Apple’s App Store fees are ‘highway robbery’ – House antitrust committee chair - walterbell
https://www.theverge.com/2020/6/18/21295778/apple-app-store-hey-email-fees-policies-antitrust-wwdc-2020
======
ageitgey
I don't think the pressure on Apple is going to let up. Smart phones are no
longer a tech toy and have become a literal part of government and commercial
infrastructure. Apple's arbitrary power over the platform is pissing off and
embarrassing governments in the COVID era.

During COVID, governments around the world have been making major decisions
based on mobility data from Apple and Google which shows trends of where
people are visiting and what mode of transit they are using. The real-time
mobility data from Apple and Google is far better than anything the government
has itself. This is a big wake-up call to the governments that they have been
basically supplanted by private companies. I'm sure no president or prime
minister likes having to give a press conference where they have to say
"According to Apple, we see good compliance with government regulations...."

Yesterday, the UK announced it was abandoning its own COVID contract tracing
app and moving to the Apple model because they couldn't figure out how to make
iPhones wake up via bluetooth (because that's a private API only available to
Apple). A major western government is facing huge public embarrassment in a
public health crisis over what comes down to not having permission from Apple
to use a specific API in an app. That's the kind of thing that pisses off
politicians, regardless of whether or not you think the UK followed the best
technical path.

Combine all that with Apple now forcing companies to adopt their sign-in
systems and payment methods in order to reach what is now part of the public
infrastructure and Apple has created a situation where they've managed to piss
off everyone across the political spectrum, from the hard-core free market
people to the leftist public good people.

~~~
kjakm
>> Yesterday, the UK announced it was abandoning its own COVID contract
tracing app and moving to the Apple model because they couldn't figure out how
to make iPhones wake up via bluetooth (because that's a private API only
available to Apple). A major western government is facing huge public
embarrassment in a public health crisis over what comes down to not having
permission from Apple to use a specific API in an app.

I would not take the government at its word here. Their entire contact tracing
program has been a shambles. They contracted the work out to their friends,
put the ex-CEO of one of the countries worst ISP's in charge and wasted months
trying to hack together their own soution that was never going to work in the
first place. If it was really an Apple issue they could go ahead and release
their Android app.

~~~
saagarjha
Making an iPhone do work in the background is fairly non-trivial, and not
launching for that platform is suicide for a contract tracing app.

------
matheusmoreira
Apple wants to own iPhone consumers so that anyone who wants access to that
demographic must pay the toll and follow their rules. It's far too much power
for one corporation. Nice to see authorities are starting to take the matter
seriously.

~~~
sjwright
That's fine, but how are you going to construct legislation that specifically
targets Apple's walled garden without breaching the Fourteenth Amendment?

~~~
mirchibajji
Genuinely curious. I was under the impression that Constitution applies to
people, and the govt. I'd appreciate if you point to any references for
Constitution being applied to corporations.

~~~
tomatotomato37
Corporations have had personhood for a while, it's why they also have free
speech protection and stuff. 14th amendment protection specifically was
decided in 1886
([https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Clara_County_v._Southe...](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Clara_County_v._Southern_Pacific_Railroad_Co.))

~~~
sjwright
Correct.

------
stunt
I believe Apple just don't see any reason to be nice. And probably that's what
many companies would do if they were in that position.

We know that we can't stay dominant forever,

We know someone will force us to reduce Apple-tax later,

So we have to get as much as we can, for as long as we can.

------
0xy
If you could choose between a fee decrease to 15% _or_ the ability to sideload
apps bypassing the store, which is more important? To me, the _only_ reason I
avoid iOS is specifically because I cannot install my own apps without using
the store.

~~~
Leherenn
I think capping fees would make it even worse, it would entrench the practice
as acceptable.

Allow sideloading and the price should move towards the equilibrium price.
Which very well might be 30%, since Google manages this despite allowing
sideloading.

The tricky question I would say is the accessibility of the alternative
stores. First there is the default/non-default install thing, we've seen how
it worked out for Microsoft. Then there are all the warnings/toggles about
unsafe external apps. This is much more difficult, since it's quite useful for
security, but at the same time it makes it much harder for alternative
stores/apps.

~~~
0xy
Visa and MasterCard charge somewhere between 1-3% (depends who you are and the
details of the purchase). PayPal charge around 5%. Some two-way marketplaces
charge upwards of 40%.

I think Apple is providing more value than PayPal, but less value than a two-
way marketplace.

For me, 30% is extortionate and predatory. 5% is too low for the value they
provide. 15% is quite high, but it can be justified given the value adds
(advertising, content delivery, reviews, last resort QA, security etc).

------
gremlinsinc
Imagine if Credit card processing companies took 30%. I mean it's a little
more than that being a marketplace too, so maybe since Stripe takes 2-3%,
apple could take 5-8% that would seem more 'reasonable'. IMHO.

~~~
routerhash
That would work if apple force eCommerce companies that has an app in app
store to sell through apple payment system and give a cut of 2-3% to apple

------
makecheck
One of the things I never understood is why Apple doesn’t have _tiers_ of
pricing and support.

Why not “5% for app-upload capability and a plain store page with nothing
else”, up to “30% for lots of nice bells and whistles” or even “50% for
regular featuring to potential customers”?

People would not complain about 30% nearly as much if there were any
alternative. (And they are right to complain about how little 30% gets them
currently.)

------
newbie578
Apple has over 50% marketshare in the U.S. in the mobile market, so by
marketshare they have a case for a monopoly.

So for 150 million people Apple are the Gatekeepers, you have to pay the Troll
it's fee or it won't let you past.

And people here are saying if you don't like Apple, don't make apps for iOS?
Please try to do a business project in a market where you ignore 50% of the
market and let me know how you fair out :)

Jason Freid of BaseCamp gave a good argument: If you are handling the search,
marketing and production of the app by yourself, why do you STILL need to pay
the 30% tax? Imagine paying AWS 30% of your revenue just for hosting
privileges :)

And don't forget that even IF you try to make the argument for hosting, they
are hosting the app on Apple Store because Apple doesn't allow ANOTHER way of
downloading an app. This is a really important fact. Imagine if you used
Windows and you couldn't download programs except over Windows Store. Just try
to imagine Windows not allowing Steam to distribute over the web...

------
rydre
Anyone who cares about this issue, just upvote, don't comment. HN's algorithm
downranks posts where the comment to upvote ratio is too high.

~~~
bluesign
Yeah and there is a reason for that and it’s working well to be honest.

Gaming the system is never good option.

~~~
rydre
Maybe they should change the algorithm then. There is an important discussion
going on and the dumb algorithm thinks its better to just brush it away and
kick the can down the road.

------
Apocryphon
Perhaps this is apophenia, but it appears that societal tensions are boiling
over from all corners, against all kinds of established authorities, no?

~~~
loopz
This is the expected outcome from introspection (Corona period).

~~~
nunodonato
astrologers will have a different interpretation ;)

~~~
agustif
Eclipse + Solstice in 48h

------
t0ughcritic
Generally only gaming companies can afford to pay or money losing vc
companies. Let me just state generally again, most other companies just don’t
sell via IAP as it’s too expensive. I’ve been saying this here for months and
Google is guilty too 100%. These two control discoverability (search and ads),
hosting (all data to copy your app), and monetization (charge tax on any
profit you make). Why? Because they can and are evil. Doesn’t leave room for
new consumer startups anymore and increases prices for consumers.

------
Larrikin
As much as I agree with the stance against I hate the coverage and the press
this is getting with people evangelicizing the CEO. He's regularly referenced
on this site by his initials (which even as a regular reader of tech news I
had to look up) which comes across as cult of personality at best and
astroturfing at worse.

~~~
deltron3030
He actually is a kind of cult personality in the tech world because he wrote
Ruby on Rails (which itself was kind of contrarian to most other things in
that space), and it's the foundation lots of web software startups are build
on. There would be no Twitter or Github without him.

------
sjwright
If the US Government wants to place limits on certain fees, they should pass a
law limiting such fees.

Meanwhile, it's a bit hypocritical for the US Government to accuse private
corporations of ‘highway robbery’ when they themselves are committing (or
failing to outlaw) literal highway robbery in the form of civil forfeiture.

~~~
AnthonyMouse
> Meanwhile, it's a bit hypocritical for the US Government to accuse private
> corporations of ‘highway robbery’ when they themselves are committing (or
> failing to outlaw) literal highway robbery in the form of civil forfeiture.

Indeed it is. So they should address both, not use the current existence of
one to excuse the other.

~~~
sjwright
To be clear, I wasn't saying that one excused the other. I was only commenting
on the congressperson's poor choice of words.

------
kmlx
help me understand. why such big fuss for such a small platform? isn't
google's android much much bigger? if apple's app store is still the place to
be due to profits made on the platform then apple is doing something right,
no? if they stopped would the app store still be the place for apps?

p.s. haven't installed an app in over a year. i have no interest in mobile
apps whatsoever.

~~~
lm28469
The market share of the iPhone in the US is around 50%

~~~
greggman3
Yes, and the next largest phone maker's market share is Samsung at 20-25%.
Android doesn't make phones. Google makes some phones but their market share
is tiny.

~~~
kmlx
ah, this is an interesting point. thanks.

------
Nasrudith
Perhaps it is a matter of my preestablished cynicisms but this seems like a
campaign contribution shakedown/stupid election year publicity stunt where
they rail against a big bad company for complete bullshit reasons. I don't get
why people go with the Apple locked down system personally but they aren't
even a majority of the market nor a plurality.

There is absolutely no reason to believe that the House gives a shit about
interoperability given the DMCA and lack of right to repair laws.

~~~
koheripbal
Google isn't much better. I suspect the government is going to force both of
them to open their app store with anti-trust suits.

------
sooheon
Apple may be robbers, but they're not trolling a public highway, they're
demanding fees if you want to drive on the highway that they built. Build a
better ecosystem around better devices, better software, better marketing, and
better services, and you can also charge whatever you want, or make it free.
That is competition. Wanting to drive on someone else's walled highway (which
leads directly to eyeballs and open wallets) and also refusing to pay their
fee is not competition.

~~~
Hamuko
So are we establishing that if you want to create a paid email service with a
custom app without wanting to pay 30% of your revenue to Apple, you need to
create a competing mobile ecosystem that can rival that of Apple's ($260
billion yearly revenue) and Google's ($162 billion yearly revenue)?

How is this beneficial for innovation and for consumers?

~~~
sooheon
What's beneficial for consumers is the fact that the Apple ecosystem exists at
all. People pay because it's a good experience. Everyone is welcome to create
good end-user experiences with open technologies like PWA, and distribute
however they wish. It's strange to me to say on the one hand "we could not
survive without the iOS customer pool, we _need_ to make a native app because
it's the greatest experience, but we don't want to pay the platform that makes
it all possible".

~~~
Hamuko
> _Everyone is welcome to create good end-user experiences with open
> technologies like PWA_

Everyone who isn't targetting Apple devices that is.

I'd also like to take this opportunity to remind everyone that it is not
possible to publish an application on the Apple App Store without paying.
Period end.

I also don't see why there's an expectation that Hey has to pay Apple for
providing the app. They are trying to bring out an app to allow their
customers on Apple devices to be able to use their service. It's not like
they're just putting their app there for marketing because the App Store is
absolutely horrible at any kind of marketing.

This is a bit like expecting Netflix to pay Comcast, AT&T and every other ISP
for the priviledge of using their networks. Netflix's customers are already
paying those companies just like how Hey's customers are paying for their
Apple devices.

~~~
sjwright
> I'd also like to take this opportunity to remind everyone that it is not
> possible to publish an application on the Apple App Store without paying.
> Period end.

I'd also like to take this opportunity to remind everyone that the same is
true for games on the Xbox, PlayStation and nearly every mainstream games
console for the past thirty years. Pretty much every games console software
title included a healthy cut for Nintendo, Sega, Microsoft, or Sony. And if
you didn't have the explicit blessing of these companies, you couldn't publish
your games at all. Period end.

Where was your outrage then?

~~~
Hamuko
> _Where was your outrage then?_

Where was the game publishers' outrage? Where was the game developers'
outrage?

Gaming console makers and game developers have way better relations than Apple
and the people developing for the App Store. And the game console makers' cut
isn't just pure greed. Sony took an estimate loss of $240-$300 on every PS3
sold at launch just in order to widen out the install base.

~~~
sjwright
> Where was the game publishers' outrage?

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sega_v._Accolade](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sega_v._Accolade)

> Gaming console makers and game developers have way better relations

Let's set aside the unproven assumptions; so your logic is that if you're a
nice platform monopolist, you can charge arbitrary platform access fees. But
if you're a bunch of meanies, different laws shall apply to you. I'm sorry, I
was under the misapprehension that you were making a serious point.

> Sony took an estimate loss of $240-$300 on every PS3

Now I know you're not being serious. Such behaviours are anti-competitive as
it would be exceedingly difficult for a new market entrant to compete with
such artificially low console prices. What you're saying is that the US
Government should enact laws which favour dumping and loss-leader activity.
Ridiculous.

~~~
Apocryphon
> Let's set aside the unproven assumptions; so your logic is that if you're a
> nice platform monopolist, you can charge arbitrary platform access fees. But
> if you're a bunch of meanies, different laws shall apply to you. I'm sorry,
> I was under the misapprehension that you were making a serious point.

You're not entirely wrong:

[https://www.ign.com/articles/2019/10/07/report-
steams-30-cut...](https://www.ign.com/articles/2019/10/07/report-
steams-30-cut-is-actually-the-industry-standard)

> One source explained that although Steam only takes 30%, other fees and
> deductions mean they are usually collecting closer to 65% on their end,
> while they say console sales return much closer to the full 70% but are
> stingier with refunds and the like.

> Another source also stressed that just because a retailer takes 30% doesn’t
> mean the developer of the game actually gets the other 70%, saying
> publishers often earn between 30-70% of a sale themselves depending on the
> deal that has been struck. There are also engine licensing fees to consider
> (games that use Unreal have its 5% fee waived if they are sold on the Epic
> Store), taxes, and other costs not factored into what many people assume the
> actual creator of a game earns. One source said their takeaway from a
> physical retailer at the end of the day is often between just 10-15%.

You know, maybe this doesn't have to end with Apple. The Google Play store
charges a 30% service fee as well. Maybe the entire pricing system of the
industry is fucked, and worth further scrutiny. Furthermore, it's been
repeatedly brought up in the discourse over the publishing industry's recent
lawsuit against Internet Archive that the industry standard for book
publishing are contracts where the publishers pocket 75% of book sales, while
the author retain the rest. Meanwhile, you hear horror stories out of the
music industry where artists are paid a pittance. This can be an endemic
problem that's afflicting multiple industries at once. Maybe we can confer our
righteous indignation both at Apple, and the rest. And maybe we ought to
figure out a better way to help creators, whether app developers, game
developers, authors, or musicians, get the pay they're due.

~~~
sjwright
FWIW, I completely agree with everything you wrote. I'm not opposed to new
laws that set a limit on platform access fees—but such laws can't be targeted
at Apple exclusively. They have to be applied to any company which charges
fees for access to an exclusive market.

~~~
Apocryphon
Certainly, but maybe this public outcry and exposure from an antitrust
investigation will educate people about the structural problems in this
industry and lead to greater change that will apply to more companies than
just Apple.

~~~
sjwright
I'm totally cool with that.

------
hyko
Why should I pay $99 per year for a hey.com email address? Robbery! I demand
the courts lower this to 9¢ immediately, which I deem to be the true value of
an email address. Hey are abusing their monopoly power over the hey.com
domain...this will not stand! Burn it to the ground! Write to your
congressman! I’ll spend my millions fighting this! Over my dead body!

I’ll chase them round the moons of Nibea and round Antares Maelstrom and round
perdition's flames before I pay $99 for a fucking email address!

* I’m available for podcast interviews to promote my wares for a very reasonable fee. Hating hey.com is optional. No purchase necessary. Other email providers are available.

~~~
koheripbal
The rules change when a company has a near-monopoly and practices anti-
competitive tactics to nerf their competition.

That's why we have anti-trust laws.

------
natch
>It’s crushing small developers who simply can’t survive with those kinds of
payments.

Oh I don't know. The "small developers who can't survive" he's talking to here
have multiple hypercars and I don't think they are small or facing survival
challenges.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pagani_Zonda#HH](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pagani_Zonda#HH)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koenigsegg_Agera](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koenigsegg_Agera)

Sure there are smaller developers. But the sense of entitlement is a bit much.
Once you've written some software, that does not mean you are entitled to have
people pay for your life from here on out.

I mean you have developers who have written software once, do not maintain it,
and would charge subscription fees if they could, for software they don't
update. There is a spectrum of behaviors, and there is a cost for running a
store to corral all those behaviors into some order that average consumers can
deal with. And then there are even legal bills to pay, for fighting off people
who own hypercars and feel wronged.

There could be some room for the fees to come down now that the App Store is
well established. But it's not quite how it's being portrayed… highway
robbery? Way too dramatic.


Apple Ipad Being Used As An Educational Resource - techsavys
http://www.techsavys.info/2011/01/apples-ipad-goes-educational-being-used.html

======
techsavys
For the first time a tablet is being used as an educational resource what do
you guys think? Isn't that cool?


Kotlin M12 is out - orangy
http://blog.jetbrains.com/kotlin/2015/05/kotlin-m12-is-out/

======
tauchunfall
For those who want to try it out: There is a small web-based editor with
syntax highlighting, compile checking and code completion at
[http://try.kotlinlang.org/](http://try.kotlinlang.org/).

It currently runs on 0.11.91.1, but will (hopefully) soon be updated to
0.12.200 (M12). The reference documentation was already updated for M12:
[http://kotlinlang.org/docs/reference/](http://kotlinlang.org/docs/reference/).

------
jan1021488
Its a shame nobody cares, since this is a really nice language IMO.

~~~
zserge
Kotlin is a really good language. I really want it to be my primary language
for android development. The only problem I have now is build times. It's
about twice as slow to build a Kotlin app than Java app.

~~~
k__
Is this a jvm specific problem? Scala seems to have huge build times too.

~~~
zserge
Big programming languages are built from big JARs (compiler, runtime, stdlib).
Loading those each time in memory is a long process. Using nailgun saves ~10
seconds on my laptop.

Another problem is compiler performance (both Kotlin and Scala compilers
compile less statements per second than Javac), but it's not that dramatic.

Finally, dexing languages with runtime (kotlin - ~200KB, scala - more than
1MB) takes time.

Luckily, Buck optimizes most of it.

------
zserge
I'm now trying to use Buck build system with Kotlin. It looks like in the M12
kotlin-compiler.jar the annotation NotNull.class is embedded twice.


Grooveshark in HTML5 (ios compatible) - pitdesi
http://html5.grooveshark.com/
======
1880
I'll be using this a lot on my underpowered Linux netbook. Flash had a very
high CPU usage even for simple audio streaming.

It needs accounts support, though.


'Father of Financial Futures' Seeks Cryptocurrency Hardware Patent - elmar
https://www.coindesk.com/father-financial-futures-seeks-cryptocurrency-hardware-patent/
======
lawless123
sounds like a hardware wallet...

~~~
elmar
yes, a hardware wallet tailored for derivatives trading.