we're debating the in the Commons at the moment, changing the parole board from having part-time members, to having salaried full-time ones, which are on limited contracts and that clearly puts those parole board members in a different position to the Home Secretary and one it's ju you just do it because it's a part-time activity, you may get some expenses that you think is important, and I just wanted to get clear whether the Chairman on a limited contract a large part of their work appointed by the employer. +Thanks. +Our Chairman is appointed by the company and is usually a senior management member. +Right. +The erm pensioners and the employees have no say whatsoever in that. +Very good. +That's that's the present case, but I think er impact would say that with a fifty-fifty split, then those trustees should elect their own chairman and should be free to bring in independent trustees, so if you had a board of say four company members and four elected by the members er of the pension fund, they might decide to have two outside independents, one of which they would choose as the Chairman. +So you no longer have a fifty-fifty split then, do you? +Er you er you'd have two outside independents and you couldn't say how they would be, but they would be elected by the whole te whole er Board of Trustees. +Jane? +Er I'm forgive me if this information is already available to the Committee but er are each of your schemes are they money purchase schemes or final salary schemes? +Ours is a finance salary scheme. +committee did draw distinction between the two different kinds of schemes, erm perhaps if I could just ask you what do you think of the committee the Good reports er conclusion on training for trustees where they er the recommendation was that it was a laudable objective, but should not be made compulsory? +Er can I answer that. +We er are fortunate enough in having a training scheme, in fact we were able to elect our first pensioner representative trustee two years ago and he is with us today, we've just had another election and er two this time were elected, they will be trained, they had er Mr Hill had a two-day training by our actuaries er Watsons which are a big company, er but in talking to him about it he felt there was a lot to be said for having continued training, not just at the beginning of a two or three-year stint, but successively later. +It's a big responsibility which is very much on the trustees shoulders, he is, he is standing on his own there and it's +We were we were only smiling then because Watsons also trains us +It's one of our advisors. +No, but we feel that's very important indeed. +Absolutely, no. +No, no we understand the value of that don't we. +Erm well we would like to see training of the trustees, there is no training at the moment er for the trustees in erm either of our schemes er and we very much in our submission came out we felt there should be er training from the trustees. +Right. +Yes, we would like to er certainly see er training become compulsory with trustees and we would also like to see er guidelines set er for that particular training, so that train so that the trustees within all schemes would receive similar training, rather than piece-meal by one set of actuaries or another set of actuaries. +Erm can I just clarify this point, the impression I'm getting from the, from the phraseology in the way you've chosen your words is that your trustees in your particular pension funds which all er former nationalised industries, er haven't received any training. +Is that correct that er +That is correct. +Well the as far as we know the er certainly the trade union +Don't get any. +Don't get any. +When the management trustees get any training, we don't know. +Yes, in British Steel they, they do receive training, they do receive training. +Right. +Even if but I'm not saying that it's er the proper type of training that we would like to s +You were saying that in fact you still don't get any training. +That's correct. +Yes, so you're privatised? +That's correct. +Yeah. +Just to make a party point, is that all right? +Even accepting the fact that training is desirable I think that the trust law is so complex +I know. +That it's very, very difficult indeed to be trained to know all the parts of it. +In the last analysis is the innate honesty of a trustee who realises that perhaps something is going right and takes advice. +Could we just quickly, who should pay for the training of the trustees, employer or the trust? +The trust. +The trust? +The trust, yes. +Pen pension fund. +Very very good. +David? +Of course the role of the trustees is, is, is re- affirmed really by Good who er says that there under the under trust or as he sees it, the trustees should remain the legal owners of the fund and I wonder if we can move on to ownership. +I I think you were all here listening to the erm pensioners before you were they were talking about their ideas which were also our ideas in our er report on the designated ownership of, of the pension funds and in particular they had a couple of ideas which you may have heard about having the word pension in the in the names, just technical points, er pension in the names of er of the funds and and people who were er giving advice on behalf of them. +I wonder if you could like anybody would like to elaborate on that? +We'll start at the far end. +Can I, can I just pass for a minute and think on this one and come back. +Mm +I will pass as well temporarily. +Erm +It's really sorry, it's really the, the question of whether the the the the pension fund belongs to the trustees or is it has been found +Well erm in our organisation and it was in our submission that we felt that it er it should belong wholly to erm the employer erm it should belong to the beneficiaries as well, because we feel very strongly that the pension is deferred pay, it is deferred salary, and therefore they should have an ownership of part ownership in that fund. +They pay in six per cent of their salary, why should they be debarred from saying that they own part of those funds. +We feel that erm you know that they're both very good schemes an and well run, but we still feel that erm the e fund should not be owned entirely er by the employer. +British Steel? +Thank you. +Well we consider that er pensions er contributions are deferred pay, including the employers contributions erm that the fund should be held on trust by the trustees and that the employer should have no ownership in it whatsoever. +Very good. +Er I would, I would echo that, that we feel that they money has been paid in for work or services done by the employer and by the er fund members themselves have contributed and I don't think it belongs to either of those parties in any more, it's held by the trustees to pay pensions, if for nothing it's been put there just to pay pensions, it's not a piggy bank for er for companies to draw out with the with their tame er trustees allowing it, it it's money the trustees hold in in trust and I believe that's the law at the moment and er I I think we would like to see that confirmed in any new law. +Good, thank you. +off that, er I think several of us believe that the complexities of trust law at the present moment can make it very difficult if one agreed. +Our own particular case is our case went to the High Court some three hundred thousand pounds, when perhaps if we'd had a dedicated pensions act setting out what could and could not be done, that would never have happened. +You, you have a history of legal actions don't you? +Sorry sir? +You have a history of legal actions +Not we ourselves +No, no +but the companies which we belong. +doesn't it, yes indeed. +What's the state of play on the second one, did it were, were the trustees all dismissed, or did Brown Wilkinson's judgment stop that? +Erm th the net result of it the proposal stopped dead, are those who did not wish to transfer, meaning the pensioners, had an increased inflation percentage as a result er pensioner representatives have been appointed, widows have had a increased pension. +How much of that flows from the court case,I I wouldn't like to say, but my guess is quite a bit. +So you won on that, didn't you, because the proposal was to be no increases unless you transferred, wasn't it? +Mm +Yes, indeed. +Thank you. +Any other comments? +it goes on in our case, that both of our pension funds have had massive surpluses, i.e. erm there was a reported surplus by Watsons the actuaries, of one point erm seven billion which suddenly er vanished within one year to a seven er seven hundred million deficit and +Er it er seven hundred and fifty three million +of course our members er of which we've got a hundred and twenty three thousand, flood the lines into Luton wanted to know what happens they imagined a surplus as being some pot of er big tub of notes that they can dip it and we can dip into, but of course the surpluses have been used basically by British Telecom in particular for funding early retirement schemes er we're in no way in knowledge whether the money's every been paid back. +We've been told that er everything's done in, in the relation to the trustee but of course when you're talking about massive sums of one point seven billion, our members er who are seventy five/eighty olds who suffered the problem of the inflatory years, their pensions haven't kept, kept pace with the with the people that are retiring now. +We're gonna come +Although although there's a lot of people who feel they're all living in the lap of luxury if you're Post Office or B T pensioners, they aren't and we haven't been able to get this surplus er in any way used for the benefit of those people and er and that's where the ownership of the fund really and the surplus are tied in together. +We're gonna, we're gonna stay on this issue of ownership and surpluses for a little time, cos it's actually so important, but it's not unreasonable for your pensioners to think that here was this pot of money to which one could dip into, but the only thing is the pot of money disappeared didn't it? +Yes,an and what really upset the erm the, the members of the scheme and the pensioners was the fact that the money was going to actually erm fund the redundancy per programme er for the business and was going to the benefit of the employees and none of it was going to the actual pensioners. +Although they didn't, they didn't act illegally, they didn't say right, we're going to make the redundancy payment act, but what they did say you retire at fifty, we will make your we will enhance your pension to what you would have got at age sixty, we will enhance your lump sum to what you would have got at age sixty and erm give you a redundancy payment from the firm and obviously everybody fifty and plus they've gone in thousands, they had enormous waiting lists and then they had to say no, you can't go you know, too many people wanted to go. +What happened, people should have been paying in for ten years were suddenly taking out for ten years and these huge enormous sums and obviously the surplus which our members had helped to build up er and provide through the years and we've got seventy-five year olds on you know, extremely low pensions hardly making ends meet, and there were vast sums of money being given away to the employees, that the employers took a contribution holiday and so they weren't paying into the fund either you know, and all the profits of B T as you all know were soaring and partially because of the use of the pension funds and this has greatly obviously erm upset our members and we feel very strongly about it. +Right. +As you are probably aware Chairman from the media that the British Steel National Association of British Steel Pensioners also have a problem with a surplus and are seeking legal advice as to what has taken place. +Er certainly the surplus was used to er create a new scheme for the present contributing members and er to the maximum benefit of the new sponsoring company, which er in the pensioners view er certainly er caused a great lack of security to the fund in our view of what they have done and er it is of in our opinion a matter of public concern and that we welcome the opportunity and I believe that you said previously that you're gonna come up on the ownership of surplus, so perhaps getting away from it +We absolutely no, no, you'll find we won't leave this topic cos there's three people who actually want to come in now and I'm going to bring them in round the table. +Clifford first and then er +Can I take you back to the er the Good Report er about Trust Law,i it the report er concludes that it should be retained as the framework for er occupation of pension schemes. +Now I M P A C say that they believe there should be a dedicated pensions act to replace trust law and the National Federation Post Office and B T pensioners say trust law should continue to be the basis of pension funds. +Could tell could each of you tell us why you take a different view? +One way or another, I'm not quite sure what the the state of the +We believe now outdated, it was never designed to deal with the current situation the modern situation and when you are talking about +debts of some four hundred thousand million pounds, trust law does fall down. +The only recompe the only resource anyone has is to go to the courts, for the courts to decide what the law is at that present moment. +Now that's a costly business as we know to our cost, we didn't have to pay the three hundred thousand pounds, the pension fund did, but we had to risk paying those to go to court. +Now next year something else might happen and somebody may be forced to go to court, if they cannot go to court they cannot get justice and they have to wait to see what happens. +Now we have in the Companies Act a Table A which gives you a suggested er model, Memorandum of Association and Articles Association, why not a dedicated pensions act which says in here these are the minimum terms you must contain in your Trust Deed. +You can better them if you wish, but you cannot go below them. +People would know exactly where they stood then and we wouldn't have to go keep going to the courts to develop the theory of Trust Law. +So you'd leave the Trust Law in existence, so you wouldn't call cause a total legal revolution, but you would impose on that a spy of legal requirements which if trusts wish to through Trust Law enhance, they could, but they h all have to bring their agreements up to that minimum? +Up to that minimum yes +Yeah, very good. +A model, model trust deed. +Yeah. +Yes, B T? +page two of your submission +Yes. +paragraph +We felt that erm Trust Law had worked effectively erm you know over the years erm w we were happy with the extra powers that the er committee were recommending and the extra precautions that the committee were recommending that we brought in, but erm we would be happy with that backup to continue with the Trust Law. +Even in the situation that we find ourselves in with the Maxwell Pension situation, where we find that the the erm Trust Law didn't prevent the things from happening which did happen. +Do you still take that view? +But they hadn't got the backup of erm like th the regulator appointed. +I'm sorry I couldn't hear everything that the Maxwell people were saying, sitting behind me,you you've lost their, their voice and you you know, I couldn't hear what they were saying. +But wi with the appointment of er of the regulator and the oth the other erm recommendations that were made by the report, we think with that backup w w we are still basically happy to continue with Trust Law. +Well I er er we I wasn't speaking about the, the evidence today, I'm speaking about evidences that have been taken in the past, where we had even trustees before the committee. +We informed the committee that regardless to the fact that they were trustees, they were in no position to challenge Mr Maxwell and under those conditions then they felt that the the law should be changed that the Trust Law wasn't sufficient to er look after pensions, because they felt that in certain circumstances in fact gave evidence to the committee, various people gave evidence along those lines, that they were almost powerless against Mr Maxwell and that's . +That's why I'm surprised you, you take this +Can I put Clifford's point to the point that we're still discussing er which is about the surplus and how both your legal frameworks you're advocating relate to the answers you've given us about surplus and the concern about surplus. +Now if I, am I right in saying that B T is happy to continue er with the present framework of Trust Law, because within that framework you've proposed to us er a er a body of ideas about the composition of the numbers of trustees and who they should represent, which would make it much more difficult for employers to raid the fund. +Yes, because you would have your pensioners and your employers, yes. +And B T so and Imperial who's had a different experience to you after a takeover bid from a new employer clearly wants a legal framework, steel braces put within Trust Law to make it much more clear where power lies in th the operati operation of the trust and that possibly one one of those steel braces would the law would relate on h who could get their hands on the surplus and in what conditions. +So to some extent your responses re i is quite naturally a response to the position you face with your employers isn't it. +Our response to it was of course that er since the Post Office was re released from the Civil Service in nineteen sixty-nine to trustee, to pen the trustees, there's been a minimum amount of trustees er I can recollect on those on the funds and we've not had any problem. +I don't think the management interferes with the fund like the Maxwell situation. +Certainly in our meetings with the with the presentations we get from the trustees every year about the fund, we meet the trustees, we haven't er any erm real worry of saying that the pension trust hasn't operated, because I think our the trustees of those two funds are much more independent than the Maxwell ones er were. +I'm not trying to put them on an equal par, but later Maxwell erm Action Group were concerned with four hundred and eighty million disappearing. +Yeah. +You've told us one point seven million disappeared in surplus +Well +Deficit. +Billions. +Billions, into a deficit erm that there are large the problem we're looking at now is these very large transfer of assets which people feel that they built up with their contributions and whether that's right or not. +can I just ask British Steel, that I mean you're hearing the other two groups. +In a sense responding to our questions, naturally, depending on how they've been treated by their employer can we have your comments about the sort of legal framework you think the pension fund should be in and then Jeremy will take over. +Right, well I think the biggest problem with Trust Law is that it expects too much of trustees. +It starts off essentially defining them as people who are impartial, and in no time at all we are talking about them being nominated from different sector interest. +However, I think the practicalities in the situation are that we have to face the fact that they are not going to behave impartially and you see we have a classic example in er the circumstances of our own situation as described by John. +We have an equal spit of company nominated and member nomina and union nominated trustees. +They basically carved up our surplus between them and each supported the other and overriding all of that is that each and every one of them was an active member of the scheme. +Now how under those circumstances do you achieve the impartiality that's supposed to be the cornerstone of Trust Law? +That's brilliantly put. +Right, Jeremy. +Yeah, really the question I want to put is to the er B T Post Office er representatives, that y you made a perfectly reasonable objection to the way in which B T funded it's early retirement scheme from the pension fund. +Obviously this was challenged at some point. +What I don't quite understand is what was the legal basis on which they went ahead with this despite the objection, presumably as some of the trustees as to what was being done, I could hear we're talking of er a deficit of one point seven billion appearing or it a surplus disappearing into a deficit, which is actually four times as much has disappeared out of Maxwell. +Okay we know where it went and we know what it was used for, but er my question to you is, is it a legitimate use of a pension fund to fund a business development scheme which involves early retirement? +Well we did take some er legal advice on it and we were told that it was not illegal, erm I mean we think it's highly immoral erm, but we were told it was not illegal, because they did not actually use the er the redundancy money did not come out of the fund, only this enhanced pension etcetera which was using up the, the surplus and we were told +And it started the pension payments at a younger age or something? +Pardon? +They started paying +Yes, at fifty instead of sixty, they said you retire at age fifty and we will make your pension up to what you would have got at age sixty and we will also do the same with you lump sum and so now you know, this and they did that with thirty thousand I think went in one year, it doesn't take long to get rid of one point seven billion pounds when you're doing for that er that number of people erm and +I think the problem is that this one point seven billion was er an actuarial assessment by Watsons i it may never have been that amount of money. +Directly directly B T started erm saying well thirty thousand employees will go this year under B T ninety-two scheme i.e. they will go at fifty, they will draw their pension at fifty, which isn't the trust deed and for many years Inland Revenue point blank refused to let anybody draw a pension below sixty. +They changed that, so the money er it's a bit different than the Maxwell, the money hasn't been erm a switched over to the Cayman Islands and all over the place, it's it's stayed in, in the but of course we're told by the trustees and by our legal advice that nothing illegal's taken place, the money's been used to st er finance early voluntary retirement etcetera, etcetera. +If the Trust Deed says the pension has to be paid at sixty, then the Trust Deed says it has to be paid at sixty, surely that you know, that's something you can't get rid of. +The schemes now are paid a pension at fifty, but the only, the only snag I understand is it isn't inflation, inflation proofed until fifty-five, but people are drawing their pensions and they get their lump sums at fifty and it's enhanced to take into account the actual and expected earnings for the next three years, so er you take thirty thousand people, one point seven billion can soon erm +Disappear. +Can soon disappear. +Clarify a point here. +I if someone's their pension at fifty +Yes. +and they had joined British Telecom at twenty, +Yes. +Then they will have paid some thirty years +thirty years yes. +into the pension fund +Yes. +Presumably the maximum was about forty or was forty-five +Forty-eight er yes. +Forty eight and and presumably many of the people who are perhaps seventy drawing pensions, they may not have even paid in thirty years themselves, I mean they may be many of them may not have been around for that period of time. +So in fact there may be a quality of treatment actually between someone retiring at fifty or fifty-five in terms of the number of years paid into the pension fund, as someone say age seventy. +Well I doubt it actually at the moment. +Pardon? +The operative word there is might. +Yes erm because I doubt it, erm at the moment with the fund that we're talking about the erm the close scheme, because most of these people in B T were originally erm in the Post Office, and of course when the they split erm then the erm Post Office workers went over to B T, they get a B T pension but in actual fact they paid into a pension scheme erm for many of them for forty years because they come into that age group, where so many people, you took a job when you were twenty o or or sixteen and you stayed with it for life, you didn't chop and change like people do these days and the majority of our members erm we can go down and I would say the vast majority of our members have actually worked for the Post Office or starting with the Post Office and then B T or staying with the Post Office for forty years, there's no end of them they've got in there forty years service. +So no, I can't agree there, that there is erm unequality, they think they are being hard done by. +also history if I might just say that when the Post Office er split from the Civil Service, the firm was in deficit for twenty years and of course Post Office management say quite clearly that they were putting in sums of eighteen per cent of the pay bill when it was only supposed to be nine per cent of the pay bill and that's why they're entitled to the to the surplus. +B T say the same, that for twenty years the firm was in deficit and both managements put in much more than the Trust Deed says to keep us to keep the fund afloat. +But that +Employees paid their six per cent of their erm salary. +Mm, yeah. +But the both until B T split from the Post Office, the Post Office put in if I remember rightly in negotiations those days er they were putting in something like fourteen per cent of the pay bill. +I don't want to get on to that +I think the point has been made er and let me er ask you to correct me if I if you don't i it's a fair assessment, the point that's really being made is there is a judgmental issue here as to whether a surplus arises from over-funding by an employer er substantial investment performance or or effectively unfair claiming between either the deferred pensioners or the pensioners and i it can be that all of those interests have to put into the pot and it's a judgment as to who actually is doing best in what circumstances. +I said I didn't want to get on to this area because it's you know, we could go on all night discussing whether this, well whether that. +We we ar it was really helpful if we are concrete in actually the answers that we give rather than speculative. +Jane. +doesn't it come back to the issue of wh who they trustees are and who's interest, given that trustees are expected to be independent, in the end, who's interests do the trustees represent, because I've had experience of working with a pension fund that was in massive surplus and the actualar actuaries refused to agree their final report until that surplus was dealt with, so that the trade unions and the employer through the trustees had to negotiate a way of spending that surplus and er given the pressures of the actuaries to say we were not allowed th the funds to continue unless you deal with this surplus, then it comes back to the issue of how the Board of Trustees is made up and if we accept that there is a degree of representation on that Board, then just exactly how that representation is divided. +Well in both our our er incidences what happens is that the actuary recommends what erm should happen. +Watsons actually recommended what should happen with both the surpluses and their recommendation was that both businesses should take a contribution holiday for the next three, five and maybe even be ten years in the Post Office, depending how investments go erm an- and there was no discussion erm between or negotiation between anybody. +That was recommended to the employers, the employers said yes, that's the action they would take, they put it to the trustees, the trustees agreed it and that was it. +Full stop. +Well i it's becoming slightly unfair because Watsons isn't on the stand, Watsons would also you know probably spell out in a little bit more detail, but their advice was comprehensive that there were Inland Revenue rules that it would put the tru and so on and one would want to s to say that tha that as well, but I do want to move on. +British, British Steel, yes? +Yes,I I would like to come in to say how our er scheme was transferred from the er British Steel Pension Scheme to the new scheme in nineteen ninety. +Now once the benefits were approved er by the Trust Deed and er bearing in mind that the Chairman at that meeting informed the Trustee and I quote in determining the structure of the scheme the company was prepared to enter into consultation with the Trade Unions and Trustees, but this was a consultative process only and not a subject for negotiation; and their company then went on to seek the er er the transfer of the present contributing members er er and a hundred of the members agreed er to transfer into that new scheme. +Now The Trust Deed and rules were asked for prior to their consent and the company made it clear that they would not be available until after the new scheme commenced on the first October nineteen ninety and indeed it was some eight days later on the ninth October at er Trustee meeting that the company presented the Trust Deed and rules and it was resolved that the Committee of Management would er transfer all the close scheme members er into the new nineteen ninety scheme and er the same Trustees appointed themselves er Trustees of the nineteen ninety scheme and one hour later were the presentation of a draft deed amending the British Steel Pension Scheme and a draft interim Trust Deed establishing the British Steel Pension Scheme in nineteen ninety and a draft Trust Deed and rules of the British Steel Pension Scheme of nineteen ninety were tabled for noting; and those very Trustees that were on the first meeting agreed to transfer the assets to the new scheme, set as Trustees of the new scheme one hour later, accepted the assets and er without er seeking either legal or actuarial advice and in this case er Watsons were advisors to the company to the old scheme Trustees and to the new scheme Trustees. +The difference though between you and Imperial Tobacco was that the Trustees went into the Courts didn't they? +Yes. +dissimilar. +The reason they went into Court though was that erm +I M P A C which was formed to protect the pensioners had threatened an injunction if they did not go to Court. +So er listening to the gentleman on the left er echoes of nineteen ninety High Court case. +Yes. +So you were saying who were threatening an injunction if you didn't go into Court? +We engaged a solicitor to look into the matter and he became convinced that there was I won't say a loophole, that there was a reason why this should not be done and er requested the Committee of Management to to Court for advice. +This was done in the name of one of our pensioners. +And stated that if they did not do so, we would an injunction to stop the proposals going through. +The Committee of Management took the advice and went to the High Court and as a result the proposal was stopped. +Jimmy? +Yes, Mr Chairman it seems to me regarding that you could drive a double deckered bus through the legislation, and +Goodey has not looked at it satisfactorily as far as I'm concerned and as far as many of the scheme members are concerned, I mean he has concluded that the employers are still entitled to er do what they like with the surplus, the only thing that he recommends that they do it with the approval of the regulator himself, but he the other thing that the +Goodey has reported and concluded, that as long as they get their hundred per cent minimum requirement they can still go on their contribution holidays, and many and my scheme members feel that this is just a it's a freebie as far as they're concerned and scheme members don't do not benefit from the surplus and they would like to have seen or preferred to have seen +Goodey making a change for the benefit of the scheme members paying into a scheme, rather than employers going away in a contribution holiday. +Now is there any other er pension funds that do likewise or have any other experiences as far as surpluses are concerned? +I I find issue with one point in the Good Report, when he mentioned that a surplus is a notional surplus, it cannot crystallize until the fund actual close down. +If it is in fact a notional surplus, then why is the employer allowed to take money out of that notional surplus, he's taking real money out of from a notional surplus, it should not be allowed. +told you didn't he that the surplus the only way one would know there was a surplus there was when the fund was closed, when every pensioner had been paid money left. +But in view of the fact that different actuaries can come to different answers and Professor Good quotes one where a difference of half per cent gives rise to a difference of a hundred and sixty seven million. +How does one know and I accept Professor Good's point what the exact amount of that surplus is. +There may be in fact a deficit, and yet we still allow the employer to take money out. +Now if we're saying you cannot ascertain this surplus, then why is the employer allowed to take money out? +Right. +B T? +Would you like to respond to Jimmy's question? +Well we were disappointed in the Good Report because er they did say it was one of the major issues, and yet they said that they didn't think any sweep in changes are needed which rather erm contradicted the earlier part of our report, we would have thought there were erm changes needed. +A group of our here is largely actuarial surpluses and one doesn't really know whether there's a surplus things keep changes. +The actuaries go to the employer to find out what their plans are. +British Steel how you go that answers a really good way of putting it. +Thank you very much. +Well British Steel adopted a somewhat more subtler tactic er they make a strong point of the fact that no money has ever been removed from the scheme despite the presence of a six hundred surplus. +What they did is took half and used it to reduce their contributions and it was a large reduction, it was a reduction from twelve to currently five per cent. +Er okay, different words to describe the same and indeed they didn't take out of any fund, but they achieved the same end result. +Jimmy? +Well if this is the case then you don't see that any recommendations in Goodey would stop that kind of thing happening and if you don't see that, what recommendations would you make to the Committee that Goodey should put any report that would stop that kind of thing happening. +Well the fear of boring you because I've said it before, I think that either a Trustee made up of an equal balance of members from the various interested groups which is very difficult to achieve in practice and additionally independent trustees certainly in our case, we believe would have stopped it happening because the movements in the direction it went was clear now that we have the information in front of us to the Trustees, it was quite clear what was gonna happen and nothing was done about it. +Now we didn't have a voice, remember we were never even informed before or until two years later after the event that it had happened. +There are still British Steel pensioners from the old scheme who genuinely do not know that there exists a new scheme. +Do you not believe that with this recommendation where +Goodey has said that the regulator has got to give his approval that would stop that? +The problem there I would suggest is the timescale between the things happening and it getting to the regulator and being digested. +In the present +didn't understand the two years, I mean he would have told the regulator. +Yes. +Erm whereas if there were independent trustees responsible to the regulator and they were properly trained, they would I suggest be able to smell out very quickly any malpractice and would have straight to the regulator, if only to call a stop for someone to have a look at it. +nothing recommended with Goodey in that particular cause is of any good. +I don't think so. +Have erm Imperial? +belief is that er if you get the trustee balance right, that's the first place where the decision ought to be made, but there should be a fall-back position which Good has given, which they the trustees could go to the regulator in the case of er not being able to solve things, but are feeling very much on surpluses, that the money is there first of all to pay pensions and until pensions are paid up to Inland Revenue levels, whatever they are, then no money should go back to the company. +The question of taking pension holidays in between out of surplus is a sort of mid midway position, but er very definitely we feel strongly that money should not go to the company. +We have suffered from the same thing as the other two er Abalance have said today of money being used from our surplus to provide for redundancy and erm i it's been exacerbated by money being available from the people who are made, made redundant, going to the company and swelling their balance sheets, while all the cost side of it comes out of the pension fund and that has caused a lot of ill-feeling particularly from the older pensioners who have seen years of inflation when their pensions were not made up to the same extent. +In the old days when there was a possibility of of erm ad hoc payments made, er that sort of thing was taken of, since the takeover of the company, that hasn't happened to the same extent so there's a very strong feeling with the older pay er pensioners that they paid money into a pension scheme which now shows a surplus, but other people are benefiting from it. +We need we've got lot's more questions to ask you. +Peter? +Erm, Mrs Appleby you mentioned briefly earlier the role of the regulator. +How do you see the regulator doing his job with a hundred and twenty eight thousand schemes to, to monitor? +Great difficulty +Erm er well we welcome the erm e er er the proposal that there should be a regulator. +Somebody er to whom the erm er er matters could be referred er whom er could remove trustees er who are er not acting in er the best interests er of the fund erm to whom er I understand that the erm beneficiaries could er appeal if they felt that their fund was being erm used i in the wrong way which is something that we haven't got at the moment erm I mean just going very, very briefly back to the question that you asked erm about this how would you stop what's happen happening is by having, we would have thought a pensioner trustee, because even the question has been asked how did it get through the union trustees and the answer is that most of them are employed, and they are looking over their shoulder because jobs are going and redundancies are being made. +You've got a pensioner employee er a pensioner trustee on there and they're not looking over their shoulder for their job, they are going to do the job of a trustee and watch the funds, and they would then be able to go to the regulator if they saw something that was amiss. +Whereas somebody who is employed by the firm might be very worried about doing because they're more bothered about keeping their job. +So th the case you're putting that the that the pensioner trustee er ship is more powerful than you originally put cos until now you've been put it in grounds of i the trust should be repre representative of it +Yeah +Now you're saying erm rather well, that in fact that person or persons could be more independent +Yes. +Because they're actually not worried about being sacked +Yes. +either erm because redundancies are coming up, or Imperial trustees down, they were just got ridden of as a way of moving them off the trust. +Yeah, very good. +in our case the unions approved our proposals of the company, they raised no objections it was only the who raised objections, the employees didn't and in the High Court case, we've just said, how can an employee be independent when he depends upon his employer for his future work. +So, really what you're saying is that if we're looking at trip wires to stop things happening, there's a powerful a really powerful case for a pensioner trustee looking for whistle blowers. +Yes. +There's also a powerful case for having pensioner trustees there's far less chance of erm people twisting their arm, although they could have the character. +and that's where independents come in. +But, but, but that's a problem we all face. +And we're also saying that if you have a new pensions act, the work of the regulator would be much easier. +Why? +He won't keep have to be going off to court to find out what is the law at that moment of time. + +Hello. +Hello Mrs what can I do for you today? +It's my stomach again, I feel if I could just get it +so. +took out. +See the towels she gave me the last time. +There, they were brilliant and I felt as though they were just starting to work when finished. +Oh right, right. +If I could have, I'd be able to get a wee bit, +aye, cos I even done a toilet with them, +Right. +cos I feel +Yeah. +as though I've had too much water. +I don't same as I did with them. +No pain passing your water then Jane ? +No, it's not sore it's just my stomach all seems to Mm. +Mhm . +Across your stomach swelling out, right. +That's fine. +Do you still have the burning, this +Mhm. +Ah these are the first ones I've . +Yes,right,as long as they're working, it's half the battle. +Mhm. +box. +There you are, Jane. +That'll keep you +away for a wee while again. +Thanking you. +Go away and look after yourself. +It was, I'd only just . +No that's good, +Mm. +that's good. +Well be good +Mm. +to yourself. +I'll try my best. +Right, Jane +Right. +Cheerio. +Cheerio now. + +Just a couple of things by way of introduction. +Erm, the first point, relates to a a microphone here, and er and er tape recorder, and I think members of the sub-committee will have received a note from the Chief Executive Department. +Longman's are doing a study into the spoken language, and are looking for, I think, ninety million words that are in common usage. +They came to the County Council and asked for our permission, to to record a number of meetings in order to get a variety of settings and words, different words they used. +It's it's the same procedure that we accepted at the Finance Committee last Friday, and in mentioning it and hoping it will be acceptance that Longman's can have the benefit of the Personnel's sub-committee contribution for the next hour and a half or so. +There's, to be clear about it, that it's completely confidential, that their looking only for particular words that are used in different parts of the country and in different locations. +No problems, I presume Sound. +Right. +The second second thing is that people, everybody should have three extra pieces of paper, erm, relating to agenda Item Seven. +The paper, January reports on employee resources. +One's headed, Linkway Construction, the other is page thirty-two which needs replacing. +Thirty-two that's plain paper out, needs to come out and thirty-two needs to go in. +There's also the salary scale A green card. +Having said that, can we move, go into +Yes. +any apologies or substitutions. +Certainly, Chair. +There are no apologies, but there are two substitutions for this meeting. +Councillor to replace Councillor and Councillor to replace Councillor . +Both for this meeting only. +Thank you. +If we can move to the agenda. +Agenda item one. +As we received the Minutes of the Personnel Meeting held on the eighteenth of October, nineteen ninety-three. +These Minutes have been circulated with the Agenda for the meeting of the Policy Committee on the second of November. +Chair, just before we go into, there's one quick thing I would like to add. +I omitted the attendance of Councillor from those Minutes, subject to that, I would hope you would approve them. +Is it agreed that these Minutes be approved? +Agreed. +Agreed. +Thank you Okay, if we then move to agenda item two. +Minutes of the Appeal sub-committee, held on the fifteenth of October, nineteen ninety-three. +Paper A. Perhaps merely to receive this paper from the Appeal sub-committee, fifteenth of October. +Agreed to receive it? +Agreed. +Agreed. +Thank you Next item,Right agenda item three, notes of the Joint Consultative Committee held on the twenty-first of October, nineteen ninety-three, paper B. If I could just say a few words. +This meeting was, I think the second meeting of Management and staff side on the County Council. +It's part of an ingoing programme of meetings where there's consultation between employee representatives and employer representatives. +Specifically, most of the items that we discussed are picked up as agenda items throughout this particular agenda. +For example, on page two, number nine one, trade union recognition, is item nine of our agenda. +We could mention occupational health service review. +This this is going ahead and we had discussions with the staff side about about that issue. +Local government review on page three, is is again an agenda item in relation to the staff commission at item ten in our agenda. +Couple of points that were made in relation to this particular report was the backing by the employee side, erm, to the wages board initiative that took when we wrote to the government saying that we felt that the abolition of the wages board was not in the best interests erm, of the people of Lincolnshire. +And that was supported. +There will be a further report at the next Personnel Meeting on the outcome of the meeting that we held with J C C meeting on the twelfth of January and a further meeting is being fixed up for February. +I don't know if anybody wants to make any comments about any of the items on paper B Okay, is it agreed to receive this report? +Agreed. +Agreed. +If we would then move to agenda item four. +Association of County Councils Personnel sub-committee digest Paper C. Graham. +It's simply a a report circulating for information slanders really because of it's, obviously it's a dated er paper, that appears from A C C because of the difference in Committee cycles. +If there are any items, that er, members would wish to pick up, then I'm sure, we would be happy to do so, or the Chair. +Well, thank you. +Anybody want to make a comment on the A C C digest. +Councillor +Chair. +Two, the nineteen ninety-four pay round. +Erm, basically we've got a very poor deal from the government this year in terms of of of an increase in our spending allowance. +Erm, I note that for ninety-five, ninety-six, that they intend to give us two per cent rise. +Er, with nothing in there to pay. +And I note that in ninety-six, ninety-seven we're gonna get one and a three quarter per cent rise. +And again with nothing to pay, with the county's expected to find the money for pay rises for their staff from savings from efficiencies. +Now, I mean, we've always been told that this is, been an efficient run County Council, and that the the scope for making savings is just not there. +We've got inflation that I, it looks to be pressing perhaps to three, three and a half per cent, between four and three and a half per cent . +Erm, we've got pay review bodies which may, we don't know what they'll come out with in in terms of recommendations for for the pay increases, and I think that this is placing the Councillor in a in a very bad po er position. +Erm I don't think it's fair upon the employees and I don't think it's fair on the counties. +Erm, I just wondered if you, from your manage from your meetings with the A C C that you would want to pass on any more comments on that. +Thank you. +Come back to that. +Does anybody else want to make a contribution on this paper? +what er Councillor says, but I can't find it. +It's Agenda i , it's two. +No. +Is that right? +No. +I think, I think the Chancellor in the erm, Budget speech on the thirtieth of November actually said that local government increase in spending will be two and a quarter per cent in nineteen ninety-four, five. +Two per cent in ninety-five, six and one and three quarter per cent in ninety-six, seven. +Yes, I appreciate that, but I just wondered why we were discussing that here now, when we were turned down. +I'm sorry, I just was a bit confused. +Right, I think it's to do with the fact that two on this digest is about the +pay-round, and the pay-round is linked to what money +given to actually, give to the local authorities. +Any other contributions? +If I could just pick up the point you made Councillor , I think that at the A C C discussions, there was a great deal of cognition and understanding of the need to consult with staff side, in the run up to the beginning of formal consultations. +And I think that a comprehensive consultation exercise has got to bear in mind that the key question, and that's affordability. +That we recognise that local authorities are in a a difficult position. +We also recognise so to are the workers of County Councils, and District Councils, particularly because the er the government initiatives, one good point to V A T on fuel, and the increasing in in National Insurance Contributions and increases in taxation, so between the two sides has got to be some accommodation, bearing in mind the need for both of us to want to continue to deliver quality services. +It's going to be a tough nineteen ninety-four. +Anything else of agenda item, what is it C. Paper C. Okay. +Do we agree that that the digest be noted. +Agreed. +Agreed. +thank you. +Right paper D, agenda item five, Options and Horizons Agency's Annual Report. +Thank you, Chair. +Michael. +Er, we report annually to you on our stewardship of the Options and the Horizon Agencies. +Erm, the Options Agency is a county-wide youth training agency, with contracts with the Lincolnshire and the Greater Peterborough, er training and enterprise councils. +Er, we're also, with that particular agency looking to establish a contract with the er, South Humberside . +The majority of the training is within the Options Agency, erm, achieve a positive outcome, and I do apologise with all the jargon that will creep in , erm, positive outcomes in terms of these programmes are that they achieve jobs. +National Vocational Qualifications. +N V Q's or they go on to higher er studies in further education. +And virtually everybody who joins the Options Agency has a positive outcome to more than one in some cases, er in so far as that agency is concerned. +So overall the Options Agency has had another successful year. +Internally the Options Agency delivers training for young people who qualify to our employees at the County Council, and so we do receive assistance through the youth training programme and with our costs as an employer in training young people to achieve the these positive outcomes and N V Q's and so on. +So the Options Agency has had a good year, and hopefully will again next year. +The Horizons Agency serves Lincoln and District and that's called the Lincoln Travel to Work Area, which vir virtually stretches as far as Horncastle to the east and Gainsborough to the er, west and Market Rasen to the north and Sleaford to the south, so it's a very large proportion er er of the county, but it's called the Lincoln Travel to Work er Area. +And it serves it from premises in Road and Lane in Lincoln. +It has a contract with the Lincolnshire Tech. +for youth training, and a contract for adult training. +And it is specialised over the years in craft training, particularly in relation to the building and engineering trades, and has made unique provision in the district for the less able. +The less able, in the jargon of these programmes are called an S T N. Special Training Needs. +Er, the method of funding is changed for these programmes and this is leading to particular problems for the Horizons Agency. +Er, we started off originally with all our expenses being met on these programmes. +It then moved to being paid so much per week, for an trainee, and we now have a mixture of such much a week, and so much for the output related fundings, the jobs, the N V Q's, the F E courses which I mentioned earlier. +And there is a move to move adult training particularly, to total output related funding. +The Tech is funded in this sort of way by the er, er national arrangements and they in their turn has passing that on to various suppliers. +This will pose particular problems for the Horizons Agency, because we rely very much on the weekly allowance for the people with special training needs, because their output in in terms of o output related funding is relative to the So our income is cutting for the people with the, who need the highest training staff ratio, in in order to succeed. +And this poses particular problems for us in the Horizons Agency. +We are in discussion with the Tech, and those discussions are not included. +Erm, we're meeting er on a fairly regular basis with them, to see if we can seek some solution. +And you'll see in the report that we do point out, that some of the training that we do, things like woodwork training, and brickwork training, are relatively expensive to deliver, compared with other training of occupations. +Erm, and we've had, I'm afraid to give protective notice to six members of staff, it's about er, discussions with the erm, Tech, are not successful, then they will have to leave us at the end of this programme year, which is the thirty-first of March. +That difficulty on one sense overshadows the successes that the agency has had, and this is particularly successful in the area of catering training training and business training. +We do run er an organisation called Lincoln Energy Save out of the Horizons Agency, which er, completes insulations programmes, er, in er, properties. +It's in part a government, and partly E C funding programme, and er the rules on that have been changed which will make many more people eligible for assistance with er, er insulation on their houses. +Trained people are on the way, and many of the people that we train go onto work college, other commercial agencies. +So there are successes in Horizons Agency, you just have to at the moment by the difficulties in finding the necessary funding to cater for people who are not great achievers in terms of output funding. +Right. +I'll be happy to answer any questions, Chair. +Thank you. +Right, Councillor and then Councillor +Well, er I think, you know, it's a, I mean, in er one way it's a, it's a good it's a good report, I mean, and er it emphasizes, you know, the success of what the, we've got. +I mean, we've got this, it's been on, Mrs , I know, she has the same as I do, but but er the the these people who need such help, I mean, I'm not being it it it just it just they've just not included in the programme really, and er, we've written I think from this committee over the years er made submissions over the years, and message still doesn't seem to have got through, that that that that er this, and I think very valuable work, that can contribute to the quality of life for all of us, if we can improve the lot for these people. +It does reflect right through society er still doesn't, the message still doesn't get home, and I would like to move Mr Chairman, that er we do again er write and see if we can get some special recognition of this very serious problem that there is. +There's some valuable work gone on there, and you can, and if and if we're going to deny these people, the opportunity of of achieving anything like their potential, I mean, it seems such a shame, when we, you know, when we are succeeding in the rest of the programme. +And I would like to ask you, er er and the rest of the committee of who, whatever we can do, and that the officers should advise us what we can do, to to to make a further submission. +I don't, I think we must do, because it underlines it's it's as sp , it's been a slow spiral down for these people, and we're getting now, very near to the bottom where we're not going to be able to help any of them at all. +So I would urge the committee to to to make a submission on their behalf, Chair. +Thank you. +Councillor +Erm, yes, well I go along with er, Councillor on that. +But but first of all I would like to say the officers of the agencies really should be congratulated on. +Doing a good job. +I'm sure Councillor and erm, and certainly there does seem to be more emphasis on helping people with difficult educational disabilities, and those with learning difficulties, but if we could encourage even more,excellent, and I think it's very important that er, bank agencies er emphasise the fact that it's training, plus their main aim being er also a qualification, which does help them get, erm jobs. +And the end product record, does seem to be very good, particularly erm, er you know, with options, seventy- five per cent you know, very good indeed. +But could we please be told just a little bit more about Compus course, er run by Horizon, that's mentioned in the last paragraph, erm on the, on green one, it's on the first page. +defined as severely disadvantaged young people. +Does that include young people with severe physical and sensory disabilities? +Yes, the Compus course was really a a further work orientation course, for people who had just left school. +Mm. +And generally speaking, they had left the special schools of, is it St Christophers in er Lincoln, and er other special schools, and they were not, they hadn't had sufficient er work experience or knowledge of the possible market to find jobs at the moment. +And so what we did, we ran this particular course, erm, for which we we received a fee, but it came back as expenses area, wasn't under the same arrangement as the rest of it. +And and we pla , got people placed in various work places which was sympathetic to their particular disabilities. +When you get down to these groups of people, you have to work with each individual, if you, you'll know, and find somewhere where you can capitalise on their strengths and hopefully get away with whatever disabilities they had. +So some people were very low academic people, some had physical problems, and er, some had er, combination of problems, erm which er very often you would find er combination of problems. +But it was irrelative to accept that sort of course. +We had run one in an earlier year, erm, I think that was slightly a different type, but that, er, the idea was the same. +Have you thought of sorry,chair. +Mm. +Er will be spreading to the er, other parts of county, as well. +Erm, I suspect er that the Tech. +if it sees a needs for this. +Yes. +er, type, would contract with somebody else apart from elsewhere in the County, erm, rather than with us. +Er, we're not erm, geared for instance, to deliver a course like that in Stanford, but some other agency may be. +Yes. +And we haven't thought to do it from anywhere else, other than +press forward. +We don't, I mean, whatever experience we have, we are not available to any other +Thank you. +Okay thanks. +Councillor +Thank you, Chairman. +Er, the question on B five please. +Erm, could you tell us a little more about the venture, and the this one. +Yes, I'm I'm no expert, I I, though if you probably are, erm, but as I understand it, it's erm, it's growing or starting plants off, erm, to grow in a soilless culture +Yes. +Erm, it's it's an odd plant, I've wandered round it, sort of steam heat situation, as far as I can tell. +And that fairly quickly, but erm, it's it really producing plants in a a forced situation, which I don't translate into others, and grow strongly elsewhere, and er, I'm afraid I'm I'm no expert in this plan. +propagation. +this is this is this is a way that er erm, garden centres and whatever er do produce a lot of their material. +And there is quite a lot of growth in employment in gardening centres at the moment. +Particularly if you can send somebody who has knowledge of the process, as well as the N V Q, with the point there, that that was being made, erm, and we felt that this was a growth area. +We have had quite a few trainees, youth trainees in garden centres, and golf courses, which surprised me, but golf courses apparently could use quite a lot of people. +And er, this extra interest we thought would er, you know, force their chances of employment. +So we're keeping our fingers crossed on that idea. +I think at the moment the it's the Scottish theory, not proven but it looks promising. +Thank you, I'm reassured that it is a viable, promotional future. +Well, I think so. +I mean,can you. +We feel it's got a, in a sense of what we produce within the training situation, we know we can sell. +Good. +And, we also feel it got a future to the people who are working within it,, in that it will lead them on hopefully, to useful employment opportunities. +The people who take this job on, are not necessarily the highest achievers, they tend to be looking for a job with a particular interest in that and are sort of reliable and conscientious people. +Perhaps they have been finding our simulated version of you know, to be there early, and to be there late, and sometimes be there Saturday and Sunday as well. +Mm. +So that, I mean, they they are getting a a reasonable working environment or reasonable view of the working environment, so that it doesn't come +Everyone's got a skill it's just having, erm, finding it. +Well, +Nurturing it, really +Thank you. +Thanks. +Right, anyone else? +Okay. +Just to come back to Councillor point. +The the difficulty in a sense that we got, if we look at two paragraphs towards the end the report. +Paragraph five two, actually su actually suggests that output related funding, a hundred per cent output related funding based on achieving jobs and N V Q's, has been tried by Lincolnshire Tech. +with a view to introducing it to all contracted providers in nineteen ninety-four, ninety-five. +We we then actually go over to paragraph five five, which refers to the fact that output related funding, has an effect on Horizons, because essentially we're dealing with people that have got special training needs. +Mm. +So we we, in a sense we've got a a clash of of principles or a conflict, between for example, the government wanting the the Lincolnshire Tech to have an hundred per cent output related funding, based on jobs and N V Q's which is not er er perhaps, er an easy way of delivering output related funding services to people who've got special training needs. +Which seem to me re re re re reasonable to be suggesting that we could lobby government, in order to say that, people with special training needs can't be included within the whole of the hundred per cent linked output related funding,be because the issue is that then, er they do have special training, and that's that that's the justification for them, that particular group. +Putting them to one side from the ordinary trainee where you could expect jobs and N V Q's to be the outcome, and for them to be treated as a special case. +I mean, I don't know what people would think of that. +Well, I'd like to do, that we do do that, I mean, we have I think made some submissions in the past, but I think it's now quite clear that the fears that we've expressed in this committee over the years, are well founded, and we've got to the point, where the whole er project for the special needs people, is is going is going to be very vulnerable. +But I mean, it could be er could be ver we're talking about redundancies now, aren't we, so it, er, I think you know, I'd like to move that we do do that, if the if there's a seconder, and and and lobby very strongly. +Okay. +I I wonder, Chair, if I might comment. +We have in the past raised this through the er Association of County Councils in the education side, with and we, there was quite a lot of support, and also have had support in the past from er, Kenneth Carlyle and Douglas Howe erm who were, supported the view, er which was particularly in relation to youth training, as this is more adult training we're talking about here. +But I I think there is a body of opinion out there that we could tap, which would be supported. +Jim's proposition. +Is is it seconded? +Yup. +Right, anybody else want to speak about that approach. +Er, I take it, Chairman, that that this would be through our ideas about the +Oh, we could do it in a variety of ways. +We could actually go to the Association of County Councils. +described, all the avenues that we can pursue, +Yes. +would that would improve things, certainly would improve things, Mr Chairman. +I mean +Presumably Department of Trade and Industry is it, contains erm, Minister of State under our local, all the six Lincolnshire M P's. +Mm +Chairman, I have spoken to Kenneth Carlyle and his and he's very sympathetic. +Right. +So the the be sympathetic response from us. +Yes. +Fine. +Is that agreed then? +Agreed. +Agreed. +Thank you. +Thank you, Michael. +If we could move to Paper E. Item six, Joint Staffing Watch. +Again, back to yourself, Michael. +Erm, Chair, this is the Joint Staffing Watch for September ninety-three, and its mandatory on the County Council, that it's presented to the committee, er, within a period of preparation as it is issued to the media. +It's the snap-shot of people paid in a period, and it has in it comparisons with the previous quarter, June ninety-three and the previous year, September ninety-two. +There are in this second page national comparisons between June ninety-two and June, ninety-three between local authorities. +It is of limited usefulness, and it's perhaps a requirement on local government that they could very well drop. +Erm, because it seems to, with the changing nature of organisation of authorities, it's used as a comparative purpose, must be er, very doubtful, and we've always criticised it, er beginning the position snapshot on a particular the day, it doesn't say what's in the pipeline or what's going out of the pipeline at the other end. +And we do know that from Septem the September report is a particular unreliable one. +Erm, but there it is, it it has value just in itself as a snapshot. +The next papers that we have, Chairman, are much more useful in management terms, and er, if anybody has any questions on this particular report, I'll I'll be happy to try and answer it. +Thank you. +If we just pause for a moment and look at the A C C digest that the papers see. +There is an item about this joint staffing watch at item ten, which suggests that the government are also finding that it's got limited use, and are suggesting that these returns should be completed on a different basis, and rather than quarterly, annually. +So, this joint staffing watch as it exists at the moment, has got a very restricted shelf life, an and I doubt if it's going to survive. +But, anybody want to ask any questions, or raise any points about about it. +next year, it's very limited use, and we find the same situation in South which is, move that we agreed to that in the report. +Anybody else. +Is that agreed, Jim? +Fine. +At the farmers expense. +Agreed to the report be noted, then. +Agreed. +Agreed. +Thank you. +At much +A much more substantial document. +Paper F, Employee Resource Report. +Erm, Chris. +Thank you, Chair. +Can I just remind er members on the er, additional papers that were placed in fron in front of them this morning. +Page thirty-two about Translink you'll substitute for page thirty-two in the report, and the report on Linkway Construction fit happily between pages twenty-six and twenty-seven, and apologies for the lateness of that particular +report. +Paper F, I believe, gives you, as the Employing Committee of the County Council, a mine of information about the employee profile of Lincolnshire County Council. +It's numbers, permanent, temporary, casual employees at a at er er first of October, via employment group, full-time, part-time, agenda, grades and ward salary and so forth. +In addition, of course , there is a brief commentary by the Departmental Head or the General Manager of the Public Service Unit, saying something about the movement in staffing over the previous year, and a brief word or two about what is going to happen in the current and future years. +This report, of course, is capable of further refinement and we will welcome any suggestions for further refinement and we want to improve it. +We do want to provide information that is useful to you in in in the overall management of the employees resource and accounting. +Erm, always has a +cavia I think the Parliament use, that it er, the cost preparing such detailed information must not be disproportionate er to the use it's going to have, and with that cavia we would welcome further er erm, suggestions as to refinement, and er, I'm not going to go through this in detail. +It is all there for you, and we will endeavour to answer any questions that you may have. +If we can't answer them this very day, or in fact, if they do not occur to you this very day, but on subse quent occasions, of course, we will endeavour to answer the points a little later on. +Thank you. +Certainly we employ thirteen thousand, seven hundred and ninety-one staff as at the first of October. +A substantial work-force, and this is th a valuable document, a wealth of information. +Welcome any comments. +Just to congratulate the officers for putting this together. +Er, I think as the other previous document was usefu useless, this is useful, and I mean, I think it's er something we can't take in a day and night, to spend, to spent some more time over this, because,yo you know, it does reflect very well on, on er, particularly that er, information that we needed earlier, in terms and and er. +I think, you know, it it it's er something we made not all that +Thank you. +Councillor +Erm, just a quick erm, question, please, Chairman. +Will this be available to the Trade Unions? +This document. +I'm sure it will be. +I'm sure, if it's not already +Well, I'm sure they. +I'm sure they will want,what the previous one was, actually. +Useless now +Thank you. +Councillor +Yes, Chairman, two questions. +First on page nine, Computer Services Er, I know we see an increase in the staff Information Technology. +Has there been a corresponding decrease or, has there been an increase at all in other departments er, due, one presumes through having more information there will be a staffing reduction elsewhere. +Has this occurred? +I think, sir it will be very very difficult to identify, erm, quite where the reductions are. +As you know the authorities or control very very closely, as to the additional members of staff that come on. +Erm, and each Chief Officer and each General Manager has to er, look very very closely as to whether we can afford additional staff and er recruit them. +But, to identify one on and one off, as it were, throughout the organisation, I it would be er, virtually impossible. +In addition, of course , there are great demand for increased information. +Indeed, what you have before you, is a demand for increased information, and this is generated by er, a computer system, for example. +The growth of er, Information Technology in mounting information is required at member level and chief officer level has indeed been enormous over these years, and does not necessarily reflect in reductions elsewhere. +Thank you. +Just another question I want to know. +Sure. +Okay. +No no problem. +Er, page thirty-six, paragraph two The new Environment Officer The first, the question first, and as I understand it, please correct me, erm, the agreement policy was, there was to be one Environment Officer, Personal Assistant. +Here is, that there's mentioned of further assistance. +Also, there is also, further assistance, further assistance to or support to members in addition to the extra secretary that is being established. +First questio , the question, and I'd like to comment as well is, erm, what, are there plans for the future of greatly expanding Environment Department, er, and why is it er, and why is it not being put through policy, first. +Wh wh what I remember going through policy is the fact that we wanted to employ us Environment Officer with some clerical support, and I think that that's actually what went to policy. +And that is what is agreed, sir. +The er, Environment Officer post has been established and has been filled. +The clerical support office, officer has not yet been filled, and that is one of the two mentioned. +Because of one of the two mentioned here in this note has nothing at all to do with the environment. +Yes, well it is er, yes, well I comment on that, when I get more +Yeah. +So +Yes. +That that's, I think that's +So the posts that are to be established and to be filled are exactly as those approved by the Policy Committee. +No more. +So. +So as far as I know there are no plans. +So are you omitting to say what exactly has been in numbers. +One Environment Officer. +One Clerical Support. +Yes, well, I see fr from this, it's it's not exactly clear, not exactly is what is intended. +It implies there are more to come. +Not, not to my knowledge. +Thank you. +Well, I'd just like to comment on the, as here we're talking about the Environment Officer. +Er, I should know that, or certainly agree that all the staff in the Environment must have coped ade adequately well before under the preceding system where each officer, each department was was instructed to deal with the environment as it came along. +Er, I'm in the view, that this er, Environment Department is at the moment, is doing nothing at all, anything that's happened so far. +It don't seem to be any good at all, whatsoever. +So I believe it is a rather a waste of money, it's just talking shop, shuffling papers about, and we regret that in in the time when er resources are difficult, staffing could be put elsewhere instead of this +Right, I note your comments. +But don't agree with them, but were certainly noted. +Councillor +Thank you. +with these posts as well, because it has actually stated we have employed an Environmental Officer. +Yes, we know that. +And then there are two further posts, two five's over the next twelve months. +One to provide assistant to the Environment Officer and the other to provide further assistants into to members. +Right. +Instead of one extra, there's two extra. +Yeah, I th I mean, I I can I can see precisely where you're coming from. +But I think that the two further posts, one is provide assistance to the Environment Officer, which is a clerical support that Councillor referred to. +Full stop. +The other post, nothing to do with the environment, to provide further assistance and support to members. +But why should members need even more support. +I mean. +Hang on, that's not the same question as the environment. +I think we've got that one sorted out, haven't we? +It's +I'm sorry, this is all under environment +Yes. +No, it's not +No, it's not. +It's under the Exe Execs Department Employee Resources. +Yes. +I appreciate that, but it comes in the same paragraph, so it, you must admit that it's a little er, confusing. +Well, it's not meant to be. +I I mean, there was no intention to to do that. +I think we can agree, that there's one Environment Officer, one Clerical Support for the Environment Officer, and one erm, of clerical support for assistance and support to members. +Now, I think once we've established that, we can have argument about whether members need more assistance, but at least we're arguing on the same basis, aren't we? +I agree now, yes, it was just all in the same paragraph, and it just sort of a bit odd. +Point taken. +Councillor +Thank you, Chairman. +One of my constituents that I read in the newspaper about the erm, the green way in which the party should be moving, and said that erm, he would like me to express my disquiet to and I thought this, perhaps this would be quite a useful place to his disquiet, but Council tax money is being spend on this sort of erm, work when there are far more urgent erm, services needed in the County, and he would much rather have the highways, er, money from, which is now going into the Environment to go into highways, erm, so as er, Chairman council, I'm passing his comments on to you, through this committee. +He feels it's a complete waste of money, and he would like it to go , please. +So, I pass this message on. +Right. +Some people take a view that the quality of of of land, air and water in Lincolnshire is important +Yes, er maybe I wouldn't have mentioned it, but er, well, that's a story of one like dozens of people, congratulating us, that at long last we're going to do something about the environment and protect it for the future of our children, and they consider it money well spent, and asking the question, why wasn't it never done before. +I think they know the answer. +But it was it was so restrictive, the er, the way that it was handled, you know, just with the er, senior members of the conservative meeting and the er Friends of the Earth and such as that. +It never came to the fore. +So that now at least the people are becoming more aware, +and people are more aware of the environment so, so I see no problems on that score whatsoever from members, and er not convince people, but er we er advising them more of what's going on, and becoming more aware of the problems that there are within the environment. +Before I move on to other contributions, can I remind everybody that we are dealing with the Employee Resources Report. +And this is not a sub-committee of the sub-committee of Environment. +Right. +You've been very indulgent, Chair. +Councillor +Thank you Chairman, I I can note that remark, but I do think that we do have to defend the position a little on environmental issues. +I mean, the the Tories are ready, shouldn't they complete to environmental issues, whereas every every public consultation or survey that ever carried out, demonstrates every time, that the public are very concerned that they're, of the environment and they will put it at the top of the list, and I think our con the environment by having a dedicated Environment Officer proves our positive er commitment to the environment. +It's it's it seems to me to be applauded. +Obviously, it's something that's gonna develop, and er, as times does on, more and more issues are gonna be referred to this committee. +Thank you. +Councillor +Thank you, Chairman, +just a brief comment. +I can't remembered who said it a little earlier but they said that the er, conservatives er dealt with the environment as it came along, and it's it's been all too apparent that they kep dealt with it as it came along. +It was hit and miss, and it was more miss than hit. +And,qui and most certainly demonstrated the need to set up the very same committee as we have set up. +Thank you. +Thank you, Chairman. +A bonus for anybody who wants to move away from page thirty-six, when they make a contribution. +I've got Councillors erm, and who have spoken already. +I think I'll er, I think you ought to move on, Chair. +Right. +Any anybody else? +I'm not, I'd be happy if you were to come back, but not on the environment. +It's just that I've really Chairman, page thirty- three, little one could somebody er the growth, a review of the authority contracts hire for officers. +Why is there, I've assumed from that, there is a need for more contract hire for the officers. +Why is this? +If I'm, please, if I'd known I'm sorry, sir +Yes, it is in the authorities interests that as many of it's travelling employees as possible use the car contract hire scheme, because it saves the authority money, and yes, officers around this large county have the cheapest possible rates. +To see that there is a take up of the car contract hire scheme, it constantly has to be held, or kept unde , the scheme has to be kept under review, to make sure that it is attractive and it is what er, the employees want to see, and would prefer rather than an alternate means of transport. +So we're, do encourage it, we hope that it will grow and resume counties interest if it does grow. +If it does grow, then there is a certain amount of administration that has to go along with it. +All of which is costed in. +Point.