Introduction

[EMILY] I think a lot of us are already very familiar with your prolific background. I wanted to dig more into your life and things that have impacted you, inspired you to move into this world. When I was doing research for this, I read the foreword of 'The Internet of Money,' which I see you have translated. [ANDREAS] Yes, this is 'Internet del Dinero,' the Spanish translation [of 'The Internet of Money']. [EMILY] We will talk later about all the translations you've been able to get out, which is wonderful.

Obsessions with dismantling and understanding technology

When I was reading the foreword, you [list] a few times in your life where you had obsessions [with technology]. When you were child, it was the obsession with getting your first computer, with [using] Linux for the first time. Then, later down the road, this obsession with Bitcoin. [Looking back], it seems that technology has always been something that really inspired you. Tell more more about your childhood; [take us back in time to] your life as a kid. What was inspiring you within technology to move into [a career in] that world? [ANDREAS] Well, you know how people say 'I got my first computer at' [a certain age]? I got my first electric shock at five [years old]. I was trying to dismantle one of the plugs in our house. I wanted to see what was behind it. Throughout my childhood, I was dismantling things to see how they worked... and then failing to put them back together in working order. I was always fascinated by machines, by technical things. I wanted to understand how things worked. When I was ten years old, my mother -- who was a complete technophobe -- [bought me my first computer. I remember how she once told me that her Hi-Fi system had broken, and was [sending] "incomprehensible messages." [I thought], "It is just a simple Hi-Fi system, how does it do that?' I was [pretty] amazed. She said, "It is just blinking at me, zero colon zero zero. I don't understand what it means." I said, "Mom, that's the clock. It just got unplugged and the [time] reset. You can ignore it. The Hi-Fi still works." She said, "Well, how am I supposed to know that?"

First computer as a kid

So this person, for whom technology was... completely opaque, bought me a computer [when I was] ten years old, a Sinclair ZX81, which was a hobbyist computer that you connected to your TV. Then disappeared for six months. I spent all my time in my room, learning how to program this computer, with no resources [except] the very thin manual over and over again until I learned how to program. That was my first technical obsession. [Since] then, I have had a series of obsessions. A technology will fascinate me so much that I'm lost to the world for a period of time. During these times, [all of the possible ways we could use it] unfolds like a vision in my head. I see 'we could do this and then do this' and 'if other people wanted to use it, they could do this'. Then of course, with great enthusiasm, I run to everyone I know and say, "This will change the world!" And they say, "Have you cleaned your room today? [Laughter] Because [at the time], I was ten years old. This kept happening to me. Nobody would believe me. I got my first modem and said, "We will do everything online!" "Mm-hmm.

Bitcoin as the sixth epiphany; deciding to become an educator

I don't think so, [Andreas]." Bitcoin was my sixth epiphany moment, the sixth time that I became completely obsessed with technology. A couple of the previous [ones], like Linux and the first websites, allowed me to build a whole career. I watched how many of the predictions or visions I had about how this technology would come true. By the time I [found Bitcoin], I had built confidence. When I first understood and grasped what it meant, I was lost to the world for four months. I got completely obsessed. I lost a lot of weight because I stopped eating. There wasn't enough time to eat because I was too busy reading about Bitcoin. When I emerged from that, I thought, 'Okay, I have confidence that this vision I have will be right again.' 'This time I will not stand on the sidelines. I want to be involved in this from the beginning.' Well, not right at the beginning, but soon enough. [EMILY] It was soon enough, absolutely. It seems that your family, your parents were supportive of this. It's interesting that your mother was kind of scared of this technology, but still [gave you] an entry into it. [ANDREAS] I think my parents realized [when I was very young] that whether they approved or not of anything... I did, wouldn't really change what I did. If I was interested in something more than school, I just stopped going [to school]. [Laughter] They found that there wasn't much they could do about that. They accepted my interests. [EMILY] Wonderful.

Growing up in Greece with dictatorship and monetary crises

Well, I think we are all happy today that they allowed you to do that. You were born in London and grew up in Greece. When I speak to people in this space who come from different countries with different issues and problems, [I find] sometimes it allows them to actually understand [something like Bitcoin] more clearly. [They] attach to technology of this nature, where you can potentially be building these open monetary systems. Sometimes it takes being involved in [a monetary crisis], seeing how bad it can be, [to understand its value]. Can you talk to me about growing up in Greece, and how that history affected your understanding? [ANDREAS] It had an enormous effect on me. It is something I find most Americans can't understand. But in many South American countries, it is a much more [familiar] experience of the immediate generation. I was born in a year when Greece had a military dictatorship. I was born in London... because my mother wanted me to have an exit in case that military dictatorship continued to dominate Greece. Nobody knew how long it would go. At the time, the Spanish dictatorship had already been going... for almost twenty years. Fortunately, the dictatorship in Greece was short-lived, but one of my earliest memories was of machine gun fire outside the apartment. The sound of that during the student uprising. Even though the dictatorship was overthrown in 1973, the impact of [fascism lasted] for more than a decade. I remember that in my teen years, there were only four radio stations on the FM bands: the Armed Forces radio, the Greek Navy radio, the Greek Air Force radio, and the Greek public radio. They only played patriotic and nationalist folk music, so I started a pirate radio station with my friends, to play the Billboard Top 40 rock-and-roll. [EMILY] Of course. [Laughter] [ANDREAS] Who wants to listen to patriotic band music? Certainly not any fourteen-year olds I knew. This is the environment that was born in. Greece still had this leftover shadow of fascism that was pervasive in authorities and law enforcement. [It had] a very big impact on the military, on the country. I think [I am in] one of the countries where, when I say these things, you know what I'm talking about. At the same time, we had a very poorly managed economy. I remember the drachma having two radical devaluations in my life, in the '80s. Overnight, the currency would drop 25% to 40%. As a result, import goods would increase in price immediately. Of course, Greece is the country where olive oil [would still have] the same price, but pretty much everything else is imported. It is a tourist-based economy. Everything [became] expensive. I watched money break in my childhood. I saw currency controls. I remember standing with my parents at the bank, participating in the family ritual... of a run on the bank, getting our money out. When that is a family experience with my cousins and uncles, lining up to get their money out of the bank... before they impose currency controls, that leaves an impression on a kid. A lack of respect for authority that hasn't been earned, a distrust of the monetary system and banking... were baked into my childhood. You can imagine, when Bitcoin comes along, that I think obviously this is how we should do it. [EMILY] Yeah, finally. [ANDREAS] Finally. It's strange. It's an experience that I can't share with Americans. They do not understand when I talk about it. But when I come to South America, everybody [says], "Of course." [Laughter] "Been there, done that." Dictatorship? Check. Currency devaluation? Check. Currency controls and a run on the bank? Check. Family buying three cars and two washing machines because that is a [better], stable store value? Check. In the United States, they say, the moment you buy a car and drive it out of the dealership, it drops 50% in value. How much does your currency have to drop in a year for that to be a better investment? [Laughter] That is a unique experience, and yet that is the experience of [much of] the world, not an exception. The American experience is the exception. The Western European experience is the exception. 1.5 billion people [with] stable currency are the exception. The other 6 billion people are the norm. [EMILY] Yes. [Before] I came to the Latin American Bitcoin conference in Mexico City for the first time, I had [been] working in the US and wasn't quite understanding the impact [of this technology]; then I came down to Mexico City and it clicked with me. It made me want to be involved in the space, so I completely echo that [sentiment].

Early days of the internet and fascination with cryptography; university studies in distributed systems, meeting the "giants" of computer science and the cypherpunk movement

Moving through your life. We [talked about] a little bit of your childhood. Then you [went] into the University of London [to] study computer science, data communications, and distributed ledgers. [ANDREAS] Distributed systems. [EMILY] Fast-forward to post-school Andreas... You spent your professional life as a cybersecurity expert, involved with the cypherpunk movement. Tell me more about what intrigued you with that. What made you attach yourself to that ethos? [ANDREAS] [This was] around the late 80s, probably 1988 or 1989. I got my first access to the Internet. I started reading. I accessed the internet through an account that I hijacked from a university professor. So this was not a sign-up with an ISP, [but] hacking into a university [account]. Just to clarify, at the time this was not illegal in Greece because they didn't have a law yet. They didn't know they needed a law yet. [Laughter] Also, I was a minor then, so that helped. My experience of the early internet was Usenet, a bulletin board. Today, the closest [equivalent] would be Reddit. It was a forum where you could have discussions. There were a couple of really important news groups with discussions about cypherpunk philosophy, cryptography, computer science folklore and culture. I started reading and I was fascinated by this idea that you could use mathematics to govern society; that potentially, in the future, we could use the power... of large prime numbers in order to achieve privacy, autonomy, and self-determination. The idea of using a mathematical system to solve societal problems was appealing. With maturity, I know a lot of that is just naiveté, right? It is the disease of computer geeks, where you think you can solve society with technology. It is not entirely true, but some things you can [solve with] technology. I was fascinated by cryptography, that simply by using numbers you could create a system that even the most powerful government in the world, or all of them [put] together, could not break in a trillion years. One of the fun things about cryptography is that you [become accustomed] to people saying [large] numbers, that involve repeating the word "trillion." [Especially] as a kid, that is very exciting. I started reading about all of these cryptographic systems, and then about the people [involved]. When I went to college in London, I started meeting these people and that just blew my mind. I remember being in one of the first conferences in London, on the topic of [internet] freedom and privacy. This was probably 1992 or 1993. John Gilmore, Mitch Kapor, John Perry Barlow, and Phil Zimmermann were doing presentations. If you know anything about cryptography and security, those names are legendary. John Perry Barlow, Kapor, and Gilmore announced the formation of the Electronic Frontier Foundation. I [asked], "Can I sign up?" As a sixteen or seventeen year old kid, I had no idea [at the time]. If you are interested, the EFF is an organization for freedom and civil liberties on the internet. I met Phil Zimmerman, [the creator] of PGP, in 1995 and I asked him to sign my PGP key. I lost access to that key, but it was really cool because my key had [top-level] trust on every installation of PGP, because it was signed by Phil Zimmermann. I gradually found myself surrounded by these giants of computer science, security, cryptography... and the early cypherpunk movement. I was just a kid, giddy with excitement and anticipation.

Decision to get off the sidelines and do something meaningful

When I got into Bitcoin, [I decided] this time I [wouldn't] be the kid watching from behind; I can do something meaningful in this space. I [transferred] that early enthusiasm and applied it here.

What it feels like to have fans; don't expect your heroes to be perfect

[EMILY] Hearing you talk about feeling giddy to meet these people... Does it feel strange or exciting to you, when you embody that for a lot of people that meet you as well? You [are] this wonderful educator and a lot of people I know talk about meeting you, how special it is to them. Do you think about that? [ANDREAS] It is completely weird. It is extremely weird. For one thing, you know the saying "never meet your heroes." I realized, after meeting a lot of the people in the computer security industry that I admired, that many of them were very flawed individuals. When you meet your heroes, the reality of [them as] an actual person with weird habits and mannerisms, and sometimes [being] rude to other people... I have often been disappointed by meeting people I admired, discovering they are very rude to people around them, and thinking, 'I never want to do that.' But when people are excited to meet someone, it is important to always remember that... behind whatever achievement or reputation someone has, there is always just a person [there], a person who is flawed, vulnerable, quirky, and makes mistakes sometimes. That's okay. There is nothing special.

Early career in information security and being self-employed; discovering Bitcoin via Slashdot, binge reading code and research

[EMILY] I wanted to know... We have gone through a bit of the history of your life. I want to move forward. You've touched on this, but do you remember where you were [when you discovered Bitcoin]? Do you remember the first article? It seems like it was an "aha!" moment. What was your life like at the time? Can you talk to us more about why it felt so important to you? [ANDREAS] Yes. I've been self-employed my entire life. I have worked for a company or boss for a total of maybe 18 months. It did not work. I'm not good employee material and found it frustrating, so I have been self-employed [almost] all my life. [Before finding] Bitcoin, I founded an analyst / research company. I worked [on] that for six years. Then I decided to leave because it wasn't exciting to me anymore. I [started] freelancing work in information security, supporting various startups in the San Francisco area. [I was] trying to find the next thing, [but] not quite sure what it would be. This [was] in 2012. I remember sitting in my living room in San Francisco, laptop on my knees, just reading and browsing things. I came across an article in Slashdot, [which] you may know. It is a geeky site and not very prominent anymore. I read an article about Bitcoin, and it had a link to the Bitcoin whitepaper. I remember [seeing] something about Bitcoin previously, in relation to its use for gambling sites. At the time, it had seemed very uninteresting to me, like someone had done another E-gold or Liberty Dollar. [Just] gambling casino money. What's the big deal? It was not interesting. This time, I saw the link to the whitepaper. I thought, 'This is the second time I've heard about this Bitcoin thing. Let me [read] the paper.' I start reading the whitepaper. [When I am] about one page in, I think, 'Oh shit. This is decentralized.' I keep reading. By the time I have finished the whitepaper, I realize this is not [just] a currency. This is a decentralized or distributed network. I understood the Byzantine generals' problem and fault tolerance because I had studied distributed systems. I also understood the information security implications. It struck me as a very elegant way to solve that problem of consensus and coordination. 'Wow, if this could work... I mean, I'm sure it [won't], but if it did, this would be- I want to find out if it works.' I immediately go to the source code and start reading the C++. I can't understand the flow of it. I [was] trying to understand how consensus emerges from reading the Bitcoin software. It is very difficult. [Has] anybody here tried to read Bitcoin Core software and understand how consensus works? Five people. It is not easy. [I thought I could] search for [the] 21 million [supply cap], and see it defined in the code. [But] it is not defined [in the code]. It is an emergent property from dividing [the block reward in half]... every 210,000 blocks [or approximately four years]. If you do the math, it ends up being 20.99999998 million bitcoin, but [that] is nowhere in the code.

Realizing how Bitcoin consensus worked

Then you realise that [consensus is not at any one place] in the code. That is fascinating. I made another metaphor that immediately clicked. When neuroscientists study the brain, trying to find consciousness, it is not anywhere but everywhere. I realized that the reason I'm not finding consensus in the code is because consensus isn't in the code. It's an emergent property. I just went completely [head-over-heels], reading, writing, and exploring. I'm getting emotional -- over code! [Applause] Yeah, that was my reaction in that moment. I was so incredibly overwhelmed.

Firing clients to focus on Bitcoin; first public speaking appearance at a Bitcoin conference in 2013; meeting the best programmers in the world and choosing speciality

I remember that day. I didn't sleep. Eighteen hours later, I cancelled all of my other projects. I [thought], 'This is it.' 'This is what I'm doing.' I called all my clients and said, "Thank you very much for your business." "It has been a pleasure working with you, [but] I am doing something else now. Bye!" By the way, if you're interested in being self-employed, that moment is the essence of being self-employed: being able to fire clients. I fired all of my clients in thirty minutes. [Laughter] Then I became unemployed, which is another stage of being self-employed. [Laughter] I decided to dedicate my attention to [Bitcoin]. I started working on it. For the next four months, all I did is: wake up, read, write code, read, write code, go to sleep for six hours. I lost twenty-six pounds on the extremely inadvisable Bitcoin fascination diet. [Laughter] If you watch one of my first videos, the one I did in May of 2013, at the Bitcoin conference in San Jose, I'm wearing a suit and that was the last time I wore a suit in Bitcoin. I am floating in it because I'm so skinny, at thirty pounds less than what I weigh now. I should probably go on that diet again. [Laughter] I just got into this [routine when I discovered it]. A lot of people ask me why I got into public speaking. When I started understanding how Bitcoin worked, I looked at the people who were working on it. I think there are a couple of core developers and legendary cypherpunks in the audience here. I don't know if you are here at the moment, but Adam Back and Luke Dashjr are somewhere here. They are certainly at this conference. These people were already working on cryptography in general, or on Bitcoin specifically, for years. I took a look around at the programmers in that [space], and I suddenly realized that I was mediocre. If I had just looked at myself as a programmer on a worldwide scale, I am an okay programmer. I can program in more than a dozen programming languages. I have been programming for 35 years. I do it as a hobby. I love it. It is something I'm pretty good at. But on a Bitcoin scale, I'm not even in the bottom 30%. The people programming for the core protocol... are some of the best mathematicians, cryptographers, and coders in the world. World-class. [It felt like coming] straight out of a high school baseball team, thinking you are the best, and then someone drops you right in the middle of a professional ball game. You think, 'Uh-oh.' Then I [asked], 'Okay, what can I bring to the table?' I was trying to figure it out and thought, 'I can do public speaking and education.' That is something I can do, [while] others in the space can't do it as well as I can. I decided not to code and instead focus on teaching. [EMILY] Wonderful. We are running pretty short on time, but I wanted to ask one last question. Also, a little shout out about your new book 'Mastering Ethereum,' which [just came out] for sale on Amazon. [ANDREAS] It is shipping this week. [EMILY] Wonderful.

Experience in educating people about open blockchains; translating to foreign languages; importance of Spanish language content

Go and get it, guys. My last [question] has to do with you being an educator. There is a lot of talk within the industry about how sometimes it can be very polarising, [while] we're trying to build the system where everyone can be involved and included. There are factions that alienate certain new people who [try to] come in. Do you feel, as an educator, that you're able to... reach people of all backgrounds and technological competencies? Does that give you a lot of energy? It seems like it is a big passion of yours, and allows you to step outside [the usual realms]. [ANDREAS] That drives my educational mission, which is really simple: educate as many people... in as many countries and languages, as possible, about this technology and its social implications. When I say "this technology," I am not talking just about Bitcoin. I look at the whole ecosystem of open, decentralized blockchains and what they can do together. Bitcoin is the foundational rock, absolutely. But there is more and [they are] all playing together. For me, 2018 was the the year of Spanish. I am trying to learn Spanish myself. We have published all of my books in Spanish now. 'Internet del Dinero' came out at the [start] of the year. We are trying to make distribution deals with local publishers and printers in South and Central America. One of the problems is: yes, I can get this [book] printed by Amazon for a small cost, but I can't get a distributor; you can't order from Amazon and have it ship to Argentina. It will spend seven months in customs and cost more than $30 per book. We need to print it locally... and distribute at a price that can work for South America. We are trying to do that now. I have about 350 videos on my YouTube channel; more than 120 have been translated into Spanish. We have a group of volunteers who are doing translations all the time. 'Mastering Bitcoin' and 'Mastering Ethereum' are being translated as we speak. Spanish is the number one language I'm targeting. To me, the application of this technology in Central and South America is probably the most important market. One of the big deficits we have in the space is, the majority of the information is in English. That isn't helpful. If we want to just get the people who already have literacy, numeracy, English speaking skill, and an understanding of technology, they [are more likely] to find it on their own. They don't need any help. The people who really need this, don't speak English well. They don't have technical expertise. If we [will] succeed in markets like remittances, for immigrants sending money home from all over the world, we need to [publish information] in Spanish. [EMILY] Wonderful. Thank you, Andreas. [ANDREAS] Thank you so much for this opportunity. [Applause] [ORGANISER] Gracias, Andreas.