Depression, anxiety rising among U.S. college students - HNLurker2
https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-health-mental-undergrads/depression-anxiety-rising-among-u-s-college-students-idUKKCN1VJ25Z
======
tempsy
I think a huge part of it is that getting a “good” job out of college has
never been more competitive and more important. The idea that one works their
way up from a secretarial position to executive could not be more unrealistic
today. On the other hand, if you beat the competition (your peers) to get a
reputable corporate gig at a big co, well known startup, or prestigious
consulting or banking you’re setting yourself up for life. Not getting one of
those jobs out of college makes it near impossible to be hired at those
companies even a year or two down the road simply because many of those
companies source all their entry level people from colleges and past interns.

Your trajectory is just so different depending on your first job and I think
everyone is acutely aware but no one wants to talk about it.

~~~
hourislate
I don't know if you read the article but I think the authors clearly state
what they think is the issue and it isn't finding your first job.

From the article:

>“It suggests that something is seriously wrong in the lives of young people
and that whatever went wrong seemed to happen around 2012, or 2013,” said
study coauthor Jean Twenge. She noted that this was around the time
smartphones became common and social media moved from being optional to
mandatory among youngsters.

>The study wasn’t designed to determine the causes of the increases in mental
health issues among college students, though the authors speculate about a
variety of possibilities. Smartphone use, for example, has been associated
with poorer sleep quality and fewer face-to-face interactions, both of which
are deemed essential for mental health, the researchers write in the Journal
of Adolescent Health.

~~~
nilkn
Just based on only my own experiences and perception, the entire news
apparatus of the United States seems to have underwent a rapid shift starting
approximately in 2013. Outside of only a small handful of venerable
institutions like The New York Times, news and social media seem to be merging
in a way that is completely changing the character of how important
information is delivered to millions of people. It was a shift towards a level
of partisanship, hostility, and fear-mongering that, to me at least, has felt
utterly unprecedented. Anecdotally, this has caused me a great deal of
personal stress, and I've had to become extremely diligent with how I consume
news media in order to maintain a healthy state of mind.

I can't help but wonder if the effect of this would've been magnified if were
younger, less prepared to deal with it, and just now entering college instead
of being half a decade out of college.

~~~
archeantus
This is the right answer. Smartphones aren’t inherently bad, but they enable
things that are toxic without us understanding - chief among them the news.

Back in college I thought it was the grown up thing to do to read the news
everyday. Fast forward ten years and I’ve finally realized how much
frustration and misery the news (Twitter) was bringing into my life.

As of a week and a half ago, I’m now completely off of the news. I deleted the
news app, blocked Twitter and FB from Safari, and avoid other news sites. The
outcome has been remarkable! My wife continues to remark how much less
irritable I’ve become and how much less stressed I seem. I use HN to stay
current on industry news, but I can honestly say I don’t miss that other
stuff.

To anyone reading this that is hooked on news consumption - try cutting it
from your life! It is a life-changing experience.

~~~
Kaveren
It's such a sheltered attitude I see on HN where people talk about just
ignoring the news, when you know that you don't have to worry about anything
bad happening to you. It's a civic responsibility in a democracy to be
informed. Even if you can't influence much with one particular vote depending
on where you live, your voice can do a lot (see the NRA).

There's people dying in Yemen from a war that the US is supporting. There are
serious debates occurring about the future of the economy which will have
massive repercussions. Climate change poses a threat to the stability of
civilization. We're coming to a crossroads with government surveillance
issues.

It is deeply annoying when I see that people just tune out. You don't need to
obsess over the latest 24 hour news cycle, but it's important not to be a
personal isolationist for the good of society.

~~~
caseysoftware
Fundamentally, I agree with you _except_ :

\- That assumes the situation is presented without an agenda or - at minimum -
a disclosed agenda.

\- That the coverage is an accurate - and preferably complete - summary of the
situation.

\- And that it's clear which details are facts vs assumptions vs conjecture vs
conclusions vs whatever.

Unfortunately, we have few of those things at best. There are many ways to be
informed, the current media is not a good, useful, or productive way to do
that on just about any topic.

~~~
TeMPOraL
Also, additional assumption: that most of the news is in any way actionable or
even relevant to your life. In vast majority of cases, it isn't.

People don't read the news to be informed (otherwise they wouldn't tolerate
the ridiculously low journalistic standards of today). They consume news
because it gives them stuff to talk about with other people. Whether or not
the stories are true is irrelevant, as long as everyone hears the same
stories. The psychological cost of these stories is, however, unaccounted for.

------
Vomzor
I think it's parenting. Parents started to become overprotective somewhere in
the late 90's and it's only getting worse. Kids don't learn to deal with
setbacks anymore. So the real world overwhelms them.

There's a book, The Coddling of the American Mind, that explains the problem
much better than I do.

"First Amendment expert Greg Lukianoff and social psychologist Jonathan Haidt
show how the new problems on campus have their origins in three terrible ideas
that have become increasingly woven into American childhood and education:
What doesn’t kill you makes you weaker; always trust your feelings; and life
is a battle between good people and evil people. These three Great Untruths
contradict basic psychological principles about well-being and ancient wisdom
from many cultures. Embracing these untruths—and the resulting culture of
safetyism—interferes with young people’s social, emotional, and intellectual
development. It makes it harder for them to become autonomous adults who are
able to navigate the bumpy road of life."

[https://www.thecoddling.com](https://www.thecoddling.com)

~~~
adjkant
> Kids don't learn to deal with setbacks anymore. So the real world overwhelms
> them.

It doesn't sound like you interact with many "kids" these days. As someone
surrounded mostly by them, I can assure you none of this is true. Sad to see
this upvoted so highly and especially sad to see people pointing out this is a
long brought up conservative talking point with no evidence downvoted. I
thought we got over this myth 10 years ago. Yet people still want to yell at
Mr. Rodgers for caring about child psychology and being on the forefront of
mental health in a real way...

Perhaps one should look to the external world these people are coming into for
answers. Climate change, the economy, and the political climate with hateful
policies against many people over the world in many countries.

Not to mention that mental health being destigmatized raises statistical
reporting rates as people are simply more open about it.

But yeah, let's blame bad parenting that people first accused millennials of
when no millennials are even left in the post high school college population.

~~~
ThrowawayR2
> _Climate change, the economy, and the political climate with hateful
> policies against many people over the world in many countries..._

Because none of that stuff existed in the '50s, '60s, and '70s? /s

Just substitute "nuclear war for "climate change".

~~~
205guy
I agree with those saying climate change is a huge stressor for young
generations. I had the same argument with a friend about fear of nuclear war
into the 80's, but she convinced me it wasn't the same. They are both
existential fears, but nuclear war was something that only the military could
make happen, and as long as it didn't happen, life could go on as usual (well
not really, we know now). Whereas climate change is happening slowly but
surely all around and everyone will have to change their behavior to avoid it.

My wife and I cannot talk about climate change around our kids because they
understand how scary it is and we see their fear about the consequences.

~~~
khyryk
I think this, in some way, can be interpreted in a way favorable to the
original parent's comment. Kids being stressed by climate change to the point
that their feelings overwhelm all of their coping mechanisms is not an
effective strategy for actually fixing the root cause.

Ideally, kids would develop, by trial and error, effective strategies for
identifying solvable problems and dealing with them, and not being extremely
negatively affected by (directly) unsolvable problems. It would be beneficial
for society if people heard about climate change and thought, "Okay, that
won't be good, so what are some things I can do in the short term and in the
long term to make a positive impact?" The great thing about such an approach
is that it's omni-applicable, such as when one's car breaks down on a long
drive, etc.

Parents who constantly hover around their kids presumably interfere with this
vital process, perhaps because these important lessons can only be discovered,
not forcibly taught.

~~~
lozenge
To me this is akin to saying that kids under slavery need to learn coping
strategies. Yes, it could help, but there is no reason to think it would
counteract the inherent effect of their environment - and it lays the blame in
entirely the wrong place.

------
Gustomaximus
I'm a big believer in social media being toxic for many people. I see the core
problems as it pushes life views to the extremes.

Its full of posts of 'see how great my life is' or 'see how bad the world is'.
This combined with a media intergrated into our lives almost real-time whose
organisations are all looking to maximise our attention.

We used to go through the world in a much simpler bubble and get our half
hours news window on TV or newspaper in the morning. And being connected to
the wider journeys of people for more realistic expectations e.g. rather than
seeing someone post a picture of a great car saying 'how good is this' you
also got to see they had been working and saving hard for a few years.

Ive thought about this a bunch and dont know how we can deal with it better. I
cant see social media going away. I tried one of those apps that shows the
screen time you spend but it didnt really change habits for me. I mentioned to
my partner the other day that we should consider setting on weekend day as a
screen free day.

I really think this is somethign important for society to work on.

~~~
sdrothrock
> Its full of posts of 'see how great my life is' or 'see how bad the world
> is'. This combined with a media intergrated into our lives almost real-time
> whose organisations are all looking to maximise our attention.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear_of_missing_out](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear_of_missing_out)

[https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs11031-018-9683-...](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs11031-018-9683-5)

[https://time.com/4358140/overcome-fomo/](https://time.com/4358140/overcome-
fomo/)

For a long time I thought "FOMO" was just a trendy bit of slang that hit the
nail on the head nicely, but it's actually a documented psychological
phenomenon (though I don't know which came first).

Ever since I learned about it, I've basically trained myself to not check
social media often and, when I do, to remind myself that the pieces I see of
other people's lives aren't representative of their lives as a whole, nor are
they representative of what I should be expecting or enjoying from my own
life. It's helped a little.

------
kingkawn
American culture has become a dysfunctional parody of itself, and young people
are left to grapple with a worldview that does not seem to adequately address
the world.

~~~
adjkant
This x 100. Most of Gen Z has become absurdist (memes only make sense to young
people often for this reason) out of necessity. The "adults" have failed them
and they have no power to change it. Depression and anxiety should only be
expected.

There really should also be more discussion about the complexity of the world
and decision fatigue, both of which I think are affecting people of all ages
but especially younger people.

------
tehjoker
Could it be the increasing inequality in the United States? The elimination of
most middle class jobs? The increasingly generational inheritance of wealth,
power, and connections? College debt? Asking for a friend.

~~~
waynecochran
I can't imagine the debt students are taking on now. Add to that the high
expense of housing. Why don't student speak up about this instead of defending
all the "safe space" and "trigger warning" nonsense?

~~~
sudosteph
I'm not Gen Z myself (millenial who graduated right before asking for pronouns
became a thing on college campuses), but that's a question I've asked myself
as I well.

I get the feeling that it's simply because they believe they have leverage
over the words people use on their campus, but no leverage over housing
expenses or other economic issues that actually have broader appeal.

Remember that neither Gen Z nor Millenials have ever witnessed significant
economic change that was brought on by direct action of normal people. Unions
have been utterly defanged and left-wing candidates never manage to win or
drive change either. Occupy Wall Street was the closest thing we've ever seen
to an economic solidarity movement, and that was widely mocked and derided as
an utter failure.

While the movement around language policing may give Gen Z the feeling of
participating in successful direct action, it unfortunately is contributing to
a schism between them and older generations who may be otherwise willing to
ally with them on broader causes, but are fearful of mis-stepping and being
called out publicly.

Of course, maybe that very same fear of public call-outs ties back to what one
of the professors in the article mentioned. The new generation is used to
having every little thing they do be potentially subjected to being recorded,
publicized, and criticized at any moment through social media. They are
constantly self-managing themselves and their social media presence with that
in mind. They don't see why older generations shouldn't be held to the same
standards - even if they'd rather be exempt from that standard themselves,
they accept it as reality.

There's a mockumentary series on netflix called "American Vandal", which
besides being funny, was surprisingly insightful about the challenges that
young adults are facing in part due to growing up with instagram, twitter,
etc. as part of their world. I have a lot more sympathy for them after
watching that.

~~~
tracer4201
>Remember that neither Gen Z nor Millenials have ever witnessed significant
economic change that was brought on by direct action of normal people.

Did you forget about the Great Recession and it’s economic impact? Do you
believe it didnt bring significant economic change or is it that it wasn’t
brought on by normal people? What exactly defines normal people in this
context or better yet, how is that relevant?

It’s confusing to me that despite the soaring costs of housing, the hyper
competitive job market ( kids compete not just against other Americans but
also students from other countries like India and China, where many of those
immigrant kids didn’t have the crushing college debt), the shrinking middle
class, and general deregulation that has shifted power to the wealthy -
despite all these issues, your view point of what affects these kids is based
around social media or more specifically, what standard these kids are held to
on social media.

~~~
sudosteph
Of course I remember the great recession - I mentioned Occupy. It was the
banks which caused the great recession. The politicians then responded to the
needs of the banks, not the people. There were some regulations around lending
added to protect banks from themselves, and a small stimulus package that most
of my generation didn't even receive. The average person though did not see
anything change meaningfully to make their economic situation better. So both
the change it brought was insignificant to the working class (aka "normal
people"), and the working class had no say over what changes were even
discussed (because Occupy was not taken seriously).

I agree with you on the importance of all those issues. My point is that we
have a large number of young people who are disillusioned with both the
current economic situation AND lacking confidence in historic tactics (ie,
direct action) that the working class used in the past to improve economic
situations (ie, joining a union, going on strike, electing leftist officials).

The neo-liberal philosophy that has been sold to Americans for the past few
decades teaches people that you are supposed to be able to effect change by
choosing with your wallet and advocating by mouth. This too is proving to be
ineffectual for meaningful change, but the concept does relate to my greater
point: the most powerful currency accessible to this generation is social
capital. It accumulates fast and spreads to all corners when it resonates.
Social capital is the only reason Trump could become president. It's making
and breaking careers (see the rise of "influencers" and streamers), and it's
playing out comparitively microscopic level as young people are using modern
communication frameworks to define their success in their personal social
spheres.

I'm not saying this is a good development. It does distract and divide the
working class from one-another. But I see why it happened, and don't think
it's apathy or selfishness that has caused this way of thinking to become
popular. Either the young generation will reject their hyper-connected
"always-on" culture, or the older ones will get on board. Until then it will
be hard to work together on bigger issues, and I doubt Gen Z can solve those
alone.

------
elicash
ITT: People taking whatever their pet issue is and saying THAT must be
responsible without having any data to back it up.

~~~
crummy
It's the increased prominence of languages with garbage collection that is
ruining children. They need to learn proper memory management!

~~~
defterGoose
And their music! It's just ones and zeroes!

------
dschuetz
TL;DR: people sharing their angst inside filter bubbles causes unrealistic
expectations from questionable sources

I think, thanks to social media classic socialization among students via
social events and clubs has ceased. Person to person interaction isn't a thing
anymore, but it's necessary to learn having realistic expectations. Most
people crave interaction, comparison, sharing experiences with others, this is
normal. With social media it's a two-fold problem: much more people are
involved in comparisons (likes, followers), so having little or no followers
doesn't help feeling worthy, and the expectation having to have followers at
all is unreasonable and unrealistic. The depression is based on doubts that
one has any significance in the world, plus, having to keep up with
competition. Then there is fear of missing out that drives anxiety like
wildfire.

There's pressure from everywhere, even internal. Why wasn't it that big a
thing back then? Because personal expectations weren't as bloated then as they
are now, and today's young people derive their expectations of themselves
(what they think they ought to be, to do) and expectations of others (what
they think they can expect from others) from the Internet, forums, social
networks mostly, not from _personal experience_. That is it. Personal physical
experience once provided the basis for expectations, people had to learn
everything themselves. But now people learn expectations from other peoples'
experiences, and not their own. So, today the unrealistic expectations of
other people are failing on us, naturally, and we are confronted with the
reality of things and people. This is what it feels like leaving one's
favorite Twitter filter bubble and learning that the actual world is different
and much more complicated.

And I didn't mention the job market yet, because I think it's just a part in
the pool of sources of pressure. Anxiety about one's job isn't as new as
people think. The awareness is different now, because _people share their
angst_ and amplify it via the social media making it even worse. Social media,
job situation, pressure are all parts of the same problem - unrealistic
expectations from questionable sources.

------
JulianMorrison
Could it be something to do with the CRUSHING BURDEN OF DEBT?

No, clearly it is smartphones.

~~~
grenoire
European students who are not under crushing debt are also having difficulties
with such mental health problems. The root of the anxiety and the following
depression is economic prospects and the terrible status quo.

~~~
JulianMorrison
Fair, although I expect you'd find less of it. The feeling of "I am literally
going to die owing this, I will never be free" isn't doing anyone but the
loan-owners any favours.

~~~
grenoire
In the end it's not a pissing contest by any means. The factors contributing
to the mental issues of European students might be different than the
Americans', but the overall _trend_ is apparent for both demographics.

Sadly enough, the environmental pressures faced in terms of economic situation
and extreme competition have been observed for a very long time in Asian
nations, exhibiting themselves in the form of suicides. I hope, deeply so,
that the West does not devolve that far...

------
alephnan
> Students may also avoid using resources on campus because some colleges may
> expel students who have suicidal ideation ... to avoid liability related to
> student suicides

~~~
throwoutIIIII
My (top tier) school forced me to take a medical leave of absence, which
required a doctors note to get back in and finish the degree. A very expensive
endeavor.

Edit: Ah, it says that right in the article. Yeah it sucks, I wouldn't trust
the schools mental health services again.

~~~
SomeOldThrow
Exact same scenario. I never ended up going back.

------
muzani
We have vastly increased wealth, and now every college student owns a credit
card, a smartphone, high speed internet, nice clothes, and has a far higher
likelihood of landing a good job with savings compared to 50 years ago. Or
even compared to graduates in poorer countries.

Maybe there's a mismatch between wealth and happiness.

------
quaquaqua1
Imagine taking out 200k in loans for an uncertain future income.

Imagine that previous generations paid less for the same hiring opportunities.

~~~
dantheman
These crazy loan amounts are not taken by most students. There are many ways
that most people choose to keep their costs low - living not as nice housing,
not going to your top school, working while in college.

Here's some stats: [https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/08/13/facts-
about...](https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/08/13/facts-about-
student-loans/)

Median bachelors degree debt: $25,000

Most of these people with huge debts are getting graduate degrees and they
significantly skew the results when looking at the average, the median is far
more insightful.

~~~
mattwest
An appropriate correction, but I don't think it changes the inevitable feeling
of doom that many college students and recent graduates face. $25,000 is an
enormous amount of debt, especially when there is a multitude of uncertainties
with the investment. When you borrow for a house or car, there is an
immediate, tangible benefit. With college, it's not so simple. It would be
great if you didn't need to go to college, but let's face it. You simply make
more money with a degree, and many employers require them. There is an
undeniable problem with tuition rates over time and its affect on the mental
health of many American students.

~~~
twblalock
$25k is actually less than the average price of a new car sold in the US. It's
not an enormous amount of debt. It's manageable.

Would it be better if students didn't owe money after college? Yes. Is the
student loan debt equivalent of a new midrange Toyota Camry a life-crushing
burden? No, not really.

~~~
TheOtherHobbes
Student debt is running at around 8% of US GDP.

It might or might not be a life-crushing burden for individuals. But it's
still an incredibly risky burden for a fragile economy.

And personally I don't find "And don't even think about a graduate degree
unless you want to end up with >$40k" all that reassuring for those with
postgrad talent and ambitions.

~~~
twblalock
I don't know who says "And don't even think about a graduate degree unless you
want to end up with >$40k". When I went to grad school the standard advice was
that you shouldn't go anywhere without a free ride in the form of tuition
waivers and/or a stipend or TA job.

Professional schools (law, medicine, MBA, etc.) are different, but they also
cost way more than $40k.

------
dgzl
Today's kids are essentially experiments. Being connected to the modern
internet from as early as age zero is going to have some very serious side
effects, and I don't believe parents understand that. This is especially bad
if the parents don't have the understanding or ability to keep the child's
experienced age appropriate.

------
elamje
Put simply, social media and news exists to drive clicks. Once you understand
that terrible news and completely misleading story titles drive clicks better
than anything else, you realize that there is almost no value in today’s news.

When you are listening to a news anchor, or reading a story, ask yourself one
simple question - “How is the organization maximizing profit off of this
story?”

Mainstream, advertising-supported, news sources will continue to devolve until
everyone wises up.

~~~
InternetUser
When do you think everyone will wise up? Like in what year?

~~~
throwawayjava
s/click/viewers and the basic business model has been going strong for half a
century.

s/clicks/listeners and the basic business model has been going strong for just
a little over a century.

s/clicks/circulation and the basic business model has been going strong for at
least a few centuries now.

So, never. Or, more accurately, in about 20 years when "clicking" becomes an
anachronism and someone will make this comment except it'll be: _"
s/taps/clicks and this has been going on for half a century"_

~~~
dredmorbius
Mass circulation media date to the early 19th century, so approaching 200
years. Benjamin Day's _Sun_ wasn't the first "penny-press" newspaper, but it
transformed the concept, in 1833.

Developments (and cost reductions) in printing and paper-making, as well as
rapidly increasing literacy rates, climbing from 25% or lower around 1700 to
90%+ by 1900 throughout much of Europe and North America, also meant that
prior to 1800 there really _wasn 't_ a mass-circulation media of any stripe,
outside religious mass, and that there very much was one afterwards.

Though yes, your observation that this has been going on for a while is valid.

------
raxxorrax
I would also be depressed if my education nets me excessive debt. Probably
manageable for lawyers, doctors, engineers, etc., but general higher education
seems to be something restricted to people with rich parents.

I don't know the details since I am not based in the US. But from outside it
seems that there are incentives to willfully sabotage the educational system.
And the raw numbers about the accumulated debt look terrifying.

~~~
tracer4201
Imo even if it is manageable debt, that doesn’t make the problem just
disappear. My own student debt is long paid off. It was only $25K - not
exactly chump change but only a fraction of the more egregious examples I’ve
seen.

Honestly, college provided some decent experiences but did it make me a better
human or teach me something significant enough to justify that debt? No. There
were maybe 3 or 4 key classes in my four year program that had anything really
relevant to my career. Most of it was stuff I would forget after a couple
semesters and never apply anywhere.

In hindsight, college is an institutional shackle. It’s a right of passage we
force on kids, and employers require it when it shouldn’t be necessary. My
$25K feel less like an investment an education and more like a bribe I had to
pay before anyone would hire me.

------
systematical
Is it on the rise or are people feeling more comfortable about reporting these
things compared to decades ago?

~~~
insickness
Or it could be that people are more aware of their internal states. In other
words, twenty years ago, I would not be able to tell you that I had anxiety or
depression, even though I did. As I went through cognitive behavioral therapy
and became more aware of my internal states, I can tell immediately if I start
to feel anxious or depressed. Due to cb therapy, I experience far less anxiety
and depression but I am aware of it when I do experience it (which can help
minimize it).

------
redleggedfrog
Does it really matter _what_ the causes of the depression and anxiety are if
there is no easy way to change them (global warming, debt, parody of a
government, news that's hyperbole not information, overwhelming technology,
world competition, and so on)? None of those are going away, so the emphasis
needs to be on taking care of the the young people (or all people) stressed by
these factors.

What to do? Anecdotally, I can certainly say that lessening exposure to these
things really helps. But not everyone has the environment or self control to
do such things.

------
DoctorOetker
depression is just the natural response to oppression

------
tickerticker
Although I am not a college student, something that causes worry for me is the
difficulty of knowing what is going on and what to believe, even though I
consume news from many sources. The battle for readers/viewers' attention has
escalated to manipulative tactics like clickbait or pandering. The slow demise
of old media has created a sense of desperation in their reportage. New media
RARELY seeks a footing of disinterested journalism. This adds a struggle to
the experience of "adulting" for college kids.

Another issue is the change in the number of people living here. 1990 had
250MM. 2018 had 327MM. That 30% increase is bound to add stress and conflict.

Another: the pace of change has been overwhelming in the last 25 years. That
might create self-doubt about one's capacity to keep skills updated.

Another: the decrease in life expectancy of white middle class people due to
overdose and suicide. The plague of suicide is the message of futility and
nihilism for survivors to absorb.

Prosperity cures a multitude of ills. Widespread under-employment brings every
bruise, boil, laceration, and trauma to the forefront. College students see
the employment landscape. They face competition from citizens and non-
citizens, and thus a pie that gets divided among a bigger denominator.

The economic reality is that college is necessary for skilled occupations.
Parents steer their kids into college, even though some of those kids don't
have the self-management skills to succeed in college. If they do have these
skills, they commonly are allowed to take coursework that is bound to result
in a minimum wage job. This mortgages the first 20 working years of their
adult lives with student loan debt service. I would certainly be discouraged
by this prospect.

Lastly, the disconnect in authentic relationships that social media fostered
took away a piece of the fundamental human safety net.

------
Havoc
Seeing this among my peers. A scary amount are on some form of meds

------
lunias
I believe that we've reached an inflection point on the path to a utopian-
esque society and it feels as though we're primed to backslide
catastrophically.

For a variety of reasons innumerable, but generally containing in my mind:

Technical literacy being outpaced by technical dependence. The threat of the
oligopoly - and the lack of action to dismantle it. The inability of humans to
work together as a species and their preference for in-fighting over
collaboration and compromise. A breakdown in natural selection, increased
coddling, and a general weakening of ability and character relative to other
nations. Short-sidedness with regard to most everything from education to the
environment.

Existing in a liminal state where great things appear to be possible, but seem
unlikely to be obtained is torturous.

------
mlang23
Well, since education puts people deeply into debt in the USA, I am actually
not very surprised.

------
sak5sk
Multiple reasons really: \- Grass is always greener \- Access to 24/7 negative
news \- Environmental doom and gloom (we even call it an existential crisis)
\- Baked in addiction building mechanisms (likes, retweets, shares, views,
unlimited scrolling, constant stream of crap to consume) \- Fewer personal
interactions \- Less community activity \- Lack of sleep (probably one of the,
if not the biggest issue) \- Stress from having a constantly busy mind full of
useless thoughts \- Worry about the future \- Worry about environment \- Worry
about lack of jobs \- Worry about money \- Worry about school debt

This is probably just scratching the surface.

------
88840-8855
I agree with the article and most comments here. Although I am not in the US
but Europe, similar trends have evolved here: pressure from getting a good
job, non-satisfaction with the status quo, high pressure from the race against
the peers and much more.

My direct question to this community. What do you think could help these
people/us? What are tactical quick win measures and what are strategic long
term measures that could work? I am interested not only in "getting your shit
together by yourself", but also in what help can be offered to the people that
suffer to help?

------
newsgremlin
The rat race is no longer desirable as the old dream of owning your own home
is becoming more fantasy. Pregnancy rates are down and divorce rates are high.
Housing is simply too big an investment for people barely able to afford a
single home.

Your only options are to move to a city and adjust to make a lucrative and
highly commercial life there - or live in the middle of nowhere with fewer job
prospects while the cost of everything around you goes up.

As others mentioned, we now all have devices in our pockets that tell and show
us the lives we don't have and the lives we desire.

------
abc_lisper
I know this is late, but check this article that appeared couple of days after
this was published

[https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&c...](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjEjYqWxLfkAhWRtlkKHd_kB1oQFjAAegQIAxAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nytimes.com%2F2019%2F09%2F03%2Fopinion%2Fcollege-
graduates.html)

------
rvn1045
How much of this perceived increase is also because people are more open to
communicate they have mental health problems.

People are also more encouraged to seek help and counseling as opposed to
before.

I also think that people today more readily label their feelings with labels
such as anxiety, depression or whatever. As opposed to previous generations
who lacked such a vocabulary.

------
pippy
Here's a 2019 APA study that suggests that technology, and digital media use,
and sleep disturbance may play in mood disorder.

[https://www.apa.org/pubs/journals/releases/abn-
abn0000410.pd...](https://www.apa.org/pubs/journals/releases/abn-
abn0000410.pdf)

~~~
veb
As soon as I learned the discipline for social media, and that's all forms:
Facebook, Twitter, IRC, Slack etc and learned how to control myself from
visiting every three seconds, I got a lot happier.

There's just nothing better for peoples health than to ignore social media, to
ignore technology, to keep their phone far away from them as possible.

While I have other issues, it really wasn't until I cut out all medications,
alcohol and then technology from my life. I use social media sparingly these
days because I've trained myself to avoid it.

I lost a lot of friends when I went through a segment in my life where I was
depressed, moody and so on so forth, but at the end of the day I'm happier now
because the experience taught me what I did wrong, and what some of the
catalysts were, so there's a silver lining in every 'bad' thing that happens
so to speak.

Regarding sleep disturbance, I've just taken to edibles and having zero light
in my room with one of those artificial sunlight alarms to wake me up in the
morning. Seems to help a lot.

New Zealand also seems to have a crisis with suicide. I'm super lucky that I
have a blank cheque from ACC to get any help I need, along with my family.
Most people don't have that, unfortunately and I feel extremely bad for them.
I wish I could help, but really I feel, what can one person do in this
instance than to try and understand what people are going through but that's
difficult as hell because most people hide and mask their symptoms through
other crap like drugs, alcohol, which all simply lead to temporary psychosis
and worsening depression-like symptoms.

At least these days things are better, but I'd like to reconnect with old
friends and say sorry for all the damage I caused, but it's hard to know where
to even start.

------
supergilbert
Depression, anxiety are rising among a large part of the population in Western
society. My personal take on this: we need to reconnect with religion because
we need something transcendant to help us go through life. Modern life is very
alienating if you take a purely material approach to it.

------
alephnan
Facebook was already popular before 2012, 2013 which the article highlighted
as the transition point. Instagram was becoming popular at this time.

------
inquisitor19
There are a lot of factors contributing here, but kids today, probably more
than in Leary's days, need to turn on, tune in, and drop out.

~~~
hi41
I have heard this phrase several times before - "turn on, tune in, and drop
out."

Could you please give more context and explain more. I don't understand this
phrase. Please note that I did not grow up in USA.

Turn on to what? Radio? Tune in to what? A radio music program? drop out from
what? From high school or college?

~~~
madman1444
From Timothy Leary's 1983 autobiography, Flashbacks (via Wikipedia): "Turn on"
meant go within to activate your neural and genetic equipment. Become
sensitive to the many and various levels of consciousness and the specific
triggers engaging them. Drugs were one way to accomplish this end. "Tune in"
meant interact harmoniously with the world around you—externalize,
materialize, express your new internal perspectives. "Drop out" suggested an
active, selective, graceful process of detachment from involuntary or
unconscious commitments. "Drop Out" meant self-reliance, a discovery of one's
singularity, a commitment to mobility, choice, and change. Unhappily, my
explanations of this sequence of personal development are often misinterpreted
to mean "Get stoned and abandon all constructive activity"

~~~
hi41
Thank you! I find this happening with acronyms and truisms that get shortened
to look like captions. Outside the in-group, people don’t understand the
meaning. With times passage, the in-group slowly fades and the usage and
meaning that is generally understood is incorrect like the one you mentioned
about getting stoned and do nothing worthwhile.

------
bitexploder
I think Cal Newport touches on this in his book Digital Minimalism. He links
it pretty convincingly to the rise of people been glued to screens.

------
segmondy
Depression and anxiety is rising among the entire population of the US, from
middle schoolers to senior citizens 1 year away from their grave.

------
Zarath
Duh. I'd also be willing to bet it's correlated with screen time.

------
gingabriska
It's the lack of meaningful connections which is on rise.

When my wife was at university, I was shocked being a pretty woman - how
lonely she was.

She did try to talk with people and even hang out on weekend with a girl group
but it seemed as if during the weekdays nobody had any time for her.

This is the main reason I think.

Men are being treated as disposable just look at the male Vs female sucide
statistics. Present society is very toxic to be a man. There is nowhere to get
support from if you are a "weak man" for the society, a label which is slapped
on you the moment you talk about your issues.

In relationships, there is a new trend that relationship ends when initial
spark ends. If you go to any relationship advice forum, you can see people
dumping their partner because the initial spark ended, it's too easy to find a
new partner for some. Nobody bothers putting much effort into a relationship.

------
gingabriska
I'd mention one thing which I think no one has mentioned so far.

Today we've more freedom than ever, more access to people and more prosperity
than ever.

This creates a dynamic were people cluster according to their outlook. No one
accepts a "downer" in a happy group.

I'd say more happy, more prosperous country, a country which has more freedom
will see higher sucide rates due to loneliness.

I wouldn't be surprised if the examples of this like Scandinavian countries
have higher sucide rate if not highest.

I'd be lot better being a "sad" person with other sad people than being the
only sad person among all other happy people.

~~~
jinglebells
You'd be surprised to find the US has a higher suicide rate than Sweden and
Norway then.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_r...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate)

------
patientplatypus
_“It suggests that something is seriously wrong in the lives of young people
and that whatever went wrong seemed to happen around 2012, or 2013,” said
study coauthor Jean Twenge. She noted that this was around the time
smartphones became common and social media moved from being optional to
mandatory among youngsters._

I just...OMG who the hell are these people. Maybe the economy just stopped
getting better for most people after 2008? I mean __duh __. After a few years
when finally becomes obvious that the new normal is gig economy jobs and
living under debt until you die, say around 2012-2013, then people 's
happiness starts to nose dive. That's a much more explanatory answer than "the
cell phones did it".

It's like an old person - I thought she was a baby boomer, but she's only 48 -
that has a phd (and everything!) is desperately trying to figure out what's
going wrong, and they have all the data.

They. Just. Can't. Quite. Get There.

This is the type of person that's running society, maybe that's the problem.
Face palm.

------
amriksohata
The link between modern day food....

------
flaque
Since no one's mentioned it yet: both depression and anxiety are extremely
treatable.

Regardless of whatever HN folks think is the cause, therapists and
psychiatrists are an actual solution; you should see one.

~~~
tomhoward
This is largely false.

Some mainstream treatment approaches can be somewhat effective for some
people. Maybe they can be completely effective for some people. I'm not going
to argue the toss on that.

But there's a significant cohort of people for whom these conditions do not
respond well to conventional treatment, at least to the extent of full
recovery.

I'm one of those people.

We're talking about at least 19 years of dealing with anxiety, and plenty of
depression along the way. Some medications have been moderately effective at
abating some of the symptoms, but not at bringing about anything approximating
complete recovery and a "normal" life.

What has been effective for me is a long-term program involving a combination
of subconscious emotional healing techniques, as well as various physiological
healing methods, including:

\- detoxification of heavy metals (including lead, mercury, aluminium),

\- increasing/balancing levels of critical nutrients (particularly minerals -
calcium, magnesium, sodium, potassium, iron and zinc, as well as iodine, which
is critically low in many people with complex health problems, due to its
crucial role in thyroid function, and which is insufficient in may people's
diets, particularly in western countries),

\- addressing chronic infections (e.g., Epstein Barr, Cytomegalovirus, fungal,
bacterial and parasitic infections),

\- adopting an anti-inflammatory diet, and

\- regularly engaging in the right kinds of exercise (stretching and core
strength exercises like yoga/pilates), and moderate (definitely not strenuous)
cardio exercise like brisk walking.

After about 8 years of that I'm almost fully recovered, I think and
desperately hope.

But you won't get recommendations for any of these approaches from a
conventional psychologist or psychiatrist, and if you were to ask one about
them you'd get laughed out of the clinic.

Thus, many people continue to suffer, even after years of treatment from
mainstream practitioners.


Ask HN: Review my first MVP - fhub

Site: finishstart.com
Premise: Write funny stories with random strangers... one sentence at a time.
My Design Goals:
1. Be a true MVP - test the idea without wasting any time
2. Go from idea conception to deployment in 1 day (I nearly achieved that)
3. Try to develop something with some viral marketing potential
4. All content to be user generated
5. Moderation sessions should be fun
6. Try out heroku.com to see if it would be a good fit for another product
7. Do something silly and fun (I come from the enterprise software world)
You can follow my thinking through the process at http://twitter.com/finishstart
All feedback more than welcome.  Especially in the areas of:
1. Conversion - I consider a conversion to be someone who adds some
well thought out content and who submits their email address to get a
copy of the story sent to them on completion
2. Viral Marketing approaches
Cheers
======
damoncali
A few thoughts:

1\. You need a reason to keep people coming back - some sort of hook to keep
people interested. Off the top of my head:

-private stories (restricted to a group)

-solo stories (one sentence a day for one user)

-stories limited to people with a certain birthday

-graduation class stories

-drama/english classes

-let people upvote/downvote/move sentences

-publish a blog of anything that turns out good

-allow combination of random sentences from different stories into new stories

2\. The "Anything Goes" section could easily turn into porn/adult content.
That can make advertising revenue difficult and make it unusable by schools,
etc.

3\. If you get a lot of traffic, this blows up and becomes hard to manage. A
story could grow very rapidly if you're not careful. Although on the edge of
"premature optimization" I would keep an eye ont his as you work.

Fun site. It will be interesting to see if you can take it from "interesting
curiosity" to "something I check when I'm bored".

~~~
fhub
Great feedback! Thanks.

------
zaidf
Dude I had the very idea =) Except mine was one word at a time. It came from
an exercise we did in improv101.

I think you can make the UI a lot tighter. Imagine just a WHITE screen with
THE story...constantly refreshing. Along with an inputbox at the top to add
your contribute to it. Perhaps integrate with twitter.

~~~
fhub
The UI does need some work but I probably won't invest too much effort until I
work out if the idea is viable.

One story is a bit hard for lots of people to concurrently work on
unfortunately. Part of my strategy is to have short stories so that I can
email it to the contributors when it is completed (hopefully within a day or
two). Then I'm hoping they will forward the funny story to their friends (with
a link of course).

------
resdirector
Good work, esp idea-to-deployment in about a day. I found this to be pretty
addictive. i.e. I started filling out stories rather than hammering HN, Google
News when I've got time to kill.

Suggestion: email users once per week/fortnight with a partial story +
embedded form so they can play via email, especially if they haven't played
for a while. Increase/decrease frequency of email sending depending on how
they respond to playing via email.

~~~
fhub
Thanks for your feedback. I'll have a ponder about your email idea. Ta.

I think I'm up against a lot of tough competition in the time killing market
on the web :)

------
revorad
I had the exact same idea a long time ago. I just kept toying with it in my
mind. It's so awesome to see someone actually make it.

You've made a very good first version. Just get lots of people to use it to
write at least one line and then publish and popularise the finished stories
on social networks. You will get to see if the stories are actually any good
and also might get ideas on improving the app itself.

~~~
fhub
Thanks. The idea is fun, but getting people back is tough. Let alone getting
them to share the link with their friends. I had fun building it and iterating
it over the last few days.

I'm going to give it a couple more days and if I don't see much traction I'll
probably let it pass away quietly.

~~~
revorad
I wonder if this is better suited as a Facebook or twitter "game", at least
for a start. For example, some friends dragged me into playing the name game
on facebook and although I hardly check Facebook, that thing made me go back
quite a lot. Once you get a good base of users you could get them to an
independent site which is more usable and focussed.

------
nailer
What does mvp mean in this context?

~~~
shrikant
I had the same question, and
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_viable_product> was quite helpful in
this regard :)

------
fhub
Clickable: <http://finishstart.com>


Pokemon Yellow Total Control Hack - mzs
http://aurellem.org/vba-clojure/html/total-control.html
Go to 666s into the video to see the bootstraps running.
======
mzs
Seek 666s into the
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5T81yHkHtI](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5T81yHkHtI)
video to see the bootstraps begin running.


What's really wrong with WikiLeaks -T. Dalrymple (2010) - bad_ramen_soup
https://www.city-journal.org/html/what’s-really-wrong-wikileaks-10794.html
======
bad_ramen_soup
"The actual effect of WikiLeaks is likely to be profound and precisely the
opposite of what it supposedly sets out to achieve. Far from making for a more
open world, it could make for a much more closed one. Secrecy, or rather the
possibility of secrecy, is not the enemy but the precondition of frankness.
WikiLeaks will sow distrust and fear, indeed paranoia; people will be
increasingly unwilling to express themselves openly in case what they say is
taken down by their interlocutor and used in evidence against them, not
necessarily by the interlocutor himself. This could happen not in the official
sphere alone, but also in the private sphere, which it works to destroy. An
Iron Curtain could descend, not just on Eastern Europe, but over the whole
world. A reign of assumed virtue would be imposed, in which people would say
only what they do not think and think only what they do not say."


Flickr Blog: Lessons Learned while Building an iPhone Site - timtrueman
http://code.flickr.com/blog/2008/10/27/lessons-learned-while-building-an-iphone-site/

======
Hexstream
"The only way to get the size of your JavaScript down is to selectively pull
code out of libraries, and include only what you use."

Would it be possible to make some kind of library management system that
automatically takes care of including only those parts of the libraries you
use? (even if each library needed to supply its own "annotations" to guide the
process)


The Impact of Meditating Every Day - PascalPrecht
https://pascalprecht.github.io/posts/meditating-every-day
======
mr_overalls
This type of meditation - a secularized form of Vipassana in which one
passively observers mental events - is very popular in the West.

But it's not the only one, and shouldn't be called merely "meditation" without
regard to the vast body of practices that exist.

Another form of meditation that's traditionally talked about in Buddhism is
shamatha, which translates to something like "concentration" or "tranquility."
In this type of practice, the meditator works with a meditation object,
commonly the breath, but possibly a sound, mental image, etc. The meditator
learns to stabilize the mind and remain fully aware of the object, and in the
process learns to debug the mechanisms that direct (and destabilize) conscious
attention.

A recently published book called _The_Mind_Illustrated_ by John Yates is fa
fantastic resource for this kind of practice.

If you're interested in scientific attempts to categorize and study
meditation, the Center for Healthy Minds at UW-Madison does some fantastic
neuroscience & psychology research.

[https://centerhealthyminds.org/assets/files-
publications/Dah...](https://centerhealthyminds.org/assets/files-
publications/DahlReconstructingTICS.pdf)

In the scientific terminology that is emerging these days, Attentional,
Constructive, and Deconstructive types of meditation are mapped onto various
types of traditional practices (there's a handy chart in the paper).

~~~
servercobra
Huh, I went to UW and never heard about the Center for Healthy Minds. This is
really interesting, thanks!

Where does transcendental meditation fall?

~~~
mr_overalls
I think TM's basic mantra practice would qualify as an Attentional practice. I
don't now much about more advanced practices in that school, so I'm not sure.

------
cube2222
I had always had some kind of anxiety or ocd for as long as I can remember.
I'd searched for various ways to deal with it but only discovering meditation
really worked for me.

After meditating for 6 months every day (starting with 5 minutes daily, ending
with 20-30) I've completely got rid of it. A nice side effect was that I got
to be a happier person overall (though that wasn't ever a problem for me), and
learned to deal with any kind of stress whatsoever.

I'll happily recommend the, oh so often mentioned on hn, book "the mind
illuminated" it really is great to start with: [https://www.amazon.com/Mind-
Illuminated-Meditation-Integrati...](https://www.amazon.com/Mind-Illuminated-
Meditation-Integrating-Mindfulness-ebook/dp/B01INMZKAQ)

Recently I haven't been meditating as much as I'd like to unfortunately (I'm
trying to get back to it), but the effects are lasting nevertheless. And I
still know how to calm myself in a matter of minutes or get more distanced to
the situation.

~~~
aNoob7000
Would you recommend an app like Calm or Headspace to get started with
meditation?

~~~
c1sc0
To get started. Absolutely. Headspace has been instrumental in dealing with a
very hard time in my life. For a secular, scientific look at mindfulness
meditation read the book “Why Buddhism is true.”

~~~
adolph
Here is a podcast with the author:

[https://samharris.org/podcasts/is-buddhism-
true/](https://samharris.org/podcasts/is-buddhism-true/)

~~~
hombre_fatal
Of course, Sam Harris himself has a meditation app (Waking Up). I think might
be the best option for the HN crowd.

~~~
Fnoord
Here [1] is the Exodus Privacy report for this app. To be fair, I did like the
FAQ on the website.

[1] [https://reports.exodus-
privacy.eu.org/en/reports/38025/](https://reports.exodus-
privacy.eu.org/en/reports/38025/)

~~~
hombre_fatal
Fwiw, Waking Up gets better marks by those metrics than the other popular
meditation apps mentioned in these comments: Headspace and Calm.

(Lower is better)

\- Waking Up (3+11=14)

\- Headspace (11+16=27)

\- Calm (9+15=24)

------
spodek
> _I try to meditate every morning for about 15 minutes and been doing that
> for quite some time now._

I find that doing any Self-Imposed Daily Challenging Healthy Activity will
improve your life tremendously, meditation being just one type of SIDCHA.

While the benefits differ slightly, the magnitude of benefit from other
SIDCHAs -- like exercising, drawing a picture, writing a blog post, writing
three business ideas, cooking a meal from scratch, etc every day -- can be
just as great. You develop discipline, ability to overcome internal
resistance, self-awareness, etc.

I'm a big fan and practitioner of SIDCHAs and wrote them up:
[http://joshuaspodek.com/sidchas-the-series](http://joshuaspodek.com/sidchas-
the-series).

~~~
onefuncman
I love the approach of digging into the underlying pattern rather than
fixating on the details of the routine.

I used to struggle with Agile and daily standups at $JOB until I started
keeping a private journal daily. Now I have several years of daily notes
across several jobs that I can refer back to and use for reflection, avoiding
common pitfalls, revisiting particularly difficult challenges with a different
perspective. The most valuable entries I have beyond technical details or
company idiosyncrasies are about arguments I've gotten into or interpersonal
dynamics I've noticed.

The biggest benefit I've noticed is that I feel much more resilient to both
stress and change, and I don't sink near as much time and effort into
distractions or rabbit holes. Random ideas get written down and set aside for
monthly review and I can get back to work.

~~~
theonemind
It sounds like you do something more comprehensive, but I thought I'd share my
experience with journaling at work.

I pretty much try to write (with pen and paper) for 10 minutes a day to sort
my thoughts out and figure out what do focus on, perhaps think about what has
affected my performance lately (good and bad, to do more of the good and get
less of the bad). Occasionally, I'll stop doing it for periods of time, until
I notice that my recent work has started to seem less effective.

The 10 minutes of writing increases the chance that I'll feel like I've
accomplished something by the end of the day by like 200%. So you'd think I'd
never skip it, but of course, when actually _doing_ it, it feels like wasting
10 minutes at any given time, so sometimes, I just don't.

------
spectaclepiece
I began meditating every day after I wake up four years ago and it has been
the most beneficial change I ever introduced into my life, quitting cannabis
securing a stable second place.

I began with five min and worked my way up to 15. Now I have an iOS shortcut
“hey Siri, start meditation” which sets a timer randomly between 15 and 20 min
to counteract the body clock expectation of a fixed duration.

~~~
cols
You mentioned quitting cannabis. If you don't mind elaborating, I'm curious
what benefits you have experienced and why you ended up quitting. Thanks!

~~~
thomk
Ex cannabis user here, so I thought I'd give you my empirical perspective &
and opinion.

I will tell you what I would tell my own child:

Cannabis, like any recreational drug, steals the most precious resource we
have: our time. I've been on benders in my life that I simply can not remember
what I did during that period, sure, but that's not what I'm talking about.

What I am talking about is the time any person needs to become a well
adjusted, functioning adult. When you are taking a recreational drug, you are
not dealing with life, you are on a 'get away'.

Life is the best teacher and recreational drugs are how you forfeit that
precious, amazing, education.

You don't have to go far to see this in action. Think of someone who is a
habitual drug user and ask yourself 'are they emotionally mature?'. They
aren't. They are taking an escape. Recreational drugs are antithetical to
emotional growth.

This type of behavior is ESPECIALLY harmful if you are taking recreational
drugs early in life. It simply puts you behind.

I wasted 20 years of my life 'partying' even on a casual basis. Time slips
away and being high puts time on a damn bullet train.

I heard recently that the fastest way for an addict to relapse is a windfall
of money. Money doesn't help them get out of their situation because money is
hard to manage, particularly if you are emotionally immature.

tl/dr: Recreational drugs make you immature which will prevent you from going
very far in life.

~~~
stronglikedan
> Recreational drugs make you immature which will prevent you from going very
> far in life.

Put a "may" before "make" and a replace "will" with "may", and you have a
truthful statement. However, as it stands, it's simply false. Some of us "well
adjusted, functioning adults" just use drugs safely and responsibly, because
it can make life just a bit more interesting.

~~~
thomk
Ahh, so if you take away the recreational drug, you remove the part of you
that has the ability to find life more interesting? Turns out it was the drug
the whole time.

------
garyrob
I just want to share that I'm finding the practice of Zen meditation in the
context of its overall philosophy to be profoundly helpful. I've read a
substantial number of books on the subject. Books are only useful as pointers
for how to practice; knowledge alone is useless in Zen. You have to practice,
period. But the best books _are_ useful as pointers for how to practice. And
if anyone here is interested in exploring Zen, the single book that I feel
does the best job of giving you what you need to really practice is "Opening
the Hand of Thought: Foundations of Zen Buddhist Practice" by Kosho Uchiyama
Roshi[1]. "Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind" [2] is also a wonderful book, and it's
where I started. Its poetic manner of expression made me feel there was
something there that I needed to explore. But the Uchiyama book just takes the
cake for being very clear and down-to-earth, without watering down either the
practice or the philosophy. After that it's helpful to read commentaries on
writings by Dogen. And, ideally, sitting regularly with other folks in a Zen
center is extremely helpful. Avoid overly simplistic beginner's Zen books. I
can't recommend them because they seem to distort the essence in an attempt to
make it seem as approachable as possible.

[1] [https://www.amazon.com/Opening-Hand-Thought-Foundations-
Budd...](https://www.amazon.com/Opening-Hand-Thought-Foundations-
Buddhist/dp/0861713575/ref=sr_1_1)

[2] [https://www.amazon.com/Zen-Mind-Beginners-Informal-
Meditatio...](https://www.amazon.com/Zen-Mind-Beginners-Informal-
Meditation/dp/1590308492/ref=sr_1_3)

------
mlangenberg
Personally, I find meditating on a daily basis for longer periods (months),
the most difficult.

Whenever I go through a "down" phase in life, I start meditating and observe
it being really beneficial, but the routine quickly starts to bore me.

When I feel good and energized, I jump out of bed, enjoy a day at work and
fill the evening with stuff I enjoy.

I totally forget to meditate and (digital) reminders are easily dismissed.

(It doesn't help that I'm an evening person, so most of the time I tried to do
as less as possible in the morning in order to arrive at a "normal" time at
work)

How do other people cope with this?

~~~
emanuensis
Same for me. Though i am very "advanced" having been a yogi for over 50 years.
What really helped me was meditating hourly, on chimes. i have found the
practice mentioned a few times, eg Thich Nat Han recommends. Content wise,
length wise etc etc there are many variations. Pick one. Maybe graduate to
another. Or out, or on infinite repeat. Taking control of yourself, at all
times, even when not "meditating" is to be awake.

------
jason_slack
I have the habit now of meditation for 1 hour each morning and then for 20-30
minutes before laying my head to pillow. It's really helpful to me to get
myself in a space to start a productive day and end it with a good relaxing
sleep. I usually get 4.5 to 5.5 hours each night. Up at 4:30am without an
alarm and to bed by 11-midnight usually.

I attended a 10 day silent meditation retreat last year and it really had an
impact of my technique and focus along with realizing my life is what I indeed
make of it.

If anyone wants to start meditating, start slow. maybe just 10 minutes of
trying to do basic breathing exercises.

~~~
agent008t
4.5 to 5.5 hours sounds ridiculously low. I thought humans need at least 8
hours of sleep to function well? Have you tried sleeping for longer and if you
did, what difference did it make to your wellbeing?

~~~
theboulevardier
Many people find that meditation reduces their need to sleep. A few months ago
when I was meditating for around 1.5 hours per day (a mixture of walking and
formal sitting meditation) I felt well rested on 5.5 to 6.5 hours of sleep,
when my normal needs are 7.5 - 8 hours

~~~
jammygit
Sometimes when I have insomnia I sort of daydream instead of sleeping. When I
get up, I am more rested than the 3-4 hours or actual sleep would suggest. I
had wondered if the daydreaming was similar enough to sleep to be a poor
substitute

~~~
agent008t
I find the opposite. On the nights where I dream a lot, I do not wake up well
rested. The best rest I get is when you fall asleep, next moment open your
eyes, and it's morning. But I haven't had much of that kind of sleep since I
was a kid.

------
Taylor_OD
10 minutes of guided meditation per day is the only non-medical option that
helps my ADHD other than removing caffeine and getting more sleep.

It's insane how little I need to feel much more in control of my thoughts.

~~~
poslathian
I dropped my scrip when I realized a long morning sit has about the same
effect but without the side effects of stimulants - which were considerable.
Not to get down on stimulants, those can be amazing drugs.

------
nabla9
I have been meditating 20 years now (zazen). I do 2-4 hours a day. Several 7
day retreats per year.

My starting motivation was philosophical and academic interest. I was curious
how it affects the mind. Then I did it because it seemed so hard to do, mind
seemed like a buggy device I had no control over. I also had self improvement
goals at some point. And feeling balanced is a good feeling.

But there is no way I can justify the amount of time I spend meditating with
any of those. Meditation teachers say that first you start to work with
meditation, then it starts to work with you. The whole view of the world
changes.

I'm completely secular humanist but meditation has turned into spiritual
practice. If I worship something, it's this moment. Asking why I meditate is
like asking why people go surfing. Staying in the moment and balancing on the
wave between the past and the future is not a activity you do for gaining any
other goals. Being alive and experiencing the raw existence is something you
sacrifice other things in your life.

~~~
vcoelho
> I do 2-4 hours a day.

Just reading this gave me anxiety.

~~~
snikeris
What is this anxiety? Does it come from the fear of non-existence? I will be
dead some day, and I surely don't want to spend my limited existence staring
into the void. Gotta keep moving!

~~~
sixstringtheory
On the right time scales, is there even any difference between "staring into
the void" or "moving"?

What difference will it make anyways after you're dead?

------
amriksohata
Hindu sages have advocated meditating for thousands of years, they do this in
a specific time called Brahmamuhurtha in the morning when its most potent. Its
the same sages that promote Yoga and Ayurveda

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmamuhurtha](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmamuhurtha)

It won't be long before the West I hope catches onto the next phase which is
learning about Mudras - kind of an accupressure to target certain nerves.

~~~
pbowyer
> It won't be long before the West I hope catches onto the next phase which is
> learning about Mudras - kind of an accupressure to target certain nerves.

Mudras are awesome! I discovered them accidentally because I'd get spots on my
fingers that felt "heavy" and would make me jerk and shiver when touched.

Pressing them can clear the tension, but it's always a temporary relief. If I
can shiver then the energy release is much better.

I've tried various mudras but not known what to expect from them, or how best
to use them. And never seen an explanation (or anyone else) experiencing what
I do.

~~~
L_Rahman
Western psychotherapy has developed a specific ritual for activating this kind
of shivering focused on releasing traumatic energy. It's called a TRE (Trauma
Release Exercise) and particularly when done in the presence of someone who
can help guide through energetic blocks, I've found it to be a transformative
experience.

[https://traumaprevention.com/](https://traumaprevention.com/)

------
ypcx
Mindfulness meditation is absolutely great, a miracle, a root. I don't
meditate regularly but every time that I do it again (and if properly), the
thought that opens is something like "where have you been so long / why have
you denied this to yourself for so long" type of question.

And yet, I feel like doing that every day is not fully compatible with the
type of consciousness which is optimal to get me from day to day in my life as
a software engineer.

Meditation sharpens your senses -- you may then find yourself distracted by
sounds of road traffic that you previously didn't care about, you may discover
that the air in your area smells bad to you from time to time, you may realize
how locked most people are in their own patterns (that includes you). You may
find yourself thinking about going to a Buddhist monastery somewhere and
trying this for a longer time. I'm just saying it's really _that_ good.

Whereas, if I do what I love, and I let my consciousness to its own momentum,
I feel like it's auto-tackling the daily roughness of life more on its own and
not bothering me with otherwise unimportant things that much. In essence, you
were born into this physical reality to be a thought / to have thoughts, not
to be thoughtless / formless.

That said, mindfulness meditation as a consciousness-momentum modification
tool, applied (even daily) within the proper bounds, can a venerable weapon
for life.

I guess I just find it to be an extra overhead to manage if everything else in
my life goes really well even without it.

p.s. If you use meditation as a daily crutch(?)/bandage(?) to something that
_really_ bothers you, there are much more effective weapons to try (one-off,
by no means regular use): Ayahuasca, Shrooms, Family Constellations -- after
healing with these, the meditation itself can provide you with much more, as a
cherry on the top.

~~~
Obi_Juan_Kenobi
There's more to meditation than just mindfulness. Look into samatha practice.

------
jasonmcaffee
I've been meditating for the last 2 years, and I've found many benefits.
Stress reduction, better control of feelings, better understanding of self,
and joy are just a few.

It's really simple to start out:

1) Devote 10 minutes of each day to meditation time. Early morning is best, as
your mind is fresh and not as distracted.

2) Find a quiet/non-distracting place to sit in a comfortable position. Legs
crossed on the floor or in a chair are fine. You want to keep your back
straight to help keep from falling asleep.

3) Focus on the sensation of your breath, wherever it is strongest. Typically
this is the tip of the nose, or in the nostril, but chest can work as well.
Your mind will become distracted with work, worries, thoughts of food, etc.
When this happens, congratulate yourself on noticing that it happened, and
bring your attention back to your breath.

That's it! It blows my mind how developing concentration can have such a
profound impact on your life.

Here are some good resources for those interested:

[http://dharmatreasure.org/wp-content/uploads/beginning-
medit...](http://dharmatreasure.org/wp-content/uploads/beginning-meditation-
handout.pdf)

[https://www.amazon.com/Mind-Illuminated-Meditation-
Integrati...](https://www.amazon.com/Mind-Illuminated-Meditation-Integrating-
Mindfulness/dp/1501156985/ref=sr_1_3?crid=3AWJMAYQPSKPY&keywords=the+mind+illuminated&qid=1565973855&s=gateway&sprefix=the+mind+illu%2Caps%2C239&sr=8-3)

[https://www.reddit.com/r/TheMindIlluminated/wiki/index#wiki_...](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheMindIlluminated/wiki/index#wiki_getting_started)

------
rramadass
The Tibetan Texts on "Mind Training" (called _Lojong_ ) maybe helpful for
people looking for instructional techniques;

* Mind Training: The Great Collection - [https://www.amazon.com/Mind-Training-Collection-Library-Clas...](https://www.amazon.com/Mind-Training-Collection-Library-Classics/dp/0861714407/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=mind+training&qid=1566021731&s=books&sr=1-1)

* Essential Mind Training (subset from the above book) - [https://www.amazon.com/Essential-Mind-Training-Tibetan-Class...](https://www.amazon.com/Essential-Mind-Training-Tibetan-Classics/dp/0861712633/ref=sr_1_16?keywords=mind+training&qid=1566021789&s=books&sr=1-16)

------
gnikif
In my experience, apps (like Headspace) mostly distract you from witnessing.
Any type of guided mediation has an entertaining aspect to it - you have to
follow the guidelines instead of pure witnessing.

~~~
me_me_me
Would you mind elaborating a bit more on that?

I've been meaning to get into the meditating for a quite a while now. But
never seem to find time/motivation to research how to start.

~~~
seren
I started meditating using some written guide/books and Headspace.

An app is helpful to guide you at the beginning, but past a certain point
having someone talking during most of the session seems a bit detrimental to
your actual focus or awareness. I even wonder if there isn't some sort of
Pavlovian response, whenever you listen to Andy Puddicombe voice, you want to
meditate.

The core of the issue is that there is a conflict of interests between an app
that want to keep you subscribed forever, and the idea of teaching something
universal. In any app, I have never heard the teacher saying that you don't
need the app to actually meditate (which is obviously true). By making you
dependent of an app, you are actually less free than before.

Understand that these meditation apps (Headspace/Calm) are mostly VC funded ,
and they don't only want to teach you something, their investors also want
some hockey stick curves. There is nothing wrong with that but it also
explains how some features are designed.

That being said I think it was helpful to use them, they provide some value so
I would rather recommend them, just not forever.

~~~
awinder

      I even wonder if there isn't some sort of Pavlovian response,
      whenever you listen to Andy Puddicombe voice, you want to
      meditate

YES. I've wondered the same, it almost seems like a waste if that's not what
they're going for because it's right there.

      Understand that these meditation apps (Headspace/Calm) are
      mostly VC funded , and they don't only want to teach you
      something, their investors also want some hockey stick
      curves. There is nothing wrong with that but it also explains
      how some features are designed.

I don't know if that's completely fair. Both of these seem to really be trying
to go after a model where businesses buy group subscriptions as an employee
wellness perk. I think there's also untapped potential in trying to team with
large healthcare providers because mental health is treated in the US in one
of the most cost-ineffective ways, and it isn't even especially an effective
way from a patient outcome standpoint either.

Anyways -- that's just all to say that achieving hockey stick growth in a B2B
model should create better alignment and it shouldn't mean that they don't
want to teach you something, I'm sure lots of people with good hearts are
working there & want to do good for people/users.

~~~
yodon
Please don't use code formatting for quotes. It makes your text unreadable on
mobile.

------
yjhoney
I had been reading articles (like this one) that raves about the benefits of
meditation and so I decided to try it for 30 days every day.

I did not see any improvements in any areas. Could I be doing something wrong?
I really don't get meditation and I feel like I'm the only person who feels
this way.

All the benefits that this article specifically talks about is my default
state. I'm never stressed and I don't feel anxiety unless I drink alot.

Is it be possible that meditation simply have no effect for some people?

~~~
nefitty
Try asking someone close to you if they notice a difference. I went through a
long stint of daily meditation a few years ago but I eventually lost the
habit. A while afterwards my wife randomly said, "I wish you still meditated.
You were nicer when you did." I was taken aback.

------
tryitnow
Whenever I hear about a particular technique that is supposedly backed by
evidence I wonder what specific protocol was used in the studies supporting
it. I also wonder how many studies have been conducted and for how many years.

For those of you who want an actual evidence-based practice check out
Mindfulness-Based Stress Reduction (MBSR). It's the most frequently studied
protocol and it's been studied for decades. When you read stories about
studies showing how meditation does XYZ and ABC, it's almost always MBSR that
the researchers are using.

"Meditation" is a huge category, there's a lot of stuff in there. Some of it
probably works, a lot of it doesn't (other than the placebo effect).

What you think of as "meditation" may not be what actually has been researched
in a given study.

Of course, all of the above is only applicable to those of you who want to
pursue evidence-based techniques. If you're just satisfied with trying stuff
you read about on random blogs and HN posts then go ahead and try anything:
prayer, astrology, witchcraft, etc - you'll probably realize a little positive
benefit as long as you genuinely believe it will work.

~~~
flr03
Why would you need studies ? It's not like trying to introduce a new
medication on the market. If I like knitting 30 mins a day and I feel relaxed
after that I'm not going to wait for a study to tell me it's actually making
me feel better or not.

~~~
DanBC
Because it may be harmful.

See for example the idea of giving people involved in road traffic accidents a
bit of psychological therapy afterwards.

That seems like it'd help, and most people would say that it can't hurt, but
when you look at the people 3 years later we see the group randomised to
talking therapy have worse outcomes than the group randomised to no talking
therapy.

(I'll try to find a reference).

Here's the reference:
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/10974967/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/10974967/)

~~~
andreilys
Which may only generalize to a specific group of people, in a specific
country, at a specific period of time. All subject to change when we tweak a
couple of variables.

~~~
jblwps
That point, while valid, is only against this study; it doesn't speak to
studies in general.

~~~
andreilys
If we're speaking in the context of social sciences I would say it applies to
nearly all of them.

~~~
jblwps
Possibly. While I'm definitely sympathetic to the idea that social science (at
least as it's actually practiced) is relatively soft, I don't know how we'd go
about discounting it all. Seems to me like we'd be throwing the baby out with
the bathwater.

At the very least, I don't know what we could do differently, short of
improving the practice of social science in various ways. The questions it
would purport to investigate (i.e. social questions) are of course critical
questions, but I'm not sure how we'd better answer them. More specifically,
I'm not sure how we'd better answer them now. Sure, maybe if we had some Grand
Unified Theory or even sufficiently sophisticated computer models. But we
don't have those. (In the case where we did have them, it seems almost
tautological that social science as such would have participated in their
creation--but I digress.) What we've got now are social questions worth
asking, and an admittedly imperfect practice of answering those questions.
What do we do now?

~~~
andreilys
We realize that scientific studies that are in the social sciences may only
generalize to a specific group of people, in a specific country, at a specific
period of time. All subject to change when we tweak a couple of variables.

------
slothtrop
This reminds me of an article shared here on the value of doing nothing.

How does walking around with a clear head compared to meditation practically
speaking?

~~~
Obi_Juan_Kenobi
I'd liken it to the difference between exercise and training. Exercise is
certainly good for you, but if you want to achieve high performance, you need
structure and discipline.

Meditation isn't clearing your head, it's changing it. It's developing the
faculties of attention and awareness in a deliberate way. Ultimately, these
are the tools you use to develop insight.

------
le3dh4x0r
I can recommend meditation for people with social anxiety. When I meditate on
a regular basis, the way I interact changes completely. It's more intuitive
and I say and do things I wouldn't do otherwise, yet people are completely
fine with it and like me more. Like I am really authentic

------
musicale
> Meditation can open up surprisingly many doors when it comes to being more
> aware, mindful, focused and just at piece with yourself

"At piece with yourself" reminds me of Iron Maiden's album Piece of Mind.
Which is also good for mindfulness and focus.

------
riskneutral
In my humble opinion, meditation is the only way. There is no substitute for
meditation. There is a nice app for free called Plumb Village. It’s by Thich
Nhat Hanh, who I think gave a talk at Google once.

------
dnprock
Meditation sometimes reveals itself through meditation. It's kinda like
recursion in programming. I come from Vietnam. Meditation in Vietnamese is
translated literally to "sitting zen" (ngồi thiền). Sitting seems like the
optimal balance point for meditation. Standing/walking has more distraction.
Lying down makes you prone to sleeping. Now, I haven't figured out which
sitting position is more optimal. Perhaps, the lotus position is popular for a
reason.

------
thewhitetulip
I can testify to the benefits of meditation

When I don't meditate, I feel restless, I doubt myself more and always feel
empty.

After meditating, I feel at peace.

And I only meditate once every 15days.

Meditation also helped me reverse acid reflux.

------
40acres
There's a small urban park 5 minutes away from my apartment, I live in Oregon
so the greenery is very lush and evergreen. It's the perfect spot for a quick
10 minute headspace session.

The mind is an incredible thing, it's difficult to know if tech has reduced my
mind's ability to remain still -- but it's quite something to sit and realize
that my mind goes it's own way and I struggle to keep up, like a dog walking
it's master.

------
gpsx
I'm sold on meditating being beneficial. This article is a reminder that I
need to start doing it regularly again. How difficult it is for me is probably
a reflection of how much I need it.

I wonder about some of the _negative_ effects of meditation. Actually, I don't
even mean negative, but just effects period. For example, does it make you
less aggressive? In many ways this is a good thing but there are also benefits
to being aggressive.

------
albanberg
In the Viniyoga tradition of Krishnamacharya and Desikachar, yoga
poses/exercises (asana) are used to prepare the body for meditation. The
meditation is a process of exercises while focusing on an object. The object
could be gross, such as a mountain, or subtle such as a concept. The teacher
chooses the object for the student.

------
kishoresurana
I strongly recommend Shambavi mahamudra Kriya taught by Sadhguru
[https://www.innerengineering.com/](https://www.innerengineering.com/) I’ve
been practicing their 18 minute meditation for almost a year and it has been
quite amazing.

------
winkelwagen
I've been meditating for about 3 months now. Mostly focussing on building the
habit part of it.

I could definitely recommend 10% happier book, It's a fun read, and a kind
introduction to meditation. I had an easier time connecting with that author
then all the other writers that have all have been meditating for 20+ years
with countless 10/30 day retreats.

This week I finished Waking up from sam harris. Have been listening to his
podcast for ages. If you are interested in meditation, from a non-religion
perspective I would definitely recommend it. I'm still having a tough time
understanding what all this no-self and no-ego is about. That will just take
some time I guess.

For me personally I've been mixing meditation and stoisism a bit to find some
peace and acceptance for my very critical self image. But it's hard to find
good stoic teaching, most of it just seems written by sleazy marketeers.

Last thing I would recommend for anyone interested in meditation, starting
with tools like headspace a good way to get into the habit. But to be honest,
I'm having a hard time still getting value out of their teachings. I went from

headspace > just settings a timer with the Oak app for 20-30 min > back to
headspace.

I feel if made less progress then the simple timer. of course I'm not 100%
sure if it the headspace app, or me just simply plateauing but my I think I'm
going to go back to a simple timer. The headspace app is just so damn noisy.

~~~
scns
You need to know how to progress. The book The Mind Illuminated which has
allready recommended here helps with this. One commenter in another thread on
hn allready practised for years, that book got him further.

------
EamonnMR
I've tried in the past, but I wonder: how do you know if you've successfully
meditated or not?

~~~
jrochkind1
So in the kind of meditating he's talking about, you sit there focusing on
your breath. When you notice your thoughts doing something else, you non-
judgementally bring them back to your breath.

That's it. If you're doing it, you're succesfully meditating. It doesn't
matter how often your thoughts go somewhere else, or for how long before you
notice. No matter, if when you notice you focus on the breath, you're doing it
successfully. Really, that's the whole thing.

If you're just starting out, you might find some introduction guidance
helpful, either from an online video or app (there are many, OP mentions a
couple), or from someone in person (If there's a Shambala temple in your area,
they probably have intro to meditation sessions; there are other options).

~~~
jrochkind1
(It can be "hard" to do because it can be an uncomfortable or "boring" thing
to do, that you don't really want to do. But if you just do it anyway, it's
"easy", it doesn't take any skill, anybody can do it, you just have to do it.
It is sort of a kind of exersize for your mind, like going to the gym for your
mind. You are practicing: a) noticing what your mind is doing, self-reflection
in the moment; and b) directing your attention).

------
cristinabunea
You can listen to this article here:

[https://www.listle.io/#/article/3127906797](https://www.listle.io/#/article/3127906797)

------
cryptozeus
I have been meditating for sometime now however lately I have been thinking
that this is one more attempt at managing the stress of daily life. Its not
the cure and definitely does not help in finding out why we need to do this to
begin with.

~~~
whiddershins
I might argue that it is precisely a route to figuring out why we need to do
this to begin with.

This notion that somehow all this suffering and stress is generated by
external factors is a trap, in my experience.

~~~
cryptozeus
I didn’t mean that all our troubles are based on external factors but it does
impact our day to day.

~~~
RugnirViking
I think the thing is that in our past lives we had a lot more time to do
nothing. Have you ever sat and stared into a fire for an extended period of
time? These kinds of calm moments of reflection happened far more often in
times gone past, especially for tens of thousands of years before significant
we developed civilisation.

Presumably because this time was abuntantly available, evolution found ways to
do some kind of bookkeeping that is very important for our survival, in a
similar manner to why sleep is important.

This is of course speculation, but in the absence of definative research about
the human brain, which is a ways off just yet, this is almost the best we
have.

------
vitro
For those interested, there is also Suizen [1] meditation which involves
playing shakuhachi bamboo flute.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suizen](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suizen)

------
namelosw
I personally don't find it useful. But it might be my own problem because I
cannot get rid of the idea of questioning meditation itself.

However if you are in doubt like me try take a nap. I find 20mins nap at noon
also works great.

------
ptah
Good start. It becomes even more beneficial with more time and by learning
from a real live person. My life has improved dramatically doing TM for the
last 15 years.

------
padpnut
Meditating daily has helped with my focus. I can now follow conversations in
work meetings a lot longer, without my mind drifting away.

------
kovek
Does anyone know what is the history of the Ohmm sound? What is the desired
effect?

~~~
kishoresurana
The correct way to say is AAAUM and not Om

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Om](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Om)

~~~
kishoresurana
Check this video [https://youtu.be/-HMgaToaEac](https://youtu.be/-HMgaToaEac)

------
jimkri
I started meditating in the beginning of the year and it really has helped me
with a lot of things. It has helped me the most with anxiety and my
ADHD/concentrating.

Ive been using Waking Up with Sam Harris, which is talked about in the
article. It has a ton of learning materials, self-timers. It follows vipassana
meditation and the app offers metta as well.

------
ausjke
i tried meditating myself but ended up with taking a short nap, 15-20 minutes
that is, no need to go to bed though, but seems nap-taking recovers the most
energy for me for the rest of the day.

------
carapace
Oysters can be eaten, but don't ignore the pearl.