Geocities Forever – neural network generated geocities pages - laacz
http://www.geocitiesforever.com/
======
versteegen
The generated English (and a number of other languages) doesn't make a lick of
sense (certainly not comparable to decent NN language models), and there's
HTML and JS visible all over the place. But they certainly _look_ a lot like
typical geocities pages. How do you generate HTML and JS with NNs? I wish
there were an explanation somewhere. Maybe that's the reason that there's so
much invalid HTML.

~~~
jnpatel
Agreed about wishing there were an explanation.

It's not clear to me that NN are the best way to get interesting Franken-
pages. Maybe a Markov chain instead?

~~~
yolesaber
The best way is to have the NN generate the HTML / CSS / JS code and then use
a markov chain to create content to populate the page with.

It also has to do with quality of input. The texts on geocities pages aren't
exactly pinnacles of clear and legible language. Same with the HTML.

------
supernintendo
GeoCities was the spark that ignited my interest in programming. I can
remember hacking together awful HTML, CSS and JavaScript for a Sonic the
Hedgehog fan page as early as middle school. Now the "home page" has been
replaced by Facebook and Twitter. The culture of the Internet has changed and
future generations are spared the need to even think about tables or color
codes (unless they actively pursue web development).

And sure, there's undeniable value in convergence. But part of me will always
miss those magical days of animated GIFs sliding across my CRT.

~~~
voltagex_
[https://neocities.org](https://neocities.org)

~~~
kyledrake
I will confirm that's why I made it.

Doesn't look like web sites are going to be replaced by a neural network
anytime soon. Not sure if I prefer the Orwellianism of social networks to a
Borg cube at this point.

------
badloginagain
I know some developers who write code like this:

index var menubar = 'solid //speed of NS message master pathwave seconds //
Don't edit below! var message="./www.oocities.com/Wraith.js"); //for yellow
you are browsers var message="Merry You are moving your source code, it you
should you have decide to one of the counter." var yvAlt = 10; var
xpos=mysteps - var ypos=new Array(); function snowNS() { if (document.all) {
// show position var a = slide.obj - expires.length; msg += (de_coselect(dy);
if (remarks < red.focus); i <= cool ; //if layer is the area b =
obj.visibility = eval(window) } // end hiding craft // set the link is the
window // showdown down for idiot swd obj = document.getElementById(e);
if((obj.top=top[i]+spring) setTimeout("move( tmLn.left+":"+minutes") +
musionhamessages; } // End Created by GeoCities Home Page Generator Yahoo!
GeoCities - father_gabriel's Home Page function Help(daLink) { var
helpWnd=window.open(daLink,"help","width=500,height=500,scrollbars=yes,dependent=yes");
} // COLOR HEAD1 HEAD2 LINE1 BODY

------
owenversteeg
Anyone want to start posting the most interesting sites they got? I'll start:

[http://www.geocitiesforever.com/ef582a29d49c0447347774cb7efc...](http://www.geocitiesforever.com/ef582a29d49c0447347774cb7efcc836bd07669e.html)

[http://www.geocitiesforever.com/4ade38484ae7d646b2c603cf21aa...](http://www.geocitiesforever.com/4ade38484ae7d646b2c603cf21aaa60d6612011d.html)

This one has a fascinating layout and a bunch of different languages:
[http://www.geocitiesforever.com/a6f8354b522a6cc573db0ddb5e07...](http://www.geocitiesforever.com/a6f8354b522a6cc573db0ddb5e073c145c31d266.html)

This one is a huge mess:
[http://www.geocitiesforever.com/0d92d6d58a7f18c3a81060cf1c99...](http://www.geocitiesforever.com/0d92d6d58a7f18c3a81060cf1c997fe2b3ed19dc.html)

This one is an experience:
[http://www.geocitiesforever.com/186fdd2501f72c7c9088678f1a06...](http://www.geocitiesforever.com/186fdd2501f72c7c9088678f1a0677149ec86eec.html)

------
jnpatel
In case it's not clear (it wasn't to me), refreshing the splash screen and
clicking the big `Enter` will show you a different generated page.

~~~
joelgrus
As will clicking any of the links on one of the generated page.

------
phreeza
I got an entire website inside a <marquee> tag, chrome showed it moving across
the screen. Didn't know such a thing was possible, i am impressed.

Also, looking at the actual page source, it makes no sense whatsoever, so this
is probably saying more about the fault tolerance of modern rendering engines
than about the NN used to generate these pages :)

------
namuol
This has to be the most interesting way to fuzz-test a browser's rendering
engine.

~~~
TazeTSchnitzel
Modern browsers are supposed to have finally standardised on how to deal with
garbage HTML like this, but it'd be interesting to see if that's actually the
case.

------
mortenjorck
I do see one missed opportunity here, and that was to frame this project not
as a NN-based Geocities page generator, but as a _mystery_.

Imagine instead a much more cryptic domain name and no landing page - just a
random page each time (but keeping the shareable links). No credits or
attributions, inviting speculation. It could have been the next Horse_ebooks!

------
KON_Air
just in case didn't know or need detox;
[http://www.oocities.org/](http://www.oocities.org/)

------
davesque
I think the takeaway here is that it generates even remotely valid HTML in
addition to remotely coherent content.

I'm not sure why they include those irrelevant promotional quotes on the
landing page. Also, zero details on the properties of the network they used.

~~~
corndoge
sometimes I think its better to leave out the details and just let the
experience be, not everything needs a how-its-made blog post and the lack of
that here feels refreshing in a way.

------
code_research
The brokenness was not the dominant factor of geocities, more the
individualism in using a limited set of design resources.

This project should be tuned more into that direction.

Is the source available?

~~~
nefitty
Well, it took me about 5 minutes of clicking through oocities to find this:
[http://www.oocities.org/tokyo/4633/xindex.html](http://www.oocities.org/tokyo/4633/xindex.html)

------
jamespitts
This is high art. Congrats.

------
bobbygoodlatte
I like to imagine randomly clicking "Enter" and having today's Drudge Report
pop up

------
rspeer
It's about time that the Library of Babel had a Web presence.

------
donatj
This literally makes my day. They should bring back Geocities

------
Pitarou
Is there an archive of TimeCube we can train this thing on?

~~~
ajosh
The first page I saw reminded me an awful lot of the time cube page.

~~~
rspeer
Yeah, why would you even need to seek out Time Cube-like input? I got a page
with a large bold, italic, underlined link that said "CLICK HERE TO BE GOD 4".

------
l33tbro
Aren't all of these just available at the Wayback Machine? Was really hoping
this person found a way to display original pages correctly with their images
intact.

~~~
drdeca
These are randomly generated based on things from geocities.

~~~
drauh
Where does the neural network come in?

~~~
yolesaber
The HTML contents of geocities pages are the input to the NN which then
creates the page you get when you hit ENTER

------
larvaetron
Reminds me of the days of sites like hell.com

------
jrnichols
I feel like I just hacked too much time. o.O

------
meeper16
aol -> geocities -> frienster -> myspace -> facebook -> _next_


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ROI on a college degree depends what you study, not where - Osiris30
http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21646220-it-depends-what-you-study-not-where?%3Ffsrc%3Dscn%2F=tw%2Fdc
======
jerf
In addition to the obvious 0 line, it's worth taking the article's observation
that S&P has returned 7.8% and mentally drawing a line there too.

Also, for anyone in the position of deciding which to do, I'd add the
observation that it is _way_ easier to go to college and get a formal
education in science, math, or engineering, and pursue an ongoing adhoc self-
directed education in the arts and humanities in your remaining decades of
life, than the other way around. Locally to HN's interests, this calculation
is a bit distorted by the way that programming can actually be learned via
adhoc self-directed education, but as science, math, and engineering goes, I'd
suggest it's on the short list of exceptions, not the rule.

~~~
emodendroket
I studied Japanese in school and I think it would have been extremely
difficult to learn on my own. So... I'd say it depends.

~~~
Bartweiss
Language seems like a complicating factor here. It's difficult (especially in
non-Latinate cases) to learn self-directed, and people who are fluent and
willing to work in the field can actually do quite well traveling and
translating for businesses and government agencies.

Of course, all of these numbers are complicated by "salary of graduates"
versus "salary of graduates employed in field".

~~~
jjuel
But it does depend. If the above poster was taking Japanese as his sole Major
it is probably not worth it. If he/she is taking it as an addendum to say a
Business degree then it is very much worth it.

~~~
emodendroket
I guess it depends how you define "worth it." I have a satisfying career but
it has nothing to do with my ability in Japanese.

------
bisRepetita
This study, like pretty much all the ones I have read on such topic, seems to
compare income people going to college vs people not going to college. And
they attribute all the benefits and ROI to college. While often it just
measures that people that are smarter and motivated (because they can and want
to go to college) do better financially than the one less smart and less
motivated.

I wish I could find a study of similarly smart and motivated people who
decided themselves to go or not to college. As a choice. And see what the
difference in earnings over life would be. That would measure the added value
of college education.

Anybody knows any such study?

I would think a smart, motivated person skipping college, having no such
costs, plus 4 extra years of income and (hopefully) savings, would have a good
ROI compared to college-educated peers. And even if they would start at a
lower level initially, they would accumulate work experience earlier, moving
up the ladder sooner.

Differently said, after 4 years, in addition to having a much healthier bank
account, could this person be the person hiring the new college graduate?

~~~
jhspaybar
I consider myself smart and motivated, I was in sales for about 8 years by
choice rather than going to college. I was good at it, but 2 years of
college(a double major), and a few years in industry and I'm now making 5x
what I did. It's an anecdote sure, but I haven't changed at all, my degree
simply qualified me for a different industry.

~~~
TDL
"2 years of college..."

This bit right here might need some clarification. I believe the current U.S.
average time in college is more than 4 years. I'm guessing you were motivated
to get your degree as quickly as possible. I don't believe young adults in
developed nations have the same motivation. 8 years in the real world will
disabuse anyone of a desire to spend more time then necessary in school.

~~~
jschwartzi
Or they got an associate's degree, which is a 2-year degree which typically
requires some lower-division coursework.

------
emodendroket
I find it disheartening that the only way it seems we can think about college
anymore is a sort of vocational school where we train for careers.

~~~
rayiner
I find that point of view to be a conceit. It's an emulation of the noble
classes of yore, who learned things they didn't need to know as a way of
signaling that they could afford to do so because they didn't need to work.
Most people are no better off 10-years down the line for having learned about
what native Americans used to live in Virginia or what covalent bonds are.

~~~
JackFr
> Most people are no better off 10-years down the line for having learned
> about what native Americans used to live in Virginia or what covalent bonds
> are.

That all depends on how you measure better off.

Knowledge, understanding, wisdom are goods unto themselves. No doubt, we need
to eat, but I'd rather know Latin, Norse mythology, Anselm's ontological
proof, the Platonic solids, and the major players in the Glorious Revolution
than not. And I'm better off for simply knowing them.

~~~
saint_fiasco
>Knowledge, understanding, wisdom

You can get the first two for free on a library.

You are making a mistake when you compare the knowledge, understanding and
wisdom you would get in College against nothing and then decide that College
is better than nothing. You should compare it against all the other things
people could be doing with that time and money. The opportunity cost.

~~~
JackFr
> The opportunity cost.

With respect to the original article, yes absolutely.

I was responding to the parent comment who described people 'no better off'
for knowing versus not knowing.

~~~
saint_fiasco
I interpreted it not as 'knowing versus not knowing' but as 'knowing about
Native Americans and covalent bonds' versus 'knowing whatever people would end
up knowing if they didn't go to College'.

Maybe they will acquire work experience, life experience, pragmatical
knowledge about how real world works, that kind of thing. Why is knowledge
about covalent bonds intrinsically more important than that?

------
geebee
This is interesting, and it came up recently in a WSJ study that showed that
the eliteness of your college doesn't matter - if you major in engineering or
CS.

I started to wonder if maybe there's another distinction that is hidden in the
data. I think we can all agree that there is a difference between earning 150k
a year as a senior software engineer and as a director of the American Musical
Heritage foundation. Some people could reasonably see those as very different
outcomes, one job far more desirable than the other.

Here's the thing - do those distinctions actually exist within computer
science as well? There's a big difference within tech. Think about being a
data scientist who writes a lot of code, but has a tremendous amount of
autonomy and freedom, who gets to initiate projects, direct his or her own
work, make presentations, speak at conferences, and so forth. Now imagine
being a senior crud bug fixer who checks JIRA every morning and works (under
constant pressure to provide updates about whether we'll still meet the
"deadline") to figure out why some payroll calculations are sometimes included
twice in the pdf report but not the excel report. Say both jobs pay 150k.

There's a big difference between that first job and the second one. Is it
possible that elite schools make it more likely that you'll get that first
job? I'm not saying this is the case, just that a hidden distinction similar
to the humanities/engineering divide may exist here...

------
codingdave
This article is about statistics, not individuals. While it certainly shows
trends, for any individual person, their ROI depends on what they do with
their own lives. (And ROI might not even be their #1 goal.)

As for me, I got a degree in Fine Arts from a small liberal arts school, then
become a coder. I have almost zero regret about that choice, 20+ years down
the line. Actually, if I had to do it again, I am more likely to skip the
coder part, not the college part. (20+ years behind a desk... I could probably
find a better path.)

------
incongruity
Do those ROI calculations include the cost of borrowing? I'd expect they don't
- and if not, it means that most degrees are no longer worth it if you have to
borrow a significant portion of the money.

With federal loans ranging between 6-8.5% (last I looked) it means that for
the first 10-20 years, the government is the one capturing the gains from many
people's college educations. There may well still be a positive ROI for some
degrees but the loan picture means it comes on a much longer timeline, doesn't
it?

~~~
roymurdock
They do. Here's the website that compiles the data:

[http://www.payscale.com/college-roi](http://www.payscale.com/college-roi)

Average loan amount is factored into the ROI calculation.

~~~
incongruity
Awesome. Thanks for the pointer.

The concern is definitely still there for folks who take above average loan
amounts.

------
dpierce9
Because this compares present day cost to all earners (not sure how they
normalized for graduate degrees, etc.), there is a huge recency bias. I
majored in humanities and minored in sciences/math about ten years ago. Even
counting my piddly graduate stipend (again, in humanities) for several years,
my return rate of return is over 20% (IRR). If my school had cost twice as
much, as it does just ten years later, the rate of return would have been less
than 10% as predicted.

------
fredley
It also depends on how much your parents earn:

[https://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/graduate-earnings-
what-y...](https://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/graduate-earnings-what-you-
study-and-where-matters-but-so-does-parents-income)

~~~
utexaspunk
While cronyism and nepotism are probably significant factors, beyond those I
don't know if what your parents earn matters as much as it may be an indicator
of your manners, knowledge of social customs, proper grammar, etc.. Perhaps
those raised in wealthy homes tend to know better how to behave among wealthy
people than those who come from poor backgrounds. All else being equal, those
who comport themselves better are more likely to get ahead.

~~~
frobozz
In the broad middle, I don't think there is much of a manners/customs/grammar
distinction. Any well-brought up middle class child should be perfectly
capable of interacting with all but the wealthiest nobility. Of course, there
are a few upper-middle class snobs who will think less of you for your lack of
oenological prowess or your off the peg suit, but such people are not a common
direct influence on that many people.

There are other factors:

* One thing is simply understanding the opportunities available to you. The idea that "People like me don't (go to university | start companies | go for promotion beyond a certain level)" is quite harmful.

* It is not uncommon that people go into the same field as one of their parents, simply because of how big an influence they are on your life as a child. If one is a doctor, and the other a barrister, then if you follow one of them, you'll make more money than if they are both in minimum-wage jobs.

* If you do follow your parents in their careers, you will have had early exposure to some of the concepts. You may therefore perform better at university intake interviews, and the relevant prerequisites. They will also know about how to progress through the career in the best way.

* Regardless of nepotism, your parents' friends are another source of examples to follow in a similar way, and may be able to dispense similar advice.

* Even if you don't follow your parents in their careers. Having a parent who graduated from a competitive course at a prestigious university (which might be indicated in their lifetime earnings) means that you still have an example to follow, and their experience to draw on. One of the reasons for poor state school intake at Oxford is that most youths don't actually know how to apply. Also, if you know what to expect from such a place, you can make more of it, particularly in terms of the extra curricular offering - e.g. networking, bursaries and careers service.

* A youth with wealthy parents may be able take better advantage of low-paid and unpaid internships. If your parents can't support you through university and early career, then you may have to make more short term decisions - e.g. taking a low-paid summer job at a bar, instead of a lower or even unpaid job at a law firm, or working evenings and weekends instead of studying.

* At the extreme end, a child in poverty is likely to have fewer books and poorer nutrition when those things matter most.

------
HarryHirsch
That is very scary if it's true. If a degree in the experimental sciences from
a top-10 institution does not pay better than a degree from Tumbleweed State
then the employment market for scientists is completely broken.

~~~
tyingq
It may pay better, but they are calculating the overall return, meaning the
cost of that top-10 degree is a factor as well.

~~~
cmdrfred
I agree this might indicate that top tier institutions simply extracted all of
the value difference that separated them from the others.

~~~
humanrebar
Well, maybe they extracted all the cash difference. Some people use degrees as
status symbols. What's the old joke? How do you know if somebody went to
Harvard?

------
optforfon
So does this mean that the mediocre and expensive private colleges end up
paying off a lot more than state schools? (the "I" being higher and therefor
the "R" being higher too)

That's deeply unsettling...

~~~
mywittyname
This was the takeaway that I had too. I'm surprised to see your comment is not
at the top of this thread.

If a more exclusive college (x-axis) is proportionally more expensive, then
this graph suggests that everyone, regardless of field, is better off going to
a more expensive college. Getting a 12% annualized return on a $100k private
bachelors is better than getting the same return on a $30k public university
education.

------
ebbv
This "article" is barely two paragraphs, and doesn't have any new information.
There's a reason Art History majors working as baristas is a well worn cliche.

------
bluthton
Bear in mind this is 20 years and not lifetime earnings. Many studies have
come out that across majors lifetime earnings are anywhere from USD 300k to
USD 1 million higher than those with only a high school diploma.[1]

[1]
[https://www.newyorkfed.org/medialibrary/media/research/curre...](https://www.newyorkfed.org/medialibrary/media/research/current_issues/ci20-3.pdf)

~~~
bluthton
Also the payscale report may not be peer-reviewed, which should give caution
when going against many peer-reviewed studies on the subject.

------
golergka
I would love to also see the data linking ROI and whether you went to study
something out of love for the craft or just because you wanted a well-paying
job.

------
s0uthPaw88
The report[0] this article reference has some puzzling exclusions to its data
set. For example, why is Harvey Mudd included, but its next door neighbor
Claremont McKenna College not? Some other notable liberal arts exclusions are
Amherst College, Swarthmore, Bowdoin and Davidson.

[0][http://www.payscale.com/college-roi](http://www.payscale.com/college-roi)

------
an4rchy
This would be very interesting to see when compared with schools outside of
the US where higher education is free or very cheap.

I'm curious about how many people go to the standard (STEM) fields of
education because of the cost, and ROI vs they are interested in them.

If people had 0 debt maybe more people might choose alternative fields of
education/careers that can impact the world in other ways.

------
vparikh
This is very encouraging to read. I have had a sense of this all along - that
which college you attend has very little to do with your intelligence or your
capabilities. In my opinion it has more to do with how much your parents make
then anything else. E=mc^2 wether you go to Princeton or you go to Caldwell
Community.

------
nepstein
Worth noting that selective schools also tend to be more expensive. Even if
the ROI isn't markedly higher, high price tag means a "larger investment" into
the high ROI option of college education.

That's a substantive advantage (to those that can afford it) given that 12%
return opportunities are scarce.

------
coldcode
I spent 6 years studying chemistry (BS and MS) and worked as a chemist for 3
months, then became a programmer in the 80's. Was my degree worth it? No.
Would I be here without a degree, unlikely even back then.

------
Kinnard
I'd be curious to see results from the uncollege program but they may be too
new for the data to make any sense:
[http://uncollege.org](http://uncollege.org)

------
Cypher
Depends on where you work too....

------
known
For MBA it depends on where you study

~~~
bryanlarsen
MBA's also have a much wider variance on costs, so return per dollar spent may
also be similar between good/expensive and bad/cheap schools.

------
tehabe
On one hand it is nice to see that the school doesn't matter as much as people
think but on the other hand it is sad that people see their studies only
through the eyes of ROI. As if education has no value of its own. I'm probably
just naive and an idealist.

~~~
cableshaft
Naivete and idealism is how we have a whole generation saddled with student
loans they can barely afford to pay, forcing them to stay in jobs they'd
rather not have, delay buying a home or getting married for decades.

I know some people on the other end of six figure student loans (I'm not,
thankfully, but I'm still going to be paying mine off for four or five years
still). These people are not doing what they'd like to do, what they studied
to do (because they can't find a job in it) and are praying for a windfall. In
some cases, hoping their family members die and leave an inheritance just so
they can pay off a chunk of the loans.

This is going to have profound effects on the economy and society for a long
time.

So yes, idealists should know what they're volunteering themselves for and how
one simple decisions can make life really difficult for them for the next
20-30 years.

This isn't the era where you could pay for a year of college with a part-time
summer job anymore, like the baby boomers had.

~~~
tehabe
I remember the long fight against tuition fees in my country and how we argued
that tuitions wouldn't improve anything except leaving students with a lot of
debt and problems. It would disadvantage so called "orchid subjects" and other
subjects which didn't promise a great career. Utilisation of education would
become more important than education. Even the switch to the Bachelor/Master
system was/is seen as part of this development. Especially since it lead to a
much more school like university. Which is the opposite of Humboldt's idea of
research and studies being one.

------
IkmoIkmo
Financial ROI of a degree primarily depends on whether the degree is in a high
or low paying field... In other news, the ocean is full of water.

No story there. But then they draw almost flat lines, indicating the
selectivity of the university (as a proxy for all kinds of things, prestige,
quality of education/network etc) plays no role. But I find it misleading.

It makes sense I think to consider that they're not looking at earning
potential, but at ROI. That means a selective school that costs $100k a year,
and nets you a $100k annual salary, yields the same ROI as going to a 10k a
year state school that gets you a 10k salary. You'd get a flat line on
selectivity/ROI, as if it doesn't matter where you study.

You can be the judge of whether you think those are equal or not, and whether
you'd be indifferent because they have the same ROI, particularly when you can
afford the investment or get the investment subsidised.


Looking for a keybase.io invite code - tvvocold
If anyone has a spare Keybase.io invite code, could you please PM me? I'd like to share mine if i got in there. Thanks in advance!! :)
Update:
Thx to constantin i got in.Now i got O Invitations Available,but you can still leave your email address here, someone (maybe me) may send the code if available.
======
chrisvogt
Would you share one with mail@chrisvogt.me please? ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ

------
tvvocold
Update:

Ok, Got 5 Invitations, Who want it?

~~~
gonchs
Do you still have them? I'm interested.

~~~
tvvocold
Sure, just leave you email here.Try it, it's cool!


Will the spring launch of Apple TV signal the end of broadcast TV? - kposehn
http://9to5mac.com/2014/02/21/opinion-will-this-spring-signal-the-beginning-of-the-end-of-live-broadcast-tv/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+9To5Mac-MacAllDay+%289+to+5+Mac+-+Apple+Intelligence%29
======
dodders
Not until live sports broadcasts are more widely available it won't.


Magic and Software Design (1993) - cstejerean
http://www.asktog.com/papers/magic.html
======
goolulusaurs
Reminds me of the opening paragraphs from SICP
([https://mitpress.mit.edu/sites/default/files/sicp/full-
text/...](https://mitpress.mit.edu/sites/default/files/sicp/full-
text/book/book-Z-H-9.html#%_chap_1))

"We are about to study the idea of a computational process. Computational
processes are abstract beings that inhabit computers. As they evolve,
processes manipulate other abstract things called data. The evolution of a
process is directed by a pattern of rules called a program. People create
programs to direct processes. In effect, we conjure the spirits of the
computer with our spells.

A computational process is indeed much like a sorcerer's idea of a spirit. It
cannot be seen or touched. It is not composed of matter at all. However, it is
very real. It can perform intellectual work. It can answer questions. It can
affect the world by disbursing money at a bank or by controlling a robot arm
in a factory. The programs we use to conjure processes are like a sorcerer's
spells. They are carefully composed from symbolic expressions in arcane and
esoteric programming languages that prescribe the tasks we want our processes
to perform.

A computational process, in a correctly working computer, executes programs
precisely and accurately. Thus, like the sorcerer's apprentice, novice
programmers must learn to understand and to anticipate the consequences of
their conjuring. Even small errors (usually called bugs or glitches) in
programs can have complex and unanticipated consequences.

Fortunately, learning to program is considerably less dangerous than learning
sorcery, because the spirits we deal with are conveniently contained in a
secure way. Real-world programming, however, requires care, expertise, and
wisdom. A small bug in a computer-aided design program, for example, can lead
to the catastrophic collapse of an airplane or a dam or the self-destruction
of an industrial robot."

------
empath75
> Houdini’s fondness for reading extended to magazines, too: after his famous
> escape from inside a locked safe behind a screen, which took mere seconds,
> he spent the next fifteen minutes back stage, idly reading a magazine, after
> which he dotted himself with water and burst forth, looking properly sweaty
> and exhausted

TurboTax famously does this. It has a few loading screens where it slowly
‘calculates your best return’. It happens instantly, of course, but they spend
about 10 seconds showing you loading bars so you think that whatever it’s
doing is difficult.

I’m a big fan of magic, and the main thing to take away from magic is this —
none of us perceive ‘reality’. Our minds create a simulation of the world
based on very limited and error prone input. And if you can carefully control
the sensory input if your spectators, you can control their reality.

The moment of the magic trick is often when the false reality you’ve created
collapses — you’ve made them believe that you put a card in the middle of the
deck, or that you’ve shuffled it, or that they had a free choice — and then
you present them with incontrovertible evidence that they had not. That moment
of inconsistency is what causes the perception of magic to happen — their mind
moves the card from the center of the deck to the top in an instant in their
internal reality, which is the only reality they’ve ever existed in.

So I guess when you’re designing software, don’t just think about how your
software works, but also think carefully about the model of reality that your
users are building. If you manipulate it carefully, you can seem to perform
miracles.

Game designers, btw, I think already understand this — games are full of hacks
and cheats that make you think there’s a whole world or a mind behind what’s
happening to your character, when it’s often quite simple behind the scenes —
magician’s choices in particular are quite popular in games — where you’re
presented with seemingly several options which all produce the same outcome.

~~~
TeMPOraL
One of these things is not like the others, one of these things just doesn't
belong.

Magic is consumed for entertainment. Applying the same techniques to more
serious aspects of life is called "fraud", and the magician is called a "con
artist".

What game developers do with their hacks and dirty tricks is building
immersion for their make-believe worlds. The player that sits in front of a
game does so voluntarily, fully aware that they're just _playing_ , that it's
all entertainment. They can lower their defenses, because they know nothing
will harm them.

What TurboTax - and other companies adopting similar UX patterns - does is
straight up lying to people. Manipulating their perception of reality for
their own economic gains. It's a malicious activity, and as such it should be
shamed, not commended.

~~~
empath75
I don’t think you should be deceitful in any meaningful way, but I don’t think
that making people wait a few seconds is anything more than showmanship.

~~~
TeMPOraL
There's no reason to do that in a non-entertainment app, unless you want to
manipulate users for your own benefit.

------
eandre
That was a quite interesting read; I hadn't heard that analogy before. It's a
shame the formatting of the page really makes it difficult to engage with the
content.

~~~
Username_w
Formatted version for you:

[https://gundog.herokuapp.com/?gundog_url=https://www.asktog....](https://gundog.herokuapp.com/?gundog_url=https://www.asktog.com/papers/magic.html)

------
smoyer
I have a couple of Tog's books (both are amazing) and used to read asktog for
inspiration ... thanks for reminding me that I should be rereading his wisdom!

[https://amzn.to/2OZSKoj](https://amzn.to/2OZSKoj)

[https://amzn.to/2UXXGO9](https://amzn.to/2UXXGO9)

------
david-cako
social media is surveillance disguised as a top hat. :)


Deb Roy: The birth of a word - skm
http://www.ted.com/talks/deb_roy_the_birth_of_a_word.html

======
bane
I've read about this project with some interest.

Seeing this presentation was remarkable. Beyond the absolutely amazing
technical achievement here, I don't know why, but I found myself incredibly
moved by this.

Some of the most stunning and _beautiful_ research I've ever seen.


Microsoft Should Give Windows 7 Away For Free - Flemlord
http://i.gizmodo.com/5141443/why-microsoft-should-give-windows-7-away
======
lionhearted
My XP laptop died permanently a little over a year ago, and there was a Vista
Toshiba at Best Buy for $1100 on a model that was $1400 most other places.
Maybe there'd have better value elsewhere, but I needed something immediate so
my work wouldn't be delayed and I got it.

Vista: Not so bad. I'd love to see it less bloated with MS processes running
invisibly, and I'd like to see it change the order things boot in so I turn it
on and get up and running faster.

Second issue: Some driver issues and some poor backwards compatibility with
programs that run fine on XP, which is quite ugly.

But beyond that, it's a good OS and a legit upgrade over XP. The UI is
faster/better once you adopt to the learning curve. Security is legitimately
upgraded, and I haven't been infected with any viruses or spyware, and I play
around with random applications all the time. I like that I can easily stop
non-MS programs from updating themselves without my blessing. Being able to
choose giving a program default "Run as Administrator" vs. leaving it less
privileges is really good.

Vista's not enough of an upgrade over XP to be worth buying, especially
considering all the good SP2 did. But everyone I know that's run Vista for at
least a couple months came around on it, unless the drivers thing bit them.
The Vista-hate is a bit overblown, though Windows 7 does look like a legit
upgrade.


The Atomic Soldiers: U.S. Veterans, Used as Guinea Pigs, Break the Silence - howard941
https://www.theatlantic.com/video/index/590299/atomic-soldiers/
======
charlescearl
Does anyone know of a way to obtain an official listing of participants in
nuclear tests? My father had described in detail being taken out to one of the
Nevada tests sometime in the '50s when he was in USMC. He passed away from
cancer in the 1980's. I reckon with some cross checking of muster rolls and
tests I should be able to piece it together.


The Peter Principle is a joke taken seriously. Is it true? - cirrus-clouds
http://timharford.com/2018/08/the-peter-principle-is-a-joke-taken-seriously-is-it-true/
======
sofon
Really interesting article!

The Peter principle states that "every employee tends to rise to his level of
incompetence". The article cites an example from Sales teams. That it's the
highest performing sales people that are promoted to sales team managers, and
they don't perform well as managers (team performance drops).

They then talk about solutions, such are promoting people at random.

But it seems like at least part of the problem in endemic in our view of
organisations. People often want management positions because they are paid
more, are more secure, or have more power. Maybe if we shifted our view of
management as "just being a different skill set" and not always being higher
paid then we'd find people without the required skills wouldn't try and obtain
those positions and would focus on what they are good at.

~~~
masklinn
> But it seems like at least part of the problem in endemic in our view of
> organisations. People often want management positions because they are paid
> more, are more secure, or have more power. Maybe if we shifted our view of
> management as "just being a different skill set" and not always being higher
> paid then we'd find people without the required skills wouldn't try and
> obtain those positions and would focus on what they are good at.

Some tech companies have started to do that with technical seniority tracks. I
think one bit that's still missing remains the ability to move people back
into previous positions without loss of face or income if they don't fit in
the new one.

~~~
CJefferson
The problem, which I worry is unfixable, is that managers are the people who
decide which jobs are most stable and paid the most. Unsurprisingly, they give
themselves the majority of the spoils.

~~~
rollthehard6
It's interesting too that democracy is lauded in the west but companies are
never run that way.

~~~
alexandros
Try to start a democratic company (or run a thought experiment about doing so)
and you will probably find the reasons why democracy works better as a way to
manage a society than a single company.

~~~
dsego
It's not like it's unheard of, but it doesn't fill the pockets of the selected
elite.

There are worker cooperatives:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worker_cooperative](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worker_cooperative)

Workers' self management: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workers%27_self-
management](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workers%27_self-management)

And serious economists who advocate for such a system:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Branko_Horvat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Branko_Horvat)

------
harryf
Most organisations structure power in hierarchies, meaning a small number of
people at the top of the pyramid are responsible and supposed to be ultimately
accountable for ALL decisions being made under that structure.

This naturally leads to a situation where those working at the top are being
overwhelmed with demands for their attention and decision making approval.

A conscientious person - arguably a good _leader_ - will take this
responsibility seriously, and devote their time and energy to handle all those
demands as best they can.

But another type of person - a "player" \- will realise that the work of
decision making actually _detracts_ from their success within the
organisation. A "player" will figure out they should avoid the work of
leadership as much as possible and instead devote their time to fostering
their own image, gaining popularity, claiming responsibility for other peoples
good decisions and generally working their way up the pyramid.

For me hierarchical power structures are the root cause of the problem here,
not human nature - the "player" is really acting rationally, taking the path
of least resistance to achieve their goals.

The problem IMO is we're using legacy approaches to organising ourselves
groups that stems from military theory of the 18th century - that most armies
themselves have now moved beyond - see [https://www.amazon.com/Corps-Business-
Management-Principles-...](https://www.amazon.com/Corps-Business-Management-
Principles-Marines/dp/0066619793).

We need smarter ways to organise and we probably need AI at some level to help
us scale up to higher volumes of effective decision making.

~~~
js8
I agree. However, I don't see any other way how to prevent players doing this
except democracy - a system where every person has (prescriptively) the same
amount of power.

However, many people reject the idea of economic democracy, despite studies
showing that e.g. worker cooperatives often have higher productivity and
despite the fact that we accept democratic governance as a way to operate the
government.

~~~
wolf550e
Flat organizations aren't really flat. Instead of written org chart you have
an unwritten org chart and it might be harder to replace a bad informal
manager than a bad formal manager. See:
[https://www.jofreeman.com/joreen/tyranny.htm](https://www.jofreeman.com/joreen/tyranny.htm)

~~~
js8
Democratic and flat is not the same (I was wondering if this confusion comes
up). Flat doesn't necessarily prescribes what the power distribution is, but
democracy does. On the other hand, democratic systems can have an
organizational hierarchy too, as is a case with representative democracy.

------
brownbat
The Peter Principle suggests people are promoted to the level of their
incompetence. The Dilbert Principle (which Harford also mentions) suggests
incompetents are promoted to middle management to minimize their ability to do
harm.

The Gervais Principle uses The Office (and organizational theory according to
Whyte) as a reference. The firm ranges from pathological to chaotic. Clueless
overachievers get put in middle management, while sociopaths are groomed to
jump to the top positions.

This was a funny, interesting overview, made me actually want to read about
academic organizational theory for the first time in my life:

[https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-
principle-...](https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-or-
the-office-according-to-the-office/)

~~~
tpm
Yes, that is an excellent series of articles. Highly recommended.

------
coldtea
> _The Peter Principle is satire: it mocks management and it mocks books about
> management. It is striking, then, that most people take it quite seriously._

It might have been intended as satire.

I see nothing in it that cannot be used as a straight argument with quite good
explanatory and predictive power.

A lot of things started as something else. It's their inherent qualities that
matter as to what they are, not the intentions of the creator.

> _So Profs Pluchino, Rapisarda and Garofalo suggest a compromise: promote
> people at random. This may be the best response to a world where leaders
> stick around until they are ready to depart. But there is an obvious
> alternative: when people are not up to the demands of their job, we should
> not wait for them to resign. They should be sacked — or, perhaps better,
> demoted back to the roles where they once flourished._

Both were attributes of the old Athenian democracy.

------
stareatgoats
The problem with the Peter Principle (and similar) is that it doesn't account
for the skill of getting promoted, which is a separate skill from professional
skills as in salesmanship, technology and math skills, or people skills.
People who rise to the top usually have developed a keen sense of what enables
promotion, and once promoted what it requires to keep that position. To a
large extent it becomes managerial skills which may as such be learnt in
schools, but such courses seldom deal with the politics side. To be successful
one probably need to figure it out for oneself, and even then chance plays a
large part.

Which is why the article is wrong: the front bench of the house of commons and
the people mentioned (and others mentioned in similar tirades) are not stupid,
they are highly adept, it's just that this skill doesn't have a (non-
derogatory) name AFAICT. And it doesn't necessarily correlate with our
preconceptions of what people at such positions in society or organizations
should be good at.

------
lkrubner
From what I've seen, there is a large random element to promotions. A few
corporations put in place good processes that ensure that promotions occur
according to some specific criteria, but such corporations are rare. Most
promotions arise from the gut level feelings of managers, and we all know how
much those gut level feelings are open to irrational biases. There are the
obvious, well documented biases involving race and language and religion and
gender, as well as many other forms of biases that come down to subtle
differences in communication style.

For those who prefer famous examples, I'll offer one that Peter F Drucker
often discussed: the difference in communication styles between John F Kennedy
and Lyndon Johnson. Both men were very smart and talented, in their own ways,
but Kennedy preferred to receive information in written form, whereas Johnson
preferred to receive information orally. Kennedy was a reader, Johnson was a
talker. However, Johnson also felt insecure regarding the dazzling education
that the Kennedy's had, and Johnson wanted to imitate their style. So when
Johnson became President, he kept around many of the Kennedy people, who
continued to write long reports, of the type that Kennedy would have
appreciated. Johnson didn't read them, he wasn't a reader. And then he'd ask
someone like McNamara to orally offer a short summary of a long report, and
McNamara would leave out a lot of details that he assumed Johnson had already
seen in the written report.

In Drucker's opinion, this was how a leader as smart as Johnson could stumble
into a mistake as big as Vietnam.

Did Johnson deserve the promotion he got? Most would say he had the
intelligence and managerial skill to handle the top job. He had done a
fantastic job in the Senate. But he was undermined by irrational and emotional
factors, in particular the subtle kind of class envy that would cause him to
want to imitate the highly literate style of the Kennedy's.

I've seen something like this at most of the places I've worked, leaders who
could have been good if a few circumstances were different, but its only in
retrospect that it becomes clear which circumstances should have been
different.

The Peter Principle describes a system of promotion that basically rational
until it goes too far. But I've never seen anything that rational, not at any
of the places I've worked.

------
sureaboutthis
I thought a lot about this a while back. A very few large companies have dual
tracks, one for promoting professional engineers but keep them out of the
management track. In my opinion, this is a good idea.

If a software or hardware engineer is promoted into managing other engineers,
this is an entirely different skill. It helps when one understands the
technical requirements and issues but management is a business skill.

~~~
gregoriol
Management is not a business skill: it's an HR skill.

~~~
barrkel
There's at least two distinct aspects to management.

One is getting the best out of the team. The manager is subservient to the
needs of the team, from this perspective.

The other is ensuring the team is doing the right thing. The manager is in
control of the team in this perspective.

The former has more of the human relations aspect. The latter is definitely
business focused.

~~~
PeterisP
The military approach is interesting in this regard - generally you have a
"leadership pair" of officer+NCO; commanding officer + executive officer, with
quite separate duties, one is responsible for planning and giving the
orders/deciding what needs to be done; and the other is responsible for
"managing the troops" to get that task done effectively and ensuring that they
have what they need to do it.

Business, on the other hand, tends to conflate these roles in a single
position.

------
scarface74
I know of a lot of tech people who “self demote” because they don’t enjoy
management and others who left jobs to avoid managemt. and you can do quite
well as an individual contributor. Is that true in other industries?

~~~
Ftuuky
In a similar way, I know a lot of people who do their best to not look good
for a promotion. Most of them are coders that do not want to stop programming
and start managing teams.

------
notahacker
> The better they had been in sales, the worse their teams performed once they
> arrived in a managerial role

I hope the study authors controlled for the [short term] effects on relative
team performance of taking a very effective salesperson out of the sales force
[and not even having a replacement]...

------
toxik
Jokes aside, I'm not so sure the Peter principle applies equally to everybody
-- I know a some who hold on to positions because they enjoy the position.
Granted, in some fields it is essentially impossible to not be promoted as it
were.

~~~
treve
I don't the the implication is that it applies to everyone. I think the
general idea is that in a large enough organization, there's going to be a
relevant amount of people whom it does apply to.

~~~
toxik
Maybe it should be thought of more as a force, proportional to the
organization size. But then I guess the comedy of it kinda dies out.

------
megamindbrian2
My manager at Charles Schwab said "managers don't know anything"

~~~
bobosha
did he?

~~~
megamindbrian2
They knew how to have a better attitude about it than me. Didn't last long.

------
masswerk
(Not so seriously.) I suggest, it may be even worse. Arguably, a person who is
able to integrate, to connect and to convey her/his thinking to an audience is
more likely to be regarded widely as competent than a person who doesn't. But
there's a problem with this, namely complexity of thinking. We may observe
that it becomes extremely more difficult to connect in this way, as the
distance in understanding and the complexity of reasoning increases from a
common mean of understanding, as the load of information and education implied
and required to follow an argument separates an expert from a layperson.
However, there's a feeling of suitability of what is to be conveyed, to be
discussed, what may be worth to be communicated. Generally, we do not like to
just repeat the basics of our understanding, this is not the point we're at,
the gravitational center of our deliberations. We haven't engaged in higher
education, just to repeat the eyeopening one-liners of the introductory
lessons over and over again. There's a gradient of complexity, and arguably a
worthwhile statement is located somewhere at the higher half of it. And, as
things are, the more natural we are, the better, the more successful we are in
communications.

By this, we may conclude, a person commonly acknowledged for her/his
competence is also a person successful in communicating understanding, thus a
person, who's understanding is essentially neither more informed nor more
complex than the average understanding. A person at the high point of the
career, just before adhering to Peter's principle, is also a person, who has
been shifting for merits, understood by just few, eventually to a field, where
her/his genuine level of competence is just a bit above of the one of the
general public, honoring this with general praise. The experts must stand
aside, in shame, as they are necessarily excluded from this communion. Even
if, by some peculiar accident, our person has maintained a respectable level
of expertise, she is ultimately nudged towards a flattering level of
communicability. Thus we may propose, a successful career is rather the matter
of a diminishing epsilon, which separates expertise from common understanding.
Peter's principle is not dysfunctional, but rather the vanishing point (quite
in the literal meaning, as far as this epsilon is concerned).

------
thedancollins
Without the social component we as a species would not have accomplished as
much as we have. We would not, for instance, have been so successful at
sustenance that we would have time to sit around griping about our bosses -
people who are there precisely because without them - we would not have time
to sit around griping about them.

Organizations scale at the cost of efficiency - but scale they do. Incredibly
powerful and inescapable - your idiot boss is here to stay.

------
jvanderbot
At my job, leadership and mgmt responsibilities are given before promotion,
and those who do well are promoted to management much later. Those who do not
do well in managrment are instead promoted if they stuck to what they are good
at.

Oh also, promotions and raises are seperate. One is responsibility change, one
is salary change.

This doesn't seem hard.

~~~
jhayward
> At my job, leadership and mgmt responsibilities are given before promotion

This is the principle used in the US military (at least, the enlisted ranks)
as well - the promotion signifies not that the person is capable of carrying
out the responsibilities, but recognizes that _they are already doing so_.

------
perculis
As a developer who has risen through management ranks quickly I can say that
without training and support I would have very readily lived this principle.
One set of skills can only be partially transferable to the new demands of
management.

------
stefs
my thoughts on this. warning: lots of assumptions, technicalities and
anecdotal evidence following.

let's assume the reward we're talking about here and people are mostly after
is financial (i.e. pay increase). so if you are after higher pay, a promotion
"up the corporate ladder" is the natural way, as your wage would increase much
more slowly if you stayed at the same job. this at least is even codified in
most countries minimum wage laws.

but what about that ladder? why is it "moving up" (good) and "moving down"
(bad)? software engineering is an interesting example here, as you can fill
almost every available position with people whose skill can make a difference.
an expert tester, an gifted community manager, UX designer or talented
technical documentation writer might all have an impact on the product that's
worth their weight in gold, even though the results might not be as obvious
and tangible as those of, say, a project manager (who could convincingly claim
the success of a project while this would be strange for a technical writer).
compared to unskilled rote work where the worker mostly simply has to show up
and do his/her job.

thus, the question is, why does someone "higher up" the ladder earn more than
someone "lower down". obvious answers to this are workload, skill,
responsibility and quantity.

as for workload: 1. being higher up the ladder doesn't automatically mean one
is working more and harder than the people below one. 2. working more (hours)
doesn't necessarily mean one's more effective. at some point effectiveness
decreases due to stress, sleep deprivation, burn out.

as for skill: the peter principle itself and years of anecdotal evidence
(through the media, not necessarily personal) have shown that moving up the
ladder into different jobs doesn't necessarily equate with higher skill in the
new position.

as for responsibility: 1. at least in software engineering, criminal
prosecution for incompetence at the managerial/top level is rare (assumption).
positions that require _real_ personal responsibility (say, something where
lives are on the line) aren't necessarily paid better. nurses or teachers
aren't paid better than CFOs, they're much more at risk for prosecution in
case of negligence or incompetence. 2. failure to do your managerial job in
one company well doesn't necessarily prevent you from getting the same job in
a different company, as much hinges on a personal network and it's usually
easier to get exposure to potential future employers if you're regularly
working with partners and customers instead of just interfacing with other
people from the same company (assumption). 3. personal responsibility for your
family and dependents: higher pay usually means more savings, which makes one
less dependent on keeping the same job than someone with less pay and savings.
this might be disputed as higher pay usually means a more lavish lifestyle and
higher expenditures, but a loaf of bread costs the same for everyone, some
costs are just fixed and the system is somewhat rigged to care for those at
the top (anecdotal evidence).

as for quantity: this is what makes it a hierarchy. if there's one project
manager for a project with, say, five developers, PM positions are obviously
rarer than developer positions. i can't think of a reason why this should have
an influence on reward though. managing people is a very different skill to
writing code; there's technically less demand for it (as you only need one
manager for N developers) but i'm not convinced that your skill here has a
higher impact. while four good developers can make up for one bad developer
and still keep the quality high, five good developers could also make up for
one bad manager and still keep the quality high. the quality of the managerial
work doesn't introduce a skill ceiling; i see it more as a multiplicator of
the work of his/her teammates (and maybe a lower skill boundary, if a good
manager can effectively handle sub-par actors). the other angle here is
_availability_, but i'm not convinced it's harder to find a good PM than it's
to find a good technical writer nowadays.

so, what i want to say is that the corporate ladder itself is a misguided,
outdated construct and basing your wage on your position on it is actively
harmful. it forces employees to abandon the work they're skilled and talented
at for jobs that are rewarded better for worse quality and job satisfaction.

it should be seen as a graph where the node weight (pay) depends on
effectiveness. which is hard compared to ladder position as the latter is
trivial to assess, constant and traditionally socially accepted while the
former is highly dependent on circumstances, hard to measure and introduces
additional risks due to social dynamics.

i'm convinced the upsides of removing the pressure to "move up" the
ladder/hierarchy for financial gain would greatly benefit a company - and
society as a whole, if implemented universally -, but i'm not sure if people
are ready for it and whether we have the tools and systems to implement it
correctly.

i guess back then i thought google would be the company that finally broke the
barrier back then when one of their mottos was that managers aren't more
important than developers. not sure if that's still the case, ever was the
case or whether they have reverted to a more traditional model.

------
Confusion
Contra Betteridge's law of headlines.

------
crooked-v
tl;dr: yes

------
jimwhite
It's not a joke. It's an aphorism that is funny because it is true.

------
cma
You could apply the same joke principle to athletes and say they are all in
the wrong league for their skill level.

~~~
wizzard
The Peter Principle is about being promoted to a job that demands different
skills. Athletes are promoted to jobs with the same skills, so the principle
doesn't apply.

~~~
cma
Does that really happen all that often? Pitchers are usually paid highly.
Would a really good catcher get promoted to pitcher? Why wouldn't businesses
treat it mostly the same? Of course sometimes people try out a new role, but
if they aren't good they are often fired or go back to their old role.

------
jchook
> If someone is good at her job, she’ll be promoted...

This is exactly the opposite of how I understand the Peter Principle.

My understanding is that folks who are good at their job remain in their
position (because they are good/effective workers adding value to the
company). Meanwhile, employees that cause problems on the job get promoted out
of a position where they can do damage, because it’s easier to promote than to
fire for whatever reason.


Amsterdam tourist unwittingly pays for shipping container in Airbnb booking - rayascott
https://news.sky.com/story/amsterdam-tourist-unwittingly-pays-for-shipping-container-in-airbnb-booking-11721244
======
skloff
Every Airbnb page should have a floor plan and it would make things harder for
fraudulent hosts [https://www.archibnb.com](https://www.archibnb.com)


WSO2's Employee Performance Evaluation System - TylerJewell
https://medium.com/@tylerjewell/wso2s-new-approach-to-performance-reviews-66daac9500b9
======
TylerJewell
Hi - HN community. WSO2's leadership would be happy to discuss the philosophy
behind our approach to recruiting and performance reviews discussed in the
article. Feel free to ask questions here.


Learn AngularJS with free interactive lessons - Garbage
http://www.learn-angular.org/
======
jschuur
CodeSchool recently launched a (Google sponsored, free) Angular course with
exercises too:

[http://campus.codeschool.com/courses/shaping-up-with-
angular...](http://campus.codeschool.com/courses/shaping-up-with-angular-js)

The more the merrier!

~~~
aaronm14
Looks promising, but the videos don't seem to buffer for me at least. My
internet isn't strong enough to play it continuously so I normally just pause
videos, wait a few minutes, then try playing them. Doesn't seem to make a
difference with their videos for some reason. Any tips?

~~~
sespindola
They're probably using DASH[1]. The video is split into several segments and
therefore the player will fill the bufer only until the end of the current
segment.

Below each codeschool video you have a download link, so you can view them
offline.

[1]:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_Adaptive_Streaming_over...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_Adaptive_Streaming_over_HTTP)

~~~
aaronm14
I see that's probably what it is, thanks for the info. I will probably just
need to download them.

------
ttty
Look at the pages indexed in google:
[https://www.google.pt/search?q=inurl%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.lear...](https://www.google.pt/search?q=inurl%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.learn-
angular.org%2F)

Now look at the source with ctrl+u. (example url: view-
source:[http://www.learn-angular.org/#!/lessons/binding-css-
classes](http://www.learn-angular.org/#!/lessons/binding-css-classes))

Now you know why he needs server side rendering (:

Anyway I never tried angular, and this tutorial made me try it. Is explains
very very well how to get started, that's true.

~~~
clubhi
Seeing how I figured out how to index angularjs pages for searching myself in
one evening I imagine it won't be too long before google improves on this.

~~~
andybak
I'm not sure it's Google's job to.

Or rather - even if Google figures out how to index these pages, why should
every other consumer of web content have to also figure it out when it's the
fault of the content itself.

i.e. don't break the web.

~~~
twerquie
I would argue that Google's job now includes executing javascript and
evaluating dynamically loaded content.

Break the web.

~~~
andybak
Be careful what you wish for.

~~~
dlsym
Flash. _shiver_

------
carrollgt91
Great tutorial. I love these interactive lessons, but one thing I'd love to
see in this tutorial (and many others like it) is something that Michael Hartl
does in railstutorial.org, which is an extra credit section.

In the later sections of the tutorial, the addition of some suggestions for
extending each example would be great. You don't need any "stuck"
functionality or anything like that here; just some casual examples of how
else you could use the subject of the tutorial would really help solidify the
concepts.

------
dabit3
Awesome resource and great lessons. I just went through a lot of them, but I
have to say the quality of the new CodeSchool course is amazing (and a lot
more comprehensive than this one).

------
usablebytes
I was using the CodeAcademy courses, they are equally good. Although I have
looked into only the first few lessons on learn-angular.

------
sycren
Is there anything like this for other languages and libraries? I know about
try ruby, js & python. Any others?

~~~
nkozyra
Go has a omnipresent compiler not just in the Playground:

[http://play.golang.org/](http://play.golang.org/)

But also in their tutorials:

[http://tour.golang.org/#1](http://tour.golang.org/#1)

------
full-of-foo
Great, bookmarked and thank you.

------
exodust
I might take a look at this, have not yet looked into Angular.

It is a little disappointing to disable javascript and refresh the page at
www.learn-angular.org, it's just a blank page. As much as I'm a javascript
fan, and have made single page apps, a completely blank page without JS just
feels wrong. I'm guessing this isn't the fault of Angular.. or is it?

~~~
rev087
While Angular can certainly be used for simple progressive enhancement-kind
interactions, its strength lies in single page/fat client apps, and in this
case not having javascript and still getting basic functionality would mean
duplicating it on the server. Still, it would be a good idea to display a
noscript message alerting the user about the JS requirement.

~~~
camus2
Blank landing pages = bad CEO,no matter how much escape fragment or trick one
pulls. And CEO still make a difference,when the social echo dims.

~~~
babuskov
While I agree that having a good CEO is important for any company, it this
case SEO would be much more relevant ;)


Tabula PDF: Extract table data from PDFs - scrollaway
https://tabula.technology/
======
scrollaway
So I started working with MCCs (Merchant Category Codes AKA ISO 18245) and I
needed some decent lookup tables for them.

I just spent several hours fighting with awful spec PDFs containing hundreds
upon hundreds of tables of these. Well, Tabula made quick work of all of them:

[https://github.com/jleclanche/python-
iso18245](https://github.com/jleclanche/python-iso18245)

It extracted over 200 pages of tables with nearly no errors, and maybe a grand
total of ~15 mins of manual cleanup work needed to have the data be
processable by the library.

Final CSVs: [https://github.com/jleclanche/python-
iso18245/tree/master/is...](https://github.com/jleclanche/python-
iso18245/tree/master/iso18245/data)


For financial geeks, a do-it-yourself hedge fund site - arbuge
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/financial-geeks-yourself-hedge-fund-185923956.html?l=1

======
chrisgd
ReAlly interesting site that I have spent some time on. I am not sure all back
testing data accounts for survivorship data. Neat site though


Why Do Americans Hate Android And Love Apple? - treskot
http://readwrite.com/2013/01/29/why-do-americans-hate-android-and-love-apple
======
mikecane
In America, people were burned badly by a bunch of Android craptabs two years
ago. For example, the now-gone Borders sold the hell out of the Cruz Tablet,
which was simply a piece of shit. The parade of craptabs have continued, with
Archos producing a Retina-class tablet -- the 97 Titanium -- that is simply
junk.

------
Zigurd
Might be a simpler explanation: iPhone had the longest head-start in the US.

Users, developers, and designers all have an iPhone bias because, for a few
years, it was the only new-generation smartphone.

For many users, there is simply no reason to switch. iPhone is a really nice
product.

Tablets are a more-competitive situation. I can see someone switching to a
Nexus 10 or Asus from an iPad. But there, again, Apple has a huge head start,
and many users will find too little reason to switch.


AbstractQueryFactoryFactories and alias_method_chain: The Ruby Way - wycats
http://yehudakatz.com/2010/02/15/abstractqueryfactoryfactories-and-alias_method_chain-the-ruby-way/

======
duairc
I've always thought that alias_method was a pretty silly way to solve the
problem of defining a new method in terms of an existing method with the same
name. alias_method is definitely "simpler", but I think the way it actually
destructively creates a method in a class is a bit ugly. I don't know what
"AbstractQueryFactoryFactories" are, but the name makes me want to stay pretty
far away from them.

These monkey patches constitute my solution to the problem:

        class UnboundMethod
          def origin
            owner.instance_method(name)
          end
        end

        class Proc
          def to_method(object, method)
            me = self
            object.class.class_eval do
              current = instance_method(method).origin rescue nil
              mine = current.owner == self rescue false
              define_method(method, &me)
              result = instance_method(method)
              mine ? define_method(method, current) : remove_method(method)
              result
            end.bind(object)
          end
        end

        class Module
          def redefine(method, &code)
            original = instance_method(method).origin
            define_method(method) do |*args, &block|
              code.to_method(self, method).(original.bind(self), *args, &block)
            end
          end
        end

You use this as follows:

        Fixnum.redefine(:+) do |old_plus, other|
          if self == 2 and other == 2
            5
          else
            old_plus.(other)
          end
        end

        >> 2 + 2
        => 5
        >> 2 + 3
        => 5
        >> 2 + 1
        => 3

I'll admit that its implementation is pretty horrible, but I think the
interface is much nicer: you pass in a function which specifies your new
function in terms of the old one, which is always passed as the first
argument.

~~~
jherdman
You're actually reimplementing some parts of Ruby that already exist:
<http://ruby-doc.org/core-1.8.7/classes/UnboundMethod.html>

~~~
duairc
Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean. What did I implement that already exists?
The only method I added to UnboundMethod was origin, and I don't see a method
on that page that does that.

~~~
jherdman
Err... apologies. I thought you were unaware of the UnboundMethod class.

------
hypermatt
I'm glad someone responded to the original post, after so many years of java,
I can't really say I ever enjoyed factories they always seemed to solve a
problem that was a weakness in the language itself.

~~~
technomancy
I'm surprised anyone bothered; the original post was so very obviously troll
bait. People who've been in the Ruby community as long as Yehuda should know
better.

------
naz
Good writeup but it could have been more useful if he showed the equivalent
Java code.

~~~
jdminhbg
The equivalent Java code is in the original post he's responding to.

~~~
pvg
It's Scala code.


Apple Files Lawsuit Against White iPhone Kid - bproper
http://www.betabeat.com/2011/05/27/as-apple-cracks-down-white-iphone-kid-hopes-to-go-it-alone/

======
glenra
Apple filed suit to put on record that it's illegal to sell (and profit from)
white iPhones that customers might confuse with the official ones. But then
they appear to have _settled out of court with the family_ , making this a
non-story. Quote:

"Apple did, however, also file a _voluntary dismissal_ of the lawsuit at the
same time, suggesting that a settlement has may have been reached, although
Apple's request for dismissal without prejudice means that the company
reserves the right to refile the claim at some point in the future."

Source: [http://www.macrumors.com/2011/05/26/apple-files-lawsuit-
agai...](http://www.macrumors.com/2011/05/26/apple-files-lawsuit-against-
teenager-who-sold-white-iphone-4-conversion-kits-settlement-reached/)

~~~
alanh
I was really disheartened to read this story, but now you point out it’s a
non-issue and essentially that the article is misleading to the point of
libel. Flagged this story.

------
eck
He sold a product with the trademarked Apple logo on it without authorization
from Apple, and they're protecting their trademark. How is this a story?

Is there a trademark exception for being a kid? No.

Is there a trademark exception for "same shape as different colored component
of product"? No.

Now, had he sold a white case _without_ the logo, that would be a totally
different story...

~~~
tsuraan
He stopped when they told him to. He complied with their requests, and now
they're suing him and his parents. They aren't just protecting their trademark
at this point, they're going for blood.

~~~
eck
If it were acceptable to infringe a trademark for a few months and make $130k,
and the only consequence was being forced to stop, a lot of people would think
(correctly) that doing so is a profitable activity. Apple is demonstrating
that it is not.

------
GHFigs
_Apple did, however, also file a voluntary dismissal of the lawsuit at the
same time, suggesting that a settlement has may have been reached, although
Apple's request for dismissal without prejudice means that the company
reserves the right to refile the claim at some point in the future._ \--
[http://www.macrumors.com/2011/05/26/apple-files-lawsuit-
agai...](http://www.macrumors.com/2011/05/26/apple-files-lawsuit-against-
teenager-who-sold-white-iphone-4-conversion-kits-settlement-reached/)

Note: This is the article that Betabeat itself links to.

------
xxpor
Is Woz on Apple's board? Wouldn't it be inappropriate for him to help Fei if
he is?

~~~
qq66
No he is not.

<http://www.apple.com/pr/bios/bod.html>

~~~
xxpor
Thanks for that link. I'm surprised at who's on that board. CEO of Avon? Seems
pretty random.

~~~
ahi
They are legally required to have some number of independent directors. This
is to prevent executive backscratching, self-dealing, etc. The CEO of Avon is
probably on the board precisely because it's kind of random. Their job is to
read the financials and keep an eye on the board members that have experience
in the industry.

------
jrspruitt
I think it will be interesting to see if he is tried as an adult or not. Seems
a bit odd, someone his age has the potential for a lesser sentence had he
committed a violent crime, but perhaps not for copyright infringement. Either
way, I think the MPAA/RIAA proved legally roughing up kids isn't the best
habit to have.

~~~
mbrubeck
This is a trademark infringement suit, not a criminal trial. (This means he is
not being "tried" or "sentenced" and it's not like he's risking jail time.)

Update: It actually is possible for willful trademark infringement to lead to
changes of "criminal counterfeiting" although this particular case was a civil
suit brought by Apple, not a criminal case brought by the state.

[http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/US_Trademark_Law#Criminal_count...](http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/US_Trademark_Law#Criminal_counterfeiting)

~~~
jrspruitt
ah, I apologize, I didn't realize there was a difference when it came to
people under 18. Still seems a bit odd they would cut kids slack for one, but
not the other.

------
ankimal
Come on.. cut the kid a break. If you wanna _punish_ him, take his profits,
put it in some kind of trust fund or education fund for him and win some PR
points while you're at it.

~~~
brandall10
Sounds like that was what the kid was doing with it -

"Since shutting down whiteiPhone4now.com, Lam has been working on a startup,
similarinterests.org, a social web application for connecting users with
shared likes. “I’m very thankful,” he said of the money he made on the
iPhones. “For months I was struggling for an idea that would bootstrap my
first startup and help pay for college.”"

------
wccrawford
That's pretty cold and heartless. I understand defending your trademarks and
all, but beating a 9 yr old into the ground AFTER he complies with everything
you asked is too much. ALL his profits? Ugh. He never pretended to be Apple
and it was very clear that they weren't official Apple products.

~~~
SeoxyS
Terribly misinformed comment. First of all, he's is definitely not a 9 year
old. He's 17. Also this is one of the least objective stories I've seen on HN
in a while. It makes no mention of Apple withdrawing the suit upon successful
settlement.


Manhattan Resident Develops iPhone App to Track Homeless People - jsnathan
http://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelthomsen/2015/09/26/manhattan-resident-develops-iphone-app-to-track-homeless-people/
======
a3n
[http://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelthomsen/2015/09/26/manhat...](http://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelthomsen/2015/09/26/manhattan-
resident-develops-iphone-app-to-track-homeless-people/)


Want to surf a web w/out flash ads? Add "Gomez" to your user agent. - freejoe76

Gomez is the name of a site performance monitor, and it sends bots out across the web, and many ad vendors "sniff" for it and don't serve ads if they think you're a Gomez bot.
======
technomancy
Another way is to just not install the flash plugin.

~~~
freejoe76
But then you wouldn't get to see restaurant web sites.

~~~
dholowiski
Or Beer sites.

~~~
gentle
Or "video" sites


Open Letter from DHH to Jeff Bezos - auslegung
https://m.signalvnoise.com/dear-jeff/
======
htk
Demagogue.

Also, I’ve learned nothing from this blog post.


Google IO 2013 – Google Glass Sessions - ireadqrcodes
http://glass-apps.org/google-io-2013-google-glass-sessions
======
nolok
Where is the app from a few years back, where you pointed your phone camera at
some text and it switched it with a translated version of it live in-picture ?

Not only did it look awesome, but it would also be a perfect application for
google's glass. Imagine, you're in berlin, or tokyo, or madrid, you read the
menu in a restaurant and you have the exact translation displayed to you live
in the corner of your view ? Or in a museum, etc ..

~~~
nati
I think there is such a feature built in google glass or someone will
integrate google goggles into google glass

~~~
dombili
Not exactly. You have to talk to it in order for it to translate a text.
Something like "OK Glass, say something something in Japanese".

------
stuartmemo
The fireside chat had an interesting moment where they showed Glass on
prescriptions glasses, which made them slightly more inconspicuous I thought -
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8OUSd8zqT4&feature=youtu...](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8OUSd8zqT4&feature=youtu.be&t=5m11s)

------
twiceaday
I like the Sharingan logo, very apropos. In Naruto, the Uchiha clan derives
their powers from having special eyes. A three-prong pupil indicates that the
bearer unlocked extremely powerful abilities by killing somebody very close to
them, usually a best friend.

~~~
nati
with google glass you only need to kill your best friends privacy :-)

------
spiritplumber
Saw some people with them at maker faire, you still have to interrupt a
conversation to take a picture and whatnot. I'm waiting (read: hacking at it)
for Neurosky integration, or at least blink-pattern reading.

~~~
Kiro
I thought winks were the standard way to take pictures with Glass now. At
least that's how everyone at Google I/O is doing it and is the feature most
people are praising.

------
ireadqrcodes
did you see the first cellphones?

------
StartupSushi
Google Glass only needs to get over its initial days in which it is viewed as
awkward and then it will be socially acceptable. Unlike the first cellphones,
its plainly visible even when you're not using it, and like Bluetooth headsets
there's a risk of being perceived as someone not caring about their
surroundings.

Even on a forum like Slashdot which is populated by uber-geeks, here's the
results of an ongoing poll with ~5000 people voting.

Head-mounted displays / sensors like Google Glass are:

Creepy 1823 votes / 32%

Cool 821 votes / 14%

Ugly 502 votes / 8%

Baffling 323 votes / 5%

Intriguing 1498 votes / 26%

Short-sighted 413 votes / 7%

I've got my own adjective! (Explained in comments.) 208 votes / 3%

[http://slashdot.org/poll/2577/head-mounted-displays--
sensors...](http://slashdot.org/poll/2577/head-mounted-displays--sensors-like-
google-glass-are)

The 40% positive outlook is still not bad though.

~~~
DanBC
I love the idea of Google Glass and I'd definitely use them if I had them.

But...

> Google Glass only needs to get over its initial days in which it is viewed
> as awkward and then it will be socially acceptable.

People said that about segway and sinclair C5s and etc etc.

I really hope that Google can manage to make Glass work. Lots of other
headmounted displays failed or didn't make it out of very small niches.

~~~
ams6110
I think the segway is a good comparison. It had similar hype ("it will change
the way cities are designed") and who uses them today: nerds, and obese mall
cops.

Unless Glass solves real problems in a way that is compelling to real people,
they will remain nerd toys.

~~~
mikeash
For all the discussion of "cool" and whatever, utility certainly seems key.

We can talk about the Segway's coolness all we want, but it's ultimately not
that important. Why did the Segway never become more than a niche product?
Because it's pretty much useless! It fills a mostly-unwanted niche between
walking and bicycles. Most people can walk. Bicycles are cheap. Given how
little it does, I can't fathom how one would have looked at a pre-production
Segway and thought, wow, I bet these will sell like hotcakes.

Glass is more of a platform than a product right now. The question of what
it's _for_ is still mostly unanswered. Find the killer app for it, and all the
questions of creepiness or uncoolness will melt away. Fail to find anything
useful to do with it, and the lack of coolness will just become an excuse for
the fanboys to use.

------
dror82
This can't be the future... Look how cumbersome the glasses are


I Just Presented as a Finalist at Launch Hackathon: Here's what I learned. - georgebonnr
http://georgebonnr.github.io/blog/2013/11/11/i-just-presented-at-launch-hackathon/

======
racerx
Congratulations - well done, sounds like a great experience.


Rebinding attacks in browsers - cstejerean
http://www.securityfocus.com/columnists/455
======
andrewcooke
couldn't this be ameliorated by forcing dns responses with short ttls to be
persistent for longer periods? how much of an impact would that have on load
balancing strategies? would anything else be affected?


We Are Legion - The Story of the Hacktivists - Documentary [video] - sathishmanohar
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pGYKIRj5_8

======
rsingel
This is a leaked old version. The new cut will be released in theaters and
cheap download ala Louis CK very soon.


Good interview question - huhtenberg

Given that yesterday was a Pi day (03/14), here's a good interview question:

  Write Pi in a hex base

A written test version asks for 3 digits after the dot; in person interview version - for 2.
The question is really good because very few people have experience dealing with fractions in non-decimal base, so it forces them to really work on the answer. It also a very quick way to separate "hackers" from hackers :)
======
ejs
I never understand these types of questions, is that really important to job
function? Maybe ask them to do it in octal too? Or just use a random number as
the base, how about base 47? Will that weed out the slackers?

~~~
bkrausz
I find that interviewers are more interested in the method than the
answer...if you just sit there and say "I was never taught this" you probably
won't get the job. On the other hand, if you stand up, go to the whiteboard,
and start writing things down, while talking them through your train of though
("Well I'm not positive how to do fractions in other bases, but this way makes
sense to me" and then proceed to work out the problem as best as you can) then
you show more motivation and enthusiasm.


Flight/hotel booking REST API - devsri

Is there a REST API available from any travel aggregator (such as travelocity) or hotel/airline, that allows me to do booking via API (or is scraping the only choice)?
======
boolean
Expedia Affiliate Network (EAN) has an API: <http://developer.ean.com/>


Ask HN: What's your consulting rate? - equity

I am looking to get a pulse on the going consulting rate for software engineers in the bay area.  Please post your rate and include languages of competency, years experience, etc.
======
larrykubin
I currently charge 95/hr. Been doing a mix of Python/PHP/JavaScript and know
my way around their associated frameworks and CMSes
(Cake/Django/Flask/Drupal/CodeIgniter). I've done only freelance for 5 years
and have worked in Austin and Portland. Rates are probably higher in SF.

------
gamechangr
Friend (moved to palo alto,part of silicon valley, in Feb of 2011) makes $140
hr for five yrs experience in Ruby/PHP and 2 yr in Python/Ruby on Rails

He claims most engineers make $120-$150 with a couple years experience.

------
samstave
Avg rates I see for everything/everyone is between 100 and 150/hr.


Welcome to OpenBSD [pdf] - fcambus
http://devio.us/~bcallah/rcos2015.pdf
======
MartinMond
> Random PIDs > Eliminates race conditions > Say you have a root daemon that
> forks then the child drops privileges. If you can beat the child you can
> inherit root privileges

Can someone explain this? I don't see what this has to do with the randomness
of pids.

~~~
grkvlt
Something like after the parent forks, the child opens a file called
"/tmp/log.$$" with its PID in the name as root. If you can guess the PID of
the child, you could create a link with that name, pointing at a file of your
choice that is owned by root, such as "/etc/passwd". Then, you need to make
the child do something predictable to that file, such as ensuring that the
user supplied data being logged contains text like "\npwn::0:0::/:/bin/sh\n"
giving you a valid password file entry for "pwn" with no password and root
privileges.

~~~
xorcist
Predictable file names in tmp is considered a security issue pretty much
everywhere (hence mkstemp), so I would guess that's not what they mean.

------
walterbell
Theo's opinion notwithstanding, what's the best virtualization platform to run
OpenBSD?

There's a project to improve AWS/Xen support,
[http://www.joelroberts.org/openbsd/](http://www.joelroberts.org/openbsd/)

~~~
cssmoo
Works fine in VMware ESX and HyperV. Need to run NTP though to combat clock
drift. Not tried it on Xen but it has drivers for virtual NICs and storage
etc.

------
bch
> Proactive security ●64-bit long long time_t (NetBSD technically did it
> first)

The best kind of first. Joking aside -- why is so much OpenBSD advocacy
backhanded like this ? Do the writers not think that OpenBSD can stand on it's
own ?

~~~
dwc
You left off the following bullet point:

* NetBSD technically did it first

* But OpenBSD is the one who engaged with the rest of the software community to fix bugs that were uncovered

Now it doesn't seem so backhanded.

~~~
justincormack
Well I think actually NetBSD just made less noise about it. You can call that
"engaging with the community", and it can be helpful but since NetBSD switched
in 2012 it was not the case that there was no engagement in making software
work if it needed fixing.

~~~
calvin_
The thing is to ask and poke pre-emptively before problems actually occur.

------
BorisMelnik
you are my hero, not just for all the awesome OpenBSD contributions and
dedication but for the fact that you still maintain a GOPHER protocol'd site!

gopher://gopher.anthrobsd.net/

~~~
iso8859-1
do you know what gopher server is in use?

~~~
jethro_tell
If I remember correctly it is The Gophernicus Project.

[http://gopherproxy.meulie.net/gophernicus.org/](http://gopherproxy.meulie.net/gophernicus.org/)
or you can use the overbite extension for firefox.

~~~
BorisMelnik
yes that is one. I remember accessing txt files via gopher on university
systems back in the 90's. It was similar to browsing an FTP directory via a
web browser, with a few more features.

------
legulere
> strlcat() and strlcpy() > \- Solves the problem of unterminated C strings

Handling truncation correctly with those is just as much work as handling
strcat and strcpy correctly. The only difference is that wrong handling of
strcat and strcpy have worse effects usually.

------
kijiki
"OpenBSD's OpenBGPD responsible for 30% of worldwide BGP communication"

Ummm. Citation needed?

~~~
jlgaddis
Yeah, that was my first thought, too.

In all my years in networking, I've ran exactly _one_ instance of OpenBGPD and
that's used simply for real-time updates of (anti-spam) blacklists and
whitelists [0,1].

[0]: [http://bgp-spamd.net/](http://bgp-spamd.net/) [1]:
[http://www.openbsd.org/papers/asiabsdcon2013/phessler-bgp-
sp...](http://www.openbsd.org/papers/asiabsdcon2013/phessler-bgp-spamd-
presentation.pdf)

~~~
zdw
[http://www.openbgpd.org/users.html](http://www.openbgpd.org/users.html)

Also, most large service providers don't tend to talk about their internal
implementations.

Many in the networking field have been indoctrinated in a Cisco-only
philosophy, and then get hired into that monoculture over and over to the
point they don't know about anything else, other than if it's something viewed
as a Cisco competitor.

~~~
jlgaddis
Sorry, I never doubted that there are large organizations that run OpenBGPD --
it's just that I, myself, have never personally encountered one (meaningless,
I know).

I do know that it's used quite often as a route server/reflector at various
IXPs (and I may be standing up an instance to do just that in the near future
as well) as well as a looking glass. I've managed routers from most of the
large manufacturers (Cisco, Juniper, Brocade, HP/H3C, ALU, Mikrotik) and I
took a good hard look at OpenBGPD a while back for a customer project so I am
aware that it is quite feature-rich and capable and I certainly didn't intend
to imply (if it came across that way) that it's not.

Really, the thing that I took issue with was:

 _> OpenBSD's OpenBGPD responsible for 30% of worldwide BGP communication_

It was followed up with:

 _> Correction: 20% of ISPs using OpenBGPD_

That claim may very well be _technically_ correct, but it strikes me as
similar to, e.g., someone claiming that 90% of users on the Internet "use
Linux" simply because their traffic may have {passed through|been directed to}
a {router|server|firewall} that runs Linux.

------
usaif
Very useful, sans the font. Pardon the pun

------
carlesfe
Slightly off topic, but does anybody know why the OpenBSD community has
started using Comic Sans in all their material? Is it some kind of inside
joke?

I don't find it neither good nor wrong, but there must be some reason behind
it.

~~~
ma2rten
There was another discussion about it recently on HN, which linked to this:

[http://www.openbsd.org/papers/bsdcan14-libressl/mgp00025.htm...](http://www.openbsd.org/papers/bsdcan14-libressl/mgp00025.html)

~~~
bcook
lol... weaponizing fonts. Well played.